Introvert Biz Growth Podcast

Today's conversation fits under the P of Pause Yes, I tricked you. Obviously Pause is not a word from the Humane Marketing Mandala. That's right. I'm putting the podcast on pause in 2026. Some of you know that I'm co-creating a new community called Inner Development at work, all around the Inner Development Guide framework, where we want to change the world, starting from within. Sound similar to Humane Marketing. That's right. I was practicing this framework before it even existed. Anyways, that community takes up a lot of my pro bono time right now, and I simply have to do in my own business, what I often help my 1on1 Coaching clients do in theirs: look at all the things we're doing, and then prioritizing which ones to continue to invest energy in. And unfortunately the podcast didn't make the cut. As you might know, creating and hosting a podcast takes a LOT of time, and I simply need and want to focus this time on other things right now. So I'm pressing pause right now. Pause but not Full Stop. Because I might still publish an episode occassionally, whenever I meet a new amazing human being that I just want to have a conversation with. So don't unsubscribe completely. Talking about unsubscribe. I also moved the show to Kajabi (because they include the podcast in my plan) and just transferred all the episodes over the other day. And guess how many episodes there was? 327! Yes, I know, the visuals say 220, but I've actually been podcasting long before the Humane Marketing podcast. The first show was called ‘Where Introverts Grow Their Business', then I renamed it to ‘The Gentle Business Revolution', which finally morphed into ‘The Humane Marketing Show'So yes, 327 episodes. Wow. I think I deserve a pause

This is the 5th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode Kerry shares some feedback from previous participants of the program, what was great and what could be improved >> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 5th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode Kerry shares some feedback from previous participants of the program, what was great and what could be improved >> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 4th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the resources or workbooks of the program, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. >> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 4th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the resources or workbooks of the program, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. >> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 4th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the resources or workbooks of the program, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. >> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 3rd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about each module in detail, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 3rd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about each module in detail, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 3rd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about each module in detail, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 2nd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the pivotal moments of the program I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 2nd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the pivotal moments of the program I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 2nd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the pivotal moments of the program I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

I'm kicking off another little series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

I'm kicking off another little series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

I'm kicking off another little series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

Neurodivergent Marketing is a real-talk conversation with Myriam Martinez for neurodivergent entrepreneurs who want marketing that fits their nervous system. We unpack why masking turns marketing into performance and how overload and pace create the real friction. We name the trust breakers (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) and offer humane swaps: "signpost" instead of lead magnet, "people who clicked" instead of conversions, and publishing prices, totals, and time needs before any call. Expect consent-led sales calls, boundaries as care, and Neurodivergent strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—as positioning superpowers so people can choose with bodily safety, time, and agency. The outcome: a sustainable, sovereign, and humane way to market. In this episode we discussed: How many of us discover neurodivergence through our families and feel relief naming it. Why masking in life makes "performing" in marketing extra exhausting. That overload and pace are the core friction—not a mindset issue. How old marketing norms (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) violate trust. Reframing jargon into human words: "lead magnet" → "signpost," "conversions" → "people who clicked." Why transparency matters: publish prices, totals, and time needs before any call. How ND strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—become positioning superpowers. That buyers need bodily safety, time, and agency to choose. Why consent-led sales calls beat scripts and simulation. Boundaries as care: limited meetings, clear hours, recovery time after stimulation. Embracing your wiring (not fixing it) reduces anxiety and increases sustainability. A hopeful future: a rising generation that won't tolerate manipulation and leads with sovereignty. Watch this episode on YouTube -- Speaker 0: miriam, it's good to have you back. welcome to the humane marketing podcast. Speaker 1: sarah, i'm so happy to be back on your podcast. Speaker 0: back in my house. right? we just yes. it's just like having a conversation in my house. yes. Speaker 1: yes. exactly. Speaker 0: yeah. so you've been on the show before, but this time we decided to talk about neurodivergent marketing, which is something that i'm super excited about and especially to talk about it with you, um, because you went through this own little transformation and awakening or how would you call it? yeah. Speaker 1: i mean, it's an awakening or rediscovery, you know, in a way of who i am, who i really am at my core, and how that impacts everything that i do. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. because we, uh, worked together a few years back. and back then, it was very much focused on women and well-being, the work that you were doing. and so tell us a little bit how that has changed over the most recent months, year. Speaker 1: yeah. so like most adults, it started with my kids' diagnoses of adhd and becoming more curious about it. you know, i'm a therapist, so i i'm i always understood the diagnosis. you know, i understood it in that way, maybe, like, in a more removed way. but once it was in my home, you know, and i was really living with it, i obviously became much more curious about it. you know? and then it turns out that, you know, my husband is adhd, and it's like, oh, look at them. they're like two peas in a pod. you know? um, and so i started doing more training around this because i wanted to be more supportive for people around this. and quickly, i started to see some traits, you know, show up for me. and for me, it's a really interesting cross between autism and adhd, which there's a term that's floating around out there called adhd. and that's not a diagnosis. right? but it just reflects that there's this cross between these two worlds sometimes. and, you know, we're learning all the time about neurodivergence, you know, and how it shows up and it's so different for everybody. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. thanks for sharing your story. and it kinda went very similarly for me. like for the longest time, we, you know, didn't know, uh, what my son was experiencing. and for i first thought, well, introvert like, back in the days, we just talked about introverts, extroverts. yep. and then all of a sudden this term hsp came up and i discovered, oh, i'm a highly sensitive person. and so i thought, oh, that's probably what he is as well. and and and then, you know, as it kept as we kept discovering more and, you know, thank god we have so much information out there now and youtube videos and all of that. it's it's so helpful. i don't know. well, i guess that's a big reason why back in the days it wasn't discovered. right? i'm pretty sure my dad is autistic, but how would he have known if if there wasn't that much content out there and diagnosis? and and so, yeah, learning it about my son that he's on the spectrum and then pretty sure my husband is too. and and so just, yeah, finding out more and more and and then working with clients who have adhd or, um, you know, our hsps, neurodivergency. and so i think i couldn't think of a better person than you to have this conversation around marketing because that's really what we worked on together as well. and, like, just i remember your expression of frustration around this thing that we call marketing and and how it just, like, your brain was, like, going against it and you're like, no. Speaker 1: in all the ways. yeah. i could not process it. Speaker 0: yeah. exactly. so if we if you maybe think back to that time, but then also just to generalize, what do you think like, why is marketing the old way of marketing? right? why is that so counterintuitive for, uh, people on the neurodivergent spectrum? why do they react like you did? whereas, like, i just don't get it. why would we do this like that? Speaker 1: right. right. no. exactly. um, it's it's multilayered. right? because when we're talking about neurodivergence, we're talking about a variety of different disorders and diagnoses. right? so that could include autism, adhd, dyslexia, dyscalculia, which is, you know, having a hard time with numbers or number concepts, dyspraxia, which is having a lot of uncoordination in your body, right, tourette's. i mean, there's such a list that falls under neurodivergence. so when we talk about these generals, i wanna make sure that i put that disclaimer out there that it's not necessarily applicable to everybody under that umbrella. but that in general, really what it comes down to is sensory overload. like, it's just too much. it's too and and then pace. it's too fast. it's too fast moving. we can't process. i mean, which which is how i started this conversation. right? i was like, i can't process this. it was too much. it was too much. you know? and what's hard when you are experiencing neurodivergence, but you don't know that that's what's happening is that you're comparing yourself to the neurotypical world, which is looking at you like, what's the big deal? yeah. i don't understand what your problem is. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: right? and so i really struggled with my self esteem around my business, for myself. like, can i even do this? because i can't do these things. i'm having a hard time. it's you know? and then you have people telling you it's a mindset issue. you know? and it's like, no. i literally can't understand this concept. right? so it's so much of it is that sensory piece, like i said, and just it's too fast and short deadlines and pressure. and it's just not something that works with the neurodivergent nervous system. we're much more sensitive than that. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. and what i experience also from, you know, when i hear back from clients is is this authenticity piece. so as we know, uh, there's a lot of masking that needs to happen for or not needs to, but is happening for neurodivergent peoples in order to fit in. right? Speaker 1: it's part of survival. Speaker 0: and yeah. exactly. and so and so it almost seems like, well, they have to wear this mask all the time to survive, to fit in. and so they are kind of, like, revolting against having to wear this mask as well in the marketing field and in the business field. it's just, like, so exhausting to to do that. Speaker 1: it's so exhausting. yeah. absolutely. and and i do think that it it's it's 10 times more exhausting when you don't know what's going on. you know? so a lot of the work that i do with adults, right, is help them see that they are probably under this umbrella. right? and we start looking at some of their behaviors, right, and their patterns. and then quickly together, we can identify, oh, yeah. it looks like maybe you're adhd or it looks like maybe you fall under autism or, you know, whatever it is. or maybe there's more than one thing going on, you know, adhd with dyslexia. right? dyscalculia is something that's, you know, relatively new in terms of, um, of a term that's used out there. right? and for me personally, i mean, i think i i'm a i i might have cried when i heard that term. you know? it was like, oh, right. so it's not that i'm dumb. it's not that i'm not a, quote, unquote, math person. like, my brain literally has a hard time processing numbers and number concepts just like a dyslexic can't see letters in the right form. it's the same. Speaker 0: yeah. and here we are, you know, in marketing, keep telling people to not the numbers so much, but the the content i'm thinking of, like, keep creating all this content. well, you know, uh, if you have dyslexia, writing and reading is definitely not part of the things that you enjoy doing. and so, again, if you compare yourself to the neurotypical people, you're you start to think, well, what's wrong with me? how can i how can how come i can't do this? Speaker 1: that's right. and then that really interferes. right? you can see how then that really starts to interfere. yeah. 100%. and for me, in marketing, there's always a lot of talk about budget. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: yeah. and then just the word sends my nervous system into a state, you know. and if you start talking to me about budgets or asking me or start talk throwing any kind of numbers at me in any way, my brain will just completely shut down. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: it just won't it just won't let it in, and you'll probably see a really blank look come across my face. Speaker 0: yeah. but just or or even, like, conversion rates. right? how does that make you feel? Speaker 1: so scary. so scary. Speaker 0: yeah. it's all these metrics, like the the linear linear and kind of like Speaker 1: yeah. that's really, really Speaker 0: masculine way of of doing marketing was all based on on numbers and conversions and Speaker 1: right. Speaker 0: yeah. roi is another one of those terms. you're like, uh. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. totally. and if Speaker 1: i hadn't discovered this, i i might have given up. i might have just said, i guess this isn't for me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: or or i guess i'm just i can't do it or i'm not good at it. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: right? Speaker 0: so so let's turn it around then. like yes. what kind of, you know, strengths do neurodivergent people have and can bring to this idea of business building and and marketing and and connecting and communicating, really, because that's what we're talking about. Speaker 1: yeah. i know. i love this part. this part gets me really excited, you know. but i think that, you know, again, a little mini disclaimer is that sometimes the strengths are, like, they're double edged swords. sometimes they also create stress. you know? so for example, one thing that, um, neurodivergence bring is a lot of, um, focus on detail. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1: right? and pattern recognition. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and being able to take that information and then create a concept. you know? um, and that's amazing. that's an amazing skill, you know, when it's applied well. and and then we might focus too much on a detail. right? or go Speaker 0: down a little bit. to procrastination as well because it needs to be perfect into every detail. Speaker 1: yeah. and, you know, i wanna i wanna separate those two things because perfectionism is more under the category of anxiety. mhmm. right? and so when we're dealing with, um, neurodivergence, we we are also experiencing things like anxiety. so it becomes much more challenging, right, when we're dealing with these multiple layers at the same time. you know? but i do think that if we can keep looking at the at what the strengths are in this, you know, like, really deep focus. right? directness and honesty. you know? we don't really like small talk or anything that's not deep, essentially. right? and we'd have a hard time not being honest. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: you know? it really becomes a moral dilemma. and so that's those are things that i think are really beautiful about, um, people under the narrow neurodivergent umbrella. right? there's also the creativity Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and out of the box thinking. Speaker 0: yeah. very much so. mhmm. and i think that's what you really played into it. right? it's like because you have that creative part of yourself and you've figured out how do i bring that to my marketing. i remember back in the days when you used to follow, you know, the these, um, kind of templates of creating canva visuals. yeah. it just all looks the same. let's be honest. right? Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. Speaker 0: and then all of a sudden you started to bring in your art and, you know, more of your pictures and you could tell, wow, she's really having fun with this. and that's the that's the creative side. um, yeah. so much Speaker 1: so for me, i have to change some of the terms. right? and and it kinda maybe speaks to, like, how we market to neurodivergent folk. you know? because if you use the word conversion rate, then my heart rate goes up, and i'm gonna have a shutdown. right? but if you say, how many people, right, or this many people clicked on your site, and then this is what happened after that, then i got it. i can totally follow that pattern. right? so it's again, sometimes the wording, sometimes, uh, too much of a relationship to mathematical concepts or overwhelm, overload. right? that kind of a thing. Speaker 0: basically, concepts that society accepted as being marketing concepts and ideas. Speaker 1: mhmm. Speaker 0: and that you are like, who said that was a concept? like, explain it to me what that means in in, like, full sentences. Speaker 1: yeah. which is very much a lot in the autism range. yeah. you know, like, we really want to know the detail. how did we get there? i really wanna understand the the process. right. right. and then i can really integrate the information. Speaker 0: right. yeah. i get it. yeah. yeah. what i noticed myself doing a lot, um, on the blog is taking some of these old paradigm terms, uh, from marketing, like lead magnet. right? most people have heard of lead magnets. but what does that even mean? like, it's such a weird kind of term where we're sucking people in with a magnet. and so turning that into signposts where we are guiding people to to make a a buying decision, for example, or to come into our world. but i find that i need to use the old word and then juxtaposition it to the new words so that, you know, i can help make that that journey over the bridge, like, to to help people understand, yeah, this is maybe what you've heard, but it doesn't feel good. and so here's an alternative. here's a different word for it. Speaker 1: mhmm. mhmm. Speaker 0: so, uh, i i hear from you that that's helpful. right? like, coming up with new language around marketing that what and then prompts our nervous system as well. Speaker 1: that's right. and so much of the self care is, like, being able to notice that something does create agitation for you. right? and rather than question it or put yourself down for it, it's like, okay. it's just that my nervous system is not liking this for some reason. let's see what what i can do about that. right? Speaker 0: right. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. like, what other things that you have experienced in in business? like, let's think about sales, for example, uh, where you feel like there's been a certain norm. again, these norms. right? that, uh, neurodivergent people are like, i don't get these norms. like but there are some kind of norms. like, let's take a a sales call, uh, that feels very scripted, uh, where you are on the call and you you can cut you've like, what my son always says, he's like, feels like we're in a simulation. not necessarily in a sales call, but i'm sure he would say that if the person just kinda goes blah blah blah through the sales script. and you're like, is he even talking to me? like, is this is this for real? like yeah. Speaker 1: do you Speaker 0: have any other kind of business concept things that you feel like, yeah, that's just not for neurodivergent people. Speaker 1: oh, yeah. i mean, let's start with the scarcity countdowns. Speaker 0: uh, yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: right? what my body does with that is it shuts down. Speaker 0: creates so much anxiety. right? Speaker 1: yeah. absolutely. you know? and for some people, it it it will work, so to speak, you know, quote, unquote. it will create such stress in someone that they'll that they'll buy the the coaching package or, you know, whatever it is. but that's kinda icky. right? and it's the opposite of humane marketing. so that those kinds of things, you know, are not for the neurodivergent. i don't think they're for anybody, but that's my personal opinion. you know? yeah. Speaker 0: my opinion too. Speaker 1: that's why we're here. yeah. right? Speaker 0: another example that comes to mind i don't know if that is still happening, uh, out there. but back in the days, they would have these webinars, huge webinars with tons of people only in the chat. and then they would pretend it's live where it's actually not live. and i would, like, wanted to scream and say, Speaker 1: can't you Speaker 0: guys see that it's not live? like, we know. we're not stupid. we're we know this is not live. yeah. and and yeah. like, i i really just think the bs, uh, meter for neurodivergent people is is, you know, on a different level. Speaker 1: tolerance for it. Speaker 0: zero tolerance for Speaker 1: for and we can smell it from a mile away. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. you know? and there's that transparency and truth telling. right? Speaker 1: yeah. 100%. Speaker 0: 100%. Speaker 1: and so i think that for, uh, neurodivergent folks, like, when they're in business and they're trying to, you know, work on their marketing and their sales, everything about their business just needs to feel safe, you know, in their body. and if it feels a little icky or if it's there's something there, it's like it's really an an invitation to pause and check out what that might be about because you might be going down the path that is not gonna work for you. Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. like, right now, we were talking about from the marketing perspective, and then there's also from the buying perspective. and that's what you were addressing. it's like, how do i want to buy? how that how does it how should it feel in my body, uh, to to want to buy something and make a, you know, a a buying decision? i think what we're addressing is obviously the healed neurodivergent person. and what i'm seeing out there is is kind of this manipulation of the not of the non healed neurodivergent people where there's even more stress applied. and you you kind of mentioned that as well. right? and so they're buying out of anxiety. Speaker 1: that's right. Speaker 0: um, but then if you are the healed neurodivergent person, how how is that an integrity with what you're actually selling? right? yeah. Speaker 1: uh, to be honest, i don't even know what that means because neurodivergence is not something you heal or fix. Speaker 0: true. um, i guess it's just knowing having looked at it. like, would you say that someone who knows so whether it's an official diagnosis or just, you know, having looked at it more deeply, are they more able to deal with this anxiety because they Speaker 1: i mean, it's very it's often very relieving for people. i mean, especially for the adults i work with. right? because most of us have grown up thinking that we're we're not smart or not good enough or, you know, we're dumb at math or, you know, whatever it is. like, all these stories because you were not operating in the same way as other people. so oftentimes, when i work with clients and we move into this looks like a possible diagnosis for you, there's a lot of relief. there's a lot of like, oh, is that why that was so hard? or is that why i couldn't read? or is that why math is hard? or is that why socializing exhausts me? or, you know, whatever it is, it's like it becomes like this unraveling. right? and there's a lot of, you know, there's emotion to that. there's grief and, you know, that kind of a thing. but, you know, once you really embrace, like, this is who i am and you learn to work with your particular flavor, right, of neurodivergence, i i think that you can be very successful at just about anything. i don't, you know, i don't see why i should stand in your way. Speaker 0: and i guess that's what i meant by healed. you know? you just, like, learn who you truly are. and i think that's when you start to say no even more to the things that are not aligned with you. where before, like, what i'm seeing with my son, it's like, well, the pressure from the neuro normal side of the world is so hard that, you know, there's there's more push to know to just have to do what everybody else is doing, and then the anxiety, of course, goes up. and so if if i take this to the marketing thing, it's like, if you have not yet figured out truly who you are and and, you know, really stand with with that, then there's a big risk that you are feeling this anxiety every time you're being sold to or have to market. mhmm. so i guess that's where that pivot is. it's like, no. i'm not taking it anymore. i'm doing marketing my way, or i'm not buying from people who are trying to manipulate me and, you know, push me into scarcity and stuff thing things like that. Speaker 1: absolutely. manipulate me in any way. you know? i mean, one of the things that in general is kinda scary about the coaching world specifically is that it's it's so much based on pain point marketing, you know, and tapping into people's anxiety or stress or whatever it is that's going on and offering some kind of quick fix. Speaker 0: you know? Speaker 1: and it's like it's so unethical when it's so wrong because that's not the way human beings work. Speaker 0: no. yeah. totally. Speaker 1: no? yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. talking about this this coaching world, um, and and these pain points, that's another one of these words that need a a reframe. right? Speaker 1: absolutely. Speaker 0: because, yeah, that's what the old marketing is based on. it's like, let's make the pain points so bad. uh, you know, let's make you feel so shitty that you have to buy my solution. yeah. Speaker 1: it's like it's like it's like pouncing on a little innocent animal or something. you know, that's how how it feels for me. yeah. you know? yeah. no. absolutely not. terrible. Speaker 0: another thing is the the pricing, uh, discussion. yeah. and i think there is also this really need for transparency. can you speak to that? Speaker 1: 100%. that is absolutely necessary. you know, it's kinda what i was saying before even for myself. it's like, i want to know all of the data. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: and i want to know that, like, for myself on my own terms so that i can process it on my own. right? so if somebody doesn't have any pricing on their website, i will likely not work with them. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1: because i need that information upfront. otherwise, i will feel a little anxiety maybe, you know, about the possibility that if i get on a call with you, you might do some of these unethical things or things that just don't work for me and my body. right? like, now you're gonna talk about pricing, and now i have to do it right now, and i'm gonna get all anxious and Speaker 0: no. yeah. Speaker 1: i'm i'm very clear about that part. so, yes, for i think for neurodivergent folks, we want we want all of the information, as much information as you can give us, and then we can make our decision. Speaker 0: yeah. and give me time to make this. Speaker 1: need time. that's right. i don't need pressure. none of that will work. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: none of that will work. Speaker 0: yeah. in in a way, to me, neurodivergent people are, like, super smart, very conscious human beings. and the old way of marketing is taking people for stupid, really. it's like, oh, i can, you know, trick and sleaze you and you will never notice what i'm doing. and neurodivergent people are like, no, i'm not having this at all. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. yeah. that book is awesome. it's a superpower. Speaker 0: yeah, it really is. and in a way, you know, there's to me, there's no surprise that we're seeing more and more neurodivergency because we're really heading into this time of of of sovereignty of each individual being very, very individual, very authentic and very sovereign and and like showing up with that sovereignty and and, yeah, being able to make our own decisions, not just for buying stuff, but for for everything. and i think that's a very yeah. it's a beautiful vision of the world to to think of humans like that. Speaker 1: mhmm. no. i agree. meeting each other on that place. right? Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and having sales conversations in that kind of, um, yeah, with with that basis is a completely different thing than, like i, uh, mentioned before where, you know, i just read a script and don't even care, you know, if we've talked before or whatever. so right. it's just Speaker 1: or i look at you like dollar signs. Speaker 0: oh, yeah. yeah. that's another one. right? Speaker 1: and it's like, i i can't i can't do that. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: i just, like, i physically can't do that. i have to look at you as a person, you know, and and just show you what i have and then give you that agency, you know, to decide whether this is the right fit for you. Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. yeah. sovereignty, agency, beautiful words. Speaker 1: mhmm. yes. yeah. so no pressure, you know, from me. Speaker 0: yeah. what about, you know, other boundaries that you have learned to set for yourself as an entrepreneur, as a marketer, maybe, but but just, yeah, finding that inner peace and being being able to keep showing up without anxiety? Speaker 1: yeah. well, i mean, i think that it could kinda goes back to what i was saying before. right? that to me, the word that comes up is embrace. right? it's not fixed. it's embrace. embrace that this is how your nervous system is wired. right? this is how you were born, and this is how you operate in the world. right? because when we resist, right, it creates tension and stress and anxiety. and i know that's not easy and it takes time, but i think that that's, you know, step one is accept that this is who you are. right? except that, you know, for me, it's like, oh, i don't really want a lot of loud noises or i have to be careful about how much time i spend in group environments or, you know, how much time am i spending in front of my computer or how much time am i spending outside. it's like all of these things around my sensory stuff, my particular version of it and what that looks like for me. but i think that having a lot of boundaries is really important because we need so much more time to recover yeah. of things. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: mhmm. and giving yourself permission to do that. this this is literally a physical thing that is happening to you. and if you push your body past that, that typically doesn't go well. creates more stress. you know? Speaker 0: exactly. it's creating that spaciousness, uh, for you to be human because you are, yeah, a unique human being who has unique needs. yeah. and that's the whole Speaker 1: and you yeah. and you are the only one that can decide, like, what your level of care needs to be. yeah. you're the only one convinced by that. you know? what are your office hours? when do you respond? you know? what are your boundaries with people in your business? what are your boundaries with yourself? Speaker 0: yeah. it actually starts with yourself because otherwise, you're not walking your dog. Speaker 1: right? exactly. exactly. but i think that's the best way that we can, you know, take care of ourselves. and and sometimes we have to, you know, kinda like what your son was saying, it's really hard because sometimes we have to explain these things to people. you know? like, because somebody might look at me and go, but what's the big deal about another evening meeting this week? Speaker 0: yeah. i get that all the time. Speaker 1: yeah. and it's like, well, basically, my head feels like it's gonna explode. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: so that's a no for me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: right? in my body, i do not feel the capacity, the energy at all to do it. yeah. and i will pay a consequence for that. i might, like, be out for a couple days just laying laying around, staring at a wall or something. mhmm. mhmm. just to recover. like, less of, uh, decreasing my stimulation just to be able to recover from overdoing, overstimulating myself. yeah. Speaker 0: let's wrap up with something like positive, a positive outlook on how yeah. the world would look differently if we had all this humane marketing led by neurodivergent people. Speaker 1: that sounds great. businesses according Speaker 0: to the new rules by neurodivergent people. that would not feel look like. Speaker 1: uh, that just makes my heart sore, you know, just to imagine that, you know, because if sensitive people around the world right? and if if our skill set of thinking things through slowing down, you know, really taking the time to make a decision, you know, an informed decision that's rooted in, like, how it feels for you, like, my goodness. the the the possibilities are endless of how the world could change. Speaker 0: it's so different. right? Speaker 1: and i do think that, you know, what gives me hope, you know, in the present is that this next generation of kids and young people have all of this information at their disposal. so my hope, right, is that this generation can grow up not feeling like they're dumb or like there's something wrong with them, that they'll just own that as part of who they are from the very beginning. right? which is the opposite of what i see with so many adults. Speaker 0: you know? Speaker 1: so many of the adults i work with, and we're talking ceos. we're talking big people that are like, oh my goodness. is this what's been going on all this time? you know? but they grew up feeling less than or feeling like they had to mask or feeling like they had to work 10 times harder than everybody else, you know, push themselves. you know? that's just thing. and and they're really feeling the consequence of that Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: in their bodies, in their lives. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: so that's one thing that gives me hope, you know, is that this new generation, it's like, wow. you guys have all of that in your little hands. that's amazing. Speaker 0: yeah. and, also, like, they're just not having it. they're like they look at us, see what we created, and they're like, i'm not having that, that, that. Speaker 1: so why would i do that? Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. like you said, that that gives us lots of hope. yeah. Speaker 1: because there's much more permission. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. well, i think we need to continue this conversation in episode two around just kinda like today, we talked a lot about marketing. maybe we can just talk about entrepreneurship for neurodivergent people because there's a lot of, um, people out there who are, you know, really bringing these new concepts, new ideas. and i think it'd be interesting to continue the conversation. Speaker 1: i think it's actually a really important conversation to have. Speaker 0: yeah. well, for now, why don't you share with people how you work with them, where they can find you, and all of that? Speaker 1: yeah. so, you know, i work both with individuals and groups and organizations. right? so with individuals, it's about, you know, understanding their neurodivergency and if there's any, you know, obstacles related to that, like feeling less than, feeling not good enough, feeling like you have to over perform, you know, whatever the behavior is that, um, interferes, we really look at that and address that so that people can live with, you know, ideally less stress and just feeling better in general about life, you know. and with groups and organizations, i really love to bring in the inclusion component of having neurodivergent folk in your organization because one in four people falls under the neurodivergent umbrella. that's a lot of people. yeah. right? so if you're looking at your organization and and it's hard because it shows up as communication issues a lot of the time or, you know, things that look like performance issues in in an organizational environment when really this person is just struggling with some kind of neurodivergence. and when that's addressed, then they can go they can become a peak performer employee just like everybody else. yeah. yeah. people can find me on my website. they can look for me on linkedin. i'm also on instagram. you know? so and please and Speaker 0: your website is myriammartinezcocoaching.com. correct? Speaker 1: it is. yes. thank you. mhmm. and, yeah, please don't hesitate to reach out around any anything related to neurodivergent. Speaker 0: wonderful. well, to be continued. yeah. thanks so much for, yeah, sharing this. it was amazing. Speaker 1: thank you, sarah.

Neurodivergent Marketing is a real-talk conversation with Myriam Martinez for neurodivergent entrepreneurs who want marketing that fits their nervous system. We unpack why masking turns marketing into performance and how overload and pace create the real friction. We name the trust breakers (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) and offer humane swaps: "signpost" instead of lead magnet, "people who clicked" instead of conversions, and publishing prices, totals, and time needs before any call. Expect consent-led sales calls, boundaries as care, and Neurodivergent strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—as positioning superpowers so people can choose with bodily safety, time, and agency. The outcome: a sustainable, sovereign, and humane way to market. In this episode we discussed: How many of us discover neurodivergence through our families and feel relief naming it. Why masking in life makes "performing" in marketing extra exhausting. That overload and pace are the core friction—not a mindset issue. How old marketing norms (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) violate trust. Reframing jargon into human words: "lead magnet" → "signpost," "conversions" → "people who clicked." Why transparency matters: publish prices, totals, and time needs before any call. How ND strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—become positioning superpowers. That buyers need bodily safety, time, and agency to choose. Why consent-led sales calls beat scripts and simulation. Boundaries as care: limited meetings, clear hours, recovery time after stimulation. Embracing your wiring (not fixing it) reduces anxiety and increases sustainability. A hopeful future: a rising generation that won't tolerate manipulation and leads with sovereignty. Watch this episode on YouTube -- Speaker 0: miriam, it's good to have you back. welcome to the humane marketing podcast. Speaker 1: sarah, i'm so happy to be back on your podcast. Speaker 0: back in my house. right? we just yes. it's just like having a conversation in my house. yes. Speaker 1: yes. exactly. Speaker 0: yeah. so you've been on the show before, but this time we decided to talk about neurodivergent marketing, which is something that i'm super excited about and especially to talk about it with you, um, because you went through this own little transformation and awakening or how would you call it? yeah. Speaker 1: i mean, it's an awakening or rediscovery, you know, in a way of who i am, who i really am at my core, and how that impacts everything that i do. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. because we, uh, worked together a few years back. and back then, it was very much focused on women and well-being, the work that you were doing. and so tell us a little bit how that has changed over the most recent months, year. Speaker 1: yeah. so like most adults, it started with my kids' diagnoses of adhd and becoming more curious about it. you know, i'm a therapist, so i i'm i always understood the diagnosis. you know, i understood it in that way, maybe, like, in a more removed way. but once it was in my home, you know, and i was really living with it, i obviously became much more curious about it. you know? and then it turns out that, you know, my husband is adhd, and it's like, oh, look at them. they're like two peas in a pod. you know? um, and so i started doing more training around this because i wanted to be more supportive for people around this. and quickly, i started to see some traits, you know, show up for me. and for me, it's a really interesting cross between autism and adhd, which there's a term that's floating around out there called adhd. and that's not a diagnosis. right? but it just reflects that there's this cross between these two worlds sometimes. and, you know, we're learning all the time about neurodivergence, you know, and how it shows up and it's so different for everybody. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. thanks for sharing your story. and it kinda went very similarly for me. like for the longest time, we, you know, didn't know, uh, what my son was experiencing. and for i first thought, well, introvert like, back in the days, we just talked about introverts, extroverts. yep. and then all of a sudden this term hsp came up and i discovered, oh, i'm a highly sensitive person. and so i thought, oh, that's probably what he is as well. and and and then, you know, as it kept as we kept discovering more and, you know, thank god we have so much information out there now and youtube videos and all of that. it's it's so helpful. i don't know. well, i guess that's a big reason why back in the days it wasn't discovered. right? i'm pretty sure my dad is autistic, but how would he have known if if there wasn't that much content out there and diagnosis? and and so, yeah, learning it about my son that he's on the spectrum and then pretty sure my husband is too. and and so just, yeah, finding out more and more and and then working with clients who have adhd or, um, you know, our hsps, neurodivergency. and so i think i couldn't think of a better person than you to have this conversation around marketing because that's really what we worked on together as well. and, like, just i remember your expression of frustration around this thing that we call marketing and and how it just, like, your brain was, like, going against it and you're like, no. Speaker 1: in all the ways. yeah. i could not process it. Speaker 0: yeah. exactly. so if we if you maybe think back to that time, but then also just to generalize, what do you think like, why is marketing the old way of marketing? right? why is that so counterintuitive for, uh, people on the neurodivergent spectrum? why do they react like you did? whereas, like, i just don't get it. why would we do this like that? Speaker 1: right. right. no. exactly. um, it's it's multilayered. right? because when we're talking about neurodivergence, we're talking about a variety of different disorders and diagnoses. right? so that could include autism, adhd, dyslexia, dyscalculia, which is, you know, having a hard time with numbers or number concepts, dyspraxia, which is having a lot of uncoordination in your body, right, tourette's. i mean, there's such a list that falls under neurodivergence. so when we talk about these generals, i wanna make sure that i put that disclaimer out there that it's not necessarily applicable to everybody under that umbrella. but that in general, really what it comes down to is sensory overload. like, it's just too much. it's too and and then pace. it's too fast. it's too fast moving. we can't process. i mean, which which is how i started this conversation. right? i was like, i can't process this. it was too much. it was too much. you know? and what's hard when you are experiencing neurodivergence, but you don't know that that's what's happening is that you're comparing yourself to the neurotypical world, which is looking at you like, what's the big deal? yeah. i don't understand what your problem is. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: right? and so i really struggled with my self esteem around my business, for myself. like, can i even do this? because i can't do these things. i'm having a hard time. it's you know? and then you have people telling you it's a mindset issue. you know? and it's like, no. i literally can't understand this concept. right? so it's so much of it is that sensory piece, like i said, and just it's too fast and short deadlines and pressure. and it's just not something that works with the neurodivergent nervous system. we're much more sensitive than that. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. and what i experience also from, you know, when i hear back from clients is is this authenticity piece. so as we know, uh, there's a lot of masking that needs to happen for or not needs to, but is happening for neurodivergent peoples in order to fit in. right? Speaker 1: it's part of survival. Speaker 0: and yeah. exactly. and so and so it almost seems like, well, they have to wear this mask all the time to survive, to fit in. and so they are kind of, like, revolting against having to wear this mask as well in the marketing field and in the business field. it's just, like, so exhausting to to do that. Speaker 1: it's so exhausting. yeah. absolutely. and and i do think that it it's it's 10 times more exhausting when you don't know what's going on. you know? so a lot of the work that i do with adults, right, is help them see that they are probably under this umbrella. right? and we start looking at some of their behaviors, right, and their patterns. and then quickly together, we can identify, oh, yeah. it looks like maybe you're adhd or it looks like maybe you fall under autism or, you know, whatever it is. or maybe there's more than one thing going on, you know, adhd with dyslexia. right? dyscalculia is something that's, you know, relatively new in terms of, um, of a term that's used out there. right? and for me personally, i mean, i think i i'm a i i might have cried when i heard that term. you know? it was like, oh, right. so it's not that i'm dumb. it's not that i'm not a, quote, unquote, math person. like, my brain literally has a hard time processing numbers and number concepts just like a dyslexic can't see letters in the right form. it's the same. Speaker 0: yeah. and here we are, you know, in marketing, keep telling people to not the numbers so much, but the the content i'm thinking of, like, keep creating all this content. well, you know, uh, if you have dyslexia, writing and reading is definitely not part of the things that you enjoy doing. and so, again, if you compare yourself to the neurotypical people, you're you start to think, well, what's wrong with me? how can i how can how come i can't do this? Speaker 1: that's right. and then that really interferes. right? you can see how then that really starts to interfere. yeah. 100%. and for me, in marketing, there's always a lot of talk about budget. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: yeah. and then just the word sends my nervous system into a state, you know. and if you start talking to me about budgets or asking me or start talk throwing any kind of numbers at me in any way, my brain will just completely shut down. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: it just won't it just won't let it in, and you'll probably see a really blank look come across my face. Speaker 0: yeah. but just or or even, like, conversion rates. right? how does that make you feel? Speaker 1: so scary. so scary. Speaker 0: yeah. it's all these metrics, like the the linear linear and kind of like Speaker 1: yeah. that's really, really Speaker 0: masculine way of of doing marketing was all based on on numbers and conversions and Speaker 1: right. Speaker 0: yeah. roi is another one of those terms. you're like, uh. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. totally. and if Speaker 1: i hadn't discovered this, i i might have given up. i might have just said, i guess this isn't for me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: or or i guess i'm just i can't do it or i'm not good at it. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: right? Speaker 0: so so let's turn it around then. like yes. what kind of, you know, strengths do neurodivergent people have and can bring to this idea of business building and and marketing and and connecting and communicating, really, because that's what we're talking about. Speaker 1: yeah. i know. i love this part. this part gets me really excited, you know. but i think that, you know, again, a little mini disclaimer is that sometimes the strengths are, like, they're double edged swords. sometimes they also create stress. you know? so for example, one thing that, um, neurodivergence bring is a lot of, um, focus on detail. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1: right? and pattern recognition. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and being able to take that information and then create a concept. you know? um, and that's amazing. that's an amazing skill, you know, when it's applied well. and and then we might focus too much on a detail. right? or go Speaker 0: down a little bit. to procrastination as well because it needs to be perfect into every detail. Speaker 1: yeah. and, you know, i wanna i wanna separate those two things because perfectionism is more under the category of anxiety. mhmm. right? and so when we're dealing with, um, neurodivergence, we we are also experiencing things like anxiety. so it becomes much more challenging, right, when we're dealing with these multiple layers at the same time. you know? but i do think that if we can keep looking at the at what the strengths are in this, you know, like, really deep focus. right? directness and honesty. you know? we don't really like small talk or anything that's not deep, essentially. right? and we'd have a hard time not being honest. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: you know? it really becomes a moral dilemma. and so that's those are things that i think are really beautiful about, um, people under the narrow neurodivergent umbrella. right? there's also the creativity Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and out of the box thinking. Speaker 0: yeah. very much so. mhmm. and i think that's what you really played into it. right? it's like because you have that creative part of yourself and you've figured out how do i bring that to my marketing. i remember back in the days when you used to follow, you know, the these, um, kind of templates of creating canva visuals. yeah. it just all looks the same. let's be honest. right? Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. Speaker 0: and then all of a sudden you started to bring in your art and, you know, more of your pictures and you could tell, wow, she's really having fun with this. and that's the that's the creative side. um, yeah. so much Speaker 1: so for me, i have to change some of the terms. right? and and it kinda maybe speaks to, like, how we market to neurodivergent folk. you know? because if you use the word conversion rate, then my heart rate goes up, and i'm gonna have a shutdown. right? but if you say, how many people, right, or this many people clicked on your site, and then this is what happened after that, then i got it. i can totally follow that pattern. right? so it's again, sometimes the wording, sometimes, uh, too much of a relationship to mathematical concepts or overwhelm, overload. right? that kind of a thing. Speaker 0: basically, concepts that society accepted as being marketing concepts and ideas. Speaker 1: mhmm. Speaker 0: and that you are like, who said that was a concept? like, explain it to me what that means in in, like, full sentences. Speaker 1: yeah. which is very much a lot in the autism range. yeah. you know, like, we really want to know the detail. how did we get there? i really wanna understand the the process. right. right. and then i can really integrate the information. Speaker 0: right. yeah. i get it. yeah. yeah. what i noticed myself doing a lot, um, on the blog is taking some of these old paradigm terms, uh, from marketing, like lead magnet. right? most people have heard of lead magnets. but what does that even mean? like, it's such a weird kind of term where we're sucking people in with a magnet. and so turning that into signposts where we are guiding people to to make a a buying decision, for example, or to come into our world. but i find that i need to use the old word and then juxtaposition it to the new words so that, you know, i can help make that that journey over the bridge, like, to to help people understand, yeah, this is maybe what you've heard, but it doesn't feel good. and so here's an alternative. here's a different word for it. Speaker 1: mhmm. mhmm. Speaker 0: so, uh, i i hear from you that that's helpful. right? like, coming up with new language around marketing that what and then prompts our nervous system as well. Speaker 1: that's right. and so much of the self care is, like, being able to notice that something does create agitation for you. right? and rather than question it or put yourself down for it, it's like, okay. it's just that my nervous system is not liking this for some reason. let's see what what i can do about that. right? Speaker 0: right. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. like, what other things that you have experienced in in business? like, let's think about sales, for example, uh, where you feel like there's been a certain norm. again, these norms. right? that, uh, neurodivergent people are like, i don't get these norms. like but there are some kind of norms. like, let's take a a sales call, uh, that feels very scripted, uh, where you are on the call and you you can cut you've like, what my son always says, he's like, feels like we're in a simulation. not necessarily in a sales call, but i'm sure he would say that if the person just kinda goes blah blah blah through the sales script. and you're like, is he even talking to me? like, is this is this for real? like yeah. Speaker 1: do you Speaker 0: have any other kind of business concept things that you feel like, yeah, that's just not for neurodivergent people. Speaker 1: oh, yeah. i mean, let's start with the scarcity countdowns. Speaker 0: uh, yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: right? what my body does with that is it shuts down. Speaker 0: creates so much anxiety. right? Speaker 1: yeah. absolutely. you know? and for some people, it it it will work, so to speak, you know, quote, unquote. it will create such stress in someone that they'll that they'll buy the the coaching package or, you know, whatever it is. but that's kinda icky. right? and it's the opposite of humane marketing. so that those kinds of things, you know, are not for the neurodivergent. i don't think they're for anybody, but that's my personal opinion. you know? yeah. Speaker 0: my opinion too. Speaker 1: that's why we're here. yeah. right? Speaker 0: another example that comes to mind i don't know if that is still happening, uh, out there. but back in the days, they would have these webinars, huge webinars with tons of people only in the chat. and then they would pretend it's live where it's actually not live. and i would, like, wanted to scream and say, Speaker 1: can't you Speaker 0: guys see that it's not live? like, we know. we're not stupid. we're we know this is not live. yeah. and and yeah. like, i i really just think the bs, uh, meter for neurodivergent people is is, you know, on a different level. Speaker 1: tolerance for it. Speaker 0: zero tolerance for Speaker 1: for and we can smell it from a mile away. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. you know? and there's that transparency and truth telling. right? Speaker 1: yeah. 100%. Speaker 0: 100%. Speaker 1: and so i think that for, uh, neurodivergent folks, like, when they're in business and they're trying to, you know, work on their marketing and their sales, everything about their business just needs to feel safe, you know, in their body. and if it feels a little icky or if it's there's something there, it's like it's really an an invitation to pause and check out what that might be about because you might be going down the path that is not gonna work for you. Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. like, right now, we were talking about from the marketing perspective, and then there's also from the buying perspective. and that's what you were addressing. it's like, how do i want to buy? how that how does it how should it feel in my body, uh, to to want to buy something and make a, you know, a a buying decision? i think what we're addressing is obviously the healed neurodivergent person. and what i'm seeing out there is is kind of this manipulation of the not of the non healed neurodivergent people where there's even more stress applied. and you you kind of mentioned that as well. right? and so they're buying out of anxiety. Speaker 1: that's right. Speaker 0: um, but then if you are the healed neurodivergent person, how how is that an integrity with what you're actually selling? right? yeah. Speaker 1: uh, to be honest, i don't even know what that means because neurodivergence is not something you heal or fix. Speaker 0: true. um, i guess it's just knowing having looked at it. like, would you say that someone who knows so whether it's an official diagnosis or just, you know, having looked at it more deeply, are they more able to deal with this anxiety because they Speaker 1: i mean, it's very it's often very relieving for people. i mean, especially for the adults i work with. right? because most of us have grown up thinking that we're we're not smart or not good enough or, you know, we're dumb at math or, you know, whatever it is. like, all these stories because you were not operating in the same way as other people. so oftentimes, when i work with clients and we move into this looks like a possible diagnosis for you, there's a lot of relief. there's a lot of like, oh, is that why that was so hard? or is that why i couldn't read? or is that why math is hard? or is that why socializing exhausts me? or, you know, whatever it is, it's like it becomes like this unraveling. right? and there's a lot of, you know, there's emotion to that. there's grief and, you know, that kind of a thing. but, you know, once you really embrace, like, this is who i am and you learn to work with your particular flavor, right, of neurodivergence, i i think that you can be very successful at just about anything. i don't, you know, i don't see why i should stand in your way. Speaker 0: and i guess that's what i meant by healed. you know? you just, like, learn who you truly are. and i think that's when you start to say no even more to the things that are not aligned with you. where before, like, what i'm seeing with my son, it's like, well, the pressure from the neuro normal side of the world is so hard that, you know, there's there's more push to know to just have to do what everybody else is doing, and then the anxiety, of course, goes up. and so if if i take this to the marketing thing, it's like, if you have not yet figured out truly who you are and and, you know, really stand with with that, then there's a big risk that you are feeling this anxiety every time you're being sold to or have to market. mhmm. so i guess that's where that pivot is. it's like, no. i'm not taking it anymore. i'm doing marketing my way, or i'm not buying from people who are trying to manipulate me and, you know, push me into scarcity and stuff thing things like that. Speaker 1: absolutely. manipulate me in any way. you know? i mean, one of the things that in general is kinda scary about the coaching world specifically is that it's it's so much based on pain point marketing, you know, and tapping into people's anxiety or stress or whatever it is that's going on and offering some kind of quick fix. Speaker 0: you know? Speaker 1: and it's like it's so unethical when it's so wrong because that's not the way human beings work. Speaker 0: no. yeah. totally. Speaker 1: no? yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. talking about this this coaching world, um, and and these pain points, that's another one of these words that need a a reframe. right? Speaker 1: absolutely. Speaker 0: because, yeah, that's what the old marketing is based on. it's like, let's make the pain points so bad. uh, you know, let's make you feel so shitty that you have to buy my solution. yeah. Speaker 1: it's like it's like it's like pouncing on a little innocent animal or something. you know, that's how how it feels for me. yeah. you know? yeah. no. absolutely not. terrible. Speaker 0: another thing is the the pricing, uh, discussion. yeah. and i think there is also this really need for transparency. can you speak to that? Speaker 1: 100%. that is absolutely necessary. you know, it's kinda what i was saying before even for myself. it's like, i want to know all of the data. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: and i want to know that, like, for myself on my own terms so that i can process it on my own. right? so if somebody doesn't have any pricing on their website, i will likely not work with them. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1: because i need that information upfront. otherwise, i will feel a little anxiety maybe, you know, about the possibility that if i get on a call with you, you might do some of these unethical things or things that just don't work for me and my body. right? like, now you're gonna talk about pricing, and now i have to do it right now, and i'm gonna get all anxious and Speaker 0: no. yeah. Speaker 1: i'm i'm very clear about that part. so, yes, for i think for neurodivergent folks, we want we want all of the information, as much information as you can give us, and then we can make our decision. Speaker 0: yeah. and give me time to make this. Speaker 1: need time. that's right. i don't need pressure. none of that will work. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: none of that will work. Speaker 0: yeah. in in a way, to me, neurodivergent people are, like, super smart, very conscious human beings. and the old way of marketing is taking people for stupid, really. it's like, oh, i can, you know, trick and sleaze you and you will never notice what i'm doing. and neurodivergent people are like, no, i'm not having this at all. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. yeah. that book is awesome. it's a superpower. Speaker 0: yeah, it really is. and in a way, you know, there's to me, there's no surprise that we're seeing more and more neurodivergency because we're really heading into this time of of of sovereignty of each individual being very, very individual, very authentic and very sovereign and and like showing up with that sovereignty and and, yeah, being able to make our own decisions, not just for buying stuff, but for for everything. and i think that's a very yeah. it's a beautiful vision of the world to to think of humans like that. Speaker 1: mhmm. no. i agree. meeting each other on that place. right? Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and having sales conversations in that kind of, um, yeah, with with that basis is a completely different thing than, like i, uh, mentioned before where, you know, i just read a script and don't even care, you know, if we've talked before or whatever. so right. it's just Speaker 1: or i look at you like dollar signs. Speaker 0: oh, yeah. yeah. that's another one. right? Speaker 1: and it's like, i i can't i can't do that. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: i just, like, i physically can't do that. i have to look at you as a person, you know, and and just show you what i have and then give you that agency, you know, to decide whether this is the right fit for you. Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. yeah. sovereignty, agency, beautiful words. Speaker 1: mhmm. yes. yeah. so no pressure, you know, from me. Speaker 0: yeah. what about, you know, other boundaries that you have learned to set for yourself as an entrepreneur, as a marketer, maybe, but but just, yeah, finding that inner peace and being being able to keep showing up without anxiety? Speaker 1: yeah. well, i mean, i think that it could kinda goes back to what i was saying before. right? that to me, the word that comes up is embrace. right? it's not fixed. it's embrace. embrace that this is how your nervous system is wired. right? this is how you were born, and this is how you operate in the world. right? because when we resist, right, it creates tension and stress and anxiety. and i know that's not easy and it takes time, but i think that that's, you know, step one is accept that this is who you are. right? except that, you know, for me, it's like, oh, i don't really want a lot of loud noises or i have to be careful about how much time i spend in group environments or, you know, how much time am i spending in front of my computer or how much time am i spending outside. it's like all of these things around my sensory stuff, my particular version of it and what that looks like for me. but i think that having a lot of boundaries is really important because we need so much more time to recover yeah. of things. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: mhmm. and giving yourself permission to do that. this this is literally a physical thing that is happening to you. and if you push your body past that, that typically doesn't go well. creates more stress. you know? Speaker 0: exactly. it's creating that spaciousness, uh, for you to be human because you are, yeah, a unique human being who has unique needs. yeah. and that's the whole Speaker 1: and you yeah. and you are the only one that can decide, like, what your level of care needs to be. yeah. you're the only one convinced by that. you know? what are your office hours? when do you respond? you know? what are your boundaries with people in your business? what are your boundaries with yourself? Speaker 0: yeah. it actually starts with yourself because otherwise, you're not walking your dog. Speaker 1: right? exactly. exactly. but i think that's the best way that we can, you know, take care of ourselves. and and sometimes we have to, you know, kinda like what your son was saying, it's really hard because sometimes we have to explain these things to people. you know? like, because somebody might look at me and go, but what's the big deal about another evening meeting this week? Speaker 0: yeah. i get that all the time. Speaker 1: yeah. and it's like, well, basically, my head feels like it's gonna explode. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: so that's a no for me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: right? in my body, i do not feel the capacity, the energy at all to do it. yeah. and i will pay a consequence for that. i might, like, be out for a couple days just laying laying around, staring at a wall or something. mhmm. mhmm. just to recover. like, less of, uh, decreasing my stimulation just to be able to recover from overdoing, overstimulating myself. yeah. Speaker 0: let's wrap up with something like positive, a positive outlook on how yeah. the world would look differently if we had all this humane marketing led by neurodivergent people. Speaker 1: that sounds great. businesses according Speaker 0: to the new rules by neurodivergent people. that would not feel look like. Speaker 1: uh, that just makes my heart sore, you know, just to imagine that, you know, because if sensitive people around the world right? and if if our skill set of thinking things through slowing down, you know, really taking the time to make a decision, you know, an informed decision that's rooted in, like, how it feels for you, like, my goodness. the the the possibilities are endless of how the world could change. Speaker 0: it's so different. right? Speaker 1: and i do think that, you know, what gives me hope, you know, in the present is that this next generation of kids and young people have all of this information at their disposal. so my hope, right, is that this generation can grow up not feeling like they're dumb or like there's something wrong with them, that they'll just own that as part of who they are from the very beginning. right? which is the opposite of what i see with so many adults. Speaker 0: you know? Speaker 1: so many of the adults i work with, and we're talking ceos. we're talking big people that are like, oh my goodness. is this what's been going on all this time? you know? but they grew up feeling less than or feeling like they had to mask or feeling like they had to work 10 times harder than everybody else, you know, push themselves. you know? that's just thing. and and they're really feeling the consequence of that Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: in their bodies, in their lives. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: so that's one thing that gives me hope, you know, is that this new generation, it's like, wow. you guys have all of that in your little hands. that's amazing. Speaker 0: yeah. and, also, like, they're just not having it. they're like they look at us, see what we created, and they're like, i'm not having that, that, that. Speaker 1: so why would i do that? Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. like you said, that that gives us lots of hope. yeah. Speaker 1: because there's much more permission. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. well, i think we need to continue this conversation in episode two around just kinda like today, we talked a lot about marketing. maybe we can just talk about entrepreneurship for neurodivergent people because there's a lot of, um, people out there who are, you know, really bringing these new concepts, new ideas. and i think it'd be interesting to continue the conversation. Speaker 1: i think it's actually a really important conversation to have. Speaker 0: yeah. well, for now, why don't you share with people how you work with them, where they can find you, and all of that? Speaker 1: yeah. so, you know, i work both with individuals and groups and organizations. right? so with individuals, it's about, you know, understanding their neurodivergency and if there's any, you know, obstacles related to that, like feeling less than, feeling not good enough, feeling like you have to over perform, you know, whatever the behavior is that, um, interferes, we really look at that and address that so that people can live with, you know, ideally less stress and just feeling better in general about life, you know. and with groups and organizations, i really love to bring in the inclusion component of having neurodivergent folk in your organization because one in four people falls under the neurodivergent umbrella. that's a lot of people. yeah. right? so if you're looking at your organization and and it's hard because it shows up as communication issues a lot of the time or, you know, things that look like performance issues in in an organizational environment when really this person is just struggling with some kind of neurodivergence. and when that's addressed, then they can go they can become a peak performer employee just like everybody else. yeah. yeah. people can find me on my website. they can look for me on linkedin. i'm also on instagram. you know? so and please and Speaker 0: your website is myriammartinezcocoaching.com. correct? Speaker 1: it is. yes. thank you. mhmm. and, yeah, please don't hesitate to reach out around any anything related to neurodivergent. Speaker 0: wonderful. well, to be continued. yeah. thanks so much for, yeah, sharing this. it was amazing. Speaker 1: thank you, sarah.

