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Eight years ago, you could use a CGM but you couldn't share the data. Dexcom transmitters didn't connect to phones and parents and caregivers couldn't Follow anyone. That started to change - and change quickly - in 2013. That's when John Costik posted a photo on Twitter. That photo showed John's laptop, at home, monitoring his son Evan's blood sugar while Evan was miles away, at daycare. John soon linked up with others who were also working on improving existing diabetes tech. That was the start of Nightscout and a host of other "We are not waiting" improvements, many of which are now integrated into commercial offerings. This interview with John is from October of 2015. He has since left his job as a supermarket software engineer and is currently the director of digital product development at Beta Bionics. That's the company founded by Ed Damiano that's developing the iLet insulin pump. Check out Stacey's book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! -----   Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcription Below   Stacey Simms  0:00 This episode of Diabetes Connections is brought to you by inside the breakthrough, a new history of science podcast full of did you know stuff.   Announcer  0:13 This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms.   Stacey Simms  0:19 Welcome to a classic episode of Diabetes Connections. As always, though, we aim to educate and inspire about diabetes with a focus on people who use insulin. These classic episodes are something new this year, we are bringing back some interviews that are from the very first year of year and a half of the show. We started in 2015, coming up on six years. So there's a lot of episodes that newer listeners haven't heard. And it's kind of fun to go back and give some perspective. I like revisiting. I'm emailing everybody that was featured. If they're getting a classic episode, I'm sending them a text message or a DM or email or you know, I'm just getting in touch with them to say anything you want to share, you know, any new stuff. And it's been really fun to reconnect with some of those previous guests. I’ll be honest with you, I have really hesitated about bringing by older tech type episodes into this run of classics. We did a lot of interviews, like we do now with the pump companies and technology and things like that. And I think it could just be kind of confusing if you're a newer listener, or if you know, you put a classic episode on and you're thinking it's new. But I mean, let's say I run an episode from 2015, when Dexcom, for example, is talking about an upcoming piece of technology that now in 2021, is outdated or never happened. So I'm purposefully avoiding most of those interviews. If you're interested, though, there's a great search box. I'm really proud of the website. It's very robust, you can go and search the 372 episodes that we have put index calm, see how its evolved over time, put in animists and find out what happened, you know, that kind of stuff. Some of those types of interviews, though, especially from the Do It Yourself community are, in my opinion, very valuable and very much worth revisiting. So that is the topic for this week. All right, come with me now let us go back to the olden days of diabetes back before 2013. Now I know most of you that's not the olden days for real. But you think about what has changed since then. Before 2013. It was a time where continuous glucose monitors were used. They were around we were at the time using I want to say the g4 Platinum pediatric. But you know, you could use it, you had a nifty little receiver, but you could not share the data. And it I don't believe in 2013 it was on anybody's phone, you definitely couldn't share. Then we saw the tweet. I've been on Twitter since 2008, thanks to my radio days, but I can't say that I was following john Costik at this time, but he was retweeted by somebody else I knew. And I saw this amazing thing. It was a dad watching his young son's blood sugar. On the dad's laptop. The kid was in daycare, the dad was at home, they were across town from each other in 2013. I started following that dad, john Costik. And of course, I was far from the only one john linked up with others who were also working on improving existing diabetes technology. And all of that was really the start of nightscout and a host of other we are not waiting type improvements, many of which are now integrated into commercial offerings. We are going to revisit that time with john Costik in just a moment and catch up on what he's doing now. But first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by inside the breakthrough on the surface. This podcast is a collection of fun, entertaining and even surprising stories from the history of science. But host Dan riskin digs deeper and he really does entertained while drawing connections between these stories and the challenges faced by modern day medical researchers. The latest episode it was just released a couple of days ago. It is wild Dan explains why it took a dozen people 200 years to discover and then undiscovered a planet. I love this podcast. I'm so glad to partner with them. You can search for inside the breakthrough anywhere you listen to audio wherever you found this podcast and if you are listening through the website or social media, click on Diabetes, Connections COMM And you'll see the insight the breakthrough logo. By the way, good time to remind you this podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. A couple of things to know before we jump into the interview, I did reach out to john Costik of course, as I mentioned, and he said let's let folks know I'm hard at work on the islet and its digital products. He is currently the Director of digital product development at beta bionics. He would love that and he says hope you're doing well Stacey and if you are not familiar in the islet is the product from Ed Damiano. We've had him on the show a couple of times beta bionics is the company that is now developing it The islet is finishing some clinical trials this year and should be submitted to the FDA. Pretty soon I am speaking to the folks at beta bionics about coming on the show and giving us an update. So we will work on that as well. But also remember, this is from the fall of 2015, there are going to be dated references. I just want to kind of keep that in your brain. Because while it's fascinating to take a look back, you have to keep in mind as you listen, this is nearly six years ago, but I gotta tell you, I'm just as excited listening back to this interview as I was when I first saw that tweet, John Costik. I am thrilled to have you as my guest this week. Welcome to Diabetes Connections.   John Costik  5:41 Oh, thank you. so thrilled to be here.   Stacey Simms  5:43 Thank you very much. Let's talk about how this all started. Your son was diagnosed in 2012. He was four. But unlike a lot of people who have children diagnosed at any age, you had more technical knowledge than a lot of us. Can you take us through first, you know your diagnosis story, what happened to lead you to find out that your son have diabetes? And then you know, what made you think to look at the equipment and think well, this isn't good enough.   John Costik  6:11 Right? So it was late summer, end of August 2012. And Evan was showing sort of those classic signs that now we know are classic signs, right that he was thirsty all the time peeing all the time and just, you know, little get more lethargic as the day went on. And the 24th was a Friday and my wife Laura went over to pick them up from daycare surprise him with an early lunch. And when she got there that the instructor said, He's so thirsty, he's crying. So she called me and I was out for a run on the canal path. And I remember, she told me what was going on. I said, That's not good. And, you know, he's been really thirsty and really sweaty. past couple days, let's I said just, you know, both of our guts, were telling us, let's get into the doctor. So she called our primary care. And on like most appointments, where they're like, Well, yeah, we'll see you in a couple days, they were really quick to say, Okay, come in, at one o'clock, then, you know, so like a one hour delay from the time they called. So little did we know they I mean, they knew pretty much right away what it was. So as soon as they got there, of course, he had to go to the bathroom. So they did urine check. And he was clearly spilling sugars than they needed to finger check. And he maxed it out. And they basically said, we're gonna call the hospital, you get in the car and just go to the ER, we'll tell them. You're on your way.   Stacey Simms  7:42 Did you know anything about diabetes at that point?   John Costik  7:45 No, no. And this was Laura was at the doctor. So she called me I was at work at this point. And it was just like, getting hit in the head basically. And yeah, my, my knowledge of diabetes was very limited, much some family members that were type two, and I knew there was no type one and type two, and one was curable, one wasn't. And that was mostly because growing up my mother, my mother, she still is a nurse, but she's retired. But she was the school nurse. And there were a couple kids with type one. And I remember just hearing stories of her having to, you know, go to people's homes to pick up their insulin for them if they forgot it. So understanding that type one was distinctly different, I at least knew that much. But the next three days at the hospital, obviously, they put us through the type one boot camp, and send you on your way, basically with vials of insulin, and, in our case, humalog pen, and we had to sort of figure it out from there. Yeah, they gave us the general guidelines for how much insulin he may or may not need, how much lantis to give him. And we were on our way.   Stacey Simms  8:53 Now, it seems like you started on a continuous glucose monitor pretty quickly, how soon after you got home? Did you start thinking about that?   John Costik  9:00 So it was mentioned to us while we were at the hospital by the endocrinologist that diagnosed HIV. And at the time was the Dexcom. Seven, and the I think it was still the Medtronic soft sensor at that point. So those were the only two that were shown to us. And he said, okay, it's a lot of information up front. So we actually went with shots and did a lot of finger checking, initially. But one of the one of the things we recognized real quickly, was the ability to to log this data and communicate this data was sort of hampered you know, if the nurse was writing things down in a log book that didn't inform Laura and I how Evan was doing during the day. So the first thing I did was set up a website for logging, you know, nutritional data, finger checks and how much insulin we were giving him. So that was within probably a week after diagnosis had some semblance of that. And that was to prepare him for going back to daycare. So we could all stay in the loop. So that system would send Lauren an email, a text message whenever a treatment was entered.   Stacey Simms  10:11 Alright, so then a few months later, though, you decided to go with the Dexcom. g4.   John Costik  10:15 Yeah, we started looking around, so around November when I got approved. So I immediately signed up for all the diabetes technology, news letters and everything I could and started, you know, as, as my mind kind of settled down from the diagnosis. You know, I started looking to see what can we use to keep him safer, healthier, both in the short term and long term. And the g4 was approved, I believe it was November in that ballpark of 2012. So I began the process almost immediately to get that it took a while to get it through insurance. Because they actually like to see hypoglycemia before they'll give you tools to avoid it.   Stacey Simms  10:52 I know. And if you do, too well, they want they might take it away. That's the craziest part.   John Costik  10:56 No, no, your son's still healthy doesn't need the thing that's keeping him healthy. Yeah. So. So unfortunately, or, you know, he did have a low in January, that basically put us over the edge. Then they approved it, and we had it in, you know, the second or third week of February 2013. And that's when we began using that. And does that mean immediately it was sort of a revelation to have this second order data, this trend data along with the blood sugar, just so to know directionally where he's going. And you know, what's happening in those periods that we were blind to before. So immediately after meals, we'd see these big spikes that come right down. But, you know, got our mind spinning on, what can we do to improve that? And at the same time, when we sent him to school, is there any way for us to have continued access to the CGM data?   Stacey Simms  11:52 Now you both you and your wife both have backgrounds in engineering? Correct. And so this was something that you looked at, and what did you think of the system because somebody like me, you know, I was a communications major in college, I've worked in broadcasting my whole life. I looked at the CGM. And I thought, Wow, this is so great. How could it get any better? You looked at and thought this is the dumbest device in terms of talking to anything else?   John Costik  12:14 Right, but but I understood the position that everything sort of has, has to go through that growing cycle. So I understood that. So I also my wife worked at an FDA regulated company. So we had some idea that putting a medical device online and presenting that data to people is more daunting for the commercial entity than it would be for us as individuals to just extend it. So we I mean, we were never, I never really railed against Dexcom. In at the time, I think they had sort of shown off some semblance of share, or there'd been some patents that came along that indicated that they were clearly moving towards remote monitoring at some point. But it wasn't something I was going to wait for. Right. So I have the CGM. Now this great device, I have a laptop that can talk to it. And I know, I can take that data off and send it to a cloud service. Or, in our case, we just started with a simple Google spreadsheet that we sent the data to. And then I wrote an iPhone app that pulled that data down and your web app, so the school could just see, you know, his current blood sugar and trend. So we integrated that with with our care portal website. And that was powered by a laptop top load. So initially, I just used a repurposed Dexcom zone, what I call a DLL, linking library dynamic linking library. So that's basically just a program that allows you to interface programmatically with the receiver. So I just repurposed that wrote a fairly simple Windows application to just pull that data every five minutes, and then upload it to that. Like I said, that Google spreadsheet.   Stacey Simms  14:02 Okay, so I'm just curious, was it hard for you to do that? Did it take you a long time? Or did you sit down and tap the tap tap? You know, you're done. You got it?   John Costik  14:10 It wasn't, wasn't challenge. So my background in software, I it was relatively recent background, but it was all focused around windows code, and specifically writing these sorts of libraries for other hardware devices. So I understood if I took their library and put it into what what I would call, you know, a software project, that I wouldn't be able to see exactly the interfaces that could pull that data into my own application. So it really only took probably an hour or two, to write to write the basic windows uploader.   Stacey Simms  14:46 And then you put this picture on Twitter. I don't know how long after that said, Look at what we're doing. Isn't that interesting? And did you expect the reaction that you got which was basically jaws dropping around the country, saying how Do I do that?   John Costik  15:01 Yeah, that's, I took some pictures of the windows one initially. And that didn't get a ton of attention. And when when I started going after a truly ambulatory like a mobile solution, that is what really drew people in. So I knew Evan was going to kindergarten, I wanted him to be able to remotely monitor, monitor, monitor, no matter where he was, was, he was on the bus, in class moving around, so I knew, you know, even a really small laptop wouldn't cut, it just wouldn't be convenient for him. But if I could get a small cell phone, smartphone and do that, great. So I started in Android was really the only choice they make much easier to communicate with USB devices and other accessories. So I started working on that, beginning of May, in about a week or two into may, I had sort of unraveled how Dexcom was communicating with the device and, and what that communication looked like and how to interpret that, and then send it along to to a web service to a cloud service. So those tweets got people's attention. And I think I chimed in on on a bulletin board somewhere. And that's when Wayne Desborough reached out and said, Hey, I'd really like to do the same thing for my son, he's his room is too far for the receiver to be in our room and reach him. So we'd like to do to build a remote monitoring system.   Stacey Simms  16:36 Okay, so let me stop you there and tell me if this is all correct. Lane despereaux. Now with Bigfoot biomedical, yep. He has an engineering background as well, I think you work for Medtronic for a while, but he had designed his own home display system. He He's the guy who came up with the nightscout name, right. But he didn't connect it to the internet.   John Costik  16:56 Now, he, he did so ln really took my uploader and created that open source nightscout back end. So the the website you see today is is an evolution of his original design, and uses the same architecture. So a Mongo database, and a Node JS application sitting on a web server somewhere, and allowing people to view you know, their data or their loved ones data. Okay, so that that core was was Lane's work. And later, he brought on Ross nailer, software engineer, and they sort of refined that and got it to that point where, where it could could go live. So for my part, they, they took my uploader code, you know, I gave that to them. And I took their chart code, and put that into, into our home system. And that's sort of where it took off. So in the middle of the summer, I started using the Pebble watch, because I my whole goal this whole time was just how simple can I make this? How glanceable and easy can I make this for everybody involved, because I don't want to stare at the chart all day at work, I just want to know when something's up, I want to go on my day, but know that this system will tap me on the shoulder when it needs to. So Pebble watch was was a good way to do that. Because you can make it vibrate and do all sorts of things to get your attention.   Stacey Simms  18:25 Okay, so now you've got it on your Pebble watch laying despereaux and other people that you've mentioned, are coming up with their own additions. When did what we now recognize as nightscout? When did that all come into play? Was it a few weeks or months after you all kind of shared your codes?   John Costik  18:45 So I think lane started using that name fairly early on. And we all met Finally, actually, Lane was in Rochester, New York for a sailing competition that I believe he won at the end of August 2013. So he actually was at our house for Evans first diversity. And that was a great time when he and I got talking about, you know, everything, right? Very, just an amazing individual really inspired me and opened my eyes to like, Look, there's a lot of people trying to do this. And right now, between the two of us, we have all the components to make it happen. So it was very inspiring, because up until then, I mean, I was a software engineer at a supermarket. Right? Yeah, that wasn't something I'd considered. You know, I lived in a small town. I never really looked beyond that. I liked my simple life. And part of my response to Evans diabetes was I want my simple life back. So these were the tools I wanted to build that I needed to take it back. Right. Yeah. But now seeing this really large unmet need across the entire, you know, population of people with diabetes. He's in there and their loved ones woke me up to that. And then in November, I went to the data exchange, which is hosted by tide pool and diabetes mine. And then diabetes, mine has their Innovation Summit the same, you know, in that same couple days cycle. And that really sort of sealed the deal for me to see what type who was doing, starts trying to integrate all this data. And I'm like, wow, okay, this is really happening. So I can either join in, or, or not, right, and it just seemed like an obvious thing to, you know, pitch in and see what we could do. So, at that point, it was really just a matter of refining that code, to a certain point where other people could make it work. And personally, I didn't think it would ever grow beyond, you know, a sort of core really technically savvy group of people that could set up their web server set up the cloud service, right, and compile a Java application for their Android phone.   Stacey Simms  21:04 Well, that's what's what's remarkable about this whole movement is that, you know, as you say, this core of people, is making it all available to people who have no real technical knowledge, who are completely intimidated by the whole thing, but want access to this information to the point where they're willing to get in a Facebook group and say, Hey, can you help me? And then people do it, people help. And it's been really remarkable to see how it's grown and how people like you are not just sharing your code, but sharing time to set up all of these systems. When you look back now. I mean, can you imagine that? There's something like 14,000 people in the CGM in the cloud Facebook group. I know not everybody's using the system. But they're they're looking at this stuff. Did you think I would get this big?   John Costik  21:50 No, no, not Not a clue. I mean, Laura and I, we had some inkling that what we built was awesome. Because it really enabled Evan to have as close to like that standard school kindergarten experience, as we could have ever imagined after his diagnosis, right? Oh, he had to carry, you know, a little bag around, but he would have had to anyway, right, he'd always need his glucagon and glucose and finger checker. So it wasn't too much more of a burden to put a cell phone and and the the CGM monitor in their hand. Good. Yeah. So just enabled him and we worked with the school nurse, and we refined, you know, our web application and our care portal, to really be something that that she was comfortable using. And something you know, that that informed us, you know, in real time of what was going on in school. So it's really just a nice experience. And again, like, like the daycare experience we've had an amazing experience with, with the Lavanya School District, the nurse in particular, she's just a wonderful person just wants everyone to be happy and healthy, and every kid in that school, so she's, she's like Laura nine. Now. She just she knows his diabetes really well, because she can just glance at and she gets a really good sense for what's going on in his day and how he's feeling and how that will impact his blood sugar. And there's almost never an occasion where we have to chime in or even text her to say, Hey, can you give him a grammar to, you know, and if we do do that she's already on her way down, are already calling down to make it happen. So it's just it's just been an amazing thing for him and for us, and it's been wonderful.   Stacey Simms  23:34 How's he doing these days? He's in second grade now.   John Costik  23:37 Yeah, second, he's doing a good. So it's, it's nice with the share receiver, we can use the Bluetooth connection so that that Reagan's gotten smaller and simpler for you know, it's wireless now. So we really can get his, you know, physical burden of the devices to a minimum at this point. It's also improved outcomes tremendously is a one C is great, you know, his standard deviation is time and range, all these things improve by having this sort of, always on and easy access to, to all this diabetes data.   Stacey Simms  24:13 And you mentioned the Dexcom share, we should note that Dexcom share Medtronic has is coming out with a system that is similar, where instead of doing it yourself, they're setting it up for you. But that and I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly, but there are still features that you all have set up and that the nightscout folks have set up that are not included in the share, is that correct?   John Costik  24:36 The main missing feature that people really enjoy, is that what folks refer to as raw data. So the ability to see some data during either a restart or a warm up period, or during the dreaded triple question marks. You know, there's there's some visibility data, you're not totally blacked out from that data with nightscout. Whereas, as the standard Dexcom, system will do that.   Stacey Simms  25:11 Let me turn this around for just a moment and play devil's advocate. While many people, obviously 1000s of people use nightscout, and are excited about the Dexcom, share, there are a lot of people who have type 1 diabetes, I'm going to put teenagers in this category, probably a lot of them who feel as though this is a bit overbearing, and who feel as though there needs to come a time when you know, parents, or others, you know, maybe don't have access to their numbers, or that this creates a situation where there's just so much hovering. Now, it's difficult for me to ask you about that, because you're doing this for your family, you didn't do this for everybody else. What's your take on that? And even still pretty little, but what's your take on   John Costik  25:57 that? My take is always in law. And I've always said, you have to you have to find the systems and build your own system to an extent, you know, whether you're selecting devices, or features on those devices, that that suits you, in that time in that context of I have a teenager with diabetes, I have a young child with diabetes. So if you have a teenager that is very trustworthy, and manages their diabetes really well, you know, maybe you're, you're not going to look at that remote monitoring, it's an essential piece. Right. And for folks that may be worried more about their teenagers. I mean, at some point, you you, you do have to stand up and say like, Look, I'm I'm your parent, hovering or not, I want to keep you safe and alive. And I think there probably is a balance that you have to find with the individual child. Right? So if they feel it's really invasive. You How can we make the system less invasive, maybe they don't always have an always on access, but they get alerted to you know, impending hypoglycemia? Right. So there's always ways that since it's an open source system, people could take the system and, and really fine tune it to their particular needs. And for us, with epanet his age, it's less about hovering, and more about actually giving him more freedom. Because us, knowing what his blood sugar is allows him to just be a kid. Right? And it's, we don't he doesn't get bothered nearly as much as he would if we didn't have it. So so there is that sort of aspect that I think gets overlooked, you don't realize that it actually enables more freedom, in most cases?   Stacey Simms  27:45 I think that is a great point. Because it's a parenting question, right? It's not a technical question. The system exists, and it's great. And how you use it is up to you I've shared before I have never used nightscout. It's not something that I first when it first came out, I looked at that and said, we'll break that in about three seconds, if we can even get it set up. It's just not us. And when shear came out, I was one of the people who got the cradle and use it overnight, loved it and never really felt like I needed to get an upgrade because my son is at a point where he's at a terrific school. He's in fifth grade. And I did not feel that I needed to remote monitor because he's at an age. And listen, I can get criticized for this. Or I think it's better for him to make some mistakes, in what I know, after all these years is an incredibly safe and supportive environment. But I got the share receiver. And I use it, as you said, finding it gives him more freedom. There's a tradition in my town, where the fifth graders walk from school on Friday afternoons to our little town and are allowed for like two hours the town tolerates them running around, going to the soda shop, yes, we have a soda shop, going to the green going to the library on their own. And I didn't want him doing that, without at the very least a way to contact me. And we have both found that having the share system. And he only really takes a cell phone to school on Friday so I can see it. He doesn't even need to check in. I know what's going on. I'm not too worried about it. We text about well, what are you going to eat? And how are we going to deal with that. But it's made it so much easier. So as somebody who doesn't remote monitor on a regular basis, that little tool has given him freedom if he was two years old. I mean, my son's diagnosed before he was two, would I feel differently? Probably. But it's it is I think it's more a parenting question than a technical question. So maybe it wasn't fair to ask. You   John Costik  29:36 know, I think it's fine because ultimately I mean, I'm, I'm a parent, there's a lot of all this came out of what I felt were our needs as a family. Definitely one of our, you know, one of our family members safe and happy and to improve the quality of life at all. It does come down to how people you use the tool. It can be very invasive, if you're a parent that is constantly paying that kid to do so. Right So the technology can enable hovering as much as reduce it, I think,   Stacey Simms  30:06 yeah. And ask me again in middle school and ask me again in high school. So you know, these things changes as the kids change, right. And as the setup changes, hey, you also share your information. With some recent guests of mine, I talked to Dana and Scott from the open APS project that do it yourself pancreas system, and they're basically working on the you're operating an artificial pancreas system that Dana has worn for almost two years. Now they close the loop last year, what do you think is going to happen next? What do you look at in technology? And say, yeah, that's going to happen? And I'm going to have that forever? And   John Costik  30:42 that's a good question. So obviously, you know, I want us all to be put out of business, just cure it. Exactly. But if if, if there's a functional cure, whether it's bigfoots product, or Dr. damianos product, or somebody else, you know, whether it's encapsulated islet cells, you know, via site, if they figure it out, and are able to do an implant that reduces the insulin need, significantly, if not eliminated, those those are the sort of things that that make me excited, and I look forward to those and, and Scott, and Dana very clearly showed, like, Look, you need to get this AP stuff rolling, because it can be tremendously beneficial to people with diabetes, right? It reduces their burden makes them much healthier keeps their blood sugar's in range, with a much higher percentage, right? Yeah. So early on, they were I think it was Scott reached out to me saw a couple tweets, he tweeted back and said, hey, how can I get this? So he was one of the folks that I shared the uploader code with early, you know, before it was publicly available for it was open source. You know, I knew you looked into his background, and we talked and it was very clearly the software wise, he was savvy. And so I was happy to share that with with him. And Jason calibres was another person that I gave the uploader to earlier. And Jason Adams, who founded the Facebook group, was another one of these folks that early on, had really reached out to me and got me rolling.   Stacey Simms  32:15 Oh, let me interrupt you here. Why not? Why not? Make it more proprietary? I mean, why? Why make it so easily available? When, obviously, people were clamoring for this and probably would have paid you for it? I feel like I should be twirling my mustache. When I asked you that question.   John Costik  32:32 That was a question. We got a lot, actually. So when people saw our system, even before we made it open source, they said, Oh, that's a million dollar idea. I said, Yeah, but it's not really my idea. Right? Everybody's had this idea. Scott hanselman had the idea 15 years ago, you know, so people we've very smart people know that better, we can access our data, the healthier we're going to be. So this was just, I just happened to be in the right time and right place. And to be honest, I'm not particularly entrepreneurial. So I wasn't super motivated to go out and start my own company and raise funds to get this done and dig my heels in with regulatory issues. You know, it just, again, it was it was me trying to get our simple life back and starting a business around it was would have been a huge risk. And that's something that I was particularly interested in doing.   Stacey Simms  33:22 Are you happy with how it turned out?   John Costik  33:24 Yeah, yeah. I mean, if I had tried to commercialize it, how many people would be using it? Maybe not? Right, maybe it would have fizzled, and people would still perhaps be waiting for the G phi or the share. If if that group hadn't come up and sort of opened the FDA his eyes to that need. So yeah, I think it's, at this point, the best possible outcome I could have imagined and the appreciation from folks, and I don't deserve nearly any that I get, you know, it was a small part of the story. It just happened to be, you know, early on, but just that outpouring of gratitude, I mean, no one could have paid me enough to counter that.   Stacey Simms  34:05 And you are no longer doing software for Wegmans. Which is is that correctly, first of all, which is a fantastic supermarket up in upstate New York and across really the lot of the Northeast that people are familiar with, and I used to shop there all the time when I lived in New York, but you're not there anymore. What are you doing?   John Costik  34:22 So I've moved over to the University of Rochester Medical Center. So I was looking for something in health care, because I knew, you know, that's kind of where my heart was at this point was really to help find similar needs throughout health care. So I didn't want to just do type 1 diabetes work. I really wanted to dig in and see see what else we could do. Across the wide spectrum of, of conditions and, and whatnot. So there was a position open. At the University of Rochester Medical Center, a new group called the Center for Clinical innovation. I came in and got talking with, with the leaders of the group, this surgeon, Dr. Dave Minton. And then Chris de Silva. Were the primary folks in the group. And we kind of hit it off. And I showed him what I built for Evan. And they said, Hey, I think you'd be a perfect fit for our group. And the rest is sort of history. So I left Wegmans at the beginning of June and have been here and working on software that's very patient centric. And   Stacey Simms  35:35 I'm not just for diabetes,   John Costik  35:37 no, not just for diabetes. So the main piece of software that our group has written, will go out to all the clinics, or potentially all the clinics, they'd have to opt in to all the clinics at the University of Rochester Medical Center. So the entire health system, which is a big system, so we've built a tool that can aid all the clinics in gathering and interpreting patient reported outcome data. So that's, that's been a big push. And then I do have some projects that I can't announce yet, for those that are diabetes related, because they obviously know that that's always going to be a passion. So if I can work with the endocrinology groups here, to sort of advanced them along in their technology and how they use it at the clinical level, and how we can ease the movement of patient data to them. And while keeping the patient data, very patient centric, and give them ownership of that data is is sort of sort of a goal there. But there will be some, I'll have some announcements at some point.   Stacey Simms  36:39 That's great. Well, congratulations. It sounds like the perfect job. And it's wonderful for the rest of us who are waiting to see what you're working on.   John Costik  36:46 Yeah, no, it's it's been great. And it's a it's a dream job. I can't complain.   Stacey Simms  36:51 It's nice when those things can happen. Well, I'm curious, does your daughter she's just a couple years older than Evan, right? Does she want the technology if she asked me for a cell phone and that sort of thing.   John Costik  37:01 She does have a cell phone and Pebble watch. But we don't make her run. You know, our watch face on it. But it's for an in basically and we told her it said this is you know, since you have to sit with your brother on the bus anyway, if there were ever an issue where his blood sugar started dropping quickly, we we gave her a tube of glucose tabs and, and a cell phone so we can we can get ahold of her on the phone. You text her and say, Hey, give your brother half a glucose tab, which we've only ever had to do maybe once or twice.   Stacey Simms  37:31 But she said she still likes him probably because I have an older sister younger brother situation here in my house. And when they were under 10 she was super helpful. And now she's a teenager. It's like nothing to do diabetes. It's just your stinky younger brother.   John Kostic  37:43 Yeah, yeah, I could. It seemed that coming.   Stacey Simms  37:47 Still help him she'd always help him. But   John Costik  37:49 I think they're both I mean, I'm biased and all but they're both very sweet and compassionate. How old?   John Costik37:54 Are they?   John Costik37:56 Nine and so yeah,   Stacey Simms  37:57 of course. Yes, of course. Then they always will bait   John Costik38:01 breaking breakfast time where they can just they're just nice. Okay, yeah.   Stacey Simms  38:08 It's all good stuff. It's all good stuff done caustic. Thank you so much for joining me. I spent a lot of time in upstate New York and central New York. So it's fun to talk to you from the Rochester area, right?   John Costik 38:18 Yeah, you weren't circulator.   Stacey Simms  38:20 I was in Syracuse, Utica. My husband is from Utica.   John Costik  38:23 Yeah, my dad went to cert Su and   Stacey Simms  38:25 excellent. Me too. That's great. Well, thank you so much for joining me and I can't wait to see what you're working on. Next. Please let me know. And we'll get the word out.   John Costik38:32 All right. Thank you very much.   John Costik38:39 You're listening to Diabetes Connections   John Costik38:41 with Stacey Simms.   Stacey Simms  38:44 Quick behind the scenes story about this episode from back in the day. I remember when my editor and I think it was I don't remember it was John Bukenas. Sorry, john, as you're editing this, I don't remember if it was john. Or if I was still working with somebody else at that time. I listened back I proof. Listen, I call it to every episode kind of like proofreading your work. And I got it back. And I was so excited because as you know, I'm so excited by the DIY stuff, even though I don't understand half of it. And I couldn't wait to listen to it till I got home and I was at Benny's baseball game. And it was such a great mom. I'm like, No, I have to listen to this. So I'm listening. I'm walking around near the baseball field, kind of watching the game kind of on my phone. And this was at the time when we did not have share. But he did certainly did not have a cell phone. And we used to hang the Dexcom receiver by a clip on the dugout on the wire mesh of the dugout. We just just hang it there and like casually walk by occasionally or just really rely on the alarms to go off. I love baseball for diabetes. For a slow game. Somebody pauses so many times to treat. I mean, the only thing that's problematic is sliding. And you can kind of figure that out by putting the Dexcom or putting your pump site in different places. But I will never forget right by Davidson Elementary School in the ballroom builds over there walking around and listen to playback of that original episode back in 2015. Okay, well thank you to my editor john Bukenas from audio editing solutions. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Stacey Simms. I will see you back here next Tuesday for our very next episode. Until then, be kind to yourself.   Benny 40:23 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Simms Media. All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged

Tara Parham, the daughter of a disabled USMCS Veteran, eighty-sixed her 6 figure income career in Government Healthcare and Lean Six Sigma, after falling ill with the first of 3  rare diseases that are associated with her dads exposure to Agent Orange, a dioxin used while he was serving in the Vietnam War. Her goal is to shed light on those who are struggling with the many debilitating conditions from Agent Orange and other Rare Diseases; to advocate for  those who are struggling to find Help, their voice, and are unable to advocate for themselves.  TRANSCRIPT s8e10- PodcastDx- Agent Orange   Lita T  00:10  Hello and welcome to another episode of podcast dx. The show that brings you interviews with people just like you, whose lives were forever changed by a medical diagnosis. I'm Lita. Ron  00:22  I'm Ron Jean  00:22  and I'm Jean Marie. Lita T  00:23  Collectively, we're the hosts of podcast dx. Our guest today is Tara. She is the daughter of a disabled US Marine Corps veteran who had to leave her position in government health care after falling ill with the first of three rare diseases that are associated with her dad's exposure to Agent Orange. It's a dioxide, Jean  00:48  dioxin Lita T  00:50  used while he was serving in the Vietnam War. Her goal today is to shed light on those who are struggling with the many disabling or debilitating conditions from Agent Orange and other rare diseases, to advocate for those who are struggling to find help their voice and are unable to advocate for themselves. Jean  01:12  Hi Tara. Hi, Tara, Tara  01:14  Hi, Ron  01:16  Tara to give our audience some background on Agent Orange. Birth defects are showing up in children of veterans who served in America's military during the Vietnam War. The mil, the military actually sprayed more than 20 million gallons of the powerful defoliant in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia to deny the enemy food sources and cover 10s of 1000s of American military personnel handled, sprayed or were sprayed by the herbicide. The chemicals in Agent Orange are known to cause a variety of illnesses including several types of cancers, among other diseases. The list of illnesses tied to Agent Orange is posted on the Department of Veterans Affairs website, and they include and I may struggle with some of these Lita T  02:09  good luck Ron. Ron  02:12  Al amyloidosis. Chronic B cell leukemia, Jean  02:18  leukemia, Lita T  02:19  leukemia, Ron  02:19  leukemia. Told you I was gonna struggle Lita T  02:24  mmhhmm Ron  02:24  Chloracne, Is that right? Lita T  02:26  Well, we could try. Jean  02:27  And actually I was just watching there's a Netflix series on now about spies. And one of the individuals who they attempt attempted to assassinate with dioxins has this and it's very, very it's a very visual type thing you can really you can definitely discern that. That's what that is. Ron  02:48  Wow! There's also Lita T  02:51  diabetes type 2 Ron  02:52   Yep. Thank you Hodgkin's disease, ischemic heart disease, multiple myeloma, also non Hodgkins lymphoma, Parkinson's disease, peripheral neuropathy, at least the early onset of it. Porphyria Cutanea Tarda. I hope I got that right. It also includes prostate cancer and other respiratory cancers, such as lung cancer, cancer of the larynx, trachea and bronchus. Also soft tissue sarcomas other than osteosarcoma, Chandrosarcoma Kaposi sarcoma, or mesothelioma. And a group of different types of cancers in the body tissues such as muscle fat, I'm sorry, muscle, fat, blood and lymph vessels, and also connective tissue. And it took decades for the Department of Veterans Affairs to admit that the powerful herbicide poisoned 1000s of their military members. Jean  04:00  And that's right, Ron, Tara  04:01  Yes Jean  04:01  and the children of the men and women that served and were effected by Agent Orange have a possibility of being you know, like the children might be born with spina bifida that's quite common. And that's a birth defect that occurs while still in in utero, and where the spinal cord fails to close at the bottom. And then children of women that served in the same situation have a larger set of possible birth defects that the VA does recognize. And that's because women are born with the same number of eggs, you know, they they carry those with them their entire lives, whereas men are constantly producing new sperm. Lita T  04:37  Right. And we are going to get to our guest in a minute. Tara  04:40  I know Lita T  04:40  I hate to put you off, but we're just trying to save you some of the background information here, Tara, According to... Tara  04:48  No, I appreciate it. Lita T  04:49  (laughter) That's okay. According to the VA that covered birth defects for children born to women who served in Vietnam and the Korean demilitarized zone. Include. Okay, now it's my turn. Ron  05:02  Exactly Lita T  05:03  Achondroplasia, cleft lip and cleft palate, congenital heart diseases. congenital talipes equinovarus Oh, that's called clubfoot. Okay, I should have just said clubfoot, esophageal and intestinal atresia, Hallerman-Streif or Steiff? stryfe Hallerman-Streiff syndrome, boy  Jack's gonna have fun editing this one Jean  05:30  Or Dom Lita T  05:31   or Dominic, whoever gets lucky, Ron  05:33  Dominic's shaking his head no. Lita T  05:34  (laughter) Hip dysplasia, Hirschsprung's disease which is a congenital mega colon, hydrocephalus due to aqueductal stenosis. Hypose, hypospadias, hypospadias. We'll say hypospadias, imperforte anus, neural tube defects, Poland syndrome pyloric stenosis, syndactyly or fused digits. Oh, that's like webbed feet. Is that right? Okay. tracheoesophageal fistula? I did pretty good on that one, undescended testicle. Williams Syndrome, Jean  06:24  and we laughed at the fact that we can't pronounce these things. Lita T  06:27  Yeah, we're not laughing at the disease. Ron  06:30  the sad part about is this agent orange causes all of this. Lita T  06:33  Yeah, Jean  06:33  Right, right Lita T  06:34  Yeah. Jean  06:34  And I mean, Tara, you must have become like an, you know, you have to know so much and learn so much. Because these are things that people normally Lita T  06:44  normally don't even think about Jean  06:45  haven't even heard. Lita T  06:46  It's not in our everyday vocabulary.  No.  So, Tara, (laughter) back to you. Thank you for taking the time to speak with us today. We really appreciate it. Now, can you start our listeners out by telling us what conditions are you personally dealing with? Tara  07:01  Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I'm really grateful to have this opportunity to speak about this. Because, as you just mentioned, all of those conditions that I'm gonna put in, quote, air quotes recognized as being caused by Agent Orange, there are a slew of other conditions. And along with medical research out there that support connections between Agent Orange and these conditions, although they're not identified as being recognized. I myself have just in the past three and a half years been diagnosed with three of those. The first is a vascular necrosis, which I have in both knees, both hips and both shoulders. A Vascular Necrosis is the the first that I was diagnosed with, which is technically called multifocal, because I have it all over. There are many citations out there that support the association between Agent Orange and a vascular necrosis. And the second diagnosis that I had was intracranial hypertension, which I actually caused me to go blind, Lita T  08:17  Ohh! Tara  08:17  completely blind, and I was never supposed to, I was never supposed to see again, ended up having to have a brain operation and a VP shunt, but that it's a central nervous system disorder that affects your your ventricles, your vessels, which is linked to the agent, orange dioxin similar to spinal bifida,  Chiari, which there's literature out there supporting the connection to that as well. Lita T  08:44  MMhhmm Tara  08:44   And the third that I was diagnosed with last year was interstitial lung disease, which causes doctors to ask if I've been around birds. But it's not just me. My sister also gets it. And there is also a slew of research out there showing the connection between respiratory conditions, not just lung cancer, respiratory cancers that are related to Agent Orange. And as recently as July 21 2020. There was a research article on that by is on the VA website for lung diseases, saying that additional research needs to be done for the veteran. So if all this research still needs to be done for the veterans, there's still so much that has to happen just for their descendants, their offspring Ron  09:41  Right, Lita T  09:41  Right, right, because I've heard that it's also being passed on to the grandchildren. So it must be doing something Tara  09:48  Yes Lita T  09:48 in the genetic links, right? Tara  09:50  Yes. Yes, it's multi generational, and it can lie dormant for years like mine didn't. It didn't show up until I was 40. Ron  10:00  WOW! Tara  10:00  yeah. And and my sister, my sister was actually born with webbed feet, which they recognized as one of the Ron  10:09  conditions? Tara  10:09  things that correct that can be passed on to descendants. That and she also has the same lung condition that I have. But so we both have it. Lita T  10:18  Wow Jean  10:19  and dioxins are also found in other areas. I mean, it's something that if you're, you know, say your your family wasn't exposed to Agent Orange, but you know, you should be aware of it, Lita T  10:30  like landscapers, are you saying? Jean  10:31  No, like on paper mills, Oh, there they are found in other areas in in industry. And this actually does kind of hit close to home because, um, Agent Orange was originally developed at the University of Illinois as a means to help grow soybeans. And it wasn't it used it Lita T  10:38  as a chemical weapon Jean  10:42  originally, very low doses, and then the military Lita T  10:53  weaponized it basically. Jean  10:54  Yeah, yeah Lita T  10:55  Well thank you, Tara. I think our listeners have a better understanding of what we're going to be talking about now. Since we only discuss one one diagnosis per episode, we would like to discuss your battle with multifocal avascular necrosis, also known as AVN. Perhaps you're willing to come back on another episode and talk about the other problems individually? Would that be okay? Tara  11:19  Absolutely. Lita T  11:20  Great. So we could make this into like a mini series? Jean  11:24  Yes Yes. Cuz I mean, it's, it's Tara  11:26  absolutely. Lita T  11:27  That would be really, really great. Jean  11:28  Yeah Well, and yeah, we can kind of understand that when you when you volunteer for the military. You know, there's a lot of things that you're going to be exposed to that normal, civilians...  Yeah. Lita T  11:28  And I don't know if you're aware of, but Jean and I are both veterans. And we always support any veteran activity that's out there. Because it's also supporting us. Jean  11:49  Actually we just, you know, we were just saying this morning that, you know, the vaccine for COVID is not mandatory, they can't really make it mandatory. However, in the military, it would be mandatory, because you're giving away your life for your country. Tara  12:04  Yeah! Lita T  12:04  However, does that mean you're giving away your children's lives, your grandchildren's lives, this is where this topic is going to be important. Jean  12:12  And there is there is the onus on them to keep their personal safe. Lita T  12:16  Yeah. Jean  12:16  And whenever possible, prevent, you know, disease and illness Lita T  12:20  Right Jean  12:20  that kind of situation, Lita T  12:21   right Tara  12:22  Yep. I completely agree. And oftentimes, you know, the military families, the sacrifices that they make when their loved ones are off serving, or the sacrifices, in this case, their health. So I completely agree. Lita T  12:39  Well, yeah, we never would have expected this type of a reaction based on Agent Orange, but now we're learning Jean  12:47   Yeah. And Tara  12:48  I know, Jean  12:49   Tara, can you tell us? What is AVN? And which bones? You said that you have it? It's multi Lita T  12:55  shoulders? Jean  12:56  Yeah. Shoulders in everything? Can you tell us which exact which joints are affected in your body? Lita T  13:01  And what is it Jean  13:01  in? What is it? Yeah, Tara  13:04  sure. Well, avascular necrosis is It's the result of reduction of the blood flows to the bone. I, I have it in both knees, both hips, both shoulders, which basically means my bones didn't get enough of the blood, which caused them to start to die. And once the bones start to die, they don't just regenerate themselves. Now, here's an interesting fact. I was diagnosed with this three and a half years ago, my dad, the veter... the Vietnam veteran was just diagnosed with that three months ago. And Jean  13:41  Oh my gosh, Tara  13:42   and there's multiple, like I said, there's multiple citations out there of so many other veterans and their descendants, who have also been diagnosed with avascular necrosis. But what it does is as the bone dies, it brings the entire joint with it. So oftentimes, it's missed. It's not diagnosed until it's until at a later stage, which makes it a lot more complex. And it's very hard to find. Lita T  14:14  Does it start out? Yeah, the symptoms as they start out, is it does it feel like a arthritic type of a feeling or how did the symptoms start with you? Tara  14:24  Well, what started interestingly, I woke up one morning and I thought that I had twisted my knee and my sleep. So it felt like a torn ligament in my knee. And I ended up going to the emergency room and I was misdiagnosed with bone cancer. Because Ron  14:44  Oh Wow, Tara  14:45  it Yeah, it looks like bone like white specks all in my bones. Jean  14:52  Mhhmm Lita T  14:52 Ohhh! Tara  14:52  And that's the dead bone marks. They're called bone infarct. So I have that as well as, as the death on the end of the bone, which is the a vascular necrosis too. So that was the initial diagnosis. And I, it took me all over the country, I ended up going to Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota to trying to find a diagnosis and help, which ultimately landed me in New York City at New York Presbyterian, where I found a doctor to do a bilateral hip procedure on me to try and slow down the progression. Lita T  15:31  Okay Tara  15:32   So, and maybe I should touch more on, I guess, how do you want me to touch more on the connection between avascular necrosis and Agent Orange? Lita T  15:42  Sure, sure. Tara  15:45  Okay, hold on, let me get let me get there, my notes... Lita T  15:49  she that's what Jean was saying. You have to become a expert. Jean  15:53 Subject matter expert  I think there should be honorary doctorates. Lita T  15:56  Yes. Jean  15:57  For patients like you. Yeah Tara  15:59  Yeah, you have to you have to be your own, like advocate. And that's the biggest challenge especially says it's considered rare. There's not a lot of doctors who actually have the knowledge that you need. So you get Misdiagnosed, and you get misinformation, which causes you to lose time, and your options for treatment diminish. Ron  16:25  Absolutely Tara  16:25  So hold on one second. Sorry. Jean  16:29  And I think Mayo Clinic is very interesting in Rochester, Minnesota, because the weather gets so cold there. I like to call it mole city. I don't know if they would agree with me calling it mole city Lita T  16:39  (laughter)  the tunnel. Jean  16:39  But there's tunnels underground that connect the hospital to like the hotels, the hospital to the grocery store, to the library. So you don't have to go out there. freezing cold Lita T  16:49  It's very nice. It's very nice Jean  16:50  It's unique. It's it's kind of fun. Lita T  16:52  Right? Jean  16:53  And there's little shops all along the route. Lita T  16:55  Yes. Tara  16:55  Okay. Here we are. So the connection with the a vascular necrosis, and Agent Orange. So Avascular Necrosis, like I said, it's a result of the reduction of the blood flow to the bone. And Agent Orange has an adverse effect on blood vessels. So there's medical literature, literature that support Agent Orange, and the dioxin is capable of lying dormant and the effects that it has on the blood vessels. So it's actually the result? Yeah, hold on one second. Lita T  17:32  I know I read the word stenosis and a couple of the different results. Tara  17:37  By patients? Lita T  17:38  Right. So stenosis is is reducing in size, so possibly, the blood vessel size is reduced at the at the bone. Could that be part of it? Tara  17:49  Yeah. It's because it's not getting because of that the blood is not flowing the way that it needs to. Lita T  17:55  Right. Jean  17:56  And I guess most people don't think of their bones as first of all even needing a blood source. Lita T  18:00  Yeah, yeah Jean  18:01  but you don't realize that the osteocytes and, and everything inside your bone that you know that there's constant growth in bone and that it's still... Tara  18:07  I know. Jean  18:08  Yeah, because you think it's like set in stone. But really, it's, you know, part of your living Lita T  18:14  body, Jean  18:14  it's part of your body that's, you know, it's constantly Lita T  18:16  most people don't think about it Jean  18:17  regenerating,  yeah. Lita T  18:17  Right, right Tara  18:19  It is. And a lot of people also kind of confused a vascular necrosis, which is also called osteonecrosis, but they confuse it with osteoporosis. Lita T  18:30  Right, right Tara  18:32  Like, Jean  18:32  ohhhh, Tara  18:32  Oh, they're like, you have Ron  18:34  brittle bones? Tara  18:34  osteoporosis. I'm like, it's not osteoporosis. Lita T  18:37  No, no Tara  18:39  It's osteonecrosis.  And it's completely different. I went through that, initially, to once I found out that it was the a vascular necrosis, it was very challenging to explain to people actually, what it was, who had assumed that it was osteoperosis, Ron  18:40  Right Lita T  18:40  Different Ron  18:40  Right, right  you know, as we're talking, I just, it reminds me and this is going way back, when I was in college, I had done a paper on the banning of chemicals and Agent Orange. Jean  19:14  Mhhmm Ron  19:14   It was done like in the mid 70s, or something like that, because they knew it was bad. They just didn't know how bad Jean  19:22  Mhhmm Lita T  19:22   Oh Wow. Ron  19:22  And this is where the stuff that we're talking about now is the result of all the research from that but way back in the 80s when I did this paper, they knew that this stuff was bad and that's why they said no more of these chemicals. Jean  19:39  Well, it kind of reminds me of lead in fuel. Ron  19:41  Mhhmm Jean  19:42  And you know, like to prove that it was perfectly fine, which it's not the someone actually dipped their hands into it, and then later on, developed all sorts of cancers in both arms. But you know, like we I guess it takes time and research and, you know, you have to think about the effects down the road. Ron  20:00  The long term Absolutely. Jean  20:01  And it's not. Yeah, it's a challenge, Lita T  20:03  right? Tara  20:04  Yeah. And I remember reading somewhere that the amount of chemical that was used over there covered the span of I think it was like Kentucky and another state combined. And it was actually the the combination of the chemicals in Agent Orange. The thing is tcdd tetrachloride benzodioxine, dioxin tcdd. It's the chemical group of compounds named dioxins. And that's what makes Agent Orange as notorious as it is. And it's actually considered the most toxic of all dioxins, which is saying a lot, because dioxins are notoriously toxic. So, yeah, it's, um, I don't know, if you guys watched Chernobyl, that show? Jean  21:01  I haven't seen that one yet. It's on my list. Tara  21:03  Oh, I'm wondering how come they haven't done something like this for Agent Orange? Jean  21:08  That's interesting Tara  21:09  I'm like, yeah, Jean  21:10  yeah. And I've been to see, oh, what has it done to the population? Lita T  21:13  in Vietnam? Jean  21:14  Yeah, in Vietnam? Because, um, you know, it's a long lasting chemical. And it's, yeah, it's got to have long term effects. Lita T  21:22  Right. Jean  21:22  Yeah. And then it's also in the environment at large. Tara  21:25  Yep. And there is actually I've read a lot of things about the effects of the what's happening in Vietnam because of this. It's still being in the soil, so... Jean  21:37  And, and there's probably, you know, if your going to have does have research and information, that's probably a good source as well, because they have a probably a greater population from the exposure. And actually, I think that takes us to Ron's question... Ron  21:50  exactly. Can you tell us how common is a vascular necrosis? And actually, how is it treated? Tara  22:00  Sure, so a vascular necrosis is probably anywhere from 10 to 20,000 people a year are diagnosed with it. So in order to be considered a rare disease, it's 200,000 or less avascular necrosis is 10, to 20,000. Jean  22:20  Okay Tara  22:20  So to treat a vascular necrosis and I need to give a plug here, because a lot of my information, Dr. Michael Mont, at Lenox Hill, who has, I was scheduled to have surgery on both knees, both hips in both shoulders in September of this time here, but due to COVID, and all of that, a couple of other mishaps, I actually kind of got sick with my lungs, too. We're postponing it, but he is phenomenal. He is a avascular necrosis guru, let me say that. So a lot of what I am speaking to is from literature that I've read that he wrote and talks about. So as far as treatments go for a vascular necrosis. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of people don't get a diagnosis until later in stage three, to give a little background on this, there is different staging, I guess, models that are used, there's ARCAT, then if you use the ARCAT, there's ARCO there's four stages, the first two stages are only identifiable on an MRI. So most people aren't going to be if you go to the doctor and you have knee pain or something they're not they're going to do an X ray. And when they don't see anything, it's like I don't, you're fine. Most, a lot of times, you don't go for an MRI for multiple reasons. So you don't get diagnosed until the pain progressed, and it gets really bad. Well, it's during those first two stages, where you have the less invasive procedures that are options that could help prolong you, possibly your bone completely dying and needing total replacements and it's becoming mobility issues, as well. So Another interesting fact here, too, and I'm kind of all over the board, but you know, Lita T  24:29  yeah, you know, it turns out to be like a spider web, you know, one thing leads to another but go ahead and take your time.  Tara  24:35  I know avascular necrosis, there are a couple kind of well known people that had it A-Rod had it in his shoulder, Mike Napoli. Oh, the Red Sox play for the Red Sox, but theirs were caught. It was caught really early because they had to go through rigorous physical. So they had really high success. But I can't stress the importance of especially If somebody has history of Agent Orange, and they're having hip pain or something of that nature and their knees, hips or shoulders or something, especially if they have underlying health issues that prompts them to need prednisone or steroids, cause that contributes to that. It's like a perfect storm, Lita T  25:24  okay Tara  25:24  with the agent orange to cause a vascular necrosis. So did I answer your question?, Lita T  25:32  Yeah that makes sense. That makes sense. Right? Tara  25:35  I didn't finish answering the question though, Lita T  25:37  no, that's okay. But at least that gives some background. Right. Right. Tara  25:41  Okay, Jean  25:42  well, yeah. And I think, you know, if you go to, you know, your orthopedist, and I don't think you know, is it typical for them to ask you? So did your parents, you know, serve in Vietnam? Are they exposed Agent Orange, it's, if it's not on their intake information, you really do have to advocate for yourself. Lita T  25:58  Right? So the treatments again, the the initial treatments are, are what? Tara  26:06  Okay, there you go. See, I didn't even answer it. Ron  26:09  (Laughter) Tara  26:09  So there's a there's, there's quite a few different treatments for the stage. And it's a little bit controversial, too, because, because it's rare, and most people don't get diagnosed until stage three and four. That means that there's not a lot of people to actually do tests that are trials on Lita T  26:35  Oh Okay Tara  26:35   stage one and two, or phase, the earlier stages. But very popular and somewhat controversial, depending on who you talk to is a core decompression, where they use bone marrow efforts that stem cells. So what accordi compression is, is they take and drill holes into your bone. And they inject stem cells into the bone marrow in hopes of regenerating the bone. Lita T  27:10  Would they be your own stem cells? Tara  27:12  Yes Lita T  27:13  Okay? Tara  27:13  Yeah, yes. But I also have for earlier stages. Do they also do PRP for protein rich? The Lita T  27:21  plasma Tara  27:22  stem cells? Lita T  27:23  Okay. Okay. Tara  27:25  But as far as treatment for the later stages, and that so.... So why I said it was controversial is because some orthopedist will say that, if you have a core decompression, you're kind of wasting your time, because it might buy you a little time, but you're still ultimately going, it's still going to collapse in the long run. And you're still going to have to go through all of the other things. So why even do the core de-compression? Lita T  27:58  So it's just it's just a temporary Jean  28:01  stop gap. Lita T  28:01  A stop gap Yeah. Ron  28:03  How much time? Jean  28:04  Yeah, Tara  28:06  it varies. And it's not always, that's not always the case, I had the bilateral hip core decompression in January of 2018. And I mean, I had tremendous relief after I did, and so far, like, it's, it hasn't gotten to the point to where I would need like to have it again. Like the pain hasn't gotten to that point to where it was before I had that surgery. So it's but there's other people who have had success and haven't had to go on and have any further surgery. So it's, it's not a, everyone will will have to it's there might be some that do and some that don't. And so the some that that do ultimately have to go on and have it that causes them to say that not to have it I don't know. So it is controversial. Lita T  29:05  Okay Tara  29:06  If you ask anybody, you'll get mixed reviews on whether you should or shouldn't. But the the guru, Dr. Michael Mont will tell you yes. To do the core compression, and I'm right there with him. Lita T  29:18  Okay. Tara  29:19  A majority of the time, I guess it depends there are things that so so let me just kind of say this. There's it depends on how much of the articular surface though, is covered with it has dead bones. Like if there's 75% or more, that has dead bone or if it's less light, so there's so many different,  "if that, then that" Lita T  29:47  Right, right. Tara  29:48  And so Lita T  29:48  like with cancer, you know, they treat cancer based on how much progression there is, are they going to use radio radiation or chemo? So I'm sure that they base it based on like, you're saying how bad it has progressed, right? Tara  30:02  Correct, correct? Yeah. But that's for the first on the stage one and stage two, stage three and four get more complex. Jean  30:14  Okay Tara  30:14  So you have a variety of different options depending on, like I said, how much dead bone there is, as well as where it's at, where the dead bone is at. I have dead bone. It's 75% on one side, 85% on the other, my hip, and my knees are actually stage three. And my, my, my right, left shoulder is stage three, my right is stage two. And what that means is that some of the more less, the less invasive procedures, maybe don't have a high success possibility. It doesn't mean that it wouldn't possibly work, shall I say? Does that make sense? Jean  31:04  It does, but is is like a replacement of the joint possibility. Tara  31:15  Is the what I'm sorry, Jean  31:16  can can they replace the joints? Tara  31:19  Yes. But you wouldn't do that until stage later? Well, it depends on how much pain you're having to and a lot of it is derived by it by that. But yes, replacing it is an option. So and let me just explain this. This is the best explanation that somebody gave me on how to explain a vascular necrosis. So a vascular, a lot of people think that a vascular necrosis is like your joint. Something happened because you get a joint replacement. But what's happening is picture like whenever they lay of road, paver road, they lay sand down first and then they lay asphalt on top of it. But as you get a pothole, what happens is that sand settles and as the sand settles, then it pulls that asphalt down. So that's the same thing that's happening with the bone as the bone is dying because that's what a vascular necrosis is, is the bone dying as the dying is pulling down and that's what pulls your joint down and all of that, and it pulls all your ligaments and cartilage down and that's why you had to have all of it replaced. Jean  32:35  So it's like sinkholes in the bone. Okay. Tara  32:38  Yeah. Because your bones they're dying and they're, they're collapsing. And so as it does, it's taking everything with it. Lita T  32:45  It's not just the not just the bone at the joint itself, but could it occur anywhere along the bone? Tara  32:55  Yes, I I actually have it that called bone infarct, I have a vascular necrosis at the ends of my bones. And then I have bone infarct, which is dead bone patches throughout the long parts of my bones to which is where a lot of the the cancer that's where the cancer misdiagnosis came because it looks like that it shows up white in the images. Lita T  33:25  Okay, Tara  33:26  but yes, Lita T  33:27  wow, Jean  33:28  yeah, Tara  33:28  for stage three and four, they have multiple different options, like there's an OATS procedure, a vascular graft procedure, ultimately, yes, a total replacement would be, I guess, that I want to say worst case scenario, but before the meet at that age, is a replacement for your hip would only last 10 years. Jean  33:55  Okay, so they try to hold off. Tara  33:56  Now it's actually lasting longer. Sometimes I think it's different if you have a vascular necrosis because the bones especially if they continue to kind of die after you've had the replacement, Jean  34:09  right? Like after the bone isn't. Lita T  34:12  Right. Jean  34:13  Okay.  I was just gonna say this, the shaft of the bone is supporting that joint. And so eventually, like, you'd have to place the shaft and the joint itself. Lita T  34:20 Right So Jean  34:21  and you're Lita T  34:22  Why can't they get to the point where they're actually just solving the cause Jean  34:27  the, stopping the necrosis. Lita T  34:28  Right So in other words, like, Jean  34:30  right, Lita T  34:30  feeding the bone with the blood Jean  34:32  Right, Lita T  34:33  they can't. They can't come up with something where they can actually Jean  34:36  I'm sure somebody's researching it somewhere.  yeah. Lita T  34:38  yeah, Ron  34:38  Yep Lita T  34:40  Wow. Tara  34:40  Yeah. No, Lita T  34:41  sorry. Tara  34:41  Yeah. Lita T  34:42  Yeah. Are they? I hate to interrupt you, Tara. But are there are there things that you could do to relieve the symptoms or improve your quality of life as you're going through this, you know, like as a person, not medical, Jean  34:58  as an individual Lita T  34:58  as an individual thank you Jean  35:00  No I think, I think we do want medical. Lita T  35:02  Okay. Alright Tara  35:02  Yeah. Well, I can tell you. I can tell you from research that I did as far as exercise goes, low impacts. aquatics is really good. Lita T  35:15  Okay, Tara  35:15   yoga. Another good thing that I found actually has been tremendous for me. Is is keto. Lita T  35:22  What is keto? Tara  35:25  What I eat. Lita T  35:26  Oh, I'm sorry. Okay.  I thought it was a new. I thought it was like a karate. (laughter). Jean  35:32  Okay, okay, stop. Lita T  35:35  I'm sorry. Tara  35:36  No. Keto. So one of the things of one of the challenges is, you know, with your bones, whenever you have a vascular necrosis, it makes it really challenging to be able to work out and get exercise or to go on a hike or things of that nature. Because it's kind of like a tire your bones are, the more you drive, the more your tire wears down. And so with avascular necrosis, it's the more that you walk, the more the bone collapses. Lita T  36:05  Sure, sure. Right. Tara  36:08  And so previous literature, I'd probably have to say and there might be some orthopedics that still recommend it, although I wouldn't.  That say non weight bearing, like Don't, don't walk, try and limit your, your walking and as much as possible, because that will prolong the collapse. But what I found changing my eating too  has allowed me to drop 36 pounds last year. And Jean  36:37 congratulations, Tara  36:38  when I wasn't able to work out and do those things that I used to love to do, like running. You know, Jean  36:47  do you still run in your sleep in your dreams? Is that just me? . Tara  36:52  You know what I do sometimes from from scary PTSD doctors that I've had from my experiences, but yeah, yes, I'm running. Lita T  37:02  Okay. I'm sorry. Is it my turn? Jean  37:05  Yeah, it's your turn Lita T  37:06  Oh okay (laughter) Jean  37:07  go fish. Ron  37:07  Yeah. Lita T  37:08  What? Tara, what role have your family and friends played in your health care journey? Jean  37:13  Yeah. Especially your sister. Um, Tara  37:17  okay. So, my family has been tremendous. Um, my dad and my mom have been my rock. I don't, I would not have been able to make it without them, which I'm not going to go into, like, my past or anything. But it's, it's different from how I grew up. You know, my dad was fighting his demons with the war. But now, he's, he's my rock. Luckily, with COVID because he was in a war veterans home for the past 17 years. And then COVID happened. And I found out that they weren't allowing their workers to wear masks.   And so I had him. Oh, yeah. Yep. Lita T  38:02  Oh! Ron  38:02  What? Wow. Tara  38:05  in April. Yeah, I have that recorded. But anyway, um, Lita T  38:10  what state are you in? Oh, what state are you in? Tara  38:13  I'm in Louisiana, Louisiana right now. So, um, I had him discharged. And so he's been able to be here with me. Although it's been extremely challenging with my stuff, but we've been able to support each other. Lita T  38:31  Support each other Right. Jean  38:32  And it's nice to meet your parents again, as adults, Lita T  38:36  Yes Jean  38:36   you know, to get to know them again. As an adult. Tara  38:39  Yeah, exactly. Yes. And so it's been, um, my family has been amazing. is I don't even know how to say this and dance around it. I probably should have prepared better for that question. Jean  38:57  You could leave in skip it, you can skip it Tara  39:00   Okay, Lita T  39:00  Whatever is comfortable for you. And if you want us to edit this out, we could also edit that part out Jean  39:05  sure. Tara  39:05  Okay, well, let me just say this. I fell into probably one of the darkest places of my life that I've ever been in. I am honestly lucky to be alive. There were days that I didn't know if I would make it if it wasn't my health, bringing me to the brink. My physical health, it was my mental health. And so every single relationship in my life was affected. I'm currently where we stand. My mom and my dad are my support system. And I'm rebuilding everything else. Jean  39:44  Okay. Lita T  39:45  Okay. Ron  39:45  Gotcha Lita T  39:46  All right. Jean  39:47  Yeah. And I talk about mental health and physical health definitely go hand in hand. Lita T  39:51  Yes, for sure. Definitely. Tara  39:53  Absolutely. And when you're fighting for your life, you don't have like a lot of the energy to use On those relationships, so work on those. Lita T  40:03  We understand that Tara  40:03  And so everything is affected, you know, Lita T  40:06  we understand that, yeah. Jean  40:07  And you're in your friends and family have to be very understanding you're not able to do the things you used to do. And they really do have to make an effort. Lita T  40:14  Right? Right. Tara  40:15  Right Lita T  40:15  And some people just can't really put themselves in the shoes of another person that has a chronic illness. Tara  40:23  Right  Yes Lita T  40:24  And it's difficult.  And, you might have to just excuse them and say, well, it's just not within their  Yeah. purview Jean  40:33  Purview?. Tara  40:33  Yeah, wheelhouse Lita T  40:35  right. Right. Right. Ron  40:36  Look, this isn't really part of the script. But I'm just curious in you don't have to answer if you don't want to. Have you been able to see someone or talk to a therapist? Or? Tara  40:47  Oh I have a yes. Yes, Ron  40:50  Okay Tara  40:50   I have. I've had a therapist for probably, like 10 years. Um, who? I call her my life coach, actually. Jean  40:59  Sure. Sure.  Ron  41:00  Right Tara  41:00  She's Wonderful. Lita T  41:01  Yeah. Anybody with a chronic illness? It's causing pain on a non stop basis, I think, personally, should consider a therapist,  Right I know, Ron  41:11  but people look, view it differently.  That's my opinion, But people dance around the question Tara  41:11  Absolutely Lita T  41:17  but personally, Yeah, yeah. My opinion is that it's needed. Jean  41:20  Yeah. Tara  41:20  Yeah, they're, they're such that there is still a stigma, in many ways about therapy and mental health. But honestly, there isn't, even if you don't think that you have a mental health, you know, reason to seek help. We all have things that we could improve on, Lita T  41:39  Sure Ron  41:39  Certainly Tara  41:40   and why, you know, why wouldn't we want to? Lita T  41:43  Right Tara  41:43  That's exactly what a therapist would help you do? You know? So that's just my thoughts. Jean  41:49  Oh absolutely Ron  41:50  Some people have that thought of, these are my feelings I hate for anybody else to know what I'm feeling. I'll just deal with it internally. Tara  41:59  Yeah. Ron  41:59  And, you know, again, I mean, people look at it, people view it, people process it differently. I'm in total agreement with what Lita and Jean Marie and what you're saying about, it's great to talk with someone. But again, because of the stigma and all that a lot of times there's people out there that say, I don't want anybody, Lita T  42:19  right, Ron  42:20  know  what's going on, Jean  42:21  But it is coming into play in more. For example, like with organ transplant, getting counseling is not an option. Ron  42:31  Right Jean  42:31  It's a requirement, Ron  42:32  right? Jean  42:33  And because they realize that you really you, you need assistance, and you need some help. Ron  42:37  Right Jean  42:37  And it's a big deal. And I think the more and more we integrate health and take it in is part of the whole health package, the better it is for everyone. Lita T  42:47  Right. Jean  42:47  And this way it reduces that stigma Lita T  42:48  better. If we would have started that way back when medicine started, Jean  42:52  right, Lita T  42:53  and said, mental health and physical health are hand in hand. And if you go to a doctor, and you're being seen for something that's chronic, I mean, if it's something that's that's short lived, and the doctor fixes you, there's probably but if it's chronic, I think that you should automatically say, well, because of this chronic illness, you automatically, you know, should go to Jean  43:14  it should be included, Lita T  43:14  right? It should be included. Tara  43:16  Yep. No, I was just gonna say I think there needs to be like some type of chronic illness case manager, care manager, and whenever somebody is diagnosed, that they're referred to that person, and there's information that is given to them based especially based off of that condition, and it includes all of what you're saying. Absolutely Lita T  43:34  right, right Tara  43:35  because there is a huge gap, in many ways on in chronic illness, especially rare disease like that. I mean, it takes a good year for somebody just to get their bearings for any condition, Lita T  43:52  right to process it Tara  43:53  You want to make it a rare, a rare disease, and then that it adds to it because there's only a handful of people who actually have the knowledge that you need in order to find the treatment that you need. And oftentimes you have to travel extensively. I've had to travel across the country and figure out financially how you were going to afford it. I've had to get extremely creative. I found a lot of my doctors based off of research articles that I've read, because there wasn't actually an organization for my condition. So it there's so much that needs to be done in this this arena. But all of what you're saying would be great, too. Lita T  44:37  Well, that leads me to my next question. Tara, what is the best advice that you've received for coping with a rare disease and what advice would you give to somebody recently diagnosed with a rare disease? Tara  44:52  The best advice that I received was you have to be kind to yourself and take one day at a time and I know that That really, it really sounds cliche, because you hear, you know, one day at a time, but you get so exhausted, trying to just trying to find the most simplest thing. And all you want to do is like, just find the answers. And you can't even find an answer. That won't even get on people who are misdiagnosed. But it's really easy to get discouraged, and you beat yourself up over things. So I think that that was the best advice that I received for coping, and that to surround yourself with people who will help you see a side of you that you can't see, Lita T  45:43  like to bring out the positive from you. Tara  45:45  Yeah, well, that will remind you of the good in you because you're going to be struggling really hard. You're not going to feel like that person at all. Lita T  45:54  Right. Good advice. Ron  45:56  Yeah absolutely. Tara, how can our listeners learn more about you? And also about AVN? And do you have any, any social media accounts out there that you want to share with us? Tara  46:11  Absolutely. Um, can I go back and answer the rest of the rest of that question though? Lita T  46:17  Oh sure, go back, backtrack! Tara  46:19  Okay. Okay. So, um, because what advice would I give to someone recently diagnosed with a rare disease is, I would say, research online to see if there's a nonprofit for that condition. One of the best places that I have found support is on social media support group. Facebook has so many support groups, and specifically about the a vascular necrosis support group. That's where Dr. Michael Mont, the one that the avascular necrosis guru, every two weeks, he goes on, he does a live q&a, invite anybody on that support group to participate and ask him any question that you want whatsoever? Lita T  47:08  I love that Tara  47:08  Send him your Yep, you can send him your, your, your discs, to look at it, develop a treatment plan for you do all of that for free? Like he is? Yeah, it's amazing. So for any rare disease, I don't know. I wish my other conditions had that type of interaction. But the a vascular necrosis support group does and it's amazing. So I would definitely start with support groups. Social media, look for the nonprofit, associated National Organization for rare disease Nord, is a place to start to, that will lead you to any nonprofits, potentially, to finding help. And another option is research articles. That's how I found a lot of the doctors that I've met and saw, but based off of who wrote the research article, though, but that was my advice. Lita T  48:13  Okay, thank you. How can we learn more about you then? Tara  48:17  More about me, I will, I will send you my social media contact information. And I am actually starting next weekend. I'm going to start documenting my journey. Lita T  48:30  Oh good Ron  48:30  Okay. Lita T  48:31  like a blog. Tara  48:31  Yep Lita T  48:32  And a blog. Okay, great. Tara  48:33  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, on a blog. Lita T  48:37  Excellent. We'll make sure that we put a link for that in our website. Tara  48:40  Yes. Because I want to hopefully, share and hopefully I can help others that have maybe experienced the same things that I have. Even especially with the surgery that I'm going to have to have too Lita T  48:54  To get ready for, great, excellent idea. Thank you very much. Well, Tara, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. And we're looking forward to speaking with you in the future about the other issues that you're dealing with. So we'll be scheduling, we'll be scheduling other appointments for you in the future. Tara  49:16  Great, and I'm like, I got my first podcast down and there's nowhere to go, only improve. Right Ron  49:22  (laughter) Tara  49:22  like I'm only gonna get much better. Lita T  49:24  Yes, Ron  49:25  Oh you did fine. Don't worry about it yet fine. Lita T  49:28  We're gonna definitely Tara  49:28  I didn't even Lita T  49:31  we're gonna definitely be pushing this episode into our veterans network so that other veterans and children of veterans will be aware of this as well. Tara  49:42  I'm going to too and that's why I was going to ask you guys for your social all your social media Lita T  49:47  Sure yes Tara  49:48   because I'd already created like the post and I want to post it and Lita T  49:52  Great, great Tara  49:53  report although although I'm really reluctant because I so I wrote down all my answer, like I've rehearsed it. A lot of what I said is not even on what I wrote. Lita T  50:04  Okay, alright  Ron  50:06  Maybe we should  do that Lita T  50:07  (laughter) Tara  50:07  I don't know what happened. I don't know what happened. And I'm like, what I wrote is probably like, a lot better than what I said. And I was like, Oh my God, why did you do that? Lita T  50:16  It always goes that way? It always goes that way. The only reason we use a script is, well, I think it's because of me, I have early onset Alzheimer's. And if I don't have a script in front of me, I forget where we are. I forget who we're talking to, I forget quite a bit. So it keeps me focused. And I think it helps keep us from talking over each other. Because when there's three of us on this side of the microphone, talking to you, it kind of limits how much we're talking over each other. So it helps us Jean  50:48  And I tend to ramble. Tara  50:49  Okay Lita T  50:51  (laughter) Ron  50:51  And I guess I tend to interrupt. Jean  50:53  Yeah. Tara  50:56  So if I tell you that I had the script in front of me, will that scare you? Lita T  51:00  No, Ron  51:00  not at all Jean  51:01  no, no, no. Tara  51:02  Ok Cause I had it in front of me. And I still rambled and went off topic. And I'm like, and I didn't even do it. And I was like, Oh, my God, Ron  51:09  You're all good. Lita T  51:10  I'm glad you did, because it turned out wonderfully. Ron  51:13  Yeah, Lita T  51:13  Thank you very much. Ron  51:14  And actually, we do appreciate you coming on the show this morning and sharing your story with us. Quite interesting to say the least. Lita T  51:22  Oh yeah! Ron  51:23  And I'm sure that all of our listeners out there, learned a lot from this episode. Lita T  51:27  I learned a lot. Jean  51:28  I did too! Ron  51:28  And we're looking forward to having you come on in the future to talk about some of the other conditions that you had mentioned earlier. Tara  51:36  Yeah. And I have like, so I have so much better documentation that I could provide? Lita T  51:44  Well, you know, what you could do is you could send me those links through email. Jean  51:48  We can add them to our Pinterest Page Lita T  51:50  When I when I build the website, I don't know if you're aware of this, but you'll get your own page on our website. And then I put links for everything that you would like, on our on your website page. And this way people Tara  52:03  Awesome! Lita T  52:03   can go right there. Yes, Jean  52:05  Yeah And then we'll have a Pinterest page for you as well. And it'll have direct links to any research that you'd like to cite or any documents or articles. Lita T  52:13  Right, right. Jean  52:16  Awesome, so good because I have all of those, like, I have the whole slew of medical, even research and citations and everything Lita T  52:26  exactly Tara  52:26  and even stuff about Agent Orange, so. Lita T  52:28  Right Very important to include. Yeah, Ron  52:32  right. Right, right. Okay, well, thank you again. If our listeners have any questions or comments related to today's show, they can contact us at podcast dx@yahoo.com through our website, podcast dx.com on Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, or Instagram. Jean  52:50 And if you have a moment to spare, please give us a review wherever you get your podcast. As always, please keep in mind that this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or a qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have regarding medical condition or treatment before undertaking a new health care routine and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking you because of something you've heard on this podcast. Lita T  53:09 Till next week.  

The tool Bryant shares in this Podcast will help you improve your mental, emotional, and physical state exponentially. As always, you can take online courses in life and business strategy from Bryant here - https://learn.bryantchambers.comAlso, stay in touch with Bryant at https://bryantchambers.comPartial Transcript Below==================What's up podcast And welcome back to the movement today I'd like to do something collaborative with you and that's because I had a regular podcast recorded for today's session and unfortunately the recording was so God awful I didn't want to put you through the nightmare of having toe listen to that And I did everything I could to try to salvage it with my uh very amateur audio engineering skills but I just couldn't salvage it So we're here and I thought it gave me a unique opportunity to do something with you together and collaborative That thing's gonna have a really positive impact not just on your day today but on your life is ah whole if you use the tool that I'm about to share with you And this is this is an exercise that I've taken God only knows how many people through it you know in my life period But also in coaching relationships with business owners and you name it And I wanna use this tool a za way to basically do a check in with you to see how are you really doing to get you to start thinking about the things in your life that are the way they are and why they are that way and to look at the things that aren't the way you want them to be and to figure out how you are the center of all of that and what adjustments you need to make in yourself to see the manifestations in the world around you All right so this is a tool that I call MEPs Uh I don't know that anybody else calls it that I basically cobbled together It's an acronym and I'll tell you what it means in a second But I'm gonna take you through an exercise called MEPs And that's for mental emotional physical and um spiritual right MEPs mental emotional physical spiritual And so what we do in this check in uh and what I what I've done with clients or just people I'm helping in general in the past is let's do a mental check in and then we move into an emotional check in and then a physical check in and then how are you doing spiritually and then for a lot of people obviously I have to explain what spiritually means because everybody defines that very differently And don't worry we'll get to that But I wanted to do the exercise with you Want to check in on you to see how you're really doing but to to help you see how you're really doing to see areas where you may be doing really well or areas where you might need some improvement or maybe deficient and And let's plus that up today So if we were sitting across from one another on I was to ask you where are you at today Mentally Using words to describe how you are experiencing the world around you in terms of your thoughts and your mental resilience and fortitude And are you at peace You know what are some of the uh you know in mental and emotional Very much go together Right So how are you doing mentally right Are you mentally fatigued Are you exhausted Are you putting in a lot of work Uh into your job your career building a side business How are you doing mentally Right And then the next question is how are you doing emotionally Using words to describe how you feel emotionally right Are you even Are you excited because something really cool is about to happen Are you afraid All right Are you feeling some level of you know anxious anxiety and angst about something that's you think or fear may be coming in the future right How would you describe how you feel emotionally Right And then physically that's a pretty easy one Like are you dealing with any pain or you physically feeling okay.Support the show (https://patreon.com/bryantchambers)

Episode Notes If you have been contacted by federal law enforcement as a result of the uprising, contact the National Lawyer Guild's federal defense hotline at 212-679-2811 The host Margaret Killjoy can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy and instagram @margaretkilljoy. You can also support her and this show by sponsoring her patreon at https://www.patreon.com/margaretkilljoy. Your support has allowed us to get transcriptions available of the podcast for folks who gain information better that way! Transcript 1:13:23 SPEAKERS Margaret, Mo Margaret 00:14 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the End Times. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy. I use she or they pronouns. In this week's episode I'm talking to Moira Meltzer-Cohen, who is a lawyer—not just any lawyer, but is my lawyer. It's kind of weird that you get to use the possessive on lawyers. We're going to be talking about repression and how the government likes to crack down on protest and revolt. And we're going to be talking about, basically, know your rights, like how to interact with the police and how to interact with the feds. We'll also be answering some questions that you all had from social media. And we keep referencing the fact that we're going to talk about grand juries in this episode, but during the course of the interview we don't in fact get to it because Mo is a remarkably busy person, as one might imagine, in this particular time in the world, and didn't have time. And also, the episode was already gone on for about an hour. We will almost certainly have her back at some point in to talk about grand juries because they're an important thing to understand from an anti repression point of view. However, at the moment, primarily, people are dealing with police and federal law enforcement. And so that's what we focus on. This podcast as a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Jingle 01:39 Rebel Steps is a podcast about taking action. Season one offered insights into how individuals can join movements. Season two focuses on the ways people can work together to build these movements. Organizing in groups presents many challenges. How do you care for each other and protect each other in the midst of political struggle? How do you lift up the voices of everyone in your group? How do you work through the inevitable disagreements? All of these questions have complicated answers. As I explore these questions. You'll hear voices and stories from my community in New York City, spotlighting a range of organizers from the Metropolitan Anarchist Coordinating Council, Outlive Them, Pop Gem, Democratic Socialists of America, Libertarian Socialist Caucus, and more. Just like the first season, I returned Paulo Friere's quote, "What can we do today, so that we can do tomorrow what we cannot do today," but this time with the realization that building our capacity will necessarily happen alongside others. Find Rebel Steps on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts and check us out on Twitter or Patreon. Margaret 02:55 So, welcome to the show, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then any organizational or political affiliations that you feel like make sense with what you're going to talk about. Mo 03:07 Sure. I'm Moira Meltzer-Cohen, everyone calls me Mo. I am—my pronouns are she are they and I am affiliated with the National Lawyers Guild, and I am a non-denominational anti-authoritarian. Margaret 03:26 We seem to be getting a lot of those recently. I think that's good. So I first met Mo when we were both working on a campaign for someone named Jerry Koch who was a political prisoner who, I guess, is now a lawyer. Mo 03:39 Yeah, he is. Margaret 03:41 And that's amazing. And, and yeah, Mo was just out of law school and then managed to write a motion that got someone free in a way that I think, to my understanding, kind of changed some of the ways that grand jury defense is done in this country or is understood in this country. Is that overly hyperbolic, or? Mo 04:03 That is hyperbolic. I wrote a motion that is a type of motion that has been used since I think the 60s or 70s called a grumbles motion. It just, it's unusual, partly because grand jury litigation is unusual. But I don't think it was precedent-setting but it was—I didn't expect it to work. And it did. Margaret 04:32 Okay, so you saved, you changed everything and—but you did very specifically set someone free right out of law school, as I understand, or right after passing the bar. And so we met doing work on that campaign and then ever since then Mo has been kind of the card that I keep in my pocket and a literal and metaphorical sense of—I mean, I've literally had nightmares where the police are holding me and I'm like, "I have to call Mo, you have to let me call Mo!" And then like Mo has come in and saved me. Mo 05:09 I promise I'll do my best. Margaret 05:11 And Mo has also done a lot of work for a lot of trans prisoners, including you were part of the most recent campaign to get Chelsea Manning out of jail. Is that right? Mo 05:21 That's right. I did not represent her while she was serving time after the court martial. Margaret 05:28 Mm hmm. Mo 05:29 I represented her more recently, when she was subpoenaed to give testimony before a federal grand jury, and was then confined as a result of her refusal to do so. Margaret 05:40 Okay. And so I wanted to get Mo on the show because I mean, for one thing, you know, she's an amazing lawyer. And also because so much of her work has focused specifically on anti-repression work. And, you know, okay, so what am I doing talking to a lawyer on a show that's extensively about preparing for, you know, end times or bad times or crisis or disaster? And, I mean, if you're listening to the show, you probably understand that revolt is absolutely an essential part of individual community and even probably species survival at this point. And, of course, revolt will always come with legal consequences, because what does one revolt against but a system that usually has laws and things. And so that's why we have lawyers on our side. And so I want to talk to Mo today about—we're gonna talk about a couple specific things, and we're gonna answer some questions that came from you all. And some of the stuff that we're going to talk about is we're going to talk about what to do in terms of when the police—like how to interact with the police, how to interact with the feds, and then we're going to talk about grand juries, which are annoyingly complex and not a simple thing to wrap your head around. But I think a very important part of repression and anti-repression to understand. Does that kind of cover what you're hoping to talk about? Mo 07:04 Sure. Margaret 07:06 Okay, so let's start with the real basics. Let's start with a Know Your Rights. You know, I'm walking down the street, maybe I'm leaving a protest, and the police are like, "Hey, come over here, we want to talk to you." What do I do? Mo 07:22 Um, I mean, the first thing that I want to say is some of this varies state by state. But by and large, you know, you do have some pretty established constitutional rights. And the first thing I would say is if you're approached by an officer, and they ask you a question, you know, in the same way that if some stranger walks up to you, and starts giving you the power quiz, you have no obligation to stick around and talk to them. You know, you have no obligation necessarily to stick around and talk to the police. So the very first thing that you would do is you would say, "Am I free to go? Or am I being detained?" And if they say, "Well, you're not being detained," then you bounce. If they say, "No, you are being detained." Ask why. They might not tell you, they might make fun of you, they might tell you something that's completely off the wall. They might say, "Well, you fit the description." But whatever they say or don't say, it's information. And I want to be very clear that, you know, asking these questions, it's not magic. Very often the police neither know nor care what your rights are, you know, most of this stuff that I'm going to say isn't particularly powerful in the moment of a law enforcement interaction. But it's still really important to ask these questions and invoke the rights that I'm going to try to teach you to invoke, because later when you're in front of a judge, if you have done this, then your lawyer can make certain kinds of arguments and try to mitigate the harm that can be caused by interactions with law enforcement in ways that, you know, your lawyer can't mitigate that harm if you have not invoked your rights. Margaret 09:22 Okay. Mo 09:23 So you want to say, "Am I free to go? Or am I being detained?" Because if you don't ask anything, you know, any further interaction that you end up having with that officer is going to be construed as something that you consented to. Margaret 09:39 Right. Mo 09:40 Right. And so if they say you're free to go, bounce, if they say you're being detained, ask why. Make a note of what the officer looks like. If you can see their badge number, make a note of it. If you can see their name, make a note of it. I mean, mentally obviously—you are probably not standing there with a notebook. If they ask if they can search you, say no. If they try to search you, say, "I do not consent to this search." Very often it can be really important to say, "I do not consent to this search," very loudly and clearly so that other people around you and their videos can pick it up. Right? Because an important part of being able to argue that you invoked your rights is being able to provide evidence that you invoked your rights. Margaret 10:30 Right. Mo 10:31 Right. So you want witnesses you want people's video to reflect that you said you didn't consent to a search. Margaret 10:40 Yeah, one of the things... go ahead. Mo 10:42 Well, again, this doesn't mean that they're not going to search you. Margaret 10:45 Do they have a right to search you for like—like I used to, you know, when I was more of a street kid and squatter and things like that, I would be stopped by police on a regular basis, two or three times a day, at least twice a week for about a year or two. And one of the things that always seemed like it was part of that encounter was at the very least sort of their right to basically, like, pull the clip knife out of my pocket. Mo 11:11 Mm hmm. Margaret 11:11 And that kind of thing. Like, what are they allowed to do, regardless? Mo 11:15 So they're allowed—if they have a reason to stop you, they're allowed to pat you down over your clothes to look for weapons in the event that they have a reasonable fear for their safety. Now, who gets to define reasonable? Margaret 11:30 Them, I'm guessing. Mo 11:31 Yes, they get to define reasonable and this is relevant, basically, you know, all the time, right? Who defines the word reasonable? It's going to be the police, at least until you get in front of a judge. This is relevant, for example, with another thing I was going to say, which is you have a right to film the police, you have a First Amendment right to film the police and the performance of their official duties from a reasonable distance. Margaret 11:58 Mm hmm. Mo 11:59 Right. So it's not a crime to film the police, it can be unlawful to do anything that the police can construe as interfering with their duties. Margaret 12:09 Okay. Mo 12:09 Right. So, you know, certainly I would advise someone against getting in between an officer and the person they're trying to arrest in order to get a better shot. You know, and if the police ask you to back up, what I think can be useful is to say out loud, I'm backing up and take one step back. Right. Margaret 12:34 Yeah, that's usually what I've managed to do is basically be like, "Okay, how far do you want me to go," and then I walk like two feet. And I'm like, "This good? I'm here now." But that's actually usually me kind of often trying to—I would never interfere with the police, but maybe have the police pay more attention to me than the people that they would prefer to be paying attention to in that moment, is something that sometimes occurs to me. And so I try to play this very polite game of, you know, continuing to engage them to ask them very specific questions about how far I'm backing up. Mo 13:12 Okay. Margaret 13:14 This is gonna be an episode where I tell my lawyer many things that Mo probably wishes I didn't do. Now that I realized… Mo 13:22 That—you know, just as long as you're aware that this conversation is not privileged. Margaret 13:27 I don't have—Wait, no, but I thought this whole podcast was privileged now, I thought that was the whole thing? Mo 13:34 Oh, I don't think there's a podcaster privilege. Margaret 13:38 Interesting, interesting. But if I have enough clout, then I'm immune to the criminal justice system? Mo 13:46 Well, I mean, I think that that's clear, because we can see what happened to certain Twitter accounts, once people stopped having enough clout. Margaret 13:54 Mm hmm. Okay, so just to continue to interject with like, along the way of like—yeah, whenever I've done that, "Am I being detained?" I've actually had a much higher success rate than I initially thought I was going to have with that tactic. Mo 14:12 I think that if you have an opportunity to ask, you may have pretty good success with it. The thing that usually happens with most of my clients is there's never an opportunity to ask, right? People are—I mean, I work a lot with protesters. So I do a lot of stuff with mass arrests. And in a mass arrest... You know, I have had one experience where I observed a group of people who were kettled, shouting in unison, "Are we being detained?" And the officers eventually determined that they didn't have a basis to detain them, and so they let them go. Margaret 14:53 Amazing. Mo 14:54 But typically in a mass arrest, cops show up, use arrest as a form of crowd control, and everybody sort of gets taken off the street with—and there's no opportunity to say, "Am I being detained?" You're just knocked to the ground and flex cuffed. But to the extent that you have an opportunity to ask these questions they can be, you know, it can sort of force a decision. And sometimes that decision will be, you know, we don't actually have enough cause to hold this person. Margaret 15:27 Okay. Mo 15:29 I think the more important stuff is being able to, you know that's—asking, "Am I being detained? And if so, why?" Is good for information gathering. Even if it doesn't result in you being released. Right? Saying, "I don't consent to a search," is really important down the road, because if you've explicitly said that you do not consent to a search, anything that may have been yielded or found in a search that you haven't consented to can be suppressed as evidence, right? It would be considered an unlawful search or it could be considered an unlawful search, a violation of your Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure. And a judge might say, "Well, yeah, okay, we found this thing on you during a search, but we can't use it as evidence against you because we obtained it— the police obtained it unlawfully." Margaret 16:31 Okay. Mo 16:32 Right, Margaret 16:32 At what point are they allowed to—go ahead... Mo 16:35 So they are allowed to pat you down over your clothes to check for weapons if they have a reasonable fear for their safety which, of course, they get to define. And that definition is expansive, you know, so in order to then search you, you will be—if you're arrested—you will be searched incident to arrest, okay, right? The circumstances under which they are, quote, "allowed" to search you are extremely complicated, extremely fact specific, can vary from state to state, are different depending on whether you are walking around, are in a car, are in your home, are in someone else's home, are in someone else's car. So I don't think it's particularly useful to get too into it, because in any event, you're not going to win an argument with a police officer who wants to search you. Margaret 17:29 Right. Mo 17:29 Right. The sort of bottom line here is to say, "I'm not consenting to any searches." Now that said, people know, really, what is safest for them. And sometimes, it can be safest to consent to a search. I'm not going to advise you to consent to a search, but I'm going to respect your expertise about your own safety. Margaret 17:55 Okay. Mo 17:56 And that's a personal decision that you're going to have to make in the moment. Margaret 18:00 Right. Mo 18:01 What I want you to understand is that you don't have an obligation—you don't have a legal obligation—to consent to a search, no matter what the police tell you. Margaret 18:13 Right. Mo 18:14 And ultimately, the question of the lawfulness of a search is not a question that could be answered by a police officer, or by you. It's a question that's going to be answered, if at all, by a judge. Later. Margaret 18:28 Okay. Mo 18:29 And so arguing about the lawfulness of a search is probably a great way to escalate things out of control. Margaret 18:37 Right. Mo 18:38 But if there's a way for you to say, safely, "I don't consent to this search." You can do that. Margaret 18:45 Yeah, like kind of ah—when I talk to people, I personally—and this is clearly legal advice, because I'm not a lawyer—I basically tell people to try and be like, polite but firm with police. You know, my literal, like, thing I would just say constantly is, "I'm sorry, Officer, but am I being detained?" And I would like definitely say, "Sir," I would say like, "I'm sorry, Officer," I'd be very polite, but I would always be like, you know, "I do not consent to a search," or whatever. Mo 19:18 And you and I have certain characteristics that make that less dangerous for us to say, than, you know, and so, you know, policing—the issue with policing, it's not about law, it's about power. And the distribution of power is uneven in very predictable ways. So when I'm talking about the law, I want to be very clear that the law is a separate thing from power. It's a separate thing from justice. You know, this is what your rights are, here's how you can invoke them. Margaret 19:51 Right. Mo 19:53 I cannot stress enough that there is a difference between what your rights are and what policing looks like. Margaret 20:01 Yeah. Yep. Mo 20:05 So I'm going to move on from searches. You know, just to reiterate this, again, it is a fool's errand to argue with a cop about whether a search is lawful. What you can do is invoke your right against unlawful searches or against unreasonable searches by saying, "I do not consent to this search." You need to know that if you are arrested, you will be searched when you get to the precinct. If you are arrested, the very first thing that you should do is start saying, "I am not resisting." Margaret 20:40 Okay. Mo 20:40 Because police officers almost universally will start screaming, "Stop resisting," whether or not you are resisting. And it can be really important, again, for evidence that's going to be gathered and presented later if there is evidence that you were saying, "I am not resisting." Margaret 20:58 God, I fucking hate police. Yep. Okay. Mo 21:03 The other thing that you need to say—and this is the one sort of invocation of rights that is powerful and that you do have control over—is I want you to say, and I want you to practice—everyone listening to this, I want you to practice ten times a day saying, "I am going to remain silent and I want to speak to a lawyer." You have to say that you're going to remain silent. Margaret 21:30 Okay. Mo 21:30 And then you'll have to actually remain silent. Because if you don't actually remain silent, you have waived your right against compelled self-incrimination. The Fifth Amendment is in the constitution for a reason. There is never a compelling reason to talk to a cop, before you have spoken to a lawyer. Margaret 21:57 Okay. Mo 21:59 It's okay to tell the cops things that they already know about you like your name, your date of birth, your address. Margaret 22:09 Are you legally obliged to provide that information and or an ID? Mo 22:13 It depends. It depends on what state you're in. Some states are what are called "stop and identify" states where it's an independent crime to refuse to show ID or to refuse to identify yourself. Other states, it's not a crime. But it's—it can make your life much harder. So for example, in the state of New York, if you're stopped on the street for something that would be considered a ticketable offense, a summonsable offense, a cop can write you a summons on the street and cut you loose if you show them your ID. And if you don't, they will take you in and process you until they can confirm your identity, which is, you know, four to eighteen hours out of your life that you're not getting back. Margaret 23:01 Right. Mo 23:02 So, you know, my advice is typically that anything you can do to abbreviate an interaction with law enforcement is desirable, like the longer and interaction with law enforcement goes on, the less good it is, the less safe you are. Margaret 23:17 So my general understanding of like, where that would come in, and the process would be like, a cop is like, comes up to me and is like, "Let's see your ID." I say, "Am I being detained?" And if he says, "Yes, you're being detained," I ask, "What for?" And then he gives me a bullshit reason—I've literally been told because I don't know who you are. That was once the reason I was being detained. Which I was like, I had a feeling that wasn't gonna work well in court. But I also had a, like, at that point it seemed to me that there'd be no reason to argue, because a cop is allowed to say whatever they want, as far as I understand about why you're being detained, even if it's not later justifiable. So at that point, once I'm being detained and they want to see my ID, at that point I give them my ID. That's like the understanding that I've been under for a long time. Would that... Mo 24:02 If they give you a chance. Right? I mean, this is all—I want to be really clear. again, like, when I'm saying, "Oh, these are the questions that you ask," a lot of times, you don't get an opportunity to ask all of these questions. Right? So even if you get a chance to say, "Am I being detained?" So for example, I was arrested once doing jail support. And what happened was that the cop rolled up and said, "Let me see some ID," and I said, "Am I being detained?" And then I got thrown in a van. Margaret 24:34 Right. Mo 24:35 Right. So... Margaret 24:42 Yeah, so your mileage may vary. Yeah. Mo 24:44 Yeah, mileage may vary. That's exactly right. Margaret 24:47 Okay. Mo 24:47 Um, again, the police very frequently neither know nor care what, what the sort of phases of an interaction are legally supposed to be. So, you know, I have a lot of people ask me things like, "Well, when can the cops kick in my door?" And, of course, the answer is: whenever they want to. The cops can kick in your door at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all. The question is, what do they say later to justify it? And again, that's sort of the same thing in this situation. So, if you are asked for ID, it can be really important to know, given what whatever state you're in, whether it is an independent crime to refuse to identify yourself. In some states it is and in some states it is not. In all states, I would venture to say, it can make your life much more difficult if you refuse to give ID. I want to take a second and talk about trans people and the apparent, you know, the inability of police to perceive gender non-conforming people as who they are based on their ID. Margaret 26:09 Right. Mo 26:12 You have a First Amendment right to use any name you want to use, whether or not it is your legal name, as long as you are not using that name to avoid civil or criminal liability. Margaret 26:26 Okay Mo 26:27 That said, if you're having an interaction with law enforcement, you know—again, this is a safety calculation that you are going to have to perform for yourself—it is not a crime to tell the police, you know, whatever your real name, the name that you use, to give them that name. It can make your life harder. Margaret 26:53 Right. Mo 26:54 And depending on what state you are in, there may or may not be any training or protocols for the detention of trans prisoners. Right? So you shouldn't get charged for giving the police a name that is not your dead name. But it can present some complications with respect to, like, what happens if they print you, or what happens if they look at your ID, or they demand your ID and the name is different and, you know, if your appearance is different than your ID. Margaret 27:38 That's why I always refer to, instead of a dead name, I tend to think of it as my Fuck You name. Because the only people that I'm giving my legal name to are people like, fuck you, like, I don't care about you to tell you my actual name. And obviously every trans person is going to handle that differently, you know, in the same way of like navigating walking through this world. Like, if you go to a demonstration, choosing what your gender presentation is versus like what your ID says it's like, obviously, super complicated. Mo 28:11 Yeah. I mean, it's a whole sort of separate thing that I could like, really get into, but I don't want to minimize it, right? I'm not want to say like, Oh, it's fine to just give the police to tell the police, you're not giving them your state name and to give them your real name. You know, do what feels safest. And I'm not saying that you never will be charged for, like, what would be called, like, false personation. I have certainly—not in quite a while—but I have seen people charged with false personation when they give their real name and not their dead name. It is always immediately dismissed. Margaret 28:56 Cool. Mo 28:58 But it's scary. And it's traumatizing. And it's, you know, it's an act of violence by the state that's targeted to be transphobic. Margaret 29:11 Yeah. Mo 29:11 And it's a shitty power move. I'm not going to say that there aren't consequences to it. Of course, there are. Cops are notoriously transphobic, as are many judges, as are many prosecutors. I suppose, as are many defense attorneys, I guess. But particularly depending on where you are in the country. But I do want to sort of reassure people that, you know, I don't think there are lasting legal consequences for just using whatever name it is that you use and the pronouns that you use, Margaret 29:50 Okay. Mo 29:51 Okay. Margaret 29:52 So, to go back to—okay, in this situation, you're now in jail, and you're saying, "I would like to remain silent," if you do end up talking, you said that that ends up like ruining your—it gets rid of your your right to remain silent. Can you then—you can then re-invoke that? Mo 30:10 Absolutely. Margaret 30:11 Okay. Mo 30:12 Absolutely. So this is really important. So you say, "I'm going to remain silent and I want to speak to a lawyer." Then you remain silent. If the police are asking you questions about, like, "Do you know, do you expect someone at your arraignment? Do you have a lawyer? Would you like a phone call?" Obviously, you know, answer those questions. If they start asking you questions about what you had for breakfast, what your favorite baseball team is, anything that is substantive, my advice would be to stay, "I'm going to remain silent and I want to speak to a lawyer." I genuinely do not think there is a reason to engage with police about sports, politics, music, the weather—literally anything, ever. Margaret 30:55 What if they just want to be your friend? And then you can make friends with them? And then they'll just let you go? Mo 30:59 Mm hmm. Yes, it has never worked. I very frequently say you cannot talk yourself out of an arrest, but you can always talk yourself into a conviction. Margaret 31:11 Mm hmm. Mo 31:13 Please don't talk to cops. Please just don't do it. We really, really want you to invoke your right to remain silent because you cannot unsay something you have said to a cop. Right? If you need to use the bathroom, say you need to use the bathroom. Okay, if you need a drink of water, so you need a drink of water. That said, if they give you a bottle of water, don't touch it to your lips, because they'll take it. They'll take that bottle and collect your DNA from it and put it in a database. Margaret 31:47 Oh god. Mo 31:49 So that's cool. And normal. And totally not dystopic. Margaret 31:55 Yeah. Mo 31:56 Anyway. But if you need, you know, if you have human needs: food, water, a phone call a bathroom, medical attention. Or if someone that you're in with needs those things, say so. Advocate for yourself. Do what you need to do. And then re invoke your right to remain silent. And if they start asking you questions about anything that happened leading up to your arrest, anyone you hang out with—if someone in your cell starts asking you those questions. You know? Don't answer those questions. That's nobody's business. That is information to which the state is not entitled. Margaret 32:35 Mm hmm. Mo 32:36 Right? We don't do their job for them. So invoke your right to remain silent, talk to the extent that you need to talk in order to get your needs met or in order to advocate for other people, and then re-invoke your right to remain silent. Margaret 32:54 How do you get a lawyer in this situation? Mo 32:57 Typically, you are either cut loose at the precinct with some kind of ticket that says, "Come back to court on this day," or you're going to be taken in front of a judge. Typically, if you're taken in front of a judge, you will have a lawyer appointed for you, either at that time or very shortly thereafter. There are states where you have to apply for a public defender. And that process sometimes is very onerous. You know, so you may not be given a lawyer before you, before—I would say—you need one. But you know, you're not going to be when you get in front of a judge, you shouldn't be asked any questions other than "How do you plead?" So there's not a lot of opportunity to incriminate yourself at that point. What I would say is, you need to understand that when I talk about invoking your right to silence, I'm not just talking about things that you say directly to cops. I'm talking about like, anything you say, quote "publicly," not just to a cop, but anything that a cop could discover can and very much will be used against you. So if you have been arrested, don't post about it necessarily on social media. Certainly don't do that before speaking to an attorney. Don't talk about anything that happened leading up to that arrest to anyone except your lawyer or maybe your doctor or your therapist, right? Because those are relationships where there is a privilege, right? Where the things that you say to those people don't have to be disclosed. Margaret 34:40 Like this podcast. Mo 34:42 Right. Like this podcast is totally privileged, Margaret. It falls under the attorney podcast or privilege. Margaret 34:52 Yeah. Okay. Mo 34:55 I'm going to get us fired. Margaret 35:06 Does that kind of cover your rights in casual encounters, detainment, and arrest? Mo 35:11 Yes. Margaret 35:12 Okay. Mo 35:12 Yes, I really cannot stress enough how important it is not to post about protests or unlawful activity or who you're hanging out with at the anarchist bookfair on social media. And if you're doing the live streaming thing, or taking photographs or trying to do some kind of documentation, the people who need to be observed in this situation are police officers because they are the people who have power that they abuse, right? So if you feel very strongly that you need to take pictures at protests, take pictures of the police. Because taking pictures of protesters, even if they're not doing anything unlawful, can have really serious legal consequences for them. So if you see somebody and, you know, the cops can see someone in a photograph who, you know, they believe might have witnessed something unlawful, that person then can be the target of a grand jury subpoena, right? Which we'll talk about in a minute. But I mean, it can be extremely disruptive to somebody to be called before a grand jury, even if they don't know anything about the crime that's supposed to be investigated. So, you know, I just—please, please stop posting pictures on social media. I would like fewer clients! Margaret 36:45 That's how you know you're a lawyer on the good side. "I want fewer clients." Mo 36:51 I want my whole profession to be obsolete. Margaret 36:54 Yeah. Mo 36:55 But in the meantime... Margaret 36:56 Yeah. Um, should we talk about grand juries? Mo 37:03 Yeah, I also wanted to talk about something... Oh, yeah. Don't take pictures of protesters, because, um, there's like a whole group of non state actors, who will doxx you. And we don't need that either. Margaret 37:19 I think that there's somewhere—and it's probably more complex—and this really gets into the—maybe you're the wrong person since you're a lawyer and you have—where you're coming from about it. There is this like, awful balance between, on some level, the visibility of these demonstrations is what has allowed them to generalize. And there's a certain amount of safety that I think that can only be found through the generalization of revolt, right? And I feel like I want people to, like, do a better job of like—I mean, you kind of covered this. It's like if you're going to, you know, film these things, like film the cops instead of the protesters or whatever. But like, the pictures of the burning cop cars are a huge reason why these results are so big. On the other hand, people's lives are ruined, because there's pictures of ruined cop car—burned cop cars. Mo 38:08 Look, I will say this. I say this a lot. People get to make their own decisions about the degree of visibility they want. And so when I'm saying don't take pictures of protesters, you know, what I really mean is like, consent is important. And maybe people who are in those group shots haven't—or those crowd shots—haven't consented to that. Margaret 38:33 Totally. Mo 38:34 And I think that, you know, you don't have to stop talking about your politics on social media. Like saying that you're an anarchist on social media at this point in history is not unlawful. It's still covered by the very First Amendment, and you can do that. And, you know, it doesn't mean—you know, anything that you put on social media, of course, has the potential to invite increased scrutiny of you and your community. And that doesn't mean that the solution is self-censorship. I think the solution is courage. But I want people to be aware of the risks that they may be running and the ways in which they may be inviting increased surveillance. Margaret 39:22 Yeah. Mo 39:23 Of not only themselves, but their friends. Margaret 39:26 Yeah. And especially like, what were you talking about, about shooting pictures of crowds and things like that, you know, because it's a it's a different thing between someone who—and I even, I wouldn't... You know, it's a different thing between posing in front of a burned out cop car with no one else behind you. Which is a terrible idea, like, actually. But it's—obviously if you're taking pictures of people attacking a cop car, it's a very, very different situation. Okay, so we just took a break to talk about how we're going to how we're going to organize the rest of the episode and We determined it would be more fun to cut to some of the questions from Twitter and Facebook first. And because you all had a bunch of questions, and they're not quite the same script that Mo has to give to day in and day out to teach people their rights. So, let's see... So one person wanted to ask about jury nullification and what that concept is and whether or not that's like a useful thing we should be pursuing. Mo 40:36 Um, I think that, as I said before, the law is not always consistent with justice, and certainly is not a one-to-one correspondence. And jury nullification is a concept that acknowledges that. And jury nullification is basically when a jury determines that the person who is on trial did, in fact, engage in the conduct alleged, and that that conduct was, strictly speaking unlawful, but they determined that they believe as a matter of conscience, that the law criminalizing whatever the behavior was is itself so unjust that they refuse to enforce it. And so they find the defendant not guilty, basically, as a matter of justice, even if they know very well that there's no serious debate that the defendant did, in fact, do whatever it is they were alleged to have done. Margaret 41:44 Okay. That sounds gloriously optimistic in a way that I might not share. Okay. Mo 41:49 I think it's—it is something that happens and certainly defense attorneys can advise juries that that is a that is a possibility. A defense attorney can certainly say, you know, you are not required as a jury to come to a unanimous conclusion and, in fact, you must vote your conscience. You are legally required to vote your conscience and so you cannot, you know, you must not allow yourself to be bullied into reaching a verdict or into agreeing with your fellow jurors. You know, I think there are—it has some utility. I think it's a really fascinating concept. I know there's a really lovely illustrated zine about jury nullification. Margaret 42:40 Okay. Mo 42:40 It's by the guy who wrote, "Go the Fuck to Sleep." Margaret 42:43 Oh, wow. Okay. Mo 42:46 Yeah. It's a fascinating concept. It is lawful for a jury to nullify. Margaret 42:53 Okay. Does that take consensus of the entire jury? Mo 42:56 Ah, no. Margaret 42:57 Interesting. Cool. Okay. So then the next question, which I'll say how is was originally phrased and then possibly present a rephrasing? "How do I stop paying taxes entirely and never get caught in Minecraft?" Which I might—the question that I would maybe ask—I actually, I warned you ahead of time that I was gonna ask this question. I clearly am not advo—whatever. Anyway, I would, you know, the rephrasing might be, "What are the means by which tax evasion laws are enforced?" Mo 43:29 The IRS has federal agents, and you can be federally charged for tax evasion. I am a lawyer and my job is not to advise people on what they should do or what they should not do, but to advise them of the potential consequences of various courses of action. Margaret 43:50 Okay, and so the course of action is that if you evade paying taxes, and they can especially—I'm under the impression that if they can prove that you tried to evade paying taxes for like—that you actually, not that you like, fucked up and forgot to pay but that you like, consciously chose not to pay. That's when it becomes like, a bigger deal, right? Mo 44:09 Yeah, I will say this: if you can't pay your taxes, and you are in touch with the IRS about that. They're—they will work with you. If you are trying to evade your taxes, you can end up doing some fairly serious time. So I think that's just a cost/benefit analysis if you're going to do for yourself, my man. Margaret 44:38 Yeah, Mo 44:39 Uh, you know, is it worth it to you to do a whole bunch of time in federal prison? Maybe it is. That's not a choice that I would probably make for myself. And that's not necessarily something that I want for you, question asker, but it's also not my decision. Margaret 45:01 Okay. Yeah, I'm under the impression that especially like, sometimes higher profile people who don't like the government sometimes get audited more than other people. I don't know, this is— Mo 45:14 Yeah they do. Margaret 45:15 And so that is a good reason to consider your public nature versus how carefully you pay your taxes. Mo 45:24 Yeah, I think it's really important to think through, you know, whether your goal is to be visibly smashing the state, or whether you feel more effective avoiding the state. And you often cannot do both. Margaret 45:45 So it's the one crime at a time theory. Mo 45:47 Hmm. I haven't heard that. I'm gonna have to think about that. Margaret 45:52 One crime at a time is like, wear your seatbelt while you're like, have stuff in your car that you don't want anyone to know about. Don't j walk on your way to the demo. You know? That kind of thing Mo 46:05 I, I think it's a—you know, this has to do with ethics, right? Like, what are your goals? Margaret 46:12 Yeah. Mo 46:14 What will help you achieve those goals? How badly will your objectives be undermined if you go to federal prison? Margaret 46:20 Yeah. Mo 46:21 Because unless your name is Mumia, you are not as effective in a jail cell as you are out of one. Margaret 46:32 Yeah. Mo 46:32 I mean, also, how effective could Mumia have been if he weren't in jail cell? Margaret 46:36 Yeah. Okay, so— Mo 46:41 —so that was depressing. Margaret 46:42 Yeah. Let's move on to two related questions. Okay. Well, the first one is: any recommendations for pursuing a law career as a radical? Mo 46:53 Be prepared to be really broke? Margaret 46:55 Mhmm. Mo 46:57 That's pretty much it. You got to love what you do. You got to love the people you're doing it with. Um, I think it's absolutely possible to be a radical and to be a lawyer, but it looks different than most law careers. Margaret 47:15 Yeah. Mo 47:16 The only lawyer I knew before going to law school was my grandfather, who had gone to law school for free at night at the Y in 1932. And he was a labor lawyer. And I didn't really know, up until I went to law school, that there were people who wanted to become lawyers for reasons other than standing up for justice, which is hilariously naive. But I just was like, very sheltered in this way. And so the only role model I had for what it meant to be a lawyer was someone who, you know, whose heroes were Sacco and Vanzetti. Margaret 48:04 You do have a different background than most of my friends. Mo 48:09 That's probably true. Margaret 48:11 I think it's cool. Mo 48:12 And so, you know, when I was deciding to go to law school, it didn't really cross my mind that there were other ways to be a lawyer than the way that I am currently a lawyer. But then, when I was in law school, I was sort of flabbergasted and demoralized by how committed to law people are. Margaret 48:41 Would you say there's—in my head, I think of there's like three alignments of lawyers and like a DND. sense, and that there's people committed to law as like a principle—in the same way that I believe in anarchism, I believe that anarchism can never be attained, but you always strive for it. I've met lawyers who have the inverse of that, right? They're like—because in my mind I'm like, the law doesn't work. Look around. It's a terrible system. And then they're like, yeah, but we try and make it better. But like, not make it better in like a social justice way, but literally, like a law as an abstract concept way. Then there's the anti-authoritarian lawyers who go to law school to learn tools by which to navigate a system that we all have to run into. And then there's the like, in it for the money lawyers. Which is funny because when you're talking about like, if you want to go to law school, prepare to be poor. And it's like—I feel like the average person going to law school, in my head, is going to law school for the inverse of that. But maybe I have a misconception of... Mo 49:46 I don't know. I don't know all the lawyers. I don't know. Sorry. You're gonna have to do some editing Margaret. Margaret 49:53 Okay, that's fine. I'll just cut out my whole part of that—my whole alignment spiel. Mo 49:56 No, I like your alignment. I actually really like your alignment. Margaret 50:00 Okay. Mo 50:00 Um, yeah, I mean, I don't know, if I have a ton of advice. I think it's really hard to be in a profession that incentivizes—frankly, that is like a harm-maximizing model where the law is truly set up almost universally to diminish the self-determination of my clients, and to maximize the self-determination and lack of accountability of the already powerful. And that does not draw meaningful distinctions between things that are unlawful and things that are harmful, such that people are punished for things that are not harmful, and cannot be held accountable for things that are. Like, that is a hard thing to deal with. And on the other hand, like, you know, I love my work. And I feel really fortunate to be able to work with the people that I work with. And be in a community of people who care about the same kinds of things I care about and who struggle along with me to make my job obsolete. Margaret 51:19 Okay. So if you want to be very effective, work all of the time and be very tired, becoming a radical lawyer is a decent course of action. Mo 51:31 Yes. Margaret 51:33 That makes sense to me. That's probably part of why I didn't end up a lawyer. When we were doing that campaign for Jerry, Jerry ended up a lawyer. And I, you know, I toured around the country giving talks about grand jury processes, and lawyers would come some of the talks, and then be like, "Oh, you actually you did that better than they gave it to me in law school." Not to just like—because I'm actually an amazing lawyer, but I'm trying to say. But, um, and I was like, "Oh, maybe I should, maybe I should go into law." And then I was like, wait, no, I like I'm like, spending good chunk of the day, like, just like kind of staring at the leaves or, you know, not talking to people. Um, okay, so to tie into that question, what can non-lawyers do to aid and support a radical law agenda? Mo 52:23 Be on support committees. Do jail support. Write letters to political prisoners—so write letters to prisoners! Join Anarchist Black Cross, join Black and Pink. Get involved with your local chapter of the National Lawyers Guild. That's it. That's it. That's the end. There's no other things you can do. Margaret 52:48 Emotionally support the already-tired lawyers that you know. Bring them food. I would bring you food right now. Before we had—before we started this talk, I was like, I am so tired— Mo 53:00 I wish you could bring me a nap. My at-rest state that since June, is vibrating with exhaustion. Margaret 53:11 Yeah, see, most people don't vibrate when they're tired. Mo 53:16 I am actually, I'm fine. I don't want to I don't want to mislead you. I am generally fine. For some reason. I'm just very tired today. Margaret 53:24 So okay, a couple people wanted to ask about basically how like, now that radicals have guns, now that like leftists have guns, which is sort of new on the scene in the past years or so. I mean, obviously, you know, that goes back way back. Right. IWW is perfectly content to have rifles and the Battle of Blair mountain and all those things. But there's been a lot of questions about how like, lawyers who know gun laws tend to not like leftists, and progressive lawyers tend to not like guns, or not know much about guns and gun law. And so there been some questions about basically how you find that—and because I know there's been a lot of, or at least I've been hearing that sometimes gun laws are being used against, like to target radical communities and things like that. Mo 54:19 There was a lawsuit that was brought after Charlottesville that targeted a lot of the militias that had come down for that stupid rally. But then it also targeted Redneck Revolt, right? I mean, that's like the kind of liberal thinking in the law that like places a lot of faith in The Law without a lot of nuance that I think can be really damaging. So yeah, I mean, I think this question asker has a—it's a perspicacious question. I don't have a great solution. I mean, for example: So one thing I would say is that more radical lawyers in more rural areas are more likely to have a grip on this. Because there are, culturally, there's like, a lot of places in the United States where having guns is really very common, and is not necessarily a matter of political alignment. I would say like, in places like New York City, where the city itself, the municipality itself, has like extremely stringent gun laws. New Jersey also has extremely stringent gun laws. San Francisco, right? There are certain places where there is sort of this, like, liberal distaste for firearms that ends up being kind of a weird proxy for your politics. Margaret 56:01 Hmm. So like, of you have a gun, and then therefore your right wing? Mo 56:07 Yeah. And I don't think it's like—I don't think it's a good thing. And I don't think it's a necessary thing. So I think there are parts of the country where that's the case. But I also suspect that like, places that are more rural and places where it's like much more typical for people to own guns, gun ownership is not a proxy for your politics. And so I think that there are definitely parts of the country where you're not necessarily going to only find attorneys who are conversant with gun law who are NRA members. Margaret 56:43 Right. Mo 56:45 Right. I just, I think that's a problem that is born of a certain kind of geography more than a certain kind of politics. Margaret 56:58 Yeah. Mo 57:00 I don't know a ton about gun law. But I do think that there's—I think that there are attorneys who are not super conservative or like, explicitly white supremacist who do know about gun law. Okay. And I certainly think, you know, let's like actually look at the ways in which state repression has been brought to bear against black and brown communities by a gang law. There are definitely defense attorneys who work with communities that have been subject to intense state repression, that is basically on the basis of gun ownership, who definitely are going to know about self-defense law and gun law, who are not going to be super conservative. They're just not necessarily going to be working with like, ant-racist white people. So yeah, I think that, you know, when we're talking about like, radical attorneys, or movement attorneys, like, I think we are actually doing a disservice to the profession of defenders who might not be doing work that is explicitly politically motivated, but they're definitely defending against prosecutions that are politically and racially motivated. And they have that expertise and are useful resources to our communities. But like, they might not be visible to like anarchist communities because they're actually on the ground doing the work of like day-to-day defending against racialized state repression that maybe isn't legible to white anarchist groups. Margaret 58:54 That's a really good point. And are there folks sort of within the framework of lawyers that I feel like most people in movement spaces that I'm and talk about is the NLG, the National Lawyers Guild—and are there lawyers within the nlg? Who might be more from one way or another versed with gun laws? Or is that still not really as much part of NLG culture? Mo 59:24 I don't think it's super part of NLG culture at this point, because it's only pretty recently that we're seeing people at protests—the people who we defend at protests—being armed. Margaret 59:43 Yeah. Mo 59:44 Like, that's just a more recent development. But again, I think some of this is just about geography. I think like, guild lawyers in places like South Dakota and Oklahoma and West Virginia are probably going to have a lot more fluency with their gun laws than people in New York City or Newark. Margaret 1:00:09 Right. Okay, so we just talked about what to do if the cops are stopping you if you're getting arrested. What about when feds are coming around and knocking on people's doors? Mo 1:00:19 Yeah, so this is actually really important right now. We're seeing a lot of federal involvement in protest in what are more often and typically historically understood to be matters that would fall under state jurisdiction. So we're seeing federal agents policing protests, we're seeing the assertion of federal jurisdiction based on really tenuous grounds. And taken together with, you know, Trump's claims over the summer about Antifa as like a domestic terror organization, and Biden's sort of parallel identification of anarchists as categorically a criminal identity. Federal power is being consolidated and escalated to repress First Amendment protected activity nationwide. So the first thing that I want to say is, we started a hotline. The National Lawyers Guild started a federal defense national hotline, you can reach it at 212-679-2811. For folks to call in the event that they have an encounter with federal law enforcement. Margaret 1:01:23 I'm just gonna say it again. It's 212-679-2811. Okay, sorry. Mo 1:01:29 And so if you call that hotline, you're going to get me and you're gonna be able to have a privileged and confidential—and if you call me back on Signal—a secure conversation about this. What I mean by an encounter with federal law enforcement is not that you got hurt by a federal agent. That's kind of a different issue where you're going to want a civil rights lawyer. Margaret 1:01:54 Okay. Mo 1:01:55 What I mean by an encounter with federal law enforcement is, federal agents call you or visit your home or work, or you or someone close to you gets arrested by federal agents, or you are served a federal grand jury subpoena. This is not the right hotline to call if you've been hurt by police at a protest, although I will refer you appropriately. Margaret 1:02:14 Okay. Mo 1:02:15 And it is not the right hotline to call about whistleblower matters. But if you call this hotline, you can have a privileged conversation about your rights, risks, and responsibilities, and I will do my best to refer you to the most appropriate legal resources in your geographic area no matter where you are. Margaret 1:02:32 Okay. Mo 1:02:33 So the—basically, the most common kind of first contact folks have with law enforcement—with federal law enforcement—is a door knock. So historically, this is the most common way that federal agents interact with activists in person is via door knocks, where they just attempt to approach an individual in their home or work and see if they will speak to them voluntarily. I cannot stress enough that you have no obligation to let law enforcement into your home without a warrant and you have no obligation to cooperate with law enforcement investigation. Certainly not before talking to a lawyer. I am not being contrarian. Declining to answer questions is not evidence of guilt, whatever they may tell you. It is protected by the Constitution. And failing to exercise your rights can be extremely dangerous for yourself and others. There is just never a reason—never a compelling reason—not to consult with a lawyer before answering questions posed by law enforcement. So if an agent knocks on your door, get in the habit of finding out who was at the door before you answer it. If they say, "We just want to talk," it's cops. If it's law enforcement, ask if they have a warrant. And if you're able to do so call your lawyer or call that hotline immediately. Margaret 1:03:58 Okay. Mo 1:03:58 If they have a search warrant, ask them to slide it under the door. Margaret 1:04:05 And then you're looking for a signature on that, right? Mo 1:04:10 Yeah, you want it to have been signed by a judge within the last 10 days. Margaret 1:04:13 Okay. Mo 1:04:14 If it is an arrest warrant, you can walk outside and shut the door behind you. I honestly would say like, ask them if you can surrender yourself later with an attorney. And if they have a warrant and they say no, walk out and shut the door behind you. Because at the very least, you know, you can by surrendering probably avoid further violence and protect your home from intrusion. If it's a search warrant, stand back from the door and read it aloud so that you know what they're allowed to look for and where, and the agents know that you know what they're allowed to look for and where. If they don't have a warrant, you don't have to open the door. Margaret 1:04:59 Okay. Mo 1:05:00 What I want everyone to be able to truthfully say is, "I am represented by counsel, let me get your name and number and I will have my lawyer call you." The reason I want you to be able to say you're represented is that once law enforcement knows you're represented, they can't approach you directly without a warrant. So, you know, either say, "I'm represented by counsel, leave your name and number and I'll have my lawyer call you." Or if you don't yet have a lawyer, say, "Let me get your name and number and I'll have my lawyer call you." And then call the hotline. Margaret 1:05:32 Okay. Mo 1:05:34 So what will happen after that—what should happen after that is your attorney would call them try to figure out what they want, if there's a prosecutor who's working with the investigation, anything else we can find out. And then this attorney can be the sort of conduit between you and the state, to the extent that there needs to be any kind of communication and a bulwark against state intrusion. And honestly, typically, this is sufficient to put an end to the inquiry, because the feds often want low-hanging fruit. They don't like dealing with lawyers. They want to see if people will talk to them voluntarily, and if they won't, that's often the end of it. Margaret 1:06:14 Okay. Mo 1:06:15 If that isn't the end, the sort of two most likely outcomes are an arrest warrant, in which case, you need an experienced criminal defense attorney—preferably one who is really able to listen to your goals, which in the event that you are someone who's like being targeted because of your participation in a social movement, your goals may be less self-interested then defense attorneys are kind of used to or are trained to assume. Margaret 1:06:41 Right. Mo 1:06:44 So your, you know, first most likely outcome if the fed doesn't just go away after hearing from your lawyer is that they issue an arrest warrant. And otherwise, another possible outcome is that you get a grand jury subpoena. And so we'll talk about grand juries in a little bit. Margaret 1:07:05 Okay. And then... So one of the things that I try to talk to you about with people is to remember, don't like, like, really, really don't lie or tell the truth, especially to feds? Mo 1:07:19 Yes. Margaret 1:07:19 Like, it's always best to just never lie or tell the truth. Like, I mean— Mo 1:07:23 It's extremely dangerous to talk to federal law enforcement. Margaret 1:07:27 Yeah. Mo 1:07:31 It's extremely dangerous to talk to federal law enforcement because it is a federal offense to lie to federal agents. And they're, you know, trained to elicit things that can be construed as lies. And if you do lie to them and aren't able to correct, like whatever material misrepresentation of fact, then they can use that as leverage against you to try to get you to cooperate in their investigation. Because they'll say, well, you lied to us and that's a five year mandatory minimum. But if you cooperate, we won't prosecute you for the perjury or for the material misrepresentation. Margaret 1:08:13 Right. Which includes like— Mo 1:08:15 So the best thing is to just say nothing, to say, "I'm represented, leave your name and number, and I'll have my lawyer call you." Margaret 1:08:23 Which includes even stuff like, if they ask about your roommate, don't say like, "Oh, she doesn't live here." Mo 1:08:28 Right? Margaret 1:08:29 You know, just literally just the like, shut—you know, ask for a card or whatever, right? Mo 1:08:35 Yeah, no matter what they say, no matter what they say to you: "Leave your name and number and I will have my lawyer call you." Margaret 1:08:42 Okay. And then at that point, they call the hotline, and everything works out well, from then on. Mo 1:08:49 I cannot anticipate the behavior of police and prosecutors. Margaret 1:08:54 Ah, interesting. Okay. Mo 1:08:55 But I will say that typically, in my experience, things work out less badly if you call a lawyer. Yeah. Than if you talk to federal agents on your own. Margaret 1:09:08 Is there from a legal point of view—a lot of the advice that's going around right now in social movement circles that I tend to appreciate is the idea that if you get visited federally, there's no reason to keep that to yourself. Mo 1:09:19 No, absolutely not. Margaret 1:09:20 Because they know they visited you, so... Mo 1:09:23 Of course. Margaret 1:09:25 And letting people know that you got visited I think helps make people paranoid and then make bad decision—no, um, help people like be aware of their own risks. Mo 1:09:34 Here's the thing, state repression exists 100% of the time. Sometimes you're fortunate enough to get a reminder. Margaret 1:09:41 Yeah. That's so dark. Is that the note we're ending on? Mo 1:09:47 Sorry. Margaret 1:09:47 No, it's okay. It might be the note we're ending on. Mo 1:09:50 Oh, I'm so sorry. Margaret 1:09:55 Well, thanks for being on and we'll try and have you on in the future when you have a chance to talk about grand juries. But for now it seems like police and federal agents seem to be the primary things we're dealing with, at least at this moment. So. Mo 1:10:08 Yeah, in most parts of the country, that's the case. I think that might change. Margaret 1:10:11 Yeah. Mo 1:10:12 In the coming months, but yeah, we'll see. Margaret 1:10:20 Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, then please tell people about it. Actually, also write down the NLG federal defense hotline number, which is 212-679-2811. And it'll be in the show notes. But you know, write that shit down. I guess, keep it by your door. God, what a dark time. But, you know, that's a thing. And so if you enjoyed listening to this episode, please tell people about it. Please tell people about it on social media, please like and comment and review and subscribe and do all the things that tell algorithms to tell other people to listen to it. And also just, you know, tell people in person. That's been happening more and more, and it's really heartening to see. It makes the effort of this worth it. And also this week is the first week that we have transcription that's coming out alongside the episode and I'm very proud of that and very excited about that. And that's I've been able to hire someone to do the transcription who is a single parent and certainly could use the work and that's thanks to y'alls support. If y'all want to support financially, you can. You can support this podcast by supporting me directly on Patreon. My Patreon is patreon.com/margaretkilljoy. And if you back me there, then there's all kinds of zines and music and various things up there. And also, if you make less money than I do, like, if you live off of less money than I make on Patreon in a month, don't back me on Patreon unless you really want to but, you can just message me and I'll get you all of my stuff for free. Because that's the way that money should work. And as much as money should—money really shouldn't exist—but that's completely beside the point. In particular, I would like to thank Chris and Nora and Hass the dog, Kirk, Willow, Natalie, Sam, Christopher, Shane and The Compound for making this episode and the show possible. Yeah, that's all I got. Stay as safe as you can. Actually, you know, there's one thing that I want to focus on, there's like something that that most that really gets at something where, you know, what matters is courage. And courage is not—this is my own words of it or probably some shit I stole off a meme on the internet or something—but courage is not the absence of fear. It's the overcoming of fear. And in order to stay safe, we need to stay brave. The bunker mentality is the cowards mentality. I should stop recording now. Have a good week.

BE SURE TO SEE THE SHOWNOTES AND LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE HERE Eve Picker: [00:00:10] Hi there. Thanks so much for joining me today for the latest episode of Impact Real Estate Investing. My guest today is Charmaine Curtis, who's had a significant career as a real estate developer on the West Coast. She owns her own company, Curtis Development and Company, and she's focused on impactful housing projects trying to crack the affordable in the land of unaffordable. But we're not video blogging, so you probably don't know that Charmaine has two strikes against her. She's a woman and she's Black. And if you've ever wondered what that's like, here's a chance to learn. Charmaine says that she didn't know what she was up against until she was in her 30s, when reality struck. "How much more personal wealth would I have, she wonders, if I were a white man?"   Eve: [00:01:12] Be sure to go to EvePicker.com to find out more about Charmaine on the show notes page for this episode and be sure to sign up for my newsletter so you can access information about impact real estate investing and get the latest news about the exciting projects on my crowdfunding platform. Small Change.   Eve: [00:01:36] Hello, Charmaine, it's just lovely to have you on my show.   Charmaine Curtis: [00:01:40] Well, it's really nice to meet you.   Eve: [00:01:42] Yes, I hope we meet in person some day ...   Charmaine: [00:01:45] Me too.   Eve: [00:01:45] ... when this silly pandemic is over, right?   Charmaine: [00:01:49] Yes.   Eve: [00:01:50] So, I wanted to ask by, start by asking you what, what drew you into real estate?   Charmaine: [00:01:59] It was a very serendipitous and intentional way. I got a master's degree in urban planning from UC Berkeley with every intention of being a planner and, you know, doing my part to save the world. And then I got jobs as, not counterplanner kind of jobs, which is, I think that most people think of planning, they think of people who are sitting at a desk in a municipal building and, you know, giving people information about what they are or not allowed to do on their properties. I worked for the redevelopment agency in Berkeley. But my first job, first of all, was working for Libby.   Eve: [00:02:35] Oh.   Charmaine: [00:02:35] Doing market studies. Yeah. You probably didn't hear that part.   Eve: [00:02:39] No.   Charmaine: [00:02:39] Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, Libby was the first person I worked for out of grad school.   Eve: [00:02:45] For our listeners, Libby, Libby Seifal heads up a growing women's development collaborative that we're both part of. So backgrounds. Go ahead.   Charmaine: [00:02:54] So. I went to work for the city of Berkeley, for the redevelopment agency, and I was just a young whippersnapper who threw out into the wilderness when they were trying to expand ... into a couple parts of the city. And, so I got chewed up in that process with very little support and realized I was really not interested in being a public employee. But I didn't know what I wanted to be at that point, because I had just spent these years getting a graduate degree. And then I serendipitously was introduced to a developer who was starting his own company and looking for a young whippersnapper to come and work for cheap and help him build this company. So, that's what happened, that, you know I kind of fell into the business, not intentionally, but through that introduction, which, which was great because I got to work on some super exciting projects in San Francisco that were really pioneering. And I got to learn the business, at least that side of the business. It was, it was a for-profit company converting loft buildings or warehouse buildings into lofts, which was a new thing for San Francisco, a very old thing for New York, but a new thing for San Francisco. So, that's how I got into the business. And I did that for a few years and really got, you know, sort of trial by fire, learning that, you know, all about entitlements and actually worked on one of the first low-income housing tax credit syndications in the country.   Eve: [00:04:32] Oh.   Charmaine: [00:04:32] We did all kinds of, it was just, it was a wacky thing. You know, some of it was consulting work that we did for others. But so, I got, I got a real broad range of experience in that, in that company.   Eve: [00:04:47] Kind of always the case when you're in a small company, isn't it? You get to do everything because there's no one else to do it.   Charmaine: [00:04:54] Yeah, and small was me and him. That was it was just the two of us at the beginning. And it was really, it was a great experience. And then it was a challenging experience as the company was growing. And I kind of felt like I was not able to grow as much with it at some point because other people were brought in. And so I decided to move on. And that was in the early 90s. And I decided I really wanted to learn the affordable housing side of the business and build some affordable housing. I mean, I was sort of, back to, you know, my part and trying to save the world, and I got a job working with an organization, it was called Catholic Charities at the time in San Francisco, but was later acquired, shall we say, by the Sisters of Mercy, who were starting their own development, affordable housing development, company, which is now, as you probably know, a pretty large national company, a non-profit, and based in Denver. And so that was really an interesting transition from being part of the male dominated Catholic Church to moving into the female dominated part, which was a revelation. And so many amazing, I mean, the women who were, who started that organization, including Sister Lillian Murphy, who died last year, I think, were just extraordinary women in every way, just in terms of their true passion for providing affordable housing and alleviating poverty, you know, trying to make a dent in poverty, not just, you know, putting people in buildings. And just because they were brilliant, you know, any of these women could have run a successful for-profit development venture. But, you know, they were nuns, and so they put their talents into building an operation to build more and more affordable housing, which is, now it's just, it's, it is, as I said, one of the largest nonprofits in the country. And, you know, that was also super informative experience for me. Also a burnout, because, you know, if you've worked in affordable housing, you know that at least here in California what it takes to put an affordable housing development together is like 10 pieces of funding, small pieces of funding from, from multiple sources and then trying to marry those sources. And the brain damage and the transaction costs of affordable housing is excessive. I was also, you know, I was being a project manager, and then I was, I was managing people, and then also managing projects, which just totally a recipe for burnout. You just can't do both.   Eve: [00:07:52] Right.   Charmaine: [00:07:53] I decided to take a break, and actually decided to go to film school, which I did ...   Eve: [00:07:59] Oh wow.   Charmaine: [00:07:59] Which I did well. And I went to film school at San Francisco State, and for a semester, and during that time, I was also working and doing consulting work for Mercy and others, and to support myself. It was something that I was passionate about, but it was also something that, you know, I didn't feel I had the financial bandwidth to pursue.   Charmaine: [00:08:28] I grew up in a working class family and I wasn't really intending to be a working class person, myself. You know, the goal was to move beyond that. And to do my family proud, and to do myself proud in terms of being able to do what all generations want to do, which is just do better than the one before or the ones before, especially when you're your Black person in in this country. And I had opportunities growing up because I was recruited into a program called A Better Chance. And I left my home in Cleveland to move to Minnesota where I went to high school for three years, and went back home on vacations. That program is a program that was founded on the East Coast back in the late 60s, early 70s, to identify promising young people, kids in inner city areas who were in crappy schools and to give them an opportunity to go to, initially boarding schools on the East Coast, but it expanded to the school like I went to in the Midwest, which was a public high school in a really wealthy suburb. So, I ended up getting into Dartmouth College after that. And so, you know, I was a smart kid and I had these opportunities and, you know, and I seized them. But, you know, getting those opportunities and taking advantage of them doesn't mean that you kind of leave behind all of your, you know, the baggage of coming from a family that, where my mother, everybody worked two or three jobs. And my mother grew up picking cotton in the South. And, you know, it's really not until, I would say probably in the last 10 years of my life or so, that I've really been able to sort of think about the impact, the sort of generational impact of, of poverty and, you know, slavery and racism in this country.   Eve: [00:10:29] Yeah, well, it sounds like in one generation you've come a long way.   Charmaine: [00:10:34] Indeed. I mean, I'm the one who from my immediate family that left Cleveland and, you know, kind of made my way in this insanely expensive world of San Francisco. So, after that, I kind of did some consulting on my own, and then when I went to work for a company, there was a for-profit developer. But they develop both market rate and affordable housing, which was kind of the best of all worlds for me. And I ran the multifamily part of that company and under a really great boss who is still somebody who I'm really close to. Art Evans, who was a, I think, a real visionary in the, in the field. And who came out of a redevelopment background and held that vision of both doing well and doing good. And I would say probably more doing good, ultimately. Art, he did a lot of really great work and ended up getting clobbered like a lot of people in the, in the Great Recession of 2008, 2009.   Eve: [00:11:36] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:11:36] And then, I just did the addition the other day. I've been out on my own as long as I've worked for other people in the business. I've been on my own since 2004, and started out doing my own development, building condos in the East Bay and working on some stuff up in Seattle. And at the time I thought I had a financial partner who I thought was going to back my business, but that ended up not happening. And so I really ended up on a shoestring putting these deals together, between my own capital, and back in those days before the recession, you could do really high leverage ...   Eve: [00:12:11] Right, right.   Charmaine: [00:12:13] ... with participating debt and other kinds of financial participation by investors. And so, anyway, that was, that ended up being a, not a wise thing under the circumstances, which, of course, no one could have anticipated what was coming.   Eve: [00:12:28] No one. No one. That was a disaster.   Charmaine: [00:12:31] Yeah. And so, I built a couple of really nice projects that were in, what I would call transitional neighborhoods, which was the focus of my business plan, which was looking around the edges of, and looking at, you know, where people in San Francisco were fleeing to, frankly. Which was parts of Oakland and Berkeley, and seeing that those neighborhoods were ripe for ...   Eve: [00:12:57] Yes.   Charmaine: [00:12:57] ... change and also wanting to build an entry level product, not trying to ...   Eve: [00:13:03] Not luxury.   Charmaine: [00:13:03] ... not luxury, not, I would, I've never been interested in that, which I think was ultimately one of the reasons that my potential financial partner decided that he didn't want to invest in me, because I wasn't thinking that way. I wasn't thinking huge and expensive. My interest really is much more in transformation of neighborhoods in a relatively organic manner.   Eve: [00:13:26] And isn't that in the end, a little bit more recession proof, or a lot more recession-proof.   Charmaine: [00:13:31] Oh my God, if that was exactly my thinking at the time. Yeah.   Eve: [00:13:35] In 2008, 2009, I had a number of buildings in Pittsburgh that I had redeveloped, sort of against the grain. They were transformational. They were, I don't want to say luxury products, but they weren't affordable because I couldn't, just couldn't get the numbers right. But they were different. And honestly, I barely felt the recession. It was very odd because they were in underserved neighborhoods and places that most people weren't looking at, just as you said, on the edges. Right?   Charmaine: [00:14:05] Yeah.   Eve: [00:14:05] It was an interesting learning experience for me.   Charmaine: [00:14:09] Yeah. You know, if I'd been at a different stage in those projects, I might have been able to pull it out. But one was not yet complete. It was about 75 percent done. And the other one was basically complete.   Eve: [00:14:21] Oh yeh, almost done, yeh.   Charmaine: [00:14:24] We were just starting sales. So, it was, you know, lenders were not feeling it.   Eve: [00:14:33] That's really painful.   Charmaine: [00:14:33] Oh my God.   Eve: [00:14:34] Oh, that's painful, you know.   Charmaine: [00:14:36] It was awful. And it really, I think took me a good 10 years to recover both financially and emotionally from it. Frankly, it was really, it was devastating. It was, you know, I talked to, I was talking to one of the local developers here who's done well and I think comes from wealth. And  that, he said to me we were at a conference or something and he said, I personally lost six million dollars. And I'm like, oh, really? Well, I kind of lost everything except for my house. And so, you know, sorry, but our pain is not equal.   Eve: [00:15:09] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:15:09] So, it, yeah, it's, that's the difference, you know for me in a way that crystallizes the difference between being a Black woman who comes from where I come from, with my sensibilities. Right? Not just, I didn't get into development, too, I mean, I think maybe initially I did kind of get into development to become a rich person and, you know, prove that that's possible for a Black woman to do that in the industry. But it's the difference between being, you know, someone who doesn't come from resources versus someone who does. And who is then able to build more races on top of those resources, that provide the cushion that you need when the shit hits the fan. So. It was a crystallizing experience for me that way, in terms of, the just the stark difference. Everyone was not impacted equally by that. What happened, for sure. Since then to, that my daughters were born in 2008. I was lucky to, you know actually marry later in life and have these two girls with my husband. And that was 2008. While the world was crashing down around me, I was also pregnant and with twins and ...   Eve: [00:16:20] Oh!   Charmaine: [00:16:20] So, they were born in late 2008 and I spent the next few years just rebuilding, basically, and working on a really interesting project I worked on exclusively for a few years, which is a master plan and community work and both, internal community work with this public housing project in San Francisco and, and the surrounding community to re-envision what was a 600-unit project over 39 acres into what would be, what will be a 1600-unit mixed-income project and ...you know, in addition to working all the physical planning, working with the community to get their buy in and support, and working with the folks who live in the public housing to help them envision a better future, and to bring a new way of working with very low-income people. That's ongoing, and that is really, I didn't do on my own, or at all. There were many other people involved in this community building effort and really, in recognizing the trauma that comes with generational poverty and all the, you know, the things that happen to people who live in poverty and that keep them down. And so, that has been, and continues to be, a reasonably successful effort to lift, not just rehouse people in better housing, but to sort of lift them up and provide, protect the developmental health of the littlest ones, in particular, by also helping their parents.   Eve: [00:18:06] yes.   Charmaine: [00:18:06] So, that was a really great opportunity for me to do this amazing work on what will be a transformative project in that part of San Francisco. And now I am doing development on my own or with others and co-development capacity. And I'm still doing, I'm doing development consulting work. That gig with the nonprofit, where I did the master planning work and all that other work, was a consulting gig. And so, you know, really just the last many years been about finding the balance between supporting my family in this insanely expensive town and reinvigorating my development career as a principal, which is where it's at for me because I like to create things, you know.   Eve: [00:18:52] Yes, I know that.   Charmaine: [00:18:54] And in order to create, you need to have some measure of control ...   Eve: [00:18:57] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:18:57] ... which is when I started my business, in 2004, that was a moment when I was just on fire with, with passion to make buildings and be a part of transforming neighborhoods.   Eve: [00:19:10] Yeah.   Charmaine: [00:19:11] And I feel like I've kind of rediscovered that, that passion in the last few years.   Eve: [00:19:16] It's such a great thing to make, like something happen out of nothing.   Charmaine: [00:19:20] Exactly.   Eve: [00:19:20] It's so great. There's really nothing like it.   Charmaine: [00:19:22] Yeah. And it's, I mean, that's really, I'm just a very, you know, goal oriented, like I can see it and touch it and feel it at the end of it, I'm so happy. If I can't touch it, see it and feel I'm like, what am I doing? What is, what is this?   Eve: [00:19:35]  Yes.   Charmaine: [00:19:37] So. I'm definitely a ... touch feel person and love, love to see the results.   Eve: [00:19:43] Oh yeah, me too. So, you are a Black woman in an industry that is incredibly, heavily dominated by white men, and I know that's impacted your work, but I'd love to hear from you ... how.   Charmaine: [00:19:59] You know, I will start answering that question by talking about a TV show I watched last night, which is a new show on Hulu called "Woke." And it's really interesting. I suggest you check it out. It's ...   Eve: [00:20:16] I will check it out. I'm writing it down.   Charmaine: [00:20:18] I think it just dropped last night. And it's based on the life of a cartoon artist, named, I think, Keith Knight, who invented these cartoon characters. And I don't know if the true story is butter and toast, but those were the characters, the cartoon characters in his strip, that he was, that this show was talking about. And how this guy, this Black guy thought that he was kind of exempt from, you know, the impact from being impacted by Blackness in this country until he was taken down by some cops and, you know, thrown to the ground and guns at his head because they thought that he was a mugger who had just been reported, and how that experience transformed him, and his thinking, and his perception of himself in the world. It's the first one, I just watched the first one, and I'm like, oh, my God, that's kind of me in my 30s, you know. I thought, oh, my God, I'm, I'm smart, I'm driven, I work hard, and therefore I will succeed in this business. And, you know, while there's always, you know, when you're a Black person who comes from poverty in this country, I think there's always another part of you that's back there saying, hh, that's not going to happen, Come on. But I, basically I would say I took for granted, for a very long time, what a disadvantage I was at being a Black woman in the business. I thought my smarts was enough. And it, you know, it's just not.   Eve: [00:22:01] And, It should be enough, right?   Charmaine: [00:22:02] Well, yeah. In a in a in a perfect world.   Eve: [00:22:06] In a perfect world. Yeah. Yeah.   Charmaine: [00:22:08] But, you know, in a way I, I think it was liberating to not see that limitation, like, at least not ostensibly. I probably felt it more than I saw it. And you know, and I, I built a great reputation here in this city and this region, parts of the region, anyway. But what I would say honestly and truthfully, and this is, this comes from somebody who was really hard on herself a lot of the time. If I were a white dude in this business with my skills, ability, talent, vision, I would be, you know, five times richer than I am. And have more opportunity thrown at me than I do. You know, it really just took me a really long time to actually come to that conclusion because I'm so driven, and have, and took so much for granted, frankly, about what my smarts and what my drive would get me. That said, you know, if I look sort of relative to where I come from, what my background is, you know, my mother picking cotton, my stepfather working eight thousand jobs to support us, I've done well, especially in this region where it's so hard to live. But would my career have taken a different path if I were a white dude? Absolutely. And I, I think there's a level of just not being taken seriously as a Black person in this industry. It's not even at that level. It's almost just like it's not not being taken seriously. It's just not being seen. And, and .... you're, it's not like you're invisible, but it's almost like you're invisible. Because there's a presumption that especially as a Black woman, I mean, there are some Black men in this industry in the Bay Area who've done well. Not many. I'm going to say three.   Eve: [00:24:17] Yes.   Charmaine: [00:24:17] But as a Black woman, I think it is just, it is just a given on a very subconscious level, for most people that you are not, you don't have what it takes to, you know, to do what white men can do in this business. And I think it's on some level that is something that I internalized at some point in my career. And in addition to, just all the internal stuff that Black people experience in this country, you know, from living in generations of the degradation of racism, that you see and that you don't see. Right? It's almost the unseen stuff that is worse than ... and you've heard, probably heard people say, I'd rather be Black in the south where the racism is just in your face than be Black in the north, where it's, it's implicit and unspoken, but very real nonetheless. It's hard to know, you know, what we were talking about before we started, you started to start recording, it's hard to know what you don't know. It's hard to know how your life and career trajectory would be different if you were who you were in a different body ...   Eve: [00:25:33] Right.   Charmaine: [00:25:34] ... in the body of a white man. So, it's, You know, it's complicated.   Eve: [00:25:40] It's actually quite heartbreaking.   Charmaine: [00:25:42] Yeah.   Eve: [00:25:42] You know.   Charmaine: [00:25:43] Even before the events of this year, I've been, and when I started out in 2004, it wasn't like I didn't understand that I was a Black woman in the business. I did. And part of what I really wanted to prove, and want to prove is that a Black woman, you know, a smart Black woman who is hard-working and can accomplish anything, basically, like no limitation. There are no limitations, you know, and there are, obviously. But there's still that drive in me to prove that a Black woman can be a serious success in this business. How I'm defining that, now, is probably different than it was then, because I am really about creating a different kind of world. I'm not, you know, when I was younger in the business, I was like, this is, I'm going to make a ton of money, I'm going to prove, because the measure of success in this industry is wealth. I've had this conversation with my husband many times. It's like, what a success look like in the development business. If you are a white guy, it looks like, or if you're anybody, it looks like how wealthy you are and how much money you've made. And the world is just the direction that we are moving in. I feel like it is really vital that people like me, and everybody, deploy their talents in the interest of the whole and not just themselves. That's the world I want my kids to be able to grow up in, is a world that's not a winner-take-all world, and so, that's really kind of how I'm thinking more, lately, is how can I deploy my talents in a way that's going to help to create that world where development can be a force for real transformation. And what needs to happen in the industry for that to happen? What conditions need to exist for that to happen? And there's so many different parts of it, I know that you are familiar with because you're a developer.   Eve: [00:27:48] you know what you're saying really rings for me, too, I think when I was younger, I always thought I would figure out a way to fit in to the structure of the world the way it is. And quite a while ago, I heard the first female three-star general of the Army speak, and someone in the audience asked her like, well, how do you fit into that power structure? And she, she drew a circle on a chalkboard and she said, OK, here's the power. And you keep the circle, and you keep trying to get in, and you keep trying to get in, and you keep trying to get in. And eventually you give up and you go over here, and she draws another circle, and you make your own circle of power. And I think that, you know, there are some people who are never going to change that first circle, but then there are the rest of us who want to do something different.   Charmaine: [00:28:35] Yeh, yeh, and it's really about building a movement and, or being part of a movement, and helping to build a movement to a more equitable way of developing ...   Eve: [00:28:44] Yes.   Charmaine: [00:28:44] ... our world. And I've been thinking a lot in the last few years about just how there's sort of two, especially here in the Bay Area, there's really two kind of extreme ends of the spectrum. Where we have a really robust nonprofit community on one end, which is largely, mostly comprised of white people, just as an aside, and a very robust market-rate world of development, which is mostly, also, white people ...   Eve: [00:29:15] Also white people ...   Charmaine: [00:29:15] ... more women on the nonprofit side, for sure.   Eve: [00:29:20] Yes, absolutely, because they paid less. Right?   Charmaine: [00:29:23] Yeah, exactly. And, and they are, you know, they're just, I don't know, I don't know what the difference is. There's so many differences between women and men.   Eve: [00:29:31] It's the same profile in Pittsburgh. I have to tell you ...   Charmaine: [00:29:34] Yeh.   Eve: [00:29:34]  ... it's exactly the same.   Charmaine: [00:29:36] Yeh.   Eve: [00:29:36] It's really interesting.   Charmaine: [00:29:37] But there's a sort of middle ground that's not occupied. And I think that there is a middle ground. I think there should be a middle ground, and that it should be occupied by people like me who want to use their talents to develop in a more equitable way. Which means in a way that really is not profit driven, but in a way that is driven by market principles, in a way. Because I do believe, personally, and I, this may be a controversial statement, I think that the non-profit world is not driven by the same principles that the for-profit world is.   Eve: [00:30:14] Oh, no, I totally agree, I totally agree.   Charmaine: [00:30:16] I've been on both sides. I've seen it. I've seen how I treat my money, like actually my, you know, versus some ...   Eve: [00:30:26] No, absolutely.   Charmaine: [00:30:26] ... government entity that's like three, you know, three things removed from me. So, I do believe there is a real difference. And I've been on both sides, and I developed for my own account, and I know how to drive a deal and move in to reduce the cost to the lowest possible amount while producing something that I don't have to be ashamed of.   Eve: [00:30:49] Well, you're driven, you're driven by urgency, and much of the nonprofit world is not, because they don't have to worry about the costs and staying alive in the same way.   Charmaine: [00:30:59] Right. The cost or the time.   Eve: [00:31:01] Yeah. Yeah.   Charmaine: [00:31:02] And I'm not blaming anybody or anything. This is just the system that we have created.   Eve: [00:31:08] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:31:08] And I really believe, I believe very strongly, and I've been talking about this for, you know, a few years now, that I believe that there is a third way to do development. You know, where I am not interested in trying to, I don't want to generate tons of profits for anybody else. And I don't want to generate, I don't need to generate tons of profit for myself. I would like to make money, a reasonable amount of money, that is commensurate with whatever the level of risk is that I'm taking. And the less risk I take, the less money I make. And the more, the less profit somebody else makes, the more we can use that for the benefit of the people we're developing for. And I've been thinking about that ...   Eve: [00:31:50] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:31:50] ... largely here in the context of missing middle housing, which is truly missing, like, gone, like doesn't exist.   Eve: [00:31:58] Really.   Charmaine: [00:32:00] And I don't know how you do missing middle housing. It's really a fee-driven business. It has to be in, if your heart is in the right place and you're coming at it from the right perspective and in the interest of long term affordability, and not just, you know, a five, 10, even a 15-year old and then flipping and realizing gains ... I think you really you really are coming at it from that perspective of, this is a fee business, this is a fee driven business, which nonprofit development is too, but it's a fee-driven business that brings market-driven principles to the production.   Eve: [00:32:38] Yeah, so you produce something and then it has a life of its own.   Charmaine: [00:32:41] Yeah. And there are many, many elements to this. A lot of people are talking about, you know, modular is one aspect or building innovation, since we build buildings like cave people did, basically, to a large extent. And innovations in financial markets, which means really bringing people into financial markets who are not looking at achieving the, a typical kind of market return that you would get if you were investing.   Eve: [00:33:09] Yeah, well, that's that's the key.   Charmaine: [00:33:11] That is the key.   Eve: [00:33:11] That capital is less greedy.   Charmaine: [00:33:13] Exactly.   Eve: [00:33:13] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:33:14] Taking the greed out of the bit, of this part of the business. And I'm a pragmatist at bottom. And so I'm like, we live in a capitalist world, in society. I'm like, that's, let's just say that, that's what we are. We're going to, that's always going to be a big part of who we are and how we live. And, you know, the nonprofits are doing God's work. But I do believe there is room for a third way to approach how we get stuff done. And we just have to bring, bring all of the all the, you know, creativity and passion, and bring others along into ... Being real about it. Because in the world of social impact investing, I, I hear about it a lot. I have not, I can ,I can't tell you that I've seen one development that I think benefited from whatever that is, at least the kind of development I'm talking about. There's like a new organization in San Francisco that is attracting, I think, real social impact capital. It's still money coming from wealthy people who expect a return, which I actually find that, slightly appalling, because I, I do think that if, you know, the one or even the five percent deployed even a portion of their capital in a way that was like, eventually give me my money back, and I don't expect you to give me any return on it, but I'd like it back someday.   Eve: [00:34:46] I don't mind a return that keeps up with inflation, but I'm with you completely. I posted on Small Change, I've listed projects that are affordable housing and heard complaints about the return not being high enough. And I'm actually, how can I say, unhappy with where we are, because I think the return should be as low as three percent ...   Charmaine: [00:35:08] Yeah.   Eve: [00:35:08] ... to really build affordable housing. And yet, I have to admit, I'm scared of listing a project with a return that low. I had a conversation with an amazing developer of a project just like that that really, you know, should be on that platform. And I don't know if anyone's going to invest.   Charmaine: [00:35:26] Yeah.   Eve: [00:35:27] Because it's not enough money for them. So, if they really want impact. I mean, don't people understand that the higher the return on equity, the less affordable the housing? Because, I don't ...   Charmaine: [00:35:38] I think some people do and some people don't. And I think there's a significant education aspect to this that has to occur so that people do understand that there is a direct relationship.   Eve: [00:35:50] Yeah.   Charmaine: [00:35:50] I think that we will eventually, hopefully be in a world where there is a concept of 'having enough.'   Eve: [00:35:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Charmaine: [00:35:58] If you have a net worth of 100 million dollars, that's enough. And you can then use the rest of whatever you have in a way that is to the benefit of the general good. And those who don't have.   Eve: [00:36:11] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:36:11] And that's really what we need. We need a paradigm shift in how we think about our individual responsibility as citizens of the world.   Eve: [00:36:22] Yeh, and then, of course, there are the small investors who've never had a chance to invest before. You know, where that 500 dollars ...   Charmaine: [00:36:29] Yeh.   Eve: [00:36:29] ... really matters, maybe even more than the millions of the billionaire. Right? And I want them to get a return. It's very difficult. It's very inequitable.   Charmaine: [00:36:39] Yeah.   Eve: [00:36:39] So my next question would be, well, you know, what would you change to make the real estate industry a more equitable place for Blacks and women? Maybe just ignore the rest of them?   Charmaine: [00:36:52] Yeah, you know, I mean, that's obviously, there's no magic bullet. There's no, I mean, we're seeing now in 2020 how deeply ingrained white supremacy is in our culture. A couple hundred years after slavery ended. So, I am not naive about the, and I don't like to be airy fairy and unrealistic about the possibilities. You know, I think that one thing I see in San Francisco happening is that, at least in the nonprofit world, is that nonprofits are making an active effort to hire more Black people on their staffs, which I applaud, especially if you are hiring people and then supporting them in the way that they need to be supported, and not just having people be window dressing. So, how do how do we change the hearts and minds of Americans who don't even perceive themselves as being racist, but who have, you know, probably relatively deep implicit bias, which is a lot of what I was talking about earlier that I have experienced with, that I didn't even know I was experiencing, right? Is the deep, implicit bias of people who think that Black people are not as smart and not as whatever, as others, as whites or Asians, if it is a true awakening or call to action or whatever that's happening now that's also, you know, both sides are kind of awakened. Right?   Eve: [00:38:13] Right.   Charmaine: [00:38:13] But if it's happening and this leads to a reckoning that is not, hopefully, violent, and that doesn't tear us apart, I think that this is a very good thing because I do see more white people that I know than ever before trying to examine their own racism and ... people who never thought of themselves as racist, which is very important because if you think you're not racist and you're white, you are not woke, you are not awake. And so it's very important for, and it's not a blamey thing, it's just like, this is the work. This is the work that must be done, if we're going to change this world so that Black kids have an opportunity anywhere near what a white kid can have in this country. And, you know, begins at that level of zero, you know, like birth and what you are born into. What happens to you between the ages of zero and five, how your psychology is, develops and it's impacted by that and other things, and your sense of agency and capability and power in the world. That's got to start at zero. It is remediable to some extent along the way. Right? And I'm kind of proof of that.   Eve: [00:39:38] Right.   Charmaine: [00:39:39] But, you know, that's like one level of what has to happen. And, and making opportunities or providing opportunities for more Black people and people of color consciously, and not just consciously in the hiring and then bringing in, but then once people are in, giving them what they need, helping them to succeed and not just taking for granted, we did the hire, now we're done. So, there's that level of building opportunity. And I think that we need more Black people in the industry and just getting more Black people in the industry and whatever ways that happens will be a good thing. I did not know until, maybe until I was in graduate school what a developer was.   Eve: [00:40:32] Yeh, I was a bit older, actually.   Charmaine: [00:40:34] Yeah, right. I mean, it's like, it is amazing how many people who I told them, when I tell them I'm a developer, they're like, what is that? Still. Right? So ...   Eve: [00:40:43] Yeah.   Charmaine: [00:40:44] So, teaching these little, kids at a very young age, what the opportunities are in life in general outside of the what everybody thinks of as being a doctor, a lawyer, you know, or a business person, in general, that there is this whole world where how our physical world is created, that is dominated by this industry.   Eve: [00:41:09] Yeah. And, you know, real estate surely should play a really big role in, in shifting generational wealth as well. I'm not, I've been thinking about that, and I think there are ideas, all sorts of ways that that might happen. I'm not exactly sure how yet, but wealth has to do with property ...   Charmaine: [00:41:30] Right.   Eve: [00:41:30] ... not just cash.   Charmaine: [00:41:32] That's right. That's why the wealthiest people own, families in this country up until recently, were real estate families, by and large.   Eve: [00:41:40] Right.   Charmaine: [00:41:42] Now it's tech. But ...   Eve: [00:41:43] Yeah. How do you teach that? How do you make that shift, make that happen?   Charmaine: [00:41:50] You heard me say earlier that, you know, and I have this conversation. I've been having this conversation with a guy I met recently who's a Black guy, who's doing some investing, and he is about, you know, sort of the wealth building, as a Black person in the, in the industry. And I get that, and I understand that, and I don't not support that, but I cannot really abide wealth building amongst a very few people, while other people are out in the cold.   Eve: [00:42:25] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:42:25] That's not sitting right with me anymore.   Eve: [00:42:29] Yes.   Charmaine: [00:42:29] So, I'm torn about it. I mean, you can hear it in my voice. I'm torn about it because I do want to see more Black people succeed, but I want to see a lot more Black people succeed. You know, not just a few.   Eve: [00:42:44] Yeah, yeah.   Charmaine: [00:42:45] So how do we do that? We spread the wealth. You know, we have to find ways to spread the wealth. And that goes back to my comment about needing a paradigm shift in how we think about our responsibilities as humans on the planet, to each other and to our children and to other people's children. I'm interested in building wealth. I'm just not interested in building ...   Eve: [00:43:12] Uber wealth.   Charmaine: [00:43:12]  ... yes, I'm not interested in being, you know (laughter) how many people in the world can have a net worth of ten million dollars? Can everybody? You know, is that a possibility? Is that a..   Eve: [00:43:27] It's an extra interesting calculation to do if you.   Charmaine: [00:43:30] Yeah. Is that a theoretical possibility even, you know? And ...   Eve: [00:43:30] That's really interesting. Or even a million, you know.   Charmaine: [00:43:38] Yeah. What are the, what are the trade offs there? And I don't know what they are. I just know that everybody can't be rich. So then, you know, then I back off, I keep backing away from that, what can everybody, what is enough? And I start with, I really start with, like housing. There's some things people should just absolutely, simply be entitled to. And housing, stable housing, stable, sanitary, decent housing is one of those things. And access to an education and the resources that you need to learn, that are not just about teachers and schools, but if you need, you know, help with your mental health or whatever you need help with to be somebody who's able to learn and be a real contributor. These are basic things. And then we, we do these basic things, we build a better world where there will be more of everybody, more opportunity for everybody.   Eve: [00:44:39] Yes. Well, you're going to make me cry, so I'm going to try harder. I hope everyone who listens will try harder, too. But I've really, really enjoyed this conversation. I feel awful ending it. But I'm going to now.   Charmaine: [00:44:56] Well, I'm looking forward to talking more with you. Yeah.   Eve: [00:45:00] I would love to meet you in person. And maybe there's some joint venture we can do. I love doing development and I love hearing about what, what you're working on. So, thank you very much.   Charmaine: [00:45:10] Thank you, Eve. It's really great talking and, we will be in touch.   Eve: [00:45:23] That was Charmaine Curtis, a real estate developer, a Black woman in a largely white, male industry. It's hard enough to be a real estate developer and make a living at it without those additional two strikes against you. But that is exactly what she is doing.   Eve: [00:46:03] You can find out more about impact real estate investing and access the show notes for today's episode at my website EvePicker.com. While you're there, sign up for my newsletter to find out more about how to make money in real estate while building better cities. Thank you so much for spending your time with me today. And thank you, Charmaine, for sharing your thoughts. We'll talk again soon. But for now, this is Eve Picker, signing off to go make some change.

