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What does it take to keep a family business thriving for generations? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I talk with Jan Southern, a seasoned business advisor who helps family-owned companies build long-term success through structure, trust, and clarity. We explore why so many family firms lose their way by the third generation—and what can be done right now to change that story. Jan shares how documenting processes, empowering people, and aligning goals can turn complexity into confidence. We unpack her “Three Ps” framework—People, Process, and Product—and discuss how strong leadership, accountability, and smart AI adoption keep growth steady and sustainable. If you've ever wondered what separates businesses that fade from those that flourish, this conversation will show you how to turn structure into freedom and process into legacy. Highlights: 00:10 – Why unexpected stories reveal how real businesses grow. 01:39 – How early life in Liberal, Kansas shaped a strong work ethic. 07:51 – What a 10,000 sq ft HQ build-out teaches about operations. 09:35 – How a trading floor was rebuilt in 36 hours and why speed matters. 11:21 – Why acquisitions fail without tribal knowledge and culture continuity. 13:19 – What Ferguson Alliance does for mid-market family businesses. 14:08 – Why many family firms don't make it to the third generation. 17:33 – How the 3 Ps—people, process, product—create durable growth. 20:49 – Why empowerment and clear decision rights prevent costly delays. 33:02 – The step-by-step process mapping approach that builds buy-in. 36:41 – Who should sponsor change and how to align managers. 49:36 – Why process docs and succession planning start on day one. 56:21 – Realistic timelines: six weeks to ninety days and beyond. 58:19 – How referrals expand projects across departments. About the Guest: With over 40 years of experience in the realm of business optimization and cost-effective strategies, Jan is a seasoned professional dedicated to revolutionizing company efficiency. From collaborating with large corporations encompassing over 1,000 employees to small 2-person offices, Jan's expertise lies in meticulously analyzing financials, processes, policies and procedures to drive enhanced performance. Since joining Ferguson Alliance in 2024, Jan has become a Certified Exit Planning Advisor and is currently in the process of certification in Artificial Intelligence Consulting and Implementation, adding to her ability to quickly provide businesses with an assessment and tools that will enhance their prosperity in today's competitive landscape. Jan's forte lies in crafting solutions that align with each client's vision, bolstering their bottom line and staffing dynamics. Adept in setting policies that align with company objectives, Jan is renowned for transforming challenges into opportunities for growth and longevity. With a knack for unraveling inefficiencies and analyzing net income, Jan is a go-to expert for family-owned businesses looking to extend their legacy into future generations. Ways to connect with Jan: Email address : Jan@Ferguson-Alliance.com Phone: 713 851 2229 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jansouthern cepa Website: https://ferguson alliance.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. But the neat thing about it is we don't usually deal with inclusion or diversity. We deal with everything, but that because people come on this podcast to tell their own stories, and that's what we get to do today with Jan southern not necessarily anything profound about inclusion or diversity, but certainly the unexpected. And I'm sure we're going to figure out how that happens and what's unexpected about whatever I got to tell you. Before we started, we were just sitting here telling a few puns back and forth. Oh, well, we could always do that, Jan, well, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Thank you so much. Glad to be here. Any puns before we start?   Jan Southern ** 02:09 No, I think we've had enough of those. I think we did it   Michael Hingson ** 02:11 in, huh? Yes. Well, cool. Well, I want to thank you for being here. Jan has been very actively involved in a lot of things dealing with business and helping people and companies of all sizes, companies of all sizes. I don't know about people of all sizes, but companies of all sizes in terms of becoming more effective and being well, I'll just use the term resilient, but we'll get into that. But right now, let's talk about the early Jan. Tell us about Jan growing up and all that sort of stuff that's always fun to start with.   Jan Southern ** 02:50 Yes, I grew up in Liberal Kansas, which is a small town just north of the Oklahoma border and a little bit east of New Mexico kind of down in that little Four Corners area. And I grew up in the time when we could leave our house in the morning on the weekends and come home just before dusk at night, and our parents didn't panic, you know. So it was a good it was a good time growing up. I i lived right across the street from the junior high and high school, so I had a hugely long walk to work, I mean,   Michael Hingson ** 03:28 to school,   Jan Southern ** 03:30 yeah, and so, you know, was a, was a cheerleader in high school, and went to college, then at Oklahoma State, and graduated from there, and here I am in the work world. I've been working since I was about 20 years old, and I'd hate to tell you how many years that's been.   Michael Hingson ** 03:51 You can if you want. I won't tell   03:55 nobody will know.   Michael Hingson ** 03:57 Good point. Well, I know it's been a long time I read your bio, so I know, but that's okay. Well, so when you What did you major in in college psychology? Ah, okay. And did you find a bachelor's degree or just bachelor's   Jan Southern ** 04:16 I did not. I got an Mrs. Degree and had two wonderful children and grew up, they've grown up and to become very fine young men with kids of their own. So I have four grandchildren and one great grandchild, so   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 Wowie Zowie, yeah, that's pretty cool. So when you left college after graduating, what did you do?   Jan Southern ** 04:40 I first went to work in a bank. My ex husband was in pharmacy school at Oklahoma, State University of Oklahoma, and so I went to work in a bank. I was the working wife while he went to pharmacy school. And went to work in a bank, and years later, became a bank consultant. So we we lived in Norman, Oklahoma until he was out of school and and as I began having children during our marriage, I went to work for a pediatrician, which was very convenient when you're trying to take care of kids when they're young.   Michael Hingson ** 05:23 Yeah, and what did you What did you do for a pediatrician?   Jan Southern ** 05:27 I was, I was her receptionist, and typed medical charts, so I learned a lot about medicine. Was very she was head of of pediatrics at a local hospital, and also taught at the university. And so I got a great education and health and well being of kids. It was, it was a great job.   Michael Hingson ** 05:51 My my sister in law had her first child while still in high school, and ended up having to go to work. She went to work for Kaiser Permanente as a medical transcriber, but she really worked her way up. She went to college, got a nursing degree, and so on, and she became a nurse. And eventually, when she Well, she didn't retire, but her last job on the medical side was she managed seven wards, and also had been very involved in the critical care unit. Was a nurse in the CCU for a number of years. Then she was tasked. She went to the profit making side of Kaiser, as it were, and she was tasked with bringing paperless charts into Kaiser. She was the nurse involved in the team that did that. So she came a long way from being a medical transcriber.   Jan Southern ** 06:51 Well, she came a long way from being a single mom in high school. That's a great story of success.   Michael Hingson ** 06:56 Well, and she wasn't totally a single mom. She she and the guy did marry, but eventually they they did divorce because he wasn't as committed as he should be to one person, if it were,   Speaker 1 ** 07:10 that's a familiar story. And he also drank and eventually died of cirrhosis of the liver. Oh, that's too bad. Yeah, that's always sad, but, you know, but, but she coped, and her her kids cope. So it works out okay. So you went to work for a pediatrician, and then what did you do?   Jan Southern ** 07:31 Well, after my husband, after he graduated, was transferred to Dallas, and I went to work for a company gardener, Denver company at the time, they've been since purchased by another company. And was because of my experience in banking prior to the pediatrician, I went to work in their corporate cash management division, and I really enjoyed that I was in their corporate cash management for their worldwide division, and was there for about four years, and really enjoyed it. One of my most exciting things was they were moving their headquarters from Quincy, Illinois down to Dallas. And so I had been hired. But since they were not yet in Dallas, I worked with a gentleman who was in charge of putting together their corporate offices. And so we made all the arrangements. As far as we had a got a 10,000 square foot blank space when we started. And our job was to get every desk, every chair, every pen and pencil. And so when somebody moved from Quincy, Illinois, they moved in and they had their desk all set up. Their cuticles were cubicles were ready to go and and they were they could hit the ground running day one, so that,   Michael Hingson ** 09:02 so you, you clearly really got into dealing with organization, I would would say, then, wouldn't, didn't you?   Jan Southern ** 09:11 Yes, yes, that was my, probably my first exposure to to the corporate world and learning exactly how things could be more efficient, more cost effective. And I really enjoyed working for that company.   Michael Hingson ** 09:30 I remember, after September 11, we worked to provide the technology that we were selling, but we provided technology to Wall Street firms so they could recover their data and get set up again to be able to open the stock exchange and all the trading floors on the 17th of September. So the next Monday. And it was amazing, one of the companies was, I think it was Morgan Stanley. Finally and they had to go find new office space, because their office space in the World Trade Center was, needless to say, gone. They found a building in Jersey City that had a floor, they said, about the size of a football field, and from Friday night to Sunday afternoon, they said it took about 36 hours. They brought in computers, including IBM, taking computers from some of their own people, and just bringing them into to Morgan Stanley and other things, including some of the technology that we provided. And within 36 hours, they had completely reconstructed a trading floor. That's amazing. It was, it was absolutely amazing to see that. And you know, for everyone, it was pretty crazy, but Wall Street opened on the 17th and and continued to survive.   Jan Southern ** 10:57 That's a great story.   Michael Hingson ** 10:59 So what did you do? So you did this, this work with the 10,000 square foot space and other things like that. And then what?   Jan Southern ** 11:08 Well, once, once everyone moved into the space in Dallas. Then I began my work in their in their corporate cash management area. And from there, my next job was working in a bank when my my husband, then was transferred back to Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I went back to work in banking. And from that bank, I was there about three to four years, and I was hired then by John Floyd as a as a consultant for banks and credit unions, and I was with that company for 42 years. My gosh, I know that's unusual these days, but I really enjoyed what I did. We did re engineering work and cost effectiveness and banks and credit unions for those 42 years. And so that was where I really cut my teeth on process improvement and continuous improvement, and still in that industry. But their company was bought by a an equity firm. And of course, when that happens, they like to make changes and and bring in their own folks. So those of us who had been there since day one were no longer there.   Michael Hingson ** 12:26 When did that happen?   Jan Southern ** 12:27 That was in 2022   Michael Hingson ** 12:32 so it's interesting that companies do that they always want to bring in their own people. And at least from my perspective, it seems to me that they forget that they lose all the tribal knowledge that people who have been working there have that made the company successful   Jan Southern ** 12:51 Absolutely. So I guess they're still doing well, and they've done well for themselves afterwards, and but, you know, they do, they lose all the knowledge, they lose all of the continuity with the clients. And it's sad that they do that, but that's very, very common.   Michael Hingson ** 13:13 Yeah, I know I worked for a company that was bought by Xerox, and all the company wanted was our technology. All Xerox wanted was the technology. And they lost all of the knowledge that all the people with sales experience and other kinds of experiences brought, because they terminated all of us when the company was fully in the Xerox realm of influence.   Jan Southern ** 13:39 So you know what I went through? Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 13:42 Well, what did you do after you left that company? After you left John Floyd,   Jan Southern ** 13:47 I left John Floyd, I was under a I was under a non compete, so I kind of knocked around for a couple of years. I was of age where I could have retired, but I wasn't ready to. So then I found Ferguson Alliance, and I'm now a business advisor for family owned businesses, and so I've been with Ferguson just over a year, and doing the same type of work that I did before. In addition to that, I have become a certified Exit Planning advisor, so that I can do that type of work as well. So that's that's my story in a nutshell. As far as employment,   Michael Hingson ** 14:26 what is Ferguson Alliance?   Jan Southern ** 14:29 Ferguson Alliance, we are business advisors for family owned businesses. And the perception is that a family owned business is going to be a small business, but there are over 500,000 family owned businesses in the United States. Our market is the middle market, from maybe 50 employees up to 1000 20 million in revenues, up to, you know, the sky's the limit, and so we do. Do a lot of work as far as whatever can help a family owned business become more prosperous and survive into future generations. It's a sad statistic that most family owned businesses don't survive into the third generation.   Michael Hingson ** 15:16 Why is that?   Jan Southern ** 15:19 I think because they the first the first generation works themselves, their fingers to the bone to get their their business off the ground, and they get successful, and their offspring often enjoy, if you will, the fruits of the labors of their parents and so many of them, once they've gone to college, they don't have an interest in joining the firm, and so they go on and succeed on their own. And then their children, of course, follow the same course from from their work. And so that's really, I think, the primary reason, and also the the founders of the businesses have a tendency to let that happen, I think. And so our coaching programs try to avoid that and help them to bring in the second and third generations so that they can, you know, they can carry on a legacy of their parents or the founders.   Michael Hingson ** 16:28 So what do you do, and what kinds of initiatives do you take to extend the longevity of a family owned business then,   Jan Southern ** 16:39 well, the first thing is that that Rob, who's our founder of our family owned business, does a lot of executive coaching and helps the helps the people who are within the business, be it the founder or being at their second or third generations, and he'll help with coaching them as to how to, hey, get past the family dynamics. Everybody has their own business dynamics. And then you add on top of that, the family dynamics, in addition to just the normal everyday succession of a business. And so we help them to go through those types of challenges, if you will. They're not always a challenge, but sometimes, if there are challenges, Rob's coaching will take them through that and help them to develop a succession plan that also includes a document that says that that governance plan as to how their family business will be governed, in addition to just a simple succession plan, and my role in a lot of that is to make sure that their business is ready to prosper too. You know that their their assessment of as far as whether they're profitable, whether they are their processes are in place, etc, but one of the primary things that we do is to help them make certain that that if they don't want to survive into future generations, that we help them to prepare to either pass it along to a family member or pass it along to someone who's a non family member, right?   Michael Hingson ** 18:34 So I've heard you mentioned the 3p that are involved in extending longevity. Tell me about that. What are the three P's?   Jan Southern ** 18:41 Well, the first p is your people. You know, if you don't take care of your people, be they family members or non family members, then you're not going to be very successful. So making certain that you have a system in place, have a culture in place that takes care of your people. To us, is very key. Once you make sure that your people are in a culture of continuous improvement and have good, solid foundation. In that regard, you need to make sure that your processes are good. That's the second P that that you have to have your processes all documented, that you've authorized your people to make decisions that they don't always have to go to somebody else. If you're a person in the company and you recognize that something's broken, then you need to have empowerment so that your people can make decisions and not always have to get permission from someone else to make certain that those processes continuously are approved improved. That's how to you. Could have became so successful is they installed a product. They called it, I say, a product. They installed a culture. They called it kaizen. And so Kaizen was simply just continuous improvement, where, if you were doing a process and you ask yourself, why did I do it this way? Isn't there a better way? Then, you know, you're empowered to find a better way and to make sure that that that you can make that decision, as long as it fits in with the culture of the company. Then the third P is product. You know, you've got to have a product that people want. I know that you've seen a lot of companies fail because they're pushing a product that nobody wants. And so you make certain that your products are good, your products are good, high quality, and that you can deliver them in the way that you promise. And so those are really the 3p I'd like to go back to process and just kind of one of the things, as you know, we had some horrendous flooding here in Texas recently, and one of the things that happened during that, and not that it was a cause of it, but just one of the things that exacerbated the situation, is someone called to say, Please, we need help. There's flooding going on. It was one of their first responders had recognized that there was a tragic situation unfolding, and when he called into their system to give alerts, someone says, Well, I'm going to have to get approval from my supervisor, with the approval didn't come in time. So what's behind that? We don't know, but that's just a critical point as to why you should empower your people to make decisions when, when it's necessary.   Michael Hingson ** 21:56 I'm sure, in its own way, there was some of that with all the big fires out here in California back in January, although part of the problem with those is that aircraft couldn't fly for 36 hours because the winds were so heavy that there was just no way that the aircraft could fly. But you got to wonder along the way, since they are talking about the fact that the electric companies Southern California, Edison had a fair amount to do with probably a lot a number of the fires igniting and so on, one can only wonder what might have happened if somebody had made different decisions to better prepare and do things like coating the wires so that if they touch, they wouldn't spark and so on that they didn't do. And, you know, I don't know, but one can only wonder.   Jan Southern ** 22:53 It's hard to know, you know, and in our situation, would it have made any difference had that person been able to make a decision on her own? Yeah, I was moving so rapidly, it might not have made any any difference at all, but you just have to wonder, like you said,   Michael Hingson ** 23:10 yeah, there's no way to, at this point, really know and understand, but nevertheless, it is hopefully something that people learn about for the future, I heard that they're now starting to coat wires, and so hopefully that will prevent a lot, prevent a lot of the sparking and so on. I'd always thought about they ought to put everything underground, but coating wire. If they can do that and do it effectively, would probably work as well. And that's, I would think, a lot cheaper than trying to put the whole power grid underground.   Jan Southern ** 23:51 I would think so we did when I was with my prior company. We did a project where they were burying, they were putting everything underground, and Burlington Vermont, and it was incredible what it takes to do that. I mean, you just, we on the outside, just don't realize, you know, there's a room that's like 10 by six underground that carries all of their equipment and things necessary to do that. And I never realized how, how costly and how difficult it was to bury everything. We just have the impression that, well, they just bury this stuff underground, and that's all. That's all it takes. But it's a huge, huge undertaking in order to do that   Michael Hingson ** 24:36 well. And it's not just the equipment, it's all the wires, and that's hundreds and of miles and 1000s of miles of cable that has to be buried underground, and that gets to be a real challenge.   Jan Southern ** 24:47 Oh, exactly, exactly. So another story about cables. We were working in West Texas one time on a project, and we're watching them stretch the. Wiring. They were doing some internet provisioning for West Texas, which was woefully short on in that regard, and they were stringing the wire using helicopters. It was fascinating, and the only reason we saw that is it was along the roadways when we were traveling from West Texas, back into San Antonio, where flights were coming in and out of so that was interesting to watch.   Michael Hingson ** 25:28 Yeah, yeah. People get pretty creative. Well, you know, thinking back a little bit, John Floyd must have been doing something right to keep you around for 42 years.   Jan Southern ** 25:40 Yes, they did. They were a fabulous country company and still going strong. I think he opened in 1981 it's called advantage. Now, it's not John Floyd, but Right, that was a family owned business. That's where I got to cut my teeth on the dynamics of a family owned business and how they should work and how and his niece is one of the people that's still with the company. Whether, now that they're owned by someone else, whether she'll be able to remain as they go into different elements, is, is another question. But yeah, they were, they were great.   Michael Hingson ** 26:20 How many companies, going back to the things we were talking about earlier, how many companies when they're when they buy out another company, or they're bought out by another company, how many of those companies generally do succeed and continue to grow? Do you have any statistics, or do more tend not to than do? Or   Jan Southern ** 26:40 I think that more tend to survive. They tend to survive, though, with a different culture, I guess you would say they they don't retain the culture that they had before. I don't have any firm statistics on that, because we don't really deal with that that much, but I don't they tend to survive with it, with a the culture of the newer company, if they fold them in, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 27:15 Well, and the reality is to be fair, evolution always takes place. So the John Floyd and say, 2022 wasn't the same as the John Floyd company in 1981   Jan Southern ** 27:31 not at all. No, exactly, not at all.   Michael Hingson ** 27:34 So it did evolve, and it did grow. And so hopefully, when that company was absorbed elsewhere and with other companies, they they do something to continue to be successful, and I but I think that's good. I know that with Xerox, when it bought Kurzweil, who I worked for, they were also growing a lot and so on. The only thing is that their stock started to drop. I think that there were a number of things. They became less visionary, I think is probably the best way to put it, and they had more competition from other companies developing and providing copiers and other things like that. But they just became less visionary. And so the result was that they didn't grow as much as probably they should have.   Jan Southern ** 28:28 I think that happens a lot. Sometimes, if you don't have a culture of continuous improvement and continuous innovation, which maybe they didn't, I'm not that familiar with how they move forward, then you get left behind. You know, I'm I'm in the process right now, becoming certified in artificial intelligent in my old age. And the point that's made, not by the company necessarily that I'm studying with, but by many others, is there's going to be two different kinds of companies in the future. There's going to be those who have adopted AI and those who used to be in business. And I think that's probably fair.   Michael Hingson ** 29:13 I think it is. And I also we talked with a person on this podcast about a year ago, or not quite a year ago, but, but he said, AI will not replace anyone's jobs. People will replace people's jobs with AI, but they shouldn't. They shouldn't eliminate anyone from the workforce. And we ended up having this discussion about autonomous vehicles. And the example that he gave is, right now we have companies that are shippers, and they drive product across the country, and what will happen to the drivers when the driving process becomes autonomous and you have self driving vehicles, driving. Across country. And his point was, what they should do, what people should consider doing is not eliminating the drivers, but while the machine is doing the driving, find and give additional or other tasks to the drivers to do so they can continue to be contributors and become more efficient and help the company become more efficient, because now you've got people to do other things than what they were used to doing, but there are other things that AI won't be able to do. And I thought that was pretty fascinating,   Jan Southern ** 30:34 exactly. Well, my my nephew is a long haul truck driver. He owns a company, and you know, nothing the AI will never be able to observe everything that's going on around the trucking and and you know, there's also the some of the things that that driver can do is those observations, plus they're Going to need people who are going to program those trucks as they are making their way across the country, and so I'm totally in agreement with what your friend said, or your you know, your guests had to say that many other things,   Michael Hingson ** 31:15 yeah, and it isn't necessarily even relating to driving, but there are certainly other things that they could be doing to continue to be efficient and effective, and no matter how good the autonomous driving capabilities are, it only takes that one time when for whatever reason, the intelligence can't do it, that it's good To have a driver available to to to to help. And I do believe that we're going to see the time when autonomous vehicles will be able to do a great job, and they will be able to observe most of all that stuff that goes on around them. But there's going to be that one time and that that happens. I mean, even with drivers in a vehicle, there's that one time when maybe something happens and a driver can't continue. So what happens? Well, the vehicle crashes, or there's another person to take over. That's why we have at least two pilots and airplanes and so on. So right, exactly aspects of it,   Jan Southern ** 32:21 I think so I can remember when I was in grade school, they showed us a film as to what someone's vision of the country was, and part of that was autonomous driving, you know. And so it was, it was interesting that we're living in a time where we're beginning to see that, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 32:41 we're on the cusp, and it's going to come. It's not going to happen overnight, but it will happen, and we're going to find that vehicles will be able to drive themselves. But there's still much more to it than that, and we shouldn't be in too big of a hurry, although some so called profit making. People may decide that's not true, to their eventual chagrin, but we shouldn't be too quick to replace people with technology totally   Jan Southern ** 33:14 Exactly. We have cars in I think it's Domino's Pizza. I'm not sure which pizza company, but they have autonomous cars driving, and they're cooking the pizza in the back oven of the car while, you know, while it's driving to your location, yeah, but there's somebody in the car who gets out of the car and brings the pizza to my door.   Michael Hingson ** 33:41 There's been some discussion about having drones fly the pizza to you. Well, you know, we'll see,   Jan Southern ** 33:50 right? We'll see how that goes. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 33:53 I haven't heard that. That one is really, pardon the pun, flown well yet. But, you know, we'll see. So when you start a process, improvement process program, what are some of the first steps that you initiate to bring that about? Well, the first   Jan Southern ** 34:11 thing that we do, once we've got agreement with their leadership, then we have a meeting with the people who will be involved, who will be impacted, and we tell them all about what's happening, what's going to happen, and make certain that they're in full understanding. And you know, the first thing that you ever hear when you're saying that you're going to be doing a re engineering or process improvement is they think, Oh, you're just going to come in and tell me to reduce my staff, and that's the way I'm going to be more successful. We don't look at it that way at all. We look at it in that you need to be right. Have your staff being the right size, and so in in many cases, in my past. I we've added staff. We've told them, you're under staffed, but the first thing we do is hold that meeting, make certain that they're all in agreement with what's going to happen, explain to them how it's going to happen, and then the next step is that once management has decided who our counterparts will be within the company. Who's going to be working with us to introduce us to their staff members is we sit down with their staff members and we ask them questions. You know, what do you do? How do you do it? What do you Did someone bring it to you. Are you second in line or next in line for some task? And then once you finish with it, what happens to it? Do you give someone else? Is a report produced? Etc. And so once we've answered all of those questions, we do a little a mapping of the process. And once you map that process, then you take it back to the people who actually perform the process, and you ask them, Did I get this right? I heard you say, this? Is this a true depiction of what's happening? And so we make sure that they don't do four steps. And they told us steps number one and three, so that then, once we've mapped that out, that gives us an idea of two of how can things be combined? Can they be combined? Should you be doing what you're doing here? Is there a more efficient or cost effective way of doing it? And we make our recommendations based on that for each process that we're reviewing. Sometimes there's one or two good processes in an area that we're looking at. Sometimes there are hundreds. And so that's that's the basic process. And then once they've said yes, that is correct, then we make our recommendations. We take it back to their management, and hopefully they will include the people who actually are performing the actions. And we make our recommendations to make changes if, if, if it's correct, maybe they don't need to make any changes. Maybe everything is is very, very perfect the way it is. But in most cases, they brought us in because it's not and they've recognized it's not. So then once they've said, yes, we want to do this, then we help them to implement.   Michael Hingson ** 37:44 Who usually starts this process, that is, who brings you in?   Jan Southern ** 37:48 Generally, it is going to be, depending upon the size of the company, but in most cases, it's going to be the CEO. Sometimes it's the Chief Operating Officer. Sometimes in a very large company, it may be a department manager, you know, someone who has the authority to bring us in. But generally, I would say that probably 90% of our projects, it's at the C   Michael Hingson ** 38:19 level office. So then, based on everything that you're you're discussing, probably that also means that there has to be some time taken to convince management below the CEO or CEO or a department head. You've got to convince the rest of management that this is going to be a good thing and that you have their best interest at heart.   Jan Southern ** 38:43 That is correct, and that's primarily the reason that we have for our initial meeting. We ask whoever is the contract signer to attend that meeting and be a part of the discussion to help to ward off any objections, and then to really bring these people along if they are objecting. And for that very reason, even though they may still be objecting, we involve them in the implementation, so an implementation of a of a recommendation has to improve, has to include the validation. So we don't do the work, but we sit alongside the people who are doing the implementation and guide them through the process, and then it's really up to them to report back. Is it working as intended? If it's not, what needs to be changed, what might improve, what we thought would be a good recommendation, and we work with them to make certain that everything works for them. Right? And by the end of that, if they've been the tester, they've been the one who's approved steps along the way, we generally find that they're on board because they're the it's now. They're now the owners of the process. And when they have ownership on something that they've implemented. It's amazing how much more resilient they they think that the process becomes, and now it's their process and not ours.   Michael Hingson ** 40:32 Do you find most often that when you're working with a number of people in a company that most of them realize that there need to be some changes, or something needs to be improved to make the whole company work better. Or do you find sometimes there's just great resistance, and people say no, there's just no way anything is bad.   Jan Southern ** 40:53 Here we find that 90% of the time, and I'm just pulling that percentage out of the air, I would say they know, they know it needs to be changed. And the ones typically, not always, but typically, the ones where you find the greatest resistance are the ones who know it's broken, but they just don't want to change. You know, there are some people who don't want to change no matter what, or they feel threatened that. They feel like that a new and improved process might take their place. You know, might replace them. And that's typically not the case. It's typically not the case at all, that they're not replaced by it. Their process is improved, and they find that they can be much more productive. But the the ones who are like I call them the great resistors, usually don't survive the process either. They are. They generally let themselves go,   Michael Hingson ** 42:01 if you will, more ego than working for the company.   Jan Southern ** 42:05 Yes, exactly, you know, it's kind of like my mom, you know, and it they own the process as it was. We used to laugh and call this person Louise, you know, Louise has said, Well, we've always done it that way. You know, that's probably the best reason 20 years in not to continue to do it same way.   Michael Hingson ** 42:34 We talked earlier about John Floyd and evolution. And that makes perfect sense. Exactly what's one of the most important things that you have to do to prepare to become involved in preparing for a process, improvement project? I think   Jan Southern ** 42:52 the most important thing there's two very important things. One is to understand their culture, to know how their culture is today, so that you know kind of which direction you need to take them, if they're not in a continuous improvement environment, then you need to lead them in that direction if they're already there and they just don't understand what needs to be done. There's two different scenarios, but the first thing you need to do is understand the culture. The second thing that you need to do, other than the culture, is understand their their business. You need to know what they do. Of course, you can't know from the outside how they do it, but you need to know that, for instance, if it's an we're working with a company that cleans oil tanks and removes toxins and foul lines from oil and gas industry. And so if you don't understand at all what they do, it's hard to help them through the processes that they need to go through. And so just learning, in general, what their technology, what their business is about. If you walk in there and haven't done that, you're just blowing smoke. In my mind, you know, I do a lot of research on the technologies that they use, or their company in general. I look at their website, I you know, look at their LinkedIn, their social media and so. And then we request information from them in advance of doing a project, so that we know what their org structure looks like. And I think those things are critical before you walk in the door to really understand their business in general.   Michael Hingson ** 44:53 Yeah, and that, by doing that, you also tend to. To gain a lot of credibility, because you come in and demonstrate that you do understand what they're doing, and people respond well to that, I would think   Jan Southern ** 45:10 they do. You know, one of our most interesting projects in my past was the electric company that I mentioned. There was an electric company in Burlington, Vermont that did their own electric generation. We've never looked at anything like that. We're a bank consultant, and so we learned all about how they generated energy with wood chips and the, you know, the different things. And, you know, there were many days that I was out watching the wood chips fall out of a train and into their buckets, where they then transferred them to a yard where they moved the stuff around all the time. So, you know, it was, it's very interesting what you learn along the way. But I had done my homework, and I knew kind of what they did and not how they did it in individual aspects of their own processes, but I understood their industry. And so it was, you do walk in with some credibility, otherwise they're looking at you like, well, what does this person know about my job?   Michael Hingson ** 46:20 And at the same time, have you ever been involved in a situation where you did learn about the company you you went in with some knowledge, you started working with the company, and you made a suggestion about changing a process or doing something that no one had thought of, and it just clicked, and everybody loved it when they thought about it,   Jan Southern ** 46:42 yes, yes, exactly. And probably that electric company was one of those such things. You know, when they hired us, they they told us. We said, We don't know anything about your business. And they said, Good, we don't want you to come in with any preconceived ideas. And so some of the recommendations we made to them. They were, it's kind of like an aha moment. You know, they look at you like, Oh my gosh. I've never thought of that, you know, the same I would say in in banking and in family businesses, you know, they just, they've never thought about doing things in a certain way.   Michael Hingson ** 47:20 Can you tell us a story about one of those times?   Jan Southern ** 47:24 Yes, I would say that if you're, if you're talking about, let's talk about something in the banking industry, where they are. I was working in a bank, and you, you go in, and this was in the days before we had all of the ways to store things electronically. And so they were having a difficult time in keeping all of their documents and in place and knowing when to, you know, put them in a destruction pile and when not to. And so I would say that they had an aha moment when I said, Okay, let's do this. Let's get a bunch of the little colored dots, and you have big dots and small dots. And I said, everything that you put away for 1990 for instance, then you put on a purple dot. And then for January, you have 12 different colors of the little dots that you put in the middle of them. And you can use those things to determine that everything that has a purple dot and little yellow.in the middle of that one, you know that that needs to be destructed. I think in that case, it was seven years, seven years from now, you know that you need to pull that one off the shelf and put it into the pile to be destructed. And they said, we've never thought of anything. It was like I had told him that, you know, the world was going to be struck, to be gone, to begin tomorrow. Yeah, it was so simple to me, but it was something that they had never, ever thought of, and it solved. They had something like five warehouses of stuff, most of which needed to have been destroyed years before, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 49:21 but still they weren't sure what, and so you gave them a mechanism to do that,   Jan Southern ** 49:27 right? Of course, that's all gone out the window today. You don't have to do all that manual stuff anymore. You're just, you know, I'd say another example of that was people who were when we began the system of digitizing the files, especially loan files in a bank. And this would hold true today as well, in that once you start on a project to digitize the files, there's a tendency to take the old. Files first and digitize those. Well, when you do that, before you get to the end of it, if you have a large project, you don't need those files anymore. So you know, our recommendation is start with your latest. You know, anything that needs to be archived, start with the newest, because by the time that you finish your project, some of those old files you won't even need to digitize, just shred them. Yeah, you know, it's, it's just little simple things like that that can make all the difference.   Michael Hingson ** 50:32 When should a family business start documenting processes? I think I know that's what I thought you'd say,   Jan Southern ** 50:40 yes, yes, that is something that is near and dear to my heart. Is that I would even recommend that you maybe do it before you open your doors, if potential is there, so that the day you open your business, you need to start with your documenting your processes, and you need to start on your succession planning. You know, those are the days that once you really start working, you're not going to have time. You know, you're going to be busy working every day. You're you're going to be busy servicing your customers, and that always gets pushed to the back when you start to document something, and so that's the time do it when you first open your doors.   Michael Hingson ** 51:29 So when we talk about processes, maybe it's a fair question to ask, maybe not. But what are we really talking about when we talk about processes and documenting processes? What are the processes?   Jan Southern ** 51:41 Well, the processes are the things that you do every day. Let's take as an example, just when you set up your your files within your SharePoint, or within your computer, if you don't use SharePoint, your Google files, how you set those up, a process could also be during your accounting, what's the process that you go through to get a invoice approved? You know, when the invoice comes in from the vendor, what do you do with it? You know, who has to approve it? Are there dollar amounts that you have to have approvals for? Or can some people just take in a smaller invoice and pay it without any any approvals? We like to see there be a process where it's approved before you get the invoice from the customer, where it's been approved at the time of the order. And that way it can be processed more more quickly on the backside, to just make sure that it says what the purchase order if you use purchase orders or see what your agreement was. So it's the it's the workflow. There's something that triggers an action, and then, once gets triggered, then what takes place? What's next, what's the next steps? And you just go through each one of the things that has to happen for that invoice to get paid, and the check or wire transfer, or or whatever you use as a payment methodology for it to go out the door. And so, you know what you what you do is you start, there's something that triggers it, and then there's a goal for the end, and then you fill in in the center,   Michael Hingson ** 53:38 and it's, it's, it's a fascinating I hate to use the word process to to listen to all of this, but it makes perfect sense that you should be documenting right from the outset about everything that you do, because it also means that you're establishing a plan so that everyone knows exactly what the expectations are and exactly what it is that needs to be done every step of the way,   Jan Southern ** 54:07 right and and one of the primary reasons for that is we can't anticipate life. You know, maybe our favorite person, Louise, is the only one who's ever done, let's say, you know, payroll processing, or something of that sort. And if something happens and Louise isn't able to come in tomorrow, who's going to do it? You know, without a map, a road map, as to the steps that need to be taken, how's that going to take place? And so that's that's really the critical importance. And when you're writing those processes and procedures, you need to make them so that anybody can walk in off the street, if necessary, and do what Louise was doing and have it done. Properly.   Michael Hingson ** 55:00 Of course, as we know, Louise is just a big complainer anyway. That's right, you said, yeah. Well, once you've made recommendations, and let's say they're put in place, then what do you do to continue supporting a business?   Jan Southern ** 55:20 We check in with them periodically, whatever is appropriate for them and and for the procedures that are there, we make sure that it's working for them, that they're being as prosperous as they want to be, and that our recommendations are working for them. Hopefully they'll allow us to come back in and and most do, and make sure that what we recommended is right and in is working for them, and if so, we make little tweaks with their approvals. And maybe new technology has come in, maybe they've installed a new system. And so then we help them to incorporate our prior recommendations into whatever new they have. And so we try to support them on an ongoing basis, if they're willing to do that, which we have many clients. I think Rob has clients he's been with for ever, since he opened his doors 15 years ago. So   Michael Hingson ** 56:19 of course, the other side of that is, I would assume sometimes you work with companies, you've helped them deal with processes and so on, and then you come back in and you know about technology that that they don't know. And I would assume then that you suggest that, and hopefully they see the value of listening to your wisdom.   Jan Southern ** 56:41 Absolutely, we find that a lot. We also if they've discovered a technology on their own, but need help with recommendations, as far as implementation, we can help them through that as well, and that's one of the reasons I'm taking this class in AI to be able to help our customers move into a realm where it's much more easily implemented if, if they already have the steps that we've put into place, you can feed that into an AI model, and it can make adjustments to what they're doing or make suggestions.   Michael Hingson ** 57:19 Is there any kind of a rule of thumb to to answer this question, how long does it take for a project to to be completed?   Jan Southern ** 57:26 You know, it takes, in all fairness, regardless of the size of the company, I would say that they need to allow six weeks minimum. That's for a small company with a small project, it can take as long as a year or two years, depending upon the number of departments and the number of people that you have to talk to about their processes. But to let's just take an example of a one, one single department in a company is looking at doing one of these processes, then they need to allow at least six weeks to for discovery, for mapping, for their people to become accustomed to the new processes and to make sure that the implementation has been tested and is working and and they're satisfied with everything that that is taking place. Six weeks is a very, very minimum, probably 90 days is a more fair assessment as to how long they should allow for everything to take place.   Michael Hingson ** 58:39 Do you find that, if you are successful with, say, a larger company, when you go in and work with one department and you're able to demonstrate success improvements, or whatever it is that that you define as being successful, that then other departments want to use your services as well?   Jan Southern ** 59:00 Yes, yes, we do. That's a very good point. Is that once you've helped them to help themselves, if you will, once you've helped them through that process, then they recognize the value of that, and we'll move on to another division or another department to do the same thing.   Michael Hingson ** 59:21 Word of mouth counts for a lot,   Jan Southern ** 59:24 doesn't it? Though, I'd say 90% of our business at Ferguson and company comes through referrals. They refer either through a center of influence or a current client who's been very satisfied with the work that we've done for them, and they tell their friends and networking people that you know. Here's somebody that you should use if you're considering this type of a project.   Michael Hingson ** 59:48 Well, if people want to reach out to you and maybe explore using your services in Ferguson services, how do they do that?   Jan Southern ** 59:55 They contact they can. If they want to contact me directly, it's Jan. J, a n, at Ferguson dash alliance.com and that's F, E, R, G, U, S, O, N, Dash alliance.com and they can go to our website, which is the same, which is Ferguson dash alliance.com One thing that's very, very good about our our website is, there's a page that's called resources, and there's a lot of free advice, if you will. There's a lot of materials there that are available to family owned businesses, specifically, but any business could probably benefit from that. And so those are free for you to be able to access and look at, and there's a lot of blog information, free eBook out there, and so that's the best way to reach Ferguson Alliance.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:52 Well, cool. Well, I hope people will take all of this to heart. You certainly offered a lot of interesting and I would say, very relevant ideas and thoughts about dealing with processes and the importance of having processes. For several years at a company, my wife was in charge of document control and and not only doc control, but also keeping things secure. Of course, having the sense of humor that I have, I pointed out nobody else around the company knew how to read Braille, so what they should really do is put all the documents in Braille, then they'd be protected, but nobody. I was very disappointed. Good idea   Speaker 2 ** 1:01:36 that is good idea that'll keep them safe from everybody. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:39 Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank to thank all of you for listening today. We've been doing this an hour. How much fun. It is fun. Well, I appreciate it, and love to hear from all of you about today's episode. Please feel free to reach out to me. You can email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com or go to our podcast page. Michael hingson, M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, but wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value your thoughts and your opinions, and I hope that you'll tell other people about the podcasts as well. This has been an interesting one, and we try to make them all kind of fun and interesting, so please tell others about it. And if anyone out there listening knows of anyone who ought to be a guest, Jan, including you, then please feel free to introduce us to anyone who you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. Because I believe everyone has a story to tell, and I want to get as many people to have the opportunity to tell their stories as we can. So I hope that you'll all do that and give us reviews and and stick with us. But Jan, again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun.   Jan Southern ** 1:02:51 It has been a lot of fun, and I certainly thank you for inviting me.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:00 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

This week we are chatting with Freek van Welsenis, the Director and CEO of Hable One. Freek is here to talk about the Hable One, a sleek Braille device that can be used to navigate your smart devices. He also tells us about the Hable Easy, a smartphone controller, and the Speechlabel, a handy device for labelling and subsequently identifying items around the house and in work.   Mohammed and Jan's date to Jan's local football club didn't go so well. It appears that Mohammed was left to fend for himself at the ticket gate! Well, Chantal was also with him, so he wasn't completely abandoned, and Mo is famous for being independent, so we don't think he was in any danger, but we're not sure Jan will get a second date!   We have an email from Sarah from ‘down under'; she is wondering if smart speakers are useful, or are they really just small juke-boxes? What do you think? Do you still use your smart speaker for anything else but setting timers? email us: blindguyschat@gmail.com   So, strip down to your #25 Juho Kilo jersey and start your warmup for the best podcast this side of a stroopwafel: Blind Guys Chat. 9 out of 11 football supporters prefer it to watching grown men cry!   Links: ·       Hable One: https://www.iamhable.com/en-om/products/hable-one-keyboard ·       Hable Easy: https://www.iamhable.com/en-om/products/hable-easy ·       Hable Speechlabel: https://www.iamhable.com/en-om/pages/speechlabel ·       Juho Kilo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juho_Kilo Support Blind Guys Chat by contributing to their tip jar: https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/blind-guys-chatRead transcript

Bart Simons is braillegebruiker en -pleitbezorger, en al vele jaren lid van onze bibliotheek. Luisterpuntmedewerker Diego Anthoons ging met hem in gesprek over braille, lezen, toegankelijkheid en nog veel meer. 

