Podcast appearances and mentions of Derek Sivers

Tue, 17 Jun 2025 19:45:00 GMT http://relay.fm/focused/232 http://relay.fm/focused/232 David Sparks and Mike Schmitz Derek Sivers joins us to talk about personal agency, idea ownership, saying no, and (of course) journaling. Derek Sivers joins us to talk about personal agency, idea ownership, saying no, and (of course) journaling. clean 4610 Derek Sivers joins us to talk about personal agency, idea ownership, saying no, and (of course) journaling. This episode of Focused is sponsored by: Incogni: Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code FOCUSED with this link and get 60% off an annual plan. Indeed: Join more than 3.5 million businesses worldwide using Indeed to hire great talent fast. Zocdoc: Find the right doctor, right now with Zocdoc. Sign up for free. Guest Starring: Derek Sivers Links and Show Notes: Deep Focus: Extended episodes with bonus deep dive content. Derek Sivers CD Baby Hell Yeah or No | Derek Sivers How to Start a Movement | TED Talk Useful Not True | Derek Sivers Anything You Want | Derek Sivers Your Music and People | Derek Sivers How to Live | Derek Sivers How to do what you love and make good money | Derek Sivers One big choice shapes a hundred more | Derek Sivers Vim Scripting News The Confident Mind by Nate Zinser Mark Twain by Ron Chernow The Political Thought of Xi Jinping Book I've Read | Derek Sivers Pandoc What I'm doing now | Derek Sivers What I'm Doing Now | MacSparky

Tue, 17 Jun 2025 19:45:00 GMT http://relay.fm/focused/232 http://relay.fm/focused/232 Useful Not True, with Derek Sivers 232 David Sparks and Mike Schmitz Derek Sivers joins us to talk about personal agency, idea ownership, saying no, and (of course) journaling. Derek Sivers joins us to talk about personal agency, idea ownership, saying no, and (of course) journaling. clean 4610 Derek Sivers joins us to talk about personal agency, idea ownership, saying no, and (of course) journaling. This episode of Focused is sponsored by: Incogni: Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code FOCUSED with this link and get 60% off an annual plan. Indeed: Join more than 3.5 million businesses worldwide using Indeed to hire great talent fast. Zocdoc: Find the right doctor, right now with Zocdoc. Sign up for free. Guest Starring: Derek Sivers Links and Show Notes: Deep Focus: Extended episodes with bonus deep dive content. Derek Sivers CD Baby Hell Yeah or No | Derek Sivers How to Start a Movement | TED Talk Useful Not True | Derek Sivers Anything You Want | Derek Sivers Your Music and People | Derek Sivers How to Live | Derek Sivers How to do what you love and make good money | Derek Sivers One big choice shapes a hundred more | Derek Sivers Vim Scripting News The Confident Mind by Nate Zinser Mark Twain by Ron Chernow The Political Thought of Xi Jinping Book I've Read | Derek Sivers Pandoc What I'm doing now | Derek Sivers What I'm Doing Now | MacSparky

What if a little bit of delusion might be exactly what you need to boost your confidence? As the kids these days say: “being delulu is the solulu!” Mary shares 4 mindset shifts– that some might consider “delusional”– but will do wonders for your confidence. You will learn how to... - lie to yourself in an empowering way lol - stop comparing yourself to others with one very simple mindset shift - break free from external validation and derive your confidence from within - balance self-trust with consistent, confident action-taking - release perfectionism and believe in yourself Especially for women, embracing a positive mindset is often the first rebellion against a world that profits off of our self-doubt. This isn't about toxic positivity or lying to yourself in a way that's avoidant. It's about consciously choosing beliefs rooted in self-love that remind you that you are enough. Reclaim your self-esteem by choosing self-talk that inspires action and fuels your dreams, regardless of personal insecurities or cultural expectations. Remember: Confidence doesn't always have to be logical. It just has to set you free. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with your friends to spread the gift of self-love! We love women empowering women! Deepen your self-love journey with Mary's books: 1. The Gift of Self-Love, an interactive workbook that will help you build confidence, recognize your worth, and learn to finally love yourself. 2. 100 Days of Self-Love, a guided journal with 100 prompts to help you calm self-criticism and learn to love who you are. Follow Mary on IG: @maryscupofteaa and @maryspodcast Mentioned In This Episode... Ep. 212 How To Be Honest with Yourself How Often Do People Lie? University of Wisconsin article Ep. 246: The Breakup That Paved My Self-Love Journey @alok on Instagram Ep. 250: Productivity Advice Meets Self-Compassion with Oliver Burkeman Useful Not True by Derek Sivers

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3621: Derek Sivers explores how hate and loss can serve as unexpected catalysts for self-discovery and personal clarity. By confronting what repels or devastates us, we uncover our deepest values and realign with what truly matters, sharpening our sense of purpose in the process. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/hate & https://sive.rs/loss Quotes to ponder: "I used to think hate was a negative emotion to be avoided. Now I see it as a useful alarm." "What you hate is a hint at what you value. What you hate shows what you believe should not be." "Loss feels like being stripped of everything, but then you realize what was underneath it all." Episode references: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck: https://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Art-Not-Giving-Counterintuitive/dp/0062457713 Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning: https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl/dp/080701429X The Top Five Regrets of the Dying: https://www.amazon.com/Top-Five-Regrets-Dying-Transformed/dp/140194065X Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of the Road to Growth podcast, we are pleased to introduce you to Reena Friedman Watts. There's not much Reena hasn't done in her professional life. She's scoured the NPR newswire for stories. She's combed through hundreds of small claims cases. She's worked on popular reality TV shows such as The Jerry Springer Show, Court TV, and Nanny 911. She's worked in Radio. She's planned mega-events for the telecom and finance industries. She's secured sponsors and emceed. She's booked sensational and hard-to-get guests such as Howard Schultz, Barbara Corcoran, Ken Coleman, and Derek Sivers on Cathy Heller's Don't Keep Your Day Job Podcast and boosted the downloads from 4M to nearly 15M.Reena has a God-given talent for connecting people and building communities, and she bestows her magic on people most selflessly and genuinely.   Better Call Daddy is a podcast for people who love stories. Hosted by the Reena Friedman Watts (Jerry Springer Show, Court TV), everyone from influential business leaders to phone sex workers are featured on the show. Nothing is censored here! Each episode, Reena will interview a person of interest, and her father will chime in with his words of wisdom.   Learn more and connect with Reena Friedman Watts by visiting her on   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reenafriedmanwatts/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bettercalldaddypodcast/ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5L7iWicv8KpujPqPe9G7C6 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reenafriedmanwatts/       Be sure to follow us on Twitter: Twitter.com/to_growth on Facebook: facebook.com/Road2Growth   Subscribe to our podcast across the web: https://www.theenriquezgroup.com/blog Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2Cdmacc iTunes: https://apple.co/2F4zAcn Castbox: http://bit.ly/2F4NfQq Google Play: http://bit.ly/2TxUYQ2 Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKnzMRkl-PurAb32mCLCMeA?view_as=subscriber   If you are looking to be a Guest on Podcasts please click below  https://kitcaster.com/rtg/  For any San Diego Real Estate Questions Please Follow Us at web: www.TheEnriquezGroup.com Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKnzMRkl-PurAb32mCLCMeA or Call : 858 -345 - 7829 Recently reduced properties in San Diego County * Click **** bit.ly/3cbT65C **** Here* ************************************************************ Sponsor = www.MelodyClouds.com

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3621: Derek Sivers explores how hate and loss can serve as unexpected catalysts for self-discovery and personal clarity. By confronting what repels or devastates us, we uncover our deepest values and realign with what truly matters, sharpening our sense of purpose in the process. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/hate & https://sive.rs/loss Quotes to ponder: "I used to think hate was a negative emotion to be avoided. Now I see it as a useful alarm." "What you hate is a hint at what you value. What you hate shows what you believe should not be." "Loss feels like being stripped of everything, but then you realize what was underneath it all." Episode references: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck: https://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Art-Not-Giving-Counterintuitive/dp/0062457713 Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning: https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl/dp/080701429X The Top Five Regrets of the Dying: https://www.amazon.com/Top-Five-Regrets-Dying-Transformed/dp/140194065X Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3621: Derek Sivers explores how hate and loss can serve as unexpected catalysts for self-discovery and personal clarity. By confronting what repels or devastates us, we uncover our deepest values and realign with what truly matters, sharpening our sense of purpose in the process. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/hate & https://sive.rs/loss Quotes to ponder: "I used to think hate was a negative emotion to be avoided. Now I see it as a useful alarm." "What you hate is a hint at what you value. What you hate shows what you believe should not be." "Loss feels like being stripped of everything, but then you realize what was underneath it all." Episode references: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck: https://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Art-Not-Giving-Counterintuitive/dp/0062457713 Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning: https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl/dp/080701429X The Top Five Regrets of the Dying: https://www.amazon.com/Top-Five-Regrets-Dying-Transformed/dp/140194065X Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When I started this podcast more than 7 years ago, I listed Derek Sivers as my dream guest (sorry Kelly Slater). Sivers' gift, I believe, is the willingness to question the premise of all things, delightfully, humorously, and give anyone in his orbit the choice to follow a more original path. An author of philosophy and entrepreneurship, he's known for his surprising quotable insights, pithy succinct writing style, and commitment to minimalism. (He currently lives in a 4x8 meter house in New Zealand and is building it out slowly, room by room, just to see what he needs.) Formerly a musician, programmer, TED speaker, and circus clown, he sold his first company for $22 million and gave all the money to charity. Sivers' books (Useful, Not True, How to Live, Hell Yeah or No, Your Music and People, Anything You Want) and newest projects are at his website: sive.rs. He loves hearing from strangers and will reply to every email, so if you enjoyed this podcast, shoot him an email and let him know. If you dig this podcast, will you please leave a short review on Apple Podcasts? It takes less than 60 seconds and makes a difference when I drop to my knees and beg hard-to-get guests on the show. I read them all. You can watch this podcast on my YouTube channel and join my newsletter on Substack. It's glorious. Get full access to Kyle Thiermann at thiermann.substack.com/subscribe

When I started this podcast more than 7 years ago, I listed Derek Sivers as my dream guest (sorry Kelly Slater). Sivers' gift, I believe, is the willingness to question the premise of all things, delightfully, humorously, and give anyone in his orbit the choice to follow a more original path. An author of philosophy and entrepreneurship, he's known for his surprising quotable insights, pithy succinct writing style, and commitment to minimalism. (He currently lives in a 4x8 meter house in New Zealand and is building it out slowly, room by room, just to see what he needs.) Formerly a musician, programmer, TED speaker, and circus clown, he sold his first company for $22 million and gave all the money to charity. Sivers' books (Useful, Not True, How to Live, Hell Yeah or No, Your Music and People, Anything You Want) and newest projects are at his website: sive.rs. He loves hearing from strangers and will reply to every email, so if you enjoyed this podcast, shoot him an email and let him know. If you dig this podcast, will you please leave a short review on Apple Podcasts? It takes less than 60 seconds and makes a difference when I drop to my knees and beg hard-to-get guests on the show. I read them all. You can watch this podcast on my YouTube channel and join my newsletter on Substack. It's glorious. Get full access to Kyle Thiermann at thiermann.substack.com/subscribe

What if a little bit of delusion might be exactly what you need to boost your confidence? As the kids these days say: “being delulu is the solulu!”Mary shares 4 mindset shifts– that some might consider “delusional”– but will do wonders for your confidence. You will learn how to... - lie to yourself in an empowering way lol - stop comparing yourself to others with one very simple mindset shift - break free from external validation and derive your confidence from within - balance self-trust with consistent, confident action-taking - release perfectionism and believe in yourself Especially for women, embracing a positive mindset is often the first rebellion against a world that profits off of our self-doubt. This isn't about toxic positivity or lying to yourself in a way that's avoidant. It's about consciously choosing beliefs rooted in self-love that remind you that you are enough. Reclaim your self-esteem by choosing self-talk that inspires action and fuels your dreams, regardless of personal insecurities or cultural expectations. Remember: Confidence doesn't always have to be logical. It just has to set you free. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with your friends to spread the gift of self-love! We love women empowering women! Deepen your self-love journey with Mary's books: 1. The Gift of Self-Love, an interactive workbook that will help you build confidence, recognize your worth, and learn to finally love yourself. 2. 100 Days of Self-Love, a guided journal with 100 prompts to help you calm self-criticism and learn to love who you are. Follow Mary on IG: @maryscupofteaa and @maryspodcast Mentioned In This Episode: Ep. 212 How To Be Honest with Yourself How Often Do People Lie? University of Wisconsin article Ep. 246: The Breakup That Paved My Self-Love Journey @alok on Instagram Ep. 250: Productivity Advice Meets Self-Compassion with Oliver Burkeman Useful Not True by Derek Sivers

