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Panel: Josh Adams Charles Max Wood Mark Ericksen Special Guest: Devon Estes In this episode of Elixir Mix, the panel talks with Devon Estes who is a software developer who uses Elixir. He currently resides in Berlin, Germany and has been working there for the past four years. The panelists and the guest talk about Elixir, testing, and much more! Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job!  0:49 – Chuck: I am starting a new show called The DevRev. Check it out here! Our special guest today is Devon Estes. Episode 18 is a past episode you’ve been on – check it out here! 1:26 – Devon: I am American but live in Berlin, Germany for about 4 years now. I was a freelancer, but now I am at a “real” job now where I am a software developer using Elixir. 1:50 – Chuck: Cool! 2:05 – Guest: Something to always talk about testing – it’s evergreen! 2:15 – Chuck: What are the benefits you get from testing and what is your approach? 2:24 – The guest answers the question. 3:53 – Panelist chimes in. 4:18 – Panel: I like playing around and I know when something is terrible. I have to poke around to figure out if I like it or not. I am an exploratory developer. I write a test and it looks great at first but the implementation is terrible or something. 5:54 – Mark comments on developers and how they interact with their code. 7:15 – Mark: How do you approach that? I heard you talking about tests, spikes and other things. 7:22 – Guest: If it is something that is small I will write the test first. If it’s larger I will usually do 2-3 spikes to figure out what is going on. The guest continues with this topic. 8:54 – Panel: I found that over the years I couldn’t do that. 9:21 – Guest: With the topic of testing in Elixir I have these “rules” but I break them all the time. Sometimes you get better, cleaner tests out of it if you were to break the rule(s.). Tests are only there for 90% of the time, in my own opinion. Sometimes you have to play around to see what’s going on. 10:36 – Panel: I agree a lot, especially with integrations. 10:49 – Guest. 12:18 – Panel: You have these guidelines or rules and you know when to break those rules. You talked about these specific rules and I thought it was interesting. I was reading through these and I have the same rules but you codified them with examples. Can you walk us through your guidelines? 13:00 – Guest: To be super clear I am talking about unit tests. When I think of testing there is this testing pyramid. 13:52 – Panel. 14:57 – Guest: Like I said, these rules are meant to be broken, if appropriate. 16:39 – Guest continues with unit testing and other types of testing. He talks about easier to more difficult kinds of tests. 17:42 – Guest (continues): Sometimes the tests are accurately true, and sometimes not. It can be easy to get into those traps. Hopefully they will tell you what is expected. 18:25 – Panel: In Ruby, there is a test that would modify your code and remove stuff? Was it Mutant? Mutant testing. 19:03 – Guest answers the question. 19:38 – Guest: I don’t know if Elixir has anything like that, yet, but it would be pretty cool. It would be a good idea for someone to take on! 20:00 – Chuck: I have had conversations with a colleague – they both pushed back and talked more about Cypress.io and integrated tests. 21:04 – Chuck: I think it’s interesting to see the different approaches! 21:14 – Guest: We are lucky to have great tooling in Elixir!! The guest mentions Wallaby.js! 24:39 – The guest talks about unit levels. Check it out here! 26:35 – Panel. 26:48 – Chuck: How does it affect my workflow? I like end-to-end tests. The efficiency, if it’s repeating stuff – I don’t care – as long as it’s fast enough. If it ruins my workflow then it’s a problem. 27:22 – Panel. 28:12 – The topic “test coverage” is mentioned by Chuck. 28:25 – Panel. 29:02 – FreshBooks! 30:10 – Guest talks about Wallaby.js.  32:24 – Panel: We’ve had you on before, and the idea is that you are all into Elixir and its path. (EMx 018 – Episode with Devon Estes) 32:57 – Guest: I think testing in Elixir is simpler.  34:04 – Panel. 34:07 – Guest: You have commands and you have queries. The guest gives a hypothetical example! The guest also mentions GenServers, too. 35:42 – Guest: There are two ways that you can interact with the process: command & queries. 37:00 – Guest talks about different libraries such as: MoX. 37:41 – Panel: Any tips on testing the servers; just any GenServer? 