Podcasts about Unschooling

This podcast is made possible by our listeners and viewers. If this show has brought you value, you can support it by becoming a member of The Way Forward, our platform designed to help you find the health and freedom community (people, practitioners, schools, farms, and more) near you. Your membership directly supports the podcast and the work we do.Explore Dr. Tom Cowan's books, educational resources, and curated wellness products at DrTomCowan.com. Use codes TWF10, TWF15, and TWF20 at checkout for savings on eligible items (codes are stackable and discounts vary by item). If your child is not listening to you, they're sending you an important message that you keep ignoring.Dr. Tom Cowan, alternative medicine doctor and author of Common Sense Child Rearing, joins me to unpack what he learned from decades in family medicine, raising his own children, and years of watching families up close.Food fights aren't about food. Defiance isn't a phase. Childhood illness sometimes says more about the parents than the child. We talk about the exact cases that changed his thinking, including one autistic boy who stopped tearing the office apart the moment Dr. Cowan named what was really going on in the family.We also get into the trap of "gentle parenting", the MAHA movement's role in keeping people dependent on authority, and why the health freedom crowd keeps recreating the same top-down dynamic at the dinner table.If your kids have started mirroring things back to you that feel uncomfortably accurate, this one will land.You'll Learn:[0:00] Introduction[7:20] Modern parenting has become government at home[8:51] Food fights are never about food, and how coercion backfires[15:38] How to set boundaries around screens and sugar without becoming authoritarian[29:44] Explaining “the why” beats saying no “because I said so”[37:57] Is childhood defiance natural, or a symptom of authoritarian parenting?[46:33] Reprimanding kids often reflects on us, not what they did[55:41] The health freedom movement's integrity problem, and how MAHA keeps you in the system[1:03:50] Steph Curry would never have discipline problems teaching kids basketball[1:14:25] Real education happens once you stop feeling guilty about schoolFind more from Dr. Cowan:Dr. Tom Cowan | WebsiteNew Biology Clinic | Website Find more from Alec:Alec Zeck | Instagram | XThe Way Forward | InstagramDonate to The Way Forward here.The Way Forward is Sponsored By:Eating well shouldn't be complicated. Dr. Cowan's Garden makes it simple to increase your daily nutrient density with their signature vegetable powders, clean pantry staples, and pasture-raised products. Family-run and committed to "beyond-organic" quality.* Offer: Use code THEWAYFORWARD for 15% off your first order.* Shop: Dr. Cowan's GardenEarth Runners: Reconnect with the earth's natural charge and move naturally by using code FWRD10 for 10% off here.BEAM Minerals: Feel the Difference in Days: Join thousands recharging with plant-based minerals. Click here for 20% Off Your First Bottle of BEAM.

