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Learn more about NikolaFollow Trevor on TwitterSupport the show and get on monthly mentorship calls with Fabian. Join here.Full Transcript:F Geyrhalter:Welcome to the show, Trevor. It's an incredible honor to have you on Hitting The Mark.Trevor:Thanks guys. It's going to be a lot of fun. A lot of stuff's happened, even over the last week. Wow.F Geyrhalter:I wanted to start off with that. I mean, it's been an interesting last week for you. You're officially trading on Nasdaq, which is amazing. And during this whole thing, during the quarantine, must've been a very strange kind of experience for you.Trevor:Yeah. Second biggest day of my life, I tell people, because the first day was when I got married, but the second day definitely was being listed on the Nasdaq. I mean, that's everyone's dream, to become listed on the Nasdaq and doing it through the coronavirus was actually incredible, because I'm a big believer in trying to find the good in all situations. And there was a lot of really difficult things going on around the world with the coronavirus, very sad. And so we turned Nikola into America's comeback story, and that was a company that the world could rally behind that, they'd be proud. America would be proud, the world would be proud. The first zero emission semi-truck manufacturer in the entire world, to be dedicated only to zero emissions. And the investors have heavily rewarded us for it. Today, we're at $53 a share or whatever, about $18 billion valuation in our company. And I mean, we're going to be overtaking the biggest brands in the world here, shortly. And what a wonderful experience that has been, on all levels.F Geyrhalter:And hence, I love having you on so much, especially now a couple days after this, it's amazing. I've been following your brand for quite a while. I'm a happy shareholder now too.Trevor:Oh, thanks.F Geyrhalter:I'm glad to hear the news today. That's good, it seems like we're going into the right direction. But just to read a couple of bullet points from your press release, you raised more than $700 million. Pre-orders represent more than $10 billion in potential revenue and your hydrogen network anticipates to cover all of North America and it sets to become the largest hydrogen network in the world. This is mind blowing, but it's especially remarkable since you founded the company in 2014 and you only officially launched in 2016 with a prototype and only a few engineers. Further, if I'm correct, you're only 37 now, right?Trevor:38.F Geyrhalter:38?Trevor:Yeah, 38.F Geyrhalter:So you started the company when you were 29, out of your basement. So how did you get from there in 2016, to where you are now? I mean, it is not easy to create a company like yours.Trevor:No.F Geyrhalter:Talk us through a little bit of the founding steps. You're kind of compared sometimes, a little bit to Apple, the way that you guys were all sitting in your basement, you know?Trevor:Yeah. I have some really cool articles on my LinkedIn that I would recommend everyone go read. And I put some serious thought into those very heartfelt discussions about what it took to get here. And I'm going to tell you what those are right now, but I want people to know if they want to read in detail, they can go there. I've told everybody that I've ever met, that if you want to create wealth, it will not happen in under 10 years, ever. There are maybe one or two examples in the world that ever did happen quicker than that, unless you just got lucky, like some oil on your property or whatever it may be.But ultimately if you're going to create real wealth, it is a 10 year program and most likely, you're going to fail, the odds are against you. So here's what I tell people, "Look, if you want to be an entrepreneur and you want to do this, it is the most rewarding and invigorating thing on the planet Earth, when you succeed. It's also the most difficult, emotional, draining venture you'll ever do, when you fail. It'll wreck you, it'll wreck your body, your health, everything about you. So the risks are high, the rewards are high and the odds are, you're going to fail." Now, where people succeed is when they've got multiple failures and multiple successes underneath their belt.So this is my fifth company. I'm 38, it's my fifth company. Three of them have been successes and two have been failures. And it's amazing, because you look online and some people are bashing me because they're like, "Ah, I would never want this guy, this fraud, who's failed twice in his life to touch my money." And I'm like, "Well, you should definitely never invest in me or my company then, because I don't know a single baseball player in the world that does not strike out when you're hitting home runs." The best baseball players in the world have a .400 batting average, right?F Geyrhalter:Yeah.Trevor:And so, 4 out of 10... I would never want anyone touching my money, if they haven't failed. Because if you don't know what it's like to lose everything, then you're going to make some really stupid decisions in your life. And so, these are just haters, just online haters that just hate you no matter what.F Geyrhalter:Yeah.Trevor:But to get here, that's the beauty of this. It started out of my basement, truly because we didn't know if we really had a product at that time. We worked out of there for a year. And here we are now, a $18 billion company, a couple days after the Nasdaq listing. So it's pretty incredible.F Geyrhalter:It's a story of determination, that's for sure. Especially going against this kind of industry and fitting in and standing out, it's not easy. Let me share Nikola's mission with the audience. It's to "Transform the transportation industry while improving our employees' lives and leaving the world a better place." Now you're very much a visionary, so mission and vision and values and all of this brand work that I usually do with my clients, that must come naturally to you. But I wonder, have you used outside help to create those brand pillars, like most companies do? Or was this Trevor sitting on his desk late at night, jotting them down?Trevor:It really was. It was a lot of, Trevor sitting down on his desk.F Geyrhalter:I'm not surprised.Trevor:And creating these things. I mean, look, here's the thing, I love communication. It's one of my favorite things in life. I value communication as one of my greatest talents and assets I have. And that's because you can communicate through all the craziness in the world. Like you said, there's so many brands out there, how do you create a brand that is so special to the world? Well, in order to do that, you have to solve problems that are special to the world. And you'll never stand out if you don't change the world.And in our mission statement, to leave this place a better place than we found it, I truly believe that. It's my life goal, to leave this place better than I found it. And Nikola, if we pull this off, which I believe we have a very good chance of doing. If we pull this off, with getting all of our trucks built, all over the world, then you're going to see the greatest reduction in emissions the world has ever seen, ever by any company on the planet. And so, that is why people are rewarding us. They're rewarding us because we're making a bigger change than anyone else is making.F Geyrhalter:Well, you are a purpose driven company and that's not just some brand statement, that is true, right? I mean, you're solving one of the biggest problems, that are out there right now.Trevor:Yeah, you're purpose driven and then you actually have to be profitable. I think that's why Nikola has done so well, is because our business model's huge, our margins are... We make five times more revenue than Daimler does. Now just imagine that, per truck sold. So the reason why we're successful is because we've vertically integrated the whole supply chain. So when you buy a diesel today, heaven forbid. You buy a diesel, you're going to spend 150 on the diesel, right? 