TUNE IN TO LEARN:  What if the solution to your productivity struggles isn't found in the next AI tool, but in mastering something you already possess?   This episode explores a simple truth about personal growth and leadership: we've mistakenly believed that better tools, more knowledge, or the perfect system will finally help us get organized and reach our potential. Yet despite having access to all the knowledge we need to live better lives, most of us still struggle with consistency and follow-through.  Why is that?  The real operating system for success isn't external - it's internal.  Drawing from research on emotional regulation and insights from experts and entrepreneurs like Derek Sivers and Yu-kai Chou, we unpack how the most important human problem to "fix" isn't knowledge or access to tools - it's self-leadership.  At the heart of this episode is a practical five-step framework for emotional mastery to unlock self-leadership skills you need to get the most of all the tools and knowledge humanity has to offer - you'll discover how to cultivate your "emotional garden" to drive meaningful change.  Ready to move beyond the endless search for the perfect productivity system?  Join us to learn how emotional mastery creates the foundation for everything else in your life to work successfully.    Text Me Your Thoughts and IdeasSupport the show Brought to you by Angela Shurina EXECUTIVE & OPTIMAL PERFORMANCE COACH

Being willing to try things is great. Being sure the next thing is the secret to life might mean closets full of gadgets you never use. This is the smart shopping edition of Doing What Works.Here are your show notes…Confirmation bias is the tendency to process information by looking for, or interpreting, information that is consistent with your existing beliefs.A low-probability, high-consequence event is a risk you don't necessarily want to take.Derek Sivers says if you trust the source you don't need the argument.We contain multitudes.Garrison Keillor says what keeps us going is the hope tomorrow will be different.

Hello, I'd really like to grow this email list. If you enjoy this newsletter, it would mean the world to Jola and I if you encouraged one friend/fellow immigrant/colleague to subscribe…Very likely, the the only thing you will get in return is warm fuzzy feelings, and if I can attribute it to you, I'd personally send you a thank you email.Join us as we explore the bitter-sweet world of the immigrant.In this episode, I'm speaking with Derek Sivers, author of Useful Not True, who moved away from the United States after voting for Obama and hasn't looked back.What would the world look like if we saw people from other countries or cultures as ‘cousins we haven't met yet?' A more peaceful and accepting world maybe? Or at least one where we are a bit more open-minded. Because as Derek puts it, “This world is my home.”In this conversation, Derek and I chat about why he left America. We also explore:* Why he thinks integration is on the immigrant and not the local* Raising his kid in multiple cultural contexts* How to keep your mind flexible as an immigrant* And his one tip for settling into a new country Official Links✅ Connect with Derek ✅ Buy the Useful Not True book✅ Check out Derek's websiteOne AskIf you found this story helpful, please forward or share it to one immigrant out there. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thenewcomerspod.com

Useful Not True Book Summary | Why Truth Doesn't Matter as Much as You ThinkWhat if the question “Is this true?” is the wrong one to ask?In Useful Not True, Derek Sivers flips the script on how we think about truth, beliefs, and reality. Instead of obsessing over what's factually accurate, Sivers asks a more powerful question: Is this belief useful?In this Book Summary, you'll discover: ✔ Why truth is often just perspective (and that's okay) ✔ How to separate facts from feelings ✔ The power of choosing beliefs that serve you, even if they're not “true” ✔ How rules, obligations, and cultural norms are more flexible than you think ✔ Why reframing your beliefs can change your life

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 1663: Derek Sivers reveals how desperation can be a powerful motivator when used intentionally, allowing us to bypass fear and unlock action. He contrasts this with the idea of gradual progress, emphasizing how clarity, simplicity, and aligned action, without rushing, can lead to sustainable growth and mastery. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/desperate  AND  https://sive.rs/prog Quotes to ponder: "Desperation is surprisingly useful. It makes you do whatever it takes." "Progress means you're working in a direction you want to go, not towards something you feel forced into." "You can make amazing progress without desperation." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 1663: Derek Sivers reveals how desperation can be a powerful motivator when used intentionally, allowing us to bypass fear and unlock action. He contrasts this with the idea of gradual progress, emphasizing how clarity, simplicity, and aligned action, without rushing, can lead to sustainable growth and mastery. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/desperate  AND  https://sive.rs/prog Quotes to ponder: "Desperation is surprisingly useful. It makes you do whatever it takes." "Progress means you're working in a direction you want to go, not towards something you feel forced into." "You can make amazing progress without desperation." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of the Armen Show Podcast, host Armen Shirvanian welcomes Derek Sivers, a renowned author and entrepreneur. They discuss the importance of principles, the art of writing, and the significance of clarity in communication. Derek shares insights on how to prioritize opportunities, the role of luck in success, and the value of critical […]