We invited a panel of three unschooling parents to join us to talk about what happens when unschooling kids choose school. Ari, Terri, and Kinsey are all members of the Living Joyfully Network and they all have children who have chosen to try school. They shared about what led to the decision, how the expectations of school affected them and their families, what they and their kids learned from their experiences, and how their foundation of unschooling helped them along the way. It was really interesting to hear about their unique paths and we hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It's a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it's a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ERIKA: Hello, everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guests today, Ari, Terri, and Kinsey. Hi, everyone. So, I am really excited for this conversation. We invited Ari, Terri, and Kinsey, who are all Living Joyfully Network members, to join us today to talk about what happens when unschooling kids choose to go to school. There are lots of reasons why kids might be interested in trying school. And if they do, it can be a different experience than we might expect, because they’re making that choice themselves. But since people are different, and so are schools, we’ve seen a really wide range of experiences. And so thank you all for joining us to share a bit about your family’s experience. To get us started, can you briefly introduce yourself and share just a bit about your family? And maybe we could start with Ari. ARI: Sure. Hi, I’m Ari. I have three daughters. They are 10, 5, and 7. And we live in Portland, Oregon. We’ve been unschooling for about four years now. And this past year, my 10-year-old decided to go to school. She attended our local public school for fourth grade. ERIKA: Okay. And Terri? TERRI: We live in Swan River, Manitoba, quite a small town. There are four of us, me and my husband, and our two kids, a boy and a girl, Felix and Stella. And Stella decided to go into school this last year, into grade four as well. We live out in the country. It’s nice and quiet out here. And we have various interests that we have going on. ERIKA: Thank you. And Kinsey? KINSEY: Awesome. Hey, yes, I’m Kinsey. I live in Lubbock, Texas. And I have two children, Riley, who’s 15, and Emmy, who’s 12. Emmy chose to try school in 2024, and was there for a little while. So yeah, we had some experience there at our local public school. PAM: Nice. That’s very awesome. Okay, so now let’s get into a little bit more of the details. We’re very excited to hear everyone’s stories. We would love to know how did your child’s choice to go to school come about? And then how did it play out for your family? Certainly like at the beginning, as you guys were adjusting and getting this kind of settled. And would you like to start, Terri? TERRI: Sure, sure. I’m guessing like maybe two years ago, it was coming up to when we could have enrolled her for grade three. And Stella had started asking about school, saying she really wanted to go. And we were, I guess at that point, we homeschooled from when she was young, from the very beginning, and then slowly relaxed into unschooling. So we’d maybe be unschooling for about a year at that point. It felt like we had made this choice to not do school, me and my husband anyway, to not do school. So, it was very tough to wrap our heads around, could she go to school? My husband was very against it. He doesn’t mind me saying he’s like, I said no, he said outright no to her. Outright no to me. He said, we’ve chosen this lifestyle. And this just goes against everything we believe in about the school system. And so that was fair. That was his perspective. And I had that thought as well. But I was kind of keeping it to myself, because I could also see with my child that she’s very, when she knows something or wants something, she knows it through and through, no one will shake her, right? And she’s very strong that way. And I could see that if we held with that no, and held with what we believed was right over what she wanted, that it would be really, really bad for our relationship. And so, my husband and I talked about it. And I just kind of brought that to him that she’s just going to dig her heels in and want it more. And then if one day we let her, maybe she won’t feel comfortable to come to us if it’s not right. So, we’ve had those conversations. Like I said, it took like a year, because that was grade three. And then finally, when it came back around to springtime, we had all talked about it and said, you know, yes, let’s try this out. Let’s try for grade four, there’s really only two schools you can choose from here, either French immersion or English speaking. We could have done French immersion, that was an option. But she was very much against that. So, we enrolled her and also really did lots of work, reassuring her that there would be no, I told you so, you can come home anytime. You can tell us if it’s difficult, but that it was a lot of work. It was a year of work getting to that place. And yeah, it worked out in the end. So, that’s how we came to it. PAM: Very cool. Very cool. Kinsey, what was your experience? KINSEY: Let’s see, school is something that Emmy has mentioned over the years, at times, just something that she wanted to try. I think it’s part of just culture, it’s everywhere. People online talk about experiences at school, good and bad. I think it was kind of like a social experiment for her. Just to see what it was like. So, before we moved here back, we live with my parents in my childhood home, in my hometown. And so she went to the public school that I grew up going to. And still with a lot of staff and stuff that I remember from when I was there, or knew from there, or that knew my parents, that worked with my parents at the school. So, we had a lot of resources, which was great, really helpful. She went up there and was really excited. She was really excited to try it and did okay for the first couple weeks. And then it was like, okay, I’ve seen what this is like and I’m finished with this. But she did not stop going to school, then she would actually stay on and for the rest of the semester, which was pretty challenging for her. Are we going in depth of school experiences right now or how it played out? PAM: Right now, this is just the choice to go to school. Let’s just focus on that piece. KINSEY: Just trying it, I think just trying it. And at the time too, her dad was encouraging her to go. PAM: Makes sense, makes sense. And Ari? ARI: My daughter would mention school a little bit in the few months before she made her decisive statement that she was going. But usually, it would come up like, hey, I think I want to try school. And we would say, okay, and then it would fall away for weeks or months. And then there was one time she had been spending a lot of time during the summer with our neighbor and her good buddy, who goes to school. And the two girls were together one day and they both came up. And my daughter was like, I’m going to school this year, or I want to go to school this year. And something about it was like, this is for real. And so I thought maybe this is actually going to happen. We were three or four weeks from the start of school. So it all felt kind of sudden and there might be a lot to prepare for. But we embraced it. We were like, okay, this is your choice. And so I just enrolled her. And that was pretty straightforward. I think she had, she knew quite a few friends through her soccer team. And that was a big draw. She wanted to spend more time with them. I would say that, in that nine year old year, there were signs of kind of itching for more with life. A little bit less satisfied with our co-op, our little homeschool playgroup type things. And I could see she was just kind of reaching for more. And so I viewed this as an extension of that. So, she started school and really enjoyed it. So that’s where we were. ANNA: Okay, so I’m going to ask about expectations. I feel like school adds some expectations, because they have a way of doing things that’s very different from the way that we all would have been doing it in your families. So how did you handle that change of expectations? And how did your child, did they roll with it? Did they have questions about it? Was it hard to kind of balance those two? And I think, Kinsey, I’ll start with you for this one. KINSEY: Okay, let’s see, expectations. Clearly the schedule part of it was super new and different. So those kinds of expectations, the absences, you know, being there, attendance, there was an expectation that took me a while to embrace. I know how it works. It still took a little bit to maybe get used to those expectations being a part of our life. And the communication expected between me and the school about what was going on with my child. If she wanted to miss a day, is it going to be an excused absence or not, and stuff like that. And keeping track. Thankfully, our school here doesn’t assign homework. That would have been quite difficult, I think, even worse. When Emmy was excited to go to school and motivated, I was excited for her to go to school and motivated to help her with that, because she wanted to be there and wanted to go. Even getting up and getting prepared and getting her stuff that she needed, and making connections even before and all that stuff. It was really fine. It was when she was finished with the experience and couldn’t stop. Just because of what was going on in our family at the time. We were going through a divorce at the time. So that really complicated things. And so she wasn’t able to just come right out. At the beginning of her trying it, that was the expectation. And that was the plan for her to just be able to try it. And then when/if the expectations were too much of a mismatch, or she got her curiosity filled, she got the information she needed to know, or whatever experience, she could come out. And just because of the divorce and the impending case, it wasn’t that easy. And so for the rest of the semester, it was quite challenging to be with the outside expectations that we no longer wanted to be a part of. So that’s just a little bit more complicated and our specific situation. But she pushed through. And I hated it. Honestly. But yeah, there were expectations. It was really interesting. Oh yeah, I forget that I need to tell people what’s going on in our family, I don’t know why she’s not there, and she’s not going to be there. And if she’s going to be back tomorrow or not. And to report everything to that authority figure. It can be challenging, for me anyway. ANNA: Yeah. KINSEY: And once when I was there as well. I had a great school experience. I really did great at school. I was there at that school my whole 12 years. It was fine. It’s going back again, on this side, was interesting. ANNA: I bet. Oh, my goodness. All right, Terri, how about you? TERRI: Stella was all ready to meet all the expectations at the start. Because in something I forgot to mention earlier, when she was talking about wanting to go to school, we’re trying to figure out what she was looking for. Is it the friends? Is it structure? No, she just wanted that school experience. So, she was making her lunch the night before and setting her clothes out and getting to bed on time, which is well on time. She'd say, Okay, I need to be in bed between nine and 10. So, she would set her time and she was there. And then you come up with, a month in or so, some uncomfortable situations. Which kind of leads into what’s expected of me. She had a stuffy nose one morning, and she didn’t want to go to school. And I knew the night before she’d been up to about like 11 or 12. And so my mind went straight to that. She’s not sick enough to stay home. She stayed up too late. She should still go to school. That’s what my parents would have told me. And so there was a lot of work in just a space of 20 minutes one morning, where I was battling back and forth in my head. Make her go to school. No, don’t. But she doesn’t need to be going to school, but she should go to school. No, she doesn’t feel well. And finally, I just called it in. I said, she won’t be in she’s not feeling well. That’s it. And that became my go to anytime that she was just not feeling like going. Sorry, she won’t be in and she’s not feeling well. And that’s it. And what happened? Nothing bad happened. I was kind of like, Oh, someone’s going to call me, someone’s going to find out. I’m going to be caught. So, that was a big expectation that I had to work through. Both of us. She’s always been kind of skeptical about anything or everyone to make sure if people are telling the truth. Well, not necessarily in a whole, but I think with teachers and adults at school, she’s slowly began to see, they’re saying one thing, but doing another, or they’re saying it here, but it doesn’t apply here, or it applies to kids, but it doesn’t apply to them. So she saw this gap. And over those months, anytime she came up to an expectation that was uncomfortable, she’d be a little anxious about it. But then we move through it. And she’d be like, Oh, yeah, right. I think it really broke her trust in just any adults, right? In people who aren’t in our important relationships. And, yeah, I think that was a lot. That was a big part of the journey for all of us, I think. And then she did, she did come out of school in March. I would say, all the way up to Christmas, she was pretty happy. And then by January, she started not to go. She was staying home more often, taking long weekends. Saying it was boring, or coming home with more stories like, Oh, the teacher said this, and I don’t agree with that. And, and then by March, she just didn’t go back after a weekend. She’s like, I don’t want to go back. ANNA: All right, Ari, what about you? And was it? Yeah, what did those expectations bring to the family? And really, even to the other members of the family, too? ARI: Yeah, I think this is so interesting, because we’re all talking about our expectations. And that was the biggest challenge. In our families, my expectation was that my daughter wouldn’t like it, or that it would be this environment that I had built up as this coercive, limiting world for her. And the reality wasn't. It was a widening world for her. It was opening things up. So, I gradually let go of what school meant to me, as an unschooling parent, and just let her have her experience with it. So, that was a journey for me. I would say the expectations from school on to my daughter were similar to what Terri and Kinsey were talking about. The schedule, the showing up, we did have homework, a light homework assignment once a week. And my daughter took all those in stride. Like Terri’s daughter, she would make a lunch, she would get herself up, she would walk herself to school. After a couple weeks, she started doing that and walked herself home. So it was pretty cool to see, I could really celebrate that, this initiated independence. It’s not like, you must do this, because we’re parents trying to help you be independent. It was just, I’m at a phase of life where I kind of want to take on more responsibility for myself. So that was fun to watch. I had another thought, but I can’t think of it right now. ANNA: That’s okay. It may come to you. ERIKA: So, our next question is how you found that your unschooling principals helped you as you were supporting your child in their school experience? And maybe we could start with Terri. TERRI: Yeah, sure. Definitely the idea of holding it lightly, right from the very beginning. Making that decision, just really reminding myself constantly that it’s not a big deal. They can go, they cannot go. We can try to meet some of the expectations school puts on us, and we can let some slide. There’s so much choice. So holding things lightly, all the way through. That was a big one for me. And then also, open and curious, whenever we did meet one of those uncomfortable moments, she would come home from school and tell me something that happened. And you want to jump in and you want to fix it. And you want to suggest all sorts of things, all sorts of great ideas. And I really worked at just being, just shutting up, just being quiet. I let her say all of the things, maybe ask some more questions to help her tell me more. And then either I might make a suggestion, or I might ask her if she wants advice. And sometimes she just needed to let it all out. And then I just kept picking up little nuggets of information, right? And it just was more information for the next thing we ran into. So I think those are really, really helpful. Those are the two best ones. Erika: Yes. How about Ari? ARI: Yeah, I totally agree. Holding it lightly, letting it be their journey, following their lead, kind of matching their energy, showing interest when they’re interested and listening, so much listening. Which I felt was a gift because you hear stories about kids coming home from school and not wanting to share anything with their parents. But that wasn’t my experience. My daughter would share what she learned, share what she did at recess. It just took a couple little questions sometimes for me. And she likes talking about it. So that was really nice. I thought of what I was going to say, which was I love what Kinsey mentioned about matching expectations or something about, there’s a mismatch between the expectations on you and kind of what you’re willing to bring. That’s what I was always looking for. And I think that’s what they are good at. They know that if there’s an outside expectation on them, they have a choice whether they want to stay in the situation and meet those because it’s worth it to them or go a different path. And so I liked looking for that and watching to see if my kids are paying attention to that as well. I also wanted to mention my daughter’s teacher, who was pretty spectacular. I felt like she met my daughter and all the kids on a person level. It was like she saw them as people to interact with, not just pupils to be an authority for. And I think that made a big difference for my daughter’s experience. My daughter liked interacting with her teacher. They would have conversations, they would joke. And that’s the kind of relationship with adults that she’s used to. So that was powerful. But there are also times when the teacher has to be a teacher or there’s expectations on them. And I remember with the report card once, I shared in the network, how my daughter received a report that was, my goal for her is to do her best even on tasks that she’s not very interested in. And it was like, huh, okay. Why? Because that’s an expectation that people should just do things that authority tells them to do. Is that really what we’re trying to instill in our young people? So, that’s just an interesting moment. And we talked about that. We still support you just following your interests. Now I’ve taken us out of the question. Where were we? ERIKA: Unschooling principles. ARI: Yeah, I guess they all fit. Open and curious. Everybody’s voice is important. And your own opinion, your own initiative is the most important. ERIKA: And how about Kinsey? KINSEY: So I think the most important principle for me was open and curious for sure. But also always making sure I was seeing things through Emmy’s eyes. Because school can be such a loaded experience. I think there can be a lot of outside pressure. We had so many people who were really, really, really happy that Emmy was going to school. So, I wanted to be really attentive and make sure that I was really seeing things from her perspective and hearing her and believing about what her experience was. And she had a great experience. The teacher, she had no problems at all with teachers. The teachers really loved her. She didn’t have problems with the work or anything like that. It was, again, I think it was just really a social experience for her, an experiment. And so and then when she was in a situation that she couldn’t easily get out of, it really became my focus to see things from her eyes and be her advocate in the best ways that I could. And keeping all my other unschooling principles. I don’t even really think about things as principles, I guess, it’s just kind of a way of being, a way of life. Tracking with her experience, prioritizing what that is, and the information that we’re getting from that, and responding in the most supportive ways that we can. Within the situation, the scenario that you’re in. I think that’s what I would say, just the ways of unschooling, the ways of being were helpful. Yeah, holding it lightly. Plenty of time, there’s plenty of time. It’s just all so helpful. It’s all so helpful. In what could have been a really highly pressurized or complicated experiment. ANNA: Yeah, it sounds like you were able to keep your connection, even though it did get harder because of just the outside context pieces. KINSEY: That was the most important thing. PAM: Yeah. And I think like the thread through all of your perspectives on it feels different. Like you’re saying it is, it’s just a way of being. And that I feel like at the beginning, those were the expectations you guys were wrestling with a bit. You didn’t want to take on that authority figure, and take on those expectations wholeheartedly from school and then put them on your child. But that you were processing through all the things with them and helping them explore the things, the challenges there and the expectations they wanted to choose to take. Like you were saying Ari, sometimes it’s hard, or it may be an unexpected thing. But in the bigger picture, I want to meet it or to be able to process those things without just being told, you got to do this thing. This is how it is like that. That is huge. I think it's a very different way for them to experience it, even Kinsey, when she did have to stay longer, your extra effort to see through her eyes and to be specifically advocating for her as much as possible. Those are very different experiences for kids, I think. So, I wanted to just dive into this last piece, this last question, because we could come up with all the questions that we wanted. But it would be very interesting for us to hear what else you or your kids would like to share about their school experience. I think it’ll be fun to see what stuck out for you and for them. So would you like to start Ari? ARI: Sure. I might come up with more ideas after I hear Terri and Kinsey's. The one kind of big picture thought I keep having is that the school is very central to our neighborhood. A lot of events happen there. The PTA is very well resourced and very active. There are community events which are centered around the school. It’s probably part of my daughter’s draw to school because that’s where the center of social activity is. And it’s in some ways beautiful and in some ways kind of troubling for me because I can consider the alternative. What if our community built that energy just around ourselves, just around our kids and didn’t tie it to this brick and mortar building where we put kids for six hours a day. I see why my daughter loves to go to school. She loves gym, and music, and library, and recess. And doing projects with her friends. And that’s all possible without the coercion, without required attendance. It requires some structure and a lot of effort, but I think our community could do that without the school. So anyway, this is my own kind of mind wandering. I think there are some wonderful aspects to what a school can be. And it shows just what human potential is to me and what a community could be. That’s my initial thought. PAM: How about you, Terri? TERRI: Wow, yeah, I love that idea. I never thought of it that way, Ari. That’s really cool. So, my mind is spinning there. But yeah, well, first of all, I asked Stella this question. I said, Is there anything you want to share? At first, she wasn’t sure what my question really meant. And I said, well, if there was another family that the child wanted to go to school, and they’ve never been to school, if there was another child who wanted to go to school that has never been before, what would you tell them? And she said, that recess isn’t all it's cracked up to be. People say recess is their favorite part. She’s like, it’s not that great. She did say that, the first few minutes, you’ll have lots of kids who might want to play with you, and then you might end up alone. And I think maybe what she didn’t outright say, I think sometimes being alone was not as fun. But then sometimes she was alone, and was okay being alone. And she’d have an adult, a teacher come up to her and say, Why are you sitting alone? Are you sad? And she’d be like, I’m just sitting alone, leave me. So, that was something she wanted me to share. The whole experience leading up to it was a lot more daunting than the actual experience. In the end, I think I had a lot of work to do, because I worked in this school. My boss was the principal who when my child was four, I said, I think I’m going to homeschool. And he says, that’s a bad idea. I had lots of stuff in my head, thinking about all the thoughts that other people might have with me, choosing to do this, maybe her leaving all that. But in the end, it was okay. Because generally, people are pretty nice. And her teacher was lovely. Very lovely. She was sad to see her go. But yeah, it was a good experience. And I think Stella, now she’s talked about going back sometime, she says maybe grade six. Here, elementary goes up to five, and then they go to junior high six to eight, she said, maybe I’ll go back in grade six. She also said by the time she left, she was bored, that things were easy, or they weren’t interesting. And she was bored. So maybe she’s thinking, by grade six, things will be more complicated and interesting. Who knows, I guess we’ll see. PAM: And Kinsey? KINSEY: So, I’ll talk about Emmy’s experiences that she shared with me when we were talking about this podcast and reflecting about being at school. One thing that she mentioned was that she was really anxious, and what’s interesting, you would not think she was having this experience of school because of the feedback I was getting back from the teachers. But she was really anxious at school all the time. And she was, I think she was guarded, looking, scanning, maybe. And afraid that she was going to get in trouble. And it’s not because she engages in behaviors that would bring on discipline or whatever. But I think it’s just the energy and the atmosphere there. The children are always getting in trouble. There’s a punishment reward system, of course, as most schools have lots of children being yelled at by adults. And there’s a kind of an adversarial, I mean, it’s interesting. There can be a sense of community in the school, maybe it’s around sports teams or the band, or just the school, whatever it is. But then within that, there is a line between adults and children. And it’s very felt. Which probably, now that I’m really thinking about it, was unsettling for her because she’s never lived with that. I mean, we’ve been unschooling since 2018. She was three years old when we came home from preschool. We’ve been in this very partnered relationship her whole life. And other adult child relationships that we’ve fostered and found in our life. So, to be in this place where that’s just not the energy at all, or the way that things are set up. I’m sure that was really unsettling for her, but she said she was really anxious, worried she was going to get in trouble all the time. She said she had felt lots of pressure about her grades, which I found was interesting, too. Because it wasn’t from me. It wasn’t from anybody outside. It was from within herself, which was so interesting to me again, because we haven’t had that. That hasn’t been a thing for us in our lives or for her before that. But I think again, it’s the culture of the environment, of the school environment. The expectations, people are getting in trouble for not meeting expectations. It’s a lot of pressure all of the time, compounded pressure all the time. So, let’s say she was exhausted. She was really burnt out. She got sick a lot. So, we started racking up lots of absences. Terri, like you were saying, so then I’m spending these mornings, half awake, going, Oh, gosh, do I? Is it okay for her to stay home? Or should I go ahead and say you’re going, why am I? Why am I even having this conversation with myself right now? This is ridiculous. But it’s part of the system, right? It’s just it’s part of it. And then after you get so many absences, you get a letter. You have too many absences. We got a letter at the end of the semester. So, that was another stressful thing. I was like, Oh, my gosh, what does this mean? What does this mean for next semester? But anyway, she was really exhausted. She was not sleeping well. Something she learned about school was, this was what she said, she just doesn’t have time for it. She’s busy. She doesn’t have time for school, it takes too much time. And she wasn’t able to spend time with her friends, her pre going to school friends. Her homeschool friends, her online friends, or she really cut into that time. And I think that was really hard for her. So, then what she would end up doing, well, at first, she was going to bed early, it wasn’t that big of a deal, it’s okay, or whatever, worth it, maybe to try. And then after it wasn’t worth it anymore. She really, really needed to be able to spend time with her friends. And she would do that. And she would stay up. So she would stay up at night to do that. She would not get the hours of sleep that she needed to go to school or to to feel good at school. I mean, so she was just exhausted. At this point, she does not have any plans of trying school again, that I know of, I mean, maybe online or college or something like that. We’ve talked about stuff like that, but not going to the local public school. And I just have to wonder, and really, I feel like actually, I don’t really have to wonder that much. I think because she entered into it with it being this open opportunity. And then that was taken. That agency was taken. And then she was having to continue to go for longer. I just don’t know if she would chance it again. And then not being able to come out at her choosing when she knew. So that was it. I mean, it was rough. There were some really fun things about it. But altogether, it was very rough. And she’s not interested anymore. TERRI: Yeah, and that sounds like Stella. ANNA: Yeah, for sure. So just because we didn’t really cover this specifically. Stella did decide to come out, Terri, your daughter, and then Ari, your daughter is still enjoying it. Ready to go back, I guess it's summer break now, though, maybe, and she’ll be going in soon for the fall. ARI: Yes, she’ll be starting fifth grade in the fall. I definitely think about, how do I keep the options open? Of course, she can always stop. But because the social life is so important to her, I think it would be very hard for her to choose to go away from school, even if there were other aspects that she didn't like. Like the forced learning, the forced homework stuff, if that got to be hard, would she, it might be a challenge for her to weigh those two things. And so sometimes I think about keeping up my capacity, the kind of friendships I have with the unschooling community, so that if she were to choose to come out, it would be an attractive option. Anyway, that’s another thing that I consider sometimes. But yeah, she’s going to school in fifth grade. And she’s also had some influence on her younger sisters. So, they would also like to try school soon. PAM: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say, if anybody would like to speak to that, because your kids who chose to go to school or try school have siblings as well. And just how that unfolded having one sibling going to school, like managing the schedules, too. And as you said, Ari, a little bit of it is just the excitement of it, or that she would like them to be there too? ARI: I think it’s a whole combination of those things. There’s this joy that she had that she wanted her sisters to experience too. She did talk about it, we could see each other in the hallways, we could be at recess together, you would have this teacher that there’s this knowingness. And at first, I had more resistance to her sisters being influenced by that than I did with her initial decision to go to school, because I could tell her decision was from herself. And her sisters were being influenced by her. And at first I was resistant to that. I wanted to provide information to my other daughters about listening to what they wanted. There’s plenty of time. Don’t have to do it now. I wanted to share with them a little bit about what I think happens in school. So we talked about it. But ultimately, I had to let go of wanting zero influence from my oldest because that’s how our family is part of their life, right? So, they get to decide how much to listen to her and to try something that she’s suggesting, and learn from that experience. So, we’re embracing it again. ANNA: It’s going to be really fun to see how that plays out. But I think for all of them, it may be a lesson in people are different. To find that something that works so well for one may not for the other or it may be that it works in a different way and is still beautiful. But I think that’s going to be really interesting. I am curious about that. So Terri, how did their brother feel about it? Or did that ever bring up topics of conversation? TERRI: Oh, for sure. We ask every once in a while, like, Oh, are you ever interested? And the answer is always no. And always a hard no. So it could change and grow over time. But I know he said, and I asked if I could share this. And he said, Okay. So, his main reason is that he wouldn't go to school, is that there might be some things he wants to do, but there might be things he doesn’t want to do. And he doesn’t want to be told he has to do the things that he doesn’t want to do. Right? It’s agency, he loses his agency. He’s eight. And it’s true. I mean, you don’t have a whole lot. Some of it’s really great, fun stuff. But you still have to do it in a certain order, you still have to do it for a certain amount of time. That’s his main reason. I asked him if there’s a difference from when she’s at school to when she’s home now, and he wasn’t really able to say. From our perspective, kind of observing, I think they’re playing a lot together, with their online friends, they’ll all be in a call together, and they’ll play online. Right now they’re out on the trampoline together, I feel like, when she went away, it did create a bit of a separation. And then when she came home, she kind of wanted to do her own thing. If she goes back again, that can always be different too, as they grow. But yeah, it’s something I noticed. ANNA: Did Riley have anything to say, Kinsey? Or did she just think, that’s Emmy, Emmy doing Emmy. KINSEY: Emmy’s doing Emmy things. Riley has absolutely no desire whatsoever in going to school. And she didn’t have any feelings about Emmy going to school either. It was hard with the schedule expectations. When it was okay for Riley to stay up late and be playing, or video games, laughing with my mom late at night, when I was trying to help Emmy wind down and try to get her enough sleep for school the next day. Just trying to be aware of all of that. But it was a little bit tricky sometimes. Just didn’t feel good. TERRI: Yeah, I agree. We got into that too. Their rooms are next to each other and going in at night and say, could you just play quietly? It’s after 9. I would say after nine, can you make sure headphones are on and speak in a low voice just just to help your sister out. So, sometimes it got uncomfortable. You’re just like, be quiet, be quiet, reminding to be quiet. But, no, I don’t want to, I don’t want to do this to you. But I also want your sister to sleep. KINSEY: You end up kind of having to be an enforcer. And that’s not where I want to be at all. It is not at all the position that I want to be in. And that actually can really bother people. And did bother people that I was not interested in forcing anyone to do anything. ANNA: Yeah, because they all have ideas, right? I’m just going to pull out a couple things. And then we’ll just talk about what came up. I thought it was so interesting, because we’ve seen this a lot, Terri, that you mentioned, the lead up is so much more stressful than the actual event of going to school. Because I think we see that over and over again, with people who unschool their kids, there’s a lot of worry about what’s going to happen, what’s it going to be like, and really across the board, kids that have stayed or not stayed. So, while it’s not that it’s always the perfect match, the fears that we had ahead of time really don’t play out. So I thought that was really interesting. And then Kinsey, that piece you were talking about with adults and kids, I was thinking just of all the adults in Emmy’s life, she has so many beautiful adults in her life that just celebrate her and delight in her and how that delta must have felt really intense. And I think in other situations, it may not, but I think that is, I think, a hard part about it, that kids and adults, we kind of set up this adversarial relationship that doesn’t need to be. And we see in our lives how it doesn’t have to be that way. But it is a part of that environment. And then just quickly, Ari, that idea of community, I’m working with someone who has this vision of creating a community village. That is to me kind of the dream, because it is bringing adults and kids together to just learn and explore and have resources together. And I think, oh my gosh, if this actually works, it would be amazing. Because we do like community. It is fun to share resources. It is fun to have those different opportunities. But why do we have to be at a place where we have to give away so much agency and where we have to really segregate kids is so hard. But I love your point that for your daughter, it’s worth it, right? She’s getting out of it what she needs to get out of it right now. And it may always be that way for her. I think it’s just, it’s a good testament to sometimes we do need to experiment. It’s their own life. They need to see what works for them, because there is no one right answer. A lot of things bubbled up when you were talking. PAM: That’s what I did. I did really appreciate the point of this. Okay, I’ll finish my sentence. The point of how the lead up can be so much more challenging than the actual experience. And we see that so often, when parents are almost feeling like they need to adopt the school authority before the child even starts, because now I have to make sure they’re up to grade level or whatever, whatever. And we encourage them so often, that there are kids in school right now at every level in any topic. So number one, is that you don't have to use your authority and change your relationship completely with your child, so that they can become what you imagine to be a good student before they even go to school. You've been unschooling for years and then school comes in. And then now there’s just so much processing to do. And you guys all spoke about how that was yours, and your work to do. And I think you all expressed that beautifully, which leads into the other piece that I was just so happy for you all to come and talk about your experience, because it doesn’t need to change your relationship at all. As we talked about the unschooling principles that can weave right through your days, and that the focus is still on the child, and their choices, and how they’re helping them process how they’re experiencing things. We talked so much about giving them space, without needing to jump into fix, you really need to give them the space to do their processing, right? And, and then sometimes asking, do you even want me to say anything? Would you like my experience? Would you like to hear what I’m thinking about it? You don’t have to lose that relationship that you have with all your children, just because one or more choose to go to school. Fundamentally, it’s still an exploration. And yeah, you mentioned being open and curious multiple times, I think that really is so huge, because that reminds us to see things through their eyes, to see how the experience is feeling for them, to see them choose the hard things. So often, people say you can’t give kids a choice to go to school, they’d never go to school. They’d never do hard things, so much of the societal narrative around kids only doing things when they’re forced to do things is just bunk. Because when you give the kids a space to actually think about what they want to do and make choices, and see how they unfold and continue to make choices, you see them in action, their choices make so much sense, even if we would not make the same choices ourselves, the choices they’re making in that moment, make sense. And just see them doing so much competent processing and choice making, right? Think of all the experience that they get just with that, in figuring out what they want to do day to day. Anyway, thank you so much. ERIKA: I think it’s so interesting. And I love how we got to hear such different experiences. And it reminds me of people are different again, every child is so different. And all the teachers are different. And it’s kind of the luck of the draw with that sometimes and what is the school environment like? And so I just think it’s super unique. And so that’s really fun to hear about. And then also, I just wanted to mention how I know sometimes when a child wants to go to school, it really can trigger an unschooling parent big time thinking I must be doing something wrong. If they’re asking to go there, I’ve been doing all the deschooling, convincing myself about how damaging it was in various ways. And just really questioning the importance of that. So, I know it’s such a journey for parents to go on in this case. We want to be able to support them in going, without us going back to our previous mindset, which I think is so hard. And so yeah, I feel like I’ve heard some parents say, we’re not unschoolers anymore, because our kids are in school, or, have that kind of feeling. And that’s why I feel like we always like to keep talking about unschooling as more of that focus on relationships, these kinds of things of giving our kids autonomy and all of that. And so you don’t lose that just because they’re back in school. And so I think that’s really cool. And if anyone has anything else that came up? TERRI: I will echo what Pam said of this fear that they’re not going to be ready. How many years did we not work on specific math things or specific writing things or printing or handwriting, and I’m thinking what will it be like? But she seemed to excel every time I talked to her teacher, she’s like, oh, she’s so wonderful. She asks questions, and she’s involved and is very good. I mean, that could be just her too. But our children are just built for learning, right? They’re built for learning, and they go to school, well, supposedly to learn. So, they’re coming in and the teachers are ready to teach. It doesn’t matter where the kid is. Because again, like Pam said, there are 10 different levels in a class of 15. Every child is different, even if they went to school from age five, or they’re just starting now. And yeah, if I can just underline that, don’t worry about it. I worried about it too. I just wasted energy worrying about that. ANNA: Yeah, I think it’s the choice thing. Because I think when someone’s choosing to be there, I think the teachers just love that because these teachers are beautiful people, right? They are there because they love kids, because they want to create a great environment. And so to have a child who wants to be there and is excited to be there and wants to hear what they have to say, that’s going to just set them so far ahead. Even if they don’t know every single thing that someone else next to them knows, I think that energy of that choice makes such a difference. KINSEY: Okay, that really brought something to mind. She did mention a lot at the time. And we’ve talked about it since then, too, but it was so frustrating to her being in a classroom setting when it was so clear that children didn’t want to be there. If it’s something interesting that they were doing that she really wanted to participate in, or wanted the teacher to be able to explain how to do it because she wanted to do it. And then there were classroom management things going on. It was really, really frustrating for her. And she would get really frustrated at the other students and couldn’t understand. But it’s a totally different story, you’re coming from a completely different place. And she’s even seen that in homeschool classes. She went to a zoology class for a semester, I don’t even think she went the whole semester, she was kind of bored with the classroom set lecture style setting. There was, again, another thing she wanted to just try. And, but it was the same. You could tell that there were children there who really probably weren’t interested in being there. They were there because they were being put there. And it was frustrating. It was really frustrating for her. So she likes being a part of things and group stuff and class stuff when the others are there and choosing to be there. They want to be there. And they want to learn and because that synergy feels good, you know. PAM: And I will say we saw that too in rec classes, like with Michael’s karate. There were some kids who were there because their parents wanted them to be there, for whatever reason, so it wasn’t their choice. And I remember him having the same kinds of reactions and being so happy to be asked to move up to the adult class a year earlier than typical, because it’s a choice. So everybody there wants to be there and everybody’s into it. Fundamentally being able to choose where you go makes such a difference. Just look at kids at school and think these are kids. That’s why society in general thinks kids don’t want to learn. You have to make them do things. But that’s just because that’s the situation you’ve put them in and they are reacting to the situation. That isn’t them naturally as a human being, as a child, that is a young human being in that environment. Yeah, so interesting. ERIKA: It’s really sad to think, most kids don’t have that experience of getting to follow their own interests with other people who also want to follow that interest. It’s such a different environment. ARI: So, just on that choice piece. There’s also a choice of what to make of the metrics. There’s metrics everywhere. Like my daughter took, I think, three practice tests, three progress tests, and then the state assessment at the end of the year. And she got four report cards. They’re always telling her stuff about herself. But we talked about how you have a choice of how to interpret that, which was not my experience. For 22 years of my life, I thought this authority knows me better than I know myself. So, I like viewing the assessments very differently, too. It’s huge. ERIKA: I feel like that just creates a whole different experience, so much more empowering for your kids. Thank you all so much for joining us. This was amazing. And we hope everyone at home enjoyed the conversation. And we invite you to join all of us in the Living Joyfully Network. It’s a warm and welcoming online community of hearted parents, a nonjudgmental space where you can explore what the ideas might look like day to day in your unique family, and be a part of conversations that are just like this. Your first month is free. So you can get a sense of whether it’s a good fit for you. And we would be really excited to welcome you to learn more. And to join us, you can follow the link in the show notes or just go to livingjoyfully.ca and choose network at the top of the page. Thank you so much and wishing everyone a wonderful day. ALL: Thank you. Bye!