The RNIB's long term strategy involves making substantial financial savings. One of the services proposed for cuts was the transcription on request of braille books and other documents. Following a high level of complaints about this, a year's extension of the service has been agreed whilst a consultation exercise takes place. However, concerns remain, including from visually impaired people who use the service to obtain braille music scores. We examine the issue in more detail with the help of Connor Scott-Gardner, James Risdon and Stefan Andrusyschyn. Presenter: Peter White Producer: Fern Lulham Production Coordinator: Kim AgostinoWebsite image description: Peter White sits smiling in the centre of the image, wearing a dark green jumper. Above Peter's head is the BBC logo (three individual white squares house each of the three letters). Bottom centre and overlaying the image are the words "In Touch"; and the Radio 4 logo (the word Radio in a bold white font, with the number 4 inside a white circle). The background is a bright mid-blue with two rectangles angled diagonally to the right. Both are behind Peter, one of a darker blue and the other is a lighter blue.'

2025 marquant le bicentenaire de l'invention du braille, c'est l'occasion pour la BBR de le promouvoir à travers son podcast. Nous vous proposons d'en apprendre davantage dans ce nouvel épisode en vous parlant du braille numérique. En effet, le braille ne se lit plus seulement sur papier mais est également accessible en numérique à l'aide de dispositifs informatiques. Rencontre avec notre collègue Thi Hanh, enseignante de braille et utilisatrice au quotidien.

Oaks brings a bunch of new releases to you 50% of which are home grown. Also he's set a new record for the highest number of emcees appearing in the first 2 tracks of an episode at 16!! (this is yet to be officially confirmed by official officials). Some bangers and as always some deep reflections. Get it into ya! Playlist: Representing For The Kingdom by Krosswerdz Queensland ft. Psalms, T.Jay, Young Faith, D4C, River, Reboz & Inia Bitter Waters by Polished Arrow Music & Nikuubeats ft. m1L, Griffin, Procyse, MotionPlus, Kaboose, Rich Colon, Tae Lamar, JusJames & iNTELLECT Opened by The Profit ft. Shelly H Order My Steps by Aasha Marie Root of All Sin by Thy Evangelist & Ohdee Step Up (pt.2) by Braille & 1995 Never Stop Rockin' It by Shelly H Fish by Seron ft. Extra Prolific & O-Love Reality by Kyle Wilkins kNew Nostalgia @ 1:03pm by Sho Baraka Still Waters by Jonnie 3:16 ft. Oakbridge johnny depp by Aable Open Mike 1 by K-Wak Father Figure by Bril Abanti & Cyfe II Vote on the playlist at www.definitionradio.com/show/971 Leave your requests/shout-outs on our socials www.facebook.com/DefinitionRadio www.instagram.com/DefinitionHH www.twitter.com/DefinitionHH www.krosswerdz.com

On this episode of Talking Technology, it's all about Braille.We explore the new Braille access feature included with iOS 26, and we get a demo of its capabilities from our very own Mairead O'Mahony.Brian discusses how Meta glasses can be used with Braille displays and explains why this is so important.We discuss architecture in this week's tech news and tell you about some exclusive content over on our YouTube channel. Links of note:accessible voting information from the electoral commission:  https://www.electoralcommission.ie/accessible-voting/Audio for users of ballot paper templates:  https://www.presidentialelection.ie/general-information/0:00 Intro  3:18 Voice Notes  15:51 Brian Discusses Braille on the Meta Glasses  24:06 New iOS 26 Braille Access Features  54:34 Talking Technology News  1:08:36 OutroSupport the show

Ha sido y es el sistema de lectoescritura utilizado por las personas ciegas en el mundo. Nació de la mano del joven francés, de 16 años, Louis Braille. Corría 1825 y en 2025 celebramos el bicentenario de la creación de este sistema que abrió las puertas de la autonomía cultural a las personas ciegas. Y en contra de lo que se pudiera pensar... el braille está más vivo que nunca. Los ciegos braillistas europeos lo reinventan cada día para incorporarlo a las nuevas tecnologías.Escuchar audio

Ever wonder why Bob Hope still lands with new audiences today? I sit down with Bill Johnson, a gifted Bob Hope tribute artist who grew up in Wichita and found his way from dinner theater to USO stages around the world. We talk about radio roots, World War II entertainment, and how “history with humor” keeps veterans' stories alive. You'll hear how Bill built a respectful tribute, the line between tribute and impersonation, and why audience connection—timing, tone, and true care—matters more than perfect mimicry. I believe you'll enjoy this one; it's funny, warm, and full of the kind of details that make memories stick.   Highlights: 00:10 - Hear how a Bob Hope tribute artist frames humor to build instant rapport. 01:41 - Learn how Wichita roots, a theater scholarship, and early TV/radio love shaped a performer. 10:37 - See why acting in Los Angeles led to dinner theater, directing, and meeting his future wife. 15:39 - Discover the Vegas break that sparked a Bob Hope character and a first World War II reunion show. 18:27 - Catch how a custom character (the Stradivarius) evolved into a Hope-style stage persona. 21:16 - Understand the “retirement home test” and how honest rooms sharpen a tribute act. 25:42 - Learn how younger audiences still laugh at classic material when context is set well. 30:18 - Hear the “history with humor” method and why dates, places, and accuracy earn trust. 31:59 - Explore Hope's USO tradition and how Bill carries it forward for veterans and families. 36:27 - Get the difference between a tribute and an impersonation and what makes audiences accept it. 41:40 - Pick up joke-craft insights on setup, economy of words, and fast recoveries when lines miss. 46:53 - Hear travel stories from Tokyo to Fort Hood and why small moments backstage matter. 50:01 - Learn the basics of using Hope's material within IP and public domain boundaries. 51:28 - See the ethical close: making sure a “reasonable person” knows they saw a tribute.   About the Guest:   With a career spanning over thirty years, Bill has forged his niche on stage, screen, and television as a dependable character actor.   Bill's tribute to the late, great Bob Hope was showcased in New Orleans, LA at Experience the Victory, the grand opening of the National WWII Museum's first expansion project. In the ceremony, Bill introduced broadcaster Tom Brokaw, and performed a brief moment of comedy with Academy Award winning actor, Tom Hanks. Bill continues to appear regularly at the WWII Museum, most recently in On the Road with Bob Hope and Friends, which was under-written by the Bob & Dolores Hope Foundation.   Highlights from over the years has included the 70th Anniversary of the End of WWII Celebration aboard the USS Midway in San Diego, and the Welcome Home Vietnam Parade in Tennessee. Additionally, Bill has been honored to appear around the world as Mr. Hope for the USO in locations such as the Bob Hope USO centers in Southern California, the USO Cincinnati Tribute to Veterans (appearing with Miss America 2016-Betty Cantrell),  USO Ft. Hood (appearing with the legendary Wayne Newton), USO of Central and Southern Ohio, USO Puget Sound Area in Seattle, USO Guam, USO Tokyo, USO Holiday Shows in Virginia Beach for US Tours, and a Tribute to the USO on the island of  Maui with country music superstar Lee Greenwood.   Other notable appearances include Tribute Shows for Honor Flight chapters in Alabama, South Carolina, and Ohio, the Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association, the US Army Ball, the annual 1940's Ball in Boulder, CO, “USO Cuties Show” at the Tropicana in Atlantic City, the Les Brown Jazz Festival in Tower City, PA, and Hosting “So Many Laughs: A Night of Comedy” at the National Veterans Memorial and Museum in Columbus, OH.   Through the years, Bill has been “murdered” on CSI, portrayed Michael Imperioli's banker in High Roller: The Stu Unger Story, as well as, roles in films such as Ocean's 11, Three Days to Vegas, TV's Scare Tactics, Trick Shot, an award winning short film for Canon cameras, and the series finale of Dice, where Bill appeared as John Quincy Adams opposite Andrew Dice Clay.     Bill is currently based out of Las Vegas, NV where he lives with his wife, author Rosemary Willhide, and rescue dog, Brownie.   Ways to connect with Bill:   http://www.billjohnsonentertainment.com http://www.GigSalad.com/williampatrickjohnson     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:23 This is your host, Mike hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset. You know, we have a saying here, unstoppable mindset, where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and we're going to definitely have unexpected today. This is also going to be a very fun episode. By the time you hear this, you will have heard a couple of conversations that I had with Walden Hughes, who is the president of the radio enthusiast of Puget Sound. And he's also on the on other boards dealing with old radio show. And he introduced me to Bill Johnson, who is a person that is well known for taking on the role of Bob Hope, and I'm sure that we're going to hear a bunch about that as we go forward here. But Bill is our guest today, and I just played a little segment of something for Bill with Bob Hope and Bing Crosby, two characters by any standard. Well, anyway, we'll get to all that. Bill, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset, and I'm really honored that you're here with us today.   Bill Johnson ** 02:31 Oh, thanks a million. Michael, it's such a pleasure to be here. Well, this is going to be a fun discussion.   Michael Hingson ** 02:38 Oh, I think so. I think absolutely by any standard, it'll be fun. Well, why don't we start before it gets too fun with some of the early stories about Bill growing up and all that. Tell us about the early bill.   Bill Johnson ** 02:52 Okay, well, I was born and raised in Wichita, Kansas, of all places. And I used to say, I used to Marvel watching Hope's Christmas specials with my family that sort of spurred my interest. But grew up in Midwest, went to Wichita State University, and then after graduation, I had a job with an independent film company and a move to Los Angeles seeking my fortune. Well, the film company pulled it in three months, as those things do, and so I was left with my, I guess, my pursuit of the entertainment career from there.   Michael Hingson ** 03:42 So did you what you went to school and high school and all that stuff?   Bill Johnson ** 03:46 Yes, oh yes, I went to Wichita East High I didn't graduate with honors, but I graduated with a B,   Michael Hingson ** 03:56 that's fair B for Bob Hope, right? Yeah.   Bill Johnson ** 04:01 And then I actually went to college under a theater scholarship, wow. And so that, in those days, that would pay for everything, books, class, which delighted my parents, because we were a family of simple means. So that was the only way I was going to go to college was having a scholarship and but as it turns out, it was for the best years of my humble life, because I got a lot of hands on experience in a Wichita State medium sized College, yeah, but back then it was Much smaller, so I had a lot of opportunity.   Michael Hingson ** 04:43 I've actually been to Wichita State. I've been to Wichita and, oh, great, did some speaking back there. And we're probably going to be doing more in the future. But it's an it's a nice town. It's a great town to to be a part of. I think,   Bill Johnson ** 04:56 yes, people are so nice there. And what I. I've noticed living in other places and then going home to visit Wichitas are cleaned. Just something you noticed, the streets are usually pretty clean and foliage is well manicured. So hats off to the city for keeping the place up to date or keeping it clean   Michael Hingson ** 05:22 anyway. Well, yeah, you got to do what you got to do, and that's amazing. And in the winter, everything gets covered up by the snow.   Bill Johnson ** 05:30 Yes, you do get all four seasons in Wichita, whether you like it or not. See there, yeah, it's one of those places where they have that saying, If you don't like the weather, wait 10 minutes and it'll change.   Michael Hingson ** 05:43 Yeah. So, so, so there. So you majored in theater in college?   Bill Johnson ** 05:49 Yes, I did. Actually, the official designation at Wichita State was speech communication, ah, so that's what I got my Bachelor of Arts   Michael Hingson ** 06:02 degree in so what years? What years were you there?   Bill Johnson ** 06:05 I was there in the fall of 75 and graduated a semester late. So I graduated in December of 79 Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 06:17 yeah, but that was after basically the traditional golden days and golden age of radio, wasn't   Bill Johnson ** 06:24 it? Yes, it was still in the days of black and white television.   Michael Hingson ** 06:29 But yeah, there was a lot of black and white television, and there were some resurgence of radio, radio mystery theater CBS was on, and I think that was before, well, no, maybe later in 7879 I don't know when it was, but NPR did Star Wars. And so there were some radio, radio things, which was pretty good.   Bill Johnson ** 06:53 And I think our friends in Lake will be gone began.   Michael Hingson ** 06:56 Oh yeah, they were in, I think 71 garrison. Keillor, okay, it'll be quiet week in Lake will be gone my hometown. I know I listened every week. Oh, I   Bill Johnson ** 07:06 did too. So my interest in radio was, I think, started back then.   Michael Hingson ** 07:12 Yeah, I enjoyed him every week. As I love to describe him, he clearly was the modern Mark Twain of the United States and radio for that matter. Is that right?   Bill Johnson ** 07:26 Oh, gosh, well, I, I'm, I'm, I'm glad to agree with you. And a lot of that wasn't it improvised to his weekly monolog. He'd have, oh, sure, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 07:39 he, had ideas. He may have had a couple notes, but primarily it was improvised. He just did it. He just did it.   Bill Johnson ** 07:47 I let some of the episodes you take a lot of find a lot of humor in the fact he's kind of pleased with himself. And he goes, Well, look what we just said, or something. He'll do.   Michael Hingson ** 07:57 Yeah, it was, it was fun. So what did you do after college? Well,   Bill Johnson ** 08:03 after college, when I had moved to Los Angeles, after that, did not work out. I pursued my living as a as an actor, which didn't last long. So I of course, had to get a secondary job, I guess. Let me back up. It did last long, although I didn't have enough to pay my bills. Oh, well, there you go. I had a secondary job as whatever I could find, bartending. Usually, I did a lot of work as a bartender and but you get at least doing something like that. You get the people watch, yeah, oh.   Michael Hingson ** 08:47 And, that's always entertaining, isn't   Bill Johnson ** 08:49 it? Well, it can be, yeah, that's true. Back in my that's where I kind of develop your little stick you do for customers to get them to laugh and maybe tip you. My big thing was that you'd always see a couple, say, making out at the bar because it was kind of dark in there. And I would always say, Hey fellas, you want to meet my wife, Carol? Oh, that's her boss. Don't worry about it. They're having a good time or something like that, just to try to get a few laughs.   Michael Hingson ** 09:23 I've done similar things at airports. I know that the TSA agents have a such a thankless job. And one of the things I decided fairly early on, after September 11, and you know, we got out, and most people, and most of the TSA people don't know it. But anyway, whenever I go through the airport, I love to try to make them laugh. So, you know, they'll say things like, oh, I need to see your ID, please. And, and I'll say things like, Well, why did you lose yours? Or, you know, or you why? I didn't want to see it. It's just a piece of paper, right? You know? But, and I get them to laugh. Mostly, there are few that don't, but mostly they they do. And then the other thing is, of course, going through with my guide dog. And we go through the portal. They have to search the dog because he's got the metal harness on that always sets off the detector. Oh my, yeah. And, and so they say, Well, we're going to have to pet your dog. I said, Well, just wait a minute. There's something you need to know. And I really sound very serious when I do this. You got to understand this before you do that. They go, oh yeah. And they back up, and I go, he only likes long searches. If you don't take a half hour, he's not happy because his tail is going 500 miles a second, you know? Oh, great coming. But it is fun, and we get him to laugh, which is, I think, important to do. We don't laugh at enough in life anyway.   Bill Johnson ** 10:57 Amen to that. It's That's my philosophy as well, my friend. And there's not a lot to laugh about these days. And hopefully we can find the humor, even if we create it ourselves.   Michael Hingson ** 11:11 Yeah, I think there's a lot to laugh at if we find it. You know, there are a lot of things that are not going very well right now, and there are way too many things that make it hard to laugh, but we can find things if we work at it. I wish more people would do that than than some of the things that they do. But what do you do?   Bill Johnson ** 11:31 Yes, yeah, from from your mouth to God's ears, that's a great plan for the future.   Michael Hingson ** 11:39 Well, we try so you you did some acting, and you had all sorts of other jobs. And then what happened?   Bill Johnson ** 11:47 Well, I finally got fed up with the whole bartending thing and the rat race of trying to make it in Los Angeles. I did some commercials. I had a couple of small roles in some independent movies, as they say. But on my first love being theater, I hit the road again doing some regional theater shows to where I finally ended up back in Kansas, once again, that the there was a dinner theater in my hometown of Wichita, and I got hired to do shows there. Oh, so eventually becoming a resident director so and my my family was going through some challenges at the time, so it was good to be home, so I hadn't really abandoned the dream. I just refocused it, and I got a lot of great experience in directing plays, appearing in plays, and I met my white wife there. So so that was a win win on all counts.   Michael Hingson ** 13:00 I first got exposed to dinner theater after college. I was in Iowa, in Des Moines, and the person who was reading the national magazine for the National Federation of the Blind, the magazine called the Braille monitor guy was Larry McKeever was, I think, owner of and very involved in a dinner theater called Charlie's show place, and I don't remember the history, but I went to several of the performances. And then he actually tried to create a serial to go on radio. And it didn't get very far, but it would have been fun if he had been able to do more with it, but he, he did do and there were people there who did the dinner theater, and that was a lot of fun.   Bill Johnson ** 13:45 Oh, gosh, yeah, although I must say that I was sort of the black sheep of the family being in the arts. My My mom and dad came from rural communities, and so they didn't really understand this entertainment business, so that was always a challenge. But there's one footnote that I'm kind of proud of. My grandfather, who was a farmer all his life. He lived on a farm. He was raised on a farm. Every year at the Fourth of July Co Op picnic. The Co Op was a place where they would take the crops and get paid and get supplies and so forth. They would have a picnic for all the people that were their customers every year he would supposedly play the unscrupulous egg buyer or the egg salesman. And so he'd go to the routine, was an old vaudeville routine. He'd go to this poor farmer and say, Here, let me pay you for those eggs. That's here. There's one two. Say, how many kids do you guys have now? For the No, five. 678, say, How long have you and your wife been married? What is it? Seven years, eight, they get the guy go, no, 1011, 12, so that was the bit, and he would do it every year, because I guess he did it   Michael Hingson ** 15:15 really well. Drove the farmers crazy.   Bill Johnson ** 15:18 Yeah, so, so humble beginnings in the lineage,   Michael Hingson ** 15:23 but on the other hand, once you started doing that, at least being in the theater was enough to pay the bills. Yes.   Bill Johnson ** 15:30 So my parents really couldn't complain about that.   Michael Hingson ** 15:34 Well, see, it worked   Bill Johnson ** 15:36 out, yes indeed. And I met my wife, so I'm not complaining   Michael Hingson ** 15:41 about any of it. Now, was she in the theater? Yes, she was a performer.   Bill Johnson ** 15:46 We met in a show called lend me a tenor, and she was the lead, and I was at this point doing my stage management duties. But suffice to say we have gone on and done many shows together since then, and even had been able to play opposite each other a couple of times. So that cool, yeah, that's, that's a you can't ask for better memories than   Michael Hingson ** 16:13 that. No, and you guys certainly knew each other and know each other well. So that works out really well.   Bill Johnson ** 16:20 Yeah, that works out pretty good, except, you know, you sometimes you have to have a conversation and say, Okay, we're just going to leave the theater on the stage and at home. We're at home. Yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 16:32 Well, yeah, there is that, but it's okay. So how did you get into the whole process of of portraying Bob Hope, for example, and did you do anything before Bob of the same sort of thing?   Bill Johnson ** 16:51 Well, interestingly enough, to complete the whole circle of my experience, when I was performing in Wichita, I got a job opportunity here in Lacher. I'm living in Las Vegas now, to move out here and audition, or come out and audition for a new dinner show that was opening at Caesar's Palace. It was called Caesar's magical Empire, and it was, it was in 1996 and during that time, there was this big magic craze in Las Vegas. Everybody was doing magic   Michael Hingson ** 17:27 shows. You had Siegfried and Roy and yeah.   Bill Johnson ** 17:30 So I came out, I auditioned and got hired. And so then it was like, Well, now you got to move. So we moved on a just on hope and a prayer. And luckily, they eventually hired my wife, and so we got to work together there, and I eventually went on to become the, what they called the show director. I didn't do the original show direction, but it was my job to maintain the integrity of the attraction. So during those years it was that was kind of difficult, because you have to listen to being on the administrative team. You've got to listen to all the conflict that's going on, as well as and try to keep the waters calm, keep peace. Yes. So anyway, doing my show and being interactive, you talk back and forth to the audience, and after it was over, you take them out to a next the next experience in their night, when they would go see magic in a big showroom. And a lady came up to me and and she said, say, I've got this world war two reunion coming up next month. I'd like you to come and be, pretend to be Bob Hope. Do you know who that is? And I was like, yes, he's one of my heroes. And so that was the first opportunity, suffice to say, I guess I did. Should have prefaced it by saying, when the magical Empire first opened, we were all playing these mystical wizards and dark characters. Well, that didn't fly. That wasn't any fun. So then the directors, the producers said, well, everybody, come up with your own character, and we'll go from there. And so I created this character named the Stradivarius, because I like to fiddle the room. I get it and   Michael Hingson ** 19:37 but I played it like Bobby and you like to stream people along. But anyway, hey, I wish I would have   Bill Johnson ** 19:42 thought of that. My approach was like Bob Hope in one of the road pictures. So the show would be sort of a fish out of water type thing. Come on, folks. You know, I laughed when you came in that type of thing. Yeah. So when this lady saw the show that. How she got that inspiration?   Michael Hingson ** 20:04 Well, your voice is close enough to his that I could, I could see that anyway.   Bill Johnson ** 20:09 Oh, well, thank you. Sometimes I'd say it drives my wife nuts, because I'll come across an old archival material and say, Hey, honey, how about this one? So she's got to be the first audience, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 20:23 Well, I'm prejudiced, so you could tell her, I said, so okay,   Bill Johnson ** 20:27 that you would, you'd love to hear it, right? Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 20:31 Well, absolutely. Well, so you went off and you did the the World War Two event.   Bill Johnson ** 20:38 Did the World War Two event shortly after that, the met this, well, I should tell you another story, that shortly after that, a young man came to my show, and during the show, he stopped me and said, say, You remind me of someone very dear to me. Have you ever heard of Bob Hope? And I said, yeah, he's again. I said, one of my heroes. The guy said, Well, you kind of remind me of him. Went on his merry way, and I didn't think much of it. Well, it just so happens. The next day, I was watching the biography documentary of Bob Hope, and all of a sudden this talking head comes up, and it's the same guy I was just talking to in my show the day, the day before, it turns out that was, that was Bob's adopted son, Tony Tony hope. So I took that as a positive sign that maybe I was doing something similar to Mr. Hope, anyway. But then, as I said, The show closed very soon after that, sadly, Mr. Hope passed away. And 2003 right, and so there was, there was no real demand for anything like that. But I didn't let the idea go. I wanted something to do creatively. I continued to work for the same company, but I went over and ran the 3d movie at Eminem's world in Las Vegas 20 years. So I had plenty of time to think about doing   Michael Hingson ** 22:26 something creative, and you got some Eminem's along the way.   Bill Johnson ** 22:30 They keep them in the break room for the employees. So it's like, here's all the different brand I mean, here's all the different flavors and styles. So to have a way and you can tell guests, oh yeah, that's delicious. It tastes like, just like almonds or   22:45 something. Yeah.   Bill Johnson ** 22:47 So based on that, I decided to pursue this, this tribute, and it, I'll tell you, it's difficult getting started at first, you got to practically pay people to let you come and do a show. I'd go to retirement homes and say, Hey, you want to show today. Sometimes they'd let me, sometimes they wouldn't. But the thing about doing a show at a retirement community is they will be very honest with you. If you ain't any good, they'll say, man, no, thanks. Oh, nice try. So know where my trouble spots were,   Michael Hingson ** 23:29 but, but audiences don't treat you as the enemy, and I know that one of the things I hear regularly is, well, how do you speak so much and so well. You know the one of the greatest fears that we all have as a public speaking, and one of the things that I constantly tell people is, think about the audiences. They want you to succeed. They came because they want to hear you succeed, and you need to learn how to relate to them. But they're not out to get you. They want you to be successful and and they love it when you are and I learned that very early on and speaking has never been something that I've been afraid of. And I think it's so important that people recognize that the audiences want you to succeed anyway.   Bill Johnson ** 24:17 That's so true. And you kind of touched on a quote I remember one of the books from Bob hopes. He said how he approaches it. He said, I consider the audience as my best friends, and who doesn't want to spend time with your best friend, right?   Michael Hingson ** 24:34 And I and I believe that when I speak, I don't talk to an audience. I talk with the audience, and I will try to do some things to get them to react, and a lot of it is when I'm telling a story. I've learned to know how well I'm connecting by how the audience reacts, whether there's intakes of breath or or they're just very silent or whatever. And I think that's so important, but he's. Absolutely right. Who wouldn't want to spend time with your best friend? Yes, amen. Did you ever get to meet Bob? Hope   Bill Johnson ** 25:07 you know I never did, although I at one point in my when I was living in Los Angeles, a friend of mine and I, we were in the over the San Fernando Valley, and they said, Hey, I think there's some stars homes near here. Let's see if we can find them. And we said, I think Bob Hope lives on this street. So we went down Moor Park Avenue in Toluca Lake, and we finally saw this home with a giant H on the gate. And it's like, Oh, I wonder. This has got to be it. Well, all of a sudden these gates began to open. And we, kind of, my friend and I were like, and here, here, Hope came driving home. He was, he arrived home in a very nicely appointed Chrysler Cordoba, remember those? And he had one, he just was just scowling at us, like, what are you doing in my life? You know, and they drove it. So that's as close as I got to the real guy. But I wish I could have had the pleasure of seeing him in person, but never, never was fortunate enough.   Michael Hingson ** 26:18 Well, one of the things that's interesting is like with the World Trade Center, and I've realized over the past few years, we're in a world with a whole generation that has absolutely no direct Memory of the World Trade Center because they weren't born or they were too young to remember. And that goes even further back for Bob Hope. How does that work? Do you find that you're able to connect with younger audiences? Do they talk with you know? Do they do they react? Do they love it? How   Bill Johnson ** 26:52 does that go? Well, interestingly enough, a lot of times, if there are younger people at shows, they're usually dragged there by their parents and I have found that they will start chuckling and giggling and laughing in spite of themselves, because that old humor of hopes that, granted, it is corny, but there's some great material there, if presented in the proper context. Yeah. I was funny story. I was doing a show at the National World War Two Museum in New Orleans. They were dedicating a new theater or something, and the color guard was a group of local leaf Marines that were serving in a local base, and they were standing there right before they went on, and this young man kept looking at me, and finally he said, very respectfully, says, I'm sorry, sir, but who are you? So I said, luckily, there was a picture of Bob Hope on the wall. And I said, Well, I'm trying to be that guy. And I said, Hang around a little bit. You'll hear some of the material so, but that's the thing I that you did bring up. An interesting point is how to keep your audience, I guess, interested, even though the humor is 4056, 70 years old, I call it like all my approach history with humor. The first time I did the Bob Hope, as in the national natural progression of things, I went to an open call, eventually here in Vegas to do they were looking for impersonators for an afternoon show at the Riviera in a place called Penny town. It was just a place for Penny slots. And they had, and they hired me. They said you can do your Bob Hope impression there. And so they had a stage that was on a one foot riser. You had a microphone and a speaker and a sound man, and you had to do a 10 Minute monolog six times a day every Yeah, do 10 minutes. You'd have about a 40 minute break. Do 10 more. And I didn't do it every day, but you would be scheduled. Maybe they'd have, you know, have a Reba McEntire one day. They'd have an Elvis one day. Well, so I would it was a great place to try your ad, because, and that's what turned me on to the whole idea of history with humor. Because when I started, I was just doing some of his material I'd found in a hope joke book that I thought were funny. Well, once in a while, people would be playing the slots. Granted, they were looking at the machines. Nobody was looking at me. And once, when I'd have somebody who. Ah, you know, crank the arm, one arm banded against and then, or I make the sound man laugh. And that was my goal. Well, there was a snack bar right in front of us with a rail that people. They weren't tables, but you could go, lean against the rail and eat your I think it was called Moon doggies hot dog stand so you could eat your hot dog and watch Bob. Hope so if I could make the moon doggy people hot dog folks choke on their hot dog while they were laughing. That was like a home run. Yeah. But to keep them interested, tell them something that they will know. For instance, Hope's first show for the troops was May 6, 1941 down in March field in Riverside California. And you start giving dates and specifics that i i can see the people in the audience go, oh yeah, in their mind's eye, they if they were around, then they will go back to that day. What was I doing then? Okay, and so you kind of make the world relevant for them. So that's how I approach World War Two, Korea and Vietnam. Is give dates and places, which you got to be accurate, because the veterans   Michael Hingson ** 31:27 will set you straight. Oh yeah, because they do remember. Oh yes, they were there.   Bill Johnson ** 31:33 So some of them and but it's, it's amazing, as you say, you can tell if the audience is engaged by if they inhale or if they make some complimentary noises during the show. Sometimes I'll get fellas who will sit there and ponder just looking at me, and then they'll come up afterwards and say, Man, I hadn't thought about that in years.   Michael Hingson ** 32:04 Yeah, thank you. And you know you're connecting, yeah, yeah.   Bill Johnson ** 32:09 And because hope represented, I think, a good memory in a kind of a rough time for a   Michael Hingson ** 32:16 lot of folks. Well, he did. He did so much for the troops with the military. And as you said, May 6, 1941, and it went from there. And of course, during the whole war, he was all over and entertaining people and and he was also very active in radio as part of all that.   Bill Johnson ** 32:38 Oh my goodness, I don't know how the man found time to sleep, because if he were alive today, he would love social media and podcasts and things, because he was always trying to get his name in the paper or get some publicity, but he never forgot about his audience. He would want to do a show for the troops, no matter where they were stationed or he said I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I didn't try.   Michael Hingson ** 33:10 Yeah, well, you do a lot with veterans and so on. So you've kind of kept up that tradition, haven't you?   Bill Johnson ** 33:19 Yes, I have been fortunate enough to play a lot of reunions and some, maybe some uso themed shows, because that first show he did, hope did, in May of 1941 was they just was a radio show that his, one of his writers had a brother stationed it in Riverside, California, and the war hadn't started, so they had nothing to do, right? These guys were bored, and so he said, Let's take our show down there and hope. So hope didn't want to leave the comfort of his NBC studio. It's like, you know, what's the idea? And they said, how big is the crowd? And they said, Well, I don't know, maybe 1000 and of course, you know 1000 people. And you know, in Hope's mind, he says, I'd give my arm and a leg to hear 10 people laugh. 100 people is like a symphony, but 1000 people, yeah, sheer fantasy. So he said, Oh, wait a minute, are you 1000 people? Are you sure? And this guy, Al capstaff, said, Well, maybe two. So that was it. And they went down. And when the audience, of course, they were just hungry for anything, the response was just so great that hope said, well, where has this been? And he said, shortly after that, we teamed up with the USO and been going steady. Ever since, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 35:02 and that's so cool. And again, you've, you've kept a lot of that going to now, we've talked on this show with Walden about reps and the showcase and so on. Are you going to be up at the recreation in Washington in September?   Bill Johnson ** 35:18 Yes, I am. I'll be there, and we're, I believe we're doing a one of the cavalcade of America shows that sort of incorporates a lot of his initial, well, one of his initial tours over in World War Two. But it's because a cavalcade is a recreation. A lot of it's drama, dramatized, but it's, it's and it's encapsulated you go bang, bang, bang across a big section of World War Two and Hope's experience in Europe. But it's, to me, as a fan of that genre, it's fascinating, so I just looking forward to it. I think it's going to be a lot of fun.   Michael Hingson ** 36:04 Well, we ought to, one of these days, we need to just do a Bob Hope radio show or something like that, and get you to come on and get an audience and and, and just do a show.   Bill Johnson ** 36:15 Oh, that would be great. I would love. That would be fun. That would be great, you know. And if there's any naysayers, you just say they said, Why do you want to do radio? Say, well, as hope would say, radio is just TV without the eye strain,   Michael Hingson ** 36:30 yeah, and the reality, you know, I'm one of my favorite characters, and one of my favorite shows is Richard diamond private detective, and I was originally going to actually be at the showcase doing Richard diamond, but I've got a speaking engagement, so I won't be able to be there this time, so we'll do it another time. But I remember, you know, at the beginning of every show, the first thing that would happen is that the phone would ring and he would answer it and say something cute, and it was usually his girlfriend, Helen Asher, who is played by Virginia, or who is, yeah, played by Virginia. Greg and one of his shows started. The phone rang. He picked it up. Diamond detective agency, we can solve any crime except television. That's great. I love that one. I love to use that.   Bill Johnson ** 37:20 I gotta remember that that's a great line, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 37:24 but it's really fun. Well, so you classify yourself as a tribute artist. How do you really get started in doing that, and how do you keep that going?   Bill Johnson ** 37:38 Well, that's, that's a, that's the million dollar question. Basically, I I found all the archival material I could find, and there's a ton of information on Bob Hope on YouTube nowadays, and you need to decide, are you a tribute, or are you an impersonator? Because there is a slight difference.   Michael Hingson ** 38:04 What difference a tribute?   Bill Johnson ** 38:08 Well, first off, an impersonator is someone who resembles someone famous and dresses up in a manner as to portray them, and that can include a tribute artist who may not look identical to the person, but can capture a mannerism or a vocal vocal rhythm to suggest enough that the audience will accept it. I I do it. I am, I feel like I can capture a little bit of his face with some, you know, some of the expressions people have told me my eyes resemble his, as well as wear a hat or something from try to copy a costume from a picture that is very you feel like is iconic of this character. So if you can come out and present that, that's the battle hope would always he began his radio shows, as you recall, by saying where he was and like, how do you do ladies and gentlemen, this is Bob live from Santa Ana Air Base, hope and and then do a two, two line rhyme about his sponsor, usually Pepsodent, just to get on to start the show with a laugh like Pepsodent on your brush and use plenty of traction and none of Your teeth. They'll be missing in action.   39:39 Yeah.   Bill Johnson ** 39:42 Huge, but, but you to to pursue it. As I said, you've just got to, you've got to kind of forage out in the real world and see if see somebody's looking for a show, and hopefully get someone to take a chance. Okay? Give you an opportunity. That's why I went to that open call to do that show at the Riviera. It is difficult to tell jokes at people that are chewing at you, but it's a good learning ground, plus doing the shows at the retirement homes made you prepared for anything because, but I found that I got the strongest response from veteran mentioned some of those history moments, historical moments. And so I thought maybe I'll just focus on this, not to put together the other comedy. And the other experiences are very important too. But the things I have found people remember the most were those shows for the troops. Yeah, and basically, in a nutshell, and they don't remember what did he What did he say? Do you remember a joke? Sometimes they'll tell me a joke, but most, most times, they don't remember what he said, but they remember how he made them feel,   Michael Hingson ** 41:06 yeah, and the fact that he said it, yes, yeah,   Bill Johnson ** 41:10 there's a there's a common joke I'd heard for years, and a friend of mine told me he was a 10 year old kid at Fort Levin fort, Leonard Wood, Missouri. And hope came out and told the joke. The guy goes into a bar. Oh, no, excuse me. Let me back up. A grasshopper goes into a bar. The bartender says, Hey, we got a drink named after you. The grasshopper says, you got a drink named Irving cute. And I'd heard that. Yeah, I guess hope told it and so you never know what what inspires your comedy, but there's a lot of common things I heard growing up that I will find hope said. Hope said it at one point or another in his either his radio show or on one of his specials. So   Michael Hingson ** 41:58 do you think that a lot of what he did was ad lib, or do you think that it was mostly all written, and he just went from a script?   Bill Johnson ** 42:07 That's a good point. He was one of the first performers to use cue cards, okay? And a lot of it was was written, but from what I've read is that he was also very fast on his feet. That's what I thought. Because if something happened, he would come in with a bang, with with another line to top it, yeah. Well, you know, like we were talking about that command performance, where with Lana Turner that he said, she said, Well, they've been looking at ham all night, and you're still here. Ah, big laugh. Haha, yeah. And he said, Now I'm bacon with the double entendre, you know, like, yeah, you burn me, whatever. But that was, I thought that was   Michael Hingson ** 42:51 cute, yeah, and he, and he is, clearly there had to be a whole lot more to him than than writing. And so I absolutely am convinced that there was a lot of bad living. And there was just, he was fast, he was good at it and them, and the more he got comfortable, because of those big crowds that they got him started, the better he became   Bill Johnson ** 43:16 absolutely you can there's a great book by, I know, do you know Bob mills? He was one, was one of Bob Hope's writers wrote a right and he explains the formula behind a lot of their jokes situation, and then it would have a payoff, you know, like, I don't know what happened, but now that you know this is set up in a setup and then the joke. Hope supposedly liked an economy of dialog. He didn't like a lot of language going from point A to point B to tell his joke. That's why the rapid fire delivery. And he had a lot of jokes in his shows. The radio shows had, at least, was it something like 10 jokes a minute?   Michael Hingson ** 44:08 Well, they were, they were very fast. And there were, we've got a few rehearsals of Bob Hope shows. And clearly some of the things that he did, because at first he wasn't getting the reaction that he thought he was going to get, but he pulled it out. And again, it's all because he was fast. He was good.   Bill Johnson ** 44:29 Yeah, I've got some blooper reels from some of the Christmas specials, and he'll try and try and try. And then finally, he'll say, take that card and tear it up, throw it away. And that's funnier than the joke itself.   Michael Hingson ** 44:44 Yeah, than the joke itself. It's really cute. So you obviously like performing. Does that run in your family?   Bill Johnson ** 44:55 Well, not necessarily, as I said, I'm kind of the black sheep of the. Family, because I was in the arts, they would rather have a more what do I want to say? A more safe career, a career choice as a you know, because entertaining, you're always wondering, well, where's my next job? Yeah, as opposed to something else, where you might have a better idea of what are your next paychecks coming? But I do have always had a day job, and this is sort of like my way to flex those creative muscles.   Michael Hingson ** 45:33 So what's your day job today? My   Bill Johnson ** 45:35 day job is I still do technical support for the good folks at Eminem's world on the script. Only they after covid happened, they closed the 3d movie that I was overseeing. And another fellow, when I do tech support, we just basically make sure the lights come on. And as well as I have a job at the College of Southern Nevada, on the support staff, trying to help folks who have English as a Second Language get a job. So I find those are both rewarding challenges.   Michael Hingson ** 46:15 It's a good thing I don't go to Eminem's world because I don't really care if the lights are on or not.   Bill Johnson ** 46:20 Oh, well, there you go. We need somebody here doing rim shots.   Michael Hingson ** 46:26 Yeah, you like dependent people are all alike. You know, you got to have all those lights. Yes, I don't know that I've been to Eminem's world. I've been to the Eminem store in New York City, but I don't think I've been to the one in Las Vegas.   Bill Johnson ** 46:40 I was actually at the opening of that Eminem store in New York City. Funny story, they know they have people that put on the character suits, right? And when I was there to help them kind of get their get acclimated to wearing those suits and then peering in front of people. Well, the kids were doing around, say, two in the afternoon. Well, the New York Times showed up at noon, one pick they wanted a picture of and so I had to put on the I was yellow, the peanut, and this other person that was there put on the red suit, and we walked down on 46th Street and started walking on the street, wave and and carrying on. I thought, Here I am. I finally made it to Broadway. Yeah, and I'm and I'm dressed as a nut so,   Michael Hingson ** 47:30 and you had Hershey right across the street,   Bill Johnson ** 47:32 right across the street, so I don't know. I imagine her, she's still there, probably still going head to head, to this   Michael Hingson ** 47:40 day, the last time I heard they were so well, I don't know, I don't know whether anything really changed with covid, but the last I heard they were   Bill Johnson ** 47:49 well, more powerful, Yeah, funny story.   Michael Hingson ** 47:56 Well, so you will, you travel basically anywhere to do a show? Are there any limits?   Bill Johnson ** 48:03 Or no, I'll go anywhere. My this tribute has taken me as far as Tokyo, Japan for the USO there. I've done shows in the Pacific and Guam I'm not too sure I want to travel internationally these days, but if somebody has an opportunity, I'll think about it. Funny thing happened at that, that show I did in Tokyo, I was, it was, it was a gala for the local uso honor the the troops who were serving in that area. So they had that representative from each branch that was serving our Navy, Marines and the Japan, nation of Japan now has what they call, this, the Civil Defense Group. I believe that's what they call because after World War Two, they signed that document saying they would not have an organized military. But right, they have their civil defense, and so we were honoring them, that there was a group, an Andrew sisters trio, performing, singing and dancing and and I was standing off off stage, just waiting to go on and finish the show. And this, this has been 20 years ago. Let me preface that this older Japanese gentleman came up to me, and he said, I would like to make a toast. And there was a lady in charge who, you know this was. There was some, some admirals there, and leaders of the Seventh Fleet were, were there. So everything had to be approved. Everything went according to schedule. The military events are just boom, boom, boom. And so I said, Well, okay, I need to ask Judy, when this Judy was in charge, when we can do this? And he just said, I want to make a tow. Toast. And I said, okay, but I have to clear it with Judy. Well, I finally got Judy and said that older Japanese man would like to make a toast. And she said, Yes, let him do whatever he wants. Turns out, he was an admiral in the Japanese Navy during during World War Two, and he was attending the event here, although these many years later, just as you know, everyone else was sure. So to bail myself out of it, I went back on said stage and said, And now, ladies and gentlemen, our honored guest would like to make a toast. And he, of course, I can't remember the toast, but as I at the time, I thought that was very sweet and very eloquent. So it's just these incredible little snippets of life you you go through. It's like, how could I ever know, when I was a five year old kid in Kansas, that Monday I'd be chatting with a world war two Admiral from the Japanese Navy, right? Just, it's just mind boggling.   Michael Hingson ** 51:06 So I'm curious. Bob Hope copyrighted a lot of his jokes. Are you able to still use them? Well, that's a   Bill Johnson ** 51:13 good question. Yes, he did. He copyrighted his jokes and everything, however, and I have spoken to the lawyer for the hope estate. There are the, what do you call that? It just flew out of my head that the the laws surrounding   Michael Hingson ** 51:32 intellectual property, copyright laws and intellectual property and public domain, yeah, yeah.   Bill Johnson ** 51:38 The song, thanks for the memory is in public domain, and hope would always change the lyrics to where he went because he hated the song. Supposedly he had, how did I get hung with that old dog of a song?   Michael Hingson ** 51:52 Yeah, well, he kept using it every week, so I can't believe it was too anti song. Yeah,   Bill Johnson ** 51:57 that's true, but the hope is they did copyright his jokes, but as long as I don't write a book and try to sell them as my jokes, I should be fine as well as I am. Allow you the those laws allow you to present impersonate someone, no matter who it is. You could impersonate your next door neighbor, even though he's not famous, as long as you do not do something to harm them, yeah, or represent it in an unflattering way   Michael Hingson ** 52:28 well, and clearly, what you're doing is pretty obvious to anyone who knows at all that it's Bob Hope and that you're trying to do a tribute to him. So I would think it would make sense that that would work   Bill Johnson ** 52:39 well it should and but the final caveat is that a reasonable person must come away from the show knowing full well they did not see the original. You must tell them. And Bob Hope's been gone for   Michael Hingson ** 52:55 many years. Yeah, 22 years now.   Bill Johnson ** 52:59 So that's usually not a problem, but that's how I finished my tribute as vice is, I usually wear a hat to complete the illusion, with the bill flecked up. I'll take the hat off and say, now if I could break character and tell about how hope was named an honorary veteran, and at the age of 94 it was an amendment passed by Congress designated him as an honorary veteran, and it was received unanimous bipartisan support   Michael Hingson ** 53:30 as it should yes and   Bill Johnson ** 53:33 Hope went on to say, sort of all the awards I've received in my lifetime being now being listed among the men and women I admire the most. This is my greatest honor, so that's a good way for me to wrap up my tributes whenever possible.   Michael Hingson ** 53:54 Do you have, oh, go ahead, no,   Bill Johnson ** 53:56 I was gonna say there's another funny story. You know, hope lived to be 100 Yeah, and George Burns.   Michael Hingson ** 54:03 George Burns, lived to be 100   Bill Johnson ** 54:05 lived to be 100 Supposedly, the two of them had a bet as to who would live the longest. Now, the thing is, what were the stakes and how do you collect? Yeah, because some guy, you're not going to be there. But in any event, George Burns was born in the 1890s and so he was older than hope. Hope was born in 1903 George Burns lived to be 100 years and 10 days old. Bob Hope lived to be 100 years and 59 days   54:41 Oh,   Bill Johnson ** 54:42 so hope. Well, the story goes that in his final, final months, he was just he was pretty much bedridden and slept and slept a lot. His wife, Dolores went to his bedside. He had that 100 years 10 day mark, and she said. Well, Bob, you won the bet. You have now lived longer than George Burns. And supposedly, even though he was fat, he was like they thought he was asleep, this huge smile just curled up his lips so he heard, that's great.   Michael Hingson ** 55:18 That's great. Well, if, if you have, do you have something that you could do for us, or do you have something that you could play or something that would give us just a little flavor?   Bill Johnson ** 55:28 Um, yeah, I Well, if you, I would tell your listeners that they want to catch a little bit more. They can go to my website, Bill Johnson entertainment.com, and there's some video clips there, but I like to do is that hope would always, he would always joke about traveling to the event, and that's how I like to begin my shows with him arriving. Since I just flew in on a wing of prayer. I was on the wing because as a soldier, I wouldn't have a prayer nicely. My flight was very nice, but the plane was rather old. In fact, the pilot sat behind me wearing goggles and a scarf. This plane was so old that Lindbergh's lunch was still on the seat. The fasten seat belt sign was in Latin. To get to the washroom, you had to crawl out on the wing. But I come on, folks, I said, to get to the washroom, you had to crawl out of the wing. But hey, I don't know about you, but I have a fear of flying that dates back to my childhood. See, when I was a baby being delivered by the stork, that blasted bird dropped me from 400 feet. Yeah, he did that to stay out of the range my father's shotgun. See, Dad already had my brothers, Eenie, Meenie and Miney. When I came along, he didn't want   56:55 no moat. I get it just   Bill Johnson ** 57:00 it goes along in those words. Well, we are,   Michael Hingson ** 57:05 we are definitely going to have to just work out doing a radio show and getting you to to do a whole show, and we'll have to get some other people to go along with it. We'll figure it out. Oh, that sounds great. I would buy a lot of fun to do. Count me in. Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful to be able to talk about Bob Hope and to talk about you. Even more important, I'm sure that Bob Hope is monitoring from somewhere, but by the same token, you're here and we're here, so we do get to talk about you, which is important to do as   Bill Johnson ** 57:41 well. Well, that's very kind, Michael. I was hopeful that you would be at the rips.   Michael Hingson ** 57:47 I was planning on it because I wanted to, I want to really do the Richard diamond show. I'll, I told you I'd send you the command performance that we talked about Dick Tracy and B flat, or, for goodness sakes, is he ever going to marry Tess true heart? Oh yes. And I'll also send you the Richard diamond that we're going to do the next time I'm able to be at the rep show. It's, it's   Bill Johnson ** 58:06 really hilarious. Oh, that sounds great.   Michael Hingson ** 58:09 But I want to thank you for being here once again. Tell us your website.   Bill Johnson ** 58:14 My website is, it's my name and followed by entertain Bill Johnson, entertainment.com there's there's some video clips there, and some great pictures of some of the folks I've had the pleasure of meeting and performing with. I don't want to name drop, but just to give the the act a little more credence, pictures with Les Brown Jr. Rest his soul. I did it floored. I was able to do a show with Lee Greenwood on the island of Maui Wow, as well as perform with Wayne Newton at Fort Hood, Texas. Wayne Newton actually took over for Bob Hope with the USO when Bob just got too old to travel. Yeah, so, so that's just for a humble, humble guy. It's some incredible stories   Michael Hingson ** 59:19 well, and you're keeping some wonderful memories alive, and we'll definitely have to do something with that. But I want to thank you for for being here and again. Bill Johnson, entertainment.com, so go check it out, folks and and there's a lot of old radio out there online. We've talked about yesterday usa.com or yesterday usa.net they're the same. You can listen. You can go to reps online, R, E, P, S online, and listen to a lot of radio programs there. There are a number of people we've had Carl Amari on who several years ago, did come. Complete redos of all of the Twilight zones, and he made them scripts for radio, which was a lot of fun. Have you ever heard any of those?   Bill Johnson ** 1:00:07 I've never heard. I was a big fan of the show when it was on TV, but I never heard any of the   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:12 radio. Stacy Keach Jr is is the Rod Serling character, but, oh yeah, Twilight radio,   Bill Johnson ** 1:00:19 that's great. I will check it out,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:22 or we'll send you some that's even better. But I want to thank you for being here, and thank you all for being here with us. I hope you had fun today. It's a little bit different than some of the things that we've done on the podcast, but I think it makes it all the more fun. So thanks for being here. Please let us know what you think. Email me. I'd love to hear from you. Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love to get your thoughts wherever you're listening. Please give us a five star review. We appreciate those a lot. Tell other people about the podcast. We really would like to get as many people listening as we can, and we want to be sure to do the kinds of things you want on the podcast. So if you know anyone else who ought to be on the podcast, Bill, that goes for you as well, please introduce us. We're always looking for more people to come on unstoppable mindset that we get a chance to chat with. So hope that you'll all do that and again. Bill, I want to thank you one more time for being here. This has been fun.   Bill Johnson ** 1:01:21 This has been a blast. Michael, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:32 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. 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Livestreaming as always Friday at 2pm UK time (9am Eastern)! We'll be talking about Echohawk's latest "How Much D&D Stuff Is There Anyway?" article, discussing whether TTRPGs are a source of mental health, romance, and friendship, checking in on the Gygax Memorial Table, and more! How Much D&D Stuff Is There Anyway? Part 4: Novels Gaming Journalist Rob Wieland Passes At Age 48 Survey Says TTRPGs Bring Mental Health, Romance, and Friendship Knights of Braille screen reader accessible games list Gary Gygax Memorial Game Table for Dungeons & Dragons Fans