150,000.F Geyrhalter:Yeah.Trevor:Then, you're going to spend a million dollars on the oil to power that diesel, over the life of it. So the oil companies are back there, just clapping their hands, loving every second that Peterbilt or Daimler sells a diesel truck. Because they make more revenue than Peterbilt or Daimler has ever dreamed of making.F Geyrhalter:Yeah.Trevor:So that's where I was like, "Dude, this is crazy. Why are we not sucking all that money out of the oil company's hands and putting it in our own pocket?" And that's what I did. I said, "Okay, we're going to sell the truck, but we're going to provide all the fuel at a fixed rate for seven years." And now, we've stabilized the cost of hydrogen, driven it down low, made it towards cheaper, that it can be cheaper than diesel. And we're taking that 750,000 to $1,000,000 in revenue, in oil and we're bringing it into our own pockets. Because we're not doing oil, we're doing hydrogen. And so we make five times more revenue, on every truck we sell, we get about a million dollars in revenue. So that's why Nikola has done so well.F Geyrhalter:So cool. Unbelievable. And you beat Daimler and Volvo and Tesla in bringing the world's first zero-emissions truck to market, right? I mean, that's one of their claims to fame. And you build your trucks in Ulm in Germany, where I was just visiting family a few months ago. So I'm wondering, the whole "Made in Germany" brand, so to speak, it had a lot of cachet. Was that a big reason to get German engineering or was it mainly logistics and a financial decision, with the first rollout? And of course, as a second part to the question, has the Volkswagen emissions scandal tainted this reputation within the market?Trevor:Oh man, the Volkswagen emissions scandal was like, I hate to ever take advantage of a bad situation, right? But I mean, it was the greatest thing for Nikola that's ever happened because the jackasses-F Geyrhalter:It was fuel to the fire.Trevor:... they lied to the whole world, they deceived everyone. People realized that they were cheaters and the world has now rewarded Tesla and Nikola for both pioneering zero emission around the world. But that's a whole different thing. Why is it built in Ulm? Well, let me break this out real quick. We have two factories. We have one going up in Coolidge Arizona, which is part of Phoenix Arizona. And we have one factory going up in Ulm Germany, right now. And Ulm is spelled U-L-M for all the Americans that don't know how to say Ulm.So the reason why we have Ulm Germany, is because our partner IVECO, we did a massive joint venture with IVECO and this joint venture is going to provide all the battery-electric and hydrogen-electric trucks to all of Europe. So right now, we were the first company to launch the zero-emission truck, we're the first company to do full production of a zero-emission truck. We were first and that's one of the greatest things out there. And it's a full production truck, over 300 miles. There are other people that have the little rinky-dink trucks that go like 150 miles, but I'm talking full 300 miles, pulling a real load.So we're the first company in the world to do it. They're coming out of Ulm Germany. In just a matter of, I would say less than a few months, we'll have the first ones coming out that are hand-built. And by middle to third quarter of next year, full production begins, out of that factory. So in the same time we're building our American factory for our American trucks, we're going to provide both the battery-electric and the hydrogen as well, but they're built to go longer distances, 500 plus miles. So that's kind of how everything's going right now is, yes, we did beat everybody. We beat Daimler, we beat Volvo, we beat Tesla, we beat everybody. And it's a wonderful feeling to be able to do that.F Geyrhalter:Oh, sure. Yeah, it's unbelievable. And even though you're known for your trucks, let's talk about that insanely cool Nikola Badger, which I believe you just made an announcement this morning, when we're recording that it is going to be available for pre-order starting June 29th. So this month, right?Trevor:It is. The Badger's this badass pickup truck. Well, let's just put it this way, the reason why people have not been a fan of electric pickup trucks is because they can't do what a gasoline can do, right? So even with the Cybertruck from Tesla or the Rivian truck, they're very small, they don't go very far. They can't pull a trailer up a 6% grade. They can't handle the continuous load that you can put on a gasoline vehicle. So that's always been the biggest hinderment to a electric truck, was people want a truck that can actually pull a trailer. They can take it to a construction site, they can drive around with their family, they can pull a boat with it or whatever.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, yeah.Trevor:And so we built that. We built the most gorgeous, badass electric, hydrogen pickup truck in the world. And what sets it apart from everything, is that you can order the Badger as a battery-electric truck, that'll give you 3 to 400 miles on its own. And you can also order the Badger as a battery-electric and hydrogen truck, which will give you 600 plus miles on a range.F Geyrhalter:That's insane.Trevor:So the customer can fully spec it, how they want it. And everyone else is like either, "Oh, you'll only get battery." Well, some people need the continuous horsepower or the additional range that hydrogen gives you. And so, you can order either way with a Badger and we're the only ones in the world that offer that.F Geyrhalter:Well, it's 980 torque, I read and 906 horsepower. I mean, that's pretty unreal, right?Trevor:Yeah. It's a very pissed off truck and you have to be careful because it'll come off the ground. So we're having a lot of fun with it. And the best part is here, just in a few days, on June 29th, we're going to start accepting reservations of that. And we're going to show the real truck off here, at the end of this year, at Nikola World 2020. And I'm not talking about some show truck, I'm talking about a metal stamped, beautiful, gorgeous, fully-functioning interior, exterior, power windows, power seats, HVAC, just awesome truck. Every other person out there building trucks, half the features don't even work, because they're just show trucks. This is the real thing.F Geyrhalter:Well, I think you just totally hit the nail on its head, with this entire philosophy around it looking like the next awesome, but a bit more classy and way smarter truck. The design is really, really cool. I went to ArtCenter College of Design, which is a school known for its Transportation Design Alumni, shaping a lot of the industry. There is a lot of talk about tech and engineering with Nikola, but design is also extremely crucial to your company. Can you tell us a little bit about the design philosophy behind the brand and by now, I guess you have what? Six, seven different vehicles in the line?Trevor:So design is everything. I mean, listen, the reason why Apple is Apple, is because they have the greatest designs known to man. Their packaging is incredible, their experience is