38:25 – Panelist shares his approach with this. 39:54 – Guest: I don’t test name servers b/c they are by definition global state. The guest goes into great detail about testing – check it out! 46:29 – Panel. 47:01 – Guest: I kind of hate the term dependency interjection in the functional context. 47:17 – Panel: I think it’s helpful, because... 47:28 – Guest. 47:49 – Panelists go back-and-forth! 48:20 – Panel: Sending a message to the testing process – this was something that was stated by Devon earlier. I find this really helpful. 49:00 – Chuck: Picks! 49:05 – Ad: Lootcrate.com END – CacheFly! Links: Ruby Elixir GenServers Elm JavaScript Visual Studio Code React Wallaby Cypress.io Mutation Testing – GitHub MoX MRS 003 – Episode with Devon Estes RR 295 – Episode with Devon Estes RR 330 – Episode with Devon Estes EMx 018 – Episode with Devon Estes Devon’s GitHub Devon’s Twitter Sponsors: Loot Crate Get a Coder Job! Fresh Books CacheFly Picks: Mark Get Alias Blog - Mox Josh GitPitch.com Slide Deck by Josh Charles Values Extreme Ownership Sit down with your team Discord server for DevChat Recommendation Page for Elixir Devon Dell Laptop XPS 13 Play Station Mini Test  - devonestes@gmail.com

Panel: Josh Adams Charles Max Wood Mark Ericksen Special Guest: Devon Estes In this episode of Elixir Mix, the panel talks with Devon Estes who is a software developer who uses Elixir. He currently resides in Berlin, Germany and has been working there for the past four years. The panelists and the guest talk about Elixir, testing, and much more! Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job!  0:49 – Chuck: I am starting a new show called The DevRev. Check it out here! Our special guest today is Devon Estes. Episode 18 is a past episode you’ve been on – check it out here! 1:26 – Devon: I am American but live in Berlin, Germany for about 4 years now. I was a freelancer, but now I am at a “real” job now where I am a software developer using Elixir. 1:50 – Chuck: Cool! 2:05 – Guest: Something to always talk about testing – it’s evergreen! 2:15 – Chuck: What are the benefits you get from testing and what is your approach? 2:24 – The guest answers the question. 3:53 – Panelist chimes in. 4:18 – Panel: I like playing around and I know when something is terrible. I have to poke around to figure out if I like it or not. I am an exploratory developer. I write a test and it looks great at first but the implementation is terrible or something. 5:54 – Mark comments on developers and how they interact with their code. 7:15 – Mark: How do you approach that? I heard you talking about tests, spikes and other things. 7:22 – Guest: If it is something that is small I will write the test first. If it’s larger I will usually do 2-3 spikes to figure out what is going on. The guest continues with this topic. 8:54 – Panel: I found that over the years I couldn’t do that. 9:21 – Guest: With the topic of testing in Elixir I have these “rules” but I break them all the time. Sometimes you get better, cleaner tests out of it if you were to break the rule(s.). Tests are only there for 90% of the time, in my own opinion. Sometimes you have to play around to see what’s going on. 10:36 – Panel: I agree a lot, especially with integrations. 10:49 – Guest. 12:18 – Panel: You have these guidelines or rules and you know when to break those rules. You talked about these specific rules and I thought it was interesting. I was reading through these and I have the same rules but you codified them with examples. Can you walk us through your guidelines? 13:00 – Guest: To be super clear I am talking about unit tests. When I think of testing there is this testing pyramid. 13:52 – Panel. 14:57 – Guest: Like I said, these rules are meant to be broken, if appropriate. 16:39 – Guest continues with unit testing and other types of testing. He talks about easier to more difficult kinds of tests. 17:42 – Guest (continues): Sometimes the tests are accurately true, and sometimes not. It can be easy to get into those traps. Hopefully they will tell you what is expected. 18:25 – Panel: In Ruby, there is a test that would modify your code and remove stuff? Was it Mutant? Mutant testing. 19:03 – Guest answers the question. 19:38 – Guest: I don’t know if Elixir has anything like that, yet, but it would be pretty cool. It would be a good idea for someone to take on! 20:00 – Chuck: I have had conversations with a colleague – they both pushed back and talked more about Cypress.io and integrated tests. 