Podcasts about 7ps

This is the 4th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the resources or workbooks of the program, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. >> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 4th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the resources or workbooks of the program, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. >> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 3rd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about each module in detail, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 3rd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about each module in detail, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 2nd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the pivotal moments of the program I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 2nd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the pivotal moments of the program I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

I'm kicking off another little series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

I'm kicking off another little series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

In this episode of the podcast, we continue our series on the 7Ps of Business for Christian coaches. We dive into the fourth P—'Particulars'—which focuses on tracking key performance indicators (KPIs) and other impactful numbers to help grow your coaching business. We discuss the importance of measuring details, and how these metrics tell the story of your business. We offer practical advice on setting up a simple scorecard to keep track of these particulars, the benefits of measuring performance, and tips for getting started with tracking your business metrics. Whether you're a solopreneur or have a growing team, these strategies will help you manage and grow your business more effectively.TIME STAMPS:00:00 Welcome 00:54 Introduction to the Seven Ps of Business01:54 Diving into the Particulars04:03 Tracking and Measuring Success06:26 Building and Using a Scorecard10:13 Steps to Effective Tracking23:41 Connecting and Reflecting24:33 Conclusion and Next StepsDOWNLOAD PODCAST RESOURCE:therealifeprocess.com/sevenFREE RESOURCES:Take the FREE Intro to Needs & Values AssessmentReady to discover what uniquely matters to YOU? CLICK HERE to take our FREE Intro to the Needs & Values Assessment.FREE Download: 4 Steps to Simplify Your CalendarReady to uncover more time on your calendar? This FREE download will help you remove what doesn't matter, so you have space for what does. Click here to get this FREE resource!OTHER RESOURCES:Join the REALIFE Practice Membership!The REALIFE Practice Membership is designed for those who want to grow spiritually, but feel like REALIFE is getting in the way. We'll learn how to integrate meaningful spiritual practices and tools into our daily lives through live group calls, group coaching, training videos, downloadable resources, and an interactive community. Visit www.therealifeprocess.com/membership to join us today!Check out our YouTube Channel!Prefer to watch AND listen? Check out our YouTube channel for the podcast episode on video! Make sure to subscribe so you get all the latest updates.My Book LinkMy new book, Do What Matters, is available NOW! Banish busyness and discover a new way of being productive around what truly matters. Learn more at DoWhatMattersBook.com.LifeMapping ToolsWould you life to discover  Life Mapping tools to help you recognize and respond to God in your Story. Check out these tools here https://www.onelifemaps.com/JOIN OUR COMMUNITY & CONNECT WITH ME:Become part of the FREE REALIFE Process® Community! Connect with Teresa and other podcast listeners, plus find additional content to help you discover your best REALIFE.Connect with your host, Teresa McCloy, on:Facebook - The REALIFE Process® with Teresa McCloyInstagram - teresa.mccloyLinkedIn - teresamccloyAbout Teresa McCloy:Teresa McCloy is the founder and creator of the REALIFE Process®, a framework designed to empower individuals and groups with the tools, training, and community needed for personal and professional growth. Through the REALIFE Process®, Teresa is on a mission to help others grow in self-awareness, establish sustainable rhythms, and enhance their influence and impact by integrating faith and work into their everyday lives. She lives with her husband of 42 years on their 5th generation family farm in central Illinois and enjoys great coffee, growing beautiful flower gardens and traveling as much as possible. About Erica Vinson:Erica Vinson helps clients walk through defining moments with confidence and courage enabling them to move forward in freedom and embrace fearless living. As an ACC Credentialed and Certified Professional Life & Leadership Coach, she uses wisdom from all 3 Centers of Intelligence to help clients gain deeper self-awareness and grow in relationships with others both personally and professionally. Erica is a certified REALIFE Process® Master Coach, an ©iEnneagram Motions of the Soul Practitioner, and has a certificate in Spiritual Transformation through the Transforming Center. She lives in the Metro East St. Louis area and enjoys spending quality time with friends and family, golfing, tennis, boating/water skiing, traveling, is a bit of a technology nerd and loves learning!

Thinking of starting your own business? Whether it's for freedom, profits, or making an impact, success begins with clarity and preparation. In this week's episode of the I Hate Numbers podcast, we explore how to start with success in mind—and avoid the common pitfalls that derail so many new businesses. Drawing from decades of real-world experience, Mahmood shares what it really takes to build a sustainable, profitable business—from defining your "why" to knowing your numbers. Main Topics & Discussion Know Your "Why" Your "why" is the foundation of your business. It's your motivation and direction. Whether it's freedom, profit, social impact, or personal pride—clarity here keeps you focused when challenges arise. Define Success On Your Terms Success looks different for everyone. Is it financial freedom, more time, job creation, or personal fulfilment? Define what success means to you—and how you'll know when you've arrived. Set SMART Goals & KPIs Vague goals like "get more clients" don't cut it. Use SMART goals (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, Time-bound) to set clear targets. Track progress with KPIs like: Income and profit targets Website traffic and conversions Client retention and churn rates Understand Your Customer Business success depends on knowing your customer. Who are they? What problems do they have? How does your product or service solve them? Remember the 7Ps of Marketing: Product, Price, Promotion, Place, Packaging, Positioning, People Know Your Numbers Numbers are your business compass. Get comfortable with: Digital bookkeeping (cloud accounting recommended) Budgets and cash flow forecasts Profit targets and pricing strategies Good financial systems reduce stress and support smarter decisions. Leadership & Mindset Matter Starting a business is tough. Expect good days and bad. Success requires resilience, consistent action, and continuous learning. Good leadership is about making decisions, learning from mistakes, and staying focused. Real-World Example Mahmood reflects on starting his own business 30 years ago—from a back bedroom to building I Hate Numbers. The lessons? Clarity, systems, knowing your numbers, and staying focused on your "why". Links Mentioned in This Episode

En este episodio especial sobre longevidad charlo con tres expertos de referencia para desvelar las claves científicas y prácticas para cumplir más años con mayor calidad de vida. El Dr. Ángel Durántez, pionero en Medicina Preventiva Proactiva y Envejecimiento Saludable en España, explica cómo la prevención personalizada, el ejercicio y el control de factores de riesgo son esenciales para envejecer con calidad de vida.  Antonio Valenzuela, fisioterapeuta y especialista en psiconeuroinmunología clínica, profundiza en el papel fundamental de las mitocondrias como “centrales energéticas” del organismo y comparte estrategias para optimizar su funcionamiento y retrasar el envejecimiento celular.  Por último, el Dr. Joan Matas, ginecólogo y experto en Nutrición y Medicina Ortomolecular, analiza los pilares de la dieta de la longevidad y cómo la alimentación puede influir en los mecanismos moleculares del envejecimiento, apostando por un enfoque “pro-aging” para vivir mejor, no solo más tiempo.  Tres conversaciones imprescindibles para quienes buscan sumar salud y vitalidad a cada etapa de la vida. Este episodio especial resume fragmentos de la conversación mantenida con cada uno de los invitados. Si quieres profundizar en el tema y escuchar la entrevista completa, aquí tienes el enlace a los episodios: Envejecimiento saludable El Dr. Ángel Durántez, cuenta cómo la prevención, la actividad física y la medicina personalizada son claves para retrasar el envejecimiento y mantener la funcionalidad y el bienestar en todas las etapas de la vida. Envejecimiento saludable y medicina de las 7Ps, episodio 29 del Podcast de Jana Fernández con el Doctor Ángel Durántez  Mitocondrias, salud y longevidad Antonio Valenzuela analiza cómo el cuidado de estas “centrales energéticas” a través de hábitos saludables puede prevenir enfermedades y ralentizar el envejecimiento. Mitocondrias: el 'motor' de tu salud y tu longevidad. Episodio 200 del Podcast de Jana Fernández, con Antonio Valenzuela  Dieta de la longevidad El Dr. Joan Matas explica cómo la restricción calórica, la selección de nutrientes y el enfoque “pro-aging” pueden influir en los mecanismos moleculares del envejecimiento, ayudando a mantener la salud y la vitalidad a largo plazo. La 'dieta' de la longevidad: qué comer para vivir más. Episodio 214 del Podcast de Jana Fernández, con el dr. Joan Matas  Más contenido en mi web ⁠janafernadez.es⁠ y en Instagram ⁠@janafr⁠ y ⁠@bienestarydescanso⁠. Si quieres saber más, puedes leer mi libro ⁠Aprende a descansar⁠, y suscribirte a mi newsletter semanal ⁠janafernandez.substack.com

Sunday Evening Service Sermon ( June15, 2025)Thuphanak Paunak 20:7Ps. Kap Lian Khai

Sunday Morning Service Sermon ( Dec29, 2024)ဖိတ်စာIsaiah 55:1-7Ps.Joshua Mangdeih

Can your AI models survive a big disaster? While a recent major IT incident with CrowdStrike wasn't AI related, the magnitude and reaction reminded us that no system no matter how proven is immune to failure. AI modeling systems are no different. Neglecting the best practices of building models can lead to unrecoverable failures. Discover how the three-tiered framework of robustness, resiliency, and anti-fragility can guide your approach to creating AI infrastructures that not only perform reliably under stress but also fail gracefully when the unexpected happens.Show NotesTechnology, incidents, and why basics matter (00:00:03)While the recent Crowdstrike incident wasn't caused by AI, it's impact was a wakeup call for people and processes that support critical systemsAs AI is increasingly being used at both experimental and production levels, we can expect AI incidents are a matter of if, not when. What can you do to prepare?The "7P's": Are you capable of handling the unexpected? (00:09:05)The 7Ps is an adage, dating back to WWII, that aligns with our "do things the hard way" approach to AI governance and modeling systems.Let's consider the levels of building a performant system: Robustness, Resiliency, and AntifragilityModel robustness (00:10:03)Robustness is a very important but often overlooked component of building modeling systems. We suspect that part of the problem is due to: The Kaggle-driven upbringing of data scientistsAssumed generalizability of modeling systems, when models are optimized to perform well on their training data but do not generalize enough to perform well on unseen data.Model resilience (00:16:10)Resiliency is the ability to absorb adverse stimuli without destruction and return to its pre-event state.In practice, robustness and resiliency, testing, and planning are often easy components to leave out. This is where risks and threats are exposed.See also, Episode 8. Model validation: Robustness and resilienceModels and antifragility (00:25:04)Unlike resiliency, which is the ability to absorb damaging inputs without breaking, antifragility is the ability of a system to improve from challenging stimuli. (i.e. the human body)A key question we need to ask ourselves if we are not actively building our AI systems to be antifragile, why are we using AI systems at all?What did you think? Let us know.Do you have a question or a discussion topic for the AI Fundamentalists? Connect with them to comment on your favorite topics: LinkedIn - Episode summaries, shares of cited articles, and more. YouTube - Was it something that we said? Good. Share your favorite quotes. Visit our page - see past episodes and submit your feedback! It continues to inspire future episodes.

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

This is the fifth episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

This is the fifth episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

“If you're getting ready to jump into App Commerce, don't do it on a whim. I'd say, come on to our website and download our 7Ps, and even regardless if you do it with us or do it on your own or with any other people, anyone else, use that as your process.” In Season 7, Episode 19 of the Boss Uncaged Podcast, S.A. Grant sits down with the CEO & Co-Founder of StoreLab, Campbell Paton.

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

Allow me a moment to share a bit of context and details about the Marketing Like We're Human aka The Client Resonator program that's starting again on March 14th. This is my flagship 3month program that is tightly linked to this podcast, because it follows the same framework: the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. It's a deep dive into these 7Ps to help you discover who you are, what your passion is and then bring more of you to your marketing. Market from within, so to speak. But this is more than just marketing. This is building the foundation for your life's work! We start with the inner: the Passion, the Personal Power and then go to the Outer: the People, the Product, the Pricing, the Promotion and the Partnership with others. We go deep, in an intimate group, and come out transformed, with a business that we're truly aligned with. It's a hybrid program with a 30 minute video to watch each week, a beautiful workbook with deep reflection and journal prompts and then a live group call to go deeper! Who is it for? Whether you have 1 year, 5 years or 10 years business experience, it's never to late to go back to create the foundation and instead of just a business, create your life's works, so you can truly market from who you are. The best is always to hear it from other participants. Have a look at humane.marketing/program. There are plenty of testimonials and a handful of in depth case studies. Book a call with me now to discuss if this is the right next step for you at this point in your business.

Allow me a moment to share a bit of context and details about the Marketing Like We're Human aka The Client Resonator program that's starting again on March 14th. This is my flagship 3month program that is tightly linked to this podcast, because it follows the same framework: the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. It's a deep dive into these 7Ps to help you discover who you are, what your passion is and then bring more of you to your marketing. Market from within, so to speak. But this is more than just marketing. This is building the foundation for your life's work! We start with the inner: the Passion, the Personal Power and then go to the Outer: the People, the Product, the Pricing, the Promotion and the Partnership with others. We go deep, in an intimate group, and come out transformed, with a business that we're truly aligned with. It's a hybrid program with a 30 minute video to watch each week, a beautiful workbook with deep reflection and journal prompts and then a live group call to go deeper! Who is it for? Whether you have 1 year, 5 years or 10 years business experience, it's never to late to go back to create the foundation and instead of just a business, create your life's works, so you can truly market from who you are. The best is always to hear it from other participants. Have a look at humane.marketing/program. There are plenty of testimonials and a handful of in depth case studies. Book a call with me now to discuss if this is the right next step for you at this point in your business.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, we venture into the 'P' of People as part of our ongoing exploration of the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Join me in a conversation with Cara Steinmann, the visionary founder of the Ravel Collective and host of the Ravel Radio podcast. Together, we delve into the art of authentic networking, emphasizing the importance of core values, unconventional approaches on LinkedIn, and the profound impact of empathy on your business relationships. Discover new insights that could transform the way you approach human connections and meaningful networking. In this episode, Cara and I discuss: Her experience with traditional networking and how she redefined it How to bring our core values to our networking How Cara uses LinkedIn to create connections, but not with a lead-generation mindset Networking for introverts How to be intentional when networking The importance of quality over quantity And so much more Ep 174 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hi, Cara. So nice to meet. Hi, you. [00:00:04] Cara: Good to see you, Sarah. How's it going? I'm good, thank you. [00:00:08] Sarah: Thanks for having me. Yeah, I really look forward to this conversation with you. I was on your podcast recently and we really [00:00:15] Cara: we're [00:00:16] Sarah: aligned, so I'm glad we have you on the humane part, marketing podcast, and talking about networking. [00:00:23] Right? So that's kind of your. Specialty and, uh, yeah, I want to just go dive right in. So tell me how did you come to make networking part of your specialty? And how did you build a community around networking? Why is networking so important to [00:00:45] Cara: you? It was kind of an accident because I don't really think of myself as a networking person and I think a lot of people probably feel that way because there's this connotation around networking that it's sort of like very businessy and very like you imagine yourself in a [00:01:00] room with very professional people and you're handing out business cards and you're talking about things that are very business related, but I think in my life, uh, in my career, I've sort of acted more as just a connector. [00:01:12] I think of it as connecting with people and building relationships. And that's usually not on a grand scale. It's one person at a time, usually in a one to one conversation. And it doesn't feel like what you would imagine networking to be. So I think maybe a little shift in the way we think about networking can help a lot of us who don't like that whole, you know, big corporate business vibe and really care more about. [00:01:36] One to one relationships and what goes on beyond the business. Yeah. [00:01:40] Sarah: That's already such a, a shift when you say relationship building versus networking. Mm-hmm. has that term work in it. Right. And so it feels like I'm the one going into this crowd and I have to work my way through it. Like, and, and yeah. [00:01:58] Collect the business cards [00:02:00] and you know, it's kind of like, yeah. [00:02:01] Cara: That, and I think. Be I think expanding our understanding of network be working beyond or even relationship building beyond thinking of who we are going to build relationships with to thinking about who we can connect so they can build relationships, because then you expand your network exponentially because then they also. [00:02:23] They also consider you part of their and both of you're part of both of their network. And then they're connecting. And then when they meet new people, they want to introduce you. So it's kind of kind of like weaving a web of connection with people that you genuinely want to talk to and spend time with and respect. [00:02:37] Sarah: It's funny you guys use that term weaving because in our community, uh, we have. One of the calls that is kind of like a networking call, um, but we actually call it net weaving. So I love that it's this idea of, yeah, we're together and we're getting to know one another, but we're weaving, uh, these [00:03:00] relationships. [00:03:00] Cara: And yeah, I love that. Yeah, we unravel. We have connection calls that are just to talk about whatever we want to talk about and connect. We had one yesterday and a bunch of us were on there just talking about what vacations we're taking and a little bit about business and what we're looking at challenges right now. [00:03:14] And then we have a small, small business mastermind where we all break off and then we have a happy hour once a month. And otherwise we're just hanging out in the community, getting to know each other and asking business related questions and personal questions. And, you know, it's about, I think it's a little bit deeper than just. [00:03:30] What do you do and who do you do it for? Like the pitch does, the elevator pitch doesn't matter so much when you know somebody. Yeah. [00:03:38] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. You really addressed something there. It's this superficiality that I always hated at networking events that I felt like people were only listening to themselves talk and preparing what they're going to say next. [00:03:55] Listening to me and, you know, really having a conversation. And then [00:04:00] of course you add, you know, this was prior to COVID you add kind of like, you know, surrounding noise to it and you don't really hear one another and it was just [00:04:10] like [00:04:10] Cara: a nightmare. It is. It's a nightmare prior to COVID. I, I always loathed. [00:04:17] In person networking events, conferences and things like that, because it just, I knew I was going to end up in situations talking to people who really weren't necessarily a very strategic fit for like a strategic partner or referral partner, and that they would, like you said, just be waiting for their opportunity to say what they needed to say about their business and having a lot of surface level conversations because I think a lot of business culture requires you to leave the personal at home. [00:04:41] And I don't want to do that. I think we bring ourselves to our work and to our business, our core values, the way we operate. And I would rather, like we were talking about introverts before we hit record. Right. And I don't really consider myself an introvert, but when it comes to those kinds of things, I really act like one, because I would much rather have an [00:05:00] intimate conversation about things that matter than talk about, you know, What you do, what you do for people, because that's gonna, if you're an entrepreneur, you're going to find that out. [00:05:08] Anyway, we can't help but talk about that. Right. [00:05:10] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, no, it's so true. It's these deeper, meaningful connections and conversations and actually. Also pre COVID, um, there was this, uh, movement on, on LinkedIn, uh, called the LinkedIn local events. Yeah. And so me who always hated networking all of the sudden, I was like, well, these events kind of had a different tone because they, they came with topics and they were really open to this idea of. [00:05:40] Bring yourself to the conversation, bring the human side to the conversation. And so I actually put my hand up together with, um, another, uh, local friend here. And we started creating these LinkedIn local networking events. And, and we created themes, you know, where people would pick [00:06:00] cards and have really deep conversations and people loved it, people were like, Oh, this. [00:06:05] So different. Right. And then every now and then the person would walk in and you could tell, you know, they were like business suit and they probably had their stack of business cards and they're like, what is this? Why [00:06:17] Cara: are people doing here? It's funny. Cause I had, I used to host a speed networking event in Ravel and, um. [00:06:24] I actually, I learned this from a coaching program that I was in and they would do a lot of like more personal questions. And so I love that we only did it once a month and I was like, we need to do this more often. And so the challenge was calling it speed networking because what we actually do when you get there is break up into small little breakout rooms. [00:06:40] And I would. I would offer questions or topic starters, like what's the weirdest thing in your fridge right now? Like things that don't have anything to do with business, but you end up deciding kind of who you really mesh with and who you want to take that relationship further with and really get to know about them and their business and how you can support one another. [00:06:57] Cause you don't really want to support people you don't [00:07:00] care about. Right. So that's kind of the first step, I think, is deciding who you want to care about. Right. [00:07:05] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Before you also addressed core values. So, so huge. What do you think are the, you know, the core, or I guess there's two questions. What are the core values that we should bring to networking and why do they [00:07:21] Cara: matter so much? [00:07:23] I think we should bring our own core values to networking because the truth is we are all I like to think of them as core drivers because I think corporate culture has kind of ruined the term core values for us. We think of the little poster on the wall that doesn't really mean anything. But if you really get into your core drivers, what it means is it's what motivates you. [00:07:40] It's what drives your behavior. So my core values are freedom, authenticity and connection. And I notice when I'm in a funk or when I'm out of sorts, it's because something is going against my core values. So if you're going to network, I think you should network with people ideally who share your core values. [00:07:58] And then you'll [00:08:00] naturally network in a very comfortable way. Like when I started Ravel, I very intentionally invited, I seeded the community with women who I knew shared at least one of my core values, knowing that birds of a feather flock together. And so it worked really well because now we're up around a hundred women and anyone who's referred someone has always been an amazing fit. [00:08:18] I have to do very little background on the applicants now because if I know Maggie int introduced someone else to the group, I know Maggie and I know she's not going to introduce somebody to the group who's not a good fit because her core values align really well with mine. Yeah. So I think that makes it just so much easier to predict how someone's going to behave and what you can expect from them. [00:08:40] Sarah: Yeah, and it really defines the community, [00:08:42] Cara: right? Yeah, it makes it easier to hold that community in a shape, like my goal when I started Ravel was to create a community, just create a space and hold it in a shape, such that people would feel comfortable and vulnerable enough to connect with one another and really get to know each other. [00:08:58] And by inviting the. [00:09:00] Types of people who would be strategically aligned to be most likely to refer one another, like complimentary service providers. They're all B2B service entrepreneurs and they're women. So they have a lot in common and, you know, financial professionals who serve agencies can network with coaches who serve agencies. [00:09:17] And because they share core values, they're going to probably get along pretty well. And it makes it easy to build that kind of rapport that they need to. Want to connect with one another and see what's up in their business and say, Hey, you should talk to so and so. So it's like kind of building relationships with like the happy by product that you get referrals in business works really well. [00:09:36] Yeah. [00:09:37] Sarah: That makes a lot of sense. Usually we hear this this idea of quality over quantity. Um, you just mentioned your communities about 100 people. Um, so, so what do you think about quality over quantity in terms of the networking? Is it a, is it a numbers game or is [00:10:00] it a quality game or is it something [00:10:01] Cara: in between? [00:10:02] I think it's quality over quantity, 100%. And I think it's evolving, honestly, constantly, right? Like, so if you're, cause your business evolves, maybe you shift who you serve or how you serve that person. Um, and so maybe you have a handful of really great referral partners and. you shift your business a little bit. [00:10:21] You might have to, some of those referral partners, it might not be as strategically aligned anymore. And maybe they stay, you stay friends, but you might start looking around for different strategic partners who might be more well aligned, but it's not like you have to shift your whole network. You just start networking with a few different people and start figuring out who, who fits with you. [00:10:38] Um, and I think like a hundred is a lot of women. Like, I don't, I don't intimately know every member of the community anymore. When it was like 20 women, it was like, It was really easy. And, but what we've done is we've separated into smaller groups too. So we have a Slack channel where we have different topics. [00:10:55] We have rabble travel, and we have ADHD all day and moms. And [00:11:00] so we have these different things that we care about. And the women who gravitate to those channels tend to get to know each other well enough that. Even if they're not strategically aligned to refer one another as well as some others would be, they kind of cross pollinate between the community, the micro communities within the chant, within the community. [00:11:17] And then they say, Oh, you know who you should get to know. So there's a lot of paying it forward, introducing people to other people. That is such a, an underrated gift that you can give someone is to say, I think I know somebody who you need to know. Who would, you'd benefit from knowing each other. I mean, making a connection between two people who you think would get along is such a gift. [00:11:38] Yeah. [00:11:39] Sarah: Yeah. So true. Um, you mentioned a few times this word strategic, and I guess it's for you, it's like, well, there's a strategy to networking because again, as an introvert, This idea of networking can sometimes feel so overwhelming because we think, well, does that mean I have to network with [00:12:00] just anybody, you know, so it's like, Oh my God, I don't have the time to network with just anybody. [00:12:07] So, so what, what is a good strategy, um, that feels, you know, empathic and yet very strategic. Um, and I guess time conscious as well. [00:12:20] Cara: Yeah. Yeah. I think. Um, that's probably how most people think of it is just like, it's very overwhelming. You have to make a lot of people think there's a list you have to make and you have to contact X number of people a day. [00:12:31] And that feels very impersonal and kind of, um, like required, which doesn't feel good for a lot of people. Um, I've approached it differently. Like I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. Um, just for networking, though, I don't spend a lot of time scrolling on LinkedIn, but if I find somebody offline, say I'm listening to a podcast or reading a book or find somebody's website online while I'm Googling or going down a rabbit hole of some kind, and I feel like they are strategically aligned with my business, meaning either they're, uh, [00:13:00] Complimentary service provider. [00:13:00] So we serve the same client, but we do different things, or we are a shoulder niche peer, meaning that we do different things or do we do the same sort of thing, but for different clients. So maybe I serve, um, the financial industry and they serve, um, like agencies or something like that. And so we can refer one another because we don't really serve the same ideal client, and this requires knowing what you want and what you're good at. [00:13:24] I don't think we are all suited to do, you know, the same thing. We're, we're all so different. I think it also, I think it's a successful networking in this way requires that you don't believe in competition. We're all so different. There's so much, so many factors that we can own as, you know, authentic to who we are that maybe somebody else doesn't want to own. [00:13:45] And if we know ourselves really well, we can understand what we do best and who we are best suited to serve. And then there's just no way that somebody else is going to bring exactly the same thing to the table that we are. So. We have to kind of get rid of that idea first. And then we're free to [00:14:00] network with people who look like they do something similar to what we do, but probably don't do exactly what we do or for the same person. [00:14:07] Um, and then you can also look for people who are, um, centers of influence coaches for, if you serve entrepreneurs, maybe you're wanting to network with coaches who serve entrepreneurs, and maybe you're a done for you service provider or something like that. So they're in a position to refer you there. [00:14:24] The people you're looking for to network with are the ones who are most likely to be in a position to refer you. So not somebody who's working in a totally different industry with clients that aren't even related to you. Um, but I don't, I don't think you have to go like search for them. I think you can listen to podcasts that are interesting to you and just start taking note of. [00:14:47] Someone who's interesting to you, who you think you might like and say, is that person in a position to refer me perhaps, and then you can just reach out to that person individually. I usually on LinkedIn because it's the easiest place to get [00:15:00] really connected with somebody. Yeah, [00:15:03] Sarah: so the idea is really to find referral partners. [00:15:07] and connect with them. [00:15:09] Cara: Yeah. And to be open about it and say, Hey, I think we have a lot in common. I think we might benefit from knowing each other. Um, I like you. I like what you're doing. Let's connect and just say hi. Mm-hmm. . [00:15:20] Sarah: Yeah. Do you then stop at the, you know, first conversation or how do you. Because it, you know, we always say in networking, you have to stay top of mind. [00:15:31] So how do you stay top of mind with this [00:15:33] Cara: person then? I don't think everyone is going to stay top of mind all the time, right? Like, you're gonna, you're gonna meet a few people who you really click with. And a few people who you don't really click with. One of the reasons that I started Ravel was because it is hard to stay top of mind when we're all busy and we're all running around doing all our stuff all day long. [00:15:52] And I don't, I'm not the kind of person, let's do, we have to do what works for us, right? If you're an organized person and you like lists and you use a [00:16:00] CRM, maybe you can stay top of mind with people in your own strategic way. I can't do that. So I put everybody in a container that I like so that I can stay connected with them in a container. [00:16:12] We, we naturally stay connected because we're having calls or somebody is asking a question and we're learning more about their business that way. And we're commenting and sharing our expertise. And so I think it's about proximity. And then if you're connected with them on LinkedIn and you're following them, you might see them. [00:16:26] It's like, The top of mind thing I think is more about the mere exposure effect than, than the top, than staying top of mind. It's just staying in front of someone who you want to, to stay connected with. And you can do that in a lot of different ways just by commenting on their stuff on LinkedIn. They see you, you learn a little bit more maybe about what they do and it don't think it has to take a long time. [00:16:46] It can take five, 10 minutes to, to go on. And in the case of LinkedIn, I would say like a lot of people suggest. That you'd be connected to a ton of people and follow a ton of people. But I find that really overwhelming. So [00:17:00] I only follow and want to be connected with the people that I really want to stay connected with because then my feed isn't really overwhelming and I can just, I can see the people that I want to stay in touch with and I can comment and like, and stay. [00:17:12] In front of them. And then they remember me. [00:17:15] Sarah: Yeah. So, so, so does that mean that you actually, you know, hide some of the updates of people who you don't want to see anymore, just so not, not to. [00:17:26] Cara: I just unfollow them or disconnect. I am a little bit ruthless that way because it's, we only have so much time and I don't really want to be connected with people that don't align with me really, really well. [00:17:36] So, you know, when I. I've been on LinkedIn for a long, long time, but my, my career has evolved. You know, if the past 15 years I'm doing very different things than I was in the very beginning. And so I, when I decided to reinvest in LinkedIn as a way to connect with people, I went in and I, I had, you know, thousands of connections and I got rid of all but 400 and some odd. [00:17:57] Because it was like, if I don't want to have coffee with this [00:18:00] person, I don't need to be on LinkedIn with them. And perhaps that's different if you're not an entrepreneur and you're trying to get a job. I don't know about that, but for my situation where I want to spend time connecting and networking with people who care about the same things I care about. [00:18:18] That means there's a lot of people I don't need to connect with. And I don't want to waste my time looking at their stuff. if I don't care about it. Right. And they don't know, so it's not mean or anything. [00:18:33] Sarah: Um, yeah, it's really interesting to, to see how, you know, usually we always hear, Oh, use LinkedIn for lead generation, right? [00:18:43] Yeah, that's not how you're looking at it. You're like, well, I, Only want the people I care about. And so they, yes, they might be potential clients or they're, you know, some other level of connection or [00:18:59] [00:19:00] network. [00:19:00] Cara: That's how you. I think that's a giant, you're speaking to something that's really important that I think a lot of people miss. [00:19:05] It's a giant mistake to go into like a community or a networking container and think you're going to sell to the people in that container. You're the benefit of being in a container with a hundred women. Is the connection to the 150 other people they know that they might be able to connect you with. [00:19:24] And yes, we buy from each other. I've purchased products and services from tons of the women inside Ravel and we buy stuff. We hire each other all the time, but it's not because we're sharing our offers and trying to convince each other to buy from us. It's because we happen to know each other really well, and we have a problem and we know that person can solve it. [00:19:42] But most of the time we're introducing someone. To another person, like I'll run. I talked to a friend of mine, or I go to an event or something, and I hear somebody has a problem. And I will say, I know somebody you should talk to. Let me connect you with so and so because I know what she does. And I like her and I know she'll do a good job. [00:19:59] Right. [00:20:00] So we're, we're building the relationships. We're not selling to people and LinkedIn is You know, a breeding ground for people doing lead gen on LinkedIn. We should be doing strategic networking. [00:20:11] Sarah: Yeah, I think that that's really the, the, the difference is not thinking of everybody who is somehow looking like a client just because they, you know, have a human body that, that you think of them as your ideal client. [00:20:29] And especially if you then think of a community where Uh, you know, the minute you bring that kind of energy into a community, the community is basically, yeah, it's destined to [00:20:41] Cara: fail. I've seen it happen in Ravel a couple of times where a couple, where a couple of people have, you know, crossed that line between, Hey guys, here's what I'm doing. [00:20:49] Check it out. Cause we want to share, we want to share what we're doing and we have a space for that, you know, but, um, a couple of people have, you know, gotten a little bit salesy with it. And it's not that they [00:21:00] get slapped down or anything. It's just that nobody responds. Right. It's just not something people are looking for in a community where we're trying to build relationships. [00:21:10] But what we do is we have calls and we connect with one another and we learn what's going on. And then we will often share on another person's behalf. One of our, one of our members, Cara, Cara Hoosier, she's getting ready to publish a book and it's really exciting because she's been through an incredible journey to get where she is. [00:21:25] It's called burnt out to lit up. And it's about. preventing yourself from burning out and what to do when you get there. And she's getting ready to launch this. She's looking for people to help her, you know, do reviews and read her book. And I was super excited for her. So instead of her getting on there and she's saying, Hey guys, look at what I did. [00:21:43] I said, can I share this with the community? Because it's really awesome. And she was like, sure. And so I said, you guys look at this, our member, our fellow friend here. is publishing a book. This is so exciting. Who wants to help her? I know that anybody else in here who is publishing a book would want the community to help them too. [00:21:59] [00:22:00] And so it's a very different message when you lift up another woman, as opposed to saying, look at me. It look at her sounds a lot different than look at me. Sure. So we help each other that way. Yeah. [00:22:12] Sarah: At the same time you as the host. What would you do? And this is not to do with networking, but just as a, you know, fellow community host, what would you do with a member, you know, several times trespasses that kind of unspoken rule that we're not selling in this community? [00:22:34] What would you do? [00:22:36] Cara: We had one instance in two years. In the last two years, we've had one instance where someone really kind of did cross the line. And I wasn't online that morning, but I got a bunch of messages from other community members who were like, Hey, we don't like this. Like we got to do something about this. [00:22:52] Um, and they were upset for me because she was trying to poach a bunch of members into a different community, which I think is fine actually, because [00:23:00] it's, I mean, I don't think poaching is fine, but I think women should have more than one community. They serve different purposes. I. intentionally keep Ravel at a very reasonable price because I want to belong to many communities, and I know that other women do too. [00:23:13] Um, but the way she went about it was really kind of gross. And so I had to respond to that because the community was saying, this feels gross and we don't want to be around this. And so I did ask, I said, we're going to go ahead and Remove you because this is not how we operate in here. I wish you know, but bless and release This might just not be the right place for you Which is important to remember because there are people have different core values people believe different things They operate different ways and just because she doesn't operate the way that we want to operate doesn't mean there's not a place Where that's totally fine for people to do, bless and release. [00:23:46] Um, so it's really more of like the community managing itself. I don't moderate and I don't tell them what they can and can't do. [00:23:54] Sarah: So, yeah, but in a way it's beautiful to have them, you know, kind of [00:24:00] show up and say, Hey, this is not how, this is not how we run here. [00:24:05] Cara: And yeah. And yeah. And that's my whole goal with the community is I don't, I'm not a coach. [00:24:10] I don't. Sell them anything other than the place inside the community, like the space. And so that's what, how I view it is. And I mean, we're kind of getting away from networking into community at this point, but I view it as myself just holding space in a particular shape. And that's my job is to make sure this play, this space is safe and a good place for people to be vulnerable and build relationships. [00:24:31] And if they can't do that, I'm not doing my job. So it has to be a safe space online. Yeah, yeah, [00:24:39] Sarah: that's beautiful. Yeah, we kind of meshed community with networking, but that's what [00:24:45] Cara: you're, that's what it is, right? Yeah, it, if when you're networking, you're building community. It just may not have a specific container it lives in. [00:24:54] Sarah: Yeah. And I also think. If we're changing that [00:25:00] term of networking into net weaving, then that's what we're really doing in a community is weaving a web together because the whole definition of a community is people being connected with each other. Not just to you as the host, right? [00:25:17] Cara: Totally. Yeah. And, and I, and this is why I use Slack, but I pay for the analytics. [00:25:23] I could use it for free, but I want to see what's happening behind the scenes, which is valuable because more than 50 percent of the conversations that are happening inside the community are in the DMs. And I know I'm not having that many conversations. There are thousands of conversations happening during the month. [00:25:36] And I know I'm not having that many. So there are a lot of private conversations happening and partnerships. Um, I introduced a couple of gals recently who are now partnering in business and, and they're super excited and doing some really amazing things. And I know that has nothing to do with me, but we're weaving. [00:25:54] These connections, not just for us, but for other people as well. And I think not, you don't even have [00:26:00] to, like, we can think of containers as smaller things, even text threads between two people or three people. Like if I have several people I want to connect with, because we all live locally, we're on a text thread together and the three of us send funny memes to one another. [00:26:12] And it doesn't have to do with business all the time. Yeah, [00:26:16] Sarah: I agree with that. It can also be more fun, right? It [00:26:18] Cara: should be more fun. Don't you think we should have more fun? I need more fun. [00:26:25] Sarah: Um, Yeah, maybe, maybe that's a good way to close with the, with the fun networking. Um, but maybe just also for people who right now, you know, there's so many communities out there yet, yet they're like, well, I don't either, I don't have the funds or I just can't decide which one to join. [00:26:45] So how can you start networking with that community as, or with that community notion without being in a community? What kind of advice would [00:26:55] Cara: you give? Um, I would say, I would say just [00:27:00] start connecting with people you enjoy. I listen to a lot of podcasts and I reach out to people who I think are excellent, either hosts or, um, interviewees, guests. [00:27:10] And I just tell them, I really, I like just start, start connecting directly with people that you admire, or you think have something interesting to say that you align with. Um, because like, there's that thing homophily, we're attracted to things that are similar to what we love or, or who we are. And so we're, they're going to be attracted to you. [00:27:28] If you share something either, I mean, location's really obvious, but beyond that, like core values or a mission or a purpose or something like that, like, I think you and I initially got connected on LinkedIn long, long ago, because I heard your podcast. And I was like, I, you're doing awesome things. We need to be connected. [00:27:45] And like, it didn't go anywhere for a long time. We had a little back and forth on, on LinkedIn, but eventually here we are trading podcast interviews. And so I think being in it for the long game and having conversations in the DMs, not expecting every [00:28:00] conversation to go somewhere, but being open to it going somewhere. [00:28:04] Yeah. [00:28:04] Sarah: And probably also not coming with this expectation that. Everyone you reach out to is gonna open your, their calendar [00:28:13] Cara: to you, you know, like, yeah, like when we connected initially, I was not expecting a one to one call. I, we live across the country, across the world from one another and we're both busy and eventually maybe we connect, but I genuinely just wanted to tell you that I really like what you're doing. [00:28:30] And I think that's people want to hear that it's people are open to hearing that you agree with them and that you like what they're doing. And if that's all it is, you've put some good energy out in the world and you can leave it at that. Right, [00:28:41] Sarah: exactly. It doesn't doesn't have to become a lead generation. [00:28:45] Cara: Yeah, it doesn't have to even become like a really intense networking like relationship there. We're going to have this whole gamut of closeness in our network, right? And we don't have the capacity to be really close. With a bunch of bunch of people like [00:29:00] 510 people, we're going to be really close with. [00:29:02] Um, and if we're all running in roughly the same circles, there's going to be opportunities for collaboration and referrals and those things. So it's a little bit of a leap of faith, but you got to just trust that if you're doing good work and you're helping people and people know you do it, that they're going to tell somebody exactly [00:29:20] Sarah: plant those seeds. [00:29:21] Yes, that's wonderful. Well, do you tell us a bit more about rattle and your community [00:29:28] Cara: and where people can find it? Yeah. The website is ravelcollective. com and it's for women B2B service entrepreneurs. So financial professionals, lots of marketers, content writers, stuff like that. Consultants. We've got some coaches, some, um, coaches for women entrepreneurs, and it's just a networking community, a really casual networking community where we Get to know each other. [00:29:50] A bunch of us are going to Mexico in a month together. I haven't met three of them, but I, and it's not an official event. I just said, Hey, I'm going to go to Mexico for a week and [00:30:00] do some like 2024 business planning. If anybody wants to join me, I've rented this house. And so it's not, you know, we probably won't talk business all the time, but. [00:30:09] It'll be fun. So we're kind of trying to put some of the fun and like person to person relationship back into business so that we can rely on, I don't know, our, our relationships to sustain us instead of, you know, just relying on ourselves. So yeah, it's 39 a month and it's month to month and it's just a space that I'm holding for women who want to build more professional relationships. [00:30:34] Sarah: We'll make sure to link to it. I always have one last question, uh, Cara, and that's, what are you grateful for today or this week, this month? [00:30:45] Cara: Oh my goodness. I think I'm most grateful for my family this week. It's there's a lot of, there's a lot of lonely people out there and I have a wonderful husband and a, an amazing son and I'm really [00:31:00] grateful for them. [00:31:02] Wonderful. [00:31:03] Thank you for having me.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, we venture into the 'P' of People as part of our ongoing exploration of the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Join me in a conversation with Cara Steinmann, the visionary founder of the Ravel Collective and host of the Ravel Radio podcast. Together, we delve into the art of authentic networking, emphasizing the importance of core values, unconventional approaches on LinkedIn, and the profound impact of empathy on your business relationships. Discover new insights that could transform the way you approach human connections and meaningful networking. In this episode, Cara and I discuss: Her experience with traditional networking and how she redefined it How to bring our core values to our networking How Cara uses LinkedIn to create connections, but not with a lead-generation mindset Networking for introverts How to be intentional when networking The importance of quality over quantity And so much more Ep 174 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hi, Cara. So nice to meet. Hi, you. [00:00:04] Cara: Good to see you, Sarah. How's it going? I'm good, thank you. [00:00:08] Sarah: Thanks for having me. Yeah, I really look forward to this conversation with you. I was on your podcast recently and we really [00:00:15] Cara: we're [00:00:16] Sarah: aligned, so I'm glad we have you on the humane part, marketing podcast, and talking about networking. [00:00:23] Right? So that's kind of your. Specialty and, uh, yeah, I want to just go dive right in. So tell me how did you come to make networking part of your specialty? And how did you build a community around networking? Why is networking so important to [00:00:45] Cara: you? It was kind of an accident because I don't really think of myself as a networking person and I think a lot of people probably feel that way because there's this connotation around networking that it's sort of like very businessy and very like you imagine yourself in a [00:01:00] room with very professional people and you're handing out business cards and you're talking about things that are very business related, but I think in my life, uh, in my career, I've sort of acted more as just a connector. [00:01:12] I think of it as connecting with people and building relationships. And that's usually not on a grand scale. It's one person at a time, usually in a one to one conversation. And it doesn't feel like what you would imagine networking to be. So I think maybe a little shift in the way we think about networking can help a lot of us who don't like that whole, you know, big corporate business vibe and really care more about. [00:01:36] One to one relationships and what goes on beyond the business. Yeah. [00:01:40] Sarah: That's already such a, a shift when you say relationship building versus networking. Mm-hmm. has that term work in it. Right. And so it feels like I'm the one going into this crowd and I have to work my way through it. Like, and, and yeah. [00:01:58] Collect the business cards [00:02:00] and you know, it's kind of like, yeah. [00:02:01] Cara: That, and I think. Be I think expanding our understanding of network be working beyond or even relationship building beyond thinking of who we are going to build relationships with to thinking about who we can connect so they can build relationships, because then you expand your network exponentially because then they also. [00:02:23] They also consider you part of their and both of you're part of both of their network. And then they're connecting. And then when they meet new people, they want to introduce you. So it's kind of kind of like weaving a web of connection with people that you genuinely want to talk to and spend time with and respect. [00:02:37] Sarah: It's funny you guys use that term weaving because in our community, uh, we have. One of the calls that is kind of like a networking call, um, but we actually call it net weaving. So I love that it's this idea of, yeah, we're together and we're getting to know one another, but we're weaving, uh, these [00:03:00] relationships. [00:03:00] Cara: And yeah, I love that. Yeah, we unravel. We have connection calls that are just to talk about whatever we want to talk about and connect. We had one yesterday and a bunch of us were on there just talking about what vacations we're taking and a little bit about business and what we're looking at challenges right now. [00:03:14] And then we have a small, small business mastermind where we all break off and then we have a happy hour once a month. And otherwise we're just hanging out in the community, getting to know each other and asking business related questions and personal questions. And, you know, it's about, I think it's a little bit deeper than just. [00:03:30] What do you do and who do you do it for? Like the pitch does, the elevator pitch doesn't matter so much when you know somebody. Yeah. [00:03:38] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. You really addressed something there. It's this superficiality that I always hated at networking events that I felt like people were only listening to themselves talk and preparing what they're going to say next. [00:03:55] Listening to me and, you know, really having a conversation. And then [00:04:00] of course you add, you know, this was prior to COVID you add kind of like, you know, surrounding noise to it and you don't really hear one another and it was just [00:04:10] like [00:04:10] Cara: a nightmare. It is. It's a nightmare prior to COVID. I, I always loathed. [00:04:17] In person networking events, conferences and things like that, because it just, I knew I was going to end up in situations talking to people who really weren't necessarily a very strategic fit for like a strategic partner or referral partner, and that they would, like you said, just be waiting for their opportunity to say what they needed to say about their business and having a lot of surface level conversations because I think a lot of business culture requires you to leave the personal at home. [00:04:41] And I don't want to do that. I think we bring ourselves to our work and to our business, our core values, the way we operate. And I would rather, like we were talking about introverts before we hit record. Right. And I don't really consider myself an introvert, but when it comes to those kinds of things, I really act like one, because I would much rather have an [00:05:00] intimate conversation about things that matter than talk about, you know, What you do, what you do for people, because that's gonna, if you're an entrepreneur, you're going to find that out. [00:05:08] Anyway, we can't help but talk about that. Right. [00:05:10] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, no, it's so true. It's these deeper, meaningful connections and conversations and actually. Also pre COVID, um, there was this, uh, movement on, on LinkedIn, uh, called the LinkedIn local events. Yeah. And so me who always hated networking all of the sudden, I was like, well, these events kind of had a different tone because they, they came with topics and they were really open to this idea of. [00:05:40] Bring yourself to the conversation, bring the human side to the conversation. And so I actually put my hand up together with, um, another, uh, local friend here. And we started creating these LinkedIn local networking events. And, and we created themes, you know, where people would pick [00:06:00] cards and have really deep conversations and people loved it, people were like, Oh, this. [00:06:05] So different. Right. And then every now and then the person would walk in and you could tell, you know, they were like business suit and they probably had their stack of business cards and they're like, what is this? Why [00:06:17] Cara: are people doing here? It's funny. Cause I had, I used to host a speed networking event in Ravel and, um. [00:06:24] I actually, I learned this from a coaching program that I was in and they would do a lot of like more personal questions. And so I love that we only did it once a month and I was like, we need to do this more often. And so the challenge was calling it speed networking because what we actually do when you get there is break up into small little breakout rooms. [00:06:40] And I would. I would offer questions or topic starters, like what's the weirdest thing in your fridge right now? Like things that don't have anything to do with business, but you end up deciding kind of who you really mesh with and who you want to take that relationship further with and really get to know about them and their business and how you can support one another. [00:06:57] Cause you don't really want to support people you don't [00:07:00] care about. Right. So that's kind of the first step, I think, is deciding who you want to care about. Right. [00:07:05] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Before you also addressed core values. So, so huge. What do you think are the, you know, the core, or I guess there's two questions. What are the core values that we should bring to networking and why do they [00:07:21] Cara: matter so much? [00:07:23] I think we should bring our own core values to networking because the truth is we are all I like to think of them as core drivers because I think corporate culture has kind of ruined the term core values for us. We think of the little poster on the wall that doesn't really mean anything. But if you really get into your core drivers, what it means is it's what motivates you. [00:07:40] It's what drives your behavior. So my core values are freedom, authenticity and connection. And I notice when I'm in a funk or when I'm out of sorts, it's because something is going against my core values. So if you're going to network, I think you should network with people ideally who share your core values. [00:07:58] And then you'll [00:08:00] naturally network in a very comfortable way. Like when I started Ravel, I very intentionally invited, I seeded the community with women who I knew shared at least one of my core values, knowing that birds of a feather flock together. And so it worked really well because now we're up around a hundred women and anyone who's referred someone has always been an amazing fit. [00:08:18] I have to do very little background on the applicants now because if I know Maggie int introduced someone else to the group, I know Maggie and I know she's not going to introduce somebody to the group who's not a good fit because her core values align really well with mine. Yeah. So I think that makes it just so much easier to predict how someone's going to behave and what you can expect from them. [00:08:40] Sarah: Yeah, and it really defines the community, [00:08:42] Cara: right? Yeah, it makes it easier to hold that community in a shape, like my goal when I started Ravel was to create a community, just create a space and hold it in a shape, such that people would feel comfortable and vulnerable enough to connect with one another and really get to know each other. [00:08:58] And by inviting the. [00:09:00] Types of people who would be strategically aligned to be most likely to refer one another, like complimentary service providers. They're all B2B service entrepreneurs and they're women. So they have a lot in common and, you know, financial professionals who serve agencies can network with coaches who serve agencies. [00:09:17] And because they share core values, they're going to probably get along pretty well. And it makes it easy to build that kind of rapport that they need to. Want to connect with one another and see what's up in their business and say, Hey, you should talk to so and so. So it's like kind of building relationships with like the happy by product that you get referrals in business works really well. [00:09:36] Yeah. [00:09:37] Sarah: That makes a lot of sense. Usually we hear this this idea of quality over quantity. Um, you just mentioned your communities about 100 people. Um, so, so what do you think about quality over quantity in terms of the networking? Is it a, is it a numbers game or is [00:10:00] it a quality game or is it something [00:10:01] Cara: in between? [00:10:02] I think it's quality over quantity, 100%. And I think it's evolving, honestly, constantly, right? Like, so if you're, cause your business evolves, maybe you shift who you serve or how you serve that person. Um, and so maybe you have a handful of really great referral partners and. you shift your business a little bit. [00:10:21] You might have to, some of those referral partners, it might not be as strategically aligned anymore. And maybe they stay, you stay friends, but you might start looking around for different strategic partners who might be more well aligned, but it's not like you have to shift your whole network. You just start networking with a few different people and start figuring out who, who fits with you. [00:10:38] Um, and I think like a hundred is a lot of women. Like, I don't, I don't intimately know every member of the community anymore. When it was like 20 women, it was like, It was really easy. And, but what we've done is we've separated into smaller groups too. So we have a Slack channel where we have different topics. [00:10:55] We have rabble travel, and we have ADHD all day and moms. And [00:11:00] so we have these different things that we care about. And the women who gravitate to those channels tend to get to know each other well enough that. Even if they're not strategically aligned to refer one another as well as some others would be, they kind of cross pollinate between the community, the micro communities within the chant, within the community. [00:11:17] And then they say, Oh, you know who you should get to know. So there's a lot of paying it forward, introducing people to other people. That is such a, an underrated gift that you can give someone is to say, I think I know somebody who you need to know. Who would, you'd benefit from knowing each other. I mean, making a connection between two people who you think would get along is such a gift. [00:11:38] Yeah. [00:11:39] Sarah: Yeah. So true. Um, you mentioned a few times this word strategic, and I guess it's for you, it's like, well, there's a strategy to networking because again, as an introvert, This idea of networking can sometimes feel so overwhelming because we think, well, does that mean I have to network with [00:12:00] just anybody, you know, so it's like, Oh my God, I don't have the time to network with just anybody. [00:12:07] So, so what, what is a good strategy, um, that feels, you know, empathic and yet very strategic. Um, and I guess time conscious as well. [00:12:20] Cara: Yeah. Yeah. I think. Um, that's probably how most people think of it is just like, it's very overwhelming. You have to make a lot of people think there's a list you have to make and you have to contact X number of people a day. [00:12:31] And that feels very impersonal and kind of, um, like required, which doesn't feel good for a lot of people. Um, I've approached it differently. Like I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. Um, just for networking, though, I don't spend a lot of time scrolling on LinkedIn, but if I find somebody offline, say I'm listening to a podcast or reading a book or find somebody's website online while I'm Googling or going down a rabbit hole of some kind, and I feel like they are strategically aligned with my business, meaning either they're, uh, [00:13:00] Complimentary service provider. [00:13:00] So we serve the same client, but we do different things, or we are a shoulder niche peer, meaning that we do different things or do we do the same sort of thing, but for different clients. So maybe I serve, um, the financial industry and they serve, um, like agencies or something like that. And so we can refer one another because we don't really serve the same ideal client, and this requires knowing what you want and what you're good at. [00:13:24] I don't think we are all suited to do, you know, the same thing. We're, we're all so different. I think it also, I think it's a successful networking in this way requires that you don't believe in competition. We're all so different. There's so much, so many factors that we can own as, you know, authentic to who we are that maybe somebody else doesn't want to own. [00:13:45] And if we know ourselves really well, we can understand what we do best and who we are best suited to serve. And then there's just no way that somebody else is going to bring exactly the same thing to the table that we are. So. We have to kind of get rid of that idea first. And then we're free to [00:14:00] network with people who look like they do something similar to what we do, but probably don't do exactly what we do or for the same person. [00:14:07] Um, and then you can also look for people who are, um, centers of influence coaches for, if you serve entrepreneurs, maybe you're wanting to network with coaches who serve entrepreneurs, and maybe you're a done for you service provider or something like that. So they're in a position to refer you there. [00:14:24] The people you're looking for to network with are the ones who are most likely to be in a position to refer you. So not somebody who's working in a totally different industry with clients that aren't even related to you. Um, but I don't, I don't think you have to go like search for them. I think you can listen to podcasts that are interesting to you and just start taking note of. [00:14:47] Someone who's interesting to you, who you think you might like and say, is that person in a position to refer me perhaps, and then you can just reach out to that person individually. I usually on LinkedIn because it's the easiest place to get [00:15:00] really connected with somebody. Yeah, [00:15:03] Sarah: so the idea is really to find referral partners. [00:15:07] and connect with them. [00:15:09] Cara: Yeah. And to be open about it and say, Hey, I think we have a lot in common. I think we might benefit from knowing each other. Um, I like you. I like what you're doing. Let's connect and just say hi. Mm-hmm. . [00:15:20] Sarah: Yeah. Do you then stop at the, you know, first conversation or how do you. Because it, you know, we always say in networking, you have to stay top of mind. [00:15:31] So how do you stay top of mind with this [00:15:33] Cara: person then? I don't think everyone is going to stay top of mind all the time, right? Like, you're gonna, you're gonna meet a few people who you really click with. And a few people who you don't really click with. One of the reasons that I started Ravel was because it is hard to stay top of mind when we're all busy and we're all running around doing all our stuff all day long. [00:15:52] And I don't, I'm not the kind of person, let's do, we have to do what works for us, right? If you're an organized person and you like lists and you use a [00:16:00] CRM, maybe you can stay top of mind with people in your own strategic way. I can't do that. So I put everybody in a container that I like so that I can stay connected with them in a container. [00:16:12] We, we naturally stay connected because we're having calls or somebody is asking a question and we're learning more about their business that way. And we're commenting and sharing our expertise. And so I think it's about proximity. And then if you're connected with them on LinkedIn and you're following them, you might see them. [00:16:26] It's like, The top of mind thing I think is more about the mere exposure effect than, than the top, than staying top of mind. It's just staying in front of someone who you want to, to stay connected with. And you can do that in a lot of different ways just by commenting on their stuff on LinkedIn. They see you, you learn a little bit more maybe about what they do and it don't think it has to take a long time. [00:16:46] It can take five, 10 minutes to, to go on. And in the case of LinkedIn, I would say like a lot of people suggest. That you'd be connected to a ton of people and follow a ton of people. But I find that really overwhelming. So [00:17:00] I only follow and want to be connected with the people that I really want to stay connected with because then my feed isn't really overwhelming and I can just, I can see the people that I want to stay in touch with and I can comment and like, and stay. [00:17:12] In front of them. And then they remember me. [00:17:15] Sarah: Yeah. So, so, so does that mean that you actually, you know, hide some of the updates of people who you don't want to see anymore, just so not, not to. [00:17:26] Cara: I just unfollow them or disconnect. I am a little bit ruthless that way because it's, we only have so much time and I don't really want to be connected with people that don't align with me really, really well. [00:17:36] So, you know, when I. I've been on LinkedIn for a long, long time, but my, my career has evolved. You know, if the past 15 years I'm doing very different things than I was in the very beginning. And so I, when I decided to reinvest in LinkedIn as a way to connect with people, I went in and I, I had, you know, thousands of connections and I got rid of all but 400 and some odd. [00:17:57] Because it was like, if I don't want to have coffee with this [00:18:00] person, I don't need to be on LinkedIn with them. And perhaps that's different if you're not an entrepreneur and you're trying to get a job. I don't know about that, but for my situation where I want to spend time connecting and networking with people who care about the same things I care about. [00:18:18] That means there's a lot of people I don't need to connect with. And I don't want to waste my time looking at their stuff. if I don't care about it. Right. And they don't know, so it's not mean or anything. [00:18:33] Sarah: Um, yeah, it's really interesting to, to see how, you know, usually we always hear, Oh, use LinkedIn for lead generation, right? [00:18:43] Yeah, that's not how you're looking at it. You're like, well, I, Only want the people I care about. And so they, yes, they might be potential clients or they're, you know, some other level of connection or [00:18:59] [00:19:00] network. [00:19:00] Cara: That's how you. I think that's a giant, you're speaking to something that's really important that I think a lot of people miss. [00:19:05] It's a giant mistake to go into like a community or a networking container and think you're going to sell to the people in that container. You're the benefit of being in a container with a hundred women. Is the connection to the 150 other people they know that they might be able to connect you with. [00:19:24] And yes, we buy from each other. I've purchased products and services from tons of the women inside Ravel and we buy stuff. We hire each other all the time, but it's not because we're sharing our offers and trying to convince each other to buy from us. It's because we happen to know each other really well, and we have a problem and we know that person can solve it. [00:19:42] But most of the time we're introducing someone. To another person, like I'll run. I talked to a friend of mine, or I go to an event or something, and I hear somebody has a problem. And I will say, I know somebody you should talk to. Let me connect you with so and so because I know what she does. And I like her and I know she'll do a good job. [00:19:59] Right. [00:20:00] So we're, we're building the relationships. We're not selling to people and LinkedIn is You know, a breeding ground for people doing lead gen on LinkedIn. We should be doing strategic networking. [00:20:11] Sarah: Yeah, I think that that's really the, the, the difference is not thinking of everybody who is somehow looking like a client just because they, you know, have a human body that, that you think of them as your ideal client. [00:20:29] And especially if you then think of a community where Uh, you know, the minute you bring that kind of energy into a community, the community is basically, yeah, it's destined to [00:20:41] Cara: fail. I've seen it happen in Ravel a couple of times where a couple, where a couple of people have, you know, crossed that line between, Hey guys, here's what I'm doing. [00:20:49] Check it out. Cause we want to share, we want to share what we're doing and we have a space for that, you know, but, um, a couple of people have, you know, gotten a little bit salesy with it. And it's not that they [00:21:00] get slapped down or anything. It's just that nobody responds. Right. It's just not something people are looking for in a community where we're trying to build relationships. [00:21:10] But what we do is we have calls and we connect with one another and we learn what's going on. And then we will often share on another person's behalf. One of our, one of our members, Cara, Cara Hoosier, she's getting ready to publish a book and it's really exciting because she's been through an incredible journey to get where she is. [00:21:25] It's called burnt out to lit up. And it's about. preventing yourself from burning out and what to do when you get there. And she's getting ready to launch this. She's looking for people to help her, you know, do reviews and read her book. And I was super excited for her. So instead of her getting on there and she's saying, Hey guys, look at what I did. [00:21:43] I said, can I share this with the community? Because it's really awesome. And she was like, sure. And so I said, you guys look at this, our member, our fellow friend here. is publishing a book. This is so exciting. Who wants to help her? I know that anybody else in here who is publishing a book would want the community to help them too. [00:21:59] [00:22:00] And so it's a very different message when you lift up another woman, as opposed to saying, look at me. It look at her sounds a lot different than look at me. Sure. So we help each other that way. Yeah. [00:22:12] Sarah: At the same time you as the host. What would you do? And this is not to do with networking, but just as a, you know, fellow community host, what would you do with a member, you know, several times trespasses that kind of unspoken rule that we're not selling in this community? [00:22:34] What would you do? [00:22:36] Cara: We had one instance in two years. In the last two years, we've had one instance where someone really kind of did cross the line. And I wasn't online that morning, but I got a bunch of messages from other community members who were like, Hey, we don't like this. Like we got to do something about this. [00:22:52] Um, and they were upset for me because she was trying to poach a bunch of members into a different community, which I think is fine actually, because [00:23:00] it's, I mean, I don't think poaching is fine, but I think women should have more than one community. They serve different purposes. I. intentionally keep Ravel at a very reasonable price because I want to belong to many communities, and I know that other women do too. [00:23:13] Um, but the way she went about it was really kind of gross. And so I had to respond to that because the community was saying, this feels gross and we don't want to be around this. And so I did ask, I said, we're going to go ahead and Remove you because this is not how we operate in here. I wish you know, but bless and release This might just not be the right place for you Which is important to remember because there are people have different core values people believe different things They operate different ways and just because she doesn't operate the way that we want to operate doesn't mean there's not a place Where that's totally fine for people to do, bless and release. [00:23:46] Um, so it's really more of like the community managing itself. I don't moderate and I don't tell them what they can and can't do. [00:23:54] Sarah: So, yeah, but in a way it's beautiful to have them, you know, kind of [00:24:00] show up and say, Hey, this is not how, this is not how we run here. [00:24:05] Cara: And yeah. And yeah. And that's my whole goal with the community is I don't, I'm not a coach. [00:24:10] I don't. Sell them anything other than the place inside the community, like the space. And so that's what, how I view it is. And I mean, we're kind of getting away from networking into community at this point, but I view it as myself just holding space in a particular shape. And that's my job is to make sure this play, this space is safe and a good place for people to be vulnerable and build relationships. [00:24:31] And if they can't do that, I'm not doing my job. So it has to be a safe space online. Yeah, yeah, [00:24:39] Sarah: that's beautiful. Yeah, we kind of meshed community with networking, but that's what [00:24:45] Cara: you're, that's what it is, right? Yeah, it, if when you're networking, you're building community. It just may not have a specific container it lives in. [00:24:54] Sarah: Yeah. And I also think. If we're changing that [00:25:00] term of networking into net weaving, then that's what we're really doing in a community is weaving a web together because the whole definition of a community is people being connected with each other. Not just to you as the host, right? [00:25:17] Cara: Totally. Yeah. And, and I, and this is why I use Slack, but I pay for the analytics. [00:25:23] I could use it for free, but I want to see what's happening behind the scenes, which is valuable because more than 50 percent of the conversations that are happening inside the community are in the DMs. And I know I'm not having that many conversations. There are thousands of conversations happening during the month. [00:25:36] And I know I'm not having that many. So there are a lot of private conversations happening and partnerships. Um, I introduced a couple of gals recently who are now partnering in business and, and they're super excited and doing some really amazing things. And I know that has nothing to do with me, but we're weaving. [00:25:54] These connections, not just for us, but for other people as well. And I think not, you don't even have [00:26:00] to, like, we can think of containers as smaller things, even text threads between two people or three people. Like if I have several people I want to connect with, because we all live locally, we're on a text thread together and the three of us send funny memes to one another. [00:26:12] And it doesn't have to do with business all the time. Yeah, [00:26:16] Sarah: I agree with that. It can also be more fun, right? It [00:26:18] Cara: should be more fun. Don't you think we should have more fun? I need more fun. [00:26:25] Sarah: Um, Yeah, maybe, maybe that's a good way to close with the, with the fun networking. Um, but maybe just also for people who right now, you know, there's so many communities out there yet, yet they're like, well, I don't either, I don't have the funds or I just can't decide which one to join. [00:26:45] So how can you start networking with that community as, or with that community notion without being in a community? What kind of advice would [00:26:55] Cara: you give? Um, I would say, I would say just [00:27:00] start connecting with people you enjoy. I listen to a lot of podcasts and I reach out to people who I think are excellent, either hosts or, um, interviewees, guests. [00:27:10] And I just tell them, I really, I like just start, start connecting directly with people that you admire, or you think have something interesting to say that you align with. Um, because like, there's that thing homophily, we're attracted to things that are similar to what we love or, or who we are. And so we're, they're going to be attracted to you. [00:27:28] If you share something either, I mean, location's really obvious, but beyond that, like core values or a mission or a purpose or something like that, like, I think you and I initially got connected on LinkedIn long, long ago, because I heard your podcast. And I was like, I, you're doing awesome things. We need to be connected. [00:27:45] And like, it didn't go anywhere for a long time. We had a little back and forth on, on LinkedIn, but eventually here we are trading podcast interviews. And so I think being in it for the long game and having conversations in the DMs, not expecting every [00:28:00] conversation to go somewhere, but being open to it going somewhere. [00:28:04] Yeah. [00:28:04] Sarah: And probably also not coming with this expectation that. Everyone you reach out to is gonna open your, their calendar [00:28:13] Cara: to you, you know, like, yeah, like when we connected initially, I was not expecting a one to one call. I, we live across the country, across the world from one another and we're both busy and eventually maybe we connect, but I genuinely just wanted to tell you that I really like what you're doing. [00:28:30] And I think that's people want to hear that it's people are open to hearing that you agree with them and that you like what they're doing. And if that's all it is, you've put some good energy out in the world and you can leave it at that. Right, [00:28:41] Sarah: exactly. It doesn't doesn't have to become a lead generation. [00:28:45] Cara: Yeah, it doesn't have to even become like a really intense networking like relationship there. We're going to have this whole gamut of closeness in our network, right? And we don't have the capacity to be really close. With a bunch of bunch of people like [00:29:00] 510 people, we're going to be really close with. [00:29:02] Um, and if we're all running in roughly the same circles, there's going to be opportunities for collaboration and referrals and those things. So it's a little bit of a leap of faith, but you got to just trust that if you're doing good work and you're helping people and people know you do it, that they're going to tell somebody exactly [00:29:20] Sarah: plant those seeds. [00:29:21] Yes, that's wonderful. Well, do you tell us a bit more about rattle and your community [00:29:28] Cara: and where people can find it? Yeah. The website is ravelcollective. com and it's for women B2B service entrepreneurs. So financial professionals, lots of marketers, content writers, stuff like that. Consultants. We've got some coaches, some, um, coaches for women entrepreneurs, and it's just a networking community, a really casual networking community where we Get to know each other. [00:29:50] A bunch of us are going to Mexico in a month together. I haven't met three of them, but I, and it's not an official event. I just said, Hey, I'm going to go to Mexico for a week and [00:30:00] do some like 2024 business planning. If anybody wants to join me, I've rented this house. And so it's not, you know, we probably won't talk business all the time, but. [00:30:09] It'll be fun. So we're kind of trying to put some of the fun and like person to person relationship back into business so that we can rely on, I don't know, our, our relationships to sustain us instead of, you know, just relying on ourselves. So yeah, it's 39 a month and it's month to month and it's just a space that I'm holding for women who want to build more professional relationships. [00:30:34] Sarah: We'll make sure to link to it. I always have one last question, uh, Cara, and that's, what are you grateful for today or this week, this month? [00:30:45] Cara: Oh my goodness. I think I'm most grateful for my family this week. It's there's a lot of, there's a lot of lonely people out there and I have a wonderful husband and a, an amazing son and I'm really [00:31:00] grateful for them. [00:31:02] Wonderful. [00:31:03] Thank you for having me.