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3551: Success comes from results, not just potential. Derek Sivers shares a lesson from the music industry: those who show momentum get better opportunities. He also warns against blindly following advice, as it's often shaped by personal bias. Instead, gather multiple perspectives and trust your own judgment. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sivers.org/success-first  &  https://sivers.org/advice Quotes to ponder: "You have to make your own success first, before you ask the industry for help." "Show that you're going to be successful without their help. Show that you have momentum." "The problem is taking any one person's advice too seriously. Ideally, asking advice should be like echolocation." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3551: Success comes from results, not just potential. Derek Sivers shares a lesson from the music industry: those who show momentum get better opportunities. He also warns against blindly following advice, as it's often shaped by personal bias. Instead, gather multiple perspectives and trust your own judgment. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sivers.org/success-first  &  https://sivers.org/advice Quotes to ponder: "You have to make your own success first, before you ask the industry for help." "Show that you're going to be successful without their help. Show that you have momentum." "The problem is taking any one person's advice too seriously. Ideally, asking advice should be like echolocation." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3551: Success comes from results, not just potential. Derek Sivers shares a lesson from the music industry: those who show momentum get better opportunities. He also warns against blindly following advice, as it's often shaped by personal bias. Instead, gather multiple perspectives and trust your own judgment. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sivers.org/success-first  &  https://sivers.org/advice Quotes to ponder: "You have to make your own success first, before you ask the industry for help." "Show that you're going to be successful without their help. Show that you have momentum." "The problem is taking any one person's advice too seriously. Ideally, asking advice should be like echolocation." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If you're in SF: Join us for the Claude Plays Pokemon hackathon this Sunday!If you're not: Fill out the 2025 State of AI Eng survey for $250 in Amazon cards!We are SO excited to share our conversation with Dharmesh Shah, co-founder of HubSpot and creator of Agent.ai.A particularly compelling concept we discussed is the idea of "hybrid teams" - the next evolution in workplace organization where human workers collaborate with AI agents as team members. Just as we previously saw hybrid teams emerge in terms of full-time vs. contract workers, or in-office vs. remote workers, Dharmesh predicts that the next frontier will be teams composed of both human and AI members. This raises interesting questions about team dynamics, trust, and how to effectively delegate tasks between human and AI team members.The discussion of business models in AI reveals an important distinction between Work as a Service (WaaS) and Results as a Service (RaaS), something Dharmesh has written extensively about. While RaaS has gained popularity, particularly in customer support applications where outcomes are easily measurable, Dharmesh argues that this model may be over-indexed. Not all AI applications have clearly definable outcomes or consistent economic value per transaction, making WaaS more appropriate in many cases. This insight is particularly relevant for businesses considering how to monetize AI capabilities.The technical challenges of implementing effective agent systems are also explored, particularly around memory and authentication. Shah emphasizes the importance of cross-agent memory sharing and the need for more granular control over data access. He envisions a future where users can selectively share parts of their data with different agents, similar to how OAuth works but with much finer control. This points to significant opportunities in developing infrastructure for secure and efficient agent-to-agent communication and data sharing.Other highlights from our conversation* The Evolution of AI-Powered Agents – Exploring how AI agents have evolved from simple chatbots to sophisticated multi-agent systems, and the role of MCPs in enabling that.* Hybrid Digital Teams and the Future of Work – How AI agents are becoming teammates rather than just tools, and what this means for business operations and knowledge work.* Memory in AI Agents – The importance of persistent memory in AI systems and how shared memory across agents could enhance collaboration and efficiency.* Business Models for AI Agents – Exploring the shift from software as a service (SaaS) to work as a service (WaaS) and results as a service (RaaS), and what this means for monetization.* The Role of Standards Like MCP – Why MCP has been widely adopted and how it enables agent collaboration, tool use, and discovery.* The Future of AI Code Generation and Software Engineering – How AI-assisted coding is changing the role of software engineers and what skills will matter most in the future.* Domain Investing and Efficient Markets – Dharmesh's approach to domain investing and how inefficiencies in digital asset markets create business opportunities.* The Philosophy of Saying No – Lessons from "Sorry, You Must Pass" and how prioritization leads to greater productivity and focus.Timestamps* 00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome* 02:29 Dharmesh Shah's Journey into AI* 05:22 Defining AI Agents* 06:45 The Evolution and Future of AI Agents* 13:53 Graph Theory and Knowledge Representation* 20:02 Engineering Practices and Overengineering* 25:57 The Role of Junior Engineers in the AI Era* 28:20 Multi-Agent Systems and MCP Standards* 35:55 LinkedIn's Legal Battles and Data Scraping* 37:32 The Future of AI and Hybrid Teams* 39:19 Building Agent AI: A Professional Network for Agents* 40:43 Challenges and Innovations in Agent AI* 45:02 The Evolution of UI in AI Systems* 01:00:25 Business Models: Work as a Service vs. Results as a Service* 01:09:17 The Future Value of Engineers* 01:09:51 Exploring the Role of Agents* 01:10:28 The Importance of Memory in AI* 01:11:02 Challenges and Opportunities in AI Memory* 01:12:41 Selective Memory and Privacy Concerns* 01:13:27 The Evolution of AI Tools and Platforms* 01:18:23 Domain Names and AI Projects* 01:32:08 Balancing Work and Personal Life* 01:35:52 Final Thoughts and ReflectionsTranscriptAlessio [00:00:04]: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Small AI.swyx [00:00:12]: Hello, and today we're super excited to have Dharmesh Shah to join us. I guess your relevant title here is founder of Agent AI.Dharmesh [00:00:20]: Yeah, that's true for this. Yeah, creator of Agent.ai and co-founder of HubSpot.swyx [00:00:25]: Co-founder of HubSpot, which I followed for many years, I think 18 years now, gonna be 19 soon. And you caught, you know, people can catch up on your HubSpot story elsewhere. I should also thank Sean Puri, who I've chatted with back and forth, who's been, I guess, getting me in touch with your people. But also, I think like, just giving us a lot of context, because obviously, My First Million joined you guys, and they've been chatting with you guys a lot. So for the business side, we can talk about that, but I kind of wanted to engage your CTO, agent, engineer side of things. So how did you get agent religion?Dharmesh [00:01:00]: Let's see. So I've been working, I'll take like a half step back, a decade or so ago, even though actually more than that. So even before HubSpot, the company I was contemplating that I had named for was called Ingenisoft. And the idea behind Ingenisoft was a natural language interface to business software. Now realize this is 20 years ago, so that was a hard thing to do. But the actual use case that I had in mind was, you know, we had data sitting in business systems like a CRM or something like that. And my kind of what I thought clever at the time. Oh, what if we used email as the kind of interface to get to business software? And the motivation for using email is that it automatically works when you're offline. So imagine I'm getting on a plane or I'm on a plane. There was no internet on planes back then. It's like, oh, I'm going through business cards from an event I went to. I can just type things into an email just to have them all in the backlog. When it reconnects, it sends those emails to a processor that basically kind of parses effectively the commands and updates the software, sends you the file, whatever it is. And there was a handful of commands. I was a little bit ahead of the times in terms of what was actually possible. And I reattempted this natural language thing with a product called ChatSpot that I did back 20...swyx [00:02:12]: Yeah, this is your first post-ChatGPT project.Dharmesh [00:02:14]: I saw it come out. Yeah. And so I've always been kind of fascinated by this natural language interface to software. Because, you know, as software developers, myself included, we've always said, oh, we build intuitive, easy-to-use applications. And it's not intuitive at all, right? Because what we're doing is... We're taking the mental model that's in our head of what we're trying to accomplish with said piece of software and translating that into a series of touches and swipes and clicks and things like that. And there's nothing natural or intuitive about it. And so natural language interfaces, for the first time, you know, whatever the thought is you have in your head and expressed in whatever language that you normally use to talk to yourself in your head, you can just sort of emit that and have software do something. And I thought that was kind of a breakthrough, which it has been. And it's gone. So that's where I first started getting into the journey. I started because now it actually works, right? So once we got ChatGPT and you can take, even with a few-shot example, convert something into structured, even back in the ChatGP 3.5 days, it did a decent job in a few-shot example, convert something to structured text if you knew what kinds of intents you were going to have. And so that happened. And that ultimately became a HubSpot project. But then agents intrigued me because I'm like, okay, well, that's the next step here. So chat's great. Love Chat UX. But if we want to do something even more meaningful, it felt like the next kind of advancement is not this kind of, I'm chatting with some software in a kind of a synchronous back and forth model, is that software is going to do things for me in kind of a multi-step way to try and accomplish some goals. So, yeah, that's when I first got started. It's like, okay, what would that look like? Yeah. And I've been obsessed ever since, by the way.Alessio [00:03:55]: Which goes back to your first experience with it, which is like you're offline. Yeah. And you want to do a task. You don't need to do it right now. You just want to queue it up for somebody to do it for you. Yes. As you think about agents, like, let's start at the easy question, which is like, how do you define an agent? Maybe. You mean the hardest question in the universe? Is that what you mean?Dharmesh [00:04:12]: You said you have an irritating take. I do have an irritating take. I think, well, some number of people have been irritated, including within my own team. So I have a very broad definition for agents, which is it's AI-powered software that accomplishes a goal. Period. That's it. And what irritates people about it is like, well, that's so broad as to be completely non-useful. And I understand that. I understand the criticism. But in my mind, if you kind of fast forward months, I guess, in AI years, the implementation of it, and we're already starting to see this, and we'll talk about this, different kinds of agents, right? So I think in addition to having a usable definition, and I like yours, by the way, and we should talk more about that, that you just came out with, the classification of agents actually is also useful, which is, is it autonomous or non-autonomous? Does it have a deterministic workflow? Does it have a non-deterministic workflow? Is it working synchronously? Is it working asynchronously? Then you have the different kind of interaction modes. Is it a chat agent, kind of like a customer support agent would be? You're having this kind of back and forth. Is it a workflow agent that just does a discrete number of steps? So there's all these different flavors of agents. So if I were to draw it in a Venn diagram, I would draw a big circle that says, this is agents, and then I have a bunch of circles, some overlapping, because they're not mutually exclusive. And so I think that's what's interesting, and we're seeing development along a bunch of different paths, right? So if you look at the first implementation of agent frameworks, you look at Baby AGI and AutoGBT, I think it was, not Autogen, that's the Microsoft one. They were way ahead of their time because they assumed this level of reasoning and execution and planning capability that just did not exist, right? So it was an interesting thought experiment, which is what it was. Even the guy that, I'm an investor in Yohei's fund that did Baby AGI. It wasn't ready, but it was a sign of what was to come. And so the question then is, when is it ready? And so lots of people talk about the state of the art when it comes to agents. I'm a pragmatist, so I think of the state of the practical. It's like, okay, well, what can I actually build that has commercial value or solves actually some discrete problem with some baseline of repeatability or verifiability?swyx [00:06:22]: There was a lot, and very, very interesting. I'm not irritated by it at all. Okay. As you know, I take a... There's a lot of anthropological view or linguistics view. And in linguistics, you don't want to be prescriptive. You want to be descriptive. Yeah. So you're a goals guy. That's the key word in your thing. And other people have other definitions that might involve like delegated trust or non-deterministic work, LLM in the loop, all that stuff. The other thing I was thinking about, just the comment on Baby AGI, LGBT. Yeah. In that piece that you just read, I was able to go through our backlog and just kind of track the winter of agents and then the summer now. Yeah. And it's... We can tell the whole story as an oral history, just following that thread. And it's really just like, I think, I tried to explain the why now, right? Like I had, there's better models, of course. There's better tool use with like, they're just more reliable. Yep. Better tools with MCP and all that stuff. And I'm sure you have opinions on that too. Business model shift, which you like a lot. I just heard you talk about RAS with MFM guys. Yep. Cost is dropping a lot. Yep. Inference is getting faster. There's more model diversity. Yep. Yep. I think it's a subtle point. It means that like, you have different models with different perspectives. You don't get stuck in the basin of performance of a single model. Sure. You can just get out of it by just switching models. Yep. Multi-agent research and RL fine tuning. So I just wanted to let you respond to like any of that.Dharmesh [00:07:44]: Yeah. A couple of things. Connecting the dots on the kind of the definition side of it. So we'll get the irritation out of the way completely. I have one more, even more irritating leap on the agent definition thing. So here's the way I think about it. By the way, the kind of word agent, I looked it up, like the English dictionary definition. The old school agent, yeah. Is when you have someone or something that does something on your behalf, like a travel agent or a real estate agent acts on your behalf. It's like proxy, which is a nice kind of general definition. So the other direction I'm sort of headed, and it's going to tie back to tool calling and MCP and things like that, is if you, and I'm not a biologist by any stretch of the imagination, but we have these single-celled organisms, right? Like the simplest possible form of what one would call life. But it's still life. It just happens to be single-celled. And then you can combine cells and then cells become specialized over time. And you have much more sophisticated organisms, you know, kind of further down the spectrum. In my mind, at the most fundamental level, you can almost think of having atomic agents. What is the simplest possible thing that's an agent that can still be called an agent? What is the equivalent of a kind of single-celled organism? And the reason I think that's useful is right now we're headed down the road, which I think is very exciting around tool use, right? That says, okay, the LLMs now can be provided a set of tools that it calls to accomplish whatever it needs to accomplish in the kind of furtherance of whatever goal it's trying to get done. And I'm not overly bothered by it, but if you think about it, if you just squint a little bit and say, well, what if everything was an agent? And what if tools were actually just atomic agents? Because then it's turtles all the way down, right? Then it's like, oh, well, all that's really happening with tool use is that we have a network of agents that know about each other through something like an MMCP and can kind of decompose a particular problem and say, oh, I'm going to delegate this to this set of agents. And why do we need to draw this distinction between tools, which are functions most of the time? And an actual agent. And so I'm going to write this irritating LinkedIn post, you know, proposing this. It's like, okay. And I'm not suggesting we should call even functions, you know, call them agents. But there is a certain amount of elegance that happens when you say, oh, we can just reduce it down to one primitive, which is an agent that you can combine in complicated ways to kind of raise the level of abstraction and accomplish higher order goals. Anyway, that's my answer. I'd say that's a success. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk on agent definitions.Alessio [00:09:54]: How do you define the minimum viable agent? Do you already have a definition for, like, where you draw the line between a cell and an atom? Yeah.Dharmesh [00:10:02]: So in my mind, it has to, at some level, use AI in order for it to—otherwise, it's just software. It's like, you know, we don't need another word for that. And so that's probably where I draw the line. So then the question, you know, the counterargument would be, well, if that's true, then lots of tools themselves are actually not agents because they're just doing a database call or a REST API call or whatever it is they're doing. And that does not necessarily qualify them, which is a fair counterargument. And I accept that. It's like a good argument. I still like to think about—because we'll talk about multi-agent systems, because I think—so we've accepted, which I think is true, lots of people have said it, and you've hopefully combined some of those clips of really smart people saying this is the year of agents, and I completely agree, it is the year of agents. But then shortly after that, it's going to be the year of multi-agent systems or multi-agent networks. I think that's where it's going to be headed next year. Yeah.swyx [00:10:54]: Opening eyes already on that. Yeah. My quick philosophical engagement with you on this. I often think about kind of the other spectrum, the other end of the cell spectrum. So single cell is life, multi-cell is life, and you clump a bunch of cells together in a more complex organism, they become organs, like an eye and a liver or whatever. And then obviously we consider ourselves one life form. There's not like a lot of lives within me. I'm just one life. And now, obviously, I don't think people don't really like to anthropomorphize agents and AI. Yeah. But we are extending our consciousness and our brain and our functionality out into machines. I just saw you were a Bee. Yeah. Which is, you know, it's nice. I have a limitless pendant in my pocket.Dharmesh [00:11:37]: I got one of these boys. Yeah.swyx [00:11:39]: I'm testing it all out. You know, got to be early adopters. But like, we want to extend our personal memory into these things so that we can be good at the things that we're good at. And, you know, machines are good at it. Machines are there. So like, my definition of life is kind of like going outside of my own body now. I don't know if you've ever had like reflections on that. Like how yours. How our self is like actually being distributed outside of you. Yeah.Dharmesh [00:12:01]: I don't fancy myself a philosopher. But you went there. So yeah, I did go there. I'm fascinated by kind of graphs and graph theory and networks and have been for a long, long time. And to me, we're sort of all nodes in this kind of larger thing. It just so happens that we're looking at individual kind of life forms as they exist right now. But so the idea is when you put a podcast out there, there's these little kind of nodes you're putting out there of like, you know, conceptual ideas. Once again, you have varying kind of forms of those little nodes that are up there and are connected in varying and sundry ways. And so I just think of myself as being a node in a massive, massive network. And I'm producing more nodes as I put content or ideas. And, you know, you spend some portion of your life collecting dots, experiences, people, and some portion of your life then connecting dots from the ones that you've collected over time. And I found that really interesting things happen and you really can't know in advance how those dots are necessarily going to connect in the future. And that's, yeah. So that's my philosophical take. That's the, yes, exactly. Coming back.Alessio [00:13:04]: Yep. Do you like graph as an agent? Abstraction? That's been one of the hot topics with LandGraph and Pydantic and all that.Dharmesh [00:13:11]: I do. The thing I'm more interested in terms of use of graphs, and there's lots of work happening on that now, is graph data stores as an alternative in terms of knowledge stores and knowledge graphs. Yeah. Because, you know, so I've been in software now 30 plus years, right? So it's not 10,000 hours. It's like 100,000 hours that I've spent doing this stuff. And so I've grew up with, so back in the day, you know, I started on mainframes. There was a product called IMS from IBM, which is basically an index database, what we'd call like a key value store today. Then we've had relational databases, right? We have tables and columns and foreign key relationships. We all know that. We have document databases like MongoDB, which is sort of a nested structure keyed by a specific index. We have vector stores, vector embedding database. And graphs are interesting for a couple of reasons. One is, so it's not classically structured in a relational way. When you say structured database, to most people, they're thinking tables and columns and in relational database and set theory and all that. Graphs still have structure, but it's not the tables and columns structure. And you could wonder, and people have made this case, that they are a better representation of knowledge for LLMs and for AI generally than other things. So that's kind of thing number one conceptually, and that might be true, I think is possibly true. And the other thing that I really like about that in the context of, you know, I've been in the context of data stores for RAG is, you know, RAG, you say, oh, I have a million documents, I'm going to build the vector embeddings, I'm going to come back with the top X based on the semantic match, and that's fine. All that's very, very useful. But the reality is something gets lost in the chunking process and the, okay, well, those tend, you know, like, you don't really get the whole picture, so to speak, and maybe not even the right set of dimensions on the kind of broader picture. And it makes intuitive sense to me that if we did capture it properly in a graph form, that maybe that feeding into a RAG pipeline will actually yield better results for some use cases, I don't know, but yeah.Alessio [00:15:03]: And do you feel like at the core of it, there's this difference between imperative and declarative programs? Because if you think about HubSpot, it's like, you know, people and graph kind of goes hand in hand, you know, but I think maybe the software before was more like primary foreign key based relationship, versus now the models can traverse through the graph more easily.Dharmesh [00:15:22]: Yes. So I like that representation. There's something. It's just conceptually elegant about graphs and just from the representation of it, they're much more discoverable, you can kind of see it, there's observability to it, versus kind of embeddings, which you can't really do much with as a human. You know, once they're in there, you can't pull stuff back out. But yeah, I like that kind of idea of it. And the other thing that's kind of, because I love graphs, I've been long obsessed with PageRank from back in the early days. And, you know, one of the kind of simplest algorithms in terms of coming up, you know, with a phone, everyone's been exposed to PageRank. And the idea is that, and so I had this other idea for a project, not a company, and I have hundreds of these, called NodeRank, is to be able to take the idea of PageRank and apply it to an arbitrary graph that says, okay, I'm going to define what authority looks like and say, okay, well, that's interesting to me, because then if you say, I'm going to take my knowledge store, and maybe this person that contributed some number of chunks to the graph data store has more authority on this particular use case or prompt that's being submitted than this other one that may, or maybe this one was more. popular, or maybe this one has, whatever it is, there should be a way for us to kind of rank nodes in a graph and sort them in some, some useful way. Yeah.swyx [00:16:34]: So I think that's generally useful for, for anything. I think the, the problem, like, so even though at my conferences, GraphRag is super popular and people are getting knowledge, graph religion, and I will say like, it's getting space, getting traction in two areas, conversation memory, and then also just rag in general, like the, the, the document data. Yeah. It's like a source. Most ML practitioners would say that knowledge graph is kind of like a dirty word. The graph database, people get graph religion, everything's a graph, and then they, they go really hard into it and then they get a, they get a graph that is too complex to navigate. Yes. And so like the, the, the simple way to put it is like you at running HubSpot, you know, the power of graphs, the way that Google has pitched them for many years, but I don't suspect that HubSpot itself uses a knowledge graph. No. Yeah.Dharmesh [00:17:26]: So when is it over engineering? Basically? It's a great question. I don't know. So the question now, like in AI land, right, is the, do we necessarily need to understand? So right now, LLMs for, for the most part are somewhat black boxes, right? We sort of understand how the, you know, the algorithm itself works, but we really don't know what's going on in there and, and how things come out. So if a graph data store is able to produce the outcomes we want, it's like, here's a set of queries I want to be able to submit and then it comes out with useful content. Maybe the underlying data store is as opaque as a vector embeddings or something like that, but maybe it's fine. Maybe we don't necessarily need to understand it to get utility out of it. And so maybe if it's messy, that's okay. Um, that's, it's just another form of lossy compression. Uh, it's just lossy in a way that we just don't completely understand in terms of, because it's going to grow organically. Uh, and it's not structured. It's like, ah, we're just gonna throw a bunch of stuff in there. Let the, the equivalent of the embedding algorithm, whatever they called in graph land. Um, so the one with the best results wins. I think so. Yeah.swyx [00:18:26]: Or is this the practical side of me is like, yeah, it's, if it's useful, we don't necessarilyDharmesh [00:18:30]: need to understand it.swyx [00:18:30]: I have, I mean, I'm happy to push back as long as you want. Uh, it's not practical to evaluate like the 10 different options out there because it takes time. It takes people, it takes, you know, resources, right? Set. That's the first thing. Second thing is your evals are typically on small things and some things only work at scale. Yup. Like graphs. Yup.Dharmesh [00:18:46]: Yup. That's, yeah, no, that's fair. And I think this is one of the challenges in terms of implementation of graph databases is that the most common approach that I've seen developers do, I've done it myself, is that, oh, I've got a Postgres database or a MySQL or whatever. I can represent a graph with a very set of tables with a parent child thing or whatever. And that sort of gives me the ability, uh, why would I need anything more than that? And the answer is, well, if you don't need anything more than that, you don't need anything more than that. But there's a high chance that you're sort of missing out on the actual value that, uh, the graph representation gives you. Which is the ability to traverse the graph, uh, efficiently in ways that kind of going through the, uh, traversal in a relational database form, even though structurally you have the data, practically you're not gonna be able to pull it out in, in useful ways. Uh, so you wouldn't like represent a social graph, uh, in, in using that kind of relational table model. It just wouldn't scale. It wouldn't work.swyx [00:19:36]: Uh, yeah. Uh, I think we want to move on to MCP. Yeah. But I just want to, like, just engineering advice. Yeah. Uh, obviously you've, you've, you've run, uh, you've, you've had to do a lot of projects and run a lot of teams. Do you have a general rule for over-engineering or, you know, engineering ahead of time? You know, like, because people, we know premature engineering is the root of all evil. Yep. But also sometimes you just have to. Yep. When do you do it? Yes.Dharmesh [00:19:59]: It's a great question. This is, uh, a question as old as time almost, which is what's the right and wrong levels of abstraction. That's effectively what, uh, we're answering when we're trying to do engineering. I tend to be a pragmatist, right? So here's the thing. Um, lots of times doing something the right way. Yeah. It's like a marginal increased cost in those cases. Just do it the right way. And this is what makes a, uh, a great engineer or a good engineer better than, uh, a not so great one. It's like, okay, all things being equal. If it's going to take you, you know, roughly close to constant time anyway, might as well do it the right way. Like, so do things well, then the question is, okay, well, am I building a framework as the reusable library? To what degree, uh, what am I anticipating in terms of what's going to need to change in this thing? Uh, you know, along what dimension? And then I think like a business person in some ways, like what's the return on calories, right? So, uh, and you look at, um, energy, the expected value of it's like, okay, here are the five possible things that could happen, uh, try to assign probabilities like, okay, well, if there's a 50% chance that we're going to go down this particular path at some day, like, or one of these five things is going to happen and it costs you 10% more to engineer for that. It's basically, it's something that yields a kind of interest compounding value. Um, as you get closer to the time of, of needing that versus having to take on debt, which is when you under engineer it, you're taking on debt. You're going to have to pay off when you do get to that eventuality where something happens. One thing as a pragmatist, uh, so I would rather under engineer something than over engineer it. If I were going to err on the side of something, and here's the reason is that when you under engineer it, uh, yes, you take on tech debt, uh, but the interest rate is relatively known and payoff is very, very possible, right? Which is, oh, I took a shortcut here as a result of which now this thing that should have taken me a week is now going to take me four weeks. Fine. But if that particular thing that you thought might happen, never actually, you never have that use case transpire or just doesn't, it's like, well, you just save yourself time, right? And that has value because you were able to do other things instead of, uh, kind of slightly over-engineering it away, over-engineering it. But there's no perfect answers in art form in terms of, uh, and yeah, we'll, we'll bring kind of this layers of abstraction back on the code generation conversation, which we'll, uh, I think I have later on, butAlessio [00:22:05]: I was going to ask, we can just jump ahead quickly. Yeah. Like, as you think about vibe coding and all that, how does the. Yeah. Percentage of potential usefulness change when I feel like we over-engineering a lot of times it's like the investment in syntax, it's less about the investment in like arc exacting. Yep. Yeah. How does that change your calculus?Dharmesh [00:22:22]: A couple of things, right? One is, um, so, you know, going back to that kind of ROI or a return on calories, kind of calculus or heuristic you think through, it's like, okay, well, what is it going to cost me to put this layer of abstraction above the code that I'm writing now, uh, in anticipating kind of future needs. If the cost of fixing, uh, or doing under engineering right now. Uh, we'll trend towards zero that says, okay, well, I don't have to get it right right now because even if I get it wrong, I'll run the thing for six hours instead of 60 minutes or whatever. It doesn't really matter, right? Like, because that's going to trend towards zero to be able, the ability to refactor a code. Um, and because we're going to not that long from now, we're going to have, you know, large code bases be able to exist, uh, you know, as, as context, uh, for a code generation or a code refactoring, uh, model. So I think it's going to make it, uh, make the case for under engineering, uh, even stronger. Which is why I take on that cost. You just pay the interest when you get there, it's not, um, just go on with your life vibe coded and, uh, come back when you need to. Yeah.Alessio [00:23:18]: Sometimes I feel like there's no decision-making in some things like, uh, today I built a autosave for like our internal notes platform and I literally just ask them cursor. Can you add autosave? Yeah. I don't know if it's over under engineer. Yep. I just vibe coded it. Yep. And I feel like at some point we're going to get to the point where the models kindDharmesh [00:23:36]: of decide where the right line is, but this is where the, like the, in my mind, the danger is, right? So there's two sides to this. One is the cost of kind of development and coding and things like that stuff that, you know, we talk about. But then like in your example, you know, one of the risks that we have is that because adding a feature, uh, like a save or whatever the feature might be to a product as that price tends towards zero, are we going to be less discriminant about what features we add as a result of making more product products more complicated, which has a negative impact on the user and navigate negative impact on the business. Um, and so that's the thing I worry about if it starts to become too easy, are we going to be. Too promiscuous in our, uh, kind of extension, adding product extensions and things like that. It's like, ah, why not add X, Y, Z or whatever back then it was like, oh, we only have so many engineering hours or story points or however you measure things. Uh, that least kept us in check a little bit. Yeah.Alessio [00:24:22]: And then over engineering, you're like, yeah, it's kind of like you're putting that on yourself. Yeah. Like now it's like the models don't understand that if they add too much complexity, it's going to come back to bite them later. Yep. So they just do whatever they want to do. Yeah. And I'm curious where in the workflow that's going to be, where it's like, Hey, this is like the amount of complexity and over-engineering you can do before you got to ask me if we should actually do it versus like do something else.Dharmesh [00:24:45]: So you know, we've already, let's like, we're leaving this, uh, in the code generation world, this kind of compressed, um, cycle time. Right. It's like, okay, we went from auto-complete, uh, in the GitHub co-pilot to like, oh, finish this particular thing and hit tab to a, oh, I sort of know your file or whatever. I can write out a full function to you to now I can like hold a bunch of the context in my head. Uh, so we can do app generation, which we have now with lovable and bolt and repletage. Yeah. Association and other things. So then the question is, okay, well, where does it naturally go from here? So we're going to generate products. Make sense. We might be able to generate platforms as though I want a platform for ERP that does this, whatever. And that includes the API's includes the product and the UI, and all the things that make for a platform. There's no nothing that says we would stop like, okay, can you generate an entire software company someday? Right. Uh, with the platform and the monetization and the go-to-market and the whatever. And you know, that that's interesting to me in terms of, uh, you know, what, when you take it to almost ludicrous levels. of abstract.swyx [00:25:39]: It's like, okay, turn it to 11. You mentioned vibe coding, so I have to, this is a blog post I haven't written, but I'm kind of exploring it. Is the junior engineer dead?Dharmesh [00:25:49]: I don't think so. I think what will happen is that the junior engineer will be able to, if all they're bringing to the table is the fact that they are a junior engineer, then yes, they're likely dead. But hopefully if they can communicate with carbon-based life forms, they can interact with product, if they're willing to talk to customers, they can take their kind of basic understanding of engineering and how kind of software works. I think that has value. So I have a 14-year-old right now who's taking Python programming class, and some people ask me, it's like, why is he learning coding? And my answer is, is because it's not about the syntax, it's not about the coding. What he's learning is like the fundamental thing of like how things work. And there's value in that. I think there's going to be timeless value in systems thinking and abstractions and what that means. And whether functions manifested as math, which he's going to get exposed to regardless, or there are some core primitives to the universe, I think, that the more you understand them, those are what I would kind of think of as like really large dots in your life that will have a higher gravitational pull and value to them that you'll then be able to. So I want him to collect those dots, and he's not resisting. So it's like, okay, while he's still listening to me, I'm going to have him do things that I think will be useful.swyx [00:26:59]: You know, part of one of the pitches that I evaluated for AI engineer is a term. And the term is that maybe the traditional interview path or career path of software engineer goes away, which is because what's the point of lead code? Yeah. And, you know, it actually matters more that you know how to work with AI and to implement the things that you want. Yep.Dharmesh [00:27:16]: That's one of the like interesting things that's happened with generative AI. You know, you go from machine learning and the models and just that underlying form, which is like true engineering, right? Like the actual, what I call real engineering. I don't think of myself as a real engineer, actually. I'm a developer. But now with generative AI. We call it AI and it's obviously got its roots in machine learning, but it just feels like fundamentally different to me. Like you have the vibe. It's like, okay, well, this is just a whole different approach to software development to so many different things. And so I'm wondering now, it's like an AI engineer is like, if you were like to draw the Venn diagram, it's interesting because the cross between like AI things, generative AI and what the tools are capable of, what the models do, and this whole new kind of body of knowledge that we're still building out, it's still very young, intersected with kind of classic engineering, software engineering. Yeah.swyx [00:28:04]: I just described the overlap as it separates out eventually until it's its own thing, but it's starting out as a software. Yeah.Alessio [00:28:11]: That makes sense. So to close the vibe coding loop, the other big hype now is MCPs. Obviously, I would say Cloud Desktop and Cursor are like the two main drivers of MCP usage. I would say my favorite is the Sentry MCP. I can pull in errors and then you can just put the context in Cursor. How do you think about that abstraction layer? Does it feel... Does it feel almost too magical in a way? Do you think it's like you get enough? Because you don't really see how the server itself is then kind of like repackaging theDharmesh [00:28:41]: information for you? I think MCP as a standard is one of the better things that's happened in the world of AI because a standard needed to exist and absent a standard, there was a set of things that just weren't possible. Now, we can argue whether it's the best possible manifestation of a standard or not. Does it do too much? Does it do too little? I get that, but it's just simple enough to both be useful and unobtrusive. It's understandable and adoptable by mere mortals, right? It's not overly complicated. You know, a reasonable engineer can put a stand up an MCP server relatively easily. The thing that has me excited about it is like, so I'm a big believer in multi-agent systems. And so that's going back to our kind of this idea of an atomic agent. So imagine the MCP server, like obviously it calls tools, but the way I think about it, so I'm working on my current passion project is agent.ai. And we'll talk more about that in a little bit. More about the, I think we should, because I think it's interesting not to promote the project at all, but there's some interesting ideas in there. One of which is around, we're going to need a mechanism for, if agents are going to collaborate and be able to delegate, there's going to need to be some form of discovery and we're going to need some standard way. It's like, okay, well, I just need to know what this thing over here is capable of. We're going to need a registry, which Anthropic's working on. I'm sure others will and have been doing directories of, and there's going to be a standard around that too. How do you build out a directory of MCP servers? I think that's going to unlock so many things just because, and we're already starting to see it. So I think MCP or something like it is going to be the next major unlock because it allows systems that don't know about each other, don't need to, it's that kind of decoupling of like Sentry and whatever tools someone else was building. And it's not just about, you know, Cloud Desktop or things like, even on the client side, I think we're going to see very interesting consumers of MCP, MCP clients versus just the chat body kind of things. Like, you know, Cloud Desktop and Cursor and things like that. But yeah, I'm very excited about MCP in that general direction.swyx [00:30:39]: I think the typical cynical developer take, it's like, we have OpenAPI. Yeah. What's the new thing? I don't know if you have a, do you have a quick MCP versus everything else? Yeah.Dharmesh [00:30:49]: So it's, so I like OpenAPI, right? So just a descriptive thing. It's OpenAPI. OpenAPI. Yes, that's what I meant. So it's basically a self-documenting thing. We can do machine-generated, lots of things from that output. It's a structured definition of an API. I get that, love it. But MCPs sort of are kind of use case specific. They're perfect for exactly what we're trying to use them for around LLMs in terms of discovery. It's like, okay, I don't necessarily need to know kind of all this detail. And so right now we have, we'll talk more about like MCP server implementations, but We will? I think, I don't know. Maybe we won't. At least it's in my head. It's like a back processor. But I do think MCP adds value above OpenAPI. It's, yeah, just because it solves this particular thing. And if we had come to the world, which we have, like, it's like, hey, we already have OpenAPI. It's like, if that were good enough for the universe, the universe would have adopted it already. There's a reason why MCP is taking office because marginally adds something that was missing before and doesn't go too far. And so that's why the kind of rate of adoption, you folks have written about this and talked about it. Yeah, why MCP won. Yeah. And it won because the universe decided that this was useful and maybe it gets supplanted by something else. Yeah. And maybe we discover, oh, maybe OpenAPI was good enough the whole time. I doubt that.swyx [00:32:09]: The meta lesson, this is, I mean, he's an investor in DevTools companies. I work in developer experience at DevRel in DevTools companies. Yep. Everyone wants to own the standard. Yeah. I'm sure you guys have tried to launch your own standards. Actually, it's Houseplant known for a standard, you know, obviously inbound marketing. But is there a standard or protocol that you ever tried to push? No.Dharmesh [00:32:30]: And there's a reason for this. Yeah. Is that? And I don't mean, need to mean, speak for the people of HubSpot, but I personally. You kind of do. I'm not smart enough. That's not the, like, I think I have a. You're smart. Not enough for that. I'm much better off understanding the standards that are out there. And I'm more on the composability side. Let's, like, take the pieces of technology that exist out there, combine them in creative, unique ways. And I like to consume standards. I don't like to, and that's not that I don't like to create them. I just don't think I have the, both the raw wattage or the credibility. It's like, okay, well, who the heck is Dharmesh, and why should we adopt a standard he created?swyx [00:33:07]: Yeah, I mean, there are people who don't monetize standards, like OpenTelemetry is a big standard, and LightStep never capitalized on that.Dharmesh [00:33:15]: So, okay, so if I were to do a standard, there's two things that have been in my head in the past. I was one around, a very, very basic one around, I don't even have the domain, I have a domain for everything, for open marketing. Because the issue we had in HubSpot grew up in the marketing space. There we go. There was no standard around data formats and things like that. It doesn't go anywhere. But the other one, and I did not mean to go here, but I'm going to go here. It's called OpenGraph. I know the term was already taken, but it hasn't been used for like 15 years now for its original purpose. But what I think should exist in the world is right now, our information, all of us, nodes are in the social graph at Meta or the professional graph at LinkedIn. Both of which are actually relatively closed in actually very annoying ways. Like very, very closed, right? Especially LinkedIn. Especially LinkedIn. I personally believe that if it's my data, and if I would get utility out of it being open, I should be able to make my data open or publish it in whatever forms that I choose, as long as I have control over it as opt-in. So the idea is around OpenGraph that says, here's a standard, here's a way to publish it. I should be able to go to OpenGraph.org slash Dharmesh dot JSON and get it back. And it's like, here's your stuff, right? And I can choose along the way and people can write to it and I can prove. And there can be an entire system. And if I were to do that, I would do it as a... Like a public benefit, non-profit-y kind of thing, as this is a contribution to society. I wouldn't try to commercialize that. Have you looked at AdProto? What's that? AdProto.swyx [00:34:43]: It's the protocol behind Blue Sky. Okay. My good friend, Dan Abramov, who was the face of React for many, many years, now works there. And he actually did a talk that I can send you, which basically kind of tries to articulate what you just said. But he does, he loves doing these like really great analogies, which I think you'll like. Like, you know, a lot of our data is behind a handle, behind a domain. Yep. So he's like, all right, what if we flip that? What if it was like our handle and then the domain? Yep. So, and that's really like your data should belong to you. Yep. And I should not have to wait 30 days for my Twitter data to export. Yep.Dharmesh [00:35:19]: you should be able to at least be able to automate it or do like, yes, I should be able to plug it into an agentic thing. Yeah. Yes. I think we're... Because so much of our data is... Locked up. I think the trick here isn't that standard. It is getting the normies to care.swyx [00:35:37]: Yeah. Because normies don't care.Dharmesh [00:35:38]: That's true. But building on that, normies don't care. So, you know, privacy is a really hot topic and an easy word to use, but it's not a binary thing. Like there are use cases where, and we make these choices all the time, that I will trade, not all privacy, but I will trade some privacy for some productivity gain or some benefit to me that says, oh, I don't care about that particular data being online if it gives me this in return, or I don't mind sharing this information with this company.Alessio [00:36:02]: If I'm getting, you know, this in return, but that sort of should be my option. I think now with computer use, you can actually automate some of the exports. Yes. Like something we've been doing internally is like everybody exports their LinkedIn connections. Yep. And then internally, we kind of merge them together to see how we can connect our companies to customers or things like that.Dharmesh [00:36:21]: And not to pick on LinkedIn, but since we're talking about it, but they feel strongly enough on the, you know, do not take LinkedIn data that they will block even browser use kind of things or whatever. They go to great, great lengths, even to see patterns of usage. And it says, oh, there's no way you could have, you know, gotten that particular thing or whatever without, and it's, so it's, there's...swyx [00:36:42]: Wasn't there a Supreme Court case that they lost? Yeah.Dharmesh [00:36:45]: So the one they lost was around someone that was scraping public data that was on the public internet. And that particular company had not signed any terms of service or whatever. It's like, oh, I'm just taking data that's on, there was no, and so that's why they won. But now, you know, the question is around, can LinkedIn... I think they can. Like, when you use, as a user, you use LinkedIn, you are signing up for their terms of service. And if they say, well, this kind of use of your LinkedIn account that violates our terms of service, they can shut your account down, right? They can. And they, yeah, so, you know, we don't need to make this a discussion. By the way, I love the company, don't get me wrong. I'm an avid user of the product. You know, I've got... Yeah, I mean, you've got over a million followers on LinkedIn, I think. Yeah, I do. And I've known people there for a long, long time, right? And I have lots of respect. And I understand even where the mindset originally came from of this kind of members-first approach to, you know, a privacy-first. I sort of get that. But sometimes you sort of have to wonder, it's like, okay, well, that was 15, 20 years ago. There's likely some controlled ways to expose some data on some member's behalf and not just completely be a binary. It's like, no, thou shalt not have the data.swyx [00:37:54]: Well, just pay for sales navigator.Alessio [00:37:57]: Before we move to the next layer of instruction, anything else on MCP you mentioned? Let's move back and then I'll tie it back to MCPs.Dharmesh [00:38:05]: So I think the... Open this with agent. Okay, so I'll start with... Here's my kind of running thesis, is that as AI and agents evolve, which they're doing very, very quickly, we're going to look at them more and more. I don't like to anthropomorphize. We'll talk about why this is not that. Less as just like raw tools and more like teammates. They'll still be software. They should self-disclose as being software. I'm totally cool with that. But I think what's going to happen is that in the same way you might collaborate with a team member on Slack or Teams or whatever you use, you can imagine a series of agents that do specific things just like a team member might do, that you can delegate things to. You can collaborate. You can say, hey, can you take a look at this? Can you proofread that? Can you try this? You can... Whatever it happens to be. So I think it is... I will go so far as to say it's inevitable that we're going to have hybrid teams someday. And what I mean by hybrid teams... So back in the day, hybrid teams were, oh, well, you have some full-time employees and some contractors. Then it was like hybrid teams are some people that are in the office and some that are remote. That's the kind of form of hybrid. The next form of hybrid is like the carbon-based life forms and agents and AI and some form of software. So let's say we temporarily stipulate that I'm right about that over some time horizon that eventually we're going to have these kind of digitally hybrid teams. So if that's true, then the question you sort of ask yourself is that then what needs to exist in order for us to get the full value of that new model? It's like, okay, well... You sort of need to... It's like, okay, well, how do I... If I'm building a digital team, like, how do I... Just in the same way, if I'm interviewing for an engineer or a designer or a PM, whatever, it's like, well, that's why we have professional networks, right? It's like, oh, they have a presence on likely LinkedIn. I can go through that semi-structured, structured form, and I can see the experience of whatever, you know, self-disclosed. But, okay, well, agents are going to need that someday. And so I'm like, okay, well, this seems like a thread that's worth pulling on. That says, okay. So I... So agent.ai is out there. And it's LinkedIn for agents. It's LinkedIn for agents. It's a professional network for agents. And the more I pull on that thread, it's like, okay, well, if that's true, like, what happens, right? It's like, oh, well, they have a profile just like anyone else, just like a human would. It's going to be a graph underneath, just like a professional network would be. It's just that... And you can have its, you know, connections and follows, and agents should be able to post. That's maybe how they do release notes. Like, oh, I have this new version. Whatever they decide to post, it should just be able to... Behave as a node on the network of a professional network. As it turns out, the more I think about that and pull on that thread, the more and more things, like, start to make sense to me. So it may be more than just a pure professional network. So my original thought was, okay, well, it's a professional network and agents as they exist out there, which I think there's going to be more and more of, will kind of exist on this network and have the profile. But then, and this is always dangerous, I'm like, okay, I want to see a world where thousands of agents are out there in order for the... Because those digital employees, the digital workers don't exist yet in any meaningful way. And so then I'm like, oh, can I make that easier for, like... And so I have, as one does, it's like, oh, I'll build a low-code platform for building agents. How hard could that be, right? Like, very hard, as it turns out. But it's been fun. So now, agent.ai has 1.3 million users. 3,000 people have actually, you know, built some variation of an agent, sometimes just for their own personal productivity. About 1,000 of which have been published. And the reason this comes back to MCP for me, so imagine that and other networks, since I know agent.ai. So right now, we have an MCP server for agent.ai that exposes all the internally built agents that we have that do, like, super useful things. Like, you know, I have access to a Twitter API that I can subsidize the cost. And I can say, you know, if you're looking to build something for social media, these kinds of things, with a single API key, and it's all completely free right now, I'm funding it. That's a useful way for it to work. And then we have a developer to say, oh, I have this idea. I don't have to worry about open AI. I don't have to worry about, now, you know, this particular model is better. It has access to all the models with one key. And we proxy it kind of behind the scenes. And then expose it. So then we get this kind of community effect, right? That says, oh, well, someone else may have built an agent to do X. Like, I have an agent right now that I built for myself to do domain valuation for website domains because I'm obsessed with domains, right? And, like, there's no efficient market for domains. There's no Zillow for domains right now that tells you, oh, here are what houses in your neighborhood sold for. It's like, well, why doesn't that exist? We should be able to solve that problem. And, yes, you're still guessing. Fine. There should be some simple heuristic. So I built that. It's like, okay, well, let me go look for past transactions. You say, okay, I'm going to type in agent.ai, agent.com, whatever domain. What's it actually worth? I'm looking at buying it. It can go and say, oh, which is what it does. It's like, I'm going to go look at are there any published domain transactions recently that are similar, either use the same word, same top-level domain, whatever it is. And it comes back with an approximate value, and it comes back with its kind of rationale for why it picked the value and comparable transactions. Oh, by the way, this domain sold for published. Okay. So that agent now, let's say, existed on the web, on agent.ai. Then imagine someone else says, oh, you know, I want to build a brand-building agent for startups and entrepreneurs to come up with names for their startup. Like a common problem, every startup is like, ah, I don't know what to call it. And so they type in five random words that kind of define whatever their startup is. And you can do all manner of things, one of which is like, oh, well, I need to find the domain for it. What are possible choices? Now it's like, okay, well, it would be nice to know if there's an aftermarket price for it, if it's listed for sale. Awesome. Then imagine calling this valuation agent. It's like, okay, well, I want to find where the arbitrage is, where the agent valuation tool says this thing is worth $25,000. It's listed on GoDaddy for $5,000. It's close enough. Let's go do that. Right? And that's a kind of composition use case that in my future state. Thousands of agents on the network, all discoverable through something like MCP. And then you as a developer of agents have access to all these kind of Lego building blocks based on what you're trying to solve. Then you blend in orchestration, which is getting better and better with the reasoning models now. Just describe the problem that you have. Now, the next layer that we're all contending with is that how many tools can you actually give an LLM before the LLM breaks? That number used to be like 15 or 20 before you kind of started to vary dramatically. And so that's the thing I'm thinking about now. It's like, okay, if I want to... If I want to expose 1,000 of these agents to a given LLM, obviously I can't give it all 1,000. Is there some intermediate layer that says, based on your prompt, I'm going to make a best guess at which agents might be able to be helpful for this particular thing? Yeah.Alessio [00:44:37]: Yeah, like RAG for tools. Yep. I did build the Latent Space Researcher on agent.ai. Okay. Nice. Yeah, that seems like, you know, then there's going to be a Latent Space Scheduler. And then once I schedule a research, you know, and you build all of these things. By the way, my apologies for the user experience. You realize I'm an engineer. It's pretty good.swyx [00:44:56]: I think it's a normie-friendly thing. Yeah. That's your magic. HubSpot does the same thing.Alessio [00:45:01]: Yeah, just to like quickly run through it. You can basically create all these different steps. And these steps are like, you know, static versus like variable-driven things. How did you decide between this kind of like low-code-ish versus doing, you know, low-code with code backend versus like not exposing that at all? Any fun design decisions? Yeah. And this is, I think...Dharmesh [00:45:22]: I think lots of people are likely sitting in exactly my position right now, coming through the choosing between deterministic. Like if you're like in a business or building, you know, some sort of agentic thing, do you decide to do a deterministic thing? Or do you go non-deterministic and just let the alum handle it, right, with the reasoning models? The original idea and the reason I took the low-code stepwise, a very deterministic approach. A, the reasoning models did not exist at that time. That's thing number one. Thing number two is if you can get... If you know in your head... If you know in your head what the actual steps are to accomplish whatever goal, why would you leave that to chance? There's no upside. There's literally no upside. Just tell me, like, what steps do you need executed? So right now what I'm playing with... So one thing we haven't talked about yet, and people don't talk about UI and agents. Right now, the primary interaction model... Or they don't talk enough about it. I know some people have. But it's like, okay, so we're used to the chatbot back and forth. Fine. I get that. But I think we're going to move to a blend of... Some of those things are going to be synchronous as they are now. But some are going to be... Some are going to be async. It's just going to put it in a queue, just like... And this goes back to my... Man, I talk fast. But I have this... I only have one other speed. It's even faster. So imagine it's like if you're working... So back to my, oh, we're going to have these hybrid digital teams. Like, you would not go to a co-worker and say, I'm going to ask you to do this thing, and then sit there and wait for them to go do it. Like, that's not how the world works. So it's nice to be able to just, like, hand something off to someone. It's like, okay, well, maybe I expect a response in an hour or a day or something like that.Dharmesh [00:46:52]: In terms of when things need to happen. So the UI around agents. So if you look at the output of agent.ai agents right now, they are the simplest possible manifestation of a UI, right? That says, oh, we have inputs of, like, four different types. Like, we've got a dropdown, we've got multi-select, all the things. It's like back in HTML, the original HTML 1.0 days, right? Like, you're the smallest possible set of primitives for a UI. And it just says, okay, because we need to collect some information from the user, and then we go do steps and do things. And generate some output in HTML or markup are the two primary examples. So the thing I've been asking myself, if I keep going down that path. So people ask me, I get requests all the time. It's like, oh, can you make the UI sort of boring? I need to be able to do this, right? And if I keep pulling on that, it's like, okay, well, now I've built an entire UI builder thing. Where does this end? And so I think the right answer, and this is what I'm going to be backcoding once I get done here, is around injecting a code generation UI generation into, the agent.ai flow, right? As a builder, you're like, okay, I'm going to describe the thing that I want, much like you would do in a vibe coding world. But instead of generating the entire app, it's going to generate the UI that exists at some point in either that deterministic flow or something like that. It says, oh, here's the thing I'm trying to do. Go generate the UI for me. And I can go through some iterations. And what I think of it as a, so it's like, I'm going to generate the code, generate the code, tweak it, go through this kind of prompt style, like we do with vibe coding now. And at some point, I'm going to be happy with it. And I'm going to hit save. And that's going to become the action in that particular step. It's like a caching of the generated code that I can then, like incur any inference time costs. It's just the actual code at that point.Alessio [00:48:29]: Yeah, I invested in a company called E2B, which does code sandbox. And they powered the LM arena web arena. So it's basically the, just like you do LMS, like text to text, they do the same for like UI generation. So if you're asking a model, how do you do it? But yeah, I think that's kind of where.Dharmesh [00:48:45]: That's the thing I'm really fascinated by. So the early LLM, you know, we're understandably, but laughably bad at simple arithmetic, right? That's the thing like my wife, Normies would ask us, like, you call this AI, like it can't, my son would be like, it's just stupid. It can't even do like simple arithmetic. And then like we've discovered over time that, and there's a reason for this, right? It's like, it's a large, there's, you know, the word language is in there for a reason in terms of what it's been trained on. It's not meant to do math, but now it's like, okay, well, the fact that it has access to a Python interpreter that I can actually call at runtime, that solves an entire body of problems that it wasn't trained to do. And it's basically a form of delegation. And so the thought that's kind of rattling around in my head is that that's great. So it's, it's like took the arithmetic problem and took it first. Now, like anything that's solvable through a relatively concrete Python program, it's able to do a bunch of things that I couldn't do before. Can we get to the same place with UI? I don't know what the future of UI looks like in a agentic AI world, but maybe let the LLM handle it, but not in the classic sense. Maybe it generates it on the fly, or maybe we go through some iterations and hit cache or something like that. So it's a little bit more predictable. Uh, I don't know, but yeah.Alessio [00:49:48]: And especially when is the human supposed to intervene? So, especially if you're composing them, most of them should not have a UI because then they're just web hooking to somewhere else. I just want to touch back. I don't know if you have more comments on this.swyx [00:50:01]: I was just going to ask when you, you said you got, you're going to go back to code. What