Thanks to Turtleback Low Vision for sponsoring this episode of Double Tap. As a thank you to the Double Tap community, Turtleback is offering 12% off your entire order with promo code DT12. Visit https://www.turtlebacklv.com to shop the full lineup!Learn why teaching Braille and screen readers in schools is still a major debate, and hear first-hand stories from listeners about accessibility tools, smart canes, NVDA, and the emotional side of adapting to vision loss.Steven Scott and Shaun Preece dive into listener emails covering the challenges of learning and using assistive technology as blind users. From the lack of screen reader and Braille training in schools to the nuances of using NVDA and Narrator with a mouse, the conversation explores both the technical and emotional journeys of vision loss.Listeners share their experiences with accessible system backup software, smart white canes like the WeWALK and the upcoming NextGuide, and how guilt and peer pressure can impact the way blind people approach Braille, daily living, and technology. Steven and Shaun discuss the balance between independence, practicality, and personal comfort, while also reacting to community insights about Meta smart glasses, Google vs Apple accessibility, and the ever-controversial Dynamic Island.Relevant LinksTurtleback Cases: https://turtlebacklv.comNathan Tech Accessible Software: https://www.nathantech.net/nathantech/software Find Double Tap online: YouTube, Double Tap Website---Follow on:YouTube: https://www.doubletaponair.com/youtubeX (formerly Twitter): https://www.doubletaponair.com/xInstagram: https://www.doubletaponair.com/instagramTikTok: https://www.doubletaponair.com/tiktokThreads: https://www.doubletaponair.com/threadsFacebook: https://www.doubletaponair.com/facebookLinkedIn: https://www.doubletaponair.com/linkedin Subscribe to the Podcast:Apple: https://www.doubletaponair.com/appleSpotify: https://www.doubletaponair.com/spotifyRSS: https://www.doubletaponair.com/podcastiHeadRadio: https://www.doubletaponair.com/iheart About Double TapHosted by the insightful duo, Steven Scott and Shaun Preece, Double Tap is a treasure trove of information for anyone who's blind or partially sighted and has a passion for tech. Steven and Shaun not only demystify tech, but they also regularly feature interviews and welcome guests from the community, fostering an interactive and engaging environment. Tune in every day of the week, and you'll discover how technology can seamlessly integrate into your life, enhancing daily tasks and experiences, even if your sight is limited. "Double Tap" is a registered trademark of Double Tap Productions Inc. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

20251016 I Love Braille Originally Broadcasted October 16, 2025, on ACB Media 5   On the third Thursday of each month, our polestar was Julie Kline who shared her experience with learning and using braille.   Sponsored by: East Bay Center for the Blind Access Archives Email Vileen Shah   Find out more at https://acb-community.pinecast.co

Christian College Sex Comedy: Part 7 Zane s Kappa Sigma Cock Legend In 30 parts, By FinalStand. Listen to the podcast at Explicit Novels.             Domestication may be our second greatest accomplishment, exceeded only by Fire       Rhaine had clearly heard something and was trying to make up her mind if she could both check it out and keep me contained when I decided to change her train of thought. I gave an exaggerated sigh, took off my towel, threw it over my shoulder, and headed to my room. "Put, put, put, put that towel, back on," Rhaine stammered. "Why? There are not supposed to be any girls out on the fifth floor at this hour. It is all mine, according to the Chancellor herself," I said over my shoulder. "Now, are you coming along or do I get to shut my door in your face?" "We don't care," Rhaine tried to recover the momentum, "we have a key." "I don't believe you," I accused her as I stopped and kept looking over my shoulder. Barbie Lynn must be right, I have a really fine ass, because that was what they were all staring at. "Well, I have one," she taunted me as she brandished it in my face, from ten feet away. I just had to beam a smile her way. Her key was silver; mine, which hung around my neck on a light chain, was bronze, as were all five of the original keys. Someone was giving out copies of my room key; what a bunch of fuck-nuts. I turned and walked right up to her, which entailed backing her into a wall since she was trying to backpedal away, her eyes torn between my fiery gaze and awakening erection. The other two made to grab me but were flummoxed by my lack of clothing. I took the opportunity to press myself into Rhaine, who was giving me the deer-in-the-headlights look, ran a hand along her jaw and curled a lock of hair. I tickled her cheek with that lock, causing Rhaine to blush and her eyes to flutter. "Thanks, Rhaine. You are helping me out more than you know. If there is anything, I mean anything, I can do for you, let me know," I softly growled with a wolfish hunger to her, but still loud enough for her companions to hear. I stepped back and strutted away again, my semi-rigid rod swaggering back and forth. "Let's go to my room," I laughed. "Weren't we supposed to hurt him if he tried anything like that?" one girl whispered. "But he was naked," responded Mercy quietly. "What would happen if, you know, we touched, IT?" "We are not going to your room with you," Rhaine shouted at me. "Fine, suit yourself, because it isn't like I'm going to avail myself of any of the three fire escapes that lead off the roof," I chortled. "Also, touching IT can lead to blindness and sterility in the elderly under twelve and children over 65," I purposely attempted to confuse them. Children over 65, sometimes I need to show the whole world that I'm not getting enough sleep. Double Dating I was still laughing at my screw-up as the door swung shut. At the last second I failed to hear the 'clunk' of the latch hitting home, though I was already to my bed, when I heard the first hesitant footfalls on steps. I was well into my morning meditative trance, lotus style, when Rhaine crested the stairs. My eyes were shut but I could tell by her sharp intake of breath where she was and what she was staring at. "Put on some clothes!" she barked. I remained blind and silent. "I said 'put on some clothes'," she repeated. I hardly had more reason to do so now than I had a second ago. "Put on your clothes," she now sounded petulant; no response. We remained silent for almost a minute, I normally remain still for ten minutes, when she said the magic word. "Would you please put some clothes on?" "Please?" I responded, cracking open one eye. "Come over right now and give me a kiss; then I'll get dressed. Otherwise, you have to wait nine more minutes while I remain in prayer." "Prayer?" whispered Mercy; strangely, I prayed to the Christian God when I meditated, drawing upon Psalms and the Songs of Solomon mostly. "I will not kiss you; you sex, sex, sex fiend!" Rhaine shouted with disgust. I closed my eye and went back into my own little dream demi-plain. "Get dressed," she insisted once more. I could keep this up for another eight and a half minutes. Finally, in frustration, she stalked up to the side of my bed, the other two in tow. "If we need to, I'll escort you straight to the gymnastics facility where Coach Gorman can administer another lesson in humility." Since I hardly felt humiliated by our last encounter, I felt no necessity to slip out of my Center. My carpets were thin cast-offs from an earlier college epoch so they hardly aided any stealth attempt. Rhaine walked up to me, weighed her options, then pushed me lightly. "Get dressed, Zane," she said, neither convincingly angry nor commanding. That didn't work so she repeated the phrase and pushed harder. The third attempt used more strength but got the same results. Rhaine decided that her problem was in the application of force, not her message, so to increase her push, she placed a knee on the bed and pushed harder. "Get dressed, she squealed as I fell over, grabbing her wrist and pulling her with me. I leapt on top of her even as she rolled from her stomach to her back. Rhaine's eyes were wide as I dove in for a kiss. Her lips were locked shut so nothing more happened. She was still struggling for words when Mercy and the other girl grabbed my arms and yanked me up and back. "Get off of me," Rhaine shouted, a little too late to be effective or believable. Experienced leg-breakers usually keep their victim's arms up or to the side; they never stick them between their thighs. As it was, I was being pulled back on my knees, pinning Rhaine's shins to the bed and my hands merely inches away from their pussies. Was it Christmas already? So much of life is about leverage of one kind or another and in this case, the leverage was all in my captor's favor, so I needed to change things up. "Let go of me!" I shouted, struggled, and slipped my hands higher up their thighs. I'm not going to win an Oscar but I did make Rhaine smile at my feigned discomfort, to the point she propped herself up and grinned wickedly at me. "Now you are going to do what I say," she gloated. "Oh, I don't think so," I grinned right back. I rolled my arms in my shoulder joints and launched my upper body toward Rhaine. For those fans of physics, when the shoulder goes down and they've made the elbow a pivot point, then the lower arm goes up, science is my friend. I rolled my fore- and middle finger into one stiff rod and prodded Mercy's and her partner's perineum. They yelped and pulled back, drawing my fingers onto their slits and along them until I flicked their slumbering clits. Their faces flushed crimson as they stumbled back and released my arms. This allowed me to descend on Rhaine unimpeded. Her mouth open in a surprised 'O', our lips met and then our tongues touched inside her mouth. I was quick enough to wrap my arms around her before her back hit the bed. "Umm" she protested inside our oral embrace. "Umm" she mumbled, before, "Umm, she ended up moaning. I was a bit curious why Mercy and the as-of-yet named accomplice weren't all over this, breaking us apart, when I felt Rhaine's legs move from beneath me, to up my sides until they crossed over my ass and locked me in. "Is that, your, I'm not sure what to call it, cock?" she whispered between kisses. How she had become oblivious of her cohorts was beyond me. "I prefer the term cock," I responded with great gentleness but with a hungry stare, "but if cock works for you," I added with a slow, steady, downward pressure with my hips upon hers. Rhaine groaned from deep within, her head lolled back, and her eyes became somewhat unfocussed. "Oh, yes," she mouthed, barely audible. "Rhaine?" Mercy inquired. "Get, get off of Rhaine," the third girl said weakly. "Please?" Since she said please, I obliged. I flipped us over so that Rhaine was on top. I'm not sure how happy the girl was because Rhaine showed no haste in dismounting me, though we did stop kissing once more. "Would you, would you please get dressed now," Rhaine panted. I would have been more impressed, and able, if Rhaine hadn't been humping me at the moment. Clearly, my cock had wedged itself right against her panty-covered love box, her lips divided and her clit rubbing along my shaft. "You really are quite beautiful," I complimented her, as I brushed some loose hairs out of her eyes. Her face softened and she gave me her first compassionate smile. She also ground down on me harder, biting her lip as she did so. The two companions decided something, technically, it could be called a rescue mission, but I never really figured out who was being rescued as they grabbed my arms that encompassed Rhaine. The unnamed girl grabbed my unresisting hand and pulled it to her chest and kept it pinned tightly there. Mercy made even less pretense of actually helping out. She grabbed my other hand and put it in her lap. This would have been minutely more believable if her skirt hadn't 'accidentally' ridden up her thighs so that when I curled in my fingers, my hand slipped between her thighs. Any guess as to what happened when I flexed them again? As best as I could tell (I was still dealing with a face full of Rhaine), she had raised her closest thigh to block her friends from seeing what she was doing and was thrusting my hand into her crotch like it was some sort of fleshy dildo, with the 'finger-tickler' function. Heavy breathing, five seconds grinding my hand in deep, fifteen seconds figuring out that I was working my fingers underneath the elastic bands of her panties, twenty-two seconds. After that, she spread her thighs open slowly and as wide as she hoped she could get away with without being caught. She remained absolutely still as I slipped two fingers underneath her virginal armor and into her cream-covered labia while rubbing my thumb against her clit from the outside. Back to Rhaine: "I hope, ugh, ugh, you have learned, ugh, ugh, ugh, oh, God, your lesson, ugh, ugh, and we won't, Oh, have to force ourselves on, oh, yeah, ugh, ugh, you again." By this time, Rhaine had soaked her panties so thoroughly that she was making squishing noises as she rode me. "If you give me one more kiss," I grinned at her, "I'll do what you want and get dressed." I've rarely seen someone so arrogant and conceited so utterly baffled about what they should do. Obviously, if she kissed me and I stood up, we would stop having 'safe sex,' but she was truly, in her heart, trying to enforce her will on me too. "Fine," I saved her, "if you kiss me until I surrender to you, I'll go quietly and do what you say all day long." At no time was it ever discussed between us what it would take to make me surrender; she never gave me the chance. She grabbed my head with both hands and proceeded to suck the air out of my lungs and use her tongue to wrestle my tongue into submission. No-Name Girl wasn't humping me like a kitten on speed or pretending I was blind and her cunny was Braille, imparting knowledge by touch; she was playing the nervous virgin. I gave the slightest nudge toward her left breast, she stopped me. I repeated the motion and she stopped me again. On the third try, she controlled my gradual migration over her breast and centered my fingertips over her nipple. Mind you, I still had a face full of Rhaine so I couldn't see what I was doing, but I've had sex on moonless nights and I've even had sex blindfolded once (we both were and it was really fun), so I had some experience at sexual navigation by touch alone. I didn't grab, grope, or shake her orb around; I palmed the breast and slowly contracted the hand up, letting the fingers and thumb bring the areolas and nipple into a tantalizing squeeze, then re-extend hand and repeat. Her nipple was pretty average but it soon made an appearance, so on the seventh stroke, I migrated my hand toward the middle of her chest. She groaned in disappointment until I tapped on two of her buttons rapidly before going back to the breast. She understood right off the bat and that shirt got unbuttoned in three seconds flat. Another squeeze and I rolled like a gentle breeze back to the sternum, under the shirt, and to her surprise, under the bra, and started tweaking the nipple and letting her breast roll in my palm. You know, it would be easier to tell my friends from my enemies if they weren't both trying to fuck me to death. I guess all my girl-'friends' do it out of love; my enemies are trying to bring me closer to God, as long as I get there from outside the campus grounds. There are a million worse ways to die and I shouldn't complain; the most important point is that I do have friends after all. Making the Most of Punishment I had barely gotten Nameless to suck two of my fingers and my thumb to slippery goodness and returned them to working her nipple when I heard someone not on the bed speak. "Do you think we have enough footage now, Iona?" Rio purred in a lethally seductive voice. "In the words of the immortal Rio Talon," Iona recited, "these bitches are toast." Dedicated readers will recall how I once claimed that I didn't live in the real world; I lived in Crazy Town. I still do. Rhaine rolled off me, into Nameless, and they clutched each other to avoid tumbling off my bed. (I have a newer, far bigger bed on order for the very reason that I'm tired of lovely ladies nearly taking headers off my favorite sexual encounter spot.) Rhaine was bosom to bosom with a girl whose shirt was wide open with one boob pulled out of her bra. My hand was yanked free in the exchange so I rapidly pushed myself into a semi-reclined position. Why was I not getting all the way up, you ask? Reference: Crazy Town - Mercy decided that being secretly included in a sex video was a huge turn-on. She started riding my two fingers like they were a mini-cock and she was going off like gangbusters. "Yes, yes, yes, yes, ahah." Mercy's whimpers kept rising in volume. "Oh, here it comes," was Barbie Lynn's assessment, based on deep personal experience with me. "Ah," Mercy continued with even more vigor. "Don't you worry, Barbie Lynn," Rio patted her on the shoulder, "she's not nearly as loud as you are." "Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh," Mercy's whimpers became hiccups as I redoubled my efforts on her clitoris. "She's no Leigh either," Opal pointed out. "Ai, ai, ai, ai, ai, ai," Mercy began yelping louder still. "What is he doing to her?" Brandi gasped in wonderment. "Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba," Mercy's diaphragm began building up a terrible tension deep inside. "Ask him to show that to you in the shower tomorrow," Opal sighed, reliving her own tactile experiences under my care. "I'm not fixated on his cock; if I can't have it, I'll settle for his hands and mouth on me whenever I can get it." "Mother Fucker!" Mercy's head rolled back and she howled at the ceiling, killing all conversation in an instant. Silence hung over the room. Mercy started to fall forward but I caught her and let her drop onto my chest. I held her close until I felt her breathing start to come under control. She pushed up enough to look at me with eyes brimming with tears. "I'm ruined," she told me in a tired, raspy voice, then put her face into my shoulder and began wailing uncontrollably. I stroked her back and hair with my free hand. My other hand was covered in Mercy's fluids, and while some chicks might get off on being covered in their love juice, I doubted Mercy was into that kink; and besides, she was in her school uniform. "You are fine," I cooed. "No one is showing that video to anyone so you are safe. You are one of us and we'll protect you." That last bit was pulled 'outta my ass' so to speak. Every one of my friends up here had their own idea what our relationship was about and I could hardly speak for any one of them, much less all of us. "Speak for yourself, Num-nuts; I'm going to sink these skanks," Rio growled. "Rio, please," I requested in a calm and tender voice. She glared back with ill-concealed rage. "Do you have any idea what these bitches have been doing to me and the other freshmen?" Rio spat back. "Only the vaguest. And I am not saying they shouldn't make amends but there are two things we should consider," I began. It is a testament to how close Rio and I had grown that she permitted me to continue talking uninterrupted. "If we turn them in, we are precisely the type of people they think we are, immoral degenerates. This is supposed to be fun and liberating; if we start breaking people because they cut loose, actually express themselves and have fun, we become what they are and what we despise. I'll leave first," I told her. "Also, as strange as it sounds, probably more to you and me than anyone else on campus, we are Christians," I continued. Rio scoffed and clearly thought I'd lost my mind, or sold out. "You don't bend, Rio. You know right and wrong, and while you often choose wrong, you don't make excuses about it, and I've never had a better friend because I know you mean what you say and say what you mean, no matter how cutting," I explained. "You have clearly lived a socially deprived life, Rio taunted me, but her words cracked under her emotional turmoil ", if I'm what you consider to be a good friend, you stupid bitch moron cocksucker." "Let's put it to a vote," Iona volunteered the notion. "I think that's a good idea," Barbie Lynn stated, with Brandi and Opal agreeing. "Fine, whatever," grumbled Rio. "Okay. We are voting on whether or not we use the video as leverage against Rhaine, Mercy and, I looked to the nameless girl. "Joy," she provided. "Joy Jefferson." "Okay, and Joy Jefferson," I finished. "I vote 'no'." "I vote 'No'," Barbie Lynn went first, but Iona was right behind her with the same vote. "I'm actually with Rio on this one," Brandi said. "They are trying to get rid of Zane. I vote 'Yes'." "I vote 'Yes' as well," Opal agreed. "They shouldn't even be in our dorm or in Zane's room." The most surprised person in the room was now Rio. She clearly expected all the girls who had 'fallen under my spell' to do what I said, leaving her to be in the too familiar spot of being the Odd Woman Out. "I vote 'Yes' for both those reasons," she beamed hate at Rhaine, "plus I am Evil and I want your parents' heads to explode when they see you humping a guy in his dorm room while your lesbian buddies hold him down." "It is a tie," Iona pointed out. "What do we do now?" "It isn't a tie," I countered. "Not every FFU student has voted." "Oh, fuck no," Rio snapped. "They don't get a vote. I'll run and get Cappy and she'll sink their asses." "Okay," I told her. "I'm sure you can relate to having your fate boned by forces beyond your control. You go out and get as many people as you think are necessary to get them expelled and possibly tossed out by their parents. Take your time; there is nowhere they can run." Rio got halfway down the stairs before she came storming back up in a fury that would make a tornado proud. "Move, Bitch," she screamed at Mercy. I pushed Mercy out of the way because I knew what was coming while she had no clue. I scooted to the edge of the bed closest to where Rio was charging. Slap! Oh, fuck, that hurt. "You motherfucking, cock-smoking, son of a bitch," she seethed. Slap! resounded from my other cheek. I caught a glimpse of Iona coming to my aid but she was corralled by Barbie Lynn in time. Opal looked concerned and Brandi was totally stunned. "Don't you ever talk to me like that," she screamed, Slap! "I am not the Better Person. People fuck with me and I make them burn! Do you hear me?" "I understand," I responded with quiet, sincere intensity. Rio hauled off to hit me again and stopped. "Give them to me, Zane. Don't fight me on this. You'll be sorry," she threatened. "I'm doing this because I am your friend, Rio. From 6:00 a.m. on Day One, it has been you and me, and in four years when we earn our release, it will still be you and me," I related. "I don't fucking need you or your fucking pity, Shit For Brains," she growled. "Did it ever occur to you that I'm doing this for me, not you?" I explained. "Look around you right now; mostly really special people but none of them have lost their family and been sent off to live in exile." "My family is not dead, Zane," she replied, her anger misting away like fog before the Sun. "They may live and breathe but you lost them some time ago just the same," I prodded her. Rio said nothing for the longest time, then a lone tear escaped down her cheek. "Sorry, Bro," she stroked my tenderized cheek. "I'm seriously awake now, if that's any consolation," I smirked. "Smart ass," she chuckled back. "Are they okay now?" I overheard Brandi asking the other three girls on my side. "Oh, they are fine, Brandi," drawled Barbie Lynn. "They are like feuding twin brother and sister, somewhat incestuous, mind you, but they are about as close to kin, without being kin, as anyone I've ever seen, save Christina and Heaven." "Rio?" I requested once more. "Fine, the dumb bunnies can vote," she snarled, "but I am praying to God they screw it up anyway." "How do you ladies vote?" I looked to Rhaine but addressed them all. "Um, 'No'," Rhaine said quietly. When no one said anything, Joy rapidly agreed. That left everyone looking at Mercy not that her vote mattered to the final outcome; Rhaine and company were safe by at least one vote no matter what. "I," sniff, "okay, yes," gak, "I mean No!" she corrected, then added, "thank you." "The Noes have it; the video will be archived, not to be seen again until my funeral, which might convince Rhaine to let me live in peace," I teased. The three seniors sighed with relief. "Now for the punishment," Barbie Lynn pronounced. "What?" Rhaine blanched. "I thought we covered that. Are you going back on your word?" "No," Barbie Lynn smiled. "The video is out of bounds but there is still the matter of this being my dorm and me finding you in one of my student's rooms sexually molesting him. Re-read the Handbook if you doubt me or my authority, Rhaine." "We were told to be here by Dean Gorman," Rhaine countered. "Coach Gorman told you to go into Zane's room, sit on his lovely piece of male reproductive perfection, and ride it like you were in the Pony Express?" Barbie smirked. Rhaine, Joy, and Mercy realized that they had no plausible defense and too many witnesses. "What about you all being here?" Rhaine reposed desperately. "We heard his cries for help," Rio beamed. "I think Zane's cries went something like, 'Help, help, I'm trying to remain pure but these scantily clad babes are tearing off their clothes and partaking of my muscular, well-toned man-flesh'." "But that's a lie," Rhaine wailed. "Rhaine, we just salvaged your college career, if not your entire life, and you are worried about Rio's colorful recreation of events?" I inquired. "What is the punishment?" I looked to Barbie. "Spanking," she declared. "Three swats from each of us should do it - barehanded." Rhaine, Joy, and Mercy looked unhappy but not horrified. They looked decidedly less happy when Rio perked up. Morphing Intentions "Iona goes first," Rio said gleefully. "And it has to be on the bare, naked bottom, no panties; three spanks from each of us on each of you, no more than three minutes between the first and last." "No way," Rhaine snapped. She moved to the edge of the bed and stood up. "Fine. Let's go to Gorman's office right now," Barbie Lynn declared. "Zane, you come along as soon as you get dressed. "I'll do it," Mercy sniffled. "I'll take my spanking." "Me too," Joy joined in. Rhaine looked around for some lifeline but there was none. "Very well; let's get this over with," Rhaine conceded. The three girls took off their panties, which probably needed replacing anyway, turned around, bent over, and put their hands on the bed. "No, no, no," Rio denounced their efforts. "All three of you, on the bed, hands and knees with your knees at the edge." When Rhaine looked ready to object, "You agreed to this, Ladies. It is this or else!" The Condemned looked at one another, then slowly obeyed, but Rio wasn't satisfied. She pushed their tushes around and forced them to spread their legs farther apart and generally harangued them until she was happy with the arrangements. It didn't take a 'Doctor Ruth' to figure out what Rio was really doing but the three victims, plus Brandi and Iona, had no idea what they were in store for. "Iona, you first; give them something to remember you by. I'm next, followed by Barbie Lynn, Brandi, Opal, and Zane bats clean-up," (snicker) Rio directed. Barbie Lynn walked down the line, lifting up each skirt onto their back while I scrambled off to get dressed. (Okay, I walked six feet to my wardrobe and dresser.) Iona stood somewhat timidly behind Rhaine, took a deep breath, and, did a rather lukewarm smack. As soon as it fell Iona flinched, and she looked over to a glaring Rio. The next smack was hard enough to make Rhaine give a startled jump but not really cruel. The third, on the other cheek, was about as forceful. Iona stepped down the line and administered her share of the punishment. When she shuffled over to Rio, she looked embarrassed. "I'm sorry, Rio. I'm not sure about all of this. I don't want to hurt them," she explained. "It's cool," Rio soothed her. "You did exactly what I wanted you to do. Now," and whispering followed. Iona shrugged, raided my towel shelf, and headed downstairs quickly. Now it was Rio's turn. She walked up behind Rhaine, knelt between her legs, pressing them apart. "What the, Rhaine began. "Shut up and take it!" Rio growled with such menace that Rhaine turned forward and lowered her head in shame. When Rio placed a hand against Rhaine's rump, it wasn't in anger, though, but to rub it softly. "Very soft," Rio purred sensually. "Did Iona hurt you?" "Ah, not too bad," Rhaine stammered, confused by Rio's sudden affection. "I see a handprint," Rio told her. She was seeing something the rest of us were missing was all I could think. She leaned in and kissed that invisible mark, which caused more of a reaction than any of Iona's slaps. "Hey, what are you doing?" Rhaine squawked. Slap! "Ow!" cried Rhaine. She tried to pull away but Rio grabbed her hips with two hands and pulled back. "You agreed to this," Rio threatened her. Rhaine shuddered but she stopped trying to escape. "Are you going to behave so we can get this over with or do we need to make up an excuse for why we missed breakfast?" "Fine, fine, let's get this over with," Rhaine said dejectedly. "Good girl," Rio cooed. She began massaging Rhaine's right ass cheek with one hand while holding tight with her left hand on Rhaine's left hip. Rio placed a kiss on the cleft between the thigh and ass; Rhaine gave a tiny gasp, twitched, and tried to incrementally pull away. Rio was having none of that. "Bad girl," she murmured, but there was no slap this time. Instead, she slithered between Rhaine and Joy and whispered into Rhaine's ear. "Would you please get on your elbows, Sweet Rhaine?" I'd have bet money that Rhaine would have shot off her mouth if not physically resisted, but Rio was Mistress of the Moment and Rhaine meekly complied. Rio was so dominant, she even kissed Rhaine's ear and nipped the earlobe before resuming her station at Rhaine's posterior. "Is this punishment?" Brandi whispered. "Just you wait and see, Brandi," was my reply. Rio reached out with her hands, separated her ass cheeks, and soaked in the view. Right when Rhaine started to look underneath herself, Rio pushed her face into her cunt and made a loud sucking sound. "Ah!" Rhaine gasped, startled yet aroused. "Umm," Rio slurped, as she rubbed her face deep into Rhaine's Love box. I recognized the tongue technique of darting deep into the cunt, alternating with a vigorous suction of the clitoris. Instead of trying to get away, Rhaine went from resting on her elbows down to her chest touching the bed, her arms crossed, and her head resting on them. Slap! "Ow!" Rhaine whined, "That hurt." Rio was too busy giving Rhaine's cunt a world class swirly so it fell to Barbie Lynn to explain. "That's why it is called punishment, Rhaine," she said, but Rhaine was already moaning in ecstasy. A thin sheen of sweat had just started covering Rhaine's exposed flesh when Iona returned with a wicker basket full of wet cloths. I was buttoning my shirt and enjoying the show when I caught Joy and Mercy studying Rhaine with some concern and exchanging worried glances with one another. Rio seriously worked over Rhaine's cunt for another minute, then launched one more stinging slap. This time Rhaine screamed into her arm instead of out loud and didn't protest. Rio stood up and kissed the small of Rhaine's back. "You have one hot cunt, Bitch. I look forward to tearing another piece of you off later," Rio told her, voice heavy with heated passion. "Iona, towel." Iona tossed her a towel; Rio caught it one handed and used it to wipe off her face. She smiled at Barbie as the blonde came up and knelt behind Rhaine. Barbie Lynn's first spank was hardly brutal but it did get Rhaine's attention. She then began kissing each cheek as her hands parted the Senior Class President's (presumptive) ass cheeks. Her attentions wandered between the twin sets of firm muscle, her tongue flicking along Rhaine's pink, puckered star. "Gak!" Rhaine gasped. She followed it up with a serious tremor throughout her body. Barbie Lynn glanced over to me, gave me a devilish grin, and flexed her eyebrows in sheer delight. Barbie returned to Rhaine's rump and set to work using her extensive skills on her cunt, parting her lips with the fingers of one hand, pinching her clit between the thumb and forefingers of the other hand, and licking along her entire slit with her tongue. Between Joy's thighs, Rio was putting on a performance that would make Jenna Jameson proud, maybe even envious. Apparently her teenage exploration of the Arizona nightlife had not been the waste of time her parents thought it was. I doubt it mattered to Joy, who was already pushing her ass against Rio's face. On this victim, instead of spanking, Rio was biting her ass hard enough to leave marks and make Joy squeal. Two minutes into this round, Rhaine lost it and squirted all over Barbie Lynn's face. This was apparently her first squirter because Barbie tried to back away from the eruption, which only guaranteed that it splashed all over her body from eyebrows to both bodacious breasts. "Rhaine," Barbie Lynn scolded her fellow senior, "you could have warned me." Rhaine didn't respond; her face nestled down on her arms and her whole body wracked with waves of orgasmic bliss and her lungs fighting for air - she was in no state to respond. As Barbie stripped off her shirt, I gave her a washcloth and one of my white shirts. I tossed Rio her second cloth of the morning and motioned Brandi forward. "She's, she's still having her orgasm," Brandi questioned. "That's why this is called punishment," I explained with a knowing smile. Brandi opened her mouth in surprise, followed by understanding, and then a race to get between Rhaine's legs and take her first lick of Rhaine's quivering quim. "Ah, ah, ah,  Barbie Lynn, I've, Rhaine finally articulated ", never done that before, I swear. I am sorry." That was all she could muster; right after that, her fists crumpled up the quilt on my bed and she bit down on the folds in an attempt to stifle the increasingly slutty moans Brandi was bringing forth. Barbie Lynn decided not to put on my shirt, maybe not comprehending that her lacy beige bra had been rendered virtually transparent by Rhaine's ejaculate. Besides myself, Opal was also fixated on the view of her pendulous orbs and gorgeous engorged nipples. The blonde took a different approach with Joy. She lifted up the girl's hips, elevated her to the point Barbie could lick her from pubic mound to ass and back again. I knew Barbie Lynn was strong, but I'd never exploited that quality in that manner. I made a note for experimentation tomorrow night. "No, no, no, no," Joy repeated in a desperate effort to fight off the sensations that were pulsating in an irresistible current surging up from the wellspring of her womanhood. "I can't do this," she sobbed. "Lord, please save me." I hurried around the bed and slid beside Joy's head. I took her by the chin and made eye contact. "Joy, if you really want this to stop, it will end right now," I promised her, though I was sure I was getting a dirty, if unseen, glare from Rio. "You gave your word but if you honestly believe you have been punished enough, take my hand and I'll escort you out of here." I offered my hand to her and she stared at it. "Get me out of here," she panted, tears trickling down her cheeks and gathering at her chin. "No, you get yourself out of here. Give up and agree to leave Mercy and Rhaine to take the punishment you agreed to." "Take my hand, abandon them, and I'll clean you up and escort you back to the fifth floor. That will be the end of it and nothing more will be said," I defined my terms. Barbie Lynn was still going to town on Joy's clit and the poor victim so desperately wanted to escape her nearly impossible battle with her own incendiary sexuality, which was no longer begging for release but tearing its prison down brick by brick. Joy almost reached my hand but fell short at the last moment. "God forgive me," she wept. He breathing began spiraling out of control. "Ugh, ugh, ugh, oh, please, stop, I beg, beg you." Divine intervention or not, Barbie Lynn's session ended and Joy was given breathing room. She even had a moment to look up at me and give a weak smile as if she had gained some small triumph. Her self-deception was made evident to her the moment Brandi exploded onto her scene. What the girl lacked in technique and experience, she more than compensated with raw, hungry enthusiasm. Joy's eyes grew as wide as limpid saucers, "Oh, No!" she wailed. Gurgling came next, and finally, "This can't be happening. God Forgive Me!" and what may have been her first sexual climax. She did grab my hands then and pulled them to her. Her face was slack, her mouth open and panting, and her eyes had this far-off look, so I lowered my lips to her face and licked her lips before settling my lips on hers and basically coaxing her tongue as it struggled to deal with several more waves of orgasm. I kept her kiss going with the occasional rest break so she could continue to breath. "Thank you," she whispered to me as she started to stabilize. "We FFU have to stick together," I both reminded her and boggled her shaken mind at the same time. Half an hour ago she had no doubt I didn't belong here and wasn't really FFU material, male and immoral. In her regard for me, I could see her blind acceptance of traditional FFU dogma weakening. "I've got to go now; it is almost my time to start punishing Rhaine," I softly informed Joy. Her hormone-trampled mind struggled to grasp that she was halfway through her torture. Brandi would finish soon, then it would be Opal, and then it would me, a male; me, face first at the gateway to her sacred womb. Her virginity would be spared from extinction by my will alone and I could tell that scared the hell out of her. She'd been chosen for her belief that Zane was a corrupter and that extraordinary measures were necessary to drive him out, no matter how sinful they may appear, and now she was face down and bare ass up, surrounded in his room by him and his friends. The most terrifying thing of all may well have been that we had made her feel more like a woman than she'd ever felt before. Where Rhaine had divorced her feelings and pleasure from her grasp of reality, and Joy was beating herself up every step of the way, Mercy had completely submerged herself in the transformation her body was going through. Mercy had already experienced one orgasm and come crashing down into doubt and self-loathing, only to be shown that her life wasn't over and no one thought the worst of her for actually enjoying sex. She didn't feel like a tramp or a slut; she felt alive and burning bright, so when Rio gave her that first hard spank, she'd moaned instead of crying out, and when the 'felon' gave her first few licks, Mercy reached under her body with one arm and started rubbing her slit in tandem with Rio's face dance. Even Rio's snicker didn't dampen her ardor, and when Rio took Mercy's hand and pushed two of Mercy's fingers deep in, Mercy thrust back with her hips so that her fingers touched her hymen. When Rio pulled Mercy's hand out of her twat, Mercy whimpered in need, but when she felt her fingers go into a different damp, warm orifice, she stopped, and when Rio's mouth started sucking the juices off of those fingers and twirling her tongue around each individual digit, Mercy couldn't help herself from wiggling her hips like a bitch in heat. With the fingers clean, Rio inserted them, along with two of her own fingers, back into Mercy's cunt, extremely stretching it out. Rio then came around the far side of Mercy, away from the others, and whispered into her ear. Later she related what was said: "You like that don't you?" Rio teased. Mercy nodded vigorously. "Come to Zane's room tonight and I'll fuck you all night long. You'll be my bitch. Do you understand that?" Another vigorous nod. "I've got to leave you soon to these other girls and Zane, but don't you forget you are mine now; my property, my mate. Don't make me hunt you down and put my brand on your ass, clear?" One final, excited nod. I live in Crazy Town. On par with that information was the fact that I had promised the night to Heaven and I had no clue how in the hell that was going to work out. My bed barely held three people, four was asking too much. If you made one of those people Heaven with her secret, the term 'impossible' came to mind. At the start of the line, Opal met Rhaine. She landed two very loud, wet smacks on Rhaine's behind, causing the senior to rock forward. Having gotten most of the 'cover story' (the spanking) out of the way, Opal rolled Rhaine onto her back with only the weakest of protests. She started a few gentle teases and kisses with her lips to Rhaine's cunt while Rhaine's legs dangled off the floor. Once she got Rhaine back into an erotic state, Opal began lifting Rhaine's thighs up and out until she'd pushed Rhaine's knees almost back to her breasts and feeding like a ravenous succubus on every inch of thigh, cunt, ass, and stomach. Opal hadn't been gentle with Brandi, but she'd been absolutely gentle, kind, and caring compared to the treatment Rhaine was getting. Rhaine held it in as long as possible but when she cut loose, she cut loose in a big way. Her fists pounded the bed repeatedly, her head swept back and forth, and her lower torso kept thrusting off the bed and into Opal's mouth, lips, and tongue. "Damn!" she screamed through clenched teeth as her body expended one last spasm. Opal succeeded in catching most of Rhaine's fluid eruption, rolled the heavily panting Rhaine to one side, and administered the proscribed last spank. "You're up, Zane," she winked with a smile, before cleaning her face and moving on to the nearly as devastated Joy. I settled between Rhaine's legs and began administering kisses. "Please, Zane," she begged, "it hurts. I'm so sore. Please just spank me." "Sorry, I can't do that," I told her sternly. Rhaine closed her eyes and muttered some kind of prayer, though she made no attempt to shield her body from me. I doubt she even knew I was lying beside her until my first kiss played upon her eyelids. "You are not going to, to me?" she inquired with a desperate hope. "No. I'm going to spank you so hard you can't sit for a week," I threatened, "unless I forget my three-minute time limit. I can't imagine what would possibly distract me, though." It took Rhaine's sexually fatigued mind a moment to catch on but when she did, she clasped her hands on either side of my face and kissed me with an inspired intensity. I let my fingers play along her breastbone and stroke her breasts through her shirt and bra. About a minute into this little game, I discovered Rio leaning over us, clearing her throat. "This monster made us jump out a second-story window," she stared intently. Fear crept back into Rhaine's eyes as she glanced from Rio to me. "I am biting her tongue, I promise," I grinned. "I'm not joking, Zane," Rio warned me. "Fine," I groaned. "Rhaine, roll toward me," I instructed, as I propped myself up, and she reluctantly rolled toward me. I put a hand on her hip, hiked up her skirt and rolled her farther to me until I got a good look at her rump. "Rio, take a look at this, please," I motioned to Rhaine's ass. Rhaine blushed and lowered her head. I doubt having her ass naked and on display on my bed was what she intended or even imagined possible when she got up this morning. I ran a hand along her spine to the cleft between her cheeks and squeezed the upper one tightly. "This is a thing of beauty," I told Rio, but clearly wanting Rhaine thinking about what was being said. Rio knew me too well to think I'd turn that ass cheek red so she took the other path. Rio reached out and stroked it too. "Okay, Zane; it is damn sexy," Rio acknowledged grudgingly. I took Rhaine's hand in my own and placed it on her side, just below the ribs, and led it in a wandering trip to her lower back, then to the cheek I'd displayed to Rio. "See, Rhaine, you have a fantastic ass. God knew what he was doing when he made you," I told her. "It is a pity we can't see you in shorts or a bikini from time to time." "That is sinful and leads men into the Sin of Lust," Rhaine said with absolute conviction. "This is the work of the Devil, not God." Rio ground her teeth but I grinned. "Did God create the male peacock?" I questioned, while I kept hold of Rhaine's hand and stroking her ass from tailbone to the dip into the bottom of her sopping wet cunt. "Yes," she cautiously replied, her breath coming faster and faster. "Yet we don't run around putting them in garbage bags because they are enticing to the eye," I reasoned. "You make it sound like it isn't a man's fault that he can't control his own impulses, even though he is supposed to lead his household." "God made you beautiful and he made me with will enough to look at you and respect any decision you make about your body," I hammered away. "I'm not going to say I don't want to have sex with you because that would be a lie, but the important thing to me is that you took a Purity Pledge and I have to respect that." Rhaine had nothing to say at that moment. I was clearly a randy bastard who preyed upon good Christian girls and tricked them into surrendering to my dark desires. "You are trying to trick me," she panted, while I leaned in and kissed her neck and ear. "Rhaine, I've been trying to avoid you since we first met. You are the one who cornered me in my dorm," I pointed out. "You came into my room when you knew I was either naked or getting dressed. You chose to crawl onto my bed when I was sitting down, meditating and clearly naked. I was hoping my blatant sexuality would make you leave me alone, not attack me." "Don't blame Rhaine," Rio joked to me. "Rhaine, Zane's like sex candy," she directed to Rhaine. "You won't be the first bunch of Christian bitches we've had to rescue Zane from. It is not his fault; it is ours. He's masculine, kind, and available. You know that he has been in three fights since coming here; right?" "Uh, uh, uh, yes," Rhaine panted. "It makes him dangerous, he's a man." "Really?" Rio chortled. "Two of those fights were to save me from you ladies, and he stopped fighting the moment I was safe. The third fight was caused because two of our girls were being set upon by those University guys and Zane put his body in the way, they hit him first." "I, is this true?" she said with a heavy breath. "Ask Mercy to tell you the truth, not what they've told her to say. Ask Cappadocia about that first fight and the fight off campus. You may not like Iona but she wouldn't lie to you and she knows how that second fight started," Rio sounded so reasonable. I slowly rolled over onto Rhaine while I kissed her neck and shoulders. "Ah, ew, yes," Rhaine cooed passionately. "Tricking me," she sighed but that didn't stop her from slowly moving her arms and legs around me. "Do you want to be on top?" I whispered to Rhaine. "I, uh," she stammered, then nodded. We rolled to the very foot of the bed and started a serious make-out session. I began rubbing down her mid- and lower back for a bit before moving to her ass cheeks and giving them a firm squeeze. "That doesn't hurt too much, does it?" I asked compassionately. "Umm, no, feels good," she managed to get out between kisses. "Okay," Rio smirked as she tapped Rhaine's shoulder. "Tap out; your time is up. Now get off my bitch (meaning me). He's got two more of you to go through before we can leave." "Huh? What?" Rhaine sounded confused, then, "it's over?" Her eyes betrayed how little she wanted this to stop right now. "Good," Rhaine sighed sadly. She began sliding down my body. When she saw that I was rising slower than she was receding, Rhaine waited until our lips met before continuing. We remained lip-locked until we stood up, my hands cupping her ass (now covered by her skirt once more) and her arms wrapped around my neck. "Have you learned your lesson?" I inquired when we finally came up for air. Rhaine looked at me for several seconds, unsure what to say. "Joy's waiting," Barbie Lynn reminded us both. Rhaine let her hands drop to her sides and stepped back. Barbie Lynn pressed something into her hands which turned out to be a fresh pair of panties. "I doubt you want to put on your old pair," Barbie Lynn pointed out, "and these are fresh out of the bag." "Thank you, Barbie Lynn," Rhaine said with embarrassment. "Here is a washcloth," Iona added as she handed one over. "You can go behind my wardrobe to change," I offered. The thought of any of the girls going behind a veil to avoid exposing themselves as they cleaned up and put on underwear might appear pointless, but after everything those three had gone through, handing them back a piece of their dignity was a kindness we could all afford. Rhaine disappeared from sight and I turned to Joy. Opal was still giving her a seriously hard time despite the time limit expiring and gave me a wink as she went to displace Brandi on Mercy. I put a knee on the bed and lifted Joy up. She squealed but didn't squirm and I carefully maneuvered her onto her feet. I held her tight while she reoriented. "Are you okay?" I voiced my concern. Joy gave a brief nod. "Are you ready for your last punishment?" Joy looked me in the eyes, then gave the tiniest acknowledgement. "Now stand on your tiptoes, put one hand around my neck, and use the other to hold up the back of your skirt while you press tightly against me." When she had done as I directed, I looked deep into her eyes. I spanked her cheeks, left-right-left, drawing forth a sharp breath, gritted teeth, and tears brimming in her eyes. I had not been gentle but sometimes a person needs punishment to forgive themselves for feeling good about something they've been told is wrong. That was the pop psychology I was running on at the moment. If I got it wrong, forgive me; I'm only eighteen. No sooner had Barbie Lynn and Iona supplied Joy with her parting gifts did Mercy howl. Her further outbursts were muted by her grabbing my much abused pillow and using it as a muzzle. Her body tensing and recoiling time and again was both frightening and erotic combined, and I was suddenly trying to remember if anyone close by knew CPR. Opal fell back on her ass and looked at the rest of us. "That was wild," she smiled, and licked her lips, "but I think I need to go change." I helped Opal stand and we exchanged a rich yet messy, sticky kiss. "Best intervention ever," Opal joked with me, then skipped off down the stairs. I turned to Mercy and plopped down beside her. A quick examination showed a sweaty, tired young lady with a sensual smile on her lips. "I think she's had enough, but" , I swatted her ass lightly three times and stood up. "Breakfast anyone?" Dorm Life, Heaven, and Mercy too. We were late heading out of the dorm so, under Rhaine's watchful control, the group jogged toward the dining hall. As we made the final approach, Rhaine grabbed my arm. Rhaine, Joy, Mercy and I slowed down while the rest headed in ahead of us. "What are we going to say?" Rhaine hissed in a panicky voice. "I was childish, blocked the door, and you caught me sneaking down a fire escape," I suggested. "You will get in trouble," Rhaine said with utter confusion. "I can take it better than you can," I related. "I don't understand. Why are you, all of you, doing this for us?" Joy asked. "Because," I snorted, "we are the good guys." They clearly thought I was a nut but going inside cut off the conversation. "Besides, I need to do something that's going to be rough on both of us." The Smartest Girl on Campus Looking back on things, that first Monday when it was only Rio and I realizing what I was became the only time I entered the Dining Hall or Assembly without being noticed. First I had been a novelty, now I was the freakish center of the storm. I sort of held my reactions in reverse; the hateful looks my enemies gave me made me laugh while the hopeful looks my allies gave me scared the hell out of me. I was dwelling on that quirk in my nature when I reached the spot my gang was sitting; we had our own location and the majority of the school had given it their blessing. Weird? Only the Class Presidents had their own preordained spots. Speaking of which, "Hey, Jungle Boy," Rio teased in such a dangerous way that I felt my balls crawl up into my body. "Iona nominated you for Freshman Class President." "Ha, ha, ha," I joked dryly, then looked to Iona. She couldn't meet my gaze. "Iona, why? Why didn't you at least ask me first?" "I knew you would say 'no'," she replied softly, then she looked up with more determination, "but I know you would be a great Class President." "Don't sweat it, Zane," Rio chuckled. "You need fifty signatures to be on the ballet." "He has seventy-two," Iona informed us. "Gak! How long have I been out there?" I gasped. "Nine minutes," Iona smirked bashfully. I looked around the room, humbled and disturbed. You have to remember that there weren't 250 freshmen and nearly one-third had decided that I should lead them; the faculty must be having kittens. I was thinking that over when a previous bit of theater came back to bite me in the ass. A girl I vaguely knew, Arielle, a fellow freshman, put her hand on my shoulder and waited. It took me a second to clue in but thankfully she and the others were patient. I put my hand on top of hers. "Thank you," I told her. She smiled and moved away, immediately replaced by another freshman. Over 80 freshmen followed and I could feel the disgust emanating from the head table were Chancellor Bazz sat. Friends like Brandi and Dove came over to congratulate me on my nomination but I realized my more savvy friends stayed away. They knew the struggle I was in for and the very real possibility that even if I was elected, Chancellor Bazz would simply kick me out. I'd be going to them for advice and counsel. I guess I might actually have to ask Iona who the Sophomore and Junior Class Presidents were. In fact, "Iona, who are the other Class Presidents?" I inquired. "They would be those haughty bitches in pleated skirts," Rio interrupted. "Funny like a crutch," I replied snidely. "Besides, that describes about half the girls here." "These would be the ones avoiding you like the plague," Rio snickered. "Here you go," Iona intervened, showing me two pictures on her phone. "Besides, you aren't that alone; the Science Club and Botany Club both support you." "Whoop-de-do," Rio huffed. "What are they going to do? Send nasty e-mails and throw clods of dirt on our opponents?" "Could I meet with them?" I asked Iona, ignoring Rio's snide asides. "They've both agreed to help with your Solarium," Iona shot a 'that will show you' to Rio, "and you already know the head of the Science Club but I can set up a meeting if you like." "Make it so," I commanded loftily. "Zane, if you become Class President Iona will be your Personal Assistant, but what does that make me?" Rio inquired. "My House Assassin," I suggested. Rio seemed to like the idea, it fit with her violent tendencies, but she wanted an explanation. "You are almost always underestimated, and like me, you have nothing to lose." "House Assassin," Rio mulled it over. "Okay, but I prefer the title 'Ninja Reaper Angel'." Rio and I exchanged looks; hers mischievous and mine one of amusement. "N R A"