Today's conversation fits under the P of Personal Power If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. (If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps). It's time for another short solo episode. This time I'd like to share a bit more about the 2nd P of Personal Power. I'll address: Why it's key to know your Personal Power in Humane Marketing How defining your core values dictates how you show up in the world What other personality assessments you can use to learn more about who you are How all this information helps you understand your Unique Holistic Marketing Super Power And how to bring all of that into your story Ep 173 text [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 50. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash Coaching. [00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. [00:02:34] Hello friends, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation, well, it's a solo episode fits under the P of personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's. of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If this is your first time here, a very warm welcome. [00:02:57] You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but [00:03:00] you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And humane is with an E at the end. I noticed that non English speakers don't always know that human and humane are spelled differently. [00:03:24] So humane is with an E at the end. And this comes with a seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. So it's time for another. short solo episode and this time I'd like to share a bit more about the second P, the one that stands for personal power. I'll be talking about why it's key to know your personal power in humane marketing, how defining your core values really dictates how you show up in the world, [00:04:00] what other personality assessments you can do. [00:04:02] News to learn more about who you are, how all this information helps you understand your unique holistic marketing superpower. How to bring all of that into your story and just create a business that is aligned with who you are and therefore, you know, also marketed from within. Who am I? That's the question here, right? [00:04:28] And so this is the other P together with passion or purpose, the first P that was completely missing in the traditional marketing model. Before we never looked at ourselves first. It was all about the customer because the customer was king. And so we had to kind of chase after this customer. So I really think it has to do with the human evolution. [00:04:54] We want to self actualize. So it makes sense to learn more about [00:05:00] ourselves first in order to then find out who's a good match for us. It's very aligned also with the inner development goals. Something that I'm recently very much fascinated by and. kind of following the movement, participating in the movement. [00:05:18] So if you haven't heard about the inner development goals, definitely look that up. It's the pendant of the sustainable development goals. But again, as the word says, it's starting within, starting with ourselves. And so it's the same here. We're starting marketing within, within, within ourselves. So it's really. [00:05:39] principle of the resonance, right? So that we find out who we are first in order to resonate with ideal clients who are aligned with us. And marketing with integrity really means marketing in our wholeness. So that's why we need to start with [00:06:00] ourselves. So the first thing we look at, and I'm sure you heard about this before, is our values. [00:06:07] You know, what are our core. Usually it's three or five. So if you haven't done this exercise yet or haven't done it recently, I really highly recommend that you look at your values again, because they actually also change. So there's a free core values assessment. If you Google personal values assessment, you'll, you'll find probably several, but Yeah, they're, they're all pretty much the same. [00:06:36] So you just pick first 10 values and then you narrow it down to five or three. And mine currently are freedom, curiosity, joy. health and honesty. So these are kind of my top five values. In her books, Brene Brown talks about her two [00:07:00] guiding values being courage and faith and how she always thinks about these main values whenever she makes a decision. [00:07:07] For example, freedom is my number one value whenever I don't feel free. I feel trapped and knowing that about myself has really helped me with business decisions. For example, I'm not an ideal fit for working with a business partner under the same company. I just wouldn't feel free to do whatever I want. [00:07:30] It also means that I do my best work with entrepreneurs who also often have this urge for freedom. A few years ago, I trained all the consultants of the local unemployment offices on how to help their clients with LinkedIn. And I really did not like it. They were not my people. They had been working at their jobs for. [00:07:55] And they didn't share this value of freedom and [00:08:00] curiosity and and the growth mindset. So yeah, looking at our values and knowing what they are and bringing them into our work and into our marketing and into our Business decisions is really really key. Another thing I talk about in the Marketing Like We're Human program under the personal P, personal power P, is the Myers Briggs personality assessment. [00:08:28] I'm sure all of us have taken that already at one point in our life. My type is INFJ, so knowing this about myself helps me understand more about my energy. That I'm more introverted and more intuitive. I'm not driven by numbers and stats. I love people but I need to refill my battery by being alone. [00:08:55] So, It's a, it's a good assessment to really know how, how [00:09:00] you're wired and it helps you again with your marketing and your business decisions because it, it teaches you how you do your best work, right? Another one we look at is the Enneagram. I don't know much about that, I think I'm a four, but it's also an interesting one to look at, so if, if that calls you maybe because of the drawing or it just speaks to you more, then definitely have a look at that. [00:09:29] Another one is the, the Strengths Assessment. So, it's called the V I A Institute of Character Strengths, and it's organized in 24 character strengths in different degrees, giving each person a unique character profile. And so, Then it also gives you kind of your six most important character strengths, and which is just also, you know, interesting to look [00:10:00] at. [00:10:00] So mine were Humility, Love of Learning, which is again similar to my Value of Curiosity, Judgment, which is the same J of INFJ. So Judgment, my Husband Tony always makes fun of me about that because I am quite a judgy also with people and say I don't like these pants Things like that, but that's not what it stands for in the Myers Briggs assessment It the J is really about planning everything ahead of time and not being so good with spontaneity And so that's very much me very You know future planning so judgment is my third. [00:10:46] Then fourth is creativity, which is still true. Then fifth is gratitude, which is also true. And then sixth is kindness. So again, it's a lot of confirmation, but knowing this about. [00:11:00] myself lets me tap into it more into, you know, bring that into my marketing. Like I call myself the mama bear of the humane marketing circle. [00:11:10] Well, it is that, you know, kindness, for example comes out of this term. So it's just informs us about different aspects of ourself that we can bring into our communication and our business. Another one of these. It's not really an assessment. It's much bigger than an assessment. I don't know what you would call it. [00:11:35] It, it is human design that is based on astrology and a very similar type of thing is, is called gene keys. So you probably either know human design or you know gene keys, but they're very similar, I would say, because they're based on astrology. And I'm a five... One generator, so there's different profiles, [00:12:00] and I am really usually full of energy. [00:12:04] That's what the generator means. I, I, you know, intrinsically create energy. And so again, just kind of learning more about this human design and it goes into a lot of depth. If you're curious about human design, I highly recommend you listen to episode 159 with Julian Cross and Hill, who is a human design specialist. [00:12:29] And you can find that episode at humane. marketing. com forward slash H. M 1, 5 9. So very, very fascinating work that I dove into a few years ago, and it's still with me. I have my report in my desk, and every now and then I take it back out. I'm like, oh, yes, that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. For example, it gave me the information that I'm actually meant to work with.[00:13:00] [00:13:00] One too many, so writing books, for example, or doing the group coaching, I thought that I was just meant to work one on one because I was an introvert and yet when the human report came out and I worked with someone on, on that. We realized, well, actually, no, it's not so much about one on one or not only about one on one. [00:13:26] So that was interesting for me. So yeah, have a listen to episode 159 with Julian Cross and Hill, who talks about human design. Yet another one is the fascination advantage. So that's more about. looking at how the world sees us rather than how we see the world. And this one really is more marketing oriented. [00:13:49] It's It's really interesting to find out also that often people see us differently from how we see ourselves. So the exact [00:14:00] words that people would use to describe us and the types of tasks that perfectly fit our personal brand and, and then it gives you these 42 personality archetypes, which seems like a lot. [00:14:16] But There's been a lot of research behind that and really it, it is, yeah, it is fascinating. And when I took it a few years ago, I came out as the maverick leader and my kind of Power was innovation and power. And now that I took it again, power stayed the same and innovation changed to mystique, which mystique is the language of listening, which also fits me well. [00:14:46] So it's just interesting to see and find out how the world sees you. And then also kind of receive this language that people would use. Well, I would never. [00:15:00] Describe myself as a maverick leader. I wouldn't put those words out there, but it's interesting to hear and see that maybe that's how people perceive me. [00:15:13] So yeah, very interesting information in that report. It used to be free. Now, unfortunately it's no longer free and it's. I think it's around 70 bucks a client you recently told me so, but I would say it's, it's, if you're interested in that kind of thing, it's definitely worth doing that once. So all these results really help us realize who we are and what we're good at and what our unique holistic marketing superpower is. [00:15:43] There's probably others. Oh, there's one I'm thinking of from Jonathan Fields called What's your SPARCA type? And that one is also a bit more like skills oriented like work oriented. So you'll find that on Jonathan Field's [00:16:00] website, or if you just Google SPARCA type and, and another interesting of these self assessments. [00:16:07] And again, we don't have to. You know, take these labels for granted. Things can change and we don't have to put ourselves into this box. But to me, it really informs us a bit about how we're wired and then. You know, we can tap into that and say, yeah let me explore this and find out how I can use this to my best advantage. [00:16:33] So, for example, if I'd work with a coach that told me that I have to speak on stage every week, that would really not work for me. I'd be totally outside of my comfort zone all the time and probably end up with a burnout in a few months. All about expanding our comfort zone every now and then, like I'm doing in a couple of weeks by going to a big summit about the inner [00:17:00] development goals in, in Sweden. [00:17:01] So again, these inner development goals that I mentioned earlier, it's just really right now at a topic that I'm fascinated. of and really interested in and so these summits are, they're, yeah, I'm an introvert as you know and so going to a big summit like that is, yeah, outside of my comfort zone, but it's. [00:17:25] Okay for me to expand that comfort zone every now and then, but for most of the time, I agree with my friend, Adam, who has this concept that he calls inside the comfort zone. And I think that's why we're doing these personality assessments and figuring out our unique, holistic superpower is that for most of the time we can operate within. [00:17:49] our comfort zone. And I really think we are our best selves and do our best work when we truly know who we are and bring all of us [00:18:00] to our work. No masks. We're not faking it until we are making it. Right? Most of the time, I would say probably 98 percent we do our best work if we are truly just who we are. [00:18:13] 2 percent of the time, yeah, we'll have to put on a little mask. And, and, you know, for me, it's usually kind of faking the small talk or, or pretending I'm fine when I'm actually having a headache, which happens a lot. But other than that. I just, you know, operate best if I'm truly inside the comfort zone and, and being my true self. [00:18:38] Another thing knowing my personal power helped me understand is that I need a lot of spaciousness in my days. Even though I call myself a conscious business coach, I don't enjoy coaching loads of clients at the same time. My brain just can't handle it. Another thing I didn't I mentioned so [00:19:00] much here is that I'm a highly sensitive person, that's, you know, it's not a, in a, in a personality assessment, but it's, it's a trait. [00:19:08] It's a personality trait. And so, Understanding this about myself that I'm highly sensitive and that my brain quite quickly probably more quickly than other people goes into overload, it just made me understand, well, I can't be this coach like other people are coaching all day long and having like six, seven coaching clients per day, it's, it's not good for me. [00:19:36] So that's why I shifted my business model to now work only with three. one on one clients at a time and they of course get then my full attention and I can over deliver because I'm not spread too thin. Besides the one on one clients, I then also offer the community and the group program and soon a second one that I'm [00:20:00] calling the business book alchemist. [00:20:02] If you're on my email list, you already know about this one. So another story that comes to about how my values helped me. Make a business decision is the story about the trademark issue with gentle marketing. If you've been in my world for a while, you already know this story that after I published the first book then called the gentle marketing revolution, I received a seasoned assist letter and was told I can no longer use that term. [00:20:33] And so. That was really, really hard, as you can imagine. But sticking to my values where a lot of people kind of even, you know, nice, like friends almost, like at least business friends told me, well, you know, maybe you can fight this. I'm sure there's, there's a gray zone because she's in the U. S. You're in Switzerland, you know, just lawyer up, get a lawyer and, and, and I'm sure you [00:21:00] can fight this. [00:21:01] And yet. That was going so much against my values. I'm like, I don't believe in competition. I believe in collaboration. I don't believe in owning stuff, especially gentle stuff, you know, gentle words. How could I, Sarah, own a word and say, this is now mine. Nobody. It's allowed to use it anymore, especially if I'm calling it a revolution, right? [00:21:29] And so it was just completely against my values to go and say, Hey, this is going to be mine. I'm going to fight for it. And so it really helped me. with my intention, intuition and, and saying, well, I need to let this go. I need to, you know, say, okay, fine. I understand legally, this is yours and I move on and find a new term. [00:21:56] And I think, yeah, the, the values and kind of [00:22:00] in my. moral principles really helped me in this in this decision, which of course wasn't easy, but in the end, I'm, I'm so glad this happened. So yeah, in conclusion, finding our personal power is all about marketing from within. Aligned with our values and really feeling a hundred percent grounded in how we're communicating and it helps you find then also the tactics that are aligned with you and tune out at the same time, all the other noise and all the other shoulds, for example, I'm not on Instagram, I'm no longer on Twitter, I've quit Facebook, I only release one podcast every two weeks now where everybody's saying, well, you should At least, you know, two episodes per week, but it just didn't work for me. [00:22:53] So I do things aligned with my energy and my personal power, the way that [00:23:00] feels good and not what the latest guru marketer tells me to do. And I really, really think. It's so helpful to know what your personal power is, right? What your personal holistic and humane marketing superpower is. And I truly enjoy helping others find their holistic and humane marketing superpower by By guiding them through this journey of finding out, well, how are you wired? [00:23:32] What's your, what are your values? What's, what's your worldview? And, and if you've read my Marketing Like We're Human book, I have a special reader offer that you can find on my website. If you go to humane. dot marketing under the tab books, it's kind of hidden away, it's under the tab books, not offerings. [00:23:51] And so you, you click at the bottom, it says special reader offer. And it's a one off power hour with me [00:24:00] that comes with a 16 page workbook that I'd like you to prepare and reflect on before our time together. So it's really, it's deep work and I'll have you. You know, look at some of these assessments and then we can figure out together, well, what is your humane and holistic marketing superpowers so that you too can tune out all the rest. [00:24:23] And maybe for you, it is Instagram, right? It's not going to be me saying, Oh, but for me, Instagram doesn't work. And so it shouldn't work for you either. It really depends on what you enjoy and how you're wired. And what your energy looks like. So if you're listening to this and think, oh, that would be really helpful, I'd love to help you and find more clarity and ease by figuring out your holistic and humane marketing superpower. [00:24:53] So again, it's at humane. marketing. And then you just look for the tab [00:25:00] books and underneath there, you'll. Find the special reader offer. I really hope you got some value from my ramblings about superpower and humane holistic superpowers. Maybe take some of the assessments that I mentioned. I think it's really, really helpful. [00:25:19] Personal Power is also the second module of the Marketing Like We're Human, aka the Client Resonator Program. So you can find out more about that by going to humane. marketing forward slash program. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:25:39] You can find out more about that at humane. marketing. com. Forward slash circle, you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M one seven three. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, [00:26:00] and the free gentle confidence mini course. [00:26:02] As well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. [00:26:22] Speak soon![00:27:00]

Today's conversation fits under the P of Personal Power If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. (If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps). It's time for another short solo episode. This time I'd like to share a bit more about the 2nd P of Personal Power. I'll address: Why it's key to know your Personal Power in Humane Marketing How defining your core values dictates how you show up in the world What other personality assessments you can use to learn more about who you are How all this information helps you understand your Unique Holistic Marketing Super Power And how to bring all of that into your story Ep 173 text [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 50. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash Coaching. [00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. [00:02:34] Hello friends, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation, well, it's a solo episode fits under the P of personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's. of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If this is your first time here, a very warm welcome. [00:02:57] You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but [00:03:00] you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And humane is with an E at the end. I noticed that non English speakers don't always know that human and humane are spelled differently. [00:03:24] So humane is with an E at the end. And this comes with a seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. So it's time for another. short solo episode and this time I'd like to share a bit more about the second P, the one that stands for personal power. I'll be talking about why it's key to know your personal power in humane marketing, how defining your core values really dictates how you show up in the world, [00:04:00] what other personality assessments you can do. [00:04:02] News to learn more about who you are, how all this information helps you understand your unique holistic marketing superpower. How to bring all of that into your story and just create a business that is aligned with who you are and therefore, you know, also marketed from within. Who am I? That's the question here, right? [00:04:28] And so this is the other P together with passion or purpose, the first P that was completely missing in the traditional marketing model. Before we never looked at ourselves first. It was all about the customer because the customer was king. And so we had to kind of chase after this customer. So I really think it has to do with the human evolution. [00:04:54] We want to self actualize. So it makes sense to learn more about [00:05:00] ourselves first in order to then find out who's a good match for us. It's very aligned also with the inner development goals. Something that I'm recently very much fascinated by and. kind of following the movement, participating in the movement. [00:05:18] So if you haven't heard about the inner development goals, definitely look that up. It's the pendant of the sustainable development goals. But again, as the word says, it's starting within, starting with ourselves. And so it's the same here. We're starting marketing within, within, within ourselves. So it's really. [00:05:39] principle of the resonance, right? So that we find out who we are first in order to resonate with ideal clients who are aligned with us. And marketing with integrity really means marketing in our wholeness. So that's why we need to start with [00:06:00] ourselves. So the first thing we look at, and I'm sure you heard about this before, is our values. [00:06:07] You know, what are our core. Usually it's three or five. So if you haven't done this exercise yet or haven't done it recently, I really highly recommend that you look at your values again, because they actually also change. So there's a free core values assessment. If you Google personal values assessment, you'll, you'll find probably several, but Yeah, they're, they're all pretty much the same. [00:06:36] So you just pick first 10 values and then you narrow it down to five or three. And mine currently are freedom, curiosity, joy. health and honesty. So these are kind of my top five values. In her books, Brene Brown talks about her two [00:07:00] guiding values being courage and faith and how she always thinks about these main values whenever she makes a decision. [00:07:07] For example, freedom is my number one value whenever I don't feel free. I feel trapped and knowing that about myself has really helped me with business decisions. For example, I'm not an ideal fit for working with a business partner under the same company. I just wouldn't feel free to do whatever I want. [00:07:30] It also means that I do my best work with entrepreneurs who also often have this urge for freedom. A few years ago, I trained all the consultants of the local unemployment offices on how to help their clients with LinkedIn. And I really did not like it. They were not my people. They had been working at their jobs for. [00:07:55] And they didn't share this value of freedom and [00:08:00] curiosity and and the growth mindset. So yeah, looking at our values and knowing what they are and bringing them into our work and into our marketing and into our Business decisions is really really key. Another thing I talk about in the Marketing Like We're Human program under the personal P, personal power P, is the Myers Briggs personality assessment. [00:08:28] I'm sure all of us have taken that already at one point in our life. My type is INFJ, so knowing this about myself helps me understand more about my energy. That I'm more introverted and more intuitive. I'm not driven by numbers and stats. I love people but I need to refill my battery by being alone. [00:08:55] So, It's a, it's a good assessment to really know how, how [00:09:00] you're wired and it helps you again with your marketing and your business decisions because it, it teaches you how you do your best work, right? Another one we look at is the Enneagram. I don't know much about that, I think I'm a four, but it's also an interesting one to look at, so if, if that calls you maybe because of the drawing or it just speaks to you more, then definitely have a look at that. [00:09:29] Another one is the, the Strengths Assessment. So, it's called the V I A Institute of Character Strengths, and it's organized in 24 character strengths in different degrees, giving each person a unique character profile. And so, Then it also gives you kind of your six most important character strengths, and which is just also, you know, interesting to look [00:10:00] at. [00:10:00] So mine were Humility, Love of Learning, which is again similar to my Value of Curiosity, Judgment, which is the same J of INFJ. So Judgment, my Husband Tony always makes fun of me about that because I am quite a judgy also with people and say I don't like these pants Things like that, but that's not what it stands for in the Myers Briggs assessment It the J is really about planning everything ahead of time and not being so good with spontaneity And so that's very much me very You know future planning so judgment is my third. [00:10:46] Then fourth is creativity, which is still true. Then fifth is gratitude, which is also true. And then sixth is kindness. So again, it's a lot of confirmation, but knowing this about. [00:11:00] myself lets me tap into it more into, you know, bring that into my marketing. Like I call myself the mama bear of the humane marketing circle. [00:11:10] Well, it is that, you know, kindness, for example comes out of this term. So it's just informs us about different aspects of ourself that we can bring into our communication and our business. Another one of these. It's not really an assessment. It's much bigger than an assessment. I don't know what you would call it. [00:11:35] It, it is human design that is based on astrology and a very similar type of thing is, is called gene keys. So you probably either know human design or you know gene keys, but they're very similar, I would say, because they're based on astrology. And I'm a five... One generator, so there's different profiles, [00:12:00] and I am really usually full of energy. [00:12:04] That's what the generator means. I, I, you know, intrinsically create energy. And so again, just kind of learning more about this human design and it goes into a lot of depth. If you're curious about human design, I highly recommend you listen to episode 159 with Julian Cross and Hill, who is a human design specialist. [00:12:29] And you can find that episode at humane. marketing. com forward slash H. M 1, 5 9. So very, very fascinating work that I dove into a few years ago, and it's still with me. I have my report in my desk, and every now and then I take it back out. I'm like, oh, yes, that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. For example, it gave me the information that I'm actually meant to work with.[00:13:00] [00:13:00] One too many, so writing books, for example, or doing the group coaching, I thought that I was just meant to work one on one because I was an introvert and yet when the human report came out and I worked with someone on, on that. We realized, well, actually, no, it's not so much about one on one or not only about one on one. [00:13:26] So that was interesting for me. So yeah, have a listen to episode 159 with Julian Cross and Hill, who talks about human design. Yet another one is the fascination advantage. So that's more about. looking at how the world sees us rather than how we see the world. And this one really is more marketing oriented. [00:13:49] It's It's really interesting to find out also that often people see us differently from how we see ourselves. So the exact [00:14:00] words that people would use to describe us and the types of tasks that perfectly fit our personal brand and, and then it gives you these 42 personality archetypes, which seems like a lot. [00:14:16] But There's been a lot of research behind that and really it, it is, yeah, it is fascinating. And when I took it a few years ago, I came out as the maverick leader and my kind of Power was innovation and power. And now that I took it again, power stayed the same and innovation changed to mystique, which mystique is the language of listening, which also fits me well. [00:14:46] So it's just interesting to see and find out how the world sees you. And then also kind of receive this language that people would use. Well, I would never. [00:15:00] Describe myself as a maverick leader. I wouldn't put those words out there, but it's interesting to hear and see that maybe that's how people perceive me. [00:15:13] So yeah, very interesting information in that report. It used to be free. Now, unfortunately it's no longer free and it's. I think it's around 70 bucks a client you recently told me so, but I would say it's, it's, if you're interested in that kind of thing, it's definitely worth doing that once. So all these results really help us realize who we are and what we're good at and what our unique holistic marketing superpower is. [00:15:43] There's probably others. Oh, there's one I'm thinking of from Jonathan Fields called What's your SPARCA type? And that one is also a bit more like skills oriented like work oriented. So you'll find that on Jonathan Field's [00:16:00] website, or if you just Google SPARCA type and, and another interesting of these self assessments. [00:16:07] And again, we don't have to. You know, take these labels for granted. Things can change and we don't have to put ourselves into this box. But to me, it really informs us a bit about how we're wired and then. You know, we can tap into that and say, yeah let me explore this and find out how I can use this to my best advantage. [00:16:33] So, for example, if I'd work with a coach that told me that I have to speak on stage every week, that would really not work for me. I'd be totally outside of my comfort zone all the time and probably end up with a burnout in a few months. All about expanding our comfort zone every now and then, like I'm doing in a couple of weeks by going to a big summit about the inner [00:17:00] development goals in, in Sweden. [00:17:01] So again, these inner development goals that I mentioned earlier, it's just really right now at a topic that I'm fascinated. of and really interested in and so these summits are, they're, yeah, I'm an introvert as you know and so going to a big summit like that is, yeah, outside of my comfort zone, but it's. [00:17:25] Okay for me to expand that comfort zone every now and then, but for most of the time, I agree with my friend, Adam, who has this concept that he calls inside the comfort zone. And I think that's why we're doing these personality assessments and figuring out our unique, holistic superpower is that for most of the time we can operate within. [00:17:49] our comfort zone. And I really think we are our best selves and do our best work when we truly know who we are and bring all of us [00:18:00] to our work. No masks. We're not faking it until we are making it. Right? Most of the time, I would say probably 98 percent we do our best work if we are truly just who we are. [00:18:13] 2 percent of the time, yeah, we'll have to put on a little mask. And, and, you know, for me, it's usually kind of faking the small talk or, or pretending I'm fine when I'm actually having a headache, which happens a lot. But other than that. I just, you know, operate best if I'm truly inside the comfort zone and, and being my true self. [00:18:38] Another thing knowing my personal power helped me understand is that I need a lot of spaciousness in my days. Even though I call myself a conscious business coach, I don't enjoy coaching loads of clients at the same time. My brain just can't handle it. Another thing I didn't I mentioned so [00:19:00] much here is that I'm a highly sensitive person, that's, you know, it's not a, in a, in a personality assessment, but it's, it's a trait. [00:19:08] It's a personality trait. And so, Understanding this about myself that I'm highly sensitive and that my brain quite quickly probably more quickly than other people goes into overload, it just made me understand, well, I can't be this coach like other people are coaching all day long and having like six, seven coaching clients per day, it's, it's not good for me. [00:19:36] So that's why I shifted my business model to now work only with three. one on one clients at a time and they of course get then my full attention and I can over deliver because I'm not spread too thin. Besides the one on one clients, I then also offer the community and the group program and soon a second one that I'm [00:20:00] calling the business book alchemist. [00:20:02] If you're on my email list, you already know about this one. So another story that comes to about how my values helped me. Make a business decision is the story about the trademark issue with gentle marketing. If you've been in my world for a while, you already know this story that after I published the first book then called the gentle marketing revolution, I received a seasoned assist letter and was told I can no longer use that term. [00:20:33] And so. That was really, really hard, as you can imagine. But sticking to my values where a lot of people kind of even, you know, nice, like friends almost, like at least business friends told me, well, you know, maybe you can fight this. I'm sure there's, there's a gray zone because she's in the U. S. You're in Switzerland, you know, just lawyer up, get a lawyer and, and, and I'm sure you [00:21:00] can fight this. [00:21:01] And yet. That was going so much against my values. I'm like, I don't believe in competition. I believe in collaboration. I don't believe in owning stuff, especially gentle stuff, you know, gentle words. How could I, Sarah, own a word and say, this is now mine. Nobody. It's allowed to use it anymore, especially if I'm calling it a revolution, right? [00:21:29] And so it was just completely against my values to go and say, Hey, this is going to be mine. I'm going to fight for it. And so it really helped me. with my intention, intuition and, and saying, well, I need to let this go. I need to, you know, say, okay, fine. I understand legally, this is yours and I move on and find a new term. [00:21:56] And I think, yeah, the, the values and kind of [00:22:00] in my. moral principles really helped me in this in this decision, which of course wasn't easy, but in the end, I'm, I'm so glad this happened. So yeah, in conclusion, finding our personal power is all about marketing from within. Aligned with our values and really feeling a hundred percent grounded in how we're communicating and it helps you find then also the tactics that are aligned with you and tune out at the same time, all the other noise and all the other shoulds, for example, I'm not on Instagram, I'm no longer on Twitter, I've quit Facebook, I only release one podcast every two weeks now where everybody's saying, well, you should At least, you know, two episodes per week, but it just didn't work for me. [00:22:53] So I do things aligned with my energy and my personal power, the way that [00:23:00] feels good and not what the latest guru marketer tells me to do. And I really, really think. It's so helpful to know what your personal power is, right? What your personal holistic and humane marketing superpower is. And I truly enjoy helping others find their holistic and humane marketing superpower by By guiding them through this journey of finding out, well, how are you wired? [00:23:32] What's your, what are your values? What's, what's your worldview? And, and if you've read my Marketing Like We're Human book, I have a special reader offer that you can find on my website. If you go to humane. dot marketing under the tab books, it's kind of hidden away, it's under the tab books, not offerings. [00:23:51] And so you, you click at the bottom, it says special reader offer. And it's a one off power hour with me [00:24:00] that comes with a 16 page workbook that I'd like you to prepare and reflect on before our time together. So it's really, it's deep work and I'll have you. You know, look at some of these assessments and then we can figure out together, well, what is your humane and holistic marketing superpowers so that you too can tune out all the rest. [00:24:23] And maybe for you, it is Instagram, right? It's not going to be me saying, Oh, but for me, Instagram doesn't work. And so it shouldn't work for you either. It really depends on what you enjoy and how you're wired. And what your energy looks like. So if you're listening to this and think, oh, that would be really helpful, I'd love to help you and find more clarity and ease by figuring out your holistic and humane marketing superpower. [00:24:53] So again, it's at humane. marketing. And then you just look for the tab [00:25:00] books and underneath there, you'll. Find the special reader offer. I really hope you got some value from my ramblings about superpower and humane holistic superpowers. Maybe take some of the assessments that I mentioned. I think it's really, really helpful. [00:25:19] Personal Power is also the second module of the Marketing Like We're Human, aka the Client Resonator Program. So you can find out more about that by going to humane. marketing forward slash program. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:25:39] You can find out more about that at humane. marketing. com. Forward slash circle, you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M one seven three. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, [00:26:00] and the free gentle confidence mini course. [00:26:02] As well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. [00:26:22] Speak soon![00:27:00]