incredible and their product is stunning. And people don't get this. I mean, it's unbelievable how the automakers make the most ugly-ass vehicles you've ever seen and they expect them to sell. Nikola is, if you were to ever compare it to anything, the gorgeousness of what Apple does with their design and their products is very similar to what Nikola does. Every one of our products, you should see the battles that go on here at Nikola, with the design team and me.If people had a... If they were a fly on the wall, just the stories told would be funny because I come into my design studio and I'll tell my guys, I'm like, "Guys, I won't buy that. That's hideous. And I'll never allow that to be sold. You're going to fix that. And it's got to be something, if it will not sell me, no one will buy it." And it's brutal. You get in, sometimes you have to throw a whole vehicle away because you're like, "It just doesn't work. Nothing works. It doesn't work." And so the Nikola Badger, is probably the most gorgeous truck that's ever been built, in history, in my opinion. And a lot of people agree with that. And that's how all of our product lines are, even our big semi-truck, the Nikola Tre and the Nikola Two, worldwide they're known as the most beautiful semi-trucks ever designed. And imagine that, an American trying to build a European cabover, that's gorgeous.F Geyrhalter:Yeah.Trevor:The Europeans can't even do that sometimes.F Geyrhalter:Yeah. And I think, one thing that is so important to point out is that a lot of these cars, they're like the future cars, right? You look at them and they don't really feel realistic. But what you guys are doing, you perfectly matched that idea of where people are today and what they expect the future to be, rather than these crazy idea cars that you can't even see them on the roads, right? So that's why I think what you guys did with the Badger is so perfect because it fits in today, yet it stands out. But it doesn't look like this awkward, I don't want to mention any of your competitors, but...Trevor:Well look, this is the thing about truck owners. I'll mention them, the people that are going to buy the Tesla Cybertruck are going to be Tesla fanatics. You're going to get a few people outside that are going to buy it, but it doesn't function as a real truck. It doesn't have the features of a real truck. Now, it's cool, when it comes to like, it's pushing the limits, but it's not a real truck. It doesn't have the visibility you get in a truck. It doesn't have the bed that you get in a truck. It doesn't have the ability to put a fifth wheel on it. A real truck needs to do what real trucks do. And so, we had to build a truck that was gorgeous, yet would function as a real truck. And we partnered up with, actually awesome, the Diesel Brothers. And it's really cool because the Diesel Brothers are known as building diesel trucks, right? They can break any truck ever built, they know how to modify every truck known to man and they know what parts fail.So it was interesting, because we got a lot of questions that said, "Why'd you partner up with Diesel Brothers? They do diesel, you guys are all about zero emission." And I'm like, "Yeah, but the Diesel Brothers, they don't stick their head in the sand and say, 'Oh, only diesel's ever going to function.' They came out and they said, 'Look, it is time now, the world's changing. And we want to be part of the greatest transformation of trucking engineering known to man. And it's going away from diesel right now, it's going to electric mobility.'" So we worked with the Diesel Brothers and they've really helped us build this pickup truck, to become a pickup truck that would never fail. And believe me, we're going to have failures, but we got the teams behind us to make sure that this truck is designed as a real truck.F Geyrhalter:And that's the power of partnerships, right? And understanding who to align yourself with, which is a huge, huge thing for entrepreneurs to learn.Trevor:Yes, this one really bothers me because I preach to people about how important it is to find people that are better than you, to work with. And to work with people that do things better than the things that you're not great at. And I went on this podcast and I got hammered by a lot of my competitors' fans. Because they're like, "Oh, Nikola doesn't do shit themselves. They outsource everything." No, that's not true. We do all the really important stuff, like intellectual property controls, software, hardware development, everything else, we do all that. But what we are not good at is building factories, right? And so these guys hammered us. I mean, all their followers, like tens of thousands are like, "Ah, Nikola's a total con job because they don't build their own factory. These guys are not Tesla."And I'm like, "Do you realize how many billions of dollars have been wasted by Tesla, because they didn't work with someone that knew how to build factories and do them..." I'm a big believer in working with people that are better than you. And so, I don't need to be so arrogant to say that I'm better than everyone at everything. I don't need to be better than everyone at everything. I need to be better than my competitors at one thing and I can beat them. And so, I think that's what we do is we're really good at partnerships. We're going to be signing a joint venture for the Nikola Badger with a big OEM and it's going to be sold, serviced, and warrantied through their dealership, all across America. And I get access to that, day one. I don't need to go out and spend $5 billion building our own service network.F Geyrhalter:Yeah.Trevor:So I'm a big believer in partnerships.F Geyrhalter:And that's what happens when you failed a couple of startups and when you sold a couple of companies, right? I mean, that is just that kind of information that you gather throughout the journey. And a lot of people wouldn't understand that immediately. But we talked about you obviously competing head-on with Elon Musk. Tell me, is the Nikola brand name really derived from Tesla's first name, the actual inventor Nikola Tesla? Was that a "Go bold or go home" move of yours, where you said, "If we go in, we go fully in?"Trevor:Yeah. I mean, look, so it was named after the Serbian-Croatian brilliant mastermind that probably had a greater impact on society than anyone else in the world. He created the alternative current, the generator, the turbine, all kinds of things. This guy was the most brilliant electrical engineer known to man. He could power vehicles wirelessly. He could power homes wirelessly from miles away. Even today, we still don't know how he did it all.It was named after the inventor, Nikola Tesla, and it had nothing to do with Elon or Tesla themselves. They didn't even enter my mind when I was making this decision because I was naming it after the inventor. And just like millions of other people that looked up to that inventor, it's to pay tribute to him. Has nothing to do with the Tesla car company at all. It's just cool that Tesla is making one of the biggest impacts in the world for electric mobility in cars. And Nikola is making one of the biggest impacts in the world for Electromobility in trucks. And so, it is kind of cool to think about that, the fact that Nikola and Tesla are both kicking ass and beating everyone around the world.F Geyrhalter:And I noticed that you don't own a nikola.com, which is a very sad website for what appears to be a small electronics design engineering firm. There must have been a conversation to acquire the .com. What is the juicy story behind that domain