The Unexamined Education

Well, the audio is bad on this one; plus, you have to listen to these two jokers. If you don't make it to the end, Shaun basically gives up on the idea of control as a concept, and Jon labels plagiarism as "curation" and claims that his excellent writing skills stem directly from his academic dishonesty.Sorry about the audio ;(

Amplify SHAUN!Jon and Shaun jump on the crypto train to try to promote their podcast…not even sure what this episode is about…something like a central authority in education could be problematic. Jon basically defends teachers helping their students cheat on standardized tests in order to protect the kids from the all-knowing central authority. And Shaun just says, “right,” “right,” and “yes!” So educational fraud is okay now? “Right!”Dead silence.

Okay, so not much to say here. Surely, these guys are wrong.

Well, this starts with a strange pseudo-apology that was amusing for any who oppose this podcast. Then Jon proposes an allegory (actually Shaun does all the heavy lifting, but he credits Jon), and the two talk about the allegory as though talking through this imaginative comparison will solve all problems in education. One of them, probably Shaun, cannot stop bumping his microphone table, which is a tad distracting, but at least it gives us something else to listen for because insights ain't coming, my friends. 

This guy is way too friendly with Jon and Shaun. He could clearly outpace him, but he's holding back. Enjoy moments of the two getting their just deserts, and imagine what Matt could have done to them had he not shown them so much respect.

Well, what did you expect on a Christmas episode? Of course, Jon and Shaun go after one of the more trusted critiques of our modern age - screen time and whether or not we should limit screen time for young people. These contrarians do their typical back and forth where they suppose in-depth discussion can undermine the assumptions upon which all of our educational values have been created. Merry Christmas! I imagine Jon and Shaun got their kids some new screens. Maybe 2022 will be better.

Jon and Shaun ponder the phenomenon of devious licks. One cannot really say that they got anywhere with it, but they thought hard about it.

Shaun recounts a school discipline situation through hearsay, and the two analyze the validity of the school's response even though they have no real connection to the incident. 

Well it's confession time for Jon. This damned podcast contains a couple of damning confessions by who I thought was the more sensible and erudite of the two personalities. Shaun, as is his wont, praises himself with a couple of elementary school anecdotes which serve as shameless self-promotion of what a sweet, kind, and creative child he was. Jon apparently took those stories as confession time for his malfeasances  of yesteryear, which are abundant. Not only did these stories serve as condemning evidence of Jon, they revealed the sadistic nature of Shaun, who couldn't stop laughing about Jon's actions. Shaun even calls himself out on his sadism as though that's some sort of exculpatory act, which it's not. If you point out and laugh at your own sadism, Shaun, that doesn't make you less sadistic! And I know you're using a shock collar too, and you probably like it. 

Today we have the rare case of Shaun making the more sensible point, which is to preserve the tradition of summer break. Of course, his reasons are weak as he apparently just wants to selfishly relive the glory of his summer camp days. But at least Shaun had a summer life. Jon apparently did nothing but watch television in his summer youth. Now, I suppose he wants to retroactively punish himself for his sedentary wastefulness and rid us of summer. Jon, we are not proxies for you in your war against yourself, sir. As often it goes with this podcast, Jon convinces Shaun of things and Shaun spirals out of control in his imagined world of summer camp/school. Guys, there's only one reason to do academics in the summer, and that is to make up for missed academics in the school year. It's obvious. Why do you make it so complicated?

Shaun discovers a new philosophy, one that surely millions before him have posited, but now Shaun has discovered it, so it I guess it matters. Jon certainly thinks it matters. What is the "philosophy?" you ask. Well, see the title? That's it. Shaun goes down the path of exploring what the situation of the world is, and posits that the reality of the world is that young people owe nothing to older people. Empirically, this is dubious as the actual existence of the young generation depends upon an older generation generating them. However, Shaun seems to be exploring this from the standpoint of expecting the youth to learn certain things.In short, Shaun essentially argues that there is no such thing as wisdom, but by the end of the episode, he's on his soapbox dispensing wisdom in a most cavalier fashion! 

Jon preaches about the problems that arise from teachers not explaining what they're doing to the students. Shaun agrees, straining his mind to understand Jon's mysterious concept: mystification. This episode didn't offend so much as it bored. It is Jon, Shaun, and yawn. 