21:04 – Chuck: I think it’s interesting to see the different approaches! 21:14 – Guest: We are lucky to have great tooling in Elixir!! The guest mentions Wallaby.js! 24:39 – The guest talks about unit levels. Check it out here! 26:35 – Panel. 26:48 – Chuck: How does it affect my workflow? I like end-to-end tests. The efficiency, if it’s repeating stuff – I don’t care – as long as it’s fast enough. If it ruins my workflow then it’s a problem. 27:22 – Panel. 28:12 – The topic “test coverage” is mentioned by Chuck. 28:25 – Panel. 29:02 – FreshBooks! 30:10 – Guest talks about Wallaby.js.  32:24 – Panel: We’ve had you on before, and the idea is that you are all into Elixir and its path. (EMx 018 – Episode with Devon Estes) 32:57 – Guest: I think testing in Elixir is simpler.  34:04 – Panel. 34:07 – Guest: You have commands and you have queries. The guest gives a hypothetical example! The guest also mentions GenServers, too. 35:42 – Guest: There are two ways that you can interact with the process: command & queries. 37:00 – Guest talks about different libraries such as: MoX. 37:41 – Panel: Any tips on testing the servers; just any GenServer? 38:25 – Panelist shares his approach with this. 39:54 – Guest: I don’t test name servers b/c they are by definition global state. The guest goes into great detail about testing – check it out! 46:29 – Panel. 47:01 – Guest: I kind of hate the term dependency interjection in the functional context. 47:17 – Panel: I think it’s helpful, because... 47:28 – Guest. 47:49 – Panelists go back-and-forth! 48:20 – Panel: Sending a message to the testing process – this was something that was stated by Devon earlier. I find this really helpful. 49:00 – Chuck: Picks! 49:05 – Ad: Lootcrate.com END – CacheFly! Links: Ruby Elixir GenServers Elm JavaScript Visual Studio Code React Wallaby Cypress.io Mutation Testing – GitHub MoX MRS 003 – Episode with Devon Estes RR 295 – Episode with Devon Estes RR 330 – Episode with Devon Estes EMx 018 – Episode with Devon Estes Devon’s GitHub Devon’s Twitter Sponsors: Loot Crate Get a Coder Job! Fresh Books CacheFly Picks: Mark Get Alias Blog - Mox Josh GitPitch.com Slide Deck by Josh Charles Values Extreme Ownership Sit down with your team Discord server for DevChat Recommendation Page for Elixir Devon Dell Laptop XPS 13 Play Station Mini Test  - devonestes@gmail.com

Panel: Nader Dabit Lucas Reis Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Ben Nelson In this episode, the panelists talk with Ben Nelson who is a co-founder and CTO of Lambda School. The panelists and Ben talk about Lambda School, the pros & cons of the 4-year university program for developers, and much more. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Kendo UI 0:33 – Chuck: We have Nader, Lucas, and myself – our special gust is Ben Nelson! 0:50 – Guest: Hi! 0:54 – Chuck: Please introduce yourself. 0:58 – Guest: I love to ski and was a developer in the Utah area. 1:12 – Chuck: Let’s talk about Lambda School, but I think explaining what the school is and how you operate will help. Give us an elevator pitch for the school. 1:36 – Guest: The school is 30-weeks long and we go deep into computer fundamentals. They get exposed to multiple stacks. Since it’s 30-weeks to run we help with the finances by they start paying once they get employed. It’s online and students from U.S. and the U.K. 3:23 – Chuck: I don’t want you to badmouth DevMountain, great model, but I don’t know if it works for everyone? 3:43 – Guest: Three months part-time is really hard if you don’t have a technical background. It was a grind and hard for the students. 4:03 – Nader: Is it online or any part in-person. 4:11 – Guest: Yep totally online. 4:40 – Nader: Austen Allred is really, really good at being in the social scene. I know that he has mentioned that you are apart of...since 2017? 5:20 – Guest: Yeah you would be surprised how much Twitter has helped our school. He is the other co-founder and is a genius with social media platforms! 6:04 – Guest mentions Python, marketing, and building a following. 7:17 – Guest: We saw a lot of students who wanted to enroll but they couldn’t afford it. This gave us the idea to help with using the income share agreement. 8:06 – Nader: Yeah, that’s really cool. I didn’t know you were online only so now that makes sense. Do you have other plans for the company? 