A11y Rules Podcast

Global Awareness Accessibility Day 2020! This is the third year I’m having a special episode for this event. I started with panel discussions for the day – and was planning on keeping that up. However, technical issues limited our ability to come together and have an actual discussion. So I got my guests to record… Continue Reading Global Accessibility Awareness Day 2020 Special

Joe Devon says the one thing people should remember about accessibility is that building great products is about listening to your user. And if you are not making your products accessible, you are not paying attention to your users. Thanks to Gatsby for being a sponsor of the show. Gatsby is a modern website framework… Continue Reading E097 – Interview with Joe Devon – Part 2

Joe Devon tells us that lot of accessibility is knowing the culture and different communities that view it differently. Thanks to Gatsby for being a sponsor of the show. Gatsby is a modern website framework that builds performance into every website by leveraging the latest web technologies. Create blazing fast, compelling apps and websites without… Continue Reading E096 – Interview with Joe Devon – Part 1

Devon Persing and I talk a little bit about burnout in the web accessibility industry. Thanks to Gatsby for being a sponsor of the show. Gatsby is a modern website framework that builds performance into every website by leveraging the latest web technologies. Create blazing fast, compelling apps and websites without needing to become a… Continue Reading E095 – Interview with Devon Persing – Part 2

Devon Persing tells us that the compliance model doesn’t capture the whole picture of accessibility. And it feels like a separate thing from design/dev work. Thanks to Gatsby for being a sponsor of the show. Gatsby is a modern website framework that builds performance into every website by leveraging the latest web technologies. Create blazing… Continue Reading E094 – Interview with Devon Persing – Part 1

Congressman Tony Coelho tells us that people with disabilities must have the right to fail. Without failure you can’t learn from the mistake. Without failure there’s no growth. Without a right to fail, your growth is stunted. Thanks to Gatsby for being a sponsor of the show. Gatsby is a modern website framework that builds… Continue Reading E093 – Interview with Tony Coelho – Part 2

Congressman Tony Coelho talks about his life with a disability, his journey of working for the People, and how he introduced the ADA. Thanks to Gatsby for being a sponsor of the show. Gatsby is a modern website framework that builds performance into every website by leveraging the latest web technologies. Create blazing fast, compelling… Continue Reading E092 – Interview with Tony Coelho – Part 1

