Two Friends Talking About Things

Nate and Jason are back in Portland, which means we no longer have excuses not to record new episodes! 😅 How do people make choices? What mental models, frameworks, and other factors go into making those choices. And more importantly, _where the hell do those mental models come from_? In this episode, Nate and Jason talk about how they built their own decision-making frameworks by borrowing ideas from business, doing concentrated exercises to help them identify what they’re especially good at, and doing the meta-work to decide what they really care about in the first place. Discussed in this podcast: - Yak Shaving/Meta-Work: https://lengstorf.com/yak-shaving - Eben Pagan: https://ebenpagantraining.com/ - Refocus: https://getrefocus.com/

When the shit hits the fan and your back’s against the wall and you’ve run out of other dramatic cliches, what habits, mindsets, and material things do you need to have in your life to continue on your path and be successful? That’s what this episode is all about. Although we go on our normal huge philosophical rants, this episode of 2FTAT is extremely tactical. We talk about: - how much money is enough, and how much debt is acceptable - investing in yourself by building skills and networking - defining your own version of a “successful life” - getting rid of unnecessary things (both physical and mental) - and a lot more Referenced in this podcast: - Ramit Sethi's blog, I Will Teach You To Be Rich — http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/ - Total Money Makeover, by Dave Ramsey — http://amzn.to/2eKg2g0 - The Minimalists — http://www.theminimalists.com/ - Freedom — http://bit.ly/2eT2ug2 - Phil Caravaggio — https://twitter.com/philcaravaggio - Marisa Morby — https://marisamorby.com/blog/ - Meetup.com — https://www.meetup.com/

According to Derek Sivers, you should be optimizing your life for one thing — but that one thing is a different thing for each person. In this conversation, Nate and Jason discuss what they’re currently optimizing for, what they’ve optimized for in the past, and how those decisions have evolved over time. Additional topics (tangents?) include: - giving yourself the freedom to continue - avoiding mediocrity - the unexpected side benefits of optimizing our lives

How do the ways we describe ourselves influence our behavior? In this conversation, Nate and Jason discuss the effects of changing our minds, how the labels we choose for ourselves can hijack our behavior, and whether or not a five-year plan can work. Referenced in this podcast: Nate's (young and naïve article about) 4 foods he'll never eat again: https://nategreen.org/4-foods-ill-almost-never-eat-again/ Jason's article about the stages of learning: https://lengstorf.com/learning-trap/ This quote from Bruce Lee: > "Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick." This quote from Steve Jobs: > “I have looked in the mirror every morning and asked myself: "If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?" And whenever the answer has been "No" for too many days in a row, I know I need to change something.”

Tony is just about ready to close his business and start working at Starbucks. After ten years in the fitness industry, he feels like he’s lost the spark, and he’s not sure what he should do next — he just knows that what he’s doing right now isn’t making him happy. In this conversation, Nate Green and Jason Lengstorf talk with Tony about what we can do to find direction without having to burn it all down and start over. How can you tell if it’s time to make a major change? If something feels wrong, what would make it feel right? We cover all this, and in the end come up with a surprising experiment for Tony that just might set him back on the track to happiness. NOTE: The audio on this call is a little janky, with some background noise and lag, since everyone was calling in from different corners of the world. If you can forgive the quality of the recording, we hope the quality of the content makes up for it. 0:40 — “I’m just at an interesting point … I’m at a standstill.” – Tony 5:07 — “When you talk about your business, you talk about it like you’ve kind of lost the spark.” – Jason 9:20 — “I lost that beginner mindset.” – Tony 10:59 — “Would that fix this thing, or would there still be a big piece missing?” – Nate 12:33 — “Do you have a picture in your head of what you would like to be doing?” – Jason 16:05 — “I feel more connected with who I am and all the people around me.” – Tony 17:32 — “How would it feel to not run your own business anymore?” – Nate 19:14 — “To be honest … I’ve put in applications just for part-time jobs.” – Tony 20:11 — “If you found a way to make it work, would you still want to do it? Or is it something you need to cut?” – Nate 21:41 — “I had a couple conversations with Nate where I was like, ‘Man, I think I might just quit and get a job as a bartender.’” – Jason 26:05 — “How else can I contribute to this field?” – Tony 29:29 — “If you’re ready to walk away, then there’s no harm in trying something.” – Jason 32:39 — “My thought behind the part-time job was to test out something different, and work in a different environment.” – Tony 35:04 — “You don’t need to make it big. … You’re just testing the waters.” – Nate 38:07 — “I don’t actually schedule time for myself.” – Tony 40:24 — “When I get better, it spills out into other areas of my life.” – Tony 41:46 — “You’re creating space for you to live up to your own expectations for yourself.” – Jason 45:58 — “It didn’t even feel like I had to schedule the time. I just changed my mindset about how I was going to do it.” – Jason 46:43 — “I do that a lot, where I’ll lose myself in social media or something, and that could be time where … it’s just time for me.” – Tony 49:58 — “It’s really easy to say, ‘That doesn’t seem like progress.’” – Nate 52:02 — “You control your schedule; your schedule doesn’t control you.” – Jason 54:56 — “I don’t want to be the best fitness coach in my life; I just want to be the best person I can be.” – Tony 57:07 — “Keep a pulse on yourself, and see if just that little change starts to make you feel a little bit better about things.” – Jason