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 1629: Derek Sivers emphasizes that waiting for the perfect moment or blindly following advice can both hold you back. Progress comes from taking action now and thinking for yourself instead of deferring decisions to others. True growth happens when you trust your own judgment, start where you are, and learn through experience. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/startnow & https://sive.rs/abdicate Quotes to ponder: "When you abdicate responsibility, you let someone else decide your fate." "Advice is useful, but only if you filter it through your own judgment." "Starting now is always better than waiting for someday." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 1629: Derek Sivers emphasizes that waiting for the perfect moment or blindly following advice can both hold you back. Progress comes from taking action now and thinking for yourself instead of deferring decisions to others. True growth happens when you trust your own judgment, start where you are, and learn through experience. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/startnow & https://sive.rs/abdicate Quotes to ponder: "When you abdicate responsibility, you let someone else decide your fate." "Advice is useful, but only if you filter it through your own judgment." "Starting now is always better than waiting for someday." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Greg speaks with Derek Sivers, an entrepreneur and thinker, exploring the power of perspective in shaping life's outcomes. They explore the concept of "useful, not true," emphasizing the flexibility and mindset required to break away from limiting narratives. Sivers shares personal insights on journaling as a tool for processing thoughts and decision-making, highlighting its role in enhancing clarity and agency. The conversation also touches on using AI for personal growth and the importance of understanding diverse worldviews to stretch and evolve one's thinking. Buy Derek's Book "Useful Not True" Visit Derek's Website Reach out to Derek Join my weekly newsletter. Learn more about my books and courses. Join The Essentialism Academy. Follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, X, Facebook, and YouTube.