"There's nothing wrong with experimenting on children."What else needs to be said? This is an actual quote from the episode. The best part of the episode is at the end when we get a glimpse of how these two have failed as teachers in the past. Please, bring on more episodes like that!

So apparently these guys have just given up on post production. The Mozart that once elevated this discourse just a tad, is gone and the whole program suffers for that omission. Moreover, it seems they have gotten too lazy to edit out fillers and stutters. They must have spent hours previously trying to trick all of us into thinking they were well spoken...and I guess it kind of worked, but the jig is up now. The true quality of these two comes through in episode 15.Jon and Shaun believe that schools should be designed around the specific qualities of the teachers. This is a massive headache for any administrator and obviously should be avoided at all costs. Shaun actually forces himself to take the reasonable and right stance for a while, and he makes excellent points along the way, yet he cannot resist but to capitulate to his friend who would cater to the strengths of teachers rather than to the strength of immortal policy. They would risk the future of a school on the loss of one person. Do I even need to point out how ridiculous this is? The answer is "no," so goodbye.

This episode may have the listener thinking, "these guys are just contrarians." After all, who in his right mind, would question the value of catching a young person in the act of cheating. Is that not the supreme moment of authority? Well, Jon and Shaun will question that. Specifically, they even call out a much relied upon program used for catching students who plagiarize, but let's be sympathetic here for they are not simple contrarians and in regards to Turnitin.com, they know not what they do.First, let's just get something out of the way here. Shaun is clearly unwell in this recording, but he powers through. It's painful to hear, but hear him out. If nothing else, such rhetoric is amusing.What seems to have happened to these idealistic teachers is that they decided to believe in students somewhere along the way. Having spoken with some of their former colleagues, it seems that they were always a bit soft on students. Probably, they should have exited the educational system in those early years. Unfortunately, they persisted and those seeds of softness grew into trees of tolerance, and now these two cannot see the students as doing anything wrong. Shaun is more afflicted by this affliction than Jon, and it took Jon nigh on half the episode to realize how radical of a position Shaun was espousing.In the midst of the kindness confusion, Jon outright confesses to dishonestly proceeding through his secondary education and challenges erstwhile administrators of Grapevine Colleyville Independent School District to strip him of his high school diploma for a specific incident from junior high. Shaun suggests that he could be stripped of his diploma as well for academic malfeasances in the North East Independent School District of San Antonio, but he does not specify an instance so that may be tricky for NEISD. But Shaun will have his own issues when Turnitin.com comes after him for defamation.So take it easy on these guys: one is about to be a 40-something stripped of his high school diploma while the other will be contending with the perfectly legitimate and morally upright company, Turnitin.com.

"After a long hiatus, Jon and Shaun finally return. Why were they gone so long? I assume it's because they burned out. Apparently not...maybe they were working on great improvements in the production. Well, let's give it a listen:"Okay, so quality has not improved. Jon and Shaun do not even give us that little bit of Mozart at the start and finish to make us feel a little classy for listening to their production. Of course, I always saw right through that ridiculous juxtaposition of Mozart with Jon and Shaun, but now that I don't have even that moment of enrichment, I am not sure I can keep reviewing these guys. I mean, "Good morning Shaun...good morning Jon." That's harsh. That's harsh...""Ahoy! Ahoy! I'll take the burden Dear Sir. I have listened to these podcasts up till now. Unburden your offended psyche and let me carry the load a while.""Ahh! Thank you Young Master. I reluctantly but appreciatively give over this bane. Please do us all justice by destroying these mountebanks.""You have my assurances Dear Sir. I will now proceed without further quotation marks:"Shaun takes center stage first in this discussion of education. He does not discuss education though. Rather, he discusses a "harrowing" experience of seeing a house toilet papered. Jon then tells his tale of distress where he felt compelled to talk to some students outside of the school.The recounting of these tales reveals impressive imaginative abilities that sheds light on the two "teachers'" general discontent with our educational system and society at large. By examining how both Jon and Shaun imagine situations as more harrowing or more dire than they actually are, they are, of course, going to have great difficulty in teaching at a large school where numerous encounters can be imagined together into the apocalyptic state that they imagine the state of education is in. Are things so bad gentlemen? Really?

Jon and Shaun take pot shots at the great tradition of pep rallies in schools. These fun-hating teachers go on and on about how difficult it is to stand amongst other people standing. Their complete lack of confidence in managing excited teenagers is amusing, and what's more amusing is that they seem to suggest that we reconsider the entirety of the educational system because they don't fit in.Same old Jon and Shaun!