 Brian Steele is a former cult member who underwent deprogramming by a world renowned expert. Even after his escape from the cult he battled to find acceptance and belonging. These days he’s a pastor and has recently become an author, publishing his first book in a series focussed on one of the parables told by Jesus. He has a passion for people to discover a really real kingdom as described throughout the Christian scriptures.  Website: https://www.kingdomfieldguides.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/kingdomfieldguidesInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briancsteele/Kingdom Field Guide: https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Field-Guide-Finding-Really/dp/1952602173Email: kingdomfieldguide@gmail.com   (This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.) Emily Olsen  Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen. Rodney OlsenToday’s guest on Bleeding Daylight is a former cult member who underwent deprogramming by a world renowned expert. Even after his escape from the cult he battled to find acceptance and belonging. These days he’s a pastor and has recently become an author, publishing his first book in a series focussed on one of the parables told by Jesus. He has a passion for people to discover a really real kingdom as described throughout the Christian scriptures. I’ll introduce you in a few moments. Please remember to connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Please also take the time to share this and other episodes through your own social media.  Brian Steele has been a corporate executive and a geologist. Life has taken him on many twists and turns. And these days, he's a pastor, and author. We'll explore some of the detours that Brian has taken along the way, as well as looking at his book, The Kingdom Field Guide. Brian, welcome to Bleeding Daylight. Brian Steele  Thank you, Rodney, really glad to join you. Rodney Olsen  Your book looks at a story that Jesus told about searching for treasure and before we uncover more about the book, maybe we should look at your own search. Can you help me understand a little bit of your search for faith? Brian Steele  Sure, Rodney, I grew up in a Christian home but in the eighth grade, I sort of washed my hands of it all and decided to to wander and I really wandered far I found myself in some dark places in terms of drug use, and, and even involved in curious and some dark spirituality and in sort of even occultic practices. By the time I got to college, I found myself way underwater and was way over my head, and was actually scared with some of the things that I was involved with. So I had I prayed a short prayer. That was something like Lord save me. It was one of these desperation, prayers. And so the next day after that, I was going to college at the University of California in Santa Barbara. I was on campus, and there were some people there, and they were sharing a gospel message. And I thought, well, this is God, answering my prayer already. The next day, I went to a Bible study invited me to, and I made a commitment to Jesus and started a life of faith but what I didn't know was that the group that I got myself involved with was a cult and I got sucked in. And Rodney, the next three years of my life were a nightmare, not just for myself, but also for the friends and family that that really cared about me. Rodney Olsen  I want to look at the details of that cult in a moment but first of all, what was it in your upbringing, you say you were brought up in a Christian home, that made you want to look elsewhere? What was it that you can identify that made you think I need to explore something else? Brian Steele  Well, that's it's a great question. Because I had really incredible parents, I do have really incredible parents, the church for for whatever reason, I didn't connect with the practice, in, in my home church, I had felt I was also adopted as a as an infant. And I think that adoption carried a sense of, of not belonging, not because my parents didn't love me, or my brother and sister didn't love me but there was just a deep type of not belonging. You know, for example, during some of the church services, instead of mingling in the commons, at coffee hour or outside with the other kids, I would hide in the bathroom. So there was that sort of painful sense that I don't belong. So when I got old enough, in middle school, I think it was an expression of that, where if I don't belong here, where do I belong? And that just led to a journey of exploration. I think it's also something that made me very vulnerable to being recruited by the cult because cults artificially provide belonging to people who at different stages in their lives are vulnerable. So I think that made me a prime target, Rodney Olsen  I was gonna say that cult would have seen you as ripe for the picking, because you're looking for identity, you're looking for a place and and so often, that's what they are promising to people who enter the cult. What were some of the practices there that started to tip you off to the fact that this isn't quite right. Brian Steele  It was a Bible based cult. It was Christian. Their doctrine, I would say now is was basically normal Christian doctrine. What made it destructive was their practices of control, manipulation, use of fear, guilt, shame, and also practices of isolation. So they had convinced me that my family was against me, that my other friends were satanic, quote, unquote, and so they isolated me. And then in that isolation, I was much more easily to control. So it wasn't at all about the doctrine. I would say you could take the doctrine that was found there in terms of basic Christian beliefs, and you could import that into any mainline church, but it was about the abuse of authority and the abuse of control over the members lives too. Very, very small degree. Basically, there were arranged marriages, if you wanted to date somebody had to seek counsel from the leadership, and they would tell you where to live, and where to work effectively. And there was a high degree of guilt, shame and fear that was used to control people. So just for example, Rodney, there was a member who ended up leaving the cult, and a week later, he died tragically in a plane crash. And the leadership said, See, look what happens when you leave. It's that level of control and fear. And really, I was turned into a different person, my personality was replaced, I'd become somebody that was the group ideal, and it was forced into a mold. And really, I lost myself. Rodney Olsen  And I suppose that's the fear of some looking into the church from the outside that they see people taking this book that we call the scriptures, the Bible, and they can spin it in so many different ways. But what you're saying is it wasn't the Bible that was at fault, it was people trying to take stuff from the Bible and spin it in a way that it was never meant to be. Brian Steele  Yeah, that's exactly right, that the scripture can be used as a two by four, to beat people into submission, we had so many different meetings in a week that the workload was, was incredible, there would be something practically every day. And if you missed something, for whatever reason, you know, one of the leading brothers would say, Brian, you know, the Bible says that we shouldn't forsake the gathering of ourselves together. And don't you think, brother that you need to be coming to all of our meetings, right likes that type of that type of control. And, and if you're isolated from the rest of your family, and friends and your, your whole world, depends on that social structure, then they can turn the love up and down, based on how you're performing and it's used to control people. Rodney Olsen  How did you eventually exit that group? Brian Steele  Well, my parents knew that something was wrong. They saw a massive change in my life, they saw the personality change. And they had tried to get me out Rodney, they had talked with me a number of times, but but I didn't have any inclination of ever leaving. So the coal was going to send me from California to a university in Bellingham, Washington called Western Washington University. And I got into went into that school as a geology graduate student, that was going to be my guys. That was going to be my cover. And then I was going to recruit college students for the cult there. So on my way from Santa Barbara, to Washington State, my parents said, Would you please just come by our house just to say hi, and I reluctantly went, and then they said, We need you to go to your uncle's house to help us move a TV. So I go to the uncle's house. Well, they had hired a world renowned expert, he was a deprogrammer, somebody who got people out of cults across the world and they kept me there for a week. It was at that time an involuntary intervention. So they took my car keys and my shoes and my wallet, and they moved furniture in front of the doors, they nailed windows shut, they removed the sharps from the kitchen, they had two big bodyguards, and I was basically kept there to prevent me from leaving so that I could listen to this man as he walked through, hour by hour, day by day. So I could finally start thinking again. And that's what got me out of the cult was this intervention that my parents performed? And I am I have so much gratitude for them. Rod knew that they would do this, that they would show me that kind of love, that they would do that level of intervention in order to get me out. And I'm so grateful for that. Rodney Olsen  At what point during that time that forced intervention, did the light start going on for you? Do you start to realize, actually, what they're saying is the truth. Brian Steele  It was probably day three or four, that the irony is that there's no system of control. And that could be a cult control. It could be a domestic violence situation works on national levels, the whole system of control is the same in any setting of that kind of social manipulation, but it's never 100% perfect. So there's always doubts and I had my doubts while I was in the group, but I just kept pushing them down or I didn't have the courage to face them or I had the fear that if I acted on those doubts that I would be basically kicked to the curb or done away with and so It took about three days of listening to the programmer where those doubts were able to surface to my mind enough. And I was able to reengage my critical thinking that I thought, oh boy, I'm in trouble I have myself in something, it's pretty deep, and it's pretty bad. Rodney Olsen  So you managed to then start to see that this wasn't the place for you to be. Were there recriminations from the group, once they found out that you were leaving. Brian Steele  I didn't tell them. I just didn't show up to my mission training team where the group was, was going to do more training. Instead, my parents sent me to a rehab center in Ohio for cold victims, which was another tremendous gift. So I didn't face any recriminations from the group because I just disappeared, I didn't tell them where I was, I just literally disappeared off the map from the group. At the Counseling Center, I got to learn about all of the cult dynamics and how the psychological implications I got to unpack the psychological baggage and the emotional damage that was done, I got to straighten out some of the spiritual baggage. And Rodney, I was so fortunate to have that type of recovery, because the vast majority people who leave groups like that, never fully recover. And they never understand what happened to them and why it happened. And they carry that baggage the rest of their lives. It's so sad. So this was 30 years ago. And I still have every once in a while little twinges, I would say, I'm healed. But I have some skin. I have some scars. From that experience. I wouldn't say person who goes through that can ever be fully healed. But a person can find a life that is healthy and thriving, again, a life of faith. But it sure takes a long time running. Rodney Olsen  And what did that do, immediately after that, what did that do for your faith? Was it something that you said, Okay, well, I'm going to turn from this facade of faith into a true faith or, or did it cause you to walk away for a while? Brian Steele  Yeah, I think what happened is the pendulum did swing the other way. I've maintained my faith. But I walked away from the spiritual disciplines and my faith inside the cult, I had to constantly be reading the Bible, always praying, always attending meetings, always on the treadmill, and just the hamster, running as fast as you could and never getting anywhere. So when I left, I think I went too far the other way, Rodney, where I never threw my faith away. But I did wander. And I didn't have the rooting and the grounding of some of the spiritual practices that keep people grounded. So the image that I have the cult felt like Egypt, if we're looking at Israel's story, Egypt was a place of slavery. And those groups like that are effectively a type of slavery. And then from Egypt, I went into a desert, and I wandered, probably for a good 20 years of still being a believer going to church trying to engage. But it was very difficult to engage it in a way that felt like it was really meaningful. And so so there's this period of wandering. And that's, that's really normal. I do feel fortunate that I didn't completely abandon my faith, because that does happen often and understandably. Rodney Olsen  And there was still further bumps along the road during their time afterwards, weren't they? Brian Steele  Yeah, that's right. So during that period, what I'll call the this wilderness period, I got married, had a child, but I wasn't a whole person. In my marriage. I didn't have a life that was integrated. So I would say it felt like I was a Christian Sunday morning, probably for about an hour, and then Monday, not so much. Wednesday, Thursday, even less Friday, definitely not. Saturday, I'm repenting, so I could be a Christian again, Sunday morning. It was that sort of cycle, which effectively was a cycle of sin management. And that life of integrity, eventually, in part led to a divorce in 2008. And that was an even darker period of my life, going through divorce, Rodney Olsen  it must have been a very difficult time when you're not fully in touch with faith. So that would be difficult to hang on to. And at the same time, if this comes back to that early thing that you spoke about of not feeling that you you fit in that must have come back to haunt you again. Brian Steele  Yes. Yeah. And and actually, I've just recently started to understand this about myself with my story of belonging. Because I this last summer, I had a sabbatical and went to the soul shepherding Institute with Bill and Christie Gaultiere and, and was able to peel back some of the layers of the onion, and really look at some of the wounding in my past in a way that I hadn't before. And one of the themes was this belonging. So I think, you know, in in a cult, it's a hyper spiritualized, hyper social pressurized environment. So when I left, I think I want it to get as far away from that as I could. So I went to more of a material individual way of living, as opposed to a spiritual, social way of living. And that pendulum swing, you know, I was attending a church, but I didn't have really deep, meaningful relationships. I also had a type of pride where it was like, I don't really need other people. In terms of my faith, I had isolated myself from meaningful relationships inside the church. So as a member of the body of Christ was a member of the church, but I was withering, because I didn't allow myself to connect fully and meaningfully with other people, I was effectively cut off. Rodney Olsen  So you've been through a whole range of different things and, and now you're starting a new journey. When did the idea settle with you that you might even study and become a pastor? Brian Steele  I have a very unusual route to becoming a pastor. So during the early 2000s, I was actually practicing as a geologist, because I went to school for geology, got my graduate degree in geology, eventually, I joined a firm and was practicing engineering geology, became a partner in the company, eventually transitioned into I was transitioning to becoming president of the company, really doing very well in business and in practicing geology. And at the same time, my son was going into middle school. And so I was at a different church now, and just started volunteering in the middle school youth group, and got really surprised by how much I enjoyed working with the youth group, it was actually shocking. I was like, oh, my goodness, I deeply, deeply enjoy this. And this is satisfying in a way that I've never experienced before, was sort of alarming for me. I'm a volunteer in this ministry. And that just steamrolled, I started gaining more responsibility and having more involvement in it, it really came to a head where the The first time I got to deliver a sermon to these middle school kids, it was so deeply enjoyable. And that same week, I closed a massive business deal in my company. But I had way more satisfaction in this experience in the youth group. And then I thought, Oh, no, I'm in trouble. And so soon after that, the church actually offered me a pastor job to become the youth pastor in this ministry. I mean, that that created a huge dilemma, because I was six months into this transition to become president of the company. So I'd approach my business partners and lay it out and say, you know, this church has offered me to position to become a pastor, and I think I need to explore that. And they were so kind and so generous with me. And they said, Brian, you've been pastoring us all along anyways. So you have to go explore that opportunity. And they gave me this long, long leash, they said, Go check it out. If it's for you, that's great. If it doesn't, you can come back and you can still work for the company. And that was such a gift. And that was incredible. So I have been a pastor now for going on eight years, I was a youth pastor for three years. And now I'm working with adults and how to establish Christ as the foundation in somebody's life. And what's really cool if I could take one little side detour. Part of my responsibility at this congregation is called the belonging team, believe it or not, and my job is to help people feel like they belong in a big congregation and a big church. And I didn't even really connect the dots that this was one of the deepest aches and one of the deepest pains in my life. And God was so good and was so kind that he would use that pain and turn it around, to bring goodness into other people's lives. Like one of the deepest pains of my life, and now, it's part of who I am, and how I'm serving, and how I'm trying to help other people. And it's just, I think God is so creative in the way that he can do that. Rodney Olsen  We know that God doesn't cause the wounds in our lives, but it's constantly amazing to see the way that he takes those wounds those things that we thought were wasted years and, and turn them around. So I imagine you're able to then use that experience for others who are finding that acceptance and that belonging very difficult to be able to walk them very gently towards that belonging. Brian Steele  That's right, you know, you've you've heard the expression, death by 1000 cuts, I think the Christian life is his life by 1000, cuts, every single one of those small little wounds, the Lord is able to not just restore, and heal, but is able to turn them around to bring blessing and goodness into other people. And it's precisely those small multitude of little cuts that makes our life, I think, meaningful and exciting, and that that ultimately leads to flourishing. Rodney Olsen  I'm interested in your book and the premise solid, looking at one parable that Jesus told that's recorded in the Scripture. And you've studied this for many, many years, tell me what drew you to study this particular parable. And maybe you can start off by outlining the parable for those who perhaps haven't heard it before? Brian Steele  Yeah, it is Matthew 13:44, which Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field that a man finds and covers up, and then in his joy goes and sells everything, and buys that field. And I stumbled on this parable in 2012. I didn't know anything about the kingdom at all. I'd been a Christian for a long time, but the kingdom was something that was totally outside of my experience. I'd read about it in the Scripture, but it had no bearing on my life. And backing up just a little bit, actually was reading the parable of the sower. And that's a familiar one which says, you know, the sower goes out, and so as a seed, and some of the seed falls on the rocky ground and some of the thorns and some of the shallow soil, but some of the seed finds good soil. And I noticed, for the first time after reading that parable, probably hundreds of times that Jesus said, the seed is the word of the kingdom. And it stopped me dead in my tracks. Because like, I have no idea what the kingdom is. And then shortly later, I was praying the Lord's Prayer. And we'd all you know, prayed that thousands of times our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come and again, I got stopped dead in my tracks. I'm praying for his kingdom. And I have no idea what his kingdom is. And then the kicker was the parable of the hidden treasure. I believe I was that guy had been walking across a field hundreds of times. And one day, stubbed his toe, and I looked down. And there is this treasure box. And so Rodney, I've been studying that single parable for over eight years now. And the question for me, that I've just been exploring is, what is the kingdom? And why is it worth everything? What is the kingdom? And why is it worth everything? I had to wrestle through whether Jesus was actually being a scam artist when he was telling that parable because my experience was, I don't even know what the kingdom is. So really, you're wanting me to sell everything to acquire this thing? And it didn't seem like a good deal for me at first, does that resonate with you at all? Rodney Olsen  Yeah, it's interesting that, you know, Jesus doesn't seem to tell us exactly what the kingdom is. It's so much of Scripture is the kingdom is like this. It's like this. It's like this will just tell us what it is. Brian Steele  Right? So and I think that's intentional. And Jesus being deeply rooted in Hebrew Scriptures and being a Jew himself. The Hebrew scriptures are intentionally vague, because they are inviting you in to explore. It's very different than western teaching. Western teaching is going to go here's your five steps for doing XYZ And then you can do this and that. But Hebrew literature in the Hebrew tradition is filled with question and filled the gaps and ambiguity and filled with mystery so that you step in and you explore the world. And when I say that I've been studying the parable of the hidden treasure for eight years, I really mean if you, if you open that treasure box, and begin to walk through the hidden chambers that are within inside that treasure, it really is endless. It's like pulling this piece of yarn, and you're pulling in, you're pulling in, you're pulling and you're pulling, and it's connected to a sweater that's infinitely large, and you're gonna just keep pulling. And but what happened was Rodney, it was a second conversion in my Christian faith. Everything seemed like it was brand new when I discovered that God's kingdom is not a metaphor, that it's not a symbol, but that it is a real actual kingdom, here and now and that Jesus is a real actual King. Rodney Olsen  When did you start to really come to terms with what you believe this parable is saying? Brian Steele  That the shift for me is when the kingdom became there, it was a transition from the kingdom becoming real. To the kingdom being really real. This is just an example what I mean by really real. Four years ago, my wife, Katie, got a brain tumor. Before that time, I thought that the brain tumors are real, but they had no bearing on my life whatsoever. They were just kind of real. out there, it was external to my life had no impact on my life. But the moment that we found out about my wife's diagnosis, instantly, brain tumors became really real. That tumor affected every single detail of our life, it invaded almost every conversation that I have, that we had it, it affected our finances, it affected our planning, it affected how we spent our time, it affected our community, brain tumors went from being real, to really real, and that it wove through every fiber of our lives. And that's also what happens with God's kingdom. There's a moment when it becomes something external way out there, that when you realize God's kingdom is really real, and has a bearing upon every breath, that you take every word that you speak every dime, that you spend every minute of your day, every resource, every relationship that hit the rule and reign of Jesus as King has complete and total influence in your life. And meaning and significance. That's when it became it became something. And so that's this, the title of the book is the Kingdom Field Guide: Keys to Finding God's Really Real Kingdom, because Rodney, I don't think the parable, the hidden treasure makes sense so long as we think the kingdom is real. It's not enough. We're not going to go and sell everything for something that's real. It has to become really real. Rodney Olsen  Do you find that there are a lot of people in churches who would subscribe to traditional Christian belief, and yet they haven't caught this idea of a really real kingdom. And so therefore, it's part of their life. This Christian faith is part of their life. It's not all consuming as you're explaining, with this idea of the kingdom, Brian Steele  I think, yes, I think for the majority of Christians, I would even say the majority of Christian pastors, for a lot of pastors and leaders and influencers, the kingdom isn't yet really real. But they haven't understood that it's an actual kingdom. There's a tremendous irony in this, in that we were designed and made to live in an eternal kingdom. So it's written in our DNA. And so if you look at the consumption of media, people spend billions and billions of dollars on Kingdom narratives. Any successful franchise is a kingdom narrative. So Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, all of the Marvel movies, all of the Disney films, they're all Kingdom narratives. It's practically the only thing we'll pay money to watch is a good Kingdom narrative down Abby, like, I'm kind of ashamed to say that, you know, we've been 50 hours of Downton Abbey. And there's a reason. It's because it's a very good Kingdom story. So the irony is, is we're starving for Kingdom narratives were desperate for it will consume them in massive quantities. So I think it's something like this kingdom is the only thing we know. But the problem is, we don't know that we know it. It's operating back of mind. Rodney Olsen  So really, it's a case of when we do stumble across it, finally, we see it there, that's when we're prepared to sell everything for it, because we realize the value of it. Brian Steele  That's right, and and that it's been there the whole time. It's always there. The premise of my book is you can't see what you don't seek. And that the kingdom will remain invisible. It might even seem unreal, until you start seeking it as your highest priority. And that's why Jesus says, Matthew 6:33, Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. And he's saying, you don't want to seek it, like you've lost your car keys. You want to seek the kingdom, like you've lost a child, that type of priority. And until seeking God's kingdom becomes the priority of our life. It's not gonna matter. That's the the experience in the in the parable. Imagine the guy walking across the field, again, hundreds of times, the hidden treasure, it's not hidden, because it's buried. It's hidden, because he's not looking for it. So it's there. But he stubs his toe, he sees there's a box there he lifts the lid, he starts pouring through the treasure there's there needs to be I think we have to have a period in our lives where we have to dedicate our mind and our thinking by asking what is the kingdom and searching scripture to see what the kingdom is, then eventually, it's going to move from our mind into our heart, we're going to understand the value. So I love in this in this parable, I have this image in my mind where he's, he's finally captured the value of what he's just found. Then he looks up and what does he see? Rodney, he sees a for sale sign, and this field is for sale. And that's why Jesus says in his joy, he goes and sells everything that he has, it's a no brainer. And that's a test to find out if you have found the kingdom or not. Because if you have, it'll be your greatest joy, your highest priority to have the mother of all garage sales. If you're not yet ready to give everything that you have in exchange for the kingdom, you haven't yet found it or you haven't yet discovered that it's really real. Rodney Olsen  How do we begin that journey? How do we stub our toe so to speak? Brian Steele  Rodney, that is the question. It's such an important question. Part of the answer is that we have to learn about the kingdom in a way that Jesus taught the kingdom. He taught by using immersive experiences. So yes, he gave some sermons. And yes, he gave some teachings. But you have to look at where and how he taught. So he taught on location. In these places. The first century Jews were already intimately familiar with and his teaching used the physical stuff that they already knew. So he'd say, Oh, the teaching is like a seed. While they're like you mentioned, they're an agricultural society, so they understand farming. Or he would say the kingdom is like this net that's in the water. Well, they would understand that because they're fishermen, or the kingdom is like leaven while they cook with bread. And so they would understand that, the point being that you have to learn about the kingdom in the way that Jesus taught about the kingdom. So my book, I call it the Kingdom Field Guide, because I'm giving people immersive experiences, to learn about the kingdom, I'm directing people to, to physical places that are going to be all around them, and giving them experiences for learning and how to engage their site, how to engage their mind, how to engage all of their senses, to be immersed, so that the kingdom isn't just something that's just limited to their imagination, but they began to connect it to the real world. Rodney Olsen  You've obviously been on this journey for some time as you've studied this parable. What has been the response of those people that you've helped to take on that journey for those who have entered into this study that you've done and realized it for themselves? Brian Steele  It's been so fun. I've worked with hundreds of people in my pastor role. And I've seen what's most interesting. I feel like it's been really valuable for people who are in leadership, who have responsibilities in ministry, but they're stuck, and how they communicate to other people about the gospel. So for example, the person who wrote the foreword to the book, his name is Joshua Sheets and he is in high level leadership in a international discipling ministry. And up until the time when we had, we started talking about the kingdom. He didn't know how to communicate to the kingdom, to people that are in his ministry to his leaders. And even further down to the people he was serving. Heat stubbed his toe on the king on the hidden treasure. And this is somebody who has been in ministry for four years. And it became really real to him. And what was so cool was it when he had a sabbatical, he set up different field trips for his family. So they traveled to Israel and to Europe. And he literally like for his kids, he, he hid a box in a field and it gave his children an immersive experience in finding a treasure. And then that helped them understand what God's kingdom was. So I think it's it's all about the immersive experience. It's about the way of learning and the way of really embodying faith. And I've had multiple encounters with people like that who've been Christians for decades, decades, decades, who have not yet made the connection, that God's kingdom isn't just real, but really real, Rodney Olsen  Is the book available for people to purchase now? Brian Steele  It is being published going to be on Amazon. And this is book one in a series of seven or eight, all about the parable of the hidden treasure. And you think that one book is enough to explain a parable but 10 books, Rodney is not going to be enough to explain the parable, the hidden treasure, it's all scratching the surface, I think I'd like to speak to people who are in a place where they've they feel stuck. Or maybe they feel like their faith is boring, or dull, or it's routine. And I just want them to know that there is a life of flourishing that's available in this life. That there is like a sense of thrill and excitement. When we discover God's kingdom is really real that that's unlike any other kind of religious duty or any kind of, of just kind of going through the motions. That's really My prayer is that people would stub their toe on the hidden treasure. Rodney Olsen  Do you find sometimes that people are so caught up in this idea of kingdom, the kingdom to come in eternity, that they are losing the opportunity to live kingdom right now? Brian Steele  Yeah, I think it's a huge problem. Well, we have to agree that Jesus is an actual King right now, when he said all authority in heaven on earth has been given to me. That's a description of his current rule and reign that right now at this moment, his kingdom is here, not yet fully. But his kingdom has been inaugurated. And in fact, we are the body of Christ, the king, we are the the embodiment of the king on Earth. That means something if we've been delegated that role, and authority to act on behalf of the name of the king, then there's a real tragedy when that doesn't occur. And I even think of, of recently, Prince Harry, and and Princess Meghan, they have recently decided that they don't want to have official duties in the royal family. And so they've moved to Los Angeles and they have, in a sense abdicated their royalty. In many ways. That is a picture of how many Christians are living their lives, that in reality, they are royalty. They have been given responsibilities in the kingdom of God to act on behalf of the king. But they've decided to abdicate their royalty. They've decided to to live outside of the responsibilities The stewardship that's been entrusted to them, which means they're also going to lose a huge amount of the blessing that comes from, from working and living and having that type of relationship. On behalf of the king, there is a loss. Rodney Olsen  It's fascinating to start to delve into this whole area, or coming out of this, this parable, and the parables around it, where, where Jesus talks about pearls and all sorts of things. But if someone is wanting to get hold of the book, or to get in touch with you, I will put some links in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet. But where's the easiest place to track you down? Brian Steele  Yeah, go to kingdomfieldguides.com. That's field guides with an S. And you can sign up to get the book. There'll be information there. You can also find me on Facebook, I have a Facebook page called Kingdom field guides. Or if you'd like to email me I'd love to, to have connection with people and my email is kingdomfieldguide@gmail.com. Rodney Olsen  Brian, it really has been an honor to chat to you to talk about some of the things that you've discovered as you've lived life and to come to this point where this book is ready to get out there and to invite others into this kingdom. Thank you so much for your time today. Brian Steele  Rodney, thank you so much. It's been a great honor being on Bleeding Daylight. Emily Olsen  Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net 

How does a massive company like Dun & Bradstreet navigate a major change to its marketing strategy and, in doing so, increase audience engagement by 45%? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Dun & Bradstreet Vice President of Marketing Nipul Chokshi explains the mechanics behind a major overhaul in D&B's marketing strategy, from a product-centric approach, to a customer-centric approach.  From how the company got buy-in across multiple marketing and sales teams, to what was involved in making the shift and the how it resulted in a 45% increase in audience engagement, Nipul dives into the details of exactly how D&B did it, and how any business - large or small - can apply the lessons learned to its own marketing. Check out the full episode, or read the transcript below, for details. Resources from this episode: Visit the Dun & Bradstreet website Follow Nipul on Twitter Transcript Kathleen (00:00): Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And this week, my guest is Nipul Chokshi, who is the VP of marketing at Dun and Bradstreet. Welcome to the podcast Nipul. Nipul (00:22): Oh, great. Thanks. thanks for having me, Kathleen. Hello to everyone and really excited to be here. Kathleen (00:29): Yeah. I was excited to chat with you because you know, Dun and Bradstreet is, is such a, it's such a behemoth, really. It's a large company and you know, it's interesting. I think a lot of times people can, can be lulled into thinking that being head of marketing for large companies can be easier because in theory, your budget's bigger and you have a lot of staff, but I think, you know, trying to turn the ship while it's moving is can often be difficult at a large company. And you had an interesting story that really appealed to me about turning the ship and what you all have done there and the results you've gotten from it. So I'm really excited to dig into that, but before we do that, can you just take a minute and for those who are listening and maybe don't know who you are, or, you know, have heard of D&B, but maybe aren't as familiar with what the company is today, take a minute and explain you and your role and perhaps your journey of how you got to where you are and then also what Dun and Bradstreet is today. Nipul (01:27): Absolutely. So I'll start with myself. So I run what we call so I'm a VP of marketing at Dun and Bradstreet. And obviously as you mentioned, we have a pretty big marketing team. My specific focus area is in what we call portfolio marketing specifically for our sales and marketing solutions business unit. As you can imagine, Dun and Bradstreet is a huge company. We sell to you know, all sorts of different stakeholders within our B2B customer base, ranging from finance professionals to risk management professionals, to sales and marketing professionals. And my business unit is focused specifically on solutions that are targeted towards B2B sales and marketing folks. And so I've been at D&B for a little bit over a year now. I came in through an acquisition of a company called Lattice Engines where I was their CMO for the past five years. Nipul (02:33): Lattice Engines. We developed AI software for B2B sales and marketing. So if you're a marketer looking to do account-based marketing and want to understand who your target accounts, where you would leverage our software, if you want it to be able to understand what the best way is to what are the key messages that would resonate with your target audience, you would leverage our software to do that and so on and so forth. And so we were acquired into D&B. We're part of, kind of this bigger business unit called sales and marketing solutions which specifically sells as you can imagine to B2B sales and marketers to help them do their jobs back there. From the marketing side, leveraging the data and insights that we provide to help marketers do a better job of targeting and engaging audiences via more personalized campaigns. Nipul (03:29): And then on the sales side, enables sales to be smarter in terms of where they focus their time and effort as well as helps them to kind of get better context around each and every prospect that they're calling into so that they have better conversations. Prior to Lattice I was at a variety of different places. And most recently before Lattice, I was at a company called Yammer which had been acquired by Microsoft. I ran kind of our solutions marketing at, first at Yammer, and then Microsoft. Prior to that, I was at a company called Marketo. And then before that I did product management at a bunch of companies, including Siebel, Oracle, so on and so forth. So a pretty long windy road, if you will setting with product management to marketing, ultimately here. Kathleen (04:21): But lots of brands that I think my listeners would be familiar with, including Marketo and Yammer. But what I think is so interesting is what you're doing at, at D&B, because honestly, and I'll admit, I, I don't think I was very familiar with all of the things that the company does today and, and wasn't aware of the extent of the solutions that it has for sales and marketers. So it makes this conversation even that much more interesting because we have so many marketers who are listening. So you came to Dun and Bradstreet through an acquisition. And one of the things that you've worked on and it's been, how long since you've been there. Nipul (05:01): I've been at D&B since July of last year. Kathleen (05:04): Okay. So since you've joined, which is not a very long time you've worked on quite a large undertaking of revamping how the company approaches its marketing. So maybe you could give a little background on that and what led to it. Nipul (05:19): Yeah, sure, absolutely. Right. So look, ultimately you know, while D&B was acquiring Lattice, it was undergoing a lot of transformation and change internally itself. You know, the company D&B has been around since like the 18 hundreds, like 1876. Interesting fact that I learned the other day is we actually have two ex presidents who've worked for D&B in the past. So Abe Lincoln used to work for D&B yeah, as well as Taft, I believe was another person who worked for D&B. And so the company has been around very story company and everybody knows D&B most likely the this thing called the DUNS number which is effectively a social security number for businesses. Think of it as a social security number for businesses. And it's an identifier that you need, if you're a business and you're looking to get a loan or you're looking to get government support or whatnot, whatever, right. Nipul (06:21): If you're looking to do commerce. And so there's a whole big kind of data business there that the companies traditionally thrived in. And over time, it's built up a portfolio of capabilities and value propositions, not just for the folks on the finance side and the risk management side, which leverage that DUNS number, but also on the sales and marketing side where you can use the DUNS number as an identifier for that you can do better targeting for, for your you know, sales and marketing campaigns. You know, on top of that, there's obviously a whole bunch of other data assets that the company provides as well. Firmographics, data, intent data, and so on and so forth. So that, again, from a sales and marketing standpoint, you can be a lot more diligent in terms of your targeting and your campaigns. And so the company's been around for awhile. The company had been public, like it went private in 2019. Just this part of an internal kind of transformational effort. The company was looking to really kind of revamp. Nipul (07:44): The company went private in 2019, undertook a variety of different transformational initiatives one of which was really transforming its go to market fit. You know, traditionally from a go-to-market standpoint, the company took very much a inside out approach where it's like all the value props and all the campaigns were all about promoting individual products. And at this point we have hundreds of products that we sell just to sales and marketing folks and B2B companies. And so you know, that as you can imagine, that not a very effective way of doing things. So the things that we undertook, our transformation effort was to really reorient our, go to market and make it a lot more customer centric. So that you know, rather than selling individual products you know, our key tenant is take more of an outside in approach to understand who are the buyers, what are the problems that they need solved and what the solutions, right? Nipul (08:56): Not even individual products, but the solutions that we can deliver to help them achieve those and kind of solve those problems. And so that was kind of the crux of, of the effort. And so there's a whole bunch of things that we can talk about just in terms of, from a marketing and sales standpoint that we've done to kind of support that. So at a, at a high level, that's kind of the gist, hopefully that gave a little bit of an orientation around and context saying the problem we're looking to solve. Kathleen (09:29): Yeah. I love hearing that story because I think that it touches on a problem that a lot of companies have, and you don't need to be as big as, as Dun and Bradstreet to experience that where, you know, if you're a company that has multiple products or solutions that are seemingly quite different from each other, it's very easy to fall into the trap of marketing in, in silos, if you will, and pushing product out to your customers as opposed to taking a solution mindset. So I, I like, I like how you kind of reframed that for the company and decided to look at it from a solution standpoint, but I have so many questions because that is way easier, said than done at a company of Dun and Bradstreet's size. So, you know, you can sit there as a marketing team and say, we want to change this orientation, but, but to use the analogy from earlier, this is a massive, massive ship that is underway. So how do you approach that when you're in a company of that size, what's the framework that you use to go about doing something like this Nipul (10:41): So we did as part of this effort first is everything that we think about from a sales and marketing standpoint, like the key tenant that we believed in is outside-in approach, right? So when it comes to developing campaigns and when it comes to developing sales and pitch stacks, right. Obviously at some point we talk about product, but we also always, always want to start with, you know, who's the buyer persona and what's the problem that they're looking to be able to solve. So just kind of that shift in mindset what is foundational to everything that we do when it comes to developing our campaigns, developing our content, like, that's the number one question that gets asked rather than what's the product we're promoting. It's more like, okay, who's the target audience for what we're developing this campaign and this product for. Nipul (11:45): Right. So it even extends to the product organization. And so, and that's pretty basic, that's like bread and butter stuff, right. As a marketer, you're always trained to do that, but somehow you know, this kind of, that focus had gotten lost. So that's number one. Number two you know, in terms of executing on that and the whole transformation we found, obviously it's really critical to be aligned on priorities. So between the sales team, the marketing team, the product team, right, the business development team and the executive team you know, we found that it was really critical that all of us are aligned on what are our business priorities, right. Which you know, which parts of the market do we really want to make sure we were growing and which parts of the market are we saying like, okay, they're just going to be on there. Nipul (13:19): And the second thing is that we knew we wanted to make sure that we were all aligned on our priorities. You know, everybody from a product perspective, sales perspective, marketing executives you know, we wanted, you know, a key part of this was making sure we were on the same page in terms of, you know, from a business standpoint, what were the number one, two, three, four, five, you know, things that we wanted to make sure that we were focused on whether it's you know investing in a particular market you know, from a product standpoint that in a market go to market standpoint, whether it's, you know, kind of making sure that, you know, we were exiting a particular market and whatnot. So that alignment at the highest levels around our business priorities was absolutely critical. And then double clicking on that a little bit more, just kind of the relationship between sales and marketing. Nipul (14:16): We felt that it was absolutely critical to make sure that we were all aligned on what our ICP was. So that was something that was you know, something that we focused on from a sales and marketing standpoint is what are the specific you know, for each of our business priorities who are the buyers that we actually want to target? And what did they look like, right. Not just in terms of the titles, but kind of the types of companies as well. Right? So company size company industry, right. If they bought a certain kind of D&B product already, right, as well as level of engagement that they might have in painstaking detail, we rolled out, you know, kind of our buyer profile, if you will, for each of the different parts of our business and made sure that, you know, from a sales and marketing standpoint, we were all kind of on the same page there. You know, as a, as a company that, you know, sells data insights and the ability to kind of end the promise of data and insights for sales and marketing, we felt like it behooved us to kind of drink our own champagne there. Right. so that we can drive that alignment which was absolutely critical. Kathleen (15:30): I have to stop you and ask one question, cause this is like, I'm dying, I'm dying to know the answer to this. You said you all, you had to get on the same page with sales and business development and product. And of course I'm sure executive leadership, that's like, that's easy. Again, another thing very easy to say, but that's a massive, massive consensus building exercise. I mean, can you just give me maybe a short glimpse into, like, how did that process work and was it really driven top down? Cause I imagine you'd have to have high level executive buy-in to get all of those parties to the table and to get them to agree to fundamentally change the way they approach going to market. Nipul (16:09): Yeah. We were fortunate that we did have that top-down agreement. Right? So everybody from the president of D&B down to the president of sales and marketing solutions to our EVP is down to my level. You know, everybody was aligned in terms of like, okay, like we have to take things from a customer first perspective if the D&B is going to thrive, right? Like that's a key, key aspect of growth for us, key lever of growth for us. And then in terms of the individual priorities, that's where again, kind of at the EVP and VP levels, that's where we kind of said, okay, you know, given kind of our high level targets around where we want to be as a company from a revenue standpoint, from a customer acquisition standpoint and an overall company growth standpoint, what does that mean for each of the business units? Nipul (17:05): Like the sales and marketing business unit, for example as well as within sales and marketing business unit, what does that mean for the different kind of you know, solution areas that comprise that business unit? And so it was definitely a top down effort and we were fortunate to have kind of senior management driving that effort to kind of you know, make sure that we were successful. Because as you suggested, like I've been in companies where, you know, unless you have that top-down effort driving the alignment you know, it becomes a bit of a challenge, especially in large companies like the D&B you know, sometimes it becomes like pushing on a right, if you're trying to do things more at the grassroots grassroots level. Now having said that it's not like all of a sudden, you know, just because it was top down, everything just clicked into place. Nipul (17:59): There was a lot of debate back and forth between you know, different folks within the business units and across business units as well. But ultimately we kept sight of, you know, kind of the values that we want to do in here too, in terms of making sure that we're honoring our client, making sure that, you know, we were investing appropriately in growing our franchise and so on and so forth. So there were definitely, you know, tactical things we needed to get done there to drive that alignment, but the top down set the stage, if you will for the alignment on the priorities. Kathleen (18:36): Yeah. I can't even imagine what a long slow slog slash battle it would be if you were trying to do this from a, you know, initiated from, from the marketing department without that kind of support. So, so what does it, what, how did, how did it play out? Like what I feel like there are so many things that need to change. I mean, in essence, you almost need to change everything when you really make this shift. So how, how do you change everything? Nipul (19:05): Yeah, no, absolutely. Right. So you know, when it came to changing and driving the actual transformation at a tactical level you know, there were really three key kind of pillars to our strategy if you will. First was segmentation you know, so and again, I'm speaking specifically to the sales and marketing business unit, that's kind of, you know, what, what we've been working on, but this a similar sort of exercise when, on, in the other business units at D&B as well. So you know, at the end of the day, you know, what we do is we sell to sales and marketing folks kind of this promise that you can engage with buyers in a more targeted way, in a more relevant way in a more customer first way. Like that is our value prop. And so you know, as I said earlier, like the phrase drinking our own champagne applied really well here. Nipul (20:02): And so a key pillar to our execution strategy here was all about segmentation and making sure that we were really clear, like once we know what the ICP is, then it's a matter of figuring out, okay, you know, which of these, you know accounts and personas within each of these accounts. You know, we leverage our own AI models to be able to identify, which were the highest propensity targets for new customer acquisition for cross sell opportunities, upsell opportunities you know, what was the low hanging fruit in terms of opportunities where we might be able to arrest churn and improve on retention rates as well. So that segmentation where were able to leverage our own software to be able to kind of triage and identify, you know which accounts within our ICP we should actually be targeting was, was a key part of the execution which gave us kind of this list of accounts and contacts, if you will, for different campaigns that we would run. Nipul (21:08): Right. We also then use data to be able to say, okay, for each of these accounts, you know, for new customer acquisition versus cross sell versus upsell and whatnot where are each of these accounts in the buying journey? You know, are they already like engaged with the D&B brand? Are they on our website? You know, have they like been engaging with our campaigns, they've been attending our webinars or are they just anonymously browsing our website. If they're not on our website, not engaging with us, are they actually in market? So right. We leveraged third party intense signals to give us a sense of kind of what kind of interests you know, that helps us to identify what use cases they might be interested in you know, to, to kind of identify. So what we did was as part of this segmentation exercise is really kind of take our ICP and our target market and segment those accounts into different cohorts, right? Nipul (22:05): Based on propensity to convert based on buyer stage as well as based on the use case and the interest that they would exhibit. So that was, that was a first and the kind of very critical pillar of, of of this overall strategy from an execution standpoint. Once we have that, then it boiled down to how do we actually engage with these buyers in, in a more relevant way across different channels. And so the idea here is we developed programs, right, that were, you know display programs, paid social programs, you know, webinar programs, content programs, SDR, outbound programs, right. Where we would kind of say, okay, let's make sure that we design and develop these for each of the segments. And we call these always on campaigns where these are programs where we've planned them out to over like say 12 months. Nipul (23:09): And basically the idea is that they're always on and you know, very targeted towards each of the different types of segments that we're going after, whether it's new customers, cross sell opportunities, upsell opportunities, and so on and so forth. So the second part of this execution strategy was very much a how do I kind of engage buyers in an omni-channel way across all of these segments that I've just identified. And then the last piece is measurement. You know, we are very well instrumented at this point to be able to kind of say, okay you know, what kind of top tips are working, what tactics aren't, what's the ROI on certain tactics. And so we don't, again, from a marketing standpoint, necessarily report on leads internally when it comes to identifying what's working, and what's not for our campaigns. Nipul (24:06): What we're looking at is account engagement, right? So every week we'll look at a report that says, you know for our website visits, it's not just people who visit our website, obviously that's important from an overall brand standpoint, but we'll also look at website visits from our target accounts, from the high propensity accounts and the segments that we've actually identified. And the idea is that, you know, from a demand generation standpoint, we want that number to be increasing over time, same thing with form sales and leads or hand-raisers, whatever you want to call it. Right. We call them the hand raisers on our website. You don't want to just track anybody who comes in as an inbound way, right? Obviously we're not going to ignore them, but over time we want to see kind of that number of inbound leads coming in from the segments, the high propensity segments that we've defined to be increasing over time. Nipul (25:00): Right? Similarly, we'll look at click-through rates on our ads, right. I don't know, you know, not as important to me to understand anybody who clicks through an ad more important for me to understand whether it's a target account, they're a high propensity target, that's actually click through on an ad. So that level of measurement where we look at not leads and clicks, but we looked at the engagement from the different accounts and segments that we've defined is absolutely critical because that enables us, like right now, we're in the process of planning for 2021. And so we're looking at all these numbers to say, okay, you know, a program might be really effective in terms of driving click-throughs. But if you add the lens of, okay, how many of those clicks actually came from, you know, high propensity targets like that program might not be as you know, good for us to invest in. So those are the sorts of discussions we're able to have as a result of, you know, kind of measuring, not leads and clicks, but the actual account engagement, if you will. So those are kind of the three key pillars for our strategy, if you will, when it comes to executing this one is all about doing the segmentation. Second is then, you know, engaging each of these prospects across the segments through 10 different channels, and then measuring the account level engagement that we get. Kathleen (27:29): Okay. I have a lot of questions based on what you just said. The first has to do with software. So you started out talking about how you, the, the first order of business was really segmenting and using data and placing your, your ICP in different cohorts. And you're using your own technology for a lot of this. So the first question I have is is the technology that you're, this is, this is something that you're selling. And is, is this something that is only available to like large enterprises, or do you have SMB versions of this? Like what kinds of companies would your software be right for? Cause I'm just trying to connect in my head, like who out there could really replicate what you did using the same solution that you use for yourself. Nipul (28:17): Yeah, no, absolutely. And actually we have you know, several thousand customers actually leveraging our software for various elements of sales and marketing. But basically what we do is we sell a an ABM platform and account based marketing platform. And it's not just for large enterprises. We actually have small and mid market companies leveraging this as well. In order to drive you know, more targeted marketing, more, you know, better marketing using our platform. And so yeah, I mean, ultimately you know, our, our software at least for, so we sell within our sales and marketing solutions business unit, we sell to different personas, right? So we sell to marketing like demand gen and digital marketers. And for them, our value prop is being able to use our platform. We have an ABM offering that enables them to execute on ABM programs. Nipul (29:21): Like the one that I just described in a more scalable way. We also sell to you know, sales and marketing operations folks. And so there, we have a data quality and they customer data platform offering that enables them to make sure that whatever data they need about their prospects is as complete and as clean as possible. And they can then kind of merge all of their data into a single place so they could do segmentation. And so that's kind of the second audience. And then the third audience that we sell to is sales leaders. So sales leaders who are looking to improve on their prospecting efforts, we'll leverage our Hoovers offering, D&B Hoovers. And so, you know, there are a variety of data and insights and AI driven insights that we provide as part of that platform. Nipul (30:19): That just makes it easier for reps to be able to say, okay, you know, if they're creating a prospecting list, they want to see, okay. I want to create a prospecting list that of folks who would be interested in ABM software, for example based on third party interest signals that they are expressing third-party intent that we might be expressing so they can use Hoovers to do that. So we have different flavors of our solution based on who it is that we're selling to and the problem that they're looking to solve. And so what I just described and what we're using is really our own ABM platform, which, you know, digital marketing and demand gen marketers would really care about. Kathleen (31:00): Well, I love that you answered the question also by leading with who are the customers that it's right for it, because that's exactly what you're talking about as the whole theme of the podcast. So that's great. And that's one of the things I was like to ask, because I think it's easy to hear people say, we use this technology, but if it's not something that's somehow accessible to most marketers, then, then it, there's not a lot you can take away from it, but it's, it's great to hear that you have solutions for that. So my second question is, in listening to you talk about this, it struck me that, that it sounds as though this must have also prompted some internal changes as far as how your teams functioned and perhaps even potentially were structured because you're, you're really revising how you segment, you're talking about using data to hone in on who the prospects are, who's really in market, based on their intent signals. How did that change the way that you and marketing worked with sales in particular? Nipul (32:00): Yeah, so I mean, there were obviously changes from a sales and marketing standpoint you know, in terms of how the organization structured and all that stuff. Right. but ultimately traditionally the marketing team at D&B was very functionally oriented right where you had kind of a paid media department, a email marketing department, a, you know, a social department and so on and so forth. And so what we did was we kind of shook things up a little bit by kind of making it more of a cross-functional team where you know, we have a demand gen team that is focused across all of these different personas and that demand gen team consists of kind of a program manager, as well as, you know an email marketer as well as a paid media person. Nipul (32:55): Right. and so we've kind of made it more of a matrix organization where you know, each of these campaign teams, if you will, are accountable for driving revenue for pipeline and revenue for the company. And so my team, my team's role is to really kind of own each of the campaigns. So we have campaigns running against, you know, the marketing and digital marketing persona. We have a campaign running against the sales leader persona, and we have a campaign running against the sales and marketing operations persona. So I've got portfolio marketers who are responsible for kind of the programs within each of those, and they'll work closely with the demand gen folks to do the, to execute on the programs, they'll work closely with the appropriate product marketers to make sure we're incorporating the right product messaging and all that stuff into the campaigns as well. Nipul (33:51): So there was definitely a little bit of a change in terms of how marketing worked, right. It was a lot less siloed we needed to within marketing, kind of get rid of those silos and act as one team that was, again, very much focused on the buyer and, you know, each buyer gets its own campaign. So like, you know, it's kind of like a campaign team there. At the same time you know, just kind of sales, you know, sales was always very much as usual is always very much focused outside in, right. When it came to engaging with targets and, you know their segmentation was you know, kind of a little bit ahead of ours when it came to how they were organized. So we're definitely more aligned with sales in terms of, you know, kind of our approach here from a campaign standpoint as well. Kathleen (34:45): That makes sense. So you, your team is responsible for campaigns and you're, you're working on the portfolio stuff. I imagine that there are other groups within the company that are targeting the same customer audience that you are. And you talked about working closely with the demand gen teams. I'm really curious how do you, as a company resolve, making sure that it doesn't look like the right hand, isn't talking to the left and when the customer starts to get these different campaigns and communications. Nipul (36:05): Yeah. Yeah. That's a really, really great, great point. Right. So so ultimately there's definitely a lot of, lot more collaboration. So for example, we've got campaigns aligned to each of the different personas that we'll speak to, and for each campaign, there's kind of a list of accounts that you target. Right. and the idea here is every week, like, as a team overall, we get together to say, okay, what are the programs that we're launching this week? And, you know, what's the potential for overlap. And so that's something that we're consciously, always looking at. And based on the specifics of the individual program, we may decide like, okay, it's okay for us to kind of send these two emails, targeting two different personas at the same company with two different offers. That's totally cool. But if it's the case where you're trying to send one, email, two different emails to the same persona at the same account within a particular week, that, that we don't find as much any more, to be honest, because what we've found is you know, because we've structured these campaigns to be persona specific and each campaign has its own list of accounts. Nipul (37:25): You know, we rarely encountered a situation where we wind up sending to a, like a marketing leader. We're only sending the messages through the through our campaign that targets the marketing leaders, if you will. Right. and so we don't necessarily see that conflict as well, but you know, there are instances like we'll definitely be sending for example, emails and offers to one account but two different personas in that account. And we're constantly looking to make sure that, you know, there's not a lot of conflict there that we're not hitting. You know, we're not seeing as spammers if you will, for that account. So as a team, we kind of go through that. And I, I have to tell you that that's probably something where we need to improve on just in terms of developing more of a process oriented way of solving it right now. That's definitely more of a one-off thing that we're doing on a weekly basis as a cross-functional team. Kathleen (38:26): Well, I think, I mean, if you figure out how to solve that, there's probably a whole nother market opportunity. And so you described, you described having a weekly meeting where you any conflicting campaigns but is that, is that same approach how you handle, because you talked earlier about having always on campaigns. And I imagine that's really where the biggest opportunity is to kind of trip up because you've got all this stuff running in the background based on rules. And how do you approach that? Because I don't have a good answer for that. Nipul (38:57): Yeah, no. So what we'll, what we do is we basically, we look at things like we, so you know, we'll every week as we look at the reporting in terms of which of our target accounts, in which of our buyers within target accounts, are we actually pursuing you know, those are great ways for us to be able to identify like, Oh, why are we like sending, you know, the same email or like two different emails to the same person? Did they in like three days? Right. So after the fact we're definitely able to like, capture that. We also you know, again, if you think about it, like we have a campaign running against marketing leaders we have a campaign running against sales leaders, and then we have a campaign running against sales and marketing, like rev ops leaders. Nipul (39:45): Right. and so because there are very specific titles that fall into each of those personas. You know, we don't, we haven't necessarily run into a lot of the, you know, on the outbound anyway, we haven't necessarily run into any of their conflicts, the conflicts come in where let's say it's a rev ops leader that fills out an offer for our for an offer that was intended to on our website that was intended to the marketing layer. In which case we have internal kind of pre negotiated rules of engagement, if you will. That again, reflect the current priorities of the business where we say like, okay, if it's a red lobster leader that raises their hand for an ABM platform offer, then you know, let's make sure that we're forwarding them to the right the row to the right SDRs for, for qualification. Kathleen (40:42): Yeah, that makes sense. Now, the other question I have is you talked about how in account engagement is a very important kind of measure for you in terms of the quality of interaction and the responses to your marketing, as opposed to the hand raising and the leads. And this is something I've always grappled with. You know, when I look at things like lead scoring engagement, you, you have your demographic elements to scoring, and then you have your behavioral elements and, and engagement being a key behavior element. But I I've seen many cases where, where engagement scores don't work well because it's like, Oh, page views and email opens and this and that, and that it doesn't necessarily always equate to an in market person or quality leads. So how do you, how have you made sure, how have you architected your engagement scoring so that, you know, that in this case activity does equate to interest and lead quality? Nipul (41:41): Yeah. And so that's where part of this is like, it's an ongoing kind of, we're tweaking this as, as we go along. Right. and so what we'll do is we'll kind of put different weights based on different types of activities. And right now we're at a stage where we kind of have a hypothesis as to what those weights are. Right? So if someone, for example, engages with us at kind of a highly curated online event, right. The equivalent of like a local dinner that we might be running, that's definitely weighted a lot higher than someone who just downloads a top of funnel, like white paper, right. So we, the way we've architected it, we kind of take into account, not just the person who's in the titles and all that stuff around, who's actually engaging on the CTA. But we'll also look at, you know, what kind of engagement that is, right? Nipul (42:39): Whether it's a website visit, whether it's a download of a top of funnel, piece of content, whether it's just clicking on an ad, whether it's attending a webinar or an online event that's curated. And so we've got different weights associated with those that enable us to just really calibrate that. And right now, you know, we, we have kind of an initial model of that running. And you know, just based on my prior, cause we actually had a model of this running out loudest and we found that it requires iteration, right? You need to constantly tweak it. And again, that's where having a really good relationship with sales is absolutely critical. Right. you know, the SDR is actually within marketing. So I considered them to be marketing, but then also the, the reps in terms of, you know, the leads that we pass over to the reps, just kind of having that close relationship and that constant feedback with sales. You know, so in addition to the cross-functional marketing team that I talked about, we also have a weekly kind of leadership sync between sales and marketing. Right. and so there's a lot of, you know processes that we've put into place to make sure that that feedback is ongoing so that we can continue to iterate on this engagement model. Kathleen (43:56): That's great. Well, I could talk all day about this because this is such a complicated topic, but we don't have all day. So I want to make sure to ask, I know you're not far enough into this where you have really concrete results yet, where you can say this was the transformation the before and after, but I imagine anecdotally you have some interesting results that you might be able to share. Nipul (44:19): Yeah. Absolutely. Right. So you know the way I'll phrase it is, we've seen improvements in terms of our engagement rates within our target accounts and the segments that we've created, the high propensity segments. So at the top of funnel where we were looking to, like, we have programs running against targets that haven't necessarily engaged with the D&B brand, like they haven't visited the D&B website or whatnot. So these are effectively cold prospects. What we've seen is we've seen a 45% increase in terms of engagement from prospects who haven't necessarily engaged with us ever or at least in the last 12 months. Wow. Yeah. And then, so we've been able to, you know, kind of leverage our you know, our, our intent data and our targeting to, to help, to kind of achieve that. And at the same time, we've also been able to, you know, just improve on the ROI of our digital campaigns. And again, the reason for that is because we've been more targeted, right. We're not doing necessarily spray and pray anymore from a paid display campaign standpoint. And so we've been able to just make more effective use of our digital dollars there. Kathleen (45:41): And that's in what time period, because this didn't, I mean, this hasn't been in place for very long. Yeah. Nipul (45:46): Right. Yeah. No. So that's something that we've seen over the last three quarters. So yeah, so we started kind of in earnest around this earlier this year. And so we've seen kind of the improvements over that time. Kathleen (46:00): 45% improvement is huge, especially when you have the volume that Dun and Bradstreet has. And especially during a time, like COVID, when many marketers are trying to keep their noses above water. So kudos to you and your team on that. All right. Shifting gears, before we wrap up, I have two questions I always ask all of my guests. And I'd love to hear what you have to say on this. The first one is, this podcast is all about inbound marketing. So I'm curious if there was a particular company or individual that you think is really showing the, the way when it comes to being a great inbound marketer. Nipul (46:37): Well, I mean, inbound marketer for my Marketo days, and I still contend she's one of the best, Maria Pergolino. I think so she was the head of demand gen at Marketo way back when and then, you know, now she's off doing great things at she was at Anaplan, I think, and now she's at Active Campaign. She's their CMO. So she's awesome. Just as inbound, like in terms of setting up these huge inbound campaigns that deliver a lot of great results you know, obviously HubSpot from a company standpoint has always done really well there in terms of that. But outset. So I'm not going to just rely on that. I mean, I think you know, I'm, I'm a big marketing geek, so I try to sign up for as many offers as possible to see what people are doing. Nipul (47:28): And, and so from a content standpoint, from a tactic standpoint, and so I found that like, NerdWallet is actually really good at inbound marketing specifically their content you know, use it to how they use content is, is really effective. I'm assuming it's effective. I just think it's really compelling from an end user standpoint, Notion and they, they provide kind of this Wiki like collaboration software for B2B and B2C. I, I think like they've been doing a great job as well in terms of their inbound marketing. So those would be my like three examples if you will, Maria, from a person standpoint and then Notion and NerdWallet from a company standpoint, Kathleen (48:15): I love that you called yourself a marketing nerd. I too am a marketing nerd and we love marketing nerds around here at this podcast. Second question, speaking of marketing nerding out the biggest challenge I hear most marketers talk about is that it's just so hard to keep up with the incredible pace of change within the world of digital marketing, particularly how do you personally stay up to date and keep yourself educated? Nipul (48:42): Yeah, I mean, I think so two things. Like, you know, first as I mentioned earlier, I mean, I try to just see what other companies are doing as much as possible B2B and B2C, because again, from a B2B standpoint, there's a lot to be learned from B2C tactics. So I like to sign up for a lot of offers just to see how other companies do it. So that's kind of that firsthand research, if you will, that's always ongoing. The other thing is obviously there's no shortage of communities out there and people to follow on Twitter and whatnot. You know, one community that I found really effective is the Revenue Collective community. I think you're a part of that as well. Right. And so I, I find that the discussions on Slack are really, really you know, are really insightful and really deep and really kind of cut to the core of, you know, what a person in our position would care about. Nipul (49:45): So I found that was really effective. You know, and then a whole bunch of just, you know, other folks that I follow on Twitter you know you know, ranging from like Scott Brinker to Sangrum, you know, to, to, you know various other folks. So that, that you know, kind of just, again, like just kind of a news network, if you will that helps me to keep abreast of what's what's the latest and greatest, but I, I do have to say that the thing, I mean, it's funny, like over time as everybody kind of joins these communities and starts following the same people, everybody taking away the same lessons and you see a lot of commonalities in marketing. So I've started doing more and more of not just tech companies, but also just looking at more, you know, I keep kind of a personal you know, on my hard drive, I have all these Google word docs with screenshots of like ads or non-tech company offers that I just feel like you know, we'll, we'll provide a better lesson for me in terms of understanding, you know, kind of different angles, different tactics and so on. Kathleen (51:02): Yeah. The echo chamber effect is definitely real. And I liked what you said about looking at B2C because it's true. I mean, even though we say we're B2B, we're still selling to people within these businesses. So it's like, it's all about selling to human beings, regardless of whether equity for a company and our spending the company's money or spending their own money. Exactly. That's great. Well, Nipul, if somebody wants to learn more about Dun and Bradstreet and, and some of the stuff you talked about, the products they have for sales and marketers, or if they want to reach out and ask you a question or connect with you online, what's the best way for them to do all of that? Nipul (51:36): Yeah, sure. So so first of all, just always available via my Twitter handle @nipulc. The first initial of my last name, I'm also available on LinkedIn. And then for D&B just check out D&B.com. Kathleen (51:58): Awesome. I will put links to all of those things in the show notes. And so go check those out if you want to connect with Nipul. And if you're listening and you liked what you heard today, or you learned something new, I would love it if you would head to Apple podcasts or the platform of your choice and leave the podcast a review. And if you know somebody else who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me at @workmommywork because they could be the next interview. Thanks so much for joining me this week Nipul. Nipul (52:25): Thank you. Thanks for having me.  

17 years ago, today's guest received a call that his dad had cancer. Two years later, his mom got cancer, too. Yet, inspired by his parents' survival, he had a new determination to focus on what he could control in life. That's when he connected the dots that everything is a puzzle, available to solve; health, business, life. He's now on a mission to help others live their best life by giving each person permission to find what works best for them as an individual. Please welcome Scott Stanfield. Scott Stanfield, thanks for jumping and learning from others. How are you doing? Oh, I'm doing great. How are you? Good. Uh, you and I know each other out, so we, you know, a lot of these times I have these podcasts guests and when we chat, it's the first time, but you and I will get into how, um, you and I started chatting together, but not until I ask two questions. Question number one is what's your background and why should our listeners be caring about what you have to say today? Well, my background is almost 33 years restaurant management and, uh, the right place at the wrong time or the wrong place at the right time. And yeah. Went from dishwasher with no experience to manager in a summer. So 90 days, yeah, it was pretty, pretty wild ride, you know, to go from dishwasher to prep, cook to, um, mind cooked expediter to, Hey, we've got a position for you as a manager and, uh, so bye. And, you know, I've worked as a restaurant manager more than I've done any other part of the restaurant. I know how to do all of those things that I have worked as a server and a bartender, but you know what my background really is, is working in one of the most stressful environments that you can imagine, and really trying to, um, deliver excellence five star reviews with, um, You know, not everybody speaks the same language and you know, not everybody has experience and not everybody's trained. So a lot of entry level people that are just passing through and, and so, um, and then how to manage myself and really live the healthiest life is really what I, what I talk about now. And, um, you know, because I did a lot of things wrong. I had to, I had high blood pressure at 1331. Um, I, I was overweight twice, had to lose 40 pounds twice. So that's really what, what my background is. And I'm sitting here taking notes. I've got a lot of stuff. Uh, I want to touch on, but not until question number two, which is okay. So you told us all these cool things about, ya know, let's learn more about what you suck at. What do you suck at Scott? Well, I think the reason that I figured out how to, you know, live a really healthy life in a stressful environment, because I really sucked at it in the beginning. I didn't know how to do that really. And you know, all things being equal when I was a PE major and athletic training major at university of South Carolina, it was 157 pounds, you know, five foot 10. I was, you know, you know, ripped and, and everything was great. You put me in a restaurant, am I. I gate, I go to 185 pounds, right. And not sleeping and drinking too much. And those types of things and what I sucked at was, was balance. And I think this is what I'm really delivering, is what I've learned through the process of getting balanced in my life. I was going to ask you how you went from, you know, the PE to you saying you've been overweight twice, but that makes sense that you already hit that. So why don't we just kind of start there? So you and I met because we had a, we have a mutual friend, Sean Boucher is actually been on the show and I messaged Shawn and said, Hey, I'm looking for somebody that knows this and this about, uh, certain types of diets. Sean is a chef as well. And he said, uh, I'd be happy to help you, but I think. My friend Scott would be better suited. So that's how you and I got, uh, got connected and we've talked a lot. And what I admire about you is a lot of what you touched on is, um, you know, some of the listeners will know that I, I acquired an auto immune condition a while back, and as I've tried to explore that and figure out how to make the most of, of life with that condition. Now I've talked a lot of doctors and it's just kinda like, well, Here. Here's what you got and here's the options, the end. And there aren't really options. And so when I talk to you about it, I was, I was really appreciative of what you touched on, where you set up. I've had problems with health, and I just figured it out. I just delve into it, trial and error, AB testing. And that really resonated with me because that's what I've been doing. Cause I felt like talking to doctors was just like, Very black and white and you know, all, all, all conditions are the same. All solutions are the same. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work the end. And so I was really drawn to you and I connecting for that reason. So why don't we kind of start there and is that, that, is that the way that you've kind of always been, or because you started realize you're gaining weight and being unhealthy, he said, shit, I need to do something. And you're just kind of forced to figure it out. Well, it's, it's an operating system that really came from my childhood and that being okay. Race go-karts, uh, really wanted to be a NASCAR driver. I wanted to be Dale Earnhardt and, um, And so what happens is, um, you know, when you're a racer and I would, I did, you know, really well. And my parents really, you know, backed me in, in the best I possibly could. And I was fully sponsored by kart shop that made their own chassies and had engines. And so I had a full ride. I didn't cost me anything to race for like the last six years of my career, one, you know, national championships and state championships, and other awards in there as well. And. Eraser does AB testing all the time Right. And you're also are willing to scrap what was working last week because you got beat this week or adjust it and tweak it and do those types of things. I think that's one reason why I was successful in the restaurant business. So early is because I came in with this operating system that allowed me to see. The whole system as a systemically and you make this one adjustment that affects this thing because you change a left rear tire, even when you're racing ovals, and it could change your track time by two tenths of a second, if it's two solved or you had to run too much air in it or too little air in it, those types of things. And so everything's a puzzle for me. And so I lay these systems over everything that I do, and it happened to be, I did the same thing with my health and. You know, when you, okay. So you're working at a time when you're like, okay, I don't have time to sleep now. I mean, you know, or I don't have, I'm really busy. What do I give up? And a lot of people give up sleep, and that's the worst thing you can give up. And we can talk more about that later, but, um, You know, so I had to like figure out how to make all these pieces work and, and what were the elements in this? Just like, what's the element and being a great entrepreneur and a business, you got to have a good product and a service and solve a problem. And you got to have a marketing plan, got to have good SEO. If you have a website, you know, those types of things. So people can find you, it's the same thing with your health as well. Why? So I already stated, I admire that in you and I find myself to kind of fall under that umbrella of putting everything in life as an algorithm and the puzzle and figuring it out. Why are other people not like that? I don't expect you to have an answer, but I'm going to see if you do well. I started talking about Bruce Lipton and epigenetics and, you know, basically what we are as copies of the first six years of our lives. Right. Because our brains are in theta. Excuse me, our brains and data. When we first are born to the first six or seven years of our life, and we're seeing what other people are doing. It's why there's multiple generations of Irish people in New York that are in the fire department or the police department. And there's, you know, multiple generations that are doctors or attorneys or truck drivers or those types of things. And it's because we see what we see other people and how they solve a problem. And so these, these way we handle problems are handed down to us. Um, generation after generation of generation, just in this first six years. And, you know, I think the only thing that's going to change the way we think is repetition or desire to be really good at something or an impact, right. Uh, you know, there's things like death and divorce. It really changed our personality. You know, that can happen that way, but repetition is a big piece of that. And when you're driven, you know, to succeed at something, and for me, that was racing, I raced for eight years and I never won a race. I raced for 15 years total and won multiple national championships, eight state championships, and with sportsman of the year for the national series. So, um, I was put into an element to where. You know, there were no radios in the, in the helmets racing go-carts it was against the rules and way dads couldn't coach you to block or do this type of thing. So I had to figure those things out at age seven and age 15, I was going a hundred miles an hour, 80 miles an hour, depending on the track size and, you know, age 17, I'm going 110 miles an hour with a, you know, A 20 horsepower, you know, on, you know, sitting beside me, I'm racing on a fifth mile, uh, and going around it. And I'm like 11.7 seconds, right? Turn in 10,000 RPMs. And I'm 17, 18 years old. So you think differently when you're put in that situation, on the high level, not racing as people ended up making in the NASCAR. So it wasn't like, it was just like this. Go-kart that you think of, you know, just at a fun park, right? Or, you know, K speed on an electric car, there's a similar, but it was open tracks and, and, and rules and, and I mean, it was just an intense culture to be part of. So I think it is, has to do with striving to be excellent and trying to, I was trying to solve these complex problems at a very young age and it just carried over into my being an adult. Hmm. So, so you had about a 15 year career span, but the first eight of it, no success. And then it was the latter, the latter half where you started to get some wins. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I. You know, it was all about learning how to do it. Right. And you could only do it. And there was no internet. There was no video games other than pole position in the arcade. No, it was like, it wasn't like I was gaming it, you know, on the weekend or during the week. And they go into the weekend and doing it. It was all like old school visualization. Right. You know, and I mean, I was sitting in my go-kart in the backyard, you know, I get my mom to help me pull it out when my dad was at worst, I could sit in it and do that. And so you're. You know, and so it was like you had to learn it and you can only do it when you went to a race. And so the scene of that is, uh, a couple of them, as I've learned that, you know, life is really more about slow and steady wins the race, right. You know, where you have to really put the time in to learn a skill. And I had to learn the skill cause I wasn't as talented as other people and to learn other aspects of it. I had to make the go-kart. You know, be faster than other people because I wasn't a better driver than everybody else. Another thing is, is my dad understood that how, what he called seat time was so important that we would go to an asphalt race on Saturday morning. And then at night we would drive over and go to the dirt track. And with the same cart, we would race at two different races in the same day to get as much seat time as possible. And also every condition, if it rained, I was out there drying the track off the, what, the track on the dirt track. I was out there doing that. So I learned how to drive in all these different conditions. And, you know, I live in the mountains of park city, Utah, and she'll drive in the snow is fun for me. It reminds me of driving on those slick dirt tracks. And when I was a kid. You know, but, but yeah, it takes time to learn a skill and it took me time to learn how to win. So it was a gradual progression where you would, okay. I finished last right then I would finish next to last and then I would move up and I'd okay. I finished 15 out of 20 and then I, then I go to a national race and I wouldn't even make the main event. And then next thing I'm going to, you know, a couple years later I'm going to a national event and I finished in the top 10 and you'll get trophies back. Then you'd give trophies to everybody. Right. You know, you would, you would go and I would finish six and a national race and I would finish six, six. So I kinda got to that spot now. And then, and the next thing, you know, I'm qualifying first at a national event. And then we go to like a world championship in Daytona and I qualify, you know, third and finished second in the race and, you know, and then next thing you know, it's like, um, you know, winning points, championships, and, and those types of things. And so it just put, progressed up and. And the life lesson in that for me was you have to love something long enough, uh, to, to go through the tough parts to get good at it. So you gotta love it enough to go through the tough parts. Yeah. Do you remember that first win? I remember the first state race win or one of the very first ones. Um, I'm being chilled thinking about it. Yeah. Um, Oh gosh. Um, You know, I was a junior, I was an older, so it was probably 14. 15 years old. Um, when I won this race, it wasn't my home track. And the track conditions of dirt, dirt tracks changed, especially when you had the, it depends on how many people came and the weather and how much they wet it. And if you put calcium in the water and all these types of things. And so yeah, knew the track really well, but it never really got this hard and fast. And so when tracks dirt tracks got hard and fast, a lot of my asphalt road core skills would kick in. And most people specialize. They either race, dirt, or they race asphalt, they re did, did both. Right. And, um, luckily for me, you know, the team that I drove for, uh, Charlie Sox is the owner Sox racing. They made shadow carts for years. He, um, He was one of the very, he was the very first person to ever win a national championship in both surfaces and, and configurations. That example was set in our shop. That is like, this is just what we do. And we can, we can move back and forth between those things. And so versatility was a big part of what we did and what we do. And, uh, the guy that I raced with Dan, he still races some and he's building engines and. You know, he's got his sons involved in doing a lot of stuff there now. And so it's really, and I worked there 30 years ago when I was in high school when Jen just out of high school before college. All right. So I want to jump ahead a little bit. You had mentioned that after racing days, you started in a restaurant, um, or was, was day one in a restaurant still when you were younger and doing a little bit of racing. I kind of blended them together a little bit, but I, I had retired from racing. Really. I had decided that I w you know, cause you back then you couldn't make any money, a go cart racing. It was like, it was just a, a hobby that you did. You know, I got a full ride, but I didn't make money at it. I worked at the go-cart shop making $6 at 50 cents an hour. That's when I started there, I was making a minimum wage at $3 and 5 cents an hour. So it wasn't like breaking the bank in any way, putting in 40 hours working on go-carts and then race working on my personal carts after work and on the racing on the weekends and those things, it wasn't like I was waiting tables or any of those type of stuff. So I broke clean of that. And probably about six months just kind of worked at a land surveying company. They really convinced me that I needed to go to school. I had already gone to technical school to be a machinist. I think that's another piece of me understanding how these pieces fit together, put together. And, uh, just with a couple of classes left and I decided I didn't want to be yeah. A machinist. And so I started going to university of South Carolina and I'm like, what are my interests? My interests are business and athletics. Uh, so that's how I ended up. I flipped a coin when admissions called me, you can't do both. I flipped the coin and decided to be a PE teacher. And they talked me into double major. And when I went to orientation, so I was athletic training major and PE, which serves me, serves me well. And so. There was a break. There was a small break in there. And so then what happened is my love has always been racing. That was my first love. My first passion. And that brought in, you know, working out and exercise and go into the gym because the stronger you were cause there no seatbelts it to hold yourself in the, in the cart. Right. You just pitchers. One side of my neck was bigger than the other holding the helmet. Right. I was like all set, you know, it was like really kind of, I had a mullet too, which I'll never show you this. Right. Uh, but, um, it was, it was. Really nice mullet. And I'm telling you this, is there such a thing back in the eighties? Uh, there was, yeah, I was early blonde hair and, you know, hang it. You had to get your mullet long enough to where it hung out the helmet long enough where the girls liked it. Right. So it was kind of, I'm laughing because I have a brother in law and his girlfriend is just absolutely in love with mullets. She's posting all the time. Anytime she sees like a mullet meme. That's her jam, but, uh, so there was a break for me and then I started going to school and then I had, you know, it was a really cool thing. Um, one of the, the kids that I help, one of the juniors I helped with racing go carts. His dad owned an apartment building was an old mill. That was, um, Down across the street from the engineering building right off the campus of university of South Carolina. And, um, uh, it was mr. Huffman and I helped them at one race and gave them my setup that I had done. And that was one of the biggest races I ever won. It was really quick that that day. And, um, and I gave them my set up because. The people who were helping them were really good friends of mine. We used to be on the same team together and those things. And so mr. Huffman, let me live in this apartment building for free for my first year of school. And then he sold a building and I had to start paying rent and all those things. And I'm like, I need to get a job. And I'd always told me, I told myself that if I didn't make it into a NASCAR, that I wanted to own a restaurant and I don't know why it was just a draw to it. I don't have the energy or any of those things. And. Uh, of it, but we ate in a lot of restaurants that we traveled. So that was something that drew me to it. And I applied it probably 15 different restaurants didn't get hired. And finally, I got a referral from a guy that I was a bartender at this restaurant opening out on Lake Murray and he was friends with the people opening it, and we were in the same training classes together. And he made a referral and I got a job as a dishwasher there. And, uh, haven't looked back, you know, that's crazy. I was going to ask you, um, you know, if you had an interest in, in the restaurant world beforehand, so that's interesting. Now you had made a comment when we first started talking that the restaurant industry is the most stressful environment you can imagine. Why is that, you know what goes on behind the scenes? You touched on a couple about, um, differences in language entry level position, people come in and go on, but us as everyday customers, what do we not see? You? Don't see. People's lack of commitment to the job. You don't see. And so therefore there's probably in bigger restaurants, multiple call outs every day. So you write a schedule that with all things being equal, there's very little padding in it for taking into consideration of somebody calls out because your trial. Uh, most of my calls out sick, right. Or, you know, here in park city call out because was a powder day or, or at the beach, because the surf's really good. Uh, you know, cause I worked in Santa Monica, I've worked in here in park city, Utah, you know, Hilton head Island, uh, you know, all these different places. And so you're, you're hiring people who are, you know, they're in town for different reason. And so. You know, people may just like try to take advantage of it or another term that we use, they call up because they're hung over or have whiskey flu as we would say. Right. Right. And so what you don't see is that, you know, when you see a manager, that's actually standing at the host stand. It may not be because that's where they need to beat us because they have to be because somebody called out of work. Right. And so that's what you really don't see there. And you obviously don't see it for, if it's a closed kitchen, you'll see what's going on behind the kitchen. You know, someone like me as a general manager may be hosting, you know, and helping we call it, follow the bubble. People come in and you have all these people coming in and you're helping seed everybody. Then you're going in your back and you're helping make waters to get every, all the waters out. And then, um, and then about that time, what's happening is your pantry station is they're making cold appetizers. They're making salads and they're also making desserts. They're getting, they're making three courses and they're overwhelmed because it could've been somebody called out. It's just like your staffing is for one person and you're busier than you expected. So the general managers back there in a suit, a lot of times bailing out the kitchen and making desserts Brulay in your dessert and running the food out, doing all those things and, and that type of stuff. So there's a lot of things that go on and it's a very, this business is condensed in a very short period of time. And. Here's another really crucial aspect of this. There are micro deadlines for every single table or guest in the, in the building. You know, you can make a reservation for seven 30 and if I seat you at seven 35 you're okay. But if I push it to seven 47, you're upset because you have, why did I make a reservation? There's a deadline and you get sat down. And then it's like how long we were judging this. On a micro level, this experience, how long does it take to get you my water or greeted? Get my water, get my drink from the bar, get my appetizer, get my entree was my entree cooked the right way. How long? All the way down to, like how long does it take to get the check? Right. All those things where the customer is judging this there's probably. You know, sometimes, you know, 10, depending off as a fast casual walk in, or tend to 40 different micro deadlines that are, that are being happening at all with the same time at different places, even in one server section who has a four or five table section and having to hit all those deadlines. Yeah. You know, and that person could not get sleep that day could have been working. This is their second job. Um, I got a call from their boyfriend, girlfriend, or husband, or wife or kid texts, and they're been in dry storage and they got that and they're emotionally hijacked. It could be hung over. Right. It could be that too. Right? So there's all these things that are going on and people don't really take the job seriously a lot of times, cause it's not a profession for them. And you're trying to deliver five star experiences with all of those things going on with hundreds of people at one time, it's a pretty intense environment. And um, I guess that's why the saying is if you can't handle the, he get out of the kitchen, right. It's a pretty, pretty intense place. I imagine it sounds like the demographic that makes up a kitchen is, you know, part. Of the people like you that are super passionate about it. And then the other side is just people there temporarily. And there's, I imagine there's not a lot of in between the people that are semi committed, um, may want to pursue this as a career, but aren't, they got one foot in the door and one foot out is, is that. A fair assumption. It is you have, you have people who are, you know, you, you may have someone, a chef, the super passionate about food, and they may have gone to CIA, the culinary Institute of America. And, you know, you know, but their job is really more about placing orders and hitting food calls and hitting their numbers and doing those types of things and coaching and training and those things, they may spend some time on the line cooking, but you know, when you get to that level, You know, their, their commitment is not actually making great food. They may make, they may be in a position to make up specials and those things, it depends on how they structure their job. There are some chefs that they really are in the kitchen a lot more, and they have, uh, their sous chef, which is their under chef assistant to them, do a lot of the paperwork and do those things. So just, they structure different ways based off their desires and their, um, and their skill sets and those types of things. Um, but yeah, there, there are, when you think about it, you know, it's like it, you know, it's interesting level, a lot of positions are, and you work your way up and we're training people and, you know, they may be commuting from, you know, uh, have a longer commute and they'll change jobs, jobs for 50 cents more an hour. Right. That may be closer to them or maybe yeah, not. And so it's, you know, build team building is a very tough piece of the puzzle and hiring people that have the right characteristics is really a tough thing. And that's one of the things I really dialed in on. Okay. As I was, um, you know, as I was leading restaurants is how to hire people that. Um, really have the right characteristics, uh, and asking the right questions and understanding of what the answer to the question we're in the, to get the best possible outcomes for that. And so, yeah, having the right people in the cultivating the right ecosystem are the really two top things. Yeah. What is one of the most unique slash amazing slash bizarre slash standout memories that you have from the restaurant career? Uh, I think it's probably, um, uh, one of them comes to mind is, uh, Um, you know, getting, well, gosh, there's so many of them, what comes to mind is like getting chewed out by guests and really turning those things around. Right. One of them came to mind actually was this lady was her birthday. She's 95 years old and really going over and talking to her and her nieces, you know, telling me it's like, yeah, she's. The difference about her. She has a goal. She wants to live to be 105, and really, and really connecting with this lady. Who's 95 years old and saying that she wants to live to be 105, you know, you know, things go wrong. Right. You know, you think I just explained this whole system, these micro deadlines, you know, that are going on. I spent a lot of time working in a prime grade steakhouses like classic American Alcart steakhouses, uh, that are expensive and people really, if they're going to lay down that a level of money for their steak, they want to be cooked the way they want it to be cooked in. And as our job to cook this steak, And it's 1800 degree broiler to the temperature that they desire. And I remember this one particular one, this lady steak was overcooked and. Uh, it is really, really a funny situation. I had just finished reading the book by Chris boss, uh, his FBI hostage negotiation techniques, which is called never split the difference, negotiate like your life depends on it. And on top of that, I was the trainer for our hotel and restaurant on how to turn upset guests around. And there's really a psychological sequencing in this process. And the first thing is to hear. What they have to say, just listen intently. And it was really interesting. This lady, this takes over cooked is a bonus filet is a $65 steak and is overcooked. And the reason it was overcoats is cause the server mistakenly, um, you know, had, had, had done mistake. And so it was overcooked. And so I went out to her. I said, you know what? You know, ma'am, uh, I, I came out to talk to her. She was really upset. And, uh, I did everything I could to do it, but she wouldn't let, let me take the stake and she didn't want me the cook or another steak. Right. So she chewed me out. Tableside I've ruined. We ruined her, her husband's best friends, you know? Um, birthday because her stake was messed up. Right. It was really what she believed. Right. It was really odd thing. So we ended up, we did the best we could with it. And she was so emotional hijack. She went to the restroom and in hotels, restaurants, uh, the restroom is in the lobby of the hotel was not actually in the restaurant. Like it would be in a stand alone. So I'm standing at the host stand checking in with the hostess. She walks back in and she's. Tune me out again. He goes, I got you out twice for the same mistake that she wouldn't let me fix, or she wouldn't let me cook another steak, which when I say she wouldn't let me, it would have made things worse. If I would have delivered her another right. She was bad upset. And uh, so. You know, she threatened to she's in social media marketing, she's threatened to, you know, like, you know, slander us on social media and all these other things, but it was just the frustrating, most memorable thing with that is that I, you know, no matter what I did, she was unhappy. And so then I started using some FBI hostage negotiation techniques quarter to really, and it frustrated her and I was able to turn it around at that point. And so a mirroring technique, and then also a labeling technique, which I don't know if you've heard of that stuff and heard of Chris Voss, but it's super impactful and super, super useful, especially for a leader because you now have these tools when people are really upset and you can help connect them back to reality when they're they're hijacked. I like that. So does she end up chilling out a little bit? She calmed down a little bit. Uh, but I, you know, we obviously comp the entire steak, right? Because she didn't need it. She didn't like it, you know, and those types of things, but the unfortunate piece is, is that someone like me who really cares about their job and the service and the product that we're delivering is I want to get them what they want. I want to give it and the way they want it. And when somebody get that emotional, they won't let you do it as hard to, um, feel good about because you feel like you didn't do something right. Because, and not everything's gonna be perfect, but, um, you didn't, you weren't able to deliver what they wanted. And it did, you know, because of her, the reaction to it or emotional reaction to it. It did mess up the dining experience for that entire, our family and their friends. Yeah. Yeah. So you've taken a lot of what you've learned and kind of doing your own thing. Now, doing a little bit of health consulting and growing that. Um, how, how did you evolve into wanting to pursue that more of a one-on-one environment? Well, Well, I got furloughed from the job I had in Santa Monica back in March. And you know, this is something that has been on the back burner, uh, for me for a long time. I I'm, I'm really spending all this time doing all this research on how to. Nope, optimize my performance day in and day out in a very stressful environment. I was also inspired by the fact that my, both of my parents are cancer survivors with my parents got cancer in their mid fifties. My dad got prostate cancer, my mom, uterine cancer, and had to have chemo and surgery and go through the whole nine yards. And dad's 72. Now mom turned 70 in April. And so, um, they're, they're still kicking up a ruckus and back in South Carolina and, um, And so I was furloughed. I was like, okay, what am I, what am I going to do? I'd been doing a brand around being the restaurant GM coach and. Um, my, my life coach, a really good friend of mine said, Scott, modern longevity. Tara is such a strong brand and it's so needed right now. You know, you should consider it. And it took me like 47 seconds to really say, you know, you're what you're right. And. Because we took me out of the restaurant unless I'm asked specific questions. Like you asked me, I really don't think about it that much. I don't think about leadership that much. You don't think about those things. I'm not trying to solve those problems, but I'll wake up in the morning. I'm like, okay, what's my morning routine. Like I was waiting for you to come on. I did one round of Wim, Hof breathing exercises before that. I, um, you know, I've meditated this morning. Right. And I do transcendental meditation. Right. And so I think about. These elements of, of how I can, um, a optimize my performance today. I'll extend my health span tomorrow. Like my is obviously my genetic, uh, capability or expression of my genetics in a certain way to get cancer in my mid fifties. Cause both my parents got it. My, my dad's dad passed away cancer 62. So he probably had cancer in his mid fifties as well, or at least his late fifties. And then. Um, how can I move that out to 85, 95, 105. Right. So what I think about, so that has expended extending lifespan. So my, my, my dad's dad, um, pass away 62, my dad's 72, I'm shooting for 102. Right. So really moving it that way. So how did I get there? A really good conversation with someone who really knew me from the inside out and what I believed in and who I really am. And I listened to her. Do you think if that person didn't do that, you might not be pursuing this? I think so. I think I would have taken the easier route and continued with the restaurant GM coach and not taking the time to do this. COVID pivot. Like most everybody, a lot of people are doing. I probably would have still would have been like, I would have gone deeper on that. And it would, it goes, it would have been easier for me instead of saying and looking inwardly and going okay. Yeah, you bring up a good point that a lot of people are probably going through, as you said, a COBIT pivot to some people because they have an opportunity to like yourself to pursue something that's that they've had an interest in before other people not really having a choice and. You still hear me? Yeah, I guess you repeat that last one. I didn't hear it. Uh, now you're going to hair hall. Let me make a note to have Kevin cut this out. Okay. You bring up an interesting point about COVID pivot and some people are kind of forced into that circumstance. Other people have been fortunate enough, like yourself to have a little bit of a passion. Already in mind, on the back burner to jump in, as you started this journey, a lot of other people are a step or two behind you. Um, do you think that you've found enough momentum to carry or your way through to success? You know, what have you learned so far? Anything that helps people that are that one or two steps behind you catch up to maintaining that momentum? Well, I, I think that I've built some momentum for sure. And, you know, there's, I think that there's a chance that. I may have to step back into doing something on a smaller scale insight as a job to support my family, because unemployment is going to run out. At some point, I don't expect, you know, governments from the check checks from the government to keep showing up. And those types of things, which we only got one right back, you know, four or five months ago. Um, so I it's, you know, when you're starting something, you know, uh, it does take time sometimes to really. They're really gained attraction and the, and get the momentum. You think that, you know, the name of my brand is a word that hasn't really been use for 150 years. Longevity, Marion people don't really know what that means. They know what vegetarian means, you know, they know, um, you know, that someone's Quito or those types of things, but they don't really. Uh, and so I'm putting a word back into the English language that's very rarely used. So that makes it, that's one of the good things about the brand, but it's also one of the bad things about the brand. So I, you know, I know in the back of my mind that because I have a mortgage and two kids, a wife and eight chickens and, you know, two dogs, uh, two lovebirds and a cat. Um, that I got a lot of, a lot of miles to, depending on me to feed them. Right. And so, um, I may have to, you know, someone is single, right? And I've been, you know, working in a restaurant, you know, for, for five or six years. And they have a passion about, you know, about this and they have a low expenses. They could, you know, during this time they could have gotten, you know, personal training type of thing, and then go work in a gym as a personal trainer and transfer some skills that way. And that may be something that I do, but. I know that there's, there's going to probably need to be a bridge for me to make it to where I go full time and continue to do for this full time. But I'm putting up a hundred percent into whatever. Yeah. Why don't you define longevity Marion for us? Well, as long as you have a tear longevity plus Tarion right. And you know, for me, it really means it means extending your health span or the prime years of your lives out as far as possible. And. You know what it really means actually, when I searched it eight and a half years ago, when I thought of this word, I found it in a book on Google books and it was in this living green volume, one 24, and it was referring to people over a hundred years old. And we use that a word now centered in an area and where it's, you know, these blue zones where people live to be over a hundred years old and in the highest per capita percentages. And so this, it really is just about taking your health and giving it a long view versus like, what am I hacking today to feel good today, but making decisions that are good for the long run, like. Yeah, I've been keto for four and a half years. And you know, this, we've talked about this a lot. You've been on the keto diet too. When we start looking at blue zones, start looking at longevity diet by Victor Longo, dr. Victor Longo, um, they're 90% plant based and being Quito and being plant-based is difficult. I know that, um, you have to we'll call wrote a book called keto Tarion that has a lot of plant based recipes in there. And we even talked about that as well in it, you know? And so I'm migrating, you know, more, you know, more about being plant-based and now, because I'm really focused on the longevity piece of it versus just, you know, optimizing myself to, to live the best life and being able to skip multiple meals by managing restaurants and those things. I mean, I don't know. You obviously got food in the refrigerator, and I know you work from home, but imagine working in a restaurant where you have everything from bacon to cheesecakes and everything in between prepped, and you can eat it for free all day long and you're working 10, 12 hour days, right? It's you there's no garden is amazing. Yeah, it is. That's why I gained 30 pounds in a summer. And that's why I had to lose 40 pounds twice. Right. I was definitely spoiled. Right. When I wanted to have a salad, I was walked over to the salad bar, wash my hands, put on a pair of gloves. Here's the salad makes them want. And here's all these toppings right. Already prepped and cut. And I could just do this and I had six salad dressings freshly made. I could just put on there what I wanted. Oh, and can you cook me a piece of salmon to go on here? It was just like, it was. Like easy. And then I come home, it's like, I gotta make a style. This is going to take some time. Right. It's a different things. And there's just the other day at Costco, I bought these pre made beats. Organic beets are pre, pre cooked. It's been like, it's been like, it's like awesome. Cause I just gotta pull them out of the fridge and cut it up, put it on top of whatever. Yeah. It's convenient. So I'm never been really like, um, A meal prepper or those things, because I could just eat where I go to work.   And so I'm having to transition that way there. Well, as we get closer to wrapping up, I want, so you talk about extending life span, going past a hundred, correct me if I'm wrong, but was your inspiration. To be a 95 year old crappy man that complains about stakes. Is that when this all came to peak? Oh no, no, no.   Um, initially my first goal was just, you know, don't be fat. Right. And then it was like, don't get cancer. Right. That was the first really two things. And I knew I could control I'm going to put in and all my body. So, you know, I'm married. Super smart. Beautiful. I know you talk about your wife being hot, but my wife saw it too.   Right. So we're fine. Yeah.   And you didn't say your wife's hot or you just said she's hot, so we're good. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't seen the pictures yet. I don't know. I can't. I think, I think for me, my wife's hotter for me. Right. And so, yeah, but my wife had been a pescatarian, vegetarian and pescatarian for a number of years when my parents started got cancer and those things were happening.   So I switched my diet and. And then, you know, I was doing a lot of things wrong. You know, I was a fat vegetarian. I mean, when I turned 40, when I turned 40, I'm like, Oh, I'm doing everything right. And what I did is my diet, really, it made some markers better. My blood pressure went down because I had high blood pressure 10 years before that.   And so my blood pressure went from one 20 over 80 to like 100 over 70 by changing my diet as I got older, but I was 40 pounds overweight. And then, you know, then I started like, okay, what, what, what do I need to do? And then as like, I'm working at a hospital, um, salt Lake, regional medical center, you probably heard of it, the old Holy cross hospital and the director of food and beverage there.   And they do bariatric surgeries there. And one of the doctors said, you know, that. Weight loss is, you know, 70% diet. And I'm like, well, gosh, I'm just, all I did was started doing P90X. I didn't really change my diet really. Cause I thought my diet was on point cause I'm a vegetarian. Well, then I read this book called the warrior diet on intermittent fasting.   Okay. And nobody was intermittent fasting eight years ago, other than the guy who wrote the book. Right. It was like me and him that were doing right. You know, but now it's like some people who are like, you know, 20 years old are intermittent fasting and it's like, it's something new. And, and so as I progressed and I started putting all these blocks together of all these different things and doing, using Bruce Lee's.   Philosophy of absorb everything, keep what is useful discard, what is not, and make it uniquely your own. Because what I need for me is different than what you need. There's some similarities because to lose weight, your insulin's gotta be low, right? You gotta be at a calorie deficit at some point, and you can do that with keto.   Or you can do that by, you know, just doing calorie restriction. There's different ways to skin the cat, so to speak. And then as, as I, it became health span. And, uh, you know, in extending to prime years. And then when you a brand on longevity, your whole goal set, your mindset changes around that, you know?   And so this is something I plan on doing for another 45, 46 years until my mid nineties and being still being as close to a hundred percent as I possibly can be at that particular age, that's really the game. How can I be the best, a hundred year old? Yeah. Yeah. I like it. All right, Scott, you and I could go on forever cause you and I have a relationship outside of this podcast and we geek out on health stuff.   I'm going to, I'm going to call it a wrap right there and thank you for jumping on learning from others and give you the last few moments to tell our listeners how they can find out more about you. Well, you can try to figure out how to spell modern longevity, marion.com. Right. And do that search my name, Scott Stanfield.   And you'll, you'll see some, some things there. Um, and I hope that you put some links in the show notes. Um, on Instagram, my handle is @straightcabbage. Yeah. Yeah.   Uh, so as a good way to find me, um, there on LinkedIn at Scott R Stanfield and, uh, I, I put out a mix of things on LinkedIn, some leadership stuff, and, and also things about. You know, longevity and sleep and those types of things, um, you know, and health span and diet and, and, uh, you know, and Instagram's more about sometimes like what workout I'm doing, what food I'm eating, you know, those things I'm making.   And we have a private face group, group PI. We have a private Facebook. Book group as well, guys. Why can't I talk right now? Um, it's just called, um, it's modern longevity, Marion as well. So, um, if you want to join that, I asked him questions like Monday, I put, you know, it's Monday and you have 20% more likely to have a heart attack today.   So what are you doing to mitigate stress today? Right. And, and then Tuesday I put, you know, uh, Californians are less likely to barbecue on Tuesday and you know, day a week. And I went, duh, it's taco Tuesday. Right.   Uh, yeah. And really trying to put some cool articles about people who are really living the long Jared Jebbit turn lifestyle. I've also a podcast, modern longevity, Marion. Yeah. And, um, I'm, I'm really excited about that because I'm really starting to do some longevity, Marion spotlights, where I'm interviewing people that are really living it.   And so really dear friend of mine, that was a mentor of mine for about five years. He's 78, he's Quito. He fast for 36 hours once or twice a week. And, uh, we did, we did six mile hikes together and, uh, just really a cool, cool thing to really spotlight people are doing it right at that age. So I'm really excited about school.   Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Stop. Scott Stanfield, everybody modern longevity. Marion. We'll put the links in the show notes. Thanks so much, Scott. Thank you. It's my pleasure.  

BE SURE TO SEE THE SHOWNOTES AND LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE HERE Eve Picker: [00:00:13] Hi there. Thanks so much for joining me today for the latest episode of Impact Real Estate Investing. Two years ago after a substantial career in economic development, Patrick Quinton co-founded a startup in Portland, Oregon. Dweller manufactures Accessory Dwelling Units with the goal of addressing the very pressing housing needs of that city. Patrick knew that the city had the most ADU friendly code of just about anywhere, a 32x14 foot ADU could be set into a typical 50x100 foot lot without hitting the setbacks, and without requiring city design review. And so, Dweller was founded. You'll want to hear more. Be sure to go to EvePicker.com to find out more about Patrick on the show next page for this episode, and be sure to sign up for my newsletter so you can access information about impact real estate investing and get the latest news about the exciting projects on my crowdfunding platform, Small Change. Eve: [00:01:35] Hello Patrick! Thanks so much for joining me today. Patrick: [00:01:38] Thanks, Eve. It's great to be here. Eve: [00:01:40] Great. So, a couple of years ago, you co-founded a company called Dweller to address the pressing housing shortage in Portland, Oregon. And you've had a pretty substantial financial and economic development career. So, I'm wondering what prompted you to move to the uncertainty of a startup life? Patrick Quinton: [00:02:01] Yeah, I sometimes ask myself that as well. My most recent job, prior to this, was I ran the city of Portland's development entity. At the time it was called the Portland Development Commission. It's now called Prosper Portland. But, obviously in that role I had my hands in a lot of different, large-scale projects, and had benefit of lots of public funding, and so had an opportunity to have an impact in a way that, across a lot of different things, but when my time came to leave there and I was thinking about, not just kind of what I wanted to do next, but what type of role I wanted to have, I really felt like I wanted, you know, to use the cliche, roll my sleeves up and really be closer to the work. And in particular, I had been thinking a lot about private models of solving any of a number of public issues. And certainly affordable housing was at the top of the list. So, you know, I didn't leave with the idea of starting an ADU year company. I left to try and explore and think about, you know, what to do next. And my business partner, Brian, came to me with this idea, and at first I didn't think it was the right idea. I didn't think it had the opportunity to have as much of an impact as I had hoped. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized it really was the right opportunity to both build affordable housing, you know, to really have a direct impact, but also to prove a model that we both felt people had been toying with this, but really not making any progress. And so, it's always kind of a leap, and it's always, you got to drink a little bit of the Kool-Aid, but we really did feel like we were on to something new and kind of at the beginning. And so, you know it's been a fun adventure. Eve: [00:03:57] Dweller manufactures ADUs, right? And for those who don't know who are listening, what's an ADU? Patrick: [00:04:04] Yeah, so ADU stands for Accessory Dwelling Unit, which is an unfortunate name for something that we're trying to popularize. But it just means that it's a secondary, permitted unit on a residential property. It's typically referred to as a backyard cottage or a mother-in-law unit. But, in any form, it is a second living unit. And because it's a separate permanent unit, it can be used as a rental. It can be used to house a family member. Obviously, it can be used for somebody to have, you know, their TV room, but its power is in, it creates another housing unit on land that nobody assumes can accommodate any more housing. And so you're able to drop in additional housing supply without really having to acquire new land, or even disturb the kind of existing fabric of a neighborhood. So, it's backyard housing. I mean,  that's kind of the easiest way to talk about it. Eve: [00:05:04] So, it's a density play. It's really kind of utilizing expensive land in a more efficient way. Right? Patrick: [00:05:11] Exactly. There's no way that anybody could develop housing on the land in these types of neighborhoods without this type of unit that didn't have to acquire land and can be built on a small scale. It's the ideal way to take advantage of this excess land. Eve: [00:05:27] So, tell us about your model and how you arrived at it. Because I think there's lots of different ways of building ADUs. Patrick: [00:05:34] Once we dive into the ADU world and you learn more about it, you know, and we're on the West Coast, so the West Coast has been doing this for a while, you look and you see lots of ADUs have been built. But, basically, what's been going on is people who have money have been building a lot of kind of cool backyard houses. And so while they've been proving that you can do this, it really hasn't been available to mainstream homeowners who aren't sitting on a ton of money. So, we really wanted to create a model that would get a lot of ADUs built, but more importantly, really open the market up to more mainstream homeowners. So, we wanted to bring the cost down for ADUs and then help them finance it. And we brought the cost down by developing standardized ADUs that are built in a factory. So, high quality construction, but we're just taking out a lot of the waste and inefficiency that happens with building a unit on site. And so, that's really made our ADUs a lot more affordable than your average ADU. And then the second thing is, we've created a way for homeowners to finance an ADU without putting any money into it themselves. So, those are the two main things we wanted to address. And we feel like with those issues solved, we think, yeah, now your average homeowner and thousands of similar homeowners can now put ADU on their property when, you know a few years ago, that really was impossible. Eve: [00:07:06] Can you share with us how much it costs to build one of these pre-manufacturing units? Patrick: [00:07:10] So, our typical project is about 120,000 dollars, all in. So, that means that, you know, a homeowner can come to us ... Eve: [00:07:18] That's very reasonable. Patrick: [00:07:19] Yeah, when you consider the average price of an ADU here in Portland is around 200,000 dollars. And the average price in other West Coast markets in California, and Seattle, is around 300 or higher. So, yeah, 120 brings it into the range of affordable for many homeowners. It's still a big financial decision, but it's definitely a lot easier for homeowners to get over that hurdle. Eve: [00:07:44] Yeh, I'll say, that's pretty reasonable. And then, so, how many units have you built and operate to date, as a start? Patrick: [00:07:51] We built 15 units in total, and then, you know, I know we're going to get into this, but we actually own nine of those. So, we operate nine of those as a small portfolio of affordable ADUs rentals and we rent those out to long-term rentals. So, local residents, and they're sprinkled throughout the city of Portland. The other units we just sold. There's homeowners who come to us and have the money and want to buy from us. And we're happy to do that. And homeowners who buy from us who have money, you know, they like the efficiency, the no-hassle aspect of it as well. So, it's not simply that, you know, homeowners can afford it. It's that ADUs have traditionally been a big project for a homeowner. It's, they become a mini-developer and most people just don't have the time to do that. Because there's a lot of pitfalls along the way. So, we also attract a number of buyers who just want to buy ADU like they buy a car, or some other big purchase. They don't want to have to learn how the car is manufactured. Eve: [00:08:51] Right. Where are these located, the ones that you built? Patrick: [00:08:54] They're located in residential neighborhoods throughout our city. You know, Portland is, like many cities is, has tons of great residential neighborhoods. And what people don't realize is that in most cities, even in the city itself, you know, you walk down any residential block and there's a nice big backyard in these properties. Eve: [00:09:16] Yes, yeah. Patrick: [00:09:16] And so when you look across the landscape in Portland, where most of the residential neighborhoods are, if you were to fly over them, you would see all this space that you really don't see from the street side. And a lot of them are really modest neighborhoods with bungalow-style houses and homeowners who, you know, they want to have the extra income. That's really the prime motivation. Eve: [00:09:37] So, you are doing two things. You're creating affordable homes and extra income for people who need it. Patrick: [00:09:44] Yup, yup. Eve: [00:09:44] And the third thing I'm realizing as you're talking about this ... ADUs are built in places where there's already infrastructure. And so, they're going to be close in, and provide housing for people perhaps without needing a car because the developed neighborhoods have transit, etc.. Patrick: [00:10:00] From an urban policy perspective, that's one of the reasons why so many jurisdictions have been promoting ADUs, is because it's an easy win on the housing side. You don't have to fight over how you develop a big corner lot. You're dropping it in. You don't have to build new streets or sidewalks, like you're saying, and you get to take advantage of existing parks. And even, you know, schools. Like people ... this is an understated aspect of this. But when a household that typically rents gets the rent in a neighborhood that's primarily single family, owner-occupied houses, they're generally accessing better schools. And so, it opens up even that, for renters. Eve: [00:10:40] Yeah, probably better shopping and proximity to grocery stores, etc.. Patrick: [00:10:45] Exactly. Eve: [00:10:46] Yeah. So, what do they look like? Do you have a number of models? Patrick: [00:10:50] We do now. You know, as like any company, we started off with one model. You know, we really were trying to work out the kinks, but also just kind of see where customers are. But we generally sell units that are between four and 500 square feet. It looks like a one bedroom apartment. There's a lot of talk about tiny homes these days, which is another really great form of housing. But ours are bigger than that, and most ADUs are, and they look more like apartments than what people will see in a lot of these tiny home images. So, they have full bedroom, full bathroom, usually a shared kitchen, living space. ADUs can come in all sorts of architectural forms. But what's interesting about it is a lot of them have, what they call a shed roof or mono slope roof, which is different than most houses which have the peaked roof, gable roof. So, ADUs tend to have a little bit of a different feel there ... Eve: [00:11:41] It's a little bit more of a shed aesthetic, like the garden shed, yeh? Patrick: [00:11:46] Exactly. When you look into the back yard, you don't see a mini house. You see a structure that looks more like a larger shed. Eve: [00:11:54] Yeh. Patrick: [00:11:54] But inside it's built out like, you know, any apartment that you would see in a big apartment building. Eve: [00:12:00] Right. I've lived in a 450 square foot unit and loved it. It was the perfect size and there were two of us. So, if you don't have too much stuff, it's great. What makes them affordable? This is a loaded question, because I know you're also striving for affordability, just through your mission. I suppose the question is not what makes them affordable is small and well-thought through manufacturing, but what's your affordability mission beyond that is, I suppose, what I'm asking? Patrick: [00:12:31] I do want to actually just talk about one thing that, about affordability, before we get into making them affordable rentals is, and there's a lot written on this. You know, the average cost of a new housing unit is, you know, if you're talking about an apartment building or something like that, here, it can be 300 to 400,000 dollars, a unit. In California, the Bay Area, right, they're talking about 700 to 800,000. And ... Eve: [00:12:56] It's crazy, yeh. Patrick: [00:12:58] The mere act of building a new housing unit has become so expensive. And when governments and other organizations that care about affordable housing are rounding up dollars to build new affordable housing, they have to find a lot of money to build a number of housing units of any scale. So, to say I can build a housing unit for 120,000 dollars, regardless of what the purpose is, that's a big deal. And there are other companies doing this. So, the ADU industry is positioned to add a lot of housing supply at a price per unit that almost no other aspect of the housing industry can achieve. And, you know, one of the main savings is we don't have land cost. Right? So, it's not magic. It's not like, you know, somehow we've figured out the magical way of building that takes out of the cost. It's that we're leveraging existing land. So, basically, if it's a homeowner, the homeowner is kind of contributing that land to this transaction. But it's not money that we have to find. And then we generally, because we build small units, and if you are building the way we build in a standardized fashion, then you can take out all these inefficiencies, as I mentioned earlier. So, that's like this whole powerful part of the ADU world is ... Eve: [00:14:14] Yeh. Patrick: [00:14:14] ... if we really can figure out how to get thousands of ADUs built, we're going to be building those units at a lower cost per unit than pretty much any form of housing. Eve: [00:14:26] I mean, when you look at a multi-unit building, you're talking about fire sprinklers and stairs and elevators ... Patrick: [00:14:32] Exactly. Eve: [00:14:32] ... and, you know, accessibility, really expensive. Patrick: [00:14:36] Yup. Eve: [00:14:36] And all of that has to be subsidized to keep it affordable. Patrick: [00:14:39] Yeah. Eve: [00:14:40] So, tell me about the ground lease and, you know, who's interested in it. And what sort of success you're having finding people who want to do this. Patrick: [00:14:49] And so, as I mentioned earlier, we really wanted to help address the financing challenge for homeowners, and just a bit on that. So, basically an ADU is typically a project. It's taken on by a homeowner and the homeowner has to not only manage it, but pay for it. Eve: [00:15:03] They have to hire an architect and probably an engineer. Patrick: [00:15:05] Yeh. And so when homeowners go to pay for things like this, they typically are going and getting home equity financing. I mean, obviously, there's people out there who might have that money just sitting at the bank. But that's, that's typically not most people. So, they go and get home equity loans, and I think the home equity loan has certainly become pretty widespread over the past 20 years. So, everybody gets that that's out there. But when you really dig into the numbers, lots of people are sitting on small amounts of equity. Very few people are sitting on a lot of equity, certainly enough that's going to allow them to pull, you know, 120,000 dollars out in our case, but for the average cost, you're talking about a lot more. Eve: [00:15:48] Right. Patrick: [00:15:48] And even then, you're asking people to take out what is basically the bulk of their life savings. It's you know, the statistics all indicate that most people have their net worth tied up in their home. So, like, that's the ADU financing challenge is, it's all home equity based and most people don't have it, and the ones who do have to make this massive decision and ... Eve: [00:16:11] Oh yeh. It actually turn them into mini developers. You're asking homeowners to be real estate developers and work through all the issues around that. That's a lot. Patrick: [00:16:19] And so, that's just a risk profile that you're not going to find in your average homeowner. So, we wanted to figure out how do you finance this in a way that takes out all of those obstacles. And so we came up with, we didn't invent it, but we're one of the first ones to really try it, is to use what's called the ground lease. Under a ground lease we lease a part of the homeowner's property. So, we generally lease a defined part of their backyard. And then by doing that, we then have the right to develop on that part of the property, and then we develop the ADU ourselves using our own capital. So, we're building the ADU on the homeowner's property at no cost to them. And then we own the ADU then and we're able to manage it and rent it out. And then we share a percentage of the rent that we collect each month, back to the homeowner. And that's essentially our lease payment to them. So, once again, we're tenant in their backyard because we've leased that part of their backyard, so we owe them monthly rent. And so we pay them that as a percentage of the rent. And then the homeowner has the right to buy us out of that lease at a prearranged price at some point during the lease.  Patrick: [00:17:33] So, in essence, the homeowner is getting the ADU on their property at no cost to them, and then they can, when the time is right for them, choose to pay us back. Right? So, it operates like a loan, but it's not a loan. It's, you know, it's us going in and building and owning the ADU. And we think this is a particularly well-suited type of financing vehicle for ADUs, because not only does it overcome these challenges that we're seeing for homeowners who want an ADU but can't finance it or can't pull the trigger on taking all their equity out. But it also puts these ADUs immediately into the rental market, because we're owning it and then we're managing it like any other long-term rental. So, not only are we getting ADUs built, but we're getting them immediately available to local renters, which is one of the big policy objectives for promoting ADUs, is to have more affordable rental units. And then when the homeowner buys it out, they can decide if they're going to keep it as a rental. But for at least some period of time, five, 10 years, it operates as a rental unit in neighborhoods that really need it. So, it's just this kind of unique way of looking at how to get over the financing hurdle that has all these ancillary benefits. Eve: [00:18:53] So then, you're launching a crowdfunding campaign to raise equity on my crowdfunding platform, Small Change. And why are you doing that? Patrick: [00:19:04] The financing challenges don't go away just because we're building on aground lease. Somebody still has to fund this. And so, that financing challenge then gets pushed onto our shoulders. And so we've tried to figure out how to fund the development of new ADUs using a lot of traditional financing methods. And so, if you think about a real estate transaction, you know, you have some equity, you go out and you borrow money from a lender, and usually you can kind of piece together the right capital sources. But this structure is unique in that we don't own the land and we don't have rights to the land. So, you're asking lenders and investors to really bet on this structure and the stream of income from it. And even though I would argue until I'm blue in the face, how secure this is and what a great investment this is because of the regular income coming in, it doesn't look and feel like what lenders and investors are used to seeing. And so, it doesn't fit in one of these boxes. And so, we've tried to look for traditional lenders, non-traditional lenders, all sorts of folks who fund even affordable housing projects. And we just haven't found lenders who are willing to do this with an eye towards scale. And so, at the end of the day, we felt like there's a lot of interest in this type of housing. There's a lot of people that we talk to who love the idea of ADUs, who really want to see more ADUs built. These are average folks who want to help with the affordable housing crisis. And so, we actually have always thought in the back of our minds, you know, this would be a great crowdfunding opportunity, but we really thought, you know, we should be funding this in a traditional way. And we had to beat our heads against the wall for a long enough time before we decided, you know what, let's actually look into crowdfunding because we feel like there's a really strong interest out there for what we're doing. Eve: [00:20:58] Yeah. So, the challenges never end. Right? So, you've got a product that sounds like it's scalable, that may really help the affordable housing crisis. And yet you've not been able to find a lender to, at least lend, yo know, 60 percent of the cost of building these, even if you have to go find equity, which I personally find really shocking ... that we don't have lenders in this country that can think a little bit out of the box. I mean, there are, as you said, non-traditional lenders, lenders that are focused on affordable housing, nonprofit lenders with a mission to help affordable housing. What has to change for this to work? Patrick: [00:21:39] Yeah, this is multi-layered. So, the first thing is that I think that everybody can point fingers at each other. So, I think your actual lenders would point fingers at regulators and their auditors, and say, if I put this loan on my books I am going to get killed when audit comes around. Or they're going to say, point to actual, you know, this is how we have to underwrite them. So, you have that. I do think you have, regulators and auditors might come back and say, we don't say they can't do this. They just have to kind of make the case and show us how it's collateralized. So, I think some of it is this, like, you know, do I want to take this fight on as a lender when I can go look for another deal? So, I think there's a lot of this, like, who's self-interested enough to make it happen. And so, that gets to the second layer, which is getting scale on this proves it out, and then it will give, I think it'll begin to open up the eyes of lenders. So, I do think we need to prove out that there's a market for not just a lot of ADUs getting built, but also for folks with money that folks who deal in much bigger numbers with more zeros than we do right now, say, hey, I can put 10, 20, 50 million dollars to work right away, into this market. Now, I'm interested. So, I think we're in the chicken/egg classic stage. We've got to prove it out, get some scale, and show people not just that it's safe, because I think that's actually the easier argument to make. It's really can this thing be scale, can achieve scale, and can it really end up putting a lot of money to work? And so, whether it's a regulated lender or a group of lenders that come in and do this, or whether it's some more of a kind of investment banking type of approach, I think that scale is going to unlock, you know, one or both of those eventually to get more money into this market. Eve: [00:23:31] Or maybe crowdfunding is, if enough investors ... Patrick: [00:23:33] Crowdfunding, right. You're more the expert. I'm new to this. My natural inclination to think its smaller scale. But you're right, that, you know, the beauty of crowdfunding is maybe it is. Eve: [00:23:44] There are other platforms that have gone fairly large scale ... Patrick: [00:23:47] Right. Yeah, exactly. Eve: [00:23:47] ... but they have a very traditional real estate projects. Again, they're kind of following the model. So, I think Small Change is a bit unusual in that it will help developers like you with unusual projects that are awkward to finance is the only other way to say it, like awkward to finance, because we think that in the long run it's the right thing to do. So, I'm really excited you're doing that on our platform. Patrick: [00:24:11] I have one of our early investors, friends of family, this is a long time friend of mine. She does a lot of investing and she was one of the people who was really nudging us to explore crowdfunding. And she thinks just like you do, she thinks, like this is the way to scale, like she thinks this is just going to grow, and she has money to invest, so lots of options as an investor and she is sold on crowdfunding. So, she's in a lot of different crowdfunding deals. She believes this is the way to go. So, you, I think you're right. Eve: [00:24:42] Yeah. I mean, its, instead of investing your money in a bank or mutual fund, you invest it directly into what you care about. And that's a pretty beautiful thing. Patrick: [00:24:52] Yup. Eve: [00:24:53] Hopefully, there are enough affordable housing advocates out there who want to invest in affordable housing that will help you, and maybe we can find them. What does scale look like for you? Patrick: [00:25:04] I think scale, obviously, it involves not just numbers, but I think multiple markets. We operate on the West Coast, so we see the housing crisis really clearly, you know, and it's all relative. So, sitting in Portland, Oregon, we have a housing crisis. But then what we hear about in California, or up in Seattle, we know it's even more challenging. And then we know that communities across the country are all experiencing this. So, I do think that we want to see us being able to offer this ground lease product in other markets. And, you know, the beauty of what we're doing, and I think what's happening in the ADU industry, is that we don't have to be the builder. We can work with other builders and help them serve more customers in their markets by bringing this financing product to them. And we're seeing a lot of growth in new ADU builders who are building more affordable units in other markets. So, the issue is not going to be capacity. It's going to be how do we bring more financing options to homeowners? So, we think that's where the scale comes from, is being able to partner with builders in other markets. Eve: [00:26:13] And I agree. So, I have to ask, are there any other current trends or innovations that you think might help this crisis or might help construction costs come down, that you've been tracking? Patrick: [00:26:28] I'd like to be more optimistic. I do believe in cycles, so I think we're going to get out of this current moment. Where in the construction industry where costs are rising and we do have backlogs. The timber price goes up, there's no way to, you know, the housing costs go up. So, we're definitely in a challenging cycle there. I think that the more efficient that we build, the less waste that you have in the construction process, I think the less susceptible you are to those price changes. We're just going to get more and more efficient and there may be alternative timber products that are able to also drive the cost down there. I think the other issue, which kind of gets in a little bit into the weeds, but building a prefab or factory built AU, however you want to call it, you know, there's challenges in getting that unit into the backyard of an existing house. So, you can imagine a regular residential street in an urban neighborhood, or even suburban neighborhood. It's not like you can just back the thing in the backyard. It's usually not enough space. So, we're using cranes and all sorts of things. We have power lines. We have ... Eve: [00:27:36] Wow. Patrick: [00:27:37] ... lots of obstacles. So, there's a lot of properties that have space, the homeowners ready to go, the whole thing, and we can't get there. So, we're seeing a lot of innovation on how can you basically take the house and be able to, like, construct it on site. So, house-in-a-box. So, there's prefab walls and things. But how can you make that process as efficient as building it in a factory, but eliminate a lot of the installation challenges that we have? If you can, if we could figure out how to get those types of units into pretty much any property, regardless of how much space you have to install, or what obstacles in front, I think that itself is going to open up ... Eve: [00:28:17] Right, right. Patrick: [00:28:17] ... the ADU market. I think that innovation will happen. I think it'll happen more quickly than the financing innovation will happen. It'll make the financing challenges even more acute because you have more homeowners who are ready to move forward and they're looking at a, you know, 100,000 dollar ... And the other thing I'll just say which, every industry in the world can say this, but, you know, Amazon talks about selling these houses and you have an Airbnb, you have all these companies out there with massive scale that may or may not be able to carry through on this, but we should probably assume that some company of prominence is going to come forward with a solution as well. And I think it's good for the market, assuming they do it responsibly. Amazon says I can sell you a 20,000 dollar house, that's not, it's not it's an irresponsible thing. But it could really help with innovation, it could help with efficiency, those kind of things. So, I do think we're going to be seeing that in the next few years. We're going to be seeing some large companies that you wouldn't expect to be in the middle of this, are doing it. Eve: [00:29:25] I think it's a great idea, and I wish you all the best of luck. I can't wait to see how you grow and I hope you make your way over to the East Coast sometime, as well. Patrick: [00:29:37] Thank you, Eve. We do, too. We love the West Coast, and there's certainly a lot of work to be done out here. I get a lot of phone calls from folks in your neck of the woods. Atlanta, D.C.. We really do hear from people all over the country who want to see our model there. Eve: [00:29:50] So, financing, we've got to figure it out. Thank you very much. Patrick: [00:29:54] Thank you, Eve. Eve: [00:30:02] That was Patrick Quinton. Patrick launched Dweller to help address what he thinks is the most pressing issue in Portland, Oregon, right now: a critical lack of affordable housing. He applied focus to the problem and decided that in order to scale, he needed to deal with some key friction points. The first is the complexity of building an ADU, which most homeowners can't and won't tackle. And the second is finding financing to build one, which most homeowners don't have. By entering into a ground lease with the homeowner, and building and financing the ADU for them, Dweller has made the process as easy as can be. But now Patrick must struggle with an industry in its infancy and lenders who are not quite ready to go down the path of financing ADUs built on a ground lease. These are the growing pains of a company that is first in the marketplace. Eve: [00:31:06] You can find out more about impact real estate investing and access the show notes for today's episode at my website EvePicker.com. While you're there, sign up for my newsletter to find out more about how to make money in real estate while building better cities. Thank you so much for spending your time with me, today. And thank you, Patrick, for sharing your thoughts. We'll talk again soon. But for now, this is Eve Picker, signing off to go make some change.

It seems most brands are using email popups on their website. Today Jon dismantles this practice with passion, explaining why they're bad for everyone, and offering better alternatives. TRANSCRIPT: Ryan: Jon, we've spoke together quite a few times around the country, and then recently just around the internet, since we can't leave our houses. And almost every time we talk, you ruffle quite a few feathers when you're answering questions about email pop-ups. It seems that most retailers and brands out there on their websites, they are absolutely in love with their email pop-up campaign, they think it can do no wrong. And I personally don't like them because they're just annoying and I close them immediately because I'm trying to look at something else. And, but you're distaste, some may say hate, goes a little bit deeper within this space, but so many, again, so many brands are using these. It's just making me crazy. So, I want to talk about these and get your opinion, the backend and the numbers that are guiding your distaste for these. But even to start with, what do you think is pushing this trend and what data are these merchants seeing that's causing these email pop-ups for discounts or anything just to become the norm? If you don't have it, you're weird almost at this point. Jon: Brands, what they're doing is they see another successful brand they look up to have email popups and they say, "It must be working for them. We need to do this as well." It goes in line with all the little Shopify apps that are out there that just spread like wildfire overnight, and then they'd disappear just as quickly once everybody realizes they don't actually move the needle, but they saw their competitor trying it out, so they thought they showed as well. Tons of examples of that. I think that's generally what happens here, first of all. Second of all, the brands see that email is their highest revenue channel, most likely. And so, they say every time I send an email, it's like printing money. So I should collect more emails. And that sometimes even comes down from the executive level, down to that marketing manager who is needing to implement that, whether they think it's right or not. And third, I think what happens is that brands look at a success metric of how many people do we have on our email list. And they see these pop-ups collect email addresses. And so, they assume they are working. And I guess the goal that they usually have is just to collect email addresses at all costs, right? And they're thinking, "If I get someone on my email list, I can then continue to market to them and the rest will fall into line." And that just is a huge problem. It's, to me, it's the wrong way to be thinking about it. And after optimizing sites for 11 years, statistically, it's not accurate. Ryan: Being an e-commerce brand myself, I know that if my email list goes from 10,000 to 20,000, I'm probably making more money from email. So, where are brands missing the logic behind these pop-ups and not equating to larger email database equals more revenue from emails every time I send one? Jon: Yeah. I think, I don't have an issue with collecting email addresses. As I said, it should be, and looking at 10 decades of content and data around emails, it definitely can be your highest revenue channel. The problem I have with is the method of collecting, right? So, let's just start with that. I mean, we could, there's lots of directions, we'll, I'm sure we'll go today about the method of doing it around discounts and everything else, but let's just talk about the pop-up form in itself. And what I mean by that is just there are multiple ways to collect email addresses. You can start with those who have ordered and how you have the actual customer contact information that you own, right? If you doing an owned to sale, as opposed to something like an Amazon, then you have that information, people you can remarket to and continue to sell to. However, if you just put a pop-up on your site versus maybe even baking a form into the page, right? Where customers who are actually interested, will scroll down to your footer and they'll enter their information because they're super interested. Right? I would almost encourage anyone listening to this to set a separate form up in your footer and tag people who fill that form out as higher intent, because they actually are interested in what you had to say. Now, the problem with a pop-up, let's just talk about straight up pop up, not an exit intent, right? Ryan: So, you're categorizing your email pops up into different buckets? Jon: Yes. Yes. There's different types. And I think that's important here because the one that I want to eliminate from the internet is just the pop-up. As soon as I come to a site, or maybe as soon as I start scrolling or even the timed ones that come up within a couple of seconds of loading the page, those are the ones I want to eliminate. Now, exit intent. Let's put that in a different category. I'm not as opposed to those. But what I'm talking about here is the disruption to the consumer experience, the interruption factor as well. Think of your site like a retail store. Now I know your wife has a retail store, right? If I walk into her store and she jumped out at me and said, "Here's a clipboard, give me your email address." I'm going to probably have a negative reaction to that. Right? Ryan: At least she's cute. That does help. Jon: Well, Hey. Ryan: Popups, aren't as cute. Jon: Hey, you know what I mean? You could make, you could put a nice looking picture on a pop-up, but that still doesn't change the fact that I'm there because I have a problem that I'm looking to solve. And I'm at the website because I think that their product or service can solve my pain or need. And all of a sudden now, before I know anything about the brand, something led me there, was it I clicked on an ad or a Google search or someone told me about it, so I have idea that they can help me solve my pain or need. But then all of a sudden I just get there, I still don't know about the value proposition of the brand, I don't know much about their products yet, but then I'm getting hit up right away being asked to give them information. And I think that that's just disruptive and I can promise you every test we've run where we've eliminated that pop-up conversion rates have gone up on the site and sales and revenue. Now yes, you will collect less email addresses. But I argue that's not a bad thing in this case, with this type of pop-up. And the reason is a couple of faults. So, first of all, the email addresses you're going to collect out of those pop-ups are going to be very, I would argue they're not going to be very effective, right? Because you're getting a consumer who is entering their email address into that pop-up specifically to get rid of the pop-up in a lot of cases, because they... This goes into more things like negative intent shaming, because maybe in that popup, it's a pretty common trend now for a company to say something like, "No, I don't like discounts and offers." Ryan: Gosh, I hate that. I had that happen a couple of days ago. And I was like, "Of course I like discounts. I'm not an idiot, but I just don't like you telling me that I don't like discounts." Jon: Right. You're you're hurting the brand, right? And you're hurting your customer experience and that's damaged that you now have to repair. So, within the first five seconds of getting into the website, you're already have dug yourself a hole you have to get out. Ryan: Yeah. And I think brands are getting kind of like, "Ooh, we're kind of that little unique, give it to the man brand. And we're going to use that humor." [crosstalk 00:07:34] That doesn't necessarily come through because I actually don't know you yet. And maybe that's my first... I don't know that that's the type of brand you are. I was looking for a pair of board shorts. And now all of a sudden you're telling me I'm an idiot before I even know that you're, that's the voice of your brand. Jon: Exactly. Okay. This is another great example of real world for this, right? Popups are just like those people who canvas on the street corner, who come up and you're just trying to walk by and get to your next location, right? You're trying to get some job done in your life, going to the coffee shop or whatever it might be, you have a meeting you're walking to. And Greenpeace, not just to pick on Greenpeace, but they're out all over in Portland. They run up to you with a clipboard and they say, "Hi, can we chat for a minute?" And it's like, "No, I'm trying to get something done. This is not a good time for me." And then they follow you, "Well, did you know that this is happening with the environment? And this is happening." And it's like, "Yeah. You know what? That might still be important to me, but now's not a good time." And they're like, "That's fine. Just give me your contact information. We'll follow up with you." And it's like, "No, no, no. I don't know who you are." Right? I don't want to just give some random person my contact information. And then what are you doing with that contact information? So, I think the problem is, is that marketers stop having empathy for what the consumer is going through on the other side of the screen, and they just feel like it's okay because they can't see that person to do these really poor consumer experience activities on their site. And that's what I try to fight against with this. And unfortunately pop-ups is the worst example of this on the internet. And so, that's why I ended up fighting against it. Ryan: Oh yeah. And it's people like me that are probably helping give them bad numbers since my computer saves the email address na@na.com for all of my form fills that I don't want them to email me on and I'm like, "Yeah. Yeah, here you go. Have that." Jon: Well, that's exactly it. So, now let's talk about the data that a marketer's going to get back out of this pop-up, right. So, a new site pop-up, you just came to this, a new visitor pop-up I should say. I get a form. Sometimes it just says, "Give me your info and you can stay up to date on the latest product releases, et cetera." So maybe they're not really dangling a carrot there. Right? I can't figure out how to close it. Maybe there's no close button and it takes over the entire screen and it's really annoying. So what happens? You put in an email address that like na@na.com, right? So now the brand has pretty muddy CRM, right? Their customer data, their marketing data is pretty horrible. Now what's going to happen there is, they're going to start using all that data. Some will clean it, but I guarantee you most don't based on our experience and what happens is they're going to use those email addresses that are uncleaned. They're going to start sending them through their email platform. And then they're going to get a ton of bounces, a ton of spam complaints for those who might be okay, it might be good, or they're going to get a bunch of generic Gmails that never get opened. And I promise you one thing that's happening with your emails and large providers like Gmail, MSN, et cetera, is they're tracking when you send an email out to a thousand people, Gmail knows that at that same email is going out to a thousand people on their platform, and they're looking to see how many people are opening and clicking on that. And they're tracking that data to make sure that spam doesn't get through. And if nobody's opening it, nobody's clicking it, it's more likely to end up in that dreaded promotions folder or just directly into spam. [crosstalk 00:11:07]. And that's not even without people who are actually seeing that email and marking it as spam, which is only going to hurt your deliverability. So, over time what's happening is the quality of your email list is going way down only because of how you collected that as emails and the methodology you went through. And so, what happens then is you've turned what should be your highest revenue generating channel into something that is no longer producing at the level it used to, even though you have more email addresses on it. Ryan: Got it. Okay. That makes a lot of sense there. And you can kind of send yourself in a downward spiral. But I can also see the logic behind getting to that point. If logic states that me as a brand or a website, I'm willing to break even on my first order from Google ads when I'm buying traffic to my site, and then if I don't have an email up and I put it on, I'm like, "Oh, 10% discount. That's only going to increase people's conversion rates because I'm giving 10% off. But then these are people that maybe weren't going to buy, but now are because people that were going to buy, maybe they would anyway without the discount." So, I understand that logic to a degree, but how do you see that logic break down when somebody actually starts going through with that execution? Jon: Well, so now we're combining two negatives. We're taking an email pop-up that's disruptive and we're making it a discount. Now what's happening is same thing. As you said earlier, I just got to the brand, I don't know anything about the brand or their value proposition, et cetera, but now you want my contact information, and also you're already giving me a discount. Now, why are you offering a discount to somebody who just got to your site? They haven't exhibited any signs of intent to buy just yet, other than showing up at your door and you're giving up precious margin and you're creating a discount brand right away. Where it's the first thing I know about this brand is, they're going to give me a 10% off for giving me an email address. It's like, "Well, okay." And what's going to happen here is a couple of things. One is, you're creating a discount customer who sees your brand as a discount brand forever, just because that's the first impression they have. And the problem with this is you've done it just to collect an email address. Well guess what? What's going to happen now is that person's going to put in their junk email address again, the one they use just for discounts and pop-ups, right? Ryan: Everybody's got one of those. Jon: Exactly. We all use Gmail for that, probably. Right. So, then what happens from there? Well, perhaps they might open the email, maybe not, more likely not. They just wanted that discount code. And the worst offenders in these popups are the ones that, where they collect the email address without any verification, they don't email you the discount code. They just show it in the box in the pop-up. So, they just give it to you right away. Well, then that's even worse because you're putting in whatever email address you want and you're still going to get the discount. The other thing here is that, now every time I come back to buy, I'm going to want that discount. And I know I don't need to pay retail. I know that you're going to offer 10%. So, what am I going to do? I'm going to open your website in incognito, and I'm going to give you another fake email address just to get another discount code or another junk email address, or I'm going to do that Gmail trick, where you can put a plus sign and then anything you want after the plus sign. So, it's like Jon+, whatever I want @gmail.com and it ignores anything with the plus sign and after that. Ryan: That I did not know. Jon: So, you can create [crosstalk 00:14:31] a million email addresses just out of your one Gmail address. And most email platforms allow you to use a plus sign because it's a valid email character. And so, it's really interesting when we start working with brands, one of the first things we do when they put up a fight about removing their pop-ups, or at least running a test around it, is we go into their email database and check for the plus sign and see how many emails have a plus sign in it. And most of it it's like, plus spam is what people put, right? Or they'll even get more tricky. People who are really, want to know if you're selling their email address, or if you're giving it away or if you're abusing them and they do plus in the brand name. And then it's like if you sell that email address or share with a partner, do anything else, they now know where that came from, and they're even more upset with you when that happens. So, I think it's really important here that people, brands really need to think about not discounting because you're basically taking what is a bad consumer experience and you're making that a bad experience for your brand too. And you're just doing that to collect an email address. And now you've created a discount customer right up front, who's forever going to look at your brand as a discount brand. And that's a really hard hole to dig out of in the future. Ryan: Well, and I think a lot of brands don't give consumers enough credit, and I think people pick it up pretty quick, where they know the strategies to try to get discounts. Especially people like me that just because I can, I'm not going to give up 10% of my money to a brand just because I like them. If I can keep 10% in my pocket, I will, even if I can afford the full price, which generally is the case, if I'm shopping for it. And so, my wife knows that I'm the cheap one in the relationship. And if she's going to go buy something, she knows that if she can tell me she bought something, but got a discount, and I'm like, I'm much less likely to put up a fight about that. And so she knows the strategy. It's like, "Okay, all I need to do on my computer is start to move my cursor towards the navigation bar and boom, exit intent pop up." Or she even tells me now, she'll just, if she's interested in something, but it's not a need, it's a more of a want, she'll go put things in shopping carts, and then just wait a few days. She's like, "I don't need it right now. They're not going to run out of inventory. I'm going to go set up a shopping cart, I don't care. See if they sent me a discount." [crosstalk 00:17:29]. Almost all of them do. I mean, just people figure it out. It's not complicated. Marketers, I think sometimes think too much of themselves like, "Oh, we're going to do this. And we're going to trick all these people into spending so much money with us." And I'm like, "Nah." Jon: Well, I think that's exactly where having empathy for the consumer really comes in, right? And just saying, "If you, if this is happening to you, what's the experience you want to have?" And I think this goes back to a whole nother episode we can record on discounting and why that's a challenge. I mean, we just did, you and I just did a webinar yesterday and a big portion of that was about discounting with one of our partners. And I thought it was really interesting because so many brands are discounting. And when you think about this, you could be doing so many things that are and offer and not a straight percentage or dollar off discount. And I'm okay with doing an offer in an email. And there's a lot of other ways to collect email addresses that tie in with offers, right? I mean, you could do "Coming soon, get on the list to be first notified," and that's providing value for an email address that they wouldn't get unless they gave you the email address. But it's also valuable to them. You could do, something where it's like, "Hey, if you sign up for our email list in checkout, you get free shipping." Right? So, you're giving some value. It's not a straight dollar or percentage off discount. You're doing an offer and there's scarcity. You could say, "Hey, these products sell out. It's sold out right now. If you sign up for this list, you'll be notified." And we have a brand we work with, a really high end camping brand, that a lot of their products, they sell out before they've even landed in the United States for manufacturing, where they just have a running list on their product detail pages that say, "Hey, this product is sold out. We have a new product coming in soon, get on the list, we'll notify you. And it will be presale before it goes up on the site." Now there's a lot of value to a consumer who wants a product and is interested in that and giving their email address for that purpose. And it's a much better way to collect an email address over offering a discount. So, now they're selling these products before they've even hit the site. They're selling them at 100% margin or, well, not 100% margin, but without draining their margin by discount, right? Ryan: Or marketing. Jon: Or marketing costs. [crosstalk 00:19:54]. Yeah. What? Fractions of a penny to send that email. So, I think it's really interesting that brands immediately go to this discount right upfront and present that discount through such a disruptive manner that they have to use an email pop-up. Ryan: I think it's just, I mean, it's the easy button that they're thinking about. They're not taking that next step and actually having conversations with people, strategizing what could my options be? Because even me, having you as a friend and a business partner and various things, I come to you and I'm like, "Okay, Jon, I know you don't like discounts, but I know that there's value in somehow doing something like that, that maybe is not a discount, that keeps me from being a discount brand." And you've got phenomenal ideas for ... Now, we should probably do one, a thing on that. But you don't have to give a discount to give a discount type thing, which is a difficult thing. You have to really think through it. Jon: Right. Yeah. And you got to be creative with the offer, right? And sometimes people, like you said, it's the easy button. There's so many Shopify apps, for instance, that do these pop-ups and do discounts. Then there's apps that are really cheap to free that will do customized discount posts for email address exchange, stuff like that. It blows my mind because they see other brands using them and they think it must work for them, so we're going to do it too. Or they just, they think discounting is the only way. And I really argued that as soon as you get into discounting, it is impossible. It's like a drug, a really bad drug. It's really hard to get off of that. You got to wean yourself off of it because now everybody is expecting and they're not going to pay retail price. I mean, we talk about how your wife sends you to Michael's to pick up stuff on the way home. And you know that she's going to have a 50% off coupon, no matter what. And if she didn't, for whatever reason, she couldn't find one right then, or whatever, you just ask the person at the register when you're checking out, like, "Hey, what's that? What's the coupon that went out in the mail last week? Do you have it?" And they're like, "Oh yeah, it's right here. Here you go." And they just scan it [crosstalk 00:21:55]. Ryan: Yeah. That actually happened a couple weeks ago. [crosstalk 00:00:21:58]. I was, I got in line, she was like, "I couldn't find my code. Can you just pull one up on your phone and do a search?" I'm like, "Okay, yeah. I'll figure it out." Jon: Exactly. So, they're a discount brand and you go to them because they're a discount brand. There's nothing wrong with that if that's how they want to do it. But I would argue that, they're never getting out of that, right? They're just going to have to slash all their prices if they want to stop doing discounts. Then what promo or offer can you run because you've got razor thin margins at that point? Ryan: Yep. No. And I think one of the points you hit on too, is part of that other bucket of email popups, which you don't hate, those exit intent things. And this one works phenomenally well, for me at least, with one of the clients you've worked with in the past is Nike. One of the shoe companies you're based in Oregon. And I have an affinity for Jordan 4's. I'm not a sneaker head, but that's the one shoe that I grew up always wanting and I couldn't get them because didn't have enough money for them when I was a kid. But now I can. And so, I do keep up on the releases. And so, in this case, I gave Nike all my information to avoid the FOMO, the fear of missing out scenario. And I went to Nike site today just to see what they were doing, saying, "Okay, Jon worked with them. Did they get the message when he was working with them?" And they use only exit intent, no discount. Do you ever advocate for discount at... Well, I already know the answer. But exit intent, how should brands be looking at that? Is there anything besides FOMO or anything to do besides offering a discount that you've seen be successful? Jon: Well, I think that there's a lot of options that you can do in these pop-ups. But specifically in exit intent, this is where it's one of those things that you should really be looking at segmenting your audience and tailoring the message with those pop-ups. So, for you, let's think about the journey you just mentioned you went through. You were, you love Jordan 4's and you were looking at those on the site and they popped up with an exit intent and you were like, "Yeah, sure. I'll do that because I want to be the first to know when new ones are released." There's value there for you in that, right? And they knew, this is a collector shoe, if you will. And most of the people, you claim you're not a sneaker-head, but let's be honest, you probably are if you're into Jordan 4's, right? Ryan: Probably. Jon: And so, the reality here is they know that. That people who are looking at this shoe aren't discount motivated because for them it's all about having the Jordan 4, that they don't need the discount. They could sell those out, no problem without ever discounting them. And in fact, you and I living in Portland, Oregon, we're blessed that we get to go to the Nike employee store occasionally. And whether we're working with them or, somebody who does work with them is able to share a pass with us occasionally. And I can tell you that they have some Jordan's there, but it's not their top sellers. I say that because at the employee store, there's a large discount when you shop there because you get employee pricing, but they don't have their top sellers, usually, in the collectible ones, like Jordan's et cetera there, because they don't need to discount them. If you want them, you're going to just go up on the site and buy it at retail. So, I think that too many brands skip right away to the discount when there's other value adds you could provide. And that's where, again, you got to do a little bit of thinking on that. It can't just be the easy button. Ryan: Okay. So, pop-ups, avoid coming to the site pop-ups. Exit intent could be worth it, but you make sure you're adding some value to that, that customer that causes them to want to give you a real email address and not necessarily just throw a discount out. So, all companies want more emails. Do you have any strategies that you've seen be successful in your experience over the past decade in the e-comm world for brands to get more emails? Jon: Sure. I think there are some great ways to do, I mentioned earlier, some segmenting. So, let's say you run somebody in to your site from a Google ad that has a specific message, your value prop in it, aligning that with the message that you share for an email signup, right? So, maybe they're searching for a specific item and they get to your site and it's out of stock, well, there you go, now you should do not a stock email collection. I think that the biggest mistakes I see around email forms are that they're missing some key information. The first is you really need to set expectations on this email form. What does that mean? Well, you need to tell people what they're signing up for and how often they're going to hear from you. Pretty simple. But most brands say stuff like, "Sign up for updates." It's like, "Why do I care about updates from your brand?" Right? "I don't need more updates." Nobody needs updates. But if you me, I'll be the first to know when Jordan 4's are released, I'm in, right? That's what I'm here for. That's what I want to know. So, it's all about saying, "Okay. Well, how often are you going to hear from me?" Well, maybe it's, "I'll email you once a month." Okay. I'm okay with that. If you say, "I'm going to email you every week," I have to think twice about it, but if I really am into your brand, maybe I'm okay with that. Or maybe it's where we have special product bundles that are only for email subscribers, "Sign up and you can learn about our bundles, exclusives." Right? Things of that sort, that aren't straight up discounts. Ryan: Almost like a merging some of this email acquisition with your loyalty program. Jon: 100%. That is a great way to build email is through loyalty. It's through having, whether you want to do something as complicated as a point system, or just as simple as saying, if you're on an email address, you will get access to things that people who aren't on the email address. Ryan: And people are willing to give you more information, generally, when you're providing value outside of discount. For example, Nike, I give them my birthday. No other company gets my birthday. [crosstalk 00:27:51]. But they're telling me I'm going to get a special reward on my birthday. And I'm like, "Cool." I like Nike. They do have some trust. They built a brand that says, "I can trust them with my data already," just because I have an affinity for them and I've been wearing Nike's for, geez, 30 years. So, there is some of that that maybe not every brand is going to be able to get to, but you can probably do some pretty solid segmentation in your customer database if you had everybody's birthday. Like, Hey, this person's 20, this person's 40, they probably need different messaging. They probably have different interests, different disposable income level. Jon: Yeah. Yeah. The 20 year old is aspiring to get the Jordan's. The Ryan Garrow age folks are really out there to [crosstalk 00:28:35]. Ryan: 22. 22. Jon: Okay. Okay. If you say so. And so I think it's, now you can afford the $300 pair of Jordan's and you're excited to buy them because you've earned that right over all these years of hard work, right? And so, or those two years of hard work, if you will. But I think it's one of those things where most brands aren't even segmenting. They're just doing that really clear scatter shot, hoping to collect email addresses, just to build their list. And I just, again, that's the wrong philosophy, whole-heartedly, full stop. Popups are not the way to do that. And I just, it pains me when I see brands do that. Part of me is because our mission at The Good is, I say all the time is just to remove all the bad online experiences until only the good ones remain. And email popups are such a bad online experience. I'm on a crusade to eliminate those. And part of that is to help brands understand what damage they're doing with these initial email pop-ups. And it's true, I don't hate them just because they get in my way as a consumer, I hate them because of what they do to the brand over time. And the experience that you're putting consumers through is really negatively affecting the brand and the brand perception. And then most brands are applying a discount on top of that, so they're kind of adding fuel to that fire of just negativity and it's really just going to hurt them. Ryan: And the one thing I'll leave with would be the best emails you can get are from people that have purchased from you. So, if you just got more aggressive on getting more customers through marketing or driving people to the site, those people in your email database are going to be infinitely more valuable than anybody that just wants a coupon code or signs up just to have you go away or an email pop-up. So, I would challenge a lot of brands just to say, if you're comfortable giving an additional 10% discount, so you're taking 10% off your top line for somebody, why don't you just get 10% more aggressive on your marketing and get that customer to actually buy something and get more of them and increase your market share because that's the type of emails in my database that I'm going to be in love with. Jon: Yeah. I mean, you mentioned right up off the top that you're happy to spend your initial margin on that first purchase to acquire the customer through Google ads or whatever advertising you would do to get them to the site, so that you can continue to market to them and go after that customer lifetime value. And that's the right way to approach this because that's sustainable. Where if you're just going to give a discount and someone's only going to purchase once, because they can't get that discount again, or maybe they just see you as a discount brand, then you're going to have a bigger issue. So, I'm all for paying to get people to purchase, but I'm not, I don't think you should do that through a discount upfront. Ryan: Yeah. Don't go the lazy way. If your marketing team or your agency is telling you, "Use discounts or we can't do our job." It's time to maybe look outside that. Jon: Yeah. Find a new marketing agency. People come to us all the time and they say, "Well, we've been doing optimization on our site." And I say, "Okay, great. Let's talk about what you've been doing." "Well, we put a pop-up on, we offer discounts and our conversion rates went up." I was like, "Well, yeah. You know what? Every house will sell at some price. Ask any realtor. And they'll just say, 'Well, we'll just keep reducing the price until it sells.'" And it's like, well, eventually you're going to sell it for less than you bought it for. And that's exactly what's going to happen with your brand too. Ryan: Oh, and didn't you, you have some stat around, you give a small discount, your conversion rate has to go up just some astronomical percent. What was that number? Jon: Yeah. Mackenzie did a bunch of research on this. They surveyed and did a bunch of research on the, it was like the top 1000 e-comm sites. And what they found was that for every 5% that you run a discount on, you have to acquire, it was like 19% in additional sales just to break even on that discount. Ryan: And most people are not only giving 5%. Jon: Right. It's way more than that [crosstalk 00:32:36]. Ryan: It's usually 10, 15, 20%. Jon: And so, you really have to think about this. Now for 5% discount, is that 5% discount going to get me greater than a 19% additional sales? Likely, that's not the case. And, in fact, the article that I read on that said, and I'll have to quote it, but it said "This rarely to never has ever happened." And I was like, "Okay. So, they said rarely, never, and ever in the same sentence." Ryan: Yeah. Having done this a decade, I can almost guarantee you that that has not happened. I mean, because you would just double that maybe for 10%, you have to get 38% increase in revenue for a 10% discount. There's no way. Jon: If, I mean, if that's how the math works out on that, then yeah, you're screwed if you start discounting at that rate in reality. Because yes, you've collected email addresses and markers will come back to me and say, "Jon, yeah, sure. That's if I only do it on that first sale, but now I'm going to have those customer in my database for a lifetime." And I'm like, "Yeah, but what are you going to have to do to get them continue to buy? You're going to have to give another 5% off and another 5% and another 5%. where do you get out of digging that hole? Right? How do you fill that hole so that you're getting your margin back and your customer lifetime value and your average order value keeps going up? How do you make that happen?" You're better off it doing an offer. And, yep, it may equate to 5% off, but in the mind of the consumer, you're giving them an offer, not a straight dollar or percentage off. And then you come back the next order and you're not having to fight on a discount, you can give them some other offer, perhaps if that's needed. So yeah, we should definitely do a whole show, Ryan, on discounting. I think that could be another way to share one of Jon's things he hates on the internet. Ryan: Yes. I think we for sure should do that. Man, there's so many, so many good things in this. Jon, thanks for the time. I appreciate it. And I come away learning lots of things, including just adding a plus sign to my emails now. [crosstalk 00:34:30]. I can track where I'm being sold. Jon: There you go. Well, I appreciate you bringing the topic up and helping me share one of my missions. So, thanks for doing that. Ryan: Thank you

