A bunch of grown adults playing make believe! Join Mack (the DM), Madison (the sneaky and elusive rogue Elora), Will (the class-diverse orphan named Locraes), Sam (playing Quinten, the curious and cloistered monk) Kevin (the brawny, frontline Fighter Brendarr Braveaxe) and Thomas (a scarred lizardfolk Ranger Drax) as they traipse about the world of Alhur, haphazardly stumbling into events they probably have no business being involved in! But perhaps they will be just the heroes Alhur needs! Follow us on Twitter @HazardsRoll Want to donate to keeps us creating more content? Head over to patreon.com/hazardsroll! And always: be wary of the Hazards of the Roll!
Hot on the trail of princess Milda, the party makes its way to Erie island! Tired from the storm and sea battle, a quick rest before setting out into seemingly uncharted territory. Things however are more complex on this island of the lost....what mysteries will unfold in this unique setting! Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
The battle on the boat rages...along side a storm on the sea! Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Bombs and boats! Never a good combination. But the journey to Erie Island must continue! Can Duuk handle to high seas? Is the ocean a place for a giant cat?! Is the seaweed necessary?!?! Find out in this weeks episode of our Vin'Tas Campaign! Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Having dealt with the explosive rat, the party decides to take what few clues they have and report in to King Sandar. Convincing the King and Akost to allow them to continue searching, the crew heads back to the tower to continue the search....and wind up in another pickle! Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
The search for princess Milda is only beginning! And the party finds some very strange clues. Is there a connections between the royalty and the blighted Black Rose organization???? Only time will tell! Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
The opening of what is sure to be a massively fun adventure! Come see Nala (Madison) Duuk (Thomas) and Arevir (Mack) get ready to take on a mercenary mission like no other. And maybe cleanse a little blight? Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
While things in our personal lives are still up in the air, we are playing a "side" campaign! Aaaaaand with a different GM? In episode 0 we will meet the characters and learn a little of Vin'Tas. Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
We are back! To deal with the great Desert Wolf Helixia. And how will the party keep more Mirathisians from leaving to wander the desert? And is that Mirathis on the horizon?!?! Tune in to a very fun episode! Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
A quick little public service announcement to all of our friends and fans
Bo'Rug Dunesmasher! Is gone, along with the hag Nixta who was controlling him and his camp. While some tensions have been relieved, more have arisen, and the party is one step closer to Mirathis and finding out what it means to be a follower of Illivar. Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
After days of break neck, near death fighting, things come to a head. Although things don't look great, sometimes all you need is a rock... Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Elora and Quinten utilize the goblins to create a diversion while they attempt to find and free Drax and Brendar. While they do find them, they've also stepped into another hairy situation! Will the Hag get the better of them this time? Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Operation rescue! With half the group down and out, there is no choice but to infiltrate again. But will the party play it smart this time? Or are we lookin at the fabled TPK!!!! Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Still deep in the midst of combat, the party is literally fighting for their lives. But a new "player" enters the board to shake things up! Feel the terror, but don't look away, maybe everything will be ok? Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Part 2 of our special episode 50! Clayton is back with some new friends and a twist! With a little change in their pockets and a new task to help them along their way they head out of the bustling crossroads town of Nantgarth. However when they rest at a much used rest area, though with looks like it hasn't been used in awhile, see the group facing down some enemies that need bustin. And we leave off with a big, big reveal. Enjoy the cliffhanger! Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
A very special episode! And a 2 part-er so make sure to tune in next week for the JUICY second part! Although things start off dark, the dim light of hope shines steadily for some new friends, and an old friend? Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Back into the action with a hectic double battle, seeing the party split and thousands of feet apart. The party walks the razors edge of death as they try to get away from a battle they cant possibly win...but will they all make it out? Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Can beauty be found even in the deadly Vandur Desert? Well they do say its in the eye of the beholder! But the with the party split and the patrols getting closer, will they have time to enjoy the view? Find out in this nail biting episode! Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
With the daunting sight of Bo'rugs massive encampment in front of the party and their goblin retinue, Drax befriends one of the desert wolves to help with recon! With a lot more info about the layout and some of the workings of the encampment, they decide a night reconnaissance is in order. Elora and Quinten, the sneakiest party members, make their way closer to the camp.....and thats when things get crazy!!! Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Kevin and Mack are back! With Recap of the Roll #7! We take a look at the episodes we missed and a deeper dive at 45 and 46.