In this interview, I'm joined by Derek Sivers. Derek is the Founder of CD Baby — a company he sold for $22 million, and then gave pretty much everything to charity. He has written multiple bestselling books, given TED talks which have reached millions, and been a circus performer for 10 years. There have been few people who have had a bigger positive impact on my thinking than Derek, so it was a real treat to sit down with him for an hour and have this conversation. Expect to learn: — The connection between your beliefs, your emotions, and your actions — How Derek sold his company for $22 million and then instantly gave it all away to charity — His unconventional approach to getting advice from mentors — Why Derek has journalled every day for the past 13 years and why this is the “single most useful thing” he does. And more. You can learn more about Derek's work, books, and philosophy at https://sive.rs. --- Derek Sivers graduated in 1990 from Berklee, where he majored in professional music. He entered as a guitarist and came out a self-proclaimed “everything guy” after studying voice, composition, piano, songwriting, music synthesis, and production. Sivers is best known as the founder of CD Baby(Opens in a new window), the largest online distribution company for independent music. After years of touring, recording, and writing for TV projects, he started CD Baby from his bedroom—almost by accident. When he obtained a merchant account to sell his CDs online (not an easy task in the '90s), musician friends began asking if he could sell their CDs. Soon he was getting calls from strangers, and the foundation for a business was laid. Sivers launched CD Baby in 1998 with a musician-centric ideology that sought to maximize musicians' profits rather than minimize them for company gain. In 2003, Sivers won the World Technology Award and was described by Esquire Magazine as “one of the last music-business folk heroes.” In keeping with his philanthropic ethos, Sivers sold CD Baby in 2008 and gave the proceeds to a charitable trust for music education. In 2011, Sivers published Anything You Want(Opens in a new window), a book chronicling his challenges and triumphs founding, building, and selling CD Baby. In 2013, Sivers launched Wood Egg(Opens in a new window), which publishes guides about how to build companies in Asia. He is a frequent speaker at the TED Conference, with over 5 million views of his talks. --- Interview Links: — Derek's website - https://sive.rs Interview Links: — Derek's website - https://sive.rs — Derek's new book - https://sive.rs/u — Derek's new book (Amazon Link) - https://amzn.to/41HkBPz