name and how Nikola doesn't have the .com?Trevor:The name was taken already and the guy had no interest in selling it. So he may sell it one day, it's becoming more and more valuable. I'm sure he'll sell it to someone, it'll probably be someone who hates us and trashes us.F Geyrhalter:But no more interest from your end, you moved on.Trevor:No. Yeah. I mean look, everyone knows it's Nikola Motor. And when they look us up, it's already well established that way. We can see how many people actually type in our name and the wrong name and we might get 1% more that actually go to the right name. I don't care about the domain, it all comes down to the fact that it's Nikola Motor. It's not Nikola, it's Nikola Motor. So I don't know, who knows? If he ever wants to sell it, we talked but he had no desire to, and I'm sure our competitors will probably offer him some stupid amount of money and buy it.F Geyrhalter:Yeah. Or he might ring you now that you're IPO.Trevor:I'll give him one of the first Badgers, one of the most valuable thing. He'll love that.F Geyrhalter:Oh, there you go. Done, you heard it here first. So let's talk about the brand a little bit more. I know we only have 10 more minutes or so, to go. But when my brother and I were kids and we were on those long road trips across Europe, in my parent's tiny little Renault, we played the game on who could identify passing cars by brand, based on their rims and logos. When was that N brand, the brand mark on the badge, the N. When was it crafted for Nikola? I feel like this is a more recent addition to the company's branding, right?Trevor:No, it was actually from day one. The N, it was from day one and it was made to be almost like a superhero logo. So if you were to look at Superman or you were at one of the other ones, you'll notice that it's one letter and usually circled by something. And that's why we went with the Nikola, that's why we designed that was, it's an N with a border around it. And what that does is, you can see it from a mile away and you'll know it's Nikola. It's so distinguishable that nothing ever will confuse it. And that was the idea is, it truly is a superhero. And that's what's cool about it. You'll see it from a mile away and everyone will know it's a Nikola, playing that game in their car, with all their children.F Geyrhalter:That's exactly it. You would have passed the test. What does branding mean to you? I mean, after going through a couple of startups and now having achieved what very few entrepreneurs will ever achieve with the IPO, what does branding mean to your company?Trevor:I'd say there's three or four main pillars of building a company that will last forever and actually make money. Branding and design is one of them. Your team is another one, your team. And then your ability to communicate is one of the four pillars. There's a ton of them, right? But the idea is, your ability to communicate, which is part of branding. Branding and design is everything. People, they want to touch your product, they want to be proud of it. And they're not going to go drop 60 to $100,000 on a pickup truck if they don't think it's the most gorgeous thing that they've ever seen. And people have got to learn, branding and design is everything.It's one reason why I love Audi. Look, there is no better design company, I think in the world than Audi itself. Their team has got their shit down so good, when it comes to branding and design. It's probably the only thing that saved Volkswagen. And that's why you got to be an expert at branding and design. It's everything, it speaks to someone's soul. People have to be proud of representing what you have and that's why the branding and design's so important.F Geyrhalter:Well, and the brand is the soul of your company too, so it touches everything. It touches your company culture, HR, it goes pretty deep. And since your company is based on a strong purpose, on actually changing the world, I'm sure that that had ripple effects from the get-go. I'm sure you don't have a hard time hiring people in your company.Trevor:No.F Geyrhalter:If we think about the DNA of your brand, right? That one word that could describe your brand. I always love to figure out, what can it be, if we just put everything into one concise word? So if you think about Coca Cola, they really try to push the word, happiness, right? If you think about Zappos, it's definitely customer service, right? They're all about service. What is one word that could potentially describe your brand? What could be the brand DNA of your company, if you would have to put it in a funnel and really figure out like, what could be one word? Totally on the spot here. But I know you can do it.Trevor:It would be hard to put it on one word, but I'd say it's something along the lines of emissions, game over.F Geyrhalter:Yeah.Trevor:Everything we stand for, is getting rid of emissions and diesel is dead. It's everything around transformation. I would say probably transformation is really our... Because it transforms everything. It transforms, design, style, the culture, emissions. So if it had to be one word, probably transformation.F Geyrhalter:I think you nailed it nicely. You talked yourself through this one well. Communication, right? That's what it is. What's a final piece of brand advice for founders, as a takeaway? You already dropped a lot of them, but if you have someone listening, who's like, "Man, I would love to get my company to IPO. How do I do it?" Do you want to point them back to the LinkedIn article? Or is there something that is on your mind where you feel like, "Look, this is one thing that entrepreneurs just always, always mess up?"Trevor:No, there's two articles they need to go read. They're more powerful than anything I can say today, because I laid out with written words and they can study it. There's two articles. One's called A random airport encounter. And the other one's called How to get back up when you've lost everything. These two articles are the most powerful articles you'll ever read, in my opinion, as an entrepreneur ever. They're coming from the most painful position I've ever felt in my life, losing everything. It comes from a position of love and happiness and hope and explaining to people what it means to not give up. Everyone fails and you're going to fail hard. And the key is to never, ever quit, no matter how hard or how long it is, you can never, ever give up.And those articles are incredible because they go into detail. The airport one's about a kid who I met in the airport asking me, how he was going to college and he was thinking about becoming an entrepreneur and what advice I had for him. And I gave him a quick five minute thing in the airport. He had no idea who I was either, by the way, he had no clue.F Geyrhalter:That's great.Trevor:I was just talking to this kid. And then later he found out who I was and he sent me an email. And I gave him this written letter back and I posted this letter I gave him. And it's me writing to this kid. And I'm telling you, it's one of the most powerful letters you'll ever read. And I hope it's taught in every business school in the world because it's not like any letter you'll ever read. It's not written by a professor, it's written by pain. It's written by absolute failure and everything I learned in these situations. And then it's also written by hope, about how to get out of it.And that's a real life experience, of this shit storm you're going to go through to build your own company and ever get listed, is you better be ready to have battle wounds and scars all over your body