Emily states: "Hardest part of the job is coming up with solutions. It's one thing to identify what's wrong, it's entirely another thing to give clients an alternative solution that's accessible to start with but also reasonable for them to implement." Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/ Thanks to Gatsby for being a sponsor of the show. Gatsby is a modern website framework that builds performance into every website by leveraging the latest web technologies. Create blazing fast, compelling apps and websites without needing to become a performance expert. Make sure you have a look at their site: https://www.gatsbyjs.org Transcript Nic: Welcome to the Accessibility Rules Podcast. This is episode 90. It's going to be a bit different because it's been so hot where I've been that I could not go without turning off the air, ac unit, which means I could not actually record without making airplane noises in the back so I've invited Christopher Schmitt, a colleague of mine and previous guest of the show to be the guest host. So, I'll leave that to them in a moment. I'm Nic Steenhout and I talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility. If you're interested in accessibility, hey, this show's for you. To get today's show notes or transcript, head out to https://a11yrules.com. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Twilio, connect the world with the leading platform for voice, SMS, and video at Twilio.com. I also want to thank Gatsby, a new sponsor of the show. Gatsby is a modern website framework that builds performance into every website by leveraging the latest web technologies. Create blazing fast and compelling websites without needing to become a performance expert. Christopher: Hello, everyone. My name is Christopher Schmitt. I am not Nic but I do welcome you to the Accessibility Rules podcast. Nic can't make it to the podcast this week, he is out traveling where it's so hot he can't actually have great audio. It's my understanding. So he asked me to guest host today. So, I'm really honored to do that. And, with us, today as a guest is Emily Lewis. Hello, Emily. Emily: Hi, Christopher. Christopher: Hey, great. You are also where it's really hot. Emily: It is. I'm in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I think we're going to hit 100 F today. Christopher: Oh, well, nice. Emily: But, I have air conditioning so… Christopher: Yeah, we have air … we have silent running air conditioning, which is… which I am grateful every day as I am living in Austin, Texas now, so… yeah. We are actually celebrating the 28th day of 100 degrees Fahrenheit  in the summer. Emily: Ah, good times. Climate change. Christopher: Yeah, definitely. I think we have a parade a few months ago out here. But, yeah. Let's just get started with you so… Welcome to the podcast, Emily. To get started just tell me one thing most people don't know about you. Emily: I don't know. I'm a pretty transparent person and I've been fairly public within the web community in the past 10 years or so, so I guess if they don't know it about me I don't want them to. So… Christopher: That's Ari. I must admit, we have known each other for a long time, right? Emily: Yeah, yeah. Christopher: Right, I'm just checking in to make sure we are right on that one. We've known each other for a while. Emily: Full disclosure. Christopher: Did you know when we first met? Because I'm terrible with this. Emily: I do. You reached out to me to ask me to do one of your online summits. Christopher:  Oh really? Emily: … and then I happened to be going to South by Southwest later that year and you and Ari took us to BBQ. We didn't know you and it was a long road through backwoods and I was with Jason and he and I were looking at each other like, “I hope these people are safe” Christopher: And it turned out we're not. We …. No, actually, Texas chainsaw massacre was filmed like 45 minutes from where downtown Austin is so… Emily: I believe it. Christopher: So we usually do a … if we have people from out of town we … Ari, my girlfriend and so we should do… we invite people to BBQ. Especially for South by Southwest. So it's not... South by Southwest is not the web geek mecha it used to be, right? Emily: No, not anymore. Christopher: So that's like… I don't know… 80,000 people descend upon Austin whereas when I first started going it was more like 4,000 people going. So, it's a little different. Different scale of economies there. Emily: Yeah Christopher: So...And so yeah, one of the things we do… and, you know, you did a great job at the summit and you just have a great personality on stage. You're so thorough and I just… you know… every time… because, before accessibility, before working with Nic and Knowbility we ran a conference, a web conference company and every time I could, you know, I thought you'd be a good fit. I'd try to get you involved in some way, in some projects like that. So, just because you're very thorough and you have great stage performance. I mean, it's not a performance, I don't know what it is but it's just you have a … going on stage you do a great job. So.. yeah. Emily: Ah, thank you. It doesn't feel that way inside. Christopher: No? Oh no, it definitely does. It's like, I kind of … I tried stand up comedy and just all the little things. I think everyone else is now because every comic ha a podcast now and they talk about the process a lot more than they could, like in the ‘90s and whatever. And so, it's just amazing how much little things they have to do to win over a crowd and all the things they have to think about when you do that too. So, it's kind of refreshing in a way when you think about it. We are just speaking at conferences isn't our … it' normal in our industry but for a lot of other industries it's not normal. Emily: Right Christopher: Because our industry change so much. So, like,  when I was first starting out about it, there was 2 ways you could tell people you know what you're doing. One, you could actually write books about it or you go to conferences about it and then somewhere along the way something called Blogs happened. So that was networking. Right...so enough about me and all. So I'm honored to guest host the podcast with you, actually. Emily: Thank you Christopher: So, yeah. There are many definitions of the definitions on web accessibility. How do you define it? Emily: For me, it's really simple and aligns with my new job with Knowbility. It's equitable access. Making it possible for anybody to access digital information, digital experiences, commerce communities. All of it. Just making it possible. Christopher: So is there a difference between equal access and equitable access? Emily: Well, I think equal access equality is based on the same for everybody and equitable is providing the means for people to have accessibility maybe based on different needs. I think that's accurate. It's not … equitable is not making it the same for everybody, it's about building experiences that different people can use different ways but they can still fundamentally achieve the same goal. Christopher: Okay, sure. Okay. And where does your role fall within the work of web accessibility? Emily: So, right now I've only just recently shifted my career to really, really focus on accessibility so right now I'm doing auditing and assessments of sites and making recommendations for improvements. I'm getting to do a little bit of client support and client training. And, most recently I got to do some usability studies which were just awesome. And, it hasn't shown up too much because I'm still new to the job but advocacy and education that I think that is going to be a big part. So, social media, community engagement, writing, presenting… Christopher: So you're really excited about usability testing that you did. What about it did you like? Emily: I've never had a chance to watch someone interact with a website with speech to text software or eye-tracking software or you know if you've ever done like a ...you're testing screen magnification on our browsers we just resize the text but there's actual screen magnification software that's very different and I got to watch someone use that on their phone which was mind-blowing. So, just seeing first hand how someone is using a site in a different way than I ever have or seen anybody. So, it was eye-opening Christopher: How did you become aware of web accessibility and it's importance? Emily: It really kind of was just a job. One of my first jobs in web development was for a US federal agency. The USDA which is focused on agriculture, and I was a webmaster for one of their conservation sites and the bulk of that job as a webmaster, which tells you how old I am, was keeping the site up to date with 508 standards. So USDA staff would update the site and edit it and do things and I would go behind them to make sure that what they had done met those accessibility standards. It was kind of like an ongoing or rolling audit job. Christopher: Nice Emily: Yeah, so I at the time didn't really have a complete appreciation for the accessibility part of it. Like, I knew it was about accessibility but I didn't have that kind of connection I was just talking about with the user experience. But, I liked … it was a set of rules and I was a new developer trying to figure out how to be a developer so a lot of rules made a lot of sense and made my job easier. So, yeah, but I was attracted to the standards