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Patrick opens the hour by tackling unsettling headlines from Europe, with France and Germany bracing for potential conflict, and raises the question of what governments might know that ordinary citizens do not. He then turns to listener calls, addressing concerns about priests’ behavior with personal stories and the inspiring example of St. John Vianney, and offering a mix of humor and practical. A call from Jessica brings a moment of raw honesty, as Patrick encourages her to draw from her own suffering to help her children grasp the depth of God’s love. Is Europe preparing for WWWIII? (01:45) Rick (email) - Should a priest be seen throwing back drinks in a local bar? (07:18) Mark - How old was Adam when God created Eve? (21:13) Jeanne (email) – Thank you. I’m back home in the Catholic Church because of you (24:10) Sylvia (email) – Should we stay at a hotel that I’ve heard is haunted? (27:27) Patricia - Has the 100 years where God gave Satan dominion ended or is it still happening? (37:04) Jessica - How can I help foster the love of God in a rebellious teenager? (40:59)
* Explaining what happened with the deadly flooding in Texas * Phones are getting more advanced than ever. Here's what we can expect * President Trump's big tax bill could mean bigger bills for Louisianans * A Hail Mary legal maneuver kept a security guard from lengthy prison sentence * Monday Morning Markets with Mark: How markets view the Big Beautifull Bill * How AI is changing how our phones work and how we use them
This week, our guest is Mark Maki, Chief Executive Officer of Trans Mountain Corporation. The original Trans Mountain pipeline was built in 1953, and the Expansion Project was completed just over one year ago, nearly tripling the pipeline's capacity to 890,000 B/d (from 300,000 B/d). Here are some of the questions that Jackie and Peter asked Mark: How much do you expect to pay your shareholder (the Canadian Government) in 2025 and 2026? What are the logistics of moving the oil by tanker? Where are the tankers going, and what type of crude is shipped in the pipeline? How has the pipeline improved Canadian oil prices? What is the expected timing for a resolution on the tolls, as a Canadian Energy Regulator (CER) hearing is currently underway that could adjust the cost for shipping oil? What is the potential to increase pipeline flows, and is there potential for a northern leg as proposed in the early days of the expansion? The Federal Government has stated it plans to sell the pipeline; do you have any updates on that and the potential timing? What are your thoughts on Bill C-5 and the potential for this type of legislation to avoid the high costs and many delays faced by the Trans Mountain Expansion?Content referenced in this podcast: Globe and Mail, “Trans Mountain expects to pay federal government $1.25 billion in 2025” (May 2025)Financial Post, “Canada must maximize existing pipelines before building more, Guilbeault says” (May 2025) Financial Post, “Northern Leg to Trans Mountain pipeline attracts interest amid brewing trade war” (February 2025)Please review our disclaimer at: https://www.arcenergyinstitute.com/disclaimer/ Check us out on social media: X (Twitter): @arcenergyinstLinkedIn: @ARC Energy Research Institute Subscribe to ARC Energy Ideas PodcastApple PodcastsAmazon MusicSpotify
* Previewing LSU's championship series against Coastal Carolina * How do we get the Sewerage and Water Board to meet its catch basin goal? * Summer is here, and so are the pests * There are plenty of great restaurants on the Northshore. Give these a shot * Should more of the French Quarter be pedestrian-only? * Managing Your Money with Mark: How to fully take advantage of your 401(k)
Patrick talks about the relationship between the Latin language and the Catholic Church and also how words have been interpreted and changed over the years. And he also talks about the differences between Latin and English, and recommends people learn some Latin. Patrick discusses the conflict in wanting to an organization that does good, but commits some immoral acts. He also takes a question regarding evolution and the way it’s taught. Lily-Why can’t siblings get married? (2:42) Zach (email)-Does the devil hate the sound of Latin and is it the purest language? (5:06) Mark-How you could go to mass in any other country, and it’s the same Latin Mass and to get rid of the Latin Mass is to divide the Church. (13:59) Catherine-Question about choosing new Godparents as original Godparents have lost their way. (18:09) Joan-Latin had a juridical and legislative vocabulary that led to doctrine. (20:11) Mary Ann Can I donate to a scientific research organization for a specific thing since I don't like all that they do? (28:44) Larry-If Satan doesn't like Latin, why do Devil worshipers use Latin? (39:19) Jessica (email)-Any online Latin classes to recommend? (41:41) Magdalena-My kids go to Catholic School and they say that evolution could be a thing but I have a background in biological sciences and I see no evidence of it. (43:50)
Patrick shares the excitement and hope surrounding our new Pope, discusses what it could mean for vocations and the Church in the U.S., and highlights how people everywhere respond. He also explains important faith topics like how indulgences work, why popes change their names, and the meaning of confession. Patrick encourages unity, prayer, and embracing new opportunities for growth in the Church. Patrick reads and responds to various emails that have come in regarding our new Pope (00:43) Keaton (email) - How do you think this impacts the priesthood in the United States? Nancy - Can you explain mortal sin and how to know if you are in mortal sin? (13:19) Kelly - What are the Crucifixes in the main Church supposed to like? (21:11) Audio: The brother of Pope Leo XIV gives his reaction to learning the news - courtesy of ABC News (26:39) Rodney – Does the Pope have infallible authority in politics or economics? (31:17) Maria - Is it ok to use the name of Jesus for a computer password? (37:53) Lynn - Do only Catholics believe that Jesus is God? Why do Catholic’s have Jesus on the Cross? (40:10) Marcel – When we saw the white smoke and the Church bells started ringing, I started crying. (45:14) Mark - How do I explain that we’ve had 267 Popes? (46:41)
Mark has a virtual beer with Kevin J. Anderson while they talk through various aspects about writing and publishing. This episode is from a live chat that was hosted on the evening of Sunday March 16, 2025. This episode is sponsored by Superstars Writing Seminars: Teaching you the business of being a writer which takes place in early Feb 2026 in Colorado Springs, CO and where Mark will be a guest speaker. Use code: STARK100 to get $100 off your registration. In their chat Mark and Kevin talk about: The loss of author and poet Danny Peart, Neil Peart's brother and how the first story Kevin and Neil wrote together named the main character after Neil's brother Mark and Kevin's Rush and beer connection Kevin's "music starter kit" to his grand-kids The significance of the Rush album Grace Under Pressure to both Kevin and Mark How the Columbia Music Record Club is what led to Kevin discovering Rush (because he was looking for sci-fi style album covers and Rush's 2112 jumped out at him) The back-story to Kevin's Terra Incognita novels Writing a novel that was a tie-in to a Rush album How Kevin has been able to leverage Kickstarter to produce products that no New York publisher would likely ever get behind The way a tribute song "No Words" about Neil Peart led to a new friendship and collaboration with Kevin The music behind the Terra Incognita trilogy Kevin's Kickstarter for Terra Incognita funding in 14 minutes, but the ultimate goal of earning back the high investment he has already put into it The number of novels that Kevin has written Benefits of being able to order books directly from the author versus going through the multiple layers of traditional publishing Superstars Writing Seminars, the conference that Kevin, his wife Rebecca, Dave Farland, Eric Flint, and Brandon Sanderson started more than 15 years ago The Masters of Creative Writing with a focus on Publishing that Kevin teaches at Western Colorado University The annual anthology that this program publishes thanks to sponsorship from Draft2Digital The latest musical collaboration Kevin recently announced Kevin coming to Toronto's Massey Hall for RushFest on August 1, 2025 What books Kevin and Mark are currently working on Favorite advice for running a Kickstarter and the real costs of shipping and handling Kevin's love of hiking and dictating when he writes And more . . . Links of Interest: Kevin J Anderson's Website WordFire Press Kevin's Terra Incognita Kickstarter Western Colorado University Publishing Masters Superstars Writing Seminars Buy Mark a Coffee Patreon for Stark Reflections How to Access Patreon RSS Feeds Mark's YouTube channel Mark's Stark Reflections on Writing & Publishing Newsletter (Signup) An Author's Guide to Working With Bookstores and Libraries The Relaxed Author Buy eBook Direct Buy Audiobook Direct Publishing Pitfalls for Authors An Author's Guide to Working with Libraries & Bookstores Wide for the Win Mark's Canadian Werewolf Books This Time Around (Short Story) A Canadian Werewolf in New York Stowe Away (Novella) Fear and Longing in Los Angeles Fright Nights, Big City Lover's Moon Hex and the City Only Monsters in the Building The Canadian Mounted: A Trivia Guide to Planes, Trains and Automobiles Yippee Ki-Yay Motherf*cker: A Trivia Guide to Die Hard Merry Christmas! Shitter Was Full!: A Trivia Guide to National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
Patrick explores the power of the Divine Mercy with Drew Mariani, offering listeners a chance to deepen their spirituality. Patrick also highlights the generosity of listeners during the pledge drive, emphasizing the importance of community support to sustain the mission. Drew Mariani and Patrick Madrid talk about their love for the Divine Mercy (4:04) Adam - Just curious if gifts are stacked during the pledge drive? I donated $600, will I receive the book, the divine mercy statue, and the Jesus on the Way to Calvary and Mary statue? (20:01) Mark - How can I appreciate the art of a flawed artist? (23:36) Rebecca – Would purchasing a golden miraculous medal be okay? (27:35) Email – I was excommunicated, and I didn’t know it! (34:08) Christina - What are the requirements for the brown scapular? (45:01)
Patrick explores a fascinating discussion with a caller about the lifelong impact of holy orders in the Catholic Church. He explains the concept of the indelible mark on the soul, what happens when a priest leaves the clerical state, and the detailed process of laicization. This conversation sheds light on the profound and permanent nature of being a priest. Ken (email) – Your opinion on people's salvation is inconsistent (00:38) Karen (email) – Responds to Ken's email and writes “You told that woman her husband is in hell…” (Patrick did not say that) (19:46) Margie - Some priests don't where their clerics and it makes me upset (24:27) Michael - What does it mean if a priest is defrocked? What do you think about the book 'Heaven in our Hands' where it says that the Sermon on the Mount might not have been Christ's actual words. What do you think. (34:54) Mark - How much should we be telling children about heaven and hell and other heavy topics of our faith? (45:08) Kevin - Why can I bless my children, but not other people? (47:18)
In this hour, Patrick is diving deep into some thought-provoking topics that intersect faith, technology, and society's current challenges. He starts by exploring the recent controversy surrounding Google's AI image generation, discussing the blatant bias against white people. he also examines how misinformation related to the spread of Covid-19 is impacted by technology's inherent biases, and why discerning truth from deep fakes is vital. Patrick starts the show with a thoughtful email in response to the heavy topic yesterday of divorce and what it does to children. If you haven't been told you are worth it, you are. E-Frank - If you break any of your Lenten practices, can you stop Lent all together? (04:48) Mark - How can I talk about the organizational structure of the Church to non-Catholic friends? Google to pause Gemini image generation after AI refuses to show images of white people (22:32) Patrick shares a couple of emails in response to E-Franks call from earlier in this hour Dennis - I am not Catholic myself, but one day I was in my car and came upon Catholic Radio, which started my many years of listening. Now I am investigating the Catholic faith in a deeper way.
Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com Season 5 - Episode 1 ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder, Science Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark, Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we are talking about what happens after the frenzy of the holiday season. I know for a lot of people it's kind of a relief because it's very stressful and anxiety provoking, but for others the holidays really are kind of a haven in the midst of winter, and when they end there's sort of a letdown of No more parties, no more decoration, no more booze and sugar, you know, all that kind of stuff. And it's hard because it's the coldest, darkest time of the year. Yucca: Right. Mark: So, we're going to talk about that today. Yucca: Yeah. As you were saying that, I was thinking of that feeling that you get when your body, when you've had a bunch of adrenaline in your body, and then it fades, and all of a sudden you're like, oh, Mark: Yeah. Welcome to, welcome to cortisol. Yucca: yeah, now my arms are heavy, now what do I do? Right. Mark: Yeah. I Really resonate with that right now because my work has been extremely busy. I wasn't able to take time, um, in the last two weeks of December. So, really been sprinting and there is that sort of sense now here in, you know, we're recording this on December 30th. On the Saturday, and I, so I get these three days, and I'm in this mode of what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? Because I've been so doing for so long, right? Yucca: Yeah. So I guess this is really a good opportunity to talk about the Well, transitions in general, but especially transition out of the holidays, and also the in between time. We'll come back to this in a minute, but the in between holidays, because at least those of us who follow the Wheel of the Year, we have a lot more holidays than most people do, but there's still these big chunks of time that we're in between, and what do we do during that in between? Bye. Period. I think it's a really potent, powerful time period, but in a very different way than holidays are. Mark: Yes, I agree. And then that leads us into, well, okay, well, when you're not celebrating, because you can't I mean, well, at Yucca: day is a celebration in some ways, but Mark: one level, we can be and hopefully are celebrating all the time because there's a lot to celebrate. But in the times that are between the peaks of that, how do we, how do we live as pagans every day? Yucca: Right. Mark: How do we, how do we enact that in our behavior? How do we choose it in our focus? And are what we pay attention to, um, so we'll be talking about that too. Yucca: Yeah. Yeah, I'm really happy that this is coming out on the first of the year. Seems like a good welcome to 2024 kind of thing. Mark: It does. 2024. Can you believe it? Yucca: It no. Mark: No. No. Yucca: time, it feels like a sci fi Year. Does not feel like a real, Mark: That's Yucca: we're actually here. Mark: Yeah. 2024 by Arthur C. Clarke. Yucca: starting with the transitioning out we still have our solstice celebration decorations up, but in the next few days, those are gonna start coming down, and it's gonna be, we still have a lot of wintry things out. So. Because at just the time of year we just like having our wintry things, because that's what's going on, but it's not going to be that solstice, right? It's not that, or Christmas, or whatever it is that it that folks are doing, it's not going to be that anymore. And so there's always kind of a, like a bitter sweetness to taking those things down. Mm Mark: It leaves a void in your home and in your sense of the specialness of the time. My Partner Nemea really gets a lot of psychological benefit out of the Yule tree, the solstice tree. And so we will still keep it up for another couple of weeks. Which means that we always miss the window for the Yucca: Pick up. Mark: company coming to pick it up. Which means I have to chop it into little pieces and fit it into a yard waste bin. But and I keep the trunk for next year's Yule Log, so I have to do some chopping anyway. But You know, this is a moment where the hoopla is fading, and then you're left with, well, we're back to school, we're back to work, and it's gray and cold, Yucca: And this particular year, it's fast since New Year's is happening on a Monday. Everybody's back on a Tuesday. If it was in the middle of the week, then usually things wouldn't start until the next week. But it's like, boom, here we go. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the, one of the jokes that I've always made because my birthday is January 3rd is that my birthday is always the day you go back to work. It's, you know, it's always, it's like, okay, the party's over and now it's time to celebrate me. Right. And it's like, well, we're sick of parties and we're sick of sweets and we're sick of booze. And we're, it's like, we don't want to get together in gatherings. We've been doing that for three weeks. Yucca: And I'm guessing as a kid, even though you're not a December birthday, you still probably got the let's just, this is your, this is your birthday present and your Christmas present all wrapped up to Mark: You know, honestly, I don't remember that happening. Um, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Yucca: And I know a lot of December babies who complain about that. Mark: yeah. Well, I mean, one of the things that's frustrating about it, of course, is that it would be nice to have a holiday some other time through the year because I'm kind of sick of parties and booze and sweets and presents and all that kind of stuff. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: you know, and I actually have had half birthday parties a couple of times. On July 3rd. Yeah, so it's like, okay, I'm 46 and a half now. Time to have a party. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: so, anyway, let's talk a little bit about that, that transition, that, that kind of coming down off the peak. Because that's a real thing. I mean, it's a neurochemical thing. It's not just, it's not just something you can necessarily talk yourself out of because there is a change in modality from go, go, go, gotta be festive, gotta be festive, to okay, I have to be able to focus for work now. I have to, you know, I have to take the kids to school all those kinds of sort of more mundane things that get you rooted back into the groove of your, your routine life. Yucca: Mm hmm. Yeah. I think there's potential in when you, because those things are all things that are things you really actually have to do. There's a physical component to those things. And there's an opportunity to take a moment just to be aware of what you're doing as you're doing that. And there's a moment right there for that intention of recognizing, okay, I'm taking down the tree. Right? Or, I'm getting back in the car, first, first day back in the car in the whole year. Just gonna take a few seconds to close my eyes and think about what this means and be conscious of the transition. Mark: Mm hmm. And because it's a Because it's a shift from the out of routine nature of the previous few weeks, it gives you an opportunity to look at your established routine and decide whether that's really what you like. I mean, there are things you don't have a choice about, you do have to take the kids to school, you do have to do grocery shopping and all that kind of stuff, but maybe there are other things in your life that are habitual that you don't necessarily want to continue, or things that you want to add, Yucca: Right? And that's, we talk a lot about how COVID has shaped and changed the world. I think that's one of the places where it really did so many people. It was like an extended period of out of the norm, and several months, years, rockiness of going back to the routine, but getting to go, is this the routine that I want? And for a lot of people, the very, very loud no, Mark: Yeah, Yucca: And not that we're necessarily able to make all the changes that we would like to, but it gave us the opportunity to be aware that it could be different. Mark: well, and the biggest example of that, I think, is that in order to conduct business at all, many businesses had to go to remote Yucca: Mm Mark: And when they went to remote work, workers found they liked it. They didn't like the expense and the time loss and the stress of a commute. They didn't, they, they'd much rather work at home if not full time than certainly part time. And now employers are sort of strong arming many workers to get them back into the office, and the workers are balking. You know. There are tech workers that have moved out of California to small towns in the Midwest, and they're like, I'm not coming to the office, folks. I'm just, I'm not doing it. I mean, I'll, I'll fly in a couple of times a year for some kind of key thing that needs to happen. But, you know, on a daily basis, everything I do is over the wire anyway. So, leave me alone. Let me do my job. Yucca: I have to say, as someone who's pretty rural, to get into town is about an hour for us. So I love it. It makes there's so many things. I have a doctor's appointment coming up this week that I don't, that I don't need. It's just a consultation, right? They don't need to actually take any vitals. So I'm not going to drive anywhere. They're not going to drive anywhere. We're just going to hop on the computer for a minute. Boom. Mark: Yeah, telemedicine is a big deal, and especially for people living in rural areas. The advent of telemedicine is a huge step up in the quality of their care. So, yeah, it's a good thing. Yucca: And education, Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: There's so much stuff, you know, I provide it that way, my kids get it, where we can be rural and have access to people all over the world. So, anyways, that's our tangent from returning to normal life. Mark: tangent number one for this episode. Yeah, I mean, we get to reconsider what kind of life do we want to have within the constraints of the things we don't have a choice about. And that is, honestly, That's, that's the definition of freedom, really, you know. Freedom isn't absolute, I can do whatever I want. Freedom is, there are things that are out of my control that are constraints that I'm going to have to meet like having to eat, stuff like that. And then there are other things that I have choices about, and that's where you have liberty. That's where you get to make decisions. Yucca: Well, and if we go with that, you have choices on how you do the required things. Right? So, just using the, you have to eat, well, okay, but I get to choose what, and when, and, you know, all those sorts of things Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: does a, that element is a choice, right? And we can do that with everything in our lives, Mark: Yes. Although Yucca: well, there's, again, there's certain things we do not have control over as individuals, right? Mark: what I was going to say is that when you're in a family situation and you have kids that you're making decisions for, that's another constraint because it's like, you might not want to eat until nine o'clock at night, but if their bedtime is seven, then you need to make sure that they're fed. They're just things you don't have a choice about, right? Yucca: But how do you respond Mark: yes. Yucca: to the fact that you have these people who are dependent and they have needs? How do you, how do you then respond, right? While still meeting those needs? You get to, as a parent, you don't have to do it a certain way because grandma did it that way. Mark: Oh, Yucca: You get to, you get to, you know, and there's lots of things grandma did that was awesome and other things grandma did that, oh my goodness, let's, let's not even talk about them, but you get to look at that and say, how does this work for my life? And how does this work for theirs? And get to make those choices, Mark: it's a good time for reflection, the beginning of the year. We talked about that last week some. Just to be really clear, you know, this is my life, it's my artwork, and I'm gonna do what I can within the constraints of what I've got. You know, if I've got a 2x4 canvas, I can't paint a 6x8 painting. That's the nature of the thing. But you still have an awful lot of choices about what you put on that canvas. Um, so, so yeah that's, that's a place to start is feeling some agency. I think that one of the things about the post holiday letdown can often be feeling like you're sort of getting back into the harness and having less choices and, you know, less opportunity to just be happy and celebrate and stuff. And that isn't entirely true. It's just that you have to do it within the constraints of what your life demands of you on a daily basis. So, let's talk a little bit about that. Dark time that we're coming into. I mean, it's not so dark. The light is, well, it is dark, but the light Yucca: depends on where you, yeah, it depends on your environment. I mean, I can certainly notice that the days are getting longer, but there's, there Still really, really short right now. Mark: Yes. And where I am, it's, Yucca: we're going into the coldest time of the year. Even though it's not going to be the darkest, it's the coldest, most bitter, windiest, you know, it really is going to be true winter. Mark: hmm, hmm. Yeah. Here I'm very pleased to report from California that we're getting a lot of rain. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: But that means that it's overcast and gray and we get tule fog in the morning on the mornings when it gets down around freezing. And it's It's, it's rarely bitter because when it does freeze, it's usually because it's clear. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And so the heat is radiated away from the earth and not been reflected back by clouds. But the, the, the time still feels cold and you know, you, you kind of have to bundle up and, and the days are still very, very short. Yucca: Mm hmm. And the shadow's long. That's the other thing that I always think about this time of year. Even when the sun is at its highest point in the sky, The shadows are just still long. Mark: they are. Yeah. Yucca: Yeah. So, and we're going to talk more about this time of year, especially in a few weeks we'll talk slog, right? Mark: Slug. Yucca: But you also have the stretches of time period between holidays in general, right? And some, some holidays get more attention than others. sOme of them kind of, and this depends on each person individually but some of them just sort of get, you just sort of glide over them more easily than Mark: Mm hmm. Mm Yucca: I mean, I guess that for most, most people there's a few really big ones that we can pretty consistent throughout the whole community. The winter solstice, hollows. Those are usually pretty big ones. On the other side of the year, what would you think? May? Mark: Yeah, Yucca: and maybe the equinox? But the other ones kinda Those are ones that sort of fall between the cracks sometimes. Mark: Well, the overculture, the mainstream culture, doesn't have corollary holidays at those times. And so we don't get, we don't get the help of there being a day to take off or a set of themes like the Easter bunny and chocolate eggs or, Yucca: Although May, we don't really get that either, but I think there's just such the still the powerful image of the maple and flowers Mark: right, Yucca: That's, that's still kind of hanging on there. Mark: Yeah, um, and another, another tradition that's really embraced in the pagan community is Morris dancing, the season for which starts on May Day where they dance up the sun and then it ends on the autumnal equinox when they dance down the sun. And in some cases, I mean, I've seen people that, I've seen reports of Morris teams that are now like dancing down the sun on the winter solstice, which I think is also very cool, but, dancing around wearing bells in the snow takes a particular kind of character, I think, not one that I have. Yucca: Right. And again, depends on your climate, right? A lot of that happening in, you know, southern Britain, they don't, yeah, they might get some snow, but it doesn't stick around the way you might have snow in, say, Wisconsin. Right. Yeah. It's very different places. Mark: So we settle into our lives again and start doing the things. And I guess this is what brings us to This idea of being a pagan every day, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mm Mark: right? Even when you're not, you know, putting on your, your fancy rags and, you know, going out to a, a celebration on at the beginning of February or at the spring equinox or whatever it is, Yucca: hmm. Mark: you know, there's, there's a way of being aware of what's going on around us in the natural world and a way of looking for the beauty and the opportunities to celebrate and to be happy that. thAt characterizes a pagan life, I think, and it's always a work in progress, but I've certainly found that, especially since my pagan practice became atheopaganism, explicitly, um, I just, I have more happiness now, because, because I'm, I'm making it, I'm choosing it. And of course we have so much grim, dire, dystopian talk in our mainstream culture. I think it's really beneficial to teach yourself, you know, to get wowed by flowers and the shapes of clouds and, Yucca: hmm. Mark: you know, the, the color of the sunset and, You know, that, that new picture from from the James Webb Telescope and, you know, all those. Just cool, cool things. The conjunction of Jupiter and the Moon, you know, pretty fantastic. Yucca: Yeah, and that isn't something that is a switch you can flip. It's not where you can just say, I am going to be a more joyful, happy, grateful person. It's something that you practice and become by doing. And that's where the daily practice really comes in. Mark: Yeah, it's a muscle. You have to, you have to exercise it, and it will become stronger over time. Yucca: Right. Mark: And a daily practice for me is really important, and I don't have a super elaborate daily practice, but it's still something that I go back to every day. And it just reminds me, okay, I am, I'm on a pagan path, I'm revealing the natural world, I'm connected with all this, and this is the lens that I turn on the world. This is, this is how I understand things. And that helps me. Yucca: Yeah. And what that practice is can and will look different for every person and for different points throughout our lives. Mark: Yes. Yucca: I'm guessing that your daily practice is different than it was 10 years ago, than it was 20 years ago, probably even different than it was 5. There's probably some core elements, but there's things that change. Throughout whatever's happening in your life, what are the things you need? And, you know, maybe there are things that really do work. There are certain things that work and we come back to. And then things that become more important at different points. Mark: And what's lovely about neopaganism is that you are not prescribed rituals, you can design rituals that fit with yourself and your current needs and your own creative aesthetic and what the, the freedom in that. And the, the precision with which a practice can address your personal needs is really amazing. Yucca: hmm. Mark: is. And you can try lots of different stuff until you find something that goes, Ooh, that's really good. I want to do that every day. Yucca: And there is not shame at all in trying out research. Something that you didn't completely invent, right? If you find something that somebody says, Hey, this is a way to do it, you do this, this, and this, and you try that out, and you do that, and kind of dedicate yourself to being consistent with it for a several week process, or however long you decide is what works for you there's value in that. You don't, because one of the things in neopaganism is sometimes it can be a little Overwhelming for people. It kind of just seems like this free for, oh, whatever works for you, whatever works for you. Sometimes people are like, yeah, but I don't know what works for me. I need a starting point, something. Yeah. And that's not, that's not necessarily a bad thing. That's just where somebody is at that moment. And, and then they get to know themselves better as they go through this process. And that's something that we can come back to, right? Yeah. Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: adding new things in, and you don't have to know from the get go exactly what's going to be the right fit for you. Mark: No. Yucca: You change over time. Mark: And, and. At least in the naturalistic pagan pathways that we talk about here, um, you can do it any way you want that works for you, that's fine, but you can also be inspired by other sources in other traditions, which doesn't mean stealing them, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: but it means being inspired by them because there are a lot of things that are so called ritual technologies. Yucca: Mm Mark: That are very powerful. And, I mean, lighting candles, right? I mean, people light candles all over the world for a lot of different reasons in sacred contexts. So you're not stealing anything from anyone by lighting a candle or burning incense or, you know, that kind of stuff. But it can still be, you know, very evocative and powerful for you. You've talked about, um, the Simmerpot at your house, Yucca. And that's, I mean, that's a ritual practice, right? It's something that you do in order to create scents in the home that reflect your seasonal aesthetic and, you know, and that's another reminder of, oh, oh, it's spring, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: you know, oh, the, the, the smell changed. Mama changed the smell. So, we're in a different time now. Yucca: And they're old enough now that sometimes they get to be involved in the choice. Mark: Oh, Yucca: they're real little, it just happens. But as they get a little bit older, it's, hey! What do you think? Which one today? What do you mean both? Okay, let's try both. That's almost always the answer. I don't know if that'll go, but sure, let's try it. So yeah. Mark: In yeah. Terry PR in the, the BBC production of the Terry Pratchett Novel Hog Father, which is the only holiday movie that I have to watch every year. Yucca: We read the Hogfather every year. Mark: Do you? Yeah, yeah. There's this wonderful line by one of the, the wizards at the the University of Uns, the unseen University of on Mor Pork, where he says, let's just take everything and mix it up and see what happens. And that's, that sounds very much like a five year old choosing what sense to put in a pot. Yucca: Yes. Mark: Don't wanna, you don't wanna miss out on anything, right? Yucca: Right. And so, you know, I try to be good first. Knowing that the everything in might be an option, you know, I limit it down to two or three options to begin with, but they still, it's still gonna be all of them. And if you ask multiple kids at the same time, they, out of principle, will choose the opposite of the other ones. Mark: Ah, okay. Individuation. It's a thing. Huh. Yucca: it was, I wish I had like a, you know, a save button in real life so I could go back and check what would happen if you did. Ask them independently, right? Like in games where you can be like, what if I chose the other dialogue? What would have happened? I wish we could do that in real life. So, Mark: daily practices. They can be a lot of different things. I mean, a daily practice can be going for a walk in your neighborhood. Yucca: Mm Mark: You know, for a half an hour every day and just looking at what's happening in the gardens or in the shop windows, or, you know, if you're in a big, dense, urbanized city you know, just what's going on with traffic right now you know, what, what are the clouds doing are there, are there wildlife around, are there birds that are, that are around that you don't necessarily see at other times of the year that, That function of paying attention. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And particularly paying attention to look for reasons to be happy is a learned skill, like, like Yucca was saying, and it sure improves your life. Yucca: Right, Mark: You know, one of the things that, that I have a really hard time with the Abrahamic religions about is that they don't seem to put much focus on being happy. Yucca: right. At least not the mainstream ones. I think we could say that they're definitely bran you, you could make that argument for Sufism or Quakers or, you know, there's branches that do bring that in, um, but not as a, that's not really the theme on the, on the big scale. Mark: no well, anyway, Yucca: That's a, another conversation about the whys behind that and Mark: Yeah, and it's not our subject. Yucca: the, Mark: You, you can find another podcast to learn about, you know, what they're going for and what, what their goals are. Yucca: Context for why it developed that way? Which is fascinating, but I personally don't know enough to actually really comment on that. I can say my guesses on, well, I listened to that, you know, that one podcast, and they said this and that, and that made sense to me, but that's not actually my field. So. Mark: Yep, very helpful when you know what you don't know. Which is, of course, one of the, the banes of the internet is that certain people are authorities on everything. You know, the Dunning Kruger, uh, syndrome, uh, Yucca: ways, right? The less you know, the more you think you do, and the more you know, the less you think you do. Mark: the less you think you do and the less certain you are about any of your conclusions. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: Which is why evidence is a good thing. But, just for us, I mean, Yucca: And this whole process that we've been sorting out over, over hundreds of years to try and get closer in and spiral closer and closer into truth. It's pretty great. Mark: it is. Yucca: I'm a big Mark: It is. And it spins out lots of things that are almost certainly true. There, there are things that are nailed down pretty well in terms of the way the universe works, and the way particular organisms operate, and, and that kind of thing. Now, at any given moment, there is an opportunity for some Contrary evidence to come along that shows that we don't completely understand them yet. But the fact that you're in New Mexico and I'm in California and we're talking now Yucca: Feels face to face. Mark: yes, and we can broadcast this for people all over the world to listen to is a reflection of the fact that we've gotten pretty good at predictable stuff in many ways. Yucca: hmm. Mark: Yeah, Yucca: And in other places, we've, we've got a long way to go, but. We've got a process to, a process to be able to approach it with. Mark: Yeah, to get there. Yucca: so, and when we talk about a daily practice, that's a process too. It may not necessarily be the scientific method, but you can actually bring a lot of that into your own life and that can be really helpful. Right, just some of those, the, Your observation and testing and all of that, but having the process is really the first step Mark: Yeah. And when you think about it, a lot of what people call a grimoire or a book of shadows, you know, those are great romantic names Yucca: for your lab book, for your field book, Mark: Exactly. That's, that's, that's exactly what it is. It's like, okay, I did this this time. It felt like this. This is what I would change. This is what I would keep. Onward we go. Yucca: right? And sometimes they even have very specific rules that you're supposed to follow, like writing in pen and, you know, all the things and dating it. Yeah, some, depending on what lab you're in, there's some. The rules can be pretty intense for how you do your notebook. Mark: Really? Yucca: Well, because they, well, again, depending on what the lab is, but you can later use that as evidence for patent disputes and all of that kind of stuff. Mark: I see. Yeah, that makes sense. You don't want that stuff written in pencil. Yucca: Yeah, so there's rules and now there's a lot of them have gone digital. But there's very specific rules about how you do it and even. So, one place that I worked, I had to have the supervisor initial when I crossed something out. They had to initial that it was like a second, a witness, basically, that you were crossing out in the notebook. So, Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: Yeah, like with a contract. If you cross something out you have to initial it. Yucca: yeah. But, the, when you're doing your Book of Shadow or something like that, you can come up with your own fun rules that you can do for whatever practical reason, but also Just because it makes it feel kind of special and, and, you know. Mark: Yeah. Have a special pen. There's a member of the Atheopagan Society Council who is a fanatic about fountain pens. Yucca: Ooh. Mark: And she has all these amazing fountain pens and ink, including Ultraviolet, sensitive, invisible ink. Yucca: Ooh. Mark: Isn't that cool? Yucca: like Mark: You have to shine a UV flashlight on it in order to read it, but the pages look completely blank otherwise. I mean, and there's, you know, there's all these wonderful inks like oxblood ink and, you know, all this stuff, which isn't actually made, isn't actually made from oxblood, it's just that color. Yucca: Oh, okay. It's gonna say the DM in me immediately thinks of using that pen for a secret message that you have to give the players and they can't decipher it until you give them the right the right prop or something. Mark: Yeah, yeah like a wand that glows UV, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Something like that. That would be really cool. Yucca: You just come up with some fantasy sounding name for it instead of UV, though. Mark: Right. Yucca: Yes. Mark: Well, we used to have ultravision and infravision in Dungeons Dragons. That got turned into darkvision, which is a catch all. Covers You know, so instead of seeing a heat imprint, um, or, you know, seeing at far distance because the ultraviolet is more penetrating you just have this one magical thing that just lets you see stuff that's further away. Yucca: Yeah, you just explain it in different ways, but it makes the The rolling work, the stats work easier. Mark: It does. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not going to talk about Shadow Dark. I really am not. We were talking before the thing, I got a new role playing game that I participated in the Kickstarter for, and it's, it looks really wonderful, and it's very simple. Very simple, modern mechanics, but a real old school kind of feel. So, that's all I'm going to say about Shadow Dark. Yucca: All right, um, well maybe that's one of those activities to do in the long stretches between holidays. Mark: Yes. If it's going to be dark, you might as well be in a dungeon. Yucca: right, yep, well this was great. Any other thoughts for the, for the new year, for our different topics today, of kind of the letdown from the holidays between. Holidays and daily practice. Mark: I, I guess the one thing that I would reinforce is to experiment, you know, really ask, ask uncomfortable questions about the routines in your life that don't serve you, and experiment with different ways to make that feel better, um, and that's, that And a daily practice, to me, really helps. The daily practice should not feel like a burden. Remember, the practice is for you, you're not for the practice. It's, it's not like, you know, it's not like Yucca: There's not some god that you're trying to please. Mark: right, or some religious institution. So this is all about you identifying. What helps you to live what feels like an optimized life. Because you know what? When people are happy, they spread it around. They, when people are happy, they empower other people. They Yucca: Just feel good to be around. Mark: yes, they feel good to be around. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And that's something we can all aspire to, I think. So yeah, this has been great, Yucca. Thank you so much for the conversation and Happy New Year! Yucca: Happy New Year, everyone!
In Episode 405 of District of Conservation, Gabriella discusses the state of the Endangered Species Act a half century in operation and laments the closure of the Orvis Arlington, Virginia, fly shop. Tune in to learn more. SHOW NOTES IWF Blog on ESA at 50 OSU: Most Americans support Endangered Species Act despite increasing efforts to curtail it PERC: A Field Guide for Wildlife Recovery PERC: Missing the Mark - How the Endangered Species Act Falls Short of Its Own Recovery Goals New WCF ESA at 50 ReportWestern Caucus Foundation ESA at 50 Report --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/district-of-conservation/support
Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com ----more---- Introduction and Welcome --- Yucca: Welcome back to The Wonder Science Based Paganism. I'm your host, Jekka. Mark: And I'm Mark. Reflecting on the End of the Year --- Yucca: And today we are talking about the end of the year and the beginning of a new year. So once again, here we are at the end of a year, Mark: Yeah, so it's a good time for reflecting on what the, what this round of the cycle has been, and then looking forward into the next year we were saying before we started to record, we're still in that, that kind of held breath in the middle of, of the winter solstice season, at least in the, in the northern hemisphere, where Everything seems to kind of stop for a moment, even though there's this frenzy of activity in your personal life, most, many people are not working. There's just a kind of suspension of ordinariness, and there's this moment of what can be a really reflective still time, as well as a very festive time, Yucca: right? This episode should actually come out Christmas morning. So, early Christmas morning, Mark: always a tranquil and reflective time. Yucca: Yes, very relaxed, there's nothing going on. Discussing the Timing of the New Year --- Yucca: Before we get into all of that, let's talk about the timing of the New Year. Okay. Because we're talking about the calendar switching New Year, which many people count as the New Year. For me, that's usually what I go with. That's the turning of the calendar. But for some folks, it's actually at Hallow, some people it's the Solstice, some people change at the Equinox, right? When's New Year's for you? Mark: I have two tracks for that, and they're offset by about ten days. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: For me, the beginning of the sacred cycle of the year is at the winter solstice. But then there's the calendar year, which, you know, as we say, when you're dating something, what number do you put at the end of the of, of the date that you're writing, that changes on January 1st, and so January 1st is also a hinge point, a moment when there's a transition, and that gives us the opportunity to do what we're doing today, which is look back, kind of review what that's all been like for the past cycle, and then imagine and dream forward into the new cycle. Yucca: Mm hmm. For me it's very fuzzy because since I don't have, typically I'm not working on the 31st or the 1st. The exact moment there isn't really a switch over, it's just this sort of fuzzy time period where it's like, oh yeah, it's the new year. I think, kinda, now I gotta get used to writing this other date, but it hasn't really happened yet. it Really takes about until February to get used to it being a different year. Mark: Mm. Reflections on the Past Year --- Yucca: So, and some years just don't feel like they happened, especially in the last few years because of how things were so different with COVID, where some years just, like, feel like they're missing. Mark: Yeah, 2020, I mean, when it happened, 2020 felt like the longest year ever. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And then 2021 was like a continuation of the longest year ever, it was just more of the same. anD when the various Restrictions were relaxed, it almost felt like, it almost felt like that hadn't happened at all. Impact of COVID-19 on the Perception of Time --- Mark: Like, it was just this sort of separate time when we were all indoors and staying away from everyone but it was outside of history somehow. Yucca: It was almost like we went from 19 to 22. Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: Like, those, those years, I mean, they're there, but they're not in some ways. It's very, very odd. And this year So much has happened. It's actually quite difficult to keep track of what happened this year and what wasn't this year. Just thinking about what happened within this calendar year. It's, it's been a very full year. Mark: it really has. I mean, everything from floods and earthquakes and volcano eruptions to, you know, political happenings here and there and wars and humanitarian crises, you know, and of course that's what the news feeds us, which is all the bad news, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: BuT I think it's fair to say that this is a very uncertain time for a lot of people. Yucca: Mm hmm. Changes in the Work Environment --- Mark: I think about You know, in the, in the business world, in the economy, there's this huge movement of companies that are sort of hanging on by their fingernails to their old model and wanting to go back to 2019, and insisting that their workers come back to the office, and the workers are saying, actually, no, thank you, Yucca: Mm Mark: uh, this works much better for me in my life, and I'm not going. And it's, it's a very interesting standoff, Yucca: hmm. Mark: And it's one that I think the, the labor force, the working force is winning. I, I don't think that this idea about you have to be sitting in a chair in a cubicle in order to do your job is, is gonna succeed over the long term. Yucca: Right. At least within certain sectors. There are certain ones that are in person. Mark: Oh, service industries, for sure. Yeah, I mean, those people have to be there and doing their thing. I'm thinking specifically of people that were in an office. Yeah, people who were in an office and then were able to leave, which of course is a tremendous privilege. Challenges of Remote Work --- Mark: I now work fully remotely, and although there are things that are hard about it, like, for example, the fact that you could not register an organization to receive federal funding through, like, a cost sharing agreement or something like that, or a grant with the federal government if you don't have a physical address. Because the Patriot Act regulations consider that dodgy. So I, in order to prove that we really exist, I'm going to have to change the address on our bank account of my employer to my personal address, print out the, the, the bank statement that shows that address, and then change it back to the P. O. box that we have. Because we're a fully remote company and we don't have an office. So, it's just silly. Yucca: Wow. And you're not gonna, you don't have any zoning problems that are gonna come from that? Mark: No, Yucca: Okay. Yeah. Because there's certain areas where you gotta watch out for that, that you're not allowed to have particular businesses Mark: a Yucca: areas and, you know. Mark: I'm sure that that's true, but considering that it's going to last for less than 24 hours I don't really think it's a problem. The primary issue is, I think, they want to know where they can go to find a human being who is working for this company. And has some responsibility if they need to come after us for some reason. And I, there wouldn't be any reason they would need to come after us. I mean, we're a nonprofit organization. We can't even get in trouble with them for taxes. Yucca: Mm hmm. Yeah. But, but they can't go to a P. O. box. So. Mark: right. That's right. So we have to, I'm going to paint a target on my door and, and invite them to come find me. Reflection on Personal and Global Events --- Yucca: So, this year, though, there's things that have been happening on a big scale, Mark: yes, Yucca: and our personal lives, of course, are interwoven with that, right? But at the same time, a lot of what happens in our own lives really doesn't have a lot to do with the outside workings of, you know, what's happening with floods and hurricanes and wars and, you know, life just goes on. for listening. for regular folk. Looking Back and Looking Forward --- Yucca: And so each of us, you know, us, you and me, Mark, and everyone listening, we've all had our own years, our own lives that have happened, and I, we were talking a lot about this last week, about the, about solstice being this wonderful time for reflection. I think that's a, we can continue that in, and, and think about the whole year. And what has that meant to us, and what are some of the lessons that we have learned? Because we have learned lessons, right? And what are those? Mm Mark: of those lessons are things that have crossed our minds consciously, right? Like, okay, this is a situation that doesn't work for me, this is a situation that does work for me this is an activity that really feeds me and helps me to feel energized and happy. thIs is something that is a total waste of time that I've been doing for my entire life, and I'm gonna stop, you know, those kinds of things. But then there's also the sort of the subconscious part, the, uh, the reflection on what can be called shadow work, you know, where you look at All right, there were certainly challenges this year. I mean, I don't think I know of anyone who didn't have a challenge this year. Did I ride those out, and what did I learn from them, and what did they tell me about myself, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: right? What do they tell me about who I am? Because I think that one of the things that people are really struggling with right now is that we've been through a bunch of hardship with the pandemic and the Trump years and just a lot of really, Yucca: with the economy, Mark: yes, all that stuff. And you know, people, people still feel kind of beat up in many ways and very uncertain. And so, kind of digging down to find out, well, how do I live with that uncertainty? Am I doing okay? Am I, am I kind of walking, wounded, depressed right now? Not, not in a, in a So much a debilitating sense is just kind of a muffling sense, where you don't feel things as much as you used to, and the kinds of things that you enjoy doing, maybe you don't enjoy doing them quite so much. The Importance of Self-Reflection --- Mark: I think it's a good time for sort of a diagnostic take on, on how our mental health is going, and what in life is really serving us, and what in life is not. Yucca: Right? Setting Goals and Intentions for the New Year --- Yucca: Yeah, and thinking about that, the choice and intention that we have in that, right? What do we want? What is serving us? And what, what do we want? How do we want to be in this life? Is that something that I choose or you choose to continue to do? Because it is When it comes to how we're responding, it ultimately is a choice, right? It's not a choice whether, to us as individuals, whether who's in office or what wars are happening, right? But, but how am I, how am I going to respond is something that I have some influence over, and this is just a good time to think about that. Yeah. Mark: Yes. How am I going to show up to reality? Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And a perfectly legitimate approach to that, by the way, is a nice dash of escapism. You know, play your Dungeons and Dragons and watch your Netflix. I mean, checking out for a little while is something that can actually help support you at times when things seem a little overwhelming or unbearable. I mean, you probably want to curate those experiences so you're not watching super depressing movies. Maybe that's not the road you want to follow. Yucca: Unless that does it for you, right? My, my partner will look at things that are like, will get on Reddit and, you know, see the, the terrible relationships and the like, am I the asshole threads and go, wow, my life's not that bad. Mark: life is good, yeah! Yucca: that to be very, like, helpful. Now, if I look at that stuff, I just get it. so worked up and it makes it worse for me, but for some people that really does help. So it, so, you know, know yourself on that. Does that help? Does that not help? You know, what are you consuming? And is that, is that leading you in the way that you want to be developing yourself right now or not? Mark: absolutely. Yeah, that's well said. So, I think there's an opportunity, I mean, one thing that I do on New Year's Eve is I have a dark mirror. Which is a piece of, a circular piece of heavily tinted glass, which I then painted black on the back and put in a frame. Actually first I put a piece of cardboard in the frame and then the glass over the top of that so that there would be some, some backing so that it would be less likely to break the mirror, um, but then I also drew various sigils and arcane symbols and stuff on the cardboard before I put the glass on top of it, so they're, they're down in there somewhere. Yucca: So there's these layers. Okay. Mark: You can't see them at all through the glass, but they're there. And what I like to do is to sort of, you know, light a candle and contemplate my face in this dark mirror on New Year's Eve. I've only done it for a couple of years, but it's a cool thing. You can see this shadowy outline of your face. And if you just keep gazing into it, it all sort of dissolves into geometric shapes. And you just Then you find your mind wandering to particular places and things and ideas and thoughts and, and it's a It's an opportunity to check in with the subconscious, to sort of dip in a little bit and find out, well, what's going on down there? So, that's something you could do, I mean, by candlelight, you could do that with a regular mirror. Yucca: And then you get that lovely flickering with that. Mark: right, yeah. So, something to think about, or some other form of, you know, so called divination, like reading Tarot, or whatever those are. I like the ones, for this kind of work, I like the ones where you work essentially with random imagery and then see what your mind makes out of it, right? Like serumancy, dripping candle wax into water, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: and it creates shapes as it, you know, cools. And you can see different animals and symbols and all that kind of stuff. Yucca: Yeah? Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Mm hmm. I like the imagery of that. Mm hmm. Mm Mark: So that's looking back. That's, that's the work of reflection, which I think every person who really wants to be happy and wise has to do some of that. You know, you got to look at yourself. You got to look at the world. And there's, uh, you know, there's, there's a level of simply coming to terms and saying, okay, that's real. Yucca: Right. Mark: another level of going. And I'm grateful for all this other stuff that's going on, right? So, you know, the world is a very complex mixture. It's not like thumbs up, thumbs down, and the same is true of ourselves as individuals. And just coming to grips with all of that and having a level of acceptance and gratitude is very helpful, I think. thAt goes back to that thing about the three big lessons that I talk about. The big Okay, the big thank you and the big wow, Yucca: Right, so there's the reflection component there's the looking back and there's also the looking forward. Now I think the looking back, you've got to be able to do that, I think that really does need to come first, or part of it, to be able to look forward to What is it that you want, right? Mark: yeah, Yucca: And as we talked about last time, we're kind of in this dreaming period. We may not really be planting those seeds yet, but we are deciding what are those seeds that we might want to plant. What do we need to do to prepare? Mark: right. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And that goes into the ritual things that people do at the New Year around resolutions and all that kind of stuff, right? Because I mean, A New Year's resolution is rooted in an imagined self that has changed. It's like, okay, I picture myself and I do not drink six cups of coffee a day. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And that's great. You know, it's great to have a vision for where you want to go as a person, whether it's something minor or something major. Personally, I don't do New Year's resolutions, and the reason that I don't do them is that the popular framing of them is kind of like the little drummer boy game, where it's like once you lose, it's over. Yucca: hmm. Mark: And if you're really trying to do something hard to change yourself, you have to give yourself some slack. If you're trying to get sober, and you do that for a week and then you have a drink, you don't quit trying to get sober, you just start over, right? Yucca: Right, you get back up, dust yourself off, and keep going. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: So I think that one of the things that sometimes we are very good at or don't have a lot of practice in is that, that getting back up part and planning in how, what could go wrong and how am I going to respond when it does go wrong. Mark: Good point. Yucca: And I think that If you are incorporating that into your planning, whatever it is, whether you're planning your financial future, or the process of quitting smoking or drinking, or all of those, any of those things, you are, you're being more realistic, first of all, about the world that we live in, because mistakes do happen. You're, you're building in resilience to being able to better achieve whatever that is. So I think that's a really important step that we forget to do. Mark: Yes. And the self compassion step in there as well. Not excuse making, but recognizing that we're all fallible and that any kind of real personal transformation that's the kind of thing that a New Year's resolution might be made about is not easy, right? It's just not easy. And, um, it is remarkable the degree to which our behaviors as humans are. The Power of Habit and Routine --- Mark: Habitual. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: You know, we have routines for our day, we have routines for making our coffee, we have routines for, you know, what we do about lunch, we have just lots and lots of routines, routines, you know, when we're getting ready to go to bed. Yucca: And there's a very, very practical reason for all of that. So that all of that isn't taking up our space for the other stuff that we need to be doing. For all the other stuff we need to be thinking about. We're not, every time we make our coffee, we aren't going through those steps. We're not giving it the mental energy. Mark: Right. Okay, Yucca: something else. Mark: water. Yucca: Yes, oh wait, when I move my hand, yeah, that's all, that's all just ingrained so that we can do other things and pay attention to the things that might matter more. Now there's today probably not a tiger about to getcha, but we needed the space to be able to be aware for a possible tiger to get to. Now we're thinking about the interaction that we're going to have with our colleague or whatever we're going to tell to our uncle when they say that super offensive thing. But, yeah. Mark: Yeah. And so, because, because so much of what we do is this sort of pre programmed pathway of habit. It can be very hard to reprogram that stuff, because once you start the process, the rest of the steps are automatic. You do this, and then all of those other things just naturally follow. And to be able to be self aware enough in any given moment to say, wait, I'm not going to go any further with this. I'm going to do something else. That is an effort, and it, it requires some real focus, and if you're not able to do it all the time, it requires some real compassion with yourself, so that instead of feeling like a failure or, you know, a moral degenerate, you just feel like someone who is trying to do something hard and is learning how to do it. Yucca: Yeah. And another component is that, that doing those hard things is a skill, um, and sometimes we try to jump to, to a bigger task than we might be ready for, than a bigger change, right? Sometimes we might need to make some smaller changes, get good at practicing. That change before we go to something even bigger. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: And that's just going to depend on whatever it is that you're working on. Mm. Mm Mark: So, having said all that, I'm not a big fan of New Year's resolutions because, as I said, the idea is that it's like a piece of glass. It's like, if it's broken, then it's no longer of any use. And, So, to me, that's just, it's a very, well, frankly, a very Protestant way of looking at things. It's got a lot of judgment folded into it, and it just doesn't really work for me. Setting Themes Instead of Resolutions --- Mark: So what I like to do is to set themes for the new year that are kind of areas that I'm going to pay attention to and work to foster in my life. Yucca: Mm Mark: So, like, last year, My theme this year, actually, my themes were prosperity and security, um, because I hadn't had a job for a year and eight months at that point. I needed to get a job. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: you know, and I did get a job and now I'm working in it and it's lively. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: It's if, you know, Folks that are listening to the podcast that have been on the Facebook or Discord communities know that I am about to be appointed as the Interim Executive Director of the environmental organization that I work for, and there are crises that we are dealing with that are very challenging, and they're going to land in my lap when the previous Executive Director leaves, which was already planned before the crises happened. So, it's not his fault, but still it's, it's a very lively time, and I'm not getting time off at the holidays that I expected to get because I've got to work through the end of the year when he goes. So, but I got a job, and it's a good job working for The protection of wilderness and, and wild places and biodiversity hotspots. So that's, that's pretty cool work to be doing. Yucca: Yeah, so you like to set themes instead of resolutions. And is that something that you do, um, at the same time as your dark mirror ritual? Or is that a separate thing for you? Mark: That's kind of a separate thing. And it doesn't necessarily have to happen like on New Year's Day. Usually I, I do it in the first week of the year, something like that. Just as things are starting to get rolling again, the, the normality is reasserting itself after the strange, still frenzied window of the holidays. Yucca: Mm Mark: Um, so yeah, that's, that's generally when I do it, and I'm still not clear about what my themes will be for the coming year. Um, but I've started thinking about it. Right? Yucca: hmm. Mm Mark: Uh, I, I do have the, the advantage of not having, I mean, I'm going to my Ritual Circles Yule Gathering today, which is sort of my big social Christmas y, Yule y thing. Um, but, I have no plans on Christmas Day itself, so You know, at least that I get off, uh, and I don't know, I'm, I'm gonna try to pry out some more time next week if I possibly can, but it really just depends on what's going on. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: How about you? What are your New Year's practices? Yucca: It's not particularly formal. I, I do like the resolutions it, as long as it has the what we were built, we were talking about built into it where it isn't like a, oh well, I messed it up and can't try again. But I'm, I'm more of a fan of making choices and resolutions. When I, when it comes up, right? So I think that this is a really important time of year to be doing reflection, but I try and do that throughout the year. aNd I'm a little hesitant about the doing anything where I say, oh, I'll wait till Start it on Monday, or start at the beginning of the month, or start at the beginning of the year, because that stuff actually means you don't really want to do it, right? You're not going to do it. If you're really going to do it, start now. Not tonight, not tomorrow, not Monday, now. So I'm kind of in that camp of just like, if I'm going to do it, yeah, I'm a kind of cold turkey person, right? Or pull the band aid off, where just, I'm just going to do it. But know that sometimes I will slip up. And then I have to be, and I can't do the whole, oh, well, I guess, you know, I slipped up, I'll, you know, I'll just do it again and start better tomorrow. Nope, you just gotta be on it. And that's just my particular personality that I've Mark: Huh. Yucca: Some people are very different with that. But I do like the idea of there being a time where people are reflecting on what they want and actively deciding to make a change. Whether that ends up working out or not is a different thing, but I think that it's really important to have that. So I value that that's something that our culture does. I think we could work on the skills around that. Mark: Yeah, that, that's, that's a good point, too. The, yes, there are skills required to have that kind of discipline and, and self compassion. You know, the other thing I wanted to put a word in for is We tend to think of New Year's resolutions as always being something that's like, you know, taking your medicine. It's some, you know, I'm going to abstain from something or I'm going to Yucca: Well, the classic one is I'm going to go to the gym every Mark: Yes. Yucca: the going to the gym is the classic one, right? Yeah. Or losing that 20 pounds. Mark: Yes. Whereas It's also possible to have resolutions that are about good things that you want to add into your life, right? You know, you, you, you could certainly say to yourself, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna carve out Sunday afternoons and I'm gonna go for a hike every Sunday afternoon. That's what I'm gonna do. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And that's good for you. I mean, that, that, that would be a pleasurable experience that you'd be doing for yourself. You know, something that's additive to your life, you know, it could be I'm going to start having date nights and I'm going to have more sex in my life. It could be I'm going to make sure that I get to that restaurant that I love so much once a month. You know, any of those things. Yucca: And let's, let's take one of those as an example. Let's say it's the going for a hike on Sundays, right? Planning for Success in the New Year --- Yucca: If that is the thing that you're thinking about, well, you can go, okay, well, What can I do right now to help set that up to be more likely for me to be able to do that? And for me, that would be, I'm going to put it in my calendar right now. It's pretty easy to do that. I have a digital cal I like, I have a physical and a digital, but my digital is my main one, then I copy it onto my physical and go, okay, I'm going to see that on my calendar every day. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: And then I'm going to think about, okay, well, what am I going to do If the weather is XYZ, right? Okay, I'm going to set it up right now that I have the equipment that I need to be able to do it. So if it's raining, I'm not going to go, oh, I guess I can't go out because I don't have a raincoat. I just got myself a raincoat, so I can go out, right? I've looked up places that I can go. So when you're in this, like, I'm, when you're in the moment of deciding that that's what you're going to do, you've got energy around it. Think about how you can set yourself up to succeed in that. Mark: Yeah, I mean, in the hiking example, I think one thing that you can do immediately is go get yourself a pair of hiking boots. Yucca: Yeah, right? Get yourself the hiking boots and figure out some of the places. Maybe find a group, if that's what you want to do. Maybe you don't want to go with a group, but is there a group that That is doing it, that you could, that you could join with and then have the positive peer pressure component to it, right? And we always say peer pressure is like this bad thing, but sometimes it's really helpful, right? Like, we've said it before, if this podcast was just one of us trying to do it, Wouldn't have worked, right? Because each week I know, oh, Mark's gonna be there waiting for me. Okay, I'm gonna do it. Whereas if it was just me by myself, we would have gotten a few episodes in 2020 and that'd be it. Right? Mark: Well, yeah, there is something about being accountable to other people. And creating whatever it is that you're trying to do to build some accountability expectation on the part of other people. I know meetup. com tends to have lots of hiking groups and, you know, people that like to do various outdoor things, so that's a resource that you can look for. Yucca: Right. And of course, whatever your goal is, I just grabbed that one because that was an easy one to talk about, right? But, but the point of it is to think about what's going to help me succeed, what might get in the way, how can I respond when that does happen? Because it, there will be a day that the weather is off. There will be a day that you're feeling sick. There will be, those things will happen. So, what are you going to do when they do? Mm Mark: right. And the good news is that as you start doing the thing and enjoying it, since we're talking about things that are additive, that are, that are, you know, that are pleasurable in your life, Um, it will feel weirder and weirder not to do it, because we are creatures of routine, right? And you can get that routine making pattern on your side if you just build up some consistency. Yucca: hmm. Mark: So starting at least with a social group, and I find that a social group is good for hiking. I mean, I like solo hiking a lot, but One thing that a social group is good for is that interactions with other people will tend to distract you from whether your body is hurting or not. Yucca: Yes. Mark: know, if you're having a conversation on the trail and your legs are starting to hurt, you'll, you'll tend to tamp that down to continue the conversation on the trail. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: So, you know, while you're building strength. Yucca: Right. All right, well, Mark, are there other things that you can think about for this turning of the year? Mark: You know, not really. My birthday is two days after New Year's Day, and so the two of them often, you know, they kind of get mushed together. And So the reflection piece tends to be, for me, it tends to be not just the last year, but also, like, life, Yucca: Right. Mark: What have I done? What am I doing? Where am I going? You know, all those kinds of big questions. So I do like to consider those as well, but I think that's really more of a birthday thing. You could do that at any time of the year, Yucca: Right, Mark: but a birthday is a good opportunity for it. Yucca: yeah, I think all of what we've been talking about is great for birthday whatever time of year your birthday is, Mark: Yeah. Even the resolutions, it's like a gift to yourself, right? You're gonna improve something. Yucca: new year, it's not the calendar's new year, but you're starting again, Mark: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And yep, and mine actually falls on a Wednesday, like the day I was born this year. Yucca: Oh, I was also born on a Wednesday. Mark: Where are you? We're full of woe! Yucca: Yes. I've always liked Wednesday because when I was little, I learned to spell it as Wed nest day. And so every time I write the word, I say Wed nest day in my mind, even decades later. So I've just always enjoyed that day. Mark: That's great. Yucca: So, just the little things to make. Make things fun and enjoyable, Mark: Sure. Yeah. Closing Thoughts and Farewell --- Yucca: Well, we will see everyone again. I think our next episode will be the first. So we won't see all of you until the 2024. Yes. Wow. That sounds like a sci fi date. That doesn't sound real. Mark: God, it's, it's, well, you know, there's so, Yucca: Shouldn't it be like some Book series, or like, sci fi action should be named 20, 24. Mark: You know, there are times when my partner Nemea and I, we look at some of the technological things that are happening and we just say we're living in the future. You know, we remember what it was like in the 70s when a Texas Instruments TI 30 hand calculator was both expensive and rare and, and incredibly powerful, right? And now, you know, now we're doing custom gene based healthcare for people. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: It's like, it's amazing. Yucca: it's a cool time to be alive, right? That's something we should say, it's been, for all the challenges that are world is facing and that we're facing and the crises and all of that. It's also really, there's a lot of cool stuff Mark: there is, Yucca: and just the things we get to learn and the tools we have to study with and, and the opportunities that just didn't exist before. Mark: Right? Right. Yucca: Yeah, there's a, there's a lot, there's a lot to be really grateful for. Mark: Absolutely, and there's, of course, a lot of improvement that needs to happen on many fronts, and that's our responsibility as people who want a better world, um, but I mean, I've known some activists who have fallen into this terrible hole of everything is awful and they're just cynical about everything because it doesn't meet their perfect dream. I don't remember who said it, but something like inside cynic is a frustrated optimist. aNd, uh, no, a frustrated idealist. That was it, a frustrated idealist. And I really work hard not to have that happen, because I think it's such a narrow view of the world. The world is amazing. Life is an amazing ride. And yes, there are terrible things in it, and that's just how it is. The big okay. Yucca: Yep, Mark: Yeah. Well, Yucca, thank you so much. I wish you a Merry Christmas, um, Yucca: and a happy new Mark: a Happy New Year. Yes whatever your celebrations are over the course of the next week I hope that you enjoy them and spend them loved and warm and cozy. Yucca: and we'll see y'all next year.