Today's conversation fits under the P of People If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. (If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps). So, we're talking about the P of people or H of Humans. Only 5 years ago, if I said 'People' you probably pictured a room full of people, or you and your clients or you and your friends going for a walk. Today, in the business context, a lot of the People stuff happens online, on Zoom. I've been working online for many years before the pandemic, so it wasn't a big change for me. I remember putting up a bonus free webinar to help teachers get acquinted with Zoom in the early months of the pandemic. Well, now everyone is Zooming. But not everyone does it well. Just the other week I watched a really quite uncomfortable Zoom call (or a teams call in that case) in a corporate setting where only the manager who was talking was on video, everyone else was hiding behind the screen. When he asked questions, there were long uncomfortable silences. I've myself had to really learn and still learning how facilitate groups on Zoom like our Humane Marketing Circle while giving everyone a chance to speak, and still keep the intimacy in breakout rooms. That's why I'm really excited to be able to learn from today's guest, Robbie Samuels. Robbie has been recognized as a networking expert by NPR, PCMA, Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and Inc, and as an expert in virtual event design by JDC Events. As a virtual event design consultant and executive Zoom producer, he helps organizations bring their events online with less stress and greater participant engagement. He is the author of three books, including his latest, ​​"Break Out of Boredom: Low-Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Events." Since 2016, he has hosted the On the Schmooze podcast and, since March 2020, #NoMoreBadZoom Virtual Happy Hour. In today's episode, Robbie and I talk about: How to host virtual events that feel like we're human How to facilitate bigger groups Create valuable breakout rooms How to make sure everyone gets a turn to speak How to create a feeling of community between participants Best practices to make calls engaging and fun And so much more Thanks for listening! After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast? The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers - a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact. — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Ep 160 Ep 160 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more@humane.marketing slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:33] Hi, friends. Welcome back. Today's conversation fits under the P of people. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm appreciating you and that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps. Of the Humane Marketing Mandala, and if you're new here, I appreciate you just as much, and maybe you don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the [00:03:00] humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing@humane.marketing slash. [00:03:06] One page, the number one, then the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps and kind of question all your assumptions around them. So we're talking about the P of people or the. Age of humans today, and you know, only five years ago if I said people, you probably pictured their room full of people or you and your clients, or you and your friends going for a walk. [00:03:38] But today, in the business context, a lot of the people stuff happens online on Zoom right now, I've been working online for many. Before the pandemic, so it wasn't a big change for me, but I remember putting up a bonus free webinar to help teachers get acquainted with Zoom in the early months of the pandemic because [00:04:00] none of the teachers knew how to use Zoom. [00:04:02] Of course. So everyone is zooming today, but not everyone does it well. Um, just the other week I watched a really quite uncomfortable zoom call or a teams call in that case, in a corporate setting where. Only the manager who was talking was on video, and everyone else was kind of hiding behind the screen. [00:04:25] And when he asked questions, there were like these long, uncomfortable silences and nobody answered. Not saying that silence is bad, silence is good, but in this case, if everybody's hidden behind their camera, then the poor manager obviously doesn't know what they're doing if they're even still there. So anyway. [00:04:46] Had to really learn, and I'm still learning myself how to facilitate groups on Zoom, like the ones in our humane marketing circle, while giving everyone a chance to speak [00:05:00] and still keep the intimacy in breakout rooms. So, yeah, I learned a lot over the last two years and that's why I'm super excited to be able to learn even more from today's guest, Robbie Samuels. [00:05:14] Robbie is a recognized networking expert and an expert in virtual event design. As a virtual event design consultant and executive Zoom producer, he helps organizations bring their events online with less stress and greater per participant engagement. He's the author of three books, including his latest. [00:05:36] Break out of boredom, low tech solutions for highly engaging Zoom events. Since 2016, he has hosted the Amish Schmooze Podcast and since March, 2020, the no more bad Zoom virtual happy hour. . So in this episode with Robbie, we talked about how to host virtual events that feel like we're [00:06:00] human, how to facilitate bigger groups, how to create valuable breakout rooms, how to make sure everyone gets a turn to speak, how to create a feeling of community between participants. [00:06:14] Best practices to make calls engaging and fun and so much more. As you will probably be able to tell, I really took this kind of like a, a mini coaching session for myself, and again, we're really applying this in our humane marketing circle. It's intimate, it's engaging everybody. Uh, turn or a chance to speak. [00:06:39] So if that's something you are curious about, do have a look at humane.marketing/circle. It's our community of humane marketers or entrepreneurs who want to market their business their way. We meet twice per month in an online setting. Right now it's Zoom, but [00:07:00] we'll actually change over to our own private live room on k. [00:07:05] Have a look at the details at humane.marketing/circle. And with that, let's welcome Robbie. Hey Robbie. So good to see you speak to you today. Yeah, thanks for having me here. Yeah, I'm excited. Uh, it's one of those topics, right, that five years ago we probably wouldn't be sitting on a call together, or at least not for that. [00:07:29] Probably more for networking, uh, because that's, that was your thing in the past or probably still is, but, but yeah, you kind of pivoted with the, with the pandemic and all. But yeah, I, I kind of. Dove right into it. So welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast. I love you. You, I love to have you here. Why don't you take us a little bit into the past, but not too much, because we really wanna talk about, you know, zoom calls, group calls, [00:08:00] facilitation online, and all of that, which is the topic of your latest book as well. [00:08:05] So take us a little bit to the past and then to, to the. [00:08:09] Robbie: Well, Sarah, um, I spent over 10 years before the pandemic working to be recognized as a networking expert with a focus on networking at conferences, and that included writing a, my first book, launching a podcast. , um, creating a group coaching program, writing for Howard Business Review, doing a TEDx talk. [00:08:28] I was poised to be an overnight success 10 years in the making. Uh, my TEDx talk came out January, 2020, and by March, 2020 nobody cared. , it was sort of a, uh, not a very relevant topic to be an expert in around in-person networking because all in-person conferences and events really, Vanished. So I was trying to figure out how to show up and add value, and I wrote nine Ways to Network in a Pandemic as a, as a blog post on March 12th, 2020. [00:08:57] And one of those ways was to host [00:09:00] a virtual happy hour, which I did on March 13th. Unbeknownst to me that really launched a whole new thriving six figure business, uh, with all kinds of new revenue streams and really impacted a lot of other people's. I mean, it impacted my life, but the ripple effect is, has been extraordinary. [00:09:17] And by the end of the year, I was supporting organizations of bringing their events online with less stress and greater participant engagement. And as you mentioned, I am about to release on the three anniversary of that first virtual Happy hour, my third book, which is Break Out of Boredom, low Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Event. [00:09:37] Sarah: Wonderful. Wow, what a comeback. Kudos to you. It must have been quite a dark night of the soul. I, I imagine that just kind of like realizing, oh my God, now what? [00:09:49] Robbie: Well, I mean, I, I accepted what was happening on March 9th because I had been paying attention to the news and mm-hmm. sort of was watching this come starting. [00:09:57] You saw this probably in January, just kinda like, [00:10:00] yeah. I was watching it kind of, kind of encroach our, our shores mm-hmm. and get closer and closer, so, I think I came to terms with it, uh, but I didn't know what to do next, and I don't like feeling that, I mean, I, I'm a person of action, so that feeling of being stuck. [00:10:14] But I was very fortunate because on uh, that Wednesday of that week, which is the 11th, I met with my peer mastermind and they gave me a kick in the pants and said, you don't think of networking as something that only happens in person. You have been building a global network for five years, virtually. [00:10:31] Why don't you go help people? And that got me outta my own way, and that's what led me to. Um, basically that night I started working on the nine ways list and, uh, published it the next day it got, you know, a good response cause it was very timely and I said, okay, I need to do one of these things. And I just looked at the list and it was 8:00 PM on a Thursday night , which is why the event is held five o'clock on a Friday cuz it was the next open spot that I could imagine calling a happy [00:11:00] hour. [00:11:00] And I didn't intend it to be a global network. A global event, but 36 countries have been represented amongst the members. Nice. Who attended I, and I'm still hosting it. Right? I'm still hosting that event. No more bad. zoom.com. Three years later. [00:11:13] Sarah: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's really it. It kind of demonstrates this idea of that you are not. [00:11:21] You know, you're, you're not kind of pushed into a niche, and that's where you are stuck for the rest of your life. There's a common thread to your message, right? And whether it is networking in person or now networking online and doing online meetings, Your concept or your approach to it is still the same? [00:11:41] Uh, it reminds me of my dark night of the soul where I got, you know, into a trademark mess where someone, um, was basically blocking me of using gentle marketing, which was the term I used before. And for like about two weeks, I was stuck a bit longer, Robbie, for about two weeks. I was like, well, now what? [00:11:59] [00:12:00] You know, how, how do I get out of this? And everything, everything I built, the books I published and, and two years of work and all of that. But then I realized, people told me as well, it's, well, it's not about a word. You know, you still have the community, you still have the concept, and, and so it's just mm-hmm. [00:12:17] It's great to hear those stories, I think. Right. For listeners as well to realize, well, you know, you can rebound. and, and start something new and it's still gonna be you and it's still giving you your approach, but, you know, just slightly different topic. So, so yeah, let's talk about this slightly different topic because, uh, as you, I think, uh, in one of the videos I watched from you, you said, you know, at the beginning you didn't even know you had breakout rooms, came with your free Zoom account. [00:12:48] And so yeah, that's how we all felt at the beginning of the pandemic. Been working online for years and years. So I knew Zoom, but it's true that a lot of people had like no idea [00:13:00] how to, you know, for me as well, breakout rooms was not a thing that I was using. So nowadays obviously everybody is zooming or, or teams or whatever they're using. [00:13:10] So how do you s how have you seen this evolve? Like what would you say in general? is the kind of the state of the online meetings now. Mm-hmm. . Do most people use them to their advantage and you know that it's really great. All these Zoom meetings we have, or do you hear kind of the opposite? [00:13:33] Robbie: Well, just to go back to your earlier point, the through line for me is that events are about content and connection. [00:13:39] Right. People were leaving their house and getting on planes to travel to conferences, not just for the information they would learn, but for the people they would meet. Right. And so when events became synonymous with the virtual events, I knew we needed to figure out a way to make that possible virtually. [00:13:57] Now, prior to the pandemic, An [00:14:00] online program, which was typically a webinar platform where you couldn't see participants and participants couldn't see each other. Right. It was 45 minutes of death by PowerPoint, followed by ineffectual Q and A on moderating chat . Oh God. Yeah. So I think we've come a long way in what our expectations are, but I also think it depends on the industry. [00:14:19] Because I still know, you know, I've, I've been invited to do some programming virtually for the employee resource group of like a bank or a law firm or financial sector. And like, they tend to be blown away by what I'm doing because they're using it in a very, Minimalist approach to how they use whatever platform they're using. [00:14:42] They're just like turning on their camera and that's it. And [00:14:46] Sarah: if that, because I've assisted to some of the meetings my husband has to kind of survive through and yeah, nobody is on camera like. . [00:14:55] Robbie: That's just it. So, so I think that it really is a range. I can't answer like one way, but I [00:15:00] also don't focus personally on corporate space or the workforce. [00:15:03] Mm-hmm. , I'm my book and my approach is really focusing on the presenters who have between 60 and 90 minutes to offer value to a one-time audience. now, and a lot of this can be therefore applied if you are teaching, uh, a course or a class, this is, you know, or even like a, a weekly team meeting, you can apply a lot of this to that. [00:15:25] But I think there's, there's a few more restrictions. So, for instance, I don't recommend using third party. Tools like Mentee Meter and Jamboard, which I love. But if you only have 60, 75, 90 minutes, you might lose people because if they don't, if they're not familiar and you don't know if they're familiar cuz you don't know the audience super well, you might lose them. [00:15:45] And, and if, if it's about engagement, you're gonna get 70 to 90% of people to responding to a Zoom poll. And you might get 30 to 50% actually answering. , one of these third party polls. Mm-hmm. . And so [00:16:00] yes, it's fancy, yes, it's cool , but if the end result is fewer people actually taking action and people feeling a little bit confused about something, that's not where we want people to be. [00:16:11] So I also, I really focus a lot in the book and in the work that I do on some principles around purpose first design and also quality facilitation. So I'm, I'm specifically focusing on the Zoom. As far as the technology, but those other pieces around facilitation and purpose first design are applicable to any medium, including in person. [00:16:36] Mm-hmm. . So I think there's a strong Venn diagram because I also do in-person event design consulting, and I've been doing that a long time. And then back to doing that again now that people are backed in person. So to me there's a big overlap. How you design an in-person workshop or presentation for 90 minutes and online, but then there's the outliers that you have to consider for both. [00:16:58] So I think that there's a lot of [00:17:00] potential. I've done incredible programming. I've got some great stories in the book about some really cool outcomes we've achieved by bringing people together across geographies to have really in depth conversations about important topics. . I also think that people's tolerance for the sort of boring approach, , is they really don't have any, like, I think people are zoomed out and zoom fatigue. [00:17:24] That's why I call it breakout of boredom. And, and by, by the way, breakout rooms, I went from not knowing I had access to, you know, , I dunno, my book's like 60 some odd thousand words and like 10,000 words. Almost 20% is about breakout rooms. So, [00:17:40] Sarah: yeah. So let's go there. Um, I, I wanna really have you walk us through kind of some of these, you know, yes, they're technicalities, but I think the way you explain them is always comes back to purpose. [00:17:54] You know, like what is. , what's the common [00:18:00] purpose for, uh, us to be on this call? That's how I understood it, um, when I went through this checklist that you'll share with us at the end. So let's start with the waiting room, right? Um, that's usually our first experience when we go on to a Zoom meeting. So how, if we are, if my listeners are hosting a group, uh, zoom. [00:18:24] what are some of the things that can be done? Let's just take Zoom as an example, can be done to already kind of give people this feeling of I belong, or this is, I'm a, I'm on in the right group here. Sure. Like what [00:18:39] Robbie: can we do? Well, for starters, if you're having a group meeting, stop using your personal meeting room because, uh, you, if you write, if you create a meeting, a specific meeting for. [00:18:53] Group, then the name of that meeting will be what appears in the waiting room. Um, so that'll assure people. But you can [00:19:00] also have different settings. So if you use a different link, you could set it so that participants are muted upon entry. Mm-hmm. . Now for why one-on-one calls, I do use my personal meeting ID and I don't mute people because if it's just two of us, I, I don't need you to be muted. [00:19:18] It's actually kind of an inconvenience for you to be. Right, because people start talking and I have to point out to them like, don't forget to unmute . Yeah, the usual, you're muted . Yeah. So then the other thing I would say for waiting rooms, you can customize it beyond that. And there's a bunch of different options. [00:19:33] A lot of what I'm gonna be sharing is under zoom.us, and then you go to settings, which is on the left side menu, and you can just start from the top. And actually really close to the top is waiting rooms. So there's some really cool customi customization, uh, including you can embed a video, you can put an image, you can put text. [00:19:50] Um, I sometimes have texts just says, , take a breath. You know, like, yeah. Take a, take a moment to yourself. Mm-hmm. before you come in. Yeah. But you need [00:20:00] to know that whatever you put for your customization will be what people see for all of your meetings. For that one account. So Okay. If you make a special video for like a big event you're doing, you have to then remember, put a note on your calendar to switch it back to whatever. [00:20:14] You're more general, so you can [00:20:16] Sarah: customized each waiting room separately for each meeting. It's just one you [00:20:21] Robbie: can, but you'd have to like keep going back in and remembering to switch it on and off. Right. [00:20:25] Sarah: Okay. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Okay, great. So, uh, one question. Can people chat already in the waiting room? [00:20:33] I don't think so. Right. [00:20:35] Robbie: Uh, they can't, uh, right now the host can communicate with people in the waiting room. Uh, and I think that they're gonna come out with a feature where the waiting room can then respond back to the host individually. Okay. Um, they, you cannot change your name, for instance, in the waiting. [00:20:53] but the host can change your name. So there's some new features that are coming out. Okay. Um, but I also wanna go back to, [00:21:00] you mentioned purpose first design, and I, I address it as well. So I want you to think about, as people are coming into your session, they're going to be thinking, feeling, and you're doing. [00:21:11] one thing. At the end of their time together, they're gonna be thinking, feeling, and or doing something else. And then in between is the transformation, right? So if you really spend some time thinking about where they're starting and where you want them to end up, that will help you decide. The structure flow, what exercises, what kind of content, how much time to spend on things, what to put in the waiting room, whether or not to have a breakout room. [00:21:38] If so, what kind of question? What kind of, what is the goal of, even for a breakout room, like what's the purpose of a breakout room? Is it around networking? Is it for them to discuss something? Is it for them to share? Is for them to feel like they belong. Like once you understand the sort of really primary focus of each piece of it and how it fits in with that overall goal, it's gonna help you design a much better [00:22:00] quality experience for your participants. [00:22:02] So that's the purpose first design piece. And then the facilitation is just to stop confusing people by saying the incorrect thing. Like go ahead and raise your hand in chat. Never been a raised hand button in chat. I've heard that phrase a lot. Or pointing down and like pointing, uh, pointing here and saying, go to reactions when that's not where it is. [00:22:28] Reactions on your side is on he over here. So if I, if I go to tell you like, um, oh, go ahead and go ahead and, uh, go to the top right of your screen and click. I'm not pointing at the right side of your screen. . This is the right side of your screen. So that's cold mirroring . Mm-hmm. And if you were on a stage physically, you would, you would know that, right? [00:22:51] Like you would know that if you pointed to your left, they're gonna see it on the right. But when we're doing this virtually, people kind of forgot all about that. So that just [00:23:00] hurts our brains. It makes our brains work a little extra hard. And that's part of that zoom fatigue is confusing instructions. [00:23:07] Um, The person who spends a lot of time saying, um, all right, let's see. I'm gonna try to share my slides. Let's see. Oh, the file's not open. And then they like, share their desktop. And you watch them like go through everything on their desktop. You're like, uhhuh, as they like narrate every step. That's, we can all get 5% better every time we zoom. [00:23:30] Yeah. Whether we're participating, whether we're hosting, whether we're speaking. Just aim to get that little bit better. . [00:23:37] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. There's so many small details that we need to learn, right? That, that now it's this extra layer. And actually in some of the videos you, you mentioned it's really helpful to a first, have an extra, um, screen that you can, you know, have one just dedicated screen for your PowerPoint presentation, for example. [00:23:58] Mm-hmm. , uh, [00:24:00] and even, uh, an extra person, like someone who helps you, you know, read through their questions in a q and a setting, or, yeah, just like there's so many things that we have to manage that, or we haven't even started talking about breakout rooms. But yeah, there's a lot of things going on that it, it really is sometimes helpful to have a, an extra person. [00:24:22] Robbie: Mm-hmm. , I think if, um, if you have more than 20 people, , I think it's, it starts to be a, for most people, that's where it makes sense to start thinking about having a second person. Right. But that second person, um, could be like a fellow. Uh, I, I know for instance, I know speakers who sh who support each other. [00:24:42] Right. Will they take turns? Like one will moderate chat for one person's program and then the other one will go back and moderate chat for the other person's program? Yeah. Awesome. You can train an assistant or, uh, an. or you know, a VA or even a member of your community to manage chat and manage the q and a [00:25:00] and manage, you know, all of that. [00:25:01] So yeah, it, it, it, and then, but it scales up because, you know, I, I train people on to be Zoom producers, and so Zoom producer would do all the tech, not just the chat. They would handle any technical issues that. You know, community has getting in, getting their sound to work. And then they would also, uh, manage breakout rooms and sharing slides if you need them to, any, anything needed. [00:25:27] Uh, as well as managing chat. And then there's the executive sort of, uh, event design, virtual event design that I do where I'm really providing the strategy ahead of time, training the speakers and how to look good, all that stuff. So it, there's layer. . But I would say starting with having a. Understanding of what does a good Q and A even look like? [00:25:50] Mm-hmm. , and then what kind of support you might need to pull that off. If you've only got six or seven people in a room, I think you're, you're fine on your own. Fine. Yeah. But you still have to know that [00:26:00] while I'm doing my best to look at the camera, there's something happening in chat. So I have sort of techniques where I ask people to write their question and chat, but to write the word question in all caps before their question. [00:26:13] So I'm more likely to. To see it. I also increase the font size by to 150% of the original font size in chat, which makes it a lot easier to catch when things are happening, um, off to side. So these are all little things that over time one thing becomes easier. Then you add on something else. So I'm not saying everyone has to do everything all at once. [00:26:36] That's the 5% part. Um, so I actually have a, a program called The 5% Advantage, and it's the, I launched it in May of 2020 and um, my wife was like, why would anyone wanna get 5% better ? And I said, no, no, every time it's about like continual improvement. , it's, it, it's amazing, like how much faster you will improve if you aim to just [00:27:00] keep getting a little bit better each time. [00:27:03] Sarah: I like that. Um, I do wanna ask you about breakout rooms cuz that's I think one of the things that Yeah, a lot of, uh, these. Programs, um, now include right now that we've gotten used to being on camera on Zoom, where it's not just like a webinar style anymore. And so one of the things you mentioned, um, is this idea of having clear instructions and, and I think I. [00:27:28] Really, I probably get better 5% every time I do it, but it's true that it's so essential to give clear instructions before sending people off into breakout rooms. Cuz you, you explained, you know the situation where people find themselves in the breakout room and they're like, Uh, anyone know what we have to do? [00:27:48] And, you know, they just start chatting about who they are and, and all of that. So, what's kind of like best practices about giving clear instructions, uh, for these breakout [00:27:58] Robbie: rooms? So start back [00:28:00] with the purpose first design. What is the goal of the session? The, the breakout part of this session? Um, if it's a quick icebreaker, then you can do either two people for five minutes or three for six. [00:28:11] If you can open more. I don't know, 10, 15 rooms. I would say three for. minutes is better cuz it's less likely that someone's gonna get stuck in a room by themself because of the internet. Um, failing one person. Um, but that would be like a quick icebreaker question. So they're just, they're literally just going around for a moment to say hello to each other. [00:28:30] Uh, you might do three or four people for 10 minutes. To similarities, how people go around and answer a question. Um, each person gets a couple of minutes and then that goes all the way up to, you know, a discussion where people might get, you know, it might be five or six people for 15 minutes where people really all answer a quick question, but then they dive into. [00:28:49] thoughts about that question a little bit more. So what happens is that if you just sort of throw people in a room without any clear question, uh, someone will [00:29:00] eventually unmute. Like at first they're all gonna like, look at each other. Like, what do we do here? The person who's most comfortable, um, most privileged , uh, probably has been around this community the longest is, is gonna be the one who unmutes and they may not relinquish the microphone and it might become just a. [00:29:19] A whole session of one person talking and now you're in the main room and you're like, awesome People are engaged. They're having so much fun. But that's, that's like checkbox engagement. Like in reality, one person had the mic for the whole time. So what I wanted to say is intentional engagement is that we provide not only a question that is specific, one question, not lots, don't ask the choose from three and all that, but you also provide an answer. [00:29:46] So you say, , you know, what's your biggest win of the week? Here's mine to get you thinking. Here's mine that you then put the question that you just said as the prompt in chat, and you say, if you need [00:30:00] to, you can open up chat and see the question. And let's go alphabetically. Let's go alphabetically by last name. [00:30:07] So if your last name's closest to a, you'll go first. We'll go in that order. And if you don't have a last name showing, go ahead and add it. Or you're going first. Hmm. And that way they get in their brains have already been thinking about the question. , when you tell your answer, you're sharing a story and stories ignite stories in other people's brains. [00:30:27] Mm-hmm. . So when I tell you my big win of the week, you start thinking about, well, what's my big win of the week? Mm-hmm. . So you're already a little bit primed to participate, and then you find out the order and you realize. . Ooh, there's a good chance I'm gonna be going first. , like my last name's close to a, and you're like, oh. [00:30:43] So you really are mentally repaired to unmute and jump in. Now some people get kind of cutesy about the order and they do like longest and short hair or colors of shirts or birthdays. All of those are kind of distracting. Take some time to discuss. [00:31:00] Leading. I mean I've been in so many sessions like that, that we end up talking about horoscopes cuz we were asked to like go in the order of our birthdays, right? [00:31:09] So I generally, I say like alphabetical or, or reverse alphabetical by, um, first name or last name. And if you really think a particular order would be helpful, for instance, maybe people for most experience at least experience with something you can say when you get into the breakout rooms, go to chat and put in the. [00:31:27] Of years you have with this, and we'll use that to organize, you know, most experienced, at least experience. But, um, but all that structure is actually, um, it helps people feel like they belong. And I actually think that thoughtful structure is about inclusion. It's about people feeling not just invited, but welcomed into a conversation. [00:31:49] It tells shy people and introverted people and newcomer. and people who maybe you speak a language that's different than the dominant language being used, it tells [00:32:00] them exactly what the rules are. There's no like in crowd knows how to ask questions or how to unmute. Everybody knows everything. So I think we, we, um, we as hosts and facilitators sometime like relinquish our role by saying, you all figure it out, but just like an in-person event, like people thrown together at a bar. [00:32:24] Often find the people they wanna meet. But when you structure an event at a bar and you've got name tags and people who are welcoming, you've got activities, you have people in, you know, interacting and engaging with each other. , that little bit of structure is what leads people to find each other, not just the randomness. [00:32:41] And I think online we need the similar structure to help people really find value in those breakout room discussions and wanna stay in touch. Everybody wants to find their people. Nobody wants to feel like they're the only one in the room having this challenged problem, identity, whatever it is. So I, I love [00:33:00] breakout rooms for that reason. [00:33:00] I think it provides so much community building. and then you bring them back. And I think an important part of, of breakout rooms is thinking about what kind of debrief. And by default, a lot of times the debrief is just how people use the raised hand feature. Um, or worse, worse than that would be go ahead and unmute if you have anything to say. [00:33:20] I'm like in person. You would never be like, all right folks, just start talking . It's just so weird that we do that online all the time. Um, so I would say alternate between sometimes having people raise their hand, which is self nominat. Sometimes have people write things in chat sometimes, uh, have them write things in chat, but wait to hit enter until you tell them. [00:33:39] I call that a, uh, waterfall debrief. Um, sometimes I have people nominate someone in chat mm-hmm. . So like, who shared a really great win, nominate them and let's, uh, get them to share with all of us. Um, there's just so many ways. To bring lots of voices in, not always the same. Like I'm an outgoing extrovert. [00:33:56] I, Sarah, I will raise my hand, answer a question, not knowing what the question [00:34:00] even was. , like, I'm like, sure. Mm-hmm. . But then you have people like me dominated in conversations the whole time. So the structure allows someone else to grab the mic or to be invited to grab the mic if they choose. [00:34:12] Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. [00:34:13] I'm grabbing the, I'm grabbing the mic. I'm the introvert in the room. . Um, yeah. So many good things. Two, no, I'm just gonna kind of reiterate the main takeaways for me. So first of all, yeah, the clear instructions when you send people into the breakout room and, and also what I really loved is, and what we haven't been doing in my Humane Marketing Circle community is defining ahead of time who goes first. [00:34:43] I think that is a big aha for me to really say. . Yeah. Take away that awkwardness like, you know, do you wanna go first? No, you go first. So it's like, okay. It's already clear who goes first. What my community recently asked me is actually to have two [00:35:00] minutes of reflection before they go into a breakout room so that they can. [00:35:05] Kind of think about because we kind of go deep into the, in, in the breakout rooms. But the other thing I learned right now from you is to, for them to already have my answer, um, so that it, like you said, it's a story, right? So they come in with a story, um, And I love that. One thing you didn't mention, uh, that I'm doing, and you'll tell me what you think about that is. [00:35:30] So I usually, for now, I don't go into the breakout rooms just because I, I don't have another person to help me manage it. So I'm the one sending the messages into the breakout rooms saying, okay, it's time to switch next person, you know. The three or four minutes to talk. Do you use that? Is that a good practice or do you [00:35:50] Robbie: Yeah, so, um, there's a couple things that I didn't, I didn't mention that. [00:35:54] Made me think about. One is there's a, there's a setting when you, there's an option when you set up the breakout [00:36:00] rooms that will put a countdown clock on the top. Right? Right. So it's really helpful to turn that on Uhhuh because then when everyone gets in, they know they have 10 minutes and they know how much time is remaining. [00:36:10] Um, helps 'em divide the time up equally. It helps them. Wrap their conversation up and at the end of that 10 minutes, my recommendation is to change. To be a 15 second countdown clock is default. 60 minutes. 60 seconds. Mm-hmm. But if you're watching the time countdown, and then suddenly you have a minute, there's this moment of almost walk awkward walk. [00:36:29] Awkward is when you say a big goodbye to someone at a restaurant and then discover we're both going in the same direction to your cars . That's. in person, but similarly, like you get to this point where everyone's like, all right, great, see you. Oh, 60 seconds. And then some people leave. Some people are like, oh, I have a whole nother thing. [00:36:47] I think I can squeeze in 60. Like it just, you know. So you're the [00:36:51] Sarah: countdown. It's better to have less time [00:36:53] Robbie: actually. Like Yeah, just get like, okay, we're wrapping up, we're coming back like we had, you got your 10 minutes, [00:37:00] then come back. Or to tell people, I mean, I guess if you wanted 'em to keep the 60 seconds, you can say, It's gonna be, you know, I guess just give people clear instructions. [00:37:08] Yeah. Um, and then, yes, there's a couple of ways to broadcast into the rooms. One is text only, and I, that's like walking by with a sign. Like if you were at an in-person event, you'd be walking by with a sign that said two minutes. You know, and you wouldn't say anything. You would just walk by and try to catch. [00:37:24] Not everyone would see it. You might be holding the sign behind some people's heads. Right. It's a very small font at the top. Then they have broadcast. and that is a lot more jarring if you wanted to use it. I think you need to tell people in advance, um, that you're going to say switch because it's a voice [00:37:42] Sarah: outta nowhere. [00:37:42] I never used it cuz I thought like, that is so odd if all of a sudden [00:37:46] Robbie: they hear my voice. Now, if you only had two people and it was very clearly like, you know, pairing and then switch, I could see cuz again would you in person like ring a bell and call out. Okay folks switch like [00:38:00] if you would. Think about like, yes, it's disruptive. [00:38:04] Now the problem is if you, if you have three people you don't know when they switched, like it's not as exact as science. And then there's also a way to broadcast an image, a video, or um, like a slides, like anything you can put on your screen, you can broadcast that. , um, that would be interesting to do if you had facilitators in the rooms and you wanted everyone to go through this content at the same pace. [00:38:26] You would be advancing the slides based on a certain increment of time. Facilitators would then be sort of taking questions, um, and. You would know that all the rooms were kind of moving through the content at the same pace, at the same amount of time for q and a at the end, and you'd be managing that. [00:38:44] They wouldn't be able to forward it, they wouldn't be able to annotate on it. But it is a way to like share the question. Again, it's disruptive in the sense that suddenly there's this thing on their screen mm-hmm. , um, that's, that's blocking some of them. Although they're, it's funny because the people are gonna be, uh, actually [00:39:00] over here in the image over here if they have a side by side set up. [00:39:03] So, but, um, but generally, yeah, the broadcast messaging, I would say like a two minute warning is usually really useful, like a halfway through two minutes left. But, um, the countdown clock up here is, is really, really helpful for most. . [00:39:17] Sarah: Yeah, I'll start using that. I haven't used that. I didn't know it existed. [00:39:20] And, and so thanks to your checklist, I now know where it is. So, so, um, yeah, we're coming to the end and, and so let's not forget to mention your checklist, but we started with the beginning. We went through the, you know, breakout rooms and all of that. And you said in the design, it's so important to also think. [00:39:40] you know, how are we gonna end this? So what is a good ending? What is, do you use any rituals or, um, yeah. You mentioned pictures, I think in one of the tips as well where you kind of take a screenshot of everybody. What are some good ideas for ending [00:39:56] Robbie: calls? Well, I think a lot of times calls end [00:40:00] with, well, we don't really have any time for anymore questions. [00:40:04] Like, and that's it. So if it's a presentation, I think it's really smart to. like two minutes. The end where you say, you know, oh, okay. Let me just, um, you know, those were great questions. Lemme just share some closing thoughts and then you have like the reiteration of your main point. Not, not new information, but like, it could be a reiteration of your main point. [00:40:26] It could be call to action or here are some next steps, or Here's what's coming up. , but you make sure that the, you know, if you're hosting, you give the mic back to the speaker, you thank them, you let them have two minutes, and then you take it back and say like, thank you. Here's what's happening next. So we just, you wanna think about having kind of a close, um, that isn't just, you know, wa wa we're out of time and, um, and, and gets people thinking about what do they do with this next, I, I like to do something I call calendaring, connecting, collaborating, and I do this both [00:41:00] in person. [00:41:01] as well as online when I design calendaring. Connecting, collaborating. So calendaring is you ask everyone to take a minute to think about one thing they can do in the next two weeks that they will help them move forward on this topic. And you say, great, now that you have that idea, open your calendar on your phone and find a time in the next two weeks that you're gonna be able to do that. [00:41:22] And like, look at your notes from today and. Connecting is if you're not quite sure what to do or you need some help, uh, look around to the people that you've been meeting with today and in breakout rooms and me and other. Here are some other people and resources. These are the people that you can sup, get support from. [00:41:39] Write down their names. Make sure that in those two weeks you also reach out to some of them and say hello and build a connection or deepen a connection. And then collaboration is that we're not doing any of this alone. I'd love to know. What happens next? Um, you know, lean into each other together. We're gonna build great things. [00:41:56] So, you know, this is your community. And I think that [00:42:00] particularly if, if your goal is to move people from inspiration to action, having that kind of ritualistic closure is helpful because, You know, some people will take tons of notes, but it's, it's useless without a plan. And others are just listening and not taking notes and so they, they also don't have a plan. [00:42:17] And so building some time in, and that could be 10 minutes, that could be a, a, you can really draw that out if you wanted to, or it could be something you do kind of quickly. [00:42:26] Sarah: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I love that. And I love that. , you know, we allow ourselves to have time for that. Uh, and that really needs to be planned into the whole Yes. [00:42:37] Uh, meeting. Right. Oftentimes, like you said, you kind of find yourself just rushed at the end and it's just like, [00:42:43] Robbie: okay, bye. Best content is more. Yeah. I think too often we try to cram a lot in, I wrote my first book in order to stop doing two hour programs. Mm-hmm. , like I had been doing this two hour talk for years and years and years, and I thought if I had a book, , I could say, oh, and you [00:43:00] can read more about that in my book and not have to say every single word. [00:43:04] And so similarly today, like we're not, I haven't, I mean, literally, I almost, you know, 20% of the book is on breakout Ri, so we, we scratch the surface of it, but it gets people the information to realize that there is a new way and then they can go investigate and DIY on their own or seek out support if they need it. [00:43:22] But yeah, I, I, there's a lot of. [00:43:25] Sarah: Yeah. And since you said less content is more. Right. I think also, uh, a point you made is like, don't, don't hide behind the slides. Mm-hmm. , especially if, if we're talking about community calls and, and not, you know, some kind of corporate settings. So definitely, yeah. That's one big one for me. [00:43:46] It's like yeah, the, whenever you can show up on the camera and not behind the slide. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Wonderful. Well, please do share, uh, again, the name of your [00:44:00] book and that, uh, p d f that people can download and look at your videos to go and dive deeper. [00:44:07] Robbie: Yeah. So, um, the book is called Break Out of Boredom, low Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Events. [00:44:14] Uh, it is gonna be published, uh, later this week. So I'm gonna just tell you if you go to breakout of boredom.com. , um, after March 5th or sixth, the, the link will be live and ready to go. Um, building a huge launch team right now, so reach out. If you're interested in being part of that, I'd love a review and the videos that you're mentioning, it sounds like you've done a good job diving into them. [00:44:38] they're available@robbiesamuels.com slash videos, and they're also some of the bonus content. So the book has a lot of free bonus content and the videos, which are 30. Strategy videos and my no more bad zoom settings checklist. Those are, um, one of, I think 10 or 11 resources that are, um, sort of bonus content [00:45:00] that goes with the book, though, all that's available at the breakout of boredom.com. [00:45:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Robbie. I always have one last question that I ask all my gifts and that is, what are you grateful for today or [00:45:13] Robbie: this. , my wife , she's amazing. Uh, she actually recently got laid off and wasn't feeling well. And yet, despite both those challenges, has been an incredible support. [00:45:24] I've had a very busy, uh, couple of months getting ready for this book, writing and launching at the same time. Um, and she holds our family together and our house together. And she, when we got married, said, you know, , you have higher earning potential than I do cuz you're entrepreneurial. And I said you may regret them saying that [00:45:44] And here we are. Um, it's true. I I am, I've got a business cuz I had someone who really believed in me and makes space for what I'm trying to create. So it's, you all need to thank her because I've been able to do a lot of good for a lot of people, [00:46:00] uh, because there's someone in my life who believes in, what's her name, Robbie. [00:46:03] Sarah: Her name is. Hi Jess. I hope you're listening to this . Wonderful. Thank you so much for taking the time to to meet here. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. So much you could I info this conversation right? I hope you took some notes. Uh, please find out more about Robbie and his work@robbiesamuels.com. And if you didn't take notes, go over to uh, find his checklist@robbiesamuels.com slash videos for his 30 plus Zoom strategy videos and checklists. [00:46:37] Uh, his podcast where I'll be a guest on soon as well, I is called on the schmooze, and you can find it on the schmooze.com. And his book, uh, again, is called Break Out of Boredom, low Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Events. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:46:58] Find out more [00:47:00] at humane.marketing/circle. As I mentioned before, we meet twice monthly on Zoom right now, and our calls are definitely non boring and highly engaging because everyone is heard and seen. So again, humane.marketing. Circle. You find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash 60 and 60 episodes. [00:47:27] Wow, I can't believe it. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human, and. Audiobook fan. Uh, this is just a reminder that marketing like we're human is now also available in audio format on Audible or anywhere else where you get your audiobooks. [00:47:58] Of course, read by [00:48:00] yours. Truly. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the. Speak soon.

