Podcast appearances and mentions of gil tayar

Gil Tayar is a Principal Software Engineer at Microsoft, developer advocate, and conference speaker. Gil's contributions to the Node.js ecosystem include adding support for ECMAScript Modules in Node.js to Mocha and TestDouble. He joins the show to talk about his history in software engineering, monorepos vs polyrepos, the state of JavaScript, and more. Josh Goldberg The post Node.js and the Javascript Ecosystem with Gil Tayar appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

Gil Tayar is a Principal Software Engineer at Microsoft, developer advocate, and conference speaker. Gil’s contributions to the Node.js ecosystem include adding support for ECMAScript Modules in Node.js to Mocha and TestDouble. He joins the show to talk about his history in software engineering, monorepos vs polyrepos, the state of JavaScript, and more. Josh Goldberg The post Node.js and the Javascript Ecosystem with Gil Tayar appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

In this episode of OpenHive.JS, we talk to Gil Tayar, whose fascination with software development has not dimmed over 30 years. Passionate about distributed systems and scaling development to big teams, Gil has worked at companies including Wix and Applitools and is currently a software architect at Roundforest. Today, he talks about ECMAScript modules (ESM) with JavaScript. Welcome back to OpenHive.JS.

Long time friend of the show Gil Tayar joins us again this time to discussing using JSDoc for JavaScript type annotations instead of TypeScript. Turns out that you can now get all of the benefits of TypeScript types without having to adopt the entire TypeScript workflow. Gil describes the benefits of this approach, and how it could impact the future of Web development. Panel Aimee Knight Charles Max Wood Dan Shappir Steve Edwards Guest Gil Tayar Sponsors JavaScript Error and Performance Monitoring | Sentry DigitalOcean Dev Influencers Accelerator Links Use JSDocs: Index JSDoc - WIkipedia JSDoc typings: all the benefits of TypeScript, with none of the drawbacks JSJ 441: The Present and Future of JavaScript Bundling and Delivery with Yoav Weiss | Devchat.tv Twitter: Gil Tayar ( @giltayar ) Picks Charles- Ruby Rogues | Devchat.tv Charles- Built Bars Charles- Back Market Dan- Progress Delayed Is Progress Denied - Infrequently Noted Gil- Daring Fireball Gil- Stratechery by Ben Thompson Steve- Why You’re Christian - David Perell Steve- My Favorite One Liners | Muhammad Contact Aimee: Aimee Knight – Software Architect, and International Keynote Speaker GitHub: Aimee Knight ( AimeeKnight ) Twitter: Aimee Knight ( @Aimee_Knight ) LinkedIn: Aimee K. aimeemarieknight | Instagram Aimee Knight | Facebook Contact Charles: Devchat.tv DevChat.tv | Facebook Twitter: DevChat.tv ( @devchattv ) Contact Dan: GitHub: Dan Shappir ( DanShappir ) LinkedIn: Dan Shappir Twitter: Dan Shappir ( @DanShappir ) Contact Steve: Twitter: Steve Edwards ( @wonder95 ) GitHub: Steve Edwards ( wonder95 ) LinkedIn: Steve Edwards

Long time friend of the show Gil Tayar joins us again this time to discussing using JSDoc for JavaScript type annotations instead of TypeScript. Turns out that you can now get all of the benefits of TypeScript types without having to adopt the entire TypeScript workflow. Gil describes the benefits of this approach, and how it could impact the future of Web development. Panel Aimee Knight Charles Max Wood Dan Shappir Steve Edwards Guest Gil Tayar Sponsors JavaScript Error and Performance Monitoring | Sentry DigitalOcean Dev Influencers Accelerator Links Use JSDocs: Index JSDoc - WIkipedia JSDoc typings: all the benefits of TypeScript, with none of the drawbacks JSJ 441: The Present and Future of JavaScript Bundling and Delivery with Yoav Weiss | Devchat.tv Twitter: Gil Tayar ( @giltayar ) Picks Charles- Ruby Rogues | Devchat.tv Charles- Built Bars Charles- Back Market Dan- Progress Delayed Is Progress Denied - Infrequently Noted Gil- Daring Fireball Gil- Stratechery by Ben Thompson Steve- Why You’re Christian - David Perell Steve- My Favorite One Liners | Muhammad Contact Aimee: Aimee Knight – Software Architect, and International Keynote Speaker GitHub: Aimee Knight ( AimeeKnight ) Twitter: Aimee Knight ( @Aimee_Knight ) LinkedIn: Aimee K. aimeemarieknight | Instagram Aimee Knight | Facebook Contact Charles: Devchat.tv DevChat.tv | Facebook Twitter: DevChat.tv ( @devchattv ) Contact Steve: Twitter: Steve Edwards ( @wonder95 ) GitHub: Steve Edwards ( wonder95 ) LinkedIn: Steve Edwards