Neurodivergent Marketing is a real-talk conversation with Myriam Martinez for neurodivergent entrepreneurs who want marketing that fits their nervous system. We unpack why masking turns marketing into performance and how overload and pace create the real friction. We name the trust breakers (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) and offer humane swaps: "signpost" instead of lead magnet, "people who clicked" instead of conversions, and publishing prices, totals, and time needs before any call. Expect consent-led sales calls, boundaries as care, and Neurodivergent strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—as positioning superpowers so people can choose with bodily safety, time, and agency. The outcome: a sustainable, sovereign, and humane way to market. In this episode we discussed: How many of us discover neurodivergence through our families and feel relief naming it. Why masking in life makes "performing" in marketing extra exhausting. That overload and pace are the core friction—not a mindset issue. How old marketing norms (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) violate trust. Reframing jargon into human words: "lead magnet" → "signpost," "conversions" → "people who clicked." Why transparency matters: publish prices, totals, and time needs before any call. How ND strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—become positioning superpowers. That buyers need bodily safety, time, and agency to choose. Why consent-led sales calls beat scripts and simulation. Boundaries as care: limited meetings, clear hours, recovery time after stimulation. Embracing your wiring (not fixing it) reduces anxiety and increases sustainability. A hopeful future: a rising generation that won't tolerate manipulation and leads with sovereignty. Watch this episode on YouTube -- Speaker 0: miriam, it's good to have you back. welcome to the humane marketing podcast. Speaker 1: sarah, i'm so happy to be back on your podcast. Speaker 0: back in my house. right? we just yes. it's just like having a conversation in my house. yes. Speaker 1: yes. exactly. Speaker 0: yeah. so you've been on the show before, but this time we decided to talk about neurodivergent marketing, which is something that i'm super excited about and especially to talk about it with you, um, because you went through this own little transformation and awakening or how would you call it? yeah. Speaker 1: i mean, it's an awakening or rediscovery, you know, in a way of who i am, who i really am at my core, and how that impacts everything that i do. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. because we, uh, worked together a few years back. and back then, it was very much focused on women and well-being, the work that you were doing. and so tell us a little bit how that has changed over the most recent months, year. Speaker 1: yeah. so like most adults, it started with my kids' diagnoses of adhd and becoming more curious about it. you know, i'm a therapist, so i i'm i always understood the diagnosis. you know, i understood it in that way, maybe, like, in a more removed way. but once it was in my home, you know, and i was really living with it, i obviously became much more curious about it. you know? and then it turns out that, you know, my husband is adhd, and it's like, oh, look at them. they're like two peas in a pod. you know? um, and so i started doing more training around this because i wanted to be more supportive for people around this. and quickly, i started to see some traits, you know, show up for me. and for me, it's a really interesting cross between autism and adhd, which there's a term that's floating around out there called adhd. and that's not a diagnosis. right? but it just reflects that there's this cross between these two worlds sometimes. and, you know, we're learning all the time about neurodivergence, you know, and how it shows up and it's so different for everybody. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. thanks for sharing your story. and it kinda went very similarly for me. like for the longest time, we, you know, didn't know, uh, what my son was experiencing. and for i first thought, well, introvert like, back in the days, we just talked about introverts, extroverts. yep. and then all of a sudden this term hsp came up and i discovered, oh, i'm a highly sensitive person. and so i thought, oh, that's probably what he is as well. and and and then, you know, as it kept as we kept discovering more and, you know, thank god we have so much information out there now and youtube videos and all of that. it's it's so helpful. i don't know. well, i guess that's a big reason why back in the days it wasn't discovered. right? i'm pretty sure my dad is autistic, but how would he have known if if there wasn't that much content out there and diagnosis? and and so, yeah, learning it about my son that he's on the spectrum and then pretty sure my husband is too. and and so just, yeah, finding out more and more and and then working with clients who have adhd or, um, you know, our hsps, neurodivergency. and so i think i couldn't think of a better person than you to have this conversation around marketing because that's really what we worked on together as well. and, like, just i remember your expression of frustration around this thing that we call marketing and and how it just, like, your brain was, like, going against it and you're like, no. Speaker 1: in all the ways. yeah. i could not process it. Speaker 0: yeah. exactly. so if we if you maybe think back to that time, but then also just to generalize, what do you think like, why is marketing the old way of marketing? right? why is that so counterintuitive for, uh, people on the neurodivergent spectrum? why do they react like you did? whereas, like, i just don't get it. why would we do this like that? Speaker 1: right. right. no. exactly. um, it's it's multilayered. right? because when we're talking about neurodivergence, we're talking about a variety of different disorders and diagnoses. right? so that could include autism, adhd, dyslexia, dyscalculia, which is, you know, having a hard time with numbers or number concepts, dyspraxia, which is having a lot of uncoordination in your body, right, tourette's. i mean, there's such a list that falls under neurodivergence. so when we talk about these generals, i wanna make sure that i put that disclaimer out there that it's not necessarily applicable to everybody under that umbrella. but that in general, really what it comes down to is sensory overload. like, it's just too much. it's too and and then pace. it's too fast. it's too fast moving. we can't process. i mean, which which is how i started this conversation. right? i was like, i can't process this. it was too much. it was too much. you know? and what's hard when you are experiencing neurodivergence, but you don't know that that's what's happening is that you're comparing yourself to the neurotypical world, which is looking at you like, what's the big deal? yeah. i don't understand what your problem is. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: right? and so i really struggled with my self esteem around my business, for myself. like, can i even do this? because i can't do these things. i'm having a hard time. it's you know? and then you have people telling you it's a mindset issue. you know? and it's like, no. i literally can't understand this concept. right? so it's so much of it is that sensory piece, like i said, and just it's too fast and short deadlines and pressure. and it's just not something that works with the neurodivergent nervous system. we're much more sensitive than that. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. and what i experience also from, you know, when i hear back from clients is is this authenticity piece. so as we know, uh, there's a lot of masking that needs to happen for or not needs to, but is happening for neurodivergent peoples in order to fit in. right? Speaker 1: it's part of survival. Speaker 0: and yeah. exactly. and so and so it almost seems like, well, they have to wear this mask all the time to survive, to fit in. and so they are kind of, like, revolting against having to wear this mask as well in the marketing field and in the business field. it's just, like, so exhausting to to do that. Speaker 1: it's so exhausting. yeah. absolutely. and and i do think that it it's it's 10 times more exhausting when you don't know what's going on. you know? so a lot of the work that i do with adults, right, is help them see that they are probably under this umbrella. right? and we start looking at some of their behaviors, right, and their patterns. and then quickly together, we can identify, oh, yeah. it looks like maybe you're adhd or it looks like maybe you fall under autism or, you know, whatever it is. or maybe there's more than one thing going on, you know, adhd with dyslexia. right? dyscalculia is something that's, you know, relatively new in terms of, um, of a term that's used out there. right? and for me personally, i mean, i think i i'm a i i might have cried when i heard that term. you know? it was like, oh, right. so it's not that i'm dumb. it's not that i'm not a, quote, unquote, math person. like, my brain literally has a hard time processing numbers and number concepts just like a dyslexic can't see letters in the right form. it's the same. Speaker 0: yeah. and here we are, you know, in marketing, keep telling people to not the numbers so much, but the the content i'm thinking of, like, keep creating all this content. well, you know, uh, if you have dyslexia, writing and reading is definitely not part of the things that you enjoy doing. and so, again, if you compare yourself to the neurotypical people, you're you start to think, well, what's wrong with me? how can i how can how come i can't do this? Speaker 1: that's right. and then that really interferes. right? you can see how then that really starts to interfere. yeah. 100%. and for me, in marketing, there's always a lot of talk about budget. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: yeah. and then just the word sends my nervous system into a state, you know. and if you start talking to me about budgets or asking me or start talk throwing any kind of numbers at me in any way, my brain will just completely shut down. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: it just won't it just won't let it in, and you'll probably see a really blank look come across my face. Speaker 0: yeah. but just or or even, like, conversion rates. right? how does that make you feel? Speaker 1: so scary. so scary. Speaker 0: yeah. it's all these metrics, like the the linear linear and kind of like Speaker 1: yeah. that's really, really Speaker 0: masculine way of of doing marketing was all based on on numbers and conversions and Speaker 1: right. Speaker 0: yeah. roi is another one of those terms. you're like, uh. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. totally. and if Speaker 1: i hadn't discovered this, i i might have given up. i might have just said, i guess this isn't for me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: or or i guess i'm just i can't do it or i'm not good at it. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: right? Speaker 0: so so let's turn it around then. like yes. what kind of, you know, strengths do neurodivergent people have and can bring to this idea of business building and and marketing and and connecting and communicating, really, because that's what we're talking about. Speaker 1: yeah. i know. i love this part. this part gets me really excited, you know. but i think that, you know, again, a little mini disclaimer is that sometimes the strengths are, like, they're double edged swords. sometimes they also create stress. you know? so for example, one thing that, um, neurodivergence bring is a lot of, um, focus on detail. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1: right? and pattern recognition. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and being able to take that information and then create a concept. you know? um, and that's amazing. that's an amazing skill, you know, when it's applied well. and and then we might focus too much on a detail. right? or go Speaker 0: down a little bit. to procrastination as well because it needs to be perfect into every detail. Speaker 1: yeah. and, you know, i wanna i wanna separate those two things because perfectionism is more under the category of anxiety. mhmm. right? and so when we're dealing with, um, neurodivergence, we we are also experiencing things like anxiety. so it becomes much more challenging, right, when we're dealing with these multiple layers at the same time. you know? but i do think that if we can keep looking at the at what the strengths are in this, you know, like, really deep focus. right? directness and honesty. you know? we don't really like small talk or anything that's not deep, essentially. right? and we'd have a hard time not being honest. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: you know? it really becomes a moral dilemma. and so that's those are things that i think are really beautiful about, um, people under the narrow neurodivergent umbrella. right? there's also the creativity Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and out of the box thinking. Speaker 0: yeah. very much so. mhmm. and i think that's what you really played into it. right? it's like because you have that creative part of yourself and you've figured out how do i bring that to my marketing. i remember back in the days when you used to follow, you know, the these, um, kind of templates of creating canva visuals. yeah. it just all looks the same. let's be honest. right? Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. Speaker 0: and then all of a sudden you started to bring in your art and, you know, more of your pictures and you could tell, wow, she's really having fun with this. and that's the that's the creative side. um, yeah. so much Speaker 1: so for me, i have to change some of the terms. right? and and it kinda maybe speaks to, like, how we market to neurodivergent folk. you know? because if you use the word conversion rate, then my heart rate goes up, and i'm gonna have a shutdown. right? but if you say, how many people, right, or this many people clicked on your site, and then this is what happened after that, then i got it. i can totally follow that pattern. right? so it's again, sometimes the wording, sometimes, uh, too much of a relationship to mathematical concepts or overwhelm, overload. right? that kind of a thing. Speaker 0: basically, concepts that society accepted as being marketing concepts and ideas. Speaker 1: mhmm. Speaker 0: and that you are like, who said that was a concept? like, explain it to me what that means in in, like, full sentences. Speaker 1: yeah. which is very much a lot in the autism range. yeah. you know, like, we really want to know the detail. how did we get there? i really wanna understand the the process. right. right. and then i can really integrate the information. Speaker 0: right. yeah. i get it. yeah. yeah. what i noticed myself doing a lot, um, on the blog is taking some of these old paradigm terms, uh, from marketing, like lead magnet. right? most people have heard of lead magnets. but what does that even mean? like, it's such a weird kind of term where we're sucking people in with a magnet. and so turning that into signposts where we are guiding people to to make a a buying decision, for example, or to come into our world. but i find that i need to use the old word and then juxtaposition it to the new words so that, you know, i can help make that that journey over the bridge, like, to to help people understand, yeah, this is maybe what you've heard, but it doesn't feel good. and so here's an alternative. here's a different word for it. Speaker 1: mhmm. mhmm. Speaker 0: so, uh, i i hear from you that that's helpful. right? like, coming up with new language around marketing that what and then prompts our nervous system as well. Speaker 1: that's right. and so much of the self care is, like, being able to notice that something does create agitation for you. right? and rather than question it or put yourself down for it, it's like, okay. it's just that my nervous system is not liking this for some reason. let's see what what i can do about that. right? Speaker 0: right. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. like, what other things that you have experienced in in business? like, let's think about sales, for example, uh, where you feel like there's been a certain norm. again, these norms. right? that, uh, neurodivergent people are like, i don't get these norms. like but there are some kind of norms. like, let's take a a sales call, uh, that feels very scripted, uh, where you are on the call and you you can cut you've like, what my son always says, he's like, feels like we're in a simulation. not necessarily in a sales call, but i'm sure he would say that if the person just kinda goes blah blah blah through the sales script. and you're like, is he even talking to me? like, is this is this for real? like yeah. Speaker 1: do you Speaker 0: have any other kind of business concept things that you feel like, yeah, that's just not for neurodivergent people. Speaker 1: oh, yeah. i mean, let's start with the scarcity countdowns. Speaker 0: uh, yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: right? what my body does with that is it shuts down. Speaker 0: creates so much anxiety. right? Speaker 1: yeah. absolutely. you know? and for some people, it it it will work, so to speak, you know, quote, unquote. it will create such stress in someone that they'll that they'll buy the the coaching package or, you know, whatever it is. but that's kinda icky. right? and it's the opposite of humane marketing. so that those kinds of things, you know, are not for the neurodivergent. i don't think they're for anybody, but that's my personal opinion. you know? yeah. Speaker 0: my opinion too. Speaker 1: that's why we're here. yeah. right? Speaker 0: another example that comes to mind i don't know if that is still happening, uh, out there. but back in the days, they would have these webinars, huge webinars with tons of people only in the chat. and then they would pretend it's live where it's actually not live. and i would, like, wanted to scream and say, Speaker 1: can't you Speaker 0: guys see that it's not live? like, we know. we're not stupid. we're we know this is not live. yeah. and and yeah. like, i i really just think the bs, uh, meter for neurodivergent people is is, you know, on a different level. Speaker 1: tolerance for it. Speaker 0: zero tolerance for Speaker 1: for and we can smell it from a mile away. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. you know? and there's that transparency and truth telling. right? Speaker 1: yeah. 100%. Speaker 0: 100%. Speaker 1: and so i think that for, uh, neurodivergent folks, like, when they're in business and they're trying to, you know, work on their marketing and their sales, everything about their business just needs to feel safe, you know, in their body. and if it feels a little icky or if it's there's something there, it's like it's really an an invitation to pause and check out what that might be about because you might be going down the path that is not gonna work for you. Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. like, right now, we were talking about from the marketing perspective, and then there's also from the buying perspective. and that's what you were addressing. it's like, how do i want to buy? how that how does it how should it feel in my body, uh, to to want to buy something and make a, you know, a a buying decision? i think what we're addressing is obviously the healed neurodivergent person. and what i'm seeing out there is is kind of this manipulation of the not of the non healed neurodivergent people where there's even more stress applied. and you you kind of mentioned that as well. right? and so they're buying out of anxiety. Speaker 1: that's right. Speaker 0: um, but then if you are the healed neurodivergent person, how how is that an integrity with what you're actually selling? right? yeah. Speaker 1: uh, to be honest, i don't even know what that means because neurodivergence is not something you heal or fix. Speaker 0: true. um, i guess it's just knowing having looked at it. like, would you say that someone who knows so whether it's an official diagnosis or just, you know, having looked at it more deeply, are they more able to deal with this anxiety because they Speaker 1: i mean, it's very it's often very relieving for people. i mean, especially for the adults i work with. right? because most of us have grown up thinking that we're we're not smart or not good enough or, you know, we're dumb at math or, you know, whatever it is. like, all these stories because you were not operating in the same way as other people. so oftentimes, when i work with clients and we move into this looks like a possible diagnosis for you, there's a lot of relief. there's a lot of like, oh, is that why that was so hard? or is that why i couldn't read? or is that why math is hard? or is that why socializing exhausts me? or, you know, whatever it is, it's like it becomes like this unraveling. right? and there's a lot of, you know, there's emotion to that. there's grief and, you know, that kind of a thing. but, you know, once you really embrace, like, this is who i am and you learn to work with your particular flavor, right, of neurodivergence, i i think that you can be very successful at just about anything. i don't, you know, i don't see why i should stand in your way. Speaker 0: and i guess that's what i meant by healed. you know? you just, like, learn who you truly are. and i think that's when you start to say no even more to the things that are not aligned with you. where before, like, what i'm seeing with my son, it's like, well, the pressure from the neuro normal side of the world is so hard that, you know, there's there's more push to know to just have to do what everybody else is doing, and then the anxiety, of course, goes up. and so if if i take this to the marketing thing, it's like, if you have not yet figured out truly who you are and and, you know, really stand with with that, then there's a big risk that you are feeling this anxiety every time you're being sold to or have to market. mhmm. so i guess that's where that pivot is. it's like, no. i'm not taking it anymore. i'm doing marketing my way, or i'm not buying from people who are trying to manipulate me and, you know, push me into scarcity and stuff thing things like that. Speaker 1: absolutely. manipulate me in any way. you know? i mean, one of the things that in general is kinda scary about the coaching world specifically is that it's it's so much based on pain point marketing, you know, and tapping into people's anxiety or stress or whatever it is that's going on and offering some kind of quick fix. Speaker 0: you know? Speaker 1: and it's like it's so unethical when it's so wrong because that's not the way human beings work. Speaker 0: no. yeah. totally. Speaker 1: no? yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. talking about this this coaching world, um, and and these pain points, that's another one of these words that need a a reframe. right? Speaker 1: absolutely. Speaker 0: because, yeah, that's what the old marketing is based on. it's like, let's make the pain points so bad. uh, you know, let's make you feel so shitty that you have to buy my solution. yeah. Speaker 1: it's like it's like it's like pouncing on a little innocent animal or something. you know, that's how how it feels for me. yeah. you know? yeah. no. absolutely not. terrible. Speaker 0: another thing is the the pricing, uh, discussion. yeah. and i think there is also this really need for transparency. can you speak to that? Speaker 1: 100%. that is absolutely necessary. you know, it's kinda what i was saying before even for myself. it's like, i want to know all of the data. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: and i want to know that, like, for myself on my own terms so that i can process it on my own. right? so if somebody doesn't have any pricing on their website, i will likely not work with them. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1: because i need that information upfront. otherwise, i will feel a little anxiety maybe, you know, about the possibility that if i get on a call with you, you might do some of these unethical things or things that just don't work for me and my body. right? like, now you're gonna talk about pricing, and now i have to do it right now, and i'm gonna get all anxious and Speaker 0: no. yeah. Speaker 1: i'm i'm very clear about that part. so, yes, for i think for neurodivergent folks, we want we want all of the information, as much information as you can give us, and then we can make our decision. Speaker 0: yeah. and give me time to make this. Speaker 1: need time. that's right. i don't need pressure. none of that will work. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: none of that will work. Speaker 0: yeah. in in a way, to me, neurodivergent people are, like, super smart, very conscious human beings. and the old way of marketing is taking people for stupid, really. it's like, oh, i can, you know, trick and sleaze you and you will never notice what i'm doing. and neurodivergent people are like, no, i'm not having this at all. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. yeah. that book is awesome. it's a superpower. Speaker 0: yeah, it really is. and in a way, you know, there's to me, there's no surprise that we're seeing more and more neurodivergency because we're really heading into this time of of of sovereignty of each individual being very, very individual, very authentic and very sovereign and and like showing up with that sovereignty and and, yeah, being able to make our own decisions, not just for buying stuff, but for for everything. and i think that's a very yeah. it's a beautiful vision of the world to to think of humans like that. Speaker 1: mhmm. no. i agree. meeting each other on that place. right? Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and having sales conversations in that kind of, um, yeah, with with that basis is a completely different thing than, like i, uh, mentioned before where, you know, i just read a script and don't even care, you know, if we've talked before or whatever. so right. it's just Speaker 1: or i look at you like dollar signs. Speaker 0: oh, yeah. yeah. that's another one. right? Speaker 1: and it's like, i i can't i can't do that. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: i just, like, i physically can't do that. i have to look at you as a person, you know, and and just show you what i have and then give you that agency, you know, to decide whether this is the right fit for you. Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. yeah. sovereignty, agency, beautiful words. Speaker 1: mhmm. yes. yeah. so no pressure, you know, from me. Speaker 0: yeah. what about, you know, other boundaries that you have learned to set for yourself as an entrepreneur, as a marketer, maybe, but but just, yeah, finding that inner peace and being being able to keep showing up without anxiety? Speaker 1: yeah. well, i mean, i think that it could kinda goes back to what i was saying before. right? that to me, the word that comes up is embrace. right? it's not fixed. it's embrace. embrace that this is how your nervous system is wired. right? this is how you were born, and this is how you operate in the world. right? because when we resist, right, it creates tension and stress and anxiety. and i know that's not easy and it takes time, but i think that that's, you know, step one is accept that this is who you are. right? except that, you know, for me, it's like, oh, i don't really want a lot of loud noises or i have to be careful about how much time i spend in group environments or, you know, how much time am i spending in front of my computer or how much time am i spending outside. it's like all of these things around my sensory stuff, my particular version of it and what that looks like for me. but i think that having a lot of boundaries is really important because we need so much more time to recover yeah. of things. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: mhmm. and giving yourself permission to do that. this this is literally a physical thing that is happening to you. and if you push your body past that, that typically doesn't go well. creates more stress. you know? Speaker 0: exactly. it's creating that spaciousness, uh, for you to be human because you are, yeah, a unique human being who has unique needs. yeah. and that's the whole Speaker 1: and you yeah. and you are the only one that can decide, like, what your level of care needs to be. yeah. you're the only one convinced by that. you know? what are your office hours? when do you respond? you know? what are your boundaries with people in your business? what are your boundaries with yourself? Speaker 0: yeah. it actually starts with yourself because otherwise, you're not walking your dog. Speaker 1: right? exactly. exactly. but i think that's the best way that we can, you know, take care of ourselves. and and sometimes we have to, you know, kinda like what your son was saying, it's really hard because sometimes we have to explain these things to people. you know? like, because somebody might look at me and go, but what's the big deal about another evening meeting this week? Speaker 0: yeah. i get that all the time. Speaker 1: yeah. and it's like, well, basically, my head feels like it's gonna explode. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: so that's a no for me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: right? in my body, i do not feel the capacity, the energy at all to do it. yeah. and i will pay a consequence for that. i might, like, be out for a couple days just laying laying around, staring at a wall or something. mhmm. mhmm. just to recover. like, less of, uh, decreasing my stimulation just to be able to recover from overdoing, overstimulating myself. yeah. Speaker 0: let's wrap up with something like positive, a positive outlook on how yeah. the world would look differently if we had all this humane marketing led by neurodivergent people. Speaker 1: that sounds great. businesses according Speaker 0: to the new rules by neurodivergent people. that would not feel look like. Speaker 1: uh, that just makes my heart sore, you know, just to imagine that, you know, because if sensitive people around the world right? and if if our skill set of thinking things through slowing down, you know, really taking the time to make a decision, you know, an informed decision that's rooted in, like, how it feels for you, like, my goodness. the the the possibilities are endless of how the world could change. Speaker 0: it's so different. right? Speaker 1: and i do think that, you know, what gives me hope, you know, in the present is that this next generation of kids and young people have all of this information at their disposal. so my hope, right, is that this generation can grow up not feeling like they're dumb or like there's something wrong with them, that they'll just own that as part of who they are from the very beginning. right? which is the opposite of what i see with so many adults. Speaker 0: you know? Speaker 1: so many of the adults i work with, and we're talking ceos. we're talking big people that are like, oh my goodness. is this what's been going on all this time? you know? but they grew up feeling less than or feeling like they had to mask or feeling like they had to work 10 times harder than everybody else, you know, push themselves. you know? that's just thing. and and they're really feeling the consequence of that Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: in their bodies, in their lives. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: so that's one thing that gives me hope, you know, is that this new generation, it's like, wow. you guys have all of that in your little hands. that's amazing. Speaker 0: yeah. and, also, like, they're just not having it. they're like they look at us, see what we created, and they're like, i'm not having that, that, that. Speaker 1: so why would i do that? Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. like you said, that that gives us lots of hope. yeah. Speaker 1: because there's much more permission. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. well, i think we need to continue this conversation in episode two around just kinda like today, we talked a lot about marketing. maybe we can just talk about entrepreneurship for neurodivergent people because there's a lot of, um, people out there who are, you know, really bringing these new concepts, new ideas. and i think it'd be interesting to continue the conversation. Speaker 1: i think it's actually a really important conversation to have. Speaker 0: yeah. well, for now, why don't you share with people how you work with them, where they can find you, and all of that? Speaker 1: yeah. so, you know, i work both with individuals and groups and organizations. right? so with individuals, it's about, you know, understanding their neurodivergency and if there's any, you know, obstacles related to that, like feeling less than, feeling not good enough, feeling like you have to over perform, you know, whatever the behavior is that, um, interferes, we really look at that and address that so that people can live with, you know, ideally less stress and just feeling better in general about life, you know. and with groups and organizations, i really love to bring in the inclusion component of having neurodivergent folk in your organization because one in four people falls under the neurodivergent umbrella. that's a lot of people. yeah. right? so if you're looking at your organization and and it's hard because it shows up as communication issues a lot of the time or, you know, things that look like performance issues in in an organizational environment when really this person is just struggling with some kind of neurodivergence. and when that's addressed, then they can go they can become a peak performer employee just like everybody else. yeah. yeah. people can find me on my website. they can look for me on linkedin. i'm also on instagram. you know? so and please and Speaker 0: your website is myriammartinezcocoaching.com. correct? Speaker 1: it is. yes. thank you. mhmm. and, yeah, please don't hesitate to reach out around any anything related to neurodivergent. Speaker 0: wonderful. well, to be continued. yeah. thanks so much for, yeah, sharing this. it was amazing. Speaker 1: thank you, sarah.

In this episode of The Humane Marketing Podcast, I sit down with Sinead Rafferty to explore what leadership looks like for empaths and highly sensitive people in today's fast and complex world. We talk about why empathy is a vital strength in leadership, how the old myths of authority and "loud voices" are giving way to more human-centered approaches, and what unique gifts empaths bring to the table. Sinead also shares the inspiration behind the Empathic Leadership Summit and how themes like self-leadership, professional leadership, and purposeful leadership weave together. If you've ever doubted whether you're a leader, this conversation will help you see leadership through a more humane, grounded, and empowering lens. In this episode we discussed: What leadership means today, in a world that feels so fast, complex, and often overwhelming Why empathy is such a vital part of leadership — both personally and professionally How the idea that leadership requires titles, authority, or being "the loudest in the room" is shifting The unique strengths highly sensitive people and empaths bring to leadership — and why they matter The biggest myths about leadership that deserve to be debunked The inspiration behind the Empathic Leadership Summit, held on Oct 21st – 23rd How the three themes of Self-Leadership, Professional Leadership, and Purposeful Leadership weave together What Purposeful Leadership means to Sinead, and how participants can experience it during the summit Watch this episode on YouTube --- Ep220 Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned business and marketing coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and my new book, business like we're human. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. you want to make a difference with your work. you are just starting out or have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you, or you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane.marketing forward slash program. marketing like we're human runs usually in late january and february and june. and if you feel like you're already doing a good job with the marketing, but it's the selling that you're struggling with, i'm now adding a new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. this will also run twice per year in an intimate cohort to get the most out of it. find out more about this program at humane.marketing/howtosell. this program usually runs in april and november. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. whether it's for your marketing, your sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like creating a group program or writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that's joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/coaching. thank you so much for letting me share my offerings with excitement. and now onto the show. Speaker 3: hello, friends. welcome back to another episode. today's conversation fits under the p of personal power. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and you don't know what i'm talking about, well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane.marketing/ one page. that's the number one and the word page. and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. today, i'm speaking to sinead rafferty about empathic leadership. before i tell you a bit more about sinead, allow me to mention that i'm still booking human conversations in my serene garden. these are terms that i'm using in the selling like we're human book. and if you've looked at the sales page of the program, how to sell in 2026 and beyond, uh, that you can find at humane.marketing/howtosell. and if you're interested in selling more in 2026, who isn't, but also really want to sell differently, then let's have a chat to find out if this is the right fit for you at this time. we start on november 13, and it will be a small and safe group and a beta round for this first edition. okay. back to the show. so sinead rafferty is a career and alignment coach on a mission to empower highly sensitive people, hsps, empaths, deep thinkers, and divergent minds to thrive in life, work, and leadership. her alignment coaching brings identity, energy, and purpose into harmony so clients can live and lead authentically. from that foundation, she integrates career and business strategy, turning inner clarity into practical roadmap for meaningful contribution and growth. with over seventeen years experience in personal development, leadership, and business strategy, sinead combines empathy and intuition, psychology and innovative coaching techniques to guide clients in turning sensitivity and their natural skills into powerful assets for authentic leadership and purposeful impact. sinead lives on ireland's northwest coast with her husband and two children, loves travel, music, and wild winter walks by the atlantic. here's what we talked about in this episode. what leadership means today in a world that feels so fast, complex, and often overwhelming. why empathy is such a vital part of leadership, both personally and professionally. how the idea that leadership requires titles, authority, or being the loudest in the room is shifting. the unique strengths highly sensitive people and empaths bring to leadership and why they matter. the biggest myths about leadership that deserve to be debunked. the inspiration behind the empathic leadership summit, which is held on october 21 till twenty third. and how the three themes of self leadership, professional leadership, and purposeful leadership weave together, and finally, what purposeful leadership means to sinead and how participants can experience it during the summit. i'll be talking about business like we're human on day two. that is all about professional leadership. so i really hope you will join us for this empathic leadership summit. you can sign up at humane.marketing/leadershipsummit. but now without further ado, let's listen to sinead and i talking about empathic leadership. Speaker 0: shanae, it's so good to see you and have you on the podcast. welcome. Speaker 1: thank you, sarah. such an honor to be here, honestly. thanks a million. Speaker 0: yeah. it's so good. and we're collaborating on something. right? and so i thought, well, why not have you on the podcast and talk about empathic leadership? because that's the the topic of this episode, and it's also the topic, um, um, and the title of your upcoming summit. and i mentioned that in the intro and we'll mention it again because we really invite people to join us for these conversations that i think are so key right now. but let's dive in. uh, and yeah, let me ask you first, like, what does leadership mean to you given, you know, the current world situation? and then what does empathic leadership mean? Speaker 1: well, it's a good question. i think it's important that we ask ourselves, what is the definition of leadership? you know? um, and i think what we're witnessing on the world stage today, um, means it's even more important that we ask that question, you know? um, i believe that leadership is, or at least i hope it is moving towards something that is more about connection than it is about control. um, you know, the ability to hold space for people in a very complex scenario, a complex world that we live in. you know? i think that's really important. um, and the only way to do that is to is to feed empathy through. so so that leadership, um, is redefined with empathy at its core. you know, that it becomes completely normal, that empathy is there at its core. and that begins with self awareness. it begins with knowing our own values and our own energy and our own purpose. um, so we can come from a grounded place. and then it's about humanity, isn't it? i mean, ultimately, it's about humanity. it's about recognizing that people thrive when they feel safe, psychologically safe, when they see when they feel seen and heard, um, and not just managed. you know? um, it's so important that we're leaders in our own lives, that we can make our own decisions because i think that it's the habits in our own lives. you know, we're so drawn in by social media and things like that. and those daily habits are what that's feeding into keeping the wrong people in charge. Speaker 0: do you Speaker 1: know what i mean? so it definitely starts with self leadership. you know? Speaker 0: yes. yeah. i love that. yeah. and i think what you brought up there is this topic of sovereignty. right? the self leadership, sovereignty, and and and why that is so important right now. and i like how you said we don't wanna be managed. yeah. that's exactly how it feels like. it feels like we're, you know, a bunch of sheep being somehow managed to do this, do that. and and we've yeah. we just are tired of that. but that means that, yeah, we need to come from this inner awareness and this inner sovereignty, uh, and and not just show up as sheep. right? because i think there there is that as well, people who just are so used to be managed. and then there's, uh, people like the people that we're trying to attract to the summit who are ready to step into leadership, whether that is self leadership or or purposeful leadership out there. um, when you talk about empathy, why why is empathy so so key in today's world? and and why, you know, i i think that's not what we're seeing as an example Speaker 1: opposed to to us sensitives, you know, or us empaths. um, but what empathy does, it it it connects to your needs and your motivations and your values. so that's like for yourself and for others. so it connects you to other people. and in doing that, i think it creates a sense of inclusion where people feel heard and they feel understood. and from there, you can build trust with people. and from there, you can build productivity and success. i mean, there's study after study that shows that the more trust and the more inclusion and the more safety people feel in the workplace, the more engagement that the companies get, uh, and then the more successful they become. um, so it's there. like, the evidence is there. it drives performance if that's what your priority is. um, it shows that the teams led with empathy are more engaged. they're more resilient. they're more innovative. you know? like, the writings on the walls, i don't know why it's disappeared. it's the foundation of relationships without a doubt, um, because without empathy, leadership, as you say, is kind of transactional, isn't it, instead of being for the people. so it's like that, you know, the sheep are following and the leader is just doing whatever they want. i mean, that doesn't make any sense at all for the people. you know? so hopefully, we're, as a collective, waking up to that. you know? because if you think about leadership without empathy, um, you're ignoring people's values. you're ignoring people's motivations, and you're ignoring their needs. um, and if you do that for long enough, what happens to the people? you you know what i mean? they begin to revolt, i hope. and i think that's maybe what we're beginning to see globally. Speaker 0: hopefully. yes. yeah. mhmm. yeah. yeah. exactly. it's like when we're watching the world stage, we have a really hard time finding empathy and leadership. and and also, um, i was just referring to an email exchange i i had with someone when i shared the summit. they wrote back it was miriam who wrote back to me and said, you know, it's interesting that leadership to me just kind of, like, meant male and very authoritarian. right? Speaker 1: yeah. there you go. Speaker 0: that's that's, uh, kind of like how we've grown up, uh, to think of leaders. uh, they're they're male and they're very, you know, aggressive and and, yeah, authoritarian. and so it is time for us to redefine leadership, i really think. and and and just adding that little word, empathic, in front of it, well, that that says it all. yeah. it does. it says Speaker 1: it all, and it actually brings it. you know, i i kind of sometimes say this isn't rocket science. it's human nature, and it brings people back to just being human, um, instead of being so influenced by by the the crazy narrative that people are being fed. you know? mhmm. so, definitely, i mean, it's it's interesting to hear that from miriam, um, because it's true. there's that sense of, like, well, there's only a certain character perhaps or temperament can be a leader. Speaker 0: mhmm. you Speaker 1: know, kind of there's a bravado to it perhaps or it's loud or extroverted only, you know, and that couldn't be farther from the truth. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. so if we think about empaths and highly sensitive and and neurodivergent, uh, people, it it does feel like there's not enough role models. because, you know, you take elon musk. yeah. he might be neurodivergent, but he's the opposite of an empath. right? and so, uh, it can be intimidating to kind of feel yeah. feel called into leadership because of the wrong role models. so how how do you see this changing and what yeah. what's the conversation that needs to be had? Speaker 1: well, i think, you know, a lot of the work that i do with with highly sensitive and empaths is the first step is self validation. so a lot of hsps, highly sensitive people and empaths, have grown up, um, feeling that they're they're wrong somehow, that they're weaker somehow. so we need to change that belief. we need to validate the incredible skills that we have and recognize them as being that bit different to that traditional bravado loud leader. you know? yeah. like, the skills that are there innately. you know? authenticity, sensitivity, adaptability, empathy, all come so naturally, um, that it's just about having that little bit of courage to be seen, that courage to find your voice, to be able to offer these incredible innate skills that we have. and they're plentiful. you know? and this is why i always kind of include neurodiversity in the conversation because neurodiversity is everyone. so that includes hsps and empaths, which is my focus. right? but we are wired differently, so we come under that umbrella as well. everyone does. um, so, like, what we're offering in terms of, you know, cultural sensitivity or attention to detail or, um, the vision and depth we bring to the conversation, you know, we naturally create the psychological safety that people need. like, it's all there already. i think we just have to find that courage to step up if we can. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. courage is a big word. right? yeah. because it it does yeah. it does need a lot of bravery to, yeah, to step up and speak up. and i think it it helps to know that you're not alone. uh, and and that's why a summit is is great. right? to feel like, oh, Speaker 1: i'm not Speaker 0: the only hsp. i'm not the only empath who who feels this inner calling because oftentimes as hsps, we we really want to work on impact. right? but it's it's sometimes, like, there's a lot of ambition and there's not always the energy, uh, because a lot of times, you know, we need to really learn how to balance our energy. but to have a group together who's like, no, but we can do it and we can do it in a different way, in a maybe more gentler, quieter way. uh, yeah, that's just really, really encouraging. Speaker 1: yeah. a 100%. like the sense of community is, is so important in this summit. you know, it's about bringing people together and it's about building momentum year on year. i've kind of committed in my head to an annual event so that we can grow that network and grow that community. um, and just to pick up on what you said, like, the work that i do, i base it on kind of three aspects. i call it the alignment code. and one is identity and feeling empowered in who you are. one is energy flow and energy management. and then i bring in strategy. and i think what a lot of people are trying to do is jump to strategy and they don't they haven't taken the time to ground in who they are to truly empower themselves and to manage their energy flow and their state. once they've appreciated that their energy flow is different to to to what they maybe have seen all of their lives and to that neurotypical, uh, example that we've always had. Speaker 0: yeah. i'm so glad you bring that up. i have a um, presentation coming up at the at a conference in stockholm next week or two weeks. and and i already know, uh, like, okay. this is gonna take a lot of energy, so i'm definitely not gonna attend the mingle after, you know, like, i need to, i need to somehow be able to find that quiet space and refill my batteries. but, um, i see it with my son right now. he's he's, um, autistic. and, and, you know, it's really hard. we we just found out he's in his twenties, and it's really hard for him to balance, um, you know, having fun with his friends, going out, and then being completely depleted and exhausted. and so it's something you need to learn and yeah. absolutely. sometimes you need a coach or somebody Speaker 1: to help. you can't walk the path alone. none of us can. that's the thing. um, i refer to that as the sensitivity spiral because we kind of expect ourselves to be able to bounce back or recover or wake up kind of reset like you might see, you know, a neurotypical man, you know, who has a twenty four hour hormonal cycle. you know what i mean? it doesn't apply to everyone. and you often need to have that sense of, like, okay. what did i do yesterday? because that is gonna affect how i am today, and how i am today will feed into tomorrow. so that's a real awareness that's required. and i, you know, i would help people reach an optimal energy flow for them as an individual. no one size fits all. Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and, and that's hard in your twenties because all you want is to be like everybody else. Speaker 1: yeah. oh, it's very hard in your twenties. yeah. like, i mean, i didn't have this sussed in my twenties. i know that for sure. yeah. um, and the extremes are more when you're younger, aren't they? and the the crazy nights out or whatever it might be. um, yeah. absolutely. it's it's very challenging for for for younger people. that's for sure. Speaker 0: so let's talk about the the summit, um, a little bit. um, there's there's three main themes. and how do they what are they and how do they weave together? Speaker 1: um, okay. so, um, i came together with my cohosts, linda bins and teresa behan, and we had a good discussion about how we can make a a summit that is sensitive, friendly, if you like. right? that is paced in such a way that isn't overwhelming, that people can choose what they want to attend on the day. they can also have the replays for a certain period of time, etcetera. so, uh, because i think sometimes when you go to a summit, it's just talk after talk after talk. and i did learn from last year, so i'm learning each year, um, that, yeah, it's better to to have less is more, basically. do you know what i mean? so yeah. we decided to have three themes for three days. and those themes are self leadership, which is day one, and that is all about, as i've said already a little bit, the foundation of everything, knowing yourself and your energy, your values, how to nourish yourself, how to manage your energy, um, and design the life that you truly want. then on day two, we're looking at professional leadership. so that's like, okay, how do we bring that to the professional settings, to the workplace, or to business? uh, reframing what leadership might look like in those settings, um, making business and the workplace more humane where you're gonna be stepping in there on day two. and then, um, purposeful leadership is day three. that's kind of the bigger picture, um, kind of like the the why of it all. so if self leadership is about self, professional leadership is about how we're doing it, and then purposeful leadership is why we're doing it. you know? why is it so important for us to do this? so that's kind of the thinking behind the three the three themes. Speaker 0: i love that. and you're leading day three. right? purposeful leadership. Speaker 1: yeah. yes. indeed. Speaker 0: so what's your presentation or or, yeah, topic going to be? Speaker 1: um, so so this is the piece about the courage. right? so my talk itself is about the courage to be seen, voice, and visibility. um, and i touch on the evolutionary kind of aspect of sensitive leaders and hsps in general. um, i've kinda been saying this for many years, uh, that your purpose, whoever you are out there listening, has meaning. your calling has meaning. your your drive, whatever drive that you have to achieve something specific, you have that drive for a reason. and i truly believe that, you know? mhmm. so i think for me, when it comes to purposeful leadership, it's kind of like looking beyond what we already know. and there's a a narrative out there around, um, the evolutionary aspect of, say, sensitivity or the evolutionary aspect of neurodiversity and the advantages to society that that different perspectives are offering up, you know. um, for example, you might have pattern recognition, more cognitive complexity, memory skills, and heightened perception, heightened sensitivity. and i believe that we're at a point where those skills need a chance to shine, you know? so that's why i try to empower my clients in recognizing those innate skills before they try to do any strategizing Speaker 0: in terms Speaker 1: of what they want to achieve. you know? so that's kind of what i'm covering, uh, on on day three. Speaker 0: i love that. yeah. and and it's so true that the recognizing the uniqueness and and and also pointing out how these specific skills are so important in the time we're in right now. and that's why there's so much courage needed. Speaker 1: right? yeah. exactly. so well put. exactly. you know, it all ties in. um, we we we need to find a way to kind of be okay with being seen. because for a lot of hsps and empaths in particular, the sense of being seen, of being visible, um, is a sense of exposure often. you know what i mean? and we don't we don't want that. we don't like that, and i relate to that personally. so it's kind of like bringing ourselves to a place of psychological safety so that we can then lead others. Speaker 0: yeah. mm. so good. i can't wait. yeah. it's it really sounds like every day has its purpose and is very unique. yeah. yeah. i think so. what do you hope for participants to, to, to take away and come away with after the three days? Speaker 1: so i'm kind of the eternal optimist always. right. so i just want them to feel empowered. i want them to feel like they're not alone. like you mentioned that there's a community there that we can help each other, that we can support one another and understand one another. i want them to walk away with a sense of possibility and with hope. i think we need more hope these days, right? and we we we can all do our part however small in feeding into to that hope. um, so i hope they they i hope they get a sense of clarity, a sense of confidence in their own way of leading in their own lives. i hope that they can pick up practical tools and ideas around, um, business practices, building connections, managing energy, and then the the inspire. i hope they i hope they'll be inspired. i hope that they will feel inspired, that they have a place, and that we have a role to play, um, in this crazy world today. Speaker 0: amazing. yeah. and i hope, yeah, that they have the courage to really show up and speak up. and in my talk, i kind of specifically talk about intrepreneurs. so people in companies, but that have this entrepreneurial spirit and, and really feel like, feel called to change. uh, and so, yeah, i just really, with all my heart, hope that they will get the inspiration to to speak up and and change things. Speaker 1: yeah. i hope so. um, yeah. i love intrapreneurs. i've worked with many of them as well. and i always love, um, the idea of, you know i always say to the entrepreneur, you know, if there's no box on the hierarchy of the company for there, then you need to aim to to aim for the day where they have to create a box for you. you know? because i had a client once where they had to create a box because they just couldn't categorize what he was able to do. um, and i was just it was such a celebration, uh, the day that he told me they've created me a Speaker 0: new box as a priority. and i Speaker 1: was like, yes, that's it. you know, that's impactful. that's purposeful, for sure. Speaker 0: wonderful. well, why don't you tell people again where they can sign up the exact dates? and, and then if people listen to this, you know, after it already happened, maybe they can still sign up for the replays. they can still sign up for next year as well. Speaker 1: yeah, exactly for next year. so this year, the format is that it's, um, free to attend with fourteen days replays, and then there is a vip upgrade if you want to have the sessions, you know, for lifetime access or whatever. um, and that includes bonuses including some time with ourselves, you know, some coaching sessions. um, so you can sign up the website itself. um, maybe we'll link it below. it's not as nifty, i suppose, as i would like it to be. um, it's empathic leadership summit, but it's it's it's there's a heyessummit.com on it. so i'll just put the link below, um, in the show notes if that's okay because i don't wanna confuse people. um, yeah. so i i really hope that people sign up, that they join us. you know, join the movement. let's redefine leadership together with empathy, um, at the heart of everything. Speaker 0: yeah. um, yeah. it's so much more than a summit. right? and and i mentioned in the email that i sent out to my subscribers, i'm like, i'm very picky with what kind of summits i speak at. um, and what i like about this is that it really feels more like a movement. and it's also, you know, it's not overwhelming. it's three days. it's only 12 speakers. like, sometimes i get invited and there's 36 speakers. we're like crazy, crazy amount of overwhelm. so yeah. Speaker 1: that's yeah. Speaker 0: i'm really Speaker 1: glad. huge level of energy when yeah. Speaker 0: when you Speaker 1: have things like that. and i think that as hsps, our brains just attach then, don't we? we can't quite engage because Speaker 0: it's Speaker 1: just it's just too much, too overwhelming. so yeah. i am honored that you were joining the empathic leadership summit, uh, an absolute honor that you're with us for that as a speaker. sarah, thank you so much. Speaker 0: yeah. thank you. and mention also your website. people want to work, uh, directly with you. Speaker 1: yeah. so all all the information about my work is on sineadraffertycoaching.com, rafferty.com. um, um, shayraftertycoaching.com. so on there, um, i think the best place to start is i have a free mini course. it's called embracing the gift of high sensitivity. um, and that's a really great place to start. that's where the self validation lies. so if anyone's interested, they can sign up for that. Speaker 0: wonderful. well, i can't wait. very much look forward to it. thank you, shanay. Speaker 1: thanks, sarah. thank you so much. Speaker 4: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode, and i really encourage you to step into courage. you can find out more about sinead at sineadraffertycoaching.com. and most importantly, if you're listening to this episode before 10/21/2025, do join us for the empathic leadership summit. i think it's gonna be great. you can sign up at humane.marketing/leadershipsummit. i just created a pretty link, but i'm not receiving an affiliate commission. i just really believe in sinead and this work. you find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm200andtwenty. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books. sorry. my three books, marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. go be the change you want to see in the world. see you soon.

