Pandora's Box: Lifting the Lid on Menstruation

The fight for menstrual equality has been building for decades, but thanks to the rise in social media and activism the movement gained rapid momentum in 2015: “The Year of the Period”. In this episode, we meet with model and activist Kenny Jones, the first transgender male model to front a campaign around period shame, Kiran Gandhi who ran the London marathon free bleeding, and Sarika Gupta, whose social initiative looks to eradicate period stigma in India. Thankfully, these voices are few among the many that are gaining momentum and moving us forward.

Produced in partnership with Diva International (Makers of the DivaCup) and Media One Creative.

Aine 0:00 This podcast has been produced in partnership with Diva International (makers of the DivaCup) and Media One Creative. This is Pandora's Box: a podcast that is on a mission to uncover how periods affect the lives of those that experience them around the globe. Join us as we travel the world to find real stories by real women and people who menstruate, who are championing change and bringing light to the global impact of menstruation. I'm Aine,  Cait 0:27 and I'm Cait, your hosts.Cait 0:32 Today, we're talking about the future of menstrual products. From using nothing, to rags, pads, tampons, and menstrual cups, the innovation of period products has made it easier and more hygienic for people to be on their periods. I have used tampons, and panty liners, and I didn't really love them. And I was introduced to menstrual cups, but that was when my period started getting super light. So I really liked the menstrual cup, it was so easy, but it just didn't make sense for me at that point in time. So I've been using period panties, which I love because I don't really have to do much, just wash them like normal underwear. And they're great for a super light flow and I don't really have to think about them at all.Aine 1:17 I remember starting out when I was first got my period, like tampons were kind of like a risqué item that nobody really used, I guess. And I remembered there was all this talk at school and you remember learning about periods and everyone would say, "Oh, tampons give you toxic shock syndrome." But then out of necessity, I started using tampons at some point. But I discovered, through this journey actually, the menstrual cup. And it really is a life-changing product. You never really need to think about your period. Conversations around periods have always felt like a dirty little secret. Nobody talks about it. It's just something that happens every month.Cait 1:52 To understand further, we brought in Elissa Stein, who's a menstrual cultural historian, to talk about the struggles women have had with products in the past.Elissa Stein  2:01 I spoke to some people in the Midwest in their 80s. And they said they still remember boiling parties. Every Monday in their town, they have a big iron pot and they bring all their dirty rags and just wash them and the men would leave for the day. And that's how the women in their community took care of things. But it's hard to even find folklore about that because it really is so secretive. You know, the thing about menstruation is that it is always been a shameful, dirty secret. People didn't write about it; people didn't talk about it. And until products came onto the market in the early 1920s, late 1910s, there was nothing about it out there at all. Another thing to keep in mind is traditional underwear wasn't a thing until the 20th century. So there's no way you can even put a pad. And it was when that came into being that sort of changed options for women as well. But women just didn't wear underwear. So mostly the stuff sort of went on to the back of whatever layers you were wearing. And then women would wash things out in cold water in a tub.Aine 2:59 Although products have advanced since the 80s, in the modern day, we still struggle with our period products. There are chemicals and pads and tampons which can lead to toxic shock syndrome. Plus, the amount of waste that comes with having a period is simply unsustainable.Elissa Stein  3:16 I think that for a lot of women, as we are taking more ownership of the process and of our bodies and as the conversation is growing, are looking for alternatives from these heavily-packaged, expensive products that fill landfills, that are not biodegradable, that contain bleach, which isn't healthy for our bodies. So something like a menstrual cup is a really smart option for women who just want to take a different path.Cait 3:42 Carinne Chambers, the CEO and Founder of Diva International, is a champion for menstrual cups. But menstrual cups weren't invented recently. Carinne talks us through their winding history and why cups didn't catch on as soon as they were invented.Carinne Chambers-Saini  3:57 So the history of menstrual cups is really interesting. There have been versions of menstrual cups kind of noted in history, probably for 1000s of years. I mean, this is not a new problem or a new condition that we have to deal with. Women have used sponges and different kinds of collection-type devices for a long time. But the first cup that was commercialized was in the 1930s. And it was patented by a woman in the U.S. named Leona Chalmers and she patented the very first. And they were very industrial, definitely rubber, like a harder rubber type device. And there was probably a good five, six versions that were marketed from the 1930s to the 1970s. There was one in the 1950s called the 'Tassaway', there was the 'Tassette', but one of them was actually a cup, but you disposed of it. And that one actually had gained some popularity at the time and was actually commercialized. And I think what happened is just that whole age of the 50s, where everything had to be proper and clean. And that was like cleaning products, you had to bleach and destroy everything. And it was just women weren't really using as many internal products. Still, pads were the primary products. So I don't think they really ever took off. And it really wasn't until we started doing the DivaCup, and really hitting it hard and trying to create this education and bring it mainstream. And that's one of the things. I think being a pioneer in this category was so difficult and so challenging. There wasn't really anything on the market that had really made it into mainstream. And without being mainstream, without being on the shelf, it would not have been accepted if we could have sold it forever online as a kind of niche product. But the category would not be where it is, without the work that we did in building the distribution. That key point is really I think what snowballed and created this and disrupted this whole industry and created this category. It was there all along. It's just no one had really had any success in mainstreaming the concept.Aine 6:45 Hiding our periods feeds into the menstrual stigma that has existed for centuries, in combination with the vague language around menstrual cups. It created a confusing message for what people are putting into their bodies.Cait 6:57 Today, the menstrual cup has changed lives. People are seeing real benefits to alternatives in the market and realizing that some products aren't as healthy as they appear.Carinne Chambers-Saini  7:05 It was funny because I think when we first started working with one of our agencies, they sent us this document and it said, you know, "We're not claiming that the DivaCup changes lives." And I was like, "That is changing. We have to take that out." I was so upset because the DivaCup changes lives. It really does. And that's not marketing speak, or I'm trying to say that. That is from years and years of what our customers are saying, what they're telling. In my own experience, it changed my life. It really did. Carinne Chambers-Saini  7:39 When we found out about the original cups, and the materials, and they were actually made out of this natural gum rubber. Those products have nitrosamines, which is type of protein that creates allergic reactions, commonly known as latex. And you can develop an allergy with exposed and continued exposure to it. So it's not really ideal material used. So it took a lot of research. Like I honestly didn't know anything when we started. We just loved the concept. And we knew it needed to be modernized. But I had just graduated and I was like, "We need to make the best product that we can make." And through trial and error and doing our research, we figured out that silicone really is, it's the safest material. It's been used for over 50 years, and in lots of medical applications, especially when you use a high-grade medical silicone. We didn't want to put any coloring or pigments or dyes because those molecules are not always permanently bound to the silicone molecules and they can leak out of the material into the body. So our goal was really to create the safest, most natural product. Really, silicone comes from sand. It comes from the earth. And it's not a chemical, like it is a chemical, but it's not a man-made chemical. We felt that it was the best as far as compatibility to the body. Just talking about menstruation helps to normalize the subject and just making it part of our daily lives. We can't improve people's period experience if the topic is surrounded by so much embarrassment and silence and shame. It's just time. You know, it's we need to have these conversations.Aine 9:35 We're lucky that in the West we have access to healthier alternative products. But