Long time friend of the show Gil Tayar joins us again this time to discussing using JSDoc for JavaScript type annotations instead of TypeScript. Turns out that you can now get all of the benefits of TypeScript types without having to adopt the entire TypeScript workflow. Gil describes the benefits of this approach, and how it could impact the future of Web development. Panel Aimee Knight Charles Max Wood Dan Shappir Steve Edwards Guest Gil Tayar Sponsors JavaScript Error and Performance Monitoring | Sentry DigitalOcean Dev Influencers Accelerator Links Use JSDocs: Index JSDoc - WIkipedia JSDoc typings: all the benefits of TypeScript, with none of the drawbacks JSJ 441: The Present and Future of JavaScript Bundling and Delivery with Yoav Weiss | Devchat.tv Twitter: Gil Tayar ( @giltayar ) Picks Charles- Ruby Rogues | Devchat.tv Charles- Built Bars Charles- Back Market Dan- Progress Delayed Is Progress Denied - Infrequently Noted Gil- Daring Fireball Gil- Stratechery by Ben Thompson Steve- Why You’re Christian - David Perell Steve- My Favorite One Liners | Muhammad Contact Aimee: Aimee Knight – Software Architect, and International Keynote Speaker GitHub: Aimee Knight ( AimeeKnight ) Twitter: Aimee Knight ( @Aimee_Knight ) LinkedIn: Aimee K. aimeemarieknight | Instagram Aimee Knight | Facebook Contact Charles: Devchat.tv DevChat.tv | Facebook Twitter: DevChat.tv ( @devchattv ) Contact Steve: Twitter: Steve Edwards ( @wonder95 ) GitHub: Steve Edwards ( wonder95 ) LinkedIn: Steve Edwards

From the olden days of DOS, Gil was, is, and always will be a software dev. He has co-founded WebCollage and designed cloudy projects at Wix. His current passion is figuring out how to test software as the Senior Architect at Applitools.

Gil Tayar gave a presentation recently on ES modules in Node. He joins the panel to discuss how to use and think about ES modules. With considerable pushback from AJ, Gil explains how to start using modules and what the tradeoffs are between modules, script tags, and build tools. Panel AJ O’Neal Aimee Knight Charles Max Wood Steve Edwards Dan Shappir Guest Gil Tayar Sponsors G2i | Enjoy the luxuries of freelancing Remote Work: Get a Job or Make a Career Working From Home "The MaxCoders Guide to Finding Your Dream Developer Job" by Charles Max Wood is now available on Amazon. Get Your Copy Today! Links JSJ 341: Testing in JavaScript with Gil Tayar Picks AJ O’Neal: USB 4 Heavy Duty Suction Cups Miracle Berry Aimee Knight: AJ ONeal - YouTube Charles Max Wood: Dr. Erickson COVID video Zelda: Breath of the Wild 75HARD Steve Edwards: Don’t Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus The Pigeon Finds a Hot Dog Dan Shappir: webinstall.dev Visit Israel Gil Tayar: Follow Gil on Twitter > @giltayar Sunset Blvd Node v14.0.0 Follow JavaScript Jabber on Twitter > @JSJabber    

Gil Tayar gave a presentation recently on ES modules in Node. He joins the panel to discuss how to use and think about ES modules. With considerable pushback from AJ, Gil explains how to start using modules and what the tradeoffs are between modules, script tags, and build tools. Panel AJ O’Neal Aimee Knight Charles Max Wood Steve Edwards Dan Shappir Guest Gil Tayar Sponsors G2i | Enjoy the luxuries of freelancing Remote Work: Get a Job or Make a Career Working From Home "The MaxCoders Guide to Finding Your Dream Developer Job" by Charles Max Wood is now available on Amazon. Get Your Copy Today! Links JSJ 341: Testing in JavaScript with Gil Tayar Picks AJ O’Neal: USB 4 Heavy Duty Suction Cups Miracle Berry Aimee Knight: AJ ONeal - YouTube Charles Max Wood: Dr. Erickson COVID video Zelda: Breath of the Wild 75HARD Steve Edwards: Don’t Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus The Pigeon Finds a Hot Dog Dan Shappir: webinstall.dev Visit Israel Gil Tayar: Follow Gil on Twitter > @giltayar Sunset Blvd Node v14.0.0 Follow JavaScript Jabber on Twitter > @JSJabber    

Gil Tayar gave a presentation recently on ES modules in Node. He joins the panel to discuss how to use and think about ES modules. With considerable pushback from AJ, Gil explains how to start using modules and what the tradeoffs are between modules, script tags, and build tools. Panel AJ O’Neal Aimee Knight Charles Max Wood Steve Edwards Dan Shappir Guest Gil Tayar Sponsors G2i | Enjoy the luxuries of freelancing Remote Work: Get a Job or Make a Career Working From Home "The MaxCoders Guide to Finding Your Dream Developer Job" by Charles Max Wood is now available on Amazon. Get Your Copy Today! Links JSJ 341: Testing in JavaScript with Gil Tayar Picks AJ O’Neal: USB 4 Heavy Duty Suction Cups Miracle Berry Aimee Knight: AJ ONeal - YouTube Charles Max Wood: Dr. Erickson COVID video Zelda: Breath of the Wild 75HARD Steve Edwards: Don’t Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus The Pigeon Finds a Hot Dog Dan Shappir: webinstall.dev Visit Israel Gil Tayar: Follow Gil on Twitter > @giltayar Sunset Blvd Node v14.0.0 Follow JavaScript Jabber on Twitter > @JSJabber    

Testing is tough. This week we have Senior Applitools Architect Gil Tayar on the show to explain the types of testing, why you should test, and how to test node without pulling your hair out.