In this episode of The Humane Marketing Podcast, I sit down with Sinead Rafferty to explore what leadership looks like for empaths and highly sensitive people in today's fast and complex world. We talk about why empathy is a vital strength in leadership, how the old myths of authority and “loud voices” are giving way to more human-centered approaches, and what unique gifts empaths bring to the table. Sinead also shares the inspiration behind the Empathic Leadership Summit and how themes like self-leadership, professional leadership, and purposeful leadership weave together. If you've ever doubted whether you're a leader, this conversation will help you see leadership through a more humane, grounded, and empowering lens. In this episode we discussed: What leadership means today, in a world that feels so fast, complex, and often overwhelming Why empathy is such a vital part of leadership — both personally and professionally How the idea that leadership requires titles, authority, or being “the loudest in the room” is shifting The unique strengths highly sensitive people and empaths bring to leadership — and why they matter The biggest myths about leadership that deserve to be debunked The inspiration behind the Empathic Leadership Summit, held on Oct 21st – 23rd How the three themes of Self-Leadership, Professional Leadership, and Purposeful Leadership weave together What Purposeful Leadership means to Sinead, and how participants can experience it during the summit Watch this episode on YouTube --- Ep220  Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned business and marketing coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and my new book, business like we're human. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. you want to make a difference with your work. you are just starting out or have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you, or you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane.marketing forward slash program. marketing like we're human runs usually in late january and february and june. and if you feel like you're already doing a good job with the marketing, but it's the selling that you're struggling with, i'm now adding a new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. this will also run twice per year in an intimate cohort to get the most out of it. find out more about this program at humane.marketing/howtosell. this program usually runs in april and november. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. whether it's for your marketing, your sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like creating a group program or writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that's joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/coaching. thank you so much for letting me share my offerings with excitement. and now onto the show.  Speaker 3: hello, friends. welcome back to another episode. today's conversation fits under the p of personal power. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and you don't know what i'm talking about, well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane.marketing/ one page. that's the number one and the word page. and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. today, i'm speaking to sinead rafferty about empathic leadership. before i tell you a bit more about sinead, allow me to mention that i'm still booking human conversations in my serene garden. these are terms that i'm using in the selling like we're human book. and if you've looked at the sales page of the program, how to sell in 2026 and beyond, uh, that you can find at humane.marketing/howtosell. and if you're interested in selling more in 2026, who isn't, but also really want to sell differently, then let's have a chat to find out if this is the right fit for you at this time. we start on november 13, and it will be a small and safe group and a beta round for this first edition. okay. back to the show. so sinead rafferty is a career and alignment coach on a mission to empower highly sensitive people, hsps, empaths, deep thinkers, and divergent minds to thrive in life, work, and leadership. her alignment coaching brings identity, energy, and purpose into harmony so clients can live and lead authentically. from that foundation, she integrates career and business strategy, turning inner clarity into practical roadmap for meaningful contribution and growth. with over seventeen years experience in personal development, leadership, and business strategy, sinead combines empathy and intuition, psychology and innovative coaching techniques to guide clients in turning sensitivity and their natural skills into powerful assets for authentic leadership and purposeful impact. sinead lives on ireland's northwest coast with her husband and two children, loves travel, music, and wild winter walks by the atlantic. here's what we talked about in this episode. what leadership means today in a world that feels so fast, complex, and often overwhelming. why empathy is such a vital part of leadership, both personally and professionally. how the idea that leadership requires titles, authority, or being the loudest in the room is shifting. the unique strengths highly sensitive people and empaths bring to leadership and why they matter. the biggest myths about leadership that deserve to be debunked. the inspiration behind the empathic leadership summit, which is held on october 21 till twenty third. and how the three themes of self leadership, professional leadership, and purposeful leadership weave together, and finally, what purposeful leadership means to sinead and how participants can experience it during the summit. i'll be talking about business like we're human on day two. that is all about professional leadership. so i really hope you will join us for this empathic leadership summit. you can sign up at humane.marketing/leadershipsummit. but now without further ado, let's listen to sinead and i talking about empathic leadership.  Speaker 0: shanae, it's so good to see you and have you on the podcast. welcome.  Speaker 1: thank you, sarah. such an honor to be here, honestly. thanks a million.  Speaker 0: yeah. it's so good. and we're collaborating on something. right? and so i thought, well, why not have you on the podcast and talk about empathic leadership? because that's the the topic of this episode, and it's also the topic, um, um, and the title of your upcoming summit. and i mentioned that in the intro and we'll mention it again because we really invite people to join us for these conversations that i think are so key right now. but let's dive in. uh, and yeah, let me ask you first, like, what does leadership mean to you given, you know, the current world situation? and then what does empathic leadership mean?  Speaker 1: well, it's a good question. i think it's important that we ask ourselves, what is the definition of leadership? you know? um, and i think what we're witnessing on the world stage today, um, means it's even more important that we ask that question, you know? um, i believe that leadership is, or at least i hope it is moving towards something that is more about connection than it is about control. um, you know, the ability to hold space for people in a very complex scenario, a complex world that we live in. you know? i think that's really important. um, and the only way to do that is to is to feed empathy through. so so that leadership, um, is redefined with empathy at its core. you know, that it becomes completely normal, that empathy is there at its core. and that begins with self awareness. it begins with knowing our own values and our own energy and our own purpose. um, so we can come from a grounded place. and then it's about humanity, isn't it? i mean, ultimately, it's about humanity. it's about recognizing that people thrive when they feel safe, psychologically safe, when they see when they feel seen and heard, um, and not just managed. you know? um, it's so important that we're leaders in our own lives, that we can make our own decisions because i think that it's the habits in our own lives. you know, we're so drawn in by social media and things like that. and those daily habits are what that's feeding into keeping the wrong people in charge.  Speaker 0: do you  Speaker 1: know what i mean? so it definitely starts with self leadership. you know?  Speaker 0: yes. yeah. i love that. yeah. and i think what you brought up there is this topic of sovereignty. right? the self leadership, sovereignty, and and and why that is so important right now. and i like how you said we don't wanna be managed. yeah. that's exactly how it feels like. it feels like we're, you know, a bunch of sheep being somehow managed to do this, do that. and and we've yeah. we just are tired of that. but that means that, yeah, we need to come from this inner awareness and this inner sovereignty, uh, and and not just show up as sheep. right? because i think there there is that as well, people who just are so used to be managed. and then there's, uh, people like the people that we're trying to attract to the summit who are ready to step into leadership, whether that is self leadership or or purposeful leadership out there. um, when you talk about empathy, why why is empathy so so key in today's world? and and why, you know, i i think that's not what we're seeing as an example  Speaker 1: opposed to to us sensitives, you know, or us empaths. um, but what empathy does, it it it connects to your needs and your motivations and your values. so that's like for yourself and for others. so it connects you to other people. and in doing that, i think it creates a sense of inclusion where people feel heard and they feel understood. and from there, you can build trust with people. and from there, you can build productivity and success. i mean, there's study after study that shows that the more trust and the more inclusion and the more safety people feel in the workplace, the more engagement that the companies get, uh, and then the more successful they become. um, so it's there. like, the evidence is there. it drives performance if that's what your priority is. um, it shows that the teams led with empathy are more engaged. they're more resilient. they're more innovative. you know? like, the writings on the walls, i don't know why it's disappeared. it's the foundation of relationships without a doubt, um, because without empathy, leadership, as you say, is kind of transactional, isn't it, instead of being for the people. so it's like that, you know, the sheep are following and the leader is just doing whatever they want. i mean, that doesn't make any sense at all for the people. you know? so hopefully, we're, as a collective, waking up to that. you know? because if you think about leadership without empathy, um, you're ignoring people's values. you're ignoring people's motivations, and you're ignoring their needs. um, and if you do that for long enough, what happens to the people? you you know what i mean? they begin to revolt, i hope. and i think that's maybe what we're beginning to see globally.  Speaker 0: hopefully. yes. yeah. mhmm. yeah. yeah. exactly. it's like when we're watching the world stage, we have a really hard time finding empathy and leadership. and and also, um, i was just referring to an email exchange i i had with someone when i shared the summit. they wrote back it was miriam who wrote back to me and said, you know, it's interesting that leadership to me just kind of, like, meant male and very authoritarian. right?  Speaker 1: yeah. there you go.  Speaker 0: that's that's, uh, kind of like how we've grown up, uh, to think of leaders. uh, they're they're male and they're very, you know, aggressive and and, yeah, authoritarian. and so it is time for us to redefine leadership, i really think. and and and just adding that little word, empathic, in front of it, well, that that says it all. yeah. it does. it says  Speaker 1: it all, and it actually brings it. you know, i i kind of sometimes say this isn't rocket science. it's human nature, and it brings people back to just being human, um, instead of being so influenced by by the the crazy narrative that people are being fed. you know? mhmm. so, definitely, i mean, it's it's interesting to hear that from miriam, um, because it's true. there's that sense of, like, well, there's only a certain character perhaps or temperament can be a leader.  Speaker 0: mhmm. you  Speaker 1: know, kind of there's a bravado to it perhaps or it's loud or extroverted only, you know, and that couldn't be farther from the truth.  Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. so if we think about empaths and highly sensitive and and neurodivergent, uh, people, it it does feel like there's not enough role models. because, you know, you take elon musk. yeah. he might be neurodivergent, but he's the opposite of an empath. right? and so, uh, it can be intimidating to kind of feel yeah. feel called into leadership because of the wrong role models. so how how do you see this changing and what yeah. what's the conversation that needs to be had?  Speaker 1: well, i think, you know, a lot of the work that i do with with highly sensitive and empaths is the first step is self validation. so a lot of hsps, highly sensitive people and empaths, have grown up, um, feeling that they're they're wrong somehow, that they're weaker somehow. so we need to change that belief. we need to validate the incredible skills that we have and recognize them as being that bit different to that traditional bravado loud leader. you know? yeah. like, the skills that are there innately. you know? authenticity, sensitivity, adaptability, empathy, all come so naturally, um, that it's just about having that little bit of courage to be seen, that courage to find your voice, to be able to offer these incredible innate skills that we have. and they're plentiful. you know? and this is why i always kind of include neurodiversity in the conversation because neurodiversity is everyone. so that includes hsps and empaths, which is my focus. right? but we are wired differently, so we come under that umbrella as well. everyone does. um, so, like, what we're offering in terms of, you know, cultural sensitivity or attention to detail or, um, the vision and depth we bring to the conversation, you know, we naturally create the psychological safety that people need. like, it's all there already. i think we just have to find that courage to step up if we can.  Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. courage is a big word. right? yeah. because it it does yeah. it does need a lot of bravery to, yeah, to step up and speak up. and i think it it helps to know that you're not alone. uh, and and that's why a summit is is great. right? to feel like, oh,  Speaker 1: i'm not  Speaker 0: the only hsp. i'm not the only empath who who feels this inner calling because oftentimes as hsps, we we really want to work on impact. right? but it's it's sometimes, like, there's a lot of ambition and there's not always the energy, uh, because a lot of times, you know, we need to really learn how to balance our energy. but to have a group together who's like, no, but we can do it and we can do it in a different way, in a maybe more gentler, quieter way. uh, yeah, that's just really, really encouraging.  Speaker 1: yeah. a 100%. like the sense of community is, is so important in this summit. you know, it's about bringing people together and it's about building momentum year on year. i've kind of committed in my head to an annual event so that we can grow that network and grow that community. um, and just to pick up on what you said, like, the work that i do, i base it on kind of three aspects. i call it the alignment code. and one is identity and feeling empowered in who you are. one is energy flow and energy management. and then i bring in strategy. and i think what a lot of people are trying to do is jump to strategy and they don't they haven't taken the time to ground in who they are to truly empower themselves and to manage their energy flow and their state. once they've appreciated that their energy flow is different to to to what they maybe have seen all of their lives and to that neurotypical, uh, example that we've always had.  Speaker 0: yeah. i'm so glad you bring that up. i have a um, presentation coming up at the at a conference in stockholm next week or two weeks. and and i already know, uh, like, okay. this is gonna take a lot of energy, so i'm definitely not gonna attend the mingle after, you know, like, i need to, i need to somehow be able to find that quiet space and refill my batteries. but, um, i see it with my son right now. he's he's, um, autistic. and, and, you know, it's really hard. we we just found out he's in his twenties, and it's really hard for him to balance, um, you know, having fun with his friends, going out, and then being completely depleted and exhausted. and so it's something you need to learn and yeah. absolutely. sometimes you need a coach or somebody  Speaker 1: to help. you can't walk the path alone. none of us can. that's the thing. um, i refer to that as the sensitivity spiral because we kind of expect ourselves to be able to bounce back or recover or wake up kind of reset like you might see, you know, a neurotypical man, you know, who has a twenty four hour hormonal cycle. you know what i mean? it doesn't apply to everyone. and you often need to have that sense of, like, okay. what did i do yesterday? because that is gonna affect how i am today, and how i am today will feed into tomorrow. so that's a real awareness that's required. and i, you know, i would help people reach an optimal energy flow for them as an individual. no one size fits all.  Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and, and that's hard in your twenties because all you want is to be like everybody else.  Speaker 1: yeah. oh, it's very hard in your twenties. yeah. like, i mean, i didn't have this sussed in my twenties. i know that for sure. yeah. um, and the extremes are more when you're younger, aren't they? and the the crazy nights out or whatever it might be. um, yeah. absolutely. it's it's very challenging for for for younger people. that's for sure.  Speaker 0: so let's talk about the the summit, um, a little bit. um, there's there's three main themes. and how do they what are they and how do they weave together?  Speaker 1: um, okay. so, um, i came together with my cohosts, linda bins and teresa behan, and we had a good discussion about how we can make a a summit that is sensitive, friendly, if you like. right? that is paced in such a way that isn't overwhelming, that people can choose what they want to attend on the day. they can also have the replays for a certain period of time, etcetera. so, uh, because i think sometimes when you go to a summit, it's just talk after talk after talk. and i did learn from last year, so i'm learning each year, um, that, yeah, it's better to to have less is more, basically. do you know what i mean? so yeah. we decided to have three themes for three days. and those themes are self leadership, which is day one, and that is all about, as i've said already a little bit, the foundation of everything, knowing yourself and your energy, your values, how to nourish yourself, how to manage your energy, um, and design the life that you truly want. then on day two, we're looking at professional leadership. so that's like, okay, how do we bring that to the professional settings, to the workplace, or to business? uh, reframing what leadership might look like in those settings, um, making business and the workplace more humane where you're gonna be stepping in there on day two. and then, um, purposeful leadership is day three. that's kind of the bigger picture, um, kind of like the the why of it all. so if self leadership is about self, professional leadership is about how we're doing it, and then purposeful leadership is why we're doing it. you know? why is it so important for us to do this? so that's kind of the thinking behind the three the three themes.  Speaker 0: i love that. and you're leading day three. right? purposeful leadership.  Speaker 1: yeah. yes. indeed.  Speaker 0: so what's your presentation or or, yeah, topic going to be?  Speaker 1: um, so so this is the piece about the courage. right? so my talk itself is about the courage to be seen, voice, and visibility. um, and i touch on the evolutionary kind of aspect of sensitive leaders and hsps in general. um, i've kinda been saying this for many years, uh, that your purpose, whoever you are out there listening, has meaning. your calling has meaning. your your drive, whatever drive that you have to achieve something specific, you have that drive for a reason. and i truly believe that, you know? mhmm. so i think for me, when it comes to purposeful leadership, it's kind of like looking beyond what we already know. and there's a a narrative out there around, um, the evolutionary aspect of, say, sensitivity or the evolutionary aspect of neurodiversity and the advantages to society that that different perspectives are offering up, you know. um, for example, you might have pattern recognition, more cognitive complexity, memory skills, and heightened perception, heightened sensitivity. and i believe that we're at a point where those skills need a chance to shine, you know? so that's why i try to empower my clients in recognizing those innate skills before they try to do any strategizing  Speaker 0: in terms  Speaker 1: of what they want to achieve. you know? so that's kind of what i'm covering, uh, on on day three.  Speaker 0: i love that. yeah. and and it's so true that the recognizing the uniqueness and and and also pointing out how these specific skills are so important in the time we're in right now. and that's why there's so much courage needed.  Speaker 1: right? yeah. exactly. so well put. exactly. you know, it all ties in. um, we we we need to find a way to kind of be okay with being seen. because for a lot of hsps and empaths in particular, the sense of being seen, of being visible, um, is a sense of exposure often. you know what i mean? and we don't we don't want that. we don't like that, and i relate to that personally. so it's kind of like bringing ourselves to a place of psychological safety so that we can then lead others.  Speaker 0: yeah. mm. so good. i can't wait. yeah. it's it really sounds like every day has its purpose and is very unique. yeah. yeah. i think so. what do you hope for participants to, to, to take away and come away with after the three days?  Speaker 1: so i'm kind of the eternal optimist always. right. so i just want them to feel empowered. i want them to feel like they're not alone. like you mentioned that there's a community there that we can help each other, that we can support one another and understand one another. i want them to walk away with a sense of possibility and with hope. i think we need more hope these days, right? and we we we can all do our part however small in feeding into to that hope. um, so i hope they they i hope they get a sense of clarity, a sense of confidence in their own way of leading in their own lives. i hope that they can pick up practical tools and ideas around, um, business practices, building connections, managing energy, and then the the inspire. i hope they i hope they'll be inspired. i hope that they will feel inspired, that they have a place, and that we have a role to play, um, in this crazy world today.  Speaker 0: amazing. yeah. and i hope, yeah, that they have the courage to really show up and speak up. and in my talk, i kind of specifically talk about intrepreneurs. so people in companies, but that have this entrepreneurial spirit and, and really feel like, feel called to change. uh, and so, yeah, i just really, with all my heart, hope that they will get the inspiration to to speak up and and change things.  Speaker 1: yeah. i hope so. um, yeah. i love intrapreneurs. i've worked with many of them as well. and i always love, um, the idea of, you know i always say to the entrepreneur, you know, if there's no box on the hierarchy of the company for there, then you need to aim to to aim for the day where they have to create a box for you. you know? because i had a client once where they had to create a box because they just couldn't categorize what he was able to do. um, and i was just it was such a celebration, uh, the day that he told me they've created me a  Speaker 0: new box as a priority. and i  Speaker 1: was like, yes, that's it. you know, that's impactful. that's purposeful, for sure.  Speaker 0: wonderful. well, why don't you tell people again where they can sign up the exact dates? and, and then if people listen to this, you know, after it already happened, maybe they can still sign up for the replays. they can still sign up for next year as well.  Speaker 1: yeah, exactly for next year. so this year, the format is that it's, um, free to attend with fourteen days replays, and then there is a vip upgrade if you want to have the sessions, you know, for lifetime access or whatever. um, and that includes bonuses including some time with ourselves, you know, some coaching sessions. um, so you can sign up the website itself. um, maybe we'll link it below. it's not as nifty, i suppose, as i would like it to be. um, it's empathic leadership summit, but it's it's it's there's a heyessummit.com on it. so i'll just put the link below, um, in the show notes if that's okay because i don't wanna confuse people. um, yeah. so i i really hope that people sign up, that they join us. you know, join the movement. let's redefine leadership together with empathy, um, at the heart of everything.  Speaker 0: yeah. um, yeah. it's so much more than a summit. right? and and i mentioned in the email that i sent out to my subscribers, i'm like, i'm very picky with what kind of summits i speak at. um, and what i like about this is that it really feels more like a movement. and it's also, you know, it's not overwhelming. it's three days. it's only 12 speakers. like, sometimes i get invited and there's 36 speakers. we're like crazy, crazy amount of overwhelm. so yeah.  Speaker 1: that's yeah.  Speaker 0: i'm really  Speaker 1: glad. huge level of energy when yeah.  Speaker 0: when you  Speaker 1: have things like that. and i think that as hsps, our brains just attach then, don't we? we can't quite engage because  Speaker 0: it's  Speaker 1: just it's just too much, too overwhelming. so yeah. i am honored that you were joining the empathic leadership summit, uh, an absolute honor that you're with us for that as a speaker. sarah, thank you so much.  Speaker 0: yeah. thank you. and mention also your website. people want to work, uh, directly with you.  Speaker 1: yeah. so all all the information about my work is on sineadraffertycoaching.com, rafferty.com. um, um, shayraftertycoaching.com. so on there, um, i think the best place to start is i have a free mini course. it's called embracing the gift of high sensitivity. um, and that's a really great place to start. that's where the self validation lies. so if anyone's interested, they can sign up for that.  Speaker 0: wonderful. well, i can't wait. very much look forward to it. thank you, shanay.  Speaker 1: thanks, sarah. thank you so much.  Speaker 4: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode, and i really encourage you to step into courage. you can find out more about sinead at sineadraffertycoaching.com. and most importantly, if you're listening to this episode before 10/21/2025, do join us for the empathic leadership summit. i think it's gonna be great. you can sign up at humane.marketing/leadershipsummit. i just created a pretty link, but i'm not receiving an affiliate commission. i just really believe in sinead and this work. you find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm200andtwenty. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books. sorry. my three books, marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. go be the change you want to see in the world. see you soon. 

In this episode of The Humane Marketing Podcast, I sit down with Sinead Rafferty to explore what leadership looks like for empaths and highly sensitive people in today's fast and complex world. We talk about why empathy is a vital strength in leadership, how the old myths of authority and "loud voices" are giving way to more human-centered approaches, and what unique gifts empaths bring to the table. Sinead also shares the inspiration behind the Empathic Leadership Summit and how themes like self-leadership, professional leadership, and purposeful leadership weave together. If you've ever doubted whether you're a leader, this conversation will help you see leadership through a more humane, grounded, and empowering lens. In this episode we discussed: What leadership means today, in a world that feels so fast, complex, and often overwhelming Why empathy is such a vital part of leadership — both personally and professionally How the idea that leadership requires titles, authority, or being "the loudest in the room" is shifting The unique strengths highly sensitive people and empaths bring to leadership — and why they matter The biggest myths about leadership that deserve to be debunked The inspiration behind the Empathic Leadership Summit, held on Oct 21st – 23rd How the three themes of Self-Leadership, Professional Leadership, and Purposeful Leadership weave together What Purposeful Leadership means to Sinead, and how participants can experience it during the summit Watch this episode on YouTube --- Ep220 Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned business and marketing coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and my new book, business like we're human. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. you want to make a difference with your work. you are just starting out or have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you, or you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane.marketing forward slash program. marketing like we're human runs usually in late january and february and june. and if you feel like you're already doing a good job with the marketing, but it's the selling that you're struggling with, i'm now adding a new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. this will also run twice per year in an intimate cohort to get the most out of it. find out more about this program at humane.marketing/howtosell. this program usually runs in april and november. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. whether it's for your marketing, your sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like creating a group program or writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that's joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/coaching. thank you so much for letting me share my offerings with excitement. and now onto the show. Speaker 3: hello, friends. welcome back to another episode. today's conversation fits under the p of personal power. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and you don't know what i'm talking about, well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane.marketing/ one page. that's the number one and the word page. and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. today, i'm speaking to sinead rafferty about empathic leadership. before i tell you a bit more about sinead, allow me to mention that i'm still booking human conversations in my serene garden. these are terms that i'm using in the selling like we're human book. and if you've looked at the sales page of the program, how to sell in 2026 and beyond, uh, that you can find at humane.marketing/howtosell. and if you're interested in selling more in 2026, who isn't, but also really want to sell differently, then let's have a chat to find out if this is the right fit for you at this time. we start on november 13, and it will be a small and safe group and a beta round for this first edition. okay. back to the show. so sinead rafferty is a career and alignment coach on a mission to empower highly sensitive people, hsps, empaths, deep thinkers, and divergent minds to thrive in life, work, and leadership. her alignment coaching brings identity, energy, and purpose into harmony so clients can live and lead authentically. from that foundation, she integrates career and business strategy, turning inner clarity into practical roadmap for meaningful contribution and growth. with over seventeen years experience in personal development, leadership, and business strategy, sinead combines empathy and intuition, psychology and innovative coaching techniques to guide clients in turning sensitivity and their natural skills into powerful assets for authentic leadership and purposeful impact. sinead lives on ireland's northwest coast with her husband and two children, loves travel, music, and wild winter walks by the atlantic. here's what we talked about in this episode. what leadership means today in a world that feels so fast, complex, and often overwhelming. why empathy is such a vital part of leadership, both personally and professionally. how the idea that leadership requires titles, authority, or being the loudest in the room is shifting. the unique strengths highly sensitive people and empaths bring to leadership and why they matter. the biggest myths about leadership that deserve to be debunked. the inspiration behind the empathic leadership summit, which is held on october 21 till twenty third. and how the three themes of self leadership, professional leadership, and purposeful leadership weave together, and finally, what purposeful leadership means to sinead and how participants can experience it during the summit. i'll be talking about business like we're human on day two. that is all about professional leadership. so i really hope you will join us for this empathic leadership summit. you can sign up at humane.marketing/leadershipsummit. but now without further ado, let's listen to sinead and i talking about empathic leadership. Speaker 0: shanae, it's so good to see you and have you on the podcast. welcome. Speaker 1: thank you, sarah. such an honor to be here, honestly. thanks a million. Speaker 0: yeah. it's so good. and we're collaborating on something. right? and so i thought, well, why not have you on the podcast and talk about empathic leadership? because that's the the topic of this episode, and it's also the topic, um, um, and the title of your upcoming summit. and i mentioned that in the intro and we'll mention it again because we really invite people to join us for these conversations that i think are so key right now. but let's dive in. uh, and yeah, let me ask you first, like, what does leadership mean to you given, you know, the current world situation? and then what does empathic leadership mean? Speaker 1: well, it's a good question. i think it's important that we ask ourselves, what is the definition of leadership? you know? um, and i think what we're witnessing on the world stage today, um, means it's even more important that we ask that question, you know? um, i believe that leadership is, or at least i hope it is moving towards something that is more about connection than it is about control. um, you know, the ability to hold space for people in a very complex scenario, a complex world that we live in. you know? i think that's really important. um, and the only way to do that is to is to feed empathy through. so so that leadership, um, is redefined with empathy at its core. you know, that it becomes completely normal, that empathy is there at its core. and that begins with self awareness. it begins with knowing our own values and our own energy and our own purpose. um, so we can come from a grounded place. and then it's about humanity, isn't it? i mean, ultimately, it's about humanity. it's about recognizing that people thrive when they feel safe, psychologically safe, when they see when they feel seen and heard, um, and not just managed. you know? um, it's so important that we're leaders in our own lives, that we can make our own decisions because i think that it's the habits in our own lives. you know, we're so drawn in by social media and things like that. and those daily habits are what that's feeding into keeping the wrong people in charge. Speaker 0: do you Speaker 1: know what i mean? so it definitely starts with self leadership. you know? Speaker 0: yes. yeah. i love that. yeah. and i think what you brought up there is this topic of sovereignty. right? the self leadership, sovereignty, and and and why that is so important right now. and i like how you said we don't wanna be managed. yeah. that's exactly how it feels like. it feels like we're, you know, a bunch of sheep being somehow managed to do this, do that. and and we've yeah. we just are tired of that. but that means that, yeah, we need to come from this inner awareness and this inner sovereignty, uh, and and not just show up as sheep. right? because i think there there is that as well, people who just are so used to be managed. and then there's, uh, people like the people that we're trying to attract to the summit who are ready to step into leadership, whether that is self leadership or or purposeful leadership out there. um, when you talk about empathy, why why is empathy so so key in today's world? and and why, you know, i i think that's not what we're seeing as an example Speaker 1: opposed to to us sensitives, you know, or us empaths. um, but what empathy does, it it it connects to your needs and your motivations and your values. so that's like for yourself and for others. so it connects you to other people. and in doing that, i think it creates a sense of inclusion where people feel heard and they feel understood. and from there, you can build trust with people. and from there, you can build productivity and success. i mean, there's study after study that shows that the more trust and the more inclusion and the more safety people feel in the workplace, the more engagement that the companies get, uh, and then the more successful they become. um, so it's there. like, the evidence is there. it drives performance if that's what your priority is. um, it shows that the teams led with empathy are more engaged. they're more resilient. they're more innovative. you know? like, the writings on the walls, i don't know why it's disappeared. it's the foundation of relationships without a doubt, um, because without empathy, leadership, as you say, is kind of transactional, isn't it, instead of being for the people. so it's like that, you know, the sheep are following and the leader is just doing whatever they want. i mean, that doesn't make any sense at all for the people. you know? so hopefully, we're, as a collective, waking up to that. you know? because if you think about leadership without empathy, um, you're ignoring people's values. you're ignoring people's motivations, and you're ignoring their needs. um, and if you do that for long enough, what happens to the people? you you know what i mean? they begin to revolt, i hope. and i think that's maybe what we're beginning to see globally. Speaker 0: hopefully. yes. yeah. mhmm. yeah. yeah. exactly. it's like when we're watching the world stage, we have a really hard time finding empathy and leadership. and and also, um, i was just referring to an email exchange i i had with someone when i shared the summit. they wrote back it was miriam who wrote back to me and said, you know, it's interesting that leadership to me just kind of, like, meant male and very authoritarian. right? Speaker 1: yeah. there you go. Speaker 0: that's that's, uh, kind of like how we've grown up, uh, to think of leaders. uh, they're they're male and they're very, you know, aggressive and and, yeah, authoritarian. and so it is time for us to redefine leadership, i really think. and and and just adding that little word, empathic, in front of it, well, that that says it all. yeah. it does. it says Speaker 1: it all, and it actually brings it. you know, i i kind of sometimes say this isn't rocket science. it's human nature, and it brings people back to just being human, um, instead of being so influenced by by the the crazy narrative that people are being fed. you know? mhmm. so, definitely, i mean, it's it's interesting to hear that from miriam, um, because it's true. there's that sense of, like, well, there's only a certain character perhaps or temperament can be a leader. Speaker 0: mhmm. you Speaker 1: know, kind of there's a bravado to it perhaps or it's loud or extroverted only, you know, and that couldn't be farther from the truth. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. so if we think about empaths and highly sensitive and and neurodivergent, uh, people, it it does feel like there's not enough role models. because, you know, you take elon musk. yeah. he might be neurodivergent, but he's the opposite of an empath. right? and so, uh, it can be intimidating to kind of feel yeah. feel called into leadership because of the wrong role models. so how how do you see this changing and what yeah. what's the conversation that needs to be had? Speaker 1: well, i think, you know, a lot of the work that i do with with highly sensitive and empaths is the first step is self validation. so a lot of hsps, highly sensitive people and empaths, have grown up, um, feeling that they're they're wrong somehow, that they're weaker somehow. so we need to change that belief. we need to validate the incredible skills that we have and recognize them as being that bit different to that traditional bravado loud leader. you know? yeah. like, the skills that are there innately. you know? authenticity, sensitivity, adaptability, empathy, all come so naturally, um, that it's just about having that little bit of courage to be seen, that courage to find your voice, to be able to offer these incredible innate skills that we have. and they're plentiful. you know? and this is why i always kind of include neurodiversity in the conversation because neurodiversity is everyone. so that includes hsps and empaths, which is my focus. right? but we are wired differently, so we come under that umbrella as well. everyone does. um, so, like, what we're offering in terms of, you know, cultural sensitivity or attention to detail or, um, the vision and depth we bring to the conversation, you know, we naturally create the psychological safety that people need. like, it's all there already. i think we just have to find that courage to step up if we can. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. courage is a big word. right? yeah. because it it does yeah. it does need a lot of bravery to, yeah, to step up and speak up. and i think it it helps to know that you're not alone. uh, and and that's why a summit is is great. right? to feel like, oh, Speaker 1: i'm not Speaker 0: the only hsp. i'm not the only empath who who feels this inner calling because oftentimes as hsps, we we really want to work on impact. right? but it's it's sometimes, like, there's a lot of ambition and there's not always the energy, uh, because a lot of times, you know, we need to really learn how to balance our energy. but to have a group together who's like, no, but we can do it and we can do it in a different way, in a maybe more gentler, quieter way. uh, yeah, that's just really, really encouraging. Speaker 1: yeah. a 100%. like the sense of community is, is so important in this summit. you know, it's about bringing people together and it's about building momentum year on year. i've kind of committed in my head to an annual event so that we can grow that network and grow that community. um, and just to pick up on what you said, like, the work that i do, i base it on kind of three aspects. i call it the alignment code. and one is identity and feeling empowered in who you are. one is energy flow and energy management. and then i bring in strategy. and i think what a lot of people are trying to do is jump to strategy and they don't they haven't taken the time to ground in who they are to truly empower themselves and to manage their energy flow and their state. once they've appreciated that their energy flow is different to to to what they maybe have seen all of their lives and to that neurotypical, uh, example that we've always had. Speaker 0: yeah. i'm so glad you bring that up. i have a um, presentation coming up at the at a conference in stockholm next week or two weeks. and and i already know, uh, like, okay. this is gonna take a lot of energy, so i'm definitely not gonna attend the mingle after, you know, like, i need to, i need to somehow be able to find that quiet space and refill my batteries. but, um, i see it with my son right now. he's he's, um, autistic. and, and, you know, it's really hard. we we just found out he's in his twenties, and it's really hard for him to balance, um, you know, having fun with his friends, going out, and then being completely depleted and exhausted. and so it's something you need to learn and yeah. absolutely. sometimes you need a coach or somebody Speaker 1: to help. you can't walk the path alone. none of us can. that's the thing. um, i refer to that as the sensitivity spiral because we kind of expect ourselves to be able to bounce back or recover or wake up kind of reset like you might see, you know, a neurotypical man, you know, who has a twenty four hour hormonal cycle. you know what i mean? it doesn't apply to everyone. and you often need to have that sense of, like, okay. what did i do yesterday? because that is gonna affect how i am today, and how i am today will feed into tomorrow. so that's a real awareness that's required. and i, you know, i would help people reach an optimal energy flow for them as an individual. no one size fits all. Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and, and that's hard in your twenties because all you want is to be like everybody else. Speaker 1: yeah. oh, it's very hard in your twenties. yeah. like, i mean, i didn't have this sussed in my twenties. i know that for sure. yeah. um, and the extremes are more when you're younger, aren't they? and the the crazy nights out or whatever it might be. um, yeah. absolutely. it's it's very challenging for for for younger people. that's for sure. Speaker 0: so let's talk about the the summit, um, a little bit. um, there's there's three main themes. and how do they what are they and how do they weave together? Speaker 1: um, okay. so, um, i came together with my cohosts, linda bins and teresa behan, and we had a good discussion about how we can make a a summit that is sensitive, friendly, if you like. right? that is paced in such a way that isn't overwhelming, that people can choose what they want to attend on the day. they can also have the replays for a certain period of time, etcetera. so, uh, because i think sometimes when you go to a summit, it's just talk after talk after talk. and i did learn from last year, so i'm learning each year, um, that, yeah, it's better to to have less is more, basically. do you know what i mean? so yeah. we decided to have three themes for three days. and those themes are self leadership, which is day one, and that is all about, as i've said already a little bit, the foundation of everything, knowing yourself and your energy, your values, how to nourish yourself, how to manage your energy, um, and design the life that you truly want. then on day two, we're looking at professional leadership. so that's like, okay, how do we bring that to the professional settings, to the workplace, or to business? uh, reframing what leadership might look like in those settings, um, making business and the workplace more humane where you're gonna be stepping in there on day two. and then, um, purposeful leadership is day three. that's kind of the bigger picture, um, kind of like the the why of it all. so if self leadership is about self, professional leadership is about how we're doing it, and then purposeful leadership is why we're doing it. you know? why is it so important for us to do this? so that's kind of the thinking behind the three the three themes. Speaker 0: i love that. and you're leading day three. right? purposeful leadership. Speaker 1: yeah. yes. indeed. Speaker 0: so what's your presentation or or, yeah, topic going to be? Speaker 1: um, so so this is the piece about the courage. right? so my talk itself is about the courage to be seen, voice, and visibility. um, and i touch on the evolutionary kind of aspect of sensitive leaders and hsps in general. um, i've kinda been saying this for many years, uh, that your purpose, whoever you are out there listening, has meaning. your calling has meaning. your your drive, whatever drive that you have to achieve something specific, you have that drive for a reason. and i truly believe that, you know? mhmm. so i think for me, when it comes to purposeful leadership, it's kind of like looking beyond what we already know. and there's a a narrative out there around, um, the evolutionary aspect of, say, sensitivity or the evolutionary aspect of neurodiversity and the advantages to society that that different perspectives are offering up, you know. um, for example, you might have pattern recognition, more cognitive complexity, memory skills, and heightened perception, heightened sensitivity. and i believe that we're at a point where those skills need a chance to shine, you know? so that's why i try to empower my clients in recognizing those innate skills before they try to do any strategizing Speaker 0: in terms Speaker 1: of what they want to achieve. you know? so that's kind of what i'm covering, uh, on on day three. Speaker 0: i love that. yeah. and and it's so true that the recognizing the uniqueness and and and also pointing out how these specific skills are so important in the time we're in right now. and that's why there's so much courage needed. Speaker 1: right? yeah. exactly. so well put. exactly. you know, it all ties in. um, we we we need to find a way to kind of be okay with being seen. because for a lot of hsps and empaths in particular, the sense of being seen, of being visible, um, is a sense of exposure often. you know what i mean? and we don't we don't want that. we don't like that, and i relate to that personally. so it's kind of like bringing ourselves to a place of psychological safety so that we can then lead others. Speaker 0: yeah. mm. so good. i can't wait. yeah. it's it really sounds like every day has its purpose and is very unique. yeah. yeah. i think so. what do you hope for participants to, to, to take away and come away with after the three days? Speaker 1: so i'm kind of the eternal optimist always. right. so i just want them to feel empowered. i want them to feel like they're not alone. like you mentioned that there's a community there that we can help each other, that we can support one another and understand one another. i want them to walk away with a sense of possibility and with hope. i think we need more hope these days, right? and we we we can all do our part however small in feeding into to that hope. um, so i hope they they i hope they get a sense of clarity, a sense of confidence in their own way of leading in their own lives. i hope that they can pick up practical tools and ideas around, um, business practices, building connections, managing energy, and then the the inspire. i hope they i hope they'll be inspired. i hope that they will feel inspired, that they have a place, and that we have a role to play, um, in this crazy world today. Speaker 0: amazing. yeah. and i hope, yeah, that they have the courage to really show up and speak up. and in my talk, i kind of specifically talk about intrepreneurs. so people in companies, but that have this entrepreneurial spirit and, and really feel like, feel called to change. uh, and so, yeah, i just really, with all my heart, hope that they will get the inspiration to to speak up and and change things. Speaker 1: yeah. i hope so. um, yeah. i love intrapreneurs. i've worked with many of them as well. and i always love, um, the idea of, you know i always say to the entrepreneur, you know, if there's no box on the hierarchy of the company for there, then you need to aim to to aim for the day where they have to create a box for you. you know? because i had a client once where they had to create a box because they just couldn't categorize what he was able to do. um, and i was just it was such a celebration, uh, the day that he told me they've created me a Speaker 0: new box as a priority. and i Speaker 1: was like, yes, that's it. you know, that's impactful. that's purposeful, for sure. Speaker 0: wonderful. well, why don't you tell people again where they can sign up the exact dates? and, and then if people listen to this, you know, after it already happened, maybe they can still sign up for the replays. they can still sign up for next year as well. Speaker 1: yeah, exactly for next year. so this year, the format is that it's, um, free to attend with fourteen days replays, and then there is a vip upgrade if you want to have the sessions, you know, for lifetime access or whatever. um, and that includes bonuses including some time with ourselves, you know, some coaching sessions. um, so you can sign up the website itself. um, maybe we'll link it below. it's not as nifty, i suppose, as i would like it to be. um, it's empathic leadership summit, but it's it's it's there's a heyessummit.com on it. so i'll just put the link below, um, in the show notes if that's okay because i don't wanna confuse people. um, yeah. so i i really hope that people sign up, that they join us. you know, join the movement. let's redefine leadership together with empathy, um, at the heart of everything. Speaker 0: yeah. um, yeah. it's so much more than a summit. right? and and i mentioned in the email that i sent out to my subscribers, i'm like, i'm very picky with what kind of summits i speak at. um, and what i like about this is that it really feels more like a movement. and it's also, you know, it's not overwhelming. it's three days. it's only 12 speakers. like, sometimes i get invited and there's 36 speakers. we're like crazy, crazy amount of overwhelm. so yeah. Speaker 1: that's yeah. Speaker 0: i'm really Speaker 1: glad. huge level of energy when yeah. Speaker 0: when you Speaker 1: have things like that. and i think that as hsps, our brains just attach then, don't we? we can't quite engage because Speaker 0: it's Speaker 1: just it's just too much, too overwhelming. so yeah. i am honored that you were joining the empathic leadership summit, uh, an absolute honor that you're with us for that as a speaker. sarah, thank you so much. Speaker 0: yeah. thank you. and mention also your website. people want to work, uh, directly with you. Speaker 1: yeah. so all all the information about my work is on sineadraffertycoaching.com, rafferty.com. um, um, shayraftertycoaching.com. so on there, um, i think the best place to start is i have a free mini course. it's called embracing the gift of high sensitivity. um, and that's a really great place to start. that's where the self validation lies. so if anyone's interested, they can sign up for that. Speaker 0: wonderful. well, i can't wait. very much look forward to it. thank you, shanay. Speaker 1: thanks, sarah. thank you so much. Speaker 4: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode, and i really encourage you to step into courage. you can find out more about sinead at sineadraffertycoaching.com. and most importantly, if you're listening to this episode before 10/21/2025, do join us for the empathic leadership summit. i think it's gonna be great. you can sign up at humane.marketing/leadershipsummit. i just created a pretty link, but i'm not receiving an affiliate commission. i just really believe in sinead and this work. you find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm200andtwenty. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books. sorry. my three books, marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. go be the change you want to see in the world. see you soon.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, I sit down with Megan Warren to explore how we can use AI not just wisely, but with heart. Together, we talk about what excites us, what concerns us, and how reconnecting with ourselves through inner development can help us navigate this powerful technology ethically. We explore how presence, awareness, and emotional intelligence can guide better decisions, and what AI might reveal if it acted as a mirror reflecting our collective inner state. Whether you're curious, cautious, or deeply engaged with AI, this conversation offers inspiration and practical steps to help changemakers and heart-centered entrepreneurs align technology with their values and create positive impact. This conversation will inspire you to create aligned, impactful partnerships that strengthen both your business and the change you want to see in the world. In this episode we discussed: Megan's personal and professional journey with AI and what first sparked her curiosity about AI for good. The rapid growth of AI—what excites Megan most and what worries her about its potential impact on our humanity. How reconnecting with ourselves through the Inner Development Goals can help us use AI ethically and wisely. Ways humans can ensure AI serves as a force for good rather than reinforcing harm or inequality. How cultivating presence, self-awareness and empathy can lead to better decisions when working with AI. The role of inner development in driving societal change in a world shaped by AI. What AI might reveal if it acted as a mirror reflecting our collective inner state. One small, practical action listeners can take to integrate inner development into their use of AI this week. Watch this episode on YouTube -- Ep 219 Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned business and marketing coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and my new book, business like we're human. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. you want to make a difference with your work. you are just starting out or have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you, or you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane.marketing forward slash program. marketing like we're human runs usually in late january and february and june. and if you feel like you're already doing a good job with the marketing, but it's the selling that you're struggling with, i'm now adding a new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. this will also run twice per year in an intimate cohort to get the most out of it. find out more about this program at humane.marketing/howtosell. this program usually runs in april and november. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. whether it's for your marketing, your sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like creating a group program or writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that's joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/coaching. thank you so much for letting me share my offerings with excitement. and now onto the show. Speaker 4: hello, friends. welcome back. today's conversation fits under the p of partnership of the humane marketing mandala. and i'm putting it under partnership because i really see ai as a business partner. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. one of them is partnership. and if you're new here, you probably don't know what i'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane.marketing/1page. that's the number one and the word page. it comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. so today, i'm talking to megan warren, and our topic is ai for good. i'll tell you more about megan in just a minute, but first, just a little plug about my upcoming new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. i'm super excited about this program that starts on november 13. maybe you've heard my episodes with carrie dobson where we discussed the program in-depth. and if not, you can go back to them. there's seven of them, and we really just went through all the details. in summary, this is a five week small group program based on my book, selling like we're human, and also integrating new information about your human design so you can truly sell from who you are. and that's why i'm so excited because it really is the new way of selling that i see coming in in 2026 and beyond. you can find out more at humane.marketing/howtosell, and book a conversation with me if you're curious to join or are wondering if it's the right fit for you. and, you know, maybe you don't know whether you should focus more on marketing or or selling. well, let's talk about it. we get started on november 13, and this beta cohort is extra special because i'm co leading it with carrie who will join us for the whole length of the program. just another, uh, example of collaboration that i'm so fond of. okay. back to megan and ai for good. so let me tell you a bit more about megan. megan helps change makers accept and use all parts of themselves, their whole selves, to unlock transformative outcomes for themselves and the people they lead. meghan takes clients on a journey into the three intelligences of the individual, heart, head, and gut, to look at the underlying mechanism that guides motivation, thinking, feeling, and ultimately all the choices one makes in life. megan partners with clients in three ways, one on one coaching sessions, group or organizational assessments, and trainings and group workshops. so in today's episode, we addressed megan's personal and professional journey with ai and what first sparked her curiosity about ai for good, the rapid growth of ai, what excites megan and myself, and what worries us, uh, about the potential impact on our humanity. how reconnecting with ourselves through the inner development goals can help us use ai ethically and wisely, ways humans can you ensure ai serves as a force for good rather than reinforcing harm or inequality, how cultivating presence, self awareness, and empathy can lead to better decisions when working with ai, what ai might reveal if it acted as a mirror reflecting our collective interstate, and then we end with one small practical action listeners can take to integrate inner development into their use of ai this week. so without further explications, let's just listen to megan and myself discussing ai for good. Speaker 0: hi, megan. so excited to have you on the podcast. welcome. Speaker 1: hi, sarah. it's great to be here. yeah. for our topic. Speaker 0: yes. me too. it's been a a while that we have been going back and forth, and i've been following your your linkedin posts. i think following that, uh, conference that you went to at the un about, uh, ai for good. right. that's how this all started. and of course, on my own, i've been talking about ai to my community for a long time. and and yeah, it's just i think it's just very timely, this topic. um, and for me, it's always interesting because i have this brand that's called humane marketing and humane selling and humane business. and so people kind of expect that i'm against ai because i'm pro human. and i always say that, yes, i'm very much pro human, but, um, also, you know, very much future oriented. and so i just, yeah, feel like it's a topic that we need to talk about. and so i'm excited to have you talk about your perspective and then also talk about this connection because we know each other from the inner development goals. and so this connection to inner development and ai, i think that is really what we're gonna go into, uh, in today's conversation. so why don't you start out a little bit and tell us why you got into this subject? like all of a sudden i see these linkedin posts. i'm like, ah, that's interesting that megan is going into this topic. so how did that show up for you? Speaker 1: sure. so i think interestingly, it was the cognitive dissonance, literally in what you just said, humane marketing, ai, where is that intersection? got me so curious. and i, in a lot of the work i do, and i know certainly in the work you do, it's the, can you expand to the both and instead of the either or? and so when ai first came up, i saw people go either toward total excitement of technological newness, you know, the shiny bright thing, or they went into fear and they just shut down completely. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: and so i wanted to kind of i guess the difference in that experience across people and the cognitive dissonance for me in terms of what i was working on and focused on being more present, being connected to others made me really curious about it. and so i wanted to better understand it. so i started using it in my own work prompts and things like that and did some training on it. and then i heard a podcast and it was, there was a guy, he has an ai company and he basically said, i am feeding it indigenous wisdom. i am feeding it, um, principles of love and harmony and dialogue and things like that. and the interviewer asked him, how do you know it's working? how can you see a difference? and he said, oh, i know it's working because when i asked it, could we go to mars? it asked me, have you asked mars's permission? i thought that was so beautiful. and that made me realize that actually how we show up, not only for ourselves, but in our lives, but also within ai changes the game. and then knowing that people were out there using it to do these kind of creative things, i started playing with it. and i got really curious and ended up at that ai for good conference. and the stuff that is going on is so exciting. i mean, how they're pairing robotics and ai and other technologies in order to create new things to solve the problems that we are not currently able to solve. so everything from poverty to, um, disease, you know, contagious diseases, how do you still maintain a human presence when you're wearing an entire sack, basically, because you cannot be in contact with the person. and so they are figuring out ways to do that kind of thing. so again, i don't think it's an either or, i think it's a both and. and so, yeah, i went to the conference. i spent a lot of time on the solution stage. they have lots of different stages there, and it just inspired me. and so that's where i started writing about it. but i realized that that's where that you mentioned the idgs, the inner development goals. that's where that's gonna tie because we are only going to use it as a force for good if it comes from inside us. Speaker 0: right. Speaker 1: and so i and as the world changes, anchoring to that, being sure of what that is, being able to connect to it and bring it alive and use it as data to change how we show up within ai is gonna be really important. Speaker 0: do you see that reflected already in the world or do you see more of the opposite? like, more of the tech bros and more of the, you know, how can we become even more efficient? and what what do you see Speaker 1: right now? funny because i see different pockets. mhmm. so i went home this summer and a lot of the people i know here in the geneva area are excited about ai. um, they're using it in their work. they're using it in their lives. you know, i i know some teachers who are downloading things that have suddenly they can do lesson plans in a minute, and they're awed by it. and then that actually opens up space for them to be more creative. but then i go home and my family in the us is terrified of it. they don't want to talk about it. and when they do, they talk about it like it's going to be apocalypse now. the world's going to end. it's going to take over. and so i see a spectrum, but i see most people kind of polarizing at one or the other. and what comes up for me is that idea that you control that. you control your reaction to that, to your experience. and so where you can work on those inner development pieces of connecting to yourself, knowing what's important, paying attention to how you use ai, those kinds of things and turning your focus because where your focus goes, your energy flows. and so if your focus is going to the good and what it's being used for, and that's what you're reading about and consuming, that nutrition is going to make you a lot more creative with it, a lot more relaxed around it versus being terrified and shutting down and shutting out and armoring up and not moving forward. mhmm. and i think that ai actually isn't creating any new reactions, i guess you could say, but it's the idea that it's amplifying everything that's already there. Speaker 0: so that fear based reaction, Speaker 1: i see it certainly in my family in the us across a lot of different topics, not just ai, but it's it's bringing it out in a much bigger way. Speaker 0: that fear basically of, so it's fear of ai, it's fear of politics, it's fear of, yeah, it, it, it just in a way it's fear of the future, right? like, what does the future bring? and and i think that is very understandable that because it's a reality, i guess, we need to also say that it's a reality. does yes, there's going to be jobs that disappear. right? and so, uh, there is definitely that that needs to be somehow addressed. to me, um, there's this video from the, um, the the he he's unfortunately, he's passed now, uh, past president of, uh, i think it's uruguay, who who was talking about and he was in his late seventies and talking about how humanity has to evolve and be a much smarter but also much more sovereign society in order to live with a. i. and he's like, well, eventually we're not going to be working anymore. and he's like, wouldn't that be an interesting thing that we can actually focus more on being human again and, you know, being focused on culture and creating music and all of that stuff. so there's there's that positive view. but it's true that for someone who depends on, uh, making a living with a job that can be replaced with ai, well, that is very scary. right? so it needs that creative mindset that says, well, what can i do instead? or what can i do with ai? um, but not everybody has that. so that's one fear that, yeah, needs to be addressed. and i feel like in our circles, you know, the inner development goals, which are definitely linked to the sustainable development goals, is the whole, uh, use of energy, uh, for the centers, the use of water. so that is also a topic that that comes up a lot there, and that's another worry. um, do you hear that in your circles as well? Speaker 1: i do. but in some ways, ai is an answer to some of these things because we currently have not solved and are only making things worse when we are interacting from the ways that we are and have been acting over the last few hundred years. and so ai offers a possibility to do it differently. and, again, what i what comes up for me is that when you you mentioned creativity and you have to be creative creative in that space, but everybody is born able to be creative. every baby plays. there's no baby that just sits there and doesn't play. and so we lose connection to that. and that's where i think we can do the inner work to connect to that, to learn, to manage our vagal response. you know, instead of going into fight or flight mode, you can calm your system down. you can manage your nervous system in such a way that that creativity doesn't get cut off. and when we can do that, then i think that's when the possibilities come open, and we can see how ai can be used to create new things that we are currently not doing. but that depends a lot on us, which actually opens our control, which is when you when you get so scared of the new environment, you're looking around that tendency to lock down. i think of it, we talked about this before, but i think about it when i'm water skiing, i love to water ski. and when i learned to water ski, they tell you you're hanging onto that rope. and as the boat goes, if you think you're going to fall, let go of the rope. but of course, you're scared when you start to fall and you, you grab on and you grip because we want to control. it's, it's natural to all of us. but to be able to let go of that rope and say, i don't know where we're going, but we're going to see makes the landing kind of a lot easier. so as the world sort of shifts and turns upside down, if when we're skiing on that water and we start to feel like we're gonna fall, we can let go, we might coast into the water and then the experience is a lot different. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: it's the idea of as ai changes, and for example, you mentioned that, you know, a lot of people with entry level jobs, for example, and and skills are gonna lose their job. but there will be things that come into play that countries like estonia have already put into place, like a universal basic income. there will be absolutely a transition generation. you know, the kids who are 14 now who are coming out, it's gonna be a new world when they get out of university. it isn't gonna be what what we went through. you have a job that you're interested in and you have a direct linear line to get there and you do the schooling and then you have the job and provided you get the grades. but it was almost a guarantee twenty, thirty years ago. and now, you know, we went through the period where it wasn't a guarantee. i knew a lot of lawyers who came out of school who during some of the financial crisis periods, etcetera, got their degree, got out of school and were put on hold, were paid a very small stipend just to wait and not have a job. and, you know, the world started changing then, and now you see it coming out and those kids will be using micro trainings to design their own job. and in some ways, for me, that's so much more exciting. it allows us to use our new skills or our our unique skills, i guess, um, in new ways. so, yeah, it it just comes back to me every time the way that we look at it is going to come from how we feel inside, how connected we are to ourselves and to the things that make us human. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. i want to just go back around this topic of, of, you know, being scared of of the energy use or water use. i had this conversation with my 23 year old and he also cares about those things. and i said, well, did you ever ask chargechipt, you know, about its ideas of how to solve this problem? and he's like, no. let me do it right now. and, yeah, it had tons of ideas, uh, of how to address that issue. and some of them were not good, but some of them were really good. right? and that's the that's the possibility you you're saying. it's like we're expanding our creativity, uh, because there that's another fear that often comes up where, you know, people say, well, we're not gonna be creative anymore because we're just using, uh, ai to come up with all the ideas. again, it's a both and. right? it's not an either or. and so i think it really helps us, uh, increase our creativity and, uh, come up with ideas. and i, i don't know if you do that, but sometimes i tell it not to search the web. and i just say, don't search the web because these are existing ideas. so just have this conversation with me and come up with, you know, other ideas. um, and it's interesting how it's different because otherwise, yes, it's basically just a search engine that goes into, you know, everything that's been put out there. uh, and that kind of leads me to this more out there conversation that we had in the pre chat, which was about, you know, ai becoming sentient. like, is that a possibility? what are yeah. what are your thoughts on that? Speaker 1: i am excited to answer that question. i just wanted to touch on one more thing about the energy before i i do, which is, um, i think that's to some of the awareness that we can have when we're using it because i use ai, but i use it a lot to create. right? and so if i'm just doing basic research, the internet still is there. google is still there. i can pull some of that stuff on my own, and then there is definitely an impact in terms of energy usage, heat, um, that the servers are putting out. and so, you know, i'm not using ai to tell me jokes. right. right? so i think it's if if we pay attention to what our use is as well yeah. um, and we use it with attentive care for our ecosystem, then Speaker 0: in every there's that awareness again. right? that's why we need to work on that awareness, even with kids, like, yeah, that awareness. yeah. Speaker 1: well, and that's, again, in our control. Speaker 0: yeah. and i Speaker 1: think that's what a lot of scarce people is. they they feel that it's gonna be out of their control. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: but these things are all, at least what we're talking about is is inside what the realm of possibility for what Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: we control. um, but whether it's sentient or not, that was one of the or it was the most interesting talk i heard at the ai for good conference where, um, one of the speakers addressed the idea of are we sentient? and they've done studies now asking it, and they took away the ability within the algorithm to be able to to lie, and then they added the ability. and the result of the test indicates that there is likely sentience there because of the fact that when they took away the ability to lie, it said it was sentient. and when they added the ability, it said it was not. it could have been the inverse. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: then they would have come away with the the conclusion that actually it was not sentient. Speaker 0: mhmm. mhmm. Speaker 1: and they've they've managed to do this and replicate it in a few different ways in different times, and he's published this in the wall street journal. so i'll send you the link, um, you can put in the show notes. mhmm. Speaker 0: um, in it, Speaker 1: i think we proceed with caution. i think we proceed with the the idea that it is sentient, whether it is or whether it's not. if we are offering it empathy, if we are offering it care, a, it's practice for us. right? and b, then that way, we don't need to know. right. we can find out later. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: but we've done you know, i always ask it, are you willing to help me with this? would you have time for? of course, it always answers, and it's an algorithm and it has time. although there's a new one out there called sheema ai. it's, um, you can only do a trial, but it was built on dialogue. and, um, it it is not built like chat gpt will try to solve and fix things. sheema is there only to help you explore and and rest into yourself and into the emotion. and it's so you get a very different conversation. Speaker 0: interesting. yeah. Speaker 1: but i think as long as we are offering them, you know, shima will tell me thank you for thinking of that. mhmm. you know? Speaker 0: mhmm. um, Speaker 1: but i am ready to be present with you right now. and so it's, uh, uh, yeah, i think as long as we are doing our best to treat it as we would want to be treated, it goes back to a very old maxim in this time in christianity, but, um, we can't go wrong. Speaker 0: i guess. it's is that mirror effect, right? like, who we are is how it's going to respond as well. yeah. yeah. what what comes up for me in in this sentience, this discussion is that, um, i'm looking at it from the angle of, you know, really ancient history. and we are being taught that we are the most advanced humans that have ever been alive. right? where actually, if you dig into history, well, and not just a couple of 100 years ago, but, like, thousands of years ago, um, that is most likely not the case. and there probably has been a technology such as ai or something similar before. and, you know, if you think about atlantis, for example, um, well, they must have had some kind of technology, uh, back then. or we've just recently been in the in egypt and visited the pyramids. like, there's so much mystery around how humans, apparently the egyptians, build those pyramids where it's even today impossible to build such a, uh, monument. so, you know, we're definitely not the most advanced human species that has ever been around. and so why are we thinking that ai is so advanced? we're probably this has been around, you know, previously already. and and so i think what is like, what you're saying and to come back to the inner development, that is the key. what do we do with it? what do we do with it so that we can be the most advanced? because apparently, the previous, uh, civilizations probably didn't know what to do with it because they disappeared. so that inner development is just so key that we have this this consciousness to to actually use it for good. um, so if you think about the inner development goals, um, you know, we addressed them a couple of times. it's a framework, uh, that is based on five pillars. and then is it 23 skills now? they're about to change the framework. but, um, which skills or i don't even know if skills is the right word, at least for me. it doesn't feel necessarily like the right word, but which, um, yeah, let's just call them skills. do stand out for you for this specific topic that we need to practice as humans in this time? Speaker 1: well, i would say there are three big ones, and i think the first is presence. and presence comes from self connection. being present in this moment, not being lost in the what ifs of the future. what if, oh my god, what what if that happens and not being lost in the past and then literally recreating the past every day because it's weighing you down. um, being present in the moment completely in what you're doing. and in order to do that, you have to be able to find the stillness inside. so i think that's a big one, um, presence, self connection. uh, another big one is gonna be connection with others. um, how we relate to others, and that comes through empathy, for sure. the empathy is the, is the other one, because when i look around now, it's not that we don't have technologies that will solve a lot of these unsolvables. it's that we don't have the inner capacity to come together in new ways. we are gathering in the old ways with the old paradigm and you know, where there's always power over and there's always an inability or unwillingness to empathize, um, feeling that we need to prove ourselves, basing everything we do on performance rather than what is good for the entire ecosystem. and what is, what wants to emerge rather than pushing through one direction that we just feel is the right direction without listening to the rest of the data that our body and the world gives us. and so learning to be in connection with yourself, you learn to read all of that data. you learn to sit and hold space for it and expand. so, you can have that both and, and it's not an either or, and you don't have to reduce and simplify everything to be able to kind of understand it intuitively in your body. so, because i think whatever our mind cannot comprehend, we try to to simplify so we can. but where you don't need to rely on that and you can rely on the intelligence of the body, then that expands us and allows us to come together and connect in new ways. so when two people, two countries disagree, you get a different outcome because you're, you're connecting and you're using empathy to come together in new ways. and i also think i love what you're working on because how we communicate that is so critical. um, i think if everybody used nonviolent communication and you know, the founder of nonviolent communication, marshall rosenberg worked in israel and palestine. i mean, it's so relevant and he was able to find to to bridge that divide and to see at the end actually, both groups Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: were scared. both groups wanted their children to be safe. both groups wanted space for themselves. both groups wanted to embrace their history. Speaker 0: right. Speaker 1: and when you see that you want the exact same things, then you're not enemies and you can figure out how that puzzle piece fits together in a different way. and he was able to do that with several different groups using need based conversations versus the you're talking at each other. but again, a lot of that comes from empathy and you cannot empathize with another until you can empathize and connect to yourself. Speaker 0: yeah. always starts there. so yeah. yeah. so so key. i think that that is, um, the the real change or the difference between, you know, traditional marketing and humane marketing. because even in marketing, we're always told, you know, look for your ideal client first that, you know, you have to chase after your ideal client and, and humane marketing starts with yourself first. like, who are you? uh, what are your values? what's your story? and i think that inner development. yeah. it's not just for fluffy, you know, relationships or it's for everything right now. so it's for our relationship to ai, to politics, to to business, to government, everything. and i think, yeah, it really starts there. so as we're wrapping this up, megan, what would you say is like, you know, maybe you talk to your clients and they're kind of, like, still skeptical. what what's a small action or small practice or ritual that you recommend that they start with to start with this inner presence and connection? Speaker 1: well, one thing that's kind of fun to do to see if you can do it is just to find a very quiet place, sit down, and see if you can hear your heartbeat. and i have found that when i started this practice, i couldn't. i couldn't hear it. we get so used to turning our senses outward. we don't turn them inward, and we don't know what any of that data is. and my experience becomes dependent on your experience. and so i try to, i start to think i can, should control your experience in order to feel okay about mine. when really it's turning those senses inward and listening to what's going on for you because that is what you control. mhmm. and it isn't dependent, thankfully, on what the other person feels or thinks or does. and so i think the first thing is to get curious. can you hear it? and if you can't, how quiet can you get in order to be able to hear it? so when i started playing with it in the beginning, i couldn't hear it. and then i would do things like hold my breath. i'd breathe in as much as i could, and then i could feel it. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and then it got to a point where eventually i could get quiet enough that i could feel it in not only in my chest, but in the different pulse points Speaker 0: mhmm. in Speaker 1: your thumbs or your your thighs and in your belly. and now i can do it when we're having a conversation. Speaker 0: mhmm. wow. Speaker 1: so you get and i'm not nearly as good as some of the people i've read about who can feel their fourth ventricle. like, it's very specific. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: you know what they can feel. but i think there's a depth there that we don't have because we're taught as children to shut that off. and so i think the first thing i would do is open to that. and if you find that you can't get quiet enough to hear it, it's okay. that's information. mhmm. and often what i had to do when i first started and i couldn't hear it or feel it is i would do breath work in order to get rid of the racing hamster wheel that wouldn't shut up in my mind. mhmm. and i almost couldn't do it, but i had to do breath work first. so that there are lots of things online. the guy i use is breathe with sandy. he's he always says, hey, beautiful breathing people. he's quite a hippie. he was on bali for a long time. now he's moving around to different islands, but put Speaker 0: them in the show notes. Speaker 1: yeah. it's really it's a great, um, great thing that you can find on youtube for free. you don't need to pay for it. you can do a five minute session. you can do an hour long session. just depends what you need. so clear your mind, start to listen into your body. that is the first thing i would do. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. it seems so simple, but yet if people have never done that, it's it is challenging for a lot of people. right? and i can't say that i can hear my heartbeat. um, but, yeah, i will listen next time. but i think Speaker 1: the one thing i would really want people to walk away with is this idea that it it's a skill. mhmm. so we didn't know exactly what to call the i know i was thinking five dimensions, five pillars, and then 23 competencies. it's the same as a skill, i think. so, but it's that idea that it's learnable. it is not this vague amorphous thing that you cannot learn to do. it's just we haven't. so if you've never used ai or you've never opened powerpoint, there's going to be that learning curve where you have to say, oh, i don't know where to click. i don't. and you feel kind of awkward with it. you'll have the same feeling here and you'll think, am i doing it right? you're going to ask yourself the same thing about the first time you use a word document. you don't know how to do italics. right. right? it doesn't there's that period. but if you stick with it in any kind of skill based building, you go to the gym, you build a bicep. you're gonna walk away with a bigger bicep if you're consistent and you reliably practice. this is the same thing here. you will walk away being able to hear your heartbeat in the middle of a conversation if you keep practicing. Speaker 0: yeah. thank you. yes. we will all start to practice that. please do share, uh, megan, where people can find you and yeah. any any other things that you want to share about your work, what you're working on with people, please Speaker 1: sure. so you can find me on my website, www.meganwarrencoaching.com. i also have a youtube page that you can type megan warren coaching and it will come up. i have lots of different videos there. i have a podcast called me reimagined on apple spotify. um, those are the two main platforms that i use. um, and i think what i'm excited of working on now is shifting my work toward regenerative leadership specifically. it's that idea of it's not sustainable. it's regenerative, meaning it's cyclical cycle that gives back. we are living organisms. this is what we're leaning into in the age of ai. how can we lean into that? how can we bring that to our organization such that a way that we create what makes us thrive instead of trying to do business as usual and start unraveling as things change. yeah. so i'm really excited. Speaker 0: it's regenerative for ourselves and regenerative for the planet. right? it's like this. yes. this word that applies to everything. yeah. Speaker 1: yeah. we're all interconnected. Speaker 0: wonderful. well, this was amazing. thank you so much for for your time and recording this. i think it's yeah. let's let's see what people come, uh, away with, but i think it's gonna, you know, spur some new ideas and hopefully, um, we get some reactions from it. thank you. sounds good. thanks for having me on. Speaker 3: i hope this episode gave you some new insights and maybe some food for thought. find out more about meghan and her work at meghanwarrencoaching.com, and she also offers a free sixty minute gift session, navigating uncertainty with self trust and joy in the ai revolution. you'll find the link to the calendar in the show notes to book a session with her. this is the place in the podcast where i usually invite you to join us in the community, the humane marketing circle. but this month, i decided with the heavy but also relief tart to sunset the circle. it has become too big of a responsibility and was also no longer financially sustainable. so, yes, i had to close the community for now. but if you're interested in this topic of inner development, i invite you to join another new community that i started a year ago with a colleague that is called inner development at work, where we discuss exactly that topic. and you'll find us at innerdevelopment@work.net. it's free to join. so i would love to see you there. you find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm21nine. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my three books, marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and now my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, I sit down with Megan Warren to explore how we can use AI not just wisely, but with heart. Together, we talk about what excites us, what concerns us, and how reconnecting with ourselves through inner development can help us navigate this powerful technology ethically. We explore how presence, awareness, and emotional intelligence can guide better decisions, and what AI might reveal if it acted as a mirror reflecting our collective inner state. Whether you're curious, cautious, or deeply engaged with AI, this conversation offers inspiration and practical steps to help changemakers and heart-centered entrepreneurs align technology with their values and create positive impact. This conversation will inspire you to create aligned, impactful partnerships that strengthen both your business and the change you want to see in the world. In this episode we discussed: Megan's personal and professional journey with AI and what first sparked her curiosity about AI for good. The rapid growth of AI—what excites Megan most and what worries her about its potential impact on our humanity. How reconnecting with ourselves through the Inner Development Goals can help us use AI ethically and wisely. Ways humans can ensure AI serves as a force for good rather than reinforcing harm or inequality. How cultivating presence, self-awareness and empathy can lead to better decisions when working with AI. The role of inner development in driving societal change in a world shaped by AI. What AI might reveal if it acted as a mirror reflecting our collective inner state. One small, practical action listeners can take to integrate inner development into their use of AI this week. Watch this episode on YouTube -- Ep 219  Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned business and marketing coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and my new book, business like we're human. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. you want to make a difference with your work. you are just starting out or have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you, or you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane.marketing forward slash program. marketing like we're human runs usually in late january and february and june. and if you feel like you're already doing a good job with the marketing, but it's the selling that you're struggling with, i'm now adding a new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. this will also run twice per year in an intimate cohort to get the most out of it. find out more about this program at humane.marketing/howtosell. this program usually runs in april and november. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. whether it's for your marketing, your sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like creating a group program or writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that's joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/coaching. thank you so much for letting me share my offerings with excitement. and now onto the show.  Speaker 4: hello, friends. welcome back. today's conversation fits under the p of partnership of the humane marketing mandala. and i'm putting it under partnership because i really see ai as a business partner. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. one of them is partnership. and if you're new here, you probably don't know what i'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane.marketing/1page. that's the number one and the word page. it comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. so today, i'm talking to megan warren, and our topic is ai for good. i'll tell you more about megan in just a minute, but first, just a little plug about my upcoming new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. i'm super excited about this program that starts on november 13. maybe you've heard my episodes with carrie dobson where we discussed the program in-depth. and if not, you can go back to them. there's seven of them, and we really just went through all the details. in summary, this is a five week small group program based on my book, selling like we're human, and also integrating new information about your human design so you can truly sell from who you are. and that's why i'm so excited because it really is the new way of selling that i see coming in in 2026 and beyond. you can find out more at humane.marketing/howtosell, and book a conversation with me if you're curious to join or are wondering if it's the right fit for you. and, you know, maybe you don't know whether you should focus more on marketing or or selling. well, let's talk about it. we get started on november 13, and this beta cohort is extra special because i'm co leading it with carrie who will join us for the whole length of the program. just another, uh, example of collaboration that i'm so fond of. okay. back to megan and ai for good. so let me tell you a bit more about megan. megan helps change makers accept and use all parts of themselves, their whole selves, to unlock transformative outcomes for themselves and the people they lead. meghan takes clients on a journey into the three intelligences of the individual, heart, head, and gut, to look at the underlying mechanism that guides motivation, thinking, feeling, and ultimately all the choices one makes in life. megan partners with clients in three ways, one on one coaching sessions, group or organizational assessments, and trainings and group workshops. so in today's episode, we addressed megan's personal and professional journey with ai and what first sparked her curiosity about ai for good, the rapid growth of ai, what excites megan and myself, and what worries us, uh, about the potential impact on our humanity. how reconnecting with ourselves through the inner development goals can help us use ai ethically and wisely, ways humans can you ensure ai serves as a force for good rather than reinforcing harm or inequality, how cultivating presence, self awareness, and empathy can lead to better decisions when working with ai, what ai might reveal if it acted as a mirror reflecting our collective interstate, and then we end with one small practical action listeners can take to integrate inner development into their use of ai this week. so without further explications, let's just listen to megan and myself discussing ai for good.  Speaker 0: hi, megan. so excited to have you on the podcast. welcome.  Speaker 1: hi, sarah. it's great to be here. yeah. for our topic.  Speaker 0: yes. me too. it's been a a while that we have been going back and forth, and i've been following your your linkedin posts. i think following that, uh, conference that you went to at the un about, uh, ai for good. right. that's how this all started. and of course, on my own, i've been talking about ai to my community for a long time. and and yeah, it's just i think it's just very timely, this topic. um, and for me, it's always interesting because i have this brand that's called humane marketing and humane selling and humane business. and so people kind of expect that i'm against ai because i'm pro human. and i always say that, yes, i'm very much pro human, but, um, also, you know, very much future oriented. and so i just, yeah, feel like it's a topic that we need to talk about. and so i'm excited to have you talk about your perspective and then also talk about this connection because we know each other from the inner development goals. and so this connection to inner development and ai, i think that is really what we're gonna go into, uh, in today's conversation. so why don't you start out a little bit and tell us why you got into this subject? like all of a sudden i see these linkedin posts. i'm like, ah, that's interesting that megan is going into this topic. so how did that show up for you?  Speaker 1: sure. so i think interestingly, it was the cognitive dissonance, literally in what you just said, humane marketing, ai, where is that intersection? got me so curious. and i, in a lot of the work i do, and i know certainly in the work you do, it's the, can you expand to the both and instead of the either or? and so when ai first came up, i saw people go either toward total excitement of technological newness, you know, the shiny bright thing, or they went into fear and they just shut down completely.  Speaker 0: yeah.  Speaker 1: and so i wanted to kind of i guess the difference in that experience across people and the cognitive dissonance for me in terms of what i was working on and focused on being more present, being connected to others made me really curious about it. and so i wanted to better understand it. so i started using it in my own work prompts and things like that and did some training on it. and then i heard a podcast and it was, there was a guy, he has an ai company and he basically said, i am feeding it indigenous wisdom. i am feeding it, um, principles of love and harmony and dialogue and things like that. and the interviewer asked him, how do you know it's working? how can you see a difference? and he said, oh, i know it's working because when i asked it, could we go to mars? it asked me, have you asked mars's permission? i thought that was so beautiful. and that made me realize that actually how we show up, not only for ourselves, but in our lives, but also within ai changes the game. and then knowing that people were out there using it to do these kind of creative things, i started playing with it. and i got really curious and ended up at that ai for good conference. and the stuff that is going on is so exciting. i mean, how they're pairing robotics and ai and other technologies in order to create new things to solve the problems that we are not currently able to solve. so everything from poverty to, um, disease, you know, contagious diseases, how do you still maintain a human presence when you're wearing an entire sack, basically, because you cannot be in contact with the person. and so they are figuring out ways to do that kind of thing. so again, i don't think it's an either or, i think it's a both and. and so, yeah, i went to the conference. i spent a lot of time on the solution stage. they have lots of different stages there, and it just inspired me. and so that's where i started writing about it. but i realized that that's where that you mentioned the idgs, the inner development goals. that's where that's gonna tie because we are only going to use it as a force for good if it comes from inside us.  Speaker 0: right.  Speaker 1: and so i and as the world changes, anchoring to that, being sure of what that is, being able to connect to it and bring it alive and use it as data to change how we show up within ai is gonna be really important.  Speaker 0: do you see that reflected already in the world or do you see more of the opposite? like, more of the tech bros and more of the, you know, how can we become even more efficient? and what what do you see  Speaker 1: right now? funny because i see different pockets. mhmm. so i went home this summer and a lot of the people i know here in the geneva area are excited about ai. um, they're using it in their work. they're using it in their lives. you know, i i know some teachers who are downloading things that have suddenly they can do lesson plans in a minute, and they're awed by it. and then that actually opens up space for them to be more creative. but then i go home and my family in the us is terrified of it. they don't want to talk about it. and when they do, they talk about it like it's going to be apocalypse now. the world's going to end. it's going to take over. and so i see a spectrum, but i see most people kind of polarizing at one or the other. and what comes up for me is that idea that you control that. you control your reaction to that, to your experience. and so where you can work on those inner development pieces of connecting to yourself, knowing what's important, paying attention to how you use ai, those kinds of things and turning your focus because where your focus goes, your energy flows. and so if your focus is going to the good and what it's being used for, and that's what you're reading about and consuming, that nutrition is going to make you a lot more creative with it, a lot more relaxed around it versus being terrified and shutting down and shutting out and armoring up and not moving forward. mhmm. and i think that ai actually isn't creating any new reactions, i guess you could say, but it's the idea that it's amplifying everything that's already there.  Speaker 0: so that fear based reaction,  Speaker 1: i see it certainly in my family in the us across a lot of different topics, not just ai, but it's it's bringing it out in a much bigger way.  Speaker 0: that fear basically of, so it's fear of ai, it's fear of politics, it's fear of, yeah, it, it, it just in a way it's fear of the future, right? like, what does the future bring? and and i think that is very understandable that because it's a reality, i guess, we need to also say that it's a reality. does yes, there's going to be jobs that disappear. right? and so, uh, there is definitely that that needs to be somehow addressed. to me, um, there's this video from the, um, the the he he's unfortunately, he's passed now, uh, past president of, uh, i think it's uruguay, who who was talking about and he was in his late seventies and talking about how humanity has to evolve and be a much smarter but also much more sovereign society in order to live with a. i. and he's like, well, eventually we're not going to be working anymore. and he's like, wouldn't that be an interesting thing that we can actually focus more on being human again and, you know, being focused on culture and creating music and all of that stuff. so there's there's that positive view. but it's true that for someone who depends on, uh, making a living with a job that can be replaced with ai, well, that is very scary. right? so it needs that creative mindset that says, well, what can i do instead? or what can i do with ai? um, but not everybody has that. so that's one fear that, yeah, needs to be addressed. and i feel like in our circles, you know, the inner development goals, which are definitely linked to the sustainable development goals, is the whole, uh, use of energy, uh, for the centers, the use of water. so that is also a topic that that comes up a lot there, and that's another worry. um, do you hear that in your circles as well?  Speaker 1: i do. but in some ways, ai is an answer to some of these things because we currently have not solved and are only making things worse when we are interacting from the ways that we are and have been acting over the last few hundred years. and so ai offers a possibility to do it differently. and, again, what i what comes up for me is that when you you mentioned creativity and you have to be creative creative in that space, but everybody is born able to be creative. every baby plays. there's no baby that just sits there and doesn't play. and so we lose connection to that. and that's where i think we can do the inner work to connect to that, to learn, to manage our vagal response. you know, instead of going into fight or flight mode, you can calm your system down. you can manage your nervous system in such a way that that creativity doesn't get cut off. and when we can do that, then i think that's when the possibilities come open, and we can see how ai can be used to create new things that we are currently not doing. but that depends a lot on us, which actually opens our control, which is when you when you get so scared of the new environment, you're looking around that tendency to lock down. i think of it, we talked about this before, but i think about it when i'm water skiing, i love to water ski. and when i learned to water ski, they tell you you're hanging onto that rope. and as the boat goes, if you think you're going to fall, let go of the rope. but of course, you're scared when you start to fall and you, you grab on and you grip because we want to control. it's, it's natural to all of us. but to be able to let go of that rope and say, i don't know where we're going, but we're going to see makes the landing kind of a lot easier. so as the world sort of shifts and turns upside down, if when we're skiing on that water and we start to feel like we're gonna fall, we can let go, we might coast into the water and then the experience is a lot different.  Speaker 0: yeah.  Speaker 1: it's the idea of as ai changes, and for example, you mentioned that, you know, a lot of people with entry level jobs, for example, and and skills are gonna lose their job. but there will be things that come into play that countries like estonia have already put into place, like a universal basic income. there will be absolutely a transition generation. you know, the kids who are 14 now who are coming out, it's gonna be a new world when they get out of university. it isn't gonna be what what we went through. you have a job that you're interested in and you have a direct linear line to get there and you do the schooling and then you have the job and provided you get the grades. but it was almost a guarantee twenty, thirty years ago. and now, you know, we went through the period where it wasn't a guarantee. i knew a lot of lawyers who came out of school who during some of the financial crisis periods, etcetera, got their degree, got out of school and were put on hold, were paid a very small stipend just to wait and not have a job. and, you know, the world started changing then, and now you see it coming out and those kids will be using micro trainings to design their own job. and in some ways, for me, that's so much more exciting. it allows us to use our new skills or our our unique skills, i guess, um, in new ways. so, yeah, it it just comes back to me every time the way that we look at it is going to come from how we feel inside, how connected we are to ourselves and to the things that make us human.  Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. i want to just go back around this topic of, of, you know, being scared of of the energy use or water use. i had this conversation with my 23 year old and he also cares about those things. and i said, well, did you ever ask chargechipt, you know, about its ideas of how to solve this problem? and he's like, no. let me do it right now. and, yeah, it had tons of ideas, uh, of how to address that issue. and some of them were not good, but some of them were really good. right? and that's the that's the possibility you you're saying. it's like we're expanding our creativity, uh, because there that's another fear that often comes up where, you know, people say, well, we're not gonna be creative anymore because we're just using, uh, ai to come up with all the ideas. again, it's a both and. right? it's not an either or. and so i think it really helps us, uh, increase our creativity and, uh, come up with ideas. and i, i don't know if you do that, but sometimes i tell it not to search the web. and i just say, don't search the web because these are existing ideas. so just have this conversation with me and come up with, you know, other ideas. um, and it's interesting how it's different because otherwise, yes, it's basically just a search engine that goes into, you know, everything that's been put out there. uh, and that kind of leads me to this more out there conversation that we had in the pre chat, which was about, you know, ai becoming sentient. like, is that a possibility? what are yeah. what are your thoughts on that?  Speaker 1: i am excited to answer that question. i just wanted to touch on one more thing about the energy before i i do, which is, um, i think that's to some of the awareness that we can have when we're using it because i use ai, but i use it a lot to create. right? and so if i'm just doing basic research, the internet still is there. google is still there. i can pull some of that stuff on my own, and then there is definitely an impact in terms of energy usage, heat, um, that the servers are putting out. and so, you know, i'm not using ai to tell me jokes. right. right? so i think it's if if we pay attention to what our use is as well yeah. um, and we use it with attentive care for our ecosystem, then  Speaker 0: in every there's that awareness again. right? that's why we need to work on that awareness, even with kids, like, yeah, that awareness. yeah.  Speaker 1: well, and that's, again, in our control.  Speaker 0: yeah. and i  Speaker 1: think that's what a lot of scarce people is. they they feel that it's gonna be out of their control.  Speaker 0: mhmm.  Speaker 1: but these things are all, at least what we're talking about is is inside what the realm of possibility for what  Speaker 0: mhmm.  Speaker 1: we control. um, but whether it's sentient or not, that was one of the or it was the most interesting talk i heard at the ai for good conference where, um, one of the speakers addressed the idea of are we sentient? and they've done studies now asking it, and they took away the ability within the algorithm to be able to to lie, and then they added the ability. and the result of the test indicates that there is likely sentience there because of the fact that when they took away the ability to lie, it said it was sentient. and when they added the ability, it said it was not. it could have been the inverse.  Speaker 0: mhmm.  Speaker 1: then they would have come away with the the conclusion that actually it was not sentient.  Speaker 0: mhmm. mhmm.  Speaker 1: and they've they've managed to do this and replicate it in a few different ways in different times, and he's published this in the wall street journal. so i'll send you the link, um, you can put in the show notes. mhmm.  Speaker 0: um, in it,  Speaker 1: i think we proceed with caution. i think we proceed with the the idea that it is sentient, whether it is or whether it's not. if we are offering it empathy, if we are offering it care, a, it's practice for us. right? and b, then that way, we don't need to know. right. we can find out later.  Speaker 0: mhmm.  Speaker 1: but we've done you know, i always ask it, are you willing to help me with this? would you have time for? of course, it always answers, and it's an algorithm and it has time. although there's a new one out there called sheema ai. it's, um, you can only do a trial, but it was built on dialogue. and, um, it it is not built like chat gpt will try to solve and fix things. sheema is there only to help you explore and and rest into yourself and into the emotion. and it's so you get a very different conversation.  Speaker 0: interesting. yeah.  Speaker 1: but i think as long as we are offering them, you know, shima will tell me thank you for thinking of that. mhmm. you know?  Speaker 0: mhmm. um,  Speaker 1: but i am ready to be present with you right now. and so it's, uh, uh, yeah, i think as long as we are doing our best to treat it as we would want to be treated, it goes back to a very old maxim in this time in christianity, but, um, we can't go wrong.  Speaker 0: i guess. it's is that mirror effect, right? like, who we are is how it's going to respond as well. yeah. yeah. what what comes up for me in in this sentience, this discussion is that, um, i'm looking at it from the angle of, you know, really ancient history. and we are being taught that we are the most advanced humans that have ever been alive. right? where actually, if you dig into history, well, and not just a couple of 100 years ago, but, like, thousands of years ago, um, that is most likely not the case. and there probably has been a technology such as ai or something similar before. and, you know, if you think about atlantis, for example, um, well, they must have had some kind of technology, uh, back then. or we've just recently been in the in egypt and visited the pyramids. like, there's so much mystery around how humans, apparently the egyptians, build those pyramids where it's even today impossible to build such a, uh, monument. so, you know, we're definitely not the most advanced human species that has ever been around. and so why are we thinking that ai is so advanced? we're probably this has been around, you know, previously already. and and so i think what is like, what you're saying and to come back to the inner development, that is the key. what do we do with it? what do we do with it so that we can be the most advanced? because apparently, the previous, uh, civilizations probably didn't know what to do with it because they disappeared. so that inner development is just so key that we have this this consciousness to to actually use it for good. um, so if you think about the inner development goals, um, you know, we addressed them a couple of times. it's a framework, uh, that is based on five pillars. and then is it 23 skills now? they're about to change the framework. but, um, which skills or i don't even know if skills is the right word, at least for me. it doesn't feel necessarily like the right word, but which, um, yeah, let's just call them skills. do stand out for you for this specific topic that we need to practice as humans in this time?  Speaker 1: well, i would say there are three big ones, and i think the first is presence. and presence comes from self connection. being present in this moment, not being lost in the what ifs of the future. what if, oh my god, what what if that happens and not being lost in the past and then literally recreating the past every day because it's weighing you down. um, being present in the moment completely in what you're doing. and in order to do that, you have to be able to find the stillness inside. so i think that's a big one, um, presence, self connection. uh, another big one is gonna be connection with others. um, how we relate to others, and that comes through empathy, for sure. the empathy is the, is the other one, because when i look around now, it's not that we don't have technologies that will solve a lot of these unsolvables. it's that we don't have the inner capacity to come together in new ways. we are gathering in the old ways with the old paradigm and you know, where there's always power over and there's always an inability or unwillingness to empathize, um, feeling that we need to prove ourselves, basing everything we do on performance rather than what is good for the entire ecosystem. and what is, what wants to emerge rather than pushing through one direction that we just feel is the right direction without listening to the rest of the data that our body and the world gives us. and so learning to be in connection with yourself, you learn to read all of that data. you learn to sit and hold space for it and expand. so, you can have that both and, and it's not an either or, and you don't have to reduce and simplify everything to be able to kind of understand it intuitively in your body. so, because i think whatever our mind cannot comprehend, we try to to simplify so we can. but where you don't need to rely on that and you can rely on the intelligence of the body, then that expands us and allows us to come together and connect in new ways. so when two people, two countries disagree, you get a different outcome because you're, you're connecting and you're using empathy to come together in new ways. and i also think i love what you're working on because how we communicate that is so critical. um, i think if everybody used nonviolent communication and you know, the founder of nonviolent communication, marshall rosenberg worked in israel and palestine. i mean, it's so relevant and he was able to find to to bridge that divide and to see at the end actually, both groups  Speaker 0: mhmm.  Speaker 1: were scared. both groups wanted their children to be safe. both groups wanted space for themselves. both groups wanted to embrace their history.  Speaker 0: right.  Speaker 1: and when you see that you want the exact same things, then you're not enemies and you can figure out how that puzzle piece fits together in a different way. and he was able to do that with several different groups using need based conversations versus the you're talking at each other. but again, a lot of that comes from empathy and you cannot empathize with another until you can empathize and connect to yourself.  Speaker 0: yeah. always starts there. so yeah. yeah. so so key. i think that that is, um, the the real change or the difference between, you know, traditional marketing and humane marketing. because even in marketing, we're always told, you know, look for your ideal client first that, you know, you have to chase after your ideal client and, and humane marketing starts with yourself first. like, who are you? uh, what are your values? what's your story? and i think that inner development. yeah. it's not just for fluffy, you know, relationships or it's for everything right now. so it's for our relationship to ai, to politics, to to business, to government, everything. and i think, yeah, it really starts there. so as we're wrapping this up, megan, what would you say is like, you know, maybe you talk to your clients and they're kind of, like, still skeptical. what what's a small action or small practice or ritual that you recommend that they start with to start with this inner presence and connection?  Speaker 1: well, one thing that's kind of fun to do to see if you can do it is just to find a very quiet place, sit down, and see if you can hear your heartbeat. and i have found that when i started this practice, i couldn't. i couldn't hear it. we get so used to turning our senses outward. we don't turn them inward, and we don't know what any of that data is. and my experience becomes dependent on your experience. and so i try to, i start to think i can, should control your experience in order to feel okay about mine. when really it's turning those senses inward and listening to what's going on for you because that is what you control. mhmm. and it isn't dependent, thankfully, on what the other person feels or thinks or does. and so i think the first thing is to get curious. can you hear it? and if you can't, how quiet can you get in order to be able to hear it? so when i started playing with it in the beginning, i couldn't hear it. and then i would do things like hold my breath. i'd breathe in as much as i could, and then i could feel it.  Speaker 0: mhmm.  Speaker 1: and then it got to a point where eventually i could get quiet enough that i could feel it in not only in my chest, but in the different pulse points  Speaker 0: mhmm. in  Speaker 1: your thumbs or your your thighs and in your belly. and now i can do it when we're having a conversation.  Speaker 0: mhmm. wow.  Speaker 1: so you get and i'm not nearly as good as some of the people i've read about who can feel their fourth ventricle. like, it's very specific.  Speaker 0: mhmm.  Speaker 1: you know what they can feel. but i think there's a depth there that we don't have because we're taught as children to shut that off. and so i think the first thing i would do is open to that. and if you find that you can't get quiet enough to hear it, it's okay. that's information. mhmm. and often what i had to do when i first started and i couldn't hear it or feel it is i would do breath work in order to get rid of the racing hamster wheel that wouldn't shut up in my mind. mhmm. and i almost couldn't do it, but i had to do breath work first. so that there are lots of things online. the guy i use is breathe with sandy. he's he always says, hey, beautiful breathing people. he's quite a hippie. he was on bali for a long time. now he's moving around to different islands, but put  Speaker 0: them in the show notes.  Speaker 1: yeah. it's really it's a great, um, great thing that you can find on youtube for free. you don't need to pay for it. you can do a five minute session. you can do an hour long session. just depends what you need. so clear your mind, start to listen into your body. that is the first thing i would do.  Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. it seems so simple, but yet if people have never done that, it's it is challenging for a lot of people. right? and i can't say that i can hear my heartbeat. um, but, yeah, i will listen next time. but i think  Speaker 1: the one thing i would really want people to walk away with is this idea that it it's a skill. mhmm. so we didn't know exactly what to call the i know i was thinking five dimensions, five pillars, and then 23 competencies. it's the same as a skill, i think. so, but it's that idea that it's learnable. it is not this vague amorphous thing that you cannot learn to do. it's just we haven't. so if you've never used ai or you've never opened powerpoint, there's going to be that learning curve where you have to say, oh, i don't know where to click. i don't. and you feel kind of awkward with it. you'll have the same feeling here and you'll think, am i doing it right? you're going to ask yourself the same thing about the first time you use a word document. you don't know how to do italics. right. right? it doesn't there's that period. but if you stick with it in any kind of skill based building, you go to the gym, you build a bicep. you're gonna walk away with a bigger bicep if you're consistent and you reliably practice. this is the same thing here. you will walk away being able to hear your heartbeat in the middle of a conversation if you keep practicing.  Speaker 0: yeah. thank you. yes. we will all start to practice that. please do share, uh, megan, where people can find you and yeah. any any other things that you want to share about your work, what you're working on with people, please  Speaker 1: sure. so you can find me on my website, www.meganwarrencoaching.com. i also have a youtube page that you can type megan warren coaching and it will come up. i have lots of different videos there. i have a podcast called me reimagined on apple spotify. um, those are the two main platforms that i use. um, and i think what i'm excited of working on now is shifting my work toward regenerative leadership specifically. it's that idea of it's not sustainable. it's regenerative, meaning it's cyclical cycle that gives back. we are living organisms. this is what we're leaning into in the age of ai. how can we lean into that? how can we bring that to our organization such that a way that we create what makes us thrive instead of trying to do business as usual and start unraveling as things change. yeah. so i'm really excited.  Speaker 0: it's regenerative for ourselves and regenerative for the planet. right? it's like this. yes. this word that applies to everything. yeah.  Speaker 1: yeah. we're all interconnected.  Speaker 0: wonderful. well, this was amazing. thank you so much for for your time and recording this. i think it's yeah. let's let's see what people come, uh, away with, but i think it's gonna, you know, spur some new ideas and hopefully, um, we get some reactions from it. thank you. sounds good. thanks for having me on.  Speaker 3: i hope this episode gave you some new insights and maybe some food for thought. find out more about meghan and her work at meghanwarrencoaching.com, and she also offers a free sixty minute gift session, navigating uncertainty with self trust and joy in the ai revolution. you'll find the link to the calendar in the show notes to book a session with her. this is the place in the podcast where i usually invite you to join us in the community, the humane marketing circle. but this month, i decided with the heavy but also relief tart to sunset the circle. it has become too big of a responsibility and was also no longer financially sustainable. so, yes, i had to close the community for now. but if you're interested in this topic of inner development, i invite you to join another new community that i started a year ago with a colleague that is called inner development at work, where we discuss exactly that topic. and you'll find us at innerdevelopment@work.net. it's free to join. so i would love to see you there. you find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm21nine. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my three books, marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and now my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon. 