Lindsay always thought she’d eventually know what she wanted to be when she grew up. But after changing majors, grad school, getting married, and working in a job for three and a half years, she’s still not quite sure what “grown up” means, or what she wants to be — and the fact that she just got laid off is making that question a little more pressing. In this conversation, Nate Green and Jason Lengstorf talk with Lindsay about building skills instead of putting in time at a job, creating routines to keep us on track, and whether or not knowing what we want to be when we grow up is actually a good thing. At the end, the three of them devise an experiment for Lindsay to try that will help her keep the good stuff going, even when she starts a new job. NOTE: The audio on this call is a little janky, with some background noise and lag, since everyone was calling in from different corners of the world. If you can forgive the quality of the recording, we hope the quality of the content makes up for it. 1:37 — “There’s a part of me that wants to believe that all of us really know what we want to be when we grow up.” – Lindsay 2:35 — “I have now muted Jason.” – Nate 3:52 — “How can you get as good as possible at a very specific skill?” – Nate 4:40 — “I found the unmute button.” – Jason 6:41 — “The only way you could ever know exactly what you want would be to stop evolving.” - Jason 8:46 — “With careers it always seems so dire. … Our interests don’t align with our careers.” – Lindsay 13:58 — “The people who seem to be happiest … is it because of an overlap of those skills and interests?” – Jason 15:27 — “What do you feel like you are very, very good at?” – Nate 16:02 — “It feels like I’m gloating, and I feel like I’m going to say something and then suck at it.” – Lindsay 17:21 — “You know when you see those forwards that go around on Facebook that are like, ‘Pick the 5 people who would be on your team during the zombie apocalypse’?” – Jason 19:14 — “Anything that I do — and I don’t know if this is a skill — I’m damn well going to try to make it good.” – Lindsay 22:48 — “When the rug got pulled out from the pipe dream of being a rock star, I woke up to realize, ‘Holy shit, I accidentally built a practical skill set.’” – Jason 24:13 — “As long as it’s in service of a skill that seems really interesting to you … that’s a really, really good place to start.” – Nate 25:12 — “Does this skill serve me? And in what ways does it serve me?” – Lindsay 26:23 — “Someone can take a job away from you. But no one can take a skill away from you.” – Nate 27:58 — “I remember researching, ‘What to do if you hate your job and you can’t leave it.’” – Lindsay 29:11 — “It removes that mental burden of feeling like you’re wasting time.” – Jason 39:41 — “Ostensibly — ob-stensibly? That’s a horrible word to say out loud.” – Nate 40:37 — “They’d feel like they were doing work that matters. … That’s just my hunch.” – Nate 44:27 — “What concerns me? … Not knowing what the fuck I’m doing. … Feeling like an impostor.” – Lindsay 46:32 — “I know I keep bringing up the cat.” – Nate 47:34 — “I definitely like the quiet, and the peace — the stillness of the day.” – Lindsay 49:48 — “Where I started to get it corrected was when I built new routines that I could carry with me.” – Jason 51:42 — “We have a little bit of downtime, and we start rekindling some of these passions … and then we get back into the routine of working and those things just fall away again.” – Nate 53:43 — Jason references this article on staying consistent using rituals: bit.ly/1SsZeGv 54:26 — “How can you create a similar type of ritual that will allow you to do that stuff, and would you be willing to let us follow along?” – Jason 56:55 — “Do you feel that you have a certain couple of skills that you’re going to try to use in this role … something that is really interesting to you that you’re looking to get better at?” – Nate

