Podcasts about humane marketing

In this episode of The Humane Marketing Show, I'm joined by Jen Freeman to explore how your Human Design centers — both defined and open — reveal your natural marketing superpowers. We unpack what these centers are, how they shape the energy you radiate or absorb, and why knowing them helps you release the pressure to market like someone you're not. Jen clears up common myths and shows how understanding your centers can gently guide you to choose marketing strategies and business models that feel authentic and easeful. If you're a heart-centered entrepreneur or Changemaker ready to market from who you truly are, not from hustle or hype, this conversation will inspire and ground you. Previous Episode with Jen here. Here's what we discussed in this episode: What centers are in Human Design and their origins. Defined centers as areas of consistent, radiating energy. Open centers as areas where we receive and are influenced by others' energy. The importance of knowing your defined and open centers for self-understanding. Common misconceptions and the value of open centers for gaining wisdom. How understanding your centers can guide decisions and reduce pressure to be someone you're not. How your open centers can reveal what you are naturally drawn to offer or “sell” in your business or marketing. Using your Human Design to choose marketing strategies and business models that fit your authentic self. Watch this episode on YouTube Join our Workshop on June 4th -- Transcript   1 00:00:01.190 --> 00:00:07.499 Sarah Santacroce: Jen Freeman, welcome back to the humane marketing podcast it's good to hang out with you as always. 2 00:00:07.500 --> 00:00:09.810 jen freeman: Oh, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me, Sarah. 3 00:00:09.810 --> 00:00:28.310 Sarah Santacroce: Thank you. You've been on the show before. And we talked about human design. And if people want to go back to that episode, it's episode 194. So humane dot marketing forward. Slash. 194. 4 00:00:28.460 --> 00:00:56.510 Sarah Santacroce: This way, we take it a bit farther and further and deeper into, you know not so much about the different types, but more about the centers specifically defined and undefined centers. So again, if this is all kind of like complete, weird language to you. It's probably best that you 1st listen to episode 1, 94, so that you understand a little bit of the basics of human design. 5 00:00:56.710 --> 00:01:08.530 Sarah Santacroce: So, Jen, why don't you explain? For people who are relatively new to human design what the centers are like that we're going to be talking about today. 6 00:01:08.830 --> 00:01:19.320 jen freeman: So the centers in human design. They're a synthesis of many different systems. So they are. They do reflect the Chakras. They do reflect the Kabbalah tree of life. 7 00:01:19.460 --> 00:01:48.089 jen freeman: They go all the way down to genetic code and organs. So so when you look at a human design chart, it's a 2D representation of a 3D. Lived experience. And so the the centers themselves probably the simplest way to say it. They're they're portals for one, because where they're when they're open. It's where you're receiving information from the world, and then where they're fixed. It's where you're putting it out. I like to think of it as a radio station. So 101 Sarah 8 00:01:48.420 --> 00:02:01.600 jen freeman: going out, and that, you know, never ending, would be where your centers are fixed, where your energy is consistent, and you're radiating that energy into your environment where they're open is where you're receiving other people's. You're receiving my 1, 0 1 gin, you know. 9 00:02:02.170 --> 00:02:05.749 jen freeman: into yours. So so being with that constant interplay 10 00:02:05.980 --> 00:02:19.960 jen freeman: that's always happening. But this is why it's so important to know your centers, which one are defined because that's consistent. That's you. That's your radio station and which ones are open that are receiving because you're being conditioned there, which we'll talk more about. I'm sure. 11 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:38.109 Sarah Santacroce: I'm just gonna hold up for people who are watching on Youtube. I'm holding up this. Yeah, this, this chart, that kind of shows the the centers. So you mentioned the Chakras? So yes, there's the Chakras, but there's a few more right. What? What's in addition to the Chakra. 12 00:02:38.110 --> 00:02:53.609 jen freeman: Because that's part of like the Kabbalah tree of life. For example, if people are familiar with what that looks like, so it's a similar recognition that there are these portals of energy that are coming through us and to us. 13 00:02:53.760 --> 00:02:59.280 jen freeman: Right? So. And that's where the G center is unique. And that's that heart you just showed them. 14 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:00.280 Sarah Santacroce: In the center. 15 00:03:00.598 --> 00:03:06.640 jen freeman: That that is what's called the magnetic monopole. And it's basically what creates the illusion of a separate self 16 00:03:06.910 --> 00:03:11.089 jen freeman: and sets direction so that there's the apparent sense of sereness 17 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:32.619 jen freeman: right? Right? So and and again, human design is very deep. So I'm very aware with your listeners that probably every sentence we say could create more questions in their mind. And I just want them to know you're right on track. This is the nature of this. It's a very deep subject, a life, a lifelong inquiry. Really, you know, Sarah and I both have 18 00:03:32.730 --> 00:03:37.019 jen freeman: caught the bug. I've had the bug for 23 years. So I think you've had it 19 00:03:37.140 --> 00:03:38.460 jen freeman: 10, maybe. Yeah, yeah. 20 00:03:38.460 --> 00:03:41.200 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, but not as deep as you, you know. 21 00:03:41.200 --> 00:03:55.919 jen freeman: Yeah, yeah, so, but just just knowing that if it does raise questions, it's okay, it's great. Actually, it'll take you into wonderful places. But so we're gonna both do our best to keep it as simple, so you can apply it right away as possible. 22 00:03:56.390 --> 00:04:04.390 Sarah Santacroce: So you talked a little bit already about centers, one of them being the ones where 23 00:04:04.650 --> 00:04:25.470 Sarah Santacroce: you know who you are and the other ones being the ones where you receive energy. So the open centers are the ones where you receive other people's message and energy and the defined, or the would you call them closed centers? The defined centers are the ones where you 24 00:04:25.700 --> 00:04:31.650 Sarah Santacroce: you know you can tap into, because that's where you know who you are. Is that correct? 25 00:04:31.650 --> 00:04:32.210 jen freeman: Yeah. 26 00:04:32.520 --> 00:04:50.990 jen freeman: yes. So so something called the neutrino stream, which is an infinitesimally small particle of mass traveling just under the speed of light. So the defined centers. So basically, we are all being inundated with these tiny, tiny particles all the time, millions of them per second. 27 00:04:51.110 --> 00:05:04.549 jen freeman: So what? Where the centers are defined. It's where you have consistent conditioning by the planets of neutrinos. Okay? So it's you're still being conditioned. But it's all the time consistent. Your entire life. That's what's happening. 28 00:05:04.940 --> 00:05:15.480 jen freeman: Whereas where it's white is where you're both being conditioned by planets, by people, by animals, by plants, by like, it's like, it's it's really the felt sense of it 29 00:05:15.770 --> 00:05:27.839 jen freeman: is that basically, it's like the the where the centers are fixed. It's like the furniture. You never really think about it. You know, it's just there. It's consistent for you all the time, whereas where they're open, it's much more like the television 30 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:35.449 jen freeman: like flashy images, colors, lights, and our attention is very naturally drawn to the TV over the furniture, you know, unless you're a very, I guess. 31 00:05:35.610 --> 00:05:42.609 jen freeman: meditative person who likes to stare at your couch? That most of us are going to be drawn to those open centers. So 32 00:05:42.770 --> 00:05:48.849 jen freeman: so, part of how we learn about ourselves is, we see our defined centers. 33 00:05:48.990 --> 00:06:00.179 jen freeman: So let's say that, I have a defined emotional center which is the center of authority. It means that I need at least 24 h to make decisions. It means my emotions move on a wave 34 00:06:00.950 --> 00:06:03.309 jen freeman: meaning. I have a lot of feelings. They're data points. 35 00:06:03.590 --> 00:06:07.419 jen freeman: So if I don't understand that about myself. 36 00:06:07.750 --> 00:06:17.059 jen freeman: and I don't understand that someone with an open emotional center would be experiencing my emotions. They'd be. I would be. I would be conditioning them with my 37 00:06:17.060 --> 00:06:17.890 jen freeman: promotion. 38 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:21.770 Sarah Santacroce: So I actually have an undefined solar plexus. 39 00:06:22.170 --> 00:06:25.599 jen freeman: So so that would be where my emotions 40 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:29.749 jen freeman: you would be feeling them. And this is so. Wherever you're open. 41 00:06:30.030 --> 00:06:42.450 jen freeman: you will be feeling somewhat the conditioning twice as big. Basically, so often we think we're the opposite of what we are. So like, someone with an open emotional center can feel like, oh, I'm so emotional! 42 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:46.500 jen freeman: But really they're feeling all of the emotions around them. 43 00:06:47.380 --> 00:07:00.259 jen freeman: Right, and it doesn't mean that they don't have their own. But it's it's not the same thing. It's it's a much cooler experience than the emotions are very hot. So if you have it fixed, you just naturally have a lot of heat going through your system. 44 00:07:00.420 --> 00:07:06.539 jen freeman: So so the essence of this. And again, Noah is always with you and design. The challenge is to 45 00:07:06.690 --> 00:07:13.380 jen freeman: essentialize it for people to apply is that if you look at your chart. You get a reading, you start to understand. 46 00:07:13.540 --> 00:07:24.809 jen freeman: You have incredible. You're incredibly empowered to understand who you are in any environment, how you influence people, how you affect them, and also how you're influenced and affected. 47 00:07:25.370 --> 00:07:28.250 jen freeman: It changes everything, everything 48 00:07:28.550 --> 00:07:35.719 jen freeman: so. And that's something just a very quick, anecdotal evidence. I have a totally open heart ego will center. 49 00:07:36.170 --> 00:07:41.769 jen freeman: So part of what that means is that I really need to do things at the right time. I'm basically 50 00:07:42.030 --> 00:07:56.620 jen freeman: it's not. I'm not here to to will things right? Where if somebody, 30% of the population has that fixed, they are, it's healthy for their heart, because it's about the heart center, but when it's open it actually hurts your heart to try to will things into being. 51 00:07:57.100 --> 00:07:57.800 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 52 00:07:57.960 --> 00:08:09.690 jen freeman: And so I was in the financial industry years ago, which was a hundred percent commission. I was in this in the States, in the mortgage business in California, and a very, very competitive market with the broker's license, which is like 53 00:08:09.790 --> 00:08:17.120 jen freeman: and it my God! It was so painful! It was so painful, and I I finally used this tool to understand it was 54 00:08:17.490 --> 00:08:19.269 jen freeman: I was totally in the wrong place. 55 00:08:19.450 --> 00:08:38.956 Sarah Santacroce: Right? Yeah, yeah, that's exactly how understanding who we are and how we're wired helps us. Then, you know, choose the the right career path, but also the right business plan and the right business module and and marketing tools, etc, etc. Yeah, 56 00:08:40.260 --> 00:08:52.009 Sarah Santacroce: So would you say that, like, I think there's some kind of misconception, maybe, about open centers, like people think they're kind of 57 00:08:52.160 --> 00:09:00.350 Sarah Santacroce: scared about open centers. Maybe. Because yeah. Tell us, tell us why, what's the fear behind these open centers? 58 00:09:00.530 --> 00:09:08.459 jen freeman: Yeah, so so the thing about the open centers, is it? Well, if we basically just go with it, all human beings seem to tend to want to be in control. 59 00:09:08.630 --> 00:09:12.180 Sarah Santacroce: And so the open centers are where they are not in control. 60 00:09:12.180 --> 00:09:12.550 Sarah Santacroce: Right? 61 00:09:12.550 --> 00:09:29.789 jen freeman: By definition. It's like they're not in control. Right? It's like, this is where, if different influences, different information. But the positive side of this is. It's where you're you're here to be wise in those centers. It's like you're constantly having wine tasting of all these different possibilities. So 62 00:09:30.280 --> 00:09:35.460 jen freeman: when you are defined. You. You're just it. You're not actually wise about it. You just are. It. 63 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:36.300 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 64 00:09:36.300 --> 00:09:48.169 jen freeman: But where you're open is where you get to taste all these different people's fields and energies. And so like again going back to the open heart example. So I'm here to be wise about what is truly a value. 65 00:09:48.990 --> 00:09:54.049 jen freeman: and that is a very big difference versus trying to prove I am valuable. 66 00:09:54.240 --> 00:10:07.609 jen freeman: which is where the people have it fixed, are trying to prove that they're valuable. And again, it's correct for them, right? They're supposed to get out there and be like woo, you know, especially in the States. We're so very sales oriented. So you know they they succeed very well in those environments. 67 00:10:07.770 --> 00:10:09.159 jen freeman: But if you don't. 68 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:18.630 jen freeman: if you understand so like, even right now, sitting with you, I feel completely grounded and confident that what we're talking about has great wisdom and great application. 69 00:10:19.940 --> 00:10:21.540 jen freeman: but it has nothing to do with me. 70 00:10:22.040 --> 00:10:29.299 jen freeman: It's I'm I'm just. I'm just expressing what I've taste, tested and learned, and then I that ideally, I want them to go apply it 71 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:29.970 jen freeman: right. 72 00:10:29.970 --> 00:10:30.790 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 73 00:10:30.980 --> 00:10:33.696 jen freeman: I've tasted. Yeah, go ahead. 74 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:37.860 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, yeah, this is good. So I have this 75 00:10:38.628 --> 00:10:42.040 Sarah Santacroce: spreadsheet in front of me, where 76 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:45.220 Sarah Santacroce: I basically looked at my undefined centers. 77 00:10:45.520 --> 00:10:46.990 Sarah Santacroce: And then I 78 00:10:47.820 --> 00:10:59.619 Sarah Santacroce: given your like, we we did a class together that you taught and given that information. I basically sat down and said, Here's what I'm selling. 79 00:11:00.210 --> 00:11:12.570 Sarah Santacroce: because it's placed in the undefined centers. Right? So, for example, I have an undefined heart and ego. And so what I'm selling is worthiness 80 00:11:13.100 --> 00:11:19.409 Sarah Santacroce: or belonging to community or adaptation in times of shock 81 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:25.009 Sarah Santacroce: or ethics. So these kind of things. 82 00:11:25.300 --> 00:11:36.809 Sarah Santacroce: because that's what I'm constantly learning because of my undefined heart and ego. That's exactly what I'm here to, you know, give and share and sell. 83 00:11:36.930 --> 00:11:43.529 Sarah Santacroce: So that's would you say, that's an applied example of of how we can? 84 00:11:43.640 --> 00:11:46.029 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, tap into these open centers. 85 00:11:46.340 --> 00:11:49.559 jen freeman: Yes, and really harness their power. 86 00:11:49.980 --> 00:12:13.219 jen freeman: It's like, in a way, realizing what, Major, you're in in university. You're like, oh, biologist, right? This whole time. I was trying to, you know, be a Wall Street, and now you know or do business analysis. But I'm actually meant to be over here, and the sense of relief, the sense of oh, it all makes sense and the sense of not putting pressure on yourself anymore. To be something that you're not 87 00:12:13.340 --> 00:12:18.809 jen freeman: is so big, so like I have a chart of an entrepreneur. As an example. 88 00:12:19.310 --> 00:12:23.300 jen freeman: so much of my design. I'm designed to get out there do stuff. 89 00:12:24.020 --> 00:12:36.089 jen freeman: but I know I know that's my chart. I know that's my design. But I'm I'm here. So I have a lot of energy, basically. And I have the gate of power connected to my throat, so I know, when I speak that it will be heard 90 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:41.050 jen freeman: right one way or the other. You know I can't say if they're gonna like what they're hearing, but what it's gonna be heard. 91 00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:44.530 jen freeman: whereas if someone does not have a fixed throat center. 92 00:12:45.500 --> 00:12:50.410 jen freeman: then what that means is, they don't have consistent access to their voice 93 00:12:50.640 --> 00:13:04.030 jen freeman: being heard, so they often will have lots of stories like self-talk stories right about oh, people don't love me, or they don't like me, or they're not listening to me, but really on a mechanics level, they just don't have a fixed 94 00:13:04.130 --> 00:13:10.029 jen freeman: throat. So in that case they could learn. If they have something important to communicate, maybe write an email, write a letter 95 00:13:10.210 --> 00:13:14.090 jen freeman: that written communication could be received much better than spoken. 96 00:13:14.260 --> 00:13:16.579 Sarah Santacroce: Right, yeah. 97 00:13:16.580 --> 00:13:31.360 jen freeman: Sometimes people with open voices are so wise about the nature of speech that they become like incredible speakers. So it's it. But it depends on how how they're what they're telling themselves about it, right? Like, oh, no one listens. 98 00:13:31.740 --> 00:13:38.060 jen freeman: It's it's really it's so. It's so literal and physical and mechanical. That's the other thing. It's 99 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:41.429 jen freeman: yeah. The throat is a big, big topic, a big topic. 100 00:13:41.430 --> 00:13:52.340 Sarah Santacroce: And it's a big topic in marketing as well, because you know the throat is your voice, and how you are going to be heard, and so, understanding 101 00:13:52.650 --> 00:14:20.139 Sarah Santacroce: what your role is in this lifetime, and how you're supposed to be sharing that voice. Well, that's that's kind of a big deal right. And if you're forcing yourself to do one thing like you know, speaking on stage. But then you find out after a reading. Well, that's not exactly what's going to be easy for you. It's still doable, probably, but it's not going to be easy for you. 102 00:14:20.510 --> 00:14:25.166 jen freeman: Exactly well, and and to your point, I'm I'm in the process like we chatted about it. 103 00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:37.099 jen freeman: This in inspiration came to me. I mean, it's I'm workshopping. But I'm my current note. Name is the current current Newsletter. So I have the. My. One of my main gates is the basically the now 104 00:14:37.250 --> 00:14:50.540 jen freeman: I'm literally the voice of the now. So this is part of me using my voice of like, I'm just so aware of the now. And you know I have a background with astrology and cosmologies, and and I've very drawn to create a newsletter 105 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:52.910 jen freeman: to help people in real time 106 00:14:53.020 --> 00:15:02.489 jen freeman: be with, especially as things are changing so radically that there's an underlying support that they can lean into the quality of time. There's a consistency in the quality of time. 107 00:15:02.990 --> 00:15:11.550 jen freeman: and it's straight up. It's it's part of me being like I am the voice of the now, that's all I ever talk about to anyone all the time. Right. 108 00:15:11.550 --> 00:15:12.230 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 109 00:15:12.270 --> 00:15:20.410 jen freeman: So it's cool, because I just feel like, all right, just try it. You've been doing it for years, anyway. Why not just do it, and so it gives it so I feel a sense of confidence. 110 00:15:20.410 --> 00:15:23.059 Sarah Santacroce: It gives you these insights. Right? The. 111 00:15:23.140 --> 00:15:24.379 jen freeman: It really does. 112 00:15:24.380 --> 00:15:34.330 Sarah Santacroce: Yes, I want to take another example from from my what I written down. Oh, as you know, I have a undefined head. 113 00:15:34.590 --> 00:15:49.730 Sarah Santacroce: and so a big thing of what I'm selling is inspiration. Right? Is change, inspiration to do things differently. So yeah, understanding that. And just saying. 114 00:15:50.800 --> 00:16:10.839 Sarah Santacroce: because people kind of wonder sometimes, you know, family members like, what are you doing like? You're writing books like, how does that make any money? Or I'm like, well, that's that's my role in this lifetime is to inspire and bring about change and talk about change. And so just. 115 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:32.549 Sarah Santacroce: And it's not always easy to accept that either. To say, you know, is this like what I'm doing like? Shouldn't I be going back to, you know, selling Linkedin profile reviews and things like that? But I was not happy in that role, right? And I'm also a 5 1, as you know. And so it's all about. 116 00:16:32.630 --> 00:16:51.410 Sarah Santacroce: you know, spreading the message to a large audience. And so understanding that and going, okay, so yeah, I'll just accept that role. And this is what I do is, yeah, it's kind of like this big relief and big understanding as well. 117 00:16:51.780 --> 00:17:13.130 jen freeman: Oh, that's so beautiful. And and just I wanna point out to your listeners that part of what Sarah's talking about right now is that over the years we've known each other. Is that so? Being a 5, 1 means part of her role is one to many. She's here to amplify messages to larger groups of people, where, when she was selling the Linkedin profile that was one to one essentially. 118 00:17:13.130 --> 00:17:14.099 Sarah Santacroce: Right, yeah. 119 00:17:14.109 --> 00:17:16.119 jen freeman: And so it was not the right 120 00:17:16.469 --> 00:17:31.719 jen freeman: use where you can feel, and it just is off. It's like you're wearing like shoes a size too small, with a pebble in it. You know it just feels wrong. So it's in. And that's the thing. Also, like Sarah just expressed that accepting your design does not mean 121 00:17:32.309 --> 00:17:34.539 jen freeman: oh, no, I guess I just have to like 122 00:17:34.919 --> 00:17:51.059 jen freeman: oh, it's right. It's not like you're settling like you're like, oh, I had these dreams, and then, you know, and now I'm just going to settle for my design. It's like No, no, your design. The more you align with it, then totally unexpected synchronicities and possibilities open up things you could never have imagined. 123 00:17:51.500 --> 00:17:52.060 Sarah Santacroce: It's. 124 00:17:52.060 --> 00:17:55.499 jen freeman: And that's part of the mystery of all of this, you know. 125 00:17:55.850 --> 00:18:11.800 jen freeman: and as Sarah knows, I have a 20 plus years of Qigong background which is working with Chi for those who don't know it, working with energy. And this just completely maps to Qigong as well. You have to know your piece of the puzzle, as my teacher would say. If you know your piece of the puzzle. 126 00:18:11.900 --> 00:18:14.400 jen freeman: then you can fall into the hole effortlessly. 127 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:30.289 jen freeman: But if you're fighting your piece of the puzzle, and you're and you're like struggling to be something else. You can't actually connect into all the resources clients. It's it's it's it's so paradoxical, but it's like the more you can accept the limitation, the more you can thrive. 128 00:18:30.540 --> 00:18:39.099 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm, yeah, it's beautiful. There's there's another thing that I wrote down here is that I'm selling to twos. 129 00:18:39.260 --> 00:18:39.790 Sarah Santacroce: So. 130 00:18:39.790 --> 00:18:40.700 jen freeman: Yeah. 131 00:18:40.950 --> 00:18:41.850 Sarah Santacroce: That. 132 00:18:42.620 --> 00:18:50.200 Sarah Santacroce: How does that have to do? What does that have to do with the with the centers? Or is that something else? I can't remember how we got to that. 133 00:18:50.520 --> 00:19:01.199 jen freeman: Yeah, yeah, me, neither. Actually, the lines that's in lines and profile stuff. And that's styles of learning. That's so. It's not. It's not actually, it's not the centers. It's. 134 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:02.329 Sarah Santacroce: That's about the centers. Okay. 135 00:19:02.330 --> 00:19:02.949 jen freeman: Sounded like. 136 00:19:02.950 --> 00:19:04.649 Sarah Santacroce: Action from the centers. Okay. 137 00:19:04.650 --> 00:19:07.359 jen freeman: Yeah, it's more like a well 138 00:19:07.450 --> 00:19:31.910 jen freeman: to be just for those whose minds might be like, huh? So there's Gates, and those gates are fixed in a hexagram from the I Ching. The I Ching has 6 lines, so so part of what Sarah is saying is that like? So let's say she has 53, and 54 is her son and earth right? So if it's 0 point 2, it means the second line of the Hexagram. So it's incredibly precise and specific 139 00:19:31.910 --> 00:19:53.120 jen freeman: and very helpful. But but in the twos just also complete. They're they are projecting outward. But they don't actually understand. Other people can see them. They're kind of very mysterious, the twos, you know. And so in a lot of ways, Sarah, with the 5 of like she's holding up the flag of like, Hey, I've got answers over here. 140 00:19:53.740 --> 00:19:55.430 jen freeman: Opportunities to be like. 141 00:19:55.730 --> 00:20:02.869 jen freeman: can someone actually help me, you know, and of course many of us will be going towards the 5, but also 2 and 5 142 00:20:03.020 --> 00:20:14.029 jen freeman: are related in the lower Hexagram and the upper hexagram. It goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, so 2 and 5 are are both projected on as well. 143 00:20:14.030 --> 00:20:14.940 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm, so. 144 00:20:14.940 --> 00:20:18.619 jen freeman: So. So there's a deep relationship between the fives and the twos. 145 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:23.649 Sarah Santacroce: So okay, let's bring it back to the the centers. What? What? 146 00:20:24.470 --> 00:20:29.620 Sarah Santacroce: you know? What else can you tell us about these centers? I think they like a 147 00:20:29.740 --> 00:20:38.230 Sarah Santacroce: I feel like they come with a lot of vulnerability and and conditioning, as you have mentioned before. Right? So there's a big 148 00:20:38.540 --> 00:20:41.260 Sarah Santacroce: opportunity for healing, I guess. 149 00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:57.110 jen freeman: Such a big opportunity. And so and this is where, understanding that we are all conditioned. It's the nature of being a human being that from the moment we're born we're being conditioned. We call it culture. We call it family, right? So no one gets out of conditioning. So this is not 150 00:20:57.250 --> 00:21:07.760 jen freeman: this, is it? This is part of being human being. So then, from that place you can then go. Okay. How do I be wise about my conditioning. So I I have a totally open Asna of the thinking mind. 151 00:21:08.090 --> 00:21:23.740 jen freeman: And so and again, this is never ending. You're constantly refining this. It's not like you learn it once, and then you move on. It's like it's constant. So I've been in this past couple of months, and a very deep understanding of how deeply my mind is stimulated. 152 00:21:24.340 --> 00:21:50.990 jen freeman: and how important it is for me to be very aware and careful of what I put into my mind, especially as we're in all of these changes all over the world, right? As we're in this great moment of emergency emergence. There's a lot of people pouring a lot of fear and panic into the field where it's not good for my mind at all. Not that it's good for any mind, right, but if you have a fixed mind. It's not going to hit you the same. So I had to have a really deep process of being with. 153 00:21:51.310 --> 00:22:07.500 jen freeman: Who am I gonna look to for information. How am I gonna interact, you know, especially being in the States right enough, said the States. Quite a place right now. So and it was very pivotal to me to be like. Look, your mind is incredibly sensitive. 154 00:22:08.060 --> 00:22:14.509 jen freeman: You don't help anyone or anything by flooding your mind with all of this toxicity. 155 00:22:14.690 --> 00:22:18.770 jen freeman: I'm not designed for it, you know, someone with a fixed mind 156 00:22:19.020 --> 00:22:25.020 jen freeman: in a lot of ways. They're they're meant to be out there like hitting people with their thoughts. Basically, it's like they can like, do this. 157 00:22:25.020 --> 00:22:28.710 Sarah Santacroce: They're the ones invading you with their stories. Right? 158 00:22:28.710 --> 00:22:49.379 jen freeman: You know. And so and that's something where I've been. I really had to come to peace with and really, deeply be like, okay, if I feel drawn, I will go. Listen to a person, you know an article, a podcast. But other than that, I'm going to trust spirits going to bring me what I need to know, to play my part hopefully for the the benefit of all beings. Right? The sense of but it's part of that. 159 00:22:50.140 --> 00:23:00.760 jen freeman: I got to be real about the vulnerability, and both my parents had fixed minds so also to bring in again family. So in this journey of learning, how deeply their minds 160 00:23:01.180 --> 00:23:02.790 jen freeman: impacted me. 161 00:23:03.020 --> 00:23:13.289 jen freeman: So really, bit by bit, over time, unpacking like, Oh, wait! That's Mom's fears. Oh, that's oh, wait! That's how Dad approaches it right, and they're both fives. 162 00:23:13.520 --> 00:23:25.909 jen freeman: So they have a very different gig. I'm a i'm a 1 3. So I'm much more my own test tube. I get to come out and share my research right. But I got conditioned to think I was supposed to be 163 00:23:26.040 --> 00:23:38.809 jen freeman: something else, and that was very painful. So again, the more you can recognize your conditioning. And so the great place for your listeners to start very simply, I mean, complexly, but simply. Look at your family origin. 164 00:23:39.390 --> 00:23:52.699 jen freeman: What was held as values? Right? Was it money? Was it education? Was it family? Were they very open-minded and international? Were they very closed-minded like like, and not from a judgment place. Just true observation. 165 00:23:53.070 --> 00:24:03.289 jen freeman: and then look at your own centers. Look, where are you? Open, where were you being conditioned? If you have the capacity, you can run free charts all over the place. You could look at your mom and dad's chart if you knew the birth info. 166 00:24:03.740 --> 00:24:08.070 jen freeman: and you can. Just that is profound, profound. 167 00:24:08.070 --> 00:24:09.670 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm, hmm. 168 00:24:10.180 --> 00:24:16.300 jen freeman: So that's a great place to start right. And then, if we want to go straight to marketing business application. 169 00:24:16.600 --> 00:24:36.210 jen freeman: look at your business model. Look at your design right? And and so let's again take me because I know my design. When I was in 100 commission, financial huge egos everywhere. It was not my strength at all. But once I let go. I've had this coaching and consulting business for 12 years. 170 00:24:36.940 --> 00:24:49.879 jen freeman: I'm just being me bringing forward my research. That's all about spirit embodiment. These are my gates. How do you bring spirit into matter? How do you truly be aligned with the now in a powerful way and speak powerfully. 171 00:24:50.030 --> 00:24:53.279 jen freeman: so I just let go into it, and I'm very happy. 172 00:24:53.889 --> 00:24:54.500 Sarah Santacroce: Happy. 173 00:24:54.500 --> 00:24:57.870 jen freeman: Don't feel like I'm swimming upstream. People just find me. 174 00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:13.920 jen freeman: I just it's great. So that's what I would love for them to hear as well is just. If you feel like you're stuck, or suffering, or difficult man, there is a way, and it's not far or hard. It's actually right in front of you and these centers. 175 00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:19.130 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. And what I, what I like about this is that we're not trying to. 176 00:25:19.910 --> 00:25:25.059 Sarah Santacroce: you know, use human design as some kind of tactic that we're now going to 177 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:43.200 Sarah Santacroce: go into psycho mode, and, you know, try to get because we don't have access to our clients. Human design, usually, at least not our prospects. Human design. It's all about finding out more who you are. 178 00:25:43.450 --> 00:25:43.880 jen freeman: Yes. 179 00:25:43.880 --> 00:26:06.409 Sarah Santacroce: Using that to your advantage, and being more authentic, being the real, you right that that's what this is all about, and and for people listening. I think they probably understand by now that this is complex, you know, like this is very complex. There's all these different layers. 180 00:26:06.970 --> 00:26:26.749 Sarah Santacroce: And yeah, if if you're interested in finding out more and going a bit deeper. Well, Jen is coming back to us to the Humane marketing circle to do another workshop on June 4, th Jen, tell us a little bit what we're going to be doing on June 4.th 181 00:26:26.970 --> 00:26:55.399 jen freeman: Great. So one of my favorite things to do with coaching groups, such as Sarah's, is that we'll have an introduction looking at the main thing. But then we're going to have 5 people that will have their charts in advance that are essentially on the hot seat. So we get to talk for 5 to 10 min with each person, and look at the application so that you in real time can learn. You can see. And it's just fascinating how different each person is right. And then you hear their stories of how they've been applying it, or what they're doing in their business. And it's 182 00:26:55.490 --> 00:27:18.800 jen freeman: it's it is so inspiring. Speaking of, you know, inspiration right? So hopefully, you would leave that workshop both with an idea of how your own charts working, looking at like, where? Where are the strengths like? Where? Where? You're already playing to your strengths? And so you're like great. Just more of that, and be able to go. Oh, right, I'm trying to do this over here, you know. Maybe I should not do that. And so I think you we learn so much from each other 183 00:27:19.820 --> 00:27:23.559 jen freeman: to see multiple people, especially in this back to back way. 184 00:27:23.910 --> 00:27:26.559 jen freeman: It's like magic. It really is like magic. 185 00:27:26.560 --> 00:27:31.930 Sarah Santacroce: Exactly. Even if your chart doesn't get picked. It's like, Oh, wow! I have this one, too. So 186 00:27:31.930 --> 00:27:32.969 Sarah Santacroce: yeah, no wonder 187 00:27:32.970 --> 00:27:56.720 Sarah Santacroce: I'm doing this. And I like this marketing tactic. Or no wonder I don't like that one. So yeah, so much wisdom coming out of that. So I can't wait to. Yeah, to have you talk to us about open and or defined and undefined centers. But for people who can't make it to the workshop, please tell 188 00:27:56.980 --> 00:28:02.410 Sarah Santacroce: tell listeners where they can find you and your newsletter that you're going to be. 189 00:28:02.410 --> 00:28:31.209 jen freeman: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So my website's Jen Freemanco, JENF. REEM, a, n.co. And I offer one of the things is I call them the Decode, your design sessions. And I've actually created my own method includes human design, astrology, numerology, and something called the personality system because I really love Meta context. I love looking at the real big picture and then helping give people a strategy of how to, because to me how to live a happy life. 190 00:28:31.300 --> 00:28:47.649 jen freeman: It's like really loving, understanding your vehicle understanding like what who you are, what you're here to do. And so so. And I also do ongoing coaching with people based on this kind of stuff as well. And one thing I want to say just to really. 191 00:28:47.860 --> 00:29:01.239 jen freeman: I really hope from my heart to your heart. Whoever's listening as much as there's complexity, and there is. There is a simplicity here that if you, if you only heard this. Just understand, there's a way that you are 192 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:19.799 jen freeman: a radio station that's putting out, and there's a way that you are receiving. If you want to call it Yin and Yang. There's a fundamental dynamic going, and the more you can be curious about that, the more you're going to free yourself up from so much, so just even that alone could take you so far. 193 00:29:19.800 --> 00:29:35.750 Sarah Santacroce: What I'll never forget from our reading is is where you showed me. You know the push against and the resistance that creates. And yeah, that image keeps coming back. I'm like, don't push, don't push, it's not. It's not going to be easier. So just. 194 00:29:36.231 --> 00:29:42.970 jen freeman: I'm good. I'm so glad. And I really it's a great joy. This 195 00:29:43.110 --> 00:29:59.169 jen freeman: this whole thing Sarah and I are talking about, and we both share this as a value, I feel confident in it. We want to see a world that's happier and healthier, where people are more engaged. They're not stuck in their conditioning. They're bringing forward their unique gifts. They're able to. Really. 196 00:29:59.330 --> 00:30:10.749 jen freeman: it is going to be through business. It's gonna be through how we connect with each other. It's just, and that's part of both our passion. We want people to really know who they are and succeed and thrive everywhere in our lives. 197 00:30:11.570 --> 00:30:20.709 Sarah Santacroce: Beautiful. So yeah, please join us humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. And it's taking place on June 4.th 198 00:30:21.110 --> 00:30:29.710 Sarah Santacroce: Thanks so much for doing this little preview for our listeners here on the podcast and I can't wait to see you. Thanks, Jen. 199 00:30:29.850 --> 00:30:31.130 jen freeman: I look forward to it.  

In this heartfelt solo episode, Sarah Santacroce invites you into Conversations for Change—a series of meaningful gatherings designed to help us unlearn the hustle, reimagine business with more humanity, and gently recalibrate our own path. You'll hear about the fundraiser supporting the launch of her new book Business Like We're Human and how you can join these transformative conversations that blend reflection, connection, and action. If you're ready to do business in a way that feels aligned, spacious, and true to who you are, this invitation is for you. Each workshop explores one part of the book's journey: Wake Up: Let's shine a light on outdated systems and inherited beliefs around work and worth. Reimagine: We'll dream boldly about what a truly humane business might look like. Recalibrate: We'll ground those dreams into practical shifts—in mindset, systems, and relationships. Integrate: Finally, we'll reflect on how to sustain those shifts with grace and spaciousness. Support the launch here --   Speaker 0:  hello, friends. today, i'm coming with a bit of a special episode, a bit of a self serving episode. i hope throughout the months and years, i, always give enough value so that you feel like, yeah, you love listening to this show and, learn a lot from our conversations with, my guests. but today, i'm coming here and sharing about two offerings that are part of my life's work to guide us towards a more humane way to do marketing and business. you've probably heard me talk about this third book. i've been hinting at it for a long time now that i've been quietly working on. it's called business like we're human. and, yeah. this book, it's close to my heart. it's about business. yes. but really, it's about us. it's about remembering our own humanity in the hustle and about finding inner peace so that we can create outer change. in my first two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human, i wrote about being gentle and more humane towards our clients. and this third one, it turns the mirror gently towards ourselves. we're really in a moment of reckoning. so many of us are questioning the rules we were taught about business. maybe you too are tired of the constant striving, the 6 figure hype, the pressure to scale at all costs. i know that i am. and that's why this book follows a different rhythm, a rhythm that aligns more with nature than with spreadsheets. and the framework i've used in this book is inspired by the peace symbol, and the journey unfolds in four stages. the first one is called wake up. the second one is reimagine. the third one is recalibrate. and the final one is integrate. and i truly believe this book needs to be experienced, not just read. i have received a a few books in recent times, business books, where i just noticed how i don't have the mental energy to sit there and read the whole book by myself. and i also feel like what we're doing in the humane marketing community is so valuable to sit together and find solutions that work for each of us and not just, you know, feel like we have to apply exactly what we're being taught. so this is why i'm launching this book through a series of facilitated gatherings that i'm calling conversations for change. so they are not lectures. yes. i'm going to bring some ideas from the book. but then the idea is really to go into breakout rooms and and talk about these things, talk about the unlearning maybe that we have to do from the toxic business advice, and then reimagine together what this new way of doing business that fits into our lives rather than having to fit our lives around our business could look like. so they are conversations, meaningful conversations, hopefully, gentle spaces for reflection, insight, and connection. and i have run these workshops before as a beta inside the humane marketing circle, and, yeah, the experience was incredibly moving. i'm gonna read you two testimonials. monica said, the workshops with sarah made me feel that i can offer myself permission to step outside the box and run a business from a space of wild creativity and roaring courage. i feel that anything is possible. and stephanie shared, these workshops helped me see that a truly successful business is one that is not only empathic to clients, but also creates space for me to be human, take care of myself, and connect with the world around me. i've never felt more certain that these conversations matter. so here's the invitation from one human to another. please join us for the conversations for change. they're running from june 10 to july 1. and this fundraiser that i'm running right now that gives you access to these conversations for change as well as the ebook, business like we're human, and the audiobook version that i already recorded of business like we're human, is running right now. so from may 9 to june 9, you can help us together raise the funds in a crowdfunding activity. and if you go to humane.marketing/conversationsforchange, you will find out all the details. each workshop explores one part of the book's journey. so wake up, we are gonna shine a light on outdated systems and inherited beliefs around work and worth. in reimagine, we'll dream boldly about what a truly humane business might look like for each of us because it's different for each of us. in the third workshop, recalibrate will ground those dreams into practical shifts in mindset, systems, and relationships. and finally, in integrate, the fourth workshop will reflect on how to sustain those shifts with grace and spaciousness. each of these sessions is sixty minutes long. and if you can't attend live or all of them, i totally understand replays will be available in a private hub. so, again, the all the details are at humane.marketing/conversationsforchange. and what you're really doing is helping all of us put this book out there, create this message, and then having conversations around it. and if this message really resonates with you, there's one more way to support. you can become an affiliate and actually help spread the word. and by doing that, uh, you earn $10 for each person who signs up for the conversations. you find the link to sign up as an affiliate at the bottom of the fundraiser page. again, the link is humane.marketing/conversationsforchange. so i look forward to seeing you at least at one of these conversations. it's gonna be special, i feel. i told you i was gonna talk about two offerings. the second offering i wanted to share about is the marketing like we're human program. that's based on my framework of the seven p's of humane marketing. you're already familiar with the seven p's. if you're a regular on this podcast, i mention them all the time. all the conversations here are based on the seven p's of humane marketing. but in the program, we go deep into them and really take the time to define them for our business. and it all starts from who you are, your passion, and your person, as well as your personal power. like, what makes you uniquely you? and then we go into people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership. so it's really a blend of personal development and pragmatic marketing and business building. it's for entrepreneurs at any stage in business. we have beginning entrepreneurs who come on the market now and just know have this deep knowing that they want to do marketing differently than so many of the examples they see out there. but we also have people with twenty years of experience because they finally want to unlearn all the pushy tactics, and guru advice that i i include myself, we have been learning over the last twenty years and instead want to market from who they are and just bring more integrity and ethical, support into their business and life's work. there are many case studies and testimonials on the program page. so if this is of interest to you, please go have a look at those testimonials. there's videos from from participants because, yes, obviously, it's still marketing. right? and we have such, baggage around these marketing programs that whenever i speak to people, you know, there's still a bit of fear. well, sarah, how is this going to be different from all the programs that i've already attended? so, that's why i'm taking so much time to create these testimonials. so you can find them all at humane.marketing/program. we start on june 5 for another live cohort. the early bird, yes, it's over. it ended april 30. but if you book a call with me through the program page and mention the word podcast, either when we talk or in an email, i'd love to honor your fidelity as a as a listener with a hundred dollar discount. so just mention that word podcast or, you know, you don't have to say it like a robot. it will come up in the conversation. and, yeah, i'd be happy to give you a hundred dollar discount. thank you so much for letting me share about my life's work. i appreciate you as a listener to the humane marketing podcast. take care, and i hope to see you and meet you at the conversations for change.

In this episode of Humane Marketing podcast, I'm joined by Polly Hearsey for a deep and refreshing conversation about radically reinventing business. Together, we explore how heart-centered entrepreneurs can move beyond fear-based tactics, align with natural rhythms, simplify offerings, and build businesses rooted in service, integrity, and community. If you're ready to treat your business as a living, evolving ecosystem—and break free from outdated rules—you'll find inspiration and real-world guidance here. This is business reimagined for a more humane world. Here's what we discussed in this episode: Buyers are more skeptical and seek authenticity over hype. Clients sense the true intent behind messaging; fear- or scarcity-based offers don't resonate. Aligning business with natural and seasonal rhythms creates a more sustainable presence. Flexibility is key-evolve offerings in real time based on current needs. Simplifying offerings-less but deeper-better meets people's needs. Treat business as a living, evolving ecosystem rather than a machine to optimize. Root work in service and integrity instead of focusing solely on profit. Shift away from endless growth; redefine success through depth and impact. Build business around community, connection, and co-creation rather than competition. Practice courageous listening to ourselves, clients, and the world-and act on what we hear. And most importantly, break all the rules and question all the assumptions you have around business. Watch this episode on YouTube -- 1 00:00:01.610 --> 00:00:04.559 Sarah Santacroce: Hi, Polly, it's good to speak to you again. 2 00:00:04.560 --> 00:00:12.699 Polly Hearsey: Thanks. You know, I always enjoy coming to talk to you because it's just it's fun to suggest. Go where we go. It's it's all. 3 00:00:12.700 --> 00:00:13.170 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 4 00:00:13.170 --> 00:00:13.820 Polly Hearsey: Light. 5 00:00:14.100 --> 00:00:14.600 Polly Hearsey: Thank you. 6 00:00:14.600 --> 00:00:23.210 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, it's kind of like one of the things that I feel like. That's my zone of genius. And I know it's yours to. 7 00:00:23.330 --> 00:00:46.690 Sarah Santacroce: you know, reimagine, rethink differently. And so really, that's what I want to do today. And I was just telling you, I think we can do half of the episode or the beginning of the episode about today, right now and then look into the future. So so yeah, let's let's start there. You know, it's quite the time we live in. And there's 8 00:00:46.810 --> 00:00:54.670 Sarah Santacroce: there's probably I can sense the fear in entrepreneurship. And yeah, I'm just 9 00:00:55.170 --> 00:01:00.949 Sarah Santacroce: maybe start us off before we go into taking action, start us off with 10 00:01:01.150 --> 00:01:06.680 Sarah Santacroce: explaining what you sense energetically. What is going on. 11 00:01:08.320 --> 00:01:14.060 Polly Hearsey: I think that there's been a big shift in the buyer market 12 00:01:14.500 --> 00:01:22.949 Polly Hearsey: in terms of what they want and what they're expecting, and the way in which they've been burnt in the past. 13 00:01:24.600 --> 00:01:30.500 Polly Hearsey: And there's definitely an ability to read through the hype 14 00:01:30.730 --> 00:01:36.349 Polly Hearsey: right? And the promises. So there's a lot of skepticism, I would say, building. 15 00:01:37.123 --> 00:01:47.610 Polly Hearsey: So. And you see that when people put ads out say on Facebook or something, and you read the comments and the threads, it'll just be. Get the just people be tearing into them because it's not. 16 00:01:47.790 --> 00:01:48.180 Sarah Santacroce: It. 17 00:01:48.180 --> 00:01:48.870 Polly Hearsey: So I'm asking. 18 00:01:48.870 --> 00:01:50.240 Sarah Santacroce: Feel so fake. It's fake. 19 00:01:50.240 --> 00:02:00.419 Polly Hearsey: Feels fake and and the promises feel overhyped. You know, state, and particularly in the space that we're in. 20 00:02:00.690 --> 00:02:05.689 Polly Hearsey: We've got a lot of economic turmoil, and we've got a but 21 00:02:06.060 --> 00:02:11.710 Polly Hearsey: but even before the sort of like the very recent economic turmoil, what we had was 22 00:02:12.470 --> 00:02:18.240 Polly Hearsey: a lot of well established businesses, we're sliding. 23 00:02:18.810 --> 00:02:19.250 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 24 00:02:19.250 --> 00:02:23.800 Polly Hearsey: And they were keeping it under wraps. And I also noticed a lot of people who'd. 25 00:02:24.410 --> 00:02:34.189 Polly Hearsey: Yeah, maybe 6 years ago had been very present, and then they'd slid off my radar. And then all of a sudden, they've started advertising. That tells me that their business is slipping. 26 00:02:34.420 --> 00:02:35.010 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 27 00:02:35.010 --> 00:02:44.320 Polly Hearsey: And that's because the way in which they were approaching it through this sort of psychological, persuasion-based approach. 28 00:02:45.580 --> 00:02:52.540 Polly Hearsey: It's not working, because once you know that it's happening to you. It doesn't work anymore. So people becoming very wise. 29 00:02:52.710 --> 00:02:58.950 Polly Hearsey: And but I also think that people want something different now. They don't want the same old 30 00:02:59.310 --> 00:03:12.899 Polly Hearsey: heavy investments long term, because they don't feel that they have a grasp on where things are going to be in 3 months. So why would I invest in an 8 month, 10 month, 12 month program 31 00:03:13.390 --> 00:03:17.909 Polly Hearsey: to support myself in whatever area I needed 32 00:03:18.130 --> 00:03:27.189 Polly Hearsey: when I don't know where I'm going to be. Am I going to be the same person? Am I going to want to do the same sort of things? Because I think people can feel so much bubbling up within them 33 00:03:27.300 --> 00:03:32.310 Polly Hearsey: that they're not entirely sure how they're going to respond to it. 34 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:33.110 Sarah Santacroce: So. 35 00:03:33.110 --> 00:03:44.109 Polly Hearsey: Big investments don't make an awful lot of sense. And yet some of these very established businesses that's a lot of money to invest with them on something where they're not getting one to one support. 36 00:03:44.110 --> 00:03:46.150 Sarah Santacroce: Right? It's always group, giant group. 37 00:03:46.150 --> 00:04:01.209 Polly Hearsey: Giant groups. And it's like, Oh, the value is in the information. No, the value isn't in the information anymore. We have AI proliferating that can turn information into process, but without any nuanced understanding 38 00:04:01.690 --> 00:04:03.810 Polly Hearsey: of how to deliver it. 39 00:04:03.810 --> 00:04:04.420 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 40 00:04:04.420 --> 00:04:11.400 Polly Hearsey: So what people are now looking for is more human contact. And yet we've built business structures 41 00:04:11.600 --> 00:04:13.109 Polly Hearsey: that remove that. 42 00:04:13.310 --> 00:04:13.920 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 43 00:04:13.920 --> 00:04:23.200 Polly Hearsey: And so all the expectations about how you automate everything and how you run one to many, and all of that is oh. 44 00:04:23.340 --> 00:04:30.899 Polly Hearsey: you know I mean, education hasn't lost its value. But information has, I think. And so so it's changing expectations. So I think 45 00:04:31.070 --> 00:04:45.089 Polly Hearsey: that puts us in a position where we need to be really agile to respond, and creative as well. So we're not just going. Oh, God, I've got to try a little bit harder to make something that's always worked work because it's not going to. 46 00:04:45.090 --> 00:04:49.070 Sarah Santacroce: Right. You can't just push harder and think it's gonna. 47 00:04:49.190 --> 00:04:54.919 Polly Hearsey: You see that with the classic old, give me your email address and I'll give you something of value. 48 00:04:55.090 --> 00:04:57.479 Polly Hearsey: How hard is that to push right now. 49 00:04:57.480 --> 00:04:58.869 Sarah Santacroce: Right? It's yeah. 50 00:04:58.870 --> 00:05:17.000 Polly Hearsey: Do not want yet another, because I don't know about you. My inbox is unmanageable. I spent tail end of last year unsubscribing. I spent a whole day just going unsubscribe, unsubscribe, unsubscribe. Stop sending me so much stuff. I don't read it. I do not have the capacity to read it. 51 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:17.390 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 52 00:05:17.390 --> 00:05:18.890 Polly Hearsey: But people don't want that. 53 00:05:18.890 --> 00:05:19.420 Sarah Santacroce: No. 54 00:05:19.420 --> 00:05:28.300 Polly Hearsey: And there was an interesting thread on substack. I was reading yesterday where people were saying, what I want is the ability to buy a single article 55 00:05:28.520 --> 00:05:32.530 Polly Hearsey: stop making me subscribe, because there are so many writers here. 56 00:05:32.690 --> 00:05:36.970 Polly Hearsey: but I want to be able to subscribe to pay for one article, awesome and 57 00:05:36.970 --> 00:05:38.760 Polly Hearsey: interesting reflection of where we're at. 58 00:05:38.760 --> 00:05:58.989 Sarah Santacroce: That's kind of what I took away from your newsletter the other day where I was like, oh, I got to have you back on the podcast where you talked about bite. Sized. Right? Yeah. Like, people want small bits, and they want to yes experience. Your work before engaging in any length of program. 59 00:05:59.130 --> 00:06:26.720 Sarah Santacroce: And and yeah, like, I, just, I'm experimenting this year with instead of a 3 month program. I'm running the marketing like we're human in a 5 week program, and I already see the difference, like people who've gone through it in January. They tell me it was so much easier to decide, because it's 5 weeks, and I can. I can handle that like you said I don't know. 3 months, I'm you know, all over the place in 3 months, and so. 60 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:27.140 Polly Hearsey: Yeah. 61 00:06:27.140 --> 00:06:30.469 Sarah Santacroce: Weeks. Yes, just sound easier. And I think. 62 00:06:30.470 --> 00:06:37.489 Polly Hearsey: People wanted to know what they're going to do with that, you know, and 3 months down the line it feels like a very long time. 63 00:06:37.490 --> 00:06:37.900 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 64 00:06:37.900 --> 00:06:50.989 Polly Hearsey: Not, but it feels like a very long time, whereas 5 weeks it doesn't. And I, I ran a couple of 3 week programs this year, and that was much easier for people, although it wasn't easier for me. 65 00:06:51.210 --> 00:06:55.530 Polly Hearsey: actually, because I and I know how much I 66 00:06:55.750 --> 00:06:58.989 Polly Hearsey: want people to understand in order to be able to action it. 67 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:00.619 Sarah Santacroce: That's the thing right? 68 00:07:00.620 --> 00:07:04.469 Polly Hearsey: They had a little bit of a sort of like shockwave. 69 00:07:05.260 --> 00:07:21.509 Polly Hearsey: So I got so I just said to them at the end of it instead, I wasn't going to do a pitch at the end of it. I just said, Look, take your time, process it. Expect to go, you know. Come out of this high and come down through this processing, and then you come out the other side of it. Just be gentle with yourself. 70 00:07:21.510 --> 00:07:22.020 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 71 00:07:22.020 --> 00:07:28.049 Polly Hearsey: But I have, you know, for me it's like I I couldn't in all integrity 72 00:07:28.370 --> 00:07:32.240 Polly Hearsey: offer you something that didn't cover all of the bases. 73 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:32.930 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 74 00:07:32.930 --> 00:07:43.810 Polly Hearsey: Even on, you know, I've scaled it back to just one focus. But I still, you know, I need to give you the information, because if you don't have that, then you've got missing pieces of the puzzle, and you're not gonna do anything with it. So. 75 00:07:43.810 --> 00:07:44.240 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 76 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:54.380 Polly Hearsey: There there is for us when we're actually designing stuff. There is a bit of a balancing act to go on there, because we we know what we need to do in order to be in integrity with our own values. 77 00:07:54.750 --> 00:07:56.010 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, exactly. 78 00:07:56.010 --> 00:07:59.260 Polly Hearsey: Equally responding to that changing need of. 79 00:07:59.880 --> 00:08:06.060 Polly Hearsey: I need something a little more immediate. I need something very specific. No, I mean. 80 00:08:06.530 --> 00:08:07.360 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 81 00:08:07.490 --> 00:08:18.009 Sarah Santacroce: yeah, what I did also because of the integrity piece. I I well, I've always had that. But I just have a flat fee where people can come again. 82 00:08:18.170 --> 00:08:38.470 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, next round and and often. That's a very much appreciated gesture, because it doesn't mean Oh, you failed, and you didn't, you know, integrate it? But it just gives them more time. And that's often the thing that we don't have in these programs is like, Oh, 5 weeks so much content. 83 00:08:38.470 --> 00:08:55.560 Sarah Santacroce: And then you're like, Oh, exhausted after. So yeah, having this flat fee for past participants has really yeah helped people. I think, also just giving them permission, giving themselves permission. Yeah, I'm going to do this again. And this is this, is that deep. 84 00:08:55.560 --> 00:08:59.670 Polly Hearsey: Yeah. And it's okay. Because every time it's like, when you read a book. 85 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:20.329 Polly Hearsey: when you read it the 1st time you have, you have particular paragraphs that jump out at you, and then you'll read it again. You think I'm really waiting for that moment, and it doesn't come, but it comes somewhere else, because you're just integrating and processing something else and understanding it. And if I think about my own journey through business because it's what it was 11 years now since 86 00:09:20.846 --> 00:09:22.190 Polly Hearsey: I started my business. 87 00:09:22.490 --> 00:09:25.110 Polly Hearsey: I don't recognize the person I was back then. 88 00:09:25.750 --> 00:09:29.929 Polly Hearsey: but if I go back to what I was talking about. I was talking about the same things. 89 00:09:29.930 --> 00:09:30.820 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 90 00:09:30.820 --> 00:09:36.080 Polly Hearsey: But my understanding of what I was talking about was very different. 91 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:36.510 Sarah Santacroce: And. 92 00:09:36.510 --> 00:09:46.199 Polly Hearsey: And I knew that I had. In fact, I have a client who's worked with me over a number of years, say to me, and she'd had a break, and she came back and she said, the last program I ran, she said. 93 00:09:47.070 --> 00:09:50.520 Polly Hearsey: you've it's so much more coherent what you offer now. 94 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:59.299 Polly Hearsey: Yeah, I mean, it feels that way. But it takes time to get there. It's like slow version of slow food version of business, you know. 95 00:09:59.660 --> 00:10:00.380 Polly Hearsey: next time 96 00:10:00.380 --> 00:10:11.299 Polly Hearsey: to build the flavors and to understand the process, and and to really sort of settle yourself into it. And I think that's what we're missing. I think it's also a hint of where we're going. 97 00:10:12.090 --> 00:10:13.589 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, we'll get to that. 98 00:10:14.590 --> 00:10:16.540 Sarah Santacroce: But maybe 99 00:10:16.850 --> 00:10:25.899 Sarah Santacroce: so you're you're seeing these sub stack threads. And you know, listening to clients what they tell you, what do you feel like? Is is 100 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:37.190 Sarah Santacroce: well, their biggest fear right now. But also, what kind of mistakes are they making because they're in fear? So what kind of business mistakes are they making. 101 00:10:37.190 --> 00:10:44.929 Polly Hearsey: I think one of the biggest mistakes that people are making are trying to persist in being places and doing things that they aren't right for them. 102 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:45.960 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 103 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:51.359 Polly Hearsey: And I said at the end of last year that I think social media will really. 104 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:51.740 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 105 00:10:51.740 --> 00:10:53.939 Polly Hearsey: Have a massive shake up this year. 106 00:10:53.940 --> 00:10:54.770 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 107 00:10:55.410 --> 00:11:04.719 Polly Hearsey: And I do think that you know that sort of like the pressure to be on social media, to be on Tiktok, to be on Instagram to, you know, to have this visual presence. 108 00:11:05.410 --> 00:11:09.939 Polly Hearsey: People are realizing that it's not actually doing them any favors. 109 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:11.050 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 110 00:11:11.050 --> 00:11:19.060 Polly Hearsey: And where everybody's consciousness is at, it's about depth and precision. 111 00:11:20.004 --> 00:11:23.810 Polly Hearsey: The the wonderful Jess Lorimer says. 112 00:11:24.277 --> 00:11:31.489 Polly Hearsey: An inch wide a mile deep. That's and that's where we're at, not not a mile wide and an inch deep, which is where we've been. 113 00:11:31.490 --> 00:11:33.560 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, all the time. Right? 114 00:11:33.560 --> 00:11:34.690 Polly Hearsey: That depth. 115 00:11:35.010 --> 00:11:43.279 Polly Hearsey: So it's about having deeper conversations, about deeper connection, and that is so hard to achieve in sound bites. 116 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:44.210 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 117 00:11:44.420 --> 00:11:45.220 Polly Hearsey: So when I say. 118 00:11:45.220 --> 00:11:46.089 Sarah Santacroce: Think of bias. We're. 119 00:11:46.090 --> 00:11:47.720 Polly Hearsey: And it's big of the sound bites. 120 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:55.709 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, we're wanting bite, sized things that we're offering. And yet we want to go deep. 121 00:11:55.710 --> 00:12:04.489 Polly Hearsey: I think the thing is, it's about what is there within you that is going to stop someone in their tracks and make them think. 122 00:12:04.860 --> 00:12:05.650 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 123 00:12:05.650 --> 00:12:15.369 Polly Hearsey: What is something that's really going to land? I was saying something this week in a group that I'm in, I saying there is a difference between visibility and having your content received. 124 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:30.560 Polly Hearsey: You can be visible. You can be visible to millions of people. But that doesn't mean that content has achieved anything. And I think we have such a moral obligation to make sure that the content that we put out there actually has a meaning 125 00:12:30.830 --> 00:12:36.329 Polly Hearsey: and a value to somebody because it has a cost attached to it. 126 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:38.500 Polly Hearsey: It has a cost to our planet. 127 00:12:38.790 --> 00:12:39.560 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 128 00:12:39.560 --> 00:12:49.820 Polly Hearsey: And it's a permanent escalating cost, because it goes into data banks that have to be sustained with electricity and water and land. That 129 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:51.670 Polly Hearsey: so, you know. 130 00:12:52.590 --> 00:13:02.750 Polly Hearsey: for me, it's there's a huge amount of integrity about saying, not putting out this very shallow content just because it gets abuse. It's about depth. 131 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:09.610 Polly Hearsey: It's me that is the mistake that people are making, because they're still trying to use the old methods. 132 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:19.610 Polly Hearsey: So my conversation has always has been this year about, flip it, flip the script because you need to be thinking about. What can I do to create 133 00:13:20.040 --> 00:13:26.620 Polly Hearsey: the means for people to engage with me in a way that is actually meaningful for me and for my business. 134 00:13:26.620 --> 00:13:27.010 Sarah Santacroce: I'm. 135 00:13:27.010 --> 00:13:29.770 Polly Hearsey: Full for the people I support. 136 00:13:30.050 --> 00:13:39.709 Polly Hearsey: Yeah, that resonates in the business. Like, we're human book. I ask people to be assumption busters. 137 00:13:39.780 --> 00:14:05.429 Sarah Santacroce: Question all your assumptions that you have about business and social media and marketing, how it should be done, and then do it differently, like. I am so so tired of, you know, going on social media and looking what's out there, and everything is the same. It's like I was trying to break my brain about how to do this book launch, but do it differently. 138 00:14:05.430 --> 00:14:12.980 Sarah Santacroce: and not just follow the same copy and same structure that everybody else is doing. And so I think that's 139 00:14:13.010 --> 00:14:21.660 Sarah Santacroce: yeah. That's part of it. Like, how do we want to do this in a in a more human, engaging way, and not just be about. 140 00:14:22.010 --> 00:14:50.709 Sarah Santacroce: Well, let's just take this example. Not just be about a best selling author on Amazon, or, you know, getting a thousand reviews. What we're really doing is hustling for Bezos, who's taking all the benefit. And and we are just working like slaves to get those reviews. So like, question, all of these things that we have just bought as well. This is just how it is, and this is just how it works. 141 00:14:51.160 --> 00:14:55.430 Polly Hearsey: There is an assumption there, isn't it, that you don't have the power to change that. 142 00:14:55.430 --> 00:14:55.950 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 143 00:14:55.950 --> 00:15:05.900 Polly Hearsey: And that that's something I say all the time is like, don't underestimate your power. If you think about all of the new trends that happen. Someone started them somewhere. 144 00:15:06.355 --> 00:15:06.810 Sarah Santacroce: Yes. 145 00:15:06.810 --> 00:15:11.759 Polly Hearsey: So are you going to be a sheep, or are you going to be a leader? And that? And 146 00:15:11.890 --> 00:15:19.130 Polly Hearsey: when I talk about leadership, I know people sort of tend to go. It's not me. I'm not a leader because we have some really toxic 147 00:15:19.250 --> 00:15:20.250 Polly Hearsey: role models for. 148 00:15:20.250 --> 00:15:21.380 Sarah Santacroce: Leadership. 149 00:15:21.380 --> 00:15:24.390 Polly Hearsey: But there are different leaders coming. 150 00:15:24.390 --> 00:15:24.860 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 151 00:15:24.860 --> 00:15:28.660 Polly Hearsey: Quiet leaders, people who lead from the middle. And 152 00:15:28.980 --> 00:15:32.650 Polly Hearsey: you can have, you can create different ways of doing it. 153 00:15:33.556 --> 00:15:40.280 Polly Hearsey: And it doesn't have to be this sort of like standard standard approach. 154 00:15:40.390 --> 00:15:50.130 Polly Hearsey: And, in fact, the more subtle you are, the more creative you are, the more you're likely to be received because you're thinking, oh, hang on a second. 155 00:15:50.350 --> 00:15:55.519 Polly Hearsey: I didn't think I was being sold to like that. So I did in the program I did recently. 156 00:15:55.730 --> 00:16:03.689 Polly Hearsey: I set them all a task to produce a piece of content based on sort of understanding the the energetics of their business. 157 00:16:04.460 --> 00:16:08.829 Polly Hearsey: and they they produce the most extraordinary things. 158 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:16.519 Polly Hearsey: And I asked them to share it because I wanted them to see the difference in reaction. 159 00:16:16.690 --> 00:16:20.879 Polly Hearsey: So you might get less of a reaction. But it'll be a deeper reaction. 160 00:16:20.880 --> 00:16:21.310 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 161 00:16:21.310 --> 00:16:30.949 Polly Hearsey: And so they got instant responses from people going. This spoke to me so deeply, and I asked them afterwards, said, Did you feel like you were selling. 162 00:16:31.070 --> 00:16:34.680 Polly Hearsey: and they said no, didn't feel like saying, but you were 163 00:16:35.190 --> 00:16:39.319 Polly Hearsey: still putting it on the table for people and people weren't feeling like they were being sold to. 164 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:40.020 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 165 00:16:40.020 --> 00:16:46.110 Polly Hearsey: That's rebellious. That is the height of rebellion in a world that's all about. You've got to have conversions. 166 00:16:46.110 --> 00:16:50.020 Sarah Santacroce: Right? Yeah. So so do you feel like, that's 167 00:16:51.150 --> 00:16:57.769 Sarah Santacroce: right. Now, it feels like we're the outsiders. Still right? Do you think that's gonna Flip where. 168 00:16:57.770 --> 00:16:59.919 Polly Hearsey: I think it already has. 169 00:16:59.920 --> 00:17:02.010 Sarah Santacroce: It already has. Hmm. 170 00:17:02.010 --> 00:17:13.869 Polly Hearsey: But I don't think that some people are even aware I mean the last people to know that the change has happened to the people at the top. If you sort of mean, I think it has already changed, because 171 00:17:15.270 --> 00:17:29.110 Polly Hearsey: I mean, I just look at what people are talking about and just go. I've been saying that for 10 years. It's like slightly between gritted teeth. Which? But actually going? Well, if if everybody is now openly talking about that. 172 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:33.509 Polly Hearsey: Then then a change has already happened. 173 00:17:34.540 --> 00:17:35.489 Sarah Santacroce: But I still. 174 00:17:35.490 --> 00:17:38.280 Polly Hearsey: Don't think that people know how to respond to it. 175 00:17:38.280 --> 00:17:42.829 Sarah Santacroce: Okay, yeah. Because what I see is like, when you talk to people 176 00:17:43.180 --> 00:17:46.700 Sarah Santacroce: they are like, yes, agreeing, you know, nodding their heads. 177 00:17:46.890 --> 00:17:49.670 Sarah Santacroce: But then when you see what they're posting. 178 00:17:49.790 --> 00:17:58.500 Sarah Santacroce: they're still adhering to the old rules, maybe because they don't. They don't have the new role models. They don't. 179 00:17:58.500 --> 00:18:14.359 Polly Hearsey: Have the alternative. So that's what that's what you and I are doing. We're providing them with the alternative. So we have to be the walking role models. We have to walk the talk and do it differently. And and that means we also have to be the experimenters. We have to fail a lot. 180 00:18:14.360 --> 00:18:17.720 Sarah Santacroce: Yes. Talk to me about that. Yeah. 181 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:38.330 Polly Hearsey: And so that brings it. That's an interesting one, because it brings a degree of transparency about the fact that not all business efforts are successful. So this whole narrative that we've all come through in the last 4 years of this instant overnight success. Once I found out how to do XY. Or Z, because it was the missing piece. 182 00:18:38.330 --> 00:18:39.560 Sarah Santacroce: A magic pill. 183 00:18:39.560 --> 00:18:44.450 Polly Hearsey: The magic flipping wand and pill. Yes, it's that doesn't exist. 184 00:18:45.110 --> 00:18:49.029 Polly Hearsey: We we demonstrate that that doesn't exist. 185 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:52.969 Polly Hearsey: and that actually, the real magic comes from 186 00:18:54.130 --> 00:18:56.910 Polly Hearsey: giving yourself permission to be creative. 187 00:18:56.910 --> 00:18:57.585 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 188 00:18:58.260 --> 00:19:10.650 Polly Hearsey: So that that has been challenging sort of like. Oh, right, I have to have a signature program and a signature talk, and I have to have a lead in, and I have to have an automation, and I have to have a welcome. All of these pieces 189 00:19:10.930 --> 00:19:15.639 Polly Hearsey: coming back to being assumption Busters. Why the hell do you actually need them? 190 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:15.970 Sarah Santacroce: Nice. 191 00:19:15.970 --> 00:19:20.860 Polly Hearsey: Seriously. Why do you need them? Do you have to have that? You can have something that is paid? 192 00:19:21.190 --> 00:19:25.380 Polly Hearsey: And here's the interesting thing in terms of the buyer behaviours. 193 00:19:25.580 --> 00:19:32.680 Polly Hearsey: People are more likely to give you $5 $10 for something. 194 00:19:33.270 --> 00:19:37.379 Polly Hearsey: and then do something with it than they are to take a freebie. 195 00:19:37.620 --> 00:19:38.219 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm, 196 00:19:38.820 --> 00:19:41.449 Polly Hearsey: So why do you have to produce any free content. 197 00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:42.260 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm! 198 00:19:42.980 --> 00:20:07.109 Sarah Santacroce: That's interesting. I was just thinking about my workbook that goes together with the with the book, and in the 2 previous books I just had it as a free download, and it felt good until I, you know, started to realize. Well, I want to know who's working on these books, and like, you know, and so I was like, well, I'll just add it as a donation. 199 00:20:07.220 --> 00:20:12.380 Polly Hearsey: So that they can give. You know, however much they want, and. 200 00:20:12.670 --> 00:20:22.449 Sarah Santacroce: And I think that's when money feels good, if it's like, yes, I want to, you know, earn something for that. I've put a lot of effort and hours into it. 201 00:20:22.630 --> 00:20:34.440 Sarah Santacroce: But I understand your situation might be different, and you know, just kind of like putting it out there and explaining. I think a lot of what we're doing is explaining how things are. 202 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:38.810 Sarah Santacroce: so that there is that transparency because. 203 00:20:38.810 --> 00:20:39.190 Polly Hearsey: Yeah. 204 00:20:39.190 --> 00:20:41.150 Sarah Santacroce: People are. So 205 00:20:42.280 --> 00:21:00.709 Sarah Santacroce: you know, everything was so hidden and and opaque that yeah, it just needs that time now to make everything super clear. And yes, that starts with affiliate links. But it also, you know. We talked about AI in our community. It's like, well. 206 00:21:00.710 --> 00:21:17.480 Sarah Santacroce: say, when you're using AI and make that clear. So yeah, all these different things that we do to help people in that transition so that they can gain trust again because they lost all the trust in any kind of message. 207 00:21:18.020 --> 00:21:25.629 Polly Hearsey: Yeah. But I mean coming back to sort of like, your original point of opening this this bit was, you've got to work with the tools that you've got. 208 00:21:25.630 --> 00:21:26.000 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 209 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:31.049 Polly Hearsey: At your disposal right now, but it doesn't mean you have to work with them in the standard ways. 210 00:21:31.310 --> 00:21:31.730 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 211 00:21:31.730 --> 00:21:39.180 Polly Hearsey: So you can rethink those right now and think well, how can I do it? So you know some of the examples I gave in the Newsletter you referenced were. 212 00:21:39.600 --> 00:21:43.190 Polly Hearsey: why have a free substack? Why not just have a paid one? 213 00:21:43.540 --> 00:21:47.950 Polly Hearsey: You know you can use notes, or whatever to sort of like promote it. 214 00:21:48.060 --> 00:21:53.070 Polly Hearsey: You don't have to have a free one. You don't have to run one-to-one mentoring. 215 00:21:53.480 --> 00:22:11.460 Polly Hearsey: But bear in mind that the market doesn't want large groups. So how do you do that? How do you maximize that you can get really creative with the tools that you have and the technology that you have, but you can use it in a different way. So forget about the algorithms on Facebook 216 00:22:11.760 --> 00:22:24.439 Polly Hearsey: and do what feels good to you because it can guarantee that if you do what feels good to you, people will find it and engage with it, and then you'll actually be part of resetting the algorithm. Then, you know, in the short term. So 217 00:22:24.630 --> 00:22:29.929 Polly Hearsey: it it's think, stop stop thinking that you have to operate within the rules. 218 00:22:31.150 --> 00:22:40.199 Polly Hearsey: And my favorite, my favorite tool for business development is blank sheet of paper. What would you create if you didn't have any rules. 219 00:22:40.620 --> 00:22:44.659 Sarah Santacroce: What feels good, and then you might say, Oh, you know what. 220 00:22:45.810 --> 00:22:49.590 Polly Hearsey: That program was. And I did this myself this year. That program I was thinking of running. 221 00:22:49.890 --> 00:22:51.849 Polly Hearsey: I'm going to do it as pay what you want. 222 00:22:52.090 --> 00:22:52.770 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 223 00:22:52.770 --> 00:22:53.700 Polly Hearsey: Why not? 224 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:59.559 Sarah Santacroce: I mean, that's something you can do. Do not do that if you are dependent on the income. 225 00:22:59.870 --> 00:23:01.100 Sarah Santacroce: Right? Of course. 226 00:23:01.100 --> 00:23:02.940 Polly Hearsey: You've got the flexibility. 227 00:23:03.090 --> 00:23:08.499 Polly Hearsey: Why not see how it lands? See what people give, and people will give a whole spectrum. 228 00:23:09.210 --> 00:23:19.280 Polly Hearsey: You know, and it depends on whether or not they know you, whether or not they know the value of it. What their financial situation is, it makes it more accessible, and that honesty of accessibility 229 00:23:19.770 --> 00:23:23.759 Polly Hearsey: changes the relationship. So have your blank piece of paper. 230 00:23:23.890 --> 00:23:25.150 Polly Hearsey: Think what what can I do? 231 00:23:25.150 --> 00:23:45.379 Sarah Santacroce: I guess it's not easy, like we've been in entrepreneurship for a while, right? And we know that we are in charge. We make all the decisions in our business. But for new entrepreneurs I can. I can totally understand the overwhelm. It would be much easier to have, you know, a 7 step process on how this works. 232 00:23:45.380 --> 00:23:45.710 Polly Hearsey: I mean. 233 00:23:45.710 --> 00:23:47.460 Sarah Santacroce: That's not the time we're in. 234 00:23:47.660 --> 00:24:04.000 Polly Hearsey: No. And the thing is that there's there's 2 groups of people that I see at the moment. There's the new entrepreneurs who are actually basically in a frozen state, because they know that they don't want to proceed down the normal route, but they don't know what else to do. So they do dabble with it, and it burns them, you know. 235 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:04.899 Polly Hearsey: it really hurts. Yeah. 236 00:24:04.900 --> 00:24:10.099 Polly Hearsey: Then there's a group of people who've been through that, and they've got an established business, but 237 00:24:10.750 --> 00:24:12.990 Polly Hearsey: that has burnt them out completely. 238 00:24:12.990 --> 00:24:13.410 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 239 00:24:13.410 --> 00:24:17.300 Polly Hearsey: And they're at the point of hitting hitting the big red button to explode everything. 240 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:23.480 Polly Hearsey: So yeah, so if you're a new entrepreneur, it's about finding 241 00:24:23.910 --> 00:24:28.899 Polly Hearsey: people who inspire you, and that doesn't have to just be in the business world, you know, if 242 00:24:28.900 --> 00:24:29.490 Polly Hearsey: you know how to. 243 00:24:29.490 --> 00:24:39.129 Polly Hearsey: How do I start my business. How is someone approaching that I've got? A dear friend who has such a gentle approach to her? Instagram? 244 00:24:39.470 --> 00:24:45.450 Polly Hearsey: It's just. It's just so gentle that you wouldn't necessarily know that it was selling. 245 00:24:45.830 --> 00:24:50.090 Polly Hearsey: you know, because she just does it in her own way. 246 00:24:50.770 --> 00:24:52.540 Polly Hearsey: And so I think that's that's 247 00:24:53.740 --> 00:24:56.170 Polly Hearsey: that's the thing is that finding yourself 248 00:24:56.370 --> 00:25:01.550 Polly Hearsey: people who really sort of like just make you. That's a beautiful way to share something. 249 00:25:01.980 --> 00:25:19.189 Polly Hearsey: There's a photographer. I'm so glad that her stuff comes. I like it every day, so that makes sure that I see it on my feed every day. She's just on an Anti AI cruise and photography crusade. Sorry. And so she shares a photo that she's taken every single day, and it's just like. 250 00:25:19.760 --> 00:25:26.370 Polly Hearsey: Oh, my God! She never mentions that you can go and buy this photos from her or anything. It's just. It's so gentle and it's so inspiring 251 00:25:27.540 --> 00:25:28.630 Polly Hearsey: that 252 00:25:29.030 --> 00:25:36.700 Polly Hearsey: it's about the energy that you feel. You think I wanna I want to hold that energy when I'm out there in my business. How would I do that. 253 00:25:36.930 --> 00:25:38.240 Sarah Santacroce: Just. 254 00:25:38.540 --> 00:25:40.170 Polly Hearsey: Throw out the rule book. 255 00:25:40.330 --> 00:25:52.920 Polly Hearsey: throw out all of the reference points of all the people who are telling you exactly how to do it, because that is a very toxic narrative to have in your head really, really toxic. It will keep you stuck. 256 00:25:53.250 --> 00:25:53.960 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm! 257 00:25:55.030 --> 00:26:07.340 Sarah Santacroce: I want to switch to the future now, and maybe hear from you 1st how you envision your work and life in 5 years can't go. 258 00:26:07.340 --> 00:26:07.670 Polly Hearsey: Okay. 259 00:26:07.670 --> 00:26:11.580 Sarah Santacroce: That right now is like, Oh, 5 years already feels really far. 260 00:26:11.580 --> 00:26:14.220 Sarah Santacroce: No, I'm not entirely sure I could get to 5. 261 00:26:15.130 --> 00:26:16.457 Polly Hearsey: To be honest. 262 00:26:17.370 --> 00:26:27.039 Polly Hearsey: okay, I mean, where I see business going is this complete transition? Because we're in a space where we simply cannot continue 263 00:26:27.460 --> 00:26:40.000 Polly Hearsey: down the path that we're on. It is not sustainable from a human point of view, it is not sustainable from an environmental point of view, and it's not even sustainable from the economic point of view. But that is not necessarily being understood. 264 00:26:40.350 --> 00:26:41.450 Polly Hearsey: So 265 00:26:41.800 --> 00:26:55.900 Polly Hearsey: I don't know if you've seen it. But the Uk government has just actually started talking about, how are they going to brighten clouds to reflect more sun? And how are they going to geoengineer the weather that they've actually provided grants for this research. You just go. 266 00:26:57.180 --> 00:27:07.749 Polly Hearsey: This is classic economic model. You just knew it was going to come. People are going to be trying to find. How can they make money out of solving the crisis? 267 00:27:07.750 --> 00:27:08.660 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 268 00:27:08.660 --> 00:27:10.010 Polly Hearsey: Here's the problem 269 00:27:10.740 --> 00:27:31.439 Polly Hearsey: that they're not looking at, or the solution that they're not looking at, and that is that the problems are solved by doing it in a completely different way. We cannot continue to use the economic model that we've got. So in terms of climate change, if we just actually poured all of our resources into restoring the soil, we would make a massive difference in a couple of years. 270 00:27:31.610 --> 00:27:33.210 Polly Hearsey: Huge difference. 271 00:27:33.590 --> 00:27:39.950 Polly Hearsey: And it's not about planting forests and forests and forests. It's about looking at the soil, because that's where most of the carbon goes. 272 00:27:40.550 --> 00:27:48.899 Polly Hearsey: So we have to. So to me the future of business is about returning it, returning the power to the people. 273 00:27:50.100 --> 00:27:57.809 Polly Hearsey: and that starts with believing in yourself and believing in the fact that you have a valid and valuable role in the world 274 00:27:58.100 --> 00:28:03.979 Polly Hearsey: which has been so severely eroded by the societies that we've set up. 275 00:28:05.120 --> 00:28:11.510 Polly Hearsey: So where do I think business is going? I think business is going into a much more diverse 276 00:28:12.750 --> 00:28:21.839 Polly Hearsey: creative process. When I say creative, I don't just mean everyone's going to go into the creative arts. I mean that it's about, who am I as a person? And what do I want to offer the world? 277 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:28.549 Polly Hearsey: So it's going to become more diverse. It's going to become more creative? And ultimately 278 00:28:30.150 --> 00:28:37.099 Polly Hearsey: is this 5? Is it 10? Is it 20 years down the line? They business is actually going to be part, become part of the ecosystem. 279 00:28:37.610 --> 00:28:41.469 Polly Hearsey: Instead of being in an extractive mode, the economic 280 00:28:41.950 --> 00:28:47.990 Polly Hearsey: norms will have been reshaped. So that actually, we're in a collaborative mode. 281 00:28:49.740 --> 00:29:00.070 Polly Hearsey: That's complex, because there's a whole web of energies that are, you know, they've got existing pathways that is very hard to change, but that, to me is 282 00:29:01.290 --> 00:29:05.470 Polly Hearsey: the higher sort of philosophical philosophical philosopher. 283 00:29:05.650 --> 00:29:10.680 Polly Hearsey: Philosophical direction of travel. 284 00:29:10.940 --> 00:29:11.800 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 285 00:29:11.800 --> 00:29:18.640 Polly Hearsey: Because it's about restoring agency. It's about restoring individual power and restructuring society. 286 00:29:19.650 --> 00:29:21.460 Polly Hearsey: So that's not a 5 year thing. 287 00:29:21.750 --> 00:29:28.589 Polly Hearsey: but in 5 years time I think the expectations of businesses will be completely different. 288 00:29:29.030 --> 00:29:29.850 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 289 00:29:30.750 --> 00:29:31.520 Polly Hearsey: How about you? 290 00:29:31.520 --> 00:29:32.616 Sarah Santacroce: I like that vision. 291 00:29:33.521 --> 00:29:38.240 Sarah Santacroce: I just recently finished reading a book called Stellar, where 292 00:29:38.570 --> 00:29:41.419 Sarah Santacroce: the vision is that we have 293 00:29:41.600 --> 00:29:44.910 Sarah Santacroce: free energy that comes from the sun and the wind. 294 00:29:46.010 --> 00:29:54.810 Sarah Santacroce: and that then changes everything, because once we have free energy that is not extractive, but is regenerative. 295 00:29:55.700 --> 00:29:59.619 Sarah Santacroce: Well, the humans, in a way, it's kind of like you can just relax 296 00:29:59.910 --> 00:30:08.420 Sarah Santacroce: because there is not that need anymore to constantly produce. And, you know, create 297 00:30:08.990 --> 00:30:23.699 Sarah Santacroce: money to pay energy which then creates more crap. And you know, it's like this whole cycle. And so, yeah, I think I think it starts with with, like, you say, a complete systems change. 298 00:30:24.510 --> 00:30:36.330 Sarah Santacroce: I know already what we're already seeing is people don't want to work in in big businesses anymore, where it's just about, you know, climbing the ladder, and 299 00:30:36.430 --> 00:30:53.540 Sarah Santacroce: of course yes, there will. It'll be, I think, for a while there will be 2 worlds, 2 narratives. But eventually yeah, that that will change. And I think, actually like you, I think the power comes from the people. 300 00:30:53.650 --> 00:31:08.590 Sarah Santacroce: And so it's going to be these new leaders with innovative ideas. And yes, technology will help. But it will be with good intentions that we're using these technologies that are available. 301 00:31:08.850 --> 00:31:16.169 Sarah Santacroce: And I think the one the countries, if you think, from a country orientation? I think it's the small countries. 302 00:31:16.320 --> 00:31:21.460 Sarah Santacroce: probably from the global South that will be able to implement this the fastest. 303 00:31:21.750 --> 00:31:22.080 Polly Hearsey: Yeah. 304 00:31:22.080 --> 00:31:26.600 Sarah Santacroce: Because there's not that level of bureaucracy that we have in other countries. 305 00:31:26.600 --> 00:31:43.800 Polly Hearsey: Yeah. And I think that is a really interesting point, because we have these big institutions, you know, the bigger, the more established the economies of a particular country, the more we have these institutions, and so the power is controlled through the institutions. 306 00:31:43.800 --> 00:31:44.150 Sarah Santacroce: Exactly. 307 00:31:44.150 --> 00:31:56.420 Polly Hearsey: What's going to happen when we have more and more people coming into entrepreneurship, more and more people sort of choosing different pathways for their business for their careers, which not necessarily about owning a business 308 00:31:56.700 --> 00:32:01.120 Polly Hearsey: is, you diversify the the ground. 309 00:32:01.340 --> 00:32:08.020 Polly Hearsey: You change people's behavior in terms of how they engage with the businesses that they need in order to live. 310 00:32:08.380 --> 00:32:13.260 Polly Hearsey: and then, all of a sudden, there is nothing underneath those institutions. 311 00:32:13.890 --> 00:32:16.730 Polly Hearsey: and which means that governments don't have the power 312 00:32:17.420 --> 00:32:22.169 Polly Hearsey: to direct things anymore. So it's a very sudden collapse. 313 00:32:22.770 --> 00:32:28.960 Polly Hearsey: But it takes a long time coming, and it takes a lot of belief. So you know, going back to Martha Beck's pyramid in the pool 314 00:32:29.310 --> 00:32:33.019 Polly Hearsey: idea of, you know the changes created from the ground up. 315 00:32:33.660 --> 00:32:38.980 Polly Hearsey: We have to get across the base and work our way up slowly. 316 00:32:39.230 --> 00:33:01.219 Polly Hearsey: So for you and me because we we have to navigate. So you know, probably the conversations we were having with people, and what people were ready to hear 10 years ago, 5 years ago. That's changed. People are ready to hear something different now. So we have to keep advancing the conversation because it moves the the change up a little bit, because already, you know. 317 00:33:01.330 --> 00:33:06.859 Polly Hearsey: I see this all the time. It's like the the ground level where I might have started being, you know 318 00:33:07.340 --> 00:33:09.100 Polly Hearsey: 8 years ago, or whatever. 319 00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:15.739 Polly Hearsey: There's plenty of people there now saying exactly what I was saying back then, so I need to advance the conversation. 320 00:33:15.740 --> 00:33:22.630 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, yeah, that's that's really good. And it reminds me also, when I shortened the the program. 321 00:33:22.770 --> 00:33:34.549 Sarah Santacroce: i 1 of the points I explained in my newsletter, I said. I can with all integrity do that because I feel like I'm picking people up at an advanced, more advanced level. 322 00:33:34.550 --> 00:33:35.150 Polly Hearsey: Yeah. 323 00:33:35.150 --> 00:33:46.970 Sarah Santacroce: Like when I started in 2019, I had to 1st explain, well, what is this? Why are we doing this? And now people are like, sign me up. Yeah, I want to do humane marketing. 324 00:33:46.970 --> 00:33:47.959 Polly Hearsey: The assumptions have already. 325 00:33:48.470 --> 00:33:49.080 Polly Hearsey: Is it. 326 00:33:49.080 --> 00:33:50.020 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, exactly. 327 00:33:50.020 --> 00:34:00.930 Polly Hearsey: People have done the work which they hadn't done. So this is one of the reasons that this year I've been focusing a lot on what I call states of being and understanding those states of being of your audience. 328 00:34:00.930 --> 00:34:01.470 Sarah Santacroce: Because. 329 00:34:01.470 --> 00:34:12.089 Polly Hearsey: There are some who are still need to have it explained, and there are some who are in the process of getting ready, and there are a whole lot lot more people who are ready to do the work 330 00:34:12.090 --> 00:34:12.480 Polly Hearsey: if you talk 331 00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:18.019 Polly Hearsey: the right language to them. So you have to understand where they're at. You also have to understand what the role of your business is. 332 00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:28.780 Polly Hearsey: So because there are educator businesses who have a really important role to play in coming back to. I was saying to you before we started recording, but ecosystems of change. 333 00:34:28.969 --> 00:34:36.889 Polly Hearsey: you have to have people who are educators because it's like. It's asking people to open up and to do that assumption busting. 334 00:34:37.219 --> 00:34:41.320 Polly Hearsey: But you have to have the people who inspire different ways, and you and I fall into that category. 335 00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:43.419 Polly Hearsey: But we also have to have the people who 336 00:34:43.670 --> 00:34:47.609 Polly Hearsey: draw people together, and the people who focus on the actual mechanics of. 337 00:34:47.610 --> 00:34:48.010 Sarah Santacroce: Create. 338 00:34:48.010 --> 00:35:04.489 Polly Hearsey: The new. So we need all of these things, and everybody's business has a different role to play in that cycle. So we need to understand that. But you and I, we fall into that inspiration category. We we do show people how to do it. 339 00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:11.349 Polly Hearsey: But really, our focus is on saying, you want to go. Are you ready to go? Let's go because 340 00:35:11.750 --> 00:35:14.719 Polly Hearsey: you have the answers, and I can show you how to access them. 341 00:35:14.720 --> 00:35:15.180 Sarah Santacroce: That's kind. 342 00:35:15.180 --> 00:35:20.290 Polly Hearsey: What we do. So it's it's the conversation has changed. 343 00:35:20.290 --> 00:35:21.609 Polly Hearsey: Hmm, yeah. 344 00:35:21.610 --> 00:35:24.859 Polly Hearsey: I spent years thinking I am screaming into the void. 345 00:35:25.260 --> 00:35:37.459 Sarah Santacroce: Yes, yeah, in 2,018 that that was my or you know already before. But it's like when I put the 1st book out. It's like crickets, you know. Nobody was. 346 00:35:37.460 --> 00:35:39.870 Polly Hearsey: The collective consciousness was not ready to receive. 347 00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:41.010 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 348 00:35:41.010 --> 00:35:47.379 Polly Hearsey: But the simple act. Here's the thing that I think people must remember the fact that you put that out there 349 00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:49.170 Polly Hearsey: changed 350 00:35:49.680 --> 00:36:06.240 Polly Hearsey: the playing field. It doesn't matter that there were crickets. You change the playing field, so you made it more possible for that conversation to happen, and the words that you put out there. Then I bet they're being reflected back to you now the things that you see other people saying you're going. Oh, hang on a second. I said that. 351 00:36:06.410 --> 00:36:07.929 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. And that's good, you know. 352 00:36:08.181 --> 00:36:09.690 Polly Hearsey: That's what we do it for. 353 00:36:09.690 --> 00:36:11.700 Sarah Santacroce: That's that's what we're here for. Yeah. 354 00:36:11.780 --> 00:36:18.980 Polly Hearsey: So. So we have to remember that even if we get crickets, there's a long term thing. And I say this a lot. 355 00:36:19.240 --> 00:36:25.650 Polly Hearsey: We have been trained to think that there is a direct correlation between the actions that we take and the responses that we get. So 356 00:36:26.060 --> 00:36:28.730 Polly Hearsey: you know, I I put this out, and I've got a bit of hair. 357 00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:33.440 Polly Hearsey: and I put this post out. I get a sale. 358 00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:35.140 Sarah Santacroce: I get sales. Yeah. 359 00:36:35.140 --> 00:36:37.835 Polly Hearsey: Doesn't work like that. And I was 360 00:36:38.500 --> 00:36:51.149 Polly Hearsey: an exercise, I say to people to put put something that you you genuinely believe about, and you believe in and put it out there, and you might get crickets. But then just open your awareness. 360, 361 00:36:51.500 --> 00:37:00.129 Polly Hearsey: and see where the response comes from. Because there you are. You're assuming there's a direct correlation between what I'm saying and the person that I'm talking to. 362 00:37:00.750 --> 00:37:08.009 Polly Hearsey: But actually, what you're doing is putting an energy out into the world. And then, if you're aware of it, some behind you, you're going to get a response. 363 00:37:08.630 --> 00:37:09.000 Sarah Santacroce: So, yeah. 364 00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:14.680 Polly Hearsey: So stop thinking. That's the other thing that we stop thinking about this direct causation. 365 00:37:15.469 --> 00:37:22.280 Polly Hearsey: It isn't a direct causation, it is. It is about the energy we put out, and then the energy that we receive. 366 00:37:23.010 --> 00:37:31.509 Sarah Santacroce: And so the problem with that is that we're being taught well, if you put something out there and nobody responds, then. 367 00:37:31.510 --> 00:37:32.000 Polly Hearsey: Failed. 368 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:48.830 Sarah Santacroce: It's failed, and, you know, move on to the next thing. And meanwhile there's all this, you know, movement going on underneath the surface that you're not seeing. And so you know, people ask next year, what about your program? You're not doing that anymore. So. 369 00:37:48.830 --> 00:37:55.252 Polly Hearsey: So, and there there's if you agrees. The the 370 00:37:56.350 --> 00:37:58.200 Polly Hearsey: An analogy I use 371 00:37:58.520 --> 00:38:04.899 Polly Hearsey: is that if you if you look particularly spring now, if you look at this, there's a riot of growth going on. 372 00:38:05.260 --> 00:38:11.909 Polly Hearsey: Where does that growth start? It starts in the soil. Can you see it? No. 373 00:38:11.910 --> 00:38:12.630 Sarah Santacroce: No. 374 00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:14.010 Polly Hearsey: It's happening. 375 00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:22.450 Polly Hearsey: So we have. So there's a lot of trust. So and you and I have been through that. We've been through this sort of thing, feeling like we're talking 376 00:38:22.650 --> 00:38:29.639 Polly Hearsey: to nothing, you know, we're not getting a response. But actually, we've just been fertilizing the ground. 377 00:38:30.290 --> 00:38:30.940 Sarah Santacroce: No. 378 00:38:31.195 --> 00:38:33.490 Polly Hearsey: But we have to keep on doing that because. 379 00:38:33.490 --> 00:38:34.420 Sarah Santacroce: Keep on doing that. 380 00:38:34.420 --> 00:38:43.040 Polly Hearsey: Our part, you know, there's a lot of people who will then come in and work that. But we for us, it's about setting the expectations. 381 00:38:43.040 --> 00:38:43.560 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 382 00:38:43.560 --> 00:38:49.709 Polly Hearsey: What does it actually mean? Because about probably about 4 years ago, I noticed this big shift 383 00:38:50.420 --> 00:39:04.969 Polly Hearsey: in the way that some of the really big businesses, you know, the multi 7 figure businesses were talking and the language that they were using. And then I looked at what they were doing, and they were doing exactly the same thing, but they shifted their language. 384 00:39:04.970 --> 00:39:05.390 Sarah Santacroce: And. 385 00:39:05.390 --> 00:39:19.930 Polly Hearsey: It's more than that. It's not about just shifting your language. It's about shifting your expectations. It's about upholding your values. It's about listening to yourself in a different way, and giving yourself a different set of permissions to do things. 386 00:39:20.570 --> 00:39:21.740 Polly Hearsey: So he's. 387 00:39:21.740 --> 00:39:29.169 Sarah Santacroce: And that's what you said at the beginning. It's like people can smell that a mile away, right when it's just lipstick on a pig. 388 00:39:29.450 --> 00:39:39.520 Polly Hearsey: And yeah, and your business. It's what happens behind the scenes in your business and beyond the public gaze. That is as important as what you put out there publicly. 389 00:39:40.175 --> 00:39:40.830 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 390 00:39:40.830 --> 00:39:45.649 Polly Hearsey: There can be an absolute, you know, businesses that are car crash behind the scenes 391 00:39:46.620 --> 00:39:58.600 Polly Hearsey: that it helps no one. So you do the work on yourself, on how you hold your business, and how you conduct your business. You do that in order to build something that is resilient. 392 00:39:58.730 --> 00:40:05.230 Polly Hearsey: and that would be my. The one thing I would say to people is that if you want to have a business in the future. 393 00:40:05.530 --> 00:40:08.610 Polly Hearsey: you better then well, focus on your resilience. 394 00:40:08.610 --> 00:40:09.080 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm, okay. 395 00:40:09.080 --> 00:40:17.290 Polly Hearsey: I don't mean your economic resilience, I mean your energetic, your values-based resilience. Now. 396 00:40:17.290 --> 00:40:18.060 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 397 00:40:18.060 --> 00:40:18.540 Polly Hearsey: Cause it. 398 00:40:18.540 --> 00:40:22.309 Sarah Santacroce: I was just gonna ask you, kind of as a closing question, like. 399 00:40:22.420 --> 00:40:29.779 Sarah Santacroce: what kind of questions do you think leaders, entrepreneurs should ask themselves. 400 00:40:29.950 --> 00:40:34.648 Sarah Santacroce: either themselves or or about their business, just like what are the. 401 00:40:35.040 --> 00:40:41.589 Polly Hearsey: The number. One thing that I come, I tell people to do, and I and you cannot do it too many times. 402 00:40:42.100 --> 00:40:49.839 Polly Hearsey: You can do it every month if you want to, every week, if you want to, is, ask yourself what are my values, and how am I upholding them? 403 00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:50.510 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 404 00:40:50.510 --> 00:40:59.699 Polly Hearsey: And that means looking at the fine print of your terms and conditions as much as it means. How am I showing up. 405 00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:07.169 Polly Hearsey: Where is the integrity in that? Where is the integrity with my values? 406 00:41:07.740 --> 00:41:09.790 Polly Hearsey: Because your values come from within. 407 00:41:10.820 --> 00:41:16.449 Polly Hearsey: and the more that you are focused on your values, the more you are challenging and busting assumptions. 408 00:41:16.770 --> 00:41:23.830 Polly Hearsey: and the more you are opening up the landscape for your business to thrive in the future. 409 00:41:24.250 --> 00:41:25.060 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm! 410 00:41:25.420 --> 00:41:26.470 Sarah Santacroce: Beautiful. 411 00:41:26.950 --> 00:41:30.390 Sarah Santacroce: Well, I think we have a lot of hope for. 412 00:41:30.390 --> 00:41:30.860 Polly Hearsey: And do we do. 413 00:41:31.180 --> 00:41:38.011 Sarah Santacroce: Business of the future. I do. You do so. We'll just keep showing up. 414 00:41:38.500 --> 00:41:41.360 Polly Hearsey: I say, business has caused a lot of the problems. 415 00:41:41.510 --> 00:41:43.550 Polly Hearsey: It can also be the solution. 416 00:41:43.550 --> 00:41:46.469 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, yeah, I really believe that it's. 417 00:41:46.470 --> 00:41:46.950 Polly Hearsey: Yeah. 418 00:41:46.950 --> 00:41:52.739 Sarah Santacroce: It's not the institutions, it's not the governments. It's the humans behind the businesses. Right? 419 00:41:52.740 --> 00:41:54.450 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. Yep, yeah. 420 00:41:54.450 --> 00:41:56.510 Polly Hearsey: And that's going to be the thing that changes everything. 421 00:41:56.510 --> 00:41:57.450 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 422 00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:07.350 Sarah Santacroce: thank you, Polly, as always wonderful. Please do share where people can find out more about you, and sign up to your newsletter, etcetera. 423 00:42:07.350 --> 00:42:14.259 Polly Hearsey: Yeah, you can head over to my website, which is just polyhecy.co.uk, and and follow the breadcrumbs from there. 424 00:42:15.560 --> 00:42:19.259 Sarah Santacroce: Wonderful. Yeah. And let's let's do it again, sometime. 425 00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:20.250 Polly Hearsey: I'd love to. 426 00:42:20.756 --> 00:42:21.770 Sarah Santacroce: Thank you. 427 00:42:21.770 --> 00:42:22.370 Polly Hearsey: Thank you. 428 00:42:22.580 --> 00:42:23.240 Sarah Santacroce: Bye.  

In this episode of Humane Marketing podcast, I'm joined by Rachel Allen for a deep dive into The Science of Buying. We explore how neuroscience and psychology quietly shape our buying decisions—and how understanding this can lead to more humane, effective sales. From Rachel's “magic equation” for building trust, to knowing when your message says just enough, this conversation is packed with insights for entrepreneurs who want to sell with empathy, not manipulation. Whether you're writing sales copy, nurturing relationships, or rethinking your entire approach, this episode will inspire a more connected and compassionate way to grow your business. Here's what we covered in this episode: Some surprising ways neuroscience and psychology influence our buying decisions—often before we're even aware of it. Rachel's ‘magic equation' for sales—and how it helps build trust and connection. The subtle power of great sales copy and messaging to spark interest before someone consciously realizes they want to buy. How to know when you've said enough—or maybe too much—in a sales message. Why, in a world driven by data and demographics, empathy and psychology are actually the stronger tools for real connection. The full ecosystem of a humane sales process—and how things like sales pages, nurture emails, and gentle follow-ups all weave together.   Watch this episode on YouTube Join us for the upcoming Collab Workshop on May 7th where we open our community, the Humane Marketing Circle to the public, for a small donation. --   Speaker 0:  hi, rachel. it's good to have you back, returning guest to the humane marketing podcast. welcome. Speaker 1:  thank you. thank you. i'm so excited to be back. i always love, uh, repeat podcasts in general, but especially talking with you. Speaker 0:  yeah. thank you. it's it's really good when you get to know one another. right. like, kind of kind of on a deeper level. i think the conversations are are different. yeah. Speaker 1:  yeah. everybody gets to, like, drop their marketing face and just have a a human to human conversation. Speaker 0:  exactly. yeah. so we decided to do another collab workshop. uh, you've been in the community before and you're i'm excited to have you back. and this time, we're gonna talk about the science of buying. right? so from the buyer's perspective, uh, more so from the seller's perspective, but understanding what's going on in the buyer's head so that we can then, you know, cater to that and then not in a manipulative way, of course, but just like in an empathy kind of way. it's like, oh, okay. i know what's going on in their heads so that i can write the sales page, the emails. so that's kind of like what we're gonna be talking about. so you have looked at this, uh, more deeply and also kind of like the neuroscience and psychology, uh, behind this idea of, well, what's going on in the buyer's head. um, obviously, there's all these tactics out there that are based on neuroscience. i'm pretty sure that's not what you're gonna tell us to do, but, um, yeah, i i'd love to hear your thoughts on all of that. Speaker 1:  yeah. well, i you know, you're correct. i don't have seven steps to, you know, manipulate people using their brains because i think that's based on such a false understanding of how humans actually work. and this may sound like a slight digression, but just to give you the understanding of where i'm coming from psychologically with this, a lot of those tactics are based on a school of psychology and understanding of the human, uh, mind called behaviorism. so if you ever thought about, like, bf skinner and pavlov, that's behaviorism. right? it's like, oh, we push the button and that makes the thing happen and then we get the outcome. that works on a small scale with humans in limited conditional circumstances. but what the opposing school of that, which is called humanism, has found is that humans are driven by their will. we each have our free will. we decide things, and that's how we recreate things, and we bring, um, a lot of chaos actually to the sales process because we're human. and you can never just set up the internet atm where it's like, well, i put in input a and i get out output b because there's a human involved and you never know what's gonna happen. Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. i like that. is it actually called humanism? that's that's a term for it. uh, that makes so much sense. yes. so so yeah. what are some of these strategies or or things that you have learned and that you feel like, you know, that feels good rather than, yeah, we're just abusing, uh, neuroscience and using it in in our favor? Speaker 1:  right. yeah. it's i've never been a fan of, uh, lab rat tactics. you know? well, it's, oh, let's, like, poke them and see what happens. that just doesn't feel good to me, and it's also not really effective. so, um, the main things that i remind people when i'm teaching this are that you don't have to be a mind reader to understand what someone's going through in a sales process because you're a person too. we all kind of go through the same phases, which is i have a problem. maybe i realize that. maybe i don't realize it. maybe i don't even know what the problem is, but i'm like, uh, like, just i'm in discomfort or, like, something's not working. i need to get somewhere else than where i am now. then we tend to go through a period of exploration. right? what do i actually want? do i know? i don't know. maybe i could find out. i'll try this thing. i'll try that thing. and then finally, we find something where we're like, okay. i'm pretty sure that's gonna be the thing or it's at least worth a try. should i do it? and then we go through this period of having to convince ourselves. mhmm. and that's where the opportunity is with sales pages and, um, lesser nurture campaigns. those come a little bit before. but people usually focus on that, like, oh, do i buy it or do i not area when they come to sales pages and the whole conversation is a huge part of it. Speaker 0:  i like that. the conversation is a huge part of it. so, essentially, what you're saying is, like, the sales page should feel like a conversation addressing these thoughts that go through the buyer's head. right? uh, that's that's that's good. um, so so you talk about this magic equation, uh, for sales. uh, maybe, uh, i know we're gonna go more deeply into it in the workshop, but maybe you could just kind of give us a sneak preview of of what that is. what's the magic equation for sales? Speaker 1:  oh, i was so excited when i finally was able to articulate this. so for a sale to happen, you have to get the right thing in front of the right person at the right time and in the right way. and if any one of those factors is off, the sale doesn't happen. Speaker 0:  and i saw your linkedin post on that, and i was like, yes. that's it. exactly. yeah. go ahead. Speaker 1:  why, um, well, that's why people get so i think they take so much, uh, responsibility on themselves with sales, and they try to control these factors that they really can't control because, like, you can't control when someone's going to encounter your thing. you can't control the way in which they encounter it. you can make the best thing you can, and you can understand whoever your ideal person is. like, you've got the most control over those two factors, but you have no control over the other two. and so people get so, like, wrapped up in this idea of, oh, i'm bad at marketing or, oh, i'm bad at sales because i can't control the flow of time. and when you say it like that, it's like, well, of course, that's a bit silly. but so much marketing advice is predicated on, like, well, no, you should just, like, control these things. how, how are you supposed to do that? Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. it's so good. and it reminds me of, um, something i talk about in the selling, like we're human book. i, uh, i think i make the point of, uh, the, the, the idea that more sales calls does not equal more sales necessarily. because if your, like, intake form, for example, is not clear or your marketing is not good, then you can talk to tons of people. but if they're not at the right point in time, like the point you're making, well, then you're basically just i guess you're telling yourself i'm busy. i'm selling. you know? but then you're gonna be disappointed because you're not making the sales because people are just not at that readiness point to to actually buy. um, i feel there's a lot of pressure to, you know, do all these sales calls and then and then obviously they become pushy because you feel like, oh my god, i'm so exhausted after 10 sales calls and nobody buys. and then you try to, you know, get more and more pushy. uh, but but yeah. it's the opposite of of humane selling for sure. Speaker 1:  yeah. that equation. right? that's not humane to you as the person who's doing selling either. and, like, i really love this metaphor of the conversation because if there's a conversation where one person is just monologuing at you, like, what do you naturally physically do? you know, when that guy in the bar comes up to you, you're like, um. but and that's what happens with marketing. but if you can turn this around and it becomes a conversation, you can create situations in which you don't have to to encounter people at, like, their right moment because they already know you. and so when the moment's right, they come and find you. they lean in towards you, and you don't have to try and stress out about being everywhere all the time because, you know, they know how to get to you. Speaker 0:  mhmm. yeah. yeah. it it reminds me of another post i just saw, uh, on linkedin about, you know, the right now, things are kinda tough with the economy the way it is and talk about recession. and so people get, you know, they they have the scarcity mindset and everybody feels like, well, i should be selling more. but right now, it's probably not the time to sell more, but it is the time to build the trust for future sales and keep being visible. and so, yeah, these conversations to build those in and to into let's talk a little bit about email marketing as well, because that's also part of of the nurturing. right? so so how can we bring more of these conversations into, yes, the sales copy, but also the emails, for example? Speaker 1:  yeah. well, i love i love how you've laid these phases out. right? because we'll see people, and you and i have both been around business and not long enough to see how that this will happen, is that the people who are showing up right now are the ones that when things do turn, they're going to be absolutely inundated with business. and then everybody else is like, oh, wait. i gotta get my emails going. so this is a really good time to get nurture campaigns and other conversations like that going. Speaker 0:  right. Speaker 1:  and to answer your question about, you know, how we incorporate that, i think people have this idea of what a nurture campaign is that's based um, in the mid aughts. like, it's very 02/2008 to very 02/2009. it's like, it's seven emails. and the first one is like, oh my god. you're here. and the second one is like, did you download the thing yet? and then you work up to a sale. right? it's so boring. i hate it so much. i'm seeing a thousand of them. they all are, like, ai generated now. so i invite people to reframe what a nurture campaign is is just it's creating instances for someone to know you over and over again. it's kind of like making it to where you run into each other at the coffee shop every morning, and then you're like, oh, yeah. i know her. so it can be whatever you want it to be. so for instance, in my other business that i do with solve a pet triple diamond, we actually have a repulsion campaign, an anti nurture campaign where we write five emails to our unideal clients. and it's funny, and there's the haiku, and we're like, absolutely not. we even have a song in it. and that's showing who we are instead of being like, we're triple diamond and here are our values. it's like, hey, we wrote a funny haiku about how much we hate elon. you wanna join? that shows you who we are. Speaker 0:  yeah. i talk about the worldview all the time. like, show your worldview, show what your stand what you stand for. and that's a great example. people wanna stay away for from politics. but frankly, right now, like, please, you know, it's no longer the time for business as usual. so, uh, yeah, address politics because clearly, you're you're, yeah, you're you're gonna resonate with the people who who stand for the same things. right? so yeah. we just actually had the the last workshop was about email marketing and and, yeah, she she she basically said the same thing, like or or we had this discussion also, like, what's with the term nurturing anyway? like, people actually said, well, i don't feel nurtured or this is not what nurturing is. right? so, yeah, just kind of understanding that people don't sign up to an email list to feel like to get nurtured. you know, we should we usually sure, like, see for nurturing someone somewhere else. but, um, it's just good to yeah. think about, well, how do people feel when they sign up to something? and how would you feel, uh, when you sign up to to an email list as well and and just apply the same thing? Speaker 1:  and how, like, how do you want them to feel? like, we with our particular campaign, we want them to feel amused and seen and, like, somebody is, like, taking a stand. with other future campaigns, you might want someone to feel, uh, educated. that's another really popular one. you need to, like, bring them through a journey of learning something. so it doesn't have to be this, like, extremely transparent build up to a sale of, like, okay. i'm gonna give you three little, like, gifts, and then you're gonna wanna work with me. like, no. it's thinking about, like, what kind of relationship do you want? what kind of party are we throwing here? how do you want them to feel? Speaker 0:  yeah. and all of that is is part of the trust building. right? Speaker 1:  yeah. that's Speaker 0:  that's what we're doing. another thing you talk about is is data and demographics and why psychology, uh, or, um, what are they called? psychographics are much more important than just, you know, the, yeah, the demographics of your ideal client. so talk to us a little bit about that. Speaker 1:  oh, this is one of my favorite soapboxes. so when people started teaching the concept of a client avatar, they took that from traditional mass marketing and then took, like, two little tiny facets of it and taught those and ignored the rest of it. so people think that what you need to learn about them is like, okay. well, your audience is women and they're between the ages of 35 and 50. uh, they are married and college educated and they like cats. that's not an avatar. that's an imaginary friend, and that doesn't tell you anything about the person. so those are their demographics. their psychographics are how they feel about things and why they feel that way. because you can take people who have extremely similar demographic profiles who have completely different psychographics. and if you try to market to them in the same way, they're probably both going to be turned off because you're just not going to really speak to what either one of them cares about. Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. it's it's such a huge difference. and then in my marketing, like, we're human program, people are always surprised when i come back with, you know, the the p p of people where we go into the ideal client. a lot of them say, oh, i've already worked on that. and i'm like, yeah, but you haven't worked on it like this. yeah. yeah. we have this. and that's why people are also kind of scared of defining their niche because they feel like, oh, i have to just kind of like have a niche. and, and, you know, usually it's demographic based. it's like, i have to only work with women between this and this age. no, you don't. the minute you bring in your worldview or the psychology of your ideal client, then it opens up. it's like it's based on resonance. because if you put out your worldview into your marketing, then it will only resonate with the, with this ideal client. doesn't matter what gender they are, what age, what race doesn't none of that matters. right? Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah. Speaker 0:  it's it's it's such an important difference. and i i really hope, like, the new kind of marketing people are that's what they're teaching. i don't know. you're more involved still and and and and you're saying that there there's still people out there teaching demographics? Speaker 1:  yeah. it's find your niche. it's you want to be the something for this tiny little subset of people. but that's created this situation in which people are getting into, like, crazy tiny niches because they wanna be different, and that just doesn't do anything for you. Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. yeah. what about, um, you know, kind of like if we if we go back to the signs of buying. so from the the buyer's perspective, what other things like, if we put ourselves into the head of the buyer, what are the things maybe also if we compare it to ten years ago, how do you think the buyers, um, consciousness and intellect and, you know, the decision making has changed compared to ten years ago maybe. Speaker 1:  so i think that humans are humans, and they're always like, decision making in and of itself, the process is still gonna be the same. you know, we go through this period of, like, there's something wrong. i wanna fix it. what do i do? how do i convince myself i've made a good decision? how do i feel about this? all of that. but i think sales cycles in general are taking longer right now because people are extremely tired. there is so much coming at them all the time. there's no off ever for most people unless they are creating it for themselves. and there's, you know, a pervasive sense of just pessimism and fear and uncertainty. and so i think that means our job as sellers and marketers is to acknowledge that and be honest about it and not try to just be like, yeah. but if you buy my ninety day course, everything will be fine because that's just not true. but you can also create the sense of, like, you know what? i get this. you're scared. and also, we can move over here and we can we can fix this one thing. we can't fix the world, but i can fix this one problem you have. Speaker 0:  yeah. i really like that. so so there's transparency, but there's still also hope and and and being very honest to say, hey, yes. i can promise you, you know, 10 new clients after going through this program. but what i do know that it will fix is this specific thing. yeah. i agree with that because i think i think, yeah, we can't just pretend, you know, it's not uncertain right now, and we don't know where where it's going. we have to treat our clients as smart conscious consumers or or buyers. and and so i think that's super, super important to come over with transparency, but at the same time, you know, knowledgeable and and also, yeah, confident in our offering. so it's kind of like this blend of, uh, or yeah. of of both things. Speaker 1:  yeah. and i think i love how you phrase that, the knowledgeable and confident in the offering. and i think that's so important because what also happens during these times is people, unfortunately, will sometimes jump on a disaster as a marketing trend, and then they use it as this, like, things are so bad. oh my god. we gotta fix it right now. i know things are terrible. and that doesn't help anyone. all that does is add more chaos and fear into the atmosphere. and it's manipulative and gross, you know, to try and profit off of the general fear that is going around right now. it doesn't last. and that's you get a lot of churn that way, but you do not get long term sales. and, also, you just kinda look like a jerk. Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. uh, and i like the last thing you just said is, like, it will give you you will sell fast, uh, for those who are like, oh, yeah. i'm really scared. okay. i'm gonna buy this thing, and it'll fix all my problems. but then, you know, two months later, they'll one, they won't do the work, um, because they don't have the confidence in themselves. and then two, either they'll if it's a long term, i don't know, a membership or something like that, well, they'll probably check out again or, uh, or you'll you won't get them the results. and then that's that's never good either to have a client who who doesn't get the results. right? so, yeah, it's, uh, it you know, selling is is always a bit of a tricky thing, but i think especially in in in in a downturn economy, it's even it's it's even more tricky. and i think also the the thing you said that people are tired. so what does that mean? like, i was just thinking if people are tired and we come with our, you know, long sales page, long emails, uh, you think we need to adjust our copy a little bit, make it shorter? like, is is that something you would do? Speaker 1:  uh, it depends on the person and the offer. so the thing that i'm finding most effective in terms of tactics or, actually, let me rephrase that. the the key factor that i'm seeing in sales right now is what people's friends say. so if you can create a situation in which they're gonna go to the voxer chat or their whatsapp chat or whatever and be like, okay. rachel allen, how do we feel? and they're like, oh, yeah. she's solid. that's what you want, and that's how people are buying right now. so if you create that kind of situation, um, that's what you want. in terms of length of sales pages and, like, how you engage with people, it depends on your audience. um, some people are really into video right now, especially short form video because they're acclimated to tiktok, and that just works really well for their brain. other people are, like, going you'll see this, like, they're going to substack. right? and so they want these, like, long things. so i think it comes back to knowing your audience. but in general, the sort of equation that i give people for writing copy is the heavier the cognitive or financial lift, the longer the copy should be. Speaker 0:  oh, that's interesting. yeah. so so i think in the workshop, you'll also talk about the faqs at the end. right? so, actually, yeah, the bigger the investment, the more i'm gonna want to know upfront. okay. what are what is all the fine print? what am i getting? like yeah. at least i always know that for my audience is, like, they they they like that there's a lot of info on that page. they might not read it all, but, uh, you know, it's there. and so, yeah, the faq is is definitely an important piece. and and, of course, if it's only, like, a very small amount, then, yeah, maybe shorter is is better. but, again, you need to know your audience and and and understand what's going on in their heads. Speaker 1:  right. yeah. it's an exercise in empathy. it's thinking, like, what do i want? what would i want if i were signing up for this? and if you're working with faqs especially, the types of questions you choose can really show your audience that you care about them and you understand them. because if you're answering questions they don't have, like, who cares? it might make feel like, oh, this isn't for me. but if you can answer those questions that they have themselves or, like, they get to the bottom of the sales page and they're like, oh, i would do this, but if you can address that, you've got the sale. Speaker 0:  right. yeah. yeah. it's kinda like the you know, what you were saying, the the email series to, uh, a non ideal client. it's almost like if you formulate the faqs in a way that addresses also, you know, this is not for you if right then it kind of reconfirms that. oh, yeah. no. uh, this is actually for me when they get to the bottom of the page. Speaker 1:  yeah. absolutely. and if you can frame that in such a way where you're talking about the way they think about who they don't wanna be, you know, then they'll be like, oh, okay. well, like, i'm definitely not that kind of person, so this is for me. and they feel a sense of belonging, and they feel cared for and seen. Speaker 0:  yeah. i wanna come back to the idea that you shared before that it matters what other people or or friends think of us. and and that and this is, yeah, really, really important. it taps into collaboration with other, uh, with other people, what you're doing with apache, what we're doing right here. right? it's kind of like this putting my hand in the fire and saying, yes. uh, you know, i trust rachel. she's aligned with our values. i wanna bring her into the community. i want you to buy her stuff. um, so this kind of partnership, uh, is really, really key. and it it i still don't see it often enough. like, uh, p of partnership is the seventh p of humane marketing. but people feel like, especially beginning entrepreneurs, they have a hard time because they they kind of lack a bit of confidence. they don't have a, you know, a really built out offering yet. um, so is there anything that you would suggest where they can start, you know, creating more partnerships with with others? Speaker 1:  i think, uh, it's just being as generous as you can, um, you know, while still, of course, taking care of yourself. but the best partnerships i've ever had, they even though i've never met these people, you know, they they live on the internet, uh, for me. but it feels like i'll be stepping into their kitchen and being like, oh, let me tell you that sales page for you or like, oh, and they'll do that for me. right? like, pepsi will be like, oh, you know that logo? let's change it a little bit. so it's these these micro, um, i guess, interactions or encounters where people are showing their values, they're demonstrating them, and they're being really generous. and there's no, like, endgame. right? it's not that i'm secretly, you know, editing people's copy to build up to, like, oh, but then they will hire me. i don't care. it's fun for me. it's easy. it takes me absolutely no time whatsoever, and it really helps somebody. and, eventually, maybe we'll work together. or what's much more likely and what tends to happen is they send their friends to me, and that's great too. Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. exactly. not have that agenda of thinking, oh, she's gonna hire me. no. but who knows? Speaker 1:  who knows? right. yeah. that up there and then something, like, something good comes back more often than not. Speaker 0:  yeah. amazing. yeah. great. well, yeah, like i said, i i look forward to having you back in the in the community for this workshop. do you wanna give us a little sneak preview of what we're gonna build on this content, of course, but any anything you'd like to share, what we're gonna be talking about during that workshop? Speaker 1:  yeah. well, we'll be talking about the psychology of buying and selling, and then we'll talk we'll go into some specifics of how that can look in different settings. so for instance, in a sales page, in a nurture campaign. and by the end, you'll have this matrix like view of seeing how the psychology of buying and selling can play into any copy and content that you do. so when you read something, you'll be like, that's what they're doing or that's what i need to do. and i love teaching like that because now it's not like, oh, here's my sales page template. go and use it until everybody gets bored. it's no. you understand buying. you understand selling, and you can use those principles to form whatever you need to form that's a fit for you, your offer, and your audience. Speaker 0:  yeah. i can't wait. and then if it's anything like the pitching workshop we did, it's very hands on. right? like, we we really get to practice this, which is, um, yeah, it's always the best way to learn. so can't wait to have you in the community. so if anybody wants to join us for this workshop, it's on may 2. and, uh, you can find out all about it at humane.marketing/workshop. we open the community to the public for a small donation, and rachel and i would love to see you there. please also do share rachel where people can find you find out you have a i don't know. it might be too late. can't remember when this, uh, podcast goes out, but you have other workshops also available on your site that, um, i'd love for you to mention. Speaker 1:  yeah. uh, i'm very easy to find on the internet. so my website is boltfromthebluecopywriting.com. you can email me at hello@boltfromthebluecopywriting.com, and i will email you back. um, and on my website, like sarah said, you can find different workshops. i teach one free workshop a month, uh, in april, depending on where this when this airs. it's going to be the internet's favorite bio workshop, how to write a bio that doesn't make you sound boring, braggy, or like you have bad boundaries. and i believe i'm teaching the pitching workshop that i taught in the community, uh, in may, like, not for the community. and then after that, we've got positioning and something else. but, yeah, it's all on the website. Speaker 0:  cool. yeah. highly recommend them. and, uh, yeah, please join us for the the workshop in the community on may 2. wonderful. thanks so much, uh, rachel. i always appreciate talking to you. always learn something new. maybe, uh, last question. where do you do you see any new developments? like, given that all this ai is coming in, like, what's gonna make us stand out from the human, uh, side of things? Speaker 1:  yeah. well, as i've been saying on the internet for, i don't know, forever, human is the only move left. moments like this, whether it's ai, whether it's, you know, the seo update internet apocalypses that come upon us, they're filters and opportunities. and who rises up is whoever is able to be most human and most themselves and most in relationship with the people around them, and that's just how it is. the tools, the tools, the tool. it's gonna stop being shiny after a while. yes. it has absolutely changed the way we work, but it's still us humans, people doing the work together. and so the more you can show up as you as human, the better you're gonna be. Speaker 0:  yeah. it's all it's all on relationships. that's, you know, that's that's how we sell as well. it's really like, have we spent the time building the relationship even if we never see them, but they often feel like they know us because they've been reading our emails or substacks or linkedin posts. so it all matters. yeah. amazing. thanks so much. Speaker 1:  yeah. see you soon.