Today I'm joined by Haley from the Kit team for a Q&A where we answer your questions about building a creator business that lasts.We explore everything from why major celebrities are suddenly launching newsletters to the practical choices creators face - like when to stay solo versus build a team, or whether to focus on high-ticket or low-ticket offers. Plus, we share real examples from both sides of these decisions.You'll learn how to make strategic choices that fit your goals, build sustainable systems that scale, and maintain balance while growing your business.Timestamps:00:00 - Introduction02:02 - The Truth About Working with Matthew McConaughey05:07 - Why Everyone is Launching a Newsletter (And Should You?)12:13 - Which Celebrities Should Start a Newsletter?15:46 - How Do You Balance Creativity With Execution?19:42 - Should Entrepreneurs Build a Personal Brand?30:59 - How Do Successful Creators Prioritize Self-Care?37:27 - High-Ticket vs. Low-Ticket Offers: Which Makes More Money?42:31 - How Far Can You Grow as a Solo Entrepreneur?49:00 - Are You a Creator, a Coder, or a CEO?53:34 - Should You Focus More on Product Creation or Marketing?57:24 - How to Stay Productive Without Burning Out01:01:12 - How Does Nathan Get More Done Than Most People?01:05:00 - Closing ThoughtsIf you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe, share it with your friends, and leave us a review. We read every single one.Learn more about The Nathan Barry Show: https://nathanbarry.com/show Follow Nathan:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nathanbarry LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathanbarry X: https://twitter.com/nathanbarry YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thenathanbarryshow Website: https://nathanbarry.com Follow Haley:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/haleyjaniLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/haley-janicekX: https://twitter.com/haleyjanicekFeatured in this episode:Kit: https://kit.comBrian Feroldi: https://www.brianferoldi.com/Matthew McConaughey's Newsletter: https://lyricsoflivin.com/Hasan Minhaj: https://www.hasanminhaj.com/Morgan Freeman: https://www.instagram.com/morganfreeman/Lil Jon's Newsletter: https://liljon.kit.com/newsletter/Tom Brady's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@tombrady/Tom Brady's Newsletter: https://tombrady.com/Cristiano Ronaldo's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@cristiano/The Armchair Expert: https://armchairexpertpod.com/Damian Lillard: https://www.instagram.com/damianlillard/Jo Franco: https://www.instagram.com/jo_franco/Caitlin Clark: https://www.instagram.com/caitlinclark22/Travis Kelce: https://www.instagram.com/killatrav/Jason Kelce: https://www.instagram.com/jason.kelce/Kylie Kelce: https://www.instagram.com/kykelce/Dermot Kennedy: https://www.dermotkennedy.com/Codie Sanchez: https://codiesanchez.com/Justin Welsh: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinwelsh/Danny Iny: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dannyiny/Jed Eglington Episode: https://nathanbarry.com/60/Sahil Bloom: https://www.sahilbloom.com/James Clear: https://jamesclear.com/Paperboy: https://www.paperboystudios.co/Derek Sivers: https://sive.rs/