2020: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/the-winter-solstice/ 2021: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/winter-solsticeyule/ 2022: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/winter-solsticeyulemidwinter-2022/ Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Introduction and Welcome --- Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder of Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark, Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: and it's that time again. Discussion on Winter Solstice --- Mark: We're going to talk about the winter solstice and all the different things we call it, and what the themes of the season are, and how we celebrate it, and all that good kind of stuff. So happy solstice to everyone. Yucca: That's right. Happy solstice. it's, we're here already. Mark: End of 2023 already. Hard to believe. Yucca: Yeah. So, and the Reflection on the Show's Journey --- Mark: Does that mean we're going into season five? Yucca: we're going into season five. That's right. Mark: Whoa. Yucca: Yeah. On the one hand, it feels like forever. It feels like it's been a decade. On the other hand, I can't believe it. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: start doing this last year? Mark: Yeah. Something like. Yeah. Understanding the Solstice and its Significance --- Yucca: Yeah, well, let's talk about the solstice, and we'll link to some of our previous episodes of the solstice as well, because since this will be, we're going into Season 5, right? We've done this particular one, you know, several years before, and that's one of the lovely things about the Wheel of the Year, ? It keeps turning, and we keep coming back to it, Mark: Right. Yucca: again, and again, and again, but every year it's a little different. Mark: Mm hmm. It's a spiral rather than a circle. Yucca: Yeah, it's like those, you can look up animations of the solar system, but from the perspective, instead of having the sun stationary, having the sun moving through the galaxy, because it is moving just depends on what you're using as your frame of reference, but the planets all going along for the ride as well we're Orbiting the sun and moving with the sun as it goes through the galaxy. This reminds me of that spiral that we do. Mark: Huh. Huh. Exploring the Themes of the Holiday --- Yucca: So, but let's start with themes. So, Mark, what do you call this holiday? Mark: Well, that is a bit of a moving target. For many, many years I've called it Yule. I called it Yule in my book. Yucca: hmm. The Transition from Yule to Midwinter --- Mark: But I'm moving off that into midwinter. Yucca: Mm The Cultural Significance of Yule --- Mark: Um, for a couple of reasons, one of which is that Yule is still a cultural reference. It's a, it's a Scandinavian word that references a winter solstice y kind of holiday that happened around this time of year in those cultures. And I've been very careful not to be drawing from any cultures in my practice. Yucca: hmm. Mark: midwinter, you know, it's the corollary to midsummer. At the summer solstice, and so that just seems like it feels pretty appropriate to me. Yucca: Nice. Okay. Mark: How about you? The Personal Connection to Solstice --- Yucca: uSually solstice, just the winter solstice or solstice sometimes first winter. I don't use midwinter because it's not midwinter for us. Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: The, it certainly isn't the start of winter the way it's shown on like the calendar in terms of the astronomical seasons, but it's been winter for a month at this point, ? But we will not be into midwinter until, midwinter is more, you know, January, you know, end of January for us where we'll really be in the middle of winter. So, yeah, usually solstice, I've never really connected with the name Yule. I think it's pretty. It's on cards that people send. But it, just I've never had that connection with it. The Separation of Solstice and Christmas --- Yucca: I don't know, it, it, also you'll me, it still has more of a Christmas association. Like, it's still very Christmas. And even though Christmas is happening around the same time, for me, the solstice and Christmas are two very separate things. Mark: Yeah, I guess in my case, because I've really just, I've abandoned Christmas. So I have a lot of people around me, of course, who are celebrating it at work and so forth. The Celebration of Solstice --- Mark: But I, I just adopted solstice celebration and that's what I do now. So I have a tree for that rather than for Christmas, for example. We were just putting lights on it and discovering that the new lights, there aren't quite enough of them. So now we desperately have to find some more and get them delivered immediately. So that'll be fun. They're, they're LEDs. that have a phone app where you can adjust the lights and the patterns and Nemea really, really is excited about this. Yucca: Okay, nice. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Lovely. Mark: yeah. Yeah. I haven't seen it at night yet, but it'll be pretty, I'm sure. So, yeah, I'm moving away from Yule. Yule seemed like kind of a harmless name to use. When I was writing my book, as opposed to, like, the Celtic names and stuff like that, that feels appropriative to me, and not really relevant to who I am and where I live and all that kind of stuff. Yucca: But in retrospect, it's seeming a little appropriate to you right now. Well, Mark: believe you can appropriate from a dead culture. So I'm not so worried about appropriating Scandinavian stuff from a Norse Worshipping tradition that didn't exist for a thousand years or so after Christianization. But, Yucca: still a lot, depending on where, like in Iceland, and there's still there's still some that is around today, Mark: oh, absolutely. Yucca: not necessarily in the same maybe strength that it was or, or prominence, but there's still aspects of that around. Mark: Well, and there's a resurgence. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: I mean, I think that if we had looked at things in 1950, we probably would have seen a few folk practices, but not really anything that was as organized as, you know, a religious practice, for example. But I, I don't know enough about it to say for certain one way or another. In any case it's safer to simply abandon that name and move with one that's more more generic and English. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: But, you know, when I first came into paganism, everybody called it Yule, and that was okay, and Yucca: That was just what you were around, yeah? Mark: Yeah, um, so whatever you call the winter solstice, and you may call it midsummer if you live in Argentina or, or Brazil, um, whatever you call it we're here to talk about celebrating it, and why don't we talk some about some of the themes that come up at this time of year. There's so much with it. Iconography to this season, you know, with the trees and the Santa Claus and the reindeer and the on and on and on and on. Yucca: You know, I wish that everybody could see the backgrounds that we both came in with today, because there's a huge difference. So, Mark, you've got this scene with this, the pie. I don't know what trees those are back there, but you're Your conifers with the snow on it, and this little night scene, and this little house and it's these dark, you know, blues and grays. And then my background, and this was not planned, is the sun. And it's an up close of the bright bright sun with all the convection cells and Mark: and prominences bursting off the limb. Yucca: of it. The Symbolism of Light and Dark --- Yucca: Yeah and I think that that reflects a big theme for this time of year is the the relationship between the light and the dark and the sun and the night and all of that. Mark: Ooh, nice, nice segue. That was great. Yeah. Yes the whole question of how we relate to darkness. is very much up at this time of year, because there sure is a lot of it in the Northern Hemisphere. And boy, the days are short now, and they're going to get even shorter. Yucca: At my latitude, we get about 14 and a half, almost 15 hours of night at solstice. Mark: wow. Yeah, Yucca: north it's even more extreme. Mark: I think we get close to 16 hours. No, Yucca: No, you can't know not that much, but yeah. Mark: Yeah, 16 and a half hours. 15 and a half hours. Okay, third time's the Yucca: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm The Importance of Rest and Reflection --- Mark: yeah, so, waking up in the dark, finishing work in the dark I, I feel a lot of empathy for people who have commutes during that time, because of course I've done that for many years of work at home, so that's a, that's a relief. And the whole piece about how we fear the dark, and Metaphorically how we fear the darkness in ourselves, the, the, the not so nice stuff. The, uh, the sub, the, the submerged stuff that we've pushed down. tHis is a time of year that's often associated with dreaming and with ghosts and. I see that as useful fodder for contemplation, um, you know, trying to get more of a handle on, well, what am I pushing down? What am I ignoring? What am I afraid of in myself that I'm, that I'm repressing? And maybe it's stuff that needs repressing, that's okay but I'd still like to be aware of it. And, you know, be making conscious choices around all of that. So that's, that's a part of how I come to this season when it relates to light and dark. How about you, Yucca? Yucca: Yeah, I mean, the dark of this going in is a big theme for me. The peaceful, restful night in which you have the deep self reflection and there's a stillness. about it this time. Although, yes, we have so much happening in the holidays like we were talking about last week, but this solstice for me is a really, really contemplative, quiet, inward experience in a lot of ways. And it really is, I mean, I just keep wanting to say going back to this going in, I really, Picture, like, going deep into a cave, down deep into the earth, slash, me, to really kind of understand and reflect and see what, what quiet seeds you have waiting, sleeping there, and, you know, what will become. It's not, things haven't woken up yet. It's what is going to be waking up. What have we been planting? What's there? And there's something much more vulnerable, much more visceral in the dark, away from the light. Mark: Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that's very well said. That whole, that kind of journeying piece about Going down into the dark which is so often a theme of, of guided meditations and solo journeying, inward work. It's a good time for doing that stuff. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: the, the body's circadian rhythms are really oriented towards sleep and it's it's a good time for dreaming. For, and I, I, when I think of, when I think about this in the, the context of the life cycle, and the context of a human life, it's a time for dreaming new stuff, Yucca: hmm. Mm Mark: uh, you know, dreaming new life, dreaming new ideas just starting to get those first glimmerings of what might And that's it. The what you plant next year and work to achieve. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: soon to get firm on those plans. It's all just Yucca: you can't be doing anything with the soil yet. It's, it's, whether there actually is snow or not, it's sleeping under that snow right now. Mark: right, right. Yeah, so it's, it's not a time. I mean, one of the things that I do appreciate about this holiday in the overculture, and there aren't very many things that I appreciate, but one of them is that for a week or so The world seems to hold its breath, at least for Christmas Eve and Christmas, those two days when commerce mostly finally stops, and people are at home with their families, and there's just, there's a silence in the world that I really appreciate, and that seems to persist to some degree through to New Year's. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: Most people are not going to work and I would imagine that Yucca: School's out for, Mark: School is out, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: all that sort of stuff. So, there's that, that withdrawal into the darkness that I really appreciate. The Connection to the Forests --- Yucca: Mm hmm. The other theme, uh, for me is the forests. So I see the, the Wheel of the Year, the different stations at it, or seasons, often celebrating different Types of ecosystems or components that are really connected to how we experience the world as humans and who we're connected with. And this half of the year is the forests. there's a, there's association with the, the forest there, particularly the the pine. Yeah whereas on the other side, we've got the grasslands, ? In the summer and the autumn, there's the grasslands, but now it's, it's the forests and the forest creatures and the and we'll get more into, you know, some of the, the bovines and ungulates and things later, but there's something very Very, for me, kind of ancient and primal about that, too, that kind of pulls back to, you know, different, some of my different roots in terms of my ancestry and that kind of connection with the forest. Mark: Sure. The Celebration of the Sun and Stars --- Yucca: And for a lot of people, it's also a celebration of the sun and of stars, ? And our sun as a star as well. Mark: Huh, yeah, yeah. I like that historically, the forest was a scary place to go into, for one reason, because it was dark, right? So, you know, you built your little island of civilization in your farmstead or whatever it was, but out beyond those fences, there was more uncertainty. And so going into the woods, you never knew what you were going to encounter, and there's more of that mystery, that going into the darkness. Yucca: But it's also necessary. Mark: Well, yes, Yucca: also where the, that's where you would go to hunt, ? That's where you'd go to gather your medicine. That's where you'd go for that. There's, you can't just stay out of it, ? You've got to go back in and be part of that whole system. Mark: which is very much like human psychology. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: You, there are layers and layers and layers of things. There are things that you may think you're over and you may not be over them. There are things that have been profound enough in your life that you may never be over them. You have to revisit them over and over again. You know, I have quite a number of things like that. So I really like, at this time of year, to kind of take a step back, reflect, imagine, do all that sort of soft path under the surface kind of work, Yucca: Mm Mark: um, it just seems like an appropriate time when it's so dark and it's cozy inside and feels relatively safe to contend with some of that stuff. Yucca: Yeah. The Coziness of the Season --- Yucca: I really like the coziness of just really getting into the coziness of this time of year. We, I use a diffuser with different oils in the house, and I don't buy into, like, the, you know, magical properties of, you know, this particular oil does this or that. I'm like, I like the smell of it. So I use it in the house, and I change those out throughout the season. And right now, you know, we're doing a lot of those very kind of Spicy, yummy cedars and cinnamons and all of that, just very cozy stuff this time of year with the big blankets and the cuddling with the kitty cat and all that, the warm drink and all that stuff. Mark: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I, I really like to lean into that stuff, too. It's I mean, I suppose it really should be thematic for the next and a half months, something like that, Yucca: Oh, we'll, we'll, Mark: time. Yucca: yep, we'll lean into that a lot. Yeah, and we'll, when we talk about the next holiday, we'll get into that more too. But, um, yeah. Mark: that, we'll talk about slog. Yucca: Slog, yes. So, and I think we said we were going to at some point come back to doing a darkness episode, probably sometime in January or something like that when we're really in the, um, kind of the thick of it. Mark: The deep cold, yeah. Yucca: yeah. Now there's some parts of the holiday too that you were talking about, like doing a tree or things like that. What's that like for you? Mark: Oh boy, I have so many observances at this time of year, so many traditions that I do, other than just redecorating my focus. We do do a tree, we have collected a set of ornaments over the years that are very thematic, a lot of, a lot of wildlife some antique. Glass ornaments from the 40s, 50s, and 60s that, you know, remind me of childhood. Some of the few happy memories that I have of childhood are evoked by the scent of that tree and by, you know, these old ornaments. And don't really buy presents for one another because we have too much stuff as it is. But what we do is put Cozy, appealing, charming things under the tree to sort of celebrate our abundance and so forth. We just got a bunch of internet, we went to, there's a store called Cost Plus here, I don't know if it exists elsewhere. Yucca: Yeah, we've got that here. Mark: it's a, it's an import store and so we got German cookies and English figgy pudding and a bunch of different things like that for the holiday and have those sitting under the tree right now. The Tradition of the Yule Log Ritual --- Mark: We do a Yule log ritual on the solstice night where we decorate, actually what I do is I take the lower half of the trunk of last year's Yule tree, which I sawed off and kept, and of course now it's dry. So what I do is I use some kind of natural fiber twine, like sisal or hemp or something like that, to tie that to a larger log, because, you know, Christmas tree trunks generally are Yucca: Not very thick, yeah. Mark: in diameter at max. And then we decorate that with holly and pyracantha berries and fresh boughs from the, from this year's Yule tree. And then, and we put candles on it. And then we tuck little notes into, under the twine and in amongst the branches and stuff that are wishes for the coming year. And when that's all done and we've done our Booga booga ritual stuff over it. We take it out and we burn it in our fire pit outside. And that's just, It's a cool thing to do. Yucca: hmm. Mark: My ritual circle does a ritual every year where we turn off all the lights in the house of my circle brother and sister. We go outside, you know, we get cold we have a little cauldron with some fire burning in it in the middle of us so we have a little bit of illumination. But we sing songs and really get ourselves into the whole mood and then each of us takes a taper. Lights it from the fire in the cauldron, and we go into the house again, and light every candle in the house, all throughout the Yucca: Oh, nice. Mark: bringing the light back. And that's a ritual that I really enjoy as well. Yucca: hmm. Mm Mark: How about celebrations at your house? Yucca: hmm. Well, we don't have a tree. They, we've got a, at their grandmother's, a Christmas tree. When we lived in the city, I did take I would take branches. Instead of taking the whole tree, I'd take branches and bring them into the house. And part of that was just I, just, I'm not a city person. It was hard for me to be in the city. So I just wanted any, like, I just craved that. The connection with the land that, and we weren't like smack in the middle of the city, we actually kind of on the, you know, a nicer part of town that did have a few trees and a yard and, you know, that sort of thing. But, um, so I would bring stuff in, but now, you know, we're, we're out. You know, out in the country and it doesn't, I don't miss it all in the same way because we're in, we're surrounded by it all the time, so I'm not, you know, feeling that thirst to bring stuff in as much but we do have, we do have some lights we have some like little solar LED Christmas lights that I think are meant to go out on your fence or something like that, but I just have the solar panel sitting in the window. And it does it well enough, and you know, it's a dark time of year, so it doesn't charge a lot, but it'll just go on as soon as the light sets in. Natural light fades and it runs for a few hours and we've gone to sleep at that point. So in terms of sort of the more traditional stuff, we do that. And again, for us, the Christmas and solstice are two different times. It's all related. And we've talked about how, you know, the, the history of, you know, why Christmas is on the day it is and the weird calendar switching stuff that happened and all of that. But when it's solstices and equinoxes, I like to set an alarm for the actual moment, ? Because that is an astronomical moment that happens, not just the day. And so this year, I think it's gonna be 827 p. m. our time. So I've got an alarm set so that when it does happen, the alarm can go off and we can go whoo and put our hands in the air. It's much better than when it happens at like 2 or 3 in the morning, because I do wake the kids up for that. We go whoo and then they go back to sleep. But this time I think it's nice that it's going to be during the day. night when we're still awake, but it's, it's been dark for a few hours at that point, so that'll be lovely. Mark: That sounds great. The Celebration of Solstice in Different Cultures --- Mark: A friend of mine is doing a party that he used to do before COVID. This is the first time since the arrival of COVID, which of course isn't over, but Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: we're doing parties again. So, he's doing a winter solstice vigil, which is an all night party that goes until dawn, and then you greet. Sun at the, they climb up to the top of the hill in San Francisco and greet the, greet the sun. I'm going to go, but I am not going to stay all night because the next morning I have to be in Yucca: isn't it? Solstice is a Wednesday night Mark: I thought it was Thursday. Yucca: I think it's the 21st this year for North America. It'll be the 22nd for Europe. But anyways, it's a Mark: Yeah, the 21st is the Thursday. Yucca: Oh, it is a Thursday? It's not Wednesday? Okay. I just had to Okay, great. Mark: That's good because I took Thursday and Friday off, and if it was on Wednesday , I would feel kind of silly. So. Yucca: Oh yeah, so it is the 21st. I said the day's wrong in my head. All right, so you'll have to, Mark: that next morning I have a part in a Unitarian Universalist solstice service, and so I'm not going to stay up all night, greet the sun, then jump in my car, drive 60 miles, and do that. That that sounds like dangerous to me. Yucca: I don't know about you, but I can't do the whole stay up all night thing. I have not been able to do that in years. People do it for New Years. I'm like, nope, not doing it. I'll Mark: but I don't choose to very often. Yucca: If I need to be up at midnight, I'll go to sleep at 6 and I'll wake myself up at 11 30, but I'm not gonna. Stay up till midnight or one, yeah. Mark: huh. Yucca: Getting Mark: you're a mom, so sleep is really at a premium, Yucca: I like my sleep, yeah. But even before I was a mom, I do not do the staying up. I am not a good person to be around when I'm not rested. Thinking about all that self reflection, we do this type of year. Yeah, I've learned that. Like, nope. Need my sleep. So, but I think for people who that works for, I think that's lovely. I certainly remember being younger and feeling that, like, that kind of altered state of having stayed up all night. Mark: Yeah. More emotionally vulnerable and yeah well, this is a separate topic, but the fire circle rituals that I've been to many of, they go from typically eleven at night until dawn. Yucca: mm hmm, Mark: And there's the same kind of feeling, and you do them three nights in a row, Yucca: mm Mark: and catch some sleep during the day, but of course you don't get a full eight hours, so you are really sleep deprived by the last night, and everybody's just really tender and open, and it's, it's beautiful to be around a ton of people who are like that, but what you don't want to do is operate heavy machinery after having that experience. It's not, not safe. Yucca: Right. Heavy machinery, including cars. Just a Mark: That's, that's what I was meaning Yucca: Oh, yeah. Mark: yeah, cars. And I am 60 miles from San Francisco, and I don't want to have to drive on, you know, being awake 24 hours, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: back up to Santa Rosa. So, yeah, so I'm going to go to the party for a while, and then I'm going to come back, uh, and it'll be great to see some friends down there, but it'll also be great to catch some solid Zs, uh, on the morning before I have to do this other thing. We're we're having a, we're recording this on the 16th? Is Yucca: Yeah, it's Saturday the Mark: Yeah, Saturday the 16th, and tomorrow the Northern California Atheopagan Affinity Group is getting together for a Yule celebration. Yucca: Oh, yay. Mark: Yeah I'm driving down there and we're having a fire pit and sharing delicious, you know, cozy making food. There's a good chance it may rain. So I'm bringing stuff from mulled wine and we can sit inside and listen to the rain and drink mulled wine and Yucca: Lovely. You know, Mark: So are there other things that you do at this time of year? The Evolution of Family Traditions --- Yucca: it's still kind of evolving just as the, my kiddos are getting to an age where they can be part of creating those traditions, we'll see what happens over the next few years, right? So. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: Yeah. I mean, and it's wonderful to let yourself kind of be led by their interests in this as well. Yucca: yeah, Mark: you'll develop traditions that are just your families and that's very cool. Yucca: right, yeah. And who knows, maybe, maybe that'll go, they'll, they'll remember that and do that with their families, or something different, or just it's one of the lovely things about what we were talking about in the beginning about it, just that spiraling back around to it. You know, each year there's something familiar but different, and over time that might change to something very different, but still have some of those same roots. Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's this sort of balancing act that happens in, in modern paganism, where on the one hand, it's very DIY, and you can create your own rituals, and those can all be unique. On the other hand, there's something to be said about tradition, about having these things that you do every year at a particular time of year. Just to acknowledge that it's that time of year and to create a particular feeling that you associate with that kind of, that time of year. I really enjoy both. There have been times, well, like, for example, my ritual circle, Dark Sun, does the same Hallows ritual every year. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: and I've talked about that before during those episodes. And there have been times when I've had, like, cool ideas for a hallows ritual, and I would have loved to do it with them, but nope, we're doing the traditional thing. So, I think there's both sides to that. The the to be creative and the desire to create tradition. Yucca: Yeah. Here we are. Conclusion and Farewell --- Mark: Here we are, once again, at the darkest time of year in the Northern Hemisphere, and the brightest in the Southern Hemisphere, so if you're enjoying summer, uh, have a wonderful time, you know, go swimming eat some ice cream, do all those things that one does in the summertime. For those of us in the Northern Hemisphere, we wish you a meaningful and joyous and warm and cozy solstice celebration and time of year. And we will be back next week. Yucca: Yep. See you next week. ----more----
Today we're focusing on the environmental challenges facing our world today with Rebecca Bratspies, founding director of the Center for Urban Environmental Reform.She's the author of an award-winning environmental justice comic book series, The Environmental Justice Chronicles. The three books, Mayah's Lot, Bina's Plant, and Troop's Run, are designed to bring environmental literacy to a new generation of environmental leaders.Justice Counts podcast host Mark Bello and I are delighted to welcome Rebecca Bratspies to the Lean to the Left and Justice Counts podcasts. Rebecca is an award-winning author, scholar, and speaker, and as I said, executive director of the Center for Urban Environmental Reform. That's a social justice Initiative of the City University of New York School of Law, where Bratspies is a professor of law.Her most recent book, Naming Gotham: The Villains, Rogues and Heroes Behind New York Place Names, uses the names New York gives its roads and bridges to tell bigger stories about racial and class politics, and to highlight who has the power to name things and who gets to define what counts as history.Rebecca Bratspies, thanks for joining us for our podcast today.Bob: Please tell us about the Center for Urban Environmental Reform. You're the founding director of the Center. Why was it established?Mark: What's its goal?Bob: As a law professor, why are you making environmental justice comic books? Tell us about them.Mark: How are you using the books to build a next generation of environmental leaders?Bob: A Montana court recently ruled that the state's constitution guarantees the right of all citizens to live in a clean, safe, and healthy environment. Efforts are underway to convince other states to enact such guarantees in their constitutions. What are your thoughts about this?Mark: How would you characterize the state of our climate today and the importance of moving our energy sources from fossil fuels like coal to renewable sources like wind and solar?Bob: Nearly 150 million Americans were under heat alerts just yesterday, after July marked the planet's hottest month on record. Devastating downpours dumped two months of rain on Vermont in two days. Smoke from Canadian wildfires choked East Coast skies, causing the worst air quality on record for some locations. And Hawaii is reeling from the deadliest U.S. wildfire in a century.Yet, a new Washington Post-University of Maryland poll, only 35 percent of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents think climate change is a major factor, compared to 85 percent of Democrats.What will it take to convince the doubters that the extreme weather patterns that we are now experiencing are caused, at least in large measure, by man and our reliance on fossil fuels?Mark: Why did you write a book about New York City history and what did it teach you about racial justice?Bob: What are some of your favorite stories from the book?Mark: How did writing Naming Gotham lead you to get involved with the Renewable Rikers project, which I understand is a restorative environmental justice plan to close the jail at Rikers and convert the island to renewable energy to remove the polluting infrastructure from overburdened communities?Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lean-to-the-left-podcast--4719048/support.
Today we're focusing on the environmental challenges facing our world today with Rebecca Bratspies, founding director of the Center for Urban Environmental Reform.She's the author of an award-winning environmental justice comic book series, The Environmental Justice Chronicles. The three books, Mayah's Lot, Bina's Plant, and Troop's Run, are designed to bring environmental literacy to a new generation of environmental leaders.Justice Counts podcast host Mark Bello and I are delighted to welcome Rebecca Bratspies to the Lean to the Left and Justice Counts podcasts. Rebecca is an award-winning author, scholar, and speaker, and as I said, executive director of the Center for Urban Environmental Reform. That's a social justice Initiative of the City University of New York School of Law, where Bratspies is a professor of law.Her most recent book, Naming Gotham: The Villains, Rogues and Heroes Behind New York Place Names, uses the names New York gives its roads and bridges to tell bigger stories about racial and class politics, and to highlight who has the power to name things and who gets to define what counts as history.Rebecca Bratspies, thanks for joining us for our podcast today.Bob: Please tell us about the Center for Urban Environmental Reform. You're the founding director of the Center. Why was it established?Mark: What's its goal?Bob: As a law professor, why are you making environmental justice comic books? Tell us about them.Mark: How are you using the books to build a next generation of environmental leaders?Bob: A Montana court recently ruled that the state's constitution guarantees the right of all citizens to live in a clean, safe, and healthy environment. Efforts are underway to convince other states to enact such guarantees in their constitutions. What are your thoughts about this?Mark: How would you characterize the state of our climate today and the importance of moving our energy sources from fossil fuels like coal to renewable sources like wind and solar?Bob: Nearly 150 million Americans were under heat alerts just yesterday, after July marked the planet's hottest month on record. Devastating downpours dumped two months of rain on Vermont in two days. Smoke from Canadian wildfires choked East Coast skies, causing the worst air quality on record for some locations. And Hawaii is reeling from the deadliest U.S. wildfire in a century.Yet, a new Washington Post-University of Maryland poll, only 35 percent of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents think climate change is a major factor, compared to 85 percent of Democrats.What will it take to convince the doubters that the extreme weather patterns that we are now experiencing are caused, at least in large measure, by man and our reliance on fossil fuels?Mark: Why did you write a book about New York City history and what did it teach you about racial justice?Bob: What are some of your favorite stories from the book?Mark: How did writing Naming Gotham lead you to get involved with the Renewable Rikers project, which I understand is a restorative environmental justice plan to close the jail at Rikers and convert the island to renewable energy to remove the polluting infrastructure from overburdened communities?This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/4719048/advertisement
Do you believe equity has finally come to the workplace; that women are now being treated equally with men in business today?This episode of the Lean to the Left podcast features Dr. Regina Lark, author of the new book, Emotional Labor: Why a Woman's Work Is Never Done and What to Do About It.In the interview, conducted by Lean to the Left host Bob Gatty and Mark M. Bello, host of the Justice Counts podcast, Dr. Lark traces developments over the years that were intended to close the male-female work equity gap, and explains why inequality still exists and what can be done about it. She also blasts efforts by Republicans to interfere with women's reproductive health, ban books, and attack the LGBTQ+ community. Their stacking of the U.S. Supreme Court with three conservative justices during the Trump administration while refusing to even consider President Obama's nomination of Merrick Garland was "despicable," she contends.In 2008, before founding her 7-figure company, Dr. Regina Lark excelled in a career in higher education. When budget cuts eliminated her position at UCLA at age 50, Regina started over and created A Clear Path from scratch. Today, Lark and her ninja organizers provide professional physical, emotional, and psychological support to people who wish to clear clutter and chaos from their lives.Dr. Lark holds a Ph. D. in Women's History from the University of Southern California. She helps women rid their lives of emotional labor by offering concrete ways to identify and mitigate the costs of women's unseen, unnoticed and unwaged work at home, and to unleash women into the full potential in the paid workplace.She delivers keynote addresses, retreats and corporate speaking engagements on women's leadership, emotional labor, time management, productivity, hoarding and ADHD.Dr. Lark also is the author of Psychic Debris, Crowded Closets: The Relationship Between the Stuff in Your Head, and What's Under Your Bed.Here some questions we discussed with Dr. Lark:Mark: Quite the resume. Bob and I are proud to have you on our show. This is 2023 and this is a show about justice and injustice. Historically, women have not been treated equally in the workplace. However, here we are, almost a quarter into the 21st Century. Women have finally achieved equality in the workplace, right?Bob: You've often used the term “household management.” What is it and why is it considered “women's work?” And, if you can, please give our audience some historical context.Mark: You also use the term “emotional labor,” especially in your Ted Talk. Please define the term in the context of the inherent inequities women still face in the workplace.Bob: How is emotional labor performed at home? What does it look like?Mark: The saying goes “a woman's work is never done.” Is that still true? And, if so, what can society do about it?Bob: What are some reasons for the unequal distribution of work in the home? Are men inherently better at certain things and women better at others?Mark: If you could wave a magic wand, how would you create equity in your own household and in society's unequal, unjust workplace?Bob: If couples and their children thought of their home as a business, would the structure and delegation of the work inside the home change? If so, how?Mark: A person out there is what society still calls a “stay at home Mom.” She's frustrated by the burdens of Emotional Labor. What can she do to stop the never-ending cycle?Bob: Why is delegating and outsourcing so integral to lifting the burden of emotional labor? Mark: How do we become better delegators?Mark: I believe that men have had since the beginning of time their chance to rule the world and they've screwed it up. It is high time for woman to ascend to the throne—I believe that will do a far better job. Is that possible sometime soon? Is there any hope for true equality or a world led by women?Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lean-to-the-left-podcast--4719048/support.
Do you believe equity has finally come to the workplace; that women are now being treated equally with men in business today?This episode of the Lean to the Left podcast features Dr. Regina Lark, author of the new book, Emotional Labor: Why a Woman's Work Is Never Done and What to Do About It.In the interview, conducted by Lean to the Left host Bob Gatty and Mark M. Bello, host of the Justice Counts podcast, Dr. Lark traces developments over the years that were intended to close the male-female work equity gap, and explains why inequality still exists and what can be done about it. She also blasts efforts by Republicans to interfere with women's reproductive health, ban books, and attack the LGBTQ+ community. Their stacking of the U.S. Supreme Court with three conservative justices during the Trump administration while refusing to even consider President Obama's nomination of Merrick Garland was "despicable," she contends.In 2008, before founding her 7-figure company, Dr. Regina Lark excelled in a career in higher education. When budget cuts eliminated her position at UCLA at age 50, Regina started over and created A Clear Path from scratch. Today, Lark and her ninja organizers provide professional physical, emotional, and psychological support to people who wish to clear clutter and chaos from their lives.Dr. Lark holds a Ph. D. in Women's History from the University of Southern California. She helps women rid their lives of emotional labor by offering concrete ways to identify and mitigate the costs of women's unseen, unnoticed and unwaged work at home, and to unleash women into the full potential in the paid workplace.She delivers keynote addresses, retreats and corporate speaking engagements on women's leadership, emotional labor, time management, productivity, hoarding and ADHD.Dr. Lark also is the author of Psychic Debris, Crowded Closets: The Relationship Between the Stuff in Your Head, and What's Under Your Bed.Here some questions we discussed with Dr. Lark:Mark: Quite the resume. Bob and I are proud to have you on our show. This is 2023 and this is a show about justice and injustice. Historically, women have not been treated equally in the workplace. However, here we are, almost a quarter into the 21st Century. Women have finally achieved equality in the workplace, right?Bob: You've often used the term “household management.” What is it and why is it considered “women's work?” And, if you can, please give our audience some historical context.Mark: You also use the term “emotional labor,” especially in your Ted Talk. Please define the term in the context of the inherent inequities women still face in the workplace.Bob: How is emotional labor performed at home? What does it look like?Mark: The saying goes “a woman's work is never done.” Is that still true? And, if so, what can society do about it?Bob: What are some reasons for the unequal distribution of work in the home? Are men inherently better at certain things and women better at others?Mark: If you could wave a magic wand, how would you create equity in your own household and in society's unequal, unjust workplace?Bob: If couples and their children thought of their home as a business, would the structure and delegation of the work inside the home change? If so, how?Mark: A person out there is what society still calls a “stay at home Mom.” She's frustrated by the burdens of Emotional Labor. What can she do to stop the never-ending cycle?Bob: Why is delegating and outsourcing so integral to lifting the burden of emotional labor? Mark: How do we become better delegators?Mark: I believe that men have had since the beginning of time their chance to rule the world and they've screwed it up. It is high time for woman to ascend to the throne—I believe that will do a far better job. Is that possible sometime soon? Is there any hope for true equality or a world led by women?This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/4719048/advertisement
Erik Hatch, a successful real estate entrepreneur and philanthropist, shares his journey of making a difference in the world. From his experiences raising funds and awareness to fight human trafficking, to his commitment to servant leadership in his business and personal life, Erik offers valuable insights on creating a life of purpose and impact. He emphasizes the importance of finding the right people, setting clear standards and goals, and maintaining a mindset of possibility and empathy. Listeners will be inspired to take action and contribute to making positive change in the world. Topics Covered: 00:00:00 Journey Through Trials: Erik Hatch's Personal Story of Resilience and Triumph 00:05:40 Caring for the Community: Erik's Initiative to Support the Homeless 00:07:19 Act of Kindness: Erik's Charitable Contribution to Orphaned Children 00:09:52 The Power of Business: How Erik's Real Estate Venture Funds Global Child Rescue Efforts 00:13:36 Active Involvement: Erik's Crusade Against Human Trafficking 00:16:16 Unveiling the Unseen: A Personal Take on Child Kidnapping 00:18:37 Highlighting the Unspoken: Raising Awareness about Human Trafficking 00:21:47 Making a Mark: How to Impactfully Participate in the Social Arena 00:26:11 From Struggles to Success: A Business Owner's Generosity-Driven Vision 00:28:49 Smart Investing: Tactical Strategies for Income and Generosity 00:30:19 New Beginnings: Building a Successful Team from Scratch 00:33:25 The Power of Goals: Personal Accountability in Motivation and Success 00:34:40 Laying the Foundations: Setting Personal Standards for Success 00:40:12 Striking a Balance: Prioritizing Family While Managing Work 00:43:28 A Call for Kindness: The Essential Role of Empathy in Today's World 00:47:38 Embracing Humanity: The Value in Recognizing Our Imperfections 00:48:49 Stay Connected: Keep Learning and Stay in Touch with Erik Hatch Connect with Erik: Website LinkedIn Erik's IG & Book Giveaway Premier 1-on-1 Coaching Connect with The Better Than Rich: BTR Mini-Course Website Facebook Instagram Twitter TikTok --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/betterthanrichshow/message
Patrick answers listener questions about difficult penances, is it a mortal sin to shop somewhere that also sells the abortion pill, and what's a great book to for kids who are un-catechized? Patrick plays the Taco Tuesday song for a loyal listener Wendy – Is it okay to listen to music with questionable (sinful) lyrics? Mark - How do I respond if the penance the priest gives in confession is too difficult? Sana - Can you recommend a good book that isn't directly Catholic but is pro-American and not so 'in your face' for a book club? Rose – I'm concerned about going to confession lately. Sometimes I am not given much of a penance. What do I do? Donna - I have two granddaughters who are un-catechized. I would like to send them a book that would introduce them to the Catholic Faith. I want to give them a book that they would actually read. Patrick recommends “The Baltimore Catechism St. Joseph Edition” It's been 5 years to the day that Greta Thunberg said humanity would be wiped out if we don't stop using fossil fuels Michelle - I read that CVS sells the abortion pill. Would it be a mortal sin to still get my prescriptions filled there. Patty - It's funny that these companies support abortion. They are undermining themselves by eliminating customers.
Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E20 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the Wonders Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, mark, and I'm Yucca. And today we're talking about the summer solstice, the longest point in the year in the Northern Hemisphere. The longest day, the shortest night, and we're gonna talk about what that is, what we call it, what some of the metaphorical themes are that go along with it, and some ideas for rituals to do for the, for the summer solstice. Yucca: Right. And it's another one of those that has a lot of names but at least being one of the solstice, we have a name that. That is pretty common that we could refer to it by, and most people know what we're talking about, right? Yeah. Mark: Yeah. For many, many years, this was referred to in the English speaking world as mid-summer. Mm-hmm. So that's where you get a mid-summer night's dream, all that kind of stuff. And that's what I prefer to call it because I don't like using the, the foreign language names since I've not. Yucca: They aren't your languages. Mark: Yeah. And I'm not drawing cultural elements from those cultures, so why should I take their name? Yucca: Right? Mm-hmm. Right. So you'd like to call it mid-summer. Are there any, is that any other names? Southern Mark: Hemisphere, in which case I would call it Yucca: mid-winter, right? Yes. For us it's usually summer solstice sometimes refer to hafmas. Haf is summer in Welsh, and it's actually a name we made up because the moss is like the, like from the other side of the year, and it's the flip of that. And so it just kind of sounded nice to us. We're like, oh yes, it's the summer, it's the summer muss, right? Mm-hmm. So we call it that or it's our. First summer, it's not midsummer for our climate. Mm-hmm. You know, that some climates It is. I mean, summer has started, I know in the, on the mirror, the calendar here in the United States, it's the official start of summer. That's right. Yeah. But. Climate, I mean, weather-wise, summer is here already for us. Mm-hmm. It's just not the middle of summer. The middle of summer won't be until August. Mark: Right. And, and that's true for us too. I wrote a blog post at atheopagan dot org recently about the fog cycle. Because here in, in the coastal zone in Northern California, what happens is it gets blazing hot inland, like in the Sacramento Valley. Mm-hmm. And the air rises and therefore creates a low pressure zone. Mm-hmm. Because it's expanded. And so it pulls cool moisture laden air in from over the ocean, which precipitates out into fog along the coastal area. Mm. So we get this fog cycle and it's why San Francisco is famous for fog. We get this fog cycle in the summertime and when the fog cycle starts. It's really kind of the climatic beginning of summer, and that's been going on now for about three weeks. Mm. Okay. And what'll happen is we'll have these gray days never rains, just gray, overcast, and then eventually, It cools down enough that that thermal cycle doesn't work anymore. Mm-hmm. And we'll get a few days of bright sparkling sun, usually some blazing heat at the end of that, and then it starts the cycle Yucca: again. Okay. So nice. Mark: That's, that's how we know that summer has started here. Mm. Yucca: I like that. Well, for us, we have them monsoons. So in the desert southwest, much of the desert, Southwest has the monsoons, and we've been getting them this year, which is wonderful because we've had quite a few years of, of just not getting, just being in terrible, terrible drought. Mm-hmm. And it's. When I was a kid, the monsoons started earlier, right? They started back in May and they went all the way through September. But now they really are the end of June, July, August is when they'll come and it's we'll get the afternoon rain heavy, rain intense, and then it's gone. But when the rain is coming in, there is. There's the smell of the rain. Yeah, and it's the soil. I think that what's happening is there's soil microbes that are, that are releasing the smell. There's all sorts of things, but it's just, there's nothing like the smell of the rain. And I've, I've been in different areas, different deserts have their own. Smell, but there's something similar between them, right? If you're in the Chihuahua or the Mojave, like they have their own and it's just the most wonderful thing. There's just nothing like it. And right after the rain, there's so much life that just wakes up. We have mosses that go dormant and then it rains and they wake up and they're, this fairy green just pops of fairy green everywhere. And then a few hours later they're back to the brown. And it just, everything wakes up in a way that that is just very different than the rest of the year. So it's just wonderful. And the insects. And one of the really fun things that we love is that after a rain, a day or so after that is when the winged ants will come out. Oh, so they send out that generation because they need the soft ground to be able to start the next colony, and it's too hard to to dig any other time. So that's when you'll see just these, the conventions, these parties of the wing dance. And you know, some of the termites do that as well. And it's just, Alive with insects and creatures, and it's just a very magical time of year. Mark: And there's all then the dramatic lightning storms that come with the rain too. Yucca: That's right. Yeah. And the clouds, the, the incredible, the thunderheads. Yeah. What is it, CU Cumul. Nimbus, is that what it is? Those ones that just go literally miles into the sky and it's amazing. Yeah, no, Mark: and what I have enjoyed when I've been in the desert Southwest at this time of year is that typically, The rains will break right before sunset. Yes. So you get these spectacular sunsets, just unbelievable kind of blazing through the remnants of the clouds. Mm-hmm. Really Yucca: extraordinary. Yeah. And most the sunsets all year round are beautiful, but as we go deeper into summer, the late summer, early fall is when those sunsets are. I don't know why. I don't know quite what's happening. That's different, but they're the ones where the whole sky is just red and golden and mm-hmm. It's just, and they seem to, to last a little longer. It's, it's quite amazing. Hmm. So enchantment. Yep. So that's what's happening for us. This is a great time of year. Yeah. And it's not too hot yet. Uhhuh, it'll get a, we don't actually get that hot. Really. We're, we're fine in terms of heat, but you know, we're, we'll be in hanging out in the eighties, so Uhhuh. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, most of the warm days that we get are low nineties, but, You know, some, sometimes when the fog cycle really breaks hard, we'll have days that are, well, we had a, a day that last Yucca: year, you had crazy Mark: 15 last year. That was for about a week we had temperatures that were up mm-hmm. Over 110 every day. And that was, that was amazing. Yeah. So, mid-summer. Yeah. And and the summer solstice. What are the kinds of things that we think of thematically that go along with this time of year? I mean, we've, we've talked about what's happening in nature. Mm-hmm. We still, by the way, our birds still have their mating plumage, which is interesting. It seems a little late to me, but they do, I'm seeing that at our Yucca: feeders. Ours too, as well. Although ours are always, we're a little later. Than you because you warm up so much sooner than we do. Right. So there's still and I, I feed mine meal worms and I see that they're still gobbling up the meal worms as we get later into the summer. They'll kind of leave that alone. But I put out like a little bowl for them to, to and so I assume that they're always doing that when they've got the eggs or the real young mm-hmm. The young birds in the nest. So that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Our hummingbirds are mostly gone though. Ah, there's a few that will hang out in the summer, but they mostly were just a stop for them on their larger journey. Mark: See, we have a number of birds that are actually migratory birds, but they don't migrate where we are because it's so benign. They just like Yucca: it. They're like, they just Mark: hang, you know, we have, we have hummingbirds in the middle of the winter, and they're just like, well, if we went anywhere else, it'd be worse than here. Yucca: So they just hang out. Okay. That's great. Why? I mean, yeah. Speaking of the birds The kiddos and I took a trip just last week down to Carlsbad Caverns, and we woke, we woke up really early in the morning to go watch the bats return. So, the. The park is actually open all night. So we got there at like three 30 or four in the morning instead of watching them leave. And so the bats were all coming home. But then there are cave swallows that found the caverns just a few decades ago. Apparently they weren't there before, so now they've made it their home. And so you switch, the bats go in, and then the swallows come out. Oh. And so they're also migratory, so they'll go down south, farther south. Because I mean, from my perspective, Carlsbad is already pretty south, but I'm talking about, you know, down into South America for that. And then they'll come back up from like, April to October. And they're just incredible creatures as they're swooping around. And when they fly next to, it's like, sounds like a, like the sky, like a crackle as they like zip past you. So that was really fun to get to see them in the like hundreds. So hundreds of bats replaced with hundreds of these swallow. Mark: Wow. That's cool. Yucca: Yeah. So just a plug for everyone. If you have not been to the caverns, it's, it's unbelievable. They're really unbelievable. You can hike down but they also have an elevator so you can get down. So if you are in a wheelchair or have any mobility challenges, like that's really, really accessible. So it's a great experience. Yeah. Now in term we, we were back on, we were on themes though, right? So you often see this wheel of the year as the life cycle of a human right? Mark: I do. And this time would be full adulthood, like mm-hmm. In your thirties you know, maybe into your mid forties, kind of at the height of your powers. And. That doesn't entirely square with my understanding of this holiday actually. Mm-hmm. Thematically, because to me this is the holiday of leisure. Mm-hmm. In the agricultural cycle. That's kind of what it is. At least it was in, in European Times and it, and it is where I am locally, all plant. He did Yucca: all the planting, but it's not time to harvest's been done. Mark: Stuff is growing. Not time to harvest yet. So really what you do is lie in a hammock and drink beer or mojitos and just kind of relax. So it's a time for going to the beach and other sort of leisure kinds of activities. And that's what I most associate with this holiday actually is. Not formal rituals so much as just getting outside and having recreational activities that, that are enjoyable and relaxing. Yucca: Mm. Okay. That's wonderful. Mark: How about you? What are, what are the things that you associate with the time of year? Yucca: Yeah, this is the bugs time of year for us. This is the arthropods are insects and Mya pods and and this is really the, the time of year in our climate where they really are at their. Peak in their height and there's just, oh the wild bees are out and the all kinds of creatures are around. We have, these ones will get a little bit more active later on in the year, but I adore them. We have Carolina Wolf spiders here. Oh. And which are. Wolf spiders, but they are, you know, several inches across. They're, they're big, they're like the sizes of a small little tarantula. And we like to go out on night hikes, and which you have to, of course be. Careful to not step on any animals, but the, the spiders are very shy creatures, right? They don't want to come up and mess with you, but when you shine your light around their eyes, glisten like little, it's a Micah, and they look back at you and so there's just a, a celebration of them and how important they are for our world, they are just so critical. And it's also a time that we do do gifts as well. So we do gifts on both solstice and we're about, when we're recording this, we're about a, you know, a little bit more than a week out. Mm-hmm. So we haven't put it up yet, but we have a bee garland that we do in our house where we've made. Giant bees out of like a cardboard and some of them have clay and we put it around and decorate the house for the summer. And of course lots of sun motifs as well because there's just so much sun right now. And we put that around the house and, you know, hang little, little trinkets and little gifts. And so the kids will probably get some books and, and things that are often insect related or. Cousin insect, you know, cuz spiders and centipedes and those things aren't insects, but they're close cousins. Right. So. Right. Yeah. Mark: Well that sounds really fun and wonderfully seasonal. Yeah. The, the sun symbols are obviously a big part of, you know, what I do with my focus, for example, and my altar has lots of sun symbols on it generally, but it gets a lot more sun symbols on it at this time of year. Yeah. It's really, you know, the rain of the, the sun triumphant at this time of year. This, one of my, one of my least favorite summer solstice traditions is that right around this time of year is when I sunburned my scalp and then realized that it's half season. I need to, I need to not do this. Mm-hmm. You know, it's not February anymore. The sun is not weak. The sun is as about as overhead as it's gonna get, and it's strong. And I need to protect myself from Yes. So that's another thing that happens every year. Mm. Yucca: I enjoy hats. I have some great huge, broad roomed hats. My, my climate is a hat all the time. Climate. Hmm. Because even in the winter it's very, very, very high elevation. But it's cold enough that you need to have a knit hat in the cold half of the year. And then it's just so, there's just so much sun that you've just gotta have something to. Or else you can't see to protect your, your face and neck and, and all of that. Yeah. It's Mark: not elevation. There's so much uv. You really gotta be careful. Yucca: Yeah. Well, you know, when you go to the weather page and it'll tell you the, what's the pollen count and the wind, you know, our UV index is almost always 10 all the time. You just don't even look at it. It's 10. Well, So yeah, you can't leave a, the, you know, a tarp won't last a season out there, Uhhuh, the UV just eats it and it turns into those terrible million little pieces of plastic everywhere, so. Well, are there any rituals that you do either for yourself or with your community around this time of year? Mark: Well, as I said, most of what I want to do with my community at this time of year is to really just kind of hang and. Enjoy one another's company. But there is one ritual that I do every year, which involves my son broom. Mm-hmm. And longtime listeners will have heard me talk about this before. I have a handle, which is a piece of Oak Branch that I gathered in a state park. And on that I have bound long grasses to make a shaggy sort of broom. And I add grasses to it every year. In, in some years, I actually fully replace the grasses. Mm-hmm. I can find enough long grass to cut wherever I am and use that to, to replace the, the, the bristles. And I bind that all up and then I sit it out in the mid-summer sun all day on the day of the solstice. Mm-hmm. And the idea of that is that it's soaking up the, you know, the power of the sun. Mm-hmm. And so long about February, I can wave that thing around the house when it's really dismal and sort of remind myself of the feeling of the sun and the, the energy and the, the warmth and light and all those things that I'm missing in Yucca: February. That's great. Mark: Yeah. It's, it's a nice ritual tool to have. You know, there have been times when, like, I've been working with people that have been really feeling down you know, having a really hard time in their life right then and kind of waving a lot of sun around them, it seems to make them feel better. Nice, Yucca: nice. Yeah. And are the grasses still green for you? No. You have, okay, so you're, you're harvesting. Dry grass then. Yeah, it's Mark: generally wild oats. Mm-hmm. They grow very tall and so, you know, you can cut 'em off and make a nice long broom. This, this marks. Really mayday kind of marks the demarcation between the gold time of the year and the green time of the year. Mm-hmm. That's what I was remembering. Yeah. Yeah. Things are, are starting to gold up and we've had a few little sprinklings of rain, so there's some remnants of green. Unusually so this year especially because we had this giant rain year, right. Last winter. But by and large, the hills have gone golden by this time. Mm-hmm. And so that's the golden time Yucca: of the year. Yeah. I, I really just en enjoy how flipped our climates are because this is one of the only times of year that the grass is green. It's gold most of the year, but right now we've got this pop of green and it's just so, it's just beautiful how. Places are so different, right? We're, yeah, we're experiencing, I mean, we're sharing some experiences together because we're going, you know, what's happening astronomically? You know, that's, we're all experiencing that, but what spring is for you and what spring is for me, we're just in these very different worlds, and yet coming together and sharing in an online space and then going back to our. You know, might as well be different planets sometimes. Mark: Yeah. Well, and of course, I mean, we, I, I just had our Saturday Zoom mixer that we do every Saturday mm-hmm. This morning. And a woman from Argentina was there. Mm-hmm. And of course she's in an entirely different world. Right. You know, it's like it's cold and it's wet and it's dark and you know, all those. Yeah. All those things that we associate with December up here are what's happening for her right now, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yucca: And that as a country has so many different environments. Yeah. Mark: Well, yeah, cuz it's so north south and it's got the Andes, which are so high Yucca: and Right. It's that it's stretched down. It goes, you know, and then you can be in that low, low desert or that high or the, you know, it's, I'm looking at, on the map right now. Yeah. Or Mark: Patagonia, which is this arctic kind of environment. Yeah. It's, mm-hmm. It's everything. I'd love to go Yucca: where there are still folks who speak Welsh. Really? Yes, there is a Welsh community there. And so you can, you'll find people with last names of like Evans and, and things like that. Yeah. So it's, they're the, like the Welsh like cowboys in Patagonia. It's, it's, it's a, it's, it's a great country. It's an amazing, we live in just a wonderful world, just so many different places and, and little gems and, yeah. Mark: Yeah. So, yep. Well, that's kind of part of what we're all about, isn't it? We live in a wonderful world. Me too. It's It's just really cool when you pay attention to it. Yucca: Yeah. I like having the holidays as these touchstones throughout the year. Mm-hmm. Right. Just to kind of come back and think about, you know, what was last year around Solstice and the year before and, and how it's so similar and yet so different this time around. Mm-hmm. Mark: Well, I think I conjecture that that's why the The, the symbol of the spiral was very attractive to prehistoric people. You know, the, the creators of the megalithic passage, burials and all that kind of stuff, because time really is like a spring, you know, you come around to the same point again, but you're, you're removed from it by a year. Mm-hmm. So it just kind of iterates around and around and around. Yeah. Always in a different place and yet in the same place at the same time. Hmm. So what was I gonna do? I know what I was gonna do. I was gonna close with a poem for the season. Ooh, let me Yucca: grab Sure. Mark: This is called Dawn Prayer, whose warm love flows across the land each day stirring life, the world's magic arms yearning up, turning each green leaf to follow whose generous balm upon the skin is love's touch. Ah, heated fingers, soothing. Whose Roar boils water from ocean to sky, drawing sweet from salt, becoming rain, snow river lake whose fervor beat upon us is deadly and yet contemplating cold stars. How we miss it? The golden one. Quotidian center of our days Steady companion soer of treasures. Great and small light bringer life. Quickener, dazzling unbearably bright. Hail. Oh, hail the magnificent sun. Yucca: Thank you. Mark: Hmm. My pleasure. I'm awfully fond of that star. I I would be really bereft without it. Yucca: Yes. Do you? And all of us. Yeah. So, well, this was a great talk and thank you. Mark: Sure. Yeah. Everyone have a wonderful mid-summer and or winter or mid-winter. Mm-hmm. And if you come up with cool ideas for rituals for this time of year, shoot us an email at the wonder podcast cues gmail.com. Let us know what you're doing. We're always interested to hear from our listeners. So thanks so much for listening.
For a fascinating, inside look at the criminal justice system and the work of one of America's most prominent trial attorneys, check out this interview with ames J. Brosnahan, a veteran of more than 50 years of experience in both civil and criminal trial work.During his notable career, Brosnahan regularly undertook complex cases that were about to go to trial. He has tried, to conclusion, 150 cases that have ranged from anti-trust to wire fraud and from patent litigation to white collar crime and murder. Some of those cases made national headlines, including those that helped provide important First Amendment free speech protections.Brosnahan is named among the top 30 trial lawyers in the United States, according to the Legal 500 US. A lion of the trial bar, Brosnahan is one of the most respected and recognized trial lawyers in the United States. Recently, he completed a book on notable trials from his career, "Justice at Trial: Courtroom Battles and Groundbreaking Cases," now available at Amazon and other booksellers.The interview was conducted by Bob Gatty, host of Lean to the Left and co-host of the Justice Counts podcast, and Justice Counts host, legal thriller author Mark M. Bello. The episode also will stream on Justice Counts June 5.Here are some questions we discussed with Brosnahan:MARK: Welcome Jim—it's an honor to have you on the podcast. Before we talk about your writing, I'd like to talk about Professor Chemerinsky's forward. High praise for your memoir from the famous law professor. There is a lot packed into those two pages, but I was struck by two comments he makes. I'd like your reaction to them: 1. Practicing law requires hard work and attention to detail-many lawyers work hard. But it also requires creativity-Chemerinsky considers you and your team very “clever,” the term he uses. How much of your success is related to hard work and how much to creativity? For young lawyers out there, after learning what they need to know to pass the bar, how do they develop these creative skills the professor talks about? 2. Professor Chemerinsky talks about a topic near and dear to my heart. At that is, essentially, the bad rap lawyers get. He points to you as an example of how an ethical lawyer and decent guy, (you) can also be highly successful. That being a successful lawyer requires “bad behavior” which is patently false. We can chew gum and walk—can you please talk about being successful and ethical at the same time? BOB: The book reveals that you were diagnosed with rheumatic fever and a possible heart problem at age 3, confined to bed until you were six. Your connection to the outside world was a radio with Jack Benny and a window that looked out onto a driveway where you could see kids playing. Do you remember those days, and do you think they played a role in shaping the adult you became? MARK: Like Chemerinsky, my favorite legal quote is “Justice, Justice, Shalt Thou Pursue.” Having read your book, alongside might be: “Sometimes, doing your best is your only reward.” I love that lesson for young lawyers.BOB: Tell our listeners about the Secody Murder Trial-you had only been a lawyer for 18 months and you have this major murder trial involving the native American community. Tough case for a young guy. MARK: As a side note, I was struck by your voir dire in that case and want to hear more. How does a trial lawyer get a potential juror to admit bias on voir dire?BOB: In the book, you indicate that you were influenced by Cecil Poole, Melvin Beli, and other prominent trial lawyers. You worked under Poole, who was the first African American US Attorney in the United States. Obviously, mentoring was important in your career. Is it still? BOB: In 1966, you switch sides after how long as a prosecutor? Tell us about the transition from prosecutor to criminal defense and civil plaintiff attorney?MARK: One of those cases involved representing two young black activists in the Oakland California poverty movement. Tell us about the case. What were they accused of? Why were they prosecuted? And what was the outcome?BOB: I'm an old newspaper guy. In 1968, at the age of 34, you handled a 1st Amendment case that literally would decide the fate of daily papers in America. Or, was it really an anti-trust case? There was a similar issue in Detroit when the News and the Free Press entered into a joint operating agreement. Tell us about your case and the outcome.MARK: In 1978, you take another 1st Amendment case, this one centering around the movie Born Innocent, starring Linda Blair of “The Exorcist” fame. Interesting issue in that case. The plaintiff attorney argued “People who see movies are inspired to act out what they see,” and argued for censorship. Lots of publicity in this one. Tell the story of an attempt to prove what you refer to in the book as “negligent imitation.” BOB: You were a prosecutor—prosecutors have a lot of power in making decision about whether to prosecute or not prosecute, what you call in the book “The Power to Ruin Lives.” How did you deal with the power and what do you recommend to young prosecutors just starting out?MARK: I've often said that if the government really wants to go after and get someone, they can and will. One of the most interesting cases in the book for me was Steve Psinakis case. Ronald Reagan is often cited as an example of a so-called “good” Republican president. While he may have been an effective president, he was far from a good guy. My favorite quote in the chapter? “President Reagan wanted a conviction of a US citizen as a favor to a corrupt, foreign dictator.” The year is 1986, I believe. Tell our listeners the story, please?MARK: Lots of great quotes in the book. I can't seem to get away from them. “Specialization, so prevalent today, can limit a lawyer unnecessarily.” But isn't that advice in conflict with “Jack of all trades, master of none?” What do you tell a young lawyer today about specialization?BOB: Another quote from the book: “Preparation for trial requires a complete immersion into other people's lives while at the same time trying to preserve an objective view of the case.” How does a trial lawyer do that?MARK: Another quote I like in the book is “Trial lawyers are essential to enrich democratic reforms and social progress.” Why do you believe that? Many people would say “get over yourself.” What do you say?BOB: Last quote: You say: “I have always thought of the United States Supreme Court as the legal conscience of our society.” Do you still feel that way with today's court?MARK: At the request of Lawrence Walsh, the special prosecutor investigating the Iran-Contra Affair, you agreed to handle the prosecution of Caspar Weinberger, the US Secretary of Defense under Reagan and Bush one. Before you could try the case, President Bush pardoned Weinberger, an event with caused you “post-pardon depression.” So, how did you really feel?BOB: Were you able to strike a healthy work-life balance? What did that look like? What would you recommend to young lawyers today? MARK: How would you compare civility among lawyers today compared to during your early years of practice?BOB: If you could travel back in time and give your 25-year-old self some advice about career and life, what would it be? Any regrets?MARK: Let's talk about judges. The judge is against you. The rulings aren't going your way, and you are feeling a hostile vibe from the bench. What do you do?MARK: The USA PATRIOT Act, mass surveillance of Americans by the federal government, and the transformation of the FBI into an counterterrorism, counterintelligence, and cybersecurity agency are all things that happened in the last 21 years or so. As a lawyer and an American who cares about civil liberties, do you think these changes have brought some harm as well as enhanced security?BOB: We hope your memoir will be a bestseller. Where can people find it and what's next on the horizon for James Brosnahan?Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lean-to-the-left-podcast--4719048/support.
For a fascinating, inside look at the criminal justice system and the work of one of America's most prominent trial attorneys, check out this interview with ames J. Brosnahan, a veteran of more than 50 years of experience in both civil and criminal trial work.During his notable career, Brosnahan regularly undertook complex cases that were about to go to trial. He has tried, to conclusion, 150 cases that have ranged from anti-trust to wire fraud and from patent litigation to white collar crime and murder. Some of those cases made national headlines, including those that helped provide important First Amendment free speech protections.Brosnahan is named among the top 30 trial lawyers in the United States, according to the Legal 500 US. A lion of the trial bar, Brosnahan is one of the most respected and recognized trial lawyers in the United States. Recently, he completed a book on notable trials from his career, "Justice at Trial: Courtroom Battles and Groundbreaking Cases," now available at Amazon and other booksellers.The interview was conducted by Bob Gatty, host of Lean to the Left and co-host of the Justice Counts podcast, and Justice Counts host, legal thriller author Mark M. Bello. The episode also will stream on Justice Counts June 5.Here are some questions we discussed with Brosnahan:MARK: Welcome Jim—it's an honor to have you on the podcast. Before we talk about your writing, I'd like to talk about Professor Chemerinsky's forward. High praise for your memoir from the famous law professor. There is a lot packed into those two pages, but I was struck by two comments he makes. I'd like your reaction to them: 1. Practicing law requires hard work and attention to detail-many lawyers work hard. But it also requires creativity-Chemerinsky considers you and your team very “clever,” the term he uses. How much of your success is related to hard work and how much to creativity? For young lawyers out there, after learning what they need to know to pass the bar, how do they develop these creative skills the professor talks about? 2. Professor Chemerinsky talks about a topic near and dear to my heart. At that is, essentially, the bad rap lawyers get. He points to you as an example of how an ethical lawyer and decent guy, (you) can also be highly successful. That being a successful lawyer requires “bad behavior” which is patently false. We can chew gum and walk—can you please talk about being successful and ethical at the same time? BOB: The book reveals that you were diagnosed with rheumatic fever and a possible heart problem at age 3, confined to bed until you were six. Your connection to the outside world was a radio with Jack Benny and a window that looked out onto a driveway where you could see kids playing. Do you remember those days, and do you think they played a role in shaping the adult you became? MARK: Like Chemerinsky, my favorite legal quote is “Justice, Justice, Shalt Thou Pursue.” Having read your book, alongside might be: “Sometimes, doing your best is your only reward.” I love that lesson for young lawyers.BOB: Tell our listeners about the Secody Murder Trial-you had only been a lawyer for 18 months and you have this major murder trial involving the native American community. Tough case for a young guy. MARK: As a side note, I was struck by your voir dire in that case and want to hear more. How does a trial lawyer get a potential juror to admit bias on voir dire?BOB: In the book, you indicate that you were influenced by Cecil Poole, Melvin Beli, and other prominent trial lawyers. You worked under Poole, who was the first African American US Attorney in the United States. Obviously, mentoring was important in your career. Is it still? BOB: In 1966, you switch sides after how long as a prosecutor? Tell us about the transition from prosecutor to criminal defense and civil plaintiff attorney?MARK: One of those cases involved representing two young black activists in the Oakland California poverty movement. Tell us about the case. What were they accused of? Why were they prosecuted? And what was the outcome?BOB: I'm an old newspaper guy. In 1968, at the age of 34, you handled a 1st Amendment case that literally would decide the fate of daily papers in America. Or, was it really an anti-trust case? There was a similar issue in Detroit when the News and the Free Press entered into a joint operating agreement. Tell us about your case and the outcome.MARK: In 1978, you take another 1st Amendment case, this one centering around the movie Born Innocent, starring Linda Blair of “The Exorcist” fame. Interesting issue in that case. The plaintiff attorney argued “People who see movies are inspired to act out what they see,” and argued for censorship. Lots of publicity in this one. Tell the story of an attempt to prove what you refer to in the book as “negligent imitation.” BOB: You were a prosecutor—prosecutors have a lot of power in making decision about whether to prosecute or not prosecute, what you call in the book “The Power to Ruin Lives.” How did you deal with the power and what do you recommend to young prosecutors just starting out?MARK: I've often said that if the government really wants to go after and get someone, they can and will. One of the most interesting cases in the book for me was Steve Psinakis case. Ronald Reagan is often cited as an example of a so-called “good” Republican president. While he may have been an effective president, he was far from a good guy. My favorite quote in the chapter? “President Reagan wanted a conviction of a US citizen as a favor to a corrupt, foreign dictator.” The year is 1986, I believe. Tell our listeners the story, please?MARK: Lots of great quotes in the book. I can't seem to get away from them. “Specialization, so prevalent today, can limit a lawyer unnecessarily.” But isn't that advice in conflict with “Jack of all trades, master of none?” What do you tell a young lawyer today about specialization?BOB: Another quote from the book: “Preparation for trial requires a complete immersion into other people's lives while at the same time trying to preserve an objective view of the case.” How does a trial lawyer do that?MARK: Another quote I like in the book is “Trial lawyers are essential to enrich democratic reforms and social progress.” Why do you believe that? Many people would say “get over yourself.” What do you say?BOB: Last quote: You say: “I have always thought of the United States Supreme Court as the legal conscience of our society.” Do you still feel that way with today's court?MARK: At the request of Lawrence Walsh, the special prosecutor investigating the Iran-Contra Affair, you agreed to handle the prosecution of Caspar Weinberger, the US Secretary of Defense under Reagan and Bush one. Before you could try the case, President Bush pardoned Weinberger, an event with caused you “post-pardon depression.” So, how did you really feel?BOB: Were you able to strike a healthy work-life balance? What did that look like? What would you recommend to young lawyers today? MARK: How would you compare civility among lawyers today compared to during your early years of practice?BOB: If you could travel back in time and give your 25-year-old self some advice about career and life, what would it be? Any regrets?MARK: Let's talk about judges. The judge is against you. The rulings aren't going your way, and you are feeling a hostile vibe from the bench. What do you do?MARK: The USA PATRIOT Act, mass surveillance of Americans by the federal government, and the transformation of the FBI into an counterterrorism, counterintelligence, and cybersecurity agency are all things that happened in the last 21 years or so. As a lawyer and an American who cares about civil liberties, do you think these changes have brought some harm as well as enhanced security?BOB: We hope your memoir will be a bestseller. Where can people find it and what's next on the horizon for James Brosnahan?This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/4719048/advertisement
David Gilliland preaches on how the Lord Jesus expounds the Old Testament Scripture in the Gospel of John. He highlights the finality of Scripture, the function of Scripture and the fulness of Scripture in this Gospel. Readings: John 2:20-22, 7:37-39, 10:33-36, 12:14-16, 20:8-10. (Message preached in North America) Complete series: How the Lord uses the Old Testament in Matthew How the Lord uses the Old Testament in Mark How the Lord uses the Old Testament in Luke How the Lord The post The Old Testament in John (63 min) first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.
