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Join host Carol Pankow in this thought-provoking episode of Manager Minute as she sits down with VR fiscal powerhouses Katie Marchesano, Chris Merritt, Allison Flanagan, and Sarah Clardy. Together, they unpack the pressing fiscal issues shaping the vocational rehabilitation (VR) landscape, including: ·  Navigating fiscal forecasting challenges · Addressing technology gaps · Strengthening collaboration between program and fiscal teams The conversation highlights the vital role of policies, training, and institutional knowledge in sustaining VR programs while anticipating future shifts, such as technological advancements, fiscal constraints, and potential WIOA reauthorization. Don't miss this episode, packed with actionable insights and expert reflections to keep VR programs thriving!   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music} Katie: I'm really excited for that tool to be shared, and I think it's going to be a really helpful tool for the agencies.   Carol: This job takes constant attention to detail in what is happening. It is always going to be work.   Chris: More people are going to be reaching out asking for fiscal forecasting and understanding how to look at this program in the future.   Allison: One of the things that pops in my mind that might happen over the next three years is reauthorization of WIOA.   Sarah: I think we're going to see some new resources, hopefully in the technology world develop, that will assist our agencies so that their focus can remain on the customers where it belongs.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today are my colleagues Katie Marchesano, Chris Merritt, Allison Flanagan and Sarah Clardy. So this might be a little bit of calamity for our listeners, but we're going to do it. So how y'all doing today?   Sarah: Great   Chris: Great.   Allison: Good.   Katie: Wonderful.   Carol: Awesome to hear it. Well, we have had quite a journey on the QM for the past four years. The fiscal focus was a new aspect of the grant, and we are so grateful to then Commissioner Mark Schultz for realizing that TA in this area was an essential element to the work. And since we're in this final year of the grant, we wanted to have a chance to visit together, share our insights with the listeners into the whole fiscal picture across the VR program, and discuss our perceptions and perspectives. So buckle up, folks, and we're going to dig in. So I want to start with how you each found your way to VR. And I'm going to start with Chris to talk about your journey into VR.   Chris: Well thanks, Carol. Mine's a little bit different than most people. I did not start in VR. I have a very different background. All fiscal for the most part. But I came to work at a fiscal state unit and learned about VR there. Loved it, loved it, loved it. And then was kind of asked to be part of this Ta team and couldn't say no because it's just an incredible program and it's a little complicated. So being able to help the states understand it better is what brought me to this team.   Carol: Well, not you, and you're being modest now. Tell them about like a little bit more of your background because you have an interesting educational background and all of that.   Chris: Yeah, I do. So I'm an environmental engineer by trade. Worked in that field for a while. Learned that sampling sludge was not a cool thing to be doing. So went to work for a small business that was just starting on Department of Defense World. Loved all the fiscal part of that. Went back to school and got my MBA and have been doing fiscal stuff ever since. So yeah, it's a long road that brought me here, but I'm happy I took it.   Carol: Yeah, we're glad you're here. How about you, Miss Allison?   Allison: Well, it's kind of hard to believe that I have over 30 years in this VR journey, and it actually started out in the field as a VR technician, and I just fell in love with the mission and purpose of VR. So I quickly changed my direction to be a VR counselor, and then that evolved to other promotions and positions throughout the year, where I ended up being director of both Kentucky Blind Agency and then moved to Florida as the General Agency Director. And when the VR TKM opportunity came about, I was ready for a change, especially after being a director through the pandemic and through the implementation of WIOA. I was looking forward to just a new opportunity, new learning areas, so this has been a great jump for me. I've enjoyed it very much.   Carol: Why don't you tell them too about your other gig with NRLI a little bit. We'll make a plug there.   Allison: Yeah. So part of the VRTAC-QM is the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute through San Diego State University. I have the honor of continuing Fred McFarland's legacy, who began this program about 25 years ago. And it is a program that is building the future leaders in the vocational rehabilitation field. And it's been a joy to see these leaders be promoted throughout their careers. Being stepping up, having an interest at that national level, the issues that are facing VR. So it is definitely a part of my job with QM that I hold near and dear to my heart.   Carol: Yeah, it's good stuff, I love it NRLI of our favorite things to participate in when we get to do training. So Katie, over to you next.   Katie: Well, my journey with VR started when my brother was receiving VR services, and he actually is who inspired me to go and get my bachelor's degree in psychology and work in social services. That led me to Department of Workforce Services, where I spent 13 years in various roles and capacities, which ultimately led me back to VR.   Carol: Awesome sauce. And last but not least, Sarah Clardy.   Sarah: So I started out about 24 years ago out of college. I was working in banking full time and going to school full time, and had an opportunity to come on with a state and Missouri vocational rehabilitation, had an opening for an assistant director of accounting and procurement. They had some systems and processes that were a little out of whack and needed some help with reorganizing pretty much the whole accounting structure. So I came over at that time and started in with Missouri, and then spent 20 years there and got to spend half of that time in the field directly with our field staff and counselors and really take this program to heart, and then had an opportunity four years ago to join the VRTAC-QM. I had said for a long time we needed technical assistance in the fiscal realm for years and years. I was thrilled that Mark Schultz saw the vision and made it happen.   Carol: Good stuff. Well, now we're going to enter the danger zone because I have some questions for you all. Not exactly sure how this is going to go, but we are going to do our best. So y'all jump in when you want. So what has been your biggest realization or aha moment since you started with the QM. And Allison, I'm going to have you kick us off and then other folks can jump in.   Allison: Honestly, Carol, there's been a lot of those aha moments for me over the last, you know, almost three years with the Technical Assistance Center since my experience in VR started in the field and I was a counselor, kind of the program side is where my comfort level is or my knowledge and experience. So when I joined the fiscal team there, definitely there was a lot of those aha moments, mainly a lot of the things that I did not know or did not realize even as a director when I came over. So one of those aha's is the director. Even though I received these beautiful monthly budget reports for my fiscal staff, even though I had a leadership team that we reviewed budgets with, understanding the fiscal requirements in and out, the uniform grant guidance and all the regulations. And, EDGAR, all of that, I think, is critical for any director or their leadership team to have knowledge of. And that was definitely one of my aha moments. And one of those things I go back, wow, if I could go back and be a director, I would be a lot smarter after being on the technical assistance side. And like I said, there's been a lot of those aha moments. I could share tons of them, but a couple other ones that jump out is just that critical need for that program side of the House and the fiscal side of the House, to always be communicating and always making sure they're checking with each other. On whether it's a new implementation, whether it's expenses, contracts, doesn't matter. There needs to be that collaboration happening at that level. And then probably the technology challenges is another one of those constant aha moments in the year that we're in and how reliant we are on technology. I am still amazed that there is not technology out there that will do what VR needs it to do, right off the shelf.   Carol: Amen, sister. You said it all. No, but I'm sure there's people that want to say some more.   Chris: I found it interesting when I came over that not every single, not a single state has it right. I thought that there would be more that are fully knowledgeable and are running with it and doing all the great things they are doing, the great things. They just don't have 100% right.   Carol: You are making me laugh with this because I'm just going to say I have to jump in on that. Sarah and I right away, in the beginning, anytime we had met with RSA we learned something new, we're like, uh, I gotta call back to Minnesota, tell them, because we realized, like, hey, we thought we were sort of doing it right, but we all realized things. We went, uh, yeah, we had a little slight misstep on that.   Katie: I would agree with that. Like, we came from a state that was in an intensive agreement. And, you know, I was like, man, we really got it wrong. But then, you know, it's a huge learning curve and there's a lot of people that are putting in their best effort, and they're still just a few things that aren't quite right.   Chris: Absolutely.   Katie: Another realization that I had was we have this table of contents for a grant management manual that we send out to agencies. And when I received it in Wyoming, I was intimidated by all the things that needed to be included. But my aha moment was when you break that down into individual items and you really look at it, it's things that are already in place, the policies and procedures that you're already working on. It's just finding a way to get that on paper and put it into some sort of policy and procedure and internal control. So realizing that states have the capacity to do that, just figuring out how was an aha moment for me.   Sarah: You know, when I came in, I was thinking back to 2017 and RSA came out with guidance on, I'm going to say it, Period of Performance. And it dominated our whole agency for a good nine months, trying to understand the guidance, looking at systems. We had to do a whole overhaul with the way we looked at obligations, just we spent a massive amount of time and effort to right size our systems, internal controls and all of that because prior to performance sets the beat for all of financial within a VR program. So coming into the QM, I really assumed that more agencies knew of Period of Performance and had gone through at least similar steps, or at least had internal conversations. And what I found was completely the opposite. Somehow a lot of folks missed the memo and that work hadn't been done. And of course, we've been running Fred Flintstone style, trying to help agencies get up to snuff. So that's the piece. I think that's been the most interesting. I think for me.   Carol: I think along that same vein for me was really that realization states are more different than I thought because I figured we all had the same information. We all kind of operated sort of the same. You might have your own internal systems, but I remember, Sarah, you and I talking that first year just going like, oh my gosh, everybody is organized so completely differently. They approach their work so completely differently. There isn't just one size fits all. Like, hey, you should do it this way. And like, everybody can do that. Uh uh, it is like having an IPE for how the fiscal is managed. Individualized we need to give very individualized TA. So what do you guys view as the number one challenge facing our programs nationwide? And Sarah, I'm going to have you start us with that.   Sarah: Okay? I'm going to say it I think Allison said it earlier. We are lacking in the technology space. I think a couple of things we have, the pendulum has swung to the other direction and before it was spend, spend, spend, a lot of agencies made adjustments so that they were increasing their spending. The large carryover balances weren't so large. Now my concern is how are we looking at our finances to see if we can still sustain that. And in order to get accurate projections and for leadership teams to have the conversations about where they stand financially, we have to have technology systems in place that are reliable, are tracking period of performance, can provide those fiscal calculations in terms of where we stand on all of the different requirements, so that we have a constant pulse on where do we stand as an agency. And I liken it to being in private industry and a CEO knowing at all times how much does it cost to make the widget? How many widgets are we making and what amount of time? All of those kinds of things. And I feel like in that space right now, we have agencies that are trying to figure that out, and we have some that are in a very delicate position, and it can cause a lot of catastrophe and crisis if that's not solidified. So really, it goes back to having reliable technology that will take care of all of that. And that includes our CMS, our Case Management Systems space. A lot of our vendors are struggling in that Period of Performance area, and we're not there yet. We have a lot more work to do.   Carol: Well, it's like a $4 billion industry, you know, and I feel like we're still using an abacus or something in some cases for tracking the money. It is the most insane thing I have ever seen.   Allison: And, you know, related to that technology challenge, though, is knowing that, that challenge is there, knowing that the technology is not correct. I think what adds to the complexity of that is the fiscal staff or the just the staff within the VR agency. They lack the fiscal knowledge enough to know if their system is working correctly or not, or know how to go in and make the adaptations needed to assist them. And that's a challenge within itself.   Chris: And I will piggyback right on that, because the thing I think that we've struggled with is we have lost so much institutional knowledge that people don't stay in jobs like they used to. And so if these policies and procedures are not written down, you get new people coming in, they don't know what they don't know. And if the technology is not working right, they don't know that that's not something that they can handle. So it's a lack of that long time knowledge that used to be in this program.   Katie: Yeah, Chris, that is exactly where I was going as well, is the loss of staff and institutional knowledge is huge, and it really highlights the importance of getting policies and procedures in place and not waiting till that person has their foot out the door and is ready to head out to make sure that you're getting that in writing. You know, succession planning and really building up success in the team.   Carol: I think for me, one of the things I see, because I love that whole organizational structure and non-delegable responsibilities, I love that area. I think one of the biggest challenges facing the program is the whole shift in how things are organized between if you're in a designated state unit within a designated state agency, and that centralization we have seen of all the fiscal functions along with IT and HR and all of it, but I feel like VR has lost control. And so as these services are centralized, and not that they can't be, but that they get centralized to a point that the VR program has lost complete input control direction. I mean, you've got directors being told you can't spend anything over $5. It has to go through 40 layers. You can't hire anybody. Staff cannot travel to go see customers like all of that. If we can't fix this structure of how things are put into play in each of these states, I really see kind of the demise of the program. As we see things get buried, the program gets buried down within these big agencies. The lack of control ends up leading to problems with them and being able to carry out the mission. And it's really hard to get a handle on that. And I know Congress has given, you know, this leeway so that states can organize like they want. But boy, the way they're organized right now, it's pretty tough.   Allison: It's a double edged sword when you think about it, because you're probably like me Carol, as former directors, we wanted more money going into the consumer services. We wanted it going to support our customers. We wanted to find ways to reduce any kind of administrative type expenses so that that money can go there when the centralized functions were really being pushed at the state levels. In my mind at first, I will say this, at first I saw, yes, this is a benefit because we're going to have these shared services, we're going to be able to spend more of our funds on our customers. And I still somewhat agree with that approach because it is a cost savings. But what has to happen, though, is that balance, what you talked about, the balance where VR still has control over the decisions or they are included in those decisions and the restrictions that have been put in place has to be lifted. But I do see the benefits of those shared services as long as the structure gets set up right.   Carol: Right. And that's been few and far between.   Allison: That needs a national model.   Carol: It does. And that's been a problem. I mean, if there's anything anyone can work on, little congressional assistance in that or whatever, you know, getting some of that rewritten, how that looks.   Sarah: Well, and I came from an agency that was able to retain an entire unit of 13-ish folks when all of those consolidations were occurring because within our Department of Education, our commissioner understood the complexities of our award and knew that if all of those positions rolled up to a department level, they weren't going to be able to support the program and were able to coordinate with our state leadership. And it served the program very, very well. So I think we have a little bit to be desired still in that space to get agencies the support that they need 100%.   Carol: So what has been your favorite thing to work on or accomplishment in your role? And Katie, I'm going to kick that to you to start us off.   Katie: Well, I've really enjoyed my role here with the QM. There's a lot of things that I enjoy, but the task that I've enjoyed the most is really having the ability to dig into the new uniform grant guidance that went into effect October 1st of 2020. For one of the things that I did while doing that was I took the old uniform grant guidance and the new ones and did a side by side where all of the things that were taken out were redlined and all of the things that were added were highlighted, and I'm really excited for that tool to be shared with the agencies right now. That's with RSA to get the stamp of approval, but I've used that tool already to help update all of our things on the website and all the tools that we're sharing with everyone, and I think it's going to be a really helpful tool for the agencies.   Carol: I love that tool, Katie, so much because even when we were down doing to last week and some of the just the nuance pieces that came out, when you're reading it and you go, okay, that language did change. Like there is a slightly nuanced variance to this that I hadn't completely grasped until you see it in the red and the yellow, and it all highlighted up. I mean, it was pretty nice.   Katie: Yeah, they did a lot of plain language changes, which is really evident when you look at the side by side.   Chris: I'll jump in here and tell you what my favorite thing is. And it's when we were working with a state intensively and, you know, we've been working with them for a long time, and you get to know them really well and you understand their environment and how things work, and they come to you and say something really profound, like, I was watching this training the other day and they got this wrong, and they got this wrong and they got this wrong. It is like a proud parent moment. When you go, they understand what the program is supposed to be doing, and they understand when other people not necessarily are getting it wrong, but mostly they're able to recognize what's not absolutely correct. And it just makes you feel like, oh, we have come so far.   Carol: It's like fly, little bird, you're flying.   Chris: Yes.   Allison: That's probably one of my favorite parts too, Chris, is the state work that we've done and how you get to know these state people. There's so many amazing VR staff across the country, and their hearts are all in the right place, and they want to do good. That's what I've enjoyed is getting to know these people better, broadening my network as well because I learn from them. But just being that resource I do like, I'm one of those weird people that likes digging into the laws and regs and finding where is that gray, vague area that we can interpret a little better. So part of the TA work, you know, really digging into some of the laws and some regulatory guidance I've enjoyed as well.   Carol: I have a story I love to share. I was having a breakdown probably a year ago, Sarah's laughing at me, I had a breakdown. You know, you're providing TA to state you're so ingrained with them, especially when they have a corrective action plan, you feel like you're part of them. I always say we, you know, when we're talking because I feel like I'm part of their team and we've been working on a particular piece of it, and nothing that we sent in was anything RSA wanted. All I knew was that this was not what they wanted, but we couldn't exactly figure out what they wanted. And it was driving me crazy. And I'd called Sarah and I said, I think I have to quit being a TA provider because I suck at this. I'm not able to help them. I haven't been able to figure this out. I am done, and I went to bed that night. I actually was on site with another state and I woke up at two in the morning and I do my best thinking as I'm sleeping. It's so weird. I've done it my whole career. I wake up in the middle of the night and have an idea. I woke up at two in the morning. I'm like, oh, I know what they're talking about. And I got up and I typed, I typed for like three hours and then got up for the day and got ready for the other state. But exactly what was needed was that, I mean, when we ended up meeting with the state and then they met with RSA, and that was the thing. It was the thing that was needed to get accomplished. And I felt super proud that we could kind of like, figure it out. It took a while. I almost quit, but, we got there in the end.   Sarah: You know, being in the final year of the grant, everybody's asking the question, what comes next? And of course we don't know what comes next. But I think my favorite part is looking back and building the relationships. So kind of touching on what all of you all have said. Relationships are important to me. Building the trust we are learning alongside of them just like they are. I always say there's no top of the mountain that any of us are ever going to reach when we've arrived. It's a daily learning process, but the program financially is so complex and trying to take those federal requirements And each of the state's requirements, which we've acknowledged already are all different, and bring that together in the center. And there's never been a resource to help agencies get down in the weeds, look at their systems, look at their processes, and help them navigate through that. And so just having something to offer and having directors send an SOS text at 9:00 at night, or we've talked to directors who have been in tears or excited because something really great has happened, and they want to share the success. It's all of that. Just being able to provide that valuable resource and support them along the way has been very rewarding for me. I know, and you all, but especially I think for the States.   Carol: So if you had a crystal ball, what would you predict regarding the financial state of the VR program over the next three years? And Chris, you get to start us on that lovely prediction.   Chris: Okay. Well, since I don't have a crystal ball, I think Sarah touched on this a little bit earlier. So for several years, the message from RSA and from Congress has been to spend, spend, spend. And so there's been a lot of changes in all the agencies to be able to spend more, to spend quicker, to do everything quicker and faster. And I think the spending is catching up. And I think that it might go too far. Like Sarah mentioned, the pendulum is going the other way, and I don't think the fiscal forecasting is robust enough to be able to predict when it's going to get hard. And since most directors do not come from a fiscal background, most directors come with the VR heart that you know is what a counselor has, paying attention to that. Fiscal forecasting is going to be a critical, critical point. And I know that most states are not doing it right. So that's my prediction. More people are going to be reaching out asking for fiscal forecasting and understanding how to look at this program in the future.   Sarah: And I think to tack on to that, I think we're going to see new technology and new resources emerge that will assist our agencies. Again, like Carol said earlier, some days it feels like we have our big chief tablet out and we're still doing things old school. And I think the only direction to go is up. So I think we're going to see some new resources, hopefully in the technology world develop, that will assist our agencies so that their focus can remain on the customers where it belongs.   Allison: And I would have to say ditto to both of that, especially the fiscal forecasting and the pendulum swinging the other way. And a lot of states considering order selection or going into order selection. But one of the things that pops in my mind that might happen over the next three years is reauthorization of WIOA. I know the discussions are happening with Congress right now, and if that implementation happens, you know, what's it going to look like? Because ten years ago when WIOA was passed, it was a huge impact on VR. And it still is. I mean, we're still challenged with trying to get everything implemented, trying to spend the minimum of our 15% on Pre-ETS. There's just so many things that we're still working on through. So very interested to see where that's going to go.   Carol: And I definitely think like nothing ever stays the same. So we always think like we're going to get to the place and it's just going to be even flow, like it's all going to be cool. We don't really have to pay a lot of attention, and I don't think that's ever going to be the state of the VR program. Like it's going to constantly need people paying attention. Whether the pendulum is one way and we have loads of money or it's the other way and we have no money now, like we have to somehow try to like even this out with the fiscal forecasting and all the things you're doing. But if you think you're going to get to the place where like, oh, I've reached it, Nirvana, it's all great. That's never going to be like this job takes constant attention to detail and what is happening. And so it is always going to be work. It's going to take a lot of effort from a lot of people. And as all the new people keep coming and going, figuring that out for the team so that you can sustain the practices and things that you have that help you to understand what's going on.   Katie: Yeah, I would just agree with everything that everyone already said. One of the big pushes that was brought up at CSAVR, is technology, and I think it is going to be interesting to see what kind of technology is introduced in the next three years that's going to help assist our programs.   Carol: So what is your best piece of advice for our listeners? And I'll let anybody open that one up.   Allison: I'm going to say you need to have a deep bench of leaders who are adverse in the financial requirements, maybe incorporating fiscal training for all staff on an annual basis, whether that's just refreshers or making sure new folks being hired understand all the requirements. But fiscal needs to be part of your ongoing training with staff. It's just critical.   Carol: I'd say, for directors coming in, I know the tendency is to want to be like, I have to know everything. I'm the director, I need to know all things. And even when you don't know the things, you pretend, you know the things. Don't pretend you know the things you don't know. Like you need to be humble and figure it out and learn and be willing to learn. For a lot of folks that are growing up in the VR system, having that sort of physical part of your brain, it may not be completely there. You're like, I went into VR because I didn't want to do math, and now you're in charge of, you know, $300 million in a program. And so you've got to just continue to learn and chip away and figure out how you can gain that really strong understanding, because you cannot just hand that off to some other group and think someone's managing that for you, because the buck really does stop with you in the end. As far as the responsibility over the control and allocation of the VR funds. So please keep learning, as Allison said, and be open and be humble when you don't know things and ask.   Sarah: There's a song by the Beatles called With a Little Help from My Friends. Everybody needs a Little help from time to time. And I know over the years we've worked with most of the agencies, but there are some that we haven't, and I've always assumed they're good. They don't need us. They're fine. It's not always necessarily the case. So acknowledging if I pick up a phone and call a peer or a fellow director, or hopefully the TAC continued to exist beyond this grant cycle. Reaching out and asking for help is okay, and it's encouraged.   Katie: Yeah, mine will be through the lens of policy and procedure. That's where I keep hitting. That's my passion on this QM team. We have a ton of resources available, and if you're struggling, you're looking at that table of contents saying, I can't do this. Reach out, give us a call. We can help you with prompting questions just to get the thought process going. And you can do it. It's going to be okay.   Chris: Ok, my piece of advice is to make connections. And I think everybody has kind of said that in their own way. But make those connections so that you have people you can reach out to and ask questions of whether it's us at the TA center, other states, other fiscal people. You need to be able to ask, how do you do this? What do you think of this idea that I have? How would you handle this? I mean, being able to have that connection and that type of conversation is critical 100%.   Carol: Well, I sure appreciate you all. And while we're still around, all our listeners can still connect with us. And we do have a QM fiscal email address. I will spell out for you. It is QM f I s c a l at v r t a c-qm.org. So qmfiscal@vrtac-qm.org. So please do reach out. We still are around for a little while and we can be your phone a friend. So thanks for joining me today guys I really appreciate it.   Chris: Thank you Carol. This was great.   Allison: Thanks for having Us.   Sarah: Thank you.   Katie: Thanks.   {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Many of our property management business owner clients are focused on hiring or restructuring their teams right now. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the most important parts of the hiring process and offer a little bit of “tough love.” You'll Learn [04:39] 1. Finding the right person for the role [11:04] 2. The importance of training your new hire [24:41] 3. Implementing accountability for your team [30:20] Review: what does the initial training period look like? Tweetables “We need to be clear on what results we're expecting.” “Any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes.” “You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.” “If you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.  [00:00:09] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently than you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners, and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:11] Sarah: All right. [00:01:11] Let's do it. Before we do anything, we have an announcement for those of you that have not yet heard. Our foster dog Hans has been officially adopted. So we didn't do a podcast since he was adopted. So this is our first podcast that we don't have Hans kind of hanging out in the background. And I miss his little face, but he has an amazing family. [00:01:32] Jason: I miss Hans. I don't- [00:01:35] Sarah: love him so much.  [00:01:37] Jason: I don't miss him chewing my stuff in my office, but I do miss his little face as well. All right. Yes. Yeah, so he's adopted All right So the topic today and if you want to check that out, you can go to doorgrow.Com right at the top. There's dogs click on that see all our stories. Maynard got adopted. [00:01:55] Sarah: Maynard is adopted. Yeah, he now lives in California.  [00:01:59] Jason: This dog was like on death's door multiple times. Well, many times. Now he's living it up with a wealthy dude.  [00:02:06] Sarah: Who just fell in love with him.  [00:02:07] Jason: Guy in California.  [00:02:08] Sarah: Maynard just captured his heart, loved him so much and wanted to provide him an amazing life, so. [00:02:15] Jason: He's got a new name.  [00:02:16] Sarah: He's Bodhi.  [00:02:17] Jason: Bodhi.  [00:02:18] Sarah: Bodhi. So he's now driving around in a convertible in California. That's one of the pictures they put on there. Oh!  [00:02:25] Jason: All right. So  [00:02:25] Sarah: Maynard has a great life now, too.  [00:02:27] Jason: So you can check that out at doorgrow.com/dogs. All right. So our topic today that we're going to be chatting about you said that it came up a few times in You know this week with some of our clients dealing with some new team members We've got we're doing helping a lot of people with hiring right now. [00:02:45] Sarah: Oh my goodness so many. I built so many DoorGrow Hiring accounts in the last week.  [00:02:49] Jason: Yeah, so we're setting up this hiring mechanism and machine and system so that people can have some consistently good hires. But that brings us to kind of the next challenge. So what have you been hearing?  [00:03:00] Sarah: Okay, so one client asked me, he's about to hire. [00:03:05] He's going through the hiring process. So he doesn't have anybody lined up yet, but he's It's about to start this whole process. And he had asked me, "Hey, what about expectations for when they start when they come on?" And specifically this is a BDM. The second instance of this happening this week is a client who has already hired and his BDM is now about 60 days in. [00:03:31] And he sent me a message yesterday and he said, "Hey, listen, I really need to talk with you before the end of the month. I need to make a decision on my team." So I said, okay, let's. Let's figure out what's going on? And he said "yeah, I'm kind of pissed because my BDM is like 60 days in, and last month he didn't do anything at all. And then this month he started like he hasn't closed anything yet," and by he didn't do anything at all, what he means is he didn't close anything.  [00:04:00] Jason: Okay. Not that he wasn't working. No deals yet.  [00:04:01] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Not that he wasn't working. He was working. And this month now is his 60 day mark and he hasn't closed anything, but he's, you know, making calls and he's starting to, you know, get some things kind of ready and warmed up in the pipeline. [00:04:16] He, he said, "man, should I just let him go? Like, is he just not the right person? I feel like it's 60 days, like, I should see some results at this point."  [00:04:26] Jason: Okay.  [00:04:26] Sarah: So I'd like to, I'd really like to talk about that. And this is going to be, whatever episode this is "Sarah's Tough Love episode." So here it is. [00:04:35] Jason: Got it. Okay, I mean, let's get the basic stuff out of the way, right? First, we need to know that we have the right person. So, we need to know what those expectations are. So, that's where we define that. Usually, we call them R docs, but in this ultimate job description. So, we need to be clear on what we're looking for. [00:04:51] We need to be clear on what results we're expecting. We need to be clear on, you know, what outcomes we're hoping for and they need to be clear on this, right? Like if we're bringing somebody in, they need that clarity. So if there's anyone listening and there's any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes. [00:05:09] And those aren't good, right? And so there needs to be at least, and you need to be on the same page. Literally, the way we do that is with a page called an RDoc. And so you make sure you're on the same page. And all those young Gen Z people, notice how I used the word literally, correctly like it's an actual page. [00:05:28] Sarah: I was just thinking that.  [00:05:29] Jason: Stop saying the word literally. It drives me fucking nuts. So, all right.  [00:05:33] Sarah: Literally.  [00:05:34] Jason: I literally, like if, yeah, nobody's confused about it being figurative, then don't, you don't need to say the word.  [00:05:41] Sarah: I literally died yesterday when I read that text.  [00:05:43] Jason: No, you would be dead. [00:05:45] You would actually be dead. All right. So, Now the next piece is we need to make sure we've got a person that fits that job description, right? They actually are the right personality. Well, let's talk about the three fits real quick. They have to match all three or they're not going to be a good BDM. [00:06:01] Sarah: Or it's never going to work out. And it doesn't matter if it's a BDM, an operator, a property manager, an assistant, a maintenance coordinator. It doesn't, name the role, doesn't matter.  [00:06:10] Jason: So, first, they have to be the right personality for the job or they'll never be great at it. They'll never be motivated to do it. [00:06:18] You bring in somebody to be a BDM, for example, and they're not the right personality to go out and want to talk to people and connect with people and network and that's not fun for them, they're always going to resist it. They're going to avoid it. They're going to do a bunch of time wasting stupid activities They're going to train everything else other than what really should be done, which is to go connect with people and have conversations. So they're going to be like "well I'm trying some marketing thing and i'm trying this thing and like and-"  [00:06:47] Sarah: "I sent 5,000 emails I don't know why none of them came back." [00:06:51] Jason: "We did direct mail to, like, 7,000 owners." [00:06:56] Sarah: I've heard that and it's because this is a true example. "I sent 5,000 emails." [00:07:00] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Sarah: So essentially you did nothing. That's great. Right. Good to know.  [00:07:05] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:05] Sarah: Thank you.  [00:07:06] Jason: Lots of emails, right? So. So,  [00:07:09] Sarah: you know how many junk emails we get in a day? What happens when you get junk email? [00:07:13] Do you open it? Do you read it? Do you respond to it? No. That's what you just did to somebody else.  [00:07:19] Jason: Yeah. It lacks depth. All right. So we can get into tactics later, but they need to match the personality for the role. Which means they would love succeeding at this. They would love doing it. They would enjoy it. [00:07:32] They get some fulfillment out of it. And so that's personality fit. They need to be the right the right culture fit, which means they need to actually believe in your business and in you and in the product. They have to believe in this. You cannot sell effectively if you lack belief. And that goes for everybody on the team. [00:07:53] Like, if your operator isn't a believer in you or the business, they're not going to want or care to make sure that it runs well for you. If your executive assistant isn't, you know, a believer in you or shares your values, they're never going to do things in a way that makes you feel safe or that you trust them. [00:08:09] Cultural fit means they do it the way that you would want it done, that they share your values. The big clue we talked about this at our last jumpstart event where we had clients and somebody had a team member. And I just asked, I said, well, do you feel better when they're around? [00:08:25] Do you feel calmer when they're around? And they were like, no, I'm like, yeah, then they got to go.  [00:08:30] Sarah: He said, oh, well, a lot of our communication we do over the phone because that's better.  [00:08:36] Jason: Because there's such a high degree of conflict.  [00:08:37] Sarah: Jason says, better than what? Awful?  [00:08:40] Jason: Yeah, and then he laughed. [00:08:41] Everybody laughed in the group and he was like, well, yeah.  [00:08:44] Sarah: Well, I can't talk to this person in person. I can't be around them. Because when we're around each other, there's too much conflict. It's just too, it gets, yeah, it gets too feisty. Well, that's not good.  [00:08:55] Jason: Yeah, that means that person's not a good fit for that person for that particular client. [00:09:00] Sarah: And let's be clear. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with this particular person. No, it doesn't make them a bad person It doesn't mean, you know, all the they'll never succeed No, it just means that they are better suited in a different environment That's all. It means not everybody like when you're dating, you don't want to date everybody. You want to date people that you like generally and there are certain people that you like and there are certain people that you just don't mesh well. The businesses work the same way.  [00:09:31] Jason: Yeah. They've got to match your values. Because regardless you get somebody that's amazing BDM, for example, or an amazing operator for your business, they don't share your values, you'll never trust them. Like you just can't. And then the third fit is skill fit. So they have to have the skill or the ability or the intellectual capacity to learn and develop this skill quickly. And so if they don't, then you'll invest a bunch of energy into trying to train them and they're just too stupid to get it. [00:10:01] Or they just can't figure it out or maybe you hire somebody and they've got bad habits or they can't adapt. So they need to have that skill fit. They got to be all three or they're not going to be a good fit. So let's assume if we've helped them with DoorGrow Hiring, we focus on these three fits. [00:10:18] We have a whole hiring mechanism. Make sure these generally go well.  [00:10:22] Sarah: Yeah. So I can tell you, I don't think that's any of those are the problem.  [00:10:26] Jason: This person. Yeah. So in these situations, the person is the right fit. Yeah, usually that's the problem is they're not even getting the right person. [00:10:33] Most of y'all doing hiring, you're playing Russian roulette hiring and you don't have good fits.  [00:10:38] Sarah: Or it's, oh, this person had the experience and they came from such and such a Yeah, we hear that all the time.  [00:10:43] Jason: Yeah. Well, they're so experienced, and you feel uncomfortable around them and you don't trust them. [00:10:50] Yeah. So let's assume that, you know, with our clients, we've helped them find people that match the three fits. So now we're past that hurdle, that's very typical for most people, well, now, if it's not them, then who is it?  [00:11:04] Sarah: Okay. So here's where the tough love comes is. This is always my question. [00:11:08] And I'm very, very particular about what happens when you hire someone. You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet. I know it feels like you've gotten through it and now things are better and you should just be able to rely on that person. You're not there yet. [00:11:33] You will be. But you're just not, you're getting closer. You're just not fully there yet. And this is what happens a lot of times and they go, "Oh, okay, so I know I need to train this person and then I'll probably train them for like a week or two and then they'll just be good." [00:11:48] Absolutely not. So especially with a new person and it doesn't matter. Here's the other thing that I hear all the time, especially when somebody has the experience. Oh, well, you know, they have a sales background. They know how to sell. Great. They don't know how to sell for you. They don't know how to sell what you've got. [00:12:05] They don't know how to sell your values and your mission. They don't know how to sell that yet. They don't quite know. So you can take any salesperson in the universe and plug them into your business. Do they have the skill? Yes. Do they have the experience? Of course, but they still have to be trained. So having the experience does not mean "Oh, I don't have to train them," or, "oh, I don't have to train them as much." [00:12:32] You still have to train them a lot. There is a lot of training. And I hate to break it to you, but your life when you hire gets worse. So your life is bad, you know you need to hire, then you hire somebody, your life is now worse for a short period of time. The reason being is everything that you were doing, you still have to do it, and in addition, you now have to train somebody. So nothing has changed except that you just added another responsibility for yourself for the next 30 to 90 days. And there is no way around that with hiring. So if you hire and you fail the train, it is probably not going to work out. They will not get the results. [00:13:16] They will be frustrated. You will be frustrated. And at some point, you will get back into the cycle of, "Oh, well, now I guess I have to hire again." And then you live in hell forever. And it's not a good place to be.  [00:13:31] Jason: Yeah, so unless you hire somebody that is an amazing 'who,' right? There's a book called Who Not How it's a great book. [00:13:40] Unless you hire an amazing 'who,' like you bring in somebody, they're a sales trainer and an expert closer, and they've had tons of success and they can teach other people's sales, then I think, in any role, you have to assume you need an assumption that they're going to do it wrong. You have to start with that foundational assumption that they're going to do everything wrong. [00:14:01] If I hired an operator cold, they're doing it wrong, that I need them to install my operational system. If they are coming in as a salesperson in the business, I know they've been trained poorly because most sales training out there doesn't work anymore. There's a new model and a new way of selling and all the old stuff. [00:14:20] All the salesy guys that are sales trainers and sales coaches largely out there that push. Doesn't work anymore. It's outdated. And we don't push that stuff at DoorGrow. We've had to shift how we sell and we teach clients differently, even in the last year. And so my assumption is that they're going to do it wrong, but. [00:14:40] What I do assume is if they've done it well before, they have the ability to learn it. They have the ability to be a good operator. They have the ability to be a good BDM. But there needs to, you can't assume because they have done it before, that you're just going to rely on them to do it.  [00:14:56] Sarah: It's not plug and play. [00:14:58] "I hired them now they're just going to go do it and they're going to sell a bunch of stuff for me." No.  [00:15:02] Jason: Right. You're always going to be disappointed with most everybody if you come in with this assumption and they're going to feel unsupported and untrained and frustrated.  [00:15:13] Sarah: And they will inevitably either quit or get fired.  [00:15:16] Jason: Yeah, they'll go find a better situation.  [00:15:18] Sarah: No matter what, it will not work out. So here's a good moment to talk about Vendoroo.  [00:15:25] Jason: We'll talk in just a minute. We're going to talk about the onboarding and then some of the next steps that are really important. But quick word from our sponsor. If you're tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination, meet Vendoroo, your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish. Triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection, and coordination built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations, where every dollar is accounted for, and every task is handled with unmatched reliability Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at vendoroo.ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. Okay. So check them out.  [00:16:10] Sarah: Speaking of doing things right, let's talk about what happens after you hire somebody.  [00:16:15] Jason: So the next step after you hire it, it has to be onboarding. There needs to be a good transition of bringing somebody out from the wild, this untrained wild creature, getting them to be something that is going to work inside of your business and fit you and fit what you want. [00:16:33] It's onboarding.  [00:16:34] Sarah: And if you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction because I'm sure that you can think back to a previous job that you've had back when we all had job jobs, right? Have you ever just been hired and then kind of just, it's almost like train yourself or figure it out or, well, "I'm going to train you a little bit and then the rest is up to you. Well, what do you mean? I trained you for a whole day. Now I'm done." [00:17:06] "Oh, okay. So that's it. That's all the support I'm going to get. All right."  [00:17:10] have you ever been hired and then you don't even truly know what you're supposed to do? I don't know. I'm supposed to sell stuff.  [00:17:16] Jason: So here's the challenge. Here's the challenge with this with entrepreneurs, I've been thrown into job situations where there was terrible onboarding, terrible training, but I'm an entrepreneur personality type. [00:17:27] I then innovated, figured it out. And in some situations where at a job I then quickly was put into leadership and sort of managing others. But I had initiative. I had drive, like I had adaptability and I find entrepreneurs are incredibly adaptable and they make the mistake of assuming that everybody else is like them and they're not, they're like, "well, I would just figure it out and I would just ask enough questions. And if I didn't know something, I would just like, and so you can't assume that everybody is like you, if they were like you, they wouldn't work for you. How many of you would go work for somebody now? Like, you're unemployable. Like, let's be real. You would suck as an employee, probably, right? I'm unemployable at this point. [00:18:10] I'm not going to like sit around and let somebody just tell me what to do all the time and whatever. Right. But they're not the same as you. And if they were, then they might just, you know, start a business and leave your business. Right. So they're willing, if they're willing to work for you, you need to assume that they are not the same as you and that they need to be guided. They need support. Now that doesn't mean they can't learn or they're not adaptable. That's the skill fit Don't make the assumption that they'll just wing it and figure it all out unless they're just incredibly driven and incredibly patient And they're really a strong believer in you. [00:18:45] Some of them may do that, but you don't want to lose a good person simply because they feel like you don't care or you're not invested.  [00:18:52] Sarah: So this is There's so much time that goes into hiring and this is why I say don't waste the time that you've spent trying to find the right person and screening applications and interviewing and you put a whole bunch of time and probably effort into this and now you found the person, don't waste that opportunity. [00:19:18] So you need to onboard them properly. And what does that mean? We need to make sure that they have access to all of the systems that they're going to need. And that they know all of the systems that they're going to need. So, oh, what are the tools that I use? And then, do I know how to access it? And, do I know how to use it? [00:19:36] Right? Don't just assume that they'll figure out, Oh, well, this is how I use this phone system. Train them on it. Just show them that. So, there's got to be training for those sorts of things. If they're in sales, then, well, How do I sell? How do I reach people? What am I doing? Am I just doing the fit call, figuring that out? [00:20:00] Am I doing the full pitch? Am I closing? Am I setting them up for you and then you're going to close? What exactly am I doing? So train them on every single thing that they need to know. And I know this sounds so silly, but most people do not do this. So, what do I say? What do I do? Do I have a script? Do I just make it up? [00:20:22] Where do I find people? Am I in the office? Am I driving around? Am I, like, meeting people at events? What am I supposed to be doing all day? Because I'm brand new and I know nothing. So I'm completely reliant upon you to tell me what to do. So if they don't know, don't assume that they're just going to go and figure it out for you. [00:20:44] You have to show them and they have to shadow you. So for the first 90 days, this is all training. So when you hire any person, now some of them will pick it up a little bit quicker and some of them will take the full 90 days and either way it's all right. But just in your head, tell yourself it's going to take the full 90 days, right? [00:21:07] So in that 90 days. With any position, but especially in sales, don't expect them to come in and then just start selling. Oh, wow, they closed a bunch of deals. That was awesome. That's so cool. So there's kind of a ramp up period in every position, but certainly in sales. So shadowing is very important here. [00:21:31] They need to be all over you. All the time. So you need to meet with them every day.  [00:21:40] Jason: Or whoever is the person they're learning from. Sometimes it's not going to be you, eventually. In the beginning, it's always you, right? Which leads us to, like, availability and access is huge in the beginning. Like, if a team member doesn't have access to you, or you are unavailable because you're so busy. [00:21:58] They're going to feel stuck. They're going to feel unsupported. They're going to feel fearful in what they're doing. And so they need to have availability. This morning, I got a phone call. Like a call came in through Telegram. She called me and she's like, "Hey, I'm supposed to do a triage call right now? I have a scheduled appointment, and I'm trying to load Zoom and it's saying, it's waiting for the host. And I'm supposed to be the host." And I said, Then just call them, like pick up the phone, just call them. It's a quick call anyway, but it probably has to do with maybe you're not logged in or you click the link somewhere else and it doesn't realize you're logged in. [00:22:31] It happens to me sometimes. And she said, okay, yeah, I'll just call them. You know, if she were in that situation, this is her first triage call and she's like totally stuck and I'm like unavailable and she's freaking out, then she's going to feel, you know, people go through all sorts of emotions like anger, shame, guilt, fear, like, you know, stuff like this. And so we don't want to put our team members on this emotional rollercoaster of discomfort when everything's uncertain in the beginning. So that's important. Once we get through and the onboarding period, my general rule for onboarding is 90 days, like you said, then the first the first 30, I'm usually meeting with them maybe for an hour a day and I'm highly available.  [00:23:12] Sarah: Every day. [00:23:13] Jason: Yeah. [00:23:14] Sarah: Every day.  [00:23:15] Jason: That's usually the goal. And then after that, I might the next month, maybe it's a shorter time period every day if I'm over like consistently training them like a BDM especially. But otherwise, it might be that we start backing it off to maybe meeting weekly. And then depending on the role of whether or not I'm their supervisor directly, or if they're kind of owning a piece of the business, I then might back it off in the last month or eventually for the future to meet with them monthly to support them or whatnot. Like you kind of gradually step it down and it'll be obvious because you'll be getting on calls with them and like, Hey, what else should we talk about? What else do you need to know? What other questions you have or hey, I want to make sure you know this and you're going to start to run out of ideas. And they're going to start to not need you as much. And so then it's pretty obvious. Well, okay, then I guess we'll end this early. And that's a clue. Well, maybe we don't need to meet as often now. And they'll let you know. You know, do you think we need to keep meeting all the time like this? Like, well, it is helpful, but I don't know that we need an hour, maybe 30 minutes. Okay, cool. If we could just meet 15 minutes each day so I can get unstuck on a few things. Awesome. Right. So I meet with my assistant every day for a short amount of time. [00:24:26] But they're directly responsible to help and support me on things as an operator, like you run our weekly meeting and our daily huddles. Right? And so there's different things like there's sort of a cadence of structure, even regardless. So. I think after we get through onboarding and you've got good access, good availability, they feel supported and they're succeeding, they need to be getting results. [00:24:50] So I think the next step in my mind is there needs to be accountability. So if you're letting somebody just run and it's 60 days in and they are not succeeding or getting results, like cool, how many calls has the BDM made? "I don't know." Okay. How, like, how often have you met with them? "Well, you know, not often." If there's no part of meeting with them is to create accountability. [00:25:13] Like, Hey, what are you working on today? What do you feel like is next? What are you going to be doing? And to make sure that you're guiding them towards what they should be working on. So accountability means, you know, metrics if they're a bDM.  [00:25:26] Sarah: You need to know the metrics.  [00:25:28] Jason: How many networking events have they gone to in the last week? [00:25:31] How many phone calls and outreach have they made to potential referral partners or real estate agents? How many investors have they reached out or called? Are they on top of all of the follow up tasks and deals that are in the CRM? Do you have a CRM, right? Like there needs to be accountability. So there's a record. [00:25:50] Are they keeping notes? Are they, are the calls recorded? Can you listen to their calls to help them improve? Like if there's no transparency or accountability, there's almost no likelihood that they're going to succeed. Like it's because they're not being watched. So, basically, you're sending the signal, it doesn't matter. [00:26:08] You might get somebody that's an amazing self starter.  [00:26:11] Sarah: Go figure it out. Well, shit, I don't know. I guess I'll just make it up. But then when they make a decision and now their decision is different than your decision, now, you didn't tell them what to do. They just made something up and now you're not happy with the results. [00:26:28] Jason: Yeah, and they're lacking leadership and if they're lacking in your jobs to be the leader and they're lacking leadership, then they have no accountability and they have no, there's no transparency or visibility in what they're doing. You won't know. If what they're doing is working or not working. And so they'll just keep doing what's not working. [00:26:48] Because if they still get paid either way, that's a bad situation for most team members. Most team members will continue to get paid whether or not they're really performing at an exceptional level or a decent level. And with a BDM, their compensation should be directly connected to getting results, so they should really want it. [00:27:06] But if there's no accountability or transparency in the beginning, They're probably going to do a lot of stuff that isn't working and they're going to be frustrated and they  [00:27:15] Sarah: know why it's not working  [00:27:17] Jason: Yeah,  [00:27:18] Sarah: they'll come to you and say hey like I'm doing what you told me to do. You told me to make all these calls I mean all these calls. It's not working.  [00:27:26] Jason: And this is one of the ways in which DoorGrow can assist. [00:27:29] We can assist with this, right? Like they can show up to our Wednesday coaching call if they're a BDM focusing on growth. And the BDM can come to the call and say, Hey, I'm trying to do this and I'm getting this result. It's not the outcome I'm looking for. It's not working. Cool. Maybe you need to change this. [00:27:44] Or how are you saying it? Or what are you doing? Or could you send us a call recording? So all of these things that we teach, we know work. They can work. If it's not working, then it's obvious that it must be what they're doing. They're not doing it correct. They're doing it maybe in the wrong way or maybe they're not saying the right things or maybe their tone is off or maybe They are turning people off and they sound like a telemarketer or they're creating the sales ick or the sales resistance in people by how they're approaching people and these are easy changes These are little things that are very easy to tweak or change. [00:28:22] I mean just listening to one sales call from somebody, I can give them a lot of feedback and it's like they grow so much faster and quicker. And that's one way to add some visibility or accountability into the equation. But as a business owner, you need to know their metrics. They need to have metrics and be accountable for that, right? [00:28:40] They need to know what are the leading actions that I need to be taking that are going to get the business development results? What are the daily activities that I need to be doing in order to succeed? So that's my take  [00:28:53] Sarah: for sure. And I love listening to the call recordings because then sometimes when you're in the moment and this happens to all of us, sometimes when you're in the moment, you have a certain perception of how things went and then when you go back and you listen to it later, you'll catch something that you weren't aware of in that moment. [00:29:14] So maybe it's something that they said, maybe it's something that you said, maybe you. Didn't explain something the way that they understood it, but you'll hear things that you may have missed in the moment and Especially with salespeople, this is a training opportunity. So a lot of times people go "what am I supposed to train them on? Like they know how to use the CRM? they know how to use the phone system. They know what to do. They got to just go do it." Okay? Well Are we honing in skills? Are we improving things? Or are we just saying like, "Go do it! Go make a thousand calls this week!: Okay, well, if I make a thousand shitty calls  [00:29:53] Jason: Yeah, you're just wasting energy and you're wasting your leads or your opportunities. [00:29:58] Sarah: So there's always this fine tuning that we have to do. And very rarely are people able to do it for themselves. Sometimes they can go back and listen to a call recording and then go, Oh, you know what? I'm going to improve that. But a lot of times it's really good to have two people listening to the call recording for that reason. [00:30:20] And then the last thing that I do want to talk about is what does the 30, 60, 90 day period look like? So I always tell people in their first 30 days, this is nothing but training. This is deep training, you really do need to be meeting with them every day, not when it's convenient, not when you have time, not, "oh, well, I skipped that day because this happened." [00:30:42] Every single day, every day, they need to have the correct resources, the correct knowledge, the right support, the questions need to be answered, you need to be available to them. They need to have all of this because they're brand new. So a lot of times what happens is people hire somebody and it's like a little baby bird and then they push the baby bird out of the nest. [00:31:08] The bird can't fly yet because you didn't even teach it what its wings are, right? So we can't do that yet. So in the first 30 days, really expect nothing. Really, they just need to be training. If they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome. Great! I mean, they should be doing the activities. [00:31:27] Jason: I expect work.  [00:31:28] Sarah: Yes,  [00:31:29] Jason: I expect to actually and work like if it's to make calls, I expect them in like a BDM should be making some outbound outreach and calls right away.  [00:31:39] Sarah: Absolutely.  [00:31:40] Jason: Otherwise, how are you going to know that  [00:31:41] Sarah: if it's going to, yeah,  [00:31:43] Jason: they shouldn't just be like, just learning. So it's like, I want to get them on the phone and get them making calls. [00:31:47] Sarah: No, but in sales, let's be really clear here. Training. This is hands on training. This is like trying to say, "Hey, I need to go learn how to drive a car. But I'm never actually going to get in the car. I'm going to meet with you on Zoom or I'm going to sit with you and you're going to tell me about how to drive a car." [00:32:03] No, honey, you gotta go get in the car. So, yes, you have to actually be doing it, doing the activities.  [00:32:09] That is training.  [00:32:10] Jason: There's no amount of manuals or videos you could read or watch that would teach you how to drive a car. You have to drive the car.  [00:32:17] Sarah: Yes. So, if they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome, that's gravy, that's a bonus. [00:32:23] But sometimes people go, "oh man, it's been 30 days and I haven't closed anything. Like, man, they must suck." They're new. They're learning so much and when you implement a new thing, you're probably not going to be very good at it. Especially a new strategy or a new way of doing sales because the way that we teach our clients to sell is different. [00:32:43] It's different. We're not hardcore closing everybody. We're not doing that. So it's, everything is different. They don't have their bearings yet. They don't even have their footing and their foundations, right? So 30 days, if they close something, that's great. But I still, I want them to be training and I want them to be doing some sort of, you know, whatever it's going to be. [00:33:04] If you have them doing events or presentations or calls or a mixture of all of them, great.  [00:33:10] Jason: There should be progress. You'll see progress. And if that's the thing you don't want to tolerate somebody being in the business for 60 days, 90 days, and you're not seeing progress or action, and you're trying to push them. [00:33:23] If you're having to push somebody to do something. Probably they're not the right personality fit. If you feel unsafe with them doing things, and it makes you uncomfortable, how they're doing things, probably not a culture fit. They're not doing it according to your values. [00:33:36] The "how" they go about doing it is different than you. If they're just not doing the right things, then that's a training issue. Or they're just not intelligent enough to learn the skill. So that's a skill fit. Okay,  [00:33:48] Sarah: so then 60 days I do want to see some progress. They might close something. [00:33:55] They still might not it depends. I can't say yes or no Oh, they should definitely close. I can't you can't say that because everybody has their own time frame, right? And investors sometimes they work on their own time frames. You can't control that but I do want to see I want to feel like things are happening, and I want to feel like, Hey, we've got some stuff in the pipeline, we've got some stuff that I feel like might close. [00:34:20] If you say, Hey, what do you have that's about to close? Do you feel like anybody's close? And they go not really. Oh... [00:34:27] Jason: are they getting appointments? Are there relationships being built? Are there deals now kind of get in the pipeline at some of the earlier stages? Like you should start to see the sales pipeline mature and build. [00:34:37] Sarah: So then 90 days they've been doing that. Now they understand everything. They know what to do. They know how to do it. They've gotten their feet wet. They've now tested things and then also made some improvements. They're like, Oh, well, when I say it like this, it doesn't work. It doesn't resonate. [00:34:53] But if I say it like this, it's better. Oh I have to switch this and this, right? Now you're making those little tweaks, those little improvements. So 90 days, they should be able to close something at this point. And same thing with the pipeline. I need to see the pipeline moving forward. I need to see more being added in the pipeline. [00:35:11] I need to see them further along in different stages in the pipeline. Things need to start kind of really moving forward at this point. And then after the 90 days, Now, you get to push the bird out of the nest, right? Now, you're a baby bird, go push him. You should now have everything that you need to be able to soar, as long as we did our job. [00:35:34] But a lot of times, I get it, it's hard, because you're running a business, and you're an entrepreneur, and you're busy, and it's crazy. And now you want me to train somebody? Yep. Yeah. Because once they are able to do it for you, now you can relax into it. But if we skip the training, what's going to happen is you're going to go, man, they're just not getting me the results. [00:35:55] Or they might get frustrated and go, man, my boss sucks. Like they don't train me on. Anything, and it's just not, it's not a good place here. I know, I'm going to leave because I know that if I don't, then I'll eventually get fired. So regardless, they're going to leave. And then you're going to have to go, God, well now I have to go hire somebody. [00:36:11] And then you're going to hire somebody. And then you're going to be in this whole hiring cycle of hell for the rest of eternity. And that's not a fun place to be. It's not. It's really painful.  [00:36:21] Jason: Yeah, a lot of people wait until they're in pain to hire instead of hiring strategically with a plan or, you know, in advance. [00:36:29] And so once you get to the place where you need a new team member, and then you hire, and now you're going to have to, you're kind of shot in the foot, and you're going to have to like go backwards time wise, like then you're in a worse spot, like that's not the ideal place to be hiring. And then later you'll create more freedom you know, eventually, but yeah, you want to make sure that you are kind of aware of your capacity and starting to like get your hiring systems, get your new hires in place in advance before you need it. [00:37:01] And this is why it's super important to make sure you're making the right decisions in the business. So we have frameworks for how to decide what you need most in the business and frameworks for how to decide what the business needs most. So you're making healthy. financial hiring decisions because making wrong decisions that way can really hurt cash flow and can, you know, especially early in the business can really be dangerous. [00:37:22] So, well, is there anything else you'd say to maybe some of our clients or people that they've gotten a new hire. It's probably a good hire and they need to make sure they're doing their onboarding and taking care of this new hire correctly.  [00:37:36] Sarah: Yeah, get it on your calendar. Don't just say you're going to do it. [00:37:40] It has to be scheduled time where it's dedicated. And also, don't half ass it. Don't be like, oh yeah, I'm going to be on the phone with Joe while I'm like over here. They know. That's not dedicated. That does not feel good. We've all been on the receiving end of something like that. So, don't make people guess. [00:37:59] Don't make them figure it out. It's not going to work out well.  [00:38:03] Jason: Alright. That's our episode for today. So I think that this should be pretty helpful for some of our clients that are getting into new hires And hopefully it was helpful for a lot of you listening if you're struggling with hiring or building your team or systems or profit, all this relates to the people system in your business. You need people, planning, and process and that's our super system. If you're needing some help with this, reach out to DoorGrow and we can take you to a whole nother level by getting helping you get these systems installed and you'll have a business that you actually enjoy being in. So until next time to our mutual growth. [00:38:42] Bye everyone. [00:38:43] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:39:10] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

With food insecurity rising the world over, we cannot escape the reality that climate change is changing our food supply. This means people's livelihoods and lifestyles are changing too, particularly in developing countries. Join us on the Leading Voices in Food podcast as we discuss the rising impact of climate change on food security and livelihoods in Central America, specifically Honduras. Host Norbert Wilson, Director of the World Food Policy Center, along with co-host Sarah Bermeo, delve into the challenges and solutions with experts Marie-Soleil Turmel from Catholic Relief Services and Ana Andino from Duke University. Learn about the Dry Corridor, the effects of climate shocks, land restoration practices, and the role of international support in building community resilience. Interview Summary Sarah - Marie, some of your work with Catholic Relief Services engages with smallholder farmers in an area known as the Dry Corridor of Central America. Can you explain what the Dry Corridor is and provide some context about the food security situation in that area, and how much do residents depend on their own crops to provide food for their families? Marie - So, the Dry Corridor of Central America refers to a region that stretches across the Pacific side of Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua. The region has a long dry season and a rainy season when the crops are produced. In the last 10 years, this region has been characterized as one of the most vulnerable to climate change. Mainly due to prolonged dry spells in the growing season and more unpredictable rainfall patterns. This region is made up of many small holder farmers in the rural population. These are small hillside farms growing staple crops, maize or corn, and beans with relatively low yields. And most of the household consumption is coming from these farms, and they're selling any surplus that is produced in a good year. These are rain-fed production systems. So, the amount of food that the farms produced is directly tied to the amount of rainfall, making them extremely vulnerable to droughts and climate shocks. And also the region has a very high degree of soil degradation. It's estimated 70 percent of agricultural soil is in a state of severe degradation. This makes farms even more susceptible to climate shocks. So, this is a region that's already struggling with poverty. Close to 8 million people are living in a situation of food insecurity. And now with increasing climate shocks that are affecting crop yields, it's sending more people into a situation of food emergency and requiring food aid. Norbert - Thank you, Marie, for providing that context. Ana, let's now turn to you. I understand that you've worked with the Honduran Ministry of Finance and the Inter American Development Bank on issues relating to economic development in Honduras. What do you view as some of the key development challenges facing the country? Ana - So Honduras faces several challenges which have been dragged out for many years. And now some of them have even worsened, particularly since 2020 when we were hit by the pandemic and the storms Eta and Iota. It's tough to pinpoint just one or a few of them since it's a convergence of complex scenarios, but if I had to mention one - and going along with the conversation we're having today - I would mention intersection between climate change and economic vulnerability. As we heard Marie talking about the Dry Corridor, there are many rural communities that rely heavily on agriculture. But climate variability has made it even more difficult to maintain stable food production, affecting income and food insecurity. So, by mid-2023, about 25 percent of the population was suffering from food insecurity. Nationally, agriculture provides employment for approximately 30 percent of the country's workforce. And there's verification agriculture is also limited, which, this dependency constrains sustainable growth and resilience. Also, I cannot leave behind the access to basic services such as water and electricity. Of course, I'll include in this education, right? It is important, and it's not only a matter of access to them, but also the quality of their services. Many households lack access to clean water. This impacts their daily life, but also their agricultural productivity. And even in the main cities, there is an inconsistent access to water and electricity, which affects livelihoods, but also small businesses to larger industries. Education is a no-brainer, since both access and quality remain a serious challenge. In this list, I would also like to add crime and violence, which remain high. And even though there has been an improvement in the last years, particularly reducing homicide rates, it still remains as one of the highest in Latin America. The situation is even worse when we look at femicide. Because Honduras is still one of the highest or has one of the highest rates of femicide in the region. That often goes along with high levels of impunity. And finally, we're almost getting there to my list of challenges, I would say that there is a lack of infrastructure, particularly in rural areas. There is no reliable access to roads or markets, which affects a lot of smallholder farmers. This also affects connectivity for roads. It limits access to health care and education. And these all are challenges that compound together. And yeah, to finally wrap it up, it's that without institutions that can effectively implement policies and manage resources, it'll be hard to, to have development efforts and to see growth in the country. Norbert - This sounds like a daunting set of challenges. And I realized that obviously in this conversation and the work that's going to happen later this week, we're not able to address all of those. But I would like to pull back and ask you both about issues around climate. And so, for the both of you, I'd be intrigued to understand this. Central America is believed to be highly susceptible to climate change, and Marie, you've already mentioned this. What are some of the key effects that climate change is having on the region? And I've heard you already talk about issues around availability of water. But how do these affect the livelihoods and particularly, how does this affect food security? So, Ana, let's begin with you. Ana – So, as Marie mentioned, there are a lot of extreme weather events going around, such as prolonged droughts, intense rainfall, tropical storms. And these weather patterns have a direct and severe impact on agricultural productivity. Especially in regions where families rely a lot on subsistence farming. It becomes a challenge to plant, to harvest crops. This leads to a reduction in yields. Also, people have less income, referring to income losses, which in the end has a cascading effect on food insecurity and poverty. So basically, what happens is that families have less to sell, but also have less to eat. If we transition to urban areas, climate change could cause floodings and damage to infrastructure, affecting severely industrial activity as well. This will disrupt the livelihoods of the people. In urban and rural areas, it exacerbates difficulties in accessing food, in accessing clean water, in accessing electricity. And just to give you an example, this happened back in 2020, right after Eta and Iota. We had long lasting effects, causing damage to agriculture, to livestock, to infrastructure. The effect on GDP was approximately eight to nine percent of GDP. And unsurprisingly, poverty rose 14 percentage points, which is a big increase. If you see national surveys going around, they have shown that people are having issues with getting access to food. And many people have also had to change their diet, leaving behind some proteins and introducing more carbohydrates or, or foods that are less expensive than proteins, right? And I would leave it there. Yeah. Norbert - This is really important. Thank you for sharing that. Marie, what about you? Marie - Ana really summed it up well, but I would add that it's really important to understand that that these farmers don't have crop insurance to fall back on like farmers in the U.S. So, we're seeing more frequent climate shocks, sometimes years in a row. Droughts and hurricanes. And farmers might be able to borrow seed or money, or to buy inputs to replant the next year, but after consecutive bad harvests, they run out of options and resources and really can't recover. And also keeping in mind that about 60 percent of the food in the region is coming from smallholder farms. And these climate shocks resulting in yield damage have implications for food prices and food security at the regional level, not just at the farm level, right? Sarah - So, Ana and Marie, you do a very nice job laying out the multiple challenges that are facing in urban areas. Turning from that to thinking about adaptations or policy changes that could be successful, can you think of some that might help in decreasing the negative impacts of climate change on farmers, particularly in the Dry Corridor? And, have you seen evidence? Can you bring evidence from your previous work for this to think about pathways forward and whether or not those would be scalable to additional farmers. Marie - So, a focus on land restoration and soil restoration is really key to building climate resilience. As I mentioned, these are areas with really highly degraded soils that are even more susceptible to these climate shocks. So, we're talking about managing the soil to manage water. And I just want to take a moment to explain why soil is so important for climate resilience. A healthy soil will capture and infiltrate more rainwater. These are rain fed systems, depending on every drop that falls. They store more water for plant production and also percolate more water down to recharge groundwater, which has an implication for water availability in the whole area. In a degraded soil, like much of the agricultural land in the Dry Corridor and other parts of the world, soils have lost this function, and the rainwater runs off, it's not captured, it's not stored, and the resulting, the crops grown in that soil are much more susceptible to periods without rain, and there's overall less water availability. When soil and water resources are degraded, agricultural productivity is low, the families are susceptible to climate shocks, and this keeps them in a cycle of emergency and recovery and poverty. The good news is that the ability of soils to capture and store rainwater can be restored with good agricultural practices that build soil organic matter, protect, and protect the soils from erosion. In Catholic Relief Services and in our programs, we call this Water Smart Agriculture Practices. In one of our programs from 2016 to 2020, we monitored a network of farms where we tested these practices with farmers on their farms and side by side plots comparing the water smart agriculture practices with conventional practices. Within that period, a very severe drought in 2018 hit. It affected the whole region and we found that these soils during a very severe drought could store up to 26 percent more moisture during this drought period. And on average yields were 39 percent higher. In a drought year, this can make the difference between a family producing enough food to still meet their household needs or being in an emergency situation and having to rely on food aid. And also, we found it in good years, yields were also much higher because of these good management practices. Meaning that farmers could produce and sell more surplus and improve their income savings. And this also contributes to greater overall resilience. And just to note also that these practices also sequester more carbon in agricultural systems, which also has climate mitigation impacts. Now this alone, soil management alone, is not going to bring farmers out of poverty. We need to build on this foundation of good natural resource management with market access, diversification with more lucrative crops access to financing and, of course, increasing opportunities for women and youth. But all this needs to be built on this foundation of restoring soil and water resources so that we can be successful with these other types of development interventions. We're working to scale these practices in the Dry Corridor by working with a network of partners, including other local NGOs, government agencies. And one of the main limitations is that farmers have is gaining access to any type of agricultural extension services. So, we're really working to strengthen local extension. We're using a hybrid model that combines field training with digital extension tools and radio for mass communication to reach more people. And we know from some of our work and some of the work I'm doing with Sarah and Ana to look at the adoption of these practices, that when farmers do have access to extension services and training, they are in fact applying and adopting the practices. Sarah - Thank you, Marie, for providing the detail about some of the programs that you're seeing and that the evidence, these are evidence-based practices that are actually making a difference for the farmers that you are working with. I want to turn to Ana now and shift the conversation just a little bit. You know, Marie was laying out potential ways to turn things around and ways that life could become better for farmers. But what do you see as some of the consequences of inaction if we don't keep on with these programs and if programs are not scaled up to help smallholder farmers and others in the region. What do you think will be the consequences of that for poverty and food security in Central America? Ana - Sarah, that's a great question. Again, it's hard to give an exact answer on what would be the exact results of this. But there was this one thing that popped into my mind immediately, which is an accelerated flow of people migrating both within the region and towards the U.S. as well. Because people are seeking to escape these harsh living conditions, right? So, food insecurity will get worse, particularly in susceptible areas like the Dry Corridor where farmers are already struggling with this climate unpredictability. Rural families will also face greater challenges in meeting their basic nutritional needs. potentially leading to malnutrition and health crises. And even in urban areas, high prices and food shortage will disproportionately impact the most vulnerable communities, exacerbating inequality. Now, in addition to that, failing to act now will result in a greater cost in the future. And I believe another concerning consequence of inaction is the displacement of young people. And here I must add that right now Honduras has a demographic difference and we're not taking advantage of it. Many young individuals migrate in search of better opportunities, leading to the so-called brain drain. Or they even leave the country without any further motivation to help the country while they're abroad. So, with insufficient opportunities for education, for employment, we are risking youth becoming trapped in cycles of poverty. We're losing people that are capable of helping the country, and this will undermine long term community development and stability. Norbert - Ana, thanks so much for providing that context for the need for action and what consequences of inaction might be. You know, this has been a challenging conversation. We've talked about a number of things that are going wrong or where some of the challenges are. I actually want to turn the conversation to see some ways forward. And so, what are some of the positive changes that can take place? And, you know, Catholic Relief Services is doing some really important work. And I want to hear more about that. But I also want to hear about it in the context of what could happen if policy makers, government officials or decision makers in the international development institutions, if they changed policy or created new opportunities. What would you say are still some really pressing needs and where would you focus money and efforts to get the biggest impact or hope for the most people? Marie? Let's start with you. Marie - I want to emphasize again just the importance of investing in land and soil restoration as a foundation, as a strategy to build climate resilience. Now, we really need programs that are also creating economic opportunities and developing markets for farmers, but this needs to be linked with land restoration initiatives in order to ensure resilience and the sustainability of these activities. You know, when land and soil is restored, these practices aren't just implemented, and they're not just implemented at the farm level, but like over whole landscapes. This improves productivity, but also water availability for households, urban areas, and other activities. So even programs that promote irrigation technologies as a solution for the Dry Corridor, which is really like a way forward also. These need to be linked with the land restoration activities because this water needs to come from somewhere. So, we need to ensure that we're protecting our water resources and ensuring the availability for these other activities, or else we won't be successful. And they also won't be sustainable. We also really need to invest more in capacity-building aspects of our development programming. Not just focusing on asset replacement, which is necessary, but we need a good balance of investing in capacity building. This means farmers, agronomists, agricultural institutes to strengthen the extension systems and improving access to information around soil and climate, for improved decision making and management of these resources in order to also take action to reduce overall risk and climate risk in the area. So really building the capacity in the management practices that can in the long term reduce dependencies on external aid. Norbert - Ana, what about you? Ana- I think Marie summed up everything very well. But if I had to rephrase what she said in my own words, I would focus a lot on infrastructure development. Both physical and digital. This is essential. Investing in better roads, market access, but also digital connectivity would enable the population of farmers and entrepreneurs to reach bigger markets, fostering economic growth and development. And I'll also include improvements to infrastructure to be climate resilient and friendly to the environment. And going along to what she said about capacity development, I would also give focus on improving productive skills. Many companies in the region and especially in Honduras highlight the limited ability of the workforce to generate high value opportunities as a major constraint. So, concrete advances in competitiveness and innovation are needed in this sense. And I would wrap this wish list saying that for any policy to be considered if you want to talk to them to any government official or international organization, there has to be more focus and importance on inclusive policies. They have to engage local communities, they have to engage women, they have to engage youth in decision making processes. Basically, we want to ensure that these groups have voice in policy development. Sarah - Great. Thanks Ana. I want to, you know, turn this attention now to thinking about research. So, Duke is an institution where research is one of our primary functions. And thinking broadly about the impacts of climate change on agriculture and food security, where do you see the biggest need for additional research? And maybe to think about in another way which research questions if they were answered could be transformative? And how might academic research and researchers partner with organizations like Catholic Relief Services and others doing work in the field in order to answer some of these questions about practical applications that could help on the ground? And Ana, let's begin with you. Ana - Thank you for your question, Sarah. I would say our work with Catholic Relief Services has given us a lot of ideas on how we can improve in this sense. For instance, we need to understand how different technologies and practices performed in diverse kinds of conditions are crucial. What factors influence farmers' adoption of one technology more than another, considering the heterogeneity of each farmer and each living condition. But I would also be interested in exploring how climate change impacts household dynamics and whether there is a shift in roles. Men and women, right? If there is an increase in women empowerment within the agricultural context once they're exposed to these new technologies. How they make the decision on what to eat, how much to eat, what to produce, what not to produce. And I would say also, and this is my Santa wish list of the things I want to research about as well is understanding their desire to migrate even under these improved conditions. Like even though we're giving them this technology, it's like what is actually keeping these farmers that we are helping stay and keep doing or producing what they're doing in involving improving with time. Sarah - Marie, what about you? Marie - Yes, so from the development organization perspective, collaborations with academic institutes can really provide an opportunity for us to go beyond the scope of the kind of monitoring and learning that we build into our development projects. And bring in different levels of expertise, and research methods. So definitely something that can be beneficial for our programming. I see two main areas that require more research and where, you know, collaborating with academic organizations or institutes could be, could be a benefit. The first is really around the whole biophysical type research on agricultural systems. Practices to accelerate land restoration, drought tolerant crops and varieties to improve resilience to climate and market shocks. And calibrating and applying different tools for decision making around soils and water resources. And then the other area is really research in development. So, what's the effectiveness of our different delivery methods of our programs, our extension models, and strategies for reaching and including women and youth. Understanding the scaling strategy and how we can reach more farmers. And also, translating these results and program impacts into policy recommendations. So really, research that informs our development strategy to ensure that programs are really leading to transformative, sustainable change and improvements in livelihoods and food security and resilience. Norbert - I really do appreciate hearing this. As a researcher, it's, it's so easy to get, sort of, how do I get the next paper in a journal. But what you're talking about are research questions that really move the development efforts forward. That are, sort of, informed by what's happening on the ground to make sure that the work that you all are doing is the work that leads to the best outcomes for the largest number of people. BIOS Marie-Soleil Turmel is the Scientific Advisor for the Catholic Relief Services Water Smart Agriculture Platform in the Latin America and Caribbean Region. She is an Agronomist/Soil Scientist with 15 years of experience conducting research and extension to promote soil health, productivity, and climate resilience of smallholder farming systems in Latin America. Before joining CRS, she worked as a Research Scientist for the International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center (CIMMYT) and Bioversity International. Marie holds a Ph.D. in Soil Science from McGill University and an M.Sc. in Agronomy from the University of Manitoba.   Ana Andino is a PhD student in Public Policy with a concentration in Economics at Duke University's Sanford School of Public Policy. Prior to joining Duke, Ana worked on development issues in Honduras with the Inter-American Development Bank and Honduran Ministry of Finance. She is now an integral part of the Duke team collaborating with Catholic Relief Services. Her research interests are in political economy, climate migration, food insecurity, and international development. She holds a Master of Science in local economic development from the London School of Economics. 