The party mingles with the village of the Shenik tribe of desert goblins. Since they've agreed to help deal with the troll threat and to parley with Helixia, the goblins young and old take a liking to the group! But things look a little bleak as the crew, with 20 of the finest goblin warriors, rolls up to Bo'Rugs encampment and sees what they're up against. Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Things are looking up for the party as they ingratiated themselves to the She'Nik tribe after dispatching the one and only Bo'Rug Dunesmasher! But all is not well as they are forced to face the abrupt departure of someone dear. But they must continue marching on... Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
A tentative agreement with the goblins after a harrying battle send the party into another tough fight with the one, the only...BO'RUG DUNE SMASHER!!!!! How will they fare against the leader of the Vandur Desert Trolls? Come find out! Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Deep in combat with the sand goblins, things look dire with chained nat20s vs the party and a few nat1s from them. But in the end, does a common threat mean unlikely allies? Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Having left the safety of Marcue Tellivon's hut, the party continues toward the goblin camp. But the goblins came out to meet them! The ensuing battle becomes quite hectic, however it seems as if the goblins are trying to do more than just kill the group. Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Mack and Kevin are back in the studio to discuss the events of Episode 41-The Story of Illivar's Beginning, but this time they're joined by Thomas! This one goes a little long, but with so much to discuss, it's no surprise. So sit back, relax, and get up to speed on the latest Hazards of the Roll before the next one comes out. If you have questions you want us to answer, please don't hesitate to reach out to us on Twitter @hazardsroll or shoot us an email at hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com! You can also connect with us on Instagram and Facebook! If you like what you're hearing, please rate, review and subscribe! Thanks for listening, and as always, watch out for those hazardous rolls!
The fight is ended when an old witch with a familiar name comes running up to the encounter. The party follows the crone to her humble desert abode and has a little "mind expanding" tea and gets to hear a piece of the Story of Illivar. Having many gaps filled in and some of there questions answered there is still the question of whether they are doing the right thing. According to the witch, "everything as it should be". Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Recap of the Roll #5 is live and ready for your listening pleasure! In the fifth installment of the show that recaps the Hazards of the Roll podcast, Mack and Kevin sit down to discuss the events of Episode 40-What A Web To Weave. So sit back, catch up, and get ready for the next episode of Hazards of the Roll with a little analysis of the last episode! If you have questions you want us to answer, please feel free to reach out to us on Twitter @hazardsroll or shoot us an email at hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com! If you like what your hearing, please rate, review and subscribe! Thanks for listening, and as always, watch out for those hazardous rolls!
A battle against time, quicksand and...Spiders?! I isn't just Brendar who is up to his neck in sh*t! How are they gonna get outta this mess? Questions or comments? Email us at Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
In the first single-episode Recap of the Roll, Mack and Kevin break down the thrilling events of Episode 39-Thats A Desert Wolf Howl! We discuss the party's first foray into the desert and Mack gives us a backstory of the somewhat complicated desert mechanics. We also discuss a new...friend (?)...the team encountered there. So take a break from the day-to-day tedium and catch up on your favorite podcast before Episode 40 launches! If you would like to be featured on the show, submit any questions or comments to us at hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com, or on Twitter @hazardsroll. If you like what you're hearing, please rate, review and subscribe! Thanks for listening, and as always, be wary of those hazardous rolls!
We begin our long trip through the desert, and then of course the party is roped into a "do this for me or die" mission set down by...a desert wolf? Things are dangerous and interesting in the desert! Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
In this, the third installment of Recap of the Roll, we discuss episodes 35 through 38! We also let you know about a change coming to the format... Mack and Kevin take a deep dive into the last four episodes, highlighting the moments that made us laugh and made us cringe, with a little rules discussion baked in! If you would like to be featured on the show with us, submit any questions or comments to us directly at our email, or on Twitter @hazardsroll. If you like what you hear and want to hear more, give us a couple of bucks at our Patreon! Either way, thanks for listening, and be wary of those hazardous rolls!