Criado pelo francês Louis Braille, o sistema de leitura e escrita tátil usa pontos em relevo para representar letras, números e símbolos, permitindo autonomia e acesso à educação. A professora Geni de Abreu, do Instituto Benjamin Constant, conversou com a nossa reportagem sobre a importância do método na vida de pessoas cegas e como ele se mantém essencial mesmo após dois séculos de existência.Reportagem: Raissa LimaEdição: Thiago Kropf

INTROTease today's topic: “What's your weird flex?”Define “weird flex” — something unique or unusual you can do that most people can'tHosts introduce their own weird flexes:Launa: Can fold a fitted sheetKevin: Will confidently correct factual inaccuracies (especially about Tampa Bay)J.R.: Can expertly back up a boat trailer SEGMENT 1 – Listener Calls: AmandaAmanda from New Port Richey calls inCan back in a 40-foot horse trailer anywhereBut ironically struggles with a boat trailerCurrently towing and navigating a Starbucks parking lotCommentary from hosts:Major props for horse trailer handlingBanter about how tricky boat trailers can beSafety reminder: hands-free driving SEGMENT 2 – Listener Call: Margot and Twins Margot calls in with her 7-year-old twins, Phoebe and CassidyPhoebe: Can do flat flips in gymnasticsCassidy: Can read Braille and has almost finished a whole bookHosts react with excitement and encouragementGratitude to Margot and family for tuning in every morning SEGMENT 3 – Text Responses JR reads listener texts:Can say the alphabet backwardsClaims Elvis Presley is their second cousinVerified with family researchGrandmother and Elvis's grandfather were siblings61 years old and has never had a hangoverHosts react with surprise and amusementCommentary on which flex is the most impressiveSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

K-man plays some new Jackie Hill Perry, 1k Phew and Austin Joyce. For our flashback we take a trip to Japan. Playlist: "Okayyy We Back (ft. Mark Morrison)" by Andy Mineo "Never Be The Same" by Austin Joyce "Miracles (ft. Lecrae)" by KB "Sidewalk Psychology (ft. Ryland Junior)" by The Profit "Stand (ft. R.kitect & Griffin)" by Kaboose "Yet" by 1K Phew "HUMBLE BEAST! (ft. Propaganda, SIV & Braille)" by DJ Mykael V "2 Much 4 The Brain (ft. Jabs, River, Th3rdkind, Ryland Junior & Sundance)" by Krosswerdz "Mind Blast (ft. m1L & J.Solo)" by MotionPlus / MP Ancient "Get Up and Go (ft. Duprae)" by Q-Flo "Oxygen (ft. Jonnie 3:16)" by Young Faith "Anti-Social" by Jackie Hill Perry "W.U.L.A. (What U Looking At?)" by A.I. the Anomaly "The Real (ft. Speech)" by Yoshi Blessed "Flowers (ft. Madison Ryann Ward)" by Joshua Luke Smith "Today (ft. Shad)" by The Procussions Vote on the playlist at www.definitionradio.com/show/970 Leave your requests/shout-outs on our socials www.facebook.com/DefinitionRadio www.instagram.com/DefinitionHH www.twitter.com/DefinitionHH www.krosswerdz.com

This week we celebrate the 2025 Blind Australian of the Year Awards with a range of interviews and speeches featuring Vision Australia Radio's own Jason Gipps, and Blind Australian of the Year MC Karan Nagrani. Jason and Karan take you through the night featuring conversations with Reggie Bird, Tash from Braille and Tactile Signs Australia, award winner announcements and more.Support this Vision Australia Radio program: https://www.visionaustralia.org/donate?src=radio&type=0&_ga=2.182040610.46191917.1644183916-1718358749.1627963141See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's National Braille Week and we're speaking to the team at Dot, hearing about their tactile graphics and multi-line braille display, the Dot Pad X.

Apple hat in iOS 18 und 26 jeweils viele neue Braillefeatures eingebaut. In dieser neuen Folge gehe ich neue Einstellungen durch und zeige die Verbesserungen bei der Braille Bildschirmeingabe und stelle das Feature Braille Zugriff vor.

Louis Braille ha inventà il 1825 sco scolar da 16 onns la scrittira da puncts. In alfabet che resguarda l'ortografia, l'interpuncziun e perfin ils accents franzos. En sia nova scrittira èsi pussaivel da scriver ils bustabs cun be sis puncts. A Turitg datti la Biblioteca svizra per persunas tschorvas, per persunas impedidas da la vesida e per persunas ch'han difficultads da leger (SBS). Maximalmain 300 cudeschs pon vegnir transcrits mintg'onn. Ed i dovra maschinas spezialas per stampar tals cudeschs. Malgrà las pussaivladads tecnicas modernas d'audio èsi tuttina impurtant da pudair leger, di Thomas Moser ch'è correctur tar la SBS e sez tschorv. «Pudair leger cun Braille è extrem impurtant. Quai distgargia er l'udida.» Ed el di vinavant:  «Sch'jau n'avess betg la scrittira da Braille fiss jau analfabet, lura na pudess jau betg scriver.»

In this episode, Scott Davert gives us an in-depth demonstration of Braille Access. New in iOS 26, Braille Access aims to offer an experience similar to dedicated braille note takers.TranscriptDisclaimer: This transcript was generated by AI Note Taker – VoicePen, an AI-powered transcription app. It is not edited or formatted, and it may not accurately capture the speakers' names, voices, or content.An AppleVis Orriginal Thanks for checking out the AppleViz podcast. I'm Scott Davert, and on this podcast, I'm going to cover Braille Access, a brand new set of features available in iOS 26.My apologies, by the way, for getting this out kind of late. I know it's been pretty much a month at this point, but I had a lot of things going on, including being sick twice last month. And the bulk of everything I'm going to talk about here today is available in the article I published on September 13th.So if you're someone who prefers blog posts to podcasts, that is also available to you. What is Braille Access? Braille Access provides access to Braille. That's the podcast. Hope you enjoyed. This podcast was brought to you by the community at AppleBiz.com. No, I'm kidding. Braille Access isA set of tools, I would call them. I don't know if we're supposed to refer to Braille access as a feature and these other things as sub-features or as an app. I don't know. Whatever it is, it has a lot to offer. We have a few functions in it that... We're already available on previous versions of iOS that have been put into this suite of applications or tools, we'll call them. And you have some newcomers. Like anything that is brand new, it does suffer with some challenges, but we'll talk about that as we go along.The idea behind this is to essentially address the needs of Braille users. For a long time, we've, of course, been able to connect Bluetooth displays to iOS devices, but we haven't had any real major features built in specifically for Braille display users, and that changes with iOS 26.If you're familiar with the old note takers like the Braille Lite, the Braille and Speak, the BrailleNote, the BrailleNote Empower, the BrailleNote Apex,The Braille Sense 6 has some of this as well. It's probably the most modern example of this type of environment. But this one brings a lot of these features to your iOS and iPadOS devices. So, for example, you have the ability to take notes. That one's called Braille Notes.I don't know how humanware feels about that, but that's what it's called. And then you have BRF files. So if you have files that you have created on notetakers or things that you have downloaded from Bookshare, NLS barred,CELA, I know, has BRF content, RNIB does, and so on and so forth. You'll be able to read. You can also create and edit BRF documents through Braille access. There's also a calculator application that allows you to use Nemeth code, which is still, I think, what a lot of schools are using here in the States, as well as UEB math.which is starting to spread across the U.S., but who knows how that one will come out. We also have live captions. I can't really demonstrate those. It's kind of difficult to do in a podcast, but I'll definitely talk about that and how they are used and some of the limitations. And we also have the ability to tell the time in…

Discover how blind tech enthusiasts can upgrade from Windows 10, harness Apple's new Braille Access features, and get involved with the powerful Bits community for learning and support. This episode is supported by Pneuma Solutions. Creators of accessible tools like Remote Incident Manager and Scribe. Get $20 off with code dt20 at https://pneumasolutions.com/ and enter to win a free subscription at doubletaponair.com/subscribe!Steven Scott hosts a lively discussion with Michael Babcock and Jeff Bishop about technology for blind users, starting with questions about device compatibility and upgrading from Windows 10 as end-of-life approaches. The episode explores tools like Rufus for accessible updates, the role of screen readers like JAWS, NVDA, and Narrator, and the importance of choosing the right solution for different computing needs. The conversation shifts into Apple's new Braille Access, highlighting features like BRF note creation, multitasking with braille displays, and sharing files via iCloud. Steven shares his personal training experience, while the team reflects on the impact of this feature for education, productivity, and collaboration. Listeners also get an in-depth look at BITS (Blind Information Technology Specialists), a global community empowering blind users to learn everything from Microsoft Office and Google tools to Python coding and AI. The team explains Project Empower, mentorship, and on-demand educational resources that help blind users upskill and even provide paid accessibility feedback to tech companies.Relevant LinksBITS (Blind Information Technology Specialists): https://joinbits.orgYour Tech Report: https://yourtechreport.com Find Double Tap online: YouTube, Double Tap Website---Follow on:YouTube: https://www.doubletaponair.com/youtubeX (formerly Twitter): https://www.doubletaponair.com/xInstagram: https://www.doubletaponair.com/instagramTikTok: https://www.doubletaponair.com/tiktokThreads: https://www.doubletaponair.com/threadsFacebook: https://www.doubletaponair.com/facebookLinkedIn: https://www.doubletaponair.com/linkedin Subscribe to the Podcast:Apple: https://www.doubletaponair.com/appleSpotify: https://www.doubletaponair.com/spotifyRSS: https://www.doubletaponair.com/podcastiHeadRadio: https://www.doubletaponair.com/iheart About Double TapHosted by the insightful duo, Steven Scott and Shaun Preece, Double Tap is a treasure trove of information for anyone who's blind or partially sighted and has a passion for tech. Steven and Shaun not only demystify tech, but they also regularly feature interviews and welcome guests from the community, fostering an interactive and engaging environment. Tune in every day of the week, and you'll discover how technology can seamlessly integrate into your life, enhancing daily tasks and experiences, even if your sight is limited. "Double Tap" is a registered trademark of Double Tap Productions Inc. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

20251009 I Love Braille Originally Broadcasted October 9, 2025, on ACB Media 5   Under title "I have a question", this session featured an interactive discussion, in which participants asked and answered braille-related questions.   Sponsored by: East Bay Center for the Blind Access Archives Email Vileen Shah     Find out more at https://acb-community.pinecast.co

Discover Dolphin SuperNova, the powerful screen reader and magnification suite for Windows, and learn how it supports blind and partially sighted users worldwide. Simon Kitchen from Dolphin Computer Access reveals their history, unique accessibility features, and a limited-time 50% discount for JAWS, ZoomText, and Fusion users.Steven Scott and Shaun Preece are joined by Simon Kitchen, Chief Commercial Officer at Dolphin Computer Access, to dive into the world of accessible computing. Dolphin has been empowering blind and low-vision users since 1986 with products like SuperNova and GuideConnect, offering screen reading, magnification, and reading solutions for Windows. Simon shares insights into SuperNova's multi-level accessibility tools, including touchscreen magnification, Braille display support, integrated EasyReader, and AI-powered help for learning shortcuts. He also explains how Dolphin's products compare with other popular screen readers, why choice matters for users, and how international support is handled. The episode highlights a global 50% discount promotion on SuperNova licenses with a 12-month maintenance agreement—aimed at users considering a cost-effective alternative to premium assistive software. The team also discusses GuideConnect, Dolphin's simplified computing environment for those wanting essential digital independence without the complexity of traditional operating systems. Try Dolphin SuperNova free for 30 days and explore their learning resources:

En 'Buenos días, Javi y Mar', suena "Olvidé Olvidarte" de MarLo y Álvaro de Luna, y "Nice to Meet You" de Miles Smith. Se destaca a Ana García Pérez, la mejor docente de primaria en España. Se juega a Jeroglíficos Auditivos con películas españolas. Se discute sobre geobiología y Feng Shui, y su impacto en el sueño. Suena "Flaca" de Andrés Calamaro y "Tu Cuerpo en Braille" de Nil Moliner. Se comentan experiencias de compras online fallidas, como un toldo o una bicicleta de juguete. Se habla de la posible boda de Taylor Swift y la expectativa de que Ed Sheeran cante. Elly Goulding, Madonna, y Benson Boone también musicalizan el programa. Se presentan ofertas de Peugeot Professional, El Corte Inglés cruceros, Activia Kefir y Lidl. Se discuten los beneficios de Bruxicalm y los huevos Rujamar. Se menciona la canción "Nervioso" de Ranchu. El programa 'Mateo & Andrea' continúa la mañana en CADENA 100. Finalmente, se tratan ofertas de BBVA, Mediamarkt, los rascas de la Once, la eficiencia ...

20251002 I Love Braille Originally Broadcasted October 2, 2025, on ACB Media 5   Barbara Lassen presented on federal and state funding for Braille projects.   Sponsored by: East Bay Center for the Blind Access Archives Email Vileen Shah     Find out more at https://acb-community.pinecast.co

ACB Braille Forum October 2025.