8:33 – Guest: Amazon started with books and then branched out; same thing for us. 8:56 – Chuck: Let’s talk about programming and what’s your placement rate right now? 9:05 – Guest: It fluctuates. Our incentive is we don’t get paid unless our students get employed. Our first couple classes were 83% and then later in the mid-60%s and it’s averaging around there. Our goal is 90% in 90 days. Guest continues: All boot camps aren’t the same. 10:55 – Lucas: Ben, I have a question. One thing we have a concern about is that universities are disconnected with the CURRENT market! 11:47 – Guest: We cannot compare to the 4-year system, but our strength we don’t have tenure track Ph.D. professors. Our instructors have been working hands-on for a while. They are experienced engineers. We make sure the instructors we hire are involved and passionate. We pay for them to go to conferences and we want them to be on the cutting-edge. We feel like we can compete to CS degrees b/c of the focused training that we offer. 13:16 – Chuck: Yeah, when I went to school there were only 2 professors that came from the field. 14:22 – Guest: Yeah, look at MIT. When I was studying CS in school my best professor was adjunct b/c he came from the field. I don’t know if the 4-year plan is always the best. I don’t want to shoot down higher education but you have to consider what’s best for you. 15:05 – Nader: It’s spread out across the different fields. It was a model that was created a long time ago, and isn’t always the best necessarily for computer science. Think about our field b/c things are moving so fast.  15:57 – Chuck: What you are saying, Nader, but 10 years ago this iPhone was a brand new thing, and now we are talking about a zillion different devices that you can write for. It’s crazy. That’s where we are seeing things change – the fundamentals are good – but they aren’t teaching you at that level. Hello – it’s not the ‘90s anymore! I wonder if my bias comes from boot camp grads were really motivated in the first place...and they want to make a change and make a career out of it. 17:34 – Chuck: There is value, but I don’t know if my CS major prepared me well for the job market. 17:42 – Guest: Probably you didn’t have much student loan debt being that you went to Utah. 17:58 – Nader: Why is that? 18:03 – Chuck talks about UT’s tuition and how he worked while attending college. 18:29 – Lucas: I don’t stop studying. The fundamentals aren’t bad to keep studying them. Putting you into a job first should be top priority and then dive into the fundamentals. Work knowledge is so important – after you are working for 1 year – then figure out what the fundamentals are. I think I learn better the “other way around.” 20:30 – Chuck: That’s fair. 20:45 – Guest: That’s exactly what we focus on. The guest talks about the general curriculum at the Lambda School 22:07 – Nader: That’s an interesting take on that. When you frame it that way – there is no comparison when considering the student loan debt. 22:30 – Chuck: College degrees do have a place, too. 22:39 – Chuck: Who do you see applying to the boot camps? 23:05 – Guest: It’s a mix. It’s concentrated on people who started in another career and they want to make a career change. Say they come from construction or finances and they are switching to developing. We get some college students, but it’s definitely more adult training. 24:02 – Guest: The older people who have families they are desperate and they are hungry and want to work hard. We had this guy who was making $20,000 and now he’s making $85K. Now his daughter can have his own bedroom and crying through that statement. 24:50 – Chuck: That makes sense! 24:52 – Advertisement – FRESH BOOKS! 26:02 – Guest: Look at MIT, Berkeley – the value is filtering and they are only accepting the top of the top. We don’t want to operate like that. We just have to hire new teachers and not build new buildings. We raise the bar and set the standard – and try to get everybody to that bar. We aren’t sacrificing quality but want everybody there. 27:43 – Chuck: What are the tradeoffs? 28:00 – Guest: There is an energy in-person that happens that you miss out on doing it online. There are a lot of benefits, though, doing it online. They have access to a larger audience via the web, they can re-watch videos that teachers record. 28:45 – Nader: Is there a set curriculum that everyone uses? How do you come up with the curriculum and how often does it get revamped? What are you teaching currently? 