Can podcasting help you generate leads and close deals? Most experts say "no" when asked this question. Jay Wong says "yes." This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Podcast Your Brand founder Jay Wong shares the strategies he uses to help his clients hit the Top 100 when they launch new podcasts and then create podcast content that actually generates ROI for their businesses. Jay is a successful podcaster himself, and he's parlayed his experience into a successful consultancy that advises brands both big (think Proctor and Gamble) and small on how to get results with podcasting. In this episode, he shares advice that any podcaster can use to make sure the launch of a new podcast is successful, and tips on creating podcast content that will push your customers further along their buying journey. Check out the full episode, or read the transcript below, for details. Resources from this episode: Visit the Podcast Your Brand website Learn more about Jay's "done for you" Top 100 podcasting service Follow Jay on Instagram Check out the podcasts of some of Jay's clients: P&G Alumni Stackadapt Young Leaders Across America Transcript Kathleen (00:01): Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I am your host, Kathleen Booth. And this week, my guest is Jay Wong. Who is the CEO of podcast your brand. Welcome to the podcast, Jay, Jay (00:29): Super excited to be here with you, Kathleen and excited to dive into a bit of podcasts. Kathleen (00:34): Yeah. before we get too deep in, maybe you could start by sharing your story and who you are, what you do, how you came to do it. Jay (00:46): Sure. For sure. So I think like a lot of people that love the medium of podcasting, you know, started with, you know, high hopes of, Hey, let's go out, build an audience and be able to serve that audience. Right. And so I figured out how to launch my own podcast about five, six years ago now podcasting was very different in, in 2015 than it is at the time of recording this. And I figured out how to get my own show into the top 100 back then, there was this, you know, we're not just talking about like new and noteworthy, if some of your listeners and business owners know what, what I'm referring to, but actual top 100 in the iTunes section. And that actually got me my first, like 50 to a hundred email subscribers, right? Like this is how different podcasting was, you know, back back then. Jay (01:40): And from there other individuals always, you know, reached out other business owners, other entrepreneurs that said, Hey, I saw what you did with the podcast. Could you do it with our brand? Right. And so thus started, you know, a little bit of consulting. We built an online program. We did two day intensives. We spoke at all the biggest, you know, podcast conferences. And, you know, one day when we were running a two day intensive one of my favorite kind of offers and services that especially when events was like a thing that people were, you know, when people could attend and, and, and actually that's in the past tense, unfortunate, hopefully it comes back because it's still one of my favorite, like, you know, models. And, and I just absolutely love it. But we, I remember we had, we had a lady at one of our events. Jay (02:27): She came up to me, she said, Jay, I love what you stand for around podcasting. I love, you know, your way of thinking about it in terms of just making it a real marketing channel for our business. She was in real estate at that time you know, super successful on, in her own. Right. And she said, look, I'm just never going to do any of this. And I that's, that's just the truth. Right. but I would be open to writing you and your team, a bigger check, if you could figure out how I could just show up how I could just show up record. Right. And we can implement all those awesome things that you just showed us in the last couple of days. And I'd be very open to do it with you for the next year. Right. And so that, wasn't the first time that I heard a abbreviated offer like that for our agency, our done for you. Jay (03:15): And to end, you know, service it wasn't something that I woke up that day and thought, you know what, today's the day we're going to do an agency. But we worked with a couple other clients. We worked with her, we figured out what actually works in our process. And now we've gotten the opportunity in the last two and a half years to be really behind the scenes of hundreds of top 100 launches. And not only did we get the shows and the brands into the top 100, we could talk more about that, but really we build them a customized ROI plan, right? So for some of the companies we're working with, they're looking to drive new members. They're looking at this as a retention strategy. They're looking at this as, as a new way of promoting their products and services. And those last two and a half years have been such an amazing adventure. And I say two and a half years because, you know, we all know so much can just happen in such a short period of time, but more or less, that's ultimately how we got all the way to the agency podcasts, your brand that you see and hear about today. Kathleen (04:15): That's awesome. And it's so interesting to me to hear you talk about that journey because I had my first podcast right around 2015, the same time you did. And I mean, I did a terrible job at it because I just literally knew I wanted to podcast and I kind of jumped in without a really good plan. And I mean, it was a great learning experience, but, but it, it sort of taught me all the things not to do. You know, and then I, and then I ended that podcast and started this one, which has been a completely different experience. And as I've, I mean, I'm now like three years in, and as I've progressed with this podcast, I've seen podcasting really kind of take off and other people get more interested and, and then covert hit. And it was like, I thought podcasting was hot. And then it was just not to be goofy, but like, I mean, everybody, like I'm in a couple of online groups with heads of marketing from a lot of different companies and all of a sudden it was like every single person was talking about podcasting, which I just thought was so interesting because it's been around forever. Like it's been around a long, long time Jay (05:22): Hundred percent, hundred percent. Kathleen (05:24): Yeah. And it's just taken off in recent months Jay (05:27): For sure. I, I, we, during the months of April and may, we had so many companies reach back out to us and said, Hey, remember that idea that you pitched us six months ago or a quarter a year ago. Right. We're going to do it now. And, you know, because we believe this would be an amazing time to be able to kind of capture some of that awareness and be able to add our 2 cents on the craziness and madness of the world, you know? And right around that time, we were the the, the show for Proctor and Gamble for their alumni network. And you know, man, we learned so much in, in those compress two, three months, I think we did like 10 launches. And within like a week apart of each other, it was just a crazy, crazy, you know, quarter. But you're absolutely right. More and more people I think, but even three years ago it was, it went from this like new media, you know, maybe it's the future of voice, right. Like it was right around there. Should it be a nice to have versus now I think a lot of companies are looking at it and saying, okay, we need to be the voice for whatever the industry, whatever the niche that we stand for and that, you know, this might be one of the ways that we can be able to do that. Yeah. Kathleen (06:43): It's, it's fascinating. Now you mentioned Proctor and Gamble. You've done work with all kinds of different brands when it comes to podcasting. Can you name a few others? Jay (06:58): Yeah. So you know, we worked with another company called StackAdapt. They built their own native advertising, programmatic ads platform. I'm pretty sure they're the largest one specifically in Canada outside of Google. But certainly they've won tons of awards in the U S as well as in Canada. We've worked with, you know, if people are familiar with like student works or college works or college pro pretty much every company in North America that has that model, we've partnered with them to be able to grow their retention and grow their communities. A lot of, you know, influencers, bestselling authors not just Amazon best selling authors, but real you know, credible, amazing individuals that, you know, have digital presences and digital backends as well. We tend to do really well for those guys as well. Kathleen (07:57): And you help companies through all aspects of the podcasting life cycle. You know, when you and I first connected, I, I, and we talked and we were talking about kind of what you do with podcasters. I think my initial response was, you know, we've talked a lot about podcasting on this podcast. It's, it's sort of funny, it's, it's a hot topic as one might expect. And I'm always looking for, what's a different way we can talk about it. And one of the reasons I was really excited to chat with you is that a couple of the things that you brought up really are things that we haven't covered yet. You know, number one, being how to really come out of the gate strong. So when you launch your podcast, I think the Holy grail is getting in the top lists the top 100 or the top of this. So I want to start with that because we've covered in the past, like how to strategize what your podcast should be about and how to record and all of that. But let's talk about how to launch really successfully. Yeah. So Jay (08:56): Really quick even added caveat for your listeners, is that what we're about to talk about right here? Even if you have a podcast this is still applicable, right? It's it's and, and yeah. So I think that's, that's, I get asked that question all the time. Hey, Jay, we've been podcasts in the last couple years, these are our stats. This is where we're at, right. Is it too late for us to hit the top 100, hit the top 200? You know, I would say this before we dive in as well, which is internally. And I think we talked about this internally. We refer to hitting the top 100 as the end of phase one, right? Because it is not the end all be all you're you're, it's not like the whole, it's not like there's a pre top 100, you know, life is pretty top 100 and life post, top 100. Jay (09:43): But I do find that if we're going to spend all this time and all this energy and all of other people's energy to hop on the podcast, I think if you want to be able to launch very strongly, then it's going to be one of your better opportunities to get out of the gate. Right. And to be able to position the podcast and position to host, even create the right platform for future guests. Right. And just make your own guests feel amazing to be able to be featured on any platform. Right. I think these are just some of the things that you might be thinking about. When we're looking at a launch specifically, the iTunes algorithm works on a couple components, but really the main one is being able to increase your subscribers of that podcast, right? Anything that you could do to be able to do that, whether you're running a, you know, a contest, rather you're writing paid ads, there's so many different ways of going about it. Jay (10:44): But a lot of times for our own clients, we build them based on their email list, based on the assets that they have are ready. We build them essentially a plan to be able to capitalize on their current assets, to be able to drive those subscriptions so that they can get out of the gate really, really strong and really form a community around their podcasts, because that's really prepping us to go into phase two as well. You know, talking about the ROI and new traffic. It just positions us to be able to win the whole game that much better. Does that make sense? Kathleen (11:14): Yes. And I have a bunch of questions. So I've done a lot of reading about launching new podcasts and I've read different things. And I'm curious to get your take. The first question is I have read a number of articles that say that when you launch, you should launch with more than one episode. So it's not like, Hey, we've launched here's episode one. It's like, Hey, we've launched here's episodes, you know, one through five or one through eight. Sure, sure. But I've also read the opposite. So I'd love to get your opinion on that. Jay (11:48): Yeah. You know, it's I, I've been seeing this trend more and more right. Where they'll essentially, and these are like really well known athletes or well known celebrities that are doing this as well. Keep in mind any strategy that you see any type of popular influencer or popular celebrity doing chances are that you cannot actually replicate what they're doing because of that celebrity factor. And they probably are bringing, you know, millions and hundreds of thousands of followers. Right. We've worked with people where you know, they'll have 2 million and Instagram following, right. Their numbers and their downloads. It's not going to be comparable right. To somebody that might not have that social capital. And, and, and, you know, you're not bringing that into the launch with that all, you know, so I've seen this trend where they'll release like a trailer. Right. Jay (12:39): And it's like, it's coming soon, you know? And it's like a, maybe like a three to five kind of like a movie trailer I imagine. Right. And then maybe a couple of weeks after then they'll start releasing on like a weekly schedule. What have you I think of the launch like this, as in Kathleen, let's go try out a, this new restaurant down the street. We've heard amazing things about it. Our friends are friends with the owner. Right. And when we go in there, can we, you know, since we're trying out the place, let's order a couple appetizers, let's get a couple drinks, let's go through the whole experience of it a little bit. Right. And so I'm a very big believer that you definitely don't. I think you don't want to just release a trailer. You don't want to just leave them with one episode. Jay (13:25): You know, if you look at the statistics of podcasts is right and, you know, for any of your listeners are marketers and business owners, you get, you guys could, could look this up as well, but I'm pretty sure when they released stats earlier this year, people spend on average, you know, six plus hours listening to podcasts is right. And I think they also spend on average listening to five to six different shows. So think about this, you're introducing them to a new show yet. There's only one episode there. Right. So we'd like to mix it up in that first batch, anywhere from three to five episodes. I think when you go beyond five, it gets a little, almost like too much. Even at five, I would feel like, Ugh, I don't know which one is going to be the best suited for me. Right. Three, four definitely would work. Right. Just in terms of just, Hey, here's a bit of a solo, here's a, maybe a longer form interview. Here's a, you know, some, you know, our, our welcome type of, you know, episode, right. So it just gives them kind of a full experience of what is to come. Right. Kathleen (14:26): That makes sense to me. And it also intuitively makes sense because I, I feel like in the last couple of years, we've really become trained as human beings to expect, to be able to binge content, you know, the whole Netflix model of releasing the whole season at one time. And there's this level of frustration that arises when all of a sudden you're, you don't have availability, especially if it's something you really like, you know? And so I can see where that would make sense, because if I, if I'm come in and I get a taste of episode one, and I'm like, this is really good. I'm going to want, I just did this. I just did this. I'll also give an example. And I don't know how many episodes they released at once, but I discovered the, the podcast, nice white parents, which is by Serial and the New York times. Kathleen (15:18): I just discovered it this past weekend. And I listened to, I think it was eight episodes or 10, one of the two, the whole, the whole podcast is it's. Cause it's not a, a podcast that goes on forever. And I literally listened to all 10 episodes in like a day or so, because it was good. I got hooked and I wanted more. And I think it's very easy to lose that momentum if somebody listens to one and they like it, and then they don't have that habit developed yet. Because to me it's all about building a habit. And if you haven't formed a habit yet, and then you are not able to satisfy that craving with another episode, I think it, it, it jeopardizes the longevity of your listener. Jay (16:01): It's so good. What you're saying right now, because one of the things that we have to remind our clients, right. And just keep this in mind, but like, are I, I'm all for like, and podcast, this is, what's so beautiful about podcasting nowadays, is that there, you know, now Hollywood studios, right. Are, are shifting gears and they're deploying resources to be able to create some amazing audio programs. Right. Just think of your favorite type of true crime show. They're doing some really interesting things with like the history, you know channel and, and that, and that type of genre. But the shows that we specifically work on are a lot of times, you know, businesses, CEOs, and there's a whole brand behind it. They chances are they have different products and services. Right. And so when you're introducing a podcast, we're not just training are the hosts or the CEO, or whoever's running the, or whoever's the voice of the program to be able to create and get into the flow of creating the episodes. Right. You're also training the audience to receive the, the, the, the episodes from you to actually see that every single week or twice a week or whatever the cadence is right. To say, Oh yeah, that, that is what that's, what's, what's going on. So to your point, forming that habit right away, it's very, very important right. Out of the gate. Kathleen (17:22): Yeah. Now, so, so if somebody starting out, you would have them do a couple of episodes for the launch. Talk me through the rest of your process for making sure that launch is strong. What are you doing to, to drive people to those first episodes? Jay (17:39): Yeah. So, you know, it's, it's funny. Cause we, we had to make this distinction for even art, the business owners that we work with because we realized that some of them had, you know, this is one of the first launches that, that they were doing. Right. And so they would be after the first week, they would be, you know, pretty, you know, energy like exhausted, right. Because they, you know, they've just gotten a flood of emails and DMS and messages and questions and they're all social channels are being blown up. Right. But we always flick at the launch as this nice little two to three week period where once again, we're training the listeners to actually be able to tune in, we're publishing a little more on the front end before we go into a weekly cadence or a biweekly cadence, whatever it ends up working out for said business, but you're really forming, I think the beginning of the community around your show. Jay (18:36): Right? So a lot of our clients they'll have some sort of a community aspect of this, right? Some of them, even the Proctor and Gamble one that we mentioned their main, their whole thing was, Hey, let's drive new members in our alumni network. So there's, this is more of like a, a paid, you know, network, you know, you gotta be a part of it. Right. But there are, you got, gotta keep this in mind, we call this the triangle effect within podcasts, your brand, which are three things that you want to really cycle your audience through. Right. The number one is the podcast or your main content channel, number two, basic for marketers and business owners out there. But it's going to be an email list. Right. So just even getting that cadence down, because so many times how guilty are we as business owners that we know that every time we email the list or we do it right. Jay (19:27): You know, that that list is an amazing asset for our business. But so many of our clients, they, you know, maybe they, they, they, they don't know what to say. They, you know, they don't have the podcast right away. So once again, it goes back into training and that third piece is that community piece. Right. So whichever section that you're in, right. And this is something that we train there, the, our clients' teams on, if you're on the email list, you're promoting to the other two, right. If you're on the community, you're promoting to the other two. So if you're, Hey, have you heard the last podcast episode, Hey, go over here, sign up for our webinar coming up. Right. If you're on the email list right there, they're already signed up or what have you, Hey, you know, have you heard the latest episode? Jay (20:08): How have you joined our discussion in our community? Right. So it's, it's th does that make sense? So you're kind of, it seems like you're everywhere, but really there's just three places. Right? And if you think about that breakdown from a consumer perspective, right? You've got their phone covered, you got the social media covered, you got their inbox covered. And the podcast really covers all those other moments that they might've been alone, you know, and they might've been alone cleaning the house. They might've been alone gardening. They might've been, you know, alone just wanting to be able to geek out on a certain topic, you know, and they might be listening to, to a show about inbound marketing, right. So it's all those little moments that our hosts and our, our, the people we work with, they get a chance to connect with their perfect customer. Kathleen (20:52): So true story. I listen to podcasts when I vacuum, when I grocery shop and when I exercise. So the examples you gave are totally spot on. So my question about that though, is, does that mean you have to have already a large email list in order to do this well, like, you know, what, if somebody comes to you and they don't have a big list. Yeah. Jay (21:17): So I think this is a really good question because not everybody has 2 million Instagram followers and not everybody has this massive email list, even though they might've been told that, you know, for months and years. Right. look, I think you have to understand that you're starting from where you're starting at, you know, and we got to leverage, you know, if you have none of these assets, there is no community, there is no email lists. Well, we're going to, in that process, we're going to help you start building some of these assets. Right. And it's going to go more into our, you know, our phase two, which is focused around new traffic ROI. Right. But you know, those are ultimately, you have to really have those, if you want to be able to maximize, we believe the podcasting channel and that whole experience around it. Jay (22:04): Right. If you have an email list and you haven't been utilizing it, heck we've had clients where they come with a massive email list, but it's not really the right email lists for where they're going. Right. And so I think you have to understand that you're starting from where you're starting at. You don't have to have all three before starting, but certainly within all of our clients, we get them the amazing top 100 podcasts. And typically we have an email list, even if it's just, you know, a 50 or a hundred people that we're starting out with. And, and we kind of start from there. Kathleen (22:36): Got it. And you kind of gave me the segue into the second thing. I was really excited to talk to you about, which is that there's a lot of debate out there within the world of marketing and podcasting about like why, what you should expect to get out of hosting a podcast or producing and putting one on. And I hear most people say, don't expect it to be a lead generator for your business. Don't expect to get deals from it. And I think in many cases, that's true, but I was really intrigued that when you reached out to me, you talked about having had some clients that have landed really big deals from it. And it's, there's no straight line equation. I mean, podcasts, all podcasts are different, et cetera, et cetera. But I wanted to kind of pick your brain on this, this notion of how a podcast becomes a part of the marketing mix to help you grow your business. Jay (23:35): I love this question and I love this topic. And I think personally, the last few years has created, and I don't want to use this like lightly, but really it's created a whole industry where people are creating content because they feel like the idea of creating content is moving their brand and business forward. And it's not to say that sometimes, you know, you have to track every single piece of content. You can't create content just for fun anymore. You know, all marketers are ruining this. It's not to say that. But from a business owner standpoint, there are a lot of things that come up, whether it's Q and a, whether it is your objections. Okay. And maybe it's actually be easier if I share a little bit of a case study, think, go for it. Yeah. Like maybe I can do that because we worked with a client and, you know, we figured it out for her that her perfect client works with them. Jay (24:37): Usually for about two to three years, she, you know, on a basic simplicity level, she helps people right around that half a million, you know, revenue part to be able to go into multi-millions. Right. It's not just a sales game, but it's actually like infrastructure operations, understanding finances team. Right? Like there's, and that's why it usually takes that two to three year period. Right. For her, we figured out that there was about four different stages that, and I'm not talking about like, just like four stages of like your IP, like your, for profit activators. You know what I mean? And I'm not necessarily referencing that, but four stages that she sees her clients kind of graduate from, right. Maybe stage one they're working to in the business. They're, you know, they can't see any growth. Right. They have a big vision, but not really anybody to support them. Jay (25:32): Right. Like that, that would be stage one, stage four would be, they could sell their business, but they would never actually, you know, want to, you know, because they're actually so happy there, you know, 90% removed from any type of fulfillment, they just get to be their visionary. Right. so I'm just using this as a bit of example. Well, we created one of these episodes call, you know, the, the, the four stages of business growth. We obviously tailored it to her brand. Right. And till today, like we created this like late 2018, still to the day, I'll get messages from her team and her cause we've become good friends by now say like, show those, showcase people, applying for calls with them, right. Applying to chat with their sales team or with her. And they'll reference that, Hey, you know, I heard this, this episode, right. Jay (26:21): And I I'm, I'm a stage one entrepreneur, or I'm stuck in stage two. I've been stuck in stage two for the last two years. Right. And I would love to work with you because I, one day I would love to be in that stage four that you talked about. Right. And, you know, we're talking relatively higher ticket, you know, certainly, you know, done for you type of type of service. And so for her, she's made a massive ROI from that. Right. And you know, once again, I think we have to tailor it for every single business. Right. But I would invite your listeners to think about this. What are all the biggest questions, most common questions you get asked, what are the biggest objections that come up over and over again? How can we start tailoring and creating content that really looks to address some of these things, because what we're really doing is you're optimizing for the future sales conversations, right. We all have experienced what it's like to sell to somebody or somebody on your sales team has certainly experienced this, where they made an offer too early, right. Where they pitched someone that was not really receptive or certainly would never even, you know, when it's not even at that stage where they could even think about it. Right. So we've all had that negative experience. Jay (27:40): We've also all have hopped on calls where it wasn't really even an enrollment call or a sales call. Right. It was like, the person already knew what our values were. They knew what exactly what it is that we did. They knew what the result was. They knew what the outcome was. They were just checking logistics when, when can we start? Okay, cool. Right. It's more of a friendly conversation than anything. So that's really what we're trying to emulate. Right. And we do this with every single client because their strategy is going to be different. You know, some of those companies, I referenced earlier, student works as an example for them, it's not about generating the lead on the front end. It's about how they could get their entire company listening to the podcast so that they renew for year two, that they were new for them. Right. And so that changes exactly what we're going to talk about. That changes what content we're going to talk about. Right. For them, it's about how can we embed that customer journey and weave it constantly in to, to the content that they're creating that one day, if they're a part of the company, if they're lucky to be a part of the company in the next three, four years, they might have a chance to be able to see these types of results. Does that make sense from a Kathleen (28:50): Yeah. So wait, I'm fascinated by this second example you gave of basically like preventing churn via podcasts. So how, how do you create content that gets everybody in the company listening or like maximizes the number of people? Jay (29:02): I think, I think the, I think a lot of times people get really especially in this industry, right. In the marketing industry, everything is all about like numbers. Right. Which is totally understandable. So it's like, how many times are we posting? What are the downloads? It's, it's these types of questions versus for our clients. We're trying to get the most out of all the content pieces, right. If we're comparing, create one intentional piece of content, we're, it's kind of like we're planting that content on an external channel. Right. But internally, and all of those indoctrination email sequences were pointing to very specific episodes. It's never just, Hey, let's listen to listen to our podcasts. You know, it's listened to this episode on our podcast, right. Hey Kathleen, Hey, check out our top 100 podcasts. Jay (29:55): That's good. Right. It's good. It's it's nice. But Kathleen, I saw that you were doing this project around inbound marketing. We just created this episode around inbound marketing, but I think you would find relevant. Right. So when we think about the types of content, our clients are creating it's how, where is it that they want their customer to go? Where is it that your listeners want their customers to go? And how can you talk about the vision of it? Not necessarily the straight up tactics of today, there's episodes for that. Right. But where is it that you could go? Right. And that's really how we're kind of essentially having these mini sales conversations every single time. And people still find amazing value from it because ultimately they see it as a reminder right. Of them going to where they, that, that ultimate destination, you know? Jay (30:52): And I can't take full credit for this. There was a there I had a conversation with Dean Jackson. So shout out to the Dean who has a number of podcasts is one with Joe Polish. Another one where he does like live coaching in it. So, you know, he asked me one time, what I thought the true purpose of a podcast was. And, you know, I don't remember exactly what I said, but we came to the conclusion that the true purpose of a podcast is really to have an ongoing conversation. Right. It's kinda like if, you know, we all have people in our lives that are like the fitness fanatic people, you know, that every single time we see them, it feels like we should update them on like our high performance habits or, Hey, we're trying a new diet or, Hey, we, you know, I just started working out again. Jay (31:39): Right. That's an ongoing conversation with that person versus let's say they might be chatting with you. And it's a little more about business marketing, right? That's that ongoing conversation. So if you run a podcast, if you have any content marketing, what's that ongoing conversation for you, what's that ongoing conversation that you can remind your customers of that they're on this journey with you preferably for a very long period. And that way you're increasing that LTV, you're being able to increase retention over time. And that's really what we start training our clients to start thinking about and leveraging the medium in this way. Kathleen (32:13): I love that concept of kind of understanding your buyer's journey or that your customer's journey and, and tapping into that to create podcast content that resonates at different stages. But I think there's a fine line there of, you could easily veer into something that's very self promotional or very product centric. So how do you advise your clients about keeping the podcast content educational, you know, and not, eh, but like still relevant to what you do and to that customer journey? Jay (32:46): Yeah. So it's, it's a great point because I think when you tell people, Hey, go, you know, here's like, here's no rules go sell, right. It ends up becoming this like long, crazy, you know, sales pitch it's, you know, great content has that educational piece as well as, as entertaining pieces. Right. And so, you know, we it's w this is a lot of coaching really, when we comes down to the content critiques of our, of our clients is how can we just get them out of like, you know, that, that expert teaching mode, right? How can we get them sharing a little bit authentically about who they are, right. Because don't forget what you said earlier. And at the beginning of the show, podcasting has been around for a very long time before it was called podcasting before this top 100 stuff, before all the ROI conversations, it used to be two or three people that liked talking with each other geeking about geeking out about a certain topic. Jay (33:45): And it didn't matter how many people are listening. Right. They just throw it the recording online, raw recording, right. Maybe a little bit of music here and there. And it would be called internet radio. Right. That's like the true essence of, of podcasting. I think that's why a lot of people love it. It's because it's this unfiltered raw version. It feels like we're listening to a conversation that we are privy to. And we get a chance to, you know, seat in the back and not really have anything to say about it. And we get to listen to some of these amazing conversations. So how can we balance what it is that we want to be able to, you know, sell and, and that, that vision, and, you know, the customer journey, but also still have those human components. Right? So a lot of it comes down to storytelling, right? Jay (34:35): A lot of it just like good marketing, you know, we have these things called the five connectors, right. And these are connectors. They don't all start with C. Right. But they're story connectors, you know, they're, they're, they're little nuanced things that you could do to be a better storyteller in the moment, right. In the podcast scenario. And that's ultimately how we try to find that balance. Because each time we have a client, they're not just becoming the voice for network marketing. They're not just becoming the boys for alternative medicine or conscious families or whatever the topic is that they stand for. We're also helping them find their voice. And it doesn't mean that they don't know how to speak. And a lot of them are very good speakers. A lot of them are great content creators, but what's that, what's that cadence, what's that flow. That's going to work for the, or right. And that requires a little more artistry and a little more repetition for all of our hosts. But that's ultimately what we try to do is balance that because you don't want it be too scripted. And, you know, this is where you insert the call to action and to, you know, overly produced. But at the same time, you don't have it to be this like loosey goosey type of, you know, whatever you feel like podcast experience. Kathleen (35:50): Yeah. It's so funny that you bring this up because I just had this conversation with somebody who's thinking of starting a podcast. And he said to me, I'm not a good interviewer. And I was like, well, one way to get better is to just start doing it. And you know, like the more you have to hear yourself, I'll never forget when I first started podcasting listening to my own episodes. And I said the word. Yeah. And I still do it. Like when I start my sentences, you know, after a guest speaks, I'll say, yeah. And yeah. And this, and yeah. But what about that? And you become really aware of like, not only your own verbal ticks, but you know, your strengths and weaknesses and how you, how you are as an interviewer, as a conversationalist. And I think, I mean, at this point I'm like almost 170 episodes in, I don't, I don't have to do a lot of prep because like, I, I am so comfortable. Kathleen (36:39): It's like second hand to me. But when you start in the beginning, you definitely, I agree with you that you don't want to be overly scripted, but you want to have like a loose framework within which to play that you can fall back on if you get stuck, if you're not sure what to ask, there's that degree of comfort there that, Oh, okay. I have these five open ended questions that I know I can ask, and it will just set my guest off on, you know, riffing on a topic that they love. But that's something that I think I discovered on my own, cause I wasn't working with anyone, but I could see where it'd be valuable, valuable to have a company like yours. Kind of guiding me in that process and shortening the learning curve in the beginning. Jay (37:23): Yeah. Well, I mean, we all know frameworks and this is something we have to tell everybody, right. Which is like, look, we can talk about frameworks. We could probably have an entire different podcast episode on just frameworks, solo episode frameworks, interview frameworks, right. And, and, and, you know, storytelling frameworks and from a high level, you know, but at the end of the day, there's nothing that beats that natural curiosity, that natural energy or flow that that host has. And as you probably have experienced, and it probably can attest to, it takes a little bit, it takes just a little bit of time to be able to find that, that, that comfort level. Right. But if business owners or marketers out there that do a lot of content marketing right there, chances are, they're going to love you no longer form conversations even solo episodes. And I think it translates those skills, communication skills translate quite well when it comes to podcasts. Kathleen (38:20): Yeah. Totally agree. Well, we are coming up on our time. So a couple of things as we wrap up the conversation the first is, can you give me just some quick examples of clients you've worked with, who've seen amazing from this, whether it's a great launch or great ROI, you've peppered a few in the conversation, any others that you want to mention? Jay (38:43): Yeah. So we worked with a, a different SaaS company. They have multiple verticals that they're going after. We created pretty much think of it like a mini series per vertical, right. So much so that each salesperson responsible for whichever vertical or whoever you're chatting with, they would essentially have once again, these audio assets that they could go back to the client or a prospective client with, or go back to the prospect with and say, Hey, we actually created, if you're in the real estate niche, we created this mini series on how to be able to leverage what we do in the real estate world. Right. So context right away, they were able to get a client on the, like the second day of their launch, because we had launched with three, four different episodes. They had segmented their lists and said, Hey, if you're in this niche, listen to this one. Jay (39:31): Right. Don't just support the launch. But listen to this episode that just created some great conversation starters there. Right. and, and they were able to see an ROI right off the bat. Other of our clients have went on, built the community, built up a bit of audience. They didn't have that email list coming in. And then maybe six months down the line, they opened up a coaching program. Even if it was like a beta version of side coaching program, they opened up their mastermind that they've been wanting to do. Right. So you can kind of pick and choose which product and service you want to be able to go. But yeah, so those are some off the top of my mind. Love it. Kathleen (40:08): All right. Totally changing gears now. So I have two questions I ask all of my guests at the end of the podcast, and now it's your turn. Okay. the first one is this podcast is all about inbound marketing. And I'm curious, is there a particular company or individual that you think is really knocking it out of the park when it comes to great inbound marketing these days? Jay (40:31): So it's so funny because like you told me that you're going to ask me this. So the first company that comes to mind is HubSpot for whatever reason. Absolutely. And you know, I know that you, you know, there there's some, you know, affiliation and all that good stuff, but yeah. I mean, look, we're talking about them, so it's, it's working. And you know, I, I think they do a superb job. Kathleen (40:55): Oh they are absolutely amazing. And you would not be the first person who mentioned them, so that's definitely to their credit. Jay (41:03): Yeah. I added another point. Yeah, Kathleen (41:05): Seriously. Second question. Most marketers that I talk to, one of their biggest pain points is that they have a really hard time keeping up with just all the developments in the world of digital marketing. It's changing so quickly. So how do you personally stay up to date and keep yourself, Jay (41:24): Okay. This is a pretty interesting question because I think we're living in a world where it's noisier than ever. And I see this happen to business owners and marketers, all the, where they get so excited about it. It could be anything. It doesn't mean the thing that they're getting super excited about doesn't, you know, is not applicable or, or, or works. Regardless of it's a mini webinar or a quiz funnel, podcasts, a tech talk, right. Like it, all of them work. Right. But I'm a big believer of mastery of platforms. And, you know, I'm not saying that just because we have all these amazing things for podcasting, it doesn't mean that your business like it, it might not be a good fit for your business, right. It's, it's, I'm not a big believer that everybody should have a podcast. Every business should, should, should do that. So the way I actually keep myself up to date with it is I pick one each year, just try to pick one marketing, like initiative and one marketing platform to just truly master. And I find, or at least the last few years I have found it to be more fruitful. Just from my productivity and my focus. Kathleen (42:32): That's really good advice. I suspect a lot of people will struggle with that because we, as marketers also suffer from shiny penny syndrome. Jay (42:42): It's business owners. Right. And I think that the question I ultimately asked myself about a year and a bit ago, which what kind of business and what kind of life do am I going to be happy with? Right. Do I want to, you know, find cool little hacks and things to create a little bit of momentum? Or could I find something to really double, triple, quadruple down on and actually just be able to dominate it. Right. And so it's like, I totally hear you because I think so many entrepreneurs and so many marketers in general, they want to be able to say, Hey, you know what I know about this, I know about this. And all of it is really amazing, I think you just have to choose. Yeah. Kathleen (43:18): Absolutely. All right. Well, we're, we're at our time. So if somebody is listening and they want to reach out and ask you a question, learn more about what you're talking about or connect with you online, what is the best way for them to do that? Jay (43:32): So two different spots. One is, if you want to see our entire podcast process from beginning to end, like we lay out all four stages, we call it the top 100 buyers podcast system. You can go see that whole system at doneforyoupodcast.com. If you want to reach out to me and socially stalk me, probably Instagram is the best way to being able to go do that. We post there pretty much daily and our websites, podcasts, your brand in case you want to dive into some other case studies and you want to see every, you know, all the deliverables and all that good stuff. Kathleen (44:06): All right. I will put the links to all of those places in the show notes. So make sure you head over there to check it out. And as always, if you're listening and you liked what you heard, or you learned something new, head to Apple podcasts or the platform of your choice and leave the podcast, preferably a five star review because that's how other people find us. And if you know somebody else who's doing kick ass, inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork, because I would love to interview them. Thank you so much, Jay. This was a lot of fun. Jay (44:36): Yeah. Thank you, Kathleen. This was great.

A conversation with Adam Marblestone about his new project - Focused Research Organizations. Focused Research Organizations (FROs) are a new initiative that Adam is working on to address gaps in current institutional structures. You can read more about them in this white paper that Adam released with Sam Rodriques. Links FRO Whitepaper Adam on Twitter Adam's Website Transcript [00:00:00]   In this conversation, I talked to Adam marble stone about focused research organizations. What are focused research organizations you may ask. It's a good question. Because as of this recording, they don't exist yet. There are new initiatives that Adam is working on to address gaps. In current institutional structures, you can read more about them in the white paper that Adam released recently with San Brad regens. I'll put them in the show notes. Uh, [00:01:00] just a housekeeping note. We talk about F borrows a lot, and that's just the abbreviation for focus, research organizations. just to start off, in case listeners have created a grave error and not yet read the white paper to explain what an fro is. Sure. so an fro is stands for focus research organization. the idea is, is really fundamentally, very simple and maybe we'll get into it. On this chat of why, why it sounds so trivial. And yet isn't completely trivial in our current, system of research structures, but an fro is simply a special purpose organization to pursue a problem defined problem over us over a finite period of time. Irrespective of, any financial gain, like in a startup and, and separate from any existing, academic structure or existing national lab or things [00:02:00] like that. It's just a special purpose organization to solve, a research and development problem. Got it. And so the, you go much more depth in the paper, so I encourage everybody to go read that. I'm actually also really interested in what's what's sort of the backstory that led to this initiative. Yeah. it's kind of, there's kind of a long story, I think for each of us. And I would be curious your, a backstory of how, how you got involved in, in thinking about this as well. And, but I can tell you in my personal experience, I had been spending a number of years, working on neuroscience and technologies related to neuroscience. And the brain is sort of a particularly hard a technology problem in a number of ways. where I think I ran up against our existing research structures. in addition to just my own abilities and [00:03:00] everything, but, but I think, I think I ran up against some structural issues too, in, in dealing with, the brain. So, so basically one thing we want to do, is to map is make a map of the brain. and to do that in a, in a scalable high-speed. Way w what does it mean to have a map of the brain? Like what, what would, what would I see if I was looking at this map? Yeah, well, we could, we could take this example of a mouse brain, for example. just, just, just for instance, so that there's a few things you want to know. You want to know how the individual neurons are connected to each other often through synopsis, but also through some other types of connections called gap junctions. And there are many different kinds of synopsis. and there are many different kinds of neurons and, There's also this incredibly multi-scale nature of this problem where a neuron, you know, it's, it's axon, it's wire that it sends out can shrink down to like a hundred nanometers in [00:04:00] thickness or less. but it can also go over maybe centimeter long, or, you know, if you're talking about, you know, the neurons that go down your spinal cord could be meter long, neurons. so this incredibly multi-scale it poses. Even if irrespective of other problems like brain, computer interfacing or real time communication or so on, it just poses really severe technological challenges, to be able to make the neurons visible and distinguishable. and to do it in a way where, you can use microscopy, two image at a high speed while still preserving all of that information that you need, like which molecules are aware in which neuron are we even looking at right now? So I think, there's a few different ways to approach that technologically one, one is with. The more mature technology is called the electron microscope, electromicroscopy approach, where basically you look at just the membranes of the neurons at any given pixel sort of black or white [00:05:00] or gray scale, you know, is there a membrane present here or not? and then you have to stitch together images. Across this very large volume. but you have to, because you're just able to see which, which, which pixels have membrane or not. you have to image it very fine resolution to be able to then stitch that together later into a three D reconstruction and you're potentially missing some information about where the molecules are. And then there's some other more, less mature technologies that use optical microscopes and they use other technologies like DNA based barcoding or protein based barcoding to label the neurons. Lots of fancy, but no matter how you do this, This is not about the problem that I think can be addressed by a small group of students and postdocs, let's say working in an academic lab, we can go a little bit into why. Yeah, why not? They can certainly make big contributions and have to, to being able to do this. But I think ultimately if we're talking about something like mapping a mouse brain, it's not [00:06:00] going to be, just a, a single investigator science, Well, so it depends on how you think about it. One, one, one way to think about it is if you're just talking about scaling up, quote, unquote, just talking about scaling up the existing, technologies, which in itself entails a lot of challenges. there's a lot of work that isn't academically novel necessarily. It's things like, you know, making sure that, Improving the reliability with which you can make slices of the brain, into, into tiny slices are making sure that they can be loaded, onto, onto the microscope in an automated fast way. those are sort of more engineering problems and technology or process optimization problems. That's one issue. And just like, so Y Y Can't like, why, why couldn't you just sort of have like, isn't that what grad students are for like, you know, it's like pipetting things and, doing, doing graduate work. So like why, why couldn't that be done in the lab? That's not why [00:07:00] they're ultimately there. Although I, you know, I was, I was a grad student, did a lot of pipetting also, but, But ultimately they're grad student. So are there in order to distinguish themselves as, as scientists and publish their own papers and, and really generate a unique academic sort of brand really for their work. Got it. So there's, there's both problems that are lower hanging fruit in order to. in order to generate that type of academic brand, but don't necessarily fit into a systems engineering problem of, of putting together a ConnectTo mapping, system. There's also the fact that grad students in, you know, in neuroscience, you know, may not be professional grade engineers, that, for example, know how to deal with the data handling or computation here, where you would need to be, be paying people much higher salaries, to actually do, you know, the kind of industrial grade, data, data piping, and, and, and many other [00:08:00] aspects. But I think the fundamental thing that I sort of realized that I think San Rodriquez, my coauthor on this white paper also realized it through particularly working on problems that are as hard as, as clinic Comix and as multifaceted as a system building problem. I th I think that's, that's the key is that there's, there's certain classes of problems that are hard to address in academia because they're system building problems in the sense that maybe you need five or six different. activities to be happening simultaneously. And if any, one of them. Doesn't follow through completely. you're sort of, you don't have something that's novel and exciting unless you have all the pieces putting, you know, put together. So I don't have something individually. That's that exciting on my own as a paper, Unless you, and also three other people, separately do very expert level, work, which is itself not academically that interesting. Now having the connectome is academically [00:09:00] interesting to say the least. but yes, not only my incentives. but also everybody else's incentives are to, to maybe spend say 60% of their time doing some academically novel things for their thesis and only spend 40% of their time on, on building the connectome system. Then it's sort of, the probability of the whole thing fitting together. And then. We see everyone can perceive that. And so, you know, they basically, the incentives don't align well, for, for what you would think of as sort of team science or team engineering or systems engineering. yeah. And so I'm like, I think, I think everybody knows that I'm actually like very much in favor of this thing. So, I'm going to play devil's advocate to sort of like tease out. what I think are. Important things to think about. so, so one sort of counter argument would be like, well, what about projects? Like cert, right? Like that [00:10:00] is a government yeah. Led, you should, if you do requires a lot of systems engineering, there's probably a lot of work that is not academic interesting. And yet, it, it, it happens. So like there's clearly like proof of concepts. So like what what's like. W why, why don't we just have more things like, like certain for, the brain. Yeah. And I think this gets very much into why we want to talk about a category of focused research organizations and also a certain scale, which we can get into. So, so I think certain is actually in many ways, a great example of, of this, obviously this kind of team science and team engineering is incredible. And there are many others, like LIGO or, or CBO observatory or the human genome project. These are great examples. I think the, the problem there is simply that these, these are multibillion dollar initiatives that really take decades of sustained. government involvement, to make it happen. And so once they get going, and [00:11:00] once that flywheel sort of start spinning, then you have you have it. And so, and so that, that is a nonacademic research project and also the physics and astronomy communities, I think have more of a track record and pipeline overall. perhaps because it's easier, I think in physical sciences, then in some of these sort of emerging areas of, of, you know, biology or sort of next gen fabrication or other areas where it's, it's, there's less of a, a grounded set of principles. So, so for CERN, everybody in the physics basically can agree. You need to get to a certain energy scale. Right. And so none of the theoretical physicists who work on higher energy systems are going to be able to really experimentally validate what they're doing without a particle accelerator of a certain level. None of the astronomers are gonna be able to really do deep space astronomy without a space telescope. and so you can agree, you know, community-wide that, This is something that's worth doing. And I think there's a lot of incredible innovation that happens in those with focus, research organizations. We're thinking about a scale that, [00:12:00] that sort of medium science, as opposed to small science, which is like a, you know, academic or one or a few labs working together, Or big science, which is like the human genome project was $3 billion. For example, a scope to be about $1 per base pair. I don't know what actually came out, but the human genome has 3 billion basis. So that was a good number. these are supposed to be medium scale. So maybe similar to the size of a DARPA project, which is like maybe between say 25 and. A hundred or $150 million for a project over a finite period of time. And they're there. The idea is also that they can be catalytic. So there's a goal that you could deliver over a, some time period. It doesn't have to be five years. It could be seven years, but there's some, some definable goal over definable time period, which is then also catalytic. so in some ways it will be more equivalent to. For the genome project example, what happened after the genome project where, the [00:13:00] cost of genome sequencing through, through new technologies was brought down, basically by a million fold or so is, is, is, how George Church likes to say it, inventing new technologies, bringing them to a level of, of readiness where they can then be, be used catalytically. whereas CERN, you know, It's just a big experiment that really has to keep going. Right. And it's also sort of a research facility. there's also permanent institutes. I think there's a, is a, is a, certainly a model that can do team science and, and many of the best in the brain mapping space, many of the sort of largest scale. connectomes in particular have come either from Janelia or from the Allen Institute for brain science, which are both sort of permanent institutes, that are, that are sort of, nonacademic or semi academic. but that's also a different thing in the sense that it's, it takes a lot of activation energy to create an Institute. And then that becomes now, a permanent career path rather than sort of focusing solely on what's the shortest path to. To some [00:14:00] innovation, the, the, the permanence. So, so the, the flip side of the permanence is that, I guess, how are you going to convince people to do this, this, like this temporary thing, where. I think, someone asked on Twitter about like, you know, if it's being run by the government, these people are probably going to get, government salaries. So you're, you're getting a government salary, without the like one upside of a government job, which is the security. so like what, what is the incentive for, for people to, to come do this? Yeah. And I think, I think it depends on whether it's government or philanthropic, philanthropic fro Faros are also definitely. An option and maybe in many ways more flexible, because the, you know, the government sort of has to, has to contract in a certain way and compete out, you know, contracts in a certain way. They can't just decide, the exact set of people to do something, for example. So, so the government side has. Both a huge [00:15:00] opportunity in the sense that I think this is a very good match for a number of things that the government really would care about. and the government has, has, has the money, and resources to do this, but philanthropic is also one we should consider. but in any case, there are questions about who and who will do Froy and, and why. and I think the basic answer though, it, it comes down to, it's not a matter of, of cushiness of the career certainty. it's, it's really, these are for problems that are not doable any other way. this is actually in many ways, the definition is that you're only going to do this. if this is the only way to do it, and if it's incredibly important. So it really is a, it's a medium scale moonshots. you would have to be extremely passionate about it. That being said, there are reasons I think in approximate sense why one might want to do it both in terms of initiating one and in terms of sort of B being part of them. [00:16:00] so one is simply that you can do science. that is for a fundamental purpose or, or, or, pure, purely driven toward your passion to solve a problem. and yet can have potentially a number of the affordances of, of industry such as, industry competitive salaries, potentially. I think the government, we have to ask about what the government can do, but, but in a certain philanthropic setting, you could do it another aspect that I think a lot of scientists find. Frustrating in the academic system is precisely that they have to. spend so much work to differentiate themselves and do something that's completely separate from what their friends are doing, in order to pay the bills basically. So, so if, if you don't eventually go and get your own appealing, you know, Tenure track job or, or so on and so forth. the career paths available in academia are much, much fewer, and often not, not super well compensated. And, and [00:17:00] so there are a number of groups of people that I've seen in sort of, if you want critical mass labs or environments where they're working together, actually, despite perhaps the. Incentive to, to, differentiate where they're working, does a group of three or four together. and they would like to stay that way, but they can't stay that way forever. And so it's also an opportunity if you, if you have a group of people that wants to solve a problem, to create something a little bit like, like a seal team. so like when, when I was, I'm not very generally militaristic person, but, when I was a kid, I was very obsessed with the Navy seals. But, but anyway, I think the seal team was sort of very tight knit. kind of a special forces operation that works together on one project is something that a lot of scientists and engineers I think want. and the problem is just that they don't have a structure in which they can do that. Yeah. So then finally, I think that, although in many cases maybe essentially built into the structure fro is make sense. We can [00:18:00] talk about this as, as nonprofit organizations. these are the kinds of projects where, you would be getting a relatively small team together to basically create a new industry. and if you're in the right place at the right time, then after an fro is over, you would be in the ideal place to start. The next startup in an area where it previously, it's not been possible to do startups because the horizons for a venture investment would have been too long to make it happen from the beginning. Well, that's actually a great transition to a place that  I'm still not certain about, which is  what happens. After it fro, cause you, you said that it, that it's a explicitly temporary organization. And then, how do you make sure that it sort of achieves its goal, right? Like, because you can see so many of these, these projects that actually sound really great and they like go in and possibly could do good work and then somehow it all just sort of diffuses. [00:19:00] so, so have you thought about how to sort of make sure that that lives on. Well, this is a tricky thing as we've discussed, in a number of settings. So, in a, like to maybe throw that question back to you after I answer it. Cause I think you have interesting thoughts about that too, but, but in short, it's, it's a tricky thing. So, so the fro. Is entirely legal focused there isn't, there's no expectation that it would continue, by default and simply because it's a great group of people, or because it's been doing interesting work, it's sort of, it is designed to fulfill a certain goal and it should be designed also from the beginning to have a, a plan of the transition. Like it could be a nonprofit organization where it is explicitly intended that at the end, assuming success, One or more startups could be created. One or more datasets could be released and then a, you know, a much less expensive and intensive, nonprofits, structure could be be there to [00:20:00] host the data and provide it to the world. it could be something where. the government would be using it as a sort of prototyping phase for something that could then become a larger project or be incorporated into a larger moonshot project. So I think you explicitly want a, a goal of a finite tune to it, and then also a explicit, upfront, deployment or transition plan, being central to it much more so than any publication or anything. Of course. At the same time. there is the pitfall that when you have a milestone driven or goal focused organization, that the funder would try to micromanage that and say, well, actually, not only do I care about you meeting this goal, but also I really care that by month six, you've actually got exactly this with this instrument and this throughput, and I'm not going to let you buy this other piece of equipment. Unless, you know, you show me that, you know, [00:21:00] and that's a problem that I think, we sometimes see with, externalized research models, like DARPA ARPA models, that try to. achieve more coordination and, and, and goal driven among otherwise, somewhat uncoordinated entities like contractors and, and universities that, that are working on programs, but then they, they, they, they achieve that coordination by then, managing the process and, with an fro, I think it will be closer to. You know, if you have a series, a investment in the startup, you know, you are reporting back to your investors and, and they, they, at some level care, you know, about the process and maybe they're on your board. but ultimately the CEO gets to decide, how am I going to spend the money? And it's extremely flexible to get to the goal. Yeah. Yeah. The, the micromanage, like [00:22:00] figuring out how to avoid, Micromanagement seems like it's going to be really tricky because it's sort of like once you get to that amount of money, I like, have you, have you thought about, like how, like, if you could do some kind of like actually, well, I'll, I'll give her the, the, the, the, the, the thing that the cruxy thing is like this, I think there's a huge amount of trust that needs to happen in it. And what I'm. like I constantly wonder about is like, is there this like fundamental tension between the fact that, especially with like government money, we really do want it to be transparent and well-spent, but at the same time, in order to sort of do these like knowledge frontier projects, sometimes you need to do things that. Are a little weird or like seem like a waste of money at the time, if you're not like intimately connected. and so there's, there's this sort of tension [00:23:00] between accountability and, Sort of like doing the things that need to get done. I agree with that and Efros, we're going to navigate that. Yeah. I agree with that. And I think it relates to a number of themes that you've touched on and that we've discussed with, which has sort of, has to do with the changing overall research landscape of, in what situations can that trust actually occur, you know, in bell labs, I think there was a lot of trust. throughout, throughout that system. And as you have more externalized research, conflicting incentives and so on it, it's, it's hard. It's hard to obtain that trust. startups of course, can align that financially, to a large degree. I think there are things that we want to avoid. so one of the reasons I think that these need to be scoped as. Deliverables driven and roadmaps, systematic projects over finite periods of time, is to avoid, individual [00:24:00] personalities, interests, and sort of conflicting politics, ending up. Fragmenting that resource into a million pieces. So, so I think this is a problem that you see a lot with billion dollar scale projects, major international and national initiatives. Everybody has a different, if you say, I want this to be, to solve neuroscience, you know, and here's $10 billion. Everybody has a different opinion about what solved neuroscience is. And there's also lots of different conflicting personalities and, and leadership there. So I think for an fro, there needs to be an initial phase, where there's a sort of objective process of technology roadmapping. And people figure people understand and transparently understand what are the competing technologies? What are the approaches? What, what are the risks? And you understand it. and you also closely understand the people involved. but importantly, the people doing that roadmapping and sort of catalyzing the initial formation of that [00:25:00] fro need to have a somewhat objective perspective. It's not just funding my lab. It's actually, you, you want to have vision, but you, you need to. Subjected to a relatively objective process, which, which is hard because you also don't want it to be a committee driven consensus process. You want it to be active, in, in a, in a systematic, analysis sense, but, but not in a, everyone agrees and likes it, you know, emotionally sense. and so that, that's a hard thing. but you need to establish it's that trust upfront, with, with the funder, And that's a hard process and it gets a hard process to do as a large government program. I think DARPA does it pretty well with their program managers where a program manager will come in and they will pitch DARPA on the idea of the program. there'll be a lot of analysis behind it and, but then once, once they're going, that program manager has tremendous discretion, and trust. To how they actually run that [00:26:00] project. And so I think you need something like a program manager driven process to initiate the fro and figure out is there appropriate leadership and goals and our livable as reasonable, Yeah, that seems the way, at least the way that it's presented in the paper, it, it feels a little bit chicken and egg in that. so with DARPA, DARPA is a sort of permanent organization that brings in program managers. And then those programmers program managers then go, start programs, whereas, The look at fro it seems like there's this chicken and egg between like, you sort of, you need someone spearheading it. It seems like, but then it, you sort of like, it, it seems like it will be very hard to get someone who's qualified to, to spearhead it, to do that before you have funding, but then you need someone spearheading it in order to get that [00:27:00] funding. yeah. Like, yeah. How, how are you thinking about. Cracking that that's, that's sort of the motivation for me behavior over the next year or two, is that I'm trying to go out and search for them. And, a little bit of it is from my own creativity, but a lot of it is going out and talking to people and try and understand what the best ideas. Here would be, and who are the networks of, of human beings behind those ideas, and trying to make kind of a prioritized set of borrows. Now, this kind of thing would have to be done again, I think to some degree, if there was a, larger umbrella program that someone else wanted to do, but, I'm both trying to get a set of, of exemplary. And representative ideas and people together, and try to help those people get funding. You know, I think there can be a stage process. I agree that, in the absence of a funder showing [00:28:00] really strong interest, people committing, to really be involved is difficult, because it is a big change to people's normal. Progression through life to do something like that. but just like with startups, to the extent that you can identify, someone who's. We spiritually just really wants to do this and we'll kind of do anything to do it, the sort of founder type, and also teams that want to behave like that. that's obviously powerful, and also ideas where there's a kind of inevitability, where based on scientific roadmapping, it, it just has to happen. There's no way, you know, for neuroscience to progress unless we get better. Connectomics and I think we can go through many other fields where, because of. The structures we've had available and just the difficulty of problems now, where arguably Faros are needed in order to make progress in fields that people really care about. So, so I think you can get engagement at the level of, of discussion, and, and, and starting to nucleate [00:29:00] people. But, but there is a bit of a chicken and egg problem. In the sense that it's, it's not so much as here's an fro, would you please fund to me it's we need to go and figure out where there might be Faros to be had, and then who is interested in those problems as well to, to fund and support those things. So, yeah. So I guess to recap what I see your process that is, is that you're going out, you're sort of really trying to. Identify possible people possible ideas, then go to funders and say, here, like sort of get some, some tentative interest of like, okay, what, which of these things might you be interested in if I could get it to go further and then you'll circle back to. the, the people who might be interested in sort of say like, okay, I have someone, a funder who's potentially interested. Can we [00:30:00] sort of like refine the idea? and then sort of like, like you will drive that loop hopefully to, Getting a, an fro funded that's right. And there's, there's further chicken and egg to it. that has to be solved in the sense that, when you go to funders and you say, why, you know, I have an idea for an fro. We also need to explain what an fro is, right? in a way that both, engages people in creating these futuristic models, which many people want to do, While also having some specificity of, of what we're looking for and what, what, what we think is as possible. So, and then the same on, on the, on the side of, of scientists and engineers and entrepreneurs all over the world, who, you know, have the ideas certainly, but most of those ideas have been optimized to hit, the needs of existing structures. So, so we are, we are trying to, I think, broker between those, And [00:31:00] then start prototyping a few. but the, you know, the immediate thing I think is to make, w Tom Coolio has referred to a catalog, a Sears catalog of moonshots. and so we're trying to make a catalog of, of moonshots that fit the fro category. but that sounds like the perfect name for this podcast, by the way. the cataloging mood child, like, you're kind of kind of cataloging moonshots and ways to get moonshots and yeah, absolutely. Yeah. and so I guess another sort of, thing that I've seen, and I'm not sure, it's almost like for people like a lot of people who like really want. Who like sees something as inevitable and they really want to get it done. In sort of like the current environment we're recording in October, 2020. there's. There's sort of this perception that capital is really cheap. [00:32:00] you know, there's a lot of venture capitalists there. They're pretty aggressive about funding and one could make an argument that, if it's, if it, it really is going to be inevitable and it really is going to start a new industry. Then that is exactly where venture capital funding should come in. And I do see this a lot where people, you know, it's like they have this thing that they really want to see exist and they, you know, come out of the lab and it started a company that's sort of extremely common. so. I guess, like, what almost would you say to someone who you see doing this that you think maybe should do an fro instead? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think it's a complicated question and obviously, you know, we got to see VC also, you know, obviously VC backed, you know, innovation is, is, is one of, if not sort of the key, [00:33:00] Things that is driving technology right now. So, so I'm in no way saying that fro is, are somehow superior to two startups, in any generalized way. So I think that things that can be startups and are good as startups should be startups and people, if you have an idea that could be good for a startup, I think you should go do it. Generally speaking. But, there, there are a few considerations, so yeah. So I think you can divide it into categories where VCs, no, it's not a good idea for startups. And therefore won't talk to you, in cases where VCs don't always know whether or not it's good for a startup or whether there's a way that you could do it as a startup, but it would involve some compromise that is actually better not to make, even potentially for the longterm. economic prospects of, of an area. So things that can happen, would be, if you have something that's basically meant to be a kind of platform technology or which you [00:34:00] need to develop a tool or a platform in order to explore a whole very wide space of potential applications. maybe you have something like a new method of microscopy or something, or a new way to measure proteins in the cell or things like that, that, you know, you could target it to a very particular, if you want product market fit application, where you would be able to make the most money on that and get the most traction, the soonest. Yeah. Sometimes people call this, you know, the, the, the, the sort of Tesla Roadster, equivalent. You want to guys as quickly as you can to the Tesla Roadster. And I think generally, what people are doing with, with that kind of model, where you take people that have science, to offer, and you say what's the closest fastest you can get, to a Tesla Roadster that lets you it lets you build, get, get revenue and start, start being financially sustainable and start building a team, to go further. generally that's really good. and generally we need more scientists to learn how to do that. it'd be supported to do that, but, [00:35:00] sometimes you have things that really are meant to be. either generalized platforms or public goods, public data, or knowledge to underlie an entire field. And if you work to try to take the path, the shortest path to the Roadster, you would end up not producing that platform. You would end up, producing something that is specialized to compete in that lowest hanging fruit regime, but then in the, in, in doing so you would forego the more general larger. Larger thing. And, you know, Alan Kay has, has the set of quotes, that Brett Victor took is linked on his website. and I think Alan K meant something very different actually, when he said this, but he's, he refers to the dynamics of the trillions rather than the billions. Right. and this is something where in, and we can talk about this more. I'd be curious about your thoughts on that, but something like the transistor. You know, you, you could try to do the transistor as a startup. and maybe at the time, you know, the best application for transistors would have been [00:36:00] radios. I don't think like that. I think it was, it was guiding a rockets. Yeah. So you could have, you could have sort of had had a transistors for rockets company and then tried to branch out into, becoming Intel. You know, but really, given the structures we had, then the transistor was allowed to be more of a, a broadly, broadly explored platform. yeah, that, that progressed in a way where we got the trillions version. And I worry sometimes that even some startups that have been funded at least for a seed round kind of stage, and that are claiming that they want to develop a general platform are going to actually struggle a little bit later. when investors, you know, see that, see that they would need to spend way more money to build that thing. then the natural shortest path to a Roadster, or another words the Roadster is, is, somehow illusory. yeah. Yeah, this [00:37:00] is, this is a. Sort of like a regime that I'm really interested in and a, just on the transistor example, I've, I've looked at it. So just the, the history is that it was developed at bell labs, in order to prevent a T and T from being broken up, bell labs had to, under strictly licensed a bunch of their innovations, including the transistor William Shockley went off and, Started, chocolate semiconductor, the traders eight then left and started, Fairchild and then Intel. And, believe that that's roughly the right history. but the, the really interesting thing about that is to ask the question of like, one, what would have happened if, bell labs had exclusive license to the transistor and then to what would have happened if they had like exclusively licensed it to, Shockley semiconductor. And I think I would argue in both of those situations, you don't [00:38:00] end up. Having the world we have today because I fell labs. It probably goes down this path where it's not part of the core product. and so they just sort of like do some vaguely interesting things with it, but are never incentivized to like, you know, invent, like the, the planner processing method or anything. Interesting. yeah. Yeah. And so I guess where I'm. Go. And then like at the same time, the interesting thing is like, so Shockley is more, akin to like doing a startup. Right. And so it's like, what if they had exclusive license to it? And the, what I would argue is actually like that also would've killed it because, you have like, they had notoriously bad management. And so if you have this, this company with. And like the only reason that, the trader could go and start a Fairchild was because they, that was, that was [00:39:00] an open license. So this is actually a very long way of asking the question of, if F borrows are going to have a huge impact, it seems like they should default to. Really being open about what they create from like IP to data. but at the same time, that sort of raises this incentive problem where, people who think that they are working on something incredibly valuable, should want to do a startup. And then. And so there, and then similarly, even if they'd be like that sort of couldn't be a thing, they would want to privatize as much of the output of an fro. and so which. Maybe necessary in order to, to get the funding to make it happen. So I guess like, how are you thinking about that tension? That was a very long winded. Yeah. [00:40:00] Yeah. Well, there's, there's a lot, a lot there, I think, to loop back to you. So, so I think, right, so, so this idea that we've talked a bit about as sort of default openness, so, so things that can be open for maximum impact should be open. there are some exceptions to that. So, so if, And it's also has to do partly with how you're scoping the problem. Right? So, so rather than having an SRO that develops drugs, let's say, because drugs really need to be patentable, right. In order to get through clinical trials, we're talking about much more money than the fro funding, you know, to do the initial discovery of a target or something. Right. So to actually bring that to humans, you know, you need to have the ability to get exclusive IP. for downstream investors and pharma companies that that would get involved in that. so there are some things that need to be patented in order to have to have their impact. but in general, you, you want, I think fro problems to steer themselves to things where indeed. it can be maximally open and maybe, maybe you, you provide [00:41:00] a system that can be used to, to, or underlie the discovery of a whole new sets of classes of drugs and so on. But you're not so much focused on the drugs themselves. Now, that being said, right. if I invest in an SRO, and I've enabled this thing, right. It kind of would make sense for the effort, you know, maybe three of the people of, of, of, of 15 in the fro will then go and start a company afterwards that then capitalizes on this and actually develops those drugs or what have you, or it takes it to the next stage. And gosh, it would really make sense if I had funded in fro. that's, those people would like to take me as a sort of first, first, first refusal to get a good deal on, on investing in this startup, for example. Right. so I think there are indirect network-based, or potentially even legal based, structure, structure based ways to both incentivize the investors and, But it's, it's a weaker, admittedly weaker, incentive financially than, [00:42:00] than, than the full capture of, of, of something. But then, but then there's, I think this gets back to the previous discussion. So which is sort of the trillions rather than the billions. So if you have something where maybe there are 10 different applications of it, Right in 10 different fields. you know, maybe, maybe we have a better way to measure proteins and based on this better way to measure proteins, we can do things in oncology and we can do things in Alzheimer's and we can do things in a bunch of different directions. We can do things in diagnostics and pandemic surveillance, and so many fields that one startup, It would be hard even to design, to start, if that could capture all of that value just as it would have been hard to design sort of transistor incorporated. Right. Right. given that, I think there's, there's a lot of reason to. To do an fro and then explore the space of applications. Use it as a means to explore a full space in which you'll then get [00:43:00] 10 startups. so if I'm the investor, I might like to be involved in all 10 of the new industry, right. And the way to do that would be to create a platform with which I can explore, but then I have a longer time horizon. Cause I have to first build the thing. Then I have to explore the application space and only then. do I get to invest in a specific verticals, right? Yeah. I think the, the two sort of tricky questions that I, I wonder about what that is one. So you mentioned like, Oh, there's 15 people in an fro, three of them go off to start a startup. What about those other 12 people? Like, I, I assume that they might be a little bit frustrated if, if that happens, Yeah, because like, like they, they did, they did help generate that value in it. It sort of gets into two questions of like capturing, like sort of kicking back, value generated by research in general, but like, yeah, it could, it could, it could be all 15 people, you know, we saw something [00:44:00] similar with open AI, you know, in a way, for example, converting, you know, into, into a, for profit or at least a big arm of it being, being the for-profit, and keeping all the people. Right. So you, you, you, you can imagine, just blanket converting. but yeah, I think, I think it's sort of, In the nature of it, that these are supposed to be things that open up such wide spaces that there's, there's sort of enough for everyone, but no, no, no one person necessarily one startup would completely capture. And I think that's true for clinic Comix too, for example. Right. So if you had really high throughput clinical, connectomics just, just to keep going on this example, that's a great example of perfect. It's a good thing as a good example. It's not. Depending on the details, whether this is exactly the first fro or not. I think it's totally, totally other issue, but, but. Connectomics there's potentially applications for AI and you know, how, how the neurocircuits work, and sort of fundamental, funding. Mental is a brain architecture and intelligence. although there's a bunch of ranges of the sort of uncertainty of exactly what that's going to be. So it's hard to sort of [00:45:00] know it until you see the data. There's also potentially applications for something like drug screening, where you could put a bunch of different, Kind of some CRISPR molecules or drug perturbations on, on a, on a brain and then look at what each one does to their, the synopsis or, and look at that in a, in a brain region specific way and sort of have ultra high, but connect to them based drug screening. Neither of those are things you can start a start up until you have connected. Right. working. but so anyway, so maybe three people would start an AI company and maybe those would be the very risk tolerant ones. and then three would start at, you know, a crisper drug company and, and, and, three would just do, do fundamental neuroscience with it and, take those capabilities and, and, and go, go back into the university system or so on and yeah. And start using that. Yeah. And the, the sort of the other related to. like creating value with it. there's, there's a little like uncut discomfort that like even I have [00:46:00] with, say like philanthropic or government funding, then going to fund a thing that proceeds to make a couple of people very wealthy. Which like, and like, there's very much arguments on both sides, right. Where it's like, it'll generate a lot of good for the world. and, and all and, and such. so, so like, I guess what would you say? I guess like, as a, as a, like, if I were a very wealthy philanthropist and I'm like, do it, like, you know, it's like, I'm just giving away money so that these people can. Yeah, the company is a complicated thing. Right? How much, how many further rich people, you know, did the Rockefeller foundation, you know, investing in the basics of molecular biology or things like that ended up generating? I mean, I think that, I think you, I think in some way the government does want to end up is they want the widely distributed benefit. And I think everything that should be an SRO should have widely distributed benefits. It shouldn't just [00:47:00] be a kind of, A startup that just, just enhances one, one person. It should be something that really contributes very broadly to economic growth and understanding of the universe and all that. But it's almost inevitable. I think that, if you create a new industry, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna feel it going to be some more written about rich successful people in that industry. And they're probably going to be some of the people that were involved. Early and thinking about it for the longest and waiting for the right time to really enter it. And so, yeah, that's a really good point. I guess the, then the question would be like, how do you know, like, like what are, what are sort of a, the sniff test you use to think about whether something would have broadly distributed benefits? That's a great question. Cause it's like connect to them. It seems like fairly clear cut or, or generating sort of like a massive data set that you then open up. Feels very [00:48:00] clear. Cut. it's. We we've talked before about that, like fro is, could like scale up a process or build a proof of concept of, of a technology. and it, it seems like that it's less clear cut how you can be sure that those are going to, like if they succeed. Yeah. I mean, there are a few different frames on it, but I mean, I think one is, FRS could develop technologies that allow you to really reduce the cost of having some. Downstream set of capabilities. so, you know, if, just to give you an example, right? If, if we had, much lower costs, gene therapies available, right? So, so sometimes when drug prices are high, you know, this is basically it's recouping these very large R and D costs and then there's competition and, and, and profit and everything involved. you know, there was the marching squarely situation and, you know, there's a bunch of, sort of. What was that? there was, remember the details, but there [00:49:00] was some instance within which, a financially controlling entity to sort of arbitrarily bumped drug prices way high, right. A particular drug. and then w was, you know, was regarded as an evil person then, and maybe that's right. but anyway, there are some places I think, within the biomedical system where you can genuinely reduce costs for everyone. Right. and it's not simply that I, you know, I make this drug and I captured a bunch of value on this drug, but you know, it's really, it should be available to everyone and I'm just copying there. There's genuine possibility to reduce costs. So if I could reduce the cost of, of the actual manufacturing of. The viruses that you use for gene therapy, that's a, that's a process innovation. that would be, you could order as a magnitude drop the cost of gene therapy. If you could figure out what's going on, in the aging process and what are the real levers on a single, you know, biological interventions that would prevent multiple age related diseases that [00:50:00] would massively drop the cost. Right? So those, those are things where, Maybe even in some ways it would be threatening, to some of, some of the pharma companies, you know, that, that work on specific age related diseases, right? Because you're going to have something that, that replaced, but this is, this is what, you know, things that are broad productivity improvements. And I think economists and people very broadly agree that, that the science and technology innovations, For the most part. although sometimes they can be used to in a way that sort of, only benefits, a very small number of people that generally speaking there's a lot you can do, with technology that will be extremely broadly shared in terms of benefit, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I do actually, like I agree with that. I'm, I'm just, I'm trying to represent as much skepticism as, as possible. Definitely. I know you agree with that. And actually, another thing that I have no idea about which I'm really interested in is as you're going and sort of creating this, [00:51:00] this moonshot catalog. how do you tell the difference between people who have these really big ideas who are like hardcore legit? but like maybe a little bit crazy. And then people who are just crackpots. Yeah, well, I don't claim to be able to do it in every field. and, and I think there's a reason why I've, I'm not trying to do a quantum gravity, fro you know, both, both, because I don't know that that's, you know, I think that's maybe better matched for just individual. Totally. Open-ended Sunday, you know, fun, brilliant people for 30 or 40 year long period to just do whatever they want. Right. Yeah. For quantum gravity, rather than directed, you know, research, but, But also because there's a class of problem that I think requires a sort of Einsteinian type breakthrough in fr fro is, are not, not perfect for that in terms of finding people. I mean, I, I find that, there's a lot of pent up need for, this is that's my preliminary feeling. and you can see there's a [00:52:00] question of prioritizing, which are the most important, but there's a huge number of. Process innovations or system building innovations that are needed across many, many fields. And you don't need to necessarily have things that even sound that crazy. There are some that just kind of just make sense, you know, are, are very simple. You know, we here, here in our lab, we have this measurement technology, but we, you know, we can only have the throughput of one cell, you know, every, every few weeks. And if we could build the system, we could get a throughput of, you know, A hundred thousand cells, you know, every month or something. Right. there are some, there's some sort of ones that are pretty obvious, or where there's an obvious inefficiency. In kind of, how things are structured. Like every, every company and lab that's that's modeling fusion reactors, and then also within the fusion reactor, each individual component of it, like the neutrons in the wall versus the Plaza and the core, those are basically modeled with different. Codes many of which are many [00:53:00] decades old. So there's sort of an obvious opportunity to sort of make like a CAD software for fusion, for example, you know, that the, the, it doesn't, it's not actually crazy. It's actually just really basic stuff. In some cases, I think they're ones where we'll need more roadmapping and more bringing people together to really workshop the idea, to really have people that are more expert than me say, critique each other and see what's. Really going on in the fields. and I also rely on a lot of outside experts. if I have someone comes with an idea, you know, for, for energy, you know, and I'm talking to people that are like former RPE program managers or things like that, that, that know more of the questions. so I think we can, we can, we can do a certain amount of, of due diligence on ideas and. and then there are some that are, that are really far out. you know, we both have an interest in atomically precise manufacturing, and that that's when, where we don't know the path I think, forward. and so that's maybe a pre fro that's something where you [00:54:00] need a roadmapping approach, but it's maybe not quite ready to, to just immediately do an fro. Yeah, no, that's, you sort of hit on a really interesting point, which is that. when we think of moonshots, it's generally like this big, exciting thing, but perhaps some of the most valuable is will actually sound incredibly boring, but the things that they'll unlock will be. Extremely exciting. yeah, I think that's true. And, and you have to distinguish there's there's boring. Right? So, so I think there's, there's some decoupling of exactly how much innovation is required and exactly how important something is. And also just how much brute force is required. So I think in general, our system might under weight, the importance of brute force. And somewhat overweight the importance of sort of creative, individual breakthrough thinking. at the same time, there are problems where I think we are bottlenecked by thinking I'm like really how to do something, not just to [00:55:00] connect them of brain, but how do you actually do activity map of entire brain? You actually need to get a bunch of physicists together and stuff to really figure out what's, you know, there's a level of thinking that is not very non-obvious similarly for like truly next gen fabrication. You really, really, really need to do the technology roadmapping approach. And that's a little different than the fro. And in some cases there may be a, as we discussed, I think in the past, there was sort of a, a continuum potentially between DARPA type programs or programs that would start within the existing systems and try to catalyze the emergence of ideas and discoveries. And then fro is, which are a bit, a bit more cut and dry. And in some cases, even you could think of it as boring. but just very important.  how do we prevent Faros from becoming a political football? because you see this all the time where, you know, a Senator will say, well, like I'll sponsor this bill, as long as we mandate that. 50% of the work has to happen in my particular state or [00:56:00] district. and, and I imagine that that would be counterproductive towards the goals of . so do you, do you have any sense of like how to, how to get around that probably much easier in philanthropic setting than governments? Although I think I'm overall, I'm, I'm sort of optimistic that, if. If the goals are made very clear, the goal is disruptive, you know, multiplicative improvements in scientific fields. that's the primary goal. It needs to be managed well. so it's not either about the individual peoples, if you want academic politics and also that it doesn't, doesn't become about sort of, you know, districts, congressional districts, or all sorts of other things. I think there's a certain amount of complexity, but the other, the other thing is. I think there's really amazing things to be done in all sorts of places and by all sorts of people that are not necessarily identified as, as the biggest egos or the largest cities also, although certainly there are hubs that [00:57:00] matter. yeah. Cool. I think so. I think those are all like the actual questions I have. Is there anything you want to talk about that we have not touched on? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, how does this fit into two things that you're thinking about, in terms of your overall analysis of the research system, then, do you think this, what is this leave unsolved as well? if, even if we can get some big philanthropic and government, donors. Yeah. So, so there are sort of two things that I. see it not covering. And so the, the first that you you've sort of touched on is that there are, some problems that still like don't fit into academia, but are not quite at the point where they're ready to be at fro. And so, they need, the, the like mindset of the fro without. Having this sort of, cut and dryness [00:58:00] that you need to sort of plunk down, like have the confidence to plunk down $50 million. so, so we need sort of a, a, what I would see as a sustainable, way of. Getting to the point of fro type projects. And as you know, I'm spending a lot of time with that. and then sort of a, the other thing that I've realized is that when, when people, we sort of have these discussions that are like research is broken, I think what we're actually talking about is, is sort of two really separate phenomenon. So, what we've been talking about, like Efros, Are really sort of sitting in like the Valley of death where it's like helping bridge that. but I think that at the same time, there there's like what I would call like the, the Einstein wouldn't get in any funding problem, which is, as you alluded to there, there are some of these things, like some of the [00:59:00] problems with research that we talk about are just about, The sort of conformity and specialization of really idea based exploratory, like completely uncertain research. And that's also really important, but I, I think it's what we don't do is, is, is sort of like separate those two things out and say like, these are both fall under the category of research, but are in fact. Extremely different processes. They require very different solutions. Yeah. Actually let me, let me, since you mentioned that, and since we are here together on the podcast, I agree with that and I, I have some things to say about that as well. So, so I think that the fro is indeed only address, or are designed to address this issue of sort of system building. problems that have a sort of catalytic nature and are a particular kind of pre-commercial stage. Right? So in some ways, [01:00:00] even though I'm so excited about borrows and how much they can unlock, because I think that this is one of two or three categories that has been, you know, under emphasized by current systems or has systems currently have struggled with it. there are these others. So, so I think that. The, the supporting the next Einstein and people that may have also have just be cognitively socially in any other number of ways, just different and weird and not good at writing grants. You know, not good at competing. Maybe not even good at graduating undergrad. Yeah. You know, I'm running a lab who are, are brilliant and because the system now. Has proliferate in terms of the number of scientists. it's very competitive and, and there is a, there's a lot of need to sort of filter people based on credentials. So there's this sort of credential there's people that don't fit with perfectly with credentials or with a sort of monoculture of who is able to get NSF grants and go through the university system and [01:01:00] get the PhD and all those different Alexey goosey has this nice blog post is oriented toward biomedical, but saying basically that in order to get through the system, you need to do 10 or 15 things simultaneously. Well, and also be lucky. And maybe we want to be looking for some people that are only able to do three of those things about, but are orders of magnitude better than others, then there's people even who have done well with those things, but still don't have the funding or sort of sustained ability, to, to pursue their own individual ideas over decades. even if they do get tenure or something, because the grant system is based on peer review and is, is sort of filtering out really new ideas, for whatever reason, There's kind of the broader issue that Michael Nielsen has talked about, which is sort of the idea that too much funding is centralized in a single organizational model. So particularly the NIH, the NIH grant is kind of hegemonic as, as, as a structure and as a peer review mechanism. then I think we need more [01:02:00] DARPA stuff. We probably need more darker agencies for other problems. Even though I've, I've sort of said that I think Rose can solve some problems that DARPA DARPA will struggle with. Likewise, DARPA walls solve problems that fro may struggle with. particularly if there's a very widely distributed expertise across the world that you need to bring together in a, some transient, interesting way, for a little bit more discovery oriented, perhaps in Faros and less deliverable oriented or team oriented. And then there's even bigger things we need, you know, like we need to be able to create, you know, a bell labs for energy, you know, or sort of something even bigger than fro. so yeah, I think the thing that you're, you're getting at that I is, is sort of simple, but under done is actually analyzing like what the activity is and what. How to best support it. Yep. Which is instead of just saying [01:03:00] like, ah, there's some research let's give some money to the research and then magical things will happen actually saying like, okay, like, like how does this work? Like what, and then what can we do for these, these specific situation? Yes. I think as you've identified. Like there's both on the one hand, there's the tendency to micromanage research and say, research has to do this, this with this equipment and this timescale it's entirely, this is sort of subject to milestone. And on the other hand is research is this magical thing. We have no idea. but just. Let other scientists, peer review each other, and just sort of give as much money to it as we can. and then we see what happens. Right. And I think neither of those, is a, is a good design philosophy, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think it involves people like thinking it's it's uncomfortable, but like, like thinking and learning about. How, how did you think then understanding how it could, how it could be different? [01:04:00] How it's not a it's it's a system. Kevin has felt set, said it said it well. And so in some ways it's been designed, but really our scientific systems are something that has evolved into large degree. No one has designed it. It's not. Something that's designed to be optimal is it's a, it's a emergent property of many different people's incentives. And, if we actually try to apply more design thinking, I think, I think that can be good as long as we're not over overconfident in saying that there's one model for everyone. Yeah. I think that the trick to, sort of fixing. Emergent systems is to like, basically like do little experiments, poking at them. And that's, that's very much what I see getting fro is going okay. It's like, you're not saying, Oh, we should like dismantle the NSF and have it all be . Okay. Let's do a couple of these. See what happens. That's right. It's I think it's inherently a small perturbation and it it's. And I [01:05:00] think DARPA, by the way is a similar thing. It's sort of dark. You wouldn't need DARPA. If everything else was already sort of efficient, right. Given that things are not perfectly efficient, Darko has all these, all these sort of this niche that it fills. I think similarly Faros, they can only exist. if you also have a huge university system and you also have companies that that doesn't make sense, otherwise it's, it's a perturbation, but as we, I think it's a perturbation in which you unlock a pretty big pressure stream sort of behind it when you open it up. So. Excellent. Well, I think that's, that's actually a great place to close. I guess the last question would be, Like, if people are interested in, in Faros, especially like funding or running one, what is the best way for them to reach you? Well, they can, they can talk to me or they can talk to you. my email has, is prominently listed on my website. Twitter is great. and that, yeah, I really interested in, people that have a kind of specificity [01:06:00] of, of, of what they want of, you know, here here's, here's what I would do, very specifically, but I'm also interested in talking to people that, See problems with the current systems and want to do something and want to learn about, other highly specific fro ideas that others might have, and how to enable those.  

Today I have a special, special, special guest. It’s a very good friend, Michael Brenner. And he's a CMO influencer, motivational speaker. You have to check him out!  Also, he owns the Marketing Insider Group.  And I use that website quite a bit, actually. There's a lot of useful contents regarding content marketing, search marketing. So anything digital marketing related. So welcome Michael.   Michael Brenner: Yeah, Pam. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Pam Didner: Am I loud enough? Michael Brenner: No, you're perfect. You're perfect.   Pam Didner: So, 2020 has been an interesting year, especially for all of us marketers. Obviously for me, I want to be 100% transparent when March hit, like all of my pipeline just like disappeared. So what have you been seeing in the past four months? Your observations? How is the B2B marketing landscape doing as a whole? Do you have any insight to show with us?   Michael Brenner: Yeah, a couple of things. One is I think that there was a pretty early on a shift out of, let's say, blatant promotional ads. And it started in B2C. I think even the CEO of Coca-Cola said “brand advertising is completely ineffective,” which I love that quote. I'm like, says the largest, most recognized brand in the world. And I always explained the context for that quote with, during the pandemic, but why is it not applied normally? You know, like why does he think brand advertising isn't effective now, but it is in other times? So I think B2B, marketers shifted budget out of those kinds of display ads and things like that.   Pam Didner: More promotional centric. Yeah. More promotional things.   Michael Brenner: Yeah. I think they shifted away from sort of, you know, having a banner ad next to a bad story on online about people dying and stuff like that. But also event events weren't happening--as you and I know, cause that's where we always get to catch up and see each other--either shut down or moved online. And so a lot of brands I think, shifted their budget out of events. I mean, we got a couple of clients who just basically said, “Hey, I was going to spend this 30 K on this event, but can I buy your services for a whole year? And so we got one or two clients just because they shifted out of an event spend.   Pam Didner: Fantastic! That’s fantastic Mike. Way to go!   Michael Brenner: I feel very, very lucky. And, um, to have been able to support some fun clients with that stuff. Uh, what else? We also saw I think marketers were really, really struggling just emotionally and mentally, but, really feeling the pressure of delivering, you know, ROI.   Pam Didner: 100% agree. Yeah.   Michael Brenner: Yeah. Yeah. So I, I did like Jay Baer and asked me to do like a video. He was working with Oracle or some company, I think it was Oracle. And he's like, what's what are you seeing? And I said, we're seeing a return to focus on the corporate blog, which I think is really interesting. It's cause it's, you know, and lucky for me cause it's what we do. But, um, you know, it's just, it's, it's SEO, it's organic traffic. It's measurable. It's not spammy ads. Just original thought leadership, helpful kind of content. What I'm hoping is that it continues and, you know, I love telling people like “the future of marketing, ain't what you thought it was.” It's what it was always supposed to be. And that was helpful content to live deliver consistently. You know, it's not going to be AI and AR and VR and all these fun, voice search. And all of those things are trends that we should all be paying attention to. I think it's just back to the basics, focus on customers, deliver content that they want and try to figure out how to convert them.   Pam Didner: Yeah. I, uh, I saw similar trend, as well, in terms of the marketing needs to actually showcase the ROI. At least from my perspective, you are talking about the content--that shifting back to the basics--which is the original content, creator content. What I have seen is to show your ROI is an another approach, which has worked very closely with your sales team. And that's a thing I see that the more and more marketers, especially actually on the B2B side, they actually why to make an effort to align with your sales effort, whatever seems to be doing, we try to compliment, compliment that such as account based marketing. And even they do re-targeting ads nowadays. It's pretty, pretty, uh, specific.   Michael Brenner: Yeah. Isn't that funny that it's sales and marketing alignment, you know, you and I were talking about that 10-15 years ago.   Pam Didner: Don’t you think that’s kind of basic (laughs) but anyway.   Michael Brenner: It's true. And a lot of it's because I think salespeople who are used to being out on the road and going to events and shaking hands with people. And they're sitting in their front of their computers like you and I have been, and they're like, “wow, I think I need the marketing team to help me with content.” And with, like you said, account based marketing, you know, all of those kinds of things. Um, the sales and marketing alignment conversation came back to the forefront.   Pam Didner: Yeah, I totally agree. Totally agree.   Michael Brenner: Yeah. It's kind of fun.   Pam Didner: Yeah. In terms of the shift, I have seen some challenges I heard from at least my clients or talking to some marketing peers. And obviously one of them is the buyer’s purchasing behaviors have changed like 50% of the buyers, especially on the consumer side. I'm using this as a data data point that they actually tried a purchase through a new brand. I mean, the first one I have to can tell you is probably everybody's using Zoom, but before the pandemic Zoom was not a popular, right? And that's the new purchase. And also another thing that everybody's using is the, this selfie ring. (makes ring sound) Right? So that's also a new purchase. Obviously, if the customers are spending money on something else, that means they are not necessarily buying stuff from the existing brand. So, with that being said, what do you suggest that marketers should do? Because they obviously like, like,us, they probably see some of the existing customers disappearing or going somewhere else.   Michael Brenner: It's a great, question. I've always talked about retention as the sort of stepchild-- it's the lost, lost child of marketing objectives. There's only four: reach, engage, convert, and retain. But we never talked about retention. And I think in what we're seeing now, it exactly to your point is we need to make sure that we're keeping the customers we have first and foremost.     Pam Didner: I totally agree. And the sales goal has changed as well. For the longest time is always a net new. Right? Try to get the net new, which is the new customers. But during a pandemic, they shift their strategy is basically what can we do to retain our existing customers? What can we do to cross sales and the post-sales? So it's a similar strategy.   Michael Brenner: We have one client where we worked with them on a gifting strategy. You know, we talked about, you know, instead of sending pens and pencils and, you know, um, you know, t-shirts with logos on them. I actually have somebody on my team is really good with puns.   Pam Didner: Really? Do you know a tool called Aoyce? A-o-y-c-e ?. So check it out Michael. It’s algorithms to actually crawl customer’s social media profiles, and then the machines will come up with some interesting ideas and the marketer to suggest what kind of ideas you should gift them.   Michael Brenner: Interesting.   Pam Didner: Yes, I know   Michael Brenner: I’m checking it out.   Pam Didner: They’ll do fulfillment as far as I know. So check that one out.   Michael Brenner: I like it,   Pam Didner: But keep going. Sorry to interrupt.   Michael Brenner: No, no, no, that's great. I'm, I'm going to check that out because it's, like I said, it's something we've been asked to do for clients. It's something we're doing with our own clients. Um, I'll, I'll tell you one of our strategies. So John and Kira’s does a chocolate it's a bumblebee. It's kind of a famous sort of gift thing of chocolate. And so I send it to our clients when we first sign up with them and say, “looking forward to creating buzz-worthy content with you!”   Pam Didner: I like it! I love it!. So that’a also kind of aligned with your message and what you offer.   Michael Brenner: Exactly. So, yeah, so I, I, you know, but I see large brands trying to figure out how to do that at-scale. It's kind of like account based marketing in a more personal –   Pam Didner: In a different way. Yeah. I was going to say that: it's another form of account based marketing. I know we don't use that term for like, you know, gifting, but it's a different form of account based marketing and full retention.   Michael Brenner: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like account based marketing and personalization and being more human, you know, just kind of being more, more like literally personalized, not just like “Dear Pam” in my email, but like actually Dear Pam, I'm sending you a personal gift that might be, you know, something you like.   Pam Didner: Yeah. But on top of it, everything, all the benefit you say plus on-brand. Yeah.   Michael Brenner: Yeah. And it all comes back to relationships. Right? I mean, I think that's, what's, that's, what's winning, what's winning in these days. Yeah, the AI can help, but in the end it's really because it's…   Pam Didner: … it’s building the relationship. It's a full circle. So. Obviously marketers are all making changes, small, large, right, to accommodate the current situation. And we know that we probably in this for a long haul. (laughs)   Michael Brenner: Yeah.   Pam Didner: Do you actually have any suggestion in terms of if they are making changes right now? Obviously there's so many things we have to tackle first, right? What are like one or two things that needs to be done first?   Michael Brenner: One is I think marketers need to better define what marketing is to the rest of the organization. And what I mean by that is there's always been two kinds of marketers. There's the strategic value driven, “I'm only going to do stuff that drives value” marketer and that's kind of what I've always tried to be. And then there's the people--and we all know them, we all, we've all worked with these people--they're the ones that just, they just want to do what they're told. And we, you could say that the brown-nosers are, they're the, the butt kissers or whatever you want, whatever analogy you want to use for them…   Pam Didner: But you know I have to be … the thing is Michael, I have to be a devil's advocate sometimes like in the big enterprise--both of us work in the big enterprise for a long time--you have to deal with politics. And sometimes you just have to play the game. I mean, not all the time, but in certain situations.   Michael Brenner: Sure, yes So like, if your boss says, I want you to go pick up my dry cleaning, do you do it? (laughs)   Pam Didner: Probably not, I was like, someone else do it. But I'm talking about like content, like sometimes your boss want you to create, but sometimes he was just like self-serving. That's the things I struggled the most, a lot of times.   Michael Brenner: So this is--and I talk about this in Mean People Suck-- there's this, I call it the “you can't have your cake and eat it too” problem. So, um, basically, and I use this analogy with, with a difficult stakeholder a couple of years ago, when I was at SAP, she was asking for leads. And I said, “Great. That's what I know how to do. This is the program is how we're going to do it. I'm going to use existing budget. You don't need to spend anymore. We're just going to shift away from the stuff that you liked to do, but didn't work and put it into this other thing.” And she said, “No, I want a chocolate cake, but I want you to use vanilla icing.” And I'm like, Nope. Or “I want a chocolate cake and I want you to use the sand from the beach.” Like I, so I, I remember telling her I'm like, “you can't have a cake and tell me how to bake it.”     Pam Didner: Yeah.   Michael Brenner: If you want a chocolate cake, I know how to bake a…   Pam Didner: Like let you do your job..   Michael Brenner: Yes, exactly. So, sure. There were things we did for her that weren't adding value, but it was only after we made sure we were doing things that were going to give her the goal that she wanted to achieve. And that that's a conversation I think marketers need to have today. It's listen, we, we can't just be the team of people that go do stuff for you at the whim of any executive. Um, we can do things like you said, and playing devil's advocate, I think that's important. There's always going to be times when you have to play the game. But it should only happen in let's see over time, right? Like in the four quarters, you know, again, following the same analogy, um, during the heart of the game, you need to make sure you're going to win. And if that means doing a little dance in the end zone or what, you know, or whatever, then you can do that. But, but it has to only be after you've met the business goal. That's the first thing. The other side of that coin is so we have to redefine marketing as strategically delivering value for the organization. The other thing--and this one's even probably harder--I think marketing needs to help lead the cultural transformation inside companies to focus on customers. And it's just like, it's just like we, you know, the people that are butt kissers at work? that we've worked with before? In the same way, we know the companies that don't give a crap about customers and, you know, they'll say, “well, I'm here to support the brand. And the brand has to drive profit.” The best way to get profit is to focus on customers and the best team that can lead that transformation is marketing. It means that they're talking to the CHRO. It means that they've got the mandate from the CEO to deliver employee engagement policies that focus on customer service; they are training on customer service; they're enabling their employees to not only be engaged at work, but also to make sure that they're engaging with customers and driving value there.   Pam Didner: Yeah. But that's a total older, would you say? I mean, in terms of marketing, a lot of times we focus on content creation. We focus on the marketing outreach and I don't think that is something that the marketing usually takes on. Right?   It’s usually HR’s job to drive the cultural difference, the cultural transformation, and even is Operations job to kinda make sure everybody focused on processes. But the customer part of it, uh, some, some of them actually within the sales team because they've worked with, uh, uh, customers and those will key accounts. Yeah. So I liked that. And that's actually, like I said, um, it's something that marketers needs to focus on internally.   Michael Brenner: Yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, I mean, I have a client who's CMO is a product marketer by training and wants to bring a product marketing, focus into all of their marketing. And it's the opposite of strategic. It's the opposite of customer focus and it's shortsighted. And it sounds great in the ears of the CEO, but it doesn't work. And you and I have talked about this, Pam, is bringing together the product marketing and the content marketing mindset to work together because we have to work together. Content marketing doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists to sell more products. But it, it works because it doesn't lead with that message. It doesn't lead with, “we have great stuff, you should buy it: because no one wants to listen to that. No one cares about your speeds and feeds and, you know, texts and specs or, whatever, whatever phrase you want.   Pam Didner: What? That’s not acceptable. (laughs)   Michael Brenner: But, you know, when we let product marketers run the ship, it's a disaster and we all know it. We've all seen it. And it's, it's why we have to redefine what marketing is, focus on results and put customers first across the entire organization. And that's a winning strategy for marketers. It's a winning strategy for marketing. So what's the opposite? The opposite is marketers are just people that do shit that people ask him to do. And what's that mean? It means creating brochures for products and making the banners for when we go back to do events. I mean, that's what marketers are going to end up being and that's what marketing is going to end up doing in those organizations that don't make those changes now.   Pam Didner: Yeah. Any other additional point that you want to add in terms of planning 2021 discussion?   Michael Brenner: I think the two things that marketers should be doing at a tactical level for 2021: ask your customers, what are their greatest challenges for 2021?   Pam Didner: I like that. I love that. Yup.   Michael Brenner: Have a plan to address those challenges, create the context for your solutions. And ask the sales team what their greatest challenges are. They're going to say leads. They're going to say having leads more qualified, they're going to say, you know, net new, they're going to say what retention strategy, whatever those, whatever they are, ask them what they are. Quantify it and create strategies to address them. That's it? Simple stuff.   Pam Didner: Understood. So tell our listeners, how can they find you?   Michael Brenner: Well, I would love to say just Google me, but you know, the problem is, is, um, is there's a really famous, I swear to God, there's a rocket scientist and a brain surgeon that show up first in Google.   Pam Didner: As a Michael Brenner? (laughs)   Michael Brenner: And then there's a historian. Well, there's actually two there's the political writer and a Jewish historian who writes like a book every three months it seems like. Uh, so these folks come up for me. So I, I wish I wish I came up first, but I do think the brain surgeon, the rocket scientist, the political writer and the historian probably should come up before me. Um, but yeah, MarketingInsiderGroup.com go to LinkedIn. And if you do search for Michael Brenner on LinkedIn, it should show up.   Pam Didner: Awesome. Hey, I want to ask you one question. All right. Kind of silly question, but I love it. What is the useless talent that you have?   Michael Brenner: This is, this is the most useless talent, and there's gotta be some sort of a name for this, but I, for some reason, even as a kid, um, read words backwards. So when I see like a billboard, I read it backwards in my head to see if it creates funny words or funny sounds.   Pam Didner: I love that! I absolutely love that!     Michael Brenner: Yes, So your first name is "map" backwards, right? Very, very simple. Yeah. So I'm Leahcim Rennerb, Michael Brenner. So, yeah, so,   Pam Didner: Oh my goodness. So when I see you, the only thing that pops into your mind is map. Okay, great, fine, I feel the love.   Michael Brenner: No, no, no. It's not that it's not that crazy. It's just, when I see words, I see my brain just does this, like little it's, like I don't have a boredom or something, I don't know. So I told my kids that this morning, and they were actually using bad words backwards to kind of make a joke about it. (laughs)   Pam Didner: (laughs) Isn’t that the saddest, when you tell something like this to a kids, the first thing audio into my mind is, “okay, what is the word I can think of that sounds bad? Ok fart!   Michael Brenner: it's "traf." Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So how about that? Hopefully you've never heard that.   Pam Didner: No, never, ever. And I was like, alright, you are literally on the number one spot in terms of useless.   Michael Brenner: I know I'm going to go, I'm going to Google it right after we're done to see if there's a name for it. But yes, it's, it's uh, it's a sickness. It's a disease.   Pam Didner: Oh man. Hey, Michael, thank you so much, so much for coming to my podcast and sharing your insight. Love it, love it.   Michael Brenner: Thank you Pam.   Pam Didner: Yeah, that's the least I can do. Um, you know what, I'm going to bring you back in 2021 and obviously with additional clients and additional insight that you see working with them, we will love to hear from you.   Michael Brenner: Love to come back at any time.   Pam Didner: I hope you enjoy the podcast. I'd appreciate that you leave a five star review on Apple podcast or my website, Pamdidner.com. If you think this is useful, please share with your colleagues and friends. I also love to hear from my listeners. So join my Facebook community, Build Marketing Skills to Get Ahead. I'd answer any marketing questions you may have. I mean, any marketing questions you ask? I answer. All right. See you there have a great week.  

"If I only knew then what I know now..." We've all wondered how we would do things differently if given the chance for a do-over. Here's how Rand Fishkin applied the lessons learned from the past to the launch of his new startup, SparkToro. This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, SparkToro Founder Rand Fishkin talks about starting over. Rand rose to marketing stardom as the Founder and CEO of Moz, where he became known as one of the foremost experts on SEO in the world.  When he exited the company a few years ago and founded SparkToro, he reflected on the lessons learned from his experience at Moz to develop a fresh new approach to everything from raising investment funding, to speaking out about issues some might consider controversial and the development of a marketing strategy for his startup. Check out the full episode, or read the transcript below, for details. Resources from this episode: Visit the SparkToro website Get Rand's book Lost and Founder Follow Rand on Twitter Email Rand at rand@sparktoro.com Transcript Kathleen (00:00): Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I am your host Kathleen Booth. And this week I am incredibly excited to tell you that my guest is none other than Rand Fishkin. Welcome Rand. Rand (00:26): Thanks for having me, Kathleen. Great to be here Kathleen (00:28): To say that I'm excited is an understatement. I, this is, I'm just going to throw it out there and this is embarrassing, but I have had a marketing crush on you for a long time. Rand (00:39): Marketing crush. One of the most unusual types of crushing. Kathleen (00:42): I mean, you have to really be a marketing nerd to develop like marketing crushes and I truly have one. So I will just tell a brief story about how and why I developed this crush. And then I'm going to ask you to tell a little bit about yourself. So I, I started reading your content when you were at Moz and I always just loved, loved it for two reasons. One is, it was incredibly substantive. There's a lot of crappy content out there and I've been a marketer for a long time. And I don't like to waste my time with stuff that isn't going to teach me something new. Kathleen (01:17): And I just always felt like I learned something when I read your content, but I loved also your delivery and the fact that you let your personality shine through and you, weren't afraid to be kind of fun about it. And that's what first you know, turned me on to the content you were creating. But then I think what really cemented it was actually when you left Moz and you wrote your book Lost and Founder, I was a business owner for 11 years. I owned a digital marketing agency and I had what I would call a less than glorious exit. You know, there were a lot of failures along the way. I even actually toyed with writing a book. It's the first time I've ever said this to my podcast listeners. I toyed with writing a book called full frontal failure about like how important it is to just own it and put yourself out there and how, like being an entrepreneur is so lonely and nobody talks about the bruises and the, you know, the bad parts and I saw your book and I read it and I was like, Oh my God, this is what I'm talking about. Kathleen (02:18): So it really spoke to me and then you started SparkToro and I was so fascinated and impressed by how you built the audience first. And really again, what putting out incredibly substantive content, I loved everything you did with Jumpshot while it was still available. Anyway, so I mean, I could go on and on and on, but that was kind of my journey following you. And I've always just loved how unflinchingly, honest you are. And the most recent example of that is the amazing blog you put out about why you left Moz's board of directors and, and you've always been a champion of diversity, and I love that it made room for two women of to join the board. So I'm going to stop now, cause this is getting a little awkward. Rand (03:04): No, no. I mean I think what's, you know, what's wonderful, Kathleen is I always felt like the the contributions that I, that I wish, you know, resonated more in the world are exactly the ones you're talking about, right. Transparency around entrepreneurship and around the hard parts of broken relationships and broken systems and you know, work around diversity and equity and inclusion and those kinds of things. And yet, you know, mostly for better or worse, right? Mostly what I'm known for is like, Oh, you really helped me learn keyword research. Kathleen (03:45): Whiteboard Fridays. Rand (03:49): I'm, I'm very grateful and honored to have helped people with those things as well, of course, right. That, that built my career and, and helped build Moz. But I think there are, there are lots of places to get that information and to your point, it, it can be pretty lonely and challenging to find real people telling real stories about the painful and hard parts of work and life and and recognizing what opportunities they've had and which ones maybe they didn't earn. Which, which has certainly been the case with me too. So, Kathleen (04:29): Yeah. And I would add to that and helping other people perhaps avoid some of the pitfalls you did. I love that you shared your term sheet and lost and founder. You know, I, I actually sent that to a friend of mine right after I wrote it. He said he was starting to look at maybe taking on investment. He had a completely bootstrapped, very, very successful software company, but he didn't have a succession plan. He didn't have children who wanted to take over and he wanted to retire. And I said, I have a book, you have to read, read it before you take any investment. And I just think that's, so what a gift to be able to like, pass that on and allow people to, to avoid some of the things that you've had to encounter in your journey. So thank you for that. Rand (05:09): Oh my gosh. I'm honored. Thanks. Kathleen (05:11): Yeah. Well, the big reason other than the adulation I'm pouring on you, that I wanted to have you here was that I, the thing I think is so interesting and what makes me want to ask you like a thousand different questions is that you are somebody who has started and grown a very successful business in Moz and learned a lot along the way and SparkToro's a more recent journey. And you know, we always say like, Oh, if I had only known that, then what I know now, and you kind of had that opportunity a little bit with SparkToro. So that's really what I want to dig into as someone who has been there, done that and seen both the good and the bad of growth and what works with marketing and what doesn't when you decided to start SparkToro, can you, can we, maybe we could start by having you walk me through, what were the lessons you pulled from your earlier experiences to put together? What, in your mind was the plan that would work for a brand new company from a marketing standpoint? Because of course we talk about inbound marketing on this podcast. Rand (06:16): Yeah. let's see. I had a bunch of things that I really wanted to do very differently. And some of those, some of those, I kind of outlined at the end of Lost and Founder, but you know, I wanted to fund SparkToro differently. I knew that I wanted to raise investment because I didn't, you know, to your point around leaving a company and not having a financial exit, right. I didn't have a financial exit from Moz. And so, you know, I needed to I had a nice severance agreement, but otherwise right. Had to start getting income pretty darn fast. And I knew that I wanted to build a company that could be successful, successful, meaning for its employees and its customers and its shareholders be successful for all three of those groups without having to be hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. Rand (07:16): And so the VC model just does not really allow for that, right. It is you know, Moz is a company that got to $50 million in recurring revenue and is considered kind of a, like frustrating mediocre plateau, you know, of a, of a company, because it just won't, it won't go away and die, which would be fine, right. In venture capital world. It's fine. If 98 out of a hundred companies that they invest in die or right. Or could it get to a fast growth rate and North of a hundred million dollars in revenue? That's fine, too. Everything in between is no good. Right. Kathleen (07:56): That's so funny because I feel like if you talk to any startup founder, well, I don't know any, but most 99% of startup founders would say $50 million company. Yeah. Sign me up. Like that sounds great. It's weird. Rand (08:09): And I think almost all of us, in fact, all of us should feel that way, but the venture capital asset class has biased a lot of people to think like, Oh yeah, that's, that's not good enough. And that's pretty, that's pretty dumb, right? Because what we want, what we want as a society and as people, and as human beings who are familiar with how capitalism and economics interact and politics, we should want lots of little companies, right? What makes a sector robust? What makes an economy vibrant is competition and lots of diversity of, of, you know, different companies owning parts of the market and innovating as a result of that. What you absolutely don't want. The last thing you want, if you want a healthy economy and a healthy politic and a healthy sort of income equality you want, you do not want Facebook owning 90% of social media, Google owning 95% of search Amazon owning, you know, whatever it is. Rand (09:16): Percent of e-commerce 50% of e-commerce, right? Those are negative externalities and the results of you know, a sort of system that gravitates toward the most powerful. And that is bad for everybody, right? Bad for entrepreneurs, bad for employees, bad for consumers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. So I knew that I wanted to build a company that could be successful without the forced venture type of outcome. I knew that I wanted to keep the team really small. I don't like building big teams. Casey doesn't either, both of us have worked at, you know, companies that are like at Moz when it was like 20 people and 25 people. That was great. 50 people. Okay. Still, all right. 75, Ooh. I'm not feeling as great about this hundred, 200 plus really I'm not a match for what the kind of working environment that I like. And so, yeah, that was another intentional decision to, to longterm. Keep the team small. We knew we wanted to build an audience before we launched a product. We knew we did not want to launch an MVP. We wanted to launch a very robust sort of impressive product. That would be remarkable to a lot of people. The first time they tried it. So all those things are very different. Kathleen (10:40): Yeah. Let's talk for a minute about building an audience before you build a product. That's something that I'm personally passionate about. I, I spent two years as head of marketing at IMPACT. And I, after I exited my agency, I always said I would never be in an agency again. But I stayed in IMPACT because that was Bob Ruffolo, the CEO, his vision was to build a media company around the agency. And I was like, that is interesting to me and that model was build the audience and then, and then we'll have products we can roll out to them. So it's not exactly what you're talking about, but it's that same mindset of, if you have a really passionate audience, it unlocks so much opportunity. I'm interested in knowing like, how did you go about that with SparkToro? I kind of saw it from a reader standpoint. Cause I think I've read every one of your blogs since the beginning, but maybe explain to my listeners a little bit about why you chose that approach and then how, how you approached it. Because I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding how exactly you would go about doing that. Rand (11:38): Yeah. Yeah. And I did it quite differently than with Moz, right? So Moz was like blog five nights a week you know, try and get traffic to all those posts, try and get good at SEO earn, you know, links to those posts. And then, you know, slowly build up this sort of content and SEO, flywheel and SparkToro was essentially built on the back of what I call social media marketing and digital PR. Right. So I did lots and lots of and continue to do lots and lots of podcasts and webinars and conferences and events and guest contributions and you know, get interviewed for other publications platforms, blogs, media channels, research reports get quoted in news, like all, all that kind of stuff. Right. Essentially leverage the power of other people's platforms because SparkToro, when it launched had none of its own and also leverage the social media platforms that I carried over from us. Rand (12:40): Right. So I didn't, I didn't get to carry it over, like my, you know, my content library and all the search traffic, but I got to bring with me, you know, some of that social media presence and, and that following on like Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram that essentially kickstarted the SparkToro audience and the sort of what, what started as our beta invite list and then became our early access customer list. I think for any startup, for any business that's trying to build its audience and email addresses the most important thing to capture, you know, getting website visits, getting social followers yeah, those are okay. Not, not like a problem or anything, but an email address is so incredibly valuable. You can do so much with those direct communication, you know, broadcast communication. And of course all sorts of, you know, stuff on the ad platforms too. Rand (13:43): So we, over the course of about 18 months, which was essentially the development time, the R and D and testing and beta process for SparkToro we had about 15, 16,000 email subscribers who said like, I want to get notified at launch or like I'm interested in being a beta tester if you'll have us. And that helped us. And even though we launched in April of 2020, like the worst possible time in the last hundred years to launch a company we did manage to get our first, I think almost 150 ish customers via that, that list of folks. Right. Who said, like, I'm interested in what you're doing. And so that platform has done through, you know, social broadcasting. I published probably, I mean, you, you, you read them all. So I think over the course of 18 months, I don't think I published 30 blog posts even right. Fairly small limited number, but I probably did a hundred. Yeah. You know, interviews and conversations on other people's this sort of digital PR approach to things. And I would do that again. I think that's a, that's a great way to play it. I mean, you know, obviously we're having a podcast conversation. Kathleen (15:01): That's very meta. Rand (15:05): Yeah. Which is a little bit of the reason that's so valuable is because when you don't have an audience of your own finding the audiences that are, that potentially will resonate with you and leveraging them from other folks, platforms is a super valuable way to go. It also worked really well because we had that sort of free signup funnel, you know, before launch, it was give us your email address to get notified at launch. And after launch, it was tries searching SparkToro for free, and then, you know, register to create a forever free account. And that that funnel has also been very successful for us. So, you know, I'll be on a webinar, I'll be on a podcast. I'll, I'll do a video live stream or something I did when a couple of days ago. And you could see like the spike in Google analytics, right. Cause lots of people are paying attention to podcasts. We're having a conversation and they're like, Oh, let me go try this SparkToro thing. Right. So it works really well. As long as you've got your funnel optimized for that type of acquisition. Kathleen (16:05): It's interesting that you say, you know, you, you were successful because you essentially identified other people who had audiences and you were able to draft off of that a little bit. I'm going to put a pin in that. Cause then we're going to come back to what SparkToro does. Cause I feel like that's the perfect segue before we get there though. So I want to make sure I understand correctly. You had about an 18 month development period during which the product was not publicly launched. You mentioned you wrote 30, let's call it 30 blogs. In addition to doing your digital PR, I do want to add as the reader, that, that sounds simple, but it wasn't because these were not just opinion pieces or, you know, 10 ways you can write a great subject line. These were blogs that included a lot of original research that you did in conjunction with the Jumpshot data, as well as some real thought leadership around what was happening with Google and, and being able to get clicks in search results. Maybe you could talk a little bit more about that because I do feel like that was one of the reasons that I avidly followed you, was the quality of the information in those blogs was not to be found anywhere else. I couldn't find that information elsewhere. Rand (17:17): No I didn't. Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. So, you know, part of my thesis around building a successful whole marketing flywheel is going and finding a way that you can contribute unique value that your audience cannot get elsewhere. Right. And you know, I've written about this and I talk about it all the time and when you know, startup founders and marketers ask me like, Oh, well, where should, where do you recommend that someone new to marketing start building their their funnel, their channels, their, their, their flywheel. My recommendation is always something you're passionate and interested about somewhere where your customers actually pay attention and somewhere where you can add unique value that no one else is providing. And so this was, you know, this was sort of my stab at what, what can I do uniquely? I had this relationship with Jumpshot. Rand (18:07): I had been using their their data at Moz. I've been really impressed by their click stream data quality. And so I continued that relationship sort of helping them by being a vocal supporter and proponent of their day of using their data. And in exchange, they gave me a bunch of, you know, research time. So they, you know, they had someone super friendly guy named Sean who worked with me on their, on the R and D side of Jumpshot. And I'd be like, Hey Sean, can you pull this data for me? And he'd pull it, send it over, I'd put it into Excel and play around with it and produce some nice looking charts and graphs and publish that and try and try and tease out the interesting bits of like, Oh, here's the distribution of where web traffic is coming from? Like, you know, more than two thirds of all web traffic is controlled by the alphabet corporation, right. Rand (19:00): Between Google and YouTube and Gmail and Google maps and yada yada, yada, that entity was referring more than two thirds of all web traffic to sort of the top. I think we pulled the top 20,000 or so websites. Right. so that feels a little monopoly. Yes. Great. It's sort of, yeah. Sorta dangerous. And then you look at, you know, web search as a whole, and of course, Google at the same time was trying to claim to who was at the attorneys general of the United States who were looking into it from, I think like 40 some odd States, quote your research as part of that. Right. So, you know Congress through what's his name? Congressman David Cellini I think is the, the representative who's looking into an a, on the house subcommittee for antitrust and, you know, they're, they're asking Google, all these questions and Google is giving them these clearly obviously BS lie responses. Rand (19:59): And so I'm able to call that out, right. I'm able to look at the data and be like, Nope, you're lying to Congress. I don't know if there's consequences for that. Apparently there's not, but yeah. Let's not go down that road right now. Cause I'm yeah. If you would like to take away women's rights, apparently it is totally cool to lie to Congress, but, you know but yeah, so being able to call out, you know, Sundar, Pichai, Google CEO, and say like, look, the thing, the thing that you told Congress under oath is provably false. Maybe, maybe Congress wants to do something about that. Right. You know, maybe that's going to come back to bite you in the butt. I hope it does. Cause I, you know, I don't think that's acceptable behavior. And I don't think any of us should, should, should accept that, but, but these are kinds of things, right. Rand (20:47): That it did, it did two things, right? One, it brought a lot of folks like yourself to SparkToro subscribing to the, the blog, paying attention to the publications. And it also helped create in my opinion, a very accurate narrative around how do we, as marketers break free from the duopoly of Facebook and Google, like, can we do other things, other marketing things, can we pay attention to other channels? Can we spend our dollars and time to go find other publications in people and sources of influence that reach our audiences and not exclusively rely on these untrustworthy and potentially risky partners. And that obviously serve SparkToro's interest as well, because fundamentally at the core of SparkToro is I'm trying to solve this problem. Right? The, the reason I created the company is because I'm frustrated with the Google Facebook duopoly. Over-Marketing Kathleen (21:51): Well, let's take a minute and actually have you explain what SparkToro does cause we kind of skip that part in the beginning and I'm gonna make sure we don't completely miss it. Rand (22:01): Yeah. Fair enough. I, I don't love to be self promotional, which is a little, Kathleen (22:06): But I mean it's germane given what we're talking about. I'm the same way, but yeah, Rand (22:09): Yeah. Right. Is that weird? You, you like, you should, that, that's the goal of marketing and you know, Kathleen (22:16): I always say marketers are terrible at marketing themselves. I'm I'm, I've been trying to get a personal website launched for the last two years. And I don't know if it'll ever go live because having to write my own website copy is like the most insane form of torture about myself. Rand (22:33): Open offer. I have been working with a wonderful technical writer. I'm a woman out of the UK on some of our case studies for SparkToro. And she is amazing. If you want someone to interview you and then turn that into your copy, Kathleen (22:47): I will get her name from you because I can't, I cannot write about myself. Rand (22:51): I love working with consultants and agencies. I know that's weird. Like startup founders is supposed to want to build that strength internally. I don't, that's one of the things I did at Moz that like, we always tried to hire instead of work with consultants and agencies. I think that was a really dumb move. At SparkToro I'm using tons of agencies anyway. You would ask, what does the company do? This is very fair. Right? So trying to solve this problem around Facebook and Google's do opoly over online marketing and advertising. And if you're in e-commerce Amazon sort of makes how to try opoly. Essentially what we realized is that the, the challenge comes in when folks are asked to understand where they can reach their audiences outside, they're outside those platforms. So like, Kathleen, if you and I start a new company to sell, I don't know bone broth, we're like, Oh yeah, let's, let's do the, the, the bone broth thing. Rand (23:53): And like, w we'll we'll we'll make lovely stuff and then we'll sell it online. And where do we reach people who are interested in things like, you know, paleo and keto diets, right? Cause that has a big overlap with it. And people who are big into like college enrich foods and people who are big into cooking. I don't know the result though. And where do we, where do we find those communities? Like, okay, I, I know a few recipe websites, but are those the right places or not? And so what you want to be able to do ideally is go find all the people online who are talking about whatever bone broth or collagen or keto diets, or I don't know, maybe you have a big affinity overlap with yoga instructors or something, right? You want to go to those communities, go find those people and then figure out, probably figure out like their home address so that you can break into their house and steal their phone and log into it, right. Rand (24:55): Get their unlock code, log in and then see all the things they were browsing and reading and watching and listening to and following. But of course that's illegal and super unethical. And so the next best thing to do, because surveys and interviews don't work for this. Like that's the way most marketers get this data. That's how I got it before. And it does not work because people just can't. It's not that they don't answer, honestly. It's just, they can't remember. You know, if you ask someone like, Hey, tell me a hundred people you follow on Twitter. What? No, I can't. How am I supposed to remember that? I can tell you maybe like five, Kathleen (25:34): Right? The classic story. When I used to own my agency, I had a client I worked with who said, Oh, we, we train all of our sales people to say, how did you hear about us? And one of the most common answers we get is, Oh, I saw your ad in the Washington post. And my client was like, I have literally never advertised in the Washington post. You know? Rand (25:51): And this, this speaks to another fundamental problem, which we found with a ton of you know, agencies and consultants who would work with businesses. And you, you go talk to the executive team and they'd be like, all right, I want you to get us placed in the wall street journal. Why the wall street journal, like we're selling bone broth here. I golf with our customers every weekend. They read the wall street journal. You get us covered in the wall street journal. Like, no, my friend, I look, you you're getting super biased responses. And like you and your golf buddies, I'm sure do read the wall street journal, but that is not sample size of three. Yeah. Right. And so apart from breaking into people's houses, what the other way to do that? We saw a few really, really smart businesses marketing teams and customer research teams who had their engineers basically take a list of their customer's email addresses, send them through a service like full contact or Clearbit and get all of their social accounts. Rand (26:54): So like, you know, here's Kathleen and here's Rand and here's, Rand's LinkedIn account. And here's his Facebook page of it's public. And here's his Instagram, if that's public and here's his Twitter and here's, Kathleen's, you know, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, Reddit, Quora, Medium, blah, blah, blah. And then they would crawl those social URLs. If they're public and extract all the data, they could like everything that's publicly shared by that person online just like Google. And then they would aggregate it together and be like, okay, our customers follow these social sources. They listen to these podcasts, they're sharing these YouTube channels. They're sharing these articles and websites. Now we can put our data together and go advertise and market in smart ways in smart places. And Casey and I were like, Oh, that's genius. Kathleen (27:44): Amazing. What is incredible? And also, are you kidding? Rand (27:48): You custom built with like three engineers on your team over nine months, this process, just to get that one piece of data. No, that's unfair. We should build that for the whole internet. Right. Let's just build that for everybody. So now you can go to SparkToro and sort of instantly, you know, search for any audience and discover what they read, watch, listen to and follow Kathleen (28:11): It's awesome. And, and I can, I will add, as we go through this conversation, I am a customer currently. I was actually one of your beta users at a different company. So your funnel works because I am the living breathing example of it. But now going back to, so you had 18 months, you created this awesome content. One of the things that really struck me that you said was you partnered with Jumpshot and, you know, they have this data and they assigned a researcher to you. And, and the reason that struck me is that I imagine there are probably a lot of people listening, especially if there are people who are engaging in, in creating a startup who are saying, that's great, Rand Fishkin could do that because he's around Fishkin. And he worked at Moz and people are going to give him anything. Kathleen (28:57): But I think the truth is though that the, at least the, the lesson I extracted from what you said is about partnership. Like if you are somebody who doesn't have a huge following, if you are somebody who doesn't have access to a ton of proprietary data, who out there is in an adjacent space to you, is complimentary, who does. And I mean, I did this in my last job because I worked for a small cybersecurity startup that had like no web traffic. And we put on a, a four day virtual summit on IOT security and the partners we had were unbelievable. Nobody had heard of us, but they had all heard of our partners. And my whole deal was, I'm not going to charge you to be a sponsor. You're going to get a speaking slot. All I ask is that you promote this and am going to put in all the elbow grease, right? Kathleen (29:43): Like I'm going to do the marketing. I'm going to get like 500 people to come to this thing or whatever it was. And I think to me, like, I love that example of Jumpshot because you don't have to be a Rand Fishkin. I think you just have to understand what's in it for the other partner and the fact that you were able to shine a spotlight on their data and give them visibility. You know, there's, there's something for everyone out there in terms of figuring out the right partnerships. So I feel like that's a really valuable lesson. Rand (30:10): Yeah. I was going to say a lot of, a lot of amazing data is public or publicly available. I a guy just emailed me in the, in the SEO space. Jeff, what's his last name? Jeff Baker, I think. And he had put together this study where he analyzed a bunch of SEO tools. It just use their public, like, you know, he subscribed to the free trials or paid for a month of access or whatever. And then like did a big comparison and published it on. He pitched it to search engine land, which is a big publication in the, you know, search marketing world. They accepted it, you know, despite that he didn't, it's not like he had a big history with them. He didn't have a big following previously. He pitched it to them. They published it. He emailed me and was like, Hey, I think you'd be interested in this. Rand (30:51): Would you share it? I was like, yeah, this looks great. And did really nice work here. Right? It's small sample size, but excellent methodology. Sure. I'll share it with my audience. Right. I posted it to Twitter and LinkedIn, it got picked up by a bunch of more people like great, you know, he had no special, you know, relationship previously. I think there's opportunities like that to find unanswered or unasked questions in virtually any topic and field, and then expound on that take advantage of that, that opportunity in the market, underserved opportunity in the market to create unique value that your audience can't find elsewhere. And if you do that even just a few times, you know, I am not talking about publishing every night or every week, you can publish, you know, five times the year and be very successful with this kind of thing. If you become known for providing that source of information, data opinion you know, analysis that is unavailable elsewhere. Kathleen (32:00): Well, and I would also say having a point of view, which is something that you've done consistently on everything. Yep. And this is a, this is something I want to explore just for a minute, because you know, having, having owned an agency, I've talked to so many business owners and, and, you know, heads of marketing having worked at other agencies like hundreds, hundreds over the year, the years. And there's a lot of, I feel like this is the third rail for so many of them. Like there are a lot of people who just firmly believe you don't take a position on anything period. End of story. I am not one of them, I believe in taking positions. But then there's this whole other gray space in between of like how, how firmly can you plant your flag in one direction or the other? Kathleen (32:45): And a lot of business owners get very afraid of offending anyone and then kind of shying away from that. They become, I always refer to it as like the milk toast of marketing. You don't offend anybody, but nobody really likes you that much either. So I would love to hear your thoughts on, because I think I do think it takes guts. You know, and what you take a stand on has to match your personal passions and what you truly believe in because you are putting yourself out and taking risks. So maybe talk through a little bit as the owner of the business, how you thought about this and, and how in your head, you reconcile the risks of taking controversial positions with what you see as the, the kind of things you could gain out of it. Rand (33:27): Yeah. So let's see, I think about this in sort of three ways. I think about it from a an ethics and philosophy sort of perspective. Like, am I a good person? Am I doing good things for the world? Am I prioritizing the goodness that I do for the world over a personal greed, right. Making more money? And if the answer to that becomes no, then I am obviously the definition of evil, right? Evil is not like I'm going to go murder people. You know, like that that's almost never happens almost all evil, at least in our society exists because people trade the courage of doing what they know to be the right thing for money or power or influence. Right. And that there's, that's evil. So I think about it from that perspective and on that vector, this is just an incredibly easy answer, right? Rand (34:28): Like you, you should obviously do it the second way. I think about it is from a marketing and branding perspective, which is essentially what kind, what do I want to be known for recognized for appreciated for what kind of audience do I want to attract? Who do I want to you know, bring to my community and who would I like to keep out of my community? And from that perspective, it, it also is a relatively easy answer, right? Like, I, I want people I'm happy to have you know, what would have been classically called political disagreements on like, well, what should the tax code look like? Or how should we do zoning and you know, a neighborhood or well, what about, what about investments in whatever it is, you know, military versus environmental spending versus regulation on mining, like, okay, those are all political conversations that I think are, are reasonable. And then there are unreasonable political conversations like, well, should we allow blacks and Jewish people to live? That's not a political conversation. Right? I of, that's not, that's just human, right. Rand (35:42): That's not an open for debate conversation. Right. And I think unfortunately there has been a a rash of sort of, well, don't you want diversity of thought and diversity of thought just means a diversity of thought to me is like a look I'd like to be white supremacists and not get criticized for it. And so can we just agree to, let me be like that? No, we cannot agree on that. That is an untenable well position. We're not, I'm not okay with it, so right. I'm I am, I'm happy to turn away those audiences and build a, you know, build an audience around that. That resonates with my perspective. I also think about it from a third perspective, which is what does the structure of the business that I'm building forced me to accept and allow me to work with them. Rand (36:37): And so this was one of another really big reason. I didn't want to raise venture capital because yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. Right. Like in the venture backed world, you do not that you need to be milk toast, but you are absolutely pressured to build a giant market and building a giant market often means attempting to turn off almost no one. Yeah. Right. Attempting to be uncontroversial in a lot of ways. And and I don't think that's a healthy or right thing. I am. I mean, I'll definitely say, I think probably a lot of Americans and a lot of people all around the world who are facing sort of this nationalist, autocratic surge in politics that we've been seeing globally. Right. A lot of, a lot of those folks, a lot of folks are frustrated that like these sorts of issues have become so front of the top of mind for so many people all the time, I, I feel that frustration too, right? Rand (37:43): Like I'm, I am absolutely in the world of, gosh, I, you know, I really disliked a lot of previous administration's policies and like things in the United States, but I never felt like they were going to absolve us of our democracy. And now suddenly we have to worry about that. And that that's very frustrating. I don't like that. So I think that this these sort of three things have guided me towards an ability to say, okay, the structure of my business, the way that I want to attract customers and market to them and the audience that I want to build. And my philosophy and ethics are all in alignment. I don't know that every business owner gets to do that, but yeah, I hope I hope they do because they should. It's absolutely. It's, it's obviously the, the best way to go. I need more people Kathleen (38:38): That hits the nail on the head, because I know I've always said this, like when it comes to taking a position, there's not like any one position everybody should take. I mean, that's where the owner of the company, the founder has to kind of a very much align with them as a person and you are going to attract the people that are naturally attracted to that same position. And so it is, it is interesting, but I think it takes a lot of guts and I really commend you for it. And, and you're right. Yeah. I don't think you could do it if you had traditional investment in your company. Rand (39:09): Yeah. I mean, I certainly could, but it would put me in conflict with some of the goals and expectations. It could create strife and you know, who knows if I would be able to maintain that longterm. I think, you know, as a, as a key example, right. You can see with with Facebook and Zuckerberg, this sort of like and, and Larry and Sergei and Eric Schmidt and Sundar Pichai at Google, you can feel this sort of tension between like, they sort of know what the right thing to do is, but they're really scared about doing it because of fears of a combination of like political interference from, you know, people who's in who's interested is not, and market fears around, you know, where, what their users will do, what their customers will do, and the fact that they have to generate billions of extra dollars of revenue every quarter. Kathleen (40:07): Yeah. Yeah. It's a prison that they've grown into over time. I think. Rand (40:12): Yeah. I mean, we, we amplify that, like there's a lot of, there are a lot of people I'm sure there are people listening to this podcast right now who equate a person's worth with their productivity and their economic entrepreneurial contributions, right. And their financial success. That is a pretty terrible metric of a person's worth, right? Like we all know we should be measuring people's worth in the kindness that they bring to the world around them and the way they build relationships and how they and, and fundamentally all human beings are worth while. Right. All of us have, that's why human rights exists. And, and reducing that to this late stage capitalist model of like, you are how much money you make. That's, that's a bad way to go friends. Kathleen (41:08): And this is why you are widely known as the nicest guy in marketing. Is that, so that is the word on the street. I'm just gonna, Rand (41:16): Or a significant number of people on Twitter who disagree. Kathleen (41:19): Oh, well, there's a significant number of people on Twitter who disagree with everything. So so going back for a minute to, you made a point about digital PR and again, I'm going to just sort of put this through the filter of, there are probably a lot of people who think, Oh, well, that's easy for Rand Fishkin. Cause he's everybody knows who he is so he can get the interview. So any advice for founders who don't have the reputation as to how to go about doing that? Rand (41:47): Yeah. Yeah. So this is an area where I think before you start your company, it is hugely valuable to build up your expertise in a niche and to build up a network as well. Right? So that doesn't have to be through, you know, blogging. It could be through your social channels. It could be through video. It could be through hosting your own podcast. It could be through unique research that you do. It could be through one on one consulting and help that you give people whatever it is, right. But build your expertise and then use that expertise to build your network so that you are known for having that talent and being able to contribute in those ways. Once you do that, then it is so much easier to do all of the forms of digital PR and, and earning amplification getting attention. I cannot recommend it enough, but I think for whatever reason, there's this sort of sense of in the entrepreneurial world. Like I start my company, I build my product and then I figure out how to market it. No, Kathleen (42:52): Oh, backwards. Rand (42:55): That's not how you do it. Right. First, if you build up a community of people who care about the problem you're solving, even before you have the product that solves it, your launch and your growth will be so much easier. Right. So don't, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying this from the perspective of like, yes, I obviously have the privilege of, you know, the 20 years that I spent at Moz building up a, a reasonably sized following in this sort of niche of digital marketing world. But that, that can be a relatively easy, easily achieved, not necessarily the same degree, but easily started down the path of, and you don't need 15,000 people on your email list if you have 1500 or 150, that is still such a better starting point than zero. Yeah. Kathleen (43:41): Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So when you think about the future of SparkToro and where you're going to go from here, what how do you think you're going to grow it moving forward? Is it still the same strategy of digital PR and really great content? Or are you changing anything starting anything new? Rand (43:59): I, so I really, Kathleen, I really desperately want to invest in self hosted self created episodic content. Like what I did with whiteboard Friday at Moz, right? Like a series, probably something with video. Cause I'm reasonably good and experienced with video. Maybe involving a whiteboard too. I don't know. But the what's holding me back right now is, is time and bandwidth and investment dollars. Right. So I know that, you know, if I was going to do something like that, I'd probably want a video producer that's super challenging during COVID just, you know, by for one thing. And it's also a really hard to make the time available when it's just me and Casey working on SparkToro. So I think, you know, it might be next year when we're, you know, able to grow enough, to be able to bring in another hire or to invest in a, you know, whatever a content agency that helps me produce that that content with some consistency. Rand (45:00): But I, I do think that would be a very valuable thing. And even doing that something like once a month, you know, having a monthly episode of a, whatever, 15 to 30 minute video series on topics related to things that are of interest to our audience, that probably would do pretty well. So episodic content I think is, is very under invested in because it's hard to start. It's hard to get the motivation to keep going. It, it generally doesn't, you know, take off immediately. Like it's a, it's a slow burn, slow build process, but it is something we really want to invest in. Kathleen (45:37): I love that. Well, I will watch it when it starts tell me then I'm in the Rand super fan club clearly. Rand (45:47): What I love, I love what I love about it is like the, it almost works like the Netflix model, you know, where you, you see one episode of the show and you're like, Ooh, that was really good. I kind of want to binge watch all of them. Right. And if there's a big catalog, you just get all this engagement and yeah, I'd like that. I think that model has legs. I don't see a ton of people investing in it. So I'd like to do something like that. Nice. Kathleen (46:13): Well, we're going to come up to the top of the hour and I have a thousand more questions I want to ask, but we don't have time for it. So what I'm going to do is shift gears because there are two questions that I ask all of my guests at the end of every interview. And I don't want to end without having the opportunity to find out what you have to say about this. The first one is this podcast is all about inbound marketing. Is there a particular company or individual that today you think is really kind of setting the gold standard for what it means to be a great inbound marketer? Rand (46:47): Ooh. Okay. Kathleen (46:49): You can name more than one if you want to. Rand (46:51): Yeah. I mean, there's a bunch of folks who have been really impressing me lately. Let's see. So I don't know if you follow Melanie Deziel. She wrote a, she, yes. Yeah. Okay. So she writes, she just published, I think earlier this year Content Fuel Framework which I think, Hey, look at that. Hey Melanie, look, I'm promoting your book. No, I, I, I think, I think the world of Melanie she's extraordinary and she just she just keeps contributing in, in such a remarkable ways. I think she's keynoting content marketing world, the digital version, this week. Kathleen (47:30): Wow. That's awesome. Rand (47:31): Isn't it incredible. So amazing stuff from her. I've also been really impressed with, do you follow Nandini Jammi on Twitter? She's @nandoodles. Kathleen (47:43): I feel like I maybe even touched base with her about coming on the podcast. Rand (47:48): Oh, amazing. Yeah. So she is my God. She's so impressive. Like she's kind of my hero. She's she's been working on kind of a, a, a new version of brand safety and advert and helping advertisers save money and optimize their spend away from manipulative and sort of trolling. And I don't know what you would you call it, like sort of non-factual you know, Macedonian creatives. Kathleen (48:24): This is why, so I know her not through the podcast, but I'm in week four at a new job. And my company is, amongst other things, we solve for publishers. We have an anti malvertising software. This is why I know her. Rand (48:40): Got it right. She was one of the cofounders of Sleeping giants. Now she's the co founder of check my ads. And so they, you know, she, but she writes about and talks about all these topics on, you know, national media and and, and online. And she's just extraordinarily smart. I think she, she's a what I would say she's like a very sharp edged person on Twitter. And like many folks, right? She's, she's, she's much more sort of heartfelt and, and a little more, you know, leans into kindness off of Twitter, which, which we probably all do when we're not limited to 280 characters, but I think the world of her I'm super impressed with her work. Sarah Evans from, she's @PRSarahEvans on Twitter. She has a newsletter. She does amazing work in the PR field, especially for early stage companies. Super impressed with her. Yeah. So that's awesome. Kathleen (49:36): I love all of those and none of them have been on the podcast. So I'm going to have to reach out to them now and ask them to come on. Rand (49:41): I have so many recommendations for you Kathleen. Kathleen (49:46): We're going to talk. Second question is the biggest challenge I hear a lot of marketers say they experiences is that keeping up with the changing world of digital marketing is like drinking from a fire hose. How do you personally keep yourself educated, stay up to date on all of these changes? Rand (50:03): I built my own tool for it. I dunno. I dunno if you have checked out, but we have this thing called trending on SparkToro. It's just sparktoro.com/trending. And when you go there, it's basically like the 25 most diversely shared articles, every 12 hours by digital on Twitter. So we essentially just built a little system, you know, where people OAuth their account, their Twitter account, into the trending tool. It's free. It's not like part of our paid package or anything, but yeah, like, I don't know, seven or 800 marketers every day, read, trending, and check it out. And so, yeah, it's fun too cause people reply and be like, Oh, so cool. Our article was on trending today. Rand (50:51): You can get traffic from it. And you can, you can go there once a week or once a month and click the, like, what was the most shared article this month, this week, any given day. And that has been super useful. Like really it helps Casey and I just kind of stay on top of everything going on in digital marketing world. With very little effort, like we don't have to scroll through a bunch of feeds. We can just like, Oh, all right. That one looks interesting. That's cool. Kathleen (51:20): So it takes the firehose and turns it into a little garden hose for people. Rand (51:24): Exactly. Kathleen (51:25): I love that. Yeah. well we are now coming to the top of the hour and so unfortunately we're going to need to wrap it up. If people are listening and they have questions for you want to follow you or connect with you, learn more about SparkToro, what is the best way for them to do that? Rand (51:42): Sure. So my email address is rand@sparktoro.com. I'm pretty fast on email. I am most active on Twitter where I'm @Randfish. And if you are interested in trying SparkToro for free forever, it sparktoro.com. Kathleen (51:57): Awesome. All right, there, you have it. We, we could go for 10 hours, but we only had one. If you enjoyed this episode, as much as I did head to Apple podcasts or the platform or your choice, and I would love it, if you would leave the podcast a review because that's how other people find us. And if you know someone else who's a kick ass inbound marketing person, tweet me @workmommywork because I would love to interview them. That is it for this week. Thank you so much, Rand. This was amazing. Rand (52:25): Great to be here. Thanks for having me, Kathleen.