A recent Parents.com article explaining the pros and cons of unschooling raises an important question: Are these really problems with unschooling—or signs that we're still defining learning through a school lens?In this episode, Sue Patterson looks at the concerns raised about basic skills, parental involvement, free time, and schedules—and explores where homeschooling parents may need to pivot.Are children really learning only when they're completing lessons? Does making them study subjects they dislike prepare them for the future? And what might they lose when their curiosity is repeatedly interrupted by an adult's curriculum checklist?We'll also explore what involved unschooling parenting actually looks like—and why starting with the learner may make more sense in today's world than starting with a predetermined body of knowledge.If you're ready to move away from the school version of learning but aren't sure what to do next, Unschooling 101 and Learning Math Without Curriculum can help. Both courses are included in the Unschooling Starter Bundle for $99 through July.Find the Unschooling Starter Bundle:https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/product/Unschooling-Starter-BundleMore about the July Special:https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/build-your-unschooling-confidence Let me know what you think of this!Support the show_____________________________________________________You don't have to do this alone.Try Creating Confidence free for 7 days.Whether you prefer daily encouragement or a supportive community with live coaching, you can explore it all and see what fits your family best.Choose the level of support that fits you best—from daily encouragement to live coaching and community.Come spend a week with us!Creating Confidence OptionsUNSCHOOLING 101 CourseMath WITHOUT Curriculum CourseUnschooling Transcript CourseSeasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resourceswww.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

Danielle Vandehei is a world-schooling sailor mum who, with her husband and son, spent the last four years building a life around sailing, exploration and learning through experience.Danielle shares how a breaking point on land — a demanding job, a young child, and a longing for more intentional time together — pushed the family to sell their home, their farm animals, and nearly everything they owned to learn to sail from scratch. She's honest about the messy, non-linear reality behind that decision: budget overruns, a house that took a year to sell, a stint in a minivan through Mexico, and plenty of "we're not in alignment yet, that's okay" moments along the way.How does education actually works aboard their boat — starting not with a curriculum, but with deschooling themselves as parents first. Danielle explains how her son learns numbers through fishing, reading through his fish identification book, and social confidence through navigating world-school hubs full of kids of every age and language.Danielle has created Water World Micro Expeditions, the family's new venture inviting other families aboard to experience sailing, marine life, and reconnection with nature in San Blas, Panama — plus where their vision is headed next.Key TakeawaysDeschool the parent first. Before a child can learn differently, the adult often has to unlearn their own assumptions about what "proper" education looks like.Follow the interest, not the age bracket. Danielle's son learns to read through a fish identification book and does mental math through abacus — because those are his interests, not a set curriculum.Learning is 0 to 99, not 5 to 18. There's no finish line — removing the pressure of a deadline changes how both kids and adults relate to learning.Nothing about this life was linear. Selling a 40-acre property took eight months; the house took a year to sell; they went from camper to minivan to boat and back again. Alignment came in its own time.Resilience is the standout FIRE value here — the willingness to stay in motion through setbacks (a blown transmission, a slow house sale) rather than let fear shut the plan down.Social confidence grows through real exposure, not curriculum: Danielle's son now approaches kids and adults of any age or language unprompted, something she attributes directly to years of varied, real-world interaction.Community over content. Water World Micro Expeditions isn't about replicating school on a boat — it's about giving families a lived experience of sailing, marine life, and reconnecting with themselves and each other.Chapters:00:02 - Introduction to World Schooling04:15 - Transition to a New Way of Living09:51 - Transitioning to a New Lifestyle16:38 - Deschooling and Adapting to New Learning Environments27:47 - Nurturing Well-Being in Education34:22 - Connecting with Nature and Learning through Experience37:50 - Building a Vision for Water Worldhttps://waterworldmicroexpeditions.com/Facebook Danielle Marie VandeheiIG- Legacy_throughmotherhood

Would an unschooling course you can work through step by step—or a library of resources you can pull from when you need them—fit you better?Some unschooling parents want a clear path they can follow from beginning to end. Others want trusted help waiting for them when questions about deschooling, technology, math, or doing enough appear.In this short episode, Sue explains the difference between two kinds of self-paced unschooling support:• The Unschooling Starter Bundle—with Unschooling 101 and Learning Math Without Curriculum• The Unschooling Parent Toolkit—with all 25 unschooling guidesBoth options are $99 through July 31.See both options and choose the one that fits you:https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/build-your-unschooling-confidenceLet me know what you think of this!Support the show_____________________________________________________You don't have to do this alone.Try Creating Confidence free for 7 days.Whether you prefer daily encouragement or a supportive community with live coaching, you can explore it all and see what fits your family best.Choose the level of support that fits you best—from daily encouragement to live coaching and community.Come spend a week with us!Creating Confidence OptionsUNSCHOOLING 101 CourseMath WITHOUT Curriculum CourseUnschooling Transcript CourseSeasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resourceswww.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

Why does it feel like unschooling isn't working—even when you can see learning happening? The problem may be the school timelines you're still using to measure your child.Many homeschooling and unschooling parents worry that their children aren't reading, doing math, becoming independent, or preparing for the future soon enough. We may have left school behind, but its milestones can still shape how we define progress—and turn ordinary uncertainty into fear.In this episode, Sue looks at why timelines make unschooling so difficult to trust, how today's concern can become a frightening story about the future, and what parents can use instead of grade levels and curriculum benchmarks.Through July: Get Unschooling 101 and Learning Math Without Curriculum together for $99. Learn how to reframe education and put learning without curriculum into practice. https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/product/Unschooling-Starter-BundleLet me know what you think of this!Support the show_____________________________________________________You don't have to do this alone.Try Creating Confidence free for 7 days.Whether you prefer daily encouragement or a supportive community with live coaching, you can explore it all and see what fits your family best.Choose the level of support that fits you best—from daily encouragement to live coaching and community.Come spend a week with us!Creating Confidence OptionsUNSCHOOLING 101 CourseMath WITHOUT Curriculum CourseUnschooling Transcript CourseSeasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resourceswww.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

Is your child really behind... or are you comparing them to the wrong timeline?When we leave school, do we have to carry the school's timeline with us?Doesn't the freedom to learn outside a classroom give us a different way to measure growth?In this episode, we're exploring one of the most common fears homeschooling and unschooling parents face: the worry that their child is falling behind. But before we answer that question, I want to challenge the assumptions behind it.If you've ever found yourself wondering whether your child is learning enough, reading soon enough, or keeping pace with everyone else, this conversation will help you see learning—and your child—through a different lens.If this episode has you looking at your own child a little differently, you may have questions that are unique to your family.That's exactly what we talk through inside my Creating Confidence Community.https://cc.unschoolingmom2mom.com/checkout/creating-confidence-membershipEvery week, parents bring questions about reading, math, teenagers, motivation, transcripts, screens... and yes, those worries about whether their child is "behind."If you'd like to experience those conversations for yourself, I'd love to invite you to come spend a week with us.You can join a coaching call, meet other unschooling parents, browse the resource library, or simply listen in.Your first week is free, so you'll have plenty of time to see whether it's the kind of support you've been looking for.I hope to see you there.Let me know what you think of this!Support the show_____________________________________________________You don't have to do this alone.Try Creating Confidence free for 7 days.Whether you prefer daily encouragement or a supportive community with live coaching, you can explore it all and see what fits your family best.Choose the level of support that fits you best—from daily encouragement to live coaching and community.Come spend a week with us!Creating Confidence OptionsUNSCHOOLING 101 CourseMath WITHOUT Curriculum CourseUnschooling Transcript CourseSeasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resourceswww.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

4:15 - Did you ever go to school growing up?4:53 - How would you define unschooling?6:45 - What are things that you loved about growing up as unschoolers and what do you wish your parents had done differently?8:55 - Do you feel that you were limited in what you were able to do by not having explicit instruction in math?13:08 - Would unschooling be helpful for students with special needs?15:00 - Is unschooling unstructured?18:00 - Are there things that you believe that children should be forced to do?22:06 - How did you learn to clean if you weren't forced to clean?27:00 - How did you learn to read as an unschooler?34:25 - What was a typical day like growing up unschooling?36:35 - How did you socialize as unschoolers?44:24 - What role did your father play in your upbringing?50:00 - What role do adult mentors play as unschoolers?52:30 - How can a family unschool with limited resources?56:00 - What were your interests as a child and how have those interests carried over into your adult life?1:05:00 - Did you go to or graduate from college?1:08:50 - How long did it take you to learn all the math that you needed to go to college?1:20:00 - How do you handle technology as unschoolers?1:36:50 - How did you get free from technology addiction?PURCHASE SHEVA AND ESTHER'S BOOK HERE: "Little Changes with Chloe and Theo" https://www.amazon.com/Little-Changes-Chloe-Sheva-Polak/dp/B0H4KYWH8H