Adam’s daughter thinks he sleeps at his office. On paper, he’s got it made: multiple degrees from prestigious schools, an enviable career, and a comfortable salary. He’s got a wife, two daughters, a nice house in a good neighborhood — this dude’s life seems pretty charmed. But Adam’s not happy. Long hours and no work-life balance — Adam calls it more of a “work-work balance” — have left him feeling stuck, and contemplating quitting it all in search of something more meaningful. In this conversation, Nate Green and Jason Lengstorf talk with Adam about what balance, perception, and success really mean. Then the three of them come up with an experiment that just might change Adam’s life — without requiring him to ruin his career. NOTE: The audio on this call is a little janky, with some background noise and lag, since everyone was calling in from different corners of the world. If you can forgive the quality of the recording, we hope the quality of the content makes up for it. 6:30 — “You give up a lot of things when you work 65–70 hours a week.” – Adam 7:12 — “Daddy, are you going to sleep at the office again tonight?” – Adam’s daughter 9:46 — “Would that be perceived as a step backward?” – Nate 11:11 — “You don’t get a bunch of people to slave away at this if they think they have better things to do.” – Adam 11:58 — “It feels really dirty, like you’re doing something awful to the company…” – Jason 12:30 — “It’s self-defeating in a lot of ways. … People who are really bright and capable crash out of the industry really quickly because they’re chewed up by that cutthroat culture.” – Adam 14:28 — “It’s like the celebration of who can be the biggest masochist.” – Jason 14:45 — “You have all these external trappings of success. … Does that stuff mean anything to you?” – Nate 16:00 — “At this private high school I was a hillbilly. It ingrained in me this aspiration for more.” – Adam 17:48 — “You realize you’re the same person with a nice watch.” – Adam 18:56 — “It keeps moving the idea of happiness outside of you.” – Jason 23:28 — “I fooled myself into thinking I was being a really good provider, but … I wasn’t doing nearly enough on the family side.” – Adam 24:59 — “It wasn’t really about the money I was making. It was about getting that hit of validation.” – Adam 32:53 — “Maybe it’s almost envy because you note that they’re comfortable enough that they don’t have to respond right away, and you feel compelled to.” – Adam 34:57 — “I had fully expected that my career was going to suffer as a result. … What I found was that my entire team was releived … and my clients didn’t even notice.” – Jason 38:09 — “Do you want the promotion?” – Nate 38:15 — “…not really.” – Adam 42:36 — “What’s the worst that could happen? The fire me and I don’t get the promotion? I’ve already said that I don’t really want it.” – Adam 45:00 — “You just see, ‘Is this a thing worth doing?’” – Nate 50:43 — “What if it was like, ‘I have this thing I cannot miss: I’m going to go eat dinner with my family at 7pm’?” – Nate 52:04 — “What I was depressed about was all the things that were being left behind in pursuit of the work.” – Jason 54:36 — “This is a stupid fucking analogy.” – Nate 55:46 — “Now, at least once a week, work is subordinated to family. It changes the dynamic.” – Jason 1:02:01 — “A lot of what I’ve accomplished in my life is because I was consistently seeking the approval of others.” – Adam 1:03:02 — “I’ve sort of turned hard work and discipline — which are positives — into negatives.” – Adam 1:03:18 — Adam mentions The Cult of Work You Never Meant to Join: bit.ly/1G4ZDvh 1:03:42 — “I’m starting to look for that validation and that happiness and that contentment internally rather than externally.” – Adam 1:06:48 — “It’s a really small thing, but it’s symbolic of the change in my attitude.” – Adam 1:07:18 — “The best habits are kept by doing small things consistently.” – Nate