aspect of it before I really understood the accessibility aspect. Christopher: And do you feel like there's a difference between usability and accessibility? Emily: Well, yeah. Something can be technically accessible and not really usable. So, I feel like… my partner Jason - my boyfriend, they don't make a word for people who are in their mid 40's and aren't married but he does usability work for the government but accessibility is a part of it. So, fundamentally things have to meet accessibility and then on top of that, it goes through usability testing. So I guess that accessibility could be viewed as a part of usability. Christopher: Yeah I always have a tough definition there. There's a definition about it that separates usability from accessibility but when I started out it was always tough to separate the two as two distinct items. Because, I felt like if it's not accessible it's not usable, right? You can't have a good user experience if it's not accessible. It was always just like… it still is the barrier of what the difference is between those two. Emily: I honestly feel like our industry is still defining it. I mean, I see it with Jason all the time with his work and he works with the government which are really large projects with lots and lots of people and they're still trying to define this stuff. So, yeah, I think it's ongoing. It's sort of evolving as we understand this stuff. Christopher: Right, and our industry changes so fast, right? Emily: Oh my god yes. Christopher: 5 years ago we were not even talking about tablets. Like, you know. Emily: Yeah, and there's going to be so much more. I mean, as we are seeing now people having these … Echos and … I don't know, I don't have them in my house but these voice-activated devices and, you know, the more that stuff evolves the more our role, our jobs and the aspects of accessibility and usability are going to change too. It's hard to challenge it. Christopher: Yeah, it is. The conventional UIs, I mean with Echos, yeah, That's a bit of trouble, yeah. So, I do have them in my house So, um… Emily: They're watching you. Christopher: Yeah, I call them peeping Toms. That's what I call them. So… but, it is kind of weird but it's basically how much I hate light switches. And so that's why. I just like walking into a room and like, alright, turn it on and then sometimes I get a cold or the flu and you know, your throats sore or whatever and you're like “Man, I wish I had a light switch right now!” Emily: So that would be the thing that most people don't know about you. Your hatred of light switches. But now they do. Christopher: Now they do, yeah. I don't know what they know or don't already. Just, yeah, so...alright. What barriers did you or are you facing in terms of implementing accessibility? And how are you getting over them? Emily: Well, I mean, in my job now that I'm focused on accessibility it's a little different than when I ran an agency and accessibility was just … it really wasn't a priority for my job. So, today I feel like the hardest part of my job is coming up with solutions for some of the sites and interfaces that we work with because it's one thing to identify what's wrong. It's totally a different thing to give them alternatives solutions that's accessible to start with but also pretty reasonable for them to implement and on some level I can't help still being a client. You know, having worked with clients for so long. Like, you still have to support their overall design in business school. Christopher: Right Emily: I think that's incredibly hard. Christopher: Yeah I mean, it's .. it was like, Friday, I left work and I was trying to figure out in the back of my head … we tabulate what we do each day but they're kind of broad strokes. We don't have to do like a timesheet like what we do every hour and so I was trying to figure out where did my afternoon go. And, part of it, I realized on my way home I was like, “Oh yeah, I had to deconstruct this bad code example the client had used and then try to reformulate it into an accessible standards-based solution” and it took forever. Emily: Yup Christopher: Just to do that, right? And, it was a total time sink. Emily: Yup Christopher: Not like… I mean, it was good. It was a good challenge to do it but it still takes a long time to do that if it's not something easy code. It's amazing. And, I said this sarcastically last week. I was just impressed with the ability of the developers to avoid Semantic HTML. Emily: Yeah, I mean… Christopher: Yeah Emily: I was working on that same system with you and it was just, every day it was just an “Oh, that never would have occurred to me to do that.” Christopher: Yeah. Exactly. It was kind of crazy. But, yeah, I think that's also kind of our … like what we do is a benefit too. It's like we actually give alternatives to clients. I guess that's what we … that's kind of neat too. Emily: Yeah and I also like… you know we work with some really, really smart people who have a lot of experience and so, you know, watching what they do. How they make suggestions and solutions, really helps me expand what I might have considered in the first place, as a way to make a problem access… you know, solve it and make it accessible. So, yeah. I feel really lucky we have a lot of people who have so much more experience than I do. Christopher: What is your favorite word? Emily: Well, I don't know if this is like a PG-13 podcast so Nic can … I'll give you two options for Nic to choose from, but Christopher, you know this. Fuck is probably my favorite word. But, for the PG-13 listeners - ice cream. Ice cream makes me so happy. If someone says ice cream I'm instantly looking forward to it. Christopher: Oh man, you are going to enjoy Access-U, which is the conference that Knowbility puts on. It's for practical training purposes in accessibility. Ah, for the last two years they've brought an ice cream truck to the event. So, you will… Hopefully I made you happy and looking forward to May already. Emily: Alright now I'm like - I've got to get some ice cream today. Christopher: So, yeah. So like, I feel bad because Nic asked me this question and I just… I whiffed at it and so I didn't answer the question. And so, now that I have a second chance of sorts. If you don't mind me saying what my word is? Emily: Oh yeah, do it. Christopher: It's moist. Emily: Oh, you like that word? Christopher: Yeah, that's exactly why I like that word. Because everyone hates it. So, I feel like it says what it is in a way. It's like… it's kind of gross. Yeah. Emily: I like it for cake. Anything else just makes me think of humidity and discomfort. Christopher: Yeah, well I grew up in Florida. So I feel… Emily: Yeah, you love that, right? Christopher: Yeah, I just can't wait. Yeah. The move from Florida to Ohio which didn't happen in the end… I was just like, “What the heck. What's going on over here?” Christopher: What was your greatest achievement in terms of web accessibility? Emily: I really don't feel like I've achieved it yet. I mean, I've been doing front-end development, CMS development, project management for digital products for like 23 years or something like that and I've always built with standards of accessibility in mind but it's never… it's never been the focus. I've only just done that shift a few months ago so I haven't had a chance to do anything great. Christopher: I see ...I see some of your issue reports. I think you've done some great issue reports. Emily: You know, I will say that I used to have a podcast myself and it started, I guess about 8 or 9 years ago which was kind of early and we had transcripts right from the beginning. That was really important to me. Christopher: Yeah Emily: I don't know if that's a great achievement but it was a commitment that I felt was important. Christopher: Yeah, just think about how many podcasts there are that don't have transcripts. Emily: I don't understand that. Christopher: Yeah Emily: I really don't understand that. Christopher: Yeah, I felt bad because I don't have transcripts for my own podcasts that I used to run and I just … there was all this content that was just waiting to be discovered and all this content that's not been discovered. I mean, even though they have video of a podcast that they turn into audio and they don't have a transcript for it. Emily: Mmhmm, well I mean, it's an accessibility issue. But, there's business reasons for it. I mean, Google eats that up. Your podcast gets a tonne more exposure. I mean, our podcast was getting high… high up in the Google search results for almost all of our web topics. Because we had lots and lots of keywords. Christopher: Yeah. Emily: And also helps you consume the content in a different way. Like, maybe you can't listen to it and you want to scan the transcript for saline information. It just makes sense. Christopher: Yeah, I think so. Okay, cool. Well, that's awesome. Well, that's a good place for us to wrap up for now. But, thanks for being on the Accessibility Rules podcast. Emily: Thanks for having me. Christopher:  Okay, awesome. Until next time. Nic: Thanks for listening. Quick reminder, the transcript for this and all other shows are available on the show's website at https://a11yrules.com Big shoutout to my sponsors and my patrons. Without your support, I couldn't not continue to do the show. Do visit patreon.com/steenhout if you want to support the accessibility rules podcast. Thank you.