that's not the case in other parts of the world. In the global south, for example, many people don't have access to basic menstrual necessities and must resort to creating harmful makeshift products. These alternatives make them more susceptible to disease and infection.Cait 9:54 We chatted with Sarika Gupta, founder and facilitator of Safe N' Happy Periods to talk about how the lack of access to affordable menstrual products is impacting rural areas of India.Sarika Gupta  10:06 You will be really shocked in India, in rural areas, as you would have heard as well they're not really aware of what to use how to use and most of them don't have access to sanitary pads because they're not affordable to them. So they end up using 'rags', not in as in rags, but something like, they would take out cotton from their old pillow and use it for a while. So these kind of habits give rise to diseases like pelvic inflammatory disease, which is a very rampant disease in rural areas. And once you have diseases like these, it becomes very difficult to either conceive or to give birth to a child. So infertility is one very common issue arising out of not keeping menstrual hygiene or using the right product at the right time.Aine 10:57 We also spoke to Sabrina Rubli from Femme International about some of the alternatives people are using in East Africa. Sabrina Rubli  11:07 Some of the alternative methods that we've heard about from girls in both Kenya and in Tanzania are rags which, I mean, women have been doing that for centuries: taking rag, folding it in their underwear, toilet paper, cutting up old clothes, especially the woolen school sweaters that they all have, cutting out foam from their mattresses. But if you think about it, it's like a sponge, and so when you sit on it, the liquid comes out. So when girls actually use that, they say that the when they're in school, they don't sit down during the day. They just stay standing in the back of the classroom to avoid any sort of leaking or anything like that. Other methods that we've come across are trying to wash disposable pads that have already been used, cutting disposable pads in half and just using half at a time, and then more sort of severe methods such as newspaper. We've heard of grass leaves, mud, even. Leaves are not absorbent, mud, not super absorbent either. And if you're using the mattress stuffing, of course it's not going to work very well either. And so it doesn't help girls feel comfortable or confident during the week where they've already sort of been taught that they should feel embarrassed and then there's also the very real health concerns. Those methods are typically very unhygienic when they're using the rags, they're not drying them properly, often because they don't want to hang anything with blood outside. And so they'll put them under their mattresses and dry them and then use them again the next day, but they're still damp and with reusable menstrual products, it's really important that they dry in the sun to kill that bacteria. But that's not always happening because they are afraid to hang them outside, and so it leads to some really serious health concerns, infections, really high rates of UTI, yeast infections, rashes, and different symptoms that can be completely avoided if they have a safe tool to use during their period.Cait 13:06 The fact that people were using the stuffing in their mattress or old clothing even leaves and dirt is really shocking to learn because it's obvious that if you are using mattress stuffing or old clothing as a solution to your period, then you're not given the choices that you deserve for menstrual products. Because it's really harmful to your health to use these alternatives, but it's really the only option in these cases.Aine 13:35 You do what you've got to do because otherwise, you're just going to have to bleed through your clothes and nobody wants to do that. I've been in a situation where I've been caught without product and not even in any way comparing my situation to the situation of some of the people that we met throughout this process. But I did what I had to do in those situations. And that is exactly what the people that we met are doing. They're just doing what they can to get by and some of those alternatives are really unhealthy and some of them are really unhygenic and it's sad that they have to go to that measure in order to just feel like they can be in society and that they can go about their day and do what they need to do. Cait 14:08 In episode two, we talked about government's influence in period poverty. But what are they doing about health issues? Can you promise to provide all school girls with access to menstrual products? But Esther, the women's representative in Kenya, points out that corruption creates several barriers to doing so.Esther Passaris  14:28 Well the thing is, I think it's the way government procures. And corruption really is a major problem in our country. So when we have a big major contract, like sanitary towels: 500 million, and then a billion in a year in the next financial year, you want this to go to a specific person. It's not open tender. You know, for me, if you really wanted to deal with poverty all around, the women groups in India, you've got women groups that are given cottage industries that produce sanitaryware, okay, and we should learn from them. So you create these women groups that are producing sanitaryware, and you get them to supply them to the various schools. And you have an inspector going around to make sure that this group of women, producing this many sanitaries are supplying this many schools. So what happens is that 500 million comes back and goes and takes care of the entire community. So mothers are involved in purchasing sanitary towels for their children and getting educated on it, in distributing it. So for me, the idea that one person probably related to somebody very senior in government, is the one to get this contract. He has no capacity, and he's probably importing it. So you've got massive amounts of money going to one family or two families, instead of going to the community. And when you take it to the community, it's the impact. It's not just empowerment in terms of economics. It's also knowledge for these mothers who now get involved.Aine 15:56 In East Africa, people that menstruate are often coming up with their own solutions, sometimes taking matters into their own hands.Cait 16:03 In 2010, Sophia Grinvalds and her husband started AFRIPads in a rural town in Uganda. AFRIPads is a company that specializes in local manufacturing and global supply of reusable sanitary pads.Sophia Grinvalds  16:15 My husband and I were volunteering in this rural village, and the village had no electricity, no running water. And it was pretty remote for us to even get out there, we would take a taxi from the capital down to the town, then from the town, we'd get on a motorbike taxi, and that motorbike taxi would take us, you know, the 20 kilometers or so out to the village. And so it was pretty remote, there was nowhere to really buy things except from a really small trading center.Sophia Grinvalds  16:22 And so when we came to realize that girls were skipping school, and we, you know, realize that cloth pads could actually be a solution, we started that very day. So the first pad we created was made from the blanket that was on our bed. I will never forget it. It was a black fleece blanket. And we basically just cut a strip off the bottom, traced the shape of a pad inspired by Lunapads, and stitched it up right then and there. There were some women working in the community development project. And they were making uniforms for the school students. And so we brought them the cut pieces of the pad. And we just asked them, you know, "Would you mind stitching this together?" Sophia Grinvalds  17:18 And so we asked a woman who was actually menstruating to take that product home and to try it. And the following Thursday, we sat back down with the woman and that woman shared her experience. And for us, that was the moment we realized that we had made something from local materials. We had produced it on the spot in a village in the middle of nowhere without electricity. And we had instant interest from a group of women and an affirmation when that woman came back that the product had helped her manage her period much more comfortably. Sophia Grinvalds  17:51 One morning, I wasn't there. But it was very early in the morning. And the young Ugandan girl who was working with us was sweeping the front step and a schoolgirl came up in uniform and asked if we had any pads for sale. And Hamidah called us and said, "You know, this girl wants to buy some of our pads. How much, and how many should I give her?" And so we gave her a set of three and sent her off to school. And she came back about a week later with a bunch of friends. And they appeared on the doorstep the same thing: in the morning on the way to school. And they were in the middle of their primary learning exams, which is the end of their primary school. And you have to pass these exams in order to proceed to secondary school. And these girls had come because they realized from the first girls' experience that this might be a way to help them stay in school during that week for those few weeks of exams. Sophia Grinvalds  18:36 And that moment for us was a really affirming one, because it made us realize that we could make something in the village that could provide a really practical solution for these girls. So when