Sponsors Sentry use the code “devchat” for 2 months free on Sentry small plan CacheFly  Host: Charles Max Wood Special Guest: Gil Tayar Episode Summary In this episode of My JavaScript Story, Charles Max Wood hosts Gil Tayar, a Senior Architect at Applitools from Israel. Listen to Gil on the podcast JavaScript Jabber Testing in JavaScript with Gil Tayar. Gil started his developing journey when he was 13 years old. He continued his training during his military service and became an instructor for the PC unit. During this time, he learned and taught C, C++ and Windows. He then started working  for Wix before he went onto co-found his own startup. You can listen to Dan Shappir, another developer from Wix that has been a guest on the podcast JavaScript Jabber on this episode. During this experience Gil realized he loves the coding side of the business but not the management side. Gil also loves testing and he very much enjoys his work at Applitools. As a Senior Architect in Applitools R&D, he has designed and built Applitools' Rendering Service. Links JavaScript Jabber: Testing in JavaScript with Gil Tayar JavaScript Jabber: “Web Performance API” with Dan Shappir Start-up Nation: The Story of Israel's Economic Miracle by Dan Senor and Saul Singer WIX Gil’s LinkedIn Gil’s Twitter Gil’s Medium Applitools Kubernetes https://devchat.tv/my-javascript-story/ Picks Gil Tayar: The Polish German War The Great War 1919 Channel Peaky Blinders My Struggle (Knausgård novels) Charles Max Wood: The MFCEO Project Podcast - Andy Frisella The #AskGaryVee Show podcast! - Gary Vaynerchuk A Farewell to Arms by Ernest Hemingway    

Sponsors Sentry use the code “devchat” for 2 months free on Sentry small plan CacheFly  Host: Charles Max Wood Special Guest: Gil Tayar Episode Summary In this episode of My JavaScript Story, Charles Max Wood hosts Gil Tayar, a Senior Architect at Applitools from Israel. Listen to Gil on the podcast JavaScript Jabber Testing in JavaScript with Gil Tayar. Gil started his developing journey when he was 13 years old. He continued his training during his military service and became an instructor for the PC unit. During this time, he learned and taught C, C++ and Windows. He then started working  for Wix before he went onto co-found his own startup. You can listen to Dan Shappir, another developer from Wix that has been a guest on the podcast JavaScript Jabber on this episode. During this experience Gil realized he loves the coding side of the business but not the management side. Gil also loves testing and he very much enjoys his work at Applitools. As a Senior Architect in Applitools R&D, he has designed and built Applitools' Rendering Service. Links JavaScript Jabber: Testing in JavaScript with Gil Tayar JavaScript Jabber: “Web Performance API” with Dan Shappir Start-up Nation: The Story of Israel's Economic Miracle by Dan Senor and Saul Singer WIX Gil’s LinkedIn Gil’s Twitter Gil’s Medium Applitools Kubernetes https://devchat.tv/my-javascript-story/ Picks Gil Tayar: The Polish German War The Great War 1919 Channel Peaky Blinders My Struggle (Knausgård novels) Charles Max Wood: The MFCEO Project Podcast - Andy Frisella The #AskGaryVee Show podcast! - Gary Vaynerchuk A Farewell to Arms by Ernest Hemingway    

Sponsors Sentry use the code “devchat” for 2 months free on Sentry small plan CacheFly  Host: Charles Max Wood Special Guest: Gil Tayar Episode Summary In this episode of My JavaScript Story, Charles Max Wood hosts Gil Tayar, a Senior Architect at Applitools from Israel. Listen to Gil on the podcast JavaScript Jabber Testing in JavaScript with Gil Tayar. Gil started his developing journey when he was 13 years old. He continued his training during his military service and became an instructor for the PC unit. During this time, he learned and taught C, C++ and Windows. He then started working  for Wix before he went onto co-found his own startup. You can listen to Dan Shappir, another developer from Wix that has been a guest on the podcast JavaScript Jabber on this episode. During this experience Gil realized he loves the coding side of the business but not the management side. Gil also loves testing and he very much enjoys his work at Applitools. As a Senior Architect in Applitools R&D, he has designed and built Applitools' Rendering Service. Links JavaScript Jabber: Testing in JavaScript with Gil Tayar JavaScript Jabber: “Web Performance API” with Dan Shappir Start-up Nation: The Story of Israel's Economic Miracle by Dan Senor and Saul Singer WIX Gil’s LinkedIn Gil’s Twitter Gil’s Medium Applitools Kubernetes https://devchat.tv/my-javascript-story/ Picks Gil Tayar: The Polish German War The Great War 1919 Channel Peaky Blinders My Struggle (Knausgård novels) Charles Max Wood: The MFCEO Project Podcast - Andy Frisella The #AskGaryVee Show podcast! - Gary Vaynerchuk A Farewell to Arms by Ernest Hemingway    