In this episode, I'm joined by leadership guide Lisa Foulger for a gentle yet powerful conversation about what animals can teach us about leadership and business. We explore the wisdom in slowing down, the power of presence, and how reconnecting with nature can shift the way we lead, work, and live. From her life in Costa Rica to her insights on the Inner Development Goals, Lisa offers a refreshing, nature-inspired perspective that invites entrepreneurs to embrace a more sustainable, mindful, and humane way of doing business. In this episode, we discussed… What sparked Lisa's interest in discovering leadership lessons from animals. Why the sloth became her animal of focus—and what makes it such a powerful and unexpected teacher for leadership and business. The cultural obsession with hustling—and how adopting a sloth-like approach can lead to more humane, sustainable business practices. Lisa's life in Costa Rica, and whether Costa Ricans relate to nature differently than people in more industrialized parts of the world. The Western tendency to separate nature from work—and how we can gently bring nature back into our leadership and business practices. The role of mindfulness and slowing down in building a business world that's more sustainable, kind, and connected. How Costa Rica is pioneering the application of the Inner Development Goals (IDGs) at a national level—and what that looks like in daily life and leadership. A simple, nature-inspired step that listeners can take today to bring more wisdom and presence into how they lead. Watch this episode on YouTube ---   Sarah:  hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. Sarah1:  welcome back, friends. i am back from two amazing weeks in egypt. if you're on my email list, you hopefully enjoyed the pictures i sent. it truly was amazing. and just in the last few days, a team of scientists from italy made a new discovery of gigantic structures underneath the giza plateau. they're using some kind of radar technology, and they found pillars as tall as the eiffel tower. imagine that. i'm just so excited about all the new discoveries we'll be making about our long lost ancestors and civilizations. to me, it it really is this passion about, yeah, what makes us human and how this all started. and and maybe it's at the border of humans and, you know, some other kind of beings. but, anyway, if we ever meet at a cafe, well, i can talk about this for hours. but back to today's conversation, which fits under the partnership. this time, we're partnering with animals, and i'm talking to community member lisa folger. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven ps of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and don't know what i'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven piece of marketing at humane.marketing/ 1 page. that's the letter that's the number one and the letters page. it comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. so a few words about lisa. a dynamic leadership coach and best selling author with over thirty five years of corporate and entrepreneurial learning and success, including twenty five pioneering years at hp, lisa folger is an international coaching federation professional certified coach and is certified in scaling up positive intelligence and among others. lisa inspires leaders to scale their mindsets, their teams, and their businesses to make a positive impact in the world. passionate about cultivating healthy mindsets, driving transformative impact, and advancing global sustainability, she leaves a lasting positive mark on people and the planet. a proud mother of three awe inspiring daughters, lisa thrives in vibrant cost costa rica where she continues to inspire others through her leadership and vision. so in this episode, we discussed what sparked lisa's interest in discovering leadership lessons from animals, why the sloth became her animal of focus, and what makes it such a powerful and unexpected teacher for leadership and business, the cultural obsession with hustling and how adopting a sloth like approach can lead to more humane, sustainable business practices. lisa's life in costa rica and whether costa ricans relate to nature differently than people in more industrialized parts of the world. the western tendency to separate nature from work and how we can gently bring nature back into our leadership and business practices, the role of mind mindfulness, how costa rica is pioneering the application of the inner development goals, idgs, at a national level, and what that looks like in daily life and leadership, and then a simple nature inspired step that listeners can take today to bring more wisdom and presence into how they lead. so without further ado, let's listen to this conversation between lisa folger and myself. Sarah2:  hey, lisa. it's good to hang out with you. Lisa:  hi, sarah. glad to be here. Sarah2:  yeah. good to have you. first time on the humane marketing podcast. so excited. we talk regularly through the humane marketing community and you've been in the program, so we know each other quite well. i feel so it's always the conversations always go deeper, when we know each other. right. so looking forward to talk about animals and leadership sessions, not sessions. and what i wanna say, lessons that we can learn from from animals. so, yeah. you hosted a session last year during our humane marketing circle expo with colleagues, rory and aslam, around this topic of what can we learn from animals for our leadership. so first, i'm curious to know how did you come up with this topic? like, why this topic? what fascinated you about this topic? Lisa:  yes. certainly. i mean, the theme was, you know, kinda learning from nature is what we challenge ourselves. what would we bring to bear? because each of us lives in a different country. we all spend a lot of time outside in nature, and we were i think the conversation initially started when aslam was looking out her window in a london tower and saw the beautiful array of swans doing all sorts of amazing positions, looking so calm, looking so conscious, looking so just reflective and contemplative. and, you know, it really caught her attention, and she's been fascinated. so she's always telling us stories about the swans. but then at one point, she said, you know what? i looked it up and really underneath the surface, the swans are pedaling furiously. i mean, it's chaotic. it's crazy. it's phrenic. and we said, wow. yet from the outside, it's so calm, so, you know, beautifully, patient. and said, what else? i mean, could we learn because we resonate with that. you know, so many times, we are frenetically moving and doing and, scurrying to be ready. and yet when it takes place, we're actually present. and just being there is all that's really needed. and so it just spurred a level of curiosity and interest, to investigate. so we each said, okay. pick a favorite animal. let's talk about what are some of the leadership lessons we can learn. and i, living in costa rica and having sloths as neighbors thought, you know, why not? like, that's like the opposite of the scurry is the very slow and methodical and patient and present sloth. and so that's what i chose. and then rory chose the elephant because it had such female leadership qualities that we all admired and all three of us being female leaders were like, wow. you know, that's fabulous. let's tap into that. so it was a really curious exploration, and it's continued. like, the year since that has gone on, we have had various conversations and in-depth contemplations on what will we do with that next. and so we're working right now on what our next expo theme will be. and it's all around being. i think we will choose some animal influences as well. one of the ones that i am playing with right now is the monkey because monkeys are also part of my neighborhood collection of beautiful nature. and i love the curiosity element of monkeys. and so one of the elements that i'm playing with. but it was, you know, a way to find a theme that we're all passionate about and, you know, have it be a bit playful and engaging. and so in the workshop, you know, we had our three animals, but we had many other people join and share their favorite animals and what lessons that they had learned from them. so i think there's a lot that we can pick up from our surroundings and our environment and nature as you well know. Sarah2:  yeah. yeah. it's so beautiful. and and it reminded me of the i i just hosted a a podcast, with the title is slow business more humane, with my friend, andy mort. and this he calls himself a slow business coach or a slow coach. and and so it just reminded me of you and the sloths. and and so it's so controversial, right, to bring slowness into business. and so it it takes well, it takes courage to say, well, actually, i do want to, you know, make it slower. and and so, yeah, i'm just curious what kind of things you shared around the sloths and and what qualities you appreciate from the sloth. Lisa:  yeah. and i'm glad you mentioned andy because i got to that part in your book, and i love the reference and the connection to the sloth, and going slower, going deeper. that's been a big, big journey of mine, especially in the last couple years. i left the corporate world eight years ago, after a twenty five year run. and now working with more small and medium businesses, i am finding that being conscious and really building the mental resilience to handle the ups and downs that are going on around us is such an important leadership skill. so from the sloth perspective, you know, they're very, very intentional. like, they usually come down from the tree once a month. Sarah2:  wow. it's amazing. once a month. Lisa:  they have to plan really, really well, and they're very slow in their pace, and they're very conscientious because they can't move very fast. they have to be very careful as they plan their moves, to avoid being, you know, attacked by predators or any other danger in the system. they have to find their food very strategically. so they're very, curious, very methodical, very patient, and they're very reflective. so all those qualities make for, handling our crazy chaotic world in a more kind, gentle, patient, and contemplative way, i would say. one of the you know, i wrote a chapter in the book, leading with self awareness last year. and one of the stories that i highlighted is that, you know, often we open doors. the chapter is called, you know, opening doors to discover me. but often we open doors and we have no idea what we're entering into. and that ability to be patient, to be present, to be calm, to be curious is such a beautiful gift to discover what opportunities lie ahead. and so i'm a big believer, in creating the spaciousness to allow that perspective to show up, and it's not so easy. like, i'm a recovering corporate a level, you know, executive for many, many, many years. it took some real life changes and choices to put that first and foremost in my perspective. Sarah2:  yeah. yeah. and it's such a big topic, right, of the business like we're human book. it's like the and i only remember one line, from your, case study when you went through the marketing like we're human program. you you said the depth was always there, but it took this program or the pausing to discover it or rediscover it. right? and so that's what that's what we do when we take when we create the spaciousness. and we, yeah, we are sloths like. we probably another thing is, like, from the outside looking in, the sloth looks like, well, it's just a lazy couch potato. but, actually, there's probably yeah. like you said, a lot of planning, a lot of deep thinking, a lot of strategizing that that goes on, that we don't see from the outside looking in. Lisa:  absolutely. and the slot has partnerships, with all sorts of other animals that support their ecosystem. and so they don't even though they seem very solo animals, they actually weave a set of strategic partnerships that help them thrive. and sometimes that's not present. like, you can't see that Sarah2:  mhmm. nobody Lisa:  else. but, yeah, there's a lot of depth to that choice. and for me, another big turning point was having a significant accident. so i had a surfing accident. or it kinda took me off the road map for three months and, you know, healing journey of one year. that process of having to slow down and start over and rebuild was, you know, tremendously insightful. it was hard. it was super, super difficult and painful and, you know, all of the, challenges that come along with injury and recovery. yet it was super profound for me to rediscover what was most valuable to me. so to reconnect with my values, it was the time when i was rebuilding my business after a big transition, and a super important gift that, you know, i can clearly see. during the process, it was, you know, challenging for sure. and now looking back, i think it was a blessing in disguise. Sarah2:  mhmm. yeah. yeah. it's just unfortunate that often our body kind of needs to give us this yeah. Lisa:  wake up call? Sarah2:  wake up call. yeah. indeed. if we don't hear it ourselves. another thing comes to mind, and you mentioned that you're living in costa rica. from the outside looking in, we have this idea of costa rica being, yeah, you know, a different culture, a kind of more outgoing culture, probably a culture that is not as money and profit and productivity driven as maybe, you know, some of our western cultures. is that the case? and has when you moved to costa rica, has something changed already just in that move for you? Lisa:  for sure. for sure. so it's a quite a different culture from the united states that i moved from seventeen years ago. so mhmm. it's, well indoctrinated in me, the pura vida lifestyle, you know, living a pure life. for sure, the culture is slower. it's more family oriented. it's, you know, be first and then do second, very opposite of the united states and the life that i had lived before i came to costa rica. you know, there's certainly challenges. the infrastructure, the bureaucracy, i mean, process and operational efficiency is not a strength in costa rica. it's a beautiful small country and the nature is spectacular and it's ever present wherever you are in the country. so yeah, that slowing down to adapt to a very different culture in a different system was, you know, a jolt to my, nervous system for sure. and, you know, it took years, but i'd probably say two or three years later, i i think i kind of wove into the groove. having children and adopting to their schedules and all of that is a great assimilation strategy for moving to a new country. so that was a great asset as well. but yeah. i mean, the things that i appreciate about the slower pace and the higher quality of life and, you know, security and just nature at your doorstep is, you know, well built into my routines. from a daily perspective, i get up and i usually go for a walk. and, you know, i can take three steps out my door and be in beautiful nature, which i appreciate. and, you know, the weather's temperate, so, you know, i can put a t shirt and shorts on and head out anytime of the year. i love that too. but one of the things that i have realized as i've, you know, kinda cultivated my career, because i have clients globally and i travel around the world, is that when i come back home, there's just like a a sigh and a deep, you know, breath that i take that i kinda take it back in, and i miss it. i truly do miss it. one of the ways, recently, just in the last year, i've started doing retreats, for women here in costa rica. i have my second one coming up in september, september twenty eighth to october third. and it's recharge. it's recharge for mindful women. and the idea is how can you pour into yourself as you pour into everybody else in all aspects of your life. because i find we women professionals, especially, extend ourselves and stretch ourselves very thin. and so, i have found on a daily basis how to recharge, but i think a lot of women struggle to do that really well. and so offering a week away to indulge in beautiful nature and feed you your soul, you know, heart, mind, and body is an excursion and experience that is a beautiful thing to offer. Sarah2:  yeah. i i when people ask me what works in marketing right now, i always say beauty, nature, you know, self care. those are the things that that people crave right now. so so yeah, if you're having something like that to offer is is amazing. and i was just thinking how similar it is with me arriving in sicily, because we have a place in sicily, and it's kind of very similar. you know? it's like it's chaotic in terms of administration and and laws and everything like that. and yet it's such a different lifestyle. like, it all it's all about, like you said, family, friends, good food. that's what matters to people there. right? and then the work come come second. and i remember now we have our own car there, but we used to have a rental car and then arriving at the airport and then having to rent the car. at the beginning, the first few times we went, i was, like, so anxious and nervous because it took them forever to set up this rental car. it was, like, an hour of paperwork and everything was in paper still. like, i'm like, come on. and then eventually i just kind of like laughed at myself. i'm like, oh, look at, look at you, the swiss. who's like, oh, you know, work, work, work. no, you have arrived. this is it. take it slow. right. and it's, yeah, it's interesting that you also can get that experience of just breathing out when you get back home and you're like, i made it home. i can be calm and relaxed now. yeah. another thing that, that i'm thinking of with in relation to costa rica is that, at the last, inner development goals, summit i was, they actually brought costa rica as an example because you guys use the inner development goals on a national level. and that's, like, that's unheard of. right? it's such a huge testimony to what matters even at the government level. so i'm just curious if you, yeah, how that's being visible in costa rica, if i if at all? like, do they talk about it? Lisa:  absolutely. there's quite a marketing campaign, the essential of costa rica and christina figueres, whom you know from all of that work around idg and just kind of how do we create a better world and how do we protect what we have. i mean, she's been very, very vocal and very visible in the country, but we have, you know, great resources for such a tiny country in the world. and the preservation of that is a utmost priority in the country. there's great focus. there's great resources. there's great knowledge and commitment to in that. so, yes, it's, you know, very important and built into the systemic structure of all of costa rica. so very Sarah2:  we talk mainly about animals, but in the business like we're human book, i just talk about nature in general and and talk about some of the ways that i've integrated nature into into my business. how you mentioned walks. is there any other ways that you even bring it into client work or or just kinda like how you, yeah, integrate nature and animals and other living beings on this planet into your work? Lisa:  no. i do. a lot of times when i am meeting with clients in quarterly workshops, we build time in nature into it. it's kind of a way to breathe. it's kind of a way to decompress. it's kind of a way to kind of go deeper from within, and it connects teams powerfully. i mean, greater creativity, greater resourcefulness, greater connection, building vulnerability amongst the team happens so much faster when you're outside than when you're in a conference room or in your, you know, office meeting room. i'm a big advocate of exercise too. and so a lot of times, with my clients on a one on one basis, we'll talk about their routines. like, how do you build movement into, your routine as a way to kind of process, as a way to feed, you know, your soul, as a way to be healthy as well. and a lot of times that involves being outside in nature. i'm a big fan of awe walks, awe. and so i spent a week with doctor doctor doctor keltner. he leads the better services science center at university of berkeley in california. and he has researched awe for, like, thirty years. he has a fascinating book called awe. he's got several books. and it's amazing how there's so many sources. he has, like, eight principles of awe, nature being one of them. but, you know, collective ever essence, like the time favorite too. yeah. i mean, it's such a beautiful thing. and so often when i do retreats with clients, that ability to be disconnected from the workspace, but yet together is that collective ever essence. it just brings out the best in people and, you know, it really fuels creativity and innovation. it's a super powerful force. and i find combining that in nature is spectacular. so Sarah2:  yeah. especially in a place where, you know, you can always go outside. so why wouldn't you? why wouldn't you use nature as a classroom? yeah. Lisa:  and it doesn't matter the weather. i mean, i i have clients in all different, atmospheres and climates and, you know, bundle up if it's cold. it doesn't matter. get outside and experience that. it's a a beautiful resource available to us at any moment. Sarah2:  mhmm. yeah. if you had to give, like, one advice from the sloths to the business owners, entrepreneurs who are listening, what would that be? Lisa:  yeah. move slower. just move slower. take more in. i love that sloths are super observant. and that's part of their kinda maintaining their, you know, lifestyle and being a survival skill. i think we as humans go too fast, and we build things in. like, busyness is a factor of success. and and i think that's part of the paradigm that you're working on in business like we're human. it's important to me too. how do you take things more slowly and actually more richly connect and generate greater impact? i mean, there's not a correlation for me on generating impact is my passion and my purpose and my work, and there's no correlation with going fast with that. it actually defeats the purpose. and so the slower you go, actually, generally, the better results you can attain. mhmm. yeah. i would say go slower, be more observant, and, you know, really focus in on what's most important. Sarah2:  yeah. and go deeper with your work as well because you're going slower. yeah. Lisa:  absolutely. so often when leaders come to me, they wanna scale their businesses super fast, and that's always the desire. and i say, okay. what have you tried before? what's worked? what hasn't worked? and i always say, you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different outcome. so let's try a different trajectory. so i spend quite a bit of time with clients in teams because i work with founders and leaders and their leadership teams to kinda build that vulnerability, that deep connection, that trust so that then when they journey together, they can go further, not necessarily faster, but it often happens that it happens faster because they have a very profound, deeply connected and well aligned structure and path to journey together. but that human connection and really building the strong resilient team is always the first step. and it amazes my clients. it it continues to delight me at how powerful a leadership quality that can be to achieving whatever they set out to achieve. and often, while their initial goals are i wanna, you know, hit a bigger number, i wanna hit it sooner, i want to, contribute more financials to the book, they very quickly identify impact goals as well. like, what's the difference in the world i wanna make? and how will the success of my business make the world i live in better? and how do i contribute to that? which is, you know, so rewarding for me. Sarah2:  yeah. and you basically hold the space to help them slow down. right? Lisa:  yeah. the guide on the journey indeed. yeah. yeah. Sarah2:  it's beautiful. wow. thank you so much for for being the sloth and and being the role model as, you know, it again, i think it takes a little bit of courage to say, i don't, there's no shame in being the sloth. i want to be the sloth. i want you to understand the power of being the sloth. and, and that's exactly the role models that we were missing up till now, because, you know, look where it got us. and so, yeah, i applaud you for for being the sloth and sharing what we can learn from these, from nature around us and animals and and everything. so Lisa:  thank you, sarah. Sarah2:  please do share where people can find you. sorry. Lisa:  i was just gonna add one thing. one of the questions i always ask, and this was at the end of my chapter, is what are you courageously willing to say yes to and not know what's on the other side? mhmm. but to do that, you have to courageously say, what am i willing to quit yeah. or say no to to allow the spaciousness to kinda enter into the unknown. to your question, where you can find more information about me is my website, which is w w w dot lisa folger, f o u l g e r, dot com. yep. and i've got information on the verdesana costa rica retreat and all the different offerings i do around scaling your mindset, to scaling your leadership, to scaling your team, and ultimately scaling your business. Sarah2:  wonderful. i love how you combine scaling with such a mindfulness mindful approach and slow approach. right? because it to me, it's a perfect example of understanding what people want and then giving them what they need. and so what they want is to scale and fast and hustle. and then you're like, wait a minute. yeah. we're gonna get to what you want, but we're gonna do it in a slightly different way. so, yeah, i love that. love that. and i also look forward to the to the next session at the expo and continue our animal journey. so excited for that. thank Lisa:  you. we're excited as well. and i think we'll even expand beyond animals, into nature. but, yeah, there's a lot to explore around being and a fascinating topic to explore. Sarah2:  yeah. i'm actually just off to a trip to egypt and, you know, find out what we can learn from ancient civilizations, whether they were human or not human, but just kind of like tapping into the ancient wisdom wisdom as well. so Lisa:  i'll report back. yes. enjoy fully. that sounds fascinating. Sarah2:  thank you. Sarah3:  i hope you got some great value and inspiration from listening to this episode. find out more about lisa and her work at wwwlisafolger.com. and if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? lisa is an active member in our community as well. find out more at humane.marketing/circle. and you'll find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm20seven. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. and soon, my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing Podcast, I'm joined by Bev Feldman who shares her refreshing perspective on email marketing rooted in empathy rather than manipulation. Together we explore how conscious entrepreneurs can build authentic connections through their email communications by prioritizing consent, transparency, and genuine value. Bev reveals her ALIGN framework that transforms traditional email marketing into a trust-building process, helping you connect meaningfully with your audience without resorting to aggressive sales tactics. Whether you're struggling with low engagement or feeling uncomfortable with conventional marketing approaches, this conversation offers practical strategies to make your email marketing more human, ethical, and ultimately more effective. Discover how respecting your subscribers' agency and meeting them where they are can create stronger relationships and better business outcomes. In our time together, we talked about: The importance of consent in email marketing and not adding people to lists without permission How Substack functions as both a newsletter platform and community Best practices for email marketing with empathy, including the contrast with typical sales funnel approaches What engagement really means in email marketing (beyond just open rates) Using storytelling to build genuine connections through email Common mistakes people make with email marketing tools Finding the balance between automation and personalization in email marketing The upcoming workshop on April 2nd and Beth's ALIGN framework for email marketing Watch this episode on YouTube --- Speaker 0: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah zaneckroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers. mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meet ups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. welcome back, friends. today's conversation fits under the p of promotion of the humane marketing mandala. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and are listening for the first time, you probably don't know what i'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. that's the number one and the word page and for the non native english native english speakers, humane is humane with an e at the end. so human and an e at the end. this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. so it's a self reflective exercise and not just a seven step guide to follow. i'm talking to beth feldman today, whose values on email marketing are very much aligned with our humane movement. beth is a kit, formerly convertkit consultant and email marketing strategist at your personal tech fairy. her approach to email marketing is grounded in consent, human connection, and giving subscribers agency while also keeping things streamlined and simplified. though much of her time is spent in the digital world, bev's an an analog girl at heart, preferring reading physical books over ebooks, doing jigsaw puzzles, and meeting in person with friends and fellow business owners. in our time together, we talked about the importance of con consent in email marketing and not adding people to lists without permission, how substack functions as both a newsletter platform and community, best practices for email marketing with empathy, including the contrast with typical sales funnel approaches, what engagement really means in email marketing beyond just opening rates, using storytelling to build genuine connections through email, common mistakes people make with email marketing tools, finding the balance between automation and personalization in email. and then, uh, beth also gives us a sneak preview to the upcoming workshop on april second and shares her aligned framework for email marketing. so if after listening to this episode, you'd like to join us for the live collab workshop and work on your welcoming sequence and more, then please join us in our community with a small donation. you'll find all the details at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. it takes place on april second, five pm central european time, and that's eleven am eastern time in the us. alright. let's dive in. beth, it's good to talk to you. welcome to the humane marketing podcast. thank you, sarah. it's good to have you here. email marketing with empathy. uh, i think that's your spiel. right? Speaker 1: yes. very much so. Speaker 0: um, on your website, i'm gonna start with, uh, something i found on your website. you say my approach is rooted in consent, human connection, and strategies that align with your values. mhmm. tell us more about that. Speaker 1: yeah. so and i think i think you've kind of alluded to how you've changed your marketing over the years, but i for me, it's been very similar that i think we're those of us who've been in this online business space for a while are very much have been bombarded with a lot of messaging on, quote, unquote, the right way to market our businesses. and i know for myself, i've tried a whole bunch of strategies that, you know, i did because they, quote, unquote, worked, but they didn't ever fully sit right with me. and i think a lot of times the what we hear is a very much a one size fits all approach to marketing, but what works for one business model might not work for another business model. similarly, you can have two businesses that are technically the same business model and once a strategy that works for one person will not work or for one business will not work for another for another. so that's really much about where i kind of bring in my approach that it's looking at, does something sit right with me? and if not, then maybe you should be evaluated. and think about, like, not so much does this sit right with me, but if i'm on the receiving end of this strategy, how would i feel? and if you knew know that you it wouldn't sit right with you, probably not a good strategy to use. uh, as a and then similarly or kinda not similarly, but going back going back to the other one, consent, that, you know, being here in the us, we have kind of some more lax rules around privacy and consent. and, technically, you can add people to your email list whether or not they have consented. and i think many of us have been on the receiving end of receiving emails that we did not ask for. so my approach is, you know, very much, did people ask to be on be added to your email list? it will not work with people who purchased the email list. that's just it's it's not good for a whole bunch of reasons. so it's not gonna help with your email showing up in people's inboxes if you're you adding people who didn't ask to be there. so it's just kind of this weird strategy that i think some people still use even though i really don't believe it works because people don't we're all bombarded with emails, and we don't wanna receive things that we didn't sign up for. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. it that's it it it always surprises me when i'm, you know, talking to someone, like, on linkedin, for example. and, yeah, we have a good exchange in the e in the linkedin messages. and then sure enough, like, two days later, i received their newsletter. mhmm. and i'm like, well, how do i say this in a kind way? but just because we talked, it doesn't mean that i wanna receive your your newsletter. exactly. and yet some people still believe that that's how it works. yeah. Speaker 1: yeah. exactly. i actually had something similar happen where i was talking to someone and they messaged me and they said, oh, i'm doing this workshop. would you like the information? i'm like, sure. send it over. and they're like, okay. i i added your your email to my list. and i was like, excuse me. that's not what i said. i said, send me the information, not add me to your email list. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: and they also use an email that i very intentionally an email address i very intentionally don't use to sign up for for for email list. and so they kind of also took away my own agency over deciding, like, should do i wanna sign up for it? which email address do i wanna use to sign up for it? so yeah. gonna feel good. and i do a lot Speaker 0: of times, it's well intentioned because they just want to, you know, share their good work, and i'm sure they're doing good work. Speaker 1: but yes. Speaker 0: yeah. there's some kind of, like, rules to to respect and consent is is pretty much the first one. right? Speaker 1: exactly. and you can always still invite someone. say, oh, you know, in this situation, you know, if you connected with someone and i've done this where i've invited people. i've been given a little, you know, like, you know, if you like this conversation and you like what i share, you might be interested in receiving my newsletter. here's what it's about and here's the link to sign up. and i've had lots of people, you know, i've had people say say, no thanks, i'm all set. i'm like, great. i've had other people thank me. they're like, oh, thank you so much. i just signed up. mhmm. Speaker 0: and i Speaker 1: think it feels good on both ends, even getting that note. like it knowing that people had that ability to decide options. both. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. exactly. yeah. yeah. we recently talked about substack in one of my programs, and, uh, people asked me about it because they heard good things. and i shared that i really like the idea of having an a newsletter mixed with a community, and then always also the option to sign up. but you don't have to because you can read the the content without having to sign up. so that combination, i think they really figured something out there that that it's not every not everything is locked behind this email wall, and and it just really feels like a good platform. are you on substack? Speaker 1: i am not on substack. not mostly because i'm so active on doing my newsletter on kit, formerly convertkit, that i didn't i it just felt like i would be Speaker 0: dividing it to my things. yeah. Speaker 1: but i have seen people do that well where they have both a substack newsletter substack newsletter and then an email marketing software newsletter because i think it is a is an important distinction to make an important distinction to make. that substack is intended to be a newsletter. so it's really for things more like thought leadership. and there's it's fuzzy because it's not really a promotional platform even from my doing my research on this because i'm asked so often, substack versus kit, that it actually goes against their terms of services to be used exclusively right. to promote your your products and services. it's not an email marketing software. but i have seen people kind of use it in both ways. um, i've also seen people who use an email marketing software for their business and use substack. they'll mention what it is they do, but they use it more for something that's maybe related, but not quite what they do for their business. Speaker 0: yeah. i like that. the combination of both because to me, substack is also more community building. mhmm. because there's the option to comment, and then, you know, there can be a conversation started where on email, well, if people do hit reply, it's still one on one. it's still yes. so it's it's not community based. so exactly. yeah. yeah. that makes a lot of sense. alright. so talk to us a little bit about best best practices when it comes to email marketing and using empathy. and maybe you can start with the anti, uh, you know, dough or the anti hero, uh, example of what it's like, like the typical funnel, of course. Speaker 1: yes. oh my gosh. i have such a clear example of this that happened just a few weeks ago. i was listening to someone's summit and someone, one of the participants was had something that they were giving away. and i said, you know what? i'll i'll sign up for their freebie. and immediately, i was pulled right into this very intense sales funnel where i was getting with i think in the five days i lasted on their list, i'd received, like, seventy emails. i didn't count exactly, but it was some days i did notice i was getting two emails, and i just signed up. and my options at this point were to delete or just delete them because i wasn't interested in what they were selling at that time. and if i was just to full on delete those emails, it's not good for the business owner. so when you think about email marketing, you want people to read and engage with your emails, and people not opening and just deleting your emails are one of the worst things that for a business owner because it can impact your deliverability or your email you know, the ability of your emails to show up in in people's inboxes. so, anyway, my options were to delete them to really just to delete them or unsubscribe. and, ultimately, i went with unsubscribe because i was like, this is this is way too much. now, kind of the opposite of that, the more empathy driven version of it, and it's something that i practice and i put in i will work with my clients to do is to to give people the option a couple things. to really set some clear expectations of here's how many emails you're gonna receive from me about x thing over the however many of days, and then you can you'll expect to hear from me on whatever. even if they said, oh, you know, i email every day. at least gives me some indication. i don't know. the other thing is giving people the option to opt out of certain things. so if this person had said to me, you know, i'm selling selling you know, over the next week, you're gonna receive a bunch of a number of emails about this particular offer, and here's why i think it will help you. if you don't wanna receive those emails right now but wanna stay on my regular email list, you know, my regular weekly newsletter or whatever, click here, and i'll do that. and that would have felt like that would have given me some control. it would have acknowledged that just because i signed up for this free thing doesn't mean i wasn't that it would it would have acknowledged that just because i signed up for this free thing didn't mean in that moment i was ready to buy the bigger thing. but it still kinda left the would have left the doors open for me to say, well, maybe down the line. and that's really how i approach email marketing that just because in this moment in time time you are selling something doesn't mean the person on the receiving end is is a good time for them or they wanna hear about it. and giving people the option to opt out of things versus just getting every single thing you send is really the way to lead with empathy. and it it's leaves people on your email list feeling good, and it also helps you as the business owner, again, to make sure you're just sending the emails to people who want to hear hear from you. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. and and just the idea of selling in that welcoming sequence is kinda strange to me to begin with. like yeah. right? Speaker 1: yeah. it felt it felt strange to me. and and maybe this works for that person, and that's why they do it. but i felt as the on the receiving end, a little shell shocked, i guess. i was like, what is happening? Speaker 0: well, it's a typical funnel approach. it's like, oh, i give you this free thing, then you want this, you know, low cost item under twenty bucks, and then i had got you hooked, and then you're gonna actually. so so that's the typical way that we're taught to yeah. set up a funnel. right? Speaker 1: oh, yeah. and just to be clear, you know, i did this too. like, this is how i was taught. i was like, okay, this is what i should be doing. and i had for my former business, i had a jewelry business and i did this. and i didn't actually make that many sales from it, quite honestly. and it required at one point, i was you know, i paid for this extra extra technology that was just costing me more money than i was making. and then i was like, well, i can do it without paying for it, but then i manually had to go and update things and lead pages every week. and i was like, why am i doing this? this is such a waste of my time and money. and i'd rather just give people information, give them the option to always you know, here's that thing. like, i can still link to it. yeah. the things that they can buy. but i was like, in retrospect, i'm like, what? what was i doing? but i think i needed to learn those lessons Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: so that i could do what i do now so much better. Speaker 0: right. yeah. no. i totally hear you. like, all the retargeting strategies that we were learning, if they click this, then now sell them this and yep. all of that. and it might work for an ecommerce site, probably still works. but for something like us, where we are actually selling trust and human connection, that is just, like, the opposite of what should be happening in these emails. right? it should be trust building and not trust yeah. take a great trust, really. that's what it does. i'm sure that's how you felt with with these the the series of bombarding emails, wanting to buy. yeah. yeah. i Speaker 1: was like, this is not what i signed up for. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: wow. yeah. it was a a very fast a very fast unsubscribe. Speaker 0: right. you talked about engagement. right? in the end, that's the ultimate goal always. and it's always like, it's this big word that we often use also on social media. in the end, like, what does that mean in a with an email list? you mentioned opening rates and what else? Speaker 1: yeah. so so i will say that you have to kind of take open rates with a grain of salt. they're not very accurate, and this is true across all email marketing all email marketing softwares just because of how things like apple has set things up, which which, you know, from a marketing perspective is frustrating, but from a, you know, consumer privacy perspective, i totally respect why they do that. so it's harder to i wouldn't necessarily use open rates as a good as an engagement marker unless it's in kind of context. so, yeah, opening you know, looking to see if people are opening your emails, first step. better step are people clicking on your emails. and, again, that can be a little tricky to track because some email provider inbox providers will kind of use these bots to pre click things, i think, as a way to make sure that they're not spam. so sometimes click through rates are also not very accurate. but things like replies, you can't fake it. well, i guess you could fake a reply with ai nowadays, but chances are we're not getting too many ai replies at at least this point in time. so if people are replying to your emails, that's a really great indication of engagement. kits added a new feature called polls, and i don't you know, i think different email marketing softwares have different things. but polls, uh, it's like as it sounds. you give people you set up a poll, you ask a question, and people have to click on an answer. but because they have to actually click and then it takes them to a page where they have to confirm, it actually is more accurate because people have to take you know, a bot's not gonna be able to click it twice. Speaker 0: right. Speaker 1: so, um, and i think and, obviously, if you see people purchasing things, but recognize that for, you know, a few things that depending on how your business is set up, you're not gonna be able to necessarily be able to track a click leading to a purchase. um, Speaker 0: or depending on the size of the purchase as well purchase as well. Speaker 1: yeah. exactly. Speaker 0: if it's a five dollar purchase, yeah, then probably that came from the email. but if it's a two thousand dollar course, well, that lead time is much longer. right? so Speaker 1: exactly. exactly. and then, you know, it's if you don't so just because i'll add you don't see people necessarily replying to your emails, especially, you know, if you're at full on asking for replies, it doesn't mean that people aren't engaging with your emails. i think people i've had people actually over outside of my emails just kinda come up in conversation. they'll be like, oh my gosh. i loved your email about x y z, or i love reading your emails. i read every single one. and and it's not like they and it's not like they reply to my emails and tell me that. so sometimes you don't even know, which is, you know, can be kind of the frustration. Speaker 0: because because our subscribers are smart. right? they're they're they're savvy. they know that this email goes out to a group of yeah. however many subscribers. so it almost feels a bit awkward, i think, to people to hit reply to to to an email, uh, that they know goes out to a large group. so i think that's why people don't necessarily always engage because, yeah, they'd rather tell you in person or yeah. in another email or or on social media or something like that. Speaker 1: yeah. can i actually put give a fun engagement? i don't wanna call it a trick, but a a thing you can try if you're feeling frustrated that you're not getting replies to your emails is asking people to reply with a a specific word. mhmm. because i can really open up the door for conversations. i'm actually i am real i'm involved with a local grassroots environmental nonprofit, and i've been doing a lot of the emails. and we hadn't emailed in, like, a year to our group or, actually, we sent an email in the fall, but it basically had been a long time. but i had this idea for reading this book called climate action for busy people. so i didn't wanna plan the whole thing until i knew there was gonna be people who are interested. so i, you know, used a storytelling email storytelling email, and i said, you know, i'm thinking about doing this book club to bring us all together. if you're interested, just reply with the word book club. and within twenty four hours, i think i got seven or eight replies. and this is from a list of people who, like, they haven't really heard from us very much. but i think giving people something a little bit easier to do can be really powerful and a great way to start a conversation. Speaker 0: i love that. that that is yeah. that is very smart because you otherwise, you have to think about what am i gonna say. yeah. especially my subscribers, they're kinda like on the introverted side and, you know, it's like it takes us a good half hour to write an email. and so, yeah, just one word, and it's fast and and easy, and yet it can start a conversation. i love it. Speaker 1: yeah. and sometimes, honestly, even if you ask for a word or, like, give people give a poll, but, like, ask them to reply and just give them, like, choose a if you feel this way, b this way. sometimes you'll actually get more than just that. i've had people reply with to a poll with, like, a, and then they'll go on and write a longer explanation. i think mhmm. making it easy for people so we don't have to get bogged down in the like, these big introspective questions that can feel like a lot to reply to, but make it you know, if you give peep make it a lot simpler for people, again, leading with empathy, recognizing how often we see something in our inbox that feels like, oh, this is really interesting. let me think about it. and then you just forget about it. and not intentionally. yeah. so much going on in Speaker 0: our lives. you mentioned storytelling, so i assume that's another way to, you know, to build this genuine connection via email. so not not actually make it sound sound like email marketing yeah. which it sounds like you and me both, we kind of, you know, learned that way. and and and now it's like, well, actually, we don't wanna make it sound like anybody else. we just wanna make it sound like ourselves. right? oh, absolutely. storytelling is is the best technique there. yeah. Speaker 1: yeah. exactly. and you know what? i've had people say who replied to my emails or have had conversations with this about, and they're like, well, you know, i love how you shared that. i wouldn't feel comfortable necessarily sharing something like that. and that's fine. i think it's only sharing what you feel comfortable sharing about your about your life. like, i share a fair amount about being a mom because it very much impacts everything about my life because i've got two young kids, um, but i never show pictures of them. so for me, that's kind of that boundary i set for myself. yeah. so i feel fine sharing some and i don't share private information about them. i'll you know, i might talk about doing a jigsaw puzzle with my seven year old. Speaker 0: right. yeah. but, you know, we feel that's an important, yeah, thing to state because there was this tendency to use vulnerability as a sales technique. right? so that's definitely not what we're advocating. it's like no. you know, just, yeah, share what feels comfortable sharing. and also, it still has to be somehow related to, you know, the rest of your email, probably the rest of your yeah. just who you are, but not all of a sudden bring up, like, childhood trauma if it's not at all related because you can overwhelm people with too much too much vulnerability. yeah. and you don't want that either. Speaker 1: exactly. yeah. and i think well, i think it's okay, you know, to be vulnerable. but, again, like, what feels right feels right to you and maybe also giving people kind of a heads up if you feel like you're gonna be sharing something that could be very emotionally triggering for someone. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. so in a way, it sounds like we need to find this balance between automation because that's clearly what we're doing. we're using a tool to automate, and yet adding this personal touch to to our emails and to the way we communicate. right? Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. exactly. and i i'd argue kind of going back to what i said earlier that that automation piece. so it's not kind of meeting people where they're at acknowledging now might not be the right time for you. now you might right now you might not wanna receive these emails about this thing, this promotion. at the end of december, i decided to keep going with my newsletter, but i gave people the option to stop hearing from me during that holiday period and and resume receiving my newsletter in january. um, i give people the option to opt out of my welcome sequence. Speaker 0: so this is kind of how i'm using automation as Speaker 1: a tool sequence. so this is kind Speaker 0: of how i'm using Speaker 1: automation as a tool to meet people where they're at. instead of so almost giving them more agency to hear less instead of hearing more from me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: or but similarly, if they are also giving people the option to express interest in things and using automation as a tool that way Speaker 0: as well as well. yeah. i like that. the other thing that i liked when i was talking to ellie trier, she's she's on the spectrum, so she's neurodivergent, and she shared something that really resonated with me. she, uh, and it has to do with the email personalization, you know, how we have this tool that lets you use the first name. mhmm. and she is like, i don't understand how neuro normal people think that's normal, that i'm just addressing you as dear sarah or dear bev, where i know for a fact that this email goes out to a lot of people. so to her, that just always feels really strange to to kind of trick her that, oh, it feels like we're just talking the two of us. and i was like, yeah. that makes a lot of sense. so some of my emails, i just started saying, dear ones, or, you know, like, addressing the fact that it's go that i know that it's going out to to the community and not just one on one. yeah. and just, like, thought that fascinating. it's like, yeah. we just all bought into this idea that we use these email personalizations, but to her, that was, like, really bizarre. Speaker 1: yeah. that is such an interesting point. i wonder if i mean, i hear the the acknowledgment of you know, it feels weird when you get that you know, it's not addressed to you personally. or rather, it is addressed to you, but, you know, it goes out to a bunch of people. but from that other perspective, just how weird that is. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and so i'm glad you brought that up. and, also, you think about sometimes people make errors when they're putting their name in, so maybe they they're like they miss they're like they misspelled their own name or they accidentally write it in all caps. and then it looks like you're shouting their name. Speaker 0: your last name. Speaker 1: at a time. yeah. so i i could definitely see the argument for just taking out that personalization feature altogether and do, like you said, you know, big ones or dear friend or whatever, you know, whatever fits with yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. what you talking about mistakes, what what other mistakes do people people commonly make with these tools? Speaker 1: oh, well, actually, speaking of the personalization feature, sometimes, for whatever reason, people don't get, you know, have their names inputted into when you sign up for someone's email list email list. so it'll say you'll get emails that say, dear, space, comma. so clearly, there's intended to be a name there, but because there's no name field, it just shows up as this this space. so i've been on the receiving end of that and i just find it very, like, it makes me chuckle a Speaker 0: little bit. Speaker 1: because i know i've done that too. right. um, forgetting to update the subject line, which we've all done. so you get you send an email and it goes, you know, new broadcast. that's the subject line. right. or or were you meant to update the the whatever your email marketing software uses to pull in the name and it says so then you get an email that says, dear in, like, brackets, first name goes here. Speaker 0: yes. exactly. yeah. Speaker 1: i and these things i always like. those i'm just like, oh, they made a tech error. i know i make tech errors. Speaker 0: so yeah. those are actually very forgivable. right? it's more the the strategy ones where yeah. like, the the example you you shared first is, like, the overwhelm and the manipulation. those those are the bigger i'm missing. yeah. and then often it's not their fault. it's just that they're following the wrong marketing person. they should follow you instead. Speaker 1: yeah. and this is why i always recommend and this actually goes into what we'll be talking about in the workshop is that i always recommend signing up for your own newsletter, freebie, lead magnet, whatever you wanna call it. i hate the act i actually personally do not like the word lead magnet because i think it dehumanizes this process if, you know yeah. i don't like to think of people on my email list as leads, and i'm magnetizing them on. like, they're people don't like it. yeah. actually, i don't like a lot of marketing jargon. but i always recommend signing up for your your your opt ins, your your freebies, and seeing what it's like so you because i think we there's so many moving parts that go into it that i think when you're done, you're, like, just so relieved. you're like, oh, i got that thing out there. but it's so important to test it up, test it out as someone going through that process who doesn't know you yet and seeing what happens because here's where you'll you'll uncover some some errors you made or you might realize like, oh, shoot. someone signs up for my thing and then immediately somehow i messed it up and now they got, like, three emails all at once, or i got three emails all at once. so that's why it's really important to really Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: take the time to check it all out. Speaker 0: and probably not just once, but, like, once a year because yeah. and i think that will be the benefit of go going through your workshop for all of us going back to, yeah, signing up to to our sequence again. i yeah. i have to say, i think probably last time i checked was last year to just go through all my emails again because i i don't just have, you know, seven. i have a whole bunch because then i added some other ones. and but, yeah, some of the stuff's probably outdated or links don't work. so, yeah, you didn't wanna oh, yeah. check them regularly. yeah. yeah. i Speaker 1: and i know i have to i really need to clean up the back end of mine so bad. i just you know, it's kind of a tedious process. but i think if i were to do it all over again, i'd probably just, like, make it a lot simpler. at one point, i tried to make it super complex, and i was like, this is my selling point. it's like to make these really complex automations. and i'm like, no. people want something simple and straightforward. and i'm honestly of the opinion, the simpler you can make it, the better. yeah. some of these email marketing softwares can let you do really fancy things with them. but then the more the, you know, the fancier and more complicated you make it, the more likely it it is for something to get messed up or to break if you add something new in or take something away. Speaker 0: i agree. and it just needs to be simple unless, again, you're running an e running an ecommerce site or or something like that. but yeah. a lot of i don't know about your clients, but a lot of listeners and my clients are coaches, consultants, and and, you know, they just want something that works, but it doesn't have to be this complicated funnel, and it shouldn't feel like a funnel anyway. it should just yeah. feel like a trust building sequence. exactly. yeah. Speaker 1: but, again, the whole the term funnel, another one of those words. i'm like, why? i just can't when i think of it, i just end up imagining, like, cattle mhmm. like, going down the slaughter. like, they're just being fed in this one direction, and you're like Speaker 0: horrible. yeah. yeah. movie is horrible. yeah. tell us more about the the workshop that we have coming up on april second. Speaker 1: yeah. so it's based on what i call the align framework. so align is an acronym, and it's really about the process that to look through when someone new signs up for your email list. so the first step is affirm consent. so we right off the bat, we're we're starting with consent. and so we're looking at things like, the, you know, do you link to your privacy statement? it's amazing to me how many people don't real don't have a privacy statement, which i think i imagine in europe, you're probably required. i think even in the us, you're supposed to have one. Speaker 0: or Speaker 1: at least certain states require it. so link into your privacy statement. if you're giving away a freebie, giving people the option to receive that freebie without being added to your to your email list. and this is particularly important if from and i'll put this little disclaimer out there that i'm not a lawyer, so don't take this as legal advice. but, you know, with gdpr, you have to be extra careful with that. and from my understanding of it, people have to be able to receive that thing, that freebie without being added to your email list. um, and then so that's, you know, thinking through these steps. and what's nice about this framework is it's tech agnostic. it's things that we should all be doing regardless of which email marketing software we use. and then from there, um, oh my gosh, i realized i like forgotten what the actual acronym stands for, but i'll just, like, go through the process because i think that's easier that we're looking at things like, oh, the second one is learn from questions. so your your opt in form can be a great opportunity to learn a little bit more about the people coming onto your email list and not in a, like, a creepy, stacker ish way, but really about thinking about it through that lens of empathy and how to make sure you're giving people the information that they actually need. so, for example, i ask when people sign up for my email list, which email marketing software do you use? and if people say nothing, i actually send them a different welcome sequence because a lot of what i talk about is not gonna it's gonna be kind of a little too high level. mhmm. so it it kind of helps them think through, for example, do you actually need a newsletter for your business? um, that one i actually invite people to reply and i'm realizing as i'm talking this through, i'm like, i don't think anyone's replying to that email. so maybe it's time to revisit that welcome sequence. Speaker 0: right. and and just ask a question with a one word answer. i'm sure that one will work better. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: um, and then the other steps are thinking through, um, you know, what ex oh, what expectations are you setting for people. so, you know, if someone signs up for your email list, making sure that they know what to do next. like, they should you know, inviting people or recommending that people go to your their inbox and check for this email and telling them, you know, what is the subject line of that email and also thanking them. and then in that first email, really setting some expectations. like, you're gonna receive this many emails from me over this many days, or i send an email out, like, at this frequency. so you want people to know right off the bat, the bat, especially if you do have some sort of nurturing welcome sequence when people first sign up that's at a more frequent cadence than what you normally sent. yeah. because especially if you're marketing to to consumers, they don't know how this all works necessarily. and if you sign up for someone's email list and you're suddenly getting an email a day, you're like, well, this isn't what i signed up for. but if people know right off the bat, you'll get an email a day. and then from after that, you'll hear from me about once a week. you know, it's in recognizing people meaning Speaker 0: people transparency. right? Speaker 1: yes. yeah. it's i'm all about how can we be as transparent as possible through this process. because i think a lot of times in marketing, we've almost been taught with this whole life system is that you don't wanna be transparent. mhmm. would you Speaker 0: have to be sneaky? you know? yeah. Speaker 1: which is like, why if you need to be sneaky to sells sell something, i feel like that should send us be sending off some little warning signals there. Speaker 0: yeah. and and it can't it can't attract the right clients. right? if yeah. if from the get go, they they buy into something sneaky, that yeah. it just can't be a good thing. no. yeah. yeah. exactly. and then Speaker 1: the last step is nurturing. so i do recommend that most people have some sort of welcome sequence. i think there are some instances where it does you know, you might not. and this is, again, where it goes into, you know, recognizing that there is no one size fits all approach to any of this. so even though for most people, i'm gonna recommend you should have some sort of welcome sequence sequence. if you are, for example, marketing to, like like, presidents and corporations or, like, high you know, c what we call in the us, c suite executives, a welcome sequence would probably be a little odd. yeah. so i wouldn't necessarily recommend it to them. right. but but for the vast majority of us, i think it can be beneficial to have something to at least welcome people into your space. Speaker 0: yeah. amazing. i can't wait for further yeah. rolling back our sleeves and actually getting getting to work and having you guide us. so yeah. wonderful. yeah. that workshop is on april second. and if you wanna sign up and join us in the humane marketing circle, that's at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. we just ask for a little donation to join us in the community, and, uh, yeah, bev will be there with us live. so exciting. why don't you share also, bev, where people can find you if they want to find out more about your work and maybe see you walk your talk by signing up to your yeah. rep. Speaker 1: yeah. so the best way i recommend is to go to your personal tech personal tech fairy dot com forward slash newsletter. and there's where i talk a little bit more about my approach to email marketing. and you can see what i just talked about, how you can sign up for my email list. and there's, like, gonna be that question i just i just mentioned. so and you'll you can kinda see how it plays out depending on what you choose. because i will say that, you know, if you choose kit versus a different email marketing software versus nothing, you'll you actually get slightly different emails sent to your inbox. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. wonderful. well, i look forward to our collaboration and, uh likewise. thanks so much for being on the show today. Speaker 1: well, thank you for having me, sarah. Speaker 0: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. as always, find out more about bev and sign up for her newsletter to see her walker talk at your personal tech fairy dot com forward slash newsletter. and if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? you can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle to join the community, or just join us for this workshop with bev at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash h m two zero six, um two zero six. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so please go be the change you want to see in the world. speak Speaker 1: soon.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, I'm joined by Myriam Martinez to explore the transformative power of creativity in business. We dive into how art and creative expression help us move beyond overthinking, cultivate self-trust, and create spaciousness in our work. Myriam shares how partnering with creativity can bring more clarity, embodiment, and authenticity to both business and life. We also discuss the “Wild Woman” archetype, reframing marketing as self-expression, and the role of right-brain thinking in shaping a more humane, sustainable future. If you're a conscious entrepreneur looking to infuse more flow, intuition, and artistry into your business, this episode is for you! In this episode, talked about: How art and creativity serve as partners in self-expression and emotional well-being. The connection between embodiment and artistic expression. How engaging with creativity helps shift from overthinking to a more relaxed state. The parallels between childhood creativity and freeing our thinking as adults. The importance of spaciousness in business and how creativity fits into that. Using artistic expression as a tool for healing, self-discovery, and business clarity. How to reframe marketing as an expression of self rather than a task. The “Wild Woman” archetype and its connection to creativity and self-trust. The role of right-brain thinking in shaping a more humane, sustainable future. Practical ways to start incorporating creativity into daily life and business.   --  Speaker 0:  hey, miriam. so good to hang out with you on the podcast. first time. yay. i'm Speaker 1:  so happy to be here, sarah. Speaker 0:  we made it happen, finally. yeah. Speaker 1:  yes. Speaker 0:  yeah. really looking forward to talking about partnering with creativity. that's what i called this episode. uh, it's the p of partnership. and, yeah, let's talk about partnering with creativity. i think, you know, you are the best person to dive into this topic, and we just kind of talked a little bit before hitting record it. this how much creativity and art brings us, especially in the times that we're living right now. Speaker 1:  right. Speaker 0:  so let's start there. how how do you feel about art, and what do you see with your clients? uh, what what it does for them? Speaker 1:  well, we were talking a little bit before coming on about the state of of the world, so to speak. right? um, and i mentioned that art making for me especially has been such a resource. right? Speaker 0:  right. Speaker 1:  and the way that i see creativity as a partner, right, and as a support system is that it allows you to express things that you might not either be totally aware need to be expressed. right? mhmm. or that may be hard to express on a verbal level. so it helps you access things that, you know, you may not have any connection to. and once it's on the art piece, then that's when the insight comes or the awareness comes or, you know, new information comes. and often, you experience a lot of relief and release at the same time Speaker 0:  yeah. Speaker 1:  depending on the kind of art making that you're you're into. Speaker 0:  so it's kind of the subconscious coming into, yeah, the paper or the terracotta or whatever, the papier mache, whatever you're using. uh, it kind of expresses itself in that form. is that what you're saying? Speaker 1:  yes. exactly. exactly. and, you know, for for me and the work that i do, i what i notice with clients is and in myself, you know, i think it's part of the human condition, so to speak, is that we get in our heads a lot. you know, we do a lot of thinking. Speaker 0:  say that again. Speaker 1:  yeah. a lot of thinking, a lot of analyzing. you know, we go in circles in our head. and when that happens, we're really disconnected from ourselves and our emotional state and what's happening inside our body. and for me, the way that i see it is like, well, that's where our wisdom is. you know? it's in our body. it's not it's not in our head. you know, we're we're feeling beings, not thinking beings. so if we get too caught up in our head, that often creates more stress. right? we become more agitated, so that affects our not only our mental health, but our physical health. and we can't think as clearly, and it can just more easily become too much, and we get to feel really stuck. right? so when we can get out of our head and into our body a little more, and that's what the art and creative experience does for you, then you can, you know, kinda lower your blood pressure. right? breathe a little easier. there's, like, a physiological transformation that happens when you engage with art, you know, from neurotransmitters being released, you know, your body moving into more relaxation, and clarity often comes from that experience. Speaker 0:  that's so funny. i have never made that, yeah, that relation between embodiment and art. but, yeah, it makes so much sense. you're using your hands or or, you know, yeah, mainly your hands and your arms probably. mhmm. but but what you're saying, it's more than that. it's just like you kinda turn off the thinking and just let the feeling come out into the art and the creativity. Speaker 1:  right. yeah. yeah. because, again, if we're if we're too overly stressed, you know, and just thinking in loops, which we can all get into, then we're not gonna be able to make great decisions. you know, it really impacts our decision making, our ability to visualize something different for ourselves. you know? and, again, we get to feel really stuck. but once we get out of that part of our brain, you know, and into the more sensory brain, then our body transforms immediately. you know, oftentimes when i'm working with clients, even if we're just doing, you know, some silly doodling, you know, something like that, you know, they immediately feel the relief. Speaker 0:  mhmm. Speaker 1:  i mean, i've i've stood in front of a crowd of, you know, over two hundred and fifty people and had them doodle. and almost every person, you know, had a transformative experience, and many people often give me the same feedback, which is like, oh, i feel so much more relaxed. i feel so much calmer. i feel like i have more clarity. it's like, yeah. of course. because when we're in that fight or flight mode, we're not gonna be able to think clearly. it's just physiological fact. right? yeah. but we need to be able to get out of that, and art and creativity is a wonderful resource and tool for that. Speaker 0:  i wonder if it also brings us back into our, you know, inner child or, like, the the the actual child stage of our lives where we're just like, oh, you know, there's no agenda. there's no time. there's no it's like, oh, this is just me and my pencils, and i have all the time in the world to to do that. Speaker 1:  that's right. there's no thinking. Speaker 0:  there's no thinking. no. or or there's thinking, but flow thinking. you know? just like, oh, this happened and this happened, but not, like, cognitive structured thinking like we would right. do for our business. yeah. Speaker 1:  right. exactly. and, you know, it's interesting that you talk about that, you know, like, the cognitive structuring. and i think that that's a lot of the way that we trap ourselves, you know, because we have, a, often unrealistic expectations of ourselves. right? but we're also want everything, like, perfectly planned out or to know what's coming and, you know, gives us a lot of anxiety to sit in the unknown. and so when you have a creative practice, you get to exercise moving through those challenging emotions. right? so if you if i put a piece of blank paper in front of someone and their blood pressure goes up, right, because immediately their thinking brain is saying, but i don't know what to do, and i'm not good at it, and what's gonna happen, and what if i mess it up? and, you know, these are all things that we say to ourselves every day, you know, throughout our day with different things. so once they engage with the process without any thought, right, like, just let the paint flow or let the marker move wherever it wants to move, then we get to exercise that muscle of learning to do that. right. Speaker 0:  yeah. and and it's again, what comes to mind is school. right? and we don't really learn creativity or creative art, uh, at school. we learn cognitive art, maybe, you know, where it's like maybe. all there within the lines and you have to construct exactly the example of the teacher. like, that's not create creativity. right? that's just like i don't know why you call that. mimicking. exactly. Speaker 1:  it's mimicking. right? so there's no independent thought around that, which is really interesting, right, versus a younger child. i taught preschool for many years, you know, which is like the three to five year old range. and what i remember about that age group is that there really was no thought. it it was all intuitive. Speaker 0:  right. Speaker 1:  i the painting is attracting me. right? and so i'm gonna go to the easel, and i'm gonna put paint on the paper. there there was no thinking around that. you know? it was all really intuitive. and when i think about a a childlike state, i think about free flow, and i think about curiosity. Speaker 0:  mhmm. Speaker 1:  right? how children are often in a constant state of curiosity. like, i wonder what that is and how does that work and let me touch it and let me smell it and, you know, all these kinds of things, you know, really connecting with your sensory being. Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. that's so good. i was just thinking about my my mandala and the seven p's. right? yes. and and how, yeah, i really wanted to combine the the framework with the creativity and with the coloring and not like, also with self reflection. so while the idea, at least for the seven piece of humane marketing with the mandala, is that while you're coloring, you're kind of, like, free flow thinking about these different areas of your business. because you're using your body and your creativity, it doesn't feel so heavy. Speaker 1:  that's right. Speaker 0:  does that make sense at all? Speaker 1:  no. absolutely. because, again, it's it's i think what people don't often understand and is undervalued is the physiological, the tran transformation that occurs, you know, when you start engaging with art making or creativity. so coloring into, you know, your mandala workbook, so to speak, right, that is gonna immediately activate the right brain, and it's gonna release those neurotransmitters that are very calming, you know, like dopamine and serotonin and oxytocin. right? and so that physiologically changes your body and makes it easier for you to be able to think clearly. that's right. it it doesn't feel as heavy. but when we sit in, like, left brain stuff, you know, like, the way that typical business planning goes is, you know, goals and it's very masculine. right? structure. you know? what am i gonna accomplish? what what am i gonna produce? you know? and that puts, like, a lot of pressure. even as i'm speaking that, i can feel that my body is getting tighter just talking about it. right? Speaker 0:  it's a linear process that Speaker 1:  yes. Speaker 0:  i feel like, oh, this. Speaker 1:  a lot of pressure. yes. it's a lot of pressure. and then we, you know, then we can move into our perfectionism stuff that it has to be a certain way and or fear of making a mistake. you know? and, again, notice the parallel between that experience and the art making experience where we can have the exact same sensations and thoughts. what if i mess it up? what if i don't do it right? you know? i was recently at a at a women's conference, and it's a pretty large conference. it was about fifty five hundred women there. and i had a booth where i was inviting people to come doodle with me. right? and what i kept really being fascinated by was how many people would either say, oh, no. no. i i don't know how, which is like but it's doodling. Speaker 0:  i didn't i didn't ask you to draw Speaker 1:  my list. like, you know, like a lifelike image of something. you know? it's just, you know, scribbling around on a piece of paper, or i would hear something like, well, i don't know. i'm not really good at that, or i don't know if i can. you know? and as i was, you know, guiding the women there, you know, explaining what i'm explaining to you, like, hey. you know, right now you're just in your head, and this is gonna help you get out of there and start flowing. you know, some of the women were like, i can't believe how much i'm in my head. i literally can't get started. right? it was like, wow. this is amazing. Speaker 0:  thinking, oh, how do i start this? Speaker 1:  yeah. is there a right way? is there a wrong way? what again, the the same thoughts that we often have, you know, as we're moving through our business and in life. right? what if i get it wrong? what if i mess it up? what if it's what will people think? you know? all these kinds of things. and when they would engage with it, every single time, it was the reporting back was, wow. i feel so much different. and i'm gonna work on this because i can see that i'm spending too much time in my thinking brain. Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. so good. in in my upcoming book, business like we're human, i talk about this concept of spaciousness and how if we healed our relationship to work and kind of, like, created because in the industrial revolution, we created this myth that we are basically working bees. right? it's like we work every day, nine to five, well, at least weekdays. and that's how we define ourselves as human is by our job title very often. and and there was no spaciousness. people, you know, run around with the busyness badge, and and, of course, they don't doodle. you know? of course, they don't have time to to doodle. right. and so, basically, what i'm hearing is the reason why people don't make time to doodle is because they don't create spaciousness in their calendar, and they feel like the their definition of success, they only get there if they work, work, work, work, work. right? mhmm. and so even doodling feels like a waste of time. i'm wasting my time. right? mhmm. Speaker 1:  yeah. and it's a little bit too, like, how art and creativity is perceived. right? there's often this misconception that, you know, a, it's for kids. yeah. right? and two, there's just no value to it. like, what what is the point? you know? if you can't draw something lifelike, then what would be the point of doing that? and so my message is, you know, let me explain to you what happens to your brain and your body and how that transforms and how that creates spaciousness in your mind, right, in your heart, in your body, and that how that then translates out, you know, into the work that you're doing. and, you know, i love that you're talking about, like, your relationship with your business because when i work with clients around their business, creating imagery about your business is actually extremely powerful. Speaker 0:  mhmm. Speaker 1:  right? because now you are in a relationship with it if you externalize it in that way. so whatever, you know, image comes to mind when you think about your business, how how would you want to imagine it, right mhmm. Speaker 0:  mhmm. Speaker 1:  as an image. and it changes because, again, our our business exists in our head or in how much money we're making or how many clients we have or, you know, etcetera. but when it's this physical, tangible thing that you can look at and touch, now you can have a relationship with your business. Speaker 0:  yeah. that's interesting. i think of of it maybe like, i would probably draw myself if i, you know, thought thought about my business because to me, it's really just an extension of myself nowadays. hasn't always been like that. but nowadays, i just feel like if i think about business like we're human, it's just an extension with myself of myself. and so i guess what i would would be working with in this drawing is, oh, what's my relationship with myself? right? because if i am my business and it's an extension of myself, well, then what's my relationship with myself? and, yeah, you can you can get into really fascinating conversations right there. Speaker 1:  exactly. exactly. and if if, you know, if you make it a regular practice Speaker 0:  right. Speaker 1:  you know, to check-in with with yourself and your business in that way, you know, again, there's just a deeper connection. it's not so surface or, um, task oriented. Speaker 0:  right. yeah. yeah. so tell me about some other tools you're using with your with your clients. like, what what do you help? there's another, uh, line that, um, you know, i got from your website. you help, um, you help women rediscover their wild. mhmm. yes. that also, of course, what it makes me think of is yeah. well, in relation with you, like, lots of colors and and just, like, yeah, this creative artist. right? that's what it makes me think. Speaker 1:  vibrancy. vibrancy is the word that comes up for me. well, the the concept of the wild woman, you know, it's related to an archetype by, um, doctor clarissa estes pintoz, and she's an author, and she talked about the wild woman archetype. and what the acronym that i came up with around the wild woman is, um, w stands for waking up to your life. so to me, that means taking responsibility for yourself. right? no one's gonna come in and rescue you. you have to do the work. right? and then the i is for ignite your inner knowing, and that's where the creativity comes in. like, there's wisdom inside you. you don't need to constantly look for it outside of yourself because that's something that i notice with women, know, as they're constantly looking for external validation or, oh, i need i need a coach for this. i need a, you know, a teacher for that. and it's like, well, sometimes that is really helpful, and other times, you're just not trusting yourself. so the creativity, you know, is something that connects you to your inner wise woman. mhmm. right? and helps you build that confidence to keep going. right. Speaker 0:  and then Speaker 1:  the the l is for love yourself fiercely, which is a huge element. like, that needs to be our baseline, you know, for living is learning to love ourselves like we do other people. you know? so i often invite my clients to think about someone that they deeply care about, somebody that means a lot to them, right, and how that feels, you know, when they think about that person, how they feel about that person, and what needs to happen to then turn that same kind of loving energy, you know, towards themselves. because we tend to be so hard on ourselves. right? so learning to be self compassionate and and be loving and kind to yourself is a huge part of business success. right? and then the d is to dare to be unapologetically you. like, you're the only person that you can be. right? but oftentimes, there's so much comparison that's going on. like, oh, wow. look at sarah. she's she's doing a lot because, you know, look at this class or this post that she put up, and so i i gotta be like sarah. you know? and it's like, no. like, i can't be like sarah because i'm me. right? i can i can have sarah inspire me? right? like, that's okay. right? but we're constantly doing this comparison. it's like, well, you you can only be yourself, and you have to learn to live with who you are. right? live with yourself. and when all those aspects are addressed, then that makes being being in life more feel more successful, but definitely in your business. right? because, again, in business, we go up and we go down, up and down and backwards and forwards, right, and sideways. and that can really impact, you know, our mental our mental state, you know, how we see ourselves, how we think about ourselves. but if we can always go back to, i'm okay. i'm a worthy person. right? and be kind to yourself as you move through all of that, then you can keep moving forward with a lot more ease. otherwise, again, we we'll just get stuck in that. Speaker 0:  yeah. exactly. you just look for the exterior confirmation that you are good enough where it's all inside of us. right? but you need you Speaker 1:  need to Speaker 0:  find it. yeah. this acronym would have fit really nicely also with marketing because everything you shared applies to to marketing as well. right? so so, yeah, tell us a little bit about your marketing story because you attended the marketing, like, where human program back in can't remember when, but a while ago. Speaker 1:  yes. Speaker 0:  and then i just watched you bloom and, like, be yourself and bring all that creativity into your marketing. so was that yeah. just share a little bit. like because i remember in the beginning, you you you thought it was hard because marketing to you just seemed like this thing that we have to do a certain way. right? Speaker 1:  mhmm. it felt like a task. Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. Speaker 1:  right? and i think that that's probably been the biggest transformation is that i see it more as an expression. right. now. right? before it was like, well, you know, you you have to do this. you have to have a website, and you have to post. and, you know, and if i i don't function that well as a highly sensitive person, it's like that that didn't feel good to me, you know, in my body. like, that's not how i wanna approach my business. i don't want it to feel like a task. right. right? and so there were oftentimes when i felt like i was doing stuff just for the sake of doing it. mhmm. you know? mhmm. and that didn't feel good. it didn't feel authentic. you know? it didn't feel right for me and my body. so once i started thinking about marketing and, again, creating, you know, imagery around marketing, around my business, how do i wanna be in it, you know, that kind of a thing, i started to really think about it more as an expression of myself. yeah. right? and how do i wanna express myself in the world? Speaker 0:  you should do a post, like, before and after. you know? because i remember i remember your your post from before where it's like, oh, yeah. this is this is a marketing post, right, where you basically and, like, everybody does, like i did too. it's like, oh, you have to create this certain marketing post. you get a canva template, and here you go. here's my message. right? and then, you know, the after is now, like, you doodling or your latest art project or yeah. it just really feels like, oh, there is miriam. she's being herself. right? Speaker 1:  exactly. it feels much more connected and much more authentic. Speaker 0:  yeah. of course, people who are listening, uh, might be thinking, oh, yeah. of course, you know, she is, uh, you know, a creative and an art therapist and and working with women like that. but what i always say is, like, bring more of you. so maybe you're doing like, i just shared with you. i'm i'm i signed up for a pottery class. like, is not part of my business. i'm not a pottery teacher, but it make a really fun post, you know, to share about this pottery class. and so it doesn't always have to be business oriented what we're sharing, and and that creativity can really come into our marketing as well. Speaker 1:  no. i agree. and, you know, just on a little side note because i think that, you know, people look at me and think, you know, well, she's a creative. creative. so you know? and, again, that's really kind of a put down towards themselves. you know? but i'm not. Speaker 0:  right? yeah. Speaker 1:  and so my backstory is that i didn't go into the field of art therapy because i i was an artist. i never practiced art. i worked with kids, and i wanted to continue to work with kids in a therapeutic way. and i thought, well, that's their language. it's art. right? and so art therapy seems like a really good fit. but the biggest transformation for me was that, you know, in my arrogance at the time, you know, over twenty years ago now when they, you know, invited me into the master's program, but also said, yes. but you need twelve units of art. you know? i was slightly offended. you know? because i thought, well, why do i need to do that? like, i'm just helping other people, which, you know, i always reflect back on that and think, wow. where was i in my journey that i couldn't even consider, right, that that would be for me? and so the gift came from learning to use art in as a tool for healing and wellness and and self development. i didn't go to art classes to learn how to draw a specific thing or technique, or that isn't how i learned to make art. you know? and so even my my personal development as an artist, right, like, i'm still working on really owning that title, right, because of all of the conditioning around art. Speaker 0:  right. yeah. Speaker 1:  right? well, you didn't you don't have an mfa or you can't draw lifelike things, and it's like, right. but none of that has anything to do with anything. from my perspective, we're all artists. we all have the ability to create and express because that's really all it is. right? and i heard, um, i heard a term recently, a little saying that said, um, expression is the opposite of depression. right? and i was like, oh. that's yes. yes. right? because depression is often we're holding emotion. you know, our body's kind of saturated, you know, with unprocessed emotion. but if you use the art process to express, then things get lighter, you know, in your body. so for anybody out there who doesn't think they're a creative, you know, or an artist, i i'm here to tell you, yes. you are. right? you just have to allow yourself to explore and experiment. and like i said before, be curious. and just see what happens. you know? if you put some paint on a piece of paper, let's see what happens. Speaker 0:  yeah. and it it really is like, art has this, yeah, connotation of, like, you need to study it and and all of that. but creativity is a different term to me. it's like, yeah, you can be creative for two minutes. right? it doesn't take a lot of time. it doesn't take studying. it doesn't take anything. it doesn't take, like, all these special tools. like, you talk about doodling. you can just take your pencil to doodle. you don't even need colored pencils or anything else. Speaker 1:  you don't need anything fancy. and it's it's good to actually differentiate between creativity and artistic expression. right? because creativity, its baseline definition is problem solving. Speaker 0:  yeah. Speaker 1:  that's all it is. creativity is problem solving, thinking outside the box, you know, coming up with new ideas. it's like, well, you do that every day, all day long. every single human does that every day. right? but artistic expression, right, is using a medium to express those ideas. mhmm. Speaker 0:  yeah. Speaker 1:  that's the difference. right? so creativity, you know, again, it gets kinda interlaced with artistic expression. but when you think about it, you know, in those in that bare bones definition, no. it's just imagination. it's just thinking about a new idea. it's just problem solving. right? it's like, oh, well, i do that. that's what most people will say. you know, it's like, right. exactly. so you are therefore creative. Speaker 0:  right. but does that mean like, i like the artistic expression because maybe that means that we're putting it out there rather than because you can be creative in your head. right? mhmm. where we wanna get out of our heads, and so maybe the expression is Speaker 1:  it's the expression. that's right. Speaker 0:  is needed. Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah. absolutely. because at some point, you know, as you're problem solving through something or if you get a new idea, you're gonna have, like, uh-huh. and and you're gonna execute something. Speaker 0:  mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1:  you know? who knows what that will be, but something's going to happen from that. and so artistic expression is just, i think, setting more intention and more consciousness around that expression. Speaker 0:  right. yeah. yeah. it's beautiful. so what would you say to people who are listening who are kinda like these women that you met at the stand? it's like, oh, i don't know where to start or i can't do it. like, yeah, what's an easy first step? Speaker 1:  well, an easy first step is to grab a piece of paper. and like you said, it doesn't have to be like, the writing tool doesn't have to be anything fancy. it could be just a regular old pencil or pen. you know? um, if you wanna have a little bit more play, you can add some color to that. right? and just move it around the page. that's it. right? Speaker 0:  it's so simple. Speaker 1:  i know. we live in a world where there's either straight lines or curved lines. right? it's that simple. and so to move the pen or pencil around in whatever way it wants to move, you know? up, down, straight across, wiggly, spirally. it doesn't matter. right? and one of the things that people will notice if they engage in that practice is that the head was gonna turn on. right? it's gonna say, i don't know. i don't know. or this is dumb. or what am i doing? you know? all of these things that, you know, go through our head. and slowly, that voice will start to quiet. right? because the other part of the brain is gonna start to get activated, and you're gonna start to notice, you know, how that feels differently. so it's it's really quite simple. right? it doesn't have to be overcomplicated at all. no one's asking you to pull out a water palette or get a canvas out or, you know, even take a pottery class like you're saying. you know? it's like, no. you don't have to do anything like that. it would be really fun if you did, but it doesn't have to be that complicated. it's just moving stuff around. and i had i had somebody say that she she called herself now a born again doodler because she and so many people will say that, well, i remember i would get in trouble for doodling, though, right, when i was a kid. i'm like, i know. that's because there's a misconception, you know, around doodling and how powerful it is, you know, and what's happening in your brain around it and how actually for a lot of people, it helps you retain more information. Speaker 0:  right. Speaker 1:  if you're doodling, like, at a meeting or during a workshop or, you know, something like that. yeah. like, it's actually gonna help you. Speaker 0:  yeah. i should have done that while we were talking. i should have you know? and then i could have held it. yeah. we need to record it again. Speaker 1:  a quick mini activity. yeah. there's still time, sarah. Speaker 0:  yeah. so definitely just just try it out. and and and i like how you say, you know, start to notice the left brain. first, they will want to rebel and say, this is just stupid. why are doing this? and then it switches over to the right brain, and it's just, like, calming down. Speaker 1:  you start to feel the flow in your body. you kinda start to let go a little bit. you know? and, again, it's such a great practice to manage some of the thoughts that can come in and interfere. you know? so as i'm moving somebody through the process, you know, the inner critic is gonna wanna come in and say, oh, that's not a very good flower, or that was oh, that doesn't look like x, y, or z. and, you know, my job is to say, do notice that. Speaker 0:  right. Speaker 1:  notice how the critic wants to come in. right? and how can we manage that? and, again, this is just a muscle building around managing that voice. Speaker 0:  yeah. so you're basically helping women tap into that right brain and creative power so that it then, yeah, i guess, helps them with their business in order to keep going. like you said before, it's like, well, you know, we need that resilience. and where do we get resilience is going inwards and using tools like, uh, artistic expression. Speaker 1:  exactly. because some of the, you know, the main obstacles, you know, that women encounter in business are things like perfectionism, you know, having too high of an expectation, you know, having the inner critic constantly be, you know, in your ear, you know, things like that. and there's not a lot that we can do about the inner critic, like, in terms of, like, that's just part of the human condition. you know, it has a purpose, believe it or not, but it doesn't have to dominate. right. it it it definitely won't be helpful if it's in charge, right, running the show. so every time that you engage in a creative practice, you know, and make a little doodle, make some art in some way, and that voice comes up, like, the more you move through that, the better you get at addressing that in everyday life. Speaker 0:  mhmm. yeah. beautiful. Speaker 1:  it's empowering. Speaker 0:  it really is. and it reminds me of this the the book, um, and the quote where, um, it says the right right brainers will rule the world, i think. and it and it really you know, it really i really feel like this is the paradigm we're shifting to. we can't we like, look where we're at. we have all this left brain power, and yet we're we can't solve the planet's problem. no. so we need to start imagining new ideas. and what does that need? creativity. right? exactly. to think outside the the box. well, yeah, we need more art. yeah. and i think Speaker 1:  that's a that's a good point. you know? i mean, we we have and continue to operate so much in that left brain and kind of masculine energy. and my observation, you know, in the work that i do is that people are really stressed out. yeah. horrible. the stress is higher than ever. you know? and it's like, how's that working? honestly, like, be honest with yourself. how's it really working for you to exist constantly in that left brain kind of masculine space of doing and producing and trying to be perfect and, you know, doing things a certain way or the quote, unquote, the right way, you know, etcetera. it's like, you know, if you really check-in with your body, you're probably really stressed. yeah. and that's not Speaker 0:  it's pretty often they're so stressed. they don't even know what it's like anymore to not be stressed. Speaker 1:  yes. Speaker 0:  so the body forgot what it's like to be calm. and and probably at the beginning, it can be stressful to do these doodlings because it's so calm. right? it's like, my god. this is so yeah. this feels weird. Speaker 1:  even know what to do. Speaker 0:  yeah. so, yeah, we need we need you. we need your help in this transition. that's that's for sure. Speaker 1:  yeah. it's a really powerful tool that's often underestimated. Speaker 0:  and it's you know, it can be free. i mean, like, look. we all have, you know, pencils. Speaker 1:  we all have a pen and pencil. yeah. exactly. yeah. yeah. it does not have to be fancy. Speaker 0:  beautiful. alright. but do please share with people where they can find out how to work with you if they need some help in in this transition. Speaker 1:  yeah. if they're looking for an alternative way. yeah. work. right? because, you know, what i noticed in the in the coaching business is that there's a lot of focus and emphasis on mindset work, you know, which is great. you know, mindset's really important. but unless you get your body to buy in, it's gonna be really hard to make that shift. right? so mhmm. the whole body approach is really important. and people can find me, you know, on on the web and at my website, mary martinez coaching dot com. i'm also on linkedin and instagram. people wanna look for me there. right? but oftentimes, the people that come to me are are looking for an alternative way. they've done a lot of, you know, kind of left brain work, goal setting. Speaker 0:  yeah. it's like they're they're like, i've tried everything. i need something else. Speaker 1:  yeah. i'm looking for something else. yeah. i'm looking for a more expansive way, you know, i would say to exist in general, not just to, you know, improve my business, you know, or anything like that, but just a way of being. Speaker 0:  yeah. that's beautiful. kinda similar with humane marketing. you know? it's like, i tried everything. i want something different. Speaker 1:  that's right. yeah. and i just why you and i are connected. Speaker 0:  exactly. yeah. and i just grabbed, uh, your card on my desk, and i don't know if i ever told you. you know the the peace symbol? yes. yes. yes. did i tell you that the business like we're human book is based on this peace symbol? no. oh, i forgot to tell you that. yeah. i was like, oh, i need you know how i had the mandala for the marketing for human book? and so i'm like, i need a new visual, right, for for this third book. and i looked at your your card. i'm like, that's it. we need inner peace so that we can bring outer change. and so that's what the business like we're human book is based on is your picture that you sent me. Speaker 1:  oh my gosh. that's so exciting. right? Speaker 0:  yeah. so, yeah, peace peace sign. more peace and more creativity and art. that's what Speaker 1:  right. and bringing out onto the world. otherwise, we're just producing. Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. yeah. we're just producing. yeah. that's powerful. mhmm. well, thanks so much for this wonderful conversation, miriam. really enjoyed it. Speaker 1:  yeah. thank you too, sarah.

In this new episode entitled Attract Conscious Clients with Your Website, we welcome Uta Demontis, an branding and web design expert for conscious customer attraction. Uta shares invaluable insights on how to create a digital presence that resonates with discerning, values-driven clients. From authentic storytelling techniques to essential website maintenance practices, this conversation covers practical strategies for conscious entrepreneurs looking to align their online presence with their mission. Whether you're refining your existing site or building from scratch, Uta's guidance will help you craft a website that not only attracts your ideal clients but also reflects your deepest values and commitment to positive impact. In this episode, we discussed: What conscious consumers really look for when they land on your website and how they think differently from traditional customers Ways to showcase your values and mission authentically online without coming across as preachy or fake Real examples of websites that nail it with conscious consumers and what makes them so special How to tell your impact story in a way that genuinely connects with conscious clients (and doesn't put them to sleep) The key info conscious consumers dig for when researching your business and how to make it easy to find Why site speed matters more than you might think when it comes to showing you care about user experience Essential website maintenance tasks you shouldn't ignore if you want to keep things running smoothly Common website mistakes that could be scaring away conscious clients (even if your business is perfect for them) If after listening to this episode you'd love to implement then please join us in our community for this new Collab Workshop on March 5th. You can sign up for a small donation at humane.marketing/workshop --- Speaker 1:  hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. Speaker 2:  hello, friends. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. today's conversation fits best under the p of product and promotion as well as people because we talk about your website and how it can attract conscious clients. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and don't know what i'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. that's the number one and the word page. and it comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different pieces for your business. so it's not prescriptive but reflective. today, i'm talking to jutta demontis, an austrian based in england. jutta is a web designer and specializing in creating effective wordpress websites for coaches, solopreneurs, and small businesses. she designs websites that are strategically crafted to serve as powerful marketing tools that attract clients and drive business growth. ootah is passionate about helping small businesses and solopreneurs thrive in the digital world, providing them with the support they need to succeed online. in this episode, we discussed what conscious consumers really look for when they land on your website, and how they think differently from traditional customers. ways to showcase your values and mission authentically without coming across as preachy or fake. how to tell your story in a way that genuinely connects with conscious clients and doesn't put them asleep. but also how to create a sustainability page, for example, where you tell your story and your connection to sustainability. the key info conscious consumers dig for when researching your business and how to make it easy to find. why site speed matters more than you might think when it comes to showing that you care about your user experience. essential website maintenance tasks you shouldn't ignore if you want to keep things running smoothly. and then also common website mistakes that could be scaring away conscious clients. if after listening to this episode you'd love to implement, then please join us in our community for this new collab workshop on march fifth. you can sign up for a small donation at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. so let's dive in. Sarah:  Uta how are you today? Uta:  hi, sarah. yes. i'm very well. thank you. Sarah:  so good to have you on the humane marketing podcast. welcome. Uta:  great. thank you. Sarah:  super excited, also to have you in the community to talk to us about this topic of website care and maintenance for conscious business owners. so looking forward to march fifth. but before, let's have a conversation about this topic, which i think is very relevant. and, it combines like we said, we it combines kinda two topics. on one hand, it's focused on the business owner, because we're talking about the maintenance and the care that goes into a website. but then it also, concerns the the the conscious client because that's the person who visits our website. so maybe let's start with the with the conscious client. like, if you think about a a a website, what do you feel today that are the main key elements that a conscious client, looks for when landing on a website? like, what are they paying attention to? Uta:  yes. so conscious clients, of course, it depends whether it's a service or a product. so, you know, they're slightly different. but generally, in addition to for to any client wanting to know that the service or the product is right for them, they also want to know the background of the company. so, if it's a product, they want to know where is the material from, where has it been sourced, how has it been manufactured, how is the packaging provided, how is the transport, everything around. whether this is as green as it possibly can be, whether it's sourced in an ethical way, and everything that is, really caring for the environment and people. services, there's, the since they're not offering a product, they don't have, any sourcing material in in that way. but even the website itself is also how, a website is being how the business itself that is having the website is, conducting business. so for example, are they if they're a smaller or bigger company, how they are, you know, with the employees, are they giving back to the community, do they have certain programs that help the community, also make it more, inclusive. so there's a whole lot that different businesses can do to really show and demonstrate that they are a conscious business, that they're inclusive, that they take responsibility socially and, environmentally, and that they're doing the best that they can, in providing, a good service and product that is, also really, provided in a conscious way. Sarah:  yeah. so good. thanks for giving those examples. now in our case, there we mainly have solopreneurs. right? so these are not most of my listeners don't have a product. they there are coaches, consultants, trainers, etcetera. and so where, like, on the website, would you mention any of these engagements that you mentioned that, you know, for example, you give back to the community or that that you're supporting a cause or something like that? where do people usually mention that? Uta:  yeah. so one page, which is great, is, for example, the about page. or alternatively, they could even create in, separate pages, sustainability page or how we contribute page. but, so the about page, everything on the website is about the consumer rather than the business itself. in the about page, there's more, sort of freedom tools to really talk about the company in a way, that really shows, who they are. so in the in the case of a one person business, a one person, that person is the business. we are the reflection of the company. so we can, share our values of, also share what we're doing. so for example, if the website is hosted, by a green hosting company, then that would be a great place to also show that on the website. because i think sometimes people, they do they support a lot of be it, you know, growing trees or, supporting charities and doing quite a lot. but sometimes they're even hesitant of putting that on the website out of fear that perhaps, it it comes across in the way that they want to show off that we are doing all these, you know, activities to help others. but i think it is, i think it's really good to show if this is authentically and truthfully what the company or the one person is doing, then to show that on the on the website, for example, if they're supporting a charity, perhaps they're having a blog where they could write about a recent, you know, event where they were involved, when they were raising money for charity, for example. so all of these, inform i think all of that information is really great to share because, really, it shows of who that person, that business is. Sarah:  yeah. those are great, great places. obviously, i think the about page, besides the homepage, is actually the most visited page of of a website. right? because people are just curious. and you said it's so, yeah, eloquently. it's not so much about the owner or not only about the owner of the website. yes. people are curious about the owner of the website, but i always explaining explain it like a a mirror almost. like, they come to the about page to find out whether they're looking at themselves and whether they see themselves in the the owner of this website or in my case, since i i work a lot with with solopreneurs specifically. but even even on a product or a company website, we are looking whether we are aligned with this company, and that's what happens on the about page. so, yeah, i totally agree with you that that's a good place. i think i have actually a few, like, logos of, you know, collaborations, that i have at the bottom, like, in the footer of of, one of the pages or or maybe even on can't remember. should i look that up? but but that's other another way to, you know, have certain, logos that you, want to highlight and put them in the footer of of the website. what do you think about that? Uta:  yes. absolutely. or any certifications or, you know, organizations that you're a member of, absolutely, to place those in the footer is a great place. Sarah:  yeah. so conscious clients, they're not just conscious, but they also i feel like they're more thorough in their research, and they're, you know, they they really come to your website to get a lot of information. so what is some of the information that you want to make sure that they have access to besides, you know, these collaborations that we we just mentioned? and and how does storytelling have a role in that? Uta:  mhmm. yes. so when you, think of a website, there are really two parts of the website. so there are the main pages, which are, you know, the home, the about, the individual service pages, the contact page. this is which makes up the basic structure of the website. and within that, you're also sharing your story, or the story, that is speaking to the client, to help them understand what you're offering and whether that is the right thing. and then you have, i suggest, people to have a blog because the blog serves several purposes. on the one hand, a blog is the place where you can really write and go deeper into certain aspects of your work, all the values, and what is important to you because that doesn't all fit onto one page. it would be overwhelm for a client to to read everything. but so this is really good where it's where you have a blog because it can demonstrate, you know, that you're an expert in what you're in the service that you're providing. you can share more about you, your values. you can demonstrate that more. and, it's also great for seo. so for seo, you need to have more content, highly valuable content. and so you can share more about that in the various blog posts. Sarah:  yeah. so true. and it's funny because it's actually just today that we're having the the seo, workshop, collab workshop with, kelly druid. and in that combination of content and and and then also kinda tricking the algorithm to show up for the right people. right? for those conscious clients that i i find that fascinating that we can play the game, but play it in a humane way so that it it benefits us. and and, yes, you're so right. the blog helps us go beyond just the about page. right? so even if we're not just aiming for seo, it just gives us extra space that we can use to to expand on on those topics. yeah. Uta:  yes. absolutely. so for this, a blog is really the perfect, solution instead of cramming it all into one page. Sarah:  right. i i, i think it was a contact on linkedin, trying to remember her name. she's from the philippines. i think her first name is chek or or dulio or something like that. i'll have to look her up and and quote her in the show notes. but she's really into sustainability, and, she had this kind of template, how to create a sustainability page for for your small business, which i, really loved. and what i loved about it is that she invited us to tell our story with sustainability. because, again, we're not a huge corporation where we have a sustainability department and everything is perfect, and, you know, we're you're we're totally we taught totally bought into sustainability, and we're now an expert in sustainability. we're not. so, i, followed that that template that she shared and really just with transparency shared my story of of how sustainability has, become more and more important to me. so if listeners are curious, you can go to humane dot marketing forward slash sustainability and just kinda see how i share that story. i think that's important in the small business field because it can feel overwhelming. this whole sustainability thing can feel totally overwhelming, and we can feel like, who are we to want to even try to make an impact here as, you know, solopreneurs? but we actually can make a small impact, and all all of the small impacts make a big impact as we know. so, yeah, really, really like this idea of transparency and just saying, hey, you know, yes, i take flights, because because that's important to me. but i have many other things where i feel like i'm doing a good job. i think that that's another topic. it's kind of like this shaming that goes around, around the sustainability topic, and that's difficult, to to deal with. so, yeah. Uta:  yes. i agree. i think that is also partly tying into what i was sharing before that people then are hesitant about sharing anything on the website because somehow it could perhaps have a drawback even though the intention was coming from a good place. but i think i like to think that we're all on a journey. so it's not that we are the completed end product in a conscious business that does everything correctly. because it is a process. we're just becoming better and better and becoming more sustainable and more conscious. so i, you know, we are all in different places, and i'm just encouraged that everyone is on that journey, and we are all getting better and better. and that's, you know, what we can do. Sarah:  yeah. exactly. let's switch topics and now go to the business owner, part and more of the website maintenance. so, yeah, what what role does website maintenance have to play in this whole field of being a conscious entrepreneur? what matters there? Uta:  yeah. so i see a website like the shop window, to a shop or a restaurant. and, you know, when you go past the shop window, the shop window should really be a great reflection of what the shop is actually offering, being clean, up to date, appealing to that type of client or customer that they want to attract, and being taken well taken care of and so for me the website is exactly the same and especially for solopreneur, the business is a reflection of who we are and i see that the website is really a reflection of that business. so to make sure that it's really up to date with the offerings that we're having, that, we're keeping that fresh, that we are updating, you know, if you've got, any new certifications, for example, or client, reviews, that we're adding them to the website. so the website isn't a a one you know, a once it's done, it's done kind of project. it's an ongoing project. and i also find it actually helps me to look at myself and my business when i look at my website because it gives me an a reflection back of, okay, that's where i'm at now. so i like it actually as a kind of a journey of business and personal development. that's the way i see the the website. so, it depends whether you have a wordpress website, a wix, or squarespace, or something else, in terms of what you actually need to do. so i'm gonna focus on wordpress websites because this is where you as the business owner have to do, the more, tasks than somebody who has a wix or squarespace or some other website. what's really important is that you keep an eye on with updating wordpress, the plugins, and the themes. because what happens if that isn't done regularly is that hackers could hack, one's website and the website owner might not even be aware that they've been hacked, and that could go on for a really, really long time. they couldn't realize that at all. then the website could also be infected with malware. and then from then on, it's just, you know, you need to basically try to either review, remove the malware and sometimes just start again with a fresh website. so you don't want to have that happen, and this is why it's really important to keep an eye and keep always software updated, and that's actually also quite an easy thing to do. it's not a very complicated thing to do. Sarah:  yeah. it happened to me twice. and i can't like, even though i updated the the plugins, so i was just super, super happy that i had a backup. actually, i had a backup from the the host, but then an additional backup that i pay for annually. so, yeah, it's just such a pain when you get hacked. and oftentimes, you don't, yeah, you don't notice it unless you're on your website, like, daily and or, of course, you have, clients tell you that, you know, something's wrong there. so yeah. Uta:  yeah. and thank you for mentioning. that is the other really important task to do is to have regular backups. very often, the hosting companies offer that as part of the package, but it's good to have an additional set of backups, for yourself that you can also automate, have that backed up every, you know, week or however you want to choose to, to a a drive. and, yes, always good to have a backup and to be able to restore the website. Sarah:  yeah. what about, you know, from the visitor's perspective, i always hear that speed, is a big deal. i think it's a big deal for seo, but it's obviously also kind of important for the the visitor. so maybe the question is, well, what makes a website fast or on the other hand slow? and how can we prevent that or or keep up with maintenance to not have that happen? Uta:  yeah. so one of the major, reasons why websites are slow are because there could be very large images or media files, a lot of animations, that just make the website slow load quite slowly. so whenever, you know, somebody uploads a new blog post or any other image to always optimize the images is really important. it's also important from a sustainability point of view because the it's smaller in data, so it takes less storage space. so, optimizing images is really important. and, also clearing out, you know, your media, folder once a week, you know, so often to, delete any images that, you know, one doesn't need. sometimes, you know, people upload several versions of the same image because the sizing wasn't quite correct, but then they leave all the old versions on there. so good housekeeping really helps with that. Sarah:  yeah. yeah. that's so true. like and and informing everybody who's working on your website, because i had that happen where i was very diligent, but i hadn't thought of, oh, i need to inform my virtual assistant who's actually doing all the podcast show notes. and and so we have these mega big files, image files, and i couldn't understand why this was happening. so yeah. like, every anybody who touches your website needs to understand, a, how you minimize the images and b, why we're doing it. so so so true. yeah. Uta:  yeah. so and, mhmm. Sarah:  yeah. so explain to us you mentioned, you know, it also matters from a sustainability perspective. like, explain that to us because i remember just a few years back, i i'm working with, with the company called pond foundation where i do, measure my emissions and and buy, credits every year. but before that, i well, i actually while i was talking to them, i was like, well, i don't really have i don't really create any emissions because i'm a digital business, and so, you know, there's nothing there. and then they were explaining to me how this works. so please do explain it to our listeners as well. Uta:  yes. i mean, it's so easy to forget or to not even think about that actually everything that we're doing online, every single email that we send, every website that we load, every youtube video that we watch, that everything that all takes electricity, it takes energy, and it takes storage space to show all of that to us. and, so that is, where energy is being used up, and it accumulates quite a bit because there is just so much data, you know, going back and forth all the time. so, this is why just be becoming being conscious of that or being aware that just because we live having a digital business and we don't take drive the car and we don't take flights to visit clients doesn't mean that we don't use our resources and energy. we do. so this is where it's really, important to be mindful of. and, in the, green website field or sustainability field, there are several, agencies now that actually specifically focus on building low carbon websites because that is important to, you know, the the the world consumers and businesses. Sarah:  yeah. thank you. thanks so much. i have actually a specific question, that is gonna help me, but hopefully also others. what about videos? i think when we embed videos in our website, that's that's really bad, even worse than than pictures. right? is that correct? and and if it is, well, what do we do instead? like, it's very awkward to just include the link and then have people have to go to youtube. so what what do you recommend to clients who want to embed a video on not on a home page. i think that's kind of passe. it's but but maybe on a replay page or, you know, something like that. Uta:  well, they're embedding the the video. you're actually just creating the link. you're not uploading the video and the, you know, the huge file to your website. so it's not being stored on the website. so whether it's being watched, you know, via your website or on youtube directly isn't really going to make much of a difference in that sense because it's just displaying it for your website, but it's not stored in any way on your website. Sarah:  okay. so it's the storage part that would be bad, that would yeah. slow down my website and and be, yeah, create more. okay. so so the embedding part doesn't is not the problem. okay. Uta:  no. Sarah:  good. so you host it on youtube and then you just get the the embed code. Uta:  exactly. Sarah:  okay. great. wonderful. what other maintenance tasks did we did we not mention yet any anything else that comes to mind before we wrap up here and you give us a little sneak peek? Uta:  i mean, you're going to hear, i'm sure, a lot about that, you know, tonight in your workshop about seo. the website maintenance, is also really important for seo. so, you know, keeping checking, for example, that you don't have any dead links, for example, on the website. so this is also something can be done automatically. there are loads of websites that offer that, to remove any of the links. and then adding content monthly to really update your website, which is good for seo. searching engines love it that you have new content. if you don't really keep your website up to date and refresh it with content and information, then that doesn't send a good signal to the search engines. so that is another really key aspect of website maintenance is to continue to adding content, valuable content that, you know, your clients want to want to read. Sarah:  that's a good point. because i kinda stopped blogging for a few months now. we need to go back there. because, yeah, i do have a few keywords that do really well. but what you're saying is, like, if i slow down and that i don't add new content, then that might slow down as well because the basically, the the the search crawls are gonna be like, well, this website is not active anymore. Uta:  exactly. Sarah:  okay. wow. interesting. well, give us a sneak preview of the workshop and what we're gonna go into there. Uta:  yes. so in the workshop, we're going to go through more, all the activities of how to actually do the backup of the of the website, going to also share, a very easy process of how to add an accessibility wizard widget to your website, which is, of course, really important for websites in general, but also specifically for conscious businesses to make it really accessible to everyone. how to back up your website, your wordpress website, if, if you don't know how to do that. also, that's, a free backup plugin, so you don't need to pay any fees for that. same with the accessibility widget. also, that's also for free. so there's more hands on, activities looking at, you know, one's websites. i'm also there, of course, to answer any questions, that people might have regarding to the back end workings of the wordpress website. Sarah:  yeah. i love that. and as always, on these collab workshops, we're gonna be putting people into breakout rooms. and i can i just thought of this now is, like, have them as accountability buddies going forward? so after the workshop, maybe they can check-in with each other and say, hey, did you upload that plug in and and and give each other feedback on their websites? i think it's so valuable to have this peer collaboration going on as well. Uta:  absolutely. yes. definitely. Sarah:  well, thanks so much for, being here, uta. and and please let people know where they can find you, and then i'll tell them how to get to the workshop as well. but go ahead and please share your website and any resources. Uta:  right. yeah. well, thank you so much, sarah, for having me, and i'm really looking forward to the workshop. and, yes. so people can find me on carrot and karma dot com. and my name is ute de montes, and i'm also on linkedin. Sarah:  love that that website name, carrot and karma. very easy to remember because it just, yeah, stands out. yeah. it's wonderful. and and so if you feel like, yes, i definitely would like to, come to the workshop and and learn more and then actually roll back your sleeves and do some of these things that that just mentioned, go to humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. and as always, these workshops are held in our community, the humane marketing circle. and so you can join just for this session for a small donation. and, yeah, it would be lovely to see you. so this is on march fifth. and, again, you go to humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and we look forward to seeing you there. mhmm. so much for being here, hoota. Uta:  thank you. Speaker 3:  i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. please find out more about yuta and her work at carrot and karma dot com. and again, we'd love to have you join us in our community for this collab workshop with utah. you can sign up for a small donation at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. you find the show notes of this at humane dot marketing forward slash h m two zero four. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human, and soon my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.

In this episode, Tamas Hovanyecz joins us to explore how meaningful human conversations can reshape business for the better. Instead of the usual “What do you do?” we'll dig into “Who are you?”—a subtle shift that sparks trust, vulnerability, and holistic solutions. We'll talk about creating the psychological safety needed for authentic dialogue and how entrepreneurs and Changemakers can hold space for deeper connection with their clients. We'll also consider how “relational design” can help cultivate intentional spaces—online and offline—where real human exchanges lead to lasting impact. If you're ready to slow down and nurture conversations that truly matter, this episode is for you. Here's what we addressed in this episode: How slowing down and connecting on a human level leads to more effective, holistic solutions Shifting from “What do you do?” to “Who are you?” to foster authentic, meaningful conversations The importance of psychological safety in building trust and honest collaboration How small business owners can create deeper relationships with clients through dialogue and vulnerability Designing relational spaces—both online and offline—that encourage genuine human connection Exploring the concept of “relational design” to spark lasting change in organizations and so much more... --- How We Can Change The World With More Meaningful Human Conversations Sarah: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah zaneck rocha, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. Sarah: welcome back, humane marketers. happy twenty twenty five. i hope you had a good break. if you had one, i hope you did. welcome to another year of meaningful conversations around humane marketing and business building in order to create a business that contributes to making this world a better place. you may have noticed it already last year that there are fewer episodes than your typical podcast, but that's actually intentional. because i really want to create less but more meaningful content. so i try to handpick my guests and bring you people who i really feel are doing things differently. so having fewer episodes also contributes to creating more spaciousness for both of us, which is one of my favorite words these days, spaciousness. and also a big theme in my upcoming business like we're human book. talking about the book, i haven't given you an update in a while because i've just been busy writing. and it's now almost ready, but i'm doing things differently again and won't make a big hoopla around a book launch and instead just do a slow launch over the whole year more or less. so on the podcast, i'll be hosting some conversations with friends around topics that come up in the business like we're human book. some of them, uh, are even mentioned in the book. and so, yeah, just thinking about that gets me really excited. and if you join us in the humane marketing circle before january twenty seventh, you also get the chance to participate and contribute to a beta round of four workshops following the four parts of the book that i'll also be offering to the public when the book is live sometime later this year. and otherwise, as i said, you'll get to listen to the conversations around these topics here on the podcast. so with that, let's get started with the first episode of this year. today's conversation fits under the p of people and partnership. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if this is your first time here, big warm welcome. you probably don't know what i'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. that's the number one and the word page. and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. so today, i'm talking to thomas hovanyak about meaningful conversations. thomas energizes the role of a leadership coach, strategic facilitator, and breath work guide. he helps leaders and teams who become the most balanced versions of themselves to build innovative projects and organizations tackling complex social and environmental challenges globally. he's the cofounder of who cards, a card game on a mission to transform social interactions to become more open, vulnerable, and authentic. and we're actually using these questions in our community for the last few months and are just loving those conversations. thomas leads a truly nomadic lifestyle and can often be found balancing and walking on high lines, hundred to two hundred meters high in the mountains where birds fly by. so here's what we addressed in today's episode. we talked about how slowing down and connecting on a human level leads to more effective holistic solutions. how shifting from what do you do to who are you to foster authentic and meaningful conversations. we talked about the importance of psychological safety in building trust and honest collaboration. how small business owners can create deeper relationships with clients through dialogue and vulnerability. talked about also designing relational spaces, both online and offline, that encourage genuine human connection. and we explored the concept of relational design to spark lasting change in organizations and so much more. so i'd say without further ado, let's dive in and listen to this conversation between thomas and i. Sarah: hey, Tamas good to see you again. Tamas: hey. good to see you again. Sarah: we're saying again because we've had this conversation before and it was amazing. and then the sound wasn't so amazing. so we decided to record it again and it's been a few months you've been traveling mountain climbing. and so, yeah, it's it. i can't say i've forgotten it because there was, you know, some things that are like really got me thinking, but it's also good to have the conversation again. so we're talking about meaningful conversations. so maybe you can start there. and just like in the last few months, you you told me you've been outdoors a lot. and tell us a little bit about that. have you taken were you the leader of these groups outdoors, or were you a participant on these outdoor, experiences? and how does the meaningful conversations fit into that experience? Tamas: wow. such a great question. thank you so much. so the last couple of months, i've been mostly doing this, extreme activity called highlining, meaning that we put a a tightrope or a slackline in the mountains between two points that are currently not connected. and we go on an operation to set this thing up. and then once it's it's up there, we we get on it and we stand up and we balance and walk. Sarah: and it's i can just imagine it. yeah. Tamas: and in the last, three months, i've been involved in a big project in greece. we set up one of these highlands, which was one kilometer long on the top of the vikos gorge, which is one of the deepest gorges of europe. and, you know, the beauty of of this is that a number of people come together and many of these people don't know each other from earlier. and, they just have a common passion. and somehow this project team gets, to put together, with a very loose hierarchical structure. so i would say we're more on a flat base. there's not really one single leader. but there is a notion of, many people who know a lot, and we need to come together, and we need to find a way to put up this high line, in a safe manner. and we need to find ways of doing that so it's fast, so it, you know, responds to weather conditions. and that at the end of the day, it's safe to put our lives on. and i'm always super fascinated because, somehow this works out very naturally. and what i came to realize this last mission is that one of the reason why it happens is because we connect to each other human to human. and connecting to each other human to human kinda requires to have more than usual or more than normal conversations, meaning that we get to know each other. who are you? what is your story? what have you been, know, getting passionate about recently? what are your fears? what are your dreams? so we don't just talk about highlights, but we start really connecting on this deeper sense where we we get to know each other, and we build that trust, and we build that psychological safety so that when someone makes a mistake during putting up these highlights or, when someone has a different opinion about some safety issues, we are able to go to each other and we are able to communicate. and then we are able to fall back into being human to human and friends with each other so that we can continue having fun together. yes. i've been having meaningful conversations and i've been using that in the other setting, probably in a much more important way than if i were to use it in a business or an organizational setting. Sarah: yeah. because, because it's attached to survival. right? so it's like your survival depends on these conversations that you're having with other humans, because i think the minute you can just picture it the minute the ego comes in there and interferes, and you know, someone comes in there and thinks he has, she has all the the answers, then then things can go wrong. so it really has to be a communal, decision making process, and that requires human to human conversations. Tamas: yeah. very much so. mhmm. that's a good point. Sarah: that's beautiful. yeah. yeah. and the other word you brought up is psychological safety. so i think that's a really important thing. and you will explain as why, if you if we we want to have meaningful conversations, i think, especially in a setting where people don't know each other. right? Tamas: mhmm. Sarah: tell us a bit more about psychological safety and what you feel is important there to, yeah, set the set the space maybe. mhmm. yeah. Tamas: i mean, it's such a such a topic these days in the organizational field or in the business field on how do we relate to psychological safety. and i think the angle i would like to bring in is that, is what i've been researching a lot around what are the boundaries of, us showing ourselves in different settings, and how does that contribute to psychological safety. because on the one hand, i do believe that we need to take off the masks. we need to take off the mask that our ego, our mind is putting up to protect ourselves from something. so, typically, if you go into, let's say, to a workplace, you don't wanna show yourself that you're lacking something because you have a fear that it's going to be used against you. so you are already hiding behind the mask, or maybe you don't wanna talk about something that you love doing in your free time. maybe it deviates a little bit from the mainstream and from the norm. so suddenly there is another mask there. but at the same time, i do need to show something about myself to start building that trust that is the basics of the psychological safety. so many people, including me, are questioning that what is the healthy depth of sharing about myself in certain settings. and it's the same for me. when i go into my highlighting setting with my friends and my peers, i'm able to share a lot more as opposed to if i go on a on a gala night at an embassy. and, and i need to be able to sense and feel what is this social field around me, and what kind of questions can i ask in this field that moves beyond the regular question, but still not challenging the people in that setting too much so that they are still comfortable giving an answer to that question, which will generate a meaningful conversation? and to me, this is the aspect that comes up with psychological safety the the most that whoever is in a position of bringing different relational connections, into that field, they need to be aware of what is the quality of that field. where are people? where is the audience in that field? and how can they be challenged so that they feel that discomfort of being challenged, but they still feel trusted and safe to start leaning into it. and from there, you can start building more depth because with that, you will start talking about norms, about agreements, and you start slowly creating a space where you can be more of who you are. Sarah: yeah. yeah. i think there there really is different spaces that can be redefined how how they feel safe, right? like, for for example, i'm talking about a new business intimacy. and and that means that we can kind of question maybe our assumptions, how intimacy should look like in a business setting, and then redefine a new business intimacy that feels good for that group in that specific situations. and then in that setting, we can have meaningful conversations. but that might look different from one workplace to the other. and of course, it's very different. you know, if you compare work compared to a friend setting, where where then it's not business and intimacy, but friendship intimacy. so, yeah, i think i think it's important to understand that. maybe another thing that we should bring up before we go more deeply into into this is is how do we define a meaningful conversation? right? like, what to you does that mean? Tamas: wow. good question. and what comes to me straight away is that something that's not cognitive. mhmm. something a a meaningful conversation would be for me something that when i'm engaging in that conversation, at the end of it or at some point in that conversation, i start feeling something warm in my body. i start feeling something a sense of kindness, a sense of tingly sensations knowing that this person in front of me went beyond the usual and shared something that maybe makes them feel vulnerable. or maybe i start seeing something about their authenticity. mhmm. so you can distill some stuff from that. but, again, it's it's different from person to person because maybe someone is happy to always overshare, and maybe someone is never sharing anything about themselves. and from that standpoint, they they ran beyond, and i could feel that in my body. Sarah: and that Tamas: is the meaningful conversation for me at this moment of life. Sarah: yeah. so it's an embodied feeling of what it, what it does to you as to, as to participant in this conversation. Tamas: exactly. and and and that encourages me as a listener to also show more of myself Sarah: mhmm. be Tamas: a bit more vulnerable Sarah: mhmm. Tamas: or share something that has Sarah: a Tamas: deep importance to me, and that could be any topic. so it's not like i wanna lock out certain topics, but maybe i talk about the usual topics from a very different angle. Sarah: right. which, which makes me think. and, and i, i really feel that this is the case that we have kind of lost the art of having meaningful conversations, definitely in the workspace, but maybe also in in other spaces where it now seems like and i think that's where your who cards come in. it now seems like we need certain people, role models, if you wanna call them that, who who's some somehow facilitate or create that space to to have meaningful conversations. because otherwise, it's much easier to just stay at the cognitive level all the time. mhmm. it feels easier because, yeah, because it's not embodied and it doesn't include so much emotions. and so it's just, like, superficial and it feels easier. it doesn't give you the same it doesn't have the same risk, but it also doesn't have the same benefits, of course. right. it doesn't give you that warm, fuzzy feeling to just stay at the cognitive level. but yeah. is that what you noticed as well that maybe made you then start this project of of creating the the who cards, or or, yeah, holding more spaces where we can have these conversations. Tamas: mhmm. definitely. and definitely, i've been you know, since the last conversations we had, i've been looking back into my professional life. and one thing that really stood out for me is that i always wanted to have have more real conversations in my workplace. and one thing that stood out for me is that i think people really loved being around me is because i was challenging the topics that we were discussing even at the workplace. and this also means that many of the conversations, from the field of investment banking to social innovation to the nonprofit road, these are the three major fields i've been involved. most of the time centering around what is that we can achieve together, what is that we do together, where are we traveling, and what type of goals we need to deliver to, a, make more profit, or, b, make higher social or environmental impact. and on the one hand, we are making more profit or at least a group of people are making more profit with this in, you know, in the cost of, you know, environmental and social degradation. and on the other hand, you can also see that the social and environmental movement in a way is failing the causes because we are not able to respond to the challenges with the speed and with the efficiency that we need to. so something needs to change. and, you know, when i got into this crazy project out of which the who cards were born, we were challenging the way how we connect when we come together and we start thinking about solving these bigger issues. and we were putting it out there, this idea that if you come to these retreats we were organizing, you were not able to you were not allowed to talk about what you do. you were not allowed to talk about how to solve these big issues before you talked about who you are. and we were talking about people from high level director level of corporates, politicians, artists, actors, social change makers, cleaners, people from all walks of lives. and every single of them were challenged by talking about who they are because we're simply simply not used to it anymore. Sarah: mhmm. yeah. yeah. in a way, it's it sounds a little bit like a paradox that we need to slow down to speed up. that's what i understood from what you just said. right? Tamas: yes. and it is a huge paradox and it's very difficult for the mind to comprehend this paradox. Sarah: right. Tamas: we need to slow down and we need to start paying attention. Sarah: right. Tamas: what's in the room and who's in the room? Sarah: right. Tamas: what are the stories that they are telling and how does that inform how i need to, how i should, or how i can connect to this other person? and from that connection, what can naturally emerge? and i'm not saying Sarah: so tell me more about that. what why do we need to slow down and and create these human connections? how does that help us then speed up? Tamas: mhmm. i came to believe specifically the last half a year, but this journey has been leading up to this point, is that when we start with the question of what do you do, we really or what can we achieve together, we really start operating from the rational mind, the analytical mind, and this is only half of our intelligence. when we start connecting to each other and we when we challenge ourselves to ask questions like who you are, what makes you smile, are you afraid of death, we start unlocking a deeper sense of this other human in front of me. and with that, we start understanding maybe their underlying emotional road, maybe their underlying intuitive road. and through that, we are creating connections that is not solely relying on the rational mind anymore. it starts stepping into also this other side of our intelligence, which is more, non logical, nonlinear, which considers that we are angry, we are sad, we are afraid of climate change. and the potential solutions, the potential collaborations, the potential outcomes that that comes from those spaces are gonna be more holistic. and i really like this, word from one of my teachers, nikola siani, holistic intelligence. we need to start tapping into that type of intelligence if we want to try to tackle these challenges. simply speaking, because the rationale has not worked out. so we have a chance to tap into something deeper and see what happens. will it work out? i don't think it's guaranteed. and i cannot say with a hundred percent, conviction that it will, but it is a direction that i'm fully convinced that we need to try tapping into. Sarah: mhmm. yeah. it it feels like we're tapping into the unseen. and so, obviously, if it's the if it's the unseen, it's unknown whether it will work out or not. but it's kinda like, you know, the mushrooms with with all the little roots. what we see is just a mushroom, but what's underneath is actually the real liaison between, you know, the other mushrooms and trees and and the whole forest, really. and so maybe that's what we're tapping into by asking the question, who are you instead of what do you do? so the connection between the humans is much more solid than just, you know, at the at the surface level. yeah. yeah. it's trusting the unseen. right? Tamas: yeah. and and i the reason why i like that you're bringing in the mushrooms is because we're, you know, we're talking about systems change and and behind that systems thinking here. and i really buy into what this weird yet profound german philosopher, has been exploring. his name is nicholas luhmann. and he said that what we really need to change is the quality of communication between the actors within the system if we wanna really see the systems changing. we can't change the actor themselves. they can only work on themselves on their own, and through that, they can change how they relate to each other. and the who cards and the who are you related questions are really focusing on enhancing this quality. so in itself, we are shifting the system around us just by communicating with each other from a different source and a different place. Sarah: yeah. yeah. it all comes back on to the, the inner work and, you know, figuring out who we are. and, and that's what, you know, my seven p's of humane marketing are all about as well as like, well, because i think it's the same thing. it's also we're also a player in a system if we are marketing our services and if we are the seller and there's buyers out there. well, if we work on ourselves and we know who we are and we bring that out into the marketplace in quotation marks, and then we're being a different player. and so, therefore, the relationships with our clients and suppliers, etcetera, changes as well, because it's not in that same typical system anymore where i'm the seller and you're the buyer, but we're all of the sudden kind of like on the same playing field, because i come to this buyer seller equation from a different perspective, from a more holistic perspective. so i think i think i, yeah, i hear what you're saying. it's like it's not the it's not the system that you need to change. it's the humans in the system that will then impact the system. and therefore the, yeah, that the meaningful conversations play play a big role. yeah. so i think what we did last time is i just picked up a card. and then we had a conversation around that card. so i'm gonna do that again. and last time it was dancing. so that was fun because we got to dance. this time, it's something else. so, yeah. so the question is, what is a topic that is difficult for you to talk about at the moment? not the easiest question. right? so we can both still decide. okay. well, we can have this meaningful conversation just one on one, or we can have it on the podcast. but, yeah, let you decide that. Tamas: yeah. and then and you can also invite in, an idea of how how deep, you know, i want to share, how deep you wanna share to this question because then the responsibility really really sits with the person who receives the question. Sarah: right. Tamas: and i myself am happy to answer this question with what's true to me at the moment. you know, i've been i've been a butterfly for the last ten years. i've been leading a fairly nomadic lifestyle, living in new zealand, in hungary, in switzerland, in taiwan, and then in many other places. and on the one hand, i really enjoy living an adventurous lifestyle. and on the other hand, i just very recently, i had to really realize that, i have a deep fear in me to ground and to settle down because i'm fearing to face the discomfort that comes with living a life that, you know, from time to time has boredom in it. Sarah: mhmm. Tamas: and boredom makes humans and makes me realize that, often i'm alone or often things maybe don't have any meaning or, yeah, maybe there is some sort of a sadness there that i haven't truly allowed myself to feel. mhmm. and it has been difficult to discuss this topic, and and it just been coming up very strongly. and, you know, what i'm learning now is that once i'm allowing myself to feel whatever is below this topic, suddenly, there is a sense of release. and with that comes a sense of space, which then grounds me more in my purpose to do this kind of work, which is not an easy work. because our mind is often cannot see the imagination that a different way of living or a different world is possible. Sarah: mhmm. Tamas: and i'm happy you asked this question because i've been on this journey, and now it feels like that suddenly it's becoming lighter to talk about this. mhmm. so maybe there's a sense of shift happening in there. Sarah: yeah. that makes sense. well, thank you for sharing. Tamas: thanks for listening. yeah. how about you? Sarah: mhmm. yeah. there's there's several small things that i'm thinking about, what's very present right now. and and i haven't, you know, talked about it to too many people or or it's kind of like this intimacy thing, that i explained earlier. it's like, well, it's a topic that i talk about with, you know, friends and family, but not necessarily like on a podcast or or with my clients, etcetera. but we just, went through this journey with my with my with our son, our eldest, who, we knew for a while now that he's probably on the autistic spectrum. and and he's twenty one. and he he wanted to get a diagnosis because he just felt like it would help him to know. and so we just gone through that, this week and it was it was quite emotional. it was like at the same time, we really wanted it to hear it, that it's clear for him. and at, and at the same time, it's like, who, what a relief as parents also to know why maybe has been quite challenging, because there was, you know, there's just something wired differently in him and always has been. and and for us parents, yeah, it was not easy because we didn't know all these years. so, just just yeah. kind of my husband and i gave each other a big hug and high five and say, wow. look at look at us. we we did that. right? we somehow managed. and, you know, he's he's grown into a a very smart adult and and and it's it's like helpful for him to have this diagnosis now because he feels like, oh, i understand myself more. right? this is this is what we're talking about here. knowing who we are is really helpful to us. and and and i think the younger generation, they start way earlier for for i was joking with my husband in the car. it's like our my parents, they're in their seventies. and i feel like just right now, they're finally understanding who they are. and then our generation, i feel like i started probably understanding who i was when i was forty. and the this generation, young the young ones today, they're starting at twenty. right? and good for them because it's yeah. it really makes makes life much easier if you don't have to mask, everywhere. so, yeah, that's what's present for me right now. Tamas: thanks for sharing. Sarah: thank you. yeah. Tamas: and you know, what what comes to me just as a quick reflection is that this work and and these questions are definitely travelling on two dimensions, and one is the self awareness and then the relational awareness. and i think it's eric frome who said in the art of loving that, paradoxically, you need to start loving being alone and looking inside to be able to start loving each other, meaning that to be able to start connecting to each other. yeah. that's beautiful. Sarah: so to get back to maybe kind of, like, the business setting or even the yeah, let's let's call it the business setting. like, what's two things? what's your aspiration with, you know, bringing these conversations into the business world? and then after that, maybe we can because my audience, they're small business owners. right? they're not they're usually not working in the corporate setting. how can small business owners be these role models maybe and have more of these meaningful conversations with their clients or with their peers or things like that? mhmm. Tamas: so, yeah, our aspirations are quite large at the moment. so we we're super happy that families and friends are buying these cars from us, and then we're going beyond that as well. so we're predominantly looking at the moment, working with events and conferences, to turn their, gatherings more human. this is something that keeps coming up over and over again. and, also, what keeps coming up is that even if the promise is there that this conference is going to be more human, there is something lacking in delivery. and so we're looking at these, places to actually show people, leaders, businessmen, organizational humans, that there is a sense of quality and profit or a return on investment when you start having these meaningful conversations and give them a taster so they can then decide, is this something for my organization? am i ready to have more authentic connections? because a lot of organizations are not, and that is okay, but many are. and so we wanna find those organizations, those leaders to work with to really bringing into their cultural dna once they get a bit of a taster in a conference or in an event. so that's for us, and that's an exciting journey because we are building, you know, a team based on human connections. we've been working on this for seven years. we are in for the long game, and, we are taking it slow. but as we go along, our human connections are so beautifully flourishing, and so many nice mindset shifting moments are happening to us that, i think each of us in the team are appreciating to be doing business in such a way. Sarah: mhmm. Tamas: and then for small business owners, you know, when you ask this question, what came back to me is this moment when i used to work for the cognitive science level of greenpeace, and we were doing a massive audience understanding in buenos aires. and, you know, these amazing campaigners were working on campaigns for urban people to change their way of being and way of living to become more sustainable, and they never talked on the ground with people. and i remember this morning when i have just asked them to go out without their phones and just look around, just see and sense from a different perspectives. and they were all coming back saying, like, wow. i've seen so many things in my own city that i have never seen before. and from that, the invitation was that to start having different kind of conversations with the people of buenos aires. and that really struck me of how these questions, these human to human connections can be used in understanding your audience, understanding your customers, and building a different kind of relationships to them. almost like, you know, when i think about small businesses, i i think about a lot of community type of business emerging. so how can we start looking at customers more like our community Sarah: or Tamas: more like our ambassadors? so all our customers of the who cards, we think about them more as, like, the people who want this vision to happen in the road, and we engage with them in human to human connections so that they can start feeling that they're not just consuming here. and we're shifting that narrative around buyer and seller, but they are becoming an active cocreator of this new reality that we wanna see. and i think small and medium sized businesses are a potential power powerhouse to start doing things differently, and i can totally see how meaningful conversations can, you know, start initiating this mindset shift both from the ownership perspective, but also from the customer perspective. Sarah: yeah. i love that. makes so much sense. beautiful. well, i think everybody wants to set of those cards now. so please tell people where they can, find out more about the cards and your work and how they can connect with you? Tamas: yeah. they can come to the who cards dot c c web page, which we probably put into the show show descriptions. Sarah: i know. Tamas: they can read about us. they can order a set of cards, or they they can also play it online for free because we don't want money to be a barrier for more meaningful conversations. Sarah: yeah. it's wonderful. you can just go on on the website and and then there'll be the question of the day. so it's, yeah, i use it with, my community now. last time we talked, it was a few months ago, you asked me, so are you using them? and i'm like, not yet, but i will. and so now we started using them in the humane marketing circle. and yeah, it's really great to have the the website because the commute, the community calls are led by ambassadors of the community. and so they don't each have a set of the cards. but so they just go on the website, before the call and they pick the two questions. and so we always have these conversations in breakout rooms, with those two questions. and and i think, yeah, it just creates such a deeper quality of the call, which then the second half is still marketing and business related. but to have this foundation of, yeah, understanding each other as human beings. it makes everything different. so thank you so much. i have one last. yeah, i have one last question about the future. like, yeah, what kind of future trends do you see? how how this could change in in companies, for example? does it have to do with creating actual spaces? mhmm. or does it have to do with the management? like yeah. how do you see this changing in in in companies, for example? Tamas: that's a very, very timely question. we've been doing a lot of research the last couple of months for our b two b offerings. and just yesterday, we came to this beautiful description called the relational design agency. and what we see is that there is a need for more spaces, whether that's online or offline for people to connect. this is the number one challenge for remote or remote first companies that that the employees are not able to connect with each other. right. but every organization, every conference, every gathering has their own culture, their own dna. so while we can support them with really interesting questions, we are realizing that there's a need to support them how to bring that into their own culture setting Sarah: right. Tamas: to really meet, where the audiences are. so i see a trend coming up, and and we want to put this expression on the market, relational design. it's somewhere already there, but not so strongly. but we see that, you know, technology and speed it up life is changing how we connect. so we need to start designing these spaces with more awareness and with more consciousness. Sarah: yeah. that's really good. yeah. it's kinda like this, you know, we're saying that with ai developing there's bill, there'll be all these jobs lost, which is partially true. but there also be new jobs related. so maybe, you know, this title of relation, what did you call it? relational? Tamas: relational design. Sarah: yeah, relational designer, you're gonna have, you know, yeah, you have to really design the space for it. like what's happening in switzerland right now is, to me, it's crazy. the companies are bringing people back to, you know, from remote back to to to the office, which you could say, okay, that will help communication. but, obviously, people are not happy about it. but they're bringing them back, and they're putting them in open space. and so people are even less happy about that. so there there is a need for a new design, right? like, however that looks like, i don't know yet, but we can't just go back to the old and think that will solve the the problem. so, yeah, i think i think it's very much needed to to have these conversations around, well, how how it's it's great to have the questions, but we need to create the space for it and the time for it as well. right? Tamas: exactly. exactly. Sarah: great. well, thank you. wonderful. thanks so much for being here and, sharing your perspective and all the good work you do. Tamas: thank you so much for having me. Sarah: thanks, Tamas Sarah: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and feel encouraged to hold the space for more meaningful conversations, whether it's in your personal life or in your business. find out more about thomas and the who cards at who cards dot c c. you can order a card set there or use the online version for free. that's what we're doing in the humane marketing circle. and if you are looking for meaningful conversations around life, marketing, and business, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? you can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. we always have a seven dollar trial where you can just check us out for fourteen days. you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash h m two zero one. two hundred and one episodes. on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers, and it's really time to step up and be brave to create that change. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.

In this episode of Marketing Like We're Human, I sit down with Tad Hargrave to explore how heart-centered entrepreneurs can generate quick income without compromising their values. We delve into what ethical quick-revenue strategies look like, how to align speed with integrity, and ways to create urgency with care. Through real-world examples, Tad shares practical tips for navigating tight times while balancing short-term wins with long-term trust. If you've ever wondered how to make money quickly and ethically, this episode will inspire and guide you with actionable insights grounded in humane marketing. Here's what we'll explore together in this workshop:: What ethical quick revenue generation looks like: How can we make money quickly while staying true to our values? Aligning speed with integrity: How can we avoid feeling manipulative when generating quick income? Real-world examples: What ethical quick-revenue strategies have worked for others? Approaching urgency with care: How can we create urgency without relying on high-pressure tactics? Balancing short-term and long-term goals: How can solopreneurs prioritize immediate wins while building long-term trust? And if this episode leaves you craving more of these strategies, please join us for the live workshop on December 4th, 11am ET. You can sign up for a donation at humane.marketing/workshop --- Speaker 3:  hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah zena croce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. we share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea, like writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost fifteen years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. and finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Speaker 1:  hello, friends. welcome back to another episode of the humane marketing podcast. today's conversation fits under the p of promotion. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and don't know what i'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. that's the number one and the word page. and just a reminder that humane is with an e at the end. that's mainly for my non mother tongue english speakers. this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. so today's episode is, as i said, around the p of promotion. and as you've seen in the title, we're talking about how to make money ethically, and quickly. and for this conversation, i've invited my colleague, tad hargrave, who is a hippie who developed a knack for marketing and then learned to be a hippie again. sound familiar, the hippie story? since two thousand and one, he has been weaving together strands of ethical marketing, waldorf school education, a history in the performing arts, local culture making, anti globalization activism, an interest in his ancestral traditional cultures, community building, and supporting local economies into his work, helping people create profitable businesses that are ethically grown while restoring the beauty of the marketplace. so here's what we explore together in this conversation. what ethical quick revenue generation can look like. how can we make money quickly while staying true to our values? isn't that an oxymoron? aligning speed with integrity. how can we avoid feeling manipulative when generating quick income? real world examples. what ethical quick revenue strategies have worked for others, approaching urgency with care. how can we create some urgency without relying on high pressure tactics? and then balancing short term and long term goals. how can solopreneurs prioritize immediate wins while building long term trust? and so much more. and then if this episode leaves you craving for more of these strategies, please join us for the live workshop on december fourth, eleven am eastern time, and you can sign up for a donation at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. this is a ninety minute workshop inside our community, the humane marketing circle. it'll be very hands on. we have at least two breakout rooms and a lot of conversations. so with that and no other further blah blah, let's listen to tad. Sarah:  hi, Tad good to see you. it's lovely to hang out with you. Tad:  you too. Sarah:  so how to make money quickly and ethically, it's kind of like the and dot, dot, dot, because you're on the humane marketing podcast. right? so if i only said the first part of the sentence, people would have gone, like, i thought this was about intentional, slow building business. so, yeah. tell me. and, and ethically at the same time. Tad:  yeah. well, it's interesting because this was something that came up with my clients years ago where they would just call me in a desperate situation. rent was due, big tax bill, gone through a big breakup. their partner who'd been supporting their business for years was saying, look. you really got to make this work because i i can't keep pouring money into it. and whatever the situation was or maybe it was some goal. maybe it was just a big inspiring goal. like, oh my god. i need this much money so i can do this thing, and, you know, there's a timeline on it. so people would come to me and i would feel for them. and, yeah, so much of my marketing is this slow marketing kind of organic relationship based reputation word-of-mouth, and all of that takes time. but i realized, well, there are times in my life i had to hustle. you know, i don't i don't wanna banish hustling. there's a, you know, make make hay while the sun shines, as they say. there there is a time to just you gotta crank. you gotta work really hard for a short period of time. it's not a it's no way to live a life, but it's it is a gear that's good to have. and i just realized, you know, i'd done that in my life. and at times i really needed money. once i was thinking about it was, when i was much younger, i'd want to go to a bunch of tony robbins seminars, and they were really expensive. and i didn't have the money, and i just had to make the money, and i found a way to do it. and so i thought there are some things i know that work to to generate cash flow, as as short term tactics. and so then i started gathering those, and i reached out to my colleagues. i'm like, what are the tricks? like, if somebody just needs money tomorrow or next week, what what have you got? and almost all my colleagues had some little approach that's and they're go to and the one they give to their clients. so i started to cobble these together. and and then i ran into the, the second problem, which was that i would then offer these to the to those people, and they would, not be able to implement them because they were too maxed out. they were too desperate. they were you know, you're trying to teach somebody to swim while they're drowning, and it doesn't work very well. Sarah:  mhmm. Tad:  and so i realized that we actually needed to create space first. we need to create some room in their life so that they would actually have the capacity to, to do this. i've opened up two threads here, but i wanna just go to this one, thread. something you said earlier about, it being how can it be ethical, but also fast? Sarah:  right. Tad:  and, a woman i was dating last year, she drew this out, and i thought it was just so brilliant. and we can imagine there's this two axes. yeah. there's ethical and unethical, and there's hard and easy. and so there's a quadrant here where something is, unethical and it's hard. and i just recommend everybody stay away from that quadrant. it has no redeeming qualities. Sarah:  it's just like, why even bother? Tad:  why even bother with unethical and hard stuff? then there's stuff that's unethical and easy. and you could say it's unethical and it brings in results fast. and this is probably a lot of what's being promised in the marketing world. right. and then there's hard and ethical. there that's a real thing. it just takes time. you gotta put in the effort. you gotta do the, building, and it works. long term, it works. so you could say it's ethical and hard, ethical slow, but there's also ethical and easy and ethical and fast. that ethical is not the enemy of fast, ethical is not the enemy of easy, and i think that's an important bond to break because people get it in their mind that ethical just inherently means slow. but, you know, even the the slow food movement the slow food movement was not the banishment of fast food ever. it was the understanding that we we have a choice, that we can choose when we're gonna eat fast. because sometimes you gotta eat fast. sometimes you don't have time for the grand feast with all your friends and the companionship that you wish you did. sometimes it's just we gotta get some food on the table and get out the door. and so that has its place too, but it's the challenge is that fast food had become so dominant, and it had utterly erased. it had it had, you know, the fast food often in modern society, it's not the opposite of slow food. it's the imposite. like, it imposes itself. it's the eclipsing of the slow food movement. it so utterly decimated that culture of slow food. and so with marketing too, this fast marketing approach didn't just show up and say, we'll just be here in the corner as one of the alternatives. it sort of swarmed the marketplace and and has worked to dismantle any of this slow marketing approach. but give if you give it a seat at the table at the feast and don't let it take over the table, if it's one of the people, at the feast, it's great. you know, it's delightful company. it's a charming fast talker and, no problem. you know, welcome, but not, not when it's running the show all the time. Sarah:  yeah. i love that. and i, i really like these quadrants and this idea of, of easy, right. and, and ethical like that quadrant. another thing you talk about is this low hanging fruit. right? and to me, that really is that top, right quadrant. it's easy because it's low hanging fruit. and, and yet it's always about the, how you present it. i think because in humane marketing, while you can do air a message and, you know, use manipulative language, and it's gonna be in the unethical, quadrant. but you can share a message with empathy and kindness and just say, well, this is the solution that i have. i think it might be a good fit for you. and then it goes into the ethical quadrant. so talk to us about this low hanging fruit. like, what are some things that, maybe your peers shared or that you also discovered with your clients? what is this low hanging fruit that, you discovered? Tad:  okay. so the big picture, right, low hanging fruit is this idea that on a tree, not all of the fruit is out of reach. blessedly, thank goodness, there's some fruit that's just you could just reach up and grab it. you don't even have to stretch your hand up much. there's some delicious fruit. and it's the same with our businesses. most of our businesses have there's just remember jay abraham, he would talk about just this these windfall profits that are sitting in your business. it's just right there. and most people don't ever think about it. so one, you know, example of this is you email your list with a fifth you know, forty eight hours, seventy two hours, fifty percent off and it will bring in a bunch of stuff. it'll bring in a bunch of money. there'll be a bunch of sales that come in. and that's available. you could i mean, you don't wanna do it all the time because, boy, if you do that every week, suddenly people are like, oh, the courses are actually half of what they say, or you can just wait because next month, another sale's coming. so, again, it's not something we wanna do all the time. but if you haven't done it for a while, you could do that. or even just emailing your list with one of your best products or a product you haven't mentioned for a while, because i think we assume that our clients are just really familiar with our stuff, and they they have poured over our website, and they know all of our products. but the reality is, since they joined your email list or discovered you, you may never have mentioned this product or service or offering in your emails at all. so they may actually have no idea it's there. right. and so you could just tell them. you could just say, hey, everyone. some of you may have joined, recently and not known that i have this offering. and, here it is. you know? Sarah:  i think, again, it it all comes down to how we present it, because if we put up a sale and say last minute and you don't get it before it's gone and all this false urgency, then obviously it comes over as manipulative and, you know, not doesn't feel probably aligned with our values. but if we present it in a good way and like you just said, oh, i, you know, realize i haven't talked to you about this thing that i have and, you know, people really like it, then it's a completely different approach to to what we're selling. Tad:  yeah. and, i mean, i think this also gets to a larger conversation of of niching and filtering, being really clear who something is for and who it's not for Sarah:  mhmm. Tad:  and making sure that's clear in the marketing. so it's like, hey. i've got this product. i haven't mentioned it in a while, and i wanted to share it. and, you know, when they go to the the sales page about it, it's really clear this product could be for you if this, but it's not for you if this. so you're not not very good Sarah:  at that. yeah. like, most of your sales pages have that. yes. Tad:  it's it's, because then people are being respected, and they can feel like, oh, this person isn't just out for the money. they're really trying to make sure that i don't buy this if it's not a fit. mhmm. and, you know, if you're gonna do one of these offers, it's often good to say why so, you know, once a year, i'll do fifty percent off on my birthday. it's just, hey. it's my birthday. this is my thanks for sticking around. here's the seventy two hour sale. or you could be very honest and you could say, look, i've got a financial goal i'm trying to reach. i'm not quite there. and so i figured my problem is your opportunity. here's here's the sale. here's the terms of it. here's how long it lasts. and that's fine. there's nothing unethical about that. i think where it gets unethical is, one, yeah, creating a scarcity where there just is none for no reason. you know? like, there's only fifty of these ebooks available. and this is what? and and now you could do there's only fifty ebooks available because you could say, look. this is my first draft of this ebook, and i want some feedback. so, i'm selling it, you know, advanced to fifty people, and the deal is the catch is i would like your honest feedback on it. what do you think so i can improve it? that's a real reason to limit it. but, when it's a contrived trumped up urgency plus, it's, yes, this language of hype. there's a lot of exclamation marks. there's a lot of all caps, a lot of underlined, and there's an implication that if you don't buy this, you will die a wretched failure. when there's that kind of shaming, in it, then, yeah, of course, this is this is no bueno. this doesn't, this doesn't work. or or worse worse, it does work. and people buy who shouldn't have bought. and then you get drama later when they ask for a refund and they get disappointment, you know that they got burned again, and i think people are so tired of being burned, but. the just because it's a fast result doesn't mean it's unethical, doesn't mean anyone's gonna get burned. as long as we've done the niching work, the the thinking it through, to make sure that only the right people would buy, then everything's golden in my mind. Sarah:  yeah. and and i really like that you're highlighting that point. because, again, if you have that on the sales page already, you know, this is for you. if this is not for you, if and then maybe also bringing into the email. and then that whole transparency, why is she hosting a sale? you know, does she need, you know, to pay rent and and doesn't have enough like, just that transparency, it it really puts us at the same level, where otherwise, when it comes from this guru marketer, it always feels like, well, they're manipulating me, and so they're just talking down to me. where if i go in with transparency, then it feels like, oh, this this is just two humans talking and, you know, yes, i did develop this thing that i i think is you're really useful to you, then it's a complete different energy that that comes in. so, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. now, as you were talking in in the intro, you talked about space. and and and i was also thinking, okay, so this these quick sales probably really work well with digital products, right? courses, things like that. but not everybody has that. so coaches who just work one on one with clients, yes, they can put out a sale, but that requires that they have that kind of spaciousness. hence, you know, going back to the starting point and saying, yeah, you need to create that space first. so how do you how do you do that? or what do you see coming up as challenges for people? Tad:  well, most of us are doing too much is one thing. mhmm. and most of it i i think we gotta start with the physical space. i think, you know, marie kondo has has a lot of wisdom mhmm. that if you're if you're in a panic about money i mean, whether it's inspiration or desperation, but you need money fast, it's this is so counterintuitive, but the very first thing that i think people need to do is tidy their home. you know, it it take a day and just go nuts. take out the garbages. you know? get some of those clothes you're not wearing anymore to the thrift store consignment shop. clean out your fridge, clean off all your desks, clean your room, all those things. because at the end of it, you, the environment always wins is what i found. if the environment is cluttered, your mind will be cluttered, and it makes it almost impossible to deal with any crisis that you're in. so the very first thing, you know, we we tidy our physical space and this gives us this energy, this is that we're all familiar with, when you clean your space and you get up at like three am just to look at the living room again because it looks so good. and it's hard to sleep actually after you do that because of all the energy you get back in that clutter is energy. and it's our energy being stored, externalized, and when we get rid of it, we we get the energy back. and and there's a pride because i think also sometimes when people are in a desperate situation, there's a lot of shame that comes. like, i shouldn't be here. how come i'm here again? so when we do this, we we we feel proud. we get this energy. we feel good about ourselves, and it kind of clears the decks for us to then take action. and then the second thing is there's a real need to look at other ways our we're being crowded. so some of that is in our calendar, and we just have to look through our calendar and say, okay. what's in there that i don't actually wanna do that i'm sort of half hearted about? that's a commitment i just i wish i hadn't made. and then ethically, as much as possible, we just get ourselves out of those commitments. and for a while, you know, thirty days, ninety days, you just have to clear the decks. you just have to remove anything that isn't really, isn't really a priority. and sometimes making money is a priority. sometimes it's just okay. some hospital bills came in. some unexpected expense my laptop died. i had to get a new lap whatever it is. and money just has to be a priority for a while. i mean, this is the big secret. if you wanna make more money, the number one bottom line secret is you you have to make it a priority. and i think when, you know, as ethical, humane, conscious leaning folks, it it it almost feels like a a terrible thought. how could you prioritize money? but, you know, money is a stand in for the material things often we buy. so it's like there's times where, oh, we need food. you go into the food stores, your pantry, and i don't know, an animal got in and a lot of it spoiled. well, you need food because you gotta feed your family, and there's nothing unethical about that. it's very ethical to make sure your family is well provisioned. you know, there's a, some kid with a slingshot breaks your window, and it's the middle of winter. well, nothing matters more than fixing that window because otherwise your pipes are gonna freeze. so handling the material concerns is is not separate from ethics in my mind. and, but, yeah, we need to have that space so we can focus on it. because if if we're trying to handle these kinds of crises or urgencies given the current volume of stuff that's going on in our life, we can't one of the exercise i do in the meantime is a let's see. is this so, you know, i i i have them get an elastic band. and so i got the elastic, and i said, no. i want you to stretch it as far as you can. like, stretch to the point where it's gonna break if i pull it okay. there it is. if i pull this just a bit more, it's gonna snap. and then i look at them and i say and the and most of them have one in their hand. i say, you feel that tension? that's you right now. that's you. you are about to snap. so then if on top of this, you wanna pull harder, you're just gonna break. and that does nobody any good. so the secret is, you know, we've got to kinda bring it a little closer together, give it some slack so that it can do some other work. and but that can be other things. sometimes there's, apologies we need to give. like, oh, i'm actually the the my emotional world is crowded up because i know i'm out of integrity. i need to say sorry to somebody, or we need to set a boundary with somebody. somebody's overstepping our bound you know, that can be a way we create space. it might be removing all of the apps from our phone, the social media apps, our email from our phone for a time, and setting certain boundaries around that, like, okay. i'm not taking my phone into my room when i go to bed. do i just stay up all night scrolling? that can create more space. i mean, if you took your social media off your phone or went on a social media fast, let's say for ninety days, you just put up, say, hey, everybody. i'm not responding to any social media messages for the next ninety days while i focus on handling business. most of us would free up four or five hours a day when you look at the stats and how much we're on our phones. so if if you can free up the time and space and have that physical space, it's it's an automatic game changer. and then if you can have some tactics that you know work to generate cash flow, that are sort of proven commodities, then, yeah, you can start to bring in some money, very, very quickly. Sarah:  i see these two energies. one is like this crazy spinning. i need money now. super anxious. right? and it's like, oh my god. oh my god. and, unfortunately, i think the marketing messages that we might receive where we go, god, that felt really manipulative and almost shaming that comes from that kind of energy. it's like, i need more now. and, you know, yes, i probably have a full calendar already. and then i see the other grounded energy with lots of spaciousness and yeah, decluttered. right. and, and yet the understanding we do need money in this world right now. and i have already worked on my life's work. i have created things that are useful. and right now, i'm just going to focus on, you know, selling them a bit more than i usually do. because, yeah, i have this need, right now. and like you said, there was not there's nothing unethical. Tad:  and we can we can be so honest about and Sarah:  i think what Tad:  yeah. i was gonna say we can be so honest about look. it's a really tight time. here's what's going on on our family. we need some money, and so here's a sale. the thing i would caution against, though, is there i think there's a three strikes in your out rule. i have seen this with a number of local businesses. and maybe, you know, you and people listening can identify with this, where there's a business in town. they're a cool ethical restaurant, grocery store, shop. everybody loves them. everybody loves the owner. everybody knows they're just doing the right thing, but their business sense maybe isn't the best. and so then at a certain point, they put out the call and they say, we need the community come together and support us. please come and shop. you know, we're not gonna be able to pay rent. and the community rallies, and it's one of the most beautiful things. and you see everybody showing up, and it's a real festive atmosphere, and everybody's so happy to support this business. then that's strike one. strike two. six months later, they're in the same place. and it is half or a quarter of the response. the third time, six months later, a year later this happens, it's it's crickets. mhmm. so it's this is not stuff you wanna do often. and, you know, while you're creating that space and hustling, it's really critical to also be looking at how did i end up here? what foundations were missing that delivered me to this state? now sometimes it's just life circumstance, and it's not something you need to be scared will repeat. but it could also be an indication you haven't set up your life with enough bandwidth to deal with the inevitabilities of life. right. you've got nothing in savings. you've got no extra time in your life. and i've seen this with people where, again, i think most people can probably identify somebody specifically, and it might even be, you know, yourselves listening to this. there are people in communities who sort of carry the community. they're the ones who host all the events, they're the ones who are leading the fundraisers, and they seem to take everything on their shoulders. and often, this is done, though, from a collapsed place, from a, like, my needs don't matter, but the world's needs do. and they give and they give and they give, and they eventually snap. and they snap at people, and they can end up, you know, very lonely because there's so much resentment and bitterness in them that nobody else is helping, but they actually haven't slowed down enough to allow people to help them. so it's it's so important that we're also working on the foundations. you know? i i know you have your own your model, and i've got mine around what we think those foundations are. but if those things aren't in place, boy, there's no these fast cash tactics are not the fix Sarah:  no. yeah. Tad:  at all. they're, they're, a stopgap. they're triage medicine, but we need to get the foundations in place. Sarah:  i think what they do and, i think it's very smart of you. i think they create awareness, you know, is like, oh, you got my attention. right. it's a topic where it's like, oh, you got my attention. and then you come up, come in with the spaciousness and people are like, what? ah, okay. so this is yeah. we're working on the short term strategies while also creating the foundation for the long term strategies, which is yeah. it's brilliant. Tad:  which is yeah. which is worth people thinking about in their own businesses is because i know all of us, we wanna help people, like, really solve the thing. and so often in our marketing, we're speaking to these much deeper things than people are even thinking about. one example of this that i love is a guy from the netherlands, hovart van ginkel, who's a, nonviolent communication, consultant. and he got brought into a school, and the school, the dynamic was the teachers had a very aggressive, sort of violent, not pleasant communication style. but this is the challenge. he can't go in with a nonviolent communication class to people who've never heard of nonviolent communication who don't think they're violent communicators. so instead, they did the i thought it was one of the most brilliant moves. they said, it's a workshop on how to deal with difficult parents. now in that workshop, of course, it was also revealed to them that perhaps they had their own, difficulties, you know, they had their own struggles and but they they led with something that was an actual urgent thing from the side of the client. so it's worth thinking about, is there something with your clients that maybe you've said, no. that means they're not a fit. i'm gonna turn them away because that's too urgent or it's too, surface or that's not what i wanna work with. that you know, another example of this was, another nonviolent communication, woman. she's a client now. and she's come up with a a workshop on screen time agreements that stick, i think it's called. and so for parents, i mean, do they wanna go deep, deep, deep into the depths of nonviolent communication and all this? yeah. some, but most don't. but a lot of parents are interested in screen time agreements. and then if she can say, look, this is actually one of the biggest sources of conflict, and speaking of conflict, here's some other thoughts on conflict. or bradley morris, my colleague, he did a he had a workshop where he got off eight years ago, he got off social media entirely. he was sitting up on a hill on salt spring island looking at the sunset, and his initial immediate thought was this would make a great social media post. and he just realized, oh my god. the machine has hacked my brain. yeah. i'm looking at the world through its eyes now of the algorithm. so he went home and said, celeste, his wife said, i'm getting off social media. he got off. and he so he created a webinar about this called how to market without social media. and he, put that out. i hosted him and we had, like, a thousand people sign up, but we had to get our friend's zoom account because i just couldn't handle that many people. and i said, bradley, you got to do this over and over again. but again, this was, what he wants to talk about is this partnership marketing, this long term relationship building thing, but the the thing that people are feeling Sarah:  more yeah. it's a classical, sell them what they want and then give them what they need. right? that's that's the thing. and then it's yeah. we keep doing like, even myself, like, keep doing it wrong because we're like, oh, this is this genius concept. and and people are like, they don't want a concept. they just wanna solve their their immediate problem. Tad:  yeah. and once and then once we have their attention with the immediate problem, we can then open the door and say, here's what that's really about. here's what's really going on. so, yeah, if you're struggling in your business and it's a recurring thing and marketing is just feeling terrible for you and business feels awful, and you're not making money, you're not getting enough clients, you might just think it's about this, but it's actually got these five or six other pieces that you're not even thinking about. and if we can get in front of them and make that case, that's great. you know? but it's to me, it connects because it's those kinds of offers more likely to get a quick response from people. you know, they're more likely to generate cash flow quickly rather than the, you know, come and learn my deep philosophy on life and business or or whatever it is. yeah. and yeah. so it's i was gonna say the key is you gotta if you sell them what they want, you actually have to deliver on that because otherwise it's a bait and switch. this is the unethical move is come to my workshop and learn fast cash tactics, and when they arrive, it's like, how couldn't you be thinking about fast cash you on ethical pieces? Sarah:  so let's talk about this workshop because that was gonna be my next question. right? it's like, well, so so so because we are hosting a workshop together where you're gonna be speaking about how to make money quickly and ethically. and, yes, you'll address the space and spaciousness. but then, yeah, tell us what what else you'll cover in that workshop. Tad:  we're gonna be going into ten different, tactics. ten of my i think there's thirty six that i've gathered over the years, but just due to time, i think we'll get into ten of them. and these are ten of my favorite tactics that just work, that my colleagues use, that they give to their clients, that i've used self, that i passed on to clients, and that people have generated, lots of money real quickly. so, and i'm not talking tens of thousands necessarily, but, you know, a few hundred here, a few thousand there, getting i Sarah:  think it always depends on the kind of business you have and what kind of offerings you have. that's that's another ethical thing, right? it's like, well, if you're promising thousands of dollars and yet all i'm selling is, you know, ebooks, then obviously i'm not going to be able to make that kind of money. but it depends. yeah. Tad:  yeah. yeah. so that's what we're going to get into is some of my favorite, my my top ten, tactics that i think, most people would take and probably just use for a lot of people, they could use it tomorrow, and it would bring in money tomorrow, or within a week or so. you know, this is not stuff that needs enormous setting up now. of course, the clearer your niche is, the clearer your point of view is, the better set up your offers are, the better these things work. but they still work, you know, in the short term anyways. Sarah:  mhmm. yeah. well, i can't wait. Tad:  so i'm excited too. Sarah:  please, if you're listening to this as always, you know how these collab workshops work. it's, this time is tad and i. i'm hosting. tad is the one speaking. we're going into breakout rooms. it's real intimate and you get to really, you know, roll back your sleeves and and work on something. it's not just a a webinar where tad is talking for ninety minutes, but we really get into things. so and obviously from that ethical, humane point of view. so, i think it's gonna be real good. so if you're excited as well, sign up at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and we'll see on december fourth. i can't wait to continue this conversation with you, ted. thank you. amazing. Tad:  wonderful. thanks for having me. Sarah:  thank you. Speaker 2:  i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and see how you can do marketing in a ethical and humane way even to generate some quick money. we'd love to see you on december fourth for the make money quickly and ethically workshop. again, it's a ninety minute really hands on workshop inside our community. you can sign up now for a donation at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. and otherwise, tad also has a free starter kit with many resources at marketing for hippies dot com forward slash starter dash kit. and if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not become a member of the humane marketing circle? you get access to these collab workshops for free, and we also meet once per month in a member meetup that is organized by our members. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. and you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash h m two hundred. just realized that this is the two hundredth episode. so humane dot marketing forward slash h m two zero zero. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. and soon, very soon, beginning of next year, you'll be also finding, business like we're human there. i'm finalizing everything right now. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.