we started, we started AFRIPads in this village outside of a town in southwestern Uganda, pretty close to the border of Tanzania. And we started there out of out of chance because it's where we were volunteering. But slowly, as we started to grow, we were committed to creating jobs for local women. And so we felt that that was a way of empowering the community where we were working. And so, as we started and our team started to grow, we realized that it was going to be core to our mission. We wanted to prove that you could create meaningful employment for women, that you could pull them into the formal sector and that you can make a world-class product. Even in a village with no electricity.Aine 19:27 Hundreds of women are employed by AFRIPads, giving them the opportunity to earn an income where they otherwise wouldn't be able to. We interviewed Irene, an inspiring lady who also happens to be one of AFRIPads' very first employees.Irene Nakayima  19:42 I've worked with AFRIPads since 2010. My role has changed over the past two years from being a quality checker of five employees, to a supervisor of around 50 temporaries, and now to general production manager of 105 employees. I'm so proud about the impacts AFRIPads has made to my life as a person, because at the time I joined AFRIPads, I was not working. I'm so proud about the empowerment it gives to me and the employees because most of the staff they employ did not go to school. I contribute taxes to the government, which is pay-as-you-earn, I'm saving for myself, I and my husband, our life, I've saved so much, plus the life of our children, because they are in good schools, we can afford paying their school fees, we have electricity now our home, we are able to build the house. And all of that happened, because after working with AFRIPads, before we were renting, so now we have a house with electricity with running water, we're able to save and buy a car, my children are going to very good schools. So it's AFRIPads that is helping me save and be able to help my family. So I'm so happy. And every time I wake up to come to work, I feel so proud about the impact AFRIPads is making on me, and other people in the community, and employees in general. So AFRIPads has changed the lives of people, as a community, not only employees. Before we did not have electricity. And we got electricity in 2016, that was AFRIPads struggling and fighting and doing all their best to make sure we get electricity. Yeah, women working contributes to the development of the economy of any area. Because I said all our benefits we get from here, we pay taxes. If we're not working with the government, we even have had a chance of us paying taxes. That is already a good one to the economy of the country, because we have portions that we are paying as employees, as women working, we are helping the economy reduce poverty, because we are working and we are earning a living.Cait 22:09 As AFRIPads began to grow, Sophia needed electricity to power their electric sewing machines. Although it seems like a simple task bringing electricity to her company, there wasn't any electricity in the town at all. Sophia petitioned the government to bring electricity to the town and therefore company, and they got it.Sophia Grinvalds  22:30 The girls who work with us earn an income and that income then goes home and empowers them, which is their families. They spend their money locally, they send their kids to the local schools, they buy their produce in the local village trading centers, they commission a local carpenter to make them a bed. So what you start to see is this trickle-down of you know, economic development that starts happening. And that all starts with just each incremental employee that joins the company adds to that trickle-down effect and electricity has come to the village and that's something that has been transformative. Development can only go so far when you don't have basic things like electricity. And so you start to see a rise in the number of shops, diversification of industry that's happening. And so the village is really transforming. So for us deciding to put our factory in this village, it's truly a mission-driven choice.Cait 23:21 AFRIPads is an incredible company that's run by very strong women. They are making a huge change not only in the lives of their employees, but in their community as well. I think it's absolutely incredible that they brought electricity to their town, it was part of solving their own problem of not having electric sewing machines. But it solved a ton of problems in their town as well. People didn't have cold water until they got electricity because they didn't have refrigeration systems. So it was really cool because it could, it created an opportunity for women to sell cold water. They were growing their economy by doing something as simple but also as difficult as bringing electricity to the town.Aine 24:10 I think the future of menstrual products is completely reusable. When I first heard about the DivaCup a few years back, people were very skeptical about it. It was new and people didn't know what to think. But now I see the younger generation: everybody's using reusables. People are a lot more aware of the environment and what they can do to impact climate change. So the future is reusables. I think the attitudes towards it are changing. People are not just going to just accept what has gone before. People are really going to push for change. And I think five years down the line, we will look back and think, "I can't believe we use tampons and pads, and I can't believe we put that much waste in the landfills." I honestly think it's going to be something we look back and say, "I can't believe we did that." In this episode, we've talked about the importance of menstrual products and our health and why it's vital for people to have access to clean and safe menstrual products. We also learned that giving people access to products can increase their wellbeing both physically and mentally.Cait 25:08 In our next episode, we're discussing the lingering stigma around periods. Why is it still a taboo? And where did it all begin? Also, a big thanks to our podcasting team for producing this. This episode was edited by Brittany Nguyen, Alison Osborne and Stephanie Andrews.Aine 25:33 Pandora's Box is also an award-winning feature-length documentary. To find out where to watch the film, you can visit pandorasboxthefilm.com 

Aine 0:00 This podcast has been produced in partnership with Diva International (makers of the DivaCup) and Media One Creative. This is Pandora's Box: a podcast that is on a mission to uncover how periods affect the lives of those that experience them around the globe. Join us as we travel the world to find real stories by real women and people who menstruate who are championing change and bringing light to the global impact of menstruation. I'm Aine, Cait 0:27 and I'm Cait your hosts.Aine 0:33 People who menstruate around the world that are lacking access to products. In the UK alone, one in 10 people struggle to afford menstrual supplies. Cait, how much do you think you're spending on period products?Cait 0:43 I think I used to spend $20 a month on menstrual products because I always got the kind of fancy comfortable tampons, I think. But since I've been on birth control, an IUD, I don't get my periods very often. So I got those period panties. And I find them to be fantastic. And they were expensive to begin with, but it's a great reusable option. I don't have to spend money anymore.Aine 1:12 I feel the same about the DivaCup. I was thinking about that the other day, I was walking by the tampon aisle and I just thought, "I haven't bought tampons or pads in a year." But it's just the liberation of never having to think about anything. I get my period and I'm like, okay, here's the thing that I use, and it's just there. There's something really, really liberating about that and I just think it's a revolutionary product.Cait 1:35 I can definitely say that when I was a student and walking into the drugstore, I was like, "Oh, I have to spend money on this. I guess I'll take that out of my budget." But it was something I could always afford.Aine 1:48 Whenever I was a student, or whenever I was just started working and was not earning a lot of money, it definitely felt like a big strain on my finances to have to buy menstrual products. So I can't even imagine what it's like to be in a position where you have to choose to buy medical products or to buy food or to buy clothes. Really, over the course of this process in this journey, so many times I've put myself in the shoes of people not being able to afford menstrual products, and I can't imagine how vulnerable that must make them feel not being able to deal with something that you can't stop. It's flowing, it's coming and not being able to control that, that must be so awful. They can't participate. They don't want to go out into society. That must just be a really awful feeling.Cait 2:33 I would think it would be pretty frustrating, too. Because when you think about it, there's toilet paper for free and public washrooms because nobody can control needing to go to the washroom. Like, that's a normal thing you can't stop. It's the exact same thing with periods. It's not like, "Oh, this month, I'm just going to not have it, I'm going to make that choice." So why aren't they giving out free products for periods as well? It would be really frustrating to be like, I don't have money for this. And this is something I