Panel: Aimee Knight AJ O’Neal Charles Max Wood Special Guest: Gil Tayar In this episode, the panel talks with Gil Tayar who is currently residing in Tel Aviv and is a software engineer. He is currently the Senior Architect at Applitools in Israel. The panel and the guest talk about the different types of tests and when/how one is to use a certain test in a particular situation. They also mention Node, React, Selenium, Puppeteer, and much more! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: KENDO UI 0:35 – Chuck: Our panel is AJ, Aimee, myself – and our special guest is Gil Tayar. Tell us why you are famous! 1:13 – Gil talks about where he resides and his background.  2:27 – Chuck: What is the landscape like now with testing and testing tools now? 2:39 – Guest: There is a huge renaissance with the JavaScript community. Testing has moved forward in the frontend and backend. Today we have lots of testing tools.  We can do frontend testing that wasn’t possible 5 years ago. The major change was React. The guest talks about Node, React, tools, and more! 4:17 – Aimee: I advocate for tests and testing. There is a grey area though...how do you treat that? If you have to get something into production, but it’s not THE thing to get into production, does that fall into product or...what? 5:02 – Guest: We decided to test everything in the beginning. We actually cam through and did that and since then I don’t think I can use the right code without testing. There are a lot of different situations, though, to consider. The guest gives hypothetical situations that people could face. 6:27 – Aimee. 6:32 – Guest: The horror to changing code without tests, I don’t know, I haven’t done that for a while. You write with fear in your heart. Your design is driven by fear, and not what you think is right. In the beginning don’t write those tests, but... 7:22 – Aimee: I totally agree and I could go on and on and on. 7:42 – Panel: I want to do tests when I know they will create value. I don’t want to do it b/c it’s a mundane thing. Secondly, I find that some times I am in a situation where I cannot write the test b/c I would have to know the business logic is correct. I am in this discovery mode of what is the business logic? I am not just building your app. I guess I just need advice in this area, I guess. 8:55 – Guest gives advice to panelist’s question. He mentions how there are two schools of thought. 10:20 – Guest: Don’t mock too much. 10:54 – Panel: Are unit tests the easiest? I just reach for unit testing b/c it helps me code faster. But 90% of my code is NOT that. 11:18 – Guest: Exactly! Most of our test is glue – gluing together a bunch of different stuff! Those are best tested as a medium-sized integration suite. 12:39 – Panel: That seems like a lot of work, though! I loathe the database stuff b/c they don’t map cleanly. I hate this database stuff. 13:06 – Guest: I agree, but don’t knock the database, but knock the level above the database. 13:49 – Guest: Yes, it takes time! Building the script and the testing tools, but when you have it then adding to it is zero time. Once you are in the air it’s smooth sailing. 14:17 – Panel: I guess I can see that. I like to do the dumb-way the first time. I am not clear on the transition. 14:47 – Guest: Write the code, and then write the tests. The guest gives a hypothetical situation on how/when to test in a certain situation. 16:25 – Panel: Can you talk about that more, please? 16:50 – Guest: Don’t have the same unit – do browser and business logic stuff separated. The real business logic stuff needs to be above that level. First principle is separation of concerns. 18:04 – Panel talks about dependency interjection and asks a question. 18:27 – Guest: What I am talking about very, very light inter-dependency interjection. 19:19 – Panel: You have a main function and you are doing requires in the main function. You are passing the pieces of that into the components that need it. 19:44 – Guest: I only do it when it’s necessary; it’s not a religion for me. I do it only for those layers that I know will need to be mocked; like database layers, etc. 20:09 – Panel. 20:19 – Guest: It’s taken me 80 years to figure out, but I have made plenty of mistakes a long the way. A test should run for 2-5 minutes max for package. 20:53 – Panel: What if you have a really messy legacy system? How do you recommend going into that? Do you write tests for things that you think needs to get tested? 21:39 – Guest answers the question and mentions Selenium! 24:27 – Panel: I like that approach. 24:35 – Chuck: When you say integration test what do you mean? 24:44 – Guest: Integration tests aren’t usually talked about. For most people it’s tests that test the database level against the database. For me, the integration tests are taking a set of classes as they are in the application and testing them together w/o the...so they can run in millisecond time. 26:54 – Advertisement – Sentry.io 27:52 – Chuck: How much do the tools matter? 28:01 – Guest: The revolutions matter. Whether you use Jasmine or Mocha or whatever I don’t think it matters. The tests matter not the tools. 28:39 – Aimee: Yes and no. I think some tools are outdated. 28:50 – Guest: I got a lot of flack about my blog where I talk about Cypress versus Selenium. I will never use Jasmine. In the end it’s the 29:29 – Aimee: I am curious would you be willing to expand on what the Selenium folks were saying about Puppeteer and others may not provide? 29:54 – Guest: Cypress was built for frontend developers. They don’t care about cross browser, and they tested in Chrome. Most browsers are typically the same. Selenium was built with the QA mindset – end to end tests that we need to do cross browser. The guest continues with this topic. 30:54 – Aimee mentions Cypress. 31:08 – Guest: My guessing is that their priority is not there. I kind of agree with them. 31:21 – Aimee: I think they are focusing on mobile more. 31:24 – Guest: I think cross browser testing is less of an issue now. There is one area that is important it’s the visual area! It’s important to test visually across these different browsers. 32:32 – Guest: Selenium is a Swiss knife – it can do everything. 33:32 – Chuck: I am thinking about different topics to talk about. I haven’t used Puppeteer. What’s that about? 33:49 – Guest: Puppeteer is much more like Selenium. The reason why it’s great is b/c Puppeteer will always be Google Chrome. 35:42 – Chuck: When should you be running your tests? I like to use some unit tests when I am doing my development but how do you break that down? 36:06 – Guest. 38:30 – Chuck: You run tests against production? 38:45 – Guest: Don’t run tests against production...let me clarify! 39:14 – Chuck. 39:21 – Guest: When I am talking about integration testing in the backend... 40:37 – Chuck asks a question. 40:47 – Guest: I am constantly running between frontend and backend. I didn’t know how to run tests for frontend. I had to invent a new thing and I “invented” the package JS DONG. It’s an implementation of Dong in Node. I found out that I wasn’t the only one and that there were others out there, too. 43:14 – Chuck: Nice! You talked in the prep docs that you urged a new frontend developer to not run the app in the browser for 2 months? 43:25 – Guest: Yeah, I found out that she was running the application...she said she knew how to write tests. I wanted her to see it my way and it probably was a radical train-of-thought, and that was this... 44:40 – Guest: Frontend is so visual. 45:12 – Chuck: What are you working on now? 45:16 – Guest: I am working with Applitools and I was impressed with what they were doing. The guest goes into further detail. 46:08 – Guest: Those screenshots are never the same. 48:36 – Panel: It’s...comparing the output to the static site to the... 48:50 – Guest: Yes, that static site – if you have 30 pages in your app – most of those are the same. We have this trick where we don’t upload it again and again. Uploading the whole static site is usually very quick. The second thing is we don’t wait for the results. We don’t wait for the whole rendering and we continue with the tests. 50:28 – Guest: I am working mostly (right now) in backend. 50:40 – Chuck: Anything else? Picks! 50:57 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! END – Advertisement: CacheFly! Links: JavaScript React Elixir Node.js Puppeteer Cypress SeleniumHQ Article – Ideas.Ted.Com Book: Never Split the Difference Applitools Guest’s Blog Article about Cypress vs. Selenium Gil’s Twitter Gil’s Medium Gil’s LinkedIn Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry CacheFly Picks: Aimee How Showing Vulnerability Helps Build a Stronger Team AJ Never Split the Difference Project - TeleBit Charles Monster Hunter International Metabase Gil Cat Zero The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind

Panel: Aimee Knight AJ O’Neal Charles Max Wood Special Guest: Gil Tayar In this episode, the panel talks with Gil Tayar who is currently residing in Tel Aviv and is a software engineer. He is currently the Senior Architect at Applitools in Israel. The panel and the guest talk about the different types of tests and when/how one is to use a certain test in a particular situation. They also mention Node, React, Selenium, Puppeteer, and much more! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: KENDO UI 0:35 – Chuck: Our panel is AJ, Aimee, myself – and our special guest is Gil Tayar. Tell us why you are famous! 1:13 – Gil talks about where he resides and his background.  2:27 – Chuck: What is the landscape like now with testing and testing tools now? 2:39 – Guest: There is a huge renaissance with the JavaScript community. Testing has moved forward in the frontend and backend. Today we have lots of testing tools.  We can do frontend testing that wasn’t possible 5 years ago. The major change was React. The guest talks about Node, React, tools, and more! 4:17 – Aimee: I advocate for tests and testing. There is a grey area though...how do you treat that? If you have to get something into production, but it’s not THE thing to get into production, does that fall into product or...what? 5:02 – Guest: We decided to test everything in the beginning. We actually cam through and did that and since then I don’t think I can use the right code without testing. There are a lot of different situations, though, to consider. The guest gives hypothetical situations that people could face. 6:27 – Aimee. 6:32 – Guest: The horror to changing code without tests, I don’t know, I haven’t done that for a while. You write with fear in your heart. Your design is driven by fear, and not what you think is right. In the beginning don’t write those tests, but... 7:22 – Aimee: I totally agree and I could go on and on and on. 7:42 – Panel: I want to do tests when I know they will create value. I don’t want to do it b/c it’s a mundane thing. Secondly, I find that some times I am in a situation where I cannot write the test b/c I would have to know the business logic is correct. I am in this discovery mode of what is the business logic? I am not just building your app. I guess I just need advice in this area, I guess. 8:55 – Guest gives advice to panelist’s question. He mentions how there are two schools of thought. 10:20 – Guest: Don’t mock too much. 10:54 – Panel: Are unit tests the easiest? I just reach for unit testing b/c it helps me code faster. But 90% of my code is NOT that. 11:18 – Guest: Exactly! Most of our test is glue – gluing together a bunch of different stuff! Those are best tested as a medium-sized integration suite. 12:39 – Panel: That seems like a lot of work, though! I loathe the database stuff b/c they don’t map cleanly. I hate this database stuff. 13:06 – Guest: I agree, but don’t knock the database, but knock the level above the database. 13:49 – Guest: Yes, it takes time! Building the script and the testing tools, but when you have it then adding to it is zero time. Once you are in the air it’s smooth sailing. 14:17 – Panel: I guess I can see that. I like to do the dumb-way the first time. I am not clear on the transition. 14:47 – Guest: Write the code, and then write the tests. The guest gives a hypothetical situation on how/when to test in a certain situation. 16:25 – Panel: Can you talk about that more, please? 16:50 – Guest: Don’t have the same unit – do browser and business logic stuff separated. The real business logic stuff needs to be above that level. First principle is separation of concerns. 18:04 – Panel talks about dependency interjection and asks a question. 18:27 – Guest: What I am talking about very, very light inter-dependency interjection. 19:19 – Panel: You have a main function and you are doing requires in the main function. You are passing the pieces of that into the components that need it. 19:44 – Guest: I only do it when it’s necessary; it’s not a religion for me. I do it only for those layers that I know will need to be mocked; like database layers, etc. 20:09 – Panel. 20:19 – Guest: It’s taken me 80 years to figure out, but I have made plenty of mistakes a long the way. A test should run for 2-5 minutes max for package. 20:53 – Panel: What if you have a really messy legacy system? How do you recommend going into that? Do you write tests for things that you think needs to get tested? 