In this episode, I'm joined by Avital Spivak, an online tech coach and certified business manager, to discuss how heart-centered entrepreneurs can overcome tech overwhelm and use tools to boost efficiency. Avital shares her expertise on aligning technology with your business values, building a solid tech foundation, and approaching tools as trusted partners that enhance, rather than complicate, your work. Whether you're tech-savvy or tech-shy, this conversation will empower you to confidently choose and manage tools that free up time and create space for being more human in your business. What we covered in this episode: How technology can serve human needs rather than the other way around. Ensuring that we're building a solid foundation of our business tools before adding new technology. Evaluating new tools that align with our business paradigm and values. Approaching tools as if they were team members, ensuring they complement and enhance our work. Strategies for overcoming tech overwhelm by starting small and focusing on what's needed. Choosing the right person to help with tech. A sneak preview of the Collab Workshop on November 6th -- Overcome Tech Overwhelm & Boost Efficiency Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing. Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode of the humane marketing. podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership. We're partnering with technology and tools, and I'm speaking to Avital Spivak. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the [00:03:00] Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps of Marketing at Humane. marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page. And just a reminder that humane is with an E at the end. That's not always obvious for non English speakers. So it's not human marketing, but humane. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you P's for your business. I'll tell you more about Avital in a minute, but first allow me to plug my awesome business book alchemist program, which starts on November 14th, one more time. So this is a program for what I call a renegade authors. So authors want to be authors who are writing a book for the message, for the change, and not only to call themselves bestselling authors. So, in these eight weeks together, [00:04:00] we'll refine your big message, get clear on your ideal reader, build a solid outline for your book, and then also create a marketing plan for it. So, it starts on November 14th. It lasts officially for eight weeks, and I'm saying officially because with last year's participants, we're still meeting monthly in the BBA book lab to hold each other accountable with our writing, and one of the members already submitted A chapter to a multi author book and it's just been published and she keeps writing now her own book as well, which is amazing. The program comes with an evergreen video course portion and extensive workbook to help you reflect and work on your book as well as Eight live calls in which we go deeper into the content and start planning and working on our books. And after these eight weeks together, you also have [00:05:00] the opportunity, if you want to, to join that BBA book collab where we meet monthly because it really helps to have that accountability and community to hold each other accountable as well. So if that speaks to you, if you know deep down. You have a book inside of you, and let me tell you, it's never the right time to write a book. Just kind of like, it's never the right time to have a child. Maybe now is the time. So check out the details at humane. marketing forward slash BBA. And let's talk. Book a call to talk to me about whether this is a good fit for you. I'd love to hear about your book idea. Okay, so back to today's episode. Avital Spivak is an online tech coach, certified online business manager, and computer engineer. For 15 plus years, she has been breaking the myth [00:06:00] that people who did not grow up with technology cannot get comfortable with it at any age. She's a martial artist, multilingual, and enjoys helping clients from everywhere around the world get unstuck with tech so they can grow their business with confidence. What we covered in our conversation, how technology can serve human needs rather than the other way around. Ensuring that we're building a solid foundation of our business tools before adding new technology, evaluating new tools that align with our business paradigm and values, approaching tools as if they were team members, ensuring they complement enhance and enhance our work. Strategies for overcoming tech overwhelm by starting small and focusing on what's needed. Choosing the right person to help with tech. And then also a sneak preview of the collab workshop on November 6th. [00:07:00] That's right. On November 6th, Avital comes into our community, the Humane Marketing Circle, and will help us in a 90 minute hands on workshop to get more familiar. And get more used to tech and also kind of build that foundation and map it out according to our needs. So if you want to join us after listening to this episode, please go to humane. marketing. com forward slash workshop. And you can join us for a small donation inside our community. All right, let's do it. Here's Avital and I talking about tools. Enjoy. Hi, Abital, so good to have you on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Welcome. Welcome. Hey, Sarah. Great to be here. Thanks for welcoming me. Thank you. All right. Tools and technology. That's our topic today. One of my favorite topics, actually, I, [00:08:00] I'm a big tech fan and AI and people kind of always Find that interesting because I'm, as you know, I'm talking all about human and being human and being humane. But I really feel like they go together and we can discover or kind of dive deeper into that later in the conversation. But I want to start with you and this topic of. Yeah. Technology. What, what brought you, like, what made you focus in on that topic? That's my first question. And then why is that such a struggle for so many entrepreneurs? So two questions for you. So what brought me here is many years as a software engineer and a team leader. So I've been in the tech space for many, many years. But also I've been an [00:09:00] educator even longer than I've been an engineer. I've always liked having people ask me questions and, and come back with something for them to get them unstuck and into the next step. It's been a lifelong since I think I remember myself in the third grade already helping. other kids in my class with their problem with their mom and the problem with homework and their problem. So it's always been there. Every team that I've been on, I became the person who onboards people and et cetera, and shows them what to do. So both of these came together as an entrepreneur. To help solopreneurs with their technology. For me, and it's interesting that you said that your interests are in tech and people, because for me, this comes together because the technology is here to serve us. It's not separate than the human. [00:10:00] And I think a lot of tech troubles, to go into your second question, a lot of tech trouble comes from ill fitting matches. So when we forget the human part of the equation and we focus, let's have the tech that can do that thing. Wait a minute, there's a human in the equation. If we don't fit the text to the human, it's not going to work. Yeah. That's why you're here on this podcast. I could get, I knew you know, when Sophie Leschner introduced us, I'm like, yeah, there's gotta be a good fit here because obviously there's, there's. A lot of tech gurus out there. But you're right. It's the technology that needs to go together with the human being and being able to adapt and adopt the, this technology and fit them into our humanness. [00:11:00] That's the, that's the key really to, to making these things work for you. Right. I think that's a, a big part of what you're saying is also like. Make sure you choose the tools that work for you and not just because someone recommended a new shiny object that you have to now also use that thing as well. Very true. And really tools have been an extension of humans for many, many, many years. We can go back, you know, to using stones to carve things. But I like to do my, another passion of mine is martial arts, Chinese martial arts. So I would say that the sword is an extension of the person you have to, the sword doesn't work by itself. And for it to work well for you, you need to hone it, you know, like to hone your skills to, to, to. [00:12:00] Get the tool in good shape to get yourself in a good shape to become a team and work together. If you don't become one with your sword and the sword doesn't fit you, you know, it's not useful at all. Right. So, so the tools are an extension of ours. They come to serve our needs. And for that to work, we need to give them, you know, we need to be good team members. We need to give them what they need in order to serve best. Right. Maybe this, for someone who's completely opposed to, or even kind of scared of technology, that may sound a little abstract, right? So let's, let's give them some specific. examples, like for you, when you talk about tools for solopreneurs, give us one or two examples of these tools, and then I can share some of the tools that I use as [00:13:00] well. So I'm not going to go with a specific tech tool, but I am going to go with the computer. As a tool, so we use the computer as part of our tool, right? But if we don't know how to wrangle the windows to do what we want, if we don't know how to respond. So I'll jump into a different piece a little bit because I speak about a lot about computer land. This is me as a human being entering computer land and it's somewhere where there's the culture is different. The language is different. Part of that, to give the specific example you're looking for is that I interact with computer land on a flat screen. Everything goes. Starts with the eyes. So if my tools want to [00:14:00] talk to me, they have to put something on the screen that I can see. And we've all seen those, you know, little boxes that come up, right in front of your work, and ask you something. And our first instinct is to just, you know, go away. Click, click, click, click, click, go away. But if we remember that that's the only way that our tools have to speak with us, then we might start paying attention. Here's another source of problems is we send away the messages to tell us there is a problem. You need to do something about this. Here's a guide of, you know, here's your next best step. There's a lot of conversation going on. If we ignore it. we get into trouble. So specifically, I help people start paying attention to those. And really, [00:15:00] it's not that you need to read each one, because like walking down the street, you don't talk to everybody that comes and asks you a question or tell you something, etc. You make a decision. Is that a person that's relevant, and they need to listen to what they say and respond? Or is that somebody that. I need to ignore. So when that thing pops, the first thing is not to read or to make it go away. The first thing is, where did that come from? Who's talking to me? That, that, yeah, that really makes me laugh because I. Probably 9 out of 10 times, I'm the person who closes those things, right? Because, and I tell you why, Avital, because they. They're not using a very human language, like they're speaking to me as if I was another piece of technology. So I think message to, you know, whoever humans are programming this technology is to [00:16:00] use a more human language in those messages as well. Because then we can actually communicate, but, but right now all these messages feel like, I have no idea what you're saying. Sounds bad. So I'm going to close it. But I agree. And that's you who are passionate about technology and likes using those things, right? And you close nine out of 10 without reading, right? So it's definitely a very common thing. What I do with my clients is I tell them, take a picture, send it to me. I'll tell you what they're saying. And what happens is Those things stopped coming because a lot of them come back and back and back because we haven't responded, right? So what do you do when you know, if I have a team member, they're trying to tell me something and I'm not responding Hopefully they'll try again and again and again, right? So when we respond a lot of time those things go away Right. If we don't respond, they pile up and then you have things [00:17:00] taking your screen space, taking it away from your work, distracting you. What I was more thinking of is, is tools like, you know, zoom, for example, that we're recording our podcast with, or technology like my mic that I need to know how to, you know the levels of the, of the microphone so that the sound is, is, is good. All of these other technology tools that again, help us to be more human with, you know, someone across the ocean that I can now talk to where before or. You know, for someone who doesn't know how to use these tools, it becomes difficult. Other tools that solopreneurs probably often need to learn how to use it are like email providers even just the Google suite and all of these technology things that we're using all the [00:18:00] time. And even if. We are not, if we're choosing not to use them in our own business, the minute we collaborate with other people, we're often confronted with having to use them. I see that in one of the volunteering teams I'm in right now. And it's a challenge because it's like, Oh, I just took it for granted that everybody knows how to use this. But. Obviously that's not the case. So yeah, tools are everywhere. So here are, here are my top things. So first is the computer. You have to learn to talk to it. Then we have the browser, how to use the internet well with tabs and bookmarks and not lose your space and not be afraid to search and all that. Then we have zoom to collaborate and communicate. Then we have files. Where do we put our files or storage? Where is everything? How do I find it again? And like you say, when [00:19:00] collaborating with others, then suddenly we have Google Docs. And there's a lot of people who, you know, you put the link to a doc and that's very common way to share information and, and collaborate in writing. And there are people who are very uncomfortable with that. So I create tools like little courses and things like that. One of my courses is navigating Google land. So that people can collaborate easily, but, you know, actually learn to do it because it, it's very challenging to get started when you don't have the basic blocks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even people who are versed and know things, they might be missing some of the basic blocks without knowing it because they find all sorts of workarounds. [00:20:00] But it creates inefficiencies and it creates a little level of, I'm not sure if next time I'll be able to do this. And it really makes the daily life hard. I see what you're doing. And I, I feel myself feeling a little bit impatient because I'm like, Oh, but I thought we're going to be talking about, you know, these techie tools, but I see completely what you're doing. And you're like, well, we have to build the house. We have to build the foundation with. If, yeah, with how to, yeah, have a filing system, maybe on your computer files, but also in your email file, email organizing, all of these things that are, it's true. It's part of the foundation. Why would you want to use something very techie if you don't have that foundation yet? Right. So, so that leads me to the, another question. So, so [00:21:00] then. Okay. We were building this house with the foundation. And yet we're healing, hearing from everywhere. Well, you should be using this tool now and this app and this, this other shiny thing. So once we have that foundation in place, how do we then make decisions about what to add to our foundation of the house? If we continue with that analogy. Yeah. Excellent. This is the next place, right? So so at this point, once we have, we made sure that the foundation is solid, then we want to start from the human and the company. What are my needs? What is it that I need to do? Because if I just start listening to everybody that tells me you need this, you need this, solopreneurs need this. I use that. We get lost and we might start trying things and get into trouble. Right. Many [00:22:00] of us know enough to get ourselves tangled and the way to decide and I have a tool for that, which I can talk about in the workshop, right? Exactly. We'll talk about in the workshop that helps you map your needs to your tools. Okay. Because that's really the way I approach this is looking at my tools as a team. So I need a team to help me with my business needs. And what are my business needs? We don't go out and start taking people because somebody said, Hey, this guy's great to work with. Okay. Let me employ them. We don't go about building our human team like that. It's like, what do I need a person with? Is that person? Okay. So they're great to work with. Do they fit me? There's an interview process. There's a, you, you want to know who you're bringing in rather than try and bring all sorts of things because they might be able to help.[00:23:00] There's a cost, even if it's not in money, there's a cost in adding just anybody and everybody to the team. Even for a trial period. It disrupts something. And when, when I tell people to start thinking about anything they know about team building, because all of us that are, let's say above, let's go with 30, all of us older than 30 have seen some teamwork somewhere. And even if they didn't build the team, they were part of teams and they know what works and what doesn't work. We all have experience. Let's use this experience to build our tech team. And when we start thinking of Our tools as what actually serves the need it starts being a good fit and it starts being something you can use. So that's where I start. I start with, let's say what what [00:24:00] your needs are. And now let's interview the tools that everybody's recommending according to that. I love that. That is so aligned with everything we, we stand for it, humane business and humane marketing, because it, you know, humane marketing also starts with ourselves, like, who are we, what's our story, what's our values, what's our worldview, and then how do I bring that to my marketing, to my business so that it reflects. And resonates with the right kind of people so that they feel attracted by who I am. And so you're telling me now, and this is so beautiful that we're going to listen to ourselves first again to our needs our business model, because all of our business models are going to be different. And, and then from that place, [00:25:00] look at the tools that are out there and available and see well, which one fits just because everybody's using MailChimp doesn't mean that I have to now use MailChimp and, and use, you know, even have an email list. Maybe I don't want to have an email list. So yeah, looking at my needs and my business needs first, I like that a lot. I'll give you a specific example. Many people use a. Tools that are different ones, but tools that would post things for you in social media. Right. And maybe you give them kind of the same post, go ahead, schedule it and post it everywhere, but. And that sounds efficient and sounds helpful and it feels good, you know, this tool is going to post for me. I don't have to spend my time there. But when we're thinking about the other side, which is in part humane marketing or in part [00:26:00] what, how is the tool fitting my values, depending on my values and how I see talking to people, LinkedIn has a very different style and vibe and environment for conversation than in Facebook, for example. And Facebook is different than Instagram and they're all have a different environment, right? So sometimes posting the same thing to all of them wouldn't necessarily make sense and, and using a tool that would do it for you rather than I like part of my value is the conversation and the relationships that I create with the people that I serve. And when I'm posting on LinkedIn, I'm there to respond to comments and I'm there to respond. And I don't use my VA to respond to comments because I want to respond in my voice and the way that. You know, depending [00:27:00] on people's questions and comments, I want to respond. It's an extension of the post and that's the conversation. Right. At the same time, I have my VA post things like reminders and all sorts of things that are, I've written in my voice, but it needs the extension. Then I can use an automation or a person or anything to, you know, for wider reach. Right. Yeah. So I don't know if that makes sense, but for example, choosing a tool to do the automation of posting or not. would depend on how I see what I want to do on social media. Yeah. Yeah. And I was thinking like even further, like if we look at our values first, which is this inner work, right? And then we look, we figure out our needs and then we find. Let's say two different tools. One is kind of the traditional [00:28:00] tool to just make money or profit oriented. And one is a tool with great ethics. It, you know, plants, like I'm thinking of a browser, for example, can remember the exact name I'll look it up, but it plants trees for whenever you use it. You know, and if my values are kind of in alignment with that, then, well, it's a no brainer. Of course, I want to plant trees while I'm browsing, right? And there's other implications that our values kind of dictate. It's like, well, I don't want to use a tool. For example a criteria could be that immediately. Makes people take out their credit card for a free trial. I've noticed myself, it's very hard to actually find a tool that kind of is already sinking in this new paradigm, new [00:29:00] business, like we're human orientation. But eventually if enough people give that kind of feedback back to the developers, I'll. I'm hoping that there will be new tools out there that are also aligned with ethical behavior, et cetera, et cetera. So, so it becomes even more important. Yeah. I check usually who owns the company. I like, you know, it's a combination really, but if the company is not well behaved according to values that are, you know, close to me, I, I don't want to use it. Exactly. Yeah. So that's important. Yeah. Yeah. And I like, you know, there's also external measures like B Corp. I don't know if you're familiar with big corporations. Yes. So that those. Those are helpful to make a decision, right? Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Any kind of [00:30:00] label that immediately tells you, okay, my values are aligned. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So what would you say for someone who's listening and who is now, you Or has been in complete tech overwhelm. What are kind of the first steps you advise clients to think about when they're in tech overwhelm on how to simplify their use of tech? I say a few things, but the first thing I would say is disconnect for the tech for a moment. And realign yourself with yourself. Think of why did you get into the tech for the, in the first place? What is it that you wanted it to do for you? And then start from there. So what do I want it to do? Do I already have something that can do it just kind of like start small [00:31:00] and there's nothing wrong with starting with paper calendar and you know, whatever you need to do to run your business. And just take things slowly. And because tools, you know, tools are only as good as how you use them. So even if you take a tool that can do a thousand things, maybe you just need two things from it. Just learn to do those two things. You don't need the whole thing. So don't go there. So I would say that's even before you try and find somebody to work with. Because in the tech overwhelm, just pull back. You don't need all that avalanches too much. We have marketing, we have more food available to many of us, unfortunately, some not, but many of us that [00:32:00] are talking now about owning a business, et cetera, we have way more food offers than we ever could use or consume. And it's an overwhelm, right? But we've been training for many years to bring in only what we need or mostly what we need, et cetera. It's the same similar skill. It's an avalanche. You don't need to listen to every commercial, every recommendation, every listen to your needs. 1st, 2nd thing I want to say, and that's really important. For people who are uncomfortable with technology or, you know, comfortable, but got into trouble, we need some help trying to fix. Your knowledge or your ability or whatever by yourself, it's sometimes very challenging and time consuming. You might get a shortcut by working with somebody. [00:33:00] Be very, very choosy who you work with, who you get to do, do it for you, because we want to kind of like, okay, you do it. Be very careful because they don't know your business. Like you doesn't start with it. It starts with you, your business, what you need. And. Ask for help only from kind people. I know that sounds maybe weird in a business conversation, but the first year, exactly. The person you deal with is more important. Well, not more in the sense of, but if you have two people to ask, go with the person that you're aligned with, that. Kind that is not judgmental or blaming in any way about what you're doing and what you're thinking and what you know and don't know, because this is. [00:34:00] Challenging enough without adding somebody being a bully around you and tech doesn't need bullies. Unfortunately there's, there are some, so just don't choose to work with them. Thank you. Yeah. Before we wrapped this up, I'd like you to give us a sneak preview of what we'll be working on during our CoLab workshop because we have this chance to have you in our community, the Humane Marketing Circle, and we'll do a 90 minute roll your sleeves back kind of hands on workshop with you, which I'm very excited about. So tell us a little bit what we're going to be doing there. Okay. So we're actually going to be doing the things we spoke about before here today. And we're going to, I'm introducing a map, which is a tool that we can use. And [00:35:00] this map will help us match our existing tools to our existing needs and see where the gaps are, where there's duplicates, where, how things work and that don't work, and that goes a long way to bring that. Tech overwhelm and the mess in our head, first of all, into a visual form. And then we can start making decisions and evaluate. And what's fun in the workshop is that we also help each other see. So sometimes we put things on the map. It's so close to home that we don't even see what's visible to everybody else there. So it's kind of fun to do this together and to start learning a little bit. About our own system and where we can simplify. Yeah, I, I, like I told you in the beginning of this conversation, I love tech and I use a lot, but I've never, you know, [00:36:00] mapped it out. So I'm personally super excited about that. And, and for me, it's probably going to be more about simplifying. So maybe getting rid of some of the tools or, or combining them rather than adding more tools. But who knows, I'm, I'm looking forward to it. And, and like you said, it's very much about the human conversations as well as, as for all our collab workshops. But I think especially for the, this one, so that we can counterbalance the, the tech and the mental in essence, so. So yeah, this, this workshop is on November 6th, so please join us there in our community for a little donation. You can join us and the link is humane. marketing forward slash workshop. Cannot wait. Avital, you also have a freebie on your website, so please do mention where people can find you. Tell us a little bit about your freebie and Yeah. Anything [00:37:00] else you'd like to share? Excellent. So my website is vitalweave. com and when you go there, you can find a freebie right there on the bottom, including some details, but what it is, is my best three tips that are non techie that will check, change your tech life. Starting today, and they seem very simple and almost like, why is she telling this to us? But these tapes were curated from my clients who come back two years later, three years later, and say, you know, the most valuable thing that you taught me is that's where I got those three So they're misleadingly simple. I love that. That's great. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being with me today to talk about [00:38:00] tools and tech and looking forward to this workshop on November 6th. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you, Avital. Thank you, Snara. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Please find out more about Avital and her work at vitalweave. com. Or even better, join us for the 90 minute hands on workshop on November 6th. You can sign up at humane. marketing forward slash workshop with a small donation because you're going to be inside the Humane Marketing Circle community. By the way, if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle community? You get access to all of these collab workshops once per month for free, as well as all the past workshops that are in the recording library, as well as another [00:39:00] monthly call where we connect with the community members and As of two months ago, I think the community calls are actually community led, so they're led by a member of the community, and they're also topics that came from the community, so they're all having to do with business building and marketing and selling. But all according Oh, Oh, Oh, values. So again, find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 9 9. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. The Humane Business Manifesto and the Free Gentle Confidence Mini Course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. you so much for listening and being part of a generation of [00:40:00] marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak [00:41:00] [00:42:00] [00:43:00] [00:44:00] [00:45:00] [00:46:00] [00:47:00] soon.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, Sarah speaks with Marc Winn about how AI and automation can enhance human interactions and support meaningful connections when used with the right intentions. They explore the impact of AI on marketing and the workforce, reflecting on how businesses can shift from manipulation to empowerment. Together, they discuss the ethical implications of AI, the role of marketers in creating positive and healing stories, and how heart-centered entrepreneurs can embrace technology to build community, foster trust, and stay present amidst rapid change. This episode is a thoughtful guide for those looking to partner with AI in a human(e) way. Here's what they talked about in today's episode: How AI and automation can enhance human interactions and marketing, and the importance of using these technologies with the right intentions to support meaningful connections. The impact of social media, AI, and automation on the workforce, questioning the future of employment and the potential for a reevaluation of what we sell and how we find meaning in our work. The ethical implications of AI, particularly in marketing, and the need to shift from manipulating people's subconscious drivers to empowering them. The role of marketers in creating positive, hopeful stories that inspire deep connection and trust, viewing marketing as a form of healing. The concept of mutual exchange in business and how businesses can foster connection and community while leveraging technology like AI. How businesses and individuals can build optimism and focus on creating something better amidst the rapid technological changes. The importance of focusing on the present and using AI to create deeper connections, rather than amplifying attention-seeking behavior. -- Parterning with AI in a Human(e) Way Intro with music NEW 2022: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing. Sarah: Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode of the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership. We're partnering with AI. Yes. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane [00:03:00] Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane. marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. Before I introduce my guest today, just another reminder that if you're playing with the idea of writing a business book about change, you might want to consider looking at my Business Book Alchemist program. I'm only running this once per year, and not sure if I'll run it again next year unless I'll write a fourth book. I'm finishing my third book with this cohort, and in the eight weeks that we have together, we'll refine your big message. Get clear on your ideal reader. Then build a solid outline for your book and also create a marketing plan for it. The program starts on [00:04:00] November 14th and lasts officially for 8 weeks. I'm saying officially because with last year's participants, we're still meeting monthly in the BBA book lab to hold each other accountable with our writing. It comes with recorded video lessons, so homework, a workbook as well, But also live calls where we connect and have time to really exchange on our big message and the book writing. So check out the details. If you're interested at humane. marketing forward slash BBA and book a call to talk to me about whether this is a good fit for you. All right, back to today's episode. So my guest today, Mark Nguyen, is a dedicated guide and mentor, helping individuals and organizations navigate the complexities of our modern world. With a focus on fostering innovation, [00:05:00] building social capital, and nurturing a sense of togetherness, Mark's work is transforming communities and inspiring countless people to reach their full potential. I Mark is the co founder of the Dandelion Foundation, an initiative aimed at creating a better future by leveraging the unique strengths of small island states. He is also the mind behind the 50 Coffee Adventure, a project that encourages meaningful connections and conversations to drive social change. So join us as we dive into Mark's insight on human centered AI adoption and his vision for a more connected and innovative world. Here's a summary of what we talked about in this episode, how AI and automation can enhance human interactions and marketing. and the importance of using these technologies with the right intentions to support meaningful connections, the impact of social [00:06:00] media, AI and automation on the workforce, questioning the future of employment and the potential for re evaluation of what will sell and how we find meaning in our work. The ethical implications of AI, particularly in marketing and the need to shift from manipulating people's subconscious to empowering them. The role of marketers in creating positive, hopeful stories that inspire deep connection and trust, viewing marketing as a form of healing. The concept of mutual exchange in business and how businesses can foster connection and community while leveraging technology like AI, how businesses and individuals can build optimism and focus on creating something better amidst the rapid technological changes, the importance of focusing on the present and using AI to create deeper connections rather than [00:07:00] amplifying attention seeking behavior. What's funny is that it is only after the episode finished recording that we found out how to apply AI in the form of a background noise cancellation on Mark's Zoom account. I did my best and used all the AI tools I know to make the sound experience as pleasant as possible. But if you do hear some background noise, just appreciate the humanness of this episode. Let's dive in. video1863576471: Hey, Mark, so good to see you again. You already had a good laugh, Off, off recording. So I'm sure this is going to be a, a fun and hopefully also inspiring conversation for, for people listening. Welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Thanks Sarah: for having me. Yeah, it's a delight. Always a delight talking to you and, and like Rachel shout out to Rachel if she's listening, cause she's the one who introduced you having me. The other way around and, and I [00:08:00] really, she, she told me like, Oh, every time I talk to Mark, it's like blows my mind. I'm like, Oh, cool. I want to talk to him. So we did. And now here we are talking about AI and human and whether that, you know, there's anything ethical about that. So yeah, let's dive right in. If you're. open to that? Marc: Yeah, I suppose probably the place to start is kind of what really the moment of realization for me that, that we needed to start having deeper conversations about it. Think I, I ended up in Silicon Valley maybe 11 years ago at a place called Singularity University, which was a place that teaches people about all of the crazy technology that's now arriving and the fact that it was going to arrive far faster than we realize. And so I learned about all of these crazy, fabulous, amazing tools. And it blew my mind. And it took me seven days to get to sleep [00:09:00] again after kind of hearing about the craziness that's arriving. And I was getting the plane home and I stayed in San Francisco the night before, after doing it. I, I I was walking past the Twitter head office. And or near in that area. And I just was thinking that there were tens of millions of dollars being raised to deliver food to that building. 10 minutes faster or three minutes faster or something like that. But meanwhile, there were people homeless outside for drug addiction and things like that. And I started to really question and this is at the forefront of innovation and technology and things like that. And yet, and all of this money going into stuff, but right outside, there was stuff that really mattered that Was being left behind and so I think for the past decade a lot of my focus has really been around how do we bring together this very kind of human world with this [00:10:00] extraordinarily incredible possibility in a way that we don't get some of the unintended consequences of our actions and how does governance itself. Do you know, how do we regulate all of that? And how do we realize that the, the solutions may be arriving in different silos to the ones where we're currently managing for them. And there's, you know, there's some very, very smart people doing some unwise actions. Things in the world. And so in this world of artificial intelligence you know, there's a deeper call for artificial wisdom, maybe, or birth of wisdom. And so, you know, a lot of my work in the last decade is really about, you know, the intersection of where humanity meets technology. And this idea of something new feels like it's being born and and many of our old systems are [00:11:00] collapsing under the scaling complexity of, of, of the era we're in and and, you know, deep down, we all feel like something isn't right. And, you know, I used to be a marketer myself you know, I know this is a marketing community and a direct marketer, you know, really focused on data driven insight and conversion and all the kind of standard of marketing stuff, but, but essentially underneath it all, we were kind of using people's subconscious to, drivers and fears to manipulate them into our desired outcomes. And I started to realize, well, you add AI to that, infinite power and superhuman persuasion. And at the time, 11 years ago, I saw things like Cambridge Analytica. I saw things like Trumpism arriving before Trump even arrived. And ultimately that's the whole world trying to manipulate other people. To do what they want to do rather than what is in our [00:12:00] individual best interests, you know, be it The amount of time we're on screen time having all these amazing behavioral scientists and neuroscientists leveraging Ever more powerful tools to get to do things that aren't necessarily Thriving be it the newspapers pulling us in with huge headlines or clickbait or all of this kind of thing and so I felt that my own gifts were part of the problem When I started to think about the amplification of of what what I know. So many ways. I started to move away from. You know, manipulating others into empowering others to to. To be in their own wisdom and to do things in their individual and collective best interests. And then how do you actually build a mode of governing ourselves from that place? So yeah, I'm 10, 11 years into that process and I probably have more questions than answers. But these are incredible, amazing tools that do we have the wisdom to use? To use them wisely. [00:13:00] Sarah: Yeah. I think that, that really is the big question, right? Because like you, I'm fascinated by the intersection of the human versus the artificial intelligence and people are sometimes quite surprised because I talk about all things human marketing, like we're human selling, like we're human. I'm writing my third book business, like we're human. And, and yet. To me, artificial intelligence is an integral part. That new paradigm that I love to talk about because in my view, it actually helps us to be, or to go back to be more human. And so I guess I would like to have your perspective on that as well, because right now there's two opinions. The one that says, well, AI or chat GPT in marketing is, is just there to dehumanize. everything and [00:14:00] it dehumanizes the interactions and it dehumanizes the, the, the, the messages. So is that true or is there another way to use AI to actually, you know, make that humanness come out in a different way? Marc: So it's all about intention for me. Like the same tool used with misaligned intention. Can deliver vastly different outcomes. And so it's like, it's not really the tool that's the problem. So if I'm using it, I need to create more time that I can pay, spend time with another human being in deep care and deep love, and that is a tool being used to support my humanness, just like zoom is being used right now to have this conversation. It's like, you know, this is the one that says this is an artificial conversation because we brought two humans together. Together that otherwise wouldn't have the time to be able to reach each other and so You know [00:15:00] like like all things it could be used to separate or to connect. It can And so and really it's around what is the intention that these tools are being used for so, you know Say we've got this we've got airline here in my community. It's under Lots of stuff. It's kind of breaking because planes are not going right and the customer service is really Bad because they can't scale to a crisis. And so you couldn't employ enough humans to be human, right? And well actually if you've got systems that can expand and scale and And communicate in a human like way that can support people When they need it in an emergency when you can't provide humans And the current alternative is to be a robot and not available then And people being struggling at airports and all of this Kind of stuff and in crisis and not knowing what to do and all of this kind of stuff but if you've got an Intelligence system that can solve every problem rather than if you press button five And then button three and then about two you [00:16:00] can solve this particular problem, which isn't the problem. I'm really wanting a It's an act of care to provide a tool that meets people's needs. It's an act of love to design a system that cares, even though you're using technology. You know, so for me, I have this I'm a huge proponent of using systems from a place of love, care, and connection. And you know, AI is like magic. If used in the right way with the right kind of, you know, Emotion. Sarah: It leads me automatically to the next question, which is, well, are humans ready for that tool? You know, because if we're saying it's a great tool with the right intention, then maybe what we need to work on is the intention because the tool is already smart enough. So it's the intention that we actually need to work on. And so how [00:17:00] do we, how do we work on that? How do we get humans ready to use the tool with the right intention? Marc: Well, it's not only using it, but it's also about how susceptible are you to manipulation? You know, so like if you have loads of subconscious fears or stories and things like that, it opens you up to people using superhuman persuasion to, to, you know, if you have a fear of death, you're much more likely to be sold health products and all this kind of stuff. So in many ways the inoculation is, you know, what I always say, you should actually teach kids. about marketing and behavioral science, not because to get them to manipulate other people with it is so that they become more aware of what's driving the bus when most messaging is subconscious. And. Yeah, and so, you know, there's this, I think most of us have been through that aging process where we get wiser as we get older. [00:18:00] And that's kind of the shift in consciousness we go through as we evolve during, you know, our lives and humanity has to go through. a real shift for it to Be able to build systems in a way that don't have those consequences So you look at something like facebook or smartphones and things like that We can see all around us that this death of a thousand cuts has happened where everybody's just living in this kind of screen Like every single one of the thousands and thousands of decisions that went into that was probably made sense Logically and smartly but somehow we've ended up in a place where we're All in the same room but disconnected from each other. And so it's like you know, we've accidentally lost ourselves and we can see that with climate change or like with something like that you know, like can you really solve a problem like climate change without Without understanding that over consumption [00:19:00] Is a maybe a self worth issue like, you know, am I enough, you know? Or do I need more to To be someone and recognizing that, you know, these tools are manipulating that Sense of not enough and then how do you how do you how do you market pay a bill? when Your whole business model requires people to consume more even though it may not be in their best interest And so that interesting gap between wants and needs You and how do we, how do we, how do we get technology to support us what we really need rather than what we can be manipulating to wanting and I, you know, I kind of always look at what, say, how billionaires operate. Themselves, you know they'll a lot of them have an amazing assistant that is like the world's best ad blocker, you know You know what I mean? They don't really need to use the internet themselves or anything like that because it'll be facilitated and [00:20:00] so we kind of you know need to look at those kind of tools and stuff that we can build which are you know, the wise owl that sits on people's shoulder and and supports people, to choose the higher selves in moments of You of kind of manipulation. So I think it's an extraordinarily interesting time to be a builder that cares. I think there's never been a better time to you, to develop kind of technology with wisdom and technology that can bring us together and technology that can create magic and wonder and all of these kinds of things. But also there's, there's never been a better time to create lots of unintended, Consequences. Sarah: Yeah, I think that's the issue that I have is that we don't have enough examples of good people using AI right now. And that's why there's so much fear because people look at the. Not so good examples, [00:21:00] you know, the, the, the, the LinkedIn bots putting, you know, AI chat, GPT messages and spamming people and things like that. And so they're like, you see, you know, that's what AI is going to do. It's going to dehumanize everything because the good people, I'm just putting the two of us in the good people side, you know, there's not, you haven't seen Marc: me on a bad day. Sarah: But I'm just saying, there's not enough people who, who talk about doing business for good, who are also saying, yeah, but AI can be actually really good if we use it with the right intention. That's what I'm seeing. Marc: So a LinkedIn bot, I'm like, why wouldn't you use a LinkedIn bot to spread delight and wonder and mischief? You know, I was thinking about developing a belly laugh app the other day, just to, just to send belly laughs to people and things like that. You'd [00:22:00] be really good at that. Yeah. Record yours. Yeah. And it's just like, well, why would you automate something that would bring joy, laughter, and kindness? So, you know I think a friend of mine, Nipun Mehta, who does a lot of stuff around AI and wisdom, highly recommended stuff, and he's like, what about the seven viral virtues, you know, and how do you actually get to that? technologies to support the virality. I, you know, again, it's, it's like, I love the idea of a LinkedIn bot that just makes people laugh and, and, and it's about value, right? Yeah, you see a lot of these LinkedIn bots and it's all about what can I get? What can I get? And then sometimes it's a bit lazy and and it's like, Literally, it's like, I'm a human being. Why would I even respond to that? It's not even clever. Exactly. Well, that's what I Sarah: mean by bad examples, right? But it doesn't Marc: mean you can't be, you can't use the same technology and genuinely be clever and funny. [00:23:00] And well, but humor is my Brand essence and things like that mischief and playfulness. I'm not going to design something using these tools I'm not afraid of using these tools which kind of but I I would use them that really spread the essence of me to find That kind of deep resonance with other people, but you've also got to say well look if everybody used those tools which is increasingly getting easier and easier to do. We just break every social platform. There's so much noise, like the information overload right now is, is getting exponentially worse. And so, you know, to even get connection, you know, the depth of connection that has two people trust each other enough to work together. You know, that isn't going to come from the scaling the shallow, right? You know, that's, there's, you know, there's a reason why I kind of wrote a book on having coffee and, and teaching people to have coffee was, I think, in a world of ever increasing shallowness and scale, the ability to go deeper is kind [00:24:00] of the social network raster class. So, you know, I've had 10, 000 coffees in the last decade because I didn't think the other stuff would, would work that well as the noise did. You know, because everyone's like me, me, me, me, me, me, me with all this technology and amplifying the need for attention when, you know, and, and what we really want is the need for connection. And then when you, if you start with the premise on, okay, how do we use technology to support depth and trust an emotional connection. I think we build very different things. And that's the paradox Sarah: for me, that that really is the paradox. And that's why I believe that AI is actually helping us to create more spaciousness, to have time for those coffee chats. Yeah. Because right now people don't have the time. They're like, I don't have the time to talk to someone for 45 minutes. I have all these things to do. We have all these, this busy work [00:25:00] that we keep doing. Especially as entrepreneurs, often it's not even paid work, right? It's just like all these marketing messages and content plans and all of these things. And that's where AI is actually really good at helping us create that, if we even need to create that. I'm all about questioning our assumptions as well. Like, do we even need to create all that love? So yeah, people want depth more, right? And so that's what AI helps us create. create this more spaciousness to then spend time on a thousand coffee chats. And that's where the humanness comes back. Marc: And we're also going to realize that the world we're moving into is very different. You know, the idea of free intelligence, free energy, free labor, if we And like making money is something, you know, capitalism itself starts to break down in the next [00:26:00] decade or two as a result of if you draw the line of where all of this is going, because we're automating parts of our process today. But you know, you add a humanoid robot to that kind of thing and like everything can be done All needs can be provided and things like that with that kind of technology that's arriving And so it's like what are we selling when there's nothing to sell and how do we make? We have no needs that can't be met by you know The robots and the ais and all of that and the free energy Around us, right? And so Yeah Sarah: Yeah, that's huge. Like, yeah, what do we sell anymore? How Marc: do we find meaning in that process? Which, you know, I'm kind of the global conversation around meaning is, you know, around me since that WikiGuide diagram went around the world and things like that, that are responsible. There's a crisis of meaning.[00:27:00] Happening in the world right now. In in many age groups as people are trying to reconcile where, where do they fit in, you know, as the world is changing very rapidly and the old stories of who we are are moving in. And so, how do you find. Intrinsic motivation to when your old identities kind of dissolve, you know because, you know, we are more than our jobs or who we are with something deeper, but that process of discovery of who we are and what we find joy in when the workplace is going to radically change, it is changing. And how do we, yeah it's just like a. It's a very kind of strange time to be alive, you know, we're all kind of going through a process of death and rebirth, whether we like it or not. And it's like yeah, the need for attention to pay the bills is a kind of temporary state that I think we'll have to raise questions about whether we need to do that. To do that anymore. And [00:28:00] then, and I always kind of say to my wife and it's like, vague, it's like, when the robots come out, you know, our marriage is what's left. Let's work on that bit, you know, rather than understanding the importance of all of these tasks that need to be done in everyday family life. And and likewise, you know, when the robots come and, and who you are, And AI comes, who you are is what's left out of all of this stuff is done. It's like, what would you do when nobody is looking just for the sake of the joy of doing it? That's, that's Sarah: really interesting. Cause it in the, in this new book Business Like We're Human, I basically feel that we have to work on our relationship with work right now. Yeah. I think that is for the next five or so years. That is our main thing because also of you know what's going to come but for [00:29:00] me also because if we want to run businesses like we're human well right now we're working all the time and that that's not human or humane. But then also to To tie back into climate, the climate crisis and all these other crisis we have right now, we cannot solve those if we're constantly working to pay our bills. So we need to free our time for creative thinking, for just, you know, being human again so that we can tackle those and, and probably AI will help us with that as well. But I do believe that as humans, we need to redefine who we are. When we're not working, that is kind of like the question of the of the decade. I feel like, like, who are we if, if we're not working, if we're not defined by our work, because I, yeah, I didn't take it as far as the robots coming, but yeah, that's where we're going, right? Marc: Yeah. Whether it's Sarah: robots or AI or [00:30:00] whatever it is. Marc: Yeah. And it's like, what are we, what painting do we paint with that? We've kind of grown up with many kind of dystopian views of, Of what the world can be with that and I'm I'm more hopeful than that. But also recognizing that in in business terms I think about capital flows during that kind of period. And, you know, if we think about, you know, say the Holy Grail is in 10, 20 years or whatever, or 30 years, depending on your understanding at 40, 50, a hundred years or whatever, and you say, okay like how much money needs to flow to create a world of human thriving within planetary boundaries, you know So the energy system needs to change the health system needs to change all of these kind of things And so huge amounts of money Needs to move to facilitate that transformation. So I you know, I don't really like we need money to end money I kind of always say and it's like [00:31:00] I think it requires the best marketers the the best businesses the to You you know, to shift all of the resources from this kind of extracted deficit, extractive deficit based world that is around human coping to you know, this regenerative asset based world around human thriving that will unlock more wealth than we can ever imagine. Imagine to the point that wealth becomes pointless. So I don't really necessarily think it's an either or Thing it's not something we need to create time with our jobs to then have something else I think we'll see exploding industries and businesses that come from people who care that want to build something human with all these great tools That actually are unafraid to make money in the process of doing it because they, they're willing to inspire people to be hopeful and to move to another world. And and you, you see all sorts of brands starting to emerge that, that, that [00:32:00] attract lots of resources because, you know, I, it's not an either or thing. Like there's, you know but it's, it's messy, you know, going from caterpillar to butterfly and I, I don't necessarily have all the answers myself, but I, I don't you know, the idea, you know, I think there'll be an explosion of wealth but because we have all of these machines and potential, and we'd be able to create more circular ways of doing things, more regenerative ways of doing things, and like, you know, really well, people are better. And people who are below the poverty line, you know, create income and and money for businesses. And you get a load of struggling people behind the poverty line, that's not good for anyone. Or people with chronic disease or all of these kinds of things, that's not good for anyone. And I think once we start lining up kind of these entrepreneurial desires with what the world really needs and what we all need, and we get into creating a much, much bigger pie for everyone. Then, you know, we'll all do much better than we did before [00:33:00] monetarily as well as. And, you know, these tools can help us do that, but we need to all kind of learn to line with our own best interests and humanity's best interest heart, but, you know, part of that is how do we learn to get along enough to find out enough about each other to be able to collaborate to find out what really matters to us individually and collectively. And I think we're struggling as a, as a human race. With that right now, Sarah: yeah, that's, that's the main thing. It's like, yeah, the outer stuff is all lining up for us, but are we ready in terms of the inner job? Are we doing our inner job? And Marc: yeah, I mean, I can't even create agreement in my own family, you know, how do you create agreement in the world? And it's like, man, this feels like the tension, you know, it's like we have all of this limitless possibility arriving, but can we get out of our own way? to, to to manifest it. And I think this is the, I think this is the real role that marketers play which is [00:34:00] telling these really positive, hopeful stories that not just for people to consume, but to inspire people, you know, to be the best selves and, and to create the thing that they're, they're born to create and to be okay to do that perfectly. And in a human way and to create that kind of, you know, viral deep connection that comes with people. being alive. Sarah: Yeah, I love that. That's kind of a a good place to to come full circle. I love how you did that It's like, oh, yeah, it's all about the marketers Marc: I did start off as a marketer So, yeah, I can spin a story I can't do much but spinning a story Sarah: That's great. No exactly and I think that's really You What, [00:35:00] what we're working on is like, you know, marketing has been taught as an outside job for so many years. What I'm trying to do with humane marketing and some friends and colleagues are, you know, they're calling it differently conscious marketing and Claudia and other people. It's like, well, What if we start from the inside? What if market, a marketer is actually a healer, right? That's, that's what this is about. And it's, it's, you can call it a marketer or you can, whatever, a facilitator, whatever it is, right? If, if more people heal themselves and then help others heal, that's, that's. Marc: Yeah. I mean, I tend to, cause I work right across community and I knew the language of consciousness and healing and stuff really resonates and connects with a certain part of the community. And be at whatever stage and kind of the adoption curve that is, although that's rapidly changing. But to me, it's just good marketing. Like, let's not cloud [00:36:00] it with its own form of words. Bureaucracy and stuff like that. It's like, you know, the whole point of marketing is to emotionally connect with people to create a mutually beneficial outcome, right? That's just good marketing. Let's not dress it up. And like, we're just, we're just learning in this era that there are ways of marketing better and deep connection and trust is one of the core aspects of, you know, Marketing for as long as I've known it and it's just like we're we're learning our craft collectively. We're getting better at doing that and let's See it something else or them and us. It's just It's just good marketing. Sarah: Yeah, that's really good. I always ask now that I'm working on this book the final question is like, what does business like we're human mean to you? Like when you hear this term business, like we're human, what comes up for you? Like, what, what does that make you [00:37:00] think of? Marc: Yeah, for me, it's like this idea of mutual exchange. Yeah. You know, I think in the consciousness community, there's a lot of fear of receiving, I think, and You know, I kind of always had these visions of like, kind of the Italian markets and things like that, where there's this great flow of abundance and handing over the money and fruit and beautiful stuff coming the other way. And there's all this kind of love and conversation and things like that. So that, but there's still trade because, you know, it's, it's. It's a, it's a pain in the ass to do barter, you know, it's exhausting to like find the right person who's got the bits, you know, so there's, there's something magical in as a technology [00:38:00] commerce itself that, that allows previously impossible exchanges to place. And I think there's beauty in that. You know, the market was a place of conversation and connection and wonder and beauty and care. and you know, that to me, and it can take all forms, but the essence of that, that it's something done together from a place of, but there's still this kind of exchange going on. That's, for what that means in a modern context. You know, it's not sitting at home, pressing one click on Amazon, watching Netflix for three hours a night. Not speaking to anyone, not going anywhere that to me isn't human business, it's business. But Sarah: Yeah. It's also, it's like buying from not a human, but this giant mega list of company, right? Where on the market you see the person that you're buying from. So you [00:39:00] like, there's this establishment of trust as well. Marc: But it's not to say that I haven't had amazing things from Amazon or amazing things from Netflix. And that there is an art and wonder and love that's been put into all of these things. And, you know, we've just got to hold it lightly and say, well, okay, how do we just tweak these things a little and then be a little wiser about how we're using them and then try and build these systems in a way that bring us together rather than drive us apart. And and I think that'll be good for business, you know maybe, you know, Netflix becomes the world's greatest party planner or something, you know, like that brings people together. I'd pay a subscription for that, you know, took all the effort by meeting and, you know, Amazon was creating pop up markets all over the world to create kind of wonder. I think these things will end up being massive. Businesses that will create more commerce than the current kind of disconnected way of doing things and it's just these are really complex, complex problems is, you know, working [00:40:00] globally, but the bringing us all back to each other. Whereas I think, you know, globalization is has driven a lot of convenience, but it's also driven a lot of disconnection. And I think. You know, the businesses of the future will be much more fractal that allow us to be human and in villages and at Dunbar kind of scale of connection, but still provide us with that kind of convenience and wonder. But I think that's where things like AI are really interesting because they can hold all that complexity that I kind of hunter gatherer localized minds can't hold. And when those 2 things work in unison that work in our individual and collective best interest, then I think we'll, we'll create. Wonderful, inspiring, connecting businesses that will not be the same as the Italian markets that drove that, but will be even better. Even Sarah: better. Even better. I don't know about that one. Marc: What if that was possible? How magical would the world be? I like to, you know, see the, I [00:41:00] like your Sarah: optimism. Yeah. Well, as I Marc: say to my dystopian friends the day we all die, at least I would have enjoyed myself on the way there. What's the downside for hope, right? You know, that's the, and so, yeah, I, I, I, I'd like to think we could live in the world where the wonders of the past and the wonders of the future meet together to create something better than we can even imagine today. I don't think we have a choice. Sarah: Yeah, we don't want to be stuck where we are, so Well, we Marc: can't. We can't unify unless we honor the past and bring forward the magic of the future and do it in a way that honors us all, in a way that inspires us all and connects us all. I don't think we have a choice about that because everything else leads to, you know, a huge kind of dissatisfaction and disconnection of one society, part of society over another. So, you know, it's [00:42:00] a time for the hopeful imagineers to, you know, that COVID phrase, you know, build back better. I don't think we And you know, this is about society turning from a caterpillar into a butterfly and and you know, we're in the messy bit it's hard for a caterpillar to see what a butterfly looks like from that perspective, right? So like we it's hard to imagine from where we are going into the liquidation Liquidation that there could be a mutable butterfly the other side I don't want to you know, spend hours and hours of my life fearing for the future Yeah I want to be part of building the butterfly and not to say I don't spend hours and hours of my life figuring for the future, but like when I remember, that's pretty pointless. I get back to the, you know, the everyday wonder of spending time with amazing people, building amazing things as you do, right? And that's always what turns me to hope is when I'm in a conversation with someone like you, realizing that there are people like you all over the world in all sorts of different ways doing amazing things. And [00:43:00] that whilst it's not always easy to see on the news feeds and the social media feeds, like if you spend enough time out in the world, you, you can feel, you can feel all over every day. And whenever I'm feeling overwhelmed or stressed by the future, I just go and have coffee with someone wonderful. And it reminds me that I'm not alone in this And There are people building technology from care. There are people Bringing the markets back. There are people like doing all sorts of but you know with thumb up machines and all of these kind of other other bits and pieces that that will you know, yeah But we'll find our way. Sarah: We're just Marc: a little lost right now. Sarah: Yeah, well, I, yeah, I definitely want to talk again to you because every time I speak to you it's like, oh, you see, there's so much no, no, I'm usually a very optimistic person as well, and I still am. Surround myself by, yeah, content and, and ideas and inspiration. But yeah, talking to you, [00:44:00] it's, it just confirms all of that. It's like, yeah, that's exactly what I'm working towards. So it's been a, it's been a delight to refresh my memory with your wisdom. So so much for coming on today. You spend a Marc: day with me when I'm in family life, you'll see. See, I'm not that wise, you know, there's no pedestal here. I spent time thinking and feeling about certain things. I have some gifts, but I also have many, many weaknesses. And so I don't want to cover this space. I'm good. You know, this is my gift. But please don't get the wrong idea that I don't spend lots of time in my struggle as well. How British of you to Sarah: be so humble. Marc: Self deprecating, I think it's Sarah: the Marc: culture of birching ourselves. Sarah: And I'll just have to mention that I'll have to use the best AI possible out there to clean up the audio from all [00:45:00] the mic sounds and stuff. Marc: Do our best. Sarah: I hope it wasn't too terrible Marc: to listen to. Yeah, and the builders started hammering half way through it, but I think that's the best. The magic. Although I, although I, I invite you to put out an imperfect live offering that shows the humanism. Yeah, we'll do a mix of Sarah: humanness. We can't, you Marc: know, polishing everything also loses some of its. Some of it's magic. It's like romantic almost. As long as you put a good story on it, it's fine. Sarah: Good. Well, delightful to hang out with you, Mark. Thanks so much for being here. Marc: Take care. Sarah: I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Find out more about Mark's work at markwin. com or [00:46:00] connect with him on LinkedIn. And if you're looking for others who think like you, who are wanting to create this new paradigm of marketing and business, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. you find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash M 1 9 8. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. The Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak [00:47:00] [00:48:00] soon.

In this new episode, Sarah sits down with Emily Shull to explore the complex relationship we have with money. They delve into why many people find this topic challenging and stressful, discussing common beliefs and narratives that shape our financial decisions. The conversation highlights how our upbringing and family culture influence our perceptions of money as adults, and the emotional aspects that play a significant role in our financial behaviors. Together, they address the taboo surrounding money and share insights on fostering open, healthy dialogues. By examining the difference between scarcity and abundance mentalities, Emily provides practical steps for entrepreneurs to begin healing their relationship with money, ultimately guiding them to align their wallets with their true purpose. Tune in for a compassionate discussion around a dry topic: money! Here's what we talked about: The reason so many people have a difficult relationship with money and why it causes stress. Common money beliefs or narratives that people develop and how they influence financial decisions. How upbringing and family culture shape the way we view and interact with money as adults. The role of emotion in financial behaviors and how we can become more aware of it. Why money is such a taboo topic and how we can start having more open and healthy conversations about it. The impact of scarcity mentality versus abundance mentality on our relationship with money and how to shift towards abundance. Practical steps people can take to begin healing their relationship with money. A teaser for what we'll work on during the Collab workshop on October 2nd.   --- Intro with music NEW 2022 + 4 [00:00:00] Sarah: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] Hi, Emily. It's good to see you, hear you. We we see each other regularly because we're in this book lab. And so it's good to have this conversation just one on one with you on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Welcome. Emily: Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for inviting me, Sarah, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Sarah: Yeah, talking about a taboo, money, right? You, you made that your topic, so we're gonna dive right in and I'm gonna ask, start by asking you why Why is it a taboo? Why do so many people struggle with this [00:06:00] topic of money? What have you seen in your work? Emily: Yeah, that's a great question. Money, our relationship with money is so complicated. Because what we're taught about money is that it's just math, it's numbers, it's accounting, it's logical. So you should be able to learn about it easily, make good decisions. And that's what it's all about, you know, making things add up, but our relationship with money. It's actually something that we feel inside of us. It's very emotional. It has a very long history that's been starting since the time that we were born. And so it's, it's a difficult and complicated and taboo relationship because it's so filled with emotions and are very deeply personal history. And so what I do as a holistic money coach is help people connect these two things.[00:07:00] Their rational mind that wants to make good decisions with money that has intentions for their lives and wants to fulfill them and this emotional side that sometimes contains these unconscious drivers that are keeping us from reaching the goals that we that we want for ourselves. Sarah: Yeah, you called them unconscious drivers, I guess. Is that the same thing as limiting beliefs, something else that we often hear limiting Emily: belief. Yeah, you can, you can identify them in different ways. Another, another way to think about that is that it's different parts of ourselves. When we're making a money decision, we have all these different parts that want to chime in and have a say in that. And so. 1 is the logical part that says, no, we don't need another sweater. And then another part comes in and says, oh, but oh, but this makes me feel so cozy. And it reminds me of what it was [00:08:00] like to feel like, really warm and snuggly as a child. And then another part that's kind of shaming and saying, no, why are you even having this conversation? You know, we don't need this. You need to be responsible. So there are many ways to think about this. unconscious part. Sarah: It's interesting. So it's, it's conscious, unconscious left brain, right brain, maybe mind and heart. So it's always these yin and yang. You could probably also say that, you know, the yang part is, is the logical part. And the yin part is the more kind of like flowing and being in harmony and just using money. When it feels good, right? So yeah, it's, it's so interesting. So what, what are some examples of, of some of these beliefs that maybe we have formed in our childhoods? Because I think you did mention this story with money [00:09:00] starts in our, in our early years, right? Or maybe, and that's a question to you, maybe it actually goes even beyond that. Like, maybe it's our history that starts even before we were born and it goes into the history of our ancestors as well. I, I personally believe that. So curious to hear what you think, and then maybe you can give us some examples. Emily: Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. Our relationship with money goes so far back. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So when we're born, our parents beliefs about money and everything that they experienced, which includes their parents beliefs and everything they experienced and back and back and back. That is all put upon us when we're born. So this is what we're born into. And this becomes our money beliefs. And 1 of 2 things happen. We either we usually [00:10:00] just take them on. We inherit them. They become ours until we mature and see different ways of being with money and then decide for ourselves how we want to be. Or we reject them, we say, we know this is totally not us. This is not the way we want to be. And so we do something completely different. But either way, it's an unconscious decision until we mature and. Really take a look at ourselves and our own experiences. Then we're able to tease apart. What is actually inherently mine? What are my values around money versus what I was born into my parents and the culture around me and what I find is that. It's so deeply personal, so there are so many layers of our origins with with money. We're affected by our environment. You know, the, the country we were born into our culture [00:11:00] has a big impact on how we think about money. If you think about some Asian cultures, save, you know, 30, 40 percent of their income in the United States. I think the savings rate is in the, in the single digits. So that's 1 impact. And then as you go narrower, then there's our parents and household that we grew up. You know, when I grew up, if we didn't eat out that much, but when we went even to a fast food restaurant, my mother was very frugal. So, you never ordered the big sandwich, you know, you never ordered the drink. You just got your drink at home. Whereas in another, you know, a friend of mine, you know, that wasn't the case for her. But it all really filters down to your own personal experiences. So what I find is that even though in our environment, and our parents play a big role in what we think about money, it's really our own lived experiences that have the biggest impact. And it's [00:12:00] usually related to something that happened, as when we were children, and that just hasn't been brought to light that hasn't been healed. So I'll give you an example of 1 person that I worked with. She came to me because for her money was always. A struggle, she just felt it felt heavy. It felt like no matter what she was doing, no matter how much income she was bringing in or what her assets were. It felt like a constant struggle. And this may have been surprising if you looked at her life from the outside, she was very intelligent and talented. She had multiple. Degrees, she was respected in her field of work, and she did all the things that you're supposed to do to to have a good relationship with money and to make it work. You know, she read books, she followed strategies she had a supportive partner, yet she still felt this constant struggle with money. Like she was. Yeah, like she was in it on her own, and that was always really hard. [00:13:00] Well, what we found during our work together was that it was tied to her loss of her sister when she was very young. So when she was about 10 years old, her sister, who was close in age, died, and her parents really turned inside at that time in their own grief. And so there was no space for her to, to express her grief and to process that. Yeah. Yeah. And then, in addition to that, her mother died when she was in her early 20s, and her father quickly remarried and really abandoned her after that. And so when, when we looked at her history, not just related to money, but her family history as well. It was really surprising how directly this was tied to the feeling of struggle. It was all about feeling abandoned and not having that family support that she needed at that very crucial age. So, I see this In my work with everyone that I [00:14:00] work with, it's it's not just about what is our money belief, but what very specific situation happened to us that brought that and usually it's not something we would ever associate with money. Sometimes it could be money related, but other times it's not. It's just a purely developmental wound that almost all of us have. Sarah: Yeah, I'm so glad you shared such a deep example because that really shows how deep this, this goes, right? How far back we need to go and, and how, how many layers we need to uncover. And it's very vulnerable. Work to, to go to these places because usually they're, they're not exactly happy moments at least from what I've seen because we talk about money in the marketing, like human program as well. And it's, it's usually not. the happy moments that created these limiting [00:15:00] beliefs, right? It's something that happened in our childhood that, yeah, was, was difficult, probably. Not always, but not always like, you know, as difficult as the example you shared. For me, it, it really had to do with not feeling guilty to be a business owner. Because my parents I, I grew up in a small hippie community, as, you know, Emily and, and, and like all the people in, in that community were from the working class. And so the the entrepreneurial world, or, you know, the people making money were not. Put in a good light. And so I, I just had to uncover that and go, Oh, but I can actually be an entrepreneur and make money in a good way for a good cause. And it's not money is not bad per se, right. It's the intention that, that counts. And so, yeah, just uncovering those. Those layers is so, [00:16:00] so important. I was thinking also when you were talking that you're, you were saying it's, you know, it's very personal and it truly is. And then often what happens in life, we, you know, find a partner and get together with someone else and we get married. And oftentimes today, if we're married, well, the money kind of merges, right? And then there's two human beings with completely different money stories, and that is not always easy to manage either. Do you sometimes work with couples as well, or, or does maybe not together, but. Is that a topic where it's like, oh, but I have this money story and he or she has this completely different money story? Emily: Absolutely. Yes. So I work with couples sometimes. It's often kind of like a can of worms because it is so difficult because, because we all have our own money [00:17:00] story that most of the time we're not even conscious of where our own money patterns come from. So you put two people together who are not conscious of where their money patterns come from, and it's, it's, it can be impossible to have really constructive Arrangements, I was going to say arguments, sometimes arguments or agreements or conversations about this, because you don't even know where it's coming from for yourself. So, the 1st step is to understand. Your own money history and then to understand where your partner is coming from. And that's the only way to move forward when it comes to money. But there are so many layers in that. And I find that couples. There's so much going on within a relationship so I don't do much couple work myself because of that. Sarah: I think it's probably borderline therapy there, and you're not a therapist, right? That's not the same thing, so, because I would argue that there's probably a lot of couple, work [00:18:00] that goes back to money. And so, yeah, that, that is definitely has to go into couple therapy and not, not just money, because like you said, most of them are probably not conscious that it's because of their different money stories that they have you know, relationship problems. Anyways, we, we digress, but, but it's yeah, it's interesting that it has, it didn't. Impact so many different aspects of our lives. And of course, here on this podcast, we talk about, you know, entrepreneurship but also marketing. And, and when I did this research and created the marketing, like we're human program, I really looked at this idea of abundance and how that impacts, yes, your. You know, beliefs about money, but then also your beliefs about marketing, meaning that if you come from a abundant [00:19:00] perspective, then marketing doesn't feel as heavy anymore because you don't feel like you have to push or persuade or, or, or manipulate even, right? Because you just feel like there's enough out there for me. And the same thing applies with money. But I'm curious, To, to hear your perspective on this often talked about topic between scarcity and abundance mindset, right? We're, we're hearing everywhere, Oh, you just have to have an abundant mindset, but how can we have that if we are, haven't healed our childhood wounds yet? Maybe. Emily: Yeah, I think it all goes back to the childhood wounds. So, yeah, so this example of talking about abundance versus scarcity. I think it's, it's always more helpful to get as as specific to your unique circumstances as possible. So, what I mean by that [00:20:00] is. Marketing. I'll give you an example from my own life. The first time that I marketed a program. Oh, my goodness. I was so resistant to sending an email to my network because I didn't have a list at that time. So it was just people that I knew. Talking about this free webinar that I was giving, I wasn't even asked them to buy anything, but I was so resistant and I tried to really figure out. Oh, my gosh, what is stopping me from doing this? And at 1st, I thought it was I thought it was. My, my environment of you know, my mother, I remember her telling the story when we were young of her father was in business with his brother and his brother somehow cheated him and became rich and my mother's family stayed poor. And so there was this belief that, you know, wealthy people are, you know, take advantage of people and I wanted to be a nice person, so maybe somehow this was related to my marketing challenge. But the more that I sat with that, I [00:21:00] realized there was something much deeper. So, it was this voice that I kept hearing when I was trying to send that email was I don't want to bother people. And so that was a much deeper message that I received growing up of feeling like I was bothering people when I was sharing something that maybe they didn't want to hear what I had to say. And so, instead of talking about, do I have a scarcity mindset or an abundant mindset, I think the most direct way to understand our behaviors, whether that's. You know, to do with managing money or marketing our business or selling our product. It's always going layer by layer to see where is this coming from? What is this feeling that I'm feeling in my body? When was the earliest time that I experienced this? What is this really about? Because when we get to the root and we heal that, then all the other behaviors [00:22:00] disappear. We're actually able to act in alignment with our true intentions. Transcribed Yeah, it really Sarah: is this domino effect, right, where you, when you go back, then all the other dominoes kind of start to fall in place and yes, Emily: and so much of what. Is out there as solutions is it's it helps in the moment. For example, if you have a fear of visibility, you know, you can try to talk yourself out of that. Oh, of course, these are my, this is my network. They won't be bothered by what I have to say. If they're not interested in my webinar, they simply won't attend. It's okay. I can send this email. So that might work in the moment and I can send the email and have my webinar. But then the next time I have to do it, it's all going to come back again and again. So if you're able to get to the root of it, then you won't need to take these steps again and again and again. And it yeah, it, it connects us more to who we [00:23:00] are more of our, our core self. And that's really the beauty of doing money work is that it. It makes you feel better, not just about money, but about yourself. And it connects you more to who you are. It's ironic because so many of us don't think of money as a spiritual thing. In fact, it's often thought of as the opposite of that. But in my opinion, doing money work is one of the most spiritual and personally connecting things that you can do because really to get to the root of it, you have to understand yourself on a level. And and become more compassionate for yourself on a level that you hadn't before. Sarah: What would you say to You know, some of the offers around money coaching they promise you, you know, a six figure business or a seven figure business, or, you know, they're promising you that you can manifest money [00:24:00] whenever you want because you now healed your childhood wounds. What do you think about that? Emily: Well, I think they usually don't talk about the childhood wounds. They talk about a strategy that they offer. That's going to get you the 6 figures. And strategy, it, it can only go so far. If you're not. If you can't implement it, because you're stuck, because you have all these unconscious, beliefs, then then it's not going to work. So then you just need to go a little bit deeper. I think most of these programs out there, they just don't go deep enough. And that's they work for people who are capable of implementing them. But if you're not, because you're stuck somehow, you need to understand where that stuckness is coming from and deal with that 1st. Sarah: Well, I would add that I think a good money coach just like any good coach [00:25:00] cannot make promises about, you know, you now making tons of money because you healed your money story. That's to me, not what money work is about. It's about. Yes, healing those wounds and, and, you know, helping you to live your fullest potential and have a healthy relationship to money, but there's no promise that. You know, you are in this lifetime meant to make a million dollars and, you know, maybe you don't even want that. So, so it's just like the two things are not related. It's like, it will help you yes, heal that, heal that story and, and, you know, maybe not spend everything every time you, you get money, but it's, it's not going to help you just have money fall from the sky either. Emily: Yeah, a lot. Yes. That's a really good point. So I do see that some money coaches are really like wealth coaches. Like they want you to be wealthy and that is their goal for you. [00:26:00] And my goal for people that I work with is to help them feel more calm around money. Like their, their money goals are their business, right? I know desire or, you know, yeah, it's completely up to them. When you, yeah, as a coach, if you go into it thinking, well, you're, you know, you should be rich and I'm going to teach you how, well, that's different from having a healthy relationship with money. That's just. I'm going to make you wealthy. Sarah: Yeah. Emily: Yeah. Sarah: I'm glad we clarified that. So what would you say are kind of the next steps for people who are listening? How can they start on their own to heal their money story? Emily: Yeah, so paying attention to what you're feeling in your body when these money challenges are coming up is a great place to start. [00:27:00] Journaling, drawing, those are great places to begin to understand what's really going on beneath, peeling back some of those layers. Yeah. And. Sarah: I remember your, your workshops in the Circle Expo with, with drawing people, people love those. I think it's, it's when we tap into, like we said before, into the unconscious or the, the heart or the, you know, the, the right brain that's when kind of these, inhibitors maybe, yeah, fall away and we can just really let the emotions out and that, and yeah, people really enjoyed that, letting out the creativity to think about their money. Emily: Yeah, drawing is such a great avenue to explore what's really going on behind the scenes, because when we draw, we think in whole [00:28:00] images, and that includes all of the emotional undercurrents of what's going on. So that that's why that that exercise is usually so powerful because it's so simple. I do want to say when you say creativity, it is a creative process, but you don't, you don't have to think of yourself as a creative or artistic person in order to do this. You know, drawing with stick figures, which is the only thing I'm capable of, is perfectly fine and will, and will get you to that emotional the emotional space that you're looking for as well. Sarah: Yeah, that's great. So you're coming into the Humane Marketing Circle for a collab workshop that is open to the public and well attended by the community members as well. Can you give us a little teaser on what we'll do on October Emily: 2nd? Sure. We're, you, we're going to discover where our money beliefs come from learn how to identify unhelpful money beliefs. [00:29:00] And then learn how to free yourself from unhelpful money beliefs so that you can align your actions with your goals. So we'll be doing that. I'll do a little presentation, but there also be breakout rooms and exercises that we're going to do to begin to explore our own origins of our money behaviors. Sarah: Yeah, can't wait. I think the, the, the beauty of these workshops is that they're really hands on. So it's, yes, it's a presentation. Yes, it's content that you provide, but then like you said, we have the time to go into breakout rooms and talk to other humans and, and really apply directly, because I feel like. When we attend the webinar and we get bombarded by great ideas and inspiration. But then if we don't actually do something with it right away, sometimes it just goes in here and out on the other side. Right. So I really look forward to to this workshop and. Maybe we'll be doing some drawing and as well, [00:30:00] who knows? But yeah, can't wait. So if you are listening to this and would like to join us, humane. marketing forward slash workshop is the link that you can sign up for. As I said, this is usually reserved to the community. But these collab workshops are open and you can join with a small donation and Emily will share all her wisdom there. So can't wait, Emily you Emily: tap into your own wisdom. Sarah: Yes, that's true. Yes, exactly. Yeah, because maybe that's where we can end. I really feel like. You know, this whole money conversation, even though money is something external that we use with other people, and that kind of brings us or, or ties us into the world outside, it really is this inner job that has to do with it. Yeah. Solving or, or [00:31:00] healing some stuff inside first, right? Yep. Very well said. Yeah. Great. Well, what a delight. Thank you so much for being here today. Do please share with people where they can find you and I think you have an assessment you want to share as well. Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Sarah. So you can find me on my website, me, myself, and money. com. And there you can find a, I think it's a pop up. So it'll just, it'll gently appear after a few seconds. It's my money assessment. So you can assess your relationship with money. And we're used to seeing this in terms of, you know, do you have investments? Do you have savings? All these practical categories. But what my assessment does is help you understand more holistically what your relationship is with money based on what your relationship is with yourself. Sarah: Mm. Emily: Yeah. Sarah: That, that's a, definitely a good starter. And then it gives us [00:32:00] a result based on, on the answers we gave on, yeah, I, I'm curious. I'm going to have to take it. It's like, Oh, you're in love or no, you're, you know, breaking up or it'd be, it'd be good to understand the results after the, the assessment. Wonderful. Well, thanks so much, Emily, for being here. And yeah. Please do sign up for the workshop, again, humane. marketing. com forward slash workshop. And can't wait to see you on October 2nd. See you then. Thanks, Sarah. Thank [00:33:00] [00:34:00] [00:35:00] [00:36:00] [00:37:00] [00:38:00] [00:39:00] [00:40:00] [00:41:00] [00:42:00] [00:43:00] you.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, I'm joined by Pauliina Rasi to explore the art of effortless and authentic social media post writing. We dive into why writing for social media can feel daunting, and how you can overcome those challenges by finding your unique voice and style.  Pauliina shares practical strategies for brainstorming fresh content, maintaining consistency, and offers a sneak peek into the powerful frameworks we'll cover in our upcoming workshop.  This conversation is designed to inspire and empower entrepreneurs to write with more ease and flow, aligning your social media presence with the principles of humane marketing. Here's what we talked about: + Why writing social media posts can feel so daunting + How to find your unique voice and style in your social media posts without feeling like you're copying others + Strategies for brainstorming ideas and generating fresh content for your posts + Tips for maintaining consistency + And a sneak peek of the frameworks that Pauliina will share with us in our upcoming workshop on September 4th - https://lu.ma/f64hyojw And so much more... --- video1182592561 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing. Ep 195 intro: Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Humane Marketing Podcast. I hope you're doing well and had a wonderful summer. Maybe didn't even notice that I skipped one of the episodes this August, but I'm back. I'm back with another conversation. Today's conversation fits. The P of promotion, and I'm talking to Paulina Razzi, a communication strategist and [00:03:00] copywriter about effortless and authentic social media posts writing. If you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, well, a big warm welcome. We're all about humane business, humane marketing, humane selling. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven piece of marketing at humane. marketing. com. One page, that's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's and help you with your foundational clarity for your marketing and business. So, my friend Paulina Razzi is a writer, communication strategist, and trainer. With 20 years of experience as a journalist and communications consultant, she helps [00:04:00] businesses, projects, and professionals communicate their messages with clarity and confidence. Paulina's work focuses on breaking writing strategy into actionable pieces so that professionals and entrepreneurs can turn into. Effective content effortlessly and cut through the digital noise to share their message with people who matter. When not typing on her laptop, she can be found on the slopes of the Swiss Alps or spending time in nature with her family and friends. Yes, you guessed it, uh, Paulina is local here in Switzerland and we've actually, we're one of these people who have met in person. So that's always extra special. So here's what we talked about on this episode. Why writing social media posts can feel so daunting, how to find your unique voice and style in your social media posts without feeling like you're copying others, strategies for brainstorming ideas and generating fresh content for your posts. [00:05:00] Tips for maintaining consistency, and then a sneak peek of the frameworks that Paulina will share with us in our upcoming CoLab workshop on September 4th. So without further ado, let's dive in. Sarah: Hey Paulina, so good to see you and hang out with you for a bit to talk about social media posts. I'm very excited to have you here. Pauliina: Likewise. Thank you for having me, Sarah. Sarah: Wonderful. So we are doing a collab workshop together. And, uh, this time the topic is all around kind of like very pragmatic information around how do you structure and write, uh, those social media posts, which we know a lot of people are struggling with, right? It's, yeah. Is that also the feeling that you get? Like, because I think people are struggling with several things around this social media [00:06:00] presence kind of thing. Um, one of them, I think is consistency, but let's talk about consistency later. Let's first talk about this idea of. writing these posts. What do you see when you work with your clients? Why is that such a struggle for people? Pauliina: Well, writing is terrifying. I've been writing in one way or another, most of my career, and I can also relate on the emotional level to, to that struggle. And I see it in my client's lives and I experienced it in my own life as well. If not on a daily basis, regularly anyway, and that would, that would be maybe my first message that even though you are a professional writer, you can write a lot, but you can still sometimes feel that struggle because there's a lot at play there really when you're trying to write, especially when you write about yourself and your own work. And, um, and, uh, it's, it can be sensitive. It can be, [00:07:00] it can make you feel vulnerable. And there's a lot of authenticity at, uh, at play when you're writing about yourself, but, uh, but it can be, it can be overcome as well, when you, when you work through, through it, uh, well, enough, uh, enough, and when you develop different capabilities, capabilities around that. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, no, I hear you. I think, I think there's. There's this fear of really truly showing up and. You know, I have this, I I've, as you know, I've been, uh, my first business was a LinkedIn consultant. So I've been growing up on LinkedIn. And to me, it's not scary at all to completely make a fool of myself on LinkedIn anymore. But I have, uh, like one very good friend who's been on LinkedIn for years as well. But she's still. still kind of feels like, Oh, but this is the professional network. And can I really, truly be myself? And w you know, and so I think a lot of people have [00:08:00] that with LinkedIn, especially, um, and of course also with, with other platforms, but LinkedIn kind of has this heaviness to it still because of how it came about. And it's changed a lot, but. I think it's also because a lot of maybe our clients moved out of the corporate world, and so they had to kind of like, wear this professional mask, and now they're going into their own business, coaching, consulting, and all of a sudden they're, they're asked, To show up as authentic and, and it just kind of feels weird. Right? So I think one of the big things is like, how do I find my voice on these platforms? How do you help people find their voice? Pauliina: Absolutely. And I think you're onto something there, especially when you say about LinkedIn and how rapidly the platform has changed. So many of us might be feeling that we aren't, we haven't really fully caught [00:09:00] up yet. And, um, and when you, when you feel that way, finding your voice and knowing. What part of your voice you actually want to project might be a little bit tricky, and it comes to down to defining your strategy and setting your goals. When I see people struggling on LinkedIn or on other platforms, if we backpedal a little, is it can be for the lack of strategy. So not really knowing What to say what they're trying to achieve, not not being sure how they're going to reach that. That's a big building block. And if you don't have those questions, it might be very hard to do with confidently the other reason or the other part that people might be struggling with is the confidence that you that that you also maybe your friend might be suffering from not having the confidence or the courage to say what they want. Know what they need to say. And then the third third element. There is the practical practical part like how am I? How am I going to say, say [00:10:00] exactly, but you need the three or three of them so you can be consistent. You can be confident and that you can be clear about the message, knowing what you're going to say, finding the inner courage, the confidence to to project your voice and then the practice finding the ways the strategies, the template, the frameworks that work for you. And when you have all. All three in place, it gets a lot easier, but I would also like to say that it's okay if it doesn't always feel easy. Like some of, some, some of us might feel like I don't care if I make a complete fool out of myself. I've already done that. And for others, I have clients who've been very, very visible, very present for years, and they still get the wobble of it every, every now and then. And that can be part of the process as well. And that can be, that can be okay. Sarah: Yeah, I always encourage my, my change makers to, to embrace that role. Like that is truly the role of a change maker and change is not easy. Right. [00:11:00] And so it, it, it almost is part of the change making is that you have to put that message out there and yes, it's not going to be easy, but. It will get easier because everything gets easier by practice. So exactly. And you can Pauliina: get better at February. It might still feel scary at times, but I think it's also a good thing to go towards what's scary or what you're afraid of, because it tells people that you're doing something new. And it's also a part of finding that voice. If you, if you never feel scared, if you always feel super comfortable, maybe you're not fully using your voice or spreading your message. So that's, um. That's something to keep in mind as well. Sarah: Yeah, that just gave me goosebumps. I think that's such a good point because a lot of people who come to me for humane marketing, they tell me that they've just gone through the motions of marketing, meaning they've just gone through, you know, posting things kind of like they. Took some [00:12:00] class and some guru told them, well, this is how it works. This is how you have to do it, but without helping them to find their own voice. And so it's these empty posts that just feel like marketing messages. And, and that is it. Look, totally less scary, right? The scary thing, like you mentioned at the beginning is the vulnerability. Uh, but that's where the human connection and that's where you really resonate that this frequency level and not just like, oh, there's another marketer or there's another copy writer. So. You're totally right. It's like, if, if you haven't, if it doesn't feel scary, then ask yourself, well, are you really truly putting yourself in those posts or, or not? Yeah. Pauliina: Exactly. Exactly. And often what we often forget on social media is that authenticity and that connection, it's much more important than perfection. Like, you don't need to be the best writer out there. You don't need to write as well as [00:13:00] maybe some professional writers, writers do, but you need to have something, some, something of you in that message. So it resonates. And that's often a discussion I have with my clients and people in my network as well, because they might come to me and ask, like, could you write this for me? I could, but actually most of the time they do much, a much better job writing themselves for themselves. Even though it's maybe a little bit less. Perfect on the surface, or maybe the turn of the phrases aren't as polished as they could be, but their authenticity and their voice and their experience shines through. And it's much more powerful and it's much more important than the perfection, perfection of the message. Sarah: Yeah, that's so true. I want to come back to the three ingredients you shared, but what you just said also makes me think of AI and how You know, we could totally just now use ChatGPT or any other tool to have all our posts written [00:14:00] and we know we're good to go. But what you just mentioned is, is like, well, how is ChatGPT going to really, truly bring in your authentic self? It can, like, I'll have to admit it does a pretty, pretty good job, but you still have to come up with the. The topics you guys still have to come up with, you know, the experiences, Chachapiti doesn't know your life, you know, these little moments of storytelling that you share to connect. Uh, it doesn't know that. So, um, you can use probably AI as a tool to help you kind of fine tune some of your posts, but I would, yeah, I would probably say, don't just Give it all over to ChachiBT and say, Oh, just write my post because that's kind of probably the risk that we're going to run into that everything just feels like perfect. And, and then there's, yeah, there's less of that authenticity in there [00:15:00] again, I'm very much pro ChachiBT, but yeah, I wouldn't just hand it over, uh, to, to write my posts for me at all. Pauliina: No, I wouldn't either. And I think it can be a great sparring partner. It can be a great, uh, well, not a person, but a great tool to ask, like, how would you approach this topic? I'm writing about this. Am I missing something? What kind of an analogy would you use to describe this? Or kind of like spar with that? Especially if you work alone, it can be super helpful, but it only does a very mediocre job in writing for you. And like you said, like, it doesn't know the words you You use, it doesn't come up with creative expressions very often, unless you ask specifically. Um, so you need to, you, well, you need to leave some space for your personality. Definitely. Sarah: Yeah. All right. So getting back to the three ingredients you mentioned is confidence, strategy, And then the actual frameworks and just how to, to follow. So we're going to cover the how to and the frameworks [00:16:00] in, in our uh, workshop on September 7th. Uh, so if you're listening to this or watching us, we'd love to have you join us, humane. marketing forward slash workshop. Um, But we want to cover maybe, uh, uh, I think we talked a fair amount, uh, about confidence. Um, let's talk a little bit about strategy. So I think one of the things people struggle with is that they just, you know, open whatever social media platform it is and then go, what should I write? So how can we better approach this? How do you, Yeah. Help your clients with strategy. Pauliina: Well, the first question I'm helping my clients answer is what is your message? What is it that you bring to a table? What is it that you can help people with? What are your unique capabilities, your talents? What is special about you? So everything starts with what did you have? To get, then there's of course, a [00:17:00] question of who you are speaking to writing too. So you can tailor that message to be relevant for them. And then we come to a question of channels, like where to be present, where to reach those people, but it all starts with, what do you have to share? And, uh, focusing on that and nailing and nailing that is so crucial because if you don't know what you are going to say, what do you, what, what is the message you want to get across? Well, everything else becomes just very random. Sarah: Yeah, it's kind of this chicken and the egg thing that we often have. And, and it's funny because people like when I look at beginning, uh, coaches or, or, or business owners in general, they immediately want to go to social media, right, without doing the foundational work, the getting that clarity. We can be, yeah, we can be present on social media for years and years and nothing ever comes [00:18:00] out of it if we don't know what, what we're offering. We don't know who our clients are. We don't know where they are in their journey. So yeah, there's, there's a lot of information that needs to be in place before we ever go on social media. And we can actually kind of hurt. our reputation if we go out there too early and then looking from the outside in and look, it kind of gets completely confusing for people who are like, one day she's talking about this, the other day about that. It's like, what is she doing? Like, I Pauliina: don't get it. So exactly. And we can hurt ourselves in the process by burning ourselves out and spending a lot of energy on something that's not moving us forward. As forward at all. Like it is a little bit of this throwing spaghetti to a wall and seeing what sticks which can be if you just start shopping on social media channels before setting up a foundation. And then when you set up the strategy, it's really [00:19:00] deciding on what kind of spaghetti you're going to use and how long you're going to cook it for before you start start throwing it on a wall wall and that can really change everything. Of course, there's always that aspect of going out there and just trialing and seeing what works, but it's a whole another world when you do that strategically, and don't just just start somewhere and do exactly what you just described there. Yeah, Sarah: yeah, so true. So, I want us to give just a little sneak peek about the frameworks, because I think that's what people are, you know, it's nice to have the security of some kind of structure. And yes, we're still saying, well, Use the structure, but infuse your own voice, right? Don't just follow it to the dot, but I think it gives people that security, uh, to, to know, oh, okay, there's some kind of structure that I'm following. So without giving everything away, [00:20:00] because we would love people to join us for the workshop, but tell us a little bit about, um, these frameworks that you're using. Pauliina: Confidently and frameworks. Indeed, they can bring this additional layer of security. It's almost like a safety net. Always have something to fall back on and when you have your strategy sorted out, you can start using these templates in a way and creating maybe even your own templates and frameworks in a way that still allows your internal light light to shine. But one of the favorite favorite frameworks I like to use is it's called stair s t e a. And that's, um, that is something I like to use, especially when tapping into the emotional, emotional aspect of writing and emotional aspect of our reader's lives, because it allows us to look at the situation they're in, uh, the thoughts, the emotions, uh, they have about the situation, the actions they take, and then how you can help turn that, uh, [00:21:00] around so they get different results. So it's, uh, it's, it's a network I like, like using, especially when trying to reach, uh, reach, uh, the emotional aspect aspect in my readers, readers lives. And, uh, it's, uh, very practical in the sense that even though it sounds like a lot of, a lot of acronyms to begin with, when you really are really, um, use it a few times, you, uh, you can create a good library of templates for yourself. So Sarah: what do the letters stand for? S-T-E-A-R-S Pauliina: stands for situation, whether what, what's the situation, whether reader might be in t is, uh, about the thoughts they have about their situation, and e is about the emotion. So that allows you to put yourself self in their shoes and approach this, uh, the situation from their point of view. A refers to actions. What are the actions they typically take because of the thoughts and emotions? And what are the actions you could help them take as the professional [00:22:00] if they followed your guidance? And R is about the results. What are the results they get? And what are the results they could get if they use your method? So that's why it's, uh, it's, it can be very practical for, especially for service, service business owners and people selling different services. Sarah: Mm, yeah, that, that helps a lot to, to first kind of project yourself into the client's shoes and then, you know, using empathy and compassion, understanding their situation, the thoughts, what they're not saying as well, and then bringing it back to you and say, okay, um, here's the action I want you to take. And also. Here's a possible solution I have. Um, I love that. Yeah. And, and again, we're, we're going to apply that during our workshop and actually have a breakout room where you ask people to, you know, apply this framework and give them guidance on how to write a post and, and then [00:23:00] we can share them in the chat and you'll get feedback. I think, I think one thing we're doing well in our community is that we, you Create the time and space to apply, uh, what we're learning and not just, you know, content overloading our minds and go, Oh, there's like 10 frameworks and this is how it works. And, and now, you know, go off on your own and try to figure it out. I think, uh, we need more spaciousness and time to be able to actually integrate, uh, these, all this mind stuff that comes our way. So, um, Yeah, I really look forward to having this kind of hands on experimenting with your framework. So that sounds great. Any last tips on consistency? Because that's another thing that I think people struggle with is like, oh yeah, they can do like, you know, a month and then they get [00:24:00] frustrated and tired because there's not enough likes or not enough comments. Um, and then they. You know, feel like, oh, I tried it and it didn't work. So what would you say in terms of consistency is a good, good advice. Pauliina: When it comes to consistency, of course, the basics are the first building block. Again, the strategy, the confidence, having the, having the tools in place. So having that strategic block in place is, uh, is crucial because it's hard to be consistent if you don't really know where you're going and how you plan to get there. The other, uh, thing that's very important are routines. So how do you build your weeks and months so that you have time to create a content that Is consistent to you often when I start working with my clients, they come to me saying like, Oh, I could easily publish every day on LinkedIn or every other day. And then I asked, like, how long does it take you to create that content and they realize it might take them four hours, which is a big time [00:25:00] commitment for someone else who has other things on their plate as well. So being looking into your weeks and months and seeing whatever routines you can build in there so that you can really get. Your content done. And finally, being realistic with what consistent means to you. Consistent is not necessarily daily. Often on many channels, it means weekly, because if you don't do things often enough, you lose momentum. But it's good to remember that your consistency doesn't need to be someone else's consistency. It's always better to start slow and easy. Maybe even if If it means that you publish weekly on LinkedIn or even less often and then build it up from there so that rather than the going the other way around so trying to do it to do it daily and then falling off the wagon and getting all depressed and having to start all over again next month. Sarah: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think it's, it's, it's something that you could do more if you [00:26:00] enjoy it. And if it comes, becomes easier and easier, but if it's a drag, then why would you want to do it, you know, more often, uh, I mean, our, our businesses are supposed to be joyful and if social media posting is not your favorite thing in your business, well then reduce it to once per week and instead of Just going through the motions really take the time to create a more meaningful post rather than just a, you know, marketing slash sales post. I think exactly, Pauliina: exactly. And I think it's so important to work on things that are meaningful and rewarding for you as well, especially if you're a one person business, it changes when you start having a team around you, because then you can start outsourcing things that don't come. Naturally, but especially when you're on your own, you're writing about yourself. You are the face and the voice of your business. It's so important to do content and create content that's meaningful and natural to you as [00:27:00] well. Sarah: Yeah, Pauliina: yeah. Sarah: So good. Well, I really look forward to this. session in our community. Um, again, if you're listening, this was just kind of a teaser. I hope we gave you enough content still to, to make you understand how, yeah, how Paulina is approaching this topic. I only choose my workshop collaborators, uh, because we have aligned values. So definitely feel very good about that. So hope to have you join us on September 7th, uh, 2024 humane. marketing forward slash workshop. Paulina, any last words of wisdom regarding social media? Maybe, maybe I think I have listeners who are like, I'm just done with social media. So what would you tell them? Pauliina: Well, do whatever works for your business. If social media doesn't feel good for [00:28:00] you for any number of reasons and not good goes beyond like basic, basic wobbly feet, find other ways to connect with, with your audience and with your friends. Social media is not mandatory. It's a fantastic place to test different ideas, uh, to share your voice, share your message. But there are plenty of others if that doesn't feel like an authentic way for you to connect with the people you're trying to reach. Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for doing this and I can't wait to our workshop together. Pauliina: Thank you for having me, Sarah. And I look forward to diving in into all this with a human marketing circle in September. Thank you. Have a wonderful day. You too. Bye. Ep 195 outro: I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Paulina and her work at paulinarazzi. com. That's Paulina with two [00:29:00] I's. Uh, so P A U L I N A R A S I. com. She also has a free guide with content ideas and you find that at paulinarazzi. com forward slash free. And if you'd like to roll back your sleeves and get to know Helena's frameworks so you can apply them week after week to your social media posts, then join us for the next CoLab workshop on September 4th. I think I said September 7th once during the episode. So no, it's September 4th, a Wednesday, and you can sign up for a donation at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. These workshops are hosted in our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. And if you'd like to join that and then get access to all the collab workshops, you can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash [00:30:00] circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 9 5. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the Humane Business Manifesto, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much, as always, for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and your business. and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast we dive deep into the transformative power of Human Design with expert Jen Freeman. We'll explore what Human Design is, how it can be specifically applied to business and entrepreneurship, and how understanding your type can help you in making informed business decisions. Jen shares insights on how each type might approach business differently and highlights key aspects of Human Design that are particularly relevant to entrepreneurs. Join us for an inspiring conversation to help you create a business that is authentically aligned with who you are. Here's what we discussed in this episode: What Human Design is for those who might not be familiar with it. How Human Design can be applied specifically to business and entrepreneurship. How knowing one's type can help in business decisions. An overview of how each type might approach business differently. Specific aspects of Human Design that are more relevant to business, like authority or profile, or certain channels or gates. How understanding our own Human Design has influenced our business journeys (both the guest's and mine). A sneak preview of what will be shared at our Collab Workshop on August 7th. And so much more --- [00:00:00] video1299808011: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] [00:08:00] [00:09:00] Jen, it's so good to have you here. Welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Super happy to have this conversation with you. I feel like we, we've known each other for a long time. I just mentioned it in the intro, how we got to know one another and yeah, it's a pleasure to have you here. And even more to collaborate on this workshop together that we have coming up. So let's give people a little intro to well, human design and how we use it in business, but then we'll go much further into this during the workshop on August 7th. So why don't you start [00:10:00] Jen with explaining, maybe there's people who are listening who have never heard of human design. So I feel like yes, it's kind of in the zeitgeist, but maybe there's people who have not heard of it. So just kind of like a general introduction to human design. Okay, great. So the human design system was brought in by a gentleman named Rob, and he heard a voice and it said, are you ready? And for the next 9 straight days, he downloaded the system. I believe this was the early 80s and he tested it over the next 10 years. And he found it to be very accurate and began to slowly roll it out. And it grew to what it is today, where he's past, since past, but his school lives on, all the people he's trained. And the essence of it, it's based on something called the neutrino stream. And the neutrino is an infinitesimally small particle of mat that is a tiny bit of mass That comes from the sun and we filter these neutrino particles. And even in like our thumb, there's something [00:11:00] like 20 million in our phone at any given second. So it's part of the essence of being human is this interaction between our sun and how that interacts with us. So part of what human design system shows people is, is divided into types, which we'll talk about more in a bit. And it helps you to understand how your systems interacting with this neutrino stream and how you can truly. Work with it well to really live your best life. And so much of it has to do with how to really let go of conditioning, because we have something called centers. Some of them are open where we're deeply receiving conditioning, both from other people, the environment planets. And then there's ones that are called fix where we put out our own, I think of it, our own radio station. So human designs, the art of learning how to truly move correctly with your energy field in alignment with the whole. So it's not just you by yourself. Okay. You know, on your lonesome, it's really you inside all of life and how you can contribute both your well being and to the well being of life in the most optimal [00:12:00] manner. Yeah. It, it, it really is hard to describe it in such a short time, right? Because it's so complex. And when you first hear it and you hear like, What, this guy invented this and it was like a download and what, neutrino streams, what the heck is that? But yeah, it really has such depth that it took me years to get to the part, to get to the level where I'm at now of my understanding. And I've really only scratched the surface. But the reason I keep coming back to it is because. As you know, marketing, like we're human is all about starting from within, starting from who we are and then resonating with the right clients. And so that's why this tool and this knowledge is so important. So important to me, I feel like for people to really [00:13:00] understand who they are as you know, you and I both, both also believe in astrology and how that kind of helps us understand who we are, but human design just kind of adds another layer to that understanding. And yeah, over the years, I've. Really just gotten much more deeply into the, the study of human design in order to understand, like, like you mentioned, it's not just about me, but it's about me in relationship. To everything around us, because we're living in an ecosystem where we're constantly, you know, facing other people and in our business as well. And that's especially what we want to talk about today is like, well, how do we use a tool like that in, in business and in marketing maybe even. So I'd like you to pick up there. [00:14:00] Well, and one thing just as a bit. So, so for your listeners, I I first had my human design reading for myself 22 years ago, and I've worked with it with hundreds of people in 22 countries. So every color faith, I mean, everything, and it's just stayed true. So to me, it's describing something very fundamental, like our relationship to gravity. It's just there. So this is part of, I really. wholeheartedly invite everyone to test what we're about to talk about. This isn't something to just take in as a concept and believe. This is very much something to be like, Oh, and if it sparks your interest, if you feel curiosity, play with this, because it's really in starting to apply it, you really see the magic of it. So specifically to your point about marketing is the more you understand your type. And so there's four, there's four, arguably five types. So there's manifestors, There's generators, there's a subset called manifesting generators, there's projectors, and there's reflectors. And all four of these have different roles, different, [00:15:00] different ways that they work inside the field. So manifestors initiate. Now, I live in the States. And pretty much our whole culture, everyone's trained to be a manifesto. So, so, but the rest of the world, I'm sure y'all aren't quite in the insane level of capitalism. We are, but it's less than 10 percent of the population. So, in reality, only 10 percent of people are really meant to just be there. I've got an idea. I'm going to go do it. So, the manifestos, they're called energy beings and so are the generators. Now what this means by energy beings is they have access to energy to get stuff done. Right. But the manifestors, if you're a manifestor in business, then absolutely. I mean, in a lot of ways, it's amazing because you really can just go get stuff done like that, but you're not meant to actually work long term. It would really, it's, you're meant to initiate, but you don't have the energy to actually do the work. The generators. Are the worker bees. We're the ones. I'm a manifesting generator and Sarah, you're a generator, right? I'm a generator. Yeah. So we're the ones who [00:16:00] actually have it's correct. We have the amount of energy in our bodies that we are meant to work and we need to work. I mean, is when we work every day, we wake up, let's say, 100 Sarah units by the end of the day, you want to be down to almost 0. so you can truly rest. Right. So if you find out you're a generator in business. One of the key points is you need to wait to be initiated by life itself, by a manifestor. You need to wait, and this could be very challenging if you think you're supposed to be getting out there and initiating right away. Right? But let's just say that, and I, someone comes along and says, Hey, you know what? That recipe you've got, I think you have a really great bread baking business. You feel inside and we'll talk more about authority in a second, but you feel you get an answer you feel a yes Then it's like go for it begin the work begin to build it and it's you could say it's blessed by life, right? But if you have not been initiated by life and you try to manifest and you just do it out of nowhere There'll be a sense of [00:17:00] drudgery and difficulty and going uphill both ways in the snow, right? So the third type is the projectors. I want to just I want to just pause and think about this manifesting because It's interesting because kind of in this new age movement, there's all this talk about manifesting, right? Manifesting money, manifesting clients, manifesting anything. And it's always kind of like, well, we can create. Whatever we dream of, and we just manifest it, like, do you feel like there's a connection to the manifester type? And maybe again, that whole idea of you can manifest anything, that actually only applies to, To the manifestors. Great question. Or is that not the same kind of manifesting? Fantastic. And I've spent a long time looking at this. And so I, and part of what I think is important is to hold the human design language specifically in the container of human design, right? Because [00:18:00] they really mean something specific about a manifestor who's born in this kind of way. And at the same time, the new age culture, when it's talking about manifesting, So there's a, a universal truth of all human beings that what we can envision, like what, what I'm also trained as a shaman. So, so in, in that world, an indigenous language, there's something called the 1st attention and 2nd attention 1st attention is attention follows belief. So that basically means if we think that we'll never be able to make it. Our mind will filter information to see that we can't do it. Second attention is where attention follows energy. What's actually alive and real and happening. So to me, that question of manifestation, and I think better on my eyes, it has to do with truly understanding is something alive. If it's alive, then yes, you're going to be able to have it come true in a completely different way. But what I've seen, especially again from a state's perspective. [00:19:00] These egoic desires that are really coming from a wound, like when people are like, Oh, if I only manifest a sports car, then I'll be happy. Right. That's not the kind of manifesting we're talking about here. Right. We are all master creators. I mean, it's the nature of being a human being. We create, we create with our words, we create with our thoughts. So this is, and of course our actions within this framework of the human design context. We are looking at our, our, our self as energy beings or not energy beings and really getting, it's like being like, oh, okay, so I'm, I'm more of like a, a speaker and you're more of a plumber. Oh, you're a builder. It's more understanding how we're meant to move energetically in the whole. Right. So, so that's something that, and it's such a great question and it's such a deep topic. So the simplest way I could sum up what I said is to understand that all of us by our nature create, we are nonstop creators. It's what we [00:20:00] do. It's what it means to be alive. Right. Even the fact we eat food, it goes in and digests. We create our organs. We are, we are always creating, but from the standpoint of a manifester in the human design system, they are the only people truly meant to have an idea, get out of their chair and go make it happen without resistance. Got it. Yeah. Great. So, and so generators and manifesters are these energy beings? Yes. Yes. And the generators are approximately 70 percent of the population. Okay. Thank you. So really, the majority of people, we're living in a generator world, you could basically say, right? The projectors and the reflectors, there are other two types. Projectors are about 20 percent of the population, and they're called non energy beings. And so they're here to actually feel all the energy beings and then help direct them, like help see. To me, I think of them as the managers. You know, like really good managers, you know, where they can be like, Oh, wait, you should do this. Stop doing this. You should be over here. Right? [00:21:00] But they are, they need the energy being such as the generators, the manifestos. To actually invite them in to offer their truths. And then actually do the work projectors are not also meant to do the work, right? They can really exhaust themselves. And the very last is the super rare. They're like the unicorn here. They're less than 1%. They're the reflectors. And reflectors by their nature, they reflect whatever they're in contact with. So part of their role in the whole is to be able to report back. Like, how are we doing? So I have a reflector client I've been coaching for five years, and it's this never ending journey for her of really understanding where she places her attention and what she feels and how she can communicate it to people. They're very rare, but they're very powerful, those reflectors. Very important for all of us. Yeah, I used to have a virtual assistant who was a reflector, and it was just like Such a different human being yeah, you could, [00:22:00] you could immediately tell that there's something unique about her. Exactly. Yes. Yes. That's great. I'm just kind of reflecting. So I have a son who's a manifester. And yes, they're also very unique human beings not just because it's my son, but, but yeah, in terms of that energy. Right. And it's not, if I compare it maybe to the generator energy, it's not as stable. It's more fluctuating in terms of, you know, they get a lot of energy and they can work nonstop and then they take longer pauses in between, you know, until they get inspired again. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Where, what you said about the generators, it's kind of like, we're these working bees. And yeah, we get up every morning and have energy to work until until the night. And that kind of made me reflect that I remember Ram [00:23:00] mentioning at one point that maybe this will change as well, that maybe. And yeah, I'm just thinking back to the industrial revolution, like wondering if all these worker bees came into the world during the industrial revolution. And if that eventually will change with this new kind of business paradigm, world paradigm that we're trying to create, have you? Yeah. Yeah. No. So great. Yeah. What a great, so I feel like it's a metaphor switch as well. And I'm so glad you asked that because. the evolution. So the thing about generators is if they say, basically, if they don't listen to their own inner authority, and this is definitely outside of what we're doing the podcast, but just, so let's just know there's a specific way inside each type. And even like a subway where you need to listen to yourself to discover your own truth of what's correct for you. So if a generator does not do that correctly and says [00:24:00] yes to something, they can really become enslaved. Basically. So they have all this energy, but it's now been enslaved and they can be miserable, like truly miserable as many people I'm sure can relate to. But if they really listen to themselves and say yes to the correct opportunity, then it's like, like my dad started his own company when I was 15 and watching him just be so excited every day to get up, to build this company, it was like. It boundless energy. You can just work and work and work and work. Right. So versus, so it's like a, a really different sense when it's a yes, when it's truly correct for you, the energy, the work becomes like wonderful. Right. You know, whereas if it's really not right for you and you're staying in whatever, for whatever reason, right. Some jobs, some anything, then it's, then it really is that industrial revolution working 12 hours a day in the cotton mill vibe, like where you really have been like captured. And then put to work for someone else's idea. [00:25:00] That's not really helping you. So I'm really glad you asked that because that, especially the more that society is going through all societies, the world is going through the transformations that we know we're inside with climate change, with all sorts of things, this ability to discern what's correct for your energy. And then to actually go towards it is going to become straight up survival skills. You know, it's, it's so important because. The difference like I was a part of my when I can testify in my own chart. I was in the financial industry for 8 or 9 years when I first started doing this work. And I think it was important. I learned all of that. I've still used it all the time, my own business, but it was not the right fit for my chart at all. It felt terrible. I felt drained in every way. And when I finally reached this cathartic crisis point where I really had to choose to live my beliefs and to test all this with my, the fullness of my entire life, everything changed. And even though I've been an entrepreneur, you know, for 12 years now, and there's [00:26:00] been, of course, the ups and downs of that every day I get up and do what I love and I feel energy. Right. And that's a big difference. I think you're, you brought up something so crucial. The crisis that we're in right now, the poly crisis, right? It's not just the climate, it's all these other things as well. To, to. Be in the wrong job is a matter of survival right now. So, so if you feel completely frustrated with the state of the earth and you're still in a job that just kind of is so depressing, then, then, yeah, you, you find no more joy whatsoever in life because. Clearly looking outside is not going to give you that joy. So, so kind of coming full circle and going within and maybe pivoting to something that contributes to, [00:27:00] to creating change or things like that, that I find like there's never been a better moment to, to do that right now. And I think there's a lot of people who are pivoting out of just kind of the soul sucking job into something that. Yeah, it's part of the solution, right? Cause a lot of people kind of start to feel, Oh, they're actually part of the problem and not the solution. And so I think human design can really help them with that because they, you know, they tap into their strengths, into their superpowers and, and then really, yeah, feel much more fulfilled. Let's go back to the business conversation. So you, you mentioned authority just very shortly. So for, for, for me, for example, it's, it's to, yeah, listen to my gut, right? Listen to my intuition. And if it feels like a hell yes, then I'm supposed to be doing it. And if it's kind of like, I'm not sure about [00:28:00] it, then it's probably going to drag me into the completely wrong direction. And I'm going to feel frustration a lot of frustration and man, have I felt that? You and me both sister. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And so what kind of other authority types are there? Strategy, yeah, yeah, strategy and authority. They go together. So each type has their strategy, but then the authority. So there's so we'll discover the top 3. There's the splenic authority and that's people whose truth is designed to be in the moment and immediate. Yes or no. It's from the spleen. I think of it as the immune. Well, it is part of the immune system, but I also think of it as the most least sense of humor voice. So if you have a splenic authority, or, you know, someone with it, they tend to say things very strongly. So I had a friend where I'm like, Oh, do you want to have Thai? No, you know, it was like, okay. I'm not trying to make you be type, but later I understood, Oh, that was her spleen. That was [00:29:00] her immune system coming out of her throat. So the thing about the splenic authority is it's only once in the moment. So if people are not listening or overrided or trained to be, you know, good boy, good girl, it's very deep for them to begin to realize they have their truth immediately. And that they really listening would be really good for them. The second kind, which is what you described, that's the sacral authority. And that is really the gut knowing. And it comes through sound. And this is so important. It's not logical. So for all those people with fixed mind, or, you know, the people who want you to explain logically why it's a no, there is no logic. It's not linear. It's a different logic, but it's not like that. So when, like Sarah said, when she gets the hell, yes, it's your gut. Well, you'll, you'll hope you'll get an huh. There'll be a sound or there'll be an huh if it's not. And really that's the key point of not getting enslaved. If you are. Because that's part of being a generator is if you have a fixed acro by definition, you're either manifesting generator or generator. So, as someone who's done both, [00:30:00] my God, the difference. So really learning to trust that, even if people are like, actually, that's how I met you, Sarah, was that you put out your first initial of this program or your current, you know, is your, your very beginning and I kept getting it. Huh. Huh. But I was like. What? Like, you know, I was like, I don't have money for that right now. I would, but but it just kept coming and I finally got in touch with the last night being like, I just keep getting it. Yes. And it changed my whole life. I met all these wonderful people. It's just, so yeah. So trusting the gut, even if your mind gives you all sorts of noise about it. And then the thirds, the emotional, the sack, the, the solar plexus, emotional people, which I'm one. And part of what that means is we need at least 24 hours to come to our truth. Because our truth is emotional. And I think of it as an XY axis. And so each emotion on it's like on a, it's a wave. So, so that the more you realize someone like you could invite me to go to dinner at 9am, but I'm in a low and I'm like, Oh, I'll be too tired tomorrow at noon. I could be like, Oh, you know, it could be a good idea. [00:31:00] 3pm. I'm like, I should totally go to dinner by 6pm. I'm like, I still don't know. But if you go the full 24 hours, at least because big decisions can take longer for sure. You'll your truth will just emerge and it'll be so simple and clear. And it just, it's effortless. And there's none of those like obsessive compulsive regrets. You know, you don't like just go to do it and then you're like, should I have done it, but so really knowing you're, you're, you're with your splint. So I have all three as an example, but so because the emotionals, the most complex and the latest in evolution, I'm supposed to go with that one. Right. So, so if, even if you have all three, listen to them, but you go with the emotion and I can testify, absolutely. From the first day I had my reading 22 years ago, I followed that. Invitation to not make a decision until I'd really slept on it at least 24 hours. And my God, what a difference. And whenever I don't do that, for whatever reason, I'm always like, what am I thinking? So I can. And there's so many [00:32:00] decisions we make every day in our businesses, right? Should I invest in this program or should I launch a new thing? Or should I collaborate with this person? Like there's so many decisions and yeah, I think a lot of people are actually struggling with that. I never quite understood that because yeah, for me, it's just kind of like, I feel it. It's like, yeah, my head starts going yes or, or, or no. And then I just know. But yeah, for, for other authority or strategies, it's kind of like, well, you need to learn how to listen to, yeah, to the, to yourself and, and your voices. Yes. Yeah, there's a, there's another thing that we're, we don't have time to get into here because again, it's so complex, the system, but there's gates and then channels and circuits, and [00:33:00] I'm just wondering if you could pick one or two that are really interesting. Business related maybe more than others and feel free to talk about mine. That has to do with ambition. For example. Oh, okay. Great. Okay. So so what Sarah's referring to. So when you look at human design, you're looking and I think of it as a circuit board. So, so part of what you're looking at is how does the energy flow along the circuits? So if you have an entire channel, like what Sarah's talking about, it means that you have access to this channel all the time. So one of Sarah's important channels, it has to do with the ability to rise in business and the ability to bring new ideas and new concepts to the tribe. So, But by its nature, where it's positioned inside the, the actual body graph is what it's called. It's not connected to an actual energy center. So part of what Sarah's journey is, or is to really help people like that, even every [00:34:00] way she does her thing, she's presenting these ideas, but the people really need to come in and support her. And presenting those ideas like you need to be lifted up. It's like you can bring it out, but they need to come in. They need to participate, right? It's like a, and the more people understand that, that you're there to lead in this way or to initiate, to begin something like to really be like, Hey, we should do marketing better. Or we really need to stop doing this other way. But that's part of people getting that it's collaborative. So they need to come in and help you build it. Right. Which I think so amazing. I really love. Yeah. I love working with your chart. Another important channels, the channel of money, and that goes from the fixed heart center to the throat. And so the channel of money is, I mean, first of all, that's the, you know, every person's person's dream on a certain level, right? They want the channel of money, but the thing about the channel money is that. It's really understanding. So, so the 2 sides of it, each gate, there's 2 gates, and they come together to form a channel. It's kind of like in a relationship. You've got 1 person, 1 person in the [00:35:00] relationships of 3rd entity. So, in the channel of money, 1 side of it is called the King and the Queen. It's like, they're the, that's naturally that gate of the people that naturally just. Own resources on a certain level or they just are in charge, but from birth, not from democracy. That's another channel. But then the other gate is the caretaker of the estate. So the metaphor would be the king owns the land and then the actual caretaker of the state. So, if you have that whole channel by yourself. You actually need to bring in someone else. You need to act like the king or queen and bring in the caretaker. Cause if you try to do both roles, you'll go crazy. Like it's really, you can't do both effectively, but that's part of where partnering, really understanding where you need to bring in a partner to help you execute. And then you can make a ton of money, which is great. Right. And it's so, so, and the, the third one that keeps being like, do me, do me. So this one has to do with, it's from the spleen to the fixed ego, fixed heart center, and it's [00:36:00] all about the ability to sell to the tribe. So it's, this channel has, it's like, okay, we have, so Sarah brings the idea. Then this next channel actually helps pick it up and then it's like, okay, we can sell it for 1295 and this is how, so if you have that channel, you are a born salesperson. You totally know how to frame it, how to connect with people, how to really get them to see that this is important and they should invest their money in it. I mean, even just, it makes me smile. All three of those channels, they're just, they all have such specific functions. Yeah, I love that and, and I, I love how this really, again, brings us back to collaboration and partnership because we, we really, it does take a village to build a business and human design shows that because while I have one of those channels, I don't have the other two. And so that's why I, you know, I keep doing things in community and, and trying to yeah, rise [00:37:00] together. Yeah. And just understanding that it feels like much less heavy on my own shoulders, trying to do it all. I think that's the kind of the biggest takeaways that I've learned from human design. I remember when you did a reading for me, we kept doing these. These signs with our hands going, yeah, less resistance, you know, if you push less, Sarah, you'll get less resistance. And yeah, I keep, you know, remembering that because. It just, yeah, it helps us to become softer with ourselves. I think that's one of the things as well, because we just kind of accept who we are and yeah, tap into our strengths, but also realize that we have things that are just not in our design. And so we need to find partners for them. And that's actually where I love. I've done I love doing business partnership readings for that reason, or teams. [00:38:00] Because really helping them articulate and clarify. Oh, really? This person really is awesome at this, right? You know, and then this, so it really takes away a lot of. It's like that, that humility, like, in the best way, like, oh, I'm really good at this, but I'm not good at this. Right? And I can American culture. We're just taught. You're supposed to be good at everything. Somehow. It's a weakness. If you admit, you don't know something, right? Maybe more universal, but just speaking for my own cultural context. And I've seen with partnerships, especially like, you know, startups or, or people that are really like leading teams, the more they can really trust that they can really give these tasks to this person. And they're going to be much better at it than, you know, than they are. And then like you're saying that sense of relaxation, that sense of really getting to be like that phrase in your zone of genius. Yeah. Right. And that, that joy, and that, that's something that so as a manifesting generator, the, the difference just to, to tie it into the previous is that manifesting generators, they, they have the ability to manifest, but they have to wait [00:39:00] like the generator. So they have an enormous amount of energy, basically, which is what I am and learning to wait and really allow life to initiate me. And then just go for it. First of all, it has been amazing instead of trying to go for it. And then it just is not working. Right. But then second, really seeing the people, like, I have a woman I've consulted with for years. He's got that channel of the stories that knows how to sell it. And she just be like, oh, well, it's like this and this I'm like, genius. You know, instead of me trying to come up with it, where this person's like, oh, this is like breathing. It's so easy. I don't even. See why you'd pay me for this, but like, no, really let me pay you for this because I find very valuable. Right. And I, and it, even you could tell in my voice, it's just such joy. When you feel everybody happy because they're really doing the right thing and then they feel useful and needed and appreciated and yeah, it's, it's, it's the best. It really is the best. So good. I, I [00:40:00] kind of look down at the clock cause I'm like, okay, we need to, you know, kind of wrap it up, but I do want to give people a little preview of what we're going to be talking about on the collab workshop. Another collaboration, right? It's like, Well, I don't know enough to talk about human design. So I'm going to bring in my people with these collab workshops. So, so yeah, tell us a little bit about what we're going to be tackling in the, in the workshop. Great. So, so again, I went and just a serious thing, we know this is complex, but we're doing our best to make it at least palatable for an intro. So, so what we're going to be working on is something called profiles. And so the profiles. They really are even a more targeted, precise way of looking at your design and how your design is meant to interact with the whole. So, like, I'm what's called a 1 3 profile. We're the ones who get the party started. We, we initiate from, like, nothing. Like, we really are meant to. And again, [00:41:00] the metaphor aside of going into the virgin jungle, which I don't think we should be exploiting jungle, but just for metaphor purposes, we're the first person in there and we're the ones with the machete being like, what is this place? So we are just designed to get in there and really be on the front. That other types are designed to come in and then be like, oh, they're going to really survey the land. And then, oh, wait, they're going to be the ones that first pave the road. And then later on the line, the people who come in and really pave it. And then it's so the more you see where you are, like, I'm a true startup person. And the moment it starts to really form is when I need to hand it off. to the next profile, right? So, so we're going to look at, it's based on the hexagram of the I Ching. So the Chinese book of changes over 2000 year old, incredible descriptive system of yin yang theory. And we're going to look at each of the lines in the hexagram. And then we're going to look at how they relate to the different profiles. And it's, it's fat, it's very, it's precise. It's incredibly precise and so liberating to start to [00:42:00] understand your profile. Cause again, like Sarah had already mentioned. There's a lot of ways we get conditioned to try to be what we're not, and we can become highly critical of ourselves, or we can just not understand, well, why am I like this? Or why am I not, you know, especially like your sibling or what, you know, other people, why am I not like this person? But when you know your profile more clearly, not only does it give you the confidence to be yourself, it really shows you where you're going to shine and thrive. So in terms of business, again, like, like I know as a one three, I'm here to really help people begin, you know, and, and that beginning in many ways it spirals. So like, like you beginning to go deeper into human design. So you bring me in. So it's not just a linear idea of like at the very beginning and we never speak again. But I know that I can really help people begin really anything because that's what I'm really good at. Right. Whereas Sarah, you have the ability. So you and I both have the ability to get to the very bottom. That's part of what we love. But Sarah's designed to [00:43:00] universalize the message. So even right now, the fact this is her podcast, she's interviewing me so beautifully, she's doing her role to help her go to a larger audience. It's just so, it's so beautiful. And that was such a big aha for me because, you know, I kind of always hid behind this introvert title. And I thought, well, no introverts, they need to work one on one and in like small, safe, you know, circumstances. And so understanding this. Universalizing and seeing how that could work for me, even as an introvert, it was just like, Mind blowing. I'm like, Oh, I got to write books. Oh, I got to, you know, it's like, yeah, understanding that and, and writing these books, I mean, it's so much joy for me to, to put just all my, all the stuff that I've written. Constantly goes on in my head to just put it in a book and then say [00:44:00] universe, please, you know, I'm doing my part now. Yeah, you, you helped take it. I love that. That makes my heart smile hearing that. Cause that's exactly what I love about this. What I love about just doing it personally with people, but also just loving that it's moving more into the group mind that this is possible. And it's such a speeding. It's so it's so accelerate your learning curve as far as like, really being able to see yourself. Really see where you can shine, where you feel inspired. Like you're saying, cause the book's perfect. It's very introverted to write the book with yourself, but the book can go out and really become a message that travels far beyond the one on one with small people, right? Yeah, so good. Well, I look forward to unpacking all the profiles and then we're also going to do four readings that you're going to look at people's chart first and then, and then kind of analyze it from this business and, and marketing angle. [00:45:00] So can't, can't wait. What a treat. I really look forward to that. Thanks so much, Jen, for doing that. And so if. You are listening right now and you're like, Oh, I want to, you know, grab a seat right now and get my profile read. Well you can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. That's where you can sign up. We run these with small donations, so we'd love to see it there. We need to wrap up, Jen I look forward to continuing this conversation. Please, you have a, a great YouTube video that you'd like to share that is kind of a private YouTube video. So it's not just out there for anyone, but you're sharing it with us here with the listeners to kind of get this a little bit more, maybe structured intro to what we managed to do on the podcast. Yeah. Where can people find that? I guess I'll, I'll just put the link. That's probably the easiest. I'll put the link in the show [00:46:00] notes because it's a, it's a bit complex to, to share that. And it's a 35 minute introductory video that I shot for my clients because I, I realized just that I was saying basically, you know, similar things again and again. I was like, why don't I just put together a really holistic beginning for human design. So yeah, so it's meant for your listeners if they're interested to go deeper, to be able to get their feet wet. And really, again, I can't emphasize enough. It's all about playing with it and testing it and trying it out. This is about getting in the test tube. This is about really, really taking the reins of your life and being like, okay, how can I, how can I live the best life and how can this tool help me do it? Yeah. And, and once you're like really, you know, into it, then, then you can start looking at your kids charts and your parents charts. And it's just amazing. Amazing. I know completely. Yeah. So, well, thank you so much, Cher. I really appreciate the opportunity to visit with you. It's such a pleasure [00:47:00] to call you my friend and colleague. And thank you. Yeah, just mention your website quickly if people want to find out more about you. Yeah, I'm at Jen Freeman, F R E E M A N dot C O, and it's dot C O, not dot com. It's not a typo. And, and I love working with people. I do introductory sessions. I created my own method that combines human design, astrology, and two other systems, because I really like looking at the meta context. And also because I'm kind of crazy with data. You know, it would be enough, but I really love doing it for people and I do private coaching. Awesome. Wonderful. Well, yeah. Can't wait to continue this conversation on the workshop. Speak to you soon. Okay. Thank you. Bye [00:48:00] [00:49:00] Sarah.  

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

This week we are joined by the Polly Hearsey to explore the transformation of business towards greater consciousness. Polly shares with us how business can act as a form of consciousness, as well as practical steps for businesses to evolve alongside our growing awareness. We discuss ways to collaborate with nature, the benefits of aligning with natural rhythms, and offer valuable advice for solopreneurs and small business owners aiming to make their business more conscious and aligned with their values. Tune in to discover Polly's hopes for the future of conscious business and the crucial role of community and collaboration in this inspiring journey. This conversation aims to inspire and guide heart-centered entrepreneurs towards inner peace to create outer change. Polly and I talked about: How Polly defines Conscious Business How business acts as a form of consciousness Steps businesses can take to evolve alongside our growing consciousness Ways businesses can collaborate with nature Benefits of aligning with natural rhythms for both business and Mother Earth Advice for solopreneurs and small business owners to make their business more conscious and aligned with their personal values Hopes for the future in the realm of conscious business and how we can get there The role of community and collaboration in this journey And so much more --- Sarah: [00:00:00] Holly, thank you so much for being here on the Humane Marketing Podcast. It's good to have you with us. Polly: I'm, I'm, I'm so honored to be here. You know, I'm really looking forward to the conversation we're going to have. Thank you so much. Sarah: Me too. Yeah. It's been, it's been a, we've been in touch on, on LinkedIn and kind of seen each other's worlds. Right. Yeah. And then I came across this Not a meditation, but it was on insight timer, a short talk that you posted there about conscious business and, and just how you approach business. And I'm like, ah, now it's time, you know, I have to have her on the, on the podcast, so delighted to have you here. So we're going to be talking about. Conscious business, nature aligned business, kind of like all the things that you love to talk about. And I think that really clearly comes across. It's like, wow, she's passionate about this, right? So, [00:01:00] yeah. So maybe start with explaining what conscious business means to you. What, what all the things that you pack under this umbrella of conscious business. Polly: I, it's an interesting one because I think sometimes when we have terms that are upcoming in, in our world, then they mean so many different things to different people until they, they take on an accepted meaning. So for me, conscious business is really about understanding how we are consciously creating our businesses, how we're consciously contributing through our businesses. And so that takes it in, you know, how do we treat people? How do we treat the, the environment? How do we treat our, Own sense of wellbeing in terms of being an entrepreneur as well, because it's tough to be an entrepreneur and to be a leader of a business. It's, it's hard work and it can be very damaging to your self esteem in some ways, [00:02:00] particularly when you're being asked to do things that you're not comfortable with. I think, well, that's how I have to do it in order to be successful, but I don't like it, but I don't know that there's an alternative way. So I think that, that piece of being. Kind and conscious to yourself is as important to do as it is to be conscious of how you treat other people. And you know, for me that is if you are in a, you know, you are in a product-based business, then it's about your entire supply chain. How, how conscious are you of your entire supply chain? But if you're in a service-based, it's like how conscious are you of the way in which you're structuring your business and you are setting your business up. So there's a lot of sustainability in it, but it's also about why am I doing this? What, why am I, why have I started my business? So that's, that's what I really focus on is helping people understand why they've started their business. What was the driver? Because for the most part, we kind of skirt, skate on the surface a little bit, and we don't think about, you know, what, [00:03:00] what was that sort of like that soul calling that was really going on underneath my decision. And unearthing that so that you can understand that what you really want to do through your business is create a positive impact. And I've found that every time somebody really taps into that well of, of knowledge and knowing, then they come forward with a business that is really positive. So I think that that piece of understanding yourself and what drives you to want to do this. Helps you to discover the make conscious, the subconscious, unconscious reason that you actually started your business. So it means so many different things to me. I Sarah: love it because it's kind of like. Yeah, it's one of these buzzwords, almost nowadays, right? It's like authentic business, conscious business. What does that mean? It's kind of like, is it some people almost like put the spiritual business in there as well. So, so you're [00:04:00] right. It, it does. Depends on, on who you talk to. And it means different things. It sounds like for the two of us, it's, it's very aligned. I wrote down you know, consciousness of yourself, of others and mother nature. So that's what it means to me as well. It's like, first you start with yourself. That's what we do in, in humane marketing. Then you need to look at your relationship to others. Which includes mother nature and you touched upon sustainability and, and, you know, that's obviously a big part of of conscious business. But I actually find that the sustainability only people are often not conscious of who they are and, and themselves and relationship to others. And so it's a lot of, there's actually. It's not a healthy environment. At least it wasn't for me. I was kind of in that sustainably field for a while and I'm like, wow, it's [00:05:00] toxic in here and it doesn't feel good. So I believe it's because they're, they're haven't done so much on their own inner work. What do you think about it? Polly: Yeah, I think so. But also I think that there is a human, very human tendency to think we have a problem here, so I need to get into solution mode. So you get very into your head and you couldn't come up with a solution, but The thing that really strikes me about where business needs to go is that we need to tap into that well of knowing rather than knowledge that comes from our intuitive side. both: Because Polly: when you look at nature, for example, the complexity of the relationships in nature are so mind blowing that we can't approach that logically. It's just, you know, if you, if you think about how interconnected the Siberian tundra is to the Amazonian rainforest. Now, you, what, In a scientific way, we look at those as [00:06:00] isolated, but they're not. We've got these little micro ecosystems and then we've got these global ecosystems. And so I think that in order for us to function effectively as communities, as societies, and to function effectively as life forms on a planet that needs us to act a little bit more responsibly, then we have to tap into that intuitive side. And of course, people who are in a very scientific, logical space both: that Polly: they haven't, it's not, probably not even occurred to them that they need to do that, but they're still doing something positive, but they're not creating a conscious environment. around it. And I think that's where you and I sort of like really see things in the same way, is, is that we need to create a different environment. And that means changing how you think. It means not just changing how you act, you have to change how you feel as well. So you want to come into it with a feeling of self belief, actually, self belief that you can [00:07:00] make a difference. I think that is, that's the key. The number one stumbling block that people have, they have all this energy welling up inside them and there's things that they want to do. But the first big stumbling block is, Oh, can I really make a difference? Sarah: Yeah. And, and those are exactly the people that we need right now to have this courage and boldness to step up and bring and use business as this lever to make a difference, right? Yeah, so true. You. In this talk, you mentioned this shift that, you know, we kind of all, I think a lot of people that I talk to notice that there's some kind of shift going on. They can't really finger point it or they don't exactly know what's going on, but they're like, something is happening. So yeah. Talk to us a little bit about this consciousness shift. And what that means for our businesses and why maybe [00:08:00] so many people are unhappy with their business right now. So I Polly: think, I mean, I have to unwrap it. I mean, it's so, it's so complex, but I do think as we've got more technological and we've become more interconnected, but without the human connection that We've obviously got shorter attention spans. I mean, that's certainly, you know, you'll, you'll hear people talking about that in marketing settings, attention spans are getting shorter. So you need to box everything in and to, you know, get people's attention in shorter periods of time. And I think what is happening is the reaction to that. So it's not being articulated. It's not fully conscious yet. But the reaction to that is we need more meaning. We need more depth. We need more connection. We need more contact. We need to be seen as individuals. We need to be responded to as individuals. And if I look at the business, it's particularly the online business space, it has been absolutely spectacular. paint splattered with [00:09:00] blueprints and do these things and just, you know, this, this is how you do it. And, you know, you guaranteed success if you follow this, this process. I just think everyone's just had enough of that and they're fed up with this not being seen. As who they are. And if they're not being seen, then what they want to create isn't being seen. So I think that to me underpins the shifts, but there are some, you know, there are some very noticeable shifts in by a behavior engagement and interaction. All of that's changed. And I think we are now definitely moving into a space where depth is required. So I've been saying this a lot in my community is saying, The, the push is to go harder, shorter, faster, put out more and more and more and saying reverse that, go deeper, go slower, and you know, you're gonna have a better relationship. So you may not have thousands of likes, you may not have thousands of engagements, but the ones that you have are going to be [00:10:00] completely different quality. both: And I Polly: think that's what happens when you, when you start to believe that you can operate in a different way, you shift the baseline, the baseline of expectation, and that begins to shift the culture. So I think it's like this, we start the whole process from the very bottom, because we are never going to get big corporations to change their minds. We're not going to get governments to change their minds. The only way those are going to change their minds is when they see that everything underneath them has already changed. Sarah: Yeah. So. Yeah, the bottom up movement this time around. Yeah, definitely. I totally agree. I totally agree with the depth as well. And the, the meaning so, yeah, how, how can we then change our businesses? If we do kind of feel this emptiness, how do we change our businesses towards more meaning, towards, you know, more of these human interactions? Yeah, [00:11:00] take us there. Polly: Well, I think in terms of changing the business, the first thing you had, and this is an uncomfortable thing to do. The first thing you have to do, if you just got to the point where I've got so far and now I just feel empty, I'm not really in the game. I don't buy into the label that I've got. It's all feels. Kind of meaningless and I've just been chasing a metric in order to make myself feel successful. The first thing we have to do is actually sort of like unpack the business. The way I look at what I do is it's like, it's almost like take the pieces, take all the pieces apart and have them all there. Because what I've found is that there's Pieces of you that are missing from your business. You know, we all have these experiences. We have these perspectives. We develop these skillsets and we have these interests as well. And we're told to sort of focus and get really specific. But if we take all of the mechanics of our businesses to pieces, almost sort of. Metaphorically, you say, [00:12:00] well, actually there's space for that. That bit of you makes sense. And so taking people back to why that's important to them, what they've learned from it and what they're, what it's, what it's meant to them. how it's shaped them really, helps them to say, Oh, that's why I approached this other bit that I've always been working on in this particular way. So I've worked with a lot of people who've just, they've, they've reached a very high level in their industry and then just gone, no, I can't do it anymore. And they, they want to, they want to burn their businesses down at that point. And it's like, you don't need to burn it down because everything that you've learned is valid moving forward. You might not use it in the same way, but it shaped you in some way. And I think that's, that's one of the ways that we start. And the other thing is, I think it is really important to reflect on. How your business is functioning within your community, functioning within the business community is a wider thing. So it's interesting. I've listened to a few talks and sort of like round [00:13:00] tables on the shifts that are happening recently. And what I found really interesting from some of the big names, they'd be, you know, that we're talking sort of like. You know, quite established, large revenue businesses, but they're talking about unraveling it a lot. They've got these big teams, everything's automated and they're going, I need to unravel it. I need to actually start talking to people and making space to have those conversations. And they actually don't know how to do that. The beauty of it is if you're a bit smaller, is that you can, and you haven't got a large team and you haven't got a load of mechanics, That you need to sort of like account for and pay for, then you can actually start to do that through your philosophy, through your ethos. So that's one of the things I really work a lot with people on is their value system. both: Because if Polly: you've got your value system, it changes how you approach the whole creative process in business. And then you start to say, well, actually I can create anything I want to, I don't have to follow the model. [00:14:00] And that, I think, you know, coming back to self belief being one of the, the first stumbling blocks, the second one is, can I really do things completely differently? Yeah, you can, you can. Sarah: Yeah. And you mentioned big names, right? I think the last 15 years, that's all we've ever done, or most people have done. It's like, oh, there's these, you know, we can probably count them on two hands. These are the ones who made it. So now we need to all. Create the businesses just like them, and this is how it's done. And they'll sell you the 2, 000 course in, in how it's done. And yet those are the ones who are now, you know, they're not sharing it openly, but yeah, they're kind of hinting at the unraveling things and they're like, huh, people are not buying my online course anymore. I wonder why, you know, people Polly: don't want any more information. They've had too much Sarah: human connection in these courses. Right. So. Yeah. It's, it's so [00:15:00] interesting. There is Polly: definitely a slide happening, some of the big names are struggling to, you know, some of the, some of them are still doing really well. I mean, and for, for many of us, they would be like, still be very happy to be doing as well as they are at the moment, but they, of Sarah: course, but they also have much higher overhead. Oh yes. I mean, you know, they have insane neighborhoods, a lot of spendings and, and so they're now struggling with, you know. Yeah, Polly: yeah, yeah. And I, I think a very light agile business is important now. Ah, yeah. 'cause you're more responsive, much freer. If you can bootstrap a s a solution to something, then bootstrap it. Why get yourself anchored into spending hundreds, maybe thousands of pounds or euros or dollars a year. To have systems there that you don't actually need to have. Right. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I mean, it, it really depends on what you want for your business. And I do think, I was thinking about this this morning again, is [00:16:00] like this constant stuff, like you must hit six figures, you must hit seven figures, you may go multi seven figures or whatever. both: Right. Polly: And you just go, it, it's a nonsense statement. Right. Because if you take, Somebody hitting six figures in Australian dollars, they're earning significantly different to somebody hitting six figures in US dollars. And for us in the UK, it means doing twice what somebody in Australia is doing to, to, to get that. So it's a complete nonsense, but also takes no account of the cost of living in different countries. And so the benchmarks that we have, it's like, why do we have them? Yeah. They mean nothing. Right. It's so important to say, this is my business, this is what's important to me. And you'll never be able to do that unless you actually stop and say, who am I? What am I here to do? And who do I want to help? Sarah: Mm. Exactly. Polly: Three very simple questions. How do Sarah: I define success if it's not [00:17:00] the money part anymore, right? What is success for me? What does my life what I want my life to look like? How do I want to spend my days? My weeks? You know, yeah. What kind of metrics can I find there that are not money related? Polly: It's Sarah: interesting, Polly: isn't it? Because so many people talk about, Oh, let me show you how to get to your first job. five figure week or whatever, and that's all they talk about. And yet, if you ask a question to people about what does success mean to you, they won't say it's about money. Like one in a hundred will say it's money. Most will say it's about me feeling that I can express myself. It's feeling fulfilled, feeling like I'm making an impact, feeling like I'm helping people. So if that's what really matters to people, why are we still selling them ways to make money? Why aren't we selling them ways to find themselves? and express themselves and feel happy. Sarah: Yeah. And traditionally also people who have more money have [00:18:00] less time, which also feels like a really silly thing to strive for. It's like, well, you know, what if I don't even have time to spend that money anymore? It's like, what's the point? That story of, Polly: The fishermen on the beach with the executive. It's just like classic, it's like go all the way around in a circle. It's like, well, yeah, and I'm here exactly where I need to be without a fleet of fishing boats. Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. I, I tell the same story with an olive tree growth keeper in, in Sicily in the marketing like for human books. So same idea just with all of trees. Right. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with all of that. Let's, let's go and. You know, I just imagined what I want my life to look like. And immediately what come to me, came to mind is, well, nature outside. I want to be more outside. So let's head a little bit in that direction, [00:19:00] because that's also something you talk about is how to align your business with nature. So what do you work on with clients there? Polly: Well, it's an interesting one because I'm still, I don't think I'll ever feel that I've. Got a full understanding of what I'm doing that and I've got okay with that, but because I'm always going to learn a little bit more, but it's really about sort of like learning who we are in nature, learning how nature works, not to mimic it, but to remember that we are nature and therefore that we operate according to natural principles. There are no business. Principles that, you know, in the mainstream that are natural, they are all completely imposed and nature never thrives when you impose something on it, it always needs to come from within. So I think that's another thing. It's like bringing that process of coming from within. So I love sending, sending my clients out [00:20:00] into nature with their business questions, because if you just want to sit in a, in a quiet space with the thing that is bothering you the most, And then just look around a bit and see what solutions nature comes up with. You just go, okay, yeah, there's different ways of doing it. So it can be as simple as that, but also thinking about, you know, how do like in my membership, we were coming into a new season. We're going to be working on the voice and working with nature. So be working with the bullfinch, which is one of the finches and that, you know, they're renowned for their songs. And if you think about bird song, birds have functional calls and they have Aesthetic calls, you both: know, Polly: say, and we, we think of the voice as being something functional, or we think of the voice as being something aesthetic, but you know, there, there are two sides to that. So it's like learning lessons as simple as that, but what's the aesthetic of your voice? What's the function of your voice? How do you [00:21:00] balance function and aesthetic? Because there's no two, you can't mistake two different birds. Well, you probably can, but you know, the bird calls something, something as simple as that is profoundly influential in terms of how you think about it. And that's, that's where I'm playing at the moment. But I do have this belief that businesses can become part of the ecosystem. So at the moment we have this sustainability sort of like, I need to mitigate the impact of my business. on the environment. I believe that it's possible, and I don't know how yet, but I believe it's possible for businesses to become part of the ecosystem. But I do know that it comes back to who you are. and remembering your nature and remembering how to work with nature at an individual level in order that makes that possible. Does that make sense? Yeah. And that's part of the, [00:22:00] the knowing piece, knowing that that's possible, but also appreciating that I have absolutely no idea what that looks like yet. You sort of get little glimpses, glimpses of it. But You know, I have a client who, who makes bark flower essences and their space around the, where they make them, and it's not a factory, it's, you know, it's a very small, small unit, but the space around them is managed in a very particular way where it feels like the entire manufacturing and office space is part of that. So there's sort of like hints at, at that, but you know, I have an online business. What does that mean for me? both: And Polly: it means, how do I bring nature into my business? How do I contribute to nature through my business? And that's not, I do think that sort of like philanthropy and things like that. I'm not dissing it in any way. But I think that's a fix for [00:23:00] compensation, whereas we can be contributing in a very conscious way. Sarah: I love, I love your questioning because clearly if you would just say, well, here are the seven steps, you know, I would probably go, yeah, I don't know about that. So it's, again, I think everyone has to find out in a way for themselves, but they have to be open. To receiving the message and for example, what you just shared about the bird song. I, yeah, I don't know that I knew about the bird having two kinds of songs. So that, yeah, that's just kind of like, oh, that's really interesting. And then what I thought of is like, What I share about in the, in my marketing, like we're human program, we look at the marketing techniques that are unique for each individual. Right. And so people, some people will, will, [00:24:00] and we also look at the human design a little bit. And so some people will want to use their voice. Because maybe other people have told them, you have a nice voice or, you know, it's like you have this soothing voice or whatever. Like they just know that they want to use their voice. And, and so we, we, you know, we say, Oh, maybe you have a podcast or maybe you do videos or like, it's like, yeah, that is somehow, I guess. Related to nature, because it's how you are built, how, you know, your design is built. You were given a nice voice, and so why not use it in your, in your marketing, both: for Sarah: example. Yeah, absolutely. Polly: The thing that I come back to all the time is that nature, life is diversity. both: Right. Polly: There isn't one solution to everything. So I look at things like electric cars and just go, well, this clearly, we're not [00:25:00] listening to nature because nature does not have one solution across the entire globe. It has different solutions in different places. And that to me is a massive lesson for business that says that we need diversity in the business place. If we're going to see people as individuals and respond to people as individuals, then we need diversity in our businesses, diverse business models, diverse focuses, diverse niches, whatever. So we need to remember, and I think that's what we go to is nature, to learn that, is to learn how to be creative. Right. Yeah. I mean, we, we are on a rock floating in space that producing the most extraordinary diversity of life. And we forget that we're part of that diversity of life and that we're all individuals and all unique. And, you know, you look at any, any plant on the planet. You know, and there might be [00:26:00] thousands and thousands of the same plant, but they're not the same plants. They're individuals within that. And that's kind of, to me, is remembering that every, everything on, in, on this earth is an individual. And it has a, however you want to phrase it, it has a consciousness, it has an energy, it has a presence. in the whole, and we need to learn to value that. And I think anything that I can do to help people see what they'd never seen before is, is really helping because we, do we look that closely? You know, we got plant blindness. We look Sarah: outside, we look outside for solutions. That's the immediate reaction, usually. Polly: So anything that we can do to like, slow down and look more closely, I think is going to have a profound effect on the trajectory of consciousness and the trajectory of life on, on earth as well. both: So Polly: little things like that. So you can get very [00:27:00] frustrated about governments are so slow to change policy. But policy is about an imposition and people rebel against imposition. If it comes from within, if it's coming from a genuine place of this is me and this is what I want to do, then it becomes something that people want to do and it changes culture. It change, change, changes society from the inside out and then everything else has to follow suit. Otherwise it's completely out of step and Sarah: Yeah, we have huge power. We have so much power really do. And, and, and I just want to, I know you, you are of the same opinion because you have your community as well. So it's not that we're saying you need to be individual and not be in community, right? Because you're just. Your own lone wolf. That's not what we're saying. And I always look to astrology also. And we, we [00:28:00] have Pluto in Aquarius now, which represents this idea of the individual in community. So we can be completely, uniquely different. And yet, if we have the same values, we are together in community and are strong in community. Because it doesn't mean that we're uniquely different, that we can't find things in common, and that we can't create things, co create things in common. And that's the beauty of these communities, is that, because the old way was kind of like, top down, everybody needs to be the same to be in this six figure club, you know. And now it's like, no, everybody can be completely their own unique design. And yet we have a common worldview and yeah, that's, that's really the beauty of the times. Polly: And if you, if you do spend any time looking in nature, you'll see that it's collaborative, but that that's, it's structured on collaboration. We, [00:29:00] you have to look to see that. And I think people are beginning to look more. Vichy, if you look at I need to find a way to produce this as a video. So there's, it's, it's visual, but if you. If you take a stone, perfectly, or a sphere, or whatever, it's perfectly rounded, if you place 12 people around that, Each one of those has got a completely different perspective on the same thing. And that's what we need to value. So collaboration is really important. And actually the ability to deliver on a purpose, which might be, you and I have a very similar purpose. You know, we've got the same slight vision of where we're going. We can't do it on our own. It's actually strengthened by working together. So community to me is absolutely integral to recreating the vision of business. Really important. So you need to be a unique individual in a community and valued for that. There's a wonderful, it's just popped into my head. There's a [00:30:00] wonderful story that some African tribe where they, have a song that they sing to that individual. So that's, they don't have a name, they have a song. And at various points through their life, they sing them their song. So it's a unique song to that person. And that really speaks to me about how you, you value the individual. And the uniqueness of the individual, but that individual is part of a whole, it's part of a community and is necessary. And we've devalued our individual contributions to the level that people have this problem with self belief. both: But actually, Polly: we have huge amounts of power by connecting to ourselves and knowing who we are and then doing something about it. Sarah: Yeah, so if we bring this conversation full circle, it really feels to me like this consciousness really starts with knowing yourself, right? All this inner [00:31:00] work that you and I have been talking about for so many years, but it, it felt like people were like, not interested. And she's like, well, no, but I want the six figures. And I just want the clients. And it's like, no, but that you'll get there and you will get much better clients. You will feel much more aligned if you start from within. Polly: Yeah, absolutely. It changes the game completely because I say this to people all the time. And I think they're a little skeptical initially is that if you are really tapped into who you are and you're doing your thing. Then those clients will come to you with zero resistance. So all that training that we've had about how to overcome objections and making sure, you know, will people pay and all those things that have been drilled into people that made them really nervous and alarmed. both: Right. Polly: But doesn't happen when somebody says. I've sought you out and I want to work with you because I have seen what you've [00:32:00] produced. So, you know, producing content and stuff like that is important in terms of being able to get our message out to the world, but actually it's really just a, it's a portal through which people can move towards us. And makes it possible, like you said, you need to use your voice if your voice is there, you need to use your words if it's your words or, you know, you need to just use your face if that's what it is. There are lots of different ways, but we have to find our way that matches the energy of what we're trying to bring forward. Sarah: And I feel like what we're doing and people who do similar work is, it's just giving people the courage to use their voice because it's those hidden talents is those people who, who do good work that until now didn't get any of the visibility because they wanted nothing to do with the marketing stuff that they saw out there. And so what we're doing is just telling them, well, there's a different way to do it. You can do it. Align with nature. You can [00:33:00] align and do it align with who you are, right? Yeah. And I think Polly: one of the, our jobs because we've, we've been out front for a while that's not to say we're any better, but we've been out front for a while is that our job is to create a sense of safety in doing that. And I don't know about you, but I know that I've had some very sort of like uncomfortable, you know, spaces to move through personally in order to get myself comfortable with talking about, I mean, if you told me 10 years ago, I was going to be talking about Nate, you know, nature as a business mentor, I don't know. People laughed at us. Yeah, exactly. But so it's been not necessarily a comfortable process, but one of our jobs as mentors and supporting our communities is to create safety, to say it's okay. Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Create a community of people who are there to, you know, support each other because yeah, sometimes it's not enough if just one person tells you it's safe, but a community. Polly: We need [00:34:00] spaces where we feel safe. Sarah: Yeah. Polly: And we need spaces where we can talk about things that we may not feel safe to talk about or comfortable to talk about, or just worry that we won't be received because people would have a clue what we're talking about. And sometimes you just need to just go, you know, as we, you and I did when we, we had a conversation, we were just like, splurges all out. And it was okay because we both knew what we were going through. And so it's okay. So I think that is a really important piece to say, and that, you know, every person who steps forward and starts to use their voice then becomes a leader that other people find safety with. So it's the exponential effects of every single person who does this. We speed up the whole process of changing things for the better. Sarah: So good. Yeah, I can see the future clearly in front of me. It's beautiful. Please do share With people who are listening, where they can find out more about your work, your [00:35:00] community, your Insight Timer talks and meditations, all of that. Polly: Everything is accessible, I can't say the word, accessible through my website, which is polyhearsey. co. uk. So if you just go there, you've got the link straight to Insight Timer, you get linked through to my events. And if you want to join my mailing list and keep up to date, then I send out just one a week email a week. So just With my latest thoughts. So everything's fine. Sarah: This has been so much fun. We have to do it again. Thanks so much, Polly, for being on the show. Thank you so much for having me.