and you better be ready to dedicate 10 years, or you're going to fail. And you're probably going to fail anyways. But then these are ways you can actually get back up and keep going. And eventually, like Mark Cuban says, all you got to do is hit it once. All you got to do is hit a home run one time, that's it and they'll love you, just do it once. It doesn't matter if it takes you five times, all you got to do is do at once.F Geyrhalter:Yeah. What was the most ginormous brand fail that you went through, with Nikola?Trevor:Say that again, I'm sorry. What were you asking?F Geyrhalter:What was the biggest brand fail that you went through, with Nikola, with the actual current-Trevor:What do you mean by brand fail? I haven't used that terminology here. What do you mean by brand fail?F Geyrhalter:Where do you feel like your company did something, from a branding perspective, where it just bombed, like maybe it was a statement that you put out or maybe it was a name you gave a certain vehicle or maybe you just communicated something in a certain way where afterwards you were like, "Oh, Whoa, that totally went the wrong way?"Trevor:Well, luckily we haven't had too many of those moments, because of a lot of the experiences I've had, but I'll tell you the one that made the biggest difference. When we first started out, there was no technology and fuel cell or battery electric yet. It was very, very new. And so we started out as a turbine electric, natural gas, hybrid truck. And that was the only technology available at the time. And that was pushing the limits. And I went to my board and I said, "Guys, the technology fuel cell is now far enough along and batteries, we have to pivot from this low-emission turbine to a fuel cell." And my board shit a brick. Like, "There's no way, we're already far down this road. We can't just pivot." And I said, "You don't know me. I don't care what the repercussions are."And this is something I teach in that letter, when you have a conviction of something, you better listen to yourself. And I said, "It's time to change, and I change it." And they freaked out. I mean, it was almost relationship severing, right? And sure enough, it was the biggest, greatest, smartest move we ever did, going zero emission. Once that technology was far enough along, we could pioneer it. And man, what an impact it made. And it's a single reason why we're here today. So to all the entrepreneurs out there, you better believe in yourself, and if you do, stand by your convictions, no matter what anyone tells you. You're the only one qualified to make those decisions. Don't listen to the people around you, make your own decisions.F Geyrhalter:Amen. I need to let you go, I promised you. So listeners who want to see your line of trucks or get their hands on the most badass zero-emission truck, as you call it, the Nikola Badger, where can they find you?Trevor:They can go to nikolamotor.com, that's where all of our products are. And then, they can also follow me on Twitter, nikolatrevor. And our company Twitter's nikolamotor. I would definitely follow me on Twitter, because you get data way faster than you get it anywhere else. So make sure you follow me on Twitter, @nikolatrevor.F Geyrhalter:Twitter's the new homepage. Awesome. Well, thank you Trevor, for having been on the show, especially after the IPO, this is a crazy week for you. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with my audience. We all really appreciate it.Trevor:Thank you so much. All right. Take care. Bye bye.F Geyrhalter:Awesome. Thanks. Bye Trevor.

Show Summary:   (Full Transcript Below) Let’s board that Blind Abilities airlines jet and head back to the enchanted Hills Camp in Napa Valley, ca., where Jeff caught up with another student of the Woodworking for the Blind (WW4B) workshop. In this interview, we meet Trevor Astrope, a Computer Analyst who works for Morgan Stanley, as the Global Lead for their Private Cloud. Yes, he’s a computer Geek! but Trevor is so much more! [caption id="attachment_4024" align="aligncenter" width="300"]Trevor and Jeff sitting outside the Art Barn at EHC.[/caption] He shares his story of life, his education and his views on blindness. He also shares his passion for building his own guitars and how WW4B helped him achieve the skill-level needed to accomplish this.  Hear of his original plan to use only hand tools to craft his guitars, but how WW4B gave him the knowledge and confidence to incorporate power tools as well. Hear Trevor describe his guitar-building process, from his template to his tools, and listen as his passion shines through!   Be sure to set aside a few short minutes for this fascinating interview with an interesting guest, brought to you by Blind Abilities!   Contact   If you wish to reach out to Trevor, shoot him an email. If you want to learn more about WW4B check them out on the web at www.WW4B.org And you can find out more about Enchanted Hills Camphere on the web. Thanks for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store. Get the Free blind Abilities App on the Google Play Store Full Transcript: Meet Trevor Astrope: Computer Analyst, Woodworker and Guitar Builder, at WW4B and the Enchanted Hills Camp Pete Lane: Hi, folks. Pete Lane here. Welcome to Blind Abilities. Let's go out west again to the Enchanted Hills Camp in Napa Valley, California, sponsored by the San Francisco Lighthouse For The Blind. There, way way up on Veeder Mountain, is where Jeff Thompson connected with his old friend, George Wurtzel to teach a group of blind students the art of woodworking. Pete Lane: Jeff also connected with another one of his woodworking students, Trevor Astrope. Let's meet Trevor and hear about his blindness, his childhood and his passion for computers. Trevor: By six years old, I had optic neuritis, left me with about 10% of vision in one eye and about two percent in one eye. Then, when I was 12, in my good eye, I had the detached retina. My vision went from shadows to light perception to nothing, just over time. I had a teacher's aid group, grade nine, ten and eleven and then in grade twelve, they wanted me to be more independent, so they let her go. While I was in school, I was always into computers. When I went to university, I got a Unix account and taught myself how to use Unix. Unix is an operating system similar, but very different to say, Windows. Most internet servers are running some form of Unix. Pete Lane: And let's hear about Trevor's other passion. His passion for making guitars. Trevor: For me, I wanted to basically have my own custom made guitar. I didn't want a Gibson or Fender logo on it. I wanted my own logo and then I wanted it designed to my specifications. I realized, oh why don't I just try to do this myself because the only way it's gonna be the way I exactly want it, is if I do it. And that's kind of always been my philosophy in life like, if you want something done right, just do it yourself, right? I didn't think blind people could use industrial machinery or even hand tools. I like my fingers, I don't wanna lose them. I'm gonna do this all with hand tools. Trevor: One tool that is really helpful in guitar making is a handheld rotor. So I learned it here and that gave me the confidence to say, "Hey. Yeah, this is easy. I can do this." And it's much more precise and saves a lot of time. Pete Lane: Let's hear Trevor's advice for other members of the blindness community. Trevor: It's always hard starting because people will try to place barriers on you that you may not necessarily have. It's really important to be able prove yourself one way or