Podcasts about nic steenhout

Accessibility is a topic which is getting much more attention these days, and rightly so. It's important for websites because it ensures that everyone, including people with disabilities and impairments in areas such as sight, hearing, motor difficulties, or cognitive limitations, can effectively use and engage with the website content. By making your WordPress websites more accessible, you're creating a more inclusive and welcoming online experience for all users, regardless of their abilities or disabilities. But how might you do that, and what are you looking for to improve the accessibility of the site that you're working on now? Nic Steenhout is an expert in this area and he's here to go through some things that need your attention right now.

Kelsey says: "[If] your podcast has transcripts. So I can go through and actually read the podcast, I can get the content, I can understand what's going on. And I don't have to try to concentrate really hard to try to understand the podcast. " Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairment, and what barriers they encounter on the web. Just a reminder that the transcript for this episode and all other episodes are available at the time of the publication on the website at a11yrules.com. I want to thank Fable for sponsoring this episode. Fable is a leading accessibility platform powered by disabled people. Fable moves organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible and accessible user experiences. And they do that through product testing and custom courses. You can learn more about how fable can work for your team at https://makeitfable.com/nic. Today I'm talking with Kelsey Byers. Hey, Kelsey, how are you? Kelsey Doing pretty well, thanks, Nic. How about yourself? Nic I'm doing good. I'm glad we connect. We've been speaking on Slack mostly for for a number of years. And we get to connect and I get to grill you with my with my usual questions. Kelsey Yeah. Nic So let's let's ask you what's your disability or your impairment? Kelsey For sure. So I'm actually multiplate disabled. That's the words that I use to describe my disability. Most of them come from Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, which is a genetic condition that makes my joints loose and wobbly and causes pain. I've also got ADHD and I'm also autistic. And there's a variety of other stuff in the background. Nic What's the interaction between all these is there? Is there anything that you know, when I don't know if you have a joints getting particularly more loose? Is that going to have an impact on how ADHD is playing with you? Or is it pretty much each in their own silos? Kelsey That's actually a really great question. So there is a lot of research that shows that people with ADHD are more likely to be hyper mobile. Some of them to the extent that they are diagnosed with Ehlers dauntless. And also autism is more common in Ehlers Danlos. So we think they're definitely related. But I don't think people have built figured out like the biological mechanisms behind that. Nic Fair enough. So what what impairment, what condition has the most impact for you on your use of the web? Kelsey That's a that's a really good question. Actually. It's one that I didn't mention, which is auditory processing disorder. So or APD. So this is a condition where, like, I can hear and my peripheral hearing is okay. But my ability to process audio in my brain is a little bit strange. So like, I have trouble processing sound with background noise. It's a cocktail party problem. And so anytime I'm listening to recordings, or seminars, if there's not, for example, the ability to see the person at the same time and do a little bit of lip reading a how have a lot of trouble. Nic Would you say that's your biggest pet peeve or a barrier on the web, the inability to process audio? Kelsey Yeah, definitely. It is it is one of the two biggest barriers I have, I would say. So I was recently attending a course that had recorded lectures. And the lectures are great, but I couldn't see the lecture. And so I had a lot of trouble following the lectures, which was frustrating. And in person, this wouldn't be an issue. Obviously, I wouldn't be able to attend the course in person, but it was frustrating to not be able to understand very well. Nic We're in year three of a worldwide pandemic right now. We have discovered that providing the ability of working from home or doing remote learning is critical. And yet, we're still providing courses where we're not doing everything we can to make things accessible. And the issue you're describing to me seems like while it's pretty critical for students doing high school or even college that are actually paying to attend to be able to access information. You work in academia, I believe. How would you say this translates into your into your job rather than you as someone attending courses? Kelsey Yeah, that's a great question. So I don't teach and therefore I don't normally process how I would interact with students in an accessible fashion because I'm not normally teaching. But for example, when I give seminars I tried to do audio description of what people might be seeing on the slides that I'm giving. So, if the slide contains an image, I'll try to describe what the image is showing so that people can process it in different ways. Or, for example, someone with visual impairment could process the image and understand the slides. But certainly, in academia, we have courtesy the pandemic, we've gotten a lot of online seminars, which is great, but specialist language means that captioning tools often don't work if they're auto captions. And auto caption quality, as we all know, is not what it could be. Nic Certainly would not. If you had one message to pass on to designers or developers about accessibility, what what would that be? Kelsey I would say for me, transcripts are actually the biggest thing every time I go online, and I look at someone recommends me a podcast, for example. And I look online, and I see the podcast, I don't do audio input only very well. And so I don't tend to listen to podcasts. But for example, your podcast has transcripts. So I can go through and actually read the podcast, I can get the content, I can understand what's going on. And I don't have to try to concentrate really hard to try to understand the podcast. So anytime I see something that has transcripts or where someone's put a video on YouTube, and they've also added subtitles or even just enabled auto subtitling or community subtitling and like, Thank you, this is not that big of an ask, but it is so helpful. Nic I'm glad my transcripts are helping you consume the show. I I think and one of these podcasts host a rare bird that actually does not listen to podcasts because I actually need transcripts to process that information as well. So it's one of the reasons why I care about having transcript from my show. Anyway, Kelsey, thank you for sharing some of your experiences with us and we'll see you around on the web. Kelsey Thanks so much, Nic. It's been great

Meagan says: "Sometimes a disability or an impairment is temporary. It's situational. Most of the time I don't have issues. But when I do, I really have them. So try to keep things as simple and easy to use as possible." Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts, where disabled people explain their impairment and what barrier they encounter on the web. Quick reminder that transcripts are available for all episodes at the time of publication on the website. At A one one, why are you l es.com? This is the time to thank our sponsor fable. Fable is an accessibility platform a leader in the field powered by disabled people, I think that's important because nothing about us without us. Anyway, fable moves organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible and accessible user experiences. You can learn more about how Fable can work for your team at https://makeitfable.com/nic. Today I'm talking with Megan eller. Hey, Megan, how are you? Meagan Hi, I'm alright. Nic We haven't really spoken we I think we hang around in the web accessibility slack a little bit. And we may have exchanged a few words, but I don't know you. So this is going to be fun to get to know you a little bit. My first question is typically what's your disability or your impairment, but when we were talking about having you on as a guest, you were a little bit concerned that you don't have a disability, you said, but you do have a condition that is an impairment. Tell us a little bit about that. Meagan So I have an autoimmune hypothyroidism Hashimotos disease. And basically, I have an underactive thyroid, because my immune system attacks my thyroid and your thyroid and the hormones it produces are involved with a lot of body systems. So it can affect a lot of things when the levels aren't, you know, when you're not producing enough hormone from the thyroid. It's very easily treatable with medication. But because it's auto immune, it's not stable. So sometimes medication level isn't... Right. I ran into actually last winter, with our overwhelmed health system, having the delay in getting a correct dosage. And so that was when I had messaged you about being on the podcast, that was the kind of what I was thinking about. Where I really was for a couple of weeks, feeling very I guess. I don't find it disabling but I was definitely feeling very impaired by trying to do things. Nic That's an interesting thing to consider is that you can have a condition that is 90% of the time fine and controlled with medication or, you know, any other kind of fixes. I say fixes in quote marks, but when things get off the rails and even though you're not necessarily longterm, disabled, you still encounter barriers, right? Meagan Absolutely. Yep. It was, I actually went and looked back at apt notes from at that time, because I had mentioned to you that I have a really great boss, that when I told him what was going on, he was very willing to work with me, but you know, explaining that, you know, I was having these difficulties and, and a big one I had mentioned to you was just the fatigue and kind of that brain fog, having trouble concentrating. It's like, I know, I can feel my brain being slow. And I know I'm not you know, doing as much work and maybe not as succinctly as I usually do, you know, in writing, things like that. Nic So how does that translate as a barrier on using the web what what kind of thing really jumped out at you and were problematic? Meagan So the, with the just being tired and having trouble concentrating. That was making it difficult. I was rereading things I found myself every so often I'll use reader mode for articles, especially when there's a lot of motion and videos and stuff, I find that distracting normally, but I really needed that to be able to concentrate. Because I needed the simplified, maybe make the text bigger just to make it easier to concentrate. So long paragraphs of text are much more difficult. In when you're you're having to reread something to really understand it. A nice bullet pointed list is really nice, a wall of text, a lot of paragraphs, were just a lot more effort. I was also running into it wasn't cognitive, but it was the winter. So you know, dry skin normally. But that's another thing that low thyroid can affect is things like dry skin, joint pain and stiffness. So I was and dry skin you might not think about but then when say your knuckles start to crack and bleed. Which is probably more vivid than people necessarily need. But it made it hard to type or, you know, using a mouse I was trying to use smaller movements just because moving my hands was painful. So yeah, things that were continuous scroll can be difficult. Luckily, because I work in an accessibility space doing you know, I sometimes do accessibility reviews, I am familiar with using voice control, I can use a keyboard. So I was using some of the things that I use for testing, like, instead of having to scroll my mouse, that down arrow key was was a lot easier. Nic Yeah, it's I think in many ways, those of us who work in accessibility can kind of cheat. Because we know the resources. We know the tools. When I broke both my wrist, I ended up going to Dragon and it was steep learning curve, because I had never relied on Dragon as much. But yeah, at least I was familiar with the concepts. Now of course, I use it all the time for testing. Because, folks, we had a technical glitch, we had to stop the recording and restart it again. So Meagan, wait, you were telling us about how how you were able to use some assistive technologies because you're familiar with it. And that was a lifesaver to your ability to function on the web. Meagan So yeah, I was just explaining how because I'm familiar with using the keyboard using voice control or speech recognition, a little bit for testing, those were some things that I was able to use. So instead of having to continually scroll my mouse, I could use my down arrow key for some things. I could turn on the speech recognition feature on my device and just use that instead of having to use my hands, which were sometimes painful. Nic Yeah. If you had one message for designers or developers around web accessibility, what would you like them to, to know or remember or pay particular attention to? Meagan The big thing for me is just remembering that people are in different situations and designing you know, accessibility isn't just a blind screen reader user. That is that's an attitude that I seem to run into a lot when talking to people who aren't as familiar. And there are a lot of other audiences and sometimes a disability or an impairment is temporary. It's situational. Sometimes, you know, most of the time I don't have issues, but when I do I really have them. So just trying to keep things as simple and easy to use as possible. I think that actually helps in a lot of a lot of situations, if you're not making your interface super complicated, it's just easier when things fail to, you know, even if it's, it's as simple as a poor internet connection. So. So things are slow. If if it's not as complicated, it will fail much more gracefully. And that applies to in situations where someone is maybe using a technology they're not as familiar with, or they're having difficulty. Because they're not is they're not used to doing things a certain way or just like their their body or their brain is not functioning as well as it normally does. Nic Yeah. Yeah, I think that's that's certainly something that I've seen as well is this idea that, at least in the digital world, accessibility is about blind screenreader users, and in the physical world that accessibility is about wheelchair users, but I'm a wheelchair user, I and I will be the first to say, Well, no, actually, accessibility in the real world is about everybody. Meagan Yeah, I, I've run in the in the physical world, there is a particular intersection, that it's a busy intersection and has, you know, the pedestrian signal. And it is completely unintuitive to me, where they've placed those signals, which one is for which direction? So even things as simple is as that it's Nic Yeah, makes no sense sometimes. And maybe maybe that's the conclusion we have to reach is that sometimes things make no sense. And accessibility is about making sense of these things that make no sense. Meagan Yeah. Yes. Nic Meagan Eller, thank you for being a guest on the show. That was actually a great convo. I'll see you around probably on Slack. Meagan Yes, thank you. Cheers.

Justin says: "Error messages: Make them clear, make them understandable. Don't write a paragraph if you can write a sentence." Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments, and what barrier they encounter on the web. Just a reminder, that transcript for this episode and all other episodes are available on the website at the time of publication. You can find them at https://a11yrules.com. I want to thank fable for sponsoring this episode. Without Fable the show would not be possible. Fable is a leading accessibility platform powered by disabled people. Fable moves organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible accessible user experiences through product testing, and custom courses. You can learn more about how Fable can work for your team at https://makeitfable.com/nic. Today I'm talking with Justin Yarborough again. Hey, Justin, how are you? Justin I'm doing good. How about you? Nic I'm doing good. I'm glad that the first encounter with me for the podcast didn't turn you off completely and that you wanted to bring up a new topic. Before we dive into that, let me ask you, for those people that didn't listen to the other episode, what's your impairment or your disability? Justin I'm blind, I basically have zero vision. Nic Okay, and that means I assume you're using a screen reader? Justin Yep. Nic Cool. So, blind screen reader user, and you said you wanted to talk about form validation? I guess that's a current pet peeve of yours. Tell me about what's the issue around form validation? How's it an impact for you? Justin It's, I think it's I mean, it's, it's definitely a valuable one, especially, you know, for someone who's blind, but it's something that definitely one of those areas that definitely can benefit a, you know, benefits a whole host of people. It the the reason I think of it, it's an it's an it's an area that kind of just interests me, you know, as in my work day to day, working in accessibility myself, is just thinking through, like how a form is built, and how you, you know, let people know, maybe there are mistakes in it, or, and how to fix it, and stuff like that. And when I, when I emailed you, actually, or sent you a message to talk about this topic, I was actually working on a project working with this was one of the clients I work with, and was why it was fresh in the mind. You know, I think the the really important thing with form validation is just to, you know, if someone, you know, fills out that form, and like, hit submit, and maybe they have no idea what happened, you know, why is it not moving through, especially if like, you're, you're someone like me, who can't, you know, you're not seeing the screen, you hit that submit button, and it just doesn't do anything, you're just, I'm probably just going to just assume something's broken and move on. So you know, looking at a good like, form validation pattern where someone can understand what's going on, what the problems are, in, you know, be given some guidance on how to fix it is, I think, just usually important. One of the pattern that is most used with the client I work with, and one I'm a huge fan of, is when you hit that submit button, if not everything validates I love those forms where they'll automatically throw focus up to the first field with an error and have that, you know, error message programmatically associated with the form because it tells it tells me immediately, okay, hey, there's something wrong here. You know, it, it takes him to the field, it tells me there's something wrong, it gives me a description, basically, you know, of what's wrong, what, what I need to fix, and lets me know that and then, you know, since it's that that first one, if you've got, you know, say multiple fields with errors, I can just go tab, you know, tabbing through it through all the forms, see what does, you know, if there's anything else with an error and then go to resubmit? I just, it's a I, I'm a real big fan of that pattern. Just because I think just from a usability factor of anything you're doing, that's just, I think it's just the easiest way to go about it for a screener two years and have that and I feel like that kind of a pattern is going to have a benefit. For a lot more people than just screen nerd are used to, Nic How'd you feel about disabling the submit button until all the fields are actually validating? Justin I hate it. I hate it with the fire of 1000 suns. Nic Why? Justin Because Especially like, as a screen or user, even maybe if you don't have if you don't have it set up, right, or potentially, even if you I guess I should say, if you don't have it says like, there's some sort of like an announcement, hey, this field is not valid, you know, when you like, tap out of one and move to the next. Part of the problem that creates is, you know, someone's moving through what using the tab key that submit, but that submit button is not in the tab order. So I as far as I would know, that submit button doesn't exist. And I could rightfully assume, okay, well, something with this form is broken, it doesn't have a submit button, what the heck is going on here? Why do I not understand it? I it's just, you know, it just feels like a really clunky and, you know, uncomfortable pattern to me. And it's, you know, a, I think it's something that really, really should be avoided. And, you know, like, like, we were talking about, like what, you know, the benefits of like, being someone outside of a screen reader user, I can see plenty of other users, like, you know, maybe they go look at that button, even if it is grayed out in your own, you know, problems with, you know, disabled buttons, and often not meeting color contrast, even though I know they don't need to Don't, don't get me started on that. But, you know, they're not, they might go look at it. And if especially if you're not getting given good messaging, you know, as to what's going on, they might just assume something's wrong here with the formula, it kind of puts everyone in the same. The same, what the heck's going on here, boat? Yeah. It's just, you know, I like, I remember, like this when I was taking a JavaScript class, you know, just to learn JavaScript at my previous job. One of the projects we had actually in that class was to build a form and disable the submit button until it's valid. It's a great, it's a great exercise. I feel like maybe for learning, you know, when you're trying to learn how to do JavaScript, but in the real world, gosh, I hate it as a pattern, and it is just really not. I just think it's really confusing. Nic Yeah. Here's another question for you around form validation. And I have my own thoughts. And I've not been shy on sharing those thoughts. But I'd love to hear what you think of it. And this is inline validation, where each time you type a character, it validates and it tells you this is not correct until it is. And they often use ARIA live assertive on that error message. How do you feel about that? Justin Oh, my gosh, that's I'm just, I'm just hearing, assertive, and I'm cringing. I mean, I cringe anytime I'm hearing Aria, you know, assertive ARIA live, that's, that's odd automatically cringe worthy. This is this, I am I'm having flashbacks to like the, the, the the text area inputs that might be have a character limit. And they'll put an aria live on the you have, you know, the 132 characters remaining. And every time you're typing, it's just immediately saying again, and it's just going to keep throwing that in your ear it, that kind of thing just could be really, really annoying, and could really throw off someone, especially a screen reader and a screen reader user. I don't have a problem with I mean, I can understand like some, to a point at least like the valid, you know, why someone might want to do a validation like that, although, I mean, if you want to do like a validation of each field, I would feel like using doing it on blur would be a much better way to go about it. Nic Thank you this, this is what they actually recommend. It's wonderful to hear an actual screen reader user say this is better. So thank you. Justin Yeah, do it on Blur, or I mean, even if you're going to do like an aria live something while someone's typing it, at least, you know, set it up in a way so that you're not getting an announcement till maybe the person hasn't typed for a second or two. Yeah, you know, that would at least make it a little less painful if you want to go with that pattern. But yeah, do it on or why. Why not? Nic Why not? Yeah. We're talking about validation, which is really, in some way a very A dev specific kind of implementation, but I guess designers also have their, their say in, in what things should look like. But if you had one message for designers and developers around for validation, what would it be? Justin The biggest thing and this would fall into if you're going to talk in like designers or you know, in this, like a content writer type role. The big, the biggest emphasis, I would say, is just, you know, when you provide those error messages, make them clear, make them make them understandable. And, you know, don't, you know, don't write a paragraph when you could write a sentence. Be basically, yeah, be succinct. Make it clear, make it understandable. So someone can go, okay. Hey, I know what I did wrong here and how I can fix it. But you know, like, it's like I said, don't write a don't write a book or a paragraph. Give it to me in a sentence. Nic Justin, thank you very much for sharing that. I'm loving this discussion. And maybe you'll think about another topic to bring up at some time in the future. But in the meantime, let's call it a wrap. Thank you, Justin. Justin I thank you for having me again.