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

In this week's episode we sit down with Anne Rajoo to explore the concept of Peaceful Productivity. Anne shares the necessary mindset shifts to move from constant busyness to a more serene and effective work approach. We delve into practical strategies for identifying needle-moving actions, delegating tasks, and removing distractions, as well as essential advice for setting and maintaining boundaries between work and rest. Anne also highlights the importance of self-care in sustaining productivity and offers her recommended practices. Additionally, we cover how delegation can future-proof your business and how to view a Virtual Assistant as an investment in growth and peace rather than a cost. This episode aims to inspire and guide quietly rebellious entrepreneurs towards being more efficient while maintaining peace of mind, in line with humane marketing principles. In this episode we talked about: Anne's definition of Peaceful Productivity The necessary mindset shifts to move from constant busyness to peaceful productivity Strategies for identifying needle-moving actions and delegating or removing distractions Advice for setting and maintaining boundaries between work and rest The importance of self-care in sustaining productivity, and recommended practices How delegation can help future-proof our businesses Shifting perspective to see a VA not as a cost, but as an investment in growth and peace And so much more -- Peaceful Productivity Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded people. Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop. To hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at Humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing sales, general business building, or help with your big idea, like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Welcome back friends. Today I'm talking to Anne Rajoux about peaceful productivity. I put it under partnership because you're either partnering with yourself to be more productive or you're delegating some tasks and partnering with someone else. Before I tell you a bit more about Anne, just a quick plug and reminder that if you're listening to this on the day that it comes out, June 28th, you have two more days to take advantage of the 400 off with the super early bird for the Marketing Like We're Human [00:03:00] program. As of June August 22nd, I'll take another cohort through my flagship program that goes really deep into creating your foundational marketing clarity by starting with yourself and bringing more of you to your marketing. And that's actually not just for Beginning entrepreneurs, often the people who come to the program, they're already two or three years in, because it's something that we kind of don't have time when we're first starting out. We're just putting quickly our website together and, you know, then immediately go on Facebook or LinkedIn or Instagram. And we forget about that foundational clarity, especially making sure that it. It comes from within. It comes from who we are. So it really is a transformational program that helps you grow into that person that achieves the goals that you set yourself. People ask me about the outcomes. [00:04:00] Yes. You know, it's about resonance with clients and yes, you will get more clients because you grow into that person that can get more clients. So it's about marketing, but it's so much more. It's so much deeper. Have a look at the details humane dot marketing forward slash program and you find an orange button there to book a call with me Do that as soon as possible Again, if you're listening before June 30th You should get the 400 off and if you're listening to this in July, you still benefit from the early bird, which is 200 of the group rate and of course if you're Since you're listening to this podcast, you're really already familiar with the seven Ps and that's what we go into depth in, and it's a hybrid program, so there's a, a video piece to the program with extensive workbooks. I've worked on this program for a whole year in 2019, ran through it with three [00:05:00] beta groups, so it's a solid. Really a solid program. And you can see that in the case studies and testimonials that you find on this page. I'd love to have you in the group. I think if you're listening to this podcast, you know what humane marketing is all about. You know that, you know, we're creating change and to create that change, well, you need to bring it out there into your marketing, your worldview, your values, more of you, all of that. Okay, back to Anne. So Anne is a creative force behind peaceful productivity with the goal to guide dynamic and ambitious women on a journey towards a mindful mastery of work and life, reshaping the way we perceive productivity. Additionally, she's the founder of virtual Virtufully a boutique launch VA agency that empowers female entrepreneurs to introduce their products, services, and [00:06:00] programs in a peaceful yet impactful way with support, compassion, and integrity. Anne's dream of living an extraordinary life has brought her from a tiny village in East Germany to London and eight years ago to Mauritius, where she lives with her husband and two boys. She's on a mission to join forces to redefine success and create a harmonious blend of professional achievement and success. And personal fulfillment and, and I talked about humane business and, you know, what that means for her. And I'm going to include her story in, in the new book that's coming up. And then from there. We're like, she, she was telling me about peaceful productivity and you can tell from the bio that our worldviews are just so much aligned. So in this episode, we talked about Anne's definition of peaceful productivity, the necessary mindset shifts to move from [00:07:00] constant busyness to peacefulness. To peaceful productivity strategies for identifying needle moving actions and delegating or removing distractions advice for setting and maintaining boundaries between work and rest, the importance of self care in sustaining productivity and recommended practices, how delegation can help future proof our businesses, and then shifting perspective to see a VA not as a cost, but But as an investment in growth and peace, I hope you'll enjoy this episode as much as Anne and I enjoyed recording it. Hi Anne, how are you? It's so good to have you on the podcast. Anne: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here, Sarah. Sarah: Yeah, it's lovely to have you. And this, as we were sharing before we hit record this topic of peaceful productivity, I think [00:08:00] it's just so needed right now. You and I had a little conversation about the third book that I'm writing about business, like we're human and how that really fits in with peaceful productivity. Right. And that's why I, I wanted to have this conversation with you. So why don't you start by sharing how you define peaceful productivity? Like, what does that Anne: mean for you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, it's so interesting. It's, it's still very much an evolving concept and journey for myself, but really it's, it's this intersection between the doing and creating the output and achieving the goals that we've set, creating the input that we're here in the world to, to create, but also maybe not doing as much and doing more in the sense of enjoying life and enjoying the moment, being present, really tuning into what lights [00:09:00] me up and what are things that I don't really like to do or want to do and, and, and focusing on this mix. Yes. Okay. We, we have to create some sort of work and maybe have a routine and, and have some outcome, but at the same time, there's more to being productive than just showing, oh, I hit my goals. I've ticked the boxes. I've crossed out all the to do's on my list, because at the end of the day, if we don't have that balance, Then we often hit burnout. So many people have gone through that. I've gone through that myself several times. So it's this mixture of the doing that being, and, and just changing the mindset about what it means to be productive. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I love that so much. And I think there's, there's so much pressure. On this productivity, you know, yes, you were sharing just before that you were in a corporate job. And so there's the, that kind of [00:10:00] pressure there where, you know, productivity is linked to how you climb up the ladder, but then funnily enough, most entrepreneurs then take that with them into entrepreneurship. Right. And it's not like we say, Oh, now I'm, I'm my own boss and now I can, you know, decide how I'm going to be productive. No, we still have this idea of, no, I need to work at least eight, if not 10 hours per day and do all of these things. So. It's, it's so true. It's really this mindset shift that we, we need to, we need to make in order to, yeah, make it a peaceful productivity. So yeah, it's so, so, so relevant. So how do you feel with the work that you're doing with, with your clients? How do you feel about the societal shift? Pressure, like, does that come over in your conversations with clients? Is that a thing that they often mention? Anne: Yeah. I [00:11:00] mean, it's really often conversations of like, and there's just too much to do. I have all these ideas. I have all these other responsibilities. Most of my clients are moms who have a business and it's just, it's constantly feeling like there is not enough time in the day. There's too many things to do. There's all this pressure of like, Oh, Business should be done in this certain way, because that's how people are used to doing business. You've got to show up consistently, and you have, it's all these halves that we, we see elsewhere, and, and you work with people, I mean, like, I mean, I'm totally into coaching, and I have. Support and all of that. But quite often I feel like a lot of people also kind of get a bit confused with, you should be doing it like this and that's the process. And if you don't do it, then you do it wrong or you're not going to achieve the outcome. And it's all these like mixed messages that we receive. And then that in a [00:12:00] sense of like, it's not working for me. This is not the life that I want to build. This is not why I came into business. And it's, it's a lot of that, like feeling. Overwhelmed, feeling like just constantly too much to do, not knowing where to start, and then feeling quite confused. And yeah, it was so You know, going, going down on, on yourself, like a lot of women have that tendency of being quite negative. They're just not working hard enough. Or today you took too much time to clean the kitchen instead of doing that thing. And like all that inner talk that we have. And that's a lot of conversations that I hear. And a lot of women are pretty fed up with that constant inner dialogue. And this feeling of like just never achieving. Or never Coming up to that level of the expectations they have on themselves or also that society has on them And just yeah, not feeling like they holding up with that Grand image [00:13:00] that we we should represent today that women can do so many things and we couldn't do it all We have it all and they don't feel like that really Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, so many things you said resonated. It's this idea of the shoulds and and I've also this idea of perfectionism. What comes up for me also in the entrepreneurial world is this image that everything should be free. You know, we should have all these free things and free content and content creation, content columns. All of this stuff. Production that we're creating that is not paid time and that over the last 15 years has been kind of Like put in the spotlight as that's just how you are supposed to run a business as an entrepreneur. And when you kind of counter position that with someone who is in a paid job, it, it, it's, it's like, if you think about it, it's [00:14:00] crazy how much time as entrepreneurs, we are supposedly just being productive for free compared to someone who has a paid job. Right. Right. And I think that's part of also my revolution in terms of the humane business, humane marketing, it's like, Well, who says we have to spend all of this time for free productivity, right? Like I can, I'm my own boss, you're your own boss. So we decide where it ends. Yes, obviously it's a good thing and I still am for that, that there's free offers. But, but there's a limit to it because otherwise we burn out. So right now we're, we're hosting this expo in the humane marketing circle, and it's kind of like a summit. But when you look at these other summits out there and you then talk to the summit hosts after the summit, they're all exhausted and burned [00:15:00] out. I know because I've been there, like I've hosted five summits. You too. And it's exhausting and it's all for free. And it's like, in the end, also when you ask them, honestly, what did you get up? Yes. Lots of contacts, but not really, you know, the money equation doesn't always really work out. So it's just kind of like questioning all our assumptions, I guess as well. Right. So having that conversation, like you said. Well, is this working for you? And if it isn't, how are you going to do it differently? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Anne: Yeah. For me, this brought up so many more societal thoughts there as well, because obviously as women, we are, we are often raised to give, you know, to take care of other people, again, give free content, give. Free, whatever it is. And also this whole money mindset thing. A lot of women struggle with me included, you know, like how much is my home, but what's my worth, [00:16:00] how much can I charge and what's too much. And I want to be accessible to many people because I want to change the world. I mean, this is a lot of conversations I have, and that goes in my, my own dialogue as well, and I want to make it. Available for the greater good, but then at the end of the day, yeah, the time and money equation doesn't always work out very well. So those things and again, it's like sometimes you have to be a bit rebellious in your sense to be like, okay, yeah, this is I see a lot of people do it. Like this, it's not working for me. I've got to do it differently. And that can be uncomfortable Sarah: and Anne: challenging to actually go and do it. But this is exactly what, why I came up with peaceful productivity because yes, I love being productive, but the way I've been doing it was just not working at all. So something was missing and that's the peaceful part. And like, just what you described in the marketing world as well, it's not always working properly and it can definitely be improved and changed. Sarah: [00:17:00] I want to go into, you know, your framework of the peaceful productivity, but beforehand I just also want to mention a book that we both love which is essentialism by Greg McCown. It's still my absolute favorite business book. And, and you said you loved it as well. So, so what kind of. takeaways have you implemented from that book or what were your main aha moments from reading that book? Anne: I think for me it was really bridging this thing of, okay, I've got, I'm, I'm very multi passionate and very multi skilled and I have, and I enjoy having lots of projects going on, but at the same time, always refocusing on like, What's the day to day? How do I feel? And what's really essential to making another step towards the goal and always bringing myself back to that is that really? Should I really be doing that? And something that I've really learned through my work where [00:18:00] I'm also running a virtual assistance agency is like looking at like, what am I doing? And is that really my job? Or is there someone else better suited for that? And how can I use my time better? And for me that spills into my life as well. As a mom of two children I spend a lot of time with my children because that's how, my choice that I'm making. But it's also sometimes, you know, Going back, is it essential for me to be right there with them focused, or is it okay for them to do whatever they're doing, even if it's on the tablet for a little bit, so that I can do my work? It's like really always tuning in. Is it essential? I love the word essential, and then just really looking at the things I'm doing, and then getting rid of the stuff that is not essential. Like really getting rid of it, removing it entirely, or piling it up somewhere else for that time, when it's the right time to look at these things. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. I love that. And it's similar for me. I love how you differentiated, you know, [00:19:00] business and work to me. It's almost like. They've become one. So it's like the, the, the essential things that I say yes to in work always need to align with the essential things in, in, in my personal life. Right. And so it's very similar to, to what you shared. And I think the one thing also that I take away from that. So it's, it's a, it's very much about decision making. This book is helping you with, like, every time you need to make a decision in your business or in your life, you're going to go back to, is this essential? And I think what he shares also, it's, it's quite easy to, or it's, it gets easier with time to say no to the non essential things. But when you're really mastering it is when you can say no to even things that do matter to you, but you just know that right now is not the right time. Right. And so that's what you said [00:20:00] before. It's like, okay, put them to another folder or like, not now, but, but later or never like, or never because you just know, no, this is not my thing. Not in this lifetime. Exactly. Yeah. True. Yeah. Wonderful. Okay. Well, let's move on to your framework of peaceful productivity. Tell us a little bit about how you work with people through this idea of being more productive, but in a peaceful way. Anne: Yeah. So for me, a peaceful productivity has three pillars. One is the productivity tools, hacks, techniques, whatever you want to call them, all these You know, applications to Pomodoro technique, finding your high performance time, like we all different in like, some people work better in the morning. Some people work better later in the afternoon or evening, like really looking at, you know, what are the [00:21:00] things that work for me, trying some on for size and see what fits and then letting go of others, because not, not one technique works for everyone. Also like looking at what phase in your life are you in, what, what You know, what does your day look like and how can you make it more productive using the tools and techniques that are available? And then there's the mindset, which is a lot of what, what we just talked about, the societal beliefs that we have, you know, ingrained in us, the beliefs That we have developed over time, like, you know, often attaching our well value and worth to our output and looking at what's there that maybe is not working quite well and what's there that we maybe have to change. And then the third pillar is creativity, because for me, creativity is essential. Personally, I get a lot of energy from doing something creative, so it could really be doing the creative stuff and being like drawing and making, but you don't have to be an artist. So really. [00:22:00] Identify yourself as a creative. The creativity can also be in terms of, let's try something different. Let's play around with what we have. Today looks like that. What technique can I put in here? What mindset will I look at today? And just piling it up in a big, You know, pot and mixing it up and just be creative about it and see what the outcome is problem solving. Obviously, we all mostly know that creativity helps with problems problem solving. So it's that part of like playful and just trying things that maybe you haven't tried before because that's when things could shift like, Oh, Interesting. That was actually quite nice. And I didn't expect that to work so well for me. Let's do, let's focus on that and let's hone in on that. So it's really these three elements. And I work with, with clients, mostly one on one where we have a sort of audit or assessment of like, what's there right now, going in all the different pillars that I've just mentioned. Then we [00:23:00] come together, we have a conversation, we share some, You know, thoughts and tips that I have gained over the period of time that I've been doing that and I help my clients to implement then because obviously we have a lot of knowledge, but if we don't go and You know, find a way to have that going on a daily basis. Not, not much is going to change. So it's that process of like identify what's happening right now, see what can be changed and improved and then implementing and refining. And that's my camera gone again, because you're back. Sarah: That's yeah, that's, that's great. I love how you combine the doing. Or, or more like the. The left brain, which is the tools and the strategies with the right brain, which is the creativity, right? Because I think kind of in the traditional way that I've seen people talk about productivity, it's mainly like. Left brain, it's like, you know, Excel spreadsheets [00:24:00] in that kind of more, yeah, left brain approach. And I love how you bring in the creativity, which makes it much more fun for your clients to, yeah, to be productive. I love that. Yeah. Can you, maybe you mentioned the Pomodoro technique. Can you maybe, well, for people who don't know what that is, share about that. And then maybe you have one other strategy that you, or tool that, that you usually give clients and would like to share here. Anne: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So Pomodoro is this concept of you work for a stretch of, I believe, 20 minutes, and then you take a break and then you go back to work and you take a break and so on and so on. And, and theoretically you would put on a timer and you literally just have that chunk of work. time to work, which is interesting because what really happens is that if we allow an hour for a task, the task likely is going to take an hour. If we say, okay, I only have 20 minutes to work on this. We, we [00:25:00] actually might achieve that task in the 20 minutes, or we break it down in different chunks because our brain needs that break. The mistake that a lot of us make, and I still sometimes make, is that we try to focus so hard and really just work through it and push through the job at hand so that we can take it off the to do list, but our brain doesn't quite work so well, so we get into these dips of focus time and Performance and that's when taking little breaks in between really increases the brain function and the work that we can achieve. So personally, I don't do the Pomodoro technique. I work more in 90 minutes chunks because that's kind of works better for my, for my day and how it's set up because my day is very split into morning work, afternoon kids and a little bit of evening, evening work. But yeah, it's again, it's like this. I've tried the Pomodoro. I didn't quite like it. I find the 90 minutes a bit better for me. But then the other thing that I [00:26:00] really enjoy and that has changed a lot for me is the whole idea of making a plan. I'm a planner. That's what I am, who I am. And I love spreadsheets. But I, I don't like making a whole year of plan has never worked for me because I would lose track and would be like, Oh yeah. You know, I still have six months until December. I'll do it one day and then I never got to do it. But now I really, I look at three month planning chunks, and then I create a monthly plan, a weekly plan. Yeah, monthly, weekly. And I have my daily like morning rituals where I sit down and I look at the week and I'm like, okay, what am I going to do today? And it's breaking it down and taking the intentional time. I mean, that's like 5 to 10 minutes per day, maybe where I really look at the planning side of things. And I select. The top three priorities that are kind of my non negotiables for the day and then a few other things that [00:27:00] I think I could chunk in. And I always have three sort of self care, creative, joyful things that I put on my list because again, that part is really, really important to feel peaceful. But that really has helped me so much of not feeling this constant, Oh, what am I doing today? Hey, where am I even going to start? Where was where was I with this project? And then at the end of the month you kind of look at the things you've done and like yeah I've done a lot. I've worked a lot, but I didn't actually achieve the goal that I was set to achieve and that's happened to me a lot of like constantly working but not getting to where I wanted to get because I lost sight of What's the plan? So yeah, that's really powerful for me Sarah: Yeah, I love that so much. And I have a similar approach with the, you know, breaking down the months. For me it's more like because of my, my, the way I run my programs. So it's very much backwards planning from day one. Okay, [00:28:00] here's where I run my program, what needs to happen to leading towards that program, and then everything daily and weekly activities run around these programs. Right? And, and so I, I really agree with that, that we need to always be, and, and I, on my, on my daily planner. I have like the top one says the big goal, you know, it's like, this is, yeah, this is what I'm working towards. And, and, and then be reminded of that because yeah, otherwise you're constantly putting out fires and, you know, spending tons of times in email without actually getting to anywhere. And what I like also about having those three, sometimes it's four priorities of the day. Then when you have reached these priorities and I tried to always not make them like this big giant thing that I know I cannot accomplish in a day, then, you know, you [00:29:00] can actually turn off the computer after these three or four things. Right. And then that feels good where otherwise you never actually feel like you've done enough because you haven't given yourself a container. So, yeah, I love that very much. What you shared. And then. The, the, the peaceful parts, the, you know, self care things. I do have, no, I don't have that. I have a mantra on mine, which I sometimes kind of just kind of give myself a little, you know, energy boost, but, but I like the way how you say, okay, what, what kind of fun thing I'm, am I doing that's actually on my Google calendar, I always have my, I go for a daily walk. That's blocked out or I have the gym. So, so, but I, I'll add them on that, on that daily printout as well. I like that. I love Anne: the ticking off, you know, like I've done it and I need to write it down on my list because I'm that kind of person who will first thing, drop all the, the fun and the, the, the [00:30:00] self care things because I'm so much like, Oh, I want to make, like, I just love what I'm doing. And I love. Creating in that way that I'm the first to forget, like to walk and to eat and I need to write it down on the list to make sure that, you know, I remind myself, this is also very important. This is important Sarah: to you. Yeah, yeah, it's wonderful. You mentioned earlier that you're also running a virtual assistant business or agency, right? So. In a way that probably fits into this conversation very well, because what we just shared is all about being productive, but also kind of demonstrating. Well, you can't do it all right. Like, there's just so much. to do to run a business that it's actually a very smart thing to work with someone else who enjoys doing the small things that you don't have time to. And so that's what, what [00:31:00] you're doing also with your VA business. I do feel that I, I do. I feel like that's one of the things that I did right from the get go. I've been working with VAs for 15 years. There's so many things I didn't do, but that one I did well. And yet I, I still find a lot of resistance from entrepreneurs because they see it as an expense, right? And it is. You know, yes, you have to have the money, but it's this chicken and the egg thing. Like, you know, when do I have enough money? And so, yeah, talk to us about that, how we can shift this mindset for people do not see it as an expense, but as an investment in their business. Yeah, exactly. Anne: Totally. I mean, the investment really is in. Your own time and buying back your own time. So if you feel that there's just too much to do, I have all these great ideas, but I never have enough time. Well, then [00:32:00] it's perfect to invest. And it doesn't have to be a full time role and, and, you know, one VA doing hours and hours of work. VAs can work for just a few hours a week and they can take off a few things off your plate that really you don't have to do because they don't require you as the person, as the face of your business. To execute that task, especially the admin things. I mean, I, I really don't enjoy admin. So I definitely give that to BAs. I've always have, because it's just not what I enjoy. And why would I want to spend my precious energy and precious time on the things that I don't like doing? This is exactly what I used to do in a corporate job where you just had to do it because your boss told you, well, now I have the Freedom as the boss of myself to decide which task I do and which task I give to the team. But is this resistance of like, okay, it's going to cost me money. Is the person really going to do it as well as I can, because I'm, you know, I have my certain way and I have my [00:33:00] very high standards. That's the perfectionist that comes through in a lot of people. But at the end of the day, you don't like, again, you don't necessarily give away the very precious task. You give away some tasks that are. Necessary to run your business. They are not what you have to do as like your expertise, your skill. And there's someone else who can probably do it better, faster, and who enjoys it. Like you said, there's people who enjoy these kinds of things versus you might just be really good at something else. And it doesn't have to be many hours. I mean, this is also the perception that, okay, I've got to give a VA a stable number of hours, a stable task. It could be a VA who comes in for a certain project. For example, I don't know, for your book writing, I'm sure there is tasks that you don't do on a daily basis, but you do it because you have your book to create, and then the VA can support you on a project, and then next month you don't work with the VA. It's all possible. It's just a way of, a question of reaching out and [00:34:00] finding the right person. Sarah: Right. I think maybe it's a little bit about this fear. Well, how am I going to find the right person? Right. And, and then I, I do remember in the early days, I've had, you know, You know, many experiences that didn't work out, but in a way, that's also how you learn, because I think it really is a way you need to learn how to work with a virtual assistant, because it's all about the communication. It's all about the system. It becomes kind of your employee, whether this person only works for you an hour per week, you Or, or has a full time job, you still need to communicate as if she was your employee. Because, you know, that's, that's where things go wrong, I think most of the time when people say, Oh, I tried to work for the VA, it was horrible, it didn't work out. Well, how did you communicate, you know, did you train her? Like this, this whole idea of, [00:35:00] Yeah, training someone and then making sure, like I created an operations manual for the virtual assistant because, well, right now with, with the one I have, and I've had several, I've been lucky she's been with me for years and years, but what if this person all of a sudden decides, Oh, I'm going back to corporate or who knows, you know, people get. Get busy or get pregnant or whatever. And so that's like, well, if you've spent the time and invested into, you know, creating manuals and videos and things like that, then you can just easily, you know, replace that person and say, okay, here's what you need to know. Let's, you know, when can you train yourself basically, and then. Step in. So it is an investment in your business. It kind of, when you were talking, because I'm a business coach, made me think it's kind of the same [00:36:00] conversation with when is the time to hire a business coach, right? It's like, it's an investment that, you know, will save you time. But it's like, well, if I don't have the money, I'm not ready to invest. And so it's, it's that same thing. It, it gains you back time and life energy and, and yeah, more. You move much faster, but it really is working with someone else. You move faster. You can get more done. And what I talk a lot about in this new book is the spaciousness. You gain spaciousness for being human, which if you're working 10 hour days, because you're creating all this content, being productive by yourself, you don't have that. So. Yeah, and that's Anne: when business is not fun anymore and it's a grind and it's just another job as well because at the end of the day, you're chained to your desk and if you don't produce, you don't have the income and so on, [00:37:00] it's all that chain, the whole chicken and egg conversation. Exactly. But there's two things that came for me that came to my mind. It's like a lot of people are scared of the training aspect. Sarah: Yeah, Anne: I'm going to have to invest my time into training that person. Well, I always feel like, yes, of course you have to, you have to share how you do things and how you want them to be done. But I feel, I believe that if you're clear on what skills does that person need and what are the tasks at hand, and then really look for the person who matches that, You don't necessarily have to train so much because the person likely knows whatever system you're using better because she's been working with different clients on different things and she doesn't need to understand exactly what you do because she already knows the system as such, but then also the other part is the whole concept of like, you can train as you go along. And that's what I have done because I started out as a student. by myself and I was quite resistant to bringing it in, bringing in a team and turning it into [00:38:00] an, into an agency because of exactly the reasons that we discussed, but I have always been very clear to my associate VAs that I'm interested In this transition right now, like, I mean, a little while ago, but I would tell them like, this is what I'm doing. I'm going from single to team. I don't know what I'm doing. And this could be a little bit messy. Are you okay with that? And I think this is important if someone is like, Oh no, I want someone who really tells me A to Z what I'm supposed to do, and here is my list. And if that's how she works or he works perfect, but then unfortunately you're not going to fit with me because with me, it can be a little bit messy. And I'll be like, Oh, what do you think? Like. What are you? What would you do? And how would you create this? And I have loved these conversations because, again, if we are all by ourselves, we often get stuck in our mind like, I don't know. Should I do it like this? Or should I do it like that? And then maybe I don't do it at all because I don't know the answer. But if you have someone that you can bounce ideas, Like a coach or your VA who is very smart often, it, it can really [00:39:00] change the way you do things and the things that you can achieve the outcome you can achieve. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So good. And, and you're so right. What, what really matters is that you find the right person on a, on a kind of like resonance level, but also on a skill level and. And I feel like people think, oh, I just need one VA to help me with everything. And that's another reason why it often goes wrong, because you actually need to hire for the skill and not just, oh, I need one va. So you really need to, when you interview, you really need to make sure, okay, am I clear what I need help with? And does this person have the skill to help me with this specific thing? So I think that's That's key. Absolutely. The Anne: key. So Correct. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, well, we'll, we'll make sure to actually, why don't you share your website? So if people are listening and they're like, Oh, that sounds like the kind of VA agency [00:40:00] that I would love to work with. Why don't you share your website and do you have different websites for the, I've Anne: got two websites. Exactly. So there's the Sarah: virtual Anne: assistance agency is called the virtual fully like virtual and full service virtual fully. And then where I talk about the peaceful activities and Raju. com. So it's these separate entities. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. And we'll make sure to, to share both websites also in the show notes. And yeah, just kind of to wrap up, like, what would be like, One thing that you would share that where to start with this idea of peaceful productivity, but maybe the first thing that you look at with your clients, you talked about an audit. Maybe, maybe that's it. What would you say is the 1st? Yeah, Anne: yeah. So I've got what I call the wheel of peaceful productivity. So it's, it's. It's a bit similar to the wheel of life where we compartmentalize different areas of how we do work and then we [00:41:00] rank them and that can be in form of a wheel or it could really just be sitting down and thinking, okay, which parts in my day do I enjoy and I feel they are working quite smoothly and I'm very happy with these things and what are areas in my life in my day or times in my day or So, yeah. Jobs that I'm doing tasks that I'm doing in my business that feel not so good. And to then look at, you know, what's the balance at the end, is there a lot more of like what I'm enjoying or is there a lot more of the stuff that's getting on my nerves and that makes me feel quite anxious and overwhelmed? Well, if that's the case, then obviously, you know, that first of all, you could go back to what do you enjoy and how can you bring more of that? That could be, you know, the creativity, the self care, the fun parts. What, what is fun in your business and how can you do more of that in any good way? And then obviously you can look at the things that are not working so well. And you can look at what can I take out again, remove completely? Is it really essential going back to the book [00:42:00] essential? What can I delegate? To a VA or a team member or a partner or whatever it could be. It doesn't even have to necessarily be in business. It could be in other areas of your life. Maybe there's some opportunity there to pass on some responsibility to someone else. And, and really just have that balance sheet and pick one item from the fun and good stuff. And one item from the, from the not so good stuff. And look at what could you do with those things and start from there. And not overwhelm yourself with, I'm going to change everything overnight. Alright. Because that's not going to work. Take it, like, take small, little baby steps. Sarah: Hmm. I love that. Yeah. I love this idea of the wheel so that it gives you this visual of, of your business and where, where you enjoy it and where you're like, Hmm, why am I still doing that? Yeah. That's, that's a good, wonderful. Well, I really enjoyed this conversation and I'm grateful for the work you're doing. I think it's so needed. So thank [00:43:00] you so much for being on the Humane Marketing Podcast, Anne. Thank you so much. It was a huge pleasure. Thank you. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and finding more peace in your productivity. Find out more about Ann and her work at annrejoux. com. That's Ann with an E at the end and then R, R, R, R, R, R, R, R. A, J, double O, dot com, or Virtuefully, V, I, R, T, U, and then Fully, dot com. I'm still having trouble with the ABCs because once as a child when you learn your ABCs in a different language, for me in German. You can never change that. It's just like so hard for me to spell out names or, or, or letters. That's why I'm always struggling with this. Anne has created a wonderful free gift. [00:44:00] It's called the Wheel of Peaceful Productivity, which you can get for free going to annerajoo. com wheel of peaceful productivity. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle like and did she just joined our community after recording the podcast. So you'll be able to connect with her and many others in there. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes as always of this beautiful episode at humane. forward slash H M 1 9 2. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing, like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares. [00:45:00] For yourself, your clients and the planet because we are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

This is the fifth episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

In this new episode, Jayne Warrilow joins us to talk about the essential role of trust in humane marketing and business. We explore why self-trust is the foundation of all other forms of trust, especially for entrepreneurs navigating challenging times. Jayne shares insights on how trust shapes a business's reputation and client relationships, offering practical steps to enhance trustworthiness. We also discuss the journey of becoming a trusted authority in your field, and how confidence and courage play crucial roles in this transformation. Join us to discover how making trust your competitive advantage can elevate your business in the world of compassionate entrepreneurship. In this conversation they talked about: What trust has to do with Humane Marketing and Humane Business Why self-trust is the foundation of all other forms of trust in business and how entrepreneurs can build and maintain self-trust, especially in challenging times How trust influences a business's reputation and client relationships, and what measures businesses can take to ensure they are seen as trustworthy How entrepreneurs can discover and embrace their calling to become a trusted authority in their field How confidence and courage influence the perception of authority and trustworthiness, and what strategies entrepreneurs can use to build confidence in their industry A sneak peek of what Jayne will cover in our Collab workshop on July 3rd --- Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi Jane, it's wonderful to be with you again today. Jayne: Oh, Sarah. It's such an honor to be with you. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. Sarah: Yeah, me too, because trust. Oh my God, we could talk about this for like hours and hours, right? So such an important topic. And I think specifically for you and I, I've known each other for a long time. And we're very much value aligned and wanting to create businesses for the long term and helping our clients create their life's work and businesses for the long term. So yeah, trust just seems this kind of, I have to admit for me, it was kind of just this like given it's like, yeah, obviously that's part of the thing, but people do wonder. You know, how do you create trust and so that's why you and I talked and I'm like, yeah, it'd be great if you could come in and talk to us about that, because you have spent [00:01:00] a lot of time thinking about that deeply and came up with frameworks and and you'll share some of that with us. And I'm super excited. But let's start with kind of the foundational question. Like, why do we need to trust when we want to create a business and also maybe what does that have to do with creating a sacred business like you call it or a humane business like I call it? Yeah. Jayne: It's a really interesting question because just like you said at the beginning, Sarah, I think so many of us Take trust as a given, you know, if we're a good human in the world, you know, we're taught from a very young age to be kind and, you know, be kind to our neighbors and, you know, treat other people as we'd like to be treated ourselves. And most of us go out into the world with that kind of energy. And that I've used that word energy very specifically here, because in a way, trust is invisible. It's not something that's [00:02:00] tangible that you can see that you can, you know, Have on your business dashboard and measure necessarily how you're doing. There's data that points to it for us, but really it's such a, there's layers to trust, you know, and and what it really means for us. For me, what I've learned over the many years that I've been working with business and leaders is it's actually the foundation of everything. And it's not just the foundation of business because more and more as I get older, Like life and business are integrating together in a way. And it's so interesting, you know, like there's many of us that will have been to business school and we've learned leadership theories. We've learned business theories. We've learned what it takes to be successful in business today. But one of the things that I noticed in my reflections is I look back at like my time in business school. Nobody ever taught me to be kind. Or compassionate or the things that actually [00:03:00] come about building trust in the world. And at the end of the day, I think somewhere along the way, we've, we've somehow forgotten the fact that business is deeply relational it's about. Humans. Yes. It's also about technology today. So when I talk about relationships, it's not just about relationships between people, which of course you need, you need really good, solid, foundational relationships to make, you know, to be successful as both a leader and in, in your business. But also it's about kind of the relationship with technology. Okay. Your relationship with your business, your relationship with yourself, trust comes across all these different layers, which is what we're going to be diving into. Because once we start to pull it apart and, you know, I have a number of frameworks I've developed, it. It kind of, you look at the frameworks and you go, Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense. But somehow along the way, we forgotten [00:04:00] to really look at what it takes to actually create trust. And I think that's probably why we're all now doing business and leadership in a context where trust is at the lowest level it's ever been because we've neglected it. Sarah: Yeah. So good. Yeah. And it feels like we can immediately finger point at people or businesses where we don't feel that there's trust, right? But it's much harder to figure out, well, what are the things that create trust? Because like you said, it's kind of the invisible and it's just kind of like this energy that you either feel or you don't feel. And when you don't feel it, you're like, yep. It's because they're doing that. And in the humane marketing kind of realm, it would be the marketing that creates distrust, right? But, but there's so many other things besides marketing. And you mentioned this relationship to self [00:05:00] but also to your business and technology. Yeah. So let's maybe start with the self because that feels like a good starting point, because. Yeah, I feel like as business owners, that's where, you know, if you don't have trust in yourself, it's very hard to, to kind of give that to others. So, right. That's really Jayne: true. And, and I think, you know working in organizational life for many years, you know, seeing leaders talking about business as though it's out here. So when we think about trust, you know, very often in a business context, we think about, okay, how can we build trust, like from the business to our audience, for example, but in a lot of businesses that my audience, and I think probably yours as well, need to think about is, you know, how do we show up in, in our life? Right. And our business, because I think it was John Kabat Zinn that says, wherever you go, there you are. So you're not going [00:06:00] to be completely different in business than what you are in life. And, and really this, this external view of, you know, I can make my business success by doing things out here. It's kind of becoming an outdated notion today because the marketplace is demanding so much more of us. And the first thing that I want to speak to is this idea of trusted authority, which to me, I think you can't be successful in business today, unless you can build both trust and authority and authority doesn't come until you have trust in the first instance. So it begins. It's like, you know, just very simple questions. Like, do you trust yourself? And when I ask that of say clients or people that I meet, they'll, they'll stop and they'll think, and they'll, they'll, they'll come back with, well, there's some areas where I do, and then potentially there's some areas where. And maybe not so much. And so it's then that inner work of [00:07:00] really understanding yourself at a deeper level and understanding things, just very simple things. You know, this isn't new. It's like, what do you need? In any situation, for example, to feel confident in a situation, what do you need? And also, what do you want? How do you want to show up to your life, to your business, to your relationships? Who do you want to be and who do you want to become? Because what I'm really speaking to here is something I call your personal energetics or your personal resonance. Now. What do I mean by the word resonance? I just mean the relationship, the quality of connection that you form with yourself in this, in this inner space. Like, what is that quality of connection? Do you know yourself? Do you trust yourself? And in what situations do you trust yourself? And in what situations don't you? Now it's really interesting because what the research is showing [00:08:00] that Other people, other people know when you show up and you don't trust yourself because we all read energy. I mean, we don't talk about this all the time, but before anybody opens their mouth, right? We have a sense of who they're being and how they're feeling. Particularly as females, women particularly read emotional energy. And so really understanding that at a different level, you know, can really kind of accelerate the, what it is that you want out of any relationship. Whilst also enabling the other person to get that. So we're not just talking about you coming in here with a me, me, me energy. It's actually the beginning of the win win the me to we journey of how do I be in relationship with others? Well, I've got to learn how to trust myself and be in relationship with myself first so that I can inspire trust from others because if I don't trust me, nobody else is going to trust me [00:09:00] either. Sarah: Yeah, we're always so aligned in our thinking, right? The way I think about this recently, I, I started to think, well, we're talking about company cultures, right? This idea of cultures. And I'm like, well, as entrepreneurs, we need to start thinking about that. Think of it as, as personal cultures, what's the culture, you know, your personal culture within your one person business. And that's exactly what you were talking about is this resonance. How do you feel Because, yeah, that reflects on other people then, and then that's where this resonance comes in, right? And people seeing how you feel. And I love how you made that transitional. So from the me to the we so yeah, clearly it's like, it's not just you and your business, it's you in relationship with. You know, clients, [00:10:00] other people one point you also made was this idea of the authority. And so that I feel like a lot of people are kind of scared already of that word. It's, you know, it feels kind of maybe a bit heavy, maybe even a bit. Kind of like past paradigm, you know, so tell us more about this this idea of authority for me. Also, what comes up what I like more is the word courage because you and I both work with change makers. And so I feel like having this. Working on themselves, this inner work, this self confidence it leads to more courage and that's really what you need to kind of show up as, you know, more of an authority, but I'm curious to, to hear from you what you think about authority and courage and all of these things. Jayne: Yeah. And I love the word courage because of course it comes from the [00:11:00] French, you know, that the courage of it's the heart opening at the end of the day. Interestingly, as you were speaking there, I was thinking, I don't actually use the word authority without the word trust. And why? Right. Because I think you're right. I think authority in a way is the old paradigm because it's got a very masculine energy with it. It does, doesn't it? No, it's kind of got a bit of a push energy and a bit of a, let me blow out my chest and show how good I am. Right. Right. And so this masculine energy comes forward with the word authority, but if you put the word power, Trust with it. Trust is a very feminine kind of feeling kind of energy. And one of the things I learned over, you know, over the years, working with so many different coaches and consultants and also leaders and global leaders and C level leaders is this, this idea that a lot of my work with these individuals, particularly in coaching, has really been around. And if I say these two words, people will get it straight away. Owning. Owning it, [00:12:00] whatever the it is for you. It's not just learning that you have a message, but that you are a message. Right. And so when I look at the word trust and authority together, it's the integration for me of the masculine and the feminine, because. It's like, if you only, if you only operate through a feminine energy in today's market, you're not going to get enough done. There's not going to be enough structures in place to actually attract the people. Life's going to be hard because yeah, you're going to be working as an individual. Maybe you're a solopreneur, but you'll still be trading time for money because you won't have learned how to build the, the structures in the business that can start to take the pressure off your back. Right. And so it's this combination of. Trust, or like you said, courage, courage for me is one of the things that I talk about in different levels of consciousness. I'm kind of going off piece a little bit, but different levels of consciousness is the energy of the heart. [00:13:00] So for your audience, if you know, you're listening and you're not familiar with my work, right? So if you just think about the chakra system, The lower levels of energy are connected to the higher levels of energy through the hearts, right? Through courage. And so authority is really built off of trust, which is the foundation of it. But the old style authority. Didn't really have trust in there. It was just like, let me just shout as loud as I can to everybody who'll listen about how amazing I am. And maybe some of it will stick, but in today's market, it's much quieter than that. And the reason it's built on trust is because you're not the one giving. Being your self authority, like in the old days, it's other people that will then say, you know, I trust you and I trust your authority in this space. And for you to be that person, you need to have done your own [00:14:00] inner work. Now, what does that mean? When I look out into the world, and this is quite a triggering statement for some people, I feel that we have a lot of issues in our leadership. And one of those issues is there's many, many leaders that are leading from what I would. Term as unhealed stories. So they've had trauma, maybe in their childhood, maybe in their adult life. You know, we've all had trauma, but they've not done the inner work. They've not done their own work to actually kind of heal that. So they go into work and life and business. And what they're doing is they're projecting these. This trauma, these unhealed stories onto other people in not, they're not aware of it at all, but it also causes more aggression, lack of care, lack of compassion in the workplace because somebody's unaware. They're not. Conscious really of what they're doing and their impact on [00:15:00] others. And so really this is where trust all begins is, are you prepared to do the work to earn trust? Because we all know trust isn't, and we all know from our own experiences, trust can be lost very quickly. And then it's harder, you know, you really do have to do some work to bring it back. So really understanding. Not only the foundations of trust, but the different elements that build trust generically, because it's been a lot of research done in this space. Once you understand that, it's easier to be aware if you're ever breaking trust inadvertently with somebody else, you can do things that actually bring it back before it kind of falls down the abyss. But also you can trust yourself and show up as a trustworthy individual. And that's a very attractive energy in this marketplace today, just in life. Because we don't meet that many people who've done their own inner work, who trust themselves and then show up [00:16:00] with trust because they own their message. They don't just have a message. You know, they own the message. They know their life. Is making a difference, not just their business. Sarah: And I Jayne: think embodying what matters most in today's marketplace is probably the most important advice I could give anyone. Sarah: Yeah, so much good stuff in there. I always want to like take notes for yeah, where, where can I. I don't want to add anything. It was just perfect. So, so let me just go in another direction because I, I think in one of the frameworks, I saw that you also talk about collaboration and maybe you hinted at it a little bit just prior how, oh, yeah, you mentioned it because you're saying, well, trust needs to be earned. And the old paradigm was kind of like, well, I just show up as an authority where actually you know, the other [00:17:00] people make you an authority. You don't even call yourself an authority. Right. And so how does this all have to do with collaboration? Because it's not just me trusting myself. Yes, we saw that was a big deal and that's where it all starts. But then how do we. not use, but collaborate with other people to increase maybe that trust and maybe also the authority what have you seen in your work? Jayne: Well, you see, as soon as you mentioned that I went straight into power dynamics in my head, because. You know, we've lived for so many years with positional leadership in organizational life. And even in small businesses, you know, there's the founder, the CEO, and, you know, maybe an admin assistant underneath. So what it, what happens when you do your own inner work is you start to realize and kind of have compassion for other people. And I don't know, this is [00:18:00] certainly true for me. The more I learn about what's on the inside here, the more I realize there's a bit of a crowd, but also. That I'm no better, really, or worse than anybody else. So it's almost like a humility comes into the way I feel. And I also realize that everybody that I meet has something that they can teach me. What do I mean about the power dynamics and trust? Well, What it does for me is it shifts my belief system about who I think I am and who I think I'm being, which then in a relationship with somebody else, or if I'm collaborating with, what I'm doing is I'm really partnering. I'm having the energy of not power over or power under, I'm in the power with. space. So when I'm in that space now, it's shared power, right? So it is collaborative because I'm listening as much to the person that I'm in relationship [00:19:00] with as much as I'm like speaking from my own perspective, but we're in true dialogue now. Every, whenever I say dialogue to people, everybody thinks that this is something we do every day, all the time, but it's not. I'll just say to anybody who's listening, just go out into life, sit in Starbucks and listen to the people behind you on a table. I can guarantee they won't be in true dialogue. Why? Because it's almost like we've forgotten this power with, we've forgotten how to be with each other in some ways. And if you listen, I can more or less guarantee what you're going to hear is what I would call two parallel conversations, whereas somebody is just waiting for the other person to finish so they can say the next thing they want to say, and the other person's waiting so they can say it. Speak and say what they want to say, but there's no real collaboration, even in a communication that's happening. [00:20:00] And again, this is why we've lost trust. You see, so this is also, there's so many different layers to trust from power, how we're showing up to the belief space to have we, do we trust ourselves? We've got our own, like. Have we healed our own stories so that we can actually be in the world in conscious and intentional ways? Because that's the beginning of humane marketing, because if we're not being human and we're acting like machines, then, well, we're pushing because we feel less than on the inside. So we feel we've got to get our stuff out because people need to hear what we've got to say. That's a very different energy then. Hey, yeah, I'm here and I'm ready to help, right? I'm ready to help you. And one of my mentors used to say to me, you know, like we talk a lot, don't we? In marketing about let's get a funnel. Let's get a lead magnet. Let's do this. Let's get it all in place. Right. Content marketing. And what one of my mentors, [00:21:00] one of my early mentors here in the States said to me, Jane, at the beginning of a relationship with anybody, Just help them, just help them, right? Don't keep proving that you can help them. Don't keep telling them you can help them, just help them. And when I think about trust, right, if I think about it from my own perspective, one of the first things when I'm in a new relationship, whether it's a business, professional relationship, or whether it's just a personal one is this idea of don't let me down. This is what research shows. The first thing that comes into our head is, are you someone I can trust? Don't let me down here. Whatever it is, don't let me down. So that's the first thing you, you need to prove is that you're someone who cares and that you're not going to let them down. You've got their back, right? It's simple. Sarah: It, it, it, I love this word, humility that you used and what comes up right now for me also when you said, don't let me down [00:22:00] is the word integrity. So kind of like walk your talk, follow through, do what you say, you're, you know, do what Said you were going to do all of these things. Like that's, it's these small little things that people notice. Kind of like the credit system from Stephen Covey, where he's like, well, you know, you, people, Don't pay attention, but they actually accumulate credits like if you do good things the other person will kind of have a credit count and every time they, you know, you do something that is like, not in integrity or not trustworthy. Well, you lose credits, right? And you it's very, very hard to then regain these credits once you are like, under zero. So. So yeah, just kind of like paying attention to, to the unspoken, to the invisible, like you mentioned, it's so, [00:23:00] so key in, in trust and authority building. And I feel like what you mentioned also about collaboration and partnership. It's, it's really this new paradigm, right? It's not about you building your own authority, but partnering with others on the same level that creates authority for both partners. I feel like that's the way we both, we all rise together. Right. It's not like I rise by abusing the people under me. It's like we all rise. And I just, I just love that way of thinking about business and marketing and building trust. So, yeah. Jayne: Yeah, it's so important. And you used a word there, Sarah, which is so important in business for me, which is the word integration, because even though I've talked about, you know, do you trust yourself? So this idea of personal trust and personal [00:24:00] resonance, then moving that out into like what I would call then social resonance or relationship. Like that inspires when you trust yourself, it's then how do you show up in the world that enables others to trust you? But this space of integration for me, like the crucible of that is in your business, Sarah: because Jayne: that's the space of being and doing, because we want you to embody the message that you have. We want you to lead from this integrated space. And we want you to bake this in to your business so that, for example, all of your team, like if you have assistants or whatever, anybody who's representing your business understands how they're going to go about building trust, because actually we can build trust through technology too today, but we can't do that if the, we can't do it in human ways. Unless those first [00:25:00] two, the personal and the social are in place. And if you think about this from, you know, like the, the, the work that leaders have been through, like there's emotional intelligence, which you could argue is a good piece of self trust. Then the social intelligence, which you can argue is a good piece of the relationship trust. And these two things are so important in business today. Why? Because the market's changing and we're going beyond the transactions in business now. So it's not just, will you do what you say you will do when you say you will do it? That's kind of the baseline now, but now people are looking for. Purpose. They're looking for meaning. They're looking for you. Are you a force for good in the world as one individual human living in the world? Are you a force for good in the way you're living your life? Or are you part of the problem? Right. And then that of course, ripples out into your relationships, ripples out into your business. [00:26:00] So, you know, one thing that I always say is a business that doesn't resonate. Can never be successful, just like a person that doesn't resonate can never be successful. And you can't resonate unless you can build trust. Sarah: Yeah. You can't build trust unless you do the inner work and the workshop with Jane. To tell us a bit more about the workshop that you're gonna yeah, Jayne: share with us. Yeah, well, I'm really excited cause I have a number of frameworks. And one of the things that I love is, is putting the, I'm very visual. So putting things into a visual framework really helps me to kind of understand. And there's a lot underneath these frameworks and I've got, I think, three or four that I'm going to be sharing. And, and the first one is looking in a way, looking at the context. It's looking at how is the market changing in terms of trust and what [00:27:00] are, and what are our customers like asking for? What are, what's the invitation that they're giving us right now in terms of the way that we show up to do business. Right. So that's kind of the first one. And then we're going to see. So we're going to start looking at this integration of the self and the relationships and the business. And what does it mean to truly integrate the being and doing in business? And we're also going to look at the five key elements of trust, of building trust in depth so that we can understand what they are, because of course, they work in the individual space, they work in the relationship space, and they also work in the business space. Because the ideal here is. It's not just you as a human being very trustworthy as an individual, and then building relationships that are trustworthy. That's a key part, but also building the trust into your business, baking it in into all of your kind of. Processes, your structures, your systems, even if they're run through [00:28:00] technology, that they still got your voice, they've still got your energy baked in at the very core. So we're going to be looking at what these things mean and how to actually practically implement this in your business, because trust can feel like something that's floating around up here. But we actually want to bring that energy down so that, you know, it makes a difference in your daily reality. So that's, I love Sarah: that so much and I love that you making it practical, right? It's like, while I love big concepts and you and I could talk about these things, hours and hours, but at the end of the day, what the entrepreneurs want is like, okay, I get that, but how do I bring that down into my business, into my systems? And I love that you talk about technology as well, because there is kind of this. You know, resistance to. Maybe using technology or seeing it as like this bad thing from the [00:29:00] past paradigm, but I'm very much about saying, no, no, no, we use the technology, but we just need to infuse it with the new paradigm. Recipe, you know, it's like, yeah, we, we can use both. And it seems like that's exactly what you're going to be sharing with us. So not wait, it's going to be amazing. So please people, if you listen to this and you want more of Jane and building trust and courage and all of that good stuff have a look at humane. marketing forward slash. workshop and join us on July 3rd because it's going to be amazing. And you, I think. It could, it could feel like this is just a nice to have for business, but don't get that wrong. It is a must have for the new business paradigm. We are going to be inundated with anything AI, right? And I just talked about the [00:30:00] positive things of AI, which I do a hundred percent believe in. But the other side, the dark side of AI is all the. You know, the generic stuff that we're going to be inundated with, and so that's why we need to work on the foundation and the trust building and all of that so that even in the technology, people can tell this is trustworthy and this is not, you know, so yeah, I can't wait. Jane, anything you want to add about the, the workshop or anything else? Jayne: I just want to say, I completely agree with what you're talking about with AI because at the moment, I mean, I can't necessarily talk about the future so much in the long term, but at the moment right now, this is a distinct advantage because you're absolutely right, Sarah. AI is. Causing us to reflect back on ourself to what does it mean to be human and be human as a leader and human in business. So that, this is why your brand and humane [00:31:00] marketing, I know the work that you do is so very important because if we can't claim and there's right now, there's no shared definition of what it means to be human. So if we can't claim. Ourselves and our energy and what it means to be human. How on earth are we going to keep up with AI coming in? So the, this sounds, you know, like it sounds fundamental in many ways because it is, but it's also right now, what I want you to know is, My clients that are doing this in the marketplace right now, this is a competitive advantage because it's what the market is asking for and the market is in some ways slower to move with the large corporations than we are when we're entrepreneurial and we can pivot on a dime. So it's a real competitive advantage right now. And people are yearning for the humanity back in business. So let's just give it to them. Sarah: Yes. Let's [00:32:00] do it. Can't wait, Jane. Really. I very much look forward to this and thanks so much for being on the podcast and let's just say to be continued. Yeah. Jayne: I love it. Sarah: Thank you, Sarah.  

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

Welcome to another episode, this time with an exclusive update on the forthcoming "Business Like We're Human" book! I'm spilling the beans about the outline of my new and upcoming book: WAKE UP, REIMAGINE, RECALIBRATE, and INTEGRATE. Listen now to dive deep into the essence of "Business Like We're Human" and join the conversation about what it means to you! -- Ep 189 audio solo episode Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to another episode on the Humane Marketing Podcast. This time it's just me because I wanted to give you a, an update about the Business Like We're Human book. Sometime last year, I promised I'd share some updates along the way as I'm writing book number three. business like we're human. And I've been in planning phase pretty much since last fall. So in November, I hosted the Business Book Alchemist program for the first time. So that's a small group program to help renegade authors who write about change and I helped them plan and write their book. And then of course, I focused on my own book. There were five of us and everyone really loved the program and we worked on our outlines and yeah, really quite got a lot of progress. And after the program, I suggested [00:01:00] that we continue this small group in an accountability group where we talk Take turns hosting a catch up call once per month. And we've had three of those calls so far. And we also have a Google spreadsheet where we track when we're writing, which is super helpful with accountability. So that's what has been going on. And if I look back to this year, so I'm recording this end of April. January was just really a bust for me. I just didn't feel. anything, like nothing came. I still didn't know that direction of the book. And sometimes I felt like I was writing two books. I couldn't really focus on, well, what is my message? So instead I just started booking conversations with friends and past clients and asked them the question, what comes up? for you when [00:02:00] you hear business like we're human. And I transcribed those conversations and started to see a pattern emerge. And then all of a sudden, end of January exactly when Pluto, the planet Pluto finally left my sign of Capricorn and moved into Aquarius, which is If you are into astrology, you kind of know what that means. It just basically means for the last 20 years, Pluto was kind of this heavy, difficult planet in, in my sign, which is Capricorn, and it finally moved out of my sign. And it started to come all together. And I, Alefsa knew what people wanted to hear from me, but I also knew what I wanted to write and what I think they need to hear from me. So, that's why there was this confusion with thinking, okay, I'm, I'm writing two different books and now I. [00:03:00] I realized in January, Oh, okay. So it's just basically the same old marketing thing. Give them what they want and then sorry, sell them what they want and then give them what they need. So that's that all started to be clear for me. And so I basically am now. I started to write, I got the four parts of the book together actually with a visual because you might remember the labyrinth from the Marketing Like We're Human book. And I really found that visual representation of the different sections of a journey is really helpful. So I wanted to find another one. And it was sitting right in front of me on my desk in the form of a lovely card from my friend and past client Miriam Martinez, and it was in the form of a peace sign. So it was just, Perfect, because the whole point of running a business like We're Human [00:04:00] is to find inner peace so that we can create outer change. So without further ado, some drum roll please. The four parts of the Business Like We're Human book are Most likely, for now, at least, gonna be wake up, reimagine, recalibrate, and integrate. And let me read the intro now where I describe these four stages of the journey to a humane business. Anxiety versus peace. Anxiety free marketing, that was the very first name I came up with before gentle marketing and then humane marketing. Because in all my research, people kept telling me how marketing created anxiety for them. And it's not just marketing. I think it's the toxic online business environment in general. The constant hustle and [00:05:00] tendency to compare and keep up with what everyone else is doing. In a recent conversation with Ann Raju, a Virtual Assistant and Peaceful Productivity Mentor, she asked me my opinion about a new service she was going to offer around launching. And I shared how in my experience, just the word launch brings up anxiety in a lot of people because it's a word from the big guys with their massive launches. So even just going in, we feel like we're not good enough and we'll never achieve a successful launch. I added that I also felt that all this talk about launching has created a very false idea about it. Think about the word. To launch means to set something in motion. But in a rather speedy fashion, like a rocket or a missile. So no wonder this gives us anxiety. We're told to create a product, program, or online community, and then create a big [00:06:00] launch campaign. Think funnels, ads, and webinars, except that now they're being called masterclasses. And voila, that's the recipe for a six figure launch. Except that not only does it. Not work for most people. It also creates huge amounts of anxiety and pressure. And then when no one signs up, instead of lifting us up, it drops us to the ground and leaves us in a puddle of anxiety and share. Anne and I agreed that launching also needs to reset in order to fit into doing business like we're human. I'll bring this example back in part three, when we talk about recalibrating our business systems. Inner peace. I'm a big believer that change starts from within. That's the main change I introduced with Humane Marketing. Starting from within, looking at who we are, and then bringing more of us to our marketing. [00:07:00] So I was delighted to come across the Inner Development Goals, a new framework and a global open source initiative that aims to help us develop the skills we need in order to Accelerate the work towards the UN's global sustainable development goals. We need to first change ourselves, create more inner peace so that we can go out there and create outer change. As a flower child from the eighties, obtaining peace is my number one motivator, inner peace and peace on earth. That's why when I was thinking about this book and a visual to represent the four stages of transformation, the peace sign came to mind. Well, actually it was staring right at me, sitting on my desk in the form of a beautiful self painted card by my friend and past client, Miriam Martinez. Yes, that felt right. Doing business like we're human is a journey to inner peace that leads to outer change. The peace sign and the four [00:08:00] stages that lead to inner peace. Close your eyes for a moment and visualize the peace sign in front of your mind's eye. Got it? Good. Let me explain the four stages and equivalent parts of this book. Wake up. We start in the upper right corner of the peace circle. Are you visualizing it? Good. In case you closed your eyes to do so, open them again. Because this is the eye opening stage, our collective wake up call, where we realize that we're on the verge of something new and big. We'll go back in time to see how we created those myths that need updating. We'll rumble with our history that idealized work, and a decade by decade, and a decade by decade. And, and decade by decade made us put work first and being human last by the end of part one, we'll have understood that we have created a collective myth that in order to run a business, we need to be business [00:09:00] people and that running a business requires you to be a full time working bee with no spaciousness to be human. Picking up the peace sign again, you are now moving to the bottom right corner of the three smaller segments of the symbol. Imagine. Imagine all the people, living life in peace. You, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be as one. Of course you recognize John Lennon's anthem for unity and peace. In his song, John envisioned a world without divisions, without borders, possessions, religion, and greed. He shared his dream of a society focused on human connection and harmony. Sound familiar? Isn't that what we want as well? Together we'll get curious and go back in time to moments of our lives, our childhood, and our human [00:10:00] history, ancient Greece and the Renaissance, where imagination was celebrated and encouraged. I'll also share an in depth account of my experience with a future life progression therapy session and explain how this deep dive into the unconscious mind can help us create the future we want. We'll end part two by reimagining your work and life. Part three. Recalibrate. Close your eyes again and take a few steps to the left. You now find yourself in the recalibration area of the peace symbol. Quite a few people I talked to found this to be an interesting word choice. Isn't that usually used for machines, they asked. Yes, it's not the most humane of words, but I really wanted to keep it because it's a word that I'm Our left brain understands after having used our right, right hemispheres and reimagined how doing business like where you human [00:11:00] would look like for us. We need to step into action mode and turn our on our left brains to enact the changes needed. This is the pragmatic part of the book that includes us changing to an Ubuntu mindset. Integrating an authentic relationship culture that encompasses our personal wellbeing, connection to others, and even adjusting our services so that they are aligned with this new culture. Then we'll focus on recalibrating our business foundations to create more spaciousness for being human, your marketing and sales, your systems and your support team. Don't worry, no hiring required. Integrate. You've almost come full circle, literally and figuratively speaking. Integration is the last segment of the peace symbol in the top left corner of the circle, and also the homestretch of our journey to inner [00:12:00] peace that leads to other change. Yes, there will be some challenges and hurdles to overcome, but I'll equip you with rituals, practices, cognitive and embodied ones and other support to navigate this transition to more humane business practices that always put the human first. Are you ready to begin this journey? So that's the introduction to, to kind of like give you a little idea of yeah, what I'm working on, what I'm writing about, like my last two books. This is not your typical how to grow your business book. It's a how to be more human and also run a business book. But it's more than that. It's really a radical new way to think about business and work. One where we have the spaciousness to be more human and actually learn again what it means to be human when we're not working. I read a lot about going [00:13:00] pro from people I appreciate, but going pro doesn't mean working more or being less human. Going pro to me means being really good at what you do and recalibrating your business so that your systems run smoothly with very little human maintenance. This frees up so much time for you to spend time on your authentic relationship culture. Again, that's one of the topics of the recalibration part. So anyways, that just gives you kind of a glimpse. I as you can probably tell, I could keep on talking about this. I, when I write a book, I really truly get immersed in these topics. I'll update you again. So for now I'm wrapping this up. I'd love to hear from you what Business Like We're Human means to you. I'm collecting stories from people in my community. But also would love to hear from you and [00:14:00] you can leave me a voice memo at humane. marketing. com forward slash ask. So A S K. It's only 90 seconds, so it needs to be rather quick. Enter your name and email so I can get in touch and ask follow up questions and maybe again, I'll even feature your answer in the book. Again, you can go to humane. marketing. com forward slash ask and leave me a voice. Memo, or you can also get in touch with me on LinkedIn or send me an email at sarahathumane. marketing. Again, the question is what does business like we're human mean to you? How does this resonate? What comes up for you? Thank you so much for listening to this first Muse about business like we're human, I look forward to hearing from you, take care.

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

Join us for an enriching conversation on Podcasting to Create Connection with Chrysa Sto.  In this episode, we explore the main fears that hold people back, strategies for consistently discovering captivating guests, and how podcasts can seamlessly integrate into your broader business strategy.  Discover an often overlooked yet powerful method for fostering direct engagement with your audience while exploring the future of this dynamic medium.  Are you ready to harness the power of podcasting to cultivate genuine connections and drive positive change?  Let's dive in. In this conversation we talked about: The main fear of people starting their own podcast How to continuously find new interesting guests How a podcast fits into an overall business strategy An overlooked yet simple strategy to directly interact and engage with your listeners The future of podcasts… and much more... --- Ep 189 [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing. Ep 188 intro: Hi, friends. Welcome back to another episode of the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the piece of partnership, promotion, and even people and product. So kind of fits everywhere. I'm talking to Carissa Stowe about podcasting. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing these conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, maybe you're one of Krisa's people, [00:03:00] big warm welcome. You probably don't know what I'm talking about. What's the seven P's in Mandala? Well, you can go over to humane. marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page, and download your one page marketing plan with the seven P's of humane marketing. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's. And I'm actually recording a mini. Muse episodes around these seven Ps that I will all upload to a blog post around them, and you'll find the recordings in there. And that's at humane. marketing. com forward slash seven Ps, the number seven. Letters P and S. So today's show, let me tell you a little bit more about CRISA. CRISA helps human centered, eco conscious businesses and change makers launch [00:04:00] and manage podcasts that feel authentic and sound good. She's dedicated to helping you utilize podcasting to establish credibility and brand awareness, create connections with potential clients, and foster meaningful relationships that result in increased business opportunities. In our conversation, we talked about the main fear of people starting their own podcast, how to continuously find new interesting guests, how a podcast fits into an overall business strategy. An overlooked yet simple strategy to directly interact and engage with your listeners, and you'll hear on this episode how even I overlooked it, or I had it in place, but never used it. So you'll find that out later in the episode. And we also talk about the future of podcasts and Chris's opinion on that and so much more. So [00:05:00] without further ado, let's dive in. video1496172371: Hey Chrysa, so good to have you on the Humane Marketing Podcast to talk about podcasting. And we just had like a stressful moment before getting on with the tech and my mic all of a sudden not working and we were just laughing because Right. That's exactly what we're talking about today. This show the technical issues and not just that, but that's usually where people are like, Oh, my God, all this tech that's involved, but anyways. Thank you so much for being here on the show. Thank you for having Sarah. It's really nice to connect and talk with you. Yeah. It's been a long time in the making. We've connected so long ago. It seems like, even though probably for you, the time just flew by because you had a baby and time is just different when you have a baby, right? It seems like it just flies by. Here we are. Yeah. So [00:06:00] almost probably a year after connecting for the first time. So, yeah. So today this today. Yeah. So glad to be here. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, let's just get started with the tech because I think that's you know, one of the things that a lot of entrepreneurs worry about when it comes to podcasting. But it's not the only thing we're going to be talking about on today's show, but I think it's a good way to start. So how much do we really need to worry about the tech? Is that a big deal? Mm hmm. It's always a question that comes up, especially for people who are either starting out or have some, you know issues with tech. So In the question, how much tech do you need to get started? For example, the barrier to entry is low, so you don't need much of a tech to get started. You need [00:07:00] a microphone, a decent web camera, if you don't have like, for example, A mireless or a DSLR but definitely you don't need to break the bank with a microphone and from the ease of your computer of your home you can record a podcast with of course you need a recording platform like zoom or Riverside or squad cast. There are numerous Platforms out there that you can record a show and have a good quality audio. But to get started, I would say it's pretty straightforward, easy to get started with a microphone, a camera and a recording software. Thank you. Yeah. I think that a lot of people are kind of like, oh, can relax their shoulders. So what, let's just explain what just happened when we logged on, right? So I do what I always do. I check the mic before I hit recording or before the guest even goes, gets on. And so [00:08:00] when you I let you in all of a sudden I noticed that my mic is not showing up in the, in the settings. And then I realized, well, it's not even, like, usually there's a small blue light mic that I use and I use a Rode desktop mic. And so I'm like, well, trying to plug it in to different ways, unplug it, et cetera. Because I do feel like it helps to have a good mic to record a podcast. But then we decided, okay, well, let's go ahead anyways to record it because actually I use some tools. That helped with the recording anyways after. And so I shared with you that I use a site called a phonic where I didn't upload and that kind of equalizes the sound and it usually is pretty good. So that's what just happened before we hit record. So yeah, a good mic is [00:09:00] definitely a huge plus, but like you said, you don't need to break the bank. So what do you feel like, and then you actually. Mentioned lighting because we're recording this also on YouTube. What would you say is more important, the light or the sound? Yeah, that's a really interesting question. Thanks for asking. And what I would say about that is, It's usually 50 percent of the, of the success depends on the audio. So even if you have the, like the best camera and your audio is, is, is bad, is poor things won't be you know, presented as, as as, as they should, if you had poor audio. a decent web camera or a decent camera and a decent microphone, if that makes sense. So it's 50 50, it's 50 50, but the audio part, I feel it's more important because people can, [00:10:00] can view and watch and not show crystal clear, clear, you know, image, video on their, on their, on their phone or on their computer, but they don't, they cannot hear a poor recorded audio, if that makes sense. It's really annoying to listen to something that you can't. Barely here or there's like background noise. It's yeah, you get annoyed faster. I think with your ears than with your eyes. Exactly. Yeah. And because we're talking about the podcast, which was mainly An audio experience now, certainly like the, the few years the last few years have become like video. There are so many video first podcasts out there, but at first it was originally an audio experience. So if we consider that the audio experience and the people have you. Plugged in their [00:11:00] headphones and always on the go, they need to have like a great audio and listening experience. Right. Hmm. Yeah. So let's expand a little bit further. So, okay. We know that good sound is important. What else makes a successful podcast in your opinion? Yeah I mean, this is a question that the answer is it depends because success to me, for example, might be different from what you define success to be. So it depends on, on the podcasters goals, objectives. And needs like how the podcast is contribute, contributes to, you know, for example, if those people are business owners it depends for every people is different. But I would say for. People like me or like, like for coaches, consultants, service providers, a successful podcast is [00:12:00] like the, the core of your content is, is, is a channel that you have. build your network on. You can use this channel and this like to, to show up share what you have to, to say about the topic that you're interested in or know more about. And also have this channel be, The core strategy of building your network creating relationships, connecting with people who you haven't had the time like to connect with unless you had the podcast and It depends on many different factors, but I think for business owners, podcasting is, and the podcast is a door opener. It gives you the opportunity to meet with people, connect with people that might also these people be Potential [00:13:00] clients business partners, collaborators, and all of this plays a huge role in networking and you know, growing a business through networking connections and organic ways of growing a business, if that makes sense. Yeah. So, so you basically defined what success could look like. Right. And, and, and now let's go to, well, what makes that successful podcast, however you define success. So by that, I mean, like, you know, content flow guests are a few of these ingredients, right? So you probably have listened to many, many podcasts and. You can tell, okay, this podcast is gonna make it, or this past podcast, I don't know how long it's gonna survive. Right. There's probably some indicators that tell you, yeah, [00:14:00] this is a good show or not so. Mm-Hmm, . Mm-Hmm. . So what are those? So, to that end, I mean I feel like a successful podcast is the, a podcast that can provide for the listeners, can, can share like valuable insights and actually be, Helpful resource, resource for people so that people are listeners and the audience is coming back every week or whatever frequency applies. But for me, a successful podcast is the one that helps me, educates me on something on a topic. I can listen with ease, like without having any audio issues or things like that. And I can also connect and like the guests, like how not the guests, sorry, the host and the guests. I, a podcast, successful podcast to, to my eyes is one that I like the host, how they [00:15:00] present the content how they connect with people, how, you know, their manners and all of that. So yeah, for me, it's all about. becoming a valuable, helpful resource for people so that your show, you know, has an impact on people's either lives, businesses. Yeah. There's, there's essentially, there's To two different audiences or people that are involved in the podcasting experience. I guess there's the guests, right? And then there's the listeners and as a podcast host. Well, you're creating relationships with the guests. Your stream, well, basically looking for guests to bring on to your audience and then you're also creating relationships with your [00:16:00] listeners, which I guess in a way, yes, you're kind of wanting them to. Further engage with you and maybe come into your world and then go on to your gentle sales path. That's really also part of why we're doing this. Yes, we're educating, we're inspiring, but we're doing this in a business context. And so somehow it has to do with our gentle sales path, right? So let's talk first about the guests because. That is something that while you need to make sure that you have guests lined up and, and so how, what are ways that podcast hosts are finding new, interesting guests that, you know, you see with your clients, what are you helping them with? Yeah. Now so here's the thing about finding guests, there are several podcasts, websites, matching websites out [00:17:00] there that you can go in, create an account and you know, So these podcast websites connect guests with hosts, right? So an example of this would be podcastguest. com or podmods. And this is an easy way for people who don't have another way to do it. This is an easy way to find guests. Although with my clients, when the, the last few years, I started to incorporate a more hybrid approach. What I mean by that is because of my client, because most of my clients are business owners or you know, coaches, service providers, and this kind of profession they want to somehow link the podcast into, you know, finding clients or collaborating with people in a way that is mutually beneficial. So that, that's, that's why I figured out [00:18:00] like okay, I need to find a way to. help them find guests, but not just find guests for the sake of finding a guest, bringing them, recording an episode and that's it, but in a more intentional way. Right. And so here's what I recommend for people who want to somehow link the podcast with the business. You can simply create a list of potential guests that you want to have in your show, but with in mind, you would have the people that you either admire or want to work with, the people you would love to work with. And so you are reaching out to those people. That for you feed the ideal client persona that you have and you're reaching out to those people, you're inviting them to the show. Most people will, are likely to say yes, because [00:19:00] it's a conversation, you know, it's a natural way of no, or getting to knowing to know someone or learning from them. So then when you have them on the show, either before or after the interview, or even in a follow up email that you might be sending, you can just mention a simple, gentle, genuine question like you can let them be aware of your, of the offers that you have currently, currently running your services, your website, and you can just ask, is there a new one? And That you think I should talk to, or do you know anyone that might be interested in the XYZ service that I have and is just like asking them if they know someone else, you're not trying to sell something to them. So the approach is actually at least in my opinion, humane, you know, gentle So this [00:20:00] way there is a double benefit to this. You are finding guests to fill up the list of your, of the guests of your show, but you're not just bringing you know, anyone that's might be interested. You're bringing actually people who you admire and you would want to work with. So if this conversation ends up like, if those people are interested. To in working with you, they might, this might be an opportunity for them to get to know you get to know to your, you know, to your personality approach. So either they might say yes, or they might refer you to someone else. And in fact, most of my clients. Use the podcast, utilize the podcast, the power of podcasting like this. Like most of the guests they have on the show, they send them referrals because they had a great experience. Certainly you cannot have someone on your show and [00:21:00] just have them. And then be like forget them. You need to nurture their relationship and keep engaging with them. Keep, you know, interacting with them afterwards, because we're talking about build, building real relationships, you know? So this is the way I recommend people you know, who are interested in linking the podcast to the business. To go about this. Like it's an idea worth considering because I've seen it working with many of my clients. Yeah, that's a, that's a great idea. And I think I, I was trying to remember when I started podcasting and don't remember, but it's, it's at least eight years. I think that I've been podcasting various. Podcasts, and I made the mistake of just randomly interviewing people at least in the first podcast, the, the it was called the introvert best [00:22:00] growth podcast at the same time, maybe I wouldn't call it a mistake because it was for me. Just the networking, just the relationship building, they didn't turn out to be clients, but they helped me create this huge network. Now that I do feel like I, I never need to look for a podcast guests. It's, it's like. As a podcast host, you get so many pitches from people to be on podcasts. And probably out of a hundred, I accept one because they just really did their homework really well. But the other 99, I just don't even reply anymore. Because I, I do have this big network network of people that I feel like, okay, these are aligned people. Right. But I guess what I'm not doing is I'm not like thinking, Oh, could they be clients as much [00:23:00] because I, what I was thinking when you were talking is like, well, the topic of the podcast also needs to be aligned with a topic that your, would be a fit for your clients. Right. Because for me, well, I'm bringing in. Either experts at marketing. So they're like, well, I don't need Sarah's help. Right. There are experts in their own field of marketing of some kind. Or or they are an inspiration for me. And so that's why I bring them in. So there are change makers that I look up to and they, you know, they're probably as few steps ahead of me. And so that's why I bring them. And, and that's also my reason for podcasting is really all the things I learned over the years. So yeah, but the other thing it made me think of when you shared, it was like, well, the frequency of [00:24:00] podcasting, right? When you have to, Look for for client for podcast guests per month, or some people have even 2 shows per week. And then it's a podcast. That's a lot of people. Right? And then really the relationship relationship building gets quite difficult. Difficult. And that's what happened to me when I had four guests per month. And I'm like, I can't, like, it doesn't feel human or humane anymore. It feels like it's just like this factory of people. And so that's why I really slowed it down. And now I just have two episodes per month. And one of them is also a CoLab workshop partner. So I kind of combined that. So what, what would you say about the frequency of. Of shows. So a little bit about what you shared before. First of all, I, I totally agree all of that, that I've shared in terms of the strategy. Certainly the [00:25:00] people that you're reaching out need to be aligned with, with the podcast topic that you have. But yeah, to answer your question about the frequency. I would say that everyone is doing what their best they what it's best for their, you know, for the sanity for that is that fits their schedule. And definitely there is no need to be a by, you know, there's no need doesn't mean that if you don't have a weekly show, you cannot be successful or you cannot achieve your goals, your specific goals. The frequency depends on, in my opinion, on your bandwidth, schedule, purpose, and you know, It's best, what you do, it's best to do what feels right for you, for your specific situation and for your goals. So for example, what you shared, [00:26:00] it didn't feel a line anymore when you had feedback. For guests and like, if you like a factory, so this doesn't feel right. So it's good that you made the decision to go to buy a bi weekly schedule. So, yeah, I'm totally, I totally agree with that approach for everyone that is thinking that. Maybe people will forget about me or a bi weekly show is definitely a consistent, you know, normal paced show and schedule. Hmm. That's good to know. So we talked about the hosts. Now let's talk about the listeners. What would you say there? How do we engage with listeners so that we do bring them into our world and, and maybe eventually onto our gentle sales path? Yeah. That's a, that's a very general question, right? Engaging with listeners. It's a bit hard for pod, for, [00:27:00] it was a bit hard for audio podcasters specifically because a podcast apps, at least most of them don't allow you to interact directly as we interact on social media, for example, with comments and things like that. But. Now, thanks to video podcasting and YouTube, things got easier, but I won't go there to interact like with ways using YouTube and social media, because that's, that's the normal thing. And I like to talk, you know non traditional ways of doing things. So yes, you can prompt listeners to follow your social media. Or watch on YouTube and interact with you this way. But what I would like to share with you is an overlooked strategy, an overlooked tactic that people often, you know don't talk about, which is a simple [00:28:00] form, written form on your website that you can have. If you're thinking, yeah, but the form of people you need people, I need from people to go to my website, fill out the form. Too many steps. Yes. Too many steps. But I like to have different things for people to take action on. So you can have a dedicated page on your website, for example, that might be something like yourpodcast. com slash question or slash listener And you can have a written form there for those who are interested in filling out the form and asking a question. And we can have also something like it's a plugin, a web plugin called the software that you can install called, for example, Speakpipe. There are several others where, listen, you install this plugin in this page under or below or above [00:29:00] the form, doesn't matter. And people can just press record from their phone or computer and record the voice note, which is It's powerful because if you can get people to go to this, to this page and just click record and record the question, this means like direct interaction and engagement from your listeners. And what you also are doing with this way is you are collecting real feedback data Having the chance to feature them and give back to your audience, feature them, feature the voice notes, the voice note that they recorded on your show. So yeah this is, this is really. A strategy that we, we've started implementing with some of my clients and we've seen that it's a bit tough to get listeners to go to this page. Yes. [00:30:00] But if you are, if you think of this page as your main call to action on the show and Also, if you have the chance to promote this page in other places that you might be speaking people who are interested, genuinely interested in, you know, interacting with you will definitely take the time to press one button and record a voice note. I'm laughing because I actually do have that set up on my website. And I didn't even know the link, so I had to go look it up and it's like this long link. So yeah, I need to create a permalink, like a shortened link for it. And I need to actually mention it on the podcast, right. It's not enough to just sit there on the website. But yeah have it, have it as one of the call to actions is such a good reminder because I remember like when I first installed it, I love getting those messages. It's like. [00:31:00] Oh my God, there's people listening. , . And it was great. But yeah, I need to, I need to implement that. So if you're listening, watch out. I don't have a now because the link is way too long, but I'll mention it on the, on the next episode. Definitely. So yeah look out for that link and, and please leave me a voice message. They make my kids. So yeah, great, great tips. So that's one of those ways that we can engage. One of those ways. And people, yeah, as you said, people forget, like you, you install something or you create a way and you don't even mention it on the show. So how do, do listeners, you know, are aware of this method or of this thing that you are suggesting to, for them to do. So yeah either on the show as a call to action or. You can even, you know, talk about it in interviews, workshops, whatever you have, because people will interact like trust [00:32:00] me, they do. They will do. Yeah, I love that. I was just thinking also and, and I don't have that. or anything, but I'm playing with creating a chat bot for my community based on my books and my podcasts and everything. So I train the chat bot and then becomes a resource for members of the community because they can ask questions and the bot will basically give them information, but all based on my. Right. And so I'm thinking that maybe there's some way to use a public chat bot on the podcast as well, so that they could go back into older episodes and, you know, look up things like. Who, you know, who talked about this in this topic, and then the bot would go back and give them the information on on that. I love [00:33:00] connecting AI in a very human serving way. You know, it's like. Okay. Yes, it's AI. Okay. It's not a real human, but it helps us humans. Right. Because it, it brings us that information that we're looking for. So I was just, yeah, as you were talking, like, huh, I wonder if that's a really interesting and amazing idea. I don't know of a software that does that, like directly connected, connecting to to be connected to the podcast, but I can definitely look it up and let Yeah. But I will love that. Like it's, it's really helpful to know because now the burden is on the host. For example, if you want to mention older episodes, you need to grab the link, put it in the description, mention it on, on the, on the, on that episode that you can find links or episodes mentioned in the description. Because you need to let people know, right? [00:34:00] Otherwise, how do they know? So, yeah, I love this idea because it literally, it's, it's really helpful. Yeah. Two tools that I'm using or that I'm experimenting with are one is called right sonic, and it came out with the first. Chatbots and and the other one is called creator. io. So I'm looking at those and then what you mentioned to find the links, you know, to other episodes, I'm using chat GPT for that already, but you have to have the paid version for that because otherwise it doesn't provide you with links and that's the whole point, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the whole point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is great. What about, since we're talking about, okay, we're talking about AI, but we're mainly talking about humans, so what about stats? Do I need to worry about stats? How often should I be looking at numbers or should I just forget about them? People, people [00:35:00] love looking at numbers, right? We love looking at numbers. I don't. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's, that's great because I don't either, but most people some people, not most, but some people get a little bit, you know obsessed with numbers because they do want to download, they do want the listeners, but especially in the beginning, I recommend not looking at numbers at all, because they will create more stress and overwhelm than be helpful, you know? So, certainly statistics and, and, you know, analytics are great for People who have been podcasting for a while have an established audience and they want to know where do they people, where do these people are tuning in? Like how off, how long do they listen to? Is there a point that they left off? Should I [00:36:00] you know, do something for, to make the come back and come back and things like that. But this goes Once you have an established podcast, an established audience, and you know what you're doing, you can definitely have a look, for example, once a month and either do it yourself, or if you have a manager or someone else that is helping you have a meeting and, or with yourself and, you know think of the numbers and things, think how you can refine things that you're doing in the podcast. To help increase those numbers and make them go up. But yeah, I yeah. This is my simple opinion on that. Yeah, thank you. I, yeah, I'm, I don't remember when I last looked at them, but it's, oh, I do remember. Actually, it was when I changed from four podcasts to two podcasts, because I, I did a [00:37:00] test and said, okay, I'm going to do, you know, six months of that and then see where the numbers are. And the numbers didn't change. Yeah. So I had, that's amazing. I had less. And the numbers stayed the same. So I was like, well, okay. They didn't increase obviously, but the people still. And you know, so yeah, to me it was like, okay. But then. Maybe the last point I want to address, because one of my favorite podcast hosts and a past business coach, Jenny Blake, she has two podcasts. One is called Free Time and the other one is called Pivot. And she just announced that she's going to stop both podcasts and take the pause and she's been podcasting also for a very long time. And so, the question, I guess, is like, well, And I think she [00:38:00] was, like, really going all in. And she said it like that. She was going all in and probably hoping to have sponsorship and make it the, you know, her business, basically. And so that's a complete different strategy. Right? It is if we compare, podcasts with the, you know Rogan, what's his name? Yeah. Sorry. I forgot it. Joe. Joe Rogan. No. Yeah. I think so. Sorry. Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan. Yeah. Is it Joe Rogan? Yeah. So if you compare with those big guys, then obviously, You know, we, yeah, it's not even worth getting started. Let's just say, so it really depends. I guess we're coming back to this definition of success. How, how do you define success? Do you want to make money on this podcast? Well, that's a different ball game, right? If the, the podcast itself, [00:39:00] and I'm not talking getting clients, but the podcast itself, if you want to hit sponsorship. Completely different ballgame, so that's not what we're talking about here but it's important to be realistic about this goal. And that's also one of the reasons why I reduced to two episodes, and then in a way I almost reduced it even further down because now One of the episodes is also a collab partnership that I do for the workshop. So it's kind of like two in one. And so I really just reduced the time commitment for my podcast because, you know, it's like, that's what you do. It's like, well, you, you either invest time. Or money or money. Yeah. And then you see what comes back. So yeah, do you have those kind of conversations as well? Clients to really make sure that their expectations [00:40:00] are aligned with what what it is. they can get out of this podcast. Definitely do. And those conversations usually come up from people who have been podcasting for a while, for a while that now they want to, you know, have sponsors and make a little money over all of the podcast, which is definitely but there are a lot of factors, like it's a whole nother conversation, talk about sponsorships and how you can get sponsors or even getting on a network. There are different ways that you can make money over the podcast, but I wouldn't say that a podcast can like sustain you can bring you, you know, a sustainable amount of money each month to, you To be actually sustainable to become a business or at least I, I haven't, like, I haven't worked with those big guys who, who are making money, like even just with an episode, but yeah. [00:41:00] So That is the reason I recommend going more and focusing more on the building relationships aspect and even getting clients rather than, you know, focusing on sponsorships, ads, and ads, yeah, definitely ads is, ads are helpful. I, I recommend. People to have like more of a self promoted ad self, you know ads about your offerings, promotions, or collaborations with someone. But yeah, I wouldn't recommend someone to start the podcast if the, the ultimate goal is to make money off of it or, or make it a business because it's not impossible, but it's, it's really tough and it takes a lot of time to get there. Yeah, thanks for thanks for being real. I think that's yeah, really important here. As [00:42:00] we're wrapping up 2 more questions. Where do you see the future of podcasting? And then I'll ask you the last question, but let's go there 1st. The future of podcasting. So that's really interesting. I feel like podcasting is going all in, in the video aspect. So I feel like many audio podcasts and audio shows will be You know, we'll switch to video first shows because of the recent changes of Google podcast shutting down and YouTube taking over. And it makes sense like for audio shows to become video first shows. So I feel like the interaction part and the engagement part will become more. Will become easier if we're thinking that more and more shows are becoming video shows. So, you know, [00:43:00] the, the, these difficulty that has been. So far to connect and interact with listeners will be easier, I guess. And yeah I think that more and more shows will also be able to make money off of the podcast or to, you know, To achieve their objectives, whatever they are because the features and because of the expansion, you know, of, of podcasting features and YouTube is investing so much into podcasting. So I think the industry will be will grow like, Has been growing rapidly, but the, the growth will continue to surprise us with the power of podcasting. Nice. I'm glad I'm I made that switch and I'm posting everything on YouTube as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:44:00] definitely. Well, this has been really, really great. Thanks so much for, for being here and answering the questions that y'all had about podcasting. Podcasting. I always ask one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week, Krista? Oh, that's a wonderful question. So I'm grateful for it's not related to the business. I'm grateful for having my business and for all of my clients that I adore, but I'm most grateful for becoming a mom and, you know, getting to know baby that I just love so much and grateful for having a family, you know? So yeah. Wonderful. This is what I'm grateful for. Yeah. Is he sleeping right now? Is the baby sleeping right now? No, no, no. The baby is, is out for a walk with his dad. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much [00:45:00] for, for being here, Krista. It's been a pleasure. so much for having me. It's been really great, great to talk to, talk with you and talk about a little about podcasting. I hope listeners find it helpful. And yeah, it's been great. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you. And I, I will mention all the links where people can find you in the intro and the outro. Yeah. Thanks so much. Bye. Bye. Ep 188 outro: I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and can apply it to your own business. Of course, especially if you're thinking about starting a podcast. I don't know if I really underlined it as much as I wanted to. Is that for me, my podcasts, because I did at least three really helped me not just with authority, but creating these deeper relationships with [00:46:00] people that before I just didn't have any way to connect with. So I'm super, super grateful for, for the podcast and still enjoy it. In order to find out more about Krissa and her work, you can go to krissastow. com. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle, which Krissa is also a member of. Right now, we're starting to plan our next community event, the Humane Marketing Circle Expo, an event by members, for members, and the public. And the topic this year is business with heart, putting humans first, we can't wait to invite you to a week full of our members, events, workshops, roundtables, and lots of moments to discuss and connect. And if you'd like to be part of it from the inside as a member, well, Now is the right time to join us. We'd love to have you. [00:47:00] Besides this event, we also meet at least twice per month. Once for a meetup around the business topic and once for a workshop with an aligned speaker. If you haven't found your community yet. Well, consider joining us if it feels aligned. It's much more than marketing. It's really humane business altogether, business for humans. More details at humanemarketing. com forward slash community. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 8. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course. As well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the [00:48:00] planet, because we are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

This is the first episode of a series of unplugged, no bells and whistles solo episodes around the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. If you missed an episode you can go to www.humane.marketing/7ps To reflect upon the 7Ps for your business, get your 1-Page Marketing Plan at www.humane.marketing/1page To work on this marketing foundation in a small group, join us in the Marketing Like We're Human program. Find out more at www.humane.marketing/program

Join us for another episode on the Humane Marketing podcast as we explore how to ethically partner with AI, with our guest, Naully Nicolas. We talk about Naully's journey into the world of artificial intelligence, the crucial ethical and legal considerations surrounding AI implementation, and how AI empowers us to work smarter, not harder. Naully shares his PLATON framework, inspired by Plato and infused with philosophical principles, guiding us through the pillars of legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Together, we envision the future of AI and work, inspiring us as Humane Marketers to embrace technology with empathy and mindfulness, shaping a future where humanity thrives alongside innovation. What we addressed in this conversation: How Naully got interested and started with AI The ethical and legal considerations of AI How AI enables us to work smarter not harder Naully's PLATON framework, based on Plato and philosophical considerations (principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity and neutrality, because in French Plato has an N at the end) How Naully sees the future of AI and work and much more... --- Ep 187 whole episode Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Santacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website. Humane dot marketing. Hello, friends. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership, I'd say. We're partnering with AI. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing mandala. And if you're new here and this is your first time listening, well, A big warm welcome. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, these seven [00:03:00] P's in the mandala. Well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's in the shape of a mandala at humane. marketing forward slash one page. Humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. For this conversation about partnering with AI in a humane way, I brought in my colleague, Noli Nicola. Noli is renowned Digital transformation consultant with over 16 years of experience in I. T. engineering and 12 years in marketing specializing in emerging technologies like web three, the metaverse and A. I. Noli provides pragmatic advice to business leaders. Particularly in [00:04:00] SMEs, navigating the complexities of the digital age. His stoic philosophy combined with a profound understanding of the digital landscape makes him an invaluable guide for companies seeking strategic opportunities in technology. So what we addressed in this conversation with Noli is how he got started and Interested in AI, the ethical and legal considerations of working with AI, especially as a humane marketer, how AI enables us to work smarter and not harder, Noli's framework based on Plato and philosophical considerations. Principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Because in French, Plato is Platon and has an N at the end. [00:05:00] So that's where the neutrality comes from. And then also how Nolly sees the future of AI and work and so much more. So I'd say without further ado, let's get into it. Hi Noli, how are you? Como ti va? Naully: I'm fine, and you? Sarah: Yes, I'm great, thank you. You're in the middle of a move, so very stressful. We can't really use AI to help us move yet, or can we? Naully: Yes, I also I hope I use AI maybe for to do the planning for my moving, so it was quite useful. Sarah: Oh, wow. You'll have to tell us more about that. But yeah, I'm glad to have this conversation in between trips and moving boxes and things like that. Because yeah, we're, we're super excited to have you come and teach an in depth workshop on May 1st. [00:06:00] And, and this is just kind of like a teaser and I'll ask you some questions that we then also have more time to go in to on, on May 1st. And so. If you're listening to this and feel like, Oh, I want more of this content. And please join us on May 1st that it's a 90 minute workshop, humane. marketing forward slash workshop, but let's dive into it. And I'll, I'll just kind of start with how did you get into AYA, AI NALI and, and, and like, what does it represent for you in this day and age? Naully: How I discovered AI, I would say it's a normal step in my long career because I've been working for almost I would say 19 years into the IT universe. So, and also since my childhood, I was very curious, I like to dismount my own [00:07:00] PC and remote the remote again the PC. And it's also. On my personal view, I was there during the, the passage between the old internet, which was the I would say the effects of Minitel for some, and let's say the first browsing on internet. So it was like into the nineties, I think, around, around this era. And Then I work in IT for almost 20 years and I saw the progress. Also, I saw the constraint also of let's say the digital world. And I discovered AI when I was, reading a book, I would say it was not only, I would say sci fi books, but also I would say it was, I came across a book, so I don't remember the name and I was sure that in the next step of our digital world will be the AI. And And I was able also to sense [00:08:00] the switch between the, let's say, all the world. And I'm not that old, but the way that we interact with the computer and the new way that we are in this AI universe now. Sarah: Do you feel like we're completely there in the AI universe or we're still like at the very beginning of it? I Naully: think we are in the beginning because most of them. Approach that we have is only true chat, GPT and code and song, but I think it's only the tip of the iceberg because maybe your audience don't really make sense, but we're already using AI in every day. So, for example, for in Spotify, for example, it's an algorithm, it's not AI per se, but we are using the data, right? Yeah. Like when you're browsing on Netflix or something. It's a kind of [00:09:00] AI, which is gripping you the best show after you finish one. I'll tell you how you finish this show, there's also this one in which you might be interested. So, Sarah: yeah, so it's, it's kind of this blurry line between algorithms that are kind of gearing us towards where they want to go. And then also. Yeah, AI for like what you said, planning things like a move and, and probably if you can plan a move with AI, you can also plan a vacation with AI. Like you can do so many things and, and we'll get into some more of that. But I think when I brought up the topic of AI and. You know, Chachi PT is kind of the most note one right now. In the humane marketing circle, our community, there's a lot of I wouldn't, maybe a day, a day wouldn't say it's fear, but I think it's fear or [00:10:00] hesitation. And then there's also all these ethical considerations, which. Obviously are very important for someone who's doing humane business and humane marketing. So, yeah, what are some ethical considerations we should keep in mind when, when we're going down this road of using AI in our business? Naully: I would say if we talk in terms of fear, I can say we have the same when I would say the first software network appears. So because some people are afraid to me on Facebook, never, never, never, never. Some people switch to to Facebook anyways, but I think the thing different with AI is the fact that they can aggregate a lot of data, which are mostly it's a personal data. And also the carry things is they can be more [00:11:00] personalized that before, because I would say before we look up information into Google, but now we can create our own, I would say chat GPT with in every sector, for example, but I can create a personal coach GPT, which contains all my Let's say, personal view or approach that no other coach can have. And there is the main, let's say, reflection about what, what are stored, those data, because now we can put, let's say, more personal data, like the, the people that we have interaction with, name, date, address and so on. And those that are located in country who are less more, I would say, regarding internal flow. For example, in the US, we have the Patriot [00:12:00] Act, in which any federal agency can look into those data without asking you. So that's why in Europe they have the G-G-D-P-R. Sarah: mm-hmm . Naully: And now they in, they want to enforce the EU Act in, which is a kind of G-E-D-P-R for ai. So it's to determine which is the good usage of AI and which is the, would say risky usage of hair. Sarah: They're trying to kind of come up with laws. They're catching up, really. They have to catch up. Yeah, because there Naully: is some issue, for example, with AI using for credit score, for example, because we have to we have to determine who is responsible for these tools. Sarah: It Naully: is the developer. It is the person who is using the tools. Or this is the user, [00:13:00] Sarah: right? Naully: So I would say the same, like if you buy a car, there is a responsibility. It's the one who drives the car, that's the car manufacturer, Sarah: right? Naully: So, Sarah: so the Naully: ethics is the main, I would say the main point of ethics in AI is to determine the responsibility. in the creation and the use of those tools. Sarah: Right. Yeah. Because I think the one thing to keep in mind is that you can always go. Either way, right. You can use AI for good, or you can use AI for evil. And that's what we're all afraid of. When we talk about, oh, AI is going to take over, the robots are going to take over, well, we're afraid of things going in the wrong direction. And so is that what they're now trying, trying to kind of come up with legal responsibilities of who's [00:14:00] responsible for what? Naully: Yeah, I, as I said before, it's. It's not perfect or ideal, but it's better than nothing because at least we have a framework in which someone can and which some people can refer to, so it's not the wild, wild west in terms of AI, so there's some moral, moral and legal framework. In the use of AI, Sarah: right? Is this what happened after Elon Musk and a bunch of other people sent that open letter? Was that in response to that or kind of happened Naully: anyway? I think it's that. But also there is the thing that. They don't want to this kind of tool to be out of control because things can go badly and we can see in country like China that are using AI not. In the right use, [00:15:00] mostly for surveillance of their steel. And I think the country in Europe, they don't want to that rule. So, so, and I think also there is some moral issues of also, of kind of still. Sarah: Right, right, yeah, it's interesting because everything happens so fast that governments and legal people, they, they have a hard time catching up with everything because that's, that's from the old paradigm. So it's just like very slow and admin heavy and all of that. Right. So you think there is ever going to be a point where. They're on the same page and they caught up. Well, Naully: there is now, I think, more and more countries are, I would say, are just according to the same principle, because I think there is, I would say, there is some universal [00:16:00] principle that you will find anywhere in the world. It's the world of justice. Sarah: I think Naully: everyone want want to be as the Stanford justice, and also to have the opportunity to questions also the AI, because it's like, Well, you're, let's say, in your common life, you're also the right to question if you're arrested by a police officer, you have the right to, to have a lawyer and also to to be in a tribunal. So it should be the same also when we use AI for this, I think it's the kind, it's the same. Universal principle that you can find in any country from Switzerland to France to Peru, anywhere. So, Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we went in a bit big picture in terms of, you know, what needs to change in a society on the legal aspect, the justice aspect for us in order to, to [00:17:00] work with AI. But now if we take it down to our entrepreneurial level, how can we. integrate in, you know, AI in our businesses in a way that is. Ethical and makes us work smarter and not harder, but also stays away from like, the one thing that I don't like about AI is, is this push towards even more productivity, toward even more working and, you know, more hustle. And I'm like, well, no, I think that's getting it wrong. It's like, we have this amazing tool that helps us actually. Work smarter, not harder, but then freeze us with more time to be more human. That's the way I look at it. So what are some practical ways that you have worked with entrepreneurs that they use [00:18:00] AI to work smarter and not harder? Naully: But the first thing that I told my. Entrepreneur is that AI is not there to replace you, but to help you. So you should consider AI as a tool because AI is not perfect because by extension, AI was created by a new man. So the human is not perfect per se. So also AI are subject as we call hallucination because. Yeah, it's predicting, let's say, words, it's not contextualizing the words, so you have also understand the limits of the AI because it can be considered as a magic tool can rule, but you have also to understand that AI has also its own limits. So you won't, you won't pass you in any ways, you will simply help you [00:19:00] maybe in turn now in term of workload, I would say that. AI is a good tool if you want to, I don't know, manage your content. For example, if you are someone who loves to write content, it could be a good assistant, but it won't replace you to create your content, but also it can help you to I don't know, create a content schedule for the next two, once a month, next two months. And then you can schedule those contents and then you can sort of manage your day to day life also easier because you already create your content for the month for the next two months. So you can maybe take a day off because usually before you took, well, I don't know, one week to create your content, to write it and publish it. And those, I would say, save time, you [00:20:00] can save it elsewhere. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. You can actually invest it in the human relations, right? Yeah. Have, have coffee with a friend or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I like how you said you can help you, it assists you, it can help you with brainstorming ideas and, and give you content ideas you know, never ending lists of content ideas. Yeah. And it can then even help you, guide you through writing it. But I think we should not just rely on AI to now take over all the writing because knowing you and what you write, I would definitely be able to tell, I think, if all of a sudden it would just just be AI writing it. Yes, you can train it to a certain extent probably to, you know, have talk like you. And that's what I'm experimenting with as well. But then I [00:21:00] still. Go in, like I still am the manager, right? And AI is the assistant and then I have to change it and make sure it speaks like I do. So I think that's really important to understand because What we see a lot out there is like these bland sounding things, right, that you can tell, oh, this is just like, you know, AI created content that has no humanness and no personality to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then Google actually just said that they're starting to punish the pages on Google that are only content, I mean, AI created. So that's a, that's a good good move from them. Obviously they're a bit scared as well, I think, but yeah, I think that's a good move. So where would we, would you tell. Actually, before, before that, I, I [00:22:00] know you have this framework based on Blayton. Yeah. And, and so I, I'm just wondering if you could explain a little bit. Your approach to philosophy and AI, because that kind of, from hearing that, that kind of sounds like an, it's, you know, an oxymoron, like how do those two go together? But Naully: tell us more Sarah: about it. Naully: Yeah, for sure. So I, I, I'm always being, I would say I'm a huge history buff. So I always has book in my house and I love read books about history and all kinds of books could be philosophy, psychology, and I found that philosophy was a good way to be grounded in what we are doing and all what we are thinking, especially in this time with everything is going so fast and we can be so lost [00:23:00] rapidly. And during my one of my reading, I came across a biography of. Plateau, which is plateau in French. And I was thinking that maybe we could use some aspect of the story, story season, but in how we approach technology, because sometimes we are using technology because we have. We are using it, but we don't really think what we do with it project. So that's how I came up, I came with this idea of Platon, which is put in French. And the first, let's say P is for principle in the wishes. What are the, the principle that I put it in my content, it could be also in my content or the principle that on why I'm using the ai. So it ask me to [00:24:00] myself when I'm using a tool, which could be charge GPT and some to ask me what are the consequence of using this tool if the tool are, I would say. Ethically based or the people are treated, I would say, correctly or humanly. And then the L can stand for legality. Maybe it's more about when I'm using an AI tool is my content is not under, it's not copyrighted by someone else. And actually, there is a huge debate about AI, because mostly they are using data scrapped from the internet, and most of the data are copyrighted. Sarah: So, Naully: so you need to ask yourself, is the thing that I'm using is completely legal or not? Then there's the A, [00:25:00] which is for accountability, which I have to be concerned that I'm using a AI tool. Don't say that if for example, if I'm putting wrong information, because I use AI tool, I have to count accountable after I, that I put, if I use, for example, if I'm using a AI tool like me Journey, maybe I should be aware that maybe I'm using copyrighted. Image from illustrator and maybe if needed, but who put any annotation when I'm using those kind of image also to be transparent and the T for transparency. So for example, is to be transparent in the use of AI tool, especially if you're working for a journalist. You have to say that for example, that I, this part or this part of your article has been [00:26:00] written with the help of AI2 or this image has been modified by the AI2. For example, recently there is a journalist who made a Documentary about the young in Iran, and it's instead of using blurred image, they use the, he praised the faces of the person who are being interviewed with AI generated image. So, so they made a disclaimer saying that those people faces have been generated by AI. So, and O stands for objectivity. So you have to be like concerned or so, but on why you're using the AI in your marketing. It's of course, the N stands for neutrality, which it says that it's mostly when you're would say. Using AI to in marketing, it's saying that you are [00:27:00] using the tool, not in a harmful way. So you should be conscious that you are not using the tool to do arm on or give false information. Sarah: I love, I love that. I love these words. Let's so principles, legality, accountability, transparency, objectivity, and neutrality. Yeah, they, they sound very humane, like, you know, they're very humane words and it's, it's a really good idea to, yeah, to go into AI with these considerations, right? To, to think about that deeply And, and we'll talk more about that in the, in the workshop and, and I think you have some you've created a game, so I look Yes. Yeah. Taking some questions from that game around that framework. Yeah. So in terms of where we're going with this, because like you said, it's just, you know, the kind of like, we're just seeing a tiny [00:28:00] bit of the iceberg right now. So where do you think. We're heading in terms of entrepreneurs using AI, how is it going to take over more of our, yeah, workload and what so many people like last year, this year, I don't hear it so much anymore, but so many people were afraid of AI taking over their jobs. So, so yeah what do you see as future development? Naully: I think also people fear what they don't understand also, because really new is like the first internet came up. We had the same fear because people didn't know how. How to use it, what it is really, because, and I think it's, there is a lot of work in terms of education, in terms of educating people, because, I won't say it's difficult to stop technology. [00:29:00] So then it's better to. Learn it with it. That's to fear it. So I think also it's it asks us to maybe to embrace the change because a lot of people don't like to change. Also, and for some people change bring fear because fear, but maybe they have to, if they work for a job, like, I don't know, like service job for like the 10 last year. Maybe they need to go to school again. So maybe they don't have the money or don't have the energy or maybe they're near from the retirement. So they ask, they ask themselves why they, that I need to go to school because I just have to five years to work, then I will be able to retire. And I think, I consider we are on a good path. It's not the perfect one, because at [00:30:00] least we are not into the apocalyptic one, the one we can see into the movie, because I think we can, we are able to see the fear. Also, there is some people who are pro, some people are against. I think neither side does. The monopoly of a reason and for now, I think it's in, in between, I think we should be in both sides. Maybe you have fear of maybe this technology, but also we can embrace technology because maybe they can help us to with our current, I would say. On environment issue, for example, or or maybe with a social issue also. So I think it's there's a lot of challenge for this technology and it's difficult to say what happened in five years, 10 years because they're in a few months, every, every two, every [00:31:00] two weeks, the new AI app. So it's difficult to say what, what the future brings. Sarah: Yeah, it will happen so fast though, right? Like that's the main thing with this AI technology. It's like, like I remember when Chachi PT came out, well, it's been already out, but nobody talked about it. And then within, let's say three weeks, everybody was talking about it. And so that's probably going to happen again with the next thing and the next thing, and the next thing, and. And what I like that you said is like, yes, we're on the right path because it would be probably really spooky if there was no fear at all like that. And I think that's kind of where Elon Musk and the gang, they got a bit freaked out because they're like, whoa, like this is going too fast. So they backed up a bit. And, and so I think that's a healthy. [00:32:00] kind of relationship to, to something new that, that we need to learn to live with. And so I appreciate that. Naully: I think it's I love to compare AI like the yin and yang. Sarah: Mm. Naully: It's like it should be equ equilibrium between those two. Sarah: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Naully: it can be good, it can be bad. I think it's a mix of, can be cannot, it can be not. Also fully and utopia. Or fully a dystopia. Sarah: Right. Naully: I think it should be both at the same time, so. Sarah: A little mix. A little mix. Naully: I think it's like, I think I think it's like us. I think we, there is some day we are full of energy. Some day we are just, we just want to lay in bed all day. And I think it's this the circle of life also, we have your spring, summer, autumn, [00:33:00] winter, I think it's a cycle. So, Sarah: yeah, and you're right. I mean, it's in the end it's created by humans. And so it's still the humans that influences AI. And so if humans. Right now you can't say that humans are all good. Like we're in one of the biggest messes that we've ever been in. And so how can we expect the AI to just be beautiful and loving and all of that. So I feel like if we're working on becoming better humans, then the AI. We'll follow that trend. So that's, yeah, that's kind of my thought on that, but yeah, any, any closing thoughts that you have, that you, like what you're going to talk about on the workshop, maybe give us a, a little sneak preview of, of what we're going to do there. Naully: I [00:34:00] think we are, we are going to the. Ethics of AI and also the the ground base also of ai, which is which, which is where is it is and which is, is not, mm. Sarah: Right? Yeah. And then also doing some, some breakout rooms, right? And, and, and also, yeah, working on, on different, Naully: so we'll do some workshops and, Mm-Hmm, , all the, the, the pattern framework is working. Sarah: Yeah, I, I look forward to that framework and the, and the questions from that. So yeah, exciting. So yeah, again thank you so much for coming on, Noli. And if you're listening to this and you're interested in AI, but you're just a little bit also afraid of, you know, how does it work in a, in a business that is supposed to be humane. In marketing, that is supposed to be humane. Well, I invite you to join us for this workshop on [00:35:00] May 1st with Noli, because we're definitely going to approach it from the humane side of things. So, Naully: I just say, I just want to say that you mean it's always in loop AI or Sarah: not. Say that again. I didn't. Naully: I would say the AI human is always in the loop or not. So, yeah, Sarah: yeah, that's, yeah, that's nicely said. So yeah, do join us on, on May 1st go to humane. marketing forward slash workshop to reserve your seat and Noli and I look forward to having you there. Thanks so much. You're there. Yes. Thank you. Thanks for coming on to the podcast as well, Noli. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Please find out more about Noli and his work at nolinicola. ch and [00:36:00] join us on Facebook for a 90 minute workshop on May 1st in the safety of our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. Members can attend these workshops for free, but you can join us with a pay what you can amount between 15 and 27. Find out more and reserve your spot at humane. marketing. com. And if you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M 1 8 7. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. Such as the Humane Business Manifesto and my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who [00:37:00] cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

Welcome to another episode of the Humane Marketing podcast. In this episode, we delve into the realm of humane video with Lou Bortone, exploring how video content can be a powerful tool for authentic connection and trust-building in today's business world.  Join us as we uncover the core principles of creating videos that resonate on a deeply human level, discover the importance of authenticity in fostering a loyal audience, explore cutting-edge AI tools for video creation, and gain valuable insights into future trends and actionable tips tailored specifically for solopreneurs.  Get ready to be inspired and equipped to use video as a means to stand out authentically and thrive in your business endeavors. In this conversation with Lou, we addressed the following talking points: How Lou got started with video and has seen it evolve into a tool for humane and authentic connection The core principles of creating video content that resonates on a human level How authenticity builds trust and a loyal audience Tools for video creation, including AI Future trends and actionable tips for solopreneurs and much more... --- Transcript 186 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea, like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years. business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, Have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Hello friends, welcome back to another episode at the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And I'm talking to a long time online friend, Lou Bortone. If you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version [00:03:00] of the seven P's of marketing at humane. marketing. com. One page, the number one and the word page. And also just a reminder for my non native English speakers, humane is with an E at the end. So it's not human, it's humane. So humane with an E dot marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. All right, let me tell you a little bit about Lou and from his bio, you will kind of immediately kind of grasp his sense of humor. If Don Vito Corleone, Marty Scorsese and Jerry Seinfeld got together to make an AI baby, you might end up with Lou Bortone. Lu is known as the Video Godfather and is conciliare to some of the brightest names in digital marketing. [00:04:00] He's a video marketing expert, an author, speaker, and host of the Godfather podcast. Prior to becoming a video printer, Lu spent more than 20 years in the television business before being run out of. Hollywood. Lou is also a father to twins, a rescuer of pugs, and an expert at Italian curses. I'll always remember meeting Lou in real life back in, I think it was 2017, when he picked me up in a Red Beetle or something. Like that at this tiny train station in Camucho Cortona and, and that's in Tuscany and then drove us up the hill. And I could tell he had no experience with stick driving to our retreat house for the week. And these in person meetings are really just so special in this online world, aren't they? So that's why I went back to Lou for this episode [00:05:00] around video. So in this conversation with Lou, we addressed the following talking points, how Lou got started with video and has seen it evolve into a tool for humane and authentic connection, the core principles of creating video content that resonates on a human level, how authenticity builds trust. And a loyal audience, tools for video creation, including AI tools, future trends and actionable tips for solopreneurs to get started or to get better with video and so much more. So let's dive into this conversation with Lou Bortone. Hey Lou, so glad to see you again and get a chance to talk shop with you about video. And of course, in the off recording, we talked about Sicily because we have a common love for everything Italy, right? Lou Bortone: Exactly. Yeah. And you're one of the [00:06:00] online folks that I've actually met in real life. So that's right. Sarah: Yeah. Which is always, you know, it's such an exception. And so it's yeah. Something special. I, I was part of your, what do you call it? Mastermind Lou Bortone: or Tuscany and yeah, and we had the few years of the little interruption of the pandemic and all that, but hopefully that's all behind us. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. That was amazing. Loved it. Cool. So I have you today to talk about video and we were just, Discussing, well, maybe we're going to call it video like we're human or YouTube, like we're human or something like that. And then you share it that you just kind of focus a lot on the trust and authenticity. And so we'll definitely get into that. So really looking forward to it. Why don't you start by sharing how you got. Into video how you you know, you're calling yourself the godfather of video, tell Lou Bortone: us Yeah. [00:07:00] The long and circuitous route too. And you know, it's funny 'cause I think people call me that because they know of my love of Italy and Sicily and the Godfather, but all really, because I've been doing it for a really long time. So I was in the television business for many years in Los Angeles and I think it was probably around. 2000 on 1998 that I really got online and started to do things online. And when our twins were born, we decided, well, let's leave, you know, Hollywood and La La Land and go some, go back to family and in Boston. And that's kind of when I started doing the online video stuff which was fun because the way I discovered YouTube is that I was helping some people. Do a sketch comedy show for like a local cable access. And we started to put the videos on YouTube and really get a lot of attention there. We realized, Oh, this, you know, we were kind of onto something. So I was on from a very early, you know, back in 2005 when YouTube started and I've been doing online video ever since. And I love it because [00:08:00] I'm an introvert and I don't have to be in person necessarily with people. And even though I don't love being on camera for me, it's a lot easier than in person networking. And I just love the fact that we can do this and sort of have our own TV station, our own podcast. I mean, 10, 20 years ago, this would have been impossible. So Sarah: yeah, that's how I got here. That's insane. It's like mind blowing that, you know, 2005, that it really seems like ages and ages, but that's Lou Bortone: when it came out. So I guess that's what, 18 years. Oh my gosh. I feel so old. Sarah: It really is a long time ago and of course, you know, it went through phases of ups and downs and, and it seems like right now it really is kind of like coming back and, and I want to know from you, why do you think that it has this comeback now? What, Lou Bortone: what, what? It's interesting. And it's the same with, you know, remember podcasting sort of cooled off [00:09:00] for a while and now it's harder than ever. I think part of it is that You know, when, when I was growing up, when we were growing up, you know, there were just a few TV stations and a few options. And now with YouTube and podcasts and streaming, you know, we've got access to, to the, to basically a worldwide audience every time we turn on our computer or our PC. Put our phone on. So I think that's part of it. It's just the accessibility and also the fact that folks who maybe are a little younger than us grew up with. They never didn't. You know, they always had Internet. They always had you do. They always had streaming and all this kind of stuff. So for them. A screen is a screen is a screen, they don't care if it's TV, they don't care if it's you know, cable, they don't care if it's YouTube, you know, whatever they're watching, they can watch anything, anytime, and that's why, you know, another crazy statistic is that YouTube has more viewers than all the U. S. TV networks, all the cable networks, all the streaming services, so when you think of TV, you don't usually think of YouTube, but [00:10:00] YouTube is TV, and TV is YouTube. Sarah: I mean, if we think of our kids, right, that's, that's all they're watching. They're not watching TV. It's Lou Bortone: definitely the YouTube. Multi screens. You know, they're, they're watching YouTube on a, on a traditional television screen, but they're on Twitter or X at the same time with their friends. And I don't know how they do it. I can barely manage one screen. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. I also feel that. You know, we were also kind of part of the blogging era. And, and so I feel like, you know, Google has changed their algorithm again. And people are like, well, people don't really read blogs anymore. And we can't get any traction with SEO. Now that the market is getting flooded with all the AI content. So maybe it's also, do you think it's also because of that? People are like, well, at least that. That's what it was for me. I'm like, I got to pay attention to Lou Bortone: YouTube. Absolutely. And then the other thing with business owners, I mean, you know, we always read video is the way to [00:11:00] get the most amount of information in the shortest amount of time. So if we're all multitasking, we're all really over scheduled, we're all really busy. Oftentimes it's like, I can't sit down and read a newspaper. But what's that? You know, it's, I have to, you know, go to YouTube and find this quick answer. I have to go to see this thing on Tik TOK or, you know, so it's really just a great way to get access to any information anywhere in the world. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, it's, it's, I love it, especially when it's timestamped. So it's like, Oh, I don't even have to watch the whole thing. It's just like, yeah, exactly. So, so yeah. Lou Bortone: So I think now the thing is that. The, the consumer, the viewer, it has more control than ever. Cause like I said, when we were at least in the U S when we were growing up, it's like you had three TV networks and, and they controlled everything. They controlled what you saw, what you heard. And now it's kind of like, well, the consumer can go anywhere they want and see anything they want. So they're completely in control now. Sarah: So that kind [00:12:00] of probably if someone has never done any video kind of sounds also intimidating because it's like, wow, like there's this giant audience out there. Okay. You already mentioned as an introvert, sometimes YouTube is actually probably easier than the networking thing, but maybe it also feels like, well. What am I going to share that hasn't already been said out there? Yeah. So what would you say to that Lou Bortone: question? I think, you know, everybody has their unique spin and everybody has their own, you know Perspective. So it's like you have something to offer. A lot of times if I'm working with my clients or students, they feel like, well, you know, like you said, well, you know, what can I say that hasn't already been said? And I tell them, look, you know, you have a message. You have a unique message. You have a unique way of doing things and your Passion to get that message out to the world has to be stronger than your fear of being on camera. Because again, you know, the other thing too is now that we're all able to be on camera, we're not walking the red carpet at the Oscars. We're just putting on a podcast or a YouTube channel [00:13:00] and showing up and trying to be authentic. Sarah: Right. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about this trust building and authenticity, like what are some key points here that maybe a story I can tell is like, I remember when I put up my first video and I just seen them all because I cleaned up my YouTube channel and I'm like, Oh my God, this is terrible. But I remember like really sweating it like, Oh my God, I have to prepare everything. Yeah. So. Like, do we really need to have this perfect video or how much of it can we just wing and really be just human and Lou Bortone: authentic? I think you can wing 80 percent of it, probably. I mean, I often make the distinction between quick videos and keeper videos. It's like, okay, a keeper video, your homepage video on your website, you know, you want to, you don't want to be in your pajamas, probably. If it's an important video that's going to have shelf life, like your homepage [00:14:00] video, or if you're selling, you know, a thousand dollar coaching program, you don't, you know, you want to look professional. So those keeper videos, you probably want to spend more time and effort on, but if it's, you know, quick tips, I mean, oftentimes I just think of something and then just go to YouTube and share it. So quick tips or Facebook lives or any kind of live video, it's really more about, you know, just showing up. And sharing your message and being authentic. And a lot of times people think video is about the technology. And what I try to sort of, you know, reshape that or respin it as, no, it's really about connection and relationships and engagement. It doesn't matter what technology we're using. It just matters that we're connecting and being authentic and sharing ourselves. Hmm. Sarah: I remember we, we did the workshop together or something about video for introverts back in the days. And, and I remember we did kind of have one module on, on on technology. And I'm thinking maybe that actually lost [00:15:00] a bit of importance now that. You know, we're so used to these shorts on YouTube and even famous people just kind of like filming themselves. You think it has changed maybe also over time? Yeah. And Lou Bortone: I think that the pandemics accelerated it really quickly because, you know, and basically in, you know, a day we all had to move to zoom and we had to move our events to zoom and we had to move everything online. So I think that just accelerated it. And, you know, it was almost like. You know, well, I don't have a choice. I have to be on camera because that's the only way I can connect with my audience right now, right? Yeah. And I think the other thing was now people realize, Oh, this is, you know, this isn't that scary. And this isn't that difficult technically. And we always hear about no like and trust. And I think people finally realized like, wow, this is a great way to build no like and trust. Sarah: Yeah, it's so true. I'm always surprised that people are watching whole episodes, you know, that I put [00:16:00] on the podcast as well, but no, people actually watched the YouTube version of it as well. And probably it's because that know, like, and trust, right? Lou Bortone: Yeah, definitely. The connection, the ability to watch it on the go, cause people are watching on their phones. And I did, you know, I've, I've done podcasting. Off and on, but the reason that I finally committed to doing a podcast was I saw a statistic that YouTube was now the number one source for podcasts, more than Apple, more than Google, more than Amazon people are going to YouTube for podcasts and whether that's just. Kind of listening to it when, you know, with a slide on the screen or having an actual interview or seeing the person on screen, either way there, it's become, you know, kind of the go to place to see and hear podcasts. Sarah: Yeah, that's interesting. I did see a difference between just having that slide and the moving, you know, lines which I did before. So I didn't have the video portion of [00:17:00] it. And now with, with the actual faces, like there is more engagement or there is more views because yeah, obviously it's more interesting to, to see two people talking than just a line. Yeah. Lou Bortone: Yeah. And that's the other thing that's been interesting too is now with all the AI stuff. It's like, I think there's going to be not really a backlash with AI, but more of a need for like, okay, I don't want to see a robotic, you know, synthesized video. I mean, yeah, I can create an AI version of myself. It's like, hi, I'm Lou, you know, and recreate my voice, but it's still not you, you know, it's still not the real person. Sarah: Yeah. And, and I really feel like that's why I like the really human and authentic videos the best, where you see some people, you know, they have like this fancy background and their logo is up there and their book is up there. I'm like, I get that from a marketing perspective, but. [00:18:00] It doesn't feel real. It feels like if I would see you on the street, I probably wouldn't recognize you because you're wearing so much makeup and I don't, yeah, I don't really recognize you. So for me, it's really that real humanness that comes across. Yeah, Lou Bortone: and that's why I like, you know, I don't do as much live video as I should, but I kind of call it like, oh, a live video is to come as you are party, you know, just show up and, and, you know, be yourself and don't worry that the dogs are barking in the background because that's the way it works, you know, like it's, there's going to be distractions, there's going to be craziness going on in the background, but that just makes it more real. Sarah: Talking about that. I just watched, remember that BBC interview where the walks in and then the baby rolls in and I just watched that Lou Bortone: again. Sometimes those are viral moments. Like, you know, the wife's son doing, trying to do a professional interview and the guy walks by. [00:19:00] You know, husband walks behind her in his boxer shorts, you know, it's like, we're trying to do video here, people. Sarah: And what, what I didn't remember is that that was in 2017. So way pre COVID. So that's why it was like super shocking. You know, back then we were all still like, Ooh, you know, has to be super professional. So I feel like a lot has changed since the pandemic. Yeah. And again, Lou Bortone: You have to find that balance because like I kid like you don't want to look like a hostage video. I mean, you don't want to have really terrible lighting and yeah, that it may be authentic, but it's still not easy to watch like if the lighting is really bad or if the audio is bad. So you have to find that balance between like, look, I have to, you know, look relatively professional, but I don't have to be so polished that I'm on doing an interview on CNN or something. Sarah: Exactly. Yeah, it's, it's true. It's that balance that you're still human and creating trust. But without looking [00:20:00] like, yeah, you're just going on CNN. So we talked a little bit about AI what I just recently started using is this Tool called Clip, Opus Clip or something. Oh yeah. Yes. Opus Clip. And it lets you create these little shorts from longer videos. Right. And, and I love that because it's repurposing existing content. And so, yeah, do you know any other great AI tools Lou Bortone: that people are using? I did a series on some AI tools and Opus Clip was one of them, which is great because if you're going to create content. You might as well get as much mileage out of it as possible. So if you're doing a podcast and you wanted to do clips from the podcast, or you want to do 60 second segments, Opus clip is great for that. Pictory. ai is really good because you can, you know, make your videos more professional and edit them and add, you know, B roll and background footage. And the one that I use probably every single day is descript. com. And the reason [00:21:00] I like that is because for people who are not You know, video editors, you can edit the text and all those changes are made, you know, you're basically editing a Word document and then the changes transfer the video. So I've been using that for pod, you know, to produce podcasts and really every kind of video because it's, it's really faster and you can look more professional and more quickly. Yeah, Sarah: and I love the fact that you just highlight all the ums and take them Lou Bortone: all out. Yeah, I had no idea how many times I used the words and until I found a descriptor like, oh, I can take out all the filler words with one click. And suddenly I sound smarter than I am. And I don't think that damages any of the authenticity or makes it any less real. It's just that like, oh, this is, it's going to be a little bit easier to look more professional without having to go through all kinds of crazy editing and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, that's true. It doesn't feel like all of a sudden you sound like a robot. You just. I feel like, yeah, you sound [00:22:00] smarter because you're not constantly looking for words or, or, yeah, saying Lou Bortone: them that. And some of it's getting like, it's a little bit weird because there's a feature in Descript where if I'm looking at the screen, it will put your eyes back up to where the camera is. Oh, I haven't Sarah: seen that. Lou Bortone: Ooh, that's kind of, you know, it's kind of interesting. It's a little creepy, but it works pretty well. But again, it's about striking that balance. Like I could do videos where I say, you know, you sort of insert the name, like you do one video, hello. So, you know, it's like, well, obviously that's, you know automated. So you don't want to do so much automation that it's not, you know real anymore. Sarah: Right. Yeah. I guess that's a question that you get often is like, well, where should your eyes be when you're doing either self recorded videos or chats like this one? For example, me right now, I'm looking at the camera. I'm not looking at you, which I always feel like, oh, what a Lou Bortone: shame. You got [00:23:00] to sort of train your eyes. I'm like, Oh, you know, my mom said you have to look people in the eye. Exactly. Great, but the camera, the camera's eye is up here, so I cheat because I have like a little extra monitor up where the camera is, but if I was looking at the screen, it would be, it would feel like I wasn't connecting with you and I wasn't being as authentic because I'm not, you want to try to, the camera is the the other person's eyes. So that's the tricky part. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. What I do is this, because I'm recording on zoom, so I just make the screen of zoom very small and just shove it right under the camera. Lou Bortone: I know. So those kind of tricks of just, you know, try to look at the camera try to have, you know, adequate lighting But again, it's, you know, it doesn't take much. I, I, I like to have a setup where I can just say, okay, my camera is set up, my background's okay, my lights work, and I want to just be able to go. I don't want to have to spend 20 minutes setting up a video every time I do a video. Sarah: Yeah, exactly. It becomes kind of like a nuisance if you're, it feels like, Oh, [00:24:00] I have to do all this setting up. What about what about in terms of the, the body placement? Because one thing I noticed is when I put the things on Tik TOK compared to everybody else, my face was like, Oh God, this is like, this is no Lou Bortone: good. Consider where the person's watching from, and a lot of people are watching on their phone, especially if it's a vertical video. So oftentimes if I'm doing a webinar and I'm sharing slides that are landscape, I realized, well, I can't put this on TikTok or Instagram Reels because it's going to squish it. But like, again, using software like Descript, we can take a video like this and put, you know, the people, Vertically so that it still works. So what I do see a lot, and it's funny cause I did another video about this, is it just, people don't have a very good sense of the spatial awareness. Like there'll be way down here, like, hello. And the trick that I, I heard that works is that, you know, think in terms of like, you don't want any more headroom than you [00:25:00] could fit a golf ball on the top of your head. So. You know, you don't want to be too close. You don't want to be too, too far away. Sarah: So what about here? Like Lou Bortone: it's kind of like, I think, you know, we were used to seeing that from news anchors and TV. It's usually like, you know, the, the typical shot is head and shoulders kind of shot, but again you know, if there are people doing videos who are yoga instructors or something like that, they got to go way back and be No, I think it's really just a matter of being aware of where you are in the camera. Oftentimes we'll see on zoom maybe somebody's on a laptop and they're looking up and you're looking up their nose. It's like, that's no fun. You know, just try to. Have a straight on you know, and use the photography rule of thirds where your eyes should be on the top third of the line. And if you've got graphics, those should be on the lower third, which is why they call lower thirds. So it's just having a sort of a spatial awareness of where you are, what's going on on screen. Sarah: Right. Yeah. [00:26:00] Yeah. I think a lot of it also comes back to confidence and just doing it a few times and not caring if it doesn't look good and just keep doing Lou Bortone: it, right? Yeah. So it's funny when we do, like we did the video for introverts thing a few years ago, but when we do when I do these challenges, I say, you know I do my first video in the car after I just came from the gym. So it's like, okay, this is the worst I'm going to look. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to set the bar really low so it can only get better. And you know, I'm in the car, the lighting's bad, I'm sweaty, but okay, I'm going to start there and then work my way towards better videos as I go. Sarah: Right. Yeah, that's a, that's a good way of putting it. And I remember those videos after kickboxing, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don't know if I would bear that, but yeah. . Lou Bortone: Well, and I think, you know women have a harder time because of the expectations. Like, oh, you know, my hair has to look good and I have to be wearing. Right, whatever. But I think people are less concerned [00:27:00] about that now than they used to be. Sarah: I think so too. And it's so refreshing. Lou Bortone: Yeah. Cause we just show up on zoom and it's like, look, you know I just came back from the gym or I'm, you know, I've been doing this, that so it's really more about, you really have to. Focus on the message and not so much the quality is important, but it's, it's less important than, than your message and you, and what you're Sarah: delivering. You know what that makes me think of is it's funny that we haven't kind of changed our headshots yet to being more human because sometimes you go on somebody's website and it's this beautiful girl. Like. Once in a lifetime that they look like that. And then you see their YouTube videos and you're like, Oh, they're actually human, Lou Bortone: right? And I, I did have photos when we were in Italy. I'm like, Oh, I want to have my pictures with really old buildings in the background and things like that. And then when people show up, they're like, Oh, you don't look like you look on, on [00:28:00] screen. So I used to do a really silly trick. Okay. Back in the Photoshop days is I would make my image actually a little wider so that I'd look heavier. And then when I showed up in person, people would say, Oh, you have you lost weight? So I was doing that reverse Photoshop, like, well, I want to look better in person. So I'm going to, but again, it's, it's, it is all about that authenticity and connection. And I talk about building loyalty through video, because again, it's really more about A relationship than about what camera you're using. Sarah: Yeah, it really feels like it's. I explained it in levels of intimacy, right? And so people sign up to your newsletter that they get your emails. That's the kind of the low level or before that it's even social media. Right. And then there's a higher level is newsletter and even higher letter that level Dell will be YouTube or, you know, any kind of video. And then probably [00:29:00] zoom calls where it's like in person zoom calls and then the actual in person meeting. But yeah. I do feel already, you know, we're seeing each other's facial expressions and that, yeah, that creates trust and loyalty. I Lou Bortone: totally agree. Yeah. And again, you know, even though, thank goodness we're past the pandemic and live events are coming back and conferences are back, there's still going to be that hybrid events, people working from home much more than they used to. I mean, my kids who are 25 they have never worked in an office. Everything they've done is, is on screen, on zoom, on Google meet, whatever it is. That's just the way they work now. Yeah, Sarah: yeah, yeah. No, it's crazy. Yeah, it really is. So let us talk a little bit to wrap up around the future. So we mentioned AI, we mentioned that, you know, Google is not really easy anymore to have your [00:30:00] blog posts featured. So what is, what do you see the future of video? How do you see it? Lou Bortone: I think it's, you know, obviously there's going to be a lot more volume because people are going to continue to flock to YouTube and watch YouTube shorts. I think we're going to see, you know, shorter bursts of videos, like. TikTok and Instagram reels are going to continue and it's a little harder to make the connection there because you're on for a shorter amount of time. But I think we're going to see the shorter videos, promoting podcasts and longer content where you really can connect because again, you're obviously going to make a better connection with somebody if you're seeing or hearing them for, you know, 15, 20 minutes, rather than. Forty five seconds and i think the other thing is that there may be a little bit of a not really a backlash but sort of an anti AI thing like okay i've seen the robotic you know synthetic version of blue but where's the real you know i'm gonna show up on facebook live and not be perfect but be real so i think you'll start [00:31:00] to see a little bit more of you know as much as we're going to be using AI that's still not going to you know literally replace the person and their message. Sarah: Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I'm, I'm all for AI, but exactly. It's still, in a way it makes the videos that we're doing even more special and more human. So, so maybe that's also a good. Lou Bortone: Yeah. So, yeah, because that's the, you know, it's almost like if you send out an email blast, it's not very personal. If you send out an, an AI video, it's great, but it's not. You know, it's personal or familiar or engaging. And even now that chat GPT is, is starting to put in I think it's called Sora where you can put in a prompt and chat GPT will create a video from nothing, which is great, but it's still not. You, I don't think so. What Sarah: does it do? It creates an avatar of you or just, Lou Bortone: you know, if you say create a video about a trip [00:32:00] to, to Boston mass, it's going to pull in footage from Boston and scenes and sites. And I think, you know, eventually if you record yourself, it'll be able to do sort of a facsimile of you, but it's still not going to be the real you. So, yeah, Sarah: some interesting, interesting things coming our way. That's for sure. Lou Bortone: Yeah, it's crazy. So I think there's still gonna be a place, a really important place for those videos. If I do a lot of video email, I just sort of, you know, rather than sending email, I do a video on loom and, and share something. And I think again, that's more personal. Yeah, it takes a little bit more time, but I think it also has a lot more impact because you feel like, oh, wow, this person's actually talking to me. It's not going to 1000 people. Yeah, I love Sarah: that. Yeah. I love those videos. I remember them from, from the, the trip in Tuscany. One thing we didn't talk about so much, and maybe it's something that we don't need to worry about is the whole algorithm thing, because obviously we're replacing the [00:33:00] Google algorithm by a YouTube algorithm. So how much are you paying attention and telling your clients to pay attention to the algorithm and making sure it gets, you know, right? Yeah, Lou Bortone: I mean, as long as I've, I've been on YouTube since the very beginning, and it's constantly changing and it's hard to keep up with. And I actually work with a YouTube coach just to try to stay on top of it. Can, and he keeps telling me the same thing and I've heard it over and over. And I think it's the best idea is make videos for humans, not algorithm. Don't try to game the system. Don't do keyword stuffing. I mean, I, I was talking to him about keywords and tags and he's like, just don't worry about it. It doesn't even matter anymore. Just make, you know, know who your audience is and, and try to connect with them and give them what they expect from you, what they want from you. And don't say, oh, you know, I'm going to make a knitting video because knitting is really hot. This is like, well, that's not what I do. So, so don't try to gain the system because you're not going to figure it [00:34:00] out and just make videos for an audience and for a person rather than for an algorithm. Man, Sarah: that's really refreshing because it feels like we're trying to figure out the algorithm and by the time you figured it out, it changed again, Lou Bortone: right? I know it's like I used to have coaches are like, okay, your title has to be 69 characters and your description has to be this and you know, it's still important to optimize your video the best you can, but at the end of the day, you know, spend more time making the video than trying to, you know, figure out just the exact keyword to include. Yeah. Sarah: Wow, I'm glad I asked you that early Lou Bortone: relief. It's like save, save you a lot of trouble in, in SEO research. And it's not completely, you know, it's not that important anymore. It's still counts for something, but like my YouTube coach is like, don't worry about the keywords for the tags and keywords, just put in different spellings of your name. So if somebody spells your name wrong, they'll still find you like, okay. [00:35:00] So so it's, you know, and, and the other thing is that with YouTube. It's shifted so much. I mean, maybe keywords were 80 percent of the people finding your video and now it's like 10%. So, and I even look at my analytics and I say, Oh, you know, only a few of these viewers came from search. The vast majority of them came from suggested videos of people finding the video because they, you know, they're seeking you out and they know, Oh yeah, I need video advice or I need to know how to do such and such. Okay. Sarah: Interesting. Yeah. So it just keeps, keeps on changing. So as long as you put your videos out there, you're, Lou Bortone: you're doing something right. Consistency is really, really important. I mean, YouTube likes consistency and YouTube likes watch time. So people always say, well, should I be doing video shorts or longer videos? And really a combination is best because you're sort of getting the best of both worlds. But YouTube, you know, the algorithm still does reward watch time. So if people start a video with you and then stick with it, [00:36:00] YouTube loves that because you're on the channel longer. So that's why I think podcasts are doing so well on YouTube because tend to stick with the, you know, the whole podcast rather than just watch two minutes of it. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: That's good to know. Well Last question. What would you say people who are just starting out and they're kind of, and maybe they're introverts, what's the first video that they should do? Lou Bortone: I think that the lowest hanging fruit is live video, Facebook Live, YouTube Live. I mean, you can go on and do a video. Maybe you just do it into a Facebook group. But I think live videos have a little bit less of an expectation of perfection. So you can show up, you can make a few mistakes. You can. Do your ums and ahs, whatever, and people are not going to be that concerned about it. So I think practicing with live video is a really good way to get your feet wet and sort of get, you know, ease your way into videos. And then after you've done a bunch of those and you realize like, Oh my God, I didn't die on [00:37:00] video. Then you can say, now I'm going to go record a video for my homepage and maybe I'll make that more professional. Sarah: That's, that's cool. And so in live video, does that mean that people can actually come on live? Right? Lou Bortone: Yeah. And you know, with like Facebook live, again, you can, you can say, I'm only going to go live to my private group. So maybe you feel a little bit safer starting there because you know, the folks in your group. Right. Oftentimes I'll do a video and then on the Facebook setting, I'll do only me. So like, okay, it's, it's live, but it's not, nobody's seeing it. And then maybe later on, I'll say, okay, that, that wasn't so bad. I'm going to change that view to public. So even though you recorded it ahead of time, you didn't make it live until afterwards. Yeah. Sarah: Love that. Very good. Well, thanks so much for sharing all your godfatherly knowledge. Thank you. It's been great. Tell people please where they can find you and, and I know you have a, a free tool for us as well. Lou Bortone: Everything's at [00:38:00] loubortone. com. And I also like people sometimes have trouble planning their video, what they're going to say. So I have a free video planner at loubortone. com forward slash. And that'll just help you sort of map out your video and, and know what you're going to say. And you don't have to script it. You don't have to have it all, you know, word for word. Sometimes it just helps to know, okay, I'm going to do my intro and I'm going to do these three points. And then I have a call to action. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I do. I think it's really helpful because. By the time you're two thirds in, you don't remember how you wanted to end it. And so it's kind of good. Lou Bortone: Yeah. A few bullet points. And then there's always, you know, editing. You can always go into Descript and use the AI to take out all your filler words and, and sound smarter. Sarah: That's great. I always ask one last question to all my guests and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? Lou Bortone: Wow. At my age, just waking up, but, but yeah, I mean, it's [00:39:00] here in the U. S. in February in New England, it's, it's chilly out, but you know, the sun's out and everybody's healthy and, you know, it's all good. Nice. Sarah: Wonderful. Well, let's hope it stays like that. It's really good to reconnect with you. Thanks so much for being on the show. Lou Bortone: Thank you. Appreciate it. Sarah: And that's a wrap for today. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Lou and his work at loubortone. com. Lou also has a free video planner for us that helps us plan the content of our video before we hit that recording button. So you'll find this at loubartone. com forward slash planner. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more about our community at [00:40:00] humane. marketing forward slash circle. And you'll find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 6. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak [00:41:00] soon.