have to deal with, but this guy doesn't have to worry about it.Aine 3:08 So that's interesting that you bring that up, because in lot of the studies that we did and a lot of looking into how periods are perceived, a lot of comments have been made by men, that, "Why can't you just hold it in?" Because they think that we can control the flow and that we choose to turn it on, and it's just like a top. I think we watched a video when we doing research and some guy was like, "Girls are just disgusting. Like, can they not hold it in? I don't pee myself. And they're just like, getting blood all over themselves." Like this is an actual thought that people have about periods because they just don't understand the anatomy. And they think that we're just choosing to bleed whenever we feel like it's so pretty shocking.Cait 3:45 To learn more, we sat down with Dawn Butler in London. Dawn is a government champion for those who can't afford period products.Dawn Butler 3:54 Hi, my name is Dawn Butler. I'm the Member of Parliament for Brent Central. I am the opposition spokesperson. So for the Labour Party, I'm the Shadow Secretary of State for Women and Equalities. I used to be a minister under the last Labour Government and I was the first elected black female minister in the UK. Period poverty is almost like phenomenon that's all of a sudden come to light over the last 10 years. It's quite shocking, you know, the sixth richest country in the world, and we've got children, young menstruators who can't go to school because they're on their periods. We've got menstruators who are going to work and using socks instead of towels or cups. And it's quite a shocking thing, because at first you think, "That can't be happening here in the UK." But we've found it's happening more and more often, as people haven't got enough food to eat. They're having to make the decisions on whether to eat, whether to heat their homes, or whether to get menstrual products. It happens everywhere: it happens in the cities, it happens in rural areas, I mean food banks now have started to provide products for people who are menstruating because there was such a need for it.Aine 5:21 After speaking to Dawn, it was really refreshing to hear that there are people focused on fighting period poverty. The more you hear about this issue, the more shocking and frustrating it becomes because you hear about people in impossible situations where they're forced to sit home and just bleed because they cannot get access to the products that they need. We shouldn't have to suffer in silence or just miss out on participating in society because of something that is a bodily function that is just not prioritized at a government level.Cait 5:50 Being born with the ability to menstruate, it shouldn't mean that you don't get to participate and when I've talked to people here in Toronto about how this happens in the Western world, they're totally convinced that it doesn't happen here. But it absolutely is a problem here. There is period poverty and it surprised me how adamant people can be about their idea that it's not a Western world problem at all. After hearing about how period poverty is affecting individuals around the world, we wanted to hear stories from those who have suffered through this crisis. We visited Rachel Krengel to learn more about her story and how she created an organization called Fourth Wave.Rachel Krengel  6:33 And then, what came out of that was that of six lower-middle-class or working-class women, two of us had a personal experience of menstrual poverty that we've never mentioned before. And bear in mind, we're a feminist collective. We talk about our vaginas constantly, but we never ever have shared these stories. There are so many people who are living in really abject poverty but are just managing to hide it because they're juggling, you know, this week we won't buy any food, this week we were buying the menstrual pads, this week we won't turn the heating on. Between it all, we're just about holding together an appearance that we're surviving and not a lot goes on.Aine 7:19 It was at that point that a news article came out reporting that children from Rachel's hometown were regularly missing schools during their periods because they couldn't afford menstrual products.Cait 7:28 Rachel's vision for Fourth Wave is inspiring. Her organization is determined to make a change. It reminded us about something Dawn said on the topic.Dawn Butler 7:37 It shouldn't be the case that you have to worry about something that happens naturally to you that you can't stop. And governments and organizations and societies should ensure that that isn't the case, and that's wherever you go to work, school, university, or prison.Aine 7:58 Dawn isn't the only political figure who believes that menstrual products should be a right, not an expense. We spoke to Danielle Rowley, a Labour Member of Parliament for Midlothian in Scotland, to hear her story.Danielle Rowley  8:09 I'm Danielle Rowley, Labour Member of Parliament for Midlothian in Scotland. Came into parliament and I had a question about period poverty and I happened to be on my period so I decided to sort of contextualize the cost of, you know, periods that a lot of women face by saying that I'm on my period and talking about how much it had cost me. I had no idea of when I said in parliament I was on my period that it was the first time anyone had said that before. And I've discovered it's not only in the UK, but I don't think anyone has said in any parliament that they're on their period before. It's not being talked about enough, you know, so I think a lot of people might not come out and say, "I don't want to discuss that." But they're not making sure it's high up on the agenda. And that's just, you know, shown by the fact that I was the first person who said I was on my period in parliament. If we had debates on it like we should do, because it's such a huge issue, then someone would have said that before. So it's not getting the prominence that it deserves.Cait 9:12 Dawn was actually in parliament with MP Danielle Rowley when she stood up and spoke about her period.Dawn Butler 9:18 MP Danielle, she stood up. She ran in, actually, sort of out of breath for a debate and said, "I'm really sorry. I'm on my period." And there were a few gasps, I think, in the chamber. And remember, it's a chamber that's not used to women in the first place. And I felt like putting my hand up and saying, "I'm on my period too." And I found it quite an empowering moment and it's a situation where we should be able to just talk about it without feeling dehumanized, without being ridiculed.  Aine 9:50 Change isn't only happening in the UK. In the U.S., changemakers such as Jennifer Weiss-Wolf are fiercely combating period poverty.Jennifer Weiss-Wolf  9:57 So if the people making the rules aren't people who've experienced menstruation, there's a really good chance they're not even wondering if it's a problem or not. So the combination of the silence, of the shame, of the stigma, with the fact that we do not have a government here in the United States, and I venture to say in most places in the world, where women's needs and women's bodies and women's experiences are elevated and acknowledged, and the laws that we live by viewed through that perspective, you sort of have your perfect storm of menstruation just not being part of the systems that we talk about. And as I'm sure lots of folks have said, that you've talked to, if you don't talk about it, you certainly can't start solving the problem.Cait 10:46 Jennifer brings up an interesting perspective on the need for diverse voices amongst policymakers is the reason that period poverty isn't prominent in government conversations simply because there's a lack of menstrual representation.Aine 10:59 I find this really frustrating, because to me, it seems so obvious that is an issue that should be taken into account, and also that these are products that shouldn't be taxed. So it just seems so obvious to me. But that's because I experienced menstruation. So if there's no representation of people that menstruate in governments, then that has got to be the reason why these policies are being ignored and not given priority at all.Cait 11:29 It's impossible to understand what the policies need to be if you can't understand the experience of menstruation. I find it very frustrating that I don't have somebody to advocate for me with the full knowledge of what it's like to have your period and what the costs associated are and what the barriers are involved in menstruating.Aine 11:51 I think this is an example of gender inequality contributing to further gender inequality. So the fact that there's less women in government is due to gender inequality, and now that's contributing to further gender inequality, because women and people who menstruate are not being given the priority that they deserve in order to get these issues solved. I think the tampon tax is such a clear example of this. If you had somebody who menstruates sitting in the room when they decided that this was a luxury item, they would have said, actually, wait a second. There's nothing luxurious about having a period. It's just something that happens. To help us answer this question, we asked Elissa Stein, a menstrual historian, and familiar voice from episode one.Elissa Stein  12:34 So women only got the right to vote not even 100 years ago, and because of the mindset of hysteria, and emotional imbalance, and women were just intrinsically more