Emily Lewis said: Accessibility is not about screen readers or keyboard navigation or code. It’s about people. And them being able to access information and resources, community… all of it Thanks to Gatsby for being a sponsor of the show. Gatsby is a modern website framework that builds performance into every website by leveraging the… Continue Reading E091- Interview with Emily Lewis – Part 2

About one thing everyone knows about accessibility… Amberley says: “I think everyone knows when something is not acceptable to them” Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/ Thanks to Gatsby for being a… Continue Reading E089 – Interview with Amberley Romo – Part 2

Amberley defines web accessibility as “building for the web in ways that ensure it’s usable by everyone. There aren’t barriers to use for anyone. So, I would say it’s about digital equal access, kind of along the same lines as physical equal access. So, just putting people at the center of building for the web.”… Continue Reading E088 – Interview with Amberley Romo – Part 1

Christopher says that for someone who likes Design so much, he didn’t realize how important good color contrast was, and how bad color contrast issues are. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/… Continue Reading E086 – Interview with Christopher Schmitt – Part 1

Jessica suggests that accessibility is a competitive advantage. The more people can use your product, the more likely they are to spend money on it. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/ Transcript… Continue Reading E085 – Interview with Jessica Ivins – Part 2

Jessica and I ponder whether low-literacy could be considered a disability, and regardless of the answer, that factor needs to be taken into account when designing sites and content. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity… Continue Reading E084 – Interview with Jessica Ivins – Part 1

Stephanie Walter says there’s a lot of things she thought everybody knew about accessibility that actually not a lot of people knew. So, she thinks in general people know that somewhere on the internet some people are blind. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at:… Continue Reading E083 – Interview with Stephanie Walter – Part 2

Stephanie Walter tells us that designers should provide a roadmap to their design for the developer, but in many projects, there just isn’t time to do that. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets:… Continue Reading E082 – Interview with Stephanie Walter – Part 1

To highlight Global Awareness Accessibility Day, I had a wonderful panel discussion with four people involved in accessibility: Courey Elliott, Dennis Lembrée, Shannon Finnegan, and Dan O’Mahony Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets:… Continue Reading Global Accessibility Awareness Day 2019 Special Episode

Damien tells us “Later does not exist in our industry. Don’t push something without accessibility now. Because you will NOT go back and fix it later” Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/… Continue Reading E081 – Interview with Damien Senger – Part 2

In which Damien Senger tells us “Universal design is the answer, more than accessibility. Because people are on a spectrum.” Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/ Transcript Nic: Welcome to the Accessibility… Continue Reading E080 – Interview with Damien Senger – Part 1