another. You know that even if it's a short term position or maybe in volunteering, anything that you can sort of prove to people that, "Hey, I can do this." Pete Lane: And now, without further adieu, let's join Jeff Thompson and his guest, Trevor Astrope. Jeff Thompson: Welcome to Blind Abilities, I'm Jeff Thompson. And we're up on top of Veeder Mountain at Enchanted Hills Camp and we're attending the, Woodworkers for the Blind annual event. I believe this is the seventh annual event and this is part of San Francisco Lighthouse for the Blind and Visually Impaired. I'm sitting outside on the deck of the workshop and we're visiting with Trevor Astrope and he's from Montreal. How are you doing, Trevor? Trevor: I'm doing great. Jeff Thompson: Great. Trevor, can you tell what your job duties are, what you do for a living? Trevor: So I work in IT. I work at Morgan Stanley and I work as the global lead for the level three operations team for their private cloud. Jeff Thompson: And you have an interest in woodworking, mostly centered around guitar building? Trevor: Right. So I'm an aspiring guitar builder. I work in my home, primarily in my kitchen/workshop and I'm building guitars primarily by hand with some power tools. So yeah, I come to these workshops to learn new skills that I can take back home with me and apply to my guitar building. Jeff Thompson: That's great. And how did you find about the WW4B Event out here in Enchanted Hills? Trevor: I found out first, by finding WW4B and then, subscribing to that mailing list and joining the group to get access to the website and the articles and then from there, I found out, hey there's a summer workshop. And even before WW4B, I was searching on the internet to find out if there was any kind of blind, woodworking workshops because I did see some YouTube videos where there were people showing videos about teaching blind people woodworking and George [inaudible 00:04:08] one of these people. And I'm like, "Well, how do I get there? How do I find that?" And I searched the internet, I didn't really find anything how to get to these places, but then, I found WW4B and then from there, that's where the workshop is organized through and advertised through and I said, "Ah. That's where I wanna be." Jeff Thompson: And you can find that at, WW4B, and that's the number four, WW4B, the number four, B.org on the web and you can look on there. And if you're interested in woodworking or finding out more about it, that's where you would go. Jeff Thompson: Trevor, you're blind, visually impaired? Trevor: Totally blind. Jeff Thompson: When did this all take place? Trevor: Well when I was six years old, I had optic neuritis, left me with about 10% of vision in one eye and maybe about two percent in one eye, which was just peripheral vision. And then, when I was 12, I had in my good eye, I had the detached retina, which was misdiagnosed and didn't go treated in time and then, my vision went from shadows to light perception to nothing, just over time. Jeff Thompson: So, how was your educational journey with accessibility, alternative techniques? Were you mainstreamed, what was that process like? Trevor: Yeah, so I grew up in a northern community in Canada. I read large print, was a low vision user all through school because I lost my sight when I was in the first grade and I managed pretty well. I had the CCTV enlarger and large print typewriter and that kind of thing because my handwriting was very messy, I was always told teachers couldn't read it. So they always wanted me to type, so I learned to type at a young age. When I was 12 and I lost my sight, I left this town and I moved to Winnipeg, Manitoba and I lived with my grandmother to go to school in the city because there was much more resources there and I can braille my work and then they would translate it. Trevor: And then I started using computers at that point. This is in 1980s around 1985, 1984, 1985 and I started using versabraille, an Apple II computer, then I started doing most of my work with those technologies. And when I eventually went to university, I took the same type of thing, except I had a PC by that point and the newer versabraille and at some point I got, what was the other thing that was called ... Braille and speak. I got a braille and speak for a while too. Jeff Thompson: Do you went to mainstream school through your educational process? Trevor: Right, right. It was all sort of facilitated through the Manitoba Department of Education. They had a special branch that they had consultants that liaison between the school and Manitoba education produced all their own materials. They had their own recording studio and did record books. So any books on the curriculum, they produced. And like I said, I could braille my work, it would ship there and then they'd have people that would translate it and write it all out, in between the braille lines, it would print out what it was and they'd send it back. And there was like maybe two or three day turnaround for that. Jeff Thompson: Oh that's awesome. So did you have a teacher for the visually impaired? Trevor: I had a teacher's aid once I got to high school that did a lot of that work that went back and forth. She learned how to read braille and then she would translate my stuff, she would do tactile drawings, she would do a lot of reading of materials that weren't available or articles or different materials that we had, that was sorta at hawk, she would do that. And she worked part time, so yeah, she worked with me during high school. Through grade nine, ten and eleven and then, grade twelve, they wanted me to be more independent, so they let her go and they wanted me to fend for myself because they knew I was going to university and I wouldn't have those kind of resources around. Jeff Thompson: You had to start advocating and doing it yourself? Trevor: They wanted me to learn to be more independent, so grade twelve I went solo. Jeff Thompson: When you were at university, did you have a student's disabilities office, of sorts? Trevor: Yes, there was. Well, they had a computer center which had PCs with, what was the voice program back then that we used, was it called flipper, something like that? Jeff Thompson: Oh, wow. Trevor: It'd be early 90s I guess. Like I said, I used the versabraille for a long time and then I got a PC. They had this computer room, which had the braille printer and they had a bunch of stuff in there. I went to write my exams there. So the teacher would give the exams, they would put them, usually, on a computer and then I would read them on the computer and answer them on the computer. Jeff Thompson: So, I have a feeling in the years that you were doing this, was it very acceptable or was it standard that people would be going to this computer science fields like you were? Trevor: No, it wasn't. When I first started university, there was a computer programming for the blind course and it was on mainframes. And my first year was the last year of this program because mainframes were being supplanted by PCs, right, and Unix type of systems. So they were a dying system and so, I think what they were finding is that the graduates of these programs were having a difficult time getting employment. I was interested. I used computers all through high school and I did have an aptitude for it, but it was just not something that was open for me because the university I went to ... This is sort of when the Mac and PC were challenging for supremacy and they put their money on the Mac. So all the computer science, computer labs were all Mac and the accessibility