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, I sit down with Megan Warren to explore how we can use AI not just wisely, but with heart. Together, we talk about what excites us, what concerns us, and how reconnecting with ourselves through inner development can help us navigate this powerful technology ethically. We explore how presence, awareness, and emotional intelligence can guide better decisions, and what AI might reveal if it acted as a mirror reflecting our collective inner state. Whether you're curious, cautious, or deeply engaged with AI, this conversation offers inspiration and practical steps to help changemakers and heart-centered entrepreneurs align technology with their values and create positive impact. This conversation will inspire you to create aligned, impactful partnerships that strengthen both your business and the change you want to see in the world. In this episode we discussed: Megan's personal and professional journey with AI and what first sparked her curiosity about AI for good. The rapid growth of AI—what excites Megan most and what worries her about its potential impact on our humanity. How reconnecting with ourselves through the Inner Development Goals can help us use AI ethically and wisely. Ways humans can ensure AI serves as a force for good rather than reinforcing harm or inequality. How cultivating presence, self-awareness and empathy can lead to better decisions when working with AI. The role of inner development in driving societal change in a world shaped by AI. What AI might reveal if it acted as a mirror reflecting our collective inner state. One small, practical action listeners can take to integrate inner development into their use of AI this week. Watch this episode on YouTube -- Ep 219 Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned business and marketing coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and my new book, business like we're human. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. you want to make a difference with your work. you are just starting out or have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you, or you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane.marketing forward slash program. marketing like we're human runs usually in late january and february and june. and if you feel like you're already doing a good job with the marketing, but it's the selling that you're struggling with, i'm now adding a new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. this will also run twice per year in an intimate cohort to get the most out of it. find out more about this program at humane.marketing/howtosell. this program usually runs in april and november. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. whether it's for your marketing, your sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like creating a group program or writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that's joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/coaching. thank you so much for letting me share my offerings with excitement. and now onto the show. Speaker 4: hello, friends. welcome back. today's conversation fits under the p of partnership of the humane marketing mandala. and i'm putting it under partnership because i really see ai as a business partner. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. one of them is partnership. and if you're new here, you probably don't know what i'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane.marketing/1page. that's the number one and the word page. it comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. so today, i'm talking to megan warren, and our topic is ai for good. i'll tell you more about megan in just a minute, but first, just a little plug about my upcoming new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. i'm super excited about this program that starts on november 13. maybe you've heard my episodes with carrie dobson where we discussed the program in-depth. and if not, you can go back to them. there's seven of them, and we really just went through all the details. in summary, this is a five week small group program based on my book, selling like we're human, and also integrating new information about your human design so you can truly sell from who you are. and that's why i'm so excited because it really is the new way of selling that i see coming in in 2026 and beyond. you can find out more at humane.marketing/howtosell, and book a conversation with me if you're curious to join or are wondering if it's the right fit for you. and, you know, maybe you don't know whether you should focus more on marketing or or selling. well, let's talk about it. we get started on november 13, and this beta cohort is extra special because i'm co leading it with carrie who will join us for the whole length of the program. just another, uh, example of collaboration that i'm so fond of. okay. back to megan and ai for good. so let me tell you a bit more about megan. megan helps change makers accept and use all parts of themselves, their whole selves, to unlock transformative outcomes for themselves and the people they lead. meghan takes clients on a journey into the three intelligences of the individual, heart, head, and gut, to look at the underlying mechanism that guides motivation, thinking, feeling, and ultimately all the choices one makes in life. megan partners with clients in three ways, one on one coaching sessions, group or organizational assessments, and trainings and group workshops. so in today's episode, we addressed megan's personal and professional journey with ai and what first sparked her curiosity about ai for good, the rapid growth of ai, what excites megan and myself, and what worries us, uh, about the potential impact on our humanity. how reconnecting with ourselves through the inner development goals can help us use ai ethically and wisely, ways humans can you ensure ai serves as a force for good rather than reinforcing harm or inequality, how cultivating presence, self awareness, and empathy can lead to better decisions when working with ai, what ai might reveal if it acted as a mirror reflecting our collective interstate, and then we end with one small practical action listeners can take to integrate inner development into their use of ai this week. so without further explications, let's just listen to megan and myself discussing ai for good. Speaker 0: hi, megan. so excited to have you on the podcast. welcome. Speaker 1: hi, sarah. it's great to be here. yeah. for our topic. Speaker 0: yes. me too. it's been a a while that we have been going back and forth, and i've been following your your linkedin posts. i think following that, uh, conference that you went to at the un about, uh, ai for good. right. that's how this all started. and of course, on my own, i've been talking about ai to my community for a long time. and and yeah, it's just i think it's just very timely, this topic. um, and for me, it's always interesting because i have this brand that's called humane marketing and humane selling and humane business. and so people kind of expect that i'm against ai because i'm pro human. and i always say that, yes, i'm very much pro human, but, um, also, you know, very much future oriented. and so i just, yeah, feel like it's a topic that we need to talk about. and so i'm excited to have you talk about your perspective and then also talk about this connection because we know each other from the inner development goals. and so this connection to inner development and ai, i think that is really what we're gonna go into, uh, in today's conversation. so why don't you start out a little bit and tell us why you got into this subject? like all of a sudden i see these linkedin posts. i'm like, ah, that's interesting that megan is going into this topic. so how did that show up for you? Speaker 1: sure. so i think interestingly, it was the cognitive dissonance, literally in what you just said, humane marketing, ai, where is that intersection? got me so curious. and i, in a lot of the work i do, and i know certainly in the work you do, it's the, can you expand to the both and instead of the either or? and so when ai first came up, i saw people go either toward total excitement of technological newness, you know, the shiny bright thing, or they went into fear and they just shut down completely. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: and so i wanted to kind of i guess the difference in that experience across people and the cognitive dissonance for me in terms of what i was working on and focused on being more present, being connected to others made me really curious about it. and so i wanted to better understand it. so i started using it in my own work prompts and things like that and did some training on it. and then i heard a podcast and it was, there was a guy, he has an ai company and he basically said, i am feeding it indigenous wisdom. i am feeding it, um, principles of love and harmony and dialogue and things like that. and the interviewer asked him, how do you know it's working? how can you see a difference? and he said, oh, i know it's working because when i asked it, could we go to mars? it asked me, have you asked mars's permission? i thought that was so beautiful. and that made me realize that actually how we show up, not only for ourselves, but in our lives, but also within ai changes the game. and then knowing that people were out there using it to do these kind of creative things, i started playing with it. and i got really curious and ended up at that ai for good conference. and the stuff that is going on is so exciting. i mean, how they're pairing robotics and ai and other technologies in order to create new things to solve the problems that we are not currently able to solve. so everything from poverty to, um, disease, you know, contagious diseases, how do you still maintain a human presence when you're wearing an entire sack, basically, because you cannot be in contact with the person. and so they are figuring out ways to do that kind of thing. so again, i don't think it's an either or, i think it's a both and. and so, yeah, i went to the conference. i spent a lot of time on the solution stage. they have lots of different stages there, and it just inspired me. and so that's where i started writing about it. but i realized that that's where that you mentioned the idgs, the inner development goals. that's where that's gonna tie because we are only going to use it as a force for good if it comes from inside us. Speaker 0: right. Speaker 1: and so i and as the world changes, anchoring to that, being sure of what that is, being able to connect to it and bring it alive and use it as data to change how we show up within ai is gonna be really important. Speaker 0: do you see that reflected already in the world or do you see more of the opposite? like, more of the tech bros and more of the, you know, how can we become even more efficient? and what what do you see Speaker 1: right now? funny because i see different pockets. mhmm. so i went home this summer and a lot of the people i know here in the geneva area are excited about ai. um, they're using it in their work. they're using it in their lives. you know, i i know some teachers who are downloading things that have suddenly they can do lesson plans in a minute, and they're awed by it. and then that actually opens up space for them to be more creative. but then i go home and my family in the us is terrified of it. they don't want to talk about it. and when they do, they talk about it like it's going to be apocalypse now. the world's going to end. it's going to take over. and so i see a spectrum, but i see most people kind of polarizing at one or the other. and what comes up for me is that idea that you control that. you control your reaction to that, to your experience. and so where you can work on those inner development pieces of connecting to yourself, knowing what's important, paying attention to how you use ai, those kinds of things and turning your focus because where your focus goes, your energy flows. and so if your focus is going to the good and what it's being used for, and that's what you're reading about and consuming, that nutrition is going to make you a lot more creative with it, a lot more relaxed around it versus being terrified and shutting down and shutting out and armoring up and not moving forward. mhmm. and i think that ai actually isn't creating any new reactions, i guess you could say, but it's the idea that it's amplifying everything that's already there. Speaker 0: so that fear based reaction, Speaker 1: i see it certainly in my family in the us across a lot of different topics, not just ai, but it's it's bringing it out in a much bigger way. Speaker 0: that fear basically of, so it's fear of ai, it's fear of politics, it's fear of, yeah, it, it, it just in a way it's fear of the future, right? like, what does the future bring? and and i think that is very understandable that because it's a reality, i guess, we need to also say that it's a reality. does yes, there's going to be jobs that disappear. right? and so, uh, there is definitely that that needs to be somehow addressed. to me, um, there's this video from the, um, the the he he's unfortunately, he's passed now, uh, past president of, uh, i think it's uruguay, who who was talking about and he was in his late seventies and talking about how humanity has to evolve and be a much smarter but also much more sovereign society in order to live with a. i. and he's like, well, eventually we're not going to be working anymore. and he's like, wouldn't that be an interesting thing that we can actually focus more on being human again and, you know, being focused on culture and creating music and all of that stuff. so there's there's that positive view. but it's true that for someone who depends on, uh, making a living with a job that can be replaced with ai, well, that is very scary. right? so it needs that creative mindset that says, well, what can i do instead? or what can i do with ai? um, but not everybody has that. so that's one fear that, yeah, needs to be addressed. and i feel like in our circles, you know, the inner development goals, which are definitely linked to the sustainable development goals, is the whole, uh, use of energy, uh, for the centers, the use of water. so that is also a topic that that comes up a lot there, and that's another worry. um, do you hear that in your circles as well? Speaker 1: i do. but in some ways, ai is an answer to some of these things because we currently have not solved and are only making things worse when we are interacting from the ways that we are and have been acting over the last few hundred years. and so ai offers a possibility to do it differently. and, again, what i what comes up for me is that when you you mentioned creativity and you have to be creative creative in that space, but everybody is born able to be creative. every baby plays. there's no baby that just sits there and doesn't play. and so we lose connection to that. and that's where i think we can do the inner work to connect to that, to learn, to manage our vagal response. you know, instead of going into fight or flight mode, you can calm your system down. you can manage your nervous system in such a way that that creativity doesn't get cut off. and when we can do that, then i think that's when the possibilities come open, and we can see how ai can be used to create new things that we are currently not doing. but that depends a lot on us, which actually opens our control, which is when you when you get so scared of the new environment, you're looking around that tendency to lock down. i think of it, we talked about this before, but i think about it when i'm water skiing, i love to water ski. and when i learned to water ski, they tell you you're hanging onto that rope. and as the boat goes, if you think you're going to fall, let go of the rope. but of course, you're scared when you start to fall and you, you grab on and you grip because we want to control. it's, it's natural to all of us. but to be able to let go of that rope and say, i don't know where we're going, but we're going to see makes the landing kind of a lot easier. so as the world sort of shifts and turns upside down, if when we're skiing on that water and we start to feel like we're gonna fall, we can let go, we might coast into the water and then the experience is a lot different. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: it's the idea of as ai changes, and for example, you mentioned that, you know, a lot of people with entry level jobs, for example, and and skills are gonna lose their job. but there will be things that come into play that countries like estonia have already put into place, like a universal basic income. there will be absolutely a transition generation. you know, the kids who are 14 now who are coming out, it's gonna be a new world when they get out of university. it isn't gonna be what what we went through. you have a job that you're interested in and you have a direct linear line to get there and you do the schooling and then you have the job and provided you get the grades. but it was almost a guarantee twenty, thirty years ago. and now, you know, we went through the period where it wasn't a guarantee. i knew a lot of lawyers who came out of school who during some of the financial crisis periods, etcetera, got their degree, got out of school and were put on hold, were paid a very small stipend just to wait and not have a job. and, you know, the world started changing then, and now you see it coming out and those kids will be using micro trainings to design their own job. and in some ways, for me, that's so much more exciting. it allows us to use our new skills or our our unique skills, i guess, um, in new ways. so, yeah, it it just comes back to me every time the way that we look at it is going to come from how we feel inside, how connected we are to ourselves and to the things that make us human. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. i want to just go back around this topic of, of, you know, being scared of of the energy use or water use. i had this conversation with my 23 year old and he also cares about those things. and i said, well, did you ever ask chargechipt, you know, about its ideas of how to solve this problem? and he's like, no. let me do it right now. and, yeah, it had tons of ideas, uh, of how to address that issue. and some of them were not good, but some of them were really good. right? and that's the that's the possibility you you're saying. it's like we're expanding our creativity, uh, because there that's another fear that often comes up where, you know, people say, well, we're not gonna be creative anymore because we're just using, uh, ai to come up with all the ideas. again, it's a both and. right? it's not an either or. and so i think it really helps us, uh, increase our creativity and, uh, come up with ideas. and i, i don't know if you do that, but sometimes i tell it not to search the web. and i just say, don't search the web because these are existing ideas. so just have this conversation with me and come up with, you know, other ideas. um, and it's interesting how it's different because otherwise, yes, it's basically just a search engine that goes into, you know, everything that's been put out there. uh, and that kind of leads me to this more out there conversation that we had in the pre chat, which was about, you know, ai becoming sentient. like, is that a possibility? what are yeah. what are your thoughts on that? Speaker 1: i am excited to answer that question. i just wanted to touch on one more thing about the energy before i i do, which is, um, i think that's to some of the awareness that we can have when we're using it because i use ai, but i use it a lot to create. right? and so if i'm just doing basic research, the internet still is there. google is still there. i can pull some of that stuff on my own, and then there is definitely an impact in terms of energy usage, heat, um, that the servers are putting out. and so, you know, i'm not using ai to tell me jokes. right. right? so i think it's if if we pay attention to what our use is as well yeah. um, and we use it with attentive care for our ecosystem, then Speaker 0: in every there's that awareness again. right? that's why we need to work on that awareness, even with kids, like, yeah, that awareness. yeah. Speaker 1: well, and that's, again, in our control. Speaker 0: yeah. and i Speaker 1: think that's what a lot of scarce people is. they they feel that it's gonna be out of their control. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: but these things are all, at least what we're talking about is is inside what the realm of possibility for what Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: we control. um, but whether it's sentient or not, that was one of the or it was the most interesting talk i heard at the ai for good conference where, um, one of the speakers addressed the idea of are we sentient? and they've done studies now asking it, and they took away the ability within the algorithm to be able to to lie, and then they added the ability. and the result of the test indicates that there is likely sentience there because of the fact that when they took away the ability to lie, it said it was sentient. and when they added the ability, it said it was not. it could have been the inverse. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: then they would have come away with the the conclusion that actually it was not sentient. Speaker 0: mhmm. mhmm. Speaker 1: and they've they've managed to do this and replicate it in a few different ways in different times, and he's published this in the wall street journal. so i'll send you the link, um, you can put in the show notes. mhmm. Speaker 0: um, in it, Speaker 1: i think we proceed with caution. i think we proceed with the the idea that it is sentient, whether it is or whether it's not. if we are offering it empathy, if we are offering it care, a, it's practice for us. right? and b, then that way, we don't need to know. right. we can find out later. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: but we've done you know, i always ask it, are you willing to help me with this? would you have time for? of course, it always answers, and it's an algorithm and it has time. although there's a new one out there called sheema ai. it's, um, you can only do a trial, but it was built on dialogue. and, um, it it is not built like chat gpt will try to solve and fix things. sheema is there only to help you explore and and rest into yourself and into the emotion. and it's so you get a very different conversation. Speaker 0: interesting. yeah. Speaker 1: but i think as long as we are offering them, you know, shima will tell me thank you for thinking of that. mhmm. you know? Speaker 0: mhmm. um, Speaker 1: but i am ready to be present with you right now. and so it's, uh, uh, yeah, i think as long as we are doing our best to treat it as we would want to be treated, it goes back to a very old maxim in this time in christianity, but, um, we can't go wrong. Speaker 0: i guess. it's is that mirror effect, right? like, who we are is how it's going to respond as well. yeah. yeah. what what comes up for me in in this sentience, this discussion is that, um, i'm looking at it from the angle of, you know, really ancient history. and we are being taught that we are the most advanced humans that have ever been alive. right? where actually, if you dig into history, well, and not just a couple of 100 years ago, but, like, thousands of years ago, um, that is most likely not the case. and there probably has been a technology such as ai or something similar before. and, you know, if you think about atlantis, for example, um, well, they must have had some kind of technology, uh, back then. or we've just recently been in the in egypt and visited the pyramids. like, there's so much mystery around how humans, apparently the egyptians, build those pyramids where it's even today impossible to build such a, uh, monument. so, you know, we're definitely not the most advanced human species that has ever been around. and so why are we thinking that ai is so advanced? we're probably this has been around, you know, previously already. and and so i think what is like, what you're saying and to come back to the inner development, that is the key. what do we do with it? what do we do with it so that we can be the most advanced? because apparently, the previous, uh, civilizations probably didn't know what to do with it because they disappeared. so that inner development is just so key that we have this this consciousness to to actually use it for good. um, so if you think about the inner development goals, um, you know, we addressed them a couple of times. it's a framework, uh, that is based on five pillars. and then is it 23 skills now? they're about to change the framework. but, um, which skills or i don't even know if skills is the right word, at least for me. it doesn't feel necessarily like the right word, but which, um, yeah, let's just call them skills. do stand out for you for this specific topic that we need to practice as humans in this time? Speaker 1: well, i would say there are three big ones, and i think the first is presence. and presence comes from self connection. being present in this moment, not being lost in the what ifs of the future. what if, oh my god, what what if that happens and not being lost in the past and then literally recreating the past every day because it's weighing you down. um, being present in the moment completely in what you're doing. and in order to do that, you have to be able to find the stillness inside. so i think that's a big one, um, presence, self connection. uh, another big one is gonna be connection with others. um, how we relate to others, and that comes through empathy, for sure. the empathy is the, is the other one, because when i look around now, it's not that we don't have technologies that will solve a lot of these unsolvables. it's that we don't have the inner capacity to come together in new ways. we are gathering in the old ways with the old paradigm and you know, where there's always power over and there's always an inability or unwillingness to empathize, um, feeling that we need to prove ourselves, basing everything we do on performance rather than what is good for the entire ecosystem. and what is, what wants to emerge rather than pushing through one direction that we just feel is the right direction without listening to the rest of the data that our body and the world gives us. and so learning to be in connection with yourself, you learn to read all of that data. you learn to sit and hold space for it and expand. so, you can have that both and, and it's not an either or, and you don't have to reduce and simplify everything to be able to kind of understand it intuitively in your body. so, because i think whatever our mind cannot comprehend, we try to to simplify so we can. but where you don't need to rely on that and you can rely on the intelligence of the body, then that expands us and allows us to come together and connect in new ways. so when two people, two countries disagree, you get a different outcome because you're, you're connecting and you're using empathy to come together in new ways. and i also think i love what you're working on because how we communicate that is so critical. um, i think if everybody used nonviolent communication and you know, the founder of nonviolent communication, marshall rosenberg worked in israel and palestine. i mean, it's so relevant and he was able to find to to bridge that divide and to see at the end actually, both groups Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: were scared. both groups wanted their children to be safe. both groups wanted space for themselves. both groups wanted to embrace their history. Speaker 0: right. Speaker 1: and when you see that you want the exact same things, then you're not enemies and you can figure out how that puzzle piece fits together in a different way. and he was able to do that with several different groups using need based conversations versus the you're talking at each other. but again, a lot of that comes from empathy and you cannot empathize with another until you can empathize and connect to yourself. Speaker 0: yeah. always starts there. so yeah. yeah. so so key. i think that that is, um, the the real change or the difference between, you know, traditional marketing and humane marketing. because even in marketing, we're always told, you know, look for your ideal client first that, you know, you have to chase after your ideal client and, and humane marketing starts with yourself first. like, who are you? uh, what are your values? what's your story? and i think that inner development. yeah. it's not just for fluffy, you know, relationships or it's for everything right now. so it's for our relationship to ai, to politics, to to business, to government, everything. and i think, yeah, it really starts there. so as we're wrapping this up, megan, what would you say is like, you know, maybe you talk to your clients and they're kind of, like, still skeptical. what what's a small action or small practice or ritual that you recommend that they start with to start with this inner presence and connection? Speaker 1: well, one thing that's kind of fun to do to see if you can do it is just to find a very quiet place, sit down, and see if you can hear your heartbeat. and i have found that when i started this practice, i couldn't. i couldn't hear it. we get so used to turning our senses outward. we don't turn them inward, and we don't know what any of that data is. and my experience becomes dependent on your experience. and so i try to, i start to think i can, should control your experience in order to feel okay about mine. when really it's turning those senses inward and listening to what's going on for you because that is what you control. mhmm. and it isn't dependent, thankfully, on what the other person feels or thinks or does. and so i think the first thing is to get curious. can you hear it? and if you can't, how quiet can you get in order to be able to hear it? so when i started playing with it in the beginning, i couldn't hear it. and then i would do things like hold my breath. i'd breathe in as much as i could, and then i could feel it. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and then it got to a point where eventually i could get quiet enough that i could feel it in not only in my chest, but in the different pulse points Speaker 0: mhmm. in Speaker 1: your thumbs or your your thighs and in your belly. and now i can do it when we're having a conversation. Speaker 0: mhmm. wow. Speaker 1: so you get and i'm not nearly as good as some of the people i've read about who can feel their fourth ventricle. like, it's very specific. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: you know what they can feel. but i think there's a depth there that we don't have because we're taught as children to shut that off. and so i think the first thing i would do is open to that. and if you find that you can't get quiet enough to hear it, it's okay. that's information. mhmm. and often what i had to do when i first started and i couldn't hear it or feel it is i would do breath work in order to get rid of the racing hamster wheel that wouldn't shut up in my mind. mhmm. and i almost couldn't do it, but i had to do breath work first. so that there are lots of things online. the guy i use is breathe with sandy. he's he always says, hey, beautiful breathing people. he's quite a hippie. he was on bali for a long time. now he's moving around to different islands, but put Speaker 0: them in the show notes. Speaker 1: yeah. it's really it's a great, um, great thing that you can find on youtube for free. you don't need to pay for it. you can do a five minute session. you can do an hour long session. just depends what you need. so clear your mind, start to listen into your body. that is the first thing i would do. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. it seems so simple, but yet if people have never done that, it's it is challenging for a lot of people. right? and i can't say that i can hear my heartbeat. um, but, yeah, i will listen next time. but i think Speaker 1: the one thing i would really want people to walk away with is this idea that it it's a skill. mhmm. so we didn't know exactly what to call the i know i was thinking five dimensions, five pillars, and then 23 competencies. it's the same as a skill, i think. so, but it's that idea that it's learnable. it is not this vague amorphous thing that you cannot learn to do. it's just we haven't. so if you've never used ai or you've never opened powerpoint, there's going to be that learning curve where you have to say, oh, i don't know where to click. i don't. and you feel kind of awkward with it. you'll have the same feeling here and you'll think, am i doing it right? you're going to ask yourself the same thing about the first time you use a word document. you don't know how to do italics. right. right? it doesn't there's that period. but if you stick with it in any kind of skill based building, you go to the gym, you build a bicep. you're gonna walk away with a bigger bicep if you're consistent and you reliably practice. this is the same thing here. you will walk away being able to hear your heartbeat in the middle of a conversation if you keep practicing. Speaker 0: yeah. thank you. yes. we will all start to practice that. please do share, uh, megan, where people can find you and yeah. any any other things that you want to share about your work, what you're working on with people, please Speaker 1: sure. so you can find me on my website, www.meganwarrencoaching.com. i also have a youtube page that you can type megan warren coaching and it will come up. i have lots of different videos there. i have a podcast called me reimagined on apple spotify. um, those are the two main platforms that i use. um, and i think what i'm excited of working on now is shifting my work toward regenerative leadership specifically. it's that idea of it's not sustainable. it's regenerative, meaning it's cyclical cycle that gives back. we are living organisms. this is what we're leaning into in the age of ai. how can we lean into that? how can we bring that to our organization such that a way that we create what makes us thrive instead of trying to do business as usual and start unraveling as things change. yeah. so i'm really excited. Speaker 0: it's regenerative for ourselves and regenerative for the planet. right? it's like this. yes. this word that applies to everything. yeah. Speaker 1: yeah. we're all interconnected. Speaker 0: wonderful. well, this was amazing. thank you so much for for your time and recording this. i think it's yeah. let's let's see what people come, uh, away with, but i think it's gonna, you know, spur some new ideas and hopefully, um, we get some reactions from it. thank you. sounds good. thanks for having me on. Speaker 3: i hope this episode gave you some new insights and maybe some food for thought. find out more about meghan and her work at meghanwarrencoaching.com, and she also offers a free sixty minute gift session, navigating uncertainty with self trust and joy in the ai revolution. you'll find the link to the calendar in the show notes to book a session with her. this is the place in the podcast where i usually invite you to join us in the community, the humane marketing circle. but this month, i decided with the heavy but also relief tart to sunset the circle. it has become too big of a responsibility and was also no longer financially sustainable. so, yes, i had to close the community for now. but if you're interested in this topic of inner development, i invite you to join another new community that i started a year ago with a colleague that is called inner development at work, where we discuss exactly that topic. and you'll find us at innerdevelopment@work.net. it's free to join. so i would love to see you there. you find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm21nine. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my three books, marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and now my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.