Klyph Notes Ep. 185: Braille – Handcrafted Raps & Gospel Banquet On this episode of Klyph Notes, I'm joined by an artist whose work has deeply impacted me—not only as a fan, but as someone who's watched his journey unfold across decades. Braille is back with Handcrafted Raps, his first solo project in over 14 years, and we dive into what inspired his return to the mic. We talk about my personal connection to his music—through his solo career, his work with Lightheaded, and other collaborations that helped shape the sound of Northwest underground hip-hop. Braille shares why this new release was the right moment to re-enter the booth, and what Handcrafted Raps represents in this chapter of his life. But we also explore his evolution beyond the music industry. Braille opens up about his transition from artist to ministry, and how that path led to the founding of Gospel Banquet, a label and platform focused on spiritually grounded creative work. This one is layered with gratitude, reflection, and inspiration. Whether you've followed Braille since Lifefirst or are just tuning in, this conversation shines light on what it means to grow in purpose and still stay rooted in the rhythm. Powered by KlyphWorks The theme for Klyph Notes was produced by Theory Hazit Support the movement and become a DJ Klyph patron  

Each episode on Unstoppable Mindset I ask all of you and my guests to feel free to introduce me to others who would be good guests on our podcast. Our guest this time, Erin Edgar, is a guest introduced to me by a past podcast guest, Rob Wentz. Rob told me that Erin is inspirational and would be interesting and that she would have a lot to offer you, our audience. Rob was right on all counts. Erin Edgar was born blind. Her parents adopted an attitude that would raise their daughter with a positive attitude about herself. She was encouraged and when barriers were put in her way as a youth, her parents helped her fight to be able to participate and thrive. For a time, she attended the Indiana School for the Blind. Her family moved to Georgia where Erin attended high school. After high school, Erin wanted to go to college where she felt there would be a supportive program that would welcome her on campus. She attended the University of North Carolina at Chapple Hill. After graduating she decided to continue at UNC where she wanted to study law. The same program that gave her so much assistance during her undergraduate days was not able to provide the same services to Erin the graduate student. Even so, Erin had learned how to live, survive and obtain what she needed to go through the law program. After she received her law degree Erin began to do what she always wanted to do: She wanted to use the law to help people. So, she worked in programs such as Legal Aid in North Carolina and she also spent time as a mediator. She will describe all that for us. Like a number of people, when the pandemic began, she decided to pivot and start her own law firm. She focuses on estate planning. We have a good discussion about topics such as the differences between a will and a living trust. Erin offers many relevant and poignant thoughts and words of advice we all can find helpful. Erin is unstoppable by any standard as you will see. About the Guest: Erin Edgar, Esq., is a caring, heart-centered attorney, inspirational speaker and vocal artist. She loves helping clients: -- Plan for the future of their lives and businesses, ensuring that they have the support they need and helping them find ways to provide for their loved ones upon death. --Ensure that the leave a legacy of love and reflect client values -- Find creative ways that allow them to impact the world with a lasting legacy. She is passionate about connecting with clients on a heart level. She loves witnessing her clients as she guides them to transform their intentions for their loved ones into a lasting legacy through the estate planning process. Erin speaks about ways to meld proven legal tools, strategies, and customization with the creative process to design legal solutions that give people peace of mind, clarity, and the assurance that their loved ones will be taken care of, and the world will be left a better place Ways to connect with Erin: Facebook: https://facebook.com/erin-edgar-legal LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/erinedgar About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. We're glad that you're here with us, wherever you may be. Hope the day is going well, and we have Erin Edgar on our episode today. Edgar is a very interesting person in a lot of ways. She's a caring, heart centered attorney. She is also an inspirational speaker and a vocal artist. I'm not sure whether vocal artistry comes into play when she's in the courtroom, but we won't worry about that too much. I assume that you don't sing to your judges when you're trying to deal with something. But anyway, I'll let her answer that. I'm just trying to cause trouble, but Erin again. We're really glad you're with us. We really appreciate you being here, and I know you do a lot with estate planning and other kinds of things that'll be fun to talk about. So welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Erin Edgar ** 02:14 Thank you, Michael. It's great to be here, and I haven't sung in a courtroom or a courthouse yet, but I wouldn't rule it out.   Michael Hingson ** 02:23 I have someone who I know who also has a guide dog and his diet. His guide dog, it's been a while since I've seen him, but his guide dog tended to be very vocal, especially at unexpected times, and he said that occasionally happened in the courtroom, which really busted up the place. Oh, dear.   Erin Edgar ** 02:45 I imagine that would draw some smiles, hopefully, smiles.   Michael Hingson ** 02:48 Well, they were, yeah, do you, do you appear in court much?   Erin Edgar ** 02:53 Um, no, the type of law that I practice, I'm usually, I don't think I've ever appeared in court after I've written people's wills, but I have done previous things where I was in court mediating disputes, which is a kind of a separate thing that I used to do, so I've been in court just not recently. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 03:17 Well, that's understandable. Well, let's start a little bit with the early Erin and growing up and all that sort of stuff. Tell us about that? Sure.   Erin Edgar ** 03:26 So I was born in cold, gray Indiana, and, yeah, chilly in the wintertime, and I started out I was blind from birth, so my parents thought it would be a good idea to send me to the school for the blind for a while. And back when I was born, um, teen years ago, they did not mainstream visually impaired and disabled students in that state, so you went where you could, and I was at the blind school for until I reached third grade, and then we moved to Georgia, and I've been in the south ever since I live in North Carolina now, and I started going to public schools in fourth grade, and continued on that route all the way up through high school.   Michael Hingson ** 04:21 Oh, okay. And so then, what did you do?   Erin Edgar ** 04:29 So after, after that, I, you know, I was one of those high school students. I really wanted to get out of dodge and leave my high school behind. I went visiting a couple of colleges in Georgia, and I said to my parents, I said, I really don't like this. It's like going to high school again. Literally, I was meeting people I had been in high school with, and I decided, and was very grateful that my parents. Were able to rig it some way so that I could go to an out of state school. And I went to UNC Chapel Hill here in North Carolina, Tar Heels all the way. And I was there for undergrad. And then I got into law school there as well, which I was very excited about, because I didn't have to go anywhere, and graduated from law school again a while ago in the early 2000s   Michael Hingson ** 05:31 Okay, and so then you went straight into law from that.   Erin Edgar ** 05:37 I didn't I did some other things before I actually went into law itself. I worked with some local advocacy organizations, and I also mediated, as I said earlier, I did mediations with the county court, helping mediate criminal disputes. And we're talking about like things with you get in a dispute with your neighbor and you yell at each other, those kind of People's Court type things. They were fun and interesting. And then I did go into law. After that, I started working with Legal Aid of North Carolina, which is a an organization that helps people in poverty who cannot afford a lawyer to go and have have their options communicated to them and some help given to them regarding their public benefits or certain other, you know, public things that we could help with we weren't able to help with any personal injury, or, you know, any of the fun stuff you see on TV. So and then, when the pandemic hit, I started my own law practice and completely changed gears and went into writing estate plans and wills for a living.   Michael Hingson ** 07:07 Do you think that your time doing mediation work and so on taught you a lot about humanity and human nature and people?   Erin Edgar ** 07:16 It did. I bet it did. It was invaluable, actually, in that area taught me a lot about, I don't know necessarily, about human nature. However, it did teach me a lot about how to talk to people who were on different pages. You know, they had, perhaps, values and principles that weren't quite the same, where they had a different way of looking at the same exact situation, and how to bring those those people together and allow them to connect on a deeper level, rather than the argument we're able to get them to agree to kind of move forward from that, so nobody has to be found guilty, right? And you know a judge doesn't have and you don't have to drag a criminal conviction around with you. I think the most rewarding cases that I had, by far were the education cases. Because I don't know if anyone knows this, but in most states, in the United States, if you don't send your kids to school, you are guilty of a crime. It's called truancy, and you can be arrested. Well, the county that I live in was very forward thinking, and the school system and the court said, that's kind of dumb. We don't want to arrest parents if their kids aren't going to school, there's something behind it. You know, there the school is not providing what the child needs. The child's acting out for some reason, and we need to get to the bottom of it. So what they did was they set up a process whereby we come in as neutral observers. We did not work for the court. We were part of a separate organization, and have a school social worker there or counselor, and also have a parent there, and they could talk through the issues. And in a lot of cases, if the children were old enough, they were teenagers, they were there, and they could talk about it from their perspective. And truly amazing things came out of those situations. We could just we would discover that the children had a behavioral issue or even a disability that had not been recognized, and were able to come up with plans to address that with you know, or the school was with our help,   Michael Hingson ** 09:42 going back a little bit, how did your parents deal with the fact that you were blind? I gather it was a fairly positive experience   Erin Edgar ** 09:50 for me. It was positive. I was so fortunate, and I'm still so grateful to this day for having parents who you. I were very forward thinking, and advocated for me to have and do whatever, not whatever I wanted, because I was far from spoiled, but, you know, whatever, yeah, yeah, you know. But whatever, however I wanted to be successful, they advocated for me. And so my mother actually told me, you know, when I was born, they went through all the parent things like, oh, gosh, what did we do wrong? You know, why is God punishing us? You know, all that. And they, very early on, found support groups for, you know, parents with children with either blindness or disabilities of some sort, and that was a great source of help to them. And as I grew up, they made every effort to ensure that I had people who could teach me, if they couldn't, you know, how to interact with other children. I think, for a while when I was very little, and I actually kind of remember this, they hired an occupational therapist to come and teach me how to play with kids, because not only was I blind, but I was an only child, so I didn't have brothers and sisters to interact with, and that whole play thing was kind of a mystery to me, and I remember it sort of vaguely, but that's just A demonstration that they wanted me to have the best life possible and to be fully integrated into the sighted world as much as possible. So when I was at the blind school, and I was in this residential environment, and there was an added bonus that my parents didn't really weren't happy in their jobs either, and they weren't happy with the education I was getting, that they decided, well, we're just going to pick up and move and that was, quite frankly, as I look back on it now, a huge risk for them. And they did it, you know, 50% for me and 50% for them, maybe even 6040, but as I look back on it now, it's another demonstration of how supportive they were, and all the way through my school age years, were very active in ensuring that I had everything that I needed and that I had the support that I needed.   Michael Hingson ** 12:19 That's cool. How did it go when you went to college at UNC?   Erin Edgar ** 12:25 Yeah, that's an interesting question, a very good question.   Michael Hingson ** 12:29 You didn't play basketball, I assume? Oh no, I figured you had other things to do.   Erin Edgar ** 12:33 Yeah, I had other stuff to do. I sang in the choir and sang with the medieval chorus group, and, you know, all this other, like, musical geek, geeky stuff. But, or, and when we were looking for colleges and universities, one of the criteria was they had to have a solid kind of, like disability, slash visually impaired center, or, you know, support staff that would help in, you know, allow people with disabilities to go through the university. So at UNC Chapel Hill, the they had as part of their student affairs department Disability Services, and it just so happened that they were very aware of accommodations that blind people needed. I wasn't the first blind student to go through undergrad there. That's not law school, that's undergrad. And so you know, how much was it? Time and a half on on tests if I was doing them on the computer, double time if I was doing them in Braille. A lot of the tests were in Braille because they had the technology to do it. And also the gentleman who ran the Disability Services Department, I think, knew Braille, if I'm not mistaken, and could transcribe if necessary. But I was at the stage at that point where I was typing most of my exams anyway, and didn't need much that was in Braille, because I had books either electronically or they had a network of folks in the community that would volunteer to read if there was not, you know, available textbooks from RFD, and what is it, RFP and D? Now was at the time, yeah, now Learning Ally, there wasn't a Bookshare at that time, so we couldn't use Bookshare, but if there weren't textbooks available, they would have people in the community who would read them for them, and they would get paid a little bit. Now, when I went to law school, it was a totally different ball game, because I was the first law student who was blind, that UNC Chapel Hill had had, and it was a different school within the school, so that student affairs department was not part of law school anymore, and we had quite a time the first semester getting my book. Works in a format that I could read them in. They did eventually, kind of broker a deal, if you will, with the publishers who were either Thompson Reuters or Westlaw at the time to get electronic versions. They were floppy disks. This is how old I am. Floppy disks. They were in this weird format. I think it was word perfect or something. Usually it was, and they   Michael Hingson ** 15:27 didn't really have a lot of them new or no, they didn't know now, newer publishing system,   Erin Edgar ** 15:32 yeah, there wasn't PDF even, I don't think, at the time. And the agreement was I could get those, and I actually had to buy the print textbooks as well. So I have this whole bookcase of law books that are virgin, unopened, almost. And they are, you know, some of them almost 25 years old, never been opened and of no use to anyone. But I have them, and they look nice sitting down there in that bookshelf antiques books. They're antiques. So the first year was a little rough, because for a while I didn't have books, and we were able to make arrangements so that I could kind of make up some classes on a later year and switch things around a little bit. And it ended up all working out really well once we got started.   Michael Hingson ** 16:16 Yeah, I remember when I was going through getting my bachelor's and master's in physics, I needed the books in braille because, well, it's the only way to be able to really deal with the subject. You can't do it nearly as well from recordings, although now there's a little bit better capability through recording, because we have the DayZ format and so on. But still, it's not the same as reading it in Braille and for mathematics and physics and so on. I think that the only way to really do it is in Braille. And we had challenges because professors didn't want to decide what books to use until the last minute, because then, oh, a new book might be coming out and we want to get the latest book, and that didn't work for me, right? Because I had a network that I, in part, I developed with the Department of Rehabilitation out here, helped our office for disabled students didn't really have the resources to know it. They were very supportive. They just didn't really deal with it. But the bottom line is that we had to develop, I had to develop the network of transcribers, but they needed three to six months to do the books, at least three months and and sometimes I would get them one or two volumes at a time, and they barely kept ahead of the class. But, you know, it worked, but professors resisted it. And my the person who ran the Office for Students with Disabilities, said, Look, you have to work on these things, but if you're not getting cooperation from professors, and you come and tell me, and I will use the power of this office to get you what you need, there's another thing you might consider doing, she said. And I said, What's that? And Jan said, Go meet the chancellor. Make friends, yeah, friends in high places. And so I did. And Dan, oh, there you go. Became pretty good friends over the years, which was pretty cool,   Erin Edgar ** 18:15 you know, it was weird because we didn't, I didn't have that problem with the professors. They were, you know, I had a couple of old codgers, but they weren't really worried about the books. They were fine with me having the books, but it was the publishers. The publishers were irritated that that I needed them, and, you know, in an alternative format. And I didn't really, I was not. I was one of those people that if someone said they were going to do something for me, I kind of let people do it. And at the time, I was really not an advocate, advocator for myself, at that time, a very good self advocate. And so I kind of let the school interface with that. I think it would have been really interesting, if I look back on it, for me to have taken a hand in that. And I wonder what would have happened well, and at this point, you know, it's neither here nor there, but that's really fascinating. Making Friends with the chancellor, sometimes you have to do stuff like that   Michael Hingson ** 19:15 well. And the idea was really to get to know Him. And what there was, well, obviously other motivations, like, if we needed to go to a higher court to get help, we could go to the chancellor. I never had to do that, but, but the reason for meeting him and getting to know him was really just to do it and to have fun doing it. So we did,   Erin Edgar ** 19:36 yeah, and I kind of had a comparable experience. I met the Dean of the Law School for that very reason. And he said, you know, if you've got trouble, come to me, my parents got involved a little bit. And we all, you know, met together and maybe even separately at some points just to make sure that I had everything that I needed at various times. Mm. Yeah, and I made friends with the some of the assistant deans at the law school, in particular because of the situation, and one of whom was the Dean of the Law School Student Affairs, who was helping me to get what I needed. And for a while, when I was in law school and beyond. He was like, We lent books to each other. It was very funny. We found out we had the same reading tastes beyond law books. It wasn't, you know, legal at all, but we were like, trading books and things. So a lot of really good relationships came out of that.   Michael Hingson ** 20:37 And I think that's extremely important to to do. And I think that's one of the things that that offices for students with disabilities that tend to want to do everything for you. I think that's one of the things that it's a problem with those offices, because if you don't learn to do them, and if you don't learn to do them in college, how are you going to be able to be able to really act independently and as an advocate after college, so you have to learn that stuff   Erin Edgar ** 21:05 Absolutely. That's a very good point.   Michael Hingson ** 21:09 So I, I think it was extremely important to do it, and we did, and had a lot of fun doing it. So it was, was good. What are some of the biggest misconceptions you think that people had about you as a blind child growing up?   Erin Edgar ** 21:25 Oh yeah, that's a great question. I think that one of the biggest misconceptions that people had about me, especially when I was younger, is that I would know I would be sort of relegated to staying at home with parents all of my life, or being a stay at home parent and not able to be kind of professionally employed and earning, you know, earning a living wage. Now, I have my own business, and that's where most of my money goes at the same at this point. So, you know, earning a living wage might be up in the air at the moment. Ha, ha. But the the one thing I think that the biggest misconception that people had, and this is even like teachers at the blind school, it was very rare for blind children of my age to grow up and be, you know, professionals in, I don't want to say high places, but like people able to support themselves without a government benefit backing them up. And it was kind of always assumed that we would be in that category, that we would be less able than our sighted peers to do that. And so that was a huge misconception, even you know, in the school that I was attending. I think that was the, really the main one and one misconception that I had then and still have today, is that if I'm blind, I can't speak for myself. This still happens today. For instance, if I'm if I want, if I'm going somewhere and I just happen to be with someone sighted, they will talk whoever I'm, wherever I'm at, they will talk to the sighted person, right? They won't talk to you. They won't talk to me. And so, for instance, simple example, if I'm somewhere with my husband, and we happen to be walking together and we go somewhere that I need to go, they will talk to him because he's guiding me, and they won't talk. And he's like, don't talk to me. I have no idea, you know, talk to her, and part of that is I'm half a step behind him. People naturally gravitate to the people that are leading. However, I noticed, even when I was a young adult, and I would go, you know, to the doctor, and I would be with my my parents, like, maybe I'm visiting them, and I need to go to the doctor, they would talk to them and not me, yeah, which is kind of sad. And I think it happens a lot, a lot more than people realize.   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 Yeah, it does. And one of my favorite stories is, is this, I got married in 1982 and my wife has always been, or had always been. She passed away in 2022 but she was always in a wheelchair. And we went to a restaurant one Saturday for breakfast. We were standing at the counter waiting to be seated, and the hostess was behind the counter, and nothing was happening. And finally, Karen said to me, she doesn't know who to talk to, you know? Because Karen, of course, is, is in a wheelchair, so actually, she's clearly shorter than this, this person behind the counter, and then there's me and and, of course, I'm not making eye contact, and so Karen just said she doesn't know who to talk to. I said, you know? All she's gotta do is ask us where we would like to sit or if we'd like to have breakfast, and we can make it work. Well, she she got the message, and she did, and the rest of the the day went fine, but that was really kind of funny, that we had two of us, and she just didn't know how to deal with either of us, which was kind of cute. Mm, hmm. Well, you know, it brings up another question. You use the term earlier, visually impaired. There's been a lot of effort over the years. A lot of the professionals, if you will, created this whole terminology of visually impaired, and they say, well, you're blind or you're visually impaired. And visually impaired means you're not totally blind, but, but you're still visually impaired. And finally, blind people, I think, are starting to realize what people who are deaf learned a long time ago, and that is that if you take take a deaf person and you refer to them as hearing impaired, there's no telling what they might do to you, because they recognize that impaired is not true and they shouldn't be equated with people who have all of their hearing. So it's deaf or hard of hearing, which is a whole lot less of an antagonistic sort of concept than hearing impaired. We're starting to get blind people, and not everyone's there yet, and we're starting to get agencies, and not every agency is there yet, to recognize that it's blind or low vision, as opposed to blind or here or visually impaired, visually impaired. What do you think about that? How does and how does that contribute to the attitudes that people had toward you?   Erin Edgar ** 26:38 Yeah, so when I was growing up, I was handicapped, yeah, there was that too, yeah, yeah, that I was never fond of that, and my mother softened it for me, saying, well, we all have our handicaps or shortcomings, you know, and but it was really, what was meant was you had Something that really held you back. I actually, I say, this is so odd. I always, I usually say I'm totally blind. Because when I say blind, the immediate question people have is, how blind are you? Yeah, which gets back to stuff, yeah, yeah. If you're blind, my opinion, if you're blind, you're you're blind, and if you have low vision, you have partial sight. And visually impaired used to be the term, you know, when I was younger, that people use, and that's still a lot. It's still used a lot, and I will use it occasionally, generally. I think that partially sighted, I have partial vision is, is what I've heard people use. That's what, how my husband refers to himself. Low Vision is also, you know, all those terms are much less pejorative than actually being impaired,   Michael Hingson ** 27:56 right? That's kind of really the issue, yeah. My, my favorite example of all of this is a past president of the National Federation of the Blind, Ken Jernigan, you've heard of him, I assume, Oh, sure. He created a document once called a definition of blindness, and his definition, he goes through and discusses various conditions, and he asks people if, if you meet these conditions, are you blind or not? But then what he eventually does is he comes up with a definition, and his definition, which I really like, is you are blind if your eyesight has decreased to the point where you have to use alternatives to full eyesight in order to function, which takes into account totally blind and partially blind people. Because the reality is that most of those people who are low vision will probably, or they may probably, lose the rest of their eyesight. And the agencies have worked so hard to tell them, just use your eyesight as best you can. And you know you may need to use a cane, but use your eyesight as best you can, and if you go blind, then we're going to have to teach you all over again, rather than starting by saying blindness is really okay. And the reality is that if you learn the techniques now, then you can use the best of all worlds.   Erin Edgar ** 29:26 I would agree with that. I would also say you should, you know, people should use what they have. Yeah, using everything you have is okay. And I think there's a lot of a lot of good to be said for learning the alternatives while you're still able to rely on something else.   Michael Hingson ** 29:49 Point taken exactly you know, because   Erin Edgar ** 29:53 as you age, you get more and more in the habit of doing things one way, and it's. Very hard to break out of that. And if you haven't learned an alternative, there's nothing you feel like. There's nothing to fall back on, right? And it's even harder because now you're in the situation of urgency where you feel like you're missing something and you're having to learn something new, whereas if you already knew it and knew different ways to rely on things you would be just like picking a memory back up, rather than having to learn something new. Well, I've never been in that position, so I can't say, but in the abstract, I think that's a good definition.   Michael Hingson ** 30:34 Well, there are a lot of examples, like, take a person who has some eyesight, and they're not encouraged to use a cane. And I know someone who was in this situation. I think I've told the story on this podcast, but he lived in New Jersey and was travel. And traveled every day from New Jersey into Philadelphia to work, and he was on a reasonably cloudy day, was walking along. He had been given a cane by the New Jersey Commission for the Blind, but he they didn't really stress the value of using it. And so he was walking along the train to go in, and he came to the place where he could turn in and go into the car. And he did, and promptly fell between two cars because he wasn't at the right place. And then the train actually started to move, but they got it stopped, and so he was okay, but as as he tells the story, he certainly used his cane from then on. Because if he had been using the cane, even though he couldn't see it well because it was dark, or not dark, cloudy, he would have been able to see that he was not at the place where the car entrance was, but rather he was at the junction between two cars. And there's so many examples of that. There's so many reasons why it's important to learn the skills. Should a partially blind or a low vision person learn to read Braille? Well, depends on circumstances, of course, I think, to a degree, but the value of learning Braille is that you have an alternative to full print, especially if there's a likelihood that you're going to lose the rest of your eyesight. If you psychologically do it now, that's also going to psychologically help you prepare better for not having any eyesight later.   Erin Edgar ** 32:20 And of course, that leads to to blind children these days learn how to read, yeah, which is another issue.   Michael Hingson ** 32:28 Which is another issue because educators are not teaching Braille nearly as much as they should, and the literacy rate is so low. And the fact of the matter is even with George Kircher, who invented the whole DAISY format and and all the things that you can do with the published books and so on. The reality is there is still something to be said for learning braille. You don't have sighted children just watching television all the time, although sometimes my parents think they do, but, but the point is that they learn to read, and there's a value of really learning to read. I've been in an audience where a blind speaker was delivering a speech, and he didn't know or use Braille. He had a device that was, I think what he actually used was a, was, it was a Victor Reader Stream, which is   Erin Edgar ** 33:24 one of those, right?   Michael Hingson ** 33:25 I think it was that it may have been something else, but the bottom line is, he had his speech written out, and he would play it through earphones, and then he would verbalize his speech. Oh, no, that's just mess me up. Oh, it would. It was very disjointed and and I think that for me, personally, I read Braille pretty well, but I don't like to read speeches at all. I want to engage the audience, and so it's really important to truly speak with the audience and not read or do any of those other kinds of things.   Erin Edgar ** 33:57 I would agree. Now I do have a Braille display that I, I use, and, you know, I do use it for speeches. However, I don't put the whole speech on   Michael Hingson ** 34:10 there that I me too. I have one, and I use it for, I know, I have notes. Mm, hmm,   Erin Edgar ** 34:16 notes, yeah. And so I feel like Braille, especially for math. You know, when you said math and physics, like, Yeah, I can't imagine doing math without Braille. That just doesn't, you know, I can't imagine it, and especially in, you know, geometry and trigonometry with those diagrams. I don't know how you would do it without a Braille textbook, but yeah, there. There's certainly something to be said for for the the wonderful navigation abilities with, you know, e published audio DAISY books. However, it's not a substitute for knowing how to   Michael Hingson ** 34:55 read. Well, how are you going to learn to spell? How are you going to really learn sit? Structure, how are you going to learn any of those basic skills that sighted kids get if you don't use Braille? Absolutely, I think that that's one of the arenas where the educational system, to a large degree, does such a great disservice to blind kids because it won't teach them Braille.   Erin Edgar ** 35:16 Agreed, agreed. Well, thank you for this wonderful spin down Braille, Braille reading lane here. That was fun.   Michael Hingson ** 35:27 Well, so getting back to you a little bit, you must have thought or realized that probably when you went into law, you were going to face some challenges. But what was the defining moment that made you decide you're going to go into law, and what kind of challenges have you faced? If you face challenges, my making an assumption, but you know what?   Erin Edgar ** 35:45 Oh, sure. So the defining moment when I decided I wanted to go into law. It was a very interesting time for me. I was teenager. Don't know exactly how old I was, but I think I was in high school, and I had gone through a long period where I wanted to, like, be a music major and go into piano and voice and be a performer in those arenas, and get a, you know, high level degree whatnot. And then I began having this began becoming very interested in watching the Star Trek television series. Primarily I was out at the time the next generation, and I was always fascinated by the way that these people would find these civilizations on these planets, and they would be at odds in the beginning, and they would be at each other's throats, and then by the end of the day, they were all kind of   Michael Hingson ** 36:43 liking each other. And John Luke Picard didn't play a flute,   Erin Edgar ** 36:47 yes, and he also turned into a Borg, which was traumatic for me. I had to rate local summer to figure out what would happen. I was in I was in trauma. Anyway, my my father and I bonded over that show. It was, it was a wonderful sort of father daughter thing. We did it every weekend. And I was always fascinated by, like, the whole, the whole aspect of different ideologies coming together. And it always seemed to me that that's what human humanity should be about. As I, you know, got older, I thought, how could I be involved in helping people come together? Oh, let's go into law. Because, you know, our government's really good at that. That was the high school student in me. And I thought at the time, I wanted to go into the Foreign Service and work in the international field and help, you know, on a net, on a you know, foreign policy level. I quickly got into law school and realized two things simultaneously in my second year, international law was very boring, and there were plenty of problems in my local community that I could help solve, like, why work on the international stage when people in my local community are suffering in some degree with something and so I completely changed my focus to wanting to work in an area where I could bring people together and work for, you know, work on an individualized level. And as I went into the legal field, that was, it was part of the reason I went into the mediation, because that was one of the things that we did, was helping people come together. I realized, though, as I became a lawyer and actually started working in the field, most of the legal system is not based on that. It's based on who has the best argument. I wanted no part of that. Yeah, I want no part of that at all. I want to bring people together. Still, the Star Trek mentality is working here, and so when I when I started my own law firm, my immediate question to myself was, how can I now that I'm out doing my own thing, actually bring people together? And the answer that I got was help families come together, especially people thinking about their end of life decisions and gathering their support team around them. Who they want to help them? If they are ever in a situation where they become ill and they can't manage their affairs, or if you know upon their death, who do they want to help them and support them. And how can I use the law to allow that to happen? And so that's how I am working, to use the law for healing and bringing people together, rather than rather than winning an argument.   Michael Hingson ** 39:59 Yeah. Yeah, well, and I think there's a lot of merit to that. I I value the law a great deal, and I I am not an attorney or anything like that, but I have worked in the world of legislation, and I've worked in the world of dealing with helping to get legislation passed and and interacting with lawyers. And my wife and I worked with an attorney to set up our our trust, and then couple of years ago, I redid it after she passed away. And so I think that there was a lot of a lot of work that attorneys do that is extremely important. Yeah, there are, there are attorneys that were always dealing with the best arguments, and probably for me, the most vivid example of that, because it was so captivating when it happened, was the whole OJ trial back in the 1990s we were at a county fair, and we had left going home and turned on the radio, only To hear that the police were following OJ, and they finally arrested him. And then when the trial occurred, we while I was working at a company, and had a radio, and people would would come around, and we just had the radio on, and followed the whole trial. And it was interesting to see all the manipulation and all the movement, and you're right. It came down to who had the best argument, right or wrong?   Erin Edgar ** 41:25 The bloody glove. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit. Yeah, yep, I remember that. I remember where I was when they arrested him, too. I was at my grandparents house, and we were watching it on TV. My grandfather was captivated by the whole thing. But yes, there's certainly, you know, some manipulation. There's also, there are also lawyers who do a lot of good and a lot of wonderful things. And in reality, you know, most cases don't go to trial. They're settled in some way. And so, you know, there isn't always, you know, who has the best argument. It's not always about that, right? And at the same time, that is, you know, what the system is based on, to some extent. And really, when our country was founded, our founding fathers were a bunch of, like, acted in a lot of ways, like a bunch of children. If you read books on, you know, the Constitution, it was, it was all about, you know, I want this in here, and I want that in here. And, you know, a lot of argument around that, which, of course, is to be expected. And many of them did not expect our country's government to last beyond their lifetimes. Uh, James Madison was the exception, but all the others were like, Ed's going to fail. And yet, I am very, very proud to be a lawyer in this country, because while it's not perfect, our founding documents actually have a lot of flexibility and how and can be interpreted to fit modern times, which is, I think the beauty of them and exactly what the Founders intended for.   Michael Hingson ** 43:15 Yeah, and I do think that some people are taking advantage of that and causing some challenges, but that's also part of our country and part of our government. I like something Jimmy Carter once said, which was, we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And I think absolutely that's the part that I think sometimes is occasionally being lost, that we forget those principles, or we want to manipulate the principles and make them something that they're not. But he was absolutely right. That is what we need to do, and we can adjust to changing times without sacrificing principles. Absolutely.   Erin Edgar ** 43:55 I firmly believe that, and I would like to kind of turn it back to what we were talking about before, because you actually asked me, What are some challenges that I have faced, and if it's okay with you, I would like to get back to that. Oh, sure. Okay. Well, so I have faced some challenges for you know, to a large extent, though I was very well accommodated. I mean, the one challenge with the books that was challenging when I took the bar exam, oh, horror of horrors. It was a multiple, multiple shot deal, but it finally got done. However, it was not, you know, my failing to pass the first time or times was not the fault of the actual board of law examiners. They were very accommodating. I had to advocate for myself a little bit, and I also had to jump through some hoops. For example, I had to bring my own person to bubble in my responses on the multiple choice part, it. And bring my own person in to kind of monitor me while I did the essay portion. But they allowed me to have a computer, they allowed me to have, you know, the screen reader. They allowed me to have time and a half to do the the exam. And so we're accommodating in that way. And so no real challenges there. You know, some hoops to jump through. But it got all worked out.   Michael Hingson ** 45:23 And even so, some of that came about because blind people actually had to go all the way to the Supreme Court. Yes, the bar to the Bar Association to recognize that those things needed to be that way,   Erin Edgar ** 45:37 absolutely. And so, you know, I was lucky to come into this at a time where that had already been kind of like pre done for me. I didn't have to deal with that as a challenge. And so the only other challenges I had, some of them, were mine, like, you know, who's going to want to hire this blind person? Had a little bit of, you know, kind of challenge there, with that mindset issue for a while there, and I did have some challenges when I was looking for employment after I'd worked for legal aid for a while, and I wanted to move on and do something else. And I knew I didn't want to work for a big, big firm, and I would, I was talking to some small law firms about hiring me, small to mid size firms. And I would get the question of, well, you're blind, so what kind of accommodations do you need? And we would talk about, you know, computer, special software to make a talk, you know, those kinds of things. And it always ended up that, you know, someone else was hired. And I can, you know, I don't have proof that the blindness and the hesitancy around hiring a disabled person or a blind person was in back of that decision. And at the same time, I had the sense that there was some hesitation there as well, so that, you know, was a bit of a challenge, and starting my own law firm was its own challenge, because I had to experiment with several different software systems to Find one that was accessible enough for me to use. And the system I'm thinking about in particular, I wouldn't use any other system, and yet, I'm using practically the most expensive estate planning drafting system out there, because it happens to be the most accessible. It's also the most expensive. Always that. There's always that. And what's it called? I'm curious. It's called wealth Council, okay, wealth. And then the word councils, Council, SEL, and it's wonderful. And the folks there are very responsive. If I say something's not accessible, I mean, they have fixed things for me in the past. Isn't that great? And complain, isn't that wonderful? It is wonderful. And that's, that's awesome. I had a CRM experience with a couple of different like legal CRM software. I used one for a while, and it was okay. But then, you know, everyone else said this other one was better and it was actually less accessible. So I went back to the previous one, you know. So I have to do a lot of my own testing, which is kind of a challenge in and of itself. I don't have people testing software for me. I have to experiment and test and in some cases, pay for something for a while before I realize it's not, you know, not worth it. But now I have those challenges pretty much ironed out. And I have a paralegal who helps me do some things that, like she proof reads my documents, for instance, because otherwise there may be formatting things that I'm not, that I miss. And so I have the ability to have cited assistance with things that I can't necessarily do myself, which is, you know, absolutely fine,   Michael Hingson ** 49:04 yeah. Now, do you use Lexus? Is it accessible?   Erin Edgar ** 49:08 I don't need Lexus, yeah, yeah. I mean, I have, I'm a member of the Bar Association, of my, my state bar association, which is not, not voluntary. It's mandatory. But I'm a member primarily because they have a search, a legal search engine that they work with that we get for free. I mean, with our members, there you go. So there you go. So I don't need Lexus or West Law or any of those other search engines for what I do. And if I was, like, really into litigation and going to court all time and really doing deep research, I would need that. But I don't. I can use the one that they have, that we can use so and it's, it's a entirely web based system. It's fairly accessible   Michael Hingson ** 49:58 well, and. That makes it easier to as long as you've got people's ears absolutely make it accessible, which makes a lot of sense.   Erin Edgar ** 50:08 Yeah, it certainly does well.   Michael Hingson ** 50:10 So do you regard yourself as a resilient person? Has blindness impacted that or helped make that kind of more the case for you? Do you think I do resilience is such an overused term, but it's fair. I know   Erin Edgar ** 50:24 I mean resilience is is to my mind, a resilient person is able to face uh, challenges with a relatively positive outlook in and view a challenge as something to be to be worked through rather than overcome, and so yes, I do believe that blindness, in and of itself, has allowed me to find ways to adapt to situations and pivot in cases where, you know, I need to find an alternative to using a mouse. For instance, how would I do that? And so in other areas of life, I am, you know, because I'm blind, I'm able to more easily pivot into finding alternative solutions. I do believe that that that it has made me more resilient.   Michael Hingson ** 51:25 Do you think that being blind has caused you, and this is an individual thing, because I think that there are those who don't. But do you think that it's caused you to learn to listen better?   Erin Edgar ** 51:39 That's a good question, because I actually, I have a lot of sighted friends, and one of the things that people just assume is that, wow, you must be a really good listener. Well, my husband would tell you that's not always the case. Yeah. My wife said the same thing, yeah. You know, like everyone else, sometimes I hear what I want to hear in a conversation and at the same time, one of the things that I do tell people is that, because I'm blind, I do rely on other senses more, primarily hearing, I would say, and that hearing provides a lot of cues for me about my environment, and I've learned to be more skillful at it. So I, I would say that, yes, I am a good listener in terms of my environment, very sensitive to that in in my environment, in terms of active listening to conversations and being able to listen to what's behind what people say, which is another aspect of listening. I think that that is a skill that I've developed over time with conscious effort. I don't think I'm any better of a quote, unquote listener than anybody else. If I hadn't developed that primarily in in my mediation, when I was doing that, that was a huge thing for us, was to be able to listen, not actually to what people were saying, but what was behind what people were saying, right? And so I really consciously developed that skill during those years and took it with me into my legal practice, which is why I am very, very why I very much stress that I'm not only an attorney, but I'm also a counselor at law. That doesn't mean I'm a therapist, but it does mean I listen to what people say so that and what's behind what people say, so that with the ear towards providing them the legal solution that meets their needs as they describe them in their words.   Michael Hingson ** 53:47 Well, I think for me, I learned to listen, but it but it is an exercise, and it is something that you need to practice, and maybe I learned to do it a little bit better, because I was blind. For example, I learned to ride a bike, and you have to learn to listen to what's going on around you so you don't crash into cars. Oh, but I'd fall on my face. You can do it. But what I what I really did was, when I was I was working at a company, and was told that the job was going to be phased out because I wasn't a revenue producer, and the company was an engineering startup and had to bring in more revenue producers. And I was given the choice of going away or going into sales, which I had never done. And as I love to tell people, I lowered my standards and went from science to sales. But the reality is that that I think I've always and I think we all always sell in one way or another, but I also knew what the unemployment rate among employable blind people was and is, yeah, and so I went into sales with with no qualms. But there I really learned to listen. And and it was really a matter of of learning to commit, not just listen, but really learning to communicate with the people you work with. And I think that that I won't say blindness made me better, but what it did for me was it made me use the technologies like the telephone, perhaps more than some other people. And I did learn to listen better because I worked at it, not because I was blind, although they're related   Erin Edgar ** 55:30 exactly. Yeah, and I would say, I would 100% agree I worked at it. I mean, even when I was a child, I worked at listening to to become better at, kind of like analyzing my environment based on sounds that were in it. Yeah, I wouldn't have known. I mean, it's not a natural gift, as some people assume, yeah, it's something you practice and you have to work at. You get to work at.   Michael Hingson ** 55:55 Well, as I point out, there are people like SEAL Team Six, the Navy Seals and the Army Rangers and so on, who also practice using all of their senses, and they learn, in general, to become better at listening and other and other kinds of skills, because they have to to survive, but, but that's what we all do, is if we do it, right, we're learning it. It's not something that's just naturally there, right? I agree, which I think is important. So you're working in a lot of estate planning and so on. And I mentioned earlier that we it was back in 1995 we originally got one, and then it's now been updated, but we have a trust. What's the difference between having, like a trust and a will?   Erin Edgar ** 56:40 Well, that's interesting that you should ask. So A will is the minimum that pretty much, I would say everyone needs, even though 67% of people don't have one in the US. And it is pretty much what everyone needs. And it basically says, you know, I'm a, I'm a person of sound mind, and I know who is important to me and what I have that's important to me. And I wanted to go to these people who are important to me, and by the way, I want this other person to manage things after my death. They're also important to me and a trust, basically, there are multiple different kinds of trusts, huge numbers of different kinds. And the trust that you probably are referring to takes the will to kind of another level and provides more direction about about how to handle property and how how it's to be dealt with, not only after death, but also during your lifetime. And trusts are relatively most of them, like I said, there are different kinds, but they can be relatively flexible, and you can give more direction about how to handle that property than you can in a will, like, for instance, if you made an estate plan and your kids were young, well, I don't want my children to have access to this property until they're responsible adults. So maybe saying, in a trust until they're age 25 you can do that, whereas in a will, you it's more difficult to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 58:18 And a will, as I understand it, is a lot more easily contested than than a trust.   Erin Edgar ** 58:24 You know, it does depend, but yes, it is easily contested. That's not to say that if you have a trust, you don't need a will, which is a misconception that some, yeah, we have a will in our trust, right? And so, you know, you need the will for the court. Not everyone needs a trust. I would also venture to say that if you don't have a will on your death, the law has ideas about how your property should be distributed. So if you don't have a will, you know your property is not automatically going to go to the government as unclaimed, but if you don't have powers of attorney for your health care and your finance to help you out while you're alive, you run the risk of the A judge appointing someone you would not want to make your health care and financial decisions. And so I'm going to go off on a tangent here. But I do feel very strongly about this, even blind people who and disabled people who are, what did you call it earlier, the the employable blind community, but maybe they're not employed. They don't have a lot of   Michael Hingson ** 59:34 unemployed, unemployed, the unemployable blind people, employable   Erin Edgar ** 59:38 blind people, yes, you know, maybe they're not employed, they're on a government benefit. They don't have a lot of assets. Maybe they don't necessarily need that will. They don't have to have it. And at the same time, if they don't have those, those documents that allow people to manage their affairs during their lifetime. Um, who's going to do it? Yeah, who's going to do that? Yeah, you're giving up control of your body, right, potentially, to someone you would not want, just because you're thinking to yourself, well, I don't need a will, and nothing's going to happen to me. You're giving control of your body, perhaps, to someone you don't want. You're not taking charge of your life and and you are allowing doctors and hospitals and banks to perpetuate the belief that you are not an independent person, right? I'm very passionate about it. Excuse me, I'll get off my soapbox now. That's okay. Those are and and to a large extent, those power of attorney forms are free. You can download them from your state's website. Um, they're minimalistic. They're definitely, I don't use them because I don't like them for my state. But you can get you can use them, and you can have someone help you fill them out. You could sign them, and then look, you've made a decision about who's going to help you when you're not able to help yourself,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:07 which is extremely important to do. And as I mentioned, we went all the way and have a trust, and we funded the trust, and everything is in the trust. But I think that is a better way to keep everything protected, and it does provide so much more direction for whoever becomes involved, when, when you decide to go elsewhere, then, as they put it, this mortal coil. Yes, I assume that the coil is mortal. I don't know.   Erin Edgar ** 1:01:37 Yeah, who knows? Um, and you know trusts are good for they're not just for the Uber wealthy, which is another misconception. Trust do some really good things. They keep your situation, they keep everything more or less private, like, you know, I said you need a will for the court. Well, the court has the will, and it most of the time. If you have a trust, it just says, I want it to go, I want my stuff to go into the Michael hingson Trust. I'm making that up, by the way, and I, you know, my trust just deals with the distribution, yeah, and so stuff doesn't get held up in court. The court doesn't have to know about all the assets that you own. It's not all public record. And that's a huge, you know, some people care. They don't want everyone to know their business. And when I tell people, you know, I can go on E courts today and pull up the estate of anyone that I want in North Carolina and find out what they owned if they didn't have a will, or if they just had a will. And people like, really, you can do that? Oh, absolutely, yeah. I don't need any fancy credentials. It's all a matter of public record. And if you have a trust that does not get put into the court record unless it's litigated, which you know, it does happen, but not often,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:56 but I but again, I think that, you know, yeah, and I'm not one of those Uber wealthy people. But I have a house. We we used to have a wheelchair accessible van for Karen. I still have a car so that when I need to be driven somewhere, rather than using somebody else's vehicle, we use this and those are probably the two biggest assets, although I have a bank account with with some in it, not a lot, not nearly as much as Jack Benny, anyway. But anyway, the bottom line is, yeah, but the bottom line is that I think that the trust keeps everything a lot cleaner. And it makes perfect sense. Yep, it does. And I didn't even have to go to my general law firm that I usually use. Do we cheat them? Good, and how so it worked out really well. Hey, I watched the Marx Brothers. What can I say?   Erin Edgar ** 1:03:45 You watch the Marx Brothers? Of course.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:49 Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and I'm glad that we did it and that we also got to talk about the whole issue of wills and trusts and so on, which is, I think, important. So any last things that you'd like to say to people, and also, do you work with clients across the country or just in North Carolina?   Erin Edgar ** 1:04:06 So I work with clients in North Carolina, I will say that. And one last thing that I would like to say to people is that it's really important to build your support team. Whether you're blind, you know, have another disability, you need people to help you out on a day to day basis, or you decide that you want people to help you out. If you're unable to manage your affairs at some point in your life, it's very important to build that support team around you, and there is nothing wrong. You can be self reliant and still have people on your team yes to to be there for you, and that is very important. And there's absolutely no shame, and you're not relinquishing your independence by doing that. That. So today, I encourage everyone to start thinking about who's on your team. Do you want them on your team? Do you want different people on your team? And create a support team? However that looks like, whatever that looks like for you, that has people on it that you know, love and trust,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 everybody should have a support team. I think there is no question, at least in my mind, about that. So good point. Well, if people want to maybe reach out to you, how do they do that?   Erin Edgar ** 1:05:29 Sure, so I am on the interwebs at Erin Edgar legal.com that's my website where you can learn more about my law firm and all the things that I do,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:42 and Erin is E r i n, just Yes, say that Edgar, and   Erin Edgar ** 1:05:45 Edgar is like Edgar. Allan Poe, hopefully less scary, and you can find the contact information for me on the website. By Facebook, you can find me on Facebook occasionally as Erin Baker, Edgar, three separate words, that is my personal profile, or you can and Michael will have in the show notes the company page for my welcome as   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:11 well. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. This has been a fun episode. It's been great to have Erin on, love to hear your thoughts out there who have been listening to this today. Please let us know what you think. You're welcome to email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, I wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We really appreciate getting good ratings from people and reading and getting to know what you think. If you know anyone who you think might be a good guest, you know some people you think ought to come on unstoppable mindset. Erin, of course, you as well. We would appreciate it if you'd give us an introduction, because we're always looking for more people to have come on and help us show everyone that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are, and that's really what it's all about, and what we want to do on the podcast. So hope that you'll all do that, and in the meanwhile, with all that, Erin, I want to thank you once more for being here and being with us today. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much,   Erin Edgar ** 1:07:27 Michael. I very much enjoyed it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:34 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite

Thanks to Turtleback Low Vision for sponsoring this episode of Double Tap. As a thank you to the Double Tap community, Turtleback is offering 12% off your entire order with promo code DT12. Visit https://www.turtlebacklv.com to shop the full lineup!Steven Scott and Shaun Preece dive into a lively discussion on Braille, tech accessibility, voice control on iPhone, and the ongoing debate over digital media ownership. From journalling and gym confessions to exploring tools like braille.codes and voice control with VoiceOver, this episode blends humour with practical advice for blind and visually impaired tech users.This episode of Double Tap is a mix of entertainment and insight. Steven and Shaun kick things off with candid banter about journalling, gym routines, and the reality of podcasting when “there's nothing to say.” Listener emails take centre stage, covering: Braille vs. Screen Readers: Joel introduces braille.codes, a resource for learning UEB Grade 1 Braille, sparking a nuanced discussion on Braille's role today. Voice Control on iPhone: Harry shares tips on combining Voice Control with VoiceOver, and Shaun explains how he uses it daily—even while cooking. Accessible Devices: From Olympus DM recorders to Zoom recorders and Victor Reader Streams, the hosts debate changing tools for blind users. Digital Media Ownership: A listener raises concerns about buying movies online after Microsoft account horror stories, leading to a wider discussion of DRM and physical vs. digital media. Listener Insights: Messages from around the world explore tactile learning, Swell paper, STEM opportunities with Monarch displays, and using Envision and iPhone accessibility shortcuts.Relevant LinksBraille Codes: https://braille.codesTurtleback Cases: https://turtlebacklv.comEnvision: https://www.letsenvision.com Find Double Tap online: YouTube, Double Tap Website---Follow on:YouTube: https://www.doubletaponair.com/youtubeX (formerly Twitter): https://www.doubletaponair.com/xInstagram: https://www.doubletaponair.com/instagramTikTok: https://www.doubletaponair.com/tiktokThreads: https://www.doubletaponair.com/threadsFacebook: https://www.doubletaponair.com/facebookLinkedIn: https://www.doubletaponair.com/linkedin Subscribe to the Podcast:Apple: https://www.doubletaponair.com/appleSpotify: https://www.doubletaponair.com/spotifyRSS: https://www.doubletaponair.com/podcastiHeadRadio: https://www.doubletaponair.com/iheart About Double TapHosted by the insightful duo, Steven Scott and Shaun Preece, Double Tap is a treasure trove of information for anyone who's blind or partially sighted and has a passion for tech. Steven and Shaun not only demystify tech, but they also regularly feature interviews and welcome guests from the community, fostering an interactive and engaging environment. Tune in every day of the week, and you'll discover how technology can seamlessly integrate into your life, enhancing daily tasks and experiences, even if your sight is limited. "Double Tap" is a registered trademark of Double Tap Productions Inc. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

20250925 I Love Braille Originally Broadcasted September 25, 2025, on ACB Media 5   Rick and Carol brought some word games like anagrams.   Sponsored by: East Bay Center for the Blind Access Archives Email Vileen Shah   Find out more at https://acb-community.pinecast.co

Get on board with Somehow UN-Related! Here, on Apple Podcasts or go to Nearly.com.au Playboy was very visual. Unless you were there for the articles. Thinking Music Curb Your Enthusiasm Link to the answer Wikipedia Support the podcasts you enjoy - check out Lenny.fm More about the show - www.nearly.com.au/somehow-related-podcast-with-glenn-robbins-and-dave-oneil/ Somehow Related is produced by Nearly Media. Original theme music by Kit Warhurst. Artwork created by Stacy Gougoulis. Looking for another podcast? The Debrief with Dave O'Neil - Dave's other podcasts with comedians after gigs. The Junkees with Dave O'Neil & Kitty Flanagan - The sweet and salty roundabout! Junk food abounds!Support on Lenny.fm: https://www.lenny.fm/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this short AppleVis episode, host Scott Davert walks through how to bind a custom braille display command that instantly announces and brailles the current date and time on an iPhone. The motivation is simple: while the lock screen shows the time, that isn't always convenient; a dedicated braille command lets you check the time anywhere without leaving what you're doing.The conversation centers on VoiceOver's braille command customization inside iOS. Scott explains that, as of this recording, iOS does not offer an equivalent mapping for a connected QWERTY keyboard or a native touchscreen gesture; he hopes Apple adds those options later. He also points out a brief “silent” behavior in one of the command menus where speech may stop speaking; there's a quick recovery keystroke for that. Finally, he clarifies that longer braille displays can show the entire date and time on one line, while shorter displays (like 20-cell units) may require a single pan forward to reveal all details.Step-by-step: Assign a braille display command to announce the time on iOSOpen Settings on your iPhone with VoiceOver enabled.Go to Accessibility → VoiceOver → Braille.Select your connected braille display (e.g., Braille Edge) to open its command categories.Open the section for assigning Braille button commands.If speech goes quiet on this screen, press Space + dot 4 once to restore speech.Press Space + F to use Find, type time, and navigate to the Time action.Activate Assign New Braille Keys.When prompted, press your desired chord (example: Enter + T for “time”). If it doesn't register, activate Assign again and retry promptly.Test your new binding: press the chord and confirm VoiceOver speaks—and your display shows—the current date and time.On 20-cell displays, pan forward once if the full string doesn't fit.Press Space + Backspace (dots 7–8) to back out when finished.Tip: To jump quickly to the Assign New Braille Keys control when it's at the bottom of the list, try Space + dots 4-5-6.Key details and tips surfaced in the episode include that this workflow is specific to braille displays attached to iOS with VoiceOver enabled, that QWERTY keyboard mapping for the Time action isn't available yet, and that using space with dots 4-5-6 is a quick way to jump to the “Assign New Braille Keys” control if it's at the bottom of the list. Scott's suggested binding—Enter with T—keeps the command memorable and fast. The end result is a friction-free way to check the time from anywhere in iOS, without unlocking or navigating away from your current task.TranscriptDisclaimer: This transcript was generated by AI Note Taker – VoicePen, an AI-powered transcription app. It is not edited or formatted, and it may not accurately capture the speakers' names, voices, or content.Scott: Hey, everybody. It's Scott Devert back for a podcast, this time covering a quick tip, which is how to set up a Braille display command to access the time and date on your iOS device.…

In this episode of WISE On Air, we explore how sensory education is breaking barriers and transforming literacy and numeracy for learners often left behind by traditional systems. We speak with two remarkable WISE Prize finalists who are pioneering innovative solutions for students with diverse needs and communities with limited access to education. From Qatar, Ramy Abdulzaher, Co-Founder and COO of @Bonocle, shares how Braille-based technology and gamified learning tools are improving Arabic literacy for visually impaired students. From Nigeria, Gideon Olanrewaju, Chief Executive Director of the Aid for Rural Education Access Initiative (@AREAi), demonstrates how offline digital pens and multilingual resources are delivering literacy programs to refugee camps with no internet access. In this episode, we discuss: How Braille technology fosters inclusion and engagement for students with visual impairments The potential of Fast Track tools to transform literacy learning for underserved communities How Bonocle adapts its solutions to meet diverse needs across different regions and communities The role of the WISE Prize in helping scale and accelerate these impactful educational initiatives This conversation highlights how touch, sound, and human connection are redefining what literacy and learning mean in the twenty-first century and expanding opportunities for students who are often overlooked. About the Guests: Ramy Abdulzaher is the Co-Founder and COO of Bonocle in Qatar, developing Braille-based solutions to improve Arabic literacy for visually impaired students. Gideon Olanrewaju is the Chief Executive Director of AREAi in Nigeria, leading initiatives that bring literacy to refugee communities through offline and multilingual learning technologies.

You might be familiar with many functions of the Canute 360 from Bristol Braille Technology, but did you know it can work seamlessly with the widely popular Duxbury Braille Translator? When connected to a Windows machine, the Canute can output Braille text in real-time using Duxbury's six-key Braille entry, or display any translated text loaded into the application. This added functionality can significantly enhance the usability of the Canute 360, particularly for those who need to quickly navigate content in a multi-line environment. If you already have Duxbury and the Canute 360, you're set to go! Join Bristol Braille Technology's Ed Rogers and Sight and Sound Technology's Stuart Lawler to learn not only how to set up this integration but also explore a variety of use cases. Don't miss this opportunity to maximize your Canute 360 experience!

20250918 I Love Braille Originally Broadcasted September 18, 2025, on ACB Media 5   This week, under title, "I have a question", there was a question-answer session, in which participants asked questions and the participants who. know answered. It's quite an interactive session.   Sponsored by: East Bay Center for the Blind Access Archives Email Vileen Shah       Find out more at https://acb-community.pinecast.co

2538 Encore of 1741 Together Again – Leaders Who Made a Difference (part 2 of 2) (Sep. 17, 2025) Show Notes Hosts Nancy and Peter Torpey continue the conversation with three leaders in the field of assistive technology: Deane Blazie, Jim Fruchterman, and Ted Henter. They made pioneering contributions to the development of refreshable Braille … Continue reading 2538 Encore of 1741 Together Again – Leaders Who Made a Difference (part 2 of 2) (Sep. 17, 2025) →

Get an honest first look at the Ally Solo smart glasses in action. Steven Scott and Shaun Preece dig into AI-assisted object recognition, usability for blind users, and whether current wearable AI is practical.This episode of Double Tap takes a deep dive into the real-world performance of the Ally Solo glasses. Steven and Shaun listen to a demo of the AI identifying and comparing two oat milk cartons, evaluating speed, detail, and practicality. They debate whether current AI in smart glasses, like Meta Ray-Bans and Ally Solo, truly enhances daily life for blind users or if it's still hampered by delay and inaccuracy. The conversation expands into broader concerns around general versus niche AI models, practical use cases for blind people, and how expectations for wearables often differ from reality. The hosts also touch on the Monarch multi-line Braille display and a listener's experience navigating success, independence, and community perceptions.Relevant LinksEnvision Ally Solos: https://shop.letsenvision.com/en-caMonarch Braille Display: https://www.humanware.com/en-gb/monarchDouble Tap Feedback: mailto:feedback@doubletaponair.com Find Double Tap online: YouTube, Double Tap Website---Follow on:YouTube: https://www.doubletaponair.com/youtubeX (formerly Twitter): https://www.doubletaponair.com/xInstagram: https://www.doubletaponair.com/instagramTikTok: https://www.doubletaponair.com/tiktokThreads: https://www.doubletaponair.com/threadsFacebook: https://www.doubletaponair.com/facebookLinkedIn: https://www.doubletaponair.com/linkedin Subscribe to the Podcast:Apple: https://www.doubletaponair.com/appleSpotify: https://www.doubletaponair.com/spotifyRSS: https://www.doubletaponair.com/podcastiHeadRadio: https://www.doubletaponair.com/iheart About Double TapHosted by the insightful duo, Steven Scott and Shaun Preece, Double Tap is a treasure trove of information for anyone who's blind or partially sighted and has a passion for tech. Steven and Shaun not only demystify tech, but they also regularly feature interviews and welcome guests from the community, fostering an interactive and engaging environment. Tune in every day of the week, and you'll discover how technology can seamlessly integrate into your life, enhancing daily tasks and experiences, even if your sight is limited. "Double Tap" is a registered trademark of Double Tap Productions Inc. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

We're joined with Colleen Pressprich, Catholic author of the book Real Moms of Real Saints, offers hope to mothers of all ages and stages, Alan Migliorato, co-author of Failing Forward: Leadership Lessons for Catholic Teens Today talks about teaching teens financial responsibility and Malachy Fallon, Executive Director of Xavier Society for the Blind, talks about the ministry that provides free religious, spiritual and inspirational reading materials in braille, large print and audio to blind and visually impaired individuals worldwide.

Matt Forbeck is all that and so much more. He grew up in Wisconsin as what he describes as a wimpy kid, too short and not overly healthy. He took to gaming at a pretty early age and has grown to be a game creator, author and award-winning storyteller.   Matt has been designing games now for over 35 years. He tells us how he believes that many of the most successful games today have stories to tell, and he loves to create some of the most successful ones. What I find most intriguing about Matt is that he clearly is absolutely totally happy in his work. For most of Matt's career he has worked for himself and continues today to be an independent freelancer.   Matt and his wife have five children, including a set of quadruplets. The quadruplets are 23 and Matt's oldest son is 28 and is following in his father's footsteps.   During our conversation we touch on interesting topics such as trust and work ethics. I know you will find this episode stimulating and worth listening to more than once.     About the Guest:   Matt Forbeck is an award-winning and New York Times-bestselling author and game designer of over thirty-five novels and countless other books and games. His projects have won a Peabody Award, a Scribe Award, and numerous ENnies and Origins Awards. He is also the president of the Diana Jones Award Foundation, which celebrates excellence in gaming.    Matt has made a living full-time on games and fiction since 1989, when he graduated from the Residential College at the University of Michigan with a degree in Creative Writing. With the exception of a four-year stint as the president of Pinnacle Entertainment Group and a year and a half as the director of the adventure games division of Human Head Studios, he has spent his career as an independent freelancer.   Matt has designed collectible card games, roleplaying games, miniatures games, board games, interactive fiction, interactive audiobooks, games for museum installations, and logic systems for toys. He has directed voiceover work and written short fiction, comic books, novels, screenplays, and video game scripts and stories. His work has been translated into at least 15 languages.   His latest work includes the Marvel Multiverse Role-Playing Game Core Rulebook, the Spider-Verse Expansion, Monster Academy (novels and board game), the Shotguns & Sorcery 5E Sourcebook based on his novels, and the Minecraft: Roll for Adventure game books. He is the father of five, including a set of quadruplets. He lives in Beloit, Wisconsin, with his wife and a rotating cast of college-age children. For more about him and his work, visit Forbeck.com.   Ways to connect with Matt:   Twitter: https://twitter.com/mforbeck Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/forbeck Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/forbeck.com Threads: https://www.threads.net/@mforbeck Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mforbeck/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/forbeck/ Website: https://www.forbeck.com/     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset today. We get to play games. Well, not really, but we'll try. Our guest is Matt Forbeck, who is an award winning author. He is a game designer and all sorts of other kinds of things that I'm sure he's going to tell us about, and we actually just before we started the the episode, we were talking about how one might explore making more games accessible for blind and persons with other disabilities. It's, it's a challenge, and there, there are a lot of tricks. But anyway, Matt, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Matt Forbeck ** 02:02 Well, thank you, Michael for inviting me and having me on. I appreciate it.   Speaker 1 ** 02:06 I think we're going to have a lot of fun, and I think it'll work out really well. I'm I am sure of that. So why don't we start just out of curiosity, why don't you tell us kind of about the early Matt, growing up?   Matt Forbeck ** 02:18 Uh, well, I grew up. I was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I grew up in a little town called Beloit, Wisconsin, which actually live in now, despite having moved away for 13 years at one point, and I had terrible asthma, I was a sick and short kid, and with the advent of medication, I finally started to be healthy when I was around nine, and Part of that, I started getting into playing games, right? Because when you're sick, you do a lot of sitting around rather than running around. So I did a lot of reading and playing games and things like that. I happen to grow up in the part of the world where Dungeons and Dragons was invented, which is in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, about 30 miles from where I live. And because of that I was I started going to conventions and playing games and such, when I was about 12 or 13 years old. I started doing it when I was a little bit older. I started doing it professionally, and started doing it when I was in college. And amazingly enough, even to my own astonishment, I've made a career out of it.   Speaker 1 ** 03:17 Where did you go to college? I went to the University   Matt Forbeck ** 03:21 of Michigan over in Ann Arbor. I had a great time there. There's a wonderful little college, Beloit College, in my hometown here, and most of my family has gone to UW Milwaukee over the years. My parents met at Marquette in Milwaukee, but I wanted to get the heck out of the area, so I went to Michigan, and then found myself coming back as soon as we started having   Speaker 1 ** 03:42 kids well, and of course, I would presume that when you were at the University of Michigan, you rooted for them and against Ohio State. That was   Matt Forbeck ** 03:50 kind of, you know, if you did it the other way around, they back out of town. So, yeah, I was always kind of astonished, though, because having grown up in Wisconsin, where every sports team was a losing team when I was growing up, including the Packers, for decades. You know, we were just happy to be playing. They were more excuse to have beers than they were to cheer on teams. And I went to Michigan where they were, they were angry if the team wasn't up by two touchdowns. You know, at any point, I'm like, You guys are silly. This is we're here for fun.   Speaker 1 ** 04:17 But it is amazing how seriously some people take sports. I remember being in New Zealand helping the Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind. Well now 22 years ago, it's 2003 and the America's Cup had just finished before we got there, and in America beat New Zealand, and the people in New Zealand were just irate. They were complaining that the government didn't put enough money into the design of the boat and helping with the with the yacht and all that. It was just amazing how seriously people take it, yeah,   Matt Forbeck ** 04:58 once, I mean, it becomes a part of your. Identity in a lot of ways, right for many people, and I've never had to worry about that too much. I've got other things on my mind, but there you go.   Speaker 1 ** 05:08 Well, I do like it when the Dodgers win, and my wife did her graduate work at USC, and so I like it when the Trojans win, but it's not the end of the world, and you do need to keep it in perspective. I I do wish more people would I know once I delivered a speech in brether County, Kentucky, and I was told that when I started the speech had to end no later than preferably exactly at 6:30pm not a minute later, because it was the night of the NCAA Basketball Championship, and the Kentucky Wildcats were in the championship, and at 630 everyone was going to get up and leave and go home to watch the game. So I ended at 630 and literally, by 631 I timed it. The gym was empty and it was full to start with.   Matt Forbeck ** 06:02 People were probably, you know, counting down on their watches, just to make sure, right?   Speaker 1 ** 06:06 Oh, I'm sure they were. What do you do? It's, it is kind of fun. Well, so why did you decide to get started in games? What? What? What attracted to you, to it as a young person, much less later on?   Matt Forbeck ** 06:21 Well, I was, yeah, I was an awkward kid, kind of nerdy and, you know, glasses and asthma and all that kind of stuff. And games were the kind of thing where, if you didn't know how to interact with people, you could sit down at a table across them and you could practice. You can say, okay, we're all here. We've got this kind of a magic circle around us where we've agreed to take this one silly activity seriously for a short period of time, right? And it may be that you're having fun during that activity, but you know, there's, there's no reason that rolling dice or moving things around on a table should be taken seriously. It's all just for fun, right? But for that moment, you actually just like Las Vegas Exactly, right? When there's money on the line, it's different, but if you're just doing it for grins. You know, it was a good way for me to learn how to interact with people of all sorts and of different ages. And I really enjoyed playing the games, and I really wanted to be a writer, too. And a lot of these things interacted with story at a very basic level. So breaking in as a writer is tough, but it turned out breaking as a game designer, wasn't nearly his stuff, so I started out over there instead, because it was a very young field at the time, right? D and D is now 50 years old, so I've been doing this 35 years, which means I started around professionally and even doing it before that, I started in the period when the game and that industry were only like 10 or 15 years old, so yeah, weren't quite as much competition in those   Speaker 1 ** 07:43 days. I remember some of the early games that I did play, that I could play, were DOS based games, adventure. You're familiar with adventure? Yeah, oh, yeah. Then later, Zork and all that. And I still think those are fun games. And I the reason I like a lot of those kinds of games is they really make you think, which I think most games do, even though the video even the video games and so on, they they help your or can help your reactions, but they're designed by people who do try to make you think,   Matt Forbeck ** 08:15 yeah. I mean, we basically are designing puzzles for people to solve, even if they're story puzzles or graphic puzzles or sound puzzles or whatever, you know, even spatial puzzles. There the idea is to give somebody something fun that is intriguing to play with, then you end up coming with story and after that, because after a while, even the most most exciting mechanics get dull, right? I mean, you start out shooting spaceships, but you can only shoot spaceships for so long, or you start out playing Tetris, and you only put shapes together for so long before it doesn't mean anything that then you start adding in story to give people a reason to keep playing right and a reason to keep going through these things. And I've written a lot of video games over the years, basically with that kind of a philosophy, is give people nuggets of story, give them a plot to work their way through, and reward them for getting through different stages, and they will pretty much follow you through anything. It's amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 09:09 Is that true Dungeons and Dragons too?   Matt Forbeck ** 09:13 It is. All of the stories are less structured there. If you're doing a video game, you know you the team has a lot of control over you. Give the player a limited amount of control to do things, but if you're playing around a table with people, it's more of a cooperative kind of experience, where we're all kind of coming up with a story, the narrator or the Game Master, the Dungeon Master, sets the stage for everything, but then the players have a lot of leeway doing that, and they will always screw things up for you, too. No matter what you think is going to happen, the players will do something different, because they're individuals, and they're all amazing people. That's actually to me, one of the fun things about doing tabletop games is that, you know, the computer can only react in a limited number of ways, whereas a human narrator and actually change things quite drastically and roll. With whatever people come up with, and that makes it tremendous fun.   Speaker 1 ** 10:04 Do you think AI is going to enter into all that and maybe improve some of the   Matt Forbeck ** 10:09 old stuff? It's going to add your end to it, whether it's an ad, it's going to approve it as a large question. Yeah. So I've been ranting about AI quite a bit lately with my friends and family. But, you know, I think the problem with AI, it can be very helpful a lot of ways, but I think it's being oversold. And I think it's especially when it's being oversold for thing, for ways for people to replace writers and creative thinking, Yeah, you know, you're taking the fun out of everything. I mean, the one thing I like to say is if, if you can't be bothered to write this thing that you want to communicate to me, I'm not sure why I should be bothered to read this thing well.   Speaker 1 ** 10:48 And I think that AI will will evolve in whatever way it does. But the fact of the matter is, So do people. And I think that, in fact, people are always going to be necessary to make the process really work? AI can only do and computers can only do so much. I mean, even Ray Kurzweil talks about the singularity when people and computer brains are married, but that still means that you're going to have the human element. So it's not all going to be the computer. And I'm not ready to totally buy into to what Ray says. And I used to work for Ray, so I mean, I know Ray Well, but, but the but the bottom line is, I think that, in fact, people are always going to be able to be kind of the, the mainstay of it, as long as we allow that, if we, if we give AI too much power, then over time, it'll take more power, and that's a problem, but that's up to us to deal with?   Matt Forbeck ** 11:41 No, I totally agree with that. I just think right now, there's a very large faction of people who it's in their economic interest to oversell these things. You know, people are making chips. They're building server farms. A lot of them are being transferred from people are doing blockchain just a few years ago, and they see it as the hot new thing. The difference is that AI actually has a lot of good uses. There's some amazing things will come out of llms and such. But I again, people are over the people are selling this to us. Are often over promising things, right?   Speaker 1 ** 12:11 Yeah, well, they're not only over promising but they're they're really misdirecting people. But the other side of it is that, that, in fact, AI as a concept and as a technology is here, and we have control over how we use it. I've said a couple times on this this podcast, and I've said to others, I remember when I first started hearing about AI, I heard about the the fact that teachers were bemoaning the pack, that kids were writing their papers just using AI and turning them in, and it wasn't always easy to tell whether it was something that was written by AI or was written by the student. And I come from a little bit different view than I think a lot of people do. And my view basically is, let the kids write it if with AI, if that's what they're going to do, but then what the teacher needs to do is to take one period, for example, and give every student in that class the opportunity to come up and defend whatever paper they have. And the real question is, can they defend the paper? Which means, have they really learned the subject, or are they just relying on AI,   Matt Forbeck ** 13:18 yeah, I agree with that. I think the trouble is, a lot of people, children, you know, who are developing their abilities and their morals about this stuff, they use it as just a way to complete the assignment, right? And many of them don't even read what they turn in, right, right? Just know that they've got something here that will so again, if you can't be bothered to read the thing that you manufactured, you're not learning anything about it,   Speaker 1 ** 13:39 which is why, if you are forced to defend it, it's going to become pretty obvious pretty fast, whether you really know it or not. Now, I've used AI on a number of occasions in various ways, but I use it to maybe give me ideas or prepare something that I then modify and shape. And I may even interact with AI a couple of times, but I'm definitely involved with the process all the way down the line, because it still has to be something that I'm responsible for.   Matt Forbeck ** 14:09 I agree. I mean, the whole point of doing these things is for people to connect with each other, right? I want to learn about the ideas you have in your head. I want to see how they jive with ones in my head. But if I'm just getting something that's being spit out by a machine and not you, and not being curated by you at any point, that doesn't seem very useful, right? So if you're the more involved people are in it, the more useful it is.   Speaker 1 ** 14:31 Well, I agree, and you know, I think again, it's a tool, and we have to decide how the tool is going to be used, which is always the way it ought to be. Right?   Matt Forbeck ** 14:42 Exactly, although sometimes it's large corporations deciding,   Speaker 1 ** 14:45 yeah, well, there's that too. Well, individuals,   Matt Forbeck ** 14:49 we get to make our own choices. Though you're right,   Speaker 1 ** 14:51 yes, and should Well, so, so when did you start bringing writing into what you. Did, and make that a really significant part of what you did?   Matt Forbeck ** 15:03 Well, pretty early on, I mean, I started doing one of the first things I did was a gaming zine, which was basically just a print magazine that was like, you know, 32 pages, black and white, about the different tabletop games. So we were writing those in the days, design and writing are very closely linked when it comes to tabletop games and even in video games. The trick of course is that designing a game and writing the rules are actually two separate sets of skills. So one of the first professional gig I ever had during writing was in games was some friends of mine had designed a game for a company called Mayfair games, which went on to do sellers of contain, which is a big, uh, entry level game, and but they needed somebody to write the rules, so they called me over, showed me how to play the game. I took notes and I I wrote it down in an easy to understand, clear way that people had just picked up the box. Could then pick it up and teach themselves how to play, right? So that was early on how I did it. But the neat thing about that is it also taught me to think about game design. I'm like, when I work on games, I think about, who is this game going to be for, and how are we going to teach it to them? Because if they can't learn the game, there's no point of the game at all, right?   Speaker 1 ** 16:18 And and so I'm right? I'm a firm believer that a lot of technical writers don't do a very good job of technical writing, and they write way over people's heads. I remember the first time I had to write, well, actually, I mentioned I worked for Kurzweil. I was involved with a project where Ray Kurzweil had developed his original omniprent optical character recognition system. And I and the National Federation of the Blind created with him a project to put machines around the country so that blind people could use them and give back to Ray by the time we were all done, recommendations as to what needed to go in the final first production model of the machine. So I had to write a training manual to teach people how to use it. And I wrote this manual, and I was always of the opinion that it had to be pretty readable and usable by people who didn't have a lot of technical knowledge. So I wrote the manual, gave it to somebody to read, and said, Follow the directions and and work with the machine and all that. And they did, and I was in another room, and they were playing with it for a couple of hours, and they came in and they said, I'm having a problem. I can't figure out how to turn off the machine. And it turns out that I had forgotten to put in the instruction to turn off the machine. And it wasn't totally trivial. There were steps you had to go through. It was a Data General Nova two computer, and you had to turn it off the right way and the whole system off the appropriate way, or you could, could mess everything up. So there was a process to doing it. So I wrote it in, and it was fine. But, you know, I've always been a believer that the textbooks are way too boring. Having a master's degree in physics, I am of the opinion that physics textbook writers, who are usually pretty famous and knowledgeable scientists, ought to include with all the text and the technical stuff they want to put in, they should put in stories about what they did in you bring people in, draw them into the whole thing, rather than just spewing out a bunch of technical facts.   Matt Forbeck ** 18:23 No, I agree. My my first calculus professor was a guy who actually explained how Newton and Leipzig actually came up with calculus, and then he would, you know, draw everything on the board and turn around say, and isn't that amazing? And you were, like, just absolutely enamored with the idea of how they had done these things, right? Yeah. And what you're doing there, when you, when you, when you give the instructions to somebody and say, try this out. That's a very big part of gaming, actually, because what we do this thing called play testing, where we take something before it's ready to be shown to the public, and we give it to other people and say, try this out. See how it works. Let me know when you're starting out of your first playing you play with like your family and friends and people will be brutal with you and give you hints about how you can improve things. But then, even when you get to the rules you're you send those out cold to people, or, you know, if you're a big company, you watch them through a two way mirror or one way mirror, and say, Hey, let's see how they react to everything. And then you take notes, and you try to make it better every time you go through. And when I'm teaching people to play games at conventions, for instance, I will often say to them, please ask questions if you don't understand anything, that doesn't mean you're dumb. Means I didn't explain it well enough, right? And my job as a person writing these rules is to explain it as well as I humanly can so it can't be misconstrued or misinterpreted. Now that doesn't mean you can correct everything. Somebody's always got like, Oh, I missed that sentence, you know, whatever. But you do that over and over so you can try to make it as clear and concise as possible, yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 19:52 Well, you have somewhat of a built in group of people to help if you let your kids get involved. Involved. So how old are your kids?   Matt Forbeck ** 20:03 My eldest is 26 he'll be 27 in January. Marty is a game designer, actually works with me on the marble tabletop role playing game, and we have a new book coming out, game book for Minecraft, called Minecraft role for adventure, that's coming out on July 7, I think, and the rest of the kids are 23 we have 423 year olds instead of quadruplets, one of whom is actually going into game design as well, and the other says two are still in college, and one has moved off to the work in the woods. He's a very woodsy boy. Likes to do environmental education with people.   Speaker 1 ** 20:39 Wow. Well, see, but you, but you still have a good group of potential game designers or game critics anyway.   Matt Forbeck ** 20:47 Oh, we all play games together. We have a great time. We do weekly game nights here. Sometimes they're movie nights, sometimes they're just pizza nights, but we shoot for game and pizza   Speaker 1 ** 20:56 if we get lucky and your wife goes along with all this too.   Matt Forbeck ** 21:00 She does. She doesn't go to the game conventions and stuff as much, and she's not as hardcore of a gamer, but she likes hanging out with the kids and doing everything with us. We have a great time.   Speaker 1 ** 21:10 That's that's pretty cool. Well, you, you've got, you've got to build an audience of some sorts, and that's neat that a couple of them are involved in it as well. So they really like what dad does, yeah,   Matt Forbeck ** 21:23 yeah. We, I started taking them each to conventions, which are, you know, large gatherings gamers in real life. The biggest one is Gen Con, which happens in Indianapolis in August. And last year, I think, we had 72,000 people show up. And I started taking the kids when they were 10 years old, and my wife would come up with them then. And, you know, 10 years old is a lot. 72,000 people is a lot for a 10 year old. So she can mention one day and then to a park the next day, you know, decompress a lot, and then come back on Saturday and then leave on Sunday or whatever, so that we didn't have them too over stimulated. But they really grown to love it. I mean, it's part of our annual family traditions in the summer, is to go do these conventions and play lots of games with each other and meet new people too well.   Speaker 1 ** 22:08 And I like the way you put it. The games are really puzzles, which they are, and it's and it's fun. If people would approach it that way, no matter what the game is, they're, they're aspects of puzzles involved in most everything that has to do with the game, and that's what makes it so fun.   Matt Forbeck ** 22:25 Exactly, no. The interesting thing is, when you're playing with other people, the other people are changing the puzzles from their end that you have to solve on your end. And sometimes the puzzle is, how do I beat this person, or how do I defeat their strategy, or how do I make an alliance with somebody else so we can win? And it's really always very intriguing. There's so many different types of games. There's nowadays, there's like something like 50 to 100 new board games that come out and tabletop games every month, right? It's just like a fire hose. It's almost like, when I was starting out as a novelist, I would go into Barnes and Noble or borders and go, Oh my gosh, look at all these books. And now I do the same thing about games. It's just, it's incredible. Nobody, no one person, could keep up with all of them.   Speaker 1 ** 23:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah, way too much. I would love to explore playing more video games, but I don't. I don't own a lot of the technology, although I'm sure that there are any number of them that can be played on a computer, but we'll have to really explore and see if we can find some. I know there are some that are accessible for like blind people with screen readers. I know that some people have written a few, which is kind of cool. Yeah.   Matt Forbeck ** 23:36 And Xbox has got a new controller out that's meant to be accessible to large amount of people. I'm not sure, all the different aspects of it, but that's done pretty well, too   Speaker 1 ** 23:44 well. And again, it comes down to making it a priority to put all of that stuff in. It's not like it's magic to do. It's just that people don't know how to do it. But I also think something else, which is, if you really make the products more usable, let's say by blind people with screen readers. You may be especially if it's well promoted, surprised. I'm not you necessarily, but people might well be surprised as to how many others might take advantage of it so that they don't necessarily have to look at the screen, or that you're forced to listen as well as look in order to figure out what's going on or take actions.   Matt Forbeck ** 24:29 No, definitely true. It's, you know, people audio books are a massive thing nowadays. Games tend to fall further behind that way, but it's become this incredible thing that obviously, blind people get a great use out of but my wife is addicted to audio books now. She actually does more of those than she does reading. I mean, I technically think they're both reading. It's just one's done with yours and one's done with your eyes.   Speaker 1 ** 24:51 Yeah, there's but there's some stuff, whether you're using your eyes or your fingers and reading braille, there's something about reading a book that way that's. Even so a little bit different than listening to it. Yeah, and there's you're drawn in in some ways, in terms of actually reading that you're not necessarily as drawn into when you're when you're listening to it, but still, really good audio book readers can help draw you in, which is important, too,   Matt Forbeck ** 25:19 very much. So yeah, I think the main difference for reading, whether it's, you know, again, through Braille or through traditional print, is that you can stop. You can do it at your own pace. You can go back and look at things very easily, or read or check things, read things very easily. That you know, if you're reading, if you're doing an audio book, it just goes on and it's straight on, boom, boom, boom, pace. You can say, Wait, I'm going to put this down here. What was that thing? I remember back there? It was like three pages back, but it's really important, let me go check that right.   Speaker 1 ** 25:50 There are some technologies that allow blind people and low vision people and others, like people with dyslexia to use an audio book and actually be able to navigate two different sections of it. But it's not something that is generally available to the whole world, at least to the level that it is for blind people. But I can, I can use readers that are made to be able to accept the different formats and go back and look at pages, go back and look at headings, and even create bookmarks to bookmark things like you would normally by using a pen or a pencil or something like that. So there are ways to do some of that. So again, the technology is making strides.   Matt Forbeck ** 26:37 That's fantastic. Actually, it's wonderful. Just, yeah, it's great. I actually, you know, I lost half the vision of my right eye during back through an autoimmune disease about 13 years ago, and I've always had poor vision. So I'm a big fan of any kind of way to make things easier,   Speaker 1 ** 26:54 like that. Well, there, there are things that that are available. It's pretty amazing. A guy named George curser. Curser created a lot of it years ago, and it's called the DAISY format. And the whole idea behind it is that you can actually create a book. In addition to the audio tracks, there are XML files that literally give you the ability to move and navigate around the book, depending on how it's created, as final level as you choose.   Matt Forbeck ** 27:25 Oh, that's That's amazing. That's fantastic. I'm actually really glad to hear that.   Speaker 1 ** 27:28 So, yeah, it is kind of fun. So there's a lot of technology that's that's doing a lot of different sorts of things and and it helps. But um, so for you, in terms of dealing with, with the games, you've, you've written games, but you've, you've actually written some novels as well, right?   Matt Forbeck ** 27:50 Yeah, I've got like 30, it depends on how you count a novel, right? Okay, like some of my books are to pick a path books, right? Choose Your Own Adventure type stuff. So, but I've got 35 traditional novels written or more, I guess, now, I lost track a while ago, and probably another dozen of these interactive fiction books as well. So, and I like doing those. I've also written things like Marvel encyclopedias and Avengers encyclopedias and all sorts of different pop culture books. And, you know, I like playing in different worlds. I like writing science fiction, fantasy, even modern stuff. And most of it, for me comes down to telling stories, right? If you like to tell stories, you can tell stories through a game or book or audio play or a TV show or a comic, or I've done, you know, interactive museum, games and displays, things like that. The main thing is really a story. I mean, if you're comfortable sitting down at a bar and having a drink with somebody, doesn't have to be alcohol, just sitting down and telling stories with each other for fun. That's where the core of it all is really   Speaker 1 ** 28:58 right. Tell me about interactive fiction book.   Matt Forbeck ** 29:01 Sure, a lot of these are basically just done, like flow charts, kind of like the original Zork and adventure that you were talking about where you I actually, I was just last year, I brought rose Estes, who's the inventor of the endless quest books, which were a cross between Dungeons and Dragons, and choose your own adventure books. She would write the whole thing out page by page on a typewriter, and then, in order to shuffle the pages around so that people wouldn't just read straight through them, she'd throw them all up in the air and then just put them back in whatever order they happen to be. But essentially, you read a section of a book, you get to the end, and it gives you a choice. Would you like to go this way or that way? Would you like to go beat up this goblin? Or would you like to make friends with this warrior over here? If you want to do one of these things, go do page xx, right? Got it. So then you turn to that page and you go, boom, some, actually, some of the endless quest books I know were turned into audio books, right? And I actually, I. Um, oddly, have written a couple Dungeons and Dragons, interactive books, audio books that have only been released in French, right? Because there's a company called Looney l, u n, i, i that has this little handheld device that's for children, that has an A and a B button and a volume button. And you, you know, you get to the point that says, if you want to do this, push a, if you want to do that, push B, and the kids can go through these interactive stories and and, you know, there's ones for clue and Dungeons and Dragons and all sorts of other licenses, and some original stories too. But that way there's usually, like, you know, it depends on the story, but sometimes there's, like, 10 to 20 different endings. A lot of them are like, Oh no, you've been killed. Go back to where you started, right? And if you're lucky, the longer ones are, the more fun ones. And you get to, you know, save the kingdom and rescue the people and make good friends and all that good stuff,   Michael Hingson ** 30:59 yeah, and maybe fall in love with the princess or Prince.   Matt Forbeck ** 31:02 Yeah, exactly right. It all depends on the genre and what you're working in. But the idea is to give people some some choices over how they want the story to go. You're like, Well, do you want to investigate this dark, cold closet over here, or would you rather go running outside and playing around? And some of them can seem like very innocent choices, and other ones are like, well, uh, 10 ton weight just fell on. You go back to the last thing.   Speaker 1 ** 31:23 So that dark hole closet can be a good thing or a bad thing,   Matt Forbeck ** 31:28 exactly. And the trick is to make the deaths the bad endings, actually just as entertaining as anything else, right? And then people go, Well, I got beat, and I gotta go back and try that again. So yeah, if they just get the good ending all the way through, they often won't go back and look at all the terrible ones. So it's fun to trick them sometimes and have them go into terrible spots. And I like to put this one page in books too that sometimes says, How did you get here? You've been cheating there. This book, this page, is actually not led to from any other part of the book. You're just flipping   Speaker 1 ** 31:59 through. Cheater, cheater book, do what you   Matt Forbeck ** 32:04 want, but if you want to play it the right way, go back.   Speaker 1 ** 32:07 Kid, if you want to play the game. Yeah, exactly. On the other hand, some people are nosy.   Matt Forbeck ** 32:15 You know, I was always a kid who would poke around and wanted to see how things were, so I'm sure I would have found that myself but absolutely related, you know,   Speaker 1 ** 32:23 yeah, I had a general science teacher who brought in a test one day, and he gave it to everyone. And so he came over to me because it was, it was a printed test. He said, Well, I'm not going to give you the test, because the first thing it says is, read all the instructions, read, read the test through before you pass it, before you take it. And he said, most people won't do that. And he said, I know you would. And the last question on the test is answer, only question one.   Matt Forbeck ** 32:55 That's great. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 32:57 that was cute. And he said, I know that. I that there's no way you would, would would fall for that, because you would say, Okay, let's read the instructions and then read the whole test. That's what it said. And the instruction were, just read the whole test before you start. And people won't do that.   Matt Forbeck ** 33:13 No, they'll go through, take the whole thing. They get there and go, oh, did I get there? Was a, there's a game publisher. I think it was Steve Jackson Games, when they were looking for people, write for them, or design stuff for them, or submit stuff to them, would have something toward the end of the instructions that would say, put like a the letter seven, or put seven a on page one right, and that way they would know if you had read the instructions, if you hadn't bothered to Read the instructions, they wouldn't bother reading anything else.   Speaker 1 ** 33:42 Yeah, which is fair, because the a little harsh, well, but, but, you know, we often don't learn enough to pay attention to details. I know that when I was taking physics in college, that was stressed so often it isn't enough to get the numbers right. If you don't get the units right as well. Then you're, you're not really paying attention to the details. And paying attention to the details is so important.   Matt Forbeck ** 34:07 That's how they crash from those Mars rovers, wasn't it? They somebody messed up the units, but going back and forth between metric and, yeah, and Imperial and, well, you know, it cost somebody a lot of money at one point. Yeah. Yeah. What do you   Speaker 1 ** 34:21 this is kind of the way it goes. Well, tell me, yeah. Well, they do matter, no matter what people think, sometimes they do matter. Well, tell me about the Diana Jones award. First of all, of course, the logical question for many people is, who is Diana Jones? Yeah, Diana Jones doesn't exist, right? That's There you go. She's part game somewhere? No, no, it doesn't be in a game somewhere.   Matt Forbeck ** 34:43 Then now there's actually an author named Diana Wynne Jones, who's written some amazing fantasy stories, including Howell's Moving Castle, which has turned into a wonderful anime movie, but it has nothing to do with her or any other person. Because originally, the Diana Jones award came about. Because a friend of mine, James Wallace, had somehow stumbled across a trophy that fell into his hands, and it was a pub trivia trophy that used to be used between two different gaming companies in the UK, and one of those was TSR, UK, the United Kingdom department. And at one point, the company had laid off everybody in that division just say, Okay, we're closing it all down. So the guys went and burned a lot of the stuff that they had, including a copy of the Indiana Jones role playing game, and the only part of the logo that was left said Diana Jones. And for some reason, they put this in a in a fiberglass or Plexiglas pyramid, put it on a base, a wooden base, and it said the Diana Jones award trophy, right? And this was the trophy that they used they passed back and forth as a joke for their pub trivia contest. Fell into James's hands, and he decided, You know what, we're going to give this out for the most excellent thing in gaming every year. And we've now done this. This will be 25 years this summer. We do it at the Wednesday night before Gen Con, which starts on Thursday, usually at the end of July or early August. And as part of that, actually, about five years ago, we started, one of the guys suggested we should do something called the emerging designers program. So we actually became a 501, c3, so we could take donations. And now we take four designers every year, fly them in from wherever they happen to be in the world, and put them up in a hotel, give them a badge the show, introduce them to everybody, give them an honorarium so they can afford to skip work for a week and try to help launch their careers. I mean, these are people that are in the first three years of their design careers, and we try to work mostly with marginalized or et cetera, people who need a little bit more representation in the industry too. Although we can select anybody, and it's been really well received, it's been amazing. And there's a group called the bundle of holding which sells tabletop role playing game PDFs, and they've donated 10s of 1000s of dollars every year for us to be able to do this. And it's kind of funny, because I never thought I'd be end up running a nonprofit, but here I'm just the guy who writes checks to the different to the emerging designer program. Folks are much more tied into that community that I am. But one of the real reasons I wanted to do something like that or be involved with it, because if you wander around with these conventions and you notice that it starts getting very gray after a while, right? It's you're like, oh, there's no new people coming in. It's all older people. I we didn't I didn't want us to all end up as like the Grandpa, grandpa doing the HO model railroad stuff in the basement, right? This dying hobby that only people in their 60s and 70s care about. So bringing in fresh people, fresh voices, I think, is very important, and hopefully we're doing some good with that. It's been a lot of fun either way.   Speaker 1 ** 37:59 Well, I have you had some success with it? Yeah, we've   Matt Forbeck ** 38:02 had, well, let's see. I think we've got like 14 people. We've brought in some have already gone on to do some amazing things. I mean, it's only been a few years, so it's hard to tell if they're gonna be legends in their time, but again, having them as models for other people to look at and say, Oh, maybe I could do that. That's been a great thing. The other well, coincidentally, Dungeons and Dragons is having its best 10 year streak in its history right now, and probably is the best selling it's ever been. So coinciding with that, we've seen a lot more diversity and a lot more people showing up to these wonderful conventions and playing these kinds of games. There's also been an advent of this thing called actual play, which is the biggest one, is a group called Critical Role, which is a whole bunch of voice actors who do different cartoons and video games and such, and they play D and D with each other, and then they record the games, and they produce them on YouTube and for podcasts. And these guys are amazing. There's a couple of other ones too, like dimension 20 and glass cannon, the critical role guys actually sold out a live performance at Wembley Arena last summer. Wow. And dimension. Dimension 20 sold out Madison Square Garden. I'm like, if you'd have told me 20 years ago that you know you could sell out an entire rock stadium to have people watch you play Dungeons and Dragons, I would have laughed. I mean, there's no way it would have been possible. But now, you know, people are very much interested in this. It's kind of wild, and it's, it's fun to be a part of that. At some level,   Speaker 1 ** 39:31 how does the audience get drawn in to something like that? Because they are watching it, but there must be something that draws them in.   Matt Forbeck ** 39:39 Yeah, part of it is that you have some really skilled some actors are very funny, very traumatic and very skilled at improvisation, right? So the the dungeon master or Game Master will sit there and present them with an idea or whatever. They come up each with their own characters. They put them in wonderful, strong voices. They kind of inhabit the roles in a way that an actor. A really top level actor would, as opposed to just, you know, me sitting around a table with my friends. And because of that, they become compelling, right? My Marty and my his wife and I were actually at a convention in Columbus, Ohio last weekend, and this group called the McElroy family, actually, they do my brother, my brother and me, which is a hit podcast, but they also do an actual play podcast called The Adventure zone, where they just play different games. And they are so funny. These guys are just some of the best comedians you'll ever hear. And so them playing, they actually played our Marvel game for a five game session, or a five podcast session, or whatever, and it was just stunningly fun to listen to. People are really talented mess around with something that we built right it's very edifying to see people enjoying something that you worked on.   Speaker 1 ** 40:51 Do you find that the audiences get drawn in and they're actually sort of playing the game along, or as well? And may disagree with what some of the choices are that people make?   Matt Forbeck ** 41:02 Oh, sure. But I mean, if the choices are made from a point of the character that's been expressed, that people are following along and they they already like the character, they might go, Oh, those mean, you know that guy, there are some characters they love to hate. There are some people they're they're angry at whatever, but they always really appreciate the actors. I mean, the actors have become celebrities in their own right. They've they sell millions of dollars for the comic books and animated TV shows and all these amazing things affiliated with their actual play stuff. And it's, I think it, part of it is because, it's because it makes the games more accessible. Some people are intimidated by these games. So it's not really, you know, from a from a physical disability kind of point. It's more of a it makes it more accessible for people to be nervous, to try these things on their own, or don't really quite get how they work. They can just sit down and pop up YouTube or their podcast program and listen into people doing a really good job at it. The unfortunate problem is that the converse of that is, when you're watching somebody do that good of a job at it, it's actually hard to live up to that right. Most people who play these games are just having fun with their friends around a table. They're not performing for, you know, 10s of 1000s, if not hundreds of 1000s of people. So there's a different level of investments, really, at that point, and some people have been known to be cowed by that, by that, or daunted by that.   Speaker 1 ** 42:28 You work on a lot of different things. I gather at the same time. What do you what do you think about that? How do you like working on a lot of different projects? Or do you, do you more focus on one thing, but you've got several things going on, so you'll work on something for one day, then you'll work on something else. Or how do you how do you do it all?   Matt Forbeck ** 42:47 That's a good question. I would love to just focus on one thing at a time. Now, you know the trouble is, I'm a freelancer, right? I don't set my I don't always get to say what I want to work on. I haven't had to look for work for over a decade, though, which has been great. People just come to me with interesting things. The trouble is that when you're a freelancer, people come in and say, Hey, let's work on this. I'm like, Yeah, tell me when you're ready to start. And you do that with like, 10 different people, and they don't always line up in sequence properly, right? Yeah? Sometimes somebody comes up and says, I need this now. And I'm like, Yeah, but I'm in the middle of this other thing right now, so I need to not sleep for another week, and I need to try to figure out how I'm going to put this in between other things I'm working on. And I have noticed that after I finish a project, it takes me about a day or three to just jump track. So if I really need to, I can do little bits here and there, but to just fully get my brain wrapped around everything I'm doing for a very complex project, takes me a day or three to say, Okay, now I'm ready to start this next thing and really devote myself to it. Otherwise, it's more juggling right now, having had all those kids, probably has prepared me to juggle. So I'm used to having short attention span theater going on in my head at all times, because I have to jump back and forth between things. But it is. It's a challenge, and it's a skill that you develop over time where you're like, Okay, I can put this one away here and work on this one here for a little while. Like today, yeah, I knew I was going to talk to you, Michael. So I actually had lined up another podcast that a friend of mine wanted to do with me. I said, Let's do them on the same day. This way I'm not interrupting my workflow so much, right? Makes sense? You know, try to gang those all together and the other little fiddly bits I need to do for administration on a day. Then I'm like, Okay, this is not a day off. It's just a day off from that kind of work. It's a day I'm focusing on this aspect of what I do.   Speaker 1 ** 44:39 But that's a actually brings up an interesting point. Do you ever take a day off or do what do you do when you're when you deciding that you don't want to do gaming for a while?   Matt Forbeck ** 44:49 Yeah, I actually kind of terrible. But you know, you know, my wife will often drag me off to places and say we're going to go do this when. Yes, we have a family cabin up north in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan that we go to. Although, you know, my habit there is, I'll work. I'll start work in the morning on a laptop or iPad until my battery runs out, and then I shut it down, put on a charger, and then I go out and swim with everybody for the rest of the day. So it depends if I'm on a deadline or not, and I'm almost always on a deadline, but there are times I could take weekends off there. One of the great things of being a freelancer, though, and especially being a stay at home father, which is part of what I was doing, is that when things come up during the middle of the week, I could say, oh, sure, I can be flexible, right? The trouble is that I have to pay for that time on my weekends, a lot of the time, so I don't really get a lot of weekends off. On the other hand, I'm not I'm not committed to having to work every day of the week either, right? I need to go do doctor appointments, or we want to run off to Great America and do a theme park or whatever. I can do that anytime I want to. It's just I have to make up the time at other points during the week. Does your wife work? She does. She was a school social worker for many years, and now as a recruiter at a local technical college here called Black Hawk tech. And she's amazing, right? She's fantastic. She has always liked working. The only time she stopped working was for about a year and a half after the quads were born, I guess, two years. And that was the only time I ever took a job working with anybody else, because we needed the health insurance, so I we always got it through her. And then when she said, Well, I'm gonna stay home with the kids, which made tons of sense, I went and took a job with a video game company up in Madison, Wisconsin called Human Head Studios for about 18 months, 20 months. And then the moment she told me she was thinking about going back to work, I'm like, Oh, good, I can we can Cobra for 18 months and pay for our own health insurance, and I'm giving notice this week, and, you know, we'll work. I left on good terms that everybody. I still talk to them and whatever, but I very much like being my own boss and not worrying about what other people are going to tell me to do. I work with a lot of clients, which means I have a lot of people telling me what to do. But you know, if it turns out bad, I can walk I can walk away. If it turns out good, hopefully we get to do things together, like the the gig I've been working out with Marvel, I guess, has been going on for like, four years now, with pretty continuous work with them, and I'm enjoying every bit of it. They're great people to work with.   Speaker 1 ** 47:19 Now, you were the president of Pinnacle entertainment for a little while. Tell me about that.   Matt Forbeck ** 47:24 I was, that was a small gaming company I started up with a guy named Shane Hensley, who was another tabletop game designer. Our big game was something called Dead Lands, which was a Western zombie cowboy kind of thing. Oh gosh, Western horror. So. And it was pretty much a, you know, nobody was doing Western horror back in those days. So we thought, Oh, this is safe. And to give you an example of parallel development, we were six months into development, and another company, White Wolf, which had done a game called Vampire the Masquerade, announced that they were doing Werewolf the Wild West. And we're like, you gotta be kidding me, right? Fortunately, we still released our game three months before there, so everybody thought we were copying them, rather than the other way around. But the fact is, we were. We both just came up with the idea independently. Right? When you work in creative fields, often, if somebody wants to show you something, you say, I'd like to look at you have to sign a waiver first that says, If I do something like this, you can't sue me. And it's not because people are trying to rip you off. It's because they may actually be working on something similar, right already. Because we're all, you know, swimming in the same cultural pool. We're all, you know, eating the same cultural soup. We're watching or watching movies, playing games, doing whatever, reading books. And so it's not unusual that some of us will come up with similar ideas   Speaker 1 ** 48:45 well, and it's not surprising that from time to time, two different people are going to come up with somewhat similar concepts. So that's not a big surprise, exactly, but   Matt Forbeck ** 48:56 you don't want people getting litigious over it, like no, you don't be accused of ripping anybody off, right? You just want to be as upfront with people. With people. And I don't think I've ever actually seen somebody, at least in gaming, in tabletop games, rip somebody off like that. Just say, Oh, that's a great idea. We're stealing that it's easier to pay somebody to just say, Yes, that's a great idea. We'll buy that from you, right? As opposed to trying to do something unseemly and criminal?   Speaker 1 ** 49:24 Yeah, there's, there's something to be said for having real honor in the whole process.   Matt Forbeck ** 49:30 Yeah, I agree, and I think that especially if you're trying to have a long term career in any field that follows you, if you get a reputation for being somebody who plays dirty, nobody wants to play with you in the future, and I've always found it to be best to be as straightforward with people and honest, especially professionally, just to make sure that they trust you. Before my quadruplets were born, you could have set your clock by me as a freelancer, I never missed a deadline ever, and since then, I've probably it's a. Rare earth thing to make a deadline, because, you know, family stuff happens, and you know, there's just no controlling it. But whenever something does happen, I just call people up and say, hey, look, it's going to be another week or two. This is what's going on. And because I have a good reputation for completing the job and finishing quality work, they don't mind. They're like, Oh, okay, I know you're going to get this to me. You're not just trying to dodge me. So they're willing to wait a couple weeks if they need to, to get to get what they need. And I'm very grateful to them for that. And I'm the worst thing somebody can do is what do, what I call turtling down, which is when it's like, Oh no, I'm late. And then, you know, they cut off all communication. They don't talk to anybody. They just kind of try to disappear as much as they can. And we all, all adults, understand that things happen in your life. It's okay. We can cut you some slack every now and then, but if you just try to vanish, that's not even possible.   Speaker 1 ** 50:54 No, there's a lot to be there's a lot to be said for trust and and it's so important, I think in most anything that we do, and I have found in so many ways, that there's nothing better than really earning someone's trust, and they earning your trust. And it's something I talk about in my books, like when live with a guide dog, live like a guide dog, which is my newest book, it talks a lot about trust, because when you're working with a guide dog, you're really building a team, and each member of the team has a specific job to do, and as the leader of the team, it's my job to also learn how to communicate with the other member of the team. But the reality is, it still comes down to ultimately, trust, because I and I do believe that dogs do love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between dogs and people is that people that dogs are much more open to trust, for the most part, unless they've just been totally traumatized by something, but they're more open to trust. And there's a lesson to be learned there. No, I   Matt Forbeck ** 52:03 absolutely agree with that. I think, I think most people in general are trustworthy, but as you say, a lot of them have trauma in their past that makes it difficult for them to open themselves up to that. So that's actually a pretty wonderful way to think about things. I like that,   Speaker 1 ** 52:17 yeah, well, I think that trust is is so important. And I know when I worked in professional sales, it was all about trust. In fact, whenever I interviewed people for jobs, I always asked them what they were going to sell, and only one person ever answered me the way. I really hoped that everybody would answer when I said, So, tell me what you're going to be selling. He said, The only thing I have to really sell is myself and my word, and nothing else. It really matters. Everything else is stuff. What you have is stuff. It's me selling myself and my word, and you have to, and I would expect you to back me up. And my response was, as long as you're being trustworthy, then you're going to get my backing all the way. And he was my most successful salesperson for a lot of reasons, because he got it.   Matt Forbeck ** 53:08 Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, I mean, I've worked with people sourcing different things too, for sales, and if you can rely on somebody to, especially when things go wrong, to come through for you. And to be honest with you about, you know, there's really that's a hard thing to find. If you can't depend on your sources for what you're building, then you can't depend on anything. Everything else falls apart.   Speaker 1 ** 53:29 It does. You've got to start at the beginning. And if people can't earn your trust, and you earn theirs, there's a problem somewhere, and it's just not going to work.   Matt Forbeck ** 53:39 Yeah, I just generally think people are decent and want to help. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've had issues. Car breaks down the road in Wisconsin. Here, if somebody's car goes in the ditch, everybody stops and just hauls them out. It's what you do when the quads were born, my stepmother came up with a sign up sheet, a booklet that she actually had spiral bound, that people could sign up every three three hours to help come over and feed and bathe, diaper, whatever the kids and we had 30 to 35 volunteers coming in every week. Wow, to help us out with that was amazing, right? They just each pick slots, feeding slots, and come in and help us out. I had to take the 2am feeding, and my wife had to take the 5am feeding by ourselves. But the rest of the week we had lots and lots of help, and we were those kids became the surrogate grandchildren for, you know, 30 to 35 women and couples really, around the entire area, and it was fantastic. Probably couldn't have survived   Speaker 1 ** 54:38 without it. And the other part about it is that all those volunteers loved it, because you all appreciated each other, and it was always all about helping and assisting.   Matt Forbeck ** 54:48 No, we appreciate them greatly. But you know every most of them, like 99% of them, whatever were women, 95 women who are ready for grandchildren and didn't have them. Had grandchildren, and they weren't in the area, right? And they had that, that love they wanted to share, and they just loved the opportunity to do it. It was, I'm choking up here talking about such a great time for us in   Speaker 1 ** 55:11 that way. Now I'm assuming today, nobody has to do diaper duty with the quads, right?   Matt Forbeck ** 55:16 Not until they have their own kids. Just checking, just checking, thankfully, think we're that is long in our past,   Speaker 1 ** 55:23 is it? Is it coming fairly soon for anybody in the future?   Matt Forbeck ** 55:27 Oh, I don't know. That's really entirely up to them. We would love to have grandchildren, but you know, it all comes in its own time. They're not doing no well. I, one of my sons is married, so it's possible, right? And one of my other sons has a long term girlfriend, so that's possible, but, you know, who knows? Hopefully they're they have them when they're ready. I always say, if you have kids and you want them, that's great. If you have, if you don't have kids and you don't want them, that's great. It's when you cross the two things that,   Speaker 1 ** 55:57 yeah, trouble, yeah, that's that is, that is a problem. But you really like working with yourself. You love the entre