Honoring the Memory While Embracing the Present Today marks the 23rd anniversary of the tragic events of September 11, 2001. As we remember the bravery and loss experienced that day, it's essential to acknowledge how it reshaped our lives and perspectives. Today, The Patrick Madrid Show reflects on the enduring impact of 9/11 through heartfelt personal accounts and solemn remembrances. Here are three key takeaways from this deeply moving episode: Resilience in the Face of Fear: Multiple callers spoke about the immediate fear that followed the attacks, yet highlighted the strength they found in their faith, family, and community. The Value of Remembrance: Guests emphasized that remembering 9/11 isn't about lingering in sadness but honoring the victims and ensuring such events are never forgotten—paralleling how other historical tragedies are commemorated to educate and unite us. Embracing the Present: Reflective stories shared by callers revealed a newfound appreciation for daily life and family. Many adopted practices of regularly expressing love and gratitude, understanding the fragility and preciousness of each moment. Join us in remembering and reflecting. Show Notes for today: Glen Lewerenz shares where he was on 9/11 (04:15) Fr. Rocky shares where he was on 9/11 (10:26) Sarah - Thank you for playing the clip today. I am 21 and I have never heard anything like that from 9/11 (20:29) Connie - I was a volunteer at Ground zero to help. (25:01) Shirley - My husband and I had plane tickets to go on vacation to the East Coast. We flew out on the 10th. The hijackers were in the same airport that we went through. (31:45) Preston – I was only 6-years-old. It was a scary time. I always thought planes might crash and I was afraid of Muslims (34:41) Muriel - I was in downtown NY and on my way to work (39:57) Alexis – 9/11 caused a huge conversion for me. I worked down at ground zero. My brother also was at Ground Zero and it was providential that he was not in the buildings. I got breast cancer later that was related to what happened on 9/11. (45:41)

Join us for an insightful episode of the VRTAC-QM Manager Minute as Brittny MacIver and Sarah Clardy from the VRTAC-QM team share their expertise on case management systems. Brittny, an expert in Program and Performance within our Quality Management team, and Sarah, the Program Director for Fiscal and Resource Management, delve into best practices and the growing trend of states seeking to upgrade their systems. Learn about the nuances of state requests and the RFP process, and gain valuable knowledge to help you decide whether it's time to stay with your current system or make a move. Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music}   Brittny: Avoid over customizing the system. There's a lot of systems out there that are already available in VR agencies, and so if it works for that VR agency, there's a good chance the majority of the processes are going to work for your agency as well.   Sarah: Silos, how do we break down silos? And this process really can be a nice segue to combining program and fiscal together. I know we've said that multiple times, and I don't think we can say it enough. This process really is an opportunity to develop relationships.   Brittny: Be curious. Your agency may have a process that you're unsure why it exists. Some may say that's how it's always been. I think it's good to be curious, figure out the reason behind it, and see if there's a way that you can streamline those processes.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Today I'm thrilled to have two of my esteemed colleagues, Brittny MacIver and Sarah Clardy from the VRTAC-QM, joining me in the studio today. So, Brittny, how's it going for you?   Brittny: It's going great. How about you?   Carol: Awesome. I'm better for seeing your smiling face this morning. And how about you, Miss Clardy? How are you doing?   Sarah: I'm great. Great to kick off a new week.   Carol: Excellent. So for our listeners, Brittny serves on the program and performance side of our QM team. And Sarah is the program director for the fiscal and resource management side of our QM team. And both of these ladies have extensive experience with case management systems. And during one of our regular Core QM Team meetings, I asked the team, I'm like, hey, what are some potential podcast ideas? And Brittny said, you know what? There are a lot of state voc rehab agencies on a quest right now for a new case management system. Either your state is requesting you to do another request for proposal or you're just like, hey, is there something better out there? So with lots of new players that have entered the market, your case management system is a lifeline. And if it's not functioning optimally, it can really lead to some significant issues. So we just wanted to have a conversation today that can help to guide you through this journey with open eyes. So let's dig in. So of course our listeners always like to know, like how did you people get into VR? Everybody wonders, like what's your story? So I want to hear from each of you about kind of your journey into VR. So Sarah, I'm going to kick it off with you.   Sarah: So many of you know Ron Vessell, he's a staple around VR. Ron actually hired me back in the year 2000. I was a very green government accountant just starting out, didn't know what I was getting into, and they took a chance on a new, young professional. And so I did a deep dive early in my career and never looked back.   Carol: Very nice, I love that. How about you, Britt? How did you find your way into VR? You came a little different way.   Brittny: Yeah, I think it was definitely a unique path. I actually worked in criminal justice at the prison system as a counselor for quite some time. They were privatizing the position, which meant we were kind of losing benefits. We're no longer going to be a state employee. So I started looking around for other counseling positions. And at my time at the prison, I found that there was a lot of individuals with disabilities and a lot of obstacles that we had to address and assist with while we were there. And so when I seen the position at VR, I was very interested in it interviewed. And that's where I got my start about 14 years ago.   Carol: And which state was that in? Britt.   Brittny: That was in.Indiana.   Carol: Yeah. That's cool. I think that's great. So you worked with Teresa?   Brittny: Yes.   Carol: Very good.   Brittny: I always joke and say my four years at the prison. And then I have to clarify when I was working.   Carol: I love that. In fact, we had a guest last month that also had come up through the correctional system as well. It was really fun, but that definitely having that skill set behind you coming into VR is super important, really needed. So let's talk a little bit about your work. Both of you do for the QM. Just so our listeners have a little sense. And Britt, I'm going to start with you about that. Like can you give them a little flavor kind of for what you do in this TA world?   Brittny: Yeah, as you mentioned I work on the performance team. So really all things performance. But we help agencies address performance related needs. So this can be anywhere from training on performance measures to data analysis on performance data, reviewing policy procedures, internal controls and sometimes even assessing the system impact around performance and seeing how that impacts the reporting pieces.   Carol: Yeah, I love our performance team, the stuff you guys do, and you're so good at your analysis and really looking at taking that data and really digging in deep as to what's going on. So it's a very, very important piece of what is happening out there for our VR programs as we're delivering that technical assistance. How about you, Sarah?   Sarah: I have the great pleasure of leading the financial arm of the VRTACQM, and understanding that the VR award is the probably the most complex award within the grants management world. It really covers a wide array of skills and knowledge and isn't just financial based, it's also program based. So under the QM, we help agencies sort of manage the grant from the whole life cycle perspective, making sure that all the federal requirements are met, taking a look at individual state requirements, how those two things intersect, and we spend a lot of time, probably the majority of my time is actually spent in the period of performance arena, and specifically as it relates to this topic today with case management service systems.   Carol: Excellent. So, Brittny, you had mentioned the issue of people are looking for a new case management system. And I know as of late it feels like we've had at least a half a dozen folks saying, you know, we're doing a new RFP. We either have to for the state or we're going out for a new system. What advice do you have kind of off the bat for people who are considering venturing into this new RFP process?   Brittny: Yeah, I think before writing the RFP, I think it's important for the state or the agency to do some research on what systems are out there. A lot of agencies are writing an RFP based on what their current system does, and they end up with a very similar system. The process and all the hard work of getting a new system can be really exciting. It could mean new innovative features and easier case management process, which leads to improved efficiency, improve services and outcomes. You could find a system that would help with documentation times. You can reduce that, and then that way the counselor can spend more time with their participants. So I think just seeing what's out there and what's available to help you write that RFP is huge.   Carol: Sarah, how about you? What's your perspective on making sure those fiscal pieces are addressed as they are thinking about RFPing?   Sarah: Oh goodness. There's so many perspectives to consider here. I think first and foremost states need to understand period of performance. I feel like that's a term that we make really complicated. And it's really nothing more than just looking at the funding sources that are available and understanding the timeline that agencies can obligate and expend funds. So I think, first and foremost, understanding period of performance. The second key piece really is understanding state requirements. We have a lot of states that aren't either aware of what their state requires, or there are things that are in place that they think is required by the state. And when we start doing a deep dive into what that looks like, sometimes those things really aren't state requirements. It's something that somebody put into place years ago that everybody just thought was what was required. So I think understanding those two things. And then third, I would say understanding what your end game is when you're working with a fiscal and a case management system, and we're looking at just sheer fund accounting and tracking those funds all the way through and then being able to report at the end of that cycle. And so I oftentimes will tell states, if you kind of look at the end game, look at the reporting that's required at the end, it really kind of establishes the things that are necessary along the way in terms of system adaptations, structure, configuration.   Carol: So definitely I'm going to tie you two together when a state is going out and they're looking at doing the RFP, you want to really think about your complete process so that you've got all the right team members in place from the get go, which can't just be the program side of your house. And I remember us doing this back in Minnesota as we were going through the requirements. It's like, what are those fiscal people doing here? They're all important. Like you need all the pieces together, talking through how this system is going to work, how you're going to connect to your statewide accounting system. So that becomes really important. Now, I know I was on a call, I want to say within the last three, four months and we had a state say, yeah, we're thinking about RFP for a new system to go into place January 1st. And Brittny, I want to kick this to you. What is a realistic time frame if somebody is considering a new case management system, is it really possible to do that in, uh, maybe eight months or so or not? What do you think is a good timeline?   Brittny: I think this really depends on several factors as far as a timeline when considering a new case management system, typically it could take up to six months to develop that RFP. And it's really doing some background homework, seeing what's out there, doing a business process analysis and understanding your own business processes. But typically, I'd say depending on agency size, how many years of converted data you're looking at, converting it into the new system. And I know there's federal requirements, but there's also state requirements that are sometimes even longer than the federal ones. And then also if there's any interfaces. So if you have other systems that are connecting to your current case management system, this is going to make a huge difference, because now you've got a lot of different teams having to help out with the specifications and then also test the system. So you've got to think of their timelines as well. And then lastly just that preparedness piece. So how much work did you do up front on the RFP. How much have you analyzed your business processes. And like Sarah had mentioned, are these things that somebody put into place ten years ago, or are these things that are actually a state policy or a federal policy that you're aligning with? I think the typical timeline that I typically see is around 18 to 24 months for the full implementation once you sign in that contract. But again, that could range short or longer depending on that prep work and then that agency size and things like that.   Carol: So eight months is probably a little aggressive.   Brittny: Yeah very, aggressive yeah. But optimistic I like it.   Carol: I love it. So what are some pitfalls that we want to help our listeners avoid as they're kind of tackling this process? And Sarah, I'm going to kick that to you first.   Sarah: First and foremost. And I think the listeners are probably going to see a recurring theme here, as Brittny said, not just taking current system functionality and developing that into a checklist or using that to develop the specifications. I think really sitting down and outlining what are the requirements, what are the things that we're using right now? Where did that come from? And the possibilities going into this process allows a lot of opportunity to think outside the box and think about what are the things that systems currently aren't doing, or things that are requiring a lot more work right now where we could really get creative and do some really cool things. So I think avoiding the pitfall of just not spending that time up front to understand what it is that agencies need, and then also, again, bringing fiscal and program together to understand the requirements from a physical standpoint. A lot of times that is kicked to the finance folks in the House, we're still seeing in a lot of agencies a breakdown or a gap between program and fiscal, and there's a lot of danger and not bringing those two teams together to understand on both sides of the coin, what is it that we need to do? Oftentimes within that space is where a lot of the creative ideas come out and allow greater efficiencies within the agency and more internal controls.   Carol: Very good. Britt, what do you think about pitfalls? What are some things that we could help our folks avoid?   Brittny: Yeah, I once talked to a chief technology officer and he said the two main reasons why usually a case management system implementation fails is because of fiscal and data validation. So hitting those two pieces very hard, making sure that you're not only converting the data into the system, it's almost like that toy where you've got a round circle and you've got to fit it in the round circle. The data conversion doesn't always work like that, and sometimes you're trying to fit that round circle into a square peg. And that's because the way the systems line up. So making sure that you've got individuals on the front end in different roles, looking at that data and then also testing that RSA 911 to make sure things are mapped correctly and going in correctly before you go into production. At one example I've seen of that is significance of disability. And so one system may calculate significance of disability a little bit differently than another system. And even though they've got everything mapped together, doesn't always go hand in hand and can cause some major issues. The fiscal piece, I think Sarah mentioned that quite a bit, but just making sure that you're doing heavy testing and understanding how the system will work, especially when you go into production. Working in a new system, the biggest ones are dealing with authorizations that already have partial payments on it, draft authorizations, pending payments, amending an authorization, and vendor logic. These are all pieces that may be different in that new system. So making sure you're testing every angle and you're prepared for that transition. I think a third suggestion is just my personal preference would be to avoid over customizing the system. So there's a lot of systems out there that are already available in VR agencies. And so if it works for that VR agency, there's a good chance the majority of the processes are going to work for your agency as well. And sometimes those states like to over customize that system just because they want to have what they've always had. But that ends up being sometimes pretty expensive down the road, because then you're paying for additional testing and maintenance of that customization. So I'd be open minded to changing business processes, or see if you could find your business processes met in a different way and achieving that same result.   Carol: Yeah, I like it. I remember when we had our new case management system and it was built. We went in with all our partners, our WIOA partners, and so we had this kind of groovy new system, but it was supposed to meet all these different needs. Well, it gets complicated, but we couldn't forget about our field people because a lot of those folks in the field. So while you're talking to program, you know, a lot of times it's supervisors and different folks are involved. Having those direct field staff, your VR techs and your counselors who are inputting stuff every day and they're like, hey, this weird thing over here, you know, they may not talk techie, but they can explain the stuff that isn't working so well in getting all of those ideas right from them so they can see, hey, they really can help to impact and influence the system is important.   Brittny: Definitely.   Sarah: You know, Carol, along the lines of what Brittny just shared too, I think there's a caution there in terms of customizations that are in existing systems, whether it's an off the shelf system or a homegrown system. We have a number of agencies that have their own in-house systems. Sometimes there are customizations that work for a particular state or might work for a group of states, but it's not applicable to all states. Again, because we go back to those state requirements. And then sometimes when agencies implement that, it causes some compliance issues because of their own local procurement standards. So asking the question, you know, if they're developing those specifications and not just taking everything from what they're doing or is offered to them currently, but really looking at it with a cursory eye to determine, is this something that we need or we even can use because we're seeing period of performance compliance issues from some system functionalities that are in place that worked for other states that aren't necessarily a one size fits all.   Carol: I think one thing I've noticed too, and I just noticed from the periphery, you know, it's really statewide IT systems and the IT groups have been put together. You know, we see that consolidation happening where you may have had your own IT folks that you were dealing with, and now you have a State Department of IT or something. There's some other consolidated area that has put together different processes or requirements. So I think for some folks, if you're used to maybe the old way when you were entering into this process and maybe doing an RFP and you had more control over everything, you may have a little less because you do have now these sort of statewide IT system requirements. And so it's really important to get hooked up with those folks as well, especially for listeners who may have not done this for a while. Maybe, you know, it's been a long minute since you have looked at your case management system, and you were remembering back a decade ago when it was a little easier. You could just do something a little more at the drop of a dime. But I think the benefit that having those statewide IT groups is they have so much experience. And when they're looking at how they really address putting out an RFP and they can have a lot of their expertise to bring to the table to make sure this gets put together really well. You just want to remember that you may have some other things in play that you didn't have a long time ago. Just a thought. Alright, I know Brittny, when we were talking to you, had some ideas on cool stuff and I love cool stuff. Like, you know, if you're doing your case management system, you said, well, gee, don't, don't just recreate the same old thing like you want to put cool things in place. So do you have ideas like new technology or features or things people could include in their request?   Brittny: Yeah, I've seen dashboards where there's visual dashboards and graphs or pie charts that assist the counselor and case management. So seeing how many individuals they've got enrolled in an education program and how many of those individuals have earned an MSG in the last performance year. And this allows them to check those that haven't and reach out to those participants. I've also seen a central print and mail where the state's just actually the agency put a checkbox in there, and they've got an interface with a local company and that company, they hit the checkbox and everything gets bashed up that night for a letter or anything that they want to mail. And there's a mass every night they mail out all these letters. So that way the counselor could be anywhere. They could be at the school, out in the field, anywhere, mail out a letter, and not have to worry about printing something off and stuffing that envelope. I've also seen invoice payment systems. So systems where vendors can apply to be a vendor, they can document what services agree to terms, things like that. The agency can review them and approve them in there. And then that system can work back and forth with authorizations and payments. So an authorization could be drafted in the case management system could shoot over to this invoice payment system. That vendor can view it, upload documents, invoice against it, put reports and things like that in there, and they can communicate back and forth to one another. I've also seen states exploring various ways to integrate artificial intelligence and case management systems. So I know you did a podcast on one that was kind of outside the case management system, but I'm hearing a lot of states be interested in how to integrate it in the case management system, whether it's in case notes or informed decisions across. So I'm really excited to see what states come up with and how they're able to integrate that within. But I think that's a great idea.   Carol: I love that whole area of artificial intelligence. It was super fun when we did the podcast with Washington General, because they had that really cool piece that was, you know, an add on. It was kind of outside of the system. But boy, the staff love it. But there's a lot of possibilities. I know we were kicking around on the team about ways you could use AI within VR. I mean, when you think about the development of plans, even the way you speak about things, to make it more plain language, and I still I think people are so freaked out a little bit about AI and you go, gosh, it's all over. You know, it is in our whole world. It's when you're talking to Siri or Alexa, you know, every day you go to the airport and you're getting your eyes scanned to get through, Clear whatever you may do. It's just integrated into everything we do. I think that is a really fun, developing new area that has a lot of possibility for the case management systems. Sarah, did you have any ideas too, about any cool possible groovy tools? Maybe fiscally related? I didn't mean to put you on the spot.   Sarah: No, that's okay. We haven't seen as much innovation on the fiscal side, although I think that there are a lot of opportunities. I think, again, in the AI world, I think mapping that out, looking for the possibilities, it goes back to what I said earlier, just being an innovative thinker and looking at what are the challenges and efficiencies that we're battling and what are some of those possibilities that we can use to address that. Staff recruitment retention continues to be a challenge in our VR world and especially in the fiscal arena. And as staff look to bolster their internal controls and the program at large, looking for some of those opportunities. So I don't know that I have as many cool things like Brittny shares, but I'm hoping that we'll see those on the horizon.   Carol: Yeah, me too. I think there's a lot of possibility out there now. I know Sarah, you had developed a tool that coincided with the 2023 spring CSV conference because a lot of folks were asking like, okay, what do I do with my case management system and the fiscal requirements and all of that? Can you talk a little bit about that? Because even though we felt like we widely publicized it, people are still like what? There was a tool. I don't know anything about it.   Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm still excited about it. So we developed a fiscal technology checklist for case services last year in conjunction with the period of performance training that we offered at the conference. And we found that in our technical assistance to state VR agencies around this topic, there's a gap in communication between either the CMS companies and VR, or even if an agency has their own internal program, a gap in communication between the program and fiscal and whoever those IT experts are. So we took that opportunity to map out all of the areas to consider. And so when we're working with agencies under the VRTAC-QM to analyze their processes and look at how their systems are set up, there's a linear fashion and way of looking at that. For instance, is the system set up on a state fiscal year or a federal fiscal year? There's a lot of agencies that have a system set up on a state year that really doesn't make sense for reporting, and it's causing a lot of challenges on the financial side with producing reports for the RSA 17, for example. And they thought that that's the way they had to have it set up. There's very few states that have very state specific requirements that would necessitate that. So it's not that it never would work, but it involves sort of a deep dive into why do we have our systems set up and is that necessary? The other big piece are the budgets. How are budgets set up within the system? Does it map out to the available fund sources that are available to the agency? And then there's a ton of bells and whistles that act as internal controls in the back of a case management system that really dictate how the system behaves and helps the agency navigate through period of performance. And so it's going through a whole list of considerations to make sure that the agency is well equipped to manage period of performance, manage those different fund sources and make them able to do that reporting at the end. So it's a really good list. And honestly, as states are struggling with that communication piece, particularly with the companies that they work with or through the process to develop a new case management system, it's a very nice way of considering all of those different elements that need to go into either evaluating the current system or looking at a new system to make sure that it's meeting exactly what their state requires while still taking into account those federal requirements. So we're constantly reverting folks back to that list, and hopefully agencies are taking the time to sit down as a team and combining the program and fiscal staff to walk through that, to make sure that they understand all of those elements. And if they have questions, we have a number of trainings that we offer through the VRTAC-QM to assist with that. We've even had some agencies seek out that training before they start developing those lists for their RFPs, to make sure that they both understand from a physical standpoint what all those requirements are. So anyway, it's Fiscal Technology Checklist for Case Services. It is on our website, I'm sure. Carol, you're probably going to mention that and hint, hint it is available to the public. So I know that there's been some current CMS companies that have gone out and looked at that piece also, so that they can better understand and hopefully fill in the gap for that communication gap exists so that everybody's talking the same language and on the same page.   Carol: Yes, of course, I have to make a shameless plug for our lovely website. So you will go to vRTAC-QM.org and we have a top navigation header. You can go right to resources and everything's listed under the CSAVR Spring 2023 Session Recordings and Materials. And it actually was Session Two is where you can find that checklist. But if you scroll through you can actually listen to Sarah's session recording. And then you can see the checklist there as well, as well as all of our other awesome sessions from the 2023 Spring Conference. Oh, thanks for that. So how about other words of wisdom from you fine ladies? Because I think of you both as just like, oh my gosh, such powerhouses in the case management system. Brittny, I'm going to go to you first.   Brittny: I've got a few. I think the first one is to be curious. Your agency may have a process that you're unsure why it exists. Some may say that's how it's always been. So I think it's good to be curious, figure out the reason behind it, and see if there's a way that you can streamline those processes. I would also allocate staff specifically for this project, and I think we mentioned it already a little bit earlier. But looking at those projects subject matter experts and making sure you've got the right people at the table. So this is going to be administration, IT, but also your fiscal people, your front end people. It's really important to make sure that you have some direct service or direct field staff that are knowledgeable and have a long agency history that you can integrate into that project as well, and they can provide feedback. I would also have a designated project manager that could be somebody. You within your department, or that could be somebody that you decide to contract out. But I think it's important that they have that project management experience because it is a giant project, and it is going to take quite some time to get from that RFP contract to implementation. I'd also weave in changes as much as you can. So during the project, you'll start to have the opportunity to see the differences between the two systems, your current one and your new system. And so if there's any way that you can weave in changes early and often, this will help that transition for staff much, much easier. And then also as you're preparing or updating revising business processes, that also helps with that piece of it. I've seen states do statewide quarterly demos to kind of show staff the new system and help them kind of process that change along the way. And lastly, I would definitely emphasize not to overlook accessibility. I'd pull in your accessibility users early to begin testing the system, and then also integrating those accessibility terms into training documents. I think one thing I learned is that using language accessibility language is huge. I couldn't imagine trying to learn a new system and somebody saying, use a dropdown box. But yet my system is calling it a combo box. So using that terminology and making this transition much easier for all staff.   Carol: Awesome points. I want to highlight a couple, that be curious. I can't emphasize that enough. There are so many agencies where I'm going to call it urban Legend. You're doing something because everybody always says, RSA said. You have to do that and RSA will come out. I've been in monitoring. They're like, we never told you that. Whatever that is in your system, you made that up like you made that happen. So I love that being curious because you want to ask questions. A lot of times you just go with the flow. You know, somebody put it in play 20 years ago and then you just keep bringing it forward. So I love that. And definitely when you talk about dedicating staff, you want to make sure you dedicate those staff, but you also want to think about all of the other roles that have been assigned to that person. You cannot put them as the project manager of this whole project, and they're still maintaining all their field services duties and doing all the other stuff, because this really is a full time job. And I know I'm going to apologize right here to Natasha Jerde. We had her as a project manager for our new case management system. At the same time, she's, you know, rewriting our policy and procedure manual and doing a million other things because I just had zero clue at how much went into this. And that was really it's really terrible. And I've actually seen some of the staff across the country burn out. We've had people retire early. They're like the case management system process killed me. So when you're dedicating staff, please do give them some time to do it. And don't expect that they're not going to work an 80 hour workweek because that is not so fabulous. But I loved your points, Brittny, those are great. How about you, Sarah? Any words of wisdom?   Sarah: Yes, thank you. I think we constantly hear from state agencies about silos. How do we break down silos? And this process really can be a nice segue to combining program and fiscal together. I know we've said that multiple times in our discussion today, but I don't think we can say it enough. This process really is an opportunity to develop relationships and I know even from the agency that I came from, the introduction that I had to the program side was through a new case management system conversion. And at first I showed up at the table. And Carol, like you said earlier, people were like, who invited her? Why is she here? Does she need to be here? People wouldn't talk and share ideas. And then as we both committed to developing that relationship and understanding one another better, not only did we end up with a quality product, but we had quality services, we had better management and leadership within the agency. So looking at it as an opportunity sort of through that lens, engage the folks in the field as well. Sometimes as leaders, we tackle these types of projects and we think the folks in the field are too busy. And really the best ideas can come from our counselors and those individuals who are supporting in those roles our field staff, our fiscal agents. And I know we have a separate training on that that we offer VR agencies, but engaging them in that process and getting their ideas on, hey, what's working and what's not working? What are the challenges that you're facing so that as you are curious to Brittny's point, you're taking into consideration maybe some of those wins that you can secure on the other side and maybe cut out some process or things while still meeting those requirements and engaging in those efficiencies. The other thing I would offer, and we're having lots of discussions now about fiscal forecasting and spending strategies within VR agencies, as VR agencies are getting over the hump of Covid and taking a look at what their spending looks like, the case management system really is a system of record. And as we look at the statewide accounting system and in its function, we can't ignore the case management system and the role that it plays in navigating through all those fiscal requirements. And so if we think about the CMS sort of as the VR checkbook, and when we are authorizing for services and obligating funds, not only are there requirements around how to do that and how to capture that, looking at the individual sources of funds that we have available, it really is a way to capture those obligations within a checkbook so that we can take a look at any point in time from a leadership standpoint, what is our financial position? And so being able to look at how much do I have in my 23 carryover checkbook and how much do I have in 24. And plan ahead so that I can make decisions around re-allotment and I can think ahead so that we're not leaving funds on the table and lapsing funds at the back end of our of our award. It really is important that we look at how we capture all of that in the case management system in a way that allows us to continue managing our programs with a strong fiscal focus. So tying all of that in is also important at a higher level, so that we can use the data to make quality financial decisions.   Carol: Well said, well said. So in case our listeners want to get a hold of either of you, would you mind sharing your email address, Brittny?   Brittny: Yes, definitely. My email address is bMacIver So m a c I v e r@sdsu.edu. It's also available on our VRTAC website. If you go to our staff you'll see my email address there as well.   Carol: Excellent. Sarah, how about you.   Sarah: Yes thank you. It's sClardy. so, that's s c l a r d y at Sdsu.Edu.   Carol: Thanks so much I appreciate you both joining me today. Have a great one, you guys.   Brittny: Thanks.   Sarah: Thank you.   {Music}   Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

In this new episode, Jayne Warrilow joins us to talk about the essential role of trust in humane marketing and business. We explore why self-trust is the foundation of all other forms of trust, especially for entrepreneurs navigating challenging times. Jayne shares insights on how trust shapes a business's reputation and client relationships, offering practical steps to enhance trustworthiness. We also discuss the journey of becoming a trusted authority in your field, and how confidence and courage play crucial roles in this transformation. Join us to discover how making trust your competitive advantage can elevate your business in the world of compassionate entrepreneurship. In this conversation they talked about: What trust has to do with Humane Marketing and Humane Business Why self-trust is the foundation of all other forms of trust in business and how entrepreneurs can build and maintain self-trust, especially in challenging times How trust influences a business's reputation and client relationships, and what measures businesses can take to ensure they are seen as trustworthy How entrepreneurs can discover and embrace their calling to become a trusted authority in their field How confidence and courage influence the perception of authority and trustworthiness, and what strategies entrepreneurs can use to build confidence in their industry A sneak peek of what Jayne will cover in our Collab workshop on July 3rd --- Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi Jane, it's wonderful to be with you again today. Jayne: Oh, Sarah. It's such an honor to be with you. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. Sarah: Yeah, me too, because trust. Oh my God, we could talk about this for like hours and hours, right? So such an important topic. And I think specifically for you and I, I've known each other for a long time. And we're very much value aligned and wanting to create businesses for the long term and helping our clients create their life's work and businesses for the long term. So yeah, trust just seems this kind of, I have to admit for me, it was kind of just this like given it's like, yeah, obviously that's part of the thing, but people do wonder. You know, how do you create trust and so that's why you and I talked and I'm like, yeah, it'd be great if you could come in and talk to us about that, because you have spent [00:01:00] a lot of time thinking about that deeply and came up with frameworks and and you'll share some of that with us. And I'm super excited. But let's start with kind of the foundational question. Like, why do we need to trust when we want to create a business and also maybe what does that have to do with creating a sacred business like you call it or a humane business like I call it? Yeah. Jayne: It's a really interesting question because just like you said at the beginning, Sarah, I think so many of us Take trust as a given, you know, if we're a good human in the world, you know, we're taught from a very young age to be kind and, you know, be kind to our neighbors and, you know, treat other people as we'd like to be treated ourselves. And most of us go out into the world with that kind of energy. And that I've used that word energy very specifically here, because in a way, trust is invisible. It's not something that's [00:02:00] tangible that you can see that you can, you know, Have on your business dashboard and measure necessarily how you're doing. There's data that points to it for us, but really it's such a, there's layers to trust, you know, and and what it really means for us. For me, what I've learned over the many years that I've been working with business and leaders is it's actually the foundation of everything. And it's not just the foundation of business because more and more as I get older, Like life and business are integrating together in a way. And it's so interesting, you know, like there's many of us that will have been to business school and we've learned leadership theories. We've learned business theories. We've learned what it takes to be successful in business today. But one of the things that I noticed in my reflections is I look back at like my time in business school. Nobody ever taught me to be kind. Or compassionate or the things that actually [00:03:00] come about building trust in the world. And at the end of the day, I think somewhere along the way, we've, we've somehow forgotten the fact that business is deeply relational it's about. Humans. Yes. It's also about technology today. So when I talk about relationships, it's not just about relationships between people, which of course you need, you need really good, solid, foundational relationships to make, you know, to be successful as both a leader and in, in your business. But also it's about kind of the relationship with technology. Okay. Your relationship with your business, your relationship with yourself, trust comes across all these different layers, which is what we're going to be diving into. Because once we start to pull it apart and, you know, I have a number of frameworks I've developed, it. It kind of, you look at the frameworks and you go, Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense. But somehow along the way, we forgotten [00:04:00] to really look at what it takes to actually create trust. And I think that's probably why we're all now doing business and leadership in a context where trust is at the lowest level it's ever been because we've neglected it. Sarah: Yeah. So good. Yeah. And it feels like we can immediately finger point at people or businesses where we don't feel that there's trust, right? But it's much harder to figure out, well, what are the things that create trust? Because like you said, it's kind of the invisible and it's just kind of like this energy that you either feel or you don't feel. And when you don't feel it, you're like, yep. It's because they're doing that. And in the humane marketing kind of realm, it would be the marketing that creates distrust, right? But, but there's so many other things besides marketing. And you mentioned this relationship to self [00:05:00] but also to your business and technology. Yeah. So let's maybe start with the self because that feels like a good starting point, because. Yeah, I feel like as business owners, that's where, you know, if you don't have trust in yourself, it's very hard to, to kind of give that to others. So, right. That's really Jayne: true. And, and I think, you know working in organizational life for many years, you know, seeing leaders talking about business as though it's out here. So when we think about trust, you know, very often in a business context, we think about, okay, how can we build trust, like from the business to our audience, for example, but in a lot of businesses that my audience, and I think probably yours as well, need to think about is, you know, how do we show up in, in our life? Right. And our business, because I think it was John Kabat Zinn that says, wherever you go, there you are. So you're not going [00:06:00] to be completely different in business than what you are in life. And, and really this, this external view of, you know, I can make my business success by doing things out here. It's kind of becoming an outdated notion today because the marketplace is demanding so much more of us. And the first thing that I want to speak to is this idea of trusted authority, which to me, I think you can't be successful in business today, unless you can build both trust and authority and authority doesn't come until you have trust in the first instance. So it begins. It's like, you know, just very simple questions. Like, do you trust yourself? And when I ask that of say clients or people that I meet, they'll, they'll stop and they'll think, and they'll, they'll, they'll come back with, well, there's some areas where I do, and then potentially there's some areas where. And maybe not so much. And so it's then that inner work of [00:07:00] really understanding yourself at a deeper level and understanding things, just very simple things. You know, this isn't new. It's like, what do you need? In any situation, for example, to feel confident in a situation, what do you need? And also, what do you want? How do you want to show up to your life, to your business, to your relationships? Who do you want to be and who do you want to become? Because what I'm really speaking to here is something I call your personal energetics or your personal resonance. Now. What do I mean by the word resonance? I just mean the relationship, the quality of connection that you form with yourself in this, in this inner space. Like, what is that quality of connection? Do you know yourself? Do you trust yourself? And in what situations do you trust yourself? And in what situations don't you? Now it's really interesting because what the research is showing [00:08:00] that Other people, other people know when you show up and you don't trust yourself because we all read energy. I mean, we don't talk about this all the time, but before anybody opens their mouth, right? We have a sense of who they're being and how they're feeling. Particularly as females, women particularly read emotional energy. And so really understanding that at a different level, you know, can really kind of accelerate the, what it is that you want out of any relationship. Whilst also enabling the other person to get that. So we're not just talking about you coming in here with a me, me, me energy. It's actually the beginning of the win win the me to we journey of how do I be in relationship with others? Well, I've got to learn how to trust myself and be in relationship with myself first so that I can inspire trust from others because if I don't trust me, nobody else is going to trust me [00:09:00] either. Sarah: Yeah, we're always so aligned in our thinking, right? The way I think about this recently, I, I started to think, well, we're talking about company cultures, right? This idea of cultures. And I'm like, well, as entrepreneurs, we need to start thinking about that. Think of it as, as personal cultures, what's the culture, you know, your personal culture within your one person business. And that's exactly what you were talking about is this resonance. How do you feel Because, yeah, that reflects on other people then, and then that's where this resonance comes in, right? And people seeing how you feel. And I love how you made that transitional. So from the me to the we so yeah, clearly it's like, it's not just you and your business, it's you in relationship with. You know, clients, [00:10:00] other people one point you also made was this idea of the authority. And so that I feel like a lot of people are kind of scared already of that word. It's, you know, it feels kind of maybe a bit heavy, maybe even a bit. Kind of like past paradigm, you know, so tell us more about this this idea of authority for me. Also, what comes up what I like more is the word courage because you and I both work with change makers. And so I feel like having this. Working on themselves, this inner work, this self confidence it leads to more courage and that's really what you need to kind of show up as, you know, more of an authority, but I'm curious to, to hear from you what you think about authority and courage and all of these things. Jayne: Yeah. And I love the word courage because of course it comes from the [00:11:00] French, you know, that the courage of it's the heart opening at the end of the day. Interestingly, as you were speaking there, I was thinking, I don't actually use the word authority without the word trust. And why? Right. Because I think you're right. I think authority in a way is the old paradigm because it's got a very masculine energy with it. It does, doesn't it? No, it's kind of got a bit of a push energy and a bit of a, let me blow out my chest and show how good I am. Right. Right. And so this masculine energy comes forward with the word authority, but if you put the word power, Trust with it. Trust is a very feminine kind of feeling kind of energy. And one of the things I learned over, you know, over the years, working with so many different coaches and consultants and also leaders and global leaders and C level leaders is this, this idea that a lot of my work with these individuals, particularly in coaching, has really been around. And if I say these two words, people will get it straight away. Owning. Owning it, [00:12:00] whatever the it is for you. It's not just learning that you have a message, but that you are a message. Right. And so when I look at the word trust and authority together, it's the integration for me of the masculine and the feminine, because. It's like, if you only, if you only operate through a feminine energy in today's market, you're not going to get enough done. There's not going to be enough structures in place to actually attract the people. Life's going to be hard because yeah, you're going to be working as an individual. Maybe you're a solopreneur, but you'll still be trading time for money because you won't have learned how to build the, the structures in the business that can start to take the pressure off your back. Right. And so it's this combination of. Trust, or like you said, courage, courage for me is one of the things that I talk about in different levels of consciousness. I'm kind of going off piece a little bit, but different levels of consciousness is the energy of the heart. [00:13:00] So for your audience, if you know, you're listening and you're not familiar with my work, right? So if you just think about the chakra system, The lower levels of energy are connected to the higher levels of energy through the hearts, right? Through courage. And so authority is really built off of trust, which is the foundation of it. But the old style authority. Didn't really have trust in there. It was just like, let me just shout as loud as I can to everybody who'll listen about how amazing I am. And maybe some of it will stick, but in today's market, it's much quieter than that. And the reason it's built on trust is because you're not the one giving. Being your self authority, like in the old days, it's other people that will then say, you know, I trust you and I trust your authority in this space. And for you to be that person, you need to have done your own [00:14:00] inner work. Now, what does that mean? When I look out into the world, and this is quite a triggering statement for some people, I feel that we have a lot of issues in our leadership. And one of those issues is there's many, many leaders that are leading from what I would. Term as unhealed stories. So they've had trauma, maybe in their childhood, maybe in their adult life. You know, we've all had trauma, but they've not done the inner work. They've not done their own work to actually kind of heal that. So they go into work and life and business. And what they're doing is they're projecting these. This trauma, these unhealed stories onto other people in not, they're not aware of it at all, but it also causes more aggression, lack of care, lack of compassion in the workplace because somebody's unaware. They're not. Conscious really of what they're doing and their impact on [00:15:00] others. And so really this is where trust all begins is, are you prepared to do the work to earn trust? Because we all know trust isn't, and we all know from our own experiences, trust can be lost very quickly. And then it's harder, you know, you really do have to do some work to bring it back. So really understanding. Not only the foundations of trust, but the different elements that build trust generically, because it's been a lot of research done in this space. Once you understand that, it's easier to be aware if you're ever breaking trust inadvertently with somebody else, you can do things that actually bring it back before it kind of falls down the abyss. But also you can trust yourself and show up as a trustworthy individual. And that's a very attractive energy in this marketplace today, just in life. Because we don't meet that many people who've done their own inner work, who trust themselves and then show up [00:16:00] with trust because they own their message. They don't just have a message. You know, they own the message. They know their life. Is making a difference, not just their business. Sarah: And I Jayne: think embodying what matters most in today's marketplace is probably the most important advice I could give anyone. Sarah: Yeah, so much good stuff in there. I always want to like take notes for yeah, where, where can I. I don't want to add anything. It was just perfect. So, so let me just go in another direction because I, I think in one of the frameworks, I saw that you also talk about collaboration and maybe you hinted at it a little bit just prior how, oh, yeah, you mentioned it because you're saying, well, trust needs to be earned. And the old paradigm was kind of like, well, I just show up as an authority where actually you know, the other [00:17:00] people make you an authority. You don't even call yourself an authority. Right. And so how does this all have to do with collaboration? Because it's not just me trusting myself. Yes, we saw that was a big deal and that's where it all starts. But then how do we. not use, but collaborate with other people to increase maybe that trust and maybe also the authority what have you seen in your work? Jayne: Well, you see, as soon as you mentioned that I went straight into power dynamics in my head, because. You know, we've lived for so many years with positional leadership in organizational life. And even in small businesses, you know, there's the founder, the CEO, and, you know, maybe an admin assistant underneath. So what it, what happens when you do your own inner work is you start to realize and kind of have compassion for other people. And I don't know, this is [00:18:00] certainly true for me. The more I learn about what's on the inside here, the more I realize there's a bit of a crowd, but also. That I'm no better, really, or worse than anybody else. So it's almost like a humility comes into the way I feel. And I also realize that everybody that I meet has something that they can teach me. What do I mean about the power dynamics and trust? Well, What it does for me is it shifts my belief system about who I think I am and who I think I'm being, which then in a relationship with somebody else, or if I'm collaborating with, what I'm doing is I'm really partnering. I'm having the energy of not power over or power under, I'm in the power with. space. So when I'm in that space now, it's shared power, right? So it is collaborative because I'm listening as much to the person that I'm in relationship [00:19:00] with as much as I'm like speaking from my own perspective, but we're in true dialogue now. Every, whenever I say dialogue to people, everybody thinks that this is something we do every day, all the time, but it's not. I'll just say to anybody who's listening, just go out into life, sit in Starbucks and listen to the people behind you on a table. I can guarantee they won't be in true dialogue. Why? Because it's almost like we've forgotten this power with, we've forgotten how to be with each other in some ways. And if you listen, I can more or less guarantee what you're going to hear is what I would call two parallel conversations, whereas somebody is just waiting for the other person to finish so they can say the next thing they want to say, and the other person's waiting so they can say it. Speak and say what they want to say, but there's no real collaboration, even in a communication that's happening. [00:20:00] And again, this is why we've lost trust. You see, so this is also, there's so many different layers to trust from power, how we're showing up to the belief space to have we, do we trust ourselves? We've got our own, like. Have we healed our own stories so that we can actually be in the world in conscious and intentional ways? Because that's the beginning of humane marketing, because if we're not being human and we're acting like machines, then, well, we're pushing because we feel less than on the inside. So we feel we've got to get our stuff out because people need to hear what we've got to say. That's a very different energy then. Hey, yeah, I'm here and I'm ready to help, right? I'm ready to help you. And one of my mentors used to say to me, you know, like we talk a lot, don't we? In marketing about let's get a funnel. Let's get a lead magnet. Let's do this. Let's get it all in place. Right. Content marketing. And what one of my mentors, [00:21:00] one of my early mentors here in the States said to me, Jane, at the beginning of a relationship with anybody, Just help them, just help them, right? Don't keep proving that you can help them. Don't keep telling them you can help them, just help them. And when I think about trust, right, if I think about it from my own perspective, one of the first things when I'm in a new relationship, whether it's a business, professional relationship, or whether it's just a personal one is this idea of don't let me down. This is what research shows. The first thing that comes into our head is, are you someone I can trust? Don't let me down here. Whatever it is, don't let me down. So that's the first thing you, you need to prove is that you're someone who cares and that you're not going to let them down. You've got their back, right? It's simple. Sarah: It, it, it, I love this word, humility that you used and what comes up right now for me also when you said, don't let me down [00:22:00] is the word integrity. So kind of like walk your talk, follow through, do what you say, you're, you know, do what Said you were going to do all of these things. Like that's, it's these small little things that people notice. Kind of like the credit system from Stephen Covey, where he's like, well, you know, you, people, Don't pay attention, but they actually accumulate credits like if you do good things the other person will kind of have a credit count and every time they, you know, you do something that is like, not in integrity or not trustworthy. Well, you lose credits, right? And you it's very, very hard to then regain these credits once you are like, under zero. So. So yeah, just kind of like paying attention to, to the unspoken, to the invisible, like you mentioned, it's so, [00:23:00] so key in, in trust and authority building. And I feel like what you mentioned also about collaboration and partnership. It's, it's really this new paradigm, right? It's not about you building your own authority, but partnering with others on the same level that creates authority for both partners. I feel like that's the way we both, we all rise together. Right. It's not like I rise by abusing the people under me. It's like we all rise. And I just, I just love that way of thinking about business and marketing and building trust. So, yeah. Jayne: Yeah, it's so important. And you used a word there, Sarah, which is so important in business for me, which is the word integration, because even though I've talked about, you know, do you trust yourself? So this idea of personal trust and personal [00:24:00] resonance, then moving that out into like what I would call then social resonance or relationship. Like that inspires when you trust yourself, it's then how do you show up in the world that enables others to trust you? But this space of integration for me, like the crucible of that is in your business, Sarah: because Jayne: that's the space of being and doing, because we want you to embody the message that you have. We want you to lead from this integrated space. And we want you to bake this in to your business so that, for example, all of your team, like if you have assistants or whatever, anybody who's representing your business understands how they're going to go about building trust, because actually we can build trust through technology too today, but we can't do that if the, we can't do it in human ways. Unless those first [00:25:00] two, the personal and the social are in place. And if you think about this from, you know, like the, the, the work that leaders have been through, like there's emotional intelligence, which you could argue is a good piece of self trust. Then the social intelligence, which you can argue is a good piece of the relationship trust. And these two things are so important in business today. Why? Because the market's changing and we're going beyond the transactions in business now. So it's not just, will you do what you say you will do when you say you will do it? That's kind of the baseline now, but now people are looking for. Purpose. They're looking for meaning. They're looking for you. Are you a force for good in the world as one individual human living in the world? Are you a force for good in the way you're living your life? Or are you part of the problem? Right. And then that of course, ripples out into your relationships, ripples out into your business. [00:26:00] So, you know, one thing that I always say is a business that doesn't resonate. Can never be successful, just like a person that doesn't resonate can never be successful. And you can't resonate unless you can build trust. Sarah: Yeah. You can't build trust unless you do the inner work and the workshop with Jane. To tell us a bit more about the workshop that you're gonna yeah, Jayne: share with us. Yeah, well, I'm really excited cause I have a number of frameworks. And one of the things that I love is, is putting the, I'm very visual. So putting things into a visual framework really helps me to kind of understand. And there's a lot underneath these frameworks and I've got, I think, three or four that I'm going to be sharing. And, and the first one is looking in a way, looking at the context. It's looking at how is the market changing in terms of trust and what [00:27:00] are, and what are our customers like asking for? What are, what's the invitation that they're giving us right now in terms of the way that we show up to do business. Right. So that's kind of the first one. And then we're going to see. So we're going to start looking at this integration of the self and the relationships and the business. And what does it mean to truly integrate the being and doing in business? And we're also going to look at the five key elements of trust, of building trust in depth so that we can understand what they are, because of course, they work in the individual space, they work in the relationship space, and they also work in the business space. Because the ideal here is. It's not just you as a human being very trustworthy as an individual, and then building relationships that are trustworthy. That's a key part, but also building the trust into your business, baking it in into all of your kind of. Processes, your structures, your systems, even if they're run through [00:28:00] technology, that they still got your voice, they've still got your energy baked in at the very core. So we're going to be looking at what these things mean and how to actually practically implement this in your business, because trust can feel like something that's floating around up here. But we actually want to bring that energy down so that, you know, it makes a difference in your daily reality. So that's, I love Sarah: that so much and I love that you making it practical, right? It's like, while I love big concepts and you and I could talk about these things, hours and hours, but at the end of the day, what the entrepreneurs want is like, okay, I get that, but how do I bring that down into my business, into my systems? And I love that you talk about technology as well, because there is kind of this. You know, resistance to. Maybe using technology or seeing it as like this bad thing from the [00:29:00] past paradigm, but I'm very much about saying, no, no, no, we use the technology, but we just need to infuse it with the new paradigm. Recipe, you know, it's like, yeah, we, we can use both. And it seems like that's exactly what you're going to be sharing with us. So not wait, it's going to be amazing. So please people, if you listen to this and you want more of Jane and building trust and courage and all of that good stuff have a look at humane. marketing forward slash. workshop and join us on July 3rd because it's going to be amazing. And you, I think. It could, it could feel like this is just a nice to have for business, but don't get that wrong. It is a must have for the new business paradigm. We are going to be inundated with anything AI, right? And I just talked about the [00:30:00] positive things of AI, which I do a hundred percent believe in. But the other side, the dark side of AI is all the. You know, the generic stuff that we're going to be inundated with, and so that's why we need to work on the foundation and the trust building and all of that so that even in the technology, people can tell this is trustworthy and this is not, you know, so yeah, I can't wait. Jane, anything you want to add about the, the workshop or anything else? Jayne: I just want to say, I completely agree with what you're talking about with AI because at the moment, I mean, I can't necessarily talk about the future so much in the long term, but at the moment right now, this is a distinct advantage because you're absolutely right, Sarah. AI is. Causing us to reflect back on ourself to what does it mean to be human and be human as a leader and human in business. So that, this is why your brand and humane [00:31:00] marketing, I know the work that you do is so very important because if we can't claim and there's right now, there's no shared definition of what it means to be human. So if we can't claim. Ourselves and our energy and what it means to be human. How on earth are we going to keep up with AI coming in? So the, this sounds, you know, like it sounds fundamental in many ways because it is, but it's also right now, what I want you to know is, My clients that are doing this in the marketplace right now, this is a competitive advantage because it's what the market is asking for and the market is in some ways slower to move with the large corporations than we are when we're entrepreneurial and we can pivot on a dime. So it's a real competitive advantage right now. And people are yearning for the humanity back in business. So let's just give it to them. Sarah: Yes. Let's [00:32:00] do it. Can't wait, Jane. Really. I very much look forward to this and thanks so much for being on the podcast and let's just say to be continued. Yeah. Jayne: I love it. Sarah: Thank you, Sarah.  

Beverly M. Collins is an artist, photographer, and author of a couple of books, and today we're talking about the subject of shyness, which many people suffer from.  Beverly M. Collins is an artist, photographer, and author of a couple of books, and today we're talking about the subject of shyness, which many people suffer from.  Shyness can prevent us from reaching our full potential and enjoying social activities. Many people who are shy, hide or struggle with feeling isolated. Being shy may feel like a constant battle between wanting to connect with other people, and an overwhelming fear of rejection. Read more here: focusyourtime.com/shyness/. If you didn't listen to her first episode, visit podcast 108, the Journey Within. You can find Beverly here: beverlym-collins.pixels.com  Instagram  Facebook  @BeverlyMCollins on X (formerly Twitter)  Nature Art Prints by Beverly M CollinsCalifornia Poetry Society Then & Now: Conversations with Old Friends: Thursday, Sarah ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Thank you for joining me on this personal growth journey! 

Send us a Text Message.Ever wondered how a background in environmental science can pave the way to a successful career in dietetics? Join us on this episode of the Simple Nutrition Insights Podcast where we sit down with Sarah Bush, a registered dietitian whose eclectic journey has taken her from public health to outpatient therapy, and now to Brooksoap Nutrition. Sarah shares her expertise on sustainable fat loss and reverse dieting while emphasizing the versatility and diverse career opportunities available for dietitians. Learn how tracking your food can be a game-changer for weight management and overall health as Sarah provides invaluable insights into tailored dietary advice.Unlock the secrets to optimizing your metabolism for sustainable weight loss with Sarah as we discuss common misconceptions around calorie reduction and the crucial role of consistent fueling to keep your metabolic fire burning bright. Discover why extremely low-calorie diets are unsustainable and how gradual changes can make a lasting impact on your health. We also explore the influence of weekend eating habits on weight loss progress and the importance of tracking food intake to maintain awareness and consistency. Streamline your meal tracking routine with practical tips from Sarah on using apps like MyFitnessPal and PracticeBetter. From saving meals and using the copy-paste function to pre-tracking meals and batch cooking, Sarah breaks down strategies that save time and enhance dietary habits. Plus, don't miss our conversation about "Tasty Tuesday" from Busy Babe Nutrition, where we review new food items and share client-suggested products for taste and nutritional value. Tune in for honest insights, meal timing tips, and strategies to avoid wasting money on subpar products, all designed to help you achieve your health goals.Sarah's IGBrooke Sobh Nutrition to work with Sarah Thank you for listening. Please subscribe to this podcast and share with a friend. If you would like to know more about my services, please message at fueledbyleo@gmail.comMy YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0SqBP44jMNYSzlcJjOKJdg

Bareeq Barqawi, DEI talent development analyst at Reed Smith, is joined by Sarah Hassaine, head of global diversity and inclusion at ResMed, to explore Sarah's remarkable journey and groundbreaking work in the field of diversity and inclusion advocacy. As April marks National Arab American Heritage Month, Sarah shares personal insights on how her cultural background has shaped her approach to fostering inclusion both personally and professionally. From championing health equity to addressing gender disparities and advocating for marginalized communities, Sarah offers practical strategies and invaluable advice for individuals and organizations seeking to drive positive change in their spheres of influence. Listen to this episode to gain valuable insights into the transformative power of inclusive leadership. ----more---- Transcript: Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.  Bareeq: Welcome to Inclusivity Included, the Reed Smith DEI podcast. I'm your host Bareeq Barqawi today. In honor of April being Arab American Heritage Month, we have the privilege of speaking with Sarah Hassaine, the head of global diversity and inclusion at ResMed and a trailblazer in the realm of diversity and inclusion advocacy. Before we delve into our discussion, I'd like to introduce our esteemed guests to our listeners. Sarah has is a dynamic leader with a decade long track record in driving global diversity and inclusion initiatives. Currently leading a global team at ResMed, she consults, advises, and upskills leaders worldwide, designs and delivers in-house D&I trainings and evaluates policies to drive inclusion. Notable achievements include expanding Resmed's ERGs or employee resource groups from 4 to 17, increasing self ID percentages by 4% and spearheading initiatives to improve representation and advocate for accessibility. Sarah brings over 20 years of management experience with a focus on HR initiatives recognized as San Diego businesswoman of the year in 2022. She holds an MBA from Wharton Business School and outside of work, she enjoys traveling, speaking three languages and finds relaxation in sunny beach days with a good book. Today, she joins us to share her insights and experiences. Sarah, welcome to the podcast.  Sarah: Thank you. It's so good to be here. Thanks for having me.  Bareeq: Of course. I'm going to dive right in for the sake of time. Sarah as an Arab American, how has your cultural background influenced your approach to diversity and inclusion advocacy, both personally and professionally?  Sarah: Yeah, And I'm really excited and happy that we're talking about the Arab American identity. Growing up, you're, you were othered as Arab Americans. So it has helped me across my career because the beautiful thing about being an inclusion and diversity leader is that you're navigating a lot of conversations around people feeling othered, and it's any category, right? Whether it's a parent, a caregiver, a veteran, a reservist, a lot of us experience that and as an Arab American, our identity is not accounted for, right? We're, you know, we're in the Census in the US, we're accounted for as white, but we're not treated as white. Oftentimes, our names are misspelled. Uh We get a lot of questions, small microaggressions, A lot of stereotypes get cast. And as someone who grew up, you know, an American grew up in this country, uh it is very hard to constantly feel like, oh, well, you know, you guys do this or you're, you're being othered all the time. So that has definitely helped with empathy and helping me understand the communities I work with and being able to relate and show that kind of validation to, to everyone else.  Bareeq: Wonderful. As an Arab American myself, I can, I can only relate to it because I, I always say when people ask why we got into this line of work, I say, well, being excluded, majority of my life has, has uh made me want to have others avoid this feeling um and be as inclusive as we possibly can be. So, thank you for that. So can you share actually a specific moment or experience that was pivotal in your transition into the realm of inclusion and diversity advocacy?  Sarah: Yeah. So I was supporting a recruiting team uh in a past life at a, a large company. And what we started seeing organically, right was that we got less female applicants, we got less women engaging with us at conference booths and we really didn't have any women on the team. And it started kind of, you know, being this issue that the hiring managers, like we, you know, we're seeing other women going to other companies, but they're not coming here. And why is that? And we had to look inward and understand that our marketing material, the language, we, we were interviewing, we would, you know, candidates, but they would be meeting with six males and then they meet the team. And so then it wasn't actually feeling like an attractive, safe space or there was no representation. And that's when it hit me that you can be supporting business culture, you can be supporting a business, you know, in many different facets. But if the business doesn't have a culture where employees feel like they can belong, that to me was the crux of what I wanted to do. It just hit me. I'm like, this is what I wanna do. It started with women, but then it became about everybody else and everything else. Um So that was kind of my, my point and that was about 10+ years ago. Uh when I got to start working on commercials and advertisements and conference booths and really thinking about what is inclusive engagement look like. How do you attract talent so that they know that when they come in there's, they're going to have a sense of belonging?  Bareeq: I love that. That's so insightful. I think that's such a great, I guess segue into my next question because, you know, we talk about gender disparity and addressing gender disparities is a crucial aspect of advocacy work. And you often talk about encountering challenges in attracting entertaining women in the workplace. What strategies do you find most effective in addressing such challenges?  Sarah: Yeah, there's a lot of data around how women that are mentored, usually they actually stay, they're more loyal to their companies and they actually have more growth trajectory. I will say mentorship and intentional leadership development programs are really important. The second thing I would also talk about is succession planning. Companies need to really think about, okay, here's our workforce in this department. What are we doing to make sure there's an equitable opportunity for promotion for assessment uh of performance of assigning stretch assignments. And so it needs to be a level playing field for everyone. So in order to really develop, make sure that your female population is having the same access as all other genders, you wanna make sure that you have strong succession planning retention methods like learning and development and mentorship.  Bareeq: Wonderful. Thank you so much for those examples. Actually, in dedication to promoting health equity within ResMed's diversity and inclusion initiatives, can you elaborate on your efforts in this area and how you ensure that health care solutions and services provided by ResMed are accessible and inclusive for diverse communities, including those that are often actually um marginalized and underserved?  Sarah: Yeah, there are a couple of answers I want to dive into for this one. So the first one is really thinking about the diversity in our mask and sleep trials in order for us to really think about a product that, you know, we sell worldwide in over 150 countries. So we wanna make sure that we're designing a mask um that has a rep representation already. So there's been a lot of intentionality around marketing to different communities that they participate in your sleep trials and your mask trials. So it has to start at the base of your product and with your research. We also have an entire department dedicated to medical research. And they have done a great job in terms of looking at the disparities between different populations, whether it's um African American women or Hispanic, like we start looking at a location. Uh So we, we, we address health equity in different ways. So there's the research component, there's the product component and then there's, you know, the fact that our business model is different in every country to your point about underrepresented or underserved communities, really making sure that, you know, our, that providers are telling patients, hey, get sleep tested or have you thought about looking into, you know, maybe going to a storefront? Right. So it depends where we're selling. Uh, it varies. In the United States, we go through HMEs. And so we want to make sure that that our doctors are getting our patients either at home sleep tests or getting them come to come into sleep clinics.  Bareeq: That's great, especially that partnership between the doctors and your organization, um and bringing them into that conversation. Um So I know your work extends beyond the corporate realm into advocacy for marginalized communities. Um Can you share about your involvement with refugee communities, orphans and economic inclusion in the San Diego community specifically?  Sarah: Yeah, you know, the refugee space is something very dear to my heart. When I graduated college, I worked in refugee camps in Lebanon um for different communities, African, Iraqi, Palestinian, Lebanese at the time. And then I went back when the war in Syria was happening in 2016. And I worked for a couple of weeks teaching English. So the first time I did socio-economic assessments to understand what the needs were. The gaps I should say, then I went back and taught English. So the way I look at refugee assistance or assimilation is around empowerment. San Diego has one of the largest refugee communities in the United States. Um We have every community here possible; Burmese, Somali, Kurdish, Syrian, Iraqi, uh Bosnian. And growing up here, I saw the waves of communities come in. And so it was a lot around upskilling, trying to get jobs, trying to get the school, the kids to get, you know, um learn English, get mentors. So I partnered with Teach and Learn Literacy, which was actually an organization through the Arab American Anti Discrimination Committee and uh volunteered twice a week teaching a Syrian family of eight English and helping them get jobs. So I did that for a few years uh now from an economic inclusion lens as I grow in my career, I partner with different nonprofits. Um So there's like the United Women of South of East Africa, they have a community center, there's the Refugee Assistance Council. So there's, there are all these organizations that do that look for mentorships, they want internships for students. So there's a lot of opportunity for corporations like ResMed or others across San Diego. So we try to build bridges around access to information, access to jobs, to mentors. And that to me is really important to make sure that our talent in San Diego stays here, grows here, feels like the sense of belonging here. So that's uh that's kind of what I do outside of work.  Bareeq: No, I love that because it's, it's also a representative of the community within which you're you are working in and, and finding ways to actually include the community in, in the work that you're doing. And I think that's actually incredibly commendable. So thank you for sharing that. So I'm actually gonna just gonna dive into the next question, which actually has to do with this as well. And it combines a couple of things we already discussed, which is in promoting economic inclusion and pay equity, what are some practical steps organizations can take to achieve gender parity in the workplace? I know this is always, I guess like a hot topic when it comes to any really across all sectors. But I would love to hear your uh your insight on it.  Sarah: Yeah, you have to start with data, you have to start with an analysis. So my recommendation to those listening is to understand if your organization has done a pay equity analysis, um understand your your data breakdown, right within organizations, looking at the different gender breakdowns. Then you can start understanding whether you have a story or not, right? Oh, some companies will do that pay equity analysis and then they'll come back and realize, well, we've had, you know, we have this percentage of cases. It could be bad, it could be not bad, not as bad as you thought, right? But it's very, very important to start with data. So my recommendation is to understand your gender breakdowns within each business unit. And I don't necessarily, I'm not the biggest fan of setting exact goals like percentages like X percent. I think it's important to go to leaders and say, well, here's where you are right now and here's what the benchmark is in this organization. So if you're looking at a finance or you're looking at electrical engineering, the gender availability in the pool of talent is different to begin with. So you can't claim 50/50 when you don't even have 50% a female representation in electrical engineering, for example. So understanding what the benchmarks are, is really going to help you. And then you can kind of say Well, you know what, let's really try to build more of a robust pipeline. Let's be more intentional or let's sponsor this conference. So that's where you really need to start solution out. It's not a one size fits all for an entire company. You have to break down a company within the departments. And then you also need to think about the overall pay equity analysis and understanding what, where potential remunerations are and if you have to do any adjustments.  Bareeq: I really love that because you're also talking about kind of funneling it down to, to it's almost like a case by case basis, like looking at different departments or different for, let's say, let's say, for example, the legal industry, we look at different practice groups and what is the representation there to begin with before we kind of dive into what the data says. I think that's a really great point. So actually I had a question and this is going to be a little bit of a pivot. So we talk about the importance of stripping away assumptions and biases in this line of work. How can individuals and organizations actively to work toward this goal? I think it's something that I would say the word actively because it's a really a never ending process. Um But what are some, I guess tips and advice you have for people.  Sarah: You know, I see a lot of D&I leaders focusing on unconscious bias trainings and that's it's great, but they're not really proven to help or work. It is important to offer it and it's important to uh have frameworks in place. What I find more valuable is showing leaders framework so that they understand psychologically why we have built in biases. Biases are there. It's it's not good to shame anyone for having biases. So what I always do, my recommendation is to know how to navigate biases. So you need to look at each team and kind of think about, ok, talent acquisition, what are potential biases here? With resumes, here's what we could do to navigate this or with interviewing, here's what we can do to navigate biases. So kind of going back to the the gender equity, it's your solutions need to go, they are tailored to the part of the department or company that has built in biases, right? If we're talking in promotion season, uh what I've done at companies before where I am now and now is let's make sure you have that point, that person who's in the meetings to make sure that there are no biases in assessing talent. Let's make sure that you don't have any biases when you're discussing promotions. So that's, that's where it's really important is when you're having promotion conversations, a hiring conversations, development conversations. I will say, I think it's very important to repeat conversations around unconscious bias. I do this training at least twice a year globally and people show up and actually leaders ask for it. They're just like, can you come in and talk about it because biases show up even in the way we communicate. I mean, Bareeq, we started off this conversation talking about being Arab American. I can't tell you how many times people tell me, I don't look Arab like I don't even understand what that means. Right. So the biases are there. And I think the biggest thing we can also teach our employees is knowing how to navigate those conversations, in a safe way, right, as a coachable moment. You know, so that's where we don't want more microaggressions. We want safe conversations where people are learning from one another.  Bareeq: I couldn't agree with you more, especially about the repetition because I just learned in a change management workshop that something only sticks after it's been repeated to you seven times which, you know, and talking about bias, I agree. I've, I've always been of the mindset that I can't shame anyone for bias because I think bias is inherently human. Um And you can't, you know, human beings will have bias. It's really about providing, providing tool kits in order to create bias disruption. Um And that's something that I think is a, is a powerful tool to provide people and, and reminding them, you know, over the course of time like, hey, this is available and let's talk about it and kind of bring it to the forefront, especially in very pivotal moments in the company. So like when you talk about performance assessment or they're going into recruiting season or things like that, I think it's um it's always like an essential thing to keep it in mind. So I completely agree. Um So I had something about challenges that we, that we end up facing and overcoming. It's an inevitable part of this advocacy work. Can you share a challenging moment in your journey and how you overcame it?  Sarah: Only one?  Bareeq: I was about to say there's probably many but one that comes, yeah, whatever comes to mind.  Sarah: I mean, the biggest thing that comes to mind is, is budget, right? Resources. The biggest challenge I had was um being on D&I teams and not being funded, not given adequate support and being de prioritized. And I know um if there are any D&I leaders listening to this, I'm sure there are some heads nodding or uh it is the hardest thing because I don't believe that we are set up for successfully. Uh And so the, the, you know, the days I have very long days and the days where I end even more exhausted is because I felt like someone didn't show up to meeting or move me out again or delayed a solution. Uh that is hard. And the other hard part is when you know, you need support or you need head count or you need that, that money or you want to sponsor, it gets really hard when you want to sponsor something and you don't have money to do it. And so com companies need to be very committed if your company is saying that they're committed to D&I, well, you have to, you have to show up. Right. And so that's where I'll say the biggest challenges.  Bareeq: Yeah, I found that even, not just where I am currently but in other organizations I've worked for, it's, it's definitely a constant problem if either it's monetarily or like you said, having that support. And I found that kind of pivoting the conversation almost lately, especially like making it a business case brings some people to the table in a different way because they're like, oh, you know, I never thought of it this way. So it's almost like changing perspectives on people's approach to D&I. You, you sometimes hope it was, you know, people come into it like already being there, but to get people there, you kind of have to find different approaches I feel. And finally, as we wrap up, um so what advice would you give beyond what we've given, because this has been a wonderful key conversation, what would you give advice to individuals or organizations looking to become more active in promoting inclusion diversity within their spheres of influence?  Sarah: Just to make sure it's uh for companies, right?  Bareeq: Advice for, for companies, for individuals, you know, people that are working to become more influential in the organization.  Sarah: So for internal advocates or internal stakeholders and D&I leaders, there is the opportunity you there's to really understand the power of influence and persistence and no one can really succeed in D&I without that strategic business lens. Like you need to understand your business and by understanding the business, then you can adapt a conversation around. What does inclusion mean at this business? What does it mean? Whether for my products, for my people, for our policies? Uh So that's my biggest one for internal and then for companies, I will say it's very important that if your values call out inclusion, diversity, belonging, acceptance, accessibility, then you have to embed that across all your work streams. You have to really think about. It's not just a people practice, it's an every leader, every person practice.  Bareeq: Thank you so much. I love that because it's almost like building in the expectation in anything that you kind of approach within the company. I love that. Thank you so much, Sarah for sharing your valuable insights and experience with us today. It's been an honor having you on the podcast and we really, I think have taken away some wonderful, wonderful key tips and advice that we will definitely be using hopefully.  Sarah: This is a joy. Thank you so much, Bareeq for the opportunity.  Bareeq: Thank you. And that's all for today's episode of Inclusivity Included. Join us next time as we continue our exploration of diversity, equity and inclusion. Thank you for listening.  Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.  Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  All rights reserved. Transcript is auto-generated.