21:39 – Guest answers the question and mentions Selenium! 24:27 – Panel: I like that approach. 24:35 – Chuck: When you say integration test what do you mean? 24:44 – Guest: Integration tests aren’t usually talked about. For most people it’s tests that test the database level against the database. For me, the integration tests are taking a set of classes as they are in the application and testing them together w/o the...so they can run in millisecond time. 26:54 – Advertisement – Sentry.io 27:52 – Chuck: How much do the tools matter? 28:01 – Guest: The revolutions matter. Whether you use Jasmine or Mocha or whatever I don’t think it matters. The tests matter not the tools. 28:39 – Aimee: Yes and no. I think some tools are outdated. 28:50 – Guest: I got a lot of flack about my blog where I talk about Cypress versus Selenium. I will never use Jasmine. In the end it’s the 29:29 – Aimee: I am curious would you be willing to expand on what the Selenium folks were saying about Puppeteer and others may not provide? 29:54 – Guest: Cypress was built for frontend developers. They don’t care about cross browser, and they tested in Chrome. Most browsers are typically the same. Selenium was built with the QA mindset – end to end tests that we need to do cross browser. The guest continues with this topic. 30:54 – Aimee mentions Cypress. 31:08 – Guest: My guessing is that their priority is not there. I kind of agree with them. 31:21 – Aimee: I think they are focusing on mobile more. 31:24 – Guest: I think cross browser testing is less of an issue now. There is one area that is important it’s the visual area! It’s important to test visually across these different browsers. 32:32 – Guest: Selenium is a Swiss knife – it can do everything. 33:32 – Chuck: I am thinking about different topics to talk about. I haven’t used Puppeteer. What’s that about? 33:49 – Guest: Puppeteer is much more like Selenium. The reason why it’s great is b/c Puppeteer will always be Google Chrome. 35:42 – Chuck: When should you be running your tests? I like to use some unit tests when I am doing my development but how do you break that down? 36:06 – Guest. 38:30 – Chuck: You run tests against production? 38:45 – Guest: Don’t run tests against production...let me clarify! 39:14 – Chuck. 39:21 – Guest: When I am talking about integration testing in the backend... 40:37 – Chuck asks a question. 40:47 – Guest: I am constantly running between frontend and backend. I didn’t know how to run tests for frontend. I had to invent a new thing and I “invented” the package JS DONG. It’s an implementation of Dong in Node. I found out that I wasn’t the only one and that there were others out there, too. 43:14 – Chuck: Nice! You talked in the prep docs that you urged a new frontend developer to not run the app in the browser for 2 months? 43:25 – Guest: Yeah, I found out that she was running the application...she said she knew how to write tests. I wanted her to see it my way and it probably was a radical train-of-thought, and that was this... 44:40 – Guest: Frontend is so visual. 45:12 – Chuck: What are you working on now? 45:16 – Guest: I am working with Applitools and I was impressed with what they were doing. The guest goes into further detail. 46:08 – Guest: Those screenshots are never the same. 48:36 – Panel: It’s...comparing the output to the static site to the... 48:50 – Guest: Yes, that static site – if you have 30 pages in your app – most of those are the same. We have this trick where we don’t upload it again and again. Uploading the whole static site is usually very quick. The second thing is we don’t wait for the results. We don’t wait for the whole rendering and we continue with the tests. 50:28 – Guest: I am working mostly (right now) in backend. 50:40 – Chuck: Anything else? Picks! 50:57 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! END – Advertisement: CacheFly! Links: JavaScript React Elixir Node.js Puppeteer Cypress SeleniumHQ Article – Ideas.Ted.Com Book: Never Split the Difference Applitools Guest’s Blog Article about Cypress vs. Selenium Gil’s Twitter Gil’s Medium Gil’s LinkedIn Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry CacheFly Picks: Aimee How Showing Vulnerability Helps Build a Stronger Team AJ Never Split the Difference Project - TeleBit Charles Monster Hunter International Metabase Gil Cat Zero The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind