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 1605: Derek Sivers challenges the notion that relentless self-improvement is always beneficial, arguing that constant growth can become an addiction rather than a means to happiness. He contrasts this with the importance of being present, embracing who you are now instead of endlessly chasing who you could be. By shifting focus from perpetual self-betterment to deep self-acceptance, he suggests a path to genuine fulfillment. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/ayw7 & https://sive.rs/dbt Quotes to ponder: "Self-improvement is a slippery slope. It starts as a way to get better, but it can become an endless treadmill of never feeling good enough." "Instead of always trying to be better, try being. Not becoming. Just being." "If you stop improving, who are you? If you stop trying to be someone else, what's left?" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 1605: Derek Sivers challenges the notion that relentless self-improvement is always beneficial, arguing that constant growth can become an addiction rather than a means to happiness. He contrasts this with the importance of being present, embracing who you are now instead of endlessly chasing who you could be. By shifting focus from perpetual self-betterment to deep self-acceptance, he suggests a path to genuine fulfillment. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/ayw7 & https://sive.rs/dbt Quotes to ponder: "Self-improvement is a slippery slope. It starts as a way to get better, but it can become an endless treadmill of never feeling good enough." "Instead of always trying to be better, try being. Not becoming. Just being." "If you stop improving, who are you? If you stop trying to be someone else, what's left?" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Send us a textIn today's episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Derek Sivers, a remarkable individual whose openness to new experiences has profoundly shaped both his personal and professional journey. What I appreciate the most about Derek is how he's taken important life's lessons and transformed them into wisdom about the things that truly matter.Derek's passion for learning is infectious, but what's truly fascinating is his refusal to be boxed into any single worldview. This philosophy has served him well throughout his diverse career as an entrepreneur, writer, and musician. Many know him as the founder of CD Baby, which he started in 1998. The company grew to become the largest seller of independent music online, generating over $100 million in sales before Derek sold it in 2008 for $22 million. In a remarkable act of generosity, he donated the entire proceeds to a charitable trust for music education.But Derek's impact extends far beyond CD Baby. Through his blog and five books, he's become known for his concise, thought-provoking writing on business, life, and decision-making. In our conversation, we dive deep into his two latest works. The first, "HOW TO LIVE," presents 27 conflicting approaches to life, each making a compelling case for a different way of living. Rather than providing easy answers, Derek challenges readers to find their own path based on their unique circumstances and perspectives.We also explore his newest book, "Useful NOT True," which examines the powerful concept of reframing. Derek makes a fascinating case that success begins with perspective, which then shapes our strategy and actions. He argues that while our initial thoughts might feel true, they're often obstacles we need to overcome. By recognizing that no single perspective holds absolute truth, we can make more informed choices in our lives.Many of you might know Derek from his three compelling TED Talks, including my personal favorite about the dancing guy on a hill – a brilliant metaphor for how movements begin. Our conversation weaves through various aspects of his life, from his early days to his writing, but what really resonated with me was our discussion about the importance of changing our minds. Derek believes that what we consider absolute truths can actually restrict our growth and shut us off from new learning experiences.His insights about the power of changing one's mind have particularly influenced my own thinking about life and work, making it one of the highlights of our conversation. I genuinely enjoyed my time with Derek, and I believe this discussion will offer you fresh perspectives on your own life, work, and what matters most to you.Connect with Derek:WebsiteHis books can be found below:Useful Not True How to LiveHell Yeah or NoYour Music and PeopleAnything You WantAs well you can see any of Derek's Ted Talks below: Derek's Ted Talks

Derek Sivers is a TED speaker, an essayist, a businessman, a musician, one of my favorite thinkers on the planet, and the author of many books including his most recent, Useful Not True: Whatever Works For You.------------Book Dan to do an interview or a meeting------------Keep Talking SubstackSpotifyApple PodcastsSocial media and all episodes------------Support via VenmoSupport on SubstackSupport on Patreon------------(00:00) Intro(01:00) Your actions reveal your values(03:25) Obvious to you, amazing to someone else(05:19) How Derek thinks about money(13:03) Deep happy vs. shallow happy(21:00) Following an innate drive and desire(24:07) 18 months of feeling adrift(30:04) To find direction: read a lot and wait for energy(31:18) The power of heroes and anti-heroes(36:05) Egotists and hedonists(40:00) Changing your mind and keeping your identity small(44:37) Think of yourself as a student, not a preacher(47:42) Personal growth over wealth growth(53:00) Prioritizing openness(56:59) What lifestyles or beliefs is Derek against?(01:04:50) The downside of optimism in Derek's personal life(01:14:24) Dating, marriage, and the role of women in Derek's life(01:23:55) How to save a life with $2,000(01:27:50) Derek's thoughts on philanthropy(01:33:54) "Useful Not True"(01:38:39) A prequel to "How To Live"(01:41:13) "Useful Not True": the truth of many answers and perspectives

Built Not Born Podcast with Derek Sivers

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 1588: Derek Sivers contrasts passive creation with purposeful artistry, while Rayko exemplifies this mindset by training for music like an athlete. Success isn't magic; it's consistency, deep work, and commitment to mastery. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/cdbf & https://sive.rs/rayko Quotes to ponder: "Rayko treats music the way an athlete treats their sport." "She doesn't wait for inspiration. She trains like a professional." "Creation means you are bringing something into existence that wouldn't exist without you." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 1588: Derek Sivers contrasts passive creation with purposeful artistry, while Rayko exemplifies this mindset by training for music like an athlete. Success isn't magic; it's consistency, deep work, and commitment to mastery. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/cdbf & https://sive.rs/rayko Quotes to ponder: "Rayko treats music the way an athlete treats their sport." "She doesn't wait for inspiration. She trains like a professional." "Creation means you are bringing something into existence that wouldn't exist without you." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3480: Derek Sivers shares insights on the power of relaxation, revealing how a calm mind leads to better decisions, creativity, and happiness. He also explores how small, consistent actions shape identity, emphasizing that who we become is determined by our daily choices rather than grand gestures. By embracing both concepts, we can cultivate a more intentional and fulfilling life. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sivers.org/relax & https://sivers.org/small-actions-changing-identity Quotes to ponder: "Relaxed is smart. Tense is dumb." "You don't change yourself by thinking. You change yourself by doing." "Your actions are votes for the kind of person you want to be." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3480: Derek Sivers shares insights on the power of relaxation, revealing how a calm mind leads to better decisions, creativity, and happiness. He also explores how small, consistent actions shape identity, emphasizing that who we become is determined by our daily choices rather than grand gestures. By embracing both concepts, we can cultivate a more intentional and fulfilling life. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sivers.org/relax & https://sivers.org/small-actions-changing-identity Quotes to ponder: "Relaxed is smart. Tense is dumb." "You don't change yourself by thinking. You change yourself by doing." "Your actions are votes for the kind of person you want to be." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3480: Derek Sivers shares insights on the power of relaxation, revealing how a calm mind leads to better decisions, creativity, and happiness. He also explores how small, consistent actions shape identity, emphasizing that who we become is determined by our daily choices rather than grand gestures. By embracing both concepts, we can cultivate a more intentional and fulfilling life. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sivers.org/relax & https://sivers.org/small-actions-changing-identity Quotes to ponder: "Relaxed is smart. Tense is dumb." "You don't change yourself by thinking. You change yourself by doing." "Your actions are votes for the kind of person you want to be." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 1570: In 1997, Derek Sivers built his own online store to sell CDs, which grew into CD Baby, transforming independent music distribution. His journey highlights self-reliance, innovation, and the balance of trust and oversight in delegation. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/ayw3 & https://sive.rs/trustbut Quotes to ponder: "When you make a company, you make a little universe where you create all the laws." "Trust, but verify. Remember it when delegating. You have to do both." Episode references: Anything You Want: https://www.amazon.com/Anything-You-Want-Lessons-Entrepreneur/dp/1591848261 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Companies have long treated employees like children, micromanaging their tasks and monitoring every move, hoping to boost productivity. The problem is that this approach undermines trust and stifles innovation, parenting employees instead of supporting them. Sammy Burt, author of What Is a Grown-Up Anyway, is working to shift this mindset. She helps organizations embrace a “grown-up” approach that fosters autonomy, confidence, and more empowered, innovative workplaces— treating employees as the adults they are.Sammy Burt is a professional facilitator, systems coach, and leadership consultant at Farleigh Performance. Her upcoming book, What Is a Grown-Up Anyway, explores the complexities of adulthood and personal growth through insightful storytelling and practical guidance.In this episode, Dart and Sammy discuss:- How companies “parent” employees- Treating employees as adults at work- Distinctions between adults and grown-ups- Joy, grieving, and empathy in the workplace- The link between child-like behavior and innovation- Transactional analysis in the workplace- Adult development theory- And other topics…Sammy Burt is a professional facilitator, systems coach, and leadership consultant at Farleigh Performance. With a background in psychology and extensive experience in both corporate and creative industries, she specializes in empowering clients to build resilience, develop leadership skills, and navigate change with confidence. Sammy is also the author of the upcoming book What Is a Grown-Up Anyway, where she explores the complexities of adulthood and personal growth through insightful storytelling and practical guidance.Resources mentioned:What Is a Grown-Up Anyway, by Sammy Burt: https://www.yourbackpack.co.uk/whatisagrownupanyway Design for Belonging, by Susie Wise: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Belonging-Inclusion-Collaboration-Communities/dp/1984858033 Useful Not True, by Derek Sivers: https://www.amazon.com/Useful-Not-True-Derek-Sivers-ebook/dp/B0D86K4XF5 Connect with Sammy: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sammyburt www.farleighperformance.com Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what's most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 1546: Derek Sivers explores how our perspectives shape our reality in his thought-provoking piece "Prism." By reframing how we see the world, we can unlock new opportunities, improve relationships, and discover personal growth through the lens of intentional thinking. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/prism & https://sive.rs/bizriff Quotes to ponder: "Your perspective is like a prism, turn it, and the whole world changes." "We see what we expect to see, not what is." "Every problem contains a seed of opportunity when viewed through the right lens." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tue, 17 Dec 2024 19:00:00 GMT http://relay.fm/focused/219 http://relay.fm/focused/219 David Sparks and Mike Schmitz David & Mike catch up with listener feedback regarding the use of AI, reading workflows, anxious parenting, and what the heck even is a sabbatical. David & Mike catch up with listener feedback regarding the use of AI, reading workflows, anxious parenting, and what the heck even is a sabbatical. clean 4804 David & Mike catch up with listener feedback regarding the use of AI, reading workflows, anxious parenting, and what the heck even is a sabbatical. This episode of Focused is sponsored by: Zocdoc: Find the right doctor, right now with Zocdoc. Sign up for free. Indeed: Join more than 3.5 million businesses worldwide using Indeed to hire great talent fast. Links and Show Notes: Deep Focus: Extended ad-free episodes with bonus deep dive content. Co-Intelligence by Ethan Mollick Time Timer | Visual Timers For Time Management ADHD Gift Guide 2024: 30 Dopamine-Friendly Gifts Ethan Mollick | Substack Readwise Reader Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman Obsidian Web Clipper Feel-Good Productivity by Ali Abdaal Of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves Book Series: The Complete Works of Lucius Annaeus Seneca Shortform | The World's Best Book Summaries Bookworm | Podcast Book Club Anti-Time Management by Richie Norton 211: Anti-Time Management by Richie Norton | Bookworm Hell Yeah or No | Derek Sivers What I'm doing now | Derek Sivers