David Gilliland preaches on how the Lord Jesus expounds the Old Testament Scripture in the Gospel of Luke. He who fulfils Scripture in Matthew, and applies it in Mark, expounds it in Luke. Readings: Luke 4:3-4, 16-21, 5:1, 5-6, 6:47-48, 7:2, 6-7, 8:11, 15, 9:35, 10:38-39, 24:25-27, 44-49 (Message preached in North America) Complete series: How the Lord uses the Old Testament in Matthew How the Lord uses the Old Testament in Mark How the Lord uses the Old Testament The post The Old Testament in Luke (60 min) first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.
David Gilliland preaches on the beginning, the boundaries and the breadth of the Lord's ministry in the gospel of Mark as it relates to the Old Testament. Readings: Mark 1:1-4, 9-11, 7:10-3, 5-8, 10:1-9, 11:15-18, 12:10-12, 24-27, 35-37. (Message preached in North America) Complete series: How the Lord uses the Old Testament in Matthew How the Lord uses the Old Testament in Mark How the Lord uses the Old Testament in Luke How the Lord uses the Old Testament in The post The Old Testament in Mark (57 min) first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.
David Gilliland preaches on allusions to Old Testament Scripture, and accomplishments of OT Scripture, and answers to OT Scripture in the Gospel of Matthew. Readings: Matt 1:1, 21-23, 21:1-7, 26:47-48, 51-56. (Message preached in North America) Complete series: How the Lord uses the Old Testament in Matthew How the Lord uses the Old Testament in Mark How the Lord uses the Old Testament in Luke How the Lord uses the Old Testament in John The post The Old Testament in Matthew (59 min) first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.
Today I'm excited to bring you a unique episode with sister-brother due, Lori Balue and Mark Balue. I featured Lori in episode 37 for her dramatic health transformation. Previously, she had asthma, allergies, polycystic ovarian syndrome, infertility, brain fog, prediabetes (also known as insulin resistance) along with depression and anxiety, and she had been on a lifelong struggle to lose weight. Lori Balue ultimately went on to overhaul her health, primarily through lifestyle interventions. And now she's aging adventurously and planning to celebrate her 60th birthday by hiking the Grand Canyon rim to rim – something she never could have done before. Her episode is my most popular, so check it out. Well, her transformation was a powerful inspiration for her older brother, who was struggling with his own very significant health challenges. At the time, Mark had pancreatitis, type 2 diabetes, was on cholesterol and blood pressure medication, and was well over 300 lbs. When the doctor wanted him to add insulin, that was the wake-up call he needed. Lori and Mark's father had passed away in his 60s and so had another sister – and Mark felt he was on the same track. There are so many valuable insights in this episode. You'll hear … How his younger sister's transformative health experience inspired Mark and how he worked with her to reverse type 2 diabetes The lifestyle changes that Mark made to get his blood sugar under control, including swapping the standard American diet for a keto diet The science behind the keto diet for reversing type 2 diabetes and insulin resistance How Mark uses fasting for an extra boost The exercise that works best for Mark How finding food sensitivities contributed to his progress (for him, seemingly healthy foods like strawberries and peaches were a problem) The gut dysbiosis and infections Mark had to address The importance of mindset in making lifestyle changes And how Mark is today, which is down to his goal weight of 175 lbs with dramatically improved diabetes numbers, off cholesterol medication and half the dosage of blood pressure medication (with his doctor's blessing). He has effectively put his diabetes into remission. Mark Balue, 62, lives in Southern California. After returning from the Navy, he worked in Point Mugu, Antarctica, New Zealand, and Saudi Arabia for Lockheed before returning home and working the night shift for Lockheed, McDonald Douglas, and Boeing for 36 years in aircraft painting. A vacation with his family in 2020 made him realize that he wanted more out of life, leading him to reach out to his sister for help. Lori's personal experience inspired her to become a health coach. She's an Adapt Certified Functional Health Coach and a Functional Diagnostic Nutrition® Practioner. She helps women in menopause use functional labs, lifestyle, and health adventures to lose weight, stop pain, and create an active lifestyle to age beautifully and adventurously. You can find Lori at www.loribalue.com and on social media as @loribalue. On her site, find a link for Get Your "8 Essential Hacks to Losing that Belly Fat!" Workbook. Find the episode home page: www.rebuildingmyhealth.com/reversing-type-2-diabetes No matter what health challenges you're facing, I know you'll take away insights from my chat with Mark and Lori. Listen to Rebuilding My Health Radio wherever you find your favorite podcasts… Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, Alexa, Spotify, and much more! If you enjoyed this episode, we truly appreciate your subscribing/following, rating and reviewing it. It helps tremendously with others finding our podcast. Get a copy of our free guide, 4 Ways to Ease, Reverse or Even Eliminate Chronic and Complex Illnesses: https://rebuildingmyhealth.lpages.co/landing-page-for-4-ways-to-ease-reverse-or-eliminate-chronic-illness/ Follow Rebuilding My Health: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/rebuildingmyhealth Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/rebuildingmyhealth Pinterest - https://www.pinterest.com/rebuildingmyhealth ----- Audio Production, Mix & Podcast Editing by Sonorous Laboratory LLC - https://sonorouslab.com
Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E3 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the Wonders Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark. Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we're going to talk about practices and developing a practice carrying one on keeping one fresh and alive. All those things about having a personal. Yucca: right. And we hope that there'll be a lot of useful ideas and information for people who are just starting, but also for people who have had a practice and are looking for ways to. Continue to develop that or kind of stay in the habit of it. Mark: Right, because a practice is a wonderful thing to have, and it can also, if you're doing the same thing for months or years on end, you can also start. To feel a little routine, a little stale. And there are things you can do to sort of blow yourself out of that normality, get out of the rut, and try some new things that can incorporate into your practice in really enlivening waves. So that's part of what we're gonna talk about at the end of the program. But at first, let's start talking about developing a pro a a practice. When you're first starting. Yucca: right. Mark: When you come to Athe paganism or naturalistic paganism in some kind of sense, and you're like, okay, this cosmology totally works for me, right? I'm a science-based person, I'm a reason based person. You know, this evidence-based approach to spirituality, you know, really rings my bell. So now what do I do about that? Well, okay, I'm gonna celebrate these stations of holidays around the course of the year. That's great, right? That will help you to plug into the cycles of nature. And that's really what we're about, is about having a deep relationship with nature. Understanding ourselves as organisms that are a part of nature. That's a great thing, but what about day-to-day? , you know, the, the Sabbaths are seven, eight weeks apart, right? It's, it's, and at least for me, it's not enough to say, okay, every seven or eight weeks, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna pay attention to Nature I, I need more than that. So, Many people have a daily practice, or in some cases a monthly practice that's organized around the cycles of the moon. Yucca: Mm-hmm. . Right. So I think that a, a really good place to start, and this is whether you're coming in fresh or have had a practice for a while, is to really do some. Some reflecting upon what, why? Why do you want this practice? What, what is meaningful to you? What are your goals? What are you hoping to accomplish? Because it really is about what you are trying to get out of it, right? We don't have any Gods looking down on us who want us to perform this special thing at this special time. It's no what? What is it for you? Why are you doing it for you? And that could be a lot of different things and it's gonna be different for it's different for Mark and for me and for you. And it's gonna be different at different points in our own lives. Mark: for sure, because maybe your primary focus is your family unit, right? Maybe what you're trying to do is to create culture and and values for your family, and so demonstrating those and creating experiences that reinforce them. is sort of the centerpiece, the, the core ethic of what you're seeking to accomplish. That's great. Right. But that's gonna be a practice that's about finding the right childhood stories, right, and creating the kinds of household observances that give you and your children and partners Yucca: household members, whoever they are. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, the, the kind of experience that reinforces the values and, and cosmology that you find really meaningful. So all of that is great. But in, on the other hand, you may be a solitary person. You may either be a solo person or someone who is partnered with someone that isn't interested in your path, and so you're doing this yourself and you're trying to find, how do I do this in a way that continually fuels that sense of meaning Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: that I'm getting out of this. Practice of being an atheopagan or a naturalistic pagan and some of that may be okay. I'm engaging with people in the online communities. I am reading stuff that's being distributed by. The atheopagan Society or you know, various science writers or all that kind of stuff. But it can also be how am I gonna challenge myself to jump over some things that feel like hurdles for me? Yucca: Hmm. Mark: How am I gonna make myself bigger? How am I gonna stretch? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Because one of the things that we're really about as atheopagan or naturalistic pagans is the, the affirmation of the self, right? Yucca: right. Mark: We're, we're not about telling you that you've got original sin and you're small and need to be fixed. , our ethic is entirely different. It's about you are glorious and golden and we want you to bring the you that is you out into the world with as much visibility and vigor as you possibly can. And that's a radically different way of approaching things than the over culture wants you to approach them with. But at the same time, , it's much healthier. Yucca: right. and your practice is also a way that you can build in health into your life, right? That self care, that and, and thinking about how it feels to be you every day so it's really an opportunity for you to, to look at how you want to feel each day or each week or through the seasons, and to work towards that. It's a tool for you to be able to feel the way and experience, have the type of experiences you want in your life. Mark: yes. Yes. We have to remember that unlike many other religious paths, the point of our practice is happiness and self-actualization and to help make the world a better place. It's not about serving the edicts of some other power or some list of rules or any of. . So it's important in building your personal individual daily or weekly or monthly or whatever it is, practice that you keep that in mind. How is this helping me to be happy? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: How is this bringing more meaning into my life when I light those candles on my focus every night? Why do I do that? I don't do it just because it's a habit. I do it because it's meaningful to me, and the things that I say at that moment are moving to me, even though I see them every night. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And if that starts to get really dry or routines such that I lose the magic of it, magic in quotes, right? Then it's time for me to make some changes. It's time for me to figure out how can I make this practice feel like I'm pushing the edge. Yucca: right? Yeah. So why don't we talk about a few things that, that people might consider after sitting down. And really thinking about what it is that they want to achieve with their practice. And last week we were talking quite a bit about the Wheel of the Year, and that's a great place to start, right? With a, with a seasonal a seasonal regional approach. But what about a weekly or daily kind of practice? Mark: Yeah, the thing about the wheel of the year is that it happens pretty slowly and so, and it can take you a year of observing what's happening in nature around you at every given station of the Wheel of the year in order to get a good grip on, here's what I'm gonna celebrate as we go around, right? A year or more, maybe more cycles than that. But what you can do immediately is you can start doing a weekly practice or a daily practice, or if you like, you can follow the moon cycles and do like a monthly practice Yucca: or all of those, Mark: or, or all of those. I mean, if you're really gung-ho and you wanna do lots of ritual practices, then you know, by all means, it's, it's available to you and you're free to do it, and there's nothing wrong with it. It's good for you. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So when it comes to a daily practice, what I think about is what's gonna help me feel better connected. Yucca: Mm. Mark: You know, what I really want is to feel like I'm connected to nature and to this vast cosmos that gave rise to us. I want to, I want to acknowledge that on a daily basis. And so that's what I. that's what I do. And I also want to acknowledge what has gone before because I feel like, you know, if what had gone before hadn't gone before, I wouldn't be here. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So there's Yucca: tiniest little difference and he wouldn't be here and it's so many places. Yeah. Mark: absolutely. So there, there are so many reasons why. I mean, many of us, if not all of us, practicing this path have a lot of data in our heads about evolution and fossils and the progression of animal development over time. You know it, and maybe further back, further back into, you know, the earliest microorganisms all. Understanding of evolution and the development of the planet and the development of the sun and all those things. How do I make that personal to me in this moment? Because yes, it's history, but it's still going on right now, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: The, the, the burning of the sun is happening right now. The evolution of the earth is happening right now, and I am a piece. Yucca: right? Mark: So thinking about how you can develop a practice that acknowledges that somehow is something that's really valuable. And I can't understate the significance of lighting candles. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: You know, it seems, it seems very ordinary because you know, every church you go to, they like candles. Well, why do they do? Yucca: there's a reason for it. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. There is a reason for it, and the reasons to my mind are threefold. The first is there is a magic to creating fire out of nothing. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: You got this match, you got this candle. They're both these cold inanimate objects, but then suddenly there's. And that creates light and heat. It's, it's a, it's an inherently mysterious and incredible experience for us. Right. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So that's the first piece. The second piece is that we, Resonate psychologically to low light conditions, especially flickering low light conditions. This is why every bar you go into has low light conditions. Every dance club you go into has low light conditions because they understand that people will feel more free and liberated if they don't feel like they're being stared at, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and bright light makes them feel like they're being stared. So those are two of the big pieces. And then the third is that there's something about the ignition of fire on a focus or altar of symbolic objects that feels like bringing it to life. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And that sounds very woo and okay. but it feels like bringing it to life, it feels like, okay, these were, these were sedentary inanimate objects sitting on a shelf, but now there is a living process happening in the middle of them, right? Yucca: Hmm. Mark: That is shedding light and heat, and is also making all of those objects somehow engaged in an active process. And I think that all three of those things together really contribute to a personal practice. To a daily practice. And there's something very significant about taking that moment, you know, listening to your deeper longing. and saying, okay, you know, we're doing our evening thing. There's kids, there's there's movies to watch, there's dinner, there's all that kind of stuff. But I need 15 minutes to myself. I'm gonna light these candles and I'm gonna sit in near darkness, I'm gonna contemplate the fact that I'm alive. I'm alive and I'm here and it's rare and it's special and it's unique. There will never be another person and never be another organism like me. I'm this unique manifestation of the universe living a life, a temporary, small life, and I'm gonna seize this 15 minutes to really get. that's what I do with my daily practice. That that's, that's the difference that it makes in my life. Yucca: Hmm. That's so beautiful and thank you for sharing that with us. Yeah, for us. I don't have 15 minutes Mark: Yeah, I, I hear. Yucca: And. . I mean, there, there are moments where there are 15 minutes in the day, of course, but but because I have young children that for me to get time to be alone means waking up at three in the morning. And that's what I do to work sometimes when I really need to concentrate. I get up at three in the morning and that's, that's what does it. But. Have a little bit of a different approach for the daily practice. We have a, a morning and an evening, and it's something that brings the kids into it that they have as well. And I find that with, and then I have a lot of little things that I do throughout the day as well. But these are the big, the core and really the morning practices, the main one. It's the first thing that we do and it really sets this, the tone for the rest of the day. So we. . And if it's the summer, we'll actually go outside. And then in the winter we don't go outside for this because it's too way, way too cold. Cuz we live in a, a climate that gets very cold below freezing in the mornings. So, but we'll go to the window and we have a little wooden. Sign that we painted together with just some little kind of morning affirmations that we, that we came up with together that talk about some of the things like remembering that, you know, that we can control how, how our thoughts make us feel and kind of some things like that that are important to us. But we start with saying good morning to the. And just taking a moment to breathe together, three deep breaths, breathing together, looking at the sun, saying good morning to it. And, and I'm very pleased the kids have noticed how each day or over time, not each day, but over time, where the sun is when we do it, has changed. Right? They're noticing that, oh, the sun is over here now, but it used to be over there when it was rising. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: that there are some, we. Always talk about, you know, what are some things that we're grateful for and, you know, what are the kinds of challenges that might come that we might face today? And how, you know, how can we address overcoming that, right? If, if the days that planning is that we're going to go to grandma's house, but then the tires flatten, we can't go to grandma's house, you know, we kind of practice ahead of time, like, oh, how are we gonna prepare for that? And that helps that when it does most of the time, the bad stuff doesn't happen. but when it does, you go, oh, we talked about this. Right? And then talk about what it is that we're gonna focus on in ourselves, practice in ourselves. And, you know, it takes three, four minutes and it completely changes the day. And then Mark: Well, and it can, and it completely changes your kids Yucca: yeah. Mark: doing. Raises them to be very different people than if you hadn't done that. Yucca: Hmm. . Yeah. Well, Mark: significant. Yucca: yeah. Well, I think e everything that we do and that I, we have, there's too much pressure on parents already, but everything that we do, every choice that we're making is influencing their foundation for the world and how they understand the world. And this moment there, there's this, this thing that we do in our culture sometimes is that like childhood doesn't count some. Oh, it's just preparing for real life, right? I remember being at being in school, and it was always about preparing to be in middle school, and then it was preparing to be in high school, and then preparing to be in college, and then preparing to be in the real, and it felt so strange and empty after getting out of school. It was like, well, Mark: Now Yucca: the real life, right? It's like, no, no, no. This is the moment. This is the only moment that we have. Maybe we're lucky enough that there will be, that we will get to be here in five years or 10 years, but we don't know if we. Mark: that's. Yucca: I hope so much. I, I really, really hope and am doing everything I can to try and make sure that my kids will be here in 20 years, but they might not, we might all die in a car crash tomorrow. Right. So what we do today matters so much because it is the only moment that we actually have. Right. So our, our practice is really about trying to. To be really present and intentional Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: because, you know, we, we, as you were saying, we are this special rare being that is just for a moment, just the tiniest moment. So what, so what can I do to feel, to be aware of that? . Right. And then the end of the day practice that we do is, is very similar. We have another little piece of art that we made and and over time we'll probably change out what that piece of art is, but it has another little thing that we, that we read together, and then we talk about the things that we saw during the day, the things that we observed and felt. Also have a little like release ritual where we can release the, okay, the day's done, what happened happened, right? I can't change what happened, I can let go of that, but I can think about how I'm gonna do it differently in the future, but now it's time to rest and to let be what is. And so those are really the very first thing we. when we get up, well, when they get up . And the very first thing they, we do, and when we go to. now as an adult I steal moments out of the day and most of my, my personal that isn't with the, the kids practice actually is in the bathroom because that's the only place that I can lock the door, right? So I think that there's moments in our lives when we're trying to build in habits and practices that are, are placed, things that we're already. I'm sure there's some term for it, but a habit that you have, like every day you do certain things, at least every day. You go to the bathroom multiple times a day, but most people probably have a, a routine when they get outta bed. Yeah. You do this and then you go and you, if you, if you're a coffee drinker, first thing you do is you. The water on for your coffee or something like that. And that's a moment. There's a lot of power in those because you can add something in there. That's where you can add in a moment of, oh, I'm gonna take a moment and ground right while my coffee is brewing. I'm gonna ground every day. and you can slip that in and you can find places. It's gonna be different for everyone. I don't do a lot of commuting any now, any, any more now, but when I did, I had a thing when I got into my car and I put the keys in the ignition. That was a, that was my cue to, okay, what is the, I'd have a little ritual that I would do, so just remind me to be present and, and set intention and that sort of thing. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: So that's where we are right now. And of course, as life changes, those practices change, but you know, it's, people can find in their own lives what their, what do they wanna do, what's the intention that they have and, and how to do that. Mark: Sure. And one of the things that's great about this path and. Living it in a family is that you can go to, you know, you, you can go to your kids at 10 and say, well, we're gonna keep doing the the morning thing that we do, but, You know, you can have your own practice now too. You can have your own daily practice, and I mean, I'm happy to help you with ideas about that, but it's yours and it can be whatever you want it to be, so that as people are being developed and launched into adulthood, they're doing that with not only. A really strong sense of connectedness and a family support and of all those things, but also of of personal empowerment to make choices about what happens with them psychologically. One of the things that I find really a little shocking about the the Christian over culture is that because. Puts everything in the hands of its God. We aren't taught anything about the ritual tools that would help us to be happier, less paranoid, less hostile, more joyous, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: more creative and, and ritual skills will do all those things for. Yucca: Great. Mark: that's a lot of what the atheopagan path is about, is about unlocking your capacity as an individual to express those things in your unique way, which is unlike anybody else's. Yucca: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And that's, that's part of what we're trying to do with the practice. So we've just given some ideas for, just shared some of our own ideas for daily practices but that there's also the opportunity for other timeframes, right? A weekly practice or as we talked about, a, a monthly, so a lunar and then seasonal. So are there, there any things that you practice on a weekly basis? Mark: Well, I wanna step back for a second because I really want to appreciate the conscientiousness and the care that you bring to raising your kids in this tradition. I, I think. I mean, I just, I really wanna honor your, your, your carefulness about wanting your kids to have an experience that really unfolds them. And I, I just, I just think that's really great. So I wanted to say, so Yoko. Yucca: Well, thank you. Well, we're, we're really grateful to have an amazing community to be part of in all of that, right? Mark: Yeah, me too. Me too. I'm psyched about it. Yucca: yeah. Mark: So, yes, there are alternatives if you. One of the things that's really important to get about all of this, and we probably should have said it a long time before, is none of this is obligatory, Yucca: right. Mark: right? There's no guilt trip about missing a day in your daily practice or missing two weeks in your daily practice. There's no, the point is to help you be happier and more actualized, right? If, if life gets in the way, well, life got in the way. And when the time rolls around again, when you feel comfortable restarting you there, there are no apologies to be made. There's, there's no shame. Just go back to it, start it again. That's all fine. And the same thing is true if a daily practice isn't right for you. Well then maybe you want to do something once a week. Yucca: right? Mark: I mean, the Christians have their Sunday, right? And Yucca: lot of religions have, Mark: have their Friday into Saturday. There's, yes, there are a lot of religions that have a day that is very special for them. Well, you can declare one if you want, Yucca: Right. Mark: or you can declare an hour one day a week when you're gonna do your. Yucca: right? Mark: your ritual things that help you to feel connected and feel filled with the enormity of yourself and of the universe is the way that I would say that. So don't worry about all that. Find a cadence that works for you and maybe if you work 60 hours a week and have three kids, Maybe that's not very often. Maybe it's just like I'm gonna celebrate the full moons and the Wheel of the year Sabbaths, and that's all I can manage. Yucca: Mm-hmm. , or I'm gonna add. A daily thing in that when I wash my face in the morning, I'm gonna take 60 seconds extra to do something. Right. And I think now might be a good PO place to put in a reminder that a practice is something that when practices, it may not be easy in the. Mark: right. Yucca: right? Just because you decide, oh yes, I'm gonna do this every day. Doesn't mean you're gonna remember every day, but the more times you do, the more times you do it, the better you get at the skill. But it is, it is a skill, right? So if it's something that really is important to you and it's something that you choose to to work on, then that's something that over time, , you'll be able to develop, but you don't have to beat yourself up if it doesn't come naturally. In the beginning, I don't know who it would come natural for. Mark: Yeah, I, I, I don't either. And one of the reasons why we call it a practice is because you have to practice, right? It's, it's not an action. It's not a thing that you do, and then it's done. It's not a destination, it's a practice, which means it's an ongoing process. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And the day when you feel really angry, Fucked up and unable to deal with anything. is as good a day for your practice as any other day, because that's as true humanly as anything else. Yucca: Or perhaps even more important that day than other days Mark: Maybe. Maybe so. Yucca: maybe that is really the day that, that you need to, that you do need the time in front of the candle or the breathing or whatever it is that you do, Mark: Yeah, Yucca: right? Mark: because. . You know, if the world has really beat on you hard in a given day, you know, maybe you need to gather yourself back together and remember your reasons for self-esteem. Remember your reasons why you're doing what you're doing. And remember that no matter what has happened out there in the world, people don't see you for the entirety of who you. they can't, even if they know you for years, they can't. But if they don't, or if they only see you in really constrained situations like a professional office or something like that, they cannot know the enormity of who you are. And you need to, you need to hold the reality of that in yourself, even if they don. Yucca: right. Mark: Even if they aren't reflecting back to you how glorious you are, you still are is what I want to say to you. Yucca: Yes. Mark: Humans are magnificent and you're one of 'em, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: so. Yes, you can do a lunar cycle. That's not something that has appealed to me so much, although I love the moon. I'm always aware of what cycle the moon is in. I always go out and look at the full moon because I just love it. And I'll put out some water in the moonlight to turn into moon water that I can pour on my altar and stuff like that. I have some incredible water that I just got. We had this torrential rainstorm, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: something like four and a half, five inches of rain, torrential rainstorm, and then it cleared off and the full moon rose. This was on January 6th. and so I have storm moon, water. I, I, this is water that fell from the sky during the storm that I gathered and then sat out in the moonlight overnight. And I'm saving that for special rituals. And yes, of course all imaginary, but it's still really cool, right? Mm-hmm. Yucca: Yeah. Right. It's not that if you gave the water to me without telling me that it would suddenly do something different when I used it than if I used any other water. But because you have that memory and that association with it, that. it. Something's triggered in you when you look at it and use it and feel it. Mark: right. I mean, I will be saving this for our Saan ritual. Our hall's ritual coming up in the beginning of November because part of what we do then is pour water onto the dry ground to call the rain back. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: That's a part of the symbolic action that we do during that ritual, and so I brought a big storm with me, lots of rain. Yucca: Come back. All of it, yeah. Oh, wonderful. Mark: So you can do a monthly practice, a, a lunar practice. Some people are really. Connected with and motivated by the moon. I, I don't have that as much, but that's great. You know, if you feel that sort of connection with the lunar cycle, then by all means orient your personal practice around that cycle. You can do something at the new Moon. You can do something at the full moon if you want to. You can do them at the quarters as well. That gives you a weekly practice every seven days. So I think what we're basically saying here is craft the practice that really works for who you are. Yucca: right. Mark: And that leads me, oh, go ahead. Yucca: Oh, please continue. Mark: Well, that leads me to talking about, well, what happens when you have this practice and you've been doing it for five years and it's starting to feel really like you're phoning it. And to me, since spirituality is about growth, it's not only about connection and sense of connectedness, it's about growth. And so I think there are things you can do with your practice to push the edge. And they can be everything from, I've had a solitary practice for a long time. I'm gonna invite somebody else into that. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Someone who I trust, someone who I'm connected with. I'm gonna show this part of my life to them and see if they'll join me in participating in these kinds of activities. That's a big risk, but it's also something. Presents an opportunity for relationship building that could be really powerful. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And I've got others, but Yucca. I'm interested in hearing what you have to say. Yucca: I don't remember . I, I was gonna say something. Oh, it's fine. That's the way conversations go, right? So I think, I mean the, the keeping. having a little bit of the, the new and the growth and the, the novelty, the that in. I think that's one of the ways that keeps us present too. Because when it's just the same, we don't notice as much. Mark: It is amazing how much we can drop into routine mode. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean, driving to work, if you do it every day, you can't remember the drive. Yucca: Yeah. Did you, did you stop at that stop sign? You must probably, did you even go through, you had to have gone through the stop sign, right? Cause it was back there. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. It is astounding how much our brains will skip over stuff that seems repetitive, which is why when we travel or take vacations or do creative things, we're really engaged and have very powerful memories because it's all new. Yucca: great. Mark: We remember the novelty. , if your practice is starting to feel routine and drab, it's time to take a step. It's it's time to do something new. Yucca: Right? And we're not saying get rid of the stuff that's working. Right, because if there's something, if you have something where you know, every single evening before you go to or whatever and it, it, it fills a function for you, then, then keep that up. But what is it? What can you add or what can you shift? What can you change a little bit that might. Work better for you and looking at what is it that you want too, because sometimes just making any change might not be the change that that is gonna help you in that moment. Mark: Right, right. And there. There are changes that you can make that are internal changes. There are changes that you can make that are sort of outward facing changes, like inviting someone else or a, a, a community of people into participating in your celebrations of the sabbaths or whatever it is. There are internal things that you can do too. Like, okay, I'm gonna take up a meditation practice. and that can be very hard for a lot of us. I have a D H D I'm terrible at meditating really bad at it. My mind is just all over the place and I understand that at some level that's a deep Buddhistic failing . But honestly, I just, I don't do very well with it. I do great with sitting out in nature and observing things. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: because it's like, oh, bird, oh, squirrel. Oh, you know, I'm, oh, waving trees in the wind. I'm, I'm constantly stimulated by different things that are drawing my attention, but if it comes down to just closing my eyes and trying to have an internal experience, I'm not very good at that. But a lot of people are, and it gives them a lot of feed. It gives them a lot of benefit. from a psychological and spiritual standpoint. So maybe that's the thing that you want to do. Maybe you need some kind of experience that's going to shake you up spiritually, and that could be everything from going skydiving to taking a hallucinogen, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: any, you know, some sort of intense experience that just makes you. Rethink things. Gives you a new perspective. Yucca: Right. And as we were saying before that if things start, if you feel like you've fallen off that wagon, it's okay. Right? You could just, it's not gone. The wagon's waiting, waiting for you. Right. You can get back up because you are the wagon. , we're just gonna play with the metaphors there. So, it, mm-hmm. Mark: Well, I was gonna say the metaphor that I usually use for people's like New Year's resolutions or. , you know, declarations, I'm never going to do this again, or I'm always going to do this again. These very black and white sort of declarations. It's sort of like the over culture's idea of virginity, right? It's like, okay, when it's gone, it's gone. It's gone forever. Well, that's. Bullshit. It's entirely invented. It has nothing to do with reality. The truth is that if you decide you're gonna stop smoking pot and you do that for six months and then you smoke pot, well, all you gotta do is not do it tomorrow. Yucca: Yeah. It's not like it's, it's all over Mark: Yeah. You, you, you haven't ruined anything. You've just backslid. there's probably a reason for that that you should interrogate, because it'll tell you more about yourself. But just, just do it again tomorrow. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: just keep going. You know? It's like, perfection is not the standard. Yucca: Mm-hmm. , but that, Mark: Oh, go Yucca: that you mentioned, that's, that's really important though, right? Looking at, well, why did it. , why did it happen today? Right. And is that something that I can prepare myself for in the future? Right? If, if a similar situation comes up in the future, what can I do instead? Or what can I do to not be in that position or, you know, that, that, that can all be incorporated in Yeah. Mark: or can I just forgive myself because my mom died? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and it was, it was pretty damned intense, and I just went back to the chemical crutch that was most convenient for me, but my mom's only gonna die once, so it's not like I'm creating excuses to keep doing this again and again. This was a really serious, intense experience for me, and, and I, I fell back on my habits. There's no shame there. Yucca: Mm. Mark: you know, there's, there's, there's no, there's no guilt trip and, you know, self-flagellation thing that's necessary there. There's just understanding. Okay, that's why I did that. Now tomorrow, I'm not gonna do that again. Yucca: Yeah. Or for the rest of the evening. Mark: Sure, Yucca: Right. You know, that's just, that's one that that could be a little bit tricky when it, whenever it's something like that, like, oh, well, I'll just do it for the rest of the day. , right? When you're trying to change dietary habits or substance habits, well, it's like, well, I had one bite of the thing. I might as well, you know, I, I had that, Mark: Today's blown. I Yucca: Yeah, I might as well just order the pizza and while I'm at it, get the lava cake and I'll have that Coke too. Yeah, . So this one just, that's, just be careful about that cuz you know, you. getting back on the horse. You can always get back on the horses. Get back as soon as you can. Mark: Right, Yucca: But yeah. Mark: And and I think in the broader sense, it bears saying that our path. Really doesn't endorse the idea of self-punishment as the means to growth, right? You know, the, the guilt, the shame, the self-flagellation, all that stuff, none of that is beneficial. That's just really a nasty model for how people's behavior modifies. Yucca: That's how you get obedience. That's not how you get growth. Mark: Right, Yucca: Right. And even then you only get obedience when you're looking. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: E, exactly. So, yeah, and we're not about obedience. We're we're about you being you. And that's it. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: it. Right? Yucca: well, and, and happy. And part of, you know, this larger context of a, you know, healthy and joyous society, part of this incredible planet that against all odds exists at this moment in time. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. So all that said, this sort of big picture stuff, yes, you can do those less frequent practices you can also shake up your existing practice with something that'll shake it up and, and that is, I mean, really that is down to you what. what will shake it up for you? Will going to a dance club and dancing with other people around is, is that the big hurdle to get over? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Or is it cooking a meal and inviting people to come in and all of them can experience your cooking? It's like, there, there are lots and lots of different ways that it can be. Yucca: or letting yourself do something that is just about you, right? That yes, you are going to get that massage or you are just gonna hang out and. Turn everything off and be by yourself for a couple of hours, or go on that hike or whatever it is that for you is the thing. Mark: right. Or broaching that subject with your partner about that thing that you want sexually that you've never talked about, right? Because it's about owning more of yourself, right? It's like, this is me. I'm okay with me, I'm gonna present me to the dearest person in my world and we'll see what happens. I just think that if your, if your orientation is towards growing and getting bigger and more complex and more interesting and more creative throughout the course of your life, then these things will occur to you. There are. of other possibilities that Yucca and I have not described in this podcast that would work perfectly for shaking up your practice and, you know, bringing that sense of adventure into your life a little more. But the point is to be willing to do it and it takes some gut. So maybe you have to sit for a while in your personal practice. Okay, here I am. I'm sitting with the candles and I'm thinking, well, what I would really like is this. And then there's this cascade in your mind of, oh, but I can't have that because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, some of those things may be true, but you can still assert what you want in the. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: right? You can still do unexpected, you know, go on a road trip. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: It's like, okay, you know, you've been married for 25 years and the kids are all grown and stuff, and it's like, you know what? I want a vacation by myself. And it's knowing insult to you. It's not anything about you, it's just I want to go on a road trip. Get on the road, go do that, and maybe it's only two, three days long. It doesn't have to be, you know, this huge production, but just getting yourself out and feeling like, wow, here I am behind the wheel and I can go anywhere I want. And it's not a problem for anybody else. I can just go there. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and when I'm tired of driving I can stop and I can find a motel or a campsite. That's a great feeling. It's an incredible feeling. It's very freeing and think there are a lot of people out there that could really do with that kind of experience. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Well, there's a lot more things to brainstorm, but I think that's a good place for us to pause and, and leave it to all of you to brainstorm what sort of things those might be for you and if that's what, where you're at with your practice, so, Mark: sure. For sure. More than anything else. I think, you know, the takeaway from this is a personal practice is a means to your personal growth. Yucca: mm-hmm. Mark: So have one, know, figure out, figure out something that feels like it feeds you in that way. And there's lots of materials out there. There's a bunch of stuff at atheopagan dot com about starting a practice. Ultimately it's down to you. It's down to what you want. And what we want for you is what is most engaging and actualizing and happiness, fomenting and all that. Cause that's how we roll. Yucca: Yep. And we'll be back next week with a holiday episode. Mark: Yes, a holiday episode. Woo-hoo. Hard to believe it's rolled around already, but Yucca: here we are. Mark: here we are. Alright, thank you so much, Yucca. Yucca: Thank you everybody.
Daily Lectionary: Isaiah 65:8-25; Luke 3:1-20So with many other exhortations he preached good news to the people. (Luke 3:18)In the Name + of Jesus. Amen. A blessed and joy filled Christmas to all the Saints of God! John the Baptist is making ready the people of God for the beginning of Jesus' ministry. We have journeyed with the Christ child through this season of Christmas. The angels have sung, the shepherds have shared, Jesus is named and circumcised, the Magi are arriving, and we are getting ready for the Baptism of Jesus. John is proclaiming the law and Gospel to the people of Israel. The kingdom of God is at hand and John is preparing the people as the last of the prophets. John is that final prophet that ushers in the era of the Kingdom of God in our presence. Christ will come to the waters of the Jordan, the Heavens will be open, the dove will descend and the voice from Heaven will proclaim the arrival of God's Son. John the Baptist prepares the way for the Messiah.The final day of Christmas connects us to the ministry and work of Christ as our redeemer. John not only proclaims the Law, but he also proclaims the “good news.” He proclaims the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He proclaims that the Messiah is here to deliver the people of God. The Law will be fulfilled, and the final sacrifice will be given for the forgiveness of sins. John's words of the Gospel are for us too! We have journeyed through Christmas and are on the eve of Epiphany. The way for our salvation is prepared. We have heard the message of repentance and forgiveness. We are washed in the waters of Baptism. We are brought into His family. We are declared the first-born son and are given the inheritance of life everlasting. The world works on hearts and minds to deceive us that we are not ready or nor worthy of this free gift but through our Baptism we are made ready and prepared for eternal life and the glorious return of our Savior Jesus Christ. In the Name + of Jesus. Amen.Grant us, O God, the strength and courage, To live the faith our lips declare; Bless us in our baptismal calling; Christ's royal priesthood help us share. Turn us from every false allegiance,That we may trust in Christ alone; Raise up in us a chosen people, Transformed by love to be Your own.(LSB 600-Mark How the Lamb of God's Self-Offering stz 3)-Pastor Timothy Paul Davis is Pastor of Trinity Lutheran Church in Athens Georgia.Audio Reflections Speaker: Patrick Sturdivant, Development and Marketing Executive at Higher Things.Study Christ's words on the cross to see how you can show more Christlike grace in your life. Perfect for group or individual study, each chapter has a Q&A at the end, and the back of the book includes a leader guide. Available now from Concordia Publishing House.
ELW 304 - Christ, When for Us You Were Baptized // ʟᴏʙᴛ ɢᴏᴛᴛ, ɪʜʀ ᴄʜʀɪꜱᴛᴇɴ ZACHARY'S NOTES: Stanza 1 // The dove appears as “peaceful” and “urgent” as a flame. These are both images of the Spirit in Scripture, but in this context, the Spirit is “peaceful” because of the promise spoken - “you are my beloved Son” - yet “urgent” because of the work of ministry to save and redeem the world.Stanza 2 // Christ comes to do “God's holy will” - that is, to fulfill what we, as sinners, cannot. He is sent to “proclaim the reign/kingdom of heaven” - to give mercy wherever sinners are found.Stanza 3 // From baptism, a seemingly picturesque moment, Jesus moves “straightway and steadfast unto death.” This is what it means to be a servant - to die in this world, and be clothed in the righteousness given/fulfilled by our Lord. The hymnal 1982 originally reads “...obeyed [his] call” - meaning the call of God, the Father. Christ is “well-pleased” with the Son as the one who is obedient or “steadfast” to death.Stanza 4 // The fourth stanza is a prayer. Finding “perfect freedom in God's service” can sound like the Law, but to be a servant in the kingdom of Christ is to be named as a sinner, and forgiven as one of God's own children - as stanza two says - to hear the “reign of heaven proclaimed.” The cross is signed on us with the promise God gives - “you are my beloved child.” The “perfect freedom” we find in the cross is God's righteousness given to sinners.OTHER SUGGESTIONS:LBW 79 - To Jordan Came the Christ, Our Lord - ᴄʜʀɪꜱᴛ, ᴜɴꜱᴇʀ ʜᴇʀʀLBW 192 - Baptized into Your Name Most Holy - ᴏ ᴅᴀꜱꜱ ɪᴄʜ ᴛᴀᴜꜱᴇɴᴅ ᴢᴜɴɢᴇɴ ʜÄᴛᴛᴇELW 305 - When Jesus Came to Jordan - ᴋɪɴɢ'ꜱ ʟʏɴɴLSB 404 - Jesus, Once with Sinners Numbered - ᴍɪꜱꜱɪꜱꜱɪᴘᴘɪLSB 405 - To Jordan's River Came Our Lord - ᴡɪɴᴄʜᴇꜱᴛᴇʀ ɴᴇᴡELW 442 - All Who Believe and Are Baptized - ᴇꜱ ɪꜱᴛ ᴅᴀꜱ ʜᴇɪʟELW 447 - O Blessed Spring - ʙᴇʀɢʟᴜɴᴅELW 448 - This Is the Spirit's Entry Now - ʟᴀɴᴅ ᴏꜰ ʀᴇꜱᴛELW 449 - We Know That Christ Is Raised - ᴇɴɢᴇʟʙᴇʀɢELW 450 - I Bind unto Myself Today - ꜱᴛ. ᴘᴀᴛʀɪᴄᴋ'ꜱ ʙʀᴇᴀꜱᴛᴘʟᴀᴛᴇELW 454 - Remember and Rejoice - ꜱᴛ. ᴛʜᴏᴍᴀꜱELW 456 - Baptized in Water - ʙᴜɴᴇꜱꜱᴀɴELW 458 - Praise and Thanksgiving Be to God - ᴄʜʀɪꜱᴛᴇ ꜱᴀɴᴄᴛᴏʀᴜᴍLSB 594 - God's Own Child, I Gladly Say It - ʙᴀᴄʜᴏꜰᴇɴLSB 600 - Mark How the Lamb of God's Self-Offering - ʀᴇɴᴅᴇᴢ À ᴅɪᴇᴜSubscribe to Sing to the Lord on your favorite podcast player:
Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com S3E42 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Yucca, Mark: And I'm the other one, Mark. Yucca: and today we're talking about surviving the holidays as a pagan. Mark: right? Yucca: Yes. So welcome to December . Here we are. There's, there's a lot to go into with this, and later on in the month we're gonna come back and talk about the different traditions and projects and things that you can do. But today we're gonna start with the, the kind. The, the more secular approach to the holidays and all of the family expectations and all of that cultural stuff that's going on. They kind of, everybody shares regardless of whether they're Pagan or Christian or whatever they are. Mark: Yeah, exactly. One of the things that is very weird about the mainstream culture is that it, it seems to load nearly all of its holiday festivity into a five week period or six week period at the end of the year, when historically there would've been. Celebrations around the course of the year, you know, harvest holidays and, and so forth. And there would've been. You know, several days taken out to celebrate those things. And so it seems as though with all of this ology compressed to this very short period of time, it can just be very overwhelming for people and it can give them a sense of never quite doing it well enough, Yucca: yeah. Mark: right? That that feeling of the obligation to make it perfect and that it never is quite Yucca: right? It's supposed to be special. It's supposed to be this magical, but, but, but, but, but, but yeah. Mark: right. Yucca: And whenever I hear people talk about it, There's almost always this underlying, there's this exhaustion behind it, right? There's this, there's an excitement about it and there's so many wonderful things, but people just seem so exhausted just because of what you were talking about. Trying to get all of that in, take a whole year's jolliness, and stick it into those few months or few weeks, excuse me, not months. Mark: Yes. And I think, you know, some of that is this sort of set of unfair expectations that we put on people to, you know, to create this. Event Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: set of events. But I also think that there's other stressors that go into that, into that mix. You know, it's like you're gonna have to deal with your family more if you, if you do that, you know, for most people it's like, okay, I'm gonna have to deal with my family more. Well, there are usually, for most people, there are stressors around that. Yucca: Right. Even if you, even if you dearly, dearly love your family, there's all of those dynamics I find getting back together with my siblings. You know, we're adults. We've been adults for decades, but instantly it's like we're children again with this. Same, you know, picking on each other and all of the ridiculousness, you know, and, and we have a, a pretty decent relationship. But that's even with a decent relationship that, you know, there's still all of that, all of those emotions. Mark: Sure, sure. And I think that, you know, with parents particularly, you know, parents will treat you like a child for your whole life. Un unless they're really pretty together, parents Yucca: Well, Mark: figure out that you've, you've finally grown up. Yucca: but it's hard that all kind of blurs together. Right. You know, it was yesterday. They were changing your diapers. Mark: Right, right. And you know, this brings, you know, it brings you into engagement with philosophies of parenting, right? Because maybe the grandparents just want to indulge, indulge, indulge, indulge. And you as a parent have to put some breaks on that and say, no, I'm sorry. You know, candy for breakfast doesn't work. Yucca: Or enforcing that the kids get to have boundaries. The kid gets to say no, you know, or things like that, you know, Mark: Yes, you do not. Yucca: particular thing is that Mark: do not have to hug Weird Uncle Ralph Yucca: Yeah. So, and then, you know, on top of that, in, at least here in the Northern hemisphere, the weather has changed. We're in a colder time of year. People are indoors. There tends to be more illness, and we're not even taking into account, you know, covid or anything like that, but just people are, there's, people aren't always feeling good this time of year, and we're encouraged to be eating all of these sweets and foods that we normally wouldn't eat. And so, We're putting ourselves in these, yeah, more alcohol. We're just in a more vulnerable place emotionally and physically and asking so much of ourselves at the same time and so much of others, Mark: Right. Right. And that Then, oh, Yucca: buy everything. We're being asked to buy everything and be told about how it won't be magical without it, and you need this and you need that, and you're getting tricked by, by companies that spend millions and millions of dollars to get your attention. Mark: Yeah. And that of, I mean, the, the financial stresses, you know, that's a whole other level of stressor that, you know, that happens with Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And Yucca: And this year particular, right? That's something that happens every year, but there's a lot of challenges right now with all of that, just, you know, on a global level. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. So there's all that. And then if you were of an a. Religion. Then there's the layer of, okay, well how do I then live in a a way that I find fulfilling and meaningful? And not run a ground on somebody else's judgments. Right. Whether it's that you're weird or that you're evil , it's, you know, because either of those are pretty, yeah. Either of those are pretty unpleasant to wear, honestly. And so that's this sort of brew that the holidays is, right? It's all those kinds of things. The long list of. Tasks that have to be done and the decorating and the the buying and the just everything. Plus. You know, wanting to be as a non theist pig and wanting to say, you know, actually it's the winter solstice for me. That's, that's what I consider most meaningful. And here's what I'm gonna do to carve out some time to observe that on top of Christmas or Hanukkah or, you know, whatever, whatever more mainstream holidays you may be going to celebrate. Yucca: And I wanna pause this here for a second and say, it might sound like we're sounding a lot like wrenches right now. We are both Mark and I adore the holidays, and this time of year we're just starting with the, okay, how are we gonna address the, the self care and the balancing? And again, next week we're gonna get into here's some fantastic traditions and things you can do. But, but that we do really need to look at it from lots of different angles, right? And underst. , there is stress and we do need to take care of ourselves during this time period, as well as the, the more joyous side of it all. Mark: That's right because the hope, of course, is that we come out of the holidays feeling fed, right, feeling energized by all of the, the festivity that we've had. Even if it's tiring we can catch up on sleep, but you know, to feel as though we've had these meaningful kind of golden moments in the course of, of going through the holidays. That's, that's really the goal. And in order for that to happen, you gotta take care of yourself in the meantime. Otherwise, the current of the holidays will just sweep you along and That's a very out of control feeling, and it's not good for you. Yucca: Yeah, so why don't we start with the kind of commercialism side, right? How, what are some strategies that people can have to be more aware of that and more intentional with it? Mark: Okay, well the first strategy that I think is really important is to broaden the definition of gift. Because capitalism obviously wants to sell you a product. They wanna sell you a thing in a box. and that thing is made of resources that were carved out of the earth and may very likely end up in a landfill in not too short order. Yucca: Right. Mark: So it may not be the most, it may not be the, the, the best choice to choose a thing in a box. Now let me, let me put a caveat in. When it comes to children, you know, to to smaller children, my philosophy is let them have the equivalent of the, the secular winter solstice, holiday, the Christmas, because they will feel terribly deprived and terribly sad. If they don't have that experience, that doesn't mean they have to be mountain with gifts, but, I, I believe that in the case of children, you give them Yucca: of it. Yeah. Mark: And you give them things in a box. Yucca: Yeah, we do both. We'll talk more about this, but my family, we do, we do both Solstice and Christmas as separate holidays. Mark: right? Right. So, broadening the definition of what constitutes a gift means experiences. Experiences can be gifts. And that can be. Tickets to a concert. It can be a date night. It can be you know, we're gonna go dancing in this particular place. It can be you know, let's just go get coffee and talk for two hours. When do we ever get a chance to do that? It can be, let's go for a hike. There are lot, and, and many of those things don't have to cost much or any money depending on your relationship with the person. It can be. How about a massage or there are just, there are a lot of different things that you can do that will be in many ways, more memorable for people and don't involve the purchase of a thing in a box. Yucca: right? Mark: So broadening the definition of what constitutes a gift, I think is really important. In some cases, broadening in some cases, a gift can be something like, here's three hours of free childcare, right? I'm gonna, I'm, I'll watch the kids. You, you go and do whatever you want to do. Believe me, that's a very, very welcome gift for a lot of people. Yucca: is. I will wash the kids and wash your dishes if you want. Extra. You know, a bow on top there. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, these are things that are tremendously kind when someone, you know, opens an envelope or you can put the, a little gift certificate for whatever it is in a box, right, and wrap it, and all that kind of stuff. People will gen generally be very warmed by the fact that you want to put personal attention and time into your relationship with them. Excuse me Yucca: things that you create. I mean, one of my favorite gifts I ever got was a, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: I mean, brother-in-law wrote us a poem and it was just so thoughtful, and you can tell that he really worked on it. And it, you know, I, I have it up. I don't put a lot of things on the wall. I've got it up on the wall because it just has stayed with me for all of these years, just how amazing it was, Mark: How lovely. Yeah, and people are creative in all kinds of ways. I mean, the handmade gift. Not to be confused with the Handmaid's Tale, the hand hyphen made gift is a wonderful thing. You know, whether, whether it's a piece of writing or a piece of music or a compilation CD of music that you think the person would like or a Or, or something from, from a local artist, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: because I mean, to me there is a categorical difference between an artwork that was created by a local artist that is trying to sustain themselves through their art and something that was manufactured in a factory in China. Yucca: Right. Mark: They're, they're just, they're not the same. You know, supporting your local producers of beautiful objects, right? That's a wonderful thing. If, if, if the kind of person that you want to make a gift for is the sort of person that appreciates that kind of thing, then by all means, you know, do that. And I should say, now, I, I mentioned kind of the, the first part of my formula earlier, which is about making sure that children have. Gift receiving experience. What we do is we don't do gifts as adults. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: We really don't. I mean, when, when we need something, we, we get it. Yucca: Mm. Mark: and so what we have done in the past is we put up a, we put up a yule tree, a mid-winter tree and decorated and all that great stuff, and we put treasures underneath. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Things that we have that we just love, that are really cool. Like I have an antique uranium glass slipper that that phosphorouses under ultraviolet light because it's uranium glass, right? They used to make that and it's just this very beautiful little thing. So it's one of the things that goes under the tree and it gives us a sense of kind of wealth. You know, look, look at the cool things that are in our life. You know, objects from nature to appreciate, you know, antlers and bones and skulls and abalone shells and, you know, all these wonderful things. So we, we don't do the gift thing for adults. And we might make an exception once in a while if there's something that seems like particularly needed or wanted on the part of some adult that we love. But the amount of stress that is taken off of you by not having to buy a thing for this long list of recipients. Is profound. It will make a huge difference in your experience of the holidays. Yucca: Yeah, it really does. And I, I wanted to add on a little bit with what you were saying. You talked about the different types of gifts and then also for the children. You know, giving them the, the traditional kind of box gifts, but that's something that you can do both of, and as time goes on, the ratio of which kind of gift they're getting as they're becoming teenagers, as they're growing into adulthood, it shifts what, what you're doing with them, Mark: Right. Yucca: And so then it's just a natural thing and it's not, it's never. Being deprived. It's about just what this is really about, is about the, the love for each other and the gratitude and the giving and the, you know, to use the to be stereotypical, the spirit of giving, right. It really is. Right. And, and being about that and not the, the object right now there is also, there are a lot of, of practical things that this time of year. You know, coming out of harvest, being about to go into the, to these very cold times of year when there's not a lot coming out of the garden, there's not a lot being produced, of being ready for the cold to come. So there's, there's some practical part about, you know, the giving the socks, the, that sort of thing that just. To being prepared materially for what's to come there. There's an element of that as well, which I think is important just to keep in mind that that's one way that we do show love is to make sure, hey, you've got, you've got your warm socks for the year, right? Mark: Yeah. You're, you're, you're gonna be comfortable. Yucca: yeah. Mark: Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a great thought. In Iceland, it's traditional to give books for Christmas, and Christmas Day is a day of sitting around in warm socks, drinking hot chocolate and reading books. Yucca: Oh, wonderful. Mark: The, Yucca: Cuddling with kiddies too. I, if they've got cats, right? Cat cuddling. Mark: Yeah. You know, those kinds of traditions they make for some very warm memories. They really do make for some super nice times. And having downtime like that in the holidays is another thing that's really important. When we talk about when we talk about self-care that's certainly one thing to be considering is when am I doing nothing? Yucca: right? Mark: know, it's, it's, it's hard to imagine that it's possible, but you gotta do nothing sometimes. Yucca: Or at least. Have nobody else's mind in yours. Cause we've really lost solitude, especially in the last decade or so as, as the social media and smartphones and all of that stuff has just kind of invaded into our personal lives. So there's so little time that we're ever simply alone with ourselves, and I think that that's essential, right? I think we're social animals. We need to be around other people as well, but, , but especially in the dark of the year, Mark: Yes. Yucca: to be alone a little bit is, is just vitally important, Mark: I, I completely agree. And ironically, the inverse is true as well because you, it's a time for gathering with loved ones and for, you know, celebrating the fact that we have people that love us in our lives and, and all that good kind of stuff. But you can go overboard with that. People, people, especially introverted people, or neurodiverse people who get overwhelmed by too much social stimulus really need their, their alone time. And so it's important to, to plan for that and make sure it happens. Yucca: Yeah. And thinking about both, it's kind of like in the dark of the year. We we're celebrating the light as well. I mean, that's a lot of what the Christmas tree with the lights on it is about, is bringing that light into the dark. But we're recognizing and seeing both. It's a celebration of both. So I think that that's one way to look at it with the, with the family, but with self as well. Right. Solitude and company. Mark: So wanted to talk a little bit about a couple of other gifty sorts of ideas. There's always food, know, baked goods. I mean, an incredible gift would be, you know, cook dinner for people and bring it to their house, you know, the week before. Before the big event, you know, something, you know, just when things are going super crazy, you know, give people a meal that they don't have to think about. You know, just, just being aware of what people's needs are and, you know, thinking about your own, you know, your own. You know, where are the places where you get really exhausted and you think, oh God, I wish I didn't have to do X. Well, if somebody else did X for you, wouldn't that be amazing? Yucca: Mm-hmm. right. Mark: Yeah. So, I really encourage that, that the incorporation of that, that personal touch into gifting Either through experiences or through handmade things or through which includes baking and cooking and all that good kind of stuff. And then also because there is there's a guilt factor in in. Commercial acquisition as well. Just really being mindful, you know, of where things come from, who you're buying from. There are, you know, there are tons of Etsy stores, there are tons of indigenous sort of. Internet based stores that you can order things from, you know, figure out who you really want to be giving your money to. Is it some international conglomerate with shareholders, or is it, you know, just somebody who's trying to, trying to get by? Yucca: Hm. Wonderful. Well, why don't we, why don't we talk about the second part of this which is the family gatherings or the social gatherings. Maybe not necessarily family, but maybe the office gatherings or whatever it is because it's a big one, right? There's a big one in terms of whether you are of the same religion or not, but also just dealing. The various personalities when people are in this kind of heightened place to begin with. Mark: And I, I think a great place to start with that is the recognition that in those circumstances, everybody is under a certain amount of stress, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: except possibly the most garous extrovert, the. Pretty much everybody else is feeling some level of what are people gonna think of me? You know, how this is the office party. How is my boss thinking of me? You know, there's, there's weird Uncle Ralph his weird opinions. How am I going to avoid getting reigned into a long conversation with him? All those, all those things, right? So under having a little compassion for the other people in the room is very helpful in, in my experience. It is, it is so challenging for us as people, and this is a weird thing to really get that the other people around us are fully fleshed out human beings with internal lives and, you know, their, their own. Yucca: story. Mark: Their own journey, their own aspirations and their own internal voices that nag at them and all that kind of stuff. There's a, there's a term for that, that realization called Saunder which when I heard that, I was glad that there was a word for it, because I think it's really important that people have that experience of others. It makes them more compassionate and more humane. Sa, S O N D E R. Yucca: Mm. Okay. Mark: And I'm not sure what language it's in. The, so that, that's a place to start is understanding that everybody may be a little bit on edge, a little bit keyed up because they're. At, at some level, when you're doing social engagement, there's a performance aspect to it, right? know, I, I wanna make sure I'm acting appropriately. I wanna make sure I'm, you know, not displeasing the people around me, all that kind of stuff. Yucca: Right. Reading everything correctly and Yeah. And responding and, and, and just being compassionate for those people. Yeah. And for yourself too, right? Yeah. Mark: Yeah, so, so now you've got these social engagements that you've gotta go to. Well, how do you take care of yourself, especially as someone who practices aio paganism or non theist paganism, or some other variety of naturalistic earth honoring path. You know, as someone who is an outlier. Philosophically and spiritually, how do you kind of stand in the truth of yourself while at the same time not picking fights with others that may have strong opinions about that? And I guess my first answer to that is that if their opinions are strong enough, you don't. Yucca: great. Mark: You, you, there's no point in, in, you know, trying to win an argument with some rabidly, right wing, evangelical Christian who just wants to tell you that you're going to hell. Yucca: Right. So the, so the first step is, is this something that you're going to engage with or not? Right? And in many cases, you may simply choose not to, but in the situation, in the event that you do choose to, right? Then thinking about before you go into that, how are you going to prepare and how are you going to respond for it? You know, you, you might choose something like doing some sort of, you know, shielding ritual before you go in, maybe doing some. Premeditation on role playing of likely scenarios that are gonna come up. Practice, practice some of your deflection techniques or expressions that you're going to use. If it is, if you've decided that it's really valuable and worth it to you to be there for whatever that reason is, right? Cause it's not our. Job here to be telling you what you should or shouldn't do. We're not, you, right? We have no idea what it feels like to be you or the shoes that you're in, but we're just encouraging you to think about how to protect yourself in that situation and still get the, what you're trying to get out of it. But no, at the end of the day, you're, you can't control anybody else, right? You cannot control the outcome. You can work on trying to get the outcome you want, but know that you're not, you can't control. Mark: Right? Yucca: Right? And if you're gonna go into this situation, you've gotta be prepared for that possibility. Mark: Yes. So part of thinking about that, how you're gonna protect yourself is how disclosive do I want to be with this particular group of people. It's your office party, for example. If the subject comes up, you may wanna say, well, my family celebrates the winter solstice. You don't need to go any further than that. You have a right to have your religious beliefs in the workplace, just like everybody else does. But, so you may want to sort of express this is, you know, this, this is what me and my family do. And then there may be questions, well, how does that work? And what's that about? And you can explain as much as you're comfortable with in Yucca: Or not, you don't. Mark: or not. Yes, exactly. Yucca: And here's the thing, depending on how you feel about it, you don't, you don't owe them that. You also don't owe them the truth. Right. Mark: true too. Yucca: That's, that's up to you. If you don't feel like that's something you wanna get into, oh, wonder how was your Christmas? Oh, great. You don't need to say, oh, actually I don't practice, you know, I don't believe in Christmas or Mark: I don't Yucca: like that. Mark: Christmas. Yucca: You know, you don't owe 'em anything, it's fine. It's however you wanna handle that. Mark: Yep. Yep, that's true. And that's, that's an example of where, of where, you know, being literally truthful can actually be a lot more harmful than, you know, applying the, the, the social lubricant of the little white lie. That just lets things keep clicking along smoothly. And of course we have to be very judicious about deciding when those things apply, but it bears saying that A lot of people would be a lot lonelier if they were fully candid about everything in their lives. with everybody around them. Yucca: Mm-hmm. And so, you know, we've been talking about the context of an office party, but that may also be the same, but you have the same things to think about with the family gathering whether you're the one organizing that or the one attending it, or, you know, And again, maybe it's not just one gathering. Maybe you've got three gatherings and you're going to the in-laws and yours and all, and then all of the different sides, you know? So this is something I would encourage kind of sitting down, like literally sitting down and just having a little strategy party with yourself, right? If you do journaling or something like that, it's a wonderful time just to maybe make some, just write down some of the. Possibilities and the strategies that you wanna have and what, what are your values and, and what do you hope to get out of it, and what do you wanna protect yourself from? And, and just be, go into it being aware because once when you're aware, you have a, a better chance of being able to respond in a way that you want to respond when you're not caught off guard. Yeah. Mark: right. Yeah. And the other thing to remember is that. And this is something that may not leap immediately to mind for people that come out of traditions like Christianity that require that you only be a Christian and not anything else, naturalistic, paganism is not like that. You can go through all of the rituals of, of a Christian Christmas gathering and no harm, no foul. You haven't offended anybody or betrayed yourself or hurt yourself or anything. Yucca: Yeah, there's Mark: You can. Yucca: gonna be mad at you about it. Mark: That's right. You, you can, you can have and still do all of your own celebrations and rituals on the solstice or as close to the solstice as works for you. And there's nothing wrong with that. So there's nothing hypocritical about it. So you don't necessarily need to, you know, lead the, the prayer to Jesus. But you can bow your head and just sort of be there. That all that's up to you. And it's, it's perfectly okay to play along in order not to create conflict. Yucca: Yeah. As long as that feels good to you, right? If it, if, if that doesn't feel good to you, then you don't need to be, you don't need to put yourself in this, that situation, right? So, Mark: Yeah. And, and that really is important to say because there are, I mean, I know there are a lot of people for whom it's like, I couldn't not go to my parents' Christmas. Gathering. Right? I couldn't not go to that. Even though they know that they really need to betray themselves deeply to be there. And when confronted with that kind of a paradox you really need to think seriously about whether you're gonna go. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: You know, it might, it might actually be the, the better part of Valor to just say, I, I can't come this year. I, it just, it doesn't feel like it would be right for me. Yucca: Mm. Mark: And you don't have to go into any more detail than that. Yucca: And here's the 10 of cookies that I baked for you, Mark: Yes, Yucca: Or whatever, whatever it is that might smooth it out. Mark: Uhhuh Yucca: Yeah, so we actually last year we did a, a full episode specifically on this. So if this is something that people are, are kind of wanting more of definitely check out our episode from last year on, on this. Mark: was that a year ago? Yucca: It was a year ago. Yep. Mark: Oh man. Yucca: right. We would've talked about this early December maybe, maybe even late November. So it just flies. But why don't we transition now to some of the things that we can do during this. Time period in preparing for the holidays, throughout the holidays in terms of self care. Right. And again, we'll get later into some of the traditions and stuff that you, we can do the specific holiday celebrations. But but is there something that you would suggest to start with Mark? Mark: Well, I start with the body. Yucca: Mm. Mark: I mean there's all the psychological stuff that we, that we go through at this time of the year, and there are all the techniques that we have for working with the psyche, but getting enough sleep, Yucca: Absolutely. Mark: eating, eating some semblance of a decent diet, even if it's a little heavier in sugar than it usually is, it's sugar and fat. Don't worry about that so much, but make sure you're getting protein. Make sure you're getting a vegetable Yucca: whatever it is that, you know, works for your Mark: for you. Yeah, exactly. And get that sleep. Be aware of how much you're drinking. Yucca: mm-hmm. Mark: Because it seems like all of these gatherings in, in many cases, there's, there's alcohol going on. So if you do drink, just really be aware of, of how much you're drinking and if it starts to feel like that's not what you wanna be doing pair it back. You know, tell people, and you can facilitate that for yourself by bringing something to drink for yourself to a gathering. Right? There's wonderful like. Sparkling cranberry ciders and pomegranate ciders and things like that. There are some really delicious things now and I'm gonna put in a plug for my, my local brewery, Lagunitas Brewing Company, which has a great beer called a n a, which is it's, or I P n A. It's like an ipa, but it's na, which is no alcohol. And it's delicious. It actually tastes like a beer, but it doesn't have any alcohol in it. So, it's worth checking that out if you need to. So, you know, enough said about that. If you don't drink, this can be a very challenging time of the year. So, take care of yourself. If you go to meetings, go to meetings do the things that you need to do in order to keep all that in. Yucca: right. And just a little tip with our bodies, if you can get a little bit of sun early in the morning, that just, just even if it's a couple of minutes where you're outside and you. Kind of turn your face towards the sun. It really does make a big difference in terms of resetting your clock and, and kind of helping you out with that, with the sleep patterns and just getting your body to be doing the things that it needs to be doing at the right time, because this time of year it can be really. Really tricky on our bodies and our rhythms as and as we have the lights on all the time and later on, and when is it dark and when is it not? And, and our, we are, first and foremost, we are physical creatures, right? We are animals with, you know, millions and millions of years of adaptation to a certain environment, which we are not living. Mark: Right. Yucca: We, we are animals in captivity, right? We're, we're. And so just trying to be aware of that a little bit is a, is a good start. Mark: Yes. Yucca: So, yeah. Mark: that brings us to the, the psychological things that we can do in order to support ourselves and. To me, the number one thing there, if you're taking care of your, your physical self, the number one thing there is to go back to that first principle of, of naturalistic paganism, which is pay attention, right? If there's snowfall, watch the snowfall for 15 minutes. Listen to the rain on the roof, crack the window open so that you can smell the smell of the rain. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Go for a walk in the snow. Notice what birds are around, if any. Just, you know, notice what phase the moon is in. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: There's so many. There are so many simple things that we can do to keep ourselves re-grounded in the fact that, okay, I'm on a, I'm on a physical planet that's going through a physical set of processes and all this culture stuff is fantastic, but I'm still just on a physical planet doing physical processes and it's all gonna work out. Yucca: Speaking of the moon December has the mites, which is one of the biggest meteor. There's two really big meteor showers a year. And if you get clear skies pretty much for the rest of the month even if you don't get it on the night that it's peaking, you've got some good chances to see some really beautiful meteors. So if you get a chance just to be out there and, and right now, Mars and Jupiter are both really bright up in the sky. Even if you're in a city, those are, are probably gonna pierce through that light pollution and just be really beautiful. Just to take a moment and just take a look, Mark: Yeah. Yeah. So other psychological things and it, I, I put this in the psychological category, even though it's a physical thing. Take a shower. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Especially if you go through any kind of a stressful experience, take a shower, there is something about, and there's literally something physical about it. It's not just the sensations all over your body that create more of a grounded sense of being in your physical self. There, there is a way that splashing water creates negative ions that tend to kind of ground out the the, the kind of zazi feeling, the jed feeling that you can get from having From having social interactions or being in a crowded store or any of those kinds of things. So that's really a go-to as far as I'm concerned. Yucca: I don't know about the ions, but I know that it, that for me, the rush, the sound of the rushing water and that just being able to control those, that that sensory input is just, is really amazing. Like, I'll do a shower and then a bath, right first the shower to kind of wash it to like to, to do like, okay, the feeling like I'm washing it all away and then, The bath of just getting to just feel like melting into that water and Mark: Soaking in the heat. Yucca: And I, I like to actually run to be in the tub while it's filling, so it has that, that sound, that rushing waterfall sound and it's filling up. And that's one of the favorite things that we do in. In the holidays because I don't have a tub where I live. We don't actually have hot water either, so we, we just heat our water up on the stove to like do dishes or something like that. But we go into town to my mother-in-law's. She's got the big bath tub with water heater and it's like, oh yeah, we can do some nice relaxing for a long time. Mark: nice. Very nice. Yucca: yeah. That's a wonderful thing about the holidays, but there's other things too. Like a shower is a really wonderful one. But if you don't have access to that, right, there are other types of things that you can do that feel like you are transitioning, that you're switching between these. You know, you're getting away from some of that stress. You're letting go. I mean, there's the shaking, there's the dancing, there's the stepping into a ritual space, and we've talked a lot about this on, on the podcast. And you can do things like going into a, the dark room, right? Turning all the lights off, and then things like that. Mark: right, right. Coming back to yourself psychologically is very important at this kind of time because it is so easy to get to be what we call ungrounded. You know, it's easy to get your thoughts spinning if you're dealing with family. It's easy to get all the old messages from the family going again, right about ways that they criticize you or that they don't respect you sufficiently, or that they haven't recognized how you've changed. Yucca: And all the things they do that are just so annoying that drive you crazy. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: All those things that you feel about them. Mark: so all that stuff can be going in your mind, and if you just let it keep going, then you can become increasingly stressed and more and more kind of separated from yourself. So. Sit down and just breathe for five minutes. It doesn't have to be a super long time. Yucca: Off. Take the, the earbuds out of your ears. Mark: yeah. Get, get away from the gadgetry for a minute and just, you know, the other thing that I find is very, very helpful, and this sounds. Like, sort of brute force magic making. But get a big rock you know, a rock that weighs 15, 20 pounds. Sit it in your lap, sit on the ground, or sit on the floor and just sit cross-legged if that's comfortable for you, and just sit that rock in your lap. And. Yucca: just ground with it. Mark: Just wait. Yucca: Wait. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. You'll, you'll be amazed at what a difference it makes, just feeling that gravity pulling you back to the earth. And it, it clears the, clears all the spinning stuff out. It's, it's it's a powerful technique. Yucca: Mm. Yeah. Love that one. Mark: S. I I discovered that, or, or innovated it or whatever it was. My, my former wife was in a really kind of panicky space. She had I don't even remember what the circumstance was, but she was in this very hypermanic. Very anxious space and you know, was telling me about all the reasons that she felt that and that this was so, and she wasn't a pagan. And so I said, well, you know, we. We, we do stuff with things like that. So have a seat, you know, sit on the ground. And I put this big rock in her lap and she immediately began kind of to giggle. It was like, . That's great. That's so great. And sure enough, you know, given 10 minutes or so, her consciousness had really sort of changed. But yeah, so that's why I keep a big rock around. Yucca: It's great. Yeah, so this, this really can be such a lovely time of year and a really, really meaningful time of year and, and, You know, getting ready, ending out this year and getting ready for a new one and, and all of that. And so it's just a time that can also, you know, can be stressful. And so it's a good time to be aware and just really be present with ourselves and, and really honest with ourselves about what it is that, that we need, what's feeding us what's not. And thinking about. You know, what do we value and what obligations do we or do we not have and, and how to handle that. So, yeah. Mark: And if there are things that we feel obligated to do that we really don't want to do, are there alternatives? Is, is there some other way to get at that? You know, is it possible to. I don't know. I, I, I don't know what the example is. If, if the holiday meal with the family is a nightmare, maybe a restaurant, you know, there, there are, there are other ways of coming at this. If, if it's Yucca: Yeah. Just some creative thinking about it. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Yeah. So. So we hope that you all have a wonderful intentional holiday season Mark: Yes. And may cramps come, but not take you away in his bag this evening. Because in, in, in Bavaria it's Crumps knocked. So, hope that you don't get whipped with Bert's twigs too much or hauled away in his bag. Yucca: That's great. All right, well thank you everybody. We will see you next week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncFy1zRA9HM 28 DAYS LATER Written by Alex Garland CLOSE ON A MONITOR SCREEN: Images of stunning violence. Looped. Soldiers in a foreign war shoot an unarmed civilian at point- blank range; a man is set on by a frenzied crowd wielding clubs and machetes; a woman is necklaced while her killers cheer and howl. Pull back to reveal that we are seeing one of many screens in a bank of monitors, all showing similar images... Then revealing that the monitors are in a... INT. SURGICAL CHAMBER - NIGHT ...surgical chamber. And watching the screens is a... ...chimp, strapped to an operating table, with its skull dissected open, webbed in wires and monitoring devices, muzzled with a transparent guard. Alive. Behind the surgical chamber, through the wide doorframe, we can see a larger laboratory beyond. INT. BRIGHT CORRIDOR - NIGHT A group of black-clad ALF Activists, all wearing balaclavas, move down a corridor. They carry various gear - bag, bolt cutters. As they move, one Activist reaches up to a security camera and sprays it black with an aerosol paint can. INT. LABORATORY - NIGHT The Activists enter the laboratory. CHIEF ACTIVIST Fucking hell... The Chief Activist takes his camera off his shoulder and starts taking photos. The room is huge and long, and darkened except for specific pools of light. Partially illuminated are rows of cages with clear perspex doors. They run down either side of the room. In the cages are chimpanzees. 2. Most are in a state of rabid agitation, banging and clawing against the perspex, baring teeth through foam-flecked mouths. They reach the far end of the lab, where on a huge steel operating table they see the dissected chimp. FEMALE ACTIVIST Oh God... The dissected chimp's eyes flick to the Activists. Blood wells from around the exposed brain tissue. Tears starts to roll down the Female Activist's cheeks. CHIEF ACTIVIST (to Female Activist) Keep your shit together. If we're going to get them out of here... The Finnish Activist is checking the perspex cages. FINNISH ACTIVIST I can pop these, no problem. CHIEF ACTIVIST So get to it. The Finnish Activist raises his crowbar and sticks it around the edge of one of the doors - about to prise it open. At the moment, the doors to the laboratory bang open. The Activists all turn. Standing at the entrance is the Scientist. A pause. The Scientist jumps to a telephone handset on the wall and shouts into the receiver. SCIENTIST Security! We have a break-in! Get to sector... A hand slams down the disconnect button. SCIENTIST ...nine. The Chief Activist plucks the receiver from the Scientist's hands, and then rips the telephone from the wall. A beat. 3. SCIENTIST I know who you are, I know what you think you're doing, but you have to listen to me. You can't release these animals. CHIEF ACTIVIST If you don't want to get hurt, shut your mouth, and don't move a fucking muscle. SCIENTIST (BLURTS) The chimps are infected! The Activists hesitate, exchanging a glance. SCIENTIST (continuing; stumbling, FLUSTERED) These animals are highly contagious. They've been given an inhibitor. CHIEF ACTIVIST Infected with what? SCIENTIST Chemically restricted, locked down to a... a single impulse that... CHIEF ACTIVIST Infected with what? The Scientist hesitates before answering. SCIENTIST Rage. Behind the Activists, the bank of monitors show the faces of the machete-wielding crowd. SCIENTIST (desperately trying to EXPLAIN) In order to cure, you must first understand. Just imagine: to have power over all the things we feel we can't control. Anger, violence... FINNISH ACTIVIST What the fuck is he talking about? 4. CHIEF ACTIVIST We don't have time for this shit! Get the cages open! SCIENTIST No! CHIEF ACTIVIST We're going, you sick bastard, and we're taking your torture victims with us. SCIENTIST NO! You must listen! The animals are contagious! The infection is in their blood and saliva! One bite and... FEMALE ACTIVIST They won't bite me. The Female Activist crouches down to face the wild eyes of the infected chimp behind the perspex. SCIENTIST STOP! You have no idea! The Scientist makes a desperate lunge towards her, but the Chief Activist grabs him. FEMALE ACTIVIST Good boy. You don't want to bite me, do you? The Female Activist gives a final benign smile, then the Finnish Activist pops open the door. SCIENTIST NO! Like a bullet from a gun, the infected chimp leaps out at the Female Activist - and sinks its teeth into her neck. She reels back as the chimp claws and bites with extraordinary viciousness. At the same moment, a deafening alarm begins to sound. FEMALE ACTIVIST (SHRIEKING) Get it off! Get if off! The Finnish Activist rips the ape off and throws it on to the floor. The infected chimp immediately bites into the man's leg. He yells with pain, and tries to kick it off. 5. Behind him, the Female Activist has started to scream. She doubles up, clutching the side of her head. FEMALE ACTIVIST I'm burning! Jesus! Help me! SCIENTIST We have to kill her! FEMALE ACTIVIST I'm burning! I'm burning! CHIEF ACTIVIST What's... SCIENTIST We have to kill her NOW! Meanwhile, the Female Activist's cries have become an unwavering howl of pain - and she is joined by the Finnish Activist, whose hands have also flown to the side of his head, gripping his temples as if trying to keep his skull from exploding. CHIEF ACTIVIST What's wrong with them? The Scientist grabs a desk-lamp base and starts running towards the screaming Female Activist... ...who has ripped off her balaclava - revealing her face - the face of an Infected. She turns to the Scientist. SCIENTIST Oh God. She leaps at him. He screams as they go tumbling to the ground. The Chief Activist watches in immobile horror as she attacks the Scientist with amazing ferocity. INT. CORRIDOR - NIGHT Another ACTIVIST makes his way down the corridor towards the lab. ACTIVIST (HISSES) Terry? Jemma? 6. No answer. ACTIVIST Mika? Where are you? He reaches the door to the lab, which is closed - and... ...as he opens it, we realize the door is also soundproofed. A wall of screaming hits him. He stands in the doorway - stunned by the noise, and then the sight. Blood, death, and his colleagues, all Infected. ACTIVIST Bloody hell. The Infected rush him. FADE TO BLACK. TITLE: 28 DAYS LATER INT. HOSPITAL ROOM - LATE AFTERNOON Close up of Jim, a young man in his twenties, wearing pale green hospital pyjamas. He has a month's beard, is dishevelled, and asleep. We pull back to see that Jim is lying on a hospital bed, in a private room. Connected to his arms are multiple drips, a full row of four or five on each side of his bed. Most of the bags are empty. Jim's eyes open. He looks around with an expression of confusion. Then he sits up. He is weak, but he swings his legs off the bed and stands. The attached drips are pulled with him and clatter to the floor. Jim winces, and pulls the taped needles from his arm. JIM Ow... His voice is hoarse, his mouth dry. Massaging his throat, he walks to the door. 7. INT. COMA WARD - LATE AFTERNOON The door to Jim's hospital room is locked. The key is on the floor. He picks it up and opens the door. Jim exits into a corridor. At the far end, a sign read: COMA WARD. There is no sign of life or movement. Jim walks down the corridor. One of the doors is half-open. From inside, there is the sound of buzzing flies. INT. HOSPITAL WARDS - LATE AFTERNOON Jim moves as quickly as he can through the hospital, still weak, but now driven by adrenaline. All the wards and corridors are deserted. Medical notes and equipment lie strewn over the floors, trolleys are upended, glass partition doors are smashed. In a couple of places, splashes of dried blood arc up the walls. He reaches A&E. On one wall is a row of public pay phones. He lifts a receiver, and the line is dead. He goes down the line, trying them all. In the corner of the A&E reception is a smashed soft-drinks machine, with a few cans collected at the base. Jim grabs one, rips off the ring-pull and downs it in one go. Then he grabs another, and heads for the main doors. EXT. HOSPITAL - LATE AFTERNOON Jim exits and walks out into the bright daylight of the forecourt. The camera begins to pull away from him. JIM Hello? Aside from a quiet rush of wind, there is silence. No traffic, no engines, no movement. Not even birdsong. EXT. LONDON - SUNDOWN Jim walks through the empty city, from St. Thomas's Hospital, over Westminster Bridge, past the Houses of Parliament, down Whitehall, to Trafalgar Square. 8. A bright overhead sun bleaches the streets. A light drifts litter and refuse. Cars lie abandoned, shops looted. Jim is still wearing his hospital pyjamas, and carries a plastic bag full of soft-drink cans. EXT. CENTRAL LONDON ROAD/CHURCH - NIGHT Jim walks. Night has fallen. He needs to find a place to rest... He pauses. Down a narrow side street is a church. He walks towards it. The front doors are open. INT. CHURCH - NIGHT Jim walks inside, moving with the respectful quietness that people adopt when entering a church. The doors ahead to the main chamber are closed. Pushing them, gently trying the handle, it is obvious they are locked. But another open door is to his left. He goes through it. INT. CHURCH - STAIRWELL - NIGHT Jim moves up a stairwell. Written large on the wall is a single line of graffiti: REPENT. THE END IS EXTREMELY FUCKING NIGH INT. CHURCH - GALLERY LEVEL - NIGHT Jim moves into the gallery level, and sees, through the dust and rot, ornate but faded splendor. At the far end, a stained- glass window is illuminated by the moonlight. Jim pads in, stands at the gallery, facing the stained-glass window for a moment before looking down... Beneath are hundreds of dead bodies. Layered over the floor, jammed into the pews, spilling over the altar. The scene of an unimaginable massacre. Jim stands, stunned. Then sees, standing motionless at different positions facing away from him, four people. Their postures and stillness make their status unclear. Jim hesitates before speaking. 9. JIM ...Hello? Immediately, the four heads flick around. Infected. And the next moment, there is the powerful thump of a door at the far end of the gallery. Jim whirls to the source as the Infected below start to move. The door thumps again - another stunningly powerful blow, the noise echoing around the chamber. Confused, fist closing around his bag of soft drinks, Jim steps onto the gallery, facing the door... ...and it smashes open. Revealing an Infected Priest - who locks sight on Jim, and starts to sprint. JIM Father? The Priest is half way across the gallery JIM Father, what are you... And now the moonlight catches the Priest's face. Showing clearly: the eyes. The blood smeared and collected around his nose, ears, and mouth. Darkened and crusted, accumulated over days and weeks. Fresh blood glistening. JIM Jesus! In a movement of pure instinct, Jim swings the bag just as the Priest is about to reach him - and connects squarely with the man's head. JIM Oh, that, was bad, that was bad... I shouldn't have done that... He breaks into a run... INT. CHURCH - STAIRWELL - NIGHT Down the stairwell... 10. INT. CHURCH - NIGHT ...into the front entrance, where the locked door now strains under the blows of the Infected inside. JIM Shit. EXT. CHURCH - NIGHT Jim sprints down the stone steps. As he reaches the bottom the doors are broken open, and the Infected give chase. EXT. CENTRAL LONDON ROAD - NIGHT Jim runs - the Infected have almost reached him. A hand fires up a Zippo lighter, and lights the rag of a Molotov cocktail. As Jim runs, something flies past his head, and the Infected closest to him explodes in a ball of flame. Jim turns, and sees as another Molotov cocktail explodes, engulfing two in the fireball. He whirls, now completely bewildered. WOMAN'S VOICE HERE! Another Molotov cocktail explodes. The Infected stagger from the blaze, on fire. WOMAN'S VOICE OVER HERE! Jim whirls again, and sees, further down the road... ...Selena, a black woman, also in her twenties. She wears a small backpack, a machete is stuck into her belt - and she holds a lit Molotov cocktail in her hand. ...Mark, a tall, good-looking man - throwing another bottle. It smashes on the head of the last Infected, bathing it in flame... The burning Infected bumps blindly into a car. Falls. Gets up again. 11. Blindly, it staggers off the road, into a petrol station - where an abandoned car has run over on the pumps. The ground beneath it suddenly ignites, and the petrol station explodes. EXT. SIDE STREET - NIGHT Selena and Mark lead Jim into a side street. JIM (DAZED) Those people! Who were... who... MARK This way! Move it! Jim allows himself to be hurried along. EXT. SHOP - NIGHT Selena stops outside a newsagent's shop. The shop's door and windows are covered with a metal security grill, but the grill over the door lock has been prised away enough for Selena to slip her hand through to the latch. INT. SHOP - NIGHT Inside, most of the shelves have been emptied of confectionery. Newspapers and magazines litter the floor. The magazine covers of beautiful girls and sports cars have become instant anachronisms. At the back of the shop, a makeshift bed of sheets and sleeping bag is nestled. This has obviously been Selena and Mark's home for the last few days. INT. NEWSAGENT - NIGHT Jim, Mark and Selena enter the newsagent's and pull down the grill. MARK A man walks into a bar with a giraffe. They each get pissed. The giraffe falls over. The man goes to leave and the barman says, you can't leave that lying there. The man says, it's not a lion. It's a giraffe. 12. Silence. Mark pulls off his mask and turns to Selena. MARK He's completely humorless. You two will get along like a house on fire. Selena, who has already taken off her mask, ignores Mark. SELENA Who are you? You've come from a hospital. MARK Are you a doctor? SELENA He's not a doctor. He's a patient. JIM I'm a bicycle courier. I was riding a package from Farringdon to Shaftesbury Avenue. A car cut across me... and then I wake up in hospital, today... I wake up and I'm hallucinating, or... MARK What's your name? JIM Jim. MARK I'm Mark. This is Selena. (BEAT) Okay, Jim. We've got some bad news. Selena starts to tell her story, and as the story unfolds we see the images she describes. SELENA It began as rioting. And right from the beginning, you knew something bad was going on because the rioters were killing people. And then it wasn't on the TV anymore. It was in the street outside. It was coming through your windows. We all guessed it was a virus. An infection. You didn't need a doctor to tell you that. It was the blood. 13. Something in the blood. By the time they tried to evacuate the cities, it was already too late. The infection was everywhere. The army blockades were overrun. And that was when the exodus started. The day before the radio and TV stopped broadcasting there were reports of infection in Paris and New York. We didn't hear anything more after that. JIM Where are your families? MARK They're dead. SELENA Yours will be dead too. JIM No... No! I'm going to find them. They live in Greenwich. I can walk. (heading for the exit) I'm going to... to go and... SELENA You'll go and come back. JIM (pulling at the grill) Yes! I'll go and come back. MARK Rules of survival. Lesson one - you never go anywhere alone, unless you've got no choice. Lesson two - you only move during daylight, unless you've got no choice. We'll take you tomorrow. Then we'll all go and find your dead parents. Okay? EXT. TRAIN TRACKS - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark walk along the Docklands Light Railway in single file. Ahead is a train. Behind the train, as if spilled in its wake, are abandoned bags, suitcases, backpacks. Mark drops pace to let Jim catch up. 14. MARK How's your head? Fucked? No reply. MARK (gesturing at the city) I know where your head is. You're looking at these windows, these millions of windows, and you're thinking - there's no way this many people are dead. It's just too many windows. Mark picks up a handbag from the tracks. MARK The person who owned this bag. Can't be dead. Mark reaches in and starts to pull things out as they walk, discarding the personal possessions. MARK A woman - (car keys) - who drove a Nissan Micra - (teddy) - and had a little teddy bear - (condoms) - and carried protection, just in case. Marks tosses the condoms behind him. MARK (DRY) Believe me, we won't need them anymore than she will. He hands the bag to Jim and walks ahead. Jim pulls out a mobile phone. He switches it on. It reads: SEARCHING FOR NETWORK. The message blinks a couple of times. Then the screen goes blank. Jim looks left. He is now alongside the train. The inside of the windows are smeared with dried blood. Pressed against the glass is the face of a dead man. 15. Jim drops the phone and breaks into a run - running past Mark and Selena. MARK (HISSING) Hey! EXT. GREENWICH COMMON - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark jog across Greenwich Common. Jim gestures towards one of the streets on the far side of the green. JIM (LOW VOICE) Down there. Westlink Street. Second on the left. EXT. WESTLINK STREET - DAY The street is modest red-brick semi-detached houses. They stand outside Number 43. Jim waits while Selena scans the dark facade. SELENA If there's anyone in there who isn't human... JIM I understand. SELENA Anyone. JIM I understand. Selena shoots a glance at Jim. Jim is gazing at the house. MARK Okay. EXT. BACK GARDEN - DAY Jim uses the key under the flowerpot to open the back door. INT. HOUSE - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark move quietly through the kitchen and the downstairs of the house. 16. Surprisingly, everything is neat and tidy. Washed plates are stacked by the sink, newspapers on the table are neatly piled. The headline on the top paper reads simply: CONTAINMENT FAILS. They reach the bottom of the stairs. Selena gestures upwards, and Jim nods. They start to ascend. At the top of the stairs, Selena sniffs the air, and recoils. Jim has noticed it too. His eyes widen in alarm. MARK (WHISPERS) Wait. But Jim pushes past and advances along the top landing, until he reaches a door. By now the smell is so bad that he is having to cover his nose and mouth with the sleeve of one arm. Jim pushes open the door. Inside, two decomposed bodies lie side by side on the bed, intertwined. On the bedside table are an empty bottle of sleeping pills and a bottle of red wine. Mark appears behind him. Jim stares at his parents for a couple of moments, then Mark closes the door. INT. BATHROOM - DAY Jim sits on the toilet, alone. He is crying. In his hand is a piece of paper: "Jim - with endless love, we left you sleeping. Now we're sleeping with you. Don't wake up." The paper crumples in his fist. INT. LIVING ROOM - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark sit in the living room, on the two sofas. Jim looks dazed, uncomprehending. Selena watches Jim, her expression neutral. SELENA They died peacefully. You should be grateful. JIM I'm not grateful. Jim's words hang a moment. Then Mark talks, simply, unemotionally, matter-of-fact throughout. 17. MARK The roads out were all jammed. So we went to Paddington Station. Hoping: maybe we could get to Heathrow, maybe buy our way on a plane. My dad had all this cash, even though cash was already useless, and Mum had her jewellery. But twenty thousand other people had the same idea. (A MOMENT) The crowd was surging, and I lost my grip on my sister's hand. I remember realizing the ground was soft. I looked down, and I was standing on people. Like a carpet, people who had fallen, and... somewhere in the crowd there were infected. It spread fast, no one could run, all you could do was climb. Over more people. So I did that. I got up, somehow, on top of a kiosk. (A MOMENT) Looking down, you couldn't tell which faces were infected and which weren't. With the blood, the screaming, they all looked the same. And I saw my dad. Not my mum or my sister. But I saw my dad. His face. A short silence. MARK Selena's right. You should be grateful. SELENA We don't have time to get back to the shop before dark. We should stay here tonight. Jim nods. He isn't sure what he wants to say. JIM My old room was at the end of the landing. You two take it. I'll sleep down here. SELENA We'll sleep in the same room. It's safer. 18. EXT. LONDON - DAY TO NIGHT The red orb of the sun goes down; the light fades. As night falls, London vanishes into blackness, with no electric light to be seen. Then the moon appears from behind the cloud layer, and the dark city is revealed. INT. HOUSE - NIGHT Jim is on the sofa. In the moonlight, we can see that his eyes are open, wide awake. Selena is curled on the other sofa, and Mark is on the floor - both asleep. The house is silent. Jim watches Selena sleeping for a couple of moments. Then, quietly, he gets off the sofa and pads out of the living room, down the hall to the kitchen. INT. KITCHEN - NIGHT Jim enters, standing just inside the doorway. He looks around the room. On one wall, a faded kid's drawing of a car is framed. Above the counter, on a shelf of cookery books, an album has a handwritten label on the spine: "Mum's Favorite Recipes". Jim walks to the fridge. Stuck to the door is a photo of Jim with his parents, arm in arm, smiling at the camera. Jim is on his mountain bike, wearing his courier bag. FLASH CUT TO: Jim, sitting at the kitchen table as his Mum enters, carrying bags of shopping. Jim walks over to the bags and pulls out a carton of orange juice, which he pulls straight to his mouth and begins to gulp down. His Dad walks in from the garden. JIM'S DAD Give me a glass of that, would you? JIM (draining the carton, and giving it a shake) It's empty. CUT BACK TO: 19. Jim touches the photo, their faces, lightly. Jim is facing away from the back door, which has a large frosted-glass panel. Through the glass panel, unseen by Jim a dark silhouette looms against the diffused glow from the moonlight. Through the kitchen window, a second silhouette appears. Then there is a scratching noise from the back door. Jim freezes. Slowly, he turns his head, and sees the dark shapes behind the door and window. A beat - then the door is abruptly and powerfully smashed in. It flies open, and hangs loosely held by the bottom hinge. Standing in the doorframe is an Infected Man. Jim shouts with alarm as the Man lunges at him - and they both go tumbling to the floor. At the same moment, the figure behind the kitchen window smashes the glass, and an Infected Teenage Girl starts to clamber through the jagged frame. The Man gets on top of Jim, while Jim uses his arms to hold back the ferocious assault. A single strand of saliva flies from the Man's lips, and contacts Jim's cheek. JIM (SCREAMS) Help! Suddenly, Selena is there, holding her machete. The blade flashes down to the back of the Man's neck. Blood gushes. Jim rolls the Infected Man off, just in time to see... ...Mark dispatch the Girl half way through the kitchen window. The Girl is holding Mark, but her legs are caught on the broken glass. Mark jabs upwards into the Girl's torso - she stiffens, then slumps, and as Mark steps back we see he is holding a knife. Jim hyperventilates, staring at the corpse on the kitchen floor. JIM It's Mr. Bridges... Selena turns to Jim. She is hyperventilating too, but there is control and steel in her voice. 20. SELENA Were you bitten? JIM He lives four doors down... Jim turns to the Girl sprawled half way through the window. JIM That's his daughter... SELENA Were you bitten? Jim looks at her. Selena is still holding her machete at the ready. JIM No... No! I wasn't! SELENA Did any of the blood get in your mouth? JIM No! SELENA Mark? Jim turns to Mark. He is standing in the middle of the room. Stepped away from the window. The Girl's blood is on his arm - and he is wiping it away... ...off the skin... where a long scratch cut wells up fresh blood. A moment. Then Mark looks at Selena, as if slightly startled. MARK Wait. But Selena is swiping with her machete. Mark lifts his arm instinctively, defensively, and the blade sinks in. Selena immediately yanks it back. MARK DON'T! Selena swipes again - and the blade catches Mark hard in the side of the head. Mark falls. 21. Jim watches, scrabbling backwards on the floor away from them, as Selena brutally finishes Mark off. Selena looks at Mark's body for a couple of beats, then lowers the blade. She picks up a dishcloth from the sink counter and tosses it to Jim. SELENA Get that cleaned off. Jim picks up the rag and hurriedly starts to wipe the Infected's blood from around his neck. SELENA Do you have any clothes here? JIM (fazed, frightened of her) I... I don't know. I think so. SELENA Then get them. And get dressed. We have to leave, now. With practiced speed, Selena starts to open the kitchen cupboards, selecting packets of biscuits and cans from the shelves, and stuffing them into her backpack. SELENA More infected will be coming. They always do. EXT. HOUSE - NIGHT Jim and Selena exit the front door. Jim has changed out of his hospital gear into jeans and a sweatshirt. He also has a small backpack, and is carrying a baseball bat. EXT. LONDON ROAD - NIGHT Jim and Selena walk: fast, alert. But something is not being said between them... until Jim breaks the silence. JIM (QUIET) How did you know? Selena says nothing. Continues walking. JIM (INSISTENT) How did you know he was infected? 22. SELENA The blood. JIM The blood was everywhere. On me, on you, and... SELENA (CUTTING IN) I didn't know he was infected. Okay? I didn't know. He knew. I could see it in his face. (A MOMENT) You need to understand, if someone gets infected, you've got somewhere between ten and twenty seconds to kill them. They might be your brother or your sister or your oldest friend. It makes no difference Just so as you know, if it happens to you, I'll do it in a heartbeat. A moment. JIM How long had you known him? SELENA Five days. Or six. Does it matter? Jim says nothing. SELENA He was full of plans. Long-distance weapons, so they don't get close. A newsagent's with a metal grill, so you can sleep. Petrol bombs, so the blood doesn't splash. Selena looks at Jim dispassionately. SELENA Got a plan yet, Jim? You want us to find a cure and save the world? Or fall in love and fuck? Selena looks away again. SELENA Plans are pointless. Staying alive is as good as it gets. Silence. 23. They walk. Jim following a few steps behind Selena. A few moments later, Jim lifts a hand, opens his mouth, about to say something - but Selena cuts him off without even looking round. SELENA Shhh. She has seen something... A line of tower blocks some distance away, standing against the night sky. In one of them, hanging in the window of one of the highest stories, colored fairy lights are lit up, blinking gently. INT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT Jim and Selena walk through the smashed glass doors of the tower block. It is extremely dark inside. Selena switches on a flashlight and illuminates the entrance hall. It is a mess. The floor is covered in broken glass and dried blood. The lift doors are jammed open, and inside is a dense bundle of rags - perhaps an old corpse, but impossible to tell, because the interior of the lift has been torched. It is black with carbon, and smoke-scarring runs up the outside wall. Selena moves the flashlight to the stairwell. There is a huge tangle of shopping trolleys running up the stairs. Selena gives one of the trolleys an exploratory tug. It shifts, but holds fast, meshed in with its neighbor. Then she puts a foot into one of the grates, and lifts herself up. Shining her light over the top of the tangle, she can see a gap along the top. JIM Let's hope we don't have to get out of here in a hurry. She begins to climb through. INT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT Jim and Selena move steadily and quietly up the stairwell, into the building. Reaching a next landing, they check around the corner before proceeding. Through a broken window, we can see that they are already high above most London buildings, and on the wall a sign reads: LEVEL 5. 24. SELENA Need a break? JIM (completely out of breath) No. You? SELENA No. They continue a few steps. JIM I do need a break, by the way. Selena nods. They stop on the stairs. Jim slips off his backpack and sits, pulling a face as he does so... SELENA What's up? JIM Nothing. She gives him a cut-the-crap expression. JIM I've got a headache. SELENA Bad? JIM Pretty bad. SELENA Why didn't you say something before? JIM Because I didn't think you'd give a shit. A moment, where it's unclear how Selena will react to this. Then she slips off her own backpack. SELENA (going through the bag) You've got no fat on you, and all you've had to eat is sugar. So you're crashing. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot we can do about that... 25. Selena starts to produce a wide selection of pills, looted from a chemist. SELENA ...except pump you full painkillers, and give you more sugar to eat. She holds up a bottle of codeine tablets, and passes it to Jim. SELENA As for the sugar: Lilt or Tango? JIM (CHEWING CODEINE) ...Do you have Sprite? SELENA Actually, I did have a can of Sprite, but... Suddenly there is a loud scream, coming from somewhere lower down the building. Jim and Selena both make a grab for their weapons. JIM Jesus! SELENA Quiet. The scream comes again. The noise is chilling, echoing up the empty stairwell. But there is something strange about it. The noise is human, but oddly autistic. It is held for slightly too long, and stops abruptly. SELENA That's an infected. Then, the sound of metal scraping, clattering the blockade. SELENA They're in. INT. SHOPPING TROLLEY BLOCKADE - NIGHT Two Infected, a Young Asian Guy and a Young White Guy, moving with amazing speed over the blockade. 26. INT. STAIRS - NIGHT Jim and Selena sprint up the stairs. Behind them, we can hear the Infected, giving chase, howling. They pass level eight, nine, ten... Jim is exhausted. SELENA Come on! JIM (out of breath, barely able to speak) I can't. Selena continues, and Jim looks over the edge of the stairwell, to the landing below... ...where the two Infected appear, tearing around the corner. INT. STAIRWELL - NIGHT Selena sprints up the stairs... and Jim sprints past her, in an amazing burst of energy and speed. They round another bend in the stairwell... ...then both Jim and Selena scream. Standing directly in front of them is a Man In Riot Cop Gear - helmet with full visor, gloves, a riot shield in one hand, and a length of lead pipe in the other. The Man lunges past both of them, barging past, where the Infected White Man has appeared at the stairwell. The Riot Gear Man swings his lead pipe and connects viciously with the White Man's head. The White Man falls backwards against the Asian Man. Both fall back down the stairs. The Riot Gear Man turns back to Jim and Selena. MAN Down the corridor! Flat 157! Jim and Selena are stunned, but start to run down the corridor. The Asian Man is coming back up the stairs. Jim looks back over his shoulder in time to see the Riot Gear Man deliver a massive blow to the Asian Man's head. 27. INT. CORRIDOR - NIGHT Jim and Selena run towards Flat 157. The door is open, but as they approach, it suddenly slams shut. JIM AND SELENA (hammering on the door) Let us in! GIRL (O.S.) Who is it? SELENA Let us in! The door opens a fraction, on the chain. The face of a girl appears. She is fourteen, pale, solemn-faced. GIRL Where's Dad? Jim looks back down the corridor. At the far end, the Man appears. He is holding the limp body of one of the Infected - and he tips it over the balcony, where it drops down the middle of the stairwell. MAN (CALLS BACK) It's okay, Hannah. Let them inside. The door closes, we hear the chain being slipped off, then it opens again. INT. FLAT - NIGHT Jim and Selena enter past the pale-faced girl. The flat is council, three-bed, sixteenth floor of the block. It has patterned wallpaper, and nice but boring furnishings. It is lit by candles. The entrance hall leads straight to the living room, which has French windows and a small balcony outside. On one wall, a framed photograph hangs, which shows the Man standing beside a black taxi cab. Next to him is a middle aged woman - presumably the Man's wife. Hannah sits at the cab's steering wheel, beaming. Another photo, beside, show Hannah sat in the seat of a go- kart. The Man follows Jim and Selena inside. 28. MAN Come in, come in. They follow the Man through to the living room, and Hannah recloses the front door, which has an impressive arrangement of locks and dead-bolts. INT. FLAT - LIVING ROOM - NIGHT In the living room, the fairy lights hang in the window, powered by a car battery. Lit by their glow, the Man goes through a careful ritual of shedding his gear, helped by Hannah. First, he lays down the riot shield. Then he puts the bloodsmeared lead pipe on a small white towel. Next, he removes his gloves - and places them beside the bar on the towel. Then he folds the towel over the weapon and gloves, and puts it beside the riot shield. Finally he removes the visored helmet. Jim and Selena watch him. They look pretty rattled, not really knowing what to expect. After the Man has finished shedding his gear, he turns. MAN So... I'm Frank, anyway. He extends his hand to Jim and Selena. Jim hesitates very briefly, then shakes it. JIM I'm Jim. SELENA Selena. Frank beams, and suddenly he seems much less frightening and imposing. If anything, he is just as nervous as Jim and Selena. FRANK Jim and Selena. Good to meet you. And this is my daughter, Hannah. (turning to Hannah) ...Come on, sweetheart. Say hello. Hannah takes a step into the room, but says nothing. FRANK So... so this is great. Just great. It calls for a celebration. 29. I'd say. Why don't you all sit down, and... Hannah, what have we got to offer? HANNAH (QUIETLY) We've got Mum's creme de menthe. An awkward beat. FRANK Yes, her creme de menthe. Great. Look, sit, please. Get comfortable. Sit tight while I get it. Frank exits. Selena, Jim and Hannah all stand, until Selena gestures at the sofa. SELENA Shall we? Jim and Selena take the sofa. Hannah stays standing. FRANK (O.S.) Where are the bloody glasses? HANNAH Middle cupboard. FRANK (O.S.) No! The good ones! This is a celebration! HANNAH Top cupboard. Another short, uncomfortable pause. Hannah looks at Jim and Selena from her position near the doorway. Her expression is blank and unreadable. JIM This is your place, then. Hannah nods. JIM It's nice. Hannah nods again. Frank re-enters. Frank is beaming, holding the creme de menthe, and four wine glasses. 30. FRANK There! I know it isn't much but... well, cheers! EXT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT The moon shines above the tower block. INT. FLAT - NIGHT Jim, Selena and Hannah all sit in the living room, sipping creme de menthe. Frank is disconnecting the fairy lights as he talks, and pulling the curtains closed, rather systematically checking for cracks along the edges. FRANK Normally we keep the windows covered at night, because the light attracts them. But when we saw your petrol station fire, we knew it had to be survivors... So we hooked up the Christmas tree lights. Like a beacon. Finished with the sofa, he sits on the armchair. SELENA We're grateful. FRANK Well, we're grateful you came. I was starting to really worry. Like I say, we haven't seen any sign of anyone normal for a while now. JIM There aren't any others in the building? Frank shakes his head. SELENA And you haven't seen any people outside? Frank's eyes flick to Hannah. FRANK We haven't left the block for more than two weeks. Stayed right here. Only sensible thing to do. Everyone who went out... 31. SELENA Didn't come back. FRANK And there's two hundred flats here. Most of them have a few cans of food, or cereal, or something. SELENA It's a good set-up. FRANK It isn't bad. He puts a hand on Hannah's shoulder, and gives it a squeeze. FRANK We've got by, haven't we? INT. BATHROOM - NIGHT
In February 2020, attorney Joseph Fawbush wrote a piece for Findlaw.com entitled “Good News! People Think Lawyers Have an Average Amount of Integrity Now.”Just average?It's an old cliche. We often deride lawyers, often calling them "ambulance chasers," and it's no wonder given the seemingly never ending plethora of ads for law firms promising big payoffs if you're in an accident or are mistreated in a nursing home.But what's the inside story? Do lawyers really abuse the system when there's a lawsuit that results in a big judgement for the plaintiffs? Do they walk away with most of the money instead of the victims? Remember the famous Blockbuster case in which millions of customers who unfairly had been charged late fees received coupons instead of cash, while the lawyers who presented the case received millions? Filthy rich lawyers, indeed!In this episode of the Lean to the Left podcast, which also appeared on the Justice Counts podcast, legal thriller author/attorney Mark M. Bello and I take a look at this issue. It comes in an interview with attorney Brian Felgoise and co-author David Tabatsky who collaborated to write a new book, "Filthy Rich Lawyers, the Education of Ryan Coleman." It's a sometimes hilarious novel, and the opening scene sets the stage when a young, ambitious lawyer, Coleman, decked out in his best suit and fancy shoes, is dressed down by the judge for falsely claiming that his $250,000 share of a settlement would not come out of the plaintiff's piece of the pie. That scene draws you in, and as a reader, you're hooked.The attorney author, Brian Felgoise, is a graduate of Temple University Law School and has been practicing class-action law for more than 25 years, including cases where billions of dollars have been recovered for class members who lost a significant amount of money.David Tabatsky has authored, co-authored and edited many novels, including The Boy Behind the Door, Friends Like These, The Marijuana Project, The Battle of Zig Zag Pass and Drunk Log. His memoir, American Misfit, was published in 2017. Tabatsky was consulting editor for Marlo Thomas and her New York Times bestseller, The Right Words at the Right Time, Volume 2. Here's a sample of some of the questions asked and answered during the interview:Mark: There are a lot of great one-liners in the book. Here's one that sums the whole thing up: “It's a dirty job, and someone's got to do it.” Does this book play into every terrible stereotype of lawyers, or does it have something complimentary to say?Bob: In the book, there are multiple examples of lawyers receiving fees way out of proportion to the plaintiffs' recoveries. I remember the Blockbuster litigation where the litigants each got a 5 buck coupon and the lawyer's made millions. Are lawyers paid fairly in these cases or does the system need a fix?Mark: On the other side of the equation, as the book points out, you have multiple evil companies, Enron, Halliburton, Charel, Perdue Pharma, FenPhen, Big tobacco, and others, that kill, make sick, or screw people or the government out of billions. With lives and billions of dollars at stake in these cases, fees should be large for all that hard work and the recovery of all that money? A class action is really the most expedient way to resolve cases like this, true?Mark: I loved the Haliburton no-bid contract whistle-blower story in the book. That is a true story, right? Lawyers did a good job on that one, didn't they? Then you've got Enron, where lawyers received $688 million, 5 times their billable hours. Shouldn't a judge check that, as the book points out? In the book, you use the example where a painter quotes $400 to paint the house. The homeowner offers him $2,000. Should he refuse the money? Who would refuse? Should lawyers police themselves? Bob: Here's one of those quotes Mark talked about, from a big shot lawyer in the book: “I do not give a shit about Class Members. You hear me? I am only concerned with the riches I develop from the practice of law.” Is this a stereotype or true? Are there any lawyers out there who do what they do to help people or is it all just a money grab? Mark: The book is very funny. I went to David's website. As a Jewish boy myself, I enjoyed all his schtick, especially the fact that he performed magic and comedy at bar mitzvahs. I presume he's the one with the sense of humor, but is Brian funny too?Bob: Here's another big shot quote in the book: “I have the greatest practice of law in the world because I have no clients.” How can you have a practice with no clients? Is that possible in real life? Mark: Coleman and Waterman (one of the experienced guys) share an older lawyer, younger lawyer moment. The same thing happens with Coleman and Smalley, later in the book. The quote I want to point out is: “Do not speak unless spoken to.” Also, Smalley calls Coleman “son” in one of the scenes. I remember, early in my legal career, I've got a small case with this older hotshot, and he says to me: “Son, let me give you a lesson in the law.” I declined. We tried the case, and I kicked his ass. Were these situations based on real experiences in your life?Mark: And how about Coleman's initial go around with the judge? I loved it. We've all been there. A judge who goes out of his or her way to try to humiliate a young lawyer in front of his client. Very similar to the older lawyer, younger lawyer situation. After she puts on a show for the voters, she signs the order. So typical, right?Bob: Brian: How much of you is in Ryan Coleman? I don't want to ruin the book for anyone, but do the big boys succeed in corrupting him, or “educating” him as the book refers to it?Bob: And what about the world of $375 million yacht and $16,000 bottles of booze, and expensive hookers for class action lawyers. Fact or fiction?Mark: I think it was Smalley who said: “You see, Coleman, when I establish my position, no matter what it is, I will fight to the death. I'm not ever going to give up.” Is that really what it takes to be successful? No names, but is he based on a real lawyer?Bob: Another line in the book: “Practicing law is the opposite of sex. Even when it's good, it's bad.” Do you believe that, or is it just a funny line in a novel?Mark: How much of the story or the anecdotes in the story are true? How about the one where the senior partner comes in and finds a bag of shit on his desk? True?Mark: And the federal prosecutor wanting to take down Hollis and essentially blackmailing Coleman to do it. Is that based on fact?Mark: After making all that money in the class action world, why did you need to write a book? Don't you have all the money you need? Share some with David. Bob: How can people find you and your books?Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lean-to-the-left-podcast--4719048/support.
In February 2020, attorney Joseph Fawbush wrote a piece for Findlaw.com entitled “Good News! People Think Lawyers Have an Average Amount of Integrity Now.”Just average?It's an old cliche. We often deride lawyers, often calling them "ambulance chasers," and it's no wonder given the seemingly never ending plethora of ads for law firms promising big payoffs if you're in an accident or are mistreated in a nursing home.But what's the inside story? Do lawyers really abuse the system when there's a lawsuit that results in a big judgement for the plaintiffs? Do they walk away with most of the money instead of the victims? Remember the famous Blockbuster case in which millions of customers who unfairly had been charged late fees received coupons instead of cash, while the lawyers who presented the case received millions? Filthy rich lawyers, indeed!In this episode of the Lean to the Left podcast, which also appeared on the Justice Counts podcast, legal thriller author/attorney Mark M. Bello and I take a look at this issue. It comes in an interview with attorney Brian Felgoise and co-author David Tabatsky who collaborated to write a new book, "Filthy Rich Lawyers, the Education of Ryan Coleman." It's a sometimes hilarious novel, and the opening scene sets the stage when a young, ambitious lawyer, Coleman, decked out in his best suit and fancy shoes, is dressed down by the judge for falsely claiming that his $250,000 share of a settlement would not come out of the plaintiff's piece of the pie. That scene draws you in, and as a reader, you're hooked.The attorney author, Brian Felgoise, is a graduate of Temple University Law School and has been practicing class-action law for more than 25 years, including cases where billions of dollars have been recovered for class members who lost a significant amount of money.David Tabatsky has authored, co-authored and edited many novels, including The Boy Behind the Door, Friends Like These, The Marijuana Project, The Battle of Zig Zag Pass and Drunk Log. His memoir, American Misfit, was published in 2017. Tabatsky was consulting editor for Marlo Thomas and her New York Times bestseller, The Right Words at the Right Time, Volume 2. Here's a sample of some of the questions asked and answered during the interview:Mark: There are a lot of great one-liners in the book. Here's one that sums the whole thing up: “It's a dirty job, and someone's got to do it.” Does this book play into every terrible stereotype of lawyers, or does it have something complimentary to say?Bob: In the book, there are multiple examples of lawyers receiving fees way out of proportion to the plaintiffs' recoveries. I remember the Blockbuster litigation where the litigants each got a 5 buck coupon and the lawyer's made millions. Are lawyers paid fairly in these cases or does the system need a fix?Mark: On the other side of the equation, as the book points out, you have multiple evil companies, Enron, Halliburton, Charel, Perdue Pharma, FenPhen, Big tobacco, and others, that kill, make sick, or screw people or the government out of billions. With lives and billions of dollars at stake in these cases, fees should be large for all that hard work and the recovery of all that money? A class action is really the most expedient way to resolve cases like this, true?Mark: I loved the Haliburton no-bid contract whistle-blower story in the book. That is a true story, right? Lawyers did a good job on that one, didn't they? Then you've got Enron, where lawyers received $688 million, 5 times their billable hours. Shouldn't a judge check that, as the book points out? In the book, you use the example where a painter quotes $400 to paint the house. The homeowner offers him $2,000. Should he refuse the money? Who would refuse? Should lawyers police themselves? Bob: Here's one of those quotes Mark talked about, from a big shot lawyer in the book: “I do not give a shit about Class Members. You hear me? I am only concerned with the riches I develop from the practice of law.” Is this a stereotype or true? Are there any lawyers out there who do what they do to help people or is it all just a money grab? Mark: The book is very funny. I went to David's website. As a Jewish boy myself, I enjoyed all his schtick, especially the fact that he performed magic and comedy at bar mitzvahs. I presume he's the one with the sense of humor, but is Brian funny too?Bob: Here's another big shot quote in the book: “I have the greatest practice of law in the world because I have no clients.” How can you have a practice with no clients? Is that possible in real life? Mark: Coleman and Waterman (one of the experienced guys) share an older lawyer, younger lawyer moment. The same thing happens with Coleman and Smalley, later in the book. The quote I want to point out is: “Do not speak unless spoken to.” Also, Smalley calls Coleman “son” in one of the scenes. I remember, early in my legal career, I've got a small case with this older hotshot, and he says to me: “Son, let me give you a lesson in the law.” I declined. We tried the case, and I kicked his ass. Were these situations based on real experiences in your life?Mark: And how about Coleman's initial go around with the judge? I loved it. We've all been there. A judge who goes out of his or her way to try to humiliate a young lawyer in front of his client. Very similar to the older lawyer, younger lawyer situation. After she puts on a show for the voters, she signs the order. So typical, right?Bob: Brian: How much of you is in Ryan Coleman? I don't want to ruin the book for anyone, but do the big boys succeed in corrupting him, or “educating” him as the book refers to it?Bob: And what about the world of $375 million yacht and $16,000 bottles of booze, and expensive hookers for class action lawyers. Fact or fiction?Mark: I think it was Smalley who said: “You see, Coleman, when I establish my position, no matter what it is, I will fight to the death. I'm not ever going to give up.” Is that really what it takes to be successful? No names, but is he based on a real lawyer?Bob: Another line in the book: “Practicing law is the opposite of sex. Even when it's good, it's bad.” Do you believe that, or is it just a funny line in a novel?Mark: How much of the story or the anecdotes in the story are true? How about the one where the senior partner comes in and finds a bag of shit on his desk? True?Mark: And the federal prosecutor wanting to take down Hollis and essentially blackmailing Coleman to do it. Is that based on fact?Mark: After making all that money in the class action world, why did you need to write a book? Don't you have all the money you need? Share some with David. Bob: How can people find you and your books?
Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com S3E31 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the wonder science based paganism. I'm your host mark. Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: And today we are celebrating the autumnal Equinox, which goes by various other names. I like to call it harvest myself. And the. The holiday is one of the roughly equivalent length of the day and the night around the 20th of September. And so it's a time when we celebrate many metaphorical meanings of that. And we also observe a lot of what's going on in our natural environment. At this time, as in the Northern hemisphere, we moved from summer into. Into the autumn. So we're gonna be talking about that today and celebrating the holiday, Yucca: Right. And as always, it's just amazing that we're here already. Mark: right. Yucca: is just, just flown by. So, Mark: It really has. It's. Well, it's extraordinary. I mean, a as you know, Yucca, I've been unemployed now for almost 14 months. Yucca: wow. Mark: And I mean, on the one hand, it seems like all the time in the world, but on the other hand, it's like, well, that's kind of flown by in a way it's involved a lot of struggle, but it's. leading to some good things. Now that I'll talk about later on. So I'm, I'm feeling like this is the harvesting season. It's the time when I'm, you know, reaping the benefits of stuff that I've had in the ground for a long time and have really been working to tend. Yucca: Hmm. That's exciting. Yeah. So for us, and we should mention being in the Northern hemisphere, this is the autumn for us. Although we do see that there are quite a few of you listening from the Southern hemisphere. So for everybody in the Southern hemisphere, it's the other side of the wheel, Mark: Happy Yucca: So happy spring. But for us to September. We're talking about how fast the year goes, but September seems to just really fly by for, with us starting September. It's still summer by the end of September, it's we're full in autumn. It's winter's right at our doorstep, right? It's a, we get a very kind of short autumn and it's says, Nope, here we are. It's fall. And this is actually one of my very favorite times of the. And I know a lot of people really, really love this time, but let's actually start with what is this holiday often represent in the broader pagan community. And then we can get into our individual practices and, and observances around it. Mark: Sure. That sounds great. Well, traditionally, this is viewed as the second harvest of the three harvest festivals. The first being the holiday at the beginning of August which is. The grain harvest and so beer and bread and all those kinds of things. Well, this is the second harvest and it it's often conceptualized as the overflowing corn utopia of vegetables, right? The vegetable gardens are pouring out all of the winter squash and the tomatoes are still really going. And there's all these Yucca: zucchini. So many zucchini Mark: so many zucchini, same numbers of zucchinis. You've got, you know, people door ditching zucchini to everyone else. And so it's a time of a great abundance of food. Much of which is perishable and is not really gonna last into the winter. And so traditionally it was a time when you ate a lot, right? You, you, you put as much, you stored as much of that stuff as you could, like the winter squashes and so forth, but what you couldn't, you ate, you put on your body as, as much as you could in order to kind of fatten up for the winter. Yucca: Right. This is also the, the time of year where they're the most babies born. So you would think that it would be pretty evenly distributed throughout the year, but we actually see in the August, September, right in this area, right before we're going into the, the season is really switching into that cold time when we see a lot more births. Mark: that kind of makes sense. Because if this is the time of year, more than any other this in the ne into the next couple of months, when food is really abundant, right? So it makes sense that the time when you would be having births would be the time when mothers could be as nourished as possible. And there would be as good a shot as possible for the babies to survive into the next year. Yucca: Right. And when you count backwards to the time when you're feeling horrible and having terrible morning sickness, it's the time of the year when there's the least food. Anyways. so you're okay. Right. Mark: Never thought of that, but Yucca: the, yeah, it's, it's how it works. It's so, you know, we, we can forget sometimes in our modern world, how part of. The rest of nature, we really are. Right. We really are seasonal creatures that have figured out some clever things in the last hundred years or so to, to help us kind of forget that. But, but this time of year is, is, is lovely because it is a reminder that no, this, whether we like it or not, the season is changing and might as well like it and embrace it because it's happen. And it's it just feels like this tipping point time period. Mark: It, it does. It feels, I was saying before we started recording, it feels kind of like the hinge of the year. There's a lot of preparation that has to happen before winter starts in earnest. For, and for me, This time of year is always a time for sort of taking stock of the last year's cycle. You know, what were my dreams? You know, of my, my dreams from UL, my plans from From brightening at the beginning of February, you know, how did I implement those and how are they going? And is there something to harvest from those now? This year I'm, I'm hopeful. I, I believe I have a job I will know in about a week. but I believe I have landed a job, which was, will be a wonderful position. And I'm happy to talk more about it. Presuming that it happens. I'm also. Most of the way done with writing the second book, the second athe paganism book and Yucca: which is a publish. Mark: which as a publisher, yes, loyal and worldwide is publishing it. And I have to deliver a manuscript at the end of November, and I'm still figuring out what the last 10,000 words are going to be. But Yucca: But you've done a huge, I mean, you've done all the other words, so you've done a huge chunk of Mark: I'm at 45,000 words now. So that's, that's a lot, there's a whole lot there. And it's involved a lot of days of sitting at a desk with a laptop, just tapping away and researching and pulling things in from other sources and synthesizing ideas. In, you know, as, as I see them. So it feels like this fall will be a, a real time of. Of accomplishment. And the, the completion of some, some long held dreams which kind of goes along with my other conceptualization of this holiday. We've talked about this before, how I map the arc of a human life onto the wheel of the year. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: Uh, this holiday is the holiday of being elder. so it's sort of the moment of reflection about, okay, well, I'm kind of at the end of this, but What has, what has life been like? What, you know, what have I learned? What have I experienced sort of running your fingers through all those amazing moments of your life. And so I don't think of myself as elderly quite yet, but I still see that process happening for me this year with the, the things that I'm harvesting. So I, I find that exciting. Yucca: Hmm, that's Mark: How about you? How do you celebrate this time of year? Yucca: Well, this season terms of how, how we see the wheel of the year this is the celebration of the decomposers. This is the, the fun guy and the microbes. And of course there are microbes involved in. All parts of the cycle. Right. But, but the, the, the little ones who are just breaking things down and, and getting the, the compost ready and that, again, that shift that we're talking about, and it's really the, the entering into fall or autumn and getting now is time to be getting things. Right. That's a big getting things ready for the winter and it's just, you know, winter's coming, winter's coming. We can feel it in the air now. It's still hot during the days. And the monsoon season is just finishing up, but you can feel that chill and it's okay. Well, do we have enough firewood? Let's start stacking that and. Our, our solar panels, we switch them. Cuz this is there's no, there's no grid out here. Right. We're way too far away for that. And so, you know, we've gotta switch the, the panels, the angle now it's like, oh, okay, let's start. You know, we've had 'em down since the sun has been so high in the sky that, but now it's starting to, we can tell it's it's moving down on the horizon. We gotta move those panels up to be able to catch that light. And. BA all that buttoning up. Right. Okay. Are there cracks that need to be sealed? And what do we have to worry about for this? Not gonna survive the cold? What do we need to bring in all of that kind of stuff? And it's just a, a lovely, it's a lovely time of just shifting and transitioning and, and there's a nice anticipation, but there's kind of a calmness to it. Mark: Mm-hmm yeah, there's a Yucca: Satisfaction like what's done is done. Mark: and there's sort of a stillness, especially to early autumn. In my experience, we don't get very much wind here at this time of year. In the evenings when the heat finally dies down the it's just sort of very mild and there's. There's this kind of it's something in the air. There's. Sort of presence in the air that I feel at this time of year. I'm reminded of it by our wind chimes. There's just something about the wind chimes, faintly tinkling in the little bit of air movement that's going on. That reminds me that it's fall. The other thing that I hear a lot at this time of year is. Single crickets instead of a huge chorus like you have in the summertime, there will be one or two crickets outside kind of doing their thing. And it's in the, the warm late, late, late summer night. And it, it really reminds me of this time of year going back all through my life. Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. You say that and I go, yeah. We have that too here. Right? It's the, and there's a, there's a different quality to their, to their song. Mark: Yeah. Well, almost all their fellows have been eaten by now. Yucca: yeah. So if they're there Mark: Yeah, if they're there although if they still haven't made it, then that, that's why they're, that's why they're doing their, their noise. Trying to find somebody to hook up with at the very last minute. But I mean that deafening chorus of crickets that you get in the, you know, at the peak of summer is long gone by now. And it's just a few holdovers that are, you know, kind of holding down the Fort there every night. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah, I have such a fondness for this time of year. I just, even though we don't. Changing of leaves very much until later in the year, because it's gonna stay warm for us until October. know, we'll have, we'll have days in the high eighties and early, you know, low nineties even into October. But we may get a rainstorm or two between now and say November, Yucca: And when is your, when's your first frost? I mean, not till later, Mark: January. Yucca: Okay. Yeah. So you, you really don't get much in terms of frost Mark: Well, we've got that huge buffering Pacific ocean right near us. So that keeps it warmer. The air has to get very, very cold coming in from the east, from, from landward and, and the north in order to drop us down into those frost temperatures. And really it's mostly at the bottom of valleys most of the time, unless we get an Arctic storm. Yucca: yeah. Mark: The Arctic storms will put a little snow on top of the Hills sometimes. And, that can be pretty yeah, but this time of year is once again it's, as you say, it's an anticipatory time. This is the time when everybody cleans their gutters because they don't, when, when the rains finally come, they don't want them to be jammed up and overflowing and doing damage to their houses. Yucca: right. Mark: All of the vegetation has started to slow down. So, there's much less in the way of mowing and so forth, which I'm thankful for. Not because I do mowing, but because I have to listen to it and Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I, I'm not, I'm, I'm such a non of lawns and all that they represent. Yucca: We don't have lawns here, but when I have visited them, I quite liked the smell of the cut grass. Mark: it's Yucca: That's a lovely, yeah. Mark: That's the smell of spring to Yucca: Mm. Mark: having grown up in suburbia. When, when the when the lawns are no longer swamps, Yucca: Okay. Mark: And, and can actually be mowed Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: um, long about March or so. That's when you can start start mowing the lawns and it's a wonderful, you know, spring smell to me. So yeah it's a little early for me to focus on decomposition. I do that later in the year around halls and then kind of going into, I, I think of decomposition and recomposition in new form as kind of taking place between halls and But I'm in a very different climb than you are. I mean, we're just, we're not gonna freeze for a long time and when we do, it's not very much, Yucca: Yeah, by the time we get to hollows are we've already been freezing for several weeks at that point. So we, I mean that still, it still has that decomposition theme, but now it's, it's, it likes to get started when it's still warm. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: enough, you know, you've got enough of your mixes of the greens and Browns and, and also for us, we're coming out of, we don't get a lot of moisture. We get maybe 12 inches in a good year, but we haven't done that in the past two decades since we're in this, you know, mega drought. But with, after the monsoons is when we do get the mushroom. And so we'll get the popup of the mushrooms or you'll turn over a log and you see the MyUM and and you know, we get the warnings every year because we have several mushrooms that you definitely do not want to eat. Just a reminder of know what you're doing, everybody, because we've got a few here that, Mark: As Yucca: really don't want to try. You won't make it to the nearest hospital. That's two hours away. Mark: As the late great Terry Chet once said all mushrooms are edible. Some mushrooms are only edible once Yucca: Right. Yeah. But of course, most, I mean the vast majority are, are, you know, not a problem. They're just, there's a few that are, but you know, they're, they're popping up and they're just doing, and all of that is just getting ready to do its thing because we have the moisture, we're getting the chill nights. It's not baking and, and throughout the winter, It'll slowly, it'll slow down, but that decomposition is happening down there in the soil. It's happening underneath the pine needles, you know, it's, it's working away. So Mark: Yeah. Oh, there was something else. What was it I was gonna touch on. Oh this is a big time of year for feasting. Yucca: yes. Mark: Because of all that, all that garden production and all that perishable food that you, you gotta get into yourself and share with your neighbors before it goes bad. Yucca: Get put up if you're doing drawing or canning Mark: do any of those Yucca: do. Yeah. Mark: preservation processes, this is the time and around here where I am. You know, people are canning apples and, and making apple sauce and apple butter and all that kind of stuff from our apple crop and the the, what we call the crush, which is the grape harvest has started. It's always, you know, right around this time of year, starts in late. August and extends into early October. So that's a very seasonal thing as well. If you drive around the rural roads in the west county, they all smell like, like wine. They smell like rotting grapes, right? So, so it's a good time to have a feast, you know, invite your friends you know, focus on local produce and, you know, local, local food stuffs. I was I was mentioning when, before we started to record that this is when the salmon run. One of the, one of the salmon runs comes up the Russian river in our local area. And so we will have fresh local salmon here available, which is delicious. And sustainably farmed or sustainably caught wild caught. It is part of an industry that is doing a lot to conserve and improve riparian habitat and breeding grounds around here. So I, I feel that's an important thing to support. Yucca: Yeah, that's really important. Mark: Yeah. I mean the salmon runs of north America and they still are in Alaska, but the salmon runs of the California and Oregon and Washington coasts used to be millions and millions of fish. There are reports of tributaries to the Russian river during spawning season where you could walk across the tributary without getting. Feet wet because there were so many spawning salmon in these creeks and of course development and deforestation, tation, and climate change, and all those things have had a huge impact, but they're still living runs. And so this it's something that we like to appreciate this time of year. Yucca: Yeah. Oh, that sounds wonderful. Mark: Yeah, it is. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: So, We wish all of you the, the best of the season really invite you to go out and find out what's growing locally, you know, find out, you know, what does your neighbor's garden have in it? Yucca: Yeah. Mark: See what, what stuff is coming up, check out the farmer's markets they're overflowing right now. It's a great time. Yucca: This is also a time where, where folks are often cutting back herd numbers. So that's another one can get as well. Yeah. Mark: right. Yeah. Traditionally that's sort of more associated with, with Hallows, with the October holiday as the, the so-called flesh harvest, but realistically speaking, I think you're right. I think it's probably earlier in the year uh, Yucca: it really? Yeah. Well, and this is when you get, you know, if you, you. Talk to the rancher and you kind of figure out there, this is when they're figuring out, okay, what do we, you know, taking account? What, what do we have? What are, what are we gonna need to get through the winter? Mark: How many, how many of these animals can we get through the winter? Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: if we try to get them all through, they're all gonna starve. So, you know, hard decisions have to be made, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And. You know, cycle of life. So it goes. Yucca: And that's, you know, each point in the wheel of the year there. There's something going on. Right. And oftentimes there's an overlap, right? We talk about the, in the spring, we're often talking about these, this planning and this anticipation. And yet here we are in the autumn thinking about the anticipation. And yet we're planning for winter, right? In the spring. We're planning for summer and the fall. We're planning for winter and then the winter's for the next year. And it's just all overlapping and continuing and continuing. Here we get to be our little moment getting to be part of it with everybody else. Right. Mark: Right. And that's one of the things that I really appreciate about this time of year is that because I think of it as a reflective time, you know, the, the, the time of culminations of harvests it, it does give me a chance to sort of sit back and, you know, look at where I've, where was I? Where was I? 12 months ago. And how has that changed? And, you know, how do I feel about how I spent that time? What did I learn? You know, what would I, what do I wish I had done differently? What am I really glad I D I did that. I didn't think I was going to like all those things, right. A a life reflected on is a life well lived. Yucca: Well, we'd also love to hear from all of you, if there's special traditions that you have this time of year or anything that you wanna share with us, we always love getting your getting your emails and feedback. So Mark: And you know where to find us the wonder podcast cues at. Yucca: Gmail. Mark: Yes. Yucca: And that's QS. Mark: QS, gmail.com. And we would love to hear from you. Thank you so much for your comments and your, your questions and your topic suggestions. We appreciate all of them. Yucca: Happy autumn, everyone. Mark: Happy sol-Equinox! Sorry.