Panel: Aimee Knight AJ O’Neal Charles Max Wood Special Guest: Gil Tayar In this episode, the panel talks with Gil Tayar who is currently residing in Tel Aviv and is a software engineer. He is currently the Senior Architect at Applitools in Israel. The panel and the guest talk about the different types of tests and when/how one is to use a certain test in a particular situation. They also mention Node, React, Selenium, Puppeteer, and much more! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement: KENDO UI 0:35 – Chuck: Our panel is AJ, Aimee, myself – and our special guest is Gil Tayar. Tell us why you are famous! 1:13 – Gil talks about where he resides and his background.  2:27 – Chuck: What is the landscape like now with testing and testing tools now? 2:39 – Guest: There is a huge renaissance with the JavaScript community. Testing has moved forward in the frontend and backend. Today we have lots of testing tools.  We can do frontend testing that wasn’t possible 5 years ago. The major change was React. The guest talks about Node, React, tools, and more! 4:17 – Aimee: I advocate for tests and testing. There is a grey area though...how do you treat that? If you have to get something into production, but it’s not THE thing to get into production, does that fall into product or...what? 5:02 – Guest: We decided to test everything in the beginning. We actually cam through and did that and since then I don’t think I can use the right code without testing. There are a lot of different situations, though, to consider. The guest gives hypothetical situations that people could face. 6:27 – Aimee. 6:32 – Guest: The horror to changing code without tests, I don’t know, I haven’t done that for a while. You write with fear in your heart. Your design is driven by fear, and not what you think is right. In the beginning don’t write those tests, but... 7:22 – Aimee: I totally agree and I could go on and on and on. 7:42 – Panel: I want to do tests when I know they will create value. I don’t want to do it b/c it’s a mundane thing. Secondly, I find that some times I am in a situation where I cannot write the test b/c I would have to know the business logic is correct. I am in this discovery mode of what is the business logic? I am not just building your app. I guess I just need advice in this area, I guess. 8:55 – Guest gives advice to panelist’s question. He mentions how there are two schools of thought. 10:20 – Guest: Don’t mock too much. 10:54 – Panel: Are unit tests the easiest? I just reach for unit testing b/c it helps me code faster. But 90% of my code is NOT that. 11:18 – Guest: Exactly! Most of our test is glue – gluing together a bunch of different stuff! Those are best tested as a medium-sized integration suite. 12:39 – Panel: That seems like a lot of work, though! I loathe the database stuff b/c they don’t map cleanly. I hate this database stuff. 13:06 – Guest: I agree, but don’t knock the database, but knock the level above the database. 13:49 – Guest: Yes, it takes time! Building the script and the testing tools, but when you have it then adding to it is zero time. Once you are in the air it’s smooth sailing. 14:17 – Panel: I guess I can see that. I like to do the dumb-way the first time. I am not clear on the transition. 14:47 – Guest: Write the code, and then write the tests. The guest gives a hypothetical situation on how/when to test in a certain situation. 16:25 – Panel: Can you talk about that more, please? 16:50 – Guest: Don’t have the same unit – do browser and business logic stuff separated. The real business logic stuff needs to be above that level. First principle is separation of concerns. 18:04 – Panel talks about dependency interjection and asks a question. 18:27 – Guest: What I am talking about very, very light inter-dependency interjection. 19:19 – Panel: You have a main function and you are doing requires in the main function. You are passing the pieces of that into the components that need it. 19:44 – Guest: I only do it when it’s necessary; it’s not a religion for me. I do it only for those layers that I know will need to be mocked; like database layers, etc. 20:09 – Panel. 20:19 – Guest: It’s taken me 80 years to figure out, but I have made plenty of mistakes a long the way. A test should run for 2-5 minutes max for package. 20:53 – Panel: What if you have a really messy legacy system? How do you recommend going into that? Do you write tests for things that you think needs to get tested? 21:39 – Guest answers the question and mentions Selenium! 24:27 – Panel: I like that approach. 