Today's conversation fits under the P of People If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. (If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps). So, we're talking about the P of people or H of Humans. Only 5 years ago, if I said ‘People' you probably pictured a room full of people, or you and your clients or you and your friends going for a walk. Today, in the business context, a lot of the People stuff happens online, on Zoom. I've been working online for many years before the pandemic, so it wasn't a big change for me. I remember putting up a bonus free webinar to help teachers get acquinted with Zoom in the early months of the pandemic. Well, now everyone is Zooming. But not everyone does it well. Just the other week I watched a really quite uncomfortable Zoom call (or a teams call in that case) in a corporate setting where only the manager who was talking was on video, everyone else was hiding behind the screen. When he asked questions, there were long uncomfortable silences. I've myself had to really learn and still learning how facilitate groups on Zoom like our Humane Marketing Circle while giving everyone a chance to speak, and still keep the intimacy in breakout rooms. That's why I'm really excited to be able to learn from today's guest, Robbie Samuels. Robbie has been recognized as a networking expert by NPR, PCMA, Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and Inc, and as an expert in virtual event design by JDC Events. As a virtual event design consultant and executive Zoom producer, he helps organizations bring their events online with less stress and greater participant engagement. He is the author of three books, including his latest, ​​"Break Out of Boredom: Low-Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Events.” Since 2016, he has hosted the On the Schmooze podcast and, since March 2020, #NoMoreBadZoom Virtual Happy Hour. In today's episode, Robbie and I talk about: How to host virtual events that feel like we're human How to facilitate bigger groups Create valuable breakout rooms How to make sure everyone gets a turn to speak How to create a feeling of community between participants Best practices to make calls engaging and fun And so much more Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Ep 160 Ep 160 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more@humane.marketing slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:33] Hi, friends. Welcome back. Today's conversation fits under the P of people. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm appreciating you and that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps. Of the Humane Marketing Mandala, and if you're new here, I appreciate you just as much, and maybe you don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the [00:03:00] humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing@humane.marketing slash. [00:03:06] One page, the number one, then the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps and kind of question all your assumptions around them. So we're talking about the P of people or the. Age of humans today, and you know, only five years ago if I said people, you probably pictured their room full of people or you and your clients, or you and your friends going for a walk. [00:03:38] But today, in the business context, a lot of the people stuff happens online on Zoom right now, I've been working online for many. Before the pandemic, so it wasn't a big change for me, but I remember putting up a bonus free webinar to help teachers get acquainted with Zoom in the early months of the pandemic because [00:04:00] none of the teachers knew how to use Zoom. [00:04:02] Of course. So everyone is zooming today, but not everyone does it well. Um, just the other week I watched a really quite uncomfortable zoom call or a teams call in that case, in a corporate setting where. Only the manager who was talking was on video, and everyone else was kind of hiding behind the screen. [00:04:25] And when he asked questions, there were like these long, uncomfortable silences and nobody answered. Not saying that silence is bad, silence is good, but in this case, if everybody's hidden behind their camera, then the poor manager obviously doesn't know what they're doing if they're even still there. So anyway. [00:04:46] Had to really learn, and I'm still learning myself how to facilitate groups on Zoom, like the ones in our humane marketing circle, while giving everyone a chance to speak [00:05:00] and still keep the intimacy in breakout rooms. So, yeah, I learned a lot over the last two years and that's why I'm super excited to be able to learn even more from today's guest, Robbie Samuels. [00:05:14] Robbie is a recognized networking expert and an expert in virtual event design. As a virtual event design consultant and executive Zoom producer, he helps organizations bring their events online with less stress and greater per participant engagement. He's the author of three books, including his latest. [00:05:36] Break out of boredom, low tech solutions for highly engaging Zoom events. Since 2016, he has hosted the Amish Schmooze Podcast and since March, 2020, the no more bad Zoom virtual happy hour. . So in this episode with Robbie, we talked about how to host virtual events that feel like we're [00:06:00] human, how to facilitate bigger groups, how to create valuable breakout rooms, how to make sure everyone gets a turn to speak, how to create a feeling of community between participants. [00:06:14] Best practices to make calls engaging and fun and so much more. As you will probably be able to tell, I really took this kind of like a, a mini coaching session for myself, and again, we're really applying this in our humane marketing circle. It's intimate, it's engaging everybody. Uh, turn or a chance to speak. [00:06:39] So if that's something you are curious about, do have a look at humane.marketing/circle. It's our community of humane marketers or entrepreneurs who want to market their business their way. We meet twice per month in an online setting. Right now it's Zoom, but [00:07:00] we'll actually change over to our own private live room on k. [00:07:05] Have a look at the details at humane.marketing/circle. And with that, let's welcome Robbie. Hey Robbie. So good to see you speak to you today. Yeah, thanks for having me here. Yeah, I'm excited. Uh, it's one of those topics, right, that five years ago we probably wouldn't be sitting on a call together, or at least not for that. [00:07:29] Probably more for networking, uh, because that's, that was your thing in the past or probably still is, but, but yeah, you kind of pivoted with the, with the pandemic and all. But yeah, I, I kind of. Dove right into it. So welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast. I love you. You, I love to have you here. Why don't you take us a little bit into the past, but not too much, because we really wanna talk about, you know, zoom calls, group calls, [00:08:00] facilitation online, and all of that, which is the topic of your latest book as well. [00:08:05] So take us a little bit to the past and then to, to the. [00:08:09] Robbie: Well, Sarah, um, I spent over 10 years before the pandemic working to be recognized as a networking expert with a focus on networking at conferences, and that included writing a, my first book, launching a podcast. , um, creating a group coaching program, writing for Howard Business Review, doing a TEDx talk. [00:08:28] I was poised to be an overnight success 10 years in the making. Uh, my TEDx talk came out January, 2020, and by March, 2020 nobody cared. , it was sort of a, uh, not a very relevant topic to be an expert in around in-person networking because all in-person conferences and events really, Vanished. So I was trying to figure out how to show up and add value, and I wrote nine Ways to Network in a Pandemic as a, as a blog post on March 12th, 2020. [00:08:57] And one of those ways was to host [00:09:00] a virtual happy hour, which I did on March 13th. Unbeknownst to me that really launched a whole new thriving six figure business, uh, with all kinds of new revenue streams and really impacted a lot of other people's. I mean, it impacted my life, but the ripple effect is, has been extraordinary. [00:09:17] And by the end of the year, I was supporting organizations of bringing their events online with less stress and greater participant engagement. And as you mentioned, I am about to release on the three anniversary of that first virtual Happy hour, my third book, which is Break Out of Boredom, low Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Event. [00:09:37] Sarah: Wonderful. Wow, what a comeback. Kudos to you. It must have been quite a dark night of the soul. I, I imagine that just kind of like realizing, oh my God, now what? [00:09:49] Robbie: Well, I mean, I, I accepted what was happening on March 9th because I had been paying attention to the news and mm-hmm. sort of was watching this come starting. [00:09:57] You saw this probably in January, just kinda like, [00:10:00] yeah. I was watching it kind of, kind of encroach our, our shores mm-hmm. and get closer and closer, so, I think I came to terms with it, uh, but I didn't know what to do next, and I don't like feeling that, I mean, I, I'm a person of action, so that feeling of being stuck. [00:10:14] But I was very fortunate because on uh, that Wednesday of that week, which is the 11th, I met with my peer mastermind and they gave me a kick in the pants and said, you don't think of networking as something that only happens in person. You have been building a global network for five years, virtually. [00:10:31] Why don't you go help people? And that got me outta my own way, and that's what led me to. Um, basically that night I started working on the nine ways list and, uh, published it the next day it got, you know, a good response cause it was very timely and I said, okay, I need to do one of these things. And I just looked at the list and it was 8:00 PM on a Thursday night , which is why the event is held five o'clock on a Friday cuz it was the next open spot that I could imagine calling a happy [00:11:00] hour. [00:11:00] And I didn't intend it to be a global network. A global event, but 36 countries have been represented amongst the members. Nice. Who attended I, and I'm still hosting it. Right? I'm still hosting that event. No more bad. zoom.com. Three years later. [00:11:13] Sarah: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's really it. It kind of demonstrates this idea of that you are not. [00:11:21] You know, you're, you're not kind of pushed into a niche, and that's where you are stuck for the rest of your life. There's a common thread to your message, right? And whether it is networking in person or now networking online and doing online meetings, Your concept or your approach to it is still the same? [00:11:41] Uh, it reminds me of my dark night of the soul where I got, you know, into a trademark mess where someone, um, was basically blocking me of using gentle marketing, which was the term I used before. And for like about two weeks, I was stuck a bit longer, Robbie, for about two weeks. I was like, well, now what? [00:11:59] [00:12:00] You know, how, how do I get out of this? And everything, everything I built, the books I published and, and two years of work and all of that. But then I realized, people told me as well, it's, well, it's not about a word. You know, you still have the community, you still have the concept, and, and so it's just mm-hmm. [00:12:17] It's great to hear those stories, I think. Right. For listeners as well to realize, well, you know, you can rebound. and, and start something new and it's still gonna be you and it's still giving you your approach, but, you know, just slightly different topic. So, so yeah, let's talk about this slightly different topic because, uh, as you, I think, uh, in one of the videos I watched from you, you said, you know, at the beginning you didn't even know you had breakout rooms, came with your free Zoom account. [00:12:48] And so yeah, that's how we all felt at the beginning of the pandemic. Been working online for years and years. So I knew Zoom, but it's true that a lot of people had like no idea [00:13:00] how to, you know, for me as well, breakout rooms was not a thing that I was using. So nowadays obviously everybody is zooming or, or teams or whatever they're using. [00:13:10] So how do you s how have you seen this evolve? Like what would you say in general? is the kind of the state of the online meetings now. Mm-hmm. . Do most people use them to their advantage and you know that it's really great. All these Zoom meetings we have, or do you hear kind of the opposite? [00:13:33] Robbie: Well, just to go back to your earlier point, the through line for me is that events are about content and connection. [00:13:39] Right. People were leaving their house and getting on planes to travel to conferences, not just for the information they would learn, but for the people they would meet. Right. And so when events became synonymous with the virtual events, I knew we needed to figure out a way to make that possible virtually. [00:13:57] Now, prior to the pandemic, An [00:14:00] online program, which was typically a webinar platform where you couldn't see participants and participants couldn't see each other. Right. It was 45 minutes of death by PowerPoint, followed by ineffectual Q and A on moderating chat . Oh God. Yeah. So I think we've come a long way in what our expectations are, but I also think it depends on the industry. [00:14:19] Because I still know, you know, I've, I've been invited to do some programming virtually for the employee resource group of like a bank or a law firm or financial sector. And like, they tend to be blown away by what I'm doing because they're using it in a very, Minimalist approach to how they use whatever platform they're using. [00:14:42] They're just like turning on their camera and that's it. And [00:14:46] Sarah: if that, because I've assisted to some of the meetings my husband has to kind of survive through and yeah, nobody is on camera like. . [00:14:55] Robbie: That's just it. So, so I think that it really is a range. I can't answer like one way, but I [00:15:00] also don't focus personally on corporate space or the workforce. [00:15:03] Mm-hmm. , I'm my book and my approach is really focusing on the presenters who have between 60 and 90 minutes to offer value to a one-time audience. now, and a lot of this can be therefore applied if you are teaching, uh, a course or a class, this is, you know, or even like a, a weekly team meeting, you can apply a lot of this to that. [00:15:25] But I think there's, there's a few more restrictions. So, for instance, I don't recommend using third party. Tools like Mentee Meter and Jamboard, which I love. But if you only have 60, 75, 90 minutes, you might lose people because if they don't, if they're not familiar and you don't know if they're familiar cuz you don't know the audience super well, you might lose them. [00:15:45] And, and if, if it's about engagement, you're gonna get 70 to 90% of people to responding to a Zoom poll. And you might get 30 to 50% actually answering. , one of these third party polls. Mm-hmm. . And so [00:16:00] yes, it's fancy, yes, it's cool , but if the end result is fewer people actually taking action and people feeling a little bit confused about something, that's not where we want people to be. [00:16:11] So I also, I really focus a lot in the book and in the work that I do on some principles around purpose first design and also quality facilitation. So I'm, I'm specifically focusing on the Zoom. As far as the technology, but those other pieces around facilitation and purpose first design are applicable to any medium, including in person. [00:16:36] Mm-hmm. . So I think there's a strong Venn diagram because I also do in-person event design consulting, and I've been doing that a long time. And then back to doing that again now that people are backed in person. So to me there's a big overlap. How you design an in-person workshop or presentation for 90 minutes and online, but then there's the outliers that you have to consider for both. [00:16:58] So I think that there's a lot of [00:17:00] potential. I've done incredible programming. I've got some great stories in the book about some really cool outcomes we've achieved by bringing people together across geographies to have really in depth conversations about important topics. . I also think that people's tolerance for the sort of boring approach, , is they really don't have any, like, I think people are zoomed out and zoom fatigue. [00:17:24] That's why I call it breakout of boredom. And, and by, by the way, breakout rooms, I went from not knowing I had access to, you know, , I dunno, my book's like 60 some odd thousand words and like 10,000 words. Almost 20% is about breakout rooms. So, [00:17:40] Sarah: yeah. So let's go there. Um, I, I wanna really have you walk us through kind of some of these, you know, yes, they're technicalities, but I think the way you explain them is always comes back to purpose. [00:17:54] You know, like what is. , what's the common [00:18:00] purpose for, uh, us to be on this call? That's how I understood it, um, when I went through this checklist that you'll share with us at the end. So let's start with the waiting room, right? Um, that's usually our first experience when we go on to a Zoom meeting. So how, if we are, if my listeners are hosting a group, uh, zoom. [00:18:24] what are some of the things that can be done? Let's just take Zoom as an example, can be done to already kind of give people this feeling of I belong, or this is, I'm a, I'm on in the right group here. Sure. Like what [00:18:39] Robbie: can we do? Well, for starters, if you're having a group meeting, stop using your personal meeting room because, uh, you, if you write, if you create a meeting, a specific meeting for. [00:18:53] Group, then the name of that meeting will be what appears in the waiting room. Um, so that'll assure people. But you can [00:19:00] also have different settings. So if you use a different link, you could set it so that participants are muted upon entry. Mm-hmm. . Now for why one-on-one calls, I do use my personal meeting ID and I don't mute people because if it's just two of us, I, I don't need you to be muted. [00:19:18] It's actually kind of an inconvenience for you to be. Right, because people start talking and I have to point out to them like, don't forget to unmute . Yeah, the usual, you're muted . Yeah. So then the other thing I would say for waiting rooms, you can customize it beyond that. And there's a bunch of different options. [00:19:33] A lot of what I'm gonna be sharing is under zoom.us, and then you go to settings, which is on the left side menu, and you can just start from the top. And actually really close to the top is waiting rooms. So there's some really cool customi customization, uh, including you can embed a video, you can put an image, you can put text. [00:19:50] Um, I sometimes have texts just says, , take a breath. You know, like, yeah. Take a, take a moment to yourself. Mm-hmm. before you come in. Yeah. But you need [00:20:00] to know that whatever you put for your customization will be what people see for all of your meetings. For that one account. So Okay. If you make a special video for like a big event you're doing, you have to then remember, put a note on your calendar to switch it back to whatever. [00:20:14] You're more general, so you can [00:20:16] Sarah: customized each waiting room separately for each meeting. It's just one you [00:20:21] Robbie: can, but you'd have to like keep going back in and remembering to switch it on and off. Right. [00:20:25] Sarah: Okay. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Okay, great. So, uh, one question. Can people chat already in the waiting room? [00:20:33] I don't think so. Right. [00:20:35] Robbie: Uh, they can't, uh, right now the host can communicate with people in the waiting room. Uh, and I think that they're gonna come out with a feature where the waiting room can then respond back to the host individually. Okay. Um, they, you cannot change your name, for instance, in the waiting. [00:20:53] but the host can change your name. So there's some new features that are coming out. Okay. Um, but I also wanna go back to, [00:21:00] you mentioned purpose first design, and I, I address it as well. So I want you to think about, as people are coming into your session, they're going to be thinking, feeling, and you're doing. [00:21:11] one thing. At the end of their time together, they're gonna be thinking, feeling, and or doing something else. And then in between is the transformation, right? So if you really spend some time thinking about where they're starting and where you want them to end up, that will help you decide. The structure flow, what exercises, what kind of content, how much time to spend on things, what to put in the waiting room, whether or not to have a breakout room. [00:21:38] If so, what kind of question? What kind of, what is the goal of, even for a breakout room, like what's the purpose of a breakout room? Is it around networking? Is it for them to discuss something? Is it for them to share? Is for them to feel like they belong. Like once you understand the sort of really primary focus of each piece of it and how it fits in with that overall goal, it's gonna help you design a much better [00:22:00] quality experience for your participants. [00:22:02] So that's the purpose first design piece. And then the facilitation is just to stop confusing people by saying the incorrect thing. Like go ahead and raise your hand in chat. Never been a raised hand button in chat. I've heard that phrase a lot. Or pointing down and like pointing, uh, pointing here and saying, go to reactions when that's not where it is. [00:22:28] Reactions on your side is on he over here. So if I, if I go to tell you like, um, oh, go ahead and go ahead and, uh, go to the top right of your screen and click. I'm not pointing at the right side of your screen. . This is the right side of your screen. So that's cold mirroring . Mm-hmm. And if you were on a stage physically, you would, you would know that, right? [00:22:51] Like you would know that if you pointed to your left, they're gonna see it on the right. But when we're doing this virtually, people kind of forgot all about that. So that just [00:23:00] hurts our brains. It makes our brains work a little extra hard. And that's part of that zoom fatigue is confusing instructions. [00:23:07] Um, The person who spends a lot of time saying, um, all right, let's see. I'm gonna try to share my slides. Let's see. Oh, the file's not open. And then they like, share their desktop. And you watch them like go through everything on their desktop. You're like, uhhuh, as they like narrate every step. That's, we can all get 5% better every time we zoom. [00:23:30] Yeah. Whether we're participating, whether we're hosting, whether we're speaking. Just aim to get that little bit better. . [00:23:37] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. There's so many small details that we need to learn, right? That, that now it's this extra layer. And actually in some of the videos you, you mentioned it's really helpful to a first, have an extra, um, screen that you can, you know, have one just dedicated screen for your PowerPoint presentation, for example. [00:23:58] Mm-hmm. , uh, [00:24:00] and even, uh, an extra person, like someone who helps you, you know, read through their questions in a q and a setting, or, yeah, just like there's so many things that we have to manage that, or we haven't even started talking about breakout rooms. But yeah, there's a lot of things going on that it, it really is sometimes helpful to have a, an extra person. [00:24:22] Robbie: Mm-hmm. , I think if, um, if you have more than 20 people, , I think it's, it starts to be a, for most people, that's where it makes sense to start thinking about having a second person. Right. But that second person, um, could be like a fellow. Uh, I, I know for instance, I know speakers who sh who support each other. [00:24:42] Right. Will they take turns? Like one will moderate chat for one person's program and then the other one will go back and moderate chat for the other person's program? Yeah. Awesome. You can train an assistant or, uh, an. or you know, a VA or even a member of your community to manage chat and manage the q and a [00:25:00] and manage, you know, all of that. [00:25:01] So yeah, it, it, it, and then, but it scales up because, you know, I, I train people on to be Zoom producers, and so Zoom producer would do all the tech, not just the chat. They would handle any technical issues that. You know, community has getting in, getting their sound to work. And then they would also, uh, manage breakout rooms and sharing slides if you need them to, any, anything needed. [00:25:27] Uh, as well as managing chat. And then there's the executive sort of, uh, event design, virtual event design that I do where I'm really providing the strategy ahead of time, training the speakers and how to look good, all that stuff. So it, there's layer. . But I would say starting with having a. Understanding of what does a good Q and A even look like? [00:25:50] Mm-hmm. , and then what kind of support you might need to pull that off. If you've only got six or seven people in a room, I think you're, you're fine on your own. Fine. Yeah. But you still have to know that [00:26:00] while I'm doing my best to look at the camera, there's something happening in chat. So I have sort of techniques where I ask people to write their question and chat, but to write the word question in all caps before their question. [00:26:13] So I'm more likely to. To see it. I also increase the font size by to 150% of the original font size in chat, which makes it a lot easier to catch when things are happening, um, off to side. So these are all little things that over time one thing becomes easier. Then you add on something else. So I'm not saying everyone has to do everything all at once. [00:26:36] That's the 5% part. Um, so I actually have a, a program called The 5% Advantage, and it's the, I launched it in May of 2020 and um, my wife was like, why would anyone wanna get 5% better ? And I said, no, no, every time it's about like continual improvement. , it's, it, it's amazing, like how much faster you will improve if you aim to just [00:27:00] keep getting a little bit better each time. [00:27:03] Sarah: I like that. Um, I do wanna ask you about breakout rooms cuz that's I think one of the things that Yeah, a lot of, uh, these. Programs, um, now include right now that we've gotten used to being on camera on Zoom, where it's not just like a webinar style anymore. And so one of the things you mentioned, um, is this idea of having clear instructions and, and I think I. [00:27:28] Really, I probably get better 5% every time I do it, but it's true that it's so essential to give clear instructions before sending people off into breakout rooms. Cuz you, you explained, you know the situation where people find themselves in the breakout room and they're like, Uh, anyone know what we have to do? [00:27:48] And, you know, they just start chatting about who they are and, and all of that. So, what's kind of like best practices about giving clear instructions, uh, for these breakout [00:27:58] Robbie: rooms? So start back [00:28:00] with the purpose first design. What is the goal of the session? The, the breakout part of this session? Um, if it's a quick icebreaker, then you can do either two people for five minutes or three for six. [00:28:11] If you can open more. I don't know, 10, 15 rooms. I would say three for. minutes is better cuz it's less likely that someone's gonna get stuck in a room by themself because of the internet. Um, failing one person. Um, but that would be like a quick icebreaker question. So they're just, they're literally just going around for a moment to say hello to each other. [00:28:30] Uh, you might do three or four people for 10 minutes. To similarities, how people go around and answer a question. Um, each person gets a couple of minutes and then that goes all the way up to, you know, a discussion where people might get, you know, it might be five or six people for 15 minutes where people really all answer a quick question, but then they dive into. [00:28:49] thoughts about that question a little bit more. So what happens is that if you just sort of throw people in a room without any clear question, uh, someone will [00:29:00] eventually unmute. Like at first they're all gonna like, look at each other. Like, what do we do here? The person who's most comfortable, um, most privileged , uh, probably has been around this community the longest is, is gonna be the one who unmutes and they may not relinquish the microphone and it might become just a. [00:29:19] A whole session of one person talking and now you're in the main room and you're like, awesome People are engaged. They're having so much fun. But that's, that's like checkbox engagement. Like in reality, one person had the mic for the whole time. So what I wanted to say is intentional engagement is that we provide not only a question that is specific, one question, not lots, don't ask the choose from three and all that, but you also provide an answer. [00:29:46] So you say, , you know, what's your biggest win of the week? Here's mine to get you thinking. Here's mine that you then put the question that you just said as the prompt in chat, and you say, if you need [00:30:00] to, you can open up chat and see the question. And let's go alphabetically. Let's go alphabetically by last name. [00:30:07] So if your last name's closest to a, you'll go first. We'll go in that order. And if you don't have a last name showing, go ahead and add it. Or you're going first. Hmm. And that way they get in their brains have already been thinking about the question. , when you tell your answer, you're sharing a story and stories ignite stories in other people's brains. [00:30:27] Mm-hmm. . So when I tell you my big win of the week, you start thinking about, well, what's my big win of the week? Mm-hmm. . So you're already a little bit primed to participate, and then you find out the order and you realize. . Ooh, there's a good chance I'm gonna be going first. , like my last name's close to a, and you're like, oh. [00:30:43] So you really are mentally repaired to unmute and jump in. Now some people get kind of cutesy about the order and they do like longest and short hair or colors of shirts or birthdays. All of those are kind of distracting. Take some time to discuss. [00:31:00] Leading. I mean I've been in so many sessions like that, that we end up talking about horoscopes cuz we were asked to like go in the order of our birthdays, right? [00:31:09] So I generally, I say like alphabetical or, or reverse alphabetical by, um, first name or last name. And if you really think a particular order would be helpful, for instance, maybe people for most experience at least experience with something you can say when you get into the breakout rooms, go to chat and put in the. [00:31:27] Of years you have with this, and we'll use that to organize, you know, most experienced, at least experience. But, um, but all that structure is actually, um, it helps people feel like they belong. And I actually think that thoughtful structure is about inclusion. It's about people feeling not just invited, but welcomed into a conversation. [00:31:49] It tells shy people and introverted people and newcomer. and people who maybe you speak a language that's different than the dominant language being used, it tells [00:32:00] them exactly what the rules are. There's no like in crowd knows how to ask questions or how to unmute. Everybody knows everything. So I think we, we, um, we as hosts and facilitators sometime like relinquish our role by saying, you all figure it out, but just like an in-person event, like people thrown together at a bar. [00:32:24] Often find the people they wanna meet. But when you structure an event at a bar and you've got name tags and people who are welcoming, you've got activities, you have people in, you know, interacting and engaging with each other. , that little bit of structure is what leads people to find each other, not just the randomness. [00:32:41] And I think online we need the similar structure to help people really find value in those breakout room discussions and wanna stay in touch. Everybody wants to find their people. Nobody wants to feel like they're the only one in the room having this challenged problem, identity, whatever it is. So I, I love [00:33:00] breakout rooms for that reason. [00:33:00] I think it provides so much community building. and then you bring them back. And I think an important part of, of breakout rooms is thinking about what kind of debrief. And by default, a lot of times the debrief is just how people use the raised hand feature. Um, or worse, worse than that would be go ahead and unmute if you have anything to say. [00:33:20] I'm like in person. You would never be like, all right folks, just start talking . It's just so weird that we do that online all the time. Um, so I would say alternate between sometimes having people raise their hand, which is self nominat. Sometimes have people write things in chat sometimes, uh, have them write things in chat, but wait to hit enter until you tell them. [00:33:39] I call that a, uh, waterfall debrief. Um, sometimes I have people nominate someone in chat mm-hmm. . So like, who shared a really great win, nominate them and let's, uh, get them to share with all of us. Um, there's just so many ways. To bring lots of voices in, not always the same. Like I'm an outgoing extrovert. [00:33:56] I, Sarah, I will raise my hand, answer a question, not knowing what the question [00:34:00] even was. , like, I'm like, sure. Mm-hmm. . But then you have people like me dominated in conversations the whole time. So the structure allows someone else to grab the mic or to be invited to grab the mic if they choose. [00:34:12] Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. [00:34:13] I'm grabbing the, I'm grabbing the mic. I'm the introvert in the room. . Um, yeah. So many good things. Two, no, I'm just gonna kind of reiterate the main takeaways for me. So first of all, yeah, the clear instructions when you send people into the breakout room and, and also what I really loved is, and what we haven't been doing in my Humane Marketing Circle community is defining ahead of time who goes first. [00:34:43] I think that is a big aha for me to really say. . Yeah. Take away that awkwardness like, you know, do you wanna go first? No, you go first. So it's like, okay. It's already clear who goes first. What my community recently asked me is actually to have two [00:35:00] minutes of reflection before they go into a breakout room so that they can. [00:35:05] Kind of think about because we kind of go deep into the, in, in the breakout rooms. But the other thing I learned right now from you is to, for them to already have my answer, um, so that it, like you said, it's a story, right? So they come in with a story, um, And I love that. One thing you didn't mention, uh, that I'm doing, and you'll tell me what you think about that is. [00:35:30] So I usually, for now, I don't go into the breakout rooms just because I, I don't have another person to help me manage it. So I'm the one sending the messages into the breakout rooms saying, okay, it's time to switch next person, you know. The three or four minutes to talk. Do you use that? Is that a good practice or do you [00:35:50] Robbie: Yeah, so, um, there's a couple things that I didn't, I didn't mention that. [00:35:54] Made me think about. One is there's a, there's a setting when you, there's an option when you set up the breakout [00:36:00] rooms that will put a countdown clock on the top. Right? Right. So it's really helpful to turn that on Uhhuh because then when everyone gets in, they know they have 10 minutes and they know how much time is remaining. [00:36:10] Um, helps 'em divide the time up equally. It helps them. Wrap their conversation up and at the end of that 10 minutes, my recommendation is to change. To be a 15 second countdown clock is default. 60 minutes. 60 seconds. Mm-hmm. But if you're watching the time countdown, and then suddenly you have a minute, there's this moment of almost walk awkward walk. [00:36:29] Awkward is when you say a big goodbye to someone at a restaurant and then discover we're both going in the same direction to your cars . That's. in person, but similarly, like you get to this point where everyone's like, all right, great, see you. Oh, 60 seconds. And then some people leave. Some people are like, oh, I have a whole nother thing. [00:36:47] I think I can squeeze in 60. Like it just, you know. So you're the [00:36:51] Sarah: countdown. It's better to have less time [00:36:53] Robbie: actually. Like Yeah, just get like, okay, we're wrapping up, we're coming back like we had, you got your 10 minutes, [00:37:00] then come back. Or to tell people, I mean, I guess if you wanted 'em to keep the 60 seconds, you can say, It's gonna be, you know, I guess just give people clear instructions. [00:37:08] Yeah. Um, and then, yes, there's a couple of ways to broadcast into the rooms. One is text only, and I, that's like walking by with a sign. Like if you were at an in-person event, you'd be walking by with a sign that said two minutes. You know, and you wouldn't say anything. You would just walk by and try to catch. [00:37:24] Not everyone would see it. You might be holding the sign behind some people's heads. Right. It's a very small font at the top. Then they have broadcast. and that is a lot more jarring if you wanted to use it. I think you need to tell people in advance, um, that you're going to say switch because it's a voice [00:37:42] Sarah: outta nowhere. [00:37:42] I never used it cuz I thought like, that is so odd if all of a sudden [00:37:46] Robbie: they hear my voice. Now, if you only had two people and it was very clearly like, you know, pairing and then switch, I could see cuz again would you in person like ring a bell and call out. Okay folks switch like [00:38:00] if you would. Think about like, yes, it's disruptive. [00:38:04] Now the problem is if you, if you have three people you don't know when they switched, like it's not as exact as science. And then there's also a way to broadcast an image, a video, or um, like a slides, like anything you can put on your screen, you can broadcast that. , um, that would be interesting to do if you had facilitators in the rooms and you wanted everyone to go through this content at the same pace. [00:38:26] You would be advancing the slides based on a certain increment of time. Facilitators would then be sort of taking questions, um, and. You would know that all the rooms were kind of moving through the content at the same pace, at the same amount of time for q and a at the end, and you'd be managing that. [00:38:44] They wouldn't be able to forward it, they wouldn't be able to annotate on it. But it is a way to like share the question. Again, it's disruptive in the sense that suddenly there's this thing on their screen mm-hmm. , um, that's, that's blocking some of them. Although they're, it's funny because the people are gonna be, uh, actually [00:39:00] over here in the image over here if they have a side by side set up. [00:39:03] So, but, um, but generally, yeah, the broadcast messaging, I would say like a two minute warning is usually really useful, like a halfway through two minutes left. But, um, the countdown clock up here is, is really, really helpful for most. . [00:39:17] Sarah: Yeah, I'll start using that. I haven't used that. I didn't know it existed. [00:39:20] And, and so thanks to your checklist, I now know where it is. So, so, um, yeah, we're coming to the end and, and so let's not forget to mention your checklist, but we started with the beginning. We went through the, you know, breakout rooms and all of that. And you said in the design, it's so important to also think. [00:39:40] you know, how are we gonna end this? So what is a good ending? What is, do you use any rituals or, um, yeah. You mentioned pictures, I think in one of the tips as well where you kind of take a screenshot of everybody. What are some good ideas for ending [00:39:56] Robbie: calls? Well, I think a lot of times calls end [00:40:00] with, well, we don't really have any time for anymore questions. [00:40:04] Like, and that's it. So if it's a presentation, I think it's really smart to. like two minutes. The end where you say, you know, oh, okay. Let me just, um, you know, those were great questions. Lemme just share some closing thoughts and then you have like the reiteration of your main point. Not, not new information, but like, it could be a reiteration of your main point. [00:40:26] It could be call to action or here are some next steps, or Here's what's coming up. , but you make sure that the, you know, if you're hosting, you give the mic back to the speaker, you thank them, you let them have two minutes, and then you take it back and say like, thank you. Here's what's happening next. So we just, you wanna think about having kind of a close, um, that isn't just, you know, wa wa we're out of time and, um, and, and gets people thinking about what do they do with this next, I, I like to do something I call calendaring, connecting, collaborating, and I do this both [00:41:00] in person. [00:41:01] as well as online when I design calendaring. Connecting, collaborating. So calendaring is you ask everyone to take a minute to think about one thing they can do in the next two weeks that they will help them move forward on this topic. And you say, great, now that you have that idea, open your calendar on your phone and find a time in the next two weeks that you're gonna be able to do that. [00:41:22] And like, look at your notes from today and. Connecting is if you're not quite sure what to do or you need some help, uh, look around to the people that you've been meeting with today and in breakout rooms and me and other. Here are some other people and resources. These are the people that you can sup, get support from. [00:41:39] Write down their names. Make sure that in those two weeks you also reach out to some of them and say hello and build a connection or deepen a connection. And then collaboration is that we're not doing any of this alone. I'd love to know. What happens next? Um, you know, lean into each other together. We're gonna build great things. [00:41:56] So, you know, this is your community. And I think that [00:42:00] particularly if, if your goal is to move people from inspiration to action, having that kind of ritualistic closure is helpful because, You know, some people will take tons of notes, but it's, it's useless without a plan. And others are just listening and not taking notes and so they, they also don't have a plan. [00:42:17] And so building some time in, and that could be 10 minutes, that could be a, a, you can really draw that out if you wanted to, or it could be something you do kind of quickly. [00:42:26] Sarah: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I love that. And I love that. , you know, we allow ourselves to have time for that. Uh, and that really needs to be planned into the whole Yes. [00:42:37] Uh, meeting. Right. Oftentimes, like you said, you kind of find yourself just rushed at the end and it's just like, [00:42:43] Robbie: okay, bye. Best content is more. Yeah. I think too often we try to cram a lot in, I wrote my first book in order to stop doing two hour programs. Mm-hmm. , like I had been doing this two hour talk for years and years and years, and I thought if I had a book, , I could say, oh, and you [00:43:00] can read more about that in my book and not have to say every single word. [00:43:04] And so similarly today, like we're not, I haven't, I mean, literally, I almost, you know, 20% of the book is on breakout Ri, so we, we scratch the surface of it, but it gets people the information to realize that there is a new way and then they can go investigate and DIY on their own or seek out support if they need it. [00:43:22] But yeah, I, I, there's a lot of. [00:43:25] Sarah: Yeah. And since you said less content is more. Right. I think also, uh, a point you made is like, don't, don't hide behind the slides. Mm-hmm. , especially if, if we're talking about community calls and, and not, you know, some kind of corporate settings. So definitely, yeah. That's one big one for me. [00:43:46] It's like yeah, the, whenever you can show up on the camera and not behind the slide. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Wonderful. Well, please do share, uh, again, the name of your [00:44:00] book and that, uh, p d f that people can download and look at your videos to go and dive deeper. [00:44:07] Robbie: Yeah. So, um, the book is called Break Out of Boredom, low Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Events. [00:44:14] Uh, it is gonna be published, uh, later this week. So I'm gonna just tell you if you go to breakout of boredom.com. , um, after March 5th or sixth, the, the link will be live and ready to go. Um, building a huge launch team right now, so reach out. If you're interested in being part of that, I'd love a review and the videos that you're mentioning, it sounds like you've done a good job diving into them. [00:44:38] they're available@robbiesamuels.com slash videos, and they're also some of the bonus content. So the book has a lot of free bonus content and the videos, which are 30. Strategy videos and my no more bad zoom settings checklist. Those are, um, one of, I think 10 or 11 resources that are, um, sort of bonus content [00:45:00] that goes with the book, though, all that's available at the breakout of boredom.com. [00:45:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Robbie. I always have one last question that I ask all my gifts and that is, what are you grateful for today or [00:45:13] Robbie: this. , my wife , she's amazing. Uh, she actually recently got laid off and wasn't feeling well. And yet, despite both those challenges, has been an incredible support. [00:45:24] I've had a very busy, uh, couple of months getting ready for this book, writing and launching at the same time. Um, and she holds our family together and our house together. And she, when we got married, said, you know, , you have higher earning potential than I do cuz you're entrepreneurial. And I said you may regret them saying that [00:45:44] And here we are. Um, it's true. I I am, I've got a business cuz I had someone who really believed in me and makes space for what I'm trying to create. So it's, you all need to thank her because I've been able to do a lot of good for a lot of people, [00:46:00] uh, because there's someone in my life who believes in, what's her name, Robbie. [00:46:03] Sarah: Her name is. Hi Jess. I hope you're listening to this . Wonderful. Thank you so much for taking the time to to meet here. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. So much you could I info this conversation right? I hope you took some notes. Uh, please find out more about Robbie and his work@robbiesamuels.com. And if you didn't take notes, go over to uh, find his checklist@robbiesamuels.com slash videos for his 30 plus Zoom strategy videos and checklists. [00:46:37] Uh, his podcast where I'll be a guest on soon as well, I is called on the schmooze, and you can find it on the schmooze.com. And his book, uh, again, is called Break Out of Boredom, low Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Events. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:46:58] Find out more [00:47:00] at humane.marketing/circle. As I mentioned before, we meet twice monthly on Zoom right now, and our calls are definitely non boring and highly engaging because everyone is heard and seen. So again, humane.marketing. Circle. You find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash 60 and 60 episodes. [00:47:27] Wow, I can't believe it. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human, and. Audiobook fan. Uh, this is just a reminder that marketing like we're human is now also available in audio format on Audible or anywhere else where you get your audiobooks. [00:47:58] Of course, read by [00:48:00] yours. Truly. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the. Speak soon.

Today's conversation fits under the P of Passion If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. (If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps). In today's solo episode, I'll dive into the P of passion, and figuring out your WHY: The 17 Sustainable Development Goals and what they are Why they can help us figure out our WHY How to take those big global goals and apply them to our own personal, human level Why we're sometimes stuck on our journey to finding our why - and what to do in that case And so much more Sarah's Resources (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening! After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast? The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers - a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact. — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Ep 157 [00:00:00] Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more@humane.marketing slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:27] Hello, my friends. Welcome back. Today I'm recording a solo episode, and today's conversation fits under the P of Passion. So the first P, if you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing. [00:02:55] humane.marketing/one [00:03:00] page, the number one and the wordage. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. So in today's solo episode, I'll dive into the P of passion, the first P and um, help you or. Hopefully plant some seeds to help you figure out your why. [00:03:26] I'll be talking about the 17 sustainable development goals and what they are, why they can help us figure out our why. , how to take those big global goals and apply them to our own personal human level. Why we're sometimes stuck on our journey to finding out our why and what to do in that case. Okay. [00:03:52] This is usually the part where I introduce my guest, but since it's just me today, I'll just introduce myself [00:04:00] again. I'm Sarah Z, as you know, the host of this podcast and founder of the Humane Marketing Revolution. I've grown up in this online marketing space, having founded my first LinkedIn consulting business in 2008. [00:04:16] Running and marketing this business for over a decade. Experiencing the rough world out there inspired me to create a global movement that encourages people to bring more empathy and kindness to business and marketing. That is my why. I call myself a hippie turn business coach because I've grown up in a small commun. [00:04:40] Here in Switzerland, which I talk about in my marketing, like we're human book. I also call myself the Mama Bear of our Humane Marketing Circle, our community of change makers and marketers who want to do marketing differently. and are part of this generation of marketers who [00:05:00] cares personality-wise, I'm a non-conformist and do business my way. [00:05:06] Even if sometimes that's, it's hard because everybody else does it differently. And so I have to keep reminding myself, but no, that way doesn't feel good. I'll do it my way. I'm a card caring, introvert and proud. So that's something I knew about myself. Uh, For, yeah, years and years. Um, what I did discover, um, fairly recently, a few years ago, is that I'm also an H S P, so highly sensitive person. [00:05:38] I'm a Capricorn, I'm a generator in the human design. I'm a type four in the Enneagram, and I'm an I N F J in the Meyers Bricks, uh, personality assessments. As I said, I'm like a mama bear. I am gentle but fierce. I do no harm, [00:06:00] but I take no shit either , so I really feel like this mama bear in front of the cave who's, you know, really protect, protecting her cubs. [00:06:10] That's how I feel like with my clients and, and the humane marketing circle. I'm extremely loyal and all my one-on-one clients have become good friends. So well, that's my self introduction for today. So with that, let's jump right in and talk about this idea of using the 17 sustainable development goals for or to help us find our Y. [00:06:37] So recently on a discovery call for the marketing like we're human program. A future participant asked me about the why. So the discovery of our why is part of the first module of that program and the P of passion. So she told me that she'd been on other programs where they just told her to, you know, figure [00:07:00] out your why. [00:07:01] and she's like, well, yeah, obviously we all kind of know now that this is part of, you know, our business and, and our marketing. But she's like, well, I felt so lost. How, how do you go about this, Sarah? Like, are you gonna help us , you know, beyond just telling us, well, now go figure it out, because it's obviously easier said than done. [00:07:25] And so that's when I mentioned that, uh, I use. Uh, among other things I used the 17 sustainable development goals to look at our why and, um, that's what I want to explain in this episode. . So let's start with the definition of the 17 sustainable development goals. So the 17 SDGs were adopted by the United Nations in 2015 as a universal call to action to end poverty, [00:08:00] protect the planet, and ensure that all people enjoy peace and prosperity. [00:08:05] So these are big goals on, you know, government. Type of goals, uh, country level type of goals. But again, I'll show you in a bit how we can use them and apply them to our human level. So let me read you the 17 sustainable Development goals. First one is no poverty. The second one is zero hunger. Third is good health and wellbeing. [00:08:30] Four is quality education, five is gender equality. Six is clean water and sanitation. seven is affordable and clean energy. Eight is decent work in economic growth. Nine is industry innovation and infrastructure. 10 is reduced inequalities. 11 is sustainable cities and communities. 12, responsible consumption and production.[00:09:00] [00:09:00] 13, climate action. 14. Life below water, 15, life on land. 16, peace, justice, and strong institutions. And 17 partnerships for the goals. So these. The 17 sustainable, uh, development goals. You can also go actually over to, uh, the global goals.org/goals website and, uh, have a look at the more information about these 17 goals. [00:09:33] And it comes with, um, kind of nice pictograms for each of the goals. So, As solo printers, coaches, healers, service professionals, these goals can obviously sound huge and overwhelming. And we might be thinking, well, how does this apply to me? What kind of difference can I make on my little one-on-one working with clients type [00:10:00] of business? [00:10:01] But the idea is not to make one of these goals. Our goal. Instead, what I ask participants of the marketing like we're human program, is to look at these goals and think about which one or two most resonate with them or with their ideal clients. What's the one thing that's most important to them, or in this case to you, dear listener, is that gender equality? [00:10:31] Is it good health and wellbeing? Is it to end poverty? , which one, of course, they're all important, but as change makers, we usually resonate more with one than others. For me, for example, it's decent work and economic growth. , so that's number eight. And the second one would be partnerships for the goals. So yeah, I noticed [00:11:00] that for myself, I want to make a difference and change the way we market so that we can use business as a lever for good. [00:11:09] Of course, I also care about zero hunger. , but it's just not in my zone of genius. I have no experience in that field. Um, I care strongly, but it's not where I can personally make an impact given the, yeah, the background and experience that I have. and my ideal clients struggle with sharing their gifts and therefore can use my help so that we all generate more economic growth together. [00:11:40] So that's why I feel strongly about the goal, decent work and economic growth. I feel like I, we, if we all had decent work that we love, the world would be a better place. business really can help to make a change for good. So something [00:12:00] that I want to promote. I also believe in a new perspective on work, which is focused on being more human and creating lives instead of just working and working and hustling and all of that. [00:12:16] and knowing more about myself. So that's has more to do with the personal power. P I'm a Capricorn, and so work in its largest sense is my topic. That's what I'm here to do in this lifetime. Um, . I just notice as much as I want to go into other topics and they do help me, you know, kind of with this work life balance, um, connecting with nature, being more artistic. [00:12:47] But what it comes down to for me is always kind of like related to the, yeah, the. , the making a living, right? [00:13:00] The, the, the money as well. The Capricorns are about work and so maybe why I am here at this moment of time, um, is also to help change this relationship to work. So I think that's why this, uh, number eight goal, decent work in economic growth, uh, speaks to me more than others. [00:13:23] So I hope you see how I had to really extrapolate from their descriptions of the un description of the goal and make it mine, because frankly, I don't really care about economic growth. Like that is so foreign language for me. But what I do care about is the way. Make a life for ourselves. The way, um, you know, justice like that, the, that, that there is enough, uh, work and that there is enough income for everybody and that work doesn't have to be such a, [00:14:00] A rough experience for us that we can care more about our work and our business and, and that business again also becomes part of the change, that as entrepreneurs, we can participate in making the world a better place. [00:14:18] So, . That's why it makes sense that my why is to bring more empathy and kindness to the business and marketing world. I hope, uh, my example kind of helps you understand how I look at these goals. They basically show us all the problems we have in our world right now. All the things that are broken and need fixing. [00:14:42] to me that's one way to find our why, find something that's bigger than ourselves that we have experienced that didn't work for us, that frustrates us, and that we want to fix. Again, I'm taking my example, is like I've been in this online [00:15:00] marketing world, business world for, you know, over a decade and it just did not work for me because I felt like. [00:15:08] You know, it's just business. Business is just business. It's not personal. That's what I always heard. And, and that just didn't no longer work for me. I'm like, no, this needs to be different. There needs to be a place for empathy and kindness in business and marketing. So that's the bigger thing. That's what, you know, keeps me going to create that change. [00:15:29] That is my why. And so it's bigger than me. Um, Because I'm not just doing it for myself, I'm really doing it kind of like, well, that's the small change I want to make. Um, and I'm not saying that's an easy process. It really isn't. It wasn't easy for myself. I, again, something I talk about in the, in the book. [00:15:55] Um, and it's not easy for the participants of my program [00:16:00] either. It, I call it the grown zone. Uh, you know, you're. Rumbling. Um, again, , the, the, the three parts of the marketing like we're human book is rumble, uh, rise and resonate. And so discovering who you are, discovering your why really is that rumbling and [00:16:22] That's why it's also the grown zone where you're just like, Oh, this is so hard. Um, and especially it's super hard for participants who come out of a corporate experience because frankly, in corporate life, nobody ever asks you what your why is. You are just basically, if the company has a why, you're like, well, this is your why now. [00:16:47] But oftentimes, companies, corporates don't have a why either. So you. You know, this is totally new. And so, yeah, it, it's not an easy process, but once you have it, [00:17:00] everything just makes sense. Everything you do is aligned with why you do it, and you keep showing up no matter how hard things are, because you kind of have this north star at your following because it comes from within as well, right? [00:17:16] It's not this, it's not this exterior thing like, I think oftentimes clients, I think that having your why is just kind of this one liner that you have to have on your website. And so they're kind of searching for something external where actually it has to come from within and it ha you have to do that in their work so that it's unshakable. [00:17:46] That's why. So, um, , they do always find their why, the participants of the, the program. It's, it's just sometimes it doesn't happen within the 10 weeks of the program. Um, and [00:18:00] you know, you sometimes you just have to plant the seeds, let it go, and then, uh, it will come when the time is ready. So, Um, I do also want to address that, uh, on occasion a person is completely stuck like I was on my journey, and, and that happens usually when the focus is too much on oneself, meaning that there's a lot of unalign that first needs to be fixed before we can go, you know, and, and fix things for others. [00:18:33] It's kind of like this, uh, analogy that we always use with the mask, um, the oxygen mask in the plane. Um, so in other words, we can't pick a why or find our why if we are still broken ourselves. We need to fix ourselves first. So we need to let go of the Y for a bit and continue walking into the labyrinth and rumble [00:19:00] with our story. [00:19:01] Um, again, that's the metaphor I use in the, in the marketing, like we're human book this metaphor of. rumbling while you walk into the labyrinth of your life. Coming to the center, standing in the middle of the labyrinth and rising in that middle, finding out how you are uniquely different, rising above, you know, the, the, the noise, and then walking back out as the new person that resonates with others. [00:19:32] that means, you know, needing to let go of old stories, limiting beliefs, gain confidence in what you're offering, um, and, and believing that that has huge value. So you really need to become whole again. Once you're whole, that's when you can go out and look for that, why that's bigger than yourself. So, um, yeah, it's really this idea.[00:20:00] [00:20:00] fixing ourselves first before trying to come up with a why that's bigger than ourselves. Um, that, that we, that feels co completely overwhelming because we are not whole yet. So, Maybe to, to wrap up again. Um, have a look at these 17 sustainable development goals, even if you are not yet on that journey to look at your why, but, um, it's just an interesting perspective to think about humanity and where we are now and all the big problems. [00:20:38] I think obviously they're formulated in this, in the, you know, terms of, in terms of goals, but really what there are is, these are the big giant problems we have as humanity right now, and that's what we're all trying to fix. Uh, they are doing that on a government level, but everybody counts right now. And so we are doing an ad on the, on [00:21:00] the human level, on the, you know, this is what I care about and this is where I'm gonna make a difference. [00:21:05] And if I'm not. An immediate or direct impact, then I'm helping my clients and they are also, uh, making an impact, right? So it's this ripple effect as well. So have a look at, uh, global goals.org/goals to find out more about each of the goals and hopefully, uh, it gives you an idea and you can pick one or two of those goals that really matter to. [00:21:34] like I said, I'm taking participants of the marketing like we're human program through this process to find their why and then make their way through the rest of the seven piece of the humane marketing, uh, mandala. So the second one is personal power, and then people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership. [00:21:54] And it's a live program with a video course component. and the current cohort is [00:22:00] at the P of product right now. So that's where we're talking about their offering, their service pages on the website and, and all of that. And a new cohort will start in August. So you can have a. A look at the details already on humane.marketing/program, if this resonates and, uh, why not book a chat with me? [00:22:23] I'm wanting to chat with all the participants first, just to see where you're at and if this is a good fit for you. So again, humane.marketing/program. And if you. Just somewhere else in your journey right now. Maybe you already have your why you, you know, all of this. If you're just looking for others who think like you and want to do marketing differently. [00:22:49] then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? Uh, again, it's our community where I'm the Mama Bear and, uh, everybody else is, is a leader in, [00:23:00] uh, in their chair. So you can find out more about that@humane.marketing For slash Circle, you find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash 1 58. [00:23:14] And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offer. Such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for listening today and being a part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. [00:23:40] We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be that change you want to see in the world. Speak.