In today's episode I'm welcoming Melissa Davis to talk about how to get clarity and direction in our business by knowing our values. We delve into the crucial process of translating our values into tangible actions and enabling us to authentically 'walk our talk.' Join us as we explore how this deep reflection on our values not only aligns with our purpose but serves as a guiding force toward genuine business clarity. This episode is a compass for solopreneurs navigating the path of purpose-driven business in the evolving landscape of conscious entrepreneurship. In our conversation, Melissa and I addressed the following topics: How Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and ‘walk our talk' How this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and much more...   Ep 182 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers, because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zannakroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're Ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like Like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer 1 on 1 support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, General business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years Business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, Wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my 1 on 1 client. You can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, Have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane dot marketing. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the p of Personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7 p's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here, this is your first time, a very big warm welcome. But you may not know what I'm talking about, You can go to download your 1 page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the 7 [00:03:00] Ps of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash guanpage, the number 1 in the word page. And this comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So today, I'm talking to Melissa Davis about the importance of your values. And if you're familiar with my work, you know how much I care about values as well. I wrote about them in the Marketing Like Human book and they are also part of the Marketing Like We're Human program. And it's really by talking with Melissa that I realized How knowing your values really gives you clarity and direction in your business. I always knew they were important and At the Marketing Like We're Human program is this foundational marketing program, but when she mentioned clarity and direction, I'm like, yeah, I'm totally with you. Before I tell you a little bit more about [00:04:00] Melissa, allow me to share a little bit more about The marketing like we're human, AKA the client resonator, my flagship program that I've been running since 2009 19 pre COVID, imagine that. And, uh, it starts again with a live cohort on March fourteenth. So today I was just talking to a potential participant and described the program to him as a program for deep thinkers. I think you heard me say that before on this podcast. I really feel Like a deep thinker myself, and I feel like that's who I do my best work with. And so, yeah, it's a program for deep thinkers who want to create their marketing foundation once and for all. So starting from within, from their why, and aligned with whom they are and aligned with their values. So if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you [00:05:00] are already familiar with the 7 p's of humane marketing. So passion, Personal power, people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership. And that's exactly the framework that the program follows. And besides in-depth videos and workbooks, we also have a weekly call to deepen the content of these topics. Even though I say it's about the marketing foundation, I often have participants who are not really new to business. So, Yes. It's foundational. But oftentimes, in business, we come to the foundation maybe 2 years in, maybe 5 years in, or even 10 years in. And that's because first, we are just wanting to Do the marketing stuff, you know, the the the the how. We are interested in the how. And so a lot of times people come to me after being 2 years, [00:06:00] 5 years, or 10 years, and often that's kind of when they're pivoting In their business and they've been through the motions. They've done what people told them to do in their marketing and just realized, A, it's not working. Or b, it may have been working, but it brought them the wrong clients or it's just not aligned with Them or their bigger why. So, yeah, that that's probably a third, um, uh, participant is Is the 1 that is looking for this bigger why. That has been in business and of course, I'm talking a little bit about myself and that's why I created the program. Um, so, you know, I had a business, a LinkedIn consultancy business for 10 plus years, but I just Felt like there's more than that. There's more than just the business that pays the bills. And so that's really what this, uh, program also does. It Connects you with your why, it connects you with your [00:07:00] life's work, and, uh, creates this foundation that is aligned with who you are and allows you to bring more of you to your marketing. Yeah. So that's what we do. We we go deep and we create the Foundation once and for all so that you can find out which marketing activities will flow for you. It's part Self development, part very pragmatic business best practices, part left, part right brain, mind and heart. And if that's resonating with you, have a look at the program details and watch some of the case studies, uh, as well at, uh, humane dot marketing forward slash program. And then let's get on a call to answer your questions and find out if it's a good Fit for you and where you currently are in your business. Okay. Back to Melissa. So Melissa Davis is on a mission to make sure that every change [00:08:00] maker gets the clarity they need to reach their full potential and deliver their gifts to the world. Through her work with startups, entrepreneurs, and change makers, she's uncovered an Invaluable process for helping them get foundational clarity, love that, on their purpose and Packed so they can go out and into the world and start top taking action. So in our conversation, we addressed the following topics, how Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and actually walk our talk. So going beyond Just that poster in our office that has our values up there. Well, how do we actually bring them into our business, bring them into our marketing? And then also how this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and, uh, of [00:09:00] course, so much more. So Without further ado and blah blah, let's, uh, dive right in. Hey, Melissa. So good to see you. Talk to you again. Really delighted to have you on the humane marketing podcast. Melissa: Oh, I'm really excited to be here. Um, I love your work, Sarah, and I have your book right here. I mean, um, rereading. Yeah. I I, um, I'm thrilled to To kind of sit down and, and, and really just dive into all of this because I think it's so important, um, To me as well. Um, and I just I really love I really love the work you're Sarah: doing. Thank you. And and maybe we can start by sharing how we Connected. I think that's always interesting for, uh, listeners to hear because, you know, there's this rare occasion where I do accept, Uh, a podcast pitch, but it's very rare. Most [00:10:00] often, it's, you know, conversations or, uh, Kind of like serendipity meetings like ours, uh, that then lead me to say, hey. I want you on my podcast. So why why don't you start by sharing that story? I'm trying to remember the story. Melissa: Did I reach I reached out Sarah: to you. Yeah. You reached out to me where, uh, we were connected on the collect, Uh, the, um Oh, yeah. Melissa: That's right. Changing work collective. Changing work Sarah: collective. Yeah. And so you reached out to me there. And then I was, like, Looking at your website and it said, Humanity Inc. I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yes. You know, there's serendipity right there. Yeah. Yeah. And so we Melissa: have Well, that's what I thought when I read your, you know, your bio, and I I think I saw you post, um, may it may have been something about the book. Um, right. And it was just like, I've gotta connect to Sarah. You know, you know you know when when you see it. You know you know when [00:11:00] you see That authenticity, um, show up. Yeah. And and it just it it felt like we needed to connect. Sarah: Yeah. And here we are a few months later. Thank you. Um, so, yeah, let's let's talk about Well, you mentioned authenticity. Uh, we wanna talk about values because that's the work you do. So maybe start us off there. Like, How did you get into this work and why did you call like, I have so many questions. Why do you call Your website, Humanity Inc, and what does that have to do with values? I guess that's my Melissa: first question. Okay. So there's like a little figure 8 of a story here. Um, so I got into values. So values was the initial impetus for me to kind of leave, um, Um, traditional work and go off on my own. Um, so I'd worked with, um, a few I'd [00:12:00] Worked with a few different larger organizations and then, um, a few smaller startup organizations. And, Um, what triggered my exploration of values was actually misalignment to values. And I think that's probably how everybody starts to recognize This distance between them and something else that's happening. Right? So, you know, what I recognized specifically in in The the the 1 startup that I'd been with for 5 years, um, was that we didn't have A singular set of values that drove us all in the same direction. And and so, You know, when I sat where I sat in the office, I was looking at this wall with these, you know, you can buy that big sticker with whatever writing you want on it. And I had the values of the organization. And I sat there every day and I rolled my eyes at this list of values that the organization said They were driven by, [00:13:00] and it was just bullshit. You know, I hope I can swear on your podcast. I'm sorry. Yeah. No. It really wasn't. It was just and and so I started calling them eye roll values. And I don't know if I started doing that at the time, but I definitely did later. Um, you know, and it's kind of like the worst thing that can, you know, erode an organization is having declaring that this is what we're all about, But we don't reflect that at all within our organization. So we kind of tried to dig in and and really understand What was happening in the organization? What were our, you know, um, driving values? What what came what brought us all together To grow in in the direction the organization wanted us to. Um, and so eventually I left That organization, because no 1 was interested in looking at that with me. No 1. You know, I mean, particularly in the leadership, um, There. And so [00:14:00] that was really frustrating. So my first experience with exploring values was incredibly frustrating, but, but it, It just really led me to kind of dig in further. And I, and I really developed this whole structure around it, you know, and, and continue to just Build on how I understood values and the roles that they played. And it was really focused on within organizations. Um, and I landed a a really fantastic job, um, And was incredibly excited about it. It was really aligned to my values. It was aligned to the work that I wanted to be doing with values embedded in my work. Um, and I ended up being laid off 3 months later when the giant client that I was brought in to to support left. And as most layoffs go, they're the best thing that's ever happened to you. You know, I mean, if you've ever been laid off, it's devastating at the time. But if you ask 9 [00:15:00] out of 10 People who ever, you know, got laid off ends up being the best thing that's ever happened to them in their career. And that's true for me as well. So, Um, you know, initially set off to continue my job search, um, and advance my career, and I just couldn't nothing. Nothing sounded good. I had a few offers. I just I couldn't stomach it. I would read these job descriptions, and I was just like, Do this. I don't wanna do any of it. It all makes me nauseous. It all just felt so shallow and so Boring, and I just I just couldn't do it. I really, like I physically was like, Do it, um, which is funny because I was pretty driven before. Um, and and it really struck me at that point that I've been doing all this work of examining organizations. Right? Like, why am I not turning this in on myself so that I could Figure out what this thing is that you [00:16:00] felt this fire, like just restlessness to do something completely different. Um, and it didn't occur to me until then to turn the work I was doing in values around on myself. Right. Uh, and that's really, that's the impetus for me going into business. Now, at the time, that business became values to brand, and it was focused on marketing. Um, I'd had some experience in marketing. Um, I went off and I studied with Donald Miller and I became a guide. Um, I'm no longer, um, a StoryBrand guide, but it was incredibly valuable for me to kind of build, Um, you know, some authority in the marketing space and their, um, their model, um, and Structure around it is just so incredibly simple and and wonderful. Um, and so When was that? So when was this whole? 2017 Teen maybe ish. No. Eights are not my thing. No, mine [00:17:00] neither. You have to be 18. My husband is the master of the debates. Right. You know, like, what what time was Owen born? You know, like, I'm like, I don't know. There's just my brain doesn't work like that. Right. Um, and I've worked in accounting. Um, so yeah. And and and so I continued in that, and And it just over time evolved into really understanding that what I was doing wasn't marketing And what I loved wasn't marketing. I could do it and I became incredibly proficient at it and fantastic at writing and articulating What other people couldn't articulate well, um, and that is that's a real gift of mine. Um, it's But I discovered it really wasn't marketing. And what I really wanted to do was help people get clarity because I started working with organizations, it was very small Organizations, but organizations, um, [00:18:00] in their marketing efforts. And I had a lot of technology background, so it was really easy to kind of like dive in. But they had they actually had no clarity around how they wanted to talk about what they needed to in their marketing. And so I kind of went, I need to be back here further. I need to be earlier in the journey. Mhmm. Um, and Mhmm. Because that's what I that's my gift. I I'm really fantastic at pulling putting dots together, and it all starts with values. Values just they there's So many roles that values play. It's we we often look at values in this very thin kind of, um, lens Of what's important to me. You're right. And values are so, so much more than that. And there's so much tangible evidence in our lives to tell us what our values are and to explore them and to reveal themselves to us. And so it's really accessible and it offers so much information [00:19:00] about our gifts and about our passion and What we really want to be doing with our lives and who to surround ourselves with and how to go at it. And so, um, And I was so passionate about doing work that mattered and solving problems that really advance humanity. Not, You know, not this localized sense of I just wanna make my life better, which is fantastic, and I think that That's a step. Um, but what really was important to me was to work with clients who had a sew that. Right? This idea that This work matters because I wanna help solve this bigger problem in the world. Right. Yeah. And so it eventually changed to Humanity Inc. Sarah: Okay. So the the website then changed to Humanity Inc. Yeah. And And, yeah, really, there was this huge resonance when I when I saw the [00:20:00] website, Humanity Inc, but then also when we had This conversation a few months back when you were sharing about the values, and I'm like, yeah, that's how I'm talking about the worldview And how, you know, in the in the 7 p's of humane marketing, you you start with passion and personal power, Which is exactly what you said. I'm earlier in the journey, and so that's what you're helping your clients with. Um, and and 1 word that really stood out as Well, is the word that you use clarity. And and I have been starting to say foundation. So it Melissa: Like That's what I end up call I call myself a foundational clarity Sarah: coach. Ah, there you go. Yeah. So so it really is that that saying where it's like, well, Yeah. You need clarity, and then you need that clarity to build your foundation. And that's what in a way, that's what you did. You figured out your values, And then you brought those values into your business and into your marketing and called it [00:21:00] humanity, Inc. Because you care about these Melissa: things. And so you want And my clients care about those things. Right? You want to help people. Yeah. Our our niche, our clients value what we value and they believe what we believe. Exactly. And it's within the scope of the values that we are driving and making central to our business. Right? We have, You know, we we have a lot of beliefs and we have, um, a number of values that are very central to us. And, you know, what we do is kind of like, what's the, Um, what's the stake in the ground that I'm putting out there and what are the values that drive that? And our niche, You know, our, our customers and our clients, they share those values and they believe what we believe. And so, you know, it drives me crazy when I see an entrepreneur trying to understand the values of their niche. And I'm like, you have to understand your values. Right. Your values. Absolutely. Start with you. Decide your niche. Yeah. [00:22:00] Mhmm. Yeah. And then you may have to figure Sarah: out the next thing I can do. Out there is so outward focused. Right? Yes. We feel like we're wasting time if we're look looking inside. And so I guess the question then, The logical next step question is, well, knowing my values, how do I turn those values into tangible Actions or, you know, business advice. So Melissa: take us there. Oh, that's the most exciting part. I mean, Our values provide so many clues as to what our outward action needs to look like. Um, you know, and they play different roles. You know, some of our Our highest values are part of the problem that we solve for our niche. [00:23:00] And that's a little bit of a process, but that really that 1 in particular kind of blows people's minds. Right? We're all, I think at our core, 1 of our deepest drives as human beings beyond safety and belonging Is to live in alignment to our values because that leads us to this Fulfillment, right, and to the these higher levels in the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the pathway to doing that is actually living in alignment to our values. At the base of that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, values don't play, um, a role. They don't play as big of a role In, um, in making sure that we're safe, making sure that we're fed, making sure that we have a roof over our house. Right? It's kinda hard to focus on values When we have to take care of our basic needs. Beyond that, as we, you know, as we move through belonging and then and then further up, our drive [00:24:00] Is to feel passionate and to feel fulfilled and happy and surround ourselves with people that are like us. And so, um, there's good sides to that, and there's not so good sides to that. Right? You know, our values kind of shift and evolve A little bit over time, they they reprioritize, um, but there is this massive drive to do that. And so what happens throughout our journey, wherever we are, whatever we're doing and whatever we desire, there's often a value of ours that we struggle to live. Right? So our values, um, we can have really strong values for something and not do a very good job of living it. Um, if if a value is not lived, we feel this Dissonance, this cognitive dissonance. And it it can actually make us feel sick. So we know it when it happens. We we don't feel good about ourselves. We don't feel good about our lives. We don't Feel right? We feel unfulfilled. Um, [00:25:00] and so what we do is we seek to close that gap, Right? In a lot of different ways. Some are healthy and some are not healthy. Um, but we reach urgency See, when we realize I've gotta do something that allows me to live this value, um, at a much higher level. And so ultimately, every problem that any entrepreneur solves is tied to helping our Clients and customers close the gap on a value that they're not living very well. Mhmm. And we may directly do it or we may indirectly do it, but we've got to And how we connect to living their values. And so that is 1 of the most direct ways that our values play into how we show up as entrepreneur, but they also determine our differentiation. I wanna work with, You know, I can work with any marketing expert. What differentiates you, Sarah, [00:26:00] you know, and your teaching Is your values. Right? Um, and it's 1 element of it, but it's probably the most important element of differentiation is I wanna work with somebody who shares my values. Right? It's important to me to get visible. I'm talking about myself right now. It's important for me to get visible. I have something really important that I want and need the world to know, and I have something to offer that I think is really important because We need more change makers to get out there and do the work of solving the big problems so that we can advance humanity. Right? Exactly. Okay. That value that I'm closing there for myself and for my clients is accountability. It's this sense of I must, I I know I have a higher potential and I've got to live it. I have this accountability to it. Um, if I sit here and I don't get visible and I don't do it Right. I'm not living my value of accountability. I'm sitting on my [00:27:00] butt and I'm wasting away and I'm not doing the thing. Um, and what I'm drawn to with you is is your value of Living in in your conscience, living in showing up in a humane way And living in compassion. And so that is How you do the work that you do. And it's important to me to align with somebody that does that because I don't wanna go out and spam The world with anything. Right? I can't this this interview is incredibly timely because I just really, like, hit my limit on the number of Invitations that I get on LinkedIn that are immediately followed by a pitch. I saw your Sarah: post. Yeah. Melissa: I'm like, And not doing it anymore. Um, and I've said that before and I still do it because I'm like, what if they're [00:28:00] like the most wonderful connection that I ever, you know, Um, I'm probably an eternal optimist, and I really I really don't like to shut people down and live in that energy. Um, but then it happens, and I'm deeply disappointed. And I'm like, why were you disappointed in this, Melissa? Well, it's that value. Right? Yeah. Um, so we work with people, right? There are operating values that we have, and there are differentiation. You know, they're how we show up To do the work that we do. And we must really embrace those values because that's what other people are are very much attracted to. We have very little competition in the world. Right? Mhmm. Very little competition in the world because Yeah. The way that you do it, the uniqueness Of how you do it is incredibly different from everyone around you. Yeah. There are plenty of people, right, That are drawn to it, but you have to get visible. I know we were talking about that before. So you still need to get out there. [00:29:00] Um, but then Yeah. But that's the targeted Sarah: action that we were saying. Well, how do you turn this these values that are internal Into something external. Um, well, you just said it. Right? It's like, okay, I wanna be visible, but I don't wanna just be visible in any kind of spammy way. Right? Yeah. You would never do that and just start spamming everybody, um, um, LinkedIn with with your pitches. So So it's like the value gets transformed or transmitted to the action that you're taking. And And for you, it's values. For me, it's worldview or the humane approach to whatever you do. And It's so true. And another thing that came up when you mentioned the Maslow's pyramid, I'm like, yeah. That's that's really good because my I call my people and I know you are a deep thinker as well. Right? That's kind of for me, that's a flag. It's like, this person is a deep Thinker, just like me. And they don't, you [00:30:00] know, they they they look at things. Yeah. They just think Deeply about things and they care. Uh, you know, humane marketing is for the generation of marketers that care. It's this deep deep Care and thinking about things. Um, and you're right. That doesn't happen at the bottom of the pyramid. Right? It's like you Have evolved, uh, or Yeah. Well, you can't Melissa: the privilege as well. You have the privilege. Exactly right. And have the privilege to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's too it's too much. Um, it had it happens. There are some people who can who can do that And who are struggling to to make it, um, for whatever reason, um, through the hierarchy of needs, it happens. But it's very it's it's too much to ask for someone who is who is struggling to Strictly aligned to their values, [00:31:00] um, and to focus on that and and to be able to do that. And it's it's, uh, yeah. Sarah: Yeah. And we need to, you know, understand that and show empathy because we're not in the same situation. Melissa: So Exactly. Right. And have someone that they can work with. Right. Or something that we can offer. Right. That, um, is more accessible. Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. This whole conversation also made me think of, uh, another conversation I had on the podcast about activism, Like business, uh, as activism. Right? And in a way, we're we're almost talking about that here because Especially because we care, you say, you know, humanity. You mentioned the current, uh, challenges. So in a way, it's almost like it's Borderline activism because we are truly just saying, no, we're not just doing it for the profit. We're really wanting it to do also [00:32:00] to move humanity or, you know, solve the problems we were facing right now. Melissa: Yeah. And it is like, I, you know, I, I use word, put a stake in the ground, you know, what do you stand for? Uh, and I think that Oftentimes that gets confused with, I have to have an opinion about everything, or I have to show my solidarity With what's happening in the world or I have to make a statement, and that's not what it means. What it means is I understand the lane That I'm passionate about. Mhmm. I understand where my stake in the ground Is and where people are looking to me for my thoughts and opinions and solidarity and strength. Mhmm. And, Um, I've I I and I do struggle with this even. You know, um, you know, when you when you look at what's happening in the world and people around you look for A [00:33:00] statement. Right. Something big happens. And I think we all have to kind of look internally and say, what What is my lane? Is this something that the world is looking to me for my thoughts Um, there that's a big difference between reaching out to the people in your lives who And having conversations. Yeah. And having conversations. That's not what I'm talking about. Right. Yeah. Um, but I think it's very challenging. I think the world is is, And social media specifically conflates this sense of having a stake in the ground with Showing up to every big thing that happens and demanding that you put a stake in the ground in a space that's not yours. And But it's such a good point. Yeah. Quite a big challenge to me. And I, um, have to remind myself all the [00:34:00] time that That's not my I didn't put a stake in the ground on that fight. If I had, then it is demanded that I that I Have something to say, I suppose. Yeah. Um, you know Sarah: what I use for this? I use the 17 sustainable development goals for this with my clients, And I have you know, this is the UN who basically looked at all the current challenges that we have and said, okay. Here are 17 that are currently really pressing. Um, and so I have my clients look at that and say, look. All of these problems right now are super important. Uh, all of them, all 17, but you can't focus your energy on all 17. So Choose 1 or Melissa: 2 maximum. I would argue. Sarah: I would argue. 1. Yeah. 1 is this number 17 is partnership. And so I feel like that applies to, like, almost everything because we need partnership and [00:35:00] community in Melissa: every That's a how though. It Sarah: yeah. It's it's almost like it's kind of a side. Right? Because the other ones are are, you know, Water, ocean, um, climate, like electricity Melissa: and all of that. So so yeah. It's almost like unity. You know? Exactly. So Sarah: that's why I say Pick 2, but make sure a partnership is 1 of them. Right. But but then yeah. Exactly what you say. Then it's like, well, if, You know, that there's something going on that has to do with that topic, then, yes. You know, people expect you to maybe make a statement. Um, but if it's not, then then it's not it's not your role to to to pitch in. So I I really like how you said it. Is it my lane? Is this expect because I use the word worldview, And there as well, it could be like, oh, I have to always express my worldview about this and this and this. Yeah. Like, no. I I [00:36:00] actually don't feel good about Because then we have the polarity, you know, with all these wars that are going on right now. And so it's like, well, no. I don't need to say, you know, if I'm I'm not usually, I'm not on any side, but I yeah. It's not part of My role, even I guess, as an activist, it wouldn't be part of of my role in this case. Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and There are times when I think that we do need to make a stand. There are definitely, you know, Points where it's incredibly relevant to our work to do it. Um, and and then we should. You know, it's just deciding, Is this because we feel the pressure to, you know, is this something that's relevant Yeah. To be in my work? Um, not just everyone's making a statement, and therefore I need to. Mhmm. So [00:37:00] Because, of course, we have opinions and we have thoughts and we have, you know, I mean, um, and explorations and confusion and, you know, and And questions and it but it doesn't mean that that and and I'm talking about a brand. I'm talking about, You know, us as humans behind a brand and a business and this stake in the ground that we've put around, what do we stand for? And this is why I'm doing the work that I'm doing. Right? That's what I'm talking about. And it's it is. It's incredibly challenging. However, understanding what you Stand for understanding your values, understanding, as you said, the roles that I play. What is my role in my work? And then how do I show up through that role to make a statement, um, or to Further my stake in the ground or to explain or whatever, that's incredibly helpful to take action. Mhmm. Because actions are how we live our values. Right? What are the roles that, Um, [00:38:00] that embody me and who I am that allow me to live my values. So, um, they're, they're incredibly helpful for understanding when it's right, you know, and how to, um, Take action on anything, not just, you know, not just activism, but but on anything. How do I show up on social media? How do I show up? It's walking the talk. Yeah. How do I show up? Right? Those are the roles. Mhmm. Sarah: I wanna talk a little bit about The idea of changing values. So not us necessarily, um, but more like Humanity at large. Right? I feel like we're going through a huge shift of changing values. Um, right now, Uh, maybe we're still in the middle of the storm, but we're definitely getting towards something, um, Kind of more conscious and, you know, at [00:39:00] least the the probably the the people that we hang out with, Uh, have very different values from maybe, uh, our grandparents had. So how have you looked at this also kind of in from a larger Effective, you know, how do generations how do their values change? Melissa: Yeah. It's really interesting to look at, And it's not something that I've spent a lot of time focusing on, you know, the the the evolution of values because Cultures have these kind of underlying, you know, values that drive them. Um, communities have values that drive them. Generations have values is that drive them. Um, and so there are all these different flavors of these group values. Right. And, you know, and then we have our individual values. And values come from a lot of different places and named a couple, but Religion, our family, you know, our culture, right? There are all these kind of [00:40:00] outside forces that impose values on us. Right. And then we have these innate values, these things that we're, like, born with or that develop from experiences that we have in our lives. And for whatever reason, they're all there, for right or for wrong. And, you know, values, We often put this kind of positive slant on values, and there's this incredibly powerful driver that values can have on us. But there's also dark side of values, Right? Values are how we show up in our bias. Values are how we show up in our judgment. And so they Aren't always positive drivers in our lives. So it's really interesting to look at, you know, how they influence How we move around in the world and how we see things in front of us. Um, and so It's fascinating to look at. It is fascinating to look at how things shift and change because those cultural values, those [00:41:00] religious values, right? I think what's happening is that we're questioning more Than we were before. Right. So I think all of that's still happening. Right? There's always an evolution of cultural values. There's always an evolution of Religious values and of course through generations, those values that get passed on change too because our parents have different experiences in the world and they want to Still different things in us. And so there's just an evolution that happens. But I think what's happening now is that we're questioning it more. I think we're going, is that mine? Is it really my responsibility to carry on this value? Is it it's not mine. It's my parents. It's it's it's this religion that I don't wanna have anything to do with anymore. It's this Culture in America that's toxic. Right? It's not mine. I think we're just [00:42:00] I think we're more introspective. Well, general You and I Sarah: also everybody. About change makers. Right? And so just this word change maker, well, obviously, We want change. And so, clearly, our values can be the same as the values that, Uh, our parents or grandparents had. Yep. So we are looking for something that is different than we have today. And so, necessarily, our values need to be not according to, you know, what has worked in the past 50 years. So I I feel like, yeah, that's fascinating too. And I'm sure you kinda see a pattern with your clients as well that often the values are, Melissa: you know, similar. So Of course, they are because my clients value what I value and they believe what I believe. Now that doesn't mean they're exactly the same by any stretch. And that's the beautiful thing. I think I would be bored out of my skull if [00:43:00] every client I worked with wanted to do what I did and had the exact same values and the same experiences. That's not even close to true. Right. Their experiences with their values are so incredibly different. They show up in so many different ways, and they drive them in different ways. And the combination we have these like, oh, I get so excited talking about this. There's this magical combination of these values that we have that come together That, like, create they they they make a shape out of this fire that we have. And it's So cool to see that come together. I often could see it coming together before they do. And so they're like, I don't know why you're so excited about this. But, you know, you can you can really see it. You can see the essence of Sarah when I see that magical combination and Why this stake in the ground is so important to you and how these gifts that you have come together in this way that allow you to go out and do that. [00:44:00] And, um, yeah, I think we're, we're just, um, we're getting to the point where We're invested in in understanding ourselves at a really deep level, and I think that's expanding. I think people Know that it's possible. You know, we we kinda have this when we talk about conscious or, you know, inhumane marketing and, Um, being more compassionate about the world and open minded. And when we look at social media, we're like, ugh. Right? However, social media and the Internet have also done amazing things for open mindedness and for Exposing us to ideas and thoughts and solutions and pathways that we never would have been exposed to. And so I think that is also contributing to this idea of it's possible for me to move from this [00:45:00] state of being to another State of being or from this state of action to another state of action and to experience this transformation and this capability that I have To go out and do something big. Mhmm. And so for some people, what would just be this little, like, forever frustration Of knowing they have potential that, you know, that just dies with them at the end of their lives. They're realizing that there are pathways to take action on it And do something about it. And to me, that's the the most tragic is to have that and to know that you have this fire, to know that you have this Big potential and to never have taken action on it. Sarah: Yeah. What you described before is basically the definition of a change maker. Right? It's like, okay, I I know I I can contribute to this change. And and, um, I was having another conversation about pivots. I [00:46:00] was part of some summit about pivots, and I feel like there's Such an awakening of, uh, pivots now because people are kinda like you a few years ago. Right? You're in this corporate job, And you just like, I know we can do something much bigger than Melissa: what we're doing. I didn't even know what it looked like. It Sarah: was just Yeah. It's just like this Inner knowing, and it's like, well, I need to get out of this prison, and I just need to create it myself. And I feel like there's a lot of and a lot of people in this Melissa: Situation. And to be clear, I had to take a part time job to do that. Of course. No. That's the other thing. It's like you can't just jump ship and then Well, you can. But I I wanna, like, you know, I hate when, you know, it seems to somebody from the outside that, you know, you just make this jump. I just decided, and now I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm making a million no. That's not what happened. Right? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, [00:47:00] um, there is Nothing wrong with taking the step and saying, okay, what do I need to do to allow myself to take this The step towards what I know is bigger. And I'm like, you know Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I feel like we're at a very Promising crossroad, um, of of change. So I'm just super grateful that you're helping all these change makers find clarity because That is the 1 thing that can waste you a lot of time if you don't have clarity. Right? Melissa: Um, and I'm so grateful that you're helping them Figure out how to get out into the world with the message that they, that they have and need to deliver and to grow. Because if we can't grow, we can't impact. Yeah. Period. That's the thing. I mean, that's that's it. Right? Right. Sarah: You know? I feel like that's a a beautiful place to to close. This was wonderful. Thanks so much for [00:48:00] being here. 2 things. Um, please do share where people can find out more about humanity and your work on clarity and values. So share that. And then I have another last Melissa: question. Okay. Um, so you can find me on my website, Um, humanityinc dot world. Um, and you can find me on LinkedIn, um, at melissa highsley hyphen davis. And if you have show notes, so we can put it there so that you don't have to try to spell that. Um, those are the 2 primary places that I hang out. Sarah: Yeah. And my my last question that I always ask is, what are you grateful for today or this week? This year, I can say because we're at the beginning of the Melissa: year. Um, well, I'm grateful that you invited me on this podcast and I was really excited to be here because I I really do love your work so much. Um, and let's say this year, [00:49:00] um, I'm grateful for Realizing that I needed to bring other people into my work. Mhmm. And for that shift of I need to create this myself to I need to collaboration has always been really important to me, but but there's this I mean, you know, you're a creator too. And I don't know. There is it's tough. It's tough when you're creating To shift from creating to sharing. And and so it's, um, I'm grateful for that shift. I'm very grateful for that shift, and I'm grateful that I'm getting more comfortable being a lot more visible. And so I'm really excited, um, about everything. Yay. Sarah: Thank you for moments. Right? It's kinda like Exactly. Melissa: That's what I [00:50:00] live for. And it's really fun when they're your own too. Sarah: Yeah. It's amazing. Thanks so much for being here and, uh, to be continued, of course. To be continued. Thank you. As always, I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Hopefully, uh, that makes you think deeper about your values and how they impact your work. In order to find out more about Melissa and Her work, go over to humanity inc dot world, and you can also get her foundational clarity canvas at humanity inc dot dot com forward slash foundational dash clarity dash canvas. And if you are looking for others who think like you, why not join us in the humane marketing circle? You can find out more about The circle at humane dot marketing forward slash circle, and you find the show notes of this episode at [00:51:00] humane dot marketing forward slash h m 1 8 2. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the humane business Festo and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my 2 books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being a part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