Why do some people find success while other people — people who actually did better in school or had more opportunities — struggle to get by? Nate and Jason talk about honesty, calculated risks, betting on yourself, and showing up to the right places — and how that's led to their success in business and in life. 0:00 — Nate explains why this episode starts at a weird point. 1:35 — The conversation begins and Jason wants to avoid being masturbatory. 3:45 — The guys start to break down the keys to their post-high school success. 8:30 — "I was working in the most soul-sucking job I've ever had, which was as tech support for a major satellite TV company. And that — oh my god — that is like looking into the maw of hell." - Jason 10:19 — "Having you come and basically look around and go 'Dude, are you serious about this?' — that was a good wake-up call and it was definitely something that was very helpful in pulling my shit back on track." - Jason 12:28 — "I took a lot of risks that other people saw as risks that I didn't." - Nate 13:23 — "I was just ambitious and just annoying enough to get on their radar but not enough to piss them off to where they didn't wanna talk to me anymore, and those became my first couple of mentors." 13:50 — Nate's quick story about turning down cute girls, rejecting Alwyn Cosgrove's advice, running sprints, and vomiting in a 12-hour span. 15:40 — Lou Schuler: http://amzn.to/1Kg37MI 16:40 — Nate's book Built for Show: http://amzn.to/1MPjoKl 17:40 — "Successful entrepreneurs, I think they do take a lot of risks, but they never feel as risky to somebody who's an entrepreneur as they would to somebody who is looking at the situation from the outside." - Jason 19:25 — T-Nation: http://bit.ly/1MPk7vc 20:10 — Jason talks about quitting his full-time job, turning down another, and betting on himself. 22:10 — "Oh, I ate so much ramen for the first couple of months." - Jason 24:10 — Jason explains the importance of physically showing up to the right places. 29:15 — Recession Proof Graduate by Charlie Hoehn: http://bit.ly/1Jh2ArC 31:00 — Nate talks about what he would do if his salary disappeared. 37:09 — "The idea is success is fluid so I think it's just a matter of defining it for yourself and then, I don't know, being ok with whatever happens after." - Nate 38:50 — "The goal of a project isn't to launch the project. The goal of a project is to enjoy working on the project." - Jason 40:09 — "The most successful person in the world is still looking toward their next thing." - Jason 40:40 — "I found out that we're technically millennials, which at first kinda made me sad, but now I don't care." - Jason 41:17 — "As many Ws as you can control." – Jason, referring to a quote from Tim Ferriss's *4-Hour Workweek*: "Money is multiplied in practical value depending on the number of W's you control in your life: what you do, when you do it, where you do it, and with whom you do it." http://bit.ly/1NyMsWE 42:22 — "I have to take a piss." - Nate 42:45 — Rate the podcast or leave a review on iTunes: http://apple.co/1Jsj6C3 and be sure to check out the website: http://www.2ftat.com/

Nate's recent 10-day silent meditation retreat at the Northwest Vipassana Institute (bit.ly/1Mj4PNE) is the topic. 3:20 — "It reminded me of a very low-level mushroom trip." – Nate 3:50 — Waking up by Sam Harris: amzn.to/1Mfihlw 4:25 — Joe Rogan's bit about the end of civilization: bit.ly/1RISgQ9 8:50 — "I didn't feel like I was a part of a cult, but I felt like other people were a part of a cult." – Nate 9:20 — Meditation teacher S.N. Goenka: bit.ly/1fXtKdv 10:20 — Nate explains why he started meditating 10:35 — "The best way that I can explain what meditation is now, like my understanding of it, is the ability to just witness reality as it happens." – Nate 11:50 — "The idea (of meditation) does not hold any appeal to me." – Jason 13:40 — Nate says meditating trains your mind like exercising trains your body 17:40 — "What happens is I am much more likely and much more quick to realize that I am reacting in a certain way and to realize that I do not have to act in that way." – Nate 19:45 — Looking for the Self, guided meditation by Sam Harris: bit.ly/1zxtmdg 19:57 — "I would just challenge you to try that. And you may hate it, and that's fine, but at least you would get an idea of what the meditation is." – Nate

What "alone time" really means, and why it's important. 4:48 — "I feel like everything I've ever learned about myself has come in the space where I didn't have outside stimulus." – Jason 12:30 — Why limiting technology is essential to getting the most of your alone time 19:50 — "I think the meditation thing, and I guess being alone, has allowed me to accept myself and my tendencies a little bit more." – Nate 20:00 — Nate goes to extreme lengths to limit his impulsivity 21:27 — "If left to my own devices, I will use my devices." – Nate

How understanding your emotions is basically a superpower. 2:27 — "I was the perfect example of the kid who had no problems and therefore needed to invent a lot of problems." – Jason 3:00 — Jason explains how a psychedelic mushroom trip helped him look at his life from a different perspective 6:50 — "You're not someone that's just having experiences, you're part of the experience yourself as you live and go through life." – Nate 7:43 — "If you can cast off all the shit that's just weighing you down and doesn't actually add any value to your life, it's like getting a superpower." – Jason

On the importance of ditching unnecessary possessions. 1:20 — Fight Club: imdb.to/1fXToii (movie), amzn.to/1DAsktg (the book by Chuck Palahniuk) 3:10 — Missoula, MT (bit.ly/1MCUV7n) and Whitefish, MT (bit.ly/1fXUsTn) 4:00 — Nate talks about the process of deciding what to do with his physical possessions as he prepares to leave Portland and travel for an indefinite amount of time 14:14 — The Minimalists: bit.ly/1kgwuNU 17:30 — Jason explains why material minimalism is important to him 18:50 — "My memories are not inside the objects that are attached to those memories." – Jason 19:50 — "If I want to be in Tokyo tomorrow, I can do it and I don't have to worry about who's gonna take care of my shit." – Jason 20:35 — "Anything that I own, I can't take that and make it an anchor that keeps me from going somewhere I wanna go because it doesn't exist anymore." – Jason 24:00 — "I've started beating a dead horse here, so let me wrap up: umm, sell all your shit." – Jason