Today's conversation fits under the P of Passion If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. (If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps). In today's solo episode, I'll dive into the P of passion, and figuring out your WHY: The 17 Sustainable Development Goals and what they are Why they can help us figure out our WHY How to take those big global goals and apply them to our own personal, human level Why we're sometimes stuck on our journey to finding our why - and what to do in that case And so much more Sarah's Resources (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Ep 157 [00:00:00] Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more@humane.marketing slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:27] Hello, my friends. Welcome back. Today I'm recording a solo episode, and today's conversation fits under the P of Passion. So the first P, if you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing. [00:02:55] humane.marketing/one [00:03:00] page, the number one and the wordage. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. So in today's solo episode, I'll dive into the P of passion, the first P and um, help you or. Hopefully plant some seeds to help you figure out your why. [00:03:26] I'll be talking about the 17 sustainable development goals and what they are, why they can help us figure out our why. , how to take those big global goals and apply them to our own personal human level. Why we're sometimes stuck on our journey to finding out our why and what to do in that case. Okay. [00:03:52] This is usually the part where I introduce my guest, but since it's just me today, I'll just introduce myself [00:04:00] again. I'm Sarah Z, as you know, the host of this podcast and founder of the Humane Marketing Revolution. I've grown up in this online marketing space, having founded my first LinkedIn consulting business in 2008. [00:04:16] Running and marketing this business for over a decade. Experiencing the rough world out there inspired me to create a global movement that encourages people to bring more empathy and kindness to business and marketing. That is my why. I call myself a hippie turn business coach because I've grown up in a small commun. [00:04:40] Here in Switzerland, which I talk about in my marketing, like we're human book. I also call myself the Mama Bear of our Humane Marketing Circle, our community of change makers and marketers who want to do marketing differently. and are part of this generation of marketers who [00:05:00] cares personality-wise, I'm a non-conformist and do business my way. [00:05:06] Even if sometimes that's, it's hard because everybody else does it differently. And so I have to keep reminding myself, but no, that way doesn't feel good. I'll do it my way. I'm a card caring, introvert and proud. So that's something I knew about myself. Uh, For, yeah, years and years. Um, what I did discover, um, fairly recently, a few years ago, is that I'm also an H S P, so highly sensitive person. [00:05:38] I'm a Capricorn, I'm a generator in the human design. I'm a type four in the Enneagram, and I'm an I N F J in the Meyers Bricks, uh, personality assessments. As I said, I'm like a mama bear. I am gentle but fierce. I do no harm, [00:06:00] but I take no shit either , so I really feel like this mama bear in front of the cave who's, you know, really protect, protecting her cubs. [00:06:10] That's how I feel like with my clients and, and the humane marketing circle. I'm extremely loyal and all my one-on-one clients have become good friends. So well, that's my self introduction for today. So with that, let's jump right in and talk about this idea of using the 17 sustainable development goals for or to help us find our Y. [00:06:37] So recently on a discovery call for the marketing like we're human program. A future participant asked me about the why. So the discovery of our why is part of the first module of that program and the P of passion. So she told me that she'd been on other programs where they just told her to, you know, figure [00:07:00] out your why. [00:07:01] and she's like, well, yeah, obviously we all kind of know now that this is part of, you know, our business and, and our marketing. But she's like, well, I felt so lost. How, how do you go about this, Sarah? Like, are you gonna help us , you know, beyond just telling us, well, now go figure it out, because it's obviously easier said than done. [00:07:25] And so that's when I mentioned that, uh, I use. Uh, among other things I used the 17 sustainable development goals to look at our why and, um, that's what I want to explain in this episode. . So let's start with the definition of the 17 sustainable development goals. So the 17 SDGs were adopted by the United Nations in 2015 as a universal call to action to end poverty, [00:08:00] protect the planet, and ensure that all people enjoy peace and prosperity. [00:08:05] So these are big goals on, you know, government. Type of goals, uh, country level type of goals. But again, I'll show you in a bit how we can use them and apply them to our human level. So let me read you the 17 sustainable Development goals. First one is no poverty. The second one is zero hunger. Third is good health and wellbeing. [00:08:30] Four is quality education, five is gender equality. Six is clean water and sanitation. seven is affordable and clean energy. Eight is decent work in economic growth. Nine is industry innovation and infrastructure. 10 is reduced inequalities. 11 is sustainable cities and communities. 12, responsible consumption and production.[00:09:00] [00:09:00] 13, climate action. 14. Life below water, 15, life on land. 16, peace, justice, and strong institutions. And 17 partnerships for the goals. So these. The 17 sustainable, uh, development goals. You can also go actually over to, uh, the global goals.org/goals website and, uh, have a look at the more information about these 17 goals. [00:09:33] And it comes with, um, kind of nice pictograms for each of the goals. So, As solo printers, coaches, healers, service professionals, these goals can obviously sound huge and overwhelming. And we might be thinking, well, how does this apply to me? What kind of difference can I make on my little one-on-one working with clients type [00:10:00] of business? [00:10:01] But the idea is not to make one of these goals. Our goal. Instead, what I ask participants of the marketing like we're human program, is to look at these goals and think about which one or two most resonate with them or with their ideal clients. What's the one thing that's most important to them, or in this case to you, dear listener, is that gender equality? [00:10:31] Is it good health and wellbeing? Is it to end poverty? , which one, of course, they're all important, but as change makers, we usually resonate more with one than others. For me, for example, it's decent work and economic growth. , so that's number eight. And the second one would be partnerships for the goals. So yeah, I noticed [00:11:00] that for myself, I want to make a difference and change the way we market so that we can use business as a lever for good. [00:11:09] Of course, I also care about zero hunger. , but it's just not in my zone of genius. I have no experience in that field. Um, I care strongly, but it's not where I can personally make an impact given the, yeah, the background and experience that I have. and my ideal clients struggle with sharing their gifts and therefore can use my help so that we all generate more economic growth together. [00:11:40] So that's why I feel strongly about the goal, decent work and economic growth. I feel like I, we, if we all had decent work that we love, the world would be a better place. business really can help to make a change for good. So something [00:12:00] that I want to promote. I also believe in a new perspective on work, which is focused on being more human and creating lives instead of just working and working and hustling and all of that. [00:12:16] and knowing more about myself. So that's has more to do with the personal power. P I'm a Capricorn, and so work in its largest sense is my topic. That's what I'm here to do in this lifetime. Um, . I just notice as much as I want to go into other topics and they do help me, you know, kind of with this work life balance, um, connecting with nature, being more artistic. [00:12:47] But what it comes down to for me is always kind of like related to the, yeah, the. , the making a living, right? [00:13:00] The, the, the money as well. The Capricorns are about work and so maybe why I am here at this moment of time, um, is also to help change this relationship to work. So I think that's why this, uh, number eight goal, decent work in economic growth, uh, speaks to me more than others. [00:13:23] So I hope you see how I had to really extrapolate from their descriptions of the un description of the goal and make it mine, because frankly, I don't really care about economic growth. Like that is so foreign language for me. But what I do care about is the way. Make a life for ourselves. The way, um, you know, justice like that, the, that, that there is enough, uh, work and that there is enough income for everybody and that work doesn't have to be such a, [00:14:00] A rough experience for us that we can care more about our work and our business and, and that business again also becomes part of the change, that as entrepreneurs, we can participate in making the world a better place. [00:14:18] So, . That's why it makes sense that my why is to bring more empathy and kindness to the business and marketing world. I hope, uh, my example kind of helps you understand how I look at these goals. They basically show us all the problems we have in our world right now. All the things that are broken and need fixing. [00:14:42] to me that's one way to find our why, find something that's bigger than ourselves that we have experienced that didn't work for us, that frustrates us, and that we want to fix. Again, I'm taking my example, is like I've been in this online [00:15:00] marketing world, business world for, you know, over a decade and it just did not work for me because I felt like. [00:15:08] You know, it's just business. Business is just business. It's not personal. That's what I always heard. And, and that just didn't no longer work for me. I'm like, no, this needs to be different. There needs to be a place for empathy and kindness in business and marketing. So that's the bigger thing. That's what, you know, keeps me going to create that change. [00:15:29] That is my why. And so it's bigger than me. Um, Because I'm not just doing it for myself, I'm really doing it kind of like, well, that's the small change I want to make. Um, and I'm not saying that's an easy process. It really isn't. It wasn't easy for myself. I, again, something I talk about in the, in the book. [00:15:55] Um, and it's not easy for the participants of my program [00:16:00] either. It, I call it the grown zone. Uh, you know, you're. Rumbling. Um, again, , the, the, the three parts of the marketing like we're human book is rumble, uh, rise and resonate. And so discovering who you are, discovering your why really is that rumbling and [00:16:22] That's why it's also the grown zone where you're just like, Oh, this is so hard. Um, and especially it's super hard for participants who come out of a corporate experience because frankly, in corporate life, nobody ever asks you what your why is. You are just basically, if the company has a why, you're like, well, this is your why now. [00:16:47] But oftentimes, companies, corporates don't have a why either. So you. You know, this is totally new. And so, yeah, it, it's not an easy process, but once you have it, [00:17:00] everything just makes sense. Everything you do is aligned with why you do it, and you keep showing up no matter how hard things are, because you kind of have this north star at your following because it comes from within as well, right? [00:17:16] It's not this, it's not this exterior thing like, I think oftentimes clients, I think that having your why is just kind of this one liner that you have to have on your website. And so they're kind of searching for something external where actually it has to come from within and it ha you have to do that in their work so that it's unshakable. [00:17:46] That's why. So, um, , they do always find their why, the participants of the, the program. It's, it's just sometimes it doesn't happen within the 10 weeks of the program. Um, and [00:18:00] you know, you sometimes you just have to plant the seeds, let it go, and then, uh, it will come when the time is ready. So, Um, I do also want to address that, uh, on occasion a person is completely stuck like I was on my journey, and, and that happens usually when the focus is too much on oneself, meaning that there's a lot of unalign that first needs to be fixed before we can go, you know, and, and fix things for others. [00:18:33] It's kind of like this, uh, analogy that we always use with the mask, um, the oxygen mask in the plane. Um, so in other words, we can't pick a why or find our why if we are still broken ourselves. We need to fix ourselves first. So we need to let go of the Y for a bit and continue walking into the labyrinth and rumble [00:19:00] with our story. [00:19:01] Um, again, that's the metaphor I use in the, in the marketing, like we're human book this metaphor of. rumbling while you walk into the labyrinth of your life. Coming to the center, standing in the middle of the labyrinth and rising in that middle, finding out how you are uniquely different, rising above, you know, the, the, the noise, and then walking back out as the new person that resonates with others. [00:19:32] that means, you know, needing to let go of old stories, limiting beliefs, gain confidence in what you're offering, um, and, and believing that that has huge value. So you really need to become whole again. Once you're whole, that's when you can go out and look for that, why that's bigger than yourself. So, um, yeah, it's really this idea.[00:20:00] [00:20:00] fixing ourselves first before trying to come up with a why that's bigger than ourselves. Um, that, that we, that feels co completely overwhelming because we are not whole yet. So, Maybe to, to wrap up again. Um, have a look at these 17 sustainable development goals, even if you are not yet on that journey to look at your why, but, um, it's just an interesting perspective to think about humanity and where we are now and all the big problems. [00:20:38] I think obviously they're formulated in this, in the, you know, terms of, in terms of goals, but really what there are is, these are the big giant problems we have as humanity right now, and that's what we're all trying to fix. Uh, they are doing that on a government level, but everybody counts right now. And so we are doing an ad on the, on [00:21:00] the human level, on the, you know, this is what I care about and this is where I'm gonna make a difference. [00:21:05] And if I'm not. An immediate or direct impact, then I'm helping my clients and they are also, uh, making an impact, right? So it's this ripple effect as well. So have a look at, uh, global goals.org/goals to find out more about each of the goals and hopefully, uh, it gives you an idea and you can pick one or two of those goals that really matter to. [00:21:34] like I said, I'm taking participants of the marketing like we're human program through this process to find their why and then make their way through the rest of the seven piece of the humane marketing, uh, mandala. So the second one is personal power, and then people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership. [00:21:54] And it's a live program with a video course component. and the current cohort is [00:22:00] at the P of product right now. So that's where we're talking about their offering, their service pages on the website and, and all of that. And a new cohort will start in August. So you can have a. A look at the details already on humane.marketing/program, if this resonates and, uh, why not book a chat with me? [00:22:23] I'm wanting to chat with all the participants first, just to see where you're at and if this is a good fit for you. So again, humane.marketing/program. And if you. Just somewhere else in your journey right now. Maybe you already have your why you, you know, all of this. If you're just looking for others who think like you and want to do marketing differently. [00:22:49] then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? Uh, again, it's our community where I'm the Mama Bear and, uh, everybody else is, is a leader in, [00:23:00] uh, in their chair. So you can find out more about that@humane.marketing For slash Circle, you find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash 1 58. [00:23:14] And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offer. Such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for listening today and being a part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. [00:23:40] We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be that change you want to see in the world. Speak.

Today's conversation fits under the P of Promotion. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. (If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps). My guest today is Teresa Heath-Wareing. Teresa Heath-Wareing is an online business, marketing & mindset expert who works with business owners from across the world, helping them to build a business and life they love. As well as inspiring members to dream big and set ambitious long term business goals, Teresa equips them with practical actionable steps to get them closer to their goals. Her holistic emphasis on the whole business, and the mindset of the business owner, enables her members to navigate the world of running a business with Teresa as their biggest cheerleader. An international best-selling author, award winning speaker and TEDx speaker. She is the host of the Your Dream Business Podcast.Teresa is recognised alongside some of the world's digital marketing thought leaders and is widely regarded as one of the UK's leading marketing influencers. In this episode, you'll learn about humane listbuilding as well as... How to get started with building an email list How to get people on to your list, in a saturated market where we all have too much email already? How to create a 'Freebie' worth downloading What about the tech? What do we send out once people downloaded our Freebie? How do we make Email Marketing humane and non pushy? And so much more Teresa's Resources Teresa's Mindset Hacks for Small Business Owners Teresa's Website Your Dream Business Podcast Connect with Teresa on: LinkedIn Facebook Twitter Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening! After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast? The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers - a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact. — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Ep 156 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle. And renegade author of marketing like We're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom Circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti. On the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. My Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. [00:01:47] I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:31] Hello friends. Welcome back. I hope you're doing well. Before we dive into today's conversation, I just want to take a moment to tell you a bit about what's new in our community. The Humane Marketing Circle. As you know, that's the community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who are ready for something different, something new, a new way of marketing, and a new way of business building really. [00:02:58] and also a new [00:03:00] way of being in community. So here's how our community calls work. In the first half of the call, members bring their questions and we have a conversation about what works for us in marketing. For example, on one of the last calls we talked about ai. We share tools, but also discuss benefits, dangers, and overall ethical questions that AI brings up. [00:03:27] And in the second half of the call, we always go into breakout rooms to have a more intimate conversation with another heart-centered entrepreneur, which is super valuable to have kind of this one-on-one or two-on-one feedback. And this month's topic is the P of Personal Power, and we discuss how. Our core values make us and our business really different from our peers. [00:03:55] So that's the format of our calls. And in [00:04:00] 2022 we came together once per month for a call. But now in 2023 we have two monthly meetings and one of the calls is hosted by me, the other call is hosted by one of our ambassador team members in turn. So there's a small team of ambassadors, circle members who are now have stepped up and are now hosting these calls in turn. [00:04:24] And I'm just so happy to see that taking place cuz that was exactly my vision for the Humane Marketing Circle. Kind of this responsibility of the members stepping up. That means we get even more opportunity to bring our questions and learn from everyone. We're also currently transitioning to our new community platform on Cajabi, and it really looks great and has all the features that we were missing on Trello, which was the tool that we used to use before. [00:04:59] And so that [00:05:00] new platform helps us stay connected with each other, in between the calls, hold each other accountable with challenges, messaging between members and so much more. And really, I resisted this for a long time because it's just not my zone of genius to kind of facilitate these online platforms or, or groups. [00:05:22] But the members have asked for it. And so we're creating it. And actually to help me with the facilitation of this community, this online community, I also just hired a community facilitator. So not to be confused with a social. Manager who's just posting questions and, and you know, visuals and quotes and things. [00:05:46] But really, Eddie that's the name of the great guy that we hired as a community facilitator. His main role is to facilitate the interactions between members, nurture [00:06:00] relationships, and help people get answers within that online community. And Eddie studied this, so he studied community design and I'm, yeah, I'm really super excited to have him on board. [00:06:14] The best thing right now is that if you join right now, the price is still at the same low $37 per month, after a $7 for seven day trial. So you can, will also just check us out to see it. Probably join just before one of the calls to get that live interaction and see if we're the right fit for you. With the second monthly call. [00:06:39] And once the Cajabi community is fully developed and active, I'll bring the rate back up to 47 per month. But for the next few weeks, it will remain at 37 per month. And that's lifetime. So if you join now, that will always be your monthly rate. So now is a good [00:07:00] time to join us and build this different way of marketing together. [00:07:05] Well that's why we're calling it a A revolution. A humane revolution. So if you'd like to be supported by a group of like-minded individuals, I call them the quietly rebellious entrepreneurs, they're also all deep think. So if that's your kind of people that you want to hang out with and learn from and share with, then check out the details at humane.marketing/circle. [00:07:34] Okay, back to the show. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion. And if you are already regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, big warm welcome. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one-page marketing plan with the humane marketing [00:08:00] version of the seven Ps of marketing@humane.marketing slash one page, the number one and the word page. [00:08:08] And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. . So my guest today is Teresa Heath Waring, and she is an online business marketing and mindset expert who works with business owners from across the world, helping them to build a business and life they love, as well as inspiring members to dream big and set ambitious long-term business goals. [00:08:37] Teresa equips them with Practic. Actionable steps to get them closer to their goals. Her holistic emphasis on the whole business and the mindset of the business owner enables her members to navigate a world of running a business with Theresa as their biggest cheerleader, an international bestselling author, award-winning speaker and [00:09:00] TEDx speaker. [00:09:00] She is the host of your dream business podcast, which where I used to be a guest as well. And Theresa is recognized alongside some of the world's digital marketing thought leaders and is widely regarded as one of the UK's leading marketing influencers. . In today's episode, I asked Teresa to come onto the Humane Marketing Podcast to talk about Humane List building. [00:09:27] Theresa and I discussed the following topics, how to get started with building an email list, how to get people onto your list in a saturated market where we all have too much email already, how to create a freebie really worth downloading. How about the tech that so many people are afraid of what to send out once people actually downloaded our freebie and our on our email list, and how do we make email marketing humane and non-pushy [00:10:00] and so much more? [00:10:01] So let's just dive right in. Here's Theresa and me talking about humane list building. . Hi Theresa. I'm so excited for our conversation. [00:10:13] Teresa: Yay. Thanks for being here. Nice too. No, my pleasure. I'm excited too. Wonderful. [00:10:18] Sarah: So we could have had. So many topics to talk about, right? Mm-hmm. . But when we first chatted I was like, well, you just finished one of your list building challenges. [00:10:29] And so I was like, oh, I think that is a good one. And we actually met on a, what was it called? Exactly, something with Authentic Marketing Summit with Marcy. And, and so I was like, oh, okay, so this is the right person to talk about humane list building. And so that's what I yeah, that's what I think where we can go. [00:10:50] But as I just said offline, I think for most people it's like, okay, that sounds like a good idea to build your email list. [00:11:00] But where do I get started? How do I get started? Yeah. So maybe just tell us a little bit about who you are and then as you can tell, We have a habit here to just dive in. [00:11:12] That is and go into the [00:11:13] Teresa: topic. I have no problem with that. So I am a a business owner, an online business owner, a speaker, a podcaster, an author. But basically I help amazing business owners, predominantly women. Not that I only work with women, but I seem to attract a lot of women who are trying to create a business and life that actually works for them and their season of life, and isn't something that they've looked at that some experts told them, it's gotta be this way, or you've gotta win this much, or you've gotta charge this much, or you've gotta earn seven figures and you've gotta do it online. [00:11:49] It's about understanding who they are and what they want and what's important to them and their season of life, because we all have other people in our world and other things in our world, and we need to [00:12:00] make sure that our business balance with those things so that we're creating. Not this monster that actually we end up going, this is not what I want to do. [00:12:09] Mm-hmm. we create something that we're going to love. So I do that and I do it in a variety of ways and, and those ways include more of a mindset, kind of motivational, inspirational side. But also I'm incredibly practical because of the fact of, I have 18 years experience in marketing now, which is a really long time. [00:12:30] And I have worked with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of business owners during that time. . I know that sometimes you need the motivation and the inspiration and the mindset and the personal development, and sometimes you just need someone to give you a straight answer. So hopefully that's what I bring with both. [00:12:48] And one of the things that I talk a lot about and one of my, my key things I guess, that I teach on is list building. And it's so important because no matter what [00:13:00] role I've been in and I've been in, as you can imagine, many, many, many different marketing roles from, you know, heading up corporate marketing for Land Rover UK to working with a teeny tiny company that has no budget and I have to do everything. [00:13:12] So I've kind of done it all. And one thing that has never really gone away, and in fact in my mind is just going to strength to strength is email marketing. Mm-hmm. , and I think probably a few. Years back when social media really kicked in, maybe, gosh, even now. Well, I started my business eight years ago and it was probably at that point it was really getting good for business. [00:13:36] I think people thought, oh, well we have all these new amazing ways I'm gonna do this and I don't need to think about some of these old school ways. But actually that's moved. Email has moved with social media and with technology. And when you are in marketing or when, well, whether you have a business or whatever it is, and you're trying to market more options are better than less always.[00:14:00] [00:14:00] So it's so important to make sure that you've got that email list or you have another way to contact them. And the other key thing is that often, if. Communicating with your clients or your per perspective customers through social media. You don't own that platform. That platform is not you. Yours, you are marketing on borrowed ground. [00:14:17] So basically you are marketing on something that doesn't belong to you. And at any point, as we well know, because Instagram changes like the wind, that they can change something and it completely affects everything. And at the moment, you know, and I'll openly talk about stuff myself, but my own Instagram is terrible at the moment. [00:14:34] Like in terms of the engagement on the post, it's so much worse than it used to be. So we need to make sure we have somewhere else that we can market directly to our customers. So in terms of getting started, it's a couple of things, and this is why I think so many people get put off by it because it can feel overwhelming. [00:14:52] there's a few things you have to think about first. First is how are you gonna email them? And this is the bit that no one wants to think about cuz this is the [00:15:00] tech. But ultimately you can't do this without some tech, but it's not big and massive and huge and it's not fancy funnels and clever things. [00:15:11] It's just a case of you need a system that you can add email addresses to and then send an email to those people. Now you can't do it through your normal email, so you can't do it through. . If you know you're using a business address or a Gmail, or it's hosted by Gmail, or you're an Outlook, you can't send them through that. [00:15:29] And the reason you can't do that is, one, they're not designed to do that. And two, you have to have an unsubscribe on a marketing email, and you can't have that. That isn't standard. It has to be standard. So it's much safer and much smarter to get a system. Now, the one I recommend for everyone getting started is mail light. [00:15:49] Lots of people know MailChimp. Mm-hmm. . And I know lots of people are on MailChimp, and they might be like, well, why wouldn't you recommend MailChimp? I describe MailChimp. Not that they would thank me for it but I [00:16:00] describe them as like, A house. So a house that was built a long time ago, and then they had an extension put on, and then they realized they needed more rooms. [00:16:08] They added a bit over here, and then they wanted something over here and then, and basically they've built on, so mail ch MailChimp was there for a really long time, but they've added in all that functionality after the fact. And it just doesn't quite seem to flow right. It doesn't quite seem to like, it's not very intuitive. [00:16:26] It's not particularly easy. There's a couple of really funky, weird things that it does. So for me, someone like Maite who started off basically as if they bought a piece of land and go, right, how are we gonna build this? And then they built it right in the first place because obviously they, they're not that old, whereas MailChimp is old. [00:16:41] So [00:16:41] Sarah: I think that's another fact, like, you know, MailChimp is old or you know, in terms of social media, old, and so they constantly had to adapt. And so that's why it's just house stuck. I kept building on other things. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Where if, if you take a newer company, well they build [00:17:00] with this current circumstances in what we need. [00:17:02] Yes, [00:17:02] Teresa: yes, yes. And obviously there's gonna come a point where, you know, Mala light has to tweak and change and all the others do. And they do always constantly, but it's almost like, it's almost like they wanna start again with MailChimp. But like I said, lots of people use them. But if you haven't chose a system, or even if you are using MailChimp, male light really, really is good. [00:17:21] Very intuitive, really simple to use. But basically you need to. . So like I said, set that up and say, okay, now I've got somewhere where I can put emails in and I can email from Now, whether that's you then taking an email list that you've created in Excel or something like that and literally just putting it across, or whether that's you then creating something called a lead magnet or a content upgrade grade or whatever you wanna call it. [00:17:47] But basically you are creating an incentive to ask them to come onto your list. Right? Because as much as we'd like to think that people wake up one day and go, oh, I wonder if that person that I barely know or just followed on Instagram has an email, is they'd love to get on it. Like that [00:18:00] doesn't happen. [00:18:00] So even though we often have get on our list, on our website or something like that, I think if you honestly asked yourself how many people have opted in through that in the last month, I think most people would be like a few, a handful of people are opting in. If that makes, [00:18:15] Sarah: I'm gonna pause you there, Teresa. [00:18:16] Cause I wanna, before we move on to the opt-in or the freebie or the the lead magnet, I wanna come back to the tech because I think. You know, like you said, so many people will start with MailChimp or, or the question I have since you recommended mail or Light, is that a platform that can grow with you? [00:18:36] You, you would say that, you know, people with big businesses are still able to use? [00:18:42] Teresa: Yes and no. It's a great one to start with and it will certainly grow with most small business owners. Mm-hmm. , it can do an element of the automations. It has some good functionality in it and it's good. However, when I teach my course, I talk about three different platforms. [00:18:58] I talk about main light. If you're just [00:19:00] getting started, if you know how to do emails and you wanna start getting a bit fancy and having some call automations, then I use Active Campaign and it's very. Again, a lot of these platforms though, it's what you're used to. So there are, there's Convert Kit that's very similar. [00:19:15] There's Drip that's very similar, so there are lots of them out there and this is half the problem. Yeah, it's too, too much choice. way too much choice. And then the one I recommend, if you're going all in on an online business and you're having a membership and a checkout and landing pages and all this kind of cool stuff, then from a cost point of view, something like Kajabi could be really good. [00:19:35] Mm-hmm. . So what Kajabi has that the others don't is the facility to do all of that stuff and do it really well. The problem comes, so I currently use Kajabi to host my membership. However, I'm at a point now where I have a guy who builds all my landing pages for me. So I have a tech guy who does all that and they're built on WordPress. [00:19:57] And also I have some cool things like I have a [00:20:00] quiz. And that quiz had to plug into somewhere and Kajabi couldn't handle it. Mm-hmm. . So I've now moved to Active Campaign. I say now it's about a year. So I have active campaign for my emails. I have Kajabi for those other things. But when you, again, when you first get started, if you're going in the online world, the emails can't do. [00:20:19] Kajabi are great, but they can't go to the level the active campaign can do, or I wouldn't say they can. . And therefore at the beginning you don't wanna pay for two systems, which I didn't. I just used Kajabi and I kind of thought it is what it is, you know, I'll just have to go with it. And it was perfectly fine and good enough and capable for the job. [00:20:38] But active campaign now is much cooler. [00:20:41] Sarah: I love that you explained that because I think, yeah, there's one thing is like, okay, I wanna plan big and go big. Mm-hmm. and therefore I'm gonna go for something like, you know, Kajabi. Which was also my move. I went from, actually, I started out with Malechi, then went to AWeber, then went to Active Campaign, and this is over years and [00:21:00] years. [00:21:00] Yeah. And, and then now finally to Kajabi. And just like you, there's a little tiny me piece of me as like regretting the move to Gujabi. Yeah. Because once you're used to something like Active Campaign, which is built only for email. Yes. Then. Cajabi does not do the same job like it. It's just not, so, yeah, all it is to, to explain that, it obviously depends where your business is at. [00:21:26] Malar Light seems like a good place to start and you almost kind of maybe do have to plan that eventually, you know, there's gonna be a [00:21:35] Teresa: move. And like you said, how many of you had, how many have I had? I was male Chimp, then I was Drip cuz I went and did a certification over in Minnesota. Then I did Infusionsoft. [00:21:47] Right. So I went like, that was, and I mean, if you wanna go crazy, I mean Infusionsoft is insane. And then I went Kajabi and now I've added back in Active campaign. Mm-hmm. But like I said, it was just for that l that extra bit of [00:22:00] functionality. If you are sending emails, if you are wanting automations to go. [00:22:05] it will do it. You can do sequences in Kajabi. So it's not that it's a terrible system, but obviously if you just think about it, they are building a system with so many different things. So they can't put all of the focus into just the email side of it. Whereas, like I said, active campaign convert kit, that's all they do, right? [00:22:22] So therefore they can make sure that they've created the best email side they can. Mm-hmm. But again, you know, from a money point of view, you will be absolutely fine just using Kajabi If you are doing an online business, if you're not doing an online business and you at the moment if you just want to send an email or when someone clicks something, you can send an email for that. [00:22:42] Or if someone opts into something and send an email for that male male, a light, this is where I start getting more mixed up. Cuz there are so many, and obviously male to male light are very similar male. A light is perfectly good for that. And you're right, I think. , there will come a point where you go, okay, now I need more. [00:22:58] But at that point, you'll be able to [00:23:00] afford more. Whereas the beauty of starting on something like Maite is the fact that it's so low cost. Mm-hmm. . So even the paid version, the start of the paid version is like $10 a month. Mm-hmm. . Whereas I think probably now because of the size of my list, I probably pay $200 a month fr campaign. [00:23:16] So it's a big, big difference. So like I said, get started in those others and it's a pain to move. I'm not even gonna like, pretend it's not. It is a pain. It is a pain. I mean, it's not impossible. It's not difficult really. It's just the lot of work. And of course the more you have created. So when we went from well, when we went from Infusionsoft to. [00:23:39] Kajabi, that was a pain. And when we went from Kajabi to Active campaign, it took us, well, we haven't even finished, but we spent a solid week working on moving everything across and we haven't even finished. So it's not that it's impossible, it's just that it's a new system. You gotta get used to it and you have to move things across and it will take some time. [00:23:58] So, so yeah. But don't panic [00:24:00] about that. If you're just starting and money is more of the concern. If money's not the concern, then jump straight onto active campaign. Great, fine. Be brilliant. You won't need to use all the functionality necessary straight away, but it will be there when you're ready. But if money's a concern, male light is definitely where I would start. [00:24:15] Awesome. I think that [00:24:16] Sarah: was a great tech focus, you know, and it's like, because sometimes you don't get this information. Like I, like I say, like people just tell you, well, you know, start a, a mailing list. And then they're like, [00:24:27] Teresa: well, wow, which one? Yeah. And there's so many. And I think the other thing I really wanna reassure people is I am not a tech person, like, The reason I know so much about the tech is one, I've used a lot of it myself, but also in my course I identified the fact that that is the one thing that people don't teach. [00:24:45] And that's the one and main stumbling block as to why people don't finish a process. Right? So, you know, they might, so I can obviously talk about, you know, what a lead magnet is and how we use it and what it's good for and some of the key things you need to do in it. [00:25:00] And I can talk about your board onboarding emails. [00:25:02] I can talk about your sequencing, we can talk about what to email them, we can talk about how to get 'em on that email list, which is great and people can get all that. But then the problem is they would look at the tech and some people are great and they're fine, but a lot of people would go a, I dunno what platform to use b I dunno where the hell to start and I dunno how to make this work. [00:25:19] So one of the things I did in the, in the course, and I had to teach myself it in many, many, many systems is I the process that I give them, is the process that I taught them through in the course, and one of my members that came and did it, she, how old is she? She's probably in her early sixties maybe. [00:25:41] And she was like, she'd been in my membership for ages and obviously they get support from me there, but they don't get the course. But she could have asked me any question on any coaching call. That would've been fine. But she just hadn't got round to doing it. It was like, yeah, I know what I need to do. [00:25:55] Haven't quite sorted out the tech. And we did the course and she was dreading the tech bit and we get on [00:26:00] a call and she, cuz we, we do calls alongside the course so I can answer questions and I can literally go, give me your login or open it on screen and let me see and I'll point and go click that button. [00:26:11] And, but she literally came on the call and was like, I could kiss you, literally kiss you. She said, I didn't think for one second I could do that tech side. She goes, and I literally sat there with your screen on one screen and me on another and you were, the video was like, okay, so when you're here, go here and click this. [00:26:29] She goes, and I did. And then you were like, click this and do it. Which I did. She goes and I did it and it's done. And that's the thing, like it's not difficult, but the process is very weird. So again, what's interesting is a lot of the feedback I get is I would never have started where you said to start, right? [00:26:46] And it's because. , I start them at the thank you page, which seems like a really odd place to start. Mm-hmm. . But the problem is when you are setting up a landing page, it'll say, where do you want this to redirect to? And if you haven't got that set up, you can't finish your landing [00:27:00] page. Yeah. So there's all these kind of little quirks that like, because I know the processing, cause I've done the process, it's like, okay, it's not that it's, you can't do it the other way. [00:27:10] It just makes it a lot easier and a lot quicker. Mm-hmm. . So I think, like I said, for me, I don't want people to be sat there going, yeah, it's all right for you, you're tech. I'm not, I'm really not. I just had to learn it. But it means I can teach it and it means that obviously if I will probably talk about it in a layman's way, and I also have the opportunity to have some of these providers come in and do the training on, on that for me. [00:27:32] But I didn't want them to because, because I've, I've taught you to do something very specific. I want you to show how to do that specific thing rather than here's an overview of the system, this is how it works. So yeah, it's. . And like I said, the tech bit's so important. Cause that's a bit that stumbles people. [00:27:49] Yeah. And stops people. [00:27:51] Sarah: But the other thing that you just brought up is, is there's the tech, but then there's also the understanding the process. You know, it's like [00:28:00] Yeah. You have to almost like map it out and maybe Yes. Visually map it out. And so maybe you can just do that for our listeners right now. [00:28:07] Yeah. Like, yeah. Let's start with the, you know what most people call lead magnet? I don't like that language anymore in humane marketing. [00:28:14] Teresa: Cuz it's just like, no, you're right. No, because it doesn't, the visual is not nice, right? No. There's, there's no humane about it. Yeah. Cause it's a lead magnet. Let's [00:28:22] Sarah: call it a, a freebie or I actually call it a signpost where people get to, [00:28:27] Teresa: you know a hand raiser. [00:28:28] That's another thing I call it. It's like handraiser. I like that. Yeah. I love that. I'm interested in it. I wanna know more. Yeah. They raise their hand. [00:28:34] Sarah: So let's start there and then, Talk through the process of what needs to happen [00:28:38] Teresa: behind the scenes in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So at the very beginning, the first thing we talk about is the, the hand raiser, the freebie. [00:28:47] And I keep it simple, so I tell them to choose something. So the first thing we have to do right at the beginning is we have to know who their customer is. And I don't just mean like, you know, what age are they and where do they shop? I mean, like, what [00:29:00] is the thing that they're really struggling with? Get to know them, speak to them, understand them, listen to them and what they've gotta say. [00:29:06] This isn't, you're not just trying to sell someone. And again, that is the point of a hand raiser. It's not a sales tool, which. , I know often can be seen as that way, and ultimately it might lead to a sale. But the idea is you as my perfect customer, as my perfect audience members, part of my community, you have a problem that I can solve because this is where my zone of genius is. [00:29:28] So I create something that addresses your problem and gives you some solutions, and you have to give them something that is good. I have downloaded that many lead magnets. I can't even tell you because this is my passion. This is what I do. Like I will drop into someone's funnel and go through it and look at it all. [00:29:46] and I've downloaded stuff that is useless, absolutely useless. And it's only just a, I want your email address. It's not a genuine, I'm trying to help you. So that's the very first thing we talk about. We need to know [00:30:00] exactly who your people are, what their problem is, and then you need to give me some very good advice to help me with that problem. [00:30:06] But we always start with a PDF download, which I know sounds very unimaginative and there's much better ways to attract your perfect audience, but they're much bigger and more complicated. So I've got a. , it was a very big process to do that quiz and I had an expert help me. So even though it might be like, well, it's just a pdf, we'll make it the best PDF they've ever downloaded, but it is. [00:30:27] So basically we find one problem and we give them five points and we say, this is how I can help you with my five points. Okay. So it's like and one thing that actually always comes up and you know, this podcast has gone for hours, by the way, cuz I can talk about this for literally hours. [00:30:42] Sarah: Well, they'll, they'll just have to come to your [00:30:44] Teresa: course, you know, well love, like, it's not a sales message, but that's, that's what it's [00:30:49] But like, so one of the things we talk about is sometimes the problem that they've got. So let's say I am a coach that helps people who have got imposter syndrome, let's say. That was my business. [00:31:00] Well, the problem is, Possible customers or people I can help might not know they've got imposter syndrome. [00:31:08] Mm-hmm. So what they do is five ways to help you get over imposter syndrome. Well, that's great if I know I've got it, but I don't know I've got it. Mm-hmm. So, one thing, and that's often a mistake, you really choose. So the thing that you need to think about with the lead magnet, with your title, with your, your freebie, and the thing you're offering them is it needs to sing to them. [00:31:27] It needs to, they need to read that and go, that's me. Mm-hmm. . Whereas if I don't know what that is, if I've never heard of the phrase imposter syndrome, but what I might know is my symptoms or what I might know is the problems that I have. So they need to get quite granular with that. So it might be that do you worry that you're gonna get found out one day question mark if I read that, and whether I knew what in Imposs syndrome was or not, and whether I, you know, thought I had it or not. [00:31:54] I would read that and go, yeah, that's me. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . So, but I would only know that and know [00:32:00] that language cause I know my customer really well. So that piece, yeah, that's [00:32:04] Sarah: unfortunately, that's often a problem, especially for coaches, right? Because they're so into their specialty or into their methods that unfortunately they're marketing [00:32:15] Teresa: the method where Yes. [00:32:16] Yeah. And they're not talking to the problem. Yeah. And sometimes people are like, yeah, but I don't wanna be negative. And it's like, it's not that you're being negative, it's that sometimes the only way, you know. So if you rephrase it and said, you know, do you fear that one day you'll be found out? I know it sounds negative, but the point is it resonates cuz that's the kind of thing I might say. [00:32:38] And what's quite nice for me and you, , I've always kind of hoped and thought that this is my superpower, is I'm able to think about who their customer might be and what their customer might say. And sometimes I am a potential customer. Yeah. Sometimes I'd be like, well actually I would never say that. This is what I would say. [00:32:55] Yeah. And it, it inevitably is not the same language because like you said, [00:33:00] when you are an expert in your world, in your field, you are gonna use the right terms. You are gonna think of, like you said, the solution. And the solution is, you know, you've got imposter syndrome and I've got tools to help you with imposter syndrome. [00:33:12] Well, I don't know. I've got that. Mm-hmm . So that's the first thing. Really understanding that customer is key. Coming up with something that is genuinely going to help them, that is genuinely going to fix their problem is the next thing. So like I said, we know downloads can be, excuse me, I'm gonna cough. [00:33:29] I'm so sorry. Yeah. I could feel it building. And I, a sneeze coming as well. I'm so sorry. I never do. That's fine. [00:33:40] Is it gone all good, ? I think so. Hope so. Sorry, sorry, sorry. So like I said, you wanna create that lead magnet, that freebie that is really good quality. So when they get it, it actually gives them something. Don't be scared about giving away too good of stuff. You're talking basics. Okay. So you're not talking like your secret source or your method or your whole, like this is how to do [00:34:00] it, start to finish, but the stuff you're telling them is really good stuff. [00:34:04] So when we're in the process, the very first thing they do is create that thing and we do it in you know, something like Canva or Adobe Express, and they get all the templates and basically they make it look nice and they create this P D F that they've got that they can give someone. Then what we do, And we do everything to get it ready before we go into tech. [00:34:26] Cuz that's the other thing, like I said, once you get into tech, you don't wanna then go, you're halfway through a process, you have to go and write some stuff and by the time you come back you're like, I can't remember where I was or what I was doing. So then what you're going to do from that point is you're gonna think about the words that you want to be on your signup page. [00:34:42] So the page that is the landing page where someone goes and goes, yes, I would like that. So based on what you've written, you write some words on that and there's a format to it and, and there's a way you can do it. But basically you're saying to them, if you have problems with this, this, this, this, or if you're struggling with this, this, this, this. [00:34:58] If you find you are this, this, [00:35:00] this, then. In this download, I'm gonna help you with this, this, this. So then you've got the copy for that and we make sure we've got some images as well. So within the template thing, we create social images and we create images for the landing page. Then you want to start writing your emails that you're going to send to them. [00:35:16] Cuz the minute they download that, you are gonna want to automate some emails. And I think the word automation scares people. It's really not that difficult. It's like when they opt in this form, send them this thing, wait a day, send them this thing, wait two days, send them this thing. So then what we do is we write all our emails and, and again there's like templates to follow and that sort of format. [00:35:37] And we got our, our titles, our subject lines, we've got our preview text, they've got our emails. So basically we have everything ready to roll. Before we go to the tech. So they literally have a Google doc of all their stuff. They have their images, they have their P D F, they have the pictures, the lot and things like as well. [00:35:57] There might be a little blurb about who you are and what [00:36:00] makes you an expert. So then what we do is when we go to the system, the thing that we start with is the, well, you can do a couple of things, but depending on what system you're using and which order it goes in. Because again, it's all different. [00:36:15] But normally you'd build a thank you page first. And the thank you page is a really simple page that acknowledges the fact that they've opted in. And it might tell them things like, make sure you check your spam cuz it might have gone in there. And if you don't get it, email us here. Or if you know you haven't found it, if you wanna link to something else on that page, you can. [00:36:32] You could always say, go and take a look at my website, or I wrote a blog on this, or whatever it is. But normally, and again, when getting started, don't over confuse yourself just. , a plain thank you page that has your logo and a nice image or whatever on it in your font saying Thank you. It's on its way. [00:36:47] And don't forget to shake your junk. So that's on the thank you page. So we'd build that first. Then what we'd probably build next is the email sequence. And again, it can depend on different systems, but you'd need to build that [00:37:00] sequence. So basically this is an automation, and you would say, okay, I want to create an automation. [00:37:05] And you might put the trigger in there. You might put the trigger somewhere else. Again, this is where different systems differ. Depends on the tool. Yeah, it does. But basically you are saying, okay when this thing happens, I want you to, and it can be like, so active campaign. It could be a tag. So when this tag is added, start this and you can decide the tag. [00:37:25] And, and we normally have decided the tag by this point. , you would start the automation. When someone gets this tag, start this thing and it'd like send them an email immediately. And then you put in your copy and your text of the email. The other thing you're gonna need to do is link to the thing that they've got and things like, the one key thing, and I saw this the other day with someone, is I opted in for their thing and they had a huge email and the link was hidden. [00:37:51] Well, they say hidden, but it was amongst a lot of texts of the thing. I actually was trying to die in load. And then there was about another four or five links of various different other things they were trying to tell me [00:38:00] to do. And a 20% off discount if I bought my first thing. And it's like, we too much, too much do too much. [00:38:06] Because then again, you're jumping straight into the sale. And again, that's not humane. That's not, we are coming from a point of serving. We're coming from a point going, I know you struggle with this and I can help because that's what I do and that's what I'm brilliant at. Mm-hmm. And yes, of course we all need to be paid. [00:38:24] And of course there are paid things that you can have. But at that point, that's too early. So the first email is just an email that says, here you go. There's your thing. Like you asked for it. There it is. And I think on the copy it normally says something like, and I'll be in touch in a couple of days to let you see how you got on. [00:38:44] And again, one thing I find, especially with a brand new sequence of someone brand new, tell them what to expect. Mm-hmm. . Okay. So in that first email, say, I'll be back in touch tomorrow, or I'll be back in touch in two days, so that when your email does fall into their inbox, they're not gonna think, oh, [00:39:00] she's hounding me. [00:39:01] Mm-hmm. , because I've already told you that this is what's going to happen. One thing [00:39:05] Sarah: that I really like doing is using numbers and brackets. So one out of five and then they know, okay, this is the first emails, then there's gonna be four more. And so I use that in all the subject lines and people really like it. [00:39:19] I use that also in like mini-series where I'm like, I'm gonna be talking about this topic over five emails. Mm-hmm. , you know that these are coming, right? Yes. So I guess especially in an onboarding series, that would be really helpful [00:39:32] Teresa: for people that like, yes, super helpful. It's a great idea. And like you said, so, and, and I think as well, people are, I know people are struggle with marketing and they really like, you know, they think it's sleazy and slimy and horrible, but as long as people know what to expect from you, it's when they're caught off guard. [00:39:50] It's when you've said to them, I'm gonna email you once a week, or I'm gonna email you once a month and then you send five in two days. Like, that's not okay. That's not. [00:40:00] Alright to do, right? So it's about being really honest and going, this is what I'm going to do. And thinking as well as serving. So I often say, when I generally talk about emails, like you have to ask yourself, who cares you well with anything we do? [00:40:15] Who cares? Like am I giving them something in that email that they're going to want to read? Am I giving them something that is going to be of value to them? Because if all I'm doing is telling them to buy my stuff, that is of no value to them. Now if I'm telling them a story that will give them a lesson or a learning, and then at the end of that email I say, and actually if you want more help with this, I can, and here's how you can get that help, then that's different. [00:40:41] So [00:40:41] Sarah: I think that's important to mention as well, because I know a lot of my clients. And, and I'm sure maybe yours as well. We, we have heart-centered clients and so they're actually, they already know that they want to serve, right? Yes. But it's the actual selling piece that's kind of difficult. And [00:41:00] so just this morning a client said to me that her subscribers told her they don't want more than one message per month. [00:41:06] And I said, I understand that. And that is good that you ask what they want, but you also need to look out for yourself because you are running a business. And so you don't just want to only serve and share great content, you still also need to sell. That's why they are on your email list. So it's finding that balance, [00:41:26] Teresa: right? [00:41:27] It is, it is. And, and like you said, it. For me, again, asking that question is lovely. And I asked it funnily enough just the other day, but I sent three emails a week. Yeah. So, and I asked them, and I said to them, I'm gonna slow down in August. Cause obviously August is our UK summer holiday and I have a daughter and a stepson and you know, hopefully might take a little bit time off at some point. [00:41:48] But for me I was like, so I'm probably gonna send like two emails a week this time. And I, and then, so I said, actually, drop me an email back and let me know what you think about that. And I've had people in the past go, I'd like less [00:42:00] and, and as long as I'm consistent, as long as I told them this is what it's going to be, and I communicate with them and I am thinking of doing less, I'm thinking of maybe just doing two a week on a Wednesday and a Thursday and I will email them going, I've been having a think and I think this is what I'm gonna do and this is why I'm gonna do it. [00:42:16] And, you know, so I think it's that communication and again, treating people like they're real humans. Yeah. Because they are real humans. [00:42:23] Sarah: I think what people get scared because they, the tech is involved and they feel like, Okay, so now this is, you know, the techy part of the business. Yeah. Where nice. It's not, you can still be yourself in these emails and, and Yeah. [00:42:37] Even though you're talking to many people, you're still talking as if you were talking just to one [00:42:43] Teresa: person. I write every email as if I'm talking to one person. Yeah. And, and I personally reply to everyone that responds. Mm-hmm. And I ask them to respond. Mm-hmm. And whether that takes me 20 minutes or three days, I'm the one that responds. [00:42:58] And my team know that they [00:43:00] leave those emails alone because that, and again, I don't have a copywriter. Right. My emails, I write them and I joke that they're probably, they're not award-winning and there's gonna be typos in them. And, and kind of, I'm sorry, but I'm not, because it's like, that's not my zone of genius writing is not necessarily my zone of genius, however, The authenticity of it and the fact of, you want to hear from me so you are going to hear from me. [00:43:24] You are not going to hear from a copywriter who has relayed a story that I've told them. So again, treating it as an additional bit of content, you know, another way to communicate with your audience, but also having that two-way thing and asking them and, and including them in the decision, I think is great. [00:43:42] I do think though, once a month is not enough, nowhere near enough, because like if I said to someone post on social media once a month, and this is the analogy I always give when I get them in the course to go right, how often are you gonna email 'em? What day? And, and initially all of them would go probably once a month. [00:43:59] And then I say to [00:44:00] them, imagine just posting on Instagram 12 times a year. What do you think that would do for the business? Do you think that would mean you get good business? No, of course it wouldn't. And we need to look at emails in a similar way, so, again, it's more about what you're putting in the email than the frequency of the email. [00:44:17] Mm-hmm. . So yeah, so, so we do the sequence emails, we've got digress there. I digressed us. But we do the sequence emails and like I said, the first one is deliver the thing. The second one might be if they're brand new to you, it might be a who you are or normally. The second one for me is, okay, so you had this thing cuz you were struggling. [00:44:34] Have you seen this? So it might be, here's a podcast I did about it. Here's an article I wrote on it. Here's a video I've done on it, but it's helping them further. And then from that point you might introduce yourself, you might explain more about your, what you do, you might then, and some of my email sequences on email, four or five. [00:44:52] But again, you don't have to do this from day one. It gives 'em a video of something that's particularly. Pertinent to what they've downloaded or a [00:45:00] sneak peek into the membership because actually they downloaded a mindset thing and the membership has mindset calls in it. And then, because I have products at the end of it, I might go, if you're interested, actually you might wanna join the club or you might wanna have a look at the club. [00:45:13] And then my last email will say and, and it, this is only cause I'm leading into products that, or a service or whatever. If you are not, then you don't do this. But my last email says, you're not ready. No worries. So basically as well, and the automation is very cool, but I don't teach this. I can teach it to someone who asks, but this is not what I would tell you to get started with. [00:45:31] So for instance, in my funnel, in active campaign, at the end of every email, I have a section in the, in the process that says, did they sign up to the club? If they did, don't send them anything else. If they didn't send them this, did they sign up to the club? If they didn't, don't send them anything else. [00:45:47] If they did, if if they did, don't send 'em anything else. They didn't. And that's what I send them. No worries. That's fine. I see. And that's exactly the [00:45:54] Sarah: thing. You can't do it Cajabi like [00:45:56] Teresa: none of this is no, no, no, it's not right. No. [00:46:00] Yeah. You need a system. And I think, I think. , fairly confident. You can do an element of that in Malechi not Malechi Mailer light [00:46:09] I told you I'd get confused. Yeah, there is an element of that. You can do a mailer light, but you can't do that in Kajabi, which is why again, when switch back, I can afford it. I switched back. Yeah. But again, you know, even saying to at the end, no worries. I've offered you this thing. I think it could be cool, but you don't want it. [00:46:24] And because I very much believe in humane marketing, I don't do close and open on stuff unless it's a course, like build My List where I work with you along it, which means I obviously have to have an intake cuz we all start at the same point. But other than that, my membership is always open, so I just really nicely say at the end, no worries, I'm always here and now you're gonna start getting my regular emails, which, and I tell them what the deal is with the regular emails. [00:46:48] So, so those things. That kind of un onboarding is, is kinda key. So you need all those emails written, which they already are by this point, and then you put them into your system. So then you've got an automation, you've got a thank you page, [00:47:00] you've probably got a tag. And then the next thing we go in and do is probably set up the form again, depending on what system you're in. [00:47:06] So we set up the form first, because on a landing page, you're gonna need to put the form in it, but you can't set up the form without having stuff to link to it because it'll say, well, what do you want to do with this form? And if you haven't got a like, okay, once they filled in the form, go to this thank you page. [00:47:19] Or once they filled in the form, subscribe them to this automation. So that's why we're kind of working backwards and up. So then we do the form bit. And then once we've done the form bit, we then build the landing page. And then once we've done the landing page, all the social media posts are already written, already done. [00:47:36] So it should be as easy as. So then you'll have the link for your landing page. And then it should be as easy as, here's your social media post that you've already created. Shove the link in there when they click through to it. The rest should be absolutely fine. And then obviously we do an element of testing. [00:47:51] I test it, they test it, make sure everything looks right, reads right, and all that sort of good stuff. But yeah, it's not where the process that we go through as the [00:48:00] consumer is we see a social media post. We go through to a landing page, we put in a form, we then go to a thank you page. We then get an email. [00:48:09] We don't create it in the same process because that's not the process that's easy enough for us. Yeah. So, yeah. And I know it sounds big. It does [00:48:18] Sarah: sound right. Overwhelming when you hear it like that. Yeah. But it, it's like anything, it's definitely like Marie Felia would say it's figure outable and once you have figured it out the first time, you can just rinse and repeat. [00:48:32] That's it. The system and the process. And you will come up with different opt-ins and free. [00:48:37] Teresa: Yeah, and I had, and, and again, I promise you, I never came on here to go buy my thing. But had an amazing testimonial. The day I say testimony she just told me, but it was still amazing. One of my members bought Build My List cuz like I said, it's not included in the membership cause it's a very specific and it's followed me along. [00:48:53] So like I said, we'll literally go, has everybody done this now? Let me see it. Has it look yet great? Right once to the next thing. Because I know people need [00:49:00] that gain ability, but she had done the course the very first time I ran it and she actually hadn't been as present in the course as she wanted to because she was doing a tax return or something at the time and the timing just wasn't right for her. [00:49:13] And she actually got one of her team to go through and do the work, so. Mm-hmm. , they actually went in and did the stuff. and they did it and she obviously hadn't done it. And so then it comes a year later and she decides she needs a new lead magnet and cuz the other one had been performing well, but obviously it's nice to have a few, and again, I explain about, you know, why you would want different ones for different things. [00:49:35] And so she decided she wants a new one and she went back to the course and went through the lessons and came on one of my calls and was. I've done it, , I've just done it and, and like I literally just went back and, and did exactly what you said and I've done another one. And she was like, that's amazing. [00:49:53] And then she's doing another one. And it's like, that's the point, like by going through it with you like [00:50:00] that. And even when I'm talking about different systems, the way I try and explain, and obviously you know, you have different systems to choose from, but the way I try to explain it is if you understand what you are trying to do or what you need to do, even if you then go to a different system, you know, okay, I need a page or a landing page, which might be called a website on some things. [00:50:21] Or it might be called a site, or it might be called a page, or it might be called a landing page and I need some kind of form or opt-in or pop in, pop up. So again, where's that gonna be? And I need another page for a thank you page, and I need some kind of automation and I need something to trigger it. So even if you're moving and changing, The, like you said, the idea for me is I teach you the understanding of it and then you can rinse and repeat it. [00:50:44] Mm-hmm. , because, I dunno about you, Sarah. One of the things I found in the online space and, and talking of humane marketing and doing the right thing for our customers is, and one thing that I've been complimented on, which is lovely, is that I don't set my members [00:51:00] up on my students up to always need me. [00:51:02] Mm-hmm. , my aim is to give them the tools and the strategies and it's the empowerment for the empowerment Exactly. To do it themselves again. Yeah. Rather than, okay, I'm gonna give you so much and then, you know, if you want the rest, you're gonna have to come and do this, and do this and do this. Right. It. No, I am so over the moon and she just ha so happens to also be a member as well. [00:51:25] But even, and I, and funnily enough, when I was doing the challenge, I re-interviewed some of the past member some of the past students. And again, they said exactly the same. They were like, I did another one and I did another one. And the other thing that's really lovely actually is I have some marketers come to me and say, can I use it for clients? [00:51:41] And I'm like, if you are, you can come and learn the skill and learn the process and then offer that as a service. And then you can now be, I can create your opt-in, I can set up your email and absolutely fine. You can use my tools and my strategies and my stuff. That is fine if, as long as that's giving you another skill [00:52:00] and you are obviously not selling the corso, as long as you're using the things, that's fine. [00:52:04] And, but I love that. I love that we empower people to, to do those things so they don't have to come back to me and go, I'm gonna have to join again cuz I can't remember how to do it. [00:52:13] Sarah: Yeah, I, I just had my first group in the Humane Marketing Circle go through my book, the marketing, like we're human and they organized everything themselves. [00:52:24] So basically it's member organized and they got together, you know, amazing during three sessions, worked through my workbooks that are available for free. And so I'm like, this is exactly what we need. You know, we don't need more gurus. We need people to get empowered and then do it themselves. Just get the tools and then do it themselves. [00:52:46] And you are so right. And I think, yeah, this conversation here has been so helpful because people are like, Okay. I'm getting the big picture and I'm really getting the details and, and, and maybe they can just, you know, do it themselves now that, that [00:53:00] would [00:53:00] Teresa: be great. And for summits, right? More than enough on the challenge. [00:53:04] I had a number of people, in fact, a huge percentage of people that we talked about, you know, this is how you come up with an idea. These are sort of things that I consider and then they'd come to. , the coaching call I did alongside it. And then the next day they're like, I've created it. Yeah. And I'm like, that's amazing. [00:53:19] Awesome. Yeah. And then, and I had actually, and I'd never had this before, but I had two people actually within the five days create the thing and then they got bit stuck with the tech. Cuz obviously I can only go into so much on a challenge about that. But then they post in the group and I was like, have you changed up to that? [00:53:35] Do this to this? And they were like, I can't honestly believe you're helping me do this. Like Yeah. But you've come into the challenge trying to achieve something and you are working really hard to achieve it. Why wouldn't I help you to achieve it? Mm-hmm. Yes. I know I have a course that teaches all this, but you are so far ahead already. [00:53:51] Yeah. And I would've literally left you at the last hurdle. And, and [00:53:55] Sarah: basically they only needed that missing piece and Yeah. [00:53:58] Teresa: Yeah. And if I hadn. [00:54:00] Thought about them in the way I do and treat my audience the way I do. I'd been like, well that's fine cuz that's in the course. So if you wanna buy the course, it looks there to do that. [00:54:07] And it was like, no, this woman and the woman I was talking about, she has a young child. It was like an 18 month old and it was like, I know how difficult it was for you to turn up and go through the challenge because of how busy you are and managing the child and all this, and the fact that you've done all this. [00:54:23] and, and it was really early in the morning, and I don't, I normally, I get up and I have a morning routine and I don't look at my phone straight away. But for whatever reason, I sat in bed and I was looking at my phone and that message came up. So she'd obviously got up before a child or a child had woken her up or whatever, and gone back to sleep. [00:54:38] So she's messaging me and it was like, I don't know, six feet in the morning and I'm like, do this. And then she came back, I'm stuck on this. Try that. Okay, that works. Okay, you need to change this. And at the end of it, she was like, I can't believe. Like, but you've just done that. And it's, and like I said, why wouldn't I? [00:54:51] Mm-hmm. , you know, I'm setting people up to succeed, not to need me and buy my stuff if they don't need to. [00:54:57] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Ah, this [00:55:00] has been wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing so much wisdom and, and tackling the tech, because , I think, yeah, it really, people are gonna take a lot from that. If, if you would add one last tip in terms of, you know, maybe also the content, how to make it humane, y