frail, because of their uterus and because of menstruation, so many people in the world thought that, you know, in the United States in England, women didn't have the right to vote, because they were not stable enough. And there was a huge political discourse in the United States about whether women should have the right to vote. And for a couple of years, politicians, leaders in the country were coming out making public statements about whether they thought that women should be able to vote or not. So the whole fight about suffragettes wasn't just about the right to vote, it was whether women were strong enough or emotionally capable of voting. So that to why women couldn't have a job outside the home, why a woman couldn't own property, why a woman became her husband's possession when they got married, it's all based on her not being capable of making decisions on your own because she menstruated and that rendered her too emotionally insecure. To function as her own person, she needed to have a man to take care of her and make decisions. In our current political environment, where women are being demonized in many ways, where gender and sexuality are at the top of the list of reasons for hate crimes. This brings menstruation back into a conversation in a different way. What sets men and women apart menstruation. So it's an easy target. It's an easy way for people to belittle, to judge, to tell women that they're not competent.Cait 14:14 Dawn also had an important point on this topic.Dawn Butler 14:18 It's about respecting women and respecting people who menstruate. Because too often, our legislation and policies are all geared towards dehumanizing and devaluing women, and the role that women play in society. And I think this is part of it. This is part of us owning it and saying, "This is what happens. This happens to me and this is what we need to do to make it easier for me to go about my daily business." And so I think we take it from a perspective of empowering. This is an empowering conversation. And it means that, you know, it adds dignity and pride to everybody else that's going through it. Aine 14:58 So if these are the issues the Western world is facing, what's happening in the global south?Cait 15:03 65% of women and girls cannot afford menstrual products in Kenya. A pack of 10 sanitary pads costs just over $1, which is roughly the daily wage of an unskilled laborer. Kenya was actually the first country to promise free menstrual products in school.Aine 15:20 While we were in Kenya, we talked to Esther Passaris, the women's representative for Nairobi, to learn about the country's stance on period products.Esther Passaris  15:28 The discussion on the importance of having sanitary towels given to our girls, and how not having it impacted their education, it didn't give them an equal opportunity, started because you had more women in parliament. And then the women were also able to lobby the men because the men understand that their daughters go through this. So the men, I guess, rather than stand in Parliament and oppose it, which would be an embarrassing situation to even discuss it, it was an easy sale. But the thing is, making the budget, you know, allocating budget for women issues, is always a challenge. So it took a while before the president accepted into law, the provision of sanitary towels, and it's still going to take a while before we can actually implement it.Cait 16:19 Despite what people may think, Kenya is progressive in regards to menstrual policy. Sabrina Rubli, who's the founder of Femme International had an interesting take.Sabrina Rubli  16:28 It's just gonna take time. It's one of those issues that even though it's extremely widespread, and so many people have to manage their periods every month, it's going to take time for that to actually turn into concrete changes at the community level and at the very local level where these girls need it the most. But with the growth of Menstrual Hygiene Day, over the last five years, governments are getting involved. The Kenyan government especially has been super progressive. Tanzania's government is also starting that conversation at the higher levels, which is really exciting. And organizations like Femme are going to be here to make sure that they follow up on their promises and maintain that commitment to girls' education. Aine 17:08 It's exciting to hear that shifts are starting to happen. People are taking action against period poverty.Cait 17:14 It's incredibly motivating to see changes being made in the political space, I think it's really important for governments to support people who menstruate. And I think that there's a lot that we can do as citizens to also contribute to this change. I think that reaching out to your representative and really highlighting the issues around period poverty is incredibly important. I think it goes under the radar because nobody talks about them. So it's really difficult as well for your government to address these issues if nobody is talking about them.Aine 17:48 As frustrating as it is that this is still such a huge issue, it is reassuring to see there are so many people who are making noise right now. There are so many changemakers and influencers who are really yelling from the rooftops that this is something that governments need to take notice of this is something that people need to get their heads out of the sand and start dealing with. There are so many people starting public conversations about this, that I feel like it's going to spur on the movement.Cait 18:18 One thing that we learned when we were in Kenya was that a lot of people from the Western world are making reusable pads and then sending them to countries in East Africa. But there are amazing groups in East Africa that are helping women to set up businesses where they make reusable pads and then sell them for a really affordable price to people in their community. And they were saying, "Please don't send us reusable pads. That doesn't help us as much as if you were to send us the materials that you need to make reusable pads." So that specific material that absorbs is really hard to come by, it's much more helpful to send this particular type of material called poly urethane laminate, which they use for the reusable pads as the moisture barrier. Because this allows women to actually sew their own reusable pads and sell them in their community which allows them to get an income and then they can spend that money in their community. And that really grows their community's economic wellbeing. After hearing about Kenya's move on free menstrual products, we were curious if this was a global phenomenon amongst governments. After all, Canada, the U.S. and Scotland have been providing free menstrual products.Aine 19:41 To start off, we talked to Dawn Butler in the UK. Dawn Butler 19:45 What we said as the Labour Party is that once we're in government, we would provide free products in schools, colleges, and homeless shelters. And it's to ensure that anyone who's menstruating have access to products without feeling ashamed without having to miss school and without having to miss work. And so we found the money. And we're dedicated to ensuring that there's products in schools, colleges, universities and homeless shelters. And we're committed to do that on day one of us entering office in government. So the Labor Party at the moment and one of my Shadow Ministers, Carolyn Harris, she's going around giving out these products in prisons, to women who on the street, just to make sure that's one less thing that they have to worry about.Aine 20:39 After speaking to Dawn, we wanted to see what's happening in North America. So in September of 2019, the Toronto District School Board announced they were going to provide free menstrual products for all girls and students that menstruate. This is huge. I mean, this just means that it's eradicating period poverty within schools, which is a lot of the time where girls and students that menstruate are impacted the most because it's affecting their education and their ability to participate.Cait 21:06 So Kenya was actually the first country to get rid of the sales tax on menstrual products. And that happened in 2004. Since then, Australia, Canada, Colombia, India, Ireland, Slovakia, and a few other countries have cut down the taxes on menstrual products.Aine 21:27 So we have this fun little segment of the documentary where we show all of the items that are exempt from sales tax. So there's cowboy boots, Twizzlers, Bibles, Cait 21:39 Fruit Roll-ups,Aine 21:40 gun club memberships, Cait 21:42 Pop Tarts, Aine 21:44 golf club memberships, Cait 21:46 Viagra, Aine 21:46 Rogaine. They're not seen as luxury items, but tampons are. We actually had this very interesting discussion. We were at the Women's March in New York, and we met these guys who were actually protesting the Women's March. And we talked to them about this. And we said, "What do you think about the fact that Viagra is not taxed? Rogaine is not taxed?" And one of the guys said, "Well, that's not men's fault." And we said, "Okay, so periods are a woman's fault." And they were like, "Yeah. Yeah, they are." So that was pretty eye-opening. Next, we spoke with Elissa Stein, to see what the U.S. is doing to combat period poverty.Elissa Stein  22:26 In the past nine years since it came out, the conversation has exploded. In New York City, girls now have access to menstrual products at school, free of charge. This is a necessity of life for women. And it's taxed in so many