29:08 – Guest answers the question in-detail. 30:49 – Guest (continues): Heavily project-focused, too! 31:08 – Nader: What happens when they start and if they dropout? 31:22 – Guest: When we first got started we thought it was going to be high dropout rates. At first it was 40% b/c it’s hard, you can close your computer, and walk away. If a student doesn’t score 80% or higher in the week then they have to do it again. Our dropout rate is only 5-10%. In the beginning they have a grace period of 2-4 weeks where they wouldn’t owe anything. After a certain point, though, they are bound to pay per our agreements. 33:00 – Chuck: Where do people get stuck? 33:05 – Guest: Redux, React, and others! Maybe an instructor isn’t doing a good job. 34:06 – Guest: It’s intense and so we have to provide emotional support. 34:17 – Nader: I started a school year and I ran it for 1-3 years and didn’t go anywhere. We did PHP and Angular 1 and a little React Native. We never were able to get the numbers to come, and we’d only have 3-4 people. I think the problem was we were in Mississippi and scaling it is not an easy thing to do. This could be different if you were in NY. But if you are virtual that is a good take. Question: What hurdles did you have to overcome? 35:52 – Guest: There was a lot of experimentation. Dropout rates were a big one, and the other one is growth. One problem that needed to be solved first was: Is there a demand for this? Reddit helped and SubReddit. For the dropout rates we had to drive home the concept of accountability. There are tons of hands-on help from TA’s, there is accountability with attendance, and homework and grades. We want them to know that they are noticed and we are checking-in on them if they were to miss class, etc. 38:41 – Chuck: I know your instructor, Luis among others. I know they used to work for DevMountain. How do you find these folks? 39:15 – Guest: A lot of it is through the network, but now Twitter, too. 40:13 – Nader: I am always amazed with the developers that come out of UT. 40:28 – Chuck: It’s interesting and we are seeing companies coming out here. 40:50 – Guest: Something we were concerned about was placement as it relates to geography. So someone that is in North Dakota – would they get a job. The people in the rural areas almost have an easier time getting the job b/c it’s less competitive. Companies are willing to pay for relocation, which is good. 41:49 – Nader: That is spot on. 42:22 – Chuck: Instructor or Student how do they inquire to teach/attend at your school? 42:44 – Guest: We are launching in the United Kingdom and looking for a program director there! 43:00 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly Links: Ruby on Rails Angular JavaScript Elm Phoenix GitHub Get A Coder Job Income Share Agreement’s Definition DevMountain Charles Max Wood’s Twitter Nader Dabit’s Twitter Lucas Reis’ GitHub Ben Nelson’s Talk: Rethinking Higher Education – ICERI 2016 Keynote Speech Ben Nelson’s LinkedIn Ben Nelson’s Twitter Lambda School Sponsors: Get a Coder Job Cache Fly Fresh Books Kendo UI   Picks: Lucas Cypress Looking a Cypress as a Development Environment. Nader Egghead.io Nader’s courses on Egghead.io Suggestions for courses Charles Opportunity to help liberate developers Extreme Ownership Hiring a developer Sales Rep. for selling sponsorships Show note writer Ben Air Table

Panel: Nader Dabit Lucas Reis Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Ben Nelson In this episode, the panelists talk with Ben Nelson who is a co-founder and CTO of Lambda School. The panelists and Ben talk about Lambda School, the pros & cons of the 4-year university program for developers, and much more. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Kendo UI 0:33 – Chuck: We have Nader, Lucas, and myself – our special gust is Ben Nelson! 0:50 – Guest: Hi! 0:54 – Chuck: Please introduce yourself. 0:58 – Guest: I love to ski and was a developer in the Utah area. 1:12 – Chuck: Let’s talk about Lambda School, but I think explaining what the school is and how you operate will help. Give us an elevator pitch for the school. 1:36 – Guest: The school is 30-weeks long and we go deep into computer fundamentals. They get exposed to multiple stacks. Since it’s 30-weeks to run we help with the finances by they start paying once they get employed. It’s online and students from U.S. and the U.K. 3:23 – Chuck: I don’t want you to badmouth DevMountain, great model, but I don’t know if it works for everyone? 