Subscribe: Let us do the hard work and send the podcast to you: https://bit.ly/2NZjODA  Review: Share the love and leave a 5* review from your phone: http://getpodcast.reviews/id/1375904962 (from anywhere else hit the ‘Write a Review’ button in the Apple Podcasts app or iTunes) Guest: James Perry (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesperryaccountingsuccesscoach/) Topic: Marketing and Finance Discussion Points Guinness!! Irish history Personal branding Financial education Professional marketing qualifications Importance of practical experience Link to the live video:https://www.linkedin.com/video/live/urn:li:ugcPost:6712752394180075520/ Enjoy the Episode - Happy Marketing! Website Thingy: www.marketingstudylab.co.uk The Professional Bit: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petersumpton/ Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/marketingstudylab/ Tweet Tweet: https://twitter.com/cousinp81 Transcript (this transcript isn’t 100% accurate but provides a decent representation of the conversation – soz for any confusion)   Peter Sumpton  Hello and welcome. My name is Peter Sumpton, marketing consultant and Lego master of marketing and you're listening to the marketing study lab podcast live. Well, this bit isn't live, but the rest of it is. You'll hear a bit about that later. I mean, now, let's crack on. These episodes are taken from my live show marketing and where we look at the relationship between marketing and a specific topic. Subject or specialism, sometimes there'll be guests other times it'll just be me. So let's get cracking Okay, fantastic. Live live live love it. And I am so delighted to be joined today for this little chat with Mr. James Perry. James How are you doing?   James Perry  I'm good Peter. What about yourself? Thank you for having me.   Peter Sumpton  No problem. I'm doing pretty damn well to be fair. Yeah, all is good big workshop today. Hang on one second. Yeah, just a bit of technical difficulty there Yeah, I did a workshop today that had loads of people in it which is absolutely fantastic all engaged all interested in in marketing and the theory and about how you build a marketing plan and stuff like that so I can't complain sunshine and I think it's a bit cold outside but who cares? This isn't a weather forecast. So we don't really care Believe it or not, the weather is lovely here. It's not cooled   James Perry  and we're in the north of Ireland here which is all we get out.   Get out that's not Peter like I say to people the London for Ireland this Hibernia which meant which means the land of water so I   Peter Sumpton  see now you're gonna have to come back on because I don't know enough about islands and I don't know how I'm going to link it to marketing but there's bound to be some way and your knowledge of marketing and marketing your knowledge of Island and the history is on real so yeah, we're gonna have to link that in some way shape or form I'm not sure how but like well   James Perry  here we go. One of the biggest brands in the world is Irish.   Guinness   Peter Sumpton  well see that's why I invite you on you just keep me in check and make me look fun cuz I'm   James Perry  brought on brand Ireland and I brand Ireland. For a country is incredibly strong. hoka high kind of country an island of 6 million people get every person in the water to celebrate Irishness on one particular day. Or Patrick's Day.   Peter Sumpton  Thoughts marketing at its finest. That is that is brilliant. That isn't how I thought we'd start today. But yeah, let's let's carry on down that route. Yeah, absolutely. Bang, right. Like, like what what Guinness Do you know, they are the antithesis of a heritage historic brand, which keeps transforming what they do from a Marxian perspective yet keeping that history. And those those brand qualities of the the, the white top, the black Guinness, that the iconic glass, that the only company I know that can create an advert about water, and not even mention what they actually sell what they actually do and that you should drink something else other than Guinness and then publicise it, I mean, just amazing stuff.   James Perry  The way that the company was find it, so there's finally over 300 years ago by Arthur chemists who signed this is true, a 9999 year lease on some chambers get   free, because that's one of the sources of Dublin mountain water.   Peter Sumpton  But that's not   James Perry  how they get the symbology as well, Peter, which odd stir brown the heart, the heart is the Brian baru ARP, okay, Brian brew was was an ancient Thai king of Ireland. And even that is symbolic. So you know exactly   what they're doing in terms of their branding.   Peter Sumpton  Well, but that's again, Irish knowledge come into the front. They're not only Irish, but marketing knowledge. Marvellous. And that's what that's what we're all about. I absolutely love it. We'll probably come back to that if we get a little bit bored later on.   James Perry  But we never get bored by Fred. We never get bored.   Peter Sumpton  Well, that is that is very true. That is very, very true. But let's try and stick to half an hour slash four or five hours. I think the mcse live you can go is four hours or something I can't remember. Anyway. That's Mike's it. Right? Okay. Let's go on to a few more serious elements. And then we'll come back to the Guinness stuff and all that kind of stuff. So let's start with your background, a little bit of information about yourself what you do and what you're all about right now. So everybody knows that, what we're what we're going to chat about and how amazing you are.   James Perry  Well, I'm a chartered accountant by profession, accountancy has always been been in the blood Peter so degree in accounting master's degree in accounting and worked for a firm called Grant Thornton for 10 years sort of bigger global firms was an associate director with them, then I moved in tend to stray from not even quarter of wkd, another another alcoholic drink Kima Francia controller with them. Then I left and went to the government, I was the government for government rule for four years, again, as a financial controller on then things happen in life where I had to take a career break, which then pushed me and to starting a company or a business called the cutting success coach, which is my main thrust in terms of LinkedIn and in terms of my, my own business with without, which is to coach accounting students on their exams, and also up and coming accountants and seasoned finance professionals through career development. So that's the main business, I am also a part time teacher, a teaching fellow with the University of Ulster as well. And teaching accounting. So that's my background is all pure accounting.   Peter Sumpton  Cool, excellent. And in a bizarre way, that's kind of how we met with your pure accounting background, my pure marketing background, we're both in the educational field, we both teach marketing, and finance professionally. So it was just really good connections. And the more we spoke about both, the more we realised, from an educational point of view, and just purely departmental, that the links and the synergies between both of them were, were unreal. And then we got chatting about that, and a whole host of other things we've got in common, but let's not mention that Liverpool, the champions of the world, and pretty much champions of everything, shall we? We'll just stick to the marketing and finance on   James Perry  our head is the greatest company ever.   Peter Sumpton  forgot about that? Yeah. God. Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic.   James Perry  You're You're definitely like in the synergies in both marketing on the coating, stroke finance, especially when it comes to getting a professional qualification, look, and examine assignment as an examine assignment, albeit a different topic. And the approaches, in my opinion, are very, very similar. So opposite. That's where we had thought that definitely the professional thing in common as well. Yeah. And we've both been there and Donna disposers, which the thing?   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, that's very true. And I remember speaking to somebody it was on it was on a, another podcast. And they were saying that I can't remember what field they went into. But they went to a university, and sat down in a bid business lecture. And the professor started talking. And he said, Can you give us an example of this, like, that you've been part of? And the professor said that will No, I've never been in business. I only know it academically. And the guy actually walked out. Because he's like, Well, you can't, I want to be successful in business. And there's only so far that I can go with you teaching me from an academic standpoint, if you haven't got any historical, practical application that I can learn from them. This isn't for me. And same with yourself and me. We've we've lived it with breathed it. And I think a lot of people don't give enough credit for the fact that it's all about storytelling. Marketing is all about storytelling, and we gauge with stories and people don't give enough credit for. Okay, this is the theory. But this is what happened to me, or this is a prime example of where it went wrong, or this is what we shouldn't do. Because we've I don't think people give enough credit for that.   James Perry  Absolutely not. If you can live and breathe, what you're teaching someone or what you're coaching someone that really adds a lot to it. I don't think I would have as much gravitas or could help as much if I was a part qualified accountant. I couldn't do that. Because I have sort of I qualified first time with everything. backgrounds always been in the profession. In terms of career, I got to see it very piscean monitored quite early. On no coming the other way with yourself. You know, we're taking the entrepreneurial and started starting on business and doing everything that comes along with that. And I think we're both in the right areas to help others. And I think that's a mean thing to Peter. You know, my endgame is I'm not enough to create the next generation because I'm not. Okay. What I am about, though, is to help people live the life that they want, by getting a world class professional qualification. And by doing things that I learned to, to sort of prepare yourself career forward and live your life you want. That's what I'm all about. And I mean, I'm in this to have a lifestyle business. So that's why I want to teach people how to do that.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree from a slightly different standpoint, I think the thing that's missing academically, both marketing and on finance, from what I understand from what you've told me, is the fact that we see it as this, I get this qualification, then then I can do finance, I can do marketing, people will employ me I become employable. Yes, it helps, yes, you get a foot in the door. But what happens when things go wrong? You can't necessarily rely on what you've you've kind of learned, you need that practical experience. And what you said there was really interesting about end game, then why do you want this qualification and some people just want qualifications, because it shows them they can do what they can do, which is fantastic and great. not denying that at all. But others just want it for to progress in their career as well. And, yes, it might help to a certain level, but then I feel there's a lot missing that people don't talk about. For example, when I when I talk, there's the academic marketing, and then there's the real life marketing, the very, very similar, they both need to fit. But sometimes to get that qualification, you need to talk in a certain way. Whereas in real life, you would do things slightly different. It's not the same in in finance.   James Perry  In terms of theoretical versus practical, huh?   Yeah, yes.   Give me a quick example of that. One of the top one of the topics that people find very difficult than a coding is if you're doing an auditing exam, especially if you've never worked in auditing. So if you work and you're doing someone's a concert, if you're working in a tax department, you will find it incredibly hard to relate to auditing. But because I worked in auditing, I could relate to it. And that's something I can help people with a lot. Okay, but there's a massive difference between what it says in the books or what actually happens in real life. You know, what I mean? So there is a very, very different practical element to it. And I suppose, and my coaching, Peter, I very rarely talk accounting. What I what I do talk as though was with the practical applications of that accounting, because people can go and get all the material and learn from a learning provider, but I helped to apply that amount to different thing. Different things all together. And then especially with career development, you can read all the books in the world about career development, unless you unless you've done something, or you can talk to someone who's made all the mistakes like me, you know, shock when you learn about respect as well. So did a massive difference sometimes between theory and practice? Absolutely. But sometimes you have to know your theory before you do the practice.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, yeah. And and, and that, that is the crux of the matter, there were the first live that I did with with Dr. I, we were talking about education and all that kind of stuff, and saying that it's hugely important to know that this theory, but theory alone, wouldn't necessarily get you through life, depending on what you wanted to do. And it is that that application, whereas if you flip it, and you've got no theory, then you're very, very fortunate if you can craft a career of any substance within a certain field, if you don't have that foundational level. And I'm presuming, like to my, my thoughts on on on finance, and that kind of area is that I wouldn't trust anyone that hadn't got a financial qualification to do my finances. I you know, just just wouldn't be in the same respect. If I went to a chartered accountant, then I probably want them to have X amount years of experience, rather than being that that fresh out is out of qualification. Do you think do you think once you've got a qualification, you are ready to take on the world? Or what? Let me rephrase that. What are the things that aren't taught? So you just pass the exam? What are the things that aren't taught that might hit you in the face when it comes to reality?   James Perry  One thing one point will make actually believe it or not, and it's it is a point for debate within the profession, is that you can call yourself an accountant or not be qualified. Okay. Right. You can actually believe it or not, and some of the best accountants that I know aren't qualified, and then not times that I tell them to get on the horse. get qualified is crazy, because it's adds so much credibility. credibility. So that's the first point in terms of the next bit. If someone has just qualified and they've got the accounting qualification, what I would tend to suggest is that they get that they stay with it where they are for perhaps a year or so or two. I don't know if it's the same in the marketing profession, but it's one or two years of what we call post qualification experience and accounting. And that normally is where you learn a lot of things. So there are a lot of people who perhaps qualify, say, in a coding practice, or within industry, perhaps, and I would say, stay where you are on and learn. Because that's, especially if you're going to go into senior management. And one thing that happened to me, Peter, was that I went that this was quite an extreme route. I went from being just newly qualified, straight into a senior management role. And I wasn't, I wasn't the manager, I wasn't manager, I was mid senior manager, I was promoted incredibly quick. Okay. And I was basically said, durscher portfolio of clients, go and figure it all out. Right. That's what I was taught. So I had to sink or swim. And I learned the hard way. No, that was when I was 10 or 12 years ago, and you'd like to think there's a bit more of a change, and I with proper coaching and things like that. So what I say to someone who is newly qualified, is this one to two years post qualification experience, and get a mentor or a coach. Absolutely, yeah. Because I've said, I've made all the mistakes. I was the one who didn't Dalit didn't know how to delegate. I was the only had this trinkets Knights. I was the one who was made stuff monitor at 20 it with all my mates, I was then their boss, I made every single mistake in the book. So get a mentor who's been there?   Because I tell you what not to do, you know?   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, that is very true. And although we learn from our mistakes, there's some mistakes you just don't want other people to make and others, you almost feel like they've they've got to learn from those mistakes. And that's not to say that, okay, well, well, you can come in work for me or I can be your mentor. But I'm going to let you screw up. It's not that at all most will. This is my experience, but you probably better experience in it for yourself.   James Perry  Absolutely. You have to you have to walk work and run.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, yeah. So just to go back to the question, is it the same in in marketing, so what I would say, for anybody that's looking for a career in marketing, slightly different, the approach that I would take is that I would say, Don't jump to any particular position. Don't go for any particular job, look at look at the company, look at how they operate, look to see if they're marketing orientated, or whether they're sales focused, or production focused, because you will have a very, very different working life. If you work for a company that's marketing orientated, you will learn a shedload more than you will if they are sales focused, because what will probably happen is that you will be more comms based, and you will be more admin based at the very start. Whereas if it's marketing focus, yes, you'll have the admin functionality, because you're at the bottom of the ladder, but it will be marketing, it will be focused. So you'll get involved in product, you'll get involved in price place, you're getting definitely involved in the communications, because that's kind of what anyone sees nowadays is just the comms in marketing. And I think that's an issue we've got to face. But yes, slightly different to what you would say in finance. My advice would be more about think about the company, and what they can offer in terms of your education in marketing.   James Perry  It's funny, even as you say that,   whenever I was in the industry, and then in the business, once I left the ground floor, marketing was always seen as the sexy thing. Whereas finances, that's the boring thing, okay. But one thing I would say about accounting, if you are an accountant, is to go and talk to everyone else. Go on talk to the marketing department and sales department because what tends to happen or something that people have to realise is that accounting or the finance department is the eyes and ears of the entire business. Therefore, you have to pop relationships with marketing, CS, operations, Treasury, whatever that means. Be. So that's one thing that any marketing students are out there and you're with an industry, go and talk to your accountant Scott, talk to finance. Go and because remember, you're one organisation, it's not, am I that sometimes happens, where departments in a certain in one business think that they're competing they're competing or not? Yeah, that's one thing I learned massively. And accounting, I believe the term of content will be no longer and five years, we will be called business partners. That's what I believe will be called. Okay. That's because the numbers will take care of themselves through AI and blockchain. So we have to actually get off our seats and go talk to people. That's, that's what's happening. So that's where marketing and finance will really coexist.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, it was a topic that I wanted to raise with you Really? What What can what can marketing ask finance and what can finance learn or understand how that relationship with marketing but completely agree like, across their whole business, similarly, within marketing, that the fact that you need to be involved in pricing, so you kind of want to talk to the finance department to see if you're profitable or not, you need to be involved in in the product. So technical, technical, and r&d and stuff like that. And the same for finance, you know, r&d, you could spend an absolute fortune on r&d and not get anywhere. But if you've got that financial backing to say, well, these are our pinch points, you can take it that far before we need to do this, we can rely on this product for that income, then, you know, the world is a better place. And I love the fact that you just said we're one company and we work in silos some some times and that is a really, really sad thing. Just Quick, quick comment. Will to actually from from Connor, he says, Yeah, the company can teach you so much. But love this one. loving this first time are tuned in. So I'm guessing that's because it's the first time you've tuned in and you just looked out with James Perry being my guest. So   James Perry  I would have a guest Connor. Okay, if you hop off the hop and Irish connection, there   Peter Sumpton  is balance. We can't connect, let us know. Yeah, absolutely. And if you if you've got any Irish history related questions, now's the time. Now's the time to ask them. Just Just on that, just to say, if anyone has got any questions about marketing, and finance, marketing, or finance and how they coexist, or how they work together, you know, please, please do speak up happy to take them on board. So just going back to that question, from your point of view, from a finance perspective, what would you want to know from from marketing to so we can coexist?   James Perry  The first point, if anything, with marketing or than any other department, the first, the first thing that always happens at the start of the year budgeting? Yeah, okay. This is with a bottle of normally. But again, it's having conversation. So if you are a head of marketing, if you're a head of thought sort of department, again, is not to try not to sit on your laurels and going, oh, we're going to get 5% on top of last year's budget, that does not work anymore. First thing is you need to go and talk to each other. And on the terms of finance, Peter, our terms of marketing, especially, it's gonna be very topical night because my farts bring in business with with the the recession and the depression living. What's the first thing to go? marketing budget is cost. Yep. Okay, so that's all the conversations that may need to be hard. Because the other school of thought is that whenever markets are low, or whenever the economy is low, that's the time you need to promote. That is the time you need to invest. So there's so it's actually really topical the conversations that should be compared to marketing finance right now. Hmm.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, I agree. So if if anybody and I'll put a link in the comments after this because after find out my phone, but Mark Ritson at marketing professor, and consultant, he wrote an article that was published today, and it was talking about sales funnels and stuff like that. But one of the examples he gave was, and I can't remember the company, but an insurance company in Australia, and basically, the final, not the financial officer, sorry, the marketing officer. He doubled down on his advertising within this period, but he did it from from a branding perspective, as well as a sales perspective. So what he did, he went to finance and said, Look, I need more money because of this. And he explained it and what they did was they had this this when no one was advertising. They put all their money into advertising. So they got huge search. Advice. And then what they did, they had these small mini campaigns, where it was a case of we know times are tough. So here's 10 Australian dollars a month to insure you for fire, theft and damage. And that was the short term tactic. And it just worked on believably well, and he gives some stats in that article. And it was just a perfect example of knowing the marketing, but also knowing to talk to finance and saying, look, this is the state that we're in. But through what I know and what I understand we need to invest in you can't really do that without your finance department being on board.   James Perry  Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's really interesting you say out too, because even from a personal marketing standpoint, bronze, Peter Brown, James. And I was actually on a course today and the question that I put out there was in the world of all this personal branding and personal marketing, I dare How can you make yourself stand out? And it's similar business and similar, similar personal, the same personal was your grant because of your Lego? Right? That makes you stand out? I probably stopped it because I'm the most on stereotypical thing. Right? I am. I like to think I'm not boring at all. I've got a personality. But I thought that was a really great question that was posed today. So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna be somebody who fires a question back to the host. What can people do? Or what can businesses do to make themselves stand out from the crowd in today's climate?   Peter Sumpton  I mean, I think you've hit the nail on the head with with Lego. Here I am, just for anybody that hasn't seen rowing. There we go. That was the fella. So yeah, I think it's being being memorable or being known for one thing, who you are, and being true to that over a consistent period of time. So unfortunately, nowadays, we live in an economy and that now economy, like I ordered something from Amazon ATM yesterday morning, and it was supposed to arrive before 10pm, the same day it didn't. But I've done that previously. And it has it's arrived the same day. And that is just not it was an extension lead. And it's like, how are you making money off that? So anyway, so be known for one thing, if you want a really good book to read, and a big shout out to john esperion. It's called content DNA. And what he says in that, he says that, you should have kind of three things that everything you do gears around. So that could be and I haven't nailed mine down. So I'm giving advice, and I'm trying to follow it. But I'm not 100% there yet. I'm still playing around with a few things. So so mine, my non negotiables are Lego, helpful, and witty. So everything you see from me should be either all those three things, or one of those things. If it's not, it's not me. And so to build a personal brand, it needs to be individually, you and there's only one of you. Now, the problem you've got James, you're in a great position, because like you say, if if you said, Peter, what do I do? And I hadn't met you. There's no way I would guess what you do. So you being you stands out in your marketplace. Now, if you didn't, I would say become known for a particular thing. So whether that's you wear a bow tie, whether you are a flat cup, whether you have a catchy strapline, whether you do all those things, it's about being consistent. And I don't care how dry or boring or on entertaining somebody thinks they are. They will appeal to a certain demographic, and don't focus on everyone. Even Harry Potter doesn't appeal to everybody. So if you if you're looking for 1000 likes and to please 1000 people forget it. If you're looking to please 1015 people out of the thousands, you're on the right lines. So that's what I would say be known for the right things but make it you because the one thing you don't want is to build up this personal brand of I'm James I'm always I'm always funny, always witty, I know loads of Irish history, and then I meet you, and you know nothing about Ireland, and you're just dull and boring. And I'm like, well, you're not the person I thought you were and and the one thing I would say it's actually in this book, a quote from me, although I didn't originate the quote, but a brand is a promise. And that's the same For individuals, so when I'm talking to you, James, you've promised me that you will be engaging, you will bring your your financial knowledge, you will bring your Irish knowledge, you will be true and honest and open. And if you weren't that, I just be like, well, something's wrong here. And that's who you are. So stay true to your brand and be known. Yeah, so don't break that promise, either. And if you've been false, you'll end up breaking that promise.   James Perry  The there are two things, and one I have actively worked on. On the two things that are your superpowers. One is sleep, right? Sleeping that the part I tell my students that I'm not joking that folks, if you don't have your sleep sorted, get it sorted. Hmm. Second one is consistency. And that is the super part that I neglected for a lot for a long time. So why would have been especially on LinkedIn for my own business, I would have been up here, massive peak post and stuff stopped doing well. And then you go into that truck, and you go into that trough of God, I'm not getting too many likes or follows around. But that's a self fulfilling prophecy, because he don't post you're not going to get them anyway. To be perfectly honest, Peter likes and all that sort of stuff of comments isn't necessarily my metric anymore. Because of to try and get clients and to get eyeballs on my posts. So few use engagement, DNS in the background, having really good conversations with people. What I want to get from this, but I have solved the problem. Now I've got a VA. So I have got over the last couple of years, and the intermittent posting, I'm creating content, I maybe have two or three years with content on my laptop, and I went to my VA and I went just you go nuts. which gives me that platform of consistency. Mm hmm. It's an education piece swept to educate her, where I want her to go with it. Now she's, I could say, just slightly more creative than me, in some ways, now quite creative in other ways. But it also gives me the scope to engage, it gives me the scope to have those conversations with people in the background. And that's something so another tip I would give anybody out there is that given consistency is your shipper part of whichever discipline, if you're not going to be so good at a time source that because it's really, really important. And that's something I've learned massively, you know, I have probably over the last six months been more successful than I have last financial year on it probably factors are probably about it. It is because I've been much, much more consistent over the last six months.   Peter Sumpton  So and I suppose that that's one thing that a lot of people take for granted. So a lot of people that class themselves have influences or whatever you want to call them. You see them a lot, you see them over a consistent period of time. And that is because they're consistently posting, they're consistently on a particular platform, and you get to know them. And that's exactly what you were just saying there. It's it's all about the consistency and using a VA i think is a great idea. And I'm toying with the idea right now. And I just think that I'm so glad you went to say that, you know, it's a bit of a learning curve, because the one thing you don't want to do is outsource and then you lose you. So I'm guessing in terms of the engagement and the conversations you have that is still you it's just the consistency is being helped with having this other person do the ad mini side of being consistent. And I was very lucky who I got from my VA so I have tried and busted   James Perry  our trading task division say a number. But what I do personally is nothing business related as myself on a friend on another young lady. I've got a podcast on we have just we thought we talk rubbish   Peter Sumpton  grin and bear it   James Perry  up grunenberg with Rebecca right so Rebecca is nine my VA on that's where I've been quite lucky. Okay, so Rebecca knows me personally, she knows that I'm like she is she creates movies. She has written a novel. She's not even 25 yet. She adds fantastic in the way she thinks she's very creative. And I went okay, Rebecca, you can kill two birds with one stone here. I am creative. But I'm quite logical in the way that I think. Can you help me paint more of a story about me, but also takes the burden off me to actually have it done on my business at the same time? And I said, Look, I'll pay X amount a month. Yeah, no problem. And that has been one of the best moves either For me, I have I have paid people who don't know me, I have paid. And I just been quite lucky that that has happened for me. But it still is an education process and I will be a continual process. You know, I've noticed that the quality, my deliverable to my posts and my graphics, on even the blurb and the wording of stuff in LinkedIn is infinitely better than what it was a year ago. So again, it has evolved through maybe as help as well. So definitely get people on site that will help you because we're not going to be great at everything we can't be.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, that that is one fable, if that's the right word it within marketing, it's that. And I'm pretty sure anyone in lighting will will agree that that you have to be excellent at everything. And people expect you to be excellent at everything. So not only do you have to know the ins and outs of LinkedIn, but then you also have to know how to set up and design a brochure or a trade publication. And then you know, you need to know the printing process and the difference between CNY K and RGB and the different types of paper and because you're in marketing, and it's just, it's not true, because you cannot you cannot understand everything. It's It's nuts. Is that kind of similar in a way to to finance or it.   James Perry  Yeah, okay. Peter, people come to me and ask about tax all the time I have in my life, not a tax return.   Peter Sumpton  I asked you as well, like,   James Perry  I don't know, I don't even do my own. MIT does it for me. The reason why that was is because I can draw up my own company kind of not a problem. But my specialism in a bright trend was audit. So I used to go into other companies and audit their books to verify that were recalled true and fair. And basically reasonable. And I was I was a damn good auditor. And then whenever I went into industry, I drew up the books off Wk to either drink or I stabilised the finance team. And then I write and talk to the rest of the business. So I, for example, will not look at pensions or tax or anything like that. People come to me because I'm an accountant, automatically thinking that I know but that might though.   Peter Sumpton  Right? So many synergies there.   James Perry  Absolutely. Is the probably the same in marketing. There's so many but you're specialised that. And there's some areas that are not. And that's the reason why in some of these big organisations, like it's so many different departments. So for example, Grant Thornton are known as chartered accountants, but you've got departments for everything. You know, so I'm not the reason why, you know, you can be, you can be what jack of all trades and Master of None. Yeah.   Peter Sumpton  And there's loads of things to pull from that and discuss really, and I'm just conscious of time, but that's all. But there's no way we could we could break the timer. But they talk about that the T shaped marketer, so you've got a good grounding in all disciplines. And then you focus a speciality on one or maybe two. And that's fine. But the one thing I would say to that is that everyone's different, and everyone's unique. And don't be pigeonholed into one thing or another, unless you want to be a specialist in that area. If you want to be a specialist on PPC, on SEO, fantastic, brilliant, and then maybe branch out into other areas on no other areas of marketing. But if you want to be an all round marketer, I think you need to know and understand a lot. But think more strategically, because that's the bit that's missing the strategy element within marketing we all go for the tactic, we all go for the cons, we all go for the video, and the editing behind that and content creation and stuff like that. But it's the strategic element because all that content creation is great. But like you said with consistency, not only do you have to show up consistently, but you have to have a consistent message which again goes back to your personal brand and be known for particular things. So for example for you James, I know that if I see a post that is that is black, and I don't know what political it at turquoisey blue, it's   James Perry  it's the colour of the colour and the ripples on the shirt.   Peter Sumpton  That's where they got the colour from. I wondered that brilliant, I love it. But yeah, it's those two colours, then I know it's going to be James Perry, and it's going to be talking about accountancy. And because that is you've been consistent over a period of time with those colours. One if you want to check out anybody that does that unbelievably well. There's a lady on LinkedIn. She's very prominent LinkedIn called Mary Henderson. Her colours are pink, black and grey on real Everything you see is pink, black and grey every time I see something that's pink, I just think Mary Henderson's post. Transcribed by https://otter.ai Main Intro Music Featured on this Podcast:Intro 1N15 Setuniman http://www.setuniman.com/ Creative Commons License

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on WTAG this morning with Jim Polito.  We got into a lengthy discussion about some new malware - a trojan that is targeting Trump supporters, specifically.  Then we briefly hit on 5G. Here we go with Jim. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Peterson: [00:00:00] There is a word document attached to that malicious email. That malicious email has in it, in that word document, something called malware. One of the nastiest pieces of malware out there. They're forwarding political information relevant to Republicans.  People are targeting Republicans. Hi everybody. Craig Peterson here. Yeah, that was me on with Jim this morning. We went into quite a bit of detail about this Trojan malware. It's an interesting discussion here. Why is it coming out? What are they saying? What are their subject lines? What's it going to do to you?  Why is it targeting Republicans? So here we go. Jim Polito: [00:00:47] Here he is, Oh, everybody waits for Craig Peterson and this is going to be an important visit today. We're going to talk about malware. If you are a Trump supporter, kind of a Trojan horse out there. Well, we'll get to all of that, but first, let's welcome him aboard. Craig Peterson. Good morning, sir. Craig Peterson: [00:01:09] Hey, good morning.  I've got another little granddaughter who was born just this last week and her parents are both captains and they sent a picture of this little baby girl in a captain's outfit. Jim Polito: [00:01:23] Now that is that's worthy of a wonderful congratulations there, grandpa again. Craig Peterson: [00:01:34] Thanks.  I've got 8 kids and I've only got six grandkids. These millennials what's with them.  Yeah, yeah, Jim Polito: [00:01:39] yeah.  Craig, they're just not, I mean,  I finally am going to be a grand or great uncle, whichever way you choose to say it. Yeah. These millennials, come on. Come on, guys. Listen. Well, listen, before we get to this. I've got to tell you something, that'll make you feel old or it'll fascinate you. Today. The first cell phones were made available for sale commercially in 1983. They were ridiculously expensive. There weren't a lot of towers, but they were for sale. Craig Peterson: [00:02:16] Yeah, the big bricks. They were really. Oh, you remember those? I was so jealous when those came out. I've been a ham radio operator. I have an advanced class amateur radio license and land mobile was the thing back then. Right? So you'd have this huge antenna on your car. You drive around and almost could listen to you as you're driving. Now came cell phones, which had a modicum of privacy on them. They were so small compared to the land mobile things. And now  I've got a cell phone on my wrist. This is like big, crazy time. Jim Polito: [00:02:49] It is. It's too cool. It just goes to show you, where will we be four decades from now?  I'll probably be dirt napping, but anyway, Where were we? Where will we be? Alright, Craig, I've got to talk to you about this, cause it really caught my attention. A piece you sent me about Trojan malware targeting Trump supporters. This is something that a good portion of the audience wants to hear about. Craig Peterson: [00:03:18] Yeah,  I thought you might be interested in this one and for everybody, this will come in my newsletter on Saturday. So make sure you're subscribed to that newsletter so you can get this. There is a Trojan right now that's being circulated and it's targeting just Trump supporters. I might ask, how does that happen? Right. It's not like the virus only targets people in the white house and Republicans. Well, actually, maybe it does.  But anyways. The way it works, is they are sending emails that are actually forwarded emails from these political action committees that are pro-Trump. These attackers are forwarding perfectly legitimate emails. It has legitimate links in it that you can click on right to that political action committee.  You can just look at and you think, Oh, it's great. The subject line says forward, and it's got the subject or maybe re the subject.  Those are both things that people have is clues. Hey, this is an email you want to open. The problem with this is it's entirely Republican PAC. That they are targeting that they're forwarding to people and there is a word document that's attached to that malicious email. That malicious email has in that word document, something called malware. One of the nastiest pieces of malware out there. They're forwarding political information that's relevant to Republicans. There are people really targeting Republicans. Jim Polito: [00:04:58] There you go. How do you argue with that? That's shall we say fact? Craig Peterson: [00:05:07] Right. Its science. I believe in science. It's just, I believe in my science, this is very obvious, right? The researchers are calling it like a Wolf in sheep's clothing. Well, here's what Emotet does once you get it.  Emotet is a Trojan. It's been around a long time. They use what's called a spear-phishing technique and they have for a long time. So they try and coerce you into opening up by putting something in the email that's of particular interest to you. Then once you've opened that word document and that malware is on your computer and it starts to spread. It actually acts like what we call a worm and it brute force attacks all of the services on your computer and all of the services on every other computer on the network. Now, you know how I've been warning about using VPNs when it comes to businesses, Jim. This is why. If you VPN in, into the office and that office is not protected from its VPN users, this Emotet will now start spreading to your business as well. We'll start taking over your file servers because it looks for SMB shares. The window shares, is what it is, a valid local account.  Very, very nasty and it is very sad and scary that it is attacking Republicans. Now Democrats would get this email as well, but the likelihood is they're just not going to be interested. So they're not going to open it. They've gotten a little more advanced too, for those of you out there that are a little geekier, It does pass email authentication protocols, such as D Mark. So this is a bit of nastiness and it'll be interesting to see if we can figure out who's sending them. Jim Polito: [00:06:53] It was what I was going to ask. And we're talking with Craig Peterson, our tech talk guru, and about this malware that is targeting Trump supporters. Now, could this just be an opportunity? They're going after Trump supporters, just because it was easy. It's a segment they are going after and it's apolitical.  their reasoning behind this is not political because maybe the door was left on the lock on this house. It was a crime of opportunity. It's not particularly against the family who lives there or do you think there's more to this. Craig Peterson: [00:07:29] Well, back up a little bit and I thought about this and here's kind of my thinking on it is that, um, Sleepy Joe's supporters are not particularly excited about his campaign or people voting for Joe Biden are voting against Trump for the most part. It's just crazy. So the way I look at it Trump supporters tend to be, you know, man, I'm on top of it. I do want to hear what's going on, you know? That goes right into your target of opportunity theory. I think it's absolutely likely that's what's going on here. They could be an attempt to kind of influence the election, but I think it's more likely a moneymaking opportunity for them. Jim Polito: [00:08:11] So they look at it as, Hey, there's more Trump voters engaged. They're going to be more active. Why not go after that big fish? Just like if the Patriots were in the world series, you'd have a lot of people from New England or elsewhere fans looking for stuff online related to the Patriots. So why not attack Patriots fans? Craig Peterson: [00:08:36] Hey now I even, I know that the Patriots would never be in the world series because that's baseball. Okay. Come on, Jim, come on. Pay attention. Jim Polito: [00:08:46] Did I, did I say words that I say world series? Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Series. It just proves it pages in the world series of the super bowl. Look, if it's not hockey, I trust you only with hockey. Okay. Because you're a Canadian, maybe that and curling. Okay. That's it. Craig Peterson: [00:09:08] Yeah. There you go. I love Curling actually. I really do. So here's what to look for. If you get a subject, this is the number one out there right now for this. The subject line has forward breaking President Trump suspends funding to WHO. That is the number one subject these guys are using right now. Breaking President Trump has spending funny to W H O and they're asking you to click a button labeled stand with Trump. They're hiding the sending address and everything else in these things. So, watch out. Be very, very careful in this political season about opening emails and more particularly about opening Microsoft documents. They've long been used as attack vectors against all of us, Jim Polito: [00:09:51] You know? I think about my own email and of course, I've got campaigns, pundits, everybody emailing me every single day, and you know, I open most of it and look at it. Just because I want to say, well, what's this, what's that?  I have not received anything like that, but I'm going to be very careful now going forward because that, the last thing I need is is that, Hey quickly, because we've only really got a minute. Five G  it looks, it looks like from what you sent me, the download speeds of five G in the US are going to be a lot slower than they are elsewhere in the world. It's going to be an improvement over 4g, but it's still going to be slower than the rest of the world. Why? Craig Peterson: [00:10:45] This is something that takes some serious time to explain. But getting it down to 60 seconds here's the bottom line. Five G is not the same thing across all carriers. Five G is using some different bands and different frequencies. Jim Polito: [00:11:01] So here's the problem that we're seeing right now. T-Mobile has the biggest five G network in the country. In fact, you could say it's the only five G network in the country, quite reasonably. However, because the frequency is there.  Using it is not as fast as Verizon's, which is only available in certain cities. In fact, in only available in certain blocks in certain cities. Craig Peterson: [00:11:25] Here's why. The T-Mobile frequencies will go through glass. They'll go through walls. You can use them in a building. Verizon's will not. You have to be very close to the cell site. Okay. So because of the lower frequency, you also cannot send as much data. On those little frequencies. So look right now, the US average is about two times faster than four G, which is really good in Europe. We're seeing much, much higher.  They have denser populations they're using the higher frequencies like Verizon is. Once Verizon's rolled out further, they will have faster download speeds. But, with Apple's big announcement today where we're going to have to make some decisions about what carrier we want, based on whether or not we want 5g. My bottom line on that it's not that a big win unless you are hauling a lot of data up and down to your phone. Jim Polito: [00:12:18] All right. That made sense to me, even in that short time. So Craig has got a great show Sundays at 11 o'clock and it's repeated at other points during the weekend on TAG and HYN, but Craig, if folks want to get in touch with you, and I know you said you're putting it out in your newsletter, some of this information, Craig Peterson: [00:12:37] well, just drop me an email. me@craigpeterson.com M E @craigpetersondotcom Subscribe by going to craigpeterson.com slash subscribe. Jim Polito: [00:12:47] Alrighty. Very good. Craig, always a pleasure. We'll catch up with you next week. Craig Peterson: [00:12:53] Thanks, Jim. Take care. Jim Polito: [00:12:54] You too. Bye-bye. ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Learn more about Anna Sheffield Fine JewelryLearn more about Bing BangSupport the show and get on monthly mentorship calls with Fabian. Join here.-------->F Geyrhalter:Welcome to the show, Anna.A Sheffield:Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be here with you today.F Geyrhalter:Oh, thank you. It's such a pleasure. You have two physical ateliers, right? One in LA on Melrose and one in New York City on Bleecker. How have these past four months affected your operations and brands? How did you have to pivot like everyone else?A Sheffield:Oh, it's been, yeah, very interesting. Fortunately for us, we were already kind of doing remote with me being back and forth between LA and New York. So, we had a little bit of practice. But at the onset, we closed both of the store locations and we shut down our production office and our headquarters.So, in the beginning, it was just a small remote team. I had to furlough most of the team in the beginning because there was nothing for them to be doing while the cities were shut down. We've since brought almost everyone back, which is amazing. But we pivot into really ... Yeah, we're so fortunate that we still have a clientele that's been waiting and is thrilled to have us back in the flow.But we pivoted to being mostly virtual appointment, which we actually do a lot of that anyway because we have clients from all over the world and they can't always come to New York or LA. So, during that time, we just got to hone those skills and really work on better ways to be digital, with our clients. So, customer service and sales and showing them stones and talking about the capabilities for making things bespoke.So, it was really just shifting to that digital platform and kind of going quietly for a minute. And then we've been able to ramp it back up over the last couple of months as things kind of shifted in Los Angeles and in New York, both, sort of at different paces. But by and large now that the stores are back open part time, we're doing appointments in real life, which people are also really thrilled about. And that's encouraging.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, congratulations. That's a big sigh of relief that everything went the way it did. It also sounds to me that because you had to dive much deeper into digital than you usually would have, most probably you come out a little bit stronger and smarter with your digital and appointments because I assume it's difficult to show stones over Skype or like Zoom.A Sheffield:It is, but actually, we have a few of our, and I mean, this is fortunate too, we work with a lot of different vendors for stones because they come from all over the world and I kind of cherry-pick the different people that we work with based on their ethics and their products and a number of things for diamonds as well as precious and semi-precious gemstones. So, a lot of them actually have pivoted to being more digital as well with having like really great videos of their product. So, there's a lot of beautiful assets that we have to work within terms of showing clients what's possible.But also over the last couple of years, we've really leaned into being able to advance the kind of dialogue with our customers and even with potential customers via the website. So, we've done a lot of kind of building out that knowledge base where people can kind of tap into, like, oh, what does this brand think about sustainability? How do they approach it? Or how do I learn about diamonds in the tone of voice that this brand has?So, we have a diamond school and we have a getting started so that people can kind of understand how to get through the engagement ring process or just different love stories or impact like all the different givebacks and things that we do. So, we really worked on doing that in a robust manner on our website in the last couple of years. And that definitely helped during this time also.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, I mean, look, this is a fascinating ... There were so many things that you said that we're going to have to dive deeper into. But just to start with the diamond selection part, it is a nerve-wracking, overwhelming journey for anyone, right? Because it is so hard to understand because there's a list of 10, 16 ways that you should judge a diamond. And the question is, I mean, how much of that is really visible to the eye and how much of that within the industry do you feel is a little bit of an upset. What do you think is really important?A Sheffield:Yeah, to me, I think imperfections and oddities are beautiful. So, from the onset, I've always kind of embraced that and put those forth as options for people and really trying to take what feels a little bit stereo instructions.F Geyrhalter:Yeah.A Sheffield:Like, oh my god, how do I put this together, the four Cs, the blah blah blah, what matters, what doesn't matter.F Geyrhalter:Right.A Sheffield:And really this distill that in a way that makes it easy for people to understand that they can trust us because I am honestly interested in conveying that information but in a way that makes sense for people. So, I really love what's meant to be the tippy top is the white diamond. So that's what's been held aloft as the purist white diamond with no inclusions with a perfect cut, with the largest carat. That's supposed to be the thing, which were the size. So, those are the things that were meant to be the most perfect.And then what I really to do is show people, yes, that's possible. But also like an off white stone, especially if it's an antique diamond, can be really beautiful, especially if you're putting it in yellow gold. Or I like gray diamonds and that's really a diamond that has so many imperfections that it looks grayish or even has speckles and spots, or intergalactic beautiful fractal sort of crystal in layers within it.And if you were looking at white diamonds and then moving over to a gray, you might be like, oh my gosh, that's not a very nice diamond. But really, they're beautiful. So, I've always kind of embraced that and tried to walk people through it.Champagne diamonds are actually just on the scale of brown, but they have their own sort of set of really beautiful hues. And when we're selecting champagne diamonds, we pick the ones that have kind of pinkish hues or really nice kind of subtle, kind of vanilla cream soda kind of tones. So, there's a lot in it that's kind of aesthetic still and it doesn't have to just be technical. So, we try to present that. And also to design things that work with those stones.F Geyrhalter:I guess it was John Legend, who in one of his majorly cheesy songs said perfect imperfections.A Sheffield:Exactly. Yes.F Geyrhalter:I love that idea of perfect imperfections. And I love what you just said because, I mean, that creates character, right?A Sheffield:Mm-hmm (affirmative).F Geyrhalter:Not in the diamond term, but yeah, absolutely.A Sheffield:We got it actually. Yeah, we call it the fitzy character.F Geyrhalter:Oh, no way, perfect.A Sheffield:Yeah, because it feels like, why not take that into consideration?F Geyrhalter:And it's so good.A Sheffield:Everybody individually has different tastes, so allowing for that, some people sparkle, some people prefer luminescence, some people prefer color. It's good to sort of have character as part of it.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. While we talk about this, I want to read two sentences from your bio to set a little bit of the tone for this. Throughout her career, Anna has demonstrated a deep commitment to the highest standards of jewelry production and to giving back both missions fueled by the inspiration that she gains from the worlds of art, nature, spirituality, and indigenous arts and crafts. Ethical sourcing, responsible practice and philanthropy are core pillars of the Anna Sheffield brand and can be seen through her use of single-origin gem sourcing, reclaimed melee and recycled gold, as well as initiatives like the Future Heritage Fund, which in partnership with the New Mexico Foundation, the NMF, aim to preserve and protect the cultural heritage and landscape of the southwest.A Sheffield:That's a lot.F Geyrhalter:I know. You know what's so amazing? This is two sentences. I could have written it. It could have been a German sentence structure.A Sheffield:Yeah.F Geyrhalter:But I mean, there's a lot to talk about.A Sheffield:Totally.F Geyrhalter:Especially when you talk about ethical sourcing, which I'm really, really interested in and there were many instances or let's say a few instances where I wanted to go out and look at that myself and it was always very, very complicated for me to actually get a lab-grown stone for instance. But you source only recycled gold and conflict-free stones and you do also work with diamond Foundry to source lab-grown stones. How has that impacted the industry? Is lab-grown the future in diamonds?A Sheffield:I think it is to some degree. I think there will always be a desire for natural diamonds, like mined diamonds. But what I try to do in that respect is to mix in the reclaimed as much as we can. So, the melees or the tiny little diamonds that are in pave, and even to some degrees side stones up to about three millimeter, I couldn't get reclaimed stones. So, I try to incorporate as much reclaimed as I can.But we also have the opportunity to do Foundry for the manmade, so the lab-grown stones and then to try and offer antique, or even to go through more single-origin or even just working with vendors that have just a really transparent supply chain.So, I think that lab-grown is an important element for this industry to be able to investigate and I think for clients to be able to ask for it really, and that people should be able to supply. But in some cases, for example, with champagne diamonds or gray diamonds, that you can't really make those. That's not doable in a lab.F Geyrhalter:Interesting.A Sheffield:There are limitations to the carat size. There are limitations to the clarity and color. And in some instances, it depends on the company, I like Foundry because they are carbon neutral. But in some instances, I don't see that it's any better for a company to use a ton of fossil fuels to manufacture a diamond versus mining for it.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, right.A Sheffield:And there are also a lot of them that are treated after the fact. So, they heat them to make them more white because they turn out yellow in the original crystal. So, there's a lot to it. There's still just so much beneath the surface that is not customer-facing, that's more industry-sided knowledge.F Geyrhalter:Yeah.A Sheffield:And I think that it's important that those conversations happen for people as well because I think the consumer needs to know the difference. And they need to know, oh, if I'm not only asking for conflict-free or for a lab grown, I'm also making sure that that lab-grown is from a zero-carbon company, or that the natural diamonds are coming through some sort of a supply chain that's traceable. So, you know that the cutters are being treated well. That the rough has been chosen by someone that you trust.F Geyrhalter:Absolutely, yeah.A Sheffield:There's a lot of different layers to it. So, yeah. As an industry-wide standard, I don't think there's a lot of really client-facing information about that. So, I've really worked to bring that forth as much as we can, as much as I'm aware or can be to try to improve on it. And I think to set new standards as a small company, I think it's important.F Geyrhalter:That is important. The term alone "lab-grown" makes me assume that the output is indefinite. I mean, is it very easy to get lab-grown diamonds these days? Do they just pop them out like there's no tomorrow, or is the process very different than that?A Sheffield:It still takes time and it takes a lot of energy. And again, there's different ways that you can grow the diamond crystal. So, lab-grown can vary between companies, but the Foundry has a certain way that they grow their stones. There are limitations. So, you won't find a lot of larger size, carat size stones. And you won't find a lot of high clarity stones. And often they're going to be in a low color because they don't treat their stones. So, there are limitations as well. So, you can't just decide, "I want a 10-carat, perfectly white diamond," and just push a button and print it out.F Geyrhalter:Okay. Yeah. That was my naive question, which as a shopper, that's what you think. You're like, "Lab-grown, oh."A Sheffield:It's good to know.F Geyrhalter:Yeah. And that's what I realized, too. As a typical male consumer in this world, very last minute shopping. So, what I do usually, it's like a week or two before anniversaries or anything, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, that's coming up. I need to do something." And that's why I have never been able to get a lab-grown diamond because it's always too late. Because it actually takes a little bit of planning for those things.A Sheffield:Yeah, exactly. A lot of diamond jewelry does, especially if you want something bespoke because it takes time to source the stone and then make the piece and get it shipped to you wherever you are.F Geyrhalter:Exactly, yeah.A Sheffield:Yeah, hence, we try to send lots of reminders for those things.F Geyrhalter:Well, yeah. And hence, my wife hasn't gotten any bespoke jewelry in a little bit.A Sheffield:Yeah, so planning ahead.F Geyrhalter:I mean, reading up on you and your personality and how you run your brand, you talk about the spirituality, as well as reclaimed and recycled a lot with your jewelry. So, I am brave and maybe sleep deprived enough to ask this rather esoteric question.A Sheffield:I love an esoteric question.F Geyrhalter:Well, let's see. Let's see, you will. To what extent do you feel that some of these stones that are reclaimed carry the soul or the spirit of the person who actually used to own them? Is that a consideration for you? I know some people buy a house and then they walk into the house and they're like, "Oh, someone deceased in this house. We can never live here, right?"A Sheffield:Yes.F Geyrhalter:You know where I'm heading with this.A Sheffield:Of course.F Geyrhalter:How do you feel about this? Because I mean, you feel the stones that you receive, right, and I mean, for you, it is an art?A Sheffield:Absolutely. Yeah, I do think that many things, many objects, I think the objects can carry a resonant kind of feeling not only from a person that might have held them before but also their origins, which is why the sourcing is so important.F Geyrhalter:Right.A Sheffield:But I think with all things that have that kind of base level of sentience or some sort of attachment spiritual, energetic kind of their own sort of glow, if you will, I think people can perceive those things, even if it's only a slight perception. But I think when you're looking at diamonds, and I don't think this goes so much for the melee because they're very small and they've been sort of cultivated from all these different sources. But if you're picking out an antique center diamond, for example, and you're looking at four or five, old euros or old mine cuts that these are pre-World War I, so, even potentially more in the late 1800s.So, if you're looking at these stones and you know that they're antique, you're imagining that, yes, these have probably been set in jewelry before, may or may not have been an engagement ring, could have been something else. But the chances are high that this has been someone's talisman, someone's amulet, someone's piece of jewelry at some point in their life.And I do think that when you're looking at them and you're interacting with them, that you can kind of tell which ones are that have extra shine to them, and which ones are dull or don't have that kind of beautiful resonance. So, I think that's one of the good things about letting people choose their stone. Even with a modern diamond that you know hasn't been in someone else's jewelry before, there's still that feeling of where it came from, its provenance, what it went through to get to you. And I think that it's important for people to sort of have that time to be able to look at something and feel it and choose it. And there are definitely folks out there that do not want a recycled or reclaimed diamond. And there are people that might just get that stone and then put it in some sea salt and let it sit out for a full moon overnight or something to leave it. Those are all possibilities too.And I think it's important with any gemstones, personally with my own jewelry, too, I take things off now and then and I just kind of let them do their own little clearing. Put them on a crystal or I'll put some sage or I'll clean them with saltwater or something just to get the energy moving through them.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, yeah. Well, I am glad I asked.A Sheffield:Yeah. As witchy as you want to be would be my answer.F Geyrhalter:So, talking about witchy, you have a cult following, I would say, which includes countless celebrities from Jennifer Lawrence, Meryl Streep, Kerry Washington, Helen Mirren, Charlize Theron, et cetera, et cetera. I could go on. But obviously, it's not always been like that. I mean, you started somewhere. How did you start off? And did you always have the drive that you knew that you wanted to create your own brand at some point?A Sheffield:No, it was a total and complete accident actually, which was I think fortunate because I think I can overthink things. So, it was kind of good that it happened in a more meandering way. But yeah, I was right out of art school. I kind of thought, oh, I should have a little sole proprietorship so that I can do my thing and sell my art and maybe make things for people if I want to make something. I do steel, metal arts and stuff.So, I got a sole proprietorship thinking, oh, this will be just an easier way for me to get paid when I've worked with a gallery or do an open studio. So, I chose a name, Bing Bang, B-I-N-G B-A-N-G because it felt like two hands with a hammer and an anvil getting stuff done. And it was just a total fluke because I was like, nobody will ever know this name. I just have to publish it in a paper and then my sole proprietorship is active.And so, I started with that. And then I was making jewelry a little bit in addition to my art because I was making sculpture at the time. And I would just make jewelry when I felt stuck or just wanted to do something that wasn't so heavy. And then I started wearing that jewelry and then people would see it and ask about it. And then I would be like, "Oh, I'll make you one." Wear it into a little store in my neighborhood and try on jeans and they'd be like, "Oh my god, that ring is so cool." "Oh, I made it." And then, that's how it started.So, I didn't really plan on having a brand whatsoever. I didn't pick the name thinking that I was going to have a brand. So, that was the first bit of the happy accident. So, then as that grew and I still do that brand-F Geyrhalter:Yeah, Bing Bang is around, right, which is amazing.A Sheffield:Yeah. We'll be 20 years this year. So, I started in 2001. And it was my first sort of foray into that whole thing. And I had no experience in fashion. And I had never thought about branding or advertising, or even really designed for that matter. I didn't know anything about the fashion industry. So, I just kind of went with it. And it kind of took me to this place where I was living in New York and Bing Bang became my full-time gig.I wasn't really making art anymore. I really just leaned in to doing jewelry and all these things that I didn't really know were working, I kind of learned about in retrospect as I really learned about branding and marketing. So, there were a lot of fun things. I didn't realize that there was this thing called managed scarcity, which is when you run out of something and people are like, "Oh, my god, I have to have it." Basically like the line at Supreme is managed scarcity is their business model.F Geyrhalter:Right.A Sheffield:And so, early on with Bing Bang, I was making everything by hand. We had early success with celebrity. That's way before Instagram, before the internet really, but I was selling at Barneys and making everything by hand in Brooklyn. And all of a sudden, a celebrity would be wearing, Drew Barrymore, or Jessica Simpson, or somebody, Maggie Gyllenhaal would be wearing something of ours.And they would get credited and People or Star or Us Weekly, and it would be like, Bing Bang Jewelry at Barney's and then it would be like, they'd call me frantically. "Oh, my god, those earrings, we don't have any left. There's people that want them." And I was like, "Okay, well, I'll start making them today and I'll have them [inaudible 00:21:36] in a couple weeks." And people will be like, "What? I have to wait?" It was like this whole thing. So, getting little by little, I was like, okay, I have to figure out hiring people. I have to figure out branding. I didn't really have a logo. I never had a business plan.So, in the beginning, Bing Bang was just this thing that I built, like a little castle out of Legos, one little brick at a time. And then watching it evolve has been so magnificent and so fun. So, by the time I started my fine jewelry brand, I really had gained a lot of experience. So, that was magical. And to be able to have that opportunity basically to learn on the job and to start with something that was just really fun for me and it's always been fulfilling, it was a little like lower stakes because it didn't have my name on it. It was always like Bing Bang. It's like this little-F Geyrhalter:Right, right, right.A Sheffield:It's a little crew, a little team. And it is still a team, which is wonderful. So, when it came time to start the fine jewelry, I had just sort of reserved my name because I was making art. I was like, "I'm a sculptor. I want to use my name for my art."F Geyrhalter:That's why I was wondering, yeah.A Sheffield:And I didn't really have an intention of being a jewelry brand or doing a brand or being a brand. So, when it came to it, and I really wanted to start playing with fine jewelry, I started to explore diamonds and gold and making fans growing up, I started this brand and my big name in my 20s and I was in my 30s. And I was like, I want things that last and I want to make things that are precious.And so, it was really interesting in the beginning to kind of look at it and try to unravel that like, what is my brand. That was the hardest of all because Bing Bang really came so naturally. It just fell into place. And building my brand has always been much more complicated.F Geyrhalter:Well, you were reluctant using your name, right, because that's a big step.A Sheffield:Yes.F Geyrhalter:I mean, I did the other way around. So, we actually founded our company at the same time. I founded mine in 2001 as well. But I actually started with my name. I started with Geyrhalter Design. Then I realized we're doing more than design. So, 10 years later, it was Geyrhalter & Co. And then I realized, well now, I'm doing something totally different. I need to change my name. And plus, what if I ever want to grow or sell my company. It should have a different name, right?A Sheffield:Exactly.F Geyrhalter:I pivoted into FINIEN. And now everyone is like, "Hey, why is your company called FINIEN if you're only a consultant with a couple employees?" And I'm like, "Well."A Sheffield:Different journey.F Geyrhalter:It's a journey. There's a lot to it. But why were you so reluctant? Was it because of everyone else in the industry? Was it a norm that everyone used a name? And that's why you wanted to go against it?A Sheffield:Yeah, by and large. I mean, when you look at the big boys like Tiffany's and Harry Winston, there's a lot. Even among more contemporary designers like David Yurman, or, yeah, people use their name and I don't know. I just felt very reticent to do that. I felt shy. It felt like I was really ... With Bing Bang, I could always kind of hide behind this like, it's an us thing, like we.Whereas once I put my name on it, it was like I'm the solely responsible for whether this is good or bad. I'm solely responsible for the success of this thing that is like where is unintelligible where the line is between me and it. So, that was hard. And like I said, as a spiritual person, it's also like, oh my god, do I really want to put myself out there like that?F Geyrhalter:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I mean, did that idea of branding then affect your company culture? Because obviously, you have a good amount of employees now.A Sheffield:Yes.F Geyrhalter:On the one hand, that is your name on the door, right?A Sheffield:Mm-hmm (affirmative).F Geyrhalter:Nice, big and shiny, everything you always feared.A Sheffield:Yes.F Geyrhalter:But on the other hand, your brand is very purposeful and there are plenty of shared values your team can be inspired and driven by, right?A Sheffield:Yeah.F Geyrhalter:How does that work with the team? How does that brand relate to how your culture actually works?A Sheffield:Well, I think it's interesting because I've always been such a part of it. We are independently financed. So, it's not like I have to answer to anyone or that anyone else has to answer to anyone. So, it's always been a bit of a community. And it started small. So, everyone that's worked with me, and I'm still friends with, been close with many of the people who've worked with me over the years, it's such a group effort. And it's one of those things with small companies, where everybody just kind of does whatever needs to be done. It's like a ship. Everybody has their role, but also it's like when things are happening, it's just like, "I'm closest, I'll do that" or "I can manage that." Or "Why don't we do this together, it needs four hands." So, it's always been about this kind of group effort.And I think people seeing me really be in the company, running the company, making decisions, helping, I've done everything that everyone can do in my company now, with the exception of those who have incredible expertise. But I used to upload everything to the website. I used to take all the photos. I used to style everything for the cases and write all the copy. So, it's been good in that way just to, I think, to be a part of a team where people can really see that all my team can see that I'm in it. I'm in the trenches. I'm doing things. I'm working all the time. And I'm trying to be a good leader.But at the same time, I think where it comes to the branding, same thing, I never started out with a brand guide and a deck and an investor. It was always kind of I'm making it up as we went along. So, with my company, I did end up eventually doing a brand guide. And it was amazing for me to work with people whose expertise is just that. I worked with my brother and a few others. And we went in and really mined for that information, really pulled forth the values and the pillars and the ideology and the ethos and aesthetic, and all of these things that are just ... So, they're tangible, but you have to really be able to walk all the way around them to identify them, to put words to them.So, we did that exercise. I think it's been maybe about four years ago. And it's been so instrumental even for me to be able to have that to look back at and to share with new employees as we expand to bring new people on as we open new stores or look for new marketing opportunities or add new content franchises to our social media. It's really great to have this kind of bible as it were that you can look to for many of your answers. And also, if there's things that are no longer resonating, then you can realize where you're evolving.F Geyrhalter:I so agree. I just did one of these workshops on Thursday and Friday with an Italian interior design company of all places, which was nice because I felt like I'm actually going out of the country. I think at 4:00, they started mixing negronis and I'm like, "Wow, that's nice." And they have to go in a cigarette break. And I'm like, "Oh, okay."A Sheffield:Oh, Italy.F Geyrhalter:Oh, it was so beautiful. But the reason why I say this is because afterwards, they said, "Oh my god, Fabian, you're a miracle worker." And I'm like, "I'm not a miracle worker because everything that came out of the workshop was from you." Right? So, basically, I'm just a therapist. I just get it out of you.And so, it's really great to hear that from you after you've been in business for so long. And then finally, you realize that you are expanding, you are hiring, you need to put all of these values down, you need to put the pillars in stone.And to actually feel that relief and to have this clarity moving forward that now it's all on one page or on a couple of pages and here, this is our brand, right? Even if you grew it very organically and authentically, those things are important. They're not fake. Either they come from you, which I think is so important.A Sheffield:Precisely.F Geyrhalter:Talking about Italy in one of your Instagram posts, you cited the famous Benetton campaign from the [crosstalk 00:30:32] by Oliviero Toscani, who was a big reason why I decided to actually study communication design and advertising. In the post you say, it makes me remember that the brands we support have the option to integrate the present with the future we want to see. I hope that we can continue to bring that belief into our brand and exemplified at ASG as united in the bold vision of all for love.So, that being said, which is so great, and I love seeing that because this entire campaign to me was so ... It was just so important in my growth as a designer in the way that I wanted to make a dent in the world as well. How has the Black Lives Matter movement influenced the way that your brand communicates in these sobering but also very empowering and very important times? Did things change for you? I mean, it affected every brand, right? And everyone was kind of standing their deer in headlights like now, but ... Right?A Sheffield:Yes. Well, I think, I mean, the good in it like you said is that this is bringing a lot out into the light. And a lot of people are being held accountable. And everyone is being required to look really sobering, take a really sobering view of themselves and their businesses and the businesses they support and their friendships and their families and the world we're living in.So, in many ways, I think it's wonderful. And I think that you can only change what you're willing to work towards. So, I think this is a good moment for America and for the world. And I think that that's why the Benetton campaign felt so relevant to me because that was a really early moment for me in my life is like, I don't even know, I was probably seven or eight, looking at these shiny, beautiful ads in a magazine or as I was going through in airport and seeing these beautiful faces and thinking, oh, my goodness, that is beautiful, not even knowing the word "compelling" but feeling compelled.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, yeah.A Sheffield:And I've always tried to find ways that we could do that, not just with our visual, not with our creative and marketing, but just with our words and with what we really strive to do with this brand. And because we make engagement rings and wedding bands, and fine jewelry that mark moments in people's lives, I don't want anyone to feel alienated from that, not just because of the price point but because of what our visuals look like and what kind of models we're using or how we speak to people, and also how we use our platform to support in moments like this.So, one of the good things that we did that I felt was empowering for us was to be able to lean into sharing information because we are a platform with a lot of followers. So, being able to aggregate content from others and to share and amplify messages from those who really deserve to be heard right now and to champion different causes that I think are really important, like the trans movement, the Trans Lives Matter Movement is so important. And I have friends that are trans and I have since I was in college.And I think that being able to look at that from a personal perspective, but also, oh, well, how can I use my brand to show people that maybe don't have a trans person in their life or that haven't had first-hand experience with this, to show them that this is beautiful and sacred and that it's important to be able to have this dialogue and to rally the troops. This is where we can help. But also, this is where we can listen. And this is where we can learn. And this is how we can bring our message forth and act.So, I think that trying to find ways to use the brand to be a part of that conversation is really important. And I feel like I don't want to say we've done a good job, but I think we've been authentic to that purpose. And I think thankfully, it's always been part of our dialogue so it didn't feel like it was a leap because since we mentioned it earlier, but the Future Heritage Fund I started about four years ago, 2006, I think, because I grew up in New Mexico and in my early life, I lived in the Navajo Nation. My parents were working for the Indian National Health Service. So, I spent the first few years of my life living in the Dine community. And I was a child, but I was there within this beautiful community.And the artwork in our house and the other people that we lived near and the whole southwest is very steeped in the Native American cultures that are there the Navajo, Dine or the Pueblo tribes, the Apache tribes, there's a lot of that art and artisanship and culture and belief systems and sacred places. So, I really wanted to bring that into my work.And as this person who left New Mexico and moved to New York City and has this kind of different life, a very different life than I would have had if I had I stayed in New Mexico, to be able to take that and show how important it is to support these artists and communities and to talk about cultural preservation and try to really, I don't know, just share this experience that I've had firsthand growing up in this place that's so beautiful, and to not only talk about the problems there, but also to talk about solutions.So, I think it's really important too to approach this conversation where it relates to the indigenous people in America. And so, it is also part of this movement, I believe, in so many ways. So, I think, having been working on that for the last five years, it was also really important to at the beginning of COVID lean into that too because it was adversely affecting in a lot of native communities here in the states.F Geyrhalter:Yeah. I'm acutely aware of that too because I worked with an organization called the Wind River Foundation, and they are very much working towards the same goals as you explained. Actually, there was so much that you just said. But it came right back to the question. But I would actually urge everyone to look at your Instagram account because you're doing amazingly on your Instagram account. I love the stories. I love the cameo stories that you created, which are not Cameo the brand, which I interviewed them here too, but it's actual cameos.It's extremely authentic. But it's also very, very well curated. And it's just a pleasure to follow. On your website, you also state this and I absolutely love that. You say it's around us, between us, within us. It's alchemy. So, with that, and since we're slowly coming closer to an end here, I want to ask you the big question, which you knew I would ask you. What does branding mean to you, now that you've done this for almost 20 years? What does branding mean to Anna?A Sheffield:Well, I mean, to me, it's the stories. It's those things that people can hear you, tell and they can conjure up their own images, and they can feel where it relates to them and really feel enveloped by the mood and the meaning that you're putting forth with your stories. And I think that can be told in words. It can be shown in the product. It can be a part of our visuals. And it can be also how we speak to things like the cameos. These are amazing people I love that I want you to know about and they're going to have a little cameo on my Instagram today.So, taking all the different stories that we have and putting them out for people to experience I think is what branding really, what it really is at the end of the day because it's taking something so visceral and moving it into something physical. And for people to have an experience around that, I think it has to be multilayered. It has to be multisensory.F Geyrhalter:I absolutely love that. And that's also the reason why I wanted you to be on my show so badly because it's not easy to do what you just said in the jewelry, fine jewelry space. It's really, really difficult because everything is stereotyped, right?A Sheffield:Yeah, very much, yeah.F Geyrhalter:It is an entire stock photography industry. And so, to actually be able to stand out and to create an authentic experience and yet be able to scale you do is really amazing. So, I think there's a lot that our listeners can learn from just analyzing your website and your Instagram. And I would actually encourage everyone to go to your website because just going through the ethics section alone is it's a joy.A Sheffield:Thank you.F Geyrhalter:I mean, it's a beautiful site. Its functionality is really fantastic. So, it's a pleasure. If you can take your brand and you put it through a funnel and outcome is only one word, what would be your brand's DNA? What would be one word that could encompass the entire brand?A Sheffield:I think what you just said, it's alchemy. Alchemy is definitely the one word because there's magic in how things come together. And that's exactly what we do. There's alchemy not only in the diamond that came out of the center of the earth that was forged by fire and pressure and this is an amazing, cosmic thing. But also taking that little diamond and putting it into something that honors it like a setting, that design that really shows what it is even those perfectly imperfect ones in their best light and then how that also then becomes a part of someone's life and a part of their love story. And that there's an alchemy in that and how it becomes an heirloom or talisman that then holds all of this energy, and all of these memories, and all this meaning.So, I feel like alchemy is really that, where these different things combine to make something so much greater, so much more profound. And I think jewelry should absolutely be that. Even with Bing Bang, we work towards maintaining meaning in what we do, even though it's less expensive and more attainable and more fashion-forward, younger, still there's an alchemy in that too in those moments in our life.So, I think particularly with fine jewelry though and with the materials and the clients that we serve, I think that the alchemy is just absolutely the end all be all because it feels everyone has a part in it too. The changes and the transformations are what among so many people touching, feeling, experiencing, wearing and being with the jewelry.F Geyrhalter:And what you just said over the last couple of minutes is the power of having clarity in your brand, being able to actually put it down to word like "alchemy" that is so all encompassing, I mean, really tells the entire story of what you do and how you do it and why you do it in one single not overused word. It's so powerful. I mean, I love that. I love hearing that. It's really, really great.To finish things off, do you have any brand advice for founders that are fresher to the whole intrapreneurial journey, that you feel you can leave them with, anything you learned over your years where you feel like, you know what, I'm going to leave the show with these thoughts.A Sheffield:Sure. I mean, this advice is pretty standard for me. I feel like, we all know, our intuition is so powerful. Those little gut feelings and the senses that we have about what's good and what's bad, I think it's important to follow those as much as you can, and to not let anyone tell you that that's a bad way to do business. Because there's all this conventional wisdom that there should be data. Of course, there should be data. That there should be experience, of course, there should be experienced.But also you can't undervalue how someone just having an idea and believing in it can make something really wonderful happened that no one else has done and that those stories come up time and again. But I think that really trusting in yourself is so important. And I think it's one of those first things that you, I mean, at least for me, I would think, "Well, I mean, there's no reason why I should think this is a good idea, but it feels like a good idea."Sometimes I don't follow my own advice. And I don't follow my own intuitions and that's okay, too, because you have to fail to learn. You have to have moments of doubt to come out the other side with more direction and more conviction. But I think that, yeah, the one thing I would say is just to follow your gut.F Geyrhalter:And I've been I've been hearing this quite a lot in my podcasts lately and that is a really good thing because I'm really glad that more people hear that because it's actually not easy to trust your gut. It sounds like it would be easy, but it takes a certain personality. It takes certain charisma. And it takes guts to listen to yourself and to just say, "I'm going to go against the grain. I'm not going to look at data. I'm just going to go with this because my instinct tells me."And I think a lot of it comes with experience where you start ... Because you know, you yourself just know that this might be the right direction.A Sheffield:Exactly.F Geyrhalter:And you have the experience to say, I'm just going to go down that path.Anna, it was so great having you on. I have a feeling that people can find you ... The best way to start is annasheffield.com, right?A Sheffield:Yes. That would be a big part. And on Instagram, the same, it's @annasheffield.F Geyrhalter:Perfect.A Sheffield:And then Bing Bang if you want to look at the beginnings and how that's evolved over 20 years, how I stayed 20 for 20 years. It's @bingbangnyc and same for the website. So, they're both worth looking at. I love both brands and I still wear both brands. So, I think it's kind of cool for people to see the connection between the two.F Geyrhalter:I know. I know. It was really interesting for me, too, as I researched your brands a little bit more. Anna, thank you so much for having been on the show, for taking the time out of your day. Stay safe, stay healthy.A Sheffield:Yeah.F Geyrhalter:And keep trusting your gut, right?A Sheffield:Yes, yes. I will. I do my best. Thank you. Thank you for the wonderful questions.F Geyrhalter:Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. Thank you so much.A Sheffield:Take care.

Why don’t more companies offer affordable international shipping? The answer is because navigating the world of VAT, customs, international duties, and other intricacies make this too much of a headache for most eCommerce operators. Additionally, technical components, payment options, logistics and, yes, varying holiday calendars are all variables that a company needs to consider when it is expanding globally. It’s nearly impossible to do without some sort of help.  So the question becomes how do you face this nightmare ready and prepared? That’s where Matthew Merrilees comes in. Matthew is the CEO, North America for Global-e, and they solve these problems. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Matthew shares the ins and outs of what it takes to equip your ecommerce brand for international expansion.  Whether you need to address currency concerns or want to understand the data that drives your competitors to success in the market, Matthew shares those secrets and more on today’s episode.  Main Takeaways: Is It a Holiday? — When brands expand internationally, it’s important to know and plan for holidays that affect customers in every single market. There are opportunities being missed by companies who are too focused on the big international holidays and not enough on local strategy.  Pay With Ease — Customers want transactions to be simple. Anything that makes a transaction hard, or confusing, will almost certainly result in an abandoned purchase. Implementing an integrated, hyper-localized payment and taxation strategy is one of the first things companies need to consider when expanding internationally. Plan B — Companies and individuals are currently experiencing many unexpected disruptions in life and business. Being able to navigate through those disruptions is necessary in order to continue providing the best possible customer experience. Creating contingency plans and backup systems to deploy if there is a disruption in your logistics or backend operations will take you a long way.   For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to another episode of Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder of Mission.org. And today on the show, we have Matthew Merrilees, the CEO of North America at Global-e. Matthew, Welcome. Matthew: Hey, pleasure to be here Stephanie. Thanks so much for having me. Stephanie: So, I want to dive in a bit into your background. It looks like you've worked at a lot of different logistics companies. Before we touch on Global-e, I was hoping we could go over your background a bit and how you got to where you are. Matthew: Yeah, for sure. It gets a bit about me, and my background, definitely started, I would say from call it my family history, just the family history of fathers and brothers. And call it family members who grew up in operations logistics, and obviously [inaudible] Ecommerce. So, I think as I followed the family tree and fell into place, I think all in all it definitely did kick off and start my career at DHL Express, where I spent quite a number of years in various different positions, leadership roles, and such. And then made the transition to FedEx where I definitely did a lot of the same. And obviously, now here at Global-e. I think when you look at the background, straight from university into the logistics arena, was quite exciting. Stephanie: Yep. Very cool. So tell me a little bit about Global-e. What is the company? And what kind of customers do you guys have? And how do you interact with them? Matthew: Yeah, for sure. What we are is a cross border enablement platform, right? We focus primarily in three different arenas that support our brands, which is in boosting international conversion rates, which is boosting overall sales and revenue of course. And then most importantly, boosting customer satisfaction for an international transaction. Right? So I think when you look at the vast portfolio of brands that we work with from a global perspective... I mean, we worked with over 350 enterprise global brands, right? Matthew: So when you look at some of the likes of, let's just call it Forever 21, Reformation and Anastasia Beverly Hills, Marc Jacobs, Hugo boss, Versace. But, I think when you look at the broad gamut of brands, I mean it is something that is, for me, always eye opening. Just how we're able to help take an international transaction and really, truly localize it to a way that consumer in that individual market would really expect to buy online. And I think there's a lot of barriers when you look at the international market and how we help these brands really position that data, that knowledge, that insight, and that expertise is really I'd say where we come in and help. Stephanie: Cool. And what stage does a company need to be at to partner with Global-e? Do they need to be as big as Forever 21, or could a new DTC company also utilize your great services? Matthew: Really it's any size, shape or brand. I would say just over I think seven years ago now we deployed the business, right? And I think we came out of the gate with a very strong enterprise focus. But, I think as we evolved we saw the demand in market for small medium enterprise type brands. Really it's any size, shape or brand who has let's just call it an Ecommerce platform running an online digital storefront. And it is someone that obviously has an Ecommerce strategy in place today. So it's not just the Bigs that I think you see in the market that we continue to focus on and then come into the portfolio. I think it's also those brands that are digitally native, that are really looking to capture revenue outside of their home market. So I think it's really any size, shape or size customer that could lead to that discussion. Stephanie: Cool. I was hoping we could kind of start the episode there around what are maybe some international fails you see happening with brands right now, or hiccups that maybe new companies would encounter if they don't use a solution that figures out all the different challenges when selling across borders. Matthew: Yeah, for sure. I think sales are important. Obviously, I think brands all have different approaches to sale, right? There are some heavy sale brands by design. There are some flash sale businesses out there that really drive high, heavy traffic to a limited amount of inventory. And then I think there's your typical sale holidays where everyone's on sale, which is typically your Black Friday type periods that we recognize here in the North American market. But, I think as brands start to think internationally and think what sales exists outside of just this US home market. For us, we start to really get into the education process, which is number one; what are the holidays that are happening outside of the USA? Is it Singles Day? Is it Boxing Day? Is it Click Frenzy in Australia, for example? Which I think is the beginning part for a lot of the brands that we tend to work with. Matthew: I'd say number one, what are the holidays? What and where do these holidays exist? And then number two, how do you get prepared in order to approach that consumer? Is it a similar approach that we have to a domestic customer here in the US? They're going to need to be spoken to and treated in a unique way that more relates to them in that market. So I think sales are critically important. But, I think with branding awareness of when they're happening, why they're happening, and how to really give that consumer, let's just say the customer satisfaction experience that they would expect, is important. Stephanie: Yep. Are there any holidays that come to mind that you've seen a bunch of brands missing? Because I've heard of a couple of them like Singles Day. I think especially more recently, we started hearing about these other sales that go on around the world. But, is there any big opportunities or a time when you say, "Hey, there's a sale happening." And a lot of brands are like, "Oh, I've never heard of that." Or, "That's never come across my radar before." But, it's like a big important one? Matthew: Honestly, the three I listed, and the reason for listing them is because they are the most important, that typically I would say a lot of brands are just not aware of. And believe it or not, don't have strategies planned around. They used to be sales, and I think that specifically the two in both Boxing Day, and I'd say most importantly, Click Frenzy, is probably the one that is most highly missed out of the portfolio of brands. Just saying, "Wow! Click Frenzy, I didn't realize how large it was." And it's something that we absolutely want to help tailor to our market, which is such a key focus market for a lot of US brands in Australia. Stephanie: Got it. So what kind of strategies are you maybe suggesting to them? Maybe we'll focus on those two. How would you walk a brand through these holidays and maybe how to approach it to get into that market? Matthew: I think it all begins with the communication. So number one, we talked about the education, the awareness, which is obviously going to be key. And then I think with the brand. Every brand, as I mentioned earlier, the approach sale differently. So I think when you look at whether it be a flash sale business, whether it be a traditionally just natively sale business, who's very highly discounted down to high luxury brands that like to go on sale at certain times per year, typically two times or so per year, I think it all begins with their engagement. And obviously a lot of the brands, they free up their time for these marketing efforts. And we help break down a lot of barriers to get them to focus their time on the strategy. But, I think it begins with a setting strategy for each one of these markets. Matthew: And it begins with communication. How are you going to touch that consumer? How are you going to touch that consumer in a way that relates locally to them? And then obviously making sure that you have all the tools in place to execute on that sale so that when that consumer hits for an Australian day like Frenzy, they're seeing their currency in Australian dollars. They're aware of GST and the 10% that has to be captured on every single order that is being built in your product price. These are things that you need to communicate, "Hey, we've got a great sale going on. But, hey, also we accept your local currency. You can come buy with confidence." So I think as long as the marketing strategies within the brands are executing them the way they typically do, I think the next step there is to make sure that they've got the tools and the site in place to then obviously relate to that customer. Stephanie: Got it. And are you helping them implement those technologies? Or are you more giving avenues of like, "You couldn't implement this tech stack or you could go with this one." Matthew: So we typically implement it. Right? So all of our brands, even all of the ones that I've spoken about in the entire portfolio, basically what Global-e is doing is helping, let's just say arm and equip their site to be able to speak to an international consumer. And I'd say a lot of brands, come to us and say, "Hey, we view you as our international outsource Ecommerce team." Because we need to understand not only that I need to equip my US site to be able to speak to a consumer in China versus Singapore, versus Thailand and Canada and Australia and so on but, I also need to know what's the right proposition. How do I take insights and data and duty and tax? And what do I do with all of these different elements that are barriers to that customer buying? And how do we break it down so it's local to that consumer and market? And these are when I say quick to site and be ready for that type of volume to be hitting your site so that you're able to convert that customer, that's where Global-e comes into play. Stephanie: Got it. It seems like, you mentioned data earlier, it seems like you would have access to a ton of data from working with all these brands and seeing what works and what doesn't work. Tell us a little bit about some of the insights that you guys are seeing and also teaching your brands when it comes to selling internationally. Matthew: Sure. So I think the first thing that in an engagement with a brand that we have, right? Because there's brands of all different verticals, as you can imagine whether it be fashion and retail, whether it be beauty, whether it be footwear, streetwear and so on and so forth. So I think the one biggest insight in a lot of brands I would say, come to us for is, we want to understand what the rest of our vertical's doing. How are they being successful? What are they doing to target consumers? And let's just say all these parts of the world. So we really, I think from a data perspective, we consolidate it. And we sit on mountains of data that we can then drive from an insight's perspective to the brand that, "Hey, based off of where you're selling today and based off of where you should be selling tomorrow, we're going to help you build a strategy on let's just say end to end perspective. Right? Matthew: So it all starts from when the consumer hits the site, right? Currency, how are you going to show it? How are you going to also locally round that currency to make sure that it's a number that that consumer can relate to in that market. Down to duty and tax strategies, shipping propositions, and all of the elements that we know are going to have an impact to a consumer buying. And as an example of that for a few key markets that we can at least relate to, Canada. Canada is a market that acts very much like the US. And I'd say far too many US brands that we tend to see will typically treat, let's just say a Canadian shopper as they would a shopper within Singapore. And basically just take that product that they're selling and sell it at the same experience worldwide and say, "Okay. But, did I think that a Canadian customer is used to paying tax when they hit a local shop to buy the shirt?" They never ever see the term duty in market experience. Matthew: So on your site, you should never ever display duty and taxes as part of an overall transaction. Otherwise, that consumer's going to be shocked to see extra costs and abandon. And there's other elements to, how do we factor in duty into the product price? Because that's typically going to be a conversion driver for that Canadian consumer. And that goes even into markets like Europe and the UK, where it's that inclusive. The typical buying experience for a European consumer. So the second that a US brand now puts at the point of checkout duty and tax and breaks it out, it's going to cut their conversion in half. So these are the insights on a market by market basis where every country is and has to be looked at independently. And as far as too many times when we come into these conversations, our brand's just taking a single strategy for the world. And I think that's kind of one of the biggest opportunities to help our brand succeed. Stephanie: Got it. Yeah. That's great. How are you all staying on top of consumer preferences or making sure that you're staying on top of what's hot? You can think of WeChat, it came up pretty quickly. And how people are using it changes all the time it seems. How is you guys' company able to stay up with what people are expecting in different markets, and how they're buying? Matthew: Yes. I think honestly it has evolved over the years. I think as a mature business with a lot of mature brands that obviously we rely on and rely on us. Depending on which aspect you're looking out of the business, we've got a lot of robust technology internally that will help with that. So from a payment perspective, this is not going to be a single payment provider that's going to be able to take it to offering every single payment method that you need in your arsenal to be able to let's just say, service the world. I mean, enabling WeChat, Alipay, UnionPay into China's is critically important. But, to be able to enable that is a big challenge. So I think typically what we do to stay ahead of let's just say that front is we work very closely with our brands. Matthew: Like I said, there is a knowledge base out there with our brands that we've built up over these seven years that really drive and are a piece of driving our overall roadmap. So I think the voice of our customer is so critical that we continue to evolve, to adapt and definitely change. And then I think also internally with our focus only being cross border and international, we've built out the expertise, the knowledge and the data to understand that. And I think between the combination of the two, I think what we tend to do is always stay multiple steps ahead where a US brand can then focus their efforts on marketing on their US domestic market. And so for European brands, which is also no different. Stephanie: Yep. Makes sense. When I'm thinking about everything that's happening right now, it seems like there is a lot of buying shifts happening. But, I haven't really thought about maybe internationally, how the buying behaviors are changing. So I was hoping you could maybe touch on any trends or opportunities that you're seeing overseas right now that maybe other people can't spot because they don't have access to all the data that you do. Matthew: Where I was heading with it a minute ago is having a chat with myself. I think when we look at the brands, I think there's a lot of elements that we do bring from an insight's perspective. So when you look at the data, it's really a methodology around duty and tax we talked about. That's one very big element. How and what to do with duty and tax in every single market to showcase it. I think when you look at payments, another very big element like Alipay, you mentioned WeChat pay, UnionPay, all very important into China. But, then into other markets like Germany, where Klarna is a highly adopted installment type pay methods on all throughout the Nordics, it's critical and key. And you have to have that there in your arsenal to be able to convert a consumer or even acquire a consumer within that region. Matthew: And then I think we even get into let's just say the Netherlands, over 58% that as we see through our platform of all odors or within the Netherlands are paid with ideal. I think these are the elements when you look at duty and tax strategy, when you look at payment strategy, when you look at overall shipping strategy, right? You mentioned logistics carriers and the challenges that they're having today. Matthew: I think another element of that is from a logistics suite, offered your consumer a checkout, you need to make sure that that multi carrier approach is ready, equipped, and able to handle the volume that is going to be coming their way, especially as on a daily basis that can tell you our operations team is keeping up with the overall feedback from every single carrier from lane closures to lane impacted. Even just down to value, limitations and free ship thresholds and when to offer what. So I think as you look at the price strategy, the payment strategy, the duty and tax strategy, and you bring literally all of this together from a full end to end solution, that's really what obviously makes this a successful approach to brands. Stephanie: Cool. And are there any opportunities you see right now that are popping up? Or you're like, "I see a lot of maybe consumers internationally looking for this type of product." Or there's an unmet need here that could be solved. Any secrets that you have about these international markets? Matthew: I think for me, and typically what we tend to see in our market here is yes, brands come out of the gate saying, "Okay, I'm going to go international." What does that mean? That to a lot of our brands ends up meaning I want to focus my efforts on English speaking countries, such as Canada, UK, and Australia. And I think that's a good approach for brands to splash with. But, I think when you look at our business globally and we start to look at markets and regions, and then you call it... Any insights of secrets, I think right now what we've seen is the Gulf region. The Gulf region through COVID is a region that really has not decreased at all. And only seen a positive growth trends since, call it January of this year. Matthew: So when we let's just call it, are reaching like the peak of April, we saw over a 575% growth in year and year sales [inaudible 00:19:48], which basically the trend has only continued and accelerated May through June. So I think for me and a lot of what we're seeing, even specifically in that Gulf region with luxury with the UAE really accelerating with Saudi Arabia, with Kuwait, with Qatar. These are markets that brands never think in the US markets to put a strategy behind them. We're seeing such a huge growth globally that I think they're starting to rethink their strategies. Stephanie: Oh, that's a good one. And have they always been part of your arsenal or is that something also that you guys are pivoting a bit more into that area? Matthew: So, I think the beauty of what Global-e does with our brands is literally with a single integration, whether it be the currency, the hundred plus currencies that we enable. Or whether it be the 150 different payment methods that we offer, the duty and tax guarantee for limiting risk and liability to our brands, all of that pulled together in single integration, opens them up to the world. So the first thing is, make sure your site is set up for success. So that should a consumer from a certain market hit your site, then they're able to convert. And that is what Global-e does. And that enables let's just say, even the Gulf region out of the box. Matthew: And then it becomes, "Okay, now we've got a proper offering. Now conversion and sales is accelerated where we want it to be." And I think those second level conversations begin with the brands, their digital marketing teams, and how do I start acquiring new customers? How do I start really pushing my efforts to markets where I know that the demand is there and that I should not just waste my time trying to cover off all 220 countries and territories out there. Let's focus in major and majors. And let's really get a strategy together. This can have an impact to our overall celebration for business. Stephanie: Cool. So I'm thinking when it comes to international sales, the metrics that maybe you're providing back to your customers, or that you guys are looking at frequently, maybe differ a bit than US centric sales. What kind of metrics do you guys look at to see if things are going well? Matthew: So I think from our perspective that the major metrics that we tend to focus on with our brands is always going to be conversion rate. Conversion rate is something that as a hosted checkout solution, Global-e has a full impact on. So our brand's checkout is powered by Global-e as simply put. Meaning that we have hyper localized every element of that overall checkout. Which means if they're going to put in all of the effort from a marketing perspective to get that consumer to a point of checkout, we are going to make sure that they are going to buy. And I think when you look at the ability and the approach of that let's just say localization, conversion rate is always a forefront of what we look at with our brands. Matthew: And then I think sales growth, right? Sales growth as revenue is always going to be a second team metric that we 100% I would say, study and operate, and look at with our brands. And just full circle rounding it off as customer satisfaction. Even down to NPS scores with our brands that we share. And we look at down to the market level to make sure that if we're getting from some negative feedback in a certain market, why? How do we help better equip that experience from an Ecommerce perspective, to make sure that we're not just seeing and hearing that feedback but, we're actually it. Stephanie: Cool. When talking about negative feedback, I was just thinking about when launching a new product, it might be easier to think like, "Oh, I should go international." But, oftentimes people internationally don't like the same things maybe as the things that we like here. So, is there any advice or guiding that you do for these brands who maybe are like, "We want to go international, we want to go everywhere." Is there ever a time when you're like, "Actually, I'm pretty sure people in Asia would never use that." Like they don't like that. Matthew: No, I think from a brand perspective our approach is typically always going to be as a brand, it's the continuing drive to say the way that you've invested and looked at the domestic market. Not just from a fragmented perspective but, from a full end to end perspective, from the way that you talk to your customer, the way that you show them products, the way that you position products, the way that you promote products or free ship thresholds or show tax into certain markets. You can't do anything differently when it comes to international. The way that your strategies are built here domestically are not different than that of international. And when we really interact with our brand, it's specifically to help educate them on that overall fact because you're right, consumers expect different things in different markets. Matthew: And if you're not setting up your site for success to complete that, which is obviously what our biggest value add is, is that when our platform sits on top of your website, you don't have to worry about that anymore. Right? And you can now focus your effort on acquiring new business and new customers, which is really where brands want to be spending their time, especially the small and midsize ones who don't have these robust teams as some of the larger brands out there. You're talking to owners, you're talking to founders, you're talking to literally the folks that built this business from the ground up. Matthew: So they're involved on every single ticket that every single consumer puts through the site and they're reacting to it. That's why I think for them to not have the burden of thinking about currency, thinking about, "Hey, I have to now register my business in Australia or Norway, or Switzerland." Or what's happening in the UK with Brexit and how are duty in that threshold changing in a market like Canada, which is so important. This is stuff that they no longer have to think about. That's typically where we see the brands heading and we opened them up to the world so that they're truly giving an amazing experience for their consumers the first time it ever hits their site. Stephanie: Got it. Yeah. So it's essentially on the brands to make sure that they have a product that's good and that will sell internationally. Then you guys come in and take care of everything else. But, it's kind of up to them to do that due diligence and make sure that the product that they're about to bring internationally is actually a good fit for that market. Matthew: Absolutely. And I think when you look at the brands, obviously, product placement performance, they own and control the brand, right? At the end of the day the customer is the brand's customer. It's their data. They have access to all of this data. It's not ours, it's not our approach with the brands. It's always "Listen, we're going to push and give you all the bits of information that you need in order to market to that consumer." And then we also help through partnerships and other marketing channels, even let's just say bringing eyeballs to their site. And I think those are elements when you look at how can you help brands and how can you obviously look to convert that brand, it's super important. Stephanie: Cool. So you just mentioned bringing eyeballs to their site and that piqued my interest in what kind of effective channels are you guys seeing right now to bring new international customers to these brands? Matthew: Yeah. I'll give you one example that I think is a relevant one. And we mentioned because it kind of ties into the overall payment perspective that we mentioned with offering Klarna in Germany and the Nordic region. And Klarna is getting very active in the payment space, which we've just been following very, very closely. But, I think Klarna has done a very nice job of securing some dominance in that European market. So one of the elements that we've done is we've partnered with them. We said, "What can we do from a payment perspective to outreach to consumers?" How can we take our brands and put their products within the Klarna network of consumers that exist out there to let them know that this small little mid sized brand in the US exists? And that is something that we've done to help the brands just as an example, that is super important. And we've seen a lot of value and a lot of return from that where this is something in a market that just typically these brands have not even thought about putting dollars into. Stephanie: That's really interesting. It reminds me of earlier, when I was talking about products and may be opportunities. I mean, you hear that stuff happening, of people going on a vacation to Thailand, or like the guy who created red bull. They're oftentimes overseas, when they see something happening, they're like, "Oh, I see a method of doing this." Or I see something that people really enjoy. And they may sometimes bring it back to the US. But, that's also really interesting, kind of creating in a way an exchange that says, "Hey, here's a bunch of brands that you may not know about." And these overseas brands actually might want to tap into them as well. Matthew: Precisely. And then I think you get into a whole digital marketing effort that the brand really at that point takes a strong hold on, which we even sometimes will help them with. And I think when you look at it as, what are you doing from a marketing perspective? Is it Facebook? Is it Instagram? And how are you taking it from that digital perspective? And a lot of the brands that we market are specially through the times that we've had now, just really focusing hugely on Ecommerce. And how to tap into Ecommerce in two ways, either domestic or international. Because that's the world we're living in at this time which is supposed to really push the brands that had not had a firm strategy in Ecommerce to get there even quicker. Stephanie: Do you see any successful marketing efforts that are going on, that are similar themes among brands where they've shifted their marketing to this effort or another effort? And you see traction happening that maybe wouldn't have happened before COVID? Matthew: I think just more of the adoption of digital marketing efforts and spend into more markets outside of the US, Canada, Australia, and the UK. I think the first thing is really getting that digital marketing effort through whether it be Google, whether it be Instagram, whether it be Facebook. I mean, that is the traditional trend that I see as highly adopted right now across the brands that we work with. Each of them do it very differently. That's for sure. But, all in a unique way that's unique to their brand, where they build a personalized approach to build that trust with the consumer to get them to return. Matthew: So, I think for me, the channels have been pretty consistent in the adoption, like the ones I just mentioned. And then I think it's more about how do I now start focusing on where to do this next? And that is traditionally what I spend a decent amount of time with our brands, just talking about what is your strategy? What's the next market that you're going to push money into, where you can get a return? And here are some that we see as focus markets for your industry, leveraging what we've seen globally across the vast portfolio brands that it is that we work with. Stephanie: Cool. So when thinking about some of the challenges with cross border shipping, I'm thinking about the high shipping rates and maybe local return options. And like you mentioned earlier, duties and taxes, how would you go about stack ranking these priorities for a new Ecommerce shop? And starting to think about this, what are the things that you just need to have as number one priority because if you miss that you're done, whereas the other ones can get figured out along the way? Matthew: Yeah. So for me, I think the biggest aspect is having a full end to end approach. I know we talked about it a bit earlier where the customers from a US perspective are not going to miss a single instance of the way that the customer needs to be communicated to, talk to. And even down to the element of shipping checked out with. But, I think when you look at the backends and prioritization of what's most important internationally, I'd probably put a duty and tax pricing strategy first. I think when you look at the overall elements and barriers that may differ between that of a domestic transaction and that have an international one, duty is not something that many brands are equipped to handle. Matthew: And I think duty is something that brands can most likely understand how to find a solution to calculate. But, then I think the question comes into, how do I calculate duty and tax into every single market throughout the world? But, then most importantly, how, and what do I do through being taxed to make sure that the consumer see it in a way that they will buy. And we mentioned Europe being a really key market for that. If you're in Germany and you want to buy a sweater, you go into your sweater store and you buy that sweater, the experience that you're going to receive is that sweater will be valued at a hundred euros. And you're going to have nothing more to pay outside of that a hundred euro, call it VAT inclusive experience. Matthew: So, if you now try to talk to that German consumer in a way where you're saying, "Hey, check out my website. And I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to break out duty for you. I'm going to break out tax and another line item for you." That consumer's not going to relate to it. So I think if I had to stack rank them all, even though I think pulling the full end to end is necessary to truly make it work from payments to currency, to communication, to customer satisfaction, all of those elements, even down through checkout and translation of checkout. And the ability to recognize city where there is a city, or recognized state where there is a state, or province where there is a province. These are all elements that should be pulled together. But, I would put the duty and price strategy first because I think it is the biggest barrier that brands struggle with. Stephanie: Cool. Yeah. That's great. It's always good to know where to start. But, agree on having an end to end solution. So this is a little bit of a higher level question. But, I know there's been obviously a lot of shakeups when it comes to logistics, like we mentioned early on. Is there any new ways that you hear brands or that you're advising brands to prepare for? If there's another pandemic, if there's something else that happens that maybe interrupts the logistics and supply chain and all that kind of stuff, do you hear anything behind the scenes of like, okay, going forward, we have this new kind of model or strategy to kind of future-proof us a bit more? Matthew: That's a good question. I would say through COVID, what it's taught me and where I spent a lot more, let's just say time conversing than I thought I would have with brands was building contingency plans, when I came to realize that a lot of portfolio brands out there heavily reliant on a single logistics fulfillment center to manage their DTC business. And I think that as COVID hit and volumes doubled because stores closed and then fulfillment centers' staff had to be cut in half, I think that posed for a huge logistics challenge that not many brands retailers or 3PL fulfillment centers were quick to handle. Basically double peak volume in a non peak period, completely unannounced. So I think when you bring that all together, I spent a lot of time with our global brands specifically, who really came to us and said, "Hey, we have some opportunity here. Meaning we've got product in many different markets throughout the world." Matthew: So, if in fact, my facility in New Jersey shutdown tomorrow, obviously Global-e controls the technology elements of it but, the fulfillment piece they still own. So can we point our website for every single transaction, not change a thing for the consumer so that they're not impacted. Let's start pulling that product out of Hong Kong. And the answer is yes. I mean, it's something that we could have easily done and we did do. And I've built more contingency plans than I ever thought I would have had to with our brands to support them should this have happened. But, as I landed my plane, I think the biggest kind of lesson learned here for me, if I'm sitting in on the brand side is to say, what is my contingency plan? Should something like this come up again. And do I have... Or can I turn inventory, or one in another market or another destination or location should my facility in New Jersey get shut down? Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. So are there any disruptions that you see coming maybe to Ecommerce after all this kind of settles down a bit, that you've built contingency plans around? Matthew: I think for me, the acceleration that's going to continue, that started the second COVID hit to continuing to let's just say accelerate as each one of these markets, typically that got hit hard. Six to eight weeks post that time, really, we saw the recovery. And it's almost like the far East started and then Europe happened and then the US was kind of the latest to the table, which was super interesting. But, I think for me, what I'm seeing a lot of now is I speak to all of our brands on a regular basis, is we're seeing a lot more brands now equip their business to be more digitally native. I think the old model of taking product and putting it in inventory, in market next to that consumer and having a very highly driven brick and mortar strategy, has changed. Matthew: And I think that the more personalized brands that are equipped to continue to accelerate their digital strategy, is either doubling down or it's accelerating. And I think that that is to me, the biggest disruptor that I see coming in this landscape, which is the digitally native brands that exist out there that are highly emotional and personalized to their consumer, are really thriving during these times. And I think that we're seeing a lot of the larger, more complex brands that are out there start to really build accelerated strategies to make sure that they keep up. Stephanie: Very cool. So, if I'm a newbie with, I'm building my new Ecommerce company and I'm starting to think about going international, where can I actually look to find out what's happening behind the scenes at some of these brands? Maybe to see how are they operating their logistics or what is their playbook? Is there anywhere or communities or anything like that, that I can learn from other brands or see the behind the scenes of how it's working? Matthew: Yeah. I think typically there's going to be, from an education perspective, we see a lot of brands adopting different cross-border publications, different cross-border strategies through a lot of the conferences that have now become digital and more I would say highly even access. It's in the past, these trade shows and all these things that used to really thrive on required a lot of time, a lot of dedication, a lot of effort, a lot of money to be able to access. Matthew: And I think now what I'm seeing with these all go virtual is you're starting to see a lot more of adoption into these channels which is a lot easier to access. And I think when brands typically come and they're looking in the enabled arena, they learn quite a bit. And I think that is one of the things every time we do talk to a brand it's the first thing that they ask us. How is our peer group performing today? And are you happy with our conversion? And what changes can I make to be able to improve? And I think that's just one of the biggest I'd say value adds from a data and an insight perspective that brands look for. Stephanie: That's great. Yeah. I really liked the idea behind the virtual events are leveling the playing field. So now everyone can get access for either cheaper or free and not have to travel. And that's a really good point and a great place to start. Matthew: Yeah. For sure. Stephanie: Before we move on to the lightning round, is there any topic that you really wanted me to touch on or cover that you were hoping I would bring up? Matthew: No. I think a very wide gamut of everything, which is great. No, I am fine. Stephanie: Okay, cool. Yeah. I do like to go in different areas of the conversation. Matthew: All good. Stephanie: Yup. The lightening round, which is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Matthew, are you ready to go? Matthew: I am as ready as I will be. Stephanie: Alright. What's up next on your reading list? Matthew: Poof! My reading list, I would have to say Peppa Pig is one of the next books because my daughter is begging me to read it to her. So I will be most likely reading that this evening with her. It's between either Peppa pig or Star Wars books. I'm trying to twist one way, I'm not going to say which way. Stephanie: Peppa Pig. Matthew: Exactly. Peppa's super popular right now. Stephanie: Oh, I know. Matthew: That is the next step on my reading list. I have to be very honest. Stephanie: That is probably mine too. I like it. Yup. My son is obsessed with that as well. Alright. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Matthew: Netflix queue? Stephanie: No kid stuff. Matthew: No kid's stuff. Right now, I would say Dexter has been recommended highly to me and seems to get a lot of good ratings. So I think that with COVID now in place, my wife and I will saddle in and watch. And begin to accelerate the number of views that it seems [inaudible 00:42:42]. Stephanie: That's cool. Stephanie: So, if you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who was your first guest to be? Matthew: I think if I were to have a podcast, I would say my podcast will probably focus something around sustainability. I think that right now with everything that's happening in the world today, and when you look at just the impacts of COVID, and everything else that has happened in the world, I think that you're going to see a lot of brands really adopt sustainable activities and life in general. Even down to our arena, which is call it shipping and how to package materials and stuff. So I think when you look at it, that would be for sure my approach. Who would my first guest be? I think my first guest would probably be my mentor and my father. I would give him the opportunity to be the first guest on my show and at least jump in and be able to share that memory should that podcast take off. And I know that I could say that I started with a family member. Stephanie: Well, I like that. Yeah. We have been actually talking about starting a sustainability podcast. So now I have a perfect host. You're it. Matthew: You let me know. Stephanie: We'll call you up. Alright. One more. What is A, your favorite piece of tech or a new Ecommerce tool that makes you more efficient, or you're having success with? Matthew: What is the most? I would say right now for me there is a tool called Monday that we had used that has brought us a lot of efficiency in the overall arena of project management. So I think managing the level and the amounts of projects at a single time can be at times overwhelming. So within our project group it is a tool that we've adopted that I actually find very insightful because it really gives me a nicer view and a view and a clean view of the overall working structure of what we currently have to deploy and make sure that we continue to support each one of the brands in the queue, whether it be small, whether it be large. And get them out on time to hit their overall deadline to celebrate their Christmas. Stephanie: That is great. I will have to check that out. Well, Matthew, this has been an awesome conversation. We really did go all over the place. And I think our listeners will love it. Where can people find out more about you and Global-e? Matthew: So for me, I would say Global-e obviously hit our website, www.global-e.com. I think you'll learn a lot, right? I think a lot of the statistics, a lot of case studies, a lot of country market reports, a lot of different case studies and things that we've done is going to be there. You can engage us there. And obviously, we are happy to help any brand of any shape and size. So, if this becomes something that you'd love to engage us on, hit the website, submit your information, and we've got a team member in pretty much any part of the world that's going to be able to help you. This is an incredible thing to be part of at such a cool global brand that we are. Stephanie: Amazing. Cool. Well, thanks for effort. Thanks for listening everyone. And we will see you next time.  

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Leigh Hurst on the show to discuss breast cancer awareness.  Leigh Hurst is a breast cancer survivor and the founder of the Feel Your Boobies® Foundation, which she started to educate young women (under 40) by reminding them to "feel their boobies" - a call to action that can save their life. Feel Your Boobies® is one of the largest followed breast cancer awareness foundations on Facebook and has inspired women all over the world to feel for lumps starting before they are formally screened for breast cancer. And, most importantly, it has directly resulted in countless women finding lumps early and giving them a better shot at living a full, meaningful life after their diagnosis. The Feel Your Boobies® Foundation has been featured in The New York Times, New York Daily News, and other national publications. At one point, Feel Your Boobies® was the largest cause on Facebook, with more than 1 million supporters. In this episode, we discuss: -Leigh’s experience advocating for her own breast cancer diagnosis -The story behind the Feel Your Boobies Foundation -Why women need to prioritize self-care -The voices of breast cancer survivors in the book Say Something Big -And so much more! Resources Leigh Hurst Website Say Something Big Book Say Something Big Facebook Say Something Big Instagram Feel Your Boobies Website Feel Your Boobies Facebook Feel Your Boobies Twitter Feel Your Boobies Instagram      A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode! Learn more about the Redoc Patient Portal here.    For more information Leigh:   LEIGH HURST is a breast cancer survivor and the founder of the Feel Your Boobies® Foundation, which she started educate young women (under 40) by reminding them to feel their boobies - a call to action that can save their life. Feel Your Boobies® is one of the largest followed breast cancer awareness foundations on Facebook and has inspired women all over the world to feel for lumps starting before they are formally screened for breast cancer. And, most importantly, it has directly resulted in countless women finding lumps early and giving them a better shot at living a full, meaningful life after their diagnosis. The Feel Your Boobies® Foundation has been featured in The New York Times, New York Daily News, and other national publications. At one point, Feel Your Boobies® was the largest cause on Facebook, with more than 1 million supporters. Hurst is also the author of the new book, Say Something Big: Feel Your Boobies, Find Your Voice. Stories About Little Lumps Inspiring Big Change (Oct. 2020) Beyond her work with Feel Your Boobies®, Leigh regularly speaks to audiences large and small, sharing her own personal journey and inspiring others to “Say Something Big” amidst life’s hurdles and hardships. She resides in Pennsylvania with her family. Feel Your Boobies® uses innovation around media to reach women across the world with their important message. For more information, visit www.leighhurst.com or www.feelyourboobies.com, and connect with Leigh on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn.     Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy (00:01): Hi, Leigh, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on. Leigh Hurst (00:05): Thanks for having me, happy to be here. Karen Litzy (00:07): Yeah. And now we're in the month of October. And for those of people who don't know October is breast cancer awareness month. And in the past, I've had shows about breast cancer during the month of October, but this is the first time I am speaking to a breast cancer survivor. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story because I know it's going to be so helpful for other women and men listening to this podcast. So before we kind of get into everything, I'm going to just throw it over to you so that you can just kind of tell your story how old you were when you were diagnosed. How did you find out? So I'll send it over to you. Leigh Hurst (00:51): Okay, cool. Thank you. So I was officially diagnosed when I was 33 that I had felt the lump for some time leading up to the actual diagnosis. So I think I was probably around 30 or 31 when I started to notice the lump. And I was living in New York city at the time and I was a marathon runner. So really health conscious, certainly educated about my health felt very kind of plugged into that kind of thing. And for a little while, I didn't really think much about it. I just thought it was, you know, something no big deal. I really small breasts. So I felt like when I'd go to the doctors, I'd let them sort of do their exam of my breasts and they would never notice it until I would point it out. So I would literally take their hand, put it on my boob and say, this kind of feels a little different to me. Leigh Hurst (01:39): I don't know if you notice it or not. It's like a ridge on the outer side of my left breast and then they would feel it and then they would say, I don't really think that's anything to worry about. I had no family history, so I wasn't exceptionally worried about it. Although, as I know now, that's not necessarily a primary risk factor. It is, but most women diagnosed don't have a family history. So I was pacified about that for a while. You know, that kind of went on for maybe a year or two. I eventually decided to sort of simplify my life and I moved out in New York city. I was in a really kind of super corporate job, traveled a lot for my work on a weekly basis. And I was just trying to find ways to sort of step out of that. Leigh Hurst (02:20): And so I moved back to central PA, which is where I live now. I'm kinda got set up on a house was back near my family and it came time for my annual exam. And I went again to the doctors and again, it wasn't noticed, but I mentioned it and it was the first time someone's like, Oh, she probably should just get a mammogram. It can't hurt to sort of just see if it's something or not. So that's how it started and ended up having the mammogram showed some areas of concern, took me right in and did an ultrasound and eventually at the biopsy a couple of weeks later and it did turn out to be cancer. So that was 2004. And you know, needless to say, I was very concerned because I knew I had had the lump for quite some time, so I wasn't sure what to expect, but it didn't turn out to be stage one, so early stage breast cancer. Leigh Hurst (03:09): And so, yeah, that's kinda how it started with, you know, finding out that I had a lump and went through treatment. I decided to have a lumpectomy, the lump was small stage one had no lymph node involvement. So that was good. And I did do chemotherapy because I was young. So they suggested that because of being premenopausal and being so young at the time, it was some preventative. So I did chemotherapy than I did seven weeks of daily radiation treatment to the lump site. And then I took five years of a pill called Tamoxifen, which is estrogen reducing medicine at the time they were still prescribing it for five years. I believe now the regimen is 10 years. But so the actual treatment itself was about six months start to finish. And then it was the five years of the Tamoxifen following that. Karen Litzy (03:59): And at the age of 33, you must have been kind of shocked. Right. Cause it's not something that we hear a lot of, you know, like even to get a mammogram, they don't suggest getting a mammogram until you're 40. Leigh Hurst (04:15): Correct. Yeah. And you know, it was, you know, looking back on it, I remember thinking, gosh, I never talked about breast cancer, never talked about it. I didn't know anybody who had had it. I'm not even really sure. I knew anybody who’s mother that had had it. So I was really taken aback by that when I was diagnosed and I was single at the time really hadn't thought about having a family quite yet. You know, I was living in the city, it was very common to still be kind of doing your thing. And so there are other issues that came up other than of course the life or death issue with breast cancer. There were the other possibilities of losing your fertility through chemo. Certainly that's a possibility certain decisions that you might be faced with can also, you know, if you decide to remove any of your female organs, ovaries, whatever, to minimize your risk, of course, those are big decisions when you haven't started a family yet. Leigh Hurst (05:08): And I wasn't really sure I was going up, but I didn't want that choice to be taken away from me. I didn't want it to be something that I couldn't do at a later date. So yeah, it was, it was shocking. And you know, out of that, I really started to like, think about why didn't I talk about this? Why didn't I think about this? And so that's kind of how the feel your boobies idea came about is that I just made some t-shirts for friends. Cause I would joke around during my treatment, I was actually still running and I didn't get sick. So I was really happy about that. And I just made sure that said, feel your boobies for fun. I'd always wanted to make t-shirts. I was kinda crafty kind of thing, you know, hobbies on the side. Leigh Hurst (05:47): And so my friend and I mocked up a tee shirt and I got a hundred made, put a website up, my background's in technology based learning. So I was kind of techie and I'm just send it around to my friends that had lived in the cities where I had moved after grad school. And I started selling shirts to people. I didn't know, very quickly, it just kind of went viral. I was getting checks in the mail from people. I had no idea who they were. And so, you know, that whole idea of, of using a message, like feel your boobies, which is lighthearted, but very pointed in terms of what it's trying to get you to do. Made me think about, you know, is this really creating behavior change? Is this creating a meaningful dialogue among a population of women like me that never really talked about it before? Or if they did, it was the third serious town and it was about their mother or it was in the context of a doctor's office. And so to that accidental t-shirt, that was just a hobby sort of evolved in time into something that took over my life quite honestly, and quickly I had to figure out what I was doing with it. So that's how the foundation itself came to be. Karen Litzy (06:53): Yeah. It's amazing. The things that happen to you that can just do a 180 and change your life. Right. So you could have had this diagnosis and then just went on and got a job and just went on your way. Right. But instead you were like, wait a second, like I'm young, I never talked about this. There's gotta be other people out there just like me. So how can I reach them? Leigh Hurst (07:15): Right, right. Sort of back fitting it. Right. Because I didn't create the tee shirt with that in mind, but I watched it happen. And that started to make sense to me with my background in behavior theory and that kind of thing. And so I kind of ran with it and, you know, we were able to support ourselves for quite some time just through t-shirt sales. So fortuitously, unlike other nonprofits that you know, have to submit for grants and you know, really the funding side of it is the tricky part. We were fortunate in those early days the t-shirt sales themselves allowed us to do a lot of creative things through social media before that was a standard way of spreading our message. And so we really tried to leverage the idea of media and the peer to peer sharing because what I saw when somebody would wear the tee shirts, like a happy hour or a cookout was I was watching like a 20 something talk to another 20 something or a guy even who might say your shirt says feel your boobies. Leigh Hurst (08:16): Can I feel your boobies? And then they would say, it's not about that. It's about breast cancer. Or you got to feel your boobs to see if you find a lump. And to me that was a productive conversation. It was somebody articulating something very simple, but in a playful and a more friendly and lighthearted way than trying to impart stats or other types of things that I think a lot of campaigns do, or certainly they have the aesthetic and the sensibility that feels like it's for an older woman. So you may relate to it because you're trying to just be proactive and educate yourself about health. But the messaging itself is not really created for you. It's not created for the younger population, the style of the images, the style of the graphics, and even the use of the channel that you use to spread it. Leigh Hurst (09:01): Right? So a tee shirts, just one way you can not, but you can do that in many other ways. You know, we flew aerial banners up and down the Jersey shore in the summertime on all the very populated beaches. And I'm thinking of these young women that are like dragging themselves out to the beach after going out Friday night. And they see a, you know aerial banner and they say, Oh my God, that says feel your boobies. And I'm like, that's wonderful. That's a great way to kind of intersect with them where they are in a way that they can relate to. And, you know, it's created testimonials from women that say, that's why they found their lumps. So very proud of the campaign. And eventually I went on and left my corporate career and ran the foundation full time. So it really wouldn't do that 180 for me, that you mentioned about changing your life. It was definitely that for me. Karen Litzy (09:50): Yeah. So we can definitely see how your life has changed after diagnosis, but what are the big lessons that you learned? Leigh Hurst (10:00): Well, you know, I definitely learned I'm type A, very much of an ambitious overachiever and, you know, Karen Litzy (10:06): Well, I mean, you were in New York city in a corporate job, we get it, that came across. Leigh Hurst (10:12): Right. And so you kind of like play these scripts out in your head. Like I really should slow down this. Isn't really how I want to spend my time. I'm really too busy. I wish I could make more time for X and part of my move home quite honestly, before breast cancer was in an effort to sort of really operationalize some of that stuff to sort of extract myself out of the environment that wasn't really fueling me anymore. It was draining me. And so, you know, earlier in my career, there's coast to coast flights on a Monday morning to get to a meeting on time. That was exciting. And as I got older, I'm kind of like, I don't really want to do that anymore. I don't care how much money I make. I don't want to be on a plane. I want to be involved in the place that I live. Leigh Hurst (10:55): And so my move was in part to get that going right, to really start to be outside more to, you know, I decided to go part time cause I kept my job in New York city. So I didn't need the amount of money I was making where I lived anymore. But I didn't truly step out like that until breast cancer came. And then I quite honestly, I got depressed at the end of my treatment, I got depressed and I took three months off work. I called it my be nice to me times. So I like got weekly massages. I went to get therapy because I felt like I needed to sort of sort through some things, you know, I felt like I should be getting back to normal, but nothing about my life felt normal. Everything had changed, you know, whether or not. Leigh Hurst (11:39): So I think during that time is when I started to realize what it meant to say no, that you can say no and not give a reason. And that having lots and lots of friends, which I had is great, but having a lot or having fewer really good friends became more important to me. People that I could really keep in touch with and have meaningful conversations. And my family quite honestly, too, was a big part of that. So I would say that that was the biggest thing slowing down. And I still struggle with that because that's not my genetic makeup. My genetic makeup is to, you know, attack a problem, and make a change and go through something like breast cancer, trying to get back to normal is tricky because you really can't change the future. You never know if it's going to come back. Leigh Hurst (12:26): That's just a fact with breast cancer. And so I think learning to live with the ambiguity of not knowing, you know, and accepting that, truly accepting that that kind of translates out into other parts of your life, where you can, if you really allow yourself to sit in that space, you can apply that to other uncomfortable things that come up, right. Things that happen with your job or relationships or other things that make you feel anxious. Like you want to make a change or you want a resolution immediately. I think I have a better sense of pause around that where I trust that in time things will sort themselves out and I will have a greater sense of peace around whatever it is. I'm stressing about things that came out of that period of time in my life. Yeah. That's so powerful. I don't do it well by the way, but I work at it all the time. Karen Litzy (13:19): Well, I mean, I think the fact that you were able to identify that as, Hey, listen, this is something that I know I need to work on. And of course we're all a work in progress. Nothing's perfect. But to just be able to recognize that and say, I need to make a change. Like this is too much, that's so powerful. And then to be able to kind of leave the city, move to central PA and say, I know I'm doing this for me. And that was even before the diagnosis. So you were already, you know, heading in that direction. And I also really appreciate that. You said at the end of treatment that you were depressed, that you were unsure, you know, because I think oftentimes when people see breast cancer survivors or they hear from, or just looking at a picture, let's say, right, it's a person smiling or it's I beat it, or, but you don't really get into the background of that. Leigh Hurst (14:22): I talk about the mental health side all the time, because I think it is something that's not discussed as much as it should be and not everybody gets depressed, but I do think everybody has down days. Of course, I mean, when you're struggling with something that's life or death and that happens at different times for different people. For me, I was fight or flight during the treatment. For me, it was like a project, right. I knew I had a plan and I had to do it. And the tricky part for me was when I entered into that gray space where I was kind of released from all of that care. And I had to make sense of my life on a day to day basis, be my own cheerleader, quiet those voices in my head that would raise all those scary thoughts and realize that this was going to be forever. You know, like you can't let this consume you. And you know, being brave enough to say I'm depressed. I wasn't brave enough to say that right away. You know, I went into therapy, very hesitantly feeling like, what do you have to be upset about? It was stage one, you got through it, shouldn't you be happy with it? Karen Litzy (15:22): That self-defeating language, right? There's someone worse off than you. Leigh Hurst (15:27): Right? So therefore you can't feel any sort of emotion around your own words is not true and very dangerous by the way. And so, you know, I really try to bring that up when I speak to women who are going through it or who have gone through it, who I sense might be struggling with a little bit of that, because there's so much, and it's different for everybody. If you might be balancing kids, I wasn't, but it might be balancing kids, little children and trying to mask what you're going through to keep them from being afraid. And so that you're hiding your own emotions for some period of time, or same thing goes for spouses that can have issues. So finding a place where you can be truly honest with your own feelings and dealing with that is I think really important because it delays your ability to heal. If you don't find your way. Karen Litzy (16:18): You have to say to yourself, okay, this is the situation and I need to live with this. What's the best way I can move forward. Right. We discussed that a lot with people who have like chronic pain. So the pain may never go away, but can you get to a point where you're still doing all the things you want to do, but in order to do that, you kind of have to accept it. Leigh Hurst (16:48): Yeah. And the way you choose to do that, whatever steps you take to make that possible in your life. The biggest thing for me was realizing that other people don't have to get it right. Like if I had a choice, things that make me able to have good days or days that I need to step out for a little bit, I don't have, I shouldn't have to worry, or I can't worry if that makes sense to somebody else, because the only thing I can do is reconcile within myself. What makes me the best version of me, the fullest version of me, for the people that need me. And the way I choose to do that is probably not going to be the same as the way someone else chooses to do that, or should it yeah. Nor should it be. Right. So looking for affirmation about those decisions outside of yourself is a real challenge. You know, if you're a pleaser or you're, you know, sometimes you just gotta bone up and do what you have to do, right. You always just satisfy your needs. But the times when you have choices to flake out on plan that you just don't feel up for, or push something that you thought you should do today to tomorrow those things are okay to do, and you don't need someone else to tell you they're okay. Karen Litzy (18:01): Right, right. It comes down to like giving yourself the permission and the grace and the ability to do what you need. Like you said, to do what you need to do in the moment at that time, that's going to be best for you. That's going to allow you to show up fully as the person you need to be. Leigh Hurst (18:20): Right. Yeah. That makes total sense. I thought it was a great way of putting it as like self care is not the same as selfish. So making those choices, you have to be, you know, polite, honest, a good person when you're doing all of those things, but taking care of yourself, the self care part of it is not being selfish. It's about being in touch with what makes you the good person that you are. Karen Litzy (18:46): Right. And I think also being able to communicate that to someone maybe it's your partner or your spouse or your children or work, I think the way you go about communicating, that makes all the difference, right. Because there's a difference between, listen, right now, maybe you might have felt, you know, I just need to be by myself for a couple of hours, you know, that's what's best for me, but if you don't communicate that properly or if you just flake out and go stout on people like that is not that that's how you, you create a lot of friction. Right. So what advice would you give to people if they do have to make these decisions to do what's best for them? What's the best kind of language? Cause I know you're very good at communication and all that other stuff. Leigh Hurst (19:38): So I have two small children. I had kids after breast cancer and I'm a single mom now. And I was since they were very little good friends with their father and all of that, but still, you know, being I'm 50 now, but I was 40 and 42 when I had them. And so, you know, the loss of independence around raising two children alone when you're used to like literally flying coast to coast, you know, rewind five years. And it was like, the world was at your feet. So I found myself becoming extremely protective of my space when they were not with me. And, you know, so I was very cautious about making plans. And I would just be honest about that if it was a weekend that I didn't have them and somebody invited me to go away for example, Oh, we're having a girl's weekend. Leigh Hurst (20:24): We're going to go to a winery. Do you want to come? And I would say, well, I might, I might want to come if you need a commitment though. I can't commit because a lot of times when the kids go away, I just like to have some quiet time to myself. I don't like to come back from a weekend and be tired. So I would, I mean, that's just being honest, you know, some things, those are, it's not as easy as something like that, but you know, I think with work where there's deadlines and it's a little trickier to push things off I've gotten better at prioritizing where I'll say it has not really in it today. I know I said I would have this by two o'clock is it possible I could have it tomorrow by maybe 10. So I'm not telling them all the inner workings of what's going on in my brain, but I'm floating the idea that I'd like to shift the priority around because I think it would work better for my mental state. You know, so those are just some ideas for how I do it. Karen Litzy (21:20): Yeah. That's great. That's great. Thanks for sharing that. And now what I'd also like to talk about is your book. So you're about to release, well, this will be out the first weekend of October. So the book should hopefully be out by then, right? They will be. Okay. Perfect. So say something big, feel your boobies, find your voice stories about little lumps, inspiring, big change. So first of all, congratulations, because writing a book is no joke. So tell us a little bit about why you wrote the book and what's in it. Leigh Hurst (21:57): So I wanted to write this book for quite some time. You know, I do a lot of speaking and people often say, Oh, your story is so inspiring about how you just created something and then you ran with it and you saved lives. And now you have this big foundation. And I do realize that that's inspirational, but I kind of tire of my own story over time. So every time I would sit down and try to write about it, I was like, Oh my gosh. But what I found inspirational enough to get me going this time. And it was really an honor of our 15th anniversary, which was last year. I was hoping to have it done by them, but that's the 15th anniversary of the foundation. And it was also my anniversary from breast cancer is the same as the foundations university. Leigh Hurst (22:39): So I started writing it back then and the way I got inspired to really get into it was as I started writing about my own story, I was things were coming to mind about these other women that I had met over time through my path, as you know, being very involved in the breast cancer community and quite honestly, their stories while different were very similar. So they were young when they were diagnosed, they found their own lump and they made some sort of change that was remarkable that they hadn't really pivoted from one path to another and really in an effort to give back. And so, as I started seeing that sort of common thread through some other women that I respected, I thought, well, what if I wove their stories into mine? And so, you know, our stories are different. So how I felt it, this part of the journey, you know, when I found the lump, the way I found it is different than the way one of the other women found it and how I felt during chemo is a lot different than the way some other people felt during chemo. Leigh Hurst (23:38): So if I can weave their stories in to mine, then it will relate to so many more people because can kind of say, Oh, I really relate to Leigh. When she was deciding if she wanted to have a mastectomy or lumpectomy, but I really, really related to Holly during chemo, cause I'm really struggling with it. And she struggled with it too. And so there's lots of tidbits of inspiration and advice that come out of all of these stories. And so after each chapter, I write a little piece that's called big lessons from little lumps. And it's basically trying to suss out the things that I felt were common through each of the women's stories at each stage of the breast cancer journey. And then of course at the end, you know, they've all sort of found their voice. They've started their own nonprofits, where they started a company to create underwear, lingerie line that's meant to make you feel sexy, even if you've had your breast removed. Leigh Hurst (24:35): And that was because that particular survivor did not feel sexy after she was diagnosed and had surgery and she was a designer. So she decided to do that. And so I just found great inspiration and listening to their stories and trying to weave them into mine. And, really at the end of the entire book, what I found were basically three ideas that I saw across all the women that I think can relate to anybody that's going through any sort of difficult time, not just breast cancer. And one of them was that I really noticed that each woman found a frame for their situation that really focused on the idea of looking forward into the future versus looking only backwards and only wishing they could redo it differently. Right? Like being sad about what had happened. They all had those emotions, but the way they ultimately framed things was with the idea of looking forward. Leigh Hurst (25:31): Then each of them also talked a lot about finding a passion, something that really, you know, gave them those goosebumps or that feeling you get in your stomach when you're doing something right. And that is what they chose to spend their time on. And they really made an effort to strip anything out of their life that got in the way of them being able to focus on that type of activity. And then the thing that we talked about earlier, but the third thing is that they all recognize that change is continuous, right? It's not like you flip a switch and say, I'm going to make this change, or I'm going to start fuel your movies. And all of a sudden I'm happy because I started a nonprofit and it does good things. I mean, it has all the same challenges that a normal job has. Leigh Hurst (26:11): So change is truly this continuous thing, but because of the passion and they're focused on the future, they were able to realize that, sure, there's going to be some bad days throughout this process, but nothing is going to get in the way of my path to create this change towards the way I really want to live my life. And I found that so powerful when I saw that kind of trend throughout each woman. And I really think a lot of people will benefit from watching how each of them kind of, you know, injected that into their own lives. Karen Litzy (26:44): And isn't it amazing how storytelling creates such great learning moments, right? I think that's the way to do it. People they remember the stories, they think it's digestible, they internalize it. Like you said, what someone may not relate to you, but they may relate to someone else in the book. And it's those stories that weave through that come up with these great themes that anyone can relate to. So I just always think that I'm such a huge fan of storytelling and storytelling makes things real and relatable. Leigh Hurst (27:16): And I think that's an important way. It's one of the things we try to do with the foundation too, is when we do provide messaging or things, we try to really make it relatable. And that we're telling a story about someone who is real, someone who was young when they were diagnosed. So when you say that looks like me, I can relate to that. I also think women who are brave enough to share their story and I, by no means think it's wrong to not share your story. I think you're a private person and that's how you heal, then that's what you should pay attention to. But for those who choose to, and they don't always realize they've chosen to one of the women in the books that she never talked about it. The first time she was diagnosed, she was 26 and she was embarrassed. Leigh Hurst (27:56): And then she unfortunately was rediagnosed nine years later with metastatic cancer at 45, which means it's terminal. And at that point she really became braver to start talking about it and she realized how much strength she got from sharing her story. And so I think when women put their stories out there they have no idea how many people they touch when they do it, because no one's gonna necessarily walk up to you and say, I really respect that. You said that, or I want you to know that that really made a change in my life that day, but it does. It does. And it goes beyond what you will ever actually know. Karen Litzy (28:32): Absolutely. Yeah. And I love that sort of women pushing other women forward and building them up and paying it forward. It's just such a lovely, a lovely lesson for anyone. But as we all know, you know, the power of women in groups is very powerful. Leigh Hurst (28:52): Unstoppable. Exactly. Karen Litzy (28:54): Exactly. That's better unstoppable. Yes, absolutely. And so before we kind of wrap things up, what I would love from you is what would you like the audience to sort of take away from maybe from your experience or from our talk today? Cause I know that you do and you also, I also want to point out that you also talked to a lot of young people, college students, things like that, right? Leigh Hurst (29:18): Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah. So one of the aspects of our campaign in the past has been what we call our college outreach program, which we provided free materials to college health centers nationally through sororities and women's centers and so forth. And that was in an effort to get our message out to the college campuses. And we've also started running a media campaign which we did last year called are you doing it was a minority outreach campaign focused on young African American women in low income areas. African American women have a higher, are diagnosed at an earlier age than white women. And once they're diagnosed, they have a higher mortality rate as well. And so it's a very important audience to target. And so we funded a campaign that leveraged billboards, bus shelters, bus wraps, as well as targeted digital outreach to that demographic of women specifically to spread the message and that incorporated five local survivors, real survivors who were diagnosed at a young age, we did a photo shoot, shot a video with them. Leigh Hurst (30:22): And we shared that through all the channels that I mentioned, but we got over 6.2 million impressions with that campaign. Amazing. Very amazing. So, yeah. So we reach out to that younger population, like you mentioned in a lot of different ways, but I mean, I think if you asked me what the one thing is, I want someone to take away is that, you know, it sounds cliche, but I really do believe that one voice matters. I feel like the ripple effect from one person's passion and when one person's devotion to an idea can really make a difference and they don't have to be big actions. The things that you choose to do, don't have to necessarily change the world, but you can start small. And the actions that you choose, the words that you choose and how you choose to navigate your life, I think affects other people. And this book really showed me that in the smallest of ways, people can have the biggest impact in their communities and in other people's lives. And that's, I think that's a really great lesson for anybody to take away. Karen Litzy (31:24): Absolutely. And now if people want to get in touch with you, where can they find you? Where can they find the book? Leigh Hurst (31:31): So the book will be available on Amazon. Starting October 1st, I believe. You can read more about the book leighhurst.com. You can follow the book on Facebook, which is, say something big as well and Instagram to say something big. So those are all the channels. And then of course, if you're interested in feel your boobies and the work that we do, the Facebook pages you know, at feelyourboobies on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, and our website is feelyourboobies.com. Karen Litzy (32:08): Awesome. And we'll get all of those links. So for everyone, if you don't have something to take it down, or you're not right in front of the computer, we'll have all of the links. You can go to podcast.healthywealthysmart.com. And we'll have a quick link to everything that Leigh mentioned today throughout the podcast. So not to worry, everything will be right there. So Leigh, thank you so much for sharing your story. I just know, like you said, even if one person hears this and they say, Oh, well maybe I will feel my boobies, mission accomplished. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and coming on the podcast. I appreciate it. And everyone out there listening. Thank you so much. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.     Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts

Interested in a Clarity Coaching Day? Contact Jamie directly on Instagram @JamieMSwanson Sign up for the Bright Future Method Workshop Waitlist here Sign up for email reminders here Join the Insider's Telegram Channel Here Transcript: I have got dozens and dozens and dozens of launches under my belt. At this point, since I've been running my online business full time since 2011, I've brought in multiple seven figures of income, mostly through launches. And I have learned over the years that the tactic that you use to launch isn't nearly as important as understanding why do these tactics actually work and what needs to happen in order for a launch to be effective? So in today's episode, I want to share with you the things that I was considering as I prepared for a. Beautiful, but very tiny launch on very little time and with very little help so that I could maximize the results that I got. [00:00:51] So coming into this launch, I only had 66 people signed up for my email list, 66 that's it it's like the tiniest little email launch ever, you know, like I've had over 120,000 people on an email list for my photography business. So going to launching from multiple thousands of people to launching two 66, people took. [00:01:45] Big shift in mindset. So as I was preparing for this, knowing what I know, no now as a bright entrepreneur with all sorts of experience behind me, I knew that the more personal I could be with my people and the more I could make deep connections with my people, the more effective my launch would be. In fact, you know, I was putting into you other stuff I didn't need. [00:02:08] Okay. Let's let's just talk about how crazy this was. I did not even have a sales page on the first day of open cart. All I had was an order form and. I didn't even get a video or anything up until the next day now. So I literally set up my sales page in like 90 minutes. [00:02:26]Because I know that I get really sucked in and I want it to be perfect. And I know writing really great copy takes awhile. And I knew that if I didn't set a timer for myself and give myself a limit on how long I was allowed to spend time working on the sales page that I would spend. [00:02:41] All of my time there and that it wouldn't be nearly as effective as the other things that I wanted to do, which I'll explain to you in a minute. So I made a really basic sales page, super duper basic, started with a problem, talked about my solution. shared a few. Case studies and talked about what was actually going to be covered in the course and how it was going to work and then had a call to action to join the workshop. [00:03:06] I should call it a workshop. It's kind of like a course workshop, whatever, just like the term workshop better. So anyways, it doesn't matter. So I did that super, super first draftee. They barely even have finished first draft missing, all sorts of elements that you should find on a really persuasive sales page, super effective sales page. [00:03:25] I know all the stuff that should go into it. And yet I got it done. Done is better than perfect. Right? So that's one thing that you should know going into this just a total side note is better to be done in launch and not have it to be perfect than to not take action and keep waiting. But what I did instead, the place that I spent the majority of my time was in two places, number one, and getting content out on a mass basis, which was for me, This podcast. In fact, you can go back and listen to the five episodes that I created to promote the enrollment period of my launch. [00:04:03] And frankly, I kind of put those together last minute as well. They were not scripted. Normally I like to script things that are more of a sales. Type of, you know, selling mechanism, so to speak, not scripted at all, totally off the cuff, but it spoke to my heart. So we had that and then emails to back them up so that people could know that these were happening and get some of their questions answered via email to the whole 66 people who were signed up. [00:04:29] I just laugh because it's such a tiny number. It's fine. It's it was great though. But then the thing that I really focused on the second. Thing was, getting really personal and trying to have as many, one on one conversations with the people as I could, you can reach out when you've got 66 people and talk to every single one or at least try to. [00:04:51] And so that's what I did. I used a software called video ask, which I absolutely. Love it's, there's a lot of different uses for it. Honestly, I think it's best for collecting testimonials and feedback from your people, but it allowed me to send custom videos to everybody who had signed up either for my waitlist or for my podcast. [00:05:08] No, those combined were 66 people just to be really, really clear here, not a lot of people. So I spent a few hours one day after I. Made my sales page. You know, I put my timer on, finished my sales page. It's a good enough tested it to make sure it worked. And then I went and I sent customized videos to every single person and asked to get to know them better. [00:05:29] Let them know that the bright future method workshop was open and invited them to join. And it was very simple. The video messages were around 90 seconds long give or take a little bit, but they were different for every single person. I use their name in the video. I spoke to them directly. Okay. If I knew some of them or I'd had conversations with some of them prior, I reached out and I mentioned our prior conversations or. [00:05:54] Bring details into the video that would show them that I remembered who they were. And I also reached out to a couple people on Instagram or Facebook that I had had some conversations with and ask them personally, if they were interested in joining now, you can't do this. When you've got 66,000 people signed up for your email list and you're launching to the masses. [00:06:15] But when you're small, you can add absolutely get super personal like this. And the benefits are twofold. Number one. It's far more effective when you can reach out to somebody personally. So anytime you can leverage that personal touch in a real way, that's going to be. Far more effective when it comes to selling than just sending an email that you're sending to everybody else, the more personal and specific you can get to the person you're talking to, the more effective and relevant your message is going to be for them guarantee. [00:06:48] And so few people are doing this, that it really stands out from the crowd to have this happening. . But the second benefit is, is that you learn your people inside out when you talk to them personally. So the software I was using allowed them to send a video or an audio or a text right back to my phone. [00:07:07] So we could have a conversation right then. And right there. Now this shaped my messaging for the entire launch. There were things that people said in their responses that I was like, Oh man, I didn't even think about that as being an issue that were incredibly helpful for me in shaping my messaging. And I would never have known had I not reached out to them personally. [00:07:32] So not only is it more effective in helping get more people into your. Business, whether it's into a course or a membership or whatever it is you're selling, but it's also going to help you get Supreme clarity on the messaging that you need to use in order to have an effective leader. No, I cannot tell you how important having clear messaging is. [00:07:55] It's why we spend so much time focusing on that and the bright future method workshop, because the more clearly you can communicate your message, the more. Easily people can like no off the bat, if your product service membership, whatever it is, whatever your offer is, if that's really a good fit for them, they should know pretty quick. [00:08:17] If this is something they want or need. And if this is going to be a good fit for them. So when our messaging is tight, man, everything falls into place. So being personal, building these relationships and reaching out people one-on-one helped me get. A very high conversion rate on a very tiny list made over $10,000 from 66 people, which is pretty dang impressive when you look at all the numbers and break them down. [00:08:42] But also Gabe me so much clarity on how I could strengthen my message, which you should always be strengthening. Every time you launch, no matter how long you've been launching your product, you should become more and more clear every single year that you launch every single time that you launch, because you have these conversations because you hear the questions they're asking because you better understand your people. [00:09:08] So I would say without a doubt, The one thing that I have learned through all of these years from launching that makes the biggest difference and launches, and the final results is building a true relationship with your people, connecting with them as personally, as you possibly can. And now that's going to look absolutely different, whether you have 66 people or 6,000 people or 60,000 people. [00:09:35] You're going to do it in different ways and that's okay. But the more you can connect with them, the more you can build that relationship with them, the more that you can talk with them and make them feel like you're having a conversation with them instead of just talking at them or to them. The more effective your launches are going to be. [00:09:56] So the tactics in this case are less important than the underlying principle of building connection and really connecting. And building that relationship on a personal level with them. In fact, this was verified because when people come into my group, I asked them, why did you decide to join? Cause we're doing this within a Facebook group. [00:10:19] So they just bought, they literally just bought, they go to a landing page that gives them a button to, come and request to join the group where we're going to be doing our discussion for the course, the workshop. And so I ask them what made you decide to join? Every single person. And this blew me away because this is not normally the case with big launches. [00:10:39] In this case, every single person that came into the workshop said some variation of. I joined because of you, I believe in you. I, I trust that you can help me get the results that I, I want. It blew me away. It blew me away. You can do all of them mechanics completely. Right. But if you don't have relationship, if you do not have trust, if you do not. [00:11:09] Build that connection with your people, whether it's one-on-one individually with a smaller audience, or whether you scale that connection on a larger scale using, you know, stories and all sorts of tactics that I talked about a lot in the first season of this podcast. So I'll let you go back and find them, but if you're not building that connection and that relationship, your launches, your business , [00:11:33]they're just not going to be as effective as they could be relationship and trust and connection trumps all. So if you're listening to this and you're thinking, man, how do I build that relationship with my people? [00:11:48] What kinds of things can I do at whatever? Part of the business you're in whatever size you are to build that relationship, to build that connection without sucking up all of my time and all of my attention and draining all of my energy. And you want some help getting clarity and figuring that out. I've got a few clarity coaching days open still this fall. And if you want to work with me for an entire day and get super clear on how you can build that relationship, how you can build that connection and what tactics are going to be best for you, whatever size business you have. In order to build that connection and get better results. [00:12:30] I would love to work with you because if I had tried to do that, the same things that I did for the big launches back when I was doing this to thousands and thousands of people, I firmly believe it would have fallen flat on its face because you can't build the same kind of connection and get the kind of conversion rates that I got. [00:12:51] When you're doing it for the masses like that, cause you can't build the depth of connection that I was able to with a tiny yeah. List. Because when it's tiny, you have the time, right. Capacity to reach out more personally. Right. But when you have these big lists or even a medium list and you can't reach out to every single person individually, there are absolutely ways that you can scale that connection. [00:13:12] You can scale that relationship building and the most effective way for you to do that. It is going to be, to use a tactic that's most aligned with who you are as a person. And there's lots of different ways to do it. Like I said, I know pretty much all of them I've tried every one then before I realized that the stuff that works best is the stuff that really is aligned with who I am and what my gifts are. [00:13:35] So, if you want help, figuring out how to pick a tactic, that's really going to work with you. That's aligned with you, and that is perfect for the size of your audience. And if you want help getting clarity on the messaging or planning out a challenge or any of those things, one of the clarity coaching days would be a perfect fit for you. [00:13:56] So if you have any interest in doing this. And I would love to do it. There's nothing more fun for me than sitting down with somebody and really helping them. Layout, all the things on the table and getting really clear on, okay. Which ones need to be focused on, how we can fill in the gaps, how we can clarify the messaging, move forward and really. [00:14:19] Make a lot of progress quickly. It just, it just lights me up. It's like my favorite thing to do. So if you would like somebody to have to take a peek at your business and help you figure out the strategies, the tactics you should be using to go from where you are now to wherever it is you want to be next. [00:14:36] Reach out my contact information is in the show notes. And I would love to talk with you personally and see if a clarity coaching day would be a good fit for you. Now I'll be straight up honest. These are not cheap. They are several thousand dollars, but it will save you some how much time. [00:14:56] And honestly, you probably do not need more courses or more learning what most people need to get out of that messy middle and really start growing fast. Last is clarity. Now I have my bright future method workshop, where I help people create the plan and they, they learn the framework for how to do it. [00:15:15] They do it themselves, but a clarity coaching day is you actually get to work with me personally for the entire day. And you come out of it with a step plan to move forward towards your next goal and a ton of clarity on what you should be focused on and what you shouldn't. And that's my goal because when we have clarity, we can move fast. [00:15:33] When we know what we need to do, we can get her done and make it happen. And I'm so good at working with people and helping them find strategies and tactics that are aligned with their gifts. So, if you want to do that, if this sounds amazing to you, I only take clients where I know that I can help them make their investment back quickly. [00:15:54] So even though it is several thousand dollars, it's not cheap. Just going to be very clear about that. My goal is to make sure that it's a good fit for you and that I can actually help you do that quickly, because I don't want you wasting more money on stuff that doesn't actually work. . [00:16:09] We've all been there. We have it's annoying and I can't in good integrity do that. And so the first, first thing we do is we will set up a clarity consult. Now this is about a 30 minute call. It's totally free where we're going to see if we're a good fit for each other. And I'm going to ask you a whole bunch of questions about your business to make sure that the ideas and the thoughts that I have for you are going to be a good fit for you and that I can actually help you get there. ? But in the same way, it gives you a chance to talk with me and see if you believe that I can help you get the clarity that you need and move forward together. [00:16:45] There's no obligation. If you decide to do a clarity consultation with me, those are free. Like I said, And at the end, if we decided to good fit to work, then we'll, arrange for payment and all that good stuff. We'll set up a date. But I only have a limited number of clarity coaching days left this fall. [00:17:02] Cause I'm also teaching my course right now. So the number of days that I have are very limited. So if you've been thinking about this, if this is something that would help you tremendously, if you want to make the fourth quarter, your best quarter yet. I would love to help you do that. So use the show notes, reach out to me personally, and we will set up a clarity consultation and see if we're a good fit. My friend, just remember we are brighter together and the world needs us, so let's go out and let's make it brighter.

Fuzzy logic is an approach to computing based on "degrees of truth" rather than the usual "true or false" (1 or 0) Boolean logic on which the modern computer is based.  It is a form of many-valued logic in which the truth values of variables may be any real number between 0 and 1 both inclusive.   Govind's Social:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gov218/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/govindmohan218/?originalSubdomain=ca   Deep's Social:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/neuronsrcool/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Deepneuron LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deepprasad/   Pouya's Social: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pouyalj/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/pouyalj LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pouyalajevardi/   Episode Transcript:----more----   SUMMARY KEYWORDS reality, true, logic, people, thinking, idea, language, point, universe, objective reality, humans, thought, fuzzy, experiment, paradox, nature, question, probability, false, thoughts SPEAKERS Pouya LJ, Govind, Deep   Pouya LJ  00:16 Hey guys, how's it going?   Govind  00:19 Nice, amazing. Toronto. Good weather.   00:23 Yeah, no, it's surprisingly hot. Yeah.   Pouya LJ  00:29 So it's been a while, since we talked. Let's see each of you. What's up with you. Let's start with you guff?   Govind  00:39 Well, for those that don't know, I have a startup called Virtual systems that focuses on network security using information theory, principles, and networking, to have a flat internet that's not built on data centers where data privacy can be controlled by the user, as opposed to any corporate corporation that is controlling your data, which is the case these days. So that's a little bit of my background. I like a lot of things like mathematics, philosophy, computer science, and software development.   Pouya LJ  01:11 Well, that's for philosophy. All right, I bet you the What's up? What's up with you?   Deep  01:18 Um, yes. First of all, I just want to say that just sounds like the life of a polymath, so I can really appreciate that right on COVID. Yeah, so I similar to COVID. I also run my own startup, we do quantum computing. Instead, we are looking to use quantum computers to accelerate the materials discovery timeline. Right. So right now we do a lot of things that are mostly trial and error based plus some compute, for doing materials discovery, let's say you want to discover a new cathode or new electrode material, right? How are you going to do that? We want to automate that process and and speed it up by thousands if not millions. That's our goal. It's pretty ambitious, but that's what we do you everyday, or try to do. Uh huh. Yeah. So that's what I've been up to.   Pouya LJ  02:11 Yeah. Thanks. That's amazing. Are you in Toronto?   Deep  02:14 Yes. Good.   Pouya LJ  02:15 Good. You're enjoying this weather?   Deep  02:17 Totally. Yeah. So nice. weather wise will enjoy it. Well, us.   Pouya LJ  02:21 Yeah. Well, that's true. That's going on soon. Probably next week. Still not that bad? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Anyways, so today, we are tackling a subject that I am very inept in? I have no idea. I mean, I know abstractly what it is, but I don't have any readings on it. I think you guys are more educated on this than me. But let's see how it goes. So we're talking about a bunch of different stuff. Actually, it's not one thing, but it's centered at logic propositions. And quantifiers. Do you want it? So this was the pathway was introduced to this conversation was introduced by golf? Do you want to start it off yourself?   Govind  03:06 Sure. Um, so when we think about logic, what comes to mind? Generally, it's things like, debate, you know, things that logic is associated with, or things like debate, and truth and false, maybe people who are in software development or would think of code. You know, there there are so many of these, these these concepts that come to your mind when you think of the word logic. You know, what, maybe maybe you guys can chime in with like, premium fallacy. When I say the word logic, one of the one of the things you think about,   Pouya LJ  03:35 no, I think I mean, I guess it depends on their perspective, as you were saying, but I think what you're saying it makes sense. I think, generally, people think about logic as reasoning, like step by step thinking. Thinking about, like, it depends, if you're asking a philosopher is a little bit different than a mathematician than a software, regular person going about their lives, not thinking about these things. But I think that just remains for most people.   Govind  04:05 Sure, what am I?   Deep  04:07 Yeah, when I think of logic, I think of two things, the more intuitive idea of logic, which is what I think every human has, right? We like to all believe that we're logical beings, right? What does that mean? We all know that mean something when I say it, but what does so I think, the intuitive idea that humans are logical insofar as they have a set of consistent rules that you can codify that have some sort of basis, right, you can derive next set of actions based on a set of let's say, axiom true principles, right. And they're logical in nature. For example, humans get hungry where you're cutting off I don't is that does that me or?   Govind  04:46 Oh, I can I can hear him fine. I think   Pouya LJ  04:48 that's me.   Deep  04:50 Do you want me to restart for you?   Pouya LJ  04:53 Okay, now that's better. Sorry. Okay. Sure. That's fine. Continue. Sorry.   Deep  04:56 Sure. So I was just saying that like from from the preset preset Something that's logical, or I would consider as logical is the idea of hunger, right? Like when a human is hungry? What would be logical next is that they're going to try to get food. Right? To me that's logical. And that and so that's an intuitive logic or system of systems are sets of logics that we just know from by nature. Then I think of the logic, when when when Govan asked me, What do I think when you know about logic, right? Like what comes to mind? Or how would I define it and whatnot. The second one is the formal, abstract idea of logic that we humans have that I think that maybe other creatures don't have. And and that's the mathematical ability or the mathematical perspective of logic, where you can look at, you can create systems like Boolean logic, you can generalize Boolean logic and look at how you can construct quantum computations in Universal computations. And propositional logic is totally different than what I just talked about. And so that's all these things are abstract logics, and it's different than the intuitive logic, sometimes.   Govind  06:07 Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's a great way of like, you know, describing the entire breadth of what logic? Thanks. Well, I think it comes down to the concept of truth and false, right, because you have to start with things you know, are true. And then you string these things that are true in certain ways that allows you to create certain implications, right? You, you, you start with a few facts, like, as a classic one, all men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore, Socrates is mortal, right? You know, you have these propositions you have you start with these facts, and then you put them together using some inference rules. But what I wanted to discuss in today's topic, as today's topic is this concept of truth and false itself. We really, as humans, we take truth and false kind of for granted as a discrete binary thing, right? You have something that's true, and it's not true, it's false. But is that really the case? And to further grounded discussion, I have a few quotes from this book. It's called fuzzy thinking. And it has it really explores this concept of how truth can be continuous or fuzzy, right? It's it's not it's not truth. It's like an on off switch. But it's actually like, on and goes all the way to off with like, several, maybe infinite steps in the way. So one quote I really like is, there was a mistake, and everyone in science seemed to make it. They said that all things were true or false. They were not always sure which things were true and which were false. But they were sure that all things were either true or false. So I thought that that is a really cool quote, because it points out this fact that this is really taken for granted, we don't really think about, you know, like, What is it? What does it mean for something to be true or false. And another quote, I think, would be interesting not to make this all the quotes I made this last one is a quote from Albert Einstein. So far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they're not certain. And so far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. Because, I mean, if you say something is true or false, the universe does not give a shit, you know, universe is going to do whatever it's doing. And we're just we're just creating these models where we say, Okay, these things are true, these things are false. And, and we're going to construct our models of reality based on it. But these models of reality are pretty much mental experiments that we perform across humans right? Now, it just so happens that it happens to be incredibly good at modeling reality, to the point where people can get confused and say that reality works based on the principles that we create, and the facts that we create, the things that we assign as true or false is what is allowing reality to work the way it is. But it's it's always important to know that there's this detachment between what's reality and what's what's, you know, our our collective, our thought experiment, which is, you can call it mathematics, philosophy, whatever any anything that we have, when we come together, we have discussions, even discussions like what we're having right now. They're, they're just, like, there's a separation from this and reality. And this is kind of exemplified by what's known as the law of the excluded middle in, in logic. So where if you have a proposition a, let's say, let's just call it P let's let's work in the realm of the abstracts, if you have a proposition p p could be something like, this is a fruit or a gob is a person, you know, things like that things, something that I can assign a truth value to true or false. So the law of the excluded middle is that for all propositions P, P, or not B, that is something can either be true or not true. Now, this this sounds like stupid, simple, right? It sounds kind of like okay, sure, something can either be true or false. But now, what's crazy is that several mathematicians in over the 20th century, were actually pushing back against including this principle and logic, they were saying, No, I want to construct a mathematics which doesn't have p or not p that is, p or not P is actually not true. According to these people. They were called the intuitionists. And this cause Like a massive, massive debate back in the 20th century. But I'll pause here and I'll get some comments from you guys like what do you think such a mathematics could actually look like?   10:11 So   Deep  10:12 the first thing that comes to mind is the idea of structural realism. Structural realism basically posits that whatever scientific and mathematical understanding that we get of the universe, it does not necessarily reflect on the true structure and nature of the universe, right? So, if you have a quote, of creations that describe gravity at the macroscopic scale, that does not mean that those equations are the true structure and nature of reality. And that's important because when we're, as you sort of alluded to Govan, like when we define something to be true or false, nature doesn't give a shit. Right, so to speak. And that's like, like, interesting enough, there's a philosophical question right there. Because what if it happens that structural realism is false. And ironically, there is some sort of mathematical truism, at least in the physics perspective, that we can define, and that it is actually a true reflection of reality. It is objectively the truth. Right? Like, we may not, it may actually be possible, who knows? So there and because we haven't actually answered that, you know, what I mean, that that philosophical idea yet, whether structural realism, is true or not, is very hard to it. Yeah, extend or resolve the conflicts that have occurred in the 20th century from logic? Because this is just an extension of that. What do you think?   Govind  11:50 Um, well, I think this this, this time in history was very interesting, you know, because, well, maybe, like, some historical context would be that, you know, this is the first time you have like, several extremely smart people from across the world coming together and creating a global, you know, like, hey, let's tackle the biggest questions in, in humanity, like any point in your thinking, right? So like, and I think this kind of resulted in probability, right? probability is something that emerged from the 20th century, I mean, some could argue the roots extend way back, but you know, like the roots for everything, then way back. But the reason I bring up probability in this in this argument is like, as, as humans now in the 21st century, we, our process of science is so fundamentally grounded in probability, right? Like, to the point where our models of reality are the closest models of reality, we have use probability necessarily, right? Think of all the discussions you've had with your friends regarding COVID, or all these other things. Most people tend to make arguments related to probability and case fatality rates, you know, these kind of like, almost baseball statistics, right? Like I say, baseball statistics, just to kind of ground that and make it more like, you know, you see where I'm going with this, right? It's just that probability has created this kind of way that of making seen things our model seems so real, that you can actually see them and you can actually see their measure their impact on them. Right, this in fact, in mathematics, this the, let's call it the backbone of probability is called measure theory. Right. And I think this kind of lends itself to, well, some of the stuff you're working on, right, the quantum models of reality. So I think I think structural realism is something that is extremely effective, because it's, it's, it works on observations of reality, behind the scenes, and it actually kind of gets there. I mean, I'm using structural realism, maybe I'm, I'm conflating it with some mathematical context that are quantitation that it does not come with out of the box. I hope, I hope my point is clear.   Deep  13:51 Yeah, I understand your point completely. Um, quia. What do you think about this idea of an objective truth in nature? Um, do you think that it actually exists? And should we possess it? logic around that idea? Or the, or the rejection of the idea? Yeah. How important should that rule be?   Pouya LJ  14:12 Um, that's a very good question. Actually, I have started this long project, which is in the background for my own sake, I actually came up thought of this question a while back. I mean, everybody thought of thinks about these things, but more seriously started thinking about this insert. Getting onto some avenue to, you know, think about Yes. Is there an objective reality? And then that's literally the question to ask myself that started me on this journey. And you know, I I talk to some people from different walks of life, from psychology to philosophy to physics and what have you, some people who are at the top of their fields. I didn't. I mean, I did ask them this question, which is not the point. But from there our conversation, my conversation with them. What I got is that, no, from, from, from the real essence of the question, like the deepest sense of the question. And what I gather from all of those conversation conversations is that, again, we not the way we understand our world, our universe, maybe there is maybe there is a formalism that will get us there. But at least not with anything we have this, you know, far we've gotten discovery in science and philosophy thought. So. I, I think ultimately there is that's just a guesswork, obviously, like hypothesizing, but not in the sense that. So, let me put it this way. So for example, when GM Govan was saying that there's a spectrum of truth, I think that is, that is, that is true, until you get to the, to the resolution to the, to the, to the pixel of reality, essentially, at some point, it has to be one or the other. But we didn't get there yet. So that's my sense of it. That's my sense is that yes, it will eventually be some sort of objectiveness in reality, but it requires a better understanding of that reality that the fundamental laws of our universe, and that is not just gravity, gravity is, for example, gravity is emergent, from my perspective, and that that sense?   Govind  16:49 Well, I think you're gonna be happy, because initially, you wanted this discussion to be more about the nature of reality. And I think it's creeping into there. So I'll talk a little bit about the nature of reality as examined by Western philosophers. So there's a Descartes, notably, in the in the history of Western philosophy in like, let's say, the early modern period, which is like on 1600s, to like present day, or 1600 to 1800, is about the early modern period, we had these different movements, we started with rationalism, which is that, you know, like, we just, we just say things like, create these elaborate logical models. And then, and then we, we kind of examine, we use this as descriptions of reality. And then this kind of God rejects. And notably, Rene Descartes was kind of like a huge figure in this movement, because he said things like, the mind is its own soft, separate substance. And to tie that back to this discussion, what I was saying earlier about the realm of, of imaginary, thought experiments that we work with, in different fields like mathematics, computer science, and so on. He thought that it was its own separate universe that was completely detached from our, the universe that we live in. And he, I mean, these are the things he's saying, right? Like, I mean, he could be right, he could be wrong, but like, he's like, he's using logic as a means to tie together his his arguments. But at the end of the day, these are just things he's saying. And he's just using logic to create an elaborate story, an elaborate logical model. And this is the criticism that the next movement kind of gave to the rationalists. They were called the empiricist. People like David Hume, and I think mill or Locke, john Locke was in there. But they were like, hey, you're just saying things, you know, you're just you're just creating, you're just like, this is basically a story that I'm reading. And you're just like, Well, God is this and God is that. Savage. Exactly. And they're like David Hume, one of his famous philosophical quotes is like, you know, you can, you can't say for sure that the sun is gonna rise tomorrow, we see it rise every day. And we take it for granted, we have these explanations for it. But at the end of the day, these are just explanations, you know, I mean, at this point, they hadn't invented spacecraft and all that stuff yet, you know, they couldn't just go up there and see the sun.   Deep  19:09 Well, even then, like it did, there's still a philosophical point to that, like, even then we may not, despite everything we know, today, you know, I mean, the sun might not rise like there's   Govind  19:21 exactly that's, that's, that's   Deep  19:22 apparently physical reasons. I'm not even saying like magical reasons. But yeah,   Govind  19:26 So so they completely dismiss these, the rationalist arguments using this, it's like, if I don't see it, you know, it doesn't exist. So, you know, show me the proof, show me the reality of things. Got it. Um, and eventually, this kind of got resolved somewhat by Kant, Emmanuel Kant, who came in the, I believe, late 1700s, early 1800s. And he, he, he's like, Okay, guys, how do we resolve this? Because there's clearly some value in using logic to describe reality. And there's definitely value in talking about things that we can see and perceive and sense right. So his Way of reconciling this was to say that was to bring in the human aspect of things like how we perceive things. And he thought that that played an important role. In fact, what we call space time, were intuitions, he described them as intuitions. So humans have an intuition of space and an intuition of time, which is what allows us to perceive these things in reality. To make that more clear, he's he's telling the Emperor says, Hey, the things that you think you perceive, so clearly, maybe they're not that clear, you know, you are trapped behind your veil of perception at the end of the day. And again, like this is all to talk about the objective nature of reality, right? As humans, we can't help but be stuck behind the fact that everything we're perceiving is just what we're perceiving. There's another quote from Descartes, you know, it's, I think, therefore I am. It's one of like, the most famous quotes from philosophy, I think. But it's, it's basically that, for him thinking was such a rational endeavor, right? He thinks that just because he has this stuff running on in his head, like this voice that goes like, blah, blah, blah, and in his head, that's, that's why he knows for real, that He exists, like, no matter what, I have this thing that allows me to, like, perceive and like, you know, like, I don't know, if you guys are real, I don't know, my computer's I know, there's something going on here. You know, that's kind of his point there. And Kant was saying, you know, there's a human element of things you just can't strip away from, from anything real, right. So that's a little bit of a background in this in, well, let's say Western philosophical thinking about this, this this topic.   Deep  21:27 That's awesome. Um, and, you know, a lot of its circles, it's all circling and tying back in to itself in an interesting way. And here's what I mean by that. So, to your point about how deep you know, probability is in quantum mechanics, right? It plays a huge role, a fundamental role. For literally since the birth of it, you know, physicists both on the quantum computing and sorry, quantum physics side of things, and the classical physics side of things, believed that there should be some sort of a clear description of the wavefunction and information that we can eventually have access to and predict perfectly. So like, just, there's there was this idea that we'll eventually be able to predict the exact nature of the collapse, the wave function will know when it will collapse, and into what outcome it will collapse, rather than just knowing the probability. And you know, fast forward 100 years later, we've made essentially zero progress in making that stochastic process any less stochastic to us. And so it's really like sad react Sony, right? Like for the people who, who believe like, go when you and I've had tons of discussions about determinism and whether the universe is and Buddha unites was actually all three of us. And so quantum mechanics quickly touches on that. And then there's the objective reality question. There's the witness friend paradox. experiments, right that were recently conducted, again, two years ago, where you had two different labs instead, posing as a weakness friend, basically, it's a witness paradox is a paradox that was created in the 60s it was proposed by the famous physicist Wagner, and essentially, what he said was that if there are given the fact that the wavefunction encodes the all the possible measurables and observables, for a given observer, then the wavefunction is going to be different for different observers. And if that's true, then they're going to have eventually conflicting facts about the universe. And so he said, that's a paradox, right? And it turns out that it's true that two years ago, in those days, it is insane, because two years ago, we actually ran these quantum physical experiments where we took a well being split using beamsplitters, we essentially used quantum entangled photons. And we've been into two different labs, and you have people, you have what's called witness friends inside the lab, and then Wagner or like the observers outside the lab. And so all four people in this experiment, none of them can observe each other. We're measuring each other's photons directly, they can perform measurements to see if a measurement hasn't done, but they can't. Yeah, so that so if you want to think about it physically, they're splitting at the end of the experiment, one particle that was turned into four quantum entangled pairs, so through Bell state pairs and beamsplitters you really have these so if you want visualize that, so imagine, like I take a ball of physical ball, and I cut it in four pieces, and I give it right to four different people. Here's a weird thing about the huge We're gonna experiment what ended up happening is that Imagine if I asked those four people to look at, if I to record the color of their ball, right, let's say I cut up a red ball. And and I gave a piece to everybody, everybody has a red ball in theory right? v a piece that's red. What ended up happening is that these people, of course, were quantum mechanics, there's one caveat, right? You can expect the ball to change colors, that's fine, you can, you can expect it to change either red or green. So that's let's say, you can measure spin up, spin down totally fine. What and what what we did was, let's say I did this, I took a red ball, I gave it to four of my friends. And then they did measurements, knowing that it'll change red, green, red, green, sometimes. I, it turns out that when they did those measurements, and they all got back to each other, and they looked at their lists, and the measurements that they did on each individual piece themselves, the colors didn't add up. So So I so imagine this, like, imagine if I looked at my list, and I observed red, green, green, red, green, red, and you observe green, green, green, green, green, red. So you were looking at a different piece of the ball. How's that even possible? When I physically split the same objective ball? It's not it's, well, technically you shouldn't have been, but it is like, in fact, what's happening is that literal conflict and objective facts about reality, where you have people who participated in a physical experiment, use the same physical measurement tools and came up with different conflicting facts   Govind  26:31 that is completely wild. Yeah, no, that's physics anymore. You know, this is like something just so beyond anything.   Deep  26:41 Yeah, I mean, it is very edgy. Yeah. See? What we know, dude.   Govind  26:45 Yeah. Oh, my God. That's, that's insane. Everyone reminds me of the banach tarski paradox, right? Like, I mean, these kind of things happen on mathematics, and we're totally fine with it. Right. So the banach tarski paradox is like, imagine you have a sphere, a sphere that's composed of like, let's, let's call them like, an infinite number of droplets that are holding together this fear, right? It's like this basketball. So the banach tarski paradox says that there is a way to separate out, like, just choose all the points, like a whole bunch of these points that are in here, like these droplets, and then you take them out, and then you move them away. And these are just solely choosing the points, while granted infinite number of points, you're telling them to go somewhere else. And using this, you can actually create a perfect clone of the ball, right? You have two different copies of the ball using the exact same number of particles. So you can do all these weird things with infinity in the world of the abstract, you know, where we're fun things happen, and everyone's everyone's happy and dancing all the time. You know, like, yeah, they're like, we're okay with all kinds of crazy things happening. But man, when this spills over into reality, it's like, we all lose our shit. Because, you know, yeah, literally not believing.   Deep  27:54 That's right. That's right.   Pouya LJ  27:57 Yeah, and so, um, so what, what, what do you do, but especially because you're, you're actually very close to these experience. What does that what does that make you feel? What does that? What? What does that? Do you think it means? What does that say about that objective reality, if you will? What is your thought?   Deep  28:17 Yeah, it will, what it tells me is that there's likely some sort of, clearly a multiverse situation going on, where almost it's like, we're maybe that maybe each agent that can be concerned, considered an observer or anything that can be considered capable of measurement, right? We don't know how far that extends. We just don't know those answers. But I believe that everything that can is on some unique multiverse, and we all just have our own timelines intersecting with each other. That's what that told me. It no longer feels like, we share one objective physical space. It's like, you know, I mean, we just have like, the these rays instead. That intersect. So it, I found, frankly, I found it psychologically disturbing when I read the experiment and the results. And I don't think that there's no way around it. It's just but it's fascinating stuff. So yeah,   Pouya LJ  29:17 yeah, no, I, it does make sense. Yeah, what you're saying like, I mean, obviously, there has to be so that to me, either. There's another explanation such as the multiverse situation, or maybe there is no objective reality. Well, in a sense, at the end of the day, if you're living in a multiverse with different set of facts, and you're building all of your rules based on those axioms that you get from FX x, or whatever, a different set of axioms will say. Then, who's to say which universe is the reference universe, or the main universe or truth? So maybe maybe there isn't any objective reality which, which to me, And then that's my whole thing. That was my whole thing about this objective reality. I asked this question going in thinking, yes, there is, and we can't just find it yet. But let's pose the assumption that Yeah, no, there is no objective reality, then to me, it's a little bit more humanistic again, talk, but it just shows me how arrogant we've become of a thing called, you know, science and discovery. And we're just, we're just going forward thinking that we're supposed to know the answer to, to everything, we have to figure it out. And that and that's fine to try. But also I think it this whole phenomena should should give us some notion of Okay, there is there there should be a little bit a bit a degree of humility, in what in what we do as discoverers of this universe, which is, to me the most beautiful parts. Again, I'm like, this is being poetic as a human thing. But that's at the end of the day. That's who we are. And I think I think we should appreciate that part as well. Sorry, I'm just going to close this loop on this poem that I just composed here. But Okay, back to Golf. How does that make you feel? from someone who's a little bit more distant? Personally,   Govind  31:28 I think it's very interesting to use the word pool there because, well, since since this, this discussion has kind of been underpinned by logic and language and all that kind of stuff. There's this philosopher Martin Heidegger, his his entire take was like, we need to kind of escape from the confines of language and the kind of thinking that is inevitable, just because of language being the way it is, right? Because it's like, realistically, we all have our own personal language. It's like, I have my own language. And when I say that, I don't mean like my own version of English, I mean, my own, let's like, composition of thoughts, experiences, feeling senses, right? Like, if I remember, if I smell a perfume from my past, like, I'm gonna have like, these nostalgic experiences and all that stuff, right? And, and that really, that's part of that's a word or like maybe a phrase in like, personal language. And whenever I'm talking, what I'm doing is I'm converting from my, I'm translating from my personal language to English, right? In this case, and then and then you have to, like convert that back to your personal language. And men composition is really hard, like, how do we do it? Given this this context, but Heidegger, his his attempt to improve language, was by positing that we move to poetry as a way of expressing ourselves purely because he thought poetry had this innate ability to capture our personal language, right? Because when we write poetry, it's such a, like, poetry is a hard thing to understand, right? Like, sometimes you read poetry, and I'm like, What the heck is going on? But it's just because it's, it's the poets like attempt to try to bring out their personal language as much as possible, right. And I would argue that most of art is the same process. So I mean, in, and I want to tie this back to like, the point I made earlier about us trying to escape the confines of our own existence, right, like, the the confines of our of our human infrastructure, the way we do that, I think poetry is a very, very cool way of and it's kind of cool that emerged from this discussion as well. That's kind of a case in point.   Pouya LJ  33:23 Yeah. No, I I think so. Yes, I think I understand. So it's the least amount of filters like art, I suppose, like, closest to you as it gets, I suppose. So, so yes, I, and that's what I've been going back and forth a lot. Like I obviously, as somebody who cares about, you know, methodical thinking, logical thinking, and, you know, rationale, reason, etc. That is very valuable, especially if you if we want resolved in this in this world of ours, because at the end of the day, we can get a lot with the our version of you know, reality that we have in this very pocket that we are living in, in the whole the whole universe and in space and time. But going beyond that, I think there there has and that is where I think they kind of, you know, overlap the the field, let's call it science and art, if you will, I don't, I don't like to make huge distinction, like borderline distinction distinctions, generally personally, but I think in an entirety, society does make it very, like black and white distinction between these two, which I think there is a good amount of overlap, and that is, we're   Govind  34:44 talking fuzziness, right, it's all about being fuzzy and accepting it for what it is as opposed to what we want it to be that maybe seems more perfect to us, right? Like these molds seem more perfect to us. But the reality is, nothing is a mold like everything is fuzzy, right? Like I think the example is like such a mind. looming realization of that.   Pouya LJ  35:02 Yeah, no, that's that's true. And what one way one can raise a question. I suppose that what makes us want the I mean, I have I have one answer. But let's let me just pose the question first. What makes us as who we are humans, again, within this infrastructure, once this clarity of binary of, you know, not being fuzzy, but rather completely distinct or True or false? Well, what are your thoughts on that?   Govind  35:35 Well, I remember we actually think I think we did a podcast on this a little bit ago about like the nature of chaos, right? Some people, most people I think, are very averse to chaos, because they like things being simple and easy to understand. Right? What I mean, the more, let's say, foolhardy among us, for lack of a better word, like kind of naturally as gravitated towards chaos, because I think chaos is just such a good description of reality. But the problem is that chaos, by definition is incredibly, incredibly complex, right? So you don't you don't have the simplicity of like, you know, two plus two equals four, right? You're like, what's two? what's plus? What's four? What's the quality?   Pouya LJ  36:14 That sounds like you checked, you just say, yeah, smoke some weed or something? Like what is to man?   Govind  36:23 I thought this was Joe Rogan.   Pouya LJ  36:27 Oh, it could be anyway. No, I think so. Okay, let me go back to how about you do and don't share my thoughts?   Deep  36:38 Yes. So, first of all, it's super interesting about the nature of fuzziness, especially when we think about Zeno's paradox. Because even that is a great example. You know, I still contend that we have not resolved the paradox of why is it that we can make contact with anything, right? Why is it that I'm even touching the floor right now, despite the poly exclusion principle? And, you know, Zeno's paradox, right?   Govind  37:10 xenos paradox.   Deep  37:11 Sure. So So, so xenos paradox. It's really a family of paradoxes. But it all comes down to the fact that, I'll give you an example. Let's say that you want to reach the end of the hallway. And your rule that you impose on yourself is that you're going to have your distance in order to get to the hallway, and you'll have your distance, every single time until you get to the end of the hallway. And so let's say the, you're 10 feet away from the end of the hallway, then the next time the next move you make you're five feet away, then two and a half, then 1.25, and so on and so forth. And until you go to point 000000125, blah, blah, blah, but it'll never be zero, right? It never touches zero. So at no point, will you ever actually reach the end of the hallway. So Zeno's paradox, what basically asks, Why do you never, why do you touch the end of the hallway? Why is it that in real life, we end up making it to the other side, despite the fact that these infinite distances, you know, taking any slice of an infinite still infinite so so he just had all these questions about it. Yeah, spacetime. Very deep questions to the thousands of years ago on so and we still haven't answered them properly. And yeah,   Govind  38:34 well, I have a point about that. But I know if we are you're you're itching to talk about your, your perspective on it. Go ahead. Oh, you're on mute. Oops, sorry.   Pouya LJ  38:45 First of all, I want to say that I, I sent a photo and chat A while ago, and I think I diverted deeps attention to that kind of concept, which was I don't know if you saw the, the the rabbit or whatever it is. It wants to go get a haircut. I'll put this in the show notes, by the way, but it's a half off haircut. Did you guys see that one?   Deep  39:12 Right now? That is funny. Yeah, I'll put this   Pouya LJ  39:16 in the show notes. So that people who are listening to this, they can just find it out. But I know this is exactly what you're talking about. It'll gonna take forever. So yeah, you're right. But why do we actually get that haircut and the half of haircut eventually? No, I think so. First of all, all of these are exactly to my point that there's there's there is probably a sea of things that we just don't know about the nature of our universe, the one that even forget about objective reality, the one that we even perceive. And maybe one can make an argument that the reason with the fatalities of our of our views are the questions that we cannot answer is because of the fact that our realities are not completely overlapping the objective one, and that's where those those are the the edge cases that are actually creating these problems, perhaps. But true. Beyond that, I think there's a, there's a degree of obsession amongst many, many people, most people probably besides besides the ones who are embracing chaos, I suppose as go and was putting it, that we did a good good amount of like humanity essentially once a clear answer to two things and sometimes takes shortcuts through through, you know, ideologies that might not have, you know, rational rationale behind them. Just to get to those answer, why am I here? Why, like, because I have to be tested here to go to heaven, part of the some of the religious ideologies, or, or what is the nature of our unit? Why is the sun come up? I feel a first of all does is going to come up tomorrow or, and then we come up with these answers, and everybody through their own ways try to answer these definitively. And part of that is I think, now it's a little bit of more philosophical questions, I suppose, or answer rather thoughts, I suppose. But I think part of that is because we understand our own mortality by binary, which is the most did the deepest, probably driver of our existence, and that is either we're dead or alive, there's no, I'm half dead. I was like, well, maybe you're sick a little bit, but you're not half dead. So I and there is there's a degree that we and there's an understanding that when I die, I there's like, there's no coming back from that. I mean, I'm obviously there are exceptions, sometimes. Some people, some people, flatline they come back. But if you're flatlining for a week, you're not coming back from that, right? So so there's, there's a permanency to that experience that and and, and our deepest drive is to avoid that. So to avoid that clear, at least, at least from our mortal, mortal perspective, clear, true or false If true, being your dead and false being your life. That is clear that okay, if I'm, if I'm talking right now, as the card would say that I exist. In a more biological setup, sense, I'm not dead. And, and, and it drives all those questions, I suppose. But again, like, also going back to language as a logical tool, essentially. What do you think there's going to be a funny question, what do you think people before language would think? Would they have similar thoughts to these things? Now? I mean, obviously, in a simpler case, and not thinking like quantum physics, I suppose. But what do you think all of these are fatalities of language that we're carrying with ourselves? Or is it drive by language? Or is it more fundamental? So if we didn't have language for people who didn't invent language yet, back in? I don't know how long ago? Would they have similar thoughts? Do you think?   Govind  43:11 Well, I think we do have animals, right? Like, I mean, when we have these, you have any pets? Do you   Pouya LJ  43:17 mean no? Okay, before, but I know Okay, yeah. No, but I can understand what you're where you're going.   Govind  43:24 But when you have, like interactions with animals, I love animals. It's almost like you have this communication with them. That's that's not like you. I mean, I don't I can see versus and they probably don't understand me, unless all animals know English, and they just choose to ignore us. And they like humans are too stupid. There was a   Pouya LJ  43:43 cabal of animals deciding that this is not a good idea. Yes.   Govind  43:48 Lots of Rick and Morty episodes. But yeah, no, I think I mean, it's just that that awareness that being that's that's just there right? I think that is rooted in language fundamentally. Like I don't I don't know if we can actually get past this. This like our art like the language that we have developed evolved and developed is like it serves a very good purpose which is sharing thoughts with each other sharing these these like awareness experiences with each other right? But at the root of it all like I mean, it's all about that awareness and you brought up such a great point about death right? And how death is that binary which kind of makes us realize like you know, like there is such a thing as a clear like a clear line drawn in the in the northern sand like a line drawn in the concrete You know, this this is it like you know, there's life and then there's not life so so that that is actually such a such a great point about why negations work in this in this sense. I seem to have lost you guys   Pouya LJ  44:47 know, we can hear you. Okay. Oh, yeah, your picture froze, but I can hear you so that's good. Excellent.   Govind  44:53 Yeah. Well, yeah, that's that's the point I wanted to make. You know, it's a it's like these these ideas do exist, but I'm sure Animals have a notion of death as well. Right? And animals. Oh, yeah. Their their experiences and all that.   Pouya LJ  45:05 Yeah, no. And that's true. The notion of death is obviously at least in its more primal sense of obvious. Obviously, they're, they're trying to avoid it. But there are no but my point was, so so the rabbit holes that we go to and get stuck in it, then half of the way to the destination, and then half it, and then half of them and have it is this. My This is what is this? Now? Now this one is not as outside of language, actually, some, I'm kind of negating myself, but is a lot of these problems with language and and how we're communicating with each other. Because honestly, like, there are instances that I think I should have been thinking about this. Do I think with myself, like when there's nobody else, I don't have to communicate with anybody else. I don't need to use language, English, Farsi, whatever, to communicate with other people. But is there any any? Do I communicate with myself with my thoughts, in language or outside of language? And I've been thinking about this for a while and trying to observe it? And part of it is that, yeah, yeah, most of my thoughts are us using language. But yes, there are pockets sometimes that I feel like, there's a thought that I can't even express it to myself, using language. It's that the, maybe that that's the that's for, like, there's a fog. And I'm perceiving it. There's some sort of experience behind it. But I can't even describe that experience for us. Like, I mean, what what is like, so what is it sounds like an impression of a thought, right? Because a thought is a thought when you're able to express it, maybe? Yeah, so i think i think that that becomes super clear. Well, okay, let me let me give you so this is a, this is going to be a little bit of an exaggeration. Like, it's not what I'm thinking about. So the one that I'm thinking about is more of a thought. But think about this, when you're extremely fearful for your life at a very moment notice of, you know, hitting, you know, you have to you have to run there's there's a, there's a specific quality to that fear. And you're thinking, Okay, maybe there's a bear in front of you. And your thought is that we're going to grab this knife, but are you really thinking in terms of wars, I am going to grab this knife, you see a knife, you you want to grab it, you know what I mean? That's a thought that I'm going to grab this knife, but it's not really in any language. And that is really forced when I think I can see myself doing that, at least, when it comes to the precipice of like some sort of when it combines with some sort of very strong emotion such as, okay, I have to grab this knife or gun or whatever, shoot this bear, I'm not thinking to myself, okay, I am going to grab a gun, and I am going to pull the trigger at this. No, that's not it, you just know, right? That's a   Govind  48:01 possibility. It's like you're like, the way I think of it is like, it's almost like a design space of everything that could possibly happen given what's around you. Right? So it's like you're sampling from this design space. Like one of these events, for example, is like you picking up a knife or like, you know, you punching someone in the face. This is around you. Something like it's like these are these are just, I think the mind is really good at generating these kind of things, which is just sampling points from, from this design space of what's around us, right? Yeah. And then and then these are actions or like, these are these are impressions. Yeah. It's like, yeah, we just, we just like, we have all these things around this, like stimulus. And our mind is generating these things. And most of the time, it's like, it's pretty pragmatic. It's like, Oh, you have to put on your shoes to walk. It's like this thing you tell yourself, but you're not really thinking you're doing things. But like, sometimes it's just like random thoughts. Like it's our mind is a pretty interesting random number generator. Deep. What are your thoughts on that?   Deep  49:00 Okay, it really is. I agree with that. I mean, you can always say that, uh, you know, all of our output all of our, I've always wondered, you know, the, what is it the thousand monkey or the infinite monkey experiment or thought experiment where what would happen if you let monkeys play with a typewriter for an infinite amount of time, right? There's the idea that they would eventually create Shakespeare. And it makes me question the idea of creativity and thought, is it a linear combination of what you already know? Or is it truly something that will eventually appear emergent from random fucking monkey? Monkey actions, right? Like, what what is true intelligent creativity? So with that being said, I really had a I was thinking, though, you know, on that note about us looking at death and life is binary. That's true. We are classical creatures, like we observe the universe in classical sense, right? Everything is and so because it's macroscopic to us, I wonder, what if? What does life look like for, let's say, micro organism that doesn't experience the world classically like we do, right? What if there are, there are quantum organisms that are only experiencing the world and quantum mechanics? To them, there would be literally no such thing as a classical I am dead or classical life. What does that mean? What What does death for that organism look like? So yeah, I was just thinking about that. But you guys think,   Pouya LJ  50:34 yeah, no, you're you're dragging us into the pan psychism   Govind  50:41 the movie arrival, right? With the whole concept of like, circular time and all these things, right? Like, this is some I think, innovations of the 21st century like, exploring this, these kind of ideas. I see so many outlets for this in different TV shows and movies and all that stuff. Like this, this like convergence of everything, how everything is one and many at the same time. Right? Well, I guess the fuzziness of everything, right. Like everything is just really fuzzy. And we're, as humanity starting to accept it, which is, you know, really freakin cool.   Pouya LJ  51:12 No, no, it is. And you mentioned an arrival It reminds me of, so I think if I'm not mistaken. Okay, maybe I'm mistaken. But let me let me just make it maybe, you know, I think Stephen Wolfram was an advisor in that movie. I don't know if he really I don't know. That's that I I'm doubting myself now. So anybody out there listening. Please double check for yourselves. Don't quote me on it. But which reminds me he actually I don't know if we're familiar. Actually. I   51:40 don't know why I did a quick Google and   Pouya LJ  51:43 it is like it's okay. Yeah. And he came up with this new What is it? What do you call it? Geez. new stuff. Yeah, he is hypergraph.   Deep  51:56 Physics.   Pouya LJ  51:57 Yes. Yeah. Have you heard about that? Did you look into it?   Deep  52:01 Yeah, I   52:04 I liked it.   Pouya LJ  52:06 So what are your thoughts on that? But super quickly, I don't want to go to a different deep rabbit hole right now. But it reminded me of him when you mentioned arrival.   Deep  52:14 Sure. I mean, various.   Pouya LJ  52:16 I don't know, Dad Galvin. Are you familiar with what it is? Oh, yeah, sure. Sure. Okay. Okay. Cool. Cool. Good.   Deep  52:22 Yeah, just very briefly, I mean, the idea of like, Come complex, physical phenomena from simple rules is nothing new, right. Like that's been talked about for 100 years. What was really interesting was the idea of using causal graphs or attempting to use just like these hyper graphs to encode physical rules. Yeah, I think it's promising. I'd love to see experiments and math and more rigor. But the ideas are cool. Like Stephen Wolfram is really, like he has some fundamental thoughts there that are interesting, unique worth pursuing.   Govind  52:56 These are usually a pioneer of this kind of this kind of funky fuzzy stuff. Right, right. Yeah. Yes, geez theory so much with his work on automata and all that stuff. Well, this release. I mean, I wanted to bring back this point from about 15 minutes ago. We were talking about Zeno's paradoxes. Yeah, a conversation topic for a future podcasts definitely should be the nature of calculus, right? Because, yeah, the way we as humans, resolve Zeno's paradoxes was to create this notion of a limit, we just throw a limit on it. And we say, at some point, it does, it does converge on to this value, right? Like, and I'm like, okay, so you keep cutting the half of your hair. And at some point, you're, you're going to get a full haircut, right? Like, even if you get the convergence now that that notion of convergence, it turns out is not strongly understood by by humans. But I think that's something we need to discuss. And I it stands out for me, because this is one of the first discussions we ever had. Right? Exactly. Yeah.   Deep  53:57 Yeah, absolutely. Talking   Govind  53:58 about limits and how like, that's what I think I first realized I'm like, this doesn't make any sense, does it? It's just, we just put   Deep  54:04 it is it is a great because some that is it all stemmed from some Berkeley kid asking us like, like, about it, right? Like he's like, yeah, this like this. And then yeah,   Govind  54:15 yeah. Yeah. Cool stuff. No, but I think we should explore that in in the next podcast or though sounds good. Sounds good?   Pouya LJ  54:24 No, I think I think okay, well, we made the plan. I don't know about the dates. We'll talk about that later. But next sub subject of the next conversation will be calculus, and its origins, its fundamentals. axioms, I suppose. Okay, I think that's a good. Here's a good stopping point. We almost went full hour here. Is there anything else you want to, you know, close the loop on before we leave this conversation?   Govind  54:54 Well, for me, I think I learned so I mean, I had these thoughts about fuzzy fuzzy thinking and all that stuff. And it was Kind of like in the let's let's see the disk of my, the my external hard disk of my brain is just forgotten there. So it's great to brush the dust off. And I feel like I really kind of added to these models based on this conversation. So yeah, it was very cool. I think we achieved fuzziness today. Yes.   Pouya LJ  55:18 That's great. How about you?   Deep  55:20 Yeah, I would just say that I really appreciated the perspective of the history of history philosophy, with respect to logic, a super neat perspective that you brought to the table or Govind and yeah, just different perspectives that were shared today. Um, it's awesome. It does make things more fuzzy. And yeah, let's keep it going. Guys, I, I think that there's a lot of interesting questions. We post here today. So   Pouya LJ  55:47 okay, and if anybody wants to share their thoughts, feel free you can reach go in and deepen their respective social media, which I'm going to put in the show notes. Don't need to repeat them here. You can you can find them there.   56:01 And comment guys.   Pouya LJ  56:04 Make it make it dirty. No, keep it clean. And all right, stay fuzzy until later episode.   Deep  56:11 Cheers, guys.  