Send us a text“When I went bankrupt, I begged a friend who had built a unicorn for a 30-minute meeting. The moment we sat down, I could tell he didn't want to be there.Six months later, after working on myself, I went back with a clear vision and positive energy. This time, he introduced me to his network and offered his full support.That experience taught me a powerful lesson: People are drawn to passion and purpose, not negativity."This gem from Marc Nicholson, Founder of 1880, is just one of many transformative insights from our guests this year on the How to Live podcast.As we wrap up 2024, we've pulled together a mixtape of wisdom from the first half of 2024 - a collection of the most thought-provoking, inspiring moments from the podcast.Here's a sneak peek of what's inside:Derek Sivers on questioning the status quo to create a life you love.Marc Nicholson on purpose.Dani on finding deeper meaning and spirituality in everyday life.Esh on unlocking creativity and innovation.Karen & Mette on mastering emotional intelligence to thrive in relationships and work.Leanne & Arjun on entrepreneurial lessons learned the hard way.Natalia on the power of healing and renewal.If you're reflecting on the past year or gearing up for 2025, this episode is your masterclass in growth, purpose, and transformation.Episode Shownoteshttps://howtolive.life/episode/083-life-lessons-2024Next Wave6 month program for high performers hitting 40s and beyond to design the next phase of life. Register interest below - https://www.sharadlal.net/nextwave Leave us a messagehttps://howtolive.life/contactAbout Sharad Lalhttps://www.sharadlal.net/Follow usLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sharadlal24/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PodcastHowtolive/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/podcasthowtolive/

In this episode of Kindsight 101, Morgane Michael welcomes Derek Sivers to discuss his groundbreaking book, Useful Not True, and the empowering philosophy behind it. They delve into the art of reframing beliefs not for their truth but for their usefulness in creating positive actions and outcomes. From simplicity to leadership, Derek offers actionable advice that challenges conventional thinking and inspires growth.Key Takeaways from this Episode:Reframing Beliefs: Learn how choosing beliefs based on their usefulness, rather than their truth, can foster peace and better decision-making.Intentional Simplicity: Discover the power of simplifying life by letting go of unnecessary possessions, commitments, and mental clutter.Parenting Insights: Understand the role of empowerment in parenting and the surprising connection to avoiding tantrums.Building Connections: Explore how diving deeper in conversations can lead to more meaningful relationships.Weekly Self-Audits: Uncover the importance of regular self-assessments to realign with your goals and values.Tune in to gain practical wisdom and a fresh perspective that can transform the way you lead your personal and professional life.#UsefulNotTrue #DerekSivers #PodcastInterview #ReframeYourBeliefs #IntentionalLiving #Simplicity #PersonalGrowth #ParentingTips #LeadershipMindset #DeepThinking #PodcastLove #EducationMatters #MeaningfulConnections #GrowthMindset #Minimalism

In this episode of Unlock Your Potential, Derek Sivers joins us to share his remarkable journey from being a musician and circus performer to founding CD Baby, a company he built from scratch and sold for $22M. Derek offers profound insights into finding your path to mastery, the entrepreneurial spirit within all of us, and the power of saying "Hell yeah or no." He also discusses the truths we grow up with, his minimalist lifestyle, and the lessons he learned during a rough year that shaped his philosophy on life and success. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur, a creative seeking mastery, or someone navigating life's big questions, this conversation is packed with wisdom and actionable advice to help you unlock your potential. Check Out More of Derek's Content Here

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 1510: Building meaningful connections doesn't require you to know high-profile figures. Derek Sivers shares how a simple gesture of buying pizza for a stranger at a guest lecture led to a lifelong network across the globe. The key is taking initiative, creating value, and reaching out whether online or in person to develop relationships that expand your opportunities and mindset. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/xn Quotes to ponder: "The people you surround yourself with don't just open doors. They change the way you think, and change your self-image of your capabilities!" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Derek Sivers is an author of philosophy and entrepreneurship, known for his surprising, quotable insights and pithy, succinct writing style. Derek's books (How to Live, Hell Yeah or No, Your Music and People, Anything You Want) and newest projects are at his website: sive.rs. His new book is Useful Not True.Sponsors:Seed's DS-01® Daily Synbiotic broad spectrum 24-strain probiotic + prebiotic: https://Seed.com/Tim (Use code 25TIM for 25% off your first month's supply)Momentous high-quality supplements: https://livemomentous.com/tim (code TIM for 20% off)AG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement: https://drinkag1.com/tim (1-year supply of Vitamin D (and 5 free AG1 travel packs) with your first subscription purchase.)*For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast.For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsorsSign up for Tim's email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Discover Tim's books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissYouTube: youtube.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, Margaret Atwood, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel, Dr. Gabor Maté, Anne Lamott, Sarah Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Discover all of the podcasts in our network, search for specific episodes, get the Optimal Living Daily workbook, and learn more at: OLDPodcast.com. Episode 3373: Derek Sivers explores a radical mindset shift in two powerful articles. In "Everything is My Fault," he emphasizes the empowerment that comes from taking full responsibility for any situation, seeing yourself as the creator of your circumstances. In "I Love Being Wrong," he finds joy in mistakes and being wrong, as it opens the door to unexpected growth and learning, shifting fear into opportunity. Read along with the original article(s) here: https://sive.rs/my-fault & https://sive.rs/lw Quotes to ponder: "It felt so good to think it was all my fault! This is way better than forgiving. When you forgive, you're still assuming that they're wrong and you're the victim." "I actually love being wrong, even though it cracks my confidence, because that's the only time I learn." "Think of every bad thing that happened to you, and imagine that you happened to it." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Derek Sivers is an entrepreneur, author, and speaker. Things are not what they are, things are what we think they are. The power of reframing and changing your perspective is a kind of alchemy, and today we get to hear some of Derek's best principles for altering the way you see everything. Expect to learn how you can reframe your perspective for the better, what the term ‘Useful Not True' means, why your thoughts cannot be trusted, why people don't bond over facts but rather perspectives, how to not become discouraged if you are thrown off course, how to make better decisions and much more... Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: https://chriswillx.com/deals Get a 20% discount on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first box at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Get $150 discount on Plunge's amazing sauna or cold plunge at https://plunge.com (use code MW150) Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: https://chriswillx.com/books Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: https://tinyurl.com/43hv6y59 #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: https://tinyurl.com/2rtz7avf #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: https://tinyurl.com/3ccn5vkp - Get In Touch: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is a two-for-one, and that's because the podcast recently hit its 10-year anniversary and passed one billion downloads. To celebrate, I've curated some of the best of the best—some of my favorites—from more than 700 episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited. The episode features segments from episode "Derek Sivers on Developing Confidence, Finding Happiness, and Saying No to Millions" and "Interview of Kevin Kelly, Co-Founder of WIRED, Polymath, Most Interesting Man In The World?"Please enjoy!Sponsors:Wealthfront high-yield cash account: https://Wealthfront.com/Tim (Start earning 5.00% APY on your short-term cash until you're ready to invest. And when you open an account today, you can get an extra fifty-dollar bonus with a deposit of five hundred dollars or more.) Terms apply.Helix Sleep premium mattresses: https://HelixSleep.com/Tim (25–30% off all mattress orders and two free pillows)AG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement: https://DrinkAG1.com/Tim (1-year supply of Vitamin D (and 5 free AG1 travel packs) with your first subscription purchase.)Timestamps:[05:47] Notes about this supercombo format.[06:50] Enter Derek Sivers.[07:20] From pig show busker to circus ringleader.[10:42] Derek's framework for developing confidence.[13:05] "The standard pace is for chumps."[18:51] Relaxing for the same result.[24:01] The origins of "HELL YEAH! or no."[26:25] "Busy" implies a life out of control.[28:03] What inspired the automation of CD Baby?[33:22] Derek's billboard.[34:32] Good advice at any age: "Don't be a donkey."[40:24] Enter Kevin Kelly.[41:02] Kevin's biggest regret.[43:13] Finding contentment in minimalism and "voluntary simplicity" without starving to death.[50:33] Kevin's epiphany when he embraced writing as a late bloomer.[56:40] Why Kevin promised himself he would never resort to teaching English while traveling abroad.[59:07] Finding purpose through resilience and the creator's dilemma.[1:06:50] Why the appeal of being a billionaire is overrated.[1:11:05] Middle-aged optimization.[1:15:28] Realizations following a "six months until death" challenge.[1:20:08] Kevin's Kickstarter-funded project linking angels and robots.[1:22:41] Why a self-proclaimed ex-hippie waited until his 50th birthday to try LSD for the first time.[1:28:43] Why a population implosion is probable in the next 100 years.[1:36:05] The greatest gift you can give to your child.[1:38:21] The criteria for Amish technology assimilation.[1:45:03] What technology-free sabbaticals can do for you.[1:48:53] Long Now Foundation's vision of a better civilization.[1:53:33] The graphic novel teaching young people how to become indispensable.[1:54:52] An antidote to misguided "follow your passion" advice.[1:56:44] Kevin's favorite fiction book.[1:59:15] The resource Kevin compiled for documentary lovers.[2:02:47] A name Kevin considers synonymous with "success" (and why success is overrated).[2:05:46] What Kevin would change about himself.[2:07:59] Daily rituals.[2:10:44] How Kevin accumulated enough books to fill a two-story library.[2:15:19] How Adam Savage from MythBusters transformed Kevin's method of organization.[2:17:14] The project everyone should undertake at least once in life.[2:19:30] Does discovery equal invention?[2:20:12] Kevin's advice to his younger self.[2:23:16] Parting thoughts.*For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast.For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsorsSign up for Tim's email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Discover Tim's books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissYouTube: youtube.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferrissPast guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, Margaret Atwood, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel, Dr. Gabor Maté, Anne Lamott, Sarah Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and many more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.