Brennan says "people who create and teach and have disabilities actually use this stuff. We're out in the world creating things while using the products that you're making. It can't just be the first layer of the system that you're making meet bare level of accessibility." Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments, and what barrier they encounter on the web. Just a reminder, that transcript for this episode and all other episodes are available on the website at the time of publication. You can find them at https://a11yrules.com. I want to thank fable for sponsoring this episode. Without Fable the show would not be possible. Fable is a leading accessibility platform powered by disabled people. Fable moves organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible accessible user experiences through product testing, and custom courses. You can learn more about how Fable can work for your team at https://makeitfable.com/nic. Today I'm talking with Brennan Roy. Hey, Brennan, how are you? Brennan Alright, how are you? Nic I'm good. I'm good. I'm glad that we are finally connecting. We've been juggling our sheduled for a little bit. And it's been fun. So here we are. Let me ask you the very first question I ask just about everybody else is what's your disability or your impairment? Brennan I have a number of them. I'm.. I have disabilities that impact my mobility, my vision, my cognition, a number of things I think the most impactful are vision and mobility and yeah... Cognition. I have like a current concussion I have a damage to my optic nerve from intracranial hypertension. I have Chiari that impacts my brain pressure kind of all the time. And Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, which impacts my joints and pain levels. Yeah, those are the big ones. Nic So you you really one of the trifecta of disabilities right there. What... What conditions of these one or two are the ones that impact your web use the most? Brennan I think they all do in different ways. Nic Okay Brennan As I'm looking at my computer setup, right now I have like an adapted... Well, I have an external keyboard with a trackpad in front of it. Because a typical keyboard is hard to use. I have bigger monitors with a number of software adaptations on them and resolution changes so that I can see them. So it's both vision and mobility, I would say that are the biggest ones. My CCTV beside me here that allows me to read printed text. Nic Cool. We don't see those very often in individuals' places. It's typically at the library for reading microfilms, isn't it? Brennan Yeah, I was really lucky. In Ontario, there's a program through the University of Waterloo, where you can get used from individuals who have had them funded through the assistive devices program. So when they finished with them, if you want one that's been used, you can buy it from the University of Waterloo who have refurbished them for $250. Nic Wow, that's, that's a good, good scheme. So we're looking at mobility and visions are probably where you're having the most problem on the web. Tell us a little bit about maybe your biggest two barriers or pet peeves that you encounter related to your disability when you use the web. Brennan I think like, for me, one of the some of the biggest things are like that things are difficult to navigate physically like it requires a lot of like mouse navigation. And it's not like obvious where you need to go. So that's one and so I find that I'm doing a lot with my hands to get to where I need to be. And if I try and tab through it doesn't sensically follow. Nic Yes. Brennan And another one is that If I try and do something in dark mode, most of my computer's in dark mode, pop ups, the text is invisible, like the text won't follow the dark mode. Like if I have to pick a pet peeve, that's probably one of the biggest ones. Or if I'll switch of like a program using one of my dark mode overlays, the whole text just disappears, especially with Google Docs. That's a really bad one for it. Nic That's, that's interesting. It's not, it's not an experience I've had. I'm not a dark mode user. So I hadn't heard that as being something to consider. But that's really, yeah, that's good. So what message would you like designers or developers to remember about accessibility? Brennan I think like that, people who create and teach and have disabilities actually use this stuff. And we're out in the world creating things while using the products that they're making. So it can't just be like the first layer of the system that they're making. Meet the, the, like, their level of accessibility. Like, I work with programs like Audacity and iMovie, and things like that to create videos. And, like, I'll get three or four layers into more complicated action, and suddenly, the access thing doesn't work. Or like, I'll have my screen zoomed in, and I can't see half the program because it won't resize to my screen. And I'm like, why can't I resize this window? So I'm just really frustrated at the things that they don't expect disabled people to be doing with their programming. Yeah. Or like an Audacity? How, like, half of the hover text will work for their symbols, but the other half won't. It's just really annoying. Nic Yeah, I, I used to use Audacity all the time. And I had some blind friends that use Audacity and they said, it's the most accessible free audio editing software out there. I have since switched to Adobe Audition. So I don't know where audacity is gone now. But I do find it frustrating as well, when you start getting comfortable with an application and it feels like hey, this is actually comfortable and accessible. And then suddenly, when you start digging in, it's like, oh, what's just happened there? Brennan like, okay, so I have half of it. I guess I will squint. get really, really close to my screen. Yes, that's okay. Kind of, Nic Kind of. Yep. I actually think that this conclusion for for the show. It's okay. Kind of is fantastic. So, Brennan, thank you for being a guest on the show, and I'll see you on Slack or on the web somewhere. Thanks for being a guest. Brennan Thanks for having me.

Nash says, not quite jokingly, that the entire internet is unusable for him without ad blockers! Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments, and what barrier they encounter on the web. Just a reminder, that transcript for this episode and all other episodes are available on the website at the time of publication. You can find them at https://a11yrules.com. I want to thank fable for sponsoring this episode. Without Fable the show would not be possible. Fable is a leading accessibility platform powered by disabled people. Fable moves organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible accessible user experiences through product testing, and custom courses. You can learn more about how Fable can work for your team at https://makeitfable.com/nic. Today I'm talking with Nash Van Gool. Hey, Nash, how are you? Nash Hi, Nic. I'm doing good. How are you? Nic I'm good. I'm glad to see you. This is our third go at recording this show. The first time I forgot to press record the second time we had a gremlin that dropped us. So let's make sure that this works this time. Nash Third time's the charm. Nic So we we have been talking a lot on enough primary through slack and Twitter. And you told me a lot of really interesting things about your disability. So for our audience, what's your disability or your impairment? Nash I have ADHD predominantly inattentive, which means I don't so much have the typical ADHD hyperactivity and impulsivity. I do have that to some degree. But my problems are more with attention span and motivation. So yeah, I don't have an attention span to speak of really? Nic How does that translate itself? When you use the web, then what what would you be say your barrier is or your, your pet peeve is around? Nash Well, I can't really, yeah, I can't really keep my attention on, on whatever I'm doing for very long most of the time. So anything that requires an attention span, to speak of is very difficult to do. And also I'm extremely distractible by things like moving images and sounds and whatnot. So that that gets in the way of staying on track as well. Nic What concrete example, could you give us a website or platform that is particularly difficult for you to use? Nash Well, the entire internet without an ad blocker is fairly unusable. It's, it's horrible by anybody's standards, of course. But when when most of the content is obscured by moving images and things that make noise and things that move around, things that pop up, it becomes impossible to get anything done. I don't know if any concrete sites specifically that do anything that gets in the way without an ad blocker there, there are platforms that are centered around keeping you distracted and keeping your attention on on everything things like tick tock and YouTube lately with the shorts or you get lost in there for hours. But otherwise, some bloggers like to use animated GIFs and things like that, that really gets in the way of reading which is a struggle anyway because sometimes my brain just stops Nic alright, I have to say I really liked this this answer the entire internet is broken for disabled people, which actually is true. But that's that's a different topic altogether. I think we could talk about for a while. If you one message for designers or developers around making the web more usable to you considering that they may not have control over ads and stuff what what would you tell them Nash Account for people not having the attention span to perform whatever task you want them to perform in one go. So that means things like not having a session timeout for instance, because f I need some external thing to use what I'm using, and that could be a password manager or an external website or anything, I may well get distracted while doing that. And I could be back in five minutes, or I could be back in weeks. That's not an exaggeration that has actually happened. So if my session times out, and I've lost all my work in that, in that time, that makes it that much harder for me to use whatever, whatever project you have. But also things like, video instructions are absolutely horrible. It takes me an hour to watch a two minute video. So if all I have is a video showing me how to use your product, chances are I won't be able to use your product other than just messing around and finding out what button works. Nic That's, that's fascinating. Actually, I never considered that. For someone with ADHD, a two minute video could take an hour to watch, because I hate video-only instructions, I can read a five minute video in 30 seconds, I can jump straight to the point where I want to see it. And sure video is good for some people. But I I do like the idea of giving both. But this argument that you just made, you know, I'll get distracted, I will not be able to process your information. That's really powerful. Nash Yeah, and it's it's, you make a good point also with with processing information, because it's not always getting distracted, I'll sometimes find myself watching a video and just having completely missed the past few minutes. Because I've zoned out. And I just don't know what you've said in your video for the past few minutes. And then I find myself having to backtrack to where I where I lost my attention. Chances are I'll lose my attention while backtracking. So that really makes it makes it hard to hard to follow along. Transcripts are a lifesaver for that, by the way, because then I can just skim back to what I missed and find out where I where it was so awesome. That does help. Nic Cool. Nash. Thank you for being candid and and sharing your experiences and we'll see you around on the web. Nash Definitely. It was good to be here. Nice to have you. Cheers. Thanks for having me.

Guy says that "Everyone is different. Everyone has different needs and preferences. It's very hard to build a one-size-fits-all design." Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments and what barriers they encounter on the web. Just a reminder, I have transcripts available for all episodes at the time of publication from the website at https://a11yrules.com. This is the time to thank Fable, our sponsor for the show. Fable is a leading accessibility platform powered by disabled people. They move organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible and accessible user experiences. And they do that through product testing and custom courses. You can learn more about how Fable can work for your team at https://makeitfable.com/nic. Today I'm talking with Guy Kisel. Hey, Guy, how are ya? Guy Hi, I'm pretty doing pretty well. Nic Good. We've been talking a lot in the background about all kinds of stuff that's super fascinating. But obviously, this is my soundbite. So we're not going to be able to cover everything all the things. Let's start with what's your disability or your impairment that you want to talk about today? Guy Oh, good question. Yeah, I have some RSI issues in my hands. Basically, just from overuse over the years of playing a lot of video games and spending a lot of time on the computer and so on. Largely like tendinitis in my wrist and my hands and and then yeah, the sensory issues, I've always been extremely sensitive, and had issues with, like sensory processing. And that includes, you know, being extremely sensitive to smells, and getting easily overwhelmed and sounds and like feelings and textures and all these things. And yeah, it does sometimes, you know, cause issues with technology or with gaming or stuff like that. On that note, to be clear, I work in the games industry, but I'm only here to represent myself and my own, like perspectives and opinions and not have any sort of official representative Nic that that's totally fair. Now, being very sensitive to smells, I guess, is not a big problem using computers games, we haven't yet gotten to smell-o-vision. And I think I'm happy about that. But how does does this sensory overload? How does that translate in either gaming or using the web or working digitally? Guy Yeah, good question. I'm also very grateful that we have not yet invented smell-o-vision. Even you know, virtual reality doesn't seem to have that yet. And for me, at least, I'm thankful for that. It doesn't always actually have an effect. You know, in a lot of cases, Everything's just fine. But the sort of things that can happen are, it's often like, related to hearing things. So I'm not, I'm not deaf or hearing impaired in any way that I'm aware of. I'm actually very sensitive to sounds. But what that can result in is that I have trouble filtering out... sounds. So like, as an example, if I'm in a crowded room, and there's a lot of conversations going on, it can be really hard to pick out the conversation I'm trying to participate in. And so what can happen in, you know, online situations, is, if you're in a call with people, and there's a lot of background noise coming through their microphone, it can be like nearly impossible to understand them, which I know everybody, or a lot of people probably experienced this as frustrating or difficult. But it can be get, like, especially bad. Or if there's high pitched sounds like feedback, or especially for whatever reason, I'm super sensitive to like whistling. But, you know, if you suddenly have headphones on, you suddenly hear somebody whistling. It's almost like it's being projected directly into your brain. It can be kind of difficult to cope with. Nic So you're not talking about just a bit of a frustration or annoyance. You really are talking about these kinds of sounds, wreck your brain in some way. Guy Yeah, it can lead to just all like thinking or processing or anything. You know, trying to actually be a person just stops and for as long as as you know, whistling are there. high pitched noises are going on. I'm just desperately trying to survive it or get past it. And then you know, if that goes away, then try to resume a normal train of thought or conversation or something. It takes a while to like, collect myself. Of course, you know, this varies, it's like, if I'm really tired, this can be a lot worse than if I'm like, in good spirits or so on. Nic Yeah, but isn't that the thing about accessibility, though that situation vary, situations vary for individual depending on time of day, day of week or period of the year. But that doesn't mean that because it's not always the same. It's any less important, does it? Guy Oh, yeah, for sure. I agree. I'm definitely not like an expert on accessibility or anything. I'm just, from this point of view, survive, as a normal user, try my best to get through the day and do the things I want to do. But yeah, I agree with you that it shouldn't, it shouldn't matter that much. I guess I just add that for like, context or color. Nic Fair enough! Guy, if you had a message for designers, or developers around web accessibility, or digital accessibility or, or things like that, what what would you want them to remember about either disability, inclusion, or accessibility? Guy I mean, I think part of it is just that everyone's different. Everyone has different needs, and preferences, and so on. And it's very hard to do like a one size fits all design. So I, I always really appreciate any software tools or websites that have controls and settings basically, like, let me toggle on and off different sound effects, or turn on and off, sound entirely or music entirely. Often I really liked when things default to not having sound and then have you like opt into sound or something like that. Right? I've often experienced websites that you know, you go to a website to read some documentation about a product and a little chat window pops up in the bottom right with like a cloud high pitch, dinging noise, asking if you want to check with Representative and like, I really appreciate the the effort to provide good service and support. But it's also often like very startling. And the first thing I want to do after after one of those things pops up is just like closed the website and never go back. Nic Yeah, so they're trying to be helpful, but in fact, they are pushing customers away. Guy Yeah, it can happen. And you know, it's one of those tricky things because it's clearly well intentioned, but intentions aren't always enough. Yeah, Nic yeah. I like that intentions aren't always enough. Guy. Thank you very much for sharing your your thoughts and experiences with me and we'll see you around on the web. Guy Sounds good. Thanks for having me on. Nic Cheers.