places, it's being repealed. That's amazing that the conversation is going from beyond the United States to all these different countries where women don't have access to products don't even have conversations about what menstruation is. That people are taking the time and thoughtfulness to educate is profound.Cait 23:03 Hearing from Dawn and Elissa made us think about Kiran Gandhi's story about free bleeding in the London Marathon during our first episode. We were curious to hear her thoughts on the tampon tax.Madame Gandhi  23:14 I think that we live in a world that profits off of women's bodies and bodies in general, taxing something like a tampon as a luxury item in the same way. Viagra, which is actually a luxury item gets taxed is not an equal parallel. And one of the most problematic things that we do in this society is that in order for us to understand women's bodies, men and the society constantly feel the need to identify the male parallel. And so when I ran, I remember so many times people will be like, "Well, that's like a man doing number two when he's running." Or like, "Oh, that's like a man having an ejaculation when he's running." And I'm like, "Actually, it's unlike either of those things, because women have the parallel of those two exact things." And it's okay that there's no parallel of menstruation to men. You don't have to masculinize our bodies in order to understand them. In fact, I think we're a little bit more intelligent than that. And so with this tampon tax, because people parallel it to something that's a false parallel, it gets taxed incorrectly. And it is certainly a necessity. It's a public health necessity. Aine 24:21 It's inspiring to hear the passion that these individuals have to change the way we interact with period products.Cait 24:27 Because a lot of people really want to understand comparable products for men that are like tampons. But somebody made a really interesting point who we talked to, and they said, "Why do you need a comparable product? Not everything is all about men. Women can just have something that's a women's thing, and you don't need to defend it by coming up with a comparison with men."Aine 24:51 I'm going to guess that the tampon tax exists because when it was introduced there, most likely were no people who menstruate around the table. And I would say something that is defined as a luxury is something that we don't need, something that we want. But we need these products. They're not luxury, they're necessity. Definitely representation in governments by all genders is so important because this is just one thing that's being missed and overlooked of course there are other things that only women experience that are not getting enough priority because they're misrepresented in governments.Cait 25:32 To get to the bottom of the issue, when we sat down with Rachel Krengel, we asked her why she thinks premium tampon taxes exist.Rachel Krengel  25:39 The tampon tax is an interesting and complicated issue and a lot of misinformation exists on it. What it really is, it's an issue of political representation because the UK government was given X amount of time to decide what products were going to be tax free when they entered the EU, and at that point, there were very few menstruators in parliament. So who was going to say, "Actually we probably should put menstrual pads and tampons as tax free." Nobody, because the vast majority of people in parliament weren't menstruators and that still remains that there are still considerably less menstruators than non-menstruators in all levels of political representation. It's getting better, but it's getting better slowly.Aine 26:21 In this episode we tackle the period poverty crisis and explored why it is a global issue. We learned why it's happening and what's been done to take action. We talked to multiple women in parliament pushing to make change.Cait 26:33 Period poverty has remained invisible for a long time, but now it's finally beginning to receive the light it deserves.Aine 26:40 Tune into our next episode where you learn about the new products and innovations being created within the menstruation space.Cait 26:47 Also a big thanks to her podcasting team for producing this. This episode was edited by Brittany Nguyen, Alison Osborne and Stephanie Andrews.Aine 27:04 Since recording this podcast, huge progress has been made in the UK. Menstrual products are now available for free in all schools and in 2021, the UK government eradicated the tampon tax. Pandora's Box is also an award-winning feature-length documentary. To find out where to watch the film, you can visit pandorasboxthefilm.com 

Aine 0:00 This podcast has been produced in partnership with Diva International (makers of the DivaCup) and Media One Creative. This is Pandora's Box, a podcast that is on a mission to uncover how periods affect the lives of those that experience them around the globe. Join us as we travel the world to find real stories by real women and people who menstruate who are championing change and bringing light to the global impact of menstruation. I'm Aine  Cait 0:27 and I'm Cait, your hosts. Aine 0:32 This episode is going to be a little bit different than the others. You won't be hearing much from Cait or myself. We're going to be passing the mic Topeka K. Sam, Executive Director of Ladies of Hope Ministries (LOHM). We first met Topeka back in 2019 when we were filming the documentary. She became a very central character in the film. We were just blown away by her story and by the work she does with the LOHM.  Aine 0:56 Some of the most shocking stories we heard when making this documentary were from incarcerated or formerly incarcerated women and people who menstruate. It was very harrowing to hear stories of how these marginalized communities and people are further marginalized and punished just because they have a period. Topeka K. Sam  1:18 As a formerly incarcerated woman, I know firsthand the experiences of having menstruation while incarcerated. I remember the first day I received my period. I'm not talking about when I was in prison, but when I was eight years old, I remember being in school and I just started bleeding. And sorry if I'm being a little graphic, but this is what we go through as women. I remember crying and going to the nurse saying that something was going on with me. They called my mom. And my mom was like, "Oh, well, Topeka. This is what it is." And she started to explain to me how she was seven when she got hers.  Topeka K. Sam  1:54 And I remember receiving this huge piece of cloth that reminded me of a little mini boat that you put in your bathtub, it was so big for my little body. And I got my first purse, because my mother had me put these little pads in this purse and told me that I had to carry them with me to school. And every month I was able to carry a purse while I had these. Topeka K. Sam  2:16 I talk about that particular experience and how it correlates to when I was incarcerated and needing pads. Unfortunately, the pads weren't the size of a boat. They were really thin. They were not what we needed. But what we ended up doing a lot of times, because they weren't giving them out to us, was we had to pay for them. Pads were being used as kind of bartering systems a lot of times with the guards, male guards very often. It allowed me to really, really think through what was happening in this country, how our dignity was being stripped, and how menstrual products and the inequities around those who actually receive them was happening in this country. And there were no conversations that were going on around what happens to women who are imprisoned with periods.  Topeka K. Sam  3:02 I was raised with three brothers, a two-parent home. My parents were together for 58 years prior to my father passing last year. They were franchise business owners. We were the only black family in our neighborhood. I would say I grew up very privileged. We had the best of educations. I laugh and say my father wanted us to be a string quartet because I was trained in piano and flute, one of my brothers in violin, another one in cello, another in percussion. I was captain of every team. I was president of every club. That lets you see what my ambition was. And just the need to succeed, partly because I had parents who did. My mother says I just had that kind of spirit in me of fearlessness and the ability to just do and change the world. But when you have such strong presence, the way you show up in the world actually will determine sometimes what happens in your life.  Topeka K. Sam  3:50 And so I decided that I wanted to go to an HBCU, historically black college, because I wanted to be around other kids of color. So I chose Morgan State University in Baltimore, Maryland. I chose that because a really close friend of the family who I called my aunt Maddie went to Morgan State and told me how great it was. And it wasn't too far from home. And this was my first time away from home. Being there, I was super excited because now I'm in a community with people that were just like me, then also there was fear. The fear was that I was away from home, but I didn't know about anything in life. And so I started to try to find my way. I end up dating guys who were selling drugs, eventually selling drugs myself.  Topeka K. Sam  4:29 One point I had just completely stopped that particular lifestyle. I get a call and I ended up, "Okay, you know what, this is the call that I've been waiting for. I can connect some people together real quick, make some money, open this other business and then that's it. I'm out. One last run."  