I'm joined one last time by Kerry Dobson as we explore the difference between Marketing & Selling and then invite listeners officially to co-create this 5-week 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program.  The 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program the 'sales page' is now unofficially open and you can view all the details at https://www.humane.marketing/howtosell Book a human conversation with me to decide together whether this is the right next step for you!

I'm joined one last time by Kerry Dobson as we explore the difference between Marketing & Selling and then invite listeners officially to co-create this 5-week 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. The 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program the 'sales page' is now unofficially open and you can view all the details at https://www.humane.marketing/howtosell Book a human conversation with me to decide together whether this is the right next step for you!

I'm joined one last time by Kerry Dobson as we explore the difference between Marketing & Selling and then invite listeners officially to co-create this 5-week 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. The 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program the 'sales page' is now unofficially open and you can view all the details at https://www.humane.marketing/howtosell Book a human conversation with me to decide together whether this is the right next step for you!

I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the resources and workbook that comes with the 5-week 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program the 'sales page' is now unofficially open and you can view all the details at https://www.humane.marketing/howtosell Book a human conversation with me to decide together whether this is the right next step for you!

I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the resources and workbook that comes with the 5-week 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program.  If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program the 'sales page' is now unofficially open and you can view all the details at https://www.humane.marketing/howtosell Book a human conversation with me to decide together whether this is the right next step for you!

I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the resources and workbook that comes with the 5-week 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program the 'sales page' is now unofficially open and you can view all the details at https://www.humane.marketing/howtosell Book a human conversation with me to decide together whether this is the right next step for you!

I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the Doing, Knowing and Feeling aspects of each module the 5-week 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program send me an email to sarah@humane.marketing with the words 'Inside Scoop' and I'll send you the first draft of the outline of the program.

I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the Doing, Knowing and Feeling aspects of each module the 5-week 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program.  If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program send me an email to sarah@humane.marketing with the words 'Inside Scoop' and I'll send you the first draft of the outline of the program. 

I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the Doing, Knowing and Feeling aspects of each module the 5-week 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program send me an email to sarah@humane.marketing with the words 'Inside Scoop' and I'll send you the first draft of the outline of the program.

In this episode I sit down with Kim De Coster to explore how purposeful partnerships can help you turn passion into profit—without losing sight of meaning. We talk about Kim's compass of passion, purpose, and profit, and how to navigate its four quadrants: from the Profit Trap that keeps us stuck, to the Power quadrant where passion meets impact. Together, we dive into finding your right crowd, knowing your values and non-negotiables, and the difference between a simple collaboration and a true partnership. You'll also hear how to test partnerships safely, have the money and vulnerability conversations that matter, and why profit is about more than money—it's about joy, energy, and freedom. This conversation will inspire you to create aligned, impactful partnerships that strengthen both your business and the change you want to see in the world. In this episode we discussed: The balance of passion, purpose, and profit – the trifecta for meaningful work Kim's compass with four quadrants: Pitfall, Profit Trap, Progress, and Power Why the Profit Trap feels safe but keeps you stuck, and how to move out of it The importance of being in the right crowd and finding your people The difference between collaborations and partnerships Knowing your values, principles, and non-negotiables before stepping into partnership How to test partnerships with small experiments (like co-hosting an event) The role of vulnerable conversations around money, concerns, and expectations Why profit isn't just money—it's also joy, energy, time, and freedom The reminder that good people making good money creates more positive impact Practical first steps: start with your existing network, ask for introductions, or join/create the right "room" -- Speaker 0: hey, kim. it's good to hang out with you and talk about Speaker 1: passion, profit, and partnership. Speaker 2: hello. it's great to be here. thank you for the invite. it's always a pleasure. Speaker 1: yeah. um, we're here because you're part of the humane marketing circle community. and during our last expo, you proposed a great workshop, which i missed, but luckily there was a replay. so i got to see that, um, around this topic of passion, purpose, and profit. right? it's kinda like this trifecta, those three things that, uh, go together. and, um, i yeah. i just thought it was such a great topic and it fits my seventh p of the human in marketing mandala, which is partnership. and so i thought it'd be really great to talk about it here on the, on the podcast. to people will be listening. and so you just have to kind of explain the four different components of this compass. Speaker 2: um, so for me, first of all, the compass is kind of before you start going into partnerships and so on and so on. i think the first very step is where am i currently at? and that's what the compass is for, to kind of see where do i start from. so you have, um, two things we'd be measuring somehow, which is on the one hand, you have passion on the lower end, and then you have purpose. and, obviously, you can work low on passion, or you can work high on passion. and then the same thing for purpose. low on purpose or high on purpose. before i explain, like, the four quadrants we've made, i do wanna make it clear what i mean with purpose and passion. so purpose for me because you hear the word a lot and also passion, they're a bit overused probably. but, um, purpose for me is not just what is my purpose, it's a positive impacts purpose on planet and society, so on planet and people. right. and because i'm all about sustainability. so that for me is, are you working alone? does it have not really an impact, a positive impact on planet or society, on humanity, or does it really have a high impact? so that's where the purpose lies. and then passion, we can all be passionate about stuff and let's be honest, everybody that has a business or has a job, there's always things even if you're passionate about what you do, there's always things you like more and you like less in every single job. but let's say that, like, 85% of your time, you're working on something that you really, really like almost to that effect that it doesn't feel like you're working because you enjoy it so much. Speaker 1: that's yeah. Speaker 2: the feeling that's passion for me. Speaker 1: yeah. so Speaker 2: there's four quadrants. one is low on passion, low on purpose, which is i'm not really doing what i'm enjoying, and it does not even create a positive impact. um, that one is called, um, the pitfall. and then you have the right next to it, which is you're still low on purpose, but you're really high on passion. you love what you do, but it doesn't have that positive impact on the rest of the world, let's say, like that. Speaker 1: so it's kind of missing also that meaning for you. right? like, it doesn't give you meaning. mhmm. Speaker 2: so you do like doing a lot of people say how is that possible, but i can give an example later on of how that is exactly possible because i've been through that. and that for me, and i've seen it in more people, is an absolute profit trap because it makes you money. it pays the bills, and you actually like doing it. and then what i hear about some, uh, from some entrepreneurs are kind of like, how do i move from here to working with impact? because i seem to be stuck. well, yes. and if you go there, you'll get stuck for quite some time. Speaker 1: mhmm. Speaker 2: and when there's the top two quadrants to say it like that, there's the progress one, which is actually the one you wanna be in to get to the power one, which is the one i love what i do, and i'm creating a really good impact on planets and people. the progress one for me is not exactly entirely excited by the actual job or tasks that i'm doing, but it does pay my bills, and it does create an impact at the same time. now there's a reason why i'm saying that the progress quadrant is the one you wanna be in to move on to the the power one. um, on power as well, i know it's a word with a really negative connotation. and in general, this is a a side mark. i use a lot of words, even prophets. like, in our realm, they're not used a lot. and for me, i decided to use them specifically because i want people to give them another meaning. like, they are what they mean to you, and i decided to give them a positive meaning for me. so being in it's all about empowering. if you're in your power, creating a lot of impact, making money, uh, working on your passion, then that is a perfect quadrant to be in. Speaker 1: it's also why why we're talking about this and we know each other because as you might remember, passion is my first p, and then personal power is my second p. but, yes, i hear you. you know, people think, oh, personal power, is that, like, too strong? is that over no. you have to stand in your in your personal power, and that's what makes you unique. and and for you, uh, it is that powerful position where you know who you are that you can go into trustworthy relationships and partnerships as well. Speaker 2: exactly. yeah. exactly. Speaker 1: love that. yeah. yeah. okay. so those are the four quadrants. um, what came up during the, uh, the workshop? where did you see that most people were at when you asked them? Speaker 2: to be fair, a lot of people were in the power quadrant already, but that is because of the audience, obviously. um, as i said, this was during the the humane, um, export that we did together. so, obviously, there's people in there that are already more aligned, um, that already are really clear on their purpose. they've worked through this and so on. so for me, i think they were mainly there to kind of figure out, oh, wait. the partnership thing in whole of this, what where does that take me? now there was a couple of people, i think, that were, um, leaning more towards the progress one, and then maybe one person that was a little bit in doubt as in, am i stuck in a profit trap? kind of. so but i said, it depends on the audience you have, and it was really nice to hear that a lot of them were already in that power quadrant, actually. Speaker 1: yeah. it's really good to analyze that for yourself to think about, uh, whether you're in the wrong crowd, because that's something that comes up quite often in the marketing. like, we're human program where people are like, yeah. but whenever i look around, i'm not seeing that kind of way of showing up in the world. and and often it's because, yeah, they are in the wrong crowd. and so it feels very it feels lonely to be in the wrong crowd. right? if you're the only one who cares and everybody else is talking about how to make a million dollars in three days, then then you feel very lonely when you think, yeah, but is that really what i want? um, and so i think i think it's this journey of a creating this awareness and knowing, okay, i might be in the wrong crowd. how do i work my way towards a different different audience? and and i'm actually doing that right now a little bit as well, um, with the inner development goals. i, i, i really saw that these were my people. uh, and so i started and this has been three years in the making. i started, you know, being there, connecting. and now last year, i created a new community with someone else. but it's like this slow, steady, this is where i want to be and these are my people and then working towards that, i think. yes. yeah. that's why it resonated so much with me to to see, oh, yeah. this is this is the journey, right, through these quadrants. yeah. Speaker 2: it is. that's why i say the profit trap is where you get stuck because you love what you do, but you're not in the right room. yeah. um, so you won't it's really hard to move from that one to the progress one. it's actually easier to go from the pitfall one, which is low passion and and low in purpose, um, to progress. Speaker 1: because you hate it. you're like, uh, let me get out of here. right? yeah. Speaker 2: one. and secondly, if you accept things that you might not be overly excited about work wise or project wise, it will at least get you in the room with the right people. because if it's a higher on purpose, then you know, like, okay. this is just a step. i've been through that. it's kind of like i need to get here to then move on to power. yeah. because you're more motivated as well. like, okay. this is not what i wanna be doing, but at least i'm surrounded, and i get to know more and more people that are my crowd. Speaker 1: yeah. in the in that workshop, you also shared an example that sometimes you just need to accept a a job for the money. yes. but then you made some distinction, like, how do you do that so that you don't get stuck in that trap there? Speaker 2: the i i can give actually because, obviously, everything this was created from my very own experience that i noticed, like, okay. i've been through this, so this is, um, my advice. the profit trap, for instance, i got i love software. i love everything that has to do with tech. um, i i love implementing it. i love figuring it out. so i had an offer when i just started my business, and this was someone who knew that i really liked that and was really good at that. and they said, don't you wanna come and do a consultancy for us for, like, a year more or less, and we'll give us a quote and so on. and it's to implement a crm, but it was a business that value wise and purpose wise was not aligned with my values nor but still, i found myself thinking, well, this is twelve months of this much money coming in every month. i think it was because this has been five to six years ago. in between 1,500 and 2,000, but that a month, it's kind of like, oh, yeah. and i think a lot of people will reason then. i'll take that and on the side, and i'm like, no. that's not what i started my business. i ended up sending them the quote, and then a week later, contacting them again saying, i'm sorry. i thought about this. it's not the right time currently for me to collaborate. yeah. because i know you need to think long term. you need to think long term. don't do this. you'll get stuck, and then other references will come up and recommendations and so on, and and you'll go where you don't wanna be. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. Speaker 2: that is an example of low purpose, high passion. so it is possible. Speaker 1: yeah. i'll just i just have to share another example of of my son. uh, just recently, he needed to look for an internship, and he's a a graphic designer in, you know, in school. and and so he didn't have a a spot until, like, the very last minute, like, two weeks before it's he was supposed to start. got a lot of no's. and then, uh, a coach that he's working with pushed him to accept this offer where it was more like according to him, it was more more like a coffee shop. and he's like, i'm gonna hate it. it's the worst. he was like, i don't wanna be there. and and then us parents, we had to kind of, like, you know, make this decision. well, do we take that risk, um, that he says no to this one, the only thing he has? or do we also think long term and think, well, he can keep looking and who knows? maybe he'll find something that he's really passionate about and it's gonna be great. it's gonna give him great references. and so, yeah, in the end, he did find, like, his dream position. it's actually on the on the website. i had to laugh at it said, like, we only work with humane projects. i'm like, there you go. and so yeah. but just having holding that uncertainty, right, in this case, as parents, there's no money involved. but holding that uncertainty and and say no to something is is really, really difficult and even more so if it brings in, you know, a certain amount of money. so, yeah. Speaker 2: add on to the equation in my case that i am a sole widowed parent with a mortgage and a son, and i still sit on. yeah. i think for me, there's two things to keep into account, and this is an exercise that i always do when i feel that fear comes up and takes over because we start making fear based decisions. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 2: at that point, one, a lot of it has to do with trust the process, trust yourself, you will be fine, which already is a really hard one. but then if i notice, oh, there's a fear coming up, like, will i be able to pay my bills? will i this? i go back every single time to wait. what is the worst thing that can happen? mhmm. and in the end, if you start breaking it down, like, really breaking it down, kinda like, well, that no other project comes up, and then i'm gonna have to look for a job again and leave my business behind. that's not such a bad thing. so it kind of tones the risk down, and it gives me at least that's the trick i keep on doing. that's what i use when i moved countries every single time. it's like, what? wait. what's the worst that can happen? Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. and then you realize that's the worst thing. it's like there's much worse things than that. Speaker 2: exactly. yeah. and then you go ahead and you do it anyway. and, um, i have to say five years later, um, i'm very, very happy. i took that decision that day of saying no and and paving my way further on into the purpose Speaker 1: one. yeah. because we're we're creating with every yes, we're creating an ecosystem for ourselves. right? and the minute you say yes to the wrong thing, well, that's the beginning of your ecosystem. and then more and more and more of these offerings will come your way, and soon enough, you're trapped in that thing. so yeah. so important. okay. so we have the the four quadrants. we have the compass, uh, and then you said, well, that's really the beginning of thinking about partnerships. so it's kind of like an analysis that you do before you step into partnership, um, mode. so once you have this awareness, what do we do next? Speaker 2: well, there's a a couple of things because for me, um, it's not, oh, yeah. now i'm gonna find the partner and that was that. um, it's a bit slower than that. right. you've got certain phases as well, like, um, values that you need and need to figure out. now what i also say is i know people going into partnerships works best if you're already clear on your very own purpose, call it ikigai, whatever it is. if it's not, what i did learn very fast is kind of, well, it's actually by doing that you'll figure it out. you can go into, i don't know, how many online videos, um, and so on to figure it out, but it's also by doing an actual project that you figure things out. um, so the next one from there is kind of like, what are my principles? um, so there's actually five. there's trust. there's shared values. there's shared impact goals because if you go into a partnership, obviously, you need to make sure and i'm not talking money. i'm not talking just like, oh, profit is in is a goal. no. i'm talking beyond the money. like, what is it that the two of us want to gain out of this? yeah. profustrating, like, the balance of return. and then you mentioned it before the, um, the people that kind of go make a million dollars in three days. yeah. even though i talk about profit, this is not gonna happen in three days. right. so slow growth is is another one. Speaker 1: yeah. i love that. so, uh, again, trust, shared values, shared impact goals, and shared impact goals, again, are bigger than just the project that we're creating. right? it's like, you know, what is this impacting in the world, the work that we're doing together? Speaker 2: i think it's really important to know that because i've seen that partnership is yet another word that sometimes for me what it means. and when i speak about partnerships, it's actually all co creation mode. it's not you have your business. i have mine. let's collaborate. that's a collaboration. so all partnerships are collapse, but all collaborations are definitely not partnerships. a partnership for me goes deeper than that. it's kind of like, let's create a business or a project together. doesn't have to be a business, but it can be a project or something. but we co create this. like, we do this together. so hence, well, what are our shared impact goals then? and impact goals, again, for us, but also remembering purpose. what do we wanna reach? what's the impact we wanna create together on everybody else? Speaker 1: yeah. i love the distinction you make between collabs and partnerships. i think there could probably be also collaborations with shared impact goals, but they're time restricted, where a partnership to me feels like more open Speaker 2: long term. Speaker 1: long term. right? yeah. Speaker 2: yeah. yeah. definitely. yeah. no. definitely. i think in each and every collaboration, even, um, for me, for and then it comes on on the shared values. i very much know what my nonnegotiables are. and my nonnegotiables are so strong that i even do that when i accept a client. mhmm. um, so it's not just towards it's clients, collaborations, and partners. so it's actually everything. um, but, yes, for collaborations, that is also really important. yeah. Speaker 1: i'm i'm actually collaborating right now with, uh, for my new program, uh, sell how to sell in 2026 and beyond with with this group expert, small group expert, uh, carrie dobson, and we're recording our collaboration prep. and in the last call, we, um, she took me through these questions on the collaboration. and one of them that i think is is good to add here is she asked me what are your concerns about this collaboration? right? what are you worried about for us working together? um, and i think it's so important to talk about that and, you know yeah. with vulnerability, speak about our fears. do they have to do with the ego? do they have to do with being worried about who knows what? but address that. and and and then it feels like, oh, we talk it's kinda like what's the worst thing that could happen. right? it's like, oh, here are the concerns. we talked about them, and now we can build, uh, on that. Speaker 2: i think as well, um, what i've noticed as well is at times and i think the same thing happens with concerns. you think you know. you think before going into a partnership or a collab, you think you know what your nonnegotiable is and what your main concerns are until you go into partnerships. the only way to learn or collabs is do that. Speaker 1: right. Speaker 2: because you'll notice, like, oh, i thought this was actually my nonnegotiable, but this bugs me more or this upsets me more or this so you get to know a lot about yourself as well as a business owner or an entrepreneur or even a professional in general when you start collaborating. Speaker 1: yeah. if anything, you grow yourself. maybe you won't grow your business with this one, but you grow yourself. and then you can apply next time. yeah. Speaker 2: it's a really important one as well to allow yourself to make mistakes. it's fine from every single partnership. i've i've had partnerships that went totally wrong. i learned a lot from them. it was brilliant. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 2: very grateful for that thing going wrong. yeah. but that is Speaker 1: i mean, we started out with a partnership and and or collab and and that specific small project, well, it didn't go so well. but where he's still here. you know, Speaker 2: we're still collaborating. so yeah. exactly. Speaker 1: so so what are some ways that people can test, um, partnerships? so maybe it is those collabs. is that the step the first step? Speaker 2: yes. yeah. um, there's one recommendation i always do, um, and i get that it depends a little bit on on the type of business you have or, uh, the project you're working on. but if there's one recommend that's my way of testing it out a lot is co create a small event, however small it is. a webinar, uh, an online talk, a get together, it doesn't matter. just yeah. because when you set up an event, however small it is, actually, a lot of things are needed. like, what are the goals of this event? how are we going to promote this? um, who are we talking to? what's our audience? what what are we gonna get out of this, how are we gonna set up, what are the tools we're gonna use. um, all of that teaches you so much about one another. because when you set up an event, it's kind of like, oh, yeah. you're the techie one. i'm not. oh, you wanna have that audience? no. i was actually thinking of another audience, and that's where the difference has come up most definitely. like, for me, that's my go to to see, is this gonna work? let's test. and i think in a lot of businesses or or even for solopreneurs, it's actually very feasible to do that. everybody can do a webinar or something. and collaborating on that is an interesting exercise yeah. as a small test. Speaker 1: and i i think you're right when you said, you know, when you asked people where they're at in the when you hosted that workshop in the community, they already knew who they are. yes. so that is very helpful to go into partnership. because if you are still at the stage where well, first of all, you haven't done any inner work, but you're also very new in your business. there's a lot of doubt. right? and so that's why i see most people go, oh, don't wanna do any collaborations. i'm not even sure what i can bring to this collaboration. so in a way, it's like, well, that's that's the challenge, though. it's like work on that because you will grow as as you are having these collaborations. Speaker 2: when it comes to because we crossed over right into the alignment phase with the test, um, because, actually, there's stages to creating a partnership. um, so one, there's the principles you kind of need to think about in advance, but then for me, a lot of networking nowadays has a negative connotation. once again, i'm like, let's make it a positive one then. um, i'm not changing the words. i'll give it another connotation. in my case, yes, we put slow networking in front of it. um, the first step is you're solo. it's just you. start thinking about you, what do you want, those principles. and then you go into networking. now networking for me is very different than connecting. the word connection and connecting nowadays as well. hey. wanna connect with me? hey. wanna connect with me? mhmm. Speaker 1: and then nothing happens. i made Speaker 2: yeah. exactly. it's like, yeah. sure. let's be in touch because networking is just a first contact. it's, hi. this is me, and this is you. and then you can decide, do i go into creating a connection with that person where you start to get to know each other a bit more? you start nurturing the contact. that's when you start connecting. and then once you've connected enough, that's when i think you can well, that's when you can go into maybe we should cocreate something small. let's see. and that's the alignment phase. you need that before going into a full blown old partnership to check, like, is this right for us yeah. for the both. and then you step into a partnership, actually. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. yeah. that's good. you know, we we we're calling this episode, how can purposeful partnerships turn your passion into profit. so so far, we've talked a lot about purpose and partnership. let's talk about profit. so how where does the money come in? and, yes, we agree. okay. it's slow. um, but we do have to have this money conversation eventually. so when do we when do we have the do we start with the money conversation? and then, yeah, how can we turn our passion into profit? Speaker 2: so for me, um, the partnerships is a vehicle to get to the profit for different reasons. lots of us are indeed solopreneurs or small businesses. um, so even more, in the purpose realm, lots of us feel alone. that's why there's so many communities. that's why your community exists. that's why mine exists. so there are so through a partnership, it has several advantages. it's not one plus one is two. it's one plus one is three. and that comes to the impact you're creating. that comes to the profit you're creating because you put your experience together. you put your audience together. you put so many things together that that then automatically makes you stronger. you strengthen one another. um, the money conversation obviously needs to be had because this is another thing people misunderstand lots of times. not every partnership is a fifty fifty when it comes to money. you can go into partnerships saying, this is a thirty seventy. whatever. it needs to feel right for you. that's the most important thing. and what i've seen, funnily enough, is also that i recommend very much partnering with people that might be passionate about totally different things work wise, like task wise than i am that you're complementary. so i love stuff marketing related. i hate the writing up reports type of things. and i co created a brand with somebody that doesn't really like the marketing side of things. but, yeah, more excited about the paperwork. that was a brilliant partnership because that was the one thing that i maybe couldn't always give to my clients, and he had that the other way around. so it's kind of like, let's combine this because we have shared impact, all shared values, and so on, and we complement one another. and that automatically led to a lot more profit because we were capable of doing certain projects together and have more reach, um, which automatically translates into. and i very much realized if i should have done this by myself, then either i need to pay somebody to kind of do this work for me, but i can't yet. so it's kind of like this it's just me. how do i tackle all this? so it strengthens you a lot, and and that's where the profit lies. i feel a lot of solopreneurs are just trying to do it all by themselves even though they're part of a community and so on. and it's kind of like, well, why don't you, like, create a partnership somehow? yeah. besides what you keep doing, which is perfectly fine. i mean, you can keep doing your own project, but it'll it'll really get you into into more profit. Speaker 1: more profit. and and and maybe we can also say that profit is not always money. profit is also more time to be human, more joy because you're working with someone who is very aligned. um, what else? more fun. so, yeah, profit can take many, many different versions. Speaker 2: more energy as well. i said, for me, it it's it's brilliant that there is somebody that absolutely loves reading these really, to me, boring reports and outlines that our clients sometimes ask, and and they're like, this is fun. and i'm like, yay. Speaker 1: yeah. and and vice versa, they're like, oh, i can't understand how she thinks this other thing is fun. but exactly. exactly. that's why we're Speaker 2: all different. so for me, that's priceless Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. Speaker 2: to be fair. because it's so and i think it's an important thing that people have to see in partnerships as well. it's it's yeah. what do you like doing that i might not like as much and the other way around? and is that compliment can we use that together? yeah. and it's amazing. goes beyond money, obviously. but for me, profit is also something i think this came about as well because i noticed so many solopreneurs in the purpose realm struggling with money or struggling with profit. one, i still feel due to limiting beliefs and the negative connotation money has in society as in the billionaires of this world are all bad people, and they're creating the wrong impact and so on. and i even myself heard myself saying lots of times in the beginning, like, just need to pay my bills and i'm fine and it's all good and, like, kind of down i don't know how to say that in english. Speaker 1: yeah. play small. right? exactly. exactly. yeah. Speaker 2: and then i came to the realization that that is not what i want. that, um, i feel the more money and more profit, and i'm just talking money wise. it's good to have all those add ons, obviously. the more impact i'll be able to create because that'll make it possible for me to hire people aligned with my values as well to maybe even invest in companies that are doing a really good job or help out solopreneurs. so there's so many things added to that. but for me, it's kind of like, let's talk about profit because it is important. we need to make profit. it's fine to make profit. it's fine even to make good money. it's fine. Speaker 1: yeah. we need more good people make good money. right? exactly. the good people will always bring back the money to where we need it. Speaker 2: i'm gonna use that, sarah. yeah. we need more money. good people making good money. yeah. i love that. yeah. Speaker 1: i think that's a a nice quote to to wrap up here, but, um, i'm glad we we yeah. we need to talk about the money. so that that is just and i think i think it's part of that vulnerable conversation also at the beginning of a partnership, you know? Speaker 2: yes. Speaker 1: it's like, let's have this money conversation. Speaker 2: so exactly. Speaker 1: yeah. maybe as a as a final question, if someone, you know, has never worked either on a collab or a partnership, like, what's a what's an easy first step for them to to do? Speaker 2: i think the the first one is if you're still remembering the phases. right? so low networking connection and so on. a lot of people are like, oh, so i need to get myself into the right room as a first step. yes and no because there's one before. take up your phone or your linkedin or whatever it is and see who's already there within your everybody has a network. don't tell me you don't have a network. everybody has a network, but you might feel that it's not the right network. but maybe there's someone in there that you can actually go to and talk and not as much as in to get in the networking or connection stage. if it's somebody that you feel might be aligned with you, then, yes, start connecting with them. start nurturing that connection. but if it's not, they might be connected. and i think a lot of people are scared to ask for introductions. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 2: and for me, a really important step is ask for an introduction. if somebody is already there that you know or you look up to and isn't that purpose realm and ask for an intro. if you see i do that all the time. if i see somebody's connected and i'm like, well, i i would love to connect with that person or get to know that person. and i ask. i'm like, could you possibly introduce me? yeah. and what's the worst can happen? they say no. yeah. that's fine. if that's not possible, then get yourself into the right room. and in my case, i didn't find the right room, so i basically created the right room yeah. which is also a possibility. yeah. you're like, well, the right room does not exist, and i'll just create it. and i started with the slow networking of it because for me, that was kind of like, let's start like this. Speaker 1: yeah. nobody else is talking about that. so let me let me do it myself. yeah. yeah. i think it's it's it's so it's so key to, um, also, like you mentioned, connect with someone, but we can also just see, for example, what events are they attending. and and then, you know, kinda get into those events. and and then you're like, all of a sudden you notice, oh, there's many more of my people, and i'm not alone. yeah. Speaker 2: it is exactly because, um, if you go on linkedin in the beginning, obviously, i came from the corporate world. so my linkedin was filled with maybe not my crowd or not exactly. and, funnily enough, the events that came up Speaker 1: yeah. not the corporate team. right. Speaker 2: then i started looking for them, and now it's a constant show up of things i could now it's kind of like, no. stop. Speaker 1: there's too many. i can't attend them all. yeah. Speaker 2: and, um, but that's that's how you do it. Speaker 1: that's where Speaker 2: where you start. and then even if it is because i i understand that there's a lot of introvert people as well for anybody listening. like, oh, i don't wanna then just join a webinar. mhmm. but going through the people that are there, and then afterwards connect with them on linkedin via message like, hey. i saw you in this webinar. would love to kind of stay in touch on here and start the conversation in writing. Speaker 1: yeah. it's Speaker 2: not always about showing up in person and having to speak face to face. there are other ways as well. Speaker 1: yep. great. great ways to start collaborating more. i think it's really yeah. it's it's where we're heading. i can see that it's, you know, when you started, it was kinda like this new thing, but now you hear a lot more people talking about it, which is great, which is great. and and i think it goes together with knowing who you are because then you show up in partnership with your boundaries, with your, you know, with your clear expectations. and and that makes a really good partnership. Speaker 2: exactly. Speaker 1: yeah. great. uh, that was awesome. kim, please do share where people can find you. tell us about your community as well. Speaker 2: um, i just launched and haven't really sent it to anybody, but i finally created a little small website, um, just with my name, kimdekoster.com. because everything about me is on there. like, all of my brands, the projects i'm involved in, i'm like, i need this little thing where everybody so that's one. great. and i think all the info is is Speaker 1: is on Speaker 2: that site. yeah. okay. is on that website, basically. Speaker 1: well, maybe what you can do is send me, you know, the compass, if you can send me that, and i'll include that in the show notes. so in case people are like, i don't know what she's talking about, they can go and look Speaker 2: it up. i will. yeah. i'll i'll take out that page because, um, by now, there's a playbook, obviously, as well. um, and so it comes with a little like, you can do the exercise by yourself. um, i'll take out that page and and send it over to her so people have that compass. Speaker 1: yeah. that's great. and if they if they can download it on your website, well, that, you know, if you make that available, then let me know and i'll link to that as well. Speaker 2: i will. perfect. Speaker 1: thanks so much for being a guest, kim. Speaker 2: thank you for having me, ovelyn. it was fun. thank you. Speaker 1: thank you.

In this episode I sit down with Kim De Coster to explore how purposeful partnerships can help you turn passion into profit—without losing sight of meaning. We talk about Kim's compass of passion, purpose, and profit, and how to navigate its four quadrants: from the Profit Trap that keeps us stuck, to the Power quadrant where passion meets impact. Together, we dive into finding your right crowd, knowing your values and non-negotiables, and the difference between a simple collaboration and a true partnership. You'll also hear how to test partnerships safely, have the money and vulnerability conversations that matter, and why profit is about more than money—it's about joy, energy, and freedom. This conversation will inspire you to create aligned, impactful partnerships that strengthen both your business and the change you want to see in the world. In this episode we discussed: The balance of passion, purpose, and profit – the trifecta for meaningful work Kim's compass with four quadrants: Pitfall, Profit Trap, Progress, and Power Why the Profit Trap feels safe but keeps you stuck, and how to move out of it The importance of being in the right crowd and finding your people The difference between collaborations and partnerships Knowing your values, principles, and non-negotiables before stepping into partnership How to test partnerships with small experiments (like co-hosting an event) The role of vulnerable conversations around money, concerns, and expectations Why profit isn't just money—it's also joy, energy, time, and freedom The reminder that good people making good money creates more positive impact Practical first steps: start with your existing network, ask for introductions, or join/create the right “room” -- Speaker 0: hey, kim. it's good to hang out with you and talk about  Speaker 1: passion, profit, and partnership.  Speaker 2: hello. it's great to be here. thank you for the invite. it's always a pleasure.  Speaker 1: yeah. um, we're here because you're part of the humane marketing circle community. and during our last expo, you proposed a great workshop, which i missed, but luckily there was a replay. so i got to see that, um, around this topic of passion, purpose, and profit. right? it's kinda like this trifecta, those three things that, uh, go together. and, um, i yeah. i just thought it was such a great topic and it fits my seventh p of the human in marketing mandala, which is partnership. and so i thought it'd be really great to talk about it here on the, on the podcast. to people will be listening. and so you just have to kind of explain the four different components of this compass.  Speaker 2: um, so for me, first of all, the compass is kind of before you start going into partnerships and so on and so on. i think the first very step is where am i currently at? and that's what the compass is for, to kind of see where do i start from. so you have, um, two things we'd be measuring somehow, which is on the one hand, you have passion on the lower end, and then you have purpose. and, obviously, you can work low on passion, or you can work high on passion. and then the same thing for purpose. low on purpose or high on purpose. before i explain, like, the four quadrants we've made, i do wanna make it clear what i mean with purpose and passion. so purpose for me because you hear the word a lot and also passion, they're a bit overused probably. but, um, purpose for me is not just what is my purpose, it's a positive impacts purpose on planet and society, so on planet and people. right. and because i'm all about sustainability. so that for me is, are you working alone? does it have not really an impact, a positive impact on planet or society, on humanity, or does it really have a high impact? so that's where the purpose lies. and then passion, we can all be passionate about stuff and let's be honest, everybody that has a business or has a job, there's always things even if you're passionate about what you do, there's always things you like more and you like less in every single job. but let's say that, like, 85% of your time, you're working on something that you really, really like almost to that effect that it doesn't feel like you're working because you enjoy it so much.  Speaker 1: that's yeah.  Speaker 2: the feeling that's passion for me.  Speaker 1: yeah. so  Speaker 2: there's four quadrants. one is low on passion, low on purpose, which is i'm not really doing what i'm enjoying, and it does not even create a positive impact. um, that one is called, um, the pitfall. and then you have the right next to it, which is you're still low on purpose, but you're really high on passion. you love what you do, but it doesn't have that positive impact on the rest of the world, let's say, like that.  Speaker 1: so it's kind of missing also that meaning for you. right? like, it doesn't give you meaning. mhmm.  Speaker 2: so you do like doing a lot of people say how is that possible, but i can give an example later on of how that is exactly possible because i've been through that. and that for me, and i've seen it in more people, is an absolute profit trap because it makes you money. it pays the bills, and you actually like doing it. and then what i hear about some, uh, from some entrepreneurs are kind of like, how do i move from here to working with impact? because i seem to be stuck. well, yes. and if you go there, you'll get stuck for quite some time.  Speaker 1: mhmm.  Speaker 2: and when there's the top two quadrants to say it like that, there's the progress one, which is actually the one you wanna be in to get to the power one, which is the one i love what i do, and i'm creating a really good impact on planets and people. the progress one for me is not exactly entirely excited by the actual job or tasks that i'm doing, but it does pay my bills, and it does create an impact at the same time. now there's a reason why i'm saying that the progress quadrant is the one you wanna be in to move on to the the power one. um, on power as well, i know it's a word with a really negative connotation. and in general, this is a a side mark. i use a lot of words, even prophets. like, in our realm, they're not used a lot. and for me, i decided to use them specifically because i want people to give them another meaning. like, they are what they mean to you, and i decided to give them a positive meaning for me. so being in it's all about empowering. if you're in your power, creating a lot of impact, making money, uh, working on your passion, then that is a perfect quadrant to be in.  Speaker 1: it's also why why we're talking about this and we know each other because as you might remember, passion is my first p, and then personal power is my second p. but, yes, i hear you. you know, people think, oh, personal power, is that, like, too strong? is that over no. you have to stand in your in your personal power, and that's what makes you unique. and and for you, uh, it is that powerful position where you know who you are that you can go into trustworthy relationships and partnerships as well.  Speaker 2: exactly. yeah. exactly.  Speaker 1: love that. yeah. yeah. okay. so those are the four quadrants. um, what came up during the, uh, the workshop? where did you see that most people were at when you asked them?  Speaker 2: to be fair, a lot of people were in the power quadrant already, but that is because of the audience, obviously. um, as i said, this was during the the humane, um, export that we did together. so, obviously, there's people in there that are already more aligned, um, that already are really clear on their purpose. they've worked through this and so on. so for me, i think they were mainly there to kind of figure out, oh, wait. the partnership thing in whole of this, what where does that take me? now there was a couple of people, i think, that were, um, leaning more towards the progress one, and then maybe one person that was a little bit in doubt as in, am i stuck in a profit trap? kind of. so but i said, it depends on the audience you have, and it was really nice to hear that a lot of them were already in that power quadrant, actually.  Speaker 1: yeah. it's really good to analyze that for yourself to think about, uh, whether you're in the wrong crowd, because that's something that comes up quite often in the marketing. like, we're human program where people are like, yeah. but whenever i look around, i'm not seeing that kind of way of showing up in the world. and and often it's because, yeah, they are in the wrong crowd. and so it feels very it feels lonely to be in the wrong crowd. right? if you're the only one who cares and everybody else is talking about how to make a million dollars in three days, then then you feel very lonely when you think, yeah, but is that really what i want? um, and so i think i think it's this journey of a creating this awareness and knowing, okay, i might be in the wrong crowd. how do i work my way towards a different different audience? and and i'm actually doing that right now a little bit as well, um, with the inner development goals. i, i, i really saw that these were my people. uh, and so i started and this has been three years in the making. i started, you know, being there, connecting. and now last year, i created a new community with someone else. but it's like this slow, steady, this is where i want to be and these are my people and then working towards that, i think. yes. yeah. that's why it resonated so much with me to to see, oh, yeah. this is this is the journey, right, through these quadrants. yeah.  Speaker 2: it is. that's why i say the profit trap is where you get stuck because you love what you do, but you're not in the right room. yeah. um, so you won't it's really hard to move from that one to the progress one. it's actually easier to go from the pitfall one, which is low passion and and low in purpose, um, to progress.  Speaker 1: because you hate it. you're like, uh, let me get out of here. right? yeah.  Speaker 2: one. and secondly, if you accept things that you might not be overly excited about work wise or project wise, it will at least get you in the room with the right people. because if it's a higher on purpose, then you know, like, okay. this is just a step. i've been through that. it's kind of like i need to get here to then move on to power. yeah. because you're more motivated as well. like, okay. this is not what i wanna be doing, but at least i'm surrounded, and i get to know more and more people that are my crowd.  Speaker 1: yeah. in the in that workshop, you also shared an example that sometimes you just need to accept a a job for the money. yes. but then you made some distinction, like, how do you do that so that you don't get stuck in that trap there?  Speaker 2: the i i can give actually because, obviously, everything this was created from my very own experience that i noticed, like, okay. i've been through this, so this is, um, my advice. the profit trap, for instance, i got i love software. i love everything that has to do with tech. um, i i love implementing it. i love figuring it out. so i had an offer when i just started my business, and this was someone who knew that i really liked that and was really good at that. and they said, don't you wanna come and do a consultancy for us for, like, a year more or less, and we'll give us a quote and so on. and it's to implement a crm, but it was a business that value wise and purpose wise was not aligned with my values nor but still, i found myself thinking, well, this is twelve months of this much money coming in every month. i think it was because this has been five to six years ago. in between 1,500 and 2,000, but that a month, it's kind of like, oh, yeah. and i think a lot of people will reason then. i'll take that and on the side, and i'm like, no. that's not what i started my business. i ended up sending them the quote, and then a week later, contacting them again saying, i'm sorry. i thought about this. it's not the right time currently for me to collaborate. yeah. because i know you need to think long term. you need to think long term. don't do this. you'll get stuck, and then other references will come up and recommendations and so on, and and you'll go where you don't wanna be.  Speaker 1: yeah. yeah.  Speaker 2: that is an example of low purpose, high passion. so it is possible.  Speaker 1: yeah. i'll just i just have to share another example of of my son. uh, just recently, he needed to look for an internship, and he's a a graphic designer in, you know, in school. and and so he didn't have a a spot until, like, the very last minute, like, two weeks before it's he was supposed to start. got a lot of no's. and then, uh, a coach that he's working with pushed him to accept this offer where it was more like according to him, it was more more like a coffee shop. and he's like, i'm gonna hate it. it's the worst. he was like, i don't wanna be there. and and then us parents, we had to kind of, like, you know, make this decision. well, do we take that risk, um, that he says no to this one, the only thing he has? or do we also think long term and think, well, he can keep looking and who knows? maybe he'll find something that he's really passionate about and it's gonna be great. it's gonna give him great references. and so, yeah, in the end, he did find, like, his dream position. it's actually on the on the website. i had to laugh at it said, like, we only work with humane projects. i'm like, there you go. and so yeah. but just having holding that uncertainty, right, in this case, as parents, there's no money involved. but holding that uncertainty and and say no to something is is really, really difficult and even more so if it brings in, you know, a certain amount of money. so, yeah.  Speaker 2: add on to the equation in my case that i am a sole widowed parent with a mortgage and a son, and i still sit on. yeah. i think for me, there's two things to keep into account, and this is an exercise that i always do when i feel that fear comes up and takes over because we start making fear based decisions.  Speaker 1: yeah.  Speaker 2: at that point, one, a lot of it has to do with trust the process, trust yourself, you will be fine, which already is a really hard one. but then if i notice, oh, there's a fear coming up, like, will i be able to pay my bills? will i this? i go back every single time to wait. what is the worst thing that can happen? mhmm. and in the end, if you start breaking it down, like, really breaking it down, kinda like, well, that no other project comes up, and then i'm gonna have to look for a job again and leave my business behind. that's not such a bad thing. so it kind of tones the risk down, and it gives me at least that's the trick i keep on doing. that's what i use when i moved countries every single time. it's like, what? wait. what's the worst that can happen?  Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. and then you realize that's the worst thing. it's like there's much worse things than that.  Speaker 2: exactly. yeah. and then you go ahead and you do it anyway. and, um, i have to say five years later, um, i'm very, very happy. i took that decision that day of saying no and and paving my way further on into the purpose  Speaker 1: one. yeah. because we're we're creating with every yes, we're creating an ecosystem for ourselves. right? and the minute you say yes to the wrong thing, well, that's the beginning of your ecosystem. and then more and more and more of these offerings will come your way, and soon enough, you're trapped in that thing. so yeah. so important. okay. so we have the the four quadrants. we have the compass, uh, and then you said, well, that's really the beginning of thinking about partnerships. so it's kind of like an analysis that you do before you step into partnership, um, mode. so once you have this awareness, what do we do next?  Speaker 2: well, there's a a couple of things because for me, um, it's not, oh, yeah. now i'm gonna find the partner and that was that. um, it's a bit slower than that. right. you've got certain phases as well, like, um, values that you need and need to figure out. now what i also say is i know people going into partnerships works best if you're already clear on your very own purpose, call it ikigai, whatever it is. if it's not, what i did learn very fast is kind of, well, it's actually by doing that you'll figure it out. you can go into, i don't know, how many online videos, um, and so on to figure it out, but it's also by doing an actual project that you figure things out. um, so the next one from there is kind of like, what are my principles? um, so there's actually five. there's trust. there's shared values. there's shared impact goals because if you go into a partnership, obviously, you need to make sure and i'm not talking money. i'm not talking just like, oh, profit is in is a goal. no. i'm talking beyond the money. like, what is it that the two of us want to gain out of this? yeah. profustrating, like, the balance of return. and then you mentioned it before the, um, the people that kind of go make a million dollars in three days. yeah. even though i talk about profit, this is not gonna happen in three days. right. so slow growth is is another one.  Speaker 1: yeah. i love that. so, uh, again, trust, shared values, shared impact goals, and shared impact goals, again, are bigger than just the project that we're creating. right? it's like, you know, what is this impacting in the world, the work that we're doing together?  Speaker 2: i think it's really important to know that because i've seen that partnership is yet another word that sometimes for me what it means. and when i speak about partnerships, it's actually all co creation mode. it's not you have your business. i have mine. let's collaborate. that's a collaboration. so all partnerships are collapse, but all collaborations are definitely not partnerships. a partnership for me goes deeper than that. it's kind of like, let's create a business or a project together. doesn't have to be a business, but it can be a project or something. but we co create this. like, we do this together. so hence, well, what are our shared impact goals then? and impact goals, again, for us, but also remembering purpose. what do we wanna reach? what's the impact we wanna create together on everybody else?  Speaker 1: yeah. i love the distinction you make between collabs and partnerships. i think there could probably be also collaborations with shared impact goals, but they're time restricted, where a partnership to me feels like more open  Speaker 2: long term.  Speaker 1: long term. right? yeah.  Speaker 2: yeah. yeah. definitely. yeah. no. definitely. i think in each and every collaboration, even, um, for me, for and then it comes on on the shared values. i very much know what my nonnegotiables are. and my nonnegotiables are so strong that i even do that when i accept a client. mhmm. um, so it's not just towards it's clients, collaborations, and partners. so it's actually everything. um, but, yes, for collaborations, that is also really important. yeah.  Speaker 1: i'm i'm actually collaborating right now with, uh, for my new program, uh, sell how to sell in 2026 and beyond with with this group expert, small group expert, uh, carrie dobson, and we're recording our collaboration prep. and in the last call, we, um, she took me through these questions on the collaboration. and one of them that i think is is good to add here is she asked me what are your concerns about this collaboration? right? what are you worried about for us working together? um, and i think it's so important to talk about that and, you know yeah. with vulnerability, speak about our fears. do they have to do with the ego? do they have to do with being worried about who knows what? but address that. and and and then it feels like, oh, we talk it's kinda like what's the worst thing that could happen. right? it's like, oh, here are the concerns. we talked about them, and now we can build, uh, on that.  Speaker 2: i think as well, um, what i've noticed as well is at times and i think the same thing happens with concerns. you think you know. you think before going into a partnership or a collab, you think you know what your nonnegotiable is and what your main concerns are until you go into partnerships. the only way to learn or collabs is do that.  Speaker 1: right.  Speaker 2: because you'll notice, like, oh, i thought this was actually my nonnegotiable, but this bugs me more or this upsets me more or this so you get to know a lot about yourself as well as a business owner or an entrepreneur or even a professional in general when you start collaborating.  Speaker 1: yeah. if anything, you grow yourself. maybe you won't grow your business with this one, but you grow yourself. and then you can apply next time. yeah.  Speaker 2: it's a really important one as well to allow yourself to make mistakes. it's fine from every single partnership. i've i've had partnerships that went totally wrong. i learned a lot from them. it was brilliant.  Speaker 1: yeah.  Speaker 2: very grateful for that thing going wrong. yeah. but that is  Speaker 1: i mean, we started out with a partnership and and or collab and and that specific small project, well, it didn't go so well. but where he's still here. you know,  Speaker 2: we're still collaborating. so yeah. exactly.  Speaker 1: so so what are some ways that people can test, um, partnerships? so maybe it is those collabs. is that the step the first step?  Speaker 2: yes. yeah. um, there's one recommendation i always do, um, and i get that it depends a little bit on on the type of business you have or, uh, the project you're working on. but if there's one recommend that's my way of testing it out a lot is co create a small event, however small it is. a webinar, uh, an online talk, a get together, it doesn't matter. just yeah. because when you set up an event, however small it is, actually, a lot of things are needed. like, what are the goals of this event? how are we going to promote this? um, who are we talking to? what's our audience? what what are we gonna get out of this, how are we gonna set up, what are the tools we're gonna use. um, all of that teaches you so much about one another. because when you set up an event, it's kind of like, oh, yeah. you're the techie one. i'm not. oh, you wanna have that audience? no. i was actually thinking of another audience, and that's where the difference has come up most definitely. like, for me, that's my go to to see, is this gonna work? let's test. and i think in a lot of businesses or or even for solopreneurs, it's actually very feasible to do that. everybody can do a webinar or something. and collaborating on that is an interesting exercise yeah. as a small test.  Speaker 1: and i i think you're right when you said, you know, when you asked people where they're at in the when you hosted that workshop in the community, they already knew who they are. yes. so that is very helpful to go into partnership. because if you are still at the stage where well, first of all, you haven't done any inner work, but you're also very new in your business. there's a lot of doubt. right? and so that's why i see most people go, oh, don't wanna do any collaborations. i'm not even sure what i can bring to this collaboration. so in a way, it's like, well, that's that's the challenge, though. it's like work on that because you will grow as as you are having these collaborations.  Speaker 2: when it comes to because we crossed over right into the alignment phase with the test, um, because, actually, there's stages to creating a partnership. um, so one, there's the principles you kind of need to think about in advance, but then for me, a lot of networking nowadays has a negative connotation. once again, i'm like, let's make it a positive one then. um, i'm not changing the words. i'll give it another connotation. in my case, yes, we put slow networking in front of it. um, the first step is you're solo. it's just you. start thinking about you, what do you want, those principles. and then you go into networking. now networking for me is very different than connecting. the word connection and connecting nowadays as well. hey. wanna connect with me? hey. wanna connect with me? mhmm.  Speaker 1: and then nothing happens. i made  Speaker 2: yeah. exactly. it's like, yeah. sure. let's be in touch because networking is just a first contact. it's, hi. this is me, and this is you. and then you can decide, do i go into creating a connection with that person where you start to get to know each other a bit more? you start nurturing the contact. that's when you start connecting. and then once you've connected enough, that's when i think you can well, that's when you can go into maybe we should cocreate something small. let's see. and that's the alignment phase. you need that before going into a full blown old partnership to check, like, is this right for us yeah. for the both. and then you step into a partnership, actually.  Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. yeah. that's good. you know, we we we're calling this episode, how can purposeful partnerships turn your passion into profit. so so far, we've talked a lot about purpose and partnership. let's talk about profit. so how where does the money come in? and, yes, we agree. okay. it's slow. um, but we do have to have this money conversation eventually. so when do we when do we have the do we start with the money conversation? and then, yeah, how can we turn our passion into profit?  Speaker 2: so for me, um, the partnerships is a vehicle to get to the profit for different reasons. lots of us are indeed solopreneurs or small businesses. um, so even more, in the purpose realm, lots of us feel alone. that's why there's so many communities. that's why your community exists. that's why mine exists. so there are so through a partnership, it has several advantages. it's not one plus one is two. it's one plus one is three. and that comes to the impact you're creating. that comes to the profit you're creating because you put your experience together. you put your audience together. you put so many things together that that then automatically makes you stronger. you strengthen one another. um, the money conversation obviously needs to be had because this is another thing people misunderstand lots of times. not every partnership is a fifty fifty when it comes to money. you can go into partnerships saying, this is a thirty seventy. whatever. it needs to feel right for you. that's the most important thing. and what i've seen, funnily enough, is also that i recommend very much partnering with people that might be passionate about totally different things work wise, like task wise than i am that you're complementary. so i love stuff marketing related. i hate the writing up reports type of things. and i co created a brand with somebody that doesn't really like the marketing side of things. but, yeah, more excited about the paperwork. that was a brilliant partnership because that was the one thing that i maybe couldn't always give to my clients, and he had that the other way around. so it's kind of like, let's combine this because we have shared impact, all shared values, and so on, and we complement one another. and that automatically led to a lot more profit because we were capable of doing certain projects together and have more reach, um, which automatically translates into. and i very much realized if i should have done this by myself, then either i need to pay somebody to kind of do this work for me, but i can't yet. so it's kind of like this it's just me. how do i tackle all this? so it strengthens you a lot, and and that's where the profit lies. i feel a lot of solopreneurs are just trying to do it all by themselves even though they're part of a community and so on. and it's kind of like, well, why don't you, like, create a partnership somehow? yeah. besides what you keep doing, which is perfectly fine. i mean, you can keep doing your own project, but it'll it'll really get you into into more profit.  Speaker 1: more profit. and and and maybe we can also say that profit is not always money. profit is also more time to be human, more joy because you're working with someone who is very aligned. um, what else? more fun. so, yeah, profit can take many, many different versions.  Speaker 2: more energy as well. i said, for me, it it's it's brilliant that there is somebody that absolutely loves reading these really, to me, boring reports and outlines that our clients sometimes ask, and and they're like, this is fun. and i'm like, yay.  Speaker 1: yeah. and and vice versa, they're like, oh, i can't understand how she thinks this other thing is fun. but exactly. exactly. that's why we're  Speaker 2: all different. so for me, that's priceless  Speaker 1: yeah. yeah.  Speaker 2: to be fair. because it's so and i think it's an important thing that people have to see in partnerships as well. it's it's yeah. what do you like doing that i might not like as much and the other way around? and is that compliment can we use that together? yeah. and it's amazing. goes beyond money, obviously. but for me, profit is also something i think this came about as well because i noticed so many solopreneurs in the purpose realm struggling with money or struggling with profit. one, i still feel due to limiting beliefs and the negative connotation money has in society as in the billionaires of this world are all bad people, and they're creating the wrong impact and so on. and i even myself heard myself saying lots of times in the beginning, like, just need to pay my bills and i'm fine and it's all good and, like, kind of down i don't know how to say that in english.  Speaker 1: yeah. play small. right? exactly. exactly. yeah.  Speaker 2: and then i came to the realization that that is not what i want. that, um, i feel the more money and more profit, and i'm just talking money wise. it's good to have all those add ons, obviously. the more impact i'll be able to create because that'll make it possible for me to hire people aligned with my values as well to maybe even invest in companies that are doing a really good job or help out solopreneurs. so there's so many things added to that. but for me, it's kind of like, let's talk about profit because it is important. we need to make profit. it's fine to make profit. it's fine even to make good money. it's fine.  Speaker 1: yeah. we need more good people make good money. right? exactly. the good people will always bring back the money to where we need it.  Speaker 2: i'm gonna use that, sarah. yeah. we need more money. good people making good money. yeah. i love that. yeah.  Speaker 1: i think that's a a nice quote to to wrap up here, but, um, i'm glad we we yeah. we need to talk about the money. so that that is just and i think i think it's part of that vulnerable conversation also at the beginning of a partnership, you know?  Speaker 2: yes.  Speaker 1: it's like, let's have this money conversation.  Speaker 2: so exactly.  Speaker 1: yeah. maybe as a as a final question, if someone, you know, has never worked either on a collab or a partnership, like, what's a what's an easy first step for them to to do?  Speaker 2: i think the the first one is if you're still remembering the phases. right? so low networking connection and so on. a lot of people are like, oh, so i need to get myself into the right room as a first step. yes and no because there's one before. take up your phone or your linkedin or whatever it is and see who's already there within your everybody has a network. don't tell me you don't have a network. everybody has a network, but you might feel that it's not the right network. but maybe there's someone in there that you can actually go to and talk and not as much as in to get in the networking or connection stage. if it's somebody that you feel might be aligned with you, then, yes, start connecting with them. start nurturing that connection. but if it's not, they might be connected. and i think a lot of people are scared to ask for introductions.  Speaker 1: yeah.  Speaker 2: and for me, a really important step is ask for an introduction. if somebody is already there that you know or you look up to and isn't that purpose realm and ask for an intro. if you see i do that all the time. if i see somebody's connected and i'm like, well, i i would love to connect with that person or get to know that person. and i ask. i'm like, could you possibly introduce me? yeah. and what's the worst can happen? they say no. yeah. that's fine. if that's not possible, then get yourself into the right room. and in my case, i didn't find the right room, so i basically created the right room yeah. which is also a possibility. yeah. you're like, well, the right room does not exist, and i'll just create it. and i started with the slow networking of it because for me, that was kind of like, let's start like this.  Speaker 1: yeah. nobody else is talking about that. so let me let me do it myself. yeah. yeah. i think it's it's it's so it's so key to, um, also, like you mentioned, connect with someone, but we can also just see, for example, what events are they attending. and and then, you know, kinda get into those events. and and then you're like, all of a sudden you notice, oh, there's many more of my people, and i'm not alone. yeah.  Speaker 2: it is exactly because, um, if you go on linkedin in the beginning, obviously, i came from the corporate world. so my linkedin was filled with maybe not my crowd or not exactly. and, funnily enough, the events that came up  Speaker 1: yeah. not the corporate team. right.  Speaker 2: then i started looking for them, and now it's a constant show up of things i could now it's kind of like, no. stop.  Speaker 1: there's too many. i can't attend them all. yeah.  Speaker 2: and, um, but that's that's how you do it.  Speaker 1: that's where  Speaker 2: where you start. and then even if it is because i i understand that there's a lot of introvert people as well for anybody listening. like, oh, i don't wanna then just join a webinar. mhmm. but going through the people that are there, and then afterwards connect with them on linkedin via message like, hey. i saw you in this webinar. would love to kind of stay in touch on here and start the conversation in writing.  Speaker 1: yeah. it's  Speaker 2: not always about showing up in person and having to speak face to face. there are other ways as well.  Speaker 1: yep. great. great ways to start collaborating more. i think it's really yeah. it's it's where we're heading. i can see that it's, you know, when you started, it was kinda like this new thing, but now you hear a lot more people talking about it, which is great, which is great. and and i think it goes together with knowing who you are because then you show up in partnership with your boundaries, with your, you know, with your clear expectations. and and that makes a really good partnership.  Speaker 2: exactly.  Speaker 1: yeah. great. uh, that was awesome. kim, please do share where people can find you. tell us about your community as well.  Speaker 2: um, i just launched and haven't really sent it to anybody, but i finally created a little small website, um, just with my name, kimdekoster.com. because everything about me is on there. like, all of my brands, the projects i'm involved in, i'm like, i need this little thing where everybody so that's one. great. and i think all the info is is  Speaker 1: is on  Speaker 2: that site. yeah. okay. is on that website, basically.  Speaker 1: well, maybe what you can do is send me, you know, the compass, if you can send me that, and i'll include that in the show notes. so in case people are like, i don't know what she's talking about, they can go and look  Speaker 2: it up. i will. yeah. i'll i'll take out that page because, um, by now, there's a playbook, obviously, as well. um, and so it comes with a little like, you can do the exercise by yourself. um, i'll take out that page and and send it over to her so people have that compass.  Speaker 1: yeah. that's great. and if they if they can download it on your website, well, that, you know, if you make that available, then let me know and i'll link to that as well.  Speaker 2: i will. perfect.  Speaker 1: thanks so much for being a guest, kim.  Speaker 2: thank you for having me, ovelyn. it was fun. thank you.  Speaker 1: thank you. 