It's a long dark tunnel, but the party finally makes their way into the desert. But not before disturbing a kindly Sand Wyvern! Watch out for crabs! The party talks a little more with Gelfrynn before setting off down the tunnels en route to Duna. However, in order to make it through, they must cross a perilous bridge over a troubled cavern. What troubles lie ahead? Is the party capable of crossing a bridge? Find out! Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
The party has to gather their wits after an encounter with a terrifying Orton! And they still need to battle a sand troll to help their new friend Sa'Kar. Lets hope this one isn't any stronger than the first one! Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
After a gruesome post combat anatomy lesson, the party heads to Sa'kars underground campsite for a good nights rest.....Only to awaken to a suprise visitor! Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Insults fly left and right during this battle with a pretty dangerous creature! A Sand Troll...During the battle the party is able to free a lizard man held captive by the trolls and, welcome the first addition to the hazards crew officially on the show! Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Recap of the Roll #2! Where we get to go behind the scenes and see how hazardous the rolls really are! In the second installment of the Recap of the Roll, Mack and Kevin discuss the last 5 episodes (30-34, for those of us that can't count). Kevin asks Mack some questions he knows he can't answer, but maybe Mack will slip up and give him something! Either way, it's definitely worth a listen! You can be featured on the show! Send us your questions and comments on: Twitter: @hazardsroll OR Email us: hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com and we might respond on the air!
All is fair in bugs and caves! The party stumbles into a nest of Rockpedes and meets a strange creature from the desert. Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Rockpedes tunnels, then more rockpedes?! The party is in it deep down beneath the crags and you know what they say...curiosity killed the cat! Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
After jumping down into the caverns beneath the Red Crags, the party feels the weight of being deep underground and the knowledge that they cant simply just go back makes things more ominous. Now they just gotta find their way out of the winding multi forking caverns! Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Departures are always tough. The party keeps things upbeat while discussing the next step, and ultimately decides its time to cut their losses and head out! Where do they go? Well remember that one bridge? Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
The party finishes off their fight with the vampire-like creatures, but something seems to be stirring on top of this assault from Ix's subordinate....whats that coming up the Duna ramp?? Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Join our first "long-form" Recap episode! this is gonna kick off a monthly iteration of Kevin and Mack Recapping the episodes of the month. This one is also a Q&A Episode! We will always be willing to answer questions so don't be afraid to send questions or comments to Hazardsoftheroll@gmail.com!
The party has been doing a lot of discussing and figuring out what to do next. But its time to get back to some COMBAT! And for once Kevin doesnt roll like crap! You have to hear it to believe it. Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
The party continues to try to firgure out what there next step is. And some old friends come with some dire tidings! Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
The party heads to Ix's mansion on mission to hopefully rescue Kyrna Kahn. But something is different this time? Hackles raise as the group trys to figure out just whats going on! Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
With the "Black Stone" in the party's possession, they now begin decided what to do next. But they take some time to remember a fallen friend first. The group must still continue on, and hopefully, they can stop a rising tide. Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
Some things come to an end, but that doesn't mean its over. The party needs to finish their battle and hopefully get out of the dreaded Ortons hole. Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
The fight is on! The party faces off against this 3-headed monstrosity guarding the door to their goal. But this creature isn't alone down here, hold on to your hats as things get rough! Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
The fight continues down deep in Ortons Hole! Things look deadlier as the crew make their way through the mine and end up face to face with their toughest fight yet! Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)
The party begins the push to find what this mysterious black stone sealed up in Ortons Hole is. They were told to be wary of the sudden appearance of undead...but what other dangers lurk in this evil hole! Twitter Patreon Sound & music by Syrinscape www.syrinscape.com/?att_hazards_of_the_roll Because Epic Games Need Epic Sound Complete list of credits here: https://tinyurl.com/4klxzzq7 Most music made by Mack (some attributed sounds have not yet been used, but may in the future)