Today's conversation fits under the P of Promotion. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. (If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps). My guest today is Teresa Heath-Wareing. Teresa Heath-Wareing is an online business, marketing & mindset expert who works with business owners from across the world, helping them to build a business and life they love. As well as inspiring members to dream big and set ambitious long term business goals, Teresa equips them with practical actionable steps to get them closer to their goals. Her holistic emphasis on the whole business, and the mindset of the business owner, enables her members to navigate the world of running a business with Teresa as their biggest cheerleader. An international best-selling author, award winning speaker and TEDx speaker. She is the host of the Your Dream Business Podcast.Teresa is recognised alongside some of the world's digital marketing thought leaders and is widely regarded as one of the UK's leading marketing influencers. In this episode, you'll learn about humane listbuilding as well as... How to get started with building an email list How to get people on to your list, in a saturated market where we all have too much email already? How to create a 'Freebie' worth downloading What about the tech? What do we send out once people downloaded our Freebie? How do we make Email Marketing humane and non pushy? And so much more Teresa's Resources Teresa's Mindset Hacks for Small Business Owners Teresa's Website Your Dream Business Podcast Connect with Teresa on: LinkedIn Facebook Twitter Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Ep 156 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle. And renegade author of marketing like We're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom Circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti. On the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. My Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. [00:01:47] I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:31] Hello friends. Welcome back. I hope you're doing well. Before we dive into today's conversation, I just want to take a moment to tell you a bit about what's new in our community. The Humane Marketing Circle. As you know, that's the community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who are ready for something different, something new, a new way of marketing, and a new way of business building really. [00:02:58] and also a new [00:03:00] way of being in community. So here's how our community calls work. In the first half of the call, members bring their questions and we have a conversation about what works for us in marketing. For example, on one of the last calls we talked about ai. We share tools, but also discuss benefits, dangers, and overall ethical questions that AI brings up. [00:03:27] And in the second half of the call, we always go into breakout rooms to have a more intimate conversation with another heart-centered entrepreneur, which is super valuable to have kind of this one-on-one or two-on-one feedback. And this month's topic is the P of Personal Power, and we discuss how. Our core values make us and our business really different from our peers. [00:03:55] So that's the format of our calls. And in [00:04:00] 2022 we came together once per month for a call. But now in 2023 we have two monthly meetings and one of the calls is hosted by me, the other call is hosted by one of our ambassador team members in turn. So there's a small team of ambassadors, circle members who are now have stepped up and are now hosting these calls in turn. [00:04:24] And I'm just so happy to see that taking place cuz that was exactly my vision for the Humane Marketing Circle. Kind of this responsibility of the members stepping up. That means we get even more opportunity to bring our questions and learn from everyone. We're also currently transitioning to our new community platform on Cajabi, and it really looks great and has all the features that we were missing on Trello, which was the tool that we used to use before. [00:04:59] And so that [00:05:00] new platform helps us stay connected with each other, in between the calls, hold each other accountable with challenges, messaging between members and so much more. And really, I resisted this for a long time because it's just not my zone of genius to kind of facilitate these online platforms or, or groups. [00:05:22] But the members have asked for it. And so we're creating it. And actually to help me with the facilitation of this community, this online community, I also just hired a community facilitator. So not to be confused with a social. Manager who's just posting questions and, and you know, visuals and quotes and things. [00:05:46] But really, Eddie that's the name of the great guy that we hired as a community facilitator. His main role is to facilitate the interactions between members, nurture [00:06:00] relationships, and help people get answers within that online community. And Eddie studied this, so he studied community design and I'm, yeah, I'm really super excited to have him on board. [00:06:14] The best thing right now is that if you join right now, the price is still at the same low $37 per month, after a $7 for seven day trial. So you can, will also just check us out to see it. Probably join just before one of the calls to get that live interaction and see if we're the right fit for you. With the second monthly call. [00:06:39] And once the Cajabi community is fully developed and active, I'll bring the rate back up to 47 per month. But for the next few weeks, it will remain at 37 per month. And that's lifetime. So if you join now, that will always be your monthly rate. So now is a good [00:07:00] time to join us and build this different way of marketing together. [00:07:05] Well that's why we're calling it a A revolution. A humane revolution. So if you'd like to be supported by a group of like-minded individuals, I call them the quietly rebellious entrepreneurs, they're also all deep think. So if that's your kind of people that you want to hang out with and learn from and share with, then check out the details at humane.marketing/circle. [00:07:34] Okay, back to the show. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion. And if you are already regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, big warm welcome. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one-page marketing plan with the humane marketing [00:08:00] version of the seven Ps of marketing@humane.marketing slash one page, the number one and the word page. [00:08:08] And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. . So my guest today is Teresa Heath Waring, and she is an online business marketing and mindset expert who works with business owners from across the world, helping them to build a business and life they love, as well as inspiring members to dream big and set ambitious long-term business goals. [00:08:37] Teresa equips them with Practic. Actionable steps to get them closer to their goals. Her holistic emphasis on the whole business and the mindset of the business owner enables her members to navigate a world of running a business with Theresa as their biggest cheerleader, an international bestselling author, award-winning speaker and [00:09:00] TEDx speaker. [00:09:00] She is the host of your dream business podcast, which where I used to be a guest as well. And Theresa is recognized alongside some of the world's digital marketing thought leaders and is widely regarded as one of the UK's leading marketing influencers. . In today's episode, I asked Teresa to come onto the Humane Marketing Podcast to talk about Humane List building. [00:09:27] Theresa and I discussed the following topics, how to get started with building an email list, how to get people onto your list in a saturated market where we all have too much email already, how to create a freebie really worth downloading. How about the tech that so many people are afraid of what to send out once people actually downloaded our freebie and our on our email list, and how do we make email marketing humane and non-pushy [00:10:00] and so much more? [00:10:01] So let's just dive right in. Here's Theresa and me talking about humane list building. . Hi Theresa. I'm so excited for our conversation. [00:10:13] Teresa: Yay. Thanks for being here. Nice too. No, my pleasure. I'm excited too. Wonderful. [00:10:18] Sarah: So we could have had. So many topics to talk about, right? Mm-hmm. . But when we first chatted I was like, well, you just finished one of your list building challenges. [00:10:29] And so I was like, oh, I think that is a good one. And we actually met on a, what was it called? Exactly, something with Authentic Marketing Summit with Marcy. And, and so I was like, oh, okay, so this is the right person to talk about humane list building. And so that's what I yeah, that's what I think where we can go. [00:10:50] But as I just said offline, I think for most people it's like, okay, that sounds like a good idea to build your email list. [00:11:00] But where do I get started? How do I get started? Yeah. So maybe just tell us a little bit about who you are and then as you can tell, We have a habit here to just dive in. [00:11:12] That is and go into the [00:11:13] Teresa: topic. I have no problem with that. So I am a a business owner, an online business owner, a speaker, a podcaster, an author. But basically I help amazing business owners, predominantly women. Not that I only work with women, but I seem to attract a lot of women who are trying to create a business and life that actually works for them and their season of life, and isn't something that they've looked at that some experts told them, it's gotta be this way, or you've gotta win this much, or you've gotta charge this much, or you've gotta earn seven figures and you've gotta do it online. [00:11:49] It's about understanding who they are and what they want and what's important to them and their season of life, because we all have other people in our world and other things in our world, and we need to [00:12:00] make sure that our business balance with those things so that we're creating. Not this monster that actually we end up going, this is not what I want to do. [00:12:09] Mm-hmm. we create something that we're going to love. So I do that and I do it in a variety of ways and, and those ways include more of a mindset, kind of motivational, inspirational side. But also I'm incredibly practical because of the fact of, I have 18 years experience in marketing now, which is a really long time. [00:12:30] And I have worked with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of business owners during that time. . I know that sometimes you need the motivation and the inspiration and the mindset and the personal development, and sometimes you just need someone to give you a straight answer. So hopefully that's what I bring with both. [00:12:48] And one of the things that I talk a lot about and one of my, my key things I guess, that I teach on is list building. And it's so important because no matter what [00:13:00] role I've been in and I've been in, as you can imagine, many, many, many different marketing roles from, you know, heading up corporate marketing for Land Rover UK to working with a teeny tiny company that has no budget and I have to do everything. [00:13:12] So I've kind of done it all. And one thing that has never really gone away, and in fact in my mind is just going to strength to strength is email marketing. Mm-hmm. , and I think probably a few. Years back when social media really kicked in, maybe, gosh, even now. Well, I started my business eight years ago and it was probably at that point it was really getting good for business. [00:13:36] I think people thought, oh, well we have all these new amazing ways I'm gonna do this and I don't need to think about some of these old school ways. But actually that's moved. Email has moved with social media and with technology. And when you are in marketing or when, well, whether you have a business or whatever it is, and you're trying to market more options are better than less always.[00:14:00] [00:14:00] So it's so important to make sure that you've got that email list or you have another way to contact them. And the other key thing is that often, if. Communicating with your clients or your per perspective customers through social media. You don't own that platform. That platform is not you. Yours, you are marketing on borrowed ground. [00:14:17] So basically you are marketing on something that doesn't belong to you. And at any point, as we well know, because Instagram changes like the wind, that they can change something and it completely affects everything. And at the moment, you know, and I'll openly talk about stuff myself, but my own Instagram is terrible at the moment. [00:14:34] Like in terms of the engagement on the post, it's so much worse than it used to be. So we need to make sure we have somewhere else that we can market directly to our customers. So in terms of getting started, it's a couple of things, and this is why I think so many people get put off by it because it can feel overwhelming. [00:14:52] there's a few things you have to think about first. First is how are you gonna email them? And this is the bit that no one wants to think about cuz this is the [00:15:00] tech. But ultimately you can't do this without some tech, but it's not big and massive and huge and it's not fancy funnels and clever things. [00:15:11] It's just a case of you need a system that you can add email addresses to and then send an email to those people. Now you can't do it through your normal email, so you can't do it through. . If you know you're using a business address or a Gmail, or it's hosted by Gmail, or you're an Outlook, you can't send them through that. [00:15:29] And the reason you can't do that is, one, they're not designed to do that. And two, you have to have an unsubscribe on a marketing email, and you can't have that. That isn't standard. It has to be standard. So it's much safer and much smarter to get a system. Now, the one I recommend for everyone getting started is mail light. [00:15:49] Lots of people know MailChimp. Mm-hmm. . And I know lots of people are on MailChimp, and they might be like, well, why wouldn't you recommend MailChimp? I describe MailChimp. Not that they would thank me for it but I [00:16:00] describe them as like, A house. So a house that was built a long time ago, and then they had an extension put on, and then they realized they needed more rooms. [00:16:08] They added a bit over here, and then they wanted something over here and then, and basically they've built on, so mail ch MailChimp was there for a really long time, but they've added in all that functionality after the fact. And it just doesn't quite seem to flow right. It doesn't quite seem to like, it's not very intuitive. [00:16:26] It's not particularly easy. There's a couple of really funky, weird things that it does. So for me, someone like Maite who started off basically as if they bought a piece of land and go, right, how are we gonna build this? And then they built it right in the first place because obviously they, they're not that old, whereas MailChimp is old. [00:16:41] So [00:16:41] Sarah: I think that's another fact, like, you know, MailChimp is old or you know, in terms of social media, old, and so they constantly had to adapt. And so that's why it's just house stuck. I kept building on other things. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Where if, if you take a newer company, well they build [00:17:00] with this current circumstances in what we need. [00:17:02] Yes, [00:17:02] Teresa: yes, yes. And obviously there's gonna come a point where, you know, Mala light has to tweak and change and all the others do. And they do always constantly, but it's almost like, it's almost like they wanna start again with MailChimp. But like I said, lots of people use them. But if you haven't chose a system, or even if you are using MailChimp, male light really, really is good. [00:17:21] Very intuitive, really simple to use. But basically you need to. . So like I said, set that up and say, okay, now I've got somewhere where I can put emails in and I can email from Now, whether that's you then taking an email list that you've created in Excel or something like that and literally just putting it across, or whether that's you then creating something called a lead magnet or a content upgrade grade or whatever you wanna call it. [00:17:47] But basically you are creating an incentive to ask them to come onto your list. Right? Because as much as we'd like to think that people wake up one day and go, oh, I wonder if that person that I barely know or just followed on Instagram has an email, is they'd love to get on it. Like that [00:18:00] doesn't happen. [00:18:00] So even though we often have get on our list, on our website or something like that, I think if you honestly asked yourself how many people have opted in through that in the last month, I think most people would be like a few, a handful of people are opting in. If that makes, [00:18:15] Sarah: I'm gonna pause you there, Teresa. [00:18:16] Cause I wanna, before we move on to the opt-in or the freebie or the the lead magnet, I wanna come back to the tech because I think. You know, like you said, so many people will start with MailChimp or, or the question I have since you recommended mail or Light, is that a platform that can grow with you? [00:18:36] You, you would say that, you know, people with big businesses are still able to use? [00:18:42] Teresa: Yes and no. It's a great one to start with and it will certainly grow with most small business owners. Mm-hmm. , it can do an element of the automations. It has some good functionality in it and it's good. However, when I teach my course, I talk about three different platforms. [00:18:58] I talk about main light. If you're just [00:19:00] getting started, if you know how to do emails and you wanna start getting a bit fancy and having some call automations, then I use Active Campaign and it's very. Again, a lot of these platforms though, it's what you're used to. So there are, there's Convert Kit that's very similar. [00:19:15] There's Drip that's very similar, so there are lots of them out there and this is half the problem. Yeah, it's too, too much choice. way too much choice. And then the one I recommend, if you're going all in on an online business and you're having a membership and a checkout and landing pages and all this kind of cool stuff, then from a cost point of view, something like Kajabi could be really good. [00:19:35] Mm-hmm. . So what Kajabi has that the others don't is the facility to do all of that stuff and do it really well. The problem comes, so I currently use Kajabi to host my membership. However, I'm at a point now where I have a guy who builds all my landing pages for me. So I have a tech guy who does all that and they're built on WordPress. [00:19:57] And also I have some cool things like I have a [00:20:00] quiz. And that quiz had to plug into somewhere and Kajabi couldn't handle it. Mm-hmm. . So I've now moved to Active Campaign. I say now it's about a year. So I have active campaign for my emails. I have Kajabi for those other things. But when you, again, when you first get started, if you're going in the online world, the emails can't do. [00:20:19] Kajabi are great, but they can't go to the level the active campaign can do, or I wouldn't say they can. . And therefore at the beginning you don't wanna pay for two systems, which I didn't. I just used Kajabi and I kind of thought it is what it is, you know, I'll just have to go with it. And it was perfectly fine and good enough and capable for the job. [00:20:38] But active campaign now is much cooler. [00:20:41] Sarah: I love that you explained that because I think, yeah, there's one thing is like, okay, I wanna plan big and go big. Mm-hmm. and therefore I'm gonna go for something like, you know, Kajabi. Which was also my move. I went from, actually, I started out with Malechi, then went to AWeber, then went to Active Campaign, and this is over years and [00:21:00] years. [00:21:00] Yeah. And, and then now finally to Kajabi. And just like you, there's a little tiny me piece of me as like regretting the move to Gujabi. Yeah. Because once you're used to something like Active Campaign, which is built only for email. Yes. Then. Cajabi does not do the same job like it. It's just not, so, yeah, all it is to, to explain that, it obviously depends where your business is at. [00:21:26] Malar Light seems like a good place to start and you almost kind of maybe do have to plan that eventually, you know, there's gonna be a [00:21:35] Teresa: move. And like you said, how many of you had, how many have I had? I was male Chimp, then I was Drip cuz I went and did a certification over in Minnesota. Then I did Infusionsoft. [00:21:47] Right. So I went like, that was, and I mean, if you wanna go crazy, I mean Infusionsoft is insane. And then I went Kajabi and now I've added back in Active campaign. Mm-hmm. But like I said, it was just for that l that extra bit of [00:22:00] functionality. If you are sending emails, if you are wanting automations to go. [00:22:05] it will do it. You can do sequences in Kajabi. So it's not that it's a terrible system, but obviously if you just think about it, they are building a system with so many different things. So they can't put all of the focus into just the email side of it. Whereas, like I said, active campaign convert kit, that's all they do, right? [00:22:22] So therefore they can make sure that they've created the best email side they can. Mm-hmm. But again, you know, from a money point of view, you will be absolutely fine just using Kajabi If you are doing an online business, if you're not doing an online business and you at the moment if you just want to send an email or when someone clicks something, you can send an email for that. [00:22:42] Or if someone opts into something and send an email for that male male, a light, this is where I start getting more mixed up. Cuz there are so many, and obviously male to male light are very similar male. A light is perfectly good for that. And you're right, I think. , there will come a point where you go, okay, now I need more. [00:22:58] But at that point, you'll be able to [00:23:00] afford more. Whereas the beauty of starting on something like Maite is the fact that it's so low cost. Mm-hmm. . So even the paid version, the start of the paid version is like $10 a month. Mm-hmm. . Whereas I think probably now because of the size of my list, I probably pay $200 a month fr campaign. [00:23:16] So it's a big, big difference. So like I said, get started in those others and it's a pain to move. I'm not even gonna like, pretend it's not. It is a pain. It is a pain. I mean, it's not impossible. It's not difficult really. It's just the lot of work. And of course the more you have created. So when we went from well, when we went from Infusionsoft to. [00:23:39] Kajabi, that was a pain. And when we went from Kajabi to Active campaign, it took us, well, we haven't even finished, but we spent a solid week working on moving everything across and we haven't even finished. So it's not that it's impossible, it's just that it's a new system. You gotta get used to it and you have to move things across and it will take some time. [00:23:58] So, so yeah. But don't panic [00:24:00] about that. If you're just starting and money is more of the concern. If money's not the concern, then jump straight onto active campaign. Great, fine. Be brilliant. You won't need to use all the functionality necessary straight away, but it will be there when you're ready. But if money's a concern, male light is definitely where I would start. [00:24:15] Awesome. I think that [00:24:16] Sarah: was a great tech focus, you know, and it's like, because sometimes you don't get this information. Like I, like I say, like people just tell you, well, you know, start a, a mailing list. And then they're like, [00:24:27] Teresa: well, wow, which one? Yeah. And there's so many. And I think the other thing I really wanna reassure people is I am not a tech person, like, The reason I know so much about the tech is one, I've used a lot of it myself, but also in my course I identified the fact that that is the one thing that people don't teach. [00:24:45] And that's the one and main stumbling block as to why people don't finish a process. Right? So, you know, they might, so I can obviously talk about, you know, what a lead magnet is and how we use it and what it's good for and some of the key things you need to do in it. [00:25:00] And I can talk about your board onboarding emails. [00:25:02] I can talk about your sequencing, we can talk about what to email them, we can talk about how to get 'em on that email list, which is great and people can get all that. But then the problem is they would look at the tech and some people are great and they're fine, but a lot of people would go a, I dunno what platform to use b I dunno where the hell to start and I dunno how to make this work. [00:25:19] So one of the things I did in the, in the course, and I had to teach myself it in many, many, many systems is I the process that I give them, is the process that I taught them through in the course, and one of my members that came and did it, she, how old is she? She's probably in her early sixties maybe. [00:25:41] And she was like, she'd been in my membership for ages and obviously they get support from me there, but they don't get the course. But she could have asked me any question on any coaching call. That would've been fine. But she just hadn't got round to doing it. It was like, yeah, I know what I need to do. [00:25:55] Haven't quite sorted out the tech. And we did the course and she was dreading the tech bit and we get on [00:26:00] a call and she, cuz we, we do calls alongside the course so I can answer questions and I can literally go, give me your login or open it on screen and let me see and I'll point and go click that button. [00:26:11] And, but she literally came on the call and was like, I could kiss you, literally kiss you. She said, I didn't think for one second I could do that tech side. She goes, and I literally sat there with your screen on one screen and me on another and you were, the video was like, okay, so when you're here, go here and click this. [00:26:29] She goes, and I did. And then you were like, click this and do it. Which I did. She goes and I did it and it's done. And that's the thing, like it's not difficult, but the process is very weird. So again, what's interesting is a lot of the feedback I get is I would never have started where you said to start, right? [00:26:46] And it's because. , I start them at the thank you page, which seems like a really odd place to start. Mm-hmm. . But the problem is when you are setting up a landing page, it'll say, where do you want this to redirect to? And if you haven't got that set up, you can't finish your landing [00:27:00] page. Yeah. So there's all these kind of little quirks that like, because I know the processing, cause I've done the process, it's like, okay, it's not that it's, you can't do it the other way. [00:27:10] It just makes it a lot easier and a lot quicker. Mm-hmm. . So I think, like I said, for me, I don't want people to be sat there going, yeah, it's all right for you, you're tech. I'm not, I'm really not. I just had to learn it. But it means I can teach it and it means that obviously if I will probably talk about it in a layman's way, and I also have the opportunity to have some of these providers come in and do the training on, on that for me. [00:27:32] But I didn't want them to because, because I've, I've taught you to do something very specific. I want you to show how to do that specific thing rather than here's an overview of the system, this is how it works. So yeah, it's. . And like I said, the tech bit's so important. Cause that's a bit that stumbles people. [00:27:49] Yeah. And stops people. [00:27:51] Sarah: But the other thing that you just brought up is, is there's the tech, but then there's also the understanding the process. You know, it's like [00:28:00] Yeah. You have to almost like map it out and maybe Yes. Visually map it out. And so maybe you can just do that for our listeners right now. [00:28:07] Yeah. Like, yeah. Let's start with the, you know what most people call lead magnet? I don't like that language anymore in humane marketing. [00:28:14] Teresa: Cuz it's just like, no, you're right. No, because it doesn't, the visual is not nice, right? No. There's, there's no humane about it. Yeah. Cause it's a lead magnet. Let's [00:28:22] Sarah: call it a, a freebie or I actually call it a signpost where people get to, [00:28:27] Teresa: you know a hand raiser. [00:28:28] That's another thing I call it. It's like handraiser. I like that. Yeah. I love that. I'm interested in it. I wanna know more. Yeah. They raise their hand. [00:28:34] Sarah: So let's start there and then, Talk through the process of what needs to happen [00:28:38] Teresa: behind the scenes in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So at the very beginning, the first thing we talk about is the, the hand raiser, the freebie. [00:28:47] And I keep it simple, so I tell them to choose something. So the first thing we have to do right at the beginning is we have to know who their customer is. And I don't just mean like, you know, what age are they and where do they shop? I mean, like, what [00:29:00] is the thing that they're really struggling with? Get to know them, speak to them, understand them, listen to them and what they've gotta say. [00:29:06] This isn't, you're not just trying to sell someone. And again, that is the point of a hand raiser. It's not a sales tool, which. , I know often can be seen as that way, and ultimately it might lead to a sale. But the idea is you as my perfect customer, as my perfect audience members, part of my community, you have a problem that I can solve because this is where my zone of genius is. [00:29:28] So I create something that addresses your problem and gives you some solutions, and you have to give them something that is good. I have downloaded that many lead magnets. I can't even tell you because this is my passion. This is what I do. Like I will drop into someone's funnel and go through it and look at it all. [00:29:46] and I've downloaded stuff that is useless, absolutely useless. And it's only just a, I want your email address. It's not a genuine, I'm trying to help you. So that's the very first thing we talk about. We need to know [00:30:00] exactly who your people are, what their problem is, and then you need to give me some very good advice to help me with that problem. [00:30:06] But we always start with a PDF download, which I know sounds very unimaginative and there's much better ways to attract your perfect audience, but they're much bigger and more complicated. So I've got a. , it was a very big process to do that quiz and I had an expert help me. So even though it might be like, well, it's just a pdf, we'll make it the best PDF they've ever downloaded, but it is. [00:30:27] So basically we find one problem and we give them five points and we say, this is how I can help you with my five points. Okay. So it's like and one thing that actually always comes up and you know, this podcast has gone for hours, by the way, cuz I can talk about this for literally hours. [00:30:42] Sarah: Well, they'll, they'll just have to come to your [00:30:44] Teresa: course, you know, well love, like, it's not a sales message, but that's, that's what it's [00:30:49] But like, so one of the things we talk about is sometimes the problem that they've got. So let's say I am a coach that helps people who have got imposter syndrome, let's say. That was my business. [00:31:00] Well, the problem is, Possible customers or people I can help might not know they've got imposter syndrome. [00:31:08] Mm-hmm. So what they do is five ways to help you get over imposter syndrome. Well, that's great if I know I've got it, but I don't know I've got it. Mm-hmm. So, one thing, and that's often a mistake, you really choose. So the thing that you need to think about with the lead magnet, with your title, with your, your freebie, and the thing you're offering them is it needs to sing to them. [00:31:27] It needs to, they need to read that and go, that's me. Mm-hmm. . Whereas if I don't know what that is, if I've never heard of the phrase imposter syndrome, but what I might know is my symptoms or what I might know is the problems that I have. So they need to get quite granular with that. So it might be that do you worry that you're gonna get found out one day question mark if I read that, and whether I knew what in Imposs syndrome was or not, and whether I, you know, thought I had it or not. [00:31:54] I would read that and go, yeah, that's me. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . So, but I would only know that and know [00:32:00] that language cause I know my customer really well. So that piece, yeah, that's [00:32:04] Sarah: unfortunately, that's often a problem, especially for coaches, right? Because they're so into their specialty or into their methods that unfortunately they're marketing [00:32:15] Teresa: the method where Yes. [00:32:16] Yeah. And they're not talking to the problem. Yeah. And sometimes people are like, yeah, but I don't wanna be negative. And it's like, it's not that you're being negative, it's that sometimes the only way, you know. So if you rephrase it and said, you know, do you fear that one day you'll be found out? I know it sounds negative, but the point is it resonates cuz that's the kind of thing I might say. [00:32:38] And what's quite nice for me and you, , I've always kind of hoped and thought that this is my superpower, is I'm able to think about who their customer might be and what their customer might say. And sometimes I am a potential customer. Yeah. Sometimes I'd be like, well actually I would never say that. This is what I would say. [00:32:55] Yeah. And it, it inevitably is not the same language because like you said, [00:33:00] when you are an expert in your world, in your field, you are gonna use the right terms. You are gonna think of, like you said, the solution. And the solution is, you know, you've got imposter syndrome and I've got tools to help you with imposter syndrome. [00:33:12] Well, I don't know. I've got that. Mm-hmm . So that's the first thing. Really understanding that customer is key. Coming up with something that is genuinely going to help them, that is genuinely going to fix their problem is the next thing. So like I said, we know downloads can be, excuse me, I'm gonna cough. [00:33:29] I'm so sorry. Yeah. I could feel it building. And I, a sneeze coming as well. I'm so sorry. I never do. That's fine. [00:33:40] Is it gone all good, ? I think so. Hope so. Sorry, sorry, sorry. So like I said, you wanna create that lead magnet, that freebie that is really good quality. So when they get it, it actually gives them something. Don't be scared about giving away too good of stuff. You're talking basics. Okay. So you're not talking like your secret source or your method or your whole, like this is how to do [00:34:00] it, start to finish, but the stuff you're telling them is really good stuff. [00:34:04] So when we're in the process, the very first thing they do is create that thing and we do it in you know, something like Canva or Adobe Express, and they get all the templates and basically they make it look nice and they create this P D F that they've got that they can give someone. Then what we do, And we do everything to get it ready before we go into tech. [00:34:26] Cuz that's the other thing, like I said, once you get into tech, you don't wanna then go, you're halfway through a process, you have to go and write some stuff and by the time you come back you're like, I can't remember where I was or what I was doing. So then what you're going to do from that point is you're gonna think about the words that you want to be on your signup page. [00:34:42] So the page that is the landing page where someone goes and goes, yes, I would like that. So based on what you've written, you write some words on that and there's a format to it and, and there's a way you can do it. But basically you're saying to them, if you have problems with this, this, this, this, or if you're struggling with this, this, this, this. [00:34:58] If you find you are this, this, [00:35:00] this, then. In this download, I'm gonna help you with this, this, this. So then you've got the copy for that and we make sure we've got some images as well. So within the template thing, we create social images and we create images for the landing page. Then you want to start writing your emails that you're going to send to them. [00:35:16] Cuz the minute they download that, you are gonna want to automate some emails. And I think the word automation scares people. It's really not that difficult. It's like when they opt in this form, send them this thing, wait a day, send them this thing, wait two days, send them this thing. So then what we do is we write all our emails and, and again there's like templates to follow and that sort of format. [00:35:37] And we got our, our titles, our subject lines, we've got our preview text, they've got our emails. So basically we have everything ready to roll. Before we go to the tech. So they literally have a Google doc of all their stuff. They have their images, they have their P D F, they have the pictures, the lot and things like as well. [00:35:57] There might be a little blurb about who you are and what [00:36:00] makes you an expert. So then what we do is when we go to the system, the thing that we start with is the, well, you can do a couple of things, but depending on what system you're using and which order it goes in. Because again, it's all different. [00:36:15] But normally you'd build a thank you page first. And the thank you page is a really simple page that acknowledges the fact that they've opted in. And it might tell them things like, make sure you check your spam cuz it might have gone in there. And if you don't get it, email us here. Or if you know you haven't found it, if you wanna link to something else on that page, you can. [00:36:32] You could always say, go and take a look at my website, or I wrote a blog on this, or whatever it is. But normally, and again, when getting started, don't over confuse yourself just. , a plain thank you page that has your logo and a nice image or whatever on it in your font saying Thank you. It's on its way. [00:36:47] And don't forget to shake your junk. So that's on the thank you page. So we'd build that first. Then what we'd probably build next is the email sequence. And again, it can depend on different systems, but you'd need to build that [00:37:00] sequence. So basically this is an automation, and you would say, okay, I want to create an automation. [00:37:05] And you might put the trigger in there. You might put the trigger somewhere else. Again, this is where different systems differ. Depends on the tool. Yeah, it does. But basically you are saying, okay when this thing happens, I want you to, and it can be like, so active campaign. It could be a tag. So when this tag is added, start this and you can decide the tag. [00:37:25] And, and we normally have decided the tag by this point. , you would start the automation. When someone gets this tag, start this thing and it'd like send them an email immediately. And then you put in your copy and your text of the email. The other thing you're gonna need to do is link to the thing that they've got and things like, the one key thing, and I saw this the other day with someone, is I opted in for their thing and they had a huge email and the link was hidden. [00:37:51] Well, they say hidden, but it was amongst a lot of texts of the thing. I actually was trying to die in load. And then there was about another four or five links of various different other things they were trying to tell me [00:38:00] to do. And a 20% off discount if I bought my first thing. And it's like, we too much, too much do too much. [00:38:06] Because then again, you're jumping straight into the sale. And again, that's not humane. That's not, we are coming from a point of serving. We're coming from a point going, I know you struggle with this and I can help because that's what I do and that's what I'm brilliant at. Mm-hmm. And yes, of course we all need to be paid. [00:38:24] And of course there are paid things that you can have. But at that point, that's too early. So the first email is just an email that says, here you go. There's your thing. Like you asked for it. There it is. And I think on the copy it normally says something like, and I'll be in touch in a couple of days to let you see how you got on. [00:38:44] And again, one thing I find, especially with a brand new sequence of someone brand new, tell them what to expect. Mm-hmm. . Okay. So in that first email, say, I'll be back in touch tomorrow, or I'll be back in touch in two days, so that when your email does fall into their inbox, they're not gonna think, oh, [00:39:00] she's hounding me. [00:39:01] Mm-hmm. , because I've already told you that this is what's going to happen. One thing [00:39:05] Sarah: that I really like doing is using numbers and brackets. So one out of five and then they know, okay, this is the first emails, then there's gonna be four more. And so I use that in all the subject lines and people really like it. [00:39:19] I use that also in like mini-series where I'm like, I'm gonna be talking about this topic over five emails. Mm-hmm. , you know that these are coming, right? Yes. So I guess especially in an onboarding series, that would be really helpful [00:39:32] Teresa: for people that like, yes, super helpful. It's a great idea. And like you said, so, and, and I think as well, people are, I know people are struggle with marketing and they really like, you know, they think it's sleazy and slimy and horrible, but as long as people know what to expect from you, it's when they're caught off guard. [00:39:50] It's when you've said to them, I'm gonna email you once a week, or I'm gonna email you once a month and then you send five in two days. Like, that's not okay. That's not. [00:40:00] Alright to do, right? So it's about being really honest and going, this is what I'm going to do. And thinking as well as serving. So I often say, when I generally talk about emails, like you have to ask yourself, who cares you well with anything we do? [00:40:15] Who cares? Like am I giving them something in that email that they're going to want to read? Am I giving them something that is going to be of value to them? Because if all I'm doing is telling them to buy my stuff, that is of no value to them. Now if I'm telling them a story that will give them a lesson or a learning, and then at the end of that email I say, and actually if you want more help with this, I can, and here's how you can get that help, then that's different. [00:40:41] So [00:40:41] Sarah: I think that's important to mention as well, because I know a lot of my clients. And, and I'm sure maybe yours as well. We, we have heart-centered clients and so they're actually, they already know that they want to serve, right? Yes. But it's the actual selling piece that's kind of difficult. And [00:41:00] so just this morning a client said to me that her subscribers told her they don't want more than one message per month. [00:41:06] And I said, I understand that. And that is good that you ask what they want, but you also need to look out for yourself because you are running a business. And so you don't just want to only serve and share great content, you still also need to sell. That's why they are on your email list. So it's finding that balance, [00:41:26] Teresa: right? [00:41:27] It is, it is. And, and like you said, it. For me, again, asking that question is lovely. And I asked it funnily enough just the other day, but I sent three emails a week. Yeah. So, and I asked them, and I said to them, I'm gonna slow down in August. Cause obviously August is our UK summer holiday and I have a daughter and a stepson and you know, hopefully might take a little bit time off at some point. [00:41:48] But for me I was like, so I'm probably gonna send like two emails a week this time. And I, and then, so I said, actually, drop me an email back and let me know what you think about that. And I've had people in the past go, I'd like less [00:42:00] and, and as long as I'm consistent, as long as I told them this is what it's going to be, and I communicate with them and I am thinking of doing less, I'm thinking of maybe just doing two a week on a Wednesday and a Thursday and I will email them going, I've been having a think and I think this is what I'm gonna do and this is why I'm gonna do it. [00:42:16] And, you know, so I think it's that communication and again, treating people like they're real humans. Yeah. Because they are real humans. [00:42:23] Sarah: I think what people get scared because they, the tech is involved and they feel like, Okay, so now this is, you know, the techy part of the business. Yeah. Where nice. It's not, you can still be yourself in these emails and, and Yeah. [00:42:37] Even though you're talking to many people, you're still talking as if you were talking just to one [00:42:43] Teresa: person. I write every email as if I'm talking to one person. Yeah. And, and I personally reply to everyone that responds. Mm-hmm. And I ask them to respond. Mm-hmm. And whether that takes me 20 minutes or three days, I'm the one that responds. [00:42:58] And my team know that they [00:43:00] leave those emails alone because that, and again, I don't have a copywriter. Right. My emails, I write them and I joke that they're probably, they're not award-winning and there's gonna be typos in them. And, and kind of, I'm sorry, but I'm not, because it's like, that's not my zone of genius writing is not necessarily my zone of genius, however, The authenticity of it and the fact of, you want to hear from me so you are going to hear from me. [00:43:24] You are not going to hear from a copywriter who has relayed a story that I've told them. So again, treating it as an additional bit of content, you know, another way to communicate with your audience, but also having that two-way thing and asking them and, and including them in the decision, I think is great. [00:43:42] I do think though, once a month is not enough, nowhere near enough, because like if I said to someone post on social media once a month, and this is the analogy I always give when I get them in the course to go right, how often are you gonna email 'em? What day? And, and initially all of them would go probably once a month. [00:43:59] And then I say to [00:44:00] them, imagine just posting on Instagram 12 times a year. What do you think that would do for the business? Do you think that would mean you get good business? No, of course it wouldn't. And we need to look at emails in a similar way, so, again, it's more about what you're putting in the email than the frequency of the email. [00:44:17] Mm-hmm. . So yeah, so, so we do the sequence emails, we've got digress there. I digressed us. But we do the sequence emails and like I said, the first one is deliver the thing. The second one might be if they're brand new to you, it might be a who you are or normally. The second one for me is, okay, so you had this thing cuz you were struggling. [00:44:34] Have you seen this? So it might be, here's a podcast I did about it. Here's an article I wrote on it. Here's a video I've done on it, but it's helping them further. And then from that point you might introduce yourself, you might explain more about your, what you do, you might then, and some of my email sequences on email, four or five. [00:44:52] But again, you don't have to do this from day one. It gives 'em a video of something that's particularly. Pertinent to what they've downloaded or a [00:45:00] sneak peek into the membership because actually they downloaded a mindset thing and the membership has mindset calls in it. And then, because I have products at the end of it, I might go, if you're interested, actually you might wanna join the club or you might wanna have a look at the club. [00:45:13] And then my last email will say and, and it, this is only cause I'm leading into products that, or a service or whatever. If you are not, then you don't do this. But my last email says, you're not ready. No worries. So basically as well, and the automation is very cool, but I don't teach this. I can teach it to someone who asks, but this is not what I would tell you to get started with. [00:45:31] So for instance, in my funnel, in active campaign, at the end of every email, I have a section in the, in the process that says, did they sign up to the club? If they did, don't send them anything else. If they didn't send them this, did they sign up to the club? If they didn't, don't send them anything else. [00:45:47] If they did, if if they did, don't send 'em anything else. They didn't. And that's what I send them. No worries. That's fine. I see. And that's exactly the [00:45:54] Sarah: thing. You can't do it Cajabi like [00:45:56] Teresa: none of this is no, no, no, it's not right. No. [00:46:00] Yeah. You need a system. And I think, I think. , fairly confident. You can do an element of that in Malechi not Malechi Mailer light [00:46:09] I told you I'd get confused. Yeah, there is an element of that. You can do a mailer light, but you can't do that in Kajabi, which is why again, when switch back, I can afford it. I switched back. Yeah. But again, you know, even saying to at the end, no worries. I've offered you this thing. I think it could be cool, but you don't want it. [00:46:24] And because I very much believe in humane marketing, I don't do close and open on stuff unless it's a course, like build My List where I work with you along it, which means I obviously have to have an intake cuz we all start at the same point. But other than that, my membership is always open, so I just really nicely say at the end, no worries, I'm always here and now you're gonna start getting my regular emails, which, and I tell them what the deal is with the regular emails. [00:46:48] So, so those things. That kind of un onboarding is, is kinda key. So you need all those emails written, which they already are by this point, and then you put them into your system. So then you've got an automation, you've got a thank you page, [00:47:00] you've probably got a tag. And then the next thing we go in and do is probably set up the form again, depending on what system you're in. [00:47:06] So we set up the form first, because on a landing page, you're gonna need to put the form in it, but you can't set up the form without having stuff to link to it because it'll say, well, what do you want to do with this form? And if you haven't got a like, okay, once they filled in the form, go to this thank you page. [00:47:19] Or once they filled in the form, subscribe them to this automation. So that's why we're kind of working backwards and up. So then we do the form bit. And then once we've done the form bit, we then build the landing page. And then once we've done the landing page, all the social media posts are already written, already done. [00:47:36] So it should be as easy as. So then you'll have the link for your landing page. And then it should be as easy as, here's your social media post that you've already created. Shove the link in there when they click through to it. The rest should be absolutely fine. And then obviously we do an element of testing. [00:47:51] I test it, they test it, make sure everything looks right, reads right, and all that sort of good stuff. But yeah, it's not where the process that we go through as the [00:48:00] consumer is we see a social media post. We go through to a landing page, we put in a form, we then go to a thank you page. We then get an email. [00:48:09] We don't create it in the same process because that's not the process that's easy enough for us. Yeah. So, yeah. And I know it sounds big. It does [00:48:18] Sarah: sound right. Overwhelming when you hear it like that. Yeah. But it, it's like anything, it's definitely like Marie Felia would say it's figure outable and once you have figured it out the first time, you can just rinse and repeat. [00:48:32] That's it. The system and the process. And you will come up with different opt-ins and free. [00:48:37] Teresa: Yeah, and I had, and, and again, I promise you, I never came on here to go buy my thing. But had an amazing testimonial. The day I say testimony she just told me, but it was still amazing. One of my members bought Build My List cuz like I said, it's not included in the membership cause it's a very specific and it's followed me along. [00:48:53] So like I said, we'll literally go, has everybody done this now? Let me see it. Has it look yet great? Right once to the next thing. Because I know people need [00:49:00] that gain ability, but she had done the course the very first time I ran it and she actually hadn't been as present in the course as she wanted to because she was doing a tax return or something at the time and the timing just wasn't right for her. [00:49:13] And she actually got one of her team to go through and do the work, so. Mm-hmm. , they actually went in and did the stuff. and they did it and she obviously hadn't done it. And so then it comes a year later and she decides she needs a new lead magnet and cuz the other one had been performing well, but obviously it's nice to have a few, and again, I explain about, you know, why you would want different ones for different things. [00:49:35] And so she decided she wants a new one and she went back to the course and went through the lessons and came on one of my calls and was. I've done it, , I've just done it and, and like I literally just went back and, and did exactly what you said and I've done another one. And she was like, that's amazing. [00:49:53] And then she's doing another one. And it's like, that's the point, like by going through it with you like [00:50:00] that. And even when I'm talking about different systems, the way I try and explain, and obviously you know, you have different systems to choose from, but the way I try to explain it is if you understand what you are trying to do or what you need to do, even if you then go to a different system, you know, okay, I need a page or a landing page, which might be called a website on some things. [00:50:21] Or it might be called a site, or it might be called a page, or it might be called a landing page and I need some kind of form or opt-in or pop in, pop up. So again, where's that gonna be? And I need another page for a thank you page, and I need some kind of automation and I need something to trigger it. So even if you're moving and changing, The, like you said, the idea for me is I teach you the understanding of it and then you can rinse and repeat it. [00:50:44] Mm-hmm. , because, I dunno about you, Sarah. One of the things I found in the online space and, and talking of humane marketing and doing the right thing for our customers is, and one thing that I've been complimented on, which is lovely, is that I don't set my members [00:51:00] up on my students up to always need me. [00:51:02] Mm-hmm. , my aim is to give them the tools and the strategies and it's the empowerment for the empowerment Exactly. To do it themselves again. Yeah. Rather than, okay, I'm gonna give you so much and then, you know, if you want the rest, you're gonna have to come and do this, and do this and do this. Right. It. No, I am so over the moon and she just ha so happens to also be a member as well. [00:51:25] But even, and I, and funnily enough, when I was doing the challenge, I re-interviewed some of the past member some of the past students. And again, they said exactly the same. They were like, I did another one and I did another one. And the other thing that's really lovely actually is I have some marketers come to me and say, can I use it for clients? [00:51:41] And I'm like, if you are, you can come and learn the skill and learn the process and then offer that as a service. And then you can now be, I can create your opt-in, I can set up your email and absolutely fine. You can use my tools and my strategies and my stuff. That is fine if, as long as that's giving you another skill [00:52:00] and you are obviously not selling the corso, as long as you're using the things, that's fine. [00:52:04] And, but I love that. I love that we empower people to, to do those things so they don't have to come back to me and go, I'm gonna have to join again cuz I can't remember how to do it. [00:52:13] Sarah: Yeah, I, I just had my first group in the Humane Marketing Circle go through my book, the marketing, like we're human and they organized everything themselves. [00:52:24] So basically it's member organized and they got together, you know, amazing during three sessions, worked through my workbooks that are available for free. And so I'm like, this is exactly what we need. You know, we don't need more gurus. We need people to get empowered and then do it themselves. Just get the tools and then do it themselves. [00:52:46] And you are so right. And I think, yeah, this conversation here has been so helpful because people are like, Okay. I'm getting the big picture and I'm really getting the details and, and, and maybe they can just, you know, do it themselves now that, that [00:53:00] would [00:53:00] Teresa: be great. And for summits, right? More than enough on the challenge. [00:53:04] I had a number of people, in fact, a huge percentage of people that we talked about, you know, this is how you come up with an idea. These are sort of things that I consider and then they'd come to. , the coaching call I did alongside it. And then the next day they're like, I've created it. Yeah. And I'm like, that's amazing. [00:53:19] Awesome. Yeah. And then, and I had actually, and I'd never had this before, but I had two people actually within the five days create the thing and then they got bit stuck with the tech. Cuz obviously I can only go into so much on a challenge about that. But then they post in the group and I was like, have you changed up to that? [00:53:35] Do this to this? And they were like, I can't honestly believe you're helping me do this. Like Yeah. But you've come into the challenge trying to achieve something and you are working really hard to achieve it. Why wouldn't I help you to achieve it? Mm-hmm. Yes. I know I have a course that teaches all this, but you are so far ahead already. [00:53:51] Yeah. And I would've literally left you at the last hurdle. And, and [00:53:55] Sarah: basically they only needed that missing piece and Yeah. [00:53:58] Teresa: Yeah. And if I hadn. [00:54:00] Thought about them in the way I do and treat my audience the way I do. I'd been like, well that's fine cuz that's in the course. So if you wanna buy the course, it looks there to do that. [00:54:07] And it was like, no, this woman and the woman I was talking about, she has a young child. It was like an 18 month old and it was like, I know how difficult it was for you to turn up and go through the challenge because of how busy you are and managing the child and all this, and the fact that you've done all this. [00:54:23] and, and it was really early in the morning, and I don't, I normally, I get up and I have a morning routine and I don't look at my phone straight away. But for whatever reason, I sat in bed and I was looking at my phone and that message came up. So she'd obviously got up before a child or a child had woken her up or whatever, and gone back to sleep. [00:54:38] So she's messaging me and it was like, I don't know, six feet in the morning and I'm like, do this. And then she came back, I'm stuck on this. Try that. Okay, that works. Okay, you need to change this. And at the end of it, she was like, I can't believe. Like, but you've just done that. And it's, and like I said, why wouldn't I? [00:54:51] Mm-hmm. , you know, I'm setting people up to succeed, not to need me and buy my stuff if they don't need to. [00:54:57] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Ah, this [00:55:00] has been wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing so much wisdom and, and tackling the tech, because , I think, yeah, it really, people are gonna take a lot from that. If, if you would add one last tip in terms of, you know, maybe also the content, how to make it humane, you