Alex says that "running into the same barriers every time a new platform or app is released is very frustrating. It's realizing some of my students are struggling with the same kind of issues I was struggling with 30 years ago when I was a student." Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments and what barriers they encounter on the web. As usual, transcripts are available for this episode and all other episodes at the time of publication from the website at https://a11yryules.com. Thanks to Fable for sponsoring this show. Fable is a leading accessibility platform powered by disabled people. Fable moves organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible accessible user experience. They do that through product testing, and custom courses. You can learn more about how Fable can work for your team at https://makeitfable.com/nic. Today I'm talking with Alex Marositz. It's Hey, Alex, how are you? Alex Hi, good morning. Nic Good morning. So you reached out and you said after I asked you said yeah, I'm game to have you ask me some questions. So here's my first question. What is your disability or your impairment, Alex? Alex Well, yeah, I guess I am blind. And I use a screen reader and electronic Braille display to access the computer and the internet. A little bit about me is I spent 12 years teaching assistive technology and access technology and training students to use it in the in the community college system. And then I spent the last three years doing accessibility audits and testing for accessibility and kind of handling the compliance piece. And then about four days ago, I started a new job, which is exactly why I reached out to yo. I was kind of going through a little bit of a switching roles a bit coming back to the community colleges, and I had some some time on my hands and just was participating in the accessibility community overall. So aside from that, I do write for the top tech tidbits flying blind website and participate in some of the other accessibility spaces. I'd say kind of just throughout my career, you're right, kind of the basis of that was having to learn accessible technology, and how to use a screen reader and mix sort of Braille and auditory learning styles. But that's on the computer now. Nic I'm going to get away from my usual questions, because you are the right person to ask this. I'm going to circle back to my other questions. But as someone who has done education and teaching people how to use screen readers for for good portion of time. And as someone who has also worked in the accessibility field, what would you say your top one or two tips for people doing accessibility testing fairly new to it? What would you say the two top tips are for someone looking to learn how to use a screen reader for testing if they are sighted users? Alex You know, that's a good question. And I can only tell you what's kind of helped me, and I feel has kind of set me apart in that space is try to find some time engaging in an activity that you enjoy doing or something like that. Volunteer in some way with an organization that involves disabled people in some way. So I don't know if that means volunteering at an at a youth camp sports camp for persons with disabilities or find something in your area and actually just get to know you know a little bit about the culture and the lives of the people whose work you'll be impacting moving forward. And I just I can't tell you how valuable that is interacting with students every day for 12 or 13 years really gave me sort of a unique perspective and also just kind of oriented the work that I was doing in a better way. You know, knowing what WCAG standards for example are going to impact which folks is a little bit easier to understand when you when you've met them when you when you've met them in a social space for example, like I kind of said rather than just understanding it from from the standards themselves and and why they matter and so forth type documents. Nic I actually love that. I have... Here I am asking for a tech tip and youre really flipping things over the head in a way that I really love is, if I paraphrase you, learning how to use a screen reader is not so much about tech and how you use a screen reader. It's about understanding the culture, and the lives and experiences of people who use screen readers, because I guess you can learn the tech, but unless you understand the people who use the tech, it's not really going to be as useful as it could be, Alex You know, and just an example that comes to mind, and it's not a great one, but we're just talking here, you might work for a company that does simulations of flying cockpits kind of thing, you know, that you might not think that accessibility is very important, right in your work until you maybe join a social group and realize, you know, there are screen reader users who are interested in this field, and, and so forth. And, and just knowing that your work actually matters just as much as in that space, as it does in a banking app, or, or something that we all know that everybody needs to, you know, access. Nic So coming back to the usual shedule of my show, what would you say for you personally, as a screen reader user, what's your biggest barrier, or your biggest pet peeve on the web? Alex You know, okay, I'm glad you use the word pet peeve, a little bit because I kind of flipped the answer around a little bit, from barrier to frustration. And I did that, because I think, you know, we kind of know what some of the barriers are in this space for a screen reader user, right? We know about, you know, using color to identify errors on a form, right? We know about, you know, alternative text on buttons and charts and, and to an extent, images as well, you know, and we kind of do know about what makes what would make if you're a screen reader user, if there's if there's no keyboard access, then that's going to present an absolute barrier, right to your web application. So I think since we kind of already knew that, I think I'm just gonna share kind of what my frustration is. And in that, when on new platform, a line of business application or entertainment website, that sort of video or what have you, ticketing application. Social media is obviously in the news right now quite a bit with new social media platforms out there, running into the same barriers, every time a new platform is released, is the biggest frustration that I think I have on the web. I come from the education space, right. So just kind of the example I had here was just realizing that a student is struggling with some of the same things that I struggled with 30 years ago on a website, right? Nic Yeah. Alex Every time you come up with a new application, you know, we seem to make the same mistakes again. And that kind of leads me into my, the your third question, which is what message would I share moving forward right? Nic Yeah. Alex And that is participate, you know, if you find out something new, really participate in the accessibility space in any way that you can, whether it's coming on a podcast like this, sharing something on Twitter, joining the a11y Slack channel, which is where you and I met, right? Nic Yeah. Alex And just participate and share, take the time to learn, but also just share tips and really just participate and be active in the community. I think that that's the only way we're going to prevent repeats of the same accessibility barriers throughout, you know, new products and things like that. Nic I love that: Participate, get involved. That's a fantastic message to end the show on. Alex, thank you so much for your sharing your experiences and your thoughts, and we'll see you around the web.

Nick Colley says "... in the analytics somewhere, there's a dashboard, and it says when they released shorts, I really started to enjoy Instagram. But actually, if you came in, saw what the impact is, it's like me miserably hooked to this dopamine loop of it is like, is really not enjoyable." Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments and what barriers they encounter on the web. Just a reminder that transcripts are available for all episodes at the time of publication from the website at https://a11yrules.com. Thanks to Fable for sponsoring this episode. Fable is a leading accessibility platform powered by disabled people. Fable moves organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible and accessible user experiences through product testing, and custom courses. Learn more about how Fable can work for your team at https://makeitfable.com/nic. Today I'm talking with Nick Colley Hey, Nick, how are you? Nick Hello. Yeah, I'm Nick with a k. Nic Yes! One Nic without K talking to another Nick with a K. So, my first question to you like everybody else is, what's your disability or your impairment? Nick So, I have ADHD. So I guess the, for me, disability side of things is like if, if I am struggling, it tends to be more outside the web too. And it's like in my work life and things like that. And I can end up with depression or anxiety, depending on different situations. So that's kind of like, yeah, how things can manifest. I'm not necessarily disabled, specifically from ADHD. Its often I feel disabled from specific environments. I mean, if it's a Yeah, people aren't like, not used to working with people with ADHD and stuff like that. Nic So it's not the ADHD itself that is disabling for you. It's all the surrounding conditions that derive from it. Nick Yeah, it's not cut and dry. So sometimes, there has been a few things in my personal life where I was, like, if I could just concentrate now, I'd be great. Yeah, a lot of like, the worst things that tend to be being in spaces where I'm not really being supported in the way I'd hoped. And then, yeah, it can lead to feeling really bad about yourself if you can't get stuff done and things like that. Which, yeah, leads to like, longer term issues and stuff like that. Nic Right! So how, how does that translate onto the web? So, you know, my, my typical web question is, what's your greatest barrier, or your greatest pet peeve related to your disability on the web? Nick So, I was thinking about that, because a lot of like, a lot of the stuff that impacts me is not necessarily directly related to the web. But the main, the main thing I've been thinking about is, like, a lot of the high engagement stuff I find, like, I imagine for a lot of people that quite like, it keeps them hooked, but for me, it's like, I can lose like, four hours consuming something, I don't enjoy it. And like it can ruin my day kind of thing. So I think the My biggest like pet peeve in that in that respect is like yeah, a lot of engagement patterns that aren't really thinking about what happens if you're quite suspect susceptible to more like addictive things. So it's a bit like, like an extreme example would be like online gambling and you've got examples of like loot box stuff where you've got this concept of whales kind of people who are relying on people to like spend a lot of money on things. I think that's the main thing that I find bad on the web is like, yeah, I a lot of the like YouTube and Instagram app I delete them. I tried Tic Tok and I was like scrolling for hours and hours. I imagine a lot of people like that. But like, for me, it's like, I can be there for like six hours like yeah, and then YouTube's added it and then I'm not that I'm not there to watch like a Tic Tok on YouTube. I'm there to watch longer form videos and stuff, but I'm still like falling into these design patterns that are designed to engage, but I think they're too engaging. Nic Yeah. So obviously a platform wants to get their audience engaged. But it becomes almost like a dark, dark pattern where you just, you're hooked and you can't get off. Nick Yeah, I just have to delete the whole thing. Yeah, to get rid of Instagram. I like Instagram, because it's take like taking pictures and stuff. But again, I'm not there for the shorts, but then I ended up. So in the analytics somewhere, there's a dashboard, and it says my account like, Oh, um, when they released shorts, I really started to enjoy Instagram. But actually, if you came in, saw what the impact is, it's like me miserably hooked to this dopamine loop of it is like, is really not enjoyable. Nic It hink that's a brilliant point that the analytics data may not actually reflect the reality of your audience. Because, yeah, what you describe is, okay, so just this user is spending four hours, they really must like it. But in fact, it's No, I hate it. Let me off here. Nick Yeah. I don't know how we could get better at I guess it is making sure that you don't focus too much on just quantitative data and have more like quality stuff? So like conversations with people, interviewing people? Yeah, it's the fact that I've got fireworks going off in the background, because it's Halloween. So if that's a problem.. Nic No problem. No problem. We are all dealing with real life. I know some podcasters that, you know, they freak out if a dog is scratching a colar, and there's a jingle in the background, of fireworks, but it's not really interfering at all. So let's let's not worry about it. We are all living in real life. Nick Yeah, if I if I struggled to keep on track, cuz there's currently like bangers going off in the background. Nic So obviously, a message you could have for developers was... Don't use these patterns to keep audiences engaged. But would you have something else to let developers or designers think about accessibility? Nick I think. Yeah. And on that pattern, specifically, I think it's, it's, we do have a responsibility, I guess, as designers to consider like, is that is there such thing as too much engagement? And I think the answer is definitely yes. And you can only really get to that conclusion, if you focus on the people that will be the most impacted. So I think it's about like inviting people that are more susceptible to Addictive patterns and things like that into the design process. Yeah, so trying to do more user research of neurodivergent people and cognitive accessibility is something that people are starting to get into. And I think, if people invest more in that, it's going to make a big impact on how you think about engagement. It's not just like, Oh, someone's really enjoying themselves. Like, it could be someone is ruined out there all day. And now they've had to delete your app. It's like, it's not. It's not like, yeah, trying to get the why behind some of this data and not just assume, Nic Is this something that could be solved through a user preference interface? So you know, hey, I want to see all these shorts or No, please hide them from me? Nick Yeah. Even just like, I think I always talk about is that the difference between Stardew Valley and Animal Crossing? They're, they're not exactly the same game. But if you think about that, for anyone, I don't know if you played them, but Nic I am afraid I have not played them. Nick They essentially the game loop. In Stardew Valley, you're a farmer. And each day you farm crops, and then you sell the crops. And there's nothing really stopping you from playing that forever, right? So when I played it, I played it for three days straight. Whereas Animal Crossing is similar kind of vibe, you you kind of do things in the day, but it's based on real time. So when it when it gets to 6pm in your real in real life, the shops close in the game and encourages you to take a break just by the nature of design. So I think I think we can learn a lot from just just that kind of design practice where you're thinking about like, how do you you can still do engagement, but I played Animal Crossing for like many months, maybe like six months, but I was only playing maybe like an hour a day. And that to me, that to me is like healthy engagement. I'm enjoying myself. I'm not burning out. Where Stardew I played for four days straight. I still think it's an excellent game. But I, I cannot go back to it because I just it makes me feel like a burn out for you. So I think trying to, it's not about necessarily straying away from patterns that keep people coming back to whatever you're building. It's more about thinking about how do you do that in a sustainable way. Ultimately, like that is like if you want a catalyst take on it. That is the way to keep your thing successful for the long term because then you've got people, if someone's consuming your thing for an hour, over five years, that's much more impact than four days of straight. Yeah. Four days. Nic Absolutely. Hey, Nick, thank you so much for your insight that was really good and powerful. And I'll see you around on the web. Nick Yeah, look forward to talking to you