I have a special treat for you today. So rather than listen to me talking, I invited a special guest to join us. Priscilla McKinney, founder of Little Bird Marketing and joining us from Galena, Kansas.    Pam: So there's one thing before we get started, I want to have a chat with you about. I love your LinkedIn title. It says Annoying Truth Teller Powered by My Husband's Homemade Bread. So, you know, I don't really care about the truth teller part (laughs). You know, I really care about the homemade bread! So talk to us a little bit about your, I don't know, your husband's baking skills and what kind of bread does he share with you.   Priscilla: Well, see, this is where we're already off to a great point about social selling, but we're going to go back to bread because the reality is, is that nobody who really knows me, doesn't know that my husband for the last 17 years has been a stay-at-home Dad, Homeschooled our kids, and basically does everything you could imagine for me (laughs). And so, you know, they say behind every woman is a great man and that's all I have to say. (I usually say behind every woman is another bunch of her great women friends!) But in this case you can’t know me without knowing that I really have an unfair competitive advantage, and that is that my husband helps me with so much. And then there's just treats, he's an amazing cook. And, uh, you know, and his bread is just, uh, just above par. And I grew up in Spain and lived in, around France and limited Germany. And let me just tell you, I think I'm a little bit of a snob and he makes the most amazing French baguette. So I'm very sorry and it doesn't travel well, otherwise I would be giving it away.   Pam: Wow. Okay. One day I have to go to Kansas to visit you. Just to try his bread.   Priscilla: You’d would be most welcome!   Pam: Excellent. Speaking of telling all the marketers about the truth for today I want to talk about the topic you are incredibly passionate about: social selling. Yeah! So talk to us. What is your definition of social selling and why is it important?   Priscilla: Well, I think there's some of the age old adage is like “people buy from people they know like and trust” and all these, like things were like. You know, just cliches that we've used over and over again. But sometimes when I talk about social selling, what I like to remind people is what it's not, and it is not actually taking some of the same old school slimy salesy, always-be-closing-approaches and just moving them onto social. Instead, Social selling might use the technology of social media, but it is first and foremost, you know, it's human and it's collaborative and it's connective. And at the very root of it, it is saying, “I am a person, first, and I'll connect with you.” Now, I'm not saying that I have to sit and we have to know each other personally and be best friends. We can get right down to business, but I want my humanity to be the first thing that comes out. And I want someone to know something a little bit about me and how I see the world. And the last thing I'll say about that is, you know, I am who I am, whether I'm selling to you fire hydrants, or I'm selling marketing plans. I can't help, but be Priscilla and see things a certain way. And I want to explain to you, if you're going to enter into business with me or a professional relationship where we're collaborating, or maybe I'm referring to you, or you're referring to me. Socially, I want you to understand where I'm coming from and have a grasp of being able to talk with me as a human first and foremost,   Pam: Obviously before digital, you know, the sales people build the relationship with their prospects or with your potential customers first. So is something very similar to that, but we are doing that digitally? Is that how you see it?   Priscilla: That is, but I tell you one of the stats that should make everybody shutter is that we know at this point that the average buyer is now 57% of the way through their buyer's journey before any sales person ever knows about them, before they come on the radar of a company, or a lead generating system before they hit a top of the funnel, anything. And so this kind of idea of like, there's this streamline, you know, even, even the notion of a funnel was funny. But, you know, because as we all know it zigzags all around and we use these constructs in order to try and understand the journey as if it's just this linear thing going on, but it's not. And social selling understands that people are not out there having a linear experience in selling, that they go zigzag around, they need to know people and things build on each other in a far more organic way. And so if you come into things, knowing that, then you actually can start building the foundations of social selling.   Pam : With all that being said, typically, who is responsible for social selling within the company?   Priscilla: That is the best question to be asking. And I think the reality is that people think it's one of two people: it's either the salesperson or it's the marketing person.   Pam: No kidding! No kidding!   Priscilla: And then we have the WWF smackdown about which one it is. (laughs)   Pam: (laughs) I know! “It's your job.” “No, it's my job!” “No it isn’t your job!” “Oh, ok.” (laughs)   Priscilla: And then there's the blame game. You know, sales says that marketing didn't give them good leads. And marketing says that they give salespeople good stuff and they don't close it. And then the thing just goes on and on. But I think the reality is that the job is far more complicated and far more open to a lot of other players than people perceive. Right?   Pam: Yeah, I agree.   Priscilla: So this idea of this duality of sales versus marketing to me is really kind of an old issue that needs to be put to bed because I think the job is everyone's and here's another stat that should scare people to death. And that is that we know that people are reading 12 to 14 pieces of content, at a minimum, before they make a decision. And I guess my question is, to anybody who's out there trying to sell, how many of the 12 to 14 pieces that they read belong to you and your brand?   Pam: That's a good question. That's a very thought provoking question and we just need to be addressing the multiple different level. Right? So when the content is being served, can people find it? Right? And is the content in the right format. There's probably additional and thousands of questions that needs to be addressed before we can give an answer to that, but keep going.   Priscilla: Yeah. So what, you know, the old model is that it's either sales or marketing. What social selling really promotes and challenges is that same notion. It's like, no, there is an overarching strategy for the brand and it involves sales, it involves marketing, it involves HR and that's in recruiting. It also involves HR in terms of employee advocacy. It also can employ customer care, Customer experience. There’s so many layers of social selling that needed to be happening. And so when we only put it towards sales and marketing, what we're saying is all we care about is revenue.   Pam: We do care about revenue Priscilla, come on!   Priscilla: But that's short view, short view of revenue because don't you want people on your team in terms of social selling really out there and pulling the messages about the brand and the culture of the brand across all of the channels. For example, talking about how great it is to work at this place so that the company can attract the best and brightest, which then in turn in the long run actually delivers revenue.   Pam: Understood. So now you hit another cord and I think there may not be a clear distinction, say between, say brand advocacy, that's done by employees and also social selling. Do you see these two are the same thing as well?   Priscilla: Well, you know, more people would call them something different. And I do think they are one of the buckets, but I think the skills and the tips and the tricks and the, and the mindset that needs to happen for both of them are the same. And we know that the technology is the same. And so for me, it's about saying people who are doing the social, selling, doing the marketing the HR recruiting the customer care, all of these people need to have the same skill and the same understanding about how social is a hub and every single aspect of the business comes around.   Pam: Got it. So you are looking at in a more holistic view. And, uh, because everybody's on some sorts of social channels And if you are employees representing the company, you'll even just yourself, that how you present yourself does matter.   Priscilla: Absolutely. Yeah.   Pam: So with that being said--that how you present yourself does matter--what should people pay attention to when they do social selling? And what are some of the tips and tricks that you would like to share with everyone?   Priscilla: Nobody likes to be sold to.   Pam: True.   Priscilla: We all know that we hate that feeling, right? We get there's this reason why our culture has this association with like slimy sales. But then we go, we come in and we get out of our car, come up to our office, sit down and all of a sudden, as marketers or salespeople or HR recruiting, now all of a sudden we get slimy. Wait a minute. Why don't we just write and behave the way we want to experience out in the world. And this is the proverbial crap, LinkedIn message you get when someone connects to you. And this is, you know, you and I are very heavily in the B2B space and so we do talk a lot about LinkedIn, you know, so much about account based marketing and how to actually get this done smarter. But this is where this age old dumb slimy message that is completely irrelevant to you didn't even consider you. And in the end, actually half of the time, they actually ask a favor of you when they reached out and it's so ineffective, but it comes from that original mindset of “I'm one person when I'm wanted, when I'm, you know, and then I'm a different person when I'm marketing or selling” and that needs to stop.   Pam: Got it. So what is your advice specifically when people would like to engage or embark on the social selling?   Priscilla: It's about putting the other person first and it's also about doing it in the right place. And so that kind of slimy salesy approach I just talked with you about, we all are very familiar with that over in LinkedIn mail. Get out of LinkedIn mail jail and get over into the comments and the juicy bits. And, you know, you have such a great depth of wisdom about account based marketing and how to actually use the social channels for real, real sales revenue--like KPI's like we're not joking around and just. Being friends with people.   Pam: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I totally agree. Yeah. We have to hear the core, man.   Priscilla: Yeah. Yeah. And you wrote the book on how to do that globally and there's, there's something very powerful about that, but you don't get that done by staying in LinkedIn mail jail. You have to get out and you do two things when you, when you do that. First of all, if you have a wishlist or you have, even existing clients or a group of friendly, you go out and you see who is actively talking about the things you want to talk about and you just like a cocktail party come on up and you, you get involved in the conversation. And you, let the stuff happen and there in a more organic space and you do two things: not only do you start a more organic conversation, that's not jarring like this other crap, but you have just completely removed everybody from the potential dumb conversations who's not active on that channel. They would only be in those conversations if they're on that channel every day or every other day, or they find it meaningful So you just muted out a crap ton of people who have a profile somewhere, who don't even ever, you know, take a look at it. And so the prospecting or running, creating the relationship through the, I think is a very, very important, but often missed point when people are social selling.   Pam: That's actually a very good point. I missed that one completely (laughs). I comment on people's post, but I didn't think through. A lot of times it's very random. Maybe I should comment on the potential customers and especially the one I want to reach out.   Priscilla: The first thing I do when there's someone that I want to really do business with is I go out to their page, I go to their activity, I look at their posts and I see what they're interested in and I strike up that conversation. Other people would be like,“Oh, that's a gimmick or that’s salesy.” No, not if you show up and you be yourself and you just, you're interested in what they're interested in. And we all do this in society. It's called etiquette.   Pam: Yeah. I like that a lot. You hit the core. I liked that a lot. And, another question I would like to ask you specifically: are there, by default, social channels that people should use? I know that this is probably depending on your audience and depending on your personal preference, whatnot, but do you have any recommendation that there is a specific channel, or channels that people should use?   Priscilla: Where are their eyeballs are, that's where you need to go. But I think we all know, you know, just the truth about business when it's B2B, is that number one, you need to be on LinkedIn. Number two, you need to be on Twitter. And the big difference between the two of those. That's very, very important to understand.   Pam: I agree.   Priscilla: You ready? (laughs) Linked In is a closed network and therefore it cannot be scraped by Google. Whereas Twitter is a public channel and it can be scraped by Google. And so when, if you want to be famous for something, if you want the recognition of an influencer in a particular field, then you better get out on a completely public network that can be scraped and looked at, regardless of whether they've actually connected to you. And so if you're really looking for that exposure, and building your influence, then you really cannot leave out Twitter.   Pam: Okay. Got it. So it's really depends on your goals in terms of communication and also what you want to accomplish.   Priscilla: Exactly.   Pam: And also, you know, where your audiences are and then you can determine what are the right channel that you would like to engage.   Priscilla: Yeah, exactly.   Pam: So that’s a wrap for our podcast.  If you enjoy the podcast, please don't forget to leave comments or like the podcast on your favorite channels. As you venture out everyone, please continue to stay safe and healthy. Talk to you next time. Take care. Bye bye.  

The term "account-based marketing" gets tossed around a lot. Here's how top brands are really using ABM to get better marketing results. This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, B2B Fusion founder Jon Russo explains what account-based marketing is, and breaks down the strategies that top brands are using to penetrate target accounts, get meetings, and drive leads and sales. From researching your ideal customer profile, to building your tech stack and using direct mail to get meetings, Jon gets into plenty of detail about what is and is not working with ABM today. Jon's agency works with industry-leading brands like Level 3, Thompson Reuters and Blackboard. Check out the episode, or read the show notes, to learn exactly what he is seeing get results. Resources from this episode: Visit the B2B Fusion website Connect with Jon on LinkedIn Transcript Kathleen (00:00): Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And this week, my guest is Jon Russo, who is the COO and founder of B2B Fusion. Welcome Jon. Jon (00:20): Hello, Kathleen. Thanks for having me. Kathleen (00:23): Welcome to the podcast. I am excited to dig into some nerdy marketing topics with you. You know, and especially because we have a particularly interesting topic, I think in a time like this with COVID, which is account based marketing. But before we start talking marketing, can you talk a little bit about your story? You know, your background, how you came to be doing what you're doing now, what and what B2B Fusion is? Jon (00:52): Sure thing, Kathleen, and thanks for having me. I know we've been trying to get this on the calendar and greatly appreciate kind of us getting together here. So, great news. Yeah, my story. Look, that's my favorite topic. We could talk about me all day long, but I've been head of marketing or what they now call chief marketing officer for 10 years in public and private companies. And that was in Silicon Valley, New York city in Luxembourg. So I've seen kind of every iteration of B2B marketing in smaller companies, as well as large companies in that process and how I kinda got to where I am today. One of those CMOs assignments. I remember the emotion that I felt as a head of marketing, having to account for my function. And this was probably close to 10 years ago where I distinctly remember the best practice kind of companies that are out there that are professing the funnels and funnel shapes and definitions. Jon (01:52): And then at that time marketing automation was new. And so one of my challenges as head of marketing was I was trying to take this best practice theory and be able to articulate to the CEO and the board members, what my impact was to the business. And to my surprise, Kathleen, what I found out was I did a, with the help of a, my 22 year old sales operations assistant, who now currently works for me a little bit older now, but at that time he was fresh out of school and we were in Excel putting together marketing impact. And I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. I'm spending all this money on marketing automation. I'm spending all this money on best practice investments. And I can't get these two things to work and then show it to my board of directors and compounding. Jon (02:41): That was the fact that when we were producing this information, I was literally getting it in real time. So I was basically getting the information the day before a board meeting and racing it to my board of directors. And to my surprise at the time my border directors were like, wow, we never see marketing and actually measured. We've never seen anybody take an interest in this. And I remember coming home that night and sharing that with my wife saying, you know, I can't believe that this, these esteemed board of directors have never seen marketing measurement before, and they are top, top notch VCs. And that's when she said to me, I think you have a business there. And of course, like all men, I'm very slow to learn that. So she said, I think you've got a business there. You should really go after kind of the marketing measurement side. Jon (03:29): And that began my journey a little over nine years ago with B2B Fusion. And really we, we formed an agency that's at that nexus of systems and strategy to get the best measurement. And it's morphed a little bit since that initial vision, but that was kind of how I got to this point in time. I basically thought, well, I could become a CMO or a head of marketing for our 11th year in a row, or I could help other marketers on their journey to be more effective. And I find a lot more passionate in that, quite frankly right now. Maybe it's just where I am in terms of where I'm at in my career. I'd rather see others succeed and help them on the journey because it's not an easy journey for anyone. So that's a very long winded answer as to how we got to this point. Kathleen (04:18): You know, it's interesting listening to you talk about that. There are two aspects of it that really resonated with me. One is when you talked about the emotion involved and having to kind of justify your existence as a marketer and I think anybody listening I'm sure can relate to that because, you know, we get into such technical details and weeds. And it's funny, cause I literally came to record this episode from a meeting with my company sales team, where they were asking about this and, you know, thank God I can pull up my marketing automation platform. And today the tools have come so far. That was the other thing I was going to say really resonated with me was, you know, I owned an agency back around the same time that you were getting started and, and it was a completely different world back then, as far as our ability to track and report. And now, now it's almost like we have too many tools and that's the problem. The bigger problem is figuring out which one to use and how to like how to really use, fully get use out of it. Cause there's just so much available to us. And so the world has changed so much for marketers. So I think it's really neat that that's what you focus on. Every marketer needs needs somebody like that, kind of looking over their shoulder and helping them. Jon (05:35): Yeah. And you know, we're, we're on the Budweiser hot seat here in terms of performance, right, as marketers. And it may not seem that way. No one ever tells you that as a marketer, you just kind of discover it. So and especially as a head of marketing, your shelf, life is not that long. So you better be putting points on that scoreboard quickly. And it takes a village to get the right business processes, the right measurement, the right systems in place. And to your point, now we have 7,000 MarTech choices out there. 10 years ago, it was maybe in the hundreds. So it is exploded. And I think that's kind of where our direction for my agency kind of morphed was we broadly now see two major issues. One is how can we grow faster with this new technology and how do we get the most ROI out of the investments, whether it's measurement or otherwise. Jon (06:35): And sometimes measurement is a distinct question that comes up in and of itself. But those are kind of like the categories now that we're finding most companies asking about in those first two categories, they kind of sorta existed. Like the MarTech really didn't exist at all. But the, the growth one people kind of thought about it, but they're thinking about it a whole lot more, especially post COVID. So those are the three buckets that I'd say today. I think we broadened our lens from that emotion that I felt a few years ago. Because of exactly what you said, the landscape has changed quite a bit. Kathleen (07:11): Yeah. Now one of the areas where you're, I think doing some really interesting and, and forward-thinking work is, is in the area of account based marketing which I feel like has become a big buzzword in the marketing world, but it's really interesting because I'm a part of a couple Slack groups for marketing leaders and sales leaders. And one of them is the revenue collective, which is a fantastic group. And I remember we had a, I co-lead the, the Washington DC focus group for them. And we had a conversation about account based marketing and everybody wanted to talk about it, but then we get on the call. And first of all, nobody really could define it. And those who tried, none of them had the same definition and nobody was nobody really, at least by their own way of defining it was doing it. And so I feel like this, there's this interesting paradox with ABM where we all have heard of it and think we should be doing it. And yet not a lot of people are, and those that are doing it probably aren't like really doing it. So maybe coming to this conversation from that perspective, maybe we could begin by just having you really define what ABM is to you. And, and we could use that as a jumping off point. Jon (08:34): Yeah, no that I could, I could see why there'd be some confusion. And maybe as a precursor to that, I'm drawing upon a hundred plus ABM experiences that we've been through primarily through relationship that we orchestrated through Demandbase slash Engagio. And we've had a great relationship them and through our own mechanisms as well. So across those experiences, I could see why a question would come up. And by the way, if you don't have that well-defined definition, even in your own company, it makes it very challenging to measure and to improve. So oftentimes we start with defining what is account based marketing. Now your mileage can vary quite a bit depending on the type of company that you're dealing with. Right? So typically we see two classes of companies that are doing account based marketing right now. The first class would be more or less along the lines of very large companies. Jon (09:35): So for example, one of my clients McAfee, we did a quite a bit of ABM work for where they had a global sales organization. And one of their challenges was pivoting from a lead based system to an account based system. They have a very different challenge because they've acquired a lot of companies and they're doing a lot of upsell cross sell. So in bigger companies, it's a, an upsell cross sell type initiative. Now it contrast that to another one of our clients code science, as an example, they build apps for the app exchange on Salesforce are explosively growing right now. And they too had a lead based system wanting to pivot into an account based system and why they wanted to do that was really because of growth. So it was new account growth in very specific tiered vertical markets. Jon (10:26): And so account based marketing terminology is used there in terms of acquisition, as well as the upsell and cross sell. There are probably other ways you could define it. I've seen definitions in terms of a triangle of very strategic accounts. Perhaps you're only focused on three to five strategic accounts versus kind of a mid tier accounts. There always seems to be tiering that's involved when it comes time to whatever the strategy might be. So I guess the answer is it depends a lot on the situation but getting that definition right in your company and making sure that it's well understood is critical for the measurement side of things. Kathleen (11:11): I'm glad that you started with what you did because at least in my own experience, I think that the big mistake a lot of marketers make is they define ABM, not by what it really is, but by how it manifests in terms of tactics. And so there are a lot of people who think ABM is just targeted, dimensional or direct mail, right? And then there are people who think it's a particular way of approaching paper, click advertising. And then there are people who see it as a combination of both like, but that is not really ABM. Those are the tactics that you use to carry out your broader ABM strategy. I think you defined it really nicely, which it's really a shared definition of how you're going to go to market and how you segment your list and focus and prioritize at least if I'm hearing you correctly. Jon (12:03): Yes. Yeah. I think you're exactly right. I think you're exactly right. It's almost, in some cases it's almost doing demand generation a lot better than what perhaps we've done before. So I think it's confusing because there's so much technology out there. Now you have the salespeople that have their own definition of account-based, whatever sales, marketing, everything, you know, whatever the flavor is du jour. And then you've got marketers that also have their definition. So it's chaos in terms of definitions which makes it really, really challenging for marketers to say, Hey, I produced X number of MQLs or marketing qualified accounts for, for sales to then go target or go after. So I'm not surprised that you found, you know, what you saw in that Slack channel. It's not a surprise to me. Kathleen (12:54): Well, and then the other thing that I find interesting about ABM and this came up in that conversation, I mentioned that we had in the revenue collective because we had half of the people on the call were sales and half were marketing. And what became very clear very quickly is that it's, it's not, it is something that spans both groups. And it, you know, we always talk about the importance of sales and marketing alignment, but I would say perhaps with ABM, more so than most things, it's so important because there were people who sort of said, well, I'm in marketing and we've started doing ABM, but the sales team's not on board, which basically means you're not really doing ABM. And then we have other people who are like our sales team has a list of, you know, tier one, two and three accounts, but our marketing isn't really doing anything, which also, you know, so it's, it's, that, that is also interesting to me is that it really needs to be a joint effort between the two and, and getting that coordination seems to be more difficult maybe than it should be. Jon (13:55): Yeah. This is a topic we've, we've been talking sales and marketing alignment. We've been talking about for 20 years and I think you're, you're hitting the nail on the head in terms of, for ABM to be successful you really have to have that alignment. And if you have an SDR function, that's the connective tissue, meaning it's the connective tissue between marketing and sales. So you're only as good as that connective tissue in terms of targeting. And let me give you an example on that. I won't name names, but we were in another client situation and you got to remember SDR is a very, very difficult job, very, very challenging job, and probably the most valued job from some surveying that I've done with my peers in terms of what the next generation CMO is. Having said, that we found SDRs that were faking Amazon gift deliveries and to book meetings, because that's how they were incented to get meetings. Jon (14:52): Now, you think about the brand damage that you're doing when now when you're 22 or 23, I don't know what you were like when you were 22 or 23. I couldn't even remember, you know, my head for my elbow back then, but it's a tough job. It's a pressure cooker job that you've got to get these meetings. So you know, bad behavior, but the damage that, that does to the brand and, you know, forget about ABM, just growth. Like how can you possibly grow when you're, you're, you're doing something like that. So that's one very clear example of why that function is so important in account based marketing of that handoff between marketing and sales and that, that connective layer. Kathleen (15:36): I think you hit the nail on the head with the SDR being the connector and it's, it's interesting, cause you do hear more and more conversation about SDRs traditionally having been thought of as sitting in sales and now more and more we're seeing them sitting in marketing perhaps for that very reason. So I'm, I would love to, to hear from you, I think for a lot of people it's hard to, to really picture what a best in class ABM strategy looks like without kind of having some examples. And you do work with a lot of companies, as you mentioned maybe you could share, and you don't need to name names if you can't, but I'd love to hear some examples of some campaigns that have gone really well and been super effective. And what goes into that? Jon (16:20): Yeah, it's a, a thoughtful question. And just thinking back to a couple end points like to me, the end point is what have you done to move the needle from a certain stage? So I can think of cases where we've helped move the needle from say a stage zero to stage one, and we can measurably see what that conversion improvement is over a period of time. So I could give you an example of where we more than doubled it from a 22 to 49% jumped from stage zero to stage one and how we got there was really through a series of plays a series of plays, meaning it wasn't just marketing batch and blasting a bunch of emails. It was being really thoughtful toward very specific accounts. So it started with what accounts were you focused on? And within those accounts, do you have the right contacts, are the contacts that you have? Jon (17:21): Do you have enough research that's done on those contacts? So in this case, in order to get to that doubling, we had to do a lot of pre-work and do some research on those contacts. Then it became a question of what that campaign strategy was. So together with sales, we put together a coordinated touch strategy between marketing and sales, electronic outreach with phone outreach via LinkedIn direct sequence, as well as a marketing followup. So kind of a multitouch cadence or approach. And what we found was the more obviously, I mean, everybody talks about it. The more personalized you can get, the more relevant you will be to that end user. We spent a lot of time on that personalization. It's really hard to do at, you know, people talk about personalization at scale. The most effective way that we have found doing that is actually offshoring research at a very low cost and doing a lot of groundwork that the SDRs quite frankly could or should be doing, but it's, it's a function of their time. So what you're doing is you're trying to speed up some of the research process of the SDRs. So in this case, as we did the multitouch, the SDRs were prepared with their outreach and their canes with some nuggets that they could drop into their sequences and then target that end user. Kathleen (18:47): So can you just, sorry, I want to clarify when you say offshoring research, what kind of research is this? Like, what are you looking to surface? Jon (18:54): So it, it, we've got if you're familiar with a Miller Heiman blue sheets model, it's a similar model to some of the questions that are typically needed to be addressed going beyond firmographic information account industry, revenue size employees. It could get down to somebody's college or university, which you could scrape off of LinkedIn, and you can potentially personalize that the interests in terms of what they follow. There are now vendors that kind of focus in an in and around that area as well. So if you don't want to off shore, you could get a vendor that would focus on it. Anything that could get it a little bit more personalized and then doing the account-based research itself. So any G2 that you can gather as far as what some of the company initiatives are, that two would go into this form. So the way we did it was we had a set of questions that they would go and, and why we offshored is, you know, we would structure it in a way where they would have to fill out or populate the questions and do the research via the web to them present back to the SDRs. And it would be resident in Salesforce, such that you could, you could pull out access information as needed. So that's how, how we would approach that. Kathleen (20:17): What's an example of how an SDR might use some of that? Jon (20:22): Really, really good questions. So we've seen actually an evolution of this too. At, at first we kind of let SDRs, we would give the information to say, you know, have added SDRs, do whatever you need to do over time. What we've learned is there's a lot of benefit and value of having marketing really create the cadence structure or the message and the outreach with the fields that might be populated by the SDRs through that research. So marketing is really the skeleton and they provide the skeleton. It doesn't matter where the SDRs report to, and why we, we came to that conclusion is it totally avoids the Amazon gift scenario and it controls the message. And typically salespeople are grateful that you take, as a marketer, interest in that. And sometimes marketers end up ending the, that tool as well, like the sales loft or the, the outreach. But anyway, to answer your question, I'm, I'm deviating a bit, what we would do then is give them the opportunity to pull that information from the research and drop it into the template, and they're going to have to massage it. There's some level of massaging that has to be done, but what they're not doing as a wholesale net, new creation of that template and that outreach. Kathleen (21:46): Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. So we have really good research on the front end. We have marketing essentially dictating messaging frameworks, so that SDRs, you know, are not creating it out of whole cloth every time they have a conversation. And your SDR is really trying to get you that first meeting. What are some of the other elements of, of these really great campaigns you've worked on? Jon (22:13): Yeah, some sometimes we've seen, and I wouldn't say in all cases because I wouldn't want to mislead people, but in some cases doing a direct mail or a customized mail campaign somewhere early on in that prospecting cycle has been helpful. There are a couple companies that are out there that do that. But the one that jumps out to me that we've recently have experienced with one of our own clients is a company called Alyce where Alyce has a lot of sophistication around the interests of the end user and can pull information from the web and make recommendations based on the interest. So for example let's say I was the prospect and you can see visually behind me, I've got a lot of college basketball memorabilia behind me. So it's likely that a system like Alyce would pull that information and say, Hey, Jon is really interested in college basketball, specifically the university of Connecticut college basketball, and maybe there's something related to that, that you could recommend under a certain budget that could eventually get to Jon. And there are ways to get it to the home address now as well. So that has been an effective way. It flies close a little bit to the sun of, you don't want to do a quid pro quo, like, Hey, I'm buying your first meeting. But sometimes what we see is it's, it can be an effective way to kind of break the ice. Or if that first meeting's already established, the second or third meeting, it's just helpful to kind of maintain that momentum. Kathleen (23:52): Yeah, I've done a little bit of that kind of mailing in a past life. And I found that the real utility of it was twofold. One it's getting past gatekeepers, especially if you're trying to connect with somebody who's fairly high level in an organization. You know, flat mail does not do nearly as well at that. And secretaries, personal assistants, et cetera. If it's a package, if it has something personalized, they're going to forward it on. They might open it. They might not, but they're going to forward it on. And then the other one is just, I think, on the recipient end, at least through the feedback I've gotten, if it is truly well thought out, and if you've done a good job of it, a lot of times you'll have, like, we had somebody, this was back in the early days when I had my agency, we actually had a guy that we had been trying to get a meeting with, write us and say, wow, you really like hit the nail on the head with that. Like it's worth having a conversation just cause I totally respect how well-targeted this was. And I think, I think it can peak somebody's interest if you're able to, to really nail something that matters to them. Jon (25:02): I think a good example of that was the last physical conference marketing conference that you and I think were both, that was the demand gen conference in February and Phoenix or Scottsdale. And there was somebody on stage in the millennial section that talked about how she received a yoga mat. And she said she was blown away because she's like I do yoga 24 by seven and out of the blue, this person, after I was already in a sales cycle toward midway or toward the end, sent me this out of the blue. And she's like, it resonated so much. And here she is telling an audience of a thousand plus people of marketers, right? Like we all, we're all drinking the Koolaid. But it was really a really powerful example as to the level of connection, if you can get that personalized touch. And that's where I think Alyce kind of separates themselves from kind of the other, other systems that I've seen on the market that our clients sometimes use as well, but where they can kind of separate themselves as they have the intelligence to figure out what does this person really, really what are they interested in? Jon (26:11): What's relevant to them? What's going to resonate with them? We've had situations where we've actually tested handpicking versus their system and their system has been more effective. So yeah, it's, it's been pretty, it's pretty amazing. And you know, that technology didn't exist 10 years ago, so it's a, it's a new world. So I think that those types of things help with ABM. It's not a Nirvana, it's not going to solve world hunger, but it, if you do things like that your chances of success go by an order of magnitude. Kathleen (26:44): Now you mentioned as part of what you were just describing that it's, there are ways of getting home addresses. And I feel like this is the challenge we're all facing right now is that, you know, people are not in their offices. And so what used to be a simple exercise of, you know, look up the website, scrape the address and go is, is no longer. So can you just touch on, are there any particular tools or anything that you like or a strategy for tackling that? Jon (27:10): Yeah. And I think a couple of the the direct mail providers Alyce and Sendoso specifically, and probably PFL, I just have not checked with them recently, but it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't thought of this because the other two have, they now have figured out a way to drop in a form and capture the home address without storing the data longterm. So they've figured out a way to, to reroute that direct mail and bring it to the home address. There have been some instances that I've heard of, some people were early on with COVID they were very reluctant to receive direct mail because they just didn't know. But I've heard that more as the exception rather than the rule. But, but there are some of those case is out there. The other thing, the other value in doing that validation is direct mail can be a very expensive proposition. And there are ways that we, we have recently figured out ways to do this where you can actually track the ROI, whether it's gaining new meetings or accelerating the pipeline, but it's it's PhD level work like something that would come intuitively you really have to stare at the systems to figure it out. But there are ways where you can actually now begin to track that depending on your marketing automation system, so that too can be valuable data to, to bring back to your company. Kathleen (28:34): Yeah, you're so right, because when it comes to that direct mail stuff having done a few of those, I would say if they're easy to do, but they're easy to do wrong in the sense that you could send a really cheap, not so great item that doesn't, that isn't effective and you could spend a lot of money in doing it. Or you could like narrow your list a little bit more and spend more per person and really get amazing results. And I think that's, that's where a lot of people go wrong is they try to go too big and, and it doesn't, it doesn't have the effectiveness of spending more per individual getting a really fantastic item and maybe doing it in stages. Like we used to always tell clients when I had my agency, pick, you know, if you want to spend a lot, pick 20 accounts that are like super strategic and spend a lot on them, send it out, see how it works. And if it works, then do the next one. Right? Jon (29:28): Yeah. Yeah. Staging, I think is a terrific idea because it does take time like any of this marketing technology or, or anything new, it takes time to see those results. It takes time for end users to adopt to. So you're talking about maybe working something new into a sales person's workflow that didn't exist before or an SDR workflows. So you're changing behavior, which I don't know about you, but for me, it's difficult to change behavior. So it, it takes time, but once you figure it out it's pretty powerful. It's, it's really, really powerful. Kathleen (30:04): Yeah. Now moving beyond the mail piece, because I feel like we could spend all day on that as a topic in and of itself easily. And it's an interesting topic, but when you look at approaching ABM campaigns what are some of the other pieces that go into those campaigns beyond mail and SDRs? Jon (30:25): Let's see, what other things? Other than the personalization piece I guess the biggest piece would be the measurement side of things and really making sure that you are capturing what it is that these campaigns are producing and ideally in Salesforce. So there's probably, there's a whole campaign strategy to get to that point, but the end point would be, you really want to have a clean and crisp measurement. And I'll give you an example of what I mean by clean and crisp measurement. So it's easy for us to get caught up in the campaign lingo and you probably have used Salesforce before. I'll give you an example, the leads object in Salesforce, what they call the leads object, doesn't necessarily relate to anything else in the database. So you could have all sorts of activity on the lead side of things and your salespeople who may work in your contacts and accounts may never see any of that activity. Jon (31:26): Even if you have the technology to in theory, link those two up, there still can be cases where there's activity on the leads that are not coming over to the accounts and to the contact side. So to answer your question on the campaigns, if you're doing all this campaign activity and you're like, Hey, I'm a, I'm doing this great, great job, but if your underlying processes aren't right in Salesforce, it's not going to matter. Your campaign strategy is not going to matter, or it may matter, but somebody else is going to get credit for it. Meaning the salespeople will take credit and say, Hey, we did all this work. Marketing didn't do the work. So really getting clarity around kind of that measurement and NPS is a very, very critical piece. And I can give you an example of a client of ours, that, where they came into the situation and through a dashboarding, we, we learned a couple different things. Jon (32:20): One was there was all this activity going on on the lead side and they couldn't understand it because it wasn't in their targeted tier one, tier two and tier three, they're running all these campaigns. And lo and behold, what we discovered was their ICP was not correct. They thought it was a certain assumption, but through our dashboarding, what we realized was there was a new target market that was returning, eventually returning, a lot of revenues. So what they ended up doing was pivoting the entire company. This is post COVID pivoting the entire company toward that vertical market and, and getting a lot more folks just because of all this activity that was going on. So that's another reason to dashboard. The other example that same client, what we discovered was in the sales efforts, we found that the sales team was following up on certain accounts. Jon (33:14): And in one dashboard we could see the activity level of sales and we could see the activity level of marketing, and we could see that the accounts were different. And so we were like, well, why is there a difference? It goes back to what you said, you know, a minute five, which is why aren't we aligned? Well, now we can visually see sales is focused on five accounts and they're hyper engaged here. Our marketing's got six accounts that are hyper engaged, that that sales is not. So visually we now have the data where we can say, Hey, we're just not aligned. So it goes beyond the theory of alignment. You can actually see it. And this all rolls up to your campaign question, like, what are you doing right in your campaigns, if you're able to dashboard some of that, your chances of campaign effectiveness and future investment go up by an order of magnitude, because now you can have the conversation. It could be a lot more data driven versus, you know, Hey, I just ran this great seven touch cadence, or with direct mail and this, that the other because you really need to measure that days on. Kathleen (34:20): I love that, that we're sort of bookending this conversation and coming back to measurement. Cause I feel like that's what we started with. Like that was the Genesis of your business. And it, it, it does it like always comes back to that. Right. so speaking of measuring, can you maybe share with me a sense of what kind of ROI some of these companies have seen from account based marketing when they do it? Right. Jon (34:45): Ooh, good question. And I've got a bunch of statistics, but I don't have them off the top of my head Kathleen (34:50): Ballpark. Jon (34:54): The hard thing with ROI is you really need to track costs too, with your upside revenue. And what I find is very few companies have that level of visibility. So I don't have a really solid answer on that one other than I can get back to you, but that's not gonna help your podcast. But typically what I see is mostly on the revenue side. So for example, I'll see engagement in terms of accounts that are happening. So if, if you're getting a large percentage of accounts that didn't engage pre ABM to post engagement, that would be a mechanism. So if you have the definitions, right, you're, you're making progress as a milestone of saying, I've got a certain percentage that are showing account engagement and within those account engagements, what percent are then converting to an opportunity after that initial ABM strategy implementation. And that's usually more of a revenue metric as opposed to an ROI metric, if, and I'm really, you know, I'm splitting hairs here. I also think that not a lot of board members and VCs are asking per se about ROI. They're asking about some other questions. They're asking about a cost of acquisition, CAC, LTV to CAC ratios. So they're going more broadly bubbling things up at a more broad sense, which are typically manual calculations. Kathleen (36:34): Do you find that cost of acquisition comes down dramatically with ABM or no? Jon (36:39): I think it all depends if, if your, your focus on strategic accounts, it's costly, no matter what, because you got to, you got a huge buying committee. It's a lot of energy and effort to kind of crack that from a strategic account, but if you're doing a one to many, yeah, it can, but I think it's, it's an investment, no matter how you slice and dice it. I don't think it's any cheaper than demand gen. I think demand gen is kind of the first generation of marketing automation where you can just kind of spray and pray, but you're using a lot of the same technologies and the same people as you are with ABM. So I don't know if there's a huge savings per se. It's just a little bit more focused effort. I think that that would be the best way to think of it. Kathleen (37:28): Yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, it's, I feel like this, this could be a 10 hour long podcast on the topic of ABM. But it cannot be because we do not have 10 hours nor does anyone want to sit and listen for that long. So I want to switch gears for a second and ask you a couple of questions that I love to ask my guests. The first is, you know, we talk a lot about inbound marketing on this podcast, and I'm wondering if there's a particular company or a specific individual that you would point to that you think is really setting the standard for what it means to be a great inbound marketer these days. Jon (38:03): Hmm. Great question. I think some of the vendors that do a really good job at it, Drift, Gong, the usual suspects, Drift, Gong, HubSpot I would say, would be the strong, strong performers in terms of they're putting out a lot of content. Drift feels like a very natural kind of inboundish, I don't know if you'd kind of call it inbound. It's not, you're not really calling people if somebody has to reach to your website. So I guess that that would be an inbound. So I would say those three are the ones that come to mind in terms of who's doing it really, really well. Kathleen (38:41): Drift certainly comes up a lot when I ask that question and the other ones, I mean, while, I mean a HubSpot of course but Gong has started coming up more and more lately. So it's always fascinating to me to see the trends in how people answer. And when I start to hear certain names over and over again, like that's an interesting indicator. Second question is that... Jon (38:59): Gong has done a phenomenal job there. Kathleen (39:01): Oh, sorry. Sorry. Jon (39:03): No, go ahead. Kathleen (39:03): I was just gonna say the other, the other thing I hear a lot of marketers say is that they really struggle trying to keep pace with all the things that are changing in the world of digital marketing. And I think this conversation is a great example, this struggle with like, what really is ABM and how really do you do it? What, how do you personally stay up to date and current on all things digital? Jon (39:25): Yeah. And that's a, a common issue right now, you know, going back to MarTech of three to five years ago, there was a thousand MarTech providers now 7,000. So how do you keep your finger on the pulse? It will sound self-serving, but relying on agencies that spend time with a lot of different technologies, cross organizations and tapping them, I'm surprised actually that more of our clients don't rely more on us for that type of advisory work. Typically we're attending a lot of the conferences. So you'll see me at either speaking or attending a lot of the major conferences and whereas they may get the opportunity to go to one or two, I'm going to eight in a year or 10 in a year. So we're leaning heavily on kind of your partners for that expertise or understanding is certainly one way post COVID now. Jon (40:25): I think another way is just Slack and being, you had mentioned, Hey, you're involved in Slack channels. And I think you and I are involved in some of the same Slack channels cause we've been communicating on some other things there, but post COVID, I think a lot of stuff now is just gone to communities like Slack. And there are a number of different communities, whether they're marketing operations specific, growth operations specific. I'm on a board that is focused on growth ops and we've got a community. There's CMOs specific Slack channels. So that too would be an area to ask, you know, colleagues. There's even geographical ones. I found one up in the Boston area that that has a heavy concentration of Boston based heads of marketing. So, you know, I think triangulating across all of those sources, as I think about it out loud are probably, that's how I keep kind of in the know so to speak. Kathleen (41:20): Yeah, I think you're right with a lot of these communities. It's a way to shortcut what otherwise would be a much longer process, you know, and, and just sort of take it from the people that, you know, know a lot and let them tell you what, what need to care about. But yeah, I mean, I rely on those communities heavily, although I will say my latest pain point is that I'm in too many Slack groups and there are a few that are just a lot of noise and I'm, I'm now to the point where I'm thinking I'm gonna just exit some of them and focus on the two or three that are really delivering value. Cause it can become a huge, huge distraction. Jon (41:54): I, yeah, I could totally see that as well. And sometimes what I do with Slack is I kind of cherry pick and go in and out, the beauty of Slack for me is if you ask an ignorant question about two days later, everybody forgets about it. Cause it's so, you know, it's pushed up in the, in the threads of threads. So I feel you on that and that's how I kind of dip in and out. I'm almost like a seagull I'll fly in. I'll ask a couple of questions and then I'll pop out. Kathleen (42:23): Yeah. My favorite feature of Slack is that you can set up your sidebar to show you all of your unreads. And I can just like come back in, look at all the unreads. Mark them as read, see the ones that are important and then go. Cause it's really distracting if you try to like jump in every time you get a notification. Jon (42:42): I hear you loud and clear on that. I think that that too could be a generational thing for me. I would never want, some of our clients ask us to have Slack. I reluctantly agree to that because it is incredibly disruptive to my workflow. It is incredibly disruptive to the workflow. So, but there are ways that we've integrated Slack with other project management tools that have helped speed up the process. So it helps them and it helps us but from a workflow process, that can be very disruptive. I agree with you on that. Yeah. Kathleen (43:15): Well I'm sure that there are some people who are listening, who have questions or would love to reach out and connect with you online or learn more about B2B fusion. What is the best way for them to do that? Jon (43:25): Yeah. Great question. So two ways. One would be on LinkedIn or you can always email Jon dot Russo, Jon.russo@b2bfusiongroup.com. And at any point in time, if you just want to have an exploratory conversation or need something to bounce off, I'm happy to do a quick call with you. And you know, we can, we can compare notes, so don't hesitate to reach out Kathleen (43:45): Great. And of course, as always, I will put the links that Jon just mentioned in the show notes. So head there, if you want to reach out and connect with him and if you're listening and you enjoyed this episode, I would love it. If you would head to Apple podcasts or the platform of your choice and leave the podcast, a preferably five star review so that others can find us. And if you know somebody who's doing really great inbound marketing work, tweet me at @workmommywork because I would love to make them my next interview. Thank you so much, Jon. This was a lot of fun. Jon (44:16): Thanks Kathleen. I really appreciate it.

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Sandy Hilton, David Butler and Bronnie Thompson on the show to discuss persistent pain during COVID-19.  In this episode, we discuss: -Shifting current healthcare curriculum to better educate clinicians on persistent pain -Can passive modalities empower people to pursue more active treatment options? -How to create more SIMS during the COVID-19 pandemic -Can telehealth appointments adequately address persistent pain? -And so much more!   Resources: International Association for the Study of Pain Website Factfulness Book David Butler Twitter Sandy Hilton Twitter Bronnie Thompson Twitter   A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!  Learn more about Four Ways That Outpatient Therapy Providers Can Increase Patient Engagement in 2020!                                                                      For more information Bronnie: I trained as an occupational therapist, and graduated in 1984. Since then I’ve continued study at postgraduate level and my papers have included business skills, ergonomics, mental health therapies, and psychology. I completed by Masters in Psychology in 1999, and started my PhD in 2007. I’ve now finished my thesis (yay!) and can call myself Dr, or as my kids call me, Dr Mum.   I have a passion to help people experiencing chronic health problems achieve their potential. I have worked in the field of chronic pain management, helping people develop ‘self management’ skills for 20 years. Many of the skills are directly applicable to people with other health conditions.   My way of working: collaboratively – all people have limitations and vulnerabilities – as well as strengths and potential. I use a cognitive and behavioural approach – therapy isn’t helpful unless there are visible changes! I don’t use this approach exclusively, because it is necessary to ‘borrow’ at times from other approaches, but I encourage ongoing evaluation of everything that is put forward as ‘therapy’. I’m especially drawn to what’s known as third wave CBT, things like mindfulness, ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) and occupation.   I’m also an educator. I take this role very seriously – it is as important to health care as research and clinical skill. I offer an active knowledge of the latest research, integrated with current clinical practice, and communicated to clinicians working directly with people experiencing chronic ill health. I’m a Senior Lecturer in the Department of Orthopaedic surgery & Musculoskeletal Medicine at the University of Otago Christchurch Health Sciences.   I also offer courses, training and supervision for therapists working with people experiencing chronic ill health.   For more information Sandy: Sandy graduated from Pacific University (Oregon) in 1988 with a Master of Science in Physical Therapy and a Doctor of Physical Therapy degree from Des Moines University in December 2013. She has worked in multiple settings across the US with neurologic and orthopaedic emphasis combining these with a focus in pelvic rehabilitation for pain and dysfunction since 1995. Sandy teaches Health Professionals and Community Education classes on returning to function following back and pelvic pain, has assisted with Myofascial Release education, and co-teaches Advanced Level Male Pelvic Floor Evaluation and Treatment. Sandy’s clinical interest is chronic pain with a particular interest in complex pelvic pain disorders for men and women. Sandy is the co-host of Pain Science and Sensibility, a podcast on the application of research into the clinic.   For more information on David: Understanding and Explaining Pain are David’s passions, and he has a reputation for being able to talk about pain sciences in a way that everyone can understand. David is a physiotherapist, an educationalist, researcher and clinician. He pioneered the establishment of NOI in the early 1990’s. David is an Adjunct Associate Professor at the University of South Australia and an honoured lifetime member of the Australian Physiotherapy Association.   Among many publications, his texts include Mobilisation of the Nervous System 1991 The Sensitive Nervous System (2000), and with Lorimer Moseley –  Explain Pain (2003, 2013), The Graded Motor Imagery Handbook (2012), The Explain Pain Handbook: Protectometer (2015) and in 2017, Explain Pain Supercharged. His doctoral studies and current focus are around adult conceptual change, the linguistics of pain and pain story telling. Food, wine and fishing are also research interests.   Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy (00:00:23): Hello everyone. And thank you for joining us today for this webinar. For those of you who are here live, you got to hear a little bit of pre-conversation which is great. And of course in that pre-conversation we were talking about all the things happening in the world today, specifically here in the United States with a lot of unrest and protests for very, very good reasons, in my opinion. And so we just want to acknowledge that and that we see it and that we are trying to learn, and we are doing our best to be allies to our fellow healthcare workers and citizens across the country and across the world for all of the other countries who have been showing solidarity. So I'm Karen Litzy, I'm going to be sort of moderating this panel of minds and I'm going to now go round and just have each of them say a little bit about themselves. So Sandy I’ll start with you.   Sandy Hilton: Okay. Hi, I'm Sandy Hilton. I'm a physiotherapist here in Chicago, Illinois with Sarah Haag. We have entropy physiotherapy and our clinic is predominantly working with pain. It's like a hundred percent of my case load is people in pain and about 80% of that is pelvic pain in particular. But I still see, you know, the rest of humans. David Butler (00:01:49): Hi, I'm David Butler from Adelaide Australia. I'm a physio, although I'm completely a professional and I believe everybody has the exact same role in treating pain. I'm trying to hire, but I can't retire. And then in world, our changing knowledge and our changing potential just keeps me, keeps me on track. So yeah, any sort of pain I'm happy to talk about. Bronnie Thompson (00:02:16): I’m Bronnie Thompson, I'm an occupational therapist by original training with some psychology thrown in, and I'm an educator and clinician as well, but a teeny tiny bit of research, but not much. And I'm a painiac and quite proud of it actually.   Karen Litzy: Excellent. So again, everyone, like I said, if you have questions as we go along, please feel free to put them in the Q and a part. And I will be looking at that as we're going through now, like I said, we've got some questions ahead of time, but before we get to some of the questions that some of the listeners and viewers have wanted to ask, I also want to just quickly acknowledge that we've got a bit of a mixed audience, so we've got healthcare practitioners and clinicians and we've also got people living with pain. Karen Litzy (00:03:11): And so as a clinician for me, it's a great opportunity. I think to address people in pain who maybe don't have the access or the ability to kind of get this information that's in their town or where they're living. So I am really, I'm really looking forward to this discussion, especially for those people that are watching that are living with persistent pain. So the first question I'm going to ask is and I'll ask this of all of you. If you were to give a piece of advice to a new professional or a healthcare professional that is sort of newly working with people with persistent pain, what would that piece of advice be? Sandy Hilton (00:04:11): I'm in Chicago. I'm just going to take it. I really like to stress, especially to students that, you know, we get this concept that the longer you've been in the field, the better you are at it. And, I think that maybe we make different mistakes, but everyone is learning this. And there's so much about pain that we're learning. And so if you're just starting in, I don't know that you might have an easier time because you have less bad habits to get rid of and can start with some of the better newer research and avoid some of the mistakes we made. Bronnie Thompson (00:04:50): So she's doing the popcorn approach. She looks at me. And so I think my advice would be, listen, listen very carefully to what people tell you and trust that they're telling you your experience. Don't try and read stuff into it, just listen and reflect, show that you're listening by reflecting what you've heard. So you can give that you've understood one another, because it's really easy to come out of school with all of this knowledge packed up and your brain thinking, Oh, I've got to do an info dump just like that. And it's not that great for the person, stop and listen. David Butler (00:05:37): They are lovely comments. I'd add. I would welcome anybody to the most new and exciting area of health. And there is a true pain revolution out there. And I would say to anybody, when you come in to just lift your expectation of outcome or what, might've been five or 10 years ago, because the clinical trials and our knowledge of the potential for humans to change is just increasing so dramatically. And I say, now we can say think treatment, not necessarily management because for many people recovery or some form of recovery is on the cards and what's leading the charge is the talking and the movement therapies. It's not the drug therapies for chronic pain. And, I just like to reflect as an older therapist now, patients who maybe 10, 15 years ago with maybe complex post pain surgery or Phantom limbs or complex regional pain syndrome would have thought, and I can't really help here. Now we welcome them through the door and you can get such pleasure, pleasure from treating these people no matter how long they've had the problem. Karen Litzy (00:06:48): Great. And, I would echo what Bronnie said is, you know, really listen and also believe, you know, they're giving you their experience. So try and take your bias out of it and believe what they're telling you and try not to talk them out of it because you see this quite a bit of, Oh, I have pain with this. And well, do you really have pain with that? Or is your pain really that much? And as the patient, it's very frustrating to have someone try and tell you what your pain is. So I'm looking at it from the person who has lived with the really chronic and at times debilitating neck pain is just listen, which is good. Believe them, and try not to talk people out of their experiences because it's very frustrating and it's very sort of dehumanizing for the patient, you know? Karen Litzy (00:07:54): And when I look back at when I first met David and went up to him at an APTA event and said, would you like to be on my podcast? And he said, yeah, sure, but I'm going to New York. I said, Oh, well, that's great. Cause that's where I live. And so then he met me at my, where I was working at the time and spent two hours with me. And I just, after that felt like, Whoa, like this is the first time that someone really listened and didn't interrupt and believed what I was saying and really set me on a path that just changed my life. Like, I don't know where I would be, had I not had that encounter with David. I think it was like 2011 or 2012. And so I always reflect on that and try and be that person, because I know what it felt like. Karen Litzy (00:08:45): And then when someone does come in and, and gives you their full attention and their time and their understanding, and then says, well, challenges your beliefs in a positive way, it was something for me that, you know, and I've talked about it many times that just completely changed my pain and my life. And so, you know, try and be that person is what I would say to people.   Bronnie Thompson: It's like, we've got to remember that people with pain and I live with fibromyalgia, those of you that don't know that's my reality, it's our experience and what it's like to live without pain. You know, what it feels like to know the things that sit at off things that settle it down and our relationship to it, to that pain and conditions. We come in with a whole lot of knowledge about other people and what we've seen. So we are experts and a whole lot of stuff, but what we're not experiencing as this person's life, their experience via what they're wanting from us even, what's important to them. And that's where when we meet and we can kind of share the hidden paradigms things that we don't know about each other, then we've got a chance to make a huge change and that as we know, I just feel so good about what I do. I just love it. I'm such a pain geek. Sandy Hilton (00:10:09): And I think the pain science or the science of pain really gives as a clinician, a lot of comfort to the listen to them, believe them, you don't have to prove it. You don't have to go. And like they say, I hurt here. You don't have to go poke it to reproduce the symptoms to believe it. And that's how I was taught of you have to reproduce the symptoms so that you can document that it's true. And it was like, that's a giant piece of unnecessary that we don't even have to do anymore, which really saves us a lot of time, not to mention establishing that trust and not being one more person. That's poked them in the sore spot. But, that's the thing that I was taught in school. Bronnie Thompson (00:10:58): So the question is, do you think that all chronic pain patients were not treated particularly when they were having the first or second episodes of their acute pain or are they in any way destined to become chronic pain patients? Well, my story is I hurt my back. I was what, 21, 22, doing a tango with the patient and a doorway patient was bigger than me. I landed on the floor on my back and I had all the best evidence based treatment at the time, maybe not, maybe not all the ultrasound, but you know, they didn't lie. They're really and relax a bit. Bronnie Thompson (00:11:48): But I didn't recover. I was then seeing the Auckland regional pain Center with amazing dr. Mike Butler, who is a rheumatologist and founded, and basically was one of the first in this initiations of bringing the international association for the study of pain to New Zealand, good friend of Patrick Wall knew her stuff very well. Gave me the book the challenge of pain to read. So essentially an explain pain paradigm back in the eighties, I know pain pretty well. My pain has not gone away. So there are some people who will not have a complete recovery of all of their pain, but because none of our treatments provide a hundred percent abolition of pain and actually I'm comfortable with it. I live with the pain and it gives me some stuff that some other people don't have access to. I know what it's like to have every bit of my body feeling really rotten. Bronnie Thompson (00:12:53): At the same time. I'm not limited by my pain. And I think sometimes we look at pain removal is that end goal. But I think our end goal is to help people live full, productive, satisfying, joyful and enriched lives. And some people will bring the pain along with them and many people won’t have to and that's amazing. Let's let the person make that decision about what is the most important outcome. But yeah, sometimes we can do all the right things, but if you have a spinal cord injury and you've got a smashed up spine, probability is that at the moment, our technology doesn't give us a solution. We can help, but we can't always take it all away.   Karen Litzy: David, what are your thoughts on that, that sort of movement from acute pain to chronic pain? You know, what are your feelings on that is, is like you said, are you destined to have it are I know, cause I get this question a lot from people like, well, you know, it started out with like an ankle sprain or it started out with a knee sprain and now it's turned into this. So did I do something wrong or was something not done? David Butler (00:14:12): I think you’re not destined to have it, but I think our treatment or therapies and the politics of treating acute pain probably gets in the way. And I also think if someone's hurt their back or any part of their body bad enough to see a health professional, the data is that 50 or 60 or 70% will have a recurrence in the following year. Now most health professionals think a recurrence is a reinjury, but if they really explored what happened, that reoccurance probably happened at a time when they would look at down and flat the immune system's a bit out of balance and they might've just done something simple, lifted up and picked something we would now from pain science, reconceptualize that as well, that's quite good. It's your body testing yourself out like a fire alarm with all the stuff you've been through in the past. It's no wonder your brain. Wouldn't want to play it again to check out how your systems are working, but that just simple piece of knowledge and usually should check to make sure nothing serious has gone on because you check and you can normally say, well, that should ease in a couple of days. That's an example of a little bit of knowledge dampening down. They don't have to go through the old acute process again of more, x-rays more tests, more power. David Butler (00:15:31): I think if that's correct, that observation was seen for many years, it could save governments Billions. Bronnie Thompson (00:15:37): Oh, absolutely. We've got a great thing. The language we use don't we, is it an injury or is it just a cranky body? David Butler (00:15:46): That whole linguistics? And for me and my treatment, you're now a physio by trade. I feel it says important to help someone change the story, to have a story, to take their experience out into society and let it go. That to me is as important as having healthy movement, although they obviously like go together. Sandy Hilton (00:16:07): I was gonna say that the saving of money for systems, for sure, but also the saving of time for people and the saving in our healthcare system. Every test you go do is going to cost you a lot of money. And, that time that it takes to get it in a time away from work and family and the concern of what the test results will be. If we can divert them wisely to not do that when it's not really indicated, that's just so good.   Bronnie Thompson: Yeah. And then I also for, you know, I've had a test now I'm going to wait for the results and now I'm going to wait for what are they going to do as a result of those results? And then, Oh, it's the same. And it just feels very demoralizing to people. And I think that's something we need to think about with make the decision about when and we to stop doing investigations often. That's the sense of the clinician worrying that something, are they going to sue me? It’s not a good way to practice.   Karen Litzy: Yeah. here's another, we'll do this from Louise. She says, picking up on something David had said earlier, how do we move towards being more, a professional? How do we move the pain industry toward this goal? Excellent question Louise. David Butler (00:17:51): There's a lot of answers to it, but a couple would be, I think you just got a quite badly out there would know sports trainers who could deliver an equally good management strategy to some physios, to some doctors, et cetera, right? This pain thing is across all spectrums, which is why the national pain society meetings are so good. And why everybody there is usually humbled and talks to all the other professionals because they realize the thing we're dealing with is quite hard. And we need all the help that that's a weekend get, but it ultimately comes back to provision of pain education throughout all the professions and that pain education should be similar amongst all the professions it's not happening yet. We've tried pushing it, but it's not out there. And it's incredible considering the cost of pain is to the world is higher than cancer and lung diseases together. Karen Litzy (00:18:51): Yeah. The burden of care is trillions of dollars across the world. And, you know, even in the United States, I think the burden of care of back pain is third behind heart disease, diabetes. And then it was like all cancers put together, which, you know, and then it was back pain. So, and, and even I was in Sri Lanka a couple of years ago and I did a talk on pain and I wanted to know what the burden of disease of back pain was in Sri Lanka. And it was number two. So it's not like this is unusual even across different, completely different cultural and socioeconomic countries. And, you know, David kind of what you said, picks up on a question that we got from Pete Moore. And he said, why isn't it mandatory that pain self management and coaching skills isn't taught in medical schools? Is it because there isn't expertise to teach it? Well, I mean, David's right here. He's semi retired. David Butler (00:19:58): Why isn’t that mandatory? That's a big, big question. I would say that the change is happening. Change is happening. I would say that at least half of the lectures or talks I give now are to medical professionals and out of my own profession or even more than half. So yeah, change is happening, but it's incredibly slow. It needs a bloody revolution, quite frankly. A complete reframing of the problem and awareness that this problem that we can do something about it and awareness that there's so much research about it let's just get out and do it now. Sandy Hilton (00:20:40): The international association for the study of pains curriculum and interdisciplinary curriculum would be a nice place to start. And I know some schools here in the States are using it in different disciplines to try and get at least a baseline.   Bronnie Thompson: The way we do it as the core for the post grad program, that I am the academic coordinator for it. Doesn't that sound like a tiny, tiny faculty. But anyway the other thing that we know is that looking at the number of hours of pain, education, Elizabeth, Shipton, who's just about completed. If she hasn't already completed her PhD, looking at medical education and the amount, the number of hours of pain, it's something like 20 over an entire education for six to six or more years. In fact, veterinarians get more time learning about pain then we do then doctors medical practitioners do, which suggests something kind of weird going on there. Bronnie Thompson (00:21:50): So I think that's one of the reasons that it's seen as a not a sexy thing to know about and pain is seen as a sign of, or a symptom of something else. So if we treat that something else in pain will just disappear, but people carry the meaning and interpretation in their understanding with them forever. We don't unlearn that stuff. So it makes it very difficult, I think for clinicians to know what to do. Because they're also thinking of pain is the sign of something else not is a problem in its own, right? Persistent pain is a really a problem in its own right. Karen Litzy (00:22:29): Yeah. And wouldn't it be nice if we were all on the same page or in the same book? I wouldn't even say the same chapter, but maybe in the same book, across different healthcare practitioners, whether that be the nurse, the nurse practitioner, the clinical nurse specialist, the physician, the psychologist, the therapist, physical therapist, it would be so nice if we were all at least in the same book, because then when your patient goes to all these people and they hear a million different things, it's really confusing. I think it's very, very difficult for them to get a good grasp on their pain. If they're told by one practitioner, Oh, see, on this MRI, it's that little part of your disc. And that's what it is. So we just have to take that disc out or put it back in or give a shot to this. Karen Litzy (00:23:25): And, and then you go to someone else and they say, well, you know, you've had this pain for a couple of years, so, you know, it may not be what's on your scan. And then the patient's like, who am I supposed to believe? What am I going to do? And, and you don't blame the patient for that. I mean, that's, you'd feel this that's the way I, you know, I had herniated discs and I say, you just get a couple of epidurals and the pain goes away and then it didn't. And I was like, Oh, okay, now there's so my head, I was thinking, well, now there's really something wrong.   Sandy Hilton: That's the problem. Because yeah, if you think it's the thing you did that helped you or didn't help you, then you lose that internal control. Karen Litzy (00:24:13): Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think it's a great question and, and hopefully that's a big shift, but maybe it'll start to turn with the help of like the international association for the study of pain and some curriculum that can maybe be slowly entered or David can just go teach it virtually from different medical schools, just throwing it out. There is no pressure, no pressure. Okay. Speaking of modalities, we had a question. This is from someone with pain and it's what can be the appropriate regimen for usefulness of tens, for acute and chronic cervical and lumbar pain of nerve origin. So Bronnie, I know that you had said you had a little bit of input on this area, so why don't we start with you? And then we'll kind of go around the horn, if you will. Bronnie Thompson (00:25:24): I think of it in a similar way to any, any treatment, really, you need to try it and see whether it fits in your life. So if you are happy and tens feels good and you can carry it with you and you can tuck it in your pocket and you can do what you want to do. Why not just is, I would say the same about a drug. If you try a drug and it helps you and it feels good and you can cut the side effects, there's nothing wrong with it. Cause we're not the person living life. It's more to think about it in a population. How effective does this? And my experience with tens is that for some people it does help and it gives a bit of medium, like a couple of hours relief, but often it doesn't give long sustained relief and you have to carry this thing around. That's prone to breaking down and running out of batteries, right when you need it. So to me, it's agency, but then I put the person who's got the pain and the driving seat at all times to say, how would this fit in your life? Do you think you want to try this one out? It's noninvasive it's side effects. Some people don't like the experience and sometimes the sticky pads are a bit yuck on your skin, but you know, that's more bad. So yeah, that's my, my take on it. David Butler (00:26:44): I haven't used it for 40 years after the second world war. When you start to stop, when they, I was friendly with the guy who invented it and I'm thinking it'd be happy pet we'll would be happy to, with these comments that I agree with what Bonnie said. Absolutely. I would also say that, hi, wow, you have got something there which can change your pain by scrambling some of the impulses coming in. You can change it, let's add some other things which can change the impulses coming in or going out as well. So let's use that. Let's get you building something, maybe something repetitive or something contextual or something as well. So you you've shown change you're on the track. So I would use it as a big positive to push them on keep using it, but on the biggest things. Sandy Hilton (00:27:32): Yeah, the advantage is it's. So it's gotten so inexpensive. So for something that has minimal to no side effects and has the potential of helping them to move again, which I think is always the thing that we're aiming for. It's not very expensive. But now like several hundred dollars, right? You can order it online. Now you don't even need a prescription or approval or anything like that. Karen Litzy (00:27:59): Yeah. Yeah. That's true. And something that I think is also important is, you know, you'll have people say, Oh, those passive modalities, that's passive. You know, I had a conversation with Laura Rathbone Muirs. Is that how you say the last name? I think that's right. Laura. And we were talking about this sort of passive versus active therapies and, you know, her take on, it was more from that if they're doing these passive modalities, they're giving away their control. And, she said something that really struck and, kind of what the three of you have just reinforced is that no, they still have that locus of control. Cause they're making that conscious effort, that conscious choice to try this, even though it's a passive modality, they still made the choice to use it. Karen Litzy (00:29:03): And I think that coupled with what David said, Hey, this made a difference. Maybe there's some other things that can make a difference that I think that I don't think they're losing that locus of control, or I don't think that they're losing they're reliant on passivity, right.   Sandy Hilton: When they have their own unit and they're not coming into the clinic to have it put on you. And you lie there on the bed while you do it.   Bronnie Thompson: It's something that you have out in the world. It's not different to sticking a cold compress on your forehead when you're feeling a bit sick, you know, we did it. That's just another thing that we can do. So I see it as a really not a bad thing. And it is in the context, you know, if you can do stuff while you've got it on, then it's the hold up problem, as long as you like.   Karen Litzy: Great, great. Yeah. As long as you like it. Exactly. Yep. Okay. so we've got another question that we got ahead of time and then there's some questions in the queue. So one of the questions that we got ahead of time was how do we explain pain responses like McKenzie central sensitization phenomenon in modern pain science understanding. David Butler (00:30:35): I'd answer that broadly by saying that the definition that we've used and shared with the public in the clinical sense is that we humans hurt when our brains weigh the world. And judge consciously subconsciously that there's more danger out there than safety. We hurt equally. We don't hurt when there's more safety out there, then danger. So somebody who's in a clinic and is bending in any way and it eases pain. There will never be one reason for it. So it might just be, that might just be the clinic. It might be the receptionist. It might be all adding up. It might be the movement. They might've done one movement. And so, Oh, I can do that. And then all safety away, we go again, the next movement helps within that mix. There may be something structural. You've done to tissues in the back and elsewhere that might have eased the nociceptors that barrage up. But by answer will always be that when pain changes, it's multiple things are coming together, contributing to them. And they'll never never just be related to nociception. Sandy Hilton (00:31:49): I have to say this to say, I am not McKenzie certified. So this is my interpretation of that. I like the concept of you can do a movement. That's going to help you feel better. And we're going to teach you how to do that throughout the day. Maybe as a little buffer to give you more room, to challenge yourself a little more knowing that you'll have a recovery. And I just pick that part and use that.   Bronnie Thompson: I heard the story of how it all came about and it, and it's you know, it's an observation that sometimes movement in one direction bigger than another. And that's cool. It's like, you're all saying, let's make this little envelope a little bigger and play with those movements because we're beasts of movement. Bronnie Thompson (00:32:50): We just forget that sometimes we think we've got to do it one way. And you know, I can't tell my plumbers who crawl under houses. Look, you've got to carry things the way, you know, the proper safe handling thing. And I wasn't, I was the same safe handling advisors like me. But you know, there's so many ways that we can do movements and why can't we celebrate that? And the explanation, sometimes we come up with really interesting hypotheses that don't stand the test of time. And I suspect it might be some of the things that have happened with the McKenzie approach. It's same time. What McKenzie did that very few people were doing at the time was saying, you can do something for yourself that as we are the gold ones, that's what changed. David Butler (00:33:40): Bronnie, what's really helped us to start the shift away from poking the sore bit, come on, do it yourself. And, and I always give great credit to Robin McKenzie for that shift in life. Sandy Hilton (00:33:53): Yeah. And an expectation that it's going to get better. Right. David Butler (00:34:00): You think that’s showing something in the clinic that helps. Wow. Let's ride let's rock. Karen Litzy (00:34:07): Yeah. And oftentimes I think patients are surprised. Do you ever notice that Sandy, like, or David, or, you know, when you're working with patients, they're like, Oh, Oh, that does feel better. And they're just sort of taken aback by, Oh, wait a second. That does feel better and it's okay. I can do it. Yeah. And then you give them the permission to do so. And like you said, is it's certainly not one single thing that makes the change. But I think everything that you guys just said are probably the tip of the iceberg of all of the events surrounding that day, that time, that movement, that can make a change in that person. And I think that's really important to remember. That's what I sort of picked up from the three of you.   Bronnie Thompson: But the stories like that kind of convenient ways of, for us to think that we know what we're doing, but actually within what this person by what this person feels and how they experience it. And the context we provide us safety, security. And I'm going to look after you, that's, you know, changes, motivations about how important something is and how confident you are that you can do it. We can provide the rationale important part. The person ultimately drives that. So we can also provide that sense of safety and that I'm here. I'm going to hang around while you do this stuff. Let's play with it. Let's experiment. And if we can take that experiment, sort of notion of playing with different movements in, we've got a lot more opportunity for people in the real world to take that with them. We can't do that. Or forgive people are prescribed. You will do this movement. And this way perfectly I salute, but the old back schools, Oh, I know scary, And they did get people seeing the other people were moving. And that's a good thing that we can take from it. It's always good and not so good about every approach. Karen Litzy (00:35:11): Now I have a question for David and then out to the group, but you know, we've been talking about Sims and dims and safeties and dangers. And so for people who maybe have no idea what we're talking about, when we're talking about Sims and dims, can you give a quick overview of what the Sims and dims, what that is so that people understand that jargon that we're using? David Butler (00:36:40): Okay, it's a model we use. There's lots of other similar models out there. So basically based on neuro tag theory, the notion of a network that there's danger danger in me networks out there, and there's safety in me networks, rather simple, structured thinking here, and we've looked at these this has emerged due to the awareness, the pain science that we have a network in our brain. But me as an old therapist, when the brain mapping world came in and we realized, hang on pain, isn't just a little nest up there. There could be thousands of areas of the brain ignited indeed the whole body ignited in a pain experience. And one of the most liberating bits of information for me and my whole professional career, because what it meant was that many things influence a pain experience and a stress experience, move experience lab experience, and many things can be brought in to actually try and change it. David Butler (00:37:39): And all of a sudden means that everything matters. So this is where dims danger in me, safety sims in me, it was just a way to collect them. So an example of a dim with categorize them could be things you hear, see, smell, taste, and touch. So for one person, it could be the smell of something burning or looking at something or hearing something noise. The things you do could be a dim. It could be just doing nothing, but then there's Sims, gradually exercising, gradual exposure seems in things you hear, see, smell, taste, and touch could be going out. One of my most common exercises I now give somebody is to go down to our local market and find four different smells, four different things to taste, four different things to touch. And then they'll say, why should I do that? Because you can sculpt new safety pathways in your brain, which will flatten out some of them, some of the pathways they're linked to pain and it comes to of the things you say important. David Butler (00:38:37): You know, I can't, I'm stuffed, I'm finished. I got mom's knees. We try and change that language too. I can, I will. I've got new flight plans. I can see the future, the people you meet, the places you're with. So it's a way of categorizing all those things in life into either danger or safety, we try for therapy, we try and remove the dangerous. It is often via education. What does that mean? And we try and help them find safety and health professionals out there are good at finding danger, but we're not used to getting out there and finding those liberating safety things. And of course the DIMS SIMS thing. It's also closely linked in, we believe to immune balance. So the more dims you have, the more inflammatory broad immune system, the more sims you have, you move more towards the analgesics or the safety. And so it's the way to collect them. It's a way to collect as we try and unpack and unpack a patient's story listing to it within to unpack it and then to re-pack it again with them in a different way. Did that make sense? Karen Litzy (00:39:49): Absolutely. Yes. I think that made very good sense. And I believe you, there is a question on it, but I believe you answered it in that explanation. It says, have you had patients that cannot find Sims or it's difficult to identify and if so, how can you teach them what a SIM is? But I think you just answered that question in that explanation. David Butler (00:40:11): Once they get it. They're on their way. And we send people on SIM hunting homework. So for example, the same might be places you go, okay, if you can get out, just walk in the park or walk somewhere, then power up the SIM by feeling the grass, touching the box, spelling something. And we pair it up by letting them know that if you do that, your immune system gets such a healthy blast, that it can also help dampen down some of the pain response. Bronnie Thompson (00:40:39): And with regard to our current situation, sort of around the world COVID-19 and all the subsequent stuff. And also the situations in the U S at the moment, is it any wonder that lots of people are feeling quite sore because we’re eating this barrage of messages to us. And so I would argue that at the moment it might be worthwhile if you're a bit vulnerable to getting fired up with the stuff said, it's a good idea to ration, how much time you're spend looking at the stuff, not to remain ignorant, but to balance it with those other things that feel good, that make you feel treasured and loved and committed. And for me, it's often spending some time in my studio, walking the dog, going outside, doing something in nature. And there is some really good research showing that if you're out in the green world nature, that there is something that our body's really relish, kind of makes sense to me. Sandy Hilton (00:41:42): So taking that concept into what's going on right now, there's been a challenge clinically of the things that helped people balance that out, got taken away from them. Yeah. So it was a complicated it still is. It was a complicated thing where it wasn't your choice to stop going to the swimming pool because it made you happy and it gave you exercise and balance this out. Someone closed the pool and told you, you couldn't go. And so there's all different layers of loss in that and lost expectations and loss of empowerment and all of these things. So we have had to help people rediscover things that they could access that could be those positives. And that's been hard and really working my muscles of how to help people find joy or pleasure or happiness or safety in an unsafe environment to really get that on a micro level when you've lost the things that used to be there. And, it's been like a lot, but you can do it. It just takes concentration. David Butler (00:42:57): An important thing. That's so important. I think a question for therapists health professionals should be a sane question should be, you know, what's your worldview at the moment. And I would ask that, and it's usually not good, but I chat and have a chat. And actually I'd like to take people through some graphs that the world is not as bad as it really is. And if you look at I've been reading a book by Hans Rosling called factfulness. And really over time, our world is getting better. There's less childhood diseases, a whole range of things, getting better, bad, and bad things, getting better. This is a hiccup. This, for example, I had a musician recently and I had a graph I could show her that say that there's now 22,000 playable guitars to a million people in the world. But 12 years ago, there was only 5,000. All right, this is just one little thing. All right, cool. There's a lot of stats that show that our world is improving, you know, children dying, amount of science, a whole range of things. And this hiccup we have that I'm hopeful humanity can get, can get through, but just a little message I pass on is therapy. Bronnie Thompson (00:44:13): Even though we can't do stuff, we can't access places. What can't be taken away as our memory of being there. So it's really easy to take a moment to back a memory that feels good to say, actually, you can't take that one away from me. I might not be physically getting there, but I can remember it, feel those same feelings. And then being mindful.   Sandy Hilton: This is funny because if you look at Bronnie's background, that's one of the memories I've been using. When I lost the lakefront, I was like, okay, I'm just going to sit there and pretend that I'm not at that beach by that pier. So it's, it's fabulous. And even pictures or recordings of things that you've done before is like, okay, now there is still good stuff. I might not have it right here, but they're still good stuff. So that's really funny. As soon as I saw the picture, I'm like, yeah. And gratitude and just, yeah. Bronnie Thompson (00:45:05): The other thing as well, we've always got something that we can be grateful for all that. It might feel trite, you know, I'm living in winter, but I've got a roof over my head. I can have a damn fine cup of coffee and probably a nice craft. I'll at the end of the day, these are things that I can do and can have any way. So we can create the sense of safety insecurity inside ourselves without necessarily having to experience it. David Butler (00:45:38): Right. Just a quick comment. I would share that with patients who can't get out are saying the things you do when you're still can be as important as the things you do when you move. Right? So let's explore. If you can't do things, you can still really work you yourself with the things you do. And you're still calm. The introspection reading, thinking, contemplation memory enhancement, go through the photo album, et cetera. And I'd also like to always say to someone to link that in that is a very, very healthy thing to do to your neuro immune complex. Karen Litzy (00:46:13): And that sort of brings, I think we answered this question. This was from a woman who is living with chronic pain and at high risk with COVID-19. So how do we get past the fear of going out where people are crowding areas to get the exercise we need to maintain our fitness and muscle tone to reduce our pain. She said, even though I'm doing exercises and stretching, I've lost the ability to walk unaided on uneven grounds through weeks of lockdown. And the hydrotherapy pool is closed. She said, she knows, I need to get out and walk more, but shopping centers, which are the best place to find level floors are out. And a lot of places that she used to go are now very crowded because people are, don't have the access to gyms and things like that. Are health professionals able to suggest options when she lives in a hilly area with only a few but all uneven footpaths or sidewalks. And she has a small house. Sandy Hilton (00:47:18): That's the kind of thing that we've been doing since it's like, okay, let's problem solve this out. Because yeah, you have your carefully set way to get through this and then it's disrupted.   Bronnie Thompson: Yeah, boy, I like having lots of options for movement opportunities. So we don't think of my exercise, but we think of how can I have some movement today and bring that sense of, we are alike to be like, if I can imagine I'm walking along the beach while I'm standing and doing something and, you know, doing the dishes or watching TV or something that still can bring some of those same neuro tags it's same illusion, imaginary stuff activating in my brain. And that is a really, really important thing because we can't always the weather can be horrible, especially if you're in Christchurch and you can't go out for a walk. Bronnie Thompson (00:48:27): Yeah. But you know, we can think novelty is really good. So maybe this is a really neat opportunity to try some play. And I've been watching some of the stuff that our two chiropractor friends do with you put, let's put, at least try some obstacle courses and the house so that it's not we're not thinking of it as exercise. And I've got, do three sets of 10, please physios change that. Let's do something that feels like a bit of fun. There's some very cool inside activities that are supposed to be for kids. I haven't grown up yet. I'm still a baby. Sandy Hilton (00:49:16): Yeah. A lot of balance and things like that you inside that would help when you have your paths back outside. Yeah, yeah.   Karen Litzy: Yeah. Great. And then sticking with since we're talking about this time of COVID where some places are still in lockdown, some places are opening up. Bronnie and David are in an area of the world where they have very, very few cases, very, very few cases, Sandy and I are in a part of the world where we have a lot more than one. So what a lot of practitioners have had to do is we've had to move to tele-health. And so one of the questions David Pulter, I believe, as I hope I'm saying his name correctly is do we perceive that our ability to be empathetic and offer effective pain education is somehow diminished by a tele-health consult. So are we missing that? Not being in person.   Sandy Hilton: I have found it equally possible in person or telehealth cause you're still making that connection. We do miss stuff. We can't read the microexpressions in people as easily. So we as therapists have to work harder, but for the person on the other end, think about what the alternative is. Sandy Hilton (00:50:46): And it's been really cool for the people with pelvic pain, that every single time they've gone to a physio it's been painful. And on tele-health it's the first time she has been able to talk to someone about all of her bits and pieces without being afraid that it's going to hurt because there was no way to see somebody inside somebody's home.   Bronnie Thompson: You get to know something more about me. I've met more pets than ever thought. It was wonderful. This is a privilege that occupational therapists have had for a long time. And I'm so pleased that other other clinicians are getting that same opportunity, because we know so much more about a person when we can see the environment that they live with. That's just fantastic, but it's harder. David Butler (00:51:39): I find I've come back into clinical practice. I thought I was going to retire because I wanted to go, but also doing it. I was hopeless at first, but I'm really enjoying it. And I actually believe, I actually believe for the kind of therapies we're doing it's equal or better than face to face. Ideally, I think I'd like to have one face to face or maybe two but then to continue on with the tele health, particularly for people are in rural areas and it's almost no this kind of therapy was coming anyway, but the COVID has hastened it. So I found myself getting anecdotally here a much more emotional, closer, quicker link to patients by the screen. They were in a safe place. They're in their house. That's number one. They're not in a clinic you're there. And you can actually look at that face in the screen, as we're doing now, I'm looking at your faces, maybe one or two feet away, and I'm just keep looking at you. David Butler (00:52:46): And there's this connection, which is there. And there's also these other elements it brings in like, you start at 10 o'clock and you finish at 10:45. So there's open and closure, which isn't really there in some of the, in some of the clinics, the difficulty I'm having with it though is I was never in face-to-face practice a very good note taker. I used to make notes at the end. I was talking too much, but what you have to do here, my suggestion with face to face is you really need to plan and make your notes straight after. What did I tell that one on the screen, last clinical context, to sort of remind you of all the little juicy bits that we've got in the interaction. So it's really, for me, it's coming back to curriculum and mind you, I'm glad I'm not doing dry needling or just manipulating it with the talking therapy, but my suggestion is to have the habit curriculum. David Butler (00:53:44): So I've got my key target concepts. I know that I've addressed them in that particular session in the next session. I know I've gone back and I've done teach them the self reflection as well. Then to come back to see if I can get it all, or if I've translated my knowledge into something functional or some change. So I'm really, I'm really loving it. And I think there's something rather new and special with this, with this interaction. But maybe that's just me as a physio who sort of used to the more physical stuff. Maybe this is something more natural to the psychologist, its perhaps, but I'm with it. Bronnie Thompson (00:54:22): I’ve been doing the group stuff. And I found that has been, I've seen, I like it because they don't have to go and travel someplace. It does mean that we can offer it to people who otherwise can't get here. You know, they can't seek people, especially rural parts of New Zealand, low broadband is not that great in many parts as well. So it gets that it's an opportunity. I'd like to see the availability of it as an option. So we can use like we do with our therapies, we pick and choose the right approach or the right piece at the right time and the right place that doesn't have to be one or the other, like you said, you could see him a couple of times in person and then a couple tele-health and then maybe they come back again and then you do mix and match.   Karen Litzy: We have time for one more question here, maybe two. So David, this was one you might be able to answer it really quickly. As a practitioner, what is the utility of straight leg raise slump and prone knee bend test and the assessment of chronic back pain. Is it still relevant? David Butler (00:55:38): Oh gosh. Oh gosh. I'm going to dodge that question and would say it, it would depend on the client who comes in so I think those neurodynamic tests, which I still do. I think the main principle from them is you're testing movement. You're not testing a damaged tissue and anytime you're doing a physical examination, the deeper thing is the patient is testing you. You're not testing them. So what that patient, what that patient offers back in terms of movement or pain responses or whatever, depends on so many things. I might however, have a client and they are out there who do have maybe a specific stickiness or something or something catchy, whatever that may well, the scar around it might well be polarized by action, where I might spend a little bit more time taking a closer look at it. Now that might be relevant. Someone might have, for example, someone might come out of hospital and have had a needle next to the IV drip, next to their musculocutaneous or radial sensory nerve there where it's really worthwhile. Let's explore all the tissues here and see that that nerve can move or slide or glide. But in the second case, I'd made a clinical decision that we probably have issues out in the tissues, which are with a closer evaluation. That's a really broad answer. Karen Litzy (00:57:11): I think it's a tough question to answer because it, sorry, got a cat behind me. I felt my chair moving and I was like, what's going on? Just a large cat. So last question. So how to manage tele-health when the patients may be kind of embarrassed of their house or context or spaces or family it's very common in low socioeconomic patients. So they may not want to turn on their camera.   Sandy Hilton: Yeah. I've had that shaking well, and I've had people in their car or very clearly like I'm kind of angled cause there's a lot going on in my house and I don't have a green screen. So where it's like, and there's just a wall behind me and it's one of the reasons like I'll talk to him ahead of time of if I'm in the clinic, it's clearly the clinic, but I'll tell them I'm at my house. Sandy Hilton (00:58:12): Cause of COVID. So, you know, no judgment, you're going to see a wall and probably a cat and just kind of be up front in the beginning of this as a thing, I've had people that start with the phone on or turn it off or whatever, you just, you roll with it. But I have those conversations ahead of time, before we even do the call.   Bronnie Thompson: It's about creating a safe space for people. You know, if somebody feels, you know, was not having the video, it won't be that long before. I hope we've got some rapport and it feels better. I'm just, I'm doing a bit of a chuckle because the reason I've got my green screen behind me as my silversmith studio, which has an absolute shambles because it's a creative space. So I'm just disguising it because it's works. David Butler (00:59:07): There is something about delivering a story of some talking in the patient's room and there's cupboard doors open and you're looking in their cupboard at the same time. And you know, looking at that, then I just look at that thing. We’re safe here. Karen Litzy (00:59:26): Well, listen, this has been an hour. Thank you so much. I just want to ask one more question or not even a question, more like a statement from all of you that, what would you like the people who are listening and they're, like I said, there were clinicians, there were non-clinicians on here. And I think from the comments that we're seeing in the chat is very valuable and very helpful. So what do you want to leave people with?   Sandy Hilton: I'm gonna echo how I started. We're learning more every single week. I'd say, day but I'm not reading that often. So even if you've gone or you've treated someone and you couldn't quite figure out a way to help them, don't give up because there's more information and more understanding and more ways to get to this all the time. And I don't think you're stuck if you hurt. David Butler (01:00:26): I'd like to mirror those comments, explore the power of tele health, lift your expectations of outcome for those patients, people who are suffering and in pain, who are listening for those who are getting into pain treatment there's a science revolution and a real power in that revolution behind what you do. So just go for it. Bronnie Thompson (01:00:52): I think don't be hung up on with the pain changes or not, be hung up on does this person connect with me. We create trust. Am I listening? Can I be a witness? Can I be there for you? Because out of that will come this other stuff. There are some people whose pain doesn't get better. It doesn't go away. And that's a reality, but it doesn't mean that you have to be imprisoned or trapped by your pain. That means you develop a different relationship with your pain. And I think that's a lot of what we are doing is creating this chance to have some wiggle room, to begin to live life. That's what I'm looking for. Karen Litzy (01:01:53): Beautiful. Well, you guys thank you so much. And for everyone that is here listening, I just want to say thank you so much for giving up an hour of your time. I know that time is valuable, so I just want to thank you all and to Bronnie and to David and to Sandy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And kind of on the fly. So I just want to thank you so much and to everyone. I guess the thing that I would leave people with is, if you're a clinician or if you are a patient, the best thing that you can do, if you are in pain is reach out to someone who might be able to help you, find a mentor, find a clinician, ask around Google, do whatever you can try and find someone who like Bronnie and David and Sandy I'll echo everything. You said that number one first and foremost, you connect with and that you feel safe with. You want them to be your super SIM, you know, like Sandy's my super SIM. Karen Litzy (01:02:48): So you want them to be your super SIM. And, if you can find that person, that clinician just know that that there can be help, you know, whether you're struggling as the clinician to understand your patients or your the patient struggling to find the clinician, I think help is out there. You just have to make sure that you be proactive and search for it. Cause usually they're not going to come knock on your door. So everybody thank you so much for showing up. Thank you, everyone who is on the call and to everyone who is watching this on the playback I hope you enjoyed it. If you have any questions, you can find us we're on social media and various websites and things like that. So we're not hard to find. Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Eric Miller on the show to discuss how to maximize the value of your physical therapy practice.  Eric Miller has been in the financial planning industry for over 20 years. He is the Co-Owner of Econologics Financial Advisors and the Chief Financial Advisor. He has a degree from Capital University and is a Registered Financial Consultant® and licensed insurance agent. He takes pride in helping practice owners become the financial heroes of their own stories and has taken this passion to over 600 families in the past decade. In this episode, we discuss: -How to maximize the value of your practice -The business systems that add the most value and are most attractive to potential buyers -Financial considerations when planning your exit strategy -Simple strategies to minimize your tax bill every year -And so much more! Resources: Econologics Financial Advisors Website Econologics Financial Advisors Youtube Eric Miller LinkedIn Econologics Financial Advisors Facebook   A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!  Learn more about the Redoc Patient Portal here.                                                                        For more information Eric: Eric Miller has been in the financial planning industry for over 20 years. He is the Co-Owner of Econologics Financial Advisors and the Chief Financial Advisor. He has a degree from Capital University and is a Registered Financial Consultant® and licensed insurance agent. He takes pride in helping practice owners become the financial heroes of their own stories and has taken this passion to over 600 families in the past decade. During this time, he’s had over 15,000 conversations with practice owners regarding money, investing, practice expansion, practice transitions, taxes, asset protection, estate planning, and helping them shape their financial attitude toward abundance. Econologics Financial Advisors is an Inc. 5000 honoree for 2019 as one of the fastest growing companies in the US.   Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy (00:01): Hey, Eric, welcome to the podcast. I am happy to have you on. Eric Miller (00:05): Well, thanks, Karen. I'm really excited to be here. Yeah. Karen Litzy (00:08): Before we get into our talk on, you know, how to maximize the value of our practice, in your bio, I read that you're a registered financial consultant. So can you explain to the listeners what that is and maybe how that differs from a financial advisor, an accountant? What is the differentiation there? Eric Miller (00:31): No problem there. So I think when people hear that I'm a financial advisor, I mean, people kind of have the same impression that all financial advisors are alike, so to speak. And that's not always the case. You know, there's some financial advisors that specialize in working with you know, ministers and teachers and all different kinds of professions. I just happened to work with private practice owners. Now, as far as am I licensed to do what I do in the financial world, there's something called being a fiduciary. And when you're a fiduciary, that basically means that you have to do what's in the best interest of your client, not all financial advisors adhere to that standard. What's called a registered investment advisor and we're held to that standard under the SEC guidelines. And then as a registered financial consultants, it's a designation that I picked up along the way. And it just basically, you know, there's certain criteria that you have to use to be able to get to that designation that's system. Karen Litzy (01:41): Got it. Yeah. So, you know, we were talking before we went on and it's kind of like if you're in the physical therapy world, which I am, and you go on to become, you know, like a clinical specialist in orthopedics or a clinical specialist and in pediatrics, it's like going on for a little bit extra education and certification and what you do is that right? Okay. That's exactly correct. Perfect. Perfect. All right. So now let's get into the meat of this interview. So today we're going to be talking about how to maximize the value of your practice, perhaps plan for an exit of that eventually. And we're going to weave in some critical tax strategies that you might be able to use to save you money. So no one likes to leave money on the table. No one likes to feel like a dope because they didn't know what they were doing. So, let's start with maximizing the value of your practice. So first, what does that even mean? Eric Miller (02:42): That's a great place to start because I think people automatically assume that when I say maximizing your practice value, it's just about money, right? It's just about, Oh, the, you know, what's the enterprise value of my business. And then that leads into, Oh my gosh, he's going to talk about like profit and loss and EBITDA and all these really technical terms. But in my viewpoint maximizing practice value. Isn't just about money. It's about the other parts of owning a business that you get value for like time, right? Like you would want to build a business that gives you a lot of time. You'd want to build a business that gives you great relationships with either your employees or recognition from your community. So when I say, if you're trying to maximize the value of your practice, it's not just about the money. Eric Miller (03:31): It's about all of those other things, because you know, you look at it, most people that own a private practice that is your largest investment. You know, it's like the thing that provides the most cash flow to your household, and it is an investment and anybody that's owned a business for any period of time knows that it's something that you have to care for. And that you have to make sure that you're treating like an investment and putting in the time and the money to make sure that you get the most value out of it. That's our definition for that. Karen Litzy (04:04): Yeah, absolutely. So how can we as practice owners then maximize the value of our practice. If let's say in the event, we want to sell it, we want to exit our practice in whatever way we want that exit to happen. Eric Miller (04:21): There's definitely some key areas like, yeah, you have to kind of assume the viewpoint of a buyer. Like if I'm going to buy your practice, Karen, like what are some of the things that I would like to see in place that would allow me to give you, you know, top dollar for it. And I think number one is your personnel organized? Okay, do you have organized personnel? Do people have job descriptions? Do they know what they're doing? Do they know who to report to? So, you know, I think that that is that's key because obviously if you have people in your organization that are aligned and are all kind of working together, you know, you're going to have a really powerful organization. If you can do that, if you don't, then you're going to have, you know, this scattered business that everyone's kind of doing their own thing and that's not good. Eric Miller (05:13): So that's certainly one thing. And then of course, just having good stable systems that are built in your business so that there's procedures that people have, that they can follow. You know, there should be an organization chart somewhere where people know like who's in charge of what I think that's going to all add value to your business. Certainly if you look at like the facility, what's the facility look like, is it in good shape? You know, do you have, if you lease the building, do you have a good lease on it? You know, is there new carpeting is, I mean, is it a nice place where people feel safe to come to, you know, certainly a buyer's going to think about that. And then I think from an income standpoint, obviously you have to be solvent. Eric Miller (05:57): You certainly don't want to have a lot of, you know, outstanding accounts receivable out there. You want to make sure your books are up to date and current, you don't owe any back taxes on the practice. You have multiple income streams in the business that you like multiple services that you provide because no one wants to be reliant upon one of anything. So I think those are all, some really key areas that if you can get those things in shape and you can get them systematized, you're really going to have something that someone else would want and they would value. And they're going to pay you a much higher amount for that. Karen Litzy (06:33): Yeah, that makes sense. So what I'm hearing is you really want to have an organization that's sort of a well oiled machine where people know why they're coming to work. They know what they're doing once they get there and reasonably happy at their jobs, if not very happy at their job. Eric Miller (06:52): Yeah. And I think that you're exactly right. And I think the key as the person that's in charge of it is that you have to know what your role is in that business. So I think a lot of people that are in private practice, and maybe you can attest to this when you first started out, you're just trying to make things happen and go, right. And, you know, as you go on, you kind of realize, look, I'm not just a practitioner, I'm also an owner and I'm an executive and those are completely different roles. And I think over time, if you can really make sure that you understand that those three roles are separate and that you have to make sure you master them to that degree, or at least hire someone that can do those things, that that's really going to create you a valuable practice, you know? Karen Litzy (07:41): And I mean, when you first start out, like I work with a lot of like first time entrepreneurs, you are the owner, the therapist, the executive, the marketer, the pay, you know, you're everything, right? So, so let's say you have a practice like that, where maybe you are a single owner practice, right. Or maybe you have one person part time person. So you don't have this sort of robust, huge practice. Can you sell that? Eric Miller (08:12): Well, you can, you can sell anything. It's just as a matter of how much you're going to get for it. So, again, looking from the buyer's perspective, he wants to buy something. That's not dependent upon one person. He wants something that's going to be basically, he can assume that there's free cashflow there. That is going to be worthwhile to him as an investment. So if you have like a single doctor practice or you're a single practitioner, I mean, you can certainly sell it. It's just not going to go for a very high, multiple, see, most of the practices that we're talking about, you know, are going to sell for maybe like a one to two times earnings. Whereas if you get a bigger organization that has, you know, seven, eight, nine, 12, 20 PTs on staff, there's executives in the office, it's going to go for a much higher, multiple could go as high as eight to 10 of your earnings. So it is, it is that kind of a game, but that's, you know, that's the journey. Karen Litzy (09:08): Right? And, you know, you had said you want to have a lot of systems in place, in your opinion, what are the most valuable or most important systems to have in place within your business? Looking at it from a value standpoint? Eric Miller (09:23): I think definitely having a good financial system is really key because look at what, you know, a lot of businesses, business owners, don't like to confront the finance part of their business, and that's why they don't have much in reserves. And, you know, they're always kind of struggling for, gosh, I can't make payroll this week. And it's just a constant battle when you don't have good financial systems in place, because they're just, they're not paying attention to their money lines. And unfortunately, when it comes to your practice, that that is the most important thing is keeping that practice solvent, which means that there's more money coming in than what's going out. So that personally, I think that's the most important. Some people would say a marketing system is really key because let's face it. If you don't have more patients coming in and buyers definitely going to want to see that he's going to want to see that you are, you have a system in place where you're constantly getting new patients in the door. Right. And then, you know, I think a good quality control system is, is really, really key. Because if people aren't, you know, getting better and you don't diagnose that quickly of, you know, why aren't people getting better because that's what you do as a physical therapist, your job is to get people pain-free, you know, or reduce their pain. So I think that's a pretty key area too. Karen Litzy (10:42): Nice. Yeah. I just had this conversation about the importance of a financial system. Cause I sort of switched my financial system within my practice around, over the last couple of years and it's made such a huge difference. You know, I started looking at the financial system in percentages sort of going off of Mike McCollough, the book profit first. And so, yeah. So how much stays in the business? How much goes to me as an owner, how much goes to taxes? How much goes to profit, how much goes, and then making sure that when that money comes in, it is automatically divided up into those percentages and it's made a huge difference. Eric Miller (11:22): That's so awesome to hear it, does it because you've instilled control over your money right now. Right. And when you look at like what's a barrier for a lot of practice owners is that they don't feel like they have control over their money. Right. And, when you start putting in good control, it's kind of like when you're adjusting somebody or you're getting someone to feel better, right. You have to kind of put control in on that person. Like, I need you to do this and move here and do that. It's the same thing with your money. You have to kind of allocate it so that you know, your expenses are you channel your money to places where it needs to go to handle whatever expense that would be. Certainly, you know, you're yourself. I think, you know, is the most important person that you need to pay first. Karen Litzy (12:07): Well, that's what profit first says. No, it's true. Like, and once I started doing that, it made everything just lighter. So now like quarterly taxes are coming up September 15th or depending on when this airs that might've just been that September 15th date. And I remember like years ago, I'd be like, Oh my gosh, I don't know how, how do I not have them now? I'm like, Oh, totally fine, my money's where it's supposed to be. I am good. Like, this is exactly where it needs to be. Eric Miller (12:43): That actually is kind of like an underlying goal and purpose that I have is I, you know, people always ask like, what's the product of a financial advisor and people think it's, you know, Hey, you know, you made me 20 or 30% or you know, helped me save in taxes. Not really, you know, I like people to feel relaxed about their financial condition and just what you explained to me right there. You're definitely much more relaxed about your condition now because you have control over it and it doesn't control you. That's really awesome. Karen Litzy (13:13): Yeah. And it's a little stressful at first because it's different and it's a change. So I always tell people if you're starting out now start off this way. And Holy cow you'll be so much easier. Everything is just, I feel so much easier. Yeah, just a sense of ease that I now know, like, yes, I have money set aside for this. It's already paid, like it's basically already paid for. Eric Miller (13:39): That's it that's right. But it also does another thing too. It does make you look at and say, you know what, maybe I'm not making enough money in my business because I can't cover some of these other things. And I think that's the most important thing that people have to realize. And I'll go off on a little tangent here, but there's really two basic rules of, for me, income and expenses. The first one is that just get used to the fact that your business will try to spend every dollar that it makes. And then some, and, and that's not just for a business, that's like a government or any household or organization just, it's just going to try to spend every dollar that it makes. And then some, but at the same time, it will also make the exact amount of money. Eric Miller (14:25): It thinks it needs to make to survive. So when I say that, people are like, what does that mean? I'm like, well, look, you know, if you know that you have expenses coming up, somehow miraculously, the business does make enough to cover it. Doesn't it? It's just like, it's just, that's the way it is. So the trick to it is simply to make sure that your reserves and your profit and your taxes are just part of what the business thinks it needs to make to survive. And if you can get that in as what you said as part of that profit first book, I think that's what he's talking about is that it sets the right income target for what the business really needs to make, because that's the biggest outpoint that I usually see with, with practice owners is that I'll ask them, Hey, what's your income target? They'll say, well, you know, I need to make $30,000 a month to pay my bills. And I'm like, well, no, that's not what you need. You actually need 45. If you want to include your profits and building up reserves and paying your taxes that they're operating on a wrong income target. So I think that's really key is to make sure you're operating on the right number. Karen Litzy (15:30): Right. So don't underestimate it completely because I think oftentimes people will just look at, well, this is my rent. These are my utilities. This is my payroll. If you're paying people and these are, you know, overhead costs that maybe we have to pay, you know, phone bills, things like that. And that's it. And they're like, okay, so that's all I have to make. Eric Miller (15:55): That's right. And that's where their demand for income is. But, and if, but if they put in, Hey, I need another $10,000 a month for myself. I need another 5,000 for taxes. I need another because I want to make sure I have reserves. So if I have to shut down for another month, I can handle that. Right. You start putting all those things in. Now the number changes from Oh, 35, I need to make 50. Oh, right. Okay. Well, that's fine. How many more patients do I need to see a week? Right. To be able to make that number, it just gets them, you know, being a problem solver now, as opposed to like, I can't do anything about it kind of mode. Karen Litzy (16:32): Yeah. And I do that. Like people always ask me, well, how many patients, you know, do you usually see a week? And I said, well, it's not, how many do I usually see it's this is what I need to see to make X amount of money per week. So that I know per month, this is what I'm making. And my costs are a little bit lower because I have a mobile practice. So I'm not paying a lease on a brick and mortar facility, but I still have to pay my own rent for my apartment. And I still got to eat. You know, these are all the things that you have to put in. So it's not just, what does the business need, especially if you're a solo preneur, what do you need to survive? Eric Miller (17:12): Yeah. And I think this is where a lot of people, yeah. A lot, a lot of practice owners and entrepreneurs gets, think that their business is more important than their household. And you know, I'm under the, you know, our philosophy, our viewpoint is that your household is like a parent company. Okay. You think about this, you look at all the big corporations out there and you know, people have opinions of them, but they do understand money pretty well. And they certainly understand that let's take Facebook. For example, Facebook owns, I don't know if you do this, like 83 other companies and they're the parent company to all of those other companies, but everything flows to the parent company. Okay. We're your households, no different, you know, you own, you have a, let's say you own a house, a business, maybe a piece of real estate 401k plan, the bank account. Right. Those are all assets of the household. So you really, you know, once you start treating your household, like the parent company, then you set up the system so that, you know, your household you're meeting the goals and purposes of the household people. I think they don't do that. They don't take care of themselves like they should. Karen Litzy (18:19): Yeah, no, I think that's great advice. Thank you for that. Alright. So we've got those financial marketing quality control systems, obviously three very important systems and we can go on and on and systems. That's a whole other conversation. So we will take those and people can run with them as, as sort of prioritizing their systems. So now we've got, we've got all of our systems in place. We've especially our financial system. So how do we plan? Let's say we're getting towards the end of our treating career, whatever your clinical career, whenever that may come. And it may come at different times for different people. How do we efficiently plan for an exit? What do we do? Eric Miller (19:05): As far as like getting the business ready to exit out. Karen Litzy (19:09): Yeah. Like let's say, let's say you're getting ready to kind of exit out of your business. Now we know that maybe you can try and sell it. Or what if you're just like, this is the business is done. You're just done. What do you do? Eric Miller (19:24): Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the first thing you gotta realize, you gotta look at your own financial readiness. Like, can you afford it? You know? I mean, I think a lot of people, they get into a position where they're tired, they get exhausted, right. Because they've been doing things for themselves or I'm sorry, just for the business. And then they just get burnt out, you know? Well, you know, burnout, you know, what burnout is, it has nothing to do with that. It's just that you don't have a bright enough future in front of you. That's what burnout comes from. Right. And I can see why a lot of practice owners getting that conditions. Like I just keep doing the same thing every day and I can't see a bright future for me, so I might as well just sell the thing. Okay. Eric Miller (20:06): So the first thing that I do is just, I try to rehabilitate, like, do you remember why you decided that you wanted to be a business owner? Do you remember like what the purpose was? And if you can revitalize that, I think you can get that person back on track, but look at the end of the day, if you don't want to do it anymore and you want to sell your business, then you know, certainly, you know, hiring a broker can help. Certainly finding someone or just finding another PT that, you know, in the area that would be willing to take, you know you know, sell, you can sell the business to, for Goodwill or it's not going to be very high price, but certainly you can find someone that would be willing to buy practice for some costs. Right. That may just not be very much. Right. Karen Litzy (20:52): And then what, if you were ready to just wrap it up, you don't want to sell it. Are there things that one needs to think about as they wind it down? Eric Miller (21:02): You mean just like, just close it down? Karen Litzy (21:04): You're closing it down. You're moving on to greener pastures, if you will. So you decided to close it down. Are there any financial considerations that one has to think about in that scenario? Eric Miller (21:16): Well, you know, certainly look at how much money that you make from your business. Even, you know, money that through the cashflow that you make, it's sometimes a lot more significant than what people think. And certainly you can own the business. You can just, I mean, if you're a physical therapist, you can just go work for somebody else if you want to. But you know, I think people just have to realize that, that their business does provide them a pretty good living and they just have to analyze that and say, do I have enough to replace that? Or can I go to work for somebody else and replace that income? You know, it's certainly not a good thing to do. You know, there's seven different ways to exit out of business. And that's one of them just shutting it down. It's probably the most, it's the worst way to do it, but I know that it does happen. Karen Litzy (22:05): Yeah. Yeah. What are the other ways you could just name them? We don't have to go into detail. Eric Miller (22:13): So you can die with your boots on, you can close it down. You can sell to an associate. Okay. You can sell to a competitor. Okay. You can sell to private equity. Okay. You can gift the practice to somebody else. Okay. Or you can have your employees buy it through, what's called a Aesop plan. Those are the seven ways that you can exit out of your practice. Okay. Great. What happens with most practice owners is they either sell to an associate to a private equity group, the size of the practice. Karen Litzy (22:54): Yeah. Yeah. And so now let's talk about taxes. Eric Miller (23:03): Yes. So, Oh, taxes. Hey guys, when you could see your eyes got big. Karen Litzy (23:07): Who likes to pay taxes, right. Nobody likes to do it, but we all do it because we need, we need the services that they provide. Right. So let's talk about some tax strategies that might be able to save us some time. Eric Miller (23:21): Yeah. Yeah. I think the first thing on taxes is that you have to realize that your accountant may or may not understand the tax code completely. And it sounds really weird because everyone assumes that they have an accountant, Hey, he's going to try to minimize my taxes. That's not really what their goal is. Their goal is to make sure that you are compliant, that you file your taxes on time. They're not necessarily doing tax planning for you. They're not trying to minimize your taxes. Okay. So I think that's the first thing is that you really have to make sure you're working with an accountant that has the viewpoint that I want to try to minimize this tax bill as much as I can, because it won't happen by itself. You have to be proactive. You cannot take a passive role in minimizing your taxes, or you're just going to end up paying the most. Eric Miller (24:09): Okay. The tax codes, 3 million words, and, you know, no one's going to know every single passage of it. That being said, there are definitely some strategies out there that you can utilize. One that is that I've been talked about a lot is that you can actually rent your house out for 14 days out of the year and you can collect that money completely tax free. And you're probably thinking like, well, how, how would that benefit me? So where this came about was that in a, I don't know what year it was, but if you've ever heard of the masters golf tournament, there's a lot of, there's a lot of guys that have big houses there and on the golf course and they rent their houses out for thousands and thousands of dollars. Okay, well, legally they can collect all of that money, completely tax free. Eric Miller (25:08): Okay. Because the IRS code says, you can rent your house out 14 days out of the year and get that money complete tax free. And you probably thinking, how do I take advantage of that? Well, if you own a business, your business can rent your house out for 14 days out of the year. And as long as you have a legitimate meeting at your house, maybe you have with a key executive or even with yourself, right. You have an executive meeting at your house and you document that, then you can rent, you can have the business pay for that. Okay. It's a business expense. And then you get that personally. And as long as you do it correctly, you can get that money completely tax free. All right. That would be certainly one strategy you can use. It's called the, it's called the Augusta rule. You can look it up online and, and certainly there's. Yeah, yeah. That's where it came from. That's one and, you know, right there, 14 days, let's say that it's a thousand dollars, that'd be $14,000 that you could expense out in your business. And then you can get that personally. Oh, you have to do it right. You have to have a legitimate meeting. You have to like Karen Litzy (26:14): Say it's $10,000 a night. Eric Miller (26:17): I don't know. In New York, you may be able to write. Karen Litzy (26:20): I don't know. That might be a stretch too. Eric Miller (26:22): If you needed to rent out like a hotel or a restaurant, that's what you would need to do. You need to go get like an estimate like of where you would normally hold that meeting just for documentation purposes, but like anything else it can be done. You just have to follow through and have documentation, you know? And I just have the accountant guide you on how to do that. That's certainly that's one that would be, you know, 14, 15,000. So if people have kids, they can put their kids on payroll and they can, you know, show them that would be another deduction that you can use. You know, there's certainly a lot more, I could probably go on all night. But you know, I think another thing that people can do is just look at how they take their income. Eric Miller (27:06): Like you own a business, right? And most physical therapists are escorts. And you know, a lot of accounts will tell them to take bigger salaries than what they actually need to be taking. Right? So you can actually adjust your salary downs as long as it's a reasonable compensation and then take more an owner draws. That's going to help minimize the Medicare tax as well. So it really just boils down to, you know, finding the right information, finding a right advisor that can help you and, you know, provide tax deductions that your accountant can work with to minimize it. It can happen like you should, it's your responsibility. And I say this a lot. It's like, I've never read anywhere where it's my responsibility to maximum fund the IRS. Right? Like I know I have to pay taxes. I get that. But there's no one that said that I have to like pay, you know an ungodly amount of tax. But that's the way the IRS works. They just assume that your money is their money and you have to be proactive to show them otherwise. Karen Litzy (28:11): Yeah. I know this year when I paid my taxes, when I did my taxes for 2019, I was so excited. Cause I only owed like $309 after doing my estimated quarterly taxes, which I thought, well, this is great because I'm not giving them more throughout the year. And in fact I was almost like, spot on. That's pretty good. Yeah. That was pretty good. Because like, you don't want to, like, I understand when people get refunds, but if you got a refund, that means that you gave them more than was necessary throughout the year. Correct. Right. Yeah. Eric Miller (28:53): So it is something that you have to stay on top of because as your business grows, you know, your tax liability personally is going to be higher. So you really have to make sure you stay in good communication with your accounts. Like you should be talking to them every quarter, especially now recently where I think a lot of people have gotten the PPP loan. And if you, you know, if that gets forgiven well, you know, physical therapists didn't really shut down. I mean, some of them did, but you were still collecting money. So you know, you may have, you really have to make sure that you're not going to have a tax problem for 2020, it could happen. So just, you know, just getting in communication with your accountant. I think that that will help. Karen Litzy (29:32): Yeah. During the PPP loan phase and covert, I was thinking, I was talking to my accountant like literally every other day. Yeah. I'm like, does this make sense? Should I do this? Should we do this? Should I do this? Can I do this? Does this, is this the right form? Do I feel, and I did get a PPP loan because in New York, you know, we were done, like when I say shut down, like shut down, nothing, you know? And eventually I started doing more telehealth visits, but in the beginning it was quite scary. And so I said, you know, I better apply for a loan and, and I did get it. And now they haven't even asked, we haven't even filled out the forgiveness paperwork yet, but now I'm in contact with him like weekly, like, is this the right form? Did I fill this out? Right? Is this the right documentation I need? And he's like, yes, yes, yes. You're all good. So now when the time comes, I'll be able to get that in really quick. Eric Miller (30:27): Yeah. And it won't be a problem and you know, you'll have your attention on other things that'll help expand and that's good. And then that's just, that's not my experience. Most practice owners, they kind of don't confront it, they ignore it. And then it becomes a bigger problem down the line. And that's really needless. Right. Karen Litzy (30:44): I think that's how I used to be, but I have now been rehabilitated financially. So yeah, this was great. Now, what are in your opinion, what are the key messages that you would like the listeners to kind of take away from this conversation? Eric Miller (31:02): Well, I mean, you know, for me look, I mean, you can, regardless of what your financial condition is, like, you can do something about it. Right. And I think that's always been a pretty key, you know, philosophical viewpoint that I have. Like, I don't think that there's such thing as an unwinnable game and I know that even things get a little murky and they get a little dark and you know, sometimes you don't really see, you know, the future as bright as it could be, but if you just kind of like, just do one thing right. And complete that cycle of action and then go onto the next, then I think that starts to create more freedom for yourself. Like people get overwhelmed so fast. Right. And there's like, there's so many different things to do, especially financially. Right. That they just, they don't just do what's in front of them while they're doing it. Like just complete one thing at a time. And then you can go on to the next one. Right. Like do the next thing and then go on to the next one. And then to me, that's the key to success, right? There is, is getting interested in something that you don't want to do. Right. And completing it. And I think once you do that, you'll start to see a much brighter future, better things happening to you. Karen Litzy (32:14): Yeah. Great, great advice. Thank you so much. And before we get going, I'm going to ask you the same question that I ask everyone. And that's knowing where you are now in your life and in your career. What advice would you give to your younger self? Eric Miller (32:29): I would simply tell myself that there are destructive and constructive actions that you can do in life, right. And that those destructive actions, while they may appear fun at the time will certainly prevent you from getting to your potential and leading the life that you want to lead. Right. I know we're all young. We all kind of make stupid mistakes and that's just part of the learning curve. But I would certainly tell myself, you know, your personal ethics is really part of your survival, right? And to the degree that you kind of keep yourself in good shape morally, and you do the right thing better things are gonna happen to you in your life. It's going to create more abundance for you. And I would tell myself that is just make sure you pay attention and do the right thing more often than you do the wrong thing. Karen Litzy (33:22): Excellent. And now, where can people find you on social media website? Eric Miller (33:27): Yeah. So if you want to go for a wealthforpts.com wealthforpts.com, you can download a free ebook that we have. You can certainly go to our website www.econologicsfinancialadvisors.com And then we have a YouTube channel, www.econologicsfinancialadvisors.com. And those would be three places that you can go to connect with us. Karen Litzy (33:48): Perfect. And all of that will be at the show notes at podcast.healthywealthysmart.com under this episode. So one click will take you to everything. So Eric, thank you so much. This was great. I was taking copious notes and you know, every time I have these conversations, I'm always thinking to myself, Hey, what do I need to do? What do I need to act on? And you know, a lot of the conversations that I've had with folks like yourself, accountants, even on this program and in my own personal life have just really been so valuable. So I thank you so much for taking the time out today. Thank you and everyone, thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.     Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts!

SEO best practices are constantly changing as search engines fine tune the way they determine how to rank content. Here's what's working right now. This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, iPullRank founder Mike King shares the SEO strategies that he's using now to get results for his clients. From content and keyword strategies, to natural language generation, internal link generation and technical content optimization, Mike goes into detail with tips about how you can spot SEO issues that might be hurting your rankings, and what you can do to fix existing problems and proactively position your site to rank well. If you love getting into the technical weeds (like I do), this episode is for you! Resources from this episode: Visit the iPullRank website Check out Mike's movie Runtime Follow Mike on Twitter Read Mike's Medium article "This, too, shall pass" Transcript Kathleen (00:00): Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And this week I am excited to welcome my guest Mike King, who is the managing director of iPullRank. Welcome Mike Mike (00:32): Kathleen. Thanks for having me. Kathleen (00:34): So excited for you to be here because I heard you speak back in, I think we decided it was 2016. I was attending Wistia Fest, which is not a thing anymore. It was an awesome annual conference that Wistia ran for a few years there. And I went to it and I, I saw you, you speak on the main stage about SEO. And I remember at the time thinking this guy is amazing. His talk is really good. It's packed with incredible substance, which you can't always say for main stage talks. And, and like, wow, I was just so impressed. And it was funny because recently when I was asking people in my network who I should interview for this podcast, your name came up and I kind of connected the dots. And I was like, that's that guy? So I'm so excited that like this has come full circle and now I get to meet you and, and pick your brain. Mike (01:40): Thanks for having me. And yeah, that was a great show. I really enjoyed Wista Fest. I really appreciate them as a company too. Like just their ethos. It kind of reminds me of early Moz. So yeah, I really love those guys. Kathleen (01:54): And they did a very Seinfeld-esque thing where they had a great conference that was growing and they were like, we're not going to do it anymore because we've realized it's not the right thing for us, but they definitely left while they were on top. So that was cool. So before we jump into all things SEO, can you maybe give my audience a little history on yourself and how you came to be doing what you're doing now? And also what iPullRank does. And I should note, as I say that, that this is basically the sixth anniversary of the company, so happy anniversary, that's a huge accomplishment. Mike (02:32): Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, it feels crazy to be here six years and, you know, just because of like the, the weight of everything that's happening in the world. So yeah, I'm very appreciative that we are still around. So yeah, me, my background, I did music for a living for a number of years, but, you know, before that, I grew up a very nerdy kid who learned to code from 12 and all this, and actually got into a bike accident. And and I didn't have health insurance cause you know, I was a rapper and this before Obamacare and I had to get a job to pay my medical bills. So first place to hire me was an SEO agency because of my, my technical skills. And then I ended up working at some bigger agencies and then some search focus firms. Mike (03:25): And then after that, I was just like, I'm pretty sure I can do this myself. And so six years ago I started the agency just put a, put like $5,000 in a bank account and never really looked back. And so what we do is, is digital marketing of course, with a primary focus on SEO and content strategy. And, you know, we work with a lot of clients and we really build that rapport and that trust. And then they allow us to do other things as well. So we've got some expertise in things like analytics and machine learning and so on. And there's just a lot of overlap between those that allows us to be very effective and the things that we do for our clients. Kathleen (04:03): I think it's interesting that you say, you know, your background, you were kind of nerdy and you learned to code because I feel like what marketing has evolved into these days, that is a super power, like people who know, who understand code and who, who are more data driven and, and kind of think like a programmer there's so much you can do with that knowledge, as opposed to the way marketing was taught way back when I studied marketing, which was like a much more about like strategy and creative. And it's just, it's a different discipline today. Mike (04:39): Yeah. And I think that we kind of exist at the confluence of like marketing technology, creative and like media, right? Like, so there's when I worked at some bigger ad agencies, everything was pretty rigid in kind of like what you just described. It's like, okay, you do that. We have a strategy, we do the creative, we run the media and that's it. But because with SEO specifically, you have to like fix the website, you end up like touching a lot of other different areas. And so that's why we ended up getting into machine learning and things like that because all of that supports what we're trying to do. And I kind of look at it as though, you know, the web is a program. You know, the search engine is a program. Your website is a program, that's an input for the search engines program. Mike (05:31): And so if you think of it as just like an ecosystem of program, you can make your website do anything and then you can make it ultimately, you know, work for these other programs. So if you think about something like personalization that is literally turning your marketing mix into a program that reacts to people's you know, their, their features and their behaviors. So yeah, I agree with you. It's definitely a superpower because if you think of, of everything in your marketing in that way, you understand that you just have so much control over what can be done. Kathleen (06:08): Yeah. It's amazing. And, and I know, you know, you have pretty deep SEO knowledge and experience. In fact, you were recently you were, you're going to be speaking at Moz con live, which of course, due to the crazy situation that we're in as a world, you presented at Moz con virtual you did something really different and creative that I want to maybe start with here. So can you talk a little bit about that? Cause it's so cool. Mike (06:38): Yeah. We made a movie. And the way I describe it as it's like Batman, the animated series meets the TV show, mr. Robot. And so they told me like the theme of Moz Con this year was going to be something like circus or carnival related. And I was like, all right, why don't we use a character that's like, kind of like the joker and make it like the three ring circus of technical SEO. And so you've got this protagonist who she's like this hacker type who is when you first meet her. She's just like doing all this SEO stuff, like super fast. So of course you got to present it in like a Hollywood way. Cause otherwise people would get bored. And then she runs into a problem. She meets me. I'm kinda like her coach. And so during the process of me coaching her to beat these different challenges, I'm also teaching the viewer different technical SEO tactics. Mike (07:32): So going into this, you know, like you said, I was excited to speak at Moz con live cause to me it's like the super bowl of SEO conferences. And when they said that they were going to go virtual at first, I was a bit disappointed because I really enjoy the, you know, speaking in front of 2000 people with my newest, coolest tactics and all of that. But then I realized like, no, this is an opportunity because not only is this virtual, but they want to do a prerecorded. And I'm like, alright, let's maximize this media, let's do a movie. And so my, the, the creative folks on my team were super excited about it. And we came up with a few different concepts of how we could do it. And then we just made it happen. You know, we, the, the music in the film is mostly in house. Mike (08:21): Like the person that is the voice actor for both the clown character and the woman, that's a protagonist also sings. The first song that you hear when the wind starts. Yes. Her name is Neferkara, she's our office manager. And she's so talented. And it was really cool to be able to like extract the talents of different people across the team. So like I wrote the script, I'm also a voice actor in it, our senior visual designer, she did the design concepts and then we've got designer who's also an animator who contributed. And then, because the timeline was so compressed, we also brought in a couple of freelancers to help us out. And it was just like, you know, one of those round the clock projects until we turned it in, like we literally turned it in. Like they said, we need it by 3:00 AM. At this point I had sent on the email at two 59 and 48 seconds. But yeah, we made it happen. It was a really fun project. Kathleen (09:23): So I just want to pause for a second. And for anybody who's listening, he made a movie. Like this wasn't just, let's film a video. This is like, you made a movie, you wrote a script, you brought in talent, it had a story. It was animated, which I think is, makes it even harder and more work. That just blew me away when I heard that. And when I saw it, I was blown away too, because it's really good. No, it's really good. And so where I, I'm sure the thing that everybody's thinking as I listened to this is wait, now I need to go online and see this movie. So where is this movie? Where does it live? Mike (10:05): Yeah. You can watch it on our website. You just go to i pull rank dot com slash runtime. Runtime is the name of the film. And it's right there and we watch it. Kathleen (10:16): So cool. So a lot of what that movie was about is what is working right now in SEO. And that's really what I wanted to talk to you about because, you know, SEO is one of those things that like, you can't learn it and be done, right. It's just constantly changing to the point where this week, you know, all I look online and, and I'm seeing like, Oh, there's a core algorithm update with Google. And then, and then two days later, it's no, they just made a mistake. And you know, there's all this craziness happening in the world of SEO, which is why it's so appropriate. So people who are listening to this can't see. But if you check out the show notes, you'll see it. Mike has this awesome zoom background, which is like, it looks like the house is on fire and the Simpsons is my best guess? Mike (11:01): It's from that meme with the dog where everything is on fire. And he's like, this is fine. Kathleen (11:05): Yeah. Everything's fine. It's fine. Literally the world is on fire. I feel like that's SEO half the time. Mike (11:12): Pretty much. Yeah. Kathleen (11:15): So, so yeah, I would love it. If you could just sort of like talk about with what you're seeing. I mean, most of the people listen to this podcast are pretty experienced and they understand content marketing and they get keyword optimization, but there's a whole nother level out there that I think unless you're a specialist, you, you just, you can't keep up with Mike (11:35): Yeah, that's the thing. So, I mean, SEO does change every day. There's algorithm updates regularly lately. And the thing is, people are very reactive to those algorithm updates. That's not the way you should approach it. Like if they roll out a new algorithm update, you got to wait a couple of weeks and see how that settles. Google is a software company, just like any other software company. And so when they roll things out, they may say, okay, we're going to roll out these five things at once. And they may say like, okay, four of those things didn't work. Let's pull those back. And only one of them stays there. So if you're jerking the wheel back and forth in reaction to them, you may end up being caught up in one of those things that wasn't actually a problem for your site. Mike (12:18): So I always tell my clients like, Hey, if you hear about an algorithm update, wait two weeks and then see where you fall from there. And the reality is that, you know, most of the things that you would want to do in reaction to one of those updates anyway, were things that we probably already told you you should do. Right? So it's not, it's not, it's very rare that it's a dramatic change to whatever you thought about doing or whatever your, no, you should have been doing it. And so it's all about prioritization from there, but to your point of it being another level, like most people that are doing content marketing don't necessarily know like how search engines think about content, right? So you may think like, okay, these are my target keywords. I got to talk about these keywords when I'm writing about a thing, that's the top level of it. Mike (13:12): So the way you got to think about it is that your keywords have keywords. And what I mean by that is that there's a context that's built based on what currently ranks for any given keyword. So as an example, if you rank for the, or you want to rank for the keyword basketball, and right now, the things that ranked for basketball also feature, you know, NBA bubble and LeBron James, and, you know, championship. Like if those words are featured on pages that rank, you also have to use those, those words on your page when you're trying to rank for basketball. And that's a simplified version of it. Like there are, you know, you gotta think about as far as like the topics being covered, the current, the people, places and things that are being covered. And we call this whole process of understanding that and using it technical content optimization, and it uses a lot of natural language processing to understand these concepts and so on. Mike (14:10): But the ultimate output from that is a very data-driven brief that we use to inform the content that we create. And these concepts are super powerful. You know, like again, most people are just being like, Hey, I want to rank for basketball. So I'm going to talk about basketball and use that word 49 times, but we will beat you because we're thinking about it the same way the search engine itself is, and we're looking at those topics and incorporating them so strategically, I would say that any content marketer that is, you know, optimizing for SEO, they should look into these concepts, more, plenty of tools out there for it. Search metrics, have a tool called content experience. SEMrush has a tool for optimization like this. There's a tool called phrase. So there's plenty of tools out there that do this level of analysis. Mike (15:02): And there's also a tool called content success by a company called Ryte. And what they do is like, as you're writing something, they'll say, here's my target keywords. It'll say, okay, well, use these words more, talk about these subjects more so you can be more optimized with respect to what search engines expect. So that's, that's one of the bigger ones that I would say that people that, you know, have knowledge about SEO don't know about this, and when they discover it, they see just like these small changes of how their writing would dramatically improve their rankings and so on. Kathleen (15:38): Yeah. It's interesting. Have you also heard, I keep hearing a lot of buzz about a newer tool called market muse. Have you heard about that? Mike (15:45): Yeah, they, yeah. Market Muse. They do a very similar thing. So they they've actually got a lot of different features and functionality to support this type of work. And they're also going into leveraging natural language generation pretty heavily as well. They do something that I can't remember the name of the product, but basically they'll give you a first draft of a piece of content based on what you're trying to target. And that type of technology has dramatically improved in the last couple of years, you know, or even the last few months. And that when people used to try to like generate content, they usually do, what's called content spinning. And that's where you kind of like take an existing article and just like change the words around like use synonyms and things like that. That's always been bad content. Now you have something called GPT two and also GPT three, which was put out by Elon Musk's company, open AI. And it's like really good at writing content. Like as long as you configure it, right. A human cannot tell the difference between a piece of content written by a human and written by this. Kathleen (16:59): It's funny that you say that because I just talked to somebody who rewrote 60% of his website using GPT three, cause he got access to the early beta and he was like, it's performing so much better. It did a better job of saying what we do than I could have done. And, and all these people in the Slack group I'm in, went to look at it and we were all like, that's amazing. It's crazy. It's like a little freaky though, because I don't know, like what does that mean for, for the future of us as marketers? Right. Mike (17:29): I think it means good things. You know, I think it frees us up to write content that's valuable and creative rather than like, imagine your eCommerce site. Right. And you're like, okay, to optimize these pages, I gotta write 200 words on every category page. No one wants to do, wants to do that. No one wants to write the copy that goes on product detail pages. They just want to be able to like take that data and turn it into something. Well, now you can't. And so it frees up actual copywriters and creative content marketers, and so on to think about how do we make interactive content? How do we write things that are like emotional and so on? Like, you know, I don't think we're going to get to a point in the near term that something like GPT three is going to be able to write conversion copy right now. I think he can give us some insights, but I don't think it's going to be able to very much be able to say like, okay, this certain type of person I want to write for them. Kathleen (18:30): Well, I think your key, you said the three key words, which was in the near term, I think eventually it'll figure it out, Mike (18:37): Right? Like we get to enough computing power and, and people are writing the right algorithms. Yes. You can retrain anything. But right now... Kathleen (18:45): Hopefully by that point you and I will be sitting on a beach somewhere and having a pina colada retired. Mike (18:54): But the other thing is that I think that we're going to get to a point where you can say, I want to rank for this keyword. And those types of tools would just ingest what ranks there and then use all those features that I'm talking about that we use as humans and it's going to write the perfectly optimized content for you. So then what is going to, what's gonna make, what's going to be differentiator between you and me and how we create the content. I think it's going to be those creative aspects that are going to be even more valuable. So GPT three does not replace your editorial team because you're still gonna need editors to edit whatever it spits out. And then you're going to need creative people that can create things that don't exist because GBT three learns from what does exist. Kathleen (19:41): Yeah. It's pretty crazy. But it also goes back to that point I was making earlier where, you know, programming and knowledge of code is a super power because you can't just like get access to GPT three and just like, it will know how to write your website. Like you had there's there's you have to understand how to leverage those tools. And there's a certain degree of technical sophistication required for that. At least at this stage, I'm sure at some point someone will build a software interface that will make it easy for anybody to do it, but that doesn't exist yet. Yeah. So that's pretty cool. So, all right. So we have number one, understanding the context around your SEO and that your keywords have keywords. I love that. What else do you got for us? Mike (20:23): Let's see. So I'm a strong believer that for, you know, the last like five or six years, SEO has become more content marketing. And a lot of people that do SEO don't know much about the technical side of it. And I don't think there's necessarily a problem with those people. I just think that the technical stuff needs to be brought back to the forefront because a lot of things have changed about the web in the last couple years. You know, JavaScript is more prominent in the way that search engines can understand that stuff and so on has changed. And so there's been a lot of new tactics that have popped up as a result of that. So one of which is AB testing specifically for SEO. So if you've got a big site and you're like, Hey, we're considering making this change before. Mike (21:20): It's like, well, we make the change and see what happens. Now you can do that as kind of like a step approach by taking a you know, representative sample of URLs, making that change there and validating or invalidating that hypothesis that this will work. And then once you see that it works, you can roll it out at scale. So I think that that's something that every SEO needs to know how to do, because that's a good way to avoid losing money. But you know, again, that goes back to the technical aspects because that is a very technical thing to do. Like you got to know more about CDNs and how sites are set up, or you got to know about Google tag manager and things like that. So my point here is that, you know, we're, we're still going through what I've, I've called for a number of years. Mike (22:07): Now, this technical SEO Renaissance where people that sit at the intersection of like code and, you know, creative marketing sophistication, and, you know, I guess SEO are able to really capitalize on things that others can. And I very much encourage, you know, SEO or content marketers to learn more about these things. So at least they can be aware and discuss with more technical people. Like how can we deploy this in such a way that what I'm doing as a content marketer works even better. So, you know, it used to be that you could just like build a site and put a bunch of great content on it. And the links that you would attract as a result of those, those that content would yield better rankings for you. But because Google has gotten more sophisticated and they have better understanding of the pages that are very rich in that type of content, you've got to understand things like server side rendering and dynamic rendering and, and Google's capabilities like where they end. So you can make sure that that content always has the best chance of ranking. Kathleen (23:22): How much do you think the average marketer needs to learn about technical SEO? Because like, I've always, you know, I've always kind of looked at the landscape of the marketing industry and there are some people who like all they do 24 seven, like their one job is they are a technical SEO expert and they do it really, really well. But I do think, I mean, it seems to me there is some baseline level of technical, technical SEO understanding that every marketer should have. I'm curious where you fall on that. Mike (23:53): Yeah. And I don't think that everyone needs to know how to do like 301 redirects and fix AC access files and so on and so forth. I think they just need to be exposed to those ideas. So if you're someone who read Moz's, you know, beginner's guide to SEO, I think that is a good base layer foundation of understanding technical SEO, because you're exposed to all those problems that you might have. And you can say like, Hey, I don't think the page that we just published is in our site map, that's important. Or I looked at, I looked at this plugin and it showed me that, you know, what is showing up for Google is not what I see in my browser. Like understanding those base level concepts is enough because you can find an awesome technical SEO, like you described, or even just an engineer themselves and be like, Hey, I'm at, I see these problems. I'm not the expert here, but can we look into this so that we can make sure that the content I'm creating is visible to Google? Kathleen (25:01): Yeah. That's kind of what I was going to say is it's like, you need to know enough to be able to recognize that you have a problem so that, you know, when to make that call, right. Like whether it's, I have a feeling, my images are too large. And so my page is loading too slowly or, you know, it might be, I need you know, more structured data on my website. I don't know how to do that, but I know what it is and that it needs to be done. Like there's sort of that level that I think is important for marketers to have. Mike (25:30): Yeah, absolutely. Cause you know, I mean, I personally come from a time back in my day where, you know, doing websites was you had one title and that was webmaster everything from master of all the web. Yeah. You were like a network administrator, you are front end and back end developer, you did Photoshop. Like you did everything. Right. So for me, like I want to know everything because I'm just used to that. But the modern web doesn't work that way. And so people have their, like their separation of concerns and that's fine. But I do believe that having like a general understanding of what someone like that technical SEO or engineer does just makes the end product even better. So I would recommend people just learn that foundational. Kathleen (26:23): Yeah. That's good advice. All right. So other things that you're seeing really kind of move the needle these days from an SEO standpoint. Mike (26:35): Yeah. so I mean, I'm, I'm starting to get super tactical. One of the things that we run with every single website that we pick up, especially because we work with mostly enterprise brands is they always have a bunch of external links pointing to pages that no longer exist. So the worst I've ever seen was, you know, one of the bigger sports organizations had 12 million links pointing to pages that 302 redirected. Now a Googler will tell you, there's no difference from how they handle 302s and 301s. I can definitively tell you that that is not true based on my experience. And this was a case where it was like one of the few things that we were able to push through in the organization was converting those 12 million, 302s and the 301s and their traffic shot up dramatically from organic search. So ever since then, I've, I've made sure that we always look for that. And every time you always find it, that's a problem. And one of the things that we do to make sure that that's not a problem moving forward is is with Ahrefs, which is one of the link index tools. They have a API end point for telling you what pages have broken links. So what you can do is set up a script. And again, this is something that you would work with your engineering team on. Kathleen (28:02): It all comes back to that coding. Mike (28:04): And I have a script that pings that API and says, all right, here's your list of broken links now automatically set up your 301 redirects from now. So then you don't have to worry about that as a problem. One issue though, is that Google and I believe this would be true. I don't have any definitive evidence of this, but it's something that I've like my hypothesis based on things that I've read in patents. They store copies of your site forever. So if you make a change to a page, they're able to look at what the previous version of that page is just like the way back machine. Yeah. And so if you implement a 301 redirect from one page to another, and those pages don't match up, like the content that used to be there, it doesn't match up with the content that is there. Mike (28:51): Now, they won't apply all the value of the link that you're redirecting. So the way that we've gotten around that, and again goes back to code. Google has something that they call the natural language processing API, which will allow you to determine the topics of pages. So what you would want to do is look for an old version of whatever page was there. Again, the way back machine is a good place for that and run it through that NLP API. And then they'll tell you all the topics and were called entities that were on that page. And then you run your other pages through that and find whatever page has the closest match topic. And then that's where you redirect it to. And then you're more likely to get more value out of that. Kathleen (29:39): That's cool. I did not know that. See, this is why I wanted to talk to you. I knew I was going to learn some new things. And by the way you were like, now we're getting tactical, I love this part of the conversation. So let's go into the tactical weeds. Do you guys have anything else like that? Mike (29:55): Absolutely. So another one that again, another commonplace thing that we see when we bring on clients, well, the first thing that we do is our SEO quick hits. So what are the things that are, you know, high value that we can do very quickly to show that, right? And another thing that we find, and this is especially important for big sites, but it's important for all types of sites. And there are links internally to pages that redirect. So 301 redirect is, you know, they're your last resort basically like when you have links pointing from an external site, it is difficult to reach out to a hundred or a thousand sites and say, Hey, can you update? So the 301 is the best thing you can do in that case, but within your own site, you have complete control. So you shouldn't be linking 301s because for every 301, there's a small loss of link equity. So again, whenever we get a site, we'll crawl a site and see what that internal linking structure looks like. And if there's a bunch of links to 301s, we fix those by just linking directly to the final destination URL. And then while I can see improvements from there, and the same is true of links to 404s. So those two things, and, and also with the external links, if you fix those three things, you will always see an improvement in organic search. Kathleen (31:17): That's awesome. And I feel like that's just like good website housekeeping. And it's funny you mentioned that because I was just doing that. We migrated the site at the company I work for, we migrated it from WordPress to HubSpot. And when we did that, it meant that everything basically was on one domain instead of sub domains. And, and it was like, it was a painful few days, but so necessary. I, I spent like three days going through old blogs, like fixing what were section headings and turning them into H2s changing the link so that they went to, they were like internal links and not external links that went to 301s, like the whole process was such a slog, but when it was done, I it's the same feeling I have like when I clean out the junk drawer in my kitchen. I'm like, Oh, I feel so good. Now it's all clean and perfect. Mike (32:06): Yeah. It's tedious, but it's work done. Kathleen (32:08): Yeah, it is. It is awesome. Well, I mean, I literally feel like I could sit here all day and talk to you about SEO and you're this endless fountain of, of incredibly useful knowledge, but we only have so much time. So shifting gears for a minute, I always ask people at the end of my interviews, two questions, the first of which is the podcast is all about inbound marketing and people who are doing it really well. Is there a particular company or individual that you can point to that you think is really setting the standard, what it means to be a great inbound marketer these days? Mike (32:43): Hmm. I mean, I feel like it's a cop out to mention Rand, but Rand is really good at it. Kathleen (32:49): You know what, you know what, I just want to say this came up once before. He's almost never mentioned, which blows my mind because he is the person that I would probably mention. So talk, discuss Rand. Mike (33:03): Rand is, he's like a inbound marketing machine, you know, like if you think back to the things that he was doing with Moz, where it was like he was blogging every night and he created the Fridays, Whiteboard Fridays, which he does, or he was doing every Friday. He had the beginner's guide to SEO, which he did the first iteration of, and then Brittany Mueller has taken over. So yeah, I think if, if you want to point to someone who is doing it and isn't a huge brand, like he's obviously, you know, a big influence in the space, you can watch him do it again right now with his new startup, which is Spark Toro. And so you see him blogging pretty regularly. He's putting out videos on like how to use the product. He is identifying new social channels that work for him. Mike (33:54): Cause you know, Twitter engagement is down pretty dramatically. Linkedin engagement is up and I'm starting to see him pop up there more. He's doing a ton of different, you know, podcasts and webinars and things. So I think Rand is a really good example of how to do it right. And how to really laser focus in on your audience and then like continually know what they need and put it in front of them. So then show like, Hey, I've also got this product. That's very valuable. And then the other thing is that, you know, he's always had like a very empathetic approach to everything that he's done. And what was really striking to me was that they have an email through Spark Toro that goes out right before they're going to charge you like a week or so. And it's like, Hey, you know, this is of course a subscription product, but we don't want to just like lock you into a subscription and make you forget like, Hey, your, your bill is coming up. If you want to cancel. That's okay. You're welcome to come back. So it's like proactively being like, Hey, we're going to bill you just like, no. And I really think that speaks to his approach and why it's a better approach than a lot of other things that you see out there. It's really good in that market. Kathleen (35:13): I could not agree more. And I, a couple things I would add to that. One is that, so it's Rand Fishkin, who was the founder of Moz, who now, as you've mentioned, founded this new company Spark Toro, which has an incredible product. That's a whole nother conversation, but the couple of things I've noticed about him, one, what he did that was so brilliant in Spark Toro is he started producing content before he had a product. Like I was following him before he ever launched that product. And he was building that audience. So that by the time the product was ready, you have this like ready-made group of people who were, who were waiting to just say yes to him, which is so smart. The other thing is that the content he creates is phenomenal. It's very, very high quality. So, you know, some people might hear, Oh, he blogs every day or however often he blogs and think, eh, you know, sure you could do that, but it's checking the box. Kathleen (36:04): He does not check the box. It's very, very good content. And he does a lot of research. Like that's why people follow him so much. And then the other thing that I just love about him, and I think this, you reminded me of this when you talked about the email about billing, is he's so transparent even about the negatives, like what people might perceive to be negatives. So he has this book he wrote called Lost and Founder, which is very transparent accounting of how he wound up leaving Moz and all the lessons he learned. All the mistakes that he says he made and what he would do differently. And it's just like, if you've ever owned a business, which you do, and I have, reading that book, it's so relatable and so refreshing to hear an entrepreneur talk about the things they didn't do right. Cause sometimes you feel like people only talk about their successes and that is so not a true picture of entrepreneurship. Mike (36:55): Yeah. I got an advanced copy of the book you know, at a, at a very challenging point in running my business and it was, and you know, I was like walking out the door to go on vacation. Like I can't see it anymore. And I took a copy of the book and it was so refreshing to read it and feel like, okay, there's someone else out there that understands this? Could you, you've got books. Like The Hard Thing About Hard Things by then, but that book is kind of BS. Cause it's like, Oh, everything got hard. And then I went and raised $60 million. Kathleen (37:27): Thank you for saying that. Cause I thought the same thing I'm like, yeah. Huh. Mike (37:31): Like that's not how this works in real life. So yeah, that book is definitely refreshing in that regard. Kathleen (37:37): Yeah. I totally agree with you. Well, and to add to that, you yourself have just published what I think is an absolutely beautiful article on medium about your experience as an entrepreneur and all the lessons that you had learned. It's like you basically wrote a letter to yourself sort of from the future about the things that you should be doing differently. And I just thought it was so spot on to, I mean, I just, I just know I related to it as somebody who has owned a business and specifically an agency and like been in those shoes. So I will put the link to that in the show notes because it's definitely something everybody should read. It's really great. All right, second question that I hear all the time from marketers is how do you keep up? Because marketing and specifically SEO, as we talked about changes so quickly, how do you personally make sure that you stay educated and kind of on the cutting edge of everything that's happening? Mike (38:31): Yes. Two things. One, following people that are not our industry. So I follow a lot of developers and things. And I just read voraciously, you know, I read all types of stuff and it's, it's very important to me to like have ideas that are not about my day to day. So then I can figure out ways to assimilate them to my day to day. And also it just like keeps me more broadly creative than if I'm just focused in on one thing. So yeah, it's just that, that curiosity and that thirst for knowledge and the way that I action that is my following more people and just keeping stuff coming at me. Kathleen (39:11): Awesome. I love it. Any one or two people you want to mention who you think are worth following? Mike (39:18): I'm putting you on the spot. Yeah, I can't really think of anybody. I would just say, you know, look at me on Twitter and look at who I follow. Kathleen (39:26): That's a good idea. There you go. Mike (39:27): The people, the people that you know are that will pop up first will be the people I've followed most recently. So yeah. Check those out. Kathleen (39:35): That's a good tip. All right. Well, Mike, I'm sure there are people listening who are like, I want to ask this guy a question. I definitely want to see his movie. I want to learn more about this company. What's the best way for them to connect with you online? Mike (39:49): Yeah. Just go to i pull rank dot com or just reach out to me on Twitter, which is just @ipullrank. Kathleen (39:54): Awesome. All right. Again, all of those links will be in the show notes. So head there to check those out. And in the meantime, if you enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you would head to Apple podcasts or the platform of your choice and leave the podcast, preferably a five star review. So that, that would help us get found by other listeners. And of course, if you know somebody else who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me at @workmommywork because I would love to make them my next guest. That is it for this week. Thank you so much, Mike. This was a ton of fun. Mike (40:28): Thanks for having me.