With inspiration from Mark McGuinness, you'll integrate poetry into your writing life as a pleasurable practice that elevates your prose. In this interview, Mark describes the vision for his podcast and his own poetic beginnings, and he urges writers (and readers) to simply enjoy poetry. You'll see ways poetry intersects with and impacts prose—you can even play a literary game he describes at the end. Learn from Mark: How a mouthful of air is a perfect image for poetry and podcastsHow can we translate metaphor into our other forms of writing (without being weird)The metaphor that comes to his mind when describing himself and his writingHow poems "mug" Mark and he drops everything to chase them like leprechaunsThe importance of getting input on your work and finding a writing mentorPlus, play his writing game (bring your prose)! Listen to episode 245 and check out excerpts in the transcript below. You'll be inspired by his warm, encouraging advice. If his subtle persuasion succeeds, you may embrace poetry as the next step in your literary journey. Meet Mark McGuinness Mark McGuinness is a poet based in Bristol, UK. On his poetry podcast A Mouthful of Air he interviews contemporary poets about their writing practice and draws out insights that can help any writer become more creative, expressive and memorable. Mark also takes classic poems apart to show us how they work and what we as writers can learn from the examples of poets including Yeats, Shakespeare, Thomas Hardy, Chaucer and Edward Lear. Links: Visit amouthfulofair.fmListen to A Mouthful of Air on Apple PodcastsTwitter: @amouthfulofairInstagram: @airpoets https://youtu.be/bu0LwCeNlQw Mark McGuinness Interview This is a lightly edited transcript. [00] - Ann Kroeker With inspiration from my guest Mark McGuinness, you may find yourself integrating poetry into your writing life as both a pleasure and a practice. I'm Ann Kroeker, Writing Coach. If you're tuning in for the first time, welcome. If you're a regular, welcome back. I'm sharing my best tips and training skills and strategies to help writers improve their craft, pursue publishing and achieve their writing goals. Today I have Mark McGuinness on the show, a poet from Bristol, UK. On his poetry podcast, A Mouthful of Air, Mark interviews contemporary poets to discover their writing practice and draws out insights that can help any writer become more creative, expressive and memorable. Mark also takes classic poems apart to show us how they work and what we as writers can learn from the examples of poets like Yates, Shakespeare, Thomas Hardy, Chaucer and Edward Lear. Listen in on our conversation. [00:54] - Ann Kroeker I am so excited to have Mark McGuinness on the call today on our show and we are going to talk about a lot of different things related to the creative life, the writing life, even the poetry life. Mark, thanks for being on the call. [01:09] - Mark McGuinness Thank you. It's lovely to be here, Ann. [01:12] - Ann Kroeker I am looking forward to learning more about how you approach your own creative life and how you use and enable poetry to be part of what feeds your creative life, how you inspire others with poetry, because that seems to be a big part of your life. Can you tell the listeners and viewers, can you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do? [01:37] - Mark McGuinness Sure. I am a poet living in Bristol, in the southwest of England, in the UK. I've been writing poetry quite a while and in my typical group of friends, I'm usually the one who reads poetry. I've always been quite aware that most people don't read poetry most of the time. There are a lot of people who are very literate, very well read, very avid readers, but who will generally read anything but poetry. And to my point of view, it's not that hard. I think a lot of people get put off at school,
TITLE: Death by Chocolate TRACK: John Blow - An Ode on the Death of Mr Henry Purcell: I. Mark How the Lark and Linnet Sing ARTIST: Jonathan Cohen, Samuel Boden & Arcangelo, Thomas Walker PUBLISHER: 2017 Hyperion Records Limited
TITLE: Death by Chocolate TRACK: John Blow - An Ode on the Death of Mr Henry Purcell: I. Mark How the Lark and Linnet Sing ARTIST: Jonathan Cohen, Samuel Boden & Arcangelo, Thomas Walker PUBLISHER: 2017 Hyperion Records Limited
Magdalena Bay has been working in business development for eight years now. She is an expert in the MVNO market, but outside of work, she loves spending time with her kids and showing her golden retrievers at dog shows. In this episode, Magda educates us on how Mobile Virtual Network Operators (MVNOs) work, especially with how Mobile Network Operators (MNOs) and MVNOs price their offers. Why you have to check out today's podcast: Learn what the MNO and MVNO are all about; Understand how MNOs and MVNOs provide value to their customers; and Find out how pricing works in the MVNO market “You need to give time to your customers so they can adjust to the new models you are trying to introduce. And maybe, sometimes, the strategy that you're implementing won't work in the beginning, but if you just wait little by little, then it can bring the results.” – Magdalena Bay Topics Covered: 01:45 – How Magda got into pricing 02:10 – Learning how Mobile Network Operators (MNOs) and Mobile Virtual Network Operators (MVNOs) work 07:21 – Why pricing in the MVNO market is interesting 09:27 – Sample scenarios of how MVNO provides value to customers 11:34 – How pricing in MVNO works 14:26 – What it means to play on a breakage when you're in the MVNO market 16:20 – Magda asks Mark: “How do you approach your consulting when you're in a totally new industry for you?” 18:18 – Does Mark have plans of getting experience from other countries and industries? 23:14 – Magda's piece of pricing advice for the listeners Key Takeaways: “Pricing here is extremely difficult, in the sense that obviously, some of the customers wants to have everything the cheapest possible way. And in this setup, the infrastructure and building, everything cost your investment. You have to get your return on this investment. And as you mentioned before, MVNOs are always competing with these big boys, with MNOs, so this is almost impossible to be on the same pricing level.” – Magdalena Bay “Assuming that you would get also unlimited plans from the MNO, you are very limited on how much you can earn, because you are only limited to this, let's say, two zloty per bundle or two euro per bundle – just any number I'm saying now – and you can't grow on this, if you know what I mean.” – Magdalena Bay People / Resources Mentioned: AT&T: https://www.att.com/ Verizon: https://www.verizon.com/ Orange: https://www.orange.com/ T-Mobile: https://www.t-mobile.com/ Free: https://www.free.fr/ Teleco: https://www.teleco.com.br/ Affinity Cellular: https://www.affinitycellular.com/ Airvoice Wireless: https://www.airvoicewireless.com/ Assist Wireless: https://www.assistwireless.com/ Beast Mobile: https://beastmobile.net/ Connect with Magdalena Bay: LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/magdalenabay/ Email: baymagda@gmail.com Connect with Mark Stiving: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stiving/ Email: mark@impactpricing.com
May Celebrations That Aren't About Sex: https://atheopaganism.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/may-celebrations-that-arent-about-sex/ How's that Maypole Thing Work?: https://atheopaganism.wordpress.com/2018/04/22/hows-that-maypole-thing-work/ https://theapsocietyorg.wordpress.com/community/ Beltane 2020 Episode: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/its-beltane/ Beltane 2021 Episode: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/beltanemay-day/ S3E15 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm one of your hosts. Yucca Mark: and I'm the other one, Mark. Yucca: and today we're talking may day Beltane second spring, all of those, whatever name you call it. Mark: Yay. Summer is a coming in. And winter's gone away. Oh Yucca: It is, I, we were just saying, this is actually our third may day episode that we'll be doing. Mark: Yes. Yucca: So we'll put the links to the other ones. If you want to check those out as well for inspiration and things like that, we'll probably talk about a lot of the same things this time around is that's one of the things about it was cyclical holiday year, right? We come back to some of the same themes each year, but hopefully there'll be some new things in this episode as well. Mark: Sure for sure. Especially because you know, now at this particular moment, we are in a place where we're sort of gingerly, tentatively coming out of COVID. Yucca: I think we've said this so many times. Mark: I know, I know. And who knows? I mean, there, there could be another variant that. Pigs the needle again, but I really hope that this around this time, when it seems that the numbers are generally low, people can have gatherings in person And, celebrate because in most places in the Northern hemisphere, the weather is beautiful and it's just a really lovely time of year. Yucca: And, and it's a holiday that is often associated with outdoor activity. Unlike say the winter solstice where it's a lot of it's about being bundled up and inside and cozy and sharing drinks with each other. And. You know, Mark: right, Yucca: has more of an outdoor, you know, in the park bonfire, those of you who live near the beach. Bet, that would be amazing know fire on the beach. Maybe that would be wonderful, but yeah. Mark: The. The image that I have in relation to Mayday or Beltane . And we're going to talk about naming in a minute has to do with emergence into the outdoors. It's like, you know, we've spring arrives in at different times in different places based on climb in elevation and, and All of those different factors. But by the beginning of may, mostly. It's comfortable to go outside and there's this kind of exuberance about getting out from the walls and, you know, out into the sun and experiencing the bright new leaves of the foliage and All that wonderful stuff. So it's just, there's a, there's an enthusiasm about this holiday that I really love. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So let's talk about names cause we've got a bunch of them, the the, the word bell team, which is used by most of the pagan community to, to designate this holiday. And we'll talk about what defines the holiday in a sec comes from the Irish bail to. Which is actually just the name of a month. It's the name of the month of may. And there's a similar word in Scott's Irish as in Scott's Gaelic as well. And both of those are often used as You know, kind of placeholder for the beginning of may holiday. But I don't actually use those Celtic names myself because I don't. Yucca: You don't have a specifically Celtic practice. Mark: I I don't. And and I also deliberately sort of stripped cultural references out of my practice when I started doing atheopagan ism, because I wanted to avoid any possibility of cultural appropriation, which we're going to talk about in a future episode. And and I wanted there to be kind of a blank slate for people to create their own new traditions and symbols and all that kind of stuff. Yucca: Sure and add, add to it. What is part of what's meaningful to them? Mark: Yes. Yucca: Right. Yeah. And no, and not saying at all that there's anything bad or wrong with any of the Celtic stuff. I mean, that's a big deal for my family. Right? We were, we identify as Celtic American, you know, we, we speak one of the Celtic languages. Actually my daughter was really interested in learning Irish because that was her grandpa's first language when he was little and in the home. When she was given some choices about what do you want to learn now? She didn't want to learn mom's language. She wanted to learn graph is language. So she's been learning it. And I'm in the background. I've been picking up on it a little bit. Right. Which is really very, quite fun to see the differences between the languages. So. So just to emphasize to everybody, this is not in any way of saying like, oh, like the Celtic side is bad or whatever. It's like, no, we're just saying, you know, everybody's going to be different. Their backgrounds are going to be different. My family happens to have a strong connection to that side of, of, of our heritage and, you know, for other people that's not their heritage or not a part that they connect with. Right. And that's totally fine. But the name Beltane is, is used pretty. Widely and much of the kind of Neo pagan community. Mark: Right. And, and it bears saying that we need to acknowledge that new modern Neo paganism, mostly stemmed from. You know, Gerald Gardner in the 1930s and forties and early fifties. And so it CA it was kind of a UK Britain, England centric. Yucca: Yeah, well, he was English. Mark: he was English. And so that was the lens that he was looking at everything through. And a lot of what we have inherited from those traditions is very Anglocentric, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: but paganism in and of itself inherently in terms of a relationship with the earth and and a ritual practice. That's key to the seasons of the year that, that. It's everybody and it has no language and it there's no particular culture that, that slotted to. So here's this holiday and it's defined as the mid point between the spring Equinox and the summer solstice. So it's. Yucca: It's the other side from, from Salween or Mark: Or Hallows. Yucca: So, yeah. Mark: exactly. So, and there are lots of cool parallels that you can do with those opposite sides of the year where built-in is often associated with sexuality and kind of life and vitality and fertility and all that kind of stuff. And Hallows is associated with death and decomposition and fallow fields and all that kind of stuff. Right. So you've got the, kind of the polar ends of the, the human experience happening there. So what are some other names that we use? I, I say may day, which is a little problematic, because what if you're celebrating? Not on May 1st. Yucca: Right. There's made a, and there's also the association. I usually say Mayday as well or second spring. But there's the labor. Wright's association with may day as well. That comes up for a lot of people, which I think was a, was purposeful. And the, when that was chosen. But for some people they don't who aren't part of the pagan community. They don't know the pagan association and they only have the, the labors rights Mark: Right, right. There's an interesting thing about international worker's day, which is May 1st which is that the United States deliberately put its workers day at the end of summer. In order to avoid engagement with those socialists and communists who were celebrating international workers' day on May 1st. So we have our labor day on the first weekend in September and nobody else does, but when those holidays were being defined like today there was a lot of fear around, you know, communism. So that's, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: how it happened. So, Yeah. Mayday or a second spring is another good one. I know that that's how you celebrate your, your holidays in terms of first and second seasons for each, each quadrant. And so let's talk a little bit about, you know, what the themes are and, and how we celebrate it. And then talk about some specific ritual things that we can do. Yucca: All right. Well, there's definitely. Like you were talking about this coming out, this emergence, this, you know, waking up around it. For us, we think about it a lot as well for the annual plants, because this is the time where. You're getting the gardens going. I mean, our last for us usually isn't until the 15th, we'll still have a couple good frosts. And of course the fruit trees that aren't from this area are all blooming already. And going here we are. You know, zapped by another frost. But we definitely associate it with, okay, here are the, the annual plants that are coming back, the things that we're planting in the garden and the the flowering plants and all of our, you know, our Forbes and things like that. And the color. So it's still kind of blend. Sometimes the holidays blend a little bit. The last one for us was more about the birds and the feathers, but there were bright colors with that. And then coming into this, more of the colors and just again, that, that awake, that youthful that, you know, here we are, Mark: Yes, everything's so, so fresh and new and sex is everywhere that trees and plants are all kind of hanging their parts out there saying, come and get me. And it's, it's just a very vital, very central kind of time. The air is perfumed in many places with the smell of all the different kinds of flowering plants. We just had Yucca: clouds of Paul and the go by Mark: Yes. Yes, exactly. Yucca: clouds Mark: Yeah, you can't can't help, but get it all over you. And if you have allergies, it's miserable. So it's, you know, it's a time when the world is really vital and even in desert climates, the world is really vital. I mean, the, the desert is palpably green. When you look out after the rainy season and, and after the snows have melted and you can see that things are really genuinely green they're there. They're not like tropical green, but they're definitely. Is Yucca: like it does after winter? Mark: I'm sure. Yeah. Where it's black and white Yucca: Oh yeah. Mark: it. Yucca: Yeah. Even so even in places or even, especially in places in brittle environments, there's just such a change between one season to another. Mark: Sure. Yucca: just, the more you tune into it. I noticed for me every single year, I mean, I've lived in other places, but I came back to where I'm, where I'm from. Even growing up here every year, I noticed something different and new despite by being out and hanging out outside and just paying attention. Mark: Yeah. There's I mean, life itself is opportunistic, right? Life, life is always looking to worm its way into whatever niche it can find in order to thrive. But right now there's so much opportunity for so many different kinds of organisms and they all kind of pop at once. And so you get this, this feeling of genuine exuberance and delight. From from the world, you know, everything's doing its thing and seems pretty happy about it. So, you know, that may be me anthropomorphizing my plant environments, but there's a, there's a. There's a way that that it seems enthusiastic. I go back to that word again and again Beltane or Mayday. Isn't an enthusiastic holiday. And in, in my wheel of the year, I associated a lot with young adulthood. Where there's lots of energy things are brand new and you're kind of trying them out because, you know, oh, wow, look, I've got these leaves which I didn't have right. A month ago. I've got all this, this new agency as a young adult, I can make decisions for myself. I, I have power that I didn't have before. I have autonomy that I didn't have before. And so I'm going to experiment. I'm going to try new things. I'm going to. Make friends I'm going to connect sexually and explore myself and find out what works for me and how that whole dynamic works with other people. So it's there's, there's just a lot of, of of, of trying and getting it done happening around this time of year. Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely feel that too. Mark: So, it's a glad time and it's not a surprise to me that the Christians decided to put their Easter right around this time, because there is a general feeling of. Of thankfulness for having gotten through the winter and have joy in the beauty of nature as it's blooming in front of us, that comes at this time of year. And while their themes are a little bit different in terms of salvation and resurrection and all that kind of stuff. The resurrection piece works well with dormant plants coming back to life and all that the salvation piece. Pagans don't have anything to do with, we got nothing to do with that. Yucca: At least most of us don't, there's, you know, there's a lot of different kinds of pagans. Mark: That's certainly true, but the, but the joyfulness, you know, there's a, there's a sense, even in the Christian Canon of this kind of joy and relief, right? Oh, we've been saying. Hooray. Whereas, you know, we don't feel like we need to be saved from anything but freezing and starving to death as pagans, but but we're really nonetheless that we didn't starve to death. Yucca: I like that sun being higher in the sky. That is great. We got a lot of sun here, but it was getting a bit much in the winter. The winter lasts a bit long. Mark: Yeah. There's something about February, especially, that's Just really, really rough. It just, Yucca: ah, let's keep rolling. Mark: Yeah. it, it won't last forever, even though it feels like it's already lasted forever. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, shall we go into some ritual things that we can do or what our practices are? Yucca: So, I mean, before we go into specifically rituals, are there types of things that you're doing this time of year, just that, or are your sort of may day-ish season things that you do? Mark: Well, I like to get flowers in the house. And we just had our wisteria bloom along our back fence. And that of course smells delicious. And it's these beautiful cascades of purple blossoms and they're there they're mostly done now, but they were just so pretty when, when they were Yucca: months ahead of us. Ours here will not flown for another few weeks probably. Yeah. Mark: So there, there was that, and we've got roses blooming, and we've got Calla lilies, and there's an, there's a beautiful. purple Iris. That's growing in one of our wine barrels right now. So there's just. You know, paying attention to all that. Once again, we come back to paying attention, but really acknowledging, wow, it's just awfully good to be here. And there's a lot of beauty around that's, that's really the primary thing for me for this, this holiday, that, and I feel my body waking up. I, I have a higher sex drive. I have a Bigger appetite. I, I feel, and I, I'm kinda antsy about sitting around, I, I wanna leave the house and go and do things and all that kind of stuff. So, there's, there's just this kind of, I don't know, coming out of hibernation and being hungry, sort of quality to it as well. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: How about you? Yucca: Well, it's a busy time of the year for us. And a lot of it is the focused on, again, not just going back out, we always change out colors in the, in the house. And that's kind of a gradual process of changing. I mean, it's the sort of thing we'd be doing anyways. The types of curtains we've got up during the winter are different than the ones we've got up in during the summer. And you know, changing out what's on the couch and all of that. And this year it's been quite fun because this is our. First like real season where we're at. And so we planted in the fall, we planted a bunch of perennials and I'm seeing which ones made it because that's one of the things of making it through that first winter. And I took some chances with things. This is not from our climate at all, but I thought I'll give it a shot. I have, there's a couple of little microclimates on our property. And so I tried some Papas, some American Papas and I'm going okay. So they, you know, they feel, find them in like, you know, New York, upstate New York, which is colder than us and they survive there. Mark: right. Yucca: So three of the five I planted made it. Right. So that's, you know, We'll see how they feel about our summers, but Mark: Right. Right. And they may, and they, may be a bit thirsty too. They may, they may want a lot more water than your desert plants. Yucca: Well, I plan to do them in an area that gets that has some it's for us, a wet area drains into it. Yeah. And then it's so fun every year because the kids are getting older and coming into really being like people now. And my daughter's just making up all kinds of holidays. Right. And the reptiles are. So we've decided that we spent the winter learning about the different mammals in our area. And now we decided it's time to learn about the different lizards that we have. And there's all kinds of lizards that are here. And there's a whole bunch that I'm going. I don't know how I'm going to tell the difference between these three species. Cause they all look the same. You're telling me there's a little red dot behind one of their ears. Okay. So, That again, just that sort of bringing the spring in and bringing the humans out. Right. The humans out of that house, we're living half outdoors again. So yeah, Mark: Nice. Yes. So. So why don't we go into some specific rituals that we like to do around this time? One of the things that I do when I, you know, seasonally redecorate my, my focus, my altar is I have some ribbons that are from a maypole dance that I did years ago. And there's a, there's a portion of a tree branch. That's. My focus sits up about 10 inches high. And so I drape, I've tied them together at one end and I drape these ribbons over the top of this branch so that it becomes like a little maypole. There. And we also have embroidery hoops that we have glued ribbons, colored, colorful ribbons around the top of, so, and then we cut them off. Three feet long or even longer. So what you end up with is this ring that you can hang from a tree and it's got all these beautiful ribbons hanging down from it that wave in the wind. And we put those in the, in the foliage outside as well, Yucca: Oh, lovely. Mark: So it just kinds of create some thematic stuff around it. Yucca: Yeah, we, we put ribbons, we've got a specific tree that we like to put things and, you know, we put little like, you know, Christmas bulbs and things like that in the winter. And then we put some of the ribbons out. And then we go out and untangled them because they get very tangled. Mark: Of course. You do Cloudy's do you know. Yucca: What are Cloudy's Mark: Cloud, is there an Irish tradition? I think, I think, or it may be a Scott's tradition. I'm but I seem to remember it's an Irish tradition and they are cloth that you hang in a tree and particularly with wishes for health, Yucca: Mm. Mark: and they, you know, various colored clogs and that kind of thing. So it, it sort of creates a prayer tree. Yucca: Okay. So like a prayer flag tree kind of. Okay. Yeah. We haven't done that, but that's a lovely idea Mark: Yeah, I like it. I like it too. And then of course there is the classic, which is the maypole dance. We will put a link to a blog post that. I have@atheopagan.org called how does that maypole thing work? And it's, it's step-by-step instructions for how to do a maypole circle. Maples are just so much fun there they're really joyous and dancing around one with a partner with, you know, all these couples with ribbons going in the opposite directions and weaving the ribbons up on the pole. Yucca: Bumping into each other. Occasionally. Mark: into each other a lot, Especially as you get closer to the pole, cause your ribbons are winding up and they're getting shorter and shorter. And you know, there's always music playing and it's just a very joyful, happy kind of time. And I have many memories of going to, built-in or may Mayday gatherings, you know, people where they're colorful clothing and it. It's just a really, really sweet spring celebration and a very old tradition of course may have existed in, not just in England, but also in other parts of Europe, continental, Europe, Yucca: in the Northern areas, which sometimes they're associated more with solstice, Mark: Yes. Yes. In Sweden. I know they do a maypole things that summer solstice. And that may just be Because it's, you know, Yucca: Because that is Sprig Mark: that is spring that's when it finally just gets warm enough to get that hooray. We're going outside feeling. Yucca: and hopefully it'll be on a weekend. Mark: Yes. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Well, and if it's not, then you just push to the next weekend. I mean, Yucca: well, that's what we do. We use it like you were saying at the beginning that, you know, maybe it's not going to be on May 1st week kind of just do it around this time of year when it works for everybody. Mark: Right, right. Because it would be really disappointing if half the people you wanted to come, couldn't make it. Just because you insisted on doing it on a Wednesday. The other thing to bear in mind when it comes to, you know, being diligent about doing things exactly on the day, That's great, but bear in mind that the actual midpoint between the Equinox and the solstice is actually around May 7th. So. I consider May 1st through May 7th to be the week of may day, the week of Mayday or the week of bell pain. In the same way that Hallows is from Halloween to about November 6th or seventh, depending on the year. So, you know, give yourself a break. Don't. You know, force yourself to do something that creates a lot more insertion and trouble. It's okay to wait till the weekend to do something that, that you want to have a gathering with. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I'm excited because The, the atheopagan community created a new program earlier this year called affinity groups. And those are groups that are, that share geographical affinity or that have some sort of identity or interest connection. So there's an LGBTQ group and there's a crafters group and there's a neuro-diverse. Diverse group and an activist group, but there's also groups that are in different geographical areas. And we have one for Northern California that is now called live Oak circle. And we are meeting in person at one of our houses to do a Mayday gathering on, on May 1st. And I'm really excited about it. I think it's going to be a really Nice. time. Yucca: That's great. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: And all, you'll be seeing some of those folks again and another, the next weekend, in fact, Mark: Yes, one of them, one of them will also be at the century retreat. Yucca: Yeah. So just a plug for that. I think that the day this comes out is the last day for registration, right? Mark: That's right. Yucca: the 25th of April. Yeah, because we need to know who's going to be there so we know how much food to have. Right. Mark: Right. Exactly. So, when you hear this podcast, if you hear it on Monday, the first, if you are still thinking about coming, please at least contact us through the, the contact email on the century re. Page to let us know that you want to come. You can, we'll work out getting your registration completed over the next couple of days, but we need to know that you're coming. And how many are in your party? Yucca: Yeah. We just need the count of what's going to be there or not. Yeah. Mark: because it's only, it's three weeks away. Yucca: Yup. Mark: We're in three weeks. We're going to be there. Yucca: Yup. Mark: And the whole, the whole thing just seems preposterous to me. I mean, I haven't left the state of California in a long time now And Yucca: either actually the last place I went was Colorado Springs was Colorado Springs or w w for the baby moon before my oldest was born six years ago. We went there cause it was the closest borders Mark: really? Yucca: bookish people. Yeah. We were like, Hey, let's go somewhere and spend the night somewhere. Cause we're never going to do this again for like 18 years. And what do we want to do? I want to go to a bookstore. Yeah. I want to go to a bookstore too. So we have lots of little bookstores as well, but we wanted one that was a little bit more like. Like wandering through a big library. So that anyways, yeah. That's the last time I've been out of state. It's been a while. Mark: Yeah. well, you know, there's been COVID and you've had kids and there's, there's all that stuff. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, yeah, it's it's going to happen so soon now I'm really, I got to go to my storage unit and get out of suitcase and all this stuff. So. What else do we have to say about Mayday and oh I we're, we're developing a re a relatively large list of things to put in the in the episode notes, but I do want to put in also, I have a blog post about may celebrations that aren't about sex. Yucca: Okay. Nice. Mark: So for people who, you know, are, are a sexual or a romantic, Or Yucca: Or do you want it to be a family thing and it's not appropriate for the particular people in the family right Mark: Right. Or they just aren't into it, you know, whatever that is. There's some ideas there for things that you can do to celebrate this time of year. So I want to Yucca: That's a great, yeah, because it really doesn't. I mean, I like the sex part, but it doesn't have to be about that. Mark: That's Right. Yucca: There's plenty of, of reawakening and all of that stuff that doesn't have to doesn't have to be it. Mark: Absolutely. And as always, we're working to be as inclusive as we possibly can. This non theist pagan science-based paganism path is something that really is open to everyone and not just in a tolerance sense, but in a true welcoming sense. We want you to have a practice. Really works for you, you know, that feels moving and meaningful and gives you a sense of place in the world and a sense of purpose in living. So that's, that's the thing. So what else do we have Yucca: You know, I think I'm just feeling happy about it being spring. Mark: Me too. Yucca: that's what I have to say. Spring awakening being outside color the bugs coming back, got all kinds of interesting things out. That's that's what's going on for us. So. Mark: Yep. That's what's happening here too. And we, we really love it. So, I got to get out on a trail. I haven't actually gone hiking for quite a while and I really want to do that. So I've got to, got to get myself going soon. Yucca: Good time for that. Mark: It is so happy spring everyone or summer, if that's the way you count it, which we didn't really talk about. But many people consider the cross quarter holidays to be the beginnings of the seasons instead of the solstices and equinoxes. Which is why summer solstice is called midnight. Often and the winter solstice is called mid-winter. But it just depends on how you count it. Calendars are arbitrary. Yucca: they are. Yeah. I mean, for where I am, the seasons are not equal. Winter and summer are really long and we have like a few weeks of spring and a few weeks of fall. And then. You know, we basically have winter and summer. I mean, there's nuances, but really just jumps right in. Yes, June is not spring for us. For some people, June a spring, but June is like not Judas 90 degrees. So yeah. Well, anyways, as we were saying, just happy spring or happy summer, everyone. And for those of you, cause we do see that there are quite a few of you listening in the Southern hemisphere. So the other way around, happy bottom for you. Mark: Yes, and I'm happy Hallows or solemn, meaningful Hallows, and be sure to look in the in the podcast archives for our has episodes, because you can certainly use all of that stuff for your celebration here in may as well. Yucca: Great. And is there a Southern hemisphere affinity group? Mark: There is yes, it's small right now, but there is a Southern hemisphere affinity group. Yucca: Yeah. So definitely check that out if Mark: Yep. if you're interested in joining an affinity group, you can. go to the atheopagan society website, which is the AP society.org, the AP society.org forward slash community. And that will take you to the page that lists all of the affinity groups. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Okay. Well, thank you so much, Yucca. It's been a pleasure as always. Yucca: Thank you, mark.
Welcome to another "Ask Matt Anything" edition of the Purple Patch Podcast. Matt answers your voicemails and emails on all topics related to training and performance. In this installment, Matt answers your questions related to: Prepping for a wetsuit legal swim when you don't have access to open water In the spirit of the Purple Patch ethos, “evolve or die,” how have Matt's books evolved? Handling stress and overwhelm Dialing in bike cadence when racing How to factor bike commuting into your training plan Not only does Matt answer the questions, but in true Purple Patch education-style, he explains the why behind his advice so that you understand and can best apply it to your own personal toolkit of performance. Episode Timestamps 0:00-09:45 Welcome and Episode Introduction 09:45-The Meat and Potatoes 09:50 -Question 1 from Mark: How to get ready for a wetsuit legal swim when you're unable to get into the open water prior to the race In the weeks leading up, you should be doing (and let's make it up), you're going 15 times 100 to a certain effort. Do it where you sight three to four times every single lap. Now at the start, that's going to slow you down. But your goal over many weeks is to start to narrow the delta between non-sighting swimming, and swimming where you're adding in sighting. And you can only do that by improving your technique. 18:02 - Question 2 from Frank: I'm wondering like with your statement “evolve or die” over the last few years - there's probably been a lot of changes to your own programs. How has the book changed? Some of the ways that we built the plan has changed a little bit - it's a little bit more dynamic. I would say, globally, we tend to stray more towards higher frequency running right now. And a higher percentage of that running been low stress. We've really amplified the intensity and strength endurance component of biking and even the way that we integrate some of our swim sessions has evolved. Finally, a huge shift is in the broader world around nutrition and fueling. To be honest, the paradigm has shifted and it's very, very different. 26:10 - Question 3 from Victoria: Feeling overwhelm as life returns to “normal.” Back to work, kids to school, long commutes, etc. and the stress is piling up. How best to handle this overwhelm while still balancing a training schedule? Stress is more complex and nuanced, because yes, unchecked and unmanaged, the accumulation of too much physiological or emotional strain can be really harmful. But perhaps paradoxically, it is exactly that strain, challenge, navigating adversity, that pressure, which is essential for anything that you care about - for your body, and your mind, to grow, to evolve and develop. So strain and demand is really, really important. 35:30 - Question 4 from Richard: How does a bike commute fit into the overall arc of my training schedule? Use it as a relief, a little bit of a bridge from the work day to going home…It is genuinely a little a bit of “me” time...I'm going to do it for myself, I'm going to enjoy it. It's soul filling, and I'm not under any real pressure to get stronger fitter, more powerful. 41:50 - Question 5 from Matt: If lower cadence is more of a natural strength, does that mean I should race at a lower RPM say 80 to 85 than the 90 to 95 I've always targeted in the past? When you go outside and you come up against a grade or a hill, or you've got wind in your face, it's a useful and smart tool to shift into generally a lower cadence. On the flipside, if you've got the wind at your back, or you've got a downhill, you might see power drop a little bit lower, but you're gonna shift to a faster cadence. And finally, if you want to vary the load, the postural load, you want to shift the muscle group, you might go lower or higher, depending on when you're at. And so it becomes a tool box. Ask Matt Anything! Head to the Podcast Page at PurplePatchFitness.com/podcast and leave a concise question for Matt. Tell us your name, where you're from, and ask your question. We'll get to as many as we can in future episodes. Purple Patch and Episode Resources This episode is sponsored by our collaboration with INSIDE TRACKER. Inside Tracker and Purple Patch- Receive 20% off their services with code: PURPLEPATCHPRO20 Ask Matt Anything - Leave a voicemail question for Matt Purple Patch Swim Sighting Video Purple Patch Blog for Free Training Resources and Education Learn more about Purple Patch Squad High-Performance Training Program Join Bike Squad - Don't just exercise and work out; learn to train with our structured online cycling program Join Run Squad - Increase your running performance through our progressive, multi-sport approach to running Purple Patch Training Camps - Education, Skills, Community Learn more about Purple Patch Fully Customized 1:1 Coaching Learn more about Purple Patch Strength Programming Purple Patch Swim Analysis Stay Up-to-Date with Purple Patch News and Events Purple Patch Upcoming Webinars and Events
Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com White Wine in The Sun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCNvZqpa-7Q S2E22 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host Mark. Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: And it is time for Midsummer. It is the summer solstice coming up and we're going to talk about that today. Yucca: Exactly. So. What it is to us in our particular bioregions and our particular practice. And just about it in general. Mark: Yeah. I mean, this is one of those holidays that doesn't actually exist in the over cultures calendar of holidays. The, the, the winter solstice is pretty well-represented by all of the various winter salts to see holidays that happen around that time. But with the exception of the American Memorial day, we don't really have anything that Yucca: Cool. 4th of July, sort of. Mark: Yeah. Okay. Yucca: Yeah, I think 4th of July. know it's a little bit later, but it's still kind of in that same time of year summary, holiday Mark: Yeah, enjoy, enjoy the long evenings. That kind of thing. Yeah. You're right Yucca: but it's still a stretch Mark: right. It's not Yucca: I mean, Christmas and winter solstice right there. Right. Mark: And it's not like in some European countries where Midsummer is a big deal and you have all kinds of traditions that go along with that. Yucca: Who is, is it son, Juan they're in primarily Catholic countries. There is a St stay which involves a bonfire. On the solstice. And sometimes there's a tradition of the students burning their old papers and things like that at the end of the year to celebrate that the, that. the semester, the year's over. Mark: Okay. I wasn't aware of that, but that's very interesting. Yes. I mean, this is another fire holiday very closely associated with building a big fire, which frankly I think is just an another excuse to build a big fire. I mean, people. People don't need much of an excuse to build a fire and have a big party around it. But this is another one of those. So we're going to talk about how we conceptualize mid summer or the summer solstice what we call it, how we envision it in the cycle of the year, the wheel of the year and the various cycles that we track. How that may vary from bioregion to bio region what kinds of rituals we do in our practices and that we're aware of that other people might do and stuff like that. So let's dive in. Yucca: Yeah. So question number one. Is it actually mid-summer for you? Mark: Yes, Yucca: it is. Okay. Mark: It is, I consider the beginning of summer to be the Mayday holiday. And yeah, that's just so that the names Midsummer and mid-winter will otherwise they don't work. Yucca: But in terms of, in your bioregion region, your climate, has it been summer for awhile? Mark: oh, yes. Yucca: Yeah. Okay. Mark: Yeah. For quite a while. And the, the transition in my region is very noticeable because all the Hills go from being green, to being gold, all the grasses die. And so, you know, you have this kind of golden brown color instead of the green of the winter growth. And that happens right around may day. So, it begins right around may the eighth. So that's kind of the beginning of summer and it extends and it's completed. The Hills are completely brown except for the green Oak trees. By the time we get to the summer solstice. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: How about you? Yucca: Well, definitely not. Mid-summer as in the mid point of summer for us, this is the beginning of summer. We, I live at a very high elevation, so dry, dry desert, but high desert. So 7,000 feet, I think that's a little over. 2100 meters somewhere in that range. So very high up. So really summer press doesn't begin until June to beginning of June is the beginning of summer feel. The last week of may, may be may is one of those months that can really go either direction where it's literally freezing the night before. And then it's very hot the next day. So this is the start of summer. And we've got a very, very short growing season, but this is when things really are getting into their groove in terms of the life coming back from the dormant period from the new life emerging. And it's a very brief period that we have in the middle of the year where we might have some green. We don't, we're, we're gold most of the time of the year goals and lots of red earth and all of that. And if we're lucky, it has not been the case for a while now, but this is the beginning of our monsoon season two. So the monsoons, really will pick up a little bit more, you know, fingers crossed in, in the coming months of, so June, July, August, it's been being pushed back a little July, August, even into September. But when the rains come is when the life that's just been hiding in gray and down below, just pops up into existence just into visibility. And so. There definitely isn't a sense of maturation yet, but everybody's still, everybody's getting into the groove. Right. And finally we're out of the, the freezes. So, but you still got to take a sweatshirt with you wherever you go, because it'll drop being high up. We'll drop back down into the fifties or so at night, usually. Mark: And you consider that cold. Yucca: Well, if your day was 90, Mark: Well, that's true. Yucca: right? If you were at 90 and then you went down to 50, but no, in the winter we get down into the teens, we get freezing and very cold in the winter, but it, but it's a pretty big drop between, you know, you're in a tank top during one part of the day and then putting your sweater on for the rest of the day. So. Mark: huh. Huh. So, how do we understand this holiday in terms of the cycles of the wheel of the year? What is, what is its place? In our, in our. Symbolic understanding of it in the, the ritual celebrations that we do. Yucca: Hm. Yeah. Well, one of the things we've talked about before is our different approaches to. The wheel of the year. And for me, that approach, I'm looking at the seasons and then the holidays being the midpoint of those seasons is kind of the celebration as a representing different ecosystems or types of life, which are really, really critical for our own survival and for our, our experience of. The biosphere, which of course is much huger than, than we can even begin to imagine. We just live on this very thin little layer and we only occupy a very small part of that layer anyways. But the first summer is about. The arthropods for us, it's about the insects and arachinids and myriapods and all those little jointed legged beings with their armored shells and lots of celebration, especially for the honey bees and the ants and all of those little creatures. It's that time of busy work that they are doing. Mark: I, on the other hand tend to, I tend to think of the wheel of the year in two different dimensions. The first of which is the more kind of Wicca consistent, traditional understanding of the wheel of the year as the agricultural cycle. Right? So the holidays reflect food production at different times of the year. And. In the case of this particular holiday that makes this the holiday of doing nothing. This is the holiday of leisure because everything's planted, everything's growing. Nothing's ready to harvest yet. And it's time to just kind of sit around with friends and drink some beer and have a barbecue and, and go to the beach and just enjoy those long, comfortable days. And I consider those to be sacred activities at this time of year. It's it's important to have a time when, you know, you're just taking it easy. And, you know, storing up some energy for when you're going to have to work like crazy to bring the harvest in later on Yucca: Mm. Mark: the other dimension that I think of the wheel of the year along is kind of mapping the arc of a human life. So I think of birth as being equivalent to the, the birth of the son, the coming back, the return of the sun, starting at the winter solstice. So what, by the time you get to the summer solstice, you're kind of in the fullness of adulthood, right? I'm not. Not the sort of urgent, energetic learning, still kind of wide-eyed young adulthood of, of Mayday or bell Tane, but established, you know, building a family building career the, the kind of adulthood where you can enjoy agency. Right. You're, you're fully empowered to do all the things, you know, because you're well past 21 and now you get to make choices and you have to make choices and it's a time to just sort of reflect on, you know, what's it like to have power. What's it like to be able to make those decisions for ourselves and to plot out what we're going to plant, what we hope to harvest so forth. So, this summer solstice is a time of year when I honestly have fewer kind of formal rituals because the rituals are things like lying in a hammock with a Mohito. Yucca: Sounds like a great ritual. Mark: yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I think it's a very good thing for you. And so that's, that's the sort of thing that I look to do at this holiday. How about you? Yucca: Well, I think partly because what's happening in our climates is so different. It definitely is not a leisure time for us because it really is still that beginning. You're still getting. In the annual cycle, you're still getting the plants in the ground, right. You're still working it's that there and in the agricultural cycle. I mean, our cycle, our growing season is so short. I don't know. Perhaps people who live in a longer season might have more time, but there's never a time that you're not doing anything except the dead of winter. Right. That's but the rest of the time of the year, you're busy as can be with what's going on. But when it comes to the celebrations, it's for us, one of the really big times of the year. So it's up there in, in the celebration and awareness around it, as much as the winter solstice is. So it's like these two halfs of the year for us, the winter solstice and the summer solstice which we have playfully Called Hafmas. So there's Christmas and then Hafmas, which is, haf is Welsh for summer. And we use a lot of Welsh in the, in the home, but when you write it in English, it's H A f because the F is just, just a single V it's only if it's two F's. So it looks like half, like half the year. the split of the year and half. So the, the half year celebration. And so there's, it's also the time of year that we're outside at night a lot, even though the night's short compared to other times of the year, it's just so much more pleasant to be out. In the middle of the summer, around a campfire, looking at the skies and, and in the next few coming weeks, we're going to have some wonderful meteor, shower opportunities and all of that. And then we also do gifts this time of year as well. So we do gifts both sides of the year and the kids are really into that. Mark: I'm sure. Yucca: yeah. Mark: Well, that's great. So it does seem like there are some commonalities. I mean, it was interesting. I. I was reflecting when you were talking about how other than the dead of winter, you really don't have a dormant time in, in terms of planting and agriculture. And it occurs to me that where I am is so benign that people actually grow gardens through the entire winter. They they'll grow winter squash and leafy vegetables and stuff like that. And you know, maybe you get tagged by a freezer too, and you lose some stuff, but certainly in a greenhouse you can grow stuff all year round with no problem. Yucca: Have we talked about it before you and like a zone nine or. Mark: I don't know what zone I'm in, honestly. Yucca: You mentioned, you could get away with what most people would call a fall garden or a spring garden Mark: Oh, for Yucca: during the winter where you've got your, like you're saying your leaf fees and your, all your brassicas and things like that. Mark: Yes, absolutely. And people do and you know, they're, they're putting in tomatoes by April Yucca: Hmm. Mark: and Getting tomatoes by July, right. You know, the early tomatoes. So, you know, the kind of a traditional meal for us around this time of year is the caprese salad response Sorella and the really good, fresh heirloom tomatoes and the basil leaf. And then you drizzle it all with olive oil and balsamic vinegar, and it's just awfully good. Really really good. And just super, you know, fresh that's, that's kind of the quality of everything right about now, you know, peaches are coming into coming into ripeness right about now. And there's, there's nothing more than the taste of a peach. That is the summer to me. Yucca: Yeah. Oh, oh, that just makes me hungry thinking about it. And I like the texture on the outside, the little, little bit of fuzz as you bite into Mark: Yeah. Everything about Yucca: underneath it. Yeah. Mark: Perfect. Peach is about the ultimate food. If there really were a thing that was the food of the gods, I think it would be a perfectly ripe peach. Yucca: Yeah. Now they're in the, for us, they're in the grocery stores, but none of our, our fruit trees are bearing yet. Mark: Okay. Yucca: Right. There's some that survived are late. Frosts have got their little, little green fruits just starting to grow that are about the size of a gumball right now, but we won't get those fruits for another month, at least on the earliest of them. Mark: Wow. Yucca: So Mark: Wow. And, and, and that's, that's probably like plums and cherries, like those kinds of fruit or. Hm. Yucca: Well, we get a lot of the stone fruit do fairly well. Mark: Oh, good. Okay. Yucca: The apricots are the ones that do the best and in my particular area, in fact, there'll be so many, we get those little tiny ones that people are asking you to come take them away because they drop and they make all those, the little squish. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. And then we, you know, apples and some Of those ones do very well. But everything has to be adapted to being in a very dry condition, dry, and then the very cold in the winter. So it's kind of both extremes. Mark: Sure. And I imagine you you have a lot of competition from birds and other wildlife for the fruit. Once it becomes edible Yucca: Yes, certainly. So, I mean, there's a lot of things that you can do tricks the, the birds aren't so bad. Depending on where you live in, in the area where we are now the biggest problem with having an orchard is that it attracts bears and the bears will try and climb into your tree and they'll break your tree to get to your Mark: Right, right. Yucca: the birds, you can usually you discover like a branch or two, and then they're pretty good at sharing, but the, the bears not so much Mark: Yeah. Yucca: havoc. Yeah. Mark: So how about rituals? Why don't we talk about some of the rituals that we might do at this time? I do have one that I do every year. There's actually an article about it on the atheopagan ism.org blog. I have a broom that I call a sun broom. And it's a handle made from Oak, a piece of Oak that I found in a nearby state park. And I bind, I cut wild oats, long, tall, wild oats every year and bind them onto this handle to make a broom. And they leave that out in the. Summer solstice sun all day long until sunset. So it soaks up all the sun. Right. So then if in February, when I'm feeling really kind of discouraged by the darkness and lack of light and all that, I can take that out and wave it around and feel better. Yucca: Yeah. that's great. Hm. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Well, we don't have any specific rituals like that quite yet. I think that maybe over the years, those might start to develop some for me, it's always been just this moment, taking a moment for the awareness. And of course like to S to set my alarm just for the moment of the actual solstice which of course could come at many different times of day, depending on the year. But, but long walks if you have a labyrinth or can make a labyrinth nearby, I think that there's just something about being out in the middle of the hot. If you're taught where you are, but the middle of the long summer solstice stay and taking that, that moment set aside, just to be aware of the, the continual cycle that conduct continual progression. We also Put up and it's evolving every year, getting more and more complex. But kind of like a summer Garland that has the big looks like a honeycomb almost cut out. So it looks like so instead of having like a, like a tree that we put up the celebration and put, you know, B related art and big cutout, The arthropods and spend some time studying the, the, just watching, like, if you've got a nearby little ant mound or big outman Mount, those are just hanging out with them for a little while. Mark: That's great. I was just remembering something and now it has left me again. What was that? Yucca: it was a Garland related. Or Mark: It wasn't either of those. Probably my ADHD brain went just somewhere else on something that only, that must be related in an associated way, but I could never track down what the path was. Yucca: Was that moment? solstice. Mark: I like to do that too. I like to know exactly when it's going to be an observed that that's happened as well. Oh, I know what I was going to say. This year is actually going to be a really special celebration for the summer solstice on the 20th because my ritual circle is going to get together in person. For the first time since COVID and I'm really looking forward to that. It's going to be just amazing to see everybody. Yucca: How wonderful. That's great. Mark: Everybody's vaccinated. And Yucca: Yeah. Mark: over to my circle. Brother's house in Napa, and we're going to drink a bunch of wine and eat seared meat. Yucca: Sounds great. Yeah. Yeah. That, that the community and this sense of, and that in person ness of the community is really that's wonderful. Mark: So meanwhile, elsewhere in the world on, on the other half of the world it's coming up on the winter solstice. And we thought we'd talk about that for a minute. Maybe contrast what's happening there. You know, for our friends that are in the Southern hemisphere Yucca: just a reminder on that. There's often a missed perception that the summer solstice is when the earth is closest to the sun. And that's not the case. There are some planets that have very elliptical orbits in which their seasons. Are caused at least in part by the distance from the star, but that's not the case with ours. Ours is caused because of the tilt of our planet relative to our orbit around the plane of our orbit around the star. So it's going to be reversed depending on which hemisphere you're on for one hemisphere, it's going to be the summer solstice for when it's going to be the winter and the other way around. Mark: right, right. Yeah. So, because the earth has now tilted the Northern hemisphere towards the sun where we get more direct sunlight and longer days. The opposite is Yucca: our position is such that we are tilted in that way, the earth isn't within a human timescale, wobbling back and forth. Mark: no, not at all. It's it's processing around around a tilted axis. Yeah. So meanwhile, in places like south America and South Africa and Australia and New Zealand they're coming up on the winter solstice. Which is I would imagine a little frustrating for those that follow more traditional pagan paths because they get bombarded with all this stuff about you know, it's summer, it's summer solstice. It's Letha, it's, you know, in, you know, here's all this, here's all this, this stuff about, you know, Holly Kings and goddesses and Kings and all that kind of stuff. That makes no sense for where they are at all. But if you strip all that stuff out Yucca: I was going to say the folks in Brisbane, I think they've been having a really cold snap for what they typically have this time of year that, you know, they're putting on sweaters and that's quite unusual for that area. Mark: huh. Yeah. Yeah. So, Yucca: And of course, the other side of the year, too, when, when the Santa clauses out and yet it's the middle of summer, Mark: Right. Yucca: summer solstice was Santa Claus and reindeer. Mark: Which in gendered, my favorite Southern hemisphere Christmas song, which is called White Wine in the Sun by Tim Minchin. And it's a very moving song and it's also a non-theistic song. Not just in the sense of not having any gods in it, but it's, it's like goes into his disinterest in in theistic stuff. He's, he's very funny, but also very moving it's. We'll we'll put a link to the YouTube video in the, in the notes. It's a wonderful song. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Let me see. Yucca: So mark, have you ever spent any time in the Southern hemisphere? Mark: I haven't, I've never been south of the equator. Yucca: I have not either. It's it's a dream. I want to go and. And see the other half of the sky and the other half of the earth. Mark: yeah, me too. I'm particularly interested in Africa and south America. For some reason, I don't know, Australia has always struck me as being so similar in many ways to the American west that I just haven't. I mean, culturally, obviously not, it's obviously totally different. But in terms of the geography and the land shapes and the aesthetics and that kind of thing, it just looks very similar. So it hasn't drawn me as much. Yucca: You know, interestingly, it's one of the places I'm very drawn to. I'm very, you know, I am very happy with where I live and it's home, but that's, you know, and when people ask, oh, well, if you had to move somewhere, right, where would you go? And even never having been there, there's just always a, well, well, I Really loved the look Of the Outback and of course. there there's a lot of different areas, but there's just something about it that just calls me Mark: Oh, Yucca: and weirdly Greenland as well. Very, very Mark: Really, really attracted to Greenland Greenland and on, up into Cape Breton and those kind of far Northern Newfoundland, those far, far Northern areas in Canada. I'm also very attracted to along the Atlantic seaboard. But I think that some of that may just be, because there's so much contrast from where I am here, you know, I, I just, I like to go somewhere where things are really different, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: and experience what that's like. Yucca: Well, I talked about this before, but we do have an invitation out to folks who anyone who'd like to come on and talk about their wheel of the year. That is, you know, from a Southern hemisphere perspective or a tropical perspective or, or, you know, maybe a polar perspective that would just be, be amazing. Mark: It would be so Yucca: will be interested in that. Mark: We would, we would love to do that. Also, I wanted to announce because it's on the blog and we've been talking about it in the atheopagan Facebook group, but we are having a non-fixed pagan gathering in 2022. It'll be in Colorado Springs, Colorado in the United States, which is quite central for people who are Canadian or Mexican or from the U S and it's on March. I'm sorry, May 13th through 19th, 13 through 1913 through 16th. Yucca: I think, Yeah. Let me Mark: Yeah. 13th through 16th. Yucca: So that's a Friday through Monday. Mark: yes, it's at a retreat center called love 40 and It's going to be beautiful. It's just, it's really amazing. We've raised enough in deposits in tickets so far to put down the deposit for the retreat center Yucca: Just tucked into the Ponderosa Pines and. Mark: Beautiful view of, of Pike's peak and some national registry national historic building registry buildings on the site that are in the kind of classic rustic style including one called the Ponderosa lodge, which will be our meeting place for our activities. So it's pretty exciting. And there's all the details about it or that we have so far are on the atheopagan ism.org blog. And we, if you're interested in meeting other people of like-mind and gathering around a fire for rituals and doing workshops and just hanging out. Yucca: and we'll be there. Mark: Yep. We'll be there. We will be there. So don't let that frighten you though. We, we, we aren't harmful and it'll, it's actually going to be great. It'll be the first time we've ever met. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: so that'll be exciting. So, if you're interested in that at all, do go to the blog and find out more about it and keep watching that space because as we know more about what the event is going to entail, we'll be publishing that stuff there. So, I'm really excited about this. I think it's just going to be so much fun. Yucca: Yeah. And I feel, you know, Giddy just thinking about it. It's very, Mark: Huh. Yucca: Yeah, it's, it's, it'll just be amazing to see people and especially after the year and a half or at that 0.2 years, that we'll all have had and, Mark: right, right. I mean, especially after all of the, the shut downs of COVID and all that kind of stuff, and we have nearly a maid to plan for it. Well, yes, everything else. it's it's not Yucca: What a year, Mark: Yeah, at least the election worked out. Okay. Yucca: Just need to get worried about midterms. Mark: yes. Yes, but let's not. Go there right now. So this has been a great conversation. thank you Yucca, thank you so much. And to all of our friends out there listening wherever you are, I hope that your solstice, whichever one it is is wonderful and enjoyable and that you have a lot of wonderful things to eat. Yucca: exactly. And if there's anything that you want to share with us about your traditions or questions, suggestions that you have for the podcast, you can find us at. Mark: thewonderpodcastqueues@gmail.com. So that's the wonder podcast. All one word Q S. At gmail.com and we welcome your feedback and your questions and any input that you have so that we can make this thing better. Yucca: Well, thank you, mark. Mark: Thank you, Yucca. Have a great week.