Alyssa says "sometimes accessibility is kind of still up in the air and a lot of corporate managers don't really understand that until a big bug happens and you lose customers because of it". Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout, and you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments, and what barriers they encounter on the web. I just want to remind you that transcripts are available for all episodes at the time of publication from the website at https://a11yrules.com. Thanks to Fable for sponsoring this episode. Fable is a leading accessibility platform powered by disabled people. Fable moves organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible and accessible user experiences. They do that through product testing and customer courses. You can learn more about how fable can work with you and your team at https://makeitfable.com/nic. Today I'm talking with Alyssa Cheeseman. Hey, Alisa, how are you? Alyssa Not too bad? How's it going with you? Nic It's going good. I'm glad we connected. We didn't know each other before this. So it's going to be a fun show to get to know you and your experiences on the web a little bit. Alyssa Yeah, thank you for having me. Nic Let me start by asking you this, what's your disability or your impairment? Alyssa So I am actually considered legally blind. I do have some usable vision. But not of course, not enough to be able to drive. I also have a guide dog named Ruth, who has a yellow yellow Labrador Retriever. And she is amazing and always there. But overall, my condition is legal blindness with some residual vision. Nic Thank you. Service dogs are amazing. And I say this. I say this, as Winston, my mobility assistance dog is sleeping on my feet right now. So it's wonderful. However, we're not here to talk about service dogs, because so far, they haven't managed to help us on the web. Alyssa Yeah! Nic What would you say your greatest barrier or your greatest pet peeve when you're using the web is? Alyssa So my biggest pet peeve is that sometimes I hear about different products that are going to be implemented, especially if they're my company that I work for now. And I haven't even seen it yet. But they say that it's WCAG compliant. And whenever I get to the website, it's actually not. And the biggest fear that I have is when there's a bunch of unlabeled links and buttons, it makes it very challenging for screen reader users to be able to navigate. And I use the JAWS screen reader with a blue refreshable Braille display. And it makes it really hard if there's just a ton of unlabeled things and buttons. Nic So what I'm hearing is twofold, really first is unlabeled elements make it really difficult for you to perceive and understand what's on the page. But the other aspect of that is that these products are coming to you as being supposedly WCAG conformant. But they're not. Alyssa Right, exactly. Like there's some, there was one instance where we had launched a flagship product, and there was just a bunch of unlabeled buttons. And I test, I actually test our products for accessibility. But sometimes it gets to us and I go to test a product and before it gets to the other customer. And I see these bugs, and I'm just like, this is really crazy. Why didn't we see this new design before it even got to the public? Nic Yeah, that's... As an accessibility consultant myself, that is something I've been struggling with, on and off. It's, it seems like there's a big disconnect there. So what would you say your, your message for designers or developers would be? Is it related directly to that? Or is it something sideways? Alyssa Well, it's very similar to that is if you're testing for screen reader accessibility, you can't just hit Tab through the page. That's not just that's not going to get to where you need to be in terms of screen reader testing, you need to tab into the page as well as arrow down the page using arrow keys. That'll make it easier to know where things are located on the screen visually, and making sure that things are in the tab order because if you're just tabing you may not visually see that something isn't in the tab order. So it's really important to actually arrow through the page, as well as have when you're testing for screen reader accessibility. Nic Thank you for that. I was just talking with a QA tester last week who had logged a bug. And he said, I cannot tab through all the cells in a table. And I told them, why do you need to do that these cells are not interactive. And he says, well, screen reader users need to be able to tap to the content in a data table to be able to understand it and... Alyssa No Nic Yeah, nope, is exactly right. Alyssa That's not the case. Nic Nope Alyssa That is not the case. Because yes, there are table shortcut commands. But that's not necessarily tabbing through. Nic Yeah. Alyssa Cheeseman. Thank you very much for being a guest on the show this week. Alyssa Yeah, of course, I'm glad to be able to spread the word about accessibility and the fact that things definitely need to change from the top down because in just major corporations like the one I work in sometimes accessibility is kind of still up in the air and a lot of corporate managers don't really understand that until a big bug happens and you lose customers because of it. Nic That's a fantastic message to end the show on. Thank you, Alyssa. Have a good rest of your week. Alyssa Awesome. Thank you so much.

Negoslav explains how a lack of accessibility on government websites may mean blind screen reader users can't access critical documents. Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairment, and what barriers they encountered on the web. Just a reminder that transcripts are available for all episodes at the time of publication from my website at http://a11yrules.com. I want to take the time to thank Fable for sponsoring this episode. Fable is a leading accessibility platform. They are powered by disabled people. Fable moves organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible and accessible user experiences. They do this through product testing and custom courses. You can learn more about how Fable can work with your team at http://makeitfable.com/nic. Today I'm talking with Negoslav Sabev. Hi, Negoslav, how are you? Negoslav Hi Nic, I'm fine, thank you. Nic We've been interacting on Twitter on enough for for a while. And finally we connected. So thank you for for willing to come and chat with me about the barriers you experience on the web. Negoslav Thank you for the invitation. Nic You know by now my first question is what's your disability or your impairments? So can you tell us a little bit more about that? Negoslav I'm blind. I was born with glaucoma. And through a series of operations. Finally, I reached here. So since 2001, I'm totally blind. And I'm using computers and other electronic devices since 2003. Nic What's your favorite screen reader? Negoslav Oh, it's it's different experience on different devices. So it's hard to say to tell that on Windows, I mostly use JAWS because I'm doing a lot of text editing. I also use NVDA, for reasons. And on iOS device. So you know that there is only one screen reader and that's quite sober. So I use them. Nic Thank you. What would you say your greatest barrier or your biggest pet peeve is when you're using the internet. Negoslav Sometimes I feel that the developers and teams that are working on websites are trying to hide... trying to hide something from me and try to lock me out. What I mean is that sometimes text that should be heading is not a heading and just a big and bolded text. Sometimes there's a CAPTCHA that I have to solve. And it's not accessible at all. Even it has no alternative. Or the audio that is playing as an alternative is so bad that I can hardly hear it, even though I have very good hearing abilities. And I can give some examples. Last year, I was trying to get documents from the Ministry of Justice that I'm not been I have not been judged. And it I went to the website, I filled the form, I paid the tax to get this document and the document was in electronic format. And I had to open a link to to see it. But when I get got there and open the link, there was a CAPTCHA that had no alternative that even the screen reader couldn't see as a picture. Nic Wow. Negoslav So I was locked out and never saw this document and I was contacting the people that were working there some government agencies but unfortunately, no result and sometimes accessibility work is happening so slowly. That it's so bad. It's so bad. I read today someone who was tweeting. "I want it all, I want it now. But step by step." Nic Yes. And so what you're describing is an experience where it's not just a small barrier, it's not just something that's annoying. It's not that you can't order something on an online shopping platform, it really is that you aren't able to get critical government documents because they're creating barriers for you. Negoslav Yes, unfortunately, there are many other examples, I can give that somehow a content is hidden, I had such an experience, while trying to enter a pin that was presented in a totally inaccessible way no screen reader could see where I should, should press with the mouse or something else. The keyboard wasn't working, or there's something like pressing a button, and content is somewhere on the window. And I have to, to look through it thoroughly to see to see what's there and to interact with it. Nic If you had one message for designers or developers, what would that message be? Negoslav Maybe to be more open minded for different users with different abilities or different needs. Because for some people, reaching to something, reading something or interacting with something that is inaccessible is essential to do. But they cannot enough because they are stupid, not because they are unable to do this not because they are incompetent, just because the technology is preventing them from doing this or not. Not exactly the technology. But the way technologies are implemented Nic I like this. It's not the user who's incompetent. It's the designer and the developer who didn't do the job correctly. Negoslav Yes, and that makes things hard, but they could be much easier. Nic Negoslav Sabev. Thank you for sharing your insight that's been actually really, really powerful for me. So thank you, and we'll see you around on the web. Negoslav Thank you, Nic.

Lē Silveus McNamara says consuming Tech has a stimulant effect on the nervous system and the overconsumption of a stimulant, like technology [is] bad for your health. Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout, and you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments, and what barriers they encounter on the web. Just to remind you that transcripts are available for all episodes at the time of publication from the website at https://a11yrules.com. I am really grateful to Fable for sponsoring this episode. Fable is a leading accessibility platform powered by disabled people. Fable moves organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible and accessible user experiences. They do that through product testing and custom courses. You can learn more about how Fable can work with your team at https://makeitfable.com/nic. Today I'm talking with Lē McNamara. Hey, Lē, how are you? Lē Hi, I'm doing well thank you, Nic. Nic It's been a while since we've been in touch on and off on the web. And we worked a little bit together a while back on the Knowbility internet accessibility rally. And that was fun. And finally we get to connect. So let me ask you this, what's your disability or your impairment? Lē So well, I am a multiple neurodivergent. So I and I also live with a chronic illness. So the nuts and bolts are C PTSD, chronic pain condition and autoimmunity with self diagnosed autism, which is kind of a recent discovery that I have made of myself as part of being a part of the accessibility world. And man has that discovery, blown some things up wide open for me. So it's been that's been an exciting adventure the last few years. Nic It can be very exciting to realize you, you have something that has never been diagnosed, but suddenly when you realize it's like all the pieces of puzzle come together. Lē Exactly. Yep. Yeah. Nic So we're talking about barriers on the web, what would you say your your greatest barrier or your biggest pet peeve related to your disabilities and using the web? What what would that be? Lē So I would say the number one is going to be the overuse of high saturation, or what I call emergency colors. So when you are neurodivergent, although many of us see especially high saturation colors differently. So if you imagine, in your mind, a bright red, we might see that as more of a neon. And that same mechanism of you know, when you see when you're online and you see an emergency pop up, for example, and it's in that bright, high saturation red, that same mechanism that makes it so that that red gets your attention is overly stimulating for me. Right. And so when that color, whether it's high saturations reds, yellows, or oranges, when those colors are used, outside of the context of their intention, which is to say, an emergency, we need your attention right now. That hook, right, that hook into the mind can be very problematic. And in fact, when I see a website that uses especially high saturation, red as a branding color, and so you'll see it in blocks all over the side, or see buttons all over the site. It actually causes both high anxiety and nerve pain so that overstimulation can be so severe that it puts the nervous system into overload. And the experience of that internally is anxiety, frustration, sometimes a sense of panic, but also active pain that can last sometimes for a few minutes, but sometimes for several days. Nic Would you say then that companies that have red as a brand color need to change that or what would be a solution there? Lē Yes. So really, what we're looking at is the saturation level. So you can use red, but you want to bring the saturation level down. Right. And actually, if you want to see examples of what I mean by this, I did write a blog post that is currently posted on the TPGi website. It's called Going beyond WCAG losing spoons online. And in that article, I extrapolate some of the various issues that I have found on the internet and one of these, this is one of the issues and I do give visual examples that you can consent into or not for my, my neurodivergent peers, and also hex codes so that you can really see what I mean by high saturation, but your designers will know what you mean. And so you just want to bring the saturation down. So if you're using a warmer read that that's better Right. And then I would just say if you do you know, if you're a company that sort of stuck with a high saturation color that you've invested a lot of time in marketing in, and it's in your logo. Well, if it's just in your logo that might be okay. But take it out of the website in large blocks, right? Take it out as a big block background color, or as button colors, text colors, etc. Nic Thank you. If you had one message for designers or developers, what would it be? Is it along the lines of beware your colors? Or do you have something else for for them to think about? Lē I think it's I think it's broader than that. I think one of the things that, as a culture we are still overlooking when it comes to these new technologies, and how much time we're all spending with them is that at the end of the day, consuming Tech has a stimulant effect on the nervous system. And this is true for everyone, regardless of whether or not they're neuro divergent, but not unlike the consumption of overconsumption of a stimulant, like caffeine, for example, is bad for your health, the overconsumption of a stimulant, like technology, like the screen based technologies that we use, is also bad for your health. And that's just even more so true for those of us with what we call sensory sensitivities who are neurodivergent. Right? So I would encourage designers to educate themselves on the basic neuroscience of that and be thinking about it as they're designing to minimize their does minimize the stimulant nature of their designs, you know, as that as that light comes in through the eyes and affects the brain and affects the nervous system, right. So and that can be that can be a lot of things that can be minimizing motion, minimizing the amount of content on the screen at any one time, so minimizing clutter, you know, not not putting too much information all in one space. Limiting limiting color, color variance, decreasing the saturation of colors across the color spectrum, right. So there are a lot of things that we can think about and imagine to do to say, to say we understand this as a stimulant, naturally. So what can we do to minimize that effect, and that is going to not only help my population, but it's also going to decrease the negative long term effects of technology use on the population at large. Nic Lē, thank you so much for sharing your your experiences and giving some advice to our listeners. So thank you. Yeah, thank you

Sam asks "why people who produce content where they have the script, they have the content, they have the time, they have the resources, don't provide captions that are accurate?" Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments and the barrier they experience on the web. Just a quick reminder, transcripts are available for all episodes at the time of publication from the website at https://a11yrules.com. I would like to thank Fable for sponsoring this episode. Fable is a leading accessibility platform powered by disabled people. Fable moves organization from worrying about compliance to building incredible and accessible user experience through product testing and custom courses. You can learn more about how Fable works with your team at https://makeitfable.com/nic. Nic So today I'm talking with Sam Evans. Hey, Sam, how are you? Sam Doing very well today. Thank you, Nic. Nic We have been talking a lot over the years. I've been trying to organize you coming on this show for a little bit. So I'm glad we finally connect. Let me start with the question I asked everybody. The first question is what's your disability or your impairment? Sam The biggest challenge I face is being hard of hearing I have... I use hearing aids. And so I am very much relying on captions. And if I'm in person with someone lip reading, or if their image is large enough on a screen to compensate for being able to hear and understand clearly what the spoken word is. Nic How does doing video calls like this on a platform where there's not necessarily captions? How does that work? Sam I'm familiar with your speaking tone and, and how that works for you. And having seen your face in person, and a clearer view of your face where we have video while we're chatting. But I turned my audio up. Now if you're if you're covering your mouth, I wouldn't be able to but but I turned my audio up. And I also have my hearing aids tuned in for audio input from a computer device. So I rely a lot on trying to understand context, if it's on a video call. And trying to catch what's happening, I'll often use a secondary tool or device if there's not captions included in the episode or in the event. Most of that is AI. So at best 60%, 70%, maybe 80% accuracy. So it's a lot of guestimation which is a lot of cognitive load on top of trying to engage. Nic That would actually be very tiring. I mean, everybody finds video calls tiring. But if you have to have that added cognitive load on top of it, how... What's the effect, if you have, you know, three or four or five hours of video call in a day? Sam It's exhausting. And for those of us who've come up in trying to multitask and functionally do more than one thing at a time, you cannot do other things other than follow along, listen, try to hear, read and engage. So even if you are dedicated to doing nothing but being on focus, it's still a lot of load. It's mentally strenuous, in addition to trying to take in what audio my ears can hear. Nic All right, so that seems like a pretty significant thing. But my usual second question is what's your biggest barrier or your biggest pet peeve on the web related to your disability? Is it different from from this thing that we've just been talking about? Or? Sam One of the other things that accompanies that, for me is vestibular disability about balance and motion. And so if those two things come together with online video content, it's it can be just absolutely draining for the day. So my biggest pet peeve is why people who produce content where they have the script, they have the content, they have the time they have the resources, don't provide captions that are accurate or don't make the time to invest in accurate and usable captions, perhaps not understanding and I think that's the biggest challenge. For me, the biggest pet peeve is not understanding what quality accurate usable captions mean to people who need them. And this concept of just turn the captions on and you're done. And that seems to skip over the entire part of understanding the people who have a need. And I don't think it's malicious and intent, but the outcome is the same for people who are prevented and from engaging and face that barrier. Nic You talk about accurate captions, and you throw out some numbers before. We said 60% or 70%, maybe 80%. Isn't 80% success rate good enough? I mean that, you know, if you use sit to test, typically 80%, you've passed the test 80% When I was at university is an A. Sam It is for evaluations for maybe knowledge assessments. But when we talk about the accuracy of captions, every 1% loss and accuracy in captions in the research I've read most recently is about a 10% loss in comprehension. So if we're talking 80% As a best for AI, that's a 20% loss in accuracy. And if you multiply that by 10%, for comprehension, we've reduced the comprehension by 200%. Nic Nice. That's very nice. I mean, it's not but it's, it's, it's an interesting set of numbers. Thank you. Sam So 1% accuracy if we consider just a simple word, and it depends on someone's pronunciation, or accent or speaking patterns. If AI, artificial intelligence gets the word can't C A N, apostrophe T wrong, then somebody is going to say, oh, I can do this. One word. Nic Yeah. Sam And make a massive difference in the guidance, instructions, or information someone comes away with. So that's one to 20%. That's massive, and change. Nic Yeah, I come across that all the time. I use voice to text on my phone very often. And I cannot use voice to text without editing what I'm sending. And a couple of days ago, I had a good laugh. I said argument, and Siri wrote sex garment. And it was in the context of a business communication. So that would not have gone very well. Sam I also cannot trust Siri to hear and translate what I speak all the time. I tried to double check, but we're not there yet. And 20? Nic Yeah, we are not there yet. So if you had one message for designers or developers around accessibility, what, what would that be? Sam I want to encourage designers and developers to first think about the people. So first, start by understanding disability. Pick one, two or three types of disability and consider the barriers that disabled people face with digital engagement and learn just some of those personas, and how disabled people engage, and how inaccessible content prevents them from having an equitable experience. If we can start with the who, then we can think about why there's a challenge a barrier or how we, as developers, designers, can change our methods to remove a barrier instead of creating or sustaining existing barriers. And I think if developers can take one moment to think I want to make the world less full of barriers, they don't have to remove them all. But what can I do to remove one barrier? I think that's a really empowering opportunity for developers, when they can make it a personal effort, as opposed to a task list or challenge or an add on to what they're already doing in their busy days. If they can find a personal commitment to why it affects humans, to make the world a better place, I think that usually is the way that I find developers most likely to voluntarily affect change in their process. Nic I love that. Sam Evans, thank you for being such a good guest. And I'm sure we'll see you around on the web. Sam We will. Thanks so much for having me join today, Nic, I appreciate it.