Or so I thought. So now, I'm in Virginia at a meeting and something just didn't feel right. But what I do know is being arrested and I found myself in a jail, a county jail, in Hanover, Virginia.  Topeka K. Sam  4:57 Before I went in, I was going through uterine issues, and so really heavy cycles. My doctor said I had what was called uterine fibroids. And so I knew going in that I was diagnosed, I was planning to get the surgery that year in 2012. I assumed that because I was still having these heavy cycles while I was incarcerated, I will see if I can get that surgery. And so I applied to do that through the court. I went and got the surgery, or so I thought, and I came back and the cramps were worse, the cycle was heavier. And I said, “Something isn't right.” This did not feel as if anything was actually done. I made a joke earlier, but the seriousness is they were giving us the cheapest sanitary products that they could, and a very, very small amount of them, and as I mentioned with uterine fibroids, often we have very heavy and long cycles. And with that, sometimes I will go through a pack of pads a day. That's how bad it was for me. Aine 5:51 Sadly, so many incarcerated women and people who menstruate have stories about how challenging it was for them to deal with menstruation during their time spent in prison. Topeka introduced us to two formerly incarcerated women named Cass Severe and Naquasia Pollard. Both women now work with Topeka at LOHM, and wanted to share their firsthand experience of menstruating in prison. Cass Severe 6:20  I do recall a horrific experience where one particular day, lots of days, rather, my pad was so, like, saturated with blood that I one point I remember it sliding down my pant leg, you know, and it hit the floor. And it was so embarrassing on top of traumatizing but, you know, that's all I had to work with. That's what I basically got used to at times: just rewrap that same used sanitary napkin over and over again until I was able to obtain something clean. So on top of that, this was affecting my health. Naquasia Pollard  6:58 I remember a time that I was on a visit and I saw it all the way through my clothes. I went to go change and come back to my visit, and the correctional officer said that I was not allowed to do that. Either I sit on the visit and soil my pants or I terminate my visit. I terminated my visit because I didn't want to sit there and soil my clothes. That just doesn't make any sense. It was heartbreaking. Aine7:26 The lack of access to products is not only traumatizing for those who experience it, it brings up some serious health concerns as well. And particularly if somebody is dealing with a health issue that makes their period more difficult or more painful every month to begin with. Topeka K. Sam  7:48 They would give us a pack of pads a month, which sometimes was 12 pads. So you expected to keep a sole pad on for hours in a day, sometimes a day. And then you would have to purchase pads through commissary, and they were costing the same amount of money as you would if you went into the Duane Reade or Walgreens. And so I get to federal prison after being sentenced. And I still had the same issues. And I remember going to the doctor and they told me no, there was nothing wrong. They see that I had the surgery. And I'm like, I know something is wrong with me, we know our bodies. But there they ration the pads out very differently. And so though I was fortunate enough to have the highest paying job, whatever that looks like, $100 a month in prison, I was able to get support from home, I was still only allowed to buy a pack of pads every commissary and so I had to request through medical to get pads prescribed to me because the pads were so very thin and cheap. And I thought it was ridiculous that we actually had to pay for them. Topeka K. Sam  8:46  I remember getting to another prison and I saw a doctor from outside and she touched my stomach and she was like, "Your fibroids are huge." And I just broke down and cried. Because I was like, “Wow. It's the first time there's a doctor who's actually acknowledging the things that I already knew was wrong with me.” This one particular prison, I was told that in order for me to get that documentation and get prescribed pads from the doctor, that I had to quantify my period. And what that meant is I needed to take the used pads and put them in a brown paper bag and show them to the male officer who was often such on duty, I would open the bag so he would see the pads, see that I used the pads so that he can ration out five more pads.  Topeka K. Sam  9:27 The feeling of pain and the feeling of disgust and humiliation that I felt having to go through that still with just the courage to speak up. I knew that there were so many other sisters that didn't have the resources to get what they needed. They didn't have the strength to fight. I knew that I needed to do something about it. And when I came home, started organizing and speaking to other formerly incarcerated women, they were saying the same things. How can something that is part of our makeup, our humanity - why would we have to quantify cycles, have to purchase menstrual products in a system that's already deemed and already built to be inhumane? Aine10:17 I think inhumane is the perfect word to use when describing the experiences that these women had to endure. The shame, trauma, and abuse of basic human rights is just shocking. The stories don't stop there. Menstruation is part of the issue. But the bigger problem is how reproductive health in general is handled in prisons. Topeka K. Sam  10:44 When I think about prison, and I think about these systems, and I think about all the shame and pain that comes to it, it also allows me to think about all the resilience and the fight. Naquasia Pollard  10:55  So I was 19 years old when I got arrested, and I had my daughter while I was incarcerated. After I had her, I was transported to the Bedford Hills Correctional Facility. I say transported because I went against my will. I wanted more than anything to be with my daughter. I was only 21 years old, and I was told that I had fibroids, I didn't know what it was, what it meant to have fibroids, what were the side effects, etc. When I learned from a gynecologist that was a man while I was incarcerated at Bedford Hills Correctional Facility, he suggested that I get a hysterectomy. They did not want to give me the adequate sanitary napkins, hygiene products to accommodate my heavy menstrual. I went back and forth with the health administration for several years, over five, seven years debating on should I remove my womb. And I was only 21 years old, which was a problem for me. So my other alternative was to either suffer through the pain and wait until I was released or get a hysterectomy. I said no to the hysterectomy and I suffered my whole incarceration with my menstrual. I was soiled through my clothes. It was dehumanizing as a woman. And majority of the women that I had to engage with regarding my menstrual were not sensitive to my needs and were not willing to provide me with the adequate service in order for me to not suffer. As women, they allowed me to suffer. And that's what our criminal justice system does to women that may have abnormal body functions and they still don't have any sympathy for a woman that suffering in the institution. [They] just rather you not be able to reproduce no matter what color you are, because you're just seen as what they call an inmate, and they feel that you don't have any morals or standards. So why should you care to have a child? Cass Severe12:58 I come from being from incarcerated and having my menstrual in prison is a very sickening truth. Just to deal with my menstrual health as a female prisoner gaining access to menstrual products was exceedingly difficult. I didn't have reliable access to pads and tampons. My menstruation was, as I described it, to be a harrowing, shame-inducing experience. As I recall, [we would] place orders weekly in advance. And with that, a lot of mistakes would arise along the way, which we know being formerly incarcerated, you have to expect the unexpectable. So that was fairly common, that you didn't get your products as expeditiously as you needed it. On top of that most women, including myself in prison, were poor, and we didn't have access to money. Some of us didn't have access to money outside of prison. So ordering products became a financial hardship at times, even tampons or pads being marked up prices. So they would inflate the cost and make it even more hard to obtain. Sometimes I remember it being as much as $5 to $6 at a time.  Cass Severe14:20 We couldn't afford it. So we would have to kind of barter, you know. And if you were unliked, so if you didn't have people that, you know, had your back, you were basically out of luck. And that was hard in itself. There were times where even the commissary process was very difficult just trying to get your products in on time. There was a host of different events that made this experience very disturbing for me even down to, like, you know, size, and now it's not. All women come in different shapes and forms. And you know, just having the fact that I might be a heavier bleeder than the next young lady, but they don't really care about those things. Individualism doesn't matter. So it's basically one size fits all. But in contrary, that's not the case. So you just have to make do with what you have.  