Confused about JAWS subscriptions, Apple upgrades, and the soaring cost of assistive tech? This episode of Double Tap dives deep into Vespero's UK pricing controversy, iPhone nostalgia, and the future of accessible devices for blind users. This episode is supported by Pneuma Solutions. Creators of accessible tools like Remote Incident Manager and Scribe. Get $20 off with code dt20 at https://pneumasolutions.com/ and enter to win a free subscription at doubletaponair.com/subscribe!Stephen Scott and Shaun Preece unpack a lively mix of emails from listeners on the latest in accessibility tech and pricing frustrations. The conversation begins with a playful debate over iPhone models, including the allure of the 13 mini versus the battery-hungry 15 Pro, and whether an upgrade to the iPhone 17 is truly worth it.The focus shifts to Vespero's JAWS licensing model, with listeners sharing candid reactions to the sharp UK price hikes, home subscription confusion, and the lack of parity with US and Canadian offerings. Strong opinions ignite around the sustainability of assistive tech pricing and the community's growing adoption of free alternatives like NVDA.Later, the hosts explore broader accessibility topics: the prohibitive cost of Braille devices such as the Monarch, the promise of remote support tools like Pneuma Solutions, the rise of Ramblio for blind social audio, and practical tips for blind language learners. Relevant LinksPneuma Solutions: https://pneumasolutions.comDouble Tap Newsletter: https://doubletaponair.com/subscribeRamblio Community: https://ramblio.com Find Double Tap online: YouTube, Double Tap Website---Follow on:YouTube: https://www.doubletaponair.com/youtubeX (formerly Twitter): https://www.doubletaponair.com/xInstagram: https://www.doubletaponair.com/instagramTikTok: https://www.doubletaponair.com/tiktokThreads: https://www.doubletaponair.com/threadsFacebook: https://www.doubletaponair.com/facebookLinkedIn: https://www.doubletaponair.com/linkedin Subscribe to the Podcast:Apple: https://www.doubletaponair.com/appleSpotify: https://www.doubletaponair.com/spotifyRSS: https://www.doubletaponair.com/podcastiHeadRadio: https://www.doubletaponair.com/iheart About Double TapHosted by the insightful duo, Steven Scott and Shaun Preece, Double Tap is a treasure trove of information for anyone who's blind or partially sighted and has a passion for tech. Steven and Shaun not only demystify tech, but they also regularly feature interviews and welcome guests from the community, fostering an interactive and engaging environment. Tune in every day of the week, and you'll discover how technology can seamlessly integrate into your life, enhancing daily tasks and experiences, even if your sight is limited. "Double Tap" is a registered trademark of Double Tap Productions Inc.

Flashnet CEO Ethan Marcus breaks down Bitcoin's on‑chain trading, fee wars, stablecoin hurdles, and why Spark aims to outpace Lightning—all in under 35 minutes. Flashnet CEO Ethan Marcus joins us to discuss Bitcoin's scaling landscape, on‑chain spot markets, the challenges of stablecoins, and how Spark's signing protocol offers a fast, cheap alternative to Lightning. He also shares candid lessons from a $300 k load test and his vision for Bitcoin‑native finance. Subscribe to the newsletter! https://newsletter.blockspacemedia.com Notes:     Coinbase charges ~70 bps per trade.     Spark handled $300 k in 9 min during beta.     Bitcoin spot volume ≈ $20‑30 trillion yr.     Lightning's fee‑free stablecoin rollout deemed “disaster”.     Spark's operator model uses threshold signatures.     Braille's USD‑BTC stablecoin launches on Spark. Timestamps: 00:00 Start 01:52 Is Flashnet crypto or fintech? 02:23 What is Spark? 03:25 Role of the Operator 05:06 Like a State Chain but different 06:50 Spark idea origins 08:54 Flashnet 11:08 Why not build on Lightning? 12:16 Hyperliquid 15:00 How does Spark fit into BTC scaling? 16:30 Why use a DEX? 18:38 Evolution of on-chain exchanges 20:35 Braille & stablecoins 21:58 RGB & other protocols 24:15 Park launch troubles 26:16 Degens lend a helping hand 28:08 Corporate chains 30:21 Single sequencer = server 32:09 Zero Day 33:08 Innovations in BTC -

Sarrah Mae Villoria Priagola is Inventor of Brailleiance. Brailleiance is a modified braille tool to make learning braille easier for the blind. Brailleiance comes with different levels of learning, properly guiding the learning of the non-sighted - from learning braille characters to actual reading of braille words and sentences. This episode is recorded live at the USeP KTTD Office, in partnership with AGILab TBI - knowledge and technology transfer division and technology business incubator of University of Southeastern Philippines in Davao City.In this episode | 00:57 Ano ang Brailleiance? | 07:43 What problem is being solved? | 12:27 What solution is being provided? | 28:55 What are stories behind the startup? | 41:05 What is the vision? | 44:27 How can listeners find more information?USEP KTTD OFFICE | Facebook: https://facebook.com/usepkttdAGILAB TBI | Facebook: https://facebook.com/usepagilabTHIS EPISODE IS CO-PRODUCED BY:YSPACES: ⁠https://knowyourspaceph.com⁠APEIRON: ⁠https://apeirongrp.com⁠TWALA: ⁠https://twala.io⁠SYMPH: ⁠https://symph.co⁠SECUNA: ⁠https://secuna.io⁠RED CIRCLE GLOBAL: ⁠https://redcircleglobal.com⁠MAROON STUDIOS: ⁠https://maroonstudios.com⁠AIMHI: ⁠https://aimhi.ai⁠CHECK OUT OUR PARTNERS:Ask Lex PH Academy: ⁠https://asklexph.com⁠ (5% discount on e-learning courses! Code: ALPHAXSUP)Argum AI: ⁠http://argum.ai⁠PIXEL by Eplayment: ⁠https://pixel.eplayment.co/auth/sign-up?r=PIXELXSUP1⁠ (Sign up using Code: PIXELXSUP1)School of Profits: ⁠https://schoolofprofits.academy⁠Founders Launchpad: ⁠https://founderslaunchpad.vc⁠Hier Business Solutions: ⁠https://hierpayroll.com⁠Agile Data Solutions (Hustle PH): ⁠https://agiledatasolutions.tech⁠Smile Checks: ⁠https://getsmilechecks.com⁠CloudCFO: ⁠https://cloudcfo.ph⁠ (Free financial assessment, process onboarding, and 6-month QuickBooks subscription! Mention: Start Up Podcast PH)Cloverly: ⁠https://cloverly.tech⁠BuddyBetes: ⁠https://buddybetes.com⁠HKB Digital Services: ⁠https://contakt-ph.com⁠ (10% discount on RFID Business Cards! Code: CONTAKTXSUP)Hyperstacks: ⁠https://hyperstacksinc.com⁠OneCFO: ⁠https://onecfoph.co⁠ (10% discount on CFO services! Code: ONECFOXSUP)UNAWA: ⁠https://unawa.asia⁠SkoolTek: ⁠https://skooltek.co⁠Better Support: ⁠https://bettersupport.io⁠ (Referral fee for anyone who can bring in new BPO clients!)Britana: ⁠https://britanaerp.com⁠Wunderbrand: ⁠https://wunderbrand.com⁠EastPoint Business Outsourcing Services: ⁠https://facebook.com/eastpointoutsourcing⁠DVCode Technologies Inc: ⁠https://dvcode.tech⁠NutriCoach: ⁠https://nutricoach.com⁠Uplift Code Camp: ⁠https://upliftcodecamp.com⁠ (5% discount on bootcamps and courses! Code: UPLIFTSTARTUPPH)START UP PODCAST PHYouTube: ⁠https://youtube.com/startuppodcastph⁠Spotify: ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/6BObuPvMfoZzdlJeb1XXVa⁠Apple Podcasts: ⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/start-up-podcast/id1576462394⁠Facebook: ⁠https://facebook.com/startuppodcastph⁠Patreon: ⁠https://patreon.com/StartUpPodcastPH⁠PIXEL: ⁠https://pixel.eplayment.co/dl/startuppodcastph⁠Website: ⁠https://phstartup.online⁠This episode is edited by the team at: ⁠https://tasharivera.com

Mona's Eyes (Europa Editions, 2025) is an enchanting debut novel written by art historian Thomas Schlesser. It tells the story of a 10-year-old girl living in Paris who briefly loses her vision. After much testing, the doctor suggests that Mona might benefit from seeing a psychiatrist, and Mona's grandfather offers to take her to her appointment each week. Instead, every Wednesday afternoon for an entire year, he takes her to visit masterpieces of art from the past five hundred years, now displayed in the great museums of Paris. Henri, Mona's grandfather, carefully explains each piece, shares the history of its creator, and emphasizes a lesson to be learned from it. He hopes that if her blindness returns, she will have internalized the colors, emotions, and beauty of 52 of the world's finest and most influential pieces of art. Thomas Schlesser is the director of the Hartung-Bergman Foundation in Antibes, France. He teaches Art History at the École Polytechnique in Paris and is the author of several works of nonfiction about art, artists, and the relationship between art and politics in the 20th century. Thomas received a PhD in History and Civilizations from the École des Hautes Études en Sciences Sociales (EHESS) and obtained the Habilitation à Diriger des Recherches (HDR), a specific academic qualification in France, authorizing him to supervise doctoral research (as professor at École Polytechnique in Paris). He is the grandson of André Schlesser, known as Dadé, a singer and cabaret performer who founded the Cabaret L'Écluse. Mona's Eyes is Thomas's second novel and his American debut. It has been translated into thirty-eight languages, including Braille. Thomas was awarded 2025's Author of the Year by Livres Hebdo. In his spare time, Thomas loves cooking and organizing aperitifs, dinners, and festive gatherings. He's also passionate about retro gaming and pop culture, and he enjoys wandering and exploring at a leisurely pace. He constantly reflects on his many flaws and tries to work on them, although it's not easy. He listens to others, and if he has one message to share, it's that life is about patching things together — rigid, overly normative, and definitive frameworks should be approached with caution. He'll add that the cause of animal welfare and the rights of people with disabilities are very dear to him. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

Mona's Eyes (Europa Editions, 2025) is an enchanting debut novel written by art historian Thomas Schlesser. It tells the story of a 10-year-old girl living in Paris who briefly loses her vision. After much testing, the doctor suggests that Mona might benefit from seeing a psychiatrist, and Mona's grandfather offers to take her to her appointment each week. Instead, every Wednesday afternoon for an entire year, he takes her to visit masterpieces of art from the past five hundred years, now displayed in the great museums of Paris. Henri, Mona's grandfather, carefully explains each piece, shares the history of its creator, and emphasizes a lesson to be learned from it. He hopes that if her blindness returns, she will have internalized the colors, emotions, and beauty of 52 of the world's finest and most influential pieces of art. Thomas Schlesser is the director of the Hartung-Bergman Foundation in Antibes, France. He teaches Art History at the École Polytechnique in Paris and is the author of several works of nonfiction about art, artists, and the relationship between art and politics in the 20th century. Thomas received a PhD in History and Civilizations from the École des Hautes Études en Sciences Sociales (EHESS) and obtained the Habilitation à Diriger des Recherches (HDR), a specific academic qualification in France, authorizing him to supervise doctoral research (as professor at École Polytechnique in Paris). He is the grandson of André Schlesser, known as Dadé, a singer and cabaret performer who founded the Cabaret L'Écluse. Mona's Eyes is Thomas's second novel and his American debut. It has been translated into thirty-eight languages, including Braille. Thomas was awarded 2025's Author of the Year by Livres Hebdo. In his spare time, Thomas loves cooking and organizing aperitifs, dinners, and festive gatherings. He's also passionate about retro gaming and pop culture, and he enjoys wandering and exploring at a leisurely pace. He constantly reflects on his many flaws and tries to work on them, although it's not easy. He listens to others, and if he has one message to share, it's that life is about patching things together — rigid, overly normative, and definitive frameworks should be approached with caution. He'll add that the cause of animal welfare and the rights of people with disabilities are very dear to him. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/literature

Explore Apple's 2025 accessibility updates, including Vision Pro Zoom, Braille Access, Magnifier for Mac, and new App Store accessibility labels. Learn how Apple is reshaping inclusive tech for low vision, blind, and deaf-blind users.This episode dives into Apple's latest accessibility announcements for 2025, featuring insights from Sarah Herrlinger, Senior Director of Accessibility at Apple.Discover how Vision Pro now supports Zooming on your surroundings, live object recognition, and third-party accessibility camera access. We explore Braille Access, a powerful tool for taking notes, opening BRF files, and even using live captioning on braille displays to support deaf-blind users. We also cover Magnifier for Mac, which leverages an iPhone or external camera for classroom and workplace independence, with perspective correction and integration with the new Accessibility Reader. Finally, learn how Apple's new App Store accessibility labels help users identify apps that truly support features like VoiceOver, Voice Control, captions, and audio description.Relevant LinksApple Accessibility: https://www.apple.com/accessibility/Be My Eyes: https://www.bemyeyes.comiOS Access for All (by Shelly Brisbin): https://www.iosaccessbook.com Find Double Tap online: YouTube, Double Tap Website---Follow on:YouTube: https://www.doubletaponair.com/youtubeX (formerly Twitter): https://www.doubletaponair.com/xInstagram: https://www.doubletaponair.com/instagramTikTok: https://www.doubletaponair.com/tiktokThreads: https://www.doubletaponair.com/threadsFacebook: https://www.doubletaponair.com/facebookLinkedIn: https://www.doubletaponair.com/linkedin Subscribe to the Podcast:Apple: https://www.doubletaponair.com/appleSpotify: https://www.doubletaponair.com/spotifyRSS: https://www.doubletaponair.com/podcastiHeadRadio: https://www.doubletaponair.com/iheart About Double TapHosted by the insightful duo, Steven Scott and Shaun Preece, Double Tap is a treasure trove of information for anyone who's blind or partially sighted and has a passion for tech. Steven and Shaun not only demystify tech, but they also regularly feature interviews and welcome guests from the community, fostering an interactive and engaging environment. Tune in every day of the week, and you'll discover how technology can seamlessly integrate into your life, enhancing daily tasks and experiences, even if your sight is limited. "Double Tap" is a registered trademark of Double Tap Productions Inc.

We're celebrating International Dot Day with the return of bestselling author and illustrator Peter H. Reynolds to the pod! In this episode, we catch up with Peter on what's been keeping him busy lately and how he's expanding the Dot movement to millions around the world.Together, we dive into Peter's work, including new stories that champion kindness and courage, and learn more about how he's continuing his mission to unlock creativity in every learner.---ABOUT OUR GUESTPeter H. Reynolds is an accomplished writer, storyteller, and illustrator who has been acclaimed around the globe for his best-selling “stories for all ages” about protecting and nurturing the creative spirit, including the three books in his “Creatrilogy” - The Dot, Ish, and Sky Color.The Dot has now been published in over twenty languages, including Braille, and has won numerous awards. Each September, a growing number of educators and students have joined International Dot Day for a global celebration of creativity in the classroom.---SUBSCRIBE TO THE SERIES: ⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠YouTube Music⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Overcast⁠⁠⁠FOLLOW US: ⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠POWERED BY CLASSLINK: ClassLink provides one-click single sign-on into web and Windows applications, and instant access to files at school and in the cloud. Accessible from any computer, tablet, or smartphone, ClassLink is ideal for 1to1 and Bring Your Own Device (BYOD) initiatives. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠classlink.com⁠⁠⁠.