In this episode I sit down with Kim De Coster to explore how purposeful partnerships can help you turn passion into profit—without losing sight of meaning. We talk about Kim's compass of passion, purpose, and profit, and how to navigate its four quadrants: from the Profit Trap that keeps us stuck, to the Power quadrant where passion meets impact. Together, we dive into finding your right crowd, knowing your values and non-negotiables, and the difference between a simple collaboration and a true partnership. You'll also hear how to test partnerships safely, have the money and vulnerability conversations that matter, and why profit is about more than money—it's about joy, energy, and freedom. This conversation will inspire you to create aligned, impactful partnerships that strengthen both your business and the change you want to see in the world. In this episode we discussed: The balance of passion, purpose, and profit – the trifecta for meaningful work Kim's compass with four quadrants: Pitfall, Profit Trap, Progress, and Power Why the Profit Trap feels safe but keeps you stuck, and how to move out of it The importance of being in the right crowd and finding your people The difference between collaborations and partnerships Knowing your values, principles, and non-negotiables before stepping into partnership How to test partnerships with small experiments (like co-hosting an event) The role of vulnerable conversations around money, concerns, and expectations Why profit isn't just money—it's also joy, energy, time, and freedom The reminder that good people making good money creates more positive impact Practical first steps: start with your existing network, ask for introductions, or join/create the right "room" -- Speaker 0: hey, kim. it's good to hang out with you and talk about Speaker 1: passion, profit, and partnership. Speaker 2: hello. it's great to be here. thank you for the invite. it's always a pleasure. Speaker 1: yeah. um, we're here because you're part of the humane marketing circle community. and during our last expo, you proposed a great workshop, which i missed, but luckily there was a replay. so i got to see that, um, around this topic of passion, purpose, and profit. right? it's kinda like this trifecta, those three things that, uh, go together. and, um, i yeah. i just thought it was such a great topic and it fits my seventh p of the human in marketing mandala, which is partnership. and so i thought it'd be really great to talk about it here on the, on the podcast. to people will be listening. and so you just have to kind of explain the four different components of this compass. Speaker 2: um, so for me, first of all, the compass is kind of before you start going into partnerships and so on and so on. i think the first very step is where am i currently at? and that's what the compass is for, to kind of see where do i start from. so you have, um, two things we'd be measuring somehow, which is on the one hand, you have passion on the lower end, and then you have purpose. and, obviously, you can work low on passion, or you can work high on passion. and then the same thing for purpose. low on purpose or high on purpose. before i explain, like, the four quadrants we've made, i do wanna make it clear what i mean with purpose and passion. so purpose for me because you hear the word a lot and also passion, they're a bit overused probably. but, um, purpose for me is not just what is my purpose, it's a positive impacts purpose on planet and society, so on planet and people. right. and because i'm all about sustainability. so that for me is, are you working alone? does it have not really an impact, a positive impact on planet or society, on humanity, or does it really have a high impact? so that's where the purpose lies. and then passion, we can all be passionate about stuff and let's be honest, everybody that has a business or has a job, there's always things even if you're passionate about what you do, there's always things you like more and you like less in every single job. but let's say that, like, 85% of your time, you're working on something that you really, really like almost to that effect that it doesn't feel like you're working because you enjoy it so much. Speaker 1: that's yeah. Speaker 2: the feeling that's passion for me. Speaker 1: yeah. so Speaker 2: there's four quadrants. one is low on passion, low on purpose, which is i'm not really doing what i'm enjoying, and it does not even create a positive impact. um, that one is called, um, the pitfall. and then you have the right next to it, which is you're still low on purpose, but you're really high on passion. you love what you do, but it doesn't have that positive impact on the rest of the world, let's say, like that. Speaker 1: so it's kind of missing also that meaning for you. right? like, it doesn't give you meaning. mhmm. Speaker 2: so you do like doing a lot of people say how is that possible, but i can give an example later on of how that is exactly possible because i've been through that. and that for me, and i've seen it in more people, is an absolute profit trap because it makes you money. it pays the bills, and you actually like doing it. and then what i hear about some, uh, from some entrepreneurs are kind of like, how do i move from here to working with impact? because i seem to be stuck. well, yes. and if you go there, you'll get stuck for quite some time. Speaker 1: mhmm. Speaker 2: and when there's the top two quadrants to say it like that, there's the progress one, which is actually the one you wanna be in to get to the power one, which is the one i love what i do, and i'm creating a really good impact on planets and people. the progress one for me is not exactly entirely excited by the actual job or tasks that i'm doing, but it does pay my bills, and it does create an impact at the same time. now there's a reason why i'm saying that the progress quadrant is the one you wanna be in to move on to the the power one. um, on power as well, i know it's a word with a really negative connotation. and in general, this is a a side mark. i use a lot of words, even prophets. like, in our realm, they're not used a lot. and for me, i decided to use them specifically because i want people to give them another meaning. like, they are what they mean to you, and i decided to give them a positive meaning for me. so being in it's all about empowering. if you're in your power, creating a lot of impact, making money, uh, working on your passion, then that is a perfect quadrant to be in. Speaker 1: it's also why why we're talking about this and we know each other because as you might remember, passion is my first p, and then personal power is my second p. but, yes, i hear you. you know, people think, oh, personal power, is that, like, too strong? is that over no. you have to stand in your in your personal power, and that's what makes you unique. and and for you, uh, it is that powerful position where you know who you are that you can go into trustworthy relationships and partnerships as well. Speaker 2: exactly. yeah. exactly. Speaker 1: love that. yeah. yeah. okay. so those are the four quadrants. um, what came up during the, uh, the workshop? where did you see that most people were at when you asked them? Speaker 2: to be fair, a lot of people were in the power quadrant already, but that is because of the audience, obviously. um, as i said, this was during the the humane, um, export that we did together. so, obviously, there's people in there that are already more aligned, um, that already are really clear on their purpose. they've worked through this and so on. so for me, i think they were mainly there to kind of figure out, oh, wait. the partnership thing in whole of this, what where does that take me? now there was a couple of people, i think, that were, um, leaning more towards the progress one, and then maybe one person that was a little bit in doubt as in, am i stuck in a profit trap? kind of. so but i said, it depends on the audience you have, and it was really nice to hear that a lot of them were already in that power quadrant, actually. Speaker 1: yeah. it's really good to analyze that for yourself to think about, uh, whether you're in the wrong crowd, because that's something that comes up quite often in the marketing. like, we're human program where people are like, yeah. but whenever i look around, i'm not seeing that kind of way of showing up in the world. and and often it's because, yeah, they are in the wrong crowd. and so it feels very it feels lonely to be in the wrong crowd. right? if you're the only one who cares and everybody else is talking about how to make a million dollars in three days, then then you feel very lonely when you think, yeah, but is that really what i want? um, and so i think i think it's this journey of a creating this awareness and knowing, okay, i might be in the wrong crowd. how do i work my way towards a different different audience? and and i'm actually doing that right now a little bit as well, um, with the inner development goals. i, i, i really saw that these were my people. uh, and so i started and this has been three years in the making. i started, you know, being there, connecting. and now last year, i created a new community with someone else. but it's like this slow, steady, this is where i want to be and these are my people and then working towards that, i think. yes. yeah. that's why it resonated so much with me to to see, oh, yeah. this is this is the journey, right, through these quadrants. yeah. Speaker 2: it is. that's why i say the profit trap is where you get stuck because you love what you do, but you're not in the right room. yeah. um, so you won't it's really hard to move from that one to the progress one. it's actually easier to go from the pitfall one, which is low passion and and low in purpose, um, to progress. Speaker 1: because you hate it. you're like, uh, let me get out of here. right? yeah. Speaker 2: one. and secondly, if you accept things that you might not be overly excited about work wise or project wise, it will at least get you in the room with the right people. because if it's a higher on purpose, then you know, like, okay. this is just a step. i've been through that. it's kind of like i need to get here to then move on to power. yeah. because you're more motivated as well. like, okay. this is not what i wanna be doing, but at least i'm surrounded, and i get to know more and more people that are my crowd. Speaker 1: yeah. in the in that workshop, you also shared an example that sometimes you just need to accept a a job for the money. yes. but then you made some distinction, like, how do you do that so that you don't get stuck in that trap there? Speaker 2: the i i can give actually because, obviously, everything this was created from my very own experience that i noticed, like, okay. i've been through this, so this is, um, my advice. the profit trap, for instance, i got i love software. i love everything that has to do with tech. um, i i love implementing it. i love figuring it out. so i had an offer when i just started my business, and this was someone who knew that i really liked that and was really good at that. and they said, don't you wanna come and do a consultancy for us for, like, a year more or less, and we'll give us a quote and so on. and it's to implement a crm, but it was a business that value wise and purpose wise was not aligned with my values nor but still, i found myself thinking, well, this is twelve months of this much money coming in every month. i think it was because this has been five to six years ago. in between 1,500 and 2,000, but that a month, it's kind of like, oh, yeah. and i think a lot of people will reason then. i'll take that and on the side, and i'm like, no. that's not what i started my business. i ended up sending them the quote, and then a week later, contacting them again saying, i'm sorry. i thought about this. it's not the right time currently for me to collaborate. yeah. because i know you need to think long term. you need to think long term. don't do this. you'll get stuck, and then other references will come up and recommendations and so on, and and you'll go where you don't wanna be. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. Speaker 2: that is an example of low purpose, high passion. so it is possible. Speaker 1: yeah. i'll just i just have to share another example of of my son. uh, just recently, he needed to look for an internship, and he's a a graphic designer in, you know, in school. and and so he didn't have a a spot until, like, the very last minute, like, two weeks before it's he was supposed to start. got a lot of no's. and then, uh, a coach that he's working with pushed him to accept this offer where it was more like according to him, it was more more like a coffee shop. and he's like, i'm gonna hate it. it's the worst. he was like, i don't wanna be there. and and then us parents, we had to kind of, like, you know, make this decision. well, do we take that risk, um, that he says no to this one, the only thing he has? or do we also think long term and think, well, he can keep looking and who knows? maybe he'll find something that he's really passionate about and it's gonna be great. it's gonna give him great references. and so, yeah, in the end, he did find, like, his dream position. it's actually on the on the website. i had to laugh at it said, like, we only work with humane projects. i'm like, there you go. and so yeah. but just having holding that uncertainty, right, in this case, as parents, there's no money involved. but holding that uncertainty and and say no to something is is really, really difficult and even more so if it brings in, you know, a certain amount of money. so, yeah. Speaker 2: add on to the equation in my case that i am a sole widowed parent with a mortgage and a son, and i still sit on. yeah. i think for me, there's two things to keep into account, and this is an exercise that i always do when i feel that fear comes up and takes over because we start making fear based decisions. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 2: at that point, one, a lot of it has to do with trust the process, trust yourself, you will be fine, which already is a really hard one. but then if i notice, oh, there's a fear coming up, like, will i be able to pay my bills? will i this? i go back every single time to wait. what is the worst thing that can happen? mhmm. and in the end, if you start breaking it down, like, really breaking it down, kinda like, well, that no other project comes up, and then i'm gonna have to look for a job again and leave my business behind. that's not such a bad thing. so it kind of tones the risk down, and it gives me at least that's the trick i keep on doing. that's what i use when i moved countries every single time. it's like, what? wait. what's the worst that can happen? Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. and then you realize that's the worst thing. it's like there's much worse things than that. Speaker 2: exactly. yeah. and then you go ahead and you do it anyway. and, um, i have to say five years later, um, i'm very, very happy. i took that decision that day of saying no and and paving my way further on into the purpose Speaker 1: one. yeah. because we're we're creating with every yes, we're creating an ecosystem for ourselves. right? and the minute you say yes to the wrong thing, well, that's the beginning of your ecosystem. and then more and more and more of these offerings will come your way, and soon enough, you're trapped in that thing. so yeah. so important. okay. so we have the the four quadrants. we have the compass, uh, and then you said, well, that's really the beginning of thinking about partnerships. so it's kind of like an analysis that you do before you step into partnership, um, mode. so once you have this awareness, what do we do next? Speaker 2: well, there's a a couple of things because for me, um, it's not, oh, yeah. now i'm gonna find the partner and that was that. um, it's a bit slower than that. right. you've got certain phases as well, like, um, values that you need and need to figure out. now what i also say is i know people going into partnerships works best if you're already clear on your very own purpose, call it ikigai, whatever it is. if it's not, what i did learn very fast is kind of, well, it's actually by doing that you'll figure it out. you can go into, i don't know, how many online videos, um, and so on to figure it out, but it's also by doing an actual project that you figure things out. um, so the next one from there is kind of like, what are my principles? um, so there's actually five. there's trust. there's shared values. there's shared impact goals because if you go into a partnership, obviously, you need to make sure and i'm not talking money. i'm not talking just like, oh, profit is in is a goal. no. i'm talking beyond the money. like, what is it that the two of us want to gain out of this? yeah. profustrating, like, the balance of return. and then you mentioned it before the, um, the people that kind of go make a million dollars in three days. yeah. even though i talk about profit, this is not gonna happen in three days. right. so slow growth is is another one. Speaker 1: yeah. i love that. so, uh, again, trust, shared values, shared impact goals, and shared impact goals, again, are bigger than just the project that we're creating. right? it's like, you know, what is this impacting in the world, the work that we're doing together? Speaker 2: i think it's really important to know that because i've seen that partnership is yet another word that sometimes for me what it means. and when i speak about partnerships, it's actually all co creation mode. it's not you have your business. i have mine. let's collaborate. that's a collaboration. so all partnerships are collapse, but all collaborations are definitely not partnerships. a partnership for me goes deeper than that. it's kind of like, let's create a business or a project together. doesn't have to be a business, but it can be a project or something. but we co create this. like, we do this together. so hence, well, what are our shared impact goals then? and impact goals, again, for us, but also remembering purpose. what do we wanna reach? what's the impact we wanna create together on everybody else? Speaker 1: yeah. i love the distinction you make between collabs and partnerships. i think there could probably be also collaborations with shared impact goals, but they're time restricted, where a partnership to me feels like more open Speaker 2: long term. Speaker 1: long term. right? yeah. Speaker 2: yeah. yeah. definitely. yeah. no. definitely. i think in each and every collaboration, even, um, for me, for and then it comes on on the shared values. i very much know what my nonnegotiables are. and my nonnegotiables are so strong that i even do that when i accept a client. mhmm. um, so it's not just towards it's clients, collaborations, and partners. so it's actually everything. um, but, yes, for collaborations, that is also really important. yeah. Speaker 1: i'm i'm actually collaborating right now with, uh, for my new program, uh, sell how to sell in 2026 and beyond with with this group expert, small group expert, uh, carrie dobson, and we're recording our collaboration prep. and in the last call, we, um, she took me through these questions on the collaboration. and one of them that i think is is good to add here is she asked me what are your concerns about this collaboration? right? what are you worried about for us working together? um, and i think it's so important to talk about that and, you know yeah. with vulnerability, speak about our fears. do they have to do with the ego? do they have to do with being worried about who knows what? but address that. and and and then it feels like, oh, we talk it's kinda like what's the worst thing that could happen. right? it's like, oh, here are the concerns. we talked about them, and now we can build, uh, on that. Speaker 2: i think as well, um, what i've noticed as well is at times and i think the same thing happens with concerns. you think you know. you think before going into a partnership or a collab, you think you know what your nonnegotiable is and what your main concerns are until you go into partnerships. the only way to learn or collabs is do that. Speaker 1: right. Speaker 2: because you'll notice, like, oh, i thought this was actually my nonnegotiable, but this bugs me more or this upsets me more or this so you get to know a lot about yourself as well as a business owner or an entrepreneur or even a professional in general when you start collaborating. Speaker 1: yeah. if anything, you grow yourself. maybe you won't grow your business with this one, but you grow yourself. and then you can apply next time. yeah. Speaker 2: it's a really important one as well to allow yourself to make mistakes. it's fine from every single partnership. i've i've had partnerships that went totally wrong. i learned a lot from them. it was brilliant. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 2: very grateful for that thing going wrong. yeah. but that is Speaker 1: i mean, we started out with a partnership and and or collab and and that specific small project, well, it didn't go so well. but where he's still here. you know, Speaker 2: we're still collaborating. so yeah. exactly. Speaker 1: so so what are some ways that people can test, um, partnerships? so maybe it is those collabs. is that the step the first step? Speaker 2: yes. yeah. um, there's one recommendation i always do, um, and i get that it depends a little bit on on the type of business you have or, uh, the project you're working on. but if there's one recommend that's my way of testing it out a lot is co create a small event, however small it is. a webinar, uh, an online talk, a get together, it doesn't matter. just yeah. because when you set up an event, however small it is, actually, a lot of things are needed. like, what are the goals of this event? how are we going to promote this? um, who are we talking to? what's our audience? what what are we gonna get out of this, how are we gonna set up, what are the tools we're gonna use. um, all of that teaches you so much about one another. because when you set up an event, it's kind of like, oh, yeah. you're the techie one. i'm not. oh, you wanna have that audience? no. i was actually thinking of another audience, and that's where the difference has come up most definitely. like, for me, that's my go to to see, is this gonna work? let's test. and i think in a lot of businesses or or even for solopreneurs, it's actually very feasible to do that. everybody can do a webinar or something. and collaborating on that is an interesting exercise yeah. as a small test. Speaker 1: and i i think you're right when you said, you know, when you asked people where they're at in the when you hosted that workshop in the community, they already knew who they are. yes. so that is very helpful to go into partnership. because if you are still at the stage where well, first of all, you haven't done any inner work, but you're also very new in your business. there's a lot of doubt. right? and so that's why i see most people go, oh, don't wanna do any collaborations. i'm not even sure what i can bring to this collaboration. so in a way, it's like, well, that's that's the challenge, though. it's like work on that because you will grow as as you are having these collaborations. Speaker 2: when it comes to because we crossed over right into the alignment phase with the test, um, because, actually, there's stages to creating a partnership. um, so one, there's the principles you kind of need to think about in advance, but then for me, a lot of networking nowadays has a negative connotation. once again, i'm like, let's make it a positive one then. um, i'm not changing the words. i'll give it another connotation. in my case, yes, we put slow networking in front of it. um, the first step is you're solo. it's just you. start thinking about you, what do you want, those principles. and then you go into networking. now networking for me is very different than connecting. the word connection and connecting nowadays as well. hey. wanna connect with me? hey. wanna connect with me? mhmm. Speaker 1: and then nothing happens. i made Speaker 2: yeah. exactly. it's like, yeah. sure. let's be in touch because networking is just a first contact. it's, hi. this is me, and this is you. and then you can decide, do i go into creating a connection with that person where you start to get to know each other a bit more? you start nurturing the contact. that's when you start connecting. and then once you've connected enough, that's when i think you can well, that's when you can go into maybe we should cocreate something small. let's see. and that's the alignment phase. you need that before going into a full blown old partnership to check, like, is this right for us yeah. for the both. and then you step into a partnership, actually. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. yeah. that's good. you know, we we we're calling this episode, how can purposeful partnerships turn your passion into profit. so so far, we've talked a lot about purpose and partnership. let's talk about profit. so how where does the money come in? and, yes, we agree. okay. it's slow. um, but we do have to have this money conversation eventually. so when do we when do we have the do we start with the money conversation? and then, yeah, how can we turn our passion into profit? Speaker 2: so for me, um, the partnerships is a vehicle to get to the profit for different reasons. lots of us are indeed solopreneurs or small businesses. um, so even more, in the purpose realm, lots of us feel alone. that's why there's so many communities. that's why your community exists. that's why mine exists. so there are so through a partnership, it has several advantages. it's not one plus one is two. it's one plus one is three. and that comes to the impact you're creating. that comes to the profit you're creating because you put your experience together. you put your audience together. you put so many things together that that then automatically makes you stronger. you strengthen one another. um, the money conversation obviously needs to be had because this is another thing people misunderstand lots of times. not every partnership is a fifty fifty when it comes to money. you can go into partnerships saying, this is a thirty seventy. whatever. it needs to feel right for you. that's the most important thing. and what i've seen, funnily enough, is also that i recommend very much partnering with people that might be passionate about totally different things work wise, like task wise than i am that you're complementary. so i love stuff marketing related. i hate the writing up reports type of things. and i co created a brand with somebody that doesn't really like the marketing side of things. but, yeah, more excited about the paperwork. that was a brilliant partnership because that was the one thing that i maybe couldn't always give to my clients, and he had that the other way around. so it's kind of like, let's combine this because we have shared impact, all shared values, and so on, and we complement one another. and that automatically led to a lot more profit because we were capable of doing certain projects together and have more reach, um, which automatically translates into. and i very much realized if i should have done this by myself, then either i need to pay somebody to kind of do this work for me, but i can't yet. so it's kind of like this it's just me. how do i tackle all this? so it strengthens you a lot, and and that's where the profit lies. i feel a lot of solopreneurs are just trying to do it all by themselves even though they're part of a community and so on. and it's kind of like, well, why don't you, like, create a partnership somehow? yeah. besides what you keep doing, which is perfectly fine. i mean, you can keep doing your own project, but it'll it'll really get you into into more profit. Speaker 1: more profit. and and and maybe we can also say that profit is not always money. profit is also more time to be human, more joy because you're working with someone who is very aligned. um, what else? more fun. so, yeah, profit can take many, many different versions. Speaker 2: more energy as well. i said, for me, it it's it's brilliant that there is somebody that absolutely loves reading these really, to me, boring reports and outlines that our clients sometimes ask, and and they're like, this is fun. and i'm like, yay. Speaker 1: yeah. and and vice versa, they're like, oh, i can't understand how she thinks this other thing is fun. but exactly. exactly. that's why we're Speaker 2: all different. so for me, that's priceless Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. Speaker 2: to be fair. because it's so and i think it's an important thing that people have to see in partnerships as well. it's it's yeah. what do you like doing that i might not like as much and the other way around? and is that compliment can we use that together? yeah. and it's amazing. goes beyond money, obviously. but for me, profit is also something i think this came about as well because i noticed so many solopreneurs in the purpose realm struggling with money or struggling with profit. one, i still feel due to limiting beliefs and the negative connotation money has in society as in the billionaires of this world are all bad people, and they're creating the wrong impact and so on. and i even myself heard myself saying lots of times in the beginning, like, just need to pay my bills and i'm fine and it's all good and, like, kind of down i don't know how to say that in english. Speaker 1: yeah. play small. right? exactly. exactly. yeah. Speaker 2: and then i came to the realization that that is not what i want. that, um, i feel the more money and more profit, and i'm just talking money wise. it's good to have all those add ons, obviously. the more impact i'll be able to create because that'll make it possible for me to hire people aligned with my values as well to maybe even invest in companies that are doing a really good job or help out solopreneurs. so there's so many things added to that. but for me, it's kind of like, let's talk about profit because it is important. we need to make profit. it's fine to make profit. it's fine even to make good money. it's fine. Speaker 1: yeah. we need more good people make good money. right? exactly. the good people will always bring back the money to where we need it. Speaker 2: i'm gonna use that, sarah. yeah. we need more money. good people making good money. yeah. i love that. yeah. Speaker 1: i think that's a a nice quote to to wrap up here, but, um, i'm glad we we yeah. we need to talk about the money. so that that is just and i think i think it's part of that vulnerable conversation also at the beginning of a partnership, you know? Speaker 2: yes. Speaker 1: it's like, let's have this money conversation. Speaker 2: so exactly. Speaker 1: yeah. maybe as a as a final question, if someone, you know, has never worked either on a collab or a partnership, like, what's a what's an easy first step for them to to do? Speaker 2: i think the the first one is if you're still remembering the phases. right? so low networking connection and so on. a lot of people are like, oh, so i need to get myself into the right room as a first step. yes and no because there's one before. take up your phone or your linkedin or whatever it is and see who's already there within your everybody has a network. don't tell me you don't have a network. everybody has a network, but you might feel that it's not the right network. but maybe there's someone in there that you can actually go to and talk and not as much as in to get in the networking or connection stage. if it's somebody that you feel might be aligned with you, then, yes, start connecting with them. start nurturing that connection. but if it's not, they might be connected. and i think a lot of people are scared to ask for introductions. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 2: and for me, a really important step is ask for an introduction. if somebody is already there that you know or you look up to and isn't that purpose realm and ask for an intro. if you see i do that all the time. if i see somebody's connected and i'm like, well, i i would love to connect with that person or get to know that person. and i ask. i'm like, could you possibly introduce me? yeah. and what's the worst can happen? they say no. yeah. that's fine. if that's not possible, then get yourself into the right room. and in my case, i didn't find the right room, so i basically created the right room yeah. which is also a possibility. yeah. you're like, well, the right room does not exist, and i'll just create it. and i started with the slow networking of it because for me, that was kind of like, let's start like this. Speaker 1: yeah. nobody else is talking about that. so let me let me do it myself. yeah. yeah. i think it's it's it's so it's so key to, um, also, like you mentioned, connect with someone, but we can also just see, for example, what events are they attending. and and then, you know, kinda get into those events. and and then you're like, all of a sudden you notice, oh, there's many more of my people, and i'm not alone. yeah. Speaker 2: it is exactly because, um, if you go on linkedin in the beginning, obviously, i came from the corporate world. so my linkedin was filled with maybe not my crowd or not exactly. and, funnily enough, the events that came up Speaker 1: yeah. not the corporate team. right. Speaker 2: then i started looking for them, and now it's a constant show up of things i could now it's kind of like, no. stop. Speaker 1: there's too many. i can't attend them all. yeah. Speaker 2: and, um, but that's that's how you do it. Speaker 1: that's where Speaker 2: where you start. and then even if it is because i i understand that there's a lot of introvert people as well for anybody listening. like, oh, i don't wanna then just join a webinar. mhmm. but going through the people that are there, and then afterwards connect with them on linkedin via message like, hey. i saw you in this webinar. would love to kind of stay in touch on here and start the conversation in writing. Speaker 1: yeah. it's Speaker 2: not always about showing up in person and having to speak face to face. there are other ways as well. Speaker 1: yep. great. great ways to start collaborating more. i think it's really yeah. it's it's where we're heading. i can see that it's, you know, when you started, it was kinda like this new thing, but now you hear a lot more people talking about it, which is great, which is great. and and i think it goes together with knowing who you are because then you show up in partnership with your boundaries, with your, you know, with your clear expectations. and and that makes a really good partnership. Speaker 2: exactly. Speaker 1: yeah. great. uh, that was awesome. kim, please do share where people can find you. tell us about your community as well. Speaker 2: um, i just launched and haven't really sent it to anybody, but i finally created a little small website, um, just with my name, kimdekoster.com. because everything about me is on there. like, all of my brands, the projects i'm involved in, i'm like, i need this little thing where everybody so that's one. great. and i think all the info is is Speaker 1: is on Speaker 2: that site. yeah. okay. is on that website, basically. Speaker 1: well, maybe what you can do is send me, you know, the compass, if you can send me that, and i'll include that in the show notes. so in case people are like, i don't know what she's talking about, they can go and look Speaker 2: it up. i will. yeah. i'll i'll take out that page because, um, by now, there's a playbook, obviously, as well. um, and so it comes with a little like, you can do the exercise by yourself. um, i'll take out that page and and send it over to her so people have that compass. Speaker 1: yeah. that's great. and if they if they can download it on your website, well, that, you know, if you make that available, then let me know and i'll link to that as well. Speaker 2: i will. perfect. Speaker 1: thanks so much for being a guest, kim. Speaker 2: thank you for having me, ovelyn. it was fun. thank you. Speaker 1: thank you.

I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the Doing, Knowing and Saying aspects of the new 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program send me an email to sarah@humane.marketing with the words 'Inside Scoop' and I'll send you the first draft of the outline of the program.

I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the Doing, Knowing and Saying aspects of the new 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program.  If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program send me an email to sarah@humane.marketing with the words 'Inside Scoop' and I'll send you the first draft of the outline of the program. 

I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the Doing, Knowing and Saying aspects of the new 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program send me an email to sarah@humane.marketing with the words 'Inside Scoop' and I'll send you the first draft of the outline of the program.

In this heartfelt and honest conversation, I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the VIP process of the new 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program.  We explore the vibe, ideal client and program promise of the upcoming program.  If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program send me an email to sarah@humane.marketing with the words 'Inside Scoop' and I'll send you the first draft of the outline of the program.  In the next convo we'll talk about the Doing part of the program

In this heartfelt and honest conversation, I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the VIP process of the new 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. We explore the vibe, ideal client and program promise of the upcoming program. If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program send me an email to sarah@humane.marketing with the words 'Inside Scoop' and I'll send you the first draft of the outline of the program. In the next convo we'll talk about the Doing part of the program

In this heartfelt and honest conversation, I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the VIP process of the new 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. We explore the vibe, ideal client and program promise of the upcoming program. If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program send me an email to sarah@humane.marketing with the words 'Inside Scoop' and I'll send you the first draft of the outline of the program. In the next convo we'll talk about the Doing part of the program

In this soulful episode, I'm joined by healing guide Betty Cottam Bertels to explore how the blocks we face in business often stem from unhealed childhood wounds. We talk about why part of us might resist the success we say we want, how patterns like perfectionism and procrastination are actually protective, and how tools like hypnosis and parts work can help us shift deeply and quickly. This conversation is an invitation for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs to bring more compassion, clarity, and ease into their business — by starting with the healing within. In this episode we discussed: How Betty's journey into inner healing began with an unexpected emotional release and how it now shapes her work with entrepreneurs Why feelings of "stuckness" in business are often rooted in unprocessed childhood experiences or early beliefs The subtle ways our unhealed inner child shows up in business through patterns like procrastination, perfectionism, and people-pleasing How to "update the software" of old protective patterns by dialoguing with the parts of us still running outdated beliefs Why deep healing doesn't have to take years, and how working at the subconscious level can lead to fast, lasting shifts How hypnosis helps quiet the conscious mind so we can access and release the real root of our blocks What it feels like to start running your business from a healed, grounded adult self, with stronger boundaries and more ease How aligned, empowered decision-making becomes possible when we're no longer operating from wounded places One gentle first step you can take this week if you recognize yourself in this conversation A sneak peek of what Betty will guide us through in the live workshop on September 3rd, 5pm CET, 11am EST. Watch this episode on Youtube -- Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. Speaker 0: hi, betty. how are you today? Speaker 1: hello, sarah. thanks so much for having me. i'm very excited and simultaneously in a slight bit of discomfort in my lower back because i've been not looking after myself and sitting too much. so, my body's reminding me today. so, yeah. but very happy to be with you. Speaker 0: yeah. it's good to have you. and yes, after our conversation, you need to go for a walk yeah. barefoot, ideally. yeah. that sounds good. wonderful. we're we're gonna go deep, again. i love going deep. so i i suggest yeah. we just go straight into it. and and maybe you can tell people, listeners a little bit about how you got into this inner healing and making that your focus for your business and yeah, kind of the work you do. Speaker 1: yeah. thank you. so when i where to start? you never know how far back to go. i think i'll do a very quick zoom over, a bird's eye view of my earlier life, just to give a context. i think this is maybe similar to you, sarah. i'm not entirely sure, but i was very much, yeah, i think people would, the easiest way of describing it is a hippie. yeah. you know? so like this kind of travelling mentality. i never wanted money, success, business. you know, these were words that were very foreign to me and actually words i would run from in the other direction. and what i spent most of my life doing, well, early life doing, was travelling and getting jobs that i could easily quit. that was my priority. raising enough money so i could go to india, or so i could go travelling, have amazing experiences, and never really once did i think about growing anything of any meaning. and then i met my partner, rob, and fast forward, and we're expecting a baby. and we were living in barcelona on a very shoestring budget at this point. you know, we both we were both teaching english as a foreign language. and, and suddenly we're expecting a baby. and he was the same as me, you know, very kind of shoestring traveller, musician. we'd both been in bands and festival lifestyle, this kind of thing. and so suddenly we're starting a family. and this is like a new feeling, right, of like, oh, now i want stability. like, i'm aware of wanting to create something stable and grow something secure because it's not just about me anymore. so, i'd always been interested in therapy. but you know, it was very difficult to know there's so many types of therapy out there that whenever i thought about, oh, i could train to be a therapist, it just was overwhelming. i could never make a decision. it felt like there's just all these different things. and then one day i heard a podcast with marissa pia, if you know her. she's the- no. so she styles herself as a kind of celebrity therapist. and really, the reason that she's made it so big is that the method she's created is incredibly powerful and it really works. anyway, i heard her talking on a podcast and she did this hypnosis kind of guided meditation thing about upgrading the child. the idea of this being that you're kind of going back in time and you're taking the earlier version of yourself and you're bringing them to live with you, you know, in your own home as an adult. and you're gonna look after them now and they're safe now and i'm upgrading you, showing you everything that's available to you now that wasn't available to you then. and you show them all the technology and all the amazing things that they couldn't have possibly dreamt of. anyway, so suddenly i'm listening to this podcast. i was in the garden potting, i remember. one baby, i had two babies by this point. one was upstairs napping. and, suddenly i'm in floods of tears, sarah. and i didn't know that, like, i didn't know that i needed healing. i thought that my childhood had been great. you know, it was pretty i thought, you know, it it was avarice. you know, there was nothing no capital t trauma i was aware of. and so i didn't have this desperate need to heal. anyway, i heard about marissa and i had this experience and i'm crying. and suddenly i know this is what i have to do. yeah. and so but it's so funny because i had so little well, now i can see i had so little self worth that i wouldn't even invest and so little money, right, having come from having nothing, really. you know, we were just scraping by and making ends meet and we somehow managed to get enough for a deposit to buy a little house. and, anyway, we didn't have a lot. but i didn't even want to invest the money to have a session on myself before doing this. i was always somebody who put everyone else's needs first and i imagine many of your listeners can relate to that. and so i signed my partner up for a session where i said, you know, you should try Speaker 0: this.' that's so funny. they're like, 'okay, you should go. yeah, you should go. i can Speaker 1: track that. that was a pattern in my life where i take care of everybody else. but i hadn't noticed that when realised it was a problem, if that makes sense. anyway, so i signed up. i did the course. we dug deep to invest. it's not a cheap training program. and i, have lost track of the question that you asked me. but Speaker 0: yeah. just kind of how how you got into it and and yeah. and your own healing journey. so you touched on that. okay. good. Speaker 1: it's, like, on track still. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. this this this notion of not really knowing that we need healing right. is probably something that you encounter a lot with with clients. right? that you're somehow stuck, but we don't know why we're stuck. Speaker 1: yes, exactly, sarah. you're bang on, really. and so many, well, so many people feel this kind of energetic barrier somehow. you know, that it's just not possible. but we'll we'll come back to that, in a moment. but what yeah. so i signed up and i did the training course, and i went to london. and i'm in this room with about 70 different mainly women who'd all signed up for this training course. and of course and and i was thinking, i've got here on the skin of my teeth. i don't deserve my place in the room. i'm not like them. i'm different. i've i've never had any kind of success in my life. i'm, you know, i'm a complete outsider, and i just couldn't believe i was even there. i couldn't believe they'd even accepted me onto the course, which now looking back is is bonkers. it's crazy. but that's that is how my core beliefs were. you know, a lot one of the when i finally did do a lot of the healing that i had to do because i was training in it, i had to do the healing on myself. otherwise, i never would have done. i was the one when marissa was leading the sessions, and we were all in hypnosis, like 70 of us, everyone's sitting there, you know, drooped, head drooped, and she's walking around and she's guiding this. the session, i was always the one crying the loudest, like sobbing and wailing, so much so that i was distracting everyone else. but i never had a sense that anything needed healing. it's so funny. and then when once i started to understand the power of this method, and honestly it's so powerful, you know, i was seeing in the training, i was seeing some live sessions and some recorded sessions of marissa, you know, working with a woman, for example, who'd shattered so many bones in her body after a car accident, she couldn't stand. and then by the end of the session, she's standing. you know, this is like miraculous stuff i was witnessing. and my entire world view had to reorganise itself whilst i was doing this training programme. like, everything just reorganised itself in my head. i and yeah. maybe i'll pause Speaker 0: for a minute. yeah. in case Speaker 1: you have Speaker 0: a question. so so i'm happy that you shared how you got into this. and and i think what we now want to shift into is, like, yeah, the actual inner work. right? because that's what this, podcast episode we decided is going to be about. and so before i mentioned that a lot of us entrepreneurs yeah. you said there's this energetic block, but we don't know what it is. and so what you're saying, i think you're going to explain to me how it's different from inner child work, but you did mention to bring the inner child to the present and kind of like nurture it. so, yeah, tell us a little bit, i guess, tell us a little bit first how and why so often these blockages are going back to childhood. Speaker 1: yeah. so it's not necessarily childhood that we go back to. it could be anything. okay. it could be a moment in your twenties. it could be a past life thing. it could be an ancestral thing. and now this is where some people have different beliefs around this. so i just tend to go with what the client presents and what they understand is happening. and you know, when we get into this relaxed state of hypnosis, we it's like we just tune out the noise. and we can really get very focused on what's real. and everything that's ever happened to us is is still there. we can access it when we get into this very relaxed, very focused state of hypnosis. and, you know, what i've come to understand is the body the human beings, we want to heal. you know? we know how to do it. we just need to decide, i think, is the first thing. so, i've i've forgotten the question you asked me again, sarah. Speaker 0: yeah. like, if it always happens in the childhood or how do we know Speaker 1: yeah. right. Speaker 0: where yeah. Speaker 1: yeah. so the reason that so much of this does go back to childhood is that between the ages of naught to seven, when we come into the world, we are a blank canvas. we and we have to come in like that because we have to learn the ways of our family, of our people, of our community. we have to be able but but because we need to fit in, you know, our subconscious mind, its job is to keep us alive effectively. you know, this is like a very it goes back to serious survival mechanisms. so it needs to learn what's dangerous. it needs to learn what to be afraid of. and you could that could be about certain animals or plants if you go back. but now it's like we we learn different threats from our parents. you know, what what do they find threatening? what do they find scary? we just we just have a sixth sense about that, really. we just download that automatically. for good reason. because we're trying to stay alive. part of us, the subconscious, is just trying to keep us alive. yeah. that's the question. Speaker 0: and so i guess so what i know from inner child work is that a lot of the the coping mechanisms we create are there to protect us. right? and so i think what what your work is also or or what we decided we wanted to focus on is is this idea of how can we will open these blockages so that we can really reach our full potential without having, yeah, our inner child keeping us small and saying, oh, but you can't do that. it's too scary. yeah. so talk yeah. take us into that. so how Speaker 1: we do it? how how we stop the child from having control? yeah. okay. so the first step is we have to decide that's what we're going to do. first, we have to know that there's a problem because, funnily enough, i've worked with people who didn't acknowledge the problem. and, of course, we can't we can't get anywhere without that. they have to be have a very real sense of what's not working and what they want it to look like when it's removed, when the block is removed. and then yeah. so the rtt, i mean, this is the method i learned from marisa peer, rapid transformational therapy. this method is incredible. so it's a type of hypnotherapy, but it blends a lot of different modalities together. you know, inner child yeah, this kind of inner child work and parts therapy, like internal family systems, if people are familiar with that. and, a bit of tapping. there's all sorts of yeah. she's just kind of taken a load of modalities and put them together to make this super therapy. okay. so how does it work? so we need to know what's stopping us. and then what we do is we ask the subconscious mind to take us back to the root cause of that block or that issue. and what happens is, say somebody's, you know, so if we're talking about business people, often the most common challenges are fears, if you like. can be visibility. you know, a lot of people come to me just so scared to be seen. so scared to be themselves. and they're presenting this artificial personality or they're presenting just like everyone else. but we know that we have to bring our full selves to the equation so that our people can find us. but that's so scary for so many because we've got this need to be liked and to fit in. and that, as we can see, goes back to childhood when it was this is such a deeply human thing. if you go back to tribal times, we needed to fit in because that was safety. safety in numbers. if you don't fit in with the tribe, you're exiled. you're not safe. you might get eaten by a tiger. this is a serious thing as far as the subconscious mind goes. the subconscious mind has zero sense of humor. so it takes everything so literally. so if i see somebody for visibility, let's say, and i would we'd always start by installing the core belief. so things like, i'm worthy, i deserve good things, i belong. you know, these are the things that are so central and affect so many of us. most people have this underlying belief, like, i'm not good enough. and so we need to attend to that. and once we've attended to that, we can we can look at this visibility wound. and what happens is so so often that we go back to school. when when we ask the client's mind to take us back to the root cause, they go back there. and i count them, you know, so that what actually is happening is they've they've got their eyes closed, they're lying down, and i'm saying, you know, on the count of five, four, three, two, one, you're going back. and what can you see? what can you hear? what can you feel? what are you experiencing in this moment? and then they're bringing to mind, a moment from their earlier life. and so often with a visibility wound, it might be that they're at school, they might be on stage. i had one recently, one lady, she was on stage, and it was just so uncomfortable and so unnatural. she just had these very bright lights shining in her face. and it wasn't, like, major trauma in this instance. it was just, like, we're looking for what we tell ourselves as a result of what happened. so it's not even about what happened. it might have been a very traumatic experience, but it might not have been. and each person will respond differently. so we're really looking for the meaning. we're looking for what i told myself after this event. and in this lady's she's a very successful woman. she's a doctor. and she's come to me to start her own business, and she felt so terrified of speaking about natural health, which is what she she wanted to talk about, the mind body connection. but she felt like this complete blockage in her throat around speaking up, around being, you know, just such fear that people would shut her down. and what we went back to, one of the scenes was, yeah, this being on stage and it just being so uncomfortable. and what happened as a result of that was we say to ourselves things like, 'i'd rather die than do that again', or, you know, i'm just what do we say? well, there's all sorts of phrases like that that become common. self Speaker 0: shaming and basically negative self talk. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. and just that that was painful somehow. Speaker 0: that's a mini trauma basically. yeah. you know, that that we then some times blow up in our own minds. right. yes. i remember so clearly i was in a in a kind of like a mastermind group and we were talking about all these kind of things and inner work and and people were sharing, like, real trauma, like losing their dance or, or, or. yeah. all kinds of usually related to some kind of grief. right. so i was like, well, i didn't experience any of that. like you, you're like, you know, i'm like, i don't have any trauma in my life. and then i started to make the difference between trauma with the big t and the mini traumas that we almost, like, blow up ourselves in our Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: our emotions as well. right? it's it's not always something that happens. like yeah. you said, it's just, like, how we lived it. and that then does in our heads and and tells us that was not safe. Speaker 1: you don't Speaker 0: wanna go there again. and so what you're saying is through the hypnosis, that's what you can, yeah, heal. Speaker 1: yeah. well, when you uncover it, when you understand it, it suddenly makes sense. then you go, oh, i see why i don't wanna do that. i see why i don't wanna go live on facebook right. because of this experience of when i was on stage or or what people said to me when i was a child when i was on stage. and then you can go, 'that is completely irrelevant. that's not going to happen now.' so then we do this thing called it's not me'. we just draw a line in the sand. we say, 'okay. well then i was five.' and that made perfect sense to respond in that way. and now i'm an adult and i don't need now i'm trying to grow my business and blah blah blah blah. and you give all the reasons why you do want to do it. and then we get into this kind of juicy and yeah, this is my favorite bit at the moment. i'm really enjoying doing this parts work where we can scan around the body because these traumas, these things, live in the body. and so in the hypnosis, we can find them. we can locate where the block is. and when it's i'm gesturing to my throat here when it's a thing around speaking out, when people have, you know, and sometimes we go back to witch, persecutions, all sorts of things. like sometimes people experience a hand around their throat. and you might wonder where that comes from, but that's not the point. it might be that something like that happened or not, but the point is it's there. and then we dialogue with it. it's so easy. we just ask it, why are you there? what happened?' and then we explain. and almost always, this part is trying to help. it's trying to keep you alive. it says, oh, i need to protect betty from speaking up because she did that once and she died, or she almost died, or if we're talking about past life stuff. or it was just really uncomfortable, or i just promised i'd never do it again, or i got beaten. there's all these things that it can be big t trauma as well. that does happen too. Speaker 0: especially in past lives, right, don't we? Speaker 1: oh, yeah. all sorts of things. but the thing to note is 99.9% of the time, these parts are trying to help us. they're trying to protect us. and they're they've just got this you know, if it's been there since you were two or even in the womb, some so often people go back to being in the womb. and so they they they haven't got many options available to them about how to survive or be good or be liked. but, you know, what they can do is create this kind of protective mechanism. but, to stop them from saying the wrong thing or, because it wasn't safe. and so what we do is it's so simple. we just give it a voice, sarah. we just say and then we say, ah, thank you. i see why you are there now. and your only intention was to protect me. hey, i don't need that anymore. i'm not two. i'm an adult. and then we say, you can go now. and you know, this is the most exciting part because so often i can see when the part leaves. i can see it in them. there's just this relaxation, this relief. and sometimes it doesn't leave, but we reintegrate it. it wants to stay, so we find it a better job to do. you know, i just go with Speaker 0: i'm just laughing because, yeah, i just need to share this little story because i just literally yesterday until yesterday, i didn't know what ifs stood for. so internal family systems therapy or something like that. Speaker 1: exactly. yeah. Speaker 0: and so, so, we have a community and emily, in the community, during our expo, she hosted a workshop around, meet, meet all your parts or something like that. and so i, was privileged to have a mini session with her around these parts. and i, and i, what i brought up is that i always have the struggle between ambition and enthusiasm. so naturally, i'm a very ambitious person. but over the last five or so years, i wanna come to more transform it into enthusiasm and just, you know, be more in the flow and not be so hard, soft and, etcetera. and so, yeah, she was guiding me through this mini session. and then the the visual i saw, and i'm not usually a visual person, but the visual i saw was that ambition was like this friend who moved to another country. we're still friends, and i can still reach her and we can still talk over the phone or zoom. but she there's a distance between us now. and i felt such a huge relief that i can tap into the ambition if i need to talk to her. right. but it's no longer so close. and so that yeah. that that's that was my discovery with parts work yesterday, and it was just great. Speaker 1: i love that. what a what a coincidence. synchronicity. synchronicity. right. that you had that yesterday. it's amazing. yeah. really. and, you know, just yesterday i saw a 73 year old man who was struggling. he was a healer as well, and he was just really struggling to he had an audience and he was struggling to show up for them. and we just we discovered there was a part that had been there since he was two that was, like his parents had left him too long on his own. and he had this abandonment thing. and and that was that had come in when he was two, and it was still there. and and it took literally less than ten minutes, and it was gone. wow. and he felt completely different. it was in his solar plexus. and it was gone. and he said, i feel so much lighter. and he was grinning from ear to ear. he was just so happy. and so really, the parts work is very exciting. Speaker 0: so for people who are listening to this, well, first of all, we want to invite them to join us in your in our collab workshop on september 3. right? so if if you're listening and you're like, yeah. i need to i need to see betty in action, and you're you'll take us through a hypnosis. right? so yes. we'll actually do that, in the workshop. the same one. Speaker 1: yeah. the same one that i heard. when, you know, my version of the one that i Speaker 0: so we'll all be crying, but it will be a safe container. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: so, yeah, if you wanna join us for that, that's at humane.marketing/workshop. so on september 3. but if people, you know, can't join us, what would you tell them? where can they start this connection with their inner child or or their different parts? well, Speaker 1: you could go to truewealthwithbetty.com. and if you go well, i'd love to invite people i'd love to invite people in your audience if they're intrigued by my work. i offer a gift session. so would it be okay to Speaker 0: yeah. sure. Speaker 1: give the yeah. so, i mean, we can presumably, we can give the links Speaker 0: separately. i'll put the link in the show notes. yeah. Speaker 1: yeah. if you go to truewealthwithbetty.com/ work with betty, you can find a link to book a forty five minute gift session. and, yeah, i love doing those. it's so much fun. see what we can uncover in just forty five minutes. and people have incredible experiences. yeah. and just i wanted to say one final thing, sarah, if it's okay, just why i've called my website true wealth with betty. because, you know, the name just came to me, and i didn't understand it at the time. i just said, this is what i need to call it. and i didn't really know. and it's the name of my podcast too, true wealth with betty. and then i realized that, you know, for my early life, as i said, i had this, i'd never had much money. i never wanted it. but what i got was this, like, understanding that wealth is not about money. you know, wealth is about an ability to enjoy our lives. and so that is what i help people with. they come to me for business. so, you know, this niche that i'm working in is helping entrepreneurs with a big vision, who feel stuck or scared about the size of their vision. but what happens, the side effects, is where they, we always score the different things we're keeping track of, and where they've come to me with like a one or two for overall happiness, they're leaving with a nine or a 10. everything in your life, i mean, everything's holistic, isn't it? we all know that. so when you do this kind of healing work, you might come to it for your business, but your relationship will improve. you know, your your just sense of happiness and your presence and your mothering or your fathering, you know, all of it improves. it's amazing. Speaker 0: yeah. i think that's that's so close to my heart. i think i shared with you that i'm releasing the latest book business, like we're human and. and just on the last conversation for change, lisa, who was there, she was just sharing, we did a kind of a visualization around, the ubuntu tree realizing that we're all one, you know, humans, family members, ancestors, but also nature. and then she was sharing as a kind of reflection how small the business part really is in our life. if you compare it to the rest and how small of an importance we can also give it. right? yes. it has importance because we make our living with the business. but out of the big scheme of things, if you think about ubuntu and the moon and the stars and and nature and all of that, it's just a tiny thing. and, yeah, to really truly be happy, the business is just one thing, and there's all these other things involved. Speaker 1: yeah. but, yes. and i think that that, you know, when we do sort out the business so that it can be profitable, so that we can relax, you know, because so many of us are in the early stages of business. it's it's stressful, isn't it? the rollercoaster, the up and down, and will we be able to meet the bills, and will i have to give it all up, and all of that. but yeah. so when we and the other the other main focus that i do in the sessions is about our strange relationship with money, because that was my my thing. you know? this thing about money won't buy you happiness was, like, this deep rooted understanding. so those are the kinds of things that can also be unpicked with this work. and, just welcoming in ease and more fun in the business and more flow. you know, i think when we do this work and when we're operating from the adult who, let's face it, is it okay to swear? who doesn't give, you know, a damn about other people, really. you know? that you're just operating how you wanna operate. you get to do things how you you get to do it your way. you know? and so often we're stuck in these shoulds, and then business isn't fun, is it? it's fun. and when we make it our own thing, then it can be it can be fun. yeah. Speaker 0: tell people again where they can find you in the yeah. so the name of your podcast. Speaker 1: thank you. so it's truewealthwithbetty.com. and you can navigate there to the tab at the top, work with betty, and you can find the link to book a gift session if you would like to. and also, wherever you listen to your podcasts, you can find the true wealth with betty podcast. Speaker 0: wonderful. thank you so much for being here. Speaker 1: thanks for having me, sarah. i'm so excited about september. me too.