3:43 – Guest: Three months part-time is really hard if you don’t have a technical background. It was a grind and hard for the students. 4:03 – Nader: Is it online or any part in-person. 4:11 – Guest: Yep totally online. 4:40 – Nader: Austen Allred is really, really good at being in the social scene. I know that he has mentioned that you are apart of...since 2017? 5:20 – Guest: Yeah you would be surprised how much Twitter has helped our school. He is the other co-founder and is a genius with social media platforms! 6:04 – Guest mentions Python, marketing, and building a following. 7:17 – Guest: We saw a lot of students who wanted to enroll but they couldn’t afford it. This gave us the idea to help with using the income share agreement. 8:06 – Nader: Yeah, that’s really cool. I didn’t know you were online only so now that makes sense. Do you have other plans for the company? 8:33 – Guest: Amazon started with books and then branched out; same thing for us. 8:56 – Chuck: Let’s talk about programming and what’s your placement rate right now? 9:05 – Guest: It fluctuates. Our incentive is we don’t get paid unless our students get employed. Our first couple classes were 83% and then later in the mid-60%s and it’s averaging around there. Our goal is 90% in 90 days. Guest continues: All boot camps aren’t the same. 10:55 – Lucas: Ben, I have a question. One thing we have a concern about is that universities are disconnected with the CURRENT market! 11:47 – Guest: We cannot compare to the 4-year system, but our strength we don’t have tenure track Ph.D. professors. Our instructors have been working hands-on for a while. They are experienced engineers. We make sure the instructors we hire are involved and passionate. We pay for them to go to conferences and we want them to be on the cutting-edge. We feel like we can compete to CS degrees b/c of the focused training that we offer. 13:16 – Chuck: Yeah, when I went to school there were only 2 professors that came from the field. 14:22 – Guest: Yeah, look at MIT. When I was studying CS in school my best professor was adjunct b/c he came from the field. I don’t know if the 4-year plan is always the best. I don’t want to shoot down higher education but you have to consider what’s best for you. 15:05 – Nader: It’s spread out across the different fields. It was a model that was created a long time ago, and isn’t always the best necessarily for computer science. Think about our field b/c things are moving so fast.  15:57 – Chuck: What you are saying, Nader, but 10 years ago this iPhone was a brand new thing, and now we are talking about a zillion different devices that you can write for. It’s crazy. That’s where we are seeing things change – the fundamentals are good – but they aren’t teaching you at that level. Hello – it’s not the ‘90s anymore! I wonder if my bias comes from boot camp grads were really motivated in the first place...and they want to make a change and make a career out of it. 17:34 – Chuck: There is value, but I don’t know if my CS major prepared me well for the job market. 17:42 – Guest: Probably you didn’t have much student loan debt being that you went to Utah. 17:58 – Nader: Why is that? 18:03 – Chuck talks about UT’s tuition and how he worked while attending college. 18:29 – Lucas: I don’t stop studying. The fundamentals aren’t bad to keep studying them. Putting you into a job first should be top priority and then dive into the fundamentals. Work knowledge is so important – after you are working for 1 year – then figure out what the fundamentals are. I think I learn better the “other way around.” 20:30 – Chuck: That’s fair. 20:45 – Guest: That’s exactly what we focus on. The guest talks about the general curriculum at the Lambda School 22:07 – Nader: That’s an interesting take on that. When you frame it that way – there is no comparison when considering the student loan debt. 22:30 – Chuck: College degrees do have a place, too. 22:39 – Chuck: Who do you see applying to the boot camps? 23:05 – Guest: It’s a mix. It’s concentrated on people who started in another career and they want to make a career change. Say they come from construction or finances and they are switching to developing. We get some college students, but it’s definitely more adult training. 