In this episode of the BTP podcast, Emaad joins Pouya in a free form conversation around topics such as Physics, world currencies, crypto currencies and a decentralized banking system and an idea of world UBI.   Emaad is an Astrophysicist with a passion for technology   Emaad's Social:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/parachaexplores/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/parachuchutrain LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emaadparacha/   Pouya's Social: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pouyalj/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/pouyalj LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pouyalajevardi/   Episode Transcript:----more----   SUMMARY KEYWORDS currency, layover, canada, people, country, places, digital currencies, saskatchewan, money, picture, ubi, talking, notes, winnipeg, toronto, cryptocurrency, world, research, cryptocurrencies, thought SPEAKERS Pouya LJ, Emaad   Pouya LJ  00:17 Hey, man, how's it going? Good,   Emaad  00:19 man, how are you?   Pouya LJ  00:20 Pretty good, pretty good. We're actually talking off off camera and not camera, but I'm recording about some stuff that is going on with you and your life. And I thought, you know what, it's actually quite interesting. Let's bring it in. Let's bring it in there according. Okay, so for sure. So let's, let's circle back to five minutes before our conversation go to. So you were telling me that you started a massive program? And you were telling the story of how that that happened?   Emaad  00:46 Yeah, for sure. So well, I was in touch with one of my professors, ever since I gave my final for that course, which I, if you remember, I was with you. Yeah. I was taking it with you last year in like, April. And I spoke to the professor and he was interested. And he actually followed up on email as well. And he's like, oh, like, you know, would you be interested in doing research, or a few other courses on side, and I think I discussed that with you as well, last time. Yes. Because it's always a good idea to take some courses, take some courses even after you graduate, because they're gonna help you with, they're gonna help you with your graduate applications. If you have a gap here, you can take one or two courses, put them on your transcript, and that's going to be helpful for you. So I didn't take that route. But I spoke to the professor, I met with him a lot, I read on his research, etc. And eventually, around November, that's when the time came to apply. So I went ahead and applied got a bunch of references. And all I had to do was wait pretty much until March, when I got my when I got my admission. And when I got my, I guess offer from University of Toronto. So right now it's a master's in physics that I'm doing at the University of Toronto. And what I'll be researching on is with Professor Barth, Netherfield, who is a pretty well known Canadian astronomer. And what he does in his lab, and the cool thing is he actually has his own lab. So it's a whole building that's dedicated for him. It's not an office, it's not a room, it's not a lab space. It's a whole building at the University of Toronto, um, I think it's a two storey building, but his his, so at the ground floor is sort of a lab or a huge space lab space. And then there's, there's computers and stuff upstairs. And what he does is he creates telescopes that are as they're trying to be as effective as Hubble. But at a cheaper cost. That's his ultimate goal to create accessible telescopes, accessible space telescopes. And then what he does is he launches them to space on balloons. So he goes to Antarctica, Sudbury or Timmins, Ontario. There's also New Zealand, where he goes, and then he launches them into space. He's trying to be as close to the north and south poles as possible. And what he aims to do is he aims to do similar research that can be done with Hubble, but at a much lesser cost, because you're doing balloon based astronomy. So, you know, you don't have to pay for thousands and thousands of tons of jet fuel to get the telescope up, like Hubble and maintain it with the International Space Station.   Pouya LJ  03:41 Yeah, well, that's, that's super interesting. And so what what got you? I mean, I know you wanted to do some sort of grad school program, but what got you to this specific program? What happened? I will   Emaad  03:55 be honest, I will be 100% honest, I wasn't really planning. I never thought that it would that I would be doing this last year. Especially when we were finishing our undergrad degree. I Well, I was finishing my undergrad degree and you're about to finish. We were taking the courses then. Yeah. And when I finished my last final, I think it was my second last final with you.   Pouya LJ  04:18 Yeah, sorry. My bad.   Emaad  04:19 Yeah, I thought you know what this is it. Like, I'm never gonna touch physics ever again. If you remember correctly, that week was probably the toughest week of our lives.   Pouya LJ  04:30 I I remember,   Emaad  04:33 there was classical mechanics. At at, at what time it was I think 9am 9am to 12pm. And then the next day we had electro mag. electromagnetism. Yeah. From 9am to 10 9am to 12pm. And then we had a one day break. Yeah, and we had general relativity.   Pouya LJ  04:55 Yeah, not not easy courses. Yeah,   Emaad  04:56 not even courses at all. Again from 9am to 12pm. And I honestly thought, you know what this is it like I'm done with everything related to physics. Yeah. And I wanted to, and then I worked in the cloud computing side of things. So I worked for a company called about extreme. And what I did with them was I helped consult for cloud based solutions on Microsoft Azure. And I helped build them as well. So I helped build chatbots, knowledge mining applications, more so towards the AI, more, so the applications that, that use AI, or more specifically Microsoft's own cognitive toolkit. But I was hoping to go more into that field. And I did look into some masters. But to be frank, I didn't have that much guidance. At that time with me, I didn't know which one to go for which one would be best. And I accidentally applied for a research based one. And the problem with that is that you need to have, it's very helpful to have a computer science background, if you want to go into a research based computer science degree. Yeah, that was sort of my mistake. But I did apply for a master's in physics as well. And I thought about it, I thought about whether it's a good idea to do it or not. And it is a one year program. And if I still want to apply for other graduate degrees in computer science, or data science, or artificial intelligence related fields, I can still do that, while I'm finishing up a Master's. So if I'm going to start next year, if I'll have to start a master's in computer science, or data science or something, next year for that might as well get a Master's, get another masters. Over with it, this is not gonna hurt. And it's a research based Master's. So the coolest thing about research based Master's is, most in most universities, in Canada, they pay you to do it, you're not paying anything out of your pocket, your tuition is covered. And on top of that, you're getting money for being a TA you're getting money for being a research assistant, and you're just getting grants. So that's one of the best things about about research based degrees. And this is applicable everywhere, around Canada, at least for whatever research base degree you have, whether it's a PhD or masters, you're going to be getting funding for it may not be obviously as much as you would get if you were doing the job or whatever. But I mean, look on the bright side, you're getting a degree out of it.   Pouya LJ  07:32 No, of course, that makes a lot of sense. Wow, that's a cool, cool, cool story, because we've been in contact through, you know, text messages and whatnot, but we haven't talked for probably over a year now. Yeah, or so. And I think   Emaad  07:49 some more comprehensive talk.   Pouya LJ  07:51 Yeah, like, exactly like catching up and stuff anyways. So. So it was it was a it was a shock to me, because I thought you're you're working for that company, that you were talking about classes. But   Emaad  08:04 the funny thing is, I actually might still be, I'm still debating on whether I should keep it part time or not. Because because of two main reasons. One, it's always important to get work experience. And even though this summer was kind of late for them, because of COVID. So there weren't that many projects coming in. Because our our main clients, the company has been clients are cities and governments in the United States, city government, state governments in the United States. So they've been more focused on COVID binding COVID. And they're less inclined on doing the projects that we've had in pipeline, I see. But now new things are coming up. And it's always exciting to work on these projects. That's that's one main issue. One mean, that's one main reason because there are upcoming projects. And the second thing is to further enhance my own learning. There's new things again, coming up. within Microsoft, Microsoft is releasing new products. And technology is a field where if you're not on top of it, you're gonna fall off the ladder very fast. So it's always better to be on top of it know your stuff. They still pay, they still help with certifications, the company helps it certification. So it's always better to get new certifications, because they also expired. Microsoft certifications expire every two years. So it's always good to have certification stay on top of things so that maybe when the Masters is over, if I don't want to pursue physics, then there's always this option of this option of cloud computing and AI.   Pouya LJ  09:44 No, that's true. That makes a lot of sense under what's good thinking. Thanks. No, no, that's true. Anyways, so we also had something else in actually we had entirely something else in mind to talk about which is fun. It's a, it's fun to talk about different stuff, too. You have some interesting thing going on which you actually got featured on a CBC article, I believe, if I'm not mistaken. Yes. So you like travel? I think a lot of people do. And you travel, you go round, you get their currency. And, you know, like, on the currency, there's typically a picture of something, your monument, a lot of times a monument and you go there with the currency and you take a picture, can you do you want to explain it better than I   Emaad  10:32 did? what you're doing, for sure. So a lot of a lot of listeners would probably know that. What a lot of a lot of different banknotes and a lot of coins, they occasionally have places on them. And that's representative of the country's identity. So if you look at the United States dollars, they'll have different government buildings on them. The five has Lincoln lincoln memorial in DC, the 10 has the US Treasury 20 has White House 50 has the Capitol building, and then 100 has the Independence Hall in Philadelphia. And you know, that's the same for a lot of other countries as well, they occasionally put a place in the country, on their banknotes just as a representative of their own identity representative of their own culture. And what I've been doing, this is a project actually started about, well, it's going to be it's going to be nearly five years, about five years back. And what I wanted to do was I wanted to travel to different places, would that would currencies of those places. So it could be where I'm from, I'm from Pakistan, so I could go, I could go there for Canada, US and other places as well, because a lot of currencies have places on them. So I made a plan to go to those places, travel to those exact spots that are on the currencies of those countries, and then take pictures over there. And it's been five years, I think it's I've taken more than 35 pictures more than 35 at least. And over the course of Yeah, over the course of five years in six countries. If I if my math is not mistaken.   Pouya LJ  12:23 I think you got it. You got it nailed down. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. So what inspired you to do that?   Emaad  12:32 That's, that's always a funny question. Because a lot of people ask that. Yeah. And I feel like part of me feels like, should I just make something up? That sound cool, because, honestly, speaking, there's nothing cool about the inspiration. All I know is like back in, I think five years ago, around November 2015. That's when I went to this place called mind Jotaro, which is in Pakistan. It's, it was part it was ruins from the Indus Valley civilisation, which is one of the three oldest civilizations in the world. Apart from the Egyptian, and I think the Mesopotamian. So that was actually based in around Pakistan, and there's a very big river in Pakistan called the Indus River was based around that. And I went there, and they remember, when I was growing up, I always saw the specific picture in my textbooks in school, and also on the notes. And I always thought about, you know, what a cool place that is, it's basically ruins 5000 year old ruins, or, and, you know, I want to go there and travel and see and see those ruins. And I always saw them on the back of the notes. So when I went there, I was finally able to go there on a family trip. I went there, and I asked the tour guide, I had an old 20 rupee note, which actually has its picture on it. And I went to, I went to the tour guide, and I was like, Hey, where was this picture taken? He took me to the exact spot. And I took a picture of it. And then what I did was, I put it up not just on Facebook and stuff, but also on Reddit. Because I thought this is something pretty cool. People would appreciate it. And it people did. People liked it a lot. I was received very well. And I thought, you know what, this is probably a really good excuse to travel to different places in Pakistan, at least at that time. And that time, I was just thinking of bugs. So I thought you know what, I should maybe do this. In Pakistan, I get a really good excuse to travel to different places, and the pictures would come out pretty nice. So that's sort of where it started. I've always thought about you know, I should make a cool story. I should just make it up and then just put that version out there but the origins aren't that amazing. No, no, look, it's actually pretty.   Pouya LJ  15:02 I don't know what you're talking about. It's actually pretty good. It's a very green coming about at a younger age. When you thought about this, it's actually I think, a very cool story on its own and beyond that, I think nothing, nothing beats the order, the honesty, the the originality and the truth and honesty of the story. Yeah, as boring as it sounds, I think. Yeah, back that is orange, that, first of all, is original. So it's not somebody else's thought, or somebody else might have thought it. But on the other hand, because it's truthful, it's genuine. I think that has a lot of value to it personally, that's it doesn't have to be extra sexy actually, now not to get to cultural issues. But maybe that's that's one of the problems with our culture, especially the online culture these days, because everybody wants to make everything extra sexy. And that's it. Yeah. Sometimes publicity is actually the sexy part.   Emaad  16:01 That is very true. Yeah. Instead of you know, making up something big. And in the story that could have lifted up so many holes and stuff like that. It's always better to just stay simple.   Pouya LJ  16:10 Yeah. Yeah. No, I completely loved it. And don't don't sell it short. It is more interesting than you think it is. Okay, so that's cool. Cool story. Now, that gets us to currencies. So I know you have interest in technology. We actually talked about it today. And there is a degree of Okay, so that those are like government backed currencies. Now, obviously, those are the paper ones. All, I mean, we always were backed by those, but we also are removing them from our day to day interactions more and more. Yeah, as you progress towards credit cards, or debit cards are basically becoming electronic, which loses a little bit of touch. So I think you're bringing out a little bit on the stalls, you're there to, to the to the people who have forgotten what their dollars or whatever currencies look like. Yeah,   Emaad  17:07 you know, there's a funny thing about that. I was I was meeting up with a friend of mine, a few days back. And we were speaking about this project and stuff because I met him after a long while. And he, he was telling me, well, I said he's actually from China. So I said, oh, maybe I should go to China next and, and take take pictures of Chinese currency. Yeah. And he laughed about it. He's like, good luck finding one. Oh, because China has basically moved on to digital currency they have I think WeChat and Ali pay. I think those are the names if I'm correct. But what they do is they it's all digital payments, they have QR codes, they just scan there, they just scan those QR codes so they can pay whatever they whatever amount they need to pay. And, you know, if I'm paying money to you, if I'm giving money to you, or anything that's over V chat, as well. And it's such a streamlined system that they've made, that they no longer have to use paper currency at all. So he was laughing about that. And that resonates with what you said, because so many people are just digital, they're into digital banking, there's no more paper currency anymore. There's no more paper currency. Because I mean, why carry it around? Why case so much of it around in your wallet, when you can just put one card? And that accesses all your money at once.   Pouya LJ  18:29 Right? Yeah, no, that's true. And it makes a lot of sense. But but but you're adding that value on a artistic and social level I suppose. To to your work, which is, which is very interesting. Do you have you have what are the next plans? Do you have any any plans? Now? Like concrete plans to go next country or city or   Emaad  18:49 whatever? I mean, how can you make it How can anyone make any concrete plan?   Pouya LJ  18:54 Well, actually, that's true. That was a stupid question. Over there, I totally forgot.   Emaad  19:00 It's a very tough time to create concrete plans. I mean, I've done a country's I've completed our Pakistan, my home country, the EU, the US, Panama, Canada, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates. And Funny enough, Oman and the United Arab Emirates. I've only done a couple of their notes, not all of them. And that was because I was only there for a very short time. I think I was in UAE for about like 15 hours. And I was in Oman for about like 10 hours. Was that a layover? So that those are layover? Yeah. So what I've been doing is I occasionally travel between Canada and Pakistan often. If I'm if I want to go back home, meet family etc. And what I've always been trying to do is trying to find cool layovers. So usually I fly through the Middle East. And that's that sort of that sort of normal, because there's lots of airlines that connect through the Middle East, and or it through Turkey or through other countries or through Europe. So what I try to do is I try to find a different layover, where I can not only visit a new countries airport, but also stay there for like 1015 hours. A lot of airlines will offer is they offered like, two three hour connection. And then they also offer a 15 hour connection. And usually, the 15 hour connection is much cheaper, because so many people are just hoping to get to the airport, stay there for one hour and then get on their next flight angle. But instead, what I try to do is I try to find like a 15 hour layover or a 20 hour layover, so I can actually see the country I can go out of the airport, get an excuse to see. Yeah, see places. And along with that, what I do is then I exchange some exchange some money to get their own currency. I'd well I do research before to see which notes should would make sense. And then what I do is I I try to see which notes would make sense which notes are within reach of where I am. And then I get those notes from a currency exchange at the airport. And then I just tried to go to those places. And that's sort of how I've done it pretty much for most of us. That's how much that's how I've been doing it recently. With the layovers, I've also done Canada. There's a bunch of places within Canada. Sorry, before you   Pouya LJ  21:32 go ahead, I have to add something. For those people who complain about the boringness of layovers, get creative people. This is how you how you make it worth your while I   Emaad  21:42 continue. That is That is very true. I mean, I I love layovers, because an excuse to you know, go around, go travel. Yeah, for sure. I know a lot of people for for a lot of people. I mean, I'll make sense. Yeah, maybe they're in a hurry to get back or get somewhere or something. And they just here to airports. It could be a variety of reasons, or they're tired. But I personally believe that if there's a layover, I should spend it. Traveling or, you know, looking at different things make the most of it. This summer, I was going to travel via Turkey, via Turkish Airlines. And I had the option of a five hour layover in Istanbul, or a 25 hour layover. So I opted for the 25 hour layover, which is actually much cheaper, of course. So I both saved money. And I talked to the airline. And this is something cool. A lot of airlines will do this for you. They will give you a hotel room, and they'll cover your visa costs. They'll cover your visit transit visa costs, as well free of cost. Turkish Airlines was doing that Turkish Airlines gave a free hotel. Free hotel for one night, which is very cool. I mean, I just I just go there and they will take me to the hotel. They'll give me a free hotel. And then I can just go and visit. I did this with Emirates as well. When I was traveling with Emirates, I had a 15 or 16 hour layover in Dubai. And all I had to do was just apply online, it takes five seconds. And when I get to the airport, they give me they give me a hotel voucher, and food voucher, and a couple of food vouchers. So my food was covered. They gave me a free hotel. And they gave me they transported me from the hotel to the airport and the airport and airport to the hotel. And this is all for free. And it's not something you need business class for is an economy class ticket. Right?   Pouya LJ  23:51 Yeah, you were you were going on to sorry, it took you off a tangent, but you were sorry. Originally you were going off to talk about your experience in Canada on what you did.   Emaad  24:00 Yeah, for sure. Um, I mean for Canada, the current notes are not super indicative of different places in Canada. Number of the $5 note, which you might have seen has space on the back has international has actually the Canadarm that is something that can be made it on the International Space Station. It has that so I think that's kind of tough. The $10 note has Jasper National Park that one I've actually done. I did that last year. I did a train going through Jasper National Park in Alberta. The $20 note has a memorial. It's still a place it's still a building but that memorial is actually in France, interestingly enough, and then the 50 and 100 don't really have any specific places on them. So what I've instead been doing is I've looked at older nodes in Canada. So there's the old one $1 old $1 notes old hundred dollar notes, a lot of old $1 notes are in Ottawa, they have a lot of government buildings on them. And the old hundred dollar note was in Lunenburg, which is in Nova Scotia, so I went there last winter, just on a road trip to take a picture of it there. Now, there's another one that I took, which is the newest note for of Canada, which is the new $10 note. And I went to Winnipeg, just for a two day trip, I was able to find a really cheap flight out of Hamilton, Hamilton to Winnipeg at fault places. I was able to find a really cheap flight. So I went on a weekend trip over there. And that is the one when you started the call when you started this podcast. That's the one that you were mentioning the that was the one that was featured on CBC. Nice. Um, so CBC took note of that, and they said, oh, wow, someone came to visit Winnipeg from Toronto to take a picture. This is something like that. And they should feature   Pouya LJ  26:06 Yeah, a little bit of caveat for anybody who knows anything about geography of Canada and especially in the wintertime. I don't know when you went there was it winter or I think it was winter because I can see some snow there or there's some snow anyways. So point being it like you from Nova Scotia. You know, the Winnebago, they have nothing in common like there's like to go out of your way to go there. It's not like you're having a layover in Istanbul or Dubai or something. It's a different game. ballgame. So just I have to add that caveat for people who are not   Emaad  26:41 Yeah. And they're and they're far like,   Pouya LJ  26:43 yeah, now that's what I mean.   Emaad  26:45 The province where Toronto is, it's Ontario, and Winnipeg is in Manitoba. And they're both bordering each other. But the problem The biggest problem is trying to so far south in Canada, as opposed to other places in in Canada, like Winnipeg, in Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver. They're very far up north. Toronto is very far south. Yeah, it was a two hour flight just to win it back itself. Which is mind blowing. Because you're going north, you're going north, Northwest a lot. Yeah. But it was pretty cool. It was a fun trip. My flight got canceled on the way back, which is very fun as well. Oh. But that gave me more excuses. You know, travel, pay my friend. We decided to go to CES Saskatchewan, just to the border of it. And Funny enough, now that I'm remembering it. Well, we decided to do was we had a rental car. So we just extended one more day. And he said, You know what? It's a four hour drive to Saskatchewan, which going back to your Canadian geography has nothing in it. There's nothing in there. It's a whole province with nothing in it. Yeah, it's it's just in the middle of Canada. It's just land. There's nothing wrong. I don't think anyone even lives there. And it's just a four hour drive just to the border of it and the border of it. Believe it or not, there was nothing there. It was just a sign that said Welcome to Saskatchewan. So we took a picture with it just to prove that we have been here. And then we went on a four hour trip back to Winnipeg. And on that four hour trip back to Winnipeg, my friend drove and I decided to I decided to finish my application for my physics Master's. And I submitted it that night while I was somewhere on the road between Saskatchewan in Winnipeg.   Pouya LJ  28:38 Yeah, that's that's, that's pretty cool. And I'm actually trying to figure out how much the province like the population of the province, but for some reason I'm failing. I think it's I don't know if it's the city of population.   Emaad  28:54 No, there's a city called Saskatoon. And there's two major cities and ask a tune in Regina. Yeah, but the population of Saskatchewan. I find, I think it's 1 million.   Pouya LJ  29:07 Yeah, it's a gigantic province, with 1 million population.   Emaad  29:12 I think it's the I don't know if it's the biggest.   Pouya LJ  29:16 No, it's not the biggest, like on the map is definitely smaller than Ontario, Quebec, even British Columbia, but it's close enough to Alberta maybe a little bit smaller than Alberta. But point being it's still a lot of land there. And the entire population is like 1,000,001.1. Just Just to, you know, confirm your   Emaad  29:40 identity is there's one there's 1.86. So basically two people per kilometer squared. Yes, a few. If you create a box that is a kilometer wide and kilometer, that is just to each each side of the box is a kilometre, which is a very big number. There's only two people who live in there.   Pouya LJ  30:07 Yeah, that's a very big house for you.   Emaad  30:11 And versus Ontario, if I'm correct, the density of Ontario is 15 people per kilometer squared. Right? So that's, that's the key difference.   Pouya LJ  30:23 Yeah, that's like, so unfolds almost. Yeah. I'm done by five anyways. Um, yeah, what? Let's, let's move on a little bit, because we want to talk about we got to, you know, more computerized digital currencies, not necessarily digital currencies in terms of cryptocurrency, which we'll get to but, um, so we talked, we talked about technology coming into disrupting really anything, everything, and currency being one of them. for for for many reasons, why, now that that naturally brings us also to the realm of cryptocurrency, which, well, what are you going to do? cryptocurrencies don't have monuments on them printed, that they don't print? But joke aside? What are your thoughts on the digitization of currency and maybe even you know, distributed currencies such as cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin, what have you? Do? Do you have any interest in them? Do you read about them?   Emaad  31:31 Yeah, I do. I do a lot. And I, I think it's very interesting, not just from an investing perspective, but from a practical perspective.   Pouya LJ  31:40 Well, investment can be practical if you do it right.   Emaad  31:42 Investing can be practical, but it comes with its own caveats, especially investing in cryptocurrency, it's a very risky thing to do. Sure. And you could, you could probably just lose a lot of your money. If you invest, without thinking or without, you know, without the right tools without the right resources. If you do that, then you can lose a lot of money in crypto, but I was talking more so the practicality on the practical side of things on the technology behind it. how they've made something open source, and decentralized. They've made something which no one can touch and chain, no one person can go in and touch and change. Its cryptocurrency and Bitcoin and those things, they they're the Ledger's. They're, their records, they're everything, they, they stay with the people. There's no one person who controls everything. And I think that's that's a beautiful aspect of the digital currency. Because its power comes in its numbers. If a lot of people use Bitcoin, then it's more strong. There's more, I guess records, there's more copies of everything. And that technology can then be applied to so many different things that can be applied to contracts. blockchain can be applied to supply chain logistics, to ensure nothing has changed to ensure there's to ensure the right tracing of materials that people are getting food, and so many different things. But just from a currency standpoint, this is a very tough debate. Because a lot of countries a lot of banks are against this because this is against what they've been doing throughout throughout, I guess, throughout the startup humanity, or throughout the start of banking, at least because the main essence of a bank and a central bank is in the name. It's centralized. Yeah. And if you decentralize parents, if you decentralize money, if you decentralize your own local currency, then how are you going to achieve anything? In terms of you know, regulating power, regulating finances, making sure money doesn't go into the wrong hands. Even the wrong may be a subjective word. But there's so many different things that come in with it, that I personally believe it would be a bit tough to move to it all together. In my opinion,   Pouya LJ  34:12 by altogether You mean like removing the central banks from the central, the regular currencies of countries? Yeah. And making it the dominant. Okay.   Emaad  34:20 Yes. But with that, I also think it is hard for them, the centralized banks to completely remove cryptocurrencies. I mean, a lot of a bunch of countries have made it illegal to have them. I don't know which countries are but I remember there were a bunch of countries that said it's illegal to trade it or have it even. But they're not going anywhere, either. Because they're a force to be reckoned with. They're they're not they're not just something small with banks and say, Oh, that's illegal. Get rid of them. You know, Pete, they're, like I said before, their strength comes in how many people hold it, and I think that's going to be interesting. Day by day. I was talking to a friend of mine who wanted to transfer money from, I think it was from the EU or not from. Yeah, it was from Pakistan to the US. And she was asking me, what's the best way to do it. And whether she should wire transferred, whether she should Western Union it or something else. And I looked at the fees and wire transfer fees were more than 1500. dollars, she would have to pay Western Union fees were around that probably even higher, that she'll have to pay. And that's a huge chunk of your money that they're taking. Yeah. But I suggested, oh, why don't you just buy crypto over there? over the counter crypto, which is you're just paying someone money, and they transfer cryptocurrency to your wallet. And then you just transfer that crypto to whoever you need to send it to in the US. And that takes wire transfers can take two weeks, Western Union can take like at least a day or two that can take like five seconds, maybe a bit more obviously be based on based on how much you pay for the gas, etc. so many different things. But it's still less than less than a day, you can get money from here to there. And then they can just sell it over the counter or cash it out. Or they can do whatever they want. And that's how you can just easily transfer money using crypto as well. So I think it is a force to be reckoned with, what banks would need to do is figure out what's the middle ground here? How can they eat, right? incorporate that into their own systems into their own, into their own platforms? Because Funny enough, the weakest. The point, the place where digital currencies are weak, is the fact that some people can't trust them because they're decentralized. So they're like, oh, then who's going to be taking who's going to be, you know, handling it, who's going to be in charge of dispersing it and stuff. So there's no trust there. But on the other hand, people have started losing trust onto central banks themselves. Because they don't make the best policies. So it's sometimes it's better to have something decentralized.   Pouya LJ  37:29 Yeah, that does make sense. So there is definitely I mean, as with a lot of things, there's there are weaknesses and strengths. And obviously, one of the strength of cryptocurrencies, is mobility of it, etc. Also, just just to close that loop of legality, so the three countries that are definitely illegal, and there's like, there are some countries that have greater areas, but in Algeria, Egypt and Morocco is outright illegal, just for closing that loop. And there's a lot of other countries that are like, somewhere in between. Yeah, meaning some restrictions. But generally speaking, it's legal, etc. So we can put this into notes. And,   Emaad  38:19 yeah, for sure. So now there is something interesting that I, that I came across, and I worked with, I worked briefly with, with the team behind it. There's something called UBI. This is just very generic. There's something called UBI, universal basic income. Yeah, and this is something that has been debated in a lot of countries attempted in a lot of countries and a bunch of places at least, I think Germany is trying that out right now. And just giving universal basic income to some of its citizens.   Pouya LJ  38:54 Andrew Yang is making a lot of noise,   Emaad  38:56 Yang was making that the biggest point of his presidency, there were a couple of places I think in Canada that tried it, if I'm if I'm not wrong, a while back. And there's I can't get much into the details of it. But there is a there is a there's a consortium that is actually based in Canada, that is trying to get together a lot of UBI experts from around the world and work towards creating a global UBI which is going to be a key Their aim is that it's adopted throughout the world. And everyone gets a certain UBI per month, per day, per hour per second. I mean, there's going to be one amount per month, but then that's going to be per week and then you get that every second of your existence. And that's going to be actually I think one of the smartest ways to go about it would probably be on blog. And that's something that that I came across. And I briefly work with them on some of their some and some of the technical side of their project. And that's something that's very cool because now it's using blockchain using using utilizing blockchain, which is, again, the technology that's been brought forward by these digital currencies. And that's where the practicality thing comes in. But now they're putting it into a very large scale where they're asking for global adoption and global adoption for it. which hopefully would replace the need for conventional currency, and create a global system where everyone can earn a basic income to live, essentially, to at least cover where they're living to cover their food to cover their health related things. Which is, I believe it should be right for everyone. Everyone should be able to do that.   Pouya LJ  41:04 Yeah. So now the natural question, especially for universal UBI. Being while UBI has universal and but my point is being like around the world, not just containing a country. An actual question is cost of living and the value of currency, etc. is completely diff No, assuming we still trading regular currencies, not just the crypto ones, that there is a degree of asymmetry here that so is the proposal of this team. By the way, can you can you mention them by name?   Emaad  41:41 I don't know if that's? I mean, the name is global UPI.   Pouya LJ  41:44 Oh, you mentioned it? Okay. Yeah. Anyways, so is the proposal a fixed amount for every single person on the planet? Or is it different, depending on assessment of what are your cost of living? Where you live? by country, by city by province by? I don't know, what have you? Is there a distinction? Or it's just a fixed amount?   Emaad  42:09 See, that's the the project is I believe in preliminary phases, or I'm not 100% sure where they are, and whether they're in testing or whether they're sort of just beginning to research on it. And I frankly, do not know the answer to this.   Pouya LJ  42:27 Do you have Do you have your own thoughts on the matter?   Emaad  42:30 And the thing is, if if it is a global currency, and if everyone is has sort of access to the same currency? Yeah, then there shouldn't really be a problem with cost of living?   Pouya LJ  42:46 Well, I think I think there will be still, what, two two folds for one fold. Is that, okay, if we only adopt, I would,   Emaad  42:53 my question is, why would something be why would like, let's go to the Big Mac index, which is something I promise economists use. If there's a Big Mac in the US for let's say, let's say the the UBI currency, the new currency for the world is world dollars. Sure. There's a Big Mac in the US, which costs one world dollar. The currency in Turkey is also world dollar. Why would the Big Mac there be less?   Pouya LJ  43:26 Yeah. Okay, that's so that's that's the first fold of the problem, though I was talking about. And that is, as if that's the, okay, if that's the dominant currency traded?   Emaad  43:39 Sure. Their goal is to have world adoption of this. Okay. So that   Pouya LJ  43:45 will solve   Emaad  43:46 the would give way to, yeah, it would give away. Well, digital and non digital banks, central banks would give weight, this currency to come in. And the main essence of this currency is to make sure that it's secure and no one person would be able to access everything and change everything. Does that compromise the security of it? Yeah. So if there is, again, like I said, if there's a Big Mac for one US dollar, one world dollar, then wouldn't have the same Big Mac, we won World dollar somewhere else, because there's no other currency to base it off of. Yeah. So where would the cost of living? How would the cost of living and stuff be compared?   Pouya LJ  44:32 Well, you when you're talking about stuff, like I don't know, franchises or something? Yes, you're absolutely right. That makes sense. But if you're talking about for example, cost of land. Well, that definitely certainly has differences as you do within a country. Let's take Canada for example. Obviously, the price of homes in the heart of Toronto is completely different than say Saskatoon, that was what we were talking about, right? So, so in that sense, I mean, you can argue that the cost of living within The cities also started within the country is also different, which is reasonable. That's   Emaad  45:05 that's based on demand. Exactly supply that's really based off of, I mean, what the currency is doing, but it's no normal. So there's more space here more people want to live here.   Pouya LJ  45:16 Absolutely, they're gonna be worth more. So the land was an example of a commodity or, or something that would have different values, depending on where you are in a country and more importantly, in a world, right, that has the certainly has different, different many things have different values in different places in the world. And that alone can cost per debate, the cost of living by a lot, depending on which part of the world you're living, the basic cost of living, let's say, shelter, basic food, water, clean water, and   Emaad  45:51 I get what I get the question that you're I get what you're saying. And I agree that other things could be worth more other things could be worth less. And you're right, there's places in Canada right now, up very north, where food is so expensive. Exactly. Because they have to transport it over there and get it over there. So the cost of living over there is high. Yes, I agree with you. I agree with what you're saying that. Also living can be different because of these reasons. But the thing is that the UBI that I mentioned, sure, it doesn't aim to fully cover everything in your life. Yeah, of course. Because if it does that, then yeah, there's no motivation to do anything, even though that's a completely different debate with UBI motivation. But it's more so meant as a cushion for you. In some places, I mean, you could move to Saskatchewan. And you may be able to live comfortably on a UBI. Yeah, there's rent, there may be cheap food, there may be cheap. I mean, they're farmers, a lot of farms over there, but everything maybe cheap over there. So you might save money with the UBI. But where it says if you're in Toronto, then if you're getting a certain UBI, you may not be able to cover all your expenses with a UBI, you might still have to work. But I guess that's just the that's that's how this is. That's how everything should be. Because I mean, if if you're going somewhere else, if you're going somewhere where there's a very, there's very low demand for something and things should be cheaper. Yeah, if you're going somewhere where there's more demand and things would ideally be more expensive. That's the main essence of sort of a capitalist environment. Yeah, more equals more money.   Pouya LJ  47:44 No, absolutely. That That doesn't make sense. My concern was, and you're right, within a country, etc. So the difference that I was imagining is that the Delta within a country is much more marginal than a Delta currently, at least in the in the whole world. Like, if you give the highest value and the lowest value cost of living in different parts of the world, the delta is much larger than within one country. Okay, that actually to be argued, depending on the country you pick, but yeah, but for most of the world, at least. But I suppose if you and part of that comes from the the big Delta around the whole world, perhaps comes from the fact that the currencies have different values, maybe if you actually do a flatten out everything, and everybody adopts a common currency, at least as a dominant chords, that the trade end, I mean, it doesn't mean that the rest of the currencies will be eliminated completely, but they're not the main one at least, then maybe there's Yeah, maybe there's a degree of flattening this. This Delta make it a little bit smaller. That could be argued, I don't know. But that was Yeah, I'm just trying to paint a picture of what I was   Emaad  49:00 imagining. No, yeah, I understand. I understand what you're saying. But like I said, it's not something that is meant to replace everything in your life, and give you access to everything you want. Because that's gonna lead into way many more problems, because then everyone has access to whatever they want, for sure. But it's more so a cushion for you to at least live your life, to not starve on the streets do not to have your basic necessities at least covered wherever you are, you can be in Toronto, you could be wherever. And obviously, for the economic system to grow, people would still need to work because to create a living they would need there wouldn't be innovation around the world. And none of that is in danger. Because of UBI   Pouya LJ  49:45 Yeah, no, no, that makes sense. I mean, obviously these topics especially the UBI and cryptocurrency have endless spanned, and we can spend hours and hours talking about them which we may at some point, but We've come we've come a long way. I think all we've done almost one hour right now. So, yeah, I think it's a good place to, you know, close the loop on everything do you have? Do you have anything you want to add to summarize? No,   Emaad  50:16 not so much. I mean, I agree. This is a good, some good point. Where to where to pause it. And I'm sure there's going to be way many more discussions about UBI. And I'd love to, you know, have more. You, of course, as I as I research more on   Pouya LJ  50:32 it, exactly how I think about it. Now, I think it's gonna be really good. These discussions are obviously always fun to have and a lot of times constructive helpful. And yeah, I enjoy talking.   Emaad  50:47 Yeah. And yeah, that's really good. So it was a great, it was a great time discussing all these cool things.   Pouya LJ  50:53 Yeah. Yeah, no, that's great. Okay, so we'll put your information in the show notes, too. But do you want to tell people where they can find you online?   Emaad  51:04 Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm, you can find me on Instagram, which is pr racha explores. That's pa ra, ch, e XP l or Yes. Or you can also find me on LinkedIn, which is e mod beracha. That is e m, a D. and last name is parotta. Pa ra ch a, if you want to talk about anything regarding the currency project, which is going to be more on my Instagram, or more about physics, or UBI, or anything like that, and I'd love to talk more.   Pouya LJ  51:41 Yeah, that's awesome. As I mentioned, obviously, we're going to put this in the show notes, so anybody who didn't get that they can go and look it up there. Thanks again, Bob. I was really fun talking to you Jason

Learn more about KidfreshSupport the show and even get on monthly mentorship calls with Fabian. Join here.Full Transcript:F Geyrhalter:Welcome to the show, Matt.M Cohen:Thank you. Nice to meet you.F Geyrhalter:Absolutely. So in your bio it states, "As someone who was interested in how brands connect with consumers, Matt was looking to develop a concept that would really connect to people's lives and be meaningful." Now, this statement alone got me so excited to have you on the show. You actually went from being a management consultant at Accenture to a COO at a consulting practice that got sold to Omnicom, which those in the industry know, that's the big one, and now you're hiding veggies in frozen meals for kids with your brand Kidfresh. Tell us a bit how and why you started this brand.M Cohen:Well, I'm still wondering every day. I don't know. I had a career, everything was fine, and then one morning I woke up and I'm like, "What kind of bad food..." excuse my French "... kids are being fed here in the US?" Basically what happened to put it simply is, I became a parent. I became a father. And as such, I started to experience what kids eat in this country, and I was absolutely horrified. So coming from France, I could not understand and even accept that kids were fed with such junk food. That's how it started.F Geyrhalter:And as far as I understand, Kidfresh started as a retail store in New York City, serving freshly prepared wholesome meals for kids, right?M Cohen:That's right. Our initial idea was to create a retail concept, a chain, a little bit like a Starbucks for kids, but with freshly prepared foods and other grocery items for kids, all natural and organic. That was the initial idea, so we created a store in Manhattan on the Upper East Side, initially.F Geyrhalter:And what happened? What happened to the store versus going with frozen food?M Cohen:So what happened basically is that... First of all, the store really established the brand, and it was really great because when I started the business with my partner I was being bombarded by requests for interviews from all over the world because the concept had really resonated everywhere. So, I mean, literally, I was on the phone doing interviews with the Radio Tokyo, and then being interviewed with Canadian newspapers and then Middle Eastern radio, these type of things. I was like, okay, well, maybe that's it. Maybe I made it in America, but more importantly what happened also from a business standpoint is that this attracted a lot of other retailers and other brands that were always coming to the store and exploring what we were doing, right? Essentially the most important one for us initially was Whole Foods.M Cohen:They came to the store, we had a great conversation, they were like, "Okay, hey, why don't we bring your products into our stores?"F Geyrhalter:Interesting.M Cohen:... and, "sure." And so we started doing that in New York City first. First in one store, then in all the stores in New York City, and then we had other states that were interested in carrying our line, and so we quickly realized that the opportunity was actually outside of the store much more than with the store, and that we would have a much greater impact and a much faster impact by going wholesale versus than going retail, one store at a time, brick and mortar and all that, all the capital expenses and resources that it required. Demand came from other retailers and we're like, "Okay, let's flip the switch and go wholesale."F Geyrhalter:And did Kidfresh... was that the brand name for the store that transitioned over to frozen?M Cohen:Yes, absolutely.F Geyrhalter:That's amazing.M Cohen:We kept the same... Yeah. Yeah.F Geyrhalter:And I have the feeling that given your very different background, the management consulting life, it must have shaped your first year running Kidfresh.M Cohen:Oh yeah. I mean, I thought everything happened on PowerPoint and Excel when I came in. [inaudible 00:04:52] consulting and then I realized that real life is somewhat different. So it was a big learning for me, for sure. But what did help me was to at least have some sort of framework of processes and organization and structure that needed to be put in place for any business. Right?F Geyrhalter:Right.M Cohen:... Rules and responsibilities, accountabilities, who reports to whom, systems, structures. So that really gave me a framework that I still carry with me today as I continue to grow the business.F Geyrhalter:And on top of that, it sounds like that your background always flirted with branding, right? I mean, you were always just a degree separated from branding, from marketing, and I'm sure that that influenced you too in finally launching your own brand.M Cohen:Oh, absolutely. I mean, particularly when the company that I worked with before was sold into Omnicom, I was completely immersed with other agencies, and being on the account side, managing accounts, and really looking at it from the branding and communication side of things. So, that brought me even more, a sense of what can make a brand succeed, basically.F Geyrhalter:And coming from that background and working with agencies and being surrounded by agencies, did you invest in branding immediately? When you started the first retail store, did you actually fully invest in, let's get this set up the right way? Or was that something that came a little bit later and you were winging it more in the beginning?M Cohen:It's the former. We really started with branding. We really started with finding the right name, first and foremost, and we did some surveys and we did some analysis and so on and so forth to really find a name that we felt resonated. Right? When you think about Kidfresh, it seems obvious, but it didn't exist. And so we explored lots of different names, and then we hired a branding agency from the get-go to really develop our brand positioning, our identity, and all our entire brand book from logo to colors to fonts and all the other attributes that make a brand as such.F Geyrhalter:That's music to my ears. How do you think that impacted you? How do you think it helped you versus taking it slow and bootstrapping the branding aspect?M Cohen:I think it really helped us get immediate credibility. We looked bigger than we were, and as such we conveyed more credibility and also more trust because it's a business where you provide foods to children, and it was important that we established trust with parents from day one. And so we went very much into branding with a sense of, this is a way for us to get our name and our idea out there in a way that will engage the consumers in a favorable way.F Geyrhalter:Absolutely. Absolutely. What does branding mean to you now that you've been with Kidfresh for a while and given your background, what does that term branding mean to you? Because it's such a misunderstood term. People just think it's a logo, but it's so much more, what does it mean to you?M Cohen:It is several things. It is first of all, an identity, and it's as much an identity for the consumers than it is also for yourself, your employees, your teams, your third party partners, right? You have a name, you have a look and feel, you stand for something. Right? So, that's very important. And then secondly, I think it's also an emotional connection with our consumers, right? We mean something, our name means something. When you buy a product Kidfresh, you know that's not going to be junk food, that it sounds and feels good for you. And that's what we stand for. Right? So it's not a lie. It's actually to the contrary, it's very much all promise. So, an identity and an emotional connection with a promise behind it. That's what branding stands for.F Geyrhalter:Very well put. One comes to think about like, when you started this brand of creating food, in the beginning, regular food and then frozen food once you went past retail into the actual retail stores, not your own store, how do you create food? Someone who doesn't have that background, did you have a co-founder that came from the food background?M Cohen:Yes.F Geyrhalter:Okay. Okay.M Cohen:Yeah. My co-founder had experience at Dannon for many years...F Geyrhalter:Perfect.M Cohen:... [inaudible 00:10:22] surrounded ourselves with experts. We started with a pediatric nutritionist from NYU. We visited childhood obesity pediatric units in hospitals in the Tri-state area in New York just to understand what was going on. We had retail experts. So I think building a team of experts that fill the gaps is also critical. Going back, maybe to your point about management consulting, is really creating an advisory board, helped us a lot initially.F Geyrhalter:That is really, really good to hear, and that's not always the case with today's startups. I absolutely, hundred percent agree with that. I surround myself with experts all the time, because that's why they're experts. And just a couple of minutes with an expert can save us hours and weeks of time, sometimes. So very much [crosstalk 00:11:17]. You're also very data driven. It sounds like you get a lot of input, you do a lot of questionnaires, you get a lot of answers. Was there ever a moment where you got a lot of ideas back and you get a lot of customer data and you felt like, "You know what, thank you for that, but I'm actually going to go a totally different way with this." May it be a certain product launch. Even at the beginning of Kidfresh, was there ever a time where you did a crazy brand move just based on your gut instinct, where you felt, "You know what, this is my brand, this is my baby. I want to go that route even though everyone says go to the other direction."M Cohen:So, it's very interesting because we've been bombarded with ideas and opportunities to go in so many different directions, which in a sense is a good thing because it shows the brand resonates and has legs beyond what we're doing. But one key area where we were really solicited very much by consumers and also retailers to go into snacks, dry snacks, right? So that we had more portability and the Kidfresh brand name could extend in portable, nutritious snacks for kids. And we started to play with it quite frankly, but then we realized that it would be so big and distract us so much from our core, right? Our core being food like meals, cooked meals, that even though there was a legitimate demand and certainly a potential in the business, if we were to go that route, it would be too risky for the overall company as a whole. And so [inaudible 00:13:09] said, "No, not for now, but it's certainly in the back of our mind, but not for now."F Geyrhalter:And I think it all comes back to your positioning and to your purpose, right? Because you can always point back to that and say, well, our purpose is not to have snacks, but our purpose is actually to have real meals that have the hidden veggies [crosstalk 00:13:28] Right. Exactly. So, that's one of those big advantages to have that purpose nailed down early on, and it's kind of like your guiding light that you can always use for a brand and you don't get sidetracked to saying yes to all these amazing opportunities, which they are all amazing opportunities. Right? So on the flip side, was there ever anything that you did with your brand, may it have been a campaign or may it have been a new launch or a change of colors or logos or anything where you felt like, "Oh, that totally went off the rails."M Cohen:I would say... You know what, going back to snacks and handheld products, when we were exploring the snack idea we were like, well, maybe there are some snacks that you can do in frozen. Right? And we tried that, we did some frozen burritos and things like that, but realized that this was too much of a departure for the consumers in terms of their habits and what they knew, and it didn't work out as we had planned. Yeah. That's a line of products that we felt, "Hey, let's try to do some frozen snacks." but were not... It's not what we expected.F Geyrhalter:And it's just a couple of degrees away from what you usually do and it already didn't resonate. Right? It's so interesting how consumers are so... Your brand means something so specific to them, and even if you just go a little bit the other way, it's already too much for them. To me, that's fascinating.M Cohen:It is. But it speaks also to the relationship and the connection we have with the consumers, and that's a great asset for us really. It's a unique element of our business, and we have the highest loyalty in the category. So, our consumers want us and want us to stay who we are.F Geyrhalter:Besides obvious sales, but how do you feel that loyalty? Do you feel it on social media or do people write to you? What are some of those messages you get as a brand that makes you feel like, "You know what, people really have our back. They absolutely love us."M Cohen:Well, we have actual data. We have access to data that shows that a consumer that did not buy Kidfresh before, and that tries it once, will repurchase it over, and over, and over again. We have the data, it's very clear. We have the highest loyalty rate in the industry, over 60%. And then that translates also into messages and things that are more sort of content, if you will. People share stories or they talk to their friends or they refer the brand, but the data is the data.F Geyrhalter:Oh, absolutely. Yeah.M Cohen:It's very clear.F Geyrhalter:Absolutely. So you started your retail store, you got all of this amazing press and suddenly Whole Foods came knocking. Was that the moment where you felt like, "You know what, we have something here." Or was there another big breakthrough moment for the brand where you were in a certain amount of stores, or did something happen where you felt like there was one day where Matt sat back with his glass of Bordeaux and said, "You know what, this is it. We have a brand." ?M Cohen:Well, I mean, certainly the initial conversation with Whole Foods, for sure. But then we started to branch out of the store in different ways. For instance, we had a little refrigerated kiosks to JFK airport at the JetBlue and American Airline terminal [crosstalk 00:17:25] where we were [inaudible 00:17:26] travel lunchboxes for kids. And that was sort of branching out of the store in the first way. Then we had the Whole Foods [inaudible 00:17:40], that was the second thing. And then we were also doing a lot of catering, but branded catering for the FAO Schwarz store in New York [crosstalk 00:17:49], Build-A-Bear store in New York. We were their catering operation.M Cohen:So, at the end of the day, there's a point where you do so much more business outside of the store than in the store that really you understand that that's where you need to go, right?F Geyrhalter:Yeah. Yeah.M Cohen:The store being such an operational sort of weight, if you will, to carry every day, at some point you cannot do both. You'll have to make a decision. Am I a wholesale operation or am I a retail business? Right? And I clearly remember that day. It was like one of these days that is like a total nightmare, you cannot even see the light, and you're like, "Okay, we just cannot do this anymore. We have to pick and decide who we are."F Geyrhalter:Yeah. So instead of this being a celebratory moment, it was actually a moment of anxiety because you had too much going on and too many opportunities, and you just had to create some clarity?M Cohen:In a way. In a way. But after that anxiety came also a relief.F Geyrhalter:Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Absolutely. If you would look at the Kidfresh brand today, and if you would look at the positioning of the brand, of the values of the brand, of what you really stand for as a brand, you would put this down into one word, I call it your brand DNA. If you would be able to describe Kidfresh in one or two words, what would it be?M Cohen:Two words. You want two words, I'll give you two words. Kid and fresh.F Geyrhalter:That took some pondering.M Cohen:No, but really, I mean, it's really about kids' food. So it's really about children and making sure that they have foods that they like, but they also bring nutrition and taste and value. Right? And then fresh is really the freshness of our product, our ingredients. It's real chicken, it's real tomatoes. Everything is real and fresh. So yeah, kid and fresh.F Geyrhalter:Which I think is amazing after all those years, right? That it goes back right to that name, and that's why it's so crucial to get the name right in the beginning. Right? I mean, that is just so important.M Cohen:So crucial. Absolutely.F Geyrhalter:And something that was in the back of my mind entire time we were talking, and I think now is a good time to ask, obviously, what is so great about Kidfresh is that you're basically tricking these kids of eating mozzarella sticks with a dipping sauce but in reality, there's actually cauliflower in them as well. Right? You hide these vegetables in a smart way, so that kids actually eat healthy, but they feel like it's still fun, and it's still their kind of food. What happens at the time when the kids turn... I don't know, what age do they turn when they suddenly start realizing that they've been fooled all along?F Geyrhalter:And what happens? Is it a revolution?M Cohen:No, but we actually do not recommend to fool the kids. Right? We're sneaking vegetables, yes, but we want vegetables to be part of the conversation as opposed to not. So just to be able to say, "Hey, you like this chicken nugget? Well, hey, there's a little cauliflower that's mixed in. Let's have another one."F Geyrhalter:Yeah, yeah.M Cohen:We want to be honest and transparent. So, my hope is that when kids find out and realize that there's cauliflower or chickpea or butternut squash blended in the product, that they don't see it as a betrayal, but like as a [inaudible 00:22:05] why not actually, as an enhancement.F Geyrhalter:Right, right. And I mean, at that point, you already got them so hooked that they're fine with it anyways.M Cohen:Yeah, it's already too late. It's already too late.F Geyrhalter:It's too late. It's too late.M Cohen:They're going to try another chicken nugget and then they're going to come back to ours. F Geyrhalter:That's right. That's right. That's hilarious. Obviously you've made it as a founder of a very successful startup that's very purposeful. A lot of young founders are looking up to people like you who have achieved what you have achieved. Is there any brand advice that you want to give to kind of finish off our interview, just something that you've learned over the years where you would advise other founders as it relates to your brand, or even just regular entrepreneurial business advice where you say, "Look, here's something that I learned that I think I want to share with other entrepreneurs."?M Cohen:I would say, be patient and determined. It's a lot about being tenacious, fighting every day and believing into your product, into your brand, into your team and resources, being really steadfast into what you're doing. That would be my advice. Sometimes, slow and steady wins the race. We all want to go fast and be the next big thing overnight, well, in most cases it takes time, and that's okay.F Geyrhalter:I like that. I like that. Yeah, absolutely. So listeners who want to turn their kids into Kidfresh fanatics, where can they go? Where can they find your frozen treats?M Cohen:In most grocery stores throughout the nation from Vons in Southern California where you are to Walmart, Target, all the Kroger banners, Publix, Whole Foods, most retailers for the nation.F Geyrhalter:Can they order online too? Or are you in all retailers [crosstalk 00:24:25].M Cohen:Yes.F Geyrhalter:Okay. Okay.M Cohen:No, they can make an order at kidfresh.com or go to Amazon as well.F Geyrhalter:Perfect Matt. Well, listen, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. This was really educational and appreciate all your insights.M Cohen:Thank you Fabian and take care.F Geyrhalter:Absolutely, you too.

168: John Foley: Former Blue Angel Pilot, Keynote Speaker, High Performance Expert, Glad To Be Here Mindset, and Founder of John Foley Inc. talks about what it took for him to earn his place among the Blue Angels and flying a jet in the movie Top Gun, as well as what Glad To be Here is all about.    John Foley    How exactly did guest John Foley become a Blue Angel and what was his motivation? “Blue Angels are Navy fighter pilots. So, we come from the instructor ranks usually. Bottomline is, we fly jets off aircraft carriers. That was always my dream as a little boy. I remember, Mark, 12-years-old, my dad took me to an air show. Now I love my dad. He was my hero, right? He takes me to this air show. He was an army officer and an engineer. So I thought that is what I’m going to be in life. He takes me to this air show. I will never forget this day. I’m looking up in the sky, and I see these six magnificent blue jets. You know how you just feel it? You don’t just see them, you can feel it?” On this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, we talk with John Foley, Former Blue Angel Pilot, Keynote Speaker, High Performance Expert, Glad To Be Here Mindset, and Founder of John Foley Inc.,who talks about the path to becoming a Blue Angel and the qualifications. “First thing is. You’ve got to go to college, right, and there are different routes, ok? Because you need to become an officer and then get a pilot’s slot. There are a couple ways to do that. For me, I went to Naval Academy.”   What You Will Learn: What is the second step that got John Foley to Blue Angel status? “You go into flight training and you’ve got to do as well as you can and typically you are not sure which airplane you are going to fly. Blue Angels need to fly fighters or tactical aircrafts. You’ve got to get your butt in a tactical aircraft, an F-18, something like that. That is what I did. I actually flew a 7s off the carrier Enterprise. I flew in the movie Top Gun. Did you ever see the movie Top Gun? I did some of the real flying in that.” John Foley discusses the Fleet Replacement Squad. “You go fly jets off of aircraft carriers for about three years. That is the fleet. That is going out there doing the real thing. We have a saying, if you are still alive after three years, you have figured something. Out of that pool of people, then you usually go to the instructor ranks. So, you go to Top Gun. You go to what is called the Fleet Replacement Squad. That is where you train people, not how to fly but how to fight the airplane. That pool of people, those instructor ranks those people that are really doing the job in the fleet. They get to apply to become the Blue Angels, and it is a selection process and at the end of the day it takes about a year or two and the team picks its own replacements. It is one of the things in the entire Navy where the replacements are picked by the current team, not by Washington.” Did he every encounter anything where he had to eject or his teammates had to eject? “The good news for me is, I didn’t have to eject. But, three times I wanted to and I couldn’t, and what I mean by that is, there is an ejection environment which, which means you have to be at a certain altitude, a certain air speed. You don't want to be inverted 50 feet off of the ground. When you eject, you just become a dot. The thing is, you have to be in a certain envelope.”  Just how dangerous is being a Blue Angel?  “Priority is safety. As, you are looking at that and it is extremely safe what we do. I did that, ok. You are just on the edge. So when you are on the edge, and you know this in your life, you know this with climbing. Is climbing dangerous? The question I would ask you. How many people have died trying to do Everest, which you are going to do?. With your mind set on that, I guarantee it is the same flying the jet.” What does fear and uncertainty mean to John Foley? “I actually believe uncertainty has opportunity in it. On the same side of the coin, it has challenges in it. The first thing to address what is going on in the world today is, first off, compassion and awareness. There is some tough things out there. Black Lives Matter. You and I played ball. We know what it is like when you are a team, alright? You don’t know the color. I didn’t, of the skin of the person next to me. They were just a person. They were teammates.”   Things are Coming From You   Things are coming from you not at you. “If you think the world is coming at you, like COVID, and it is going to get you, you’ve got to deal with fear, ok. Because fear is an outside force coming at you that you don't have control over. Bingo. Right? So, what I try to do when I talk to the companies I speak with, the people I speak with is that we have to understand how we perceive. How does the mind perceive the outside world? First thing is, the truth is, it is coming from you. So you do have some power and some control.”    The Makings of a Great Leader During this episode of Finding Your Summit Podcast, John Foley also discusses the power of viewing things from other people’s points of view. “Instead of trying to be right, who cares about being right. Can I see the world through her eyes? If I can do that, it is actually called exchanging yourself for others, there is a technique on that, then you start to become more aware.”   Links to Additional Resources: Mark Pattison: markpattisonnfl.com Emilia’s Everest - The Lhotse Challenge: https://www.markpattisonnfl.com/philanthropy/ John Foley website: JohnFoley.com Glad To Be Here website: GladToBehere.com

With AI in Your Chips, Your Pics, and Your Clicks the Opportunities to Optimize Your Business Has Grown Dramatically. All right, so today it's AI in your chips, your picks in your clicks, how that's going to save your business? If you could use AI earlier in your business processes, would you do that to benefit your business? So recently I was looking at an interview that was between the CEO of Micron Technology and Adobe, the CEO of Adobe. And they were talking about how both of those companies were using AI. Now micron develops computer chips. Alright, so the things that make your your phones and your computers and other things run. So in fact, I think they're the only the only computer chip manufacturer in the United States actually, most are in Asia. All right, so they were talking about the use of AI and the micron team, who I actually have some friends over there, but the micron team is using AI that they talked about to detect anomalies and flaws in computer chip design, right? So I'm not talking about Pringles or Doritos or anything like that. What they do is they take pictures of these chips while you while they're being manufactured. And then they've trained Their AI to recognize flaws. Right? And of course, the earlier that the flaws are caught in the process than the less money it takes to correct those right to fix those. So I was thinking about that. And as long, you know, could I use a similar approach in my business information. So if I'm running a small to medium business, then the parallel would be if I analyze my business information sooner rather than later, then it has the potential of saving me tons of money, right allows me to stop doing the things that I shouldn't be doing, as well as to then emphasize those things that I should be doing. So I think there's money to me to be made with this pattern in chips, right? Meaning the pattern of applying it to your business information sooner rather than later. All right, let's talk about pics. Now. In this micron example, they're using pictures and images of pictures of course to analyze food For these defects, but what about pictures themselves? So we all have these cell phones, right? And and of course, as you probably know, there's more and more AI enabled apps for your camera on your phones, androids got a ton of them. And, and Apples got some as well. In fact, there's this report on Dignited.com that talks about some of the more recent AI camera apps that are out there. One of the things that's interesting about these is that once you point your camera in the right direction, the AI app takes over and automatically tweaks the settings behind the scenes for you. So, you know, even if you're not a camera nerd, it gets the right aperture, aperture settings, right? It puts in the, you know, takes into consideration the light and where it is, and does the adjustments for you. So, it also does a couple other things right? It will try to determine what the type of the scene is that it's looking at. So adjusting light, it'll do dynamic exposure, color adjustments, even slapping in some cool effects as well. It's kind of interesting. So when one of the things that I learned recently, I was talking to some successful business owners, and some entrepreneurs, and they shared that one of the key things that they did to grow their business was they documented their journey. And they did it using pictures. In fact, they say document your ascent. So the idea is that they take pictures along the way while they're building their business and they're growing their business and they're taking pictures of the good, the bad and the ugly, right? Things that are going well, things that are not going well Also, it turns out that those pictures later became real valuable assets to the organization. Right gave them a chance to look back. Understand The things that worked well, things that didn't wrap the stories around those. And ultimately, those stories with those pictures identified patterns that later other companies, other business owners, entrepreneurs are actually willing to pay for. So one of the things he can do with your pics is document the journey of your business and let this these AI apps help you identify patterns and help you to get the best pictures along the way. So one of the things I want to talk about here is what's one of the best ways to document your journey with your business? And part of that answer is, of course, not only with these pics that I'm talking about, but it's also with your business data. You know, there's some, obviously companies that are selling things online, right, some call it e commerce, whatever it might be, but any sort of selling online, you're in a great position to leverage AI because you're capturing a lot of history. A lot of data along the way. So there's a recent research article I was looking at from usmsystems.com they're talking about some success stories of AI in the e commerce industry. So that's companies that are selling retail online. And the it was noted that back in 2014, so where are we to was that six years ago, that the the online sales in terms of billions of dollars now these are us numbers, so that was $1.3 billion dollars, right? That's six years ago, in 2020. It's estimated to be around 4.1 billion Holy smokes. All right, so about four times as much by the end of 2021, will be around 4.8 billion. That's huge growth. In fact, as per some research reports, It's estimated that AI is going to start using a fire. If I'm reading the report, right, about 60% of e commerce will be using AI. Now if you're doing some e commerce, meaning if you're selling anything online and you're not leveraging AI, that's obviously something that you really need to look seriously at. There is a study by PwC PricewaterhouseCoopers. They identified that the AI usage will increase the global GDP by 14% by the year 2030. I've mentioned that report before. That's huge right? Now the real trick is, are you leveraging AI for your business now let's take a look at some examples here. This is from a one particular research article from usmsystems.com ready, but back in 2006, Burberry company adopted AI now when I Think back about that. I think earlier my career, you know, the the use of AI was not huge course my career started way before 2006. But in any event, still, you know 2006 leveraging AI that was for this select few for sure. All right now and then even they started back then Burberry did right of all companies and they were an early adopter of this. And then they've, they've estimated that by 2025, that about 20% of their luxury Sales are expected to take place online. Now, what's interesting about this is that, you know, they go after a luxury clientele, which typically is focusing on a face to face sort of sales experience, but for them to say, Hey, you know, in the next few years, we expect 20% of our revenue to actually come from that that's a huge statement, and they're leveraging AI to help them do that. McKinsey has a really powerful consulting organization said about 80% of luxury sales are influenced by online e-commerce stores, which is kind of interesting. So in other words, it just the fact that you're online and you're selling things online that actually influences luxury sales. So that's that's huge, huge impact. Turns out Burberry Burberry and I can say it has been using RFID tags I don't know if you know what those are, most do. They're using it to track and collect data about how customers interact in their stores. And then they collect that data both how they're interacting customer activity online, as well as past orders. And then they do a bunch of sales analytics with AI. You know if you're doing anything online, Oh, did I already say this? Start start point some AI right, even Burberry started figuring that a long time ago. Here's another one stitch fit. Stitch Fix. Wow, say that five times fast. So they again, use AI to streamline both their logistics and their operations, again, they're doing this with their online business, but they use it ultimately to figure out what's the right place for locations of warehouse and you know, where it's closest to cus consumers locations and things like that. All right, let's look at another one that we all know Starbucks. They introduced a virtual assistant to help customers order coffee online, right? And you can do it through their voice or text. There's some AI in there to do that. But they end up connecting it to then your activities when you're actually at the store itself. So when you enter the store, the barista can then retrieve that information and place an order that ultimately lines up with your previous purchase history. So they've got a whole bunch of capabilities now with Alexa. Right? So they're listening to that. In the end, they're collecting data with every time we touch their company, and then they use that data and AI to them. Figure out, right? What's the right way to approach this particular customer? Let me mention one more. So this is Domino's Pizza. And of course, they've been selling about 55% or more of their pizza online now, right, which is kind of huge for pizza group, right? When you think about that. Now, what they do is they take the data that's been collected, and they derive a whole bunch of insights on who's the person in that household that tends to buy the most, what is it? You know, what are the ingredients that they put on the recipe, or excuse me, on the pizza, and so forth. It also helps them to generate unique coupons for that person, right at the moment that it's interacting with you. Anyway, tons of AI involved in that the common thread is at every touchpoint that you have, either in terms of preparing to talk with your customer or in interacting with your customer meaning think about going from the ads all the way through to The customer interacting with you online. And then and then even afterwards in support mode, you capture lots of data, that data then translates into a mountain load of business information that AI can harvest from. So therefore what you know, what does this mean to your small to medium business? Well, number one, be diligent about leveraging AI to expose the good and of course the not so good. And do it early in the process kind of like what micron does right early in their quote unquote manufacturing process. So think about it early in your business processes. capture as much as you can and get started evaluating your your data use an AI number to document your journey as a business AI camera detection will actually help you with this journey. It actually turns out to be a real moneymaker for you too in the future. And then number three, of course, like the online e commerce companies that had mentioned, start analyzing Your Business Information now be intentional about your AI strategy down the road, you'll start applying multiple AI techniques over and over again, right? I mean, when you started shopping a Domino's Pizza 1015, whatever, 20 years ago, no, no AI was involved at that point right? Now today they use it in a ton of scenarios. And you keep thinking, Oh, this is just about pizza. It's about business information to help serve the customer. Alright, thanks for joining and until next time, get started on your AI journey. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your FREE eBook, visit ClickAIRadio.com now.

When it comes to YOUR BUSINESS...Optimize, Transform, or Become IRRELEVANT!! The technology and business climate have changed; at one point it was more costly to apply AI to Your Business. However, today it is MORE COSTLY to NOT APPLY AI to your business to help you pivot and succeed with your Business. Hey, this Grant thank you for joining another episode of ClickAI Radio. Okay, so today we're talking about optimizing transforming or becoming irrelevant. I think those are three Critical choices that we have for our businesses. You know, it seems that if we adapt our business to changing conditions, then we tend to maintain our relevance. I've been involved with four startup companies over the years, the first startup company was right out of Chicago, excuse me, right out of college, my wife and I loaded our brand new baby up and moved to Chicago. We were developing solutions for healthcare organizations. We couldn't quite pivot that one fast enough to keep up with need. So very important lesson learned. Then years later, I got involved with another startup company that I helped develop this one was in Silicon Valley, and the focus there was on providing tools for software engineers. And then the third startup company, again was in the software engineering space. We have offices in Washington, DC and in Denver. And again, we're focusing on project providing solutions for companies that were developing their own technologies. And then in the fourth startup company, again, very similar in the space in terms of it was in the software engineering space. Again, this one is in Silicon Valley, providing tools for large companies. So, of those four, three of them, we, we sold off and that that was a journey in and of itself. But the lesson on each of these was the need to adapt constantly to be ever aware of the changing macro market conditions, other new technologies coming in shifting needs of your customers and the expectations from them. So here I was looking at some examples of companies that did not adapt and these are all ones that you're familiar with right blockbuster we all know the story of blockbuster right ceased operations in 2013. You know, the senior executives as I understand it, understand it were given some opportunities to adopt online streaming, but they ended up deciding against it. But we know what's happened to them now, certainly there's other organizations that aren't around a day like toys r us, right? They see stop operations in April of 2018. One of the challenges they had was they overextended on their properties on the real estate and didn't create new customer experiences. That's that's a no no for us, right. The other hair example is around borders, bookstores. We know they ceased operations quite some time ago back in 2009. But fierce competition from supermarkets, online sales, right, digital books, I mean, can you say Amazon, right? So the critical news here is optimized transform or certainly become irrelevant. So there are multiple ways as we know to adapt your business right? The focus is to serve your customers to live another day. Right. And one way to do that is through business optimization. And the other is through business transformation. So I want to talk about those and separate those. But what is optimization? When you're going to optimize a business? What does that mean to do that? Here's one potential definition of it. It's when we focus on business performance, right? We want to keep the lights on. Obviously, we're focusing on delivering projects and achieving some repeatability and scalability. So when we have a business model that's operating Well, it's still meeting those customer needs. But we're looking to improve performance and getting efficiencies out of the business. That is an opportunity for optimization. Now, when you think about some of the businesses I'd mentioned a moment ago, all right. Would optimizing their business have saved them? Well, I don't know. Maybe in some cases it might have or might have lengthened out the amount of time perhaps they might have had. But optimization is focused on the current business model that you're working with right and improving efficiencies. Now, one of the thing is your business might be in the state of needing optimization. And it turns out artificial intelligence can really help with this, right? It can look at the business information that you have in your current business model, and identify patterns and probable future behaviors. Right. So the question is, what is the state of your business? Is this an opportunity for optimization? Are you looking to optimize refund reduction or sales growth or lead identification? If so, AI can help with things like that as well as certainly other areas. All right. So the first question is optimization. It can really help a business become and maintain its relevant, its relevance. Alright, let's talk about the other flavor. And that's transformation. So what does it mean to transform a business. As you know, it typically means to focus on new business capabilities. Now, it may be done within the current business model. So if you're if you have a business, you have an existing business model, but you want to add new business capabilities, they may take the form of new products, right or new services within your current business model. Now, it generally translates into doing some innovative work. So to transform a business means you got to do some innovation, right got to sort of break the chains of how you've been doing things in the past, it might still be in the realm of your current business model. Sometimes though, you're innovating to react to market pressures, right? or other times you're leapfrogging your competition. However, transformation, as you know, can also mean a new business model. So it's a new way to do things. Now. Let's think about it. What are some companies that you know, that have developed the art and science of transformation right? Let's think about that. Obviously, one that sure comes to everyone's mind is Netflix. They certainly started with shipping DVDs, right? And then then they move to digital streaming. That's a new business model, right? And of course, now today, they produce movies. So this is really an example of what we call vertical integration, right? Where they end up owning everything from top to bottom. They, they not only stream the content, but they actually produce it now. Right? So to vertically integrate your business. That's a big deal, right. So Netflix has been applying AI to help them transform their business model, right, going from GM shipping DVD all the way over to Holy smokes. I'm actually producing the content that I'm shipping to people. Here's some examples, right that they've done this. I found this in one report not too long ago on becoming human.ai. How's that for the name of a website? All right. This is some things that they had identified that Netflix had done with AI to help them transform one of those around personalization of movie recommendations. Now, if you've ever used Netflix, you obviously can see how that affects you, right? Because it starts to see and figure out what it is that you're interested in. Here's another use of AI. It's around the auto generalization and personalization of thumbnails. So when you're actually scrolling through Netflix, it looks at and figures out, this particular thumbnail would be more interesting for grant and therefore have a higher probability that he'll click on this movie. Interesting, right? Here's another AI use and it's around the location scouting for movie production. Right? You got to figure out Hey, you, you know you're gonna look at costs and expenses and weather, all sorts of things to help them figure out the right locations for producing their movies. And then there's movie editing AI actually gets involved with identifying those hype. Probability times are places where human reviews or involvement should be participating. Now, you know, that's, that can be very costly, right? So you're going to want to be able to take advantage of that. Here's one more I'll mention. And that's of course, around streaming quality. None of us want to have our movie interrupted, heaven forbid, when we're watching something. And so they've got AI that looks at server bandwidth. And if you're a nerd, you're going, you're shaking your head, like oh, yeah, regret In any event, server bandwidth, right? The ability for a server to keep up with the demand that's on it. All right. So that's Netflix, right? Lots of AI for transforming your business. Okay, so so far I've mentioned, look, you can use AI in optimization activities where you're trying to get improvement in efficiencies. Those are very optimization centric, but certainly, hey, things going on with COVID and other competitive pressures. I may have to transform my business and actually take on new new products and services. So AI can certainly participate in helping with that. Here's another example. McDonald's, they're starting to use AI in their ordering process. Right? So hey, would you like some fries with that? So Mickey D's is actually using AI to try to predict your answer. Now, the impact of that is, is that then they can train, you know, downstream or I should say, upstream look for inventory planning and things like that. So the prediction of would you like fries? And the answer to that certainly impacts their supply chain so they can stock and doing Tori accordingly. They have a new lab called McD tech labs. It's no it's not that new, but it's called McD tech labs anyway, they're applying a lot AI. So whether you're working with hamburgers, or whether you're streaming video, ai gets involved in both optimization, as well as transformation activities of your business. So here's the question. question, what's your objective? Right? First, you have to decide in what manner you are either going to maintain or grow your business. And if you're going to focus on optimizing your business, look at the current processes and apply AI to uncover insights. It takes iteration you can't apply AI one time and make some adjustments and be done. You actually apply it over and over again, because you're changing history and therefore your business information and your data footprint. So you got to do it multiple times over a sustained period of time. If you're going to focus on business transformation, then you know, perhaps it's a new product or service or maybe even a new business model, think Netflix right like going from shipping DVDs to to actual digital streaming, then leverage AI to produce as many insights to the relevance and the value of the target product or service. So moving forward today, you know in business without applying any is actually a costly decision. There is one point in the growth and maturation of AI. And of course, we have a long ways to go for AI to get obviously even more more useful and more relevant. But nevertheless, there's a point where it was so costly to do AI, it was hard to justify. We've we've tipped that now right now we're working on the democratization of AI, for small to medium business environments. That's my mission to help you do that. And that is actually very cost efficient. So to move forward in your business direction, without including AI, that's actually the more costly thing. So don't do that. What you rather do is you get involved with applying AI to help your decision making and shine the light on all of the secrets that are available to you that are in your business information. Now, it may mean that if you don't do that, then you might end up on the endangered species list writer perhaps become extinct as a business like those three that mentioned before, right blockbuster obviously, didn't pivot, right didn't keep moving forward with it. Hey, I really appreciate your time. Thanks for joining and until next time, pick your business route to apply AI, whether it's optimization or transformation. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your FREE eBook visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

On the nineteenth entry of our See It to Be It podcast series, Amy C. Waninger speaks with Sha'Ron James, an insurance professional with nearly two decades of experience providing forward thinking, strategic and regulatory advice to clients on a number of business and economic development matters. Sha'Ron talks a bit about her unique role as an insurance regulator, her career journey up to this point, and offers some advice for people who are interested in making the jump into the insurance industry.Click here to sign up for The Access Point! Our first live interactive weekly webinar takes place September 15th at 7pm CST.Connect with Sha'Ron on LinkedIn and Twitter.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTAmy: Sha'Ron, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?Sha'Ron: I'm great. Thank you for having me.Amy: I am so excited to talk to you today because you have a job that most people don't even know exists. So just, yeah, tell us about what it is, your role in the insurance industry.Sha'Ron: Well, Amy, my role in the insurance industry I think is somewhat unique in that I spent the past decade or so as an insurance regulator. And so as an insurance regulator, I was responsible for ensuring that insurance companies maintain the promise that they make to policy holders. And I did that in two different roles that I can share a little bit more about. But just again, in its most basic form as a regulator, I was responsible for ensuring that insurance companies maintain their promise to policy holders.Amy: And that means a couple of different things, right? Because it means on the one hand that they're not denying claims that they should be paying. Absolutely. But on the other hand, it also means that you have a hand in making thing, making sure that these companies are holding enough money back in reserve so that they're going to be around long enough to pay the claims. So can you talk a little bit about what that means?Sha'Ron: Yes. So during my time in state government in the state of Florida was with the Department of Financial Services. In other parts of the country it's different offices of insurance regulation. So I held two roles. Both of them were somewhat unique, but played a really important role in ensuring, again, that that promise was kept. So I spent about six years as the director of the division of rehabilitation and liquidation, which is the division within state government that takes over insurance companies that become financially insolvent. So when our insurance commissioner determines that an insurance company doesn't have the financial wherewithal to pay the claims as they become due, that referral was then made to my division, and I led a team of about 120 people that would oversee the takeover of an insurance carrier. We would run off the claims and transition policy holders to more vibrant financially solvent insurance companies. And then we would also sue to recover assets so that those claims could be paid. That was a pretty fascinating role. Really exciting at times, but also somewhat disheartening because there are times when insurance companies aren't able to make good on their promise, and so policy holders are sometimes left holding the bag with unpaid claims and unfulfilled promises. And so it was a very delicate balance to be able to take care of the policy holder while at the same time essentially shut down an active insurance company.Amy: And so for people not in the industry, not in the insurance industry, I think it's important to understand, you know, the, the, the insurance companies make a promise to pay at some point in the future, but they take your premiums up front, right? So you are paying for that promise and it's up to regulators like yourself to make sure that, you know, if you have a long-tail policy, like I think, you know, probably the most common example is, you know, asbestos claims, right? This right, we have people going into buildings, you know, tearing down buildings. We have policies around, you know, their health and safety working for us. And 20 years from now those employees develop lung cancer because they were working with asbestos. Those employees then go to the insurer to collect for medical bills, for pain and suffering. And it's not just that the employer needs to be there to help handle that, but their insurance company is really the backstop for those lawsuits. So if they've invested with an insurance company that's not around 20 years down the road, these folks, these workers then have, are going to struggle to pay their hospital bills. They're going to struggle to be compensated for the damage that their employers caused them. Is that a good summary?Sha'Ron: That's a great summary. And another example that we have run into is in long-term care insurance where again as you mentioned, policyholders are paying premiums for years. And even in the basic, you know, life context, you're paying policy premiums for years in the hope that when there's a trigger, when something happens in life, the life context, if you pass away or are in a long-term care situation, if you have you know, something, a health episode that triggered you using your long-term care insurance, the hope is that that carrier is going to be there and will make good on that. There's also a hope that over time your premiums will not significantly swing, meaning that you may be paying $20 a month and you're told you'll be paying $20 a month for, you know, the next 20 years. But then 10 years in you find out, "Oh, the insurance company needs more money." Now you have to pay $120. And so in other role as a regulator I served as the state insurance consumer advocate. And Florida has a pretty unique position in that--and other states don't have this, but the state insurance consumer advocate represents the insurance buying public in rate cases and in rate hearings. So if a company is looking to increase their rates or introduce new products into the marketplace, I was responsible for weighing in on whether or not that was a good product or a good rate for consumers. And so again, that also was a really interesting perspective given the landscape of the industry, which you and I know, Amy, is really vast and really complex, and so I was grateful to be able to see the industry from both contexts.Amy: And I think that's an interesting perspective too because there's a balancing act there for people who are unfamiliar with this is you want the insurers to get enough of a rate, right? Enough premium to remain solvent, to pay all of their claims to do all of the work that they need to do. Right? So they have to have enough money coming in, but on the flip of that coin, you don't want them to have rates that are so high that they're gouging their policyholders.Sha'Ron: Absolutely. Rates cannot be excessive. And they have to be justified and they can't be discriminatory. And so those terms to a lay person seem pretty simple, excessive, you know, fair. Non-discriminatory, but all of those terms that make up how a regulator evaluates a rate- in reality, it's really complicated. And again, there are a lot of people, in terms of the team, that really participate in that analysis. So you have an actuary, you have lawyers, you have analysts. And there are so many factors that go into whether or not the rate can be justified. And so again, like you said, you want to make sure that the rate is adequate so that insurance companies have enough money to pay the claims, but you want to make sure that policy holders aren't being treated unfairly, being charged too much, or, in the context of issues about discriminatory rates, you want to make sure that insurance companies aren't taking certain risk factors and kind of extrapolating that risk factor across a broad swath of people. So when you look at zip coding, you look at, you know, race, ethnicity, geography, age, you want to make sure again, that large groups of policy holders aren't being treated unfairly based upon certain certain rating factors, Amy: Right. Because insurance is all about discrimination, right? In the purest sense of the word, right? Higher risk individuals, companies should pay higher premiums because they're more likely to have a claim or to cause a claim. But then, you know, again, there's this balancing act, because in the United States we know that, you know, you can pretty much use zip code as a proxy for race. So, you know, when an insurer says, "Where's the zip code where your car is parked at night," right? You have to make sure that that's really relevant to the property risk of the car and not "We're charging black customers more."Sha'Ron: Absolutely. Absolutely, and similar conversations take place around data and insurance companies' use of, you know, what we call big data and how they capture data and use data for policy holders. So again, all of this is just really to me, very fascinating and very impactful. So again, as you look at the broadness of the industry, the role of a regulator is very important, and it's sometimes often missed when we talk about insurance professionals. Amy: Absolutely. And so that leads me to my next question, which is how did you get into this role? Because I'm guessing this wasn't something that you thought about, you know, when you were in high school or college and said, "Oh, someday I'm going to regulate insurance in Florida," which might be the most complicated job in the world by the way, because Florida has the most regulations of any state.Sha'Ron: Absolutely, and the most risk.Amy: How did you find yourself in that role?Sha'Ron: It was an interesting path, and I think, like most of my fellow insurance professionals that I have relationships with and I've talked with, it wasn't a direct path. It wasn't something that I dreamed about. So I am a lawyer by trade and training, and so I was practicing law with a firm and my practice was primarily--it started as primarily a real estate transactional practice during the height of the real estate market. So I was doing real estate closings and litigation, and my practice shifted away from real estate transactional practice to more of a bankruptcy practice. Because a lot of developers, contractors, banks were--people, you know, just in general were being hit hard when the bubble burst. So my practice in law shifted to bankruptcy, and an opportunity became available in state government to become a part of the division I mentioned, the division of rehab and liquidation, which really is akin to bankruptcy. Essentially it is placing an insurance company into quote-unquote bankruptcy, and because of how companies are regulated--they're regulated at the state level versus the federal level, and so the state oversees that, the takedown, and the unwinding of an insurance company. So my bankruptcy background and my legal background I think was very important in me landing this new role. And also, you know, frankly it was good for me in terms of work-life balance because at that time I had a new child. My daughter's 12 now. It was a good fit to move from the pressure cooker environment of being in litigation to what I consider a more balanced environment for my family.Amy: I think that's such a great story. And you know, like you said, so many people end up in the insurance industry just by happenstance. What surprised you about the industry or about the role that you were in that you did not expect coming into it? Sha'Ron: I really didn't expect to fall in love with insurance like I have. Amy: I understand. [laughs]Sha'Ron: You know, it's kinda like, I just didn't know enough about it and what I knew about it just didn't seem or sound as we say it, you know, it didn't sound sexy. It didn't sound like something that I would want to be involved in for ever. So I was really surprised by that, and once I got involved--and one of the reasons why I didn't think I would enjoy it as much is I really didn't understand the fact that insurance as an industry is a people-oriented industry. It touches people. And so one of the things outside of, you know, my practice of law is that I'm really passionate about being impactful, really passionate about people, and so I always thought that I can only impact people in the social kind of policy context. So education, criminal justice, you know, I had no idea that this industry was out here that is regulated business, but also impactful towards people. So that's surprised me. And once I really realized and found my niche it's been, you know, me in the industry ever since and I'm really committed to making it the best possible industry it can be, not just for policyholders but for insurance professionals as well.Amy: And you raise such an awesome point, because so many people have this call, right? They want to follow their heart and do something good for their communities, good for the world, and they think in their minds--and I know I felt like this too--that to do something good for the world you have to live on, you know, a very paltry salary. You have to have very little means, right? You know, I know so many people that go into social work because that's where their heart is, and there's nothing at all wrong with that, but by the time you've got a master's degree and now you're making just above minimum wage, right, and you're paying off student loan debt, like, that's a big financial hit. I think it's so important for people to realize you can do a lot of good in the insurance industry but also have a middle class income that's sustainable for your entire career.Sha'Ron: Absolutely. And I'll give you an example, and it really kind of I think illustrates--as you mentioned earlier, the role that Florida plays in insurance, Florida is a high-risk state because of our prevalence for catastrophic hurricanes. And so a couple of years ago in my role as insurance consumer advocate, I had the opportunity unfortunately to be involved in the post-hurricane climate that we were in as a state. And so one day I got a call from a woman who said that her parents who were in their 90s were in their home when one of the hurricanes came through and a tree fell on their house. The great thing was they were not harmed, but the insurance company did not want to total loss the home, although the house had actually moved. And you know, this can get real technical and geeky, but the point is that, you know, I was able to weigh in in my role as insurance consumer advocate and assist them and kind of mediate between them and then the insurance company, educate the policy holder on, you know, things in their policy, but at the same time weigh in with the carrier that, you know, these folks are in their 90s. These are factors that aren't in the policy. They're in their 90s, and, you know, they're good people and it will be a great thing to do. And so I was able to help. And so that's an example of, because of my knowledge of insurance, my knowledge of insurance policies, my relationships in the industry, how something--what I thought was technical and boring term turned into an opportunity to help and to serve. And I think that's really important.

What can AI do to help small businesses with so many business failures taking place with COVID-19? There are plenty of stats around that quantify the number of businesses dropping. Understanding these stats is useful, but, it leaves us to ask: Therefore What? Therefore, what can AI do to help the business owner mount a massive plan to rebuild, and pursue the business vision that was once your?? Hey, welcome everybody. This is Grant thank you for joining another episode of ClickAI Radio. All right, so been thinking again, still this is really part two of AI combating COVID when you when you think about all of the all of the carnage, if you will, in terms of the impact of businesses, definitely the impact to human life has been horrific. But also the impact to the businesses as well. And all the people's lives affected by that. You start asking the question least I have, I've been thinking, what can I do to help small businesses with so many business failures taking place? due to COVID-19? Oh, here we are in the first of September, and we've got lots of credit, potential downstream problems coming to us. There are plenty of stats around we're going to take a look at some of those that quantify the number of businesses that have been dropping that have been falling by the wayside. Understanding the stats, I believe is useful. But it also leaves me to ask therefore what they're For what can I do? What can I do? What can I do with AI, as a business owner to mount a massive plan, to rebuild and to pursue the business vision that was once yours? What are the things that we could do? So I don't want to just focus on here's all of the negative things happening. It's important for us to understand what's happening. But we also want to pivot forward and look to the future and say, therefore, what can I do to regrow and regroup from this. So first part, let's take a look at some of the stats going on. First one comes from Bloomberg, this is a report that came out is around the end of July, so it's about a month old. It indicated they actually were referencing Yelp. And with Yelp, they had shown that that there was more than 80,000 companies that had permanently shut down now that was during the period of March 1 to July 25. Have those 60,000 more local businesses, meaning they have fewer than five locations, about 800 of the small businesses filed for Chapter 11. Interestingly, there's a fair number that did not file for chapter 11. That's that's another another conversation. In any event, that that amount right there is up about 30% or more from last year during the same period of time. So that's a big number. That's a big shift. Let's look at another stat here. It says, you know, while the businesses you know, these small businesses are having these challenges, the firm's with fewer than 500 employees, and up accounting for about 45% of the US economic activity. That's quite a bit when you think about it. Almost half of all American workers come through these small to medium businesses. And here's another stat also from Bloomberg. It said hey, in June of 2020, there is a survey that showed that 31% of owners reported lower sales in the past three months, while 7% reported higher sales a year earlier. All right, you kind of expected that. All right. In the same survey, though only 13% of business owners said it was a good time to expand. Right? That's a dip from 24% a year earlier. Alright, so fewer thinking, Hey, I'm thinking bullish about business right now. So that's not that's not too surprising. There's some interesting stats in terms of the businesses that have had impact, you know, largest impact, no surprise here, the restaurant sector took the biggest hit right there. Retail and shopping was the next largest beauty and then automotive and then down into event planning and that order in terms of order of of impact or level of impact, I should say. All right, that was from Bloomberg case. So that's one view of the impact of the small businesses end Jump over here. There's another report from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. And they just quickly they pointed out about 50% of small businesses have one to two months of cash available. There were some other stats to it came down to it was around 15% or so had three to six months of cash available. So cash is king, and boy if there's no cash coming in, and that's all we've got in terms of our runway, that creates, obviously a massive problem. So that's another issue. Of course, the question that leads me to think is, is there cash in the business that we're not getting access to? And I actually believe there is I believe that AI from my experience, we can use it to help us discover cash that's available. I'll talk about that in a bit. here's, here's the third area, a third report from CNBC. That came out in the end of June. Talking about the amount of help that small business owners had gained the the payment protection pro met or excuse me the paycheck Protection Program and the economic injury disaster loan program. All right, those aren't easy to say, not easy to roll out anyway, they, they gave out nearly $630 billion in funding. And about one fourth of the small businesses that receive that funding are already considered or considering closing their doors. And of course, the question that comes up is, gee, how do I pay back? Right? And what's the implications? Right, will there be forgiveness if I do close my doors? That's a whole other topic as well want to shift the thinking? So that's a dark picture, right? But I believe that there's a bright future ahead of us as a people. And with that, I want to talk about some techniques where we see AI being used To combat COVID itself, and then we'll shift another segment as well. But just briefly in this segment, ai combatting COVID this particularly comes from a report focusing on Asia, right? And so what are different countries in Asia doing so there's Mainland China, Hong Kong, Taiwan and South Korea, in this report. In this report, it pointed out the following places where they are gathering data, and that data is being used then for AI purposes. So I'll break this into piece first, where are they collecting the information or the data? Alright, so between those different countries, they're collecting it from places such as transportation systems, Immigration and Customs databases, obviously the COVID-19 databases so healthcare data, so multiple countries are using that data, mobile data, mobile technologies Right social media, credit card transactions, closed circuit television. So you know, security cameras, GPS on the car, and then wearable tracking devices. All right, so those that there was like eight or nine different locations, and you start thinking, Wait, what's the connection between that data and COVID and and something to help me address COVID related scenarios. So I'll just call out a couple of the so one of them is an AI based tool that facilitates targeting lockdown and reopening, right so in other words, it monitors where a person should be right of course, there's different cultures and and government policies. I'm not here to comment on those, but in any event, so using some of those trackable device data or mobile data, etc. If you're classified as a you know, you've got COVID then you are asked to stay within certain location. And there's some AI helping to monitor that. There's other AI based tools in these countries being used to enable quick diagnosis and classification of patients, right. And we've seen some things. Yeah, here in the US. Some organizations doing some things like that. I'll mention one here in just a moment. And so that's a critical way and unnecessary way to use AI. All in all, there's some strict home quarantines for those that have COVID in those countries. And as a result, use of this data across all these different data sources that I had mentioned, are being applied. All right. So that's AI combating COVID nasia capturing a two part sort of a social cultural use of AI Hey, stay where you should. And then there's there's the approach that says, hey, we're gonna actually gonna try to diagnose, diagnose you better with that. All right. Talk about here in the US So, and I h launched a medical imaging technology using AI to fight code. This came out in the health analytics.com report. So the NIH rolled this out not too long ago, here comes a big acronym am idrc. So that's medical imaging and data Resource Center, what they're doing is they're utilizing AI, medical imaging, to course look for those assessment opportunities. And earlier that they can assess it, then then the better. Of course, they have the opportunity to help the patient with that. So they're gathering large repositories of COVID-19 chest images, and the idea there are courses. It allows the researchers to ask critical questions, and then ultimately to develop what the appropriate next steps are for the people. So that's a cool way to use AI, obviously to help people's lives. So the question is Therefore what? Right? So if you're a small to medium business owner, if you're an entrepreneur, you try to make it through this tenuous time where there's lots of companies that have been dramatically impacted negatively in lots of people's lives who have gotten sick with this. Therefore, what does this mean to your business? So as a business owner, we need to at times, think as a researcher, right? We need to look for ways to evaluate your business data. How will you evaluate your business data? So just as those COVID researchers are certainly evaluating tissue data and asking critical questions? What business data will you evaluate? What questions do you have about your business now what this means to your business is that you should run some AI predictive analysis on your business information. In other words, turn your data upside down, inside out, look for the successful patterns that built your business. Many of them you know cognitively or empirically In other cases, you won't know them, right. And we want AI to be able to highlight those and make you aware of those. And just as it's important to understand what the positive patterns have been, also look for patterns that created negative growth, right? And the sooner you can discover them, stop doing them. Right. And so AI, there are some that you already know you don't need AI to tell you. But there are others where there are times where AI points out interesting patterns or behaviors, and you need to be apprised of those and stop bleeding cash in that happens. So if you want to learn how to do this, subscribe to the channel. Reach out to me, we'll have a conversation and we can help you get started with this. Don't forget the purpose, the mission and the vision for why you started your business. Hey, thanks for joining looking forward to speaking with you again. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your FREE eBook visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

Sign up for the Bright Future Method Workshop Waitlist here Sign up for email reminders here Join the Insider's Telegram Channel Here Transcript: One of the biggest things that sets bright entrepreneurs apart from all the other entrepreneurs out there is where they place their focus. Once you've grown a successful business and you have learned what's important. And what isn't you realize that many of the things that you focused on when you were first starting out or really getting into growing your business? [00:00:25]Really was the wrong place to put your energy and that a lot of it didn't actually matter. So in today's episode, I want to talk about that difference. What should you be focusing on if you really want to be a successful, bright entrepreneur and what should you be spending less energy on? If you are feeling stuck and are really struggling to grow. [00:00:51] So that's what we're going to tackle today in the bright entrepreneur podcast. So I've a lot about my bright future method workshop and the launch that I have coming up for it. And I've been struggling a little bit with the positioning of it because frankly it's a high level strategy. Course that really gives people the big picture of what they need to do, help a client go from connecting with their content, to connecting with you as an entrepreneur and a person to connecting with each other in your community, and then connecting to your deeper purpose and really wanting to take it out into the world. [00:01:59] And it's a beautiful system and the strategy is lovely and there's a lot of different ways you can customize it to really fit who you are, but it's a lot harder to. Explain and to come up with a clear promise for it, then say something like tribe, which is my friend Stu McLaren's course, where you are going to learn how to create recurring revenue in your business with a membership site. [00:02:26]That's a really clear and easy promise. You know, that once you go through it, you're going to come out with this ability to create recurring revenue. And he's going to give you all the strategies for that. It's brilliant. It's really good. Right. But I know that something that's going to help my business grow is really getting super clear on what that promise is and I'm working on it. [00:02:47] You know, I know the more that I explain it, the more I kind of fumble through what it is and talk about it, the easier it's going to be. Be to get clarity around what messaging actually works. [00:02:59] As I was thinking about this, it occurred to me that there's actually three different levels of things that people tend to focus on and these things shift over time. Right? So the very first thing that people start to focus on when they're starting their online business and they're just getting going, and they're very uncertain of themselves. [00:03:19] Is on what tools and resources do they need to have in order to really get their business off the ground. So I know for me personally, I spent a ton of time researching the different email options out there I remember researching all the different options out there and taking way too much time. [00:03:42] To really make a decision. And it felt like a lot of pressure because I knew that it was hard to move an email list, although it's not impossible by the way. , and I just felt like whatever I picked, I had to be married to for the rest of my business career, which also is not true. And I really think what happened was I was afraid to make the wrong decision. [00:04:04] I was afraid that I wouldn't know enough to make the right decision. And my lack of clarity on which one was best in my hyper-focus on trying to pick the very best thing for me was more a reflection of my own insecurities and fears. Then it was me really needing to make sure that I had the right things, because I thought if I picked the wrong tool, then everything was doomed to fail. [00:04:30] Well, spoiler alert. That's not the case. You can always switch if you want to. It might not be easy, but it's definitely not impossible. And honestly, no software or tool or resource out there is absolutely perfect. So you shouldn't be worried about picking the absolute perfect thing. Ever, yes, some tools are better than others, but even the best tools have their quirks. [00:04:55]Then as I continued to grow my business, I realized that the tools that I picked didn't matter nearly as much, but now my focus shifted to the tactics that I need need to be using, you know, should I podcast, should I be on Facebook? [00:05:12] Should I be running ads? Should I do a quiz? Should I run a challenge? Should I do PLF videos from Jeff Walker or what should I be doing? What's the next tactic that I can use in my business to try and get clients to grow my email list, to grow my social media accounts, all of the things, right. Everything focused on various tactics. Now this is where I see most of the educational resources. [00:05:41] In the marketplace landing, there are courses on how to create a quiz funnel. There are courses on how to make courses. In fact, there's several of those. There are courses on how to do Instagram stories and how to grow on tick talk and how to do all the various things, but almost all of them. [00:06:01] These courses are a single tactic and not taught as part of a larger. Strategy, they show the little picture, grow things, but they don't show how they should intentionally fit into a big picture and how every little piece and tactic should help each other. I mean, What's the point of having a massive tick tock following, if you can't actually convert them into buying clients and why should you be there if your clients aren't there or whatever it is, right. [00:06:36] That's just an easy example to show. And so what I did, and I'm, I'm totally guilty of this. So I'm explaining this is, this is all me. Is I bought so many courses and I bought so many products and I have literally tried almost all of them, things that I mentioned here, except the tick tock stuff. But every other thing that I have mentioned, I have bought a course on, I have learned how to do I have implemented it in my business. [00:07:07] Oh, webinars. I didn't even talk about webinars. Evergreen funnels and, Oh my gosh. So many things, email strategy, what you should put in your email content SEO stuff. I mean, I would bet that I have spent close to a quarter million dollars or more. On education since I started in 2001, I bet it's a lot more than that. [00:07:29] If I'm honest, that's just a really conservative estimate and it's really good to learn these things. I'm not gonna lie. Like those, those things have all been insane, really helpful. But what would happen was that I would take it of course and learn a tactic and then I'd implement the tactic in my business. [00:07:48] And I get maybe some level of success, maybe not. But what I found was eventually, and this was in my first business. Everything was kind of disjointed. It was like I was throwing stuff spaghetti against the wall and hoping that something stuck and maybe it'll stick a little, but then I'd see another chorus with another way of doing things. [00:08:09] And I think, Oh, maybe that's what I'm missing. Maybe that's the piece. That's, we're gonna make it all come together and help me overcome that 200 to $300,000 a year. Mark. I was kinda stuck there for a little bit. And so, you know, I got all excited and I try this new thing and, you know, I'd implemented in my business and I'm not going to say that they weren't helpful. [00:08:29] I definitely learned a ton of different things, but the biggest thing I learned through doing all of those different methods is that honestly, They all going to work, but nothing, all of them were like a, hit it out of the park home run for me until I retire. I really sat down and I slowed down and I stepped back and I started to focus on the big picture strategy of how it. [00:08:57] All worked together and how every piece helped my clients go through personal transformation. Okay. So this is the big thing. This is the big shifts. This is where I see entrepreneurs going from, you know, early six figures to really exploding and gaining tons of a momentum is when they can take all of these tactics and tools that they've gotten, they understand, and they can step back. [00:09:24] They can create. A strategy that's aligned to who they are as a person, but more than anything is absolutely focused on helping their customers get the transformation that they promise in their business. They help them go from where they are now to becoming that bright future identity that their business has been created to help them become [00:09:47] and so it's kind of this shift from. Basic tactics and how do I make money and how do I do this online and that self-focused entrepreneur phase to really shifting, to focusing on the transformation and results that we can get for our clients and how each of the things from our free content and our opt-ins and our launch strategy. [00:10:11] And our conversion strategy and the products and memberships and offers and all the things fit in to this cohesive system that all works together to help our clients get that personal transformation. And I think that's why it's been so hard for me to explain what the bright future method workshop really is because it's that big picture strategy that takes all the things you've learned. [00:10:40] And really helps you put them together in a way that makes sense. It builds in purpose and intention in psychology behind it with the basic. Understanding that we're doing this to get our customers transformation, to help them become the bright future identity. And if you're not sure what I mean when I talk about the bright future identity, go back to episode three right here in season three. [00:11:06] And I explain all about it, but basically it's the person that they want to become awesome. After they've experienced the transformation. That our business is going to bring for them. And so it's really hard for me. I'm still working on explaining this, but. My upcoming bright future method is going to help you create this strategy. [00:11:29] And that's where I see bright entrepreneurs really starting to shine is when they take all the stuff they've learned and they really step back and slow down for a few weeks and get very intense about every little thing they do. Not only do they need to work less because now they have an intentional strategy. [00:11:52] But all of the pieces start to work together and multiply their effect. So if you're doing free content, that free content is actually going to attract the right people instead of just anybody and that free content is going to desire for your offers. Right? And then if you have, let's say, if you have a method like mine and you can do this in multiple different ways, that's the beauty of this bright future method. [00:12:20] Um, Let's say you're like me and you have a course on the front end as your first paid product. And then after that, you're going to have some sort of membership so that you can bring recurring income into your business, like I'm planning to do so that course should give them what they need to get that first level of transformation. [00:12:39] And then the membership for me is going to continue supporting them. As they move towards becoming the bright entrepreneur that I know they are because when you're getting big picture strategy, like I'm going to be giving in my bright future method workshop. [00:12:54] it is a lot of thinking because it's a lot of intention. We're not as focused on the tools and the tactics, although they do play a part in it. We're more focused about how all of those pieces fit together. And. Build upon each other, right? So you get the framework and then you work on implementing it and you work within a community of other bright entrepreneurs where you can bounce ideas off each other, where you can talk about the things you're struggling with, where you can help find the missing pieces and each offer. [00:13:28] Prepares them for the next thing. So when we can step back and we can look at everything, we can look at all of our offers and our products and memberships and all of that stuff, and we can line it up and really clarify our messaging along the way. [00:13:42] We can look at that conversation that's going on, which is episode five of this season. If you haven't listened to that yet. And we can understand what we need to be saying at each point, along the customer journey. And what we need to do to help that customer go from who they are when they're coming into our business, to that bright future identity that we know we can help them have that transformation that we can give them. [00:14:10] And we know how each of our offers helps move them a little bit closer towards that trend formation. That's when the magic starts to happen. So. The bright entrepreneurs who are really successful, the ones who are making seven figures and beyond, they understand that they're focused, needs to be on the high level strategy that the tactics. [00:14:34] Yes. There's lots of them that work. But they don't matter nearly as much as we think they do. Just like when we're first starting out, we think the tools really matter. And then later as we get into the tactics, we realize, Oh, it doesn't really matter if you're on MailChimp or if you're on drip or if you're on Ontraport, all of them work fine. [00:14:52] But what matters more is, you know, what are you doing with it? What are the tactics that you're using to really make the most of that service? Well, there's that final layer where the bright entrepreneurs sit, who say, okay, That's great. We've got the tactics, we've got the resources and the tools now, how can we put them all together as a high level system, an intentional purposeful strategy. [00:15:17] That's really going to make all of them work together and grow our business. And that's what the bright future method workshop does. I'm going to be opening up the bright future method workshop. In just a couple of weeks, we're going to do a launch on September 21st. And the course is going to start on September 28th. [00:15:37] If you are interested in taking some time to really step back and look at the big picture of your business and focus on the strategy so that all of these tactics that you've been trying and all of these tools that you've got can come together and work cohesively. And so you're not wasting your time on stuff that. [00:15:57] Doesn't really work. Then I would love for you to join our wait list. Just go to bright future method.com. Enter your email and join there. And you will be the first to know when the doors open. I'm actually only gonna have the doors open for about four days. I'm going to do a little bit of prelaunch content. [00:16:17] Still got to figure that out. This is what happens when you're only seven weeks into building a new business. But, um, we're going to do some sort of launch content. I'm trying to decide between either a webinar or a challenge. I love the challenges. It's just more, a matter of getting myself all set up for that. [00:16:32] We're going to do that starting September 21st, and then the cart going to open about four days later. And so definitely get on that list. If you want to hear about it, if you are ready to start focusing on the right things so that you can really see your business start to grow and. Massive ways. The bright future method workshop is for anybody who really wants to be a bright entrepreneur who wants to have the intentional strategy and purpose behind growing your business. Now you can do, I need to know who you are, want to serve before you join the bright future method. [00:17:07] If you're not sure exactly. What kind of transformation you want to bring to people or who it is you want to work with? This is probably not going to be the course for you yet work some of that stuff out, do some beta launches, you know, sell your stuff to people and see how it goes and really gets at least enough clarity around what kind of transformation you want to bring to people through your business before joining the right future method workshop. But if you kind of know who you want to serve, and you've got a product that you sell, or a membership or some sort of offer that you've sold to them, and you want to add this layer of strategy to your business, then sign up for the waitlist now. [00:17:50] And I will make sure that you hear. All about it. So with that, my friends, I just want to thank you. If you're new around here would love it. If you would subscribe to the podcast. if you really love the podcast, I actually have a secret telegram channel. Now this isn't for everybody. This is only for the people who really do not want to miss an episode of this podcast and who want to hear a little bit more of the behind the scenes. Of what I'm working on in my business, as I'm restarting this brand new business, took my other one out. [00:18:29] That was just hard. Anyways. If you really feel like you are, are one of my biggest fans, you love what I'm teaching and you believe that this is something you want to focus on going forward. I would love for you to join the telegram channel all you need to do is go to bright entrepreneur podcast.com/telegram. Now I will put that link in the show notes. You'll also see a link to that. If you sign up for our emails, which will remind you at least once a week of any new podcast episodes that we've released and you can sign up for that, right? [00:19:04] At bright entrepreneur podcast.com/email link is also in the description. So for my greatest fans, you should definitely do both of that once you've already subscribed. And for everyone else. Keep listening, subscribe to the podcast. And once you've decided that this is really for you and you really love what you are learning here, you don't want to miss any of it, then come sign up for it, because this is really for my insiders. [00:19:29] I want to know who my people are, and that gives me a way to interact with you a little bit. More personally. So thank you guys for listening today. , I don't have a review pulled up right now to read for you. I meant to have one, but I'm kind of doing this episode off the cuff. And so I will try and read a review in the next podcast episode or two, but if you have not left a review for the podcast, I would really love if you would do that. 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BE SURE TO SEE THE SHOWNOTES AND LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE HERE. Eve Picker: [00:00:15] Hi there, thanks so much for joining me today for the latest episode of Impact Real Estate Investing.   Eve: [00:00:22] My guest today is Cynthia Muller. She's the director of Mission Driven Investment at the W.K. Kellogg Foundation. Cynthia doesn't see herself as a leader, but she is. She's been described as a thought leader of the impact investing ecosystem and a trailblazer in the field. Cynthia has been at Kellogg since 2016, first serving as a program officer with their mission driven investment division, then as its director. There she is wholly focused on their core mission to deploy investments that help to dismantle the root causes of racial inequity. She's taking action.   Eve: [00:01:18] Be sure to go to evepicker.com to find out more about Cynthia on the show notes page for this episode and be sure to sign up for my newsletter so you can access information about impact real estate investing and get the latest news about the exciting projects on my crowdfunding platform, Small change.   Eve: [00:01:41] Hi, Cynthia. I'm just really delighted to have this opportunity to talk to you.   Cynthia Muller: [00:01:47] Me too, Eve. It's been great, it's great to connect and I've been a huge fan of the podcast and I'm really excited for our conversation today.   Eve: [00:01:54] Oh, that's lovely to hear. OK, so I like having fans. So tell me, just to set the scene, what's your background and how did you become a leader in impact investing?   Cynthia: [00:02:11] I honestly, I didn't set out, by any reason, I certainly don't think of myself as one now. I'm really just a practitioner and I have the fortune to work for the W.K. Kellogg Foundation, where I lead our Mission Driven Investment program, which is about 13 years old, focused on impact investment. We do both MTRIs, our mission really did invest in market rate investments, as well as concessionary investments known at the foundation as program-related investment. And it's a small 450 million but it's really exciting because that pool has really been a tool for us at the foundation to learn how do we invest with a more equitable lend? How do we invest understanding that not only are we achieving a financial return, but we are also targeting demonstratable, tangible social impact?   Cynthia Muller: [00:03:02] And so, 13 years ago when our board approved this, they also declared us an anti-racist organization. In that same year in 2007, our predecessor, previous president of our foundation, as well as board members who are currently and of the past, had, knew that there were opportunities for us to think about how do we use tools differently, how do we think about systems differently? And so, 13 years later, it's all culminating now this intersection between understand that there would be systems that people operate in and even though these systems are built for everyone, they don't work for everyone. And I think what I'm heartened, despite this is a terribly difficult time to see what all of the loss of life, as well as the challenges that many folks are facing, and in particular, the poor Black, native and other marginalized groups that were already systematically left behind who now, yet have a double whammy to try and catch up.   Cynthia: [00:04:08] But that is also an incredible opportunity for groups that we fund and that we partner with. These are groups that are in communities. These are groups that, through their advocacy, lived experience and continued representation of the communities, know exactly what tools, what resources they need in order to build the community that will work truly for everyone. So, I'm so excited about that, this work and about the ways in which we can think about these systems, right? Because we're in such a period of inflection. We, in philanthropy, you know, obviously we, like a lot of other industries, are going through our own reckoning and how we navigate the non-profit sector and social impact and even how we navigate being complicit in some of these practices of white supremacy in these systems. So, for me, it's really helping to figure out how to use these tools to unlock and really help to support our folks in developing resources, tools and funds, models that truly could be resonant and sustainable for communities in the long term.   Eve: [00:05:12] I read somewhere that you said, you talked about approaching racial equity, not with guilt, but with an impact lens, which I love. I think that's a really meaningful shift in understanding for me, I suppose. And I wanted to start talking about, like, this is a really huge subject we all know but I'm in the little real estate industry section of it and I wanted to start talking about, you know, how the real estate industry fails people of color and what you think are some of the key things going wrong.   Cynthia: [00:05:47] Sure. And, I want to couch my remarks carefully, because, again to the point, I don't want to guilt, you know, folks in these conversations. These conversations are really to help illuminate, right? Illuminate how people actually experience working in these systems. And I think, in real estate industry in particular, I think is interesting, obviously built off our understanding of what it means to own land. Our, I should say, Western understanding of what it means to own land. And that's derived from obviously the theft of land from Native Americans several hundred years ago.   Cynthia: [00:06:25] And so, the start was there. The start with our fundamental understanding of what it means to land. And so, when you have a society that has been built on taking land from folks already there and then re-giving it out, well of course you're going to have flaws in the system several hundreds of years later because it perpetuates this idea of who owns the land and who has the right to decide on it. But that's not to say that for 2020, I think in the ways that real estate has left Black communities behind, I think it's similar to how the finance industry or even the entertainment industry has left Black communities behind. They leverage the work, the creativity of folks in use of their land. And it really started with slavery, with the renaming of the 40 acres and a mule. And so, folks who had nothing coming out of reconstruction where they were promised this land and they had it for a couple of years before it was unfortunately taken back and given to other folks, and in that case, those who have resources. And so, I think compound that over generations. Right? Every time there was an opportunity for black and brown people to build an asset, to build wealth, unfortunately and systematically, it was taken away through, either through force like we saw in, you know, in many examples that we've been learning about, but we also learned through other means, through legal means, right?   Cynthia: [00:07:53] And for me in my own journey, in understanding how these systems work, and even myself being complicit and working in organizations that didn't know, or to understand how, you know, we continue to perpetuate this divide through our financing structures, through how we even underwrite our deals, who we consider deal-worthy, even by zip code. And so I think all of that's to say that we all operate in this environment of a real estate where we understand who owns things based on who it's passed down to, the legal structures, but as we have learned through great reporting like The Atlantic and The New York Times and others, there have been generations of folks who've been losing their land. And one of the greatest examples right now is the great Black land theft. There's a great, great piece in ProPublica on just that. Basically, the systematic theft of Black land that's been left to families through generations. And unfortunately, the families that they gifted this land are unable to, for a variety of reasons, maybe they don't have the assets to find a lawyer or understand how to reach the appropriate folks to document ownership. And so, this creates more vulnerability and predatory behavior by others who see it as an opportunity.   [00:09:11] And so, I think that's all to say that's how the system works. We see how the money comes in. We see who is getting financed, how these big real estate funds are able to amass all this property through systematic purchasing. And we see how this plays out in local communities where there are a handful of individuals or families that own the real estate, right? And so, unfortunately, for folks who, like myself, my father was in Vietnam, came back from the war, settled in Alaska and worked as a civilian on the Air Force base for many years and was ultimately able to buy his own property. But that was after a lot of handwringing. He had to jump through a lot of different hoops, thinking about financing in different ways because traditional banks were going to put him through extra steps that he wasn't willing to go through. So, every time we talk about creating wealth for people, that's great. But it's not that everybody has the same access and opportunity to create that wealth. I think that's, quite frankly, how real estate fails black and brown communities. That lack of recognition is very much obviously focused on the bottom line and that exchange of the assets and who owns and how much revenue we can glean from it but we never systematically just sit down and think about who actually is benefiting from this and who is it benefiting from this?   Eve: [00:10:37] I mean, that's just a huge problem. And, you know, and the predatory behavior is continuing today in different ways. So, it isn't like it's stopped. So, what would it take to correct this? We're talking about banks that won't lend to certain groups of people. We're talking about people who go into poor neighborhoods and purchase homes for less than market value. We're talking about all sorts of, kind of, failings that ultimately impact people who don't have the resources to deal with it, right?   Cynthia: [00:11:13] Mm hmm, that's right. So how do we, how do we help them, right?   Eve: [00:11:16] How do we start, right?   Cynthia: [00:11:20] So now that we've painted this dire... What's out there? There are some incredible areas of opportunity and great work. One of those is really around community development finance. This is an industry that's been around for 40-something years. This really came out of church groups, non-profits creating loan funds all over the country to do justice, to be that bridge finance or for, in those places and those communities, for those people who are being overlooked. And so, there are several thousand CDFIs across the country, they're all kinds of shapes and sizes. Some of them are national, some of them are in places, some of them are thematically structured, but they're all in the service of deploying capital. And a lot of them are very much active in the real estate market because a lot of great programs in the 80s and 90s and then the aughts have really allowed the industry to flourish. New market tax credits to various CDFI fund programs, healthy food financing.   Cynthia: [00:12:24] I do think the CDFI space has done a tremendous job. We've got a great history and track record of these transactions. I think the challenge is that the industry is a little dispersed. Obviously, it's all over the country and each CDFI has its own individual strategy. And I think further, the CDFI industry has been really, really thoughtful about scaling up and figuring out how do we start to do larger deals so we can be a more significant player with the larger banks. And I think we've proven that case. I think, unfortunately, though, we have veered a little bit away from providing capital to the folks in the most need.   Cynthia: [00:13:05] And I say this because when we, as we have been trying to marry this impact and finance, I think this field is borne out of a number of different things and I think the folks that have come to it have brought all of this incredible insight and talent and resources from a lot of the institutional finance investment. Some of those folks came from banks, they came from investment banking, they came from equity, venture capital, the whole industry. Now if you think about it, what are those industries lacking? A lens into these communities, a connection into these communities. And unfortunately, I think that it still comes out in different ways. And so, I'll say that while we have incredible groups that are providing capital to low-income communities, we're still not hitting the most marginalized. We're hitting cities, we're hitting gentrifying areas. And so, if you actually look at some of the loans across the country, we are, we're actually, we're doing work but we're hitting the wrong areas.   [00:14:02] And so for me, it's really helping to illuminate what these other opportunities look like and that CDFIs and others have the opportunity to really bring their lens and this 40 years of working in low income communities to the space, and to provide that capital. That quite frankly, and it's already happening in so many ways. In the news recently, we're hearing about groups like Netflix and PayPal who are deploying tens of millions of dollars into CDFIs and community banks to help folks address these needs. And PPP, the subsequent round after the first round, they made sure to include CDFIs because, obviously, they realized really quickly that there was a whole flock of folks that were being left behind. I think CDFIs aren't the panacea, but I do think they are a huge partner, along with other asset holders that help to influence how we structure the practice.   Eve: [00:14:55] Yes. I think developers., OK let's talk about developers. They're often, you know, that's often considered a bad word in underserved neighborhoods, while there are, I think, quite a few developers who really want to do the right thing. So how we train developers to fully understand the consequences of their projects? And can we do that? Can we really, like, look ahead 20 years and understand what might happen in a neighborhood?   Cynthia: [00:15:27] Yeah, I think we can. I think we got a little bit of a lesson with Opportunity Zones. While.... hold out with me here. Opportunity Zones obviously a lot of challenges. I personally have a lot of challenges with them in the way that the program is structured, and I think folks have talked about this in detail. So, I don't think I have anything else to add. But I do think there were a number of my peers who were really trying to figure out just that. How do they help to show, demonstrate, the practice of making these investments in communities with that land? Right? Because that was the general intent that I think that a lot of folks had expected and unfortunately the program did not have enough accountability metrics to really allow for that to really play out.   Cynthia: [00:16:15] And so we've gotten what we've gotten, you know, a lot of deals that didn't go into high need communities. However, the work that Kresge Foundation funded really around, how do we look at these transactions with that lens? I think that was the most valuable piece of what we learned from Opportunity Funds so far, is that we can go in with a good intent, right? We know that the idea was to bring in new money, right? But we also realized that, unfortunately, capital markets need some accountability, you know. And I know that there's varying degrees of how we can play that. But it's clear to me that had we been clear about when you're going into these communities, here are kind of the criteria. How are you engaging with the community? What's the community's voice? Does the community have an actual equity stake in this development? If so, how? Right? So how do we get past this rubber stamp where people hold community meetings to say they did it and say the community's involved, right? How do we actually push for meaningful?   Cynthia: [00:17:18] I think the answer is pretty simple. I think the answer is that communities have a voice. And a voice that I think that people have been so surprised and shocked by. And it's been social media. Think about what we are able to see now right outside of the news. When I was growing up, you saw the news and that was your world view, right? And whatever news you've watched? And now your world view is not just the news you watch, it's the social media system and the people you connect with. And so, think about communities you see all over the country right now with, you know, Municipal Boards and cities debating and hearing the community talk about how they're being failed. And that is raising the visibility around a lot of the gaps. And I think that's really where the opportunity is. Because when you have a community that engaged, that community is willing to be involved and willing to go with you on that journey. And also, it means that there is an accountability there, that you can't just come into that community and say you're going to do one thing and not follow up.   Cynthia: [00:18:19] And I think that, quite frankly, developers, unfortunately, have a reputation. And I think this is an opportunity for them to work in a meaningful way, because I think in the long term that actually benefits them. If they have a community that's bought into, right? It's going to compound the prosperity of that asset, of that community and the longevity of that community, right?  And bring in more folks. And so, you want that compounding effect, but you have to spend the time to do it. And unfortunately, underwriting, due diligence, structuring doesn't allow for that. So how do you do that in a meaningful way that still allows folks to get their deals done to set up these projects to house, provide services to folks without going through a two-year journey of learning this community? And I think the answer, quite frankly, is that the community has to be involved in the development, right? It means that we have to think about their engagement differently. And it's not just the developer who's developing, it's the community who's developing their own community. It's a very deep philosophical shift, but it's one where I think where it's the time for us to be having a conversation.   Eve: [00:19:23] Yeah, no, I agree. But I think, you know, it's a very different conversation when it's a small developer versus a large one. It's about resources and what's possible and it's a huge industry doing a lot of different things. It's difficult.   Cynthia: [00:19:40] When you talk about small, like, the small developer, and I'm thinking about, you know, obviously there's the developers in New York and L.A. and then you've got developers in the Midwest and in these smaller cities. And there are different dynamics there, right? There's a little bit more, obviously, insular, you know. It obviously depends on who owns what assets, the political leanings of folks in power and whatnot. But I do think, given Covid, given the Black Lives Matter uprisings, we're in a place in time where that's our leverage. Right? Because we all want to build stronger communities. We all want to live in safe, strong communities. And I think that's the message for us, right? Where we've been living in the last four months in Covid and all of this. And there's so much fear and people just want to get to their communities. And so, it just feels like, if there were a call-out to developers, it would be now. You have an opportunity to rewrite how you show up in communities, how you develop communities, who you develop communities with.   Eve: [00:20:50] So, I want to go up the food chain just a little bit more because it isn't just developers. When developers look for equity, which, you know, over the last 15 years they have needed more and more of as banks have retracted the amount they will lend. You know, when you need to find 35 or 40 percent of the development cost as equity, you have to pay for that. Now we're in the market where there's investors who are seeking a return for the risk they're taking. And I think, more than anything, that return drives what goes on, right?   Cynthia: [00:21:26] It does.   Eve: [00:21:27] And I think there are expectations of return in real estate that I've heard, you know, are 25 percent internal rate of return. How can you ever build anything affordable for a community when that's the equity that you have access to? You know I have Small Change and I've been trying to raise money for meaningful projects, and this is this is the question I always get from developers. How much return do I have to give to investors to raise the money? And I don't really know the answer because I think there is kind of the level of greed and I wish that were kind of reduced right now, but I don't know the answer. I don't know if you have thoughts about that.   Cynthia: [00:22:12] While impact investing or social mission investing or whatever folks call it, I think we're in a moment. There's enough of us now, we're in major investment banks, we have our own celebrities now and I think our practice out there. Listen, like Netflix dedicating 100 million to Black banks all over the US didn't happen overnight, right? These funds that are 200-million-dollar impact funds didn't happen overnight. There are investors who understand how to manage risk and how to manage impact. I think the challenge is in creating a better flow between those investors and to folks that are raising those dollars. And that's the piece that I think we constantly run up against. What's nice is, through the global impact investment networks, through groups like SOCAP and Confluence and others, we have these great anchor organizations within our field that are really able to connect folks to the deal. So, for instance, at Confluence I just think they do a fantastic job, really kind of digging in in specific things and bringing their investors together. So, like any investor that has an interest in an area can go in. And in with other folks that have been looking at similar deals and to engage. I think it's really creating more visibility and awareness around that practice.   Cynthia: [00:23:36] And one of the things I think that it's already being seeded, it's been seeded, is that we are in so many business schools right now, there's so much impact investing being baked in into MBA programs, into graduate programs all over the country. We are also, we have a dearth of folks who are interested in the space and not enough jobs. And so, I think that I would put it out to developers to really start to look at that. There's a whole dearth of folks that are coming into the industry with this orientation. Hire them, engage them, especially if they're from these communities. Because what I have found is that a lot of these students and the young folks, the way that they're coming up in the world is not in these silos, the way that the world is so much more fluid. And so, it makes so much more sense, the why. For them this is, this integration, is much more, is a no-brainer. Unfortunately, we're on the other side of it or trying to reorient our infrastructure, our approach, our lens into that. And so, I would say for investors and for folks, for developers, smaller developers, looking for this type of investor, I that that with the impact field in the regard that we have community foundations in every major city in this country, we've got family foundations, we've got private foundations, and we've got a lot of individuals, like a lot of your listenership and your partners, right? And so, we have to start to message that and get that out more. And I think it's starting to take root. It's just, it's a lot. It's a lot in this environment, right? To introduce in a completely new framing.   Eve: [00:25:12] It is. Yeah. And then, you know, there's also redlining, which was supposed to be gone, right?   Cynthia: [00:25:21] No, yeah, no it never went away, never went away.   Eve: [00:25:24] It never went away. So how does that get eradicated? How will that go away?   Cynthia: [00:25:31] So familiar. You know, there are recent reports of some of the cases, and current cases of redlining are still there. And so, I think this is also a finer point, right? So, while we are being aspirational, working in this new normal, we still have to recognize we have vestiges of this old practice. And I think that for many groups that are wanting to engage, and what do I do now, it's really continued to let up and figuring out how do we support those communities. Look at the communities that haven't been, who haven't had any investment. And it's not easy, it's not hard to find them, right. And you can see exactly who has been flown over and the bank does, or what have you. Start looking at them.   Cynthia: [00:26:16] So, whenever folks come to us and they're like, oh, my gosh, we got we've got 50-million-dollars, which we do. All right. So, I ask them to look at their issue areas, look at and think about who's benefiting and who isn't, and then really focus on who isn't. And that's your baseline. And then you build from there you look at, all right, so if this community does not have access to housing, we're like, well, OK, well what other alternatives, right? Is a smaller housing unit? Is it partnerships with other groups? It's really helping them to reframe their lens instead of how the deals fit within the future is, to look at what the actual deal is and how you look for the opportunity.   Cynthia: [00:26:56] And I think that given that this recession will hit us very much in places different than the last recession and in a sense, because, look how Covid is hitting us now. The wave will be similar. So, I think the developers in those places that will be in a tremendous amount of opportunity and need for creativity.   Eve: [00:27:22] Yes.   Cynthia: [00:27:22] To help to buy up some of these properties, to help them ensure that they maintain affordability, that they are owned by Black and brown community. And so that's where I would go. I would look at that and start to think about how do we, how do we help reinforce these communities.   Eve: [00:27:38] Right. Oh, OK.   Cynthia: [00:27:43] Sorry, we said we'd go heavy and deep.   Eve: [00:27:48] I know, it's hard work, isn't it? Just shifting gears, a little bit, how much money is being deployed in impact investing at the moment and how much you expect that to grow?   Cynthia: [00:28:01] Yes so impact investing has, over the last few years, has grown a tremendous amount. And so, in the most recent global impact investment report, I believe that the size, and they, every year, they do a survey of self-identified impact investing and impact investors, that every year it's been going up. And so, this year, I think we're up into several trillion. And what's really exciting is if you actually look at the impact investing, if you look at that survey, do it every year, you can see, year over year, exponential growth of the folks that are identifying in this space. And even more so, if you look here in the US, you can see more and more folks that have, who have investable assets, who are very much interested. So, the signs show that there is interest.   Cynthia: [00:28:44] I think the challenge is like, OK, what is that interest, right? And how do we translate that interest into capital and into these deals? And I think that's the piece that, what we do in our grant-making and with our peers in the impact investing field, it's where, how are we creating new vehicles, whether they're investment vehicles and organizations or even thinking about the fintech infrastructure, right? So, there's a lot of conversations around that. And how do we attract investors to participate in, kind of, this fintech revolution or should we in some cases? And I think that's all to say, that there's a momentum and it's just connecting that momentum with folks who have capital. And the folks who have capital are very much interested in that. A least based on my schedule calls.   Eve: [00:29:34] You said the folks that have capital and that that's actually what interests me most because everyone has a little bit of capital. I think about how everyone could be involved. And, you know, when you build a new project in a neighborhood that is funded through foundation funds or government funds or new market tax credits or however, you basically increasing, eventually, the asset value of that neighborhood. And then there are people who are left behind. We call that gentrification. I think there's probably some good things about gentrification. You can't, you know, not leaving neighborhoods in deplorable states is one of them. I think investments have to be made. But how do you make sure that the little people also get to be part of this, maybe even get to invest?   Cynthia: [00:30:27] Yeah, and I think the more that we can democratize investing, I think the better. The same way think about social media, the way that we've democratized people's voices. Some would argue there's a downside, and there definitely is...   Eve: [00:30:42] Yeah, there definitely is.   Cynthia: [00:30:44] I will not deny that. But think about it. Think of the voices we've been able to hear; think of the things that we've been able to see.   Eve: [00:30:52] Yes.   Cynthia: [00:30:52] Think about the deals. Now translate that to investment. Think about the deals we'll be able to do as a result of people's voices and perspectives who outside of our industry. And I think there'll be a reckoning for us around what does risk actually mean? When you think about the risk of National Guardsmen coming into your city and bringing, and all of the chaos that could come with that, right, because some of these protests? And so, I think risk is really what's on the table, is like, how do we, a free market, define risk? And that's what's really happening, because it's clear that people have defined risk in ways that have been self-serving to one group or groups over others, right?   Eve: [00:31:36] Yes.   Cynthia: [00:31:36] And so, and that's where we're at. That's where we're at. But wait a minute, you didn't have, you know, how many folks were like, wait a minute, you know, why couldn't you waive our rent? These are all issues that are based on the system, but we can dictate the system based on what the need is in this given moment. And I think that that's really caused a lot of consternation in folks, and particularly those folks that are coming, that are growing up, progressing in their careers and realizing they're not going to have the same opportunities as the parents.   Eve: [00:32:11] Right.   Cynthia: [00:32:12] Or the grandparents. Are you even remotely, you know.   Eve: [00:32:17] So, a completely different question again. What community engagement tools have you seen that have really worked?   Cynthia: [00:32:26] Power mapping. It's probably one of my, the best tools in the sense of really, if you are an investor who wants to, you want to make sure that you're engaging in community in a sufficient and a meaningful way and, be real, like the Black community, right? And often folks especially, say a white developer, or white-led organizations don't know how to navigate that. So, I would encourage folks to look at things like power mapping and helping them to understand why some communities will be so resistant to developers. This takes reflection and really understanding around the barrage of issues that these communities are facing. And obviously, place is paramount, but now on top of that, access to health care, access to jobs. And so, when you think about that and you have developers that are coming in, we're going to fix your lives with this new development and then not deliver. And then rinse and repeat. That bears out, that really shows up in the community. I encourage folks to always go into understanding power. How has it been stripped from this community? You know, in the past, how has it enabled the community? You learn about the history, right? It really helps you to understand, how do you find a project, or structure a project, that will get through and be meaningful and beneficial to the community. So, I always start with power mapping.   Cynthia: [00:33:48] I also start with, you know, there are a lot of really great local data and analytics there. Folks who are just totally crunching the data for the communities, right? And really using that to program. Look at them. A lot of folks like to bring in national groups and they're great, too but I think these local groups have access to data, they have the nuance of this data, that I think is far more powerful and insightful to folks who are thinking about a comprehensive project. That's the data that helps to tell the story of that community. And so, so many stories of communities have been forgotten or reframed. And so, I would also think about them, making sure you're getting an understanding of that community, not the, you know, not the one that's told you by folks who are selling it, but really the community. Right? And so, you know, when you're going in, you know what you experience with blockers in that development.   Eve: [00:34:46] That's really, that's really fascinating. OK, so, where do you think the future of real estate impact investing lies, like 10 years from now? What does this all look like?   Cynthia: [00:34:57] Gosh. Hopefully, it means we see more community making decisions about what businesses are there and more deep engagement, right? I think we've seen a lot of national chains that go into various communities and doing a lot of extractive practices, unfortunately. And so, I'm hopeful that we see a little bit of a rightsizing of that, right? And I think where we see much more meaningful and thoughtful engagement from a lot of our national corporates who are a critical partner to community development all over this country. I also hope that we have better models for underwriting these projects and ensuring that we're thinking about risk in the proper way. And then we are also, we're comfortable with a different form of return from some of these projects we'll take. We all, many of us, are long-term investors, right? But we all, we say we're long term investors, but that's not how we act. And so, I think that'll be an interesting piece, I hope that it helps us to shake out a new framing around that.   Eve: [00:36:05] And so what's next for you? What are you working on?   Cynthia: [00:36:10] A couple of things. Something that I'm really excited about, well as much as you can be excited about trying to systematically eradicate racial injustice in the capital markets, is really some of this ecosystem building. So, for instance, like I said, you know, this recession is going to be so localized and so for, in my mind, that it creates a lot of opportunities with a lot of our local leaders and a lot of folks are about to become local leaders. And so, there's the conversations that are happening in some of these cities around that and thinking about innovative financing structure. So, I'm really excited about that, Eve. I'm also excited about getting a little more visibility to many of our under-banked and under-financed regions, most notably in the US south. The US south are going to have like 45 percent of our population, is probably the most impoverished counties and cities across the country. And yet we barely have banked them. We barely have community banks and other resources to help these communities, kind of figure out the tools and structures that would work for them and so, for me, it's really connecting those dots and really helping them build those eco systems and driving more capital and connecting investors to those burgeoning opportunities and businesses and funds.   Eve: [00:37:36] Well, I think you'll have your hands full, in fact, I think we're all going to have our hands full, but it is, as you said, an opportunity. Thank you so much for talking to me today. I really enjoyed our conversation. Hope we continue it.   Cynthia: [00:37:55] Likewise, Eve.   Eve: [00:37:55] That was Cynthia. Every time there has been an opportunity for black and brown people to build an asset, to build wealth, says Cynthia, it's been taken away from them. Who do we consider deal-worthy? Cynthia thinks we are in a moment and so do I. This may just be the moment where we should all sit our guilt aside and just take action.   Eve: [00:38:22] You can find out more about impact real estate investing and access the show notes for today's episode at my website evepicker.com. While you're there, sign up for my newsletter to find out more about how to make money in real estate while building better cities.   Eve: [00:38:39] Thank you so much for spending your time with me today. And thank you, Cynthia, for sharing your thoughts. We'll talk again soon but, for now, this is Eve Picker signing off to go make some change.  

Have you developed a toxic working relationship with yourself?  In this episode, I discuss the power of rest and share the importance of time off, both scheduled and unscheduled, where you're able to just decompress from your business. You’ll learn how taking time off allows you to feel rejuvenated and recharged and show up as strong as possible for your business and your clients. Here are some things we covered in this episode: How to avoid burnout by taking time off Why taking time off is essential for you to be able to grow your business Taking time off gives you the mental and physical capacity where you're excited to work on your clients' projects Why you should keep track of your time Discover how you are really procrastinating on a lot of projects or taking a lot of time on things that didn't need to take so long The importance of establishing creative ways to step back from your business How to know if you are treating yourself like a boss or a worker Discover if you have developed a toxic working relationship with yourself Why you need to review the last year, decide what you want the following year to look like, and put some immediate stop gaps in your schedule How getting out of the office triggers creativity and new thinking processes How the power of rest is essential physically and emotionally for you to feel rejuvenated and recharged Why the more you run yourself down, the more exhausted you're going to be for your business and for your clients How you can show up as strong as possible for your business and your clients Resources Mentioned: toggl.com Book: The Passion Paradox by Brad Stulberg After listening to this episode, share your action steps and take-aways with our group: Mastering Your Freelance Life With Laura   Connect With Laura: Follow Laura on Facebook Join Laura’s Community Subscribe to the Podcast Subscribe to Laura’s YouTube Channel Read the Transcript: (00:01): Welcome back to another episode of the advanced freelancing podcast. I'm recording this episode in August, which historically has been a month that I have usually taken off from freelancing or scaled things down to a very part-time status. And there's a reason for that, right after freelancing for eight years, there are certain months of the year that are just slower than others. And I usually record episodes around this time of year about how to recalibrate, how to look at your work samples, how to take a step back. Um, you prepare yourself for the busy fall season, but this year, I also think it's more important than ever to think about taking time off from your business, particularly because the pandemic has really shifted what that looks like for so many families. And it's very possible that you've been working remotely for years, but now your spouse is suddenly at home or your kids are at home and the school schedule is all different and it becomes very easy when everyone's in the house doing work for it to feel like all you ever do is work and that you're working constantly all the time. (01:03): And that's a really vicious cycle that can set you up for burnout. So in this podcast episode, I want to talk a little bit about how to take time off both longer stretches and also on a more ongoing basis to step away from your business. I've dealt with burnout multiple times as a freelancer, as an employee. I've seen it from so many different perspectives, but I've also coached many of the freelancers that I work with. One-on-one about what burnout looks like for them and how to guard against it, or to take that step back when you realize that you are entering into burnout so that you can put in place some proactive measures to avoid going into that again in the future, but also to make it a little bit easier on yourself in the moment. Now, one of the most important things you can do to guard against burnout is to take regular time off in your business. (01:54): And not just time when you're at stepping out and going on a vacation, right? I mean the whole idea of travel and vacation has pretty much been obliterated as a result of the pandemic. And so if you have a spouse that works in a traditional situation, they've probably accumulated a lot of vacation days, but you and your family don't feel comfortable traveling just yet. And so you've probably gotten into the habit since, you know, the end of February 2020, when all this started of working as much as possible. Even if it's not just in your business, you might also be balancing that with family responsibilities and taking care of your kids or even homeschooling and doing some of these other things. And plenty of us freelancers feel so grateful just to have clients at this moment in time because we know that the pandemic has not affected all freelancers equally. (02:42): And so there's a hesitancy against getting rid of some clients. And so most people are keeping these projects going. They're looking for new projects, they're trying to build in some of that financial stability, especially if another income earner in their house has lost their position or is working on decreased hours or anything like that. But you can see how all of these things line up for a perfect storm for you to become overworked and burned out. Even if you've had pretty good habits in the past. There's a lot of different things here that could set you up to not take time off from your business, right? And you might feel that increasing pressure like Laura, how can you say that? How can I take time off now when it's more important than ever that I keep my business afloat, that I work really hard to keep these contracts open, and to make my clients feel like it's a value add for them to (03:32): Stick with me, lots of smaller businesses have been negatively affected by the pandemic, and no doubt that's been reflected in marketing budgets. And so when we go into that restrictive mode with our finances, it feels as though you shouldn't take time off or that you can't take time off because there are so many other things on your plate and you feel that pressure to essentially continue performing and trying to keep things at that higher level so that you have some protection and some padding, if any, one of your clients were to cancel that you still have some other projects and retainers that are going on, but taking time off is essential for you to be able to grow your business. And also to show up with the mental and physical capacity where you're excited to work on your clients' projects. So, several years ago, I was working with a business coach who saw that I was putting in way too many hours. (04:25): I mean, I had kind of fudged down the number of hours I was actually working per week and she challenged me to keep track of it for one week to see what I was really doing. And so I used a manual timer, toggle.com, which is a tool I often recommend to other people, whether you're using it to time things for clients or for your own purposes. And I saw that I was really putting in between 50 and 60 hours a week. And the weird thing about it was I didn't really need to be doing that. I just felt more purposeful when I was working. I tend a little bit towards the workaholic spectrum already. So I know it's something that I have the propensity to do, but I could not remember the last time I had taken a sick day or that I had really just taken a day off to not do anything, right. (05:10): Like I would take a day off of client projects to go do a speaking event or to do something related to, you know, book, promotion or something like that. But I had never really taken a full day off unless were specifically taking vacation and I was fully disconnected like on a cruise ship or something like that. And one of the things this business coach said to me that really struck me in that moment was that I was as a boss, treating myself very abusively, like a worker. And that I had actually developed this really toxic working relationship with myself as far as like Laura, the boss, and Laura, the business owner who was trying to, you know, structure what it would look like to run a freelance business. And then also Laura, who was working inside the business, and this is a really dangerous and potentially toxic cycle. (06:01): And, um, when she suggested that I cut my hours, you know, my reaction was about what you'd expect. It was a lot of resistance. And so I get it if you're in that position and you're feeling like world events are telling you to do anything but step back, but it is absolutely critical that you start thinking about how you take time off from your business and not just that one or two weeks of vacation a year. We don't know what vacation is going to look like in the coming months. It's definitely not going to look like how travel did before we, we don't know when things, or if things will calm down in the near future. Um, you know, there may be members of your family who do feel comfortable traveling and others who don't. And so you have to be able to come up with creative ways to step back from your business. (06:42): And so from that example of talking with my business coach a couple of years ago, I could not foresee taking off entire days. It just felt really, really impossible for me. And so she issued me a challenge that for two weeks, I had to finish all of my work by 2:00 PM. And then I had to have some form of an appointment outside the house to go, you know, really literally forced myself to stop at 2:00 PM. And it felt very uncomfortable to do this at first. And then I realized that I was really procrastinating on a lot of projects or taking a lot of time on things that didn't need to take that long. And so, only one or two of those days across a two week period, did I really feel that time crunch? You know, it would be like 1:23 in the afternoon and I'd be kind of sprinting towards the finish line to hurry up and do what I needed to do before the next day. (07:33): But it was a really helpful exercise for me to see that I could take time off from my business and that it really was possible. And it also opened my eyes a lot to the projects that I was working on, that wouldn't fit into a new schedule of me taking some more time off. So even though it's hard right now to imagine getting out of your house, it is one of the easiest tips to help you really begin to take time away from your business, particularly if you can be away from your laptop and your phone. So this can be going to a state park and being socially distant, lots of things where you can go outside and you can get some fresh air and there's no need, or it's really difficult to bring along technology. I think that really helps to break the habit a little bit and you might not be able to do entire days at first, right? (08:19): You might need to say I'm taking Friday afternoons off every week for the next month and see how that goes for you. And then once you feel like that's possible, you might take that step back and think about more regularly taking time off in your business in a different way. Now I've usually taken more time off in August and in December because they do tend to be slow freelance periods. And you'll hear some coaches say, well, you can do business anytime. And that's definitely true, but I'm not going to try to work really hard during months when I just have eight years of data showing me that it's the hardest to get clients anyways. And so I'm not going to like push myself through something like that, just to say, Oh yeah, I can get clients on Christmas day or whatever. Right? So that's been one way that I've really helped to break myself away from the workaholic tendencies is by saying, I'm going to try to schedule the most of my downtime around when it tends to be quiet with freelancing clients anyways, so that not only will, I feel like my schedule is open enough with my current client load, but I won't feel like I'm losing opportunities by stepping away during the months when I'd be unlikely to get a new client anyways. (09:30): And that's made it a lot easier for me. And it's given me some touchpoints throughout the year to look forward to the fall is such a busy season. And then it kind of tapers off around Christmas. Right? But knowing that maybe August isn't going to be so difficult of a month and December is going to be kind of light and just, you know, reviewing the last year and thinking about what you want the following year to look like gives you some breathing room mentally and put some immediate stop gaps in your schedule to be able to do this. Now, one of the ways that I coached one of my coaching clients to do this was, she said, you know, for years, I've just wanted to take off two weeks around the holidays. I've just wanted to like to close my office, like the week before Christmas, all the way through new years. (10:11): And so I said, just do it like this is like August or September. Go ahead and block it in your calendar now that you are on vacation and start thinking now about what do you need to do a couple of months out to be prepared to really take those two weeks and enjoy them, even if it is a staycation. So you do want to notify your clients of things like this. You want to make sure you've turned in all things early with those kinds of deadlines. And, um, you want to really feel like when you get to that point, you're not racing against the clock and you're ready to just disconnect from your office. Odds are fires and emergencies, and really big problems are not going to pop up while you step out of your business for a certain period of time, whether for you that's a day. (10:53): And that barely feels manageable right now, or whether it is something like two weeks where you're hoping to disconnect when it comes to taking time off from your business, you need to just write it down, make it a reality, put it in your calendar. You know, if you're still working full time and you're looking to have some time off from both your side hustle and your day job, you need to request that time off, have it on the calendar, you know, have plans of, you know, what you're going to do. Maybe you picked a really busy park to go to and you want to avoid the crowds. And so you're, pre-purchasing your parking pass. And, um, anything else you need to get there? And you're packing a picnic lunch the night before to really solidify like, yes, I'm doing this. I'm not going to wake up and feel like, well, it would be easier if I just stayed home today and I could get some extra work done. (11:41): So it's really important when taking time off to get out of your office, as much as possible new environments can trigger all kinds of great creativity and new thinking processes that will allow you to feel rejuvenated. And if you're on the edge of burnout, spending more time in your home office is not going to make that any better, right? In most cases, just going to make it much, much worse. And so take some time to step away. Even if that's, you know, visiting a family member that, you know, has also been social distancing and you can drive there or going away to a cabin or taking an RV or something like that, where you can disconnect from your business and really break away. And for me, like I said, it's been easiest to do this in situations where technology is just not accessible or is such a pain that it's a problem to do, right? (12:30): So if like I'm camping in a cabin, that's pretty isolated and rural, they might have wifi, but the fact that it's probably terrible wifi makes it easier for me to say, you know what? I really don't need my computer this weekend. There's nothing that's going to be urgent enough or important enough for me to feel like I want to drag my computer out and work on really slow wifi. Now, I really believe that every quarter you should be taking at least a couple of days off, if it's easier for you at first to have those be planned days where you've got appointments, where you've got specific things doing that can help you. We're definitely living in unprecedented times where you can't really schedule things like a massage or a weekend getaway or a couple of day cruise, right? So you still need to honor that time off in your calendar. (13:20): However, I find it to be helpful to kind of balance my days between things where I have stuff planned for my days off, relaxing activities, exercise being outdoors. And then also just days where I don't have anything planned and where it's totally okay to wake up and read a book or binge-watch a TV show all day. If you have been working really, really hard now, one resource I want to share with you before I wrap up, I recently interviewed this author for my other podcast and he was absolutely incredible. And I love his book and he talks a lot about the power of rest and how it's not just something that people say to help you prevent burnout. It is really essential physically and emotionally for you to feel rejuvenated and recharged. And the more you run yourself down, the more exhausted you're going to be for your business and for your clients. (14:09): And that's ultimately going to start to show in the results or in the way that you show up for those clients. And so building rest in and being very proactive about it, benefits everyone across the board. So one thing I want to challenge you to do is to sit down right now and take a look at your upcoming calendar and see if there are, you know, two days that you can take off in the next six weeks that you're going to go ahead and actually block out on your calendar. And I like to look for days that don't have a lot of things scheduled already. That makes it easier for me to be like, Oh good. I don't have to bump any meetings. Now, this book that I'm going to recommend to you is called The Passion Paradox by Brad Stulberg. He's also written a book about peak performance. He works with a lot of athletes and tells some really incredible stories in both of those books that are primarily based on athletes but have so much crossover to business owners that I cannot recommend them enough. He really talks about these cycles of rest as being essential, to working at your highest level of performance. And that is certainly true for entrepreneurs. And so you need to do more than just give yourself permission to rest. You need to be proactive about how you build it into your calendar, and it can't just be (15:22): Vacations that you take a couple of times a year when the kids are off school. And when it's easy for your spouse to step away, you also need time, both scheduled and unscheduled time where you're able to just decompress from your business and not have things that are making you feel pressurized. And you don't need to explain this to anyone like your subcontractors or people in your digital team or your clients. You can just say, I will be out of office on Friday, September 30th and, you know, put an autoresponder up for that particular day and start small, right? And really honor those commitments that you make to yourself. I always like to look at my monthly calendar at a glance and start to see where I might have some opportunities to take that time off so that I can really hold myself accountable and make sure that it's spaced out. (16:11): Now, I'm recording this episode after taking three solid days off last week. And I can't tell you how much it was needed. I was actually really disappointed in myself that I hadn't taken time off that off like that in the recent past.  I had taken, you know, days off to go do other things or to handle other meetings or presentations or, you know, in February to go to the pod Fest conference. But I hadn't ever actually taken some days since the pandemic started to just decompress and to have nothing on my calendar. And I felt so good coming back to work on Monday. I felt like my mind was clear and that means you're going to show up as strong as possible for your business and for your clients. So if it's been a while, since you've taken some time off, you have a clear action step from this episode that can really drive you towards doing that. Meet Laura: Laura Briggs is empowering the freelance generation. Through her public speaking, coaching, and writing, she helps freelancers build the business of their dreams without sacrificing all their time, family, or sanity. Laura burned out as an inner-city middle school teacher before becoming an accidental freelancer with a Google search for “how to become a freelance writer.” Since then, she’s become a contributor to Entrepreneur, Business Insider, and Writer’s Weekly. She worked for more than 300 clients around the world including Microsoft, Truecar, and the Mobile Marketing Association. She’s delivered two TEDx talks on the power of the freelance economy for enabling freedom and flexibility and how it’s being used to address the technical skills gap in the U.S. Laura is the host of the Advanced Freelancing podcast, a sought-after public speaker on the gig and digital freelance economy, and a freelance coach focused on aspiring six-figure freelancers. Laura’s books, courses, and coaching have reached over 10,000 people. As a military spouse, Laura is passionate about serving her community and founded Operation Freelance, a nonprofit organization that teaches veterans and military spouses how to become freelancers and start their own business.