Jon starts the episode by pointing out that Shaun keeps in touch with his former students but that he does not keep in touch with any. Shaun explains how social media works. Thanks Shaun. Jon confesses that he does not keep up with anybody really at all, and never has. Now, Jon has some regret because of this, so Shaun and Jon start a campaign to get Jon to gather up some friends from yesteryear. Okay, so five minutes in, and I'm wondering why or why am I listening to these guys?The topic of the episode, which we finally get to after the social media plea, is the worst students ever. Jon starts, and once again, he bemoans the first year of teaching where, surprise...surprise, Jon had a difficult time. He didn't just have a difficult time with students, he had a difficult time understanding the difference between semesters and trimesters - semester=six months; trimester=three months. Anyway, back to the discussion, Jon found out pretty early on that he was rather adept at creating a bad reputation for himself, and that a reputation can affect how others see you. Profound insight number one from these guys.Shaun then recalls "the musician," a student who apparently was a better teacher than Shaun. Shaun is disturbed by this, probably because it points to his incompetencies that he's been hiding now for decades., but he blamed the student for his shortcomings. Of course, Shaun then defends his precious gifted and talented students, and even though they apparently did the same thing as the musician.Jon discusses "Melody" at length, pointing to her ability to turn the class against Jon with her charisma and reputation. Jon reflects on his inadequate abilities to respond to Melody's influence, who it sounds like was also more able to teach than Jon. Really, these two guys are tied together by identifying natural-born teachers as their worst students ever. 

Once again, our crew of two try their hands at a movie review. Sticking with the 80s, they watched Dead Poets Society. There's not much to say here except that Jon and Shaun miss the entire point of the movie! Clearly, the Dionysian influence brought into Welton disrupted the established and successful Apollonian regime. This is an ancient struggle - the Apollonian brings upon its own disruption by attempting to harness the energies of Dionysian. Of course, in this movie Keating is Dionysus and Nolan represents Apollo.The film establishes the reputation and the success of the school early on, and the students and parents who attend the school have chosen to go there for the reputation and success the school can pass along to the children. Keating puts this effort at severe risk. Teenagers need boundaries even if they do not know it oftentimes, but Jon and Shaun act as though Keating has attempted to do something moral even though they recognize that Keating does not really succeed with any student, except maybe Todd Anderson...maybe. What possibly could be the point, gentlemen, of teaching free thinking if one cannot even be certain that free thinking was accomplished? These guys are so disillusioned by their time trying to enforce a sensible systematic curriculum in schools, that they chase after any opportunity to undermine the established belief. In the spirt of Dr. Pritchard Ph.D. from Dead Poets Society, let's create a chart to determine the value of any given episode. First, along the x-axis, we will chart the perfection of the podcast, measured by Jon and Shaun's ability to complete each thought, to speak clearly without fillers, and to dialogue in a register that matches the importance of the topic at hand (no excessive laughter please gentlemen). Then, along the y-axis, we will chart the importance of the topic at hand, measured by the timely necessity of the discussion. If we do so, we will get a chart that shades a box of infinitely small area as neither the perfection nor the importance of the podcast is apparent. Even if one were inclined to give some points on one or the other axis, the other axis would be infinitely small, so the box would be indiscernible from a flatline, which is what this podcast is.Movie excerpts from Dead Poets Society. Dir. Peter Weir. Touchstone Pictures presents in association with Silver Screen Partners IV, distributed by Buena Vista Pictures, 1989. Film.Podcast Music by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart / CC BY-SA