24:02 – Guest: The older people who have families they are desperate and they are hungry and want to work hard. We had this guy who was making $20,000 and now he’s making $85K. Now his daughter can have his own bedroom and crying through that statement. 24:50 – Chuck: That makes sense! 24:52 – Advertisement – FRESH BOOKS! 26:02 – Guest: Look at MIT, Berkeley – the value is filtering and they are only accepting the top of the top. We don’t want to operate like that. We just have to hire new teachers and not build new buildings. We raise the bar and set the standard – and try to get everybody to that bar. We aren’t sacrificing quality but want everybody there. 27:43 – Chuck: What are the tradeoffs? 28:00 – Guest: There is an energy in-person that happens that you miss out on doing it online. There are a lot of benefits, though, doing it online. They have access to a larger audience via the web, they can re-watch videos that teachers record. 28:45 – Nader: Is there a set curriculum that everyone uses? How do you come up with the curriculum and how often does it get revamped? What are you teaching currently? 29:08 – Guest answers the question in-detail. 30:49 – Guest (continues): Heavily project-focused, too! 31:08 – Nader: What happens when they start and if they dropout? 31:22 – Guest: When we first got started we thought it was going to be high dropout rates. At first it was 40% b/c it’s hard, you can close your computer, and walk away. If a student doesn’t score 80% or higher in the week then they have to do it again. Our dropout rate is only 5-10%. In the beginning they have a grace period of 2-4 weeks where they wouldn’t owe anything. After a certain point, though, they are bound to pay per our agreements. 33:00 – Chuck: Where do people get stuck? 33:05 – Guest: Redux, React, and others! Maybe an instructor isn’t doing a good job. 34:06 – Guest: It’s intense and so we have to provide emotional support. 34:17 – Nader: I started a school year and I ran it for 1-3 years and didn’t go anywhere. We did PHP and Angular 1 and a little React Native. We never were able to get the numbers to come, and we’d only have 3-4 people. I think the problem was we were in Mississippi and scaling it is not an easy thing to do. This could be different if you were in NY. But if you are virtual that is a good take. Question: What hurdles did you have to overcome? 35:52 – Guest: There was a lot of experimentation. Dropout rates were a big one, and the other one is growth. One problem that needed to be solved first was: Is there a demand for this? Reddit helped and SubReddit. For the dropout rates we had to drive home the concept of accountability. There are tons of hands-on help from TA’s, there is accountability with attendance, and homework and grades. We want them to know that they are noticed and we are checking-in on them if they were to miss class, etc. 38:41 – Chuck: I know your instructor, Luis among others. I know they used to work for DevMountain. How do you find these folks? 39:15 – Guest: A lot of it is through the network, but now Twitter, too. 40:13 – Nader: I am always amazed with the developers that come out of UT. 40:28 – Chuck: It’s interesting and we are seeing companies coming out here. 40:50 – Guest: Something we were concerned about was placement as it relates to geography. So someone that is in North Dakota – would they get a job. The people in the rural areas almost have an easier time getting the job b/c it’s less competitive. Companies are willing to pay for relocation, which is good. 41:49 – Nader: That is spot on. 42:22 – Chuck: Instructor or Student how do they inquire to teach/attend at your school? 42:44 – Guest: We are launching in the United Kingdom and looking for a program director there! 43:00 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly Links: Ruby on Rails Angular JavaScript Elm Phoenix GitHub Get A Coder Job Income Share Agreement’s Definition DevMountain Charles Max Wood’s Twitter Nader Dabit’s Twitter Lucas Reis’ GitHub Ben Nelson’s Talk: Rethinking Higher Education – ICERI 2016 Keynote Speech Ben Nelson’s LinkedIn Ben Nelson’s Twitter Lambda School Sponsors: Get a Coder Job Cache Fly Fresh Books Kendo UI   Picks: Lucas Cypress Looking a Cypress as a Development Environment. Nader Egghead.io Nader’s courses on Egghead.io Suggestions for courses Charles Opportunity to help liberate developers Extreme Ownership Hiring a developer Sales Rep. for selling sponsorships Show note writer Ben Air Table