In which Liz Jackson tells us she wishes people viewed accessibility as an opportunity to engage, rather than a legal compliance thing. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/ Transcript Transcript Nic:    Welcome to the accessibility rules podcast. This is episode 79. I'm Nic Steenhout, and I talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility. If you're interested in accessibility hey, this shows for you. To get today's show notes or transcript head out to https://a11yrules.com. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Twilio connect the world with the leading platform for voice, SMS, and video at Twilio.com. In this episode, I'm continuing my conversation with Liz Jackson. Welcome back, Liz. Liz:    Thanks, again for having me. Nic:    Thank you. So, the last show was really great. We talked about quite a few things that are not necessarily the usual topics of this podcast, including disability culture friction and nothing about us without us, so that's been really powerful stuff. We finished last week on a great positive thought of “Let's make this fun.” Let's flip that a little bit and ask you, Liz… What's your greatest frustration about accessibility? Liz:    My greatest frustration with accessibility is I think the fact that people view it as a box to be checked. That there's a minimum amount that you need to do and that I think is fundamentally lacking in creativity. I'm not saying that that's what accessibility is. I'm saying that that is the perception of what it is. I think people view it a lot in terms of legal compliance. And I just… I wish we could sort of view it instead as an opportunity to engage. And I'm going to pause for a second because… you'll hear why. Nic:    You were saying we should view accessibility as an opportunity to engage rather than as a compliance thing. Liz:    Yeah, I think right now the way accessibility is being done is oftentimes at the exclusion of actual disabled people. I oftentimes use the example… I have sort of an obsession with National ADAPT, and so I oftentimes use the example of; Okay, so how did… What happened with that original gang of 19 and bus lifts? And this is really the thing that I saw. So, what happened was, in the early 1970s, right, this is the first time in history that disabled people were actually escaping institutions, right? So out in society, they looked really radical. And they wanted something very radical. The wanted access. They wanted accessibility, and they wanted it in the form of bus lifts on busses. And they went about it in a radical way. They parked their bodies in front of buses and intersections in Denver, and they protested for access. And, at the time society was probably incredibly frightened of these bodies that they hadn't previously experienced. But, if you look at sort of what happened in the years after what you see is that suddenly people stopped perceiving those bodies as being so radical. They became accustomed to seeing disabled people out in society, so, they became less radical, and their ideas became less radical. People started thinking, “Yeah, access is a human right. Buses should come with bus lifts.” And, ultimately buses did start coming with bus lifts and this idea of buses on buses, it was so potent that in the 90s when the  ADA was written buses were written into the ADA. And, I think for me, it is. It's very easy to look at this and sort of view it as a success, but I actually see something a little bit different which is that the very moment that bus lifts were written into the ADA, at least it feels to me, that the national adapt and the people who fought so valiantly for it were no longer needed in the thing that they advocated for. And so, I think in this work that we're doing I wonder how often we are actually inadvertently advocating for our own exclusion by advocating for our own inclusion. And so, for me, the question is how is it that in web access and in these various things that we're fighting for, how is it that we can sustainably advocate to participate. And so for me, it's that mantra. It's design with disability. It's nothing about us without us. How is it that we can ensure that the things that we fight radically for don't turn into things that are empathetically done for us? Nic:    So, I often say that one of my ultimate goals is to do such a good job as to put myself out of a job. So, you know, do enough advocacy and do enough education and do enough work in the accessibility field that this kind of work would not be required anymore. Because, everything would be accessible. Everything would be done with an inclusive mindset which kind of closes the circle, because if you're starting to think of a culture of inclusion, you have to think about getting people with disabilities involved. So, even if I do manage to put myself out of a job as an accessibility specialist I think that the job will be truly, properly done when even though I may not be an accessibility specialist anymore I would still be included in the discussion and in the design phase, and everything to make sure that people with disabilities are part and parcel with the process. Not just an afterthought, or, not just something we do for them. Liz:    Yeah, I think… I think that even in this idea of putting… wanting to put yourself out of business… I think there's a part of me that worries that… are we too in the frame of mind of problems that need to be solved and are we separating culture from access too much? I think I'm someone… I view you as someone who I think is deeply creative and I don't think for a creative person the work ever stops. Nic:    Totally. Liz:    And so for me, the question is, okay, well, say on this very logistical side, yeah you do put yourself out of business. Okay, so then the question becomes “What's next?” Nic:    Absolutely. What's next. Product design, which you've been quite involved with… How can your experience in product design benefit people involved with web accessibility? What lesson could you share from learning about product design that web accessibility people can implement? Think about? Liz:    When there does seem to be a product that's framed around creating accessor a product that's inclusive of disabled people, when it's put out into the world it's oftentimes framed through the lens of empathy. And, I think that there are other ways that we can perceive the works in this space. We don't always have to view disability through this empathetic lens. And, so, I actually have been spending the last couple of years pursuing my own product. More… it's a little bit less about the product, and it's a little bit more about a statement of why… what this work can sound like in terms of tone. And, so the story behind the product is… a couple of years ago I was at South by Southwest, and there were some major accessibility problems. And, it ended up leading me to get into this contentious back and forth with the head of South by Southwest, this guy named [Hugh Forest? 08:27]. And, in one of the phone calls, I basically told him I was going to create a product that was going to basically shed light on the accessibility issues of South by, and to my surprise he was really supportive of it. I had some people who were supportive all along, and I ended up going back to South by this year with an app. It's really my answer to craptions. So a craption is basically those pesky errors that happen in automated captions. I call it thisten, so it's basically ‘this' and ‘listen,' for me, I sort of see it as the physical act of listening. And, you know, I think this is one of the conversations we've been having about the product. Typically when somebody looks at this product, they're going to say, okay, well this is definitely something that benefits somebody who is hard of hearing or deaf. But, I'm saying no. We've got to flip this. This is a product that can not succeed without a massive untapped pool of deaf and hard of hearing talent. And, I think to myself - okay, so then people are going to frame this product as something that solves a problem. And what is the problem that it solves? Well, traditionally I think that society would say this solves the problem, almost, of deaf people. But, that for me is not the problem. For me, the problem is this solves the problem of conferences and events failing to take into account accessibility. And so, I think, every step of the way I'm trying to shift the way our objects and our products are positioned in society and I'm just trying to make sure people fully understand what is it that we are actually solving for. I'm not solving for a deaf person. If I did, I'm sure a deaf person would tell me to go F myself. They don't need me. What I'm solving for is a fundamental, societal problematic lack of access in some of the most influential spaces in the world. Nic:    What do you think the number one reason is that most people fail to take accessibility into account or fail to succeed with implementing accessibility? Liz:    This has really been a passion point for me. And, it's one of the reasons why now I'm trying really hard too. In design schools wherever there is a class that teaches accessibility, I'm also trying to implement a disabilities course work alongside it. Because I think people are learning the ‘how' without the ‘why' and it's… I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding there in what it does, what it does in the long run, what it does in the short term, who it impacts and how it shifts our lives in small but very profound ways. And, it's learning about why do we think about the way we do about x or y. And, I think this is the thing. It's like I love disability. This is the passion of my life, and I think… I look at design, and I see… a designer might, at a very young age, realize ‘I have a