Barry says he has to guess a lot about what elements do what on a site, because semantically meaningful markup isn't being used. Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments, and what barriers they encounter on the web. A reminder that there are transcripts for this, and all other episodes on the podcast's website a11yrules.com/ Thanks to Fable for sponsoring this episode. Fable is a leading accessibility platform powered by disabled people. Fable moves organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible and accessible user experiences, through product testing and custom courses. Learn more about how Fable can work for your team at: makeitfable.com/nic. Today I'm talking with Barry Hill. Hey, Barry, how are you? Barry I'm good. Thank you very much happy, I'm healthy, Nic Happy and healthy is good, is good. You come to us from the UK. So we... We had a little bit of fun and games scheduling these things. You're You're in my future right now. Barry Yes, yes. It's nearly time for me to make dinner over here. And I think you've just about finished breakfast. Nic That's right. That's right. Breakfast and dinner. Nothing wrong with having breakfast for dinner. Anyway, Barry What's your disability or your impairment? Barry I've been blind for 28 years now. I went blind, suddenly, through a car crash. Many hours, a sales rep driving for a living. And then I had a horrific car crash and woke up in hospital with no sight. You never know what's going to happen to you the day after? Nic Yeah, that would be quite a quite a shock and a complete change of lifestyle, wouldn't it? Barry Oh, yes. Yes, it was. Nic So 28 years blind, you've probably come to develop a lot of coping mechanisms and techniques to function on the web. But I'm still quite certain you encounter barriers, what would you say is your biggest barrier or your biggest pet peeve on the web? Barry My biggest pet peeve is the way that developers program writers have gone from writing basic code to using WYSIWYG and drag and drop programs. So you're not writing code anymore. And it seems like everything, either is a hacked or needs to be hacked. And that makes it difficult for me to use my screen reader online as I would to interpret websites. It's not as straightforward. So I have to guess a lot of things or work around them, I have to figure out workarounds, or go by experience of when I've come across this hash up before and just don't like it when there's an easy alternative. It really does irritate me that it's there. People just don't understand that we have tools there that can make things so much simpler. Nic So if I understand correctly, what you're saying is that the reliance on JavaScript frameworks is making everything worse for you as a screen reader user. Barry Yeah, yeah. I don't know the language. But JavaScript do sound very much like what's happening. But yes, without a doubt, people are just and it's not just that as well. People are using links for buttons and buttons for links, they are coding divs as buttons, and I just don't understand why they need to do that sort of thing. Why not just use the proper elements? Nic Yeah, well, that's certainly a rant I've been on about for for a little while, you know, HTML matters. Yeah. Yeah. Barry, my message to designers and developers, it's HTML matters. But what would be your one message to designers and developers as regards to web accessibility? Barry It's that very thing. I just wish that coders would learn HTML, it's not difficult. I learned HTML, took me two months to learn that 100 different pieces of code for it. And I wrote a website and that was about 10 or 12 years ago. Did that. I can still remember a lot of it. So it's really not difficult to do and some of the things that are really useful for me the structural HTML, you only need maybe 12 or 15 of them to know how to go to a website to make it so that I can navigate a website with ease, using things like headers, footers, main skip links. It just makes it so much easier. If I can open a webpage, and my screen reader will just tell me the whole layout of that page through this semantic markup, and I know what to expect then before I even started looking at. So I can almost get a feel for the page at the same speed as a sighted person when they glance at our page, if it's got proper semantic markup. Nic Thank you, Barry. I love to hear this message coming from a screen reader user. Because, you know, a lot of people in the accessibility community are saying the very same thing. So we're not just inventing things it's the lived experience of a blind screen reader users. Use semantic HTML user outlines. This is fantastic. Thank you. Barry You're welcome. Nic Barry, thanks for being a good guest and your candid answers, really appreciate it. And we'll see you around on the web. Barry Definitely. And probably on Twitter as well. I've been following you on Twitter for a while as well, Nic. Nic Probably on Twitter. I spent a lot of time there. Barry, thank you.

John says, among other things: "Let the user choose. Don't ever dictate to someone's assistive technology". Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I'm Nic Steenhout. And you're listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts, where disabled people explain their impairment and what barriers they encounter on the web. Just a quick reminder that transcripts are available for all episodes at a time of publication from the website at https://a11yrules.com. Thanks to Fable for sponsoring this episode. Fable is a leading accessibility platform powered by disabled people. Fable moves organizations from worrying about compliance to building incredible and accessible user experiences through product testing, and custom courses. Learn more about how fable can work for your team at makeitfable.com/nic Nic Today I am talking with John Tubbs. Hey, John, how are ya? John Good to be here. Nic. Thank you. Nic Well, thanks for joining me. Let's talk a little bit first about what's your disability or your impairment? John It's an interesting question. I've never had a formal diagnosis. But working with the whole area of accessibility, universal design such in my work at the University, I've been able to kind of self diagnose and looking back at my history academically, educationally, developmentally, I could see where there were certainly some things that I did not address or were not addressed with me by people in my past institutions, in my past that they probably should have! Really what I can trace it down to is I have a language processing, a Semantic Processing problem that really jumbles words, re... puts words back together in odd situations, or relationships. The best way to describe it, and for folks that are from America, and of my age, which is late 50s. You probably remember the electric company is a children's show on public television. And they had a learning skit that they always did, and they took an opening consonant sound, and a closing vowel consonant sound, and then assemble them pa at Pat, cup at cat. So what my processing does is it will look across a sentence of words on a page, and it will start reassembling the words on me. So I will see Pat instead of cat or bat instead of cat, as I'm reading through, and the biggest place where I see it happen often is between lines of text. So as I'm reading through, I will be reassembling words based on letters in combination and see in other lines while I'm reading. So it's it's pretty difficult for me to consistently read through long form, especially if it's tightly compressed words on a page or on the screen. The other interesting thing about this though, it's not just in my own reading practice, it comes to me just... It rolls in my head as noise. So the best option I can ever description I can give of this is growing up I played hockey. And I would remember being on the ice, like lining up for a face off. And I would hear these, the electric company playing in my head. It was something I would see something in the stairs on the scoreboard on the stands, a sign a fan might be who knows, a word would hit me and I would start spinning of all what consonant combination in my head as I'm playing hockey, so it's something that once my head starts spinning, it's it's like the roulette wheel with the ball going around in one direction and balls go in the other direction. And it just becomes this cognitive noise. That is just nerve racking. Yeah, and I've never outgrown that, surprisingly. Nic So, if we were to put a label on, at least the first part of what you describe, I would associate that strongly with dyslexia. John Yeah, that's been that's been my take on it. My wife who also studies disability and has a lot of experience with her own students, as a professor would go to the same way, come to the same conclusion. I would also have to add, you know, I do have some of the classic can't do left, right. Right, I'll say left. And I mean, right, and vice versa. And so that is obviously a very difficult situation. Nic Yeah. John When you're driving with somebody, Nic Yes, I can see that. So what would you say your biggest pet peeve or your biggest barrier related to that and accessibility on the web is? John Well, the web gives me a fighting chance, sometimes. A printed page, I'm stuck with the printed page, I can't do anything about it. But the web, at least gives me the opportunity to do some things with my devices, whether it be a browser on screen or mobile device, or whatever else if I can control the CSS. Now, the problem is, for me, it's not just bigger letters. That doesn't help. Because the relative space between the lines stays the same, the letters just get bigger, maybe it's a bigger problem. Hard to say. But what, when I first learned about CSS, all of a sudden, in the places I had some control over CSS, I could take better control of my reading, in that I could adjust the line spacing, at a doesn't have to be double space, you know, the page, the density of text on the page, all that would contribute. But if I could change the line spacing, I was really, I was in a much better situation, I could turn off the noise that I would see between lines of text. So if it's densely packed, and I can't do anything about it, that's tough, you know, sometimes, just reorienting, the length of the line can help it. So if I'm on a mobile device, especially I can go portrait landscape flip. And sometimes that helps, because I changed, again, just the density of lines. And sometimes, you know, you go with the go there and the CSS changes, you know, because you're in different views. So it's it that can be helpful. It's not necessarily helpful. But, you know, over over the years, I've just come to instinctively do different things to try to give myself a leg up. Nic So what I'm hearing from you is that the web can either be really helping you because if you have control, you can actually interact with the content in a way that works for you. Or it can be just as bad a barrier as the printed word. Because if you can't adjust to your own print preference, if you want. John Right, Nic then you're stuck. John Yeah, yeah. Again, in, you know, traditionally, we think with, you know, either some visual challenges or, you know, cognitive challenges and reading, reading, processing, you know, large screen text and stuff was often the thing that you'd be, you know, considering, but that doesn't help me seemingly. So yeah, the web gives me this fighting chance, like I was saying, now it comes down to, you know, great user interface design, that would allow you to have that available to the user, so they can make their own decisions. And not to let the cat out of the bag about you and I Nic. But we've had lots of discussions over the years, just about user preference to handle their assistive technologies. We and you know, myself and my background as a instructional media designer, and producer. You know, I learned the hard way, by getting, you know, some incredible pushback from disability, disabled people that were in my classes that I was providing content for, that they didn't like what I provided them, because it didn't fit what they wanted to use. And the example of course, that we've discussed it at length in the past is I provided what would be the textbook, assistive technology and remediation and content for someone who was blind. That person didn't want the textbook blind, accommodation. They wanted something else. I was doing what I thought was the best thing and it was not what they needed. And then I said to myself as a content creator and producer, how do I know? I never will when you do big online learning. I in the courses that I was designing for I had half A million learners in a single course half a million. That's 50,000. At minimum, folks with some sort of need for an accommodation. Nic Yeah. John I will never know, know those 50,000 people. So you know, the web and the user interface design is crucial that it lets the user make their own decisions. And that's what I had to do. And maybe I just did I put that in the back of my mind and said, Gosh, here's the user interface that I really like, because I can change the line spacing. Or I can do this or I can do Yeah, so my brain can see the page can connect with the page and make, derive meaning from that page. Nic If you had one message for designer or developer, would it be around this concept of let the user choose? Or would it be something else? John Oh, let the user choose is my mantra, and has been my mantra for the last 10 years, really, if it just has to be the case, I as a designer, I never wanted to let a good, universally designed page look bad, esthetically. And so I always was, you know, wandering between my designers, and my content. And then my folks that work with accessibility stuff along with me to make it all come together all, you know, in something that's beautiful, but yet completely universally designed. So then every user can have a successful experience. So it's, it can be done. We've, I've I've worked very, very hard on trying to do that it can be done. It takes effort, and it takes, you know, again, great knowledge of CSS, but then also knowing what kind of CSS accommodations to build for what what what do I put in that CSS control panel that can be called out easily. And you know that it's there as a user on that page. That allows it not just for oh, you're blind, you're deaf, you're this You're that you? Whatever. Have it open the CSS open enough that anybody can choose their way of participating. So if there's like a magic bullet, or you know, the ultimate target to shoot for, that's what I would look for, not to ever, ever, ever dictate to someone's assistive technologies. Nic Yeah. Thank you, John, that that is a very powerful way to finish the show. John Tubbs, thank you for sharing that stuff with us and we'll see you around on the web. John Thank you very much Nic, appreciate it. Nic Cheers.

Thanks to Fable for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments, and what barrier they encounter on the web. Quick reminder that transcripts are available for all episodes at the time… Continue Reading Andy Feuling talks about one-handed gaming

Robert says: “The message I had to give folks if it was just one is don’t make assumptions about how people with disabilities use the web”. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairment, and what barrier they… Continue Reading Robert Jolly talks about cognitive impairments and complex interfaces

Jessie says that accessibility does not mean just catering to a specific group of people. Accessibility is not just for people with disabilities, accessibility is for everyone! Thanks to White Coat Captioning for providing in-kind sponsorship for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout, and you’re listening to the A11y Rules Soundbite, a series… Continue Reading Jessie Zhang speaks about Deafness and the need for captions

Justin asks us to think outside of our use case, and that not everyone uses the web the way we do. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairment, and what barrier they encounter on the web. Today,… Continue Reading Justin Yarbrough talks about alt text

Matt says only gather necessary data on web forms. Break down the form into multiple steps. Let user come back and add information when they are able to. This will lead to a higher completion rate. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts… Continue Reading Matt Trask speaks about depression and web forms

Iris tells us that “The web has gotten more and more inaccessible over my lifetime”. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairment, and what barriers they encounter on the web. Today I’m talking to Iris McCleary. Hey,… Continue Reading Iris McLeary talks about ADHD and how she can’t use social media anymore

Paul points out that he doesn’t have barriers all the time with the use of color alone, particularly red and green, but when he has a blocker, it’s a doozy. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairment,… Continue Reading Paul Fenwick talks about color blindness and not using color alone

Myriam says “Most people don’t even consider that people like me could have an issue with their website. They don’t even think about it.” Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments and what barriers they encounter on… Continue Reading Myriam Jessier talks about ADHD and the barriers she encounters on the web

Albert stresses the importance of letting users control their experience, through settings and various controls. Transcript Nic All right, I’m Nic Steenhout and you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments, and what barriers they encounter on the web. Today, I’m talking with Albert Kim.… Continue Reading Albert Kim talks about OCD, PTSD, and web accessibility

A developer in the mid-'90s, Nic Steenhoutwas approached by clients facing issues not yet part of the public consciousness. On the emerging web, accessibility hurdles kept people with disabilities from engaging in a technological revolution.Confronted by this gap within the digital landscape, Nic began championing web accessibility. He transitioned into the non-profit sector, where he collaborated with people with various impairments and was introduced to new assistive technologies. Twenty years on, Nic continues his accessibility work as an independent consultant for both the private and non-profit sectors. Having worked on three continents, he's engaged with thousands of individuals with disabilities. Blogger, podcaster, and public speaker, Nic offers real-world insight into everyday accessibility issues.Thank you for listening to Allied! For transcripts, show information, and updates, visit our website: https://www.3playmedia.com/alliedpodcast/Follow us on social media! We can be found on Facebook and Twitter.