In today's episode we have the pleasure to talk to George Kao, a seasoned entrepreneur and advocate of authentic business growth. George unveils his 111 Formula, a holistic approach designed to cultivate authenticity in entrepreneurship. We explore why George views business as a practice akin to athletics, emphasizing discipline and continual growth. Discover what truly constitutes an authentic business and gain invaluable insights into effective market research. George shares his philosophy on "gentle launches" and explores the intersection of AI with authentic business practices. Tune in for an inspiring conversation that empowers entrepreneurs to navigate their business journey authentically and ethically. In this real conversation, we talked about: Why business is a practice - and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes What an authentic business really is How to do market research and why George's approach to launches (he calls them gentle launches) George's shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business Our Collab Workshop on April 2nd (go to humane.marketing/workshop to sign up) and much more... --- full Ep 185 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded people. Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency, what works and what doesn't work in business. [00:01:00] Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and build trust. Vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at Humane Marketing slash circle, and if you prefer one-on-one, support from me. My Humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my. Heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a [00:02:00] sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion, and I'm speaking to George Kao about how to grow an authentic business. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking [00:03:00] about, but you can download your one page plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. George: marketing Sarah: forward slash one page, the number one and the word marketing. page and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these for your business. You know, authentic business and George Cow is a business mentor who infuses his teaching with a unique spiritual perspective since 2009, he has been helping people. Thousands of coaches, consultants, healers, and course creators on their path to creating sustainable and joyful businesses. George has published five books spanning the topics of authentic business, content marketing, joyful productivity, George: and spiritual growth. In this Sarah: real world. Conversation, real and authentic George: conversation may speak about Sarah: why business is a practice and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes, [00:04:00] what an authentic business really is, how to do market research, and why George's approach to launches. He calls them gentle launches. It also feels like a struggle. George, it's shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business. George: When do I Sarah: my thoughts George: as well on that topic. Authentic business Sarah: tries to, I guess, solve both of those issues by, by bringing, I'm just going to say it like personal George: development or spiritual growth into all the actions we take in our Sarah: business. So for example George: in the beginning, you know, when we're struggling to get clients and clarify our message and all that stuff that process itself doesn't have to. It doesn't have to feel like, Oh, I'm postponing the fulfillment of my life and my, my purpose, but like the actual work of [00:05:00] clarifying and putting systems together can be done from a deeper purpose of service. Service to our higher self, actually, and then, of course, service to humanity or the people that we most have compassion for and want to want to support and uplift through the products and services of our business. So, it's like, it's like. No matter what stage we're at, whether we're, we're, we're like the, the, the struggling beginner all of that can be actions taken in, you know, like I said, in, in service or in, in, in in alignment with our deeper, more, Purpose of life so that it's not like, I mean, I use this, but then, you know, sort of mundane example of if you're doing bookkeeping and you're not a bookkeeper, let's say you're not, it's not something that you'd naturally love to do. You can be like, ah, let me just get this out of the way. And, oh my God, so it's such a, such a, so tedious to have to like, look at these numbers or whatever, [00:06:00] or you can take a moment and say, this is my life also like, like, this is not. Yeah. Do this so that I can have, I can live life. No, no. This very moment is life. And therefore, how shall I live? It's like, Oh, okay. Bookkeeping. How can I come to it with a perspective of curiosity about the numbers and what the numbers suggest to the greater narrative of what my business developing into, how can I bring focus? You know, can, how can I practice focus in this moment? How can I practice gratitude that I can even Even have a business or even, like, think about this, you know, or even work on numbers. You know, some people can't even don't even have a computer, right? Like, like, how can I have the gratitude? And what does this moment mean for my personal development? Like, right now, like, and we don't have to spend an hour journaling before we do it. I mean, literally, most of us, even if we took. Two minutes [00:07:00] to just pause and say, what is the meaning of this moment? And the, the potential deeper potential at this moment, it changes. And it's like, what if our entire day could be like this? And that to me is really the core spirit of authentic business is at the beginner. For the beginners like that, and then later on you know, businesses like yours and mine, where things are humming along, it's like, rather than just go, I'm making money now and whatever, but it's like, how can I yet again bring my money. Courage to be, to be vulnerably exploring what my, my true purpose is in my business and, and pivot when I need to, but it's all like, I think of it as marketing, the act of marketing is a business finding is calling, you know, it's a business exploring with the market and with ourselves, what the calling of the businesses. And at the same time, the actions of a [00:08:00] business is also a stage. Okay. For our continued personal evolution. And then, so it's like, no matter what stage of the business, the authentic part of it is how much soul is being placed into this moment. And if there is, if there's soul in this moment, then I say, Hey, that's off, that's an authentic business. So Sarah: that's yeah, you and I need to have a conversation about my third book. I'm working on business. Like we're human because what you just is, yeah, it's very much aligned with I, I feel like you've talked a lot about spaciousness as well, right. And just, Yeah, just being a human as well as having a business and, and oftentimes we feel like as entrepreneurs, we, yeah, we need to struggle so much. And that means filling our calendars to the brim because we're just [00:09:00] not doing enough. But what you're saying is the opposite is just like, well, the business, and I think in your YouTube video, you share that the business is a practice and authentic business is a practice. And so it becomes. Part of your life, like it fits into your life. Yeah. And it's not like we need to fit our lives kind of around our business. The, you know, few minutes that are left each day. So it's the, it's the other way around. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing that I think oftentimes, and I'm curious what you, if you have the same feeling, authentic kind of became this buzzword a little bit. Yes. And it became this thing that we. Again, need to use our left brain in order to do authentic, like, you know, do authentic marketing. Well, here's the seven steps on how to do that. That's not what this is, George: right? Yeah. It's interesting. In 2023 Miriam [00:10:00] Webster, the dictionary company said the word of the year was authentic. Yeah. Yeah. So it really is literally a buzzword. And I feel like that the word of the year is often at least a year behind what the culture actually has been so authentic has been around for several years. I feel like as a, as a, as a very important or a very common kind of like bringing, bringing people back to, to what's meaningful for them. And anyway, but yeah, it's, I, I, I, so, you know, Appreciate this idea of practice, because to me, it's it almost doesn't matter what we're doing in our business. I mean, if, if, if we are, if we are living an authentic life, I mean, kind of kind of starting there. I mean, I mean, let's set aside authentic business. Like, the question is, are we living an authentic life? It's like, it's like, like, are we dedicated to living the most meaningful? And [00:11:00] highest life or deepest life, however you want to put it, like, if, if, yes, we are dedicated to that, why I don't see why, why the, I mean, those of us, those of you who are listening to this podcast, you're part of Sarah's audience, of course, you're dedicated to living the highest and the deepest life. It's like, what else is there, you know, what other possibility is there that actually draws us forward. And so if we are, in fact, have that passion and that dedication, then of course we have to bring that spirit into hopefully everything we do in our business. And the opposite of this is I often see come across spiritual teachers Well, they're spiritual teachers, so they must be dedicated to the highest and deepest and the best life possible. And yet I sign up for their email list or I follow them on social media or whatever. And their marketing is [00:12:00] just, it does. If there's like a, like, it's like a big. Disconnect between how they market themselves and how they sell their stuff to what they espouse as their principles and values. And I'm like, why, why is it that, why does business and marketing have to be. Different somehow, it's like separate thing. Yeah. It's like, it's like, oh, I, I, I'm, I'm very deep and, and, and real when I'm with my clients. And now let's do our marketing and using, you know, really manipulative funnels and really like scarcity type tactics. I'm like, what is going on here? It's like, why is there such a disconnect? It's kind of like the, yeah. You know, like the preacher who is so holy on, you know, on TV. And then, and then they have like some dark, you know, scandals and they're like, they're, they're, they're, they beat up their families and they cheat on their wives and it's like, it's like, it's this disconnect and, and and that's what I'm trying to say. Authentic means that you are authentic in, in everything that you do. [00:13:00] Yeah. Sarah: I think the issue is I, I kind of. Looked into that because of in the whole thing. Well, marketing like we're human selling like we're human business, like we're human. So what does it mean to be human? So I, I looked at Yuval Harari and one of the things that he shares is. One of the distinctions between us and other species is that we are myth makers. So we're really good at creating these new truths that we then all believe as humanity. And I think this online business world is one of those myths, right? And so everybody just started to believe. This is how business works online, or this is how online marketing works. And so even the, the really spiritual coaches, they're like, this is the mess that everybody is believing that myth. So I need to believe that [00:14:00] truth as well. And so that's why we need people like you are like, well, no, you don't have to believe this myth. There is another way, but I thought that was a fascinating concept. It's true. It's like, We decide this new thing, and then everybody follows, and that's what happened you know, 15 years ago. George: Really, really good observation. Yes it's there's, there's also this setting aside our inner authority. When it comes to, Oh, well, business, I'm not a business person. Well, I'm not a marketing expert. I'm a spiritual teacher or I'm a holistic healer, or I'm a life coach or that, that, that's, that's where I shine and I'll, I'll just, you know, business, they, they seem like they know what they're talking about with business and marketing, so I'll follow their systems that they're, they tell me the systems work, so let me just follow those systems. It feels off to me. It doesn't feel authentic to me, but it's going to get to an authentic end at the end when I finally can work with [00:15:00] clients. Right. And, and this is the old, you know, means to an end fallacy, which is, Oh, I just have to do this thing. That's soulless or that's not really me so that I can get to the part that is me. That is like, well, okay, particularly when it comes to your own business. Oh, you do it is going to be how you do end up doing just about everything else. So it's like the, the mindset you take on when you follow the mainstream business experts and the marketers ends up corrupting the mindset of your entire business and your audience feels that. I mean, this is why. People have been kind of looking at my stuff and following me for, for all these years. It's like they feel the difference. It's like there is a difference and they feel it. And I'm, and I feel it too, because I used to be, I used to be quite unhappy, deeply unhappy when I was following those systems without realizing that that's what I was doing was setting aside my own [00:16:00] authority to follow someone else's authority. Yeah, they said that, you know, even though it didn't feel right and finally, when I, when I get shut out all that stuff down and say, no, I don't have to do that. Let me try to try. It's what is could be an authentic way of doing business and marketing. It's like, oh, my gosh, I can really now settle deeply rest deeply and, and, and work deeply because now I see it as a practice. That's a soulful practice as well. Yeah, Sarah: that's wonderful. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, we're hosting a workshop together on April 2nd, right? And it's called the 111 Authentic Business Formula. So tell us a little bit what this formula is about and it has all these different numbers and practices. So tell us George: a little bit. Totally. Well I'm yeah, I'm glad to be able to tell you about it. And I do hope those who are listening to this will sign up for our, our joint workshop [00:17:00] because this is where I'm going to dive, dive deep into the one 11 formulas. Okay. So, so why one 11, first of all, the backstory is I've always found that to be some kind of magical number for me 11, one 11, 11, 11. Those have been at times, I feel like at times, particularly when I needed, you know, encouragement or I guess, quote, unquote, self help. Signs from the universe that that, you know, I, I deeply believe this to be true for myself and for all of us that we are in some mysterious, magical way, being deeply taken care of and being guided. With a still small voice within us, and sometimes the universe is kind to give us little signals of like, yeah, just remember you're not alone and it's going to be okay and not just okay. You are on a brilliant path. It seems windy, long and winding road sometimes, but [00:18:00] it is a necessary path toward your Highest good and your ability to serve the world in the, in the most powerful way, authentically powerful ways possible. So the 1 11 has been that kind of number for me. So when I was you know, I get asked by my clients and students all the time. It's like, all right, just give us. Give us, you know, tell us exactly what to do, you know, and I always, I always kind of fight against that because I'm like that is the opposite of authentic. If I tell you exactly, exactly what to do on a Tuesday at 10 a. m. you should do this and Thursday at 2 p. m. you should do that. I'm like, then you are following my authority again, rather than. Discovering your own inner authority, but still they're like, yes, yes, we get it. We get it. We get it, but we still need more clarity. Some structure, please on what to do. I'm like, okay, okay, let me, let me try to put together a structure. That has embedded in it the wisdom of all my successes and failures and having worked with [00:19:00] hundreds of clients and seeing their ups and downs and it seems what seen what's worked and what, what are the pitfalls? Let me try to put this structure together. So that's what I did. I said, okay, if I could guarantee you success in business, an authentic business success, this would be my best bet. And I always say, no one can guarantee you success, of course. And if anyone is saying, I'm going to guarantee you, just sign up for my program. You should run the other direction because they are either lying to you or they are. Going to become your, your authority instead of either going to supplant your in our authority. And that's not good for your sovereignty. And and so I said, okay, this formula has a lot of wiggle room in it. I'm going to give you numbers, but the numbers are more of a suggested shall I say prioritization of sorts, but you can, of course, take this formula and make it your own. So I'll [00:20:00] give you I'll give you the sort of the quick overview of the of the. But what the numbers are, and then, you know, we could talk as much as we have time here about it. And we'll go, we'll dive deep in the workshop itself. So the 111 is made up of 111 components to this so called guaranteed formula, or the best that I can do. And it has, I'll just give you some of the numbers here so you can get a sense of it. It has 40 for zero content experiments, because I. Believe deeply, not just believe, but I've seen in my own life and in my clients and students lives, the way we really discover our voice as well as our message. As well as that blessed intersection between imagine your passion and natural talents. Okay. So what you're, what you're deeply built for and led toward is one circle. And the other circle is what the world needs [00:21:00] and wants at this time. And that blessed intersection between what you're built for and what you're led towards and what the world is wanting at this time, which is the market. Okay. What they're happy to spend money on, what they're, what they love to engage with that blessed intersection of the two of them that I consider is our authentic business calling. And we discovered that through content experiments. Okay. Meaning we, whenever we. Try sharing a message or we have an idea, and we're going to just put it out there and see if people get it. Oftentimes, they might not get it. We might be ahead of our time. So we're not might not be saying it in a way that is understandable yet to this to this. Anyway, so 40 content experiments are, you know, and with the one 11 is, you know, Loosely meant to be a 1 year plan, so in the 1 year, you kind of do this and so it's like 40 content experiments over the course of a year. Not too many. It's like, maybe 1 a week, you know, something like that. If you work 40 to 40 weeks in a year, and then we've [00:22:00] got 10 stage 2 content pieces and we're going to dive deep into in the workshop what this means. But essentially, when out of the 40 content experiments. Which of those 10, I mean, as you go along, every time you do four of them for content experiments, you look back and go, which of those four had the most engagement? This is a clue, an important hint. Into what my intersection is between what I love and what the world wants. Ah, okay. So the stage two is basically taking one of those four and improving it and distributing even further. Okay. So that's what stage two content. So 10, 10 of those. During the year, definitely not too many, and that's at stage 2 is what actually builds your audience for the 40 content experiments is for you. I mean, you publish it for you, you don't you don't worry about the metrics and whatever you analyze it afterwards after 4 of them, but the stage [00:23:00] 2 is really what's going to grow your audience over time because it's the best of. Okay and then and then so now we're up to 50, right? 40 plus 10. So now we have 20. Market research conversations. Again, we're going to dive deep into the, in, in, during the workshop, 20 market research conversations over the course of a year, it seems like a lot, but in my early years of authentic business, I was doing more like 40 a year. Actually. I was, I was sometimes even doing more than 40 a year and a market research conversation. What is that? It's you being in actual conversation. With another human being that you're able to reach. Okay. So one of your fans, one of your friends, one of your colleagues, one of your clients, past clients, et cetera, where you are asking, where you are talking with them about what it is that they want, because, and particularly what they want as related to the [00:24:00] kind of stuff you offer. So that those conversations bring huge clarity to, Oh my God, I should be offering this. I should be creating content on that. I should be selling this. I didn't even know. And I like being able to talk with people like this, especially like on zoom or video, you know, or in person, but like where you can see their expressions is hugely helpful. So, so those 20 market research conversations sometimes turn into clients also, but we're really approaching them as out of genuine curiosity and care. Yeah. Okay. So, so that's that. And then the next 20, there's 20 collabs, collaborations. And again, my favorite. Yeah, exactly. Here's what we're doing, right? This counts as one of them. Right. And in the, in the early days when I was trying to build my audience and grow my business, I was doing, I was doing 40 collabs a year. So I'm only asking for 20 from, from all of you. And again, these are all, there's no hard and fast rules, right? These numbers are suggested and you can always change them. Take them as [00:25:00] whatever fits your rhythm, but a collaboration is well, Sarah, you excel at these reaching out and connecting with colleagues whom you're fascinated by their work. And they probably are interested in you there. If they respond to you, they're at least interested in connecting. There's kind of a bit of a heart connection. And I really go with heart connections. I mean, I, I interviewed lots of people. I've interviewed lots of people over the years. Only certain one of them, certain few of them like you have a hard connection where I'm like, I want to keep up with this person. And it's like, you grow. So, so these 20 collapse over a year are not like, oh, I'm dedicated to these 20 people for life. No experiments. You're just reaching out and, and doing maybe doing an interview, interviewing them for your channel. That's the easiest for me is I interviewed people for my channel. Just kind of sense into that connection. Is there something more for us to keep doing together? If not, that's okay. At least I, I did them a little favor by sharing them with my audience and my audience. I did them a [00:26:00] favor by saying, Hey, check out this person who could be really cool. You might want to follow them too. Having that abundance mindset, as you do, Sarah, is, well, it's just makes us happier, number one, and I think it's more true. T with a capital T of what reality is. Anyway, so that 20 collapse Sarah: and I love how it feeds into the authentic, authentic business. Yes, yes. Because I used to, you know, before the humane marketing and everything, I used to like be in these joint venture clubs and affiliate clubs and it was nothing like that. It was not a collaboration. It was masked as a collaboration. But it wasn't, so it wasn't that authentic heart centered kind of George: connection. So I'm so appreciate you bringing that up because, Oh my gosh, I've been there. Maybe some of the people who listened to this have been there or have been invited to these kinds of things where they, they, [00:27:00] they, they sound like they care and like want to collaborate with you and say, Oh, we would love to have you in our, in our summit. Would you like to be a, one of our guest speakers? And then you reply back and says, Oh, that sounds wonderful. Sure. Sure. Well, yeah. Okay. So to be this, you have to have a minimum of 5, 000 email lists. You have to send two emails to your list of 5, 000 to be qualified. I'm like, okay, so you're really using my list to grow your list. Got it. And then once I, once I show up in the, the, the few times I've said yes to this kind of thing, I show up and sometimes they say, just go and record 20 minutes, you know, just go and record 20 minutes of something and we'll add it to our summit. I'm like, Oh, you don't really care, do you? You just want me to do whatever. And then, like, and then, like, I never hear from them again until several years later. Oh, let's do another summit where you can build my list. It's like, oh, yeah. So, you know, collabs are really an experimentation of, are you us? I mean, could I say this? Are you a soulmate? And [00:28:00] I believe in business. We have many soulmates. Are you one of my soulmates? Let me, let me, let's play together for a bit and see if it anyway. So, so 20 collabs and then moving on to 10 gentle launches, 10 offers and gentle launches. 10 over the course of a year. Now, again, this sounds like a lot, but let me tell you what a gentle launches, a gentle launch is not. All right, get ready for a 90 day, you know, challenge where you're going to have like 90 videos, you're going to make it, you're going to have this funnel where after the challenge, they get like five webinars until they join your year long. No. That's yeah, some people do launches like that and it exhausts me just to even talk about it. Okay. What a gentle launch for me is, is ridiculous, ridiculously light. It's two posts, two messages. That's it. Again, we're going to dive deeper into what these two messages are, but essentially it's It's a humble [00:29:00] and curious offering to your audience, the people you're able to reach. Even if it's right now, it's your, you know, 200 Facebook friends or whatever. It's like you're a humble and gentle offering of, Hey, everyone. I'm really this is work that I love doing. And I love doing it for these kinds of people in this kind of way. And I'm just wondering if, if, if this resonates, With you, I have some spots right now. And so it's, it's a gentle offering. It's very authentic. It's very real. And then the second message is simply it's, it's, it's that same offering, but you could, you could talk about a a case study, or you could talk about the story of how you became so passionate about this area. Or you can, you can talk about the reminder of, Oh, this thing is starting or whatever. So it's like two messages only. And it is and that that's the same two messages are sent. Everywhere you're on social media and sent to your email list. If you have one, and I find this Sarah, it's so, it's so interesting. I've been doing this gentle offering stuff for at least four years, [00:30:00] five years, probably actually, maybe longer than that too. Every time I launch something, it's two messages only. And I find that over time, my audience has leaned in more and more and more. Because whereas usually when someone else launches something, we have to, like, as an audience member, we have to, like, almost hold them off because it's so coming on so strong. So many emails, so many posts. And it's like, okay, all right. All right. I just, oh, yeah. Another thing about their launch. Whereas because of my gentle launch rhythm, my audience, I find I started to lean in more and often people go, Oh my gosh. And it's like, Oh, I missed that. Oh, that's okay. I'm going to have another offer in a month or two. And then they, they lean in and I find that now even one message. Now I can tell if it's going to be a successful launch or a medium launch or time to pivot. And it's so helpful for me because I, I do a single light launch and like, Oh yeah, this is going to do really well. The second message, like usually the first message brings [00:31:00] a lot of the sales and then the second message brings some of the sales too. But it's like once your audience is leaning in, they pay attention whenever you offer something and if it's right for them, they're going to buy much more quickly than. The usual launches where it's like, Oh my God, it's full of anxiety. And like, Oh my God, this is going to work out. And anyway, so 10 gentle launches. Sarah: I like that. Yeah. And I'm, I'm really personally listening and paying attention because I, I think that's something I'm wanting to shift as well. So just. I, I felt like my launches were gentle, but I do still feel like, because I actually just had feedback that, you know, there was too many emails and so it's like, yeah, I, I, I get it. We're all, you know, having too much. And even though, you know, even though the content is gentle, it's still, George: it's still the rhythm itself. And the funny thing about it is that. Not only can the rhythm be gentle for our audience, it's also gentle for [00:32:00] our, for our own systems because we're, because, you know, writing two messages as opposed to writing 10 later, which one is easier for us. And, and really, I really had, and you're lucky that I can tell you from my experience, because I had to like, it was, it was ironically, a lot of courage to only send two emails to only make two posts, like in the, in the early days. I'm like, I'm let's see what happens if I only do two of them, but it worked out so well over time. I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm preaching this to the whole world. Like, please try this, but it, it, it takes a bit of patience because your audience needs to get used to it. Right. Like two or three launches later, they're like, Oh my God, I got to lean in now. Well, the thing Sarah: is, I only do three launches because I only have three programs. So would you say maybe then three George: emails? So. Yeah. I mean, of course, now let me be clear. Yes. When we have a larger program, it does [00:33:00] warrant more messages. I agree. Because like when I launched my year long program I send, well, we're going to talk deeper about this in the, in the workshop. I call it my circles of enrollment, meaning there's the inner circle that I send to, and there's the middle circle that I sent to, and then there's the outer circle. Each one has two messages. So it ends up being six. Yeah. For my, for my yearlong program, I can't wait to talk more, but yeah, we'll talk, we'll talk deeper, but, but what I want to just wrap up here with gentle launches is I do encourage everyone listening to consider. Experimenting with more offers, lighter offers, which again, we will dive to more deep, but let me, let me finish the one 11 formula. Okay. So there's two more elements. Okay. There's, there's, if, if you've been taking notes and counting the numbers, now we're down to 11 elements left, 11 components left. Okay. So out of these 11 components, there's just two, two pieces. There's two categories. There's six [00:34:00] joyful productivity practices integrated. Okay, so 6 joyful productivity practices integrated over the course of a year is certainly quite spacious, but it's also very rational. So for those who haven't heard of joyful productivity, it's basically my framework for how to manage yourself in business. So this is everything from how to manage your time to your how to manage your energy. For your attitude to energy and physical, mental, emotional, how to manage the flow of information, all this information coming in through your email, social media, and also the information going out. So how to manage all that. Within your computer. So I have a course called joyful productivity that goes into 24 of these practices that from my perspective, and that's actually when I polled my audience on which of my courses I have, I now have 24 courses, actually 24 separate courses, only, but which of my 24 [00:35:00] courses do you love the most? The winner was joyful productivity. So anyway, so, so I have 24 practices in that course, and I'm only asking for six of them to be integrated per year. So essentially when you take that. Of course, it's like a four year program, so six times four, that's right for your program. So so, so six of them in a year means every two months you're focusing on one of the Georgia productivity practices and that's great because according to research, so called the average time it takes for, for someone to develop a new habit is two months, 67 days, basically, and approximately two months. So anyway, so those are six Practices of self management integrated, uplifted optimized, you know, kind of like upgrading your, your own way of managing this. Because I know I want to take one more moment to say this. Like I, a lot of people don't realize. I think being a solopreneur, being a successful one is more like being an athlete than, than [00:36:00] a hobby, hobby artist. And I think unfortunately that's how a lot of people authentic solopreneurs, solopreneurs I call them. That's how they take it. Oh yeah, it's kind of like my hobby. It's kind of like my art. Oh, I play on, and of course I play too. I play a lot, you know, the experimentations. The way I recommend everyone think of it, it's more like you're training for a marathon. It's really more like that. Which means you've got to be really organized if you want this thing to work and if you want to succeed and have a lot of good work life play balance, you've got to like go. I'm serious about my training regimen. If I'm going to run a marathon, I'm going to be serious about my training regimen, which means when am I going to get up? You know, what am I going to be eating? Right? I mean, for marathon, there's certain things. And then, you And how much am I going to train? How am I going to rest? Right? What's my rhythm of, of exercise versus rest. And, and what, what can I eat and what shouldn't I eat and all that stuff. Business is [00:37:00] kind of like that. I mean, for those of us who have been around for years, I've been around since 2009, most of the people who started with me are no longer doing their business. I think it's largely because they didn't treat their business like it, what I call a joyful productivity athlete. So anyway, so that's why it's really important. And then the final category, one 11. Is 5 client case studies and over the course of a year, I don't think that's too much. That's less than 1 every 2 months. And the client case study again will dive more deeply into this is simply this is simply. Before they came to work with me, this is what they were going through. This is what they came to me for during our work together. These are the elements of our work. They loved the most. That they found most helpful and then after our work now, their life has changed in this way. Their business has changed. Their relationship has changed. Their health has changed in this way or that way, whatever this we work with people on. So these case studies don't have to be like, Oh, my God, I, [00:38:00] you know, they were, they were broke and now they're making a million dollars an hour. Or, Oh, my God, they were on stage for cancer and now they're the picture of health. It doesn't have to be that dramatic, but, but what it does do is help us to see the journey of our clients and what really works well for our, our ideal clients. And it didn't really case studies are more or less for us. But of course, the piece of the study can be put out as marketing and very inspirational as well. So I Sarah: find. Thank you. Case study is so much more beneficial than, than testimonials, right? Because they're more authentic. That's the reason because you can actually follow the journey where the testimonials, it's just kind of like, it was amazing. And I made six figures, you know, like oftentimes they don't feel authentic. George: Yeah. And, and it's like, if you take on the case study mindset. It kind of even changes how you work with clients. 'cause you're now, you're now being more aware of the, the, their journey and you're really [00:39:00] curious how their journey is gonna turn out. So then you, you work with them in that kind of way. It's like, oh, let's, oh my gosh, you, you, you, you know, there's a pitfall here. Okay, let's, let's work with a pitfall. And seeing them as seeing the hero's journey throughout the whole thing. really amazing. I love that. So, so if you add those all together, you might have to listen to this again. Yeah. So you add them all together. Should add up to 111 and and, and yes, in our workshop, I can't wait to dive into the nuances of these different things. In fact, I, I'm, I'm hoping that those who attend the workshop will listen to this 1st, so that I will send Sarah: it out to, I don't have to, I George: don't have to get the overview again, but we can directly into, okay, what do I mean by content experiment? What exactly are the market research questions? What are the, what are, you know, Six of the most important joyful productivity practices, whatever we can, we can dive into the nuances and the details, but I didn't want to overwhelm everyone who's just actually listening to a podcast episode here about these things. So, yeah, Sarah: that's wonderful. [00:40:00] I'll use it as prep work. George: Yes. Yes. Sarah: Yes. Yes. To listen to it. Yeah, no, it is really fascinating. And I can't wait to dive in. Definitely the, the launches where I was like, Mm, 10 launches, you know, just the, I just a word. I'm very fond of words, certain words and others not right. And it's just a word launch kind George: of does like, I need to, I need to probably wording has always been one of my weaknesses. It's, it's, it's ironic because I'm a marketing person, but despite my weakness for wording, I've made a very successful business. So I'm open to anyone. So I Sarah: like the fact that you call it gentle, right? That definitely George: explains it. Or a light launch, sometimes I call it. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. So, so yeah, I'm, I'm very excited to, to learn more about that. And, and yeah, definitely gonna have your voice in the back of my head with the two messages. So, so thank you for that. [00:41:00] Yeah. I have one more question as we wrap this up, because it also feeds into the authentic and it's kind of timely. I know that just like me, you really like tech, you like AI as well. And so for a lot of people, that's kind of like an oxymoron. How could you like say authentic business, authentic marketing, and also like AI and chat sheet BT. So yeah. And then that's what's your answer? I love George: I love this question so much. Oh, my gosh. I have I've definitely made several videos about this on my YouTube channel, but I'll give it. I'll give an overview summary of things. So, 1st of all. The resistance against AI is reasonable. Okay. It's reasonable because, you know, they said it was going to take a lot of jobs and it has begun, it really is taking over a lot of human work and it's only going [00:42:00] to get worse. I, and the reason why I put a question mark on worse is because we can also see it as getting way better. So let me explain what AI does. Is it's able to speed up 10 times 100 times the work that and become tedious and automatable. Okay. For example when you are brainstorming ideas. Brainstorming examples and metaphors, analogies for something you're trying to teach or trying to explain, you can, of course, sit there and go, All right. All right. And for an hour, right? And you can brainstorm. I don't know how fast you are brainstorming. Maybe you could brainstorm 5 things in an hour or 2 things or 50 things, depending if someone is really, really good at idea generation. With chat, GPT or Google Gemini or any of the AI chat bot tools. Now you can, instead of brainstorming, maybe you were really slow before. I I'm pretty slow at [00:43:00] brainstorming. I mean, maybe I'll brainstorm like five things in an hour. Now I can brainstorm those five things in 15 minutes. With the help of chat, you PT. Now I think of, I think of AI as a smart intern intern, not, not you know, not on par with us. I don't think it. Okay. I don't think it will ever be on par with humans in terms of the integration of intuition, body hormones light lived by definition that cannot be, it doesn't have the lived experience of a human. So, but what it does is it gives us the average. I mean, as you use Google Gemini, chat, GBT, whatever, and you go into your field, you talk to it about your field, you'll see, oh, it's very average. I mean, The responses, well, by, by definition, it took all the blog posts from your field and averaged it out to say, well, this is basically what your field says, but it doesn't have the nuances that's unique to [00:44:00] you. And to me about our own fields, because when I talk to you about authentic business or about business, like your answers, like, give me a marketing plan about this. I'm like, oh my God, the marketing plan is so generic. I can't even stand it. This is not what I would give a client. But when I say help me brainstorm three different analogies to talk about this. And an instant within a minute, three analogies come up. I'm like, okay, I kind of like the first analogy, maybe go more in that direction. I definitely don't like the second one. The third one's kind of interesting. I like this part about it. And I work with it like an intern and it can helps me to refine. And I'm like, well, what about this? Have you thought of this? And it's like, well, I oftentimes talk to these. Yeah. I'm like, what about this? Have you thought of it? Like, no, that's a great idea to like, well, it's because it doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't have the nuance that humans do. And so I don't, I never, so this is maybe the short answer to your question. I never use AI to do the actual writing. Or to do the actual, certainly not video, but certainly definitely not writing. I don't use it for writing George. What do you [00:45:00] mean? I use AI more than most people. I use it for brainstorming and for checking things and for as a thinking partner. But then I always look at it like, Oh, you're an intern. I know you, you're not that good yet. I mean, you're fast. You're very, you're very fast at giving average answers, but I'm going to take what you give me. I'm going to just up level it to the George cow or deepen it to the George cow way. So I really recommend it for that. As, as long as we see it as a smart intern thinking partner, I think we can get things done a lot faster. I've, I've, I, it has really sped up a lot of my work so that therefore we can do higher work. We can do higher Sarah: work or be more human. That's what I say as well. It helps us create more spaciousness to have a connection call or go out in nature or, you know, that's, that's the thing that a lot of these chat GPT prompts and things like that. It's, it's all about, well, create [00:46:00] more content, right? You do more. It's not about doing more, it's about being more productive, George: but gaining time, actually. It's gaining time and, and, and Google has, has just come out with a press release just as a few days ago. Okay. Basically saying this, we are now going hard on the Google search engine of getting rid of AI content. Not getting rid of it, but like we know, obviously Google is AI, very deep into AI. We know what's AI content and we're going to downgrade your website if you have a lot of it. That's what they've just came out with. So, so in other words, the more we get into AI, the AI is fortunately or unfortunately, it's not going away. It's only get more intensified built into every product now, right? Gmail now has AI and everything has AI. Now it's going to get even more embedded. The more that happens, the more there's room for authentic humanity in content and [00:47:00] offers and connections. Meaning like. AI is never going to get right the way that we are quirks the way that we pause on video because it's very natural. Yes, they'll get, please have 17 percent pauses for this video bot, but it's always going to feel off. It'll be Sarah: weird. It'll feel weird. Yeah, very strange. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love that. I knew that there would be alignment and it sounds like, yeah, you're using it for similar things. I, I also love, like, for example on LinkedIn posts where I want to do a list of emojis, you know, instead of the bullet points have emojis. It used to take me hours to look up a couple of emojis, give it the content and say, give me the emojis. And George: yeah, I asked AI, I have, of course, I know all the emojis. You can keep, keep, keep having a conversation. Give me more unique emojis. Well, what about this? What about that? And like, [00:48:00] I just look, look at it as a extended, Search engine. That's all it is. Like I help it solve problems. I figure trying to research things like those are, it's really fast at that. So let it do it, you know, Sarah: wonderful. Great. Well, wow. I can't wait for more of you, more of your. Content and more of the one 11 formula. So please everyone have a look at the workshop. It's under humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and it takes place on April 2nd. And we'd love to see you there. So can't wait for that, George, so much gratitude for you. Where can people find you if they can't make it to the podcast? Yeah. Oh the workshop. George: Tell anything is you can. Actually, this, this will be a fun exercise. Go to AI chat bot, chat GPT, Google Gemini being being chat and ask, tell me about George cow, authentic business coach. And then let it no, really. It's like, [00:49:00] okay, given what you know about George authentic business coach, what might he say? About this question that I have, I really welcome it and I'm actively, I'm like, well, it's going to take my job anyway. So I might as well actively partner with it to help me take my job so I can do, I can do more better work than this. Sarah: Have you experimented with the, with a chatbot? Bought George: I, I have, I have a custom experiment. I have a custom GPT Okay. Called the Authentic Business Coach. So those of you who have a chat, GPT subscription pro subscription or plus subscription, can actually find the authentic business coach Chat custom GPT, which are trained on all books. Oh, wonderful. My, I'll look that up. They're trained on all my books and it tries to sound like me, but of course, , it's, I, I talk with him myself. I'm like, yeah, you, you, you got it. Like. 60 percent right, what I might say, but it's, it's okay. It's better than nothing. Sarah: It's fun. Yeah. It's just fun to experiment with. Wonderful. Yeah. So go to chat GPT and look for George cow there. And otherwise you'll also find [00:50:00] them on on YouTube wherever, George: wherever, wherever, wherever books are sold and that Sarah: too. Yeah. You have so many wonderful. Well, thank you so much, George. And we'll see each other on George: April 2nd. Thank you. Thanks, Sarah. Thank you so much. Thank you. Sarah: Take care. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and took notes about all the different numbers that make up the 1 1 1 formula. You can find out more about George and his work at georgecow. com and also look up at his YouTube channel, for example, or do what he suggested. And go to chat PT and type in George Kao. You'll also find his curated selection of articles about authentic marketing at George Kao as KAO. By the way, ka and dot com slash authentic dash marketing. And please do join us for the 90 minute workshop [00:51:00] on April 2nd, where we go in depth into these topics. All the details can be found at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. If you're part of our community, the humane marketing circle, you can join us for free and you get the recording as well. And if you're not part of the community yet, well, this is a good reason to join us. But otherwise it's donation based. The suggested price is 27, but there's also a pay when you can option 15. To become a member of the humane marketingforward. com. a marketing circle. You can go to humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 5. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as make two books, marketing like a human and selling George: like a human. so much for listening and being a [00:52:00] part of a generation of marketer's friends. For yourself. Sarah: We are changing history for America.

In today's episode, we delve into "Pivoting for Good". We discuss the impact of purpose-driven pivots, explore non-traditional success metrics, and offer practical steps for entrepreneurs considering meaningful changes. This conversation aims to inspire and guide solopreneurs towards more humane, ethical, and sustainable business practices. Join us as we uncover how pivoting can be a powerful force for good. In this conversation, we talked about: Her recent Pivoting Summit and what inspired her to share these experiences from pivoters ‘Pivoting for Good', a significant conversation among pivoters The trend to wanting to measure success using non-traditional metrics that go beyond mere financial gains Practical steps for entrepreneurs who are considering a pivot and much more... --- Intro with music NEW 2022: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing. Caroline intro: Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of pivoting. It's not an official P of the seven Ps of humane marketing. But that's the topic today. And I guess Pivoting is kind of a combination of all the seven P's of Humane Marketing. As always, if you're a regular here, you already know the seven P's of Humane Marketing. But if you're new, this is your first time [00:03:00] here, a big warm welcome. You can download your one page marketing plan with the seven piece of humane marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not. Prescriptive, but it's reflective. So today I invited my colleague, Caroline Woods, to talk to us about pivots because she just recently hosted a summit slash event called the Pivot Narratives, where she featured many different pivotal stories from fellow entrepreneurs, including mine. So I thought I'd invite her for a conversation about pivoting for good. Caroline is an introvert who supports other introverts to redesign their businesses so that their business allows them to thrive, [00:04:00] rather than just survive. Ditching the idea that they have to pretend to be an extrovert to get ahead. Caroline is a corporate escapee, having spent 20 years working as a chartered accountant, working for large businesses and not for profits. She has wound her way around the world, working in Australia, her home country, the UK, Namibia, and Laos. In today's episode and conversation, we talked about her recent Pivoting Summit and what inspired her to share these experiences from Pivoters. The concept of pivoting for good, a significant conversation among the pivoters that participated the trend to wanting to measure success using non traditional metrics that go beyond mere financial gains, practical steps for entrepreneurs who are considering a pivot. And much more before we dive in, allow me one last plug for the Marketing Like We're [00:05:00] Human program that starts on March 14th and is actually a great fit for pivoters. Okay, I realized I said one last time already on the last episode. So sorry about the super last plug. So Marketing Like We're Human, aka The Client Resonator is my flagship program that I've been running since 2019. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you already know the seven P's of humane marketing, and that's exactly what we're working through in the program. So, passion, personal power, people, product, pricing, promotion and partnership. That's the framework that we follow. And besides in depth videos and workbooks, we also have a weekly call to deepen the content of these topics. Even though I say it's about the Marketing Foundation, I often have participants who are in Not new to business. So they are ready for a pivot. They might have been in business [00:06:00] already for a while and just kind of going through the motions or not feeling happy with their business anymore or just realizing it's not what they're meant to do. It's not their calling. And so oftentimes I have participants like that in the group. That want to create their life's work and from the ground up, do it right this time so that when they do go out and market, it comes from within. So that's what we do in the program. We go deep and we create the foundation once and for all so that you can find out which marketing activities will flow for you. It's part self development, part very pragmatic business best practices. It's part lift. Part right brain, part mind and heart. And if you go to humane. marketing forward slash program, there's a great number of testimonials and even whole case studies with videos from past participants. So go [00:07:00] and check out the details at humane. marketing forward slash program. And yes, we are starting on March 14th. 2024, so quickly get in touch with me so we can book a chat. You can either book a call directly on the program page or connect with me via LinkedIn or send me an email at sarah at humane dot marketing. I can't wait to hear from you. All right, let's dive into the conversation with Caroline about pivoting for good. video1858641342: Hi, Caroline. So good to see you again. We haven't seen each other for a long time, so it's good to hang out on Zoom and obviously then put it on the podcast and on YouTube. But for us, it's just the two of us, right? Which is fun. Good to have you. I'm happy to have a conversation with you again. Yeah, exactly. Wonderful. And it's always fun to see when talking to people on the other side, right? You're [00:08:00] in a t shirt and I'm in like my poncho. It's quite warm here tonight. Yeah. Good tell. Wonderful. So we, we decided to talk about pivoting for good because you just hosted a summit around pivoting where you were so kind to invite me and share my story of the pivot to humane marketing away from my LinkedIn consulting business and then to gentle marketing and then to humane marketing. And so as I was kind of reading through the other stories of Pivoters I was thinking, Hey, that actually makes a really good subject for a conversation on the podcast. And, you know, you make the perfect guest for it. So you are we go way back. Yeah, we go way back. We have had prior exchanges. Mainly related to being introverts and, and being [00:09:00] in business and, and marketing and all of that. So it's good to catch up with you. So let's go to that summit and maybe kind of lens of pivoting for good. What stands out to you now that the summit is over, do you feel like there was a bit of a theme related to. Pivoting for good and maybe I can define to listeners. What I mean by that. Yeah, it's kind of like coming from the traditional business model of like, just making money, paying the bills individualistic to a more. Out there a model, meaning like, it's not just me for my business, but I'm actually wanting to contribute to change. So that's what I think for this podcast we define as pivoting for good. So, did you notice kind of a theme in your summit from people's stories? It was definitely, I [00:10:00] think, a theme of pivoting for good. And there's some people like yourself who haven't really defined how they're going to, how they want to make the world a better place. You know, that sort of idea of improving things for the communities they're in. So I think there are a couple of people like that, like Louise, who's from Leap32 Marketing, very much wants to work with companies who have a purpose led. I think she's probably one of the most obvious ones. I think the other thing that really stood out for me is people pivoting, pivoting to pivot businesses that really reflected their values and so trying to show that their values coming through in their work and hopefully then influencing the world that they're sort of operating in to try and make, to try and ensure their values are actually being. Reflected in those communities that they're working with, I guess is how I would [00:11:00] put it. So not always having a really clearly defined, this is how I help my community. But very, almost all of them had a very clear, I want my values to be reflected in my work. And so through values, hopefully I can make the place, you know, just a little bit better than what, what it was like when I, you know, when they started in business. Yeah, that's interesting because that's kind of the, I did a video recently on the individual in the community, because that's kind of if you look at astrology, that's kind of the theme of the time of Aquarius where it's very, Much individualistic and saying, I want to do what I want to do and my values and all of that. Then it's also a time of, well, how do I, given how, who I am fit into the community. And it feels like. Maybe that's the first step you know, really expressing our values and not just being kind of defined, but [00:12:00] by our clients, because let's say 10 years ago, it was all about, you know, adapting to the clients, right? The client was the king and all that. And now it's like, well, what if, if I start with myself first and put my values first? So. It seems like there's a journey of saying, okay, I want to do a business how I want to do it. And then the next step will be like, well, how does that contribute to community at large to humanity at large? Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing that came through was sort of, it still ties into that individualistic idea, but then taking it further. is there are people who, you know, like myself, where I want to see introverts do well, but there are also quite a few people who took part who want to help other HSP people thrive. So very much seeing community in that sort of sense, that they want people in that particular [00:13:00] community of HSP to thrive. Or for me, you know, I've said introverts, so there's also that It's sort of individualistic because it's who you are and wanting others who are like you to thrive. But in a way also building community in those similar people, right? Yes. Yeah. And groups that don't do well or haven't, haven't been valued perhaps as much as society. Yeah. I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of neurodivergent people as well, that's kind of, you know, a new thing in the business world that there is movements of neurodivergent people. And so I think that's another, yeah, you're right. It's kind of like, okay, we finally can say how we're wired and who we are and let's find. Common who are, who are just like us and create communities with those people. Yeah. You're very right. Yeah. And I [00:14:00] think, I think helping them as well to be seen and valued by society. So thinking about those HSP people often have been HSP people, highly sensitive people have often been seen as too sensitive. And now perhaps we're seeing, hopefully starting to see their sensitivity as. Something that really adds to the world that we're in and so how do we help them get, you know, get themselves out into the world and share their, their sensitivity better. I think it's. It's an interesting, interesting idea of community. And I really believe that helps in this paradigm shift that kind of goes from a very, very masculine energy to a more feminine energy and HSPs kind of have this gift to bring out the feminine energy, right? So it belongs to that shift as well. Yeah. Maybe can you pick like one or two stories [00:15:00] that really. Stood out to you and that you would love to share here. I think probably two. So one of the ones I thought was really interesting is Nadia Finas, who went from being a business coach and she now helps people who are shy like herself and have a really, you know, she has a, quite a, her voice is quite high pitched, I guess you'd say, and I think, you know, she's in the past, she's really struggled with her voice and she struggled with shyness. And so I think that's been really interesting. It's a really interesting story for me of moving away from the online business world on business coaching, which I think she was getting very jaded about and then coming around this idea where she can help shy people instead and bringing a lot of her. You know, I can see with the work that she does online that she brings a lot of those skills that she got as a business coach [00:16:00] to then helping get her voice out about how shy people can be supported in the workplace. So I really liked her story, particularly I think you often see it going the other way of people moving from say a life coach to a business coach. And there's nothing wrong with that, but I think, yeah, that scene is a much more natural path going perhaps sort of in the other direction, I think was really interesting. Yeah. And then I really like Ruth Pound White's story that, you know, she's actually, she had a really successful copywriting business. And she gave that away to be a business coach and a soulful, you know, helping people with their, their sales and doing it in a soulful way. And I think that, again, is really interesting, I think, but for me, both of them, that whole giving up something that's earning you money, doing well, that society probably sees and values you doing, [00:17:00] moving into, you know, completely giving that up and doing something new. I think they're the two that. I think for me, it's the courage of giving up something successful to start again is really powerful. Yeah, yeah, it makes me laugh because I remember when I first put out the Marketing Like We're Human book and then was on these typical marketing podcasts and they would always ask me about Conversion rates. And, you know, does this actually work? Do we have proof that humane marketing works? And kind of my counter question is, was always like, well, the question is more like, does the traditional marketing still work for you? Can you still sleep at night? Right. Doing the things you're doing now. And so it's like, well, if you're, if it still works for you, then yeah. Why give it up? Right. But if you just know deep inside, well, this is actually not working for me anymore, then, then you need the courage to leave it behind and, and pivot to [00:18:00] something else. Yeah. I think that's really the thing about a pivot. Like, okay. Sometimes it might be a forced pivot. Which kind of was, you know, the story for me with the trademark issue moving away from gentle marketing. Okay. That was a forced pivot. I'm glad it happened now looking back. But then, yeah. So, so what would you say? Are, are, are there different reasons we just mentioned one or two, the forced one, and then the one where it's kind of like, well, something's not working for me. Is there another reason that you noticed why people are moving away from or pivoting to something else? Louise, who I mentioned before from Leap 32, I think she was probably, I think she's probably the only person in the whole project who pivoted because she thought there was more. [00:19:00] So I thought that was, hers was really interesting in that regard, in that it wasn't that she was particularly unhappy with in the role she was in, but she could see that there was more. And I think that's probably the other. The other reason is that they, you can see there are possibilities to get more out of your life and to get more out of your business. Yeah. And hopefully, and in her case, to give back more to community than what she was doing in her old job. Yeah. I think a lot of the others are forced. I mean, I would even say in some ways, You know, both of our pivots were forced in terms of feeling so uncomfortable with what we were doing. It was also almost our you know, when you stop doing your traditional marketing and I stopped doing Facebook ads, it was very much, you're almost forced because it doesn't feel right. Yeah. Because of ethical reasons, right? Yeah. Whereas some people are forced because, you know, [00:20:00] Celia, who shared her story, I mean, she probably could have kept going, but she had a co working space and obviously COVID hit and there was no co working. So it gave her an opportunity to really reassess what she was doing. So, you know, different types of force, I think. Mm hmm. Yeah. You mentioned about the, is there more this question I think for me in the LinkedIn, when I transitioned out of the LinkedIn consulting, I think that's what, what it was for me, like, is this all I'm ever going to do is, is it more? So it wasn't like more in terms of, can I make more money somewhere else? Yeah. It's like. In my life, is this my role or is there something else, something deeper? And I guess that's also what I'm hinting at towards, you know, the pivoting for good. I think a lot of people feel this calling right now for more. How can I [00:21:00] contribute to this shift right now? With my business, and isn't there a pivot that I should be making right now? So, yeah, I, I'd agree that it's probably those three is like, is there more? Another one is a forced pivot and, and the third one is more like, well, what can I let go of in something else? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that, that really resonates in terms of what I just said, you know, is there more? So. It's not usually money did it was that a common theme as well that most of the people didn't pivot because. You know, it's like, well, I want to make even more money. And that's the reason for the pivot. I guess the question is like, would people still measure success with just money or were people measuring success in another way? No, I don't think [00:22:00] anyone measured success through money or maybe one. Maybe Amber McHugh did. And hers was a forced pivot. So she had, she had a photography, Boudoir photography company, and again, COVID shut them down. And so they used that first year of the COVID to actually decide to really, really invest in their company and grow it significantly. After cover, but I think she was probably the only person who even, you know, thought, you know, had a money as a measure of her success for everyone else. It was much more about giving back to community or doing work that was more interesting to them. So that's all that individualistic side, but, you know, what. What work feels good to them to do. Right. And yeah, I think that would probably be the main two, actually, is that doing work [00:23:00] they enjoy and being able to give back were the two main measures of success that got mentioned in the project. Yeah. Kind of does in their piece as well. Right. It's just being happy in your, in your work rather than feeling like you're doing something that is not aligned. That's kind of the, yeah, the sense I got from most of the stories as well. And I think working with people who they were aligned with was another one. So having clients that are in alignment. Yeah, so I mean, I guess similar to you, finding people who do marketing, there's a few other people in the project that do marketing, and it was very much about finding ways of doing it ethically and working with people who want to do marketing in a way that Feels good, you know, isn't that that more aggressive masculine marketing that we see so often. So that definitely came through quite a [00:24:00] few people. Yeah. Another topic that comes to mind is because it's, it's 1 of my kind of like. Yeah, it's really important to me is the collaboration instead of competition. So, yeah, did you feel like there was also a bit of a pivot towards more, let's see how we can collaborate? As entrepreneurs, let's see how I can tap into, because most of these business owners, entrepreneurs already had existing experience. So was that a priority for people to pivot into kind of like, yeah, more community building or more collaboration with others? What, what did you see? No, I don't, I didn't actually see much of that, which was really interesting for me because. You know, over the past year as I've [00:25:00] been, you know, sort of wending my way through my own messy pivot, I think community and collaboration has really come up as a theme for me. Yeah. That's one of the reasons why I organized the Pivot Project, that I really, I like the, I love the idea of sharing a range of voices because I think we gain so much from hearing how different people are doing things and their thoughts on them, that it can help us to shape our own ideas. Cheers. Cheers. Around how we want to do our businesses, how we want to interact with the world, how we want to make it bigger and bigger and better, you know, bigger, not necessarily in a money sense, but bigger in terms of maybe bigger hearted but I don't it's really interesting. I don't think community came through. In the actual stories, you know, I certainly saw it as part of the pivot project that people really enjoyed that they, you know, I've had messages from people who took part that [00:26:00] one of the things that they've really got out of that is they've met some really fantastic new people who, you know, who that they were in the project with, and I, you know, that's been really exciting for me. So, Yeah. Yeah. Not so much in their own stories, but definitely as part of being in the project. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I, I know that, I only know that Andy Mort who was also featured, he has his own community and, and it's important to him and I do, I don't know if anybody else, yeah. Has that or it's important to them, but, but I'm curious about your own pivot. So, so tell us more about, you know, what's been going on for you, for you over the last year or so. I think for me, I've done a number of different things. I started off doing sort of Facebook ads and then [00:27:00] some tech VA work. And now really settling on, well, I wouldn't say settled. So the business strategy is definitely uses the best, it's the best use of my skills. I think bringing together my accounting, my planning skills, my problem solving. And then for me, I think over the past year, the real pivot has been around who I help. And I think for me, part of that has been, you know, I say I help introverts, but I've been realizing over the past year that that is. That's too big a group and that there are some other important things that fit into that group for me a big one. And probably because I've been spending too much time reading your stuff is ethical marketing. And that, you know, it's really important to me that the introverts I work with share that ethical marketing, humane marketing perspective. I don't want to work with people [00:28:00] who are only there for the money. And we all need money. I think money is wonderful, but there's something more to what they want to get from their business is part of that. And then certainly overthinking, I think, is another bit that I've struggled with. And I think that's where I also bring a set of skills into helping people who overthink with planning. But definitely the big one has been that ethical because I've seen, I've seen people who are introverts. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're ethical. I think it's really easy to, to label yourself. So I label myself as an introvert, and then they are, because I, I, you know, I want ethical marketing that all introverts are going to be into ethical marketing as well, which of course is completely not true. And I think it's getting that better sense of who I want to work with. And support that's been this really that last year, the pivot of the last year has been really trying to work out who that person is or who [00:29:00] those people are that I want to work with and support. Yeah, it's so interesting. I'm just thinking back to, yeah, my first podcast that was also, you know, interviewing introverts. And I think that's where you and I met for the first time. And it's true back then that was like a big thing. Oh my God, you're saying out loud that you're an introvert, right? And we thought, okay, all introverts think alike, and then, you know, obviously we noticed, oh, that's not true at all. And it really kind of confirms this, this idea that I say that to make your worldview, your niche, rather than just have a niche of introverts. Well, your worldview is, let's do things ethically. And then that. Becomes the niche within the introverts, right? So it's every introvert, but just the ones that align with your worldview. And I think it's an evolution, right? It's [00:30:00] just like, this is, this is becoming more and more important. And so it's, it's interesting to hear. And I noticed the same thing for me. I'm like, well, yeah, it used to be introverts. Definitely not true anymore, because I know a lot of introverts where I'm like. No, it's not, no, no resonance. And the reason is because we don't have the same worldview. It's really, I think for me, it's still introverts because I'm probably ambiverts. I think people who are really extroverted, I don't do as well with, you know, like my work style doesn't work as well with them. Sometimes I would never work with an extrovert, but yeah, I think my, my work, how I work. It's what attracts introverts, but it's the worldview that then drives the other bitch. So it's sort of bringing the, the, how I work with the, how I think together to make it a much more [00:31:00] aligned business for me. Right. I started to call my ideal clients, deep thinkers, because I feel like It doesn't matter whether they're introverted or extroverted, that's just how they recharge their battery. But if, if they are deep thinkers, thinking about things deeply, thinking about, you know, our current challenges. So not just thinking about themselves. That's to me is kind of the definition and, and oftentimes they are introverts, but not always. So, yeah, it's just, I've been thinking for me, the word I want to bring into my work. is that I really love is thoughtful because I really like the duality of the word that it's got that deep thinker part in it that they're thoughtful about their business and intentional. And I also really like the idea of thoughtful in terms of kindness and thinking about clients. So that's sort of, I think where I'm heading. Yeah. And I think that combines that. Can be an extrovert and be a deep [00:32:00] thinker. So, you know, probably does, I would work with extroverts who fit into that category, but then also that I do want to see a kinder world. And that's where the other part of that word comes from. I like that. Yeah. Very much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting how, how much power and resonance words have. Right. And obviously that's, that's a big thing in marketing and communication. Let's kind of wrap up and talk a little bit about, well, you know, if somebody is listening and they're like, Oh my God. Yeah. That's exactly what has been happening over the last year or so. Where would you say, where do you start? Where did you start? Because again, it can take a lot of courage to, you know, move into another direction or let something go that has been working well, or maybe it hasn't been working well, but it's the only thing you have. So [00:33:00] yeah. What were your first steps? And then a new direction. I think for me, I was, and I was the only one who talked about this on the project that for me, I just, I got so out of alignment with my business that I actually went back, went back to work and got a job. And so that I was financially secure. And for me, that's one of the most, I think that's one of the really important things in making a, I don't want to call it a courageous pivot, but in making a pivot that perhaps doesn't feel as accepted by family or whoever it is. You need to have that money piece. Yeah, sorted to be creative, like if you can't pay your bills, I think it's really difficult. You know, to tap, to be able to take that step, you know, if you're worried about money, then you're going to make unaligned decisions in the name of money. And I still do that today. I think I still take on clients that I, [00:34:00] I shouldn't because I think money still feeds into that. I'm getting better at saying no to people, but it's, yeah, so definitely for me it was money. And then really, I think my best advice is just to start journaling about what you wanted to actually look like. That it's amazing what happens when you start to get things down on paper, and then start to look for other people in that world. So, you know, for me, it was starting to find people like you, like Ruth Poundwhite, other people who are doing, you know, who have that world, similar worldview to I do, that I do, and looking at how they do their business and what they're sharing about their thoughts on how, how you can do business in a way that feels much better for you. And hopefully it's much better for your community. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought up the money piece. I think that is, I think it's actually a very courageous pivot because there is so much stigma around, you know, business owners going back to work. And I think that is the, [00:35:00] yeah, the best. I mean, most courageous thing you can do because you're right, you can't, you can't even think if you don't have that financial safety. So, so don't start planning in that scarcity mode because it's not, it's not going to work. So yeah, I've actually seen quite, I've seen quite a few bigger business names sharing that they've gone and taken jobs. This. So either they've, you know, they've become a fractional marketing officer for someone that that kind of role and I really, I really like that they're sharing that and hopefully taking what I hadn't seen that, but that's really, yeah, that's really nice to hear because it's true that and I think especially, you know, the big businesses, they, I think there has been a huge kind of shift in terms of, you know, You know, what works and what doesn't work and it's especially the big businesses with also with big [00:36:00] expenses, right? Well, things are not working anymore. Like they used to before the pandemic. So yeah, so I'm really hoping that message gets out that actually. It's okay to take a job if that's what you need to do. Yeah. Yeah, in this season. And there'll be another season where you come up with a fabulous business that you love rather than trying to, trying to make something that doesn't support you succeed. I think that's, I think you might as well have a job in that case. If you're doing a business that doesn't light you up, then you might as well have a job. It's probably a lot easier. You can shut off at the, you know, the end of the day, hopefully. Yeah. It's the same thing that people who are wanting to start their first business. I always say, you know, build it while you still are on the job. So you have that financial security. Because otherwise it just, yeah, it really is scary. So, [00:37:00] and I think at the end of the marketing, like we're human book, I also mentioned that in terms of shifting to a different way of marketing. Because what happened for me, that was like a big drop, right? When you shift from the, the kind of the pushy marketing stuff and the pushy launches and all of that into a more humane approach to marketing. And right now I'm, you know, onboarding for the Marketing Like We're Human program, and I'm having conversations with people, right? So yeah, it takes a lot more time. And so there, there's going to be fewer people. So obviously there's a shift also in, in the income and you need to, you need to adjust for that. I mean, you can't just do it overnight. So, so kind of like. Yeah, maybe still keep doing what works well because of the money safety and then slowly shift out of it as you grow the other side. Yeah, and you can definitely, I think, you know, [00:38:00] with marketing, there's always an option to even just change it slightly. So you start to, you know, if you get rid of the particularly masculine element of your marketing, that particular aggressive. You can still do reasonably well while you're moving it to become more how you want it to be. Exactly, yeah, it's still a small shift, yeah. Yeah, but everything doesn't have to be a big, right, I'm not doing this anymore, I'm only doing this. There's definitely a gradual move that you can take if that's what's going to make you, going to be able to support you financially as you make the shift. Yeah, so good. Any, any other, I think the question is in terms of the future, where do you see the future of business, humane business? Do you feel like there is going to be more and more a move [00:39:00] towards this more aligned and, and ethical business? Do you see that in Australia, for example? I think I was but I think with the change in economic condition conditions that it's meant that people have right people feel less like it's a you said before it's a whole scarcity so because people are struggling to find clients. Your businesses are struggling. Things feel like they're scarce. That means that you, I think you tend to flip back into perhaps not so ethical marketing that has worked for you in the past. That, yeah, I think, I think the economic conditions might slow the movement down a little bit. That's for sure. Unfortunately, people will be less, less willing to take risks. Which, you know, you can completely understand. Yeah. Yeah. And it's [00:40:00] unfortunately always like that when things are back, well, people are scared and we, we go back to the things that work and that create immediate income. Right. Yeah. I think my hope is though that it will be. You know, we've taken two steps forward and we're only going one back. So, you know, we're always moving forward, even if it's at a much slower pace and perhaps we would ideally like, but it's still a move, you know, it's still better than it was. Yeah. Yeah. It's baby steps. Like you said. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's leave it on that positive tone. Thanks so much for, for sharing your insights. Caroline, that's, this has been delightful. I always ask one question and that is, what are you grateful for today and this week? At the moment I'm just really, so my two dogs have been quite sick, so I'm just very grateful that they're healthy this week and I'm enjoying their [00:41:00] company and then I can hear them making crying noises in the background as we talk because they're showing the back room and they want to come out. Yeah. I'll let you go back to them. I'm glad you, you saying that because I, I remember like, even like weeks back when we exchanged emails, you were saying that they were sick, so they must have been sick for a while now. Yeah. I mean, I've got terminal illnesses, but we hit a good, hit a good patch this week. So you have to take those wins. Hmm. Yeah. Wonderful to hang out. Thanks so much for being on the show today. Thanks for having me, Sarah. Caroline outro: Thanks so much for listening. I hope you got great value out of this episode, especially if you're considering your own pivot. You can find out more about Caroline and her work at quietlyextraordinary. com and Caroline has actually collated all the stories into an ebook, which you can now download at [00:42:00] quietlyextraordinary. com forward slash the dash. Pivot dash narratives. So go there and get inspired by all these pivot stories. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? Find out more at humane. marketing. com forward slash circle. We'd love to have you there. you're actually in the midst of your own pivot. Have a look at the Marketing Like We're Human program and see whether that might help you right now. Humane dot marketing forward slash program. You find the show notes of this episode at Humane dot marketing forward slash HM184. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the Humane Business Manifesto, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a [00:43:00] generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon!

In today's episode, we're diving into the world of pitching, but not as you know it. Forget the dread and discomfort often associated with pitching; with our guest, Rachel Allen, we're exploring how to turn it into a process of genuine connection and growth. You'll discover why pitching feels challenging, how to embrace it authentically, and strategies tailored for introverted solopreneurs. We're also covering practical tips on tracking your pitching efforts in a simple, effective way. If you've ever wondered how to pitch in a way that feels true to you and builds lasting relationships, this is the conversation for you. Join us as we learn to navigate the balance between effective pitching and maintaining our authenticity, all while growing our businesses in a humane way. In this episode, Rachel shares: Why we hate pitching and how to change that How to pitch authentically That pitching is actually about creating relationships Pitching strategies for introverts How and what to track when pitching, the simple way and much more…   --   Ep 183 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Rachel. Good to see you, and welcome to the humane marketing podcast. It's a delight to have you here. Rachel: Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I know we've wanted to talk about this for, what, over a year, I think. Um, so I'm excited that we're finally able to to make our schedules match. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. We've talked about different versions of this. And so, uh, in the end, we Decided to, um, talk about pitching, which I think is so relevant. And and in in a way, I think maybe it's because I kept Seeing was it you or someone else? You know, all kinds of people always post about the pitches that they get on LinkedIn and and how wrong they are and and all of that. So I'm like, yeah. That's a that's a good topic because We wanted to talk about pitching, but not just about how it's bad, but how you can actually do it in a way that [00:01:00] feels Ethically good and humane. So I think the the title of the podcast, I called it Humane Pitching. Ching. So let's dive into that and and how that would look like. Because I do think it's a it's a relevant business It's, um, tactic to understand, uh, how to work it. And and and so you specialize in that because you're really good with words. And and so you I approached you to come on to the come come on to the podcast, but then also come to the community and and, uh, do a collab workshop on the topic of humane pitching. So so why don't we start with kind of your experience with Pitching, but also with receiving pitches and how that changed, maybe how you approach them and how you teach them. Rachel: Yeah. Oh, I love that. So my experience with pitching is actually a little bit of a sandwich. Um, I before I [00:02:00] did Uh, online marketing. I was a journalist. And so my initial experience with pitching was actually writing and receiving press releases And, um, understanding how to pitch articles in that kind of environment. I never really thought I would use that again until I started doing online marketing and started getting all of these really Bad pitches where I was it would be people who clearly had, you know, even gotten the basics wrong. Like, they'd misspelled my name, or, um, Um, you could tell that they just copy pasted the same thing to a thousand people. Or my favorites would be the ones who, um, they would try to sell me something like drop shipping. And I'm like, I'm a marketer. What am I gonna drop ship? Like, I don't have merchandise. That's nice. So I would see these and be like, That's dumb. I should do something about it. And then, uh, last year, I finally was like, okay. It's time. Because I kept I saw this big wave of ones coming up again because of our the shifts that we're having in our, uh, demographic online. And so I was like, okay. I'm [00:03:00] gonna just Fix this once and for all and teach a podcast teach a teach a workshop called pitching for people who hate pitching. And, um, in preparation for that, I worked out a methodology for myself where I pitch 10 ish or so podcasts a week. It takes me about 30 minutes a day, the if that much. And most of all, it's just it feels like human to human conversations. Nobody walks out of this interaction feeling bad, Which was my priority for creating it. Sarah: Yeah. That's great. And I think pitching for podcasts is a great example. Right? That's As a podcast host, I probably receive sometimes, like, once 1 per day and and other, You know, other weeks is, like, at 2 per week. And and there's the occasional 1, like, once in a blue moon that I'm like, okay. Yeah. This feels authentic. But most of them, um, just yeah. Not even not even replying anymore, I have to [00:04:00] admit. I'm like, I just don't have the energy to reply or or teach them something. Um, actually, it's funny because I'm I'm gonna grab my phone. Just before We got on the on the call. I received 1. And that's kind of the new the new way, I think, of doing it, Uh, where they pretend that they're, like, your biggest fan, and they'll pick 1 episode that they really loved apparently, and they're They shared it with their team. So he's like, yeah. We shared it with it with my team. And then it's like, I'm wondering if you'd be open to, uh, being introduced to someone in I know in the SaaS space. I'm like, SaaS space. Like, I I okay. I have nothing against technology and, you know, All that, but had it has nothing to do with the other episodes that I'm I'm usually posting. So, clearly, that kind of, like, warming up, Bo, I know you so well. I'm your biggest fan. It just feels so fake. Right? And and [00:05:00] I have to admit that, like, for a mini Split of a second, I'm like, oh, that's nice because your ego goes it's like, oh, yeah. That that feels good. But then you're like, Wait a minute. No. This is not real. Right? And and so there it feels like there's these waves of Kind of pitching advice that goes out. Uh, I don't know who teaches them anymore. Like, it used to be the Neil Patel's, and Hopefully, they have evolved a little bit. So now it's other people who are teaching these strategies where it's just kinda like you can tell, oh, This is you know, this person has attended this program, and then it's all Mhmm. Feels the same. So I'm really curious what You are teaching how that is different, and you kind of hinted at is the relationship building. So tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah. Well, Rachel: like you said, the the main core focus when I teach this workshop, I tell people, here here's the way you [00:06:00] make this work for you. Your metric of success is not how many yeses you get. It's how many questions you ask. And so we immediately take the, like, the need for the other person to do something off the table. The And this is only on you. Are you going to get more guesses the more you do this? Of course, you will. But I like doing I like teaching it this way because it takes the pressure off of Every ask should have to be, like, so perfect because it has to be a yes. And it also takes the pressure off the other person because whatever they do, you've already won. You filled out another line on your spreadsheet. You've done a good job. So it makes it just psychologically easier on everybody involved. And then the way that we actually do this outreach Is we, um, reach out to people that are screened. So I teach you how to prescreen for people that are actually a good fit. I have an absolute no for this, like, Carpet bombing approach where you're just like, let me invite all my Facebook friends. You know? That's terrible. Nobody likes that. Right. And, uh, we have a structure Where we actually, um, we have the same pitching [00:07:00] templates that you sort of start from every time. So you don't have to, like, go through the blank page every single time. But you tweak it specifically for every single person that you reach out to. And, um, it includes, you know, like you said, some personal not like Creepy personal information, but it shows that you've actually, like, looked at their stuff. And, um, it puts the focus on what you can bring to them. So it's not reaching out to somebody and saying, hey. Give me something. It's saying, hey. I have something to offer. Do you think that might be a fit for us? Let's talk about that. Sarah: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, like, in in the marketing, like, we're human program, 1 1 of the bonuses is a podcast, Uh, 1 sheeter as a bonus. So so, um, I feel like when you come Paired. So the people who come to me with a pitch where I feel like, oh, they've they've actually listened to the or 1 specific episode. And then they propose something that is related [00:08:00] to that episode, and they give me bullet points Of what they could be speaking about, that to me is an easy yes. You know? Obviously, yes. I'm gonna go look at their website and see if it's a good fit, But it makes it easy for me as the host to Mhmm. To say yes to it rather than, like, this guy, would you be open to Like, no. Like, that is too much work for me to then figure out, well, who's he gonna suggest? Uh, all this research that I have to do, I'm like, no. Thank you. So, um, what what you're saying basically is, yes, come prepared. And so, obviously, if you have a 1 1, um, 1 sheeter for for for you as the as the guest or or I think even better, and and that's really what stands out, is is the Bullet points. Like, here's what I could be talking about. Right? That makes it really easy. So in terms of podcasting, That makes a lot of [00:09:00] sense because you you actually do come and offer something. Right? You offer your expertise to be a guest on the podcast. Let's talk about pitching in other, um, topics. Like, if I'm gonna come and pitch myself as as a provider of my services. How would you do it there? It becomes a bit more tricky. Right? Rachel: Yeah. So it's you can use the same structure. It's just a little bit different in terms of the information that you put into it. So I love the way you were you were framing this. It's like, basically, every pitch is is generosity. It's a gift. It's like, what can I give to you to start up this relationship? And it's the exact same thing with your services. So what I recommend people do is don't just reach out and say, like, hey. I'm a copywriter. Do you have work? No. Leave me alone. Like, of course not. But if you say, hey. I've been following your site. Like, I think your social media is amazing. I have noticed this 1 thing, And I'm curious if you do it, like, do you have a reason for it? [00:10:00] If not, like, here's what I might suggest, and I'm very careful to teach people. Like, you don't wanna, Like, bash on them. It's not like, wow. You could be so great if only your social media wasn't garbage. Let me fix that. It's terrible. No. Don't do that. Instead, it's like, hey. I think it became really cool if you tried this idea and just tell them. Like, let them tell them the strategy. Let them go try it if they want. And you say, If you wanna talk about that, I'm happy to talk about it. I love to help out. That's something that I do. And then you give a couple of little bullet points of, like, here's what that could look like. And, again, not it's not like fresh and read. It's not pushy. It's just like, hey. Here's what I do. Here's what that could look like. Do you wanna talk about that? And that's that. It's not like buy my thing or watch your business go up in flames. No 1 likes those Sarah: things. Yeah. Exactly. The the kind of negative, You know, voice and and and then I'm like, oh, but I have the solution, and let me let me help you. It's like, well, thank you very much, but no. Rachel: That's so condescending too. Right? Because you go [00:11:00] in assuming that they don't know what they're doing wrong or if they don't have a reason for doing it differently than what you might recommend. So it's to this, like, just with this commitment to see the other person as just as human as you are and assuming that they know they probably do know what they're doing. And you can come to the table as equals and maybe find a way forward that's better or different or get some different results. But it's not about you coming in and fixing somebody's problem because, Like, what's the first thing anybody does? Even if you know you're doing something wrong and if somebody comes up and they're like, I can help you. You're like, leave me alone. I'm Sarah: fine. I got it. Yeah. Yeah. No. It it's very human to be then self defensive and go, well, yeah, to who asked you for advice? Right? So so it really needs to be wrapped in this generosity, um, kind of package where it's like Yeah. Where where it doesn't feel like they they just wanna teach me something, um, and then charge me for it, but really, like, yeah. Hey. Let's Let's have a [00:12:00] look at how how this could help you and and then not in a way where probably also it means, like, you need to be okay to not charge for Yeah. This first interaction. Right? It really should be generous and therefore free. Rachel: Mhmm. And I think that's something that I I encourage people to think about when they're in the workshop. I'm like, you need to think about your capacity for this as well. Yeah. So I encourage people to always lead with generosity, to think of it as a relationship building exercise that happens to have the side effect of you get more work And you get, you know, different work and you get more of what you want. But the main focus always has to be on the person and the relationship. And it sounds counterintuitive, especially in the way that pitching is normally taught, which is, you know, hey, b, c, always be closing. Right. Yeah. But we're humans. You know? We're not doing multinational corporation deals. We're talking to people, usually 1 on 1 or 1 to a small team. It's so much more effective to have a [00:13:00] relationship with someone and be open to where that might lead because the kind of cool thing is If you come in with a preconceived idea of how your relationship is gonna end up, that may actually be, like, way smaller than what it could become. I've definitely had interactions with people where I was like, oh, I think maybe they'll end up becoming, like, a monthly blog client. And then it's like, just kidding. We're gonna do fractional CMO work. And if I had come in saying, like, I'm gonna do your blogs, k, then I would have never thought to expand this much more larger and rewarding work. Sarah: Right. Another thing you just brought up is this idea of relationship. Right? And what came up for me is, like, well, also Don't necessarily see this 1 on 1 relationship as kind of a 1 way road. And and, like, this is Gotta have to turn into a client. It could just stay at the relationship level and then bring clients through referral, for example. Right? Because [00:14:00] you have created something beautiful. You've given your work for free. The person doesn't need You right now or maybe they don't have the budget. But having created this awe moment then leads this person to refer you to Well, her friends. Right? And so it's like, if you go in and it's just like, oh, it needs to be a yes from this person, Then you're basically closing on all your other avenues, uh, as well. Rachel: Mhmm. Yeah. I think I'm so glad that you articulated that. I think Curiosity is such a big part of this as well. Just like, I don't know what's gonna happen when we sit down and talk. You know, we're people. Humans are inherently unpredictable. Who knows? But let's find out. Yeah. Sarah: Well, I happen to know that you are also an introvert. And so it feels like, uh, You know, that that pitching, I think, just a word pitching introverts probably go, oh, no. Thank you. Right? So how can This how can we [00:15:00] make this even better for introverts? Like, that it doesn't feel So dreadful. Um, what do you Rachel: suggest? So when I think, you know, Love the word pitching. I think of being at 1 of those horrible networking events where you have to go around and shake everybody's hand and be like, oh, we have not, you know, very high energy. Sounds terrible. That's exhausting. I hate those. I don't do them. So what I recommend instead with this, um, is, First of all, to just remove attachment to the outcome, which I know we've talked about. But I I think as an introvert, that makes it easier for me because then it's not like, Oh, I have to put my extrovert face on. It's more like, no. I'm here. This is how I talk. This is who I am. Let's see what happens. Another thing I remind people always is that you don't have to respond at the very second somebody responds to you. These conversations take a long time. You know, they're time it takes time to build. So I see people get very anxious about their response time when they send out is like, oh, but if they email me that grand [00:16:00] way, I have to email them back or else we're gonna lose it. And no. You know, don't if you don't want to. It's your business. No one's making you do anything. And another element of this is I always encourage people to write the way that they talk. A lot of times, Uh, as an introvert, it can be exhausting if I have to go and pretend to be more high energy or more whatever than I am. But if I just write an email that sounds exactly like me, it doesn't have to sound sales y. It doesn't have to do anything except say, hey. This is who I am. Do you want to talk? That's a lot lower of a bar than having to feel like I'm doing the email equivalent of, like, getting my hair done and putting on a full face of makeup out of Fancy clothes and then going to talk to people. So, um, oh, and the final thing is you don't have to do this all the time. Like, I do it, um, I do it usually daily because that's just easy for me, but there's also been times in my business where I've pitched very intensively for, like, 6 weeks and then ignored it for the rest of the year. So you can also gear it to [00:17:00] your own cycles of higher energy and when you have more resources to to be sort of more outward facing. Sarah: Yeah. I love that. Um, and I and I'll admit, I'm definitely not as regular as as you are. Um, I think I haven't Hitched any podcast in, like, probably more than a year. But I do know when the the third book comes out sometime down the road. That's what I'll do. Right? And then I get very focused, and I can you know, I I get into this pitching mode. And, yeah, it feels good. It feels like, okay. I'm doing something very focused here. And it reminds me of a spreadsheet that that I then use. So so I guess kind of the the wrapping up question is, like, well, Do you, yeah, do you suggest any kind of tracking method? How do you know whom you've already pitched? Worst Case is probably when you pitch [00:18:00] someone this the second time, and they're like, hey. You just sent me this 6 months ago. So what what kind of, uh, yeah, tools do you you recommend people use, if any? Rachel: Yeah. I absolutely recommend a tracker. So we get to that's about, like, 2 thirds of the way through the workshop, and I'm like, okay. Everybody just gonna get real sad for a minute because we're having to talk about metrics. Yeah. But Actually, it can be fun. It can be nice. I've, uh, I created a spreadsheet tracker that I share with everybody. I also have a Notion 1 that I use just I keep all my business stuff in Notion that I also share the template. And, um, what I always tell everyone is that, like, yes. I know we don't like Spreadsheets, but this 1 is colored. It has pretty colors everywhere. It's nice. It's a friendly spreadsheet. I love that. Um, we track as much information as we need 2, but no more. Because I also see people that either don't wanna track anything at all, and they're like, I'll just I'll just let the the ether of the Internet tell me what to do. Or They go the other 1. They're like, well, if I don't know their Social Security number, have I even kept [00:19:00] track? And I'm like, no. You need their name. You need the last time they talk you talk to them, And you need, um, like, whether they're a yes or a no in their website. That's it. That's all you need. And so as long as you can keep up with those 4 things, like, that's all you need for the tracking. Sarah: Right. Yeah. And and so maybe to come full circle, what you said at the beginning of the the episode is, like, It doesn't matter whether it's a yes or no. What matters is that you reached out. Right? And so we're not really Tracking so much the yeses, but more we're more tracking that we've done it. Is is that Rachel: correct? Yeah. So you track how you've done it. And then I always I also recommend people to take, after about 3 months, to, uh, track how you feel about it. Like, does this feel good to you? Are you getting what you want out of this? If so, fantastic. Keep doing it. If not, then that's a really good sign that you can make a change Because there's no 1 right or wrong way to do this. There's just the way that you make conversation and the way that [00:20:00] you reach out to people. So I always encourage people to Track those qualitative metrics over time as well. Sarah: Yeah. Makes a lot of sense to feel into it because if it if it feels exhausting Sting and you're having all these 1 on 1 conversations. And at the same time, you need to give it some time. Right? Yeah. So it's like, well, just by doing it 3 weeks is not gonna make your business explode. So it's kinda like use Common sense and and and maybe, yeah, do less of it, but keep consistency. So just, Yeah. Adapt. Yeah. And readjust. Yeah. Exactly. Wonderful. Well, tell us a A little bit about your structure of the workshop that you're gonna be doing for us on March sixth. Oh, I'm so excited. Rachel: So we will come in, and we'll start by talking about, uh, why everyone hates pitching. And, um, I'll go through the 3 things that, Uh, not to do and 3 things to do. So we'll keep it really simple. [00:21:00] Um, and then we will go into strategy for pitching. So, uh, how to how to create a strategy that actually makes sense for you and gets you what you want in your business, and that's where the beautiful little spreadsheet comes in because, of course, we have to track our metrics. Uh, we will then go into creating your, uh, pitching template. And so this is kind of a it's a foundational letter That you write. And then you're gonna modify that slightly for each different person or podcast that you pitch to, but the general structure is always the same. So we'll talk through that, And then we'll wrap up with some, uh, information about vetting, you know, how to find where to find people, um, and what to do when you've actually got them. And, uh, I believe I'm trying to think. There's all sorts of resources attached to it at the end. So there's all kinds of gifts of, like, the the podcast trackers. Uh, I have a 1 sheet, Uh, thing as well, but they can they can use too if they want to. And then, uh, we also have something for a press release, and I feel like I threw some oh, yeah. I have a template For asking for, uh, testimonials and referrals that [00:22:00] I also throw in there as well. So we end with gifts. Oh, and, of course, I forgot the most important part. We do live feedback. So they will actually draft that letter while we're on the workshop together, and then they can get live feedback from me, uh, while they're on the workshop. Or if we're very introverted, and that sounds terrible, they can also email it to me afterwards, and we can just work on it via email. That's It's wonderful. Sarah: Yeah. Really, really looking forward to that. Thanks so much for for doing this. So, again, if you're listening to this and You're not yet part of the Humane Marketing Circle, you can still join us. And and so just go to humane dot marketing forward slash Workshop, and the page will be ready there. We're just asking for a donation, uh, between 15 and 27 dollars. But, yeah, we'd love to have you and, uh, workshop. You're pitching with us. I'm really looking forward to to that. Thanks so much, um, for doing this. And something just just came to mind, and it left me again.[00:23:00] What did it have to do with? Something that you said in the bonuses. 1 Rachel: sheet, press Sarah: releases. Yeah. Press releases. Exactly. Because we talked a lot about podcast pitching today, um, and then we talked about Service pitching. But you're right. There's the there's the testimonials. That's the other 1 you mentioned. In a way, that's a pitch too. Right? It's a pitch. It has this kind of sales connotation, but essentially, it's just an ask. It's Yeah. Asking for something, And that can be a testimonial. It can be for for, uh, yeah, an article that you want to have published. Um, any anything I'm forgetting? Rachel: Yeah. Like, referral asks. I do that a lot as well, um, and I encourage my clients to do it. Gosh. Anything. Uh, pitching to be to to teach a workshop in someone's space. I've done that a lot. I also teach, uh, like, continuing legal education. Uh, so I do legal marketing stuff [00:24:00] as well. So, uh, I'll pitch to law societies or bar associations and say, hey. I'd love to do a CLE for you. So There's I mean, it's really I love that you reframed it as an ask because that's really what it is. It's just, hey. Can we do this? Yeah. And that's so much easier to get behind than Give me something, which I think is most people approach pitching. Sarah: Yeah. Exactly. Can't wait. So Really? Yeah. Go Go to humane dot marketing forward slash workshop and join us on March sixth because we're gonna have lots of fun and, uh, doing some serious work as well. So thanks so much, Rachel. Rachel: Uh, I love it. I'm so excited. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

In today's episode I'm welcoming Melissa Davis to talk about how to get clarity and direction in our business by knowing our values. We delve into the crucial process of translating our values into tangible actions and enabling us to authentically 'walk our talk.' Join us as we explore how this deep reflection on our values not only aligns with our purpose but serves as a guiding force toward genuine business clarity. This episode is a compass for solopreneurs navigating the path of purpose-driven business in the evolving landscape of conscious entrepreneurship. In our conversation, Melissa and I addressed the following topics: How Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and ‘walk our talk' How this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and much more...   Ep 182 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers, because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zannakroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're Ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like Like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer 1 on 1 support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, General business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years Business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, Wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my 1 on 1 client. You can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, Have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane dot marketing. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the p of Personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7 p's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here, this is your first time, a very big warm welcome. But you may not know what I'm talking about, You can go to download your 1 page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the 7 [00:03:00] Ps of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash guanpage, the number 1 in the word page. And this comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So today, I'm talking to Melissa Davis about the importance of your values. And if you're familiar with my work, you know how much I care about values as well. I wrote about them in the Marketing Like Human book and they are also part of the Marketing Like We're Human program. And it's really by talking with Melissa that I realized How knowing your values really gives you clarity and direction in your business. I always knew they were important and At the Marketing Like We're Human program is this foundational marketing program, but when she mentioned clarity and direction, I'm like, yeah, I'm totally with you. Before I tell you a little bit more about [00:04:00] Melissa, allow me to share a little bit more about The marketing like we're human, AKA the client resonator, my flagship program that I've been running since 2009 19 pre COVID, imagine that. And, uh, it starts again with a live cohort on March fourteenth. So today I was just talking to a potential participant and described the program to him as a program for deep thinkers. I think you heard me say that before on this podcast. I really feel Like a deep thinker myself, and I feel like that's who I do my best work with. And so, yeah, it's a program for deep thinkers who want to create their marketing foundation once and for all. So starting from within, from their why, and aligned with whom they are and aligned with their values. So if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you [00:05:00] are already familiar with the 7 p's of humane marketing. So passion, Personal power, people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership. And that's exactly the framework that the program follows. And besides in-depth videos and workbooks, we also have a weekly call to deepen the content of these topics. Even though I say it's about the marketing foundation, I often have participants who are not really new to business. So, Yes. It's foundational. But oftentimes, in business, we come to the foundation maybe 2 years in, maybe 5 years in, or even 10 years in. And that's because first, we are just wanting to Do the marketing stuff, you know, the the the the how. We are interested in the how. And so a lot of times people come to me after being 2 years, [00:06:00] 5 years, or 10 years, and often that's kind of when they're pivoting In their business and they've been through the motions. They've done what people told them to do in their marketing and just realized, A, it's not working. Or b, it may have been working, but it brought them the wrong clients or it's just not aligned with Them or their bigger why. So, yeah, that that's probably a third, um, uh, participant is Is the 1 that is looking for this bigger why. That has been in business and of course, I'm talking a little bit about myself and that's why I created the program. Um, so, you know, I had a business, a LinkedIn consultancy business for 10 plus years, but I just Felt like there's more than that. There's more than just the business that pays the bills. And so that's really what this, uh, program also does. It Connects you with your why, it connects you with your [00:07:00] life's work, and, uh, creates this foundation that is aligned with who you are and allows you to bring more of you to your marketing. Yeah. So that's what we do. We we go deep and we create the Foundation once and for all so that you can find out which marketing activities will flow for you. It's part Self development, part very pragmatic business best practices, part left, part right brain, mind and heart. And if that's resonating with you, have a look at the program details and watch some of the case studies, uh, as well at, uh, humane dot marketing forward slash program. And then let's get on a call to answer your questions and find out if it's a good Fit for you and where you currently are in your business. Okay. Back to Melissa. So Melissa Davis is on a mission to make sure that every change [00:08:00] maker gets the clarity they need to reach their full potential and deliver their gifts to the world. Through her work with startups, entrepreneurs, and change makers, she's uncovered an Invaluable process for helping them get foundational clarity, love that, on their purpose and Packed so they can go out and into the world and start top taking action. So in our conversation, we addressed the following topics, how Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and actually walk our talk. So going beyond Just that poster in our office that has our values up there. Well, how do we actually bring them into our business, bring them into our marketing? And then also how this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and, uh, of [00:09:00] course, so much more. So Without further ado and blah blah, let's, uh, dive right in. Hey, Melissa. So good to see you. Talk to you again. Really delighted to have you on the humane marketing podcast. Melissa: Oh, I'm really excited to be here. Um, I love your work, Sarah, and I have your book right here. I mean, um, rereading. Yeah. I I, um, I'm thrilled to To kind of sit down and, and, and really just dive into all of this because I think it's so important, um, To me as well. Um, and I just I really love I really love the work you're Sarah: doing. Thank you. And and maybe we can start by sharing how we Connected. I think that's always interesting for, uh, listeners to hear because, you know, there's this rare occasion where I do accept, Uh, a podcast pitch, but it's very rare. Most [00:10:00] often, it's, you know, conversations or, uh, Kind of like serendipity meetings like ours, uh, that then lead me to say, hey. I want you on my podcast. So why why don't you start by sharing that story? I'm trying to remember the story. Melissa: Did I reach I reached out Sarah: to you. Yeah. You reached out to me where, uh, we were connected on the collect, Uh, the, um Oh, yeah. Melissa: That's right. Changing work collective. Changing work Sarah: collective. Yeah. And so you reached out to me there. And then I was, like, Looking at your website and it said, Humanity Inc. I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yes. You know, there's serendipity right there. Yeah. Yeah. And so we Melissa: have Well, that's what I thought when I read your, you know, your bio, and I I think I saw you post, um, may it may have been something about the book. Um, right. And it was just like, I've gotta connect to Sarah. You know, you know you know when when you see it. You know you know when [00:11:00] you see That authenticity, um, show up. Yeah. And and it just it it felt like we needed to connect. Sarah: Yeah. And here we are a few months later. Thank you. Um, so, yeah, let's let's talk about Well, you mentioned authenticity. Uh, we wanna talk about values because that's the work you do. So maybe start us off there. Like, How did you get into this work and why did you call like, I have so many questions. Why do you call Your website, Humanity Inc, and what does that have to do with values? I guess that's my Melissa: first question. Okay. So there's like a little figure 8 of a story here. Um, so I got into values. So values was the initial impetus for me to kind of leave, um, Um, traditional work and go off on my own. Um, so I'd worked with, um, a few I'd [00:12:00] Worked with a few different larger organizations and then, um, a few smaller startup organizations. And, Um, what triggered my exploration of values was actually misalignment to values. And I think that's probably how everybody starts to recognize This distance between them and something else that's happening. Right? So, you know, what I recognized specifically in in The the the 1 startup that I'd been with for 5 years, um, was that we didn't have A singular set of values that drove us all in the same direction. And and so, You know, when I sat where I sat in the office, I was looking at this wall with these, you know, you can buy that big sticker with whatever writing you want on it. And I had the values of the organization. And I sat there every day and I rolled my eyes at this list of values that the organization said They were driven by, [00:13:00] and it was just bullshit. You know, I hope I can swear on your podcast. I'm sorry. Yeah. No. It really wasn't. It was just and and so I started calling them eye roll values. And I don't know if I started doing that at the time, but I definitely did later. Um, you know, and it's kind of like the worst thing that can, you know, erode an organization is having declaring that this is what we're all about, But we don't reflect that at all within our organization. So we kind of tried to dig in and and really understand What was happening in the organization? What were our, you know, um, driving values? What what came what brought us all together To grow in in the direction the organization wanted us to. Um, and so eventually I left That organization, because no 1 was interested in looking at that with me. No 1. You know, I mean, particularly in the leadership, um, There. And so [00:14:00] that was really frustrating. So my first experience with exploring values was incredibly frustrating, but, but it, It just really led me to kind of dig in further. And I, and I really developed this whole structure around it, you know, and, and continue to just Build on how I understood values and the roles that they played. And it was really focused on within organizations. Um, and I landed a a really fantastic job, um, And was incredibly excited about it. It was really aligned to my values. It was aligned to the work that I wanted to be doing with values embedded in my work. Um, and I ended up being laid off 3 months later when the giant client that I was brought in to to support left. And as most layoffs go, they're the best thing that's ever happened to you. You know, I mean, if you've ever been laid off, it's devastating at the time. But if you ask 9 [00:15:00] out of 10 People who ever, you know, got laid off ends up being the best thing that's ever happened to them in their career. And that's true for me as well. So, Um, you know, initially set off to continue my job search, um, and advance my career, and I just couldn't nothing. Nothing sounded good. I had a few offers. I just I couldn't stomach it. I would read these job descriptions, and I was just like, Do this. I don't wanna do any of it. It all makes me nauseous. It all just felt so shallow and so Boring, and I just I just couldn't do it. I really, like I physically was like, Do it, um, which is funny because I was pretty driven before. Um, and and it really struck me at that point that I've been doing all this work of examining organizations. Right? Like, why am I not turning this in on myself so that I could Figure out what this thing is that you [00:16:00] felt this fire, like just restlessness to do something completely different. Um, and it didn't occur to me until then to turn the work I was doing in values around on myself. Right. Uh, and that's really, that's the impetus for me going into business. Now, at the time, that business became values to brand, and it was focused on marketing. Um, I'd had some experience in marketing. Um, I went off and I studied with Donald Miller and I became a guide. Um, I'm no longer, um, a StoryBrand guide, but it was incredibly valuable for me to kind of build, Um, you know, some authority in the marketing space and their, um, their model, um, and Structure around it is just so incredibly simple and and wonderful. Um, and so When was that? So when was this whole? 2017 Teen maybe ish. No. Eights are not my thing. No, mine [00:17:00] neither. You have to be 18. My husband is the master of the debates. Right. You know, like, what what time was Owen born? You know, like, I'm like, I don't know. There's just my brain doesn't work like that. Right. Um, and I've worked in accounting. Um, so yeah. And and and so I continued in that, and And it just over time evolved into really understanding that what I was doing wasn't marketing And what I loved wasn't marketing. I could do it and I became incredibly proficient at it and fantastic at writing and articulating What other people couldn't articulate well, um, and that is that's a real gift of mine. Um, it's But I discovered it really wasn't marketing. And what I really wanted to do was help people get clarity because I started working with organizations, it was very small Organizations, but organizations, um, [00:18:00] in their marketing efforts. And I had a lot of technology background, so it was really easy to kind of like dive in. But they had they actually had no clarity around how they wanted to talk about what they needed to in their marketing. And so I kind of went, I need to be back here further. I need to be earlier in the journey. Mhmm. Um, and Mhmm. Because that's what I that's my gift. I I'm really fantastic at pulling putting dots together, and it all starts with values. Values just they there's So many roles that values play. It's we we often look at values in this very thin kind of, um, lens Of what's important to me. You're right. And values are so, so much more than that. And there's so much tangible evidence in our lives to tell us what our values are and to explore them and to reveal themselves to us. And so it's really accessible and it offers so much information [00:19:00] about our gifts and about our passion and What we really want to be doing with our lives and who to surround ourselves with and how to go at it. And so, um, And I was so passionate about doing work that mattered and solving problems that really advance humanity. Not, You know, not this localized sense of I just wanna make my life better, which is fantastic, and I think that That's a step. Um, but what really was important to me was to work with clients who had a sew that. Right? This idea that This work matters because I wanna help solve this bigger problem in the world. Right. Yeah. And so it eventually changed to Humanity Inc. Sarah: Okay. So the the website then changed to Humanity Inc. Yeah. And And, yeah, really, there was this huge resonance when I when I saw the [00:20:00] website, Humanity Inc, but then also when we had This conversation a few months back when you were sharing about the values, and I'm like, yeah, that's how I'm talking about the worldview And how, you know, in the in the 7 p's of humane marketing, you you start with passion and personal power, Which is exactly what you said. I'm earlier in the journey, and so that's what you're helping your clients with. Um, and and 1 word that really stood out as Well, is the word that you use clarity. And and I have been starting to say foundation. So it Melissa: Like That's what I end up call I call myself a foundational clarity Sarah: coach. Ah, there you go. Yeah. So so it really is that that saying where it's like, well, Yeah. You need clarity, and then you need that clarity to build your foundation. And that's what in a way, that's what you did. You figured out your values, And then you brought those values into your business and into your marketing and called it [00:21:00] humanity, Inc. Because you care about these Melissa: things. And so you want And my clients care about those things. Right? You want to help people. Yeah. Our our niche, our clients value what we value and they believe what we believe. Exactly. And it's within the scope of the values that we are driving and making central to our business. Right? We have, You know, we we have a lot of beliefs and we have, um, a number of values that are very central to us. And, you know, what we do is kind of like, what's the, Um, what's the stake in the ground that I'm putting out there and what are the values that drive that? And our niche, You know, our, our customers and our clients, they share those values and they believe what we believe. And so, you know, it drives me crazy when I see an entrepreneur trying to understand the values of their niche. And I'm like, you have to understand your values. Right. Your values. Absolutely. Start with you. Decide your niche. Yeah. [00:22:00] Mhmm. Yeah. And then you may have to figure Sarah: out the next thing I can do. Out there is so outward focused. Right? Yes. We feel like we're wasting time if we're look looking inside. And so I guess the question then, The logical next step question is, well, knowing my values, how do I turn those values into tangible Actions or, you know, business advice. So Melissa: take us there. Oh, that's the most exciting part. I mean, Our values provide so many clues as to what our outward action needs to look like. Um, you know, and they play different roles. You know, some of our Our highest values are part of the problem that we solve for our niche. [00:23:00] And that's a little bit of a process, but that really that 1 in particular kind of blows people's minds. Right? We're all, I think at our core, 1 of our deepest drives as human beings beyond safety and belonging Is to live in alignment to our values because that leads us to this Fulfillment, right, and to the these higher levels in the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the pathway to doing that is actually living in alignment to our values. At the base of that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, values don't play, um, a role. They don't play as big of a role In, um, in making sure that we're safe, making sure that we're fed, making sure that we have a roof over our house. Right? It's kinda hard to focus on values When we have to take care of our basic needs. Beyond that, as we, you know, as we move through belonging and then and then further up, our drive [00:24:00] Is to feel passionate and to feel fulfilled and happy and surround ourselves with people that are like us. And so, um, there's good sides to that, and there's not so good sides to that. Right? You know, our values kind of shift and evolve A little bit over time, they they reprioritize, um, but there is this massive drive to do that. And so what happens throughout our journey, wherever we are, whatever we're doing and whatever we desire, there's often a value of ours that we struggle to live. Right? So our values, um, we can have really strong values for something and not do a very good job of living it. Um, if if a value is not lived, we feel this Dissonance, this cognitive dissonance. And it it can actually make us feel sick. So we know it when it happens. We we don't feel good about ourselves. We don't feel good about our lives. We don't Feel right? We feel unfulfilled. Um, [00:25:00] and so what we do is we seek to close that gap, Right? In a lot of different ways. Some are healthy and some are not healthy. Um, but we reach urgency See, when we realize I've gotta do something that allows me to live this value, um, at a much higher level. And so ultimately, every problem that any entrepreneur solves is tied to helping our Clients and customers close the gap on a value that they're not living very well. Mhmm. And we may directly do it or we may indirectly do it, but we've got to And how we connect to living their values. And so that is 1 of the most direct ways that our values play into how we show up as entrepreneur, but they also determine our differentiation. I wanna work with, You know, I can work with any marketing expert. What differentiates you, Sarah, [00:26:00] you know, and your teaching Is your values. Right? Um, and it's 1 element of it, but it's probably the most important element of differentiation is I wanna work with somebody who shares my values. Right? It's important to me to get visible. I'm talking about myself right now. It's important for me to get visible. I have something really important that I want and need the world to know, and I have something to offer that I think is really important because We need more change makers to get out there and do the work of solving the big problems so that we can advance humanity. Right? Exactly. Okay. That value that I'm closing there for myself and for my clients is accountability. It's this sense of I must, I I know I have a higher potential and I've got to live it. I have this accountability to it. Um, if I sit here and I don't get visible and I don't do it Right. I'm not living my value of accountability. I'm sitting on my [00:27:00] butt and I'm wasting away and I'm not doing the thing. Um, and what I'm drawn to with you is is your value of Living in in your conscience, living in showing up in a humane way And living in compassion. And so that is How you do the work that you do. And it's important to me to align with somebody that does that because I don't wanna go out and spam The world with anything. Right? I can't this this interview is incredibly timely because I just really, like, hit my limit on the number of Invitations that I get on LinkedIn that are immediately followed by a pitch. I saw your Sarah: post. Yeah. Melissa: I'm like, And not doing it anymore. Um, and I've said that before and I still do it because I'm like, what if they're [00:28:00] like the most wonderful connection that I ever, you know, Um, I'm probably an eternal optimist, and I really I really don't like to shut people down and live in that energy. Um, but then it happens, and I'm deeply disappointed. And I'm like, why were you disappointed in this, Melissa? Well, it's that value. Right? Yeah. Um, so we work with people, right? There are operating values that we have, and there are differentiation. You know, they're how we show up To do the work that we do. And we must really embrace those values because that's what other people are are very much attracted to. We have very little competition in the world. Right? Mhmm. Very little competition in the world because Yeah. The way that you do it, the uniqueness Of how you do it is incredibly different from everyone around you. Yeah. There are plenty of people, right, That are drawn to it, but you have to get visible. I know we were talking about that before. So you still need to get out there. [00:29:00] Um, but then Yeah. But that's the targeted Sarah: action that we were saying. Well, how do you turn this these values that are internal Into something external. Um, well, you just said it. Right? It's like, okay, I wanna be visible, but I don't wanna just be visible in any kind of spammy way. Right? Yeah. You would never do that and just start spamming everybody, um, um, LinkedIn with with your pitches. So So it's like the value gets transformed or transmitted to the action that you're taking. And And for you, it's values. For me, it's worldview or the humane approach to whatever you do. And It's so true. And another thing that came up when you mentioned the Maslow's pyramid, I'm like, yeah. That's that's really good because my I call my people and I know you are a deep thinker as well. Right? That's kind of for me, that's a flag. It's like, this person is a deep Thinker, just like me. And they don't, you [00:30:00] know, they they they look at things. Yeah. They just think Deeply about things and they care. Uh, you know, humane marketing is for the generation of marketers that care. It's this deep deep Care and thinking about things. Um, and you're right. That doesn't happen at the bottom of the pyramid. Right? It's like you Have evolved, uh, or Yeah. Well, you can't Melissa: the privilege as well. You have the privilege. Exactly right. And have the privilege to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's too it's too much. Um, it had it happens. There are some people who can who can do that And who are struggling to to make it, um, for whatever reason, um, through the hierarchy of needs, it happens. But it's very it's it's too much to ask for someone who is who is struggling to Strictly aligned to their values, [00:31:00] um, and to focus on that and and to be able to do that. And it's it's, uh, yeah. Sarah: Yeah. And we need to, you know, understand that and show empathy because we're not in the same situation. Melissa: So Exactly. Right. And have someone that they can work with. Right. Or something that we can offer. Right. That, um, is more accessible. Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. This whole conversation also made me think of, uh, another conversation I had on the podcast about activism, Like business, uh, as activism. Right? And in a way, we're we're almost talking about that here because Especially because we care, you say, you know, humanity. You mentioned the current, uh, challenges. So in a way, it's almost like it's Borderline activism because we are truly just saying, no, we're not just doing it for the profit. We're really wanting it to do also [00:32:00] to move humanity or, you know, solve the problems we were facing right now. Melissa: Yeah. And it is like, I, you know, I, I use word, put a stake in the ground, you know, what do you stand for? Uh, and I think that Oftentimes that gets confused with, I have to have an opinion about everything, or I have to show my solidarity With what's happening in the world or I have to make a statement, and that's not what it means. What it means is I understand the lane That I'm passionate about. Mhmm. I understand where my stake in the ground Is and where people are looking to me for my thoughts and opinions and solidarity and strength. Mhmm. And, Um, I've I I and I do struggle with this even. You know, um, you know, when you when you look at what's happening in the world and people around you look for A [00:33:00] statement. Right. Something big happens. And I think we all have to kind of look internally and say, what What is my lane? Is this something that the world is looking to me for my thoughts Um, there that's a big difference between reaching out to the people in your lives who And having conversations. Yeah. And having conversations. That's not what I'm talking about. Right. Yeah. Um, but I think it's very challenging. I think the world is is, And social media specifically conflates this sense of having a stake in the ground with Showing up to every big thing that happens and demanding that you put a stake in the ground in a space that's not yours. And But it's such a good point. Yeah. Quite a big challenge to me. And I, um, have to remind myself all the [00:34:00] time that That's not my I didn't put a stake in the ground on that fight. If I had, then it is demanded that I that I Have something to say, I suppose. Yeah. Um, you know Sarah: what I use for this? I use the 17 sustainable development goals for this with my clients, And I have you know, this is the UN who basically looked at all the current challenges that we have and said, okay. Here are 17 that are currently really pressing. Um, and so I have my clients look at that and say, look. All of these problems right now are super important. Uh, all of them, all 17, but you can't focus your energy on all 17. So Choose 1 or Melissa: 2 maximum. I would argue. Sarah: I would argue. 1. Yeah. 1 is this number 17 is partnership. And so I feel like that applies to, like, almost everything because we need partnership and [00:35:00] community in Melissa: every That's a how though. It Sarah: yeah. It's it's almost like it's kind of a side. Right? Because the other ones are are, you know, Water, ocean, um, climate, like electricity Melissa: and all of that. So so yeah. It's almost like unity. You know? Exactly. So Sarah: that's why I say Pick 2, but make sure a partnership is 1 of them. Right. But but then yeah. Exactly what you say. Then it's like, well, if, You know, that there's something going on that has to do with that topic, then, yes. You know, people expect you to maybe make a statement. Um, but if it's not, then then it's not it's not your role to to to pitch in. So I I really like how you said it. Is it my lane? Is this expect because I use the word worldview, And there as well, it could be like, oh, I have to always express my worldview about this and this and this. Yeah. Like, no. I I [00:36:00] actually don't feel good about Because then we have the polarity, you know, with all these wars that are going on right now. And so it's like, well, no. I don't need to say, you know, if I'm I'm not usually, I'm not on any side, but I yeah. It's not part of My role, even I guess, as an activist, it wouldn't be part of of my role in this case. Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and There are times when I think that we do need to make a stand. There are definitely, you know, Points where it's incredibly relevant to our work to do it. Um, and and then we should. You know, it's just deciding, Is this because we feel the pressure to, you know, is this something that's relevant Yeah. To be in my work? Um, not just everyone's making a statement, and therefore I need to. Mhmm. So [00:37:00] Because, of course, we have opinions and we have thoughts and we have, you know, I mean, um, and explorations and confusion and, you know, and And questions and it but it doesn't mean that that and and I'm talking about a brand. I'm talking about, You know, us as humans behind a brand and a business and this stake in the ground that we've put around, what do we stand for? And this is why I'm doing the work that I'm doing. Right? That's what I'm talking about. And it's it is. It's incredibly challenging. However, understanding what you Stand for understanding your values, understanding, as you said, the roles that I play. What is my role in my work? And then how do I show up through that role to make a statement, um, or to Further my stake in the ground or to explain or whatever, that's incredibly helpful to take action. Mhmm. Because actions are how we live our values. Right? What are the roles that, Um, [00:38:00] that embody me and who I am that allow me to live my values. So, um, they're, they're incredibly helpful for understanding when it's right, you know, and how to, um, Take action on anything, not just, you know, not just activism, but but on anything. How do I show up on social media? How do I show up? It's walking the talk. Yeah. How do I show up? Right? Those are the roles. Mhmm. Sarah: I wanna talk a little bit about The idea of changing values. So not us necessarily, um, but more like Humanity at large. Right? I feel like we're going through a huge shift of changing values. Um, right now, Uh, maybe we're still in the middle of the storm, but we're definitely getting towards something, um, Kind of more conscious and, you know, at [00:39:00] least the the probably the the people that we hang out with, Uh, have very different values from maybe, uh, our grandparents had. So how have you looked at this also kind of in from a larger Effective, you know, how do generations how do their values change? Melissa: Yeah. It's really interesting to look at, And it's not something that I've spent a lot of time focusing on, you know, the the the evolution of values because Cultures have these kind of underlying, you know, values that drive them. Um, communities have values that drive them. Generations have values is that drive them. Um, and so there are all these different flavors of these group values. Right. And, you know, and then we have our individual values. And values come from a lot of different places and named a couple, but Religion, our family, you know, our culture, right? There are all these kind of [00:40:00] outside forces that impose values on us. Right. And then we have these innate values, these things that we're, like, born with or that develop from experiences that we have in our lives. And for whatever reason, they're all there, for right or for wrong. And, you know, values, We often put this kind of positive slant on values, and there's this incredibly powerful driver that values can have on us. But there's also dark side of values, Right? Values are how we show up in our bias. Values are how we show up in our judgment. And so they Aren't always positive drivers in our lives. So it's really interesting to look at, you know, how they influence How we move around in the world and how we see things in front of us. Um, and so It's fascinating to look at. It is fascinating to look at how things shift and change because those cultural values, those [00:41:00] religious values, right? I think what's happening is that we're questioning more Than we were before. Right. So I think all of that's still happening. Right? There's always an evolution of cultural values. There's always an evolution of Religious values and of course through generations, those values that get passed on change too because our parents have different experiences in the world and they want to Still different things in us. And so there's just an evolution that happens. But I think what's happening now is that we're questioning it more. I think we're going, is that mine? Is it really my responsibility to carry on this value? Is it it's not mine. It's my parents. It's it's it's this religion that I don't wanna have anything to do with anymore. It's this Culture in America that's toxic. Right? It's not mine. I think we're just [00:42:00] I think we're more introspective. Well, general You and I Sarah: also everybody. About change makers. Right? And so just this word change maker, well, obviously, We want change. And so, clearly, our values can be the same as the values that, Uh, our parents or grandparents had. Yep. So we are looking for something that is different than we have today. And so, necessarily, our values need to be not according to, you know, what has worked in the past 50 years. So I I feel like, yeah, that's fascinating too. And I'm sure you kinda see a pattern with your clients as well that often the values are, Melissa: you know, similar. So Of course, they are because my clients value what I value and they believe what I believe. Now that doesn't mean they're exactly the same by any stretch. And that's the beautiful thing. I think I would be bored out of my skull if [00:43:00] every client I worked with wanted to do what I did and had the exact same values and the same experiences. That's not even close to true. Right. Their experiences with their values are so incredibly different. They show up in so many different ways, and they drive them in different ways. And the combination we have these like, oh, I get so excited talking about this. There's this magical combination of these values that we have that come together That, like, create they they they make a shape out of this fire that we have. And it's So cool to see that come together. I often could see it coming together before they do. And so they're like, I don't know why you're so excited about this. But, you know, you can you can really see it. You can see the essence of Sarah when I see that magical combination and Why this stake in the ground is so important to you and how these gifts that you have come together in this way that allow you to go out and do that. [00:44:00] And, um, yeah, I think we're, we're just, um, we're getting to the point where We're invested in in understanding ourselves at a really deep level, and I think that's expanding. I think people Know that it's possible. You know, we we kinda have this when we talk about conscious or, you know, inhumane marketing and, Um, being more compassionate about the world and open minded. And when we look at social media, we're like, ugh. Right? However, social media and the Internet have also done amazing things for open mindedness and for Exposing us to ideas and thoughts and solutions and pathways that we never would have been exposed to. And so I think that is also contributing to this idea of it's possible for me to move from this [00:45:00] state of being to another State of being or from this state of action to another state of action and to experience this transformation and this capability that I have To go out and do something big. Mhmm. And so for some people, what would just be this little, like, forever frustration Of knowing they have potential that, you know, that just dies with them at the end of their lives. They're realizing that there are pathways to take action on it And do something about it. And to me, that's the the most tragic is to have that and to know that you have this fire, to know that you have this Big potential and to never have taken action on it. Sarah: Yeah. What you described before is basically the definition of a change maker. Right? It's like, okay, I I know I I can contribute to this change. And and, um, I was having another conversation about pivots. I [00:46:00] was part of some summit about pivots, and I feel like there's Such an awakening of, uh, pivots now because people are kinda like you a few years ago. Right? You're in this corporate job, And you just like, I know we can do something much bigger than Melissa: what we're doing. I didn't even know what it looked like. It Sarah: was just Yeah. It's just like this Inner knowing, and it's like, well, I need to get out of this prison, and I just need to create it myself. And I feel like there's a lot of and a lot of people in this Melissa: Situation. And to be clear, I had to take a part time job to do that. Of course. No. That's the other thing. It's like you can't just jump ship and then Well, you can. But I I wanna, like, you know, I hate when, you know, it seems to somebody from the outside that, you know, you just make this jump. I just decided, and now I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm making a million no. That's not what happened. Right? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, [00:47:00] um, there is Nothing wrong with taking the step and saying, okay, what do I need to do to allow myself to take this The step towards what I know is bigger. And I'm like, you know Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I feel like we're at a very Promising crossroad, um, of of change. So I'm just super grateful that you're helping all these change makers find clarity because That is the 1 thing that can waste you a lot of time if you don't have clarity. Right? Melissa: Um, and I'm so grateful that you're helping them Figure out how to get out into the world with the message that they, that they have and need to deliver and to grow. Because if we can't grow, we can't impact. Yeah. Period. That's the thing. I mean, that's that's it. Right? Right. Sarah: You know? I feel like that's a a beautiful place to to close. This was wonderful. Thanks so much for [00:48:00] being here. 2 things. Um, please do share where people can find out more about humanity and your work on clarity and values. So share that. And then I have another last Melissa: question. Okay. Um, so you can find me on my website, Um, humanityinc dot world. Um, and you can find me on LinkedIn, um, at melissa highsley hyphen davis. And if you have show notes, so we can put it there so that you don't have to try to spell that. Um, those are the 2 primary places that I hang out. Sarah: Yeah. And my my last question that I always ask is, what are you grateful for today or this week? This year, I can say because we're at the beginning of the Melissa: year. Um, well, I'm grateful that you invited me on this podcast and I was really excited to be here because I I really do love your work so much. Um, and let's say this year, [00:49:00] um, I'm grateful for Realizing that I needed to bring other people into my work. Mhmm. And for that shift of I need to create this myself to I need to collaboration has always been really important to me, but but there's this I mean, you know, you're a creator too. And I don't know. There is it's tough. It's tough when you're creating To shift from creating to sharing. And and so it's, um, I'm grateful for that shift. I'm very grateful for that shift, and I'm grateful that I'm getting more comfortable being a lot more visible. And so I'm really excited, um, about everything. Yay. Sarah: Thank you for moments. Right? It's kinda like Exactly. Melissa: That's what I [00:50:00] live for. And it's really fun when they're your own too. Sarah: Yeah. It's amazing. Thanks so much for being here and, uh, to be continued, of course. To be continued. Thank you. As always, I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Hopefully, uh, that makes you think deeper about your values and how they impact your work. In order to find out more about Melissa and Her work, go over to humanity inc dot world, and you can also get her foundational clarity canvas at humanity inc dot dot com forward slash foundational dash clarity dash canvas. And if you are looking for others who think like you, why not join us in the humane marketing circle? You can find out more about The circle at humane dot marketing forward slash circle, and you find the show notes of this episode at [00:51:00] humane dot marketing forward slash h m 1 8 2. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the humane business Festo and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my 2 books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being a part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

In today's episode I'm excited to welcome Louise Taylor, a heart-centered marketing expert and a member of our Humane Marketing Circle. Louise brings a wealth of experience from her transformative journey in both corporate and creative realms. In this enlightening conversation, we explore how truly understanding yourself is key to standing out authentically in business. We discuss the profound impact of authenticity in resonating with your clients, and delve into how tools like the Fascinate assessment can illuminate your unique wiring. Join us for this insightful episode filled with practical tips for bringing your true self into your marketing and connecting deeply with those you serve. In this value-packed episode, Louise and I addressed: How Louise left her 20 year Corporate career and had to figure out how to market herself How taking the time to really figuring out who you are and how you're wired is the key to stand out authentically (and it's what we do so well in the MLWH program, which Louise participated in as well) How authenticity gives you deep inner peace and confidence to show up and stand out and resonate with your clients How Fascinate, an assessment created by Sally Hogshead truly helps you understand how the world sees you - and how you're fascinating How to bring this knowledge into your marketing (bring more of you to your marketing, as I always say) and much more... [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded. Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing circle And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 15 years. Business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. Hi there friends, thank you for being here. Today's conversation fits under the P of I'd say personal power and passion. So if you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is the first time you hear about this, you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of Humane Marketing at humane. marketing forward [00:03:00] slash one. Page. The number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. So it's not a, a seven step list on how to do humane marketing, but it's a reflective so that you get to actually be in charge and be this responsible, uh, business owner and human being to, um, put the thoughts into that kind of. groundwork for humane marketing. All right. So today I sit down with Louise Taylor, a fellow marketer, HSP, and member of the humane marketing circle, and we're getting ready to co host another collab workshop, and this time the topic is standing out. Authentically. So Louise Taylor is a heart centered brand and marketing leader with 20 plus years of experience in corporate, [00:04:00] B2B, B2C financial services, and purpose driven businesses. Add to that a decade of expertise in creative services, including design and photography, as an entrepreneur and creative soul early in her career. A high sensory coach, fascinate. So, certified advisor, high sensitive person and mentor. She naturally focuses on creating sincere and meaningful connections with all she engages with. As the founder of Firefly Effect, she brings a discerning and analytical approach and leverages her breadth of experience to help purpose driven and mission led organizations achieve their business goals and create a positive impact on those they serve. So in this value packed episode with Louise, we addressed how she left her 20 year corporate career and had to figure out how to market herself, how taking the time during COVID to [00:05:00] really figuring out how Who she was and how she's wired and how that really is the key to stand out authentically. And it's what we do so well in the Marketing Like We're Human program, which Louise also participated in, in those COVID years. We also talked about how authenticity gives you deep inner peace and it gives you the confidence to show up. and stand out and resonate with your clients. We then talked about how fascinate, uh, which is this assessment created by Sally Hogshead, truly helps you understand how the world sees you and how you're fascinating. So it's one of these assessments dad, um, looks from the outside in where most of the other assessments, Myers Briggs, Enneagram, et cetera, uh, look from The inside out. So how you see the world, how to then bring this knowledge into your marketing, as I [00:06:00] say, always bring more of you to your marketing. Um, but we need to actually figure out what is more of me. And so that's what this assessment and, and the work with fascinate helps us understand, well, this is more of me. So now let me bring more of that into our marketing. Both Louise and I share our assessment results. And so that kind of gives you some information about how, uh, the world sees me and the world sees Louise and how we actually live that in our businesses and much, much more. So have a listen, and if you crave more and want to learn more about these seven fascinate languages and have heartfelt conversations in a safe haven, then join us on February 7th, uh, have a look at humane. marketing, uh, forward slash workshop. So let's dive in right now. Hi, Louise. [00:07:00] So good to hang out with you. Welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Thank you. So great to be here. I'm so excited to be able to connect with you again. As always. It's always a great conversation. Yeah. And we, we did some prepping for this one because we're also collaborating on another collab workshop. And I'm really, really excited to have you on February 7th for the workshop that we do together around February 7th. You know, standing out authentically, but this is kind of like a teaser, uh, of this, uh, one on an hour and a half workshop. Um, but we're not just teasing. We're always giving great value as well. Right. For people who, who are, um, valued listeners, they, they know this about us and me. So I look forward to dig in. I was thinking maybe you can start with, um, you know, how you. Your story and how you moved [00:08:00] out of corporate, I was gonna say America, but corporate Canada. . How you moved corporate Canada, outta corporate Canada and then as, as a marketer, and then started your own business and, and then realized. Oh, okay. This is a different ball game. I have to now, you know, put myself out there and I have to sell myself and I still want to do it authentically. So, yeah, take us there. Tell us that story. How that evolved. Thank you. Yeah. So, you know, I spent. 20 years in corporate marketing and, you know, my last role as a, as a marketing leader, building marketing teams and functions and strategic, you know, making them a strategic function. And so it was very demanding. Um, I loved the work that I did. I loved, um, the learning that I got from all of those 20 years in, um, you know, developing myself as a marketer. And then in 2019, um, I [00:09:00] was, my, my role was eliminated and I was packaged and as part of a reorg, um, and then COVID hit and, you know, my initial thoughts were jump right back in and, you know, and, and get on that hamster wheel again. And when COVID hit, I had an opportunity to really sit back and kind of go, what do I really love? What would I love and instead of. Thinking that I need to do this. I mean, it was a single mom. I, you know, when my kids are older at the time, they're still, you know, what I call on my payroll because we're always supporting our kids. But, you know, I also had an opportunity at that time to stop and really reflect. And for me. Being authentic was something that I really struggled with. I'm an HSP, and in a fast moving corporate environment, there isn't always room, uh, for us. It's not always understood. Um, and so I, you know, I I tended to kind of push all of [00:10:00] that aside. Um, and when I had that opportunity to stop, I realized, you know, I really want to take everything I've learned over the last 20 years and bring back. I should mention before I spent 20 years in corporate. I had my own business. I was an entrepreneur for 15 years. Prior to jumping into corporate. And so there was a part of my heart that was like, I can help people, but I want to do it in a way that feels authentic to me. I need to honor that part of myself. And so I embarked on this journey to say, well, where do I go from here? I know a lot of things I've built brands. I've built, you know, marketing teams and, um, and I love so many different aspects of it, but how do I distill that down? To me, you know, going from a team of 15 people to one. And so there was a part of me that was like, how do I even talk about who I am and how I'm different because as a marketer, you know, you do a lot for other people and you're [00:11:00] building on this communication. But I didn't know how to talk about how I was different. And so that felt like, you know, the cobbler's got no shoes scenario where I, you know, I didn't know how to talk about how I was different. And so I embarked on this self, you know, this journey to try to self discovery. And then I stumbled upon, uh, fascinate. And for me, I'm, you know, I'm a junkie of all of the Myers Briggs and StrengthsFinders and Enneagram, like I've done them all and I love them because they've helped me understand who I am from the inside out. But what I loved about Fascinate when I took the test was that it's an outside in perspective. It's how the world sees me when I'm at my best. And when I took it, it I had an aha moment because it helps you understand the languages that you speak when you're in that flow state and you're excited and you're energized like you and I are doing right now. Um, I [00:12:00] am a passion person. So I speak the language of communication and connection. Um, but I'm also. A very, you know, 1 minute, I can be very in tune with somebody in the next minute. I can be a hermit. I can be this very quiet person who's always analyzing a situation. And I always felt that there was something wrong with me. Maybe there's something broken about me that I'm these opposite ends of the spectrum. And as it turns out, it's actually just who I am. And so when I learned that this is who I am, and it's actually my superpower. I was able to kind of start leaning into that a little bit more, not a little bit, a lot more. And I embraced it to the fact, to the point where, you know, the anthem that I created for myself is my guiding, is my guidepost. I, it helps me now distinguish myself and, and lean in and just embrace that I'm different and I'm okay with that now. You know, it was, it helped me understand and [00:13:00] embrace that, that difference. And so now I've incorporated that and it's part of what I do because I, I believe so strongly in, um, giving me the language, giving me the words that I could confidently feel like, yeah, this is really me. And here's how it's me. This is how it really is me. So it's going to be, I feel, yeah, I feel so obviously, you know, with marketing, like we're human and this is very aligned with, with what we're doing here. And And was it also in, in the COVID years that you, uh, came across the Marketing Like a Human program? I remember you reached out to me. I'm like, Oh, a fellow marketer. That is so great that other marketers are interested in, in that work. Was it during that time as well? 100 percent because as I was trying to discover, you know, there has to be a better way. I mean, I was in financial services and I still work in financial services in what I do now on my own, but I get to choose and I [00:14:00] work very purpose driven mission centered businesses. Um, that became really important to me and I didn't really know anybody else. Who felt that way about marketing. It's like, we do really good things and there's, there's a need for what we do. And there's a love of. Building strong brands that are authentic, but I was really searching for a community and a group that felt the same way that I did. And so my research led me to you, um, and you know, I bought your first book and I did your program and I was like, okay, I want to embrace and learn everything there is to know about what's been in my heart, but I haven't really, I've felt like this lone wolf in a sea of, you know, marketers who are all about the bottom line and let's. You know, what are the sales targets and everything? And to me, it didn't feel, that's not me. That doesn't feel like who I am. I care about, you know, doing good work. And I care [00:15:00] about making, you know, achieving results, but it's not what's driving me. What's driving me is how do we do good in the world? And how do we make it? A better place through what we know as marketers. Yeah. I feel like you're a really good poster child for marketing. Like we're human because I mean, really like, you know, 2019 we're now in 2024. That is a. A very short framework for launching a business. And so it just shows me that you gave yourself that deep reflection. And yes, probably the first or two first two years were a bit slow. Right. It's like, okay, who am I? How am I different? How can I be authentic and yet stand out? But. You gave yourself that time and invested in finding out who you are, and now you're bringing that to the table and look at you now, you have a thriving business. I mean, it really shows that [00:16:00] slow and deep really, really works. And I think that's what we want to talk about here a little bit. Like, what, what, you know, why would we even have. Pay attention to, uh, a workshop that's called, um, stand out authentically, right? Most people would just want to stand out, you know, bottom line. It's like, okay, I want to stand out, but we're talking here about standing out and being authentic and being different. So why does that matter to us? And I guess, and also to our clients, why does that matter so much? Yeah, that's a, it's such a great, it's such a great reflection, you know, because for, for most of my career, I did what I thought people wanted from me, you know, and I ignored and pushed down what I was actually thinking or feeling, um, because my value, I thought my value. Was in [00:17:00] what I do for others and the results that I give, but what I had the opportunity to reflect through covid was and do that deeper dive on myself is to understand that that that that was based and coming from a place of fear, not love. And when I've learned to love myself and take that time to sort of say, like, what matters to me, I feel there's this multiplication where I've lived this life that was divided between who I am and what I do. And when I was, when I embraced. Bringing all of that together and authentically being who I am in what I do and what I do. Um, I'm, I'm multiplying. I've gone from being divided to multiply where one plus one now equals three for me and the value that I feel like I add. And I'm attracting people who are more like me or who appreciate what I bring to the table. So [00:18:00] yes, we can all have the same skills. But the satisfaction and the, and the joy that I get from working with somebody who appreciates that authenticity that I bring to the table and sometimes a bit of woo, and sometimes it's a lot of logic and information, and my ability to see a light at the end of the tunnel and get us across the finish line, but I'm doing it with a deeper connection. And so there's just this, I don't know this inner calmness that I have of, of. Feeling like I, by bringing all of who I am to the table, I'm detracting those that don't care about that, which is great. You know, there is somebody out there who is in alignment with that person, but for the person who cares about. That authenticity and the purpose and the why we do what we do, I feel a greater amount of joy. And so my work doesn't feel like work. It's just [00:19:00] making an impact and doing it in a way that just is in alignment with who I am in my soul. Yeah. I think you just described the definition of a humane business that, that it really. That's what it is for me. It's like, yes, it's a business, but it's a business that is aligned with who you are. And so it doesn't feel like work. And at the same time, it feels very joyful to work with clients and, and, you know, do create change. And you, you mentioned that inner calm or inner peace. I think that is such a big part of it. Um, And it's, it's underestimated, like it's undervalued. I feel like, you know, we, we go out there and, and I, I know that a lot of people are like, well, what I need is tactics. What I need is, you know, learn how to be on LinkedIn and publish on LinkedIn. Yes, you need that. As well, what you need first is this, you know, [00:20:00] understand who you are, uh, your values, how you're wired so that you can then come to whatever place you choose to be with this inner, inner peace. And yeah, so let's go back to the, the, this, um, work with fascinate, right? Because that's what we're going to be talking about in the, in the workshop. Um, so tell us a little bit about. You mentioned it's kind of one of the assessments that, um, tells you how the world sees you rather than some of the other assessments like Myers Briggs Enneagram, um, where it comes from how you see the world. Right. So how is this one different and how maybe you can also, uh, share a little bit about Sally, uh, Hogshead who created this whole work and how did you go about finding all of this out? Like, I'm curious about that. Yeah, you know what? It's, it's, um, it's really quite brilliant. So as a marketer, you [00:21:00] know, finding the words and the nuances of how you communicate became a fascination with me, especially because as a child, you know, I was really Um, I was very introverted and, and, um, you know, as an HSP, I didn't, I learned to wall off how I felt and how I communicated, but it also became a fascination for me in my career, you know, going into marketing, um, was something for me that I needed to do for others, what I really struggled to do for myself and. The outside in perspective, when you're with Sally, what I learned, um, as I did my research, um, once I did the test and I was so fascinated by my, by my own results, I dug a little bit deeper and understood that, you know, so Sally was a marketer is a marketer and at heart, she was a very, very successful advertising writer. By the time she was 27, she had, you know, [00:22:00] she, she was one of the most decorated. Advertising writers working with some of the largest corporate brands, and she became really interested in understanding what makes brands so fascinating. It's not the amount of money that they spend. So she undertook to do this research, hired a research company, and they studied hundreds of thousands of brands globally to understand what makes them fascinating. What one brand more fascinating than another. And she Still that together through all this research, they distilled this down to seven languages. And I think it was in a conversation with her husband at the time who said, you know, what if we were able to do this for individuals? What if we were helped? We were able to help people understand leveraging what makes brands fascinating. What if we were able to make them understand what makes them fascinating? And when you fascinate somebody in a world that's filled with, you know, distractions, if you think about. How much time you have to capture someone's [00:23:00] attention. It used to be nine seconds. I think it might be down to three, you know, or two and a half. Yeah. And so if you're going, but when you fascinate somebody, you know, between. Competition. If you're in a business and you've got to get someone's attention, you're trying to get a prospect's attention in a world where commoditization, which is, you know, everything is the same. Think of toilet paper. You go for the cheap. It's a race to the bottom from a price perspective. It's not about value. And then you've got the distractions, how do you get someone's attention? Well, you get their attention by fascinating them. And when they're fascinated, if you think about the times when you're fascinated by something, everything else falls off the planet, you know, and you're totally zoned in and you're focused. And that's what the art of fascination is. But when you can't fake it, This is something you can't fake till you make it right it's, it's innate in you and everybody has one of these. [00:24:00] You know, we all speak these seven languages of the fascinate, um, system or the languages. We all speak them all, but there's two languages and one in particular that when you're speaking that language, you're like in this zone of, I could riff on this all day. I'm in my zone of genius for some people, that's the language of power. And confidence and they come in a room and they just command the room and they, they are the decision makers. And for someone else, it might be about trust and loyalty. They might speak the language of trust, which is that loyal person that, you know, you can always count on others. It's the language of listening and you're that quiet person in the room who's paying attention and people might not think that you're that Even there, like, you know, you're not paying attention and then you drop this bomb of, well, what about this? Because you're analyzing and paying attention to the whole room. And so whatever language you speak, when you're able to speak [00:25:00] that language, you will fascinate those who connect with you on that level. So it creates this deeper connection with people. And by virtue of understanding how you fascinate somebody, Bye. It allows you to be more of who you are, because, you know, you're not trying to be somebody else. You can have the same skills and have gone to the same school, um, and come out, you know, two writers who are equally skilled, but one is going to have a language that is. Is going to connect more deeply with somebody and don't we all want to have a world where we're connecting deeply with people that we get to engage with on a daily basis. So fascinating allows us to do that. Um, and I was so fascinated by it that I actually got certified. Um, because I said, this is part of my toolbox at the time. I was already working on brands and helping businesses build their, their [00:26:00] brands. And for me, being able to bring that to the individual that I work with in a, in a company, it's like, let's understand your language and the language of the people in your team, because. It also helps you create this balance on your team of, you know, you might have somebody who's a really, really good person, really skilled, but if they're in a role where they're not able to speak their language, they might feel like they're in quicksand. You know, alert is the language of details. And for some people that lights them up, the ability to. Cross T's and dot I's and think about the future and think about risk mitigation. For others, it makes them want to gouge their eyeballs out, right? And if you're someone who is in a role that you're passion driven and you need those connections and relationships, but your role requires you to be doing this work that is what we call your, your dormant advantage, your least Engaging and natural language, [00:27:00] you're going to feel like you're, you're in quicksand and you're going to, it's, it's a drains your energy. So why not understand and learn the language that you speak that resonates with other people at the same time. It's going to attract those people to you and you're going to just, you know, you're going to be living a life that feels like you're in a well spring rather than in quicksand. Yeah, totally. Well, as we were preparing for, for the workshop and the podcast, I went back to the, to my tests and I, uh, found out that I first took it in 2014 and back then I was the maverick and I think it was innovation and power. And so, so that was kind of like my first experience with Fascinate and I, and I remember being completely surprised and really realizing. How people see you differently sometimes than you see yourself, [00:28:00] um, because if you look at all the other, um, kind of assessments, the Enneagram and the Myers Briggs, um, so I'm very introverted and very calm and, you know, quiet and, and then I got this word that says power, the maverick. I'm like, what, what is this? Right? This is completely different. And. And yet when I was talking to people, they're like, yeah, that's, that's how we see you. We see you as someone who creates new things and leads a new way. And I'm like, I guess, yeah, I like doing that. Right. I just, I needed to kind of make peace with this idea of power and understanding it as something that I can do quietly. Right. Power doesn't need to be loud. It just needs to be kind of like to me, it's a quiet presence, but that somehow still has the ability to lead. [00:29:00] So I remember that for me, that was life changing and just really accepting that role and saying, okay, yeah, if that's what you want me to do, then I'll step into that role and, and kind of come out of the. The shadow, uh, maybe a little bit as well. So, um, it's funny that you mentioned power because I have almost the opposite. So power is my dormant advantage, but the story about how I named my company, when I started the company, I worked with this brilliant person, um, who I had worked with. For years in my corporate role to help me come up with a name for my business. Together we came up because I wanted my whole premise was I want to be able to empower my. clients to be better marketers and to do it their way, you know, to find a path that is right for you. You don't have to follow the trends. And so we came up with wheeled marketing, put the power [00:30:00] of marketing in your hands. It's not a bad name, but I didn't do anything. I sat on it for a year and this was all before I knew fascinated, didn't know anything about fascinating, but I sat on it for a year. It didn't design a logo. Didn't didn't build a website. Didn't do anything with the name because there was something in my heart that was like, it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right. And I did my fascinate. Test. And in my fascinate test, you know, my number one language is passion, which is the language of relationships and connection and intuitiveness and my, and I'll bet, you know, then you've got this waiting of all of seven languages will my dormant, which is my least powerful, um, or effective communication is power. And. I, and I really struggled with this because power, I was a leader in my, in my role for eight and a half years in my last role. I'm like, but I am a leader. [00:31:00] And then I realized power is about that natural ability to come in and dominate a room. And whether you do it quietly or loudly and, you know, making decisions quickly and, and I realized the reason I had been struggling with wield wield is a word that. Is all about power and it didn't sit well in my heart, but I didn't understand why until I did fascinate and as a result of that, I'm like, that's not the name of my company. Then that can't be the name of my business. And so I really did some soul searching and digging and wanted to really bring that that as an HSP and an introvert myself, I wanted to bring that light that shines inside of us and allow people to bring that out. And so I changed the name of my company to the firefly. Effect because the firefly is that is that beautiful little glow that sits inside everybody and the firefly effect because I wanted. To simulate the [00:32:00] butterfly effect where, you know, one little firefly can't maybe doesn't make a big difference, but imagine a whole field of fireflies and how beautiful is that? And so it's, it's about the culmination of bringing, bringing joy and bringing a voice. To everybody and doing it in their own authentic way. So that's where the firefly came from. And I have fascinated to some degree to thank for that. Yeah, but that's what it does for for 1, right? It really helps us with, uh, these words that we can then bring into our marketing. Because like I say in marketing, like we're human because we want to bring more of us to our marketing. So when people ask me, well, how do we learn to be authentic in marketing? Well, there's not like a seven step list, uh, where you can learn that it's, it's going into that deeper inner work. And probably part of it is, is, um, yeah, learning more about these seven languages and then bringing. More of that language [00:33:00] into your messaging. And, um, yeah, that's what we're going to talk about in this workshop on February 7th. So if you're listening to this and this resonates, we'd love for you to join us. Then you can go to the link humane. marketing forward slash workshop and sign up there. Um, I want to wrap up with a question that I feel like is really timely. Because we're talking about authenticity, right? In a time where AI has just developed like crazy over the last, let's say, 9 months. And we know as a fact, it's not going anywhere. Like, well, it's not leaving anytime soon. It's definitely going to develop. So how does something like, Oh, Knowing deeply who we are and, uh, having this language that helps us stand out. How does that help us in a time, um, where, you know, everyone else is using AI and chat GPT. [00:34:00] How can we tap into that system more to, um, yeah, feel like we're being authentic and standing up. That's such a great question. And, you know, building authentic brands is such a big part of what I do. And, um, and, and I'll be honest, I have leveraged AI. I've wanted to learn. I'm like, I need to understand. What everything, you know, all the hype, I need to understand, you know, so that we're not left behind, but I don't use AI to do my writing. I don't use AI to, um, put words in my mouth. What I use AI for, frankly, is to. Um, is to help me do what I don't do as well. So for instance, dice, you know, distilling when I have a great conversation with a client, I can record it on my otter, put it into AI. And help have AI help distill that [00:35:00] down to what are those key points so I can be more present and not feel like I have to take a million notes in a conversation because I'm capturing it and I'm going to leverage AI to help me create, you know, what are these talking points that I need to make sure that I'm including in our, you know, in the brand work or, or. Whatever work I'm I'm working on for that client. So I think there is a way to find out, you know, to leverage the tools that are at our disposal. And I is another tool. The challenges when you're looking at somebody. At somebody's work, it's going to become more evident. In time, and I, you know, that. It's a generate like that. It doesn't feel authentic. It's going to A. I is only pulling from what's already out in the Internet, right? It's not creating something that's from your heart. And so it comes down, I think, to trusting yourself and feeling confident that you're not. It's [00:36:00] not about FOMO. It's not about, um. Looking at, looking around the room and seeing, you know, what am I missing out on? I need to jump on this trend. I need to jump on this trend. I need to be on social media and posting six times a week or five times a week. I don't, I, that I've realized that that for me is, you know, is leveraging what I feel confident and know in my heart based on my languages that I speak, how I'm going to fascinate someone. And trusting that process, I'm still going to leverage and look at it as a tool in my toolbox for myself. And then you have to be discerning when you're looking at other people and trust that the right people are going to find you because authenticity. It's an untapped or an unnamed or a, you know, it's a language that we speak. And when you're being authentic, people [00:37:00] feel that they feel the vulnerability. They feel, they feel the connection. Um, and I think you just have to trust that, that, that that's going to. You know, leverage the tools where they make sense, be, be discerning. And, um, because AI, you're right. AI is not going anywhere. So yeah, I'm finding a way to make it, to bring it into what I need in a way that feels in alignment with my own values, right? I'm not going to use it to do all my writing because it doesn't feel authentic. And, and it would feel disingenuous for me to leverage AI and have it write everything I need to write for myself. Yeah, there's, there's. Something to be said about written text. That's what we use it for or what it's used for right now. But, um, what I feel like this work with Fascinate and knowing your languages also helps us become more [00:38:00] authentic, right? Because we then really tap into who we truly are and embrace that. Side of us where before we're just kind of pulled into every direction. Oh, I should, you know, kind of do whatever selling like they're doing it. And then I'm doing a little bit of this and and it's, it's helping us understand. Oh. No, there, you know, I can really truly be by, be myself, um, when you show up with clients and when you kind of step into that, uh, true version of yourself, I feel like the writing, okay, that's part of it, but it also just helps with the human and how you're going to show up with your clients, right? There are so many of my clients that at the beginning of. A workshop that I would have done with them and they get their assessment and they're like, well, it says that I'm, you know, I'm this, but I'm not this, you know, my one person's [00:39:00] passion was her dormant. And she's like, the name of my company is literally passion, you know, consulting or something. And I said, we went through the process and what I, what she understood was it doesn't mean you're not passionate. And it doesn't, you know, we have a preconceived notion of what these words mean, but when we unpack it, which we do, we unpack it all in, in the, in the workshops that we do, you learn that and you, and we dive into the stories of your life where you start to see that pattern. Of where this has been true. So it's not just words on a page. It actually are. We go back and we look and validate. And at the same time, it helps to provide this beacon for you. We create an anthem. Um, you know, that helps guide you and helps explain to people what you do in a really short like two words. My anthem. After going through this process is illuminating visions and it, and for me, [00:40:00] it's what it's in my e signature. It's everywhere, but it, it has become. When I looked at my past, what lights me up and what excites me are these moments when I've been able to bring somebody else. You know, we have an idea. We bring it to life. We launch a brand. We've, we launch a new product. We, so those are the things like that. Innovation is my why. The passion is, is the, is the, what I, you know, what I do and how I do that is by listening. It's my mystique. It's the listening. So when I understood that about myself, now it helps me to choose and to be selective about what I do going forward. I call it. A bit of a, it's a warm hug and a kick in the gut all at the same time, because it's like, yeah, this is who I am. And it becomes my guide to make sure that I stay on my path and I don't get distracted by these shiny objects along the way. So yeah. And the, and the moments in that I've seen people's, like the lights go on and kind of go.[00:41:00] Oh, you mean this is already who I am. And for some people saying those words feels very egotistical at first, because it's like, well, I can't say that about myself that. And then when we dive in deeper, it's like, but it's already how the world sees you. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt about the power. Right. It's like. Oh, but I'm very humble. You know, I grew up very in, in this humble environment. I'm like, ha, I can't say that . But, um, it's like, well, yeah. You know, it's like not me. It's to other people who are seeing it that way. So, yeah. Yeah. And, and that's why I feel like truly yes, ai, you know, is, is part of our path and the direction we're going. And I, I actually feel. There's a very positive side to AI and I'll be writing about that in the, in the business like we're human book, because I do feel like creates more spaciousness for actually [00:42:00] being human and that's part of this. Right? It's like, well, because we have AI for the mundane things, we can then focus on. Actually spending time on figuring out. Well, what is my fascinate language? How can I tap into that and be real? Because that's what we care about is having real conversations with real humans and taking the time to to be human. So I feel like there's a world possible with both being very authentic. And having AI, uh, as, as the, as a tool, like you said, I agree. I think when we have the confidence that, you know, who you are, the tools and all of these other distractions become just that it's a tool that you can add to your toolbox, learn how to use it in a way that feels. Authentic to you that helps you in your business that, um, you know, [00:43:00] saves time, saves energies, you know, and I'm, you know, I'm definitely in that camp where it is a tool and it's a tool that when we use it well, to your point, you end up with this freedom of time. Because something that might've taken me, you know, an hour and a half to distill and go through, I can get it done in 10 minutes now. Right. I can get to that point where I needed to get to in 10 minutes. And then I still apply who I am as an individual, my authentic self to bring that spin or the, you know, the, the, the necessary kind of finishing touches or whatever you want to call it so that it isn't just a cut and paste. You know, it's helping me think of it. I'm thinking of it as another virtual assistant. I actually think it will help a lot of small businesses, especially because, you know, you can do the roles of a number of different people. [00:44:00] So, yeah, I'm so excited. I, uh, um, I really am also excited about this workshop that we have coming up. And what I also feel like we always do well in these collab workshops is that there's part teaching, you know, you're going to share all of your wisdom about the fascinate system. And we also always create space for being human and having these. Exchanges in the breakout rooms. And I think that's really also a big part of the learning, right? It's like, well, actually apply this now and have a conversation about how you are different or how do you feel you're different. So really, really looking forward to that, um, February 7th. Embodiment of of it and that collaboration that that you foster in the humane marketing circle is, is really brilliant because it allows people to take their take your guard down.[00:45:00] This is a, you know, this is a real humane group of people who are all gathered because we have a very, um, similar approach. To life, you know, not just work, but life. And this is one aspect of it that, um, it's freeing. It's, um, you know, it is, it is really like giving yourself permission to be more of who you are. And Sally has this theme that runs throughout that I absolutely love, which is different is better than better, you know, when you think about it. You already, you know, be more of who you already are, because that's what's going to make you feel good. And it's what's going to attract the people who appreciate that beauty that you bring to the world and that uniqueness. Um, and, you know, it's like, give yourself permission to be that person. So. Can't wait. Thank you so much for sharing here on the podcast. And again, if you're listening to this before February 7th, [00:46:00] definitely sign up and we look forward to seeing you there and we'll look forward to it. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you, Louise. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you got some great value from this episode. Make sure to find out more about Louise and her work at FireflyEffect. ca. And of course, for even more value, join us for the workshop on February 7th at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. The suggested price is 27. But you can also just make a donation and if you like the people and style of this gathering, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? That's how we roll. You can find out more at humane. marketing. com forward slash circle. You'll find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 1. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free [00:47:00] offers, the Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books. Marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:48:00] [00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00] [00:52:00] [00:53:00] [00:54:00] [00:55:00] [00:56:00] [00:57:00]