Tugboat Institute® member Dave Thrasher grew up watching his father found and build a company. When it came time for him to step into leadership, Dave was ready to take what his father had built and scale it. In the end, he founded his own offshoot of his father's Evergreen® company, which is run today by his brother Dan, and he started the work of scaling, always with an eye to maintaining his core Evergreen values.  In this Tugboat Institute talk, Dave shares his learning about the ways Evergreen companies can scale successfully. Many of them are the strategies used widely by companies of all types, but he has modified where necessary to ensure that as he scales, his growing company stays fully aligned with the 7Ps principles and the Evergreen mindset. He has had astounding success. Listen and be inspired to explore new growth opportunities in an Evergreen way.

Tugboat Institute® member Dave Thrasher grew up watching his father found and build a company. When it came time for him to step into leadership, Dave was ready to take what his father had built and scale it. In the end, he founded his own offshoot of his father's Evergreen® company, which is run today by his brother Dan, and he started the work of scaling, always with an eye to maintaining his core Evergreen values. In this Tugboat Institute talk, Dave shares his learning about the ways Evergreen companies can scale successfully. Many of them are the strategies used widely by companies of all types, but he has modified where necessary to ensure that as he scales, his growing company stays fully aligned with the 7Ps principles and the Evergreen mindset. He has had astounding success. Listen and be inspired to explore new growth opportunities in an Evergreen way.

Today's conversation fits under the P of Product of the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. Today I'm speaking to an online bestie based in Norway. Solveig Petch [she/her] who goes by Petchy is a brand strategist and designer for values-driven business owners who want to build brands their way; without compromising their integrity or resorting to predatory business tactics. She believes that building an impactful and profitable brand can be done without screwing people over or working yourself into a pulp. From her home office in rural Norway, Petchy crafts strategic brand identities for clients all over the world. She's passionate about helping business owners discover and define their brands' unique purpose and personality, find the confidence to own their sh*t — and tap into their uniqueness to spark meaningful connections and attract more of those omg, yes! clients. She is also the creator of the Brand it!™ framework, and host of the Brand it! with Petchy podcast. In this episode, you'll learn about building community through your email list as well as... Personal branding vs. branding: what's the difference Branding vs marketing: what's the difference there? Pros and cons of using our name in our brand Alternatives if we're not branding our name? What if you have outgrown your current brand? Branding architecture What's the future of branding? And so much more Solveig's Resources Solveig's Website Brand it! with Petchy Podcast Mini Email Course Brand Archetype - A Quick Guide Connect with Solveig on: LinkedIn Facebook Instagram Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening! After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast? The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers - a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact. — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] Hey pet so good to hang out with you today. Petchy: Hello, Sarah. And likewise, thank you so much for inviting me. Sarah: Oh yeah. When I looked at, , you know, our conversations, me being on, your podcast and doing some other things together, all of a sudden I'm like, I'm pretty sure I have PE on the podcast already and I realized I hadn't. So I'm [00:05:00] so glad we get this chance now to, yeah. To talk about branding. , I think I did tell you that we're featuring this episode under the P of product of the humane marketing podcast or humane marketing mandala. And so, yeah, it's this idea of creating a product and what we kind of discussed before, , recording is this idea of, well, how, how does branding fit into us being the product? Maybe a lot of entrepreneurs. That's what it is. We are the product, we are the brand. , and so, yeah, that's what we wanna talk about today. So maybe just kind of, yeah, take us right in there. I don't do long introductions. I kind of already introduced you in the, in the intro. So just take us into this concept of branding that quite honestly, I think you know this, and, and I know it, it's a scary thing sometimes for entrepreneurs, this word [00:06:00] branding, it sounds so official. And, and so, yeah. Tell us your approach to brand. Petchy: Yeah. So, when we spoke before this, this recording session, we were chatting a little bit about, you know, why do you actually need a brand? So maybe that's a good starting point. We can look at at that and then go into what a brand is. Mm-hmm and isn't, and then we'll just take it from there. So the thing with branding is. Some people are like, well, do I, do I really need a brand? But the thing is you already have a brand and that is whether you like it or not. So the question, I guess, is more, is it's a deliberate brand that you are actively taking control of. And that's, I think where a lot of especially smaller business owners go a bit wrong because they have a misconception in their heads about what a brand actually is. So. Because a brand, [00:07:00] a lot of people tend to think it's just the logo, the colors and how your visual brand looks. Right. But that is really just the tip of the iceberg. And your brand is really it's. What other people think of you mm-hmm and that's something that you just cannot ever be a hundred percent in control of. Cause you can't go into people's. Brains and dictate, you know, this is how you should feel about my brand. , so you can't control it fully, but you can try and steer people's. Views of your brand in the right direction. So a brand is what other people think of you, but branding is what you do to try and influence how people see your brand. Yeah. Yeah. And within branding. So branding are the actual activities that you do, right. , and that can include a lot of things like positioning, messaging, your brand identity, of course. , but. Your brand [00:08:00] identity, isn't just the visual either. It's your verbal brand identities. So all of those actions that you take to try and influence people's perception of your brand, that is branding I love that so much. So actually that cleared Sarah: up a little bit. Yeah. That, that definition of a brand is what people think of you, , when, when not there often, right? yeah. And then, and then branding is what you do. Also, let me do the question. Well, then what's difference between branding and marketing. Obviously we know that we overlap on certain things, but what would you say is the difference between branding and marketing? Petchy: I, I would say that branding is more who you are and how people see you and then, or how you want people to see you. And marketing is more how you tell people about who you are, like, how do you talk about your products? How do you talk about your brand and how do you reach [00:09:00] those people that you need to reach your ideal? Audience and those like marketing activities, I guess, is like, what do you do to get your brand out there? right. Sarah: Okay. So there's the brand, which is again, what people think of you branding. You said it's doing the thing. So, so because marketing, you said is then communicating, right? Yes. That would be a good word for community. Yeah. That's a really good way of putting it. And so when, when you say branding is doing, what is the doing. Petchy: That can look so different from brand to brand. But it's those, so it's, it's your visual identity. It's how you speak as well. It's how you put yourself out in the world. So I think. For, for smaller business. And it's really important to re remember that your, your visual branding is actually just a tiny, tiny piece of the whole branding puzzle. Mm-hmm . Yeah. You also [00:10:00] need to, once you've established your brand's foundations and you brand core, and you know who you are, you know what you stand for, you know, your values, you, you rock solid on that part. Then you have to go out and like actively. Infuse that into every activity that you do for your brand. Right. So, and that, isn't just when you go to do your marketing, but it's also when you, , so say when you recruit people, how you build your company culture, that has to be rooted in your brand's core, but also how you treat people when they come to you with complaints, for instance, on like, so your customer service representatives, how should they. Behave when they act on behalf of your brand. Right. What, where do you spend your money? You know, when you invest your money or buy services from, from other brands, are you conscious of where you're putting your money and whether that's aligns with your core values? [00:11:00] Because if, if there's a mismatch there. People are going to figure it out and it's not going to be good for your brand. Let's just put it that way. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. And, and thank you for those examples. , I'm currently working with the, a company for, LinkedIn profile for their executives and they did send me their branding guidelines and it's like a document with like a hundred pages or so. And so. That shows that, , they have clear guidelines about their brand and yes, that includes visuals. But it, for example, I always ask, what kind of tone do you want your LinkedIn profile to have? And so they have examples of tone in that branding document. So that would be the difference between marketing and again, branding is it's yes, it's doing things, but it's more like guidelines for how you are then gonna market. and that's my thinking or my understanding of it. Petchy: Yeah. So your, your brand [00:12:00] strategy in a way is what informs every single business action that you take, right? Including marketing. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. , cuz you could put it that way. Sarah: That's good. Yeah. We often hear the term also personal branding. So where does that come in and how is that different from, you know, the branding that we're talking. Petchy: Well, I kind of guess it's, it's in the name. There's a clue in the name, personal branding is more like how, how are you putting yourself out into the world and how are you being conscious about how you want other people to see you? But what I find is that with smaller businesses, smaller brands, where there is one person who is the main, character of the brand, I guess, or product of the brand. As, you said earlier, I find that the. Get really blurry mm-hmm between like the personal brand and the actual brand. And to a certain extent, I think that's how it has to be for the smaller brands. If that makes Sarah: sense. [00:13:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Because at least for my humane marketing, I always say bring more of you to your marketing because who I mainly talk to is entrepreneurs, but I even feel like the, the bigger brands. We do have this trend of wanting to make it more personal. So it, I would say personal branding somehow even applies to bigger brands. , it is just that it's probably gonna be more worldview and value oriented than specific to just one person, Petchy: right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that. I actually, I don't think that as a solo business owner or a small business owner, that you can remove yourself a hundred percent from your brand mm-hmm. Because with the smaller brands, you, you just, you can't rely as heavily on sheer size, you know, or your market share or, or your reputation. So that personal connection, that human to human connection becomes more important, really because you wanna build trust. [00:14:00] And that trust is much, much easier to gain for a smaller brand, if there's a personal connection, human to human. So I guess that's a strong argument in itself. Mm-hmm um, whereas like a big household brand that everybody knows about, they probably don't need that same level of human to human connection in the, in the big scale of things, but on, on a more personal level, The human to human connection becomes important. And that's when it's really important that, so if you, if you are a small brand now, and then you have big plans and you grow, and then you are becoming a bigger brand that human to human connection will go, it will trickle down into your employee level rather than yourself. And that's when it's important that your employees are on board with the brand values and the brand approach and like the brand personality so that they can act. On behalf of your brand. Yeah. And create, create those connections yeah. Sarah: For your brand. And that's [00:15:00] not easy. That's not an easy job, especially if you have like a huge brand, every, store clerk and everybody needs to be informed about those values and Petchy: yeah. Yeah. That's where it can fall apart. If you aren't clear on those foundations. Right. Day one. Yeah, because if you are not clear on them yourself, and then as your team grows, it's going to get more and more difficult to communicate that to your team so that they can take that and act on it. So I would say. Even, that's why it's so important, even for the smaller businesses to have a think about these things, even if it's still just the early days or even if it's still just you Sarah: Yeah. Quotation marks for, for those who are not watching the video. yeah. Yeah. What it makes me think also obvious is, if you are just a one, person brand, , a lot of the first things you need to decide is yeah. On the [00:16:00] name of your business and on your domain name that you're gonna reserve your website. And so there's always this question. Well, do I use my name? As my brand or as my website domain or, or do I use, you know, a name for my business and then use that as a domain name. So kind of like, what are the pros and cons of using your name or not using your name? Petchy: Oh, well again, this is very individual. Yeah. So I guess my. My first thing that I wanna say is you don't have to do anything if it doesn't feel right for you. So it is not like you have to use your name to build a, like a brand centered around you as a person. And it totally depends on your circumstances. , for some people it really makes sense to use their name and they want to use their name, that comfortable using the name and putting it out there. Maybe they know that, okay, I want this business to be centered around me. Maybe it's not even going [00:17:00] to grow. And that in that case, it just really makes sense to, , to use your name as a brand name and build on that personal brand. But there are businesses who are run by just one person who also like, can absolutely have a very different brand name. Right. So I think. I think it's very personal decision to make, and it depends a little bit on what, what is it that you're putting out there? So for a, for a coach, for instance, or someone who works with a very sort of tight closed, personal connection with their clients, it maybe makes a lot more sense to be using your name. Whereas if you are selling a product or if you're selling or a program, a one to, oh, a program or one to many mm-hmm , , Service then it makes more sense to have a, a brand name that's separate from your own name. Right. But that doesn't mean that you have to [00:18:00] remove yourself completely from your brand. , So I, I guess what I'm saying is it, it kind of gets down to brand architecture and how you want to build the layers of your brand as the founder. Sarah: Mm we'll get to that term in a minute. Cuz I think there's more to UN unpack under the term brand architecture. Now we're getting like super into it. , now we're gonna get geeky. exactly super geeky. , Yeah. What, what came up for me also is, you know, kind of my evolution of, of brand. So I have my website, Sarah and acro, and that's where I built my LinkedIn consulting, brand over the last decade or so. And so that was. , very clear to me, this is me as the LinkedIn consultant and, and, and I never, obviously you can't use LinkedIn in the brand, so that was already kind of a limitation, I guess, in that yeah. Needs to be taken into consideration. You can't just make up a brand name using, you know, [00:19:00] existing terms and, and names. , and then. You know, started thinking about the gentle business revolution and, and gentle marketing and, and, you know, the story behind that trademark mess. And so that's kind of another thing that I guess if you go with a brand name, then you are really, and I did not realize that I just went, you know, very naively into that thing. , but you do get into other territories where all of a sudden. It's not just your name anymore. , you're claiming a brand name and, you know, the story that happened to me, , you know, it published a book two weeks after I got a seasoned desist letter that I cannot use that name, gentle marketing anymore. So in a way it does feel like there's more considerations to think of when you are using you. Words and make up your own brand name rather than just using your cause. Nobody can, [00:20:00] you know, kind of season desist your name. That's your name? You are. No, Petchy: nobody can, nobody can go after you using your name. So there's safety in that, of course as well. Yeah. But I guess if you are a person who isn't super keen on being the face of your brand, Then one way to do that is to focus, your efforts more on like branding your products or your services, or maybe your signature method, finding like a brand name for those. And then. Still remaining in the background or the foreground, however much you're comfortable with as the creator of So, , for instance, I have a, a framework that I've, , spent probably 20 something years developing. , and I call it the branded framework and I then can say that I'm, I'm the creator of that framework, right? Yeah. So if that, at some point, if that grows bigger than me, Yeah. I don't know if it will. , , I don't have any fixed plans for that, but if it does, if it, if it blows up and it gets bigger than me, [00:21:00] then I can still be, I can still, say that I'm the creator of that framework. Yeah. Yeah. So I would then possibly lead with my framework rather than leading with my name. Exactly. You would take a new domain name. What's right. Yeah, what's right. And what's wrong. Sarah: Is no, it's very individual and it's a personal choice. It's personal choice. And it comes back to your definition of success. And yet it's not an easy choice because so often we hear either one or the other being the right. Decision, right. Oh, you gotta scale and go big and you want to exit, you know, your, your business at one point and that's why you need a brand or on the other hand is no, you want that personal connection. And that's why you need to use your name as your brand. Well, the pens, you know? Yeah. You need to actually think about how you see this business. Do you want to grow it? And if you don't, well, you're perfectly fine using your name and, and, and for me, even if you do. [00:22:00] You Petchy: can still use your, your name. Exactly. You see? I mean like, yeah, you see big brand names based off a real person's name all the time where you know that they are this huge brand with lots of employees, worldwide presence. And it's still exactly person's name at the top. There's no Sarah: correct answer. Really? No. And I Petchy: think that's something that's one of my pet peeves in the business world. This whole notion that my way is the right way. And then you have three or four different people claiming that it's their way. That it's the only way. Right. And really there is no right or wrong answer. It's only down to you what path you like to take. Yeah. And, and you can course correct along the way. So if you, if you start out using your own name for instance, and you feel like that's not. It's not quite right. Then you can, you can twist it and you can take a different turn. Sarah: Yeah. You know, what I noticed do Petchi is it's, it's easier for people to [00:23:00] be told this is the right way, right? They're like, oh, this is the easy answer that I, you know, I'm looking for. And so. When we tell 'em, oh, it's up to you, you know, you have the choice then they're like, oh, I don't know. And then, so really what we're saying here is like, if you feel like you are don't know which way to go, well, sit with it, then actually do the work and figure out, well, what. Do I want to do with this business? Do I want to grow it? What's my definition of success, all these questions that take some deeper work, because yeah, the gurus day will tell you, it's only this way or it's only that way. Mm. Petchy: And of course it's easy. It's I mean, I like the idea of just being able to take someone else's approach and make it work for me outta the box. But I think in reality, That works for very few people. Yeah. And I see it all the time when I work with my clients and the work that I do with my clients. [00:24:00] I will never design just a logo for a client for instance, and that BEC that's because I, I need them to do that deep in a work first, so I can do a, a good job and the resistance there to actually go and do that deep work is, is present in. 90 something percent of all of my clients when they come to me and they're like, oh, I just need a logo. I just wanna want it to look good. And oh, do I really need to look into these deep questions? It's, it's hard. and I'm like, well, you really do need to. And that's why the process takes longer than just like a couple of weeks to, to complete as well, because these are. Really big, really heavy questions and they take time to process. , yeah, for, Sarah: I really feel like we do the same groundwork because it's the same with the clients who just want marketing, you know, they just want clients. And so it's like, okay, just tell me how I need to market. Right. Do I need to be on Facebook on Instagram? Like, no, you need to actually go into [00:25:00] these deep questions. And I feel like. That's what we have in common. You then go into branding and I go into marketing, but the deep core level, figuring out, you know, who you are and what you want that needs to come first in both cases. Petchy: It does. Yeah. And what I will say also is after that initial period of resistance and feeling like, oh, it's too hard. It's too big. I can't do this. Once they start to. Like find the little golden nuggets within themselves that, that they already had. Like, all of this is already, inside. You, you just need to extract them. And sometimes you just need someone to help you. like, right. , that sort your thoughts around things, but really nobody else. But you can do the actual work of doing that in a work. And, and then. What I find is when people start to find those golden nuggets within themselves and they have those aha moments, they emerge on the other side [00:26:00] of that, really quite what feels like a bit of a Rocky road to them, I think. And they emerge with such clarity. Mm-hmm . That it's, , it's amazing to see the transformation and how they then talk about their brand or talk about themselves as a brand differently. Yeah. Afterwards Sarah: mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's kind of like the, the labyrinths I talk about in the marketing, like we're human book, you go in you rumble, you have to ask all these deep questions, then you stand in the middle of the labyrinths you rise. You realize how you are different, , from everybody else. And then you walk back into the world and you resonate, right? Because you are now clear and you can tell these stories that, yeah. That just resonate with people. And that's what the branding. Does you know that deep foundational branding, not the, not the logo, the logo doesn't do that. Right. Cause there's not, yeah, not enough deep inner work. , that's amazing. [00:27:00] Yeah. I wanna, I wanna kind of come to some other questions as well. Well, the, actually that term that you mentioned, , before brand architecture. So tell us a bit more about that and the different layers of brand. Petchy: Yeah, I'll, I'll try and, uh, make it, oh, well, simplify it a bit. Because brand architecture can be really complex, but we can also think about it in really sort of simpler terms. So in essence, brand architecture, it's the layers of your brand. So how many levels. Does your brand have, and on the one side you have what we call a branded house. And on the other extreme, you have what you call a house of brands. And then of course there are all sorts of hybrid models that you can adopt in the middle there. And a lot of us smaller business owners will probably find ourselves towards, leaning towards a hybrid model or, , maybe a, a [00:28:00] branded house. So somewhere towards that end of the scale. , and that's because we are naturally, we are naturally the focus of our brands, but we then might have certain product brands that then lie on the next level. Below us like, so if you, if you place yourself as the mother brand of your brand, , Sarah is, , on the top there mm-hmm and then you have your, your method, that's kind of a subbrand to your main brand , and any other like product or services that you decide to brand separately. So it's brand architecture is more about figuring out how all of these little puzzle pieces, , fit together. Mm. And then. You can also look at whether you want that. Do you want there to be a difference between your personal brand, , and your corporate brand because, and that goes back to what we were just talking about as well. And it's, it's really is up to you how visible you are as the brand owner. So if you're leaning more towards a [00:29:00] corporate brand, then you would perhaps not use your own name so much, but if you're leaning more towards. A personal brand, you would lead with your name. So, or in the corporate Sarah: brand brand, just be featured as like the founder or yeah, mm-hmm Petchy: yeah. And I mean, you have examples of this. So you have some of the big household brands where, you have Unilever, for instance, they obviously that's the mother brand, but it's not really that visible. When you go out and look into the world, you don't really see the mother brand as much because you see the, the sub brands, you see the product brands, right? They are the ones who take center stage. , and the reason why a lot of these like bigger brands that have a lot of different products do it that way is because it then allows them to go into the marketplace and compete. Against itself, if you know what I mean, they can have several different products, very distinct product brands, so, and they can be competing against [00:30:00] each other. Mm-hmm Sarah: so that would be the, the house of brands. Right. That would be the more the Petchy: corporate model. That's more of the corporate line. So for instance, if you have a very. A very strong, but hidden mother brand. Maybe they do lines of cleaning products. Maybe they even do like two different brands of washing powder, like detergent mm-hmm because they are structured in that way. They can do that. Like they can put the brands up to like against each other. But that's not the approach that most small business owners take. So we are more in the, on the other end of the scale, where, where we just focus on building a, like a solid core around ourselves. And then you can decide whether you want to have a prominent role in that, or whether you wanna step back a little bit and let your approach or your signature service. If you. Those to [00:31:00] lead instead. So it's, it's just figuring out like the prominence of the different levels as well and how it all works together. But, I dunno if I mentioned it to you, but I do have a little guide on this. Just a one page PDF that I will happily let your listeners. Have so I will send that to you. Sarah: Oh, awesome. Sarah, I'll definitely make sure that they can download that because I think that's when it gets complex as well. As you know, we were talking before we, , recorded this idea of what, if you have outgrown your brand and now you need to rebrand and you know, all these questions. Well, what do I need to change? How do you communicate about it? That's when it gets complex. And that's when people really need to ask for help from someone like you, because then it can quickly get in into very messy brands. Right. where it's like, yeah, I see it all the time. It's like that one times it's like that and yeah, it's just kind of gets confusing. Petchy: It's [00:32:00] one of the scenarios that I come across. The most, actually, when I work with my clients is some, they, they will come to me. They already have a brand and they they're doing fairly well with that, but it feels like something's a little bit off. It's not feeling aligned anymore. , and maybe they feel like they've outgrown their brand, as you said. And, and yeah, I think that's when it becomes even more important to take that step back and look at the foundations before you do anything else, because maybe that was the missing piece, right? , from the previous brand and a lot of the. I find that they don't have to throw everything out of the window and start all over a lot of the time we can take what they have and we can mold it and we can tweak it and we can turn that into the next iteration of the brand. So it's not, it's not always necessary to go right back. Yeah. Start from scratch. Sarah: I have a very personal question about my brand. You know, I have the humane marketing. it's more of. An idea as a brand, because my company is not [00:33:00] called humane marketing. , the website is humane marketing, and then I have marketing, like we're human selling, like we're human. Those are the, the books. So would you say marketing, like we're human and selling? Like we're human are kind of like the subbrands, even though I'm, I'm not really branding them, but I'm often talking about. This idea of selling or marketing or now LinkedIn, like we're human. Is this kind of a sub-brand even though I'm not really, you know, branding it per se. Mm. Yeah, I Petchy: think it's kind of just naturally falling into the category of sub-brand. Okay. , maybe you're just doing it sub subconsciously , but, and it feels like natural, but also I feel like you are a whole approach. The whole sort of human centered way of doing things has potential to become a brand. Of its own something bigger than you eventually. Yeah. Like if, if that is the direction that you wanted to take it, Sarah: That's so humane marketing. That's kind of the reason why I, you know, didn't [00:34:00] put it under my name. I was like, well, if I'm. Wanting to create a movement, then it's not all about me. It's about the movement and the idea behind the movement. And, and so that's why I went with humane marketing and the trademark and, and all of that. So, so yeah, I, I was just wondering, you know, what is this. A subbrand in a small business example. So for you branded, you said, that could become a its own subbrand eventually. So, so I'm thinking maybe marketing, like we're human is another example. Petchy: Yeah. Yeah. I would say that's, that's exactly how it would work. And then, , for now maybe you are more prominent than humane marketing. Yeah. But at some point you might find. That the roles change and that's okay. And you can then make a conscious decision of whether you want to lead with yourself or whether you want to lead with your approach or your method or your movement. Yeah. , but also it kind of gives you a lot of [00:35:00] cred too. If this thing grows bigger than you. If you managed to create this worldwide movement. Then imagine what effect that has on your personal brand to be able to go out there and say with confidence and pride that, hi, I'm Sarah, I'm the creator of this movement, you know, I'm the founder of this. Yeah. So they all, they're all connected. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I see how the personal brand plays into that now. Yeah. There's there's one, kind of final topic I wanted to touch upon. And that's this idea of the future, you know, what does the future of branding looks like? Which direction are we going in in terms of branding? Petchy: Oh, well, I, I don't think I have a crystal ball , but I, the way I see it and the way I'm experiencing it as, as a part. Like the business world right now [00:36:00] is that those personal connections are going to become even more important for, for brands as we move forward, because people are craving that human connection. People are craving to be seen, to be heard, to be taken seriously by a human and not, and to not just feel like there are a number in a sales spreadsheet or. Or in a CRM system. Mm-hmm I know for myself that makes me feel very, it feels like it's dehumanizing somehow. So yeah, those genuine, genuine connections, and not trying to present yourself as anything other than what you are not trying to con people just, just. Don't be an asshole. Sorry. Am I allowed to swear on your yes, that's fine. Sarah: totally fine. Yeah. And it's funny. Cuz just yesterday I, I got on a call from, with a new circle member, a human [00:37:00] humane marketing circle and I offered these coffee chats and. The guy actually said, you know, I really appreciate having this chat with you. I was really impressed by this human connection, cuz usually in these memberships, we don't get that. And, and that proves what you just said. It's like, Yeah, we're, we're used to just being a number, right. We're used to kind of just paying monthly subscriptions, but not actually counting as, as human beings or not having that connection with the, you know, the, the other people or the founders. So I think, I think you're totally right. What about in terms of go ahead. No, sorry. Petchy: I was just saying, I think we're moving from the sort of spray and pray approach to a more. Focused, deeper, but narrower kind of connection. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. The, which also maybe means, you know, smaller businesses, not giant, [00:38:00] you know, kingdoms of, of businesses. Like some of the big names had in the past, You know, smaller communities, but very meaningful communities. I, I think that's where we're, we're heading. Yeah. Petchy: I think there will still, we will still see those big brands as well, because they are so established by now that they, they just own a certain market share by now. But. When you see a lot of smaller brands emerging, it's, it's a lot easier for people to find a brand that really resonates with them, you know, that they really feel onboard with this brand's vision and what they're trying to do and the values and what they stand for. And that connection of feeling like you are a part of something. Yeah. And not just a, an invisible, insignificant little, little puzzle piece. Mm-hmm I think that becomes more important for. People wanna feel like they're making a difference or that they're doing good. Right. And, , whatever that [00:39:00] might be. So, I mean, I will find a lot of brands out there that stand for the complete opposite of what I stand for. But there will be people who resonate with them too. Yeah. And then I can go and find the brand that resonates with me. Mm-hmm and then that, that's my way of being able to influence the world in that direction. I wanna see it is choosing what brands I support and what brands I buy from. Right. Sarah: What about visually? , I remember you and I talked about the visual aspect also of future design. , what's your, future vision. Petchy: Ah, this is a big question as well. , there's this term that I've seen, going round the block, lately and it's de branding Okay. so the, some of the like bigger, more established brands have ditched, slightly complex logos and gone back to basics with just the, the sort of flat logos, very simple like logo types. , and I've seen. Some like [00:40:00] controversy around it as well. And like, people are like, oh, what do you think of this before and after? And you have a lot of designers, especially the younger designers going, oh, why are they doing that? Now? They don't look like, you know, they are not distinct anymore. They just look like one of many. And for me, I'm classically trained. I'm a bit of a dinosaur. I'm gonna age myself enough for saying this, but I'm trained the old school way to. To develop visual identities. And especially if we talk about the logo, that it should be able to work in its simplest form. Right. And then, so that was, that was the initial approach. And then like maybe in the, the old days, you didn't have all of the, digital channels that we have now in all of the different reproduction methods for. Digital print and all of that. And so your logo had to be simple, right? It had to communicate in a, in a really simple, way and be really distinct, , just in one color and just flat. [00:41:00] So that's where like I come from and then you can add things to it. And I think with the, with technology, just moving so fast, we were able to do so many things to these logo. So easily, we could just like add a drop shadow, or we could add a gradient or we could make it look fancy or we could animate logos and and somewhere in that, I think we lost the simplicity. That's really powerful. Mm-hmm because we just started adding things because we could . Right. , and the way I see it now is more brands are returning to. The basics, because even though we have now, all of these options are how to, how to place our logo. And really, we aren't limited to anything, but it's, it's just going back to the basics and Sarah: seems, seems to be a movement kind of everywhere. Right. And it's, it's bad to me it's going in the right direction and we need to simplify everywhere, you know? [00:42:00] Yeah. And that's Petchy: not to say that you can't start with a simple logo and add something fancy to it, but it's. Then you will always have that really solid recognizable icon that, that you can go back to. So, okay. So all of these special effects, they're all just fashion, you know, they're all just like trends, pleading trends. So maybe one year gradient logos are all the rage. Everybody wants a gradient logo and they're like a year after. That trend is gone and it's nice then to have a, just a clean, timeless logo that you can revert back to him and then yeah, tweak it. Sarah: I'm just also thinking, you know, about. I don't know, printing, for example, like every time you print such a complicated logo while you use more ink. Right. And, and so just sustainably thinking also it, it [00:43:00] needs to go into the direction of simplifying and going back to basics and, and yeah, to me, that seems to the right direction. Anyway, I think we kind of got lost. Just like, yeah, everywhere. We got lost with technology and robots and chatbots and all of that. And now we just need to come back to basics and, Petchy: and, but there's no wonder I'm, I'm an early adopter of all like kinds of technology. I love new technology. I love new gadgets. So I get that. It's, you know, it's fun to play with. But I don't think we should lose the sight of the basics and right where we came from either. So finding a striking a balance there, I think is good. Yeah. Is the future of branding finding that sweet spot and what works for you? Mm-hmm yeah. So not necessarily looking to a different brand or other brands, like bigger brands to figure out what's right for you. Don't don't just copy. Just. That sort of introspective mm [00:44:00] wonderful things. Sarah: This has been really great. Thanks so much. Petchi for having this conversation and sharing so much wisdom. I always, I think for inviting me. Yeah. Thank you. I always ask one last question, , before you share where people can find you, but what are you grateful for today or this week? Petchy: , today, well, not just today and not just this week, but just this, this year or this decade. , I'm just really grateful for living in a very safe country. I have food, I have clothes. I have a roof over my head and a wonderful family. And, that's something to be grateful for. I think in these. These times where we see what's happening around the world. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. Happy for you. Thank you. Share with us where people can find you and, mention maybe that PDF. Do you want to just send me that or is there a link that, , I can, Petchy: , yeah, I can send you that. Afterwards and you can put it wherever you, you. [00:45:00] Yeah. So wish, , yeah, no, the best place to go and find me and learn more about me online is my website. You'll find everything there from like my approach, , and what I'm all about and ways to work with me and how to find me in other channels. And that's pet.co. , I also hung out on Instagram quite a lot. And on LinkedIn. But you won't probably see me pop up in your feed because the action is all in the sort of DMS and, , and that, but it's petri.co on, on Instagram as well. If you wanna follow along there. And, , like I said, my feed is a static evergreen, nine grid. So the best way to connect with me on there is just to slide into my DMS and say, hello. . Sarah: Wonderful. Thanks so much. This was amazing. I learned a lot. So thank you for that pet. Thanks for being here. Petchy: Thanks for having me.[00:46:00] [00:47:00]