Amy says that if you cut text off and don’t provide a way to expand it, she can’t read your content. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout, and you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairment, and what barriers they encounter on the web. Today,… Continue Reading Amy Carney talks about text that gets cut off

Amy tells us that sticky elements are a problem for her as they can hide content. And overlays don’t help. Transcript Nic Hi. I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules sound bytes, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments and what barrier they encounter on the web. Today,… Continue Reading Amy Carney talks about low vision, sticky elements, and overlays

Dacey says, among other things “If you’re going to include animated GIFs, I would recommend them not playing by default, but allowing the user to click a play button.” Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rule sound bites, a… Continue Reading Dacey Nolan talks about epilepsy and her barriers on the web

Listen to disabled people year round, not just on International Day of Persons with Disabilities. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments and what barriers they encounter on the web. Today’s episode is a bit different –… Continue Reading Listen to disabled people’s stories – IDPD 2021

Kelly says “if you have long tables and lists actually put borders on them”, so she knows what she’s picking up. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules sound bites, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain… Continue Reading Kelly Hussey talks about speech input and visible element separation

Kevin says: Give user choice: “Obviously what’s good for me won’t be good for someone else. We shouldn’t be designing for a kind of homogeneous grade of people.” Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility soundbites, a series of short podcasts… Continue Reading Kevin Mar-Molinero talks about dyscalculia and copy/pasting

Ruben, talking about text reflow, says sometimes “text will actually go over the container and sometimes I can’t even see what things say. I have to open up the developer console and actually look at it”. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening… Continue Reading Ruben Nic talks about Kerotoconus

Meryl tells us, among other things, that “If we notice the caption, it’s a sign they’re not good quality.” Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where disabled people explain their impairments, and… Continue Reading Meryl K. Evans talks about being Deaf and caption quality

Ben Lesh says if you can do your best to actually get the users focus on what matters and kind of limit the noisiness of the other things that would be a big deal for certain folks. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re… Continue Reading Ben Lesh talks about ADHD and reducing “noise”

Mike tells us about automating accessibility: “as a blind consumer, of content, information, whatever, I don’t care where I get it, as long as I get it. Information is what I need.” Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules… Continue Reading Mike Calvo talks about blindness and inclusion

In this episode, I spoke with Nic Steenhout. Independent Accessibility Consultant, speaker/trainer, host of the a11y Rules Podcast and a11y Rules Soundbites. We talked a lot about Accessibility and a lot of different aspects of accessibility. Intro/Outro music graciously given permission to use called, "Settle In" by Homer Gaines. Transcripts can be found at https://toddl.dev/podcast/transcripts/steenhout/ Show Notes: https://incl.ca/ - Nic's personal site https://twitter.com/vavroom - @vavroom on Twitter https://a11yrules.com/ - A11y Rules Podcast https://a11yrules.com/series/a11y-rules-soundbite/ - A11y Soundbites Podcast --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/frontendnerdery/support

Thane tells us that CAPTCHAS with time outs are the worse. He types very slowly and sometimes he can’t type the CAPTCHA in time. And the picture ones can be difficult to solve on occasion. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to… Continue Reading Thane Pullan talks about switch input and CAPTCHAs

Di tells us that to make the web more difficult than it needs to be for disabled people is a shitty thing to do. And it doesn’t reflect well on you. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite.… Continue Reading Diana van Dulken talks about ADHD and things moving on screen

Multiple accessibility experts discuss the importance of the default focus style. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbites. This one’s a bit different. We have designers and developers talking about why focus outline is important. I want to… Continue Reading Default focus outlines: Don’t remove them!

Julieanne King tells us that super thin, font strokes, really, really skinny lettering, and using like a medium gray font color cause a problem for a lot of users on the web. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules… Continue Reading Julieanne King talks about age-related reduction in visual acuity

Julieanne says when she’s information seeking, trying to accomplish a task, movement on the screen, that is not something that she causes to happen or choose to happen can absolutely derail her. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules… Continue Reading Julieanne King talks about moving content on pages and ADHD

The digital accessibility umbrella is broadDigital accessibility means different things to different people. Most people, on hearing the term, think of people with disabilities, such as being deaf or blind. But our two experts, Nic Steenhout and Carie Fisher, make it clear the digital accessibility umbrella encapsulates much more. It also includes people who:Have ADHD or other cognitive issues — such as with memory, concentration or information processingAre accessing digital information via different technology — such as mobile, or older browsersMay be accessing the internet with slower connectionsAre colorblindAre non-native English speakersNic Steenhout sums it up, “Regardless of the format, digital accessibility all comes down to the same thing — making sure that what we're building is workable, perceivable, understandable, and operable by people with disabilities, and everybody else as well."Digital accessibility benefits everyone, including youOur experts also make the point that digital accessibility is not necessarily limited to the group it's intended for; what is beneficial for one group can benefit another. Nic gives an example, “Plain language and transcripts are easier to understand for people that have cognitive impairments, but they also benefit non-native English speakers.”Nic adds that by factoring accessibility into your site, you broaden your audience as well. “Are people accessing your site through a keyboard, a mouse, Speech Input, Alexa? You don't know. And because you don't know, you have to plan for all that.”Make your content more accessible on the frontend and backendMaking room for accessibility requires a dose of both imagination and empathy; as Nic points out, “We're all only temporarily abled.” On the frontend, our experts highlight suggestions for putting yourself in someone else's shoes and improving your site's accessibility. Use proper markup.Throttle down your bandwidth.Look at your site in an older version of a browser.Unplug your mouse, turn off your trackpad, and spend the day working only with your keyboard.They have suggestions for the backend too:Write clean, readable code Comment your code.Update and organize your documentation.Read the web content accessibility guidelines to find out how you can make your site more accessible for everyone.Platform.shLearn more about us.Get started with a free trial.Have a question? Get in touch!Platform.sh on social mediaTwitter @platformshTwitter (France): @platformsh_frLinkedIn: Platform.shLinkedIn (France): Platform.shFacebook: Platform.shWatch, listen, subscribe to the Platform.sh Deploy Friday podcast:YouTubeApple PodcastsBuzzsproutPlatform.sh is a robust, reliable hosting platform that gives development teams the tools to build and scale applications efficiently. Whether you run one or one thousand websites, you can focus on creating features and functionality with your favorite tech stack.

Dr. Ellen Spertus explains that it’s easy to make mistakes on a password field and a “show password” feature is critical to accessibility. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite a series of short podcasts, where disabled people… Continue Reading Dr. Ellen Spertus talks about essential tremors and password fields

Holly Schroeder explains that when a touch target is too small she may not be able to complete a task because she doesn’t have the fine motor control to tap her finger on the right area of the screen. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout.… Continue Reading Holly Schroeder talks about essential tremors and worsening vision

Julia Ferraioli says if you’re already dealing with blurry vision, making something blurry bigger, isn’t necessarily going to help that much. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite, a series of short podcasts where people with disabilities explain… Continue Reading Julia Ferraioli talks about contrast and parralax

Michael thinks the most important thing that we fail to do on a daily basis is talking with people with disabilities or talking with the users in general. Transcript Nic Hi. I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite a series of short podcasts where people with disabilities explain their impairments, and… Continue Reading Michael Ausbun talks about blindness and ARIA live regions

Alex points out that if we make processes more complex for users, they aren’t likely to be able to finish things, or complete them properly. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the accessibility rules soundbite a series of short podcasts where people with disabilities explain their impairments, what barriers they encounter… Continue Reading Alex Umstead discusses autism, flickering screens, and keyboard use

Nic's websiteA11yrules PodcastHemingwayapp.comhttps://accessibilityinsights.io/https://www.deque.com/axe/

This week:  Digital Accessibility How to make your digital products more accessible. Think data visualization, color choices, alternative text, screen readers and more. Laura Patch from Sierra Club reveals the details. (Part of our 20NTC coverage) Inclusive Design  Nic Steenhout … Continue reading →

JL tells us about sites that don’t make it easy to avoid mistakes, and don’t handle mistakes well, make it hard for folks who are dyslexic. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. And you’re listening to the Accessibility Rules Soundbite, a series of short podcasts… Continue Reading JL Sorak talks about dyslexia and how sites handle mistakes

Devon tells us how depression can cause brain fog and it impacts everything she does on the web. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic: Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout and you’re listening to the Accessibility Rules Soundbite, a series of short podcasts where people with disabilities explain their impairments and… Continue Reading Devon Persing talks about depression and brain fog

Patrick tells us that having headings that describe the content on the page is critical for screen reader users. He feels proper hierarchy is nice, but not as important. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic: Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout and you’re listening to the Accessibility Rules Soundbite, a series… Continue Reading Patrick Burke talks about headings and screen readers