knack for this,' but they don't think that they can just design. They know ‘okay, I've got a knack for this. I've got to go to school. I've got to educate myself,' and then they usually encounter me as they're continuing their education in a conference or educational setting. This is a life-long commitment, and yet these are the very people who they sort of turn to disability, and they think they just know. And, I think they think they know because they've been taught to feel a certain way about it, whether it's inspirational or empathetic or whatever the case may be. Whatever these sort of societal narratives are. And so, for me, it's about, well, how do we as disabled people how do we intervene in that sort of expectation of ‘we just know?' How do we intervene and say, ‘No, disability is a creative process.' It is something that you can be passionate about, you can love, and you can commit to. And, you can have ongoing education, and I think the majority of designers don't even know disability studies exist as a field. And so, for me, if you can teach people that this is not just a portfolio or a brand enhancer but rather this is something you can endeavor in and be passionate about and delight in… I think we would have a much easier time. And, I think the thing that sells it short is this frame that we've historically done of just framing something as: simple problem, simple solution. If we could break away from that and delve into the complexity, I think people would get really wrapped up in it. Nic:    There's been a lot on Twitter, quite a few threads on unpopular tech opinions. Would you have an unpopular accessibility/disability opinion to share? Something maybe controversial or something that you think you really believe in but other people might not necessarily agree with. Liz:    Yeah. Oh, do I have one or do you say you have one? Nic:    No, do you have one? Liz:     I suppose I think my thinking about wanting to incorporate disability studies into the accessibility conversation. I think… I don't think it's unpopular in that people don't like it. I think more often than not people feel very drawn to it and can almost sort of… sort of… once its...I'm unable to articulate it, they feel a bit of relief. Like, yeah, I think that's sort of the missing piece. But I think it is unpopular in the fact that we didn't previously consider it. And, so, maybe it's something that just needs to gain a little bit of traction. But, I suppose I fundamentally believe that if I do my… perform the role that I set out to do, which is incorporating a culture into the work that you're doing. I fundamentally believe that I will make your work easier for you to do.  And, so, for me, I think even though I'm not tech savvy, I can barely find my way through the internet. The thing that I'm trying to show is a commitment to a handful of people. And, so, who are those people? I think those people are allies. People who are doing this work that makes the internet accessible. I think I'm also trying to amplify the work of academics, the people who are building the theory and doing the work that has long existed inside of paywalls, how is it that we can bring that out into the mainstream? And, so, if I say sort of I'm trying to honor the friction of my disability I also feel like I'm trying to honor all of those who came before me and have been doing this work much longer than I have, and who are much more adept at doing the physical things that I just don't have the capabilities of doing. I think if anything I like to look and see all of our roles in this and figure out, ‘how is it that I can take a little of the burden from this person so they can thrive better?' Because that's what… I think the allies have been doing, that's what the academics have been doing for me and for others as well. And so it's like, “Okay, how do we sort of complete this circle?” Nic:    How do we? Indeed. My… one of the thinking I have around accessibility itself and one of my frustration is that so many designers and web designers and web developers today don't even know that it exists let alone know about alt text, and I've only been advocating for alt text since the mid 1990s. So, it's not a new topic for me and yet kids coming out of a computer science course should know the basics. They don't even know the basics exist in terms of accessibility, and I want to see that topic taught in computer science and design and development courses, boot camps… I want at least some people to have a basic understanding. And, in some ways it seems like what you're talking about doing is post-graduate work rather than entry level, 101, 100 level courses. So, I'm not sure how to reconcile what you're talking about,which I think is mission critical, but also, make sure that people at least have a basic understanding and awareness of. Liz:    Yeah, I think… and I think maybe I might see this in a different way, I think … it's so easy to get caught up in language in disability, I think… and there's really 2 specific places I see this where I feel very protective of the language and that is the word mobility and the word accessibility. If you look at the word mobility, for me it means wheelchairs and access and all those different things but I sort of feel like now the word mobility is evolving to sort of mean autonomous vehicles and this other thing that exists outside of disability, and so as this word is being brought in to mean so much more and so many more things suddenly the things that I think it fundamentally means to me become a small piece of that. And so, say you want to teach the basics of accessibility as initial course work in… maybe even in high school or in a first-year design school. The thing that I find myself fearful of is that I feel like the word accessibility has become… because it has become this sort of trendy, increasingly trendy word, I feel like it's broadening to mean so many things that even to sort of teach the basics of accessibility I worry that's going to sort of be taken away. Does that make sense? Nic:     Yes. That makes sense. So how do we… how do we teach these topics that are mission critical if we want an accessible web? A web usable by all regardless of disability, without diluting the word accessibility? Liz:    And that's… I think that's the thing that I'm really grappling with right now. ‘Coz it's not just mobility, it's not just accessibility there's other words too, they're just not coming to mind at the moment. But, I think, I remember at some point in my work I think, “Well, what is disability?” Disability fundamentally is the absence of a trend, and I remember I wanted to create this thing called the absence of trend report where we sort of just report on things that exist. Like, regardless of trend. I think I do find myself a little bit fearful that if accessibility does become a trend then that means there's an end to it. And, then people are going to lose interest and then they'll kind of fall into another space. And so, for me, there's this way in which I want to just sort of pull back and be like, no, this is… this exists regardless of whatever feelings we may be putting on to it, whatever momentum and whatever CEO is spousing it's virtues. It exists regardless of that. And, so, how do we take ownership of it and say… I don't want to say it's small because it's big, it's everything, but there's basics. There are fundamentals that the people who are spousing their virtues probably don't even know. And I think I find that scary and I want to figure out how do we protect it. Nic:    Certainly something to think about. I'm grappling with that as well. So, hopefully, you'll wake up one morning and go “Ah ha! I have the answer” and [crosstalk 22:03] able to share that. Liz:    Yeah, I hope so. I think it's important. You know, it's not something I take lightly. And I can't imagine you take lightly either. Nic:    No, no I don't. Liz, let's wrap this up with a final question for you. What's the one thing people should remember about accessibility? Let's focus that specifically. What should people remember about web accessibility? Liz:    For me, the one thing that people should know about web accessibility is it's a learning process. We may not realize that we need it until we need it. We may not we realize that it's there until our failure has left somebody out. We may start to hear the word and not necessarily know what it means and it's okay to not know and it's okay to have been naive. But, once you know and once you are aware that this is something that exists it is something that I believe we have a responsibility to better understand. Especially if we're creating things that go out into the world. And so, for me, I… if your design process is a learning process, if everything that you do is built upon everything you've done before then I hope that you will treat web accessibility the same way. I'm no better or worse than the next person. My initial website, seven years ago, was wildly inaccessible and yet now it has become a predominant focus of my work. And the same can be for you and you can feel really empowered in it. Nic:    Thank you, Liz. That was a really good thought to finish on. Liz:    Thank you. Nic:    Liz Jackson, thank you and go out there and continue doing the good work you're doing. Thank you for that. Liz:    You too. You too. You're doing some pretty profound stuff and I'm honored to be on your podcast. Nic:    Thank you. Liz:    Thank you. Nic:    Thanks for listening. Quick reminder, the transcript for this and all other shows are available on the show's website at https://a11yrules.com Big shoutout to my sponsors and my patrons. Without your support, I couldn't not continue to do the show. Do visit patreon.com/steenhout if you want to support the accessibility rules podcast. Thank you.