https://atheopaganism.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/may-celebrations-that-arent-about-sex/ Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com If you enjoy the podcast and would like to help us reach more ears, please consider leaving a rating or review on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-wonder-science-based-paganism/id1501228156 S2E15 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host Yucca. Mark: I'm Mark. Yucca: And today we are talking about Beltane, May Day, Gwanwyn, whatever it is that you call it for where those of us in the Northern hemisphere coming into spring. Mark: Yes. Or depending on how you count it coming into summer, because during the Renaissance, this was considered the beginning of summer, there are all these madrigals about, you know, the beginning of, of summer for the wonderful one of Maine. And that of course is because they were in the middle of what's called the little ice age and What they considered summer. Wasn't exactly what we consider summer a day that reaches 60 degrees was, was ball money in those days. And they were very happy to have them. So when may rolled around, it was a time when people started feeling like they weren't trapped indoors all the time. Yucca: Yeah. And that a lot of the agriculture side could really pick up. And until very, very recently, the majority of the human population was involved in agriculture. The fact that today it's a minority is a, is really, I think this is the only time in history since we have been doing agriculture, that that has been the case. Mark: Yes. Yes. With the, with the innovation of agriculture and concentration of populations in cities. So-called civilization. That's what we've been doing until the advent of industrial capitalism and the, the industrial farming and all the things that go along with that. Yucca: Yeah. So really the 20th, the beginning of the 20th century into the little bit into the med, but let's, let's talk about what this holiday is to each of us and what it is on a. Larger community level. Mark: Okay. Yucca: Yeah. So Mark, what is happening in your climate right now? It's been spring for a while, Mark: Yeah, but it's still lovely. It's where we are starting the beginning of the Marine fog cycle, which means that if we have a couple of days of heat, which to this point has only meant into the eighties or so. Then what will happen is that there will be an upwelling inland because of the heat. The air is expanding and therefore there's a low pressure zone and it pulls the cooler moisture Laden Marine. Layer in from the ocean and we get fog and it cools everything down for a couple of days. And so there's this cycle of 55 degree days and then sort of 80 degree days. And then sort of maybe you get a little bit of heat, but then the fog comes in really aggressively. It's fantastic for growing things. To my understanding Sonoma County is considered one of the most fertile places in the world. You can grow almost anything here. The the only exception are tropical plants that won't make it like coffee and pineapple and things like that. But even bananas I've, I've seen, I have seen a banana tree. I have no idea whether it actually generates any bananas or not, but it is a banana tree. So right now the, the fruit trees have mostly finished. Blooming, but there are still some blooms on them. Some of them are now, you know, starting the process of creating fruit. I've just finished working at a plant sale for my organization, a fundraiser for the last couple of days. And so all these little sprouted starts of tomatoes and peppers and cucumbers and summer squash and winter squash and leaf vegetables and flowers and all these things. I've really kind of been up to my elbows in it for, for a couple of days. And it reminds me that this is really the time in my region when people are putting in gardens. We had the most amazing experience yesterday at this sale. Our hours were from 10 to four. There was a mob gathered at the gate at 10 o'clock in the morning on Saturday. And this wave of humanity flowed into our facility. And when it flowed out three hours later, 80% of our plants were gone. Yucca: Wonderful. Mark: raised more than $10,000 selling plants at four bucks a piece. I mean, it was, it was, it was extraordinary. And I mean, a lot of that was that people were generous and rounded up there. Their cost in order to make a donation to the organization. But we had close to 3000 plants and they just went away. People bought them and off, they went into people's gardens. So it's definitely that fertility time of year, the time of, of, of growth and planting and And just that lively late spring feeling kind of time in my era, in my area. How about yours? Yucca: Well, it's definitely spring now. It's, it's kind of we're at the G of ready set go. Right. We're just about to, it's tempting us to put the plants in the ground. But we will freeze at least one more time before the 15th. Usually even in late may, we still might get a frost, but we're lower thirties and the night upper sixties during the day, it's a really very pleasant time of year, unless you have Juniper allergies. In which case it is a miserable time of year for people, because you can just see the pollen, literally see the golden clouds of the Paulette traveling through the sky and Do you like the smell? Great. If you're allergic to it, it's rough. But the, the, the trees are the fruit trees are blooming and it's that kind of delicate time where if the fruits, if the, if they can set, then they might make it through that frost. But a lot of the years, they don't when that late frost comes, because lots of fruit trees that were planted here, people just. Planted them hopefully. And it's went well, we'll try right. If it survives, maybe. Mark: Every two, three years we'll get a good harvest. Yucca: that's right. And, and when it's apricot ear, you're begging people to come and take your Apricot's away. Right? They're just, we get these little golf ball sized Apricot's that just are everywhere. And the birds love them and everybody loves them, but it's just this very awake time, but it's almost, you're almost ready to go. You're almost out there, but it's not quite time. So it's, you're just getting ready to run and the birds are all back. And I saw the first few hummingbirds last, these last couple of weeks, and it's just a very alive time. With a little bit of cling still to that coldness. it's wonderful. And finally, we can be outside barefoot and running around and, and getting sunburns and my freckles are back like crazy, you know? So yeah, love this time of year. Mark: Yeah, well, it sounds like what's in common is that it's a very energizing time of year. There's a feeling that the outdoors has become welcoming when it wasn't for a long time and there's so much energetic going on in the natural world. And in the agricultural cycle happening right now. So. To me. I, I mean, there are the metaphorical meanings of Mayday or Beltane that I celebrate, but then there's also just that, that, that youthful, energetic, creative, fertile kind of juice that, that happens this time of year. That's just so exciting. It feels so good. Yucca: Yeah. And so terms of the, of your wheel of the year, your experience of the different holidays. What is this holiday for you? One, what, what do you call it? So there are so many different names. And what does it mean for you? Mark: Sure. Well, I call it Mayday, which is unfortunate to some degree because sometimes I have to celebrate it on some day, other than May 1st, but I still call it Mayday. And the reason that I do that is that I don't really connect with any prior culture. I might. People who've been in the United States since 16, 20, any recollection of connection with people from another place is forgotten. So on this sort of generic American kind of quasi secular white guy, and And what that means is that I don't connect with the Celtic names for for holidays around the course of the wheel of the year or Norse names or Greek names or. You know, Egyptian names or whatever it might happen to be. But I do celebrate a cycle of holidays that is eight stations around the course of the year, which was invented by Gerald Gardner in creating Wicca in the 1940s. And. Basing that in some traditions that go far, far further back. But no culture that we know of actually celebrated all eight of those stations around the course of the year. The reason that I find that meaningful and that I celebrate that we live the year is that it's rooted in astronomical reality. It's the solstices and equinoxes. And then the mid points between each of those which creates a natural evenly spaced wheel with these eight spokes. And May Day is one of the so-called cross quarters, which means it's a midpoint between the spring Equinox and the summer solstice. And I do draw many of the traditional meanings of modern Neo paganism into my metaphorical understanding of this time of the year. I tend to map. The wheel of the year is not only the agricultural wheel of the year, but also the arc of a human life. So birth that you will and infancy at the February Sabbath, which I call river rain and kind of. Childhood generally, you know, the childhood of elementary school pre preteen at the spring Equinox. And so this holiday becomes the holiday of young adulthood. It's entry into sexuality, it's entry into taking on some adult responsibilities. And and agency in ways that that people younger do not have yet. And so it becomes a time of celebrating that sort of empowerment and also just very joyful sensual pleasures, taste, touch, feel scent Eating delicious things and just enjoying bodily pleasures. How about yours? Yours is probably about bugs. Yucca: That's next that's next time. That's no, the art that you're close, but that's that's for solstice. So, for, for us, we do, we don't really map the human life. Or the relationship between people or things like that for us, each of the holidays in each of the seasons, really? Because the holidays are just the midpoint of the seasons and they're fun too. They're fun. And they're wonderful and they're celebrations, but it really is about the whole season for us. And so which particular day we celebrate the holiday, it's kind of flexible. But for us this time, which is second spring although sometimes we'll end up using Belton or Mayday neither of the terms, I really connect with that much, although I do very strongly connect with the Celtic side of things. I don't speak. Any of the Gaelic languages. So I'm on the brittonic side and we have a different, so, Gwanwyn would be spring. But this is a time that we're celebrating the annuals. So each season we celebrate a part of the larger biosphere, an ecosystem or a type of living thing that really is impactful to our lives as human animals. So this is the animals. This is the flowering plants. Although there are many perennial flower and plants as well, but this is the time to celebrate those, those quick growers, those annuals, the. The vegetables, the leafy fees, all of those things that, that are only here for a short period of time, they come in and they burst out of the soil and they collect that sunlight and they, they transform the energy from our star into biotic right there. The transformers from the avionic to biotic. And it's just magical and amazing. And it's this rush and then it's, and then they're gone, but they lay the foundation for everything else. They're the first stage and succession. They are the food for many of the creatures, they're their own beings to themselves. And so this is just delight in that. That recognition of that. And really also for us getting ready for, for beginning the annual garden, because it's about to be a lot of work. Mark: Yes. Yucca: So we're starting to harden off the plants and resisting putting them in the ground. But the ones that we've started by seed our tomatoes and peppers and all of those. Want to put them in the ground, but not doing it. And yeah, just and loving the flowers in the spring and outside and playing. Mark: Well, I think there's a real similarity there in particularly in that, that sh very short, that very short life cycle, which kind of grabs at the opportunity of life and thrusts up out of the earth and spreads out some solar panels and starts making sugar. And and immediately goes to work, starting to arrange for reproduction of itself and then dies. Which is the story of life on earth by and large it's it's, it is a rarity for something not to live that cycle for a multicellular life, not to live that cycle. And you know, we, we happen to be fortunate in that we, we get to live for a little while, not very long in, in any kind of grand scheme of things, but. You know, a handful of decades is it's a pretty good run for a multicellular animal on planet earth. Yucca: It really is. I mean, considering that. Most multicellular animals on earth are Beatles Mark: Yes. Yucca: they really get it. They get about a season typically and that's it. Right. Mark: right. Yucca: We get, you know, handful of decades, maybe, you know, I'm shooting for I'm shooting for that hundred personally. see if we make it, but you know, that's what we get. And that's, it's amazing though. Think about what the transformation we get to see, but compared to a Redwood Mark: To lettuce, Yucca: or compared to let us yeah. That's even, Mark: let us basically thrusts these leaves up into the world and shouts come and eat me. Because I'm delicious. Yucca: yeah Mark: and yet somehow manages to survive, even though it gets riddled with holes or has herbivores come by and just crop it off entirely. Somehow the species manages to bolt and send out all of these seeds everywhere. Just like, just like that Cottonwood tree we were talking about before we started recording. Or the junipers that you were mentioning in your neighborhood right now. And they start the cycle all over and there's something that's very wonderful to me about that profit legacy. There's an unashamed muchness about the, the plant world that it contrasts with the culture of the society that I grew up in a lot. And And that's why I feel it's very important to have a holiday that acts that is enshrined to acknowledge sexuality because we've got so much stuff around it. Just so many issues and arguments and guilts and shames then. And. And debates over even people's existence, you know, debates over whether non-binary people even exist. It's ridiculous. The, the degree to which we're all bound and twisted up around this one particular aspect of our existence. But I feel that. One of the things that Gardner got right in Waco was in assigning a holiday to the celebration of sexuality, because that's a truly revolutionary act that is truly an in your face rebellion against the Christian shame filled Abrahamic. Understanding of why we're here, what we're supposed to do, what the rules are, who we're responsible to what we're accountable to in life. The whole time idea that you have to follow this kind of random lists of do random list of do's and don'ts otherwise you get thrown in a pit of fire is Somewhat primitive in my opinion, and probably not very well based in reality. And I, on the other hand, I look at this and sexuality is one of the places where people can have deep and abiding joy and pleasure if they don't get in their own way. Obviously consent is important, but I know people who are so bound up in their shame over their desires, that. It's like an anvil around their neck, if it's just a terrible thing and they come back to this shame again and again and again, and inevitably it's what mom told them or what dad punished them for, you know, something, something so sad like that. So I, I personally feel that that. Neo pagan branding of May Day as a holiday, celebrating sexuality is something that is a value. Yucca: Yeah, I share that. Definitely. There's some places that I personally would like to see some expansion. I see there being a big focus on it being often, especially within the, the theistic side, the relationship between the God and the goddess and this very this very specific idea of what sexuality is. Very heteronormative. Yeah. And. Not to say that there's anything wrong with that, but that, that's just one of the many expressions that I think all humans can have that we don't, you know, no matter where somebody identifies on that spectrum that we are very fluid creatures and have a lot of different ways of experiencing that. And I think it's wonderful also to, to. To look at the rest of nature. We often anthropomorphize nature and we look at it and we put all these human ideas and modeling on it, the separating the world into masculine and feminine and the sexism, things like that, where I think sometimes there's some real value in trying to, I don't know what the word would be. Eco to, to try and turn it around and see ourselves as part of the, of nature and part of the larger picture and recognize the mortifies ourselves. And really just get into the whole. Flower thing, right? Thinking about how amazing you were talking about the, the unashamed, just presentation with the plant world. Thinking about flowers. I mean like, Oh yeah. They enlist. They evolve to say, Hey, B. Butterfly come on over here, help me out. Right. Let it let's help me out between my my fellow flower over there and me. Right. And just looking at that from a broader perspective, I think is just an amazing opportunity for this time of year. Mark: I think so, too. And part of, one of the things that makes me very sad about sort of the state of sexuality in the, in the Western world. And I think this is evolving. So, you know, I think there is some hope, but one of the things that makes me very sad is that humans share the quality of being both. Sexual beings and being very curious, we're very exploratory kinds of creatures, but these iron Gates come down around what you're allowed to do as a person in a male body or a person in a female body. And. Yucca: That there Mark: That there are people that are in other bodies that don't really fall into either of those categories. Right. So all of these strictures are in the way when the truth is that. An ordinary healthy person might have a variety of different kinds of sexual experiences throughout their life with different kinds of people. And that would just be a matter of exploring the world that they're in, which is what we do. It's what humans do from the minute that we can crawl. We're B even before that, from the minute that we can work our hands, we're beginning to explore the nature of the world around us and. Curiosity, man, you know, the day you lose, your curiosity is the day you start to die. I just feel like it's so important for us to be able to have experiences without shame. Even. Even experiences that afterwards you might say. Yeah, I didn't like that. Actually. I thought maybe it was a good idea, but now I don't think it was such a good idea. So that's in, that's in my rear view mirror. Now I won't be doing that again. That's perfectly okay. Yucca: that's valid. Yeah. That's important. Right. It's really important to experience what you don't like and be able to identify that. Mark: Yes without punishing yourself for it just saying, well, I learned something I've had sex with men. I don't like it. I didn't know that. And I wouldn't have known that until I had sex with men. And I was very, very clear that that's what I needed to do. So it's just a matter of. It's just, it's, it's a matter of getting this shame thing out of the way this, this, this guilt, this sense of not matching up to some idealized gender role model that is often toxic and disempowering. There's so much to be said around this, but anyway, we're talking about Mayday. Yucca: Yeah, well, you can't help, but, but yeah. Touch on these ideas though, because these are all connected in with this idea. Mark: Yes. Yucca: yep. Now we already have really been looking at it within the, the larger pagan community, but there are some types of traditions. There are some aesthetics which are really popular. This time of year things like maypole and dances and bonfires and things like that. Mark: And it's a time of year when the, the climate tends to be very congenial. So it's a nice time to gather outside, especially if you've got a big bonfire going in the outdoors. You don't do that in California because it's, then the whole state burns down. But in other places it's possible to Yucca: So basically not this half of the continent, maybe people on the other side of the Mississippi might be able to, but yeah. Mark: Yeah, yeah. This half of the continent. It's very difficult to do that unless you are in a true desert where there's just not much to burn and you can clear dirt. So you've got bare dirt for like a hundred foot circle or something like that. Yucca: Sand dunes there. Mark: Yes, that's that's about all. So if yes, if you're in an ashtray, you're you're able to have a fire. But there's something about that gathering around. Gathering without artificial light gathering around a fire gathering to celebrate, gathering with meaning behind, you know, with, with a celebratory intention. You know, it's not just, we're having a party. It's this is the time of year when we do this, you know, we're, we're going to dance around this bonfire tonight and we're going to exercise. All of the things that hold us back from being as fully human as we possibly can. And then tomorrow we're going to put up a maypole or we're going to dance around it and weave the ribbons together. And, and this very, very old tradition, this tradition that is at least at least a thousand years old is something that we will do in order to say hello to history. And also to affirm once again, that here in this moment, this interconnectedness of all of us is meaningful to us. Yucca: If that's something that you really connect with, and that helps you with the connection to history then. Wonderful. But you aren't under any obligation. If you don't connect with that. That's okay. That's one of the things that, that we often really encourage on this podcast is creating your own wheel of the year or wave of the year we talked about with maybe in the tropics, you might have something that isn't quite a wheel, a wheel or something like that, but what is it, what does this time mean to you and how do you cultivate that? How do you support that and how can it enrich your life? Mark: Yes. Yes. And particularly for people who are in the pagan community and are asexual, they can feel really besieged at this time of year because all of this sexual imagery and innuendo and so forth kind of comes raining down. Because. People who are sexual or excited and kind of raring to go. And boy, this is really cool. Have this celebration. There's a, there's a blog post on the atheopagan ism blog. That's about may celebrations that have nothing to do with sex. And we'll link to it in the, in the podcast notes for you folks that just. Aren't doing it that way. Because you know, your way is as valid as anybody. Else's the most important thing is that you're defining a path for yourself. And if it's working for you, then it's good. If it's not working for you, then it needs fixing. Yucca: Exactly. And some of those types of celebrations that might not be appropriate for your nine-year-old. Right? Not to say that we don't want our children to grow up with a healthy relationship to all of that, but there are some things that. Depending on your family and the maturity of each person in your family. There's different things that are appropriate at different times. So, yeah. So with us, we're not talking about any of the sex side of it with our young children, but we are talking about flowers and spraying and you know, all of that and putting ribbons in trees. But you know, it pulling back on some of the phallic symbol symbols and things like that. Didn't tell him. A little bit later on, right. Mark: And it, and this is a caveat that is really important to introduce, which is that here in the pagan sub culture, we like to believe that. Within the, within the circle, that's drawn by this culture. We're free to create whatever culture we want to. The truth is we're still subject to the laws of where we live. And this was a war that I had with people that had some sacred land and held a belting festival every year North of where I am here. Now I won't go into details about who and where, but. They had a built-in festival, which included very sexual Mae games to to, to choose the main King and make queen for the year. And there was just a lot of very erotic sort of play and a lot of nudity and it was. They invited families to come. And a lot of the families were like, yes, this is sex positive. I want my kids to be raised in a sex positive environment. And the truth is we're in the state of California and there are laws. People could lose their kids. People could lose their licenses to practice as therapists. There are serious consequences to exposing children to some of that kind of stuff. And you really need to think it out. You really do a lot of that education is going to have to happen within the home because it's just not safe. Otherwise Yucca: Yeah. So it's, that's a really important thing to bring up. Thank you for touching on that. That's something for everybody to be aware of and different places are going to have different laws and different expectations. And it's, this is just part of the world that we live in and need to be aware of. Mark: Yes. Yes. And it's a shame at some level, and it's also very healthy on another level because one of the things about this place that I like to go to, and we had these magnificent belting festivals, they were three, four days long and they were, they were so joyous and so happy and so beautiful. But because they were not 18 and over, there were a couple of occasions where pedophiles creepy guys interpolated themselves into this community in order to, to do their routine. And fortunately, they got booted before they did damage, but still. You know, people who are predators will look for opportunities and you just need to be very, very careful and clear. And of course, hearkening back to our last episode, teach your kids about boundaries. So, Yucca: So what are some, yeah. Where do we go here? What are a couple of the things that you will be doing this year? So May Day is next week. We're just a few days ahead. What will you be up to? Mark: Well, May Day is a Saturday, Saturday this year. And that means that the Saturday atheopagan zoom mixer happens every Saturday morning. And so we will be doing a zoom ritual together. And I don't know much of what that's going to be about because I was working this weekend and the planning session was yesterday. So I will be learning more of what it's going to be about, but I'm looking forward to discovering whatever that is. I'm going to be going into my backyard and hanging ribbons in trees because ribbons and trees are cool. They look very pretty and it's It's a nice tradition to have. I'm hoping to make some may wine. I need to get some dried sweet Woodruff and I there's a source here, but it may not be open very often because of the COVID pandemic. But may wine is sweet and sometimes slightly effervescent wine, like a governor's demeanor or a move re that has. Dried sweet Woodruff in it. And it's a very characteristic flavor. It's unlike anything else. You leave it in the wine overnight and then filter it. And it's got this particular flavor that is characteristic of may. I like to drink mine with a strawberry in it. Very, very tasty central pleasurable kind of experience. And, you know, I'm sure that there's other stuff that I'll do as well. I mean, no, I'll leave that stuff to the private rather, rather than, rather than go into it in in the podcast. But I'll celebrate the, the, the season in the way that I find meaningful. Yucca: Sounds good. Mark: How about you? Yucca: Well, we will probably actually be celebrating. Right after we'll probably celebrate on Monday because that's what my weekend ends up being. The actual weekend is on Saturday and Sunday. I'm often very busy with work during that time period. But Monday the plan is the weather's looking good. We're going to do a little camp out in our yard. Mark: nice. Yucca: kids, we got them one, one of those little, they call them two person tents. They're two person, child tents. I don't think that my partner, I would both fit in a tent and we're not particularly large people. But we're going to do a, you know, no electricity lights out. Camping out. We've already been putting the ribbons and the trees and we've the kids. My oldest is really getting into her drawing and writing. So she's been making little cards for people and we've made little paper baskets, and we're going to go and leave the baskets by the doors of some of our, our dear loved ones in the area. So we'll give them little May Day baskets. Mark: That's lovely. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Very that's utterly charming. Yucca: So it's it's really fun because the oldest is, is getting old enough. Now that the holidays mean something, right. Like she remembers a little bit from last year and They both want it to be Halloween every day, but it's not Halloween. It's a different holiday, but we're making yeah, we're making, Mark: want it to be Halloween every day? I know I do. Yucca: yes. I'm pretty sure the littlest one just wants the candy though. Mark: Oh, Yucca: day? Yeah. Halloween day. But yeah, the oldest is getting very excited about that each of the holidays and Loves to put and wants to learn to braids so she can braid some of the ribbons that we put in the trees. Mark: That's fun. I remember when I learned to braid, when I was a kid, I went through, I don't know how much yarn, just making braids and then tying them off and then making new braids. I had a stack of them. Yucca: I had a, basically one half of my head turned into braids when I figured it out, the little tiny, you know, Pencil braids, Mark: Huh. Yucca: sticking out in every direction because when you pull it too tight, it just sticks right out. So braids are wonderful. Mark: must've been adorable. Yucca: Well, this has been great. Mark: Yes. And I really wish all of our listeners, you know, the joy of the season the, the, the sheer, the sheer exuberance of, I mean, even if it's as little as, you know, if you have a privacy fence, just go and sit in your backyard naked just to something that says, yes, I'm alive. Cause this is the time for it. This is when the plant world is saying yes, I'm alive. And and we can follow up with that. We can, we can we can join them. So, thank you all for listening. Once again, if you have questions or comments or suggestions, we're at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. So thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com and we look forward to hearing from you. Thank you so much for this Yucca. I've really enjoyed talking with you today. Yucca: Likewise Mark. See you next week. Mark: Bye-bye.
Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com! Mark's Mulled Wine 1 (375-ml) bottle of red or tawny port wine 2 (750-ml) bottle red wine, such as Cabernet Sauvignon (cheap! Don't do this to the good stuff!) 1/2 cup honey 2 cinnamon sticks 2 oranges, zested and juiced 8 whole cloves 6 star anise 4 oranges, peeled, for garnish Combine the red wine (not the port), honey, cinnamon sticks, zest, juice, cloves and star anise in a large saucepan, bring to a boil and simmer over low heat for 10 minutes. Add port wine. Pour into mugs, add an orange peel to each and serve. Serves 8. Yucca's Winter Broth Short version: Simmer bones in a big pot (or slowcooker, instantpot etc) for 12 to 48 hours. Add vegetable scraps for the last hour. Strain into mugs and enjoy. Detailed version: Save the bones from your other meals in the freezer. Once you have several pounds of one kind of bone saved up, add them to a big pot of water or large slow cooker. Add a dash of something acidic like apple cider vinegar or wine. If you have small bones break them open to release more marrow-ey goodness. Bring pot to a boil, then lower heat and simmer for 12+ hours. The longer, the better. Check water level periodically and add extra water if it gets low. About an hour before your broth is done add in vegetable scraps. If you are going to add herbs, wait until the last half hour to add. Strain the broth directly into mugs to enjoy or into glass containers if you plan to save it for later. Do not be surprised to see your broth gel up if it cools. But be aware that if you simmer it for a long time the collagen may break down into its constituent amino acids and not gel, and that's still perfectly fine and delicious! S2E01 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder: Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark Yucca: and I'm Yucca. Mark: And today we're going to talk about, about food. Big topic really important for all of us. Nobody gets out of here alive without food. Of course, nobody gets out of here alive at all, but, there are a lot of things to say about our relationship with food and what it is and how it fits into our spiritual practice. And then we'll round out the podcast with a couple of, recipes for you for the winter holiday season. Yep. Yucca: What we're doing right now and moving into 2021. Mark: Oh, Oh Yucca: Haha Mark: Thankfully. Yucca: Okay. Well, the first thing I want to say with food is that we are all part of the food web. That's just the reality of being part of this earth being alive is that we are eating and we are being eaten. And we don't typically think of ourselves as being eaten, but we are, and eventually we'll be completely eaten. But at the moment, the skin that you are shedding the hair, our waste. That's all somebody else's food. And even though we may be currently in the history of humans, we're apex predators, there's still plenty of folks eating us and we're eating plenty of other folks. No matter what your dietary strategy is, we're eating living things to be alive. Mark: Yes. Yes. We talked about this a little bit. In the Solstice Episode and the episode about darkness, we are, we are by our very natures, the takers on of the component parts of what has died to reconstruct ourselves. And we don't necessarily wait around for those things to die. We kill them. We cultivate them to kill them. And we have been doing that as humans for, at least, well, in the case of animal husbandry, at least 9,000 years. And in the case of agriculture, probably seven-ish something like that. So relatively recent in recently in human experience. Yucca: We aren't the first, I'd like to note, that agriculture came about- it has been around for hundreds of millions of years. It just hasn't always been humans. There's a lot of ant species who are farmers, both with crops, if you consider fungi in the realm of crops and with livestock, with their aphids and yeah, amazing examples of that in the arthropods-fungi relationships. There's lots of them, but we've been doing it for a long, long time life. Sometimes we partner in a [mutualistic] symbiotic way and other times we simply are the predator of whatever our food is and predator. Isn't just something that eats meat, but the rabbit is the predator of the grass; the wolf is the predator of the rabbit. So it doesn't matter what type of life we're talking about. If you're eating something else, you're it's predator. Mark: Right. Right. Yucca: And we all eat at somebody else because we are part of a complex ecosystem. Mark: Yes. Yucca: Maybe way back. When life first started on earth, it might've been a simple enough ecosystem that we didn't have those interactions, but that's not the case anymore. Now we're part of world that the entire surface is just covered in life and not just the surface, but all the way up into the atmosphere, deep down into the ground and the caves and the ice. It's, it's how we are. How we relate to each other. Mark: And so that ongoing negotiation between, you know, the, the forces that are eating on us and our desire to stay, to maintain integrity in our current form, is this ongoing push pull that happens throughout our lives. And we, we're familiar with certain conditions, for example, where we're starting to lose the war like gangrene, for example. Well, what that means is that other organisms are eating you a lot faster than you can reproduce cells to reestablish the form that you want to be in. And it's a very serious condition. Various kinds of staph infections and, you know, all those sorts of, opportunistic parasites, right. Ringworm and, various kinds of internal worms Yucca: intestinal Mark: Yeah. So, this is, this is the reality. The reality is that we are food sooner or later. And, and in an ongoing sense with skin mites and eyelash mites and all that kind of stuff, there are literally little tiny microscopic creatures that you can't even see that actually have behavior programmed into them, just like we do. They managed, they managed to eat and excrete and mate and lay eggs and do all that kind of stuff. And they're smaller than you can see with the naked eye. Yucca: Yeah. Yeah, we are ecosystems. Yes. And those mites are, when you look at the pictures of them with the microscope, they're both terrifying, like monster movie terrifying, and also adorably cute. Mark: They're really cute. Yucca: They're just, they're just so cute. And they they're part of us. They are they're commensal with us. They don't make a difference there. They're on us and it doesn't matter. And. And then there's all those folks that are on us, that are helping us that are our defense that are protecting us. And then they're the ones who are on us, that aren't so good. They're the vast, vast minority though. Mark: Right. Yucca: But they're still on us because while we're providing them with food and habitat. Mark: Sure, sure. Yucca: When we get rid of them, we get very, very sick. When we get, Mark: when we get rid of the beneficial ones. Yucca: Yes. That does. Yeah. The, the commensal doesn't make a difference to us and getting rid of the pathogenic ones. But, well, maybe when we get into ‘hygiene hypothesis' with that, but that's a, another question. We're talking about food though. Let's come back to what you're saying. We got onto the microbiome because we are food for others, but we can also address food in terms of our daily relationship with meals. So we were talking about it kind of on this big scale of what is food, but, but what about the food that we purposefully put into our bodies and have such an emotional relationship with? Mark: Well, I think that, that the first thing that I'd like to say goes back to what we were talking about a second ago, which is about the disconnect. Both at both ends, we are completely disconnected from our food illness. Our food seems to arrive from nowhere. And then our waste seems to go away somewhere. And none of that is really informative of the fact that we are creatures in a food web. Right? Yeah. The, those connections are not visible to us. They're blocked off. So one of the things that I try to do, and I've resolved to do a much better job of it this year, and I'm getting better slowly. It's so hard when I'm hungry. I just want to tear in, but I'm getting better at doing, meal acknowledgements. In which I acknowledged the power of the sun on the soil that brings forth the life that I eat. Whether it's in plant form or whether it's in animal form. And all of the various hands that contributed to bringing that to me, whether it's, you know, the person who tended and pick the crops, the person who drove the truck, the person who loaded it in a grocery store, all of those, all of those workers whose efforts need to be honored because that supply line is what keeps me alive. And so I try to do that before every meal. And so far it's more miss than hit, but it's much better than it was a couple of months ago. Hm. Yucca: we, have a freezer, well, two big freezers actually. And so each year we'll get a steer, a hog and a couple of cabritos. And we actually, if the, the rancher we got them from, didn't have a name for them, we actually give them a name and make reference to. So, you know, that's, that's basically more than half of our food. The more look at our caloric intake. That's more than half of our food for the entire year. And we, we make reference to them by. Those names that it makes it a very personal experience for us. And then we do, we do a lot of growing, but not all of our food. There's a lot of things that I like to eat that are not going to grow very well in my climate. I do have a banana tree as a houseplant, but it does not make bananas. And I still like bananas. And coffee and chocolate are also on those lists of things that I like. We buy that we don't grow one day maybe, but even then a greenhouse could never grow enough to have more than a few cups. So maybe something very, very valuable to trade when the, the supposed zombie apocalypse comes or whatever. But that's, that's a big thing for us. The food every day. Trying to be connected with that is, is huge for us, but that trick of giving the name to the animal, because we get, because we're eating the same one, right? It would be a little bit different if we were going and, and buying cuts from the grocery store or something like that. But that's a, if you do do a freezer, that's a really lovely trick. And then knowing the folks who, who raised those animals and going to, I like to go to the ranch that they're from, because my background actually is I am a agro and range ecologist. So if I go to their ranch, then I have a pretty good sense by just walking onto their land, whether they're doing a good job or not. And I really it's important to me that they're doing a good job taking care of their soil and their land. And if they're doing that, then I'm pretty sure that they're taking really good care of their animals, too. Mark: Yeah, we, we buy mostly from a commercial outfit called Harris ranch, which is all grass fed beef. They do grain finish, which is not my favorite, but, they have very good range conservation practices. And that's part of why I'm interested in that. One of the real challenges with food in the modern era is that we are basically strip mining our top soil, the billions of years of accumulated soil. Are being steadily, depleted and rapidly, especially in, in, in heavily agricultural areas. And we, we try to pour fertilizers into them and all this kind of stuff in order to, increase their Yucca: productivity. It's the problem. Mark: Exactly. That's precisely Yucca: it's yeah. It's, it's killing the soil life, which is what allows plants access to the nutrients in the first place. Mark: Yes. Yes. So food choices, become really important. And for some people, this is just not, it's not the battle they're going to fight and I have no business telling somebody else that it has to be. Yucca: Yeah. We're not here to say, eat the way we eat or make the choices we are making, right. Yeah. Mark: Right. For some people it's a very, what they choose to eat is very important and a part of their identity. And they are, you know, very clear about the value set that drives them to choose, to eat certain things or not to eat other things. And that's fine as well. Food is so personal to us, you know, we put it in our bodies. It's very, very personal. And so, and we're all genetically different, which means that things taste differently to us. Different things will appeal to different people based on what their genetics and their microbiome are like Yucca: And our cultural backgrounds too. Yes. Cultural and our regional. That insisting somebody, people in different areas of the world eat the same way as I think is not appropriate to insist that other people eat in a certain way. Mark: It's not only not appropriate, it doesn't work. I work for a food bank that provides healthy food to people who live with serious illnesses like HIV and COVID-19 and things like that. While they're recovering and, we have learned, we, we have, about a third of our clients now are latinx families and we have to provide them with culturally appropriate food or they simply won't eat. Yucca: Sure. Mark: And I mean, it's a very serious problem. It's like, you know, if you give people a bunch of food that is not recognizable as food by the people you give it to, then they're not going to eat and they're not going to get better. So, You know, there, there are some organizations that are really kind of beating the drum. You know, you must eat the kale, you must eat the kale. And, that's, that's just not realistic about the way people behave. Yucca: Yeah. That's very much like the suggestion. If you're first starting to grow a garden, one of the biggest pieces of advice that people give us grow the things you like. Because if you grow a bunch of zucchinis, you'll have a million of them and you don't like them, then you're going to have a million rotting zucchinis. Right. That's just the, if they're not appropriate for you Mark: and you're going to feel really bad that you wasted all that food. Yeah. Which we've touched on this before as well, feeling bad about pretty much anything is not very helpful. It doesn't make those you've harmed feel any better and it doesn't help you any either. You know, if you have something to feel bad about take action in order to try to resolve that issue, don't just go around feeling guilty. Yeah. Yucca: So of course, this is not to say don't try new foods, right? This isn't, we're not trying to say, but, but that, that culturally appropriate personally appropriate that, that food sovereignty is a really, really important issue in terms of culturally appropriate food, but also access to food. As well. Mark: Yes, indeed. And there are, there are certain things, for example, that I won't eat either because the cruelty involved in creating them is just unacceptable to me. Or because the industry that has sprung up in order to sell them has been damaging to others. I think of quinoa particularly, quinoa is now expensive and hard to get. In the areas of Peru that it's native to because it's being exported so much to the US it is a staple food for those Peruvian people living up in those mountains. So to me, I just don't think I personally, I'm not going to eat it out it, and I'm not going to eat it. So Yucca: we, don't eat seed oils. Because I have yet to come across a seed oil that was - industrial seed oils - that was produced in a way that is not incredibly damaging. There are some crops that are done that can be done, very damaged and talk about almonds. But I don't care if my neighbor's got a backyard with an almond tree in it. I'd love to eat their almonds. But we have yet to find any industrial seed oils that have been made in a, in a way that I would feel good about. And I'm not great on the health aspects of those. Mark: pretty much they aren't so good. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of an olive oil guy. Anyway. I'm, I'll go with olive oil. The,, where was I last, wherever I was. Yucca: Oh, there you were speaking about quinoa or certain foods that you don't eat because of the, the practices around them. Mark: Yes. But that said, you know, I, I buy fair trade coffee, for example. Right. Because the people who are being. Subjugated in order to create coffee, actually get the fruit of their labors by fair trade. I don't want to buy those big plantations sort of slavery driven, coffee products, but I don't give up coffee entirely either. So, and I I want to take sort of a left turn here and acknowledge that individual behavior is not going to solve the challenges that we have in order to come into sustainability and balance with the natural world, the overwhelming majority of energy consumption, the overwhelming majority of pollution waste creation, all that kind of stuff happened through industrial processes. So yes. Do your bit, if you feel called to do so, but let's not kid ourselves that by eating the right diet, we're, we're going to solve everything. We also have to be activists and really push for the destructive practices to end Yucca: because it's systemic. Yes, right. We're looking at how to whole systems work. But, but certainly the individual behavior, our behavior is what's going to, in many ways, lead to the ability for us to make those changes. Yes. So it's, you know, it's not, it's not a hopeless thing, but it is important to keep it within context and perspective. Mark: Sure. I mean climate free or, you know, climate neutral energy was something that ended up becoming a huge movement because consumers wanted it. Consumers didn't want to be. Depending on coal fired power plants and nuclear plants and so forth, you know, they demanded something better and the industry turned around and realized that it could make more money, by using these renewables rather than, you know, with extractive processes. And that's the transitional moment that we're in right now, but consumer choice had a lot to do with it. Yucca: Yeah. And on our everyday life, I think it's, it's a place where we can really feel empowered and make really important differences in our daily lives. So feeling good about what you're eating, feeling good in terms of the health of what you're eating, that works with your body and your lifestyle, because that's another aspect we didn't really touch on the nutritional needs of people's going to be very different based on what are they doing? Someone who works an office job is a totally requires a totally different type of nutrition than your top athlete or your person who's on their feet all day or whatever these out in the sun, all these different things. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. And. As with all creatures, one size does not fit all. It's true of humans and it's true of every other organism that's out there. We may not be able to detect the subtle differences between two ants, but they're, there, there are very definitely there. And just as that is true, it's true. That has we humans, we all have our own individual dietary needs. And there are no universal prescriptions which will magically solve all problems and, and satisfactorily nourish the whole human population. Yucca: And they change at different times in our life, at different life stages. And I think that they also change seasonally, especially when you're in an area that has extreme seasons that are very different. Mark: for sure Yucca: So that's one of the things that we do that I get a lot of joy from is eating in a seasonal pattern, because that helps me with my sense of the connection with the seasons connection with my land. But it also makes it fun that there are certain foods that I eat certain times of year. And then I don't other times. And I have that to look forward to. It's just, that's when it's available and it's, and it's exciting and it's enriching in that way. Mark: So, what would we like, would we like to talk about a couple of things that people could make for themselves if they choose to? Yucca: Sure. Yeah. So. I guess it's sharing. Well, why don't before we go there, why don't we talk a little bit about food within our own practices? Oh right. Jumped over that a little bit. We've been talking on this really sort of broad area of let's talk about food of what is it and the importance of it within the grand scheme of things. But, but how about, is it something that plays a role in your ritual practice and your daily life? Mark: Particularly in group rituals, food and drink do play a significant role in my ritual life. My, my ritual circle, I mean, we, we laugh about it. We eat so well. You know, everybody kind of goes all out to bring something wonderful when we get together and we haven't been able to do that this year, of course. But, even in our. Even in our Yule ritual, which took place on zoom. We had a segment for when we could drink toasts and eat chocolate or some other kind of, you know, yummy snack, and just, virtually break bread with one another and, you know, visit with one another in that kind of way. And, I think it's a very humanizing thing and it's, it also makes, Biological sense. Being in ritual space can be very energy consuming. Your brains really whizzing and your brain is what sucks up more calories than anything else in your body. And so if you go through an intensive, ritual, transformational experience of some kind and you then come out of it, the last thing you should be doing is then just totalling off to get in your car and drive somewhere. It's not healthy. It's not safe. Yeah. It makes a lot more sense for you to have some grounding. Food that will renew replenish the calories that you've lost and can get you more of a sense of having your feet on the ground, before you operate heavy machinery. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: How about you Yucca? How does food fit in your practice? Yucca: Yeah, so food. Food is a very daily, I mean, hopefully a very daily thing for me, with my, a lot of my practices around the family experience right now. Providing food, growing food- the, the little ones are getting old enough that they can be involved in that process of the growing and harvesting and preparing it to some extent, with lots of supervision because toddlers at knives are not typically a good combination, but it's important that they do learn to use them respectfully and safely. And so, I think that if it's something's taboo, then they're more likely to, when they do experiment with it to experiment in a less safe way than understanding the rules around it. So it's very central to the daily experience that we have. Not as big a role in terms of directly with ritual, but that's, I think a big part is because they really just don't do a lot of group ritual and that's been the different places and phases that I've been in my life. My hope is that when we are on the other side of the virus and the social distancing. Requirements are at a different level and the children are getting a little bit older. My dream is having more of that community around us. We used to do for the, the, for the equinoxes and solstices. We would do feasts with our close family and friends. And that's something I would like to bring back, but on another, a little bit scaled up of a level when that's possible. So that's just one of those dreams for the future then that I would love to do. Mark: Well, yes. I mean, it sounds as though the circumstances of your life enable you to be much more plugged into the food cycle. Than I certainly am, which is why constantly reminding myself at every meal, you know, that. Where this came from, what it's a product of, who, who got it to me, is so important to me. Because living on a suburban cul-de-sac, a block from a grocery store, Yucca: what's, what's this, the population of your County, Mark: about a half a million. It's a million acres, so it's a big County, but I dunno, relative to, New Mexico, I'm not sure whether that's true. Oh, Yucca: we're about 2 million for the state Mark: 2 million acres. Yucca: No, 2 million people Mark: population Yucca: population for this state. I'm not sure what we are in acres were damn pretty big. Yeah. But yeah, Mark: so, That's just something that I've come to grips with. I mean, I've, I, I think as I mentioned before, you have to pick your battles and a lot of where I've really focused my effort to minimize my impact has been around energy consumption and transportation. And that kind of thing. We've talked about this before. So yeah. Why don't you explain one of those seasonal things that you make for your family? Yucca: Sure. Well, we are in winter now. This is for us, this, we've just had the solstice. This is First Winter, it's cold, it's dark. And we've really been into broths right now. Stews and broths and those heavier things. And we will do broths in the evening. A few episodes back we talked about light and darkness and, and all of that. And one of the things I shared was that we have orange colored lights in our home. So when we're getting ready for bed in the evening, we switched the lights over to those red lights instead of our white bright lights. And we'll usually have some broth and it's just this really wonderful- it's warm and a mug, just a very well wonderful little ritual of calming down. And the way that I cook and the way that I bake too is by, I don't really use recipes. I just kind of look at what do I have and because I've experimented enough, I kind of have a sense of how it'll work. If I get a new ingredient for the first time, I'll look up and I'll go to maybe the first. So you pages on the search engine and read each person's recipe and just kind of get a sense of, Oh, how are people using this ingredient and then experiment with that. But with the broths, what we do is we save the bones and I'll keep it easy, keep it separate depending on, you know, the bone versus the beef versus lamb or something like that. And I'll do a long, long boil to get a real good bone broth going and then whatever vegetables that we have that we've got the ends of. So the top of the carrot that we didn't use and, some of the turnip peels and the. Onion peels and garlic peels and all of those, whatever those vegetables are that are more of the wintry style ones at the end. And that last hour will go in. So making the broth at first, and for people who don't eat meat, you can even do a broth just as well by taking all your foods, your vegetable scraps, giving it a nice long simmer and, yeast at the end, right. At the end, you don't want to put it in at the beginning, but like a nutritional yeast, and that can give it that real nice, kind of mouth texture to it and that umami taste. But we'll do that. And then, usually I'll skim out the, spent vegetables and put those in the compost and then salt, a little pepper. And it's the most delicious, wonderful sensation to drink at night in the cold of winter with the little flickering lights, and then with cozy little people and fuzzy blankets with stuffed animals. You got to watch out though, they like to spill it on stuffed animals. So that's what we've been doing a lot of right now. Mark: That's great. Sounds delicious. Yucca: What about you, Mark? Mark: Well, yes. I mean, it is, it is midwinter time and it's, you know, the, the souls to season and so forth. So I thought that I would present my recipe for mulled wine or cider. You can make this with, like sparkling apple cider, or actually still Apple cider is fine. It doesn't need to be sparkling, because you're going to, you're going to heat it so it would lose any carbonation. So, I do work with recipes because otherwise, unfortunate things happen. So, I will just kind of go through this. What you do is you start either with your, like a gallon of Apple cider, which can be, I prefer the unfiltered kind, the kind that's cloudy, because it's much more, it's just much more robust and has a lot more of the quality of the apple in it. Yucca: yAnd when you're saying Apple cider, you're talking about, soft for folks with, okay. So you could do this with wine for your alcoholic option, or you could do non alcoholic, apple cider Mark: Apple juice, Yucca: Apple juice. Mark: Okay. What I mean is unfiltered Apple juice. Okay. So, I'll, I'll go through it once for the, non-alcoholic option and then I'll go back. So in this recipe, you have two cinnamon sticks, two oranges that have been zested and juiced ate whole cloves, six star anise, and then four oranges peeled just for the garnish. You just want the peel. So you combine the, all the ingredients except for the orange peel for the garnish in a large sauce pan, and you bring it to a boil and simmer it low over the heat for 10 minutes. Then you let it cool. Pour it into mugs and add a twist of orange peel to each one. So you twist the orange peel to spray the orange oil over the top of the, the mug or glass. And it's delicious. It is really good. Yucca: Did I miss, did you say the volume? What was the volume of Mark: a gallon? Yucca: A gallon. Okay. Mark: Yeah. Now the alcoholic version is pretty much the same stuff, except that you also add a half a cup of honey. So what you need is a 375 milliliter bottle of red or tawny port wine. And then two bottles to 750 milliliter, regular bottles of red wine. A darker red wine, like Cabernet Sauvignon is really good for this. Don't buy expensive wine to do this. Use the cheap stuff. Trader Joe's two and a half bucks chuck is fine for this. So then you add half a cup of honey to that. What you do is in the process, you combine the red wine, the honey, the cinnamon sticks, zest juice, cloves and star anise, and you bring that to a boil and you simmer it for 10 minutes. And then you add the bottle of port wine afterwards. And then you pour that into mugs and use the orange peel to garnish each one. And it's delicious. It's really very good. Yucca: It makes me cozy just thinking about it. Mark: Yes it's with all those spices, it definitely goes right to, all the parts of you that may make you sort of get sweaty. I'm very fond of mulled wine. I wrote a poem about it. I really, I just like mulled wine a lot and I only of course do it at this time of year. So it's one of those special foods that I think about. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Leading up to this season. Yucca: Well, thank you for sharing that with us. Sure. Thank you. I have to listen back to this and write it down. Mark: Well, I can email it to you. You, you have an inside track Yucca: to, yes, that's right. Mark: Actually we could put these recipes in the. Yucca: Oh, yeah, let's do that. So you all have probably already seen that it's in the show notes, but just click down below and you will find these recipes right there. Great. Oh, wonderful. Mark: Right. Well, this has been a meandering exploration of food, paganism, science and recipes. Yucca: Yep. Well, thank you. Mark: Thank you. Hope you enjoyed it.
One of the biggest challenges we face as business brokers is getting sellers to understand that we too are entrepreneurs. Getting people to do a valuation is one of the biggest hurdles because many think that just staying afloat is the goal, and the rest will come later. Sometimes later is too late. Today Joe and Mark are back sharing how to get valuation right. At Quiet Light we work hard to educate and help people find the growth paths that will get them the most value for their business in the event of a sale. We have a ton of experience in giving valuations and can guide current and future sellers to profit. When you build a great business with buyers in mind it will make the transfer so much easier. Episode Highlights: Why a business owner should plan an exit strategy early in the business building process. The benefits and tradeoffs of entrepreneurship. How long in advance someone should plan their valuation. How much it costs to do a valuation. The threefold beneficiaries of the valuation. The importance of the end goal while building. How the valuation process benefits the potential buyer. Ways selling a cohesively built business creates valuable relationships. The level of detail that is essential to a full valuation. Accounting tips for a better valuation as you go. How the valuation process gives owners paths hidden profits. The other three of a successful business How the invisible fifth pillar makes a difference in the overall value of your business. Mark's quick wrap-up of the importance of a valuation. Transcription: Joe: Mark, one of the biggest challenges that we have as business brokers is conveying to people that we're entrepreneurs first. We've all been in their shoes. We're technically still entrepreneurs, right? We run Quiet Light Brokerage. And getting people to get beyond the mindset of running their business and saying I'm not ready to sell I don't to have a conversation about exiting to actually thinking well in advance of an exit is one of the biggest challenges and honestly, it's frustrating. It's frustrating for me and that's why we work so hard to educate and help and we do this podcast so we can get more people thinking well in advance of their exit. But I want to ask you as the original founder of Quiet Light Brokerage, the man with so many stories to tell, why in your opinion should somebody even plan their exit and give it thought well in advance of selling their business; what are the benefits? Mark: Boy that's a big question and I could actually give you a number of benefits and since you put me on the spot I don't have them in order in terms of what I would think would be the most important. But I'll start with this one which I think might not be the most important reason but I think it might be the most applicable for most people. It will resonate with most people and that's this, having a business that is valuable in an exit usually means you have a very valuable business to own. That's the number one reason in my opinion. So let me explain that and flesh that out a little bit. Obviously, if somebody is willing to buy your business for quite a bit of money; let's say they're willing to pay a four-time or five-time multiple, what they're seeing there as a business that is desirable to own, it is going to grow, and it's going to kick off a lot of cash in the future which obviously if you come to me or come to any entrepreneur and say do you want to own a business that doesn't require a ton of work has a lot of upsides and is consistently throwing off money most people would say yes, right? If we talk about the four pillars which we do so often here, do you want to own a business that has a low-risk profile and good growth prospects as the two first pillars? Yes, most of us want to. So the first reason I would say is when you go through the process of planning to sell even if you decide not to sell your business the result of it is that you have a business which is more stable, you know the growth paths available to your business, and you have great documentation in place for the business. So that'll be my number one reason right out the gate. And I don't know if you want to discuss that or I can give you a couple of others if you want. Joe: Yeah well let's first tell the folks listening that there is no special guest today it's you and me and we're going to talk through… Mark: I'm special Joe. You're special. I am special. Joe: Actually, I just gave you hosting privileges on this. Mark: So we're special. Joe: Technically I'm the guest and then I'm not special. Hey, we're not having anybody on today because Mark and I have a ton of experience at this. We do valuations every day so we want to talk about the reason to have one done and then what we do. We'll talk about what goes into it, and what we discovered, and what we learned along the way. So yes Mark if you want to talk first about that first example that you gave an elaborate on it a little bit we can do that and then go into some details on what it's like to get a valuation and what we do here at Quiet Light Brokerage when we put someone through the process. Mark: Oh sure. Actually, I do want to get to the other reason because these are the two that were kind of vying for my attention when you first asked that question. The second reason is that you just really don't know what the future holds. In the 14 years of doing this; at the time of this podcast almost 14 and a half years that I'm doing this, the number of clients that I've run into that are unprepared for the sale is exceedingly high and the number of clients that are unprepared who wish they had planned in advance is almost universal. So if you find that you're unprepared to sell you you've reached that point where you want to and you realize you aren't there yet there's often some sort of regret. It's kind of like thinking about the person who goes into the dentist for a root canal wishing that they had visited the dentist more frequently before. That inconvenience at the time would have paid off. Or for the person reaching retirement age wishing they had done more to plan their retirement. There are so many of these examples where especially entrepreneurs would get focused on the here and now today which is important. Obviously, we need to take care of that without the eye towards tomorrow that when tomorrow comes it often takes you by surprise. For entrepreneurs, we're in such a really cool spot. We have an opportunity to generate income that frankly people in the regular business world or regular careers don't have the opportunity to make. The tradeoff is some of that stability that you would get in the corporate office world and maybe some of the benefits and everything else that goes along with that. But for us, the benefit; the gain is the income potential but also what most people fail to see is the value of the asset that they are building in and of its own right and that alone can lead to early retirement, that can lead to being able to invest in much larger projects, that can be catapulted into something significantly bigger. But it does not happen if you build an asset which can't be sold. And so not only is it good to own a business like this because it follows basic business principles of having a low-risk profile and high growth opportunities and is usually very well documented which is a good thing; it ties into those two elements but it also gives you financial flexibility for the future and also career flexibility for the future as well. And if you don't do it the flip side is you can build yourself a prison which I'm sure you've seen a few people build prisons for themselves and their businesses. Joe: That's very, very hard. You want the independence and life of an entrepreneur and you've built yourself a business prison that you can't get out of and you just can't get ahead. But let's ask this; people ask me these questions all the time, we have a conversation about exits and valuations all the time so I mean I'd just grow you with a few here. Number one how long in advance should somebody do evaluation and plan their exit? We always hear I'm not ready to sell, why should I talk to you now? Mark: At least 12 months, right? I'm working with a client right now and they wanted to do evaluations, see where they're at financially and I said that's great send me your P&Ls and your balance sheets and they did which is awesome. I had a chance to review them and I had some further questions for them. Nothing came back so I bugged them about it and nothing came back. I finally bugged them again and they said well you know what we're doing is we're actually going through and we're eliminating some of these discretionary expenses, we're going to be doing this, that, the other thing and alarms are going off of my head because I see them taking some tax that they probably shouldn't be, right? Okay, I understand where you're going. For example one of the things that they're doing is they're cutting back on advertising spending in order to grow their bottom-line earnings. Well, let me ask you, Joe, what happens when you cut back on advertising? Joe: That's a big no-no. It's convergent graph lines, right? Discretionary earnings go up and your total revenue goes down. Mark: Right. Yeah. Nobody likes that alligator going to the left. Because if you see a graph where the revenue is going down or earning is going up we know that earning is going to go down in the future or to regain the momentum you have to outspend on advertising in most cases. To make it a more efficient one thing but that's on another. So how long; sorry, you asked me a question and you know me, I won't shut up. 12 months at a minimum? I would recommend 24, even 36 if you can just because if there's big changes that you want to make; let's say that you really want to explore that new product line, give yourself some runway to be able to plan that out. Joe: Okay, how much does it cost to do a valuation? Mark: Well it doesn't cost anything. Joe: Why? If it's free what's it worth. I don't understand. What's the business model? You're doing valuations for nothing. Mark: Oh you convinced me. If somebody wants to do a valuation of myself you're going to be paying a lot of money. So for us, it makes sense, right? I mean the number of times when I've started Quiet Light and was working with clients in the early days so many clients were being turned away because; not in saying I won't work with you but I would do the valuation. They say I'm ready to sell my business and I take a look at it and Joe you know the conversation. You and I had this conversation. And I looked at your business and I said okay right now it's worth X but Joe if you wait a little bit time, do some of the things that you're doing right now, actually, you're doing a lot of good things, just wait a little bit you're going to add this much value to your business. Other people it's a little bit different, right? It's hey you know what you have your name, you are a doctor and you are selling an information guide about how to take care of athlete's foot. And your name is plastered all over this. Well, guess what? That's not a transferable business because everyone's buying it based on your name. So I'm going to have trouble selling your business and if we do sell it it's going to come at a discount. But Mr. Doctor athlete's foot if you take your name off of this and show us that it can run for 12 months just as well if not better than it is right now without your name plastered all over it instead of getting maybe a 1½ multiple you're going to get like a 3.2 or 3.3. Joe: And who does that benefit? Mark: That benefits the client. Joe: There are three parties that it benefits. Mark: I'm being quizzed here. Joe: You are being quizzed. So it benefits the guy who's running the business, it benefits Quiet Light Brokerage which is a weird model, right? We do it for free folks but in the long run, it benefits us because you're going to have a more valuable business. But there's this third party that benefits as well and that third party… Mark: Is the buyer. Joe: Right. They might eventually become our clients as well too. So it's an odd model. As my mentor said, Joe, it seems like you guys are giving things away for free on a hope and a prayer that they'll come back to you someday. And I said exactly Walter that's what we're doing and it works very well. We're building relationships and building trust and we're helping first. And strangely the more people we help the more our business grows and the more valuable their businesses become and the more buyers buy great businesses. And it's an endless positive cycle and works very well. With that said I remember being at eCommerceFuel a few years ago and I came back; I sat at the bar with one of the presenters, I cannot pronounce his name. All I know is he swore a lot on stage but he was really good. He was really good and I had a beer with him afterwards and he said something like well I'd have a valuation done but honestly it's free I'd feel like I'm committed to you. I'm obligated to you because I didn't pay you. If I pay you I can just walk away. And it's an interesting viewpoint but we are all about relationships and we want to help. We want to get it done. And the more conversations we can have well in advance of a sale selfishly it makes it a lot easier for us when it comes to the time to list your business. I'm in the middle of a valuation right now where there are two brands in one seller account and there's a royalty arrangement and they have a coaching business and different LLCs. It's just a mess and the add-back schedule is getting deep and long. It's almost as long as the P&L itself which raises the antenna of the buyers. We don't want that. We want to have this clean business presentation as possible. So I'm with you 12, 24, 36 months in advance. Have the conversation. Get an education on the value and the process of maximizing the value of what is likely your most valuable asset. I was having a conversation with Mike Jackness a few weeks ago and we're doing a presentation it was actually at eCommerceFuel and he said the problem is you can't talk too much about exits and planning with these guys. They're doing all they can just to keep the wheels on the bus, to keep revenue going, and not run out of inventory, and do all these different things. I'm like yes, yes, yes, but when they have a clear vision of the value of the business and the view of an eventual exit when the wheel falls off and they've got to put it back on it's a lot easier because they still know where they're going. Otherwise, they're just wandering aimlessly trying not to run out of inventory; solving problems without an end goal in mind which is it's exhausting sometimes. Mark: Yeah and I want to comment on one aspect here about the idea of benefiting the buyer because if you're a business owner you might be thinking well I don't really care about the buyer at the end of the day. I mean I care but when you talk to entrepreneurs and sellers sometimes the approach they take is yeah I hope that the buyer does well with it but that's definitely a footnote compared to what they get out of the sale and understandably so. I'm not criticizing anyone who has that sort of attitude. But in your opinion, Joe why should the seller care about whether or not the buyer gets a good deal? Not a good deal as far as discounted but a good business that they can make a good return on investment on. Joe: Yeah that's actually not very complicated. It's when you do the right thing you will be rewarded. If you build a great business that checks all of the four pillar boxes, that really highlights all of the financial key metrics in a very, very positive way; and these are things that we do in the valuation folks when all of those things are you know 8s, 9s, 10s or a really solid green light guess what? That buyer is going to pay you more for the business. They're going to pay a higher multiple with better terms and it's going to be an easier transaction for you. Most people that are selling their businesses sometimes it comes down to okay like Quiet Light Brokerage we had 2½ offers for every listing that we put out there in 2019. So buyers are liking our listings, they're liking the way the packages are put together because we work with our clients for a long time and sellers sometimes have a choice. And sometimes they want to choose who is going to be easier in the transition afterwards. When you build a great business and you think of your eventual buyer in mind that transition is going to be easy because you've got SOPs in place, you've got a long communication with your broker advisor here at Quiet Light that's going to talk to you about all of those different things and making that transition easier because that's one of the four pillars; the transferability of the business and all the things that generate revenue for it. So now you're asking a short question and I'm giving you a long answer, it's the buyer will pay you more, as simple as that. Mark: The buyer will pay you more. I would also add on there that I think we are quick to dismiss the power of relationships and the people that you're going to meet when you go to sell your business. These are really important things. I had a situation; as you know I have another business besides Quiet Light Brokerage that doesn't take up a lot of my time but I ran into an issue the other day. It was a really complex difficult issue but the seller and I are friends at this point. We know each other pretty well and I hadn't run into this before. So I sent him an e-mail and said hey how have we dealt with this before he came back with a nice long response and insightful and everything else. It was a really good resource for me to have and he and I are on good terms because he's treated me fairly all along and built a business that was worth buying, to begin with. He's a valuable asset and if I ever want to do new things in this space he would be somebody that I would look to partner with because he's already skilled in this area. And when you're selling your business you're typically selling to somebody who is highly skilled and a successful entrepreneur in their own right. Isn't that a good person to have you in your Rolodex? I don't want to overemphasize this point and say this is the only reason you want to do it. I think what you listed Joe what you explained I think that is really where you want to put the focus and emphasis. But there's a whole host of ancillary benefits to creating a transaction that benefits yourself first, the broker who is going to be working with you and your team your partner with you, and also that buyer making sure that they have a business that they're going to be able to succeed with. Joe: Let's talk about what we actually do in evaluation. Mark: Sure. Joe: I'm going to kick this off. One of the first things that; I've got a call this afternoon at 4:00 today I'm doing an initial valuation call with a couple of very experienced entrepreneurs. The first thing we need are financials. So as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, if you're not able to run a profit loss statement with a monthly view going back more than 12 months we're not going to be able to do a full valuation because the full valuation does a year over year comparison. I'm going to look at January of 2020 versus January of 2019 and hopefully '18 and so on. And that's part of the financial key metrics in terms of where the top-line growth trends are, where the advertising cost as a percentage of revenue is, and where it's trending. Is it seasonal? We're going to talk about the timing of listing a business sale. Even if you're looking three or four years out we're going to talk about some of those things and we're going to see all of that with the detailed financials. Now today Walker wrapped up a long email chain between all of us where he had a client trying to do a valuation and get his business listed for sale and all he had were quarterly P&Ls. What's the problem in your view Mark with quarterly P&Ls versus monthly P&Ls? Mark: It's just the level of detail, right? I mean I can go backwards. I can take monthly P&Ls and go over to quarterly and I didn't comment; we had a discussion about this within the company and I didn't comment on it before everything resolved themselves. There are some businesses frankly that I think quarterlies worked really well for and probably better for; businesses with lumpy income benefit from having a little bit larger of a lens that we're looking through to even that out so we can see what the real trends are. But it's good to have that option to be able to go to monthly because you have more detail. What you pointed out Joe and I think it's a very good point is that when you get into the transaction and let's say a buyer places an offer we get past a quarter and let's say that we're month one into the quarter, most buyers before they close on a transaction want to know what the business has done over the past month and that time that they're doing their due diligence. Did it completely blow up while they were doing that final piece of due diligence? So they're going to ask for these updated numbers along the way as they're going through the process. Well if you have to wait two more months in order to close to be able to get reliable updated numbers that's just going to extend your timeline, introduce further risk that something happens and the buyer has to pull out and will disadvantage you in that way. And again the lack of detail when I'm doing analysis on a business for a valuation I love looking at the trends I like looking at year over year trends and really I start to look at the different months. And it's surprising the number of businesses that obviously November December get a spike are pretty high but let's say like home and garden stores often get a bump right around April or May so that'll be a second quarter. Maybe it spans two different quarters and you really get a sense for how does this business breathe over the course of a year. Right? Joe: So we're going to look in great detail at the financials. So we want you to run a profit and loss statement for me to Quick Books or Xero with a monthly view going back as far as you can up through the most recently reconciled month. If it's an e-commerce business we definitely want to get those P&Ls on an accrual basis. If we can't get them on accrual basis because you do cash accounting at some point we're going to have to find a way to flip the land cost of goods sold to accrual. Why? Because if a business is growing like crazy you're taking a lot of cash flow from the business and putting it right back into more and more inventory and that's going to depress your seller's discretionary earnings. And your business is a multiple of seller's discretionary earnings which is net income plus add-backs equals SDE. Mark: Yeah I want to talk about this accrual basis because I'm seeing this more and more. People are hearing us, they're hearing this message, and I'm seeing more and more books delivered to us on a false accrual basis is what I would call it. So here's the problem, bookkeepers don't like to do accrual basis accounting because it's hard. It takes more work. It takes more reporting on a monthly basis. They need to dig in, see what you sold, tie that back to the cost of goods sold, and record that. What I'm seeing pretty commonly here is accountants who make a year-end adjustments for the cost of goods sold. And so what you end up seeing is cost of goods sold seems kind of flat or kind of lumpy all throughout the year and then in December all of a sudden everythings out of whack. It doesn't match up. Speaking about the monthly one of the elements that a buyer is going to evaluate when looking at your business if you're selling physical products business or even if you're selling; you can do this if you're SaaS business as well it's just a cost of sales numbers out of the cost of goods sold. One of the key metrics we want to look at is your business getting more expensive to run; in other words, if you're consistently bringing in 5 million dollars of revenue what does it cost to generate that 5 million dollars of revenue? Are your products getting more expensive? Have you had a discount on those products over time? Are there periods during the year where you have to do one or the other? If you are in SaaS business are the cost of sales going up; your commissions that you're paying out the salespeople if you're on a commission sales basis. You can't get these numbers unless you're on accrual basis accounting. And a buyer, a smart buyer, if you want to sell to a smart buyer will want to see this information to see is this trending in the right direction and if not then we need to work this into the valuation; so monthly accrual. Joe: When this false accrual practice is done it's generally done by a CPA not a bookkeeper because they're doing some adjustments for the end of the year. Although just to be clear everyone if you've got an e-commerce business with physical products you are going to file your taxes on a cash basis. But when you're looking at the value of your business we need it on an accrual basis. You should have a CPA for your taxes. You should have an e-commerce bookkeeper for your daily, monthly, quarterly profit and loss statements. You should not in my opinion or view do that work yourself anymore if it takes you three or four hours a month you're worth more than the $400, $500, or $600 a month that a really highly qualified e-commerce bookkeeper is going to charge you. Mark: Yeah and we've made this point before but I'll make it again. It all depends on how you enter the information or your bookkeeper how they enter the information into whatever accounting software you're using. If you enter the information as an accrual basis you can flip to cash with a click of a button. It's very easy to do. Joe: Very easy, yeah. Mark: If you enter your information into your books on a cash basis you can't flip it to accrual. I mean you can, you're just going to get the wrong numbers, right? The software is stupid in that way. It's going to try and it's going to calculate it but you've entered the data wrong. So if you entered it in as accrual you can file in cash, that's totally fine. But for the sake of accuracy, you should be entering it or having your bookkeeper enter it in as accrual. And ask your bookkeeper this too, when I hired our bookkeeper I asked them; I sent them an interview, a written interview and I asked them to explain what accrual accounting was. I know what it is but I wanted to see could they explain it. And I was shocked at the number of foot keepers that couldn't explain it in a clear, concise way. Joe: It's not hard guys. Just we'll move beyond this make your eye bleed accounting part of the conversation. Look up cost of goods sold accrual formula. That's all it is. It's beginning inventory plus purchases minus ending inventory on a monthly basis. That's ideal. But the point; one last point is that if you spend a million bucks a year on inventory and you're just doing adjustment or a guess we have to flip things sometimes to accrual. If you're off by 1½%, that's $15,000. If you're spending a million bucks on inventory, you're spending a lot of money; you may be doing 4 million 5 million dollars a year in revenue which probably means you're doing $750,000 in discretionary earnings. You might be at a four-time multiple at that point; four times the $15,000 that you got wrong on the inventory is $60,000 that you're not putting in your pocket in the sale of your business because you wouldn't spend $500 a month on an e-commerce bookkeeper. Or you're overcharging your buyer by that 15,000 times four because you guessed on the wrong side and things are going to fall apart or go off the rails in due diligence. So get it right, build trust, and move on. Okay, so first thing we need is a clean professionally done profit and loss statement with a monthly view. We're going to import that into the Quiet Light Brokerage import system. We're going to normalize the P&L. If you've ever looked at our listings folks you can see they look pretty much the same; our profit and loss statements. We do that because we see them in every shape, size, quantity, format, PDF, Excel. I mean it's crazy I'm surprised somebody hasn't mailed in a napkin at one point or another to Quiet Light. Mark: I had a notepad document once on a 20 million-plus business. Joe: We don't want our buyers to see that so we import it. We have an importing process where we're going to pull it in and we're going to analyze the key metrics; the financial key metrics that buyers over the last 14 years have told us this is what we look at. They're looking at top-line revenue trends. They're looking at gross profit, trends, shrinking or growing, and then they're looking at advertising cost as a percentage of total revenue and how it's trending. As Mark said earlier you could be spending a lot of money on advertising in the last six months to drive top-line revenue or the reverse and it all weaves together in a web, right? I've had a listing for sale last year and the seller said I handed my advertising off to a VA in late spring last year and I let him run it and five months in I realize things got out of hand and I pulled it back and took it over myself. We do a recorded interview just like we're doing right now on Zoom. We do it on video, we do it on audio, that's part of the package when a business is for sale. And that question may come up then it also may come up in the written client interview and then guess what it all weaves into the profit and loss statements and the financial key metrics when then you can go and look at the advertising trends going yeah look at that Joe was right in July, and August and September the numbers were up and advertising was 17% instead of the normalized 12% that it's been for the last