Emily states: "Hardest part of the job is coming up with solutions. It's one thing to identify what's wrong, it's entirely another thing to give clients an alternative solution that's accessible to start with but also reasonable for them to implement." Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/ Thanks to Gatsby for being a sponsor of the show. Gatsby is a modern website framework that builds performance into every website by leveraging the latest web technologies. Create blazing fast, compelling apps and websites without needing to become a performance expert. Make sure you have a look at their site: https://www.gatsbyjs.org Transcript Nic: Welcome to the Accessibility Rules Podcast. This is episode 90. It's going to be a bit different because it's been so hot where I've been that I could not go without turning off the air, ac unit, which means I could not actually record without making airplane noises in the back so I've invited Christopher Schmitt, a colleague of mine and previous guest of the show to be the guest host. So, I'll leave that to them in a moment. I'm Nic Steenhout and I talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility. If you're interested in accessibility, hey, this show's for you. To get today's show notes or transcript, head out to https://a11yrules.com. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Twilio, connect the world with the leading platform for voice, SMS, and video at Twilio.com. I also want to thank Gatsby, a new sponsor of the show. Gatsby is a modern website framework that builds performance into every website by leveraging the latest web technologies. Create blazing fast and compelling websites without needing to become a performance expert. Christopher: Hello, everyone. My name is Christopher Schmitt. I am not Nic but I do welcome you to the Accessibility Rules podcast. Nic can't make it to the podcast this week, he is out traveling where it's so hot he can't actually have great audio. It's my understanding. So he asked me to guest host today. So, I'm really honored to do that. And, with us, today as a guest is Emily Lewis. Hello, Emily. Emily: Hi, Christopher. Christopher: Hey, great. You are also where it's really hot. Emily: It is. I'm in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I think we're going to hit 100 F today. Christopher: Oh, well, nice. Emily: But, I have air conditioning so… Christopher: Yeah, we have air … we have silent running air conditioning, which is… which I am grateful every day as I am living in Austin, Texas now, so… yeah. We are actually celebrating the 28th day of 100 degrees Fahrenheit  in the summer. Emily: Ah, good times. Climate change. Christopher: Yeah, definitely. I think we have a parade a few months ago out here. But, yeah. Let's just get started with you so… Welcome to the podcast, Emily. To get started just tell me one thing most people don't know about you. Emily: I don't know. I'm a pretty transparent person and I've been fairly public within the web community in the past 10 years or so, so I guess if they don't know it about me I don't want them to. So… Christopher: That's Ari. I must admit, we have known each other for a long time, right? Emily: Yeah, yeah. Christopher: Right, I'm just checking in to make sure we are right on that one. We've known each other for a while. Emily: Full disclosure. Christopher: Did you know when we first met? Because I'm terrible with this. Emily: I do. You reached out to me to ask me to do one of your online summits. Christopher:  Oh really? Emily: … and then I happened to be going to South by Southwest later that year and you and Ari took us to BBQ. We didn't know you and it was a long road through backwoods and I was with Jason and he and I were looking at each other like, “I hope these people are safe” Christopher: And it turned out we're not. We …. No, actually, Texas chainsaw massacre was filmed like 45 minutes from where downtown Austin is so… Emily: I believe it. Christopher: So we usually do a … if we have people from out of town we … Ari, my girlfriend and so we should do… we invite people to BBQ. Especially for South by Southwest. So it's not... South by Southwest is not the web geek mecha it used to be, right? Emily: No, not anymore. Christopher: So that's like… I don't know… 80,000 people descend upon Austin whereas when I first started going it was more like 4,000 people going. So, it's a little different. Different scale of economies there. Emily: Yeah Christopher: So...And so yeah, one of the things we do… and, you know, you did a great job at the summit and you just have a great personality on stage. You're so thorough and I just… you know… every time… because, before accessibility, before working with Nic and Knowbility we ran a conference, a web conference company and every time I could, you know, I thought you'd be a good fit. I'd try to get you involved in some way, in some projects like that. So, just because you're very thorough and you have great stage performance. I mean, it's not a performance, I don't know what it is but it's just you have a … going on stage you do a great job. So.. yeah. Emily: Ah, thank you. It doesn't feel that way inside. Christopher: No? Oh no, it definitely does. It's like, I kind of … I tried stand up comedy and just all the little things. I think everyone else is now because every comic ha a podcast now and they talk about the process a lot more than they could, like in the ‘90s and whatever. And so, it's just amazing how much little things they have to do to win over a crowd and all the things they have to think about when you do that too. So, it's kind of refreshing in a way when you think about it. We are just speaking at conferences isn't our … it' normal in our industry but for a lot of other industries it's not normal. Emily: Right Christopher: Because our industry change so much. So, like,  when I was first starting out about it, there was 2 ways you could tell people you know what you're doing. One, you could actually write books about it or you go to conferences about it and then somewhere along the way something called Blogs happened. So that was networking. Right...so enough about me and all. So I'm honored to guest host the podcast with you, actually. Emily: Thank you Christopher: So, yeah. There are many definitions of the definitions on web accessibility. How do you define it? Emily: For me, it's really simple and aligns with my new job with Knowbility. It's equitable access. Making it possible for anybody to access digital information, digital experiences, commerce communities. All of it. Just making it possible. Christopher: So is there a difference between equal access and equitable access? Emily: Well, I think equal access equality is based on the same for everybody and equitable is providing the means for people to have accessibility maybe based on different needs. I think that's accurate. It's not … equitable is not making it the same for everybody, it's about building experiences that different people can use different ways but they can still fundamentally achieve the same goal. Christopher: Okay, sure. Okay. And where does your role fall within the work of web accessibility? Emily: So, right now I've only just recently shifted my career to really, really focus on accessibility so right now I'm doing auditing and assessments of sites and making recommendations for improvements. I'm getting to do a little bit of client support and client training. And, most recently I got to do some usability studies which were just awesome. And, it hasn't shown up too much because I'm still new to the job but advocacy and education that I think that is going to be a big part. So, social media, community engagement, writing, presenting… Christopher: So you're really excited about usability testing that you did. What about it did you like? Emily: I've never had a chance to watch someone interact with a website with speech to text software or eye-tracking software or you know if you've ever done like a ...you're testing screen magnification on our browsers we just resize the text but there's actual screen magnification software that's very different and I got to watch someone use that on their phone which was mind-blowing. So, just seeing first hand how someone is using a site in a different way than I ever have or seen anybody. So, it was eye-opening Christopher: How did you become aware of web accessibility and it's importance? Emily: It really kind of was just a job. One of my first jobs in web development was for a US federal agency. The USDA which is focused on agriculture, and I was a webmaster for one of their conservation sites and the bulk of that job as a webmaster, which tells you how old I am, was keeping the site up to date with 508 standards. So USDA staff would update the site and edit it and do things and I would go behind them to make sure that what they had done met those accessibility standards. It was kind of like an ongoing or rolling audit job. Christopher: Nice Emily: Yeah, so I at the time didn't really have a complete appreciation for the accessibility part of it. Like, I knew it was about accessibility but I didn't have that kind of connection I was just talking about with the user experience. But, I liked … it was a set of rules and I was a new developer trying to figure out how to be a developer so a lot of rules made a lot of sense and made my job easier. So, yeah, but I was attracted to the standards aspect of it before I really understood the accessibility aspect. Christopher: And do you feel like there's a difference between usability and accessibility? Emily: Well, yeah. Something can be technically accessible and not really usable. So, I feel like… my partner Jason - my boyfriend, they don't make a word for people who are in their mid 40's and aren't married but he does usability work for the government but accessibility is a part of it. So, fundamentally things have to meet accessibility and then on top of that, it goes through usability testing. So I guess that accessibility could be viewed as a part of usability. Christopher: Yeah I always have a tough definition there. There's a definition about it that separates usability from accessibility but when I started out it was always tough to separate the two as two distinct items. Because, I felt like if it's not accessible it's not usable, right? You can't have a good user experience if it's not accessible. It was always just like… it still is the barrier of what the difference is between those two. Emily: I honestly feel like our industry is still defining it. I mean, I see it with Jason all the time with his work and he works with the government which are really large projects with lots and lots of people and they're still trying to define this stuff. So, yeah, I think it's ongoing. It's sort of evolving as we understand this stuff. Christopher: Right, and our industry changes so fast, right? Emily: Oh my god yes. Christopher: 5 years ago we were not even talking about tablets. Like, you know. Emily: Yeah, and there's going to be so much more. I mean, as we are seeing now people having these … Echos and … I don't know, I don't have them in my house but these voice-activated devices and, you know, the more that stuff evolves the more our role, our jobs and the aspects of accessibility and usability are going to change too. It's hard to challenge it. Christopher: Yeah, it is. The conventional UIs, I mean with Echos, yeah, That's a bit of trouble, yeah. So, I do have them in my house So, um… Emily: They're watching you. Christopher: Yeah, I call them peeping Toms. That's what I call them. So… but, it is kind of weird but it's basically how much I hate light switches. And so that's why. I just like walking into a room and like, alright, turn it on and then sometimes I get a cold or the flu and you know, your throats sore or whatever and you're like “Man, I wish I had a light switch right now!” Emily: So that would be the thing that most people don't know about you. Your hatred of light switches. But now they do. Christopher: Now they do, yeah. I don't know what they know or don't already. Just, yeah, so...alright. What barriers did you or are you facing in terms of implementing accessibility? And how are you getting over them? Emily: Well, I mean, in my job now that I'm focused on accessibility it's a little different than when I ran an agency and accessibility was just … it really wasn't a priority for my job. So, today I feel like the hardest part of my job is coming up with solutions for some of the sites and interfaces that we work with because it's one thing to identify what's wrong. It's totally a different thing to give them alternatives solutions that's accessible to start with but also pretty reasonable for them to implement and on some level I can't help still being a client. You know, having worked with clients for so long. Like, you still have to support their overall design in business school. Christopher: Right Emily: I think that's incredibly hard. Christopher: Yeah I mean, it's .. it was like, Friday, I left work and I was trying to figure out in the back of my head … we tabulate what we do each day but they're kind of broad strokes. We don't have to do like a timesheet like what we do every hour and so I was trying to figure out where did my afternoon go. And, part of it, I realized on my way home I was like, “Oh yeah, I had to deconstruct this bad code example the client had used and then try to reformulate it into an accessible standards-based solution” and it took forever. Emily: Yup Christopher: Just to do that, right? And, it was a total time sink. Emily: Yup Christopher: Not like… I mean, it was good. It was a good challenge to do it but it still takes a long time to do that if it's not something easy code. It's amazing. And, I said this sarcastically last week. I was just impressed with the ability of the developers to avoid Semantic HTML. Emily: Yeah, I mean… Christopher: Yeah Emily: I was working on that same system with you and it was just, every day it was just an “Oh, that never would have occurred to me to do that.” Christopher: Yeah. Exactly. It was kind of crazy. But, yeah, I think that's also kind of our … like what we do is a benefit too. It's like we actually give alternatives to clients. I guess that's what we … that's kind of neat too. Emily: Yeah and I also like… you know we work with some really, really smart people who have a lot of experience and so, you know, watching what they do. How they make suggestions and solutions, really helps me expand what I might have considered in the first place, as a way to make a problem access… you know, solve it and make it accessible. So, yeah. I feel really lucky we have a lot of people who have so much more experience than I do. Christopher: What is your favorite word? Emily: Well, I don't know if this is like a PG-13 podcast so Nic can … I'll give you two options for Nic to choose from, but Christopher, you know this. Fuck is probably my favorite word. But, for the PG-13 listeners - ice cream. Ice cream makes me so happy. If someone says ice cream I'm instantly looking forward to it. Christopher: Oh man, you are going to enjoy Access-U, which is the conference that Knowbility puts on. It's for practical training purposes in accessibility. Ah, for the last two years they've brought an ice cream truck to the event. So, you will… Hopefully I made you happy and looking forward to May already. Emily: Alright now I'm like - I've got to get some ice cream today. Christopher: So, yeah. So like, I feel bad because Nic asked me this question and I just… I whiffed at it and so I didn't answer the question. And so, now that I have a second chance of sorts. If you don't mind me saying what my word is? Emily: Oh yeah, do it. Christopher: It's moist. Emily: Oh, you like that word? Christopher: Yeah, that's exactly why I like that word. Because everyone hates it. So, I feel like it says what it is in a way. It's like… it's kind of gross. Yeah. Emily: I like it for cake. Anything else just makes me think of humidity and discomfort. Christopher: Yeah, well I grew up in Florida. So I feel… Emily: Yeah, you love that, right? Christopher: Yeah, I just can't wait. Yeah. The move from Florida to Ohio which didn't happen in the end… I was just like, “What the heck. What's going on over here?” Christopher: What was your greatest achievement in terms of web accessibility? Emily: I really don't feel like I've achieved it yet. I mean, I've been doing front-end development, CMS development, project management for digital products for like 23 years or something like that and I've always built with standards of accessibility in mind but it's never… it's never been the focus. I've only just done that shift a few months ago so I haven't had a chance to do anything great. Christopher: I see ...I see some of your issue reports. I think you've done some great issue reports. Emily: You know, I will say that I used to have a podcast myself and it started, I guess about 8 or 9 years ago which was kind of early and we had transcripts right from the beginning. That was really important to me. Christopher: Yeah Emily: I don't know if that's a great achievement but it was a commitment that I felt was important. Christopher: Yeah, just think about how many podcasts there are that don't have transcripts. Emily: I don't understand that. Christopher: Yeah Emily: I really don't understand that. Christopher: Yeah, I felt bad because I don't have transcripts for my own podcasts that I used to run and I just … there was all this content that was just waiting to be discovered and all this content that's not been discovered. I mean, even though they have video of a podcast that they turn into audio and they don't have a transcript for it. Emily: Mmhmm, well I mean, it's an accessibility issue. But, there's business reasons for it. I mean, Google eats that up. Your podcast gets a tonne more exposure. I mean, our podcast was getting high… high up in the Google search results for almost all of our web topics. Because we had lots and lots of keywords. Christopher: Yeah. Emily: And also helps you consume the content in a different way. Like, maybe you can't listen to it and you want to scan the transcript for saline information. It just makes sense. Christopher: Yeah, I think so. Okay, cool. Well, that's awesome. Well, that's a good place for us to wrap up for now. But, thanks for being on the Accessibility Rules podcast. Emily: Thanks for having me. Christopher:  Okay, awesome. Until next time. Nic: Thanks for listening. Quick reminder, the transcript for this and all other shows are available on the show's website at https://a11yrules.com Big shoutout to my sponsors and my patrons. Without your support, I couldn't not continue to do the show. Do visit patreon.com/steenhout if you want to support the accessibility rules podcast. Thank you.

Sveta tells us “We are often told that bad captions are better than nothing, but they cause cognitive dissonance for us [deaf folks].” Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic: Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. You’re listening to the Accessibility Rules Soundbite, a series of short podcasts where people with disabilities… Continue Reading Sveta Kouznetsova talks about the importance of transcripts and captions

EJ Tells us about how Cerebral Palsy and how it may cause cramps, forcing him to shift how he interacts with devices. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic:    Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. You’re listening to the Accessibility Rules soundbite. A series of shot podcasts where people with disabilities explain… Continue Reading EJ Mason talks about CP and how cramps impact internet use