24:35 – Chuck: When you say integration test what do you mean? 24:44 – Guest: Integration tests aren’t usually talked about. For most people it’s tests that test the database level against the database. For me, the integration tests are taking a set of classes as they are in the application and testing them together w/o the...so they can run in millisecond time. 26:54 – Advertisement – Sentry.io 27:52 – Chuck: How much do the tools matter? 28:01 – Guest: The revolutions matter. Whether you use Jasmine or Mocha or whatever I don’t think it matters. The tests matter not the tools. 28:39 – Aimee: Yes and no. I think some tools are outdated. 28:50 – Guest: I got a lot of flack about my blog where I talk about Cypress versus Selenium. I will never use Jasmine. In the end it’s the 29:29 – Aimee: I am curious would you be willing to expand on what the Selenium folks were saying about Puppeteer and others may not provide? 29:54 – Guest: Cypress was built for frontend developers. They don’t care about cross browser, and they tested in Chrome. Most browsers are typically the same. Selenium was built with the QA mindset – end to end tests that we need to do cross browser. The guest continues with this topic. 30:54 – Aimee mentions Cypress. 31:08 – Guest: My guessing is that their priority is not there. I kind of agree with them. 31:21 – Aimee: I think they are focusing on mobile more. 31:24 – Guest: I think cross browser testing is less of an issue now. There is one area that is important it’s the visual area! It’s important to test visually across these different browsers. 32:32 – Guest: Selenium is a Swiss knife – it can do everything. 33:32 – Chuck: I am thinking about different topics to talk about. I haven’t used Puppeteer. What’s that about? 33:49 – Guest: Puppeteer is much more like Selenium. The reason why it’s great is b/c Puppeteer will always be Google Chrome. 35:42 – Chuck: When should you be running your tests? I like to use some unit tests when I am doing my development but how do you break that down? 36:06 – Guest. 38:30 – Chuck: You run tests against production? 38:45 – Guest: Don’t run tests against production...let me clarify! 39:14 – Chuck. 39:21 – Guest: When I am talking about integration testing in the backend... 40:37 – Chuck asks a question. 40:47 – Guest: I am constantly running between frontend and backend. I didn’t know how to run tests for frontend. I had to invent a new thing and I “invented” the package JS DONG. It’s an implementation of Dong in Node. I found out that I wasn’t the only one and that there were others out there, too. 43:14 – Chuck: Nice! You talked in the prep docs that you urged a new frontend developer to not run the app in the browser for 2 months? 43:25 – Guest: Yeah, I found out that she was running the application...she said she knew how to write tests. I wanted her to see it my way and it probably was a radical train-of-thought, and that was this... 44:40 – Guest: Frontend is so visual. 45:12 – Chuck: What are you working on now? 45:16 – Guest: I am working with Applitools and I was impressed with what they were doing. The guest goes into further detail. 46:08 – Guest: Those screenshots are never the same. 48:36 – Panel: It’s...comparing the output to the static site to the... 48:50 – Guest: Yes, that static site – if you have 30 pages in your app – most of those are the same. We have this trick where we don’t upload it again and again. Uploading the whole static site is usually very quick. The second thing is we don’t wait for the results. We don’t wait for the whole rendering and we continue with the tests. 50:28 – Guest: I am working mostly (right now) in backend. 50:40 – Chuck: Anything else? Picks! 50:57 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! END – Advertisement: CacheFly! Links: JavaScript React Elixir Node.js Puppeteer Cypress SeleniumHQ Article – Ideas.Ted.Com Book: Never Split the Difference Applitools Guest’s Blog Article about Cypress vs. Selenium Gil’s Twitter Gil’s Medium Gil’s LinkedIn Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry CacheFly Picks: Aimee How Showing Vulnerability Helps Build a Stronger Team AJ Never Split the Difference Project - TeleBit Charles Monster Hunter International Metabase Gil Cat Zero The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind

Modern Web Podcast on Testing with host Jay Phelps and guests Kent C Dodds and Gil Tayar. Jay Phelps (@_jayphelps) - Lead Software Architect at This Dot, GDEKent C Dodds (@kentcdodds) - Javascript Engineer at PaypalGil Tayar (@giltayar) - Sr Software Architect at Applitools Topics: - React testing utilities by Kent- How many tests should we have?- Terminology: Unit vs. Integration vs. Acceptance etc- Improving test stability- Snapshot testing- Cypress vs. Selenium- Visual testing- Storybook Sponsored by This Dot Labs Follow us on Twitter! @thisdotmedia + @moderndotweb