Welcome back to the Humane Marketing podcast with me, Sarah Santacroce, where we support a business approach that resonates with today's conscious clients through humane, ethical, and non-pushy practices. In this special solo episode, I thought I'd reintroduce myself and share a bit more about who I am. The whole human. So I share a little bit about my personal self but also talk about my work and specifically my different offerings, including my 1-on-1 Conscious Business Coaching, my programs and our Humane Marketing Circle community. I'll also offer a sneak peek into my upcoming third book around the topic of Being Human in Business. Let's embark on this journey together, creating a space where business thrives with heart and soul. Points I talk about: Who I am, personally and professionally The three main focuses in my life's work (my 1-on-1 coaching, my programs and our community) The 3rd book about Business Like We're Human The direction of this podcast this year And much more... Ep 180 transcript Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded. Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop. To hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at Humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and Sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Welcome back, friends, and happy 2024, may it be filled with many small and many big significant moments, moments of laughter, inspiration, and lots of magical Little moments, today's conversation fits under the P of personal power of the seven P's of humane marketing. And if you're a regular here, well, thanks for being back in 2024. You [00:03:00] already know that I'm organizing the conversations here around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if this is your very first time here. Big warm welcome, then you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's humane. Dot marketing forward slash the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business to create this marketing foundation that is ethical and aligned with your values. So, I thought I'd use this first episode of the year to do a solo episode and maybe a bit of a reminder about who I am and what I stand for. Some other podcasters have done that [00:04:00] and reminded me to do it. So since I usually have interviews, right yeah. Yeah, it's not my favorite thing to talk about myself, but here I am. I I'm looking forward to sharing a little bit about my work, a little bit about me as a person. And then also at the end about the next book that I'm currently working on or nudging myself to work on. I have to be honest. It's, it, the outline is more or less there, but I haven't started writing yet. So that's the plan for this episode. I'll also give you kind of a heads up of what's coming for the podcast. Some of you may already know me a little bit from reading my books, marketing like we're human or. Selling like we're human or maybe you're even a member of the Humane Marketing Circle community. And that's definitely the place where I. I just show up as my, you know, [00:05:00] true self, and you definitely then know quite a bit about me. If so, well, then you know that I'm a Swiss born, but global citizen mother of two young adult boys, I'm an empath, and I bring a unique blend of perspectives to the table. So on the. Personal side, I'm an INFJ. So that's from the Myers Briggs, right? I'm very introverted, but I'm also very people oriented. That's what the last two letters stand for. So I call myself the mama bear of our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. And I would say that has to do with the INFJ. So I feel very. caring and empathic towards the members of the community and my clients and anybody that I, I come across. So while I'm introverted and I need a lot of [00:06:00] recharging the batteries time, I also very much enjoy people, especially people who have put up their hand and said, Hey, I want to be, you know, in your inner circles. I want to be spending more time with you. So INFJ, I'm also an. HSP, so that stands for highly sensitive person, and that is a character trait. And I was so relieved when I found out that that's just how I'm wired. I experienced the world more deeply. I feel a lot, and that can sometimes be quite honestly, a bit of a pain because, well, yeah, it's, it's. It's not always easy to feel everything, to feel a room, to feel the energy of the world in general. And then of course, especially feel the, the energy of my close people, my family, but also my clients. So while it comes with a lot of good things, such as A lot of intuition and [00:07:00] just knowing what people need and all of that. It also has some of the things that sometimes keep me from sleeping or keep me from just tuning out those kind of things. So I already said I'm an, I'm an introvert. So those three things really yeah. Kind of describe me. Well you know, we sometimes have this. Kind of thought about not wanting to use labels, but I feel good about these three Acronyms INFJ, HSP, and Introvert. They, they fit me. So I really use both my creative intuition as well as my practical wisdom to make a difference in the business world. I'm also a Capricorn from the astrology side. So very, very practical, very pragmatic, very down to earth. And I'm a cancer rising. So again, that's the care. That's the, the motherly aspect. That's [00:08:00] like just, you know, empathic aspect. So I do feel like I have found a way to be in business where, you know, I can really use all of me, all of who I am to bring all of that to, to what I'm offering. So. Besides that, I'm also very interested in all kinds of different woo woo things, such as, I mentioned it, astrology, I got introduced to it through my mom, who still does a reading for me each year at my birthday. She just kind of studied it as a, as a side thing. She was an astrologer, and that's kind of the same approach I have. I don't feel like I want to go and study astrology but I do want to understand it for me, for my close people, my family as well as my clients. It always helps me when they tell me, you know, what, which birth sign they are. And also human [00:09:00] design, because that's the next thing that I discovered and just really loved it. And I use that as well in my programs, the Marketing Like We're Human program, as well as my one on one clients to help them discover their own personal power. Personal power is the second P of humane marketing, where we really figure out, well, how are we wired so that we can find our own unique way of, business, but also just in general, how to be in business. I've always practiced yoga, but since COVID, I really do it religiously every morning. It's become part of who I am. So I start the day with, with that. I love yoga with Adrian for that on YouTube. So if you don't know yoga with Adrian, Have a look at that. It's just she has so many different videos. It's all free. And yeah, I love her style. She's kind of quirky and funny, but it's also very professionally [00:10:00] done. So the sound is good. It's just perfect. So that's what I do in the morning. And then at lunch, I also have a new practice, which is yoga nidra. which is a type of guided meditation, which works better for me than meditation. I tried meditation many years and always felt like I'm doing it wrong. It's not for me. So yeah, guided meditation. So the yoga nidra for just a deep relaxation of the body feels better for me Because I'm so much in my mind, I feel like, okay, focusing on the body and with this guided meditation and yoga nidra is what I found that works for me, right? It's all about finding a practice that works for us. And so if meditation is not. the thing that works, we'll go and find something else. I'm also a big fan of alternative medicines such as Ayurveda, which I've discovered what, [00:11:00] probably three, four years ago kind of going into perimenopause and now menopause, just kind of like finding a different way to look at Our, yeah, our health, our body, our nutrition. So just really loving that approach. And I've always been interested in how other cultures see the mind and the body connection. And so. Yeah, to me, it's just fascinating to follow someone else's approach to medicine, right? Yes, traditional medicine has definitely has saved my husband for once for one and, and, you know, it's, it's doing a lot of good in the world and there's Some things where alternative medicine works just as well. So Ayurveda is one, flowers of Bach is another one that I've also learned from my mom and, and sometimes forget about it. But whenever I think of it, I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm going [00:12:00] to go back to the flowers of Bach. I love essential oils. And yeah, so, so many things I could list here. I'm just all about experimenting and seeing, oh, yeah, that really works for me. So, I also book time in my day, most days, to go for an hour walk outside. I started walking with a dog, not our own dog. We travel, we love traveling too much to own a dog. But I started walking in a dog in, The neighboring town and really love that otherwise once per week I walk with my friend Barbara and another time with another friend. So yeah, really walking and being outside is a big part of me. I'm lucky to live five minutes from Lake Geneva and two minutes from a forest with a little river. So nature really has this healing effect on my Overstimulated mind, which is why I build a lot of spaciousness into my days. I did mention our [00:13:00] boys, but I just. I think it's, it's an important part of my life still, you know, they're 17 and 20. So still very much a mom even though they're now mainly living their own lives, they are still living at home or at least sleeping at home for the older one, Simon. And yeah, it's a big part of my holistic being, right? There's this work side of me, but then there's also the Family side of me, which I, I love that I've over the years built a business that really has the space to be all of me and has the space to have me spend time with the boys as they're I As they were smaller and have them grow up in a home where they come back and I'm on calls and and then can Spend time with them and do homework and all of that. So yeah over the [00:14:00] years that's been really important for me and still is but now they you know, they spread their wings and Need us less and less. So So that's me in a nutshell on the personal side. So on the professional side, I started my first business in 2007, 2008, and have run a LinkedIn consultancy over 12 years. So helping companies and individuals with LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, social selling, LinkedIn profiles. A lot of LinkedIn profile reviews, which I still offer as a service. It's a small LinkedIn profile video review. So a review of someone's profile in video format. And people really love that because it's a. relatively small investment and yet they get my expert advice on their profiles. So [00:15:00] that's something I still do. I also still offer a LinkedIn profile done for use. So someone who wants me to write their LinkedIn from A to Z, that's a service I still offer, but I don't give any trainings anymore, no more workshops. This is all the things that I used to do in companies, but also with individual clients. I did that over 12 years. And then a few years ago, I completely pivoted away from that business. And now I'm doing three main things in the realm of humane marketing. So first The thing that I'm offering is I'm a conscious business coach for changemakers to help them create their life's work and let the world know about it. I also run my two flagship programs, the Marketing Like We're Human program that has been running since 2019 and is coming up again in March 2024. It's a program for heart centered entrepreneurs [00:16:00] and changemakers to create their marketing foundation. And then a new program I launched last November. For the business book alchemist program for renegade authors to help them write their change making book. So a book about change. I won't be running that one again until November. So it's kind of an end of the year program. And then I'll basically create a community, a small community group, an accountability group to really stay accountable and help each other write the book during their year. So if you have a book in you keep that in mind for this November, which seems very far right now, since we just started the year, I do also work with clients one on one on their book together with that. program that I've created a video program for. So if you're in a hurry and would like my one on one support, then that's [00:17:00] something we can look at as well. So that's the Business Book Alchemist program. And then finally, I also host our community, the Humane Marketing Circle, which is a think tank for humans who want to market their business. And I tell you a bit more about that in a minute. So my clients and members on, of the community always say that I give them permission to be themselves in their business. And I really think that's true. There are no masks in our community and we really are being real and as the. Mama bear of our group. I lead and show up with vulnerability and share my own struggles so that it creates that safe space to, to be real. And people really appreciate that because I guess there's so much. Unrealness out there in the world that it feels like a safe haven to, to come to and, [00:18:00] and learn together and share about marketing like we're human. I love to work with change makers who are somehow involved in this paradigm change that we're currently in. So for me, there is really no more business as usual. If I hear someone say business as usual, I just cringe, or if I just. See LinkedIn posts about business as usual. I was like, no, you gotta wake up. There is no more business as usual. We are the ones that we've been waiting for. So this is the time that to not do business as usual anymore. Because yeah, we are the change makers. We have so much. Need for change right now. So many, so many systems that need to be changed and also just our own relationship to business and work. And I'll tell you more about that when I talk about the book. So as you know, I chose to [00:19:00] focus on changing and revolutionizing the way we market and sell in our businesses, but to me, that is just. My focus, right? Because that's the field I know best, but in all honesty, it's much bigger than that. And I'm really deeply interested in a complete systems change. So if we're going to save this planet and our humanity, then we need to stop doing what we've done until now and start reinventing business. Maybe we don't even call it business anymore because. Business reminds me of capitalism, and that is one system that is broken for sure. So in my one on one work, I support change agents who are aware of this paradigm shift and contribute to it with their work. So either by working with individuals or with companies, this could be organizational change work, or [00:20:00] leadership work, or mindset work, or climate oriented work. Sustainability work, right? Or working in some other way to help humanity, but it all has to do with change from within. So if you know the seven Ps of humane marketing, you can see how Inner change is very aligned with my framework because in humane marketing, we also start with ourselves. Another framework that starts from within and that I've started to get involved in locally and globally are the inner development goals. So they are the skills that have been kind of, I guess, with collective intelligence gathered to. Achieve the Sustainable Development Goals in a workshop called Humane Marketing for Changemakers. I've integrated this framework with my approach to humane marketing. [00:21:00] And if you know or run a community who would be interested in having me teach this workshop, please reach out to me. I'd love to come and teach that for free. So yeah, just kind of like looking at change that we need. And the other thing is that we need to think about what is it outside, right? That we need in our world as a thing that we need to change within ourselves first. So as you can tell, personal development is, is like a big thing for me having gone through it myself, then writing about it in the Marketing Like We're Human book, then applying that in the Marketing Like We're Human, aka the Client Resonator program, and also Very much practicing it with my one on one clients. It is the thing that we need right now in order to create outer change. Is this inner change first? So yeah, I love helping change makers, finding their messaging and sharing their gifts. And [00:22:00] often they are people like myself who find themselves at a pivotal point, either coming out of a corporate job or. pivoting in their own business because they feel the calling to contribute to the paradigm shift. So they feel like they've just been running a business as usual kind of business for the last few years and feel like they need to Step into something bigger because now is the time now is the time to really use the gifts that they've been given in order to contribute and make a bigger change, realizing that business as usual, given all our current challenging is just not for them anymore. So that's the one on one work that I love doing. So let me talk a little bit about our community. The community. Humane Marketing Circle, and after that I'll end with some heads up about the topic of my third book that [00:23:00] I'm currently working on and what I'm going to be sharing on this podcast as well. Actually, instead of me talking about the circle, our community, let me read you the most recent testimonial I've received from a member, Katica. I haven't had time yet to put it up, but I'll read it here. So she says, I stumbled into the humane marketing circle seeking a community that resonated with my values and approach to business. What I found was beyond my expectations. It's a gathering of diverse souls, each bringing unique expertise and perspectives. Here, it's not about hosting workshops by renowned experts. It's about sharing. Learning and growing together. The co creation aspect is remarkable. It's not just about attending events, but actively participating in shaping them. The recent Humane Marketing Circle Expo was a testament to this collaborative spirit. It's not just about self [00:24:00] promotion. It's about lifting each other up. What truly sets this circle apart is the emphasis on people. Not just, not just as members, but as individuals with stories, experiences, and knowledge to share. Being highlighted in the podcast wasn't a mere promotional tactic. It was an acknowledgement of our expertise and the celebration of our unique journeys. The value here is immense. It's not just about. Collaboration for events, but the organic growth and visibility that stem from it. The environment allows for organic networking and more importantly, it fosters a culture of ethical marketing where pushy tactics have no place. I've barely scratched the surface and already I've delved into topics like HSP, human design and referral marketing. All things to engaging with this community. What's truly special is that all members here are aligned with. in values, creating a [00:25:00] harmonious space where ethical marketing is the norm. The Humane Marketing Circle isn't just a community. It's a safe haven for like minded individuals to grow, learn, and make a difference in business, one conscious step at a time. I think that really sums up nicely what our community is like. There's about 40 of us right now. And while we'd love to grow, we are also Making very sure that the quality of the relationships doesn't suffer, because that's what we're most proud of, a community that is interrelated. Every active member has ties to other members, not just me. So, if this is the kind of community you'd love to get involved in, in this year, 2024. Learn from, and also share your experience with. We'd obviously love to have you. I'm currently redesigning a new landing page for the community with some different longer term pricing options. But right now you can still [00:26:00] join us at humane. marketing forward slash circle at the monthly rate of 37 per month. And, yeah, we'd love to have you. And finally, let me share some of my thoughts around this third book that I'm planning to work on this year. I've always had plans to have three books, so the marketing, the selling, and the business in general. That's kind of how my website was set up as well, with the three different colors. Marketing is green, selling is earth red, and business is blue. So, this third book is about business and work in general. Right now, the working title is something like Being Human and Running a Business, or just Business Like We're Human, to follow from the other two titles. And the subtitle for now is The Changemaker's Path to Redefining Our Relationship to Work and Finding Inner Peace to [00:27:00] Create Outer Change. So yeah. No more business as usual. Basically, I'll be writing about redefining business and work so that it doesn't define us, but we define it. And our work contributes to our own conscious well being and the well being of our planet. That's what I feel like work should be for and topics are going to be including how we got here, like the story from basically starting in the industrial revolution to today and kind of like highlighting, well, you know, What's wrong with that today? It might've worked back in the industrial revolution, but, you know, we have evolved, our consciousness hasn't evolved. And yet we are still defined by the way we think about work. From back then. Another topic is [00:28:00] reimagining a different way of making a living or making a life. Creating more spaciousness to be and to focus on things that truly matter to ourselves but also to the collective. The path to recalibrate our relationships and work so that we are ready for the new way of doing business like we're human. And then also tackling the topic of What AI has to do with all that. So artificial intelligence, how does that have or impact the way we work and how us humans can use AI to help us so that we can work less and be more human. And actually focus on taking care of our world and each other. So collaborating with I, instead of saying, well, no, that's just not human. So it's not good. Humans, our [00:29:00] main reason for being is not to work. We made that up in the Industrial Revolution, right? So what is our main reason for being human or what makes us human? So big questions like that. And I'll share some bonus episodes here on the podcast with updates of what I'm writing, conversations I'm having, and and more. And in addition to those bonus episodes, I'll also keep my usual schedule of two episodes per month. So one on a business and marketing topic and another one with a change maker I personally want to learn from. And I'm sure you'll be inspired as well. So yeah, that's what I have for today. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping a future where business is a force for good, where we market and sell like we're human. You can find out more about anything that I've shared [00:30:00] here on my website at humane dot marketing. If you want to find out more about the community, that's humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And you find the show show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M 1 8 0. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself. Your clients and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:31:00] [00:32:00]

In this episode, we sit down with Sarah Santacroce, an experienced LinkedIn consultant who has transitioned into a conscious business coach. Sarah discusses the importance of empathetic and kind business practices, advocating for a more humane approach to marketing. Drawing on her extensive experience as an author, podcaster, and coach, she challenges the traditional norms of marketing and offers fresh perspectives on how businesses can align their marketing strategies with their core values. Listeners will gain valuable insights into transforming their business approach and learn effective, yet gentle marketing techniques.Check out Sarah's links here:Her one pager she mentioned! https://humane.marketing/1pageHer Book "Marketing Like We're Human" https://sarahsantacroce.com/start-here/https://sarahsantacroce.mykajabi.com/businessbookalchemisthttps://humane.marketing/the-humane-marketing-community/https://humane.marketing/marketing-like-were-human/Show Notes:Introduction to Sarah Santacroce and her journey from LinkedIn consulting to conscious business coaching.The need for empathy and kindness in today's business landscape.Sarah's perspective on redefining traditional marketing methods.How businesses can align their marketing strategies with their core values.Practical advice for implementing a more humane approach to marketing.Sarah's experiences and success stories as a coach, author, and podcaster.Episode Summary:Join The Influence Army Waitlist HERE!Email me: contact@belove.mediaFor social Media:      https://www.facebook.com/MrMischaSubscribe and share with your business associates who could use a listen!

In this week's episode, I chatted with Dr. Renée Lertzman, a renowned psychological researcher shaping climate change action through psychology and sustainability. We discussed the theme 'Becoming' and its impact on societal shifts towards sustainable practices and also explored the transformative power of personal change for a more humane business world and the vital role of community in this journey. Renée shared challenges faced by leaders guiding transformations and her nuanced approach to caring in Humane Marketing. In this episode, Renée and I talk about: How do personal transformations contribute to a better, more humane business world for everyone? Why is being part of a community important for personal and collective positive transformations? What challenges do leaders face when guiding others through transformative journeys? In Humane Marketing, caring means more than just concern. Renee explains her approach to caring. And more insights for our listeners who are Changemakers before they are marketers Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. Dot marketing. Hello and welcome back Humane Marketers to this last episode in 2023. Today I'm speaking to Rene Lertzmann about the P of personal power. If you're a regular here and you've been with me all of this time this year, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here and you don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing [00:03:00] plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of Marketing at humane. That's the number one and the word page and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. It really is that one page marketing plan where you. Reflect deeply about all the different P's in your business. Today's conversation, as I said, fits under the P of personal power. And I speak to Renee Lertzman about the topic of becoming. So let me tell you a bit more about Dr. Renee Lertzman. She's an internationally recognized psychological researcher and thought leader. Working to make an impact on climate change with tools that organizations can use to engage, mobilize, and connect with diverse populations. By blending scientific approaches into strategies that will be [00:04:00] impactful on the environmental challenges, Rene shows that combining the disciplines of psychological Psychology with environmental science can aid in the path of big changes. A native of Northern California, Renée has had more than 20 years of experience as a pioneer, bridging psychological research and sustainability. She integrates behavioral social Social and Innovative Design Sciences to Create a Dynamic Approach to Social Change. She holds a Master's Degree in Environmental Communications from the University of North Carolina and a PhD from the Cardiff School of Social Sciences at Cardiff University, UK. In our conversation today, we talked about how do personal transformations contribute to a better, more humane business world for everyone? Why is being part of a community important for personal [00:05:00] and collective positive transformations? What challenges do leaders face when guiding others through this transformative journey? In humane marketing, caring means more than just concern. And Renee explains to us her approach to caring. And there's also more insights for our listeners who are change makers before they are marketers. So let's dive in and listen to this episode with Renee Lertzmann. Hi, Renee. So good to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Good Renee: to be here. Thank Sarah: you. Um, um, yeah, humane marketing and becoming, uh, all of these topics that you talk about in your work are very much in line with what we're talking about here, this idea of marketing from within. Um, so really starting with ourselves. So, [00:06:00] um, how do you see these personal transformations on this? Individual level, then translating into something that is bigger, you know, that is part of the collective and maybe even the business part, um, let's dive right in there. Renee: It's a small question. Um, well, that's a profound question that I experienced to be, uh. You know, innately, it takes me into the terrain of psychology, which is, you know, obviously my training and my background, um, which is the, the psyche. Um, how do we, um, process, you know, uh, information, our experiences in ways that. Um, can support our ability to act in new and different ways. Um, so I guess I would just say that [00:07:00] there and I mentioned this in my Ted talk where, um, there's no way around it. You know, that there's no way around the inner and the outer and I remember giving the talk on stage and ad libbing a little bit, which you're not supposed to, but I remember making this statement that said, basically, um, our inner world and our inner life is directly influencing how we are in the world and what we do. And then I made this comment, I'm sorry, but there's no way around it. And that is to say, you know, we'd like to think that we can do a lot of work in the world, um, you know, by focusing on our actions or, you know, um, our tactics, our strategy, but in actuality, as you know, um, everything we do is an expression of our [00:08:00] inner world and ourself, which is obviously influenced by, You know, um, our social context, our geography, our demographic, our personal biography, our circumstances, our proclivities, our personality, um, our inherent kind of essence, all of that is, is coming together. Um, and the work, you know, the, the, the work in the world of, you know, ushering in and supporting life. Affirming and life supportive systems for the planet. Um, I see relying on our ability as human beings to, um, level up to, to become more conscious, to become more, um, capable of coming from a place of intention and choice versus unconscious [00:09:00] habits. Defaults, um, fear, you know, all of that. So my reframe that I encourage is that the circumstances that we're facing in our world is an opportunity. It's an invitation and in a lot of ways, a requirement for us as human beings to, uh, evolve. Um, and, and by that, I mean, really, really evolve into our, like, higher selves, our highest good, the higher part. That humans are capable of, that's how I see it. So, you know, unless we put attention and intention to our own wounds, our own trauma, our own, um, stuff that each human being has, we all have it, you know, there, there, [00:10:00] those that has to be side by side with how you show up with a team as a leader, with your marketing strategy. Because if there's, you know, whatever is there will come through. So if I'm coming from a place that I've learned the hard way, if I am coming from a place of fear, of, um, you know, anxiety, of depth, of scarcity. Even a beautifully designed campaign somehow that will come through and so it's sort of on me to practice diligence around that. Yeah, I love Sarah: that. And you work a lot in the sustainability field and that applies there, right? That you have to first do this inner work in order to then help the other and help. [00:11:00] Organizations, you know, pay more attention to climate crisis and et cetera. Um, and it applies like you just demonstrated also in a business and marketing sense, because when I 1st looked at marketing, um. Well, when I had my own little crisis and said, well, I can't do this anymore. There's just no integrity in this. Um, I looked at how marketing is usually presented as something outwards, right? It's out there and you just have to somehow fit into that mold in order to be that person that you're supposed to be, um, in this marketing realm. And, and that I just realized, well, that is not working for me anymore. It has to be, uh, according to who I am and my worldview and my values. And so the kind of like the, the consciousness that, um, needs to evolve is also needs to happen on the marketing, [00:12:00] um, side. Especially because I think so much that we see out there is, you know, people have gotten such a bad experience with marketing. Everything is lies. We can't trust a marketer. And so the people who are then kind of went to authentic marketing. Uh, we still realized, well, not everything that they say is authentic marketing was actually authentic because they hadn't done that in their work, right? So it, it really, I see these parallels between also what you talk about this anxiety and scarcity. Well, yeah, if we come from this scarcity mindset that we feel like, well, there's not enough, I need to hustle to get these clients, clients feel it. Renee: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's where the inner work comes in. You don't, you can't just will yourself or say, okay, I'm going to not do that anymore. You have to really, um, cultivate the conditions somehow [00:13:00] to, to, um, Explore and be with what is happening for you and ideally have support, some resourcing to do that. Um, the only thing I would just say is I don't think it's like we have to do the inner work first before we do work in the world. It's it's it's they, they are inseparable and I get kind of tired of this, you know, binary, well, binaries in general are still very alive and active out there. Right. Hope versus despair. Um, you know, inner versus outer. Um, it's, it's like, that's just not how reality is. And so when, when people, when our stakes are high and we're under stress, that's precisely when we tend to go into binary thinking. Right. And so it's just important to recognize that. Um, it's not the inner or the [00:14:00] outer. It's not inter first, then outer, you know, and again, this goes back to what we already know, whether you look at neuroscience or whether you look at trauma research, or whether you look at contemplative practice, um, that it's, it's, there's a lot of healing that is available. By the act of doing and, and engaging with some sort of practice, like writing something or doing something in the community or launching a business. Right? That's literally grist for the mill for our learning and practice and development. So, you know, me doing my work with clients, you know, it's, it's an opportunity to grow always. It's a, it's a. That that is the work that is the practice, you know, Sarah: I feel like oftentimes the people who come to me, they had to go through the things that are not working for them in order to figure out, well, this is not working for me [00:15:00] anymore. And so now I'm ready for a different way. Yeah, I feel that's often the case Renee: right that's what that is the human experience I think. Yeah, there's just no shortcuts. Yeah, it's like literally learning by what isn't working and paying attention to this isn't feeling good This isn't working for me. Okay. Now, what does that mean? What do I want to do about that? I could stay there or I can you know get in touch with where my desire is where my Joy is where I feel Energy and called towards, but we can only get there. Unfortunately, by the pain of this is not feeling good. This is not working. I'm having a crisis. I need to leave my job. I need to quit this industry. I might need to move countries, you know, I'm, I'm like, like, there's usually people get to a certain point where they're just like. The, the misalignment is too big for me to tolerate right [00:16:00] now, or I have to leave a relationship who, you know, a lot of people are in partnerships where maybe they've come to a place of awakening and the partner or family member isn't there, you know, like that's very real and that happens a lot too. So, you know, I'm, I'm just normalizing. The experience of, oh, this isn't working. Okay. Then what do I need to do differently? And what will support me? Because it's really important. People. Recognize we need support. Um, Sarah: exactly. Let's talk about the support because I remember when I 1st went through my breakdown. I didn't feel like there was people who understood what I was trying to do and what I was even talking about. They're like, what's wrong with marketing? Marketing is fine. You know, this is just how business works. Business is business. And, and I'm like, well, it doesn't have to be, but I didn't feel [00:17:00] like any, anybody understood. Right. Yeah. And so that makes you feel very lonely and wrong. You're constantly questioning yourself. Yeah. And so then slowly. Yeah. I started to change my people. I'm like, okay, well this is not supporting me. Yeah. So, uh, and, and in that workshop that I just followed with you, um, it was a small group of women in change. Yeah. And you, at the be very beginning, you said, this is what matters. Small groups like this is what matters. Right. So, so yeah. What, what is the role of community in this transformation? Renee: Well, um, this is something I. I feel very strongly about and I am starting to write and focus on more and more. In fact, it might end up being my primary focus, which is the role of convening and curation. So my, you know, just to zoom back. I have a project called project inside out, which was started by a grant from the care foundation. [00:18:00] Um, and I was asked to put together some online tools and resources that take a lot of my work and kind of bring it together into some tools that anyone can access and use. And so, in doing that, I kind of formulated this idea that. What we need to be doing is guiding and not driving change. And so it's an attempt to do an intervention. And, um, and so we came up with these guiding principles of guiding, you know, and a, and a main, a primary role of that is to be a convener. And so I, um, the organizations, the clients I work with and more generally. You know, in my kind of work in the world, I'm, I'm basically telling people that if you are an organization, if you have a business, if you have an [00:19:00] enterprise, it's your role now to be more of a convener and together and to take that responsibility very seriously. And that means as a curator, you have to be also attentive to your own, what we were just talking about, like your own development, your own, um, integrity. Because when you're a convener, it's a responsibility, um, but my point is that, um, it's in the context of relationship and usually small groups that a lot of transformation can happen. And so, and I'm not, I didn't just sort of come up with this. This is like, incredibly well established. You know, there's a book called pro social that talks about the research, you know, like, in a very specific way. Like, if you have this number of people, you know, I think it's 8 to 12 people and you bring people together over [00:20:00] duration. Like, you know, we already kind of know this. And I was doing this work in 2001, um, an experiment. Using online dialogue where we put people into small groups online and kind of had them together over time. No facilitation, but we had a certain methodology where people, you know, introduce themselves and, you know, but the, that context was specifically about charged hot button issues, social issues, and it worked like amazingly people did not devolve into fighting because we created these conditions. That enabled people to really listen to each other and be, feel heard and learn and kind of have that exchange. So we already know a lot about what works. Um, so what I'm suggesting is we go back and look at what actually works. To support people through transformation that human societies have been doing since the beginning. [00:21:00] So, again, I'm not suggesting this is anything new. I'm saying that human wisdom practices and, you know, if you look at council, the council and indigenous cultures, and you look at circles and you look at, like, humans have had this practice of coming together in hard times, ideally. Not always it's how functional and healthy the society is to say, Hey, we need to look at what's going on. And then, like, people just naturally need to get together to kind of make sense, debate, argue, you know, have that kind of exchange that can support a different. Way or perspective, but you're also getting a lot of support. So, yeah, it's so Sarah: interesting. Um, if I may, um, just make the parallel again to the business and marketing world, right in business and marketing, everything we ever hear is go big, go scale or go home. And, you know, you need to be an [00:22:00] influencer and then numbers is what matters most. And, and so here you are saying, well, actually. No, not necessarily go back. You know, uh, small is beautiful. Um, more intimate, the deeper the connection. Yeah. And so that Renee: is scalable. It audio1097513299: is Sarah: scalable at the same time. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Renee: Like, I mean, people ask me, well, how do you scale this? It sounds very long and slow and relational. And I, Well, have you heard of the 12 step movement? I kind of think that's very successful and it's very, uh, talk about scale. It's completely global and the methodology is literally Holding space for people to come together and primarily just tell their stories with each other. And then, you know, you've got all the spiritual principles. It's very regimented. It's very structured, but I'm just saying, I'm not saying we all need to have [00:23:00] 12 step groups. I'm saying that small group interactions are scalable if you're a skillful convener. And so any company I'm working with. They're going to know I'm going to recommend this. It's not a surprise. It's sort of like, you know, if you bring someone in and have someone has their thing. It's like, okay, we know pretty much what's going to be recommended. Renee is going to say that. I'm going to say you need to approach your work in an organization by leveraging the people within it. To hold and facilitate small groups. Yeah, I love that. Train people and support people to learn the skills of convening small groups. Yeah. That to me is the number one skill right now that we are needing and that often people don't have. And, you know, if anyone listening is a facilitator, you know how hard it is. And how, uh, like [00:24:00] it really is. Um, a very, you know, nuanced kind of thing, uh, to learn and any, and I believe we can learn it, but in order to be a facilitator, it goes right back to how do we cultivate the capacity, you know, to really be present because the ability to hold space and be facilitator requires that you have to get out of your, you have to step back. You can't dominate. You know, we've all been in settings where people are like. Dominating, they're talking too much. Um, so, you know, that's, that's where I go with this is how do we foster, create the conditions for more people to connect with each other in more intimate ways, but also look at how we can scale that. Sarah: I love that. Yeah. I did a year long program called holding space and it really came from that idea of, well, how do you hold space for yourself? So [00:25:00] that was the first module of. I can't remember, four months or something. And then how do you hold space for others? And, and especially there was also a module, how do you hold space for grief, right? So, yeah. And so do you feel like we kind of met through the inner development goals? Um, do you feel those inner development goals skills help with this idea of holding space for Renee: others? Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean, the IDG is a, you know, it's a very simple, elegant framework that I see as a reminder of what we need to be doing. Right. Uh, being, thinking, relating, acting and collaborating. So, you know, all of those are interrelated because in order to be a skillful collaborator, you need to have being in order to be a skillful thinker. You need, you know what I mean? They all kind of. Relate to 1 another, but, um, to me, the [00:26:00] power of the is mainly as a. In vocation to say, hey, we need to look at our skills as human beings, like how we from a developmental perspective and how you do that. It doesn't matter to me, you know, like, there can be a community literally in Nigeria, which I do know of, and they're doing all kinds of unbelievable work. That's strengthening people's capacity to show up, hold space, but they don't need to call it IDG, you know, it's like, it's basically human wisdom and human practice. Yeah, it really Sarah: is. There's one more topic I'd like to address and it's this idea of caring, um, in humane marketing. I say humane marketing is for the generation that cares for ourselves, our clients and the planet. So what does caring look like for you? Because you seem to have a bit of a nuanced way to caring and it obviously relates to [00:27:00] sustainability as well. So talk to us about caring. Renee: That's a great question. And it is the topic of the book I'm working on right now, which is literally called a field guide for people who care. I love that. So, you know, basically the way I approach care is, um, that care is, our care is a very fragile, it's very fragile and sensitive and sort of, you know, that, that each one of us as human beings. Have profound capacity to care about whatever, you know, about life, about other people, about ourselves, about, you know, animals or plants or, you know, like the expression of care. I think we need to, um, kind of unleash our. Limits on what care is, what isn't, what it [00:28:00] looks like. And the reason why is because I spent 30 years in the environmental sustainability and climate sector, hearing people around me constantly saying, Oh, well, people don't care because if they cared, they would do something about it. And I absolutely disagreed, but I didn't know why. And so that's why I ended up spending all this time doing research and, you know, interviewing people and all this stuff, because I. I suspected that wasn't accurate. And what I found through talking with lots of people around the world is obviously people care very deeply. And I don't care what your condition is. I mean, seriously, I don't care if you are living on the street and you, you are preoccupied with your own basic survival. As a human being, you care about being alive. You care about often, um, others and animals and, [00:29:00] you know, like, so there is a fundamental care that's there that is expressed. Some people care deeply about ocean reefs. Some people care deeply about a microbe. Some people care deeply about. Knitting, I'm just like, whatever, but my point is that if we feel like, you know, there's something that's interfering with our ability to express that care, we will retract it. We will pull it back in and it will kind of go underground or it will get trans trans. It'll get applied in other ways. Like people I would interview in the Midwest United States would tell me all the environmental issues. They cared very deeply about and then they would say, but there's not a whole lot. I can do about it. So I'm going to focus instead on my garden and my family and what I eat, you know, because those things I have control over right now. Does that mean. That that person doesn't care [00:30:00] about the, the water in the region. And so that's where I'm, what I'm saying. We've got to shift our, um, miss. About care, you know, that somehow if you care, you're going to do something about it. The question is, how do we. Unlock and kind of access people's care by affirming, yes, of course we see you and we know that you care very deeply. Now let's figure out how we can help you express that. That as a marketing strategy is the goal. That's it. That is the marketing strategy is literally, it is communicate with people as if they already care. Like that's it. There's my book. There's your campaign. Just go for it. Sarah: I love that. Yeah, it's not assuming nobody cares, but on the, on the opposite, it's assuming they care. And I guess also what you said is like, well, [00:31:00] figuring out what they deeply care about, because when I talk about the SDGs with in programs or things like that, I always say, well, Obviously, yes, they're all important topics, right? We can all agree to that, but not everybody, not each person cares about the same things very deeply. And so, you know, there is this difference also about what we care about, um, more than others. And so, um, yeah, figuring that out and talking to Renee: those ones. The movement has got to get more sophisticated and nuanced right as soon as possible because it's very simplistic right now, and I will just say, especially. Those working in marketing and brand strategy, no offense, but there's just a pervasive way of thinking and working. That's no longer appropriate for the time we're in now, which is that we've got to be more [00:32:00] nuanced and much more attuned. And much more relational to what people care about, why and how and, and just like go right there, which is again, bringing in that, like you just said, like, here's a menu of all the things going on in the world. It might be very overwhelming, but what do you feel most called to? Right. Okay. Well, if you feel called towards animals and their animal welfare, then great. It doesn't mean you don't care about everything else, but you know, it's like, let's. Honor where the energy is. Sarah: Yeah, it's human to want to relate on that human level and not be robots that like everything, right? That care about everything, right? Yeah, I can totally relate to that. Um, you also on your website talk about these, the three A's, which I believe are anxiety. Ambivalence, ambivalence and, and, um, aspiration is it right? So really finding out [00:33:00] what drives people, um, Renee: in their care. Yeah, exactly. Sarah: I, I, uh, I like that a lot. Yeah, Renee: powerful stuff. It's very useful for people who do work in, you know, marketing and brand strategy. Yeah. Sarah: I can't, can't wait for that book. So keep working. Thank Renee: you. Sarah: Wonderful. Well, any last words for people? I always say at the end of each episode, I say, you know, listeners, humane marketers are change makers before we are marketers. So any last words that you would like to share with the change makers that are listening? Renee: Um, Transcribed Well, 1, check out project inside out and my website. Um, so there's Renee Lertzman dot com and then there's project inside out has like tools and it's a little dated right now. So I just want to acknowledge that. Um, but I would check it out. And if you like it and are excited by it, you [00:34:00] know. Get in touch. Um, we're actually looking at how to evolve it into a program, like an actual, like you said, year long program. I would like to evolve it into a year long program for guiding change. Um, and my, my, I guess, you know, I would just say inviting people who identify as change makers to really identify as being guides. And what does it mean to be a guide and really learning about guiding, you know, that it's, you know, what, what does that involve? Um, and, and it's a more powerful way of showing up, but it's also takes a lot of the pressure off you because it's no longer all on you to try to get people to do anything. It's really about how do we enable guide partner. Kind of help contribute to the conditions for people to go there. And then the other thing I would just say is acknowledge that this work can be overwhelming and tiring and sometimes lonely. And [00:35:00] it's really important that. You get the support and connection that you need with nature, other people, whatever that is, um, is really important. Sarah: Yeah, thanks so much. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week, Renee? Renee: Um, I'm grateful that I have, you know, the ability to, you know, live in a place that is safe. And, um, there's nature and, um, yeah, I mean, I'm just grateful for really simple things right now. Mm-Hmm. Sarah: Yeah. Thanks so much for being here and being my guest. This was Renee: to Thank you, . Yeah. I'm grateful for you and for having this conversation. Thank you. Sarah: I hope you [00:36:00] enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it with Renée and got some great value from listening in. You can find out more about Renée and her work at renéelaertsman. com as well as the link projectinsideout. com And if you are looking for this community for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And, uh, we'd love to have you there to have these deeper conversations about the transformation that we're currently finding ourselves in and what it has to do with marketing. You can find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 7 9. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence [00:37:00] mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. Cause we are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

Join me and guest Mark Silver in a deep dive into ethical pricing, dissecting models like "pay what you can" and the intriguing "pay from the heart." Mark, drawing from his new book "Heart Centered Business," emphasizes the crucial elements of transparency, balance, and assertiveness in pricing. The discussion explores ethical selling, treating clients individually, and a holistic, heart-aligned pricing strategy for sustainable business practices. In this episode, Patrick and I talk about his 'pay from the heart' price model as well as: His view on what money is (and it's NOT energy!) How to price ethically The elements of a successful ‘pay what you can' approach Who should adopt these models? Why neediness is not a bad thing Client sovereignty And so much more Ep 178 transcription Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 15. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. Hello and welcome back Humane Marketers to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Pricing and I'm so happy to have a returning guest Mark Silver from Heart of Business and we're going to be talking about Ethical pricing. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your [00:03:00] one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. marketing forward slash. One page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not prescriptive, but really reflective. Everything we do here at humane marketing is questioning our. Assumptions, what we assume and what we think we should be doing in marketing and question those assumptions and then come up with our own ideas. So before I tell you a bit more about Mark, allow me to invite you to a special week of events that is hosted by our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. Expo. We're calling it the Expo because we're exposing many different workshops and events that are all hosted by the members of our [00:04:00] community. It really truly is an unsummit, a different kind of experience that is organized and held by our community. And why an unsummit or what is an unsummit? Uh, it's because it's not just about what you'll learn, but how you'll experience it. Really, we decided that for this event, connection is our guiding star, and we believe in a different kind of learning. One where human connection is just as vital as the knowledge gained. So, our expo is about real conversations. It's shared experiences in a participating atmosphere that emphasizes the power of community. So it's not just about getting in as much content as you can and watching hours and hours of recordings, but really attending live. You can expect workshops, discussions, and connection calls that are aimed at fostering a sense of togetherness. And it's not just about [00:05:00] being passive, but an active member. About sharing, learning, and growing together, the activities range from a LinkedIn profile makeover to doodling for stress relief to data analysis, the human way we have grouped the different offerings into four areas that we believe make up a humane business and they are being. Relating, thinking, and doing. So please join us for free at the humane dot marketing forward slash expo E X P O. And while it's free to join, we'll ask for a small donation to attend the workshops because all revenue goes towards the fundraiser of the first ever real live meeting of our community in Sicily in May, 2024. So I hope to see you at the expo. The link again is humane. marketing forward slash expo and humane is with an [00:06:00] E at the end, humane. marketing forward slash expo. Okay. Back to this week's episode with Mark Silver. Since 1999, Mark has worked with heart centered entrepreneurs to help them realize that Every act of business can be an act of love. Mark is one of the pioneers in integrating real spirituality with the nitty gritty of small business. He founded Heart of Business Inc in 2001. A designated master teacher within his Sufi lineage, he has received his Masters of Divinity. As a coach, teacher, and spiritual healer, he has facilitated. Thousands of individual sessions with entrepreneurs and has led hundreds of classes, seminars, groups, and retreats. His weekly writings and teachings are followed by thousands of people around the globe. A fourth generation entrepreneur prior to heart of business, Mark ran a [00:07:00] distribution business, turned around a struggling nonprofit magazine and worked as a paramedic in the San Francisco Bay area. So in today's episode, we talked about Mark's view on what money is, and it's not energy according to him, how to price ethically, the elements of a successful pay what you can approach, who should adopt these models, why neediness is not a bad thing, client sovereignty, and so much more. So let's dive into this conversation with Mark Silver. Hi, Mark. So good to have you back. Thanks so much for indulging me again and, uh, uh, taking another round and another shot at this conversation. We had some tech issues the first time, so thanks so much for coming  Mark: back. Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness. If I think of all the times I've had tech issues or problems over the last couple of decades. No worries. [00:08:00] Part of it.  Sarah: Thank you. Thanks for being here. So we're hosting this conversation under the topic of ethical pricing. You've been on the podcast on a previous episode where we also talked about pricing, but, uh, a different aspect of, well, part of ethical pricing, which is this, uh, thing that you often talk about, which is pay what you want or pay what you can model. So we'll address that as well, but I feel like we could have easily called this episode the, um, ethical business, uh, episode, because you just wrote a book called Heart Centered Business, right? And so I, I read it and I, I'm going to kind of pick your brain about certain questions that came up for me, if that's okay. Mark: Yeah, I'm delighted. I'm delighted to dig in.  Sarah: Wonderful. So quite in the first pages of the book, you talk about money. And I think if we talk about ethical pricing, well, [00:09:00] obviously we need to talk about money, right? So this idea that often kind of makes it circles in the spiritual realms is this idea of, uh, money being energy and you make a very clear statement that money is not energy. And so I'd love for you to unpack this and explain, uh, yeah, your approach to it and why money isn't energy.  Mark: Yeah, so, um, thank you. It's a, it's a, it's a really good question. So this whole idea that while money's just energy, um, is something that I've seen make the rounds, as you said, in a lot of like spiritual business circles, and it's very often used, I think, as a bit of a, of a bypass, meaning, you know, not really POSITIVE pinpointing. You know, as taking permission to not really look at what's going on. Um, the truth is, it's true. Everything is [00:10:00] energy. Everything is divine at its essence. However, money only exists as money in the physical world. And when something is present in the physical world, it abides by. The, um, constrictions, the restrictions within the physical world, you know, it's like I look out my window and it's, you know, we're moving very close to winter. All the leaves are off the trees. This is not a time to try to plant tomatoes. You know, it's like, it's not going to work. Um, it is a time to plant trees, however. So it's like, Thank you. Because trees need to be dormant in order to over the over the winter. I don't need to get deep into regenerative farming and planting, but I did not know that. So thank you. Yeah. Yeah. You can plant them in the early spring. We could spend the whole episode on trees. I love trees. Anyway, um, so. When we talk about money as energy, it's really important that we're not thinking that that's an excuse [00:11:00] to bypass just being responsible with the, with how it works in the world, you know, it's, you know, there's, we have to pay attention to it. We have to account for it. We have to care for it if we want it to be in our lives. Now, It's also important to say that the economic systems that are in place in this world are extremely unjust there they've been manipulated they've been set up to benefit certain people and to harm others and so it's not like we just want to be. Um, unmindful of questions of justice or ethics or morality when we're dealing with money, but it does behoove us to really open our hearts to dealing with the real world aspects of what is needed to make money work in our lives. [00:12:00] Yeah.  Sarah: What comes to mind is, is the, um, I'm missing the words that, you know, the movement, um, that manifests anything, the, yeah, I can't remember the wording right now, but, but basically this idea of that, you know, if you just wish for it hard enough, then it will appear, um, kind of thing. And I, my. Left brain has just never been a big fan of that idea because it, like, I have a hard time actually understanding it because I, I do believe money is physical as well. So it's like, well, how, how is it just going to end up? And then again, sometimes, yes, you know, it does happen. Some weird circumstances make it, make it happen, but I don't think you can just sit back and. And manifest everything, anything and everything you want.  Mark: Yeah. So, you know, as a spiritual person and someone who's had a wide [00:13:00] variety of experiences in this world, I've witnessed miracles. I've witnessed things happen. Um, you know, You know, the, because the opposite isn't true either. Everything doesn't have to be hard work. You know, again, going back to, um, the land, like, you can set up, um, regenerative agriculture. You can set up permaculture. So the plants care for themselves. You can set up your business. You can set up your money so that it's easier to do. And it's not so much hard work. However, in the physical world, yeah. The physical world is limited and we're asked to care for one another. We're asked, you know, it's like a one person, you know, if we have a pie, somebody takes the whole pie, nobody else gets to eat. Right. We have to, we're here to share and we're here to care for one another. Right.  Sarah: Yeah. So, so if we take this idea of money being physical, so what does that then mean for our ethical pricing? How do we [00:14:00] apply ethical pricing with physical money?  Mark: Yeah, it's a really good question. And I, I looked at it very closely in particular in my industry, um, around business development and business coaching and business training. And I have seen for. For years and years and years and years, I mean, since, you know, 20 years, 23 years, I've been doing this now. I've seen people charge. Very high, very, you know, five figures, you know, 10, 000, 20, 000, um, to offer business training for people that are in the very beginnings of their business building. And when I think about ethical pricing at that level, there is no way that a brand new business just starting to take on. Learning about business is going to be able to generate the kind of income and revenue, uh, that is going to make that kind of investment worthwhile. Um, there's no [00:15:00] way that you can jumpstart. You know, it's like a plant takes what it takes to. To grow i've i've watched you know over the years we've seen really clearly that it takes two to four years for a business to go from creation to momentum if you're really focused on business development it doesn't happen in six months it doesn't happen even in twelve months although you can make a lot of progress and gain. Um, and gain traction there, but so ethical pricing is when the investment is balanced. The price that you're paying is balanced with what a reasonable outcome could be. You know, not, um, the, the home run, you know, people who, who do a variety of programs like to point out the stars. It's like, oh, yeah, they did my program and they quadrupled their income. And now they're making 6 figures easy. And 1, they're often hiding. The background of the person that that got those results [00:16:00] and what we really want to see is but what is the average person because you want someone who's doing a program most people are going to get average results and are those average results which can be great average results are great are they are the average results worth the investment or are you hoping on a lottery ticket that you're going to be the one person that gets the home run. We have to pay attention to that.  Sarah: I think it's all about honesty and talking about results with honesty. Right. And in humane marketing, we talk a lot about this idea of being transparent and honest marketers. And, and so what we usually see is exaggerated pricing with exaggerated results, like the worst of both cases. Right. Yeah. Like, yeah. And, and so, and the sad thing about this is that. Then people start to [00:17:00] expect miracle results, right? And if you as a humane marketer show up and say, I can't promise you 10 clients within 3 months of working with me. Um, then there's like disappointment or they're like, well, this other person promises this and that. And, and so it really feels like we need to have this conversation that there. Is no miracle solution. Yes. I also believe in miracles, uh, Mark, but in terms of business building, especially if you just start out, well, there, you know, the leaps usually happen a bit later, but in the first year, it's very, it's very seldom that you get these leaps. And especially you can't believe that you. Just because you invest 20, 000, you're going to get these leaps, right? That's exactly right. Honesty conversation we need to have. Yeah,  Mark: we do. And the, and the miracles which can come, I've seen people like, you know, they, you know, they, uh, you know, they [00:18:00] suddenly get a slew of clients, but if they don't understand where those clients came from and how to repeat it, then that's not really, you know, that's, that's not really what the, um. That's not really the cause of whatever program you're taking, right? It's like, you can, you can be set up to receive those clients. I've seen people be on the receiving end of miracles, but their business isn't structured to receive people. And then that definitely can create a problem. Like, you know, like, I think of a client, I think of clients who suddenly got big media exposure just because of that. By luck, but then the people that came towards them, they didn't know how to handle that. So, you know, I've worked with clients who say, oh, my goodness, I'm getting this big media exposure happening. It's going to be coming in a couple of weeks. I'm like, okay, let's ABC, like, let's handle these things so that your business is ready to receive whatever comes towards you. But, um, but you, you do need to, um, not. Pinned on [00:19:00] miracles and home runs for your business to work.  Sarah: Yeah. So let's talk about this, uh, idea of the sliding scale. So this, um, kind of accessible pricing in order to serve as many people as possible. That's kind of at the opposite end of the spectrum, right? Um, I do notice myself also, um, after having had discussions with colleagues, Having strong emotions with that scheme as well, because I do feel like, well, if we're selling that as an ideal business model, then that is not necessarily the beginning point for everybody either. Because otherwise you're going to burn out and, you know, if you start by just giving away your stuff for like really cheap pricing, then how are you going to get create momentum? So I'm really curious to, to [00:20:00] hear your thoughts on that.  Mark: Yeah, I think it's really important to understand that most of us. You know, we've been exposed to this, you know, large scale capitalist model, where it's like, we sell a lot for cheap, you know, the, the Walmart or Amazon or whatever model, and it's not healthy, you know, all of the small businesses, micro businesses are boutique businesses, you know, you can't, you can't. You can't sell 10, 000 or 100, 000. It's not realistic that you're going to get there very quickly. It takes, you know, if that's your business model, there's other things that we need to put in place. And we should talk to make sure that's really where you want to go. However, I'm very actually against sliding scale. And my pay from the heart model is significantly different than just a plain sliding scale. What I observed years ago with people using sliding scales was that there were, uh, Two things generally going on. [00:21:00] One was that there was this genuine desire to make their work accessible. Beautiful, beautiful. It's really important. There are people who can't access services, and it's wonderful to see people make attempts to make services available to them. However, what most people who were using sliding skills weren't doing is facing their own money issues. And so. Instead of facing their own money issues and coming up with something that works, they were unloading their money issues on somebody else and saying, Oh, I'm struggling to name a price. So you name a price. And when that works, when that happens, one, people do tend to go to the bottom of the scale. Um, just because. You know, struggling on their own in whatever ways, but, um, what also happens, which people didn't really realize till I started pointing this out to some of my clients was that if someone is struggling with money [00:22:00] issues themselves and everyone in this culture. Is if they have to choose the price they might choose not to buy it all because it's such an emotional struggle between i want to i want to care for myself i don't have a lot but i want to pay what they're worth it's too much to decide i'm just going to leave right yeah exactly exactly and overwhelmed so when we talk about pay from the heart there's a whole structure around it because, you You do need to, you know, I encourage people to really get clear on what your own business needs are and make that really clear to people. You know, we, we've just opened up a new course and, um. And we have, uh, our suggested price and we have a minimum price, and then we have a way for people to pay less than the minimum. But we make very clear that, oh, this [00:23:00] is for people who are going, who are struggling with food or shelter people that are, you know, like, it would do you a lot of harm. This is not just pay whatever's comfortable. Right? Because we need to be supported also. And so it's, it's much more of a collaborative process than just letting people choose whatever it is they want to, whatever they want to pay.  Sarah: Yeah. And I highly recommend we'll, we'll put the link in the, in the show notes page to the initial, the earlier discussion we had was only about that. And what I remember you saying, and I kind of gave this picture to my client of the, the star yoga pose, you know, take up space. I remember you're saying that I'm like, Oh yeah, that's a good way to put it. It's like you need to take up space as well and take up the space to explain things. You know, usually people just say, pay whatever you want. And then, like you said, they usually pick the lowest price. And if you [00:24:00] explain it well, then they'll understand. Um, And that takes you kind of showing up with, with confidence and space. Yeah. Right.  Mark: And we, and we made a mistake with this, um, in that we had launched it and we were way on the generous side. Going, you know, if you're really struggling, you know, et cetera, um, and people were paying below our minimum way more than was sustainable for us. And we're looking at it going, what's going on? And then we looked at our language. We're like, Oh, we're not taking a strong stand. And ever since we've taken a stronger stand, um, kind with kindness and with love and compassion, but including our business in the compassion with one of our offers, um, people really responded. And we really started seeing a market increase people, people care, you know, our clients are adults. You know, if [00:25:00] someone's paying you, they're going to be an adult, even if you work with kids, even if your business works with kids, the people paying you are the adults somehow, and they know that your business needs. You know, that you need to get paid, like, they know that it costs money to access services. And so you're not going to be surprising anyone when you put out what your financial needs are around and off. Right.  Sarah: So, so, yeah, this idea of neediness also comes up. In the book, and I guess that's what you meant by it, right? This, this are that our business has needs as well. And of course, as individuals have needs, but that in this case, neediness is not a bad thing. Um, is there anything else you want to add to that point of neediness?  Mark: Oh, my goodness. So this is a huge spiritual topic. And it's one of the core [00:26:00] things that we like to help people with. And in fact, our one of our flagship courses, the heart of money and power is really at heart about coming into a relationship with healthy neediness. We're all needy. We're all needy. It's this culture that has Told us that neediness is not healthy or not right, but we often aim our neediness in a wrong direction in a way where we're not going to get our needs met. And I'm, I mean, I'm needy. I can't manufacture the air that I'm breathing. I can't create the water that I drink. I can't force food to grow. You know, I'm needy on so many people doing their part in our culture for, you know, to survive. And so. When we can embrace our neediness, then we can be in a healthy relationship with it. We can be appropriate with it. When we try to [00:27:00] shove our neediness down and not embrace it is when it comes out sideways. You know, that's when it comes out in the sales conversation or comes out in our marketing. And it has this weird feeling of like, Oh, please buy for me or I'm not going to make it. And that feels horrible. To you as the business owner and it also obviously feels horrible to the client, but if we can just slow down and allow our heart to be fed our heart to drink in the love to drink in the care to know that we're cared for deeply. Then that allows us to feel grounded and solid and then we can start to provide a refuge for people and our clients can then lean into us not feeling like we're trying to extract something from them. Yes, we want to get paid, but we really want to care for people at the same time and it becomes a [00:28:00] much healthier interchange and it allows us to get at our marketing and our sales in a way that can feel really good in the heart. Because we're not trying to get something from people in that same kind of twisted way. Sarah: I feel like our, both our work is so aligned. You, you talk about sacred selling. I talk about selling like we're human. I have this visual of having a conversation with your client in the serene garden, right? So this groundedness is very much there. And, and I, yeah, I really hear you with what that means in terms of the neediness. But then there's also this other aspect of the client sovereignty, which you also talk about in the book, right? It's kind of this counter piece almost, uh, where yes, we have needs, but we also want the client to be sovereign and, you know, make their own decision and respect their decision. And their [00:29:00] timing and all of that, which is not what we're usually told in marketing or selling. We are told to push at any cost. So, um, yeah, what's the sacred selling look like for you?  Mark: Well, it's, it's so interesting because when I, when I. If my former career was as a paramedic, or 1 of my former careers was as a paramedic in the San Francisco Bay area, and I did it for some years in pretty intense environments like Oakland, California. And I, um. When I came into business more came back into business, I should say, I found that I was really good at sales and I was like, how does this may even make sense? And I realized that because I was a really skilled paramedic, I was skilled at doing rapid assessments and chaotic, chaotic environments where people were often scared or upset. I was good at. Caring for people and [00:30:00] assessing that that's basically what sales is. It's this assessment that, um, we're trying to get to the bottom of what is it that they really need. It's interesting. Another interesting thing that I discovered was that in, uh. English the word to sell the word cell comes from an old English word cell gen. I'm not pronouncing it correctly. I don't speak old English. Um, but the original meaning is to give something to someone in response to a request. So if you were to say, hey, Mark, can I have that pencil and I handed you the pencil that's selling. I would have sold the pencil to you because you asked for it. That's the heart of what we're trying to do is just get people what they need, not force people to make a decision that's entirely on us. So one of the, one of the keys of selling, uh, successfully is actually, and I. And I, I think this can be counterintuitive [00:31:00] sometimes for people that are hard centered, is that it's a numbers game. Um, you, you want your business to reach enough people that your need to have business and clients, which is totally legitimate. Of course, we need business and clients doesn't put that pressure on any one individual person that you're talking to. You can't really help it so much and it takes a lot of spiritual work and heart soothing in the beginning of business because you don't have such a wide network yet. You know, to not put that pressure, but as a business develops part of what happens is that. You naturally start to gain a larger audience i mean you work towards it you develop it you put things in place that help grow the audience and i don't mean tens of thousands of people i just mean hundreds of people or maybe a couple thousand that your business is reaching. So that when you have an offer, there are people that are naturally ready to [00:32:00] step forward and you're not putting pressure on people that aren't ready. And you can easily in your heart, give people space when they're not ready.  Sarah: Yeah, that's a really good way to, to put into perspective why we, I don't, I'm not a big fan of the word audience, but in this case, it makes sense, right? Why we need our work to reach. Several people, not just the ones that we talk to, and then we feel like we have to push our services onto them. So, so to me, it's always been such a gift when I put out an offer and then people resonate with that offer and come to me, right? That's such a more natural way of, of then having this, uh, humane, uh, gentle sales conversation. Mark: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I'll tell you why I. Do you like the word audience? Um, I think that, and there may be other words. I'd be interested to hear what your [00:33:00] language is around it, but audience for me has an element of honesty about it, you know, so for instance, heart of business, we reach thousands of people, you know, our emails. When we send out our Wednesday email, or if I'm on social media, there's thousands of people I don't have, I have a warm relationship and anyone who steps forward to talk to me, we have a warm connection. But I don't have an in, we do as a business. And for me as a, as the, as the head of the business, I don't have a warm, uh, I don't have an intimate. Relationship with each person on the list and, um, I care, obviously, you know, we care. It's not to say we don't care, but until someone steps forward and wants to have a deeper relationship, you know, joins our learning community or joins a course or something, then it becomes 2 way relationship. And until then, it really is a relationship. With an [00:34:00] audience, um, with, uh, you know, that's more or less a one way communication, unless someone chooses to reach out and email me, which I always, I mean, I love to get those messages, but the truth is the vast majority of people don't. So,  Sarah: yeah, no, and I get that. I think it's, it's, it's more the. Again, it's one of those buzzwords that has gotten a bad reputation because once you unpack the word, yeah, that's what the word means, right? And there's nothing bad with that word. But the problem is that, um, the guru marketers, you know, they tell you to scale your audience and grow. And so it becomes this negative thing where, again, we make. People feel like they have to have this giant audience and, you know, not everybody wants to have the same kind of business module like you do, or some of the other, um, marketers do. And so that's why to me, when I work with one on one coaching clients, for [00:35:00] example, they're like, I don't have an audience. What is an audience? Right. And so when I explain it to them, what it means, then. Then they get it, right? So it's all a matter of making sure that we speak the same language and understand  Mark: each other. It's so important because these words do get really twisted.  Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. Well, let's come full circle and come back to pricing. Um, any kind of, um, thoughts, actions that you'd like our listeners, watchers to, to take and just to. Go deeper into this ethical pricing.  Mark: Um, I think so. Arriving at a price is a little bit of an alchemical process. Um, you know, you need to have some knowledge. Like, I really encourage people to figure out what are your financial needs? You know, what are the needs of the business? You know, what is it? What is a price that a That you don't [00:36:00] have to be overwhelmed by clients in order to make a living and at the same time we need to be aware of our somatic body of our of our heart resonance because especially when we're newer in business i like to see people prioritize getting energy flowing through their business as opposed to like sticking to their guns and quote unquote charging what they're worth which doesn't make any sense that phrase doesn't even, You Make any sense. Um, and so oftentimes people begin, you know, we encourage people like, what is the price that you feel in your heart, in your body? You can say without shaking that you can put out there and feel really solid about and feel comfortable welcoming people in, even if it's lower than what you really need. Because what happens is, is that yeah. You know it's it's it's never only the price that's keeping people from saying yes [00:37:00] there's all these other pieces that need to be looked at in terms of how are you communicating and are you reaching the right people and you know and a lot of other things and. If all of those things are true, you know, and you get all of those things in alignment, then finding the price feels resonant in your heart. Even if it's lower, we'll start to get the flow going if your business is newer and you don't have a lot of flow. And so, um, and then that builds up your container. You start to go, Oh, I like working with clients. Oh, I've gotten to practice the sales conversation. I've gotten good at that. Oh, I like, I see that my offer is working and I've managed to tweak it. And once those things happen, generally, we start to feel comfortable at a higher price at a price that may be, you know, more sustainable. On the other hand, yeah. There may be people who have been in business for a while, and [00:38:00] they're actually not charging enough. And that's part of why their business is struggling. And, you know, and I'm talking about ethically in terms of being in alignment with themselves. We, I, I've had clients who said, you know, I've learned from this person, they've been doing it for 40 years, they're a master, but they're only charging this much. And so how can I charge more than them? And I, I often say, you know, well, they're, you know, they may be really good at what they do, but maybe they haven't worked on their money, money issues, maybe their pricing is stuck in a somatic memory from the 1980s instead of, you know, present day and, um. And a lot of times people in those positions don't realize how they're affecting everybody downstream. And so there's like an ethical need to embrace sustainable pricing, you know, sustainable pricing for the business owner. I think ethical pricing. We often look at, okay, are we [00:39:00] doing harm to the client? And that we do, we need to pay attention to that. But I also, you know, Notice that a lot of, uh, people that we work with see the systemic injustices, see the ways that people are struggling. And I'm saying, and I like to tell people, you cannot make up for systemic injustices on your own back. It needs to be a collective response and, um, and often our economic, economic system is asking, you know, exactly the people who shouldn't be giving yet more free labor, you know, women, people of color, um, queer folks, people who are disabled. Always the good people, right? Right. The people, the people who are, who are already being taxed by the system, who are already being asked to give more and to do more. And. These folks, and, you know, you need to have, um, sustainable pricing.  Sarah: [00:40:00] Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up this other side, which I, yeah, I truly believe in both sides and I do, I kind of see the same thing happening as in the sustainability field where there's so many good people, you know, putting. Themselves and, and, and their work into making these changes that we need to make, but they're not taking care of themselves, right? They're burning out in masses and, and that is not humane, uh, either. And so that that's not helping anybody. And so it's the same for the, for the humane business owner. Well, we need to actually first have you take care of yourself. Uh, once you are sustainable and you feel like I've taken care of myself without working day and night, right? A humane best business, in my opinion, is a business where you do actually have time to be human. We need to have this. Time to [00:41:00] to, yeah, create spaciousness for being human again, which we have, you know, forgotten how to do. You're talking about, you know, um, uh, plants and things like that. Well, we don't do that anymore because we're working all the time. But, um, so, so, yeah, I could go go on and on about this. This is like. One of my passion topics right now, but it's so true that we need to listen to, to both of these things. Yes. We want to be ethical towards others, but also towards ourselves.  Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and I think it's important for most people to, you know, people come into the field seeing, Oh, Hey, you know, come into their business thinking, Oh, I want to do this. You know, I want to make it accessible. I want to, you know, And I'd like to remind folks that most businesses, the business model that they're ultimately going to be successful with is not a business model that is accessible when they're in the very beginning of their business [00:42:00] and, um, you know, our pay from the heart model for our learning community. I couldn't even even created the learning community back in the beginning of our business. I didn't have the material created. I didn't have the solidity and the knowledge and the clarity that I have now on how to help people without having my hands directly on their business, you know, 1 to 1. And so it's quite a natural progression to, um. Start with getting the business on sound footing and then as you're, as you evolve and as you gain knowledge, and as you get clear on your work and your body of work, then to start to think about how can I shift this business model, not only to make it easier for me, but also to meet some of the goals I have around making it accessible to others. Sarah: Yeah, that's a good strategy. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Mark. Why don't you tell people where they can find. About [00:43:00] you and also your book and maybe tell us about who the ideal reader is for your book as well.  Mark: Yeah, thank you. Well, I mean, we live at heart of business dot com, uh, you know, if you're interested, you know, you may want to just start with our email list and make sure that, you know, I, I'm, I'm actually who I say I am and that the. Stuff that's coming out is consistent, you know, and it make and it makes sense on practical on practical level. Um, you can on our homepage if you scroll down, uh, uh, get an excerpt from the book, um, to read the 1st chapter and to see the table of contents. And, um, again, that's a good way to get it. Get a sense of it. Um, it's interesting when you write a book, it's definitely for, you know, heart of business. We specialize in working with micro businesses, which is people that are self employed up to, you know, maybe a double handful of people involved in the business, you know, from [00:44:00] people that are just trying to replace the professional salary all the way up to, you know, small businesses that might be struggling. Yeah. Making high six figures or low seven figures. That's kind of our range. Um, but I've been told by a lot of people that work with much larger companies, that the book actually applies very beautifully to people working in large corporations. And, um, um, and, uh, and so, yeah, um, we're just trying to get as much support. I'm really grateful. You're doing the work that you're doing, Sarah, because, um. We need as much love in the realm of business as we can get. There is so much healing and so much change that's needed, uh, to, um, undo the damage and to have a much more humane, much healthier, much more heart centered approach, uh, to being in business in this world. Sarah: For sure. Yeah. Thank you. I [00:45:00] always have one last question, Mark, and that's, what are you grateful for today or this week?  Mark: Oh, I am so grateful for where we live. Um, I get to, I know a lot of people don't have access to this and I'm just grateful to have access to, um, the woods and, uh, and the land around our house where we can grow food and where we can walk the dogs and just be in connection with nature. And it's just, um, it's just a, it's a balm on my soul.  Sarah: Hmm. Wonderful. I'm grateful our internet connection worked for this conversation.  Mark: Yes. That too. That too.  Sarah: Thanks so much for hanging out, Mark.  Mark: Yeah. Thank you for having me. Sarah: I hope you got great value and insights from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Mark and [00:46:00] his work at heartofbusiness. com. And of course, go over to heartcenteredbusinessbook. com to get a free excerpt of the book and some other information and of course, also links to buy the book. If you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us? During the week of December 4th to 8th in our community, we're hosting an expo. We call it the Humane Marketing Circle Expo, and we'd love to see you there. At the expo that is hosted by our community members, we prioritize connection as a guiding principle. This means you'll find engaging workshops, intimate discussions, study groups, and even a walk in nature. We believe in the power of a Collective wisdom, learning together and creating a truly participative atmosphere. The sessions are curated into four themed categories, being, relating, thinking, and doing, and these [00:47:00] are all addressing spectrum of topics that engage both our left and right brain, our masculine and feminine energies. So would you like to be part of that? Well, go over to humane. marketing forward slash expo and join us for this week of Humane Business Offerings. It's free to join, and we just ask for small donations to attend the workshops and the raised funds all go towards our first live event of the community in Sicily in May, 2020. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 178. And on this beautiful page, you'll also. Find a series of free offers, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your [00:48:00] clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:49:00] 

This week I had the pleasure of delving into a deep conversation with Patrick Geary in our latest podcast episode. Brace yourself for a paradigm shift as we explore the realm of Quantum Marketing. Patrick, a seasoned quantum coach, astrologer, and time magician. In this episode, we redefine success, liberate ourselves from the confines of marketing "shoulds," explore the effects of scarcity, and discover how abundance can coexist harmoniously with financial stability. If you're ready for a profound shift in your approach to marketing, join us for this different approach to marketing that's about partnering with the Quantum. In this episode, Patrick and I address: A definition of Quantum Marketing How Quantum Marketing makes us rethink our definition of success Conditions and shoulds in marketing and how QM helps us break free from them Scarcity and its impact How we can be in abundance and still pay the bills And so much more -- [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:29] Hi friends, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. I hope you're doing well. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership. And this time we're partnering with. The quantum. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. [00:02:50] And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at [00:03:00] humane. marketing forward slash one. page. That's the number one and the word page and humane has an E at the end. So it's not human, but humane. [00:03:11] It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. So in this episode, I talked to Patrick Geary about Quantum Marketing. Patrick is a quantum coach, astrologer, and time magician who helps people weave joyful new realities. His work will help you to recognize the patterns that govern your daily decisions, to make creative connections with your higher consciousness, and to craft a new mindset to catch what your soul desires. [00:03:45] Patrick believes passionately in world service and worked as an international human rights lawyer for the UN. He has come to understand that the greatest service of all is to be a living example of your truth and knows [00:04:00] firsthand that one person can always make a difference. In today's episode we address definition of quantum marketing, so what What does that really mean? [00:04:11] It's a fancy term, but what does it mean to Patrick and also how do I understand it? How quantum marketing makes us rethink our definition of success, conditions and shoulds in marketing and how quantum marketing helps us break free from them, scarcity and its impact and how we can be in abundance and still pay the bills. [00:04:36] And so much more. Are you ready for a different way of thinking about marketing? Well, then this episode is for you. Let's dig in. Hi, Patrick. So good to be hanging out with you and talk about quantum marketing. [00:04:53] Patrick: Likewise. Thanks so much for inviting me. I'm really excited. [00:04:57] Sarah: Yeah, me too. And we've had some [00:05:00] off recording conversations about this because we really wanted to make sure that we, you know, have an episode and that really explains this quantum marketing and how you see it. [00:05:13] And you, you notice that, you know, I'm, I'm new to this as well. And so I'm like, well, how can we make it clear to people who are also new to this? So I'm super excited to, to dive into this with you, Patrick. So, so maybe before we go into kind of the topics that we decided we wanted to cover, let's start with a definition, you know, like, how would you define quantum marketing in your words? [00:05:40] Patrick: That's a great question. And when I think about quantum marketing first, we can look at when I'm talking about what quantum is and the word quantum and what is the quantum structure and then just give a sense of maybe how that applies in the context of marketing. So when we look at the quantum structure, we're looking at the nature of consciousness and how consciousness expresses [00:06:00] itself. [00:06:00] And your consciousness and I'm consciousness and everything you see around you is consciousness. It's this understanding that there's really no separation. That the universe is just one particle that's vibrating to infinity. So that quantum structure is that sense of you and me are inside the universe. [00:06:18] Sometimes I think it's really funny we talk about the universe wants this from here. The universe wants that as though it's different from us or separate from us. And it's not. We're inside the universe. That's one of those key things to remember is that we are a part of the quantum structure. We are part of the infinite and what we see and what we experience is up to us. [00:06:40] It's really the sense that like, this is like a dream, you know, when you go to sleep, you accept that anything that's happening in that you're seeing, it's all a projection. It's all things that are happening that your brain is perceiving and wiring back to you. So it's that same thing in the physical reality of. [00:06:55] Everything that you see is a projection. It's a part of you and [00:07:00] what you experience. It's determined by your beliefs, by your emotions and also by your actions. So that's kind of that quantum structure generally is there is no separation. We experience things separately and we can talk about parallel realities, which is also really fun. [00:07:15] Like the two of us right now are having a parallel reality experience. We're having the same conversation together. So we're coming together and you're looking at me and I'm looking at you. So we're having the same conversation and we're seeing the same thing, but we're also doing it through these different eyes. [00:07:30] So that's also that awareness of like, we're together right now we're operating as one, but we also have two different viewpoints and what you see is influenced by your emotions and your beliefs and your actions. And for me, it's the same. So we take that kind of basic idea of this is the quantum structure and then we can look at it from how does this, what does this mean when it comes to marketing? [00:07:52] So one of the things I really think about is you're only ever really marketing to yourself. If everything is united and there's no separation, [00:08:00] then it's really. You know, how you go about sharing your work is going to determine how it's received. So your actions, your beliefs, your emotions, this has a huge impact on your message and your marketing and how you see it received in the world around you. [00:08:18] Sarah: Yeah, it's so interesting when you started with, you know, consciousness and how quantum really means conscious and When I think about right now, you know, in the Zeitgeist, this word conscious is so, you see it everywhere, you hear it everywhere, but I'm not sure everybody has taken the moment and thought about what does it really mean, and do they think of the word conscious in the same way you just explained quantum, like conscious conscious. [00:08:53] Yeah. I think the way I use it is different from what you explained that we're all [00:09:00] one. Um, I guess in a way, yes, because I, you know, in, in marketing, like we're human or humane marketing, I say it's, um, marketing for the generation that cares for ourselves, our clients and the planet. So in a way, I am thinking we are all one, so we need to all take care of each other. [00:09:23] Does that make any sense to you, what I'm trying [00:09:26] Patrick: to explain? It does. Absolutely. And whether you're looking at, you know, you, you as your own personal experience or you as me or you as the world around you, You're looking at the same thing. It's like that sense of like, are you, you know, I almost imagine like telescope or microscope. [00:09:43] Like, are you looking at something really big and vast? Or are you going to look at, you know, the whole world around you and everyone you can see and know that they're all part of you and this is what you're experiencing? And how you want to work with? Or are you just looking at yourself? Are you doing the microscope and really looking at like, what is my [00:10:00] message? [00:10:00] And how am I broadcasting it? And what does it mean to me? So it's you can really vary that scope from looking all the way. You could even imagine marketing to the universe, which is essentially what we're all doing. You know, marketing to things that go beyond earth and really transmitting your messages out there into space. [00:10:17] You can imagine that sense of marketing as big or as small as you want to. And it's really, you get in for, you get almost like different perspectives or you wear different hats as you do that. And I find that's what's really illuminating is looking at that perspective from, you know, like, am I marketing just to me? [00:10:32] How do other people receive my messages? So when you try on those different lenses, it feels very different. That might, is that been your experience too? When you look at those different levels of like a marketing to me, I'm marketing to the next generation, I'm marketing to the planet. Do you get different feels for it? [00:10:48] Sarah: Yeah, definitely. And I and I think this marketing to me and, um, you know, one of the big differences between I find that between a humane marketing and traditional [00:11:00] marketing is this energy shift of Starting with ourselves first in humane marketing, where I say like, look at your passion, look at your bigger why, look at your personal power, meaning how you are wired and how, you know, you perceive the world where in the traditional marketing, it's It goes outwards. [00:11:23] It directly goes to your client avatar and you are always chasing something outside of you, right? Not starting with yourself. So I think it's that energy shift. And then it's funny because, uh, participants of the marketing, like we're human program, when it goes through the first three P's and we arrive at people, often they have this aha moment and say. [00:11:47] Is it possible that my ideal client is just another version of me? Like, it's not a bad thing. I'm like, no, yeah, that's exactly, uh, what this is about. Um, [00:12:00] and I think it kind of, yeah, relates to what you're saying is marketing to myself. Right. [00:12:06] Patrick: Yeah. And I think that's when you get that really nice alignment and that sense of truth and that real belief in yourself when you realize that, you know, what you want to offer to the world is something that matters to you the most. [00:12:18] And so you're looking to connect with other people who see that same thing in you. It's almost like I heard someone recently described. the concept of celebrity as, you know, being able other people being able to see themselves through your eyes. And I was like, that is so brilliant. That sense that somebody else can see themselves in me as I'm talking. [00:12:39] And that's that real marketing connection that I think we want, which really at the end of the day, a marketing connection is a human connection. As you say, it's all about transmitting information and sharing what we're here to share. So that sense of. That clarity, like if you're really in that space of clarity and you know this is who I am and this is what I want and you do that internal work, other people [00:13:00] sense that and they feel it and they respond to it, you know, it's that sense to it like again, like we're all connected. [00:13:06] So if that's where you are, then the only people who can interact with you and meet with you in that space are also people who are feeling clear in that way. Yeah, [00:13:14] Sarah: exactly. And it's, yeah. You're right. It's really that clarity that often resonates with people where if people sense that You're just chasing some, something outside of yourself and you're just kind of like shifting from one strategy to the next marketing strategy just to, you know, get to something, then, then that's not very, um. [00:13:40] It's not a calming presence, right? And so, yeah, it resonates probably with other people, but not the ones that we want to attract for sure. What that brings up for me is also, and we talked about this as well when, when we first connected this idea of the definition of success, right? How that [00:14:00] is such a key element in, in business anyways, but also in marketing. [00:14:06] And maybe tell us how That has to do with, uh, quantum marketing as well, where this definition of success comes in and why it's key. [00:14:17] Patrick: Yeah, success is such an interesting word and such an interesting concept. And one of the things we look at in the quantum perspective, too, is this idea of conditioning or being told certain things and, you know, in the quantum structure, everything is infinite and you have a message and you can share it with however many people you want to share it with, and you can create whatever experience you want to have. [00:14:38] And then the kind of experience that we want to create. Gets very almost narrowed down by our experiences over life and what society tells us like being successful means reaching 10, 000 people or being successful means having a product that is launched in 30 countries or whatever the metrics are that we use to determine success. [00:14:59] And if we work [00:15:00] towards those external metrics and they're not really part of our own truth, they're not really part of what matters to us, then that's when we start running into a lot of those constraints and constrictions and those feelings like, okay, well, I'm not worthy enough. You know, I didn't get the 10, 000 people that I wanted to get, or I did get the 10, 000 people, but I didn't do it in the way I wanted to do it in order to do that. [00:15:24] I had to be awake at funny times of night where my energy was off, or I had to dilute my message and say it in ways I didn't want to say it. Or I needed to do it on like these three different social media platforms when I don't even like social media. You know, you always get more of what you put out there in the world. [00:15:41] So I think this is also why we see lots of people experiencing marketing burnout, that sense of like, I can have a very successful, like outwardly successful marketing experience of getting lots of people on board. But at great personal costs, because it's not aligned with where I really am or what I really feel [00:16:00] is true. [00:16:01] And when you do that, you're not operating from that place of authenticity and it can be very draining and you start almost like attaching yourself to these conditions on like, in order to be successful, I have to do this and this and this, um, and I must meet these things. And then when you no longer meet them because you no longer can, because you no longer really wish to suddenly at all collapses, which is really the best thing that could ever happen. [00:16:24] But it's not a wonderful experience. Quantum [00:16:28] Sarah: approach here is to really, again, go within and listen to this consciousness that is telling you how you define success and then just tapping into, you know, uh, other stress, like, yeah, coming from within and aligning with the strategies that you feel like they resonate with you because they're aligned with your values. [00:16:54] And that will. Get you to that success because the definition [00:17:00] you created, you created it with quantum basically you created it with consciousness, right? [00:17:05] Patrick: Exactly. Yeah. And success because everything gets to be personal. Everything gets to be up to you. You get to make success mean what you want. And that does mean working through that conditioning and working through these things are hardwired. [00:17:18] So I don't want to say this like it's easy that you just wake up one day and you're like, you know what, forget all that stuff. Like this is hardwired in us. It's hardwired in our society and in our structure. So it's really a commitment. It's worth it. Um, but it is a commitment to see that sense of I really want to redefine success. [00:17:36] It can also be wonderfully simple. One of the biggest questions I always ask is just Does this bring me joy? So if I think about marketing, do I enjoy what I do? And do I like talking about it? Do I like sharing it? Do I like who I'm sharing with it? And what is the response? If people are responding to me, am I glad to hear what they have to say? [00:17:55] Or am I like, Oh, like, I don't want to talk about that product again. Or I don't want to talk about that. That [00:18:00] launch, or I don't want to talk at all, or I don't want to be on that platform. So noticing like, is this bringing you joy and what are, you know, and even just taking it down to like, what is a small step that you can take to bring you joy, to bring joy back into that process? [00:18:15] Sarah: I feel like it's a lot of unlearning from, you know, the mainstream hardwired. Stuff that was just kind of like, yeah, ingrained into our brains because patriarchy or whatever system capitalism told us, well, this is how success looks like. And now we're being asked to go and question all these assumptions and say, well, you know, maybe that's true for me, but maybe not. [00:18:41] And so how do I, how do I redefine it? And then look at the look, look at the ways. And I guess that's where goal setting comes in, because that's another topic we, we said we were going to address. Because that, yeah, if you talk about [00:19:00] success, then immediately, then there's all these gurus who are going to teach you how to reach your goals, be very aggressive with your goals and how to reach them and productivity and all of that. [00:19:11] And so I guess if we redefine our success, then we still need to somehow work towards these goals. But how do we, yeah, how are we more gentle in that process with, uh, approaching it with, uh, a quantum approach, I guess. [00:19:30] Patrick: Yeah. Well, one of the things I really think about is just keeping it really simple. And the idea of success as being joy or being like, I find joy in my work and I find joy in my life and I know that I am enough. [00:19:44] Almost looking like what is the emotional state of success and what does that look like? And how do you sit in that space? You always get more of what you are and what you do. So if you're sitting in a space and you bring yourself into the space of I'm going to find the joy in what I'm doing. [00:20:00] And I'm going to know on the inside that I am successful. [00:20:03] Guess it's, it's also, I find it really reassuring and refreshing to go back to this place of. This is all just a dream and it doesn't really matter whether my message reaches a million people or if it never even sort of leaves my office. If I write a book and I love the book that I wrote and I don't share it with anyone versus I write a book and the book gets read all over the world by seven billion people. [00:20:28] Not one of those is not more successful than the other from a quantum perspective. It's not like, oh, well, that's that's societal conditioning is okay. Your book is only successful if it reaches a certain number of people. Your book doesn't ever even have to be written. Your book can be the idea of writing a book and loving the idea of writing a book. [00:20:45] That can be enough for you. So it's really that sense of, okay, just remembering. It's all a dream. Everything is part of me. I'm choosing to have whatever experience I want. We're all celebrities. We're all the main stars of our own lives. So there's [00:21:00] no brownie points or bonus points for, you know, Oh, this book was read by 30, 000 people. [00:21:05] This was read by 1000 people. It doesn't matter. What really matters is how you feel about it on the inside. So that's one of the things I think about is shifting the goalpost and making the goalpost very much around emotions and making it around creativity and expression. Just really what consciousness is all about is like, I, you know, how are you expressing yourself in the world? [00:21:26] What are you creating? What do you see around you? And are you enjoying it? Do you like it? You know, you don't have to, if you don't like what you see around you, then that's probably a good clue that there's some things that are going on inside that are asking for your attention. [00:21:41] Sarah: Again, such a big shift from these left brain goals that come with numbers and figures and stats and all of that, right? [00:21:50] To tap into the right brain and the feelings and the heart and, and, and look at quality over quantity. Uh, and, [00:22:00] and it, yeah, it really is this reframing that is. Not easy to do if we were not surrounded with people who also think like that if we're looking outside and you know, let's say we're in a corporate, uh, situation. [00:22:14] Well, everything is measured by KPIs and goals and profit and numbers and everything like that. So, um, we're lucky that we're in the entrepreneurial world, but even there, even there, it's, it's a lot of, um, left brain thinking when it comes to. To goals. I like your I like what you keep repeating. This is just a dream and it reminded me of a vacation. [00:22:41] Um, we used to live in California in, uh, in Irvine, which is Southern California and kind of a bubble, right? And so we went back to the kids were smaller. We were living there in 2006. And so we went back in 2019. And my Yeah. My eldest, um, he [00:23:00] looks around and everything is kind of man made compared to Europe where, you know, there's a lot of history and old and, and he keeps, he kept saying, I think we're in a simulation. [00:23:14] I love your sentence about it's just a dream. Yeah, it's like we're in a simulation, you know, it's my simulation that I, uh, that I'm creating. And I think another sentence that comes to me is that I'm kind of using, uh, for myself often is just a reminder of not taking myself too seriously. Like, don't take yourselves too seriously because That's part of the, the issue with the goal setting and the ambition and, you know, the productivity and all of that is like, we're taking ourselves too seriously. [00:23:47] And we're taking the, maybe the wrong things too seriously, you know, like, yeah, the goals and the, the achievements rather than the joy and the, the, the journey [00:24:00] and just a small little things, uh, in, in the everyday process. [00:24:06] Patrick: Absolutely. And I mean, that simulation sense that is definitely very quantum, really that feeling of like, I'm, you know, I guess negatively it could be framed as I'm in the matrix. [00:24:15] I think it's really positive though, that sense of, wow, I'm creating every second of every day. I'm creating the world around me and I'm making this experience and it's all part of me and I'm doing it. That real sense of I choose my reality and I get to create it and I get to set the rules. And, you know, what rules from society or that I've learned, am I going to accept and what rules am I not going to accept is true, which is really what makes change in the world around us. [00:24:42] I think it's also really fascinating how you mentioned to this, even in the entrepreneurial world, we get this sense of like, these are the milestones that you cross through, or this is the path that you walk. These are the metrics. Again, we have another definition of success. So I was thinking one of the things that can be really helpful if you're in a transition [00:25:00] state is yeah sure those metrics are there and we can't ignore that they're there or that society's expecting this so we can look at them maybe they give us a certain amount of data it's not to say oh don't check and see how many people are you know visiting your site or don't look in your bank account or don't see how many people read your newsletter that can be valuable and helpful. [00:25:20] You know, it can be a it's how it's I guess it's data point that helps you to locate where you are, but that's by no means the full picture. So I almost imagine having like in this transition phase, like parallel indicators where you might be like, Okay, well, I'm gonna look at You know what traffic is coming to my website or how many people purchase my product or my course, and I'm also going to have my own metrics on how much did I enjoy this? [00:25:45] How many new people did I meet? How many wonderful conversations did I have? How did this enrich my life? Uh, What service did this offer to the world? Uh, you know, really looking at those, those more personalized metrics versus just [00:26:00] attaching ourselves to some of those other metrics of success, because if we do that, then again, we disconnect from our own truth and we're not able to create, you know, we always have that creative power, but if we've decided this is what success is, then we really don't have creative power to access outside of that predetermined notion. [00:26:18] Sarah: Yeah, and I'm rethinking back to a conversation I had with a with a potential client and she was kind of in this. Also this world about, uh, left brain and right brain thinking and, and I had shared with her, you know, kind of my struggles with wanting to, you know, have a certain number of people in the humane marketing circle and, and, and knowing that that's not, you know, that's again, quantity over quality, but still kind of being brainwashed with this idea. [00:26:52] Oh, you You know, I, I wish we had this many people in the, in the circle. And, and so, um, she told me and I [00:27:00] wrote it down on a post it note. She's like, well, what did you think of it more like us? This is a step or this step is in service to the vision. So like always coming back to the bigger vision, why you're offering what you're offering. [00:27:15] Right. And that is really helping me to feel like, well. Yeah, it's not about the number. It's about the vision and why I'm doing what I'm doing. Um, and, and yes, being in service of that. Every little step, every little conversation is in service of that, um, bigger vision. So yeah, that really resonated with me [00:27:40] Patrick: as well. [00:27:41] Yeah, I love that the natural next step, just that sense of all you need to know is one next step to take. And in the quantum structure too, one of the things I really think about is you can have this huge vision, which is a wonderful motivation and a dream. Then you can take tiny actions that sort of encompass the fullness of that [00:28:00] vision, right? [00:28:00] So if you have this sense of, I want a community and I wanna reach people and I want to be changing people's hearts and minds and lives and what's one little thing that I could do? So it might be, you know, inviting one more person to join the circle. Or it might not be, it might be you get to that stage of actually it feels like that wouldn't be the natural next step. [00:28:19] You know, it can be that like growing the cer the community up to a certain point. is, you know, sort of the natural next step. And then you'll also know when that feels right. And when that feels complete and that vision that you, that the bigger vision that you have will then want other actions. But it's really that sense of, are you feeding it with joy? [00:28:38] Are you coming back to this bigger picture? Are you coming back to the truth? That's such an important question. And if you don't, then that's when you kind of. You know, these getting lost in the treadmill, the one of the questions I really think about. I remember when I was working for a law firm, um, someone described the, the, I guess the attainment of partnership, which was after like 10 years of working for a firm and the [00:29:00] like small talk and busy talk at this firm was basically about how. [00:29:03] People were unhappy. Everyone just talked about how unhappy they were. And someone told me that becoming a partner at a law firm is like being in a 10 year pie eating contest. And then you just win more pie at the end. It was like, of course, that's like the last thing that you want, right? So you get more of what you do. [00:29:22] So if you're doing even these small actions that are feeling really resonant and feel joyful and are in service of the vision, um, that really does create. That next experience for you. [00:29:37] Sarah: Yeah, there's, there's one thing, um, that we kind of danced around, but we, we talked about the positive aspect. And then of course, if we bring more of this scarcity or fear, then the logical thing that we attract is also more scarcity or more fear. [00:29:58] Um, and yet, [00:30:00] you know, the practical side of me always knows, yes, but, You know, there's there's situations where people are just asking, Well, how do I just pay my bills? I just need to pay my bills. So how is quantum marketing going to work for me, uh, to to make sure that I have enough and without, you know, sliding into the scarcity and fear. [00:30:24] Patrick: Yeah, when I think about that, I really think about that transitional phase of being, you know, be where you are, start where you are. If you feel like I need to pay my bills and I have this job and these are the metrics that I need to meet. And this is what I need to keep doing. Sure, you can have that going. [00:30:39] And then when you are adding more things on to that. So as you are taking on new projects, or if you feel really inspired about something, or you have another idea outside of that, then just start playing with that idea of, okay, well, what if I just did this with a much lighter touch? What if I just, let's say that I remember when we were talking before I used it to an [00:31:00] example of like tomato sauce. [00:31:01] Like, let's say that I have a tomato sauce that I really like in my house and I want to promote this tomato sauce and I want to do it from the heart. So I want to do it because I love this tomato sauce and I associate it with my family dinners and it's. Fresh and it's organic and it's healthy and it's the best thing I've ever had. [00:31:20] I'm so excited about it. Maybe my cousin made this tomato sauce even. So let's say I'm like, okay, I'm going to start telling people about this tomato sauce, and I'm just going to make this my project. And I'm going to see how it goes. And I'm going to see what I can learn from this. I'm going to rediscover that joy of, you know, share, sharing a product and sharing an experience and sharing emotions and do it in this way. [00:31:41] And the more that you start doing that, the more that that starts becoming available in other parts of your life. So it's more that that sense that that feeling of what you have to do suddenly starts to shift as you realize, wait a second, like I've actually been promoting my cousin's tomato sauce. all over town. [00:31:58] And now like their business is [00:32:00] booming. Who would have thought, you know, now this tomato sauce is everywhere and everyone's enjoying it. And I'm, I didn't do this with any expectations. I didn't, maybe I didn't even do this for money. I just did it because I loved it. And I love talking about it. So really that sense of rediscovering that, seeing how it works, playing around with it. [00:32:17] Or even just kind of taking a little, if you have like a little mini product that you wanted to launch on top of what you're already doing and just do that from a place of joy. Or if you want to start baking cookies and bringing them around and that sense of, I wanted to offer you this, it's just that feeling of, I'm offering you something from the heart without any conditions. [00:32:35] So I'm not playing the success game. I'm not playing the, like, I need to hit 10, 000. I'm out of that picture. I'm not in that kind of conditioning treadmill. And knowing that that's another way to be and another way to work. And as you do that more and more and you see how it gets reflected back to you and you see the joy that you create in the world, then you start to feel safer to do things a little bit differently. [00:32:59] And it starts to [00:33:00] feel okay to maybe let go of some of those targets or some of those numbers and to start shifting the way that you do. Yeah. [00:33:09] Sarah: I talk about the transition also in the Marketing Like We're Human book at the end. It's like, well, how do you transition from hustle marketing and, you know, these manipulative techniques that get you the money in because they work, right? [00:33:23] The fear and the scarcity, it works. So how do I let that go and still am able to pay my bills? And I also say, well, it's a slow transition. So get rid of. Some of the hustling stuff that you just really cannot touch anymore and bring more of the joyful humane marketing and but don't do it from one day to the other, where then you're in scarcity because you can't pay your bills anymore. [00:33:53] So what I hear from you is like, this is the same. It's like, you gotta make sure that you're safe, you know, you, you have [00:34:00] to have your bills paid. And then you start a little playground with, uh, with the quantum marketing. I see it like a playground. It's like, oh, I go into my playground and, you know, make my sauce or whatever it is. [00:34:13] Um, and, and yeah, start feeling how this feels different. And then slowly you can bring some of that into Into your main activity or business. I [00:34:24] Patrick: really like that. Absolutely. I guess for me, it's almost that sense of realizing that you are in a playground. You've just been trapped in the jungle gym, just climbing around and around and around that same space. [00:34:34] And then suddenly as you open your eyes and you see there are other things to do, and there are other people to engage with. And eventually what I think about that scarcity marketing is if you're marketing from a place of scarcity and fear, you're going to be meeting people who are in a place of scarcity and fear. [00:34:49] And especially with the scarcity idea, this is not going to be a sustainable long term audience. If you're in a place of scarcity, then you're meeting people in a. And so I think that's the biggest [00:35:00] thing. And I think that's the and purchasing and making that long term committed relationship and really connecting with you as a person. [00:35:06] They're just buying out of a sense of fear or I don't have enough. Or what do I do? Or I have to get it now. That's not a long term, sustainable pattern. That's not that sense of this infinite playground that the quantum structure really is. That's a very limited version of I guess creativity and all of those conditions just make it really difficult to advance. [00:35:26] Thanks. [00:35:27] Sarah: Yeah, so true. It's, it's like this. never ending loop because you can't stop hustling because the, the people just, they, yeah, they don't stay, they don't become part of your sustainable long term business. You have to keep acquiring new people with the, with the hustling [00:35:46] Patrick: methods. Yeah. And you're connected over fear. [00:35:49] Is that what you want to connect with people over? That's one of the biggest quantum questions is whatever you're connecting with people over, you're emphasizing more in yourself. It's like what you're broadcasting out into the world. [00:36:00] So if you're really going to go into your own fear and scarcity and broadcast that in the world around you, sure, you might be able to make money. [00:36:07] You're also going to feel afraid and scarce, and probably you feel like you don't have enough. And you'll be terrified that your next project won't work out well. So really being aware of what is the emotional imprint that you are bringing in any situation, which is why similarly, I think you're very wise to say, like, don't quit your, you know, like your kind of day job now in order to immediately try this new thing. [00:36:28] Because if you do that, then you're going to go into a place of fear and scarcity. And if you're kind of dropping your vibration into fear and scarcity, that's what you're attracting in the world around you. It's really that sense of how do I hold the joy? How do I hold the creativity? How do I hold the play? [00:36:44] And how do I bring that in to what I'm already doing? And also, you know, kind of bring it in to choose projects that are bringing that [00:36:54] Sarah: so much. So lovely. Um, I think I want to ask one kind of [00:37:00] wrapping up question, like where can people find out more about quantum marketing? What, what kind of tools are there? [00:37:07] Like where does One start to find out more about these, um, the concept, the techniques, et cetera. [00:37:17] Patrick: That's a great question. I don't know that I have seen anything that's directly focused on quantum marketing. There are many things that are out there that talk about the quantum structure and quantum manifestation. [00:37:28] I also work with people directly. Um, as a coach and more and more, I'm starting to share my work and starting to share it in conversations. And I think I'll eventually have a quantum cafe, uh, YouTube channel coming out. We've got a few things I've already recorded. So I think maybe this is one of the things that I'm here to, to bridge or to help share in the world more generally. [00:37:50] So I'm always happy to have a conversation with anyone who's in this marketing world and wanting to figure out where they go next or how to bring more joy and light. [00:38:00] Into their, into their marketing, how to really appreciate the dream that we're all experiencing together and to really get in touch with those internal states and how we broadcast them. [00:38:11] Um, so I think it's pretty cutting edge. I don't know that I, I've seen [00:38:16] Sarah: a book. I should have looked it up. I've seen a book called quantum marketing. Let me just, why don't you share your website, uh, and where people can find you while I, uh, kind of Google the quantum marketing book. [00:38:31] Patrick: Yeah, please do. So my website is, uh, still waters dot space. [00:38:36] So www dot S T I L L W a T E R S dot S P A C E. [00:38:44] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you. Yeah. And I found it. It's called quantum marketing, mastering the new marketing mindset. For Tomorrow's Consumers and it's by Raja, Raja Man, uh, Raja Manar. Raja, Raja Manar. [00:39:00] [00:39:00] Patrick: Okay. How interesting. I'll have to check it out. [00:39:03] Sarah: Yeah, we'll definitely link to it in the show notes. [00:39:05] So we both haven't read it, but it's probably an interesting read, [00:39:09] Patrick: so. Yeah, and from the quantum structure, I can recommend one of my teachers, Marina Jacobi. Marina, and the last name's J A C O B I. She has a website, marinajacoby. com. She talks about quantum manifestation. Her work is amazing. It's all donation based. [00:39:25] She has six seasons worth of video. She does regular Q& As. She also talks a lot about the quantum structure and how we work within that quantum structure. So for me, this is, quantum marketing is almost kind of like a look at what does marketing mean in this bigger picture of quantum manifestation. [00:39:41] Because of course, like, what we're marketing is what we're manifesting. And whether, whether we're experiencing 10, 000 people buying our book or one person buying our book, this is all the reality that we've chosen. So for me, it's that kind of bigger awareness of what information is this giving me? Where am I locating myself [00:40:00] within the quantum structure and how do I feel about it? [00:40:03] And then this practical sense of like, well, what are actions that I can take that can bring me into greater truth and authenticity? So I hope that this book also also has that bigger perspective. I've noticed that quantum has become a very trendy word and that it doesn't always. I guess I wouldn't say that it always correlates to what I understand as the quantum structure. [00:40:24] This said, I would imagine there, yeah, there, there could well be a plethora of things that are out there for us to explore. And of course we created them, right, Sarah? You know, there's like, we, we are the same person. So anything you wrote, I wrote, anything I wrote, you wrote. So this person is also us. This book is also something that we wrote. [00:40:43] So it's us just accessing that, that universal knowledge. [00:40:47] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. So we'll, we'll add both links to the show notes and people can check out both of them. And of course your link as well. Um, this has been great. Thanks so much, Patrick. I always ask one [00:41:00] last question and that is, what are you grateful for this week? [00:41:04] Patrick: My gosh, um, I went to the dentist today and I was so grateful. Nobody has ever said that. I know, right? But I went down and I was lying for 30 minutes there and my daughter was with me and she was getting to really explore the office and see all of the different tools and the machinery. Had a really nice conversation with my dentist, who's just a lovely person. [00:41:27] I got my teeth all fresh and cleaned. I was lying down with these kind of dark glasses over my face for a little while. Well, my daughter was playing with my feet and I was like, you know what? This is just like being at the beach. This just feels heavenly. So it's like those little things, right? [00:41:43] Sarah: I just got a book of dentist appointment now to feel like lying at the beach. [00:41:48] Patrick: Why not? Right. Really with the light, the way it was all done, I just. [00:41:55] Sarah: I remember actually in California, um, it was really like that because they [00:42:00] had this paraffin solution next to you. And so you put your fingers in there and then, yeah, it was like, they, they peeled it off after they gave you a massage. I'm like, why can't all the dentists [00:42:12] Patrick: be like that? This is the dream. [00:42:15] Sarah: It was a simulation, I'm telling you. [00:42:19] Really great hanging out with you, Patrick. Thanks so much for being here. [00:42:22] Patrick: Thank you, such a pleasure. [00:42:31] Sarah: What did you think? I know partnering with the quantum is not for everyone, but it does always expand my mind to talk to Patrick, so I really hope you enjoyed it as well. You can find out more about Patrick and his work at stillwaters. space and If you're looking for others who think like you and maybe want to partner with the quantum or the universe or with each other, then why not join us [00:43:00] in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:43:01] You can find out more at humane. marketing. com and you find the show notes of this episode at Dot marketing forward slash H M one seven seven. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. [00:43:29] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients and the planet. We are change makers. Before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, we dive into the art of 'Authentic Outreach' with special guest Caroline Leon. We explore how reaching out genuinely can profoundly impact your business, especially for solo entrepreneurs. Caroline, a seasoned business coach, shares practical tips and strategies for making authentic connections, differentiating authentic outreach from traditional networking, and maintaining generosity in your outreach efforts. We discuss overcoming the unique challenges that introverts face and staying true to authentic outreach as your business grows. Caroline also shares real-life examples of how her business thrived through genuine outreach and offers actionable steps for anyone looking to implement more authentic outreach in their business. Whether you're a seasoned marketer or just starting, this episode provides valuable insights into building meaningful connections in today's business landscape. In this episode, we talked about: How reaching out genuinely can make a big difference in your business Tips for solo entrepreneurs on making real and meaningful connections Understanding the difference between reaching out and traditional networking The importance of being generous when reaching out Overcoming the challenges of reaching out, especially for introverts and sensitive individuals Staying true to authentic outreach as your business grows Approaches to connect with industry experts Real-life examples of how Caroline's business grew through authentic outreach Simple steps for getting started with authentic outreach And so much more Ep 176 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client and find out more at humane. [00:02:07] marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:29] Hello friends, welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of people and the P of promotion. If you're a regular here, you know, that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps at humane. [00:02:59] [00:03:00] marketing. com forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. Today I'm speaking to Caroline Leon about Authentic Outreach. Caroline is a business coach who specializes in supporting service based online business owners, such as coaches, healers, and teachers, to build and grow sustainable businesses. [00:03:30] She supports business owners to do away with the gross and manipulative tactics so prevalent these days online and instead adopt ethical growth strategies that put people before profits. In today's episode, we talked about how reaching out genuinely can make a big difference in your business. We mentioned tips for solo entrepreneurs on making real and meaningful connections. [00:03:58] Understanding the difference [00:04:00] between reaching out and traditional networking. The importance of being generous when reaching out. Overcoming the challenges of reaching out, especially for introverts and sensitive individuals. Staying true to authentic outreach as your business grows. Approaches to connect with industry experts, real life examples of how Caroline's business grew through authentic outreach, and then simple steps for getting started with this technique. [00:04:30] This conversation is really a preview of a workshop that I'm co hosting together with Caroline. She's the expert. We're doing a collab workshop once again, and that workshop takes place on November 8th. And, uh, yeah, we'd love for you to listen to this episode, see if it resonates and if it does, and you want more well. [00:04:54] Join us on November 8th. You can sign up at humane [00:05:00] dot marketing forward slash workshop There's a link to make a donation in the subscription The suggested price is 27 But you can give less or more according to the principle of maximum sustainable generosity And with no further ado, let's welcome Caroline Leon. [00:05:22] Hi caroline. So good to hang out with you Hey, sarah Thanks for coming to the Humane Marketing Podcast to talk about authentic outreach. Um, let's start with a kind of a definition what authentic outreach is and maybe compare it to the traditional networking or maybe even email marketing, kind of like cold emailing. [00:05:48] How is authentic outreach different? [00:05:51] Caroline: Yeah, good, great question. So, um, for me, I usually put it down to, um, a couple of things. It is often easier to describe what it isn't, um, [00:06:00] but I'll have a go at saying what it is first. So, um, I describe authentic outreach as making meaningful and genuine one to one connections with people in your network and wider audience, let's say. [00:06:14] Um, And so how it differs, you know, because when people hear that, they often think, oh, that's networking, isn't that, you know, and, and I always, I make a distinction between the two. So for me, networking often traditionally has this, um, element embedded in it, which is we're trying to get something from people. [00:06:31] I mean, we're working the network, you know, we're working our net, basically, that's what the word means. So, um, you know, we think lots of people think traditional networking, it's like, you know, standing at, um, um, um, You know, wine and cheese events, you know, handing out our business [00:06:47] Sarah: card and the stack of business cards in our [00:06:50] Caroline: jacket. [00:06:50] I'm just trying to, you know, get rid of as many as possible, you know. Um, so we're in that place of, like, self promotion, you know, how can I share with people [00:07:00] what I have to offer, what I've got to sell. Um, and the difference for me, the big difference, distinction between that and authentic outreach is we're not in it to get something. [00:07:09] Um, the, the, the fruits of authentic outreach are a happy byproduct I like to think of, of, of doing the work, but the goal really is connection and relationship. So, you know, we're in it to have. What I call an activated network, but we're not making those connections with something in mind. I mean, I like to think of, you know, going into any connection that I do, whether it's with, you know, former clients, colleagues, looking for some kind of win win. [00:07:39] You know, if we can have a meaningful connection that is fruitful to both of us. And that could just be the beauty of the connection. It doesn't, you know, have to mean. Something like a podcast interview or a client or something like that. It just, it, it's, it's making those genuine connections and building relationships that then, you know, are [00:08:00] rooted in some level of trust. [00:08:01] Which of course, if we think about business, it's wonderful. If we think about business as it was pre the internet, you know, that's how the most successful local businesses. They were the ones who had really lovely connections with the local community and that's how it, that's how it worked. It's kind of happened back to those days, those pre social media [00:08:23] Sarah: days. [00:08:24] Exactly like, you know, there was a world before social media. And it was, yeah, business owners were building on these connections. To me, when you, when I hear outreach, um, and then I hear you talk about it, Connections, building these lovely connections outreach to me is, is kind of like, it sounds like it's the first step of building the connection because the word outreach kind of, you know, has that meaning of the first thing. [00:08:56] But you're talking, are you talking only about that first time? [00:09:00] Or is outreach then also something that, you know, builds into, yeah, connection and relationships? Yeah. What is it that, um, that you're talking about? I'm assuming both, but I just want to be sure. Yeah, [00:09:16] Caroline: both. I mean, and I, and something I'm going to share in the workshop is like the stages of outreach. [00:09:21] You know, there's kind of three levels and, and the initial stage is really connecting for the sake of connection. Um, and, and it's not always, you know, people hear outreach and they think it's new people. It's people I don't know, but most people are sat on. A huge network that they, of people maybe that they've worked with in the past, old colleagues, old, you know, acquaintances, people that they've forgotten that they had meaningful relations with. [00:09:49] So, you know, a lot of what I teach is about reconnection. It's not always making new connections. Sometimes it's reactivating a connection that has. You know, gone, gone quiet. [00:10:00] And we all, if we're honest, have those people that we think, Oh, maybe it's been too long. I really wish I'd kept in touch with that person. [00:10:06] I really, you know, but now it feels too, you know, like too much time has passed. I have this personal rule because, you know, I can let time pass, which is it's never too long. To reach back out to somebody, um, and with that approach, you know, and I'm talking here from a personal perspective and also, you know, from a business perspective, um, I've reignited some really beautiful connections that otherwise I would have just let them, you know, let them fizzle out and disappear. [00:10:37] Sarah: I think sometimes we're embarrassed to reach back out, but yet if you do it in a Transparent and meaningful way, then I would say probably, probably almost 10 times out of 10, if not nine times, or if not more, then the connection, you know, establishes again, because it's just human and we all have, [00:11:00] you know, full lives and so it's not like people are going to say, Oh, you haven't been in touch for a year and now I'm not going to talk to you again. [00:11:07] So, so yeah, I hear you. It's like reconnecting. Um, and then, yeah, you mentioned these three stages. Another thing you mentioned is the intention that is so from the networking, right? So it's obviously, I think there's also, you know, it's always, at least in, in, in our realm here, it's business related. So yes, it is. [00:11:33] Some kind of intention that this is a business relationship, but it's not that client cold calling relationship where we're just going for the money. [00:11:44] Caroline: Yeah, I mean, I'd love to speak because you said, um. You mentioned the words transparent and meaningful when we were just talking about personal connections and I would say that absolutely follows through to the business, you know, outreach that I talk about. [00:11:58] And that's one of the [00:12:00] areas that people really struggle with because it's like, how can I be transparent and how can it be meaningful or how can I make these connections without people thinking? She's after something, um, you know, or like there's some hidden motive and I think that's a huge fear that a lot of people have about outreach and it's something that, you know, I go into quite a lot when I, you know, teach this stuff, um, because that's That's, that's, I think that's what, most people know it makes sense to have an activated network and that they should be getting from behind their screens and actually talking to people. [00:12:33] But I think that fear of how is it going to come across, how, how do I even do? What do I even say? It's the how. It's the how. How and who, I think. Often, as well, I talk to a lot of people and they're like, I, I have a tiny network. I mean, that's probably the first thing that people say to me when I bring this topic up with one to one clients. [00:12:53] You know, it's like, I don't know, I don't have that many people. And it always makes me smile because I said the same thing to my coach like [00:13:00] 12 years ago when I first started working on this stuff. And I love really digging in also into that, into the who is it, um, who is it and how, you know, do you tell your messages accordingly, you know, to the people that you're reaching out to, but I think they're the two big stumbling blocks for people. [00:13:17] It's like, I don't know. First of all, I don't even know who to reach out to in a business. Set in. And secondly, even if I do know who, I dunno what to say, I dunno how to say it, that comes across as transparent [00:13:28] Sarah: and meaningful. Yeah. Well, maybe can you kind of give us an example, a story from a client that, uh, or your yourself, right. [00:13:37] Where you're like, oh, I figured out the who and I figured out that what, and kind of give us a really practical example of, of how that looked like. [00:13:47] Caroline: Yeah. I mean, uh, let's have a think so, um, Well, I'll give, yeah, I'll give you one from mine because this is a classic. And I think, I think Ellie, Ellie Trio has been in the, yeah, in [00:14:00] the network, you're well aware. [00:14:01] Um, so years and years ago, I was doing some outreach and part of my outreach was, um, Uh, you know, reaching out to people I didn't know, people that I admired, um, on, on the internet, you know, part of it was about expanding my network and meeting new people also, which for me as a raging introvert and a highly sensitive person is not easy, um, and I can talk about that as well. [00:14:22] Um. And I saw, Ellie and I had both been featured in the same, on the same website. We'd both been interviewed for My Morning Routine. I think it's mymorningroutine. com. And I had been published, mine had been published like the week prior, I think. And then hers came up and I was, you know, on the newsletter. [00:14:39] And I thought, oh my goodness, I love this woman. She's British, she's a painter, she loves cats. We had a similar health condition. Um, I'm going to just reach out to her and tell her that I loved her interview. That, you know, I thought it was lovely. Um, you know, I just wanted to let her know that I was inspired by her interview and her work. [00:14:57] And Ellie and now, Ellie and I [00:15:00] have been business like besties for now. I mean, it's got to be close to a decade, uh, since I made that out, which we've been mastermind partners. We've, um, we've for, for years, we meet on the regular, we send each other clients. We, I mean, it's just been a relationship that has not stopped giving. [00:15:20] Um, and it came from one little message that I sent out, you know, years and years ago. So that's one. I mean, I've got others, but [00:15:27] Sarah: yeah, that's, that's... Yeah, I, I actually, um, thought of one because, um, Rachel, uh, Cumberland Dad, who's in the Humane Marketing Circle and Who Knows You, and who actually was in one of your programs, learned this outreach, right? [00:15:43] Connected with me. did exactly what you just said with, with Ellie and you know, my brother, well, she, she joined one of my programs. She's in the circle and now she's a certified humane marketing coach, right? And because I just love her and love what she [00:16:00] does. And that's, that's what can happen. Yeah. You come in from this, I just. [00:16:07] You know, I just want to tell you how great you are. I just, and not in a, in a spooky kind of creepy way, but in a real authentic way. And then, and then these partnerships and collaborations start to happen. Yeah, [00:16:23] Caroline: I mean, and I could, I refer to them often as like love notes, you know, dropping love bombs. And you know, sometimes it's more, um, You know, that's, and that's where we get into the how and the who, because that's someone, you know, that you've never met before, someone that you admire, so it's going to be slightly different to if you're writing to an old client or an old colleague that you haven't been in touch with for a while, so sometimes you can, you know, another example that I give often is, you know, to just to write to someone and say, Hey, I thought of you today and I know it's been, you know, forever. [00:16:53] I just wondered how you are, if you feel like, let me know what's up in your world. I'd love to hear. That's it. It's super [00:17:00] simple. It's genuine, you know, um, and people are touched that they're in your thoughts. People don't think with some, if you receive a note like that, I don't think you think what's this person's game, you know, like what's going on here. [00:17:13] It's so much easier, I think, to be genuine than we think, because when we're doing something in a business. context, we immediately, because of the dysfunctional online world that we swim in often, you know, we have this fear, I'm going to come across as I'm trying to sell something, I'm going to come across as I'm trying to get something from this person, um, and it, and it, and it, um, interferes with our ability to just be as genuine as that, really super simple, no, no attachment, you know, little, no. [00:17:45] One [00:17:45] Sarah: thing that, that I'm thinking of as you're speaking is, is the idea of time and kind of being patient and slowing down this process. Because I do, just as you were speaking, [00:18:00] I'm like, Hmm, I guess if Rachel, you know, would have reached out to me saying what she did. And then a week later, you know, she would have said something else. [00:18:09] And can you be, you know, can I be on your podcast or whatever it was. Then I would have probably started to think, hmm, you know, what is this? What's the intention here? Where if we just kind of, yeah, organically grow the relationship and realize that it starts out with giving more than, than immediately going to the ask. [00:18:33] Then I think we're building something for the long term. Otherwise, unfortunately, as human beings, we're just so used to the pitches that we're like... Immediately we're like, is there going to be a pitch? And then if there isn't, you know, then it's like, Oh, I can relax. Yeah. [00:18:51] Caroline: And you know, I often use the analogy of like dating or even, you know, making friends in the, in the real world. [00:18:57] You know, we often think that like [00:19:00] relationship creation or development in the business world is like something that we were like, I don't know how to do it. And it's like, well, how do you date people? How do you make friends with, you know, Someone in your yoga class, you know, you do. You, it's exactly as you described, it's slow and organic if it's effective, you know, if you, if you go on a date and then you're texting that person every, you know, every, every second hour after the date, then it's going to go, exactly. [00:19:27] So it's, we know these skills, it's just they sometimes go out the window when we're in business because we, we have this kind of panic about what we should be doing or how we should be navigating. And, and I think a balance that. that I, I teach when I teach this work is the balance between being strategic about our outreach, because we have to remember, of course, it is a business activity, you know, is something we're doing in service to our business, but with also holding it loosely, you know, so sometimes people will say to me, you know, should I keep a spreadsheet and have, you know, and then reach out to [00:20:00] people every so often. [00:20:01] And I'm like, you can, if you want, for some people, they need that, you know, it really, for me, it's always been much easier to just be. More organic with it, you know, if somebody, um, keeps coming back up to the surface, you know, that person, I keep thinking about that person, it's like, it's, then it's genuine for me to reach out versus I've looked at my spreadsheet and I can see, oh, it's been six months since I reached out to that person, I'll, Um, now I'll reach out to them so that, but there's always a dance, I think, with that because of course, you know, we're, we're, it's, we're working, we are in business. [00:20:34] And so [00:20:35] Sarah: yeah, it's that heart and mind combination. Right? And I, I feel like for me, for past clients, it's just the heart that operates because they, I just, you know, naturally think of them again, and then I'll reconnect with, um, with kind of these strategical partners where, I'm like, yeah, I really want to invest time in building the [00:21:00] relationship. [00:21:00] Some kind of strategy or spreadsheet does help me. Um, because the relationship is new and fresh, where clients it's already established. And so it's more natural just to, hey, how have you been? [00:21:15] Caroline: Yeah, exactly. I think that's a really great point. When I first, you know, started doing outreach in my business many years ago, I used to have outreach. [00:21:22] Scheduled in my diary was something that I had to almost force myself to do as a habit I had to develop because it wasn't natural to me as an introvert, you know, I'm I'm much more inclined to not Do that what's been freeing for me actually is that I am much more sociable In online than I am in real life. [00:21:42] You know, I'm the person who are like going to go down the back street to avoid seeing people on the way to the shops, but online it's much easier because there is that distance, of course, that physical distance. So it feels safer. Um, and yeah, I think, um, just, um, you know, trust in that is [00:22:00] important. [00:22:01] Sarah: Yeah. [00:22:01] Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the introvert thing because, um, well, as you know, I'm, I'm a fellow introvert and highly sensitive. And it's true that connecting online is obviously always easier. Um, I also like that most of your outreach, I guess sometimes it leads to calls, but not every time, right? It's not like this thing where all of a sudden your calendar is scheduled full with all these coffee chats, which... [00:22:31] Is not how I intend to fill my day. So, so it's like really finding what works for you. Or extroverted you might like to talk to people. More often, but [00:22:42] Caroline: it's yeah. Yeah. And also, you know, it's something that Ellie tree says about this that I'd love she talked about, you know, honing your kindred spirit radar when it comes to, you know, making connections with people. [00:22:53] And so there will be people who it feels more. effort, like an effort to reach out to maybe there's some fear or [00:23:00] there's some, you know, hesitation. And there are some people that you're just like, I love this person. I love getting on the call with this person. This is not, you know, difficult. And I think also honoring that if it feels too forced or if it feels too, um, You know, too much of an effort for you, um, then, you know, we can, we can look at that also and we can honor that because I think, again, going back to, you know, real life relationships, you know, we don't force ourselves to become friends with a woman in the yoga class if we don't want to, you know, we, that's something that we, we choose because we enjoy that person, and I think that's as equally as important in the business context, [00:23:39] Sarah: um. [00:23:41] What would you say, how much How important is confidence in this whole thing? [00:23:48] Caroline: That's a good question. I don't... So I have a view on confidence, which is that we're all born confident. You know, I always talk about like, um, you know, [00:24:00] babies aren't comparing themselves as they're trying to learn to walk and things like that, you know. [00:24:04] So we're all born with, I think, a well of confidence. What gets covered up... Uh, our, our, you know, our confidence gets covered up with the thoughts and the doubts and the, you know, um, and the inner, the, you know, the chat, the inner critic and all of that stuff. So for me it's like, My approach to this sort of stuff is, is to just go for it and see what happens, you know, like if I'm feeling, you know, something is, feels like a scary outreach to make, of course, you know, we're all, we're all going to face resistance. [00:24:34] If there's someone in our industry, for example, and we think I really should make connection with that person, but I'm worried, you know, um, they won't respond or, um, we may resist. Um, and I think it's, I think for me more than, you know, I've got to be confident in order to do this. I think it's just being aware of, where am I resisting, you know, doing this or making this outreach. [00:24:57] Um, and just being gentle with [00:25:00] yourself about it. I mean, my thing is, the more I've done outreach, the more, the less, um, way I give to it. It's more, and that's the other thing as well as I think, you know, one of the things that I teach is, is to do a bit of a posh on outreach in the beginning so that you get over those fears of every message I send has got to be perfect. [00:25:20] Everything has got to be really thought out. So in the beginning, I do like to get people to do a kind of, you know, an intensive of outreach just to get over those. It's perfectionist tendencies where it's like I have to, I have to sit and think about every single word in this message before I send it. [00:25:38] Um, so I, I like to set people a little challenge on that. Um, and I think that really helps get people over the, the doubts, you know, or the fear. [00:25:48] Sarah: Yeah, no, I, I, I think you're right. Um, I do feel like there is this tendency for people to. Who am I to reach out to this person? Um, [00:26:00] and so I do feel like confidence has to do it or, and that's the other approach, just coming from this perspective, I talk always about, you know, doing everything like we're human. [00:26:11] And so just looking at the human, not at the business, because reach out like a business owner. Automatically, it will feel staged if you reach out as a human and consider the other human also as a human, not, you know, some famous person who's, you know, business is according to you doing 10 times better than yours. [00:26:35] Yeah, just put them on the same level as you because you're both human. Then I feel like the outreach is going to be much more natural and authentic, [00:26:44] Caroline: so. Yeah, and also though, if you're taking away the ask, which we do in authentic outreach, then we're not asking this person for something. So in that scenario, if there's someone who I... [00:26:55] you know, look up to, that's a mentor, a teacher, you know, I'm not going to write [00:27:00] to them and say, Hey, do you want to have a virtual coffee with me? Because they're probably way too busy and what's in it for them to do that. But I might write to them and say, knowing full well, I may never hear back from them. [00:27:10] They may not even manage their own inbox. I mean, I've done that many times with people who I think, I don't even think they check their own emails. They're that, you know, big. And I'll just tell them, thank you. Thank you for the impact that you've had in my life. You know, I, I, I, I really appreciate your work and I wanted to let you know who doesn't [00:27:27] Sarah: want to receive that. [00:27:29] Who doesn't like that. Yeah. [00:27:30] Caroline: So then I think that takes away that, who am I, too? Because of course, you know, anybody can give a compliment. That's, you know, even the people who seem like they're, you know. out there making multiple six figures and have huge audiences. They, they're, you know, they will, people always, you know, welcome that kind [00:27:49] Sarah: of feedback. [00:27:50] Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, you mentioned that you like to set people a little challenge and I know you have a seven day outreach challenge on your website. So I just want to [00:28:00] mention that and that's available at carolynleon. com outreach challenge resources. And of course, we also want to mention the workshop that we're doing together on November 8th. [00:28:14] So you can find out more about that at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. Um. These are donation based or, um, and we have a suggested price of 27, but there's also a pay what you can, uh, option. So, uh, we just would love for everyone to join us. And as you can tell, there's a lot more that can be covered. [00:28:39] And we're really going to go into more of the how right here. Kind of what we looked at is the why and how it's different. But, uh, what you're going to share with us, um, you talked about these three stages. Do they have names, these stages, Caroline? Um, [00:28:57] Caroline: well, the name is in the, in the, you [00:29:00] know, in what they are, but no, not, [00:29:02] Sarah: not, not one word names. [00:29:04] Okay. Yeah. So, so, um, we're, we're just really excited to go deeper into this topic of, um, of Outreach. Any, any last tips you'd like to, like, where could people start? Like, what's one challenge you can give them after listening to this episode? [00:29:23] Caroline: I, I would say reach out to someone you admire on the internet and just, you know. [00:29:28] Like a thank you. Yeah, and, and send them a thank you note. You know, a genuine note of appreciation. I think that it feels lovely to do it. The thing I love about that is it's lovely on both sides. So [00:29:39] Sarah: it really is. I just got one yesterday from a client. Um, I, so this was a client, but it's still nice to, you know, years later, I, I barely remember her. [00:29:50] She's like, Oh, I just want to thank you for the impact you had. I'm like, Oh, that's so nice. Just, it makes your day, right? So. Yeah, go and make [00:30:00] someone's day. Beautiful. Um, yeah, I'll mention your website again. Uh, Caroline, is it Leon? It's Spanish. [00:30:12] And, uh, the workshop is at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. Please join us on November 8th. We'd love to have you there. Thanks so much for being here, Caroline. Thanks for having me. [00:30:30] I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Find out more about Caroline and her work at www. carolineleon. com and check out her 7 Day Outreach Challenge at www. carolineleon. com forward slash outreach dash Challenge dash resources. And of course, please join us for the CoLab workshop, uh, about authentic outreach that takes place on November 8th [00:31:00] at 11:00 AM Eastern Time, 4:00 PM in the uk, and that is 5:00 PM Swiss time or uh, central European time. [00:31:10] You can sign up at Humane Marketing slash workshop. This is a simple zoom registration, but there's a donation link in the subscription. The suggested price is 27, but, uh, just give less or more according to this principle of maximum sustainable generosity, which basically means you give whatever you. Can at this moment to make it still sustainable for yourself. [00:31:41] You can do so before the workshop, but we'll also remind you again during and after the workshop. Please understand that the recording of this event is reserved for the Humane Marketing Circle. Members who pay a monthly membership fee, but, uh, get to attend all workshops for free and get access. [00:32:00] Which reminds me as well to let you know that, uh, Caroline is actually a member of the circle. [00:32:08] I don't think I've mentioned it before. And talking about the circle, if you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle and get access to all the workshops for free. You can find out more at humane. marketing. com And you find the show notes of this episode at humane. [00:32:30] marketing. com Marketing forward slash H M 1 7 6. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the Humane Business Manifesto, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. [00:32:56] We are change makers before we are marketers. So go [00:33:00] be the change you want to see.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, we dive into the ‘P' of Pricing, exploring the art of authentic pricing conversations and strategies with our guest, Nikki Rausch, CEO of Sales Maven. Our conversation covers essential topics such as whether to list prices on your website, how to approach pricing objections, the delicate balance between transparency and personalization in pricing, and much more. Join us in this discussion as we strive to make pricing a humane and ethical aspect of our businesses. In this episode, we talked about: Whether we should list our prices on our website – or not How to have pricing conversations Whether to offer payment plans How to handle pricing objections And so much more Ep 175 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business. [00:00:54] Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti. On the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing sales, general business building, or help with your big idea, like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost. 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client. [00:02:05] You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:30] Hello friends, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of pricing. If you are a regular here, thank you so much. You already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, uh, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. [00:02:56] marketing forward slash one page. That's [00:03:00] the number one and the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different areas, these different P's in your business. So it's not. Prescriptive, but it really helps you, uh, think deeply about these things in your business. [00:03:19] So today we're talking about pricing and I'm talking to Nikki Roush. Nikki is the CEO of SalesMaven. Where she helps people transform the misunderstood process of selling with 25 plus years of selling experience, entrepreneurs and small business owners now hire Nikki to show them how to sell successfully and authentically. [00:03:42] Nikki has written three books, all available on Amazon, and she has a podcast called Sales Maven, which you can find on your favorite podcast platform. I. Really love this conversation. We talked about whether we should list our prices on our website or not, [00:04:00] how to have pricing conversations, whether to offer payment plans, how to handle pricings, objections, and so much more. [00:04:09] Be ready to take some notes for this ones and let's dive in. Hi, Nikki. So good to spend time with you to talk about sales and. Pricing and putting prices and websites and all that good stuff. Welcome to the show. [00:04:26] Nikki: Thanks for having me, Sarah. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. [00:04:29] Sarah: Yeah, same here. [00:04:31] As I said offline, this question about putting our prices on our website or not, it's Whenever I bring this up in the humane marketing circle in our community, for example, it's like, oh, really, should we and here's why we shouldn't and like, all these different opinions. So I'm curious to, yeah, to start off our conversation, maybe with the prices and, uh, you know, you mentioned, or [00:05:00] I think I've seen it on your, um, On your website, this idea of the customer journey, right? [00:05:05] And so take us a little bit into that customer journey. And when, what happens when people come to your website, what stage they're at probably in the customer journey and what happens when they do see the prices or if they don't see the prices. [00:05:21] Nikki: Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. So I just want to start off by saying that, you know, what I teach is always built on rapport. [00:05:30] So I would say relationship first rapport always. So when somebody is coming to your website, they have indicated interest in some way, right? Like, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't just randomly go to somebody's website and start poking around. So there's something about them that has drawn them here. And that, that is usually an indication that they're interested in working with you or, or buying from you or taking that next step with you. [00:05:58] And the reason you want to have [00:06:00] pricing on your website is because. It is helping them establish whether or not they're an ideal client for you. So if somebody comes to your website and they don't see prices, one of the things that they often assume is that your prices are much higher. And in order for them to get that information from you, you're forcing them to take another step, which is to get on a live call with you. [00:06:29] And I know that a lot of sales coaches teach, like, don't put pricing on your website because you want the opportunity to have that conversation with people. But that's for your benefit. Not for the clients or the prospects. So when you're forcing somebody to do something, what, what happens in the start of that conversation is they already feel a little bit on the back foot because they're nervous now about having that conversation with you because they have no idea what kind of pricing [00:07:00] you're gonna. [00:07:00] Come back with and they might end up feeling embarrassed or ashamed to have to admit to you that they can't afford that. So, to me, it's a real breakdown and rapport for the start of the conversation for somebody to be nervous because what's the pricing? The other thing too, is it kind of sets the stage that, um, not only are you in charge of the conversation, but that you're. [00:07:29] Okay. Like, how, how much do they trust you yet to have that conversation and for you to list pricing because how do they know that you're giving them a price and giving somebody else the same price? So there's, there's, to me, it shows a lack of trust. It also, I think it's important for you to stand in your credibility and in your authority and, and. [00:07:51] Charge whatever it is that you charge and be revealing about it. You shouldn't have to hide your pricing in order to try to force people to have [00:08:00] conversations with you. You should be attracting your ideal clients, having them look at that and go, I do want to have a conversation with Nikki, or I do want to have a conversation with Sarah because I'm not sure what is the right offer for me, but I can tell already that she's got something. [00:08:15] She's got something for me. Yeah, I [00:08:18] Sarah: love, I love your approach and I definitely share the same you and, and you mentioned something where other sales coaches might tell people to not put their prices so that, you know, you get, people have to get on a sales conversation with you and you said that might be in your benefit. [00:08:38] I actually don't see it as a benefit. And I'm sure a lot of my listeners won't either because. I feel like we don't want to be in that convincing energy on sales calls anyways, right? I agree. It's uncomfortable. Yeah. I actually think it's our, in our benefit. If [00:09:00] people have the prices. On the website. So they, they know exactly what to expect and you're, you're right. [00:09:06] It's, it's so uncomfortable. The unknown and embarrassment comes in. It's just human to feel uncomfortable to talk about money. And so to have that upfront and just kind of like, okay, here's the deal. And also, like you said, it creates this trust of, there's not going to be any hidden stuff that I don't know and don't expect, and it's just like, it's all out there, totally agree. [00:09:31] Nikki: Yeah, you know sales your job is not to convince people to buy from you and if you're approaching sales from this Mindset of like I've got to convince people Well convincing somebody of something It does come off a little manipulative and it does come off a little like icky and you know, I think one of the misconceptions about selling is that people think sales is something you do to another person and kind of taking a, you know, a page out of your book about that humane [00:10:00] approach. [00:10:01] You shouldn't have to do anything to another person. I teach that sales is something you do with another person. It's a collaboration. And as much as you're deciding whether or not I'm a good fit for you, I'm also deciding whether or not you're a good fit for me, for my business. Can I really serve you and solve the problem or meet the need that you have? [00:10:22] And being really candid and honest about that, and not in a way that I don't have to feel bad about myself if you're not a good fit, you don't have to feel bad about yourself if we're not a good fit. We just bless and release and move on. And that's okay. [00:10:38] Sarah: I feel like it's, it takes that pressure out of this. [00:10:42] What I call the gentle sales conversation, right? Um, in the selling like a human book, I say, you know, picture yourself in the serene garden where you're just having a cup of tea or coffee with your ideal client. And, and there, the money doesn't even come [00:11:00] in or it comes in very shortly at the end because it's already dealt with, right? [00:11:04] I, I even send out like a coaching guide where again, it explains, you know, here's how Our collaboration works. Here's the price again. And like they have time to look at this in detail before we ever get on a call. And so then we just have time to be human together and do what you said. It's like, Oh, we're figuring out if we're a good fit and if I can truly help you. [00:11:29] And it's kind of like this being human and trying to do something to someone like you said. [00:11:37] Nikki: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I totally agree. I [00:11:39] Sarah: love that. Thank you. Yeah. So in terms of the pricing, it looks like we totally agree yet. I think sometimes people asked, well, what if I have custom projects? You know, it's like, what if I don't work hourly and it's not just like, oh, my hourly rate is this. [00:11:58] I create custom [00:12:00] projects. So I can put. The prices on the website or can I is there another solution you offer? [00:12:07] Nikki: Yeah, you actually still can. You could put a range now and I want to be really clear about this because a lot of times people think, well, I'll just put a. A starting at price and that's a mistake. [00:12:20] If, if you put a starting at price, you just have anchored this low price and that's not what you want to do, especially you get on a call with somebody, you find out, you know, how in depth their project is and that starting at price isn't even close to what the price is that you're going to. Have to charge them in order to facilitate it. [00:12:40] So you can put a range. You could say prices, you know, for this type of project range typically between, you know, and you, you know, have the low price to the high price. And it can, I don't care if it's a thousand dollars, John or a thousand dollars, just by putting a range, it shows that you're being revealing. [00:12:56] Now you don't want to put, you don't want to say something that's not [00:13:00] true. So always stand in integrity. And if you know that projects. Could potentially range between 30, 000 and 100, 000 put that and then when they get on the call with you and you say to them, you know, based on what you've shared the, the project, you know, that we're looking at here is probably in that 70, 000 range. [00:13:19] Well, they can feel relieved because it's not the high end. They're like. At least it's not 100, 000. But if you say 30, 000 to, you know, just starting at 30, 000 and then you say 70, 000 to them, they're going to be upset. They're going to feel like, oh, wow, you're gouging me. No, I'm giving you a legitimate price and I have been candid about this is the range, right? [00:13:45] Sarah: Yeah, so is that similar to the the idea of anchoring? [00:13:51] Nikki: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it is Yeah, so so you wouldn't just put the high price here because that that is a way to anchor [00:14:00] the high price But you wouldn't want to do that because that would probably scare off the people that would fall in the smaller, you know Pricing. [00:14:06] So put a range on the website. Now, when you talk about your offer or you talk about the ways that you could solve the problem for them in a conversation, I do believe in doing top down selling. So that is anchoring the higher price first and then work your way down from there. And again, you always want to stand in your place of integrity, don't recommend 100, 000 project. [00:14:30] If that is so outside of scope of what's going to solve their problem, you know, you still have to show up from a place of integrity, which I suspect that all of your listeners already are committed to doing that, right? This is what would attract them to listen to you and follow you. So they're already not going to recommend something that's out of. [00:14:50] You know, out of reach or out of scope or out of integrity, frankly, but when you say to somebody, you know, based on what you've shared, there are 3 ways that we could work together. We [00:15:00] could, and you're going to start at the top. You're going to say we could do the full package, you know, the full project. [00:15:06] It's going to get you everything that you want. And the pricing for that is this. You know, we could also kind of start in the middle where we could get most of the things you want to see how it's going and then, you know, whatever. And the price and now this is a smaller price and you go, or if you're just wanting the basic package just to get that first piece. [00:15:26] You know, done for you, then it's this price. So you always start top down. And the reason you do that is the way our brains work as humans. We come out of the womb already knowing how to grasp like babies already know how to grasp things, right? Like now. You ever help hold a baby and they get a hold of your hair like, you know, you know, they already like nobody had to teach them how to pull hair. [00:15:52] Like they know how to grasp. So as humans, we like to, we like to attach to things. So when you start at the [00:16:00] top and you work your way down, it's easier for people to make a decision that is a better decision for them because they don't like to have, they don't like to give up things. In order to get what they want, but on the flip side of this, the reason you don't start at the bottom and work your way up is because we don't like to pay more to get what we need. [00:16:21] Sarah: Yeah, I'm gonna say that again. We don't want to pay more to get what we need. So that's why we start from the top and work. So that's interesting because usually what I heard is, um, you know, sales coaches would say, oh, mention your price and then just. Like probably the highest price and then just stop talking and see what the reaction is where you are saying, no, give all the options starting from the top and then have a conversation around it. [00:16:58] Is that correct? [00:17:00] Well, [00:17:00] Nikki: uh, almost, I'm going to say almost, I'm going to, I'm going to, if I can just clarify a little bit around that. So. I'm totally fine. If I have a conversation with you, you tell me what you need. And I have a specific program that is going to meet your needs. I'm happy to say, you know, based on what you've shared, the program that is going to meet the things that you've talked about, it's going to get you this, this and this. [00:17:26] And 10, 000. Now, I'm If you clutch your pearls and go like, Oh, my God, 10, 000 sticky, that's a little rich for my blood, right? I might have missed the mark a little bit there with you. So I sometimes, you know, based on what people have shared, there are a couple different ways where, you know, a couple ways for them to get it. [00:17:52] So if you're going to lay out more than one option for somebody, don't ever give them more than three, Okay. Initially to make a decision [00:18:00] with, and when you do that, if you're going to say, you know, there's a couple of ways that I, you know, like just a basic question. So just to give you a real life example, if somebody said to me, you know, Nikki, what are the, what are the ways that you work with clients? [00:18:14] Have a lot of ways that I work with clients, but I'm never going to answer that question when with more than three answers So I'm gonna say, you know, I have private coaching clients I have classes that I offer and then I have a group coaching program of those three Which are you most interested in hearing more about now? [00:18:32] I haven't actually listed pricing But if they say what you know, what are the three ways or what other ways you work with clients? What's the pricing I could say? I have private coaching. It ranges from this to this. I have classes. They typically are priced at this. I have a group coaching program and it's a monthly. [00:18:50] You know, payment. And it's this of those three, which are you most interested in hearing more about? Because if I try to tell somebody all the ways I work with [00:19:00] them, I will overwhelm them and an overwhelmed mind is not going to buy. They're not going to make a decision. So I have to be the expert. I have to be the person that will stand in my place of authority and recommend because I've asked you the right questions. [00:19:18] Thank you. What's the right solution for you? [00:19:21] Sarah: So to come back to my question about, you know, do you state all three or just the one and then wait for an answer? Um, I guess it depends whether they have a very specific request and, you know, you basically already talked about something that is very. Fitting for their needs, then you would just offer that. [00:19:41] And then maybe from there, if they're like, Oh, that's a little bit high. Is there anything else we could do? Then you could offer your group coaching, for example. So it's really just kind of going with the flow. That's how I've always done it. And it feels good to be able to offer. Different solutions, [00:20:00] depending on, you know, depending on the budget that people have and then say, well, you know, maybe we can do this. [00:20:07] And sometimes I even come up with new offers and say, well, Okay. You know, I really want to help you because you're, you know, doing such good work for a cause that really is important to me. And then, you know, I'll come up with with a new offer or add them to a program as well as my 1 on 1 coaching things like that. [00:20:28] I think we can. One thing that I learned with pricing and selling is like, we are taking ourselves often too seriously. Like we, we think we have to be just, you know, rigid kind of business owners. And it's like, well, actually, you know, you, you can still make money and just be a bit more in the flow. Um, I don't know what you think about that, Nikki. [00:20:49] I [00:20:50] Nikki: agree with you 100%. I think, you know, um, if I could just comment on what I'm hearing you say, and you please correct me if this is not [00:21:00] in alignment, is that the sales, the sales conversation. Is a conversation, right? And so it has this back and forth flow. You shouldn't just be talking at people the whole time. [00:21:14] And so you should talk with and the way to talk with people oftentimes is to ask questions. So if you lay out an offer and somebody's like, Oh. That's a little bit more than what I was expecting, then my next thing I'm going to say to you isn't to shame you or try to push you into it. I'm going to follow up and say, well, what were you expecting? [00:21:36] Like, it's a conversation and then you come back at me and I say, well, I do have maybe a way we could get started together. And I do think as a, you know, depending on the size of your business and who's doing the selling in your business, if you're a solopreneur entrepreneur, like there is something about being a little nimble, you know, being, I always say my all time favorite quote is blessed are the flexible [00:22:00] for, they shall not be bent out of shape. [00:22:03] And the idea in your sales conversation. Is to have some flexibility, you know, if you identify the person I'm talking to right now is an ideal client, they definitely have a need and I feel compelled to want to serve them in some way, you know, I wouldn't develop a new product offering for every single conversation because then you're going to probably burn yourself out, frankly, in your business, but sometimes you can add a little tweak here and there, you know, every once in a while, somebody like I just had somebody yesterday. [00:22:34] Okay. I put out an offer on a training and somebody followed up with me and said, you know, Nikki, I really want to do this with you, but I can't start it, you know, until after the first of the year. And I said, well, I'm happy to wait, you know, like I, I didn't tell anybody else that, but this is what this person needs. [00:22:57] And so I'll do that for that person. Cause [00:23:00] I have the ability to make that decision in my business. Yeah, [00:23:04] Sarah: that so resonates. We also talked about humane payment plans in the community, uh, recently. And that's another thing that we feel strongly about. It's kind of this integrity piece where we, if we are safe ourselves, right, if we have enough to pay our bills. [00:23:23] And and yet someone is struggling a little bit and can't make the whole payment and then, you know, why would we make payment plans that are non humane where it's like, oh, now you have to pay 20 percent more just because you can't make the one full time payment. And so we were just discussing how can we make it a win win situation where it's like. [00:23:48] Yeah, I really want you to have this program or coaching or whatever it is. And yet, you know, there needs to be a huge trust and that trust [00:24:00] I now see is established already before, right? Obviously through your marketing, that's what humane marketing is all about, but even through the pricing, uh, like having these prices on your website. [00:24:13] That also creates trust because it's like, well, it's all up there, you know, it's all understood and clear and, um, yeah, I think there's a lot of integrity to that. Um, yeah, just curious what you think about payment plans and if you have any thoughts on that. [00:24:30] Nikki: I love the idea of payment plans. As long as it's still like you said, it's, it's not, it's not hurting your business, you know, from a cash flow standpoint, it's not causing you to not be able to pay your vendors or pay your team or something like that. [00:24:44] Then I think there's nothing wrong with a payment plan. As a matter of fact, I love payment plans. And even the program that I mentioned yesterday that I offered when you go to the, you know, to the Page to sign up right underneath there. There's an option for a [00:25:00] payment plan. Sometimes I promote payment plans heavily and mark, you know, and I'm marketing an offer. [00:25:06] Sometimes I don't. I just put them, you know, subtly on the page for somebody because if they've clicked with an interest and they've shown some interest by clicking on the page and wanting to learn more about whatever the offer is, Yeah. And if there's some part of them, it's like, dang, I'd really like to do this, but I don't have this, you know, I don't have that much money right now available to spend on, you know, coaching with Dickie or whatever they see like, oh, there's a payment plan there. [00:25:33] And for me, it's. It's fine. Like, I'm, I'm happy to do that. Um, I will say, you know, just to comment on payment plans. One, one, one thing that I think sometimes can be a limiting, um, belief around payment plans for entrepreneurs, for business owners is they think that the payment plan has to be the same amount. [00:25:58] Over a certain [00:26:00] period of time. So, for instance, I'm going to do a payment plan. That means I've got to break it up into, you know, it's a 3 month program. So it has to be 3 of the exact same payments and and that to me isn't always the case. Sometimes if a lot of the work, the heavy lifting is done in that first, you know, part of working together, I often will give people the option of paying 50 percent up front because I know that my like the majority of the work that I'm doing, the really heavy lifting and the stuff that costs my business, the money, you know, to it. [00:26:36] You know, pay for whatever the extras are, the stuff that comes like I need to be able to cover those costs. But then what I'll do is then I will split up the other 50 percent over the next two months or whatever. Like there's so make sure that you're giving yourself a little bit of flexibility in your payment plans to you don't want to make it confusing or crazy. [00:26:56] But, you know, I just had a client where I was coaching her around this [00:27:00] and she was like, it's so hard for me to do a payment plan because of all the costs involved in that first month. And I was like, well, what if we collected 50%? And she was like, would people do that? And I was like, People do it with me all the time. [00:27:13] Let's try it. And then she came back and she's like, they were so happy to do it that way. And I was like, yeah, again, blessed are the flexible. You don't have to be bent out of shape, be willing to do things that work for your business, but also make it easy for people to say yes to hiring you. That's a good [00:27:30] Sarah: reminder, because again, the humane approach is not just serving your clients. [00:27:36] It's also serving yourself. And so it really is important that you don't get into trouble because you're, you know, making everything possible for them, where then you are struggling in the back. So, so it's really just, yeah, having the conversation and saying, look, I'd love to offer you this. Uh, but this is what I need, right. [00:27:57] And then have this conversation. And I think [00:28:00] it really comes with this trust building that is so important. And I think that's also where you can, you just said, you know, you wouldn't have offered to wait to just anybody who will ask, but this person, that's what they needed. And so you're like, yeah, I'm happy to do that. [00:28:19] So in a way it's like, well, just because you have a standard program or a standard fee doesn't mean you have to exactly do the same thing for everybody because, um, especially, you know, in the service business, we are, we're in the human business. And so we should be talking to people about these things. [00:28:41] We shouldn't just say this is. You know how it is and that's it. And yet so often that's what we're taught in sales. It's like, no, you come up with your price and that's how it is. And you know, no flexibility at all. So, yeah, yeah, appreciate your input [00:28:57] Nikki: here. Yeah. It, is it okay if I just add [00:29:00] like one little piece to this idea of payment plan in the conversation of the sale? [00:29:04] Right. Um, So one of the things that I think is important also to remember is so if you're having a conversation with a prospective client and you talk about the offer and they say, Oh, my gosh. You know, that sounds perfect for me, but really, I just don't have the funds right now to do that. One of the cautions that I would say is don't default to the payment plan conversation check to see if the payment plan conversation is appropriate. [00:29:35] So I was. I always look at things of like asking permission. So instead of, you know, somebody pushes back on price, if you go right into the payment plan option without getting their permission to talk about it, it, it can come off a little salesy and aggressive. So when somebody pushes back to me on price, I will usually say, now, if I was able to offer you a payment plan, would that be something [00:30:00] you'd be interested in considering? [00:30:01] And would that make it more feasible for you? Right, so I don't go into the payment plan because if they say no, Nikki, even with a payment plan, I just couldn't do it, then I'm going to respect that and I'm going to pull back. But if you go right into payment plan again, it sounds like you're kind of ignoring what they said to you that they can't afford it. [00:30:21] But I'm glad you brought that up. [00:30:23] Sarah: Yeah, that's so important because yeah, we're not trying to push the payment plan somebody. Right? Because it's like this. You know, praise no is an answer. And, and, and it's really, that's what it is. It's like, if they just don't want to, or can't, then, then we should respect that. [00:30:43] And a payment plan is not going to solve that. That's so true. It's a very different energy when they asked for the payment plan, whether one kind of. You know, bring on the topic and actually want to kind of push them towards the payment plan. I totally [00:31:00] agree. I don't think I ever bring it up. Um, yeah, I, I would probably rather go, you know, offer another solution, like the group coaching or something like that. [00:31:12] And then maybe they would come back and say, actually, you know, do you offer a payment plan? So, because I think they're quite. No, now, and so sometimes people, you know, often people ask me about payment plans. So yeah, that's a good distinction. Thanks so much for for bringing that in. Yeah. [00:31:30] Nikki: Thank you for letting me. [00:31:33] Sarah: Um, anything else you want to share about. Prices and payments and selling conversations, um, shared a lot of things, but anything else that comes to mind? [00:31:45] Nikki: Well, one of the things that I want to, um, maybe just touch on in case this is helpful for your audience is. There's a difference between being pushy and aggressive in a sales conversation versus making it easy for somebody to [00:32:00] make a decision. [00:32:01] So I, I find that a lot of times when people are uncomfortable with sales, they're hesitant to ask somebody to move forward or invite them to take that next step with them. And. I want to just say in a really loving kind way that that's your stuff and you need to set it aside. That's your mindset stuff because your job is to make it really easy for people to make decisions. [00:32:25] Doesn't mean the decision's always going to go in your favor. But you still want to make sure that if you are talking to somebody and they've got a need and they've got, they've expressed interest in some way, please, please, please make sure that you ask them for their business so that they can decide in the moment whether or not it's the right next step for them. [00:32:47] But if you don't ask them, Don't assume that they'll decide because our brains are lazy and we have decision fatigue and we're overwhelmed. And so if you don't make it easy for somebody, a lot of times they'll be like, Oh, I'm just going to think [00:33:00] about it. But then they actually never think about it because they have too many other things to think about. [00:33:05] And then they don't ever get the solution to the problem or the need that they have. So make sure you always follow up in, in the appropriate time in a conversation. And go ahead and ask for the sale, ask for the business and then be quiet and let them say one way or the other. [00:33:22] Sarah: Yeah, thanks for that reminder. [00:33:25] One, one thing that also just, I remember there's a question that I always ask about expectations because we talked, you mentioned integrity a few times and I do. And just earlier, before I call, I had another email or LinkedIn message from someone who bought a big package and was disillusioned because of, you know, promises that were not kept. [00:33:47] And so I think it's really important that piece of, um. Expectations to ask in a gentle sales conversation. Well, what's your expectations for our work together, you know, to really [00:34:00] understand what they're expecting and what you can actually be in full integrity deliver, because that again. It helps you understand where there are and what their actual beliefs are. [00:34:13] And it also helps this trust building again. And then it's just kind of like, you know, it's, it's setting the stage for a beautiful collaboration. Then have not addressing it. And the person thinking, oh, I'm going to get 20 new clients from this and. You, meanwhile, not thinking that at all, right? You're like, no, this is, you know, I can't promise that. [00:34:35] So just putting it out into the open and having a conversation about that is really important, I think. I [00:34:42] Nikki: love that you said that and commented on that. It's you know, you never want to you never want to over promise and under deliver. But at the same time, you don't if you don't understand what your client has in their mind because they haven't been given the opportunity to articulate it. [00:34:59] You [00:35:00] may. In inadvertently leave them feeling like you over promised and under delivered and how Disappointing not only is that to them But also for you and it starts to get in your head and you start to think well Maybe i'm not as good as I think I am or maybe my offer isn't the right offer Like all of that negative mindset could have been avoided doing exactly what you just said sarah. [00:35:23] I love that so much [00:35:26] Sarah: This has been wonderful. Thanks so much for For being here and doing such good work. Nikki, please do tell us where people can find you. And I believe you have a, an offer [00:35:36] Nikki: for us as well. I do. Thank you so much for having me. Um, I always like to give a gift when I get to come and be with somebody and spend some time in front of their audience. [00:35:46] So I have a course, it's a really short little training, and it talks about the five steps to a sales conversation. That's my signature framework. It's called mastering the sales conversation, and it will give you the five steps [00:36:00] and what to say or do in those five steps that isn't, it's not script. It's teaching you how to show up and be your authentic, genuine self in those conversations. [00:36:09] So you can get that by going to your sales maven. com forward slash humane. And that'll be there for you. It's free. You can download it. And once you do that, then we'll be connected. [00:36:20] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Which, uh, social platform are you usually, uh, most active on, [00:36:27] Nikki: Nikki? I tend to be the most active on LinkedIn and Instagram, but I also have a podcast too called Sales Maven. [00:36:34] So since you're, you know, these are your listeners, if they are looking for another podcast to check out, I would encourage them to check out the Sales Maven [00:36:42] Sarah: podcast. Wonderful. Yeah. And as you know, I always have a last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:36:51] Nikki: You know what i'm most grateful for today is that the weather here where I live in Boise, Idaho is starting to shift And i'm so excited for fall And we're [00:37:00] starting to let go of some of those really hot days. [00:37:03] So i'm so grateful for the change in the season [00:37:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. And over here it's like an Indian summer. It's still warm, but definitely crisp in the morning and at night. So that's lovely. Yeah. Wonderful. Thanks so much for hanging out Nikki. [00:37:19] Nikki: Thanks for having me. [00:37:26] Sarah: Did you take some notes? I hope you got great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Nikki and her work at yoursalesmaven. com. And she's also offering us a free resource about being our confidence in the sales conversation and you'll find that at your sales maven dot com forward slash humane. [00:37:49] And as always, if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle where we have deep conversations about marketing, [00:38:00] but also about selling and pricing and. Humane payment plans, and all of this good stuff. You can find out more at humane. marketing. com forward slash circle. [00:38:11] You'll find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing. com forward slash H M 1 7 5 on this beautiful page. You also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation. [00:38:33] We are marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, we venture into the 'P' of People as part of our ongoing exploration of the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Join me in a conversation with Cara Steinmann, the visionary founder of the Ravel Collective and host of the Ravel Radio podcast. Together, we delve into the art of authentic networking, emphasizing the importance of core values, unconventional approaches on LinkedIn, and the profound impact of empathy on your business relationships. Discover new insights that could transform the way you approach human connections and meaningful networking. In this episode, Cara and I discuss: Her experience with traditional networking and how she redefined it How to bring our core values to our networking How Cara uses LinkedIn to create connections, but not with a lead-generation mindset Networking for introverts How to be intentional when networking The importance of quality over quantity And so much more Ep 174 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hi, Cara. So nice to meet. Hi, you. [00:00:04] Cara: Good to see you, Sarah. How's it going? I'm good, thank you. [00:00:08] Sarah: Thanks for having me. Yeah, I really look forward to this conversation with you. I was on your podcast recently and we really [00:00:15] Cara: we're [00:00:16] Sarah: aligned, so I'm glad we have you on the humane part, marketing podcast, and talking about networking. [00:00:23] Right? So that's kind of your. Specialty and, uh, yeah, I want to just go dive right in. So tell me how did you come to make networking part of your specialty? And how did you build a community around networking? Why is networking so important to [00:00:45] Cara: you? It was kind of an accident because I don't really think of myself as a networking person and I think a lot of people probably feel that way because there's this connotation around networking that it's sort of like very businessy and very like you imagine yourself in a [00:01:00] room with very professional people and you're handing out business cards and you're talking about things that are very business related, but I think in my life, uh, in my career, I've sort of acted more as just a connector. [00:01:12] I think of it as connecting with people and building relationships. And that's usually not on a grand scale. It's one person at a time, usually in a one to one conversation. And it doesn't feel like what you would imagine networking to be. So I think maybe a little shift in the way we think about networking can help a lot of us who don't like that whole, you know, big corporate business vibe and really care more about. [00:01:36] One to one relationships and what goes on beyond the business. Yeah. [00:01:40] Sarah: That's already such a, a shift when you say relationship building versus networking. Mm-hmm. has that term work in it. Right. And so it feels like I'm the one going into this crowd and I have to work my way through it. Like, and, and yeah. [00:01:58] Collect the business cards [00:02:00] and you know, it's kind of like, yeah. [00:02:01] Cara: That, and I think. Be I think expanding our understanding of network be working beyond or even relationship building beyond thinking of who we are going to build relationships with to thinking about who we can connect so they can build relationships, because then you expand your network exponentially because then they also. [00:02:23] They also consider you part of their and both of you're part of both of their network. And then they're connecting. And then when they meet new people, they want to introduce you. So it's kind of kind of like weaving a web of connection with people that you genuinely want to talk to and spend time with and respect. [00:02:37] Sarah: It's funny you guys use that term weaving because in our community, uh, we have. One of the calls that is kind of like a networking call, um, but we actually call it net weaving. So I love that it's this idea of, yeah, we're together and we're getting to know one another, but we're weaving, uh, these [00:03:00] relationships. [00:03:00] Cara: And yeah, I love that. Yeah, we unravel. We have connection calls that are just to talk about whatever we want to talk about and connect. We had one yesterday and a bunch of us were on there just talking about what vacations we're taking and a little bit about business and what we're looking at challenges right now. [00:03:14] And then we have a small, small business mastermind where we all break off and then we have a happy hour once a month. And otherwise we're just hanging out in the community, getting to know each other and asking business related questions and personal questions. And, you know, it's about, I think it's a little bit deeper than just. [00:03:30] What do you do and who do you do it for? Like the pitch does, the elevator pitch doesn't matter so much when you know somebody. Yeah. [00:03:38] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. You really addressed something there. It's this superficiality that I always hated at networking events that I felt like people were only listening to themselves talk and preparing what they're going to say next. [00:03:55] Listening to me and, you know, really having a conversation. And then [00:04:00] of course you add, you know, this was prior to COVID you add kind of like, you know, surrounding noise to it and you don't really hear one another and it was just [00:04:10] like [00:04:10] Cara: a nightmare. It is. It's a nightmare prior to COVID. I, I always loathed. [00:04:17] In person networking events, conferences and things like that, because it just, I knew I was going to end up in situations talking to people who really weren't necessarily a very strategic fit for like a strategic partner or referral partner, and that they would, like you said, just be waiting for their opportunity to say what they needed to say about their business and having a lot of surface level conversations because I think a lot of business culture requires you to leave the personal at home. [00:04:41] And I don't want to do that. I think we bring ourselves to our work and to our business, our core values, the way we operate. And I would rather, like we were talking about introverts before we hit record. Right. And I don't really consider myself an introvert, but when it comes to those kinds of things, I really act like one, because I would much rather have an [00:05:00] intimate conversation about things that matter than talk about, you know, What you do, what you do for people, because that's gonna, if you're an entrepreneur, you're going to find that out. [00:05:08] Anyway, we can't help but talk about that. Right. [00:05:10] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, no, it's so true. It's these deeper, meaningful connections and conversations and actually. Also pre COVID, um, there was this, uh, movement on, on LinkedIn, uh, called the LinkedIn local events. Yeah. And so me who always hated networking all of the sudden, I was like, well, these events kind of had a different tone because they, they came with topics and they were really open to this idea of. [00:05:40] Bring yourself to the conversation, bring the human side to the conversation. And so I actually put my hand up together with, um, another, uh, local friend here. And we started creating these LinkedIn local networking events. And, and we created themes, you know, where people would pick [00:06:00] cards and have really deep conversations and people loved it, people were like, Oh, this. [00:06:05] So different. Right. And then every now and then the person would walk in and you could tell, you know, they were like business suit and they probably had their stack of business cards and they're like, what is this? Why [00:06:17] Cara: are people doing here? It's funny. Cause I had, I used to host a speed networking event in Ravel and, um. [00:06:24] I actually, I learned this from a coaching program that I was in and they would do a lot of like more personal questions. And so I love that we only did it once a month and I was like, we need to do this more often. And so the challenge was calling it speed networking because what we actually do when you get there is break up into small little breakout rooms. [00:06:40] And I would. I would offer questions or topic starters, like what's the weirdest thing in your fridge right now? Like things that don't have anything to do with business, but you end up deciding kind of who you really mesh with and who you want to take that relationship further with and really get to know about them and their business and how you can support one another. [00:06:57] Cause you don't really want to support people you don't [00:07:00] care about. Right. So that's kind of the first step, I think, is deciding who you want to care about. Right. [00:07:05] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Before you also addressed core values. So, so huge. What do you think are the, you know, the core, or I guess there's two questions. What are the core values that we should bring to networking and why do they [00:07:21] Cara: matter so much? [00:07:23] I think we should bring our own core values to networking because the truth is we are all I like to think of them as core drivers because I think corporate culture has kind of ruined the term core values for us. We think of the little poster on the wall that doesn't really mean anything. But if you really get into your core drivers, what it means is it's what motivates you. [00:07:40] It's what drives your behavior. So my core values are freedom, authenticity and connection. And I notice when I'm in a funk or when I'm out of sorts, it's because something is going against my core values. So if you're going to network, I think you should network with people ideally who share your core values. [00:07:58] And then you'll [00:08:00] naturally network in a very comfortable way. Like when I started Ravel, I very intentionally invited, I seeded the community with women who I knew shared at least one of my core values, knowing that birds of a feather flock together. And so it worked really well because now we're up around a hundred women and anyone who's referred someone has always been an amazing fit. [00:08:18] I have to do very little background on the applicants now because if I know Maggie int introduced someone else to the group, I know Maggie and I know she's not going to introduce somebody to the group who's not a good fit because her core values align really well with mine. Yeah. So I think that makes it just so much easier to predict how someone's going to behave and what you can expect from them. [00:08:40] Sarah: Yeah, and it really defines the community, [00:08:42] Cara: right? Yeah, it makes it easier to hold that community in a shape, like my goal when I started Ravel was to create a community, just create a space and hold it in a shape, such that people would feel comfortable and vulnerable enough to connect with one another and really get to know each other. [00:08:58] And by inviting the. [00:09:00] Types of people who would be strategically aligned to be most likely to refer one another, like complimentary service providers. They're all B2B service entrepreneurs and they're women. So they have a lot in common and, you know, financial professionals who serve agencies can network with coaches who serve agencies. [00:09:17] And because they share core values, they're going to probably get along pretty well. And it makes it easy to build that kind of rapport that they need to. Want to connect with one another and see what's up in their business and say, Hey, you should talk to so and so. So it's like kind of building relationships with like the happy by product that you get referrals in business works really well. [00:09:36] Yeah. [00:09:37] Sarah: That makes a lot of sense. Usually we hear this this idea of quality over quantity. Um, you just mentioned your communities about 100 people. Um, so, so what do you think about quality over quantity in terms of the networking? Is it a, is it a numbers game or is [00:10:00] it a quality game or is it something [00:10:01] Cara: in between? [00:10:02] I think it's quality over quantity, 100%. And I think it's evolving, honestly, constantly, right? Like, so if you're, cause your business evolves, maybe you shift who you serve or how you serve that person. Um, and so maybe you have a handful of really great referral partners and. you shift your business a little bit. [00:10:21] You might have to, some of those referral partners, it might not be as strategically aligned anymore. And maybe they stay, you stay friends, but you might start looking around for different strategic partners who might be more well aligned, but it's not like you have to shift your whole network. You just start networking with a few different people and start figuring out who, who fits with you. [00:10:38] Um, and I think like a hundred is a lot of women. Like, I don't, I don't intimately know every member of the community anymore. When it was like 20 women, it was like, It was really easy. And, but what we've done is we've separated into smaller groups too. So we have a Slack channel where we have different topics. [00:10:55] We have rabble travel, and we have ADHD all day and moms. And [00:11:00] so we have these different things that we care about. And the women who gravitate to those channels tend to get to know each other well enough that. Even if they're not strategically aligned to refer one another as well as some others would be, they kind of cross pollinate between the community, the micro communities within the chant, within the community. [00:11:17] And then they say, Oh, you know who you should get to know. So there's a lot of paying it forward, introducing people to other people. That is such a, an underrated gift that you can give someone is to say, I think I know somebody who you need to know. Who would, you'd benefit from knowing each other. I mean, making a connection between two people who you think would get along is such a gift. [00:11:38] Yeah. [00:11:39] Sarah: Yeah. So true. Um, you mentioned a few times this word strategic, and I guess it's for you, it's like, well, there's a strategy to networking because again, as an introvert, This idea of networking can sometimes feel so overwhelming because we think, well, does that mean I have to network with [00:12:00] just anybody, you know, so it's like, Oh my God, I don't have the time to network with just anybody. [00:12:07] So, so what, what is a good strategy, um, that feels, you know, empathic and yet very strategic. Um, and I guess time conscious as well. [00:12:20] Cara: Yeah. Yeah. I think. Um, that's probably how most people think of it is just like, it's very overwhelming. You have to make a lot of people think there's a list you have to make and you have to contact X number of people a day. [00:12:31] And that feels very impersonal and kind of, um, like required, which doesn't feel good for a lot of people. Um, I've approached it differently. Like I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. Um, just for networking, though, I don't spend a lot of time scrolling on LinkedIn, but if I find somebody offline, say I'm listening to a podcast or reading a book or find somebody's website online while I'm Googling or going down a rabbit hole of some kind, and I feel like they are strategically aligned with my business, meaning either they're, uh, [00:13:00] Complimentary service provider. [00:13:00] So we serve the same client, but we do different things, or we are a shoulder niche peer, meaning that we do different things or do we do the same sort of thing, but for different clients. So maybe I serve, um, the financial industry and they serve, um, like agencies or something like that. And so we can refer one another because we don't really serve the same ideal client, and this requires knowing what you want and what you're good at. [00:13:24] I don't think we are all suited to do, you know, the same thing. We're, we're all so different. I think it also, I think it's a successful networking in this way requires that you don't believe in competition. We're all so different. There's so much, so many factors that we can own as, you know, authentic to who we are that maybe somebody else doesn't want to own. [00:13:45] And if we know ourselves really well, we can understand what we do best and who we are best suited to serve. And then there's just no way that somebody else is going to bring exactly the same thing to the table that we are. So. We have to kind of get rid of that idea first. And then we're free to [00:14:00] network with people who look like they do something similar to what we do, but probably don't do exactly what we do or for the same person. [00:14:07] Um, and then you can also look for people who are, um, centers of influence coaches for, if you serve entrepreneurs, maybe you're wanting to network with coaches who serve entrepreneurs, and maybe you're a done for you service provider or something like that. So they're in a position to refer you there. [00:14:24] The people you're looking for to network with are the ones who are most likely to be in a position to refer you. So not somebody who's working in a totally different industry with clients that aren't even related to you. Um, but I don't, I don't think you have to go like search for them. I think you can listen to podcasts that are interesting to you and just start taking note of. [00:14:47] Someone who's interesting to you, who you think you might like and say, is that person in a position to refer me perhaps, and then you can just reach out to that person individually. I usually on LinkedIn because it's the easiest place to get [00:15:00] really connected with somebody. Yeah, [00:15:03] Sarah: so the idea is really to find referral partners. [00:15:07] and connect with them. [00:15:09] Cara: Yeah. And to be open about it and say, Hey, I think we have a lot in common. I think we might benefit from knowing each other. Um, I like you. I like what you're doing. Let's connect and just say hi. Mm-hmm. . [00:15:20] Sarah: Yeah. Do you then stop at the, you know, first conversation or how do you. Because it, you know, we always say in networking, you have to stay top of mind. [00:15:31] So how do you stay top of mind with this [00:15:33] Cara: person then? I don't think everyone is going to stay top of mind all the time, right? Like, you're gonna, you're gonna meet a few people who you really click with. And a few people who you don't really click with. One of the reasons that I started Ravel was because it is hard to stay top of mind when we're all busy and we're all running around doing all our stuff all day long. [00:15:52] And I don't, I'm not the kind of person, let's do, we have to do what works for us, right? If you're an organized person and you like lists and you use a [00:16:00] CRM, maybe you can stay top of mind with people in your own strategic way. I can't do that. So I put everybody in a container that I like so that I can stay connected with them in a container. [00:16:12] We, we naturally stay connected because we're having calls or somebody is asking a question and we're learning more about their business that way. And we're commenting and sharing our expertise. And so I think it's about proximity. And then if you're connected with them on LinkedIn and you're following them, you might see them. [00:16:26] It's like, The top of mind thing I think is more about the mere exposure effect than, than the top, than staying top of mind. It's just staying in front of someone who you want to, to stay connected with. And you can do that in a lot of different ways just by commenting on their stuff on LinkedIn. They see you, you learn a little bit more maybe about what they do and it don't think it has to take a long time. [00:16:46] It can take five, 10 minutes to, to go on. And in the case of LinkedIn, I would say like a lot of people suggest. That you'd be connected to a ton of people and follow a ton of people. But I find that really overwhelming. So [00:17:00] I only follow and want to be connected with the people that I really want to stay connected with because then my feed isn't really overwhelming and I can just, I can see the people that I want to stay in touch with and I can comment and like, and stay. [00:17:12] In front of them. And then they remember me. [00:17:15] Sarah: Yeah. So, so, so does that mean that you actually, you know, hide some of the updates of people who you don't want to see anymore, just so not, not to. [00:17:26] Cara: I just unfollow them or disconnect. I am a little bit ruthless that way because it's, we only have so much time and I don't really want to be connected with people that don't align with me really, really well. [00:17:36] So, you know, when I. I've been on LinkedIn for a long, long time, but my, my career has evolved. You know, if the past 15 years I'm doing very different things than I was in the very beginning. And so I, when I decided to reinvest in LinkedIn as a way to connect with people, I went in and I, I had, you know, thousands of connections and I got rid of all but 400 and some odd. [00:17:57] Because it was like, if I don't want to have coffee with this [00:18:00] person, I don't need to be on LinkedIn with them. And perhaps that's different if you're not an entrepreneur and you're trying to get a job. I don't know about that, but for my situation where I want to spend time connecting and networking with people who care about the same things I care about. [00:18:18] That means there's a lot of people I don't need to connect with. And I don't want to waste my time looking at their stuff. if I don't care about it. Right. And they don't know, so it's not mean or anything. [00:18:33] Sarah: Um, yeah, it's really interesting to, to see how, you know, usually we always hear, Oh, use LinkedIn for lead generation, right? [00:18:43] Yeah, that's not how you're looking at it. You're like, well, I, Only want the people I care about. And so they, yes, they might be potential clients or they're, you know, some other level of connection or [00:18:59] [00:19:00] network. [00:19:00] Cara: That's how you. I think that's a giant, you're speaking to something that's really important that I think a lot of people miss. [00:19:05] It's a giant mistake to go into like a community or a networking container and think you're going to sell to the people in that container. You're the benefit of being in a container with a hundred women. Is the connection to the 150 other people they know that they might be able to connect you with. [00:19:24] And yes, we buy from each other. I've purchased products and services from tons of the women inside Ravel and we buy stuff. We hire each other all the time, but it's not because we're sharing our offers and trying to convince each other to buy from us. It's because we happen to know each other really well, and we have a problem and we know that person can solve it. [00:19:42] But most of the time we're introducing someone. To another person, like I'll run. I talked to a friend of mine, or I go to an event or something, and I hear somebody has a problem. And I will say, I know somebody you should talk to. Let me connect you with so and so because I know what she does. And I like her and I know she'll do a good job. [00:19:59] Right. [00:20:00] So we're, we're building the relationships. We're not selling to people and LinkedIn is You know, a breeding ground for people doing lead gen on LinkedIn. We should be doing strategic networking. [00:20:11] Sarah: Yeah, I think that that's really the, the, the difference is not thinking of everybody who is somehow looking like a client just because they, you know, have a human body that, that you think of them as your ideal client. [00:20:29] And especially if you then think of a community where Uh, you know, the minute you bring that kind of energy into a community, the community is basically, yeah, it's destined to [00:20:41] Cara: fail. I've seen it happen in Ravel a couple of times where a couple, where a couple of people have, you know, crossed that line between, Hey guys, here's what I'm doing. [00:20:49] Check it out. Cause we want to share, we want to share what we're doing and we have a space for that, you know, but, um, a couple of people have, you know, gotten a little bit salesy with it. And it's not that they [00:21:00] get slapped down or anything. It's just that nobody responds. Right. It's just not something people are looking for in a community where we're trying to build relationships. [00:21:10] But what we do is we have calls and we connect with one another and we learn what's going on. And then we will often share on another person's behalf. One of our, one of our members, Cara, Cara Hoosier, she's getting ready to publish a book and it's really exciting because she's been through an incredible journey to get where she is. [00:21:25] It's called burnt out to lit up. And it's about. preventing yourself from burning out and what to do when you get there. And she's getting ready to launch this. She's looking for people to help her, you know, do reviews and read her book. And I was super excited for her. So instead of her getting on there and she's saying, Hey guys, look at what I did. [00:21:43] I said, can I share this with the community? Because it's really awesome. And she was like, sure. And so I said, you guys look at this, our member, our fellow friend here. is publishing a book. This is so exciting. Who wants to help her? I know that anybody else in here who is publishing a book would want the community to help them too. [00:21:59] [00:22:00] And so it's a very different message when you lift up another woman, as opposed to saying, look at me. It look at her sounds a lot different than look at me. Sure. So we help each other that way. Yeah. [00:22:12] Sarah: At the same time you as the host. What would you do? And this is not to do with networking, but just as a, you know, fellow community host, what would you do with a member, you know, several times trespasses that kind of unspoken rule that we're not selling in this community? [00:22:34] What would you do? [00:22:36] Cara: We had one instance in two years. In the last two years, we've had one instance where someone really kind of did cross the line. And I wasn't online that morning, but I got a bunch of messages from other community members who were like, Hey, we don't like this. Like we got to do something about this. [00:22:52] Um, and they were upset for me because she was trying to poach a bunch of members into a different community, which I think is fine actually, because [00:23:00] it's, I mean, I don't think poaching is fine, but I think women should have more than one community. They serve different purposes. I. intentionally keep Ravel at a very reasonable price because I want to belong to many communities, and I know that other women do too. [00:23:13] Um, but the way she went about it was really kind of gross. And so I had to respond to that because the community was saying, this feels gross and we don't want to be around this. And so I did ask, I said, we're going to go ahead and Remove you because this is not how we operate in here. I wish you know, but bless and release This might just not be the right place for you Which is important to remember because there are people have different core values people believe different things They operate different ways and just because she doesn't operate the way that we want to operate doesn't mean there's not a place Where that's totally fine for people to do, bless and release. [00:23:46] Um, so it's really more of like the community managing itself. I don't moderate and I don't tell them what they can and can't do. [00:23:54] Sarah: So, yeah, but in a way it's beautiful to have them, you know, kind of [00:24:00] show up and say, Hey, this is not how, this is not how we run here. [00:24:05] Cara: And yeah. And yeah. And that's my whole goal with the community is I don't, I'm not a coach. [00:24:10] I don't. Sell them anything other than the place inside the community, like the space. And so that's what, how I view it is. And I mean, we're kind of getting away from networking into community at this point, but I view it as myself just holding space in a particular shape. And that's my job is to make sure this play, this space is safe and a good place for people to be vulnerable and build relationships. [00:24:31] And if they can't do that, I'm not doing my job. So it has to be a safe space online. Yeah, yeah, [00:24:39] Sarah: that's beautiful. Yeah, we kind of meshed community with networking, but that's what [00:24:45] Cara: you're, that's what it is, right? Yeah, it, if when you're networking, you're building community. It just may not have a specific container it lives in. [00:24:54] Sarah: Yeah. And I also think. If we're changing that [00:25:00] term of networking into net weaving, then that's what we're really doing in a community is weaving a web together because the whole definition of a community is people being connected with each other. Not just to you as the host, right? [00:25:17] Cara: Totally. Yeah. And, and I, and this is why I use Slack, but I pay for the analytics. [00:25:23] I could use it for free, but I want to see what's happening behind the scenes, which is valuable because more than 50 percent of the conversations that are happening inside the community are in the DMs. And I know I'm not having that many conversations. There are thousands of conversations happening during the month. [00:25:36] And I know I'm not having that many. So there are a lot of private conversations happening and partnerships. Um, I introduced a couple of gals recently who are now partnering in business and, and they're super excited and doing some really amazing things. And I know that has nothing to do with me, but we're weaving. [00:25:54] These connections, not just for us, but for other people as well. And I think not, you don't even have [00:26:00] to, like, we can think of containers as smaller things, even text threads between two people or three people. Like if I have several people I want to connect with, because we all live locally, we're on a text thread together and the three of us send funny memes to one another. [00:26:12] And it doesn't have to do with business all the time. Yeah, [00:26:16] Sarah: I agree with that. It can also be more fun, right? It [00:26:18] Cara: should be more fun. Don't you think we should have more fun? I need more fun. [00:26:25] Sarah: Um, Yeah, maybe, maybe that's a good way to close with the, with the fun networking. Um, but maybe just also for people who right now, you know, there's so many communities out there yet, yet they're like, well, I don't either, I don't have the funds or I just can't decide which one to join. [00:26:45] So how can you start networking with that community as, or with that community notion without being in a community? What kind of advice would [00:26:55] Cara: you give? Um, I would say, I would say just [00:27:00] start connecting with people you enjoy. I listen to a lot of podcasts and I reach out to people who I think are excellent, either hosts or, um, interviewees, guests. [00:27:10] And I just tell them, I really, I like just start, start connecting directly with people that you admire, or you think have something interesting to say that you align with. Um, because like, there's that thing homophily, we're attracted to things that are similar to what we love or, or who we are. And so we're, they're going to be attracted to you. [00:27:28] If you share something either, I mean, location's really obvious, but beyond that, like core values or a mission or a purpose or something like that, like, I think you and I initially got connected on LinkedIn long, long ago, because I heard your podcast. And I was like, I, you're doing awesome things. We need to be connected. [00:27:45] And like, it didn't go anywhere for a long time. We had a little back and forth on, on LinkedIn, but eventually here we are trading podcast interviews. And so I think being in it for the long game and having conversations in the DMs, not expecting every [00:28:00] conversation to go somewhere, but being open to it going somewhere. [00:28:04] Yeah. [00:28:04] Sarah: And probably also not coming with this expectation that. Everyone you reach out to is gonna open your, their calendar [00:28:13] Cara: to you, you know, like, yeah, like when we connected initially, I was not expecting a one to one call. I, we live across the country, across the world from one another and we're both busy and eventually maybe we connect, but I genuinely just wanted to tell you that I really like what you're doing. [00:28:30] And I think that's people want to hear that it's people are open to hearing that you agree with them and that you like what they're doing. And if that's all it is, you've put some good energy out in the world and you can leave it at that. Right, [00:28:41] Sarah: exactly. It doesn't doesn't have to become a lead generation. [00:28:45] Cara: Yeah, it doesn't have to even become like a really intense networking like relationship there. We're going to have this whole gamut of closeness in our network, right? And we don't have the capacity to be really close. With a bunch of bunch of people like [00:29:00] 510 people, we're going to be really close with. [00:29:02] Um, and if we're all running in roughly the same circles, there's going to be opportunities for collaboration and referrals and those things. So it's a little bit of a leap of faith, but you got to just trust that if you're doing good work and you're helping people and people know you do it, that they're going to tell somebody exactly [00:29:20] Sarah: plant those seeds. [00:29:21] Yes, that's wonderful. Well, do you tell us a bit more about rattle and your community [00:29:28] Cara: and where people can find it? Yeah. The website is ravelcollective. com and it's for women B2B service entrepreneurs. So financial professionals, lots of marketers, content writers, stuff like that. Consultants. We've got some coaches, some, um, coaches for women entrepreneurs, and it's just a networking community, a really casual networking community where we Get to know each other. [00:29:50] A bunch of us are going to Mexico in a month together. I haven't met three of them, but I, and it's not an official event. I just said, Hey, I'm going to go to Mexico for a week and [00:30:00] do some like 2024 business planning. If anybody wants to join me, I've rented this house. And so it's not, you know, we probably won't talk business all the time, but. [00:30:09] It'll be fun. So we're kind of trying to put some of the fun and like person to person relationship back into business so that we can rely on, I don't know, our, our relationships to sustain us instead of, you know, just relying on ourselves. So yeah, it's 39 a month and it's month to month and it's just a space that I'm holding for women who want to build more professional relationships. [00:30:34] Sarah: We'll make sure to link to it. I always have one last question, uh, Cara, and that's, what are you grateful for today or this week, this month? [00:30:45] Cara: Oh my goodness. I think I'm most grateful for my family this week. It's there's a lot of, there's a lot of lonely people out there and I have a wonderful husband and a, an amazing son and I'm really [00:31:00] grateful for them. [00:31:02] Wonderful. [00:31:03] Thank you for having me.