In this soulful episode, I'm joined by healing guide Betty Cottam Bertels to explore how the blocks we face in business often stem from unhealed childhood wounds. We talk about why part of us might resist the success we say we want, how patterns like perfectionism and procrastination are actually protective, and how tools like hypnosis and parts work can help us shift deeply and quickly. This conversation is an invitation for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs to bring more compassion, clarity, and ease into their business — by starting with the healing within. In this episode we discussed: How Betty's journey into inner healing began with an unexpected emotional release and how it now shapes her work with entrepreneurs Why feelings of “stuckness” in business are often rooted in unprocessed childhood experiences or early beliefs The subtle ways our unhealed inner child shows up in business through patterns like procrastination, perfectionism, and people-pleasing How to “update the software” of old protective patterns by dialoguing with the parts of us still running outdated beliefs Why deep healing doesn't have to take years, and how working at the subconscious level can lead to fast, lasting shifts How hypnosis helps quiet the conscious mind so we can access and release the real root of our blocks What it feels like to start running your business from a healed, grounded adult self, with stronger boundaries and more ease How aligned, empowered decision-making becomes possible when we're no longer operating from wounded places One gentle first step you can take this week if you recognize yourself in this conversation A sneak peek of what Betty will guide us through in the live workshop on September 3rd, 5pm CET, 11am EST. Watch this episode on Youtube -- Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. Speaker 0: hi, betty. how are you today? Speaker 1: hello, sarah. thanks so much for having me. i'm very excited and simultaneously in a slight bit of discomfort in my lower back because i've been not looking after myself and sitting too much. so, my body's reminding me today. so, yeah. but very happy to be with you. Speaker 0: yeah. it's good to have you. and yes, after our conversation, you need to go for a walk yeah. barefoot, ideally. yeah. that sounds good. wonderful. we're we're gonna go deep, again. i love going deep. so i i suggest yeah. we just go straight into it. and and maybe you can tell people, listeners a little bit about how you got into this inner healing and making that your focus for your business and yeah, kind of the work you do. Speaker 1: yeah. thank you. so when i where to start? you never know how far back to go. i think i'll do a very quick zoom over, a bird's eye view of my earlier life, just to give a context. i think this is maybe similar to you, sarah. i'm not entirely sure, but i was very much, yeah, i think people would, the easiest way of describing it is a hippie. yeah. you know? so like this kind of travelling mentality. i never wanted money, success, business. you know, these were words that were very foreign to me and actually words i would run from in the other direction. and what i spent most of my life doing, well, early life doing, was travelling and getting jobs that i could easily quit. that was my priority. raising enough money so i could go to india, or so i could go travelling, have amazing experiences, and never really once did i think about growing anything of any meaning. and then i met my partner, rob, and fast forward, and we're expecting a baby. and we were living in barcelona on a very shoestring budget at this point. you know, we both we were both teaching english as a foreign language. and, and suddenly we're expecting a baby. and he was the same as me, you know, very kind of shoestring traveller, musician. we'd both been in bands and festival lifestyle, this kind of thing. and so suddenly we're starting a family. and this is like a new feeling, right, of like, oh, now i want stability. like, i'm aware of wanting to create something stable and grow something secure because it's not just about me anymore. so, i'd always been interested in therapy. but you know, it was very difficult to know there's so many types of therapy out there that whenever i thought about, oh, i could train to be a therapist, it just was overwhelming. i could never make a decision. it felt like there's just all these different things. and then one day i heard a podcast with marissa pia, if you know her. she's the- no. so she styles herself as a kind of celebrity therapist. and really, the reason that she's made it so big is that the method she's created is incredibly powerful and it really works. anyway, i heard her talking on a podcast and she did this hypnosis kind of guided meditation thing about upgrading the child. the idea of this being that you're kind of going back in time and you're taking the earlier version of yourself and you're bringing them to live with you, you know, in your own home as an adult. and you're gonna look after them now and they're safe now and i'm upgrading you, showing you everything that's available to you now that wasn't available to you then. and you show them all the technology and all the amazing things that they couldn't have possibly dreamt of. anyway, so suddenly i'm listening to this podcast. i was in the garden potting, i remember. one baby, i had two babies by this point. one was upstairs napping. and, suddenly i'm in floods of tears, sarah. and i didn't know that, like, i didn't know that i needed healing. i thought that my childhood had been great. you know, it was pretty i thought, you know, it it was avarice. you know, there was nothing no capital t trauma i was aware of. and so i didn't have this desperate need to heal. anyway, i heard about marissa and i had this experience and i'm crying. and suddenly i know this is what i have to do. yeah. and so but it's so funny because i had so little well, now i can see i had so little self worth that i wouldn't even invest and so little money, right, having come from having nothing, really. you know, we were just scraping by and making ends meet and we somehow managed to get enough for a deposit to buy a little house. and, anyway, we didn't have a lot. but i didn't even want to invest the money to have a session on myself before doing this. i was always somebody who put everyone else's needs first and i imagine many of your listeners can relate to that. and so i signed my partner up for a session where i said, you know, you should try Speaker 0: this.' that's so funny. they're like, 'okay, you should go. yeah, you should go. i can Speaker 1: track that. that was a pattern in my life where i take care of everybody else. but i hadn't noticed that when realised it was a problem, if that makes sense. anyway, so i signed up. i did the course. we dug deep to invest. it's not a cheap training program. and i, have lost track of the question that you asked me. but Speaker 0: yeah. just kind of how how you got into it and and yeah. and your own healing journey. so you touched on that. okay. good. Speaker 1: it's, like, on track still. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. this this this notion of not really knowing that we need healing right. is probably something that you encounter a lot with with clients. right? that you're somehow stuck, but we don't know why we're stuck. Speaker 1: yes, exactly, sarah. you're bang on, really. and so many, well, so many people feel this kind of energetic barrier somehow. you know, that it's just not possible. but we'll we'll come back to that, in a moment. but what yeah. so i signed up and i did the training course, and i went to london. and i'm in this room with about 70 different mainly women who'd all signed up for this training course. and of course and and i was thinking, i've got here on the skin of my teeth. i don't deserve my place in the room. i'm not like them. i'm different. i've i've never had any kind of success in my life. i'm, you know, i'm a complete outsider, and i just couldn't believe i was even there. i couldn't believe they'd even accepted me onto the course, which now looking back is is bonkers. it's crazy. but that's that is how my core beliefs were. you know, a lot one of the when i finally did do a lot of the healing that i had to do because i was training in it, i had to do the healing on myself. otherwise, i never would have done. i was the one when marissa was leading the sessions, and we were all in hypnosis, like 70 of us, everyone's sitting there, you know, drooped, head drooped, and she's walking around and she's guiding this. the session, i was always the one crying the loudest, like sobbing and wailing, so much so that i was distracting everyone else. but i never had a sense that anything needed healing. it's so funny. and then when once i started to understand the power of this method, and honestly it's so powerful, you know, i was seeing in the training, i was seeing some live sessions and some recorded sessions of marissa, you know, working with a woman, for example, who'd shattered so many bones in her body after a car accident, she couldn't stand. and then by the end of the session, she's standing. you know, this is like miraculous stuff i was witnessing. and my entire world view had to reorganise itself whilst i was doing this training programme. like, everything just reorganised itself in my head. i and yeah. maybe i'll pause Speaker 0: for a minute. yeah. in case Speaker 1: you have Speaker 0: a question. so so i'm happy that you shared how you got into this. and and i think what we now want to shift into is, like, yeah, the actual inner work. right? because that's what this, podcast episode we decided is going to be about. and so before i mentioned that a lot of us entrepreneurs yeah. you said there's this energetic block, but we don't know what it is. and so what you're saying, i think you're going to explain to me how it's different from inner child work, but you did mention to bring the inner child to the present and kind of like nurture it. so, yeah, tell us a little bit, i guess, tell us a little bit first how and why so often these blockages are going back to childhood. Speaker 1: yeah. so it's not necessarily childhood that we go back to. it could be anything. okay. it could be a moment in your twenties. it could be a past life thing. it could be an ancestral thing. and now this is where some people have different beliefs around this. so i just tend to go with what the client presents and what they understand is happening. and you know, when we get into this relaxed state of hypnosis, we it's like we just tune out the noise. and we can really get very focused on what's real. and everything that's ever happened to us is is still there. we can access it when we get into this very relaxed, very focused state of hypnosis. and, you know, what i've come to understand is the body the human beings, we want to heal. you know? we know how to do it. we just need to decide, i think, is the first thing. so, i've i've forgotten the question you asked me again, sarah. Speaker 0: yeah. like, if it always happens in the childhood or how do we know Speaker 1: yeah. right. Speaker 0: where yeah. Speaker 1: yeah. so the reason that so much of this does go back to childhood is that between the ages of naught to seven, when we come into the world, we are a blank canvas. we and we have to come in like that because we have to learn the ways of our family, of our people, of our community. we have to be able but but because we need to fit in, you know, our subconscious mind, its job is to keep us alive effectively. you know, this is like a very it goes back to serious survival mechanisms. so it needs to learn what's dangerous. it needs to learn what to be afraid of. and you could that could be about certain animals or plants if you go back. but now it's like we we learn different threats from our parents. you know, what what do they find threatening? what do they find scary? we just we just have a sixth sense about that, really. we just download that automatically. for good reason. because we're trying to stay alive. part of us, the subconscious, is just trying to keep us alive. yeah. that's the question. Speaker 0: and so i guess so what i know from inner child work is that a lot of the the coping mechanisms we create are there to protect us. right? and so i think what what your work is also or or what we decided we wanted to focus on is is this idea of how can we will open these blockages so that we can really reach our full potential without having, yeah, our inner child keeping us small and saying, oh, but you can't do that. it's too scary. yeah. so talk yeah. take us into that. so how Speaker 1: we do it? how how we stop the child from having control? yeah. okay. so the first step is we have to decide that's what we're going to do. first, we have to know that there's a problem because, funnily enough, i've worked with people who didn't acknowledge the problem. and, of course, we can't we can't get anywhere without that. they have to be have a very real sense of what's not working and what they want it to look like when it's removed, when the block is removed. and then yeah. so the rtt, i mean, this is the method i learned from marisa peer, rapid transformational therapy. this method is incredible. so it's a type of hypnotherapy, but it blends a lot of different modalities together. you know, inner child yeah, this kind of inner child work and parts therapy, like internal family systems, if people are familiar with that. and, a bit of tapping. there's all sorts of yeah. she's just kind of taken a load of modalities and put them together to make this super therapy. okay. so how does it work? so we need to know what's stopping us. and then what we do is we ask the subconscious mind to take us back to the root cause of that block or that issue. and what happens is, say somebody's, you know, so if we're talking about business people, often the most common challenges are fears, if you like. can be visibility. you know, a lot of people come to me just so scared to be seen. so scared to be themselves. and they're presenting this artificial personality or they're presenting just like everyone else. but we know that we have to bring our full selves to the equation so that our people can find us. but that's so scary for so many because we've got this need to be liked and to fit in. and that, as we can see, goes back to childhood when it was this is such a deeply human thing. if you go back to tribal times, we needed to fit in because that was safety. safety in numbers. if you don't fit in with the tribe, you're exiled. you're not safe. you might get eaten by a tiger. this is a serious thing as far as the subconscious mind goes. the subconscious mind has zero sense of humor. so it takes everything so literally. so if i see somebody for visibility, let's say, and i would we'd always start by installing the core belief. so things like, i'm worthy, i deserve good things, i belong. you know, these are the things that are so central and affect so many of us. most people have this underlying belief, like, i'm not good enough. and so we need to attend to that. and once we've attended to that, we can we can look at this visibility wound. and what happens is so so often that we go back to school. when when we ask the client's mind to take us back to the root cause, they go back there. and i count them, you know, so that what actually is happening is they've they've got their eyes closed, they're lying down, and i'm saying, you know, on the count of five, four, three, two, one, you're going back. and what can you see? what can you hear? what can you feel? what are you experiencing in this moment? and then they're bringing to mind, a moment from their earlier life. and so often with a visibility wound, it might be that they're at school, they might be on stage. i had one recently, one lady, she was on stage, and it was just so uncomfortable and so unnatural. she just had these very bright lights shining in her face. and it wasn't, like, major trauma in this instance. it was just, like, we're looking for what we tell ourselves as a result of what happened. so it's not even about what happened. it might have been a very traumatic experience, but it might not have been. and each person will respond differently. so we're really looking for the meaning. we're looking for what i told myself after this event. and in this lady's she's a very successful woman. she's a doctor. and she's come to me to start her own business, and she felt so terrified of speaking about natural health, which is what she she wanted to talk about, the mind body connection. but she felt like this complete blockage in her throat around speaking up, around being, you know, just such fear that people would shut her down. and what we went back to, one of the scenes was, yeah, this being on stage and it just being so uncomfortable. and what happened as a result of that was we say to ourselves things like, 'i'd rather die than do that again', or, you know, i'm just what do we say? well, there's all sorts of phrases like that that become common. self Speaker 0: shaming and basically negative self talk. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. and just that that was painful somehow. Speaker 0: that's a mini trauma basically. yeah. you know, that that we then some times blow up in our own minds. right. yes. i remember so clearly i was in a in a kind of like a mastermind group and we were talking about all these kind of things and inner work and and people were sharing, like, real trauma, like losing their dance or, or, or. yeah. all kinds of usually related to some kind of grief. right. so i was like, well, i didn't experience any of that. like you, you're like, you know, i'm like, i don't have any trauma in my life. and then i started to make the difference between trauma with the big t and the mini traumas that we almost, like, blow up ourselves in our Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: our emotions as well. right? it's it's not always something that happens. like yeah. you said, it's just, like, how we lived it. and that then does in our heads and and tells us that was not safe. Speaker 1: you don't Speaker 0: wanna go there again. and so what you're saying is through the hypnosis, that's what you can, yeah, heal. Speaker 1: yeah. well, when you uncover it, when you understand it, it suddenly makes sense. then you go, oh, i see why i don't wanna do that. i see why i don't wanna go live on facebook right. because of this experience of when i was on stage or or what people said to me when i was a child when i was on stage. and then you can go, 'that is completely irrelevant. that's not going to happen now.' so then we do this thing called it's not me'. we just draw a line in the sand. we say, 'okay. well then i was five.' and that made perfect sense to respond in that way. and now i'm an adult and i don't need now i'm trying to grow my business and blah blah blah blah. and you give all the reasons why you do want to do it. and then we get into this kind of juicy and yeah, this is my favorite bit at the moment. i'm really enjoying doing this parts work where we can scan around the body because these traumas, these things, live in the body. and so in the hypnosis, we can find them. we can locate where the block is. and when it's i'm gesturing to my throat here when it's a thing around speaking out, when people have, you know, and sometimes we go back to witch, persecutions, all sorts of things. like sometimes people experience a hand around their throat. and you might wonder where that comes from, but that's not the point. it might be that something like that happened or not, but the point is it's there. and then we dialogue with it. it's so easy. we just ask it, why are you there? what happened?' and then we explain. and almost always, this part is trying to help. it's trying to keep you alive. it says, oh, i need to protect betty from speaking up because she did that once and she died, or she almost died, or if we're talking about past life stuff. or it was just really uncomfortable, or i just promised i'd never do it again, or i got beaten. there's all these things that it can be big t trauma as well. that does happen too. Speaker 0: especially in past lives, right, don't we? Speaker 1: oh, yeah. all sorts of things. but the thing to note is 99.9% of the time, these parts are trying to help us. they're trying to protect us. and they're they've just got this you know, if it's been there since you were two or even in the womb, some so often people go back to being in the womb. and so they they they haven't got many options available to them about how to survive or be good or be liked. but, you know, what they can do is create this kind of protective mechanism. but, to stop them from saying the wrong thing or, because it wasn't safe. and so what we do is it's so simple. we just give it a voice, sarah. we just say and then we say, ah, thank you. i see why you are there now. and your only intention was to protect me. hey, i don't need that anymore. i'm not two. i'm an adult. and then we say, you can go now. and you know, this is the most exciting part because so often i can see when the part leaves. i can see it in them. there's just this relaxation, this relief. and sometimes it doesn't leave, but we reintegrate it. it wants to stay, so we find it a better job to do. you know, i just go with Speaker 0: i'm just laughing because, yeah, i just need to share this little story because i just literally yesterday until yesterday, i didn't know what ifs stood for. so internal family systems therapy or something like that. Speaker 1: exactly. yeah. Speaker 0: and so, so, we have a community and emily, in the community, during our expo, she hosted a workshop around, meet, meet all your parts or something like that. and so i, was privileged to have a mini session with her around these parts. and i, and i, what i brought up is that i always have the struggle between ambition and enthusiasm. so naturally, i'm a very ambitious person. but over the last five or so years, i wanna come to more transform it into enthusiasm and just, you know, be more in the flow and not be so hard, soft and, etcetera. and so, yeah, she was guiding me through this mini session. and then the the visual i saw, and i'm not usually a visual person, but the visual i saw was that ambition was like this friend who moved to another country. we're still friends, and i can still reach her and we can still talk over the phone or zoom. but she there's a distance between us now. and i felt such a huge relief that i can tap into the ambition if i need to talk to her. right. but it's no longer so close. and so that yeah. that that's that was my discovery with parts work yesterday, and it was just great. Speaker 1: i love that. what a what a coincidence. synchronicity. synchronicity. right. that you had that yesterday. it's amazing. yeah. really. and, you know, just yesterday i saw a 73 year old man who was struggling. he was a healer as well, and he was just really struggling to he had an audience and he was struggling to show up for them. and we just we discovered there was a part that had been there since he was two that was, like his parents had left him too long on his own. and he had this abandonment thing. and and that was that had come in when he was two, and it was still there. and and it took literally less than ten minutes, and it was gone. wow. and he felt completely different. it was in his solar plexus. and it was gone. and he said, i feel so much lighter. and he was grinning from ear to ear. he was just so happy. and so really, the parts work is very exciting. Speaker 0: so for people who are listening to this, well, first of all, we want to invite them to join us in your in our collab workshop on september 3. right? so if if you're listening and you're like, yeah. i need to i need to see betty in action, and you're you'll take us through a hypnosis. right? so yes. we'll actually do that, in the workshop. the same one. Speaker 1: yeah. the same one that i heard. when, you know, my version of the one that i Speaker 0: so we'll all be crying, but it will be a safe container. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: so, yeah, if you wanna join us for that, that's at humane.marketing/workshop. so on september 3. but if people, you know, can't join us, what would you tell them? where can they start this connection with their inner child or or their different parts? well, Speaker 1: you could go to truewealthwithbetty.com. and if you go well, i'd love to invite people i'd love to invite people in your audience if they're intrigued by my work. i offer a gift session. so would it be okay to Speaker 0: yeah. sure. Speaker 1: give the yeah. so, i mean, we can presumably, we can give the links Speaker 0: separately. i'll put the link in the show notes. yeah. Speaker 1: yeah. if you go to truewealthwithbetty.com/ work with betty, you can find a link to book a forty five minute gift session. and, yeah, i love doing those. it's so much fun. see what we can uncover in just forty five minutes. and people have incredible experiences. yeah. and just i wanted to say one final thing, sarah, if it's okay, just why i've called my website true wealth with betty. because, you know, the name just came to me, and i didn't understand it at the time. i just said, this is what i need to call it. and i didn't really know. and it's the name of my podcast too, true wealth with betty. and then i realized that, you know, for my early life, as i said, i had this, i'd never had much money. i never wanted it. but what i got was this, like, understanding that wealth is not about money. you know, wealth is about an ability to enjoy our lives. and so that is what i help people with. they come to me for business. so, you know, this niche that i'm working in is helping entrepreneurs with a big vision, who feel stuck or scared about the size of their vision. but what happens, the side effects, is where they, we always score the different things we're keeping track of, and where they've come to me with like a one or two for overall happiness, they're leaving with a nine or a 10. everything in your life, i mean, everything's holistic, isn't it? we all know that. so when you do this kind of healing work, you might come to it for your business, but your relationship will improve. you know, your your just sense of happiness and your presence and your mothering or your fathering, you know, all of it improves. it's amazing. Speaker 0: yeah. i think that's that's so close to my heart. i think i shared with you that i'm releasing the latest book business, like we're human and. and just on the last conversation for change, lisa, who was there, she was just sharing, we did a kind of a visualization around, the ubuntu tree realizing that we're all one, you know, humans, family members, ancestors, but also nature. and then she was sharing as a kind of reflection how small the business part really is in our life. if you compare it to the rest and how small of an importance we can also give it. right? yes. it has importance because we make our living with the business. but out of the big scheme of things, if you think about ubuntu and the moon and the stars and and nature and all of that, it's just a tiny thing. and, yeah, to really truly be happy, the business is just one thing, and there's all these other things involved. Speaker 1: yeah. but, yes. and i think that that, you know, when we do sort out the business so that it can be profitable, so that we can relax, you know, because so many of us are in the early stages of business. it's it's stressful, isn't it? the rollercoaster, the up and down, and will we be able to meet the bills, and will i have to give it all up, and all of that. but yeah. so when we and the other the other main focus that i do in the sessions is about our strange relationship with money, because that was my my thing. you know? this thing about money won't buy you happiness was, like, this deep rooted understanding. so those are the kinds of things that can also be unpicked with this work. and, just welcoming in ease and more fun in the business and more flow. you know, i think when we do this work and when we're operating from the adult who, let's face it, is it okay to swear? who doesn't give, you know, a damn about other people, really. you know? that you're just operating how you wanna operate. you get to do things how you you get to do it your way. you know? and so often we're stuck in these shoulds, and then business isn't fun, is it? it's fun. and when we make it our own thing, then it can be it can be fun. yeah. Speaker 0: tell people again where they can find you in the yeah. so the name of your podcast. Speaker 1: thank you. so it's truewealthwithbetty.com. and you can navigate there to the tab at the top, work with betty, and you can find the link to book a gift session if you would like to. and also, wherever you listen to your podcasts, you can find the true wealth with betty podcast. Speaker 0: wonderful. thank you so much for being here. Speaker 1: thanks for having me, sarah. i'm so excited about september. me too.

In this soulful episode, I'm joined by healing guide Betty Cottam Bertels to explore how the blocks we face in business often stem from unhealed childhood wounds. We talk about why part of us might resist the success we say we want, how patterns like perfectionism and procrastination are actually protective, and how tools like hypnosis and parts work can help us shift deeply and quickly. This conversation is an invitation for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs to bring more compassion, clarity, and ease into their business — by starting with the healing within. In this episode we discussed: How Betty's journey into inner healing began with an unexpected emotional release and how it now shapes her work with entrepreneurs Why feelings of "stuckness" in business are often rooted in unprocessed childhood experiences or early beliefs The subtle ways our unhealed inner child shows up in business through patterns like procrastination, perfectionism, and people-pleasing How to "update the software" of old protective patterns by dialoguing with the parts of us still running outdated beliefs Why deep healing doesn't have to take years, and how working at the subconscious level can lead to fast, lasting shifts How hypnosis helps quiet the conscious mind so we can access and release the real root of our blocks What it feels like to start running your business from a healed, grounded adult self, with stronger boundaries and more ease How aligned, empowered decision-making becomes possible when we're no longer operating from wounded places One gentle first step you can take this week if you recognize yourself in this conversation A sneak peek of what Betty will guide us through in the live workshop on September 3rd, 5pm CET, 11am EST. Watch this episode on Youtube -- Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. Speaker 0: hi, betty. how are you today? Speaker 1: hello, sarah. thanks so much for having me. i'm very excited and simultaneously in a slight bit of discomfort in my lower back because i've been not looking after myself and sitting too much. so, my body's reminding me today. so, yeah. but very happy to be with you. Speaker 0: yeah. it's good to have you. and yes, after our conversation, you need to go for a walk yeah. barefoot, ideally. yeah. that sounds good. wonderful. we're we're gonna go deep, again. i love going deep. so i i suggest yeah. we just go straight into it. and and maybe you can tell people, listeners a little bit about how you got into this inner healing and making that your focus for your business and yeah, kind of the work you do. Speaker 1: yeah. thank you. so when i where to start? you never know how far back to go. i think i'll do a very quick zoom over, a bird's eye view of my earlier life, just to give a context. i think this is maybe similar to you, sarah. i'm not entirely sure, but i was very much, yeah, i think people would, the easiest way of describing it is a hippie. yeah. you know? so like this kind of travelling mentality. i never wanted money, success, business. you know, these were words that were very foreign to me and actually words i would run from in the other direction. and what i spent most of my life doing, well, early life doing, was travelling and getting jobs that i could easily quit. that was my priority. raising enough money so i could go to india, or so i could go travelling, have amazing experiences, and never really once did i think about growing anything of any meaning. and then i met my partner, rob, and fast forward, and we're expecting a baby. and we were living in barcelona on a very shoestring budget at this point. you know, we both we were both teaching english as a foreign language. and, and suddenly we're expecting a baby. and he was the same as me, you know, very kind of shoestring traveller, musician. we'd both been in bands and festival lifestyle, this kind of thing. and so suddenly we're starting a family. and this is like a new feeling, right, of like, oh, now i want stability. like, i'm aware of wanting to create something stable and grow something secure because it's not just about me anymore. so, i'd always been interested in therapy. but you know, it was very difficult to know there's so many types of therapy out there that whenever i thought about, oh, i could train to be a therapist, it just was overwhelming. i could never make a decision. it felt like there's just all these different things. and then one day i heard a podcast with marissa pia, if you know her. she's the- no. so she styles herself as a kind of celebrity therapist. and really, the reason that she's made it so big is that the method she's created is incredibly powerful and it really works. anyway, i heard her talking on a podcast and she did this hypnosis kind of guided meditation thing about upgrading the child. the idea of this being that you're kind of going back in time and you're taking the earlier version of yourself and you're bringing them to live with you, you know, in your own home as an adult. and you're gonna look after them now and they're safe now and i'm upgrading you, showing you everything that's available to you now that wasn't available to you then. and you show them all the technology and all the amazing things that they couldn't have possibly dreamt of. anyway, so suddenly i'm listening to this podcast. i was in the garden potting, i remember. one baby, i had two babies by this point. one was upstairs napping. and, suddenly i'm in floods of tears, sarah. and i didn't know that, like, i didn't know that i needed healing. i thought that my childhood had been great. you know, it was pretty i thought, you know, it it was avarice. you know, there was nothing no capital t trauma i was aware of. and so i didn't have this desperate need to heal. anyway, i heard about marissa and i had this experience and i'm crying. and suddenly i know this is what i have to do. yeah. and so but it's so funny because i had so little well, now i can see i had so little self worth that i wouldn't even invest and so little money, right, having come from having nothing, really. you know, we were just scraping by and making ends meet and we somehow managed to get enough for a deposit to buy a little house. and, anyway, we didn't have a lot. but i didn't even want to invest the money to have a session on myself before doing this. i was always somebody who put everyone else's needs first and i imagine many of your listeners can relate to that. and so i signed my partner up for a session where i said, you know, you should try Speaker 0: this.' that's so funny. they're like, 'okay, you should go. yeah, you should go. i can Speaker 1: track that. that was a pattern in my life where i take care of everybody else. but i hadn't noticed that when realised it was a problem, if that makes sense. anyway, so i signed up. i did the course. we dug deep to invest. it's not a cheap training program. and i, have lost track of the question that you asked me. but Speaker 0: yeah. just kind of how how you got into it and and yeah. and your own healing journey. so you touched on that. okay. good. Speaker 1: it's, like, on track still. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. this this this notion of not really knowing that we need healing right. is probably something that you encounter a lot with with clients. right? that you're somehow stuck, but we don't know why we're stuck. Speaker 1: yes, exactly, sarah. you're bang on, really. and so many, well, so many people feel this kind of energetic barrier somehow. you know, that it's just not possible. but we'll we'll come back to that, in a moment. but what yeah. so i signed up and i did the training course, and i went to london. and i'm in this room with about 70 different mainly women who'd all signed up for this training course. and of course and and i was thinking, i've got here on the skin of my teeth. i don't deserve my place in the room. i'm not like them. i'm different. i've i've never had any kind of success in my life. i'm, you know, i'm a complete outsider, and i just couldn't believe i was even there. i couldn't believe they'd even accepted me onto the course, which now looking back is is bonkers. it's crazy. but that's that is how my core beliefs were. you know, a lot one of the when i finally did do a lot of the healing that i had to do because i was training in it, i had to do the healing on myself. otherwise, i never would have done. i was the one when marissa was leading the sessions, and we were all in hypnosis, like 70 of us, everyone's sitting there, you know, drooped, head drooped, and she's walking around and she's guiding this. the session, i was always the one crying the loudest, like sobbing and wailing, so much so that i was distracting everyone else. but i never had a sense that anything needed healing. it's so funny. and then when once i started to understand the power of this method, and honestly it's so powerful, you know, i was seeing in the training, i was seeing some live sessions and some recorded sessions of marissa, you know, working with a woman, for example, who'd shattered so many bones in her body after a car accident, she couldn't stand. and then by the end of the session, she's standing. you know, this is like miraculous stuff i was witnessing. and my entire world view had to reorganise itself whilst i was doing this training programme. like, everything just reorganised itself in my head. i and yeah. maybe i'll pause Speaker 0: for a minute. yeah. in case Speaker 1: you have Speaker 0: a question. so so i'm happy that you shared how you got into this. and and i think what we now want to shift into is, like, yeah, the actual inner work. right? because that's what this, podcast episode we decided is going to be about. and so before i mentioned that a lot of us entrepreneurs yeah. you said there's this energetic block, but we don't know what it is. and so what you're saying, i think you're going to explain to me how it's different from inner child work, but you did mention to bring the inner child to the present and kind of like nurture it. so, yeah, tell us a little bit, i guess, tell us a little bit first how and why so often these blockages are going back to childhood. Speaker 1: yeah. so it's not necessarily childhood that we go back to. it could be anything. okay. it could be a moment in your twenties. it could be a past life thing. it could be an ancestral thing. and now this is where some people have different beliefs around this. so i just tend to go with what the client presents and what they understand is happening. and you know, when we get into this relaxed state of hypnosis, we it's like we just tune out the noise. and we can really get very focused on what's real. and everything that's ever happened to us is is still there. we can access it when we get into this very relaxed, very focused state of hypnosis. and, you know, what i've come to understand is the body the human beings, we want to heal. you know? we know how to do it. we just need to decide, i think, is the first thing. so, i've i've forgotten the question you asked me again, sarah. Speaker 0: yeah. like, if it always happens in the childhood or how do we know Speaker 1: yeah. right. Speaker 0: where yeah. Speaker 1: yeah. so the reason that so much of this does go back to childhood is that between the ages of naught to seven, when we come into the world, we are a blank canvas. we and we have to come in like that because we have to learn the ways of our family, of our people, of our community. we have to be able but but because we need to fit in, you know, our subconscious mind, its job is to keep us alive effectively. you know, this is like a very it goes back to serious survival mechanisms. so it needs to learn what's dangerous. it needs to learn what to be afraid of. and you could that could be about certain animals or plants if you go back. but now it's like we we learn different threats from our parents. you know, what what do they find threatening? what do they find scary? we just we just have a sixth sense about that, really. we just download that automatically. for good reason. because we're trying to stay alive. part of us, the subconscious, is just trying to keep us alive. yeah. that's the question. Speaker 0: and so i guess so what i know from inner child work is that a lot of the the coping mechanisms we create are there to protect us. right? and so i think what what your work is also or or what we decided we wanted to focus on is is this idea of how can we will open these blockages so that we can really reach our full potential without having, yeah, our inner child keeping us small and saying, oh, but you can't do that. it's too scary. yeah. so talk yeah. take us into that. so how Speaker 1: we do it? how how we stop the child from having control? yeah. okay. so the first step is we have to decide that's what we're going to do. first, we have to know that there's a problem because, funnily enough, i've worked with people who didn't acknowledge the problem. and, of course, we can't we can't get anywhere without that. they have to be have a very real sense of what's not working and what they want it to look like when it's removed, when the block is removed. and then yeah. so the rtt, i mean, this is the method i learned from marisa peer, rapid transformational therapy. this method is incredible. so it's a type of hypnotherapy, but it blends a lot of different modalities together. you know, inner child yeah, this kind of inner child work and parts therapy, like internal family systems, if people are familiar with that. and, a bit of tapping. there's all sorts of yeah. she's just kind of taken a load of modalities and put them together to make this super therapy. okay. so how does it work? so we need to know what's stopping us. and then what we do is we ask the subconscious mind to take us back to the root cause of that block or that issue. and what happens is, say somebody's, you know, so if we're talking about business people, often the most common challenges are fears, if you like. can be visibility. you know, a lot of people come to me just so scared to be seen. so scared to be themselves. and they're presenting this artificial personality or they're presenting just like everyone else. but we know that we have to bring our full selves to the equation so that our people can find us. but that's so scary for so many because we've got this need to be liked and to fit in. and that, as we can see, goes back to childhood when it was this is such a deeply human thing. if you go back to tribal times, we needed to fit in because that was safety. safety in numbers. if you don't fit in with the tribe, you're exiled. you're not safe. you might get eaten by a tiger. this is a serious thing as far as the subconscious mind goes. the subconscious mind has zero sense of humor. so it takes everything so literally. so if i see somebody for visibility, let's say, and i would we'd always start by installing the core belief. so things like, i'm worthy, i deserve good things, i belong. you know, these are the things that are so central and affect so many of us. most people have this underlying belief, like, i'm not good enough. and so we need to attend to that. and once we've attended to that, we can we can look at this visibility wound. and what happens is so so often that we go back to school. when when we ask the client's mind to take us back to the root cause, they go back there. and i count them, you know, so that what actually is happening is they've they've got their eyes closed, they're lying down, and i'm saying, you know, on the count of five, four, three, two, one, you're going back. and what can you see? what can you hear? what can you feel? what are you experiencing in this moment? and then they're bringing to mind, a moment from their earlier life. and so often with a visibility wound, it might be that they're at school, they might be on stage. i had one recently, one lady, she was on stage, and it was just so uncomfortable and so unnatural. she just had these very bright lights shining in her face. and it wasn't, like, major trauma in this instance. it was just, like, we're looking for what we tell ourselves as a result of what happened. so it's not even about what happened. it might have been a very traumatic experience, but it might not have been. and each person will respond differently. so we're really looking for the meaning. we're looking for what i told myself after this event. and in this lady's she's a very successful woman. she's a doctor. and she's come to me to start her own business, and she felt so terrified of speaking about natural health, which is what she she wanted to talk about, the mind body connection. but she felt like this complete blockage in her throat around speaking up, around being, you know, just such fear that people would shut her down. and what we went back to, one of the scenes was, yeah, this being on stage and it just being so uncomfortable. and what happened as a result of that was we say to ourselves things like, 'i'd rather die than do that again', or, you know, i'm just what do we say? well, there's all sorts of phrases like that that become common. self Speaker 0: shaming and basically negative self talk. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. and just that that was painful somehow. Speaker 0: that's a mini trauma basically. yeah. you know, that that we then some times blow up in our own minds. right. yes. i remember so clearly i was in a in a kind of like a mastermind group and we were talking about all these kind of things and inner work and and people were sharing, like, real trauma, like losing their dance or, or, or. yeah. all kinds of usually related to some kind of grief. right. so i was like, well, i didn't experience any of that. like you, you're like, you know, i'm like, i don't have any trauma in my life. and then i started to make the difference between trauma with the big t and the mini traumas that we almost, like, blow up ourselves in our Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: our emotions as well. right? it's it's not always something that happens. like yeah. you said, it's just, like, how we lived it. and that then does in our heads and and tells us that was not safe. Speaker 1: you don't Speaker 0: wanna go there again. and so what you're saying is through the hypnosis, that's what you can, yeah, heal. Speaker 1: yeah. well, when you uncover it, when you understand it, it suddenly makes sense. then you go, oh, i see why i don't wanna do that. i see why i don't wanna go live on facebook right. because of this experience of when i was on stage or or what people said to me when i was a child when i was on stage. and then you can go, 'that is completely irrelevant. that's not going to happen now.' so then we do this thing called it's not me'. we just draw a line in the sand. we say, 'okay. well then i was five.' and that made perfect sense to respond in that way. and now i'm an adult and i don't need now i'm trying to grow my business and blah blah blah blah. and you give all the reasons why you do want to do it. and then we get into this kind of juicy and yeah, this is my favorite bit at the moment. i'm really enjoying doing this parts work where we can scan around the body because these traumas, these things, live in the body. and so in the hypnosis, we can find them. we can locate where the block is. and when it's i'm gesturing to my throat here when it's a thing around speaking out, when people have, you know, and sometimes we go back to witch, persecutions, all sorts of things. like sometimes people experience a hand around their throat. and you might wonder where that comes from, but that's not the point. it might be that something like that happened or not, but the point is it's there. and then we dialogue with it. it's so easy. we just ask it, why are you there? what happened?' and then we explain. and almost always, this part is trying to help. it's trying to keep you alive. it says, oh, i need to protect betty from speaking up because she did that once and she died, or she almost died, or if we're talking about past life stuff. or it was just really uncomfortable, or i just promised i'd never do it again, or i got beaten. there's all these things that it can be big t trauma as well. that does happen too. Speaker 0: especially in past lives, right, don't we? Speaker 1: oh, yeah. all sorts of things. but the thing to note is 99.9% of the time, these parts are trying to help us. they're trying to protect us. and they're they've just got this you know, if it's been there since you were two or even in the womb, some so often people go back to being in the womb. and so they they they haven't got many options available to them about how to survive or be good or be liked. but, you know, what they can do is create this kind of protective mechanism. but, to stop them from saying the wrong thing or, because it wasn't safe. and so what we do is it's so simple. we just give it a voice, sarah. we just say and then we say, ah, thank you. i see why you are there now. and your only intention was to protect me. hey, i don't need that anymore. i'm not two. i'm an adult. and then we say, you can go now. and you know, this is the most exciting part because so often i can see when the part leaves. i can see it in them. there's just this relaxation, this relief. and sometimes it doesn't leave, but we reintegrate it. it wants to stay, so we find it a better job to do. you know, i just go with Speaker 0: i'm just laughing because, yeah, i just need to share this little story because i just literally yesterday until yesterday, i didn't know what ifs stood for. so internal family systems therapy or something like that. Speaker 1: exactly. yeah. Speaker 0: and so, so, we have a community and emily, in the community, during our expo, she hosted a workshop around, meet, meet all your parts or something like that. and so i, was privileged to have a mini session with her around these parts. and i, and i, what i brought up is that i always have the struggle between ambition and enthusiasm. so naturally, i'm a very ambitious person. but over the last five or so years, i wanna come to more transform it into enthusiasm and just, you know, be more in the flow and not be so hard, soft and, etcetera. and so, yeah, she was guiding me through this mini session. and then the the visual i saw, and i'm not usually a visual person, but the visual i saw was that ambition was like this friend who moved to another country. we're still friends, and i can still reach her and we can still talk over the phone or zoom. but she there's a distance between us now. and i felt such a huge relief that i can tap into the ambition if i need to talk to her. right. but it's no longer so close. and so that yeah. that that's that was my discovery with parts work yesterday, and it was just great. Speaker 1: i love that. what a what a coincidence. synchronicity. synchronicity. right. that you had that yesterday. it's amazing. yeah. really. and, you know, just yesterday i saw a 73 year old man who was struggling. he was a healer as well, and he was just really struggling to he had an audience and he was struggling to show up for them. and we just we discovered there was a part that had been there since he was two that was, like his parents had left him too long on his own. and he had this abandonment thing. and and that was that had come in when he was two, and it was still there. and and it took literally less than ten minutes, and it was gone. wow. and he felt completely different. it was in his solar plexus. and it was gone. and he said, i feel so much lighter. and he was grinning from ear to ear. he was just so happy. and so really, the parts work is very exciting. Speaker 0: so for people who are listening to this, well, first of all, we want to invite them to join us in your in our collab workshop on september 3. right? so if if you're listening and you're like, yeah. i need to i need to see betty in action, and you're you'll take us through a hypnosis. right? so yes. we'll actually do that, in the workshop. the same one. Speaker 1: yeah. the same one that i heard. when, you know, my version of the one that i Speaker 0: so we'll all be crying, but it will be a safe container. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: so, yeah, if you wanna join us for that, that's at humane.marketing/workshop. so on september 3. but if people, you know, can't join us, what would you tell them? where can they start this connection with their inner child or or their different parts? well, Speaker 1: you could go to truewealthwithbetty.com. and if you go well, i'd love to invite people i'd love to invite people in your audience if they're intrigued by my work. i offer a gift session. so would it be okay to Speaker 0: yeah. sure. Speaker 1: give the yeah. so, i mean, we can presumably, we can give the links Speaker 0: separately. i'll put the link in the show notes. yeah. Speaker 1: yeah. if you go to truewealthwithbetty.com/ work with betty, you can find a link to book a forty five minute gift session. and, yeah, i love doing those. it's so much fun. see what we can uncover in just forty five minutes. and people have incredible experiences. yeah. and just i wanted to say one final thing, sarah, if it's okay, just why i've called my website true wealth with betty. because, you know, the name just came to me, and i didn't understand it at the time. i just said, this is what i need to call it. and i didn't really know. and it's the name of my podcast too, true wealth with betty. and then i realized that, you know, for my early life, as i said, i had this, i'd never had much money. i never wanted it. but what i got was this, like, understanding that wealth is not about money. you know, wealth is about an ability to enjoy our lives. and so that is what i help people with. they come to me for business. so, you know, this niche that i'm working in is helping entrepreneurs with a big vision, who feel stuck or scared about the size of their vision. but what happens, the side effects, is where they, we always score the different things we're keeping track of, and where they've come to me with like a one or two for overall happiness, they're leaving with a nine or a 10. everything in your life, i mean, everything's holistic, isn't it? we all know that. so when you do this kind of healing work, you might come to it for your business, but your relationship will improve. you know, your your just sense of happiness and your presence and your mothering or your fathering, you know, all of it improves. it's amazing. Speaker 0: yeah. i think that's that's so close to my heart. i think i shared with you that i'm releasing the latest book business, like we're human and. and just on the last conversation for change, lisa, who was there, she was just sharing, we did a kind of a visualization around, the ubuntu tree realizing that we're all one, you know, humans, family members, ancestors, but also nature. and then she was sharing as a kind of reflection how small the business part really is in our life. if you compare it to the rest and how small of an importance we can also give it. right? yes. it has importance because we make our living with the business. but out of the big scheme of things, if you think about ubuntu and the moon and the stars and and nature and all of that, it's just a tiny thing. and, yeah, to really truly be happy, the business is just one thing, and there's all these other things involved. Speaker 1: yeah. but, yes. and i think that that, you know, when we do sort out the business so that it can be profitable, so that we can relax, you know, because so many of us are in the early stages of business. it's it's stressful, isn't it? the rollercoaster, the up and down, and will we be able to meet the bills, and will i have to give it all up, and all of that. but yeah. so when we and the other the other main focus that i do in the sessions is about our strange relationship with money, because that was my my thing. you know? this thing about money won't buy you happiness was, like, this deep rooted understanding. so those are the kinds of things that can also be unpicked with this work. and, just welcoming in ease and more fun in the business and more flow. you know, i think when we do this work and when we're operating from the adult who, let's face it, is it okay to swear? who doesn't give, you know, a damn about other people, really. you know? that you're just operating how you wanna operate. you get to do things how you you get to do it your way. you know? and so often we're stuck in these shoulds, and then business isn't fun, is it? it's fun. and when we make it our own thing, then it can be it can be fun. yeah. Speaker 0: tell people again where they can find you in the yeah. so the name of your podcast. Speaker 1: thank you. so it's truewealthwithbetty.com. and you can navigate there to the tab at the top, work with betty, and you can find the link to book a gift session if you would like to. and also, wherever you listen to your podcasts, you can find the true wealth with betty podcast. Speaker 0: wonderful. thank you so much for being here. Speaker 1: thanks for having me, sarah. i'm so excited about september. me too.

In this heartfelt and honest conversation, I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore what it really looks like to co-create a meaningful group program. In this episode, Kerry takes me through a visualization on how it will feel like in my body, on the last day of the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. If you'd like to go through the visualization yourself, here's the link for the Great Group Revolution private podcast episode of the full process. If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program send me an email to sarah@humane.marketing with the words 'Inside Scoop' and I'll send you the first draft of the outline of the program. In the next convo we'll start working through Kerry's VIP Process (Vibe Promise, Ideal Participant, and Program Promise.

In this heartfelt and honest conversation, I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore what it really looks like to co-create a meaningful group program. In this episode, Kerry takes me through a visualization on how it will feel like in my body, on the last day of the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program.  If you'd like to go through the visualization yourself, here's the link for the Great Group Revolution private podcast episode of the full process.  If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program send me an email to sarah@humane.marketing with the words 'Inside Scoop' and I'll send you the first draft of the outline of the program.  In the next convo we'll start working through Kerry's VIP Process (Vibe Promise, Ideal Participant, and Program Promise.

In this heartfelt and honest conversation, I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore what it really looks like to co-create a meaningful group program. In this episode, Kerry takes me through a visualization on how it will feel like in my body, on the last day of the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. If you'd like to go through the visualization yourself, here's the link for the Great Group Revolution private podcast episode of the full process. If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program send me an email to sarah@humane.marketing with the words 'Inside Scoop' and I'll send you the first draft of the outline of the program. In the next convo we'll start working through Kerry's VIP Process (Vibe Promise, Ideal Participant, and Program Promise.

In this inspiring episode, I'm joined by Jessica Lohmann to explore how nature can guide us back to more meaningful, ethical ways of doing business. We talk about Jessica's journey from corporate marketing to founding Marketing by Nature and Ethical Brand Marketing, and how reconnecting with nature — and ourselves — can shift not just our business practices, but our entire mindset. From animal wisdom to simple daily rituals, Jessica shows how observing and honoring the natural world can bring more flow, purpose, and integrity into the way we work. In this episode we talked about: How Jessica's frustration with harmful, manipulative marketing led her to create Marketing by Nature and Ethical Brand Marketing The connection between our disconnection from nature and many societal problems How nature — especially animals — can inspire our business and marketing practices The role of spirit animals and how Jessica uses animal wisdom (like the misunderstood hyena) to guide her marketing and business decisions Daily practices to reconnect with nature, from simply walking outside to using oracle cards and observing animals The shift in mindset needed to make time for nature, embodiment, and rest — even as entrepreneurs Watch this episode on YouTube -- Speaker 0: hey, jessica. how are you? hello? i'm fine. how are you? yes, i'm good. hot, but good. yeah. same there. yeah, really looking forward to this, to this commerce conversation around marketing and nature. it's funny, it's like probably a year and a half or so that it comes up all the time, this topic of nature. and so when i started to see your linkedin posts, i'm like, yeah, she's someone i want to talk to on the podcast. so here we are. yeah. welcome. you have a program called marketing by nature. right. you have a business. remind me of the name of the business. ethical brand marketing. right. okay. so we have the ethical in common as well. but what really got my attention was the marketing by nature. so, yeah, tell us more about how this became your focus. Speaker 1: yeah. well, i do have a marketing degree. so i got that in 1991, and i worked in corporate, you know, for a long time and and moved to germany in 1995, so pretty early in my career. and i just watched because i graduated in 1991. we didn't have computers back then. right? like, only a few people did. so i watched how the internet basically increased the harmful manipulation in marketing over the years. and because before, it was just a little, like, false advertising. you know, it was still damaging, to some extent, but not to the, yeah, to what we have today. so it basically grew out of my frustration, of how marketing has been abused over the years. and also, like, with the nature part, because i'm very connected with nature, i've always, you know, we we went camping when i was young. i worked for veterinarians during high school and college. so i've always had this connection with animals. and, and i truly believe that the root cause of all our societal problems is our complete disconnect from nature. and there are people who will tell you, like, when that happened. it started when we start started, wearing shoes with rubber soles and, you know, those are kind of, yeah, i'm not really sure, but the industrial revolution definitely, helped with that disconnect. and so what i feel is that if we connect with nature, we are completely different people. like we actually find ourselves again and we respect ourselves. we don't criticize ourselves. we find love and also with other people and it just, yeah. so i just also feel, which i'm sure we'll talk about, throughout this conversation, how nature can really inspire us, how other species can inspire us, and also how we how we're all connected and how we can work together, to, yeah, to solve these super wicked problems that we've caused as one species. Speaker 0: so yeah. do you feel like like you said, you you've been, you know, super interested in this since 1991, which probably a lot of listeners, including i mean, including myself in 1991. yeah. nature was just this thing that we, you know, spent some leisure time in, but it wasn't yet we, there was no talk yet about reconnecting with nature. that is to me at least fairly recent. so did you all these years, because i, i know for humane marketing, the, the, this idea of, you know, doing marketing in a different way. for me, it started in 02/2006. right. which is like later much later than 1991. and even so, from 2006 till actually, no. not not even 02/2006. that's when i started my first business. it's more like 02/2018, i started talking about gentle marketing. and so for all this time, i felt like very alone talking about doing marketing differently. so i cannot imagine how you must have felt all these years. yeah. talking about connecting with nature and and how this relates to marketing. is this a story that i'm just telling myself or is this the Speaker 1: story that you lived? well, it's i it's kinda hard to really go back because back then in 1991, i was i was super young. right? like, i just got out of college. so i didn't really make that connection back then. mhmm. and we didn't have the internet, so i didn't see all the harmful manipulation that we have now. i just noticed it throughout the years. and then when i i guess when i started working for an it software development company here in germany in february, there were times where i was like, no. i don't wanna email these people because they did not consent. and this was way before the gdpr in 02/2018. right? so it just like, that even felt weird to me. and i also tried i tried so many times with this with my one, with this one company who i worked for for, i wanna say, eleven years. yeah. i tried so hard to bring nature into our branding, and i wasn't able to. and and that kind of upset me, but it's okay. it wasn't my it wasn't my company. so as soon as i got out, i was like, okay. now i could do what i want. and now i can say what i want. and now i can actually, yeah, bring something forward that really makes sense. and it was the first time well, actually, that's not true. i was gonna say it was the first time that i felt good about my job because, you know, as a marketer, you'd like we have a bad rep. right? with totally understandable. but i never worked for a company who did things unethically. i won't say that. like, that's not you know, i i didn't work for big companies and and do all this harm for manipulation. i just saw it externally. but, like, the first job i i had after college was with a, independent record label. so that was fun. that was what i was gonna say. like like, me, my my job is the first time i actually felt like it was purposeful. mhmm. but my first job after college working with vets veterinarians was also very, very, purposeful and fulfilling. it was best job ever. but then working at the record label, that was also that was fun. and, so but in between, there's just a lot of, misalignment, i guess, because i couldn't really do what i felt was necessary or was was was purposeful for me, Speaker 0: i guess. so so you referenced, you know, the the these, i guess, lessons or inspiration that we can get from from nature. and yeah. and i noticed for from your posts and and what you're sharing now, for you, it's may mainly animals. i guess for other people, it can be, you know, it can be plants, trees. people talk a lot about trees. i love trees. also, i just came off a call, in our community called, doing business with the moon. so planets and stars are also part of nature and, you know, the universe. so so yeah. tell us how you kind of, like, draw these parallels between nature and, and business and marketing. Speaker 1: yeah. i, i do spend a lot of time in nature and i observe, and i communicate. i communicate with trees. i communicate with wild animals, my pets as well, but you know, that's something different. like everybody communicates with their pets, but, this real connection piece. and, so like, okay, let's say this week we have a new moon in cancer. and so i was i i work with oracle cards. i work with, spirit animals, and my totem animal, which is elk. but this week i was, you know, asking asking animals, okay, who wants to guide us this week of this new moon? new moon, new beginnings, it's always exciting. and hyena came up. and like, i'm getting chills right now because when you think of hyena, you think, okay, they're schemy, there's something weird about them. they have a weird posture. they kind of laugh at you. you know, they're bottomless. Speaker 0: they're like the mean guys in the they're the mean guys. Speaker 1: yeah. exactly. exactly. but when you really learn about them, you're like, wow. so so what happens is that, like, they are a resourceful strategist, and they're deeply misunderstood, like we just said. like and that kind of, like, makes me think of people of my network. we're all working in the climate and the ecospace. we're trying to inspire people to respect nature and we are nature. we are all connected. we are animals and, we are not here on earth to destroy. and so, and i'm also vegan. so like, there's a lot of misunderstanding with veganism and basically why? because the narrative that we have been giving as a collective is doom and gloom, is blame and shame, and that doesn't inspire anybody to act. so it's it's like so coming back to the hyena, like, she's very matriarchal. she has an energy that we need in today's corporate, corrupt world, actually. like, she's also a team player. they hunt more efficiently than lions. i mean, male lions don't hunt at all. they just sleep, eat, and fornicate. but, but like hyenas, they they actually work together and they don't waste anything. you know, they are scavengers, but 70% i just read this yesterday. 70% of their of what they eat are from hunting, which i didn't know, which is more efficient than than than lions. so i thought they scavenged more than than hunted, but that's actually not true. so, basically like her energy and i say her because it is a feminine energy. so she does not waste time. she does not waste money. she does not waste energy, like, and on on things that don't matter. so, she also tells us to, like, know our worth and to lead quietly, but move strategically. and so these these learnings, really, really help me and i'm hoping that they're helping people who read what i've been writing because i write this, like, every monday now. i've just started this month of doing that, and, and it seems like people are really enjoying it. i'm trying not to get too woo at this point in time, but i will at some point. i will move more into the woo. and where are you sharing this? on linkedin. Speaker 0: okay. i only do people need to follow you on linkedin to Speaker 1: see this part? yes. please do. i would love to connect. so yeah, so it's like, it could also be something as simple as, you know, hey. it's because people have asked me, should i should i go on tiktok? and i'm like, well, are your clients there? no. okay. that kind of answers your question. right? so so when people, like, get in that sort of desperation mode, like, i want it it's not working. i gotta try this. i gotta try this, this, this, and this, and they move from one tactic to the to another looking at people who look, successful online, it's only gonna take them away from their real path. and so hyena and so many other animals, like, have this strategic, energy to them. like, follow the path, and you will make mistakes. you will fail a million times. but if you keep on doing that refining and refining and not jumping from one thing to the next, you'll get there. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. i love that. so so you you chose or the the hyena sounds like almost chose you because of the new moon in cancer. and so, but you said you're doing this now every monday, so it's not always at the new moon. it's just like every monday you you pick a new or the new animal picks you. Speaker 1: right. and i used to do this, like, daily for myself, and i used to also offer animal spirit guide readings. and i used to do, like, videos and stuff like that and and also go along with the moon. so every two Speaker 0: weeks, i was, Speaker 1: yeah, talking about, like, also, like, conservation of the animal that chose me because i i never i never pull cards. like, i just, like, yeah, ask my questions and then one flips out. it's like me. sometimes it happens right away. sometimes it takes, like, a minute or so. but mhmm. Speaker 0: yeah. i think it's just so good for us to even, yeah, know more about this wide animal world and, yeah, beyond animals. right? plants. i mean yeah. in this, book that i love by, not a book, but it's a collection, from rob hopkins called the ministry of imagination. Speaker 1: mhmm. Speaker 0: and and he asked, all his podcast guests to be the minister of imagination. and so there's the the this book is basically a collection of ideas for the future. and one of these ideas, the reason i bring it up here was this guy, i think it was a guy who is like, we should invent glasses that tell us and, like, when we put them on, it will show us, you know, like, high in, like, holiographically, what the the information is on the plant, the animal, give it its name. so not just our the botanical name, but it's like, hey, this is jessica. you know, it's like, give it a name so that we can relate to to, yeah, nature in that way and really feel like we're one. and i i just love that idea. i like Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: put a big heart around it. yeah. so, yeah, i i love that you're sharing those on on linkedin. i need to make sure i i hit the bell so that i, oh, i keep seeing them. yeah. so so you mentioned, yeah, you're not going to go too much into the who just yet. but linkedin is still kind of the network where people are like, oh, this is, you know, can we put this there? you were working with companies, organizations on this idea of marketing by nature. so and especially in tourism. right? so how do you feel the readiness there? like, are are though yeah. has and have things changed? is it more in the zeitgeist now? Speaker 1: yeah. i mean, i still have a lot to do in that realm. like, i also feel the energy of the person that i'm working with, the company that i'm working with. and i can usually tell how much i can, how far i can go. so i kinda i kind of adapt. i i call myself a chameleon sometimes because i i do adapt to the other person's energy. and i've noticed, like, i also work with freelance creatives. so the designers, the, the copywriters, the filmmakers, those people who are actually able to shift perspectives with their words, with their designs, with their films. and, i find that they are very open to lulu, to, the spiritual aspect, to connecting with nature and, and really learning more about that aspect. and because i also say, like like, running a business, especially if it's just you, if you're like a solopreneur or even if you just have a few employees or independent contractors. like, it's like 95% personal development. i don't know if that's really true. that's just the way it feels and the way, you know, i've experienced it with my my clients and and my network. because your stuff will come up, every with every launch, with every campaign, with every, sales call, whatever it is, your stuff comes up. you procrastinate, you perfect, you get fomo. everybody goes through imposter syndrome. everybody. so we have so many multi layers of ego to sort through that animals and plants that the other natural world, like, don't deal with. and i, you know, i use this as a reminder as well. i'm like, just go out there and observe. like, they don't get in their heads. they just do. you know? they just they just go and do it. just do it. and, you know, especially when it comes to perfectionism. so, you know, like, my clients are, like, about ready to to launch or whatever, and then they they start feeling that fomo coming on and or not the fomo, the, imposter syndrome and and just the the fear of, you know, rejection and stuff like that, from those sales calls and also putting something out there that's not a 100% perfect. because, like, if you if you build a course or if you put out any kind of an offer and it's a new one, you you kinda have to you know, you can't put it out when it's completely done because you need that client feedback. you need to cocreate it with your clients. otherwise, you risk putting something out there and nobody wants it. so this is how software develop software is developed. right? they co create it with their clients. and, so it was it takes a lot to take that step and put something out there that's half baked, that's not finished. and so that is a true sign that, you know, if you can do that, then that's like, wow. okay. you have handled perfectionism. you may not have overcome it yet, but that's, you know, that's a true sign. and and the way to get there is to just do it and, and not think about it. so that's how i also bring in nature. i'm just like, you know, just just observe. they don't they don't do all this stuff that we do. keeps them stuck. they just go and do it. Speaker 0: that's so true. yeah. and and there's also cycles, right, in nature. exactly. that are, yeah, not always about being out there and and, you know, launching every day or or closing every day. but there's, yeah, there's wintering and and, you know, there's the dark moon and, like, yeah, in nature, it's just so normal that there's rest included. we feel like, no, rest is not part of not part of business for sure. Speaker 1: exactly. yeah. what am i doing? Speaker 0: so what kind of daily practices do you have? obviously, you go outside, i assume, and then you have the the the card. any anything i see you have plants in your office. i think that's the the no brainer. right? it's like yeah. of course, you have to have plants. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. i don't have as many plants in my house as i used to just because, yeah. i don't know. i guess i moved, and and they had to stay where they were. but i also have a garden. so, so, yeah, as far as, like, routines, i used to do yoga and meditation every single morning, and this year, i haven't. just because this year has been very busy. and, you know, when you're not the first person who has asked me this this year, and and i keep on coming back to it. i need to implement that back into my routine, but not in the mornings because i i'm now spending a lot of time outside with my dog and and and just, like, connecting with nature before i start my day that when i come back, i'm like, okay. now i can start working. now i can be creative. and, whereas before i was doing i was doing both, but it was it was kinda draining because i would start my day really late. so i do wanna implement that back, but maybe, like, midday or something like that. so that thank you for asking that because it's just i i yeah. it's something that i i wanna be very intentional about, and and it's something that i really wanna bring back. yeah. Speaker 0: it is it is a shift when we do really want to, you know, be more embodied. so that means doing something physical. yeah, i do yoga every day. i i am the person who does yoga every day. right? i just decided that that's part of my day. and so when i don't do it, then, yeah, i'm missing it. it's much easier to just decide i am the person who does yoga every day than think every day. should i do it today or should i not? so it's just like, no, this part of my day. but then, yes, you all i also wanna be the person who goes outside every day. right? and then what i notice and the reason i'm talking about, you know, doing business like we're human, well, an eight hour workday is just not human to me anymore because we want to make sure that we do all these other things that are much more important than what we think is important, which is sitting on our computers and, you know, being effective or efficient. so so, yeah, in a way, it's it's this concept of time that we also need to shift and say, well, being in nature takes time. doing yoga takes time, but it's time that i value more than, you know, the work. and that's a big shift for a lot of people also because, of course, the money that's attached to the work. right? and we we are living in a society that still yeah. there's no universal income. and so we have to work to make a living. and oftentimes, like, if you're in a corporate job, you can't just say, oh, i'm i only wanna work six hours per day. right? it's like, no. that's standard forty two hours per week, which is so sad. like, it makes me so angry. so yeah. it it really and the thing is that even if we are entrepreneurs and and we feel like, okay, we want wanted to leave the corporate life behind. like you said, 95% is personal development. and so if we don't change that perspective and mindset that we are just here to work eight hours or probably as entrepreneurs ten hours per day, then we think we went for the freedom, but we just lock ourselves into another box that we create, which then we talk about, oh, i wanna connect with nature, but we don't make it a priority. right? yeah. so, yeah, it it really there's a lot attached to it. it's not just a nice thing to say that we now everybody wants to talk about reconnecting with nature. we actually have to make it a priority and make time for it. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. and it's so interesting because some like, sometimes when it happens to me, like, just spontaneously, like, i don't look for it. it just happens. like, the other week, it was a really bad week. it was the end of, like, the june, the may. it was just really, really bad for several reasons. and so i was walking my dog. her name is nala, chocolate lab. and we were just walking, you know, in one of the normal routes that we go, 06:30 in the morning really early. and, all of a sudden, like, there were three families of geese, on the other side of the river, and then one family was in the in the water. so the babies are starting to get really big right right now, but they're still kind of fluffy. and these are canadian geese, by the way, in germany. but, yeah, we have them. and and then all of a sudden, you know, they they see me and one the papa, one of the one of the males goes into the water, and then his family starts coming. and then the other ones and then the other ones. so all three on the other side came into the water. they all came to us. my dog was like, just eating the grass along the side, but they just swam to us and started like bobbing their head and honking. not loudly, not aggressively, just like occasional honking and bobbing their heads. and i was like, wow, are you here just to say hi, thank you? like, i was just, you know, like communicating with them and it felt so good. and then afterwards i looked it up and i was like, wow, they were, they were excited to see me and nala, but primore me because, you know, nala's a threat. but, but nala was so calm and and they were just, like, saying, we see you. we you're one of us. they like, it is a bonding act of them to bob their heads like that and to to honk and all four families. like, it was it was amazing. and i've seen them a couple of times since. like, i used to see them, like, like, twice a week, but now they're kind of staying out of the water. they're moving onto the grass, onto the fields. and, yeah, and we don't feed them there, so this was not about food. but it was just such a such a, like, such a moment that the next time that i went, when i saw them, i just sat down and they were all just in the water, but also, like, bobbing their heads. they weren't honking. they weren't as excited as before, but they were just kind of staying there and i just, like stayed there and sat with them. but this kind of stuff like happens every now and then. but when i seek it, it's not there. if that makes sense. like you just have to have like an open mind and just say, okay, whatever comes comes, you know, even if nothing comes, then it's also okay. yeah. anyway. Speaker 0: yeah. but but but, again, it wouldn't have happened had you just been depressed and just stayed in bed. right? exactly. you had to make the time to make it happen. exactly. yeah. Speaker 1: that just, like, made my month. i was like, okay, i'm good. i'm good now. Speaker 0: yeah. it's it's like this, this confirmation that nature is perfect and we're all one. right? that's what this message was for. yeah. so definitely. yeah. so so as we're wrapping up here, what would you tell listeners who, you know, maybe they live in new york. i always think about new york city or or just like any city. i was just, in padova, which is the city next to venice. and it's, you know, it's a city. it's a beautiful city, obviously, very old, but it's a city. and there's, you know, there's there's concrete and there's, you know, there's rocks. yes. but, you know, it's still hot and there's not much nature. so what would you tell people who live in a city or listening? how do you connect with nature? Speaker 1: yeah. i i come from long island, by the way, in new york. so, and i now found my utopia. it took a long time, but i lived in atlanta too, so i totally get that. i can't live in a city right now, anymore. i don't think, there's nature is everywhere. like i said, we are nature too. so, you know, even a pigeon, like, i've connected with pigeons before. they're, you know, plants, trees. they're there. there are, you know, city parks and stuff like that. and it's not like, you know, you have to go and hunt a tree or whatever. like, there there is kind of a ritual with trees because they're very wise and they're very, you do have to respect their their presence. so i do ask for permission before i connect, especially with trees. animals just seem to do it anyway. so it's not a problem. but, so i guess, like, my advice would be just just go outside and observe. breathe in the air. hopefully, it'll be clean. go anywhere where you can go where there is a little green, or even if you just have some plants on your balcony or in your home or whatever. also like the spiders in your house. my goodness. people just vacuum those up as if they were garbage. like, spiders are welcome in my house until they get to a certain size. and then and then i'm like, okay. sorry, but i have to transport you outside. and then i do. i carefully, you know, pick them up in a jar and stuff and then, you know, walk away, walk outside with them. but, you know, just be respectful, of of all creatures except maybe mosquitoes, like or ticks or anything like that on your dogs. like, i totally get that. but there's just so much that you can do. and, like, if you're at your desk hustling at work, which is what we all do, that's not good for our brains. that's not good for our bodies. so if we just get up and just take a walk, like during lunch breaks, i used to eat lunch at my desk. like, how sick is that? and i know a lot of people still do. get outside. go outside. take a walk around the block. you will see there often there's, like, one sprout of of of life coming up from, you know, the concrete walls or something. and you're like, wow. yeah. there's always something like sit in silence, look around you, feel the wind on your on your face, breathe in the air, be thankful that that you're alive and, that you're okay and that you are part of nature. like, there's so many solutions in nature too that that we don't need all of our machinery and all this stuff that we're trying to trying to do. Speaker 0: i was just thinking as you're as you're talking, it's like it's so true. right? i probably live very similarly as as you. like, i have access to a forest and a and a river and, you know, a lake. so, yes, i'm very privileged like that. at the same time, i think if you're in a city, you're paying probably even closer attention to the small flower that, you know, grows through a crack like you just said. and it just kind of almost gives you this bigger moment of awe because you're like, how could this be that, you know, right here, you're yeah. there's so much power in that where where for us, it's like, oh, sometimes it's just like, oh, it's right there. so you have to be more aware, and and pay attention to it. yeah. yeah. yeah. wonderful. well, thank you so much for inspiring us. and and, yeah, i highly recommend people follow you on on linkedin. where else can they find you to get to know you a bit more? Speaker 1: i guess my website. so that's ethicalbrandmarketing.com. but, yeah, i'm only i am visible. i'm present on every every other channel. like, i do have a presence, but i just like, a couple of years ago, i was like, nope. gonna concentrate on where everybody where my audience is, and that's that's linkedin. so yeah. just jessica lohmann. easy to find. easy to find. yeah. thank you. a couple Speaker 0: of questions for you. yeah. we'll record those separately. so we'll close here, and then we'll see each other again. but thanks so much for being on the show. thank you. and, yeah. well, who knows? maybe we'll cross paths one in in real life. yeah. i'm sure we we're neighbors. that's true. thanks, jessica. thank you, sarah.