Summer has a funny way of making homeschooling parents feel like they should have a plan. Even unschooling parents can start worrying about filling the time, finding a routine, or doing... more.Being between one school year and the next can feel surprisingly uncomfortable. Maybe it's the extra space.In this episode, we're exploring why those in-between seasons make us want to rush into decisions—to buy something, fix something, or make a plan—and why slowing down to observe your child may bring more clarity than planning ever could.It's almost as if creating a plan will fill the space and stop the worrying.Read at the Blog:https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/summer-the-in-between-seasonNEW! Try Sue's Creating Confidence Community for a week - for Free!https://cc.unschoolingmom2mom.com/checkout/creating-confidence-membershipLet me know what you think of this!Support the show_____________________________________________________You don't have to do this alone.Try Creating Confidence free for 7 days.Whether you prefer daily encouragement or a supportive community with live coaching, you can explore it all and see what fits your family best.Choose the level of support that fits you best—from daily encouragement to live coaching and community.Come spend a week with us!Creating Confidence OptionsUNSCHOOLING 101 CourseMath WITHOUT Curriculum CourseUnschooling Transcript CourseSeasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resourceswww.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

When your kid won't get off screens, even a simple request can quickly turn into a battle. Many homeschooling and unschooling parents find themselves caught in this frustrating pattern. What starts as "time for dinner" or "we need to leave" suddenly becomes an argument, leaving everyone wondering why it escalated so quickly.In this episode, Sue Patterson explores why screen time battles happen, what children experience when they're deeply engaged in gaming, and how understanding those transitions can help reduce conflict without relying on more rules or consequences.In this episode you'll learn:Why screen time battles escalate so quicklyWhat children experience when they're deeply engaged in video games and gamingWhy transitions away from screens can feel so difficultHow repeated conflicts create predictable family patternsPractical ways to reduce power struggles around screen timeWhy understanding your child's perspective often changes everythingWhether you're homeschooling, unschooling, or simply trying to create a healthier relationship with screens, this episode will help you understand why these moments happen—and how to make them feel less like a battle.Read transcript at the blog:https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/when-your-kid-wont-get-off-screens-why-it-turns-into-a-battleLet me know what you think of this!Support the show_____________________________________________________You don't have to do this alone.Try Creating Confidence free for 7 days.Whether you prefer daily encouragement or a supportive community with live coaching, you can explore it all and see what fits your family best.Choose the level of support that fits you best—from daily encouragement to live coaching and community.Come spend a week with us!Creating Confidence OptionsUNSCHOOLING 101 CourseMath WITHOUT Curriculum CourseUnschooling Transcript CourseSeasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resourceswww.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

As we're approaching the end of our academic year, Mirabelle's been doing an in-depth geography and art study of the Pacific Islands - including some tasty recipes! Meanwhile Eden's reflecting on the taster day she recently attended for her next steps starting A-Levels in the autumn.

What if fear is influencing more of your homeschooling decisions than you realize?When we're anxious about our children's future, it's easy to mistake fear for wisdom and urgency for insight.In this episode, Sue Patterson explores how fear can cloud our judgment, shape our homeschooling decisions, and make it difficult to separate what we're actually observing from what we're afraid might happen.If you've ever wondered whether you're responding to your child—or to your fear—this episode is for you.Need help sorting through your specific situation? Throughout June, Sue's 30-minute coaching calls are half price. Sometimes a conversation can help you separate what's actually happening from what fear is telling you might happen.http://www.suepatterson.as.me/june-special________________________________Read the transcript here:https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/making-homeschooling-decisions-out-of-fearLet me know what you think of this!Support the show_____________________________________________________You don't have to do this alone.Try Creating Confidence free for 7 days.Whether you prefer daily encouragement or a supportive community with live coaching, you can explore it all and see what fits your family best.Choose the level of support that fits you best—from daily encouragement to live coaching and community.Come spend a week with us!Creating Confidence OptionsUNSCHOOLING 101 CourseMath WITHOUT Curriculum CourseUnschooling Transcript CourseSeasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resourceswww.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

Two former public school teachers — and twin sisters — pull back the curtain on what really happens in a classroom of 25+ kids, including the one statistic that will change how you think about homeschooling forever. Kathy and Melissa share why they left teaching to homeschool their own children, why neither of them ever finished a curriculum in 30 years in the classroom, and how they turned the science of reading into a play-based system any parent can teach — no degree required. We cover special needs reading struggles, when to pull kids out (and when to put them back in), navigating SEL and gender ideology creeping into public schools, and how much one-on-one time actually moves the needle for your child's confidence and learning. Plus: practical tips for making phonics drills fun instead of painful. If you're second-guessing whether you're "enough" to homeschool your kids, this conversation will put that fear to rest.Find Kathy & Melissa:www.littleshoesacademy.comOur facebook group is https://www.facebook.com/groups/685911939807596Our instagram is https://www.instagram.com/littleshoesacademy/ Resources from Cheryl:

Text Sue what you think!They're playing all the time - is there anything worthwhile that we can count for homeschooling transcript? The answer may surprise you. In this episode, Sue Patterson explores how gaming can support learning in subjects like history, science, math, philosophy, leadership, and communication—and shares real examples of how those experiences can be documented on a transcript.Many parents worry that gaming is "just entertainment," especially when their teen spends hours immersed in Minecraft, Civilization, Kerbal Space Program, Factorio, Discord communities, or competitive gaming. But when you look beyond the label and focus on what a student is actually learning, a very different picture begins to emerge.In this episode, you'll discover:• How to identify academic learning hidden inside gaming interests• Real examples of transcript-worthy subjects connected to video games• Why philosophy, ethics, history, science, and math often show up through gaming• How leadership and communication skills develop in online communities• Why "video games" isn't a course title—but can lead to many legitimate high school credits• Tips for translating interest-led learning into transcript languageWhether you're homeschooling, unschooling, or creating a non-traditional high school transcript, this episode will help you recognize learning that may already be happening right in front of you.UNSCHOOLING RESOURCES MENTIONED:Unschooling Transcript Coursehttps://suepatterson-unschooling.thinkific.com/courses/unschooling-transcriptsCreating Confidence Daily APP - Talking about Technology this month!https://cc.unschoolingmom2mom.com/checkout/creating-confidence-dailyCreating Confidence COMMUNITY - Full Support for the journey!https://cc.unschoolingmom2mom.com/checkout/creating-confidence-membership-2If you've ever wondered how to document gaming, screen time, or interest-led learning on a high school transcript, this episode is for you.Support the show_____________________________________________________As always, reach out if you need more help.  You don't have to do this alone!Creating Confidence DAILY - the Unschooling App you need!Start Free Trial Today!Creating Confidence Membership Group  UNSCHOOLING 101 CourseMath WITHOUT Curriculum CourseUnschooling Transcript CourseSeasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resourceswww.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

It's a big moment as Eden reflects on finishing her GCSEs, marking a time of transition in the family. Mirabelle's discussing her Pacific Islands study and a fun trip to Southport, and Asher's discussing a fantastic trip to the UK Games Expo.

Rapkat was born in northwest China, fled to Malaysia at five, landed in Brooklyn, bounced through public, private, and charter school, married at seventeen, attended a coding bootcamp, got a remote software engineering job — and has been homeschooling and world schooling his five kids across Europe and Asia ever since.In this episode we talk about why he thinks getting straight A's is actually not a good sign, what "learning to learn" means and why it matters more than any subject, how he intentionally teaches his kids to let go of possessions every time they move, and why he believes seventy percent of your kid's school day is completely invisible to you as a parent.We also get into AI, the real cost of using it, and what he says most people get completely wrong about it.If you've ever wondered what education looks like when you strip away every assumption — this one will stay with you.Resources from Cheryl:

Text Sue what you think!Are you wondering whether it's time to make a change in your child's education?Many parents spend the whole summer questioning what's working, what's not, and whether a different approach to learning might be a better fit for their family. Some are considering leaving the school system. Others are rethinking traditional homeschooling. Still others are exploring unschooling for the first time.They aren't just looking for answers about academics, motivation, socialization, or learning gaps. They're trying to decide what comes next—and what they need to know before making a change.In this episode of Unschooling Mom2Mom, Sue Patterson explores the questions parents often ask when considering homeschooling, unschooling, or a more individualized approach to learning, and shares how coaching can help families move forward with greater clarity and confidence.You'll hear stories from parents who:• Had a teen who seemed interested only in gaming• Felt like their child didn't fit the traditional homeschooling mold• Were curious about unschooling but afraid to make the leap• Needed reassurance that they weren't ruining their children• Wanted a clearer path forward before the new school year beganWhether you're new to homeschooling, curious about unschooling, transitioning away from curriculum, or simply looking for reassurance, this episode will help you approach the new school year with more confidence and less stress.Special Resource mentioned:• 1:1 Coaching Calls (50% off during June)Support the show_____________________________________________________As always, reach out if you need more help.  You don't have to do this alone!Creating Confidence DAILY - the Unschooling App you need!Start Free Trial Today!Creating Confidence Membership Group  UNSCHOOLING 101 CourseMath WITHOUT Curriculum CourseUnschooling Transcript CourseSeasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resourceswww.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

What if the most radical thing you could do for your child's future is to take them out of school, or even out of the education system entirely?Want to learn more about Regenerative Education?You may contact Radonda Dobbins directly for consultation on how to move forward. Connect with Radonda Dobbinshttps://radondadobbins.com/----In this episode, Yoshi Pantera sits down with Radonda Dobbins - certified intuitive life coach, trauma-informed NLP and anxiety specialist, and one of Central Florida's most dedicated advocates for children, families, and alternative education. With decades of experience in child welfare, legislative advocacy, and community building, Radonda founded the Home Educators Network of Central Florida in 2005, growing it to over 900 families. She is a member of the Institute of Noetic Sciences and sits on the board of Back to Nature Wildlife Refuge.Together, they explore what regenerative education truly means - and why the conventional school system, designed to produce industrial workers, is no longer serving the full spectrum of human potential.In this conversation:* The full landscape of education alternatives - homeschooling, unschooling, hybrid learning, co-ops, Waldorf, Montessori, democratic schools, and umbrella schools.* Why colleges actually prefer homeschooled students - and how Radonda's daughter earned a full scholarship to a $60,000/year conservatory* The socialization myth - and why homeschoolers may actually be better prepared for real-world diversity.* How to legally pull your child out of school (it's simpler than you think)* The connection between nutrition, health, and learning capacity - and why school cafeteria food is part of the problem* Cooking as curriculum: math, science, and culture all happening in your kitchen* The 3 steps to begin your family's alternative education journey right now* Why it takes a village - and how to build one even if you're a working single parent* Radonda shares the story of her own daughter, who grew up entirely homeschooled, followed her passion for music, and now runs her own music school working with special needs children - all before 25. A living proof of what becomes possible when a child is allowed to be right.This episode is an invitation - to question the systems we were raised in, to trust ourselves as our children's primary teachers, and to build the kinds of communities where the next generation can truly flourish.3 Steps to Begin Your Regenerative Education Journey:* Ask your children what they are curious about and passionate about* Research what format works for your family - homeschool, co-op, private alternative, or hybrid* Do it. You don't need to have it all figured out. Start.Join our Regenerative Leadership Community and continue this conversation:Learn more and explore all our offerings: www.regenerativeculture.lifeSubscribe to our Regenerative Newsletter https://regenerativeculture.life/regenerative-newsletterRead the Regenerative Culture Chronicle on Substack: https://regenerativecultureworld.subs...Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/regenerativeculture.life/”Regenerating all life through culture…”#regenerativeculture #regenerativeeducation #unschooling #culture #regeneration #newhumanity #minset #education Get full access to Regenerative Culture Chronicle at regenerativecultureworld.substack.com/subscribe

This time round Mirabelle's been enjoying Horrible histories and trips to Blists Hill and Birmingham Thinktank. Plus she's been observing the house sparrows and making ice cream for the dogs during the heatwave! Eden's midway through her GCSEs and sharing how the hunt is going for a summer job. Asher's discussing his new swimming routine, and we're all reflecting on the Mandalorian movie!

Text Sue what you think!Are we preparing kids for adulthood… or preparing them for school expectations?Parents worry about grades, gaps, transcripts, screen time, and whether their kids will be successful adults. But real adult life often depends on something else entirely: adaptability, communication, confidence, initiative, emotional regulation, and problem solving.In this episode, Sue Patterson explores how real-life experiences, play, curiosity, gaming, technology, and pursuing interests can help kids develop the skills they actually need for adulthood.Also: why school expectations still shape our fears  how unschooling builds real-world problem-solving skills  the difference between memorizing information and learning how to navigate life  reducing power struggles around technology  helping parents feel more confident taking an unconventional path If you've ever wondered whether unschooling truly prepares kids for adult life, this episode will help you rethink what “life prep” really means. → Creating Confidence Community and Daily Confidence App: https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/creating-confidence-sign-up → Read transcript at the bloghttps://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/the-life-prep-unschooling-homeschooling-kids-really-need Support the show_____________________________________________________As always, reach out if you need more help.  You don't have to do this alone!Creating Confidence DAILY - the Unschooling App you need!Start Free Trial Today!Creating Confidence Membership Group  UNSCHOOLING 101 CourseMath WITHOUT Curriculum CourseUnschooling Transcript CourseSeasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resourceswww.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

In this episode Mirabelle's talking about experiments about friction, planting seeds, her summer reading challenge and her trip to Slimbridge wetlands centre. Meanwhile Asher's talking about his new swimming club, Lego and Minecraft. And Eden's giving last minute tips as she's about to start sitting her final batch of GCSEs.

Text Sue what you think!Mother's Day can be a lot of things — wonderful, disappointing, emotional, or somewhere in between. For unschooling and homeschooling moms, there's an added twist: your kids aren't sitting in a classroom getting reminded to make something for you. No teacher. No craft. No school newsletter nudging dad to pick up flowers.So this year? You become the Mother's Day Fairy.

Text Sue what you think!What does an unschooling day actually look like?If you've been searching for a routine, a schedule, or some kind of structure you can follow… and keep coming up empty, this episode will give you something more useful.Instead of a rigid plan, we're walking through real-life examples of unschooling days—what it looks like for younger kids, older kids, and teens—and why it can feel so unstructured (even when learning is happening all day long).Inside this episode:What unschooling looks like in real life (by age)Why “structure” feels missing at firstHow learning shows up without curriculumWhat's actually happening during gaming, YouTube, and downtimeHow to recognize patterns, rhythms, and progressThis is the shift most parents need: From trying to create structure… to learning how to see it.If your days feel open-ended, uncertain, or like you're “not doing enough,” this will help you reframe what's really going on.