Today's conversation fits under the P of Personal Power If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. (If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps). It's time for another short solo episode. This time I'd like to share a bit more about the 2nd P of Personal Power. I'll address: Why it's key to know your Personal Power in Humane Marketing How defining your core values dictates how you show up in the world What other personality assessments you can use to learn more about who you are How all this information helps you understand your Unique Holistic Marketing Super Power And how to bring all of that into your story Ep 173 text [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 50. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash Coaching. [00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. [00:02:34] Hello friends, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation, well, it's a solo episode fits under the P of personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's. of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If this is your first time here, a very warm welcome. [00:02:57] You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but [00:03:00] you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And humane is with an E at the end. I noticed that non English speakers don't always know that human and humane are spelled differently. [00:03:24] So humane is with an E at the end. And this comes with a seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. So it's time for another. short solo episode and this time I'd like to share a bit more about the second P, the one that stands for personal power. I'll be talking about why it's key to know your personal power in humane marketing, how defining your core values really dictates how you show up in the world, [00:04:00] what other personality assessments you can do. [00:04:02] News to learn more about who you are, how all this information helps you understand your unique holistic marketing superpower. How to bring all of that into your story and just create a business that is aligned with who you are and therefore, you know, also marketed from within. Who am I? That's the question here, right? [00:04:28] And so this is the other P together with passion or purpose, the first P that was completely missing in the traditional marketing model. Before we never looked at ourselves first. It was all about the customer because the customer was king. And so we had to kind of chase after this customer. So I really think it has to do with the human evolution. [00:04:54] We want to self actualize. So it makes sense to learn more about [00:05:00] ourselves first in order to then find out who's a good match for us. It's very aligned also with the inner development goals. Something that I'm recently very much fascinated by and. kind of following the movement, participating in the movement. [00:05:18] So if you haven't heard about the inner development goals, definitely look that up. It's the pendant of the sustainable development goals. But again, as the word says, it's starting within, starting with ourselves. And so it's the same here. We're starting marketing within, within, within ourselves. So it's really. [00:05:39] principle of the resonance, right? So that we find out who we are first in order to resonate with ideal clients who are aligned with us. And marketing with integrity really means marketing in our wholeness. So that's why we need to start with [00:06:00] ourselves. So the first thing we look at, and I'm sure you heard about this before, is our values. [00:06:07] You know, what are our core. Usually it's three or five. So if you haven't done this exercise yet or haven't done it recently, I really highly recommend that you look at your values again, because they actually also change. So there's a free core values assessment. If you Google personal values assessment, you'll, you'll find probably several, but Yeah, they're, they're all pretty much the same. [00:06:36] So you just pick first 10 values and then you narrow it down to five or three. And mine currently are freedom, curiosity, joy. health and honesty. So these are kind of my top five values. In her books, Brene Brown talks about her two [00:07:00] guiding values being courage and faith and how she always thinks about these main values whenever she makes a decision. [00:07:07] For example, freedom is my number one value whenever I don't feel free. I feel trapped and knowing that about myself has really helped me with business decisions. For example, I'm not an ideal fit for working with a business partner under the same company. I just wouldn't feel free to do whatever I want. [00:07:30] It also means that I do my best work with entrepreneurs who also often have this urge for freedom. A few years ago, I trained all the consultants of the local unemployment offices on how to help their clients with LinkedIn. And I really did not like it. They were not my people. They had been working at their jobs for. [00:07:55] And they didn't share this value of freedom and [00:08:00] curiosity and and the growth mindset. So yeah, looking at our values and knowing what they are and bringing them into our work and into our marketing and into our Business decisions is really really key. Another thing I talk about in the Marketing Like We're Human program under the personal P, personal power P, is the Myers Briggs personality assessment. [00:08:28] I'm sure all of us have taken that already at one point in our life. My type is INFJ, so knowing this about myself helps me understand more about my energy. That I'm more introverted and more intuitive. I'm not driven by numbers and stats. I love people but I need to refill my battery by being alone. [00:08:55] So, It's a, it's a good assessment to really know how, how [00:09:00] you're wired and it helps you again with your marketing and your business decisions because it, it teaches you how you do your best work, right? Another one we look at is the Enneagram. I don't know much about that, I think I'm a four, but it's also an interesting one to look at, so if, if that calls you maybe because of the drawing or it just speaks to you more, then definitely have a look at that. [00:09:29] Another one is the, the Strengths Assessment. So, it's called the V I A Institute of Character Strengths, and it's organized in 24 character strengths in different degrees, giving each person a unique character profile. And so, Then it also gives you kind of your six most important character strengths, and which is just also, you know, interesting to look [00:10:00] at. [00:10:00] So mine were Humility, Love of Learning, which is again similar to my Value of Curiosity, Judgment, which is the same J of INFJ. So Judgment, my Husband Tony always makes fun of me about that because I am quite a judgy also with people and say I don't like these pants Things like that, but that's not what it stands for in the Myers Briggs assessment It the J is really about planning everything ahead of time and not being so good with spontaneity And so that's very much me very You know future planning so judgment is my third. [00:10:46] Then fourth is creativity, which is still true. Then fifth is gratitude, which is also true. And then sixth is kindness. So again, it's a lot of confirmation, but knowing this about. [00:11:00] myself lets me tap into it more into, you know, bring that into my marketing. Like I call myself the mama bear of the humane marketing circle. [00:11:10] Well, it is that, you know, kindness, for example comes out of this term. So it's just informs us about different aspects of ourself that we can bring into our communication and our business. Another one of these. It's not really an assessment. It's much bigger than an assessment. I don't know what you would call it. [00:11:35] It, it is human design that is based on astrology and a very similar type of thing is, is called gene keys. So you probably either know human design or you know gene keys, but they're very similar, I would say, because they're based on astrology. And I'm a five... One generator, so there's different profiles, [00:12:00] and I am really usually full of energy. [00:12:04] That's what the generator means. I, I, you know, intrinsically create energy. And so again, just kind of learning more about this human design and it goes into a lot of depth. If you're curious about human design, I highly recommend you listen to episode 159 with Julian Cross and Hill, who is a human design specialist. [00:12:29] And you can find that episode at humane. marketing. com forward slash H. M 1, 5 9. So very, very fascinating work that I dove into a few years ago, and it's still with me. I have my report in my desk, and every now and then I take it back out. I'm like, oh, yes, that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. For example, it gave me the information that I'm actually meant to work with.[00:13:00] [00:13:00] One too many, so writing books, for example, or doing the group coaching, I thought that I was just meant to work one on one because I was an introvert and yet when the human report came out and I worked with someone on, on that. We realized, well, actually, no, it's not so much about one on one or not only about one on one. [00:13:26] So that was interesting for me. So yeah, have a listen to episode 159 with Julian Cross and Hill, who talks about human design. Yet another one is the fascination advantage. So that's more about. looking at how the world sees us rather than how we see the world. And this one really is more marketing oriented. [00:13:49] It's It's really interesting to find out also that often people see us differently from how we see ourselves. So the exact [00:14:00] words that people would use to describe us and the types of tasks that perfectly fit our personal brand and, and then it gives you these 42 personality archetypes, which seems like a lot. [00:14:16] But There's been a lot of research behind that and really it, it is, yeah, it is fascinating. And when I took it a few years ago, I came out as the maverick leader and my kind of Power was innovation and power. And now that I took it again, power stayed the same and innovation changed to mystique, which mystique is the language of listening, which also fits me well. [00:14:46] So it's just interesting to see and find out how the world sees you. And then also kind of receive this language that people would use. Well, I would never. [00:15:00] Describe myself as a maverick leader. I wouldn't put those words out there, but it's interesting to hear and see that maybe that's how people perceive me. [00:15:13] So yeah, very interesting information in that report. It used to be free. Now, unfortunately it's no longer free and it's. I think it's around 70 bucks a client you recently told me so, but I would say it's, it's, if you're interested in that kind of thing, it's definitely worth doing that once. So all these results really help us realize who we are and what we're good at and what our unique holistic marketing superpower is. [00:15:43] There's probably others. Oh, there's one I'm thinking of from Jonathan Fields called What's your SPARCA type? And that one is also a bit more like skills oriented like work oriented. So you'll find that on Jonathan Field's [00:16:00] website, or if you just Google SPARCA type and, and another interesting of these self assessments. [00:16:07] And again, we don't have to. You know, take these labels for granted. Things can change and we don't have to put ourselves into this box. But to me, it really informs us a bit about how we're wired and then. You know, we can tap into that and say, yeah let me explore this and find out how I can use this to my best advantage. [00:16:33] So, for example, if I'd work with a coach that told me that I have to speak on stage every week, that would really not work for me. I'd be totally outside of my comfort zone all the time and probably end up with a burnout in a few months. All about expanding our comfort zone every now and then, like I'm doing in a couple of weeks by going to a big summit about the inner [00:17:00] development goals in, in Sweden. [00:17:01] So again, these inner development goals that I mentioned earlier, it's just really right now at a topic that I'm fascinated. of and really interested in and so these summits are, they're, yeah, I'm an introvert as you know and so going to a big summit like that is, yeah, outside of my comfort zone, but it's. [00:17:25] Okay for me to expand that comfort zone every now and then, but for most of the time, I agree with my friend, Adam, who has this concept that he calls inside the comfort zone. And I think that's why we're doing these personality assessments and figuring out our unique, holistic superpower is that for most of the time we can operate within. [00:17:49] our comfort zone. And I really think we are our best selves and do our best work when we truly know who we are and bring all of us [00:18:00] to our work. No masks. We're not faking it until we are making it. Right? Most of the time, I would say probably 98 percent we do our best work if we are truly just who we are. [00:18:13] 2 percent of the time, yeah, we'll have to put on a little mask. And, and, you know, for me, it's usually kind of faking the small talk or, or pretending I'm fine when I'm actually having a headache, which happens a lot. But other than that. I just, you know, operate best if I'm truly inside the comfort zone and, and being my true self. [00:18:38] Another thing knowing my personal power helped me understand is that I need a lot of spaciousness in my days. Even though I call myself a conscious business coach, I don't enjoy coaching loads of clients at the same time. My brain just can't handle it. Another thing I didn't I mentioned so [00:19:00] much here is that I'm a highly sensitive person, that's, you know, it's not a, in a, in a personality assessment, but it's, it's a trait. [00:19:08] It's a personality trait. And so, Understanding this about myself that I'm highly sensitive and that my brain quite quickly probably more quickly than other people goes into overload, it just made me understand, well, I can't be this coach like other people are coaching all day long and having like six, seven coaching clients per day, it's, it's not good for me. [00:19:36] So that's why I shifted my business model to now work only with three. one on one clients at a time and they of course get then my full attention and I can over deliver because I'm not spread too thin. Besides the one on one clients, I then also offer the community and the group program and soon a second one that I'm [00:20:00] calling the business book alchemist. [00:20:02] If you're on my email list, you already know about this one. So another story that comes to about how my values helped me. Make a business decision is the story about the trademark issue with gentle marketing. If you've been in my world for a while, you already know this story that after I published the first book then called the gentle marketing revolution, I received a seasoned assist letter and was told I can no longer use that term. [00:20:33] And so. That was really, really hard, as you can imagine. But sticking to my values where a lot of people kind of even, you know, nice, like friends almost, like at least business friends told me, well, you know, maybe you can fight this. I'm sure there's, there's a gray zone because she's in the U. S. You're in Switzerland, you know, just lawyer up, get a lawyer and, and, and I'm sure you [00:21:00] can fight this. [00:21:01] And yet. That was going so much against my values. I'm like, I don't believe in competition. I believe in collaboration. I don't believe in owning stuff, especially gentle stuff, you know, gentle words. How could I, Sarah, own a word and say, this is now mine. Nobody. It's allowed to use it anymore, especially if I'm calling it a revolution, right? [00:21:29] And so it was just completely against my values to go and say, Hey, this is going to be mine. I'm going to fight for it. And so it really helped me. with my intention, intuition and, and saying, well, I need to let this go. I need to, you know, say, okay, fine. I understand legally, this is yours and I move on and find a new term. [00:21:56] And I think, yeah, the, the values and kind of [00:22:00] in my. moral principles really helped me in this in this decision, which of course wasn't easy, but in the end, I'm, I'm so glad this happened. So yeah, in conclusion, finding our personal power is all about marketing from within. Aligned with our values and really feeling a hundred percent grounded in how we're communicating and it helps you find then also the tactics that are aligned with you and tune out at the same time, all the other noise and all the other shoulds, for example, I'm not on Instagram, I'm no longer on Twitter, I've quit Facebook, I only release one podcast every two weeks now where everybody's saying, well, you should At least, you know, two episodes per week, but it just didn't work for me. [00:22:53] So I do things aligned with my energy and my personal power, the way that [00:23:00] feels good and not what the latest guru marketer tells me to do. And I really, really think. It's so helpful to know what your personal power is, right? What your personal holistic and humane marketing superpower is. And I truly enjoy helping others find their holistic and humane marketing superpower by By guiding them through this journey of finding out, well, how are you wired? [00:23:32] What's your, what are your values? What's, what's your worldview? And, and if you've read my Marketing Like We're Human book, I have a special reader offer that you can find on my website. If you go to humane. dot marketing under the tab books, it's kind of hidden away, it's under the tab books, not offerings. [00:23:51] And so you, you click at the bottom, it says special reader offer. And it's a one off power hour with me [00:24:00] that comes with a 16 page workbook that I'd like you to prepare and reflect on before our time together. So it's really, it's deep work and I'll have you. You know, look at some of these assessments and then we can figure out together, well, what is your humane and holistic marketing superpowers so that you too can tune out all the rest. [00:24:23] And maybe for you, it is Instagram, right? It's not going to be me saying, Oh, but for me, Instagram doesn't work. And so it shouldn't work for you either. It really depends on what you enjoy and how you're wired. And what your energy looks like. So if you're listening to this and think, oh, that would be really helpful, I'd love to help you and find more clarity and ease by figuring out your holistic and humane marketing superpower. [00:24:53] So again, it's at humane. marketing. And then you just look for the tab [00:25:00] books and underneath there, you'll. Find the special reader offer. I really hope you got some value from my ramblings about superpower and humane holistic superpowers. Maybe take some of the assessments that I mentioned. I think it's really, really helpful. [00:25:19] Personal Power is also the second module of the Marketing Like We're Human, aka the Client Resonator Program. So you can find out more about that by going to humane. marketing forward slash program. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:25:39] You can find out more about that at humane. marketing. com. Forward slash circle, you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M one seven three. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, [00:26:00] and the free gentle confidence mini course. [00:26:02] As well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. [00:26:22] Speak soon![00:27:00]

In today's episode, we dive into the P of Passion with our guest, Sophie Lechner, founder of The MAGNET Model. Join us as we explore Sophie's passion, the impact of her passion project, the Marketing Mutiny, and how it all fits into the bigger picture of humane marketing. In this episode with Sophie, we talked about: Her community passion project called the Marketing Mutiny Why she created it and her goal with it What makes it different from an online summit How a passion project creates a sense of purpose for your business How to create your own passion project and much more -- Ep 172 transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:27] Hello, and welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of. passion. So we're back at the first P of the humane marketing mandala with the seven Ps of humane marketing. If you're new here, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of humane marketing at humane. [00:02:55] marketing forward slash. One page, the number one and the word page. [00:03:00] And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So this is not a prescriptive, here are the things you need to do, uh, but more of the, well, here are some questions to, first of all, question all your assumptions around marketing, but then also help you reflect on these different piece for. [00:03:25] Your business. So today's guest is Sophie Leshner. Uh, after 25 years in corporate, Sophie became an entrepreneur and is now the founder of her second company, The Magnet Model. She helps mission driven entrepreneurs to find their audience on LinkedIn and engage with them so that they can spread the message and grow their business. [00:03:49] Over the last 20 years, her activity on LinkedIn has led to speaking engagements in the US and abroad. Podcast invitations, finding clients and JV partners, and [00:04:00] even an interview in Forbes. She created the magnet model to help entrepreneurs build the authentic relationships that will propel their mission forward. [00:04:09] Sophie works with clients one on one via courses, group programs, and workshops. This time I didn't invite Sophie to talk about LinkedIn. I invited her to talk about a passion project she calls the marketing mutiny, which as you'll find out is very much aligned with the humane marketing revolution. So we talked about her community passion project, uh, why she created it and her goal with it, what makes it different from an online summit, how a passion project creates a sense of purpose for your business, how to create your own. [00:04:48] Passion Project and so much more. So without further ado, let's welcome Sophie Lechner to the show. Hi Sophie. So good to have you on the Humane [00:05:00] Marketing Podcast. [00:05:01] Sophie: Hi, Sarah. I'm delighted to be here. [00:05:04] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. I just thought it would be such a great topic to talk to you in the, as you know, um, doing these conversations in the, in the piece of humane marketing. [00:05:16] And one of the first one is the passion P and I'm like, who do I know that is passionate and you and your passion project, uh, the marketing mutiny. Um, came to mind because I was just recently, recently participating or, or it kind of featured, I guess you would say. So, uh, I thought that makes a great conversations. [00:05:38] Uh, obviously it's very aligned with, uh, how we think here about, uh, marketing. So yeah. Why don't we get started with you kind of telling us about the marketing mutiny project, why you created it and what it is. [00:05:56] Sophie: Yeah. So I. Have been in the entrepreneurial world [00:06:00] for, what am I going to say, 11 years, and I have seen so many programs and so many tactics and so many, um, you know, shiny objects that come into the field of vision of new entrepreneurs. [00:06:16] And I have coached a lot of them, and I have seen the devastation, I want to say, that a lot of these marketing tactics, um, that it wreaks havoc with the entrepreneur's, um, life and ambition and, and, and their opportunity for growing because, you know, we come into the world of, Entrepreneurship with the passion we have for our, you know, our expertise, what it is we can help people with, but we don't know about marketing usually. [00:06:49] And so we start to sign up for all these different programs and then it gets overly complicated. It's the opposite of what you, you know, all of your marketing is about the [00:07:00] way you see, uh, um, entrepreneurship. So, um, I have seen in my coaching, a lot of entrepreneurs who are burnt out, discouraged, you know, don't understand what they need to do next. [00:07:15] And, and I just was getting more and more and more frustrated and then angry at all of this noise. And I thought there is another way of doing business, but a lot of people don't know it until they've gone through the whole process of getting burnt and, and, and sometimes they give up. And so I thought, well, what, you know, if you get angry enough, you get to a point where like, I got to do something about this and what can I do? [00:07:45] So I came across this kind of project and I thought, well, this is perfect. I will, I will, you know, get some people, invite them in, talk about it. And we'll just all together make as much noise as we [00:08:00] can about it. So we can crowd out all those aggressive marketers and. new entrepreneurs can hear about these humane ways of doing business. [00:08:12] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Obviously it reminds me of my own story, my own, uh, you know, burnout sitting on a therapist's chair and, and all of that. And it's, it's interesting because You have 11 years. I have almost 15 years. So I think we've kind of been exposed to the same, you know, gurus and marketers and all of that. [00:08:33] And it's just, yeah, seeing that. Overwhelmed seeing that frustration from, from maybe ourselves, but also from all these people that we're coaching is just like too much is too much. And so, yeah, you, you, you calling it a project, which I really like. And I think we can give a shout out to Ellie Trier who, um, has been on the [00:09:00] podcast before, right. [00:09:00] And as a common friend of ours and, and she's kind of really like. Started this maybe idea of, of instead of calling it a marketing campaign, maybe calling it a marketing or not even calling it a project, right? Let's call it a passionate project because, yeah, it is tied into passion and maybe like you said, anger, but I, you know, that's great passion if there's some really strong emotion related to it, like anger. [00:09:31] Um, And what I love about it is this community aspect to it, you, you called it the conversation. So tell us about this a bit more how you structured this and, you know, people are probably commonly used to an online summit. So maybe compare it to an online summit. [00:09:52] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good starting point to give people sort of a frame of reference for how it worked. [00:09:58] The commonalities is that [00:10:00] you're bringing. Um, specific people to speak about a topic and so you have an overarching topic and then you're bringing these people to, to speak and contribute, you know, their, their thoughts to it. The big difference I find, and I was always frustrated with summits where, you know, you'd watch a video, you get really excited and then. [00:10:21] And then what? Like, you want to talk to the person who spoke and you want to talk to other people about it and you've got nowhere to go. You're kind of [00:10:29] Sarah: siloed. [00:10:30] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah, most of the time it's just like you're just... absorbing and no way to go. So I think everything happens through conversations. That's my passion is conversations and connections between people. [00:10:43] So I said, okay, I want to bring these people, but I want to create it in a way that will, it will generate conversations. Cause it's not about, well, it is of course about the 10 minutes that I have invited people to speak, but it's about all the thoughts [00:11:00] that it generates in the entrepreneurs who. I want to have benefit from this. [00:11:05] So I created a container where people can have these conversations and it was so lovely to have people, you know, react and, um, be able to comment and ask each other questions. And if I do it in my business, what that looked like, you know, that's what I wanted and it's worked. It was great. [00:11:27] Sarah: Yeah. And I love that you said you created the container. [00:11:31] Um, I think That's really what I'm doing with the Humane Marketing Circle, which you're also part of. And I think It's really does. It took me a lot of time to realize that hosting the container is is a lot of value because we're so trained to think, Oh, I have to, you know, create all these videos and create all this content and, uh, you know, yeah, [00:12:00] record thousands of speakers, things like that. [00:12:03] We're actually. The value is in the container and you then kind of facilitating in this container and then just bringing in these little, you know, thoughtful reflections that people can have conversations around. Do you feel like that people got that value? They understood that? [00:12:25] Sophie: Yes. And I also think that there's room for me to do something more with it. [00:12:33] So I'm kind of in a transition phase because what happened was this was a project. It was for a month and I had 10 entrepreneurs and then that was going to be it. Right. And what actually happened is that I, I don't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I didn't know exactly what to expect. It was, it was a bit of an experiment, but I got a lot of interest and I got a lot of connections and I really enjoyed it. [00:12:57] And I think the people who were in it really enjoyed it. And [00:13:00] whenever I spoke about, Oh, I don't really want it to end. Everybody was like, no, keep it going. So I thought about, I had to change the format a little bit, but, um, it's now sort of an ongoing project. So I'm not doing them every other day, like during that month, cause that's just not sustainable, but I'm doing two a month. [00:13:22] And, um, [00:13:24] Sarah: Yeah, two, two speakers [00:13:26] Sophie: a month. Yes. So two new entrepreneurs who do marketing differently, uh, each month. And I had to streamline how it happens. And so I, I'm, I'm a little bit in the transition process right now. It's, you know, the momentum was not there anymore because I didn't look right away. So momentum is important as well when you're, you know, promoting something. [00:13:51] So, um, I think there is community and there's also room for changing and evolving how I can. nurture [00:14:00] that even better. Right. [00:14:01] Sarah: But, but I do feel like it's, it's become bigger than just a project for you to me. And by the way, we met through that. Right. And so obviously, yeah, our values are very much aligned. [00:14:16] And so it's not necessarily the outcomes maybe that you had sought, but then there's all these new people that you meet. And, and, um, to me, it's really nice. Like, Now this is part of your marketing. This is part of your worldview. Uh, Just like humane marketing is about the same ideas. Like let's do marketing differently, right? [00:14:39] And so marketing mutiny is now part of your worldview and you're a linkedin consultant in your you know day job And so people who will resonate with the marketing mutiny are gonna hire you Rather hire you than any other LinkedIn consultant because they resonate on that worldview level [00:15:00] and that's the beauty about this passion project. [00:15:03] I feel [00:15:04] Sophie: yeah, yeah. And you know, a lot of the values were already sort of what I was. Talking about and, and, and embodying in my content all the time. And so I think over time, I've been attracting these kinds of people who were attracted to this. Right. And then I think that's what caused marketing mutiny to be so popular, at least among my audience. [00:15:29] Um, and it kind of gave it a. A form, you know, a word, a name, a concept that people could really rally around. Before wasn't there was more, you know, amorphous. It was [00:15:43] Sarah: like abstract where now it's like, [00:15:46] Sophie: Oh, yes, this is the thing, you know, And I have to say one of the biggest benefits of the project that I did not expect. [00:15:55] And that I think is actually even better than anything I could have imagined [00:16:00] is. all the people that came out of the woodwork, so to speak, um, who I found out about, like you, for example, through the project. And so I realized as I was like not even halfway through that, you know, I had, I had Listed 10 and then as I was going through, I was like, Oh, but there's this person and that person and that person and I could actually have featured 20 or 30 and I was like, This is fantastic because that means because before it was, I was thinking, Okay, I have to make all the noise, you know, uh, to crowd out all those big marketing names. [00:16:38] And I was like, Okay, I'll do it. But you know, I'll do what I can. Now there's so many of us, we can really all get together. And, and be heard more, right, that was also, that was the biggest benefit. [00:16:54] Sarah: And maybe it's a good thing that, you know, you only, you only realized that they're [00:17:00] here because otherwise you would have been tempted to put everybody into the same month. [00:17:05] And then it would have been kind of like an overload again. And now you have all these people who are like. You know, you can really spread it out over, um, over time. So, so, so you said, okay, it's going to be an ongoing thing. So, so yeah. How do you see this evolving? [00:17:21] Sophie: You know, since I've started, I've, I've made, I have this list of people. [00:17:26] I'm actually now Booked, so to speak, till December, so whoever I invite next, which I'm at a point where I have to, like, withhold, I can't, like, invite someone and say, well, you'll be featured in January, you know, so it's a bit frustrating because I want more, but at the same time, there's a little bit, a little bit of, you know, behind the scenes work that needs to happen. [00:17:49] So, I've actually hired a VA part time to kind of help me with this, but it's not, you know, directly money generating. So I have to kind of, [00:18:00] you know, manage what's, what's bringing in. So anyway, um, [00:18:05] Sarah: No, I really like you address that point because I think That's the part of passion that we can easily kind of get overpassionate about. [00:18:15] And then, um, especially as, you know, givers, uh, in empaths, we're like, Oh, but this is so great. We want to do more. And then kind of go, uh, wait a bit. Um, you know, how do I, yeah. How do I manage in terms of The bills and now I actually need to hire somebody, you know, a VA to help me with it. So I'm actually putting money out of my pocket. [00:18:39] So it is a thing that you need to be realistic about and say, this is how much I can put in. And in a way, I don't know if you agree, but in a way you just kind of need to trust. That what you give in will come back many fold. [00:18:58] Sophie: Yeah, [00:19:00] exactly. Um, yes, in April, I had a absolute blast for all month, but you know, I didn't get much work done. [00:19:08] Right. Other than that, so clients and that was it. So it's finding that balance. You're absolutely right. On the, on the other hand, so like, yeah, I could do one a week, but it's just not the same. But on the other hand, like you said, there's, There's a momentum, there's conversations that happen. I mean, look at you and I. [00:19:29] So we met and I was like, wow, this is exactly what I'm talking about. So I, you know, signed up for your circle. I'm on your podcast. So there's like all these benefits through that more people would hear for about me and you know, maybe become clients. So it's a whole ecosystem and I think that's exactly what you teach with the seven Ps and Humane Marketing. [00:19:53] Um, So yeah, it's, you got to find that balance. [00:19:57] Sarah: It's trusting the invisible. It almost feels [00:20:00] like, you know, that is not often what we hear in marketing. It's more about the stats and numbers and conversions. And, and, and here we're talking about something intangible, intangible and kind of, yeah, invisible. [00:20:15] And, and yet we know it, it works. But while we're still in the moment, it's a bit, yeah, sometimes a bit scary to trust it. [00:20:26] Sophie: Yeah, a concrete example of that is that, you know, for the, um, for the integrity of the project, I wanted people to be able to sign up to get the emails to get, you know, the contributions, the videos, etc. [00:20:42] But I didn't want them to go on my regular list. Right. Yes. You know, that's all from marketing my, my, my offer. Right. Right. And so I, I, I set up this place separately on my system and they were tagged and they were [00:21:00] excluded from the other emails. And then I had a few people say, well, you know, you're saying that we're not going to receive your email. [00:21:05] What, what if we want to, so I added a line, like, you know, you're not on my main list, but if you want to, you know, and, um. And through that, and through being on LinkedIn, and through looking, you know, just finding out peripherally about me, a lot of the people did sign up for my list. So it's, it's interesting to see those dynamics, like people were just in there, in there for the marketing mutiny, but then they wanted to hear more about the rest of me and what I do. [00:21:36] So yeah, it ended up, you know, being good. A couple of people are, have big complaints. [00:21:42] Sarah: That's, that's so interesting. It's, it's almost like, As marketers, because I also see you as a humane marketer, right? We, we almost want to, especially because we're kind of going against the bro marketing, we're like, Oh, we gotta be super careful about what we're [00:22:00] doing. [00:22:00] And then we always almost take it to a level where people then go. But I wanted this. So please, you know, send me your emails. Um, yeah, I, I have added this, this line to my promotions, kind of the, the, the, the big programs, uh, where can unsubscribe also from the, the emails. Um, And thanks to Adam, who's in our, uh, our circle as well, who, who taught us how to do that. [00:22:27] And I wanted to, but I never figured it out. So now I, I know. And then I also have people, Oh, I accidentally pushed that link. And now can you please, I want to keep receiving your emails. I'm like, wow, that's unexpected. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really interesting how we have. We're kind of like walking on eggshells now because we're like, oh yeah, we definitely don't want to do the pro marketing thing. [00:22:54] Yeah. But then, yeah, we, we don't want to block people out either. So. [00:23:00] Yeah. [00:23:00] Sophie: Yeah. And it's interesting how it really, I find our kind of marketing really changes the relationship that we have with our readers, with our audience, you know, especially, but even just our audience, like there's something You know, like a human connection that I feel is not there when you're in some of these other people's lists. [00:23:22] it's just a transaction. It's just a piece of piece of paper. It's an email, but you know, it's concrete. It's not, there's no humanness in it. So yeah, [00:23:33] Sarah: Yeah, and I think it's the transparency. What I always say, humane marketing, how is it different? It is really about the transparency and explaining everything you do. [00:23:45] So by, you know, you saying you're not going to be added to my list. But if you want to, then, you know, you can do so here where until now, everything has been so kind of in the [00:24:00] shadow and, you know, kind of like shady and, and. That's what people, that's what has created this huge mistrust in marketing. It's like, Ooh, you know, what if I put my email in and then I'm going to get all of these things where here it's like, well, it's all out there. [00:24:17] This is what's going to happen. Um, so I feel like really this, this transparency is so key in, in my [00:24:25] Sophie: Absolutely. And I think a lot of it has to do with. letting people have their agency. And that was actually what one of the contributors in the April marketing mutiny, um, that was the, her value that she mentioned in her video was agency, your customer's agency. [00:24:43] And I think that's what we are robbed of by the bro marketers, bully marketers is, you know, like you, you, you sign up for something and you, you, you kind of feel like you're being sucked into something. You don't have full agency over what happens next. [00:25:00] Right. Um, I think that's one of the key elements that we, you know, um, uh, for our. [00:25:08] Our audience. [00:25:09] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's all about giving the power back. I really feel like the last 10 years we have disempowered our clients and giving the power back. Um, what I'd love us to, uh, I'd love you to share is kind of like if listeners are like, wow, that project sounds interesting. Um, if they wanted to run their own kind of community project, what would you tell them? [00:25:38] Uh, where should they start? Like, um, you know, what do they need to think about first? What would make a good topic? Maybe things [00:25:46] Sophie: like that. Yeah. So I think what's very important is to find a topic that You feel strongly about emotionally that others will [00:26:00] rally around so think of it as a movement, right? [00:26:03] And you can start it small. You don't have to be scared by the word movement, but that's what I feel. Marketing mutiny is right. It's it's this idea with all kinds of ramifications underneath, but it's an overarching concept that It's your standing for something or against something. Um, it's a big idea. [00:26:25] It's something people can rally around. That to me is the key thing for, uh, a project like this. Right. Um, it can also be, um, a topic where you want... to have people explore different, um, different aspects of, of, um, a topic. So I don't know, like, um, let's say burnout, you know, like, there's a lot of [00:27:00] Issues with burnout, all kinds of reasons why burnout happens, all kinds of therapies you can use, you know, there's like a lot of different avenues. [00:27:11] And so you can take a topic and then explore all the different ways of talking about it and how that can become bigger conversation. Yeah, that's what I would say. [00:27:24] Sarah: What I was thinking while you were talking is like, usually, you know, a marketer or a business coach would tell you to have like this goal for this project. [00:27:36] It's like, oh, you know, they have these beautiful conversations and then Sophie comes in and sells them this LinkedIn consulting package, but that's not how it went. Right. So how do we, it's really like this mindset shift is like, wait a minute, I'm just hosting conversations. And there's not like a funnel what they're going to do next. [00:27:57] And then they're going to, you know, go on this [00:28:00] webinar and buy this thing. So, yeah, tell us the reasoning behind that. [00:28:05] Sophie: Yeah, I, uh, I obviously subconsciously thought it was, uh, you know, um, uh, goes without saying but clearly, clearly it's not, I shouldn't think that. So yes, it has to be a topic that is. you know, related to what you do or your, or that reflects your worldview that impacts how you do business, but it should not be. [00:28:30] And some people have used these projects. to, you know, actually get leads and get them into a funnel and all of this. Um, but I think it is really critical. It's the same thing I say about how to use LinkedIn, but you know, that's another story, but it's critical to disassociate from the outcome. Just leave. [00:28:52] the outcome. Do it for the beauty of it. Do it for the conversations. Do it because it's good for [00:29:00] society and the world at large to have this conversation and to raise awareness of whatever the topic you've chosen. Um, so yeah, no, if you, if you do it with I mean, I'm, I'm, I have no doubt it would work in bringing you leads, you know, but that is not the reason you should be doing it. [00:29:25] You should do it or not for that reason. [00:29:27] Sarah: Right. I, I also think that, you know, like you even said, the clients will emerge out of it, um, but it's in that organic, humane way, uh, because they, they resonate with your worldview and with your passion so much. And you just happen to be very, very good at LinkedIn. [00:29:49] So it's kind of like, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm [00:29:53] Sophie: also that, yeah. It's a good, it's a good backdrop because, you know, when, when people You [00:30:00] know, hear about me through marketing mutiny and they realize, Oh, actually I do have this LinkedIn question problem, whatever. Um, they know already that the way I'm going to approach LinkedIn is not going to be sending a hundred DMS a day and, you know, sending spammy DMS. [00:30:19] I mean, they, they know that. So it's, it's exactly. [00:30:24] Sarah: Yeah, exactly. It's like part of your worldview. And that's by the way, why I transitioned out of LinkedIn, because I was like, you know, I could not deal with another, uh, you know, discovery call where people were asking me to sell a thousand leads or get them a thousand leads. [00:30:43] And I'm like, this is just not for me. And, and I see now, obviously that I transitioned out of it. That I should have led with humane marketing, just like you're doing. That's how you then get the right people. So, so yeah, totally, [00:31:00] totally makes sense. [00:31:01] Sophie: Yeah. When somebody comes to me saying, you know, can you, what's a good way of. [00:31:06] Phrasing my DM outreach. I'm like, Oh, wrong person to have a very short conversation. [00:31:17] Sarah: Yeah. Another, uh, kind of similar event type that I've just, um, seen, um, um, patchy don't know if you know, patchy, um, another common friend. Yeah. So she's doing some kind of round table, uh, event. And I really also resonated with that approach where it's, you know, still a conversation, but it's a roundtable, uh, conversation. [00:31:44] And I, yeah, I'm really looking forward to that as well. So I think, you know, it's, it's in the zeitgeist, it's like, well, people don't want to just be talked down to, or, or kind of like talked to and, and, um, they want to, they [00:32:00] want to be heard and seen and have conversations. Yeah. [00:32:03] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really breaking down the barriers, you know, like summits are, you know, you're over there in the summit, you know, video and I'm here in my office and that's it. [00:32:16] And, um, with these projects, it's like, oh, so how. I could see myself absorbing some of that information because I can have that back and forth. I can interact with the person presenting. I can talk with other people about how, what it would look like. And it makes it. It makes it all possible. It makes it all, you know, usable and [00:32:40] Sarah: it's approachable because you don't feel like, Oh, look at these, you know, gurus who are the summit speakers and they're so attached from everything. [00:32:50] Where now it's like, well, they're just part of the conversation. Yeah. Same human level. Yeah. [00:32:57] Sophie: I think people were surprised at first, they were like, [00:33:00] oh, so the person in the video is actually responding to me? [00:33:06] Sarah: They're so famous, they can't even respond to it. That's funny. Um, yeah, please do tell us where people can join the Marketing Mutiny now that it's an ongoing thing. I'm sure all the listeners are like, oh, tell us how. Yeah. [00:33:22] Sophie: Yeah. So. As I said, I was, you know, I'm transitioning to a new way of doing it because I didn't want to have to send all these emails. [00:33:31] And so I've streamlined it for myself and to be able to continue doing it. So what I've decided to do is to actually feature the entrepreneurs in my LinkedIn newsletter. The reason I did that is because I have quite a bit big, um, following there. And so those people will get an email with the newsletter. [00:33:54] So every other newsletter, it's kind of my going on goings on about [00:34:00] LinkedIn and every other newsletter is, um, a marketing entrepreneur being featured. So that's the way to, um, receive this information. And then the conversation takes place. in the comments to the newsletter, which are then, you know, um, all gathered in the LinkedIn group. [00:34:21] And that's, that's behind the scenes. If people want to have one place to find everything that's in the LinkedIn group. [00:34:27] Sarah: Wonderful. All right. So we'll link to the newsletter, uh, in that case in the show notes and, and people can find it there, or I guess otherwise they can also come to your website. So what's your website URL? [00:34:40] Sophie: Yes. My website is themagnetmodel. com and, uh, there's the second part of that link. If you want to go straight to all the marketing mutiny stuff is marketing mutiny ebook. So themagnetmodel. com slash marketing mutiny ebook. It's a bit long, but we'll put it in the [00:35:00] show, you put in the show notes, [00:35:01] Sarah: right? [00:35:01] Wonderful. Yeah. And I assume people can find you on LinkedIn because that's where you mostly hang out. That's probably [00:35:09] Sophie: the easiest of all. It's just find me there and you'll find all the, all the stuff, all the stuff about LinkedIn, but all the stuff about the marketing you can do [00:35:18] Sarah: there. Well, thank you so much for having this passion project conversation. [00:35:24] I, I really loved it and I love what you're doing and I love having you in the humane marketing circle. So thank you for that. Uh, I always have one last question that I ask all my guests and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:35:41] Sophie: I am grateful for all the wonderful people, including you, that I've discovered through Marketing Mutiny and for the joy of doing business in a way that is Aligned with what I love, aligned with what I am passionate about.[00:36:00] [00:36:00] Um, and this is the way to be an entrepreneur and every day is a joy. So that's what I'm grateful for. [00:36:07] Sarah: Thank you. Me too. Great hanging out with you. Thanks so much. Thanks [00:36:13] Sophie: for having me, Sarah. [00:36:16] Sarah: I hope you enjoyed this episode about the P of passion. So important to find this purpose in your business. Please join the marketing mutiny at marketing mutiny. [00:36:28] org. And you can also find out more about Sophie and her LinkedIn work at themagnetmodel. com where you'll also find a great quiz to find out what kind of LinkedIn user you are. Sophie is an active member of the Humane Marketing Circle. So if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the circle? [00:36:50] You can find out more about our community at humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. [00:37:00] marketing forward slash H M 1 7 2. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing, like we're. [00:37:18] Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon![00:38:00]

Join us for another episode as we dive into the world of communities with the Eddy Augusto, the community facilitator of the Humane Marketing Circle. Eddy shares thought-provoking perspectives on the distinction between communities and audiences, drawing from real-life examples, talks about the essence of "Community" and explains the numerous benefits of communities, for its members and the brand. Eddy's definition, "When at least two people begin to feel concern for each other's welfare," encapsulates the spirit of community. Listen to this episode if you're considering to host your own community, or be part of one. In this amazing episode Eddy and I talk about: the definition of a community, and how it's different from an audience the criteria of a healthy community how communities benefit the members as well as the brand our own experience within the Humane Marketing Circle and much more --- Ep 171 transcription [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 50. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash Coaching. [00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. Dot marketing. [00:02:30] Hello friends. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Partnership, and if you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, big warm welcome. [00:02:50] You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at [00:03:00] humane. marketing forward slash one. Page, the number one and the word page. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. [00:03:13] So partnership is probably my favorite P of the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. It's also my priority among the 17 sustainable development goals. Uh, goal number 17 is also about, about partnership. So I really think like we, uh, Win if we collaborate more and so I made that really my priority this year with the collaborative workshops that I'm hosting for the members of the humane marketing circle, but also they're open to the public and I bring in these different people that I think are very, very smart, uh, human beings that have a certain expertise that does members of the circle [00:04:00] and, uh, the outside community are interested in. [00:04:03] And this, these collaborations have been just so joyful. They like, they, they were so. Easy to set up, they're fun to organize. And so, yeah, I'm going to continue with these, uh, partnerships for sure. So today we talk about the P of partnership to a community or within the community. And I bring you our very own Eddie Augusto, the community facilitator of our Humane Marketing Circle to talk about communities. [00:04:37] So Eddie is an entrepreneur and self directed learning facilitator with a background in computer science and computer engineering. He decided to pursue a more authentic and innovative path in his career and personal life. He specializes in community building, collaboration, and self directed. education. [00:04:58] He holds a degree [00:05:00] in socio environmental design from Gaia University, collaborative project design from Colab Design, and self directed learning architecture from Masters of Learning, along with other certifications in non violent communication and agile learning. Currently, Eddie works as a community designer, facilitator, and manager, helping businesses to create an environment where people feel belonging and care for each other. [00:05:26] with their customers. Eddie also works as a mentor, helping people to live an intentional lifestyle, purposefully and consciously seeking to align their actions, choices, and values with their personal goals and values. He believes that communities that learn together are the future and works to assist them in developing these collaborative. [00:05:48] Learning skills. In this amazing episode with Eddie, we talk about the definition of a community and how it's different from an audience, the [00:06:00] criteria of a healthy community, how communities benefit the members as well as the brand, our own experience with the Humane Marketing Circle, and so much more. [00:06:11] I'm just so thrilled to share this conversation with you. So here's Eddie and I talking about communities. [00:06:21] So good to speak to you. It's a, it's a different setting, but it's still just us. Right. So really excited to have you on the humane marketing podcast.  [00:06:31] Eddy: Very happy to be here, Sarah, to talk about a subject that I love, which is communities.  [00:06:37] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, you are the, I guess as a, as a, an introduction, you are the community facilitator for the Humane Marketing Circle. [00:06:48] I think it would be a funny story to tell how I came across you. So I actually found you on Fiverr of all places, right? So I was looking [00:07:00] for a community. I think I probably put in community manager. That's usually the term that I was familiar with. And, and then I just kind of, you know, saw what was there. [00:07:11] And, and immediately when you were, uh, you were very, you know, how you are also in person, how I know you are, you're very firm about your beliefs. And I love that about you. And it was like very clear on this fiber page. It said, I only work with. Purpose driven or something like that you explain who you work with and, you know, that's the only work you're interested in. [00:07:36] So I'm like, yeah, this is my guy. So that's That's how we, uh, got in touch and it's just, uh, yeah, it's when I think back, it's like Fiverr out of all places, but yeah, people always ask me, have you ever been lucky with Fiverr? I'm like, I have been lucky very, uh, quite a few times with Fiverr, so. Here we are. [00:07:56] It's probably a year later and [00:08:00] I'm talking about communities now. So, yeah, why don't we start with, um, kind of like an introduction to communities, you know, maybe, like, maybe we can start with. defining communities, you know, what is, what is a community? What makes a community?  [00:08:19] Eddy: Yeah, sure. Um, so community is a very old word, right? [00:08:28] Uh, which has a very broad meaning as well. And then community would be individuals who have, who share something, who share a purpose or who share a place where they live, um, and for, for, uh, but this meaning is not enough for us to, to talk about, uh, what we want to talk here about and what I like to talk about, um, is about intentional communities.[00:09:00]  [00:09:00] Where we are a community because we want to be a community. So there is an intention of being part. It doesn't happen by, by, by accident. Uh, so I think this is the first thing to, to, to say the difference between a community by accident, like a class, for instance. Um, or an intentional community here. I think we will talk about the intention community where people, they have a clear purpose and they want to connect, um,  [00:09:33] Sarah: Rather than in a class where you have to be there, right? [00:09:37] Eddy: Yes, exactly. So the, the word community has been used in so many ways, uh, mainly lately. And I don't really like that, to be honest, I like to, when I talk about community, I am speaking of something which is not just [00:10:00] people having the same purpose, but they have connection between them, they care about each other and there is this sense of care, genuine care. [00:10:11] So, and we could give an example, would a gym be... community, right? Uh, well, people, they have the same purpose. They go there to, to get fit. Um, well, it could be, but it's not necessarily right. So people can go in and go out without saying a word to each other, without knowing each other's name. Uh, but they can also do something like CrossFit has been doing. [00:10:39] Uh, they start, they can start to train together and to go for challenges together, uh, right? So, they can build the community. Um, so that's why I like to, to point out that we are speaking about intentional communities and that intentional communities is not... Neither social media. I really see like, [00:11:00] as you said, you looked for a community manager and in my page in Fiverr. [00:11:04] It was written very well. I don't take care of social media and someone and someone who's normally looking for a for a community manager as most of people call it. Uh, they would be like, then what do you do, what do you do? [00:11:23] Now,  [00:11:23] Sarah: it's so true. And what you say about this, uh, fact that, you know, community, it's almost like a buzzword now, everybody uses it. And I think what you're also addressing is the idea of, uh, An audience versus a community, because that's where I see it, uh, misused often in, you know, kind of this online space, people are calling their. [00:11:49] Audiences communities. So like they would call their Facebook group, uh, community, which again, we could argue that maybe there is a [00:12:00] common purpose. Um, for a Facebook group. But the big question is really, well, are they connected with each other? Or are they only connected to the guru, you know, the leader of this audience and even more is there a selling intention from the guru to the audience, right? [00:12:22] That's really where the difference is between a community that cares and that there's care in between the members and the community leader that only cares about his wallet being filled. And so then, then it's more an audience. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:12:39] Eddy: Yes, exactly. Um, yeah, this difference between like managing your audience and building a community. [00:12:49] And I think we can, we can give some principles to understand it better. And we could say that a community, an intentional community, what we are [00:13:00] speaking of here right now, uh, is something that is purpose driven. So it is not for, uh, of course, we all want to earn money with the community as well. We want everybody to earn a lot of money and have abundance in their lives. [00:13:16] But it is purpose driven and it is relationships first. So, like, It is not about the image of the guru of the boss, and it is about building relationships. Um, we could measure the quality of this community by the amount of connections that there are and the strength of the connections between the people. [00:13:40] Um, and I think there is also this continuous improvement on how we can better manage this community, how we can improve the connections between people. And also I think, and so I think this is, this would be like the basic principles that can already [00:14:00] differentiate, uh, from audience, right? And I think we can learn a lot from indigenous people. [00:14:07] Um, they teach us a lot about community. And personally myself, I was first interested in live communities, like people living together, having a common common sense and et cetera. And then later on, I started to study how we could also, how might we create that online in the pandemics? And it is, and then I discovered that it is possible and technology is here for that. [00:14:38] We can use technology with. Um, with a clear purpose and with intentionality, and we can build communities online and, and actually one of the best things that communities online make is to make real friends who will find each other in real life as well. Yeah. So the two worlds, [00:15:00] they, they merge. Right. And I  [00:15:03] Sarah: would just, would you, would you agree? [00:15:05] Sorry, go on. Yeah. Would you agree to say that? Um, you know, this is obviously the ideal picture of a community. Um, and I feel like in the humane marketing circle, we're getting there. And there's definitely already a lot of connections happening in between members. Uh, we see projects being created. Uh, and yet, It is, I think, as a community leader, if we now talk from the community facilitator point of view, leader point of view, it is probably really one of the things that, um, I wouldn't say hard, but it's like That's, they need still support with that. [00:15:50] You can't just assume, Oh, we now have the people and now just, you know, be all happy and friends. Um, so I feel like that's something that we are [00:16:00] constantly working on in the, in the circle. So, so, and that's what you're working on as well. And, and you're, you are, um, creating these network weaving calls as we, as we call them. [00:16:12] So, so. Really focusing, actually, I'll let you explain them. So, so how does the net weaving calls feed into these interrelationships between the community members?  [00:16:26] Eddy: Right. I love this point that you are bringing up now because yeah, sometimes people think that it is just put all these people in the same room and let them speak to each other, but our education is such that we are, um, We are used to some kind of behavior, some kind of ways to, um, to connect or to, to keep disconnected, uh, when we are engaging with people in conversations, when we are meeting new [00:17:00] people. [00:17:00] Uh, and there is also like, uh, we, we sometimes need some time to break the ice and et cetera. Uh, so I really think that the facilitation, uh, now speaking about community facilitation, it is about setting the space, uh, for, for the connections to happen. And these we make with pro, uh, appropriate, appropriate. [00:17:24] Uh, methods and appropriate tools. Uh, so we design, will it be one by one in, in, in breakout rooms? Uh, what will be the question that will, that we will bring for them to wander and to talk about? Uh, so we, we try to design something that gets out of the, um, uh, the normal, the conventional, right? Because then we get out of the, of, of the automatic. [00:17:51] And then we can really get to know each other for real. And from this point, we build stronger relationships in much [00:18:00] less time. So I think it is all about that. And the net weaving connections that we make in, in our, uh, in our community. And also, I bring this in every community that I work with, my community or as a service. [00:18:17] The net weaving connections, the net weaving call, sorry, is a moment that is, the main purpose is to build connections with people. And it is funny because normally, most of the people, they take time to see the importance of that. They don't want to go there. No. Go there just to meet people, you know? Yeah, I don't have time  [00:18:41] Sarah: for  [00:18:41] Eddy: that, right? [00:18:42] Exactly. It's not my, my, my priority to meet people, you know, but I'm coming to the conclusion more and more over time that it is exactly this meeting people with intentionality. So it's not just about hanging out with whoever, wherever, [00:19:00] and speaking about whatever as well. Uh, but it is about being in a specific place with a specific shared purpose, with a specific designed space, uh, for the thing to happen. [00:19:12] And I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that this very thing is... What brings us more partnerships in business and more health and more, uh, there is a very recent research that I love that they have researched the whole life of a bunch of people in the United States. From childhood until, until, um, uh, late, uh, until, until 80s, you know, and they have showed that one of the main things that people, uh, who, who have been happy in most of their lives they have in common is that they have strong family connections, strong [00:20:00] friend connections. [00:20:01] And, and I think that it is very important for us to keep that in mind, like, what is the final purpose in the end? What it is all about, you know, uh, making business and et cetera, and making partners going here and there, taking an airplane, uh, making people, um, passing time and hours and hours, spending hours in front of the computer sometimes. [00:20:24] What it is all about. Bye bye. And for me, it is really about being self, uh, feeling self, self fulfilled, feeling happy, uh, feeling that we are useful. And as this research shows, I will look for the link later on, and then if you want, you can put it in the description. Yeah, um, well. It really, it is really about the connections we make. [00:20:50] So, um, yeah.  [00:20:52] Sarah: You know, as you're talking, um, I'm thinking of another, uh, word that we often use in the business language, which is the [00:21:00] networking group, right? And so that's another kind of confusion that some people confuse a community with a networking group or a networking group with a community. And so I think it's really important also to point out that a community, at least our community and the way I think you see and I see communities is not a networking group. [00:21:23] So it's not a place where you just come to, uh, you know, get clients and create business. And I think that's the new kind of reality that we're creating, uh, in the Humane Marketing Circle, which is a community that is business oriented because we're mainly talking about marketing and growing our business, uh, in a different way. [00:21:48] And yet it relies on friendship and personality, personal connections, and authenticity, uh, first, right? So that is, [00:22:00] So different from the typical networking events that I ever went to not really doing them anymore, but where you are just showing up as a business person. Uh, what we're trying to create, uh, in the, in the community is. [00:22:16] Holistic community, I guess. It's like where you show up as a whole person. You are, uh, you know, on one hand, yes, you are in business. You are a business person, but the friendships, they don't happen so much on the business level. They happen on the personal level. And that's why we're kind of creating these spaces where. [00:22:37] We're allowing, you know, the whole human to, to be there and connect on this deeper level. That is never the personal, the business level. It's always the personal level. Right. And so we find like communities that are business oriented. Are probably even harder to create, uh, at least the [00:23:00] way we want to create them because it's like this mindset shift. [00:23:02] It's like, Oh, I'm not just coming to get something, but I'm also coming to give and really invest that time. It's a slower approach to, to business in a way. Would you, would you agree with that?  [00:23:18] Eddy: Yes, for sure. This, there is a question that I love to bring in net weaving calls, which is who are you besides your work? [00:23:27] Exactly. You know, because we are so used. Oh, Sarah, what do you do for a living? And then you start to speak about what brings you money in your life, you know, but this is just a tiny part of Sarah. And in the problem, let's let's talk about a bit about the problem, right about business oriented, um, kinds of community, if we call that, um, well, there is [00:24:00] so many people. [00:24:01] With so many clients and so many, so much money, and yet they don't feel self-fulfilled yet, they don't feel happy about what they do, and I think this is what we are trying to do differently. We are trying to make business. As it goes along with our purpose, with our mission, with our life, with who we are, we don't need to use a mask. [00:24:27] Uh, we can expand our being, uh, in connection to people. And I think this is all about, um, marketing as we are humans. And this is all about, um, community in the way we are talking here. Intentional, intentional communities. It is about taking, uh, getting out of this. Automatic way of doing everything, um, which is quite a void, empty. [00:24:55] We feel empty in the end and, and realizing that and trying to do [00:25:00] things, uh, with meaning and with consciousness, uh, bringing consciousness to everything that we are doing. And I think that community is like the one, the only way that we can go. Yeah,  [00:25:13] Sarah: yeah, yeah. No, so true. What I just also thought is that, um, You know, usually in business, you have these membership sites or kind of like learning programs where the idea is to have everybody at the same level so that then there is something that is being taught and we go through a program and then, you know, you take people from level A to level B. [00:25:39] And so it's intentional that everybody is in the same level. Uh, if I think about a community, let's take, you know, an, an inden indigenous community or, uh, you know, I grew up in a hippie community, right? Uh, there was not everybody at the same level. Everybody had different experiences. Everybody had, you know, [00:26:00] different age. [00:26:01] Um, and so that's also what we're trying to build into, uh, the humane marketing circle. It's not, For, you know, only for beginner business owners or only for business owners that make six figures or, you know, that horrible language that we don't like, um, it really is kind of like all over the spectrum because, um, everybody needs community. [00:26:26] It's not like, oh, only these, you know, people need community, only beginners need community or only experts need community. I think that's an essential part. And I actually think that, you know, people come with different things that they can bring and different things that they need. So if I think about the people in the community who have more experience, um, They, they, what they want is maybe to, you know, come as mentors and share their knowledge and, [00:27:00] and create, uh, other visibility, uh, opportunities for themselves. [00:27:04] They don't need so much of the, you know, initial advice. But they still feel like they're being seen and heard and recognized and, and useful. Right. And I think that's also a new concept in the business world. It's like, Oh, we don't just put everybody in the same bucket. We're actually kind of looking at, uh, people as a whole and, and accept everybody and bring everybody in as a leader in their chair, wherever they are in there. [00:27:33] Experience. How does this apply to other communities that you that you have seen or worked with?  [00:27:41] Eddy: Um, yeah, I, I see these that you're saying, like, uh, as a belief that comes from military things, you know, and then, and then it gets to the school where we separate, uh, children by age, you know, Uh, and it looks like we are getting, you [00:28:00] know, uh, older and then we are getting smarter because we have, uh, understood more content. [00:28:07] But in the end, as you say, like, there is such a big opportunity when we, when we merge, uh, beginners with people who are experienced. And, um, and I see it as, uh, the ideal, actually, the ideal pool of a community for learning, uh, purpose, for learning purpose. I think it is this pool of beginners and experienced people. [00:28:34] And I think that the way it also, uh, our, uh, our, our role as community managers, uh, for in this, uh, is to realize the participation of people, what they are giving and pointing it out for the whole community. Uh, hey, um, hey, Sarah, hey, hey, community, uh, Sarah this month, she took a lot of [00:29:00] energy to build this and that for you. [00:29:02] Uh, hey, community. Eddie this month he is offering a session, you know, let's thanks, uh, Adam because he was this month, uh, you know, taking care of the community. So we are like pointing out and bringing attention to the, um, um, to what people are doing for the well, for the welfare of the others. Um, and I think And this is a way to, because yeah, the more experienced people, how can we, how can they feel like they are learning and getting the best of it by practicing what they already have experienced or by learning how to teach what they already have experienced. [00:29:44] So we, we can give more responsibility. And then here we, we are already starting to talk about benefits for the brand, because even if we are not. Driven by, uh, by money. And when we are driven by [00:30:00] purpose, uh, a brand can be driven by purpose. And what are the benefits for the brand, right? Um, I'm going from one, uh, I'm connecting, right? [00:30:11] Uh, subject to the other one, just to say that, yeah, the benefit for, for the brand is, and for the members as well, is Having, uh, in a life space of learning, of constant learning. And because... When people, they identify themselves, um, to, to this place where they feel welcome and they feel belonging. They want to talk about it. [00:30:44] They want to be part of it. They want to bring new people to, to this place because they love being there. Um, and I'm, and it is real, you know, it's how I feel. So I think this is the benefit that, uh, the brand has. [00:31:00] Because we are, we are really talking about loyalty with members. We are talking about extra value out of contribution and collaboration from members who are willing to do what they are doing. [00:31:15] We, we don't even have to ask them because they love being part of the thing and they want to contribute. Uh, and for me the, this is amazing, you know, and for the members, And the benefits for the members, um, I see like, you know, we, what in the end, how do we learn things, uh, new things in the end, right? How do we really actually learn? [00:31:45] It is not just by reading a book, it is not just by, by taking on a course, uh, and it is not just by being in a WhatsApp group. Um, we really [00:32:00] learn stuff. When we are exposed to new information, and then we are able to test it with what we already believe, what we already know. And then we have a safe space to make new trials with this new information that we've got. [00:32:21] And then we obtain knowledge from, from this. Uh, tests that we have tried, right? And for me, uh, this is the thing about community. What I, what, what we are coming to the conclusion, I feel like it is a world movement. We are understanding that we are finding finally getting that is that being around people who resonate with you, uh, and who want to learn. [00:32:49] Things that are similar to what you want to learn is the best way to learn whatever you want to learn because you have a space. to be [00:33:00] exposed to that, to learn new things and to test out your new ideas. And then you really have in your body the knowledge, um, and you have a place to practice. So I think this is what we are coming to the conclusion. [00:33:15] And this is the importance of community. It is like the difference between, um, taking on a yoga retreat of one week and our. are living with yoga people, you know, and practicing and seeing them practicing every morning, every morning you wake up, you wake up late, they are practicing yoga, you wake up late, they finished their yoga, you know, like after a week, you're like, okay, I'm going to wake up today a bit earlier now try to practice with them. [00:33:45] And I think By managing our context, uh, architecting our context with intentionality is the best way for us to learn. And this is all community is  [00:33:58] Sarah: about. [00:34:00] Yeah, so true. And it reminds me of what's on the on the invitation page for the humane marketing circle. I think I said something like, you know, we we talk about and figure out what works for us in marketing, because there's so much content out there that tells you how you should be doing marketing. [00:34:21] Right. And so I feel like Yes, I could teach my way of marketing, which I do in the Marketing Like a Human program, but what I really want to offer is this space and place where we can talk about what works for us and then figure out, um, or, or, yeah, we share what works for each of us and then we can figure out, oh, That works for her. [00:34:46] Let me try that and see how that works for me. And since our values are aligned, our worldview is aligned, then there is a much higher chance that your idea will work for me because it's ethically aligned, right? [00:35:00] Rather than going, Oh yeah, but that doesn't really sound good. So, so it's, it's, yeah, it's exactly what you, you said. [00:35:07] I thought of another benefit that members often say is this idea of the the global community, right? So yes, we are aligned. Yes, we have the same values, the same worldview, and yet we come from different places. You were in Brazil. There's members from different countries in Europe. There's members from the U. [00:35:27] S. And so it brings us these different perspectives that really helps us also then look at things with a different eye and go on. That's how they do it. Or, you know, also different topics like it. In the circle, we, you know, me, we mainly talk about marketing and business, but you know, obviously politics comes up and, and, and I do talk about ethical behavior. [00:35:58] And, and so it's nice to have [00:36:00] different opinions and different things that people, uh, bring in because we are a global community and, and yet we're all part of this shared humanity. So I feel like the global aspect and learning from each other. In this way is so enriching compared to let's say I do an online course at home and you know, I'm just in my office and I'm just learning by myself. [00:36:23] It's not the same, not the same thing, right? Um, the other thing that, um, you kind of touched upon because you mentioned Adam and Adam is one of our members and he's also one of the ambassadors. So that's another way that more experienced members is. Um, get kind of this, um, you know, value for them, but also value to the community because, uh, we have in, in the circle for example, we have three ambassadors who are then taking turns in, in hosting the calls. [00:36:58] And so that is, [00:37:00] For me, when I started that, I was like, this is exactly what I wanted. I don't want to be the only reference person in this community. A community is never ego driven or guru driven. It's, it is, you know, based on different people. And so it's just so amazing to see, you know, Adam, Rachel and Kelly bring in their perspectives and hosting their calls. [00:37:25] And, um, yeah, I'm just curious, uh, if you see that working in other communities as well, this ambassador model.  [00:37:35] Eddy: Yeah, so this is what we would call the badges. This is a very known feature for our communities. And a place that has been using, uh, very well all this knowledge about communities is the Web3 projects. [00:37:53] If you navigate a bit on these new projects about cryptocurrencies and everything, uh, they are [00:38:00] actually making a very good use of all these tools, creating very intentional groups on, on, on Discord, for instance. And in gaming people as well, they also make a very good use of these tools that can reinforce the strength of a community and the badges, for instance, we can we can have, um, when people they they have, they and something like normally mature communities, they will have few few circles that are inner circles and there are outer circles. [00:38:39] But the goal is not to get to the inner circle. Each circle has its own reason, and people can choose whether they want to be, you know, in the visitor space, or they want to be a resident, you know, or they want to be an ambassador. And I really think about [00:39:00] communities of people who live together, for instance. [00:39:04] You don't necessarily want to live there. You might just want to pass the day. Or you might want, or you might want to make a volunteering, um, or you might want to try to become a resident and then the, uh, the community might have a status for you while you understand the values and while, uh, you get to really understand if it resonates to you and the community, if you resonate to it. [00:39:31] Um. until a day you become a leader in the community as well. So I think this is all the, the badges, they are actually a way to symbolize and to represent what is already happening. It's the status that are already happening in the communities, in the circles. Uh, in the groups and we are just making it visible and making it [00:40:00] intentional. [00:40:00] Uh, here are the types of presence that you can have in this place. And this one means this and that one means that, you know, these are the responsibilities of this one and that one. Um, what do you want to, to, to be, you know, how do you want to be part of it? And if you, if you want to be, uh, in. Ambassador, it might have a way until you get there because the ambassadors are mainly, are maybe people who already understand, uh, very well, the, the core values of the business and et cetera. [00:40:36] So, uh, right. So the badges. Uh, really this thing about seeing what are the roles that, that we have in the community and it is not about creating it, like designing all the thing. Okay. We'll have these and that, and that badge, it is to create as, as it comes actually, uh, to, well, there is a, [00:41:00] there is a, uh, a person, the community is growing. [00:41:03] We had just one. one layer in the beginning. Normally, the communities, they start having one layer, which is, are you a part of it or you are not? Uh, the only day later, and then the community starts to get bigger and bigger, let's say, and then you start to see that you are not managing by yourself. And then you see that there are two members who are very participative and they want to take on more responsibility. [00:41:31] They love being part of that. They want to offer more. And then you create a badge for them to say, Hey, you are an ambassador now, and they will love to be recognized by the, by the effort that they make, um, people will also understand what is the difference they will understand. Okay, these people, they. [00:41:52] You know, uh, they are here for a longer period. They understand better. They can help me if I need help. Uh, I can count [00:42:00] on them. Uh, that's why he or she is leading this session, you know? So I really think it is all about making clear and pointing out what will naturally happen inside the group of people. [00:42:15] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. And by saying that naturally happened, I think it really comes to this patience and slow growth. It is, unless, you know, you have a big brand in, in, in, in your, your community is around, uh, an existing kind of, um, maybe the audience that turns into a community, but otherwise, if you're, you know, starting out with a handful of people, it will go through these stages of growth and it's normal that, you know, first, um, yeah, you, you really have to kind of, I think the biggest thing is you have to. [00:42:55] Let go of, um, at least at the [00:43:00] stage where the ambassadors come in, it really, it's growing, um, into something that is Beyond you as a person, right before maybe you're the only one kind of hosting it and managing it. But once the ambassadors come in, and then you have a community facilitator. Now it's bigger than you. [00:43:21] It's not your community anymore. It's the community. And that's why these roles then just naturally evolve and happen because The feedback comes from the community. It's not you. So more, so much designing it anymore. And, and, and that's what's beautiful. But again, in a business context, I would say that it takes some learning. [00:43:45] I, I know that it did for me. It takes some learning to look at it in a different way. To look at, uh, the, as a community, not as a. Business project so much, but more as this natural thing that has [00:44:00] its own it is its own entity and it will grow if you give it the space to grow and the time as well, so I feel like we're. [00:44:12] Kind of coming to to the end. But I want to ask you if we forgot anything that you absolutely wanted to to mention. What would what would you say for closing words about communities?  [00:44:29] Eddy: Yeah, uh, yeah, I'll just say a word about what you're saying. That is, uh, I love to say the phrase that my role has been fulfilled. [00:44:40] If people, they come in, they come in the end and they say, Oh, we have done it by ourselves. Uh, it is a bit ungrateful, but you know, it is the way it should be, you know. I shouldn't be expecting to be the center of the attention. If my, my intention is really that [00:45:00] people learn the best they can, they get the best they can. [00:45:03] Um, if they think they have done everything by themselves, they don't even realize what I have, uh, acted in the place for that to happen. Um, well, this is the ideal actually, you know? So I think it is really about that, about, uh, this creating this space. for, for everyone to learn together and to build friendships that leads to business as well. [00:45:29] We are, we have been saying over and over, it is not about business and not about making money, but this is actually, it is exactly, but it is another way of making money. It is about making money as we, uh, fulfill our purpose. And the more we fulfill our purpose, more we make money. I think this is the thing, right? [00:45:55] Yeah. Um, and I think the le I just want to mention a, a last thing and [00:46:00] then say, uh, a phrase to sum it up. Um, you, you talked about the importance of diversity as well, and. It is very important to point out that, uh, it's very easy to resonate on values. Like, we all value respect, we all, we all value silence, we all value this and that, uh, uh, collaboration. [00:46:25] But the way that we, uh, actually understand respect or silence or collaboration or love are very different from culture to culture, from family to family, from person to person. And this will lead also to conflicts. And this is part of community. This is very important. If your community never has any conflict, then you have a pseudo community. [00:46:54] It is something that you are calling a community, but it doesn't, it didn't test yet [00:47:00] the reality, you know? And the reality is such that we have different understanding of our same values. We all value the same thing, but we think this is something different. Uh, you think something different. And testing this and bringing it to, to, um, you know, building it together. [00:47:19] Okay. How might we understand in the practice, what respect means and how we, how might we value that as a community, uh, testing this reality through conflict is very important. So, uh, this is part of community and I just wanted to point it out.  [00:47:41] Sarah: And it's part of our role to hold the space for that. To be able to hold the space. [00:47:46] To welcome. Yeah. To welcome. To welcome it. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. And that obviously means that we are continuously doing our inner work so that we can show up as these grounded people who are able [00:48:00] to hold the space and don't. React and you know, go immediately into reaction. Um, so yeah, it's a it comes with with, uh, I would say great responsibility as well to to be facility community facility facilitators because it's more than just an online thing, right? [00:48:21] These are real human. connections that are happening with, with all the baggage that we come with, uh, as well. So, yeah, thank you.  [00:48:34] Eddy: There is a book for those who want to read more about that, uh, from Scott Peck, a different drum, it is called, and he says there are four stages of community, pseudo community. [00:48:47] And then it goes to the conflict where we start to realize that we have different, uh, understandings of our values and it gets so big that we cannot, uh, keep to ourselves anymore. And then [00:49:00] it leads to emptiness where most of the people, they go away, they leave. Um, and then it can come to community. So we have to cross all these stages to build a real community. [00:49:12] How much time it takes? It depends if it is a retreat of one week, uh, one evening together, or one year program. It will take a different time. But the idea... The idea is to pass through the stages. And of course, when you get to community, then you are going to sell the community again, right? Hopefully. [00:49:35] Sarah: What's the name of the author? Say that again. Scott.  [00:49:38] Eddy: Scott Beck.  [00:49:39] Sarah: Beck. Okay. Well, make sure to add in the show  [00:49:43] Eddy: notes too. Yeah, sure. And then I just want to say a phrase and also mention another author that I really like. Um, so. The phrase, the phrase is that You are starting to have a community [00:50:00] when you have at least two people begin beginning to feel concerned for each other's welfare. [00:50:06] And the true measure of of a community success is not the size of its membership, but the depth. of the relationships and the strength of the shared purpose. So this is the perspective we are looking at. And I want to mention the author Charles Vogel, who have a book written, The Art of Community, where he gives principles and, you know, some, some steps and how you can build. [00:50:38] Uh, a community. And I also want to say that, uh, whoever is listening to this, uh, podcast, and if you are looking to, for learning more about community on, or how to establish a community, how to get more intentional with the community you already have, uh, feel free to, to look for [00:51:00] me. I'll be very happy to help you. [00:51:02] Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. I was going to get to that. So thanks so much for, for sharing, uh, everything we'll make sure to, to link to, to the two authors you mentioned. Um, yeah, please do not actually, before I ask you to share where people can find you. One more thing that I thought of in terms of diversity is the age, because I remember a kind of a friend or a mentor that I like in the marketing space, Mark Schaeffer, who also wrote a book about communities. [00:51:40] What is it called? It's called, uh, belonging to the brand, why community is the next big thing. Um, and so he, I think in the book said, or maybe it was when he was on my podcast, he said, in terms of the community facilitator, look for the youngest person out there. [00:52:00] And so I, I really feel like that's what I did. [00:52:03] Uh, you know, you're the wisest, youngest person I've met. And, and so I'm just really, yeah, happy to, to have you in the community and you bring this new perspective that I'm so interested in as well. For, uh, for, you know, the different business paradigm, the way we look at our relationship to work. So you, you bring all that as well. [00:52:27] Um, and I think the age diversity is equally important. I mean that for, you know, older people, um, But also for younger people, it's nice to have someone from a more experienced generation and bring that perspective in. So I think that's another thing that we can pay attention to when building these attentional communities. [00:52:51] Um, so yeah, please do share where people can find you. Um, is it Fiverr or do you have another place that's better? [00:53:00]  [00:53:00] Eddy: No, well, I think that my main, the main ways to reach me is LinkedIn. Uh, Instagram, WhatsApp, and I also have a blog, but it is completely in Portuguese for now in medium. So I would say Instagram, WhatsApp, and LinkedIn are the best ways. [00:53:20] Sarah: So we'll link to that in the show notes.  [00:53:23] Eddy: And yeah, just to, uh, I, I, I felt about, I feel about mentioning another, another author who is, uh, Jeff Walker. Do you know Jeff Walker? It is like a big name on marketing on launching, right? He has the book, The Launching Formula. In his book, the Launching Formula, he talks about being rich without money, which is tapping into the, the people results, right? [00:53:53] Right. So his energy is not into building financial [00:54:00] richness, but into building a strong, uh, relationship to people. Because then when he needs something, he knows he can rely on these people who already, who know him. who know what he does and et cetera. So when, even when we are talking about more, um, common marketing strategies, let's say even then, even there, uh, people are already talking about community and how we can shift from the perspective, uh, and how we can understand that. [00:54:32] richness is not necessarily the money in your account. Uh, and it is very related to the relations that you have to people and the connections, the strength of the connections and the shared purpose that you have, uh, with the people around you. Oh,  [00:54:48] Sarah: true. Yeah. I always have one last question that I ask every guest and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:54:59] Eddy: I'm very, [00:55:00] very grateful for this conversation because it, it, it brings every, it, it gets everything so alive inside me, you know, it, it's something that, uh, that I love to talk about. I'm really passionate about this subject and about the work that I do with this as well. So in this very moment, I feel very grateful for having this, uh, this talk with you. [00:55:26] Sarah: I'm grateful also that we're collaborating on this. So thanks, Eddie.  [00:55:32] Eddy: Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. [00:55:38] Sarah: I hope you got some great value and inspiration from listening to this episode. The best way to get more of Eddie is by joining our Humane Marketing Circle because he's there on every call. He's leading our net weaving calls and he's also facilitating our online community on Kajabi. So... Find out more [00:56:00] about the circle at humane. [00:56:02] marketing forward slash circle. If you'd like to get in touch with Eddie for your own community, you'll find him on Instagram or LinkedIn. And the links are on the show notes page. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash. H M 1 7 1. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. [00:56:36] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Transcription by CastingWords[00:57:00] 