Liz Jackson says it’s not enough to fix accessibility, people with disabilities must be included. She says: “I think somebody thinks that if they just smooth something out and they make it usable that we won’t have feelings about it. But, we are a people that probably hungers for choice, right? Like, we want to… Continue Reading E078 – Interview with Liz Jackson – Part 1

Amy Carney tells us accessibility is not just a checklist of standards but that we really are building experience for people and allowing them to open up opportunities. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event… Continue Reading E77 – Interview with Amy Carney – Part 2

Amy Carney tells us that accessibility “comes down to a design perspective. We’re designing to include people, specifically people with disabilities. And that is based on enabling people with disabilities to access content and web applications online.” Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their… Continue Reading E76 – Interview with Amy Carney – Part 1

Alli says that getting the right people in the same room at the start of a project is very difficult and can impede accessibility. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/ Transcript Nic:   … Continue Reading E75 – Interview with Alli Berry – Part 2

Alli tells us how experiencing lack of accessibility for a classmate of hers in the built environment helped her understand the importance of accessibility on the web. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets:… Continue Reading E74 – Interview with Alli Berry – Part 1

Jen tells us to start accessibility today, to start with one thing. Then to do one more thing, and then one more. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/ Transcript Nic:    Welcome to… Continue Reading E73 – Interview with Jen Luker – Part 2

Jen Luker tells us, among other things, that with thoroughness comes confusion – if you’re trying to learn all of WCAG and ARIA at once, you’ll get overwhelmed Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event… Continue Reading E72 – Interview with Jen Luker – Part 1

Chris tells us “the biggest challenge that [the accessibility community is] going to have, and it currently stands now, is the never-ending library framework” Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/ Transcript Nic:   … Continue Reading E71 – Interview with Chris DeMars – Part 2

Chris is a front-end developer based in Detroit, MI. He tells us, among other things, that learning about accessibility is an ongoing process. Transcript Nic:    Welcome to the Accessibility Rules Podcast. This is episode 70. I’m Nic Steenhout and I talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility. If you’re interested… Continue Reading E70 – Interview with Chris DeMars – Part 1

In which Ire tells us that she thinks convincing framework developers to implement accessibility will have more impact than trying to change individual developers’ minds. Transcript Nic: Welcome to the a11y Rules podcast. This is episode 69. I am Nic Steenhout, and I talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility.… Continue Reading E69 – Interview with Ire Aderinokun – Part 2