three years. So you can see those different types of things. I had a situation just last week where I was looking at a profit loss statement where the ad spend went through the roof in December but revenue went down. That tells a story that he's struggling against competition and it's not really working out. He's spending a lot more money but sales are going down and lo and behold January and February are down as well. The numbers tell a story so the first thing we've got to get are the numbers, right Mark? Mark: Yeah. And I'm going to share something here Joe that I think was last week or maybe the week before, you actually did a valuation on Quiet Light brokerage. Joe: I did. Mark: Which was done not because we're looking for a buyer although if somebody wants to offer us 30 million dollars let's have a conversation. More importantly you wanted to look for areas of wasteful spending on our part and also key trends for the business as well. So let's think about this in terms of not selling our business, let's think about this in terms of business owners who want to run their business efficiently. Let's say you take the last three years' worth of your P&Ls and they're done on a true accrual basis and you take a look and you see that your gross profit margins have gone from 60% and they're dropping down to 52%. Now you might know why that's happening, you might know what's going on there but you can also identify that as a trend that if you were to correct that trend it's going to help the business. I worked with a client; I'm actually in the middle of doing a valuation for them and they keyed in on this on their own. They were very proud of this. They said look our gross profit margins are 42% right now but what we did over the course of the past year our revenue is down because of a very explainable reason but what we did is we found a product line. We found a method here to increase our gross margins from 42% upwards to 54%, 55%. We were able to test this on a singular product and it worked well and we plan to expand this. Well look what happened by looking at their margins and understanding the margins and understanding that's an area of opportunity they've uncovered a huge avenue to growth which is replicable and from a valuation standpoint it's great but from a business ownership standpoint, it's even better for them because now they can charge a charge more, pay less. Who doesn't want that, right? So let's exercise; again you asked why should we do a valuation beyond being prepared to sell should that they arise? It's a valuable exercise to do as business owners. Joe: I got an email the other day and it was from somebody named Anthony; let's leave it at that. And he wrote Joe this is really, really insightful. I had certain financial goals in the business and now I realize I'm that much closer to them than I ever was. This is making it so much more exciting to run my business every day which is exactly what it truly is. In that situation we determined, he determined; he came to the table with they've decided to charge shipping on items over a certain dollar value and that was going to add their estimate was $180,000 in additional discretionary earnings over a 12 month period. And then they had renegotiated cost of goods sold, they were going to save about $2 a unit and that was going to add $200,000 in total discretionary earnings over the next 12 months. That's $380,000 right there and with another $400,000 now they're at $680,000 they expect to be adding 2020. It's getting that much closer to their exit goal and it just defogs their window put your high beams on you can really see that much better when you're running your business it makes it that much more exciting. A lot of the things that we do talk about beyond the financials, Mark; it's not just about the numbers folks, it really starts with them. It's funny that it starts with them but that's pillar number four, documentation. Let's talk about the other three pillars briefly, Mark. Go ahead and tell me what the other three are. Mark: Risk, growth, transferability. Joe: It took me a while to remember what all four those are and I'm going to hold this up everybody; anybody that's on YouTube. I still have this on my desk after eight years. It says what they all are right there. Mark: I didn't make it memorable enough. Joe: Risk, growth, transferability, and documentation. Mark: How are you as a student in school? I'm just curious. Joe: Oh I fell asleep in accounting class I tell that story all the time. And the bottom part of that; oh look at that I forgot to turn my phone off you're hearing my Twitter. Mark: I heard a bird. Joe: The bottom part of that note there was that our business is relational, not transactional. I need reminders every day. Anyway, risk, growth, transferability, and documentation; we've talked about number four, risk. I've got a business that should be closing in the next few days and 70% of their revenue is from one SKU. What is that called? Mark: That's product concentration or a single point of failure. Joe: Or a hero SKU or a bad idea or a unicorn; all sorts of trouble. I had a conversation with somebody; a couple three years ago… Mark: Bad idea. Joe: Actually it's a bad idea. Mark: It's not a bad idea if it's sustainable just to be clear but yeah I get where you're going. Joe: Well here's the sustainable part, so there was a gentleman that I was working on a valuation for and he had one SKU that generated 90% of his revenue. And I'm like this is a bad idea. He's like well it's a lot less work Joe, it's very defensible, look at our reviews. I mean he had me convinced that it was actually a good idea. And then guess what happened? Facebook changed an algorithm and they're their ads that were working with no longer allowed and they never recovered. Their business was worth two million dollars one month and the next month it was worth like one maybe; two million, 50% cut just like that and I haven't heard from him so I'm sure it's gotten worse and worse and worse. It's a single point of failure. It's a hero SKU. It's a risk. So, therefore, buyers are going to decrease the value when it comes to the valuation. We're going to do it for you and we're going to tell you what buyers think but it's a decimal point or two or three. So instead of at a 3.2 multiple; I'm going to do some math for everybody, simple numbers at 3.2 if you've got $100,000 in discretionary earning you're at 320,000 in terms of list price. Two-tenths of a decimal point off because of a risk point you go from 320 down to 300 or 300 down to 280. It changes that quickly because of a single point of failure or because of risk in disregard. So that's part of the risk, it's the hero SKU; things of that nature. But there's also age, there are trends, right? So generally we want to have a business that's about 24 months old at a minimum. We sold them for less. There are exceptions to every single rule we talked about here. But 24 months is when buyers start to have confidence and they don't discount the value of the business because of age. The other thing to talk about is the trends, Mark, right? I just had a valuation call last night with somebody I've been talking to for six months. And I can't seem to get updated financials on a monthly basis. That's the challenge. And finally, I get them and we have a conversation. We're recording this on March 3rd. I don't have January and February's numbers. I finally have Q4 and top-line revenues down 25%, bottom line discretionary earnings down 30%. So the value of that business just went from three-point something based upon the numbers down to easily 2.5 on the top side. So it's risk because it's trending down and somebody has to jump in and fix that downward trend, right? Mark: Mm-hmm that's right; yeah, absolutely. And one thing with these downward trends you talked about how quickly the discount, just an observation multiples go down much more easily than they go up. It's hard to prop the value and that multiple upwards but people would discount much more aggressively when they start to see problems such as the concentration or as you said the bad idea. Joe: So it is a bad idea when somebody calls and says hey I'd like to sell, I'd say hey you really can't nobody else will buy it. Bad idea. So we touch risk, we touched on growth; these are the first two, let's talk about the transferability of the business. What are the key components to this pillar? Mark: Yeah, the transferability; the easiest way in my world to think about this is just can somebody step into your shoes today and run the business without having a significant decline. Or maybe another way to think about it would be what's the learning curve of the business, or do you have documentation in place that will allow people to be replaced if needed? The transferability is just that and it can encompass a number of things first of all that affects all businesses would be procedures. The procedures that you have within your company to run it on a day to day basis; how do you handle returns if you have that sort of business, what are some common customer complaints or concerns or questions and how do you handle those; do you have a process set up for that. If you're an inventory-based business what is your inventory ordering process and your forecasting process? That's something that should be in a standard operating procedure. So there's all sorts of SOPs. Outside of those elements, transferability can come into your customer acquisition process and I brought this example up before during this call. If you're a doctor and your name is all over the website for your great athlete's foot cure now you've set up a barrier to transferability because you're selling off your own personal reputation. And unless you're willing to give your name and reputation to somebody else which most people aren't and understandably so you need to get that off there and no longer be the key method for customer acquisition. And the last thing would be licensing issues or other requirements to run your business. We've seen this before. Joe you had a valuation I remember this clear as day at Rhodium Weekend when they were doing live valuations up onstage and somebody came with a business we were supposed to be working quiet with other advisors, everyone was going to do valuations so we could see what it looked like live on stage and what was the result; it was an e-commerce business, what was the result of that valuation? Joe: It wasn't transferrable because they were sourcing product from the old; it was the old school, they were required to have a retail space so the business was going to be very, very hard to transfer. And I want to comment on that. Mark: It used to very common where wholesalers would require that you have a brick and mortar store because a lot of the legacy brick and mortar stores were telling their suppliers don't let these internet people come in and just start selling this and so they would require that storefront but it still exists out there. The other issues that I've seen with these licensing issues would be not only the storefront issue but maybe if you actually have to have a license to run the business. And you see this like; we had this with somebody that was selling high-end hair products. And you think well, what's the problem there? Well in order to sell these hair products you need to have a cosmetology license. And so that's a transferability issue. It cuts both ways though. Transferability when it comes to licensing and then these hurdles does set you up with some defense ability that can actually help your risk profile be lowered; anytime that there's a hurdle to jump over a business if you jump over it you're leaving some of your competitors on the other side of that hurdle, so that's a good thing. But the element that we started off with the SOPs and the documentation of your procedures, it's something that everybody should be able to do and should have in place. What are your common procedures, how do you do it, let's make it easy? I know you have something to say here on this, the last thing that I would recommend people do and I actually just did this with Quiet Light Brokerage for your sake and for other people within the company, diagram your business. Write out everybody who works for your business. Write it out; you can draw it if you like to draw, you can use a graphing software. I used Lucid Chart; very easy to use Lucid Chart for this or just write it out and see who has what roles within your business and how does that look. I'll tell you what it's an eye-opening experience because what you find especially in small businesses is you have people who wear multiple hats. You might find some crossover there as well. So that's where I would put transferability. Joe: Too many people are focused on the top line and very proud of the total revenues that they're doing. But ultimately we're running these businesses to make money and to be profitable and we can help you hone in on that profitability and what your business is truly worth. So we've touched on what we do when we import and normalize a P&L and look at financial key metrics. We've touched on the four pillars which are risk, growth, transferability, and documentation. Within each pillar, there's five to six different points that we touched on in a valuation process and we really get to know this invisible; I call it a fifth pillar. Mark corrects me every time. You don't need to Mark, people know this. The person behind the business; the trust and credibility that they have is that invisible fifth pillar. It's the mortar holding it all together. Are you a good human? Do people trust you? Do people like you? Believe it or not, if you are people are going to pay more for your business. You do make a difference in the overall value of your business. So we do all of these things and then we create a profit and loss statement with a detailed add-backs schedule. We go through that with you and we firm up your seller's discretionary earnings and apply a multiple range to it. This is where it gets into the weeds and we won't do it today on this podcast. I'm actually going to go ahead and record a podcast following this one on the three levels of add-backs. There are six different points to each level and it's very eye-opening. A lot of people don't understand the importance of detailing the add-backs. A few folks are like why do I need a broker for I'm just going to sell to this consumer group that's buying up FBA businesses. You need to understand the add-back schedules so that if you choose to sell directly to them you're getting maximum value for your business or even better the real value for your business; not maximum, the real value. It's okay, you can choose to sell to whomever you want however you want but make sure you're getting your own numbers right and that's what I'm going to share on the next podcast. Mark: Fantastic. Joe: Okay, one more final thing. Mark: I was going to say we're getting close to time here. People are like my drive is done. I'm at the office. Joe: We are. You're so eloquent Mark with your words and your e-mails and all this. I say this all the time and people hear you speak. You speak very, very well so why don't you do one final wrap up on why you think someone should have a business evaluation done through Quiet Light Brokerage and how it's going to help them in the future and then I'll give my two cents as well. Mark: Flattery is not going to get you anywhere Joe. Joe: Tell them what I want you to tell them. Mark: Well that I don't exactly know, I'll tell them what I think. So the question is why should people get a valuation done to kind of wrap this up. Your business is most likely your most valuable asset and if it isn't yet hopefully it will be someday and you should know what the value of it is. More importantly, you should understand what drives the value of your business and also what's holding it back. My favorite part of evaluation when I'm doing one; and actually I've got a call here in seven minutes to do a valuation, it's going to be coming up soon, somebody is taking us up on this. My favorite part of a valuation isn't telling somebody what their business is worth right now because that's usually somewhat predictable. It's being able to tell them what I love about this business and what buyers are going to salivate over is fill in the blank, and this part you've done a great job here, the areas where you're going to have some friction in your sale and it's going to cause a discount on the business are these elements. Now what I'm doing there is I'm really giving some insight into where the business is today but I'm also laying out a roadmap for everybody that I'm doing that for to say if you want to grow the value of this asset work on these elements and you know what if there's an element of your business that's really good double down on it. One of the areas that we've talked about in the past is this pillar of growth, we want them to have lots of growth potential for the business; lots of growth prospects for that business and they need to be real. However, if you have easy obvious growth within your business take advantage of it because I would rather multiply a larger earnings number and get that going up because it's a lot easier to grow your value that way. Doing a valuation will help identify those aspects of your business; where is it valuable right now, what's holding it back, and what's the plan to be able to make it more valuable. You don't have to sell the business. If you do these things you will have a business that is more valuable and you're going to gain insights that you never really thought about. I will challenge everybody if you don't do anything else on this call we've talked a lot about finances so I'm going to change it up. Diagram your business and then feel free to email me if you thought it was a complete waste of time. Joe: Or you can go at Mark@QuietLightBrokerage.com. Mark: Tell me it's a complete waste of time. Joe: Mark with a K. Mark: Mark with a K. The only way it would be a complete waste of time is if you have like two people in your company. But then you know what? Joe: Send him an email. Mark: Yeah, right. But then if you're going to do that diagram out the other people that are supporting you. Your contractors, the vendors, the people that are key for your business to run and take a look at that and you might not gain a whole lot of new insights but you're going to see your business in a way that you've never seen it before. Joe: What you're hearing here from Mark is that we're here to help. We're sharing information with you and giving you tools to make a better decision for your business and for the future when you are ready. If you are ever ready to sell. In no way shape or form are we ever here to talk you into anything. We're going to share the information with you. And that was the reason I chose Quiet Light Brokerage back in 2010 to sell my own business. I talked to three different firms. Two were trying to get me to sign a contract. The third was giving me helpful information to build a more valuable business to sell when I was ready to sell. And that conversation was with Mark. Lastly, don't be embarrassed by the size of your business. Sometimes we'll go to Mastermind groups and someone will; I can tell they're uncomfortable talking to us because they're only doing $100,000 in profit. Are you kidding me? You're an entrepreneur, you've built your own business, you're doing $100,000 in profit which is 40% higher than the national average; I don't know the numbers, I'm going to get a correction on that Joe@QuietLightBrokerage.com. It's huge compared to the national average. Don't ever be embarrassed by the size of your business. The smallest one we sold in 2019 was $28,000. Yes, it was a pocket deal because Brad had a larger listing and the gentleman had two smaller sites he wanted to sell off. They're all shapes and sizes. Our average transaction size in 2019 was 1.1 million. It grows every single year but we go through all different sizes. We want to help you get from that hundred thousand dollar valuation to a million-dollar valuation. We've had clients where they first sold their business at 7,000 then 20,000 then 220,000 and now nine million and the next exit that that particular individual has set is 100 million. We want you guys to achieve your goals and we're going to help you along the way. But we're not going to talk you into a single thing. So reach out go to the website. It's the valuation form or sell form I think it is or it shoot us an email at inquiries@QuietLightBrokerage.com and we'll hook you up with one of the qualified advisors here who are all entrepreneurs themselves. Links and Resources: Quiet Light Brokerage
What is one of the surest paths to substantial wealth? Grow and sell a business. Today's episode is all about Joe's book project, "The Exitpreneurs Playbook." Joe has over 8000 stories to tell about what it's like to buy, what it is like to sell, and ways to outsmart the typical entrepreneur process. Mark is interviewing Joe about this upcoming project, his motivations behind creating it, and how getting to the writing process carried its share of challenges. Joe believes that an exitpreneur should have the tools in hand to start, run, and grow their business for better decision making later on. He is not telling anyone to sell, he is offering them the strategies they need in order to be ready if they do. Episode Highlights: Joe's idea and the process of putting it into book format. Why he wanted to write the book. Reasons exit planning can be challenging for the business owner. The differences between an entrepreneur who is considering a sale versus one who has actually prepared an exit. How businesses often outgrow the founder and smart moves to make before that happens. The importance of reverse engineering to the goal for a better exit strategy. The difference between the entrepreneur and an exitpreneur. How Joe came up with the book title. Transcription: Mark: So Joe I was at an event recently in Salt Lake City and it was in just general kind of a conference meeting room for about 50 people or so and they had a lot of books in this place. And I was intrigued to just kind of look around and see what was there and you'll never guess what book was up on the shelf. Actually, do you want to guess? Joe: Yeah I want to guess. I'm looking around my office, Tools of Titans by Tim Ferriss? Mark: You know what? It actually was in there. Joe: It was in there. Mark: Not the one I'm referring to. Joe: The ONE Thing by John Keller? Now, wait let's call out one of our friends; Superfans by Pat Flynn? Mark: You know I don't know. There were a lot of entrepreneurial focused books so maybe that one was there; I don't know. Joe: Okay. Buy Then Build by Walker Deibel? Mark: Buy Then Build by Walker Deibel; yeah absolutely, that was on the shelf. In fact, they had multiple copies of it. They were giving that book away. And today; what is it? It's February 11th so we're a little bit past a year since Walker launched that book and it spent a year as number one on Amazon Bestseller in this category which is pretty fantastic. I mean obviously, we're super happy for Walker. He won an award for being the thought leader of the year through a major alliance of mergers and acquisition advisors. Joe: Huge. Mark: That is huge. He's had professors from Ivy League colleges come up and talk to him about the book. All of this leads me to something beyond just the accolades and that is the information that's out there in this space about what it's like to sell, what it's like to buy. Walker is talking on specifically which is the buy-side and how to use this as an investment vehicle, how to outsmart the Startup Game as he says and reduce some of that risk. But there's also a whole on the sell-side as well where people don't really know that their business is sellable or they don't think about it. But just yesterday I was reading something on the fastest way to build wealth; what is the fastest way to build wealth? And the conclusion that they had is the fastest way to build wealth is through building a business and selling it. This is one of the quickest ways to actually building wealth. And I know you've had guests on the podcast here who have talked about this process or you call it your Incredible Exits series. I'm really, really excited that you're writing a book on this and you're not calling it Incredible Exits despite everybody else's opinions that you should but it's these stories behind the scenes. Joe: Yeah I'm excited to be writing it finally. I sat down with some friends a year ago probably around a fire pit; maybe a year and a half ago because it was summertime. We're recording this in February of 2020 and I said look I'm making an announcement, I'm writing a book, I'm telling you guys to call me out on it and then I didn't do anything but I tried. I tried to write it. I tried to outline chapters. I tried to follow up… Mark: Hold on one second. You made this promise right on a fire pit with friends? Joe: Yes. Mark: How much did you consume before you made this promise? Joe: I'm a 2-drink maximum kind of guy, that's just the way I am. Mark: Okay. Joe: It's like giving myself an injection of the flu when I have more so it wasn't much. But I didn't get it done. It's a lot of work. So I followed the original book in a box method and didn't get it done at the scheduled time. I was at Brand Accelerator Live with our friend Scott Voelker last September and one of big Scott's announcements was that he actually wrote a book. And it is also here on my desk somewhere; where is it Scott? It's the Take Action Effect. I just turned my head away from the microphone, sorry folks. And I met his scribe; a young lady by the name of Brennan and I connected with her during the event and talked with her and said okay this is it I'm done. I'm hiring a scribe and I'm going to write the book. And I've talked to a number of people about it and let me just cover the process and then answer the question as to why the heck I'm doing this because it's a massive undertaking. The process is instead of actually writing a book myself with written words and a keyboard I get interviewed for I think it was 8 2-hour sessions; so 16 hours in interviews. First, we outlined the chapters and go through the whole process and instead of talking about; I mean writing an article or a chapter on seller's discretionary earnings and add-backs and the three levels of add-backs and all the different things that we talk about on a regular basis Brennan interviewed me. She transcribes the entire interview through UberConference and Rev.com for those that really want great transcription services. And now we're in the sort of lull between all of those interviews and me getting my first draft. They're going to give it to me in thirds. So the first one I will get will probably be I want to say mid to late March and then they'll drip it out in thirds every week for 3 weeks. They want to overwhelm me in terms of reviewing and editing. I still have a lot of technical stuff to add to it but it's really kicked the process into high gear. It's not cheap, let me tell you that. It's an expensive undertaking but I think given what we do for a living and how many people we're trying to help I think it's well worth it. Why am I writing a book? Walker's been an inspiration, very successful with Buy Then Build and the amount of people that he's been able to reach and help on the buy-side. We work with sell-side brokers or sell-side clients for the most part and I've done the math Mark, does it sound inconceivable that I've talked to 8,000 entrepreneurs over the last 8 years? Mark: Not at all. Joe: Yeah and that's probably a conservative number. I'm not saying I've had an in-depth evaluation with 8,000 of them but I have without a doubt talked to 8,000 and that does not count standing in front of a room with 3, 4, 500 people. And the challenge has been we've got to reach them one by one and I know that Walker's book has been as you said best seller. I think it's probably sold over 10,000 copies at this point. Mark: It's over 15 at least. Joe: 15,000 copies? Mark: Yeah, I actually talked to Walker about it a while ago. Joe: I think he told me something like 99% of books sells less than a hundred copies that are published. Now Walker, correct me if I'm wrong but it's pretty impressive. So to get what we share on those valuation calls into somebodies hands before, during, and after they have a valuation call and when they're in an audience that will give them every possible detail that we've developed over the last 8 plus years of doing what we do and sharing that in writing so that they can essentially change their mindset. And that's the goal of the book, it's to change their mindset from reaching out to us when they're sick and tired of running their business or they've had a bump where things get tougher and they say Gosh how can I sell this business? A buddy of mine told me I can get X multiple. I'm going to call Mark and say Mark how much can I sell my business for? I want to change people's mindsets. Instead of saying how much can I sell my business or more often they say how much is my business worth, I want them to say I want to build wealth like you said at the beginning and I want to sell my business for X dollars. I want to do that in 4 years. In order to do that, they need to understand where they are today. And the book is going to help them reverse engineer the path from where they are today to that exit so that they can do a partial valuation, get comfortable with brokers, and drive that path. I had a conversation with Mike Jackness recently and Mike talked about the fact that about what we do sometimes entrepreneurs just don't want to hear it because the idea of exit planning is so beyond what they're trying to do when they're just trying to keep the wheels on the bus, right? They're running out of inventory, they've got competitors coming at them from every angle, they're trying to do cash flow planning and it's just so hard that they can't see out the front window. The objective of the book is to sort of clear that window, have a clear path to an exit that they understand and it's a much better ride. I've been through it myself personally. You did it for me back in 2010. I could see nothing, understood nothing, we had a call, we had several calls and the light bulbs went off and I knew exactly the path to take and I'll tell you what operating my business became a lot more fun and exciting even though I was sick and tired of it after 5 years. Mark: You know the more I experience the business and grow as an entrepreneur the more I'm learning. With anything dealing with a goal really the best way to achieve these things is what you've said, reverse engineer it. Rather than just kind of impulsively decide that I'm going to do something figure out where you want to be and then reverse engineer. But in order to reverse engineer it, you need to understand the mechanisms that are going on to create that value. You're trying with this book to create a shift in the mindset of entrepreneurs, right? By the way, folks if you haven't figured this out we don't have a guest; Joe is the guest. I'm going to interview Joe about the book and maybe we'll talk a little bit about what it is like to do what Joe and I've been doing and everyone else at Quiet Light. Joe: Right, we're co-guests. We're co-hosts and co-guests today because I want to grill you too. Mark: Very good. Alright, I want to start out by saying okay let's talk about your experience. You've been doing this for 8 years. You've done literally tens of millions of dollars of transactions on your own within Quiet Light Brokerage. Joe: I'm fastly closing in on 100 million. Mark: That's right you are. You are; absolutely. Joe: Inaudible[0:11:17.8] 12 to 18 months; pretty shocking. That's amazing. Mark: Absolutely amazing. Talk to me about the mindset that you often see or most naturally see in an entrepreneur that comes to us to sell versus those rare cases of somebody who has planned to sell and what is the difference in the actual process value and stress levels I would say for everyone involved. Joe: Yeah. Look all the success stories that you guys hear about on the Incredible Exits for the most part those are people that had the mindset that they wanted to determine and plan out their exit. They got an education, they figured out what their exit goal was and they called Mark, myself, Jason, Amanda, Chuck, anyone of us and reverse engineer the path to that. They didn't call and say what's your fee, okay I want to list. It was this how does this whole thing work and then we worked with them over a 6, 12, or 18 month period sometimes even more. Those are the success stories that you're hearing about. The people you're not hearing about never sell their business because they call. They might have a call like this or I was just at eCommerceFuel last week as an event and kudos to Andrew Youderian and all the guests and all the people that are there; brilliant, so many smart folks. But even with that high level of entrepreneurial success and drive I still get e-mails like I've gotten this week which is a great chat last week, great presentation. I did a presentation with Mike about the sales of ColorIt. You've really inspired me to sort of try this path to an exit. And then I said okay well this is what I need. Yeah, I don't know I'm so busy with adding SKUs and I'm not really there yet. I'm not ready to sell yet. I'm not ready to think about selling yet. Whereas the yet it should be now regardless of where you are in the business. These people are already doing; the 2 that I'm thinking about where I got the e-mails like the one I don't know his growth. Well, I could do the math on his growth but the discretionary stands out that he's close to 600,000 in discretionary earnings and it is 5 to 6 times more than he ever made in his prior day job. And so he's trying to work towards an exit and retirement. The other was doing nearly 10 million in revenue and had a 25% decline. He's young, he's under 30 years old. And neither of these guys are really ready to exit. Of course, they're not ready to exit but I want them to set a financial goal. I don't care if it's 3 to 5 years from now. Set that goal. I need to exit for X in order to exit. And then figure out where they are, get the education, and work towards that. In 5 years if they're not ready to sell then move the goal post, move it 6 years down the road or 7 years down the road. That is as you said at the beginning the surest way to real financial wealth. But we're not talking about them yet because they're pausing, they're hesitating, they're not going to do it. Those are the stories that I talk about a little bit in the book. There's somebody that was my first million-dollar listing back in the day at Quiet Light. I remember it well. I'm not going to name names. We'll call him Big Mike. That's not his name but we'll call him Big Mike. He had no financials; none whatsoever. And I remember sitting over Christmas break taking all of his bank statements and I actually created the profit and loss statement myself. That is a no-no. We do not do that anymore. No. But I did it. I got it all detailed and accurate and listed the business for 1.1 million. I got an offer for 800 from the gentleman that you sold his business once upon a time. It was actually a good offer because the revenue trends were in decline. And Big Mike said to me well why would I accept it all I have to do is XYZ over the next 12 months and I'll make a quarter of a million dollars and then we can sell the business for 1.2, 1.3 million. And I had a great deal of experience in paid advertising at the time as you know because I just sold my business. This was probably 2012 or early '13. And so we walked through all the possibilities, what to do and how to do it and off he went. The problem was that Big Mike's heart was not in it anymore. He had run up all of his personal debt and personal expenses; his overhead was very high. He lived the life of a very, very successful entrepreneur and his business was no longer trending that way so money was getting tight. He didn't have the ability to pull money from the business and put it into the ad spend that he needed to to reverse it. And so every year for the following 3 years I got any mail from Big Mike that said something along the lines of hey my revenue and profit is at XYZ, can we sell the business for this? And each year it went from that offer from Tony of 800 to the value really was in about 600 the next year. And then the next year he sent me an e-mail it was really based upon what he had given me, about 500. The last time he sent me an e-mail it was about 400. Every single time I replied with based upon what you've given me which is just an email with numbers and I'd say your business value was probably X. Please run a profit and loss statement out of Quickbooks or Xero and export it to Excel with a monthly view. Silence, nothing for 12 more months because he didn't take the necessary steps to do what you have to do in protecting your most valuable asset, in his case his business. And so he's probably got a job, unfortunately. And that's the path unfortunately too many people go down or they learn from the mistakes and they hang up their hat on this particular business. They can't sell it and they move on to another one and hopefully learn from that mistake but it's a painful one. I just want to see people learn from that and therefore the painful process of writing a book. Mark: You know it's great to focus on the success stories. We like success stories. I like talking about success stories that make me happy. But for all these success stories that you have shared so far through the podcast that you'll be sharing through this book we also have the stories like that. And I could probably rattle off a number as well. Maybe I'll start a new podcast or write a book called Unincredible Exits or Nasty Exits or something like that. It will be real depressing and no one will ever want to read it. But you're absolutely right in; that example is really good. That example shows what we see so often from entrepreneurs where they're running; they're used to the hustle, they're used to the grind, they're used to being able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps to be able to correct something but sometimes when a business gets mature especially after you've run it for a while doing that can be really, really difficult. I also think it's; I want to re-emphasize something you said which is the picking number, reverse engineering, and getting to that number doesn't mean that you have to sell at that point. We've been pretty public and I will continue to be public by saying that the best scenario for you is to create a business that you can own for your life, right? Because it's difficult to start a business; the cash flow that they build is great, the value that is in them as assets is also fantastic. So I'm a big believer in building and holding or buying and holding and growing but that doesn't mean that exiting shouldn't be an option. And so when you hit that number, if you're not ready to sell you can always move the goalposts as you suggested or create a new goal. But something that I know you've told me in an email where we were discussing this book is you said one of the goals is to not allow the business to outgrow its founder. And boy this is an issue that comes up time and time again that we see and that is business owners were really good at starting, really good at founding something and even growing it to a certain extent getting to a point where making that next shift is difficult. I always describe that the growth path of a business is a series of climbs and plateaus. You climb to a point and it starts to plateau and then you have to change the business a little bit. Maybe you have to add new people; maybe you have to add a different structure to the business. And once you do then hopefully you start climbing again and then you hit another plateau and then it's another shift or another restructuring of the company or maybe a new initiative. What point and is there any examples that you've seen where somebody has hit that point where business is just about to outgrow them and they were smart enough to be able to not let it do that? Joe: Yeah the climbing the plateaus, by the way, let's not forget the valleys, right? Yes, my name is Joe Valley but… Mark: Don't forget the valley. Joe: There are two valleys here, right? It's a climb, it's a plateau, and then boom there's a really nasty valley right there and you're in it. You got to climb out of it. That's why I think it's important to actually do something that you like; something that you enjoy a little bit. It could be something that you're passionate about because when those tough times come and as an entrepreneur they will unless I'm unique and nobody else has tough times. I don't think I'm unique. You're going to have to fight and climb back out of that valley and on the other side there's a mountain, a peak; not a plateau hopefully. And those are great success stories to tell and very sellable businesses. But the idea of a business outgrowing the founder is not original, right? I mean this is something I've seen throughout my own entrepreneurial life where I used to do radio advertising. I owned a radio direct response media buying agency back when there were 800 numbers associated with 60-second spot ads. I could have held that business and grown it but it would have required more and more overhead in terms of people. I don't like managing a lot of people. I tell you what your job is and how to do it and I expect that you're going to work hard and do the best you can. If you don't I'm kind of blunt unfortunately and fortunately in some ways. So if you're in a situation and I see this a lot where buyers sometimes naively say well if it's so great why are they selling it? And it is because the business more often than not has outgrown them. They wanted to live the 4-hour workweek. It turned into 30 and that's okay. And they've got 5 VA's and that's okay. But in order to take it beyond just a SaaS business that's doing 2 million in revenue, they need to hire 3 more developers. They don't want to go through the headache and hassle of that. Or to take it off of Amazon they need to learn SEO offline or email marketing or whatever it might be and that's not their skill set. Or it's hiring people and that's not their skill set. And they learned that one of the greatest ways to earn wealth is to sell a business. Now people that buy Walker's book have learned that they can; a different breed, a different mentality of an entrepreneur comes in. They're not the startup entrepreneurs. They come in and they take over where that startup entrepreneur left off. The business has outgrown them and they hand it off to somebody like Matt Howeth who can. He comes from the corporate world. He's always had lots of travel, lots of staff, and lots of hours. He gets it. He can take it and bring that business in and have a team of employees, a team of VA's and manage it and take it up to the next level because that's his passion. That's what he does. He gets it. The startup is not his passion. It's not his skill set. So one of the things that I think is critically important and sometimes this only comes with age and mistakes and failures and successes and that is to figure out who the hell you are. What kind of entrepreneur are you? Mark: That brings in mind 2 clients I've worked with in the past 14 years now. And one of them; I've quoted this story before but he came to me with a business, I've never talked to him about sharing his story so I won't say what he was selling. But he was selling a physical product. He had initially acquired this business for 5 figures, like a mid-5 figure level and immediately grew the business significantly to the point where it was doing 7 figures in top-line revenue, mid-6 figures in discretionary earnings and so when he gave it to me to sell one of my very first questions was why are you selling? You've been growing year over year, you're only adding value to the business, this looks like a fantastic business, you've got great rankings, great positioning great pricing; all these things working in your favor and he said well right now I store all of the inventory in an external garage on my property. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, my son and I go out and we fill orders. It's really nice. It's like I don't have any more room for inventory and if I wanted to get another space I'm going to have to hire somebody and then I'm going to have to hire more people to handle the marketing. I just don't want to do that. I would rather cash out and move on. Meanwhile, another entrepreneur that I've dealt with, he was a CPA by trade and loved being on the buy-side and what he really, really enjoyed was taking a business that was somewhat complex, somewhat messy, somewhat inefficient in the way it was run and simplifying it. And I love; I've sold a couple of businesses for him, I love taking a look at where his businesses started. Their P&Ls were these super long crazy messes and by the time that he was ready to sell they were consolidated down into less than 30 lines because he simplified these businesses, really focused on this principle of 80:20 and said I'm going to just focus on what really makes sense and I'm going to get rid of all the rest of it. For him the act of cleaning it up was great but he would; unlike with Walker's book which is a lot of buy, build, and grow, his was I'm going to buy make more efficient and then I'm going to sell. And he did this several times and it was really fun to watch because he knew who he was. That first seller that I had, he knew who he was. He knew he didn't want to have a staff he had done that and didn't want to do it again. He loved running the business with his son. The second entrepreneur, he was a buyer, he knew what he liked, he also didn't want to have a large staff. There are other people out there that do want to build that team. There are people out there that say I want to have 100 million dollar exit so I'm going to buy a bunch of these businesses and build something or I'm going to acquire 15. They're all different types of entrepreneurs and everyone has different skill sets. Knowing who you are I think that right there is a great bit of advice but going back to what you were saying earlier Joe if you're so busy and in the weeds constantly and just running and hustling and hustling and hustling and never taking a moment to step back and to think about either the exit or about maybe this topic here of what type of entrepreneur are you, where do you want to see yourself in the next 5 years, what type of business operation do you want to have it's really hard to know where you're going and then your business drives you instead of driving your business and your career drives you instead of you driving your career. Joe: Yeah. Walker's book takes the mystery out of buying a business and the how-to and building it beyond that hence the title Buy Then Build or what he coined as acquisition entrepreneurship. My book The Exitpreneurs Playbook is going to take the mystery out of selling your business and setting those goals on what your exit is and reverse engineering a path to that. Now that I've said the title can we make fun of me in terms of predicting I don't know the future doom and gloom of this title because I did the opposite of what everybody told me to do? Mark: You know what? I like it. I remember doing this when I picked the Quiet Light Brokerage logo. I did 99 designs and I had everyone vote on different types and I hated what everybody chose. So I'm like well it's my business so I'm going to do my own thing. Joe: And you know it's a check, check, send something; I don't know, it must've been fall of last year and email out something about the Quiet Light logo and how it has stood the test of time so kudos to you. Yeah so I sent an e-mail out to a couple of dozen past clients that I sold their businesses and they're going to be part of the book. So part of the book is education and part inspiration; inspiration with them sharing some golden nuggets, wisdom, experience things that they wish they did differently. So I sent it out to them and then another say dozen of influencers that are in the space. People that we know well like Mike Jackness, Greg Mercer, Andrew Youderian, Ezra Firestone, things of that nature; people of that nature. And I think out of roughly 25 people Jason Yellowitz is the only one who said he liked Exitpreneur. Everyone else said Incredible Exits, Joe, it just rings, it rings. And there's been something about the term Exitpreneur that has stuck with me during the interview process and the more I said it out loud the more Brennan and I, and again she's my scribe, the more it just felt natural. Because that's what people are becoming when they sell their business, they're exitpreneurs. The difference between an entrepreneur and an exitpreneur is an entrepreneur is somebody that runs their own business but an exitpreneur is somebody that runs their own business and they have the knowledge and a plan. And I want to give them that knowledge in order to devise a plan and become one of those people that generate most of their wealth from an exit. So fingers crossed on that. Can I do a shameless plug right now for the Quiet Light Podcast where I think we're about 25 minutes in and just a little bit of a shameless plug? I have to tell you… Mark: I felt like this whole thing was a shameless plug for your upcoming book. Joe: I know but I don't even; I haven't even put up a website yet. There's no Facebook group. Really what it is, is a plug for education because part; in truth, I've said the same thing 8,000 times over and over. Maybe I'm just tired of saying it so I'm… Mark: With that Joe when I was on this trip recently I was in the airport and thinking about Mission, Vision, Values for Quiet Light Brokerage and I don't have the vision statement out yet but this component of education, if it's not part of our main vision it's definitely one of our core values and really something that I've built up. I was speaking to somebody just this morning before we recorded this about one of the goals or one of the mission; I'm sorry one of the core values of Quiet Light is to give entrepreneurs the right education and the right set of tools to be able to make good informed decisions. Because when I sold my business I didn't feel like I had that. I felt like I was misled. I felt like I was put in a position where somebody wanted to get me in an exclusive contract, promised me big bucks, and then when I went to go sell I was completely unprepared. I didn't know what was happening and so when I started Quiet Light the goal has been from day one not to tell anyone to sell but to give them the tools so that they know what their business is worth today, what it could be worth in the future, what's driving its value so that you can just make a good decision. That's your decision. So the education piece and I joke about this being a shameless plug; the reason that I'm excited about this, and I genuinely am excited that you're writing this book is because that education piece needs to be out there. And I love the idea; more than the idea, love the opportunity that we have to educate entrepreneurs of what's available to them if they transition from an entrepreneur to exitpreneur, understanding that, the bulk of the wealth that you build in your lifetime for most entrepreneurs will be at that exit. That might be 2 years from now, that might be 20 years from now, either case it's fine but having that plan to maximize that value and keeping the process smooth is important. Sorry, I totally cut you off of that but I want to emphasize that the education piece is really what I'm super excited about. Joe: Now we were going to do 2 parts of this podcast, a little bit on the book and a little bit about the philosophy behind Quiet Light's foundation and how you built the company and the entrepreneurial approach. So let's do a; I think we should do an entire podcast on this business and how it's built with entrepreneurs helping entrepreneurs just to educate people more about who we are, what we do, and why we do it because I think it's necessary and you've done an incredible job with the model. But in terms of the education, I got a voicemail yesterday and this is the type of thing I want everybody out there that thinks they don't have time to do it and they're just keeping the wheels on the bus so to speak, take the time to make time for planning your exit using the educational tools that we provide whether it's this podcast or articles or Walker's book on my eventual book or having a conversation because that's an education tool. Have a conversation with an adviser at Quiet Light. Really do it. But I got a voicemail from somebody who I sold businesses for, very, very well off financially, runs a family office now, bought a business from Walker for around 8 million dollars in 2019. And he heard the podcast on product innovation, product development with Zack at Gembah. And he just left a voicemail yesterday saying hey man I just want to let you know on the way back home from Austin I got a chance to meet with Zack and we're going to go ahead and do some product innovation, product expansion, adding a number of new SKUs and accessories to the brand. I really appreciate it. I don't know if enough people tell you that we actually use the tools that you share so thank you. It's great to hear that. So thank you sir; I'm not going to say your first name, for reaching out and letting us know. For the rest of us this is the shameless plug part and I've said this, I said this at Blue Ribbon Mastermind and I said it in eCommerceFuel, Mark you and I have done now I think it was 114; I checked this morning, podcasts. So that's how many are up on iTunes. We've got a total of 31 reviews. They're all huge close to 5-star reviews. Thank you, everyone, who has given us reviews. I wasn't aware that we had any at all because we hardly ever plug it. And so I was at Blue Ribbon Mastermind talking to David Wood who will be a guest on the podcast in a few weeks. He's a personal coach and a good friend of Ezra's and he said something about he was on 70 podcasts last year and he chose which ones to go on based upon the number of reviews. So I checked ours. We have 31; pleasantly surprised. I checked the EcomCrew, Mike Jackness and he's got 81. So I stood on stage at Blue Ribbon Mastermind and I said everybody come on now Mike's not here, I want one more reviews than Mike has. He's been doing; I think he's done 3 times as many podcasts as us so we're doing okay. But please if you enjoy the podcast, if you like the podcast take a minute and go to iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you're listening and pop in a review. We greatly appreciate it and share the information and wealth with all the others that need it. Mark: Yeah. There's a video out there and I don't know if we're going to be posting it on our YouTube channel but there's a video out there of you making this plug at Blue Ribbon Mastermind and Ezra is standing there with you and he's thinking this is what you're using the stage time for? Like you have the opportunity to talk about what Quiet Light does and all you're doing is trying to beat Mike Jackness and like absolutely I'm trying to beat Mike Jackness that's it. Joe: We won't be sharing that video. That's not ours to share but I shared it with the team and had a good laugh at myself because of it so no doubt about it. Mike's a great guy. Ezra is a great guy. We don't mention people that we don't like obviously so if we've never mentioned you oh boy that's a long list; oh no, I can't say that. Let's just say thanks; final thanks, Mike Nuñez. Thank you, Mike. Mark: Yeah, Mike Nuñez, absolutely. I think that's a great way to end up this episode here. Let's do one in the future about the building of Quiet Light Brokerage and I'd also love to get feedback from people that have listened this far through this episode and are listening right now. Are there topics that you'd like to hear us talk about outside of bringing guests in? And we can bring on people within Quiet Light Brokerage, bring in Walker on the podcast again or Chuck or Brad or any of the many entrepreneurs that are working with Quiet Light Brokerage. Anything you want us to talk about specifically when it comes to buying or selling? We'd love to know, we want to produce content that you guys wanted to hear so feel free to hit me up Mark@QuietLightBrokerage or Inquiries@QuietLightBrokerage as well. Joe: Awesome. Thanks, everyone. Links and Resources: Quiet Light Brokerage
Getting control of your business is the key to navigating towards a profitable future. The most common obstacles for successful eCommerce businesses are inventory and cash flow. Today's guest is an expert in providing forecasting tools to help skirt those obstacles to grow your business and prep for a successful exit. Scott Deetz was one of the advisers whose input was crucial to a successful overseas deal we discussed on a previous episode. In this episode, we explore the ways Scott's forecasting techniques have fact-based evidence to support predicted ROI for potential buyers. Scott is the founder and CEO of the Northbound group, a company that helps eCommerce businesses uncover the value in their businesses and prepare a successful exit. With a background in corporate transactions, Scott got into the amazon selling space in 2013. He soon realized his interest remained where it had started, in mergers and strategic advising. He now spends all his time assisting eCommerce businesses on how to maximize the value of their company for either keeping or selling. Episode Highlights: Whether forecasting is based on a wish and a prayer or if there is science and methodology involved. The importance of forecasting as a regular part of any growing business. How Scott's tools can help establish the supplier as a partner and diminish cash flow problems. How the forecasting can change the discussion on strategy. The value of the planning and structuring a deal around the forecasting. The buyer's effective multiple and what it means for their purchase process. The importance of speaking the buyer's language. Scott reveals the levels of building from forecasting. How hard data coupled with owner wisdom can the best formula for forecasting as well provide a roadmap for a successful exit. Transcription: Joe: Mark, one of the things or a dozen of the things that I always see happen with entrepreneurs that we speak with is that everyone runs out of inventory, everyone has cash flow problems, in fact I was just on a call prior to recording this podcast with someone that does an amazing job with their business to the point where it's growing 150% year over year which causes what? Cash flow problems, inventory problems. I did a webinar yesterday and one of the questions was have you ever run a stock? Yes, no, or I'm so amazing I never run out of stock. Oddly enough no one checks the third option which is really good. But a lot of people run out of stock. It seems to be the status quo. I understand that you had our friend Scott Deetz on the podcast talking about forecasting, talking about cash flow management; what it does for your peace of mind number one but inventory management and how you can use all of these forecasting tools to renegotiate with your suppliers to build a more valuable business and to grow it with more confidence. How did the call go? Mark: Yeah. So, Joe, I know the podcast episodes that you do are so well packaged that you have an amazing podcast, right? I just want to start out with that. You have an amazing podcast and you package these together so well with their incredible exits series that you've been doing and actually, in all honesty, it is a really good series that you've been doing where you're interviewing some sellers. With my less desirable or appealing package, I've been doing essentially the same thing with the UK deal. We really had Joseph Harwood on. That episode aired I believe in August and we talked about Joseph's exit as a UK company. And one of the things that we brought up on that call was how many advisors helped us through that process. Well, Scott was one of these advisors and I'm going to also have another podcast with one of the other advisors on that that helped us through that. One of the crucial aspects for shows of sale, one of the things that really made it run was the forecasting that Joseph and Scott did with the business now forecasts. A lot of us see them and think they're just kind of a wing and a prayer and they're kind of hoping and hey, if my rosy assumptions work out this business, is going to have a hockey stick amount of growth. And so they get discounted quite a bit. I remember I spoke to somebody else about this; Andy Jones from Private Equity Info and we asked him about forecasts and he said look you look at forecasts they are all hockey sticks. I guarantee the buyer is going to do their own forecasts. Well, Scott has a different approach to forecasts. They're very very conservative. He ends up doing scenario analysis to see Scenario A, Scenario B, Scenario C; one's very pessimistic, ones very optimistic, one is what they actually expect to happen and there's actually a methodology here. Now we spent the first half of this call going over why is this important. He explained how he uses this to negotiate supplier terms that don't pinch the supplier but actually help a partnership with that supplier. He talks about how it was crucial for Joseph having the ability to order a really sizable amount of inventory as we're going into a busy season so that he didn't run out. And then finally we talked about how it has an impact on the actual selling process. And he brought up a point; super simple, you and I talk about this all the time, when you're talking to a buyer for an online business you need to be able to speak to the return on investment they're going to get. And their buyer is constantly doing that sort of analysis. Well, Scott was able to go through an analysis that was based on reason and logic and numbers and it had been refined if we could take a look historically to see here's what we were forecasting, here's how close we were, right? We were off and so we've modified our assumptions. So about half of it is on why the second half is on how and kind of giving people a little bit of a jump start on how to actually do forecasting. And it's something that I would highly recommend. We had Ben Murray on from the SaaS CFO and he talked about the importance of forecasting in a SaaS business. So this is a really important thing for any online business and frankly any business to start doing. Joe: And these guys are all connected with running multi-million dollar businesses that will have a multi-million dollar exit. And that's they've; I want to say grown up into forecasting. A lot of people bootstrap things and sort of do the best they can. Those that hold on long enough or mature enough to get to the forecasting part. I think it makes a huge difference. The folks that I just had on the call prior to this they've got an incredible business and they've grown up into that as well. I think that this podcast will help them tremendously. I know Scott personally he's a great guy, very smart, very very good at numbers so let's jump into it. Mark: But before we get there, I just want to throw out there to the listeners in case you didn't catch it. Mark Doust is an expert at very subtle wise assery; here's why, I told him I was going to read this quote, quote-unquote this is from a listener, a guy named Chris Rock is his last name. Thank you, Chris. I just want you to know you are my favorite listener at this point. Quote, I've been impressed by several podcasts with Joe Valley; no space there for Mark Daoust, no mention of Mark Daoust at all, Joe Valley and we'd like to set up a call this week to discuss the process and valuation. Thank you, Chris. You are my favorite without a doubt. Let's go to the podcast. Joe: I was being sold. I just want to make it clear. Mark: Alright here we go. Scott Deetz, here we go folks. Mark: Alright I'm really excited this week to have Scott Deetz on. Scott you and I worked together for a long time and frankly it's been way way too long for this to even happen. I should've had you on the podcast probably a year ago or so but I don't know if you've listened to the podcast at all. We have a tradition of guests introducing themselves mainly because we don't do show prep so I'll hand it over to you. Why don't you introduce yourself to the audience? Scott: Sure, perfect. Yeah, I'm excited to do this Mark. So my name is Scott Deetz. I'm with Northbound Group which is a company that I founded. I was an Amazon seller starting in 2013. I was ASM3 for folks that may know what that is and I got into the Amazon selling side of things but my background has been in more corporate transactions, mergers, and acquisitions. And once I got into the industry for a little bit, I realized that I liked helping people and looked at the industry and thought I could help people in a series of ways with strategic finance and with corporate development work and with being, in essence, a strategic advisor to people that may want to consider exit strategies as well. So I started Northbound Group about three years ago and now that's what I do full time; it's just assist Amazon and other e-commerce businesses on how to maximize the value of their company for whether they want to hold it or whether they want to sell it. Mark: Yeah. And you worked on; actually, we worked together on Joseph Harwood's deal. We had him on the podcast a few weeks ago talking about how to sell a UK based business and that was a complex transaction. We talked a lot about that on that podcast about how complex it was at least compared to what we typically see in the spaces as to how these transactions go. The topic that you and I are going to discuss today is forecasting. And I really think with Joseph's business and the way that we presented that business to potential buyers there was so much that it hinged on the forecasting that your group did to be able to say what are we looking at for sales coming from the future. Now this is a bit of a touchy subject because within Quiet Light we don't rely on forecasts all that much, right? We would never sell or trade necessarily on a forecast on its own. However, your forecasts were a bit different than what we've typically seen in the past. If I could just kind of put it bluntly most forecasts that we see are kind of a wish and a prayer. If someone is saying hey here's what I like to do over the next twelve months or it's even more simplistic than that; well this is what I did the first three months of the year, a straight-line projection shows that it's going to be this so that's going to be my forecast. And it's just very unreliable and that's why we've never used it. Yours tended to have quite a bit more specificity and we really put a lot into that forecast including structuring the deal around the forecast as well which meant that our client, in this case, Joseph really believed the numbers that were coming out because he was riding a lot on that. So I wanted to talk about forecasting and I want to start out with just kind of a basic question, is it just a wish and a prayer to say this is what we're going to be doing in the future? And again this is a softball question. I'm leading you into the answer pretty easily here. Or is there actual science and actual methodology here where we can use these forecasts with some level of reliability? Scott: Yeah. So to me, that case study really showcased the power of how forecasting can ultimately affect the amount that you receive for your company. But I would say the short answer to your question is if an Amazon seller came to me and said would I rather have a simplistic forecast than no forecast at all I would say yes. But the answer to it really is that I think forecasting is not a one-time event but something you implement. So, in other words, people don't build a forecast and then it collects dust. You implement a forecasting methodology in your business that is continually being updated as new information is coming into the business. And when your self as an owner or when an outside party can see that not only is it a science and it's around a tool but it is also an ingrained methodology for the business, I think that's really when the power of forecasting takes hold. And particularly in Joseph's case, for example, the first forecast that we built and if he was on the call we would laugh together, it started out like you would expect. I have no idea. Let's put some numbers on a board. Let's start looking at it. Then we started implementing it on a regular basis and we would get it down to the point to where we could update a complete forecast for the business in under 60 minutes. And every time that we realized we were either short of our forecast or over our forecast we started tweaking it and we got more and more and more accurate so that by the time that we, for example, got in front of a potential buyer for the business the buyer could sense our confidence in the forecast and obviously then that in turn gave them their confidence in the forecast and ultimately helped facilitate the transaction. Mark: And I want to get into methodology here in a little bit but I want to start at a maybe a little bit of an earlier point because we talk a lot in Quiet Light about how having a good exit strategy and preparing a business for sale often gives you a really good business to own, right? And this exercise of forecasting is not just for an exit. It's actually really good from a business ownership standpoint. What are some reasons that people should be implementing forecasting as a regular part of their business? Scott: Yeah. The easiest way I can answer that is that I say there is no cash flow planning without forecasting. Mark: For anybody out there by the way it felt like a good rhyme. Scott: It does, doesn't it? Yeah, there is no cash planning without forecasting or something like. But everybody out there that is in this industry struggles with the fact that as you grow because you have to front a lot of your inventory oftentimes or at least a portion of that you have to invest in the business. Everybody is doing this dance between growth and having enough cash to grow. A forecast fundamentally is the link between the two that doesn't look at what your accounting numbers were in the past but looks at what the next six or twelve months forward of your businesses and we'll answer the question for you do I have enough cash to succeed? And the way I look at if you use Xero or Quickbooks or a good accounting program is very simply that gives you a gorgeous picture of what's in the rearview mirror but you don't drive your car based on what's in the rearview mirror, you drive your car based on what's out in front of you. And really what forecasting is that capability. So whether you ever want to sell your business or not if you want to have an accurate cash flow of your business you by definition have to be good at forecasting. The second reason that I think that it's really really critical is because forecasting helps you determine where you're making your money and where you're not making your money. So very often in our forecasting tools that we have built for Amazon sellers, we'll build a forecast for people and it doesn't only forecast the revenue but it forecasts the profitability. And it's not uncommon at all for example to see somebody who's selling a product in the US that's making a great amount of profit and they take that same product and when you add the VAT or other costs in the UK it's not profitable at all. So why put the gas pedal down so to speak and grow an area of your company that's not as profitable? So I think it's really helpful in two things; well three things actually, the first one is cash flow planning, the second one is analyzing your profitability, and then the third one is once you have an accurate forecast we have found it's the single most important thing to help you get better supplier terms. So when we go negotiate with suppliers on behalf of our clients or we give them the tools to do it themselves we are incorporating forecasting to show the suppliers a forecast that they then believe. And if your supplier believes an accurate forecast then what they'll do is they'll say to you, okay wow we're going to grow this much. That is the basis for the conversation of getting payment terms after shipping. And it's also the basis for being able to ask for a better price for your product. So those are really outside of even selling the business; as far as running the business those are the big three. Mark: Yeah. This idea of cash flow planning; I mean the number one problem with Amazon businesses is what it's cash flow, right? I mean people are growing, their business is growing and they're putting all the money back into inventory and I think a lot of Amazon sellers are really just sticking their thumb up in the air and saying okay I think I should order this much. Maybe there's some level of estimation going on there. But the number of people that we see the number of businesses we see where they have inventory shortages or they have a busy season and they end up ordering too much and so they're sitting on just a big pile of inventory that's there for another year waiting for the next busy season. I mean it's kind of a rule; it's not an exception that we see this. Your supplier terms that you mentioned in the third point that plays into this cash flow problem as well. I don't want to get into the details of exactly what Joseph's structure with his business and his supplier terms but suffice it to say he eliminated all of the cash flow issues that you would normally have with an Amazon business because you guys were able to negotiate really good terms with the suppliers. I assume that was based on the forecast that you're able to put together. Scott: Yes absolutely it was and the key part that we were able to do was bring in the supplier in essence in partnership and have them realize, and this is what I'd recommend anybody that's listening to this, this is not about beating up a supplier. This is about being upfront with them and saying if I had no cash flow problem this is what the growth potential would be for the products that I sourced through you. We were able to make that case with this particular supplier. And in essence, it rapidly accelerated the growth of the business prior to then ultimately exiting the business because we eliminated the cash flow problem which also became a competitive advantage against other people that had cash flow problems because when they run out of inventory we get our sales. So it's absolutely critical and the number one reason that a lot of suppliers don't want to give better terms is because like you said they don't trust that either the business will sell that many units. So then if they know the business doesn't sell the units they may be stuck with them. Forecasting helps eliminate that concern and we were able to go to the supplier and say look at all of these trends, look at all of this information if we sell this many units of these many products this is how fast we could grow. But the problem is we don't have the cash to order that many units, can you help us out? And ultimately we are able to come to a very favorable situation for frankly both the supplier and for Joseph. Mark: Yeah. This idea of profitability as well. I mean this is just a common area where we see a lot of waste being spent on ASINs that frankly aren't that profitable. And these are the areas where people are spending time, resources, maybe they're spending money on this and it's really just diluting what their efforts should be as well. So this idea of going back I liken it to something that again we preach over and over at Quiet Light which is it starts with having good books, good data that you can go back and look at. Personally in my personal life like when I review my finances and if you do this at home and you look at your credit card statement, how many times have you looked at your credit card statement and you look at something and say oh my gosh I have this subscription; I didn't even realize I still had this subscription on there, right? Going back over and over again and like you're doing revising assumptions of what the business is doing helps you think about your business more critically in a different way than maybe we would normally think of you know especially with a product-based business you're thinking about product variations, you're thinking about customer service, how can you make that customer experience better but maybe not thinking strategically about your business as you might want to. And I know with Joseph's business looking at his inventory purchasing history he made a couple of purchases in there which I looked at and I just thought oh my goodness this guy is brave. Because he was taking huge chunks of inventory on at the time but he was able to do that because you guys had worked on this and he felt very confident about what was coming up plus he got great supplier terms that came with kind of a safety point there. Scott: We simply would not; two notes on that, one without going to the suppliers for the supplier terms we wouldn't have been able to grow as fast because we wouldn't have wanted to take on the personal risk that comes when you sign a letter of credit at a bank or anything like that. You've got a personal guarantee. So good supplier terms allowed us to have a business partnership that while we had a good-faith guarantee that we were going to pay them for that it's not the same as putting up your house or putting up all of the other assets that you have in the business. And forecasting was sort of a key aspect to that. Here's the other thing and I've seen it go the opposite way as well and I always like to stress this is that if somebody is thinking about eventually selling their business you have to understand that every dollar of profit in the year that you sell costs you three to four times as much. Because when you apply the multiple to your valuation if I am a company that's making $200,000 a year and they go out of stock and that stock going out of stock costs them $10,000 of profit. You not only lose the $10,000 of profit because you went out of stock you lose three times that amount and if your multiple is three and we're not here to discuss multiples. But the point is that just going out of stock we had somebody that we work with that went out of stock during a busy season for only two weeks, it cost them about $30,000 of profit and instantly they lost $100,000 off their sales price by one outage that forecasting could have prevented by knowing that they needed to order more. So I think if you needed a fourth reason out there why this is so critical I always say the most expensive way to finance your business is by running out of stock and not ordering enough not because we've all seen that yo-yo. Forecast at least allows you to see the problem so that you can address it proactively as opposed to all of a sudden boom you're out of stock and you're in a scramble and you're shipping by air which also costs you on your valuation and those things. So for those reasons that's why I think it's just so absolutely critical to running a business successfully particularly on Amazon. Mark: Yeah and I want to comment on that real quick because I was about to say obviously we're going to be Amazon-specific; that's where you really know your stuff extremely well. The forecasting is an exercise that pretty much every business should be doing. I know I had Ben Murray on the SaaS CFO and he talks about the importance of forecasting in a SaaS business. And I know at Quiet Light we just recently implemented some forecasting models as well. And it's super helpful when I can look at; our major expense is conferences, right? So when I can even look out and see what our expense profile in the forecast for that over the next six months is it really helps us understand how to spend our money and gives us a different way of looking at this. Alright; forecasting, we could talk a lot about why we should do it for just running the business. When it comes to selling a business the impact of having a reliable forecast and the impact that it has on a buyer, I'm going to just comment on this real quick because with Joseph's business I was obviously working with buyers directly on that and I can tell you that oftentimes forecast get met with some skepticism. People look at it and they don't really trust them. When people look at your forecasts partly because of the way we structured the deal and there was an earn-out that we were upfront with saying look we expect some pretty big growth in this business so we're not asking for everything upfront. We're willing to do an earn-out type of structure here but also because of the way that the forecasts really seem to have some specificity to them. That became an integral part of that sales process where people wanted to delve in and understand the forecasts. And as we were going through an update in months people were checking the forecasts as well. And when they saw that you guys were right on them or in some cases maybe a little bit wrong but here's why. It changed the discussion dynamically. This was not just kind of an amateur business of somebody who found a product that sold well on Amazon. This was a business that was being run strategically and had a real plan moving forward. And so on the sales process, I think the very simple conclusion is you added a lot of value to Joseph's business by virtue of having the strategic planning and the strategic background that you were working on and then structuring a deal around this as well. Scott: Thank you. Yeah, so I think a couple of points on that; one of them as you transition over to the sales side of things, the first thing I always want to state is that most buyers like you said will say to you we can't buy on future projections. As a general rule, there's a lot of risk in Amazon and all of these reasons for it but I want to make this statement and I state it so boldly when I talk with sellers because I think it's so critical in forecasting such an important part of it. The only multiple that a buyer cares about is not the historical multiple, the only multiple they care about is what I call the buyer's effective multiple which is what is the price I pay divided by the earnings that I get which by definition is something in the future. So while they're not sharing their forecast with you if they don't believe they are building a forecast on their side which is helping them calculate what's called the return on investment in various ways. So the notion I want sellers to understand just as how when you build a listing you need to speak in the language of your customer in order to have your product listing make sense. It's the same thing when you go through a transaction you need to be able to speak in the language of a buyer to have the most credibility for that particular buyer. So the forecast that we built with Joseph is built very very much with that purpose in mind. We think of ourselves as an outsourced CFO to a business with the responsibility of communicating in the language of a buyer. So when I think about sort of forecasting and what I'll call more advanced forecasting what we were able to do was not just to say hey if you give us a bunch of cash we think the business will double what we were able to do is to look at every product on a per unit basis of how many units it's doing right now. We would then apply seasonality to it so that we had all the historical information to apply seasonality. We did that for every current product in every market based on the margin in that market whether it was in dot.com or in Europe or in the US. And then we were able to build in each of all of the product launches of new products that didn't exist today but we're coming out to market. And we were able to be conservative on those but in essence, show that even if we hit conservative numbers of that we're gonna be in a pretty positive situation. So I think the message is when a buyer sees all of that underlying logic in the forecast it's more than just an idea. It's really a strategic communication tool between the buyer and the seller. So they were able to go okay, and you bring up another great point which is that this is absolutely a process through the life of getting the transaction done. If it takes you a few months to sell your business every month you're updating that forecast; you're having that dialogue as to where things are at. So I think what I would encourage people is that when you want to be in front of a buyer the same way that you want to be in front of a customer and think about it from their lens. You want to do the same thing for a buyer and a buyer needs to understand what the potential is of the business in order to pay the highest price for it. And if they don't know the business as well as you do I look at it as we're sort of obligated in our minds to provide them that picture. They can agree or disagree and we can structure a deal accordingly but unless we have a common view of what we think reality is in the future that's really the only effective multiple that they can use to calculate their return on their investment. Mark: Yeah. And the phrase I've always used for that is buyers buy for ROI. And you see it's got that rhyme so it's more memorable. Scott: Yeah, I love it. I love it. Exactly. Mark: No one buys a business to lose money. People buy a business because they want to make money. And speaking in the language of the buyer it really does boil down to that and the more firm that we can make that ROI pitch of here's why you're going to see a return on your investment; the more fun you can make that the more certain a buyer is going to be, the more willing they're going to be to pay a higher price for the business. I feel that we spent a lot of time speaking on why and that's my fault here. I want to get into how to do this because it's one thing to say okay here's what my historical sales were and maybe we're going to assume certain growth; I mean what sort of assumptions would you start with when you're doing some forecasting on an Amazon business? And then I'm going to wrap in multiple questions here and just kind of let you go to town on this, how would you do like a new product launch as well? I'm interested in both of those questions; like existing products in the next year and also new product launches. Scott: I got it. So here's the way I think; I'm going to refer to this as the building blocks of a forecast. So the building blocks of a forecast first is an understanding that there are two types of forecasts that you need. One of them is I'm going to refer to it as a product forecast or a product sales forecast and the second one is one I'm going to refer to as a P&L forecast or an overall profit and loss or income statement forecast and here's how they relate together. The first thing that you need to build is you need to build your product forecast which is, in essence, each one of your products. And part of what we've built over the last two or three years is toolsets to do this. But even if you weren't going to use our toolsets and just think about it conceptually every one of your products you need to know what the margin of that product is. You need to understand what the historical sales of that product have been. And then very simply you need to be able to project out; we do it on a per-day basis because that's generally how people think about it and then multiply times 30 but you need to be able to project out how many units per day or per month of each one of my current products am I believing that I'm going to sell. The second thing is most of the time when we build a per product forecast for people and they say that they want to double the size of their business or that they could, the first thing that they realize when they look at all their existing products is that that's not going to get them where they want to go. And that's where new product forecasting comes in. And the way that we do new product forecasting is exactly the same way but we build in what we call a launch budget and then a launch ramp up for each one of those new products. So we'll build in an upfront cost of let's say $5,000 to do giveaways or ads or review gathering; those types of things. And then we'll build in that if I eventually get to 30 units a day of this particular product then it's going to take me four months to get there so we'll start at 10 units then 15 then 20 and then 30 over each particular month. So visually the way it looks is in the product forecasting all of your current products we have out on the top and then down below that over time you have a bunch of zeros but then you eventually have revenue coming in down below that if you list out all of your new products. And that gives you what I refer to as your product forecast. Mark: So how do you project out with some of these products on a per-day basis? I mean obviously; let's say I'm selling 10 units a day right now and I want to get to 17 units per day, where do you look at to say I think I can get here. You have to be looking at; we have to do X, Y, and Z to get here almost working backwards to be able to say we're going to do X, Y, and Z to get here or are you looking at here's what we're doing and here is just kind of the trajectory and where do you see the limit as well? Because that's more aspect of it where if you're doing 10 years a day you might want to sell a thousand per day but that market just isn't there for that. Scott: Yeah. So the way we think about that is first of all you have to look at what the overall market potential is. So pick whatever tool that you want to use. We use Helium10 for example when we say okay if I was in first spot for this keyword, this keyword, this keyword, and this keyword what is really a realistic assessment of how much I could gain? And then let's look at the product trajectory of where this product is at and if we're rank 15 then we believe that we can get; and we usually say start conservative. Start your product forecast on if I could eventually get to the top half of Page 1 but don't necessarily build a forecast based on I'm going to outtake the competitor. A more advanced forecast what we want people to do is literally situate themselves compared to the competition. So it's pretty obvious sometimes when you go into a market and one of the clients I was speaking with yesterday while we're doing our forecasting work he said yeah for me to get to spot one or two is I'm going to have to have literally 4,000 reviews, I'm gonna have to do massive giveaways, so we said really for this product and this keyword and this niche we're going to keep the forecast is based on being in positions 3 to 6. And then let's look at where you're at now and if you're in position 22 but you're working your way out then you can build your forecast up to that particular level. But you really have to do it that way. And then the other key that we really really focused on a lot is every month has a seasonality factor to it. So you have to understand what is your seasonality factors when you're building your forecast. So in our tools for example we have the ability to set up to 12 different seasonalities because we want to basically allow you to understand when it gets to August how much should I order for the holidays or for a lot of people they have summer seasonality when should I place my orders. So you really have to assess not only the units per day but assess the seasonality side of things. And then the only other thing that we look at in terms of building that sort of bottoms-up forecast is don't always plan that a product is always going to stay level. You have to plan sometimes over a two or three year period based on the product life cycle to start to even put in a slight decline. There might be competition there might be price wars and those types of things and I think that's absolutely critical to forecasting because it encourages you to always innovate. Where sometimes people get a few; and I'm sure you've seen this a ton of times, you get a few hero SKUs that are doing great but then they don't invest in new product and we've talked about this before, you have to keep doing that even if you're thinking about selling your business because you can't count on those products always being the big winners that they might be today. Mark: How many influencing variables do you typically look at in a mature forecasting model and are they working together in a formulaic way or are you really just taking more subjective assessments of these things? And what I mean is let's say that you're looking at I know this is what my keyword volume is for particular products, I know what my [inaudible 00:36:08.1] says so I can kind of back into some projected numbers here from just the paid model and here's the organic models so you can almost approach this formulaically or you could sit back and again have more of this the subjective look at all the different factors. Are you taking more of this variable approach? Scott: Yes. So here's what I would say. I look at formulaic as tools that provide insight but do not provide wisdom. You as the owner of your business need to become what I'd refer to as wise. And my way of thinking about it is you have a bunch of data that eventually leads to information that then information leads to decisions and then decisions over time leads to wisdom. And so the way that I think about that is sort of like a pyramid building up. The tools provide you the data and the information but it's your insight and your time and experience that provides the wisdom. So the way that we think about it is every one of your products with our best clients that we force them through the discipline of looking at all of the data out there but committing to units per day in the future going forward on this particular product and think of it as sort of a manual override. All of the forecasting tools out there are great but every one of them every time; and we built all these tools because I built that originally for my Amazon business and eventually what ended up happening in every conversation we have with owners of businesses they say oh yeah I know that I used to do this the last three months but I've really taken a hit. My review rating went down to 4.2 and I lost 20% of my sales. Oh good, then we better put this one down at 20 units a day down from 30 until we feel more comfortable with it. So once you get the process down, that's what I want to encourage people, as you get the process down to where it's a half-hour a week the one that we do that takes an hour a week they have 75 parent SKUs out there and we can go through that in an hour and just yup, yup, yup, yup, and just continually refining what that particular process is. So I always think of it as tools versus wisdom and you need to apply the owner's wisdom to it. That's the only way we've found; same thing with launches you have to build into a launch what do you realistically think that it's going to take. And then oftentimes that's why this cashflow thing is so important is that we have multiple clients that will list out 15 different products that fit the brand. Then we'll look at the cash flow and we'll say here's the first five, the second five, and the third five, and we're going to roll them out over the next year so that you can then implement them in a way that is cash flow acceptable to the business. Mark: How do you recommend people get started? I know we're getting up against the clock here but starting something like this can be terribly daunting because there are just so many factors to be able to consider. Any recommendations on how somebody can start out maybe with some simple forecasting? Scott: Yeah. So here's what I would say there's four levels to forecasting and if you take nothing else from today implement Level 1 which is look at every one of your products, what it's done historically, and implement what you believe that it can do over the next 12 months. And if you want to do it by using the historical sales via ASIN report or the business report that comes out of Amazon for the last month and then just project what that is in terms of units and then in terms of sales build yourself a very simple spreadsheet in order to do that. That will at least start to give you an idea. And if you commit 30 minutes every week to looking at that sheet that you've built and you build that and just continue to update that I guarantee you you'll learn more about your business. So step one is just do that every week. Pick a time that you're not frustrated and you want to just kind of look down and see what the potential of the business is because frankly, that's a pretty exciting goal for you to then say hey if I want to get here; that's what we always…another action we say is you can't manage what you can't measure. So you have to build it to that. Level 2 then is to apply seasonality and new products. So layer on new products you're thinking about and if you don't know what they are right now still layer in I want to release 4 new products in the next year, I'd like to think that they could be as good as my current one's etcetera, etcetera, and then look at your seasonality trends. The next level beyond that and I want to describe this because you do have a lot of advanced sellers that are thinking about selling on this podcast is transition from a product forecast to then look at the rest of your income statement on what I call a percentage of revenue basis and project out that if the revenue doubles or grows up by 20% does my cost of goods sold go up by what percent. And so each one of your line items I always look at it as product costs are 19% of revenue, Amazon selling fee is 15%, FBA is 21% and get to where you can easily know every one of your; overhead and tools is 4%, paid media is 12%, know every one of your numbers on a percentage basis and you'll now have the product forecast and then the budget forecast and you'll be at what I'll call it an advanced level. And then the expert level what we build for people when we want to take them to market is we apply what we call a scenario analysis which is where we're looking at worst case, middle case, best case so that we can show it to a buyer that hey even if this thing doesn't do everything it's still going to have a positive ROI for you. But if it hits either the middle or the advanced case or the more aggressive cases your ROI is going to go up to 70 or 80% IRR. So the most advanced one then is to take a base forecast and then create scenarios and that probably building a toolset to do that all by yourself unless you really like doing that might not make the most sense. There's folks like ourselves or your accountants or other people out there that you probably want to work with but that is sort of the ultimate level because now and my closing comment of this will be relating it all back to the topic of selling your business. For most people, more than 50% of the money ever put in your own pocket will come when you sell your company not when you run it because you're always having to finance your inventory. And forecasting is the simple thing that tells you when is the right time to sell because it answers the question when does my value reach a level at which I go oh wow if I could get that much for my business now is the right time to sell. So we haven't talked about that at all but the number one question you get is the number one question I get; what is my business worth and when should I sell, and is now the right time to sell? Forecasting is the answer to that particular question and not some answer that Scott gives you or Mark gives you. But my goal for everybody on this podcast would be implement forecasting and give yourself some time to get good at it and you'll be able to answer that question for yourself which is a very powerful enabler for your business. So that's why I'm so passionate about the topic because it ultimately answers the question what should I do with this business and when; should I keep it or should I sell it and if so for how much. Mark: And even on top of that I mean Joe says all the time he says don't decide to sell your business plan to sell your business, right? Don't just wake up one day and be like I'm done because you're leaving money on the table; guaranteed you're leaving money on the table if that's the way that you go about it. If you say my goal is to get here to this number then like you're saying you can work towards that goal, you know how to get there, you have a roadmap to get there as well and you know that you're going to maximize the value of your business at the time of the exit which is frankly what most of us want to do. That's usually the goal. Scott, we could talk a lot on this and really get more in-depth. Thank you so much for coming on. I hopefully can have you on in the future we can spend less time on why and more on the how because it seems like we just started to scratch the surface on this but I really appreciate it. Where can people find out more if they want to ask you questions about forecasting or frankly anything else that Northbound does and I'll just make this quick plug; you guys do great work. I love working with you guys. Where can they find out more about you and your group? Scott: Yeah so I'm always happy to answer questions so people that want to get a hold of me individually ScottDeetz@NorthboundGroup.com or if you want to get in contact with us just in general do Info@NorthboundGroup.com and I'm happy to answer any questions. You're right there's just so much to this but it's to me the most powerful thing that can put you in control of your business. So if there are people that are out there that feel like they're kind of bouncing along and they don't really know where their business is going or what its true potential is, forecasting is the thing that gets you back on the horse where you've got the reins firmly in control and you can see your business as opposed to just feeling like you're reacting to what's in the rearview mirror. So thanks for having me on. I look forward to obviously working with you on [inaudible 00:45:28.5]. Mark: Thanks, Scott. Links and Resources: Northbound Group Email Scott Email Northbound Group