What happens when life completely falls apart — and you still have to show up for your kids? This week Cheryl sits down with Barbara, a former special education teacher turned homeschool mom of four, who opens up about one of the hardest questions in homeschooling: what do you do when you're grieving?After years of fighting the school system for resources her students deserved, Barbara knew she didn't want that for her own kids. She pulled them out, ditched the rigid curriculum, and built something that actually works for her spicy, high-energy family.In this episode:Why connection over perfection changed everything for her familyHow she homeschools four kids aged 5–12 using interest-led unit studiesWhat homeschooling through the loss of her mother actually looked likeSouth Carolina's homeschool options and fundingWhy socialization was never actually a problemBarbara also shares her memoir and upcoming Bible study guide for homeschooling through grief — because sometimes life takes the rug out from under you, and you still have to be there for your family.Connect with Barbara here:  https://a.co/d/0bMqCMiqBarbara's Instagram

Text Sue what you think!What does unschooling look like day to day—and how do you know it's enough?This is where most parents start to second-guess everything.If you've ever lwondered, “Is this enough?”—you're not alone.We're unpacking one of the most common fears in unschooling:What learning actually looks like when it doesn't look like school.With no worksheets, no visible lessons, and no clear benchmarks… it can feel like nothing is happening. But that's not what's going on.We'll talk about: Why unschooling feels “too unstructured”  Where that pressure to do more comes from  What learning actually looks like in everyday real life  Why confidence comes and goes—and how to handle that If you've been second-guessing your choices or worried your child is falling behind, let's reframe what you're seeing—and what really counts.

Ever wondered about the transformative power of free play in a child's life? Prepare for a fascinating conversation with Dr. Peter Gray, an evolutionary psychologist and child development expert, as we journey through his research on self-directed learning and the crucial role of play in development and learning. Drawing from his personal experiences and groundbreaking research, Dr. Gray offers insights into the Sudbury Valley School's self-directed learning model and its potential to shape fulfilling lives. We dig deep into how self-directed education morphs the lines between work and play, and its ripple effects on children's lives. The conversation gets crucial as we navigate the alarming ascendance of ADHD and the use of medication. Dr. Gray underscores the importance of play in counterbalancing these concerns and the potential long-term effects of these drugs. Shifting gears, we probe into the decline of play and children's freedom since the 1950s and the societal factors contributing to this disconcerting trend. Bracing ourselves, we venture into the intimidating process of unschooling. Based on a study, we tackle how parents can conquer their fears and the scrutiny of others by finding a supportive community of like-minded individuals. As we wrap up, Dr. Gray leaves us with an inspiring message about the transformative power of free play in children's lives, reminding parents of the significant role they play. This episode is not just a conversation, it's a paradigm shift in understanding learning and play. Tune in and witness this shift. TED Talks with Dr. Peter Gray: The Decline of Play How Our Schools Thwart Passions Substack for Peter Gray Books by Dr. Gray: Free to Learn Mother Nature's Pedagogy: Biological Foundations for Children's Self-Directed Education How Children Acquire "Academic" Skills Without Formal Instruction Evidence that Self-Directed Education Works The Harm of Coercive Schooling SCHOOL TO HOMESCHOOL RESOURCES:  Janae's Links for Vintage Books Sign Up for the School to Homeschool Newsletter School to Homeschool YouTube Channel CONNECT WITH US! Instagram Facebook janae@schooltohomeschool.com

In this episode Mirabelle is reflecting on her recent role in a performance of Alice in Wonderland, as well as her new science club, experiments exploring friction, and her latest cold war topic.  Meanwhile Asher's building a new chicken run, cooking fajitas and sharing about a couple of junior parkrun milestones he's reached!