IntroAt the gracious invitation of AI Safety Twitter-fluencer Sarah Hastings-Woodhouse, I appeared on the very first episode of her new podcast “Consistently Candid” to debate moral realism (or something kinda like that, I guess; see below) with fellow philosophy nerd and EA Twitter aficionado Max Alexander, alongside Sarah as moderator and judge of sorts.What I believeIn spite of the name of the episode and the best of my knowledge/understanding a few days ago, it turns out my stance may not be ~genuine~ moral realism. Here's my basic meta-ethical take:* Descriptive statements that concern objective relative goodness or badness (e.g., "it is objectively for Sam to donate $20 than to buy an expensive meal that costs $20 more than a similar, less fancy meal”) can be and sometimes are true; but* Genuinely normative claims like “Sam should (!) donate $20 and should not buy that fancy meal” are never objectively true.Of course the label per se doesn't really matter. But for a bunch of reasons it still seems wise to figure out which label really does work best.Some definitionsStanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Moral realists are those who think that, in these respects, things should be taken at face value—moral claims do purport to report facts and are true if they get the facts right. Moreover, they hold, at least some moral claims actually are true. That much is the common and more or less defining ground of moral realism (although some accounts of moral realism see it as involving additional commitments, say to the independence of the moral facts from human thought and practice, or to those facts being objective in some specified way).Wikipedia:The robust model of moral realism commits moral realists to three theses:* The semantic thesis: The primary semantic role of moral predicates (such as "right" and "wrong") is to refer to moral properties (such as rightness and wrongness), so that moral statements (such as "honesty is good" and "slavery is unjust") purport to represent moral facts, and express propositions that are true or false (or approximately true, largely false, and so on).* The alethic thesis: Some moral propositions are in fact true.* The metaphysical thesis: Moral propositions are true when actions and other objects of moral assessment have the relevant moral properties (so that the relevant moral facts obtain), where these facts and properties are robust: their metaphysical status, whatever it is, is not relevantly different from that of (certain types of) ordinary non-moral facts and properties.And to settle the matter, here's what some LLM have to say.My prompt:Suppose a person believes the following:1: Descriptive statements that concern objective relative goodness or badness (e.g., "it is objectively for Sam to donate $20 than to buy an expensive meal that costs $20 more than a similar, less fancy meal”) can be and sometimes are true; but 2: Genuinely normative claims like “Sam should donate $20 and should not buy that fancy meal” are never objectively true.Is this person best categorized as a moral realist?ChatGPTGiven these two beliefs, the person's stance doesn't align completely with traditional moral realism, which typically asserts that there are objective truths about both moral facts (like the goodness or badness of actions) and moral duties (what one should or should not do). However, it also doesn't fully align with moral anti-realism, since the person believes in some form of objective truth regarding moral value.One possible categorization for this stance could be a form of "value realism" combined with "normative anti-realism" or "normative subjectivism." This would mean that the person believes in objective truths about what is better or worse (value realism) but thinks that what one ought to do (normative claims) is not a matter of objective truth but perhaps of subjective judgment or societal conventions.This position is quite sophisticated and might be best understood as a hybrid or intermediate position in the landscape of moral philosophy, rather than fitting neatly into the category of moral realism or its standard alternatives.Great, so much for trying to fit things into nice little buckets.Claude, fortunately, is more definitive:No, the view described is not best categorized as moral realism. Here's why:Moral realism is the view that there are objective moral facts or truths. A moral realist believes that some moral claims, including normative claims about what one should or shouldn't do, can be objectively and mind-independently true.The view in the example accepts that there can be objective truths about relative degrees of goodness or badness (claim 1). However, it denies that there are objective normative truths about what one should or shouldn't do (claim 2). By rejecting that genuine normative 'should/shouldn't' claims can be objectively true, the view denies a key commitment of moral realism - namely that moral claims can state objective normative facts. At best it allows for objective evaluative facts about goodness/badness, not prescriptive facts about obligations.So this view would be more accurately categorized as a form of moral anti-realism like non-cognitivism or error theory. It does not qualify as moral realism because of its rejection of the existence of objective normative truths that could make strong normative claims justified or true. The commitment to objective evaluative facts alone does not sufficiently qualify the view as realist in the metaethical sense.In summary, the view accepts objective "good/bad" facts but denies objective "should/shouldn't" facts. This combination puts it at odds with core commitments of moral realism, so it is better seen as an anti-realist view.I'm gonna disagree with Claude here, at least in that the bolded claim above (objective normative facts are a key part of moral realism) just seems…wrong? Like all the definitions could replace the term “moral fact” or “moral claim” with “normative fact” and “normative claim” but they do not!So I really don't have a great answer to which label works best. One of two ~human level chatbots giving me a definitive-sounding “anti-realism” answer is too much evidence for me, whose only formal philosophy training is an undergrad minor, to rule that one out. There are also good arguments, I think, for the “realist label,” as well as for “neither” (i.e., ‘secret third thing'). In fact all of these seem pretty similar in terms of argument convincingness/correctness. So, in sum,

Join me and guest Mark Silver in a deep dive into ethical pricing, dissecting models like "pay what you can" and the intriguing "pay from the heart." Mark, drawing from his new book "Heart Centered Business," emphasizes the crucial elements of transparency, balance, and assertiveness in pricing. The discussion explores ethical selling, treating clients individually, and a holistic, heart-aligned pricing strategy for sustainable business practices. In this episode, Patrick and I talk about his 'pay from the heart' price model as well as: His view on what money is (and it's NOT energy!) How to price ethically The elements of a successful ‘pay what you can' approach Who should adopt these models? Why neediness is not a bad thing Client sovereignty And so much more Ep 178 transcription Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 15. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. Hello and welcome back Humane Marketers to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Pricing and I'm so happy to have a returning guest Mark Silver from Heart of Business and we're going to be talking about Ethical pricing. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your [00:03:00] one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. marketing forward slash. One page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not prescriptive, but really reflective. Everything we do here at humane marketing is questioning our. Assumptions, what we assume and what we think we should be doing in marketing and question those assumptions and then come up with our own ideas. So before I tell you a bit more about Mark, allow me to invite you to a special week of events that is hosted by our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. Expo. We're calling it the Expo because we're exposing many different workshops and events that are all hosted by the members of our [00:04:00] community. It really truly is an unsummit, a different kind of experience that is organized and held by our community. And why an unsummit or what is an unsummit? Uh, it's because it's not just about what you'll learn, but how you'll experience it. Really, we decided that for this event, connection is our guiding star, and we believe in a different kind of learning. One where human connection is just as vital as the knowledge gained. So, our expo is about real conversations. It's shared experiences in a participating atmosphere that emphasizes the power of community. So it's not just about getting in as much content as you can and watching hours and hours of recordings, but really attending live. You can expect workshops, discussions, and connection calls that are aimed at fostering a sense of togetherness. And it's not just about [00:05:00] being passive, but an active member. About sharing, learning, and growing together, the activities range from a LinkedIn profile makeover to doodling for stress relief to data analysis, the human way we have grouped the different offerings into four areas that we believe make up a humane business and they are being. Relating, thinking, and doing. So please join us for free at the humane dot marketing forward slash expo E X P O. And while it's free to join, we'll ask for a small donation to attend the workshops because all revenue goes towards the fundraiser of the first ever real live meeting of our community in Sicily in May, 2024. So I hope to see you at the expo. The link again is humane. marketing forward slash expo and humane is with an [00:06:00] E at the end, humane. marketing forward slash expo. Okay. Back to this week's episode with Mark Silver. Since 1999, Mark has worked with heart centered entrepreneurs to help them realize that Every act of business can be an act of love. Mark is one of the pioneers in integrating real spirituality with the nitty gritty of small business. He founded Heart of Business Inc in 2001. A designated master teacher within his Sufi lineage, he has received his Masters of Divinity. As a coach, teacher, and spiritual healer, he has facilitated. Thousands of individual sessions with entrepreneurs and has led hundreds of classes, seminars, groups, and retreats. His weekly writings and teachings are followed by thousands of people around the globe. A fourth generation entrepreneur prior to heart of business, Mark ran a [00:07:00] distribution business, turned around a struggling nonprofit magazine and worked as a paramedic in the San Francisco Bay area. So in today's episode, we talked about Mark's view on what money is, and it's not energy according to him, how to price ethically, the elements of a successful pay what you can approach, who should adopt these models, why neediness is not a bad thing, client sovereignty, and so much more. So let's dive into this conversation with Mark Silver. Hi, Mark. So good to have you back. Thanks so much for indulging me again and, uh, uh, taking another round and another shot at this conversation. We had some tech issues the first time, so thanks so much for coming  Mark: back. Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness. If I think of all the times I've had tech issues or problems over the last couple of decades. No worries. [00:08:00] Part of it.  Sarah: Thank you. Thanks for being here. So we're hosting this conversation under the topic of ethical pricing. You've been on the podcast on a previous episode where we also talked about pricing, but, uh, a different aspect of, well, part of ethical pricing, which is this, uh, thing that you often talk about, which is pay what you want or pay what you can model. So we'll address that as well, but I feel like we could have easily called this episode the, um, ethical business, uh, episode, because you just wrote a book called Heart Centered Business, right? And so I, I read it and I, I'm going to kind of pick your brain about certain questions that came up for me, if that's okay. Mark: Yeah, I'm delighted. I'm delighted to dig in.  Sarah: Wonderful. So quite in the first pages of the book, you talk about money. And I think if we talk about ethical pricing, well, [00:09:00] obviously we need to talk about money, right? So this idea that often kind of makes it circles in the spiritual realms is this idea of, uh, money being energy and you make a very clear statement that money is not energy. And so I'd love for you to unpack this and explain, uh, yeah, your approach to it and why money isn't energy.  Mark: Yeah, so, um, thank you. It's a, it's a, it's a really good question. So this whole idea that while money's just energy, um, is something that I've seen make the rounds, as you said, in a lot of like spiritual business circles, and it's very often used, I think, as a bit of a, of a bypass, meaning, you know, not really POSITIVE pinpointing. You know, as taking permission to not really look at what's going on. Um, the truth is, it's true. Everything is [00:10:00] energy. Everything is divine at its essence. However, money only exists as money in the physical world. And when something is present in the physical world, it abides by. The, um, constrictions, the restrictions within the physical world, you know, it's like I look out my window and it's, you know, we're moving very close to winter. All the leaves are off the trees. This is not a time to try to plant tomatoes. You know, it's like, it's not going to work. Um, it is a time to plant trees, however. So it's like, Thank you. Because trees need to be dormant in order to over the over the winter. I don't need to get deep into regenerative farming and planting, but I did not know that. So thank you. Yeah. Yeah. You can plant them in the early spring. We could spend the whole episode on trees. I love trees. Anyway, um, so. When we talk about money as energy, it's really important that we're not thinking that that's an excuse [00:11:00] to bypass just being responsible with the, with how it works in the world, you know, it's, you know, there's, we have to pay attention to it. We have to account for it. We have to care for it if we want it to be in our lives. Now, It's also important to say that the economic systems that are in place in this world are extremely unjust there they've been manipulated they've been set up to benefit certain people and to harm others and so it's not like we just want to be. Um, unmindful of questions of justice or ethics or morality when we're dealing with money, but it does behoove us to really open our hearts to dealing with the real world aspects of what is needed to make money work in our lives. [00:12:00] Yeah.  Sarah: What comes to mind is, is the, um, I'm missing the words that, you know, the movement, um, that manifests anything, the, yeah, I can't remember the wording right now, but, but basically this idea of that, you know, if you just wish for it hard enough, then it will appear, um, kind of thing. And I, my. Left brain has just never been a big fan of that idea because it, like, I have a hard time actually understanding it because I, I do believe money is physical as well. So it's like, well, how, how is it just going to end up? And then again, sometimes, yes, you know, it does happen. Some weird circumstances make it, make it happen, but I don't think you can just sit back and. And manifest everything, anything and everything you want.  Mark: Yeah. So, you know, as a spiritual person and someone who's had a wide [00:13:00] variety of experiences in this world, I've witnessed miracles. I've witnessed things happen. Um, you know, You know, the, because the opposite isn't true either. Everything doesn't have to be hard work. You know, again, going back to, um, the land, like, you can set up, um, regenerative agriculture. You can set up permaculture. So the plants care for themselves. You can set up your business. You can set up your money so that it's easier to do. And it's not so much hard work. However, in the physical world, yeah. The physical world is limited and we're asked to care for one another. We're asked, you know, it's like a one person, you know, if we have a pie, somebody takes the whole pie, nobody else gets to eat. Right. We have to, we're here to share and we're here to care for one another. Right.  Sarah: Yeah. So, so if we take this idea of money being physical, so what does that then mean for our ethical pricing? How do we [00:14:00] apply ethical pricing with physical money?  Mark: Yeah, it's a really good question. And I, I looked at it very closely in particular in my industry, um, around business development and business coaching and business training. And I have seen for. For years and years and years and years, I mean, since, you know, 20 years, 23 years, I've been doing this now. I've seen people charge. Very high, very, you know, five figures, you know, 10, 000, 20, 000, um, to offer business training for people that are in the very beginnings of their business building. And when I think about ethical pricing at that level, there is no way that a brand new business just starting to take on. Learning about business is going to be able to generate the kind of income and revenue, uh, that is going to make that kind of investment worthwhile. Um, there's no [00:15:00] way that you can jumpstart. You know, it's like a plant takes what it takes to. To grow i've i've watched you know over the years we've seen really clearly that it takes two to four years for a business to go from creation to momentum if you're really focused on business development it doesn't happen in six months it doesn't happen even in twelve months although you can make a lot of progress and gain. Um, and gain traction there, but so ethical pricing is when the investment is balanced. The price that you're paying is balanced with what a reasonable outcome could be. You know, not, um, the, the home run, you know, people who, who do a variety of programs like to point out the stars. It's like, oh, yeah, they did my program and they quadrupled their income. And now they're making 6 figures easy. And 1, they're often hiding. The background of the person that that got those results [00:16:00] and what we really want to see is but what is the average person because you want someone who's doing a program most people are going to get average results and are those average results which can be great average results are great are they are the average results worth the investment or are you hoping on a lottery ticket that you're going to be the one person that gets the home run. We have to pay attention to that.  Sarah: I think it's all about honesty and talking about results with honesty. Right. And in humane marketing, we talk a lot about this idea of being transparent and honest marketers. And, and so what we usually see is exaggerated pricing with exaggerated results, like the worst of both cases. Right. Yeah. Like, yeah. And, and so, and the sad thing about this is that. Then people start to [00:17:00] expect miracle results, right? And if you as a humane marketer show up and say, I can't promise you 10 clients within 3 months of working with me. Um, then there's like disappointment or they're like, well, this other person promises this and that. And, and so it really feels like we need to have this conversation that there. Is no miracle solution. Yes. I also believe in miracles, uh, Mark, but in terms of business building, especially if you just start out, well, there, you know, the leaps usually happen a bit later, but in the first year, it's very, it's very seldom that you get these leaps. And especially you can't believe that you. Just because you invest 20, 000, you're going to get these leaps, right? That's exactly right. Honesty conversation we need to have. Yeah,  Mark: we do. And the, and the miracles which can come, I've seen people like, you know, they, you know, they, uh, you know, they [00:18:00] suddenly get a slew of clients, but if they don't understand where those clients came from and how to repeat it, then that's not really, you know, that's, that's not really what the, um. That's not really the cause of whatever program you're taking, right? It's like, you can, you can be set up to receive those clients. I've seen people be on the receiving end of miracles, but their business isn't structured to receive people. And then that definitely can create a problem. Like, you know, like, I think of a client, I think of clients who suddenly got big media exposure just because of that. By luck, but then the people that came towards them, they didn't know how to handle that. So, you know, I've worked with clients who say, oh, my goodness, I'm getting this big media exposure happening. It's going to be coming in a couple of weeks. I'm like, okay, let's ABC, like, let's handle these things so that your business is ready to receive whatever comes towards you. But, um, but you, you do need to, um, not. Pinned on [00:19:00] miracles and home runs for your business to work.  Sarah: Yeah. So let's talk about this, uh, idea of the sliding scale. So this, um, kind of accessible pricing in order to serve as many people as possible. That's kind of at the opposite end of the spectrum, right? Um, I do notice myself also, um, after having had discussions with colleagues, Having strong emotions with that scheme as well, because I do feel like, well, if we're selling that as an ideal business model, then that is not necessarily the beginning point for everybody either. Because otherwise you're going to burn out and, you know, if you start by just giving away your stuff for like really cheap pricing, then how are you going to get create momentum? So I'm really curious to, to [00:20:00] hear your thoughts on that.  Mark: Yeah, I think it's really important to understand that most of us. You know, we've been exposed to this, you know, large scale capitalist model, where it's like, we sell a lot for cheap, you know, the, the Walmart or Amazon or whatever model, and it's not healthy, you know, all of the small businesses, micro businesses are boutique businesses, you know, you can't, you can't. You can't sell 10, 000 or 100, 000. It's not realistic that you're going to get there very quickly. It takes, you know, if that's your business model, there's other things that we need to put in place. And we should talk to make sure that's really where you want to go. However, I'm very actually against sliding scale. And my pay from the heart model is significantly different than just a plain sliding scale. What I observed years ago with people using sliding scales was that there were, uh, Two things generally going on. [00:21:00] One was that there was this genuine desire to make their work accessible. Beautiful, beautiful. It's really important. There are people who can't access services, and it's wonderful to see people make attempts to make services available to them. However, what most people who were using sliding skills weren't doing is facing their own money issues. And so. Instead of facing their own money issues and coming up with something that works, they were unloading their money issues on somebody else and saying, Oh, I'm struggling to name a price. So you name a price. And when that works, when that happens, one, people do tend to go to the bottom of the scale. Um, just because. You know, struggling on their own in whatever ways, but, um, what also happens, which people didn't really realize till I started pointing this out to some of my clients was that if someone is struggling with money [00:22:00] issues themselves and everyone in this culture. Is if they have to choose the price they might choose not to buy it all because it's such an emotional struggle between i want to i want to care for myself i don't have a lot but i want to pay what they're worth it's too much to decide i'm just going to leave right yeah exactly exactly and overwhelmed so when we talk about pay from the heart there's a whole structure around it because, you You do need to, you know, I encourage people to really get clear on what your own business needs are and make that really clear to people. You know, we, we've just opened up a new course and, um. And we have, uh, our suggested price and we have a minimum price, and then we have a way for people to pay less than the minimum. But we make very clear that, oh, this [00:23:00] is for people who are going, who are struggling with food or shelter people that are, you know, like, it would do you a lot of harm. This is not just pay whatever's comfortable. Right? Because we need to be supported also. And so it's, it's much more of a collaborative process than just letting people choose whatever it is they want to, whatever they want to pay.  Sarah: Yeah. And I highly recommend we'll, we'll put the link in the, in the show notes page to the initial, the earlier discussion we had was only about that. And what I remember you saying, and I kind of gave this picture to my client of the, the star yoga pose, you know, take up space. I remember you're saying that I'm like, Oh yeah, that's a good way to put it. It's like you need to take up space as well and take up the space to explain things. You know, usually people just say, pay whatever you want. And then, like you said, they usually pick the lowest price. And if you [00:24:00] explain it well, then they'll understand. Um, And that takes you kind of showing up with, with confidence and space. Yeah. Right.  Mark: And we, and we made a mistake with this, um, in that we had launched it and we were way on the generous side. Going, you know, if you're really struggling, you know, et cetera, um, and people were paying below our minimum way more than was sustainable for us. And we're looking at it going, what's going on? And then we looked at our language. We're like, Oh, we're not taking a strong stand. And ever since we've taken a stronger stand, um, kind with kindness and with love and compassion, but including our business in the compassion with one of our offers, um, people really responded. And we really started seeing a market increase people, people care, you know, our clients are adults. You know, if [00:25:00] someone's paying you, they're going to be an adult, even if you work with kids, even if your business works with kids, the people paying you are the adults somehow, and they know that your business needs. You know, that you need to get paid, like, they know that it costs money to access services. And so you're not going to be surprising anyone when you put out what your financial needs are around and off. Right.  Sarah: So, so, yeah, this idea of neediness also comes up. In the book, and I guess that's what you meant by it, right? This, this are that our business has needs as well. And of course, as individuals have needs, but that in this case, neediness is not a bad thing. Um, is there anything else you want to add to that point of neediness?  Mark: Oh, my goodness. So this is a huge spiritual topic. And it's one of the core [00:26:00] things that we like to help people with. And in fact, our one of our flagship courses, the heart of money and power is really at heart about coming into a relationship with healthy neediness. We're all needy. We're all needy. It's this culture that has Told us that neediness is not healthy or not right, but we often aim our neediness in a wrong direction in a way where we're not going to get our needs met. And I'm, I mean, I'm needy. I can't manufacture the air that I'm breathing. I can't create the water that I drink. I can't force food to grow. You know, I'm needy on so many people doing their part in our culture for, you know, to survive. And so. When we can embrace our neediness, then we can be in a healthy relationship with it. We can be appropriate with it. When we try to [00:27:00] shove our neediness down and not embrace it is when it comes out sideways. You know, that's when it comes out in the sales conversation or comes out in our marketing. And it has this weird feeling of like, Oh, please buy for me or I'm not going to make it. And that feels horrible. To you as the business owner and it also obviously feels horrible to the client, but if we can just slow down and allow our heart to be fed our heart to drink in the love to drink in the care to know that we're cared for deeply. Then that allows us to feel grounded and solid and then we can start to provide a refuge for people and our clients can then lean into us not feeling like we're trying to extract something from them. Yes, we want to get paid, but we really want to care for people at the same time and it becomes a [00:28:00] much healthier interchange and it allows us to get at our marketing and our sales in a way that can feel really good in the heart. Because we're not trying to get something from people in that same kind of twisted way. Sarah: I feel like our, both our work is so aligned. You, you talk about sacred selling. I talk about selling like we're human. I have this visual of having a conversation with your client in the serene garden, right? So this groundedness is very much there. And, and I, yeah, I really hear you with what that means in terms of the neediness. But then there's also this other aspect of the client sovereignty, which you also talk about in the book, right? It's kind of this counter piece almost, uh, where yes, we have needs, but we also want the client to be sovereign and, you know, make their own decision and respect their decision. And their [00:29:00] timing and all of that, which is not what we're usually told in marketing or selling. We are told to push at any cost. So, um, yeah, what's the sacred selling look like for you?  Mark: Well, it's, it's so interesting because when I, when I. If my former career was as a paramedic, or 1 of my former careers was as a paramedic in the San Francisco Bay area, and I did it for some years in pretty intense environments like Oakland, California. And I, um. When I came into business more came back into business, I should say, I found that I was really good at sales and I was like, how does this may even make sense? And I realized that because I was a really skilled paramedic, I was skilled at doing rapid assessments and chaotic, chaotic environments where people were often scared or upset. I was good at. Caring for people and [00:30:00] assessing that that's basically what sales is. It's this assessment that, um, we're trying to get to the bottom of what is it that they really need. It's interesting. Another interesting thing that I discovered was that in, uh. English the word to sell the word cell comes from an old English word cell gen. I'm not pronouncing it correctly. I don't speak old English. Um, but the original meaning is to give something to someone in response to a request. So if you were to say, hey, Mark, can I have that pencil and I handed you the pencil that's selling. I would have sold the pencil to you because you asked for it. That's the heart of what we're trying to do is just get people what they need, not force people to make a decision that's entirely on us. So one of the, one of the keys of selling, uh, successfully is actually, and I. And I, I think this can be counterintuitive [00:31:00] sometimes for people that are hard centered, is that it's a numbers game. Um, you, you want your business to reach enough people that your need to have business and clients, which is totally legitimate. Of course, we need business and clients doesn't put that pressure on any one individual person that you're talking to. You can't really help it so much and it takes a lot of spiritual work and heart soothing in the beginning of business because you don't have such a wide network yet. You know, to not put that pressure, but as a business develops part of what happens is that. You naturally start to gain a larger audience i mean you work towards it you develop it you put things in place that help grow the audience and i don't mean tens of thousands of people i just mean hundreds of people or maybe a couple thousand that your business is reaching. So that when you have an offer, there are people that are naturally ready to [00:32:00] step forward and you're not putting pressure on people that aren't ready. And you can easily in your heart, give people space when they're not ready.  Sarah: Yeah, that's a really good way to, to put into perspective why we, I don't, I'm not a big fan of the word audience, but in this case, it makes sense, right? Why we need our work to reach. Several people, not just the ones that we talk to, and then we feel like we have to push our services onto them. So, so to me, it's always been such a gift when I put out an offer and then people resonate with that offer and come to me, right? That's such a more natural way of, of then having this, uh, humane, uh, gentle sales conversation. Mark: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I'll tell you why I. Do you like the word audience? Um, I think that, and there may be other words. I'd be interested to hear what your [00:33:00] language is around it, but audience for me has an element of honesty about it, you know, so for instance, heart of business, we reach thousands of people, you know, our emails. When we send out our Wednesday email, or if I'm on social media, there's thousands of people I don't have, I have a warm relationship and anyone who steps forward to talk to me, we have a warm connection. But I don't have an in, we do as a business. And for me as a, as the, as the head of the business, I don't have a warm, uh, I don't have an intimate. Relationship with each person on the list and, um, I care, obviously, you know, we care. It's not to say we don't care, but until someone steps forward and wants to have a deeper relationship, you know, joins our learning community or joins a course or something, then it becomes 2 way relationship. And until then, it really is a relationship. With an [00:34:00] audience, um, with, uh, you know, that's more or less a one way communication, unless someone chooses to reach out and email me, which I always, I mean, I love to get those messages, but the truth is the vast majority of people don't. So,  Sarah: yeah, no, and I get that. I think it's, it's, it's more the. Again, it's one of those buzzwords that has gotten a bad reputation because once you unpack the word, yeah, that's what the word means, right? And there's nothing bad with that word. But the problem is that, um, the guru marketers, you know, they tell you to scale your audience and grow. And so it becomes this negative thing where, again, we make. People feel like they have to have this giant audience and, you know, not everybody wants to have the same kind of business module like you do, or some of the other, um, marketers do. And so that's why to me, when I work with one on one coaching clients, for [00:35:00] example, they're like, I don't have an audience. What is an audience? Right. And so when I explain it to them, what it means, then. Then they get it, right? So it's all a matter of making sure that we speak the same language and understand  Mark: each other. It's so important because these words do get really twisted.  Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. Well, let's come full circle and come back to pricing. Um, any kind of, um, thoughts, actions that you'd like our listeners, watchers to, to take and just to. Go deeper into this ethical pricing.  Mark: Um, I think so. Arriving at a price is a little bit of an alchemical process. Um, you know, you need to have some knowledge. Like, I really encourage people to figure out what are your financial needs? You know, what are the needs of the business? You know, what is it? What is a price that a That you don't [00:36:00] have to be overwhelmed by clients in order to make a living and at the same time we need to be aware of our somatic body of our of our heart resonance because especially when we're newer in business i like to see people prioritize getting energy flowing through their business as opposed to like sticking to their guns and quote unquote charging what they're worth which doesn't make any sense that phrase doesn't even, You Make any sense. Um, and so oftentimes people begin, you know, we encourage people like, what is the price that you feel in your heart, in your body? You can say without shaking that you can put out there and feel really solid about and feel comfortable welcoming people in, even if it's lower than what you really need. Because what happens is, is that yeah. You know it's it's it's never only the price that's keeping people from saying yes [00:37:00] there's all these other pieces that need to be looked at in terms of how are you communicating and are you reaching the right people and you know and a lot of other things and. If all of those things are true, you know, and you get all of those things in alignment, then finding the price feels resonant in your heart. Even if it's lower, we'll start to get the flow going if your business is newer and you don't have a lot of flow. And so, um, and then that builds up your container. You start to go, Oh, I like working with clients. Oh, I've gotten to practice the sales conversation. I've gotten good at that. Oh, I like, I see that my offer is working and I've managed to tweak it. And once those things happen, generally, we start to feel comfortable at a higher price at a price that may be, you know, more sustainable. On the other hand, yeah. There may be people who have been in business for a while, and [00:38:00] they're actually not charging enough. And that's part of why their business is struggling. And, you know, and I'm talking about ethically in terms of being in alignment with themselves. We, I, I've had clients who said, you know, I've learned from this person, they've been doing it for 40 years, they're a master, but they're only charging this much. And so how can I charge more than them? And I, I often say, you know, well, they're, you know, they may be really good at what they do, but maybe they haven't worked on their money, money issues, maybe their pricing is stuck in a somatic memory from the 1980s instead of, you know, present day and, um. And a lot of times people in those positions don't realize how they're affecting everybody downstream. And so there's like an ethical need to embrace sustainable pricing, you know, sustainable pricing for the business owner. I think ethical pricing. We often look at, okay, are we [00:39:00] doing harm to the client? And that we do, we need to pay attention to that. But I also, you know, Notice that a lot of, uh, people that we work with see the systemic injustices, see the ways that people are struggling. And I'm saying, and I like to tell people, you cannot make up for systemic injustices on your own back. It needs to be a collective response and, um, and often our economic, economic system is asking, you know, exactly the people who shouldn't be giving yet more free labor, you know, women, people of color, um, queer folks, people who are disabled. Always the good people, right? Right. The people, the people who are, who are already being taxed by the system, who are already being asked to give more and to do more. And. These folks, and, you know, you need to have, um, sustainable pricing.  Sarah: [00:40:00] Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up this other side, which I, yeah, I truly believe in both sides and I do, I kind of see the same thing happening as in the sustainability field where there's so many good people, you know, putting. Themselves and, and, and their work into making these changes that we need to make, but they're not taking care of themselves, right? They're burning out in masses and, and that is not humane, uh, either. And so that that's not helping anybody. And so it's the same for the, for the humane business owner. Well, we need to actually first have you take care of yourself. Uh, once you are sustainable and you feel like I've taken care of myself without working day and night, right? A humane best business, in my opinion, is a business where you do actually have time to be human. We need to have this. Time to [00:41:00] to, yeah, create spaciousness for being human again, which we have, you know, forgotten how to do. You're talking about, you know, um, uh, plants and things like that. Well, we don't do that anymore because we're working all the time. But, um, so, so, yeah, I could go go on and on about this. This is like. One of my passion topics right now, but it's so true that we need to listen to, to both of these things. Yes. We want to be ethical towards others, but also towards ourselves.  Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and I think it's important for most people to, you know, people come into the field seeing, Oh, Hey, you know, come into their business thinking, Oh, I want to do this. You know, I want to make it accessible. I want to, you know, And I'd like to remind folks that most businesses, the business model that they're ultimately going to be successful with is not a business model that is accessible when they're in the very beginning of their business [00:42:00] and, um, you know, our pay from the heart model for our learning community. I couldn't even even created the learning community back in the beginning of our business. I didn't have the material created. I didn't have the solidity and the knowledge and the clarity that I have now on how to help people without having my hands directly on their business, you know, 1 to 1. And so it's quite a natural progression to, um. Start with getting the business on sound footing and then as you're, as you evolve and as you gain knowledge, and as you get clear on your work and your body of work, then to start to think about how can I shift this business model, not only to make it easier for me, but also to meet some of the goals I have around making it accessible to others. Sarah: Yeah, that's a good strategy. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Mark. Why don't you tell people where they can find. About [00:43:00] you and also your book and maybe tell us about who the ideal reader is for your book as well.  Mark: Yeah, thank you. Well, I mean, we live at heart of business dot com, uh, you know, if you're interested, you know, you may want to just start with our email list and make sure that, you know, I, I'm, I'm actually who I say I am and that the. Stuff that's coming out is consistent, you know, and it make and it makes sense on practical on practical level. Um, you can on our homepage if you scroll down, uh, uh, get an excerpt from the book, um, to read the 1st chapter and to see the table of contents. And, um, again, that's a good way to get it. Get a sense of it. Um, it's interesting when you write a book, it's definitely for, you know, heart of business. We specialize in working with micro businesses, which is people that are self employed up to, you know, maybe a double handful of people involved in the business, you know, from [00:44:00] people that are just trying to replace the professional salary all the way up to, you know, small businesses that might be struggling. Yeah. Making high six figures or low seven figures. That's kind of our range. Um, but I've been told by a lot of people that work with much larger companies, that the book actually applies very beautifully to people working in large corporations. And, um, um, and, uh, and so, yeah, um, we're just trying to get as much support. I'm really grateful. You're doing the work that you're doing, Sarah, because, um. We need as much love in the realm of business as we can get. There is so much healing and so much change that's needed, uh, to, um, undo the damage and to have a much more humane, much healthier, much more heart centered approach, uh, to being in business in this world. Sarah: For sure. Yeah. Thank you. I [00:45:00] always have one last question, Mark, and that's, what are you grateful for today or this week?  Mark: Oh, I am so grateful for where we live. Um, I get to, I know a lot of people don't have access to this and I'm just grateful to have access to, um, the woods and, uh, and the land around our house where we can grow food and where we can walk the dogs and just be in connection with nature. And it's just, um, it's just a, it's a balm on my soul.  Sarah: Hmm. Wonderful. I'm grateful our internet connection worked for this conversation.  Mark: Yes. That too. That too.  Sarah: Thanks so much for hanging out, Mark.  Mark: Yeah. Thank you for having me. Sarah: I hope you got great value and insights from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Mark and [00:46:00] his work at heartofbusiness. com. And of course, go over to heartcenteredbusinessbook. com to get a free excerpt of the book and some other information and of course, also links to buy the book. If you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us? During the week of December 4th to 8th in our community, we're hosting an expo. We call it the Humane Marketing Circle Expo, and we'd love to see you there. At the expo that is hosted by our community members, we prioritize connection as a guiding principle. This means you'll find engaging workshops, intimate discussions, study groups, and even a walk in nature. We believe in the power of a Collective wisdom, learning together and creating a truly participative atmosphere. The sessions are curated into four themed categories, being, relating, thinking, and doing, and these [00:47:00] are all addressing spectrum of topics that engage both our left and right brain, our masculine and feminine energies. So would you like to be part of that? Well, go over to humane. marketing forward slash expo and join us for this week of Humane Business Offerings. It's free to join, and we just ask for small donations to attend the workshops and the raised funds all go towards our first live event of the community in Sicily in May, 2020. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 178. And on this beautiful page, you'll also. Find a series of free offers, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your [00:48:00] clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:49:00] 