Sometimes a business can go through the acquisition cycle once, twice, or even more. A deal that was pivotal to our development back 2011 came back through Quiet Light this year and our very own Brad Wayland is here talking to the buyer, Richard Bell, about his recent purchase of a business we originally sold 8 years ago. Throughout his career, Richard Bell has mostly been in the high tech world. He's worked in sales, product development, marketing, business development, and mergers and acquisitions. He stayed mainly on the strategic side of running a business before deciding to make a purchase of his own last year. He started off small, looking to take his breadth of behind-the-scenes knowledge to bat with YUGSTER, the e-commerce business he bought. While Richard's thorough due diligence process may have initially overwhelmed the seller, the two worked well together in the end. Richard did a lot of the work up front, showed the seller he was serious, and greatly reduced the risk for problems once the deal was done. Episode Highlights: How Richard went about the search process and decided to buy this business. Factors that made the purchase good a fit. Who YUGSTER sells to. How the office and staff structure has changed since Richard took over. Richard's SBA purchase choice and how he navigated the process. Advice for anyone considering an SBA purchase. The rebrand and other changes that Richard made with Yugster, now called Until Gone. Successes and growth he's seen since the changes to the site. The software and the technology he's using and how he's are taking advantage of modern applications and platforms. Ways shopify has become the go to e-commerce cart choice for vendors. The biggest challenge Richard has encountered since the acquisition. Words of advice for others looking to delve into the purchase process. Transcription: Mark: One of the darkest periods in the history of Quiet Light Brokerage happened around 2011. I wasn't sure what I was going to do with Quiet Light at that time. And due to some personal situations going on with health issues with a family member of mine I took my eye off the ball of Quiet Light for a little bit of time and found ourselves in a position where frankly we didn't have a lot of money coming in. We had a lot more money going out and not a lot of deal flow at the same time. It was at that point in time when a great listing, a great business literally just fell on my lap and I was able to get that listing on the market, get it sold within a few days or at least found a buyer within a few days and it really represented kind of a life vest for me which really helped in bringing Quiet Light Brokerage profits back off the brink of extinction. One of the great things about this business that I love is seeing some of the companies that we touch early on grow and sometimes come back to us. When I originally started Quiet Light Brokerage my previous company that I'd sold came back through Quiet Light. I sold it again. I actually ended up selling that company a total of three times which was pretty fascinating to do. Today we don't have Joe on the introduction. We have Brad because Brad talked to one of his previous clients; a buyer that just closed an acquisition and they bought the business that served as a life vest for me back in 2011. Brad, how was the conversation with Richard? Brad: You know it's really great. I didn't actually know that background. I think he sent me an email and said hey I've got a lot on my plate. This is a good listing. Do you want to take a peek at it and see if you can put a value on it and help them get it sold? So I didn't know that backstory I just knew that you had sold it once previously. So it's one of those situations where we had a guy that was in Richard the buyer; we had a guy that was looking for an investment. He had inquired on a little tiny listing that I had out at the time it's like a hundred thousand dollars and came to the conclusion that it wasn't a good fit. But I had picked up on that this guy was like a serious M&A guy. I could already tell from the get-go like why is this guy looking at a hundred thousand dollar listing? This guy supposed must be looking at much larger listings than this. So I was a little surprised and ended up floating in the details of this listing that we had for a daily deal site that kind of needed someone with the ability to kind of handle a lot of moving parts. I felt like he seemed like the perfect personality for it. And so I floated it his way and the next day he sent me an LOI and it was just really smooth sailing from there on out from his side of things. He just was a really great buyer to work with and so I wanted to bring him on the podcast. I think he's done several things that have been really interesting with that company. Mark: How is this due diligence process different than say your average buyer out there? Brad: Yes. So when we do these deals they always look a little bit different. After we get an LOI why we are involved sometimes a lot in the due diligence process. Sometimes we're not involved very much at all. We have kind of standard folders and things that people want to look at; bank statements or proofs out of PayPal or your credit card provider. Things like that where people can kind of verify the numbers. In the case with Richard I found out after he got under LOI he had done like 200 million dollars in acquisitions in the corporate world. He was a very seasoned and experienced M&A guy. I can't remember how many transactions he had done but he had been responsible for some very large deals for I think a publicly-traded company. And so he put his diligence request together and he said hey I'm working on my diligence request and I sent them over to the seller. I think the seller about passed out. It was just; there was nothing wrong with it. It was very thorough but when you get these really experienced guys sometimes you think that means it's going to be a piece of cake for the seller but it doesn't always mean that. Sometimes if you've got a seller that's really done it's kind of like hey I'm just ready to move on and I don't want to look at it anymore. It can be a little bit of a challenge. And so we definitely dealt with that a little bit on this one where we've got a really seasoned buyer who had a very nice thorough package of diligence information that he wanted gathered. And then we had a seller that was really ready to be finished. And when he got the packet I think he felt like oh my goodness I just put all this work into getting the listing ready now we're going to go through this diligence process that is way more exhausting than what I did whenever I bought it on the front end. But honestly it was two great guys; the seller was a great seller, the buyer was a great buyer and they worked very well together and I think they've continued to be friends post-transaction. Mark: That the seller that you worked with was the buyer when I sold this business, and he still remains one of my favorite people that I've worked with out at Quiet Light. He is a fantastic guy. I think people sometimes get intimidated especially in the sell-side when they see these really long due diligence lists. But I've learned over the years, and I don't know how you feel about this Brad, but I've learned over the years that a thorough due diligence list is a good sign. It's usually a sign that the buyer is extraordinarily serious because look you have to generate all the information the buyer has to digest that information and that's really tough. And it also reduces the risk after the sale. Because if they're doing a thorough due diligence the chances of something coming back on you after are pretty small because they've done their homework. Brad: Yeah I totally agree with that. I actually tell my sellers all the time if they are complaining about the due diligence process I always tell them the work you're putting in now is saving you headache later. If you're going to go ahead and give them all the things that they need today they're not going to be the type of buyer that's coming back to you and saying hey man I really need you to help me with this or that I need to take advantage of these hours that we carved into the APA and train me on these different things. And I definitely have seen the transactions where they don't ask for much and then I find out later that the buyers had to come back to the seller several times asking for things and it seems like it is a better situation to just kind of lay all the cards on the table and do the work upfront and kind of have the ability to be done with the business and kind of transition to your next thing. Mark: That's a lot of chitchat on our part let's go ahead and listen to the interview. Brad: Welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. I'm your host today Brad Wayland and we are joined today by Richard Bell. Hey Richard how are you today? Richard: I'm doing great, thanks. Nice to see you. Brad: Good. Yeah. So we've been doing this series of podcasts on folks that have bought something from Quiet Light and now we're kind of following up with them; seeing how things went, learning about why they bought, what they learned early on, what the challenges are and so today's kind of one of those profiles. And this one has a really unique kind of proposition that I want to kind of get into later but we usually start off by just getting some background. We don't do like these fancy intros. We let our guests kind of describe themselves. So Richard give the profile of what your career has looked like and tell me kind of where you've been. Richard: Sure, I'm happy to. I've done a variety of different roles which I think is one of the reasons that set me up well to do or set me up to do well with this job of running this business. I mostly worked in the high tech world with one particular company called Akamai Technologies. And within that company, I had spent time in sales roles, technical roles, product development, marketing, a lot of time in business development, and mergers and acquisitions with business development side and really partnership focused. And the roles I had after I left Akamai were very similar positions where I had a chance to really look at strategic issues, touch on a lot of different things across the whole breadth of running a business so it set me up well for the position I'm in now. Brad: Yeah that's great. I remember; I think you had inquired on another listing that I had. I think it was a pretty small listing and we got talking about it and you gave me some background I think in the time you told me like hey I ran M&A for a big corporation for a long time and gave me some pretty staggering numbers in terms of the dollars of deals you had helped close for your business. And when I heard it I was thinking about this potential listing it was coming up for this business called Yugster which I thought was the strangest name. I was not familiar with it even though we had sold it in the past but Yugster was Yours Until Gone and it was Yugster.com. And Mark Daoust the founder of Quiet Light called me and said hey we sold this business like years and years ago and now the guy that we sold it to is interested in selling it again and asked me if I would like to take a look at it. So when you started talking and I could hear your operational background I thought this might be a good fit for you and I think I just said hey I've got an idea I want to kind of float to you and I feel like that's kind of how we started it. Is that what you remember? Richard: Absolutely. I mean I started looking for a business probably six or nine months before you and I ever even touched base. Part of that was me doing homework on sort of what was out there and how to look at these businesses that were a lot smaller than the kinds of things that I'd looked at before where we're talking sale prices in the nine figures; so very large businesses, large multiples is in stack. And so I wasn't quite sure how to go about buying frankly a smaller business. And there's a lot of chat out there. I mean you know that and you know there's a lot of brokers out there who would just put a listing out for anything. So you end up learning quite a bit about what's really there and what's meaningful just by going through that process. And we did look at a business for another e-com site that you had posted up there and I think we had decided it was a little bit too seasonal for what we were doing. And then you threw the Yugster thing out there. I think it hadn't even gone public and I'm like Yugster? As a marketing guy that was like just you know what that is. But yeah that's exactly the story and so I think when I got my teeth around that one it actually made a lot of sense for me. I was kind of excited about it. Brad: Yeah. And correct me if I'm wrong but so the business model was it had been a drop shipping business I think since day one and it still had a very impressive; you're looking at it and I'm looking at the sign and I'm thinking this looks kind of antiquated. It looks a little bit like it's seen its better days. But when I looked at the results and we're talking about a low eight-figure business that was on some slightly declining trends and I could just tell that the light bulb kind of went off for you about like I think I might better inject some life into this and I clearly could see that you'd be able to handle the size of a business that was from what you had done before. But what specifically about Yugster was interesting to you? Like when you first looked at it what were you thinking like this is a good fit for me because of what? Richard: Like I said I went through this process where I started talking to some different brokers about a variety of different businesses to help me get educated about what's out there. There are a lot of businesses out there especially in the e-commerce space that are really it is an Amazon store. Somebody who is importing some private label from China and then they're essentially listing it on Amazon and having Amazon do fulfillment and so forth. It doesn't, and the issue I got to is that it doesn't really leverage my skills. There is not a lot of value that you can add to some of those kinds of businesses. Maybe you get a few more distribution channels or what have you. What I saw with Yugster was really interesting to me that it was a fully operating business. Yes, it was drop ship but they had relationships with a sizable number of vendors. They had a functioning platform. They were not dependent on other marketplaces like Amazon which could be all over the place or eBay or whatever. They had their own storefront. It had been established I think in 2005 or early 2006 when it went live. So it had a long life which is really important in terms of longevity and the brand and so forth. And the other thing that I; the two other things that I really looked at and I liked about it, one was it had a core staff. There were talented people that had a good resume and seem to know what they were doing. And it also had a really solid customer base. They had a loyalty program they've run for many years. These were customers that had been buying from Yugster repeatedly and they had it tiered up and they were kind of passionate about the business. And these sort of strong customer base, loyal customer base that's established, the staff is there and a technology platform that I thought I could really make a difference with because I do have a strong tech background; all of those things kind of came together for me and made me want to dive in with Yugster. Brad: Yeah that's interesting. So of course as just kind of a layperson when I go to the site I think of it as like a daily discount kind of idea. I see like maybe a generation ago iPad or MacBook or something like that. Is it retail-focused folks like me or is it more like small businesses that are like hey we need iPads for our production floor? We don't need the latest and greatest we need to get 10 of this. Is it a mix of those types of customers or who really is the customer that comes to this place? Richard: A really good question and it's changed a bit. So the business model just to kind of flesh that out a little bit more for the audience it is a daily deal site. And what that mostly involves is sort of inventory end so people might have a couple hundred or something left and they just want to get rid of it. It could be there's a lot of refurbished product out there that like you're saying is a year or two behind and for most people you need the latest and greatest Apple MacBook Pro or is one that's two or three years old is going to work just fine for you even the things like vacuums and what have you. And so there's a range of products but we get them; we typically really focus on running them for a period of a few days. We sell out the inventory and then we move on to the next product and cycle through it. Our customers have; we're historically very male. So 70, 80% male buyers; the profile would be sort of bargain hunters, people that are somewhat shopaholic shows up in the mix as well. Since we've moved the business over to; I took it over last year and we kind of modified the site and the product mix and we're actually closer to 50-50 male-female at this point because we have a lot more home goods than we used to. And one of the things so your point about selling to businesses I've actually noticed a significant increase in the number of orders from businesses. We really used to have only a small handful but now I've seen things like schools. I've seen a school order like 20 Chrome books from us. They're going to use them with smaller kids and they just don't need the latest and greatest. They just need a laptop. Ipads, as you suggested, is another great example, I've seen a bunch of those go out for businesses that are needing it but the latest and greatest current generation isn't required for what they're doing. They're doing order entry or checking people out kind of thing. Yeah but it's definitely shifted and I think some of that is the changes that we've made in the site and the business as well which I think we'll get into this. Brad: Yeah. You mentioned the staff I kind of want to jump to that. So from what I recall you're in Washington are you in the Seattle area? Richard: I am yeah. Brad: And then this business was in Salt Lake I believe and there was a physical office there. And how many employees were in that office? Richard: There was about nine. Brad: Okay, and so what have you done with that? Have you kept that office there, did you retain that staff, what have you done in terms of changing that since you bought the business? Richard: Great question; so because of my background being in tech most of my career the majority of the people that I manage were actually remote, some as far away as China or India in different roles that I have. And so I'm very personally very comfortable running a remote staff. And so one of the things that we did is actually close that office because it wasn't adding much in the way of value and home office everybody. So the whole organization now is based out of their own homes and we use a lot of EG Suite technologies or a lot of video meetings, audio calls, whatever, Slack to communicate and stay very, very highly interactive between us. But everybody just works from home in their jammies or sweats or whatever [inaudible 00:18:56.1] worked. So I think you asked about did we keep the staff and we kept 100% of the employees. We gave everybody a job offer as they came over because we wanted to really evaluate what they could do with different leadership and sort of reenergizing the business. And we made some with that some staffing turnover since people that pursued other opportunities or maybe weren't the right fit for us where we were going. But I'd say about 80% of the staff is the same as what it was when I acquired the business. Brad: Yeah that's really interesting you know at Quiet Light we run a distributed team as well and so we've got eight brokers in the States, we've got two overseas, but it is an interesting timeframe that we live in where I actually go to an office. If you see behind me my house is not behind me but I have five children at home so that can be challenging at the house. I choose to rent an office but I do think it is interesting in this day and age that remote works so well and I feel like as a general rule people are happier when they can choose where they go to work. Richard: And I will actually tell you that the last round of hiring we did was for some new buyers that we brought into the business and the ability for both of them to work from home was actually a big competitive advantage in getting them to come on board. Brad: Yeah, that's really interesting. So we don't really use this as like a sales pitch but as you're sitting there talking about what you guys do; I mean our listeners, we have a lot of listeners to this podcast and a lot of them are small entrepreneurial shops, some are like PE firms and you've got your like solo entrepreneurs so I'm just kind of curious where do our listeners kind of fit in to the kind of product mix that you guys offer at your business? Like what are the types of things that they might be most interested in that you sell on a daily basis now? Richard: Sure. I mean I would say for that kind of audience you're probably looking at mostly the technology and maybe some of the home goods for example. So on the tech side, we sell all kinds of computers; Windows and Macs, desktops, laptops, Chrome books, iPads, even phones. Obviously, that technology suite is something that just about every entrepreneur or business will need to some degree. If you're somebody who's looking for like I said the absolute latest and greatest it's not going to be on our side and I'll be upfront like we don't sell the latest Mac books at all. Almost all of our tech in that sense is refurbished and you pay for what you get. I mean if you're buying a refurbished laptop and you're buying 300 bucks for a Mac Book it's going to be older. But for an awful lot of people that are simply doing email that kind of thing that works just fine. And we also have a range where we go from let's say a Mac Book at 300 all the way up for a Mac Book at 1,200. So you get to choose sort of what level you want and what you really need. But there are generally some pretty good bargain prices in terms of the type of technology and look that people are after. On good side, I mean coffee bar if you've got a home office everybody needs coffee. You can't function without it. So one of our vendors; an awesome vendor is the exclusive factory refurbished provider for Ninja products. Ninja makes some incredible home appliances. There was this great little ninja coffee bar that's sort of a single serving fresh ground coffee maker and they sell like crazy. People love them. And so yeah I think there are some tech products and some home products that would be a good fit for any business person. Brad: Yeah that's great. I want to get into some of the changes that you've made but one thing I want to kind of back up to that kind of struck me and not something I've seen that often was your deal structure. I remember talking to you and kind of floating you the price and you said yeah I'm a cash buyer so we can leverage that; no problem. And then when we got to LOI and you called me and said hey I think I'm going to utilize some SBA on this and I'm going to put down way more than what they'll require but I've got an SBA lender that I want to tap into. I just kind of like for you to explain to our listeners kind of as much as you're willing to share about that process what you're thinking was and like basically how you kind of navigated that SBA process? Richard: Yeah actually that's a really good question because I guess it is a little bit unique. I did have the cash going in to pay 100% of it down, the issue for me really was just in one-word flexibility; being able to conserve my capital, put down enough to be meaningful so the SBA approval process was a no brainer. But not be running really tight on sort of the amount of down payment I did but keeping and a good chunk of reserve capital because there's always been sort of a possibility that I might acquire other businesses that I would add on to this as well and you want to have that flexibility in place. And I also wanted to make sure that once I had acquired the business I didn't want to have to use all the capital for the acquisition. Obviously, you need operating capital and you would build that into any plan. But I also wanted to be in a situation where I had enough investment capital inside the business that I could invest in the company and make the changes that I wanted. And so when I looked at the overall sort of combination of things it made a lot of sense to sort of mix us up a little bit and take; I would have to look at the paperwork again but I think we did something like 40% down cash and 60% finance. And what that essentially did for me is mean that within the business I had a good chunk of capital available to pay for all the technology changes and enhancements that I wanted to make to move the business forward because we knew we would need to do that going. Brad: Yeah I found it very interesting; so SBA we have just a massive number of people reaching out to us looking for SBA eligible businesses and wanting to talk to us about it. And I will say that one of the common pitfalls that I think that our buyers kind of find themselves in is trying to maximize the SBA situation for themselves. So a person thinks okay on the high-level point an SBA loan can be a 10% down kind of situation. That's in the absolute most ideal scenario would be a 10% down. So someone has $250,000 in capital that they can put down on a business and so their mind immediately goes to okay then I'll buy a 2 ½ million dollar business. And what I've kind of found over time doing these SBA deals is that those end up being a tough deal. If anything goes even remotely wrong then now all of a sudden the deal is falling apart; maybe the valuation doesn't come back high enough, maybe there's more inventory than was expected and SBA can't cover the inventory. So actually you were the first person that I've had to do that and I've had a couple of people do it since but you're the first person that came and said hey I can pay cash but I'm going to go ahead and use SBA. And honestly, I think SBA has a lot of advantages and a lot of disadvantages. The advantages are from a broker standpoint it really opens up our buying pool. We can offer something as an SBA. We really open up the number of buyers that can come in. But for the seller, SBA can be a grind to get through especially in these situations where people are putting down the minimum amount. I think with what you did was interesting because I never got a single phone call from the SBA lender in your deal. I never heard anything about it. You kept me updated on kind of where things are going and that is not typical for what we do with at Quiet Light. A lot of times we're introducing them to an SBA lender and then we're getting the play by play and we're delivering information back to the sellers about what's going on. In your case you said I'm going to use SBA. I thought you put down 50%; maybe you put down 40% I can't remember, but you put down a big chunk and just said I want the flexibility and I think that really proved to show just a really wise move on your part from a business decision and it didn't hold us up at all. We literally got that thing closed right on time where we were expecting in terms of timing at least the way that I'd kind of set the expectations for our seller. Richard: I would just add to that Brad. I think the advice I'd give anyone considering buying a business is get your house in order. One of the reasons the SBA process on our side went smoothly was because our finances and sort of our credit rating; everything was cleaned up so that there was nothing weird on our credit reports. It was all sort of looking pretty and accounts that needed to be closed or resolved were done. So when the bank looked at things; they look at your credit report, they look at your house, they look at your mortgage, your payment histories you want to be able to give them a very clean robust picture and be able to give it to them boom here it is. And then we also had a very clear picture of the financials and what we were going to do with the business. We gave them a 30-page business plan that essentially laid out here's the financials, here's what we're going to invest in, here's the changes we're going to make, here's the timeline, here's the results and they were conservative. They weren't sort of wild willy-nilly captain. And so between getting our own personal numbers kind of cleaned up; and this is everything just from credit numbers to even just having a nice clean resume. I mean you're applying to SBA and they want to see your business history and what you've done. So you can't take the resume that you use for your job five years ago and just slap it down. It's got to show the bank that you know how to run a business. And so there's a lot of little things that you can do to get ready and so we had those in place before you and I even got into this acquisition process. The other comment I would add about doing the sort of 10% down, I mean we could have gotten approved on a bigger deal at 10% down. I would never have done it in a million years. And part of this maybe comes from my M&A experience which is obviously a lot larger kind of mix. But one thing I learned is that no matter how good you are at diligence, no matter what you know about this particular industry, any business you have is going to have some surprises and it's going to have some ups and downs. And so one of the problems I see with people that would be doing sort of this 10% in sort of right on the bleeding edge you're not going to have enough capital to be really flexible. You're going to struggle with investments and here's, and this is maybe not something that people don't really think about that much but buying a business is stressful. You're running a new business. You're investing. This is potentially your whole income, your life, what you're doing, a good chunk of your personal assets are going to get tied up and it's stressful even if you have tons of money to play with. Putting yourself right on the edge where your finances are squeezed that tight where you're doing 10% down and that's everything that you've got it just adds to the stress level in a way that's not good for running the business. It's not good for you personally on a health basis. So I think if I can look back at it and say what's my advice to people to get through an acquisition process using SBA prepare; good credit cleaned up, get all your documentation in order, get your resume pretty and all that stuff but don't squeeze yourself so tight that you don't have flexibility, you don't have capital to invest, you're going to panic if you have any ups and downs. It's not worth it. That's too much stress when you really want to be thinking clearly, being able to make smart decisions with some perspective on it. You for sure know this Brad it's really hard to make perspective when you're tight on the finances and you're panicking. So all those things factored in sort of where I went to. But I would definitely encourage people to make sure they've got enough of a cushion and flexibility to run their business confidently. Brad: Now I totally share your thoughts on that. And in my operating days that is really exactly how we tried to run the business. If you don't have a good amount of cash on hand it just makes something that's already difficult to do running a business that much more difficult and puts additional strain on you whenever you get some of those unknown kinds of problems that come up. One of the things I remember about you; I actually don't refer to you by name I tell people one time I sold a business to this M&A guy that had done a lot of corporate deals and let me tell you something if you think that diligence folder that you saw today is involved I should show you his because I remember it was a thorough deck of information. You had that thing all laid out perfectly. It was like okay one of the things I think I learned there is the pros have seen everything. So when you laid out that diligence folder and I saw it I was like it was organized, it was great, there was nothing wrong with but it was lot. It was a lot of information. You're very thorough, very detailed, and it kind of makes sense to me that it's gone well for you doing this business. Okay, I want to get into; so I was thinking about doing some podcast episodes and I think I emailed you maybe a month ago and said hey I went to a Yugster and there's no more Yugster. So talk about the rebrand and then let's talk about some other changes that you made. Richard: Yugster had a cult following behind it. And cult followings are great. There's a lot of loyalty that goes into that. But it was not a brand that was going to work well to sort of reach out to a larger audience. And so we, the team; I got the leadership team that was in place one of the first things we did was restructure internally to kind of give them really clean roles and responsibilities in purchasing and marketing because it had all been sort of blurred before. And what we then took off and did is really sit down and think about the kinds of changes we wanted to make in the business. The brand was a big piece of it. And we did really dig in on the idea of keeping the extra brand but we also knew that we needed to give it a refresh, improve the look and feel of the website, and sort of get it to a healthier sort of message and make it more attractive to people. In the end, when we kind of dug through it Yugster as a brand itself wasn't going to scale for us. It wasn't going to bring in a larger audience that we were sort of now starting to pursue and chase. So we spent some time doing; figure out what brands you want to work with, see what domain names are out there. We knew we wanted a dot com. We also knew that we wanted to keep a little synergy with the Yugster. We didn't want to go too far away from it and so as you mentioned, in the beginning, Yugster had become Yours Until Gone and YUG would show up throughout the branding of the site. The loyalty program was called YUG points. There was a lot of YUG that showed up. And so we figured if we kept the Until Gone piece of it that would be a nice connection. And so it turned out that that brand or that domain was actually available for purchase. This is where we made some of our capital investment; it was actually buying that domain name. And it's worked out great. I would say that the marketing team did; it could be a case study frankly in the rebranding going from Yugster to Until Gone. I won't say everything was perfect but it was as good as I've ever seen it done. And what the team put together and it was fantastic. We had a few customers that didn't make it over but the vast majority did. And we went live with the new Until Gone site which we can talk about some of the software stuff we did here in a second on September 1st. And I can tell you, Brad, if I showed you the detailed financials you'll see them start to grow through December and then there's this inflection point September 1st where they just kicked up and you start seeing this nice steady growth curve. And I think a lot of it had to do with we made changes over the summer to the Yugster's site to clean it up, make it a little bit more polished, but there's only so much that we were able to do. Once we went to the new site which was a completely revamped look and feel and brand I think it; for all the customers that we were bringing in, it just gave them confidence. That look and feel was a lot more professional; a lot more polished than the old site had been. And while we lost some of the cult kinkiness that was tied in with Yugster I think the more professional side appealed to a much larger group who were more willing to buy and make purchases through the site. And that's why we see the growth and that's continued to accelerate as we came into 2019. Brad: Yeah when I saw it actually; so I was kind of going through my list of deals and I've closed 20 deals at Quiet Light since I've been here and so I was kind of just looking at it and trying to think about what would be good podcast episodes. So I'd gone through 14 of them or so when I hit Yugster and as soon as I hit it and I went to the site I was like I know there's a story here because I mean it looks fantastic. I remembered what the old site looked like. I see what the new one looks like. It's like I could totally get that you were very thoughtful about how you approached it and how you kind of kept that Until Gone. I think that was really smart. So I totally could see the thought process from a marketer's standpoint of what you were doing and it seems to me like it did go really well just from an optics standpoint on my part. So it doesn't surprise me that your trends are good. We're getting somewhat short on time let's get into the software a little bit. I want to know what kinds of changes you've made to the stack and just kind of go wherever you want with that but I kind of want to know what you've been doing there? Richard: You know we can make a podcast about that in and of itself. There were some really interesting lessons learned I guess but I'll try to keep it focused for the group because not everyone's a techie. But basically, we have replaced 100% of the stack at this point. The original plan had been to upgrade the existing stack and put a new front end on it the new Until Gone front end basically and then do a bunch of workarounds creating APIs. And what APIs are for anyone who's not familiar with it they are programmatic interfaces that allow third parties to engage with your site. And so, for example, we wanted our vendors, our partners who were doing shipping to be able to work with us via API rather than exchanging text file CSVs for example. And the reason for that is just sort of accuracy, the time to market, and so forth. And there were lots of opportunities to do that to help our vendor and ourselves frankly work better together. Once we got into the details and we started looking at the Until Gone site design and what we wanted to do it would have required too many changes to the existing platform that would have left behind, in all honesty, a lot of stuff that we still needed to change. And so I think we closed the deal the first week of May last year; May 7th, 2018, by the end of June we had made the decision to do a full stack replacement top to bottom. And so we sourced a company actually here in Seattle to do a new website front end design and to then actually do the implementation on Shopify. We're on Shopify plus because we're large enough that we need to be on the bigger platform with the capabilities that they give us. And then that meant that we had to build a new back end because with the number of vendors we work with, with the way we work, with the flexibility we wanted to do it would not have been possible for us to just rely on Shopify. Now that won't be the case for a lot of e-commerce vendors but we operate more like a marketplace and we need to process a lot of purchase orders out to our vendors and take products in and not every product goes on-site and so forth. So we had to have control over that back end and so essentially we built out a completely new platform stack that operates; there's an admin portal, there was a huge amount of infrastructure for integrating with Shopify and providing all the APIs that we essentially built out. And what we've done since then is build some custom APIs. We've integrated with ShipStation which is a shipping management tool that a lot of our vendors utilize. We've integrated with ChannelAdvisor. We've integrated with a great company called Quitch just similar to ChannelAdvisor but a little bit more technology-focused. We're finalizing an integration with Celera Cloud which is another one of these integrator platforms that a lot of vendors and suppliers utilize. And so that's given us just a huge amount of flexibility because it was sort of getting rid of a lot of the deadwood that had existed previously. We've been able to do things that we weren't able to do previously and really take advantage of technology to reach our customers better. And so some examples of that we actually built a little ad engine so that we could serve our own products as ads to our customers and notification emails. We've done things with targeting where we've essentially built kind of a; think of it as a mini CRM, customer relationship management platform where the marketing emails that we send to them are fully targeted to their interests, their likes, what they prefer. Each of these changes as we've gone into the stack had given us sort of an incremental growth and helped us improve that curve, show better metrics, and have better control. It's also allowed us to really tightly integrate with our vendors and we continue to invest in it. We have some new capabilities coming out this week frankly that we want to get in place before Q4 that will allow us to do some things that will really improve our shipping and our customer service related to that because that's always a big issue with customers. So I'm happy to get into more it detailed Brad but I don't want to take up the time just talking about coding and Google Cloud and what we did. That's not our focus here. Brad: No, I think you hit some great highlights there and actually it's been interesting to watch Shopify and it's kind of dominance really in the kind of hosted stores platform. I think WordPress as a CMS is now like 35% of the world's websites and I can tell you from my perspective of operating for many years and kind of coming from that custom website world where we built everything from scratch because it gave us more flexibility and then seeing the kind of out of the box solutions come on the scene and then seeing Shopify and Volusion and WiX and these other players come on the scene. But it really seems like Shopify has asserted some dominance in the space at this point or just I mean there's entire; I'll be speaking at an event in San Diego next month and at that event, it's Shopify sellers. I'm going on a podcast in two weeks. It's just Shopify folks that work with Shopify every day. And we find a lot of our sellers now when they have high margin products are really utilizing the Facebook Pixel for marketing and for some reason Shopify plus the Facebook Pixel is just the combo that everyone wants to use. It's just Shopify is just kind of become this I think of it became kind of like WordPress for the CMS. I feel like Shopify is kind of becoming the e-commerce shopping cart or store hosted platform for the e-com side. Did you have any struggle with choosing to go with Shopify? Was that a tough decision for you? Richard: No, not really I mean I think we really looked at Shopify and BigCommerce. They're really the sort of two that we were down to at that point. We did look at Magento which is both a platform that you can just open source and build your own but they also have a hosted option. That was much more complicated and had a tech stack that we weren't sure we really wanted to work with. So it really came down to Shopify versus BigCommerce. And honestly, it was a combination of the partner we ended up wanting to work with was more comfortable with Shopify. And we also looked at Shopify and felt like you were saying given their market share and their size it was a good fit and I think it made sense to do that. I will say I came from a platform world so I'm very comfortable with using these kinds of platforms and I will say there are tradeoffs. There are huge positives; as an example of a positive, when I wanted to implement Apple Pay on the site and our payment processor already supported it. So I did all the things I needed to do with Apple, I hooked it up with my payment processor, went into Shopify, one checkmark and it's live and ready to go. The Facebook Pixel is another one. You configure the Facebook stuff in Shopify, it's done like that. Google Analytics is the same thing and so there's a lot of functionality that's built into the platform that you don't have to customize; that you don't have to tweak but you can still change things like your notification emails to make them personalized for your look and feel. So I think there are some really great things there in working with a platform. The flip side there is some loss of control. You don't have necessarily quite the same flexibility. There was a feature we were talking about the other day in my management team's meeting. The reality was if it was on our platform we could do it in a minute. It's just on Shopify it's going to be difficult to get it live and implemented not because of anything I say it would be a real flaw with Shopify but just because when someone else is running a platform there's sort of some constraints that you get into it. But I'm comfortable with the Shopify decision. I think I'd make the same one again. I think given their size, given the number of big brands that are using them now it's a good solid fit. So yeah I would go there again. Brad: Okay. And one of the things I kind of wanted to at least ask was the biggest challenge; what's been the biggest unforeseen kind of thing that you have had to tackle at least that you're comfortable sharing? Richard: Sure. I mean there are always surprises in acquiring any business and challenges are going to come up. You end up having to do more of something than you expected and so forth and it kind of throws you. I would say in this case I was actually; probably the biggest challenge was the technology side. Not because it was inherently a bad decision or difficult to rebuild the platform and do what we did; it was absolutely the right decision. I guess the point I would make is we weren't expecting to make that decision for 12 months. It was kind of something we were looking at as a 2019 project and it ended up being a 2018 project. And so what I had actually hoped to do was use the existing platform and like I said give it a facelift; redo the front end, make it into Until Gone but rely on the same core operational platform and just maybe do a few extensions. And it didn't end up being possible to get where I knew that we needed to be. From a marketing; branding capability perspective we had to make the changes. And so basically from July through the end of September, it was heads down coding. I wrote more code in those two months than I think I had in the previous 10, 20 years. Brad: Wow. Richard: My career has not been as a coder I've been in sort of management but we had to build a completely new platform from scratch and so it was a lot of stuff that we were putting together to make it work. And that continued through Q4 and even into this year as we add new features. And like I said earlier now we're at a point where we're really adding some really unique distinctive capabilities. We've even thought about spinning out some businesses to take the stuff that we've built and Shopify has this huge app ecosystem; apps that you can plug into Shopify and extend its core capabilities. A lot of what we've now built are things that are unique and not available within that ecosystem and so we think there are some opportunities just to extend that and make that sort of additional part of the business. But I would say that was my number one sort of challenge or I guess surprise and sort of what we did. And at times it's taken me away from running the business in a way that I wanted to. But I think it's ended up like I said being in a good place at this point. Brad: And it's really interesting and I do think the Shopify kind of app marketplace is pretty vibrant. We had a lead come through a couple of weeks ago that we were discussing among the team, it was a collection of some apps and I think it was bringing in about $80,000 a month and recurring revenue from a group that had built several apps in the space. So I do think that there's a pretty large market there to tap into. Well, I really want to thank you for coming on the show today. It's really helpful to our audience. I hope it ends up being helpful to you. People reach out to me all the time when I'm on these podcasts so I hope that you get to make some good connections from coming on and giving us some of your time. Do you have any parting pieces of advice for those looking to buy or sell an online-based business? Richard: I guess since I haven't sold a business of this size I'll maybe not give advice on that just yet but as a buyer, I would say don't sit on the fence. It's one of the best things you can possibly do. Get out of your corporate life. Find a broker that you trust, that you like, that you can build a relationship with and tell them what you're looking for. Don't make stuff up or blow smoke or try to sound bigger than you are. Be honest with them. Tell the broker what you're looking for, what your strengths are, what kind of things would keep you engaged and challenged so that they have a good idea because their job is to connect you. So if you don't give them the honest picture they can't help you. But don't hesitate. Owning your own business, running your own destiny I think is something that's just fantastic. It's challenging. It can be scary at times but if you're thinking about it go for it. And I've definitely liked working with Brad. He was always a straight shooter and honest and I'm not saying this just because you're on. I'd say this to anybody but finding a broker that is a straight shooter that's honest and upfront that makes it easy; that's huge. And I loved working with Quiet Light and Brad and I would definitely do it again if I had another business to go after. Brad: I appreciate that and honestly, you were one of the easiest buyers that I've ever worked with. I mean you brought all this experience to the table and honestly that is what we do, we're matching people up a lot of times. That's the game that we're playing and we may or may not be helpful in the other aspects of it but really to do well as a business adviser in Quiet Light we really need to be able to listen to what people are telling us they want and then pair that up with things that we have that are for sale. And I don't know that I'd take a whole lot of credit for it but I do think that you were the perfect person to take over this business and I'm really glad to hear that it's going really well for you and I hope that you continue to have success in the future. Richard: Thank you, Brad. I think it was a good fit and I hope the improvement we're seeing continues. It's a great course we're on and I appreciate your help making this connection happen. Brad: Thanks a lot for coming on today Richard. We really appreciate it. For the listeners, we will see you the next time. Thank you. Links and Resources: Richard's Business
Selling a British company to a US entity is complicated to say the least. From this experience, we have learned that it is doable and an eye-opening experience from both the seller and the buyer side. There are opportunities out there, and with some perseverance, great returns on both ends of the deal. Today's guest, Joseph Harwood, a London based entrepreneur, was behind one of the most complex transactions we've dealt with in twelve years of brokering. Despite the challenges of selling an overseas company, we managed to help create an advantageous deal structure for both the buyer and the seller. Episode Highlights: What the tax situation looks like for a UK seller looking to sell to a buyer in another country. Types of transaction structures available to these sellers. The number one objection coming from the buyer side. How Joseph was able to see through the obstacles. What the process was like from the outset. The advantages of listing with an earnout. If and when doubt crept in for Joseph. The seller tax break on built-up cash flow on a transaction like this. Why this approach means that buyers have choices and a comfortable pace. Things that a UK based seller should consider for selling abroad. Transcription: Joe: Mark one of the great things about Quiet Light and the team that we have is we're always communicating in the background; helping each other out, asking questions, sharing information. And more recently we're seeing a lot of communication about the sale of UK based or European based Amazon seller accounts and the transfer of i. And I understand that you just took one on. I did a few years ago. Actually, there's usually a small component of most transactions that I do if it's FBA that there's a European run that 100% German seller account last year. We're always doing them and they're always different. Our buyers get a little bit concerned about buying one. And our sellers get a little bit concerned about the transferability of one. But you just took on a very complicated one. You've managed to do the transfer. It ended up being a stock sale and there was some definitive advantages to both the buyer and the seller in making this happen. Can you tell us a little bit about what this podcast is about and how you talked about the owner of the business there? Mark: Yeah. So the owner of the business is Joseph Harwood. He agreed to come on very graciously. I'm super happy he came on because in 12 years of selling online businesses this was easily the most complex transaction I've done. There was a moment where we had a sell-side conference call only; so only the advisors on the sell-side and I was the last person to join and the prompt at the beginning of the call said you are the 12th caller on this call. And I'm thinking 12 people on this call on the sell-side only to advise this transaction. Now you may be hearing the something and that's why I don't do a UK deal because it's complex. But here's the thing, throughout this process not only did we take what was a fairly complex business in terms of its operations we took a UK company which has some tax disadvantages being sold in the US and we managed to make a structure that worked out well for the buyer and worked out well for the seller. In fact, there are structures available which can be tax advantageous for both the significant degree. And our buyer in this case; God bless him, a great person, a great buyer, had the perfect mindset for this which was to not try and adjust this large transaction all at once. And everybody in the team did the same thing by the way just to address each problem step by step and the result of this is that he got a great deal and a great company that is growing like absolute bonkers that not a lot of people were looking at. And for him to look here and not rule this out based off the UK domicile only is a testament to him and I think will pay off pretty handsomely for him. On the UK side I know we talked to a lot of UK sellers that think that they can't sell a business and listen it's more difficult. We're not going to cast aspersions here and say that it's somehow easy to do. A lot of people do avoid UK based businesses but it is possible. It needs be structured right. We need to attack it correctly. And for those of you out there looking to buy if you can figure out this UK angle and it is something that can be figured out. We do have a template for it. It's a really good opportunity because there's some great businesses out there that aren't going to market right now for the very reason that those sellers don't think they can. Joe: I would say it's almost the unavoidable future, right? A long time ago we talked about can you even sell an Amazon-based business. Well, here we are millions and millions and millions of them sold. Now it's those businesses all have; a lot of them have a UK component to them and some are standalone UK businesses or really European businesses. It could be any country over there. So I think it's the future. I think it's important for both buyers and sellers to understand it. And I'm really excited to listen to this one myself and hear your most complicated transaction in 12 years come to a final close and successful transaction for both the buyer and seller. Mark: Alright Joseph thank you so much for agreeing to come on the podcast. For those of you who didn't pick us up in the intro and I'm sure Joe and I talked about this but Joseph you and I recently worked together along with Scott Dietz from Northbound to help sell your business. And I'm really happy to have you on because we love bringing on previous clients. Joseph: Yeah, glad to be here Mark and hopefully, I can still shine some light on a possible sale of UK Limited Companies to US buyers. Mark: Yeah and that's one of the things that I definitely want to talk about on this and just have a conversation with you. I know within Quiet Light Brokerage we have this conversation quite a bit and then I would imagine among UK sellers, it's probably met with some skepticism; the idea that you could even sell a UK business, e-commerce business primarily because of the tax situation. Could you just go over that for somebody who might not be familiar with what does a tax situation look like for UK seller who's considering selling their business? Joseph: Yeah so basically the big fear is doing an asset deal and then having to take your funds as income which is then transferred into a person's assets which is taxed heavily. If you get over; run about 100k threshold that's about 45% so doing an asset deal is technically really, really bad for you. So generally most sellers want to do a seller shares deal and then you get a 10% tax co entrepreneurs relief which is taxed personally up to; you have an allowance of 10 million in that and that's a 10% tax. So it's a pretty significant difference tax-wise depending on what kind of deal you can get. Mark: Yeah and I think buyers or sellers tend to be skeptical that they can do this. And this isn't just with the UK. I know Canada has something very similar. Australia has a similar structure as well where a share sale you get a pretty awesome tax rate. And then if you're doing an asset sale you're going to get absolutely killed with the tax rate. The buyers don't generally want to do a stock sale and brokers like myself I know when you and Scott first approached me I think that was one of the first things I told you. Like wow, I don't know about a stock deal. I can't offer something as a stock deal that's rule number one. And rule number two a buyer is looking at it; I don't know what would you guess would be the number one objection for buyers? I would say probably the liability carrying forward. Joseph: I think structuring wise it's complex because you're buying an entity and you're in a different country. So I think that in itself can scare a few people. It's a bit more of a learning curve. Mark: How many; let's count how many advisors we had on your team. So just on the sell-side, we had Scott Dietz, myself. Joseph: Yeah we'd retained Redpath US tax advisors who had retained a UK council. Mark: Oh so we have a UK council as well. Joseph: Well yeah they had a UK council retained within them. So that was kind of tax advice UK, US. And then we had a UK contract advisor and then our US contract advisor. So technically 4 different retentions of legal advice which ended up in quite a hefty bill I think it's a good learning process for the book. Mark: The thing is you can absorb that hefty bill. We're not going to discuss how much you sold your business for. I mean it was in the seven figures range. It was a good size. When you're talking about the difference between a 45% tax paying for advisors I mean it's worth it. But it did get complex in that there was just a lot of voices that were being heard with every single document that got shared. And I was just on the sell-side. We had Rochelle Locke who's been on our podcast advising the buy-side and they had their own people as well that were advising on the tax structure and everything else. There was a lot of advisors there so it was a bit more complex but I think part of that was because we hadn't done this before. Joseph: Yeah I mean I'm going to say it was a big learning curve for everyone involved. We were lucky to have a patient buyer who was determined to see the deal through to the end. And I think we from my experience have learned a lot about selling a UK company to a US entity. Yeah, it's a complicated process but looking back at it now the tax piece of the puzzle is; I mean okay every situation business is unique but there will be no way we would need to have as many detailed conversations because we're kind of aware of what issues can crop up tax-wise the permanent establishment thing and where the business is run from and those kind of things are more solvable. Now we're sort of prepared and then contract wise like I don't actually think we needed to retain a UK council until the buy-side presented documentation for it. And then we would have had the UK council review; the UK law side documents but I think Sean from E-commerce Small group would have been fine for just reviewing the actual SBA agreement. Yeah like it could have been simplified down but it was still in itself like a valuable process to learn. And there was so many great things about the tax side that sort of gleaned from that process. I think it was worth it. Mark: Yeah. I want to get into that in a little bit because one of the eye-opening things with your transaction was the number of tax advantages that you personally had as a seller and also the tax advantages that we were able to potentially introduce into the buy-side of the equation. And for those that are listening that are looking for acquisitions, there's actually an opportunity here which we basically uncovered to look at UK based businesses and save significant money in a number of ways. Before we get into I want to back up a little bit and just talk about what it was like when you first came on with Quiet Light Brokerage. Because I remember when Scott who you hired a while ago to help advise and again Scott's a great guy. He's super good at advising. He caught me at a conference in Austin and said hey Mark I got this great business for you. And then he went into a little bit of what it was and like I don't know Scott I don't know about the future. And then he said well we really believe this is going to be good and there's all sorts of reasons that we think; I mean not think but we know this business is going to grow by this much. And by the way, it's a UK company and I'm just thinking Scott come on. Joseph: Every step of the conversation it gets a little bit harder doesn't it? Mark: Right. And so the first time that I talked to you Scott and I were also at a conference and so I got up early; I think I was in Las Vegas, my whole mindset was okay I've got to get this guy's expectations set early on. I will take this on but this is going to be really, really difficult to do. And I'm glad though that you saw through all that because it did turn out to be a really eye-opening sort of exercise. But what was that initial upfront process like? I know you listed a business before for sale. What was it like going through that process with Quiet Light? Joseph: It was great. The first brokerage that I've worked with has gone to so much detail to answer so many potential objections from a buyer. I mean I'm surprised we got any no's after that the depth on our information pack and the seller interview. I mean the length you guys went to take to understand potential objections and understand the business as well; the risks involved and kind of highlighting it, picking up on the upsides, and really like understanding what I was doing with my company and the niche I'm in. I think that was a huge part of getting a buyer to the table who was ready to take on the risk that was over there. It's a Q4 niche. It's a very risky prospect. And I think the buyer saw the risk and the upside and was able to make an educated decision because of the information that had been put together. I'm not going to lie, it got to the point where it was slightly frustrating and we were having our firstborn son at the time. We intended to be listed and sold before that happened. We ended up a bit further behind than we actually wanted it to be. But in the end, it was right so we got a deal done. So that's all that really matters. Mark: Yeah and the good news is we beat your son crawling, right? He's not crawling yet. Joseph: Yeah exactly. Mark: Okay, so we got the business sold before he was crawling. Joseph: We got that. Mark: That upfront process was difficult but the lesson that I took away from that portion; your business was unique in a lot of ways like you said it was a fourth-quarter sort of product. And look a lot of Amazon products a lot of Amazon businesses are fourth quarter heavy but yours really relied on that fourth-quarter more so. And just to put this in context for people listening, the growth trajectory that we were seeing on your business was really, really significant. And some of the things we are anticipating we're pretty aggressive. And so that all came in this sort of short period and so there is this element of perceived risk. So the lesson I took away from this that was so good and again Scott did a great job with this was figuring out a structure that got you, Joseph, a good amount of money at close where it wasn't going to be a complete miss if things fell apart but also allowed you to ride some risk with the buyer and let them really cash in on the upside of that without risking all of the money on it. And so deal structuring to answer objections I think is really if I could summarize it. Joseph: Yeah. I really totally agree. And I think of brokerage firms just have this kind of cookie-cutter response to how they want a less to do it; it's 3x, it's 4x because of blah, blah, and blah. We listed with an earn-out and I think that one pulled a high multiple but two I think you already reassured buyer that we believed our projections and they weren't just pulled out of thin air and to kind of like; you know like we were really willing to go on that journey with you. And I think yeah that really helped. Mark: Yeah, I think so too. And a lot of people in your shoes don't want to do an earn-out because especially when it's first proposed you think I don't know who's going to buy the company. Like how can I trust them? First of all, A. complete credit to you to understanding the upside for you as well with an earn-out where you can tap into some of the future growth of the business. But then B. you're involved in this process all the way through and you saw the importance of knowing who your buyer was and being able to trust that buyer to be able to grow the business and be confident. We've got a fantastic buyer. Like you said he was great through the whole process and I think he's going to kill it with the business. Joseph: I don't think it would've been as easy to move forward if I wasn't as confident with the buyer. If it was a private equity group then I would have put the company in hands of someone who might not know how to manage an Amazon business effectively or specifically this kind of Amazon business. I think that because of this seasonality and SKU density I think it takes a kind of special approach to run a business and I think our buyer has that. So yeah I mean it's definitely important. Mark: Yeah. On the flip side and I don't want to speak for the buyer. I'm hoping to get him on the podcast. He's agreed but he's obviously busy with a new business. Joseph: He's pretty busy. Mark: So I totally get that but from his perspective where he's really, really smart is not only did he buy a business with some really strong forecasted growth, he bought a business where a lot of other buyers weren't even looking because they just discounted it saying UK, I'm not interested. And so it gave him some advantage as far as that. And look let's be honest it took a little bit more effort for us to find a buyer. We had a number of conference calls and nothing materialized. At the end of the day, we had a couple of good qualified buyers that were kind of competing but it took a bit for us to get there. Was her point; I'll answer this after you do, but was there a point along the way where you thought that this isn't happening? Joseph: You know, to be honest. I think at the start I felt like it wasn't happening the right way because a lot of the buyers that we're getting on calls were trying to keep me pretty significantly involved in the company and structuring their offer so they're otherwise around me to having salary or retained in a large amount of equity unless upfront cash. So it's a bit like maybe there's too much value in me and not what the company is actually doing and I'm so this unique entity. But eventually, with some of the other offers we received, we started to see some buyers really saying the value in the business too. Yeah I mean overall I don't know; I don't think at any point during the process I was particularly worried that it wasn't going to happen. I think there's always a buyer out there for what you're selling if you know what I mean. Like it's just what I was selling was a very specific thing that required someone who was willing to take a pretty significant amount of risk. And yeah we found that person. Mark: Yeah, and then again the offset to that risk for him is the upside on this, right? Joseph: Yeah. Mark: The upside is getting significant. And look there is value in you but I think from a buyer's standpoint when I look at how that dynamic worked out; I mean you were pretty vocal upfront saying I don't want to be working in this business moving forward long term just because you have other interests. You have a newborn son. You want to spend time with that son and that's totally reasonable. All the same, you are going to be doing some work with the business here moving forward mainly because you and this buyer get along wonderfully. And so he's accomplishing what other people we're trying to wrap up early on by really just having a good relationship with you which again is just as; we preach about this all the time, right? If you want to be a good buyer and be successful be likable. Joseph: Yeah I mean honestly I was a bit concerned because the buyer and I was sharing a lot of information about the business before close and in the end I just discounted that nagging thought in the back of my head to should I trust this person, are we actually going to close, are they just trying to gather information and then pull out or whatever and try and compete and yeah, I just put my trust in and the buyer and I think that really paid off. Mark: It's easier to trust a buyer when you see that they're spending a lot of money as well on their side with advisors, right? Joseph: Yeah exactly. Mark: That would have been an expensive fact-finding mission for him. Let's talk a little bit about some of the tax advantages. I mean we've already talked about just the advantage of the 45% to 10% on your side. But something you brought up; you came up, by the way, for people we didn't say this before but you came out and actually visited me here in the Twin Cities as well as Scott who lives in the Twin Cities. We had dinner. It was great. It was along with Eric as well from Redpath. The first time a client has come up and visited. It's fantastic; a lot of fun. But one thing you brought up in that conversation was the tax savings that you were able to generate as well on the money with; the cash within the business which is one of his kind of hidden benefits that maybe we weren't anticipating early on. Joseph: Yeah. I mean I kind of knew it existed as an option but because moving into the process I wasn't 100% sure if we would actually get a seller's stocks deal; I knew that was a big driver so something we were pushing forward but I'm… yeah, so basically to summarize the working capital and inventory within the company can also be released tax efficient during the earn-out because it's counted as working capital. So basically you sell the cash of the company and the inventory to the buyer and they then cycle that back to you. I mean you can do it as quickly as 10 days. We're allowed longer so we've got time to kind of work out the accounting side but they effectively buy the cash and you're giving it back at the entrepreneur's rate so the 10%. So instead of having to [inaudible 00:21:53.3] to take that money as salary or income and dividend, you can pull out the business into a personal through entrepreneur's relief at 10% which is a nice benefit and something that for anyone at sell-side you should really be considering the year before you sell your business you want to be building your cash reserves because you can pull that money out extremely tax-efficient right. Mark: In your case, it was; I won't put a number to it but there was a significant savings probably taking a large chunk if not the entire chunk of some of your advisors that you were paying to help us. Joseph: Yeah Mark, for sure [inaudible 00:22:30.6]. Mark: And so yeah we take a look at that; again the path that you sort of blazed here for a lot of other UK sellers with all these advisors, we have a pretty nice path down. I want to just touch briefly on some of the tax savings that we saw on the buy-side. Are you familiar with much of that or shall we pass over that? Joseph: I mean I think it's important. I don't totally understand the details; very, very top-level view. I know there's structuring that you can do with different entities in a holding company that achieves an effective tax rate of 21% then they sort of; a tweak of that is if you then pull all the company activities into the USA you don't have a person in the UK, the UK office, or whatever country you end up running the business in you don't have what's called permanent establishment in that country. So then the effective tax rate ends up being at 26%. So again it's still not bad like the flow-through tax rate of an LLC is 37, right? So, whatever happens, it's an effective way to use the dual tax treaty between the UK and the US and same with some other countries like Canada and Australia like some that you said before but yeah when it comes to the actual structuring that's more for a tax advisor to kind of discuss but yeah like it's one of these things. So once you get past the liability which can be solved contractually it presents a huge opportunity for both buyer and seller which is I think an important thing to have those conversations about because it's not just the seller that benefits from effective tax rates. Mark: That's right. So just to kind of recap here what we're talking about here is going from an effect of 37% here in the US. When we think about buying an Amazon business we typically look at just straight-up asset sale, you set up a new LLC and then you're going to have your earnings on that business tax at that 37%. Under this structure, it would require a different sort of setup with these companies and one could do with the details in that meeting because I don't want to get something wrong here on this episode. I hope to have Eric from Redpath on who can discuss this in more detail. But effectively going from that 37% like you said down to an effective rate of what was it 25%? Joseph: 21 or 26 depending on which country the operations are run out of. Mark: Right. And so that can be significant savings if you are seeing earnings well into the six figures. And in addition to that having that structure set up so if you were to say as a buying group I want to buy in the UK because let's face it there's a lot of U.K. companies that are really, really powerful and doing some amazing things. You now have a vehicle within UK to be able to acquire some of these properties and save on the tax rate as well. It's a double bonus there. My opinion from the buy-side it requires a little bit of setup but the benefits are definitely there long term. Joseph: I think it's one of the cool things that we sourced towards the dinner we had was not many other buyers are looking at these companies. And I think that gives the buy-side another competitive advantage. It's like some of the other larger brokerage firms they're not looking at UK companies. I remember having some initial contact conversations with my broker and the second we mentioned it was a UK company they basically took a 0.5 multiple off the company because they were like yeah we don't do that, we don't do stock, we don't do you know. And I think that approach to UK companies means that there's more of them available. Mark: Yeah. With a US-based company, we have this tendency where if you don't move quickly as a buyer and by quickly I mean days you're going to lose it and with a UK company often. And it didn't happen in your case actually when we actually got down to that LOI stage things did move rather rapidly. But there was luxury for some of the earlier buyers to basically take their time because they didn't have; normally we have a dozen or more people looking to have the property. In this case, we had less than that looking at this closely enough or for some competitive pressure. But I think that was crazy. And I think the pace was a bit more comfortable. What do you say; let's flip around a little bit here and kind of round out with this, there's a lot of UK sellers out there that may be looking at this and saying I've never really considered selling my company. Some of the things that you would recommend you've already mentioned building up some savings in your account before going to market. So that you can pull that out as a favorable tax rate but what else would you mention to UK based sellers that maybe haven't considered this before. Joseph: Yeah, sure. I mean I'm not sure what advice I have specifically for UK sellers. I have some good general seller advice like have your numbers in order, know your inventory values, have inventory management software if possible so you can pull inventory numbers at any given time, know your way around your balance sheets like having numbers over to a buyer as quickly as possible helps them be informed and helps you get the deal closed. I think that's fundamental you don't want to be waiting for your accountant to get this information. I mean for UK buyers I don't think I have any really specific advice or any more detail but like the buyers are out there. There are interested parties willing to look at structuring options and get deals done. I think it's an exciting time for UK companies which is not; there are options out there to get closes that are tax favorable for a UK company. Mark: Yeah, I would agree 100%. Again it's a bit of an eye-opening experience for me as far as just what we can do and where we take a look at the deal, structure it smartly from the beginning. I think the other lesson that I did pull away from this was just the benefit in bringing on good advisors. I know both on the buy-side and sell-side I see people hesitate sometimes. Maybe their books are a mess and so we recommend that they hire a bookkeeper. We have a number that we recommend that just do good work and sometimes people they balk at that. I don't want to spend 3 or $4,000 but the benefit you get out of hiring a good adviser I mean it pays for; it should pay for itself. It should pay for itself. Well, this is great Joseph. I know that there are going to be people out there who have questions about this. Are you open to having some of them contact you by email? Joseph: Yes for sure I'm happy. Anyone who wants to talk to me either buy or sell-side I'm probably not going to give you any detailed information in structures that I don't truly understand but yeah happy to sort of field any questions that this might bring up. Mark: Okay well, we will place some contact information for you in the show notes to this episode so I'll get that from you. I really appreciate you coming on here and taking the time to talk about the deal. I know it's not always comfortable talking about the deal that you've just closed because most of us let's face it we're introverts. Joseph: Yeah. I should be on holiday now really anyway. Mark: You should be instead you're still doing all this stuff. Hey, thank you for coming on. I appreciate you sharing your story with us. Thanks for trusting us to do the deal and most importantly as much stress as it was also just a ton of fun. Joseph: Yeah I mean I was generally enthused by the process. I really enjoyed the negotiating and closing and selling a company. It's the first time I've ever done so yeah pretty exciting. Mark: I can't wait for the next one. Joseph: Yeah me too. Mark: Sounds good. Thanks, Joseph. Joseph: Alright, thanks, Mark. Links and Resources:
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