We're back with another On the Journey episode! We had a rich conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Lucia Silva. Lucia was previously on the podcast in episode 251, Unschooling as a Lifestyle. She is an unschooling mom of two and she came back to share some updates about her unschooling journey. We talked about trusting our children’s learning journeys, Lucia’s inner growth and mindset shifts, as well as her experience in the Living Joyfully Network and how the community has supported her over the years. It was a really beautiful discussion and we hope you find it helpful! THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid discussions about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Come and be part of the conversation! Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. EU251: Unschooling as a Lifestyle with Lucia Silva Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook. Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling. So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn't actually about unschooling. It's about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ERIKA: Hello, everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia, as well as our guest today, Lucia Silva. Hello to you all! PAM, ANNA, AND LUCIA: Hello! ERIKA: Before we begin our conversation with Lucia, I wanted to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, which has really been life changing for me in so many ways. On the Network, we have such great discussions about so many topics. Our community has such a wide variety of experiences, and everyone’s really interested in learning and growing and being intentional with their families. It’s really unlike any other online community I’ve found. Being part of the Network offers powerful support, especially during those moments when fears pop up or if you’re new to unschooling and just need a place where people understand what you’re going through. If you’d like to learn more about the Network and check it out for yourself, you can visit livingjoyfully.ca and click on Network at the top of the page. And we’ll also leave a link for that in the show notes. We would love to meet you. So I’m very excited that we get to talk to Lucia today. I met Lucia on the Living Joyfully Network and have just loved getting to know her over the years. And she was also on the podcast back in episode 251 and shared her journey to unschooling in that episode. I encourage everyone to check that out as well. And we’re excited to dive in for an update five and a half years later, which is wild. So Lucia, we would love to hear what everyone is interested in right now. LUCIA: Five and a half years later sounds like, in the scope of kid time, it’s so long. It’s so long. And then thinking, how long have you been unschooling? Five and a half years still seems really new. So, it’s interesting to think about those elastic times. And it was fun to see how some things are just so similar. I’m sure you guys see that with your kids. But, wow, I can connect where they’re into the exact same thing. So there’s four of us. It’s me and my husband, Micah, and my two kids. They’re older now. To respect their privacy, I’m not going to be using their names. And I’ll just refer to them with neutral pronouns. They said I could talk about them in general. My oldest child is still really into ballet. And that’s their primary passion. And that has remained strong, grown, changed a little bit. It’s not what they want to do professionally, but it is just a primary part of their lives. They’re also still really into reading and drawing and making. They have a great friend group. And they do lots of fun stuff. I just dropped them off at the botanical gardens to hang out with friends this morning. And let’s see, there was one other thing I wanted to mention. I lost my train of thought. My younger child, back when I originally did the podcast, they were really into building and constructing items out of stuff. And I had not really forgotten, even though we still have a lot of that preserved in the garage. But they’re really into building tabletop games, mostly card games. They’re constantly inventing new games. We’ve brought a lot of them to the table, done a lot of design. We’ve taken them to little fairs and sold lots of them. And we have game tournaments. They’re kind of based around the Wings of Fire lore, because that’s what their friends were into when they started it. It’s turned into this thing where they have this whole group of friends that are waiting for the next booster pack to come out. But it’s kind of amazing to see connections, from that fascination with construction, like moving pieces, how they fit together. And now it’s, Mom, I have a new game. And it’s this whole fully formed game mechanics and point values. Now it’s branching out to some things that aren’t just trading card games. They’re thinking about what would be a good family game? But mostly card games. So they’re really into that. They’ve gotten really into fencing and chess, which I think are both similar sort of mental games. And they love talking with Micah about probability problems and stuff like that. They’re also really into philosophy and philosophical debate, or debating anything. So that’s that. And I think when we last spoke, Micah, my husband, was a professor at UGA, and he’s now moved into tech. And along that whole journey, so much of what we’ve gone through in our unschooling journey, I’m putting that in air quotes, because it just sort of becomes your entire sort of life philosophy, unschooling. But that has really been so meaningful for him on his journey of just learning the way his mind works, what his interests are, stuff like that. So he’s still in the research, data field, has gotten really into improv and musical improv with a little group here, and plays music all the time. And I am, I think, still doing a lot of the same things. I like to sew, and I’m reading, and I love following little rabbit trails and researching anything and dabbling about here and there. ANNA: So fun. All the things, but how they all weave together, right? You can just picture the household and the weaving together of all the things. ERIKA: I love connecting it back to the old conversation and seeing how that tracks, because we always talk about that, looking back and seeing how those threads connect together. And it just also makes me think, oh my gosh, kids are all so different, the things that they love and are interested in. You can’t predict it. And it's just so interesting. PAM: Yeah, I loved hearing the piece of looking back and now seeing how that is weaving into the things they’re interested in right now, because they can seem very different. Yet, when you look back, you can see the thread that underlies the various things together over time. And that is so interesting, just as a piece of knowledge, just a little bit more understanding about who they are, right? I think that is super cool. Did you want to say something? LUCIA: Oh, just as you were saying that I realized that along the way, I feel like that’s given me, it’s a really important reflection to have when they get interested in something that maybe I’m unsure about, like video games, for example, and thinking, what is happening with all this time? And it’s so easy to see what’s underneath for them. How does this work? How do the team dynamics work? How do I analyze these moves? It doesn’t mean that if you’re not doing that, it’s not important, but there’s always something going on underneath an interest unless they’re not being attended to, right? But if it’s intentional, just like we’re intentional. And seeing that there is that through line and that intention under it. Oh, and then sorry, one other thing about my oldest kiddo, who’s really into working with kids these days. They’re interning at a Waldorf school and they’ve been babysitting a lot too, which is a job, and they assist in the little kids’ classes at our co-op. There’s something underneath it that’s more like a passion rather than just like, oh, I go babysitting. Looking at the intention they bring to that and how respectful they are of the children, their privacy, what they’re going through and what reverence they have for that job. I mean, there’s all kinds of ways to have a job, but also to look at that as we are spending a lot of time doing that because I’m seeing that it is something that is really important to them to do rather than, oh, they’re working or they’re working without getting paid. PAM: All the different stories we can tell ourselves, right? But when we take that moment to actually dive a little bit deeper, so often we can see those threads. We can see the intentionality rather than the surface story that just, oh, I’m taking them to their job. They’re doing this thing. I don’t quite know why they’re not getting paid. Whatever lenses that kind of automatically bubble up, if we take a minute to just dig a little bit deeper and see what else comes up alongside it, it is really exciting. And it helps, as I think back, just helps with the mechanics too. Like I don’t mind driving them to X, Y, Z because I know the impact and what they’re getting out of it. I’m not just a chauffeur or something like that. If I take that as the superficial story of what’s happening, but no, I’m fundamentally supporting their pursuit of something that they are intentionally interested in. Who knows where it will go? We’ve talked a lot about how you really can’t predict it because we can guess but it’s really only looking back where we can see those threads and the connections and go, oh my gosh, I am so glad that I supported and helped with that along the way. ANNA: I just want to say I feel like this is a core piece of unschooling for me, this valuing the experience and the exploration and facilitating that. But it’s hard because it doesn’t necessarily have a product at the end, or it doesn’t necessarily even have a photo op or whatever the thing might be that grounds it in our culture. But gosh, it’s such a big part of it. And when you can take this time to look back, you do see those threads and you do see that growth. And again, it may be that they end up doing something with children, but maybe they’re just building a wealth of information and connection and relationship pieces that’ll be used in some other way. So yeah, just love that. ERIKA: It’s trusting, trusting that they know, right? They know the thing that’s interesting now, and that’s going to lead to something. And I feel like it can be hard because we are always seeing through our own lenses. That’s the part that can be challenging about that for me. I think, but it doesn’t make sense. Or why would you want to spend your time doing that? Or little judgmental feelings can come up just based on what it would be for me, like that interest doesn’t make sense to me. I think if we can drop that part, drop the judgment and just trust that they know themselves and this is going to lead to whatever it needs to lead to for them. I really love them. LUCIA: And it is so hard for people, they really want to attach it to something. Are they going to be a professional dancer? Are they going to go into child development? I’m like, I don’t know. Are you going to become a historian because you learned about the battle of the bulge. I get it. I think they want to know that everything’s okay. I understand it, but it’s important, or it’s been important for me to make my little energetic bubble and go like, yeah, is that cool? No, they don’t want to be a professional dancer because of XYZ or whatever. Then their face falls, oh, but they dance for 12 hours a week. Yes, that’s pretty awesome. That’s still great. It’s very, it’s just interesting when you get so steeped in this, to have to pull yourself out and see through those eyes, right? Remembering, that’s where they are. And I get it. And I’m going to figure out how to talk to you about this in a way that doesn’t make you so worried. PAM: Yes, I would want them to not be worried. Although I have no control over that. I got those questions so many times, especially as your kids get older, right? People start, well, then what are they going to be? Et cetera. And I got to a point where I just loved answering those with, “I don’t know, maybe.” They look at you like, don’t you know your child? LUCIA: Don’t you care? Well, especially as they get older, right? When they’re seven, that’s fine for everybody. When they’re 15 going on 16 and everybody’s talking about college and what are you going to do? And they look at you like, do you not care? Are you going to abandon them? And they’re starting to feel that, not pressure to do, but pressure to answer. Luckily we don’t get that from our family. So, I’d like to care a little bit less, but we’ll encounter adults who are like, what are you going to major in? Oh, are you going to this? Are you going to that? What do I say? It’s like, well, here are the options. We can prepare a little, you can just be out there with it. ERIKA: It depends on how humorous you want to be. You have lots of options. PAM: Oh my goodness. So I wanted to pull back something that you mentioned a little bit earlier and we’ll tie it in with the first interview we did. Episode 251. I do recommend everyone go back there and check out because you talked a lot about your journey to unschooling there. The theme and the title of the episode was unschooling as a lifestyle. And like you said earlier, it just becomes the way you live. So I was curious as you look back, how has your journey evolved so far? Because we know it will continue. And what things have helped you along the way? LUCIA: Well, I did read the transcript of that episode again. I had a vague idea. And it was so interesting to me to see both how I was at the beginning and how I was already like two feet in, here’s what we’re doing. And a lot of the sort of philosophy for lack of a better word, or like the ideas now are just, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I know then that my yes was a different kind of yes. It just had a different feel and I was really eager and trying hard. And now a lot of those things just feel like, Oh wow. I can’t believe I was worried about that. That was my primary focus. I totally remember feeling that way. And I was thinking of Pam’s unschooling journey. Also, that was the first book that I read. That’s what it’s called, right? The Unschooling Journey. PAM: Yes. LUCIA: And thinking about the Network as this constant companion and knowing that the unschooling journey is based around this idea of the hero’s journey as the journey into and through unschooling. And I’m thinking about how many times we do that journey in this spiral, right? This big sort of macro journey of we won’t do that and we won’t do this and let go of that. And we’re okay with this and then you go the next layer in and in and in, and now we’re sort of on this really micro journey where sort of everything spins around more quickly. I enter an unfamiliar situation or way of thinking, or how do I feel about this that my kid wants to do? How do I feel about this and do a little whole circle of a journey with that. And I realized that for me, and I think for a lot of us who are part of the Network, that it’s a mix of a companion, a champion, an oracle, like all of the things that those mystical mythical heroes come upon that reveal some little truth, here’s a little encouragement, here’s your magic potion to keep you going. But, for me, symbolically, there is no way, I guess I won’t say there’s no way I could have done it without the Network. But I know that my life is just totally different because of it. I know that every relationship I have is totally different because of it. I know that our family is totally different because of it. And it’s funny, because I never get to talk about the Network. I think all the people outside my life know that I’m part of this unschooling network. They know it's this online thing, and I have to go to a Zoom all the time. People will ask, why do you have all these Zoom meetings? Do you have a job? I’m like, no, no, I have, it’s a very important meeting I have to go to. Because there are all these layers to it. When we started, I approached it the same way I approached listening to the podcast as like, I was in mentorship mode. And I still am in a different way. I remember, every week, as soon as the talk came out, I would listen to it. And then Micah and I would sit together on the couch at night, and I’d either play certain parts, we’d listen to the whole thing. We were steeping in this lecture series, and then we’d talk about it. And I’d make notes and have these things I wanted to keep top of mind that week. And I could feel that transformation of ideas come loose in me and be like, okay, these are ideas I want to steep in. But then, I think I was maybe a little hesitant sometimes to post in the network, but I realized so quickly how much I learned from reading other people sharing it, everybody commenting and realizing this is unlike any other place that I’ve been. And in the same way that unschooling is unlike any other place that I’ve been. If you think of this as the ultimate community for that based on intentionality, and not based on this set of rules and ideals. Which is so funny that a lot of the homeschooling and unschooling communities online turn into exactly that. Because I think people look for advice. And there’s always one person who wants to be the expert. And that person ends up being the quote, unquote, expert and having the rules and you’re either in or you’re outside of that. And what I love seeing, even now, when somebody new comes into the Network, I learned so much from reading their new posts and the new things they’re wondering about. And I learned so much from people who are dealing with things that could seem totally irrelevant to me and my family. You learn so quickly how to read into the core of that relevance, how to offer support from your own experience to receive support from that shared experience. And the ability to share those things and be in a space that is really without judgment, which is so weird. Especially when you’re dealing with something that feels like a high principle, or just high intentionality. Most of those spaces, and I’ve been in a lot that have to do with unschooling, but also that have to do with health or lots of other things, and it can feel like there’s this sort of untouchable expert at the center, or this untouchable idea, and we’re all sort of at the feet of that. And feeling like we have this communal place, or real community, but also there’s this strong architecture that makes it so that anybody who walks into that space knows, gets the vibe. You can read the room really quickly, what’s going to be allowed here and not allowed here. There’s just not any bad behavior. So it feels really safe in those ways. But now it just lives in my head, all three of your voices live in my head, other people’s voices live in my head, phrases that people have said that I’ve written on a Post-it and stuck on my wall. So that sometimes throughout my day, like, I’ll be like, oh, okay, I’m feeling uncertain about this. I got to post in the Network. But I can write the whole post and all the answers before I even do it. I realized that’s why I’m maybe posting less, and I think I should just do this anyway, because it was so helpful for me then. And I love knowing that there are people in there who have been in there since I was there, whose kids are much older, and who aren’t visibly active so much. But just the other day, I posted something that was kind of a tender post. And immediately someone who had been in the group since I joined, who I wasn’t even sure was part of the group anymore, because I didn’t see them, but I thought about them as we’ve had some dialogue, and they just messaged me the loveliest message. Just knowing that there are people for whom this is so important. And just looking at the calls, I get so emotional sometimes when someone is sharing something. And everybody’s giving space, holding space, giving feedback, whatever it is. And I see these 16 tiles of faces. And I think these are parents all around the world, who are dedicating their Saturday morning or afternoon or whatever it is, to talking about their families and their self development as caring people who are stewards of other people in the world. And that just blows me away. I think that in and of itself is so powerful. ANNA: I feel like you captured it in a way that I don’t know that I could, because I think it’s really hard to explain to people. Because we do have those calls every week, we’ve been having them since we started in 2020. And I think of all of those weeks that we’ve had calls. And that’s the piece too, that this web of people all over the world, bringing such intention and there isn’t one path. And you know that we don’t ever talk about there’s one right way or one way to be. But gosh, have I learned so much from just seeing other people navigating all the different pieces in their life. And again, it may be a relationship issue, and maybe I’m not having that problem in my relationship, but just steeping in that intentionality and growth mindset is so powerful for me individually, and then just the collective of it is incredible. But yeah, I just am so grateful for you being there. And you really have seen it from the beginning and how it’s grown and what it looks like. I just really appreciated that and got very emotional, because it is, it’s so powerful. LUCIA: Yeah, and the growth mindset part of it. I think maybe you get lucky to meet a few people along the way in your real life who are invested in that. And I feel so lucky to have that in my partner, Micah, that’s where we are too, that is so important and central. And some people do have that with friends, but to be in a community of people where that’s their focus. And I think it’s maybe the kind of community that some other people may find in a totally different way in, like a church or something. I always wanted that type of community without any of the one right way, or the dogma piece. Even with the most wonderful ones, there’s a book we’re going to go back to, or there’s a principle we’re going to go back to. Well, our principles are there’s no one right way. Everybody’s different. These expansive ideas. Some people are nervous to come on the calls. At first, I know that I was, sometimes I'm even nervous now. But it’s hard to describe what it feels like once you’re there. It doesn’t feel like how I imagined, how can you create a warm, kind of magical community online on Zoom? I don’t know how it happened. But I think it’s just exactly that. You guys are the stewards of people coming together in this container with this intentionality, and everybody sort of rises to that occasion. And to do that kind of work in my life constantly is absolutely transformational. It’s changed every relationship I have. Really. ERIKA: It speeds up the process for me. I feel like being around people who are constantly kind of reminding me of things that I need to work through or things I want to process. It helps me grow faster. I don’t know if that’s the right word. But that’s what it feels like. I don’t know if I would have gotten to these places. You know? PAM: That’s the word that keeps coming up for me. This whole conversation is intentional, right? It’s like with that intentionality, and just showing up with that openness and curiosity. Okay, we’re going to go open and curious. Showing up with that piece, instead of the dogma, the direction, the measuring against, am I doing it right? Those are the pieces that we work hard to dispel, really, right? Which on one hand feels really good, there’s no rules to follow. And then on the other hand, it’s like, oh, what do I replace that with? What do I do if I don’t have a rule to orient myself towards? But that’s where the openness, the curiosity, and the intentionality come in. It’s the intentionality piece, like you mentioned, Erika, that helps with the moving forward versus feeling stuck. And I understand your hesitation about using the word fast to describe it, but maybe faster. It's the reminder to visit those things. And also the compassion when we don’t have the capacity in the moment, and the space, as you mentioned, just the space, right? Just the open space that’s there for whatever is going on. But I think that brings me back to the book, The Unschooling Journey, because number one, I love that you talked about the commonality of the different roles and people, mentors, and monsters. We talked about that a little while ago in the network, things that seem like maybe they’re getting in your way, but really, maybe they’re bringing messages. And that side is super interesting. And to see when we’re spiraling or using that journey, how we can go more quickly, because we have more experience, and we have more language to help ourselves walk through those pieces, to remember, oh, yeah, this is my intention. This is why I want to do this. And oh, yeah, this is new. Why is this bubbling up now? We’re always talking about that. It’s not that we don’t have challenges in life, we can just notice them a little bit more quickly, and move through them a little bit more quickly, because we gained these tools on what to do, instead of following the one path, right? ANNA: That’s what I was going to say. We talk about that a lot. It’s not like this makes it the panacea, that nothing ever happens. It’s not all rainbow and sunshines. But wow, do I catch myself faster. I reorient faster. I get back to connection faster. I just slow things down to be able to be present with whatever’s happening faster than if I didn’t have that. So I think that’s the piece, because it keeps happening, keeps happening, all these decades later. And there’s such a gift to it. And like you’re saying, I think it is faster, but there’s no end point. And I also appreciated you saying, Lucia, that it’s not always comfortable for people. I think some people come to an environment like the Network, and it isn’t comfortable because the one answer idea feels easier. Like, if you just give me the one answer, I’ll do it. That’s how we were trained in school. Tell me what I’m supposed to do, and I’ll do it. I’ll exceed the expectation. This is a little scarier in some ways, I think. But if you can just get past that fear piece of it, and kind of steep in that container of acceptance and curiosity, it’s so empowering. It just opens up so many possibilities. And I think it really speaks to people when they can get past that piece of, but wait, I don’t want to do it wrong. PAM: I was just going to say, that reminds me of, Pam, don’t lose it. When you mentioned it, Lucia, too, like when questions or challenges and things come up that don’t directly relate to things that are going on in our life, but it is still so useful to think through because it’s the foundational processes, right? It’s the tools that we’re using. How do we apply the tools in this situation and in that situation? And that is just so much more deeply useful because then that’s understanding the tools and how you apply it in different places. It just gives us so much more experience on the breadth of how I might take this tool and apply it to all sorts of different things. I think of when we first come to unschooling and you encounter a challenge and you go and you ask, and you get an answer and you’re like, oh great, that worked great. And then another challenge comes up a few months later. It’s like, oh my gosh, I don’t know what to do. I need to go ask and you ask and you get it, et cetera. If you’re not taking that intentional step to foundationally understand what’s the connection between why these different answers are working for me. I just find for me, I always need to go back and ask somebody because I haven’t learned the foundational stuff, gone underneath all that, where I can now think through something and help myself through it, et cetera. I don’t know if that makes sense. ANNA: Okay, wait, just really quickly. I think this is making me, sorry, this is making me think about why it makes it faster is because, and maybe it’s personality driven too, but I’m experiencing to some extent all of the issues. We have a member that’s gone through like house flooding and having to move and all the things she's navigating. Oh my gosh, I’m thinking of your thing with the fire extinguisher, Lucia. I haven’t gone through those things physically and yet I was able to sit with it, hold the container, process it myself, think about what that would mean. So I think that’s what makes it faster because we only have so many experiences in our life but I don’t need all of those personally to learn more. There’s something interesting about that. ERIKA: Yeah, I learned a lot about fire extinguishers from you, Lucia. I also, I wanted to pull back that other bit that I love that you said about intentional communities are often rule-based. I think that’s so interesting to think about. Maybe other people that we meet that are very focused on growth and intention, they are trying to do things the right way though. And so our intention is totally different because it’s an intention about figuring out how people are different and being open and curious, An intention to be curious about things, which just, it feels very different. LUCIA: Yeah, I mean, I wish it existed. I wish there was a beautiful room I could go to and be next to people and eat cookies and coffee afterwards. It’s like totally that part of it, but I realized it would be great if the world would be different. You reminded me when you were talking about going through all of these things, even if they’re not your experience. I realized that a lot of what I used to do and still kind of do it out of habit, a fear-based habit, when I would hear about someone had this emergency and they were misdiagnosed and it turned out I would catalog, okay, if they have a rash on their palms, they check for Kawasaki disease. I was cataloging these, okay, if my kid’s not talking by this age, I have to demand whatever it was, some fear-based, okay, I’m going to arm myself with this practical knowledge that will fend off any bad eventuality. And as we were talking, I realized that’s what we get, this real sort of other meta prevention, which is like we’re not going to prevent anything bad or practical happening, but what we have, we’re going to go through the same thing with it. If I’m feeling really strong about that, my priority is connection with the people involved, choosing out of love, being open and curious, all of the things that foundationally can feel like safety when so many things feel scary. Whether it’s that your kid’s playing video games or that they have an illness or that there’s a challenge. That there’s a different kind of safety, whereas I have always ascribed safety to rules and following best practices and figuring out the best way. So, this is something I’m still working on, but I like the concept. ANNA: Me too. I do think, because I think our brain can be, you and I are very similar in that, and well, all four of us really, knowing the four of us as I do. I think we all want to, we have that brain that’s cataloging and thinking all the things. But for me, that deep breath into, there’s plenty of time, staying in this moment, being open and curious really is the thing that provides me the most peace and safety, because I think it was so stressful for me when I thought I was preparing for every eventuality, especially in my first pregnancy, and then everything went to hell in a hand basket. It’s like, but wait, I did everything the “right way”, and that got me stuck, right? But I don’t get stuck there anymore, because I know things are going to happen, but what I know is that I can be present, I can have these connections, I can have these relationships, and that we’re going to figure it out. That feels more like real safety to me than what I was kind of chasing when I was younger with trying to do everything perfectly. PAM: I love that. ANNA: Okay, so I want to go to our next question, because I think it’s interesting. Something you’ve talked about on the network and reflected upon on calls is just observations about your kids and their relationship to themselves, and how you’ve seen them evolve as they’ve grown in this environment that you’ve created. How they move through the world, and so are there any little bits that you feel comfortable sharing just about your experience of that. LUCIA: Yeah, I mean, it has been so interesting. This is an area where I can so directly see. Where I’m just practically learning from them, just by observing how someone else can be in the world, and being someone who is shaped totally differently by an experience of looking outside and adhering to outside standards to determine how I feel, when I need rest, what kind of food I’m eating. To see the opposite of that, of people who have such a strong basis in that type of self-knowledge, intuition, self-reflection, and all bolstered by, I don’t want to say extreme, but just actual autonomy of being. And I don’t want to say I've given them autonomy, they’re not being prevented from being autonomous beings who have agency over so many areas of their lives, as much as possible. I believe that’s part of how they’ve developed this. Just watching how to do it. There’s no question, if they need to rest, they’re going to rest at this time, and if they they’re going to eat this kind of food, they’re going to eat this kind of food, and just this really strong conviction of anybody who gets in the way of that. And they’re not rude people, but it’s about people who press back on that, are you really going to eat that? You’ve been in bed all day, etc. They have no tolerance for that type of external judgment, and they have sensitive humor about it. They function pretty well in the world, but things that I’m so uncomfortable with, I feel like this is the big personal project of my life to try and unravel the ideas of, have I done enough work to deserve rest? What should a person of my age, what am I capable of doing in a day? Really having lost total touch with what I actually need to be resourced, and then living with people who are in total touch with what they need. And so, kind of going back to this idea of what are they going to do with their lives or major in, and also what we’ve been talking about as our process is in being open and curious, and all of these principles. That’s what they’re majoring in, right? You can do anything if you’re open and curious, you have a relationship with yourself that is grounded in trust or intuition. People see this, they will say, they’re so amazing, they’re such a pleasure to talk to, they just know who they are, but where are they going to go to college? You just answered your own question, so it’s fine. But really, it’s just a total flip side of priorities of what starts to happen being steeped in something like this is where those priorities come up and change. My oldest child was diagnosed with severe scoliosis a few years ago. A total S curve, and they deemed it surgical immediately. They would need surgery, and just in that room, they were just, I think they were 13 at the time, anyway, and just asked the surgeon questions, like, oh, what would happen if we wait? Do we need to do this now? The doctors started with when is your ballet break? When are we going to schedule the surgery? And then answered well, you should probably do this before you’re 22 or 23. They were like, okay, so let’s wait. What are the other options? I’m using a little more confrontational tone than they did. But they said those things on their own. And then in the car later was said, they put their hands on my back without even asking. And I had to step back from not taking that as like, Oh, I really messed up. That’s my job. But I come from an era where doctors did all kinds of things without asking. A lot of things, especially for a child, but that they would expect having very little experience with that for a doctor to say, Hey, can I touch your back? They’ve received no education about that. That’s just what they mean, well, they have by living in a world of the person who’s respected, autonomous. So, that’s how they walked through that whole journey and ended up doing really intense physical therapy and loved their physical therapist. And it turned into this whole fascination with the body and how the body works and alignment and, learning that they were hyper mobile and reading books about this. And so they have a whole fascination with physical therapy and physiology now. But ended up being deemed by that same doctor a year later, that their curve was corrected by like 14 degrees. And the doctor said, I would not recommend surgery anymore. They have no pain, a total success story for them. But again, there were all kinds of practical and sort of more emotional parts of how that is supported, right? One is being willing to go out on a limb and run a ledge and be the outsider who’s not going to do the surgery, being willing to do that, right? You have to, again, step outside of this sort of echo chamber, everybody’s going, this is what you do, this is what you do, it’s going to be your fault if you don’t do this. And just taking in all of the information, looking at the person in front of you asking all of the questions, getting all the information and going, Yes, let’s try this. And then being 100% willing to drive them to physical therapy four times a week, for a year, and them being willing to do it. And I’m having the time to do that in the middle of the day. And so many times I was more in it, in a practical sense. I think during that year, we didn't have time for a lot of other things. And they were getting older, we were doing just little, and that faltering that you have along the way. Is it enough? And Micah was like, look how much they’ve learned about themselves, their body, their relationship with their body, their relationship with all kinds of things this year, I realized, yes, wow. And seeing now a couple years later, what a big role that had in their life. For some people, that story is different and also meaningful for them. They have a surgery, they have this long recovery, they have limited mobility, there’s an identity in that. And for my kiddo, they got this experience that fit their personality, which was to be in their body, get really in tune with, I mean, as a dancer, that’s how they relate to themselves. So it just expanded this vision for them of what is happening for them in their body, in their role, what it means, and the kind of relationship they can have with their body. I think that really started to solidify for them, a core piece of the way they walk through the world, which I think could feel like an insignificant little side trail for some people. That was the year I had scoliosis and got the surgery or whatever, which is, again, the right path for some. It is not the right path for every 13 year old to do physical therapy every day on their own and in an office for two hours. But that’s what they wanted to do. And there was a lot of support and scaffolding needed. And then a lot of trust to know when they got to a place where they didn’t need to do as much, and I was still in the like, well, have you done this today? Have you done that? And they were like, no, I can feel it. I can feel my alignment, I can feel I’m doing okay. And I realized that they had integrated this into their whole, that’s the way they are, is that they’re constantly sort of being in that spiraling place of alignment in their body. And I got to see it on an x-ray, which we don’t get to see when we’re talking about emotional things, right? There was this kind of parallel for me to get that level of trust with things that are not as evident or not physical around ways they’re thinking about things they want to explore, and to trust that all of that is just as valid, if not more than filling out the transcript, we would have filled out for a ninth grade year. Which is also challenging to come up against. ANNA: It’s so interesting to think about that journey and how when we look at the threads, that piece of who they are with dance, that was there before. And so I think that’s the piece you trusted for them to be in dance six days a week for years, because it was that important to them. And now you see that they’re taking that experience into all these other pieces and all these other realms. And then their ability to be able to say, to know that I can ask my questions, I deserve for somebody to talk to me and answer my questions. That’s just really powerful at 13 years old, and I know they’re both like that in different realms. That they have that experience. And I think that is one of the big things that we touch on. That’s a big difference that I see is, I feel like we were talking about it in the network not too long ago of just this kind of adults as authority or the enemy that we kind of structure it that way in our culture. And I think it’s so different when we can have that collaborative relationship between adults and children. I think everybody’s better off. I feel like that surgeon learned a lot through that experience. And they still may value surgery, because that’s what they do. And they love it. But they learned something. I think having that collaboration just helps everybody involved, no matter what path is chosen. PAM: I just wanted to bring it back, Lucia, I loved your point about how you could see the results on the x-ray. But it’s just beautiful to recognize that you had that moment, and you could see the intentionality that they were bringing to this whole process, and the choices that they were making, and how that was fitting with who they are as a person through their other choices and activities. But to understand, like you said, for other journeys, and emotional ones, just the different kinds of choices that a person, child or adult, makes in their life, that they are perfectly capable of bringing that same level of intentionality to it. So that even if we don’t quite understand why they’re making those choices, we’re going to trust it the same as the one that we could more visually comprehend because of its particular circumstances. But to recognize that they are just so friggin capable of that, of being in the world and of choosing how intentional or how deep they want to go with a particular interest, or choice or, I’ve had enough of that. I don’t want to go any deeper, I don’t want to push any harder. I want to quit. That whole piece that is still with intention, that is a choice that they are making. That is totally there, like you were saying, that authenticity, whatever word one wants to use. I just think that was such a great point. And to recognize the intentionality that they so often bring to things that we can’t see, often we can’t see the impact, again, looking back is easier as well. But yeah, I love that piece. ERIKA: It’s such a beautiful example of that. And I feel like our kids who have grown up with this kind of autonomy and being more in touch with who they are as a different person than we are, I feel like that helps me remember, there’s not one right way. That’s literally what your child told the doctor’s, there’s not one right way, just telling the surgeon, there are going to be other ways to do this, and we’ll figure it out. And I think it’s such a great reminder when my kids do that, because I think I was so schooled. So, you just get to a point where it feels like, oh, when this happens, you do this. And if this and this, this is the right way to do that. And that’s the right way to do this. There’s just a lot of peeling back all those layers of expectations, or just feeling like, what are people gonna think? All of these different judgmental parts that we have. I remembered recently, I asked my youngest, are you interested in traveling? Because in the past, that’s been something that we’ve talked about a lot and really enjoyed as a family. And it seemed like they really liked it too. And the answer was, not right now. And I was like, that is such a great answer that I would not have been able to give at that age. Because it just kind of leaves space to change. I’m not gonna say I’m not a traveler. But right now, I know I’m not in the season where I would enjoy that. And, I’m just like, wow, it just feels like such a more mature response. Your child at the surgeon is a much more mature response than I would have been able to have at that time. I would have been taken over by the authority feeling. So anyway, I think the kids are amazing. ANNA: Yes. Two other things that came to mind about this whole piece, I’m going to try not to lose them. So one is, this is back to the x-ray and being able to see it, but not always being able to see it, whatever the journey for them is. And I think it’s just important to say out loud that we may never see it, we may never see the actual x-ray, right? Sometimes we can look back and we can see the threads. And we can see how that really led into this developmental piece. But sometimes we’ll never see it because we’re different human beings, we’re never going to be inside of them. And I think that can, again, feel scary, or it can feel kind of exciting, to know there is this person on their own journey, and I trust their journey. But that can be tricky. So that stuck out for me. And then the other piece you said about how people recognize, oh, they’re so self aware and easy to talk to. And then where are they going to school? Or what is their next step? It just reminded me, so you know, I work with a lot of adults and couples and I just wish people could understand that piece that you’re talking about. That’s the reason why they’re coming to seek help in their 40s and 50s. And 30s is because they don’t have it. It’s not because they didn’t go to school, or they didn’t have the career, they did all those things that they were supposed to do. But they can’t figure out, who’s who am I? What is my voice? What matters to me? And so for me, these kids that we see, because I mean, we’ve been at this for almost 30 years now, Pam, these kids that we see growing up in this lifestyle and moving on, that is the piece that they have, even through the bumps, and even through the maybe not figuring it out, or tough times, because it’s hard to become an adult and figure out all the things. It’s not that it’s without bumps. But they do have that core sense of who they are, they do have this sense of, yeah, I can ask people for things, I deserve to have that collaboration. It is just such a different feel. Go ahead, Pam. PAM: Yeah, so what bubble, they know who they are. And tying back to what Erika said, they know they can change. Yes, that they aren’t static. I know who I am. And this is static. And now everything that happens around me, I must measure against that vision of myself, and respond that way. No, that they have a sense of who they are, and a sense of how they can change, that that change isn’t bad, or wrong, or that who I was two years ago is now wrong, because I see things differently. LUCIA: Without that, I feel like I was so oriented, like Erika, I was very well schooled in how I was being observed, how I was being interpreted, how I was being identified, and then identified with those identifications. I’m this, I’m that. And so really feeling this pressure to be that and always falling short of that. And then seeing kids who just have no relationship to that. It’s like it doesn’t exist. It’s so weird. And I can feel it. I felt it. It’s so easy to see with the ballet piece, because you’re going to talk about something where you’re just looking at a mirror all day, right? How do you escape that? And it’s not that they’re not aware of the toxicity around ballet and dance. And that’s why they don’t want to do it professionally. But they are an unbelievably gifted dancer, their musicality and technique, combined with the amount of hard work that they want to put into it is astounding. It’s hard to not go, but you could be that, everybody thinks you’re that. If it were me, that’s all I ever wanted was to actually be that good, right? And to realize, oh, wow, that’s what they don’t have, which is why they love it. Why half the days they wake up and they’re like, I love my life. Instead of just what I remember is just the pain of being inadequate. And everybody’s going to experience that no matter what kind of life you grow up in. But that’s not inadequacy is not the central driving force to overcome. It’s amazing to watch. It’s amazing to be around people who are not oriented to an external reflection of who they are, I guess. That’s what I would like to speed up for myself. ERIKA: Well, this has been so much fun. And thank you so much, Lucia, for joining us. We hope everyone enjoyed the conversation and maybe had an aha moment or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy conversations like these, I really do think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It’s such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the different things we encounter in our unschooling lives. So we invite you to check it out and see if it fits with our free month offer. You can find the link in the show notes or you could just go to livingjoyfully.ca and the link is right on the homepage. So thanks for joining us and we’ll see you next time!