Jon and Shaun tell us that they are going to reflect on the interview with Dev Ojha. Shaun, as always, starts things off by thinking more highly of himself than is warranted. Shaun places himself in the center of the conversation by issuing a public apology. Within his apology, he asks for forgiveness...centralizing himself as the sacrificial teacher necessary for all student successes. He apparently even takes Dev's critiques as honor! Jon doesn't help anything by pointing out that he doesn't want to talk about Shaun's "plight" and then proceeds to talk about Shaun's "plight" for five minutes. Finally, after about 18 minutes, the two decide that they should probably talk about the topic at hand.Jon points out that a completely legitimate interpretation of the Dev interview is wrongheaded, and he suspects the listeners have unfortunately come to that legitimate interpretation. He points out that Dev is totally unique and deserves a unique curriculum. Then he points out that his uniqueness should not be a reason for treating only Dev uniquely...good luck with untangling all that, dear listener.Then we get to the "interest" section of the podcast. This section has the two interlocutors saying the word "interest" over and over again. I started counting, but I apparently share Shaun's counting defect as I lost count somewhere in the high teens. Shaun tries to take the stance that interest should be disconnected from occupation as if our professions are not perfectly aligned with interest. Jon then suggests that the educational system is "abusive" and explains his position. Then Shaun agrees with everything that Jon just said, spending several minutes repeating his exact argument...I mean his exact argument, but Shaun says it's not "abuse." Look, obviously the educational system is not abusive. Right? I mean Shaun is right? I know that's strange to say, but I feel like I got tricked into saying that. Wait...now Jon has convinced Shaun that it is abuse. And now, Jon, clever guy, is arguing that it is not abuse. So the educational system is not abusive. Shaun agrees again, and now Shaun agrees with himself again.The two end the show by thought policing the listeners, suggesting that strict adherence to the standard school model is "morally dubious." Everyone deserves an individual educational approach! Totally practical! Good job guys! [sarcasm]

Well, these guys finally start to make sense. Clearly they recognize the problem with forcing a student through Shaun's English class, and they both seem to support this former student, Dev, who chose to pursue other studies rather than attend Shaun's class.The course of the discussion reveals that Shaun mainly put the effort of teaching on other students as he deferred answering direct questions from Jon indicating that he could not remember specifics about class but only remembered that a lot of other students were involved. Wow! What a teacher! He remembered that he had students! Nor could he remember what they "studied" in class. Dev had to fill in the gaping holes in Shaun's memory. In the midst of all of Shaun's confusion, hilariously he finds inspiration in Dev's recounting of the forgotten wisdom Shaun once espoused. Either Shaun has lost a significant aspect of his humanity, or Dev simply miscredits wise tidbits that he intuited while sitting bored in Shaun's class.I won't dwell on this too long because I hear from my sources that these guys are going to do a commentary on this episode. I will save further critique until then.Music by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart / CC BY-SA

Jon and Shaun tease the audience with their imminent disagreement about unschooling. Jon takes an unschooling posture. Shaun defends the schools...but only if a person have sufficient privilege. Jon then realizes that Shaun is only going to defend privileged access to schools, but he was hankering for an argument against a standard public school defender. Realizing that Shaun was not going to take the stance, Jon had to shift his position to present the counter argument to his own argument. This all happens in the first few minutes of discussion. Shaun will remain oblivious to the fact that Jon has to now carry the entire argument they promised to have, and Shaun assumes his throne overlooking the quibbling in the commons below while sending his child (and soon to be children) to a magical school that only he knows about. Shaun continues his rhetoric of superiority making absurd claims that basic reading need not be required until the age of 18. Jon tried to save the credibility of the podcast by claiming that Shaun is exaggerating. Shaun says, “maybe a little” - a clear dog whistle to the illiterati. Jon, in his back and forth between the debate positions, challenges Shaun to join the unschoolers to which Shaun responds with a loud whistle to the authoritarians that “a little bit of oppression is good,” but even he understands his rhetoric might be a bit much there and backs off. I think his point is that pressure clarifies the motivation for learning, but he never says that. Jon accuses Shaun of strawmanning unschoolers. Shaun agrees and then launches into a story about how some past experience did not inform his thinking on unschooling and was not relevant to the conversation at all.Jon, always more focused but often less sympathetic, talks about how teachers are agents of the institution, and that he realizes that he is an agent for the institution. He says he know this, but then he contemplates his humanity noting how surprising it is that he never thinks of himself as the thing that he is. Shaun agrees. Listen to this podcast if you want to hear two people try to disagree but who don't really disagree with each other so much as they reveal their own cognitive dissonances. People, we need to stop crediting loud vocalizations as legitimate debate. Such behavior is the mark of confused men who cannot make sense of their stations in society.Music by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart / CC BY-SA