In this inspiring episode, I'm joined by Jessica Lohmann to explore how nature can guide us back to more meaningful, ethical ways of doing business. We talk about Jessica's journey from corporate marketing to founding Marketing by Nature and Ethical Brand Marketing, and how reconnecting with nature — and ourselves — can shift not just our business practices, but our entire mindset. From animal wisdom to simple daily rituals, Jessica shows how observing and honoring the natural world can bring more flow, purpose, and integrity into the way we work. In this episode we talked about: How Jessica's frustration with harmful, manipulative marketing led her to create Marketing by Nature and Ethical Brand Marketing The connection between our disconnection from nature and many societal problems How nature — especially animals — can inspire our business and marketing practices The role of spirit animals and how Jessica uses animal wisdom (like the misunderstood hyena) to guide her marketing and business decisions Daily practices to reconnect with nature, from simply walking outside to using oracle cards and observing animals The shift in mindset needed to make time for nature, embodiment, and rest — even as entrepreneurs Watch this episode on YouTube -- Speaker 0: hey, jessica. how are you? hello? i'm fine. how are you? yes, i'm good. hot, but good. yeah. same there. yeah, really looking forward to this, to this commerce conversation around marketing and nature. it's funny, it's like probably a year and a half or so that it comes up all the time, this topic of nature. and so when i started to see your linkedin posts, i'm like, yeah, she's someone i want to talk to on the podcast. so here we are. yeah. welcome. you have a program called marketing by nature. right. you have a business. remind me of the name of the business. ethical brand marketing. right. okay. so we have the ethical in common as well. but what really got my attention was the marketing by nature. so, yeah, tell us more about how this became your focus. Speaker 1: yeah. well, i do have a marketing degree. so i got that in 1991, and i worked in corporate, you know, for a long time and and moved to germany in 1995, so pretty early in my career. and i just watched because i graduated in 1991. we didn't have computers back then. right? like, only a few people did. so i watched how the internet basically increased the harmful manipulation in marketing over the years. and because before, it was just a little, like, false advertising. you know, it was still damaging, to some extent, but not to the, yeah, to what we have today. so it basically grew out of my frustration, of how marketing has been abused over the years. and also, like, with the nature part, because i'm very connected with nature, i've always, you know, we we went camping when i was young. i worked for veterinarians during high school and college. so i've always had this connection with animals. and, and i truly believe that the root cause of all our societal problems is our complete disconnect from nature. and there are people who will tell you, like, when that happened. it started when we start started, wearing shoes with rubber soles and, you know, those are kind of, yeah, i'm not really sure, but the industrial revolution definitely, helped with that disconnect. and so what i feel is that if we connect with nature, we are completely different people. like we actually find ourselves again and we respect ourselves. we don't criticize ourselves. we find love and also with other people and it just, yeah. so i just also feel, which i'm sure we'll talk about, throughout this conversation, how nature can really inspire us, how other species can inspire us, and also how we how we're all connected and how we can work together, to, yeah, to solve these super wicked problems that we've caused as one species. Speaker 0: so yeah. do you feel like like you said, you you've been, you know, super interested in this since 1991, which probably a lot of listeners, including i mean, including myself in 1991. yeah. nature was just this thing that we, you know, spent some leisure time in, but it wasn't yet we, there was no talk yet about reconnecting with nature. that is to me at least fairly recent. so did you all these years, because i, i know for humane marketing, the, the, this idea of, you know, doing marketing in a different way. for me, it started in 02/2006. right. which is like later much later than 1991. and even so, from 2006 till actually, no. not not even 02/2006. that's when i started my first business. it's more like 02/2018, i started talking about gentle marketing. and so for all this time, i felt like very alone talking about doing marketing differently. so i cannot imagine how you must have felt all these years. yeah. talking about connecting with nature and and how this relates to marketing. is this a story that i'm just telling myself or is this the Speaker 1: story that you lived? well, it's i it's kinda hard to really go back because back then in 1991, i was i was super young. right? like, i just got out of college. so i didn't really make that connection back then. mhmm. and we didn't have the internet, so i didn't see all the harmful manipulation that we have now. i just noticed it throughout the years. and then when i i guess when i started working for an it software development company here in germany in february, there were times where i was like, no. i don't wanna email these people because they did not consent. and this was way before the gdpr in 02/2018. right? so it just like, that even felt weird to me. and i also tried i tried so many times with this with my one, with this one company who i worked for for, i wanna say, eleven years. yeah. i tried so hard to bring nature into our branding, and i wasn't able to. and and that kind of upset me, but it's okay. it wasn't my it wasn't my company. so as soon as i got out, i was like, okay. now i could do what i want. and now i can say what i want. and now i can actually, yeah, bring something forward that really makes sense. and it was the first time well, actually, that's not true. i was gonna say it was the first time that i felt good about my job because, you know, as a marketer, you'd like we have a bad rep. right? with totally understandable. but i never worked for a company who did things unethically. i won't say that. like, that's not you know, i i didn't work for big companies and and do all this harm for manipulation. i just saw it externally. but, like, the first job i i had after college was with a, independent record label. so that was fun. that was what i was gonna say. like like, me, my my job is the first time i actually felt like it was purposeful. mhmm. but my first job after college working with vets veterinarians was also very, very, purposeful and fulfilling. it was best job ever. but then working at the record label, that was also that was fun. and, so but in between, there's just a lot of, misalignment, i guess, because i couldn't really do what i felt was necessary or was was was purposeful for me, Speaker 0: i guess. so so you referenced, you know, the the these, i guess, lessons or inspiration that we can get from from nature. and yeah. and i noticed for from your posts and and what you're sharing now, for you, it's may mainly animals. i guess for other people, it can be, you know, it can be plants, trees. people talk a lot about trees. i love trees. also, i just came off a call, in our community called, doing business with the moon. so planets and stars are also part of nature and, you know, the universe. so so yeah. tell us how you kind of, like, draw these parallels between nature and, and business and marketing. Speaker 1: yeah. i, i do spend a lot of time in nature and i observe, and i communicate. i communicate with trees. i communicate with wild animals, my pets as well, but you know, that's something different. like everybody communicates with their pets, but, this real connection piece. and, so like, okay, let's say this week we have a new moon in cancer. and so i was i i work with oracle cards. i work with, spirit animals, and my totem animal, which is elk. but this week i was, you know, asking asking animals, okay, who wants to guide us this week of this new moon? new moon, new beginnings, it's always exciting. and hyena came up. and like, i'm getting chills right now because when you think of hyena, you think, okay, they're schemy, there's something weird about them. they have a weird posture. they kind of laugh at you. you know, they're bottomless. Speaker 0: they're like the mean guys in the they're the mean guys. Speaker 1: yeah. exactly. exactly. but when you really learn about them, you're like, wow. so so what happens is that, like, they are a resourceful strategist, and they're deeply misunderstood, like we just said. like and that kind of, like, makes me think of people of my network. we're all working in the climate and the ecospace. we're trying to inspire people to respect nature and we are nature. we are all connected. we are animals and, we are not here on earth to destroy. and so, and i'm also vegan. so like, there's a lot of misunderstanding with veganism and basically why? because the narrative that we have been giving as a collective is doom and gloom, is blame and shame, and that doesn't inspire anybody to act. so it's it's like so coming back to the hyena, like, she's very matriarchal. she has an energy that we need in today's corporate, corrupt world, actually. like, she's also a team player. they hunt more efficiently than lions. i mean, male lions don't hunt at all. they just sleep, eat, and fornicate. but, but like hyenas, they they actually work together and they don't waste anything. you know, they are scavengers, but 70% i just read this yesterday. 70% of their of what they eat are from hunting, which i didn't know, which is more efficient than than than lions. so i thought they scavenged more than than hunted, but that's actually not true. so, basically like her energy and i say her because it is a feminine energy. so she does not waste time. she does not waste money. she does not waste energy, like, and on on things that don't matter. so, she also tells us to, like, know our worth and to lead quietly, but move strategically. and so these these learnings, really, really help me and i'm hoping that they're helping people who read what i've been writing because i write this, like, every monday now. i've just started this month of doing that, and, and it seems like people are really enjoying it. i'm trying not to get too woo at this point in time, but i will at some point. i will move more into the woo. and where are you sharing this? on linkedin. Speaker 0: okay. i only do people need to follow you on linkedin to Speaker 1: see this part? yes. please do. i would love to connect. so yeah, so it's like, it could also be something as simple as, you know, hey. it's because people have asked me, should i should i go on tiktok? and i'm like, well, are your clients there? no. okay. that kind of answers your question. right? so so when people, like, get in that sort of desperation mode, like, i want it it's not working. i gotta try this. i gotta try this, this, this, and this, and they move from one tactic to the to another looking at people who look, successful online, it's only gonna take them away from their real path. and so hyena and so many other animals, like, have this strategic, energy to them. like, follow the path, and you will make mistakes. you will fail a million times. but if you keep on doing that refining and refining and not jumping from one thing to the next, you'll get there. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. i love that. so so you you chose or the the hyena sounds like almost chose you because of the new moon in cancer. and so, but you said you're doing this now every monday, so it's not always at the new moon. it's just like every monday you you pick a new or the new animal picks you. Speaker 1: right. and i used to do this, like, daily for myself, and i used to also offer animal spirit guide readings. and i used to do, like, videos and stuff like that and and also go along with the moon. so every two Speaker 0: weeks, i was, Speaker 1: yeah, talking about, like, also, like, conservation of the animal that chose me because i i never i never pull cards. like, i just, like, yeah, ask my questions and then one flips out. it's like me. sometimes it happens right away. sometimes it takes, like, a minute or so. but mhmm. Speaker 0: yeah. i think it's just so good for us to even, yeah, know more about this wide animal world and, yeah, beyond animals. right? plants. i mean yeah. in this, book that i love by, not a book, but it's a collection, from rob hopkins called the ministry of imagination. Speaker 1: mhmm. Speaker 0: and and he asked, all his podcast guests to be the minister of imagination. and so there's the the this book is basically a collection of ideas for the future. and one of these ideas, the reason i bring it up here was this guy, i think it was a guy who is like, we should invent glasses that tell us and, like, when we put them on, it will show us, you know, like, high in, like, holiographically, what the the information is on the plant, the animal, give it its name. so not just our the botanical name, but it's like, hey, this is jessica. you know, it's like, give it a name so that we can relate to to, yeah, nature in that way and really feel like we're one. and i i just love that idea. i like Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: put a big heart around it. yeah. so, yeah, i i love that you're sharing those on on linkedin. i need to make sure i i hit the bell so that i, oh, i keep seeing them. yeah. so so you mentioned, yeah, you're not going to go too much into the who just yet. but linkedin is still kind of the network where people are like, oh, this is, you know, can we put this there? you were working with companies, organizations on this idea of marketing by nature. so and especially in tourism. right? so how do you feel the readiness there? like, are are though yeah. has and have things changed? is it more in the zeitgeist now? Speaker 1: yeah. i mean, i still have a lot to do in that realm. like, i also feel the energy of the person that i'm working with, the company that i'm working with. and i can usually tell how much i can, how far i can go. so i kinda i kind of adapt. i i call myself a chameleon sometimes because i i do adapt to the other person's energy. and i've noticed, like, i also work with freelance creatives. so the designers, the, the copywriters, the filmmakers, those people who are actually able to shift perspectives with their words, with their designs, with their films. and, i find that they are very open to lulu, to, the spiritual aspect, to connecting with nature and, and really learning more about that aspect. and because i also say, like like, running a business, especially if it's just you, if you're like a solopreneur or even if you just have a few employees or independent contractors. like, it's like 95% personal development. i don't know if that's really true. that's just the way it feels and the way, you know, i've experienced it with my my clients and and my network. because your stuff will come up, every with every launch, with every campaign, with every, sales call, whatever it is, your stuff comes up. you procrastinate, you perfect, you get fomo. everybody goes through imposter syndrome. everybody. so we have so many multi layers of ego to sort through that animals and plants that the other natural world, like, don't deal with. and i, you know, i use this as a reminder as well. i'm like, just go out there and observe. like, they don't get in their heads. they just do. you know? they just they just go and do it. just do it. and, you know, especially when it comes to perfectionism. so, you know, like, my clients are, like, about ready to to launch or whatever, and then they they start feeling that fomo coming on and or not the fomo, the, imposter syndrome and and just the the fear of, you know, rejection and stuff like that, from those sales calls and also putting something out there that's not a 100% perfect. because, like, if you if you build a course or if you put out any kind of an offer and it's a new one, you you kinda have to you know, you can't put it out when it's completely done because you need that client feedback. you need to cocreate it with your clients. otherwise, you risk putting something out there and nobody wants it. so this is how software develop software is developed. right? they co create it with their clients. and, so it was it takes a lot to take that step and put something out there that's half baked, that's not finished. and so that is a true sign that, you know, if you can do that, then that's like, wow. okay. you have handled perfectionism. you may not have overcome it yet, but that's, you know, that's a true sign. and and the way to get there is to just do it and, and not think about it. so that's how i also bring in nature. i'm just like, you know, just just observe. they don't they don't do all this stuff that we do. keeps them stuck. they just go and do it. Speaker 0: that's so true. yeah. and and there's also cycles, right, in nature. exactly. that are, yeah, not always about being out there and and, you know, launching every day or or closing every day. but there's, yeah, there's wintering and and, you know, there's the dark moon and, like, yeah, in nature, it's just so normal that there's rest included. we feel like, no, rest is not part of not part of business for sure. Speaker 1: exactly. yeah. what am i doing? Speaker 0: so what kind of daily practices do you have? obviously, you go outside, i assume, and then you have the the the card. any anything i see you have plants in your office. i think that's the the no brainer. right? it's like yeah. of course, you have to have plants. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. i don't have as many plants in my house as i used to just because, yeah. i don't know. i guess i moved, and and they had to stay where they were. but i also have a garden. so, so, yeah, as far as, like, routines, i used to do yoga and meditation every single morning, and this year, i haven't. just because this year has been very busy. and, you know, when you're not the first person who has asked me this this year, and and i keep on coming back to it. i need to implement that back into my routine, but not in the mornings because i i'm now spending a lot of time outside with my dog and and and just, like, connecting with nature before i start my day that when i come back, i'm like, okay. now i can start working. now i can be creative. and, whereas before i was doing i was doing both, but it was it was kinda draining because i would start my day really late. so i do wanna implement that back, but maybe, like, midday or something like that. so that thank you for asking that because it's just i i yeah. it's something that i i wanna be very intentional about, and and it's something that i really wanna bring back. yeah. Speaker 0: it is it is a shift when we do really want to, you know, be more embodied. so that means doing something physical. yeah, i do yoga every day. i i am the person who does yoga every day. right? i just decided that that's part of my day. and so when i don't do it, then, yeah, i'm missing it. it's much easier to just decide i am the person who does yoga every day than think every day. should i do it today or should i not? so it's just like, no, this part of my day. but then, yes, you all i also wanna be the person who goes outside every day. right? and then what i notice and the reason i'm talking about, you know, doing business like we're human, well, an eight hour workday is just not human to me anymore because we want to make sure that we do all these other things that are much more important than what we think is important, which is sitting on our computers and, you know, being effective or efficient. so so, yeah, in a way, it's it's this concept of time that we also need to shift and say, well, being in nature takes time. doing yoga takes time, but it's time that i value more than, you know, the work. and that's a big shift for a lot of people also because, of course, the money that's attached to the work. right? and we we are living in a society that still yeah. there's no universal income. and so we have to work to make a living. and oftentimes, like, if you're in a corporate job, you can't just say, oh, i'm i only wanna work six hours per day. right? it's like, no. that's standard forty two hours per week, which is so sad. like, it makes me so angry. so yeah. it it really and the thing is that even if we are entrepreneurs and and we feel like, okay, we want wanted to leave the corporate life behind. like you said, 95% is personal development. and so if we don't change that perspective and mindset that we are just here to work eight hours or probably as entrepreneurs ten hours per day, then we think we went for the freedom, but we just lock ourselves into another box that we create, which then we talk about, oh, i wanna connect with nature, but we don't make it a priority. right? yeah. so, yeah, it it really there's a lot attached to it. it's not just a nice thing to say that we now everybody wants to talk about reconnecting with nature. we actually have to make it a priority and make time for it. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. and it's so interesting because some like, sometimes when it happens to me, like, just spontaneously, like, i don't look for it. it just happens. like, the other week, it was a really bad week. it was the end of, like, the june, the may. it was just really, really bad for several reasons. and so i was walking my dog. her name is nala, chocolate lab. and we were just walking, you know, in one of the normal routes that we go, 06:30 in the morning really early. and, all of a sudden, like, there were three families of geese, on the other side of the river, and then one family was in the in the water. so the babies are starting to get really big right right now, but they're still kind of fluffy. and these are canadian geese, by the way, in germany. but, yeah, we have them. and and then all of a sudden, you know, they they see me and one the papa, one of the one of the males goes into the water, and then his family starts coming. and then the other ones and then the other ones. so all three on the other side came into the water. they all came to us. my dog was like, just eating the grass along the side, but they just swam to us and started like bobbing their head and honking. not loudly, not aggressively, just like occasional honking and bobbing their heads. and i was like, wow, are you here just to say hi, thank you? like, i was just, you know, like communicating with them and it felt so good. and then afterwards i looked it up and i was like, wow, they were, they were excited to see me and nala, but primore me because, you know, nala's a threat. but, but nala was so calm and and they were just, like, saying, we see you. we you're one of us. they like, it is a bonding act of them to bob their heads like that and to to honk and all four families. like, it was it was amazing. and i've seen them a couple of times since. like, i used to see them, like, like, twice a week, but now they're kind of staying out of the water. they're moving onto the grass, onto the fields. and, yeah, and we don't feed them there, so this was not about food. but it was just such a such a, like, such a moment that the next time that i went, when i saw them, i just sat down and they were all just in the water, but also, like, bobbing their heads. they weren't honking. they weren't as excited as before, but they were just kind of staying there and i just, like stayed there and sat with them. but this kind of stuff like happens every now and then. but when i seek it, it's not there. if that makes sense. like you just have to have like an open mind and just say, okay, whatever comes comes, you know, even if nothing comes, then it's also okay. yeah. anyway. Speaker 0: yeah. but but but, again, it wouldn't have happened had you just been depressed and just stayed in bed. right? exactly. you had to make the time to make it happen. exactly. yeah. Speaker 1: that just, like, made my month. i was like, okay, i'm good. i'm good now. Speaker 0: yeah. it's it's like this, this confirmation that nature is perfect and we're all one. right? that's what this message was for. yeah. so definitely. yeah. so so as we're wrapping up here, what would you tell listeners who, you know, maybe they live in new york. i always think about new york city or or just like any city. i was just, in padova, which is the city next to venice. and it's, you know, it's a city. it's a beautiful city, obviously, very old, but it's a city. and there's, you know, there's there's concrete and there's, you know, there's rocks. yes. but, you know, it's still hot and there's not much nature. so what would you tell people who live in a city or listening? how do you connect with nature? Speaker 1: yeah. i i come from long island, by the way, in new york. so, and i now found my utopia. it took a long time, but i lived in atlanta too, so i totally get that. i can't live in a city right now, anymore. i don't think, there's nature is everywhere. like i said, we are nature too. so, you know, even a pigeon, like, i've connected with pigeons before. they're, you know, plants, trees. they're there. there are, you know, city parks and stuff like that. and it's not like, you know, you have to go and hunt a tree or whatever. like, there there is kind of a ritual with trees because they're very wise and they're very, you do have to respect their their presence. so i do ask for permission before i connect, especially with trees. animals just seem to do it anyway. so it's not a problem. but, so i guess, like, my advice would be just just go outside and observe. breathe in the air. hopefully, it'll be clean. go anywhere where you can go where there is a little green, or even if you just have some plants on your balcony or in your home or whatever. also like the spiders in your house. my goodness. people just vacuum those up as if they were garbage. like, spiders are welcome in my house until they get to a certain size. and then and then i'm like, okay. sorry, but i have to transport you outside. and then i do. i carefully, you know, pick them up in a jar and stuff and then, you know, walk away, walk outside with them. but, you know, just be respectful, of of all creatures except maybe mosquitoes, like or ticks or anything like that on your dogs. like, i totally get that. but there's just so much that you can do. and, like, if you're at your desk hustling at work, which is what we all do, that's not good for our brains. that's not good for our bodies. so if we just get up and just take a walk, like during lunch breaks, i used to eat lunch at my desk. like, how sick is that? and i know a lot of people still do. get outside. go outside. take a walk around the block. you will see there often there's, like, one sprout of of of life coming up from, you know, the concrete walls or something. and you're like, wow. yeah. there's always something like sit in silence, look around you, feel the wind on your on your face, breathe in the air, be thankful that that you're alive and, that you're okay and that you are part of nature. like, there's so many solutions in nature too that that we don't need all of our machinery and all this stuff that we're trying to trying to do. Speaker 0: i was just thinking as you're as you're talking, it's like it's so true. right? i probably live very similarly as as you. like, i have access to a forest and a and a river and, you know, a lake. so, yes, i'm very privileged like that. at the same time, i think if you're in a city, you're paying probably even closer attention to the small flower that, you know, grows through a crack like you just said. and it just kind of almost gives you this bigger moment of awe because you're like, how could this be that, you know, right here, you're yeah. there's so much power in that where where for us, it's like, oh, sometimes it's just like, oh, it's right there. so you have to be more aware, and and pay attention to it. yeah. yeah. yeah. wonderful. well, thank you so much for inspiring us. and and, yeah, i highly recommend people follow you on on linkedin. where else can they find you to get to know you a bit more? Speaker 1: i guess my website. so that's ethicalbrandmarketing.com. but, yeah, i'm only i am visible. i'm present on every every other channel. like, i do have a presence, but i just like, a couple of years ago, i was like, nope. gonna concentrate on where everybody where my audience is, and that's that's linkedin. so yeah. just jessica lohmann. easy to find. easy to find. yeah. thank you. a couple Speaker 0: of questions for you. yeah. we'll record those separately. so we'll close here, and then we'll see each other again. but thanks so much for being on the show. thank you. and, yeah. well, who knows? maybe we'll cross paths one in in real life. yeah. i'm sure we we're neighbors. that's true. thanks, jessica. thank you, sarah.

In this inspiring episode, I'm joined by Jessica Lohmann to explore how nature can guide us back to more meaningful, ethical ways of doing business. We talk about Jessica's journey from corporate marketing to founding Marketing by Nature and Ethical Brand Marketing, and how reconnecting with nature — and ourselves — can shift not just our business practices, but our entire mindset. From animal wisdom to simple daily rituals, Jessica shows how observing and honoring the natural world can bring more flow, purpose, and integrity into the way we work. In this episode we talked about: How Jessica's frustration with harmful, manipulative marketing led her to create Marketing by Nature and Ethical Brand Marketing The connection between our disconnection from nature and many societal problems How nature — especially animals — can inspire our business and marketing practices The role of spirit animals and how Jessica uses animal wisdom (like the misunderstood hyena) to guide her marketing and business decisions Daily practices to reconnect with nature, from simply walking outside to using oracle cards and observing animals The shift in mindset needed to make time for nature, embodiment, and rest — even as entrepreneurs Watch this episode on YouTube --   Speaker 0:  hey, jessica. how are you? hello? i'm fine. how are you? yes, i'm good. hot, but good. yeah. same there. yeah, really looking forward to this, to this commerce conversation around marketing and nature. it's funny, it's like probably a year and a half or so that it comes up all the time, this topic of nature. and so when i started to see your linkedin posts, i'm like, yeah, she's someone i want to talk to on the podcast. so here we are. yeah. welcome. you have a program called marketing by nature. right. you have a business. remind me of the name of the business. ethical brand marketing. right. okay. so we have the ethical in common as well. but what really got my attention was the marketing by nature. so, yeah, tell us more about how this became your focus. Speaker 1:  yeah. well, i do have a marketing degree. so i got that in 1991, and i worked in corporate, you know, for a long time and and moved to germany in 1995, so pretty early in my career. and i just watched because i graduated in 1991. we didn't have computers back then. right? like, only a few people did. so i watched how the internet basically increased the harmful manipulation in marketing over the years. and because before, it was just a little, like, false advertising. you know, it was still damaging, to some extent, but not to the, yeah, to what we have today. so it basically grew out of my frustration, of how marketing has been abused over the years. and also, like, with the nature part, because i'm very connected with nature, i've always, you know, we we went camping when i was young. i worked for veterinarians during high school and college. so i've always had this connection with animals. and, and i truly believe that the root cause of all our societal problems is our complete disconnect from nature. and there are people who will tell you, like, when that happened. it started when we start started, wearing shoes with rubber soles and, you know, those are kind of, yeah, i'm not really sure, but the industrial revolution definitely, helped with that disconnect. and so what i feel is that if we connect with nature, we are completely different people. like we actually find ourselves again and we respect ourselves. we don't criticize ourselves. we find love and also with other people and it just, yeah. so i just also feel, which i'm sure we'll talk about, throughout this conversation, how nature can really inspire us, how other species can inspire us, and also how we how we're all connected and how we can work together, to, yeah, to solve these super wicked problems that we've caused as one species. Speaker 0:  so yeah. do you feel like like you said, you you've been, you know, super interested in this since 1991, which probably a lot of listeners, including i mean, including myself in 1991. yeah. nature was just this thing that we, you know, spent some leisure time in, but it wasn't yet we, there was no talk yet about reconnecting with nature. that is to me at least fairly recent. so did you all these years, because i, i know for humane marketing, the, the, this idea of, you know, doing marketing in a different way. for me, it started in 02/2006. right. which is like later much later than 1991. and even so, from 2006 till actually, no. not not even 02/2006. that's when i started my first business. it's more like 02/2018, i started talking about gentle marketing. and so for all this time, i felt like very alone talking about doing marketing differently. so i cannot imagine how you must have felt all these years. yeah. talking about connecting with nature and and how this relates to marketing. is this a story that i'm just telling myself or is this the Speaker 1:  story that you lived? well, it's i it's kinda hard to really go back because back then in 1991, i was i was super young. right? like, i just got out of college. so i didn't really make that connection back then. mhmm. and we didn't have the internet, so i didn't see all the harmful manipulation that we have now. i just noticed it throughout the years. and then when i i guess when i started working for an it software development company here in germany in february, there were times where i was like, no. i don't wanna email these people because they did not consent. and this was way before the gdpr in 02/2018. right? so it just like, that even felt weird to me. and i also tried i tried so many times with this with my one, with this one company who i worked for for, i wanna say, eleven years. yeah. i tried so hard to bring nature into our branding, and i wasn't able to. and and that kind of upset me, but it's okay. it wasn't my it wasn't my company. so as soon as i got out, i was like, okay. now i could do what i want. and now i can say what i want. and now i can actually, yeah, bring something forward that really makes sense. and it was the first time well, actually, that's not true. i was gonna say it was the first time that i felt good about my job because, you know, as a marketer, you'd like we have a bad rep. right? with totally understandable. but i never worked for a company who did things unethically. i won't say that. like, that's not you know, i i didn't work for big companies and and do all this harm for manipulation. i just saw it externally. but, like, the first job i i had after college was with a, independent record label. so that was fun. that was what i was gonna say. like like, me, my my job is the first time i actually felt like it was purposeful. mhmm. but my first job after college working with vets veterinarians was also very, very, purposeful and fulfilling. it was best job ever. but then working at the record label, that was also that was fun. and, so but in between, there's just a lot of, misalignment, i guess, because i couldn't really do what i felt was necessary or was was was purposeful for me, Speaker 0:  i guess. so so you referenced, you know, the the these, i guess, lessons or inspiration that we can get from from nature. and yeah. and i noticed for from your posts and and what you're sharing now, for you, it's may mainly animals. i guess for other people, it can be, you know, it can be plants, trees. people talk a lot about trees. i love trees. also, i just came off a call, in our community called, doing business with the moon. so planets and stars are also part of nature and, you know, the universe. so so yeah. tell us how you kind of, like, draw these parallels between nature and, and business and marketing. Speaker 1:  yeah. i, i do spend a lot of time in nature and i observe, and i communicate. i communicate with trees. i communicate with wild animals, my pets as well, but you know, that's something different. like everybody communicates with their pets, but, this real connection piece. and, so like, okay, let's say this week we have a new moon in cancer. and so i was i i work with oracle cards. i work with, spirit animals, and my totem animal, which is elk. but this week i was, you know, asking asking animals, okay, who wants to guide us this week of this new moon? new moon, new beginnings, it's always exciting. and hyena came up. and like, i'm getting chills right now because when you think of hyena, you think, okay, they're schemy, there's something weird about them. they have a weird posture. they kind of laugh at you. you know, they're bottomless. Speaker 0:  they're like the mean guys in the they're the mean guys. Speaker 1:  yeah. exactly. exactly. but when you really learn about them, you're like, wow. so so what happens is that, like, they are a resourceful strategist, and they're deeply misunderstood, like we just said. like and that kind of, like, makes me think of people of my network. we're all working in the climate and the ecospace. we're trying to inspire people to respect nature and we are nature. we are all connected. we are animals and, we are not here on earth to destroy. and so, and i'm also vegan. so like, there's a lot of misunderstanding with veganism and basically why? because the narrative that we have been giving as a collective is doom and gloom, is blame and shame, and that doesn't inspire anybody to act. so it's it's like so coming back to the hyena, like, she's very matriarchal. she has an energy that we need in today's corporate, corrupt world, actually. like, she's also a team player. they hunt more efficiently than lions. i mean, male lions don't hunt at all. they just sleep, eat, and fornicate. but, but like hyenas, they they actually work together and they don't waste anything. you know, they are scavengers, but 70% i just read this yesterday. 70% of their of what they eat are from hunting, which i didn't know, which is more efficient than than than lions. so i thought they scavenged more than than hunted, but that's actually not true. so, basically like her energy and i say her because it is a feminine energy. so she does not waste time. she does not waste money. she does not waste energy, like, and on on things that don't matter. so, she also tells us to, like, know our worth and to lead quietly, but move strategically. and so these these learnings, really, really help me and i'm hoping that they're helping people who read what i've been writing because i write this, like, every monday now. i've just started this month of doing that, and, and it seems like people are really enjoying it. i'm trying not to get too woo at this point in time, but i will at some point. i will move more into the woo. and where are you sharing this? on linkedin. Speaker 0:  okay. i only do people need to follow you on linkedin to Speaker 1:  see this part? yes. please do. i would love to connect. so yeah, so it's like, it could also be something as simple as, you know, hey. it's because people have asked me, should i should i go on tiktok? and i'm like, well, are your clients there? no. okay. that kind of answers your question. right? so so when people, like, get in that sort of desperation mode, like, i want it it's not working. i gotta try this. i gotta try this, this, this, and this, and they move from one tactic to the to another looking at people who look, successful online, it's only gonna take them away from their real path. and so hyena and so many other animals, like, have this strategic, energy to them. like, follow the path, and you will make mistakes. you will fail a million times. but if you keep on doing that refining and refining and not jumping from one thing to the next, you'll get there. Speaker 0:  mhmm. yeah. i love that. so so you you chose or the the hyena sounds like almost chose you because of the new moon in cancer. and so, but you said you're doing this now every monday, so it's not always at the new moon. it's just like every monday you you pick a new or the new animal picks you. Speaker 1:  right. and i used to do this, like, daily for myself, and i used to also offer animal spirit guide readings. and i used to do, like, videos and stuff like that and and also go along with the moon. so every two Speaker 0:  weeks, i was, Speaker 1:  yeah, talking about, like, also, like, conservation of the animal that chose me because i i never i never pull cards. like, i just, like, yeah, ask my questions and then one flips out. it's like me. sometimes it happens right away. sometimes it takes, like, a minute or so. but mhmm. Speaker 0:  yeah. i think it's just so good for us to even, yeah, know more about this wide animal world and, yeah, beyond animals. right? plants. i mean yeah. in this, book that i love by, not a book, but it's a collection, from rob hopkins called the ministry of imagination. Speaker 1:  mhmm. Speaker 0:  and and he asked, all his podcast guests to be the minister of imagination. and so there's the the this book is basically a collection of ideas for the future. and one of these ideas, the reason i bring it up here was this guy, i think it was a guy who is like, we should invent glasses that tell us and, like, when we put them on, it will show us, you know, like, high in, like, holiographically, what the the information is on the plant, the animal, give it its name. so not just our the botanical name, but it's like, hey, this is jessica. you know, it's like, give it a name so that we can relate to to, yeah, nature in that way and really feel like we're one. and i i just love that idea. i like Speaker 1:  yeah. Speaker 0:  put a big heart around it. yeah. so, yeah, i i love that you're sharing those on on linkedin. i need to make sure i i hit the bell so that i, oh, i keep seeing them. yeah. so so you mentioned, yeah, you're not going to go too much into the who just yet. but linkedin is still kind of the network where people are like, oh, this is, you know, can we put this there? you were working with companies, organizations on this idea of marketing by nature. so and especially in tourism. right? so how do you feel the readiness there? like, are are though yeah. has and have things changed? is it more in the zeitgeist now? Speaker 1:  yeah. i mean, i still have a lot to do in that realm. like, i also feel the energy of the person that i'm working with, the company that i'm working with. and i can usually tell how much i can, how far i can go. so i kinda i kind of adapt. i i call myself a chameleon sometimes because i i do adapt to the other person's energy. and i've noticed, like, i also work with freelance creatives. so the designers, the, the copywriters, the filmmakers, those people who are actually able to shift perspectives with their words, with their designs, with their films. and, i find that they are very open to lulu, to, the spiritual aspect, to connecting with nature and, and really learning more about that aspect. and because i also say, like like, running a business, especially if it's just you, if you're like a solopreneur or even if you just have a few employees or independent contractors. like, it's like 95% personal development. i don't know if that's really true. that's just the way it feels and the way, you know, i've experienced it with my my clients and and my network. because your stuff will come up, every with every launch, with every campaign, with every, sales call, whatever it is, your stuff comes up. you procrastinate, you perfect, you get fomo. everybody goes through imposter syndrome. everybody. so we have so many multi layers of ego to sort through that animals and plants that the other natural world, like, don't deal with. and i, you know, i use this as a reminder as well. i'm like, just go out there and observe. like, they don't get in their heads. they just do. you know? they just they just go and do it. just do it. and, you know, especially when it comes to perfectionism. so, you know, like, my clients are, like, about ready to to launch or whatever, and then they they start feeling that fomo coming on and or not the fomo, the, imposter syndrome and and just the the fear of, you know, rejection and stuff like that, from those sales calls and also putting something out there that's not a 100% perfect. because, like, if you if you build a course or if you put out any kind of an offer and it's a new one, you you kinda have to you know, you can't put it out when it's completely done because you need that client feedback. you need to cocreate it with your clients. otherwise, you risk putting something out there and nobody wants it. so this is how software develop software is developed. right? they co create it with their clients. and, so it was it takes a lot to take that step and put something out there that's half baked, that's not finished. and so that is a true sign that, you know, if you can do that, then that's like, wow. okay. you have handled perfectionism. you may not have overcome it yet, but that's, you know, that's a true sign. and and the way to get there is to just do it and, and not think about it. so that's how i also bring in nature. i'm just like, you know, just just observe. they don't they don't do all this stuff that we do. keeps them stuck. they just go and do it. Speaker 0:  that's so true. yeah. and and there's also cycles, right, in nature. exactly. that are, yeah, not always about being out there and and, you know, launching every day or or closing every day. but there's, yeah, there's wintering and and, you know, there's the dark moon and, like, yeah, in nature, it's just so normal that there's rest included. we feel like, no, rest is not part of not part of business for sure. Speaker 1:  exactly. yeah. what am i doing? Speaker 0:  so what kind of daily practices do you have? obviously, you go outside, i assume, and then you have the the the card. any anything i see you have plants in your office. i think that's the the no brainer. right? it's like yeah. of course, you have to have plants. Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah. i don't have as many plants in my house as i used to just because, yeah. i don't know. i guess i moved, and and they had to stay where they were. but i also have a garden. so, so, yeah, as far as, like, routines, i used to do yoga and meditation every single morning, and this year, i haven't. just because this year has been very busy. and, you know, when you're not the first person who has asked me this this year, and and i keep on coming back to it. i need to implement that back into my routine, but not in the mornings because i i'm now spending a lot of time outside with my dog and and and just, like, connecting with nature before i start my day that when i come back, i'm like, okay. now i can start working. now i can be creative. and, whereas before i was doing i was doing both, but it was it was kinda draining because i would start my day really late. so i do wanna implement that back, but maybe, like, midday or something like that. so that thank you for asking that because it's just i i yeah. it's something that i i wanna be very intentional about, and and it's something that i really wanna bring back. yeah. Speaker 0:  it is it is a shift when we do really want to, you know, be more embodied. so that means doing something physical. yeah, i do yoga every day. i i am the person who does yoga every day. right? i just decided that that's part of my day. and so when i don't do it, then, yeah, i'm missing it. it's much easier to just decide i am the person who does yoga every day than think every day. should i do it today or should i not? so it's just like, no, this part of my day. but then, yes, you all i also wanna be the person who goes outside every day. right? and then what i notice and the reason i'm talking about, you know, doing business like we're human, well, an eight hour workday is just not human to me anymore because we want to make sure that we do all these other things that are much more important than what we think is important, which is sitting on our computers and, you know, being effective or efficient. so so, yeah, in a way, it's it's this concept of time that we also need to shift and say, well, being in nature takes time. doing yoga takes time, but it's time that i value more than, you know, the work. and that's a big shift for a lot of people also because, of course, the money that's attached to the work. right? and we we are living in a society that still yeah. there's no universal income. and so we have to work to make a living. and oftentimes, like, if you're in a corporate job, you can't just say, oh, i'm i only wanna work six hours per day. right? it's like, no. that's standard forty two hours per week, which is so sad. like, it makes me so angry. so yeah. it it really and the thing is that even if we are entrepreneurs and and we feel like, okay, we want wanted to leave the corporate life behind. like you said, 95% is personal development. and so if we don't change that perspective and mindset that we are just here to work eight hours or probably as entrepreneurs ten hours per day, then we think we went for the freedom, but we just lock ourselves into another box that we create, which then we talk about, oh, i wanna connect with nature, but we don't make it a priority. right? yeah. so, yeah, it it really there's a lot attached to it. it's not just a nice thing to say that we now everybody wants to talk about reconnecting with nature. we actually have to make it a priority and make time for it. Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah. and it's so interesting because some like, sometimes when it happens to me, like, just spontaneously, like, i don't look for it. it just happens. like, the other week, it was a really bad week. it was the end of, like, the june, the may. it was just really, really bad for several reasons. and so i was walking my dog. her name is nala, chocolate lab. and we were just walking, you know, in one of the normal routes that we go, 06:30 in the morning really early. and, all of a sudden, like, there were three families of geese, on the other side of the river, and then one family was in the in the water. so the babies are starting to get really big right right now, but they're still kind of fluffy. and these are canadian geese, by the way, in germany. but, yeah, we have them. and and then all of a sudden, you know, they they see me and one the papa, one of the one of the males goes into the water, and then his family starts coming. and then the other ones and then the other ones. so all three on the other side came into the water. they all came to us. my dog was like, just eating the grass along the side, but they just swam to us and started like bobbing their head and honking. not loudly, not aggressively, just like occasional honking and bobbing their heads. and i was like, wow, are you here just to say hi, thank you? like, i was just, you know, like communicating with them and it felt so good. and then afterwards i looked it up and i was like, wow, they were, they were excited to see me and nala, but primore me because, you know, nala's a threat. but, but nala was so calm and and they were just, like, saying, we see you. we you're one of us. they like, it is a bonding act of them to bob their heads like that and to to honk and all four families. like, it was it was amazing. and i've seen them a couple of times since. like, i used to see them, like, like, twice a week, but now they're kind of staying out of the water. they're moving onto the grass, onto the fields. and, yeah, and we don't feed them there, so this was not about food. but it was just such a such a, like, such a moment that the next time that i went, when i saw them, i just sat down and they were all just in the water, but also, like, bobbing their heads. they weren't honking. they weren't as excited as before, but they were just kind of staying there and i just, like stayed there and sat with them. but this kind of stuff like happens every now and then. but when i seek it, it's not there. if that makes sense. like you just have to have like an open mind and just say, okay, whatever comes comes, you know, even if nothing comes, then it's also okay. yeah. anyway. Speaker 0:  yeah. but but but, again, it wouldn't have happened had you just been depressed and just stayed in bed. right? exactly. you had to make the time to make it happen. exactly. yeah. Speaker 1:  that just, like, made my month. i was like, okay, i'm good. i'm good now. Speaker 0:  yeah. it's it's like this, this confirmation that nature is perfect and we're all one. right? that's what this message was for. yeah. so definitely. yeah. so so as we're wrapping up here, what would you tell listeners who, you know, maybe they live in new york. i always think about new york city or or just like any city. i was just, in padova, which is the city next to venice. and it's, you know, it's a city. it's a beautiful city, obviously, very old, but it's a city. and there's, you know, there's there's concrete and there's, you know, there's rocks. yes. but, you know, it's still hot and there's not much nature. so what would you tell people who live in a city or listening? how do you connect with nature? Speaker 1:  yeah. i i come from long island, by the way, in new york. so, and i now found my utopia. it took a long time, but i lived in atlanta too, so i totally get that. i can't live in a city right now, anymore. i don't think, there's nature is everywhere. like i said, we are nature too. so, you know, even a pigeon, like, i've connected with pigeons before. they're, you know, plants, trees. they're there. there are, you know, city parks and stuff like that. and it's not like, you know, you have to go and hunt a tree or whatever. like, there there is kind of a ritual with trees because they're very wise and they're very, you do have to respect their their presence. so i do ask for permission before i connect, especially with trees. animals just seem to do it anyway. so it's not a problem. but, so i guess, like, my advice would be just just go outside and observe. breathe in the air. hopefully, it'll be clean. go anywhere where you can go where there is a little green, or even if you just have some plants on your balcony or in your home or whatever. also like the spiders in your house. my goodness. people just vacuum those up as if they were garbage. like, spiders are welcome in my house until they get to a certain size. and then and then i'm like, okay. sorry, but i have to transport you outside. and then i do. i carefully, you know, pick them up in a jar and stuff and then, you know, walk away, walk outside with them. but, you know, just be respectful, of of all creatures except maybe mosquitoes, like or ticks or anything like that on your dogs. like, i totally get that. but there's just so much that you can do. and, like, if you're at your desk hustling at work, which is what we all do, that's not good for our brains. that's not good for our bodies. so if we just get up and just take a walk, like during lunch breaks, i used to eat lunch at my desk. like, how sick is that? and i know a lot of people still do. get outside. go outside. take a walk around the block. you will see there often there's, like, one sprout of of of life coming up from, you know, the concrete walls or something. and you're like, wow. yeah. there's always something like sit in silence, look around you, feel the wind on your on your face, breathe in the air, be thankful that that you're alive and, that you're okay and that you are part of nature. like, there's so many solutions in nature too that that we don't need all of our machinery and all this stuff that we're trying to trying to do. Speaker 0:  i was just thinking as you're as you're talking, it's like it's so true. right? i probably live very similarly as as you. like, i have access to a forest and a and a river and, you know, a lake. so, yes, i'm very privileged like that. at the same time, i think if you're in a city, you're paying probably even closer attention to the small flower that, you know, grows through a crack like you just said. and it just kind of almost gives you this bigger moment of awe because you're like, how could this be that, you know, right here, you're yeah. there's so much power in that where where for us, it's like, oh, sometimes it's just like, oh, it's right there. so you have to be more aware, and and pay attention to it. yeah. yeah. yeah. wonderful. well, thank you so much for inspiring us. and and, yeah, i highly recommend people follow you on on linkedin. where else can they find you to get to know you a bit more? Speaker 1:  i guess my website. so that's ethicalbrandmarketing.com. but, yeah, i'm only i am visible. i'm present on every every other channel. like, i do have a presence, but i just like, a couple of years ago, i was like, nope. gonna concentrate on where everybody where my audience is, and that's that's linkedin. so yeah. just jessica lohmann. easy to find. easy to find. yeah. thank you. a couple Speaker 0:  of questions for you. yeah. we'll record those separately. so we'll close here, and then we'll see each other again. but thanks so much for being on the show. thank you. and, yeah. well, who knows? maybe we'll cross paths one in in real life. yeah. i'm sure we we're neighbors. that's true. thanks, jessica. thank you, sarah.