Most parents ask, “Can I homeschool if I still need to work?”Laresia and her family didn't just ask that question—they built a life that answers it.In this episode, we talk about what happens when you choose homeschooling before you even become a parent, and how that decision shaped everything—from family connection to raising a child who is already thinking like an entrepreneur.Their 9-year-old son isn't just learning at home… He's writing and publishing books, learning stock trading, and building real-world skills most adults were never taught.We also get into: What homeschooling an only child actually looks like (social life + community)  How Classical Conversations works in real life  Why creativity and imagination often get shut down in traditional school  How they approach raising a child without a fixed path The mindset shift that allows families to “level up” without pressure And if you've ever wondered how families actually make working + homeschooling work… I break down the patterns I've seen from interviewing 200+ families and how you can apply them.If you're thinking about homeschooling—but feel stuck on the how—this episode will open your mind to what's possible.Find Laresia & Family: https://kidpreneurconnection.com/- https://www.youtube.com/@areeson2love- https://corelife365.com/

Text Sue what you think!How do unschoolers learn math without a curriculum?Can kids really learn math without school—and how do you know it's enough?Here's a real “day in the life” of an unschooling teen. See exactly where math shows up—hour by hour—without worksheets, textbooks, or formal lessons.If you've been wondering: how do kids learn math without curriculum  is real life math enough  am I doing enough math in our homeschool  what about unschooling math gaps …you'll get a clear, practical look at how math naturally develops through everyday life.Real life Math examples like:Mental math, estimation, math in daily routines Math in video games  Cooking, shopping, and budgeting  Sports, timing, decision-making  Problem-solving,  estimation But here's the struggle you'll recognize—Noticing is Step 1 - Seeing it in YOUR kids's lives is the Next Level.We talk about why so many parents feel confident after seeing examples like this… and then fall back into doubt—and what actually helps build long-term confidence with unschooling math.If you're transitioning from homeschool curriculum, questioning traditional math approaches, or trying to trust unschooling, this episode will help you start recognizing what's already happening—and understand what comes next.

Unschooling gets talked about like it's one thing, but in reality, it's a whole spectrum. In this episode, we're digging into what unschooling actually looks like across that range, from fully hands-off to intentionally supported, and everything in between. We talk about the balance between freedom and support, why exposure and access matter more than people realize, and how unschooling can be incredibly powerful - especially for neurodivergent kids - when it's done thoughtfully. This isn't a “you're doing it wrong” conversation. It's a real one. Because the goal isn't perfection or judgment.  It's understanding what actually helps kids thrive.As promised in the episode, here's an excerpt from the book co-written by Meagan and her daughter Astrid. https://bit.ly/UnschoolingExcerpt We'd love to invite you to join our book club.  Reading books among community matters so much. Homeschooling can feel isolating, but processing complex topics alongside like-minded people helps fill your cup, sharpen your thinking, and remind you that you're not navigating this alone. Our next book club selection is How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk.  Click here to learn more: ⁠https://bit.ly/HMUPatreon⁠  Use code BOOKWORM for 90% of your first month!  Would you like personalized coaching from Meagan or Amanda (or both)???? We offer consultation services. Feel free to take a look at our respective bios and book a time that is convenient for you.⁠https://calendly.com/homeschoolmomsunfiltered⁠ Jumpstart your homeschooling with our online courses:Homeschool 101: The No-Panic Boot Camp - https://bit.ly/homeschool101support And, purchase the workbook here:  https://a.co/d/fehPA6G The Smart Start Guide to Homeschool Curriculum - https://bit.ly/curriculumhelpme And purchase the workbook here:  https://a.co/d/07MZXbn6 Preschool and Kindergarten, Reimagine: A Complete Guide for Homeschooling Littles  - https://bit.ly/earlyed1 Find Meagan's books here: 101 Comebacks to Homeschool Objections: Polite replies, powerful comebacks, and everything in between - https://a.co/d/iTRH14Y Unschooling From Both Sides of the Story - https://a.co/d/02HMo6pN Explore Outschool!  Use code BUDGET50 to save 50% off your first three months of membership.https://outschool.com/ Every month we release a themed unit study that is secular and progressive.  We focus on own-voice sources and inclusive learning opportunities.  ⁠https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/store/homeschool-moms-unfiltered⁠ Visit our website here:  ⁠https://homeschoolmomsunfiltered.com/⁠ Let's be friends!!! Follow us on social media for giveaways and updates!!IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/homeschoolmomsunfiltered/⁠ FB: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/homeschoolmomsunfiltered⁠ Love Homeschool Moms Unfiltered and want to show your support? ⁠https://www.buymeacoffee.com/homeschoolmomsunfiltered⁠ 

Are you ready to rethink everything you know about education? Join Jae as she sits down with Erica Davis Petrie to explore the transformative world of radical unschooling and game-based learning. This conversation challenges traditional ideas of compliance and conformity, offering a fresh perspective on how to raise self-determined, lifelong learners.In this episode of the Homeschool Yo Kids podcast, Erica shares her extensive experience as a leader in the homeschool community and the coordinator of Game School Con. We dive deep into why unschooling is a powerful tool for liberation, especially within the Black community, and how shifting from a path to a journey can change your family dynamic forever.From heart-wrenching stories of navigating the public school system to the joy of seeing children learn to read through trading cards, this episode is packed with wisdom for every parent. Erica explains the importance of being a partner in your child's education rather than an overseer, and how to use the power of yes and no with intention.

This time round we're sharing the various activities we've been up to over the Easter holidays including a visit to the Staffordshire Regiment Museum, Cadbury World, cloud-watching at Birmingham Botanical Gardens, seeing the Magic Faraway Tree at the cinema, an all-you-can-eat pizza buffet and making Warhammer's miniature of the month. Plus Eden and Mirabelle give the lowdown on their dress rehearsals for their upcoming shows, and Asher's doing an audit.