just wasn't there. They didn't have voice-over. What was the predecessor to voice-over? I can't remember. Trevor: But anyway, it wasn't something that was really gonna be accessible for me. I took an arts degree, general arts degree in sociology and political science, but meanwhile, while I was studying this, I did have a Unix account and access to the Unix system, which I would access via PC. Then I just taught myself how to use Unix because it just gave me so much more accessibility. Back then it was tell them that you [inaudible] into the library had an interface so I could go and I can search for all the books I needed for my essays and then I can reserve them and then I can just go there and pick them up and they'd have them all ready for me. Then I had a scanner with the [inaudible] software. Jeff Thompson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Trevor: Yeah. And I had that and then I would scan all my books and all my materials. When I first started with tape based stuff, but my first year in university, all my textbooks were, and I guess everybody can relate to this, they were all one edition behind because they would only re-record it if it was more than two editions out or something. So I'd go write a test and some of the times, the questions would be totally different because they rearranged the chapter numbers. And so, I always had to ask students, "What's ..." Because they'd say read chapters, what, two, four and eight, they'd skip around. [inaudible], "Can you tell me what the titles of those are?" And occasionally one of those chapters would just be totally missing. Jeff Thompson: Looking back at the amount of work that you kind of had to do, just before you can even start doing your homework, like scanning, collecting it, making it organized and getting it ready, then you could start reading it or read it as you go, however you did it. And now, you see people today with the handheld device such as the iPhone or the technology that they're utilizing today ... Trevor: It's totally different now. I thought it was amazing when I got access to Unix and I could go online and search books and find them and read newspaper articles online and find some information like that. I thought that was just totally revolutionary because before that, it was like I said, it was books on tape, that's what I was using and that was really archaic. And now, I see, I mean not only can they access books from ... They don't have to even go to a library, you can just download the books and read them. You just can't compare with available now to what was available then and even then, I thought what was available then was so much better than people before me, right, so it's always improving. Jeff Thompson: And that's kind of interesting because you got hooked up with Unix early on, which gave you access to a lot of stuff people were trying to get to that didn't know anything about Unix. You kind of had a jump start. Trevor: Yeah and I did it out of my own self-interest that this gave me access to information I didn't have access to otherwise. I couldn't read a newspaper and I couldn't get newspaper articles. Just day to day stuff, not just with school, I thought this was amazing. So yeah, I took to it and I learned it and it was great. And then when I graduated, I have a general arts degree, which wasn't very helpful for me finding a job, but it was right in the 90s when the internet was exploding and people who knew Unix were high in demand. So I just naturally found myself doing that kind of work, doing some consulting work in the beginning because it'd be small companies that people who you know, know somebody and they say, "Yeah, we wanna get into an internet. We don't know how. How do we get internet?" "Oh, well I know how to do that. I can get you on the internet, no problem. I could set up a mail. You want an email? Really, I'll set you up in a mail server." Trevor: And fax servers were huge in the 90s. I did a lot of work setting up fax servers for small businesses and stuff like that. And now, nobody uses faxes anymore, but that was a big thing then, too. That's what really helped me. Going to university, yeah I got a degree, which I'll say was a useless degree, but it wasn't useless because if I hadn't gone to university, I wouldn't have learned Unix. I would never would have learned that. Jeff Thompson: Can you explain Unix to the listeners? Trevor: So Unix is an operating system. Similar, but very different to say, Windows or macOS, but more similar to macOS because macOS is a graphical interface built on top of Unix. So it's underlined operating system and it's primarily the operating system that runs the internet. So most internet servers are running some form of Unix, most web servers are running on a form of Unix. Nowadays Linux is pretty much dominated the market and there's various different flavors of Linux, but it's all the same thing when it gets right down to it. It's just how it's packaged. Jeff Thompson: Still the Microsoft operating system, Apple operating standard are just interfaces that the general public uses to connect [crosstalk]? Trevor: It's better for the desktop, right? It's a user productivity tool that helps people access software and prevent nicer menus and more usable interfaces. Whereas Unix, you're not concerned about the interface, you're more concerned about the performance and it was just designed for a server architecture. Windows came from the desktop and then they made a server version from that, but Unix is the other way around. It started out as a server operating system and they made a desktop out of it. Jeff Thompson: What suggestions would you have for someone who is transitioning from high school to college to the workplace? What advice would you have for them? Trevor: For me, it was, like I said, I did a lot of consulting work. So if you have a skill and you have something that you can do, that was a good way to start like project base to say. In my field it was easy because it was sort of a task and, "Oh, okay. We wanna be on the internet, how do we do that?" "Okay. This is what you need. This is what you need." And set it up. But sometimes it's good just to ... You have to just get your foot in the door, right, and then you have to prove yourself and then once you have, then you can build upon that. So that's what I've found. It's always hard starting because people will try to place barriers on you that you may not necessarily have. It's really important to be able to prove yourself one way or another. You know that, even if it's a short term position or maybe even volunteering, anything that you can sort of prove to people that, "Hey. I can do this." Jeff Thompson: Great. Trevor, we both have an interest in music and it seems like it goes back to somewhat guitar style music from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and that was a common thing plus the woodworking and then you mentioned that you wanted to build guitar. What got your interest in manufacturing, building your own guitar? Trevor: I collect guitars and what really got me started is, you can buy guitars in China, which I'll say are generally counterfeits. They will make them as a copy of an existing guitar. But for me, I wanted to basically have my own custom made guitar. So, I didn't want a Gibson or Fender logo on it, I wanted my own logo and then, I wanted it designed to my specifications and it was kind of hit or miss. Well, I only bought two guitars. One was really great and one was ... I got a bit ambitious and I tried to really spec it out to a lot of details, but