Cass Severe15:09 I remember telling [the guard] one day, like, I don't have any more menstrual pads left, you know, and I literally could feel me bleeding through my clothes. And he said condescendingly, sarcastically, like, "Hah, go ahead, you know, bleed right through your clothes, I don't care." When I did bleed through my clothes, ultimately, you know, just having the guard make fun of me during that time, and it just, I just realized that I wasn't the only one that went through that, you know. I witnessed my peers, it happened to them. And I just realized that this is the real problem. They just treated us women poorly, collectively. It's not just the lack of supplies for us women, it was just the lack of empathy. And I remember thinking like, “Wow, if only these guards could be trained on how to be humane and have some empathy.” And, if they knew how to treat us properly, like individuals, it could go a longer way.  Cass Severe16:09 Well, it would be remiss for me if I didn't mention that, because of that experience with the pads, I never wore pads again. It didn't dawn on me, like, why did you stop wearing menstrual pads? It was because of prison. Because of that experience of being laughed at. I just got sick, sick of pads. So I had to use tampons, because it just kind of retriggers me from that day. And I remember being in solitary confinement. And that was even worse. And I remember spending about 21 days in confinement and you know, in confinement, you're only given maybe a shower, a week, no water and all that. And I smelled so bad, because I had my menstrual cycle during my time in solitary confinement. And I just remember one night, I had to sleep with my arms over my head because I smelled so, my own stench was so repulsive, that I was trying to figure out how can I sleep to even just manage to be able to get through the night? Stuff like that, because it's impossible, it's nearly impossible to keep clean in prison, you know, and that gave me bouts of depression, feelings of self-loathing, and a lot of isolation because of that, and I didn't want to engage with the rest of the population because I literally felt sick. When my menstrual came around, I would literally feel sick, and I would isolate myself until the seven days was over. And that's how I coped. Aine17:37 After Topeka had this experience when incarcerated, she knew she had to do something. So when she was released from prison, she put the wheels in motion to start Ladies of Hope Ministries. Topeka K. Sam 17:52 We began to work with Senator Booker and Senator Warren, at first on the federal level to draft what was called the Dignity for Incarcerated Women bill. And what that did was start a national conversation around making sure that women had personal hygiene products, free of charge to them at no cost, and making sure that women were no longer shackled during child labor, and making sure that women had the opportunity to be within a certain proximity to each other. And in that work, as I started going around the country, women in each state were feeling the same way. And I began to work with the #cut50 national organization, which is now called Dream Court Justice, to elevate and bring awareness to the issues that women were facing called Dignity for Incarcerated Women. Topeka K. Sam  18:39 I was the director of that campaign and I had the great privilege of working with women from all over the country. We've passed over 12 pieces of legislation statewide, making sure that women have personal hygiene products at no cost to them. And making sure that women are no longer shackled during child labor. We were able to get those provisions put into the Dignity Legislation on a federal level. And so it was the lived experience of not only myself, but also those sisters that were also incarcerated, that helped me to think through ways that we could lead change in this country. Anyone can make a mistake that can land them to a situation such as prison. And while you're there, you would not want to be treated worse.  Topeka K. Sam  19:26 When you think about the prison system and those who are in and, you know, the lack of access to bail or unable to pay bail. And the 'why' people are consistently in and out based on cyclical violations of parole, how people are ripped from their children and in the middle of a global pandemic, you know, our sisters are suffering. And even when there's been legislation that has been passed, we saw it in Florida, where there was legislation to Dignity Bills passed and still they shackled a woman during child labor. And where recently they just awarded a woman $200,000 as compensation for being shackled, as if that was enough.  Topeka K. Sam  20:07  But trust that, you know, that we all have these dark stories, and these dramatic stories and the things that they bring up, but it's these stories that are going to help people to understand what is happening in this country right now.  Topeka K. Sam  20:25 And so the mission of the Ladies of Hope Ministries is to end poverty and incarceration of women and girls. And we look at doing that through two buckets of work: direct services and sustainability, and policy and advocacy. And what we know is that a person cannot speak up for themselves, they cannot think about changing policy, they cannot even think about saying no to an abuser, if their basic human rights are not met for us, which are: safe housing, healthy food, and employment or career development.  Topeka K. Sam  21:01 And so we created Hope House, the safe housing space for women and girls. Our Angel Food Project taps on addressing food insecurity when we partner with Instacart. And through them Wegmans, Fairway Markets, Costco, Whole Foods and other supermarkets, where we pass out fresh bags of donations of food every single day. We also have our Pathways 4 Equity, which is a partnership with Virgin Unite, where we're looking to make sure that women have an opportunity to transform their lives through access to sustainable employment.  Topeka K. Sam  21:33 And then our policy and advocacy work, as I stated, working with Dream Corps to make sure that we pass legislation around the conditions of confinement. But we also worked on parole and probation reform around parole, probation accountability project, making sure that people know what their rights are while they're under supervision. So that not only they are held accountable, but also the systems that actually surveil them are also held accountable, helping people get early termination of sentences, get off probation and parole early, and help them to begin to move forward with their lives.  Topeka K. Sam  22:05 You know, what I do know, right now, doing this work and talking about menstrual health equity, is that reproductive health and health equity in our communities is something that's not there. And so we have exciting programs that are also partnering up with different companies and organizations around legislation that we've already passed, and how are we making sure that we're getting opportunities like training women on how to be birth doulas and death doulas while they're incarcerated for the sisters that are actually there.  Topeka K. Sam  22:40 And also, every time we do a new program or project, we're looking at ways to create equity and equitable opportunities. And so how do we set up a woman so she can create her own business, and be able to use that? That's why we have our Faces of Women in Prison Project. We've trained women in how they use their voice to tell their stories, but also get paid as public speakers. Because it is incredibly important that people understand that their stories are valuable. It's incredibly important that people understand that as they share these experiences, that they are the experts in the space. And as experts, they should be compensated as such. And so it's been an incredible journey in order to do this work from my release from prison in 2015. And it's these factors from my direct lived experience that has allowed me to continue to move forward. Aine 23:32 I want to sincerely thank Topeka, Naquasia, and Cass for sharing their stories. I can't imagine how tough it is to relive those experiences. And I so admire that they're doing so to bring light to this issue, so that others won't have to go through what they've been through. Thank you for tuning into this special episode of Pandora's Box.

Cait and Aine travel to the Mathare slum in Nairobi and speak to girls struggling to get a proper education because of the barriers they face with menstruation. We also look at period poverty and its effect on individuals in the Western world. Thousands of students in the UK lack the resources to manage basic menstrual hygiene and as a result are denied equal learning opportunities. We're facing an important yet often ignored health crisis. Pandora's Box is also an award winning feature length documentary. To find out where the film is currently available to watch, visit Pandorasboxthefilm.com. Produced in partnership with Diva International (Makers of the DivaCup) and Media One Creative. 

Where did this oppression start and why does it still continue today? We dive deeper into the history of female hysteria and the age-old notion: that a woman's uterus makes her crazy. Pandora's Box is also an award winning feature length documentary. Please go to Pandorasboxthefilm.com to find out where you can watch the film. Produced in partnership with Diva International (Makers of the DivaCup and Media One Creative)