In this episode, I am talking with Sue Patterson, who lives in Austin Texas. Sue is an unschooling coach, author, and the founder and voice behind Unschooling Mom2Mom. Sue has three adult children, who are now in their thirties, and who were all unschooled. Sue tells of how she came to unschooling when her children were young, after seeing how they were failing to thrive in traditional school. We talk about her deschooling process and how important it is to change the stories in our heads, and to focus on the here and now and the connection with our children. I hope you enjoy the conversation.Connect with SueUnschooling Mom2Mom: http://www.UnschoolingMom2Mom.comCreating Confidence Daily App: https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/creating-confidence-dailyUnschooling Membership Community: https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/creating-confidence-membershipStrewing Calendar: https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/strewing-calendarsIf you'd like to support the podcast and the sharing of these stories, you can do that here.   Thank you!The Parent's Handbook to Unschooling Yourself. A Mindful Guide to Embracing a New Way of Living and Learning With Your ChildYou can find my blog, workshops and courses at:www.esther-jones.comOr, connect with me onInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/estherjones.unschoolingFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheUnschoolSpace

Welcome to a new series on the podcast that we're calling A Field Guide, in which we're working our way through Pam's book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. We're using the chapters of the book as monthly themes in the Living Joyfully Network, which is bringing everything top of mind for us, and got […]

What if the biggest problem with education isn't your child… but the school system itself?In this episode of the Homeschool How To Podcast, Cheryl sits down with Dr. Peter Gray, author of Free to Learn, to talk about what schools get fundamentally wrong about how children actually learn.They discuss the hidden history of schooling, why shame and obedience are still built into the system, how kids learn to read and do math when they're actually ready, and why self-directed learning may be far more effective than most parents have been led to believe.If you've ever wondered whether your child is really “behind,” whether school is preparing kids for life, or whether there's a better way to learn, this conversation will challenge the way you think about education.In this episode, we discuss: what schools were originally designed to do  why forced learning often backfires  reading without a rigid timeline  math anxiety and real-life math  why motivation changes everything  how children learn when they're trusted About Dr. Peter Gray: Dr. Peter Gray is a research professor, psychologist, and author of Free to Learn. His work focuses on self-directed education, play, and the ways modern schooling conflicts with children's natural development.Resources mentioned:Free to Learn by Dr. Peter Gray Dr. Gray's website: https://www.petergray.org/Check out Dr. Gray's SubstackCheryl's eBook- The Homeschool How To: Complete Starter GuideIf this episode encouraged you, be sure to follow the show, leave a review, and share it with a parent who needs to hear this.Support the showInstagram: TheHomeschoolHowToPodcast Facebook: The Homeschool How To Podcast

Text Sue what you think!“If we don't use a curriculum... how do we plan anything?”It's the number one question new unschoolers ask. If stepping away from traditional lesson plans makes you feel like you've lost your roadmap, this episode is for you! Welcome to Season 6 of the Unschooling Mom2Mom podcast! This week, host Sue Patterson explains why planning as an unschooling parent isn't about deciding what your child must learn next. It's about shaping an environment where curiosity has room to grow. When you let go of the need to control the learning, you remove the friction in your home. We're shifting the focus from "planning school" to "planning for connection." In this episode, you'll learn 3 simple planning tools unschooling parents use:The "Look at the Week" Conversation: How to build a natural family rhythm based on real life, not an imaginary school schedule.The "Idea Parking Lot": A stress-free way to offer invitations to learn (strewing) without assigning tasks.The "Just Data" Review: A simple weekly habit to help you step back, notice the learning that is already happening, and stop the "Are we doing enough?" panic spiral.Learning doesn't need nearly as much management as we were taught. Tune in for your 10-minute pep talk to help you build a life where learning naturally fits!Resources Mentioned in this Episode: Need more daily support or a community of like-minded parents to help you brainstorm? You don't have to do this alone!Join the Creating Confidence Membership:  https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/creating-confidence-membershipGet Daily Reassurance with the Creating Confidence App:  https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/creating-confidence-dailyStrewing Calendar Ideas DAILY!  https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/strewing-calendarsSupport the show_____________________________________________________As always, reach out if you need more help.  You don't have to do this alone!Creating Confidence DAILY - the Unschooling App you need!Start Free Trial Today!Creating Confidence Membership Group  Podcast listeners can join without the sign up fee - so use this link!UNSCHOOLING 101 CourseMath WITHOUT Curriculum CourseUnschooling Transcript CourseSeasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resourceswww.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

Text Sue what you think!Pi Day is one of those holidays parents often try to make “fun.” But sometimes the issue isn't the activity — it's the hype.Here's a quick unschooling perspective on Pi Day and why kids often respond better to curiosity than to pressure.Instead of trying to convince kids something is fun, unschooling families often offer ideas lightly — letting interest show up naturally.Sometimes kids lean in.Sometimes they don't.And both are completely normal.Sue Patterson also shares a simple way to introduce Pi Day at home without turning it into a big event. Just remember, real learning doesn't need a sales pitch.Huge collection of Pi Day ideas here:https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/pi-dayBlogpost: The Reality of Pi Day for Unschooling Families

Text Sue what you think!What can unschooling families learn from the neurodivergent community?In this episode, Sue Patterson looks at how our understanding of “quirky” kids has changed over the years—and why many unschooling parents are learning from approaches developed within the neurodivergent community.Even families without a diagnosis can benefit from these ideas when kids struggle with expectations, pressure, or social dynamics.In this episode:Reassurance for parents of neurodivergent childrenHow the conversation around neurodivergence has evolvedWhy many families turn to unschooling when school isn't working What parents can learn from neurodivergent-informed parenting approachesResources for neurodivergent familiesSue also shares details about the Unschooling Summit, where many speakers will be discussing neurodivergence in unschooling families.

In this episode of The Homeschool HowTo Podcast, Cheryl sits down with Stephany Rios — a homeschooling mom of five — to talk about building a business from home, navigating dyslexia, and learning to let go of school timelines.Stephany shares: • The preschool bus moment that made homeschooling non-negotiable • Running a jewelry business while homeschooling • What to do when curriculum isn't working • Discovering her daughter's dyslexia • Practical tools that helped • Why being “behind” isn't failure • Creating a morning rhythm that works • How real-life learning beats rigid schedulesIf you've ever wondered whether you're doing enough… If your child struggles with reading… If you're juggling work and homeschooling…This conversation will remind you that you have time — and that love of learning matters more than checklists.Find Stephany:IG  @ivianaandco; @stephriosblogwww.stephriosblog.com    (Blog)www.ivianaandco.com  (Jewelry)Home(school) with Steph Podcast 

Text Sue what you think!Do you need to revisit deschooling as your child gets older? Many unschooling and homeschooling parents start worrying about learning gaps, grade levels, falling behind, and whether unschooling is “working.”Deschooling is often treated as a beginning phase of homeschooling. But school conditioning doesn't disappear once. It resurfaces in layers.In this episode, we talk about:• Why deschooling isn't one-and-done • How grade-level thinking creeps back in • Why independence can trigger anxiety • Common fears about gaps and timelines • How to recalibrate without returning to school-at-home structureIf you're homeschooling without curriculum, exploring unschooling, or noticing old school-based fears resurfacing, this episode will help you pause, recognize the pattern, and revisit deschooling with steadiness instead of urgency.Deschooling isn't finished. It evolves as your child grows.____________________________RESOURCES: Creating Confidence (private community or daily app) https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/creating-confidence-dailyDeschooling Toolkit https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/product/Deschooling-ToolkitRead Transcript at the Blog  https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/deschooling-isnt-something-you-finishSupport the show_____________________________________________________As always, reach out if you need more help. You don't have to do this alone!Creating Confidence DAILY - the Unschooling App you need!Start Free Trial Today! Creating Confidence Membership Group Podcast listeners can join without the sign up fee - so use this link! UNSCHOOLING 101 Course Math WITHOUT Curriculum Course Unschooling Transcript Course Seasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resources www.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

Join other parents from around the world for three days of inspiration and community at The Unschooling Summit. This free virtual event will feature 90+ unschooling experts and advocates.

Text Sue what you think!If you're an unschooling or homeschooling parent struggling with doubt, internal criticism, or wondering if you're doing enough, this episode is for you. We talk about how unschooling confidence is built through daily reinforcement — not one-time inspiration.Start your free week of Creating Confidence Daily here:https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/creating-confidence-dailyUnschooling doubt doesn't disappear just because you left school.Old scripts — about productivity, laziness, timelines, and “doing enough” — are still there criticizing you.And when real life gets loud, those voices get louder.In this episode, we talk about:How to grow your confidenceHow old school-conditioned thinking resurfaces under stressWhy reinforcement matters more than motivationWhat it looks like to “practice perspective”And why adding a steady voice into the mix can change everythingYou don't have to silence the critical voices completely.But you don't have to let them be the only ones speaking. I want to be in there too —elbowing them out of the way.If daily reinforcement would help you stay grounded in your unschooling values, Creating Confidence Daily was built for exactly that — short, steady reminders that fit into real life.Try it free for a week here:https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/creating-confidence-dailyI'll see you there — and I'll be back here next week.Support the show_____________________________________________________As always, reach out if you need more help. You don't have to do this alone!Creating Confidence DAILY - the Unschooling App you need!Start Free Trial Today! Creating Confidence Membership Group Podcast listeners can join without the sign up fee - so use this link! UNSCHOOLING 101 Course Math WITHOUT Curriculum Course Unschooling Transcript Course Seasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue Stay Connected:Free Email List with weekly unschooling resources www.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

The conversation explores the journey of unschooling, emphasizing the importance of community and connection, as well as the challenges encountered along the way. It also delves into the upcoming Unschooling Summit and its speakers, highlighting the significance of clarifying the concept of unschooling and of providing a platform for learning and community building. The Unschooling Summit features a diverse range of speakers and topics, including leaders in the Indian unschooling movement, grief and joy, and neurodivergent themes. The summit emphasizes human themes and the importance of relationships, offering a holistic perspective on unschooling and parenting.TakeawaysUnschooling as a journey of discoveryThe importance of community and connection in unschooling Unschooling Summit features a diverse range of speakers and topicsThe summit emphasizes human themes and the importance of relationships.You can find Esther Jones on Instagram and learn more on her website.You can find Melissa Crockett-Joyoue on Instagram and learn more about her Weave ND Community on her site.To learn more about The Unschooling Summit, check out their Instagram or website.Chapters00:00 Introduction and International Connection08:55 Defining Unschooling16:31 Unschooling Summit and Community Building22:49 Speakers and Topics at the Unschooling Summit

Text Sue what you think!You feel steady about unschooling… and then one comment, one comparison, one tired day — and you spiral.Why does confidence disappear so fast?Let's unpack why unschooling confidence doesn't “stick” — even when you understand the philosophy.Confidence doesn't grow on autopilot. It comes from intentionally brining it back to the front of our minds. Rhythm and repetition. Today, we'll talk about: • Why doubt resurfaces in cycles • The difference between insight and daily reinforcement • Why bingeing encouragement doesn't work • How 10–15 intentional minutes can steady your thinkingIf you've ever thought, “I know this… so why am I still worried?” — this one's for you.NEW UNSCHOOLING RESOURCE:Creating Confidence Daily opens February 22. A simple daily reset to help you stay steady instead of riding the emotional rollercoaster.Learn more: https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/creating-confidence-dailyRead the transcript: https://www.unschoolingmom2mom.com/the-real-reason-your-unschooling-confidence-disappears-and-how-to-strengthen-itHappy unschooling.Support the show_____________________________________________________As always, reach out if you need more help. You don't have to do this alone!Free Email List with weekly unschooling resourcesLike what you're hearing - buy Sue a cup of coffee! Buy Me a Coffee Creating Confidence Membership Group Podcast listeners can join without the sign up fee - so use this link! UNSCHOOLING 101 Course Math WITHOUT Curriculum Course Unschooling Transcript Course Seasonal Unschooling Guides Private 1:1 Coaching with Sue www.UnschoolingMom2Mom.com

send us a text via Fan Mail!Building a secure and trusting relationship with our teenagers is at the heart of this episode. I discuss practical information, credits most post-secondary institutions are looking for and supporting our teenagers in their decision making along the way. 1:45 - Laying the foundation 3:26 - It's okay if it's a confusing time 5:19 - Allowing our teens to make decisions  7:52 - Relationship is vital 12:50 - A typical course of study 18:54 - Unschooling and conventional transcripts As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.Hold On to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld Revolution of Mercy by Bonnie Landry Unschooling to University by Judy ArnallGetting along: the foundation of successful homeschooling (podcast) maintain intimacy, maintain influence (blog post) homeschooling high school (blog post + additional resources) Contact On Instagram at @make.joy.normal By email at makejoynormal@gmail.com Search podcast episodes by topic www.bonnielandry.ca Shop my recommended resources Thanks for listening to Make Joy Normal Podcast!

What does homeschooling look like after the kids are grown — and what advice actually holds up over 25 years? This week, I bring back a favorite episode of mine to help remind me what's really important while taking this homeschooling journey. In this episode of The Homeschool How To Podcast, I talk with Rosemary, a New Jersey mom of four who homeschooled all the way through high school and is now on the other side: kids launched, college decisions made, careers started, and the long view finally clear.Rosemary shares the approach that shaped her homeschool—part structure, part freedom—with a few non-negotiables (like math facts and early reading), plus a powerful reminder: you're replaceable at work… but irreplaceable in your child's life.You'll also hear:Why agency is one of the biggest gifts homeschooling can giveHow she balanced academics + interests + sports as kids got olderWhen and why she started testing (and what she learned)How her kids handled the culture shock of college environmentsA practical framework every family can use: Dojo • Cafeteria • LibraryA “well-kept secret” resource: Learning Unlimited (Saturday classes taught by graduate students)If you're new to homeschooling—or you're deep in the weeds—this conversation will help you zoom out and build a homeschool that's less about checklists and more about raising capable, grounded kids who know how to learn. 

The Exploring Unschooling Podcast began at the beginning of 2016 when Pam released episode EU001: What is Unschooling? 10 Years! And 400 Episodes! To celebrate these huge milestones, we are looking back and reflecting this month. In Part 1 of our celebration, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the question of what we've learned on our […]

Today we're exploring unschooling—not just as an educational choice, but as a deeply personal and often healing journey for parents themselves. My guest is Esther Jones, an unschooling mother of three, the founder of The Unschool Space podcast, and the author of The Parent's Handbook to Unschooling Yourself. Esther was led into unschooling by her own children, who challenged her to unravel long-held beliefs about parenting, learning, and neurodiversity. Esther and I talk about what it really takes to step away from conventional expectations and learn to trust children's natural learning processes. We also explore the emotional work parents often need to do along the way, the importance of self-care and community support, and how mindfulness and self-compassion can become essential tools as families build lives beyond traditional schooling—ones where both kids and parents can truly thrive. About Esther Jones Esther Jones is an unschooling mother of three, founder of the The Unschool Space podcast and author of the recently published The Parent's Handbook to Unschooling Yourself.Esther was led into unschooling by her children, who have helped her unravel years of conditioned beliefs around parenting, children, learning and neurodiversity. Today, she supports other parents in transforming their mindset and building a life beyond traditional schooling in which their children and themselves can thrive, using mindfulness and self-compassion as the foundational tools for change. Things you'll learn from this episode   How unschooling requires parents to unlearn old beliefs and embrace the discomfort that signals growth Why trusting children to lead their own learning allows them to explore in organic, joyful ways How self-care and community support strengthen a parent's ability to show up for their child in an unschooling environment Why each child's needs may look different from their parent's—and how modeling our own passions supports their learning How online resources can expand support networks and deepen confidence for unschooling families Why the unschooling journey often becomes a healing process for parents as much as a learning journey for kids Resources mentioned Esther Jones' website The Parent's Handbook to Unschooling Yourself by Esther Jones The Unschool Space Podcast Esther Jones on Instagram Esther Jones on Substack A Conversation with Dr. Naomi Fisher on Self-Directed Learning (Tilt Parenting podcast) Blake Boles and His Book, Why Are You Still Sending Your Child to School? (Tilt Parenting podcast) Why Are You Still Sending Your Kids to School? The Case for Helping Them Leave, Chart Their Own Paths, and Prepare for Adulthood at Their Own Pace by Blake Boles The Art of Self-Directed Learning: 23 Tips for Giving Yourself an Unconventional Education by Blake Boles Blake Boles on the Gift of Unschooling (Tilt Parenting podcast)   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What actually happens when an unschooler decides they want to try school?In this episode, I'm sharing the story of our 9-year-old daughter choosing to go to school. Before that day, she had never once stepped into a classroom. I talk about why we agreed to it. How we prepared. What the transition into a classroom was actually like. How she went socially. What happened academically. What sort of overall impact it had on her. And whether, in the end, it lasted.If you've ever found yourself wondering whether school might be “worth a try”, or you have a child asking about it and no real sense of how that would play out, this episode will give you a grounded, objective, lived perspective from the inside.For regular encouragement and support just like this, including weekly research-backed episodes to help you design and live your best possible life outside school, sign up to my full Life Without School Collection right here: https://www.starkravingdadblog.com/support-my-work-while-i-support-you/