Today's guest is a believer in authentic connections and heart-based leadership. He's spoken at TEDx five times and is an Inc Magazine Top 100 Leadership Speaker. With over 500,000 social media followers, he is a recognized influencer and here to teach you how to network authentically to build brand awareness. Please welcome Bobby Umar. Contact Info: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbyumar/ https://twitter.com/raehanbobby https://www.facebook.com/raehanbobby/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/bobbyumar/ https://www.nsb.com/speakers/bobby-umar/ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLei-DaVi2YC0vXcZ13AiJvYgBDKzfaecq https://www.instagram.com/raehanbobby/ https://www.youtube.com/c/BobbyUmar Hey, Bobby. Thanks for thanks so much for jumping on learning from others today. I'm excited to be here, Damon. Thanks. Uh, you have a pretty diverse background, you know, inc magazine, top a hundred leadership speaker. You've done TEDx a bunch of times, tons of social media followers, and that's how you and I met was on LinkedIn. Um, so. Before we dive into how you got there and what your, your secret sauce is. Let's kind of start with my guests, usual, two questions. And question number one is, you know, in your own words, what are you good at? And what can we potentially learn from you today? I would say my main expertise is what I call the power of connection and that's my hashtag. And they use the power of connection in three ways to help companies and individuals. One is a personal branding, which is the connection with the self. Number two is authentic. Network analyst should build it in the thirties. Um, Social media, digital influence and public speaking, which is the connection with the world. And so for me, helping people connect as individuals to other individuals or other groups, that's really what I do best. Okay. I'm going to have some follow up questions for you on that, but I need to know what are you not so good at? Hold on. Not so good at it, man. So many things. Yeah. I can't swim. I really never learned how to swim. I have not. Uh, I'm pretty, I'm terrible with the, the, the health management piece. I mean, I'm trying to lose weight and I'm trying to eat healthy and just, I find it very difficult at times. I think that's, that's a hard thing. Uh, I probably suck at, uh, definitely. Uh, time management sometimes. And sometimes I'm really good sometimes just like terrible, but it's more about the, you know, getting those small things in. And I just, like, I find like, okay, I'm stressed, I'm distracted. That's squirrel. That's, that's the thing I'm very distracted easily. You know, what's interesting is, and I've said this to our listeners more than once is that it's so funny to bring on experts and more often than not. They say that they suck at the small things. So they suck at time management, which is like the total opposite of what you assume, but it's just a reoccurring theme. Now, if you learn to swim, that also helps with weight loss. So there you go. Oh boy. Yeah. I could just float around everywhere. Yeah. All right. So, um, let's talk about, you know, the explanation of what you do is fairly broad. So let's kind of dial it in a little bit and maybe give us some examples of. Either like real examples of types of situations you've helped businesses with, or maybe, um, maybe if that's maybe if maybe your most common example is, is a little bit different than your most preferential type of arrangement. So like, you know, what part of it do you actually love and maybe what do you do the most of? Hmm. Yeah, I think when I go, I mean, I speak at companies and conferences and schools everywhere, but usually when I go in, they want me to take them through. Um, how to, uh, things like how to connect better and network better, you know, in person and how to have great conversations, how to communicate more effectively, uh, very soft skill type stuff. That's a very common day that I'll do another one that I'll often work on is what I call thought leadership, personal branding. So how do I understand my brand? How do I build thought leadership on our big content as you build that up? And so I'll take. You know, like small business owners, I'll talk to a bunch of custom custom with brokers, and I'll talk about how to build a brand using content and how to communicate effectively and use that brand to generate more business, a community. And those are examples of organizations where I'll go in and I'll help them out. Another time it'll be more around things like, well, how do I build a social media following? How do I communicate with that community? How do I actually. Um, you know, build followers, how do I engage them? Do I comment everything? Do I reply a lot of senior people don't know how to do that. They're very scared of social media still, like years later. And so I think that's something that they struggle with. And ultimately, because when people die, I usually go in and do team building or employee engagement stuff and talk about passion engagement, uh, better teams not working in silos. So I'll go in and. You know, work with companies and teams that are struggling within those areas of culture, culture, culture, gaps, work in silos. These are things that might go in and, you know, we'll do some activities with them to help them better bond and better communicate with each other. So what's your background that got you into this world? Well, you know, it's pretty diverse, you know, I w I was a engineer, uh, so it was kind of an analytics guy, a, you know, aerospace design engineer. So I'm a problem solver, but then I went to brand marketing and then I was also in performing arts. So I performed a improv comedy, musical theater. And so when I was feeling like, kind of lost and stuck in what I was doing, I dealt with my brand and I was like, Oh, Hey, well, what's going to come, come through here. And it turned out, you know, five things can come about one with Bobby, those people marvelous and nurture. Like my mom Bob was to perform a present like onstage. Bobby was persuading influence, which is kind of a sales thing. And then of those diversity, um, so all five of those things kind of led to me thinking, okay, what can I, what kind of have, can I create with this? And that's when you know, professional speaking kind of screaming at me, okay, this is the way to go. And that's kinda what I went with. And what I've been doing now for 15 years and that, that diverse background is really what led into it, because they're all part of what I'm doing now. Yeah. Yeah. Now one comment you mentioned was soft skills and. I, uh, I'm a huge believer in the importance of that, but until you said, I, I, I didn't really realize, I haven't really talked about it very often on the show. Um, why don't you give us explanation of, you know, what soft skills are. And I think what's super important is, um, Because I think soft skills have kind of degraded with technology. And so then maybe we can talk about that. So, you know, in your world, what are soft skills and like, how are they applicable to business? Well, I think the most direct way to talk about soft skills, the soft skills are the skills you're using to create an emotional connection. With people that you, uh, interact with. So whether they're your colleagues at work, whether it's your boss, whether it's your parents, whether it's your social media followers that you create content for, you're trying to create an emotional connection and emotional experience with that. And so soft skills. That's, what's going to get you there. So for example, you know how I communicate, it's the soft skills. And so my communication can have empathy. It can have storytelling in it. They can have, you know, a warmth and energy to it, which will then create a better connection with that person and create a more memorable experience. So for me, that's what soft skills. Now do you agree that, and this is a pretty broad statement, but do you agree that technology has caused, um, some of the authenticity and in soft skills to kind of dive a little bit in the last 10 years? Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Um, I was actually going to, um, launch a brand new talk, um, uh, actually is going to be, uh, in a week from now in Poland, but, uh, it didn't happen, but it's been postponed, but it was going to be, it was going to be on. The future of connection now. And what's happened, is that what hypothesis thesis is that? There's a couple of things happening. One is, you know, technology has made it more difficult for some people to connect. In person. And so I think people struggle with that, but at the same time, there's also a disconnection too, because people who are actually, the people are struggling to actually, uh, in person to leverage technology, to connect with the world. And on top of that, we also have all those technologies. No we're using like at work, you may have two screens, you may have a laptop and a desktop. You may have a phone and something else, and we're trying, and then we have all these other platforms, you know, Slack, Trello, A sauna as well as Facebook and social media and LinkedIn, and it's, it's overwhelming. And so people are now struggling to just even find the right balance. So I think that, you know, the, the short answer is yes, I think it definitely has caused a challenge. People will, I've been challenged to connect in person before, but now with technology doing online stuff, they're also challenged that way to connect and authentic way. So I think it provides a lot of challenges for people. Uh, and to find the balance between the two. That is interesting, because I think I've thought of those two where technology makes people more in person. And I thought of that independently and then independent of that, I thought about, you know, the opposite, but I guess I haven't put them in context. It's like overlapping the same, that they're both, you know, the yin and yang of each other now with soft skills. How do you. Where do you start? Because I think that maybe the more extreme example that I, that comes to mind is you have an introvert. And so you're like, Hey, it's really important that you talk to people and have soft skills. And that they're just an introvert and they're like, Bobby, I don't want to. So is that something that you deal with sometimes and how do you do that? Yeah, absolutely. I did a webinar on how introverts can network more effectively. One of the things to keep in mind is that, you know, people. We have to understand the importance of people in our lives. So the internet and our social lives are personalized, but even professionally, if you're good at building relationships and building people's skills, it's going to suit you. You're going to get that promotion. You're going to generate those leads. You're going to actually have your close clients, whether you're doing corporate or entrepreneurship or whatever it might be, or even, even as a student, if you want to get ahead of the professor to be your buddy, you know, people's skills are really important. So, you know, one of those introverts I'll always say is that, you know, you have your own superpowers. So know what they are. You're good listeners. You're prepared, usually organize you're quite thoughtful and reflective. So take those things and use it to be a better networker. A perfect example for networking is I'll say, look, you know, prepare 10 questions that you think will drive a conversation to help someone get to know them better and also invest in who they are. And yeah, them practice them, rehearse them before you even go. And you have them all memorized. That's going to help you tremendously because you know, you're really good at that kind of stuff, all that prep. And so it helps them to figure that stuff out. You know, what came to mind while you're talking, this is kind of off topic, but yeah. Also immediately relevant at the same time, you know, you talking about everybody having kind of hidden values is. Years ago. I don't know if you saw the story. There was a, a woman that was like legally blind. And so she understandably had hurdles and types of implants. And so she started her own company as a sensitive document paper shredder. Because she couldn't read the documents anyway. Right. It's a, I think it's just a, I love those stories like that, where they take something that's super unique and then just turn it in as a positive. I mean, that's a total win right there with them. She builds trust right away. Now waters, you mentioned that all their audiences oftentimes get scared of engaging on social media. And I think that's fair, but what are they scared of? I think a lot of them are scared of technology and security is one thing. So they don't know how secure things are. And they're worried about things being a picture, being taken out of context or working things out of context, and it blows up in their face. I think that's one thing that they're, they're really concerned about. Uh, the other thing that they get concerned about is really trying to. Uh, they, they feel, they feel, um, that they're not technical. And so I think that worried that they're dumb, they don't want to look, they don't want to be vulnerable. I find it like kind of daunted because they were told or where they grew up. They were told to be tough and to be, you know, strong and to, you know, always put that best face forward. But, you know, nowadays, you know, leadership 2.0, you know, we all know that it's okay to be vulnerable. Okay. The asphalts. Okay. That talk about your struggles. Uh, but I think when I, when I engaged the older, older folks, they have a hard time saying, well, how can you say that? Even my mom's like, why don't we, why don't you talk about the way problems? Like, you know, she doesn't get it because she thinks it provides accountability, a support network. I, it makes me accountable. I love doing and relatable too. Yeah. Relatable exactly what let's talk about that a little bit more about being perfect on screen and the value in, um, You know, having those, I don't want to say flaws. I don't have a better word for those. So, you know, those unique characteristics, um, and one example I've joked about before, and it may very well may have been you. I can't remember. I think it was somebody from LinkedIn. I'm talking about a client they were working with and his. The presentations were like two polished in a short videos. And so they weren't relatable. And so the, you know, his advisor coach said, you know, when your next and your next screen pick your nose and he's like, he's like, why would I pick my nose? And he's like, just do it. And so like on his next thing is just like, you know, digging for gold for quick half second. And then he said that had the most engagement of any of his recent videos at any time because people hung on a little bit longer to watch what was next. I remember watching a speaker and she was talking and. Or the entire time of like the 10 minute speech I know that she never ever said, and I was like, Oh my gosh, let me just keep listening for the I'm. Like I, and I was like all the time and not once. And after a while, is it, this is so robotic. And I, by the end of it, I was like, okay, I didn't hear a single arm. Do you remember what she said? I don't even know what she said. Yeah, no doubt. You know what, you know, what my crutches, uh, aside from the obvious, um, you know, I think, I think, I think there's like a balance because ums are okay when, when you're just like moving forward. And so I think, I think it's like, what you don't want to do is overthink it and then have that kind of, um, you just want to have the forward momentum. Um, but one thing that I've noticed in doing conversations like this and having my editor work on the podcast and, um, I'll repurpose some of the content. And so sometimes I'll say, Hey, Go transcribe everything. And then I'm going to just scan it real quick and like find highlights of things that I'm making to an Instagram image or whatever. And so as I go through those, I say like a crap ton. I really like is my, um, and then you don't notice it until you go back and listen to minutes. It's like every, every 20 seconds, like, like, but that's me. There you go. There's there's there's my, and you were asking for like, you know, does one start to be better at these things? You know, the, the first thing is to really understand who you are driving your brand. So like getting, doing your own self assessment, as well as doing assessment of your feedback network. When people to, to tell you what they see, what they like, what they think are challenges for you, that information is incredibly invaluable. And so, you know, whenever I work with people, I would say, look, you know, diamond your brand, do the assessments and get people to give you feedback. It's a goal of mine for you to understand what your brand is and to help you figure out what you want your brand to go. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, why don't we talk about TEDx a little bit. We've had some other TEDx speakers. Why don't you walk us through the process? Because I think the process is a little bit unique to what people probably assume the processes. Um, so why don't you touch on the process and then maybe talk about, um, you know, what you thought your experience was like? Well, I think for the most part, I mean, uh, the first I've done five TEDx talks and the first four kind of came because I had really strong thought there's a brand. So people reached out to me and said, Hey, can you do one of the, okay. Uh, it's daunting though. Cause the first time I remember I did one and they said, okay, tell us, tell us the best idea of your life. Go deep dive in your personal story. Um, and minimal slides. And I love my PowerPoint. My middle slides do it, do it in 18 minutes. And I was like, Holy cow, that's really intimidating. And, and it's free. We're not going to pay you. So you know that first Ted talk, I spent hours and hours and hours on it and I rehearsed it 30 times. And, Oh my gosh, I was so nervous because many times, as you say, I'm. Oh, who knows, but like, you know, I was, it was about that and it went, it went well. I mean, at the time, but I was super nervous. And so I think that, you know, that is an important piece now in terms of the process, the fifth Ted talk in, cause I saw there was a fee and the theme was power connection, which again is my hashtag and my brand. It's like, Oh, I gotta apply for this one. So I applied for it. Got it. Um, so what'd you do, do you typically apply and do a full, full application where you talk about what your ideas? It has to be really simple and easy to understand, like in a couple of lines and then they want to know why it's important to the world. This is all important. You have to explain how it's unique. So, you know, taking you through the application processes, it's very important. You have to make sure it aligns the theme and they organize this, get it, and they get really excited about it. And then once that happens, then usually they want to meet with you and, you know, flesh out the idea a little more and see how, if you're open to making some adjustments to coachable, and then usually you get accepted to right away and they start training on the, on the old platform. And, um, they'll, they'll begin to give you coach and I've coached speakers too for Ted talks as well. And, uh, you know, they really focused on the storytelling and the rehearsal and just being yourself and not trying to be someone that you're not, I think that's an important piece. Yeah, for me, it's been a great experience. I mean, when I first did, I didn't know what it was, but now I see the brand relevance. It's certainly a, has been a big part of my brand in terms of what people know about me and what they like about me. So I certainly leverage it. And that's also why I encourage other people to go do one too. Cause I think everyone has a story and a really cool Ted talk within them. It's just a matter of trying to extract and find out what it is. Yeah. A couple of things I wanna touch on. Um, it's it's w one comment is it's interesting that you say that there's like, TEDx coaches or they walk you through, like, here's the process because now that you say that there is a very concise there's consistency in the presentation, and I've never thought about that before, about people on totally different talks about totally different presentations. There's still some element of consistency, um, in how it's presented, which now I assume is because of the TEDx people going here's the flow. And here's how these things happen. Culture there. Yeah. Um, I'm curious, you said the first one was something about, you know, best thought of your life, I think is what you said. Um, so what, what was that all about? What, what was the, uh, theme of the presentation? Like, is it best out of your life that you've actually executed? Was it best. Personal thing, was it best business thought? Yeah. They want to know what's the best idea of your life that you have that you want to share on the stage. And so, you know, when I looked through everything I was doing, I came up with connection. So I said, you know, I said, how do you create deep, authentic connection with people? And we kind of broken down the idea that my wife. Tell me, which was like, you know, how's it, you meet people. And within 30 minutes, they're telling you the entire life story and then talking about their finances and their sex lives and everything. How do you do that? And I'm like, I don't know. Uh, let me think about this. And then I combined kind of my own personal experiences along with what I saw from Bernie Brown, which had research around being vulnerable and being deep and creating that connection. Well, you know what, I'm going to talk about how I create the book connection. So I turned into a home when I called the five CS of connection. Got it. Yeah. Now I think one of the obvious questions a lot of listeners are going to ask is, um, Bobby, how do I get on TEDx? Yeah. So, I mean, I think the best way to help you is to tell you where people go wrong when it comes to I let this great Ted talk. So the first thing is your topic idea is always the thing that people screw up. So I want to talk about love. I want to talk the importance of sales. I want to talk about the problems of mindset. You know, those are such generic topics that everyone's talking about. That's not going to work. I'm a perfect example where it does work is there was a guy came up with how Ninja philosophy applies to sales. That's a great slant. Hmm. So are they have a unique idea or unique slant? So having the right idea, I would say 80% people would tell me their TEDx idea is not good, or it's not going to work. It need some, you know, it needs some changing on the subtle bit of massaging, you know? So I think that that's the first thing. The second thing is. Is building a strong thought, there's your brand. So people know who you are and they know your content and see you speak. That's how I got my first four. Cause people love my content. Love my stuff out there. So easy to be doing that too. And then the third thing I think that really helped is to get to know organizers that run TEDx on this because they're the ones that will know you and will think of you and maybe, you know, pitch you and give you a spot. Uh, which again, what happened to me the first four times days, the organizers looked like my stuff and brought me a spot. Uh, on, on their stage. I think that, and then that, I think that's another one. And then the last thing that's really important is you have to look at themes. Every TEDx event and conference has a theme. Sure. That your idea or your ideas. Cause I have two in my head that I still am going to pitch in the feature. You want to make sure it aligns to the theme really, really well, because that's also going to get, uh, get you there. And then the secret, the one secret I'll give you the last one. Which is most TedTalks, always aim for the 18 minutes. If you have a three minute talk that is goals, people are they're dying for those short ones. No, there's a famous Ted talk with a guy with the, with the, with the, the paper towel, right? He's like, just shake your hands three times, right. And use paper and use less paper towel. This will save, you know, millions of sheets of paper towel every year. It's a simple idea, but it was a great Ted talk. Right? So, so the 18 minute mindset, that's the people that are aspiring to be on. Those are the people that are stuck at 18 minutes, or whether they're trying to maximize the time they have. And that's nice and all, but an organizer would love to have shorter talks. And so if you have a shorter talk that's three or six minutes long, you actually have a much better chance of getting on stage. So generally speaking TEDx says, Hey, you have up to 18 minutes. Correct. Got it. Okay. Very interesting. Well, Bobby, I appreciate your time. I think this has been, um, you know, an interesting conversation. I like all the little things we touched on. I, you know, you and I are obviously connected on LinkedIn, but being able to chat in person, virtually in person, um, you know, there, there's a lot of common ground that I can appreciate and how you present things and, you know, the whole goal of just being authentic. And it's always refreshing to get another person to come reinforce that on the show. So. Thanks for jumping on learning from others. And I'll give you the last few moments to tell our listeners how they can find out more about you. Sure. And thanks so much. I really appreciate that with YouTube. You know, people can find me on my LinkedIn pages and profiles where they can follow me. You that you can also check out my website  dot com and dyp.ca and on social media, I'm everywhere. So Twitter, Instagram, Facebook under the handle. Radon Bobby. Very cool. We'll put those in the show notes, Bobby Omar. Thanks so much. Thank you.

Interested in working with me? Send a message to me on Instagram at @jamiemswanson and let's see if it'd be a good fit! Show Transcript: When I was first starting out, I just created how to content. That was super helpful for my people, but that didn't build desire for my products, but now everything is different. The brightest entrepreneurs know how to make content that both creates desire for their product, builds up their authority as the expert and provides real value to the person it's created for want to know how. [00:00:27] I will tell you, in this episode, most entrepreneurs when they're first starting their business, feel like they need to create how to content so that they can teach their audience how to do a specific thing. Number one, it does prove their expertise. And so it shows that they are an authority worth following. That's definitely true. And two, it does give a ton of value. [00:01:22] But if you share too much, you might only attract freebie seekers and not actual buyers. They may not even need your product if you give them so much on the front end. And this is something that I see happening all the time, people get so much free content because the entrepreneur really wants to prove that they know their stuff that. [00:01:46] They it's, it's overwhelming. They get full, they don't need your product because they can't even get through all of your free stuff. So how do you know how much to share for free and what should be reserved for your paid customers? And know it's not just giving away the what and selling the, how, like so many people teach in the online marketing space. [00:02:09] How do you intentionally build desire for your products and each piece of content you create? Well, first you enter the conversation that they're having in their minds so that you can attract the right kind of person like we discussed in the last episode, this, you create transformation based content that helps them become the bright future identity. They want to be that I talked about an episode three of this season, just a few episodes back. [00:02:39] They aren't that person yet, but becoming that person would make their future brighter. That's why I call it the bright future identity. It's basically why they feel imposter syndrome. So for example, maybe they're an entrepreneur, but they don't feel like a legitimate entrepreneur yet because they're just starting out and haven't had enough success in their minds to feel like a true entrepreneur. [00:03:03] They feel like an imposter. So when you're content, you want to highlight the transformation that needs to happen for them to get from where they are now, to where they want to be in order to become that bright future identity. And you want to position your unique product or service as the way to get that transformation and become the person they're dreaming of being. [00:03:25] Okay. So let's use the first episode I recorded in season three, as an example, where I shared my plan from going from zero to $30,000 per month in just 90 days. Now I entered the conversation by talking about pivoting, due to COVID, which lots of people are dealing with right now. My goal is to get entrepreneurs, to hire me for a clarity coaching day. [00:03:49] And to help them create a step by step strategy that they can be confident in and follow to grow their business. Something that's completely aligned with who they are and customized so that they get the most results as easy as possible for them. So I talk about the difference between where I was when I was first starting out and where I am now as a bright entrepreneur who gets it, it and has been successful in the past. [00:04:15] I shared how I'm doing things differently and hope to make 30,000 a month in less than 90 days after starting over completely from scratch. And I shared what I know now that makes is it truly feel possible versus who I was. It was when I was just starting out and couldn't even fathom making $30,000 in a month. [00:04:36] So when I explained that having a clear step by step plan, that fully aligns with who I am and that I can follow confidently without second guessing myself. And when I explained that that makes all the difference, , it just built huge desire for people to have that because really. That does make the difference. [00:04:55] That is the massive difference between now and then. So naturally for people who I want to be a successful bright entrepreneur, but who don't have that clarity. And aren't sure if they're doing it right, or why things aren't working the way they hoped they would, they want to have a plan to like, of course they want to have that certainty. [00:05:15] So I implicitly highlighted where they fall short and I'm offering my product. As the way to transform them into this successful bright entrepreneur, they want to be. Plus I've proven my expertise by clearly showing the difference between the two, right. I've offered to help them create their own plan for their own business. [00:05:35] So they can be that bright entrepreneur as well. Do you see how powerful that is? I mean, I know that that's just laying out what I did, but [00:05:43] when you consistently create transformation based content that helps them see how to become the bright future they want to have and position your unique product or service as the best way to get there. It really makes people want to buy your product and when they want your product and believe it can help them become the person they want to be. They will rearrange their budget to find a way to pay for it and make it work. Trust me on this one, I have seen this several times over. [00:06:11]You simply need to contrast the difference between who they are now and who they want to become and tell them how your product can help them get there. Here's the real key. Don't just focus on what they need to do, but focus on identity shifts and beliefs as well. Our identity isn't, it's what we do. [00:06:28] It's also what we believe, feel, and understand. It's so much deeper than what we just do. Then don't forget the most important part. Right? You've got to put a call to action at the end to tell them what you want them to do next. So if you're doing this right, it's going to make people want to buy your stuff. [00:06:48] If you're running a closed membership, or course that's not open right now where they can't buy it, then make sure to tell them how to join your waitlist. Or how to get involved in any of the free communities you have or if they can purchase it right now, tell them how to do that. I use a similar format, almost every time for these podcasts, with just small changes, I call it my transformation based content framework. You enter the conversation. You show the transformation between where your client is now and how they can become the bright future identity. [00:07:19] Then you position your stuff as the way to bridge the gap. And you follow that up with a call to action, telling them. What steps to take next. It's so easy and non pushy, and it makes people want to do it. They want to buy your stuff. They want to do whatever it is you're calling them to do in the call to action. [00:07:39]Have you noticed how I do this naturally and confidently at the end of every episode? Do you invite people to hire me for clarity coaching day, listen, closely, watch what I'm doing. Right. Think about how it would feel if you had this complete content strategy that attracts the right people, builds desire for your product and gets them to become more and more engaged in your business. [00:08:00] So, if you can see how valuable that would be to your bit business, how much time and second guessing it save you. And if you already have a product that gets your customers results, just know you don't have to create this strategy alone. Let me help you. You, I am insanely talented at it and I can walk you through creating a content strategy that best uses this transformational content, same work. [00:08:25] Right? So. If you are a bright entrepreneur who doesn't just want to make a profit, but really wants to make a real impact in the world with your business. I'd love to help you do that. If you want to stop second guessing yourself and have that step by step content plan, that's fully customized to be lightened easy for you. [00:08:44] Just check out the show notes, to get my contact information, send me a message, letting me know you're interested. And if I have any open spots, which I only have two per week, so. Often they're booked, but if I do have any that are open, we will set up a free 30 minute call. We're all asking you a bunch of questions about your business to help discover where you should be focused in your business right now. [00:09:07] And if I can help you reach your goals, if we both feel like it's a good fit, we're going to schedule a clarity coaching day with each other and create a step by step strategy for you to follow it, to grow your business. So just head on over to the show notes right now and send me a message. By the way, if you're new around here and found this helpful, please take a moment to subscribe right now. [00:09:28] So you don't miss any future episodes. It means a ton. If you took a moment to also leave a review, but at the very least subscribe, I will occasionally be reading some reviews here on the podcast. And I would really love to feature you like this one from beta, who was one of my bright future method, workshop students. [00:09:46] So she gave me five stars. She said so refreshing and much needed for entrepreneurs. I love this podcast. Jamie is so down to earth, funny and real about the strategies entrepreneurs face and how to overcome them. There are so many amazing nuggets of info and helpful advice in every single episode. She doesn't waste any time with fluff or super long intros. [00:10:09] She dives right into the topic at hand, and isn't afraid to share examples of ups and downs from her own business. Peter. Thank you so much for your kind words and for leaving a five star review, it's been awesome to watch your journey for the rest of you. I hope you found this helpful and we'll check out the show notes and consider hiring me for a clarity coaching day. [00:10:29] I would love to work with you and make things clear for you and help you have a strategy for making the most of this transformation based content framework. Take it, use it, try it, see how it works for you so that you can make. A bigger impact in the world. We are brighter together. My friend, the world needs us. [00:10:47] So let's make it brighter.

Don't underestimate the power of your work samples, and you'll learn why in this episode and how you need to be concerned with your work samples and the way that you send them to clients. I share examples of mistakes that many beginner freelancers make, including sending irrelevant work samples.  I will also explain why I feel it is a waste of time to send custom work samples. Here are some things we covered in this episode: How to avoid beginner mistakes with your work samples How good work samples can help you overcome lack of experience How to make the client feel like the work sample is a win for them Why you shouldn’t create custom work samples Why work samples should be related to what the client is asking for Have just enough samples to repurpose them Why you should never overwhelm a client with too many work samples Why you should not direct people to your website for work samples How to deliver work samples The importance of reading into what your client says How often you should update your work samples After listening to this episode, share your action steps and take-aways with our group: Mastering Your Freelance Life With Laura Connect With Laura: Follow Laura on Facebook Join Laura’s Community Subscribe to the Podcast Subscribe to Laura’s YouTube Channel Read the Transcript: It's that time again, for another episode of the Advanced Freelancing Podcast. And today, our episode is all about something that I strongly recommend freelancers do every summer and honestly, every six months when you can fit it in. And that is updating your work samples. Don't underestimate the power of your work samples, and you'll learn why in this episode and how you need to be concerned with your work samples and the way that you send them to clients. There's no doubt that we're living in an information rich world. We are bombarded with information from the moment we wake up until the moment we go to sleep, right? And your clients are no different. So you have to be very selective about the kinds of information that you share with your clients. And a great example of this are your work samples. Your work samples can overcome a lot of challenges, whether you're starting scaling or pivoting into a new freelance service area altogether, they help to tell the client a lot about what it's like to work with you and your overall style. (01:02): So when you have other challenges that you're facing such as you're just starting your business and you don't have any feedback or a great deal of experience yet good work samples can help you to overcome that. I see a lot of mistakes around the use and sending of work samples and so much like how you do your pitch and how you do your proposal and your phone call work samples are another great example where this should be client facing and client specific. You might have pieces of yours that you think are great and will work really well for work samples. But the truth is that the client has to care about it. And the client has to feel like this is a win for them when they see the work samples as well. So try to pull yourself out of the equation a little bit and leave some extra room for the work samples to be the thing that's going to be the most powerful for the client at that particular or point in time. (01:57): So I've looked at hundreds and hundreds, probably even thousands at this point have work samples that people have sent into me either because I was hiring for a contractor position myself, or I was screening somebody for a nonprofit operation, freelance or a client asked me to help hire somebody to help them with the completion of a project. And every time that I do a project like that, I use multiple different sources, right? I might look on Upwork. I might look on LinkedIn. I might post in certain Facebook groups. I might go to trusted partners. For example, when I'm hiring virtual assistants, who I know have a lot of different resources at their fingertips, from virtual assistants that are in their paid leads communities. And one thing that I find again and again, with all kinds of freelancers is that far too many people send work samples that are irrelevant or work samples that are just too high in number. (02:54): So let's start with the first example of work samples that are irrelevant when you can't send something that is reasonably similar to, or related to what the client is talking about or what they could use to make their decision. It leads into that dangerous territory of them being uncertain or unsure. And the result of that is that they won't take any forward action. So what I mean by this is if the work sample is indicative of the kind of work you do, but it's so far outside of what the client asks for or what you are pitching, that's only going to be confusing for them, right? So if you are pitching logo design, you don't need to send an example of a website or a flyer or a PDF that you designed when a simple, like a one page sheet of some of the best logos you've designed would have sufficed, right? (03:48): So this gets really confusing for clients, particularly in industries where there's lots of different variations of things. One, a great example of this is writing. So if I'm hiring a sales copywriter, for example, I need to see some form of sales copy from them. It doesn't mean it needs to be in my industry. It doesn't have to be exactly the same length as what I'm hoping they'll complete on the paid project with me, but it has to be related to the kind of style that I'm looking for. So a blog post could give me an overview of their overall ability to write, but that's not aligned with the specific skill that I'm seeking, which is sales copy. So if a client, it asks for very particular work samples, and even if they don't, but you know exactly what type of thing you're pitching, make sure that you're sending the work samples is most aligned with that particular job. (04:38): Now there's other people out there advocating for sending work samples and in particular, using Upwork by writing custom work samples for every single job that you pitched to. I do not know any new or experienced freelancer who has the time to do that 15 to 20 times a week. Right? So I do not advocate for doing that. I do not think you need to create a work sample that is really closely aligned to what the client's going to ask you to do and do that fresh every time with a new pitch. In fact, that's a huge waste of time. Um, actually, because there's no guarantee on places like Upwork, that you're actually going to get the client to respond to you. What I like to do is to create a set of samples. They can be reused and repurposed over and over again. So let's go back to that example of a writer. (05:26): If you do sales copy and you do proofreading and you do academic work, I would make sure that you have an aligned work sample for each one of those, right. A proofreading one could just be a document that you've tracked changes on and shown how you edit things. So it's important for a client to see something that is similar to what they are looking for, because otherwise they don't know if you have the specific skills. So another great example is in the world of graphic design, I recently hired a graphic designer to complete a speaking one sheet for somebody. And there were lots of examples in the portfolio of this person that convinced me, they had the visual ability, the knowledge of color, all of these types of things that made them a great designer overall. But I couldn't see any examples of the style of sheet that I was looking for. (06:14): Right. There were really colorful flyers and there were coupons and there were Facebook ad creative images, but I was looking for something very professional that would help to showcase the speaker at hand. And so when I further asked the designer for that information, she sent me something that wasn't perfectly aligned with the project, but it made total sense why she recommended it. She said, you know, here's a flyer I did for another client, um, promoting their upcoming speaking event. Um, they were doing a live training at the time. And so this is what we use to encourage people to come to the event. So not the same thing as the type of PDF that I would need the designer to make for me in this project, in which they'd be writing up reasons why event organizers and conference planners should hire the executive speaker that I'm promoting, but close enough in the same idea, right? (07:04): It's going to have the same level of professionalism. It's going to be about the same length and it's going to be very similar, right? So she did not have to go and create a whole new custom work sample and spend time and energy doing that, just to showcase that she knew about the kind of thing that I was looking for. I do this all the time when I'm pitching for clients. Um, I often have clients who will say, um, you know, show me your best personal injury blog, writing sample for legal blog writing. I might not have a personal injury sample at that point in time that I can use due to NDAs or whatever the reason might be. So I might say here are some bylined pieces that would be about the same length and depth of subject coverage as what you're asking for. (07:48): They're in consumer protection or they're in family law, but I'm recommending these as the work samples, because you'll get a really good perspective on how I approach legal issues and answer important questions for legal consumers. So that, that also gets back to this idea of like, you don't need to create custom samples. You need to have just enough samples where you can repurpose them and send them along to clients for the things you're pitching foremost. Now, if you submit a pitch twice a year for a type of project or are asked to do it and provide work samples, don't go out and create something custom, right? You don't need to do that. Um, but if it's something you're pitching for regularly, I like to have work samples. I like to have different versions of my resume. And of course I have different versions of my pitch and proposal options, depending on the specific (08:45): That's example, number one of a big mistake that you can make with your work samples, which is just having them be irrelevant, right? They're not in line with what the client needs to see to make a decision. And if we give a client data points that they can't use, and that's not helpful to them in making their final decision, we've made the process more difficult for them. And a confused client is not a client, whoever buys an example and problem. Number two, when it comes to your work samples are sending way too many. It's awesome. If you've designed 500 websites, it's an incredible accomplishment. If you have so many work samples that it's hard for you to decide what to send, but that doesn't eliminate the need to cut down on what you send. Just like a confused client, never buys an overwhelmed client is more likely to be nitpicky and not view all of your information instead of viewing things that you've specifically chosen for them. (09:43): So in this case, it's actually far better to send three to four work samples that are aligned with the style of the type of project, the skills in question, rather than saying, here's a link to my website portfolio with 50 different examples. This is the reason why clients don't have time. They are not going to go look at your website and 50 work samples. Whenever I'm hiring someone for my own business or on behalf of a client or somebody else, this probably eliminates a lot of people from the candidate pool without them even realizing it. So if I ask in a Google form, for example, in hiring a freelancer, please share the link to your two most relevant work samples based on all the information I've given you about the job at hand and their response is to say, here's the link to my website portfolio. (10:30): I'm not going to click it because I know what I'm going to see when I go there and you haven't put any extra thought into it. Now, if you put the link to your portfolio or to a specific piece in your portfolio or say, uh, click on the missing portfolio link, you want to see, um, the third thing down is super relevant, but even then you could have just sent the third thing in your portfolio, right? You have a much higher chance of the client looking at the material when you have spoonfed it and delivered it right to them. You've been respectful of their time. You've done some strategic thinking about what the best thing to send to them is, and you've made it easy for them. This is especially important when you're competing against other freelancers. So when you're responding to a Facebook post that has a call for freelancers and contractors, where there's lots and lots of people applying when you're replying to a Craigslist ad or an indeed ad or an Upwork job posts, you're competing with other freelancers. (11:26): And if other freelancers more effectively and efficiently, get to the point and share the right samples before you do the client has a much higher likelihood of hiring them. So rather than sending 15, 2050 work samples choose the top three that are most relevant to the job at hand and explain why you're providing them, right? Because if the client doesn't have the right information, it's like to do one of those math problems that you got on the sat where they actually didn't give you all of the details you needed to come up with the equation or the solution to the equation, right? Clients get very frustrated with that. So if they're saying, Hey, I want to see your best example of a social media campaign. And you send something that's instead from running a Pinterest ad, that's confusing to the client because it's not the same thing as running an organic social media campaign. (12:21): And you've given them data that they don't know what to do with the best case scenario. They ignore it. And they're much more likely to just be confused by it. And again, remember our confused clients, don't buy our overwhelmed client, don't buy. So don't send me many work samples, do not just direct people to your website. That is not what your website is there for. The portfolio page of your website is there to show credibility. And it's there for people who have landed on your website in a paid or an organic traffic way. It is not there for you to send people to when you're pitching other things, because they won't go there. They're too busy and they don't know what they're going to get by clicking on that. So it's much easier to just say, Hey, here's the two samples that I chose to apply to this particular job with. (13:07): And here's why, so I recently was in a situation speaking with a freelancer who was applying for a position that called for a variety of different skills, right? So I didn't ask for specific work samples and say, Oh, this one is most important. I need to see an email marketing campaign, or I need to see a social media audit. But after speaking with me, he read between the lines and said, Hey, based on what we discussed, I put together a quick sample email newsletter for you. And I ran a report on the engagement metrics of the Twitter page in question. So that showed that he has the strategic mind to recognize that it's not in his best interest to send me the work samples of everything he's ever done. He's using the pain points and the clues that I gave him on the call to decide which work samples to send. (13:56): I see this all too often. So many different kinds of freelancers, and yes, it's really easy to be like, go to my website.com/portfolio, or here's a folder with 16 different samples in it. Don't do that. Send them the link to the exact samples that you want them to see, make it easy, easy for them to view it. Do not send it as an email attachment because people get weird about attachments and that can get you flagged as being spam. So send a Dropbox link, send a Google drive, link something that they are more likely to click and open, but make it be strategic. And it should go without saying that your work samples should be the absolute best work you have. If you spent 20 minutes putting it together, the client can tell that. And what is the point for them to use that, to evaluate you for a position they are far more likely to decide not to work with you at all. (14:48): So if you put any effort into something in your business, it really should be your pitch and your work samples. They work really well together to convince a client that they, the client should give you a chance. And it's really, really unfortunate for me when someone has a great pitch and they have a great profile and great experience, but it falls apart on the work samples because the work samples were sloppy. They have mistakes in them, or they were sent, you know, 2,500 times. And I don't know which one is most important as the prospective client. So I just click on a random one that random one might not be your best work. So make it easy for the client to see that you've read into what they've written, read into what they've said, and that you've selected a work sample that is most in line with that. (15:33): I strongly recommend going back and updating your work samples a minimum of every six months, because you get better. You work on cooler projects, you have more examples to work with. And as your skills improve, you want to capture that in your work samples and provide clients, things that are the most relevant for you. Now that six month period is also a good opportunity to say, have I been doing any new services that I need to create work samples for, or that I need to create case studies for? Because now I've worked with my first handful of clients and I have some early results, keep this information updated. You know, um, as a writer, sometimes I go back and look at some of my previous writing samples and I'm shocked anyone hired me, right? Because they were terrible, right? They weren't terrible when I started, because that was the best I could do. (16:18): But as I've sharpened my skills, I don't want that to be representative of my work. And I know that as a freelancer, you're constantly improving. You're taking feedback, you're learning new things, taking courses, uh, implementing those skills at a higher level. And we want clients to know that as you transition farther and farther away from being a beginner, don't make those beginner mistakes with your work sample. Thanks for tuning into another episode of advanced freelancing. If you're not as pumped as I am about the launch of the six figure freelancer book in October, I don't even know why you're listening. Right? So check out six figure freelance book.com. You're going to learn more about what's in the book. It's over 70,000 words of actionable strategies based on my experience, my experience, coaching and insight from 19 other six-figure freelancers. You're going to love the book and there's some really cool resources that go along with it now is the perfect time to preorder. So again, check out six figure freelance book.com. Let me know what you think. Meet Laura: Laura Briggs is empowering the freelance generation. Through her public speaking, coaching, and writing, she helps freelancers build the business of their dreams without sacrificing all their time, family, or sanity. Laura burned out as an inner-city middle school teacher before becoming an accidental freelancer with a Google search for “how to become a freelance writer.” Since then, she’s become a contributor to Entrepreneur, Business Insider, and Writer’s Weekly. She worked for more than 300 clients around the world including Microsoft, Truecar, and the Mobile Marketing Association. She’s delivered two TEDx talks on the power of the freelance economy for enabling freedom and flexibility and how it’s being used to address the technical skills gap in the U.S. Laura is the host of the Advanced Freelancing podcast, a sought-after public speaker on the gig and digital freelance economy, and a freelance coach focused on aspiring six-figure freelancers. Laura’s books, courses, and coaching have reached over 10,000 people. As a military spouse, Laura is passionate about serving her community and founded Operation Freelance, a nonprofit organization that teaches veterans and military spouses how to become freelancers and start their own business.

You may find that like most entrepreneurs, you’re getting stuck in the weeds of your business instead of taking a big step back and thinking about strategy. In today's episode, Roland shares the things that he and his partners do to grow their 26 businesses. This episode will give you a slew of ideas to help you find your next growth (and end-game) strategy, no matter which stage of the business lifecycle. “Just so you know, this stuff only works among every business you can imagine”. Roland Frasier. If you love this show and it helps you with your business(es), head over to our home page (https://businesslunchpodcast.com/) and sign-up for news and exclusive opportunities. It would also really help us get the word out if you would subscribe and write a review on ApplePodcasts. The 4’ Growth Stages’ Of Business The Business Life Cycle. Take a listen as Roland explains the first four of six stages, what they focus on in each, and the strategies they implement that you can also use. 1. Start-Up 2. Traction 3. Constraints 4. Growth Three Major Concepts To Focus On In These Growth Phases Building Revenues Building Profits Building Value. What does your business need? Plus, Listen For, • Why Roland and his partner ALWAYS build their businesses with an Exit in mind. “We’re always thinking about how we will ultimately exit the business because 98% of businesses don’t pass through multi-generation. So the best thing you can do is build it up to a lot of value and then sell it and then do it again.”. Roland Frasier • The easiest way to get a whole bunch of new customers. “Buy your competitor. And I’ll talk about how you can do that without paying anything for it. By your suppliers, buy your clients, buy out your partners, take cost centers, and turn them into profit centers.” Roland Frasier • A trap many E-Commerce companies find themselves in, and how to get out and beat competitors. “It’s hard to grow an E-comm business because you sell the stuff you’ve got, and then you need to buy more media, and then you need to buy more of the stuff that you had before. But now you need more, because you’re buying more media, and you need more people to fulfill it. Right? So until you sell that business, it’s tough to take any significant money out of it! But, if you add a digital product to that, what’s the margin on a digital product? It’s 100%. So if you can add some digital products to the physical products you’ve got, that’s a fantastic way for you to fight margin compression.” Roland Frasier And so much more! “So if you just think about these things in your business, you really can grow a business fast. Think on a  strategy level and look for the leverage.” Roland Frasier. Follow Roland Frasier On Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/rolandfrasier)  Through his website (https://www.rolandfrasier.com/) Follow Business Lunch Podcast On Twitter (https://twitter.com/bizlunchpodcast) Thanks so much for joining us this week. Want to subscribe to Business Lunch with Roland Frasier? Have some feedback you’d like to share? Leave us an honest review! Your feedback will help us improve the show, and connect us with more high flyers like you. You can find us on all of the podcast players, right here, https://linktr.ee/firecircle.

Neil discusses the pleasure of medical touch. Designer/entertainer Isaac Mizrahi consoles us that at least Stephen Sondheim isn't the best bridge player. ABOUT THE GUEST Isaac Mizrahi has worked extensively in the entertainment industry as an actor, host, writer, designer, and producer for over 30 years. He is the subject and co-creator of Unzipped, a documentary following the making of his Fall 1994 collection which received an award at the Sundance Film Festival. He hosted his own television talk show The Isaac Mizrahi Show for seven years, has written two books, and has made countless appearances in movies and on television. Mizrahi has directed productions of A Little Night Music and The Magic Flute for the Opera Theatre of St. Louis and has also performed cabaret at Café Carlyle, Joe’s Pub, West Bank Café, and City Winery locations across the country. He currently serves as a judge on Project Runway: All-Stars and his memoir, I.M., was published in February 2019. ABOUT THE HOST Neil Goldberg is an artist in NYC who makes work that The New York Times has described as “tender, moving and sad but also deeply funny.” His work is in the permanent collection of MoMA, he’s a Guggenheim Fellow, and teaches at the Yale School of Art. More information at neilgoldberg.com. ABOUT THE TITLE SHE’S A TALKER was the name of Neil’s first video project. “One night in the early 90s I was combing my roommate’s cat and found myself saying the words ‘She’s a talker.’ I wondered how many other gay men in NYC might be doing the exact same thing at that very moment. With that, I set out on a project in which I videotaped over 80 gay men in their living room all over NYC, combing their cats and saying ‘She’s a talker.’” A similar spirit of NYC-centric curiosity and absurdity animates the podcast. CREDITS This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund, Western Bridge, and the David Shaw and Beth Kobliner Family Fund Producer: Devon Guinn Creative Consultants: Aaron Dalton, Molly Donahue Mixer: Fraser McCulloch Visuals and Sounds: Joshua Graver Theme Song: Jeff Hiller Website: Itai Almor & Jesse Kimotho Social Media: Lourdes Rohan Digital Strategy: Ziv Steinberg Thanks: Jennifer Callahan, Larry Krone, Tod Lippy, Sue Simon, Jonathan Taylor TRANSCRIPTION NEIL: Isaac Mizrahi, thank you so much for being on She's A Talker. I really appreciate it. ISAAC: So happy to do it. NEIL: I'm curious, today, May 15th, what is something that you find yourself thinking about? ISAAC: May 15th. I think about, of course, I think what everybody else is thinking about at the moment. Like, what the hell is going on? Really! What the hell is going on? It's so scary. Like, I was looking at Instagram, I follow this one dancer, this one beautiful dancer called David Hallberg. I love him, he's an old friend of mine. Anyway, so I was following him and I was looking at pictures of him dancing on stage in a costume with other dancers thinking like, “Excuse me? Will we ever get to go to a theater again?” I know that's really what I'm thinking. A lot about theater and how much I love theater, opera, ballet. So that's what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about David Hallberg in tights. NEIL: That's inspiring. ISAAC: I know. Never will I ever see David Hallberg in tights again. NEIL: May it be soon. May it be soon. ISAAC: I know, may it be soon! Exactly. NEIL: So that's what you're thinking about on May 15th. Do you have kind of like a recurring thought that seems to return to you? ISAAC: You know, I gotta say the recurring thing that I think about, especially in May, is my dog who died on May 12th, 2016, right? Since May 12th, I've been thinking about my first dog called Harry. My screen saver on my phone is still Harry and Dean, who we got, I don't know, six or seven years later. We got a second dog called Dean. And Dean is still with us. And he's aging now. I'd say he's like 14 or 15, and we have a younger dog named kitty. (dogs barking) Oh, there they are on cue! That's funny. All right, Dean, relax. He's a beagle mix so he’s very talkative. NEIL: I love it! Well, it's perfect for the podcast called She's A Talker. ISAAC: I know! She's A Talker! She's A Talker! And it's so funny because kitty, the bitch, is not a talker at all. She rarely opens her mouth. I was going to say that I was thinking about my screensaver and then I was thinking about, Jesus, when he goes, right, I don't know when that's going to happen, five years from now or seven years from now. When he goes, what would my screensaver be? To me, that screensaver is the truth of my life. It's those two dogs together in this house, in Bridgehampton. I have to say, like, I don't have a big fabulous mansion in Bridgehampton. I have a shack that I love! That's my home! And I've been here since the middle of March thinking, “Do I care if I ever see my apartment again?” Which is fabulous, the third-best apartment in the whole city or something, you know? And I keep thinking like, “Do I need to see that place again?” No, I would rather just be here now. But I think a lot about the dog situation! Like, when Dean goes does that mean that my screensaver has to change? Right? Because the truth of my life, the truest moment of my life is being here with Dean and Harry, even though he's still not here. Isn't that weird? His ashes are here. Harry’s ashes are on my shelf, in the den. I know it's a little morbid. Did we expect for She's A Talker to get so morbid today? NEIL: Oh, I'm fully prepared to go there, and also that doesn't feel morbid at all! That feels comforting. And it's interesting, you know, the show is based on these index cards I've been writing down over the years and one of the cards, I can't remember it exactly, is something about the different durations of our pets lives and our own lives. It creates a kind of musical counterpoint in that, you know, my partner is 12 years younger than I am, my husband, and my cat is five years and together we're all operating on these different lifespans. It feels somehow musical to me. ISAAC: Right. You know, I often think, especially, like, I've been writing more and more— I know this sounds insane to you probably. (dog barking) It sounds insane to Dean, but I've been writing a novel. I finished at the Carlyle February 8th or something like that. Then I had like four days off and I felt like, “Okay, what am I going to do?” I feel I’m in postpartum depression, I have to start something. So I started writing this novel that I've been taking notes about and thinking about for 30 years or something. And the more I think about writing, the more I think about what you're saying, which is if you stories going on, if you have simultaneous stories going on, you know the characters affect each other in this way. So the timeline you're talking about, I often think about that. And especially now. Like, you know, my husband and I are not cohabitating through this. My husband is in the city. He preferred to shelter in the city. I couldn't face it. I couldn't do it. NEIL: Yeah. ISAAC: Anytime I talked to him on the phone, I think to myself this thought that you're saying. This timeline thing, this emotional timeline of what's going on in his life. Because he has this whole other 90% of something else that's going on. You know what I mean? Like we think that's going along in parallel lines, but it isn't, and yet it works. My husband and I, we have separate bedrooms and I feel like we need that for a lot of different reasons. And we're comfortable. Like, I always kind of spoke about the fact that I was an insomniac and that's what kind of prescribed the separate bedroom thing. But it's not so much about that as much as, like, really sort of standing for the fact that we have separate lives, you know? I mean that. That's a really, really important part of our partnering. NEIL: Next card is— I'm going to mention this person's name and maybe bleep them out. It's really within the context of adoring their work, but— How the third story in ****’s latest collection is a little bit disappointing, but that feels like a relief from the relentless virtuosity. Do you ever have that feeling about like where something is so masterful, where it falters a little bit it's almost like— ISAAC: And you go like “phew,” yes. Thank goodness they're human. I have, but I can't think of any real examples of it. I will tell you I'm sort of friends with Steve Sondheim, right? Literally, he has never written anything bad. Like you can't find anything bad. But I played Bridge with him a long time ago. We used to play bridge and he wasn't the best bridge player. And that made me feel a little bit better. NEIL: Another card says: The technical differences between a performer being naked versus wearing a bodysuit; How that probably gives rise to a lot of fetishes. ISAAC: What a hilarious question on so many levels. That is a hilarious thing to ask. Dance belts, thongs, sports bras... Talk amongst yourselves, right? That's basically what you're doing. I think that people go to see dance shows not merely because it's an incredible art form or it's beautiful, but also because they're horny and it's like a sexy thing. NEIL: Of course, yeah. ISAAC: It's a really sexy thing to watch people dance. You see like body parts jiggling, you see butts, you see titties, you see, like, baskets on men. The weights of these things. I do. Of course, you can scream, you can laugh at me, but I swear, like, a large percent of what I have been doing all these years is that. You know, when I see a woman with beautiful legs and a tutu, I go like, “what?” You know, your legs just can't look any better than if you're wearing a tutu and pointe shoes. It just doesn't get better. Sometimes I design short short short tunics for boys so that when they fly up you get to see the flesh color dance. I mean, like, I just do because I'm a pervert and also because it’s beautiful! NEIL: Oh absolutely. ISAAC: It’s beautiful. But, by the way, you know, there've been times where I go like, “Oh, wouldn't it be great if this was naked?” You know? And, you know, it wouldn’t because then it's not about anything but the bodies, you know what I mean? Like, yes it’s all about the body, but it's not just about-— it's not only about a body. I rarely like naked dancing. There was one show I saw when I was a kid that I loved that was, oh, what's her name? It was Garden of Earthly Delights. That wonderful choreographer I can't remember. But they were all naked and I loved it. It was a great show. Cause it was set in the Garden of Earthly Delights! But yeah, I don't love nudity on stage. I never think it really has a place except to shock people, you know? NEIL: Mhm. But your talking makes me realize that something about— in a way it's about abstraction. You know, the bodysuit creates almost an abstraction of the body. Is that it? So you're not getting, like, balls and cock and ass and tits or et cetera, but you are— ISAAC: Yeah, maybe so! To me, the figurative is stronger than the literal. I don't know. I always feel like it's kind of a let down when you see someone without their clothes. NEIL: Absolutely. ISAAC: And I don't think it's an abstraction of a body. I think it's a kind of leveling of the body, and it's the best way to see the body. Sometimes I think the only great costume is a leotard. And the more I work as a costume designer, which I don't really do that much, I work with Mark Morris. Still, it's really interesting to me because we're really, really close friends. We're best friends. So it's really interesting for me to do that. I always love rehearsal clothes better than any costume you could possibly come up with anymore. It makes me focus better. Does that make sense? NEIL: Did you see that recent Cunningham documentary? ISAAC: Yes, I did. NEIL: The balance so many of those costumes struck between— You know, they were often bodysuits, but adorned and decorated. ISAAC: I was actually gonna bring up Merce because, you know, usually it was some kind of a bodysuit. I'm a huge Merce Cunningham fan. I loved that stuff so much growing up. I was there so often and, by the way, not liking it and not understanding it a lot too. It never stopped me from going. I kind of went so as not to understand everything. I didn't want this feeling of understanding when I went to see Merce. I wanted to be immersed in something. Almost like being immersed in your own organs or something. It's like the insides of your own body that you're looking at. NEIL: For me, Merce— I have such a similar relationship to the whole cognitive experience of watching Merce and not getting it. I almost feel like it's about a type of productive spacing out. Like, the ways in which I don't connect or the way it throws me back into my mind by virtue of not getting it is a productive space. Is that part of what you're saying, perhaps? ISAAC: Absolutely! Yes, 100%. One of the things I don't think a lot of choreographers answer is the question: Why the hell are we here? You know what I mean? Why are we here? Right. A lot of choreographers don't do that. Some of the best. And it bugs me. I can't work with them unless they can answer that question. And with Merce, the question doesn't even arise. You are there because you are there. To me, it transcended everything. I mean, that music, that idea about what art is, I mean, to me, it's what it is. And you know, for a long time, my favorite movie was 2001: A Space Odyssey because of the attraction and because of the wonderful coming together of this kind of futuristic look at something and this ancient look at something. Monoliths and space people and ape-men, et cetera. I thought it was this incredible thing. And then I saw it again and you know what? It didn't really age that well. I have to say it didn't stay with me. And if you look at Merce it not only ages well, it's just the most beautiful damn thing. It's as beautiful as anything you will ever look at. NEIL: I so agree. ISAAC: Graham doesn't age that well, does it? It's like a little drama. It looks great out of costume. If you ever get a look at Graham in rehearsal out of the costumes, it looks so beautiful. It looks so beautiful. NEIL: That makes sense because it adds to the melodrama, the costumes. ISAAC: Merce was just doing it all without costuming. You know, you look at some of the pivots, and some of the flexing, and some of the arched back, and that kind of deep, deep plié, and the relevé, everything on the relevé never touched. It's Martha Graham only without costumes and on steroids and an abstract— no subject matter, no story, nothing. You know? NEIL: Yeah. Yeah. Product placements: the kind of psychic work you have to do to get past them. How do you connect to that, if at all? Like when you're watching a TV show or a movie and you see— “Okay, there's that Coke.” ISAAC: Yeah, exactly. Right. You know, I think they're doing a really good job because I notice it less. You know? I notice it less. You know when I notice it? Is on, like, Ellen or something. Like talk shows? NEIL: Interesting. Uh-huh. ISAAC: I notice it a lot. You know, it's like, “Oh, who made that deal to use that spatula on the cooking segment?” You know what I mean? That's when I think about it. In the movie, I don't exactly think about it unless there's a giant product name. I don't know why, but it doesn't bother me. And I feel like they're doing a good job or something. They're doing a good job. NEIL: Well you know they're measuring it. God knows. ISAAC: I know. Or else I'm getting callous and I don't care or something. I don't judge a show by its ability to place a product without notice. But at a talk show, it's like, well, of course it's about— that's all it's about. Why else are you watching the talk show right now? It's to plug someone's new movie and someone's new spatula. Right? That's the only reason to have a talk show. NEIL: Do you have a favorite spatula? ISAAC: I do actually. My favorite spatula is an OXO Good Grips spatula. NEIL: Absolutely know what you're talking about. ISAAC: I love it. NEIL: I know you're into astrology and see, for me, I feel like, as a hardcore four planets in Virgo, that the spatula is the Virgo tool. ISAAC: Yes it is. You know I have a Virgo ascendant. Yes, NEIL: Yes. you're a Libra. Right? If I remember correctly? ISAAC: Yes, a Libra with a Virgo ascendant. NEIL: As a Libra, does your choice in kitchen tools connect at all to your— ISAAC: A few things. A few things that I adore. I have the best ice cream maker in the fucking world, it’s huge! And it makes basically a cup of ice cream, but it does— It's so great. When you turn it on the whole house vibrates and you know this ice cream is being churned. And I loved it so much I got another one for the city. So now I have two of these babies and I feel so rich. I feel like I’m a rich person because I could afford two ice cream makers, you know, like, of such quality. And then the other thing I have, which is so special and I love it: if you go on my Instagram page— speaking of product placement, Isaac Mizrahi! Hello? Hello!— So the thing is that I did this cooking segment. I made this really good pasta with— NEIL: With pork! I saw it! ISAAC: Yeah, exactly. And I have this wonderful sausage smasher. It smashes the sausage really effectively NEIL: Sausage smasher sounds like a euphemism somehow. ISAAC: Doesn't it? It sounds like something you would— like a terrible thing you call someone. NEIL: Okay. Another card is: I always feel the gesture of holding something away from my eyes to read it because I'm not wearing reading glasses somehow looks cool. Like I do it in front of students, but of course, it looks just the opposite, but I still haven't let go of it. ISAAC: No, you mustn't do that. You mustn’t. That ages you so much. You know what else ages you? If you wear glasses and, at some point, you look over your glasses to see something. NEIL: Oh, don’t do it. Don't do it. ISAAC: I remember, I'm not gonna mention any names, but I worked for an older designer at a time and he used to look over his glasses and I was like, “You're so old.” I came close to saying it to his face once. Like, you gotta stop doing that because it's just so aging, you know? Don't do it! Do not do it. NEIL: I'm thinking of your life in cabaret, this other world that you occupy. So how I wrote it down on the card is: The connection between camp and paying the check while performers are still singing at Joe's pub. And I know it's the cafe Carlisle as well. I remember seeing Justin Vivian Bond breaking my heart with a song, but, at the same time, the server is coming or I'm doing that tip. And somehow navigating that mental space between being moved by something on stage, but also having to negotiate this transaction feels like the essence of camp. ISAAC: You know, I honestly, and especially after that exhibit, shall we call it, last year at the Met called Camp, I don't know what the hell camp is. I always thought I knew what camp was and I always kind of understood that people associated a certain amount of camp with me because I embrace it. I do love camp but I don't know what it means anymore. You know? NEIL: Yeah. ISAAC: And so all I can say to you is I would never associate the word camp with the confluence of those two things happening at once. Like, you know, on stage singing a heartbreaking song with the fries coming and paying a bill. That's not, to me, campy. To me, that's ironic. And it doesn't detract because that's the understanding that you have as a performer in a nightclub. That’s the understanding that you have. The irony kind of adds to it. It makes it better in a certain way because all artists are there to be appreciated. Right? So if this person came and is sitting there and the agreement is that he can order food and he can pay his bills while you're doing what you're doing, then I say, “Bring it, bring it, bring it on.” I mean that. I never— I don't flinch when that happens because I think, you know, I'll tell you this one thing: I used to kind of be friends with Azzedine Alaïa a little bit, a little bit. Like, we had dinner three times. I said to him, “Oh, you know, this person was wearing the dress and she was wearing it with this bra—” and he was like, “Darling, I don't care if she's wearing it with a flower pot on her head, she bought the dress, bless her.” You know? And I was like, well, thank you Azzedine. You know, I thought that was a great piece of advice. Like as I age, I get less and less precious about certain things and more and more precious about other things that I didn't. One of them is not people paying attention to me on stage because if they already paid, they can do— I count the sleepers sometimes. I’m not kidding you, it’s like, “Oh she’s sleeping, he's sleeping…” And I'm counting people who are asleep. If you play a big room, you're going to have some sleepers. You know? And I go, “Hurray!” Because darling, some of the best sleep I ever got was at ballet or the opera or the theater. And I love the show, by the way. I come out thinking “That's the best show I ever saw in my life.” A) Because it was great. And B) because I got like a 10-minute nap and it was my favorite thing. NEIL: Yeah. And sleeping is a form of interactivity too. It's like an edit. ISAAC: Exactly. This is true. It's like a way of making it your own, shall we say? NEIL: Yes, yeah. ISAAC: Hooray! I'm glad we got that straight because I mean that. NEIL: I love that idea of the things that you become more precious about and less precious about. Does anything immediately come to mind as something else you've gotten less precious about or more precious about with age? ISAAC: I've got less precious about meet and greets and autograph signing. I’m much less precious about that. And I’ve gotten more precious about, like, what happens to me before a show, because I feel like I have to be in a certain space to do a show. NEIL: Mhm. ISAAC: I'm more precious now. Like I beg people to get me this or not offer me with that. You know, make sure that something is set up properly so that I can make my entrance because I feel like doing that thing that I do at the Carlyle or whatever I'm playing, you have to show up exactly right. Because if you don't show up exactly right they'll eat you alive. You have to really believe that you're not nervous. And in order to do that, you know, there's a lot of preparation. But now afterward, I can meet people, I can do meet and greets, I can sign autographs, I can do all that. In the fashion business, I hated doing meet and greets. I hated— I couldn't do trunk shows. God. I mean, like, really? I have to now sell the shit? Like I designed the shit, I showed the shit, I taught the shit, and now I have to sell the shit. I don't know why, but I feel like this is just on more of a personal level. Like, I guess I just like theater better. I like the theater better than I like fashion. It’s just better— Sorry. I'm old enough. I can judge. It's probably sour grapes. NEIL: Well, that's for you to decide. It doesn't sound like that. That sounds more like what artists do, which is that they have an evolving relationship to the forms that they engage with. Two last questions. What's a bad— I mean, it relates to this “what's precious, what's not anymore.” Fill in the blank for an X and Y: What's a bad X you would take over a good Y? ISAAC: I would take a bad episode of Mary Tyler Moore over, hm, oh, I shouldn't say this, over, a really, really good fashion show. NEIL: Cheers. Cheers. ISAAC: I mean it. I shouldn't say that, but I did. I said it. You got it. But could I tell you something apropos of Mary Tyler Moore? NEIL: Please. Anything. ISAAC: I have been inspired by Mary Tyler Moore before in my life and everyone knows that. So people think that that's all I think about and I live for or whatever, but, I mean, I watched the show when I was a kid a lot, whenever it was on. And then here and there, because it really wasn't one of those shows they reran to ad nauseum, you know? Anyway, I've been here since the middle of March. I swear to you, one of the first things I started doing was watching that show every single night. I watched like two or three episodes of the Mary Tyler Moore show starting from season one. By the way, it’s seven seasons of literally like 24 shows or 26 shows. So it's like 175 shows. NEIL: Wow. ISAAC: It is the most brilliant, heartbreaking, beautiful shit in the world. The writing is so unbelievable. The grasp on, like, the quality of comedy, but it's not really— I mean, comedy, yes, but it's so melancholy and it's so— it's like Peanuts, but adult Peanuts. You know, like, Charlie Brown or whatever. They're all kind of hapless and just, they're all bordering on depressed, and they're all so fucked up, and, like, so three dimensional, and they deliver you three jokes on every page. I mean, it is unbelievable. That's been getting me through. I watch whatever I'm supposed to watch on Netflix or whatever. You know, I get through all that, and then I put on Mary Tyler Moore right before I'm going to go to bed and I just watch the two or three episodes and I eat ice cream while I'm doing that. NEIL: Heaven. ISAAC: It’s heaven. Ice cream and the Mary Tyler Moore show, darling. I'm serious. NEIL: Finally: What's something you're looking forward to when this is over? ISAAC: Here's what I'm really looking forward to: David Hallberg or any male dancer in tights. Like, seeing that on stage. That's what I'm looking for. NEIL: I love it. May you have it soon. On that note, Isaac Mizrahi, thank you so much for being on She's A Talker.  

Auctions are dead. At least, that’s what the press seems to think about auction platforms. But Tophatter is experiencing something different. The platform that started as an auction platform for homemade goods is now expanding to include a variety of products and is looking more like a third-party marketplace. Sree Menon is the COO of Tophatter, a discovery and auction platform that is gamifying the Ecommerce experience. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Sree explains the way Tophatter has differentiated itself through gamification, fast, real-time auctions, and a customer engagement experience that users have embraced. She also provides insight any founder or CEO would need to know about the fundamentals of setting up an online marketplace — or any start-up for that matter — and she discusses the importance of unit economics and A/B testing.  3 Takeaways: The gamification of the buying process and the gamification of internal innovation are proven ways to create more engagement with your customers and your employees. Both will keep coming back if they are enjoying their experience, and creating a game-like environment helps build fun into everything It is impossible to build a marketplace or create a successful business without first understanding unit economics. It is good to have a story behind your business and a plan for where you want to go, but you need to have data points that prove that your story is true and that your plan will work out Retail consolidation is going to be a major factor in the coming years. There will be much more emphasis on creating omnichannel experiences that will completely change how we shop For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey everyone, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles from mission.org. Today we're joined by the COO at Tophatter, Sree Menon. Sree, welcome to the show. Sree: Oh hi, Stephanie. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be on the show. Stephanie: We are very excited to have you here. So I was looking at your background a bit, and it's very interesting. I would love it if we could start there, maybe telling us how you got into your role you are in now, and yeah, how you got there. Sree: Yeah. It's a very long, long career. I started in the online world, which I think is more relevant in this podcast at Dell. I used to lead the commercial online sales for Americas, Latin America, and North America. I was there for several years, perhaps nine years overall at Dell, six years in online, and then I moved to eBay, was the general manager for the motors group. It was an amazing journey. But I did know that I wanted to go and work at a smaller startup using the skills that I have, and that's what brought me to Tophatter. We are a discovery based shopping marketplace, and it's been an amazing journey, and I'm happy to talk more about that in this podcast. Stephanie: Cool. Yeah. I'm sure the shift from Dell and eBay was pretty immense from going to a smaller company. What was that like, and what kind of learnings did you take with you from Dell and eBay? Sree: So it's a great question. So the things that you take for granted at a big company are generally that, look, you're not worried about the fact that the startup may fail. There isn't that. There's a tremendous sense of security because you're working in a big company. There's of course a lot more pressure in terms of being able to communicate a lot about what you're doing, working with many, many different teams cross-functionally, and also, the time to market or the time to execute an idea is very long. It takes a lot of cycles. So when you go to a startup, it's absolutely the other way around. I hardly have any scheduled meetings every week kind of thing. It's mostly just, you need to solve a problem, and so you're meaning to kind of solve it or brainstorming on something. Sree: So the pace of innovation, the pace of executing is so much faster when you're in a small company. But of course, that kind of freedom also comes with a lot of responsibility, with a lot of pressure to meet numbers, to be able to understand the intricacies of the entire business and not just to function, and it's thrilling and exciting. Stephanie: Yep. Yeah. That's awesome. So for Tophatter, it kind of reminds me a little of eBay. But I would like to know, how is it different? Because eBay's auction business seems like it's kind of declining, but Tophatter seems like it's thriving. So how would someone think about what Tophatter is and how is it different? Sree: That's right. So eBay's auction, the way I think about it is, yes, as compared to the overall business, in terms of just eBay or how e-commerce has evolved as an industry, auction is probably a smaller portion. The way eBay was designed originally, let's go back to the historical context, it was largely a C2C business, right? Auctions work well in a C2C background or in any background or in any context where there isn't a fixed price or value of an item. It is what the buyer is willing to give you. So for instance, I have a Louis Vuitton which is five years old. I price it a lot in my mind. I think it's very precious to me. But that value may not be the same. It may not be perceived the same by a buyer. That's where an auction really fits in really well. Sree: Now, that's one use case. So from that perspective, I think eBay's still doing well in terms of that format when it comes to C2C, when it comes to very high word items, high value items like cars and stuff like that, used cars, again, things that don't have an MSRP. Now, in our context, the auction model helps because it's more of a gamification element versus here's the value of that item in terms of the emotion that I have of it. Because we largely know we're not a C2C platform at all. We are a B2C platform. But they are discovery shopping items. So it would be for instance, if you're working on Embarcadero road, which is here in San Francisco, and you had a nice lunch, and now you're just kind of browsing on the streets, looking at the vendors, and you see a bracelet which is made of shells, and you want to pay the pricing at $20. Sree: Maybe it's a little too expensive which you're already feeling happy, and you're ready to pay for that. Or you find something for $5. It's basically some just overall discovery and emotional connection with that item. Those kinds of products, and that kind of platform works very well with an auction format. Stephanie: Very cool. So give me a little more details on how you gamified the process. I saw it's a 92nd auction, which I had never heard of, and I thought it was very fun and definitely would convince buyers to buy quickly. But in what ways did you gamify the platform, and has it been successful with short auctions? Sree: No. I do believe so. I think even the auction, we call that as a gamification technique per se. So think about what a game does for us. It makes us competitive. We compete. So just competing on an item is gamification in itself. Because you shorten it, it's basically shorten the timeframe, the adrenal that you boost to get of competing is much more extreme. So I think the core of that platform uses that gamification technology, and then now we've added on things like badges. We've added on things like, you can collect if you shopped in certain categories, you collect a badge. You could collect it and then cash it in as chips to get some credits. So there's a bunch of other techniques we've added on, and we're continuing to do that, right? I think that's what makes our platform unique and different. We're literally trying to take an offline shopping, browsing, hunting experience and putting it online and having fun in it. So whether you call it games or just an absolute fun experience, that's what we do. Stephanie: Yeah. I could definitely see that being a big team because there are many 90-second auctions. That sounds fun. I'm going to have to try that out. Is there certain incentives that you've seen be more successful, whether, like you said, it's badges or certain things showing up on the user's profiles? What things have you seen work well, and which ones were kind of duds? Sree: No. This is the badges have been really useful for us last year that we launched it. We also launched a few other things. We tried to kind of add a community angle to it. But those experiments didn't do very well. You could poke, or you could give some... Even the gamification element, having a name there, that was very helpful to us. So I think what has been working well is having pictures. At one point, we even had pictures of individuals that they will upload, adding profiles of themselves. These are all things that were very successful, apart from the badges that I said. We continue to iterate. We experiment a bunch every quarter, every month, every week, and we try to see what works. Sree: But the big wins for us last year was badges, the names, and the profiles per se. We didn't think that people would want to add profiles and talk about themselves, but you'd be surprised they do. This is where I think the convergence of a little bit of the community and gamification and shopping is all occurring, and everyone's discovering their own comfort level in terms of that convergence. Stephanie: Yeah. Very cool. Is there any metrics that you look at when it comes to adding these different features, or you said you're running tons of experiments all the time. What are your go-to metrics to be able to tell you if something is successful or not? Sree: That's right. So if we look at the typical funnel metrics, we try to look at the engagement metrics, which are, are people bidding. More bids that we have, then obviously, it means that people are engaged, and it also drives up the ASP of the item, which is very helpful from the sell site. So that's definitely what we look at and eventually conversion. So if you're bidding, that is conversion. Stephanie: So I could also see it being interesting with... You're essentially getting, like you said, multiple conversions just by someone bidding on it to where I'm guessing you could retarget those people, and you have consumers earlier than a lot of other brands might experience. Is that what you've seen, and how do you go about reengaging those people? Sree: It's a great question. So I mean, what you're seeing is basically, even people are engaging on an item. Only one person is winning it. Let's say there were 10 bidders. There's nine of them who were interested in that item. Maybe they were not interested in that item beyond a certain price point, but they were. So what we do is if you bid on an item, we do consider that as a saved or aligned item. So we save it as an aligned item in the backend. Sree: So we use various notification methodologies for when that item comes back. So let's say I bid on the... I'm looking at the platform right now, on a CBD cream, pain relief item. Stephanie: Very popular these days. Sree: Very popular. No. I didn't mean it because it's gone up, like somebody is out to get me, and I don't want to pay $15 for this. So I kind of stop at 14. So now, the system will automatically capture that. If you look at the platform, there's a little heart-shaped on lot, which basically is our version of we like it. So the next time the CBD cream is coming up for auction, I will receive a notification that says it's coming up for auction. Come back to the platform. So we drive up a bunch of engagement with those kind of notifications. Stephanie: Yeah. That's very cool. What kind of investments have you done into personalization? Sree: Right. That's a very interesting question, actually. Stephanie, for us, the traditional definition of personalization is to be able to give you that item at the price that you want. That doesn't really work well in our auction platform. So for us, there's a broader meaning of personalization. For us, it's about personalizing to a group of people with similar tastes and similar needs and shopping behaviors versus tailoring it to an individual. So I would suggest that we use terms like targeting. So there are males if there are electronic items, shaving items. We know they generally appeal to men. So our feed optimizes knowing that this is a male. Their feed will optimize depending on the fact that are they male or female. Stephanie: Very cool. So the other thing that I was thinking about is it seems like it could be a little bit difficult to bring a seller to a platform and say, "Hey, you have there's 90 seconds for your product to get sold. I was curious how you convince sellers to come to the platform. One interesting thing I saw was your guys' blog, which seems to focus a lot on education that isn't really about Tophatter per se, but it's things like how to optimize your e-commerce warehouse strategy or how to sell more products. It seems like it's just an educational tool that could be possibly convert sellers to come on the platform. What does that process look like to get them to list their first product? Sree: That's great. You have multiple questions, and they're all very interesting. So [crosstalk 00:15:02]- Stephanie: I seem to be that. Sree: They are interesting. Your brain works very fast. I can tell. So I think the first question is, how can they? What happens in 90 seconds? I think you're trying to say, can they realize the price in 90 seconds? Well, that is the interesting part is you would find that there are certain items on our platform that can go up $100 in 19 seconds or a little bit more than 90 seconds. I'll talk about that in a little bit. But some popular items, we keep them on block longer because we know that there's a lot of excitement. So if I'm listing, for example, an iPhone, which is a refurb iPhone, but still not very old, you will see that will generate a ton of interest. Sree: What does that mean? So what does that show to the seller is that if you have an item that a lot of people will like and converge, you will be able to realize the price and probably more than what you wanted in a short period of time. So to sellers who understand the audience and understand what would appeal to the audience do really well on the platform. So that's the number one question on price realization. The second point I think you're making about educating and teaching them a lot on what can sell and how to optimize the platform, what your warehousing strategy should be. Well, because we are a discovery based platform, it's like people get bored quickly, right? Because suddenly, everybody likes this CBD cream. We've got a ton of inventory there on. We've got a ton of buyers. Sree: But after that point, it's like that song that has been at the top of your charts, and you've heard it so much. You're bored of it now. So then that very quickly goes out of fashion, and that makes it harder for a traditional seller to do warehousing strategies and what have you. Then they're like, "I had a great product, was selling really well. I was making a lot of money, and now I'm not. Now, what do we do?" So sellers have to be really smart about how they test. So they kind of have a marquee product that they know that they make most money in velocity. It keeps selling that, knowing that this is going to not be the case in a few weeks or a few months, but then continue to test on the others in parallel in anticipation of creating leads and nurturing more products that can fill in the gap when this one runs its time. Stephanie: Got it. Yeah. That seems like it's a lot of moving pieces to make sure that you're putting the right product out with their right amount of inventory level. Are these sellers also selling on their own websites traditionally? Or are they pretty focused on you guys and maybe Amazon? Sree: Yeah. So are we the primary platform, or do they sell on other platforms and their own- Stephanie: Yeah, or their own. Yeah. Sree: Or their own. Yeah. So some of them, we do find a mix of all of that. So if you think about the pyramid structure almost as the very top of the big players who sell on every platform, did themselves have their own big e-commerce companies, sorry, websites, and they're selling on those platforms themselves. They don't do a lot of GTV. Those are the ones that have found a marquee product and probably have a ton of inventory on the platform, and they kind of probably also want to do testing and channel optimization in their own companies. So we probably are one of them. So they don't do a lot of GTV. But they are good players. They provide great experience, and they're also happy to use our platform also probably because it gives them a ton of velocity as compared to the other platforms. So those are the very top. Sree: Then you have the ones in the center who are actually small, medium businesses. They are mostly for whom Tophatter is the primary channel. So what they do is they will do a ton of testing on the platform, figure out what's working, like I said, find successes. They'll build their entire business around it. Then if it doesn't sell after a point in time and they're stuck with inventory, then they liquidate it on other platforms. So the other way around. So different use case in this case. Sree: Then the bottom of the ones are just people who come in and go. It could be even a buyer like you and me who think, "Oh yeah, I have a purse in my closet. Let me try and sell it." So you'll have a bunch of people who come in and go. Stephanie: Gotcha. So as a COO, you probably have a very good bird's eye view, like you said, into the entire company. What advice would you give to someone if they were talking about starting a marketplace, which is probably one of the hardest, I would think, e-commerce businesses to start. What kind of things would you advise them to do or not do? Sree: Oh, that's a great, great question. So hard, so hard. You're exactly right. It's very hard. I think the first thing is you have to kind of figure out is your customer acquisition and your unit economics. You have to get a sense of, am I able to bring in the customer with the certain level of advertising costs? Again, do I have a platform that they are engaged enough that the unit economics will work out. I think that's the primary question. Sometimes the indications are that they will, and over time, they don't. Right? And that's where it all changes. Sree: So after having built the initial base for that, then the idea is to be able to understand the startup or whoever's starting the company has to constantly look at, how do I drive that engagement? How do I drive with LTV? What are the changes they could make? And really experiment a lot. Experiment a lot. Be open to walking away from... Be open to learning from the results of those experiments and being brave enough to not feeling so personal about those experiments and the business model that you have to hold onto it. Right? So you should know when a particular thing is not going to work or has hit a ceiling, and then you continue to innovate and continue to iterate and experiment. Stephanie: Yep. That makes sense. Are there any metrics, maybe financial ones or not financial that you look at to understand if you guys are growing the way that you want? How do you think about success when it comes to the growth of the business and the platform? Sree: Oh, absolutely. So those are the three big metrics for any company, no matter what, is always the three, right? The big ones. GTV in our case, right? Are you growing your top line. Then you want to look at, what's your margin or revenue in other cases? What's your margin? Is it healthy enough? How much liquidity do you have? Basically, that's the healthy part. How much of operating income do you have? You may have negative operating income because you're a startup. But the idea is you want to know whether your unit economics are going to be scalable. Sree: There has to be a story. So let's say your unit economics are not working on right now. That is because of X, Y, Z reasons. You are investing in logistics or investing in international growth. You're investing in something. But there has to be an IP that you'll build up that will allow you to be able to monetize this in the long term where unit economics will work out. There has to be that formula, and there has to be that clarity. There has to be proof points when you're building the business that that story or that narrative that you build is going to come true. Stephanie: Yup. Is that something that you all have been able to keep track of from the start? Because I could see a lot of startups maybe getting pretty far in and being like, "Oh, oh, I probably should've started measuring this." But you don't really think about that when you're starting a company. You're just trying to be scrappy and get it out. Is that something that you've paid attention to since the beginning or at least since you've been at the company? Sree: Well, actually, a lot of it right from the beginning. So even I've been here only for three years, but the founding team, they were very, very diligent about unit economics. So I think the fact that we have been staying standing for eight years now and as big as we are is a Testament to the fact that the founding team was so focused on unit economics. So we know our formula. We know really well what for our formula, how sensitive that is, and what are the factors that causes it to be sensitive. So we've got guard rails around that. We might make investments in my opinion, bold moves. But we also know based on the guard rail that we have established is when that is shaky and when we need to pull back. Stephanie: Are you A/B testing or running multiple tests on kind of what user interface works best or what users enjoy the most? I'm guessing you could have a bunch of different interfaces and see how they more eagerly interact with the platform. Sree: Well, totally. So A/B testing is just what we do, right? That's all we do. Even in operations, we kind of try to do A/B testing. But even retail sellers, why do you do A/B testing? Have a listing with these words? Have a picture with these words? Stephanie: Oh, that's great. Sree: Right? So that is such a core part of our DNA is A/B testing, being able to have population groups, hold out groups. Actually, that is so much in our DNA that even in terms of our OKRs, we actually call it games. Our OKRs are called games now. We want to know whether what we're doing even in an operational sense makes a difference to the company. So we have a holdout group that does not receive any of the things that the operational team is doing, and then we try to compare the effectiveness of the population, the holdout. So we've really taken this whole A/B testing to a whole new level. Stephanie: How do you get your employees to engage in that way and thinking that way of like, everything's going to be tested and measured? How did you get them to put that hat on? Sree: No, it's very interesting. It is a little bit of a struggle initially for us because in a marketplace environment, it's like an economy, right? There's so many things that are happening is really hard to measure the impact of one activity. So you bring in a big seller and you say, "Wow, this seller's GTV has grown by X%." Well, that's probably because he has replaced the GTV off another person. Right? So how do we know that this is incremental to the platform? Sree: Right. It's a very hard question to ask, and even at eBay, we used to struggle with it. But of course, eBay was at scale. So there are established ways of measuring things. So in our context, to answer your question more specifically in terms of employee engagement, what we showed was we actually did want to experiment with the marketing team, where it was about giving credits to our buyers and seeing how they engage, so lifecycle marketing activity. That was very easy to do. You just have a group that you don't send credits and see how they perform and give another group credits. It was very clear the impact of the team and how they were managing the spends in driving engagement very clear. Sree: So we use that as an example of how we could leverage that. But the key is how you set up the measurements, what kind of tactics you're measuring. You can't measure every single thing. You also want to measure things that are important. Also, you want to make sure that you have a business strategy and the measurement follows that versus the other way around that you define a measurement system and then say, "Okay. Now, let's only do things that we can measure." Sree: So there is a fine balance there. So just to kind of summarize then how we did this was we said, "Okay, what's the business strategy? What are the things we should do? Now, having said that, which activities are most amenable to A/B testing into measurements? Let's go ahead and play games around that." So on a daily basis, you will have SQL reports that are set up that speaks out based on those games how you've done. That actually really helped the teams understand and refine the tactics and levers. Once you found a tactic that worked or a lever that worked, then the teams could go and scale it into a big process, which is the dashboard and what have you. But if you didn't know what those tactics say, you're not sure, and you want to test it, this was a very good way for even the teams to understand and measure and refine. Stephanie: Yeah. That seems like a really fun way to engage employees and get them excited about data. Because I could see a lot of people being like, "Ah, I don't feel like looking at these metrics. I don't really know what they mean, and I don't know how to take an action from it." But putting it into a game format just your platform seems like the perfect culture fit as well. Sree: That's right. That's right. You have to understand also that as an organization, who's comfortable with data, and who's not, and find ways to support it. So all of these games are set up by our team in growth, the analytics team who basically worked very closely with all of the other teams, whether they are product and engineers or operations. They understand what the teams are trying to do, and then they suggest the measurement system. So it's a collaborative effort. So that gives the people who are not very comfortable with data to know that they are supported, and it's simple interpretation of the data. They don't have to define a whole lot of other things which could be perceived as pressure driving. Stephanie: Yeah. That's so important, having that team mentality, because I think in the past, engineers were kind of left out of coming up with the metrics or KPIs or helping influence product decisions, and I'm seeing this movement now where everyone's starting to work together and develop those KPIs and metrics to think about, and they're not kind of leaving the engineers out and just saying, "Hey, we'll come up with everything, and we'll let you know how to make it for us, or we'll give you all the specs." It seems like there's a unifying process happening right now when it comes to the different teams. Sree: Absolutely. I'm a big believer that we should have the collective intelligence of everybody. Just because you're writing code or you're making a sales call doesn't mean that you may not be able to contribute to the bigger picture. In fact, because you're in the trenches, you probably have a different perspective on that problem, and it's important to be able to harness all of that energy and all of that input to then step back and see what it's offering us. Stephanie: Yeah. Completely agree. Are there any marketing channels that you all are experimenting with? Because the world's moving so quick, and there's all these new platforms popping up. Is there anything that you're trying out right now or somewhere that you're finding success that maybe others aren't looking? Sree: I think it's just the usual TikTok and Instagram and Snapchat, what do you call, other channels besides the big two Facebook and Google. What has been interesting for us, we are largely a site for older people and women, majority. But TikTok is for young people. They're literally Gen Z or so. We're seeing some success there. I don't know how much that can scale to see it. But that's why it's so important to continue to experiment. You'd have some surprises. So TikTok is definitely a surprise for us. Stephanie: Yeah. We've actually had quite a few guests on the show mention TikTok. So what kind of ads are you putting on there? If a brand right now is thinking about utilizing TikTok, what are some ways that you're utilizing that platform right now? How are you engaging the younger generation on there, which I heard is actually aging a bit. So how are you using it? Sree: It's a short video format with the product and just making... I think we all know that video is very engaging and lot more content on video. It's just our ability to scale, I think, is the key here. We have so many products. We have so many items to be able to continuously find the right level of engagement in terms of... If it's a video, it has to have a product. It has to be able to do all of that messaging because we are not leaving it to the consumer to be able to browse and find that information on their own. So that's the only challenge in terms of the scaling, but yeah, generally, it's just very short. We work with partners who create all those creators for us. Stephanie: Got it. I'm wondering if you have to definitely probably have different messaging on that platform, where I wonder if it can't be... You can't have the brand up in front maybe. It has to be more like, "Here's the fun behind it and go find out what's behind this," I'm thinking, to market to that. There's different users maybe on an Instagram or Facebook where it can be more obvious. Is that how you guys have kind of approached that? Sree: That's right. That's right. Also, what is it that people are engaging with? So for example, on Facebook, it's value. Those are the things we use a lot because we feel like those are the campaigns that do well for us, right? Where we see deals and fun and value. Whereas I think more from a TikTok kind of a customer, it's more the experience, the gamification element and probably a lot more products that are skewing different to that audience. So that's the kind of experimentation we can doing and testing and coming up with the best optimization for that channel. Stephanie: Yeah. That's very cool. We'll definitely have to check that out. I was reading a very pretty funny article about how some of the younger generation is using TikTok, and they're... I don't know if you've heard about this. They're putting faces on different storefronts. So whether it's Nordstrom or Target, they're putting eyeballs and a mouth on it, and then they're creating personas for these brands. So then you're dating each other and having drama. They're like, Target and Home Depot are having a tiff today or whatever. They're breaking up. I was reading this whole article about how TikTok is being used for that, and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, is this really a platform?" Everyone on the show keeps talking about like, "TikTok's the way to go." And I read this silly article about the drama between brands that these kids are making up. I mean, it was pretty funny. I wanted to go check it out, but it made me question it a little bit. Sree: It is definitely engaging. Oh my, I have a 12, 13-year-old son. That's all he does all day long. It's so hard. We have to literally snatch his phone and hide it. TikTok is very addictive. Stephanie: Oh, man. Yeah, I believe it. But I'm sure there's a lot you could learn from him too of, "Hey, what do you think would be a fun ad? What would you like to see on here?" Sree: You're right. I do film them sometimes when he and his friends are bidding on Tophatter. It's interesting to see how they engage, what they do. It's fascinating, kids these days. Stephanie: Yeah. Hey, that seems like a good way to kind of learn and test product and test marketing if you have a 12-year-old. Now you know, everyone. That's what you can use for your product testing. So you've been in the e-commerce industry for a while. What's one thing that you wish online sellers would start or stop doing? Sree: Would start or stop doing. It's fairly mature now. So let me think about that. Stephanie: It could be D2C sellers, who they're all starting up on their own, where you're like, "You probably should do this, or shouldn't do that. Or I've seen success around this, or this is really annoying when people do this." Sree: No. I mean, as a consumer, I think the more connection that I have to the seller and being able to... So I'll give you my first experience to explain. When I was a consumer at eBay long before I joined eBay, I had a situation where I hadn't got the item that I wanted. So the seller simply just shipped me another item as a replacement, asked me to refund, send everything back and just kind of begged that I don't give him a bad review. So I mean, keeping that aside, but the whole idea of the way that seller actually engaged with me and took care of me made me feel very trusted as a consumer. So I think that is the big challenge for e-commerce, as all players, whether they are a retailer e-commerce arm of a retailer or you are a pure marketplace like us. Sree: I think the challenge is the element of trust. Because the end of it, I can't touch the item. I don't know who you are. I haven't seen you. I haven't gone in your store. That's I think the critical aspect. I don't know, Stephanie, if you realize this, that even though we think e-commerce is a very mature market from an online perspective, the penetration rate for certain categories is still fairly small. Books and CDs are probably 55% of online sales, penetration. But apparel and beauty, for instance, apparel is less than 30%. I don't know what happens after COVID-19. So I don't know the numbers, but the expectation for 2020 or apparel was 29% and beauty 11. Sree: So I mean, this is another angle to what I said. But it's also the emotional element of when I'm wearing this outfit, how do I look? Does it fit me? Am I getting the community feedback off? Yeah. It's great if I go shopping with my friends. They'll be, "Yeah. That looks very cute." How do they replicate that part? Or if it's beauty, how does it look it with my skin color. Those are some challenges that I think we still need to address. Stephanie: Yeah. I completely agree, especially the trust piece. I mean, on Instagram, every single day, there's probably five new apparel companies advertising to me. You go to their website, and you're like, "Did you just start yesterday?" It seems like there needs to be some kind of mechanism to show. Sree: That's right. Stephanie: I know there are people that are trying to show this is a trustworthy website, and they've been around for five years. But it definitely seems hard from a consumer perspective if things are moving more online and people do start getting more comfortable shopping online, if you get burned once, it's going to be pretty hard to want to try out a new company. I think that'd be something that'd be difficult but necessary to figure out. Sree: Yeah. To add to that, Stephanie, is also like... I don't know. What is the agency? If you're buying something, like you said, I click a lot of the ads on Facebook, and I have a similar reaction, and being also on the other side of a partner of Facebook, it's very interesting to me to see both sides of the aisle is, how does Facebook become an arbitrator here, right? How do they make sure that the buyer is taken care of and folks like us, Tophatter as a company who are sellers or advertising in the platform how to hold us accountable and managing our internal metrics of how we considered customer satisfaction and marrying that with Facebook's definition? Sree: So it's a very interesting challenge because you're talking about distribution across so many... There was a time when you knew eBay, right? It's organic search. So you didn't have to go through an intermediary like Facebook. Now we've added that on. Facebook has become one of the biggest ad pair. So when you add that on, what is their responsibility in all of this? Stephanie: Have you seen these platforms- Sree: I don't have the answers. Stephanie: ... shifting? Have you see these platforms since you've been on them kind of shifting their viewpoint on responsibility and of upping their standards when it comes to new brands joining? It seems like it's starting to get better when it comes to that. Sree: No. It's a very good question. Actually, they have. But I don't think that they are very mature in terms of how to think about it. So let me explain this a little bit. So let me use eBay as examples. So when eBay went through that question of how responsible are we, how can we make sure that the seller's performance matched that customer's expectation? I think if you had like 25 years of experience building that out, seller performance management system. Facebook is fairly immature there, right? I think they're still very early in the process. They've just figured that out. People are asking them questions, not only on the news content. They're being held accountable, but they're also being held accountable for the advertisers on the platform from a commerce perspective. Sree: So they're not mature. They're figuring it out. They have some rudimentary measures. But I think the gap for me as a consumer of Facebook's advertising... not consumer, sorry, as somebody who advertises on Facebook, for me, the biggest challenge is that I cannot connect the dots as to what I think my customers need and how Facebook thinks my customers need. I may have great customer satisfaction on my platform, but Facebook may not think that I do and vice versa. So I think they have some maturity maturing to do. Stephanie: Yeah. It definitely seems like it's a tough pole between these platforms. Do you want more revenue, or do you want to cut down on your revenue to also have better brands come on and not let just anyone come on the platform and potentially hurt the end user? Sree: Exactly. That's the kind of challenge we have at eBay too, right, and we have [inaudible] right? All marketplaces have the exact same thing. Because anybody who has, generally speaking, sensationalism, whether it is news content or products, also, the bad sellers do things in such a way that they might get more volume, and they may be even willing to pay for it because they don't have the overhead costs. So that is the same challenge that we have as marketplaces. But then what you do is you create a performance management system where you reward good behaviors, and you improve the baseline for the entire platform. You move the goalpost for the entire platform consistently, continuously. That of course took 25 years for eBay to get there, and still, I think you need to continue to refine it. So I think it's a question of time before Facebook figures it out. Stephanie: Yeah. Well, hopefully, with everything going on with COVID, it's been speeding everything else up. So hopefully it'll kind encourage speed around that area and it doesn't take 25 years to develop, hopefully. Sree: I agree. Stephanie: So we mentioned COVID. That brings me to the question of, what do you think the future of online commerce looks like, especially after the pandemic's over? Sree: Great, great question. I think that the last I saw, there was like 120% increase in online shopping in Q1, I think. You're in the US, something crazy like that. That of course won't be as crazy. The growth rate will probably come down. But then some of the shift is significant, and they'll stay there. So we all know that grocery shopping penetration went up. It's probably going to not be as high. But people who have never done grocery shopping online will be like, "This is kind of cool. I need to stick with it." So there will be some shift that stays permanent. Sree: I think the more interesting thing for me is what I'm seeing with retailers. The retailers who do not have an online presence at all are kind of coming to terms with the fact that they can't ignore it. All of the industry is designed around physical location. The processes are designed around physical location. Their marketing is designed around that. Pricing strategy, procurement strategy, returns, everything. So that's why they have been very resistant in terms of... Generally speaking, there are some who do better than the others. Generally speaking, they're a little more old school when it comes to e-commerce. Can you believe that Ross does not have an online- Stephanie: Oh, yeah. I know. [crosstalk 00:45:37]- Sree: Or Marshalls. I love Marshalls. I'm like, it's too hard. I want to shop, and I can't shop because they don't have a website. Stephanie: I actually just brought this up in another interview about TJ Maxx. There was a whole article that they will not be going online. I mean, they have a very minimal e-commerce experience right now. But I think they put their foot in the sand, and they were like, "No. We're not doing it." Right. Sree: We won't do. That's fascinating. That's fascinating. So maybe they can get away with it because they are only a discount retailer, right? They have major investments, and maybe they've realized that this is the niche, and they don't want to divert the resources somewhere else. That's okay. But now, the other retailers that were on the brink of bankruptcy have been kind of pushed to facing it at the moment. I think, what, 25 retailers probably have already filed for bankruptcy thus far. I hear that in the next five years, there'd be a hundred thousand stores that may be closing now. Well, what that means is there will be a tremendous amount of retail consolidation, and we'll have to take it seriously. People will have to redo the processes. Sree: Some good example I think I've heard is Zara. Zara is very serious about this, and they're like, "We will close art stores, and we will have a few channel strategy. We are going to use COVID-19 as a way to accelerate that, that we were going there anyway. Let's do that." I think that's the right way to go. Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. I wonder what will happen with all the stores. It seems like there could also be an opportunity for different retail models to pop up, like pop-up stores and [crosstalk] shops. Sree: [crosstalk 00:47:13]. Sree: It seems like that- Stephanie: Absolutely. I think that stores will never go out of fashion. But how you use stores, initially it was stores as a central point of a strategy. Instead, it will be a strategic lever. I mean, there's a reason why Amazon bought Whole Foods. The fact that there are retail locations is a strategic lever for Amazon. Best Buy turned around. They used the stores as a very strategic lever, same thing with Walmart. So people will always want to socialize. People will want to hang out. So the stores could be an experience. It could be a place where you pick up things quickly. It could be a place where actually, there are things that you don't want to try on. You can't figure it out. You go there. Maybe it's a place where you drink wine and hang out and- Sree: Cool. Stephanie: ... do other things. Sree: That kind of store. Stephanie: That kind of [inaudible 00:48:11]. Stores could be an experience. It doesn't have to be a transactional place where you just buy and sell things. Sree: Yeah. I completely agree. Or even the stores are known for having the newest items, where some people who care about that, they can go into the store then- Stephanie: To the store. Sree: ... for the people like me who maybe are like, "Yeah. It's been out a few months, I don't mind. I can just shop online." So yeah. I completely agree about the experiential aspect of it. So before we move into the lightning round, is there anything around the e-commerce industry that you wanted to highlight or talk about that I just missed? Stephanie: No. I think I didn't want to talk about the retail, which we covered. So thank you for asking me that question. Sree: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was great. All right. Cool. We can move on to the lightning round, brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question tree, and in a minute or less, you can give me a wonderful answer. Are you ready? Stephanie: No pressure. No, I'm not ready. Let's go for it. Sree: No pressure. Just take a deep breath. It'll be fun. All right. So what app are you enjoying most on your phone? Stephanie: Should I admit it is TikTok. Sree: Yes, you can admit that. I actually have just started getting into TikTok. So there's no judgment coming from my end. Are you doing dancing videos or what are you doing? Stephanie: No. I don't know. I just watch. It's hilarious. Sree: You're slashing from the sidelines. Yeah, that's me too. I'm like, "I'm not creative enough to make something per se, but I'll watch everyone else." What is the newest e-commerce tool that you're trying out right now? Stephanie: Newest e-commerce tool. [inaudible 00:49:45]. Sree: So any kind of tool that you're working on for the platform right now at Tophatter? Stephanie: Yeah. So Got it. So React Native. I'll pick that. Sree: Okay. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about, and who would your first guest be? Stephanie: I think it would be about managing stress and how to live a balanced life, a happy life. I would love to get Dalai Lama. Sree: Ooh, that's a good one. We'll have to email him. I'm sure he'll say yes. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your reading list. Sree: On my reading list. I have a history book that I just ordered, and I have Ben Franklin's biography that somebody had written that is on my reading list now. I've done a lot of business readings, so I need a break now. Stephanie: Yeah. Cool. Yeah, it's always good to get a break and read something fun. All right. The last one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year? Sree: I think the retail consolidation to me is the most interesting phenomenon that I'm seeing. So that forces a lot more innovation in the industry. I really think that the omnichannel strategies are going to be the new thing, taken at a different level. It already is a thing. But then taking it to a different level, that's what I foresee, and I'm very excited to see in the next few years. Stephanie: Yeah. Completely agree. Well, Sree, it's been such a blast having you on the show. Where can people find out more about Tophatter and yourself? Sree: Well, you can find out about me going to LinkedIn. Go ahead and download Tophatter on your app. Or if you are more comfortable in desktop, go to tophatter.com. You'll find us all there. Stephanie: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on Up Next in Commerce. We'll have to have you back. This was a blast. Sree: Awesome. Thank you, Stephanie. Had a great time myself. Have a great day. Stay safe out there.  

Carolyn LoweCo-Founder of ROI Swift Show Notes: CPCSponsored ProductSponsored BrandsProduct Display AdvertisingSponsored Brand VideoMake sure you have text overRetargetingNot as effectiveGood for less than $100 AOV$400 AOVRetargeted on Amazon properties69% of Amazon Searches are non-brand70% of Amazon Users don't make it past page 1Start with auto campaignASIN Product TargetingFind all products with a higher price and lower starsUsed to have a 35k Min ad spendUse Certified Agency PartnersAgencies have access to betasSnapChat - Low CPC in 2020TicTac - Testing now Sponsors: Drip – Get a free demo of Drip using this coupon code!Spark Shipping – Dropshipping Automation Bio: Carolyn is the co-founded ROI Swift an agency that she started in 2015 which helps consumerbrands with Amazon, Paid Ads for Facebook/Instagram, andPaid Search. Links: https://roiswift.com Transcript : Charles (00:00): In this episode of the Business of eCommerce. I talk with Carolyn Lowe about selling on Amazon in 2020. This is a business we commerce episode one 34. Charles (00:18): Welcome to the Business eCommerce, the show that helps eCommerce retailers start launch and grow their eCommerce business. I'm your host, Charles pesky. Now I'm going to tell you what's Carolyn Lowe. Carolyn is a cofounder of ROI Swift and agency that she sided into 2015 to help consumer brands with Amazon paid Facebook and Instagram ads and paid search as Carolina show today to talk about as a retailer, what you should know, selling an Amazon in 2020. So Hey Carolyn, how are you doing today? Great. How are you Charles? Great to have you on the show and yeah, I'm doing well. I here in the COVID world, I saw, I normally have to watch on video. I normally shave every morning and my dollar shave club razor broken half this morning. So waiting for a new one. So if you're watching on YouTube and you wondering why I have a bed, that's why, so we'll see how fast dollar shave club ships. That's all I'm doing. So how about yourself? Carolyn (01:11): I'm doing well. It's just hot, hot and humid in Austin, Texas. It's pretty much summer here, so I'm happy to be inside. Charles (01:18): Nice. We're just talking like the razor because I can't run out and just buy a razor, this COVID world. We were talking before the show about Amazon and just some of the changes that have been affected recently. Shipping times, logistics I've have a few guests on and just going to talk about recently, it feels like 2012. Like the entire world is like shifted and the way I'm seeing it is this could be not a temporary thing. This could be the new norm. I think there's a lot of retailers now we work with have that. Let's talk with someone the other day and they're like, yeah, we're doing black Friday numbers. I'm like, Oh, that's great. They're like, yeah. Every day though, like every single day is like basically black Friday. And I think for certain folks, this is a new norm. And we've been talking about, you kinda mentioned Amazon has some big weaknesses that have been shown right in the past three, four months at this point. So could you kind of talk about those? Carolyn (02:17): Yeah, I think there's a few things. So Amazon's competitive advantage was always that they could get it there faster and cheaper than, than retail. Right? So you would get, when I had young kids, I had a subscribe and save subscription for diapers and I wouldn't have to run out to target and go get diapers every month diapers would appear and I wouldn't have to go pack up my kid and go get them. And now, as you've seen, you know, target Walmart, they have curbside, they have online shopping, they have much faster delivery and they're finally taking advantage of their competitive advantage, which is they have all that inventory within five miles of you. So Amazon is opening a lot more fulfillment centers. They've gone to one day, one day for a bunch of customers.

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Jennifer Hutton on the show to discuss Anti-Racism & Allyship. Dr. Jennifer Hutton, aka Dr. Jpop, is a pediatric physical therapist from Nashville, TN. As a Black woman, Jennifer knows what it is like to identify as different, and it has helped in her quest to be an ally for children with disabilities inside and outside of the clinic. Now she is educating others on how to be effective allies to BIPOC and furthering her desire to create a diverse and inclusive space she calls Dr. Jpop’s Neighborhood. In this episode, we discuss: -How racial trauma impacts the biopsychosocial determinants of health -The difference between an ally and a white savior -Implicit bias in healthcare -The lifelong process of Allyship -And so much more!  Resources: Jennifer Hutton Facebook Jennifer Hutton Twitter Jennifer Hutton Instagram Jennifer Hutton Website Anti-Racism & Allyship for Rehab and Movement Professionals   A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!  Learn more about Four Ways That Outpatient Therapy Providers Can Increase Patient Engagement in 2020!   For more information on Jennifer: Dr. Jennifer Hutton, aka Dr. Jpop, is a pediatric physical therapist from Nashville, TN. She became interested in PT when her youngest cousin was diagnosed with cerebral palsy. Jennifer spent time observing him in different therapies, and subsequently determined that she would work with children in a similar capacity. She graduated from Loma Linda University with her Doctorate in Physical Therapy in 2008, and moved back to her hometown.  She spent two years treating in an ortho setting before finally transitioning to her dream job with children. Jennifer enjoys treating the developmentally delayed population, as well as children with neurological and orthopedic diagnoses, both congenital and acquired. While the world reminds children with special needs of their limitations, she believes they are all capable of the impossible and helps them see that their special gifts will help them be their best selves. Jennifer loves to showcase her “pop stars” and share creative treatment ideas on Instagram. She is also an instructor for RockTape and is currently working on her own educational content for pediatric movement specialists. As a Black woman, Jennifer knows what it is like to identify as different, and it has helped in her quest to be an ally for children with disabilities inside and outside of the clinic. Now she is educating others on how to be effective allies to BIPOC and furthering her desire to create a diverse and inclusive space she calls Dr. Jpop’s Neighborhood.   Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy (00:01): Hey, Jennifer, welcome to the podcast. I am so happy to have you on. And now for those of you who are, maybe don't know you by your full first name on Instagram and social media, she is Dr. J Pop and last week you gave a wonderfully informative thought provoking webinar, and we will have the link to that in our show notes. Cause people can still watch the replay to that, correct? Yes, the replay is up and it will be for the foreseeable future. So what I'll have you do quickly because I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I would love for you just to tell the audience a little bit more about what that webinar was about and why you did it. Jennifer Hutton (00:58): Yeah, so it was anti-racism and allyship for rehab and movement professionals. And I went through from the beginning, literally started with the history of white supremacy in healthcare, through slavery. The Jim Crow era talked about racial trauma and the effects that it can have psychologically and physiologically. Then I went through the stages of allies and all of the things that you can do in each stage. And then I have portioned it out for the examination phase and for the action phase and kind of let people know in their different settings, be it education, be it healthcare or fitness, the action steps and the questions that they can ask themselves to be a better ally. I just, I wanted to do it. It's been a passion of mine for awhile talking about cultural competency and diversity, and I could tell people were awake in a way that they've never been awake before, so they were ready to receive the message. Jennifer Hutton (01:57): So when everything happened with, you know, Brianna Taylor, I'm not arbitrary and George Floyd, it was kind of like the cherry on top that everybody now is ready to listen. And so I found this was a great way to just get my thoughts across.   Karen Litzy: And obviously we're not going to have you retell that entire thing because people can go and watch the replay. Like I said, there'll be a link in the show notes but for me after watching it and I also watched the replay, so I sort of like went through it twice. Just because, you know, I want it to be really clear on what I didn't know. And good. Yeah. And so we're not going to go through all of it, but what I do want to touch upon today is, and you mentioned it in your description just now is racial trauma. And I also want to talk about allyship. So what can people specifically in healthcare do to be allies to our BIPOC community in healthcare? Jennifer Hutton (03:00): Right? So we'll get to that. But first, what I want to talk about is racial trauma. This was a very, very powerful part of the webinar for me. And it is certainly part of our social determinants of health. And as physical therapists, if we are treating under a bio-psychosocial lens, social is part of it. We need to be aware of what racial trauma is and how that may affect a person mentally, physically, and emotionally. Jennifer Hutton (03:47): Racial trauma is basically the cumulative effects of racism on an individual's mental and physical health. And I thought it was really important to highlight because we do a great job of talking about healthcare disparities. We do a great job of, you know, singling out the races and what you will see in the trends and the diseases. But we don't really look at the root cause of why this may be something that is more prevalent in different communities. So I kind of explained that racial trauma is likened unto PTSD. The only difference is we cannot separate ourselves from that toxic environment. So you start to see the manifestation of that stress. The weathering is one of the terms that you will hear when it just breaks down the body because of all of the stress that you are feeling and seeing. So you start to have increased suspicion, sensitivity to threat you know, physiological symptoms using other mechanisms like alcohol and drugs, increased aggression no thoughts of future. Jennifer Hutton (04:54): And I also have looked at research that where they look at the Holocaust survivors and how they actually saw changes in their DNA from the stress that they went through. And that's what they're starting to look at with our DNA as well, seeing that we pass these things down through generations, which is why it's called generational trauma. So to just say, Oh, well this, the African Americans are most likely to have these diseases. It's like, well, what are they dealing with outside of your clinic walls? That would cause this. And it was funny cause the students loved that part. The most, those were actually in professional school. Cause they're saying this would be extremely helpful to relate to patients when I actually go into the clinic or healthcare setting. So I focused on that and I also kind of showed way that you cope with racial trauma and all of the ways that you'll see in the communities is racial storytelling. Jennifer Hutton (05:58): So being able to tell you some of the experiences that I've had in this America validation, naming the trauma, understanding that the microaggressions that you're feeling are a part of the racial trauma that you're experiencing it. And the problem they're finding, even with some of these coping mechanisms is great for the moment. But what happens when the next event comes around, they're going right back through those stages of grief and stress. So I think it's important to see in every facet of life, there are the effects of racism, the effects of white supremacy. And so if you're hitting that on every facet of your life, you're more likely to present with physiological issues. Karen Litzy (06:44): And as a, let's say, as a clinician who might be treating someone who let's say does have high blood pressure or heart disease and is part of the African American community or BIPOC community, is it part of our job to then educate our patients on this? So cause they may say, well, you know, it runs in my family, right. I don't know why it runs in my family. So where does our job come in as the healthcare provider? What is our duty to those patients to address? Is it our duty to address that and to help with coping mechanisms? Or is it just a referral to someone else? Jennifer Hutton (07:25): Right. I think it's definitely our job to consider it when we are approaching different patients to consider that this may be something and a lot of times you'll hear it in their rhetoric. I think I had a student in the chat during the webinar say I have someone who said, he's afraid that if a cop actually comes and he can't put his hands up, that they'll feel like he's resisting. And it was because he couldn't get enough external rotation. Did you read that one? Karen Litzy (07:56): Yeah, I read that too. Yeah. Yeah. Jennifer Hutton (07:58): It was like, see that, that right there. That is something that probably wouldn't have come to your mind when you were thinking about his plan of care, but now maybe you need to change your approach because you're actually tapping into something that makes him feel outside. You feel something that just about the pain that outside and his wife. So I think we definitely have to keep it in mind and consider it. I also think we have access to and knowledge about so many different ways that we can take care of our body. So even if you were to start incorporating some of those into the treatment plan so that they can understand, these are things that you can use and you don't have to name it for them, you don't have to say this is because of racial trauma or give them all of the facts. But you, as a clinician recognize it might be something that's beneficial to them. So that's why I say to my Pilates instructors, to my yoga instructors, you know, you're a key to coping. You're a, something that could be helpful for them. And if they don't know that it, yeah, it is your job because you know about these things. So you can give them as a resource. Karen Litzy (09:02): Excellent. Thank you. And now, let's move on to the concept of being an ally. So before we start and get into how to be an ally certainly within the realm of healthcare, I would love for you to just, can you just define what an ally is? Jennifer Hutton (09:25): Yes. So an ally is a person group or nation that is associated with another group or others for a common cause or purpose. So that just means no, this is not something that affects your daily life personally, but you see that it does affect the way someone else's life is and you want to help make it better. So where you're using your privilege and your position to help further the cause. Karen Litzy (09:51): And how is that different than white savior racism? Jennifer Hutton (09:56): Yeah. So white saviors and still comes from the perspective that you are superior, that if you were not doing the work, then it would not be done and that you are absolutely needed. And I agree your voice is needed, but if you're still approaching it from a superior mindset, because you haven't done the work through those stages of allyship than it actually is a hindrance and it's not as effective. Karen Litzy (10:25): Got it. All right. Good, good change. They're good. Because I think oftentimes we maybe think we're an ally, but maybe we're not. And the concept of white saviorism, is that something that someone is consciously thinking or could that be an unconscious thing? Like you really think that you're there to help and you're trying to do your best, but you're may not be helping in the way you think you are. Jennifer Hutton (10:58): Right. And that's, to me, that's where the self-examination comes in. That's where those questions that you ask yourself about your upbringing, what you believed about black lives matter before all of this happened, what you thought about the killings that were happening in the people that were speaking out against them. How you viewed other races, the things that you said, the things that you've heard, because now you are able to see, yeah. Maybe you're not a racist, but you may have biases that are affecting your thought process, affecting your decisions. So I always say, check your intention. Like, don't just say, well, I intended to do good. Look at the impact that it had. If the impact does not measure the intention, then maybe we need to go back and do some homework on that intention. Because if you're doing something only to make yourself feel better, like, okay, I'm doing it. I'm that good person, not the best intention if you're doing it because like, Oh, they need me, like I talked about thinking that you have to give scholarships to all black people. Like they don't have the money to pay. That's why saviorism that is still coming from a bias mindset of, they are poor. They have less, they don't have the resources and I need to step in and save the day. But I don't think it's ever intentional. I still think it's just coming from your perspective and you really gotta check your perspective. Karen Litzy (12:19): Yeah. And I think we also hear the word implicit bias thrown around quite a bit. So do you want to define that and where that comes into play within this conversation? Jennifer Hutton (12:29): Yeah. So the official definition would be attitudes and stereotypes that affect your understanding, your actions and your decisions in an unconscious way. And I talked about thought viruses. And the way that I give a great example is the older person who only saw whites only signs and colored only signs everywhere that they went can, do you really think they couldn't have made some type of decision or thought about how black people are, how white people are based on what they experienced in their environment. So everything that you were taught and the things that you saw, the things that you heard, it forms your biases and that's on all sides and it mobilizes you. And it's how you act. So if you were surrounded by people who were racist, even if you think of yourself as a good person, you still may have things that were thought viruses that were planted that you have to check. Karen Litzy (13:28): Yeah. All right. Great. Okay. Now let's get into the stages of allyship. So stage one awareness. What does that mean? Does that just mean, Oh, I'm an ally. I'm aware. I'm sure it's much more complicated than that. So I'm just trying, I'm pointing out like the total ridiculous side of it, because that might be like what people think like I'm aware I watched the news. I know what's going on. I'm going to be an ally done. Yes. Jennifer Hutton (13:57): So awareness is that you see that there is a problem. You see the problem and you acknowledge the problem. You also acknowledge as an ally, your privilege in this world, the fact that you are viewed as different and sometimes better in your spaces. And then you say, I want to make this better. So the end of awareness is still an action step of committing and deciding and holding yourself accountable to learning and unlearning all of the things that have made you think this way so that you can be an effective ally. So the awareness, isn't just, yeah, I'm an ally. It's Oh, there's a problem. We got to do something about this. How do I help? Karen Litzy (14:52): Yeah. And could an action step in this awareness phase, be, you know, watching your webinar or watching 13th or reading a book or having conversations. And does that, would that fall into this category or is that sort of weave through?   Jennifer Hutton: I think awareness is probably the step that you will visit the most. That would, that's the thing because you, the more that you educate yourself, so webinars, podcasts, Ted talks, documentaries, those are part of your education. Just like any, I think I said, create your own curriculum. Just like you would learn anything. You have to go through all of the information, but as you learn, you'll start to see these things in other spaces and that seeing those things is still your awareness. So I always say, don't think that you're going to escape the phase I'd be done and not come back to it. You're going to start to see these things in all the facets of your life on it. So not just awareness on, like I took a week off and now I'm more aware it's being aware on a daily basis of what you're seeing in your community, within your family, your friends, your peers, your colleagues, and then just do so are you aware of it? And you just make a little mental note, or it's more of a high and it sticks because if you're educating yourself, then what you see will help you process. If that makes sense. The scenario that you are placed in the things that you watch, you'll be able to refer back to. Oh, I remember when I watched, Oh, I remember when I read, when I heard this person say, now you're connecting that after you've educated educator in the process of educating yourself. Karen Litzy (16:02): Yeah. Yeah. And then we sort of jumped the gun. So you've got awareness and education. Is that kind of second stage or do those just sort of inter sort of weave together? They can't have it. Can't have one without the other, right? Yeah. You cannot. Okay. And then next, so kind of moving through these stages here, here comes this, this is a tough one. Karen Litzy (17:00): Here comes the sticky one self interrogation. So can you explain that and also explain why it's sticky it can be difficult.   Jennifer Hutton: Yes, the reason self interrogation, this is when you really start to ask yourself a question, cause you're now trying to strip yourself or unlearn the things that have caused you to think the way that you have. So you really have to put your ego aside. And I always say, tell yourself, you're not a bad person. You just have thought viruses that you're trying to change. So you're asking yourself those questions. What were you taught about black people and people of color? Were there any times that you were in, you know, scenarios where there was racism and you didn't speak up or you feel like it was important to speak up? Have you allowed your privilege to mobilize you, but maybe not help someone else? Jennifer Hutton (17:56): Do you have friends of color? My favorite is, well, what were your thoughts about black lives matter 10 years ago in 2012, maybe when Trayvon Martin happened, what were you thinking about these same protests and these same people speaking out? Because if you can truly answer those questions, then you'll see that's where my bias is. That's where that was my blind spot. That is something that I didn't realize it was coming in, but it has affected me. So those were the personal questions and those are hard because it is really, you have to strip yourself of what you consider a part of you. A part of who you are a part of your upbringing. And if you're having those conversations with family members, I mean, I've heard people say, I didn't expect my parents to say the things that they said. Jennifer Hutton (18:47): I didn't expect my best friend to feel the way that she did about me posting my black square. And the conversation that we had was extremely uncomfortable for me and hurtful because I thought we were on the same page. So that's where the discomfort lies. And then it's in deciding, is this that important for me to continue? Even if other people don't continue with me asking yourself, that question is hard. Because you can't, you can't let go of family. That's not how it really works. I mean, of course, if it's toxic, I understand, but you really have to say, I might be doing this by myself and it is a tall task, so are you really ready for it? So that was the personal self interrogation. Karen Litzy (19:34): Yeah. It's sort of this cleaning out your cupboard, if you will, you know, and trying to see if you are ready to change your thoughts and your beliefs and what if you go through these questions and you're not ready. Okay. Jennifer Hutton (19:59): It's always comes back to the question. Once you get to that point of discomfort, you have to ask yourself why you're uncomfortable. You can't just escape the situation because you're going to end up coming back to it. If it was a part of your awakening, once you're awake, it's hard to not see things. It is really hard. So I always say, it's fine if you're not ready, but maybe the reason you're not ready is because you had an upbringing that taught you something that you can't shake. Maybe you need a therapist. Maybe you need to talk through some of those other things to actually help you get past this stage. Karen Litzy (20:34): And was there a point for you growing up where you had your first encounter with racism? Jennifer Hutton (20:50): My very first that I can recall it was mother's day out where you went like three days a week and I wanted to play with like, it's a daycare. It's kinda like daycare, but you don't go every day and you still learn things. So it's like a preschool thing pre K through year four or whatever you call it. But I wanted to play with the kids and I think there were two black kids and the entire mother's day out or my class. And I was told, no, we don't play with Brown kids Jennifer Hutton (21:29): I had another four year old. And so apparently went home. I remembered the act. I remember the kid. I could actually see his face even now, 30 something years later. But apparently I didn't want to tell one parent because I thought that parent would get upset and do something at the house. So I told my, I think I told my mom and that was when they first had to have that conversation of people are not going to like you because of your color and explain it. You imagine having to explain it to a four year old, like they're still processing how to count, pass a hundred, like, and you're telling them it's going to be a problem. Something that they identify with, that they see in the mirror everyday, they cannot shake is going to be a problem for people. So I think that was definitely the first time that I remember. Jennifer Hutton (22:24): And then I also remember the first time I said, Oh, this is unacceptable. And at that point I was like 14. And I had had an incident with a cop where I was profiled. And it was evident because I had white friends around me that were not treated the same for the same regulations I was given. And it was at that point that I said that I'm a fighter, it's time to go. I'm not going to accept this. And I'm not going to not be in these spaces because you don't like it either. I'm going to show up and you're going to see me and I'm going to speak and be loud about how I feel. Because I think my voice is extremely important. Karen Litzy (23:05): Yeah. Wow. I mean, I grew up in the most non diverse town in Pennsylvania and I went to a very non diverse school for college. It's much more diverse now. And when I moved to New York, so I'm in my twenties and it's the first time that I had a friend that I worked with. And he's awesome. But that's beside the point. And we were at work and he had said something about like he had to drive. He hated driving back out of the city at night. Sometimes I said, well, why I was like, is it, I was like, see, it wasn't a drinker or anything like that. It's like, he's drinking and driving. And I couldn't understand. And I was like, well, why wouldn't you, like, why would you worry about driving out of the city at night? Karen Litzy (24:05): And, and he was like, well, I wouldn't want to get pulled over. I'm like, why would you get pulled over? This is how like, night and I was not doing it. Like I was seriously wondering, why would you get pulled? Like, do you have a broken tail light? Did you do speed? And he was just looking at me and he was like, no, I'm like, well, why would they, why would the police pull you over then if you're doing everything right. And he was like, well, you know, when I was like, I don't, I don't know, like tell me why. And he was like, well, you know, because I'm black. And I was like, what? Yeah. And that was the first I was in my twenties. And that was the first time. And I was like, it's funny. I had a talking about, so that was the first time I ever had a conversation about that type of, about racism and how it affects someone who I only knew as like these. Awesome. I love him. He's my great, he's a great friend. He, to this day is still a great friend. And I just was like, I don't, Karen Litzy (25:08): I don't get it. I don't get it. Yeah, yeah, Jennifer Hutton (25:10): No, I didn't get in there. And I think part, my brother said it perfectly sometimes when you're in the same spaces with people, you think your experience is similar. So even if you had a black friend that was with you through all of those, you know, non diverse schoolings and situations, scenarios, and things that you were part of, you would still think our perspective has to be the same. Cause we're getting to do the same thing. So it kind of makes it harder for you to look outside of your experience. Karen Litzy (25:43): What a world. So that's a little bit on the self interrogation and what those questions when I asked myself those questions, I remember that incident. So clearly now and looking back on it, I was like, Oh boy. Yeah. I was just didn't know, I didn't know what I didn't know. And now I do. And now I do. Yeah. Period. Now let's go on. So we talked about self interrogation serve as a person, but let's talk about it now under the lens of being a healthcare provider. So how does that work?   Jennifer Hutton: So the self interrogation as a healthcare provider, to me, just like I said, we're educated on health disparities, but not with them. What was your professional opinion? How did you form your professional opinion based on the things that you were taught? Jennifer Hutton (26:44): And this can even a great example is when you hear the word Medicare, what do you do mentally physiologically? Do you grown? Because it's like another Medicare patient. If you're a clinic owner, or even if you are a clinician Medicare, Medicaid, workman's comp, like, what are your thoughts when you see that come through the door, chronic. So that kind of pain. What do you think about chronic pain? People like that? These are you've formed a bias. And how does that bias actually shape how you treat shape the way that you develop plans of care? Are you able to actually change things based on what you see? Just like that student said, well, how do I work on external rotation? There's a million ways that you could actually work on it without it triggering them. So those are the things that you really have to ask yourself and then privilege in outside of just the clinic. Jennifer Hutton (27:34): What is your governing organization look like when you are a part of these masterminds and part of these panels and these groups and discussions, do you see other voices? Do you see other people that don't look like you in the room? Are there ways that you could leverage your privilege to actually open the door so that there are more voices in the room? And then how do you view the table? Like there was one person I was talking to last week and she said, you know, even the thought of saying, let's give them a seat at the table said that you own the table and you don't, none of us do. So you want to create a diverse perspective or diverse group of people in all of your spaces. And so you really want to ask yourself, how can I do that? And then patients like nonverbal communication, when you are working with them, when they are hearing conversations that might be triggering or how do you respond? Do you want to just go in a corner and not say anything? Do you want to just ignore it and shift it to the side? How does discomfort in your coworkers look when you are talking about certain things. So that's some of the self interrogation you can do as a clinician. Karen Litzy (28:43): And, you know, you sort of mentioned, well, if you're having conversation with patients, what happens when let's say a patient in a clinic, whether you're one-on-one or you're in a gym with a lot of people, if they say something that's just not right. Right. And if they sit there talking racist talk, or even saying things that maybe aren't blatantly racist, but still you're like, yeah, no, that's not right. What do you, what do you say? No, we spoke about this a little bit before we went on the air. And we said, it's a little different because we can, we were talking about coronavirus before we got on the air and how, you know, cases are going up in some parts of the country. And it's not just because of more testing it's because more people are sick and you can point those facts and figures. So someone says to you cases, aren't going up, it's the testing you can say, no, no, no. Here are the facts and figures here it is. This is the truth with this. It's a little more abstract, right? So how do we handle those situations as healthcare providers? Jennifer Hutton (29:53): I think just like you handle your patients, it's going to be a case by case situation. I can't give you a cookie cutter copy and paste way because everybody, even if they present with an implicit bias, it's still going to be different from the next person. So depending on your position, if you are a clinic owner, then if this is something that is explicitly, someone's explicitly racist, then you have to make it clear what your business stands for. That is extremely important first. I think it's important to have procedures and policies in place. And maybe even we tolerate everybody like this. Isn't an open space. This is, we accept everyone as they are. And that's something you can give to them. The first time they walk in the door. Cause that lets them know, I don't know who's coming in here is clearly a diverse population and they are tolerable of everybody. Jennifer Hutton (30:48): So it sets the standard sets that precedence before you even get started. And then it's those simple conversations. No, you can't spend your whole session educating them on, you know, the history of healthcare. But you can say, you know, there are some resources that I've read that have helped change my perspective. And if they are open, then give them to them. If they are not, then you need to have something in place that says, Hey, I understand that everybody has different perspectives, but here we respect everyone. And we don't want to trigger anyone in how in our speech. So we would really appreciate it if you would respect that. And honestly, they're gonna be some people who don't like it. And that is this journey. This is literally the journey of being a black person and being an ally. There are not going there going to be people that don't agree with you. And you just have to decide what your stance is and continue to go inside for that every time you face these situations. Karen Litzy (31:48): And I love, and I want to point out that the responses you just gave did not, they weren't accusatory, they weren't aggressive. It was more, Hey, I found this for myself or this is what we, as a clinic, believe it wasn't you. Or how could you say that? Don't say, I mean, that is just the wrong way to go about it. Jennifer Hutton (32:12): Especially the clinician is not professional. Got to that point. You do, you might have to say, you know what, we might have to end our relationship and maybe able to give you some clinics that would be more suited for you. But this, if you are, if you continue to look at this as person against person, we're not going to get anywhere to me. If you look at it, as these are thought viruses, I'm trying to change, it's a lot easier to have grace for other people as well. Karen Litzy (32:44): Yeah. Excellent. All right. Now that was a little bit of an action step, right? So let's talk about a very, very important step in allyship and that's action. So that was one and that's a great action, but what are some other things that would fall into the action category? Jennifer Hutton (33:01): So I split them up into immediate action and longterm action. And mainly because we're telling you slow down, educate yourself, and that can be hard cause like, well there's stuff that needs to be done. So your immediate action is you're protesting, signing petitions in the emails informing yourself about, you know, the politicians that are statewide local, all of those. And then speaking up against remarks. If you hear them now, one thing I want to say do not wear yourself out in the comments section of social media, because I'm sorry that anyone who comes into those comments extras, they're really not looking to learn anything and you're not going to teach them. So you have to let the energy out of it. Karen Litzy (33:45): Energy vampires, it's not worth, it's not worth it. Jennifer Hutton (33:48): It's not worth it. So that's not the action I need you to take. I need you to take that off the dock. Long term action would be continuing to having those discussions in your clinics, in your gyms, in your educational setting, to see where your blind spots are and what you really would like to do to move forward. I think I said earlier, you may get stuck at a step. And if you feel like it's something deep, rooted, get a therapist to actually help you talk through these things recognize it's a learning process, encourage others to do that work that you are doing. And if we're doing it already as healthcare clinicians, we learn things. We believe things. And then we use them in our practice, whether it be something in the biopsychosocial model about chronic pain, about certain, you know, systems that we use, we do it already. And you just have to decide that this is something that's important to you. And that honestly will be your guide when you get to that longterm action. Karen Litzy (34:55): And something that you'd mentioned in the webinar that I want to bring up again, is that when you're talking about these, this longterm action that it needs to be authentic and then you don't want it to do, you don't want to subscribe to tokenism. So we didn't really define tokenism. So why don't you define what that is and why we want to be authentic and not subscribe to it. Jennifer Hutton (35:18): So tokenism, the long and short is you are going to get that one person to represent diversity. I think I said, when we were talking before we started recording about if you are in an all white community, don't just go get a black person and say, that's our representation that is not authentic and it's probably not comfortable for them. Would you need to be able to identify that? So if you're just picking the black person or the person who's Mexican or Asian to say you have that voice, that would be your tokenism.   Karen Litzy: Yeah. And, I think that we certainly see that in a lot of facets of society. Definitely. Definitely. All right. Any other actions that you want to cover or do you think we've hit everything? Jennifer Hutton (36:20): I think, I think we've hit everything. I know I did a lot of steps for examining in the webinar, which if they wanted to see it by setting, they're definitely able to go in there. But my biggest takeaway from this is, I know we're in a manic period still where everybody is happening on this quote trend. So don't burn yourself out. It is a marathon, not a sprint. And so it will, it might be sticky. It might be difficult. It might be uncomfortable, but you have to decide whether this is what you believe in to keep going.   Karen Litzy: Excellent. Well, thank you. I was just going to ask what are your final thoughts and beat me to it. So thank you. Okay. Well on that, I have one last question that I ask everyone. And that's knowing where you are now in your life and in your career. What advice would you give to yourself straight out of physical therapy school?   Jennifer Hutton: Be patient be patient. I came out with the idea, I'm going to be a PT therapist and nothing's going to stop me and I'm going there and I'm doing this. Jennifer Hutton (37:18): And I had to take detours from the minute I graduated. My life did not look like what I thought it would, but where I am right now. I'm good. So it worked out how it was supposed to, so I would say, be patient.   Karen Litzy: Excellent. I'm still need to learn that one. I feel like things still need to be done yesterday. Thank you for that advice. And now where can people find your webinar?   Jennifer Hutton: Yes. So if you go to Instagram, dr. J-Pop, I actually have the link in my bio. I am probably by the time this comes out, it will be on my website as well.  That replay is there and it will be there until that platform doesn't exist. So hopefully forever.   Karen Litzy: Excellent. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate this. Like I said, I learned a lot, it was very introspective for me to go through your questions and to kind of understand the privilege that I came from, just for the fact that I was born with the skin that I have. Right, right. And it has nothing to do with, you know, just that one singular thing. It has given me privilege and listening to you and educating myself has really allowed me to, to see that, that very singular fact very clearly. So thank you very much for your webinar and for coming on. I appreciate it.  And everyone else. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.     Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts!

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Anne Stefanyk on the show to discuss website optimization.  As Founder and CEO of Kanopi Studios, Anne helps create clarity around project needs, and turns client conversations into actionable outcomes. She enjoys helping clients identify their problems, and then empowering the Kanopi team to execute great solutions. Anne is an advocate for open source and co-organizes the Bay Area Drupal Camp. In this episode, we discuss: -Why your website is one of your most important marketing tools -The art of simplicity in branding -How to track the customer lifecycle -The top tools you need to upgrade your website -And so much more! Resources: Anne Stefanyk Twitter Drupal Anne Stefanyk LinkedIn Kanopi Website HotJar Google Pagespeed Accessibility Insights WAVE Web Accessibility Google/Lighthouse Use user research to get insight into audience behavior How to make your site last 5 years (possibly more)   A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!  Learn more about Four Ways That Outpatient Therapy Providers Can Increase Patient Engagement in 2020!   For more information on Anne: As Founder and CEO of Kanopi Studios, Anne helps create clarity around project needs and turns client conversations into actionable outcomes. She enjoys helping clients identify their problems, and then empowering the Kanopi team to execute great solutions. Anne fell into the Drupal community in 2007 and admired both the community’s people and the constant quest for knowledge. After holding Director-level positions at large Drupal agencies, she decided she was ready to open Kanopi Studios in 2013. Her background is in business development, marketing, and technology, which allows her to successfully manage all facets of the business as well as provide the technical understanding to allow her to interface with engineers. She has accumulated years of professional Drupal hands-on experience, from basic websites to large Drupal applications with high-performance demands, multiple integrations, complicated migrations, and e-commerce including subscription and multi-tenancy. Anne is an advocate for open source and co-organizes the Bay Area Drupal Camp. When she’s not contributing to the community or running her thoughtful web agency, she enjoys yoga, meditation, treehouses, dharma, cycling, paddle boarding, kayaking, and hanging with her nephew.   Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy (00:01): Hey Anne, welcome to the podcast. I am so excited and happy to have you on. Anne Stefanyk (00:06): Nice to see you. Thank you so much for having me. Karen Litzy (00:09): So before we get into what we're going to talk about today, which is kind of how to use your website as a marketing tool, and that's putting it lightly, we're going to really dive into that, but I want to talk about kanopi. So for a lot of my listeners, they know that I'm a huge proponent of female entrepreneurs of women in physical therapy. We have a whole conference for it every year. And I love the fact that kanopi is a majority female company. So can you talk about the inception and kind of the journey that you've taken with the company over the years? Anne Stefanyk (00:47): Sure, I'd be happy to. So I founded kanopi kind of off the side of my desk and it actually came from meeting a need that I needed to take care of with my family. My family became quite sick and I had to stop working and as a result it forced my hand to pick up some contract work. And that contract works. Certain cuts soon kind of snowballed into, Oh my goodness, I have actual projects. I probably should hire some people and get out of my personal email to run the business. But it did come from a place where I needed some lifestyle flexibility. So I built a company that is fully distributed as well. And as a result of the business model that we created, it allowed us to really attract and retain really great talent. Outside of major cities. And I have a lot of single moms or a lot of moms and I have some single dads too, but we really are able to, with our business model, attract and retain a lot of top talent. Anne Stefanyk (01:39): And a lot of those are girls. So we're over 50% women and there's only really two men in our leadership, a team of nine. So there's seven girl bosses out of the nine that run the company. And we really have focused on helping people with their websites and making it really clear and simple and easy to understand. We find that there's always too much jargon out there. There's too much complexity and that we all are just craving simplicity. So building the business was twofold, was one to obviously help people with their websites. What was also to really create impactful futures for my staff and give them opportunities to kind of grow and expand in new ways. So I'm really proud that as kanopi has formed our team, I'm part of our retention plan has to really been to take care of our families and put our families first. Anne Stefanyk (02:28): Because if we realize that if you take care of the family, the family takes care of you. And so we've extended a lot of different benefits to be able to support the family journey as part of the business. And we find that as a female entrepreneur, really recognizing and appreciating that we need flexible lifestyles to be able to rear children or take care of elderly parents or we have a lot of demands as females on us. I mean the men do too, don't get me wrong, but as a female I'm creating a space of work where we can create that space for everybody really makes me proud. And happy. Karen Litzy (03:03): Yeah, I mean it's just in going through the website and reading about it, I was just like, Oh gosh, this woman's amazing. Like what a great way to go to work every day. Kind of knowing that you're staying true to what your values are and your mission is and that people really seem to like it. Anne Stefanyk (03:22): Yeah. Yeah. We always say it's not B to B or B to C, it's H to H it's human to human. And what do we need to get really clear to speak to our humans to help them, you know, move forward in their journey, whatever that looks like for them. Karen Litzy (03:34): Right. And, so now let's talk about that journey and it's kind of starts with the website. So let's talk about how you can make your website an effective marketing tool. Because not everyone, especially when you're first starting out, you don't have a lot of money to throw around to advertising and things like that. But we all have a website or maybe we all should have a website and have some sort of web presence. So how can we make that work for us? Anne Stefanyk (04:00): Yeah, definitely. You need a website. It's like a non negotiable factor these days and it really doesn't matter. The kind of website you have, especially when you're just getting started. There's lots of great tools out there from Wix, Squarespace, even WordPress that comes with templates or pre-baked themes. And I think the most important part is to really connect with your user and figure out who your user is and what kind of website needs to support their journey. But yeah, definitely you have to have a website and you actually have to have a good website. Having a bad website is the non, like, it's really bad because it will detract people so quickly and they'll never come back. So you pretty much have that first impression. And then if you don't make it, they won't come back. I think there's a well known stamp that if your site doesn't load within four seconds or three seconds they'll leave. And if it doesn't load within four seconds, they will never come back to that URL. Karen Litzy (04:56): Wow. All right. That's a great stat. I'm going to be, I'm going to go onto my computer, onto my website and start my timer, you know, so there's some really cool tools. Anne Stefanyk (05:06): We can include them in the show notes, but the Google has a page speed test where you can actually put your website URL and see how fast it is and give recommendations on what to fix. Karen Litzy (05:15): Oh perfect. Yeah, and we'll put all those links in the website and we'll get to that in a little bit about those different kinds of tools. But let's talk about, you said, you know, you're human to human business. We have to know who are we putting our website out there for. So how do we do that? Anne Stefanyk (05:34): Yeah, that's a great question. So when you're first starting off, you probably all like if you're just starting your business, you're just trying to figure out who you serve, but you may have special things that you'd like to, you know, that you're passionate about or you specialize in. Like for example, maybe you really specialize in women's health or sports medicine or you know, one of those things. And just to kind of get clear on who is your best customer. If you've been in business for a couple of years, you probably have a pretty good idea who your ideal customer is and how they engage with you. So first off, it's really thinking about who your target audience is and what are their needs. So when we're thinking about a website and thinking about that user journey, you often identify them as certain people. So you may have like, Mmm you know, kind of creating different avatars or different personas so you can really personify these people and help understand their journey. Anne Stefanyk (06:27): And from there you kind of understand that if someone's coming to you for physical therapy, there's going to be different mind States that they come into you with. So when you first have your website, you're going to want to, of course, a lot of people just put up who they are. Like, you know, this is my practice, this is who I am. This is my credit, my accreditation, and my certifications. And maybe maybe here's some testimonials. And then we run and we go off to the races. And that's great to get you out the door. Once you started your business, you're going to recognize that you're people, when they call you, they're going to have a million questions and there's ways to answer those questions using your website. And as a solo entrepreneur, like I ran my business by myself for three years, which means I was everything and I wore all the hats. Anne Stefanyk (07:09): I was the project manager, I was the designer, I was all the things that was the marketer, was the, I know that feeling well. So it took me like three years to operationalize. And I think the first thing I did as a female entrepreneur, I hired an assistant. I would highly recommend that as being one of your first hires as an entrepreneur. And that's just someone who can do all the little itty bitty details and then move on to whatever that looks like for you. But when you're building your website, the next level you really need to take is it serving my humans? Is it serving my audience? So are they able to get the information they need? And I think this strange time that we're in, we're all, this is an opportunity for us to look at our own website and our own stuff and say, is this the best representation possible? Anne Stefanyk (07:52): Because no longer are they just picking up the phone and calling you because your practice is probably closed. You're at home right now, your phones, maybe you if you have them redirected, but either way they're going to your website first. So it's like having the right information there at the right time for the right person. And that really comes to the user journey and that's where you know, if someone is just broken their ankle and they're now told by their doctor, you have to go into physical therapy, that's their first stage as they now are going to Google and saying, you know, PT for San Francisco and interestingly enough as Google wants to keep you there, so here you are. You user is Googling for you or Googling for physical therapy wherever, San Francisco, San Jose, wherever, and up comes the Google listings. If you can get past that point, then they go into your website and they're going to click open a bunch of them. Anne Stefanyk (08:43): That's what we call, you know, your awareness phase. They're becoming aware of you. There's certain things that a user wants to see in that phase. So understanding of someone's looking for you, they're going to, Oh yeah, they specialize in ankles. And I really think you know, Oh, that's person's for me. Versus now they're in the consideration stage and now they've chose likely, but Sally over here and James and Jimmy and we're figuring out which PT to go to, then that's a different level of content and what are they looking at to compare and contrast. And then when they've actually decided to work with you, then there's another layer of content you have to consider. So, Oh, I've decided to work where they're located. How do I get there? Was there anything I need to prepare their forms I need to fill out in advance? Anne Stefanyk (09:27): And then you even have the persona of the user once they've actually gone through all your services as I imagine. And therapy. A lot of you folks are getting referral and word of mouth. Let's nurture that. Let's use the website to nurture the word of mouth and referral work. Let's give your patients a place to go really easily to provide feedback, which will then change, you know, getting those Google reviews up leads to a higher ranking on that Google page. So if you understand where they began and where they pop out at the end, kind of map it all together. You'll start to see your gaps.   Karen Litzy: And is it possible to go through sort of a quick example of what that might look like? So if someone's there on Google, they hit Google, they click on your website, you just said if it doesn't load within a couple of seconds, they're gone. Anne Stefanyk (10:14): Right? So that's a good awareness phase situation, right? What else? Someone's there, they're just click, click, click trying to find someone. What is it that they're looking for in that awareness stage? Like what are they, what is going to be like, Ooh, I like this, this person. I'm moving them from the awareness bucket to the consideration bucket. Yeah, yeah. So they need to see themselves in the way that their problem gets solved. So when they look at the website, they can say, Oh yeah, that person had the same problem and they got help. And then, Oh, look at their results. Oh look, there's a picture of them, you know, back on their skateboard six months later as part of this patient follow-up log. Oh, we don't, you know. So that's the kind of stuff is that when users really want to just be able to see themselves, they crave simplicity. Anne Stefanyk (11:01): And so often I think that if we're too close to it, we don't actually see how complex our stuff is. And sometimes when we're really smart and we have degrees in specialized things, we use vocabulary that our users are not even aware of yet. So it's really when you're talking to getting them from that awareness into considering you, it's about using really basic common language. It's about guiding them through a bit of a story. People love to read stories. So showing them like, Oh, you know, I was really showing another patient and showing the patient journey that all, I considered multiple companies locally, but I ultimately went with Sally as a PT because this, and just showing those things helps the user kind of see the whole journey so they can say, okay, okay, if you've never broken your ankle before, have no idea what to expect. You've never gone to physical therapy, you have no idea what to expect. And just the anticipation, if you can show them what snacks they feel a sense of relief that they'll be taken care of. Karen Litzy (12:04): Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that your testimonial page on your website's pretty important, is that something that should be front and center on the homepage? Anne Stefanyk (12:16): Well, that's an interesting thing. I think the main thing you want to use that front and center is being really clear about what you do. Right? Some people like to put these big sentences up there, but getting to know your user and the problem they have and this, you know, getting to how you're going to solve the problem is the most important part of that, of that real estate upfront. I will warn everybody that please don't use carousels. They're a big fad and they're just a fad. They're from a usability standpoint. And what happens is the end user thinks that whatever you put in your carousel is what you do. So if you're promoting an event in your carousel, they'll think that you're just doing the events. Anne Stefanyk (13:01): They won't even know that you're a physical therapist. Really clear upfront about what you do. You know, like I help people with, you know, however it goes, and then provide supporting content. So a testimonial is wonderful if it can also be like imbedded within a bigger story. So it tells the full story. I like that video. I mean everybody has an iPhone. So, or at least access to video really easily. You could do a quick little video testimonial with one of your clients over zoom for two minutes to say, Hey, you're one of my favorite PT clients and can you get on a quick video with me and just do a video testimonial. That's great way to leverage video content on your website to help the user see themselves as what the solution's going to be. Karen Litzy (13:47): Yeah. Great, great, awesome. And then one stipulation I would say on that is talk to your lawyer because you'll need them to sign a release for HIPAA purposes, right? To make sure that they know exactly where this video is going to be. You have to be very clear on that. Okay, great. So we're out of the awareness phase, so we're in consideration. So let's say it's between me and one other PT in New York city. What should I be looking at on my website to get that person from consideration to yes. Anne Stefanyk (14:20): So one of the greatest ways to do stuff is actually a very tried and it's email marketing or text-based marketing. So if you can capture an email during that awareness phase, even if it's just like you know, Mmm. Interested in getting some tips and tricks on how to rejuvenate your bone health during, you know, it doesn't have to be like sign up for a newsletter or sign up for this. It could be just a very simple, if you know your user is coming there specifically for a thing and you can provide some type of value added content, then there might be some small way to get a snippet of data so that you can continue the conversation. Cause most people are just bombarded with information and overwhelmed. So if there's any way to connect with them so you can feed them information. But another great way to kind of pull them into that consideration content is once you've got their eyeballs hooked and you're in, there is again to kind of figure out what are the common things, questions they need to have, they have answers they need answers to. Anne Stefanyk (15:22): And this might be from your experience, just answering phone calls when people are starting to talk to you. But it's like the questions like you know, maybe how long does it take for me to heal, you know, will I have different types of medicine I'm going to have to take? How much homework will there be? Do I need any special equipment? That's kind of, you know, just showing that you're the expert in the field and you have the answers to questions they didn't even know they had to ask. That kind of aha moment makes them feel really trusted. They trust you because they go, Oh I didn't even think about asking that question. Oh my goodness, I'm so glad they thought about that. I feel so taken care of. And that's where I think a lot of websites drop the ball is they straight up say like this is what we do, here's some testimonials. And they don't put all that soft content and that builds the trust. Can be a little blog, a little FAQ section and this is all like non technical stuff. You don't need a developer to do any of this. It's mostly just your writing time. Karen Litzy (16:18): Yeah, no and it's making me go through my head of my FAQ, so I'm like, Hmm, maybe I need to revisit. That's the one page I just sort of did a revamp of my website. We were talking about this before we went on, but I actually did not go to my FAQ page cause I thought to myself, Oh, it's probably good. It's probably not. I need to go back and do a little revamp on that too, just to think about some of the questions that I've been getting from patients recently and how does this work and things like that. Especially now with COVID. You know, like what about tele-health? What about this or about that? Anne Stefanyk (16:51): Yeah. Google loves when you update your content. Google loves it. Google loves it so much. It is one of the biggest disservices you can do is build your website and leave it. That's just not healthy. People think you have to rebuild your website every two to three years. That's who we are. That's bananas. You have to do it. If you just take care of your website and you nurture it and you love it and you make it, you make it work and you continually work on it and maybe that's just an hour a week, maybe it's an hour every month, whatever it is. Just a little bit of attention really goes a long way and it is something that we believe a website should last for at least 10 years, but that means you got to take care of it, right. A lot of clients come to me and say, Oh well, you know we're going to have to rebuild this in three years, and I'm like, no, you shouldn't. Anne Stefanyk (17:31): It should be totally fine. It's just like if you get a house right, if you don't do anything with your house a hundred years later, it's probably demolished. Like you're going to tear it down versus you've got to do the roof and you've got to replace the carpets and you got to do the perimeter drain. Right. It's kind of the website stuff too. I mean, Google will throw you curve balls if you're spending a lot time on social. Unless you're getting direct business from social media, don't worry about it so much. Google has changed their algorithms, which means that social doesn't count for as much as it did. Oh, so if you're spending two or three hours a week scheduling social, unless you're directly getting benefit, like from direct users, finding one social tone that way down and spend more time writing blogs, spending more time getting you know content on your website is, that's what matters from a Google standpoint. Karen Litzy (18:16): Good to know. Gosh, this is great. So all right, the person has now moved from consideration. They said, yes, I'm going to go and see Karen. This is what I've decided. Awesome. So now how can I make their patient journey a little bit easier?   Anne Stefanyk: So we started at Google, they got from awareness to consideration. They said yes. Now what? Yeah, now what? So it's continuing the conversation and creating kind of being ahead of them. So text messages, 99% of text messages are open and read. Okay. Yeah, I think it's like 13 to 20% of emails are open read. So it would be skillful for you to gather a phone number so then you can text them, alerts, reminders, et cetera. That's a great way. There's a wonderful book called how to, what is it? Never lose a customer again. And it's beautiful. It's a beautiful book. Anne Stefanyk (19:11): It applies to any business. And it really talks about like how when you're engaging with a new client, the first two stages of that are the are the sales and presales. But then you have six steps. Once a person becomes your clients on how to nurture and engage and support that client journey. And that might just be simply as like if they're deciding to work with you and they book their first appointments, there's a lot of cool video. You could just do a little video recording and say, you know, thank you so much for booking an appoint with me. I'm so excited. I really honor the personal relationship that we have together and I want to build trust. So this is a just, and then giving them like a forum to then ask the question to you. So just building that relationship. Cause even though your clients, I mean if they're coming for PT, they might just be a onetime client. Anne Stefanyk (19:57): But again, they also might have lots of friends and family and that works. So when their friends and family and network happened to have that, how do you also kind of leverage the website that way? But a lot of it is just clarity. And you'll notice that big way to find out what's missing is interview your last few clients that have signed up, find out what they found was easy, what was difficult, what they wish they had more information. And if they're a recent enough client, they'll still remember that experience and us humans love to help. It's in their nature, right? So you should never feel worried about asking anybody for advice or insights on this. You know, there's even a little tool that you can put on your websites. It's a tool, there's a free version called Hotjar, hot and hot jar. Anne Stefanyk (20:47): And it's pretty easy to install. We actually have a blog post on how to install it too. It's really, we'll put that blog posts, but what it allows you to do is it allows you to see where people are clicking and whether they're not clicking on your website. So you can actually analyze, you know it's all anonymous, right? It's all anonymously tracked, but you can do screencast and you can do with these color heatmaps, you can kind of see where people are going. You can track this and it's free, right? Three you can do up to three pages for free. So I feel like the guys looking at stuff like that, you kind of get the data that you need to figure out where your gaps are because what you don't know is what you don't know, right? So I first recommend like getting clear on who your user is, you know, if you specifically take care of a certain set, figuring out where their journey is, what kind of content you'd need for each of those and what the gaps are. And then filled out a content calendar to fill the gaps. Karen Litzy (21:42): Got it. And a content calendar could be like a once a month blog post. It doesn't have to be every day. And I even think that can overwhelm you're patients or potential patients, right? Cause we're just inundated. There's so much noise, but if you have like a really great blog that comes out once a month and gets a lot of feedback on it, then people will look forward to that. Anne Stefanyk (22:11): Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And I mean, humans want to get clarity, they want to receive value. And right now we live in an intention economy where everything is pinging at them. So realistically, the only way to break through the noise is just to be really clear and provide what they need. Simple. It's just simple. It's actually, you just simplify it, remove the jargon, you know, make it easy. And I mean a blog post, it could be as short as 300 words. You don't need to write a massive thing. You can even do a little video blog. Yeah. You don't like writing, you can just do a little video blog and embedded YouTube video and boom, you're done. Right? Karen Litzy (22:46): Yeah. Yeah. I love this because everything that you're saying doesn't take up a lot of time. Cause like we said before, when you're first starting out as a new entrepreneur, you feel like you've been pulled in a million different directions. But if you can say, I'm going to take one hour, like you said, one hour a month to do a website check-in, right? One hour a month to get a blog post together or shoot a quick video. Like you said, we've all got phones embedded in every device we own these days. So it doesn't take a lot. And I love all those suggestions. Okay. So now I'm in the nurturing phase and what we've done is, because I didn't use jargon, I was simple, clear to the point, filled in the gaps for them. Now those patients that who have come to see me are referring their friends to me and we're starting it all over again. So it's sort of this never ending positive cycle. Anne Stefanyk (23:41): Exactly, exactly. And that's what we really frame. We call it continuous improvement, which is the methodology of that. You always need to be taking care of it, nurturing it, loving it. Because if you just let it sit, it will do you no good. Right. And that's where you know, when you're that little bit of momentum and it's about pacing yourself and choosing one goal at a time. Like if you're feeling like, Oh my gosh, where am I going to start? What am I going to do? You know, just say, okay, I just want my site to go faster. Just pick one goal. You run it through the speed test, it's scoring forward of a hundred you're like, Oh, I need to make my site faster. So then you look at that and you say, okay, I've learned, you know, big images create large page speed load. So it'll tell, you can go through and look at your images and say, Oh, I need to resize this image. Or maybe I need, if I'm using WordPress, put a plugin that automatically resizes all my images. You know, a lot of it is content driven that you can kind of make your cycle faster with an accessibility. Accessibility is so dear and near to my heart. Karen Litzy (24:44): When you say accessibility for a website, what exactly does that mean? Anne Stefanyk (24:48): I mean, yes. So that means that it is technically available for people of all types of ranges of ability from someone who is visually impaired to someone who is physically impaired, temporarily or permanently disabled. So if you think about someone who's got a broken arm and maybe it's her dominant arm. I'm doing everything with my left. Try using a screen reader on your own website and you will be shocked that if you can't type you know with your hands and you're going to dictate to it, you'll be a, is how your computer does not actually understand your words. So it's about making your website really technically accessible with consideration. Four, font size, color contrast. Yeah. Images need to have what we call alt tags, which is just a description. So if your image is like one, two, three, four, five dot JPEG, you would actually want to rename it as lady sitting in a chair reading in a book dot JPEG because that's what a screen reader reads. Oh. So it's about the technical stuff, so that if somebody needs to use a screen reader or if somebody can't use their hands from physical, they can't type, they're reading, they're listening to the website. It's about structural, putting it together correctly so the tools can output. Karen Litzy (26:12): Mmm. Wow. I never even thought of that. Oh my gosh, this is blowing my mind. Anyway, so there's tools out there to look, let's talk about if you want to just maybe give a name to some of those tools. So how about to check your websites? Anne Stefanyk (26:28): Yeah, so it's Google page speed and it's just a website that you can go in and put your URL. There's another plugin called lighthouse, and lighthouse is a plugin that you can use through Chrome. And then you just on that and it'll output a report for you. And some of it's a little nerdy, right? And some of it's, you know, some of it's very clear. I love it. They, they'll put some jargon, let's just say that they don't quite understand that not everybody understands laptop, but if you're on a tool like Shopify or Squarespace or Wix, which a lot of like first time entrepreneurs, that's a great place to start. It's really affordable. They take care of a lot of those things built in. So that's the benefit of kind of standing on the shoulders of giants when it comes to those. But lighthouse is a good tool because it checks accessibility, performance, SEO and your coding best practices. Karen Litzy (27:28): Oh wow. Okay. So that's a good tool. Cool, any other tools that we should know about that you can think of off the top of your head? If not, we can always put more in the show notes if people want to check them out. But if you have another one that you wanted to throw out there, I don't want to cut you off, if you've got more. Anne Stefanyk (27:45): Oh no worries. There's lots of different checkers and I think the big thing error is just to be able to understand the results. So I'm always a big fan of making technology really accessible. So if you do need help with that, you know, feel free to reach out and I can get more help. But generally we look at search engine optimization, which is are you being found in Google? And there's some tools like SEO. Moz is one. And then we look at accessibility, is it accessible to all people and then we look at performance, can it go fast, fast, and then we look at code quality, right? Like you want to make sure you're doing your security updates cause it's a heck of a lot cheaper to do your security updates than unpack yourself if there is. Karen Litzy (28:27): Oh gosh. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, like you said, on some of those websites, that security part might be in like already embedded in that or is that, do you recommend doing an external security look at your website as well? Anne Stefanyk (28:44): Exactly. Most of the time when you're using a known platform like Shopify or if you're using WordPress or Drupal, then what you want to do is you want to work with a reliable hosting provider so they will help you provide your security updates. It's just like you would always want to lock your car when you would go out in the city. It's just like some do your security updates. So, but yeah, that's the benefit of being on some of these larger platforms is they have some of that stuff baked in. You pay a monthly fee but you don't have to worry about it. Karen Litzy (29:14): Right. Perfect. Perfect. And gosh, this was so much good information. Let's talk a little bit about, since we are still in the midst of this COVID pandemic and crisis and what should we be doing with our websites now specifically to sort of provide that clarity and calmness that maybe we want to project while people are still a little, I mean, I watch the news people are on edge here. Anne Stefanyk (29:47): Yeah. I think everybody's a little on edge, especially as things are starting to open. But nervous about it. All right. So I think the main thing that you can do is provide clear pathways. So if you haven't already put an alert on your website or something, right on your homepage, that speaks to how you're handling COVID that would be really skillful in, that could just be if you, you know, Mmm. Some people have an alert bar, they can put up, some people use a blog post and they feature it as their blog posts. Some people use a little block on their home page, but just something that helps them understand that what that is, and I'm sure most of you have already responded to that cause you had to write, it was like the first two weeks, all of our clients were like, we got to put something on our website. Anne Stefanyk (30:26): Right. And so, from there is I think being very mindful about how overwhelmed your peoples are and not trying to flood them with like tips and tricks on how to stay calm or how to parent or how to, you know, like that's where everybody's kind of like on overwhelm of all the information. So for right now, I would say that it's a wonderful time to put an alert up so people visit your site. If you've switched to telehealth and telemedicine, it'd be a great time to actually clarify how to do that. So if they're like, okay, I'm going to sign up for this and I want to work with you. Mmm. But how does it work? Are we gonna do it through zoom? Is it through Skype? Is it through FaceTime? Is my data secure? You know, like you said, updating all your FAQ is like, we're in this weird space where we really have almost like no excuse to not come out of this better. Anne Stefanyk (31:16): You know, as an entrepreneur we have this like lurking sense of like, okay, I gotta make sure I'm doing something. And the web is a great place to start because it is your first impression. And to kind of go through your content, and maybe it is if you don't have a blog set up is setting up a blog and just putting one up there or writing two or three and not publishing it until you have two or three. But it is kind of figuring out what is your user need and how do you make it really easy for them to digest. Karen Litzy (31:41): Perfect. And now before we kind of wrap things up, I'll just ask you is there anything that we missed? Anything that you want to make sure that the listeners walk away with from this conversation? Anne Stefanyk (31:56): I think the big thing is that this can all get really confusing and overwhelming very quickly. And all you need to just think about is your humans that you're servicing and like how can I make their journey easier? And even if it's like if nothing else, you're like, Hey, I'm going to get a text messaging program set up because I'm going to be able to actually communicate with them a lot faster and a lot easier. Or, Hey, I'm just going to focus on getting more five stars reviews on my Google profiles, so I show up. I'm just going to make that the focus. So I think the big thing is just a one thing at a time, and because we're in a pandemic, set your bar really low and celebrate when you barely hit it because we're all working on overwhelm and overdrive and we're all exhausted and our adrenals are depleted. Even in overdrive syndrome for like 11 weeks or something. Now I know it's kind of like, Oh my goodness, my websites maybe a hot mess. I'm going to get one thing and I'm going to give myself a lot of wiggle room to make sure that I can take care of the pressing needs and just being really like patient because it isn't a journey where you're going to have your website and your entire business. Karen Litzy (33:00): Yeah. We never got to turn off your website. Right. I hope not. Oh, you never will. Right. Telemedicine is going to give you a new kind of way to practice too. It's revolutionizing the way we treat patients. A hundred percent yeah, absolutely. I personally have have been having great success and results with telehealth. And so I know that this is something that will be part of my practice going forward, even as restrictions are lowered. I mean here in New York, I mean you're in San Francisco, like we're both in areas that are on pretty high alert still. But this is something that's definitely gonna be part of my practice. So if there is a silver lining to come out of this really horrible time, I think that is one of them. From a healthcare standpoint, I think it's been a game changer because you're still able to help as you put it, help your humans, you know, help those people so that they're not spinning out on their own. So I love it. Now final question and I ask everyone this, knowing where you are in your life and in your career, what advice would you give yourself as a new graduate right out of college? So it's before, even before you started. Anne Stefanyk (34:21): Yes, yes. Honor my downtime. I think especially as a girl boss, that's always like, I've been an entrepreneur pretty much since I was in high school. I never took weekends and evenings for myself until I became like a little older. I would've definitely done more evenings and weekends because the recharge factor is just amazing for the brain. When you actually let it rest, it figures out all the problems on its own, get out of your own way and it'll like just, you know, even this COVID stuff. I find it so interesting that you know, as a boss you feel like you want to do so much and you want to get it done and you want to help your staff and you've got to figure out how to be there for them and then it's like, wait, you gotta put on your own mask before you put it on the others. Anne Stefanyk (35:04): And I feel like healthcare professionals, it's like so important for you to honor that little bit of downtime that you have now. Yeah, I mean, if I knew that back then, I'd probably be way stronger way would have honored myself. And as a woman, self care seems, we put it like second to our business and our families and second, third, fourth, fifth. So it's like, you know, advice to pass out. Let's take care of you. Yeah. It will be great. You will do wonderful things. Take care of you. You'll feel great. You know, I broke my ankle because I wasn't taking care of myself. Yeah. Karen Litzy (35:36): Oh wow. What advice. Yeah. Honor the downtime. I think that's great. And I think it's something that a lot of people just don't do. They think that in that downtime you should be doing something else. So you're failing. Anne Stefanyk (35:48): Yeah. And it's just so silly. It's just this weird, you know mental game that we have to play with ourselves. I listened to one of your recent podcasts and I just loved the girl that was on there said like, you know, successes is 20% skill, 80% of mind game. And I could not agree with that. You know, having a company full of women, imposter syndrome is the number one thing that I help coach my females with. It's like, no, you know exactly what you're doing because nobody knows what they're doing. We all learn, right? There's no textbook for a lot of this stuff. Like we went to school, there was a textbook, there was structure. We got out of school and now we're like go learn. It's like okay, okay so I find the entrepreneurial journey so cool. And that means like kind of like also finding out other tribes like where can we lean into and that's why I love you have this podcast cause it really focuses on like building a tribe of entrepreneurs that are focusing on taking it to the next level. Like how can we be empowering them to do their best, be their best selves. Karen Litzy (36:47): Exactly. I'm going to just use that as a tagline from now on for the buck. Perfect marketing tagline. Well and thank you so much. Where can people find more about you and more about kanopi. Anne Stefanyk (37:00): So you can go to kanopi or you can simply just look for me just go to kanopi on the Googles and you'll find me. But if you want to reach out via LinkedIn or anywhere, I'm always just a big fan of helping people make technology really clear and easy to understand. So find me on LinkedIn or on stuff and we can chat more there. Karen Litzy (37:23): Awesome. Well thank you so much. And to everyone listening, we'll have all of the links that we spoke about today and I know there were a lot, but they're all going to be in the show notes at podcasts.healthywealthysmart.com under this episode. So Anne, you have given so much great information. I can't thank you enough. Anne Stefanyk (37:39): Well thank you so much for it. I'm really grateful for the work that you're doing. I think it's fantastic. Karen Litzy (37:45): Thank you. And everyone else. Thank you so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.     Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts!