In today's episode, we sat down with James, a Freelance Web and Graphic Designer based in Bedford, Bedfordshire, who brings a wealth of experience in creating websites for Coaches. During our chat, we covered a lot of useful topics that can really help you level up your coaching website. We started by demystifying the differences between graphic and web design. Then, we dug into how to make sure your website truly reflects your coaching services and personal brand. James shared some great tips on planning out your website content effectively, and how to present your services in a way that resonates with your potential clients. We also explored how your website can connect better with your ideal client and the strategies you can use to keep them engaged and interested. Ever wondered whether you can change your website once it's up? We talked about that too. Plus, James shed some light on the ongoing maintenance that websites might need, and what to look for when choosing a website host. Whether you're a seasoned coach or just starting, this episode has something for you. In this episode James and I discuss about: The difference between a graphic and web designer How a website represents your personal brand How to plan out my website content How to position my services on my site What strategies can I use to engage potential clients and encourage inquiries? Is a website a static thing or can it be changed once I get it back from the designer and much more Ep 170 transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:29] Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Promotion. If you're a regular listener, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here, then you probably don't know what I'm talking about with these seven P's and the mandala, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. [00:02:58] marketing [00:03:00] forward slash one. page, the number one and the word page. And, uh, humane is with an E. So not human, but humane with an E at the end dot marketing. It comes with the seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. So humane marketing is not prescriptive. [00:03:21] It's not a six. step approach. It's a reflective approach. It's, uh, where I ask you to question all your assumptions that you have about marketing. So that's what you get with the one page marketing plan for the seven piece of humane marketing. Today I'm speaking with a new friend, James Mall, who's a web and graphic designer. [00:03:44] Uh, but before introducing you to James, I want to remind you that I'm talking to potential participants for the Marketing Like We're Human program, also known as the Client Resonator. This three month program is my main offering and it's connected [00:04:00] to this podcast and based on the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala because we'll dive deeply into these seven Ps during the program to help you discover your true self and passions so you can bring more of your. [00:04:16] into your marketing. It's really about marketing from within, marketing authentically. It's also much more than marketing. It's really about business building. And I do bring in kind of this different. business paradigm. While the main goal is to connect with your ideal clients, it goes beyond marketing. It forms the foundation of your life's work. [00:04:41] We'll start by focusing on things like passion and personal power, your why, and then move to other aspects like people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnerships. The program is in a small group setting, ensuring therefore a meaningful experience that aligns your business with your values. [00:05:00] It's a mix of videos, 20 to 30 minutes, uh, video per week. [00:05:05] Uh, beautifully designed workbook with lots of questions. My program is for deep thinkers, those who want to really roll back the sleeves and think deeply about, um, how they want to market, how they want to run their business, journal prompts. And then of course the live group calls in which I facilitate the conversation to take us even deeper into the topic of the week, who's this program for? [00:05:32] It's for entrepreneurs. Uh, who are quietly rebellious as well as change makers who have different levels of business experience, whether you've been in the game for one year, five years, or even 10 or more, it really is never too late to build a strong foundation for your business and your life's work. [00:05:52] So. If you want to know more, check out humane. marketing forward slash program for lots [00:06:00] of testimonials and case studies from past participants. And if this program feels like it might be the right fit for you right now, let's talk. There's a button on that page to schedule a call with me. So, uh, yeah, please do that. [00:06:15] We're starting on August 24th. All right. Thank you so much for letting me share about this. Now let's go back to today's podcast and back to James. So James is a freelance web and graphic designer based in Bedford. Bedford Shire, uh, that's the UK. And having worked with a variety, variety of clients, his portfolio includes fashion, swimwear, academics, coaches, property, charities, and photographers. [00:06:47] He now specializes in building websites for business coaches, and he loves and believes in helping coaches to build a better web. experience for their clients and themselves. In our [00:07:00] conversation, we talked about the difference between a graphic and web designer. I think that's really key for, uh, clients to understand. [00:07:09] How a website represents your personal brand, how to plan out. Your website content, how to position your services on your site, what strategies you can use to engage potential clients and encourage inquiries, uh, whether a website is static or whether it can be changed once you get it back from the designer and so many more topics. [00:07:34] So let's dive in with, uh, James Moll. Hi, James. I'm so happy to hang out with you. Welcome to [00:07:42] James: the show. Hi, Sarah. Thanks very much for having me. Thank you. [00:07:47] Sarah: Yeah, I'm delighted to have this conversation about websites. So let's see all the different topics we could get into. Um, we tried to beforehand, right? [00:07:57] Come up with some, some questions. [00:08:00] And so I do want to ask you one that you're like, Hey, maybe not this one, but I'm like, well, I'm going to ask you anyway, because, because actually, you know, in the bio that I just read about you, um, I did say you're a, uh, uh, web and graphic designer, right? So website designer, graphic designer. [00:08:19] And, and I know that quite a lot of people sometimes get confused. Well, what is what, who does what? And so I'd like to start us off there so that you can kind of give us a good Um, distinction between what does a graphic designer do and what does a web designer do? And if I need a website, who do I look for [00:08:44] James: then? [00:08:45] Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, it's actually quite a good question, I think, for people that are not aware, obviously, the difference between a web and a graphic designer. Being in the industry, um, a lot of people are aware. So, so a graphic designer is someone [00:09:00] that designs, uh, graphics. It could either be print based or digital based. [00:09:04] So it can either be. Uh, brochures, leaflets, um, billboards, um, and they could do digital design as well. So they could design adverts on social media. Um, there is crossover between that and websites. So they can design graphics that specifically go on websites as well. So they can sit on a, on a, um, a website, but how they differ from a web designer is that they're not techie. [00:09:29] So they're not able to, most graphic designers are not able to develop, uh, and build websites. So web designer is. actually more technical in terms of they're able to either code, uh, build a website with code, HTML, um, WordPress, um, software like that, or they can, uh, use no code software as well, which I, I worked with as well. [00:09:52] So I worked with a program called elemental along with WordPress. So I'm able to kind of use drag and drop software. Um, some like I've come, I'm [00:10:00] coming from a graphic design background to a website background. So there is some crossover, um, but generally. Graphic designers tend to design, um, the graphics either for print or digital. [00:10:13] Um, and they don't really tend to do websites. So they differ in that instance. I hope that kind of clears [00:10:20] Sarah: up things. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess. A graphic designer can learn to be a web designer and then be both, which is your case. And a web designer can also, or that's a question, do web designers sometimes also go into graphic design? [00:10:40] Or maybe that direction is less common. What would you say? [00:10:45] James: Um, I've actually met quite a few people that have gone both. So from like myself on graphic design into website design, and then vice versa, website design to graphic design. And I think it just [00:11:00] matters on your technical ability and what you enjoy. [00:11:04] If you enjoy graphic design, if you enjoy sort of creating. You know, anything from logos to branding, you know, brochures, um, graphic design is so wide as well. Um, and then it easily crosses over onto, um, website design. Um, it's kind of similar to coaching in a way, I guess, because a lot of sort of business coaches, for example, that I work with tend to do, you know, personal coaching as well, life coaching, um, and vice versa. [00:11:36] So there's some crossover there as well. So, um. Yeah, they can be cross over as well. [00:11:41] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. In my, um, sense of understanding this is the graphic design has to do with the beauty. It has to do with the aesthetics, with the art, with the colors, with the logo, uh, you know, with the, yeah, the word says it graphic, right? [00:11:58] And so [00:12:00] the web designer would be probably more, um, oriented towards the functionality of the site. Uh, of the website. So being like, you know, all of these click funnels and lead generation things that, that is more tech related. So, uh, in a way, I guess it's a good idea to look for someone who has an understanding of both. [00:12:24] Because then you get an aesthetically good looking website that also has the functionality behind [00:12:30] James: it. Right. Yeah, that's right. And that's why people like to hire me. Yeah. Because, uh, yeah, because I'm able to do, to do both. And, um, you know, from a UX and UI point of view, I'm able to kind of wireframe, uh, create like a blueprint and a map of, uh, the user experience as well, which is quite key. [00:12:51] I think a lot of web designers. Don't tend to think of that as well. Um, so it's not just making sure the website looks pretty, but also the [00:13:00] fact that you're thinking about calls to action, you know, your call to action buttons, getting people to book discovery calls or sign up to your mailing list. Or, [00:13:09] Sarah: yeah, so let's get in all of that because there's a lot to, to uncover. [00:13:13] So, so basically, yeah, we now know that there's both, right. There's the aesthetics and then there's the actual user friendliness and the. The functionality behind the site. So, so maybe before we go into the functionality, like what I, this is embarrassing, but like more than 15 years ago when I started out, I actually also designed some small websites for, for clients, you know, WordPress was like really new back then. [00:13:43] And so I quickly noticed how difficult of a job it actually is. Not so much big because of, you know, I was using WordPress. So it's pretty simple to put a website together, but where I always got stuck is with the [00:14:00] clients and their content, like the, the, the design of the site and their actual understanding of what needs to go on a site. [00:14:09] So I think that's also why there's. A lot of people, I don't know if that happens to you, but I know it happens to me that come with baggage and they complain about their website designer. They're like, it just didn't work out. Uh, and oftentimes it's because there is a miscommunication of who does what and in what kind of timeframe. [00:14:31] And so how can we help or, or, uh, to which level do we as the client have to be prepared? Uh, when we go to a website designer in terms of our content, in terms of knowing what needs to go on this website. [00:14:50] James: Yeah, so the content is, um, is a key thing in any website. And before, when I kind of started out, I used to kind of [00:15:00] rely on the client giving me the content and it doesn't always work out because what you've, you know, you designed a website and you put everything together and you made it look nice and you've put stock images there and you've put some. [00:15:12] Laura Ibsen text to kind of fill the gaps and you create a nice looking website and then the client either They do two things that either hand you Very little content. So there's hardly any text or any writing that they've put together themselves Or they can either give you too much Content so there's a lot to kind of pick pick out and put on the website And the information is is key because the information is what's gonna Sell your services. [00:15:40] So it's it's one of the most important things On a website and before when I started out, I used to always think about the design side and coming from a graphic design point of view as well. I used to always think about looking at making the website look pretty and probably less on the content, but as I've developed as a web designer and working with with coaches. [00:15:57] Now, I realized that, you know, [00:16:00] part of what we do is working with the coaches and having copywriters on board to help them create. Copy that is great to go on the website. Um, and that, you know, it's talking about their target clients, um, addresses, um, their pain points, um, and sells their services in a way that, um, reflects them, uh, in a, in a positive light, really. [00:16:25] Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:26] Sarah: Yeah. So, so you see the same thing is like, it can really be a, this idea. Oh, I need a website. But then once they talk to you or talk to any website designer, then they tell them, well, have you thought about, you know, who's your ideal client? How are you going to describe it? So it's like, it's this basically box of worms that all of a sudden gets. [00:16:52] you know, discover is like, Oh, I thought that was going to be quick and easy. And then I have, you know, all these other things that I now [00:17:00] need to look at and write about. [00:17:01] James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the planning stages is key with any website. Um, you know, sometimes clients will come to you and I used to have this a lot when I was starting out, you know, they'll say we need a website done in a week or two weeks or, you know, unrealistic deadlines and they're kind of rushing and they've got. [00:17:19] content ready and they're trying to create a website and they think that, you know, you can very easily create a website, you know, in a matter of a few days or a week and you can, but you know, it's like with anything, it's good to sit down and plan out, you know, the user experience, uh, wireframe and on paper, just, just even sketch out what, what kind of number of pages, the menu structure, uh, the calls to action, uh, what kind of information you're going to have, testimonials, um, All of that kind of stuff, social proof, um, and then layout, what kind of, what goes where, and think about that and spend time thinking about that [00:18:00] before you've done any kind of development or design. [00:18:03] That is a, is a must, I think now working with clients because we spend, we spend a good couple of weeks actually just, just on that. Um, when I work with clients now, uh, before we do any development work. [00:18:16] Sarah: Right. So take us into this user experience because you mentioned it a few times now. So, so what does that mean? [00:18:24] Take me on this journey. So let's say, you know, I'm landing on a website for the first time. Uh, I'm on the homepage. What needs to happen next? So take me through that journey. [00:18:39] James: Yeah, so when you're, when you've landed on a, um, homepage, for example, which is a, um, land, another word for landing page as well. So a landing page could be any page really on the website. [00:18:49] It's the first page that you're directed to. And often that is the homepage. But often you'll see a homepage and you'll see, you know, you've got the menu at the top. You've got your, um. [00:19:00] Items below it. So you would have like a hero image and you would have welcome to the website or whatever the company or person does on the website. [00:19:09] And then you'd have, you know, testimonials below it and you would have services, uh, what the coach does, for example, calls to action. Um, but it's. really mapping out clearly what goes where in terms of the information. So you want to be, for example, you don't want to be telling people about you necessarily what you do and how great you are. [00:19:33] You want to be talking about how you're helping them with their, with their problem, this problem solution. And you'll, you know, you, you've got a list of. your ideal client, you know, what kind of issues they're going through. Uh, for example, if they've, um, if you're in a corporate kind of coach, um, that's helping people that are coming out of corporate, the corporate environment, you want to say that, you know, uh, here's a, [00:20:00] this is what I do. [00:20:01] You know, are you coming out of a corporate job? Are you looking to start your own business getting into coaching, for example, and As soon as they see that at the top, you know, they know that this site is for them because people would immediately turn off in the first, you know, couple of three to five seconds. [00:20:18] If they don't see any benefit in, in, um, in the website and they'll just click, click off. So you have a high bounce rate as well. [00:20:27] Sarah: Yeah. It's actually in what we're just talking about this today in the humane marketing circle is the unique value proposition. You know, what it is you are offering To me, as the visitor to your website, how is it different from anybody else's offer? [00:20:44] And, uh, yeah, do I feel concerned? Like, yeah, do you speak to me or, you know? Yeah. Instead, do you just speak about yourself? And then I have to figure out if you're actually the right [00:21:00] fit for me. Um, [00:21:01] James: yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people make that mistake because. They want to say, you know, how great they are, you know, how many qualifications they've got, certifications, um, testimonials. [00:21:12] They want to, you know, literally tell the whole world about how great they are, but they forget about the client that they kind of helping. And what their problems are and really speaking to the client, you know, everything that you should be doing should be speaking towards your ideal client. And again, that's tied into the marketing side of things that you're aware of. [00:21:33] And a lot of web designers or graphic designers don't tend to think about that because it's a shame because a lot of web design and graphic design is quite separate from marketing. So coming from a background of both, I'm able to kind of use have both sides and think. You know, from a customer user point of view and think from a technical point of view, uh, and also from a design and colorful and making [00:22:00] everything look pretty kind of point of view as well. [00:22:02] So that it's a problem that I think we have in the industry where. In the whole kind of design industry where there's a miscommunication often between the marketing message and what you're trying to portray on an advertisement or a website. Um, there could be a misalignment there. Yeah. [00:22:24] Sarah: Yeah, I totally agree. [00:22:25] I think that the, you know, it's often a case in corporations as well, where they separate marketing from sales and, and here it's the same marketing should be part of it because that's essentially what you're doing with your website. You're not wanting to talk to yourself. You're wanting to talk to your ideal clients and everything you just said about the homepage. [00:22:48] I learned it's the same thing about on your about page, uh, on your about page, of course we think, Oh, it's about me. And yes, it is, but only in a second instance, it really [00:23:00] is again. Uh, people come to your about page because they want to find out if you're a good match for them. So they're really looking at the about page as a mirror much more than, you know, I'm so interested in this person that they don't know yet. [00:23:15] Right. And so it's kind of like just more like a checklist. Okay. Yes. This aligns this lines. Uh, and so it's the same thing for the about page. Um, so talk to us a bit more about the, uh, engagement. So. You know, it could be perceived that a website is a static thing because, you know, it just sits there. So how do we make it engaging, um, that actually people stay on it, first of all, you know, read our information and then maybe even go a step further. [00:23:50] How do we get them to stay in touch? [00:23:53] James: Yeah, I mean, One of the key things is not to put all of the [00:24:00] information out there in terms of content. So if you want to create engagement, for example, um, FAQs are a good example of this. So you don't want to frequently ask questions that you have. You don't want to sort of list them all out on the website. [00:24:14] You want to have options where people can click on a, on a question and they have a drop down and it tells them a little bit more about it. So anything that kind of people can interact with and engage with buttons that lead them on to another page, for example, that tells them a little bit more information. [00:24:31] So if you've got like a book, for example, that you're selling and you said, you know, do you want to buy this book right now? And then you clicked on the book and it just went to the purchase page. And it was just like. selling you the book, you know, from a buying point of view, it's not a great sales experience because you're not really giving them any more information about the book that they're buying. [00:24:51] So you want to create, um, almost like a sales funnel where you're, they click on, uh, to find out more about the book that you're selling, for example, [00:25:00] uh, how it can benefit them. Um, maybe give them like a free sample or demo, uh, That they can download like a PDF and then an option afterwards to then click and purchase. [00:25:14] So it's very much thinking about that user again, thinking about the user journey and experience rather than, you know, people are so desperate to kind of, you know, sell stuff, for example, or book a discovery call. And it's very much that you've got to kind of educate people. You've got to create that. Um, That trust, you've got to build that up, I think. [00:25:33] And you can't just rush into it. It's, it's, it's again, it's like us talking for example, now, and if we were at like a networking event and we met for the first time, for example, when you often meet people at networking events and, you know, they're just telling you how great they are and they're just like, do you want to buy my stuff? [00:25:47] Do you want to have a, let's book a call. Let's let's talk by my stuff. It's all me, me, me. And they don't really kind of create that opportunity where they, you know, you, you kind of. Meet them or add them on online or, um, go [00:26:00] to the website, find out a little bit more about them. And then a little bit later on, in the, in the kind of buying decision, you kind of decide that you want to work with them, um, rather than sort of rushing in. [00:26:13] It's kind of people kind of rush in. Um, [00:26:15] Sarah: yeah. Tell us how this would apply to the discovery call, because I like that a lot. So, so, um, and, and I'll share what I have in place, but yeah, I'd love to hear from you. Like, Okay. So I get it for the book. Yeah. How would you apply it to a discovery call? [00:26:34] James: So for a discovery call, for instance, you will, um, you've also got call to action on the site. [00:26:40] So I've got call to action. If people do want to book a discovery call straight away and they can click, you know, book a discovery call. So that's for people that have already made their decision. Um, so they've looked at your website, they've seen your homepage senior about page. Um, What you offer us is, you know, problem solution. [00:26:58] You can [00:27:00] help them with their, um, what their, whatever their problems are, issues are, and they've already made the decision to work with you. And they, you know, just click book a discovery call. So they're those kind of people are, um, sort of warm leads and they kind of, they're in that sort of. Uh, they want to buy from you and they want to buy what you're, what you, what you've got, but people that are, um, maybe need to be a bit more educated, for example, um, you'd kind of maybe I've got a few landing pages, for example, um, I've created for coaches where they could find out a bit more about me. [00:27:36] Uh, about what I do, the kind of clients that I work with. So it's kind of testimonials, social proof, um, talking through people, through, through the discovery process that I go through with clients. Um, and then they can, from there, they can decide to book a call at the end. So they can scroll right down to the bottom and then they can decide to book a call. [00:27:59] So those kinds of [00:28:00] people need, um, probably a bit more. educating and kind of getting to know you. Um, it just depends. I think if people are coming from online and if they've never met you before, then they're going to need a bit to know a bit more about you and probably add you on social media as well. [00:28:13] Follow you on, on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram, um, for, you know, at least a couple of months or, or, or whatever time period. And before they start working with you, uh, people that you've already met from online or networking or face to face networking, and they kind of know you and aware. The problems and solutions that you kind of solve. [00:28:36] Um, they're a little bit of more of a warmer lead. So they, they can, they just want to book a discovery call and they just want to talk to you. Right. Yeah. [00:28:44] Sarah: I would say the quality then also of this discovery, discovery call is, is very different. Um, if Someone comes to your site for the very first time and then just books a discovery call to me, those are often the clients [00:29:00] who just want to discover about, you know, website design. [00:29:04] Uh, so it's not like they are necessarily already. Um, on the gentle sales paths, like I call it that, that they don't know about you. They're not buying into you yet. They're just buying, they just need a website. Right. And it's like, Oh, this is one of them. Okay. Let me book a call. And then you're basically spending your whole time on this call, educating them, uh, instead of actually them, them educating themselves on their own time. [00:29:33] That's how I look at it. I'm like, well, I have all these things on my website. Spend some time there, you know, listen to the podcast, read the books, whatever, you know. There's a lot of information there. And then let's get on a call because otherwise, what often happens is we can spend our days on these discovery calls and then kind of end up being frustrated because, you know, people are just not there yet in [00:30:00] terms of where they are in their, um, sales decision. [00:30:04] Uh, and so that's, that's why often people who come to me and say, you know, I'm not closing. I'm like, well, you know, what do you have on your, I call them signposts. What do you have on your gentle sales path? Like your, um, like your templates that you're going to share with us for the landing page, right? [00:30:23] It's education like that, that then also leads to a better quality, uh, sales call. So, so yeah, I totally see that. Um, I also have an intake form. Where I didn't actually ask, you know, have you read, uh, my blog posts? Have you listened to the, so that I also come to this conversation knowing where they're at, because there's nothing worse than to be on a sales call and feel like being sold to, and, you know, and then. [00:30:52] After I do all this talking, they're like, actually, you know, I just want to talk to you and see how we can get started. [00:31:00] And so it's really good to pick them up [00:31:01] James: where they're at, right? Yeah. And also you don't want to be in that position of convincing them kind of thing as well. I think in my earlier days, I would often have to convince clients because, um, before I kind of niche down and work with. [00:31:16] Coaches and consultants and mentors and, you know, speakers and authors. Um, I used to work with quite a large variety of clients and I didn't really niche down in anything, so I didn't specialize in anything. So, um, I was seen more as a commodity. So, um, you know, it was all about price and it was all very much, um. [00:31:38] Yeah, fix it on price. So I'm kind of like, I lost track of where we were. Right. Checking around. Where were we? Sorry. Yeah, [00:31:46] Sarah: it's so important. Um, yeah. Any, any other things about the, you know, engagement and, and how to get more inquiries? Cause I think that's something that, you know, people [00:32:00] are really. Yeah, wanting to know more about, like, which part is content related and which part then is, like, we didn't talk about newsletter signups, right? [00:32:11] What are some mistakes you, you see there that, um, on websites related to that? [00:32:18] James: Um, I think a lot of times I think people have a newsletter signup and they don't really know what it is or, um, they don't really have a newsletter in place. So I think one of the key things is to have a just a mailing list. [00:32:34] Or a newsletter in place and tell people like, I've got one that's coming soon at the moment. So I'm just taking emails at the moment. So I actually don't have a newsletter at the moment. But a lot of the times people are just having a newsletter for the sake of having a newsletter. And I think you could have some sort of strategy behind it and know, because it is another way of bringing in leads. [00:32:54] Um, but it's not going to be straight away. Like, it's not going to be a, like, So today, tomorrow or next [00:33:00] week, you know, you you're still educating people about what you do. And it's again, it's the same with a blog on your website, you know, people come back and they will read your blog newsletters. So people are aware of, you know, your services, what you're offering, and they can see you on social media as well. [00:33:19] And if they've signed up to your newsletter, for example, as well, they see you quite active. So the more you're kind of, they're aware of what you do and who you are as a person, um, they, they have you in mind. So even if it's not for them, um, they will have you in mind for someone else. So as long as you're like that person that they think of when they think about sort of, um, You know, humane marketing, for example, um, and, uh, me being a web design consultant, working with coaches, um, you know, want to be like the first person that they think of. [00:33:55] So you want to have that, the newsletters were part of that sort of, that sort of [00:34:00] marketing strategy. Um, I think people don't often look at that hand in hand, like together, they just sit kind of separate. Um, but Anything that you do, if it's even if it's, you know, social media posts, um, uh, newsletters or blogging, you should always have like an end goal when you should always think about it from what, you know, what benefit are you giving to your clients? [00:34:27] Um, and it shouldn't really be just, you know, bragging about how great you are again with the website. A lot of times, you know, people are bragging about what qualifications or what things they're getting up to and what they're doing. As opposed to, um, how they're benefiting their clients and what kind of problems they can solve them for their clients. [00:34:44] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So let's say, okay, we have designed this, this website, we have the content, uh, everything is in place. And then, I'm sure you're used to that, the client's like, Oh, I need to change, [00:35:00] you know, this copy again and, and, and this and that. When, when do you hand the site over and is there, you know, can we still change it? [00:35:11] I think that's probably a question that people wonder is like, okay, uh, I've heard of WordPress, uh, you know, how easy is it to then change the site [00:35:21] James: myself? Yeah, so it depends. I mean, if the client either wants content or design changes, um, I have a, um, maintenance, uh, package that I offer clients that for the upkeep of the site and, uh, updates as well. [00:35:41] Um, so that could be an ad hoc kind of basis, um, or, or they could, yeah, pay as and when they need it. Um, but ideally, um, I also do videos as well. So I do a video to show clients how to edit the [00:36:00] site themselves. So they've got like that on their dashboard, um, how to upload images and text and change all that stuff. [00:36:06] But it just depends on the client. If they're You know, it's like a lot of coaches are too busy, so they don't have time to update their site themselves. So they either fall into two categories, the one that, you know, they do have time and they would like to do it themselves, or they're too busy and they don't, they would like you to do it. [00:36:23] So it depends on, on the, on the, um. So basically [00:36:27] Sarah: it can be changed, it just needs time. Yeah, yeah. Or you can do it for them and, and well, it takes money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always that equation. [00:36:38] James: But it should always be changed. I mean, I would do recommend for, you know, keeping a site regularly up to date, um, helps with your SEO, um, search engine optimization. [00:36:48] Um, you know, Google likes it when you've got up to date blogs and content on there. So a lot of times people will design a website, have it designed, and they [00:37:00] will just get excited and launch the website and make a lot buzz around it. And then within a few months or a year down the line, they've done nothing with the website. [00:37:10] So they've not added to the website and there's nothing new on their website. So from a search point of view, it gets ranked lower. Um, so the more engagement you've got on site, the more, um, people that are clicking on the site. So you want to constantly be putting content on the site and advertising on social media, for example, and plugging the site as much as possible. [00:37:33] Um, but it should always be Up to date in terms of content as much as possible. Um, but yeah, again, it's an, it's an additional charge. So once the site has been done and handed over to you, it's, um, it's an additional charge, it's kind of like. Decorating, for example, if this room that we're in, for example, if, you know, it's painted white, but if you wanted to paint it, you know, yellow or whatever, you know, there'll be an additional charge to purchase paint and do repaint the [00:38:00] whole room. [00:38:00] And then again, you want to pay it like orange or something or purple in a year's time. It's again, it can be done, but it's an additional. It's going to cost more time and money to kind of do that. Yeah, of course. [00:38:12] Sarah: So you mentioned, um, maintenance to me, there's two different things. There's maintenance, uh, which is kind of like updating the plugins and making sure it's the last, uh, and most recent WordPress, uh, addition, things like that. [00:38:28] Um, Or, you know, even backups and then there's updates, which is content updates or even design updates. So they're separate things like so like how much maintenance so purely functionality oriented maintenance does a website take once it's. [00:38:51] James: Yeah. So once a website is published, um, no matter what kind of software you're using, I mean, I build websites using WordPress. [00:38:59] Um, [00:39:00] if you could be using Wix or, or another software, for example, um, but it may certainly needs to be maintained in terms of security, uh, any kind of bugs that can happen on a site. Um, so it needs to be all anything plugin related that you've got any software that you use to kind of build, for example, if you've got, um, Um, I'm trying to think now, uh, scheduling software, any kind of, uh, appointment booking software, any additional plugins that are required. [00:39:29] If you've got Google, for example, or you've got Google site kit on there, uh, you've got Yoast SEO, um, on there. So you've got all these kind of different plugins, um, on there. They need to be kind of up to date and maintained. Um, otherwise they can kind of break the site as well. So if you've, uh, not updated a site after a while, if it runs into any kind of conflicts with plugin, um, Um, different plugins. [00:39:51] It can actually break the whole site. Uh, so you've got that as one issue. And then also you've got potential any, any site is vulnerable, [00:40:00] uh, online is vulnerable to being hacked as well. So, uh, twice to me [00:40:04] Sarah: already. So yeah. Yeah. So it's not like this. Thing that never happens. It [00:40:07] James: doesn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. So again, um, software in terms of security wise, um, needs to be monitored, monitored. [00:40:15] Um, so there's all that kind of stuff to kind of think about. And that's the more kind of techie kind of stuff. And that's the stuff that A lot of people don't like to kind of think about, but it's very important because obviously in terms of the longevity of the site, it's not nice to have a site that's being, being hacked. [00:40:32] Um, you know, so, um, it's always good to kind of, it's almost like insurance is always good to kind of just pay the extra to, to, to, to have someone do it. Or at least invest the time, you know, you could watch YouTube videos and learn how to do it yourself. But again, it depends if you want to spend the hassle time kind of learning that as well. [00:40:53] But it's the, it's [00:40:55] Sarah: the hassle of learning it, but it's also then the hassle of finding somebody who's [00:41:00] gonna fix your hacked site, right? Yeah. Where if you have kind of put aside some, uh, some for maintenance. Then that person somehow becomes responsible as well of, uh, having to fix the site or at least you'll come up with a fair price where if you just come to a new person and say, Hey, please, can you fix my site? [00:41:23] It's been completely hacked. They're going to charge you quite a bit to do that. [00:41:29] James: Yeah, yeah. Again, obviously with the backups, um, you know, all our sites are backed up. Um, content and design is backed up regularly. So if there is a problem, we can get back to a backup. Um, uh, so it's quite easily, uh, again, a lot of people don't back up their site. [00:41:49] So a lot of people, um, Sort of presume that's really done. And I've seen it in the past with clients that come to me and they've had cheap hosting in the past where they said, you know, they can get hosting for [00:42:00] like, I don't know, like 499, 599 or 10 pound, 10 or whatever it is a month or whatever it is. [00:42:07] And they think they're really happy with the hosting, but then they don't realize the fact that there is no added security or backups in place. And when something does go wrong, they All their content, everything is lost on the site again as well. And if you've got no backup of that all, um, you've got, for example, your blogs, if they're written in sort of Word documents and you've got them stored on, on your computer, it's good, you know, that's another backup. [00:42:34] Um, but again, you've got to go for the hassle of. You know, republishing everything, republishing everything and that sort of thing. So it's very, that's a hassle as well, you know. [00:42:44] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. All right. We want to end in a positive note, not in a, Oh my God, it's so scary out there. Um, yeah, just like everything. [00:42:55] Yes, everything can happen. It's, it's online and, and, and there is. That, [00:43:00] um, kind of tech stuff that, that happens. So, um, but yeah, like I said, let's, let's not end in a, in a negative note. Um, do you have a template that, um, you're sharing with our listeners? So. Why don't you tell us a little bit of what that is and where people can find [00:43:19] James: it? [00:43:20] Yeah, sure. Um, so I'll provide a link. Um, it's called the two week landing page challenge for coaches. So it's, um, a lot of people, a lot of clients just come to me that used to have, you know, trouble creating a landing page. And, um, I realized that I didn't really have. You know, if it's stuck in my mind and I like kind of can do it, but I don't realize that all this information was out there. [00:43:44] So I put it create like a template for people to kind of for coaches to download and very easily kind of put together. So, um, I'll provide the link for that. But yeah, it's just anyone else kind of. in the coaching space that needs to create a landing page to [00:44:00] sell a book that they're providing or um, a call to action, um, book a discovery call or any kinds of call to actions that they really just want to that specific key rather than providing it on the entire website. [00:44:12] They just want to specifically one pager, one pager. So it's a template that people can freely download. Um, and again, if you did want to book a discovery call with me and if you needed any help, I'm available to, um, help you out with any questions as well. [00:44:27] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. Thanks. We'll make sure we, we link to that. [00:44:31] And, um, yeah, your website is also in the, in the, um, in the text, uh, jamesmall. co. uk. Right. Uh, where are you most hanging out? [00:44:42] James: Sorry. And it's forward slash coaches to go on the actual coaching landing page. [00:44:46] Sarah: Okay. Great. And you're mainly on which social media platforms? So I'm [00:44:52] James: quite active on LinkedIn. [00:44:53] LinkedIn is probably the most best place. It's the best place to kind of connect with me and find out more about me and um, [00:45:00] just DM me and I'm always happy to talk. So. [00:45:02] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:45:10] James: What am I grateful for today? Um, I suppose I'm grateful for feeling a lot better and being able to eat normal food again. [00:45:19] Uh, cause I've had a ongoing, I've had an ongoing chest infection for the last couple of months. So yeah, I did kind of stop working for a little while and I couldn't eat some foods. Um, so I'm, I'm glad that I got my energy back and, you know, I'm able to kind of, I'm out of breath and I'm able to enjoy food. [00:45:38] Um, [00:45:39] Sarah: which is a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't realize it until we don't have it anymore. [00:45:44] James: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm actually going to a Retreat this weekend, helping my friend up, um, we were talking about it earlier. Um, so I'm going to be helping them out in the kitchen and there's going to be yoga and meditation and sound therapy there. [00:45:58] So yeah, I'm grateful [00:46:00] for being able to kind of take part in that as well. So, um, delightful. So yeah, I'm grateful. [00:46:06] Sarah: Thank you. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on to the show. Really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks, James. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you very much. Thank you. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode, especially if you're new to business and are needing to build your website. [00:46:26] You can find out more about James at jamesmall. co. uk. And as he mentioned, James also has a gift for us. It's a coach's landing page template, uh, which you can get at jamesmall. co. uk forward slash humane marketing. Uh, this is also a page where you'll find the two week challenge that, uh, James mentioned when he was speaking, James mainly hangs out on LinkedIn. [00:46:57] So make sure to send them a message [00:47:00] there, connect with him and tell him that you listened. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing. com You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing. [00:47:21] com 1 7 1, sorry, 1 7 0. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, uh, such as the Humane Business Manifesto, the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. [00:47:51] We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:48:00]

In today's episode, we delve into the vital “P of Pricing” as we sit down with Patty Block – a business advisor, pricing expert, author, and empowering speaker. In our conversation, we explore the intriguing relationship between broken cookies and our limiting beliefs with pricing, the challenge of being affordable for everyone while avoiding burnout, and effective techniques to communicate the true value of our services before raising prices. We also dive into strategies for determining fair pricing, tackling the “Good Girl's Dilemma,” and letting go of patterns that don't serve us. Get ready to be inspired! In this episode Patty and I discuss about: The relationship between broken cookies and our limiting beliefs with pricing The challenge of wanting to be affordable for everyone – and burning out while doing so Effective techniques to communicate our value and why we need to do that before raising our prices How to get started when you're determining your prices and much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business. [00:00:54] Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 50… Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client. [00:02:05] You can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. [00:02:29] Hello, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. I'm so delighted that you're here. I'm back in Switzerland after three weeks of really, really hot weather in Sicily. And I'm recording this and it's raining outside and there's a thunderstorm. So it's quite refreshing. I'm speaking today with Patti Block. [00:02:53] And before I tell you a bit more about Patti. I'd like to remind you that I'm currently talking to potential [00:03:00] participants of the Marketing Like We're Human, also known as the Client Resonator Program. This is my flagship three month program, closely aligned with my podcast, and based on the same framework, the seven Ps of humane marketing. [00:03:16] The program involves a deep exploration of these seven P's to help you uncover your true identity and passion and really enabling you to infuse more of you, more of your authentic self into your marketing. Essentially it's about marketing from within. While the outcome is the resonance with your ideal clients, the program goes way beyond just marketing. [00:03:44] It serves as the foundation for your life's work. We begin by focusing on the inner aspects, such as passion and personal power, and then move to the outer elements, people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership with [00:04:00] others. The program takes place in an intimate group setting. Ensuring a deep and transformative experience, resulting then in the business that truly aligns with your values. [00:04:13] The program is a hybrid model, so consisting of 20 to 30 minute video to watch each week. Uh, these are based on my teachings, but also on my own experience that I share with vulnerability. Cause I feel like if I show up with vulnerability, then that's kind of sets the stage for our group conversations. [00:04:35] And that's why these group conversations are so in depth and, uh, vulnerable and transformative. So who's the program for? It's for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs with varying levels of business experience. So whether you have one year, five years or. Even 10 years under your belt, it's never too late to create a solid foundation for your business [00:05:00] and more importantly, to create your life's work. [00:05:02] So by doing so, you'll be able to market authentically as the person you truly are. If you're interested in learning more or have already visited the page, but need to go back, I invite you to go to humane. marketing forward slash program, where you'll find different testimonials and detailed case studies from past participants. [00:05:25] If you think that this program might be your right next step and a good fit for you and your business, let's talk. You can book a call with me by going to humane. marketing forward slash program and there you'll find a button to book a call or you can send me an email if you're on my email list. Also, what I forgot to mention until July 31st, I have an early bird. [00:05:49] Discount of 200 off. So please do mention that to me. And I will of course, apply it as long as you book our [00:06:00] call before July 31st. It's okay if we speak after, but at least have it booked before July 31st and mentioned the discount code. There's no code just mentioned the early bird. Thank you so much. [00:06:14] Okay. Back to the P of pricing and today's episode, Patty Block is a business advisor, pricing expert, author, and speaker. She works exclusively with women business owner experts to strategically fine tune their operations, attract right fit clients, and boost their revenue. She firmly believes business success and wealth in the hands of women elevates society as a whole. [00:06:42] And I agree, but not just women. There's There's good guys out there as well in her book, your hidden advantage, unlock the power to attract the right fit clients and boost your revenue. Patty reveals a new perspective and proven practical solutions, guiding women to [00:07:00] unleash their. Inner power to run their business with more confidence, profit, and joy. [00:07:05] In this episode with Patty, we discussed the relationship between broken cookies and our limiting beliefs with pricing. You're going to have to listen to find out about the broken cookies, the challenge of wanting to be affordable for everyone and burning out while doing so. Effective techniques to communicate our value and why we need to do that before raising our prices. [00:07:32] How to get started when you're determining your prices and so much more. So let's listen to this conversation about pricing with Patti Block. Hi, Patti. I'm so looking forward to our conversation today about pricing. Welcome to the Humane Marketing Show. [00:07:50] Patty: Thank you. And thank you for inviting me. [00:07:52] Sarah: Yeah, I'm so delighted. [00:07:54] I'm, I want to give a shout out to Sophie Leshner, who's, uh, introduced us and, and [00:08:00] I couldn't be more happy with, um, you know, having this introduction because I have to admit, like in terms of pricing, um, especially aligned with our values and humane marketing, it's not always. Easy to find the right experts, but when I came across your work, I'm like, oh, yes, definitely very much aligned. [00:08:22] So, um, yeah, super delighted to have you here. I think I want to start off with, uh, one of the stories you tell on your website. And I think I heard you talk about it on another podcast as well. And it has to do with cookies. So it's not the cookie cutter, uh, story, uh, you know, the cookie cutter recipes that we talk about a lot in the humane marketing and I like follow everybody else's recipe for success, but it also has to do with cookies. [00:08:55] So why don't you start us off there, Patty? [00:08:59] Patty: Sir, [00:09:00] when I was growing up, my mom made these fabulous cookies. The whole house smelled good, it was warm, the cookies were gooey, and all my life I watched my mom eat the broken cookies. But it wasn't until I was a teenager that I even thought to ask her, why do you only eat the broken cookies? [00:09:19] Do they taste better? And she laughed and said no I eat the broken cookies so you can have the whole ones And that memory came rushing back to me several years ago when I was struggling to put words Around a really pervasive pattern that I had seen in the decades that i've worked with women business owners that That's what we're doing as women and that image of my mom eating the broken cookies popped in my head I realized that we are Watching our role models are moms and our grandmothers and they brought that spirit of self sacrifice to everything they did [00:10:00] so we're following that and we're bringing that into our businesses and that's what I call the broken cookie effect when we undervalue ourselves we underprice our services and then we over deliver so we struggle to be profitable we Really have a lot of limiting behaviors because I believe everything in your business flows from your pricing, when you can hire, who you can hire, the technology that you bring into your company, all of the things that you spend money on, you can't do that. [00:10:36] And you don't have those choices unless your pricing is appropriate and your company is profitable. And so, What I've seen is that everyone around us, our clients, our staff, our families, everybody gets the whole cookie and we live on crumbs. [00:10:54] Sarah: Yeah, that's quite the story. And it's, I could think of at least three or four [00:11:00] women, uh, in my personal life that I've seen kind of doing similar things. [00:11:05] And then also, yes, in business, I think this definitely, um, resonates and I, I see that. I obviously I didn't know about the cookie story before, but to me, it's like this feminine energy, we're so good at certain things, the caretaking, the, the empathy, we're both, um, HSPs as well, highly sensitive people, Patty. [00:11:30] And so there's this, you know, very nurturing care that we bring to our business and the feminine energy. But on the other side of the coin, there's then also this, yeah, this broken cookie effect where we struggle to take care of ourselves, right? Um, [00:11:51] Patty: yeah. Let me add that the broken cookie effect is not about putting yourself first and everybody else last. [00:11:59] [00:12:00] That's against our nature. I mean, talking exactly about what you're talking about in terms of our feminine energy and our need and ability to nurture. Those are all parts of who we are as humans. And I don't mean to minimize those or dismiss those at all, but there's a reason that you're in business. [00:12:21] And it's a reason that there's a business instead of a hobby. And that is to make money. And often we have to live on the money that we make from our businesses. So there is a real consequence if we're always putting ourselves last. And So worried about taking care of everyone around us that we miss the idea that unless we take care of ourselves emotionally logistically Being able to delegate being able to put boundaries around what you're doing and saying Unless we're able to do that effectively, [00:13:00] then there's such a high toll that it takes on us as a person Yeah, [00:13:05] Sarah: so true. [00:13:07] And on the other hand, I see this kind of Um, either in where, especially in the, you know, the conscious entrepreneur sphere, and I'm again, specifically thinking of women, but it's probably all, all genders who want to be affordable for everybody because, you know, we're conscious entrepreneurs and so we need to be affordable for, for everybody. [00:13:34] Um, And then we apply low prices and, and, and at the same time, then burning out because we just can't be sustainable with these low prices. So, uh, yeah. So how do we knowing all of that? How do we do it differently where it feels good to ourselves, but it also feels good for our clients who. [00:14:00] You know, where we still want to respect that not everybody can maybe afford high level prices. [00:14:07] What's your suggestion [00:14:10] Patty: here? So that was the question that was really ringing in my head was the phrase that I often hear from women business owners is, but if I raise my prices, it's not fair to my. Buyers, it's not fair to my clients. So remember that you as the business owner have a lot of choices and you get to set the stage for what you do and what you don't do. [00:14:38] But sometimes we forget that and we think the client is the boss, right? And sometimes we've created a job for ourselves instead of building a business. So part of the work that I do is working with women that are further along in their journey, and they want to start building real business value so that one day they can exit their company [00:15:00] and sell it if they choose to. [00:15:02] But one of the challenges is that when I talk to women business owners, especially those that are expertise based, They say, but I don't have anything to sell and that is a real misunderstanding of value. So I'm going to go back to the original point about pricing. So the antidote to the broken cookie effect, how you can beat that is with a four step system that I've developed called the snap system. [00:15:31] And the reason there are four pieces and it's not as simple as raising your prices because if it were that simple. Everybody would do that every year. And just call it a day, right? But it's not simple, exactly to your point. So the SNAP system stands for S Stop believing the myths and narrow your focus a assess your value and P practice your power and this [00:16:00] actually is the structure of my book, which is called your hidden advantage and that's a great place to start because not only will you learn the concepts around this, but also their exercises. [00:16:13] And, um, when you go through those exercises, it will help you gain some clarity because a lot of the reason that we don't change our pricing or add structure to it is because we're afraid. And because sometimes we think, well, that's not fair, but remember you have choices. So here's what I typically recommend is. [00:16:37] Add structure to your pricing, build a pricing model. It makes you more confident because there's a rationale behind how you're pricing and do that only with new clients. And leave your current clients alone. You can change the pricing over time with your existing clients, but there's no big hurry [00:17:00] and your new clients won't really know the difference. [00:17:03] So going back to the snap system, stop believing the myths. So those are all those limiting beliefs like pricing. I price based on what the market can bear. And that is. That's kind of my pet peeve because there's no such thing as what the market can bear as long as you understand that there's a price point for every buyer. [00:17:28] And we see that all the time. We see that in retail, right? There are different stores. You can buy a blouse in any of those stores, but which woman shops in which store depends on how much money she can spend and what she thinks is important and your buyers. Come to you with that same mindset. So if you can build what I call the perceived value The value in the mind of your buyer, then every step you take to build value helps your buyer [00:18:00] understand your pricing, your compensation, and there isn't any pushback. [00:18:07] Now, the important part of that is the end. Narrow your focus, because that's about finding right fit clients, what I call ideal buyers. And a lot of times we're waiting for the phone to ring, we're only, we only have an inbound process. Sometimes we don't have a process at all. We're waiting for the phone to ring and then we're winging it, trying to figure out how do we convince this person to buy from us. [00:18:39] And that approach Does not work or if it works temporarily all of a sudden it will stop working and you will be shocked and horrified that now what do you do your job is the business owner is not to convince anyone of anything that's just not your role you if you [00:19:00] provide an expertise. Or if you provide any kind of service or even a product product is a little bit easier because you have a supply chain and you can price your product partially based on the expenses of producing that product with a service company sometimes it feels like we pick a number out of thin air. [00:19:21] And that doesn't feel good. So building a pricing model is really important. But the snap system is in that order for a reason, because the limiting thinking is your first issue. So I teach in my book, how do you shift the way you think? The second piece, narrow your focus is about finding those buyers who understand the value you bring. [00:19:46] That means they also will understand your pricing model and they're going to be such great clients because they already value you and the assess your value is about building your pricing [00:20:00] model and I teach how to do that in the book as well and the last piece is practice your power that is all about communicating and the huge challenge we have as women is that we're typically raised not to talk about ourselves. [00:20:15] And that if you talk about yourself, it's bragging and that doesn't feel good. So I'm based in Houston, Texas in the U S and we have a saying here in Texas that it's not bragging if it's true. And I grew up believing that, that we can talk about ourselves effectively without it feel like. Feeling like it's bragging so that is part of what I teach as well is how do you communicate assertively and with confidence and I teach very specific techniques to do that. [00:20:50] Sarah: There's so much that, um, you just shared in just a few minutes. And I, I want to unpack some, uh, some of the things you, you mentioned. I think the [00:21:00] first thing that really stood out, and I think it's super important to, to repeat is you said applied new prices to new clients. Keep your old prices for existing clients. [00:21:14] And I think. That is really unique advice or, or, or maybe other people say it, but they don't say it often enough because I feel like there's this message that everybody hears, Oh, I need to always increase my prices. And then people go out and send out this email to all their clients saying my prices are now, you know, this much, and then they start losing all their clients and they wonder what they did wrong, um, well, they, what they did wrong is that. [00:21:46] The previous clients, they bought into the value that you sold them then, right? And so you really need to kind of communicate your new value first, so that the new clients [00:22:00] buy into this new value that you're selling. And I think that, yeah, that's key. And that's, that's really what I'm doing right now with the humane marketing circle as well. [00:22:09] Um, and I'm going to be very transparent about that. You know, the existing clients, they are members, let's say they bought in at a lower price and it's normal, uh, that when you build a community, there's not that much, uh, not that many members yet, not that much engagement, right. You could get in at a lower price, but now we have 60 members. [00:22:33] There's now four calls per month. Well, the value has increased like by huge amounts. And so obviously I had to raise my price. And so the new members will, yes, they will get in at a higher price, but they also buy in at a higher value. And I think that's really important to understand that you can't just expect. [00:22:54] Now, if I would send out to all my existing members saying, Oh, the price is [00:23:00] now double. Well, a few of them would probably say, well, okay, but that's too bad. I bought in at this rate. Now this won't work for me anymore. It's not that they don't value it. It's more just like. They bought into it when it was a different price. [00:23:18] And so they would be disappointed, uh, to see that, you know, the price now doubled. And I think that is so key to remember then just not do that with existing clients either. Um, so yeah, I really appreciate you saying that. [00:23:34] Patty: Yes, and think about it this way, too. The people who bought in at the beginning took a risk, right? [00:23:41] Yeah, there could have been very little value and I bet all of us have experienced that where we've gotten involved with a program And it turned out there really wasn't that much value to it Right. We took a risk spending our money and investing in something Because we believed in the person doing it or [00:24:00] we thought there was going to be a lot of value So not only did we take a risk, but we've remained loyal We've remained a member because we're happy to help that grow Exactly. [00:24:12] Yeah, and we've all had that experience. So I think there should be some reward For that taking a risk and being loyal and helping build the membership exactly and because of that Keeping the legacy prices makes sense to everybody. Mm hmm. [00:24:30] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, totally. Um, the other things you mentioned in your, in your SNAP system, um, so the first one, yeah, is basically the mindset piece, right? [00:24:42] How do you get, how do you stop believing some of these myths around pricing? And it's so important that Everything you do starts with the mindset shift. Um, and I'm so glad you, yeah, you talk about that too. And then, uh, just like in [00:25:00] marketing or branding as well, like anything we do online, well, we need to be very clear who we are talking to. [00:25:08] And so it seems like it's the same thing for our prices. The one question I have, and I guess it's the same in marketing, um, can we have different ideal clients? And if so, will the prices be different? [00:25:28] Patty: Possibly. So, yes, um, I think what you're describing is clients who want different services. [00:25:38] Sarah: It could be different. [00:25:39] It could be different services. Um, it could be different. It could be the same service, but different levels of access things like this, [00:25:48] Patty: right? Absolutely. And you can customize that. So that is the power of the pricing model, right? As you could use one pricing model with different levels. Right. [00:26:00] And, um, so I have two parts to my audience. [00:26:04] One are those that are earlier in their journey, they're very focused on growth and that's really who I wrote the book for. The other part of my audience are women that are further along in their journey and want a position for exit. So there is a difference in, it's the same pricing model that I use, but there's a difference because Transcribed There's a difference in complexity in terms of how I'm advising those business owners. [00:26:34] So yes, that works really well. You can also, and I give examples of this in the book, you can take a couple different pricing models and blend those together. And use kind of a hybrid that works really well. And I can give you an example. I work with a lot of accountants and many of them are outsourced chief financial officers. [00:26:58] So they're advising [00:27:00] other businesses about their business, their financial strategies and. The base pricing model that we developed is a monthly fee for the advisory services, but almost a hundred percent of the clients need some kind of project at the beginning. Let's say they need their bookkeeping cleaned up or they need an audit. [00:27:27] An informal audit done to figure out where they are financially. Sometimes things have gotten messed up with a previous bookkeeper. So they need that project at the beginning. So we have a scoping template that will help them do that to figure out the pricing for that project, and then they go into the monthly fee. [00:27:50] So that's a hybrid. Situation and regardless of the dollar amount that you put on that model the [00:28:00] model stays the same and that is something it's easier for your buyers to understand it easier for you to talk about it because all of a sudden when you're talking about it you're talking about the structure and it's not personal. [00:28:16] It's not about you or your expertise or your staff. It's about the structure of the pricing and your buyer will really understand that. Right. [00:28:26] Sarah: So if I'm understanding this correctly, when you talk about the pricing model, that means it's specific to your business. And in the case of the, uh, outsourced, uh, CFO, uh, it could take some done for you work and then kind of a retainer portion. [00:28:45] Right. And so it just depends on what kind of services. You are, um, delivering and how would this, because I have a lot of coaches who, who are listening, could you give me an idea of how [00:29:00] this could work if you're mainly selling your coaching services, could there be a done for you proportion to it? How could you, um, Come up with a creative pricing model. [00:29:13] Patty: So it would really depend on the services the coaches are offering. So most coaches, especially business coaches, are helping them with different aspects of their business. So that's why a monthly amount, perhaps it's paid at the beginning of every month, what I could call a retainer. Perhaps that is a really good method. [00:29:36] Now, the reason That people are afraid to do that is because they feel as though they might get taken advantage of. They're still thinking in hours and they're thinking. What right there thinking well what if my client calls me like three times a day and it's kind of driving me crazy and all this stuff and i'm not really being compensated for that because i have this flat [00:30:00] rate monthly fee so that goes back to boundaries and setting expectations so i believe that. [00:30:10] When we're talking about finding your ideal client, that's backwards because you need to find an ideal buyer and help them be ready to buy so that you can then help them become an ideal client. That does not happen by accident. And it happens when you set and manage those expectations at the very beginning. [00:30:33] Once they become a client and you draw those boundaries and you help them understand what's included and what is not included. And then if they need. extra help, then you have the ability to go back to them and say, well, you'll recall that our setup is that this includes two meetings a month and emails. [00:30:55] If you would like to add some meetings or calls, I have this piece that you [00:31:00] can add on to it. And this is what it would cost again, structural, not personal. And it makes it so much easier to go back to your client and say, I'm happy to help you. And here's what it will cost to add on this piece and whether or not your client is going to say, yes, depends on if they can afford it. [00:31:21] And if they value it. And if you've shown them every step of the way, the kind of value that you bring. So going back to what you said a few minutes ago about there is no cookie cutter solution. That is true of everything in your business and most importantly, pricing. There is no cookie cutter answer and you need to figure out what works in your business with the population that you want to work with. [00:31:49] And right now you may not have a population of ideal clients. You may feel as though you have to take everyone who comes to you. In order to generate enough revenue [00:32:00] and that is a trap it's a really unfortunate trap and a very common one so if you will take a step back and really go out and find your ideal buyer you have to define who that is and then go find them and I give some strategies in the book once you do that then you'll you will notice a night and day difference because. [00:32:25] Then you're working with people that you're excited to work with. You get great results. They're willing to put in the work and you're not just taking anyone who comes to you. And it makes that whole pricing conversation kind of a non issue because everyone understands the value. [00:32:43] Sarah: Yeah, let's talk about this value. [00:32:46] Um, because I think that's one thing that is hugely important for pricing, right? Uh, so how, what are some strategies that you can share that would help listeners? [00:33:00] Communicate their value better, because if we said it before, you can't just increase your prices. You need to, I think, first increase your confidence. [00:33:10] Uh, so I guess to go back to the myths, right, that's where you need to stop and start on working on your confidence and in your mindset. And then and then also communicate your value in a different way so what are some ways that you have seen with clients how did they start to communicate their value [00:33:30] Patty: differently one of the problems that we start with is that we think value is. [00:33:38] All about the results. It is largely about results and you certainly want to get results, but I bet your audience is already getting good results and I bet they pride themselves on that because most of us are high achievers and we, that's the problem with over delivering [00:34:00] is it's such a slippery slope because once you say, okay, I'll add that. [00:34:05] I'm not going to charge you extra. I'll go ahead and add that service. Where can where do you stop right and your client doesn't understand the value because you just gave it to them for free So again, it's a trap and then how do you say no in the future, right? It becomes more and more difficult. We feel more and more afraid so When you start things from the very beginning It's really helpful. [00:34:34] So Some examples of how can you build value think about all the things? In fact, let me share an exercise that your audience can do today, and that is find a, an accountability partner, someone who knows you well, knows your business, you know them and their business, and you're about the same point in your journey, [00:35:00] and you are going to write down. [00:35:04] Everything of value that you think the other person provides for their clients, and they're going to do the same thing for you, then you're going to exchange. And it's a really powerful exercise because they will put things on your list. That you would never have thought of. So when I did this exercise many, many years ago, the thing that surprised me most is that the first item on the list that I received was calm and that I have a calming voice and a calming demeanor. [00:35:38] I would never have put that on my list. [00:35:41] Sarah: Yeah, because you just are the way you are. Right. And so you exactly know that about, well, maybe you knew it, but you didn't think it was a value because. You just assumed everybody [00:35:52] Patty: was like that. That's exactly right. And then I went and tested the things on my list, and every [00:36:00] time I would ask them, so what do you think of calm as one of the points of value? [00:36:05] And every single person I talked to, clients and colleagues, they all said, oh, of course. Absolutely. You have the most calming voice and my clients would say, and I know if I call you and I'm completely freaked out about something, you're going to share a different perspective and it's going to calm me down and I'm going to be able to make better decisions. [00:36:29] So it's tremendously valuable, but I didn't recognize that. So you will be surprised at what people put on your list. And that's why it's such a powerful exercise. Then once you get your list, go test it. And ask people in your circle. The other thing that we often overlook is our network, your network. If you've spent time and energy building your network of people and contacts and those other [00:37:00] experts, that is incredible value for your clients. [00:37:04] And yet, just like being calm, we think, Oh, but you know, everybody has a network and everybody thinks, you know, that's, that's what you do in business. But I will tell you, if you can shortcut something for your clients by making an introduction to somebody that you already trust, that is a huge value. So those kinds of things that we are not thinking of on a day to day basis will help build value. [00:37:34] If you have staff, even if they're contractors, they don't have to be employees, but anyone that helps you in your business. That is valuable to your clients because anybody you have helping you means you get to focus on what you do best. And that helps your clients. Yeah, [00:37:53] Sarah: that's such a good point. Yeah, it's, it's, it's the small things. [00:37:59] That [00:38:00] again, like you said, we don't think of that are actually make the big difference and, and, and sometimes it's in, I talk in the selling like a human book, I talk about tangible value and intangible value. And so some of the things you just mentioned is intangible, right? Well, how does calming that's going to help my inner. [00:38:24] Garden, right? And so that's kind of intangible where some of the tangible value is, is maybe something that is really easy for you. For example, what's really easy for me is to write someone's LinkedIn profile. I've done that for 15 years, right? So it's really easy for me, for someone else, for my clients. [00:38:44] That is a huge burden. And so they're like super appreciative of me adding this just as an add on, uh, service. Right. And so that, that's the, kind of the done for you aspects that you can add that then [00:39:00] also kind of show this tangible value where they can say, okay, check, you know, this is now also off my plate. [00:39:07] And there are, there, there's not one that's better than the other. I feel like tangible and intangible. They are equal in, especially in the times we are now, like serenity, calm, focus, all of these things are so super valuable. So I'm really glad you, you brought those up and, and what a great exercise. Yeah. [00:39:27] To do that with a friend who then brings out things that you didn't even know about. Right. Yeah. What are some things, uh, advice that you could give. Someone who's, who's just starting out and, and are, is probably struggling still with this idea of, uh, determining fair pricing, where would you tell them to start? [00:39:51] It's probably definitely the, you know, stop the, the myths. That's probably the first step. But then if we go into the more tangible things, [00:40:00] where would you tell them to start? [00:40:02] Patty: Well, you know. I've experienced exactly what you're describing just starting out. So in a former life, I had a business in political consulting and lobbying and had that business for about eight years. [00:40:15] And the challenge that I experienced was that my revenue was tied to the election cycle in the U. S. So I was on this rollercoaster all the time, revenue ups and downs. So that was really frustrating. And if there were resources to help me. Grow my business and solve those problems. I didn't know how to find those resources and I didn't know who to trust. [00:40:41] So that was really frustrating for me. I also, I was a really good consultant, but I didn't know how to price and I didn't know how to sell and. When I went out to try and find programs and courses and figure all that out and I took a lot of those What I found is that [00:41:00] primarily they were designed by men for men and they weren't working for me And when I started talking to my friends who were business owners, they said the same thing Well, I tried that method and it didn't work for me either and at first we think it's us We think, oh, well, I just can't make that work. [00:41:18] The problem is they're not understanding. Those programs are not understanding the way women think, the way we operate, the way we struggle, how we're juggling a million things, including our families and our businesses and our personal needs and all of those things and sometimes taking care of parents. [00:41:41] And so I've been in that situation and. I really struggled when I was starting my business in political consulting, and that's why I started developing my own programs, because it's designed by a woman, by me, specifically for other women business owners. And that [00:42:00] has worked really well. So I would say if you're just starting out, take advantage of the shortcuts that are available to you. [00:42:09] Don't struggle for as many years as I did. I wish someone had. Been able to provide some relief for me, but I had to figure it out myself. And so what I would recommend is read your hidden advantage, because that is the recipe for the different steps that you can take with the snap system of how you can learn how to price, how to deal with your limiting beliefs, how to find the right people that you want to work with. [00:42:40] And when I say right, people, right. People for you. Right. So you probably already know who you do want to work with and who you do not want to work with. You can start with who you don't want to work with, right? Sometimes that's easier and rule [00:43:00] out the people. So my guess is no one in your audience wants to work with somebody who is arrogant and mean. [00:43:07] All right, definitely. Okay, so if we eliminate all the arrogant, mean people, then you can start to pair back. Well, what's the opposite of that? Who do I really want to work with? I want to work with kind, giving, thoughtful, smart people. And then I start. Really creating a picture. So a colleague of mine asked me not too long ago, if I had to pick a fictional character as my ideal buyer, who would it be? [00:43:39] And it only took me about 10 seconds to realize, have you ever seen the show, the X Files? Okay. Dana Scully is my ideal buyer. If, if she was a business owner, she would absolutely be my ideal buyer because she's a high achieving, highly educated woman. She is devoted to her [00:44:00] work. Sometimes she thinks her work is her hobby and she takes responsibility. [00:44:05] She makes good decisions. She believes in evidence based science, but she's open to new ideas. That really describes my ideal buyer. And when you can think of a fictional character in that way, that may help you determine who you really want to work with, then you want to attract them in your messaging and how you talk about yourself, your value, and then you want to go out and find that person. [00:44:37] And remember that even if you're selling into big companies, you're still selling to a person. It's still a human being. And when I say selling, I don't mean convincing. I mean, taking them on a sales journey so that they're ready to buy and they understand the value and they're excited to work with you. [00:44:59] [00:45:00] Yeah, [00:45:00] Sarah: yeah, I call it resonating. And so it's very similar, right? Because we're not pushing and it's just being present out there and yeah, resonating with the right clients. So they come into your gentle sales path and in the gentle sales path, there was no convincing, just like you mentioned people. And I guess that's why I have focused so heavily on marketing because. [00:45:28] When you market the human way, you then don't almost don't need to sell anymore because then it's just, it's just a human conversation that has to do with money, but there is no pushing kind of, you know, it's not a unidirectional sales conversation where you're pushing something. So, [00:45:51] Patty: and I believe. Yeah, I believe the same thing. [00:45:54] And again, that works so much better and more effectively for women. [00:45:59] Sarah: Yeah, [00:46:00] exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I was reflecting on this whole thing with the, you know, with this feminine energy and the, the cookie story, like, cause we have obviously male listeners as well. And I, I'm just actually curious. To, I would love to hear if you're listening to this and you're in a male body, uh, I would love to hear whether you see this happening as well in the business world, I'd be curious because I see it even in like mastermind groups or small communities like that where, you know, we're very value aligned and the males are very much Hey. [00:46:43] Um, aligned also with the feminine energy. And yet I always feel like to them, it's just normal to be seen, to take up space. And it's not the same for the women in the group, right? [00:47:00] Even though the values are aligned, even though they're not, you know, macho type guys who, you know, that they, but it's just comes natural. [00:47:10] And I think it's, it's part of our history. It's just how we've, yeah, we've kind of. Evolved over time and always looking at our, our moms and the moms before that is really part of this, uh, story that we need to let [00:47:29] Patty: go of. There is and also if you keep in perspective, the pressure that is put on the guys. [00:47:36] So I have two brothers and when I was growing up, there was a lot of pressure put on my brothers because they were expected to be breadwinners. I, as a woman. Now, again, you can think of this as chauvinistic, but I wasn't expected to be a breadwinner. I became a breadwinner, but I wasn't raised that way. [00:47:59] And I had to [00:48:00] learn a lot of these skills, which I did with my political consulting business. And but then I have to say, all of a sudden I was 35 years old, had three little kids at home, a thriving business and a surprise divorce. And I was thrust into the situation of all of a sudden I'm now responsible because there was no financial support. [00:48:25] So I'm responsible for raising my three children on my own with no emotional, logistical or financial support. And that is why I closed my political consulting business. And went to get a job and part of that was because a lobbying required a lot of travel and I knew that I needed to be home to stabilize things for the kids at that time. [00:48:49] My youngest was about 2 and he just turned 31. So, I have raised my children myself and I have, um, help them all get through [00:49:00] college and graduate school and launch their careers. And now they're all 3 business owners. Nice. Congratulations. Thank you. So, you know, all the twists and turns that we experience in our lives. [00:49:11] I wasn't raised to be a breadwinner, but I became that because I had to. And because of that, those skills that I learned. Over the course of my life now, I really can put them to work in teaching other women how to build your confidence You have more power and choices than you realize And again part of that is how we're raised and it's generational So 30 or 40 years from now, maybe that won't be the case for women But right now it is and we are very influenced by previous generations and the role models that we grew up with Yeah, [00:49:56] Sarah: let's hope it won't be like that anymore 30, 30 years [00:50:00] from now, or hopefully even less. [00:50:02] Patty: Exactly. [00:50:03] Sarah: Wonderful. Well, this has been really interesting and, uh, yeah, just very great and deep conversation. Thank you so much, Patty. Please do mention your book again, and where people can find you, your website, everything. [00:50:18] Patty: You bet, and thank you again for having me, this has been great. You can contact me through my website, theblockgroup. [00:50:27] net, and if you're interested in the book, There are several bonuses that you can download for free that are companion pieces to the book, including a video training called The Value Equation. And the book is called Your Hidden Advantage, which you can find on Amazon. But if you go to yourhiddenadvantage. [00:50:46] com, you can also access the bonuses. [00:50:50] Sarah: Wonderful. I'll make sure to put those links in the show notes. Thank you. I always ask one last question, uh, Patty, and that is what are you grateful for [00:51:00] this week or today? [00:51:02] Patty: Well, I have a new grandson and, and he made me a grandmother. So I am, he's just turning six months old. [00:51:12] And very sadly, my mom passed away about six months ago. She, she died a month or two before he was born. And, um, It was very shocking because she wasn't ill and she was so happy. And my mom and I were very, very close. And in fact, the book is in many ways, a tribute to my mom. And there are stories about her. [00:51:37] And as I was writing the book and she was so excited for it to come out and I would ask her, can I use this story? Can I use this photograph? And she was so excited with all the pieces that I was adding to the book. And. Sadly, she passed away very suddenly, and it turns out that my new grandson is named [00:52:00] after her. [00:52:01] So it's really a lovely tribute, and I'm so grateful that I'm grateful for my family, my children, for sure, and for my new grandson. [00:52:11] Sarah: Yeah, it's wonderful. Yeah. Sorry for your mom's passing, but who knows? Maybe he, he really took her spirit and, and came back. Yes. It's wonderful. Thanks so much for spending time with me today. [00:52:26] Thanks, Patty. Thank you. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Patti and her work at theblockgroup. net and Patti has a free training called The Value Equation, which you can get for free by signing up for the bonuses that are companion pieces for Patti's book, Your Hidden Advantage, Unlock the Power to Attract Right Fit Clients and Boost Your Revenue, so definitely check it out. [00:52:56] Uh, look up her book and see if that's a good fit for [00:53:00] you. If you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more about the circle at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And again, a reminder that the early bird discount of 200 for the Marketing Like We're Human, aka the Client Resonator program, is ending on July 31st. [00:53:25] So if you are interested in that program and would like to benefit from that discount, please make sure you book a call with me before that deadline. It doesn't matter if we speak after, I will still apply the discount, but just send me an email and we'll book a call. And, uh, yeah, I'd love to have to have you on that, uh, program. [00:53:47] You find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M one 69. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers [00:54:00] such as the humane business manifesto in the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. [00:54:11] Thank you so much for listening. And being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

In this episode we dive into the topic of service lines. In this solo episode I explore the relevance of service lines for service-based businesses and draws parallels to product lines commonly used in product-based businesses. I explain how service lines can provide clarity, structure, and differentiation to offerings. Using the example of the Humane Marketing service line, I highlight various products and services within the line that help individuals adopt Humane Marketing in their business. I discussed the benefits of implementing service lines, such as showcasing expertise, targeting specific niches, and helping clients understand pricing models. Tune in to gain insights on how service lines can benefit your service-based business and enhance your marketing approach. In this episode I talked about: Product lines vs. Service lines The benefits of having service lines in service-based businesses Steps to implement service lines in your business The role of service lines in pricing and packaging services Having multiple service lines targeting different client segments Effective marketing and promotion of different service lines and much more [00:00:00] Sarah Santacroce: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Roche, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like We're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start. [00:00:44] Implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. [00:01:03] This is a closed community. Of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. [00:01:30] Find out more. At Humane Marketing slash Circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash Coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane Marketing. [00:02:30] Hello friends. It's been a while since I've done a solo episode, so in today's episode it's just me by myself talking about the P of product at. Term that we often hear related to product is the term product line. Uh, clearly this is a term that's mainly used for a product-based business, one that has different products and clusters of products that fall under the same product line.[00:03:00] [00:03:00] Each product is sold individually, but they are part of the same product line. For example, a shampoo, hair wax, hairspray, hair mask, et cetera, et cetera. So that's usually what we call a product line. So I was thinking, well, can this apply also to a service-based business? Can we have service lines? And the answer is a clear yes. [00:03:25] And we should, um, so maybe to start, It would help to understand what a service line is. Um, just like a product line, like I just said, consists of a group of related products. Well, a service line refers to a collection of related services offered by a business. So these services may differ in their specific features, pricing, ideal clients, or any other distinguishing factors, but they all. [00:03:57] Fall under the umbrella of the same [00:04:00] service line. Think of it as a way to categorize and organize the services you offer to your clients. Let's take Humane Marketing as an example in the Humane Marketing service line. Uh, we have this podcast, which is obviously free. It's a free product, if you will, or a service, I don't really know. [00:04:23] Um, the marketing like or human book, which is a low cost investment to learn more about humane marketing. So that's a product, the humane marketing circle. Our community, a monthly subscription for Humane Marketers. That's a service. The marketing like we're human, aka the Client Resonator program, which starts again on August 24th, by the way. [00:04:46] So that's my flagship program that I run to twice per year. Um, and that's related to the seven Ps of humane marketing. Um, So it's a service program and then one-on-one [00:05:00] coaching with one of our certified Humane marketing coaches, or with myself. So again, another service. And then finally, bespoke humane marketing workshops for organ organizations. [00:05:13] So all of these products or services have one thing in common, helping individuals adopt humane marketing in their business. So it's all about. Humane marketing. Then I also have a humane selling service line, which starts with the selling, like we're human book, the community, the Fair and authentic Pricing mini course. [00:05:37] So that's a standalone, uh, service slash product because it comes with a video course, but also one-on-one session with me. Um, That talks about pricing, and so that's why it fits more into the Humane Selling service line and then also the one-on-one coaching, uh, with me. Here, the main objective is related to [00:06:00] sales. [00:06:00] Um, they are distinct service lines with different objectives, and each product service is a standalone offer, and yet they relate to each other just like, uh, shampoo and hair racks do. So obviously not everyone needs hair waxs, but some people want the whole service line. So there, there's like a natural progression to. [00:06:26] You know, go from one thing to the next. I purposely don't call it a funnel because, uh, if you're a regular listener here, you know that we don't talk about sales funnels. We talk about gentle sales paths. And so I guess gentle sales path would kind of be similar to this idea of a service line. So why do we need. [00:06:50] Service lines as service-based businesses? Well, there are several benefits to adopting this approach. First, uh, service lines [00:07:00] provide clarity and structure to your offerings by grouping similar services to together you create a more organized framework that helps your clients understand the different options available to them. [00:07:14] Secondly, service lines allow you to showcase your expertise in specialization so people know. Okay, SU. She has two service lines, humane Marketing, humane selling. Uh, I'm actually adding a, a third one or it's already kind of dormant and I'll tell you about it more in a second. Um, just as a product line can cater to different customers needs and preferences, service lines enable you to target specific niches or industries and position yourself as an expert in those areas. [00:07:47] And this can enhance your brand reputation and attract clients who are looking for specialized services. Tailored to their unique requirements. And thirdly, it also helps your [00:08:00] clients understand your pricing model. Some products or services are at the lower end and others are at the higher end. In order to get started to, to put in place your service lines, there are a few steps to follow. [00:08:16] Step one is to really have a look at all your current services. If you have several services already, um, Take a close look at the services you offer and then identify any natural groupings or similarities. Just like I just said, you know, is it se, is it selling related? Is it marketing related? In my case, that's how I define the different service lines. [00:08:42] Are there services that compliment each other or serve the same ideal client? These are potential candidates for your service lines, step two. Then involves defining the unique value proposition for each service line. So again, Mar, is it marketing [00:09:00] or is it selling? What sets each group of services apart from the others? [00:09:05] Is there a specific benefit or outcome that clients can expect from choosing that service line? I told you about marketing and selling one. Outcome is a better marketing strategy. The other outcome is a better sales strategy. Clearly articulating the value of each service line will help you differentiate them and attract the right customers. [00:09:29] Step three is all about branding and marketing. Just as a product line needs effective branding to stand out. Your service lines should have their own distinctive branding elements. This could include a unique name, logo, website, section, and other marketing collaterals tailored to each service line. By giving each service line its own identity, you make it easier for clients to understand and engage with the [00:10:00] different offerings. [00:10:01] In my, in my case, everything to do with marketing is in the color emerald green. Everything to do with humane selling is in the color earth, red, so, And as I hinted at before, as of next year when I have the third book about being human in business, I'll have a third service line, which will be all about sustainable and humane business building practices and changing our relationship to work. [00:10:33] That third service line is in dark blue. And you already see those colors reflected on my site. I planned for them when I did my big rebrand two years ago. So I already have on the homepage, you already see Humane Business in blue. It's just that, um, I didn't have the different services that go under the service line yet. [00:10:57] So, um, that's what I have for you [00:11:00] to wrap up. I thought it would be fun to ask chat g PT what kind of questions listeners might have after listening to this short episode. And here are a few that it suggested Are service lines applicable to solo entrepreneurs or small businesses? In the answer, um, that. [00:11:20] It helped me, uh, write, but then of course, I, uh, I added to it and corrected it. So, yes, service lines are applicable to solo entrepreneurs and small businesses, as well as I just demonstrated, um, with my own example. They can help you organize your services, create a clear value proposition, and resonate with specific client segments. [00:11:44] Should all services offered by a business be part of a service line? Not necessarily. While grouping services into service lines can provide clarity and structure, it's not mandatory for all services to be part [00:12:00] of a services line. Some services may be unique and or standalone offerings that do not fit with any, uh, particular service line. [00:12:09] I'm thinking of a new program called The Business Book Alchemist. I'm launching this fall to help fellow renegade authors write their first book that becomes part of their life's work. It may fit into the humane business service line, but I'm not sure about that yet. So right now, I created as a standalone one-off program. [00:12:33] How do service lines help with pricing and packaging of services? Service lines help with pricing and packaging by providing a framework for differentiating services and creating pricing tiers. So by categorizing services into service lines, you can offer different packages or pricing models based on the specific value and outcomes associated with each service [00:13:00] line. [00:13:01] Can I have multiple service lines targeting different client segments? Yes, you can. Different clients have different needs and you can tailor your services accordingly. So each service line can focus on a specific ideal client industry or niche. So this just makes me also think of my, um, workshops for organizations. [00:13:27] It, it's a complete different service line again, uh, from all the other services that I offered to, uh, entrepreneurs, heart-centered entrepreneurs. How do you market and promote different service lines effectively? Uh, we talked about that to promote and market different service lines, it helps to develop distinct branding elements for each service line. [00:13:53] So unique names like Humane Marketing, humane selling, Hume Unique logos, different [00:14:00] colors, website sections, and other marketing collateral tailored to each service line. I hope you found this short episode, solo episode helpful, and, uh, it makes you think a little bit about your own services, how you bundle them, if there's any kind of logic in terms of service lines in it. [00:14:23] This is obviously, uh, a strategy that applies more to someone who has been in business for a few years already and maybe has different services and products, but without a clear strategy. If this is your case and you'd like to work on this with a coach, it's the kind of thing that I love helping my clients with. [00:14:43] Um, so have a look at my one-on-one coaching page on humane marketing. I also mentioned the marketing, like we're human. Uh, Program, aka the client Resonator, as being one product of my product slash service line. So that's [00:15:00] my flagship program to either build the foundation to market from within from the start. [00:15:06] But it also applies to entrepreneurs who have been in business for several years, but feels like, feel like there's some kind of detachment from their business because they've not built it from the inside out. They've billed it from a need, you know, to pay the bills or from a need to serve a specific client, but they haven't started from who they are. [00:15:32] Uh, and, uh, their values, their worldview. So, You are your business. That's why in the marketing, like we're human program, we start with you, with your passion, your why, and your personal power. Uh, of course, uh, it's based on the seven Ps of humane marketing, the ones we follow here on this podcast, and I run it live again this August, starting August 24th. [00:15:58] So if this, [00:16:00] Gets you curious. Have a look at Humane Marketing slash program to see if this your, this is your next step, and make sure to read the testimonials and case studies to get a real feel for the transformation you can expect. Let's get on a call and talk about it like humans. Thanks so much for listening. [00:16:23] You find the show notes of this episode at. Humane Marketing. Hm, 1 68. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like We're Human. And selling like we're human. [00:16:47] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who care for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you [00:17:00] want to see in the world. Speak soon.

In this week's episode of The Humane Marketing Show, we have the pleasure of speaking with Tom Greenwood about the concept of a Humane Web. Tom is the co-founder of Wholegrain Digital, a trailblazing digital agency that prioritizes sustainability as a Certified B Corp. Renowned for his expertise in business, design, and web technology's role in addressing environmental issues, Tom is also the author of the enlightening book, Sustainable Web Design. Throughout our thought-provoking conversation, we explore the meaning of a Humane Web, its connection to ethical design, and the crucial role website owners play in contributing to a more humane web. We delve into best practices for prioritizing user wellbeing while achieving marketing objectives, discuss the social and environmental impacts of AI, and highlight successful examples of organizations embracing the principles of the Humane Web. Tune in now to gain a fresh perspective on the future of digital marketing and web design. In this thought-provoking episode we discuss about: How Tom's newsletter readers described a humane web and what Tom's definition is What humane web has to do with ethical design Best practices for website owner to do their part to contribute to a Humane Web The winners of a humane web: humans AND the planet The social and environmental impacts of AI How Tom sees the future of humane web and much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:30] Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of People of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If you're a regular here, you kind of already know what I'm talking about. And these are the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here and you're curious about those seven Ps of humane marketing, you can go to humane.marketing/.[00:03:00] [00:03:00] One page, the number one and the word page, and download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of humane marketing. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. So today I'm speaking with Tom Greenwood about a humane Web. When I first saw him, uh, talk about this in one of his newsletters, I was like, well, I just have to talk to Tom, but before you, I tell you a bit more about Tom. [00:03:33] Allow me a moment to share that. I just. Open the doors again to my marketing like we're human, a k a, the Client Resonator program. So this is my flagship program. It's a three month program that is tightly linked actually to this podcast because it follows the same framework, the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. [00:03:57] It's a deep dive into these seven [00:04:00] Ps to help you discover who you are. What your passion is and then bring more of you to your marketing. Market from within, so to speak. So we're really kind of flipping the script and starting with ourselves rather than the usual marketing program that immediately goes to your ideal client, the avatar, and then focuses on, uh, techniques and strategies. [00:04:26] We're starting with ourself first, so it's almost like a business. Or a personal development slash business development program. Uh, it's more than just marketing. It really is building the foundation for your life's work. And we start with passion, personal power, and then go into the outer. So we start with the inner and then go into the outer, the people, the product, the pricing, the promotion, and the partnership with others. [00:04:56] We go deep in an intimate group and. [00:05:00] Really come out transformed with a business that you are truly aligned with. It's a hybrid program with a 20 to 30 minute video to watch each week. Uh, that shares a bit of the framework, the principles. And a lot of, uh, transparent information and kind of lived experience for, from myself. [00:05:21] Uh, it comes also with a beautiful workbook, with journal prompts, and then we have a live group call on Zoom each week to go deeper. So we, I'm not teaching anything on these group calls. I we're just having the space together to go deeper, and that's why. It's such a transformational program because we really get to share and uh, and. [00:05:46] Yeah, make it unique for each person. Who is it for? Well, whether you have one year, five years, or more than 10 years business experience, it's never too late to go back to create the [00:06:00] foundation and is instead of just a business, really create your life's work so you can truly market from. Who you are because that's when things flow freely is when you market from who you are. [00:06:14] And the best is always to hear it from other participants and not just ha have it all from me. So have a look at humane.marketing/program. There are plenty of testimonials. And also a handful of in-depth case studies that really show you the transformation that people have gone through. Book a call with me now to discuss if this is the right next step for you at this point in your business. [00:06:43] Again, it's starting in August. Uh, August 24th. I'm only running this live. Twice per week. So this is the last time, uh, this year it's a three month program, and yes, I would absolutely love to talk to you and see and find out [00:07:00] whether this is a good fit for you at this time. Okay with that, back to the P of People in today's episode. [00:07:09] So Tom Greenwood is the co-founder of Whole Grain Digital, a certified B Corp and Green Trail Blazer. In the digital agency world, Tom is known for writing and speaking about how business design and web technology can be part of the solution. To end environmental issues and is the author of the book Sustainable Web Design. [00:07:34] So in this, uh, thought-provoking episode, we discussed how Tom's newsletter readers described a humane web and what Tom's definition is of a humane web. What humane web has to do with ethical design, ethical web design. Best practices for website owners to do their part, to contribute to a [00:08:00] humane web, the winners of a humane web, humans and the planet, the social en and environmental impacts of ai. [00:08:11] How Tom sees the future of Humane Web, and I guess also AI and so much more. Let's listen to Tom and this concept of a humane web, which to me just sounds delightful. Let's tune in. Hi Tom Sok. See you and hang out with you for a little while to talk all things humane, like I just said offline. Right. [00:08:38] That's basically what we're here for. I heard you talking about Humane Web and I'm like, I gotta have him on the podcast. You're [00:08:47] Tom: humane. Yeah. And I likewise. I was excited when you reached out and I was like, huh, humane Marketing, like, great. We're on the same page. Yeah, exactly. [00:08:55] Sarah: So the, the. The way. Well, I've been on your email list [00:09:00] for a while, and then obviously when I saw you talking and actually asking readers about how a humane web would look like to them, uh, that's when you got my attention and I'm like, yeah, let's talk about this. [00:09:16] So I'm curious, um, what kind of answers did you get to this question when you asked your readers? [00:09:23] Tom: Yeah, it was really interesting and it, I mean, we got a lot of enthusiastic responses and it was, it was quite mixed. It sort of ranged from people talking about how um, basically like technology should be designed to like, respect humans in terms of like their privacy and their safety and, um, to make things more accessible in a sort of tangible ways to people with kind of maybe like a more like pie in the sky vision of like, A web that is like more personalized and it's actually like, like more like fragmented and [00:10:00] decentralized rather than this sort of like homogenized big tech kind of internet that, that we've come to. [00:10:07] Um, and then other people talking about like more like the experience that we have as humans and that actually, what if it was more. You know, like a garden that you can, or a library, like a place that you can kind of step into and browse calmly, slowly, mindfully relax into like find beauty and inspiration rather than it being like this high paced kind of intense experience that much of, much of the internet's become. [00:10:39] So it was really interesting just hearing kind of like that breadth of. Perspectives on like what that might mean. [00:10:45] Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. So interesting. I, I love this image of either the library or the the garden and why not a library in a garden. Exactly. Yeah. That'd be even better. So what that means to me is, yeah, you, [00:11:00] you said it after like what we're experiencing is something so intense and probably, um, Yeah. [00:11:09] It's more like the in our face experience where if you are going to a library, you are the one in control. You are the one who's going to look for information rather than just showing up and everybody's throwing information at you. Right. Is is that also what you Yeah. Exactly. Felt [00:11:25] Tom: that's what happened? [00:11:26] Yeah. Mm-hmm. That, that you are really in control of your own journey and, and it's your experience. For you to have and for you to lead rather than mm-hmm. You're kind of entering into these worlds where you're very much kind of led down a path. I mean, at best guided down a path at worst manipulated, you know, to perform certain actions. [00:11:48] Um, Yeah. And sort of, yeah, put people back in the driving seat in control of their own experience, um, in more of a conscious way. [00:11:56] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. That's so much aligned with humane marketing [00:12:00] because it, it, in the end, pretty much everything on the web is some type of marketing now, you know? Yeah. It's like wherever you go, You, they want you to enter into a funnel and then basically control your mind and control everything you do. [00:12:16] So it's, yeah, it's, it's very much the same in terms of humane marketing. It's like, well in, give the power back to the people. Right? Yeah. And it seems like that's the same, uh, idea here on, on Humane Web. So, so was that also your definition if you thought of it before? Or did you think of even something else, um, that you can add here? [00:12:41] Tom: Yeah, I think, I think it was a, a mixture of a mixture of things, but I think, I mean, the whole exploration and, and it's still an exploration to be honest at this stage, but the whole exploration that, that some of us at Whole Grain are doing into this concept of a humane web really came from sort of a [00:13:00] frustration that the internet kind of in the early days, Did seem like something that was gonna be very democratic and, you know, allow people to have a voice and controller and experience and share information with each other and build communities and, and it has all of that potential. [00:13:21] And yet more and more it feels like this thing where it's like it's, it's very much like a domain controlled by these big tech companies and where. You know, as you say, like we're we're manipulated into these funnels. It's like it's the web has become a web of funnels. Yeah. And, you know, and, and you enter into it kind of almost at your own risk. [00:13:41] And, and it's not an equal relationship. You're very much like you're going in on their terms. They're doing things behind the scenes to manipulate you that you don't even, you're not even aware of. There's like legal terms that you're effectively agreeing to just by. Like visiting a site or [00:14:00] using an online service. [00:14:01] Um, and then, and then, and then it's like, you know, there's the, also the fallout of like mental health and the fact that actually like, yeah, the internet should be serving us as humans, and yet you have this like, huge mental health crisis that's in par related to our relationship with digital technology and the internet. [00:14:19] And, and it's like, well, something's really wrong here that it's. There are like big corporations that are making vast profits out of the web, but at the same time that it's not that there's not any good things have come from it for, you know, most of us, like we all get some benefit from it day to day, but like on some level it feels like this is, this relationship isn't working like it's unhealthy. [00:14:42] Um, so what would it look like if we reimagine that and said, well, okay, let's kind of go back to the beginning. Take all of the. I guess take capitalism out of it for a minute and sort of say, well, like, let's just look at it as a technology. Like [00:14:58] Sarah: what? Remind me, Tom, [00:15:00] what was the name of the, it's escaping me right now. [00:15:03] Like when it first started, what did they call it? Um, Some term that I'm, I'm forgetting right now, but they actually said it, it's a conversation, you know, the web is a conversation. Um, yeah. So, so really, yeah. That's what you're saying. We need to go back to, right. To, to these early days of the [00:15:24] Tom: internet. [00:15:24] Exactly, exactly. Sort of like today's technology, but with yesterday's principles maybe. Yeah, [00:15:32] Sarah: yeah. Yeah. So much so. Yeah, so true. It's, it's, it's almost like we've. Made such a big, yeah, we lost our way. We lost our way. It's, it's kind of like kids who are given, you know, the, the, the gadget and then they just like lose their way because they're so excited about this s gadget and all, all the things you can do with it, and it ends up going the wrong way. [00:15:58] It ends up [00:16:00] going to almost like, Evil. Right? That's what we've done with this technology and, and or we, we can discuss whether it's you and I, it's definitely the, you know, the, there's always money behind it somehow now. Yeah. Where that was not the intent of, uh, the internet back in the days. [00:16:18] Tom: Yeah. I think that's the thing that it's, there's, there's so much potential to make money by manipulating people that. [00:16:27] In a way that you can't really do as easily in a physical environment. You know, like, you, like digital technology can kind of capture people for like, most of their waking hours. You know, like it's very addictive. You've got your phone with you like all the time. Um, it can ping you and like, you know, pull your attention back in when you start ignoring it in a way that like the physical world can't. [00:16:49] And yeah. And likewise, it's very easy to do like sneaky things in terms of how you. How you manipulate people to perform certain actions or to think a certain [00:17:00] way in ways that if you were in a physical environment, would be a bit more like, I, I think just a bit more tangible for people to sort of see what's going on and think, Hmm, this doesn't feel quite right. [00:17:10] I'm not sure I wanna shop here. Um, right. Um, You know, and even things like privacy terms, you know, that you kind of get sort of forced to like click a button to say like, I agree before you come in. But there's some like giant legal contract behind it that they know that nobody's gonna read. Whereas if you went into a shop, you enter the supermarket and they said, well, before you enter, like, please sign this 30 page contract. [00:17:32] Yeah. You'd probably be like, nah, I, I'm not, I'm not gonna shop there. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to the green grass. It's, you think about, it's insane. Yeah. Yeah. It is and it's very one-sided. It's sort of like, sign this or you can't come in. Um mm-hmm. So [00:17:47] Sarah: what's the solution? You're working on a solution? Um, what [00:17:53] Tom: is it? [00:17:53] Well, to say we're working on a solution might be overstating it, but we're exploring what [00:18:00] alternatives might look like and I think, I think there are. Like, none of this is like necessary, you know, like we talked about kind of the early days of the web when it wasn't like this on the web. I think the early, you know, pioneers of the web, like Tim Burners, Lee didn't envision it becoming like this. [00:18:17] No. Um, so I think inherently like the principal. Is that you could design and build digital services that don't treat people in this way. And start by actually thinking about like, how you serve their needs. What, what's really gonna be good for them as humans. And do it on the principle like you would've done like any kind of good business in the past where it's like, if we really serve people well, they'll keep coming back rather than if we, if we manipulate them and get 'em addicted. [00:18:49] Um, Then they'll keep coming back. Um, and I do think like there's some challenges in that for certain types of business models where the business models are [00:19:00] inherently based on that principle. Um, you know, some of the social media giants for example. It's like that's I. That's what they're built upon. But on the other hand, I think the vision we're trying to create is that if we actually created beautiful online spaces that treat people well and that they love being in and where they can build real, meaningful connections with other human beings or, or have space to just explore and learn things and, and enjoy things kind of on their own terms that. [00:19:30] Okay. They might not necessarily like, be able to compete head to head with, like Facebook for example. Um, on, but they're not trying to compete directly with Facebook. They're giving people an alternative. They're giving people a choice. It's like, go, you know, go and spend your time here because it respects you and it's a great place to be rather than go over there where you're being exploited. [00:19:49] Um, so yeah, it's so like we are, we are not, I don't think we're ever gonna be, be in a position where we can say, look, hey, look, we've got this solution, but I think we can let help with that [00:20:00] conversation of exploring the principles and trying to embed them into some of our own work and trying to like, You know, experiment with them and see what works and see what doesn't. [00:20:08] Sarah: And don't you think the change is gonna come from bottom up? Uh, not from the big ones. You know that they're not gonna change anything because their model works. It's exactly, it's not scarcity, uh, and addiction like you said. And so why would they change anything? Because the money keeps coming in. So they're not the ones who are going to change. [00:20:28] It's, it's the smaller ones and also, Us, the clients, the customers who are just fed up, uh, with being abused and manipulated. [00:20:38] Tom: Yeah, exactly. It's like the big tech companies have nothing. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by, like, doing things in a more humane way, I think, which is really sad. [00:20:48] And I think it's a kind of, probably a reflection more of the broader mm-hmm. Structure of our society and economy. Um, but equally like we have a, we do have a lot of [00:21:00] personal. Like power over our own destiny. Like we're not actually like hooked into any of these things. Like we can choose to go wherever we want on the internet. [00:21:07] And um, and I think if people offer really humane alternatives, then hopefully, like a growing kind of number of people will start looking at those and thinking, yeah, okay, this feels like a better place to be. Totally. [00:21:24] Sarah: And, and I think what I've actually seen in the marketing world is that, Even small, uh, companies, one person companies, entrepreneurs, since the only models we had were the big. [00:21:39] Tech companies and the, you know, the, the ones that are basically manipulating everybody. This became the going model. Yeah. Everybody started using, even on the very small business level, using the same kind of, uh, you know, scarcity and, and manipulative approaches. Yeah. So over the last 20 years, um, [00:22:00] This just became the norm, right? [00:22:02] That, yeah, it was just a given. If you were in business, that's the way you had to market and, and, and use technology and, and, and all that and all actually all the tech that I'm using in my business, you know, where I'm trying so hard to create a humane business, the tech, uh, so I'm talking like shopping carts or, or e-learning programs. [00:22:26] It's all built on non-human, uh, principles. Yeah. It's all built on the idea. Let's get as many people in and seldom our crap. Yeah. [00:22:37] Tom: Basically. [00:22:38] Sarah: And it, and it's just really hard to actually use technology and yet doing in a, doing it in a humane way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's really, really hard. [00:22:49] Tom: I think one of the sort of, I guess sort of classically, one of the. [00:22:54] The, the alternatives to that kind of hyper commercial model has in the, in the digital [00:23:00] space, has been the open source world, which is mm-hmm. You know, people building things with people for the people, um, and largely giving them away for free so that everybody can benefit from them. And I think that is probably where, like the solutions will come from. [00:23:15] Um, I understand. Mm-hmm. But, but as you sort of. Highlighted, like even some of those things have gone more in that kind of commercial direction just because that's the way things are done and, and some of those open source projects, as brilliant as they might be, have some sort of like commercial affiliation that sort of funds some of that community work. [00:23:36] And so the way that the projects are led has a bias towards like feeding that like kind of. Parent company or, um, whatever it might be, right? But, but I do think like that the, in pr in principle, the sort of the open source world is probably like the best, um, [00:24:00] place to, to get like a groundswell of, um, kind of bottom up change. [00:24:07] Sarah: I agree. Because it's also. You know, it's the people with the same values who come to create the solution and just give and, you know, know and trust and somewhere the money will come from. Yeah. But it doesn't mean that I have to exploit, um, uh, clients or, or potential, uh, customers. Yeah, [00:24:27] Tom: exactly. Yeah. [00:24:29] Sarah: So, so far we've talked about basically, uh, the win-win of the, the client and the seller, right? [00:24:38] Um, What I talk about and also what you were talking about is also, uh, a third win, which is the win for the planet. Yeah. Um, so talk to us how a humane web, and then maybe you can also talk a little bit about, um, web design, because that's also, uh, part of your expertise. Where is the [00:25:00] planet stand right now and how do we make it a winner as well in this [00:25:06] Tom: equation? [00:25:07] Yeah. So the, the environmental aspect is uh, something that's sort of, I think been left out of the conversation in the digital world largely until quite recently. And, and I think that's probably for a variety of reasons, partly because digital technology is relative relatively new in terms of its impact on our lives. [00:25:28] Um, but also because a lot of the environmental impact is sort of out of sight and out of mind. Um, You don't have like a chimney or an exhaust pipe on your computer and you know, it's sort of, it, it's a lot of, it's behind the scenes and we use terms like virtual, um, and the cloud as if like, the internet doesn't really exist, but it, it is a huge physical system. [00:25:52] You know, telecoms, networks that span the entire planet, um, satellites in space, like thousands of huge data [00:26:00] centers around the world. Billions of devices connected to the networks. So, If you take it as one big machine, it is the biggest machine that humans have ever created. And, and it consumes a huge amount of electricity. [00:26:13] You know, roughly the amount of electricity is the whole of the United Kingdom. Um, if you took it as one thing and the United Kingdom is like kind of one of the 10 biggest economies in the world. So that's, that's pretty crazy when you think about it. And. When you, uh, when you put that in terms of carbon emissions, which is essentially the emissions of producing all of that energy, um, it's, it's estimated generally somewhere between two and 4% of global carbon emissions, which is a lot because like aviation, which a lot of people think, you know, aviation's a serious problem, which it is. [00:26:49] Aviation is about 2% of global cognitions. Global shipping is about 2%. Um, I think steel is about, steel production is about 7%. So when you put, [00:27:00] you know, put that in context of basically the internet being somewhere in the range of two to 4%, um, and growing rapidly, especially with like the advent of, of, of AI and machine learning. [00:27:10] Um, it's, it's something that needs to be talked about. Um, and it hasn't really been talked about much until like the last two, three years really. Yeah, that's [00:27:25] Sarah: completely how I feel. I feel like this has just, yeah, probably emerged. Three years ago for me, where before I was like, well, I'm a virtual, you know, business owner, so I don't create any, any kind of problems. [00:27:40] And, and then starting to realize, okay, so, you know, there's all these different players that actually do, uh, impact how much carbon emissions I have. And, and you know, this was a, a whole. Transitions switching to, uh, a green or a greener host and, [00:28:00] and like making my website lighter and still working on that. [00:28:03] It's, it's like things that. You never think about just uploading, you know, two megabyte pictures on your website. Yeah. And then when you start to realize, wait a minute, they have to be hosted somewhere. And the, uh, and the server obviously runs on electricity, so every time you know this, this is creating carbon emissions. [00:28:24] So, so yeah. Tell us about ethical, um, you know, web design. Like what, what does that. Kind of just maybe a few really pragmatic tips that people can do right now to Yeah. Work on their website on, or at least become aware of that. Yeah. [00:28:44] Tom: You mean specifically from the environmental perspective? Yeah. Mm-hmm. [00:28:47] Yeah. So I mean, I think the, the, the way I find most helpful to think about it is that there's, there's a lot of waste on the internet. Um, And waste isn't good for [00:29:00] anybody, like any form of waste. And, but specifically in the internet, that waste generally is if you're wasting data, then you're wasting, you're wasting energy, um, which is bad for the environment, but it also has other. [00:29:14] Kind of commercial impacts and user experience impacts and so on. But that waste can come in a number of forms. Like first of all, like you just mentioned, you know, like having files that are just unnecessarily large, like image files, video files that are either like, maybe they're not required at all, but even if they are required, maybe they're, um, which is larger than they need to be, maybe they're, um, they're not optimized well, maybe they're not in like the most efficient file format. [00:29:42] Um, so. Looking at things like that. Um, things like tracking scripts. Tracking scripts can like be more, they can use up more data sometimes than like an entire, the actual webpage that you see. The stuff behind the scenes. And this comes into like the humane aspect as well. [00:30:00] The stuff behind the scenes that's like harvesting all of your data. [00:30:02] Um, they can actually be more code in there than there is in the actual, like, visible webpage that you're viewing. [00:30:09] Sarah: So you mean like Facebook pixel tracking, that kind of stuff. [00:30:13] Tom: Yeah. All that kind of stuff. All that kind of like ad personalizations, advert, you know, advertising scripts and mm-hmm. Things like that. [00:30:20] Um, wow. And the, and, and, and that's, I, I think that's kind of an interesting one to think about because it's, It's using energy in a number of places and not for your benefit. So you've got basically, like the advertising scripts have to be stored somewhere, like in a data center. Then they have to be sent over the internet, which uses energy to get to you. [00:30:43] Um, then they use energy on your device, which is your electricity that you paid for, um, to like spy on you or manipulate you by like, you know, manipulating the content. Um, and then they take the data, they. They've, they've [00:31:00] harvested about you and then use more energy to ship it back over the internet where it gets stored and analyzed in a data center. [00:31:06] Um, so, so like things like that where there's like, I mean things like that. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a relationship between the environmental and there's like human aspect. But I think if you're designing something, actually being really mindful about tracking scripts is really important. [00:31:22] Cuz sometimes a lot of websites aren't even necessarily doing it. For good reasons. It's just like, oh, I've got a website so I'll stick Google Analytics on it. Um, and Google's really benefiting from that by getting all of that data. But you might not even, some people don't even really look at that data. [00:31:37] So I think things like that are good to think about. Also, from the environmental point of view, like where you host your website, you mentioned moving your website to a hosting provider that has a commitment to powering their data centers with renewable energy. That's kind of a. I'm not gonna say it's an easy win because depends whether like [00:32:00] how easy you find it to actually migrate your website, but um, usually they really help you with that. [00:32:04] Yeah, they normally it will help you like at do the migration. So it can be, it can be a low hanging fruit to reduce the environmental impact. Um, and I think just from a content creation point of view, just sort of being mindful about, um, like creating. Easy user journeys for people so they can find what they're looking for easily not creating unnecessary content, um, just for the sake of like search engines, for example, but actually making sure that your content is really tailored to humans and, and, and you're not doing things like putting in images of like just, um, like stock photography of people pointing at a whiteboard because you feel like you need to fill a space on the page. [00:32:47] You know, just be really mindful about. Like justifying the existence of everything. Um, if you can justify why it's there, then, you know, great. Um, but if you can't, then, um, obviously if [00:33:00] in doubt, leave it out. Um, it's sort of a simple mantra to the identifying and eliminating waste. [00:33:08] Sarah: It's so interesting because basically also here you're saying, let's go back to simplicity and, and basics and. [00:33:15] You know, simple design rather than cluttered, obnoxious, you know, too much content design. [00:33:22] Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think that's e just sort of, again, going back to the human perspective, that can be much easier on the mind as well. Yeah. Um, it's [00:33:31] Sarah: relaxing. It's more relaxing, right. Than Yeah. Having much content [00:33:37] Tom: on it all the, all the time. [00:33:38] Exactly. I think, you know, there's a lot of problems with just sort of overstimulation, um, On the internet. So, so I think that there's a, again, another synergy between sort of designing for the environment and designing for humans there. [00:33:52] Sarah: Yeah. You, uh, just a minute ago, you, you kind of addressed ai, uh, [00:34:00] And, and I, um, there's another great article that you actually published with a conversation between you and chat c p t about, um, the impact of ai, uh, to the environment and, and social, uh, impact and all of that. [00:34:17] Um, yeah, tell us a little bit about that. Uh, in, in, just in general, how AI impacts all of what we just [00:34:26] Tom: discussed. Yeah, so I, it was, I thought it would be really interesting just to sort of a ask an AI about the potential risks of AI and see, to see what it came back with. Um, I thought maybe I'll learn something, maybe it would teach me something. [00:34:44] I don't know. Um, maybe it will be biased. Um, um, I was actually like sort of pleasantly surprised that its answers seemed quite thorough and quite. Quite honest, um, in identifying that there is [00:35:00] like potentially a huge energy cost to AI in terms of just how much computing, um, power it needs, um, both to train the models and run the models. [00:35:11] Um, I think it gave me a figure of to train G P D three required, I think 500. CPU years, which is effectively like running a cpu, running a, running a computer for 500 years to train one model. Um, so it was, it was quite honest in, in that it did also highlight that there's potential benefits, um, from an environmental point of view. [00:35:33] If you can use that AI then to help humanity solve. Environmental problems and make other things more efficient, which I think is absolutely true. Um, but it also highlighted that the flip side of that is that it's all about what we choose to do with it. Like you could choose to use AI to like, to, to extract more fossil fuels from, from the ground, which is what the fossil fuel companies are using it for. [00:35:57] Um, and in fact, there was a big conference, I [00:36:00] think run by Amazon. Um, Specifically about that, like inviting all the fossil fuel companies to, to see what, how they could, how they could like, fi, discover and extract more oil. Um, wow. So, so that, that's kind of interesting that it, it like chat, G B T itself highlighted that. [00:36:19] Um, but then it also, like I asked it about sort of social impacts and it did, it did sort of, Quite honestly, like, explain that like, yeah, there's potential risk to people's jobs, um, in terms of being replaced by ai. There's risks of bias. There's risks of, um, big temp big tech companies, um, having more and more power because essentially like whoever has control of the AI has more power over a society and the, and the potential to like manipulate public opinion and, and potentially even influence democracy, which is something that it did. [00:36:57] Bring up. So, um, [00:37:00] yeah, I think it was quite well rounded I felt, in terms of what it highlighted. And of course, it's not really a, it's not a person. And that's the thing that it's like really hard to like get your head around when you start doing something, like trying to have a conversation with it. It's like, well, hard to like [00:37:13] Sarah: it or dislike it, you know? [00:37:15] Yeah, [00:37:16] Tom: right. I've, I've set myself a rule that I'm like, when if I did, you know, like when I did that, To not say thank you cause it sounds really simple, but as soon as, but you ask a question and you get an answer back that sounds like a human wrote you a message back. Right. And it's really easy to slip into that thing of thinking there's a person on the other side when there's not. [00:37:37] Um, and I don't know if you've seen the film X Mcna. Um, I haven't. It, it's, it, I mean, I think it's, I only watched it earlier this year because it sort of felt like this is the time in history where, The science fiction is suddenly catching up. Yeah. Like, like real life is mirroring science fiction and [00:38:00] Yeah. [00:38:00] It's, it's a film about, and like an, an AI that's been developed and um, and humans building relationships with it and the, and the boundaries between what's human and what's not being blurred and how that. That's a slippery slope, basically. Um, I won't spoil it for you, but Okay. But I, yeah, it's a, i I, it's a, it's a fascinating and very well made film, um, on this topic. [00:38:30] Yeah, [00:38:31] Sarah: I'll look it up and I'll definitely link to, to that article, the interview with, um, chat G p t, um, as we're kind of. Coming to close here. I I'm, I'm just, I always feel like, oh, so it's such a heavy topic. Right? And, um, when we started recording, um, offline, I told you I tried just to focus on the positive things. [00:38:58] So let's, let's do that [00:39:00] here as well. How do you see the future of Humane Web and, and what can we do to, you know, kind of counter effect the big tech and. The big companies and, and even if it's just in our own little bubble, but at least we're creating that vision and who knows what will come out of it, but at least we're living in that vision already. [00:39:25] What can we do? And, and then Yeah. Uh, from there, how do you see it evolve? Yeah, [00:39:30] Tom: sure. I, I think the main thing we can do is first, first of all, like stop and think about like what we. What we need as humans and how the technology can serve us, rather than the standard model now, which is sort of like, how do, how do we serve the technology? [00:39:49] Um, and you, you know, you spoke about it earlier about how. We go down this route of like, now there's like an established model of like how the [00:40:00] internet works and how the business models on the internet work being like those big tech companies. And so there's just a natural inclination to mirror that and just copy it. [00:40:10] And I think the, the best thing we can do is actually just stop and think, look inside ourselves about like, what would it look like if it was really serving my needs and serving the needs of of others. And actually just have the confidence to try to do things differently and not just copy the, kind of the standard template of how things are done these days. [00:40:32] Um, and I think if more and more people do that and. And importantly, more and more people share that and tell the story of how they're thinking about it and why they're doing things differently. Um, I think that's really powerful cuz then it can create that sort of like ground up change. Um, both in the, the way that people are thinking about the internet as well as the way that people are interacting with it. [00:40:58] Sarah: Yeah, 100%. [00:41:00] And, and that's definitely what we're trying to do here, and I know you are as well, and, and. You might think, because what we're seeing is the big tech everywhere, right? Mm-hmm. But the more you kind of are in these circles, the more other little circles you discover and you're like, wow, there's actually people like us everywhere. [00:41:21] Yeah, exactly. So that always gives me hope. I'm like, well, two years ago I didn't know about Tom Greenwood, and now I know that you've been working on this for years and years, and so. You know, there's, there's millions of us and that, that gives me hope. So I, I, uh, I couldn't agree more with you to just kind of. [00:41:41] You said stop and, um, kind of step into the confidence of doing things differently. And I think yeah, that is key because it is scary to, you know, not do what everybody else is doing. Um, So, yeah, if, even if it's just, you know, for your website, [00:42:00] and that's where again, uh, I'm gonna go back to my website and, and check that I don't have any kind of tracking code in there because Yeah. [00:42:08] I, I don't need it. Right. So, um, definitely, uh, yeah, [00:42:13] Tom: to start exactly, start from where you are and, and, and ask yourself questions about like, what it is that you are doing. If you are creating things on the internet, um, and. And just see where it, see where it leads, see what other people are doing. Yeah. Um, I mean, even on the tracking script one, like there are alternatives. [00:42:32] Like there's one called Plausible, for example, um, which is like, it gives you some data about how, like how many people are using your website, what, like what countries they come from, what web browsers they use, what pages they visit. But it is completely anonymized. It's very, very lightweight, energy efficient. [00:42:51] Um, Script. So there are some like kind of, there are alternatives to some of these like big tech [00:43:00] solutions that are actually trying to balance the sort of the human and the environmental side as well as providing some useful functionality it for when people do need it. Um, yeah. So yeah, it's worth looking for those as well. [00:43:12] Thank [00:43:13] Sarah: you. I, I would really encourage listeners also to sign up to your newsletter, so please share with us where people can find you and your newsletter and all your other good work. [00:43:24] Tom: Yeah, sure. So the newsletter, I'm, I'm very excited. This, um, just past 6,000 subscribers yesterday. Um, it's, it's called Kii Green. [00:43:34] Um, if you Google Kii Green Newsletter, you, you should find it. Um, and, and it's basically a monthly newsletter about like, Greening the internet, um, but in a very holistic way. So, you know, we talk about things like humane web as well. Um, and we started it about three years ago thinking that nobody would be interested. [00:43:53] So to suddenly like now be like, oh wow, there's like 6,000 people subscribe to this. That for me is like a source of optimism. [00:44:00] Um, again, that that [00:44:01] Sarah: means that there's all these people everywhere, right? And saying, yeah, me too. I'm in. [00:44:06] Tom: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Exactly. The, the, like, I think sometimes we. We don't realize that there's a lot of people out there that are thinking like we are thinking, or, or maybe they're thinking differently from we're thinking, but they're like, they really care about making things better. [00:44:20] Um, and we just don't know that they're out, they're out there. Um, right. So when we have things that kind of bring these voices together, I think that's really powerful. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, so the Curiously Green Newsletter, um, I mean, you can find me on LinkedIn, that's Tom Greenwood who runs Whole Grain Digital. [00:44:36] There's lots of Tom Greenwoods, but I'm, I'm, I'm that one. Um, And I also have a, um, I also have a, a personal newsletter about sustainable business on CK called Oxymoron, um, which you can look up on ck Um, yeah, so I guess they're the. They're, they're the key places to find me. And you have a book, right? I do have a book, yeah. [00:44:59] Yeah. I always [00:45:00] forget to mention that. Yeah. There you go. So I always have a book, um, about sustainable web design called Sustainable Web Design. Um, you can, you can get it direct from publisher, uh, which is a book apart.com, or it's now available as of about two weeks ago in a lot of bookshops. Um, so you could find it on Amazon and other kind of online bookstores as well. [00:45:22] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I always ask one last question here to every, uh, guest, and that is, what are you grateful for today, this week, this season? [00:45:36] Tom: To be honest, I, I am grateful for the fact that like we live in a world where we can have these sorts of conversations. You know, like we have the freedom to think and, and share ideas and, you know, even if not everything is. [00:45:52] Perfect. And not everything's always trending in the direction we wanted to. Like the fact that we have the opportunity to try and like do [00:46:00] something about it and connect with, with other people. Trying to do so is, is, is a wonderful thing, um, which I'm very grateful for. [00:46:09] Sarah: Yeah. I agree and I'm grateful for the work you are doing and and your team, so [00:46:17] Tom: thank you. [00:46:17] Sarah: Let's keep it up. Yep. So much. Thanks so much for being here, Tom. I hope you feel motivated and I. Inspired to create a humane web together. I highly recommend you sign up to Tom's newsletter. You'll find that@wholegraindigital.com. You can also, as Tom suggested to connect with him on LinkedIn. You find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash 1 67, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Business Manifesto, [00:47:00] and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and Selling like we're human. [00:47:08] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

In today's episode, we have the honor of speaking with Jeffrey Shaw, an author and advocate for self-employed business owners. Jeffrey is not only the author of the "LINGO" and "The Self-Employed Life," but also the host of the popular podcast with over two-million downloads, and the founder of the Self-Employed Business Institute. In this episode, we delve into the concept of the Self-Employed Ecosystem, encompassing personal development, business strategies, and daily habits. We explore the Vision Paradox, Jeffrey's unique "Hug Marketing" approach, the power of trust in something bigger than oneself, and the essential daily habits that help us navigate the uncontrollable. Let's uncover the keys to success in the self-employed world. In this episode, we talk about: The Self-Employed Ecosystem which includes Personal Development, Business Strategies and Daily Habits The Vision Paradox: how to not self-sabotage and be disappointed when we don't achieve our goals Jeffrey's ‘Hug Marketing' approach Trusting in something bigger than you and other daily habits that help us manage the uncontrollable [00:00:00] Sarah: Hey, Jeffrey, so good to have you back on the podcast, even if it's a different version of the podcast. I'm so happy to [00:00:09] Jeffrey intro: have you here. I'm glad to be here with you as always. Thank you. [00:00:12] Sarah: Thanks. Um, I'm so excited for this conversation. Uh, you're coming out with a, you came out with a second book, um, so we're gonna mainly focus on that, but. [00:00:25] You're kind of like a, a crowd favorite here at Humane Marketing cuz I talk about you and my programs, um, and just this idea of the lingo and the language and ideal clients. It's a big topic for us. So, um, yeah, I wanna kind of give that credit as well and, and just, uh, remind everybody who hasn't read the lingo book, uh, yet. [00:00:48] That is also from Jeffrey Shaw. So, Anything you wanna just quickly say about lingo before we mm-hmm. Maybe also how it's still relevant and related of course, to your second book. [00:01:00] [00:01:00] Jeffrey intro: Yeah. It's been interesting, uh, particularly as an author and I, I know you can appreciate this too, that. Uh, so after my second book was out, it was out for quite a number of months and I was heavily promoting it and talking about it, and of course, so excited about the, the, the topic of the self-employed life and all the aspects of it. [00:01:16] Uh, my editor of Lingo, uh, at one point, she sent a message to me, said, uh, have you forgotten about your firstborn? Because I realized that I was so focused on talking about the new thing. You know, I, I had set aside talking about lingo, and that's one thing, I mean, lesson learned for those of us that are in business for ourselves is that, uh, we are visionaries and creators and often we can move on to the next thing and not necessarily integrate the previous. [00:01:41] Um, but since she said that and pointed out to me, I've been much more, uh, aware of the integration between the two because, you know, really, and in so many ways, I've actually gained respect from my book lingo. In the importance of working with your ideal clients, and maybe it's a little bit of a, you know, post [00:02:00] pandemic effect in that none of us wanna waste time anymore, and I, at, at the core of working with our ideal clients is the benefit of, well, I guess it's, you know, you get to choose that. [00:02:12] The benefit is to you as an individual for me. The number one reason I only want to work with my ideal clients is because of the satisfaction I receive watching people, uh, their businesses grow exponentially. Mm-hmm. And to me, the only way your business really grows exponentially is if you work only with your ideal clients and you're not wasting your time trying to. [00:02:34] Prove your value to people or trying to make people happy that you will never fully make happy. Um, and I just feel like there's somewhat of an emotional response to the, the time in which we've all been struggling through for the last few years to say, I don't wanna waste my life hours on anything other than what brings me joy and what impacts people. [00:02:54] And I think it's, there's more reason now than ever to read lingo and to really [00:03:00] focus on only attracting and working with your ideal clients. [00:03:03] Sarah: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Um, I, I just recently put out on, on the blog, um, a long, really long, um, blog post about, uh, humane Marketing words, and it reminded me of lingo and I'm like, went back to certain passages of it because, Of the importance of words. [00:03:23] Right. And in humane marketing, it's all about words. I, I tell people, look, you can use similar tactics, but if you use nicer and kinder words, then that makes all the difference. Mm-hmm. And so that also that, um, Part of lingo, yes, there's the ideal client, but then there's the importance of language, right? [00:03:45] The title and gives it all away. It's like the importance of the language your clients, uh, speak is, is so key. And, um, as, as we're gonna go into you, you have, um, your. Language as well that [00:04:00] you then use in, in the new book and where you talk about marketing. Um, so you came up with a new term for marketing, which I love. [00:04:07] So let's get, let's get into the, the new book, right? Yeah. Um, well [00:04:12] Jeffrey intro: at least stay with what you said for a moment. Cause that's so important for the Humane marketing society or community that you've built is, um, the energy of words. You know, if I could go back, as we always do, right, we always want to, you know, think about what we would add differently to the. [00:04:26] Books we've written, and if I could add to lingo, and perhaps at some point there will be a second version of it, a revised version of it, which we are, I mean, I kicking around the idea of, because really one of the things I'd like to stress, more importantly it's in the book, but I think I'd like to stress more, is the energy of the words, right? [00:04:43] It's one thing to use the right words to speak the lingo of your ideal customers, but I think also we need, and especially in the world of humane marketing, Really what you need to focus on is the energy of the words, because you're right, you can be saying the exact same thing, but the energy by which you're [00:05:00] communicating it with has everything to do with how it comes across. [00:05:03] And if I could say there's been one really huge, significant difference in business over my 40 year career is that people today and have for a number of years now make a decision based on how they energetically feel about a business more than ever before. Right. It used to be, or something I say in my keynote is that it's a bit of a wake up call that we no longer get hired for being the best at what we do. [00:05:30] We get hired because people like who we are. Right. And that is the biggest change because I've been in business, you know, over my 40 years. In the eighties and nineties you get hired cuz you were the best in your field. At that time. I was 100% a portrait photographer, affluent families. And I got hired because I was considered to be the best photographer for those families. [00:05:52] Not the best photographer amongst all photographers, but I was probably the best photographer for affluent families. I really understood them. I understood how to craft the [00:06:00] artwork for their homes. Um, I used to listen to my clients talk about other best qualified people they hired, like their interior designers, their landscape designers, and they would talk about how difficult they were to work with, but they were the, they were the name to have, right? [00:06:17] I. You won't get away with that today. Mm-hmm. Pe. PE today, people don't hire you because you're considered the best in your field. They also have to feel good about doing business with you. There's an energy that you're communicating in your humane marketing that makes people want to do business with you. [00:06:33] They will, to some degree. Excuse that you're new. And that you're, you're new in business, you're new in this skill, skillset, or that you may not be considered the best in your field, but they like you better than the other people in your field, and they will do business. That is the biggest change in business I've seen in my 40 years is that. [00:06:52] We're getting hired because of how people feel about us, and we see, we see this the opposite of it in big companies all the time. How many think about how many [00:07:00] brands people are walking away from because the c e O said something stupid, or you found out that the leadership team was not treating the employees well, or you found out about the political ambitions of a company and how quickly people that disagree with those feelings abandon the brand. [00:07:19] It happens so quickly. Mm-hmm. I, I love, and I know you would too, for your community of humane marketers, like, I love doing business in a world where people are making decisions, whether work with us based on how they feel about us. That, that to me is exciting. [00:07:33] Sarah: Yeah. And it, it really shows how the emotional intelligence of people and the consciousness has, you know, really increased over the last year. [00:07:42] Yeah. So not year, years. So, Totally agree with you. It's this emotional connection that it is almost like there should be a book just about that, right? It's like, how do you create an emotional connection? What I say is bring more of you, uh, to your [00:08:00] marketing, right? It's this humanness and, and yet, I was just in a networking event this morning and it feels like everybody is doing the same spiel. [00:08:08] You know? It's like you just come off, yeah, take off the mask. Just be you. You know how weird and awkward that might be. [00:08:17] Jeffrey intro: And you're, you're a podcast host and I'm sure you get pitched plenty. And I, there are these trends to the pitches that come in that all start off the exact same way. And I'm wondering, okay, who's the latest guru who led a course on how to pitch yourself as a podcast guest? [00:08:31] And everybody's following it verbatim. There's nothing human about that. I mean, literally, people have to realize that, like for people like you and I as podcasts, I get about 24 pitches a day. Yeah. More than half of them will start off exactly the same way. And, you know, I listened to episode so-and-so, or then the six months from now that that rhythm will, that style will change. [00:08:54] And I know there's somebody out there that everybody seems to be following the advice of. Mm-hmm. And they just, it just, [00:09:00] you don't stand out that way. Mm-hmm. It always comes back to the term. I use Sarah to describe how I. The, the internal feeling I experience when I know that I'm coming from my auth, authentic self. [00:09:13] And my truth is I refer to it as dropping in. Yeah. I, I just, I have found in myself and I encourage everyone to kind of dig for that place in themselves where they can, they drop into their truth. And stop doing things in business because everybody else is doing it that way. Stop doing things in business because somebody told you statistically that's what works. [00:09:35] Or this, you know, listen to it. I'm not saying ignore it, but use or have a help or have a filter of discernment so you can decide, does that work for you? Does it feel right to you? And then have a place in yourself that you can drop into to say, this is me. This is who, what I stand for. This is who I, who I want to represent in business. [00:09:58] And then market in [00:10:00] that way, speak to people that way. And I feel like the, the energy of the truth comes through so clearly that people want to do business with you. Yeah. [00:10:09] Sarah: And I, and I feel like that's it. We dropped right into the book. Right. Because that's what, what your book is all about. It's, it's, it's about this mix between, and in, in a way, my book is kind of similar. [00:10:22] It's a mix between personal development and, and business strategy. And you bring in the. The daily habits and I, I think one of the daily habits is trust. And, and that's what this dropping in is. And, and in a way, dropping in is also kind of tuning out the rest, you know? Yes. It's like dropping in and you're just like, no, I don't wanna hear anybody [00:10:42] Jeffrey intro: else. [00:10:43] And that's, that is true. It is really hard. It is really hard. And that is, again, I, I always say I teach as I teach my students in the Self-Employed Business Institute. I say all the time, I teach from being in the trenches. Right, because that's all I know. I've, I've been self-employed my entire life. It's the only world I've, I've never [00:11:00] had a traditional job. [00:11:01] I've never received a paycheck from anybody. Right. So I teach from in the trenches and I try to drop into the truth of that so that I can really help our students in the business institute. Um, and that, what you just said and described really, Is so true of being self-employed in that it is such a duality in that, like I said, don't, don't shut off what you're the possibilities of learning and what you see other people doing, but you do need this, what I refer to as a filter of discernment so you can filter out what's useless to you. [00:11:37] Keep in a reservoir, what could be useful to you, and then drop into yourself. So, which, like you said, you're kind of shutting off everything else, so you drop into yourself to decide what has value to you and what you wanna do with it, and what your truth is. I, I don't think it is possible, particularly in a world where we're inundated with so much information, um, and [00:12:00] nor would I recommend. [00:12:01] Shutting off the information that comes in. I think it's very, you know, you want to, you want to expose yourself to as much as you can, but you do need a filter of discernment to decide what has value to you and then drop into your truth and how you most want to communicate to people and what your authentic truth is. [00:12:18] Sarah: Yeah. The thing is, and I'm sure you've seen that as well, and it's your experience maybe as well, seeing others doing that is like, if we go into business, we just immediately wanna go into the doing and the marketing and the Instagram posts and all of that. Right? And so what you are saying, and I'm, I'm kind of saying as well, is like, well, the personal development part, which is. [00:12:44] Finding out what your truth is, finding out your values and your, you talk about personal power or, um, yeah. Similar words like that as well is just so important and yet most people just wanna skip ahead and go to the next thing. [00:12:59] Jeffrey intro: Yeah. [00:13:00] We're, I actually have a, I have a podcast on my own show, uh, that I'll be recording in a couple of hours and, um, and I, I, in the intro, which I was working on a, a bit ago, that. [00:13:12] Because I've really been thinking about this a lot. I use the term ceilings a lot. Mm-hmm. And I've realized that I've used the word ceilings to replace limited mindsets where most people are talking about limited mindsets. I've come to call them ceilings because I actually like, again, coming from that inde trenches approach, I like the realistic feeling of a ceiling, because especially if everybody else is gonna talk about them as limited mindsets, the more often we hear a term, the more often it starts becoming white noise. [00:13:38] Right. Um, I think that's what's happened with the topic of fear. You know, fear has become this. Fear and imposter syndrome are two that have now become such big buckets. Everything that everybody experiences gets thrown into those buckets. Oh, this is, you know, I have fear. It's like, are you sure you have fear? [00:13:57] Right. I'm working, I'm working on my next book, which will be out the [00:14:00] fall of 2024, and it's about self-doubt for high achievers. Mm-hmm. And one of the things I really challenge in this book is the notion that, People just write, oh, I have imposter syndrome. And I'm like, are you sure it's imposter syndrome or is it self-doubt? [00:14:14] There's a difference, you know, but it's amaz. Every time I bring up the topic of self-doubt, people compare it to imposter syndrome. I'm like, to me, there is a very distinguishable difference between them, which I talk about in the book. Don't wanna quite reveal too much about it yet, but, um, there's a different, but the problem is, is that these, these, these things we talk about become like rote language, fear, imposter syndrome. [00:14:37] And the more we talk about them, it becomes white noise. And I think that's kind of what's happened with limited mindsets, right? You know, people talk limited mindsets, it just toss around. And I'm like, well, let's be real about limited mindsets. There are ceilings and a ceiling is like something that's sitting on or close to the top of your head that you're not. [00:14:53] You know, you're, you have no space above you for, so the reason why both you and I have this see such [00:15:00] importance on this, the work of personal development is I refer to personal development as raising the ceiling the way, the only way that I know for anyone to be truly be successful and actionable and applying action and business strategies. [00:15:16] The only way I know that those things can be successful is if you create the space. Above your head through personal development for those things to work. So I'll give you a sp a specific idea. One of the ceilings I talk about all the time, uh, to my students is the deserving ceiling. Mm-hmm. I don't care how much hard work you put into growing your business, I. [00:15:39] And how much strategy you apply and how many seminars you you attend, and how many, you know, new and latest social media trends, you hop out. I don't care how many of anything you apply, if you don't raise the ceiling by which of which you think you deserve, you're not going to get more. Right. If you still have a deserving [00:16:00] ceiling on top of your head that you only deserve this much abundance in life, if you only deserve this much goodness, if you only deserve this much money, if you're hung up on that, that ceiling, I don't care how much work you put in, you've capped off by, by it being a ceiling, you've already capped off the results. [00:16:18] The only way you can make those strategies and the effort you apply work is you have to first do the personal development work to really know you deserve more, and then you've created this space and then there's a place for all that hard work to fit. And that is why, to me, personal development is just critically important, uh, as a step before the hard work. [00:16:41] Sarah: Yeah. Oh yeah. I think you really talked about a, a topic that is Yeah, like whenever I talk about the P of pricing, which really has to do with money and deserving and re receiving, right? That's like one of the most, uh, listened to episodes. So, uh, this [00:17:00] one here, this conversation is on, is, uh, under the P of Personal Power. [00:17:05] Which I feel like is very fitting as well, because basically, um, what you're saying is we need to step into our personal power and, and, and then Yeah. Be ready to receive. And, and, and that's what personal development is all about in my opinion as well. Right. And, and then really also accepting that. Or kind of like realizing just because we are stepping into that power, that does not gonna mean that we're gonna abuse our power, but that we are using it in a, in a nice and gentle and humane way. [00:17:41] Right? [00:17:42] Jeffrey intro: Yeah. I think that's, that's so important that you just brought that up. Cause I, yeah, in the book lingo actually, Uh, qualify right in the beginning that this is not about manipulation, right? Understanding someone's lingo is not about using that power for evil. It's not meant to be. Uh, but it's so powerful that I felt like I [00:18:00] needed to describe that because it's powerful. [00:18:02] Because if you really speak someone's lingo, it's like you're sharing a secret language and it's how you know to really develop, as I teach in the book, the system of speaking someone's lingo and getting someone, uh, to, you know, attracting your ideal clients. Um, to me, you know, whether it is to what degree we get to know our clients so that we can speak their lingo or, uh, you know, the business strategies that, again, it all comes back down to the energy, right? [00:18:32] Because if you do things with a clean energy, In a good intent, they will feel the energy of that. Mm-hmm. If you're coming from a place of manipulation, you have to believe, yes, some people could be fooled, but in the long run, that's not gonna work for you. But I, I agree with you that we really, so much of it comes down to the, the energy of our actions. [00:18:54] Uh, what's always something that's always surprised me, and people get this when I, when I describe it to them, Is [00:19:00] that if you are not confident in your ability to serve people, You actually have to be very subtle in how you are trying to sell your services because if you're not confident, you're not exuding enough energy of a con of confidence. [00:19:15] What's always been interesting to me with, particularly with my students in the Business Institute, because we work so much on. Their confidence, their strategies that I, and, and really we work a lot on their clarity. You know, getting people really clear on what they stand for, uh, internally, and then getting them clear on how to communicate that to the outer world with clear brand messaging and clear communication. [00:19:39] What happens is their clarity gives them confidence, and the confidence enables them to be a little more assertive. It's amazing when, if you are so. Energetically clear and confident that you can help somebody. It's amazing how direct you can be. Like you can, you can, and [00:20:00] I, I find myself often in a situation when I, I meet someone who I so wholeheartedly believe should join the Self-Employed Business Institute. [00:20:07] Cause I think that we're just perfect for them. We can really help them. I find that I can be pretty direct in saying, I really believe this is perfect for you. Like I, I really, I can, I can see with all my heart that this is exactly gonna create the change that you wanna create in six months and really step forward and they receive it so cleanly. [00:20:26] Mm-hmm. Where if you said those exact same words, coming from a less sincere place, it would come across as pushy and they would sense it and they would sense it. So it has everything to do with how. Clear you are on your intentions. If that, if, if, if your intention and and sincere belief in your ability to serve isn't clear, they will feel that. [00:20:48] Sarah: Yeah. It also means, you know, humane marketing is all about giving the power back to the people and respecting. The intelligence [00:21:00] of human beings. I think that's what this is really is. And that's what we've seen, um, over the last few years has been happened. Like. People have been treated as if they were stupid. [00:21:13] Quite honest, a lot of times. Um, you [00:21:16] Jeffrey intro: know, well, we were told as marketers many years ago to market to the age of a five year old. Yeah. Literally, that was the advice, what, 10, 20 years ago Nowadays, I, I, I, Sarah, you're one of the few people that actually I think really get that. People, consumers today are so sophisticated. [00:21:32] Yeah. Like we have to stop dumbing down. Exactly right. Do is it, is it a noisy world? Absolutely. But here's been this, this, here's been the ridiculous strategy, right? Yes. It's a noisy marketing world, so the way your typical, you know, more aggressive marketers will tell you as well, it's such a noisy world. [00:21:51] You need to dumb down your messages to the degree of a five-year-old so that you cut through the noise. And here's my philosophy, [00:22:00] right? And here's my fly, which I think philosophy, which I think you'll agree with is, is yeah, it is a noisy world. And people I refer to p, you know, I jokingly say consumers today are, and myself and included, but we're also, as business owners, we're consumers. [00:22:13] Consumers today are attention snobs. And we should be, because we have so many choices as to where to put our attention, that we've just become super selective as to where we put our attention. So don't dumb down your content. What you have to do is make your marketing compelling enough that it's attention worthy. [00:22:33] Netflix has no problem getting people's attention because they're creating content that is attention worthy. And I, I actually in, in the self-employed life, my book, I refer to it as the Netflix test. Imagine your marketing is so compelling. That two people are sitting side by side at the, so on a sofa watching a Netflix movie, and one of those two people has a laptop sitting on their lap. [00:22:58] And at the same time, they're watching the [00:23:00] Netflix movies. They're pro producing websites for your area of specialty, and they come across your marketing, your website, and it's so compelling. They turn the laptop to the person next to them and say, well, check this out. Isn't this cool? All right. I've done it and I'll bet many listeners have done just that same thing that's passing the Netflix test when what you're, when your marketing is so compelling, you have taken attention away from somebody's watching their Netflix to turn the laptop to the person next to them. [00:23:29] That's how you don't dumb down your content. In fact, I'd say it's the other way around. Yeah. Make it so in intellectually compelling that people are hooked. Right. And they wanna [00:23:38] Sarah: know. And of course, again, it depends on your ideal client, but I don't want to work with dumb clients, you know? And, and that sounds harsh, but it's true. [00:23:48] I call my people deep thinkers for a reason. Right. It, it's, I want to Yeah. Work with people who think deeply about things. And so that brings us back to [00:24:00] the. Ideal client conversations. So obviously if you're dumbing down your content and your marketing and hoping to attract deep thinkers like yourself, well then there's something that is not going to [00:24:12] Jeffrey intro: work. [00:24:12] Yeah. You also just said something that I really wanted to point out that was so be because it was so natural to you, you just said it without even realizing it, and you refer to your. Tho those that you serve as my people. Yeah. And there's, there's energy, there's energy that I do the same thing. And I try to encourage other people that if you're coming from a place of humane marketing or as I refer to it in my podcast and in my world as doing business with a soul, right? [00:24:35] Mm-hmm. We have very, we have very aligned goals. Uh, if you are amongst people that want to do humane marketing, Think about those that you serve as your people, not an audience. Right, right. An audience is sterile. Yeah. It's, it's, you don't, I love and I totally have embraced the idea of referring to, I even to, even to my speaking rep. [00:24:55] I will tell her, it's like, cuz in the speaking world, you so now to talk about audiences [00:25:00] and I don't, I tell my speaking rep. Um, are those my, when she proposes an idea an an event to me, I'm like, are those my people? Yeah, let's talk about whether they're my people, because I've told her I only wanna speak in front of my people. [00:25:11] Regardless of how much an organization is willing to pay me, I'm not cuz I've done it, I'm not willing to stand on a stage for the biggest amount of money and those aren't my people. I hate it. It's not satisfying and I'm not doing anything of a significance. It's not worth it. No, it's not. I only wanna be in front of my people. [00:25:28] I will speak for free if I have to in front of, not ideal, but on occasion I will. Because if it's a room of my people, they're gonna be joining as students in the self-employed business institute. And that's, I can make more money that way than I ever will as a speaking gig. So I just energetically, I think there's such a big difference at looking at the people you serve as your people as opposed to an audience. [00:25:52] Cuz the energy of an audience is us. Me and them where? Oh, up [00:25:58] Sarah: you one target audience. [00:26:00] You know, [00:26:00] Jeffrey intro: it's like, oh, we won't go there. This is my target audience. Right. That's why you referred in the intro about my, or as we were speaking earlier, you were speaking about, you know, my transference of, of how I look at marketing. [00:26:11] Right. I literally, Referred to it as, we need to stop saying target marketing and let's think about it. Hug marketing. Yeah. Hug marketing is the system I, let's talk about hug marketing. Whichever. Hug Marketing is the system I teach because I wanted so desperately to turn around the energy of, of marketing being referred to as a target marketing. [00:26:30] And you know what? Here's the thing. In its simplest forms, target marketing doesn't. Work because if people feel targeted, they back up. And if you're referring to them as a target market, you're only kidding yourself if you're thinking they don't feel targeted again because they're feeling the energy of it. [00:26:49] And if you're energetically thinking of those people that you're targeting as a target market, they will feel that way. Yeah. So that's why, that's why I came up with the whole concept of hug marketing, [00:27:00] because the people I work with similar to your own, your own people, is. I work with, you know, my, my people are people that want, that, want to do business. [00:27:10] They want clients, but they want to acquire clients in a way that feels good market. Typically, target marketing feels creepy to them. So target marketing from a visual perspective, if you can imagine this is that. It's a series of concentric circles. So instead of the typical marketing funnel, which visually also has a bad energy to it because a marketing funnel in its traditional form is wide at the top, openhearted welcoming at the top, and it gets more and more narrow to do what? [00:27:41] Squeeze people through a small hole at the bottom. Mm-hmm. And then don't you love the marketing words like tripwire, like. Could it to, could there be a worse [00:27:48] Sarah: energy? Oh, that's another one. I need to add that to my glossary. I mean, [00:27:51] Jeffrey intro: could there not be a worse word for the energy of marketing to refer to things as trip wires? [00:27:58] These things are astonishing to [00:28:00] me. It's like, who came up with these things? Yeah. Um, trip wire. That one just really kills me. So what I did is I, I instead. Referred to it as a series of concentric circles, so that we look at the people in the outermost circles, what I refer to as lurkers. So lurkers are the people, uh, that you, that are watching you from afar that you didn't even know they're there, or you don't know that they, they're names, right? [00:28:26] They're people that are watching you on social media. They're reading your content, they're reading your blog posts, they're listening to your podcast, right? They're lurkers, right? And it's. Lurkers are the most overlooked, important process of client acquisition. And you'll know mo more in a moment as we go through this, but it's, it's, I always say it's like, fix this first, the first thing I wanna see people fix is to build out a broader, uh, portfolio of lurkers. [00:28:54] People that are. Listening and watching what you're doing, and you just don't know it yet. [00:29:00] And they'll play out as being a very important part because the next step is, um, once they, then they become curious, right? So you have to make your content and everything you're doing compelling enough, they become curious. [00:29:12] So they go from just kind of watching from afar to leaning in. They become curious. Once they become curious, then they become engaged. At this point, they're commenting, they're corresponding, they're reaching out, right? There's a level of engagement going on, but they are still in control of how. Close. [00:29:31] They're getting to you at this point. The next step is they become connected. And this is why it's so important is connected. And this, this should never be taken for granted because at this point, somebody's handing over the baton, they're, maybe they're giving you their email address, they're opting into your, uh, lead magnets. [00:29:50] You're, uh, which lead magnets are one of the few energetic words I'm okay with. By the way, I call them signposts. Yeah, signposts. Yep. Yeah. Um, and I like lead [00:30:00] magnet as long as it's like you're a leader and you're leading them to what's gonna help 'em, right. It's like you're grabbing somebody by their hand. [00:30:05] Right. So I'm okay with lead magnet because to me, I look at it as like, you're grabbing somebody by the hand and, and, uh, they are willingly, you know, following along. But connected is such an important stage so that the next step, of course, is once you become connected, you build a solid relationship. The goal is they become a client. [00:30:21] But here's to circle back. Here's why those lurkers are so important. One of the biggest problems I find in businesses is they're trying to convert from too small of a number, and that's why they're not getting as many clients as they want. So if you have, if you've captured the eyes and ears of a really broad number of lurkers, Only a small percentage of them are going to become curious, and even a smaller percentage of those are going to become engaged. [00:30:47] And an even smaller percentage of those are going to connect. And even a smaller percent, much, much smaller percentage of those are gonna become clients. So if you think about it from reverse engineering, if you want to increase your volume of clients, You [00:31:00] may have to reverse engineer and start with the, the strategies that instead of increasing just your strategies as a client acquisition, you may need, may need to back up and increase your strategies for how are you gaining eyes and ears of people in the first place. [00:31:15] Mm-hmm. Um, which may feel like it's contradictory to ideal clients, cuz you're throwing a broad net. But it's, it's not because for, you have to start with the lurkers and then make them curious and they filter their way down. And your marketing, of course, and your messaging is, is filtering out your non-ideal clients so that you end up with, in the final stage of, of acquiring clients that they, they are your ideal clients. [00:31:39] We're not done at that self, [00:31:40] Sarah: we're selecting themselves. Right. You're not filtering them out. You have to, they're they're filtering [00:31:46] Jeffrey intro: themselves. Correct. And they have to be self. That's good. That's good. You know, I always re the, another way of looking at humane marketing is I often refer to the area, the age in which we're living in as the age of empowerment. [00:31:56] Right. The moment you try to take somebody's power of choice [00:32:00] away, they want nothing to do with you. Yeah. So marketing today is all about empowering people to choose you, not telling them to choose you. Exactly, but empowering them to choose you. And, but in the in the Hug marketing system that we teach in the Business Institute, the last step is the hug. [00:32:16] We have a very different goal now, right? Instead of the goal being to target people and shooting an arrow at them as a bullseye, our goal now is a hug. And by the hug. It's like, it's the depth of relationship. And if you have an online business, which so many of us do, or your marketing is online, uh, you know, and you may have had this experience as a podcast host that, um, the goal of hug marketing is. [00:32:38] If you have the opportunity to meet someone who probably started out as a lurker, you have built such a relationship with them that if you were to speak each other in person, you would naturally give each other a hug Exactly. With their, with their [00:32:49] Sarah: permission. And, and they want, they are gonna ask you, how can we work together? [00:32:54] Instead of you trying to, you know, do the whole spiel and presentation and all of that, and [00:33:00] they're like, I know all of that already. Let's just Yeah. How can we learn? Yeah. And [00:33:03] Jeffrey intro: in the, the world of humane marketing and hug marketing, right? It's, it's not even just. The, the, the hug worthy people that you interact with are not just clients. [00:33:12] Also, they're your advocates. They're your cheerleaders, right? They're people that love, love, love what you're doing. I have many strong advocates in my life that believe so wholeheartedly what we're doing in the Self-Employed Business Institute. They, in their own success and achievement, career achievement may be way beyond. [00:33:30] Needing us in the self-employed Business Institute, but they remember where they were when they were starting out. They remember where they were five years in business and how challenging it was and how they needed to kind of reinvent themselves and rebrand and rethink. So they, because they're way beyond that, they have compassion and empathy for people on that stage. [00:33:48] What we look at is the three to five year stage is the ideal stage for us to, to lend our support. They remember that stage, right? So they themselves may not become a client. But they're, [00:34:00] they're strong advocates for what we do because they've been there. Mm-hmm. And again, that's, those are your hug people. [00:34:08] Those are the people that you're just eternally grateful for their support, not just the business they do with you. [00:34:14] Sarah: And I, as I was reading that in the, in the book, I was like thinking, oh, it's so funny how I sign all my emails to my inner circle, people with hugs, you know? Yeah. Like hugs. That's awesome. [00:34:25] Sarah and I, and before I was like, well, is this really business? Is this accepted? And now I'm like, no, I wanna give hugs to my inner people. And then you came up with Hug Marketing. I'm like, yeah, there you go. Yeah. [00:34:39] Jeffrey intro: Yeah. It's a different goal like side to me. You, you, you do business in a much more humane way if your goal in your marketing is to achieve a hug than to look at people as a target to shoot at. [00:34:51] Yeah. Def [00:34:52] Sarah: definitely. And I'm so glad you brought up Tripwire. I, I wrote this, like I said, this hu humane marketing word, glossary. And I, I [00:35:00] was also kind of coming up like listing all these words like, To me, lead magnet is one of them because I see the magnet as kind of like this thing that sucks people in, you know, supposed to like suck them. [00:35:12] Um, and, and yeah, other, other ones like the funnel and all of that. So I'll, I'll definitely add Tripwire. I had forgotten about that. Excellent. As we, um, start to wrap up, there's one thing I want to, um, Mentioned because I, I remember from back in the days, I would listen to your podcasts all, all the time, and you would always bring up paradoxes that would be like, you even said, I'm gonna write a book once about paradox. [00:35:39] So maybe that's still in the, in the work. It's still in my mind. Yeah. And so you talk, in the book, you talk about the vision, uh, paradox and I wanted to, um, have you talk about that because. I think that's a topic that is so, well, it's close to my heart, but I think it's. Uh, so [00:36:00] often, uh, uh, um, kind of a place for disappointment for self-employed people. [00:36:05] Mm-hmm. And especially also because all the noise about the six figure and the seven figure mm-hmm. And the eight figure crap that we hear all the time. And so we're told to come up with this giant vision, right? Mm-hmm. And then, yeah, there's just paradox. So yeah, tell us [00:36:21] Jeffrey intro: more about that. Yeah, actually I think, you know, it's a vision is sort of the answer for what I refer, refer to as the goal paradox, right? [00:36:27] So I look at it as a goal paradox, um, because. And it has always puzzled me, and it's always been something I've been unwinding for and looking for a solution for myself and, and for those that I serve. Um, this goal Paradox is a tough one because as high achievers, as business owners, as people wanting to make an impact on the world, uh, of course we need goals, right? [00:36:47] You kind of, you, you, we know that we need to know where we're going and how big we want to go and where we're achieving and, and you know, the vision we have, uh, the problem is, Often that, you know, we're told to have big [00:37:00] goals. So how do we have big goals without setting ourselves up for disappointment? [00:37:04] Because I worry about the disappointment. I worry about the disappointment from not achieving the big goals that people set for themselves as becoming toxic. How many times can you not achieve your big goals? I mean, how many, how many cycles can you go through of disappointment before you start losing steam? [00:37:21] That is actually exactly why. In our marketing of the Business Institute, we focus on people in business. We, we kind of really hone it in from three to five years, but even I'll broaden it sometimes to one to five years. Um, the reason we choose that time period is because I worry about people running outta steam, right? [00:37:38] Because we're human. You know, the first, the first year in business, your naivete and your excitement and adrenaline will get you through anything. But somewhere around the third year, the reality of being, being self-employed sets in the challenges. How many times you've gone at bat and missed at something, how many launches you've tried to do and not [00:38:00] succeeded. [00:38:00] How many clients that you've tried to acquire that you didn't get, um, You know, and the goals that you set for yourself that you didn't achieve, and it's somewhere between the third and fifth year that the repetition of that is starting to wear down their energy to move forward. So to me, goals, goal setting is inherently a, a paradox because we have to set ourselves up for big goals, but how do we not set ourselves up for disappointment? [00:38:26] And the answer to that, I believe, is, there's a few different ways I, I speak about it. One of those ways. Is to set up goals without being attached to the outcome. Really, really hard to do, but understanding the difference between goal setting as the north star and it not being attached to how you feel about yourself. [00:38:48] So it's a one, one thing to do is to set goals without being attached to the outcome. Because we can't be, we're not in control of the outcome. We're not in, we're not in control of the circumstances because the guy who said, [00:39:00] it's kind of always as ironic to me that the pandemic happened in 2020 because so many organizations were using the 2020 thing as an, as a. [00:39:08] You know, a a, an anchor for, uh, clear vision, you know? Cause it's 2020 and I'm like, yeah, yeah. How did that theme work out? How did that theme work out for you? Right. Is it, you know, so we're not in control of those circumstances. So if you had big goals for Clear Vision in 2020, how'd that work out for you? [00:39:25] Right. It didn't, so, You have to not be attached to the outcome. So set your sights on the big goals without being attached to the outcome. Hard to do, but I think really necessary. And then in a practical sense, in the Business institute, we do a whole workshop on goal setting, uh, in addition to the regular curriculum. [00:39:42] And I teach it as a, uh, three tiers. So you have your, uh, your good goal, your, you know, your, your minimum goal, your likely goal, and your wow goal. And people call them different things. Um, but [00:40:00] if you tear them out in three tiers, like kind of your minimum, you know, this is what I need to get by and, you know, you know, you're confident you're gonna succeed. [00:40:07] That right in the middle is probably what you're going to achieve. But then you have your wow goal, which is what if everything in the universe worked perfectly, look what I could achieve, right? Right. So if you have the three tiers, you're more accepting, accepting of where you land and you feel safer. [00:40:25] You know, your minimum goal, so you feel safer, and when you feel safe, you're more likely to be able to reach further. So that's one of the practical strategies I do as well. [00:40:34] Sarah: Right. Yeah. To me, what, what you mentioned first is kind of like don't be attached to the outcome. Well, we're in a way coming full circle and, uh, closing back with the personal development because yeah. [00:40:48] How do you not attach to the outcome? Well, it is back to the trust. It is, um, to the, to your whole part three in, in, in your book about the daily [00:41:00] habits. Yeah. You know, you talk about even grounding and just finding something that's bigger than you. Um, and believing and trusting and, and saying, I am worthy even if, like, that's what I say, I am worthy. [00:41:13] Even if you never make a sale. Anymore. Right? Yeah. So, exactly. And that, that is that trust building on a daily [00:41:19] Jeffrey intro: basis. A hundred percent. And that's the point of daily habits because we, we as business owners live in a world that's rocking and rolling in different directions at all times. Right. And the, the what serves. [00:41:30] Us better so that we can serve others better is for us to maintain a consistent mindset. And a consistent mindset comes from having consistent habits and thoughts and keeping ourselves on track, uh, regardless of the chaos that may ensue us around, around us, but that we can always come back to center, stay ground, and keep moving forward. [00:41:52] That's how you have impact, uh, over the long haul. [00:41:55] Sarah: Yeah. And I love that it, it wasn't just, you know, daily habits. Um, not [00:42:00] just another to-do list, but more like yeah, the big things like, you know, how do you, how can you be this lighthouse in the storm? That's what we need, uh, in order to just. Keep going and, and yeah. [00:42:13] Not be attached to the outcome. Very. This has been amazing. Thank you so much. I love that you bring in the woo into the book and, and it's just like, yeah, it's a beautiful, um, a beautiful book that, that it really shows the reality of what it is like as a, as a self-employed person or entrepreneur. Yeah. I [00:42:34] Jeffrey intro: said everything I do, I try to do from in the trenches because it's the only world I know, so I may as well, um, help my people. [00:42:40] Who I'm in the trenches with to succeed and it's my pleasure to do so. Thank you. [00:42:44] Sarah: Thanks, Jeffrey. Do you share with our listeners where they can find you, your book, your podcast, all of that good stuff? [00:42:51] Jeffrey intro: Yeah, so, um, my main website is jeffrey shaw.com, uh, which you will find everything in my books, the Self-Employed Business Institute, et [00:43:00] cetera. [00:43:00] Um, but I also have a great assessment if you're a business owner, if you want to check out to see in the ecosystem of being self-employed, where, uh, you may wanna apply some more. Effort, uh, you can go to self-employed assessment.com. Uh, it's a custom algorithm. It's actually a really kind of an amazing tool to get people thinking about what part of their business they might need to apply a little more effort to, to, uh, have a healthy and thriving self-employed ecosystem. [00:43:25] So again, that's self-employed assessment.com. [00:43:29] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:43:36] Jeffrey intro: Uh, I just celebrated, uh, a birthday yesterday, so I am really grateful for some pretty, you know, recent and significant life changes I made to move from Miami to Jacksonville, uh, to, uh, work every day beside my daughter who has worked for me for a couple years. [00:43:53] But she moved down from Connecticut and I moved up from Miami and we met halfway, not, not quite half, but we [00:44:00] met in Jacksonville, Florida. And both have established homes and we both have our significant others in our lives. And so yesterday was the first day that I spent my birthday, uh, with one of my kids cuz I've lived away from them for so many years. [00:44:13] Um, so I'm very grateful for that [00:44:14] Sarah: experience. Yay. And happy belated birthday. Thank you. Wonderful. Thanks for being here, Jeffrey. [00:44:21] Jeffrey intro: Thanks for having me

I find that purpose-driven and heart-centered business owners often have an instinct that they want to run their business differently.  They sense that they don't like the way they see other people marketing their businesses, but aren't sure what to do about it. Today I speak with Sarah Santacroce, who shares how she's challenging the status quo and revolutionizing the way we think about marketing. Sarah discusses the power of questioning assumptions, unlearning, and breaking habits to create a more connective and humane way of doing business. Sarah also shares her three phases of transformation and the 7 P's of Humane Marketing, showing us how we can put heart back into our businesses and build stronger relationships with our clients. If you're looking for a new approach to marketing that resonates with your values and connects with your clients on a deeper level, this episode is for you. Over a decade of running a successful LinkedIn Consulting business inspired a yearning in Sarah to create a global movement that encourages people to bring more empathy and kindness to business & marketing. As a ‘Hippie turned Business Coach', Sarah has written two books, hosts the Humane Marketing podcast and works with heart-centered entrepreneurs to question their assumptions when it comes to marketing & give them permission to market their business their way, the gentle way! Sarah shares a fresh perspective and doesn't shy away from calling things out that no longer work for many of us when it comes to the current marketing model. Her clients sometimes refer to her as ‘the female Seth Godin'.   And be sure to subscribe to The Self-Employed Life in Apple Podcasts or follow us on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss an episode.   Everything you need can all be found at jeffreyshaw.com.   Sarah Santacroce, thank you so much for being here! Remember, you might be in business FOR yourself but you are not in business BY yourself. Be your best self. Be proud and keep changing the world. Guest Contact – SarahSantacroce.com Humane.Marketing Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human by Sarah Santacroce Sarah Santacroce on LinkedIn (in/sarahsantacroce) Sarah Santacroce on Twitter (@sarahsantacroce) Sarah Santacroce on YouTube (@sarahsantacroce9551) The Humane Marketing Podcast The One Page Marketing Plan Contact Jeffrey – SelfEmployedNewsletter.com Website Books Watch my TEDx LincolnSquare video and please share! Valuable complimentary resources to help you –   The Self-Employed Business Institute- You know you're really good at what you do. You're talented, you have a skill set. The problem is you're probably in a field where there is no business education. This is common amongst self-employed people! And, there's no business education out there for us! You also know that being self-employed is unique and you need better strategies, coaching, support, and accountability. The Self-Employed Business Institute, a five-month online education is exactly what you need. Check it out Take The Self-Employed Assessment! Ever feel like you're all over the place? Or frustrated it seems like you have everything you need for your business success but it's somehow not coming together? Take this short quiz to discover the biggest hidden gap that's keeping you from having a thriving Self-Employed Ecosystem. You'll find out what part of your business needs attention and you'll also get a few laser-focused insights to help you start closing that gap. Have Your Website Brand Message Reviewed! Is your website speaking the right LINGO of your ideal customers? Having reviewed hundreds of websites, I can tell you 98% of websites are not. Fill out the simple LINGO Review application and I'll take a look at your website. I'll email you a few suggestions to improve your brand message to attract more of your ideal customers. Fill out the application today and let's get your business speaking the right LINGO! Host Jeffrey Shaw is a Small Business Consultant, Brand Management Consultant, Business Coach for Entrepreneurs, Keynote Speaker, TEDx Speaker and author of LINGO and The Self Employed Life (May 2021). Supporting self-employed business owners with business and personal development strategies they need to create sustainable success.