As you will learn, our guest this time, Walden Hughes, is blind and has a speech issue. However, as you also will discover none of this has stopped Walden from doing what he wants and likes. I would not say Walden is driven. Instead, I would describe Walden as a man of vision who works calmly to accomplish whatever task he wishes to undertake. Walden grew up in Southern California including attending and graduating from the University of California at Irvine. Walden also received his Master's degree from UCI. Walden's professional life has been in the financial arena where he has proven quite successful. However, Walden also had other plans for his life. He has had a love of vintage radio programs since he was a child. For him, however, it wasn't enough to listen to programs. He found ways to meet hundreds of people who were involved in radio and early television. His interviews air regularly on www.yesterdayusa.net which he now directs. Walden is one of those people who works to make life better for others through the various entertainment projects he undertakes and helps manage. I hope you find Walden's life attitude stimulating and inspiring. About the Guest: With deep roots in U.S. history and a lifelong passion for nostalgic entertainment, Walden Hughes has built an impressive career as an entertainment consultant, producer, and historian of old-time radio. Since beginning his collection in 1976, he has amassed over 50,000 shows and has gone on to produce live events, conventions, and radio recreations across the country, interviewing over 200 celebrities along the way. A graduate of UC Irvine with both a BA in Economics and Political Science and an MBA in Accounting/Finance, he also spent a decade in the investment field before fully embracing his love of entertainment history. His leadership includes serving as Lions Club President, President of Radio Enthusiasts of Puget Sound, and long-time board member of SPERDVAC, earning numerous honors such as the Eagle Scout rank, Herb Ellis Award, and the Dick Beals Award. Today, he continues to preserve and celebrate the legacy of radio and entertainment through Yesterday USA and beyond. Ways to connect with Walden: SPERDVAC: https://m.facebook.com/sperdvacconvention/ Yesterday USA: https://www.facebook.com/share/16jHW7NdCZ/?mibextid=wwXIfr REPS: https://www.facebook.com/share/197TW27jRi/?mibextid=wwXIfr About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. We're going to deal with all of that today. We have a guest who I've known for a while. I didn't know I knew him as long as I did, but yeah, but we'll get to that. His name is Walden Hughes, and he is, among other things, the person who is the driving force now behind a website yesterday USA that plays 24 hours a day old radio shows. What I didn't know until he told me once is that he happened to listen to my show back on K UCI in Irvine when I was doing the Radio Hall of Fame between 1969 and 1976 but I only learned that relatively recently, and I didn't actually meet Walden until a few years ago, when we moved down to Victorville and we we started connecting more, and I started listening more to yesterday, USA. We'll talk about some of that. But as you can tell, we're talking, once again, about radio and vintage radio programs, old radio programs from the 30s, 40s and 50s, like we did a few weeks ago with Carl Amari. We're going to have some other people on. Walden is helping us get some other people onto unstoppable mindset, like, in a few weeks, we're going to introduce and talk with Zuzu. Now, who knows who Zuzu is? I know Walden knows, but I'll bet most of you don't. Here's a clue. Whenever a bell rings, an angel gets his wingsu was the little girl on. It's a Wonderful Life. The movie played by Carol from Yeah, and she the star was Carolyn Grimes, and we've met Carolyn. Well, we'll get to all that. I've talked enough. Walden, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're   Walden Hughes ** 03:19 here. Hello, Michael boy, I mean, you, you had John Roy on years ago, and now you finally got to me that's pretty amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 03:25 Well, you know, we should have done it earlier, but that's okay, but, but you know what they say, the best is always saved for last.   Walden Hughes ** 03:34 Hey. Well, you know, considering you've been amazing with this show on Friday night for the last year. So here yesterday, USA, so we you and I definitely know our ins and outs. So this should be an easy our place talk.   Michael Hingson ** 03:47 Yes. Is this the time to tell people that Walden has the record of having 42 tootsie rolls in his mouth at once?   Walden Hughes ** 03:52 That's what they say. I think we could do more, though, you know. But yeah, yeah. Well, we won't ask, miss, yeah, we won't ask you to do that here. Why not?   Michael Hingson ** 04:03 Yeah, we want you to be able to talk. Well, I'm really glad you're here. Tell us a little about the early Walden growing up and all that.   Walden Hughes ** 04:12 I'm my mom and dad are from Nebraska, so I have a lot of Midwestern Nebraska ties. They moved out here for jobs in 65 and I was born in 1966 and I was the first baby to ever survive the world Pierre syndrome, which means I was born with a cleft palate, being extremely near sighted and and a cup and a recession. So I was the first baby through my mom and dad debt by $10,000 in 17 days, and it was a struggle for my folks. You know, in those early days, without insurance, without any. Thing like that. You know, people really didn't think about medical insurance and things like that in those days, that was not an issue. So, um, so I've always had extremely loving family. Then I went through five retina detachments, and starting when I was seven years old, up to I was nine, and I finally woke up one morning seeing white half circle so the retina detached. Sometime in the middle of the night, went to the most famous eye doctor the world at times, Dr Robert macchermer, who was the one who invented the cataract surgery and everything. Later, he wound up being the head of Duke Medical that was down in Florida, and they took one last ditch effort to save my sight, but it was a 2% chance, and it didn't work out. So they went blind in November 75 and went into school for people who may or may not know California pretty aggressive in terms of education, and so when I wear hearing aids, so I parted a hard of hearing class. Newport school. Mesa took care of the kids who were hard of hearing and the blind children went up to Garden Grove. So when I walked my site, went up to Garden Grove. And so that was my dedication. I was always a driven person. So and I also had a family that supported me everything I ever did. They didn't it just they were ultimately supporting me in education, all sorts of stuff. So I wound up in the Boy Scout Program. Wound up being an Eagle Scout like you, wound up being visual honoring the OA. And this was always side of kids. I was sort of the organizer all decided kid, and there was Walden that was right, I was that way in my entire life, which is interesting that the most kids are all hanging out. We were sighted and and even the school district, which was pretty amazing to think about it, Newport, they told my mom and dad, hey, when Wong ready to come back to his home school district, we'll cover the bill. We'll do it. And so my freshman year, after my freshman year in high school, we thought, yeah, it's time to come back. And so the Newport school, Mesa picked up the tab, and so did very well. Went up, applied to seven colleges, Harvard, a Yale Stanford turned me down, but everybody else took me   Michael Hingson ** 07:53 so, but you went to the best school anyway.   Walden Hughes ** 07:57 So I mean, either like Michael Troy went to UCI and I graduated in three years and two quarters with a degree in economics, a degree in politics, a minor in management, and then I went to work as a financial planner with American Express and then a stockbroker. I always wanted to go back get my MBA. So I got my MBA at UCI, and I graduated with my MBA in accounting and finance in 1995 so that's sort of the academic part Wow of my life.   Michael Hingson ** 08:32 How did your parents handle when it was first discovered that you were blind? So that would have been in what 75 how do they handle that?   Walden Hughes ** 08:42 They handle it really well. I think my dad was wonderful. My dad was the one that took, took me my birth, to all the doctor appointments, you know, such a traumatic thing for my mom. So my dad took that responsibility. My mom just clean house. But they, they My dad always thought if I were going to make it through life, it was going to be between my ears. It could be my brain and I, I was gifted and academically in terms of my analytical abilities are really off the chart. They tested me like in 160 and that mean I could take a very complicated scenario, break it down and give you a quick answer how to solve it within seconds. And that that that paid off. So no, I think, and they they had complete and so they put in the time.   Michael Hingson ** 09:47 What kind of work did your dad do? My dad   Walden Hughes ** 09:51 wound up being a real estate agent, okay, and so that gave him flexibility time. My mom wound up working for the Irvine camp. Attorney, which is the big agriculture at that time, now, apartments and commercial real estate here in oil County and so. So with their support and with the emphasis on education, and so they helped me great. They helped my brother a great deal. So I think in my case, having two really actively involved parents paid off, you know, in terms of, they knew where to support me and they knew the one to give me my give me my head, you know, because I would a classic example of this. After I graduated from college at UCI, I was looking for work, and mom said, my mom's saying, oh, keep go to rehab. Talk to them. They're both to help you out, give it. I really wasn't interested, so I sat down and met with them and had several interviews, and they said we're not going to fund you because either A, you're gonna be so successful on your own you pay for your own stuff, or B, you'll completely fail. So when I, and that's when they flat out, told me at rehab, so I I had more more luck in the private sector finding work than I did ever in the public sector, which was interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 11:39 I know that when I was in high school, and they it's still around today, of course, they had a program called SSI through the Department of Social Security, and then that there, there was also another program aid of the potentially self supporting blind, and we applied for those. And when I went to UC Irvine, I had met, actually, in 1964 a gentleman while I was up getting my guide dog. He was getting a guide dog. His name was Howard Mackey, and when I went to college, my parents also explored me getting some services and assistance from the Department of Rehabilitation, and I was accepted, and then Howard Mackey ended up becoming my counselor. And the neat thing about it was he was extremely supportive and really helped in finding transcribers to put physics books in braille, paid for whatever the state did it at the time, readers and other things like that that I needed provided equipment. It was really cool. He was extremely supportive, which I was very grateful for. But yeah, I can understand sometimes the rehabilitation world can be a little bit wonky. Of course, you went into it some 18 to 20 years later than that. I, in a sense, started it because I started in 6869 Yeah. And I think over time, just the state got cheaper, everything got cheaper. And of course, now it's really a lot different than it used to be, and it's a lot more challenging to get services from a lot of the agencies. And of course, in our current administration, a lot of things are being cut, and nobody knows exactly what's going to happen. And that's pretty   Walden Hughes ** 13:30 scary, actually. When I went to UCI, the school picked it up the pic, the school picked up my transcribing. They picked up my readers and all that. So interesting. How?   Michael Hingson ** 13:39 But did they let you hire your own readers and so on? Or do they do that?   Walden Hughes ** 13:43 They just put out the word, and people came up and and they paid them. So they just, they were just looking for volunteer, looking for people on the campus to do all the work. And, yeah, in fact, in fact, I had one gal who read pretty much all my years. She was waiting to get a job in the museum. And the job she wanted, you basically had to die to get it open. And so she for a full time employee with the read, can I be taking 20 units a quarter? Yeah. So I was, I was cranking it out. And in those days, everybody, you were lucky they I was lucky to get the material a week or two before midterm. Yeah, so I would speed up the tape and do a couple all nighters just to get through, because I really didn't want to delay, delay by examinations. I wanted to get it, get it through. But, uh, but, you know, but also, I guess I was going four times just throughout the quarter, set them into the summer. Okay, I wanted to get it done. Yeah, so that's, that's how I   Michael Hingson ** 14:50 did it. I didn't do summer school, but I did 16 to 20 units a quarter as well, and kept readers pretty busy and was never questioned. And even though we have some pretty hefty reader bills, but it it worked, no and and I hired my own readers, we put out the word, but I hired my own readers. And now I think that's really important. If a school pays for the readers, but lets you hire the readers, that's good, because I think that people need to learn how to hire and fire and how to learn what's necessary and how to get the things that they need. And if the agency or the school does it all and they don't learn how to do it, that's a problem.   Walden Hughes ** 15:36 If fashioning is just a sidebar issue, computer really became a big part. And with my hearing loss, TSI was really, yeah, telesensory, the one Incorporated, right? And they were upscale, everybody. It was, you know, $2,500 a pop. And for my hearing, it was the was for the card, the actual card that fits into the slot that would read, oh, okay, okay, right. And eventually they went with software with me, a lot cheaper, yes, and so, so my folks paid for that in the early days, the mid 80s, the computers and the software and a lot of that were trial and error terms of there was not any customer support from the from the computer company that were making special products like that, you were pretty much left on your own to figure it out. Yeah, and so time I went to graduate in 1990 we figured, in the business world, financial planning, I'm gonna need a whole complete setup at work, and we're gonna cost me 20 grand, yeah, and of course, when we have saying, We biking it, we're gonna finance it. What happened was, and this has helped with the scouting program. I knew the vice president of the local bank. And in those days, if it was, if it was still a small bank, he just went, he gave me a personal loan, hmm, and he, I didn't have to get any code centers or anything. No, we're gonna be the first one to finance you. You get your own computer set up. And so they, they, they financed it for me, and then also Boyle kicked in for 7500 but that was, that's how I was able to swing my first really complicated $20,000 units in 1990   Michael Hingson ** 17:33 the Braille Institute had a program. I don't know whether they still do or not they, they had a program where they would pay for, I don't know whether the top was 7500 I know they paid for half the cost of technology, but that may have been the upper limit. I know I used the program to get in when we moved, when we moved to New Jersey. I was able to get one of the, at that time, $15,000 Kurzweil Reading machines that was in 1996 and Braille Institute paid for half that. So it was pretty cool. But you mentioned TSI, which is telesensory Systems, Inc, for those who who wouldn't know that telesensory was a very innovative company that developed a lot of technologies that blind and low vision people use. For example, they developed something called the optic on which was a box that had a place where you could put a finger, and then there was attached to it a camera that you could run over a printed page, and it would display in the box a vibrating image of each character as the camera scanned across the page. It wasn't a really fast reading program. I think there were a few people who could read up to 80 words a minute, but it was still originally one of the first ways that blind people had access to print.   Walden Hughes ** 18:59 And the first guinea pig for the program. Can I just walk my site in 75 and they, they wanted me to be on there. I was really the first one that the school supply the optic on and has special training, because they knew I knew what site looked like for everybody, what Mike's describing. It was dB, the electronic waves, but it'd be in regular print letters, not, not broil waters, right? What   Michael Hingson ** 19:25 you felt were actually images of the print letters, yeah.   Walden Hughes ** 19:30 And the thing got me about it, my hand tingled after a while,   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 yeah, mine   Walden Hughes ** 19:36 to last forever,   Michael Hingson ** 19:38 you know. So it was, it wasn't something that you could use for incredibly long periods of time. Again, I think a few people could. But basically, print letters are made to be seen, not felt, and so that also limited the speed. Of course, technology is a whole lot different today, and the optic on has has faded away. And as Walden said, the card that would. Used to plug into computer slots that would verbalize whatever came across the screen has now given way to software and a whole lot more that makes it a lot more usable. But still, there's a lot of advances to be made. But yeah, we we both well, and another thing that TSI did was they made probably the first real talking calculator, the view, plus, remember   Walden Hughes ** 20:25 that? Yep, I know a good sound quality.   Michael Hingson ** 20:28 Though it was good sound quality. It was $395 and it was really a four function calculator. It wasn't scientific or anything like that, but it still was the first calculator that gave us an opportunity to have something that would at least at a simple level, compete with what sighted people did. And yes, you could plug your phone so they couldn't so sighted people, if you were taking a test, couldn't hear what what the calculator was saying. But at that time, calculators weren't really allowed in the classroom anyway, so   Walden Hughes ** 21:00 my downside was, time I bought the equipment was during the DOS mode, and just like that, window came over, and that pretty much made all my equipment obsolete, yeah, fairly quickly, because I love my boil display. That was terrific for for when you learn with computers. If you're blind, you didn't really get a feel what the screen looked like everybody. And with a Braille display, which mine was half the screen underneath my keyboard, I could get a visual feel how things laid out on the computer. It was easier for me to communicate with somebody. I knew what they were talking   Michael Hingson ** 21:42 about, yeah. And of course, it's gotten so much better over time. But yeah, I remember good old MS DOS. I still love to play some of the old MS DOS games, like adventure and all that, though, and Zork and some of those fun games.   Walden Hughes ** 21:57 But my understanding dos is still there. It's just windows on top of it, basically,   Michael Hingson ** 22:02 if you open a command prompt in Windows that actually takes you to dos. So dos is still there. It is attached to the whole system. And sometimes you can go in and enter commands through dos to get things done a little bit easier than you might be able to with the normal graphic user interface, right? Well, so you, you got your master's degree in 1995 and so you then continue to work in the financial world, or what did   Walden Hughes ** 22:35 it for 10 years, but five years earlier? Well, maybe I should back it up this way. After I lost my site in 1976 I really gravitated to the radio, and my generation fell in love with talk radio, so I and we were really blessed here in the LA market with really terrific hosts at KBC, and it wasn't all the same thing over and over and beating the drum. And so listening to Ray Breen, Michael Jackson, IRA for still kill Hemingway, that was a great opportunity for somebody who was 10 years old.   Michael Hingson ** 23:18 Really, they were all different shows. And yes, I remember once we were listening to, I think it was Michael Jackson. It was on Sunday night, and we heard this guy talking about submarines, and it just attracted Karen's and my attention. And it turns out what it was was Tom Clancy talking about Hunt for Red October. Wow. And that's where we first heard about it, and then went and found the book.   Walden Hughes ** 23:45 But So I grew up in the talk radio, and then that, and I fell in love with country music at the time on koec, and then Jim Healy and sports, yep, and then, and then we were blessed in the LA market have a lot of old time radio played, and it was host like Mike was here at K UCI, John Roy, eventually over KPCC, Bob line. And so my relatives said you should listen to this marathon KPFK, which was a Pacific did an all day marathon. I fell in love with that. Jay Lacher, then one night, after I walked my site, I tuned in. Ray bream took the night off, and Bill balance had frankly sit in. And the first thing they played was Jack Armstrong, and this is where Jack, Jack and Billy get caught up in a snow storm and a bone down the hill. And Brett Morrison came in during the one o'clock two o'clock hour to talk about the shadow. And so my dad took me to, oh, I'm trying to think of the name of the record. Or if they gave away licorice, licorice at the at the record store tower, yeah, not Tower Records. Um, anyway, so we bought two eight track tapes in 1976 the shadow and Superman, and I started my long life of collecting and so. So here we up to 1990 after collecting for 15 years. Going to spill back conventional meetings. I knew Ray bream was going to have kitty Cowan at the guest. Kitty Cowan was a big band singer of the 40s who later the fifth little things mean a lot. And I figured nobody was going to act about her days on the Danny Kaye radio show. And so I called in. They realized I had the stuff. I had the radio shows, they took me off the air, and Kitty's husband, but grand off called me the next day, and we struck up a friendship. And so they were really connected in Hollywood, and so they opened so many doors for me. Mike I Katie's best friend with Nancy Lacher, SR bud with the one of the most powerful agents in town, the game show hosting, who could come up with a TV ideas, but did not know how to run a organization. So that was Chuck Paris, hmm, and Gong Show, yeah, so I wound up, they wound up giving me, hire me to find the old TV shows, the music, all that stuff around the country. And so I started to do that for the Sinatra family, everybody else. So I would, while we do the financial planning, my internet consulting thing really took off. So that wound up being more fun and trying to sell disability insurance, yeah. So one wound up doing that until the internet took over. So that would that. So my whole life would really reshape through kitty Carolyn and Ben granoff through that. So I really connected in the Hollywood industry from that point on, starting 1990 so that that really opened up, that really sure reshaped my entire life, just because of that   Michael Hingson ** 27:28 and you've done over the years, one of the other things that you started to do was to interview a lot of these people, a lot of the radio stars, The radio actors   Walden Hughes ** 27:39 and music and TV, music,   Michael Hingson ** 27:44 yeah.   Walden Hughes ** 27:45 And I think when Bill Bragg asked me to interview kitty Carol, and I did that in 2000 and Bill said, Well, could you do more? And so one of Kitty friends, but test Russell. Test was Gene Autry Girl Friday. He she ran kmpc for him. And I think everybody in the music industry owed her a favor. I mean, I had Joe Stafford to Pat Boone to everybody you could think of from the from that big band, 3040s, and 60s on the show. Let's go   Michael Hingson ** 28:24 back. Let's go back. Tell us about Bill Bragg.   Walden Hughes ** 28:29 Bill Bragg was an interesting character all by himself. Born in 1946 he was a TV camera man for CBS in Dallas. He was also a local music jockey, nothing, nothing, big, big claims of fame boys working for channel two. And then he in Dallas, he was at a press conference with LBJ, and LBJ got done speaking, and the camera crew decided that they were going to pack up and go to lunch. And Bill thought it'd be fun to mark what camera, what microphone the President used for his address, and the guys were in a rush door in the box, let's go have lunch. So Bill lost track, and that bothered him. So he started the largest communication Museum in 1979 and he collected and was donated. And so he had the biggest museum. He had a film exchanger. So in those early days of cable TVs, you know, we had a lot of TV stations specializing in programming, and there were channels, I think this was called a nostalgic channel, wanted to run old TV shows and films. They had the film, but they didn't. Have the equipment. And they got hold of Bill. He said, Okay, I'll do it for you. But what you're going to give me is games. Bill was a wheel and dealer, yeah. And Charlie said, We'll give you your own satellite channel. And I was talking to Bill friend later, John women in those days, in the 1983 when Bill got it, the value of those satellite channels was a million dollars a year, and he got it for free. And Bill would try and figure out, What in the world I'm going to do with this, and that's when he decided to start playing with old time radio, because really nobody was playing that on a national basis. You had different people playing it on a local basis, but not really on a national basis. So Bill was sort of the first one before I play old time radio. I became aware of him because of bur back, so I was trying to get the service on my cable TV company. Was unsuccessful.   Michael Hingson ** 30:58 So what he did is he broadcast through the satellite channel, and then different television stations or companies could if they chose to pick up the feed and broadcast it. Did, they broadcast it on a TV channel or   Walden Hughes ** 31:13 on radio public asset channel. Okay, so remember note day a lot of public it would have the bulletin boards with the local news of right community, and lot of them would play Bill can't   Michael Hingson ** 31:28 play Bill's channel because the only because what they were doing was showing everything on the screen, which didn't help us. But right they would show things on the screen, and they would play music or something in the background. So Bill's programs were a natural thing to play,   Walden Hughes ** 31:44 yeah, and so Bill wound up on a stout then he wound up being the audio shop Troyer for WGN, which was a nice break and so. And then Bill got it to be played in 2000 nursing homes and hospitals, and then local AMFM stations would pick us up. They were looking for overnight programming, so local throughout the country would pick it up. And so Bill, Bill was a go getter. He was a great engineer, and knew how to build things on the cheap. He was not a businessman, you know, he couldn't take it to the next level, but, but at least he was able to come up with a way to run a station, 24 hours a day. It was all the tapes were sent down to Nash, down to Tennessee, to be uploaded to play into the system. Eventually, he built a studio and everything in Dallas. And so,   Michael Hingson ** 32:38 of course, what what Weldon is saying is that that everything was on tape, whether it was cassette or reel to reel, well, reel to reel, and they would play the tapes through a tape machine, a player or recorder, and put it out on the satellite channels, which was how they had to do it. And that's how we did it at kuci, we had tape, and I would record on Sunday nights, all the shows that we were going to play on a given night on a reel of tape. We would take it in and we would play it.   Walden Hughes ** 33:13 And so that's how it's done in the 80s. Eventually built bill, built a studio, and then started to do a live show once a week. Eventually, they grew up to four days a week. And so here is about 1999 or so, and they were playing Musa from kitty cat, and did not know who she was. I would quickly, I would quickly give a couple background from AIM hang up. I didn't really they had no idea who I was yet. I didn't talk about what I would do and things like that. I was just supplying information. And eventually, after two years, they asked me to bring kitty on the show, which I did, and then I started to book guests on a regular basis for them, and then eventually, the guy who I enjoyed all time radio shows listening to Frank Percy 1976 built decided that I should be his producer, and so I wound up producing the Friday Night Live show with Frankie, and eventually we got it up and running, 2002 So Frank and I did it together for 16 years and so that so Bill built a studio in Texas, mailed it all to my House. My dad didn't have any engineering ability. So he and my bill got on the phone and built me a whole studio in six hours, and I was up and running with my own studio here in my bedroom, in 2002 and so overhead, I'm in my bedroom ever since Michael, you know, there you go.   Michael Hingson ** 34:58 Well and to tell people about. Frank Bresee Frank, probably the biggest claim to fame is that he had a program called the golden days of radio, and it was mainly something that was aired in the Armed Forces Radio and Television Service on the radio, where he would every show play excerpts of different radio programs and so on. And one of the neat things that's fascinating for Frank was that because he was doing so much with armed forces, and doing that, he had access to all of the libraries around the world that the Armed Forces Radio and Television Service had, so he could go in and oftentimes get shows and get things that no one else really had because they were only available in at least initially, in these military libraries. But he would put them on the air, and did a great job with it for many, many years. Yeah, Frank   Walden Hughes ** 35:53 was an interesting character, a pure entrepreneur. He invented a game called pass out, which was a drinking game, board game, and he for 20 years, he spent six months in Europe, six months in United States. And he was making so much money in Europe, he would rent out castles and lived in them, and he would and he would spend months at a time in Germany, which was the main headquarter of art, and just sit there in the archives and make copies of things he wanted to play on his show, yeah. And so that's how he built that. And then he he started collecting transcriptions when he would to 10 he was a radio actor, and so he had one of the largest collection, collection, and he his house, his family house was in Hancock Park, which was the, it was Beverly Hills before Beverly Hills, basically, what did he play on radio? Well, when he was, he was he was deceptive. He was the backup little beaver. When someone Tommy, writer, yeah, when, when Tommy Cook had another project, it was Frank be was a substitute. And so that was a short coin of fame. He did bit parts on other shows, but, but that's what he did as a kid. Eventually, I think Frank came from a very wealthy family. He wound up owning the first radio station when he was 19 years old on Catalina Island in 1949 and then he wound up being a record producer. He worked with Walter Winchell, created albums on without about Al Jolson worked on Eddie Cantor and Jimmy Durante and anyway, Frank, Frank had a career with game with creating board games, doing radio and having an advertising company. Frank was responsible for giving all the game shows, the prices for TV and the way he would do it, he would call an advertise, he would call a company. He said, you want your product. Beyond on this section, go to say, yes, okay, give us, give us the product, and give me 150 bucks. And so Frank would keep the cash, and he would give the project to the TV shows,   Michael Hingson ** 38:17 Dicker and Dicker of Beverly Hills. I remember that on so many shows   Walden Hughes ** 38:23 so So Frank was a wheeling dealer, and he loved radio. That was his passion project. He probably made less money doing that, but he just loved doing it, and he was just hit his second house. The family house was 8400 square feet, and so it was pretty much a storage unit for Frank hobbies, right? And we and he had 30,000 transcriptions in one time. But when he was Europe, he had a couple of floods, so he lost about 10 to 20,000 of them. Okay? Folks did not know how to keep them dry, but he had his professional studio built. And so I would book guests. I arranged for art link writer to come over, and other people, Catherine Crosby, to come over, and Frank would do the interviews. And so I was a big job for me to keep the Friday night show going and get Frankie's guess boy shows. I would have been. He died,   Michael Hingson ** 39:22 and he was a really good interviewer. Yeah, I remember especially he did an interview that we in, that you played on yesterday USA. And I was listening to it with Mel Blanc, which is, which is very fascinating. But he was a great interviewer. I think it was 1969 that he started the golden days of radio, starting 49 actually, or 49 not 69 Yeah, 49 that was directly local, on,   Walden Hughes ** 39:49 on Carolina, and K, I, G, l, which was a station I think heard out in the valley, pretty much, yeah, we could pick it up. And then, and then he started with on. Forces around 65   Michael Hingson ** 40:02 that's what I was thinking of. I thought it was 69 but,   Walden Hughes ** 40:06 and well, he was, on those days there were armed forces Europe picked them up. And also, there was also the international Armed Forces served around the far eastern network, right? Yeah. And so by 67 he was pretty much full on 400 stations throughout the whole world. And I that's probably how you guys picked him up, you know, through that capability.   Michael Hingson ** 40:30 Well, that's where I first heard of him and and the only thing for me was I like to hear whole shows, and he played excerpts so much that was a little frustrating. But he was such a neat guy, you couldn't help but love all the history that he brought to it   Walden Hughes ** 40:46 and and then he would produce live Christmas shows with with the radio. He would interview the guest he, you know, so he had access to people that nobody generally had, you know. He worked for Bob Hope, right? So he was able to get to Jack Benny and Bing Crosby and yes, people like that, Groucho Marx. So he was, he had connections that were beyond the average Old Time Radio buff. He was truly a great guy to help the hobby out, and loved radio very much.   Michael Hingson ** 41:21 Well, going back to Bill Bragg a little bit, so he had the satellite channel, and then, of course, we got the internet, which opened so many things for for Frank or Frank for, well, for everybody but for Bill. And he started the program yesterday, usa.net, on the radio through the internet,   Walden Hughes ** 41:44 which he was the first one in 1996 right? There's a great story about that. There was a company called broadcast.com I bet you remember that company, Mike. Anyway, it was founded by a guy who loved college basketball, and he was a big Hoosier fan, and he was living in Texas, and so he would generally call long distance to his buddy, and they would put up the radio. He could went to the basketball games. And eventually he decided, well, maybe I could come up and stream it on my computer, and all these equipment breaking down, eventually he came up with the idea of, well, if I had a satellite dish, I could pick up the feed and put and stream it on the computer, that way people could hear it right. And he hired bill to do that, and he offered bill a full time job installing satellites and working Bill turned them down, and the guy wound up being Mark Cuban. Yeah, and Mark Cuban gave every every employee, when he sold broadcast.com to Yahoo, a million dollar bonus. So Bill missed out on that, but, but in exchange, Mike Cuban gave him broadcast.com While USA channel for free. So Bill never had to pay in the early days, until about 2002 so when Yahoo decided to get out of the streaming business for a while, then that's when we had to find and we found life 365 eventually, and we were paying pretty good. We're paying a really good rate with like 265 Bill was used to paying free, and we were paying, I think, under $100 and I knew guys later a couple years, were paying over $500 a month. And we were, we were, but there was such a willing deal able to get those things for really dope less   Michael Hingson ** 43:45 money, yeah. Now I remember being in New Jersey and I started hearing ads for an internet radio station. This was in the very late 90s, maybe even into 2000 W, A, B, y. It was a company, a show that a station that played a lot of old songs from the 50s and 60s and so on. And it was, it was, if you tuned on to it, you could listen. And after four or five hours, things would start to repeat, and then eventually it disappeared. But I started looking around, and I don't even remember how I found it, but one day I heard about this radio station, www, dot yesterday, usa.net. Right, yep.net.com,   Walden Hughes ** 44:31 yep, and yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 44:33 I said, Well, oh, I think I actually heard an ad for it on W, A, B, y, when it was still around. Anyway, I went to it, and they were playing old radio shows, and they had a number of people who would come on and play shows. Everyone had an hour and a half show, and every two weeks you would have to send in a new show. But they. They played old radio shows, 24 hours a day and seven days a week, except they also had some live talk shows. And I remember listening one day and heard Bill Bragg talking about the fact that he was going to have his standard Friday night show with Walden Hughes, it would start at nine o'clock. I had no idea who Walden was at the time. And the problem is, nine o'clock was on the in Pacific Time, and it was, I think, Midnight in New Jersey time, as I recall the way it went anyway, it was way too late for me to be up. And so I never did hear Walden on yesterday USA, or I may have actually listened. Just stayed up to listen to one and fell asleep, but the show, the whole innovative process of playing radio all the time on the internet, was intriguing and just opened so many opportunities, I think. And of course, the internet brought all that around. And now there are any number of stations that stream all the time. And Bill Bragg passed away. What in 2016   Walden Hughes ** 46:15 2018   Michael Hingson ** 46:18 1819 2019 Yeah. And Walden now is the person who directs, operates, and is the manager of yesterday USA. And so when I go ahead,   Walden Hughes ** 46:30 it's fascinating. In the height of the station, there was 15,000 internet radio stations out there in 2000 they did a survey yesterday, USA was number three in the world, behind the BBC and CNN, which I thought was a pretty nice number to be concerned. We had no budget to promote, right? And the last time I saw the numbers been a couple years, we were number 44 in the world, which I don't think of, 15,000 radio stations. Not bad. No, not at all. You know, really not bad. But now there is more talk than there used to be, because Walden and the gasmans, who we had on years ago on this podcast, but   Michael Hingson ** 47:16 have interviewed a lot of people, and continue to interview people. And of course, so many people are passing on that. We're trying to talk to people as much as we can, as they can, and all of us now, because I've started to come a little bit and become a little bit involved in yesterday USA. And as Walden said on Friday night at 730 Pacific Time, see it's earlier, we we do a talk show. Bob Lyons, who did a lot of radio out here, and for 50 years, had a program called Don't touch that dial. And John and Larry and Walden and I get on the air and we talk about, Gosh, any number of different things. We've talked about Braille, we've talked about sometimes, everything but radio. But we talk about a lot of different things, which is, which is a lot of fun.   Walden Hughes ** 48:04 And I think it probably is, you know, in the old days, it would pretty much no entertainment, and Bill telling some stories and things like that. But with me, I always had a focus in interviews, but it's so much more fun to do radio as a co host. And that's when Patricia and I connected back in the 2007 I knew was in 2005 she's my co host. And Patricia didn't grow up with whole town radio. She became a fan after she found yesterday, USA into 2000 but she's a very articulate person, and so through the shows, what she and I did on Saturday night, the audience grab it and just we should talk about everything, and I just generate calls. I mean, when she and I were doing eight hours a night, we would average about 18 calls a night, which was pretty amazing, but we would cover the gamut, and I think a really good talk show host had to know a little bit about a lot of things. Yes, he got it. You got to be flexible. And Patricia and I compliment each other that way, that we're able to cover history and politics and music and just everything. And so when I do a show with her, you never know what direction we go with where. When I'm with John Roy, it's more radio centric. So it depends on what night a week people tune in, is what you're going to   Michael Hingson ** 49:40 get. And Walden has Patricia on now Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, but we know why she's really on there, because she likes hearing Perry Como song Patricia that starts out every show Walden plays that he's in love with Patricia. One of these days, there's still the possibility. But anyway, we. We, he, we love it when he, he has Patricia on, and it's every week. So, so it is really cool. And they do, they talk about everything under the sun, which is so fascinating. Tell us about Johnny and Helen Holmes.   Walden Hughes ** 50:15 Ah, well, it's an interesting story. I I say the second biggest old time radio station in the country, after yesterday USA. It's about half the size in terms of audience basis. Radio once more, and you can find them at Radio once more.com and they do a good job. No else with probably yesterday USA branch offers own internet radio station, and he found he would go to the east coast to the nostalgic convention, and he connected with Johnny and Helen. Holmes and Johnny and Helen are people who love to attend nostalgic convention and get autographs and things. And they became really friends. So Neil convinced them, why don't you come on? Just come on radio once more. And so after a while, they do the presentation the coffee shop. Neil convinced them to take it, take it to the air, and they started to have their own show, and I was aware of them, and I produced the spirback convention, 2017 in Las Vegas. So Johnny helm came to the convention, and Johnny wanted to say hi to me. I said, I know who you are. I think he was for by that that I knew who he was, but I invited Johnny and Helen to come on with Patricia and I one night to talk about their coffee shop presentation and their show on Radio once more. And we just bonded very quickly and easy to bond with Johnny. They really are really fabulous people. He's really a generous guy, and so over the last six, seven years, we have developed a great friendship on you, and almost have created a whole subculture by itself, playing trivia with them. Every time they come on,   Michael Hingson ** 52:17 they do a lot of trivia stuff, and Johnny produces it very well. He really does a great job. And he'll put sound bites and clips and music, and it's gotten me such a major production with Johnny and Helen. And people look forward to it. I sometimes count the interaction people hanging out in the chat room, on the phone, email, about 18 to 20 people will get and get an answer question, was it amazing that that many people will be interested in trivia like that? But and, and Johnny also collects, well, I guess in Helen collect a lot of old television shows as well. Yep. So we won't hold it against him too much, but, but he does television and, well, I like old TV shows too, you bet. Well, so you know, you are, obviously, are doing a lot of different things. You mentioned spurred vac oop. They're after you. We'll wait. We'll wait till the phone die. You mentioned, well, I'll just ask this while that's going on. You mentioned spurred back. Tell us a little bit about what spurred vac is and what they've been doing and what they bring to radio.   Walden Hughes ** 53:23 Sprint vac started in 1974 it's the largest full time radio group in the country, called the society to preserve and encourage radio drama, variety and comedy. John Roy Gasman were two of the main driving force behind the club. It reached up to a membership of 1800 people, and they've honored over 500 people who worked in the golden days of radio and to speak at their meeting, come to the special conventions. And so I attended some dinners at the Brown Derby, which was a great thrill. I started attending their conventions, and it was just, it was wonderful. So I so I really got to meet a lot of the old time radio personality and become friends with Janet Waldo and June for a and people like that. And so I eventually got on the board. I eventually became one young, somewhat retired. I wound up being the activity person to book guests, and started producing conventions. And so that became a major part of my life, just producing those things for spur back and in other places, and I first started to do that for reps. Was it the Old Time Radio Group in Seattle in 2007 so they were actually the first convention I produced.   Michael Hingson ** 54:54 And rep says radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound,   Walden Hughes ** 54:57 right? Reps online.org, G and so I would produce new convention. I was helping super vac, and I also helping the Friends of all time radio back in New Jersey and so. And it probably helped my contact, which is 300 pages long, so, and I would book it. I would also contact celebrities via the mail, and my batting average was 20% which I thought were pretty good. I got Margaret. I got Margaret Truman. She called me, said, Walden, I got your order, and I forgot that I did the show with Jimmy Stewart. I'd be happy to come on talk about my memory. You know, she talked about Fred Allen on the big show, and how, how Mike Wallace had a temper, had a temper. She was a co host. Was among weekdays, which with the weekday version of monitor. Monitor was weekend and weekday, we see NBC. And so she was just fabulous, you know, so and I would get people like that 20% bad average, which was incredible. So I met, that's how it's up to two, my guess was, so I, I was sort of go to guy, find celebrities and booking them and and so in that help yesterday, USA helped the different conventions. And so it and so you're so you're booking the panels, and then you're coming up with ideas for radio recreations. And so I produce 37 of them, ranging from one day to four days. And I get counted, over the last 18 years, I've produced 226 audio theater plays with it. A lot at least, have an idea of how those things   Michael Hingson ** 56:55 work. So right now, speaking of recreations, and we're both involved in radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound, and for the last couple of years, I've participated in this. Walden has done radio recreations, and twice a year up in the Washington State area, where we bring in both some some amateurs and some professionals like Carolyn Grimes Zuzu and so many others who come in and we actually recreate old radio shows, both before a live audience, and we broadcast them on yesterday USA and other people like Margaret O'Brien who won   Walden Hughes ** 57:46 Gigi Powell coming this year. Phil Proctor. David Osmond from fire sign theater. Chuck Dougherty from Sergeant Preston. John Provo from Timmy from Lassie, Bill Johnson, who does a one man show on Bob Hope. Bill Ratner from GI Joe. Bill Owen, the who might have had he is the author of The Big broadcast, Ivan Troy who Bobby Benson, Tommy cook from the life O'Reilly Gigi parole, a movie actress of the 50s, as you mentioned, Carolyn grime, Beverly Washburn and others, and it's just the radio folks are really down to earth, really nice people, and you get to break bread with them, talk to them and reminisce about what was it like doing that radio show, this movie, or that TV show, and then They still got it, and they can perform on stage,   Michael Hingson ** 58:43 and they love to talk about it, and they love to interact with people who treat them as people. And so yeah, it is a lot of fun to be able to do it. In fact, I was on Carolyn Grimes podcast, which will be coming out at some point in the next little while, and Carolyn is going to be on unstoppable mindset. So keep an eye out for that. Bill Owens program is coming out soon. Bill and I did a conversation for unstoppable mindset, and we're going to be doing Bill Johnson will be coming on, and other people will be coming on. Walden has been very helpful at finding some of these folks who are willing to come on and talk about what they did, and to help us celebrate this medium that is just as much a part of history as anything in America and is just as worth listening to as it ever was. There is more to life than television, no matter what they think.   Walden Hughes ** 59:40 And also, we do a Christmas thing too. And hopefully Mike, if his speaking engagement allow him, will be with us up at Christmas saying, Well, I will. I'm planning on it. We're gonna do, It's a Wonderful Life. Keith Scott, coming over from Australia, who's a he's the rich little of Australia. And we'll do, It's a Wonderful Life. We'll do. The Christmas Carol, milk on 34th Street film again, Molly Jack Benny will have a great time.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:07 These are all going to be recreations using the the original scripts from the shows, and that's what makes them fun. And for those of us who don't read print, we do have our scripts in Braille, absolutely so that's kind of fun. Well, Walden, this has been absolutely wonderful. We're going to have to do it some more. Maybe we need to get you, John and Larry all together on that. That might be kind of fun. But I really, I don't think we need a host if you that. No, no, we just, you know, just go on. But this has been really fun. I really enjoy it. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Walden Hughes ** 1:00:45 Oh, I think they can call my studio number 714-545-2071, I'm in California, or they can email me at Walden shoes at yesterday, usa.com, W, A, l, D, E, N, H, U, C, H, E, S at, y, E, S T, E, R, D, A, y, u, s a.com, I'm the president of radio enthusiast sound, that's reps online.org or on the board of Sper back, which is S, P, E, R, D, V, A, c.com, so while waiting shakes me down, when   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:25 will the showcase actually occur up in Bellevue in Washington?   Walden Hughes ** 1:01:30 That will be September 18, 19 20/21, and then our Christmas one is will be Friday, December five, and Saturday, December the sixth. And then we're also going back and spir back, and I bet we'll see you there. We're going to go back to the Troy Blossom Festival next April, 23 to 26 and we'll know, are we set up to do that now? Yep, looks like that gonna happen? Yeah? Oh, good, yeah. So kick out the phone with Nicholas here a few days ago. So everything's gonna go for that, so that will be good.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:03 Yeah, we will do that. That's cool. Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. I hope you had fun. This is a little different than a lot of the episodes that we've done, but it's, I think, important and enlightening to hear about this medium into to meet people from it. So thank you for listening wherever you are. We hope that you'll give us a five star review of unstoppable mindset wherever you're listening or watching. Please do that. We'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and you can also go to our podcast page if you don't find podcasts any other way. Michael hingson.com/podcast, that's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, singular. So thanks again for being here and for listening to the show, and Walden, once again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been great.   Walden Hughes ** 1:03:01 Thank you, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:07 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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