Shaun makes it almost seven whole minutes without entirely dismissing the premise of the discussion. Jon forces him into another 50 minutes of conversation anyway. Jon gives an anecdote that he claims is not proof, but after delivering his anecdote, both Jon and Shaun treat the anecdote as universal truths. Shaun is suspiciously vague about whether or not he can count.Jon points out that the reason why we don't see mental education as analogous to physical education is because mental education is the pathway to egalitarianism. This is a welcome point, one of the few. More analogies follow. Then Jon recalls the high-minded Jurassic Park for his next insight using the "Life will find a way" quote to inspire his "Learning will find a way." I guess that's an insight. Michael Crichton probably deserves a shoutout though.Maybe the most entertaining part of the episode is when Shaun decides to use a basketball analogy without knowing the fundamentals of basketball. He seriously thinks he can make reasonable connections while knowing nothing about the sport! It's funny...and for once I am laughing with Shaun at Shaun...and it's still going on...just stop, please. The simple point is that some players have strengths different from other players. The players come together as a team. Just make the damn analogy to society you ridiculous Platonist!Anyway, I can't listen anymore.Music by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart / CC BY-SA

Wow! These guys are going after Jaime Escalante now…not the actual person, but the character portrayed by Edward James Olmos in the great movie, Stand and Deliver. Of course, both of them used to like the movie but now find themselves critical of their former judgments due to their tendency to overthink absolutely everything. After a few minutes of chuckling about the cringe factor of the 80s, the two then analyze the movie as though it were a real classroom situation from the 80s. Some insights come from this exercise though all of the insights can be undermined by realizing that the movie is a dramatization, not a reality, but our two movie critics seem caught up in it, so just go with it. What else can you do?Movie excerpts from Stand and Deliver. Dir. Ramon Menendez. Warner Bros., 1988. Film.Podcast Music by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart / CC BY-SA

In this episode, we didn't just learn about teaching; we learned about life...well, sort of.Shaun realizes that he once was a clown. He seems to believe that he is no longer one. Jon fancied himself a hero and clearly has given up on that self image. The two discuss other personas and think about student responses to those personas. They analyze popular teaching styles in a way that is less than flattering, as though some styles are more about inflating teacher egos than educating students. They are pretty hard on themselves, too. These guys are clearly trying to unburden their guilty consciences today.After all of their reminiscing and confessing, they do hit upon an insight of sorts - that the teacher needs to mediate between the individual's desires and societal expectations - do teachers not already know that? Well, if they don't, then good job Jon and Shaun. You have illuminated the obvious. Before they get too far into exploring their "insight," Shaun quickly sees the danger of more paperwork and panics, but Jon, hero-like, saves his buddy by telling him that mindful people don't have to do paperwork. Maybe you are the hero Jon, just maybe.Music by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart / CC BY-SA

These two tormented souls try to mount a proper case for society emphasizing certain essential schooling, but within minutes of the start of the show, they refer to society at large as tyrannical and spend the rest of the episode mounting the weakest defense imaginable for literacy, numeracy, and citizenship. Despite this failure, the listener finds himself strangely sympathetic to these two teachers' plights, and the episode becomes less about what Jon and Shaun are saying and more about living through some of their pain as teachers who care about young persons. Shaun continually tries to save the purpose of the conversation (a defense of societal expectations) while Jon dismisses the purpose of the episode and promotes an optimistic vision of a school setting that can serve children in crisis. Shaun, uplifted by Jon's vision, cobbles together what sounds like a presidential campaign speech, but his inspiration lacks precision and his pronoun antecedent difficulties confuse his final point. Music by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart / CC BY-SA

Shaun asks Jon why he chose to study English in college and explains how he came to deeply appreciate his own choice to study "English." They both then point out how they ruined that study of literature for students by teaching literature. Jon shares why he performed so poorly in math classes in high school before pointing out that he could manage the subject when he had time to approach it on his own terms. A hopeful herpetologist student from early in Shaun's career carries the conversation further since Shaun could then blame someone else besides himself for ruining learning. The importance of failure comes up, and while the two fail to point out the troubling artificiality of consequences that attend failure in school (perhaps they can do so in another episode), they do make some good points about how fear of failure perpetuates mediocrity and diminishes the possibility of authentically engaging in learning. They conclude by designating the grading system as a dehumanizing process, but they relent a little, excusing teachers who give grades as non-dehumanizers probably because they want listeners and if they suddenly offend their entire core audience, things might not go so well.Music by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart / CC BY-SA

Jon and Shaun tell the story of what their lives were like as students and how they got into teaching, and why both of them left teaching only to return some years later with a more mature eye on the profession. Jon and Shaun have been discussing the nature of education for years and would like to share their insights with a wider audience.Music by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart / CC BY-SA