In which Liz Jackson tells us she wishes people viewed accessibility as an opportunity to engage, rather than a legal compliance thing. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/twilio Diversity event tickets: https://go.twilio.com/margaret/ Transcript Transcript Nic:    Welcome to the accessibility rules podcast. This is episode 79. I'm Nic Steenhout, and I talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility. If you're interested in accessibility hey, this shows for you. To get today's show notes or transcript head out to https://a11yrules.com. Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Twilio connect the world with the leading platform for voice, SMS, and video at Twilio.com. In this episode, I'm continuing my conversation with Liz Jackson. Welcome back, Liz. Liz:    Thanks, again for having me. Nic:    Thank you. So, the last show was really great. We talked about quite a few things that are not necessarily the usual topics of this podcast, including disability culture friction and nothing about us without us, so that's been really powerful stuff. We finished last week on a great positive thought of “Let's make this fun.” Let's flip that a little bit and ask you, Liz… What's your greatest frustration about accessibility? Liz:    My greatest frustration with accessibility is I think the fact that people view it as a box to be checked. That there's a minimum amount that you need to do and that I think is fundamentally lacking in creativity. I'm not saying that that's what accessibility is. I'm saying that that is the perception of what it is. I think people view it a lot in terms of legal compliance. And I just… I wish we could sort of view it instead as an opportunity to engage. And I'm going to pause for a second because… you'll hear why. Nic:    You were saying we should view accessibility as an opportunity to engage rather than as a compliance thing. Liz:    Yeah, I think right now the way accessibility is being done is oftentimes at the exclusion of actual disabled people. I oftentimes use the example… I have sort of an obsession with National ADAPT, and so I oftentimes use the example of; Okay, so how did… What happened with that original gang of 19 and bus lifts? And this is really the thing that I saw. So, what happened was, in the early 1970s, right, this is the first time in history that disabled people were actually escaping institutions, right? So out in society, they looked really radical. And they wanted something very radical. The wanted access. They wanted accessibility, and they wanted it in the form of bus lifts on busses. And they went about it in a radical way. They parked their bodies in front of buses and intersections in Denver, and they protested for access. And, at the time society was probably incredibly frightened of these bodies that they hadn't previously experienced. But, if you look at sort of what happened in the years after what you see is that suddenly people stopped perceiving those bodies as being so radical. They became accustomed to seeing disabled people out in society, so, they became less radical, and their ideas became less radical. People started thinking, “Yeah, access is a human right. Buses should come with bus lifts.” And, ultimately buses did start coming with bus lifts and this idea of buses on buses, it was so potent that in the 90s when the  ADA was written buses were written into the ADA. And, I think for me, it is. It's very easy to look at this and sort of view it as a success, but I actually see something a little bit different which is that the very moment that bus lifts were written into the ADA, at least it feels to me, that the national adapt and the people who fought so valiantly for it were no longer needed in the thing that they advocated for. And so, I think in this work that we're doing I wonder how often we are actually inadvertently advocating for our own exclusion by advocating for our own inclusion. And so, for me, the question is how is it that in web access and in these various things that we're fighting for, how is it that we can sustainably advocate to participate. And so for me, it's that mantra. It's design with disability. It's nothing about us without us. How is it that we can ensure that the things that we fight radically for don't turn into things that are empathetically done for us? Nic:    So, I often say that one of my ultimate goals is to do such a good job as to put myself out of a job. So, you know, do enough advocacy and do enough education and do enough work in the accessibility field that this kind of work would not be required anymore. Because, everything would be accessible. Everything would be done with an inclusive mindset which kind of closes the circle, because if you're starting to think of a culture of inclusion, you have to think about getting people with disabilities involved. So, even if I do manage to put myself out of a job as an accessibility specialist I think that the job will be truly, properly done when even though I may not be an accessibility specialist anymore I would still be included in the discussion and in the design phase, and everything to make sure that people with disabilities are part and parcel with the process. Not just an afterthought, or, not just something we do for them. Liz:    Yeah, I think… I think that even in this idea of putting… wanting to put yourself out of business… I think there's a part of me that worries that… are we too in the frame of mind of problems that need to be solved and are we separating culture from access too much? I think I'm someone… I view you as someone who I think is deeply creative and I don't think for a creative person the work ever stops. Nic:    Totally. Liz:    And so for me, the question is, okay, well, say on this very logistical side, yeah you do put yourself out of business. Okay, so then the question becomes “What's next?” Nic:    Absolutely. What's next. Product design, which you've been quite involved with… How can your experience in product design benefit people involved with web accessibility? What lesson could you share from learning about product design that web accessibility people can implement? Think about? Liz:    When there does seem to be a product that's framed around creating accessor a product that's inclusive of disabled people, when it's put out into the world it's oftentimes framed through the lens of empathy. And, I think that there are other ways that we can perceive the works in this space. We don't always have to view disability through this empathetic lens. And, so, I actually have been spending the last couple of years pursuing my own product. More… it's a little bit less about the product, and it's a little bit more about a statement of why… what this work can sound like in terms of tone. And, so the story behind the product is… a couple of years ago I was at South by Southwest, and there were some major accessibility problems. And, it ended up leading me to get into this contentious back and forth with the head of South by Southwest, this guy named [Hugh Forest? 08:27]. And, in one of the phone calls, I basically told him I was going to create a product that was going to basically shed light on the accessibility issues of South by, and to my surprise he was really supportive of it. I had some people who were supportive all along, and I ended up going back to South by this year with an app. It's really my answer to craptions. So a craption is basically those pesky errors that happen in automated captions. I call it thisten, so it's basically ‘this' and ‘listen,' for me, I sort of see it as the physical act of listening. And, you know, I think this is one of the conversations we've been having about the product. Typically when somebody looks at this product, they're going to say, okay, well this is definitely something that benefits somebody who is hard of hearing or deaf. But, I'm saying no. We've got to flip this. This is a product that can not succeed without a massive untapped pool of deaf and hard of hearing talent. And, I think to myself - okay, so then people are going to frame this product as something that solves a problem. And what is the problem that it solves? Well, traditionally I think that society would say this solves the problem, almost, of deaf people. But, that for me is not the problem. For me, the problem is this solves the problem of conferences and events failing to take into account accessibility. And so, I think, every step of the way I'm trying to shift the way our objects and our products are positioned in society and I'm just trying to make sure people fully understand what is it that we are actually solving for. I'm not solving for a deaf person. If I did, I'm sure a deaf person would tell me to go F myself. They don't need me. What I'm solving for is a fundamental, societal problematic lack of access in some of the most influential spaces in the world. Nic:    What do you think the number one reason is that most people fail to take accessibility into account or fail to succeed with implementing accessibility? Liz:    This has really been a passion point for me. And, it's one of the reasons why now I'm trying really hard too. In design schools wherever there is a class that teaches accessibility, I'm also trying to implement a disabilities course work alongside it. Because I think people are learning the ‘how' without the ‘why' and it's… I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding there in what it does, what it does in the long run, what it does in the short term, who it impacts and how it shifts our lives in small but very profound ways. And, it's learning about why do we think about the way we do about x or y. And, I think this is the thing. It's like I love disability. This is the passion of my life, and I think… I look at design, and I see… a designer might, at a very young age, realize ‘I have a knack for this,' but they don't think that they can just design. They know ‘okay, I've got a knack for this. I've got to go to school. I've got to educate myself,' and then they usually encounter me as they're continuing their education in a conference or educational setting. This is a life-long commitment, and yet these are the very people who they sort of turn to disability, and they think they just know. And, I think they think they know because they've been taught to feel a certain way about it, whether it's inspirational or empathetic or whatever the case may be. Whatever these sort of societal narratives are. And so, for me, it's about, well, how do we as disabled people how do we intervene in that sort of expectation of ‘we just know?' How do we intervene and say, ‘No, disability is a creative process.' It is something that you can be passionate about, you can love, and you can commit to. And, you can have ongoing education, and I think the majority of designers don't even know disability studies exist as a field. And so, for me, if you can teach people that this is not just a portfolio or a brand enhancer but rather this is something you can endeavor in and be passionate about and delight in… I think we would have a much easier time. And, I think the thing that sells it short is this frame that we've historically done of just framing something as: simple problem, simple solution. If we could break away from that and delve into the complexity, I think people would get really wrapped up in it. Nic:    There's been a lot on Twitter, quite a few threads on unpopular tech opinions. Would you have an unpopular accessibility/disability opinion to share? Something maybe controversial or something that you think you really believe in but other people might not necessarily agree with. Liz:    Yeah. Oh, do I have one or do you say you have one? Nic:    No, do you have one? Liz:     I suppose I think my thinking about wanting to incorporate disability studies into the accessibility conversation. I think… I don't think it's unpopular in that people don't like it. I think more often than not people feel very drawn to it and can almost sort of… sort of… once its...I'm unable to articulate it, they feel a bit of relief. Like, yeah, I think that's sort of the missing piece. But I think it is unpopular in the fact that we didn't previously consider it. And, so, maybe it's something that just needs to gain a little bit of traction. But, I suppose I fundamentally believe that if I do my… perform the role that I set out to do, which is incorporating a culture into the work that you're doing. I fundamentally believe that I will make your work easier for you to do.  And, so, for me, I think even though I'm not tech savvy, I can barely find my way through the internet. The thing that I'm trying to show is a commitment to a handful of people. And, so, who are those people? I think those people are allies. People who are doing this work that makes the internet accessible. I think I'm also trying to amplify the work of academics, the people who are building the theory and doing the work that has long existed inside of paywalls, how is it that we can bring that out into the mainstream? And, so, if I say sort of I'm trying to honor the friction of my disability I also feel like I'm trying to honor all of those who came before me and have been doing this work much longer than I have, and who are much more adept at doing the physical things that I just don't have the capabilities of doing. I think if anything I like to look and see all of our roles in this and figure out, ‘how is it that I can take a little of the burden from this person so they can thrive better?' Because that's what… I think the allies have been doing, that's what the academics have been doing for me and for others as well. And so it's like, “Okay, how do we sort of complete this circle?” Nic:    How do we? Indeed. My… one of the thinking I have around accessibility itself and one of my frustration is that so many designers and web designers and web developers today don't even know that it exists let alone know about alt text, and I've only been advocating for alt text since the mid 1990s. So, it's not a new topic for me and yet kids coming out of a computer science course should know the basics. They don't even know the basics exist in terms of accessibility, and I want to see that topic taught in computer science and design and development courses, boot camps… I want at least some people to have a basic understanding. And, in some ways it seems like what you're talking about doing is post-graduate work rather than entry level, 101, 100 level courses. So, I'm not sure how to reconcile what you're talking about,which I think is mission critical, but also, make sure that people at least have a basic understanding and awareness of. Liz:    Yeah, I think… and I think maybe I might see this in a different way, I think … it's so easy to get caught up in language in disability, I think… and there's really 2 specific places I see this where I feel very protective of the language and that is the word mobility and the word accessibility. If you look at the word mobility, for me it means wheelchairs and access and all those different things but I sort of feel like now the word mobility is evolving to sort of mean autonomous vehicles and this other thing that exists outside of disability, and so as this word is being brought in to mean so much more and so many more things suddenly the things that I think it fundamentally means to me become a small piece of that. And so, say you want to teach the basics of accessibility as initial course work in… maybe even in high school or in a first-year design school. The thing that I find myself fearful of is that I feel like the word accessibility has become… because it has become this sort of trendy, increasingly trendy word, I feel like it's broadening to mean so many things that even to sort of teach the basics of accessibility I worry that's going to sort of be taken away. Does that make sense? Nic:     Yes. That makes sense. So how do we… how do we teach these topics that are mission critical if we want an accessible web? A web usable by all regardless of disability, without diluting the word accessibility? Liz:    And that's… I think that's the thing that I'm really grappling with right now. ‘Coz it's not just mobility, it's not just accessibility there's other words too, they're just not coming to mind at the moment. But, I think, I remember at some point in my work I think, “Well, what is disability?” Disability fundamentally is the absence of a trend, and I remember I wanted to create this thing called the absence of trend report where we sort of just report on things that exist. Like, regardless of trend. I think I do find myself a little bit fearful that if accessibility does become a trend then that means there's an end to it. And, then people are going to lose interest and then they'll kind of fall into another space. And so, for me, there's this way in which I want to just sort of pull back and be like, no, this is… this exists regardless of whatever feelings we may be putting on to it, whatever momentum and whatever CEO is spousing it's virtues. It exists regardless of that. And, so, how do we take ownership of it and say… I don't want to say it's small because it's big, it's everything, but there's basics. There are fundamentals that the people who are spousing their virtues probably don't even know. And I think I find that scary and I want to figure out how do we protect it. Nic:    Certainly something to think about. I'm grappling with that as well. So, hopefully, you'll wake up one morning and go “Ah ha! I have the answer” and [crosstalk 22:03] able to share that. Liz:    Yeah, I hope so. I think it's important. You know, it's not something I take lightly. And I can't imagine you take lightly either. Nic:    No, no I don't. Liz, let's wrap this up with a final question for you. What's the one thing people should remember about accessibility? Let's focus that specifically. What should people remember about web accessibility? Liz:    For me, the one thing that people should know about web accessibility is it's a learning process. We may not realize that we need it until we need it. We may not we realize that it's there until our failure has left somebody out. We may start to hear the word and not necessarily know what it means and it's okay to not know and it's okay to have been naive. But, once you know and once you are aware that this is something that exists it is something that I believe we have a responsibility to better understand. Especially if we're creating things that go out into the world. And so, for me, I… if your design process is a learning process, if everything that you do is built upon everything you've done before then I hope that you will treat web accessibility the same way. I'm no better or worse than the next person. My initial website, seven years ago, was wildly inaccessible and yet now it has become a predominant focus of my work. And the same can be for you and you can feel really empowered in it. Nic:    Thank you, Liz. That was a really good thought to finish on. Liz:    Thank you. Nic:    Liz Jackson, thank you and go out there and continue doing the good work you're doing. Thank you for that. Liz:    You too. You too. You're doing some pretty profound stuff and I'm honored to be on your podcast. Nic:    Thank you. Liz:    Thank you. Nic:    Thanks for listening. Quick reminder, the transcript for this and all other shows are available on the show's website at https://a11yrules.com Big shoutout to my sponsors and my patrons. Without your support, I couldn't not continue to do the show. Do visit patreon.com/steenhout if you want to support the accessibility rules podcast. Thank you.

Greg tells us that pages with too much text or too many moving elements make it nearly impossible for him to access the content. Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic:    Hi, I’m Nic Steenhout. You’re listening to the Accessibility Rules soundbite. A series of short podcasts where people with… Continue Reading Greg Norman talks about content overload and cognitive impairments

Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Transcript Nic: Hi. I’m Nic Steenhout, and you are listening to the Accessibility Rules Soundbite, a series of short podcasts where people with disabilities explain their impairments and what barriers they encounter on the web. Nic: Thanks to Tenon for sponsoring the transcript for this… Continue Reading Cherry Thompson talks about cognitive impairments and web accessibility

Chris is a front-end developer based in Detroit, MI. He tells us, among other things, that learning about accessibility is an ongoing process. Transcript Nic:    Welcome to the Accessibility Rules Podcast. This is episode 70. I’m Nic Steenhout and I talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility. If you’re interested… Continue Reading E70 – Interview with Chris DeMars – Part 1

In which Ire tells us that she thinks convincing framework developers to implement accessibility will have more impact than trying to change individual developers’ minds. Transcript Nic: Welcome to the a11y Rules podcast. This is episode 69. I am Nic Steenhout, and I talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility.… Continue Reading E69 – Interview with Ire Aderinokun – Part 2

Continuing my chat with Beth. We discuss, among other things, accessibility as a coding challenge vs having to meet tight deadlines – and how sometimes developers chose to do things the way they know to meet these deadlines. Transcript Nic: Welcome to the A11y Rules podcast. This is episode 67. I’m Nic Steenhout and I… Continue Reading E67 – Interview with Beth Raduenzel – Part 2

Beth is an accessibility specialist and a UX interaction designer. She was part of an award winning team at United. She compares acceptance of the need for accessibility as the 5 stages of grief. Transcript Nic: Welcome to the A11y Rules Podcast. This is episode 66. I’m Nic Steenhout, and I talk with people involved… Continue Reading E66 – Interview with Beth Raduenzel – Part 1

Marcy tells us that it’s important for folks in the accessibility community to listen to developers’ needs. She also states that we ought to be more positive, and to stop making people feel bad about accessibility! Transcript Nic:    Welcome to the Accessibility Rules Podcast. This is episode 64. I’m Nic Steenhout and I talk with… Continue Reading E64 – Interview with Marcy Sutton – Part 1

Eric tells us accessibility shouldn’t be just technical curiosity. It’s about people. Transcript Nic: Welcome to the Accessibility Rules podcast. This is Episode 63. I’m Nic Steenhout and I talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility. If you’re interested in accessibility, hey! This show is for you. To get today’s… Continue Reading E63 – Interview with Eric Bailey – Part 2

Eric tells us, among other things, that relationship building is a good way to get passed the hostility some people have towards accessibility. Transcript Nic: Welcome to the A11y Rules Podcast. You’re listening to episode 62. I’m Nic Steenhout, and I talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility. If you’re… Continue Reading E62 – Interview with Eric Bailey – Part 1

Transcript Nic: Welcome to the A11y Rules podcast. I’m Nic Steenhout and this is a special episode for the 2018 International podcast day. I normally talk with people involved in one way or another with web accessibility. But today, I find it important to talk about podcast accessibility. There are a lot of podcasts out… Continue Reading 2018 International Podcast Day Special

“It’s a frustration of mine that too often when somebody asks me a question about accessibility, the only answer I can really give if I want to be succinct is, “It depends”.” Thanks to Twilio for sponsoring the transcript for this episode. Make sure you have a look at: Their blog: https://www.twilio.com/blog Their channel on… Continue Reading E54 – Interview with Nic Steenhout – Part 2

In a role reversal, for the first episode of the second year of the show – I’m the one being interviewed

Nic Steenhout is a long term A11y (accessibility) advocate who works remotely for Knowbility, an Austin, TX based non-profit. In this episode Scott and Nicolas talk about various kinds of accessibility from the web to mobile devices to wheelchair ramps! He's also the host of the A11y Rules podcast. https://twitter.com/vavroom https://a11yrules.com/

Ian, a developer, tells us how some color combinations, notably orange and grey, can make content disappear for him. He also explains how restricting zoom on mobile pages mean he can’t read the content on those pages. Transcript Nic: Hi. I’m Nic Steenhout. You’re listening to the A11y Rules Soundbite, a series of short podcasts… Continue Reading Ian Littman talks about orange and zoom restrictions

Michelle McQuigge is a blind reporter with the Canadian Press. Many organizations do press release with images of text on Twitter, making her job impossible. She also wishes designers and developers to know that if you don’t implement accessibility, you’re going to lose big! Transcript Nic: Hi. I’m Nic Steenhout. You’re listening to the Accessibility… Continue Reading Michelle McQuigge tells us why she can’t do her job without alt text

Talking with Taylor Hunt, who calls himself a webspinner and a lapsed artist. He has ADHD and tells us about the impact of animations and no underlines on links. Transcript Nic: Hi. I’m Nic Steenhout, and you’re listening to the Accessibility Rules Soundbite. It’s a series of short podcasts where people with disabilities explain their… Continue Reading Taylor Hunt speaks about the impact of ADHD

Desi Mazdur talks to us about having RSI and relying on speech recognition software to navigate the web. Transcript Nic: Hi. I’m Nic Steenhout. You’re listening to the Accessibility Rules Soundbite, a series of short podcasts where people with disabilities explain their impairments and what barriers they encounter on the web. This week, I’m speaking… Continue Reading Desi Mazdur speaks about searching web pages with speech recognition software

In this introductory episode of the A11y Rules Soundbite, Denis Boudreau speaks about color blindness and how it affects his day-to-day activities on the web. Transcript: Nic: Hi. I’m Nic Steenhout. You’re listening to the Accessibility Rules Soundbite. A series of short podcasts where people with disabilities explain their impairments and what barriers they encounter… Continue Reading Denis Boudreau speaks about color blindness and accessibility

“But the bottom line is, accessibility is actually a challenge for coders, and I’ve yet to meet a coder that doesn’t like a good challenge.” Disabled individuals account for over a billion people worldwide. This represents the world’s largest minority on the Web, with $220 billion in discretionary spending power in the United States alone. The post Web Accessibility with Nic Steenhout appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.