In the first part of my interview, Ire Aderinokun tells us that accessibility will not take you a massive effort if you’re using HTML correctly. Ire is a front-end developer and user interface designer. She currently is working on a startup called Buy Coins. Transcript Nic: Welcome to the A11y Rules podcast. This is episode… Continue Reading E68 – Interview with Ire Aderinokun – Part 1

Continuing my chat with Beth. We discuss, among other things, accessibility as a coding challenge vs having to meet tight deadlines – and how sometimes developers chose to do things the way they know to meet these deadlines. Transcript Nic: Welcome to the A11y Rules podcast. This is episode 67. I’m Nic Steenhout and I… Continue Reading E67 – Interview with Beth Raduenzel – Part 2

Beth is an accessibility specialist and a UX interaction designer. She was part of an award winning team at United. She compares acceptance of the need for accessibility as the 5 stages of grief. Transcript Nic: Welcome to the A11y Rules Podcast. This is episode 66. I’m Nic Steenhout, and I talk with people involved… Continue Reading E66 – Interview with Beth Raduenzel – Part 1

Marcy tells us that her greatest frustration is that for all of the energy that we put into this all the time it feels like we’re stagnant in terms of accessibility actually getting done. And that it’s hard not to get derailed by that. Transcript Nic:    Welcome to the Accessibility Rules Podcast. This is episode… Continue Reading E65 – Interview with Marcy Sutton – Part 2

Marcy tells us that it’s important for folks in the accessibility community to listen to developers’ needs. She also states that we ought to be more positive, and to stop making people feel bad about accessibility! Transcript Nic:    Welcome to the Accessibility Rules Podcast. This is episode 64. I’m Nic Steenhout and I talk with… Continue Reading E64 – Interview with Marcy Sutton – Part 1

Eric tells us accessibility shouldn’t be just technical curiosity. It’s about people. Transcript Nic: Welcome to the Accessibility Rules podcast. This is Episode 63. I’m Nic Steenhout and I talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility. If you’re interested in accessibility, hey! This show is for you. To get today’s… Continue Reading E63 – Interview with Eric Bailey – Part 2

Eric tells us, among other things, that relationship building is a good way to get passed the hostility some people have towards accessibility. Transcript Nic: Welcome to the A11y Rules Podcast. You’re listening to episode 62. I’m Nic Steenhout, and I talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility. If you’re… Continue Reading E62 – Interview with Eric Bailey – Part 1

Alex is a developer who has experienced the difference between baking in accessibility from the start compared to trying to retrofit accessibility into an existing project – which leads to a lot of trial and error and wasted time. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look… Continue Reading E61 – Interview with Alex Brenon

Adrienne McDonnell is a front end developer at Elsevier. She says that knowing how to navigate a site with the keyboard is a fundational skill that all developers should know. She also reflects on the fact that all the accessibility specifications are very dense and can be overwhelming for people new to accessibility. Thanks to… Continue Reading E60 – Interview with Adrienne McDonnell

Transcript Nic: Welcome to the A11y Rules podcast. I’m Nic Steenhout and this is a special episode for the 2018 International podcast day. I normally talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility. But today, I find it important to talk about podcast accessibility. There are a lot of podcasts out… Continue Reading 2018 International Podcast Day Special

John Tubbs is an educator working for about thirty years in the area of high tech, digital education, online learning. He discusses accessibility and accomodations for students with disabilities – a topic we don’t hear enough about. He points out that his team is working towards universal accessible documents that can later be customized, rather… Continue Reading E59 – Interview with John Tubbs

Jen says that many of the needs for accessibility aren’t that hard to accommodate by developers and designers! I couldn’t agree more. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/ Transcript Nic:    Welcome to… Continue Reading E58 – Interview with Jen Simmons – Part 2

I love what Jen had to say about accessibility! She said, among other things: “accessibility is about the recognition that every human isn’t identical to every other human.” Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event… Continue Reading E57 – Interview with Jen Simmons – Part 1

Becky talks about accessibility needing to be in the curriculum for all computer science courses – and I couldn’t agree more! Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/ Transcript Nic:    Welcome to the… Continue Reading E56 – Interview with Becky Gibson – Part 2

In this episode, Becky talks to us about how changes in technology has changed her perception of accessibility. She also tells us how she came to be so passionate about accessibility! Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube:… Continue Reading E55 – Interview with Becky Gibson – Part 1

“It’s a frustration of mine that too often when somebody asks me a question about accessibility, the only answer I can really give if I want to be succinct is, “It depends”.” Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on… Continue Reading E54 – Interview with Nic Steenhout – Part 2

In a role reversal, for the first episode of the second year of the show – I’m the one being interviewed

Eric says that accessibility “is a foundational principle of the web. Like literally the web is built on accessibility. The original specs don’t necessarily call it that, but that’s an organizing principle of the web. And to try to ignore it or overcome it is a lot like trying to paddle upstream”. Thanks to Twilio… Continue Reading E52 – Interview with Eric Meyer – Part 2

Eric talks about accessibility, of course, and semantics, and frameworks, and more! The web prioritises ubiquity over consistency and a lot of these– there have been a lot of attempts to prioritise consistency over ubiquity. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog… Continue Reading E51 – Interview with Eric Meyer – Part 1