There are good and bad ways to handle disagreements. Nate and Jason discuss what's worked for them — and what hasn't. 4:40 — Science confirms the thing Jason thinks he's referencing: bit.ly/1NUi19Y 6:45 — Dane Cook's jelly fight bit: bit.ly/1HSdnLm 9:30 — Nate explains how you know you're in a good relationship 10:20 — Nate's wild hand gestures are apparent in his Twitter profile photo: bit.ly/1CtVYGM 13:20 — It's spelled “Annecy” (France)

Why independence is crucial in relationships, and how Nate and his partner, Chelle, brought back independence in their relationship. Plus, how Jason is managing independence in his fairly new relationship with Marisa. 3:30 — Chelle touches an elephant: bit.ly/1fuowpx 10:10 — Skyline Restaurant in Portland: bit.ly/1IPievF

On being honest with yourself and loved ones, and how being vulnerable may just be the strongest thing you can do. 3:13 — “Your baller phase got me through my starving musician phase.” – Jason 9:09 — “I really think that vulnerability is the new strength.” – Nate 9:20 — The Facebook feed life: bit.ly/1HSDnEw 14:49 — “She shouldn't be my emotional sponge that soaks up all the shit that I don't wanna process.” – Jason 15:32 — Lying by Sam Harris: bit.ly/1LWpbMo 16:50 — “Did anybody ask me for my opinion? Maybe I should shut up.” – Jason

How to extend the “honeymoon phase” of a relationship with encouragement, honesty, and a healthy dose of silliness and play. 3:45 — “She just lets me be me and she pushes me to become a better version of myself, and I do the same for her.” – Nate 6:58 — “You keep evolving. So if the two of you are changing, if the two of you are still having new experiences, then you're becoming new people so that sense of discovery that makes it exciting when you're in a new relationship never dies.” – Jason 15:57 — 3 personality tests that improved our relationship by Nate: bit.ly/1Gcjnr4 (links to the personality tests are near top of the article) 21:30 — Jason explains why it's important to have the same values, but not necessarily the same personalities and skills

What's okay to compromise on in a relationship? And where do you draw the line between making someone happy and changing who you are for someone else? 2:10 — Jason contemplates a daunting theoretical choice: his girlfriend or his beard. 7:05 — The complete Ralph Waldo Emerson quote: bit.ly/1GcjqTC 13:10 — The Princess Bride: imdb.to/1HSDUX4 25:42 — “I'm so ready for food and beer.” – Nate

Is it weird to have a best friend as a full-grown man? Nate and Jason talk about nearly 20 years of friendship, and how their relationship has helped make them both into better people. 1:50 — Mortal Kombat for Sega Genesis: bit.ly/1K4O8Gi 3:07 — “I really didn't like you the first time that we met. I think the first year or so I just, like, put up with you.” – Nate 6:21 — “That was like the glue that held our friendship together – you would get me invited to parties, and I would make sure you didn't fail your classes.” – Jason 7:00 — Nate and Jason talk about how similar ambitions and different skill sets helped their friendship grow. 13:30 — Chris Rock's quote about being your own representative: bet.us/1I0IfcN 15:04 — “I feel that best friends are something that little girls have.” – Nate 17:48 — “It was always nice to just hit you up and say 'Hey, can you maybe sanity-check me here and make sure I'm not doing something that's 100% directed by my penis.'” – Jason

Deep conversations can change the way we see the world — and the way we see ourselves. Nate and Jason talk about the impact deep conversations have had on their lives, and how those conversations became the reason to create this podcast. 1:00 — PN = Precision Nutrition: www.precisionnutrition.com 1:40 — “It's a matter of asking questions and sharing experience. I feel like the less that you give advice, the better the conversations are.” – Nate 4:20 — “Teaching something is learning it twice.” – Jason (the original quote by French writer Joseph Joubert: bit.ly/1HslU4r) 7:10 — Nate and Jason explain why this podcast exists 14:14 — Common's “Come Close” music video, ft. Mary J. Blige: bit.ly/N9Q3gM 18:47 — Nate and Jason talk about their various side-projects throughout the years, such as selling drugs, stealing random things and starting a clothing company. 20:54 — “We sold a company for a profit, then lost the profit due to tax fraud. Go team.” – Jason 23:55 — “I'm really happy and proud that this is the project that we're at least breathing some life into — enough to put out into the world.” – Nate