Tandem presented new studies at the recent ADA conference and got approval for some of the youngest people with diabetes to use their newest tech. Steph Habif is Tandem’s Senior Director of Behavioral Sciences. She shares what those studies found, gives us more information about Control IQ and touches on what products are up next for the company. Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Listen to our previous episodes with Tandem Diabetes In Tell Me Something Good, great news about college scholarships for students with type 1. Diabetes Scholars info here  Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android   Episode Transcript:   Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes and by Dexcom , take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom .   Announcer  0:16 This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms.   Stacey Simms  0:22 This week, Tandem presented new studies at the recent ADA conference and got approval for some of the youngest people with diabetes to use their newest technology. But Tandem is also keeping a close eye on including many more people in future studies.   Steph Habif  0:37 It's a shared responsibility across many communities to figure out how to make it easier for different types of people to be included in this research.   Stacey Simms  0:48 That's Steph Habif, Tandem’s Senior Director of Behavioral Sciences. We'll talk more about what communities she means there and why Tandem wants to reach out more. And of course, we talked about Control IQ And what's next for Tandem? In Tell me something good great news about college scholarships for students with type one. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider.   Welcome to another week of Diabetes Connections. I am so glad to have you along. I am your host Stacey Simms. We aim to educate and inspire about diabetes by sharing stories of connection. This time of year we are sharing a lot of stories about technology and studies and that is because the American Diabetes Association Scientific Sessions conference has recently concluded so every year at this time, there's new information. Sometimes it is also timed with FDA approvals like we saw last week with the Libre 2 and with Tandems approval that we're going to talk about for the Control IQ software to be used down to age six. It means a lot of information. It means some bonus episodes, it means some playing with the schedule. Because just trying to get this information out in podcast form can be a little bit more difficult. But you know, that's what I am here for what I love to do If you're new, my son was diagnosed with Type One Diabetes right before he turned to my husband lives with type two diabetes. I don't have diabetes, I have a background in broadcasting and local radio and television news. And that's how you get this podcast. And just a quick note about my son Benny, I realized the other day, so we're 13 and a half years in with type one, which means we're coming up July 4 which his 13 year anniversary of wearing an insulin pump, which I cannot believe and I remember it like it was yesterday. So I'm going to maybe do an episode or talk about that in another episode, looking back on what's changed and you know how to pick an insulin pump and all that kind of stuff, but oh my gosh, oh, I can't believe he's 15. Speaking of Benny, the world's worst diabetes mom is now available in more places. My publisher reached out to me. We are now sold online at Target and Barnes and Noble and pretty much expanding to every place You can buy a book online, I didn't realize this was a thing that we started on Amazon and now we are elsewhere, which shows that it's a good thing that I have these people to help me out. But it's also available in library form. And I'm still investigating this. So as you listen, if you get ebooks, that's the library form, it would have to be an E book, you know, Kindle or something like that. If you have a service that gets you library books, check it out, let me know where it is. Because I haven't been able to exactly track that down with COVID. I think there's some issues. I'm trying to get the hardcopy into libraries too. So that's something that you could really help me out with. And I have to give a big shout out to Molly Cooper. Molly lives in the UK. She sent me a message that she really enjoyed the book. It was so nice of her to reach out like that. So of course, I asked her a little bit about it. You know, I have some UK readers, but I'm interested in the process. There's a different Amazon site for different countries. So I was just interested in how it all worked. And then she posted in one of the diabetes parenting Facebook groups that she belonged in, and oh my god. Molly, thank you so much. A bunch of people talked about the book. And it was such a nice thing for you to do. So if you've read and enjoyed the world's worst diabetes Mom, I always ask please leave a review on Amazon that helps us so much when people are looking to see if they want to buy the book or get the book. But if you could also post in your Facebook group or on your timeline about it and tag me, but it would be so helpful to spread the word because let's face it, this isn't gonna show up in the New York Times Review of Books, right we have the community to spread the word and it may be immodest to say but I do think it's a book that can help people it's not just our story. There's a lot of advice in there and a lot of learning that I did over the years, I believe very much in it and I really appreciate those of you who are already spreading the word if you're ready and you don't like it forget you know me! In just a moment I'm going to be talking to Tandem’s, Steph Habif about Control IQ, new studies and lots more. But first diabetes Connections is brought to you by a One Drop and getting diabetes supplies. It's a pain let's face it. Not only the ordering the people up the arguing with insurance over what they say you need and what you really need. Make it easy with One Drop. They have our personalized tester plans, plus you get a Bluetooth glucose meter test strips lancets and your very own certified diabetes coach. Subscribe today to get test strips for less than $20 a month delivered right to your door. No prescriptions no co pays required. One less thing to worry about. not that surprising when you learn the founder of One Drop lips with type one, they get it One Drop gorgeous gear supplies delivered to your door 24 seven access to your certified diabetes coach learn more go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the One Drop logo. My guest this week is Steph Habif. She is the Senior Director of Behavioral Sciences at Tandem which means she really advocates for the people who use the technology. She presented some of the studies we're gonna be talking about at ADA and of course has presented elsewhere and a quick note if you are new to the show, we use The Tandem system. They're not a sponsor of the show, but I know I am biased toward Tandem. So I want to make that disclosure. First thing I just love the way it works. Look, it's not perfect nothing is but we have been using Tandem for three years now. We switched from Animas insulin pump in August of 2017, just as the Dexcom G 5 update was approved for for Tandem. So basically we got a pump and then we immediately updated the software. We have done two other updates the basal IQ last year and we went to Control IQ in late January pretty much just as it hit the market. I can't believe it has been six months already. So well. I don't think that influenced the actual questions I'm asking. It certainly influences how I feel about the system. So here is my interview with Tandems, Steph Habif. Steph, thank you for joining me. I'm so excited to talk about Tandem and learn more. Thanks for being here.   Steph Habif  6:55 Thanks for having me. I've been a listener of yours for a while so it's a real pleasure. Thank you very much   Stacey Simms  7:02 this year's ADA very different may start by just asking you what that was like for you to to present and have to do everything virtually.   Steph Habif  7:08 Yeah, it was definitely, I think unique and interesting experience for a lot of us especially people who regularly attend the ADA each year. And I'm not gonna lie. My favorite part about the event is getting to see people and kind of have very energized Creative Conversations together in person, I think a lot of brainstorming and some of the best ideas, birth from, you know, getting together with kids from all over the world at meetings like that. So that part was kind of missing, obviously this year. But given what's happening in the world, I think it was put on fabulously well produced really, really nicely. The excitement leading up to the conference was there that was a part of my experience this year for sure, like every year, and then it all happens through email and chat and tech So my eyes hurt. At the end of the conference, I think my eyesight has taken a little bit of a hit in the past couple months, like a lot of other people. But there was some very exciting information that got presented.   Stacey Simms  8:12 Yeah, let's talk about some of that. We've talked about Control IQ in depth before its launch or right as it was launched. Tell us about some of the presentations here. I know one of them was Control IQ in the real world, the first 30 days. Tell me about that.   Steph Habif  8:29 Yeah, so that was a proud moment for me and my team, the scientific posters that we presented at this year's ADA. I think one of the people you have had on your podcast to talk about Control IQ is Molly Malloy and she's on my team here at Tandem, we get to work together. She was one of the researchers whose name was on these presentations at ADA and the first 30 days. That was really our first look under the hood, so to speak. So one of the things that my team here at Tandem is responsible for is post market surveillance and user experience research. Meaning once the FDA approves or clears a medical device, like the T slim X2 and people start using it in their everyday lives, the job of my team is to observe, measure, learn, how's that going for people? whether it has to do with their glycemic outcomes, like time and range, or quality of life, things like how's your sleep? Those are all the things that we're responsible for researching and studying. Now, what we did for a DEA was we didn't have very much time with Control IQ in the market before the ADA deadline presented itself. So Control IQ came to the US market starting mid January, and we had to have all of our materials submitted to ADA by the second week of March, so not a lot of time. So like I said, sort of first look Under the hood, meaning we went into our databases into our T Connect web application, back end systems, and we use some research methodologies to kind of see how it was going for people. What sort of glycemic trends and outcomes were we seeing for the early adopters right out of the gate, and we specifically focused on folks who software updated. So I think Benny's a software updater - he was on Basal IQ leading up to Control IQ. And how old is Benny? Again? He's 15. So he was probably included in our analysis. Absolutely. So sorry, no. Yeah, so anybody who was age 14 or older and had at least 21 days of use on control, IQ technology, leading up to march 11, was included in this analysis. So   Stacey Simms  10:52 he was he was definitely in there. And you would have seen a great response. I don't mind telling you.   Steph Habif  10:56 Yeah, so this information that we presented at ADA Like I said, we didn't have that much time. So really data mining to look at glycemic outcomes. So it was a retrospective data analysis exercise, essentially, which is a very common thing to do when it's your first look at sort of what's happening in the real world. And we were really pleased to discover that overall real world users are experiencing an increase in time and range of 10%. Before updating to Control IQ. The folks in this study had a time in range of about 68%. And throughout their first 30 days on controlling IQ, they experienced an increase to get that overall time and range metric to 78%. And what's exciting about that is that 10% jump matches what we saw in our control, IQ clinical trial.   Stacey Simms  11:53 Did you have any data about ease of use? In other words, do people continuously use it? Did people have sensor issues? If you have have problems figuring out how to adjust anything I know it's it's tough to glean in such a short time. I'm just curious if you learned anything else.   Steph Habif  12:06 So for the purpose of what we presented at ADA, we kind of kept it really simple. Again, because we didn't have very much time we mined data we we worked with what was available to us. And so we really focused on things like changes in time and range hyperglycemia hypoglycemia, and we didn't for the purposes of what was presented at ADA, talk about quality of life, things like sleep improvement, but what we do know is that for the folks who were included in this analysis, overall, they experienced the percent of time in closed loop automation was 96%. And that's really exciting. Now for the Control IQ technology system. The only reason a user isn't in automation is if they lose connection with their CGM for 20 or more minutes, that's it. And then once CGM is reconnected automatically, you're back in that automation close loop. So that's really elegant and simple. And that came through in these metrics that we presented at ADA.   Stacey Simms  13:17 Yeah. So that's interesting. I mean, not to jump to a conclusion. But let me just make sure I'm hearing you right. So we can pretty much conclude if 96% of people using Control IQ, excuse me, if people using Control IQ stayed using it 96% of the time in automation. That means that their sensors were working that things were chugging along just as they should.   Steph Habif  13:35 Yes. And thank you for bringing that up. So we have some consensus guidelines on data integrity for this type of research. When you're doing real world research like this, the guideline is for the purposes of data integrity, to include CGM rates that are 70 to 75% or above. So what that means is in our analyses for the ADA we included people who had at least 75% CGM connectivity over that 60 day period. Now in the clinical trial for Control IQ, the investigators reported CGM connectivity in the high 90s. That was a way that we could sort of control for that variable given that we were doing a retrospective data analysis, if that makes sense.   Stacey Simms  14:27 Yeah, it does. Because it's really important. And you know, this people in the diabetes community, there's separate issues here, right? There's Control IQ. There's the Tandem pump, but there's the Dexcom  sensors, which Listen, it's not a Dexcom  interview here. But we've talked a lot on this podcast about people who just have trouble with the sensors, and sensor failures and things. So I'm glad to hear you clarify because I'll be honest, that 96% number didn't really sound real world to me, but it makes a lot more sense when you understand that it's already looking at people who have good sensor luck. I don't know what to call it. Good sensor usage or It lasts.   Unknown Speaker  15:01 Connectivity.   Stacey Simms  15:03 Yes, connectivity, that’s what I was looking for. Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. There was another study, if I'm reading this correctly about people with type one and type two, use the Control IQ. I didn't know anybody was type two was was really using it. Can you speak to that?   Steph Habif  15:16 Yeah, that's pretty cool. So it turns out we have a fairly present segment of our customer base that have insulin dependent type two diabetes. And so again, first look under the hood, we sort of sat there and we were curious, and we said, well, we have some people who are updating software updating to Control IQ who report that they have type two diabetes, I wonder if they're experiencing things differently than folks with Type One Diabetes. And it turns out that both people with type one and type two diabetes are experiencing significant improvements in time and range with use of Control IQ. So the second publication that we presented at ADA was looking at glycine outcomes type one versus type two. Now you've heard me say that folks with type one in our analyses experienced a nine or 10% increase in time and range as a result of their software update. And for folks with type two, that was a 6% increase in time and range. But here's the really cool part, the analysis that we did for looking at the difference between type one and type two, we required a minimum of 14 days of use leading up to the software update, and then 14 days of use after the software update, which is half the amount of time from our first analyses. And so what that means is by seeing that our folks with type one got to a 9% improvement in time arrange, it means that those improvements are happening really quickly, right after the software update.   Stacey Simms  16:46 That's really interesting. I want a little dig a little deeper into some of these studies. But I also want to kind of do some bullet points here. So let's talk about Control IQ okayed for young children, because I just happened. Yeah, can you speak to what those studies found? Was there anything different or anything parents of children down to the age of six now should be thinking about anything different?   Steph Habif  17:06 I don't really think so. We recently, just a couple days ago, got our FDA clearance for the pediatric indication for Control IQ for children's six year old Jr. Before then it was previously approved for ages 14 and older. We know investigators have been doing research and even younger populations. But right now we're only approved down to age six. And what the clinical trial that focused on ages six to 13 using Control IQ saw was the sensor timing range increase to 67% from 53%. compared to those in the control group, and overnight children using Control IQ technology in the same study state and range an average of 80% of the time, those glycaemic outcomes match what we're seeing in the real world with a slightly older group, and so it's looking very consistent. So far across the board,   Stacey Simms  18:02 one of the things I wanted to ask you about these studies and in Tandem isn't the only one who does this. It looks to me like a lot of the automated studies that I'm reading from Insulet, Medtronic and some of the other companies, was that 68% in range number that you mentioned, like the people who started when from 68 to 78, which is fantastic. But we know that so many people with diabetes have like 30%, time in range, right? They need this technology so badly. And I'm wondering, can you just speak to that in terms of I don't know why the studies, and I was glad to hear the kids study was 53% to 67%. That seems a little bit more realistic to me. I mean, God forbid you study teens. What, you know why? Why do you? Why do most of these studies take people who frankly, have relatively decent control, right, we're talking about the whole sphere of diabetes, that just people who have great technology, I would think you'd want somebody who's got an A1C of 10 and you can say, look, we knocked them down to six.   Steph Habif  18:55 That is a great question and you are speaking my language. I'm so thrilled To hear you ask that question. That was actually one of the biggest themes to emerge from this year's ADA. And it certainly isn't a new theme, but it was a very prominent theme this year. The call for more diversity in research studies diversity, whether it has to do with baseline A1C or baseline time and range where somebody lives. There was a really exciting study presented at the ADA by researchers in New York who looked at inner city urban teenagers onboarding to the T slim x two with Basal IQ. And that was very cool to see. And so you're absolutely right. It is on us as researchers, as scientists, as clinicians to figure out how to be more inclusive in this type of research. And that's certainly one of our goals here at Tandem.   Stacey Simms  19:49 It's interesting because I thought you were going to say, I don't know I thought it was going to be more on the medical side of it. So in other words, is it more of a question and I'm pardon my ignorance here because I wasn't really even sure what I was. Asking there. Is it just harder to find people to be in these studies? Or is it the study criteria that excludes people?   Steph Habif  20:07 So at Tandem, we try to have the most inclusive criteria that we possibly can for this year's ADA, again, because we had such a short amount of time, and we really only could take quote, unquote, the first look under the hood, we had to work with the data that was available. When you consider early adopters of any technology really, but certainly early adopters of Control IQ technology, like you said, a lot of those folks were already doing pretty well, especially because most of them were on T slim x two with basal IQ leading up to their Control IQ technology update. It's a loaded question, you know, why isn't there more diversity in this type of research? And there's no one simple answer to that question. I think it's a shared responsibility across many communities to figure out how to make it easier for them. Different types of people to be included in this research. So I think the medical community, the research community, the scientific community and the diabetes community sort of at large, we just need to be better about being more inclusive.   Stacey Simms  21:13 Well, and I think it's very easy. Once you set the parameter that you looked at people who are early adopters, we know who those early adopters were there us, there are people who listen to podcasts, there are people who are super educated, they went for the portal before the email came to them. So it's a it's a very self selected group of highly educated people. So I'm not being critical. I get it. It's just Gosh, like I said, I'd love to see what happens when you start people who have a very high A1C and don't have a lot of time and don't have a lot of perhaps access to get a technology like this and see what it can do. Because, you know, I'm such a cheerleader. Listen, my bias is showing, but my son has always been in very good health with diabetes. We've been very lucky. You probably know we don't share numbers, but we're on track to have probably his lowest A1C ever and he has never done less work. It's amazing. So I just hope everybody gets a technology like this.   Steph Habif  22:05 Yeah, you know, the psychologist and behavioral scientist in me is just thrilled to hear you say that. I mean, for somebody like me who has studied social science her entire career and has also worked in health technology and medical technology, my entire career, I like to say that my purpose professionally is to advocate for the humans using the machines. And so I want the science to be able to tell the most insightful stories, whether powerful stories like one you're experiencing with Benny, where he's having to do less and less work but experience better and better outcomes, or whether it has to do with, you know, somehow shining a light on underserved populations who could be the greatest beneficiaries of this type of technology, and how can we make that happen? So all of that, to me is very exciting.   Stacey Simms  22:56 It's gonna be fascinating for somebody with your background to work in this field, where the mental side of diabetes is just as important. The Human Factors on pumps. It's, we could talk all day.   Steph Habif  23:05 Absolutely, yeah. So the easiest way to think about it for in terms of what I do and my team's do here at Tandem is, as you know, the FDA requires very rigorous Human Factors testing in order to submit and receive clearance on a medical device. And so my teams do all of the usability and Human Factors testing prior to our FDA submissions. And then other parts of my teams are the psychologists and the social scientists responsible for doing all the work to understand how the machines are functioning and the everyday lives of everyday users. I feel very blessed to be able to do that for work.   Stacey Simms  23:39 So moving to, you know, heaven forbid, we left to let you rest on your laurels at all moving ahead to what may be next. We know that COVID-19 has delayed a lot of things, you know, in all medical fields, but can we ask about the T sport and the Tandem mobile app? Can you talk about where those are right now?   Steph Habif  23:57 Of course you can ask. So a lot of you know We have a new insulin pump system that we're working to bring to market next year, we typically refer to it as the T sport. That's our internal project name for it. That's what we've kind of affectionately been calling it while it's been in development. It's about half the size of the T slim x two. It's being designed to be controlled either entirely by a mobile app or by an independent controller. And you're right due to the current COVID-19 environment. We have had some delays in some of our human factors testing. Because the data is required for our regulatory filings. The target submission timing for the tee sport will be pushed out until protective government restrictions are lifted. And because I am the person that oversees our human factors team, let me just say that trying to plan and carry out to actors testing during a pandemic is one of the most unique challenges of my career. And I know for anybody out there who's attempted to plan anything right now it's been particularly difficult.   Unknown Speaker  25:04 Before we go on, do you believe the Tsport will have a different name when it launches?   Unknown Speaker  25:08 Oh,   Stacey Simms  25:10 I won't hold you to it. It's just the first time I've heard somebody say that. Like with Omnipod, you know, they said, Oh is Omnipod horizon? And they said, No, it's Omnipod five. Yeah. Sometimes we sometimes we find ourselves getting ahead, right. We're ahead of marketing. We're ahead of labeling we we follow these projects. So early that we kind of assigned we as a community assign names to things that don't even have a name yet, right? Steph Habif Yeah, I am not a betting woman. And so I would be afraid to put money down on what t sport is officially going to be called when it gets commercialized. Stacey Simms Alright, fair enough. Fair enough. We'll just know that that's the working title. And then the mobile app. I know there's some people beta testing the phone app, which is more of a observant app, you look at things you can't do anything really yet. Is that the same timeline as the tee sport, whatever that timeline turns out to be?   Steph Habif  25:58 No, the mobile app is happening on In a different timeline. So we're developing a mobile app platform that is the foundation of our digital health strategy. The first generation of the app had a beta launch in the first quarter of 2020. And it will be rolled out more broadly in the upcoming weeks. So the first generation of the app will include remote data uploads so that patients can send their hcps important pump data without an office visit. We know that right now we've kind of been forced into this telehealth world. So that's going to be a really critical part of the user experience. And future iterations of the app will include remote bolus capability due to COVID. For sure. We've had some delays in human factors testing on the remote bolus features. And again, because data is required for our regulatory filings, we have to work with that the best we possibly can.   Stacey Simms  26:48 I'm so excited about that. I mean, obviously, the idea of bolusing from the phone seemed like the holy grail for a long time, but that is exactly what you're saying. right that the idea here is that you would take out your phone, bolus using pump, you'd be able to control it from your phone.   That's right. I give you the impression. I want to talk to you much more about that.   Steph Habif  27:09 You know, it's, I will say, being a scientist who's in charge of doing all of the research makes me an interesting candidate for a podcast interview.   Stacey Simms  27:20 All right. Well, I have so here's a question for you. And again, no answers a fair answer. I'm curious. When you you start doing things like that. The remote monitoring capability of the Dexcom , obviously, has been very, very popular. I'm curious if I wouldn't expect to bolus my son from my phone. Right? You wouldn't expect a caregiver to be able to do something like that. But what a caregiver be able to see more about the pump? Will there be more information available to people who want to, let's say follow, I don't know what kind of language we'll be using, like the pump battery, the insulin onboard, all of that kind of stuff. Will that be   Steph Habif  27:54 available? Yeah. So that's a great question. So follow capabilities through a mobile app. is certainly a part of our product roadmap, there are plans underway for that. I can't speak to when that would come to the market specifically, but it is being worked on.   Stacey Simms  28:11 Okay. And one more thing if you can't answer this is fine too. Would it be possible I'm just thinking out loud when my son was was younger and we did do everything for him? If like I could use you could designate like, this is the bolus phone, and it wouldn't necessarily be the phone that's with the kid.   Steph Habif  28:25 Great question. You know, cybersecurity is such a critical consideration in this land of remote anything. I can't tell you one way or the other, whether or not you as the parent would be able to use your smartphone to bolus you know from your son's pump. We'll have to wait and see what the FDA decides in the land of you know, security and safety and cybersecurity. For sure. Right now we're focusing on doing the necessary Human Factors testing for enabling the pump wearer to be able to use his or her smartphone   Stacey Simms  29:00 I'm trying to keep track of the timeline here. So forgive me for clinical trials underway for the T sport yet,   Steph Habif  29:06 right. So for the T sport project, we are not yet doing active clinical trials. But as many of you know, being a medical device company, we have a robust r&d department, and our engineers are experimenting on a regular basis.   Stacey Simms  29:22 Ooh, sounds intriguing. You should do all of your studies in Charlotte, North Carolina, you should include 15 year old boys. Yeah, let's move on. Do you know this isn't really your department, a bunch of my listeners had questions about insurance. And a lot of insurers were making noise a few years ago about only going with one pump company. And of course, the big one was United Health and Medtronic does tend to make any progress in that, you know, that deal. Right? So like   Steph Habif  29:53 what you said is true. It's not my department. So we don't provide individual payer updates, but we We believe having continued positive data on our technology, like what we presented at the ADA helps with all of our payer discussions.   Stacey Simms  30:08 So I would say to paraphrase that Tandem is not going to give up on working with as many insurance companies as possible.   Steph Habif  30:14 That is correct. We believe in doing whatever we can to create access for as many people in the world as possible.   Stacey Simms  30:21 another bit of news that came out right around ADA was FDA approval of Libre 2 and you all have had an agreement already with Abbott. I don't I don't know the parameters of the agreement. I don't think there's a lot of public the timeline or how it will work. Can you speak to anything about that about how sometime in the future I suppose the Libre will work with a Tandem pump?   Steph Habif  30:42 Yes, so Abbott and Tandem share a common goal to provide people with new ways to manage their diabetes that can integrate easily into their daily lives. The interoperability landscape is is very promising in Tandem is working with Abbott on an agreement to integrate a future generation of their glucose sensing technology with our insulin pumps. We haven't announced a timeline for the completion of the agreement, but we're working on it.   Stacey Simms  31:08 so dumb question because I always get confused with interoperability. Would this be a situation where I flip a switch on my pump and one week, I could use a Dexcom  sensor and the next week, I could use a Libra sensor.   Steph Habif  31:17 I think for some people, that is what the vision is, like, I think we're all playing an active role right now in forming what this interoperable landscape could be. But conceptually, the idea is you could mix and match your technologies and they would be able to speak to one another. Now, that requires business agreements between the companies as well. So don't forget that part because that's an important part.   Stacey Simms  31:42 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, let's keep dreaming. Let's forget. So what are you studying? Now? Obviously, this isn't the end of the studies on Control IQ or Tandem products. Can you give us a glimpse into what what you're looking at in the next couple of months?   Steph Habif  31:55 Yeah, sure. Well, as you know, we currently offer the TCM x two with basal IQ technology and Control IQ technology. We had some pretty exciting research debut at the ADA on basal IQ in that we followed folks who on boarded to basal IQ during their first six months on basal IQ. And that was what we call a prospective study, meaning we were able to follow people in real time over the course of several months to see how it was going for them. The research we presented at ADA related to that specifically focused on self reported severe hypoglycemia episodes, and we were thrilled to tell the world that basal IQ is doing a phenomenal job of decreasing adverse events related to severe hypoglycemia. So basically, like he's seemingly doing a very good job at keeping users safe. And you know, safety is always at the top of our priority list. So as we continue to see more people take on Control IQ technology if they choose to do that. We will Do these long term studies where we follow people if they opt in and want us to, we'll follow them while they onboard to and get to know and continue to use Control IQ technology so that we can learn from them. Again, not just the glycemic outcomes, things like time and range and hypoglycemia, but sleep quality, or other things like is it a hassle to use? Is it making your life better? One of the things that I'll never forget is a couple months after phase like q hit the market, I had the chance to briefly talk with a father who had a 16 year old daughter, and she had been on basal IQ for about six weeks. And he looked at me and he said, this is the most under promised, over delivered diabetes technology Our family has ever experienced. And I said wow, tell me more about that. And he said, We're finally sleeping. You know, we can sleep through the night. And you know, sleep is a precursor to everything for everybody. So we're going to be doing a lot more research on the sleep front to see how we can be better continue to improve sleep quality for people with diabetes. That's a very big topic of interest for us.   Stacey Simms  34:19 I'm curious to if you're looking at how people on board and adjust to Control IQ, because most people and again, we're biased because we think we're very well educated, right? When we were in Facebook groups, we talked to each other. Most people kind of went through the training, talk to their endo and then did all the troubleshooting themselves over the first two to three weeks. We're experiencing lows we didn't experience before so we decreased bezel or we increased ISF or whatever, whenever people had to adjust. Are you following like common practices to find out how to better teach? Okay, I'm sorry, we are   Steph Habif  34:51 we are and in fact, next week we're putting on a couple of webinars specifically for healthcare providers first because it's We've been hearing from them even before we launched into market when we started training healthcare providers on the control acute technology system. We have some best practices now to share now that it's been out there for a couple of months. And we've been able to connect some dots. We'll be putting on several webinars next week for health care providers, where we'll be talking about these best practices and tips and tricks. And we know that not just health care providers, but users and their family members want to be able to ask these questions, too. So I think Molly told me that maybe she'll be getting together with you again, Stacy for a future podcast.   Stacey Simms  35:36 Yes. So I'm going to be asking her all of these questions. As the webinar we can kind of see what the what the research shows people with right we're gonna be doing another episode in the near future about best practices. That's great.   Steph Habif  35:46 Yes. And so Molly's just such a great person to talk with about that. But for sure, I'll send you the information on the webinars next week. If you want to chime in and watch they'll be recorded as well. And we are starting to roll out all of that message. Now,   Stacey Simms  36:00 oh my gosh, that's wonderful. Because I gotta tell you, we laughed. We got ours so early, like I said, who waited for the email? Right? We just logged into the portal that my son's endocrinologist said, Hey, let me know what you've learned. Let me know how you adjust.   Steph Habif  36:15 Yeah, that's true. That's true for my family members as well. So one of my niece's has type one, and she's now I think, gosh, almost 12 that blows my mind 11 or 12. I can't believe it. And her dad reminds me on a regular basis that she teaches him, you know, about how to use the pump, and how to use the technology. And I've heard that from other families as well, like, well, we went to our endo appointment, and I'll say, How was it? Well, we taught her a lot, you know, we were able to teach her a lot.   Stacey Simms  36:47 It's so funny. Well, it's also new. It's it's amazing to realize that we're all kind of doing this together.   Steph Habif  36:52 The energy and enthusiasm for good that is in the diabetes community is so special and so unique.   And so I feel very lucky to be a part of it and to play some small role in trying to make it better for everybody.   Stacey Simms  37:07 I can't thank you enough for jumping on. As I said, I'm kind of a fan. So I don't think this was an unbiased interview. But your information is fantastic. And I thank you so much for jumping on and sharing some of it with us. Thank you so much stuff.   Steph Habif  37:19 Absolutely. And I look forward to continuing to listen to hear how other people you know, share their experiences and tell Benny to keep us informed.   Unknown Speaker  37:30 No doubt   Unknown Speaker  37:36 you're listening to diabetes connections with Stacey Simms.   Stacey Simms  37:42 More information at Diabetes connections.com. The episode homepage always has the transcript and other links that you may need. And I will link up our last episode with Tandem there as well which was all about the launch of Control IQ. And as Steph mentioned, we're going to be talking to Molly Malloy and Others from Tandem. I'm in discussions with them this they've already agreed. It's just a question of scheduling, about getting someone to talk about best practices and other questions. You had so many questions for Tandem, that are more mechanical about how Control IQ works, that we want to do a second interview and really dig into the nitty gritty right, how do I know whether I need to adjust Bazell? How do I know whether it's the carb ratio issue and a bunch of questions of what you'd like to see in the next iteration of Control IQ. So that is coming. Thank you for your patience. But it's always interesting, right to get a high level view of what's going on in these companies, and to try to look at the timeline as best we can. So that was really interesting that the reminders Steph gave me about how we do kind of get ahead of the curve around here, you know, not just on this podcast, but those of us who are engaged enough to be in Facebook groups and be on conference calls and listen to the investor calls these companies make and feel like we are familiar with the language and the labeling before it's even submitted to the FDA. So I'm in interested to see if the name of the T sport does change. Frankly, I really like it. But hey, that's I'm not in their marketing department. So we'll see. Okay, tell me something good coming up in just a moment. But first, do you know about Dexcom  clarity, it is their diabetes management software. And for a long time, I really thought it was just something our endo used, right? It was something we went there and he looked at it, but you can use it on the desktop or as an app on your phone. And it is an easy way to keep track of the big picture. I check it about once a week. Well, to be honest with you, I check it more now ever since we flipped over to Control IQ. I really like to look at it because and I noticed a psychological, right because it gets better and better. But it really does help me and Benny dial back and sees longer term trends. And it does help me not overreact to what happened for just one day, or even just one hour. The overlay reports help context to Benny's glucose levels and patterns. And then you can share the reports with your care team which makes appointments a lot more productive and it was essential for a remote appointment that we have Back in March, it was amazing. managing diabetes is not easy, but I feel like we have one of the very best CGM systems working for us Find out more at Diabetes connections.com and click on the Dexcom  logo.   Tell me something good this week all about diabetes scholars, we talked about this, I try to let you know when it opens up. This is something that comes from Beyond Type 1 and they give more than 50 scholarships to students living with Type One Diabetes. So it's a combined $250,000. And these are for students who are in the high school class of 2020. entering their first year of college. This was a record number of scholarships for the organization. So a little bit about the kids 54 outstanding students representing 26 different states. They are advocates, student athletes, scientists, writers, actors, mathematicians, and leaders. Each of them of course lives with Type One, two beedis there is a list of the diabetes scholars class of 2020 that I will link up so you can peruse and see all these fantastic students who aren't going to change the world as they head off to college at a very uncertain time. Oh my goodness. And these are significant scholarships, they range from $1,000 for individuals to $5,000. If you have a student who is in high school, and you want to check this out, I will also link up how to enter they do not open again until January. And I should mention that diabetes scholars was an independent organization for a long time. But when it kind of seemed like it for I don't know the reasons behind it, I hope I'm not privy to the inside information. But a couple of years ago, it seemed like they were going to go under and beyond type one scooped him up and put them under their umbrella. And now they are part of the big beyond type one family. And that's one of the really interesting things not to get off the subject here about beyond type one. You know, when they first started, a bunch of us who've been around for a while, kind of thought, Well, what is this fancy new social media feed going to do? Right? What is there Legacy going to be what kind of changes are they're going to make? And while I think that they have still differentiated themselves by appealing, perhaps more to young adults, and focusing a lot, I mean, their social media is amazing. They've also now really made a name for themselves by being an umbrella organization for smaller diabetes groups that it's really hard to survive with a low budget when you try to go yourself safe sitting as part of them. I think slipstream now is part of them. Lots and lots of be on type run lots of little organizations that make a big difference, but needed their help so I guess that's a Tell me something good as well for beyond type one. If you haven't Tell me something good story. I'm in the process of gathering more I've been putting up the posts in the Facebook group and elsewhere. If you have some good news, I want to share it just let me know you can also email me Stacey at Diabetes connections.com and tell me something good. I mentioned at the top of the show that we are going to be marking 13 years with an insult pump in July, really just late next week, July 4. Yeah, we were geniuses and decided to start it over Independence Day weekend, when we were not even at home. That's a story for another time that I have told that I tell in the book too. But we are also next week headed to the endocrinologist for the first time since January, we did not get an A1C when I had a telehealth appointment for Benny in March. So I'm really interested to see I mean, I know the drill from Dexcom . And while I don't share numbers, I think we are going to have one of if not the lowest A1C’s Benny's ever had thank you to Control IQ. But there's always more to talk about when we see the end, other than just the numbers. So I will keep you posted. If there's anything that Benny wants me to share, or that we want to talk about, but I'm really looking forward to that appointment just because Gosh, we've never gone six months without seeing our endocrinologist and while I know a lot of people think it's a pain to go every three months i mean i think it's a pain to but I'd like checking in I love Dr. v. I always learned something we always ask about Questions, even though he except it was asks me questions now, which is really funny and I do enjoy. I think that when you have a kid who changes as much as my kid has over the years, just physically, you know, and everything else, it's really important, at least for me to have that kind of touchstone, so I am really looking forward to it. And I think Benny's grown an inch. He thinks he hasn't grown at all. Anyone. Let me measure him. I mean, how ridiculous so we'll get a bite, which is what I'm looking forward to as well. Okay, we have so many great episodes on tap. I have all this technology stuff. I have some personal stories that I've been holding, always a mix around here about the technology, the news, the great stories from our community camp. Oh my gosh. So there's lots coming up. It's just a question of what comes next. If there's any breaking news, we'll do our very best, but please join Diabetes Connections, the group on Facebook, that is the best way to stay up to date as to what's coming and I often ask you all questions as well, which helps me figure out what episodes are really important to you. Thank you to my editor John Bukenas from audio editing solution. And as always, thank you for listening. I'm Stacey Simms. I'll see you back here next week until then be kind to yourself.   Unknown Speaker  45:12 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Simms media. All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Christa Gurka on the show to discuss marketing. An orthopedic physical therapist specializing in Pilates-based fitness, rehabilitation, injury prevention and weight loss, Christa Gurka’s reputation speaks for itself. With two decades of experience training those of all ages and fitness levels, the founder/owner of Miami’s Pilates in the Grove, which serves the Coconut Grove and South Miami communities, believes in offering her clients personal attention with expert and well-rounded instruction.   In this episode, we discuss: -Why you should design an ideal client avatar -How a small marketing budget can make a big impact -Crafting the perfect message to attract your ideal client -The importance of continual trial and error of your message -And so much more!   Resources: Christa Gurka Instagram Christa Gurka Facebook Pilates in the Grove Christa Gurka Website FREE resources     A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode! Learn more about the Redoc Patient Portal here.   For more information on Christa: An orthopedic physical therapist specializing in Pilates-based fitness, rehabilitation, injury prevention and weight loss, Christa Gurka’s reputation speaks for itself. With two decades of experience training those of all ages and fitness levels, the founder/owner of Miami’s Pilates in the Grove, which serves the Coconut Grove and South Miami communities, believes in offering her clients personal attention with expert and well-rounded instruction.   Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy (00:01): Hi Christa, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on. So today we're going to be talking about three strategies for marketing for cash based practices. And the good thing about all of these strategies is they don't cost a lot of money, right? And that's important when you're starting a business. You know, we don't want to have to take out a bunch of loans, we don't want to have to spend a lot of our own money. We want to try and start up as lean as we can. And so I'm going to throw it over to you to kick it off with. What is your first strategy for marketing for cash based practices? Christa Gurka (00:43): Perfect. So one of the reasons I just want to start with saying why I'm a little passionate about this marketing thing is because myself included when I first started, I really kind of, I felt like I started backwards almost like from the ends. And I think it's really so helpful for people to learn to start kind of from the beginning. Right? So my very first strategy that I think is really, really important is to have a real good idea of who your ideal customer or who your target audience is. And I get often some pushback from people saying, well, everybody can use my services. Of course everyone can use physical therapy. Absolutely. And that doesn't mean you have to single anybody out. But you know, I think Marie Forleo said it or maybe somebody said it to her, but when you speak to everyone, you really, you speak to no one and so slew thing, your who, your ideal customer is, how they feel, how they think. Christa Gurka (01:45): It's very, very beneficial. So if you want, I can kind of go through like a few questions that I use to kind of narrow down who that person is. So one of the things to know when we go through our ideal customer, we actually give this person a name, an age, a gender demographic, married, not married, retired, not retired, education level, median income. And when we do anything in our business now, so we are ideal customer, her name is Georgia. And so we say every time we have a meeting we say, well what will Georgia think about this? Well Georgia like this, so we're Georgia not like this. So that's the very first thing. And we refer to that person as their name. And then you want to go through like what are their biggest fears about whatever problem they're looking to solve. Christa Gurka (02:40): People buy based on emotion. And so get into the underlying source of that emotion is really, it can be very powerful. So what are their fears? What do they value? Right? Cause when it comes to money, people paying for those, it's not always a dollar amount. It's more in line with what do they value? And if you can show these clients that you serve, offered them a value, the money, the dollar amount kind of becomes obsolete. So things like that. What could happen, what would be the best case scenario if this problem were solved for them? What would be the worst case scenario of this problem were never solved. So in terms of physical therapy, let's say generalize orthopedics, right? Back pain. 80 million Americans suffer from back pain. Yeah. So an easy one to start with, an easy one to start with, right? Christa Gurka (03:35): So let's think of, you know, back pain, it's so general, right? But if you can say, what is the worst thing that can happen because of this back pain, right? So maybe the worst thing that could happen is this person loses days at work because they have such bad back pain, they can't sit at their desk or maybe they have such bad back pain that there performance drops and so that cause they can't concentrate. And so now maybe they lose their job or they get emoted because their back pain. So the worst case scenario is maybe they're not, they ended up losing their job because of back pain. So you kind of take it all the way back. And then if you could speak to them about how would it feel if we were able to give you the opportunity to sit eight hours at a desk and not think of your back pain one time and what would that mean to you? So really kind of under covering a lot, a lot, a lot about who your ideal customer is. It's my number one strategy. Karen Litzy (04:39): And I also find that it's a great exercise in empathy. So for those that maybe don't have that real innate sense of empathy, it's a way for you to step into their shoes. And I always think of it as a what are their possible catastrophizations? So if we put it in the terms that the PT will understand, like when I did this number of years ago, I sort of catastrophized as this person. What would happen if this pain didn't go away? I wouldn't be able to take care of my children. I wouldn't be able to go to work. It would affect my marriage. My marriage would break up, I would be a single mom. I would, you know, so you can really project out really, really far and then reel it back in, like you said, and say, well, what would happen if they did work with you? What is the best case scenario on that? So yeah, I just sort of catastrophized out like super, super far and it's really helpful because when that person who is your ideal client then comes to you and you're doing their initial evaluation, you can ask them these questions. Christa Gurka (05:51): Yeah. Yeah. It's very powerful. And I love how you brought in, like you empathize with them and you know, and by the way, a lot of our clients do catastrophize, right? And we have to reel them, we have to reel them back in. So that was a really great point. I also think it can be sometimes on the flip side where somebody maybe comes in and their goal is very benign. Maybe it's, I really want to be physically fit. I want to look good. Right? So you kind of think, well, what's the catastrophe if that doesn't happen? But maybe, maybe they're in a relationship where they're a partner. Aesthetics is a big part of that. And maybe they feel insecure and they feel if they don't present well to their partner, their partnership may dissolve whatever the case may be. So now you're getting to an underlying, it really is more emotional than physical, right? So now you're being able to empathize with them in that way and speak to them in those terms, give them positive things that maybe they don't even realize they need. Karen Litzy (06:53): Exactly. And then it also seems like once you're in those shoes or walking in their shoes, in their footsteps, however you want to put it, that’s when that person does come to you, you can have a conversation with them that's maybe not so much centered around back pain, but that’s centered around their life. And that's when people make that connection with you. Right? So when we're talking to patients who are not sure that they want to start physical therapy, if we kind of get them, they're much more likely to come and see us. So it's not about the back pain, it's not about the knee pain. It's about how are we going to make a difference in their life. And if we can make that, like harking back to what you said earlier, it's an emotional experience and people tend to buy things based on emotions and their gut feelings and how they feel. So if we can tap into that in a really authentic way, then talk about a great marketing strategy. Christa Gurka (07:58): Excellent. Exactly. Karen Litzy (08:00): And then, okay, so we've got our ideal customer, client avatar. Now what do we do? Christa Gurka (08:10): Great. Now what? So you've got your ideal customer, right? And so by the way, people also sometimes think like, well, I don't want to pigeonhole myself into this, right? But by the way, your ideal customer may change. It's okay first of all to change. And he doesn't have more than one. You can have more than one. Certainly we have more than one in our business. And by the way, you may start out thinking about one ideal customer, but the people that keep coming back, maybe somebody else and you're like, Oh, obviously, maybe I have to rethink this. Right? And again, it doesn't mean that you can't serve someone else. It just means that when you're thinking about marketing and stuff, you're going to go after everything should funnel into one specific thing. So then the next step in the marketing is, okay, so where do these people live? Christa Gurka (08:59): And I don't mean live like literally what neighborhood do they live in? Where do they live in terms of getting their news information? Where do they live in terms of being on social media? Where do they live in terms of, you know, what do they value as far as like personal or professional life? So one thing I see is, you know, people you know are like, well, I'm gonna put an ad in the newspaper, that's great. But if you live in an area where nobody reads the newspaper, then you're putting your money somewhere that you're not going to be seen. Or maybe the flip side is, well, I'm going to do a lot of stuff on Instagram. Well, if you were, your clientele is over 65 studies show that most people over 65 are not on Instagram. That doesn't mean they're nobody is, it just means, you know, or vice versa. Christa Gurka (09:50): If your client is 25, they're probably not on Facebook anymore, right? So, then again you can be, this is why it won't cost you a lot because you can narrow down where you are going to spend your money, right? Also, if you're running Facebook ads, which will then go on Instagram you can narrow down in your audience when you build out your audience to be very, very, very specific based on are you a brick and mortar establishment? So are you trying to get people to come in to your place? Right? So you want to say, well, if people are not, if you know that your ideal customer's not convenience as important and they're not going to travel more than five miles, you shouldn't market to people that live or work outside of a five mile radius from your studio. Right? So that's important to know as well as also maybe your customer gets their information from friends or relatives, you know, or like someone said, you know, you need to go see Karen, she's been really great for me and that's how they get to you. Christa Gurka (11:00): So how can you then get in front of your client's friends, right? Maybe you could do an open house, invite a friend, bring them in. Let's do one-on-one, you know, just kind of like a talk, right? Maybe you could bring them in if, say your ideal customer, let's say your ideal customer is in their sixties, what are some things that people in that age group are going through? Maybe you can have a talk about that specific thing. Not necessarily a therapy, but now you get everyone to kind of come to you. It's not even about what you actually do cause you can need them based on where they are. And most people, by the way, they say there's the numbers range, but usually they have to see you about seven times or have seven points of contact with you before they're comfortable buying from you. So these are just way to get people to know, like, and trust you and then they'll buy from you. So that's strategy number two. Once you know really who your customer is and they could take a couple years to really start to peel back all the onion of that, then the next thing is be where they are, be in front of where they are. Karen Litzy (12:13): Yes, absolutely. And, I love that you mentioned the different types of social media and who's on where, because like you said, this is something that isn't going to break the bank because you have narrowed down exactly where you want to spend your money. Right? So we're taking who that ideal person is, where finding out where they like to hang out, what they read, who they're with, all that kind of stuff. So that when you build out a marketing campaign for your business, you kind of know who and where to target. Christa Gurka (12:49): Right? Exactly. Yes. And even so, even with Facebook, yeah. When you build out your audience, right? So you can have a variety of audiences. You can create lookalike audience, which I'm sure is like a whole podcast onto itself, but you can also target people that like certain brands. So when I do my ideal customer, I'm like, well what brand do they resonate with? In other words. So I would say that our brand is a little more towards Athletica versus like Lulu lemon. And that's not to say one is better than the other. It just means that's who my generally customer is. And why, what do they value? They value that customer service. You get, you know, Athletica has like a, you can take anything back all the time, right? So when you build out a Facebook ad, you can also target, that's right. They've bought from Athletica online. Right. So now you're reaching people. So you kind of near just keep narrowing it, narrowing it, narrowing it down, which can be, you know, other interests is your client. Do you do pelvic health? So obviously women, although men do it right, if moms can you target people that like mom influencers on Facebook or on the internet. So these are all just ways that the more you know about them, then you can use that in your marketing strategies afterwards. Karen Litzy (14:15): Absolutely. Fabulous. Okay. So know who the person is, know where they're hanging out. What's number three? Christa Gurka (14:23): Okay. So number three to me is the most important, the most, most important. And that really is messaging. So when you're working with your ideal, when you're working through that ideal customer you know, workbook getting to them, to you for them to use their own language for you. So I see this very, very commonly, and I am sure you can attest to it too. When physical therapists, we love what we do. We are passionate about movement and anatomy and biomechanics but you know what, the general population has no idea what we're talking about. None. Zero. Yeah. And so oftentimes I feel like, and by the way, I'm not saying I did this for a long time too. I think that we're trying sometimes to get other practitioners to say, Oh, that's a really good therapist. So we're talking about pain science and biotech integrity and fascial planes and the general population. Christa Gurka (15:32): The end consumers, like I have no idea what you're talking about. So you need to speak to them at their level based on what their problem is. And kind of like how we spoke about before. It's not always the back pain, it's what the back pain is keeping them from doing. Right. it's not always, let's take pelvic health for example. Right? A lot of pelvic health issues or not necessarily painful. Okay. So say you have moms, this is super, super common stress incontinence. They leak, they leak when they jump and they go to CrossFit and they're embarrassed to start with a jump rope because they, it's not, why? Why do women go 16 years after childbirth? Because you know what? It's not really painful. So they don't consider it a problem. Like physical therapy is not going to help me with it. So, but if you say to them, Hey, that might be common, but that's not normal, and guess what? Christa Gurka (16:25): There's a solution to that, you know? That is something that will resonate with them. Do you like things like, do you feel, do you worry when you're out at a restaurant as it gets later and later that the line at the bathroom is going to be too long and you stop drinking because you're afraid to wait in line for the bathroom? Right. So some women will be like, Oh yeah, I totally do that. Right? Are you afraid to chaperone your child's field trip? Because the bus ride is going to be three hours and you don't think you can hold it three hours on the bus without a bathroom. That's terrible for a mom. She can't chaperone her kids field trip because she's embarrassed that she might have to go to the bathroom. So using their language. So I like to send out surveys very frequently. Christa Gurka (17:09): Google doc is super easy. Survey monkey and ask them things like, what are your fears about whatever it is you're trying to sell. Right. what are your fears about exercise? What are your fears about back pain? How does it really make you feel? Okay. what are your, like maybe even if you could pay and if money was not an issue and you could pay anything, what would that look like for you? How would that make you feel and starting to, then you start to use that language. We've all seen marketing campaigns where you're like, yes, exactly. Totally. That's how you need to get into them. Right? And so maybe maybe as a physical therapist, it's tough for us because we're like, well, no, their hamstrings are not tight. It's not hamstring tightness. It's neural tension and it's the brain and the nervous system, but they don't, they don't understand. Christa Gurka (18:06): So you got to get them in. What they feel is that they have hamstring tightness. So you got to tell them that you can fix their hamstring tightness. And then little by little you explained to them that it's neural tension, right? But if you start off with neural tension, they're going to go somewhere else. And so I kind of like, I use this example a lot if you, cause I think we can all relate to this. We're on tech right now, right? Okay. So if you have, I have a Mac, I have an Apple. If I go to the Apple store, cause my computer crashes or my phone won't turn on and I go talk to what are they, what are the genius bar, the genius bar. And the guy's like, you know, so what I see here is the motherboard has this month and this software program, you only have so many gigabytes. Christa Gurka (18:50): I'm like, can you fix my computer? That's all I want to know. And if he says yes, I'm like, I don't care how you do it. So whether you use taping or I use myofascial release or somebody uses Pilates or somebody uses craniosacral therapy, it doesn't matter to them. So the end consumer, they just want to know that you can solve their problem. People have problems and they want to know that you have the answer to solve their problem. And that's it. So messaging is really, I think, crucial. It's the crucial point of the puzzle. Karen Litzy (19:28): And now let's talk about messaging. Let's dive into this a little bit further. So I think we've all seen different websites of healthcare practitioners, physical therapists and otherwise that kind of make us go like, Karen Litzy (19:43): Oh boy cause it's in cringeworthy in that it comes off as a little too salesy, a little too slick, a little too icky. So how can we compose our messaging to avoid that? Unless maybe that's what their ideal patient wants. I don't know. But yeah, how can we craft our messages that are going to hit those pain points, get that emotion going without being like a salesy, weird gross Christa Gurka (20:18): So the other thing I think that's important to understand is people's buying patterns. And when people say no to you, maybe they're not saying no to you, they're just saying this. It's not a value to me at this time. So one of the phrases, one of the things that I've really restructured, cause I used it, take it very personally, if someone will be like, no, I know and I'd be like, what you mean I could totally help you? And now I'm like, you know what? It's basically I look at it like if I'm at a party or I'm having a dinner party and I serve or Durham and I'm like picking a blanket and be like, no thanks. I'm like, okay, walk away. So I say therapy with Krista. No thank you. No problem. Let me know if I can help you in the future. Christa Gurka (21:04): Right? So the way that I say it is if you just speak honestly to your customer, honestly, to your customers. Nobody can be you at being you. So be your authentic self, whatever that brand is for you. And whether it's your company or you yourself, and let that come through in your messaging. Right? So in other words, like if your messaging is also about mindfulness and positivity and looking past the pain and what is your relationship with your pain or dysfunction that should maybe come through in your messaging that you're more holistic, that you're not going to be a treat them and street them type thing. But maybe if your messaging is, Hey, we're going to treat you and street you and you'll be out of here in 15 minutes, you're going to attract that type of customer. So either one is fine, but I just say really be authentic. Christa Gurka (21:59): And the other thing is, I would say send your website. I don't put a lot, a huge amount of stock in my website to be perfectly honest. I do love my website. I'm a very like, analytical person. So the colors and where everything sits is important. But I don't think as, I'm not a big believer that as much selling goes on your website as a lot of people may think, I think it's a place where yes, people are going to Google, someone gives you a reference at a cocktail party, they're going to Google your website, but they're basically going to look like, does this resonate with me? So what you want to hear is, you know, that tagline at the very beginning, you know, is does that tagline, the first thing that they see, does that resonate with that person? Right. So we use, because we're Pilates and physical therapy, we will, right now our website's a mess because it's got coven. Christa Gurka (22:47): We're close, we're not close. But helping people heal with love, every twist, every turn and every teaser. Teaser is a plot. He's exercise. So we stuck that with love in there because that is part of who we are. We are a community. We care about our clients. So you're not just going to come in here for like two things. We want to help you where you are. So that's, so if someone's like, yeah, that's cheesy for me, then it's okay, they can go down the street. Right. and we don't, I used, by the way, this has come with like 10 years of testing. You just got to test it. You got to test it and you got to see like who does it resonate with? Send it to a bunch of people and ask people for their honest feedback. Give me, you're not going to hurt my feelings. I need to know like, what do you see when you see this? What, how does it make you feel? So ask people their opinions and not physical. Karen Litzy (23:45): Yes. Yes. And you know, I just redid a lot of the messaging on my website and I sent my website from what it was and I'm in a group of female entrepreneurs, none of whom are physical therapists. I sent it to them, they gave me some feedback, I changed a little things. I sent it again, they gave more feedback, I changed some more things and now I feel now they're like, Oh see this sounds more like you. So before what I had in my website is what I thought was me. But then once I really got like had other people take a look at it, they're like, Oh, no this sounds more like you. And yeah, I love that tagline on the front. Like the tagline on the top of my website is world-class physical therapy delivered straight to your door, Christa Gurka (24:28): Which is short and concise and what you do. And it's what I do. Very easy. Perfect people. Oftentimes I see these like tat and they're like, you know, they had their elevator pitch. I'm like, what's your elevator pitch? You know, people talk about, Oh, what's the elevator pitch? I'm like, if you cannot describe what you do and like two sentences or 10 words or less, how do you think other people are gonna if you can't understand it for yourself, how are other people gonna right, right. Like you said, that takes time though. It does. It does take time. I struggled with this for a while, but me always, yes, but I think as physical therapist, one of the reasons we struggle is for a number of reasons. One. If we're business owners, we tend to be overachievers, right? We tend to have weak temp. We're bred from a certain mold. Christa Gurka (25:18): Right? the other thing I think is physical therapist, we're very analytical. We're very left brains, right? We are, I mean I think it's what makes me a really great physical therapist. But then the flip side of that is we're perfectionist. Everything has to be analyzed. And so we get so caught up in like the details of analysis and we went to PT school. So we have to show how smart we are. But being smart also means understanding what your customer's going to understand. And so you kind of have to swivel out of that. So sometimes even in groups when I'm like, when we see people like, Hey, what do you guys think of my website? I'm like, don't ask us, we are not your customer. Go ask your customers like what they think of your website. And so when I was in a group, you know, my coach challenged me to narrow things down as well. And they used to say things like, if you were running through a desert and you like and you were selling water, what would your tagline be like what would you, what would your board say? And you know, people will be like ice cold, dah dah dah. And he was like, just say water. If someone's running through a desert, all they need is water, water will suffice. Water will suffice. Clean water less is more free water. Even less. Yeah. Karen Litzy (26:42): And I remember, this is even years ago, I was doing like a one sheet, like a speaker one sheet. This is a lot off topic but talking about how we need to tailor our message to our ideal audience. So I had, you know Karen, let's see PT and I remember the person was like, does that mean like part time personal trainer? And I was like no physical therapist. Like you need to write that out then because the average person like PT. Okay. Does that mean part time personal? Like what does that even mean? So it just goes down to or sorry, it goes back to kind of what you said of like we have to speak the language of the people who we want to come to see us. Right? And the best way to do that is on our websites is we just have to simplify things and it doesn't mean dumb it down. It just means like simplify. And I'm going to give a plug to a book. It's called simple by Alan Siegel and it's all about how to simplify your language, your graphics, and how everything comes together to create a site that people, number one are attracted to and number two want to hang out at. Christa Gurka (27:53): Right? Exactly. And there's a lot of testing and I'm a big thing like testing. It's just testing, testing, testing. We test our sales page, we test even now with like some of my coaching stuff, working with other female business owners, testing, sometimes going in and testing, switching a graphic, have what you have above the fold. So the fold for those of you that don't know is like when you're on a website, it's you don't have to scroll. So everything is above where you have to scroll. I'll call to action a CTA right at the top. Changing phrases, you know, not using broad language like confidence, like what does confidence actually mean, but maybe making it more specific using language so that that's a really good thing. Helping or like, you know, reading yourself a back pain so that you can live the life you desire and deserve. Christa Gurka (28:57): Right? So changing little, and you can change that by the way, mid campaign, mid launch daily. You could change it if your Facebook ads are so one of the things, if you're, if people are clicking on your ad, but when they're not converting on your sales page, that usually means that either the messaging and your ad is really off and they're, once they get to your sales page, they're not understood. There was a disconnect between what you're offering or your messaging is great, but your sales page sucks. Or vice versa. Maybe nobody's clicking on your ad. Then whatever you're trying to sell them there does not resonate with them, right? So there has to be a connection. And usually when people don't buy, there's either a, with your offer or a problem with your messaging. Christa Gurka (29:49): So test means put it out there, see what kind of feedback you get, and then it's think of it as, okay, what we do in therapy, right? So this, what do we do when we get a patient in, we assess, we treat, and then we reassess, right? So what's going on? Let's try a treatment in here. Let's reassess. Is it better? If it's not better, what do we do? We go back, assess again, and then do another treatment and then assess, right? Reassess. So in marketing it's the same. So let's say you wanted to do, let's say you're working on like a sales page on your website, right? A sales page. I know it sounds salesy, but it's basically your offer, right? If people are getting there, so you see people you can track. By the way, with Google analytics, like people coming to your site, if a lot of people are coming to your site but they're not clicking on the call to action or they're not following through to check out some, there is some disconnect there. Christa Gurka (30:56): So maybe it's the messaging. So then maybe try to change the messaging, tweak the messaging, and then watch the outcome again, maybe people get all the way to the checkout and then abandoned cart. Maybe it means that something they got confused with something at the end. Maybe there's the customer journey wasn't right. They got to the end because they put something in the cart and then maybe your checkout structure is off or something like that. So test it and then just retest until your numbers are like, now we hit it. And by the way, it's taken me. I mean I'm still testing. Hmm. It seems like it's a constant reinvention. Constant, constant. Because the market keeps changing. Especially now. By the way, by the way, right now I don't know why there are. So at the time of this recording, we are in the middle of COVID. So when people come back, your messaging, okay. Is going to have to change, right? So we need to be aware of that. Karen Litzy (31:49): Yes, Absolutely. All right. So as we start to wrap things up here, let's just review those three strategies again. So who is your target market is number one, where are they hanging out? Where are they living? Not physically their address, but you know, where, what are they reading? Where are they hanging out, what are they doing online, what are they doing offline? And then lastly is making sure that your messaging clearly conveys part one and part two. And how you can solve their problem. Awesome. So now if you were to leave the audience with you know, a quick Pearl of wisdom from this conversation, let's say this might be someone who's never even thought about any of this stuff before. What did they do? Christa Gurka (32:40): So in terms of like, never even thought about marketing before or going into brand new, brand new out of PT school are, or brand new, like they want to kind of dive in and start doing their own thing, but they want to do it in a way that's efficient and that doesn't break the bank, right? So I would definitely say, Christa Gurka (33:17): Start with the end in mind. So that's from a great book, right? So so start with the end in mind meaning, but don't start at the end. I think a lot of people confuse that with, they start with the end in mind, but then they go right to the end and they go to marketing, right? So I like to equate everything back to physical therapy, right? So when we learn about developmental patterns, we all know, like we start with rolling and then Quadruped high kneeling, right? So if you take a patient that's injured and has a neuro, you know, and motor control problem and start them in standing off with multiple planes, you've missed a bunch of it, right? So you start marketing without understanding who your ideal customer is and finding out what they think and how they feel. Christa Gurka (34:01): You're going to spend a lot of money and you're not going to know why it's not working. You're just going to think Facebook ads doesn't work or I'm not good enough, which is a very common thing, right? So take the time to do the work. The ground work. Nobody loves to learn rolling patterns. But why is it important? Because if you work from the ground up, you take the time to instill these good patterns underneath. So take the time to do that. And the other thing I would say is just decide, you know, don't go through analysis paralysis. Decide and move. And the only way you're going to know is you got to put it out there. So you know, Facebook lives, Instagram lives. That's, you know, we didn't maybe start when social media was big, but which, so by the way, I have to make a point that I think that's why it's harder for us. Christa Gurka (34:52): So our generation did not, we didn't have, so I didn't even have a computer when I went to college. Nope. Like, so we didn't start with, I didn't have a cell phone like, so it's very different for us because this next generation coming up, they're comfortable on social media. We may not be, but the truth is, it's like everything else, just do it. The more you do it, the easier it becomes. So, and you know, if no one's what, well, I'm afraid no one's going to watch it. But who's watching it now, if you're not putting it out nobody. So you're no worse off. Right? So just do, create an action step. Like, you know there's a book and now I forget who the author is. It's called the one thing, right? And you just focus on thing. Focus on one thing that you can do today to improve on understanding your ideal customer. If you're already past that, what can you do today to understand more about your messaging? Karen Litzy (35:50): Easy. The one thing you could just, just choose one doesn't have to be a million things you don't have, it doesn't have to be perfect. No, and it doesn't have to be perfect. Just one thing. Just one thing. Awesome. And now last question is the one that I ask everyone, and that is knowing where you are now in your life and in your business and your practice, what advice would you give to yourself as a brand new physical therapist straight out of PT school? Christa Gurka (36:19): Woof. Mmm. I would probably say be open to the possibility. Yeah. Yeah. Just be open to possibility of what's possible. Yeah. Karen Litzy (36:35): Excellent advice. Now Christa, where can people find you if they have questions they want to know more about you and your practice and everything that you're doing? What the deal? Christa Gurka (36:44): So my business is Pilates in the groves, so they can always find Pilates in the Grove. All has everything about our business. But they can find more about me at christagurka.com.  I have some freebies up there. So that's like Christa Gurka is more really about kind of business strategy. Okay, great. Like launch you know, mindset, that kind of stuff. And then the Pilates and the Grove website really if you want to look at what we do, brick and mortar wise, do it. But like I said, the websites kind of a mess. Right? Karen Litzy (37:21): We understand it's exceptional times. And, I know that you have some free resources and some freebies for our listeners, so where can they find that? Christa Gurka (37:33): Yep. So there is a link which we can either link up in your show notes, right? Or we can, so there's a marketing quiz that I created that basically will put people at, it'll kind of just give you an idea of where you are. Are you like a novice or are you a pro? Have you got this stuff down? And I could probably be calling you for advice. And then based on where you are, it kind of tells you kind of what you should focus on as well as then we have that lead you into. I have a social media and a Facebook live checklist. It kinda just gives you kind of a little bit of, I find structure helps me. So learning how to batch content, learning to say that like, okay, every Monday I'm going to do a motivational Monday post. Every Tuesday I'm going to do a Tuesday tutorial post. I think it just helps me map things out. And so I think it helps business owners also feel less overwhelmed when they can have a calendar. And we have national days. It has like a bunch of national days that pertain to our industry already built out for you, which is easy. Karen Litzy (38:35): Awesome. That sounds great. And I'm sure the listeners will really appreciate that. So thank you so much. This was great. And again, the thing that I love about all these strategies is it takes very little money to accomplish them. Just some time, which right now I think a lot of people have a lot of time. So thank you so much for taking the time out of your day and coming on. Thank you. And everyone, thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.   Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, Jenna Kantor guests hosts and interviews Javier Carlin on the art of listening.  Javier A. Carlin is the Clinic Director at Renewal Rehab in Largo, Florida. He is originally from Miami, he graduated with his Doctoral Degree in Physical Therapy at Florida International University and is a Certified Strength & Conditioning Specialist through the National Strength & Conditioning Association. In this episode, we discuss: -The difference between nosy curiosity and coaching curiosity -How to frame questions to dive deeper into conversations -Verbal and nonverbal signals to watch for during client interviews -How your clinic environment can help develop deeper client relationships -And so much more! Resources: Javier Carlin Facebook Javier Carlin Instagram  Life Coaching Academy for Healthcare Professionals Phone number: (305) 323-0427   A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode! Learn more about the Redoc Patient Portal here.   For more information on Javier: Javier A. Carlin is the Clinic Director at Renewal Rehab in Largo, Florida. He is originally from Miami, he graduated with his Doctoral Degree in Physical Therapy at Florida International University and is a Certified Strength & Conditioning Specialist through the National Strength & Conditioning Association. Javier has always had a passion for health and fitness and his mission in life is to help you get back to doing the things that you love to do, pain-free. His goal is to inspire people to live a healthier, happier, more fulfilling live through simple and effective wellness principles; proper nutrition coupled with a great exercise routine and good sleeping habits works wonders in how you feel inside and out! Javier enjoys spending time with his family, he loves being by the water either soaking up the sun on the beach or on a boat! He is an avid traveler, enjoys exploring new places and experiencing different cultures. He also has an adventurous side; bungee jumping, skydiving, rollercoasters, cliff diving! For more information on Jenna: Jenna Kantor (co-founder) is a bubbly and energetic girl who was born and raised in Petaluma, California. Growing up, she trained and performed ballet throughout the United States. After earning a BA in Dance and Drama at the University of California, Irvine, she worked professionally in musical theatre for 15+ years with tours, regional theatres, & overseas (www.jennakantor.com) until she found herself ready to move onto a new chapter in her life – a career in Physical Therapy. Jenna is currently in her 3rd year at Columbia University’s Physical Therapy Program. She is also a co-founder of the podcast, “Physiotherapy Performance Perspectives,” has an evidence-based monthly youtube series titled “Injury Prevention for Dancers,” is a NY SSIG Co-Founder, NYPTA Student Conclave 2017 Development Team, works with the NYPTA Greater New York Legislative Task Force and is the NYPTA Public Policy Committee Student Liaison. Jenna aspires to be a physical therapist for amateur and professional performers to help ensure long, healthy careers. To learn more, please check out her website: www.jennafkantor.wixsite.com/jkpt Read the full transcript below: Jenna Kantor (00:04): Hello. Hello. Hello. This is Jenna Kantor with healthy, wealthy and smart. I am here with Javier Carlin, thank you so much for coming on. It is an absolute joy Javier. As a physical therapist. He runs a clinic. What is the name of your clinic that you run? Javier Carlin (00:21): It's renewal rehab. Jenna Kantor (00:23): Renewal. Rehab. In what area though? In Florida. Cause you're part of a chain. Javier Carlin (00:27): Yeah, it's in Largo, Florida. So close to Clearwater. Jenna Kantor (00:30): Yes. I feel like the key Largo, Montego baby. What are we going to make it? I feel like that's part of a song. Right? Well thank you so much for coming on. You also, Oh, you also do have an online course. What's your online course? Javier Carlin (00:45): Yeah. Yeah, so it's a life coaching Academy for health care professionals where I teach healthcare professionals how to become life coaches and get their first clients. Jenna Kantor (00:54): Freaking awesome and perfect timing for that right now with everything. Corona. Thank you so much for coming on during this time and giving us both something to do. I wanted to bring Javier in because he has a skill, a magic skill that if you don't know him or you do know him now, you know, he is a Supreme listener. The first thing we did when we got on this call is, he goes, he just asked me questions just to listen what's going on. And I don't, of course I try to emulate it, but I'm not as good at him. You know, like I asked a few questions and I didn't deep dive as well as he does. So I want to dive into his brain and with this pen that I have holding and I'm going to part the hairs, get through the skull into the cerebrum. And so we can really deep dive into how your brain works when you are learning more about others, the art of listening. So first of all, thank you for having that skill. Javier Carlin (02:08): Yeah, no, absolutely. I honestly had no idea I had it until someone brought it up. And then looking into, it's kind of one of those things where, you know, I guess you have a skill. But you don't really know it. And then you try to dissect, okay, what exactly am I doing? Right? So, you know, leading up to this interview, I'm like, okay, let me actually think about this and reflect on what it is that I do. And what is it that I don't do? So that I can actually, you know, hopefully provide some value throughout the next few minutes. Jenna Kantor (02:40): Yeah, I would love to know. I think I want to just go into our conversation even before hitting the record button. What was in your brain when you first came on? Was it, Oh, I want to know what's going on. I'm just honestly like what was in that led you to start the conversation that way? Javier Carlin (02:58): That's a great question. So to be honest, I mean, I haven't seen you in a long time. We haven't spoken in a while. And so, I really, you know, did want to know what's been going on in your life? I've seen your, you know, posts on Facebook, but really had no idea what it is that you've been working on. And I always know you're up to something. So I really had a deep desire to really find out exactly what you've been working on and the people that you've been impacting. Just to know. I don't know. It's like, it's just natural for me. So, yeah. Jenna Kantor (03:38): You're like a curious George. Javier Carlin (03:40): Exactly. Yes. Jenna Kantor (03:42): Do you think that is a big base of it? It's just true curiosity. Javier Carlin (03:47): Yes. I think it's a curiosity and definitely curiosity. I'm always you know, really in tune with what people are doing. Cause I feel like it just, you know, looking deeper at it. I feel like there's, it just, I come from a place of always wanting to learn more about someone, deeply understand what they're doing and why they're doing it. Cause I think there's a lot to say about that. And it's very similar with you know, health care professionals in the sense that we're working with patients all day and we are truly, really trying to figure out you know, what's going on and where they want to get to and understanding really what they truly want the outcome to be when it comes to us helping them throughout, you know, our physical therapy and other rehab professions. And it's no different. Like that's the same, the same curiosity that I have when I, you know I'm serving patients I have with people in general. So I do believe that curiosity is a big thing and having the curiosity that's a, not in a nosy curiosity but more of like a coaching curiosity and really figuring out what's behind the words that someone is saying. Jenna Kantor (05:02): What do you mean by nosy versus coaching? Would you mind going into more depth on that? Javier Carlin (05:09): So, yeah, absolutely. So I believe, and this is, you know, there's a clear you know, when you're having a conversation with a friend, you're not really thinking about all these things. And then I think deeper into the coaching side of things, you start to think about the specific things. So when it comes to a nosy curiosity, there's always a story that someone's telling you and sometimes the story isn't even related to what the person is actually dealing with. So people use the story to kind of, let's see how I can put this to separate themselves from the interaction that you're having. Cause it's sometimes it's stuff for us to have conversations with people and really get deep down into our own emotions. So the story around it as you know, as someone who's dove into life coaching the story is actually at times something to distract people from that. And sometimes what I mean by nosy curiosity is that we actually get involved in that story, which has nothing to do with why the person is talking to you in the first place. Jenna Kantor (06:09): So it's like this superficial, superficial kind of thing, superficial thing, right? Javier Carlin (06:13): So instead of being nosy and it's the actual story and talking about the people that were in their story, we want to, you know, kind of separate that from the actual person and have a conversation about them and why that situation affected them as a person, not, you know, bringing everyone else. So that's what I mean by nosy. And he knows he's trying to get involved in their story and you know, getting involved in not just their emotions but everyone else's emotions and why they hate their boss and why this and why that. So it's really separating that from what they're telling you. Jenna Kantor (06:45): Hmm. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Could you just keep talking cause I don't even know what question to ask next just because I'm really taking that in right now. Just tell me something else more about listening. Cause I know you came prepared just because when you're going into this, you just opened up a world of how much, I don't know, just from even that concept. So I feel a bit of the, honestly a lot of loss of words for it because just even that concept of the superficial versus diving deep down in, I guess my next question would be then when you deep dive in and you're getting, doing those investigative questions to really find out what really is the core of what's going on, how do you phrase your questions too? Because you're probably going to get to some real personal stuff. How do you do it delicately with them? So that way as you are deepening, deepening your listening, you're not invading their space. Javier Carlin (07:54): That's a beautiful question. So, I think a lot of it comes before you know, before you dive into that. So you know, you've heard of obviously you're building rapport, building trust, and at the end of the day, if someone's coming for help it typically comes with an idea that, okay, I'm going to have to, if I want someone to help me, then I have to open up to them. Otherwise, you can't really help someone. So I think, you know, it comes with that understanding and I think a lot of it also comes from coming from a place of neutrality. So not tying your emotions and your ideas and your thoughts and your beliefs and your opinions to what the person is telling you. Jenna Kantor (08:37): That's hard. That's hard. Yes. Very hard. Yeah. Javier Carlin (08:41): It really is. And, that's where, you know, that's when someone can actually feel that you're trying to either push them in a direction that they don't want to go, or that's where that nosy type of know feeling comes in, where they're like, Oh, like why are you, why are you asking me that? But I think the second thing is whenever you make an opposite, whenever you make a statement that's more of an observation or a fact Javier Carlin (09:08): As opposed to, you know, something that's a bit more emotional, you want to always end with a question. So as an example, a question. So after every statement you want to end with a question saying, Hey, you know, what's true about that? Or what comes to your mind when you hear that? Those, two questions allow you to kind of pull yourself from Hey, listen, what comes to your mind when I say that? As opposed to I'm saying this because Hey, you should do this or you should do that. Or you know, that came out like pretty that that came out as if, you know, instead of saying, Hey, you sound angry. Right? It's saying, okay, like what, you know, when I heard that it sounded like you, you know, there was some anger and what's true about that and now you're giving them the ability to respond back to that. Javier Carlin (09:57): So now it's more of an observation as opposed to kind of like telling them, or you know, letting them know, Hey, you sound angry. Right? There's more emotion to that. It's more of like, Hey, you're coming at me now. That's when someone can get a bit defensive or feel like their space has been invaded. But when you just state a fact and then ask them a question, it makes it a lot easier to have that conversation moving forward. I hope that, does that make sense? Jenna Kantor (10:25): Yeah, that does. That does big time. It actually connects, it brings it back to a conversation I had with my brother. I'm going to go a little deep on my own thing. I remember my older brother and I don't have a good relationship, but this is back in high school and there's a point to this that's not just about me, even though if anyone knows me, I love talking about myself, but he, I remember there was one evening where he was more of a night elephant, and we started talking. It was a rare time, was a rare opportunity when you just get into a deep conversation about life and anything and we were already at least an hour or something in and I'm just feeling my eyes shut on me. And I remember going through this like I have two options to continue this conversation to continue this conversation with him. Jenna Kantor (11:29): So I remember I had this opportunity to continue the conversation and force myself to stay awake and I felt like it was a very vital conversation. There was this little thing that was like, if I cut this off, it will be cutting off something big in our relationship. Me not being here to be part and present when he's open and being open to talking to me, for me to be able to hear what he has to say. Do you think that and it has over time now we don't have more. We have more solidly not a strong relationship. Do think there are conversations like that that exists that if you are not present and listening and you push it away too soon, it could actually cause damage to that relationship long term. Javier Carlin (12:33): Oh, 150%. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. and you know, it's tough. You know, diving back into exactly, you know, what you were feeling and how you're feeling and why perhaps that conversation was maybe at that time of interest or something that, like you were saying, you know, you felt like maybe falling asleep. Javier Carlin (13:03): So, you know, there's a lot to it that we could dissect really. But yes, I do agree with that. I think what happens in many conversations especially, you know, looking into it even deeper, it's, you know, when people have make offhand comments you know, short little statements in between the conversation that you're having. Most people are quick to kind of just let that pass. But that's what the person truly deep, deep inside is actually feeling and really wants to talk about. Everything else is just surface level. So, you know, exploring those offhand comments goes a very long way. And that's when people really know that you're truly focusing on them. And listening to them and that's where you get into those deeper conversations now. Again, back to the story that you just shared. There's so many different factors when it comes to that, but I definitely do believe that that can have a massive impact on, you know, the relationship moving forward and with anyone with, you know, your patients, your clients, people remember how you made them feel and that really, really sticks. Jenna Kantor (14:19): Yeah, you guys can't see me, but I'm like, yes. Hey man, I feel like I just went to church on that. But it's how you made them feel. So then, back to the clinic, you could have say a busy time, a lot of people, a lot of patients and everything and your time is running short. How do you cater to these conversations? If you see that there needs to be more time or if you do need to cut it shorter, how do you continue to feed that relationship, that trust? So you can have find an opportunity maybe later to spend more time listening to them. If you don't have it right then. Javier Carlin (14:52): That's a great question. I think there's several different ways to do it. I'll speak to more cause there's a tactical way of doing it and that's, you know, with I guess you can call it, you know, nature and the relationship through other methods with text messaging, emails and all those things. Right. Where you feel that connection with someone and continue to develop that relationship over time through sometimes automated, you know, systems and or where you're actually just sending a mass email, you know, once a week where it can still actually help to build a relationship. Right. But on the other front, you know, with our clinic specifically the way that we do that, because we do work as a team cause we are, you know, we do have insurance based model. Javier Carlin (15:40): So we do see several patients an hour. Because of the team that we have where for us specifically, it's a PT, two PTAs and two techs. Once we have a fully established clinic and got into that point that is where the PTA is that we have actually step in to treat the other patients that are there. And if I noticed, cause there's a lot of so when it comes to listening, there's, you know, when people say active listening, active listening really is it's not just listening to the words that are coming out of someone else, someone else's mouth, but also painted with everything else that's going on the unsaid, right? You really want to explore the unsaid. And that comes with a body language. You know, a visual cue is a body posture. You know, the way someone says something, their tone, their pace, right? Javier Carlin (16:28): And obviously as you get to know someone, you really get to feel how they feel when they're having a great day and when they're having a not so good day. So, you know, not letting, again, kind of like not letting offhand comments go. You don't want to let those, the visual kind of feedback that you're getting you don't want to let that go either. So, when you do see someone that's in that specific state where they might be disappointed, angry, upset, frustrated, you want to make sure that you address that right there. And then, and the way that we do that specifically at the clinic is we take them into the evaluation room and we can do that because of the fact that we work as a team, everyone on the team knows exactly what every single patient should be doing and knows them at a deep level so I could actually step out and have that deeper conversation with whoever needs it at that time. Javier Carlin (17:20): We'll sit for, you know, five, 10, 15 minutes, however long we need, really to explore what is going on at a deeper level so that we can ensure that they don't drop off. Cause typically what happens is that when you don't, when you just kind of let that go, that's where you get a patient call in to cancel and then it happens not just once, but twice, three times, four times, and then they ghost you. So that's how we handle that situation. Jenna Kantor (17:50): Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's a really important thing to put into place. So for clinics alone, how would you, if they don't have something set up and say they're a busy clinic and they don't have something set up where people can have the time to necessarily sit and listen, how could they start implementing that in order to improve the relationships with their patients and then they're showing up? Javier Carlin (18:13): Yeah, that's a great question. And I think there's so many variables depending on how the clinic is set up and ran. I believe that, you know, I think as you know, obviously as physical therapists ourselves, I think our first instinct is to always like go to like the physical, right? Like, you're feeling this way today. Okay, don't worry. Like, we're going to make you feel better after this. It's like, wait a second. Well maybe the person, maybe for those initial 30 minutes, they don't even need, you know, therapeutic exercises or whatever it is that we're prescribing them for that day. Maybe they just need to have a conversation, right, for 20, 30 minutes and just to let it all out. And those 30 minutes of actually just talking to them just because we can't bill for that time technically. That's going to be the difference maker between them actually seeing the results longterm and dropping off. So it's making that clear distinction and deciding, okay, what this person needs at this point in time is not, you know, to do a core exercises or to get manual therapy. What they need is to just have a conversation about what's going on in their world. Cause ultimately that's what matters the most event. Jenna Kantor (19:28): So yeah, true question. I think that was great. That was good. I just want you to know, okay. So then during this time, the Corona virus, what has your clinic been exploring on a listening standpoint with the switch to virtual to try to fit those needs? Like, I don't know, it's kind of an open ended question for you to interpret this however you'd like. Javier Carlin (19:58): Yes. So I think, you know, it's been, to be honest, it's been a challenge. And the biggest reason why is, you know, knowing that tele-health existed for, you know, the last year, two years, et cetera. And, has been existing, we didn't really make a push to have that as an additional service. So what's happening now is that it's like physical therapy, right? A lot of people still don't know what physical therapy is and it's not something that they necessarily want. It's just something that they need. Right? So, same thing with telehealth. It's something that, you know, now we're adding to things that people don't know, which is physical therapy and telehealth. And now we're, you know, most people are now trying to figure out, okay, how can we push tele-health without, you know, having any like, previous conversation about this. Javier Carlin (20:53): So that's where the challenge lies is that you have people who are, you know, the ones who do know what physical therapy is. We're coming in and you know, when they think of PT, they have this, you know, they have this picture in their mind because it's what they've been doing for the past, you know, X amount of weeks and now you're trying to get them to jump on to a different type of platform to, you know, provide a service that in their minds can only be done in person. So what we've seen started to do is we've started to offer complimentary telehealth visits. So the first visit is completely free 15 to 20 minutes in length. And offering that first, you know, giving the patient an opportunity to experience what it's like and showing them how valuable it can be. Javier Carlin (21:39): And then from there deciding to make an offer for them to actually purchase, you know, X amount of business. And typically, you know, your time is your time, so you want to typically charge the same that you would an actual in person session. But because this is so new, we have decided to offer it at a very, very low rate. So that barrier to entry is a lot less, especially in this time where you know, people's finances might not be at their all time high, or at least, they're not going to say, they're a little bit more reserved with what they're spending their money on. People are still spending money, but with what they're spending their money on. So that's how we're handling that now. A lot of, you know, constant communication through text messages, emails and just listening. Jenna Kantor (22:34): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Thank you so much for coming on. Is there anything else you want to add in regards to the art of listening that you think is a key point for people to take home with them? Javier Carlin (22:47): Yeah, so I think the last thing, and this is actually a quote from Stephen Covey and I have it here cause I didn't want to butcher it, but basically he says most people do not listen with the intent to learn and understand. They listen with the intent to reply. They are either speaking or preparing to speak. So that's it. Jenna Kantor (23:09): That's great. That's a really good quote. Sums it up. Yeah. Well thank you so much for coming on Javier. How can people find you on social media? What are your addresses on Facebook, Instagram, all the above? Javier Carlin (23:32): Sure. So I'm on Instagram. I'm at @drJavierCarlin. So dr Javier Carlin on Facebook have your Carlin's so you can just look me up there and friend request me. I do have life coaching Academy for healthcare professionals a Facebook community. So you can always jump into that as well with a podcast coming out soon. And I think that's it. If you want to send me a, you know, text message and just link up my phone number is (305) 323-0427 to have a conversation. Jenna Kantor (24:05): I love that. I love that so much and if you guys want to see or hear him in action, if you're in the group or even in his future podcast, you'll see from the way he interviews and speaks with people how he really uses his curiosity and deep dives and learns more and listens so well. Just watching him in action alone, aside from just even experiencing it yourself, you'd be like, Oh wow, he's good at this. I feel very listened to, thank you so much for coming on. Everyone jumping in, thank you for joining and have a great day.   Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts!

What does it take to build a bourbon brand from the ground up? In this podcast, you get to hear our story of building Pursuit Spirits. We discuss how we source barrels, design packaging, and navigate the law. Fred interviews Ryan and Kenny on motivation, risks, and how to secure your future with contract distillation. Show Partners: You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Rum. How did you all meet? How did you all decide to start the podcast? Talk about starting your own brand. How did you finance the project? Who came up with the idea to call the releases episodes? After creating this brand, do you have more appreciation for distillers being less transparent? What was the most annoying thing about starting the brand? Do you ever get nervous that your model might come crashing down? How have you been able to meet the demand of your audience? Has launching the brand helped you understand the distillers more? How much time went into the packaging? Talk about the cork. Why is there so much variance in TN barrels? How have you reacted to negative criticism? What distilleries have you partnered with? Do all of the episodes sell out? Any thoughts about doing a batching process? Would you consider outside investment? Any plans for contracting distilling? How do you not oversaturate the promotion of Pursuit Series? Favorite episode? What distillery would you want to partner with if you could? If you had to pick between Bourbon Pursuit and Pursuit Series, which would you pick? If you could buy all the bourbon you wanted from OZ Tyler, would you? Where would you want to spend marketing dollars? Support this Podcast on Patreon 0:00 When we can put it into a single bear offering a cash ranked like, this is what we've tried. Like, I guarantee you, you're gonna love this because we're not going to put it sound like a men's wearhouse commercial. But if it did I love the way you look. 0:25 This is Episode 255 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny, and I hope you've had an enjoyable week in this podcast finds you well. So let's get on to some bourbon news. We missed the deadline for putting this in the podcast last week. So unless you've been staying away from social media, then you probably already know about the new Weller single barrel orange label that will be coming to market soon. The new Weller will be bottled at 97 proof which is a middle point between the traditional Green Label special reserve at 90 and the Red Label antique at 107 will also have a suggested retail price of $50 1:00 You can also check out Fred Minix YouTube channel where he was the first person to review it. So make sure you go subscribe and check that out. There's also a new whiskey coming to market. It's a Tennessee whiskey, and it combines golf, Marion eaves and the Mannings. It's sweetens Cove. The investors behind it have some major name power, including the likes, of course, Peyton Manning, tennis legend Andy Roddick, sports caster gymnasts, singer songwriter drew Holcomb, among others. The story behind sweetens Cove is that it started somewhat off with like an off the grid, nine hole golf course at the end of a gravel road in Tennessee. It was described by some because of its breathtaking views as doffs Field of Dreams. So a group of friends, including some of the previously ones mentioned, bought sweetens Cove back in 2019. With no clubhouse, no plumbing, or really anything else to offer. It has a tradition of a celebratory shot of whiskey for first timers on the first tee. This will be a 13 year old Tennessee bourbon with multiple batches that have been blended by Marion Eve's will continue 2:00 Around 14,000 bottles and have an MSRP of around $200. 2:05 In distillery news, the governor of Kentucky has said that distilleries can reopen for visitors starting on June 8. But please make sure that you put in your phone calls to any distilleries that you plan on visiting because it's up to their discretion on how they're going to reopen. So please make sure that you do that before making any plans to go to visit any. 2:26 Now for today's podcast, many folks have asked us before, what does it take to actually start a bourbon brand. And today, you get to hear our story. We switch things up a little bit. And Fred interviews us on the brand, how we got started our process for selecting barrels for pursuit series and what our future plans entail. We can't say thank you enough to everyone out there who has purchased that bottle of pursuit series and been a steward of the brand because of you are able to help continue and grow this into something even more amazing down the line. We've even got more plans to release something awesome in the fourth quarter of this year. So 3:00 Tune for more details. We've got three barrels that are available today on seal box comm along with less than 65 bottles remaining across specs in the Dallas and Texas and Fort Worth and Austin area so make sure you can go and get all the details on pursuit spirits.com because we have one barrel that is in the Texas market. And if you got a friend or a relative that found bourbon is something that they enjoy while at guarantee, make sure you tell them about the podcast help spread the good word of bourbon and Joe from barrel bourbon wants you to know that it's gotten a whole lot easier to get their unique cash drinks whiskies from around the world, including their rums, malt, and many others. Just visit barrel bourbon calm and click the Buy Now button today. You can get bourbon to your door. Alright, enjoy today's episode. Here's Fred minich with above the char 3:54 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the chart. Whoo. It's becoming a little warmer. It's coming soon. 4:00 summertime. I'm seeing the blooms the flowers. Oh, the sun's out more and maybe you can get a little bit of tan I'm grilling every night. It's just Oh, it's so exciting. I can't wait to hang out. Oh wait, yeah, there's that whole damn pandemic thing, man, but you know what the other thing that summertime does for me, rum cocktails. Rum, cocktails rum punches. I'm constantly experimenting with different rums Listen, I know bourbon bourbon, bourbon bourbon. We talk about bourbon all the time is bourbon pursuit. But ROM is my you know it's my it's my second love all the spirits I love rum so much and I it is so much with fruits. So listen, everybody I'm just telling you right now, get on the rum kick this summer and let's start making some rum punches together. Go get go get go to the liquor store or get online at drizzly or go wherever it is you shop right now in the middle of this pandemic, and look for the different rooms. Okay, here 5:00 a shopping list or these are the rums that I'm telling you right now will make you excited as a bourbon fan. Total wine has a brand that's called a doorless. d'Orleans is made only for, for total wine in the United States. It's made by Foursquare, which in my opinion is the best distillery in all of ROM it's in Barbados. And that ROM d'Orleans whether it's the 12 year old or it's the basic one, it is beautiful. Start out making cocktails with that or drink it neat. Go over to Jamaica, get a little Appleton get a little bit that Jamaican funk on up in there and use that for punches. So get you some orange juice, get some limes and lemons and just squeeze them all in together and throw in some, some sugar and maybe like a look sardo stir that thing up and you got yourself punch, head on over to America and get a little bit of privateer out of Boston, the Boston area. That privateer is absolutely fantastic. Now the three thing that all three of these 6:00 rums have in common. They don't add sugar. That's right. A lot of rums actually add sugar after they have 6:08 dumped in so they'll add up to like 50 milligrams per liter in sugar. Now a lot of people like that a lot of people like that, but hey, I'm a straight bourbon guy. I love my bourbon neat. I love it with just a piece of ice sometimes. And if you are like me, then you probably gonna want something that isn't adulterated with a sweetness, and so privateer Appleton and Foursquare or door Lee's made by Foursquare, take a look at those three things and get back to me at Fred MiniK on whichever social media platform you like. And for a moment, let's talk some rum because it's summertime. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram or Facebook And oh, by the way, I got a YouTube channel. Go check it out. We have a membership area where there's a lot of exclusive content 7:00 Until next week, cheers. 7:06 Welcome back to bourbon pursuit. This is going to be a fun episode in which we discuss the pursuit series something that I am not a part of. But Kenny and Ryan of bourbon pursuit are so I get to turn the tables on them a little bit and ask them some questions about how they got where they are. And I kind of want to start this off, gentlemen. Oh, no, I'm sweating. 7:28 Well, given given what you told us told me off air you should be. Okay. Yeah. Well, we'll hit me up on on social media. I'll tell you what, read what this is really about later, feed you all the dirty secrets and that's 7:43 got another nod. So Alex at the party stories this this episode is about. This is about the pursuit series in the building of it. But of course, you cannot talk about the whiskey that you all own together without talking about this podcast. So I want to go over 8:00 From the very beginning, how did you to actually meet your need? Yeah, you know, it's like we're awkward school, Utah. 8:11 So, I had been listening to podcasts, with my current business, my real paying business. I'd listen to podcasts and in my truck a lot and at the time, I was going to start a lawn care business. Well, I've quickly learned that there's not going to be many listeners or follow on your podcast. I don't think we'd have a Patreon community. Yeah, donate. I'll send you some fertilizer or something. I don't know. But uh, anywho I was really into bourbon. And my brother in law kind of said, Why don't you do a podcast about bourbon? And because you know, so many people you're from Bardstown, as always say, and so 8:47 I was like, Yeah, that'd be cool. But I didn't know how to execute it. Kenny and I had become friends. How did you guys become friends? What where was that moment of where you all became friends because we're in target and we were walking 9:00 past the pop tart aisle we locked eyes and I don't remember that now that now our y's are mutual Kenny. Is that how you wanted the meeting to go? Or I mean, you know, you ever you ever look back and you think like, I wish I could do something over? You know, that might be one of those times but yeah, exactly. Yeah, so our wives were mutual friends and I had a derby party every year. And Kenny would come and bring his mid juillet mix and bring several different bottles. And so we kind of started and he actually liked electronic dance music, and I did too. And so we kind of had it similar, similar interest. And so I knew what he did it and his job was a lot of tech and presentations public speaking, which I had no experience in. Still, to this day, I kind of dread to getting in front of microphone people. But uh, so I needed somebody to call Kenny or I emailed him and said, Hey, what do you think about this? And he's like, Yeah, let's do it. But he was like, we gotta need to come come from this angle. And so we met in my basement for the first time. 10:00 One and we had a laptop and a USB microphone and we just kind of sat around and talked about bourbon and whatnot. And while we were doing this and then I think we recorded it and then we listened to her like we got delete that That's terrible. This was bad. And then for really, and then I still have that recording. I don't know. Gosh, I might actually on my old I would love to my old mic. Actually I put that out for like a bond like GarageBand I need to look that up. That's a good that would be cool to me on fun episode to do. Yeah, it's just one of those things where, you know, when you start anything, you fumble your way through it. Yeah. And, you know, we've we've both gotten much better at the podcast execution, interviewing style, everything throughout the years. It's just been a repetition and you just, you know, you start working at something and you you get better at it as the years go along. Yeah, it's it's kind of a testament to like the theory that like, you know, the the 11:00 10,000 hour rule or something like that, if you want to do something like just because you suck at it first, like, you can become good, just got to do it. So don't let like, perfection stop you from doing something because we've had a lot of imperfections along the way. And it's taken us a long journey to get here, but it's been a cool journey and how when, when did it start getting serious for you in the podcasting space? I would say it, I mean, I'll kind of I'll kind of take that one a little bit, you know, for us it was it was one of those things where, you know, Ryan had he's a very good idea person, he's very driven by it and he's, he's very creative when it comes to it. And then it comes to the execution stage and making sure that it stays consistent and it stays on schedule and it stays like that. And so there was there was kind of like a turning within the responsibilities where you know, he really wanted to run with this and go with it and I said, Sure, like all you know, I've got I've got my own work stuff going on like I'm okay like all kind of just be the the extra voice of reason if you need it and he was taking care of all the editing and stuff like that. 12:00 And then, you know, it got to the point where, you know, I kind of took over a little bit the editing, making sure that we had, you know, the right kind of sound quality and all this other kind of stuff over the years. And there was a point as well where, you know, during that process, you know, when I was picking up and doing a lot of this and putting in tons and tons of hours a week into it. I mean, most people don't understand that, what goes into a one hour podcast, there's at least 20 to 40, even sometimes 60 hours of work that just goes into that one hour. Correct. And so when you when you get to that point, you're spending that much time plus you've got your other 40 hours a week day job, you get burnout pretty quickly. And so it got to the point where we I just said, you know, like we're gonna let it lapse a little bit and we let it lapse, and then all of a sudden, you had people on Twitter saying like, Hey, guys, when's the new episode gonna come out? Yeah, I'm like, oh, people listen, yeah, what year was that? I mean, this was probably 2016 timeframe, had been somewhere during that timeframe. And then there was a 13:00 So I think it was like December of like 2016 as well, actually, it's probably 2015 timeframe when that tweets happened. And then it was 2016 when it was a lot of the work that was really going into it. And I was feeling the burnout. I mean, I was really feeling the burnout from it. And I just said, He's like, I don't really know if their ROI is here. Like, I'll have to go ahead and reevaluate, like, what is this really gonna be worth the time? You know, and I put that tweet out there, there was a lot of good positive responses, Mark Gillespie from whiskey cast saying, like, hey, like, I know, a lot of stuff goes into it. Like he said, Keep at it and stuff like that, too. So even even like competitors in the space were like saying, you know, like, the water a lot of just good, you know, patting on the back and stuff like that. And then there was somebody else that said, Hey, like, why don't you all start a Patreon I'd be happy to support you. And I was like, What the hell's Patreon? And so you go in, you start reading about it, and you're like, hell let's, let's run with it. And then from there, it's just been that's been kind of the the growth and medium that we've needed to help support and sustain this place. 14:00 podcast because it's it's one of those things that you know, this is this is a new medium, it's hard to find advertisers in this new medium. Because there's a lot of companies that I mean, mindset it before it's like it's whiskey, it's distillation, you haven't changed anything in 200 years, probably not gonna change a whole lot of things. And it comes to the marketing aspect of it as well. Right? So it's one of those things that we're waiting for them to kind of catch up with it. So it's, you know, we go and we try to sell we try to talk these people but you know, a lot of times that they'd rather buy a billboard or a bus stop, right, whatever it for you magazine ads, yes. And they love magazine ads still, that's just great. But I mean, like I said, this is just one of those things that we saw Patreon as really our catalyst to really support and grow the show. And that's really what it's been now for the past few years. And it's awesome, too, because we, I mean, we have a great partner with barrel but they've been great and, you know, let us be us but we don't have to like answer, you know, we can kind of be us. We're not like on anyone's agenda or anything. So we could just be true to ourselves and we do what the community wants. We really rely on them to kind of give us ideas and 15:00 What the what interests them and feedback from them. It's been great having that support and you know, ideas bouncing off of them and stuff. So it's, and I remember when you all reached out to me for an interview, 15:14 there were a couple different times you all reach out to me, I helped you get into the legend series. And then when it when you all reached out to me to be an interview about about bourbon. I remember, at the time, there were so many podcasts coming on and you know, there are people trying to do stuff. And you guys kind of had a different feel, you know, and it was just, it was like, he was like, I could be friends with these guys. You know, he, even though I think that was, that's the one of the interviews was where the marzipan thing came from. It's like, yeah, you were like what it was. 15:51 I'd never heard of that. I'm sorry. We never had marzipan and gardening. But it was it was very clear early on that there was some spark there and that you guys were 16:00 trying to do something in this space in a in a medium that I think was 16:06 you know, filled with people who really couldn't, you know, contribute to to the community in some way and I you guys came out and you did it and and the one thing that you know obviously I came on last year I guess a year and a half ago now, you know I came on because I respected what you guys built in and then when you all came out with with your own bourbon that that threw me off so I was like I wasn't expecting that as like that's the kind of move that you don't see media people make. Yeah, I remember off to the result too because I remember we were kind of in like negotiations of 16:46 our partnership or whatnot and the ironing out the details and we were at like an old forest or event I think it was like the President's choice or whatever. But we had just kind of like confirmed that we were going to start this brand and I was like what is friggin and think of this because these are 17:00 reviewer you know, is this gonna throw the deal off? we you know, we set you aside and you're like, we need to talk about this and you went about the bourbon but about our deal and then we told you we're like we're starting our own bourbon brand. You know, you don't we don't want to be involved. We know it will let you to be 17:15 out in the sense that we don't want you involved but we don't want to, you know, implicated Okay, anything for your reviews and whatnot. So, and you're like, Yeah, I don't care if it's totally fine. I was like, Whoa, monkey off my back. Yeah, that was gonna be a total deal breaker. But anyways, well, it's there have been some, some history there of like, 17:36 whiskey, whiskey media. You know, starting a brand there. Whiskey magazine actually had had its own label for a bit in Scotland. So it's not unprecedented. It's just not popular. You know, people tend to to frown upon it. Did you all have any concerns that you know, you would, you would piss off like, you know, the distiller. 18:00 That now you're competing with them. Jimmy concerns like that when you guys were thinking about this? No, not really. I mean, when we, when we look at what we're trying to build, and what we're trying to do, it's we're boutique, I mean, we are not going to be kind of kind of person that we're not going to have to to $20 million to dump into a distillery and build one. We're not gonna be one of those people that are trying I mean, it'd be amazing to get bought out by somebody that's not on the radar, it's probably never gonna happen. Because we're not at we're not that kind of level, right? We're not at a level where we're sourcing hundreds and hundreds of barrels and then creating these crazy single barrel programs and then aging stuff and then trying to release to mass market. Like that's really not what we're trying to do. Yeah. And not only that is you know, we took this as an opportunity to kind of divert it in a in two different ways. So first and foremost, yes, we sourced like, that was the kind of the way that it was all built off of. But when we started this, even to how it all even began was the idea that, you know, we talked about a brand on the podcast, and then a few weeks later, I get this phone call from a guy 19:00 He's like, Hey, I helped build that brand. Would you be interested in doing your own? Like, never, never even crossed our mind, right? The time we were doing, we just kind of start doing single barrels for the Patreon community. We're done. And then they were selling out really fast. And so I was just thrilled doing like single barrels for from other distilleries. And I was totally content with that, you know, at the time. And so like, yeah, our broker called us and he got the idea. And Kenny called me and he was like, Are you interested? And I was like, not really. 19:32 You know, and then he's like, Okay, and then like, two weeks later passed, and he's like, well, I'm going to meet that guy that has let you know this. And I was like, Alright, I guess I'll go you know, it's like, Monday night, how we met it like hell or high water and I never been there like, Oh, go check it out. Go get a cocktail. Yeah. And so we we sat with them, and they were, to our surprise, they were like, I thought they were gonna be like two older guys, like, you know, just kind of real sharp, like, businessman like, you know, kind of like 20:00 Don't know, there's intimidating for some, but like we met them, they're really cool. They like had really great ideas. And the whiskey they had was really good. And I was like, You know what, I think we can make this work. And at the time, I think Kenny just thought, you know, we were gonna do like, a barrel picker too with it. And I was like, No, no, no, Kenny, we need to start our own brand. And like, we could make something much more bigger than just one or two barrels from that. So I immediately left that meeting and I could not sleep for like two nights. I was so excited about the opportunity. Like I told my wife I came home and I'm like, this is this is something I've been dreaming of my whole life. This is opportunity. Like you always wanted to own Well, no, I never did but like that. You know, I've grown up around this my whole life. And I've always been enjoyed bourbon and I love being around the community and just even the opportunity to have my own brand like was like, just shocking to me and like I was so excited about it. I couldn't even put into words. I just bet 21:00 All my attention went to for like, four months. And so Kenny and I gone, you know, got on. I was like, I know a designer, let's get call him get a bottle design made up. Let's go. And then the broker sent us some samples, you know, to kind of pick our first barrel to see if we're still interested in tell him about, you know what we did up here? Yeah, I mean it was it was we had three barrel samples. And we all kind of know that it was coming from Tennessee. We knew that and that was one of the things that we thought ourselves. So we had we had we go into it with the same exact mindset that every other whiskey geek goes out there and they're like, I don't drink Tennessee whiskey. Yeah. And basically in like, no way. We're like, we're like we're from Louisville Bardstown. Kentucky is in our blood. Like, why would we ever do this? And so I said, Alright, you know what, like, let's give it a try. I said, Let's take these three barrel samples. I'll grab a bottle of Henry McKenna. And I said, if it's better than hundred McKenna, this was right after you'd like named whiskey. 21:57 When I say better, like better did our palates, right? 22:00 That day at that time, whatever it is, yeah. And so we sat outside or barrel proof versions of it, you know, we're just sitting there and we're drinking of it, and we're drinking it and home behold, like the first barrel that we lost that we liked. I was I, we loved it. We said, this is it. This is the winner. And that ended up being Episode 001 the first barrel release that we ever did. Yeah, so we went down there. 22:23 I think the first one we went on, they rolled out like 10 barrels that and our intentions were to just buy one barrel, and you know, and we get down there and we taste it. They're like, I don't know. 10 or 12 I can't remember exactly. And we found three that were like really good. And I was like, man, we got about three of them and I'm freaking out. Like how much is this gonna cost? How do we ship them? How do we do all this like there's like, you know, all this anxiety but I was excited because I knew the whiskey was good and I thought that people would enjoy it if they would just, you know, drop the stigma of Tennessee but if they open up the bottle and try it I was like I would because we taste 23:00 A lot of good stuff. I mean, not to say that we're gifted or our palates are better, but we, I mean, we're whiskey geeks like everyone else. And we've tasted pretty much anything and everything. And we thought that this was in that realm of really high quality product. And so I was like, Yes, I'm, I'll put my name on it. And let's get it to market. How did you all get the money to start this to just come from your own financing? Yeah, I mean, this is all completely bootstrapped by what we put into it and everything like that, we've got a pretty good deal that we cut out with our distributor, or our distributor, I'm sorry, our broker where our deal is basically says that we and this is this is also kind of the way that we built this as well. pursuit series is nothing like anything else that you can get in the bulk market because we've talked about the bullet market on the podcast before you want to start a brand. You need 50 barrels, here's your check for whatever 80,000 $90,000 maybe even probably $250,000 whatever it is. 24:00 Few trucks show up, your barrels roll off, you get what you get, right? Where to be empty, some can be half full, some could be full and some good taste like hell, some good, you know, it's just you don't know, it's a huge gamble. And so what we get the opportunity to do is actually go to the broker, and during the day two to 5000, barrels and inventory, he'll roll out what he can for us, and we'll sample through and we will select every single barrel we get to choose from, from the broker. So it's unlike everything else where it's actually a true single barrel that we are choosing out of amongst a lot of these. And when we're looking at a lot of the Tennessee stock, we reject about 80% of the barrels that we go through, right, so we're looking for really the best of the best when we go through this, that those guys that we work with, I won't name names, because you don't want to give them right. Well, no, I want to help them any way I can. 24:48 Because he's been instrumental to our success, and we wouldn't be here without him. But yeah, I mean, from the initial meeting, he was like, he's like, I know, you know, we have you 25:00 are not like typical people we sell to, you know, you're going to buy a barrel here, a barrel there. That's not what we typically do typically, like Kenny said they move 500,000 barrels at a time. And so he was very creative and like, how we could finance it, how we could make this work, he was very interested in making us succeed. And so that was one thing that, you know, is really helped us, you know, be able to cash flow this and kind of get to where it is. Otherwise we, I mean, we put up a lot of money upfront initially, but we were able to kind of recoup that pretty fast with the the financing terms He's given us. Yeah, and those financing terms may not last forever, because I know because like I said, we go and we select barrels now like now when we go when we select barrels, like I said, the first time we went we had 12 or 14 to select from. Now when we go it's anywhere between 30 to 60 barrels, and we do it over the span of two days. And we're slapping stickers left and right. And we're taking like, you know, maybe 1010 to 12 barrels when we do this. And he does the bottling too. Yes. Yes. So that's that's the great thing. 26:00 That's kind of like a one stop shop operation for us they'll do bottling they do labeling so we're able to source our glass source our tops, get our labels created, local design agency that we have and everything like that have them shipped down there. Yeah, you need if you're a bourbon brand out there you want some repackaging, or when to start relay design. They're incredible. Yep, here in local relay design as the one who actually helped build our, our label and everything like that. So um, so I was curious. The who came up with the idea of calling, you know, first of all the pursuit series, that makes sense, you know, but who came up with the idea to call each one of them in episode that was me. Really, just a brilliant idea I loved it was like each barrels, you know, a single barrel, so they're all unique, and I was like, we're really trying to 26:49 play off the podcast keys and that's where we were successful. And so I was in, you know, most bourbon bottles when we were doing the packaging and design. Most of bourbon balls are really masculine and they're very light 27:00 Serious, you know, they're dark, they're, you know really kind of like leather manly kind of and I wanted to brighten it up kind of make it fresh and fun and playful and our designer had the same kind of vision too. So he kind of, you know, if you'd look at a bottle, you know, it looks like you know, an iTunes 27:19 podcast player. So there's a play button, you know, there's the show notes and so I kind of came up with the episode and then I think you might have came up with the show notes I can't remember but we just wanted to play off the podcast as much as possible because you can do that with single barrels because they're all unique and they're all individual and they have their own different things that we like about them so I thought it made sense. We also stand on the shoulders of giants at the end of the day, right? I mean, we look at we a lot of this inspiration came from the brands that we already like and we cherish I mean when we look at what you can do from will it family estate, which you get with old forester birthday bourbon, when you look at that we took a lot of those cues and put them into there. You know with Will it family stay 28:00 Having a single barrel offering and knowing that like when that bottle is gone that's it when people are out there and they're like I've got to have barrel c nine D like gotta have it and then you know if that translate to the same thing as somebody says like oh I need Episode Five from you know procedures whatever it is they kind of translate that and we we try to be as transparent as we can on the label like that's one thing that we come from a whiskey background is like as much as we can put out there from you know, the proof the age everything like we want to make sure everything is ha did as much as possible. Not only that, as you know if we can 28:33 divulge the distillery we will we do that again with some of the craft offerings that will do yeah, and with the art labels are paying the s and are the most inefficient thing ever and it's my fault because of the episode and also, I did steal from birthday bourbon when I was looking at bottles on the shelf. I thought I liked how birthday bourbon had a different color of each one. And so when you look at a shelf, and you look at the different colors, you can say oh I have that particular 29:00 year two particular so I wanted that each episode to have their own color. So you look when you have them lined up, you're like you know which episode you have. Yeah, so both of you have been a part of the narrative of trying to get whiskey distillers to be more transparent. Now that you're on the other side a little bit. Do you understand? Do you have a little bit more appreciation for those distillers who may not be as transparent as they should be? Well, I can see in some instances, yes, I can see it because they've worked hard to build that brand recognition build that they, you know, they spent a lot of money to trademark you know, and protect that name so I can understand that they don't want some like piggybacking off that and kind of in particular, like we're talking about someone who may, like source their whiskey out or sell it at like Barton wood or decal, or even in some circumstances at once upon a time brown Forman or for Rosa heaven hills sourced a lot. Yeah, yeah. So I can understand why they don't end there. You know, at a time there were so many 30:00 People source and they still are, but there's so many different brands sourcing so I could see it, you know, just being confusing and 30:08 but at the same time too, it's like, it also helps them because it's like, you know how many like Lux ro s or Brooks seven or you know that you know, it's heaven Hill juice and you're like, Damn, that's good. It just elevates the heaven Hill brand even more in my opinion. But what I find fascinating is when one of them when a when one of them win an award, they're like, Well, you know, whose whiskey that really is? I was like, Yeah, I know. It's brown Forman. Why don't you let the world know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that was one of the things that we try to do is we try to take a lot of the things that the whiskey geek would find appreciative, right, and we try to divulge as much information as we can. And at the same exact time, I think that we've had a lot of good success and a lot of good feedback on the show notes portion as well. Because if there's somebody that says 30:54 I don't feel like taking a risk and a gamble on an on a 75 or $115 bottle, like I don't want to do that. Well. 31:00 What we do is we try to put our show notes like we try to find a prominent flavor or a little spin on it, that is a way that you can kind of get an indication of like, this is the flavor that we are getting inside this bottle, right? So you have a little bit of a better estimation of what you're getting yourself into that you're just not blindly throwing money at it as well. Let's go on to take it back to like the starting of the brand. I want to ask both of you this question, what was the most annoying thing at the very beginning about starting a brand? The government like paperwork, the paperwork is so annoying and so slow and so cumbersome? It's, I mean, they they really like they want you to quit, like they don't want you because the amount of paperwork and the waiting and all the stuff you have to fill out the trademarks, all this stuff. It's I mean, it's a lot of legwork and upfront costs just to even like get a label approved. And that that was the most annoying for me. Oh no, I agree with you because 32:00 Even going in navigating the process of figuring out like, okay, like what kind of license can we get? Like, we can't get a DSP because we don't own a distillery. We don't own a warehouse. We don't own these things. What kind of license do you get? And you look around, you're like, Well, I know this company x and this company, why like they don't own a distillery, like, how are they doing this? So there's this whole world of these even navigate to figure out like, Oh, that's what it means. We had to get our wholesalers license, and then we got our wholesalers license, and then we're like, Okay, well, let's go ahead and we'll start navigating this path. And then even trying to like we don't we haven't released anything from GP we have a bottom in GP, but we said, there's some good stuff from a GP, like, let's go ahead and get samples. And we talked to them and they're like, hey, okay, we need your DSP. Like, we don't have a DSP. Here's a wholesale license. They're like, What the hell's a wholesalers list? So it's like, you know, there's this whole world that it's just like, it's It's so confusing, that's underneath the covers, and even the people and they're like, we don't even know what you need sometimes, like, like, you fall with the Kentucky ABC. And they're like, we don't even know what you need. Like, let me try to get my supervisor well. 33:00 call you back in like four months. 33:03 That's a true story. Maybe not four months, but it was at least a few weeks. And yeah, there, we try to get registered with the state of Kentucky when we're trying to trying to least open up distribution in the state. And it was kind of like, well, what papers do you need? Well, I don't know. What do you have? Yeah. And then like you're you're buying and then you're buying whiskey and trying to transfer pause, the government's on shut down and you can't, so then they they're not doing anything. And then they have a backlog. So it takes even longer and you're like, you know, I own several businesses. And it's like, I like to move at a fast pace. I like to get things done. And Kenny's the same way in tech. And it's like when you try to do anything is you have to plan at least eight months in advance because it just takes that much in paperwork, shipping distribution and all this stuff. It's so slow. Wow. Yeah. I mean, our first bottles we were supposed to release of november of 2018. Right now they're supposed to be in September, and 33:57 they didn't Yeah, they didn't release till what December. 34:00 Yeah, late December. Yeah. All right. So you guys, it takes a little while to get some approvals. But you get it you get, you get your look of the bottle and everything ready to go and then you get your first release out. And it's a pretty successful release. It's sold out quickly. Within a within a day. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's who I mean, what new brand can say they sold out their first release in a day. Well, to be fair, it's only it's a single barrel. So it's only 100 fake. You know, that shit, guys, it is. It was surreal. I you know, I thought it I thought it'd be quick, but not that quick. And so it was very, it was very cool. But with that, you know, is new to us and new with our our distributors toolbox. They were just kind of up and running. And so there were a lot of just roadblocks from both ends, like we didn't know how to do customer service or some shippings didn't get, you know, correct, you know, not their fault. Just 35:00 Just things happen, you know, when you're shipping things and you're like, from now on, we got to hold back so many bottles so we can make sure we can cover you know, all the, you know, anything have any things happen because we, we literally need to sell out everything to like recoup our money like so we didn't, you know, keep a bunch of bottles, you know, so we're just like, we need to sell it. And so we definitely learned that aspect. We need to hold back some to 35:24 Yeah, fix any errors. Any you know, on that note, you know, you know, big shout out to Blake. Yeah. What didn't mean what he wasn't trying to talk? No, no, absolutely. But I'm just saying like this. This is only successful because of him so far, right? I mean, yeah, Blake has been a great part. It was it was one of those things when we were I remember being there at our broker. And you know, we had to take a break because there's another person there doing a barrel pick. And we go we're in the break room, and I'm on the phone with Blake because Blake was just like just getting steel blocks off the ground, just like kind of like an idea. And I said like, Alright, man, you got to tell me how this works. 36:00 Because we have a national audience, we're not going to sit there and try to cover the entire US and try to get distribution in all these different states. Like, tell me how it works, right. And so that has been instrumental in being able to get this in the hands of our followers and listeners across the nation. And this is kind of why we are also a big supporter of breaking down the, you know, the Commerce Clause and the opening up shipping between states and everything like that. And, you know, we've we've seen the power of what, not having a distributor can actually give you Yeah, I mean, that's that's really what we've ultimately found at this at the end of the so one of the one of the things that 36:42 what how it's being operated is a threat to the three tier system. And there's so much money behind that and there's so many people out there trying to defend it right now. Do you ever get nervous that this model might come crashing down at any time 37:00 Any minute when we we bring a day. Yeah. And we branched out because that there, there was a time last year. 37:08 In the summer I kind of was like, Alright, we need to kind of diversify how we're going to get this into people's hands. And so we've, we looked at our biggest states and where we have the most listeners or who who have 37:24 followers who's purchased things from us. And so I was like, Alright, let's look at those states. So it was Kentucky, Texas, Georgia. And so I was like, we need to get some distribution, traditional distribution set up in those states, because we want to be able to get just in case something we want to be able to get the product to where we have the most fans. Well, you have you have that's twofold, right? I mean, you have one where you have stores that want their own exclusive single barrels, like they want to be able to have that for their customers. And then second, you can't get away from the eyes that you get just eyeballs Right. I mean, when somebody just goes into a liquor store and they start looking and 38:00 What's on the shelf? What's behind the glass case? Blah, blah, blah, blah. It's a lot easier to get eyeballs on your brand doing that than it is to say, hey, go visit this website. Yeah, right. I was amazed like, when we when our list our audiences found but when you tried it like we did a friends and family barrel where we were like selling just to our friends and family to say thank you for the support, you know, and you know, a lot of my family members are like, like, what do you mean I can't go get on the shelf like I can't go to liquor barn again. I was like, No, you gotta go this website and like ordering like, that sounds like too much work. I was like, really? You'd be on every day. Like while I was gonna say when Bart did they just get internet or 38:38 I've got dollop now, you know, thanks a bit, you got mail. But even just like everyday consumer, you know, people that are whiskey geeks like you tell them they're like, Where can I go get on the shelves. There's still this mindset of in which I like it to like go on the store, talking to people seeing it on the shelf and see what it looks like holding it and so there's definitely that you 39:00 kinda have to like change people's mindset that you can get online order and it'll show up. Yeah. Because there is something about the experience of going to the store. And having that built in audience to it. You want to you want to be able to supply 39:15 you know, meet the demand of this audience, this podcast audience, and how have you all been able to do that aside from silver box? So I mean, that's it's see boxes, it's the main driver, right? I mean, going online was the main driver. And that's only because that is the best mechanism to get it in the most hands across the US. We can't get into everybody's hands because of certain states. But that's why we said traditional distribution. Yeah, I mean, those states and that was one of the things I think I think Ryan had that that lightbulb moment when he had to actually go to Texas for for an event. And he realized Houston alone has more population, the entire state of Kentucky and what just I was in Dallas, but yeah, Dallas has like 7 million people. He says like 11 you're like Kentucky has like 40:00 Three or 4 million people, you know, there's a ton of people here. There's more barrels of bourbon here, then then people as Yeah, like to say so Exactly. We're a small state. But yeah, that's one of the main drivers when we look at population that's and that's one of the things when now we start connecting those dots when we start talking. And you start hearing about other distilleries, and they're like, Oh, I'm sorry, this brand is not going to launch in Kentucky. And people are like, oh, like, you're not gonna launch in your own backyard. And it's like, no, Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Zach has the honor of having a conversation with Dr. Erin L. Thomas, Head of Diversity, Inclusion & Belonging at Upwork, about organizational equity during the COVID-19 pandemic. She graciously shares some advice regarding what organizations can do during this time to at the very least reduce harm for their black and brown employees and talks a bit about how her perspective and focuses at work have shifted as this pandemic has continued. Check the links in the show notes to connect with Dr. Thomas!Link up with Dr. Thomas on Twitter! She's also on LinkedIn. Links in order:https://bit.ly/3c0BXKhhttps://bit.ly/3c7qhFELearn more about Upwork on their website. You can view their open positions by clicking here. Links in order:https://bit.ly/2TEC8Vnhttps://bit.ly/2A5X00WFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, everybody? It's Zach, and you know what? I'ma just go ahead and say it right now. It's also Emory. Emory, say something. [Emory breathes] That's just her breathing. Emory is, at the time of this recording, six weeks old. So we're here because I'm on daddy duty and my wife has to get some sleep. That's right. Husbands, help your wives, or partners rather, excuse me - not to be overly gendered on a podcast all focused on inclusion, equity and diversity. Help your partners, you know what I'm saying? Everybody, you know, they--one person can't do it all. Sometimes you gotta step in, and this podcast is great, and I love y'all, but of course I love my daughter the most. Well, I love my wife also. Let me not do any type of weird hierarchy right now live, like, a live-streaming conscience of thought on the podcast, but the point is you have responsibilities. There are things that take precedent. And look, we're in a new normal, so I'm just here. Where was I? Right, Living Corporate. So look, Living Corporate amplifies and centers black and brown voices at work. Why do I say black and brown and not, like, people of color? Because I want to be very explicit, we want to be very explicit, with what our mission is. So we aim to center and amplify black and brown identities, marginalized folks, folks on the periphery, in the workplace, and we do that how? We do that by having real talk in a corporate world. Now how do we do that? We do that by interviewing incredible leaders cut from all type of cloth. And, you know, we've had executives. We've had professors, entrepreneurs, public servants, activists, civil leaders, elected officials. We've had all types of people, artists, and today is no different. Today we have Dr. Erin L. Thomas. Dr. Thomas is the head of diversity, inclusion and belonging at Upwork where she leads diversity, inclusion and belonging, or DIBs. She leads the strategy implementation and coaching for all of Upwork. Prior to Upwork though, Dr. Thomas was a managing director at Paradigm, a diversity and inclusion strategy firm where she partnered with companies to embed DIBs into organizations through culture transformation and people development. Prior to Paradigm, Erin held positions at Grant Thornton LLP, Argonne National Laboratory developing D&I strategies, programming and metrics. Her work has been featured in Fast Company and the New York Times and recognized by Forbes, Human Rights Campaign, the National Association for Female Executives and the Equal Opportunity Magazine. She holds a PhD in social psychology, a Master of Philosophy in social psychology; a Master of Science in social psychology; and a Bachelor of Arts in psychology and international studies from Yale University. She is accredited, y'all. Okay? Don't question us, okay? We're coming to y'all. We bring y'all heat rock every single week, and the heat rock we bring is because we have guests that have heat rock. I'ma say heat rock again just so y'all get the point. Yes, I'm turnt up. Yes, it's a Tuesday. Who cares? Erin, what's up? Welcome to the show. How are you doing?Erin: I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. Hi, little baby Emory. I am so excited to be here, and I want to give you a number. So I'm really into, during COVID times, anchoring, you know, "How are you doing?" on a scale. 1 is, you know, "We've got to get out of here and get some more support." Like, "We're not doing well." 10 is, you know, "COVID what? COVID who?" But I think, like, if you're a 10, you also probably need some external support. Zach: Facts. [laughs]Erin: And I think today I am... I'm, like, a 7, 8. I'm very excited to be chatting with you. What's your number?Zach: That's a really good question. You know, I don't know. So it's interesting because your scale, I don't know how it accounts for, like, other things, right? So, like, I'm also here with, like, a six-week-old baby. So maybe I'm, like, a--so, like, coronavirus is not, like, at the top of my mind because I'm trying to focus on keeping this thing that looks like me alive. Maybe I'm, like, a--I'd probably say I'm, like, a 7, 8. Like, I'm pretty good. I'm happy, right? Like, I mean, life is good. The new Drake album--well, not the album, but a little collection of loosies came out recently that was very good, that I enjoyed. You know, my favorite shows are still coming on. I've caught up on some anime. So I'm keeping myself well-distracted.Erin: [laughs] That's good. I think distracted is good. I think--I don't know, I think in the beginning days of all of this it felt, for me at least, a little weird to compartmentalize, or I felt a little guilty, but I actually think that's incredibly healthy, you know, to find moments of just pleasure and delight. That's all we got, right? That's all we got.Zach: I mean, this--the reality is that before this pandemic, like, I was already a homebody. Now, people at work--like, people who know me from work would--they may not know that, because, like, in person, like, I'm a fairly gregarious guy. But, like, you know, people are complex, right? I think, like, we create a lot of these terms and things that aren't really academic or scientific just to kind of better compartmentalize people, like, "You're an extrovert, you're an introvert." It's like, "I mean, I enjoy people, but I also enjoy being alone." Like, I enjoy being at home, being with my wife and now my kid. Like, I'm fine with that. But I'm glad, I'm glad that you're excited. I'm excited and in a good place as well. You know, this would be interesting to do again, like, if our numbers were wildly different, right? So, like, you're a 7, 8, I'm a 7, 8, but if I was, like, a 2, then, like, I wonder how the dynamics of this discussion would look, especially considering what we're talking about.Dr. Thomas: Yeah. I mean, I think then--and this has happened to me at work, right? Like, I come in low and someone else is high or vice versa. I think then that's the--I mean, that's the point of it, right? It's a moment of pause to figure out what do you need to put aside or do you need to get off this call or how can I support you and give that person who's lower an opportunity to either just share or not or articulate more. I just think it's a great window into "How can we work together towards whatever it is that we need to achieve?" And if now's not the time, fair. You know? We gotta go and come back together when we're both in the right space. I think that happens all the time, we just don't often put numbers to it, right?Zach: I agree, I agree. So look, that actually is a really good segue for us to get into this. Like, this pandemic, it continues to expose and exacerbate all types of inequities, from social to governmental and of course workplace, just all across the board, and I'll tell you, frankly it just feels overwhelming for me to think about holistically, let alone try to address, and so I'm really curious about just, like, considering your role with Upwork, I'd love to hear how your perspective and focuses have shifted as this pandemic has continued, and considering your level within Upwork and, like, the organizational power that you wield by way of your level, I'd love to hear about how power and influence has shaped your praxis.Dr. Thomas: Yeah. Whoo, this could take the whole hour, which, you know, happy, happy to unpack it for that long, 'cause it's deep. It's deep and very real. Like, the quickest answer for me is not that much has actually changed about the objectives that we set out to achieve for this year. How we go about them certainly has had to stay agile and nimble, but in the work that I do that's always the case. I always like to be super responsive to context and not get so [prescriptive?] about how we execute but to kind of keep our eyes on the prize, and so from my personal vantage point, I--especially during the beginning days of this--have never felt more critical than I do right now. You know, I think there's so many external conversations and great thought leaders who have articulated this better, what this crisis has really done, like most crises, is magnify fractures, gaps, inequities, that already existed, and so I've used this really as an opening to accelerate my platform and the work that I'm doing for marginalized folks at our company. So just to dig into it, you know, I did a couple of tactical things once it became clear to me that, you know, "This is serious. This is not the flu. This is gonna change everyone's lives forever," and I don't think that's an overstatement. So once that reality sort of set in, the first thing I did was I revisited these operating principles that I had crafted when I started at Upwork. So I joined the company in December of 2019. I'm only about weeks in, and there's been a lot of change since then, internally and obviously externally, but as a team of one and as the first DIB leader in our organization, I thought it was really important for me to just get anchored on what [?] and, you know, use that decision framework for really [advertising?] how I [fell?] in my role. I think, especially when a role like this is new or especially when someone comes in with a multi-disciplinary background [or] a very strategic lens, folks don't necessarily know what the role is and they kind of fill in their own blanks and make their own stories. So that was important to me, and I revisited those once we started quarantining just to make sure that they were evergreen and [stood up?] in this crisis, and they did, thankfully, and I can put [?] on my name. There's only four, and everything we do is, you know, it's systemic, so #1 is account for the systems and structures we're operating in, and that's, you know, systems and structures within our company and certainly externally as well. So that's #1, definitely holds true today. #2 is everything we do is tailored to the most specific population or the most specific point in the employee experience as possible, and so it kind of goes back to how you introduce the podcast, which is it's basically about centering. We have to get specific. We have to get articulate and discrete about what problem we're trying to solve or what opportunity we're trying to seize, and certainly during public times that's been really critical, and I think that principle holds up. The third is active. So I really wanted to mark that for myself and for others. You know, there's no passive way to do this work. Like, we're gonna have to change some things, and, you know, I think that's intuitive, but also [?] to declare. And then the fourth thing which is super critical for me, and this is where I see a lot of DIBs or DEI, whatever acronym you want to use, professionals flounder a little bit, is being pragmatic and being compelling and cohesive and telling, you know, one story that folks can get behind that also makes sense in the context of the day-to-day decisions and work that they're doing, and I think too often DIBs work kind of exists in a bit of a vacuum, right? It's a little bit of a tag-along or an extra-curricular, and I think that's the piece, you know, during corona times, that I've had to really get critical, even more so with myself, about "[?]," right? Like, do people have the capacity for this new thing or this new structure or this new effort and just really kind of giving grace to the folks who have to carry forward on the strategies, who have to, you know, change their behaviors, because it's a lot to ask even in the best of times, and I want to push and, again, lean into this comfort, but also be gracious with the fact that folks are dealing with a lot right now. So that's one of the things I did, was just, like, double-check on the way that we're going about this work. So relevant during this time. Another thing was just re-prioritizing some of those actual objectives. There were just, like, a couple that, even before corona, were nicer to have, but now it's clear that this is not the year to be working on the frills. It's really--we gotta stick to the essentials in terms of our strategic goals. And then the last thing I'll quickly say is I actually really leveraged the fact that it seems like most folks are becoming kind of armchair experts in academiology these days, right? Like, I'm learning more, more about viruses and how they spread, and I think there's some really interesting--and if I thought about it hard enough there could be a poem out of this, but, you know, I think there's some really interesting overlays between what we're seeing with the virus [Emory makes some noise] and how I think about people and the fact that--hey, Emory! The fact that we are all connected, we're all inter-dependent, and we need to center the most vulnerable. I think, as a society, that's becoming more and more clear, just with the true facts that are coming out from COVID, but it also I think has been what activists and DIBs practitioners have been saying for, you know, decades, and so I think, at least in my company, it sort of seems like there's this window of opportunity to seize on this understanding of centering and equity and disproportionate impact that folks are getting externally and [?] that same framework and understanding through the work that I do internally. I just think folks are grasping it a little bit more easily now than they might have been before this. So that, for me, has been exciting.Zach: That's awesome. And yes, hello, Emory. But no, you're absolutely right. [laughs] You know, what I find curious about this time, or intriguing even, is that because of the real impacts that this pandemic is having with folks that look like us and that don't look like us and the frustrations that come along with that, it's creating avenues for people to have even more frank conversations and to really kind of, like, get past some of the jargon and, like, these super long monologues about whatever and really get into, "No, how can we actually create impact and change and help? Because there are people who actively need help," and I think that's--and I try to be, like, a silver lining type of person, so, like, that's--so I would say that is something that is a positive out of all of this. I do think also, to your point around DEI practitioners, I do think that there's a bit of a gap when it comes to, "Okay, how do we transition from--" And I've talked about this with some other folks in the past. I think we're now doing a decent job of, like, talking about the historicity of oppression, or we'll talk about systemic inequities in, like, these very, like, high level systems that almost seem--like, we speak about them almost, like, in the abstract, right? So we'll say, like, "Well, you know, black men, they have disproportionate--they're targeted by police and da-da-da," and it's like, "Okay, that's true," and I'm not being dismissive of that. "Let's talk a little bit more about the systemic inequities in your workplace though," right? Like, "How can we transition these conversations to be a bit more practical and targeted to the reality of your employees?" And, like, that's--and I get why, you know, there's a variety of reasons why we don't necessarily have those conversations when I don't think we necessarily know how, but then two, like, it's increasingly uncomfortable to have conversations about actual power in your workplace, because then we start looking at individuals, right?Dr. Thomas: Yeah. I mean, it's hard, or maybe impossible, not to take, you know, a conversation about power and privilege personally, but at the same time I think where I've seen the most effective work, where I've done the most effective work, is where we actually sort of meet somewhere in the middle. It's about what roles or positions do we hold, how are those products of a greater societal system, and given the seat we're in--it's not really about us. I think it's really about the position. But given that we fill it, you know, what is our responsibility? To disrupt things that before now we weren't aware, you know, we were products of, or now that we are we realize we have a bit of an urgency to leave a legacy or leave things better than where we found them, and I think that's where the activation can happen. That's where we can get [?] without guilting people, right? Without making them defensive. I think it's just the reality of, "Oh, this is all by design, and we're sort of products of this greater architecture. So now what are we gonna do about it?" And if we're not gonna do anything, that's fine too, but then we should stop talking about it. Right? So, like, that's fine. I don't--[laughs] I want to be clear that I don't judge or begrudge that. It's fine. You know, companies and leaders can make those choices, but then stop talking about it. That's where--right?Zach: Yes. That's my rub too. At a certain point it's like, "Look, I'm tired of us talking about diversity being our strength and there not being anybody that looks like me that actually has any type of authority or power." You know, "I'm tired of us always--" Like, not shoehorning in, because no disrespect. We talk about gender in these very, like, binary, exclusionary ways without being intersectional at all with race or sexual identity. We talk about sexual identity in these binary ways without including race. We ignore any race trans identities, particularly trans black female identities. So, like, if we're gonna do this, let's do it. If we're not gonna do it, let's not. It's 2020. Rona or no rona, let's just--let's just be honest. [both laugh]Dr. Thomas: I agree. I mean, you know, that's where folks get disillusioned. That's where, you know, when the word doesn't match the deed, it reads as inauthentic because it frankly is, and I think most companies or leaders within them would be honestly better served to talk a little less about diversity, about inclusion, about equity, [then keep on?], or to raise--you know, raise the bar for themselves, but this weird in-between is just not working, right? It's not working. It's frustrating the folks who are most impacted. And then we see the results, which is very minimal quantitative gains when it comes to actual representation within the workforce. So these things all [?] together. They all relate, so yeah.Zach: They do. Now this is me going off the chart, but it just popped in my--not popped in my head, 'cause I think about it a lot, but we didn't talk about it for this interview. We gotta have you back, Erin, 'cause I really want to talk about in group, out group dynamics and the pressures that marginalized people in positions of authority have to, like, toe the line in that regard or how much they push against to then create inclusive workplaces for people who look like them. 'Cause, like--no, and I recognize that's a big topic, but, like, I just want to say this 'cause it's on the top of my heart and my mind. Like, I've noticed--and I've had these conversations, like, with black folks, like, off the record, right? So, like, in consulting, you know, there's all these different tracks of leadership, and, you know, the highest up is typically managing director or partner, and I've talked to some black partners who I really respect and everything, and I'm like, "Look, how many of you do you meet?" 'Cause the people that I talk to, like, they're with it. Like, they're conscious. They genuinely care. They try to use their access, power and privilege, relative power and privilege, to help other folks that look like them--and I'm talking, like, two people, right? [both laugh] And I asked them like, "Yo, what's going on? Like, why are the rest of y'all a bunch of Clarence Thomases up here? Like, what is this?" And so we had this whole frank discussion about it, but I really want to have you back on, because, like--I don't know. I feel like you and I could have that conversation, but I want to have it because, like--and I had this very... it was not uncomfortable. Wait, let's pause. Everybody stop, everybody. Y'all should know by now. This is, like--we're a couple hundred episodes in, hundreds of episodes in actually of Living Corporate. Y'all know I enjoy awkward conversations, so this exchange I'm about to explain to y'all was not awkward for me. It was awkward for them, okay? It was not awkward for me. So, you know, I had this conversation, and--[Emory makes noise] Oh, goodness, my daughter is loud. Hey, y'all. Y'all, check it out. Y'all hear these vocals by Emory. Don't play. No labels, but, you know, we'll make a SoundCloud soon. So anyway, I was talking to this person and I was like, "Look, the reality is the folks in power only let a certain amount of us in these spaces, okay, and when you see us in these spaces high up, like, to find somebody that looks like us in those spaces who genuinely care, who are not closing doors behind and who are speaking truth to power--" Again, I'm not asking you to come show up in a Kunta Kinte shirt. I'm just saying if you could just--[Dr. Thomas laughs] Okay? If you could just, you know, act like you're black, act like you recognize, you know, experiences. To find those types of people, it's like finding a unicorn with gold teeth, you know what I mean? It's crazy. Dr. Thomas: Yeah, and it's hard for me to speak to personally simply because my role is diversity, right? [both laugh] I'm not here as a [?] professional, I am a diversity expert and researcher. So that's, I guess, a privilege if you will that I hold as a leader in my company, and I recognize that. It was true in my last role too. I was in a consulting firm, and I was on the leadership team, but we were a diversity consulting firm, right? And so even in there you see some of that where, yeah, I had to really reconcile with the fact that I was doing this work and certainly had more latitude to, you know, speak that truth to power than I would if I were in another profession, and at the same time even I find myself vigilant, of course, and protective, of course, of how much is too much, you know? Where do I strike that balance of advocating in ways that people can hear versus that active, you know, operating principle that I called out earlier, you know, [?] folks that healthy discomfort. It's tough. It's a whole level of calculus that I have become I think decent at. I think also though I always--and, you know, we should talk about this another time because we can go real deep into this, right? I always view this dance of, like, on the one hand, any professional--especially any leader--is context switching and code switching all the time, right? Like, that is effective leadership, right? That's effective, but yet when you're a person of color, when you are black--which I can speak to--when you're brown, I think it creates some compunction of, like, "How much of this is playing the game that anyone would play and how much of this is selling out?" And I don't have an answer. I think everyone has their own barometer for that, but it's something I challenge myself on all the time. Like, "What of this feels like me and what of this feels like I'm becoming complicit in something that I don't subscribe to?" And, you know, sometimes I can't really codify when I'm feeling uncomfortable, but I know what I'm feeling, and that's when I have to really check myself and really examine if how I'm showing up or what I'm sharing or advocating is really serving my key audience, which is our marginalized folks at our company.Zach: Yo, so thank you for real. Sound Man, put a little round of applause in here for Erin answering this question off the fly, 'cause we did a pre-production. This was not part of the questions, but it was just something on top of my mind. Thank you so much. Now, look, let's get into this though, because we're just now really at the top of the conversation we planned on having. So look, at the time of us recording this, over 32 million folks have applied for unemployment benefits. At the same time, many companies are trying to retain their employees and keep them engaged in new working environments. I mean, there's even a lot of unofficial conversations happening on companies having pressure to not let go of too many minority employees in the name of just optics and potential legal ramifications. I'm curious, can we talk about this dynamic [?] where tensions may be, particularly for black and brown employees.Dr. Thomas: Sure. I mean, when I hear this question I'm really thinking about it as what are black and brown workers maybe thinking, feeling, [?] with individually if they are still employed, and I think I've seen both--at Upwork it's certainly [?] as well, 'cause obviously I consume research, I consume, you know, thought leadership externally, and I think there's a picture that's sort of forming for me in my head, which is there's a range I think of emotional reactions for folks who are still employed, and I think at its best folks are feeling really grateful of course. Right? It's sort of--going back to operating on a scale of 1 to 10, it's, like, yeah, a very compartmentalized 1 to 10, but, like, we're grateful for the blessings we have, and I think certainly that is true for folks who are in jobs with fair pay and fair benefits. They want to give their all to their employers because their circumstances could be so much worse. And I think especially in, you know, people work, in mission-driven organizations and purposeful organizations, that's incredibly true, you know? I'm seeing more and more come out, for instance, among mental health professionals who are burning out 'cause they're just giving it all. And I think, you know, in normal times it's hard to strike that balance of taking care of others versus yourself, and I think especially now, if folks are lucky to still have some semblance of job security, they're giving a lot, and they're very grateful. I think, towards the more extreme ends of this spectrum of reactions, I'm also seeing certainly some guilt, some comparative guilt, you know, around--there are folks out there who are on the front lines, who are essential workers, who have lost their jobs, and so "Maybe I'm not feeling great about what I'm doing or where I am, but, like, how could I complain?" Right? Like, "How can I explain when--maybe things aren't ideal, but I have so much," and so that's where I start to get--yeah, I get a little nervous about that, but I understand it, right? Like, you won't want to rock the boat right now when employment is so precarious. I think there is, you know, on this extreme end of the spectrum, a bit of grief happening, just--obviously black and brown folks are more likely to have people around them succumbing to this virus, falling ill, being unemployed themselves, and so, you know, folks are at work but breathing different losses that some of their counterparts may not be breathing as directly. And then there's backdrop of fear. Like, even if you feel secure in your job for now, this whole situation is obviously unprecedented. We don't know what will happen to the economy, we don't know what will happen to our companies. And again, the research shows that black and brown folks, and women, are the first to get furloughed, to get laid off, to your point, and we know in secure times black and brown folks are more heavily scrutinized, and I think folks who are still working feel a microscope that may or may not be on them, but it's impossible not to be vigilant about if you're gonna make it out of here with the job you went into this crisis with and if that job is actually the right job for you or if you're feeling beholden to, you know, a vulnerable time in your life. I think it's a very confusing time, but it all goes back to what we were talking about earlier, which is that it's just magnifying some of the sentiments that folks are always feeling. I think there's an overlay of, like, true uncertainty that is pressing, but I think folks are really trying to just get through the day, trying to keep the jobs they have, and, you know, trying not to encounter some of the secondary traumas that come when you lose that job, that security that you have in place. So I'm seeing a whole swirl of things, and the way they look to me basically is people are tired. They are exhausted. They are burning out and, you know, I think they're taking care of themselves a little less than they used to because it feels a little risky to do that.Zach: You segued really well into my next question about, like, black and brown employees and their experience, and it's funny because I was talking to a colleague about this, talking to a workplace colleague about, like, my own experiences, and I was telling him about, like, you know, "I've had some stresses because I've had some friends who almost fell victim to COVID-19," and, you know, they recovered, you know, but I also have acquaintances whose family members have passed, right? So you're right, like, what's on my mind and the stresses and the drama is--just what's on my mind is different throughout the day, or maybe it's just a little more real. Let me not say that other folks--'cause there have been white folks dying from the coronavirus too. So it's like, you know, not about trying to dismiss one to uplift the other. It's just like, "Okay, this is real for you, and it's even more real for me." And so I'm curious, like, you know, can we talk a little bit about what organizations can do during this time to at the very least reduce harm for their black and brown employees?Dr. Thomas: For sure. I think, you know, first I want to say 1. thank goodness for your friends who have recovered, and 2. I'm very sorry for the losses that are close to you, and to your point, I'm sorry for that for everybody. This is--you know, the backdrop to all of this is just... it's really hard to fathom honestly. It's hard for me to, like, wrap my head around the devastation this has caused, and it's just--it's so painful, and I'm sorry that everyone is going through this in some way, 'cause everyone is affected and is going to be in some way by the physical toll that this is taking on people. To that point, you know, I think there's a few things that orgs can do kind of from the top down. I think there's also things certainly that any individual colleague or manager can do for the folks around them, but I'll talk about this on a couple of levels. Sidebar, I always think of the Nick Jonas song "Levels" whenever I'm thinking about how to approach this work. Zach: Now, hold on, what is the Nick Jonas song--'cause see, the only song I know by Nick Jonas is that "I still get jealous--" You know what I'm saying? "[continues singing]."Dr. Thomas: It's about--I'm trying to think of how it goes. It's about "love has levels." "Levels, levels." I don't know the words.Zach: Come on, Erin. Come on. I hear you with the vocals.Dr. Thomas: I know. I gotta find it, but I like him, and I know he has a song called Levels, and I always think about it. It's like, "Oh, levels, take me higher--" I don't know. Levels take me higher. I don't know. It's a terrible song.Zach: It's a terrible song? Okay. Did he have a black choir in the background? [both laugh] Yo, when Nick Jonas came out there, boy, he came out there and they was like, "I still get jealoous." I was like, "What is going on? Jesus ain't got nothing to do with this." I mean, he's a jealous guy. Anyway, moving forward... [both laughing] Dr. Thomas: I'm gonna have to find it, I'm gonna have to sing it and just send you a little audio clip, 'cause I can't even remember the tune, 'cause it's not a memorable song. Love you, Nick.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Dr. Thomas: You know? From the top down, companies, and really I'm talking about leaders, people leaders, diversity leaders, can take care to do a few things. One is--and I saw this during the earlier days of people sheltering in place. I think it's leveled out maybe a bit, at least from my vantage point, but in the beginning there was a lot of corporate messaging--and I think you even see this still in commercials--of, you know, "We're all in this together," and on its face, cool, cool, cool. Like, right, you want to build camaraderie, you want to cohere folks around a shared sense of community, but if you beat that drum a little too long, especially within your company, I think it can kind of err to the side of being colorblind, right, and really minimizing the disproportionate strain that there actually is on employees of color and on black and brown folks. So I think striking that balance of certainly we're all in this together, and also there are distinct experiences that we know folks are grappling with. It's an important sort of dual approach to make sure that your folks who are black and brown know that they're seen, know that they're recognized for their unique experiences through this and the unique impacts that they're encountering. So that's one thing, just sort of take that multicultural lens to those company communications that you're sending out. I think another thing is, you know, wherever you can creating space for employees to uncover and share more about their specific experiences. So, you know, we did this back in April at Upwork. We partnered with Michelle Kim, who I know is a friend of the pod.Zach: Come on. What's up, Michelle J. Kim? Shout-out to Awaken Co. What's up? [imitating air horns]Dr. Thomas: [joins in, Zach laughs] She's awesome, and we sort of co-facilitated I think a 75-minute conversation with leaders of our Asian ERG(s)--and this is before the data about [?] were coming out with regards to black and brown folks, and the conversation was mostly around--in terms of the media--anti-Asian bias and discrimination and racism, so we seized on the timeliness of that conversation and built out, you know, a virtual forum for our employees to share what they were concerned about, what they were hearing in their day-to-day lives and interactions, and to scale out from that, from those stories to give more context to, you know, why are we seeing this, what is this. This is not unique to this moment in time. This is, you know, a pattern repeating, and really come from a place of urgency to educate our folks a little bit more about historical context and why it matters now and certainly what they can do to disrupt and call out bias in themselves and discriminations they're seeing externally. A third thing is certainly around mental health and benefits and resources to aid folks, you know, who are experiencing trauma and grief. And I don't think this just has to be if you've lost someone close to me. I think in general folks are really struggling obviously with anxiety and insomnia, and there's data coming in on that, and so making sure that your company has the right level and amount of bereavement and [leave?] policies, but also just coaching and support with your EAP if you have one or your [?] and getting them at least to a basic level [?] of providing that 1:1 support for folks and hopefully referring them out to medical providers if they need, you know, more professional coaching. And then the last thing, you know, is related to what you were saying about terminations and lay-offs and all that. Every company should be auditing the decisions they're making this time when it comes to furloughs and risks, making sure that they're looking at that through an equity lens, making sure that they're not just focusing on people's kind of positions in the company or tenure, because black and brown folks tend to sit lower in the org and tend to be earlier in their tenure, so really taking a performance-based approach to that analysis can be helpful in getting out of that sort of hamster wheel of, you know, first in first out when it comes to black and brown folks. So those are, you know, top-down, structural considerations that companies can be taking every day. I think on the ground, peers and managers can be doing some of what we've already role modeled in this conversation. Check in with people, my goodness. Just think about who you haven't spoken to in a while. Think about who you might normally pass at, you know, the water cooler or the coffee station, and if you haven't chatted with that person 1:1 in a minute, you know, Slack them, ping them, whatever you've got in terms of internal messaging systems, call them, pick up the phone and check in. Just see how people are doing, and make sure you create, you know, space to actually hear their answer and to actually respond. So, you know, as opposed to the normal "How's it going?" Like, really ask the question and really wait for the answer and be with that person with whatever they share, you know? I think it's really about those personal connections that we probably took for granted when we were back in an office setting, for those of us who were in offices, and that are harder to actualize now, right? Like, we're all home. We're all behind screens, and so there is no organic water cooler conversation. That means we have to make a little bit more effort to reach out to folks and to show them that we care about them, that we're connected to them and that we're a resource, or that the company has resources, for them whenever they need.Zach: I love it, I love it. Now, Erin, you know that we're about real talk in a corporate world like I said at the top of the show. For the executive leader to this and perhaps rolling their eyes or maybe, like, speed listening and being like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know this. Yeah, yeah, yeah," like, you know, just kind of being dismissive as to the gravity of this and why this matters. Why should folks have an inclusive and equitable lens during this time, and then what's the potential fallout in your mind if they don't?Dr. Thomas: I have so many reactions to this question. I think, first, if someone's rolling their eyes to this, which... yeah, could be true, I'll just, like, emphatically say that's not my key audience. Like, I'm just not--you know, I'm really not, and I'm just not. That's not my sweet spot. There were times earlier in my career where that was, where I found it fun to really push the business case for equity, business case for diversity. I am not interested in that anymore, and thankfully I'm in an org where I don't have to do that. Like, kudos to those of you who are doing that. Frankly, for me personally, that's ineffective, right? You know, people do not make decisions based on facts or data. So, you know, I could stand here and talk about the research that's been done. You know, Great Place to Work just did a study around [?], right, and they showed that those who focused on inclusion did better during the recession and saw more returns. So, like, I could share all those stats and all that, but it doesn't matter. Like, if you're rolling your eyes, if you are asking why or if, like, it's probably not gonna happen for you. Just call it, you know--because you can Google it, you can ask Siri, you can ask Jeeves, you can do whatever you want to do, but, like--Zach: [laughing] Not ask Jeeves.Dr. Thomas: [laughing] You can go back to Jeeves if you have to, but my point is that this is not how people make decisions. People make decisions emotionally. They do what they want to do and then they rationalize it later. That is a fact. Zach: That is a fact.Dr. Thomas: You know, it is. And that's science. [laughs] And so if you're not in any way emotionally inclined to care, nothing I say, no data point is gonna make you care. So I think that's one thing. Like, I am impatient and frankly, especially with, you know, decades of research that I think has really caught on in industry, we're just past the point of denying the value proposition of diversity. I think it wastes calories. I think it distracts from the meaningful question, which is, like, how we can go about it during this time or, you know, what we should be prioritizing. I think those are fair questions, but if you're, for whatever strange reason, listening to this podcast and rolling your eyes, like, I don't have time for it. I just don't. I don't. And already that was too much time explaining how I don't have time for it. So that's my quick reaction to that. [both laughing] I think those who are kind of, you know, struggling with how to go about this or where to maybe invest less or more, that's incredibly fair. I think that is incredibly challenging. So what I would say there is just--it goes back to what we talking about earlier. I mean, this is life and death, right? It does not get more real in terms of a call to action than this moment in time, and I think every leader should sit themselves down and critically examine what legacy they want to leave, you know? This is the time for companies to demonstrate what living values, living their values actually looks like. It's their time to pressure test, you know, different mantras that companies love to share around, you know, authentic selves at work, or "Bring your whole selves to work," because you saying--it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. You're saying those things... well, here's your moment. Here's your moment to [know?] what it really means, and that's true at the company level, it's true at that personal level. Hopefully you're inclined to want to dig more deeply into what actualizing on your commitments actually could mean right now, and I think that's the place to get really serious about where are the potential gaps between what you're saying and doing. And as we said earlier, you know, if you realize "Huh, even in these most dire circumstances, we're maybe not really ready to make the investment that we might need to actually move the needle or create the environment that our people need." Okay. That's a tough conclusion to come to, but okay.Zach: That's responsible though, right?Dr. Thomas: Right. Yeah. I mean, and then okay, well, then you have to communicate that back, but if you have been talking a game for a while and are realizing you want to step it up, that's amazing, and I think from there what you can be doing is really leveraging external leaders--I mean, there's a lot of information, tools that are free. You could certainly and should be always leveraging your internal employees or workers however they want to be leveraged to help you reveal your blind spots. But this is it. Like, this is the moment, and hopefully orgs will really step it up and leave a footprint that I think can last for generations. You know, what companies do now I think is going to reset how people see them in the public light, how people see them as an employer of choice or not, and so it's a critical kind of come to Jesus moment hopefully for leaders and orgs to double down or to de-emphasize the things that we've been talking about for a while.Zach: Yo. Man, I mean this has just been an incredible conversation. I would be remiss not to drop a Flex bomb right here, and then also some air horns, put 'em in right here. Okay, there we go. Erin, before we let you go--before Emory and I, excuse me, let you go, any parting words or shout-outs? I know you've been dropping wild gems this entire time, but I just want to give you one last--you know, where they can find you, what you're excited about with Upwork, anything. Give you time to plug.Dr. Thomas: Oh, goodness. Okay, I did not prepare for this. I have so many people to thank. I would say find me on Twitter. That's it. Please don't try to find me on LinkedIn. I don't respond on LinkedIn. Real talk. It's just too cluttered. So ErinLThomasPhD is my Twitter handle. I would say check out Upwork. I have been a lot of places. I have led diversity within two other organizations before now. I've been an expert consultant. I've seen a lot of what companies are doing, and I wouldn't be at Upwork if I weren't rabidly passionate about what we're doing and about all of the magic ingredients that attracted me to our company. So I'd love for folks to check us out. Come work with us. We're a great, amazing, purposeful company doing great work, with cool leaders like me, so come on through.Zach: I mean, this is the best ad I could imagine. [both laugh] All right, y'all, you know what it is. We're having real talk in a corporate world. I'm saying it, like, three times this time, but you know we amplify and center marginalized, underappreciated, underrepresented, undersupported, underestimated voices at work, and look, you can check us out anywhere, okay? Look, we're all over Barack Obama's internet. You just Google Living Corporate, okay? We're gonna pop up. We're there, okay? We're all over. Check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, @LivingCorporate on Instagram. Shoot, if you old school and you're like, "Nah, Zach. I gotta go in the browser and type in the domain like a true OG," then I'ma say, "Okay, cool," and I'ma tell you www.living-corporate.com, please say the dash, or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We got all of the Living Corporates except livingcorporate.com, so if you type in livingcorporate.com and Living Corporate does not pop up do not be mad at me, 'cause I told you already we don't got that one. We got all the other livingcorporates, or living-corporate.com--please say the dash, all right? You can also email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also DM us, okay? DMs are wide open. We are not afraid of the random DM. Just hit us up. We'll make sure we hit you back. If you have a listener letter, you know, you could submit it right there. We'll answer it on the show. We got a decent number. We try to get to a critical mass so we can answer a few, and then we kind of make that an episode. Just so y'all you know. It's, like, a peek behind the curtain. Until next time, y'all. This has been Zach, and you've been listenimg to Dr. Erin Thomas of Upwork. Me and Emory are gonna catch y'all later. Emory, you got anything to say? [Emory's silent] Nope? All right, y'all. Peace.