Today's conversation fits under the P of Product of the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. Today I'm speaking to an online bestie based in Norway. Solveig Petch [she/her] who goes by Petchy is a brand strategist and designer for values-driven business owners who want to build brands their way; without compromising their integrity or resorting to predatory business tactics. She believes that building an impactful and profitable brand can be done without screwing people over or working yourself into a pulp. From her home office in rural Norway, Petchy crafts strategic brand identities for clients all over the world. She's passionate about helping business owners discover and define their brands' unique purpose and personality, find the confidence to own their sh*t — and tap into their uniqueness to spark meaningful connections and attract more of those omg, yes! clients. She is also the creator of the Brand it!™ framework, and host of the Brand it! with Petchy podcast. In this episode, you'll learn about building community through your email list as well as...   Personal branding vs. branding: what's the difference Branding vs marketing: what's the difference there? Pros and cons of using our name in our brand Alternatives if we're not branding our name? What if you have outgrown your current brand? Branding architecture What's the future of branding? And so much more Solveig's Resources   Solveig's Website Brand it! with Petchy Podcast Mini Email Course Brand Archetype - A Quick Guide Connect with Solveig on: LinkedIn Facebook Instagram   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] Hey pet so good to hang out with you today.  Petchy: Hello, Sarah. And likewise, thank you so much for inviting me.  Sarah: Oh yeah. When I looked at, , you know, our conversations, me being on, your podcast and doing some other things together, all of a sudden I'm like, I'm pretty sure I have PE on the podcast already and I realized I hadn't. So I'm [00:05:00] so glad we get this chance now to, yeah. To talk about branding. , I think I did tell you that we're featuring this episode under the P of product of the humane marketing podcast or humane marketing mandala. And so, yeah, it's this idea of creating a product and what we kind of discussed before, , recording is this idea of, well, how, how does branding fit into us being the product? Maybe a lot of entrepreneurs. That's what it is. We are the product, we are the brand. , and so, yeah, that's what we wanna talk about today. So maybe just kind of, yeah, take us right in there. I don't do long introductions. I kind of already introduced you in the, in the intro. So just take us into this concept of branding that quite honestly, I think you know this, and, and I know it, it's a scary thing sometimes for entrepreneurs, this word [00:06:00] branding, it sounds so official. And, and so, yeah. Tell us your approach to brand.  Petchy: Yeah. So, when we spoke before this, this recording session, we were chatting a little bit about, you know, why do you actually need a brand? So maybe that's a good starting point. We can look at at that and then go into what a brand is. Mm-hmm and isn't, and then we'll just take it from there. So the thing with branding is. Some people are like, well, do I, do I really need a brand? But the thing is you already have a brand and that is whether you like it or not. So the question, I guess, is more, is it's a deliberate brand that you are actively taking control of. And that's, I think where a lot of especially smaller business owners go a bit wrong because they have a misconception in their heads about what a brand actually is. So. Because a brand, [00:07:00] a lot of people tend to think it's just the logo, the colors and how your visual brand looks. Right. But that is really just the tip of the iceberg. And your brand is really it's. What other people think of you mm-hmm and that's something that you just cannot ever be a hundred percent in control of. Cause you can't go into people's. Brains and dictate, you know, this is how you should feel about my brand. , so you can't control it fully, but you can try and steer people's. Views of your brand in the right direction. So a brand is what other people think of you, but branding is what you do to try and influence how people see your brand. Yeah. Yeah. And within branding. So branding are the actual activities that you do, right. , and that can include a lot of things like positioning, messaging, your brand identity, of course. , but. Your brand [00:08:00] identity, isn't just the visual either. It's your verbal brand identities. So all of those actions that you take to try and influence people's perception of your brand, that is branding I love that so much. So actually that cleared  Sarah: up a little bit. Yeah. That, that definition of a brand is what people think of you, , when, when not there often, right? yeah. And then, and then branding is what you do. Also, let me do the question. Well, then what's difference between branding and marketing. Obviously we know that we overlap on certain things, but what would you say is the difference between branding and marketing?  Petchy: I, I would say that branding is more who you are and how people see you and then, or how you want people to see you. And marketing is more how you tell people about who you are, like, how do you talk about your products? How do you talk about your brand and how do you reach [00:09:00] those people that you need to reach your ideal? Audience and those like marketing activities, I guess, is like, what do you do to get your brand out there? right.  Sarah: Okay. So there's the brand, which is again, what people think of you branding. You said it's doing the thing. So, so because marketing, you said is then communicating, right? Yes. That would be a good word for community. Yeah. That's a really good way of putting it. And so when, when you say branding is doing, what is the doing.  Petchy: That can look so different from brand to brand. But it's those, so it's, it's your visual identity. It's how you speak as well. It's how you put yourself out in the world. So I think. For, for smaller business. And it's really important to re remember that your, your visual branding is actually just a tiny, tiny piece of the whole branding puzzle. Mm-hmm . Yeah. You also [00:10:00] need to, once you've established your brand's foundations and you brand core, and you know who you are, you know what you stand for, you know, your values, you, you rock solid on that part. Then you have to go out and like actively. Infuse that into every activity that you do for your brand. Right. So, and that, isn't just when you go to do your marketing, but it's also when you, , so say when you recruit people, how you build your company culture, that has to be rooted in your brand's core, but also how you treat people when they come to you with complaints, for instance, on like, so your customer service representatives, how should they. Behave when they act on behalf of your brand. Right. What, where do you spend your money? You know, when you invest your money or buy services from, from other brands, are you conscious of where you're putting your money and whether that's aligns with your core values? [00:11:00] Because if, if there's a mismatch there. People are going to figure it out and it's not going to be good for your brand. Let's just put it that way.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. And, and thank you for those examples. , I'm currently working with the, a company for, LinkedIn profile for their executives and they did send me their branding guidelines and it's like a document with like a hundred pages or so. And so. That shows that, , they have clear guidelines about their brand and yes, that includes visuals. But it, for example, I always ask, what kind of tone do you want your LinkedIn profile to have? And so they have examples of tone in that branding document. So that would be the difference between marketing and again, branding is it's yes, it's doing things, but it's more like guidelines for how you are then gonna market. and that's my thinking or my understanding of it.  Petchy: Yeah. So your, your brand [00:12:00] strategy in a way is what informs every single business action that you take, right? Including marketing. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. , cuz you could put it that way.  Sarah: That's good. Yeah. We often hear the term also personal branding. So where does that come in and how is that different from, you know, the branding that we're talking. Petchy: Well, I kind of guess it's, it's in the name. There's a clue in the name, personal branding is more like how, how are you putting yourself out into the world and how are you being conscious about how you want other people to see you? But what I find is that with smaller businesses, smaller brands, where there is one person who is the main, character of the brand, I guess, or product of the brand. As, you said earlier, I find that the. Get really blurry mm-hmm between like the personal brand and the actual brand. And to a certain extent, I think that's how it has to be for the smaller brands. If that makes  Sarah: sense. [00:13:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Because at least for my humane marketing, I always say bring more of you to your marketing because who I mainly talk to is entrepreneurs, but I even feel like the, the bigger brands. We do have this trend of wanting to make it more personal. So it, I would say personal branding somehow even applies to bigger brands. , it is just that it's probably gonna be more worldview and value oriented than specific to just one person,  Petchy: right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that. I actually, I don't think that as a solo business owner or a small business owner, that you can remove yourself a hundred percent from your brand mm-hmm. Because with the smaller brands, you, you just, you can't rely as heavily on sheer size, you know, or your market share or, or your reputation. So that personal connection, that human to human connection becomes more important, really because you wanna build trust. [00:14:00] And that trust is much, much easier to gain for a smaller brand, if there's a personal connection, human to human. So I guess that's a strong argument in itself. Mm-hmm um, whereas like a big household brand that everybody knows about, they probably don't need that same level of human to human connection in the, in the big scale of things, but on, on a more personal level, The human to human connection becomes important. And that's when it's really important that, so if you, if you are a small brand now, and then you have big plans and you grow, and then you are becoming a bigger brand that human to human connection will go, it will trickle down into your employee level rather than yourself. And that's when it's important that your employees are on board with the brand values and the brand approach and like the brand personality so that they can act. On behalf of your brand. Yeah. And create, create those connections yeah.  Sarah: For your brand. And that's [00:15:00] not easy. That's not an easy job, especially if you have like a huge brand, every, store clerk and everybody needs to be informed about those values and  Petchy: yeah. Yeah. That's where it can fall apart. If you aren't clear on those foundations. Right. Day one. Yeah, because if you are not clear on them yourself, and then as your team grows, it's going to get more and more difficult to communicate that to your team so that they can take that and act on it. So I would say. Even, that's why it's so important, even for the smaller businesses to have a think about these things, even if it's still just the early days or even if it's still just you Sarah: Yeah. Quotation marks for, for those who are not watching the video. yeah. Yeah. What it makes me think also obvious is, if you are just a one, person brand, , a lot of the first things you need to decide is yeah. On the [00:16:00] name of your business and on your domain name that you're gonna reserve your website. And so there's always this question. Well, do I use my name? As my brand or as my website domain or, or do I use, you know, a name for my business and then use that as a domain name. So kind of like, what are the pros and cons of using your name or not using your name?  Petchy: Oh, well again, this is very individual. Yeah. So I guess my. My first thing that I wanna say is you don't have to do anything if it doesn't feel right for you. So it is not like you have to use your name to build a, like a brand centered around you as a person. And it totally depends on your circumstances. , for some people it really makes sense to use their name and they want to use their name, that comfortable using the name and putting it out there. Maybe they know that, okay, I want this business to be centered around me. Maybe it's not even going [00:17:00] to grow. And that in that case, it just really makes sense to, , to use your name as a brand name and build on that personal brand. But there are businesses who are run by just one person who also like, can absolutely have a very different brand name. Right. So I think. I think it's very personal decision to make, and it depends a little bit on what, what is it that you're putting out there? So for a, for a coach, for instance, or someone who works with a very sort of tight closed, personal connection with their clients, it maybe makes a lot more sense to be using your name. Whereas if you are selling a product or if you're selling or a program, a one to, oh, a program or one to many mm-hmm , , Service then it makes more sense to have a, a brand name that's separate from your own name. Right. But that doesn't mean that you have to [00:18:00] remove yourself completely from your brand. , So I, I guess what I'm saying is it, it kind of gets down to brand architecture and how you want to build the layers of your brand as the founder. Sarah: Mm we'll get to that term in a minute. Cuz I think there's more to UN unpack under the term brand architecture. Now we're getting like super into it. , now we're gonna get geeky. exactly super geeky. , Yeah. What, what came up for me also is, you know, kind of my evolution of, of brand. So I have my website, Sarah and acro, and that's where I built my LinkedIn consulting, brand over the last decade or so. And so that was. , very clear to me, this is me as the LinkedIn consultant and, and, and I never, obviously you can't use LinkedIn in the brand, so that was already kind of a limitation, I guess, in that yeah. Needs to be taken into consideration. You can't just make up a brand name using, you know, [00:19:00] existing terms and, and names. , and then. You know, started thinking about the gentle business revolution and, and gentle marketing and, and, you know, the story behind that trademark mess. And so that's kind of another thing that I guess if you go with a brand name, then you are really, and I did not realize that I just went, you know, very naively into that thing. , but you do get into other territories where all of a sudden. It's not just your name anymore. , you're claiming a brand name and, you know, the story that happened to me, , you know, it published a book two weeks after I got a seasoned desist letter that I cannot use that name, gentle marketing anymore. So in a way it does feel like there's more considerations to think of when you are using you. Words and make up your own brand name rather than just using your cause. Nobody can, [00:20:00] you know, kind of season desist your name. That's your name? You are. No,  Petchy: nobody can, nobody can go after you using your name. So there's safety in that, of course as well. Yeah. But I guess if you are a person who isn't super keen on being the face of your brand, Then one way to do that is to focus, your efforts more on like branding your products or your services, or maybe your signature method, finding like a brand name for those. And then. Still remaining in the background or the foreground, however much you're comfortable with as the creator of So, , for instance, I have a, a framework that I've, , spent probably 20 something years developing. , and I call it the branded framework and I then can say that I'm, I'm the creator of that framework, right? Yeah. So if that, at some point, if that grows bigger than me, Yeah. I don't know if it will. , , I don't have any fixed plans for that, but if it does, if it, if it blows up and it gets bigger than me, [00:21:00] then I can still be, I can still, say that I'm the creator of that framework. Yeah. Yeah. So I would then possibly lead with my framework rather than leading with my name. Exactly. You would take a new domain name. What's right. Yeah, what's right. And what's wrong.  Sarah: Is no, it's very individual and it's a personal choice. It's personal choice. And it comes back to your definition of success. And yet it's not an easy choice because so often we hear either one or the other being the right. Decision, right. Oh, you gotta scale and go big and you want to exit, you know, your, your business at one point and that's why you need a brand or on the other hand is no, you want that personal connection. And that's why you need to use your name as your brand. Well, the pens, you know? Yeah. You need to actually think about how you see this business. Do you want to grow it? And if you don't, well, you're perfectly fine using your name and, and, and for me, even if you do. [00:22:00] You  Petchy: can still use your, your name. Exactly. You see? I mean like, yeah, you see big brand names based off a real person's name all the time where you know that they are this huge brand with lots of employees, worldwide presence. And it's still exactly person's name at the top. There's no  Sarah: correct answer. Really? No. And I  Petchy: think that's something that's one of my pet peeves in the business world. This whole notion that my way is the right way. And then you have three or four different people claiming that it's their way. That it's the only way. Right. And really there is no right or wrong answer. It's only down to you what path you like to take. Yeah. And, and you can course correct along the way. So if you, if you start out using your own name for instance, and you feel like that's not. It's not quite right. Then you can, you can twist it and you can take a different turn.  Sarah: Yeah. You know, what I noticed do Petchi is it's, it's easier for people to [00:23:00] be told this is the right way, right? They're like, oh, this is the easy answer that I, you know, I'm looking for. And so. When we tell 'em, oh, it's up to you, you know, you have the choice then they're like, oh, I don't know. And then, so really what we're saying here is like, if you feel like you are don't know which way to go, well, sit with it, then actually do the work and figure out, well, what. Do I want to do with this business? Do I want to grow it? What's my definition of success, all these questions that take some deeper work, because yeah, the gurus day will tell you, it's only this way or it's only that way. Mm.  Petchy: And of course it's easy. It's I mean, I like the idea of just being able to take someone else's approach and make it work for me outta the box. But I think in reality, That works for very few people. Yeah. And I see it all the time when I work with my clients and the work that I do with my clients. [00:24:00] I will never design just a logo for a client for instance, and that BEC that's because I, I need them to do that deep in a work first, so I can do a, a good job and the resistance there to actually go and do that deep work is, is present in. 90 something percent of all of my clients when they come to me and they're like, oh, I just need a logo. I just wanna want it to look good. And oh, do I really need to look into these deep questions? It's, it's hard. and I'm like, well, you really do need to. And that's why the process takes longer than just like a couple of weeks to, to complete as well, because these are. Really big, really heavy questions and they take time to process. , yeah, for,  Sarah: I really feel like we do the same groundwork because it's the same with the clients who just want marketing, you know, they just want clients. And so it's like, okay, just tell me how I need to market. Right. Do I need to be on Facebook on Instagram? Like, no, you need to actually go into [00:25:00] these deep questions. And I feel like. That's what we have in common. You then go into branding and I go into marketing, but the deep core level, figuring out, you know, who you are and what you want that needs to come first in both cases.  Petchy: It does. Yeah. And what I will say also is after that initial period of resistance and feeling like, oh, it's too hard. It's too big. I can't do this. Once they start to. Like find the little golden nuggets within themselves that, that they already had. Like, all of this is already, inside. You, you just need to extract them. And sometimes you just need someone to help you. like, right. , that sort your thoughts around things, but really nobody else. But you can do the actual work of doing that in a work. And, and then. What I find is when people start to find those golden nuggets within themselves and they have those aha moments, they emerge on the other side [00:26:00] of that, really quite what feels like a bit of a Rocky road to them, I think. And they emerge with such clarity. Mm-hmm . That it's, , it's amazing to see the transformation and how they then talk about their brand or talk about themselves as a brand differently. Yeah. Afterwards  Sarah: mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's kind of like the, the labyrinths I talk about in the marketing, like we're human book, you go in you rumble, you have to ask all these deep questions, then you stand in the middle of the labyrinths you rise. You realize how you are different, , from everybody else. And then you walk back into the world and you resonate, right? Because you are now clear and you can tell these stories that, yeah. That just resonate with people. And that's what the branding. Does you know that deep foundational branding, not the, not the logo, the logo doesn't do that. Right. Cause there's not, yeah, not enough deep inner work. , that's amazing. [00:27:00] Yeah. I wanna, I wanna kind of come to some other questions as well. Well, the, actually that term that you mentioned, , before brand architecture. So tell us a bit more about that and the different layers of brand.  Petchy: Yeah, I'll, I'll try and, uh, make it, oh, well, simplify it a bit.  Because brand architecture can be really complex, but we can also think about it in really sort of simpler terms. So in essence, brand architecture, it's the layers of your brand. So how many levels. Does your brand have, and on the one side you have what we call a branded house. And on the other extreme, you have what you call a house of brands. And then of course there are all sorts of hybrid models that you can adopt in the middle there. And a lot of us smaller business owners will probably find ourselves towards, leaning towards a hybrid model or, , maybe a, a [00:28:00] branded house. So somewhere towards that end of the scale. , and that's because we are naturally, we are naturally the focus of our brands, but we then might have certain product brands that then lie on the next level. Below us like, so if you, if you place yourself as the mother brand of your brand, , Sarah is, , on the top there mm-hmm and then you have your, your method, that's kind of a subbrand to your main brand , and any other like product or services that you decide to brand separately. So it's brand architecture is more about figuring out how all of these little puzzle pieces, , fit together. Mm. And then. You can also look at whether you want that. Do you want there to be a difference between your personal brand, , and your corporate brand because, and that goes back to what we were just talking about as well. And it's, it's really is up to you how visible you are as the brand owner. So if you're leaning more towards a [00:29:00] corporate brand, then you would perhaps not use your own name so much, but if you're leaning more towards. A personal brand, you would lead with your name. So, or in the corporate  Sarah: brand brand, just be featured as like the founder or yeah, mm-hmm  Petchy: yeah. And I mean, you have examples of this. So you have some of the big household brands where, you have Unilever, for instance, they obviously that's the mother brand, but it's not really that visible. When you go out and look into the world, you don't really see the mother brand as much because you see the, the sub brands, you see the product brands, right? They are the ones who take center stage. , and the reason why a lot of these like bigger brands that have a lot of different products do it that way is because it then allows them to go into the marketplace and compete. Against itself, if you know what I mean, they can have several different products, very distinct product brands, so, and they can be competing against [00:30:00] each other. Mm-hmm  Sarah: so that would be the, the house of brands. Right. That would be the more the  Petchy: corporate model. That's more of the corporate line. So for instance, if you have a very. A very strong, but hidden mother brand. Maybe they do lines of cleaning products. Maybe they even do like two different brands of washing powder, like detergent mm-hmm because they are structured in that way. They can do that. Like they can put the brands up to like against each other. But that's not the approach that most small business owners take. So we are more in the, on the other end of the scale, where, where we just focus on building a, like a solid core around ourselves. And then you can decide whether you want to have a prominent role in that, or whether you wanna step back a little bit and let your approach or your signature service. If you. Those to [00:31:00] lead instead. So it's, it's just figuring out like the prominence of the different levels as well and how it all works together. But, I dunno if I mentioned it to you, but I do have a little guide on this. Just a one page PDF that I will happily let your listeners. Have so I will send that to you. Sarah: Oh, awesome. Sarah, I'll definitely make sure that they can download that because I think that's when it gets complex as well. As you know, we were talking before we, , recorded this idea of what, if you have outgrown your brand and now you need to rebrand and you know, all these questions. Well, what do I need to change? How do you communicate about it? That's when it gets complex. And that's when people really need to ask for help from someone like you, because then it can quickly get in into very messy brands. Right. where it's like, yeah, I see it all the time. It's like that one times it's like that and yeah, it's just kind of gets confusing. Petchy: It's [00:32:00] one of the scenarios that I come across. The most, actually, when I work with my clients is some, they, they will come to me. They already have a brand and they they're doing fairly well with that, but it feels like something's a little bit off. It's not feeling aligned anymore. , and maybe they feel like they've outgrown their brand, as you said. And, and yeah, I think that's when it becomes even more important to take that step back and look at the foundations before you do anything else, because maybe that was the missing piece, right? , from the previous brand and a lot of the. I find that they don't have to throw everything out of the window and start all over a lot of the time we can take what they have and we can mold it and we can tweak it and we can turn that into the next iteration of the brand. So it's not, it's not always necessary to go right back. Yeah. Start from scratch.  Sarah: I have a very personal question about my brand. You know, I have the humane marketing. it's more of. An idea as a brand, because my company is not [00:33:00] called humane marketing. , the website is humane marketing, and then I have marketing, like we're human selling, like we're human. Those are the, the books. So would you say marketing, like we're human and selling? Like we're human are kind of like the subbrands, even though I'm, I'm not really branding them, but I'm often talking about. This idea of selling or marketing or now LinkedIn, like we're human. Is this kind of a sub-brand even though I'm not really, you know, branding it per se. Mm. Yeah, I  Petchy: think it's kind of just naturally falling into the category of sub-brand. Okay. , maybe you're just doing it sub subconsciously , but, and it feels like natural, but also I feel like you are a whole approach. The whole sort of human centered way of doing things has potential to become a brand. Of its own something bigger than you eventually. Yeah. Like if, if that is the direction that you wanted to take it,  Sarah: That's so humane marketing. That's kind of the reason why I, you know, didn't [00:34:00] put it under my name. I was like, well, if I'm. Wanting to create a movement, then it's not all about me. It's about the movement and the idea behind the movement. And, and so that's why I went with humane marketing and the trademark and, and all of that. So, so yeah, I, I was just wondering, you know, what is this. A subbrand in a small business example. So for you branded, you said, that could become a its own subbrand eventually. So, so I'm thinking maybe marketing, like we're human is another example. Petchy: Yeah. Yeah. I would say that's, that's exactly how it would work. And then, , for now maybe you are more prominent than humane marketing. Yeah. But at some point you might find. That the roles change and that's okay. And you can then make a conscious decision of whether you want to lead with yourself or whether you want to lead with your approach or your method or your movement. Yeah. , but also it kind of gives you a lot of [00:35:00] cred too. If this thing grows bigger than you. If you managed to create this worldwide movement. Then imagine what effect that has on your personal brand to be able to go out there and say with confidence and pride that, hi, I'm Sarah, I'm the creator of this movement, you know, I'm the founder of this. Yeah. So they all, they're all connected.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I see how the personal brand plays into that now. Yeah. There's there's one, kind of final topic I wanted to touch upon. And that's this idea of the future, you know, what does the future of branding looks like? Which direction are we going in in terms of branding? Petchy: Oh, well, I, I don't think I have a crystal ball , but I, the way I see it and the way I'm experiencing it as, as a part. Like the business world right now [00:36:00] is that those personal connections are going to become even more important for, for brands as we move forward, because people are craving that human connection. People are craving to be seen, to be heard, to be taken seriously by a human and not, and to not just feel like there are a number in a sales spreadsheet or. Or in a CRM system. Mm-hmm I know for myself that makes me feel very, it feels like it's dehumanizing somehow. So yeah, those genuine, genuine connections, and not trying to present yourself as anything other than what you are not trying to con people just, just. Don't be an asshole. Sorry. Am I allowed to swear on your yes, that's fine.  Sarah: totally fine. Yeah. And it's funny. Cuz just yesterday I, I got on a call from, with a new circle member, a human [00:37:00] humane marketing circle and I offered these coffee chats and. The guy actually said, you know, I really appreciate having this chat with you. I was really impressed by this human connection, cuz usually in these memberships, we don't get that. And, and that proves what you just said. It's like, Yeah, we're, we're used to just being a number, right. We're used to kind of just paying monthly subscriptions, but not actually counting as, as human beings or not having that connection with the, you know, the, the other people or the founders. So I think, I think you're totally right. What about in terms of go ahead. No, sorry.  Petchy: I was just saying, I think we're moving from the sort of spray and pray approach to a more. Focused, deeper, but narrower kind of connection. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. The, which also maybe means, you know, smaller businesses, not giant, [00:38:00] you know, kingdoms of, of businesses. Like some of the big names had in the past, You know, smaller communities, but very meaningful communities. I, I think that's where we're, we're heading. Yeah.  Petchy: I think there will still, we will still see those big brands as well, because they are so established by now that they, they just own a certain market share by now. But. When you see a lot of smaller brands emerging, it's, it's a lot easier for people to find a brand that really resonates with them, you know, that they really feel onboard with this brand's vision and what they're trying to do and the values and what they stand for. And that connection of feeling like you are a part of something. Yeah. And not just a, an invisible, insignificant little, little puzzle piece. Mm-hmm I think that becomes more important for. People wanna feel like they're making a difference or that they're doing good. Right. And, , whatever that [00:39:00] might be. So, I mean, I will find a lot of brands out there that stand for the complete opposite of what I stand for. But there will be people who resonate with them too. Yeah. And then I can go and find the brand that resonates with me. Mm-hmm and then that, that's my way of being able to influence the world in that direction. I wanna see it is choosing what brands I support and what brands I buy from. Right.  Sarah: What about visually? , I remember you and I talked about the visual aspect also of future design. , what's your, future vision.  Petchy: Ah, this is a big question as well. , there's this term that I've seen, going round the block, lately and it's de branding Okay. so the, some of the like bigger, more established brands have ditched, slightly complex logos and gone back to basics with just the, the sort of flat logos, very simple like logo types. , and I've seen. Some like [00:40:00] controversy around it as well. And like, people are like, oh, what do you think of this before and after? And you have a lot of designers, especially the younger designers going, oh, why are they doing that? Now? They don't look like, you know, they are not distinct anymore. They just look like one of many. And for me, I'm classically trained. I'm a bit of a dinosaur. I'm gonna age myself enough for saying this, but I'm trained the old school way to. To develop visual identities. And especially if we talk about the logo, that it should be able to work in its simplest form. Right. And then, so that was, that was the initial approach. And then like maybe in the, the old days, you didn't have all of the, digital channels that we have now in all of the different reproduction methods for. Digital print and all of that. And so your logo had to be simple, right? It had to communicate in a, in a really simple, way and be really distinct, , just in one color and just flat. [00:41:00] So that's where like I come from and then you can add things to it. And I think with the, with technology, just moving so fast, we were able to do so many things to these logo. So easily, we could just like add a drop shadow, or we could add a gradient or we could make it look fancy or we could animate logos and and somewhere in that, I think we lost the simplicity. That's really powerful. Mm-hmm because we just started adding things because we could . Right. , and the way I see it now is more brands are returning to. The basics, because even though we have now, all of these options are how to, how to place our logo. And really, we aren't limited to anything, but it's, it's just going back to the basics and  Sarah: seems, seems to be a movement kind of everywhere. Right. And it's, it's bad to me it's going in the right direction and we need to simplify everywhere, you know? [00:42:00] Yeah. And that's  Petchy: not to say that you can't start with a simple logo and add something fancy to it, but it's. Then you will always have that really solid recognizable icon that, that you can go back to. So, okay. So all of these special effects, they're all just fashion, you know, they're all just like trends, pleading trends. So maybe one year gradient logos are all the rage. Everybody wants a gradient logo and they're like a year after. That trend is gone and it's nice then to have a, just a clean, timeless logo that you can revert back to him and then yeah, tweak it. Sarah: I'm just also thinking, you know, about. I don't know, printing, for example, like every time you print such a complicated logo while you use more ink. Right. And, and so just sustainably thinking also it, it [00:43:00] needs to go into the direction of simplifying and going back to basics and, and yeah, to me, that seems to the right direction. Anyway, I think we kind of got lost. Just like, yeah, everywhere. We got lost with technology and robots and chatbots and all of that. And now we just need to come back to basics and,  Petchy: and, but there's no wonder I'm, I'm an early adopter of all like kinds of technology. I love new technology. I love new gadgets. So I get that. It's, you know, it's fun to play with. But I don't think we should lose the sight of the basics and right where we came from either. So finding a striking a balance there, I think is good. Yeah. Is the future of branding finding that sweet spot and what works for you? Mm-hmm yeah. So not necessarily looking to a different brand or other brands, like bigger brands to figure out what's right for you. Don't don't just copy. Just. That sort of introspective mm [00:44:00] wonderful things.  Sarah: This has been really great. Thanks so much. Petchi for having this conversation and sharing so much wisdom. I always, I think for inviting me. Yeah. Thank you. I always ask one last question, , before you share where people can find you, but what are you grateful for today or this week? Petchy: , today, well, not just today and not just this week, but just this, this year or this decade. , I'm just really grateful for living in a very safe country. I have food, I have clothes. I have a roof over my head and a wonderful family. And, that's something to be grateful for. I think in these. These times where we see what's happening around the world. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. Happy for you. Thank you. Share with us where people can find you and, mention maybe that PDF. Do you want to just send me that or is there a link that, , I can,  Petchy: , yeah, I can send you that. Afterwards and you can put it wherever you, you. [00:45:00] Yeah. So wish, , yeah, no, the best place to go and find me and learn more about me online is my website. You'll find everything there from like my approach, , and what I'm all about and ways to work with me and how to find me in other channels. And that's pet.co. , I also hung out on Instagram quite a lot. And on LinkedIn. But you won't probably see me pop up in your feed because the action is all in the sort of DMS and, , and that, but it's petri.co on, on Instagram as well. If you wanna follow along there. And, , like I said, my feed is a static evergreen, nine grid. So the best way to connect with me on there is just to slide into my DMS and say, hello. .  Sarah: Wonderful. Thanks so much. This was amazing. I learned a lot. So thank you for that pet. Thanks for being here.  Petchy: Thanks for having me.[00:46:00] [00:47:00] 

In this muse episode I talk about how the the current economic situation impacts our pricing as entrepreneurs. And why instead of raising my prices, I decided to go against the grain and lower the fee of my membership, the Humane Marketing Circle *** Pricing is also one of the 7Ps that we discuss in detail during the Marketing Like We're Human program, my flagship program that I'm running again with a live cohort starting August 25th. It will run over 8 weeks and is a hybrid program, part video tutorials and workbooks, part weekly live calls where we deepen these concepts. If any of this resonates, please take some time to look at humane.marketing/program for a very detailed description of the program as well as a 19-minute behind the scenes video and then book a chat with me to see if it's a good fit.

In this muse episode I talk about how the the current economic situation impacts our pricing as entrepreneurs.  And why instead of raising my prices, I decided to go against the grain and lower the fee of my membership, the Humane Marketing Circle *** Pricing is also one of the 7Ps that we discuss in detail during the Marketing Like We're Human program, my flagship program that I'm running again with a live cohort starting August 25th. It will run over 8 weeks and is a hybrid program, part video tutorials and workbooks, part weekly live calls where we deepen these concepts. If any of this resonates, please take some time to look at humane.marketing/program for a very detailed description of the program as well as a 19-minute behind the scenes video and then book a chat with me to see if it's a good fit.

Today's short solo-episode fits under the P of Passion. As you know, the Passion is the first of the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Passion or Purpose. They go hand in hand. We start out with that P to make sure we create a business and marketing that feels good, even long term. If we build a business just for money-making, we'll probably get bored of it or even end up hating it. So today, I'm sharing my story of the first business I created out of circumstance and what it taught me down the line once I started losing my passion for it. In this episode, you'll learn about what to do if you lost your passion My first business created out of circumstance Looking for your why Questions to ask yourself to find your why and so much more   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] Welcome back humane marketers. Today's short solo episode fits under the P of passion. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven PS of the humane marketing. Mandalah in a, this is your first time here, a big warm welcome. Maybe you don't know what I'm talking about, but you can tell. Your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven P's of marketing@humane.marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one. And then page it comes with seven email prompts to really [00:03:00] help you reflect on these different PS for your business and marketing. So as a, you know, the passion P is the first of the seven PS of the humane marketing Mandalah passion or Perth posts. They kind of go hand in hand and I used them interchangeably sometimes. So we started out with that P to make sure we create a business and marketing that feels. Even long-term right. If we build a business just for the money, we'll probably get bored of it or even end up hating it down the road. And so my first business wasn't a passion business. It was a, what I call a circumstance business back then we had just arrived in California. So I had to. Corporate job here in Switzerland, I was working at an international business school in, in marketing and other related things. And so we arrived in [00:04:00] California. I settled put the kids up, but preschool and daycare, and then eventually started out my own business. And at the time I thought I'm going to go into being a virtual assistant. So that was the first business idea I had. But then back in the days, that was in 2006, 2007. It was like in the middle of the social media, boom, everything, Twitter was brand new. Facebook was kind of also in the starting blocks. And so I learned all about using social media for my own business. And then I thought, wait a minute, if I can do. That launch a business for my own. I can help other entrepreneurs and small businesses with their social media as well. And I was kind of, I w I wouldn't say passionate about it, but I enjoyed doing. And so that was what I decided I would do. And so when we moved back to [00:05:00] Switzerland in 2010, I then kind of pivoted to LinkedIn only to focus in on LinkedIn because that's where I saw a need over here in Switzerland. Some of the other social platforms weren't big yet. Like Facebook people were using it for personal need, but not on a professional side where LinkedIn, they understood. Okay. We can use that for our business. And so, yeah, it was a circumstance business. It also really. Fit me well for about a decade, because I was able to raise our boys at the same speed. I grew my business, so it served its purpose, but damn, after these 10 years or about around that time, I really disrespected a big rule in the Santa Croce household. And that is leave at the top of the demand. So Tony, my husband, and I often say that to each other mate, let's make sure we leave at the top of the mountain. [00:06:00] So what we mean by that is like leave or, or, or yeah, go or, or don't do it again before things turn back. And, and that's the rule. I didn't respect because slowly but surely things started turning bad. I started to lose my passion for LinkedIn. I started to hate marketing my LinkedIn business. Well, that's actually a good thing because it led to the humane marketing revolution. But yeah, I really, I really just kind of lost passion for, for this. Not passion related business. So I yeah, it made me realize I didn't build my business around a passion or. So I did what I always did back then. I went into the doing mode. I started looking for my why, and it really just almost drove me crazy. I remember having these [00:07:00] long conversations with my friend, Valerie and just saying, look, I think I just don't have a why. I don't know. It's I can't find it. I'm not passionate about this LinkedIn thing, but I don't know what else. Should be my why. It felt like I needed a why so badly because everyone else had one. And of course also biggest Simon Sinek said you had to start with the why, but nothing came and it really was a source for anxiety for me. So. Nothing came until I finally surrendered and let go. And yes, I also broke down and wept on that tear. The therapist's chair is saying that I was done with this whole marketing stuff. But that's literally when answers started coming to me, not long after that moment, I then had an epiphany that told me to reserve the gentle business revolution, domain name, and yeah. That the rest [00:08:00] is kind of history. That's, that's when the idea of gentle marketing and then, you know, the story about humane marketing and the trademark and all of that. So literally I had to let go and say, okay, Maybe I don't have a why or doesn't matter, I'm just gonna like go of this idea of passion and purpose and in that's when it started coming to me. So when the participant in the marketing, like we're human program, posted a comment in our Trello board this week that she was stuck with her. Why. I told her exactly that don't pressure yourself to find your passion. And instead, I kind of invited her to ask some of the following questions. So this is kind of, I'm quoting what I said to her. What if you never worked with a client ever again, what would you do? How would you know you are enough without ever making any more. [00:09:00] Your why might not be business-related at all, but since it's you, you can bring it into business. Maybe it's environment related, animal related universe related relationships related. What did you enjoy doing when you were a kid? If nothing comes, don't try to find the answers. They will show themselves. Just keep asking the question. So, if any of this resonates in, you're stuck with your why as well. I really just highly recommend you let it go and just surrender. The more you hate marketing, the more I suspect there's something wrong at the core either you're no longer passionate about your business or you've been following the wrong marketing and device, because if you're really passionate about your business and marketing, From within bringing all of you yourself to your marketing, it really should [00:10:00] just flow. And if it doesn't, I suspect you're still doing things that are not aligned with who you are and, or maybe also your whole offering is no longer aligned with who you really are. That often happens when people are told that they have to choose a niche and end up choosing something that after a while, no longer works for them. If you're stuck in any of these situations, I truly believe the marketing like where human program could help you. It's more than marketing. It's really humane business building. It's about creating the foundations for a sustainable business. So. It'll go back to enjoy communicating with your ideal clients. You can have a look at the program. You can take it online right now. It also comes with a full year of humane marketing circle community. So a monthly call to come and ask your questions and be in community. Or you can wait for the group experience, which I'll host again this [00:11:00] August. So again, you can find out all the details@humane.marketing forward slash pro. I hope does has helped you and maybe, you know, of someone else who is stuck with their, why? If so, I'm not going to say, share this episode, but, but maybe give them also that permission to just surrender and let it go. Because I really think it does contribute to the anxiety and that's the opposite of what we want. Right. A purpose. Shouldn't be. The result of more anxiety, it should be just like the result of surrendering and dressed and let it letting it come to you. So I hope this resonated with you. You find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing for slash H M 1 3 8 on this beautiful page. You'll also find a series of free offers. Such as my [00:12:00] Saturday newsletter, the humane business manifesto and the gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books marketing, like we're human and selling. Like we're human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients and the planet. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing? Find out more@humane.marketing forward slash circle. We are change-makers before we are marketers. Now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

Join Catholic evangelist and bible teacher, Hector Molina as he explores the Mass Readings for the Eighth Sunday in Ordinary Time, Year C.Mass Readings:Sir. 27:4-7Ps. 92Lk. 6:39-45"A Walk in The Word" podcast is a weekly bible study and reflection on the Sunday Mass readings led by International Catholic evangelist and bible teacher, Hector Molina.WATCH: View this video version of this podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/hectormolinacatholicevangelist?sub_confirmation=1 SUPPORT:  Become a Patron & Co-Producer of A Walk in The Wordhttps://www.patreon.com/hectormolina/

Say It Skillfully® is a show that helps you to benefit from Molly Tschang's expert guidance on the best possible ways to speak your mind at work in a positive and productive manner. In Episode 84, Dave Whorton—entrepreneur, investor and CEO & Founder of the Tugboat Group™—joins Molly and shares a powerful journey to redefining a capitalism that goes beyond shareholders to serving society. When his father sat him down and said, “You need to carry your weight,” Dave took his responsibility to heart, applying at HP for what he figured would be a janitor job. Experiencing the “caring for people” culture that founders Bill & Dave created imprinted on him. After Berkeley engineering (“best school I could afford”), the feeling of paycheck-to-paycheck, “In Search of Excellence” and wanting to be an owner steered his career. He shares his unlikely and unexpected first entrepreneurial experience, landing in consulting at Bain and venturing into venture capital at Kleiner Perkins (yes, John Doerr reached out, not how it usually works…though Dave did not immediately take up his offer!). He talks through his decision-making to delay pursuing his passion to run a company and immense learning in supporting start-ups—Google, AutoTrader and Amazon. Going on to found Tugboat Ventures® in 2006 and co-found 4 companies, including drugstore.com and Good Technology, Dave shares the pivotal seed planted when one of his entrepreneurs said, “I hate your (VC) model.” “Let me tell you about my people, my purpose, and our impact,” vs. “your get-big-fast and exit model”. The possibility of less transactional and more enduring were intriguing to Dave and led to creating a vibrant community of Evergreen leaders and companies. He's open about this most compelling entrepreneurial chapter—one that recognizes how ownership is critical, strategic & underappreciated and offers staying private as a means to go deeper than wealth generation and public recognition sought after in capital markets. Dave founded Tugboat Institute® in 2013 to connect, support and inspire purpose-driven leaders of Evergreen® businesses, for which the “7Ps” principles are the defining characteristics: Purpose, Perseverance, People First, Private, Profit, Paced Growth, and Pragmatic Innovation. The “7 Ps” can prevent you from outstripping your financial resources, culture and management team's capacity to learn, grow and improve. With revenues from $10M-$10B and 10-290 years old, the Evergreen® companies show how the longest living companies most innovative. Curiosity, can-do, an eye for opportunity, and exceeding expectations are constants in Dave pursuing his true north. Tune in to hear his journey, inspiring us to know no boundaries and to commit to taking action so that all can be safe, seen and heard to achieve our true and best selves. Molly's Thought for the week—thank you Dave! Evergreen leaders and their businesses are the opportunity for capitalism at its best. Learn more: www.tugboatinstitute.com

* He explains why "Bold Brands Win" is more than a mantra or a tag line. * Why his business model prevents him from taking on a really big client. * Dave explains his 5A MarCom strategy when speaking to your target audience. * He also shares why the original 4Ps of marketing needs to be 7Ps. * What's working on Social Media right now.

Dave Whorton is an entrepreneur, business leader, education reformer, and investor. Dave founded four companies including Good Technology and Drugstore.com. He also worked for three venture capital firms, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, TPG, and Interwest. A small angel investment that Dave made in 2005 opened his eyes to an alternative way of supporting seasoned entrepreneurs who wanted to build large, profitable, innovative businesses that they would run privately for their lifetimes. In 2013 he founded The Tugboat Institute, a membership organisation designed to support Evergreen leaders and their companies over the very long term. "We believe in the vital importance of humans coming together to create and grow enduring, private businesses that make a dent in the universe." - Tugboat Institute (https://www.tugboatinstitute.com/about-us/) Standout Quotes * "How do you help a company have good hygiene? A very important component of that is how you develop the family members into the business" - Dave Whorton [31:44] * "If you feel your company is deeply purpose-driven and meant to have a significant impact for a long time in the world then you do think naturally about it from a standpoint of stewardship" - Dave Whorton [34:04] * "How can I take this incredible asset and move it forward before handing it over to the next steward?" - Dave Whorton [34:16] * "I think it's really important to develop a work ethic in your kids, I don't care what level of wealth you have" - Dave Whorton [45:50] Key Takeaways * The 7Ps that makes a company evergreen: Purpose, Perseverance, People First, Private, Profit, Paced Growth and Pragmatic Innovation [21:44] * Entrepreneurs have to be very clear with CEOs about what they want from their investing partners [39:37] * Dave describes some qualities that he observed to be common among evergreen leaders which mostly include being introverted and humility [23:46] * Developing a work ethic at a young age is critically important and also exposing them to the importance of saving [46:11] Episode Timeline: * [00:48] Mike introduces Dave and tells us a little about him * [02:06] Dave shares his backstory and work background in more detail * [17:20] The Tugboat group and how it's evolved over time. * [21:44] The 7Ps that makes a company evergreen: Purpose, Perseverance, People First, Private, Profit, Paced Growth and Pragmatic Innovation * [23:46] Dave describes some qualities that he observed to be common among evergreen leaders which mostly include being introverted and humility * [30:18] How does Tugboat support generational transitions of family members or other closely held businesses? * [34:04] if you feel your company is deeply purpose-driven and meant to have a significant impact for a long time in the world then you do think about naturally about it from a standpoint of stewardship; How can I take this incredible asset and move it forward before handing it over to the next steward? * [39:37] Entrepreneurs have to be very clear with CEOs about what they want from their investing partners * [45:33] Dave shares his thoughts on generational wealth and legacy building in contrast to a focus on the children developing a work ethic and inheriting nothing. * [49:29] The failure Dave faced that eventually took him on a journey to where he is today. For more episodes go to BusinessOfFamily.net (https://www.businessoffamily.net/) Sign up for The Business of Family Newsletter at https://www.businessoffamily.net/newsletter (https://www.businessoffamily.net/newsletter) Follow Mike on Twitter @MikeBoyd (https://twitter.com/MikeBoyd) If you feel it's appropriate, I'd so appreciate you taking 30 seconds to Leave a Review on iTunes (http://getpodcast.reviews/id/1525326745), I receive a notification of each review. Thank you! Special Guest: Dave Whorton.