there was a big communication problem between someone who doesn't speak English very well and someone who doesn't speak Chinese at all, right? So, at that point I realized, "Why don't I just try to do this myself because the only way it's gonna be the way I exactly want it, is if I do it." And that's kind of always been my philosophy in life like, you want something done right, just do it yourself, right? Jeff Thompson: And if you can't afford it, you better be able to make it yourself. Trevor: That too, exactly. Jeff Thompson: So what was your first start? How do you get started? First of all, you're talking woodworking, I used to teach woodworking to students and it was like that's an expectation that shocked them like you're gonna operate machinery. Trevor: Right. I had that same thought, myself like I didn't think blind people could use industrial machinery or even hand tools. I thought, this is very dangerous, I like my fingers, I need them every day. I don't wanna lose them. So I thought, my approach in the beginning was, "I gonna do this all with hand tools. I'm doing it as a hobby, this is not an occupation for me. I'm making guitars for myself, not for anybody else. I have time. I don't have a deadline, so I'm gonna learn hand tools and I'm gonna build the guitars just using hand tools." Plus, I had limited space. So I live in an apartment and I work in my kitchen. I didn't wanna make a huge mess. Hand tools are less messy than power tools ... Jeff Thompson: Now, what you call an apartment is like a condo here, you own the space? Trevor: Sure. I got some ... A little more flexibility. Jeff Thompson: So you can choose what you do? Trevor: Yeah, sure. Jeff Thompson: There you go. Trevor: But it's still an apartment style building, it's apartment style layout. So yeah, so I started with the hand tools and I use nothing but hand tools. And I made a guitar body, not that I finished it, but I just wanted to get the experience. I just use cheap lumber. This is not gonna be my masterpiece, this is gonna be my learning, test piece. So I joined two pine, two by eights, I bought one from Home Depot and they cut it up for me and then, I sawed it by hand to the length I wanted. I glued the two pieces together to make it wide enough for a body. So I learned, okay, this is how you edged one, how to make a plane, I had to make each side to be plane straight, so you could join them together without a gap. So I learned these basic techniques that everybody woodworking needs to know. Of course you get machines to do that, I did it by hand. Trevor: And then I used a special saw, called the bow saw, which is not a bow saw you cut tree limbs because if you do an Amazon search that's what you'll get, but it's an old world tool before the band saw existed is what they used these tools for. So it can cut around. It has handles on the side and you can turn the blade to cut at any angle, any curve you want. And I can even cut 90 degrees with it. I had a guitar template. I bought the template, the shape of a guitar was like on a piece plywood that's quarter inch plywood, gives you the two dimensional shape of the guitar. Made another template of that. Using that template, I used a bow saw to cut another one out and then I placed the pine wood that I glued together, in between. So there was a template on the front and a template on the back. I had to use a drill and I drilled dowels to go through, so I can line the back template up with the front template. Then I used that saw to cut the guitar body. Trevor: And it's very rough because you can't go in a smooth motion when you can't see what you're doing. So I'd have to stop to make sure I didn't go too far out or I wasn't going too far in. So you get kind of a wavy pattern along the lines and then I used these small, little palm planes that are very fine and very small and can get into tight spots, just to clean up the edges and I got it all smooth. And I did the same on a guitar neck, I used a router plane, another hand tool, to cut the trust rod channel, a spokeshave for carving the neck. And that's as far as I got before I came here. Last year was my first, Woodworking for the Blind Workshop and that introduced me to tools. Again, I don't have the space for these big tools that hare here, but one tool that is really helpful in guitar making is a router, a handheld router. I had learned how to use that while I was here. I never would have bought it on my own because I wouldn't have known how to use it. Trevor: So I learned it here and then that gave me the confidence to say, "Hey, yeah this is easy. I can do this." So I've been working with that tool now to do a lot of the work cutting the cavities, cutting the shape and it's much more precise and saves a lot of time. And there's still a lot of room for the hand work and carving the neck using spokeshaves and planing to join wood. I use a combination of hand tools and power tools and as I learn more power tools, I'll probably incorporate more of them into my work. Jeff Thompson: That's really cool. Jeff Thompson: It's like you've had drive like whether it was to get more involved with Unix, gaining access to books and then when you wanna learn something, you go to the resource and you went to WW4B.org and ... Trevor: I've always been self-taught like I taught myself Unix and I taught myself woodworking with the hand tools, but there's a line. I wasn't gonna teach myself on tools that could injure myself that I wasn't confident in. That's what this workshop gives me that confidence to learn stuff and say, "Hey, yeah. This is doable and this is easy." There's a limit that I'll go to, I won't endanger myself in my pursuit of knowledge and skills. Otherwise, I like to learn stuff and I like to learn stuff on my own. Part of the discovery of it. Having people show you stuff is great, but to me, it's the discovery, right? Jeff Thompson: The experience is the best teacher, isn't it? Trevor: Yeah. Exactly. Jeff Thompson: We've been talking to, Trevor Astrope, from Montreal, Canada and he's down here at the WW4B annual sessions. You're attending both of them, there's a beginner's and an advance? Trevor: Yeah. I was in the beginner's last year and I still am a beginner, but I've learned some skills that go a little bit beyond the beginner. And I'm not quite advanced yet, but I would become advanced. So I'm gonna hang out with the advanced woodworkers to learn the skills and tips and tricks from them, so I can become an advanced woodworker. Jeff Thompson: Tap their brains? Trevor: Exactly. Jeff Thompson: And that's what it's all about. Getting experience, learning from others and getting a tool in your hand and doing something. So Trevor, if someone wanted to get ahold of you, yeah, how would they do that? Trevor: Probably the easier way is just send email, Trevor@Astrope, A-S-T-R-O-P-E, .C-A. Jeff Thompson: So, we hope you enjoyed this. We're gonna tune out from the top of Veeder Mountain, out here in Napa, California at the Enchanted Hills Camp. Thanks, Trevor. Trevor: Cool. Pete Lane: This concludes Jeff's conversation with Trevor Astrope. We'd like to thank Trevor for taking time out of his day at WW4B to chat with Jeff and we wish him all the luck in the world with his guitar building efforts. And for all of you out there, thanks so much for listening and have a great day. Pete Lane: For more podcasts with the Blindness Perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com. Pete Lane: We're on Twitter. We're on Facebook. Pete Lane: And be sure to check out our free app, in the Apple app store and the Google play store.