In today's episode, we dive into the P of Passion with our guest, Sophie Lechner, founder of The MAGNET Model. Join us as we explore Sophie's passion, the impact of her passion project, the Marketing Mutiny, and how it all fits into the bigger picture of humane marketing. In this episode with Sophie, we talked about: Her community passion project called the Marketing Mutiny Why she created it and her goal with it What makes it different from an online summit How a passion project creates a sense of purpose for your business How to create your own passion project and much more -- Ep 172 transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:27] Hello, and welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of. passion. So we're back at the first P of the humane marketing mandala with the seven Ps of humane marketing. If you're new here, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of humane marketing at humane. [00:02:55] marketing forward slash. One page, the number one and the word page. [00:03:00] And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So this is not a prescriptive, here are the things you need to do, uh, but more of the, well, here are some questions to, first of all, question all your assumptions around marketing, but then also help you reflect on these different piece for. [00:03:25] Your business. So today's guest is Sophie Leshner. Uh, after 25 years in corporate, Sophie became an entrepreneur and is now the founder of her second company, The Magnet Model. She helps mission driven entrepreneurs to find their audience on LinkedIn and engage with them so that they can spread the message and grow their business. [00:03:49] Over the last 20 years, her activity on LinkedIn has led to speaking engagements in the US and abroad. Podcast invitations, finding clients and JV partners, and [00:04:00] even an interview in Forbes. She created the magnet model to help entrepreneurs build the authentic relationships that will propel their mission forward. [00:04:09] Sophie works with clients one on one via courses, group programs, and workshops. This time I didn't invite Sophie to talk about LinkedIn. I invited her to talk about a passion project she calls the marketing mutiny, which as you'll find out is very much aligned with the humane marketing revolution. So we talked about her community passion project, uh, why she created it and her goal with it, what makes it different from an online summit, how a passion project creates a sense of purpose for your business, how to create your own. [00:04:48] Passion Project and so much more. So without further ado, let's welcome Sophie Lechner to the show. Hi Sophie. So good to have you on the Humane [00:05:00] Marketing Podcast. [00:05:01] Sophie: Hi, Sarah. I'm delighted to be here. [00:05:04] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. I just thought it would be such a great topic to talk to you in the, as you know, um, doing these conversations in the, in the piece of humane marketing. [00:05:16] And one of the first one is the passion P and I'm like, who do I know that is passionate and you and your passion project, uh, the marketing mutiny. Um, came to mind because I was just recently, recently participating or, or it kind of featured, I guess you would say. So, uh, I thought that makes a great conversations. [00:05:38] Uh, obviously it's very aligned with, uh, how we think here about, uh, marketing. So yeah. Why don't we get started with you kind of telling us about the marketing mutiny project, why you created it and what it is. [00:05:56] Sophie: Yeah. So I. Have been in the entrepreneurial world [00:06:00] for, what am I going to say, 11 years, and I have seen so many programs and so many tactics and so many, um, you know, shiny objects that come into the field of vision of new entrepreneurs. [00:06:16] And I have coached a lot of them, and I have seen the devastation, I want to say, that a lot of these marketing tactics, um, that it wreaks havoc with the entrepreneur's, um, life and ambition and, and, and their opportunity for growing because, you know, we come into the world of, Entrepreneurship with the passion we have for our, you know, our expertise, what it is we can help people with, but we don't know about marketing usually. [00:06:49] And so we start to sign up for all these different programs and then it gets overly complicated. It's the opposite of what you, you know, all of your marketing is about the [00:07:00] way you see, uh, um, entrepreneurship. So, um, I have seen in my coaching, a lot of entrepreneurs who are burnt out, discouraged, you know, don't understand what they need to do next. [00:07:15] And, and I just was getting more and more and more frustrated and then angry at all of this noise. And I thought there is another way of doing business, but a lot of people don't know it until they've gone through the whole process of getting burnt and, and, and sometimes they give up. And so I thought, well, what, you know, if you get angry enough, you get to a point where like, I got to do something about this and what can I do? [00:07:45] So I came across this kind of project and I thought, well, this is perfect. I will, I will, you know, get some people, invite them in, talk about it. And we'll just all together make as much noise as we [00:08:00] can about it. So we can crowd out all those aggressive marketers and. new entrepreneurs can hear about these humane ways of doing business. [00:08:12] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Obviously it reminds me of my own story, my own, uh, you know, burnout sitting on a therapist's chair and, and all of that. And it's, it's interesting because You have 11 years. I have almost 15 years. So I think we've kind of been exposed to the same, you know, gurus and marketers and all of that. [00:08:33] And it's just, yeah, seeing that. Overwhelmed seeing that frustration from, from maybe ourselves, but also from all these people that we're coaching is just like too much is too much. And so, yeah, you, you, you calling it a project, which I really like. And I think we can give a shout out to Ellie Trier who, um, has been on the [00:09:00] podcast before, right. [00:09:00] And as a common friend of ours and, and she's kind of really like. Started this maybe idea of, of instead of calling it a marketing campaign, maybe calling it a marketing or not even calling it a project, right? Let's call it a passionate project because, yeah, it is tied into passion and maybe like you said, anger, but I, you know, that's great passion if there's some really strong emotion related to it, like anger. [00:09:31] Um, And what I love about it is this community aspect to it, you, you called it the conversation. So tell us about this a bit more how you structured this and, you know, people are probably commonly used to an online summit. So maybe compare it to an online summit. [00:09:52] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good starting point to give people sort of a frame of reference for how it worked. [00:09:58] The commonalities is that [00:10:00] you're bringing. Um, specific people to speak about a topic and so you have an overarching topic and then you're bringing these people to, to speak and contribute, you know, their, their thoughts to it. The big difference I find, and I was always frustrated with summits where, you know, you'd watch a video, you get really excited and then. [00:10:21] And then what? Like, you want to talk to the person who spoke and you want to talk to other people about it and you've got nowhere to go. You're kind of [00:10:29] Sarah: siloed. [00:10:30] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah, most of the time it's just like you're just... absorbing and no way to go. So I think everything happens through conversations. That's my passion is conversations and connections between people. [00:10:43] So I said, okay, I want to bring these people, but I want to create it in a way that will, it will generate conversations. Cause it's not about, well, it is of course about the 10 minutes that I have invited people to speak, but it's about all the thoughts [00:11:00] that it generates in the entrepreneurs who. I want to have benefit from this. [00:11:05] So I created a container where people can have these conversations and it was so lovely to have people, you know, react and, um, be able to comment and ask each other questions. And if I do it in my business, what that looked like, you know, that's what I wanted and it's worked. It was great. [00:11:27] Sarah: Yeah. And I love that you said you created the container. [00:11:31] Um, I think That's really what I'm doing with the Humane Marketing Circle, which you're also part of. And I think It's really does. It took me a lot of time to realize that hosting the container is is a lot of value because we're so trained to think, Oh, I have to, you know, create all these videos and create all this content and, uh, you know, yeah, [00:12:00] record thousands of speakers, things like that. [00:12:03] We're actually. The value is in the container and you then kind of facilitating in this container and then just bringing in these little, you know, thoughtful reflections that people can have conversations around. Do you feel like that people got that value? They understood that? [00:12:25] Sophie: Yes. And I also think that there's room for me to do something more with it. [00:12:33] So I'm kind of in a transition phase because what happened was this was a project. It was for a month and I had 10 entrepreneurs and then that was going to be it. Right. And what actually happened is that I, I don't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I didn't know exactly what to expect. It was, it was a bit of an experiment, but I got a lot of interest and I got a lot of connections and I really enjoyed it. [00:12:57] And I think the people who were in it really enjoyed it. And [00:13:00] whenever I spoke about, Oh, I don't really want it to end. Everybody was like, no, keep it going. So I thought about, I had to change the format a little bit, but, um, it's now sort of an ongoing project. So I'm not doing them every other day, like during that month, cause that's just not sustainable, but I'm doing two a month. [00:13:22] And, um, [00:13:24] Sarah: Yeah, two, two speakers [00:13:26] Sophie: a month. Yes. So two new entrepreneurs who do marketing differently, uh, each month. And I had to streamline how it happens. And so I, I'm, I'm a little bit in the transition process right now. It's, you know, the momentum was not there anymore because I didn't look right away. So momentum is important as well when you're, you know, promoting something. [00:13:51] So, um, I think there is community and there's also room for changing and evolving how I can. nurture [00:14:00] that even better. Right. [00:14:01] Sarah: But, but I do feel like it's, it's become bigger than just a project for you to me. And by the way, we met through that. Right. And so obviously, yeah, our values are very much aligned. [00:14:16] And so it's not necessarily the outcomes maybe that you had sought, but then there's all these new people that you meet. And, and, um, to me, it's really nice. Like, Now this is part of your marketing. This is part of your worldview. Uh, Just like humane marketing is about the same ideas. Like let's do marketing differently, right? [00:14:39] And so marketing mutiny is now part of your worldview and you're a linkedin consultant in your you know day job And so people who will resonate with the marketing mutiny are gonna hire you Rather hire you than any other LinkedIn consultant because they resonate on that worldview level [00:15:00] and that's the beauty about this passion project. [00:15:03] I feel [00:15:04] Sophie: yeah, yeah. And you know, a lot of the values were already sort of what I was. Talking about and, and, and embodying in my content all the time. And so I think over time, I've been attracting these kinds of people who were attracted to this. Right. And then I think that's what caused marketing mutiny to be so popular, at least among my audience. [00:15:29] Um, and it kind of gave it a. A form, you know, a word, a name, a concept that people could really rally around. Before wasn't there was more, you know, amorphous. It was [00:15:43] Sarah: like abstract where now it's like, [00:15:46] Sophie: Oh, yes, this is the thing, you know, And I have to say one of the biggest benefits of the project that I did not expect. [00:15:55] And that I think is actually even better than anything I could have imagined [00:16:00] is. all the people that came out of the woodwork, so to speak, um, who I found out about, like you, for example, through the project. And so I realized as I was like not even halfway through that, you know, I had, I had Listed 10 and then as I was going through, I was like, Oh, but there's this person and that person and that person and I could actually have featured 20 or 30 and I was like, This is fantastic because that means because before it was, I was thinking, Okay, I have to make all the noise, you know, uh, to crowd out all those big marketing names. [00:16:38] And I was like, Okay, I'll do it. But you know, I'll do what I can. Now there's so many of us, we can really all get together. And, and be heard more, right, that was also, that was the biggest benefit. [00:16:54] Sarah: And maybe it's a good thing that, you know, you only, you only realized that they're [00:17:00] here because otherwise you would have been tempted to put everybody into the same month. [00:17:05] And then it would have been kind of like an overload again. And now you have all these people who are like. You know, you can really spread it out over, um, over time. So, so, so you said, okay, it's going to be an ongoing thing. So, so yeah. How do you see this evolving? [00:17:21] Sophie: You know, since I've started, I've, I've made, I have this list of people. [00:17:26] I'm actually now Booked, so to speak, till December, so whoever I invite next, which I'm at a point where I have to, like, withhold, I can't, like, invite someone and say, well, you'll be featured in January, you know, so it's a bit frustrating because I want more, but at the same time, there's a little bit, a little bit of, you know, behind the scenes work that needs to happen. [00:17:49] So, I've actually hired a VA part time to kind of help me with this, but it's not, you know, directly money generating. So I have to kind of, [00:18:00] you know, manage what's, what's bringing in. So anyway, um, [00:18:05] Sarah: No, I really like you address that point because I think That's the part of passion that we can easily kind of get overpassionate about. [00:18:15] And then, um, especially as, you know, givers, uh, in empaths, we're like, Oh, but this is so great. We want to do more. And then kind of go, uh, wait a bit. Um, you know, how do I, yeah. How do I manage in terms of The bills and now I actually need to hire somebody, you know, a VA to help me with it. So I'm actually putting money out of my pocket. [00:18:39] So it is a thing that you need to be realistic about and say, this is how much I can put in. And in a way, I don't know if you agree, but in a way you just kind of need to trust. That what you give in will come back many fold. [00:18:58] Sophie: Yeah, [00:19:00] exactly. Um, yes, in April, I had a absolute blast for all month, but you know, I didn't get much work done. [00:19:08] Right. Other than that, so clients and that was it. So it's finding that balance. You're absolutely right. On the, on the other hand, so like, yeah, I could do one a week, but it's just not the same. But on the other hand, like you said, there's, There's a momentum, there's conversations that happen. I mean, look at you and I. [00:19:29] So we met and I was like, wow, this is exactly what I'm talking about. So I, you know, signed up for your circle. I'm on your podcast. So there's like all these benefits through that more people would hear for about me and you know, maybe become clients. So it's a whole ecosystem and I think that's exactly what you teach with the seven Ps and Humane Marketing. [00:19:53] Um, So yeah, it's, you got to find that balance. [00:19:57] Sarah: It's trusting the invisible. It almost feels [00:20:00] like, you know, that is not often what we hear in marketing. It's more about the stats and numbers and conversions. And, and, and here we're talking about something intangible, intangible and kind of, yeah, invisible. [00:20:15] And, and yet we know it, it works. But while we're still in the moment, it's a bit, yeah, sometimes a bit scary to trust it. [00:20:26] Sophie: Yeah, a concrete example of that is that, you know, for the, um, for the integrity of the project, I wanted people to be able to sign up to get the emails to get, you know, the contributions, the videos, etc. [00:20:42] But I didn't want them to go on my regular list. Right. Yes. You know, that's all from marketing my, my, my offer. Right. Right. And so I, I, I set up this place separately on my system and they were tagged and they were [00:21:00] excluded from the other emails. And then I had a few people say, well, you know, you're saying that we're not going to receive your email. [00:21:05] What, what if we want to, so I added a line, like, you know, you're not on my main list, but if you want to, you know, and, um. And through that, and through being on LinkedIn, and through looking, you know, just finding out peripherally about me, a lot of the people did sign up for my list. So it's, it's interesting to see those dynamics, like people were just in there, in there for the marketing mutiny, but then they wanted to hear more about the rest of me and what I do. [00:21:36] So yeah, it ended up, you know, being good. A couple of people are, have big complaints. [00:21:42] Sarah: That's, that's so interesting. It's, it's almost like, As marketers, because I also see you as a humane marketer, right? We, we almost want to, especially because we're kind of going against the bro marketing, we're like, Oh, we gotta be super careful about what we're [00:22:00] doing. [00:22:00] And then we always almost take it to a level where people then go. But I wanted this. So please, you know, send me your emails. Um, yeah, I, I have added this, this line to my promotions, kind of the, the, the, the big programs, uh, where can unsubscribe also from the, the emails. Um, And thanks to Adam, who's in our, uh, our circle as well, who, who taught us how to do that. [00:22:27] And I wanted to, but I never figured it out. So now I, I know. And then I also have people, Oh, I accidentally pushed that link. And now can you please, I want to keep receiving your emails. I'm like, wow, that's unexpected. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really interesting how we have. We're kind of like walking on eggshells now because we're like, oh yeah, we definitely don't want to do the pro marketing thing. [00:22:54] Yeah. But then, yeah, we, we don't want to block people out either. So. [00:23:00] Yeah. [00:23:00] Sophie: Yeah. And it's interesting how it really, I find our kind of marketing really changes the relationship that we have with our readers, with our audience, you know, especially, but even just our audience, like there's something You know, like a human connection that I feel is not there when you're in some of these other people's lists. [00:23:22] it's just a transaction. It's just a piece of piece of paper. It's an email, but you know, it's concrete. It's not, there's no humanness in it. So yeah, [00:23:33] Sarah: Yeah, and I think it's the transparency. What I always say, humane marketing, how is it different? It is really about the transparency and explaining everything you do. [00:23:45] So by, you know, you saying you're not going to be added to my list. But if you want to, then, you know, you can do so here where until now, everything has been so kind of in the [00:24:00] shadow and, you know, kind of like shady and, and. That's what people, that's what has created this huge mistrust in marketing. It's like, Ooh, you know, what if I put my email in and then I'm going to get all of these things where here it's like, well, it's all out there. [00:24:17] This is what's going to happen. Um, so I feel like really this, this transparency is so key in, in my [00:24:25] Sophie: Absolutely. And I think a lot of it has to do with. letting people have their agency. And that was actually what one of the contributors in the April marketing mutiny, um, that was the, her value that she mentioned in her video was agency, your customer's agency. [00:24:43] And I think that's what we are robbed of by the bro marketers, bully marketers is, you know, like you, you, you sign up for something and you, you, you kind of feel like you're being sucked into something. You don't have full agency over what happens next. [00:25:00] Right. Um, I think that's one of the key elements that we, you know, um, uh, for our. [00:25:08] Our audience. [00:25:09] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's all about giving the power back. I really feel like the last 10 years we have disempowered our clients and giving the power back. Um, what I'd love us to, uh, I'd love you to share is kind of like if listeners are like, wow, that project sounds interesting. Um, if they wanted to run their own kind of community project, what would you tell them? [00:25:38] Uh, where should they start? Like, um, you know, what do they need to think about first? What would make a good topic? Maybe things [00:25:46] Sophie: like that. Yeah. So I think what's very important is to find a topic that You feel strongly about emotionally that others will [00:26:00] rally around so think of it as a movement, right? [00:26:03] And you can start it small. You don't have to be scared by the word movement, but that's what I feel. Marketing mutiny is right. It's it's this idea with all kinds of ramifications underneath, but it's an overarching concept that It's your standing for something or against something. Um, it's a big idea. [00:26:25] It's something people can rally around. That to me is the key thing for, uh, a project like this. Right. Um, it can also be, um, a topic where you want... to have people explore different, um, different aspects of, of, um, a topic. So I don't know, like, um, let's say burnout, you know, like, there's a lot of [00:27:00] Issues with burnout, all kinds of reasons why burnout happens, all kinds of therapies you can use, you know, there's like a lot of different avenues. [00:27:11] And so you can take a topic and then explore all the different ways of talking about it and how that can become bigger conversation. Yeah, that's what I would say. [00:27:24] Sarah: What I was thinking while you were talking is like, usually, you know, a marketer or a business coach would tell you to have like this goal for this project. [00:27:36] It's like, oh, you know, they have these beautiful conversations and then Sophie comes in and sells them this LinkedIn consulting package, but that's not how it went. Right. So how do we, it's really like this mindset shift is like, wait a minute, I'm just hosting conversations. And there's not like a funnel what they're going to do next. [00:27:57] And then they're going to, you know, go on this [00:28:00] webinar and buy this thing. So, yeah, tell us the reasoning behind that. [00:28:05] Sophie: Yeah, I, uh, I obviously subconsciously thought it was, uh, you know, um, uh, goes without saying but clearly, clearly it's not, I shouldn't think that. So yes, it has to be a topic that is. you know, related to what you do or your, or that reflects your worldview that impacts how you do business, but it should not be. [00:28:30] And some people have used these projects. to, you know, actually get leads and get them into a funnel and all of this. Um, but I think it is really critical. It's the same thing I say about how to use LinkedIn, but you know, that's another story, but it's critical to disassociate from the outcome. Just leave. [00:28:52] the outcome. Do it for the beauty of it. Do it for the conversations. Do it because it's good for [00:29:00] society and the world at large to have this conversation and to raise awareness of whatever the topic you've chosen. Um, so yeah, no, if you, if you do it with I mean, I'm, I'm, I have no doubt it would work in bringing you leads, you know, but that is not the reason you should be doing it. [00:29:25] You should do it or not for that reason. [00:29:27] Sarah: Right. I, I also think that, you know, like you even said, the clients will emerge out of it, um, but it's in that organic, humane way, uh, because they, they resonate with your worldview and with your passion so much. And you just happen to be very, very good at LinkedIn. [00:29:49] So it's kind of like, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm [00:29:53] Sophie: also that, yeah. It's a good, it's a good backdrop because, you know, when, when people You [00:30:00] know, hear about me through marketing mutiny and they realize, Oh, actually I do have this LinkedIn question problem, whatever. Um, they know already that the way I'm going to approach LinkedIn is not going to be sending a hundred DMS a day and, you know, sending spammy DMS. [00:30:19] I mean, they, they know that. So it's, it's exactly. [00:30:24] Sarah: Yeah, exactly. It's like part of your worldview. And that's by the way, why I transitioned out of LinkedIn, because I was like, you know, I could not deal with another, uh, you know, discovery call where people were asking me to sell a thousand leads or get them a thousand leads. [00:30:43] And I'm like, this is just not for me. And, and I see now, obviously that I transitioned out of it. That I should have led with humane marketing, just like you're doing. That's how you then get the right people. So, so yeah, totally, [00:31:00] totally makes sense. [00:31:01] Sophie: Yeah. When somebody comes to me saying, you know, can you, what's a good way of. [00:31:06] Phrasing my DM outreach. I'm like, Oh, wrong person to have a very short conversation. [00:31:17] Sarah: Yeah. Another, uh, kind of similar event type that I've just, um, seen, um, um, patchy don't know if you know, patchy, um, another common friend. Yeah. So she's doing some kind of round table, uh, event. And I really also resonated with that approach where it's, you know, still a conversation, but it's a roundtable, uh, conversation. [00:31:44] And I, yeah, I'm really looking forward to that as well. So I think, you know, it's, it's in the zeitgeist, it's like, well, people don't want to just be talked down to, or, or kind of like talked to and, and, um, they want to, they [00:32:00] want to be heard and seen and have conversations. Yeah. [00:32:03] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really breaking down the barriers, you know, like summits are, you know, you're over there in the summit, you know, video and I'm here in my office and that's it. [00:32:16] And, um, with these projects, it's like, oh, so how. I could see myself absorbing some of that information because I can have that back and forth. I can interact with the person presenting. I can talk with other people about how, what it would look like. And it makes it. It makes it all possible. It makes it all, you know, usable and [00:32:40] Sarah: it's approachable because you don't feel like, Oh, look at these, you know, gurus who are the summit speakers and they're so attached from everything. [00:32:50] Where now it's like, well, they're just part of the conversation. Yeah. Same human level. Yeah. [00:32:57] Sophie: I think people were surprised at first, they were like, [00:33:00] oh, so the person in the video is actually responding to me? [00:33:06] Sarah: They're so famous, they can't even respond to it. That's funny. Um, yeah, please do tell us where people can join the Marketing Mutiny now that it's an ongoing thing. I'm sure all the listeners are like, oh, tell us how. Yeah. [00:33:22] Sophie: Yeah. So. As I said, I was, you know, I'm transitioning to a new way of doing it because I didn't want to have to send all these emails. [00:33:31] And so I've streamlined it for myself and to be able to continue doing it. So what I've decided to do is to actually feature the entrepreneurs in my LinkedIn newsletter. The reason I did that is because I have quite a bit big, um, following there. And so those people will get an email with the newsletter. [00:33:54] So every other newsletter, it's kind of my going on goings on about [00:34:00] LinkedIn and every other newsletter is, um, a marketing entrepreneur being featured. So that's the way to, um, receive this information. And then the conversation takes place. in the comments to the newsletter, which are then, you know, um, all gathered in the LinkedIn group. [00:34:21] And that's, that's behind the scenes. If people want to have one place to find everything that's in the LinkedIn group. [00:34:27] Sarah: Wonderful. All right. So we'll link to the newsletter, uh, in that case in the show notes and, and people can find it there, or I guess otherwise they can also come to your website. So what's your website URL? [00:34:40] Sophie: Yes. My website is themagnetmodel. com and, uh, there's the second part of that link. If you want to go straight to all the marketing mutiny stuff is marketing mutiny ebook. So themagnetmodel. com slash marketing mutiny ebook. It's a bit long, but we'll put it in the [00:35:00] show, you put in the show notes, [00:35:01] Sarah: right? [00:35:01] Wonderful. Yeah. And I assume people can find you on LinkedIn because that's where you mostly hang out. That's probably [00:35:09] Sophie: the easiest of all. It's just find me there and you'll find all the, all the stuff, all the stuff about LinkedIn, but all the stuff about the marketing you can do [00:35:18] Sarah: there. Well, thank you so much for having this passion project conversation. [00:35:24] I, I really loved it and I love what you're doing and I love having you in the humane marketing circle. So thank you for that. Uh, I always have one last question that I ask all my guests and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:35:41] Sophie: I am grateful for all the wonderful people, including you, that I've discovered through Marketing Mutiny and for the joy of doing business in a way that is Aligned with what I love, aligned with what I am passionate about.[00:36:00] [00:36:00] Um, and this is the way to be an entrepreneur and every day is a joy. So that's what I'm grateful for. [00:36:07] Sarah: Thank you. Me too. Great hanging out with you. Thanks so much. Thanks [00:36:13] Sophie: for having me, Sarah. [00:36:16] Sarah: I hope you enjoyed this episode about the P of passion. So important to find this purpose in your business. Please join the marketing mutiny at marketing mutiny. [00:36:28] org. And you can also find out more about Sophie and her LinkedIn work at themagnetmodel. com where you'll also find a great quiz to find out what kind of LinkedIn user you are. Sophie is an active member of the Humane Marketing Circle. So if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the circle? [00:36:50] You can find out more about our community at humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. [00:37:00] marketing forward slash H M 1 7 2. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing, like we're. [00:37:18] Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon![00:38:00]

In today's episode, we sat down with James, a Freelance Web and Graphic Designer based in Bedford, Bedfordshire, who brings a wealth of experience in creating websites for Coaches. During our chat, we covered a lot of useful topics that can really help you level up your coaching website. We started by demystifying the differences between graphic and web design. Then, we dug into how to make sure your website truly reflects your coaching services and personal brand. James shared some great tips on planning out your website content effectively, and how to present your services in a way that resonates with your potential clients. We also explored how your website can connect better with your ideal client and the strategies you can use to keep them engaged and interested. Ever wondered whether you can change your website once it's up? We talked about that too. Plus, James shed some light on the ongoing maintenance that websites might need, and what to look for when choosing a website host. Whether you're a seasoned coach or just starting, this episode has something for you. In this episode James and I discuss about: The difference between a graphic and web designer How a website represents your personal brand How to plan out my website content How to position my services on my site What strategies can I use to engage potential clients and encourage inquiries? Is a website a static thing or can it be changed once I get it back from the designer and much more Ep 170 transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:29] Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Promotion. If you're a regular listener, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here, then you probably don't know what I'm talking about with these seven P's and the mandala, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. [00:02:58] marketing [00:03:00] forward slash one. page, the number one and the word page. And, uh, humane is with an E. So not human, but humane with an E at the end dot marketing. It comes with the seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. So humane marketing is not prescriptive. [00:03:21] It's not a six. step approach. It's a reflective approach. It's, uh, where I ask you to question all your assumptions that you have about marketing. So that's what you get with the one page marketing plan for the seven piece of humane marketing. Today I'm speaking with a new friend, James Mall, who's a web and graphic designer. [00:03:44] Uh, but before introducing you to James, I want to remind you that I'm talking to potential participants for the Marketing Like We're Human program, also known as the Client Resonator. This three month program is my main offering and it's connected [00:04:00] to this podcast and based on the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala because we'll dive deeply into these seven Ps during the program to help you discover your true self and passions so you can bring more of your. [00:04:16] into your marketing. It's really about marketing from within, marketing authentically. It's also much more than marketing. It's really about business building. And I do bring in kind of this different. business paradigm. While the main goal is to connect with your ideal clients, it goes beyond marketing. It forms the foundation of your life's work. [00:04:41] We'll start by focusing on things like passion and personal power, your why, and then move to other aspects like people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnerships. The program is in a small group setting, ensuring therefore a meaningful experience that aligns your business with your values. [00:05:00] It's a mix of videos, 20 to 30 minutes, uh, video per week. [00:05:05] Uh, beautifully designed workbook with lots of questions. My program is for deep thinkers, those who want to really roll back the sleeves and think deeply about, um, how they want to market, how they want to run their business, journal prompts. And then of course the live group calls in which I facilitate the conversation to take us even deeper into the topic of the week, who's this program for? [00:05:32] It's for entrepreneurs. Uh, who are quietly rebellious as well as change makers who have different levels of business experience, whether you've been in the game for one year, five years, or even 10 or more, it really is never too late to build a strong foundation for your business and your life's work. [00:05:52] So. If you want to know more, check out humane. marketing forward slash program for lots [00:06:00] of testimonials and case studies from past participants. And if this program feels like it might be the right fit for you right now, let's talk. There's a button on that page to schedule a call with me. So, uh, yeah, please do that. [00:06:15] We're starting on August 24th. All right. Thank you so much for letting me share about this. Now let's go back to today's podcast and back to James. So James is a freelance web and graphic designer based in Bedford. Bedford Shire, uh, that's the UK. And having worked with a variety, variety of clients, his portfolio includes fashion, swimwear, academics, coaches, property, charities, and photographers. [00:06:47] He now specializes in building websites for business coaches, and he loves and believes in helping coaches to build a better web. experience for their clients and themselves. In our [00:07:00] conversation, we talked about the difference between a graphic and web designer. I think that's really key for, uh, clients to understand. [00:07:09] How a website represents your personal brand, how to plan out. Your website content, how to position your services on your site, what strategies you can use to engage potential clients and encourage inquiries, uh, whether a website is static or whether it can be changed once you get it back from the designer and so many more topics. [00:07:34] So let's dive in with, uh, James Moll. Hi, James. I'm so happy to hang out with you. Welcome to [00:07:42] James: the show. Hi, Sarah. Thanks very much for having me. Thank you. [00:07:47] Sarah: Yeah, I'm delighted to have this conversation about websites. So let's see all the different topics we could get into. Um, we tried to beforehand, right? [00:07:57] Come up with some, some questions. [00:08:00] And so I do want to ask you one that you're like, Hey, maybe not this one, but I'm like, well, I'm going to ask you anyway, because, because actually, you know, in the bio that I just read about you, um, I did say you're a, uh, uh, web and graphic designer, right? So website designer, graphic designer. [00:08:19] And, and I know that quite a lot of people sometimes get confused. Well, what is what, who does what? And so I'd like to start us off there so that you can kind of give us a good Um, distinction between what does a graphic designer do and what does a web designer do? And if I need a website, who do I look for [00:08:44] James: then? [00:08:45] Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, it's actually quite a good question, I think, for people that are not aware, obviously, the difference between a web and a graphic designer. Being in the industry, um, a lot of people are aware. So, so a graphic designer is someone [00:09:00] that designs, uh, graphics. It could either be print based or digital based. [00:09:04] So it can either be. Uh, brochures, leaflets, um, billboards, um, and they could do digital design as well. So they could design adverts on social media. Um, there is crossover between that and websites. So they can design graphics that specifically go on websites as well. So they can sit on a, on a, um, a website, but how they differ from a web designer is that they're not techie. [00:09:29] So they're not able to, most graphic designers are not able to develop, uh, and build websites. So web designer is. actually more technical in terms of they're able to either code, uh, build a website with code, HTML, um, WordPress, um, software like that, or they can, uh, use no code software as well, which I, I worked with as well. [00:09:52] So I worked with a program called elemental along with WordPress. So I'm able to kind of use drag and drop software. Um, some like I've come, I'm [00:10:00] coming from a graphic design background to a website background. So there is some crossover, um, but generally. Graphic designers tend to design, um, the graphics either for print or digital. [00:10:13] Um, and they don't really tend to do websites. So they differ in that instance. I hope that kind of clears [00:10:20] Sarah: up things. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess. A graphic designer can learn to be a web designer and then be both, which is your case. And a web designer can also, or that's a question, do web designers sometimes also go into graphic design? [00:10:40] Or maybe that direction is less common. What would you say? [00:10:45] James: Um, I've actually met quite a few people that have gone both. So from like myself on graphic design into website design, and then vice versa, website design to graphic design. And I think it just [00:11:00] matters on your technical ability and what you enjoy. [00:11:04] If you enjoy graphic design, if you enjoy sort of creating. You know, anything from logos to branding, you know, brochures, um, graphic design is so wide as well. Um, and then it easily crosses over onto, um, website design. Um, it's kind of similar to coaching in a way, I guess, because a lot of sort of business coaches, for example, that I work with tend to do, you know, personal coaching as well, life coaching, um, and vice versa. [00:11:36] So there's some crossover there as well. So, um. Yeah, they can be cross over as well. [00:11:41] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. In my, um, sense of understanding this is the graphic design has to do with the beauty. It has to do with the aesthetics, with the art, with the colors, with the logo, uh, you know, with the, yeah, the word says it graphic, right? [00:11:58] And so [00:12:00] the web designer would be probably more, um, oriented towards the functionality of the site. Uh, of the website. So being like, you know, all of these click funnels and lead generation things that, that is more tech related. So, uh, in a way, I guess it's a good idea to look for someone who has an understanding of both. [00:12:24] Because then you get an aesthetically good looking website that also has the functionality behind [00:12:30] James: it. Right. Yeah, that's right. And that's why people like to hire me. Yeah. Because, uh, yeah, because I'm able to do, to do both. And, um, you know, from a UX and UI point of view, I'm able to kind of wireframe, uh, create like a blueprint and a map of, uh, the user experience as well, which is quite key. [00:12:51] I think a lot of web designers. Don't tend to think of that as well. Um, so it's not just making sure the website looks pretty, but also the [00:13:00] fact that you're thinking about calls to action, you know, your call to action buttons, getting people to book discovery calls or sign up to your mailing list. Or, [00:13:09] Sarah: yeah, so let's get in all of that because there's a lot to, to uncover. [00:13:13] So, so basically, yeah, we now know that there's both, right. There's the aesthetics and then there's the actual user friendliness and the. The functionality behind the site. So, so maybe before we go into the functionality, like what I, this is embarrassing, but like more than 15 years ago when I started out, I actually also designed some small websites for, for clients, you know, WordPress was like really new back then. [00:13:43] And so I quickly noticed how difficult of a job it actually is. Not so much big because of, you know, I was using WordPress. So it's pretty simple to put a website together, but where I always got stuck is with the [00:14:00] clients and their content, like the, the, the design of the site and their actual understanding of what needs to go on a site. [00:14:09] So I think that's also why there's. A lot of people, I don't know if that happens to you, but I know it happens to me that come with baggage and they complain about their website designer. They're like, it just didn't work out. Uh, and oftentimes it's because there is a miscommunication of who does what and in what kind of timeframe. [00:14:31] And so how can we help or, or, uh, to which level do we as the client have to be prepared? Uh, when we go to a website designer in terms of our content, in terms of knowing what needs to go on this website. [00:14:50] James: Yeah, so the content is, um, is a key thing in any website. And before, when I kind of started out, I used to kind of [00:15:00] rely on the client giving me the content and it doesn't always work out because what you've, you know, you designed a website and you put everything together and you made it look nice and you've put stock images there and you've put some. [00:15:12] Laura Ibsen text to kind of fill the gaps and you create a nice looking website and then the client either They do two things that either hand you Very little content. So there's hardly any text or any writing that they've put together themselves Or they can either give you too much Content so there's a lot to kind of pick pick out and put on the website And the information is is key because the information is what's gonna Sell your services. [00:15:40] So it's it's one of the most important things On a website and before when I started out, I used to always think about the design side and coming from a graphic design point of view as well. I used to always think about looking at making the website look pretty and probably less on the content, but as I've developed as a web designer and working with with coaches. [00:15:57] Now, I realized that, you know, [00:16:00] part of what we do is working with the coaches and having copywriters on board to help them create. Copy that is great to go on the website. Um, and that, you know, it's talking about their target clients, um, addresses, um, their pain points, um, and sells their services in a way that, um, reflects them, uh, in a, in a positive light, really. [00:16:25] Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:26] Sarah: Yeah. So, so you see the same thing is like, it can really be a, this idea. Oh, I need a website. But then once they talk to you or talk to any website designer, then they tell them, well, have you thought about, you know, who's your ideal client? How are you going to describe it? So it's like, it's this basically box of worms that all of a sudden gets. [00:16:52] you know, discover is like, Oh, I thought that was going to be quick and easy. And then I have, you know, all these other things that I now [00:17:00] need to look at and write about. [00:17:01] James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the planning stages is key with any website. Um, you know, sometimes clients will come to you and I used to have this a lot when I was starting out, you know, they'll say we need a website done in a week or two weeks or, you know, unrealistic deadlines and they're kind of rushing and they've got. [00:17:19] content ready and they're trying to create a website and they think that, you know, you can very easily create a website, you know, in a matter of a few days or a week and you can, but you know, it's like with anything, it's good to sit down and plan out, you know, the user experience, uh, wireframe and on paper, just, just even sketch out what, what kind of number of pages, the menu structure, uh, the calls to action, uh, what kind of information you're going to have, testimonials, um, All of that kind of stuff, social proof, um, and then layout, what kind of, what goes where, and think about that and spend time thinking about that [00:18:00] before you've done any kind of development or design. [00:18:03] That is a, is a must, I think now working with clients because we spend, we spend a good couple of weeks actually just, just on that. Um, when I work with clients now, uh, before we do any development work. [00:18:16] Sarah: Right. So take us into this user experience because you mentioned it a few times now. So, so what does that mean? [00:18:24] Take me on this journey. So let's say, you know, I'm landing on a website for the first time. Uh, I'm on the homepage. What needs to happen next? So take me through that journey. [00:18:39] James: Yeah, so when you're, when you've landed on a, um, homepage, for example, which is a, um, land, another word for landing page as well. So a landing page could be any page really on the website. [00:18:49] It's the first page that you're directed to. And often that is the homepage. But often you'll see a homepage and you'll see, you know, you've got the menu at the top. You've got your, um. [00:19:00] Items below it. So you would have like a hero image and you would have welcome to the website or whatever the company or person does on the website. [00:19:09] And then you'd have, you know, testimonials below it and you would have services, uh, what the coach does, for example, calls to action. Um, but it's. really mapping out clearly what goes where in terms of the information. So you want to be, for example, you don't want to be telling people about you necessarily what you do and how great you are. [00:19:33] You want to be talking about how you're helping them with their, with their problem, this problem solution. And you'll, you know, you, you've got a list of. your ideal client, you know, what kind of issues they're going through. Uh, for example, if they've, um, if you're in a corporate kind of coach, um, that's helping people that are coming out of corporate, the corporate environment, you want to say that, you know, uh, here's a, [00:20:00] this is what I do. [00:20:01] You know, are you coming out of a corporate job? Are you looking to start your own business getting into coaching, for example, and As soon as they see that at the top, you know, they know that this site is for them because people would immediately turn off in the first, you know, couple of three to five seconds. [00:20:18] If they don't see any benefit in, in, um, in the website and they'll just click, click off. So you have a high bounce rate as well. [00:20:27] Sarah: Yeah. It's actually in what we're just talking about this today in the humane marketing circle is the unique value proposition. You know, what it is you are offering To me, as the visitor to your website, how is it different from anybody else's offer? [00:20:44] And, uh, yeah, do I feel concerned? Like, yeah, do you speak to me or, you know? Yeah. Instead, do you just speak about yourself? And then I have to figure out if you're actually the right [00:21:00] fit for me. Um, [00:21:01] James: yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people make that mistake because. They want to say, you know, how great they are, you know, how many qualifications they've got, certifications, um, testimonials. [00:21:12] They want to, you know, literally tell the whole world about how great they are, but they forget about the client that they kind of helping. And what their problems are and really speaking to the client, you know, everything that you should be doing should be speaking towards your ideal client. And again, that's tied into the marketing side of things that you're aware of. [00:21:33] And a lot of web designers or graphic designers don't tend to think about that because it's a shame because a lot of web design and graphic design is quite separate from marketing. So coming from a background of both, I'm able to kind of use have both sides and think. You know, from a customer user point of view and think from a technical point of view, uh, and also from a design and colorful and making [00:22:00] everything look pretty kind of point of view as well. [00:22:02] So that it's a problem that I think we have in the industry where. In the whole kind of design industry where there's a miscommunication often between the marketing message and what you're trying to portray on an advertisement or a website. Um, there could be a misalignment there. Yeah. [00:22:24] Sarah: Yeah, I totally agree. [00:22:25] I think that the, you know, it's often a case in corporations as well, where they separate marketing from sales and, and here it's the same marketing should be part of it because that's essentially what you're doing with your website. You're not wanting to talk to yourself. You're wanting to talk to your ideal clients and everything you just said about the homepage. [00:22:48] I learned it's the same thing about on your about page, uh, on your about page, of course we think, Oh, it's about me. And yes, it is, but only in a second instance, it really [00:23:00] is again. Uh, people come to your about page because they want to find out if you're a good match for them. So they're really looking at the about page as a mirror much more than, you know, I'm so interested in this person that they don't know yet. [00:23:15] Right. And so it's kind of like just more like a checklist. Okay. Yes. This aligns this lines. Uh, and so it's the same thing for the about page. Um, so talk to us a bit more about the, uh, engagement. So. You know, it could be perceived that a website is a static thing because, you know, it just sits there. So how do we make it engaging, um, that actually people stay on it, first of all, you know, read our information and then maybe even go a step further. [00:23:50] How do we get them to stay in touch? [00:23:53] James: Yeah, I mean, One of the key things is not to put all of the [00:24:00] information out there in terms of content. So if you want to create engagement, for example, um, FAQs are a good example of this. So you don't want to frequently ask questions that you have. You don't want to sort of list them all out on the website. [00:24:14] You want to have options where people can click on a, on a question and they have a drop down and it tells them a little bit more about it. So anything that kind of people can interact with and engage with buttons that lead them on to another page, for example, that tells them a little bit more information. [00:24:31] So if you've got like a book, for example, that you're selling and you said, you know, do you want to buy this book right now? And then you clicked on the book and it just went to the purchase page. And it was just like. selling you the book, you know, from a buying point of view, it's not a great sales experience because you're not really giving them any more information about the book that they're buying. [00:24:51] So you want to create, um, almost like a sales funnel where you're, they click on, uh, to find out more about the book that you're selling, for example, [00:25:00] uh, how it can benefit them. Um, maybe give them like a free sample or demo, uh, That they can download like a PDF and then an option afterwards to then click and purchase. [00:25:14] So it's very much thinking about that user again, thinking about the user journey and experience rather than, you know, people are so desperate to kind of, you know, sell stuff, for example, or book a discovery call. And it's very much that you've got to kind of educate people. You've got to create that. Um, That trust, you've got to build that up, I think. [00:25:33] And you can't just rush into it. It's, it's, it's again, it's like us talking for example, now, and if we were at like a networking event and we met for the first time, for example, when you often meet people at networking events and, you know, they're just telling you how great they are and they're just like, do you want to buy my stuff? [00:25:47] Do you want to have a, let's book a call. Let's let's talk by my stuff. It's all me, me, me. And they don't really kind of create that opportunity where they, you know, you, you kind of. Meet them or add them on online or, um, go [00:26:00] to the website, find out a little bit more about them. And then a little bit later on, in the, in the kind of buying decision, you kind of decide that you want to work with them, um, rather than sort of rushing in. [00:26:13] It's kind of people kind of rush in. Um, [00:26:15] Sarah: yeah. Tell us how this would apply to the discovery call, because I like that a lot. So, so, um, and, and I'll share what I have in place, but yeah, I'd love to hear from you. Like, Okay. So I get it for the book. Yeah. How would you apply it to a discovery call? [00:26:34] James: So for a discovery call, for instance, you will, um, you've also got call to action on the site. [00:26:40] So I've got call to action. If people do want to book a discovery call straight away and they can click, you know, book a discovery call. So that's for people that have already made their decision. Um, so they've looked at your website, they've seen your homepage senior about page. Um, What you offer us is, you know, problem solution. [00:26:58] You can [00:27:00] help them with their, um, what their, whatever their problems are, issues are, and they've already made the decision to work with you. And they, you know, just click book a discovery call. So they're those kind of people are, um, sort of warm leads and they kind of, they're in that sort of. Uh, they want to buy from you and they want to buy what you're, what you, what you've got, but people that are, um, maybe need to be a bit more educated, for example, um, you'd kind of maybe I've got a few landing pages, for example, um, I've created for coaches where they could find out a bit more about me. [00:27:36] Uh, about what I do, the kind of clients that I work with. So it's kind of testimonials, social proof, um, talking through people, through, through the discovery process that I go through with clients. Um, and then they can, from there, they can decide to book a call at the end. So they can scroll right down to the bottom and then they can decide to book a call. [00:27:59] So those kinds of [00:28:00] people need, um, probably a bit more. educating and kind of getting to know you. Um, it just depends. I think if people are coming from online and if they've never met you before, then they're going to need a bit to know a bit more about you and probably add you on social media as well. [00:28:13] Follow you on, on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram, um, for, you know, at least a couple of months or, or, or whatever time period. And before they start working with you, uh, people that you've already met from online or networking or face to face networking, and they kind of know you and aware. The problems and solutions that you kind of solve. [00:28:36] Um, they're a little bit of more of a warmer lead. So they, they can, they just want to book a discovery call and they just want to talk to you. Right. Yeah. [00:28:44] Sarah: I would say the quality then also of this discovery, discovery call is, is very different. Um, if Someone comes to your site for the very first time and then just books a discovery call to me, those are often the clients [00:29:00] who just want to discover about, you know, website design. [00:29:04] Uh, so it's not like they are necessarily already. Um, on the gentle sales paths, like I call it that, that they don't know about you. They're not buying into you yet. They're just buying, they just need a website. Right. And it's like, Oh, this is one of them. Okay. Let me book a call. And then you're basically spending your whole time on this call, educating them, uh, instead of actually them, them educating themselves on their own time. [00:29:33] That's how I look at it. I'm like, well, I have all these things on my website. Spend some time there, you know, listen to the podcast, read the books, whatever, you know. There's a lot of information there. And then let's get on a call because otherwise, what often happens is we can spend our days on these discovery calls and then kind of end up being frustrated because, you know, people are just not there yet in [00:30:00] terms of where they are in their, um, sales decision. [00:30:04] Uh, and so that's, that's why often people who come to me and say, you know, I'm not closing. I'm like, well, you know, what do you have on your, I call them signposts. What do you have on your gentle sales path? Like your, um, like your templates that you're going to share with us for the landing page, right? [00:30:23] It's education like that, that then also leads to a better quality, uh, sales call. So, so yeah, I totally see that. Um, I also have an intake form. Where I didn't actually ask, you know, have you read, uh, my blog posts? Have you listened to the, so that I also come to this conversation knowing where they're at, because there's nothing worse than to be on a sales call and feel like being sold to, and, you know, and then. [00:30:52] After I do all this talking, they're like, actually, you know, I just want to talk to you and see how we can get started. [00:31:00] And so it's really good to pick them up [00:31:01] James: where they're at, right? Yeah. And also you don't want to be in that position of convincing them kind of thing as well. I think in my earlier days, I would often have to convince clients because, um, before I kind of niche down and work with. [00:31:16] Coaches and consultants and mentors and, you know, speakers and authors. Um, I used to work with quite a large variety of clients and I didn't really niche down in anything, so I didn't specialize in anything. So, um, I was seen more as a commodity. So, um, you know, it was all about price and it was all very much, um. [00:31:38] Yeah, fix it on price. So I'm kind of like, I lost track of where we were. Right. Checking around. Where were we? Sorry. Yeah, [00:31:46] Sarah: it's so important. Um, yeah. Any, any other things about the, you know, engagement and, and how to get more inquiries? Cause I think that's something that, you know, people [00:32:00] are really. Yeah, wanting to know more about, like, which part is content related and which part then is, like, we didn't talk about newsletter signups, right? [00:32:11] What are some mistakes you, you see there that, um, on websites related to that? [00:32:18] James: Um, I think a lot of times I think people have a newsletter signup and they don't really know what it is or, um, they don't really have a newsletter in place. So I think one of the key things is to have a just a mailing list. [00:32:34] Or a newsletter in place and tell people like, I've got one that's coming soon at the moment. So I'm just taking emails at the moment. So I actually don't have a newsletter at the moment. But a lot of the times people are just having a newsletter for the sake of having a newsletter. And I think you could have some sort of strategy behind it and know, because it is another way of bringing in leads. [00:32:54] Um, but it's not going to be straight away. Like, it's not going to be a, like, So today, tomorrow or next [00:33:00] week, you know, you you're still educating people about what you do. And it's again, it's the same with a blog on your website, you know, people come back and they will read your blog newsletters. So people are aware of, you know, your services, what you're offering, and they can see you on social media as well. [00:33:19] And if they've signed up to your newsletter, for example, as well, they see you quite active. So the more you're kind of, they're aware of what you do and who you are as a person, um, they, they have you in mind. So even if it's not for them, um, they will have you in mind for someone else. So as long as you're like that person that they think of when they think about sort of, um, You know, humane marketing, for example, um, and, uh, me being a web design consultant, working with coaches, um, you know, want to be like the first person that they think of. [00:33:55] So you want to have that, the newsletters were part of that sort of, that sort of [00:34:00] marketing strategy. Um, I think people don't often look at that hand in hand, like together, they just sit kind of separate. Um, but Anything that you do, if it's even if it's, you know, social media posts, um, uh, newsletters or blogging, you should always have like an end goal when you should always think about it from what, you know, what benefit are you giving to your clients? [00:34:27] Um, and it shouldn't really be just, you know, bragging about how great you are again with the website. A lot of times, you know, people are bragging about what qualifications or what things they're getting up to and what they're doing. As opposed to, um, how they're benefiting their clients and what kind of problems they can solve them for their clients. [00:34:44] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So let's say, okay, we have designed this, this website, we have the content, uh, everything is in place. And then, I'm sure you're used to that, the client's like, Oh, I need to change, [00:35:00] you know, this copy again and, and, and this and that. When, when do you hand the site over and is there, you know, can we still change it? [00:35:11] I think that's probably a question that people wonder is like, okay, uh, I've heard of WordPress, uh, you know, how easy is it to then change the site [00:35:21] James: myself? Yeah, so it depends. I mean, if the client either wants content or design changes, um, I have a, um, maintenance, uh, package that I offer clients that for the upkeep of the site and, uh, updates as well. [00:35:41] Um, so that could be an ad hoc kind of basis, um, or, or they could, yeah, pay as and when they need it. Um, but ideally, um, I also do videos as well. So I do a video to show clients how to edit the [00:36:00] site themselves. So they've got like that on their dashboard, um, how to upload images and text and change all that stuff. [00:36:06] But it just depends on the client. If they're You know, it's like a lot of coaches are too busy, so they don't have time to update their site themselves. So they either fall into two categories, the one that, you know, they do have time and they would like to do it themselves, or they're too busy and they don't, they would like you to do it. [00:36:23] So it depends on, on the, on the, um. So basically [00:36:27] Sarah: it can be changed, it just needs time. Yeah, yeah. Or you can do it for them and, and well, it takes money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always that equation. [00:36:38] James: But it should always be changed. I mean, I would do recommend for, you know, keeping a site regularly up to date, um, helps with your SEO, um, search engine optimization. [00:36:48] Um, you know, Google likes it when you've got up to date blogs and content on there. So a lot of times people will design a website, have it designed, and they [00:37:00] will just get excited and launch the website and make a lot buzz around it. And then within a few months or a year down the line, they've done nothing with the website. [00:37:10] So they've not added to the website and there's nothing new on their website. So from a search point of view, it gets ranked lower. Um, so the more engagement you've got on site, the more, um, people that are clicking on the site. So you want to constantly be putting content on the site and advertising on social media, for example, and plugging the site as much as possible. [00:37:33] Um, but it should always be Up to date in terms of content as much as possible. Um, but yeah, again, it's an, it's an additional charge. So once the site has been done and handed over to you, it's, um, it's an additional charge, it's kind of like. Decorating, for example, if this room that we're in, for example, if, you know, it's painted white, but if you wanted to paint it, you know, yellow or whatever, you know, there'll be an additional charge to purchase paint and do repaint the [00:38:00] whole room. [00:38:00] And then again, you want to pay it like orange or something or purple in a year's time. It's again, it can be done, but it's an additional. It's going to cost more time and money to kind of do that. Yeah, of course. [00:38:12] Sarah: So you mentioned, um, maintenance to me, there's two different things. There's maintenance, uh, which is kind of like updating the plugins and making sure it's the last, uh, and most recent WordPress, uh, addition, things like that. [00:38:28] Um, Or, you know, even backups and then there's updates, which is content updates or even design updates. So they're separate things like so like how much maintenance so purely functionality oriented maintenance does a website take once it's. [00:38:51] James: Yeah. So once a website is published, um, no matter what kind of software you're using, I mean, I build websites using WordPress. [00:38:59] Um, [00:39:00] if you could be using Wix or, or another software, for example, um, but it may certainly needs to be maintained in terms of security, uh, any kind of bugs that can happen on a site. Um, so it needs to be all anything plugin related that you've got any software that you use to kind of build, for example, if you've got, um, Um, I'm trying to think now, uh, scheduling software, any kind of, uh, appointment booking software, any additional plugins that are required. [00:39:29] If you've got Google, for example, or you've got Google site kit on there, uh, you've got Yoast SEO, um, on there. So you've got all these kind of different plugins, um, on there. They need to be kind of up to date and maintained. Um, otherwise they can kind of break the site as well. So if you've, uh, not updated a site after a while, if it runs into any kind of conflicts with plugin, um, Um, different plugins. [00:39:51] It can actually break the whole site. Uh, so you've got that as one issue. And then also you've got potential any, any site is vulnerable, [00:40:00] uh, online is vulnerable to being hacked as well. So, uh, twice to me [00:40:04] Sarah: already. So yeah. Yeah. So it's not like this. Thing that never happens. It [00:40:07] James: doesn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. So again, um, software in terms of security wise, um, needs to be monitored, monitored. [00:40:15] Um, so there's all that kind of stuff to kind of think about. And that's the more kind of techie kind of stuff. And that's the stuff that A lot of people don't like to kind of think about, but it's very important because obviously in terms of the longevity of the site, it's not nice to have a site that's being, being hacked. [00:40:32] Um, you know, so, um, it's always good to kind of, it's almost like insurance is always good to kind of just pay the extra to, to, to, to have someone do it. Or at least invest the time, you know, you could watch YouTube videos and learn how to do it yourself. But again, it depends if you want to spend the hassle time kind of learning that as well. [00:40:53] But it's the, it's [00:40:55] Sarah: the hassle of learning it, but it's also then the hassle of finding somebody who's [00:41:00] gonna fix your hacked site, right? Yeah. Where if you have kind of put aside some, uh, some for maintenance. Then that person somehow becomes responsible as well of, uh, having to fix the site or at least you'll come up with a fair price where if you just come to a new person and say, Hey, please, can you fix my site? [00:41:23] It's been completely hacked. They're going to charge you quite a bit to do that. [00:41:29] James: Yeah, yeah. Again, obviously with the backups, um, you know, all our sites are backed up. Um, content and design is backed up regularly. So if there is a problem, we can get back to a backup. Um, uh, so it's quite easily, uh, again, a lot of people don't back up their site. [00:41:49] So a lot of people, um, Sort of presume that's really done. And I've seen it in the past with clients that come to me and they've had cheap hosting in the past where they said, you know, they can get hosting for [00:42:00] like, I don't know, like 499, 599 or 10 pound, 10 or whatever it is a month or whatever it is. [00:42:07] And they think they're really happy with the hosting, but then they don't realize the fact that there is no added security or backups in place. And when something does go wrong, they All their content, everything is lost on the site again as well. And if you've got no backup of that all, um, you've got, for example, your blogs, if they're written in sort of Word documents and you've got them stored on, on your computer, it's good, you know, that's another backup. [00:42:34] Um, but again, you've got to go for the hassle of. You know, republishing everything, republishing everything and that sort of thing. So it's very, that's a hassle as well, you know. [00:42:44] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. All right. We want to end in a positive note, not in a, Oh my God, it's so scary out there. Um, yeah, just like everything. [00:42:55] Yes, everything can happen. It's, it's online and, and, and there is. That, [00:43:00] um, kind of tech stuff that, that happens. So, um, but yeah, like I said, let's, let's not end in a, in a negative note. Um, do you have a template that, um, you're sharing with our listeners? So. Why don't you tell us a little bit of what that is and where people can find [00:43:19] James: it? [00:43:20] Yeah, sure. Um, so I'll provide a link. Um, it's called the two week landing page challenge for coaches. So it's, um, a lot of people, a lot of clients just come to me that used to have, you know, trouble creating a landing page. And, um, I realized that I didn't really have. You know, if it's stuck in my mind and I like kind of can do it, but I don't realize that all this information was out there. [00:43:44] So I put it create like a template for people to kind of for coaches to download and very easily kind of put together. So, um, I'll provide the link for that. But yeah, it's just anyone else kind of. in the coaching space that needs to create a landing page to [00:44:00] sell a book that they're providing or um, a call to action, um, book a discovery call or any kinds of call to actions that they really just want to that specific key rather than providing it on the entire website. [00:44:12] They just want to specifically one pager, one pager. So it's a template that people can freely download. Um, and again, if you did want to book a discovery call with me and if you needed any help, I'm available to, um, help you out with any questions as well. [00:44:27] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. Thanks. We'll make sure we, we link to that. [00:44:31] And, um, yeah, your website is also in the, in the, um, in the text, uh, jamesmall. co. uk. Right. Uh, where are you most hanging out? [00:44:42] James: Sorry. And it's forward slash coaches to go on the actual coaching landing page. [00:44:46] Sarah: Okay. Great. And you're mainly on which social media platforms? So I'm [00:44:52] James: quite active on LinkedIn. [00:44:53] LinkedIn is probably the most best place. It's the best place to kind of connect with me and find out more about me and um, [00:45:00] just DM me and I'm always happy to talk. So. [00:45:02] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:45:10] James: What am I grateful for today? Um, I suppose I'm grateful for feeling a lot better and being able to eat normal food again. [00:45:19] Uh, cause I've had a ongoing, I've had an ongoing chest infection for the last couple of months. So yeah, I did kind of stop working for a little while and I couldn't eat some foods. Um, so I'm, I'm glad that I got my energy back and, you know, I'm able to kind of, I'm out of breath and I'm able to enjoy food. [00:45:38] Um, [00:45:39] Sarah: which is a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't realize it until we don't have it anymore. [00:45:44] James: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm actually going to a Retreat this weekend, helping my friend up, um, we were talking about it earlier. Um, so I'm going to be helping them out in the kitchen and there's going to be yoga and meditation and sound therapy there. [00:45:58] So yeah, I'm grateful [00:46:00] for being able to kind of take part in that as well. So, um, delightful. So yeah, I'm grateful. [00:46:06] Sarah: Thank you. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on to the show. Really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks, James. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you very much. Thank you. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode, especially if you're new to business and are needing to build your website. [00:46:26] You can find out more about James at jamesmall. co. uk. And as he mentioned, James also has a gift for us. It's a coach's landing page template, uh, which you can get at jamesmall. co. uk forward slash humane marketing. Uh, this is also a page where you'll find the two week challenge that, uh, James mentioned when he was speaking, James mainly hangs out on LinkedIn. [00:46:57] So make sure to send them a message [00:47:00] there, connect with him and tell him that you listened. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing. com You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing. [00:47:21] com 1 7 1, sorry, 1 7 0. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, uh, such as the Humane Business Manifesto, the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. [00:47:51] We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:48:00]

Picture this: you've aced the initial interview rounds, feeling pretty confident about your chances, when they hit you with the curveball - a presentation for the next round. You might be thinking, "Uh-oh, presentations aren't really my thing," or "What on earth am I supposed to talk about?" In this week's episode, Sarah and Emma break down the various types of presentations you might encounter in job interviews, why employers use them, and what they're looking for in your performance. We'll debunk some presentation myths and set the stage for you to feel genuinely confident in your preparation.

“Labor is an event of the mind, the body, and the soul. We have to make sure that we are preparing in each of those elements so that we can then know at the end of the day that we are true to ourselves.”Sarah, one of the founders of Birth Made Mindful, joins Meagan on the podcast today to talk about how to mindfully approach motherhood in the way that is best for you, your body, your baby, and your family. She also shares her Cesarean and two VBAC stories!Sarah and her sisters created the Made Mindful platform to help women find their own innate power from within. All VBAC Link listeners will receive 30% off any of their courses by using the code “vbaclink” at checkout on www.birthmademindful.com.Additional LinksBirth Made Mindful WebsiteSarah's YouTubeSarah's TikTokHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsReceive 20% off on Needed Products The VBAC Link Facebook CommunityFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hey mommas have you ever looked at the back of your prenatal vitamin and wondered if you are truly getting everything you need? I know I didn't when I was pregnant. Well today I wanted to share with you the #1 prenatal I suggest to all my doula clients, friends, family, and YOU women of strength. It's by a company called Needed. I honestly don't think I was the only one that didn't really understand just how important certain nutrients were for myself or or my growing baby. And that is why i love needed. They have gone above and beyond to create solid products not only that have the key nutrients but also have the optimal amount. Don't be overwhelmed picking a prenatal. Check out all Needes products, including their prenatals, pre/pro biotics, immune support and more at thisisneeded.com enjoy 20% off by using code VBAC20Meagan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. It is Wednesday and we have another great episode for you. Normally we have VBAC stories, but today we are going to be chatting about a lot of topics actually. We have our friend, Sarah. She is actually a VBAC mom and she has been on the podcast before so welcome, Sarah. Sarah: Thank you so much for having me today. Meagan: Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to have this discussion and this episode because it's something that truly we need to remember. I love sharing all of the VBAC stories of course. That's what this podcast is about, but it's also really good to get education and empowerment through other episodes. Review of the WeekWe are going to get into this episode after I share the Review of the Week. I'm going to tell you a little bit more about our friend, Sarah. This review is by spicyhotcurrie. I love that name. That's fun. It says, “The best education for all pregnant mamas.” I just love that so much because really, I mean, Sarah would you agree? At this podcast, we obviously talk about VBAC stories and how to empower people to make the best choices after Cesareans, but this really could be a podcast for all pregnant moms. Wouldn't you agree?Sarah: Absolutely. Meagan: Yes. We share so many tips. It's something that I wish I had when I was pregnant and preparing for my VBAC. Even if I didn't know if I wanted a VBAC, this would be a great podcast to listen to and see what options were out there and then even what led to Cesareans so I could learn how to avoid them. I love that topic. She says, “After one unmedicated hospital birth and one medicated hospital birth, my third birth ended in a physically and emotionally traumatic emergency Cesarean. The VBAC Link Podcast started soon after. I listened to them for over a year before getting pregnant. This podcast has made me laugh and cry and given me so much knowledge I didn't have even after three births and working in the postpartum unit at the hospital. This podcast has made me so excited for my VBAC in November. Thank you, Julie and Meagan.”This was back in 2020 so spicyhotcurrie, if you have your story to share, I would love to know. Contact us at info@thevbaclink.com. If you haven't left a review yet, we would love your review always anywhere you want to leave a review– Apple Podcasts, Google, or you can email us. Wherever it may be, we would love your review. Sarah From Made MindfulMeagan: Okay, Sarah. Welcome. Sarah: I'm just giddy to talk to you about birth today. Meagan: I am giddy to have you here to talk about birth. I don't want to share your story. I want to let you share your story, but I do want to tell everybody who you are. You are an amazing person, an amazing individual, and you're a mom of course. Of course, you're a mama of three now. Sarah: Three boys. Meagan: Yes, a boy mama. You're a birth coach, an educational coach, a doula as well which you guys, I'm just going to point out that Utah is amazing. I'm just saying that if you're in Utah and you're listening, you're spoiled. We've got some good doulas here. Let's see what else. You're the founder of Made Mindful, right?Sarah: That's right. Meagan: Made Mindful. Okay. Tell us more. Tell us more about that. Sarah: Made Mindful came out of all of our experiences, me and my two sisters, with the different births that we have experienced together. Meagan: It's Carly–Sarah: Carly and Christina. Meagan: Christina, yes. Carly and Christina. Sarah: That's right. Meagan: I love that you're all sisters. That's so cool.Sarah: We have our website, Birth Made Mindful. We want to encourage women and families to empower themselves with education, positivity, and most importantly, just believe that they have the strength within themselves to create the birth of their dreams. Meagan: Absolutely. I love that. It's so hard sometimes because it's so overwhelming. There's so much going on and we're getting so many opinions coming from all of the other places to know and you hear things like, “I wanted to do that but my body couldn't and this but I couldn't, and this but I couldn't,” so then we start doubting ourselves like, “Can I? Can I do that? Is that possible?” Don't you feel like that is happening all over the place? Sarah: It is. It's just an overwhelming amount of information that we have to sort through. I think that also adds confusion. When we can look inside ourselves, we can find out really what matters most important to our families and to us as mothers and blossoming mothers if we are first-timers. Knowing what our options are, knowing some of the medical events that could take place with birth, and then being able to be in tune with ourselves and our bodies to know how to proceed. Meagan: Absolutely. You have experienced very different experiences. Do you want to share just a little bit more about your experiences and what truly led you here?Sarah: I would love to. My first son was five years ago, his birth. My water broke prematurely. I wasn't in labor. After about 40 hours at the hospital, we had a Cesarean section. It wasn't an emergency at that time, but he was sunny-side up so I just wasn't having meaningful dilation. His Cesarean was necessary, but after that experience, I started looking back and just thinking, “I want to have a vaginal birth for my next birth.” I just didn't want to be in pain and have the recovery and some of the problems that stem from abdominal surgery right after birth. So I prepared a lot. I listened to your podcast. I just researched as much as I could when I was pregnant with my second son. It was right around COVID. His due date was March 20th, 2020 so about three days before his due date, my obstetrician let me know that she could no longer support me in a vaginal delivery. Meagan: Did she tell you why?Sarah: I share that entire story in Episode 132 so if you haven't had a chance to listen, it was just a remarkable story. I think it was mainly because of COVID. The hospital had updated their policies that all of the women in the queue for delivery that week and that month would either need to have an early induction or a repeat C-section and that they weren't going to be able to support VBACs. But because I armed myself with knowledge, I had gotten myself a doula, I just felt like that wasn't the route I wanted to go. I wanted to allow my body at least the chance for my first VBAC. I know that a lot of women even after having multiple Cesareans will attempt a VBAC but your chances of getting support in the medical system are a lot stronger the first time. So I knew that this was my window. I was actually able to find a midwife who took me on. This is just a couple of days before he is born. I ended up having a beautiful, redemptive VBAC at a birthing center. It wasn't short labor. He was actually also in a sunny-side-up position so it was about 30 hours. My wonderful, supportive midwife confirmed, “If you would have been in a hospital, they would have done another C-section in the amount of time it took you to dilate again with being sunny-side up and all of those twists and turns of our labor.” But we did have a VBAC and it was amazing. The feelings, the emotions, all of the energy that I felt, I literally wasn't tired for three days after his birth because all of those chemicals were appropriately working within my body. I was able to breastfeed and latch in a much easier way with that child so I knew that I wanted to start sharing my story and offer encouragement to other women. So in between his birth and then the birth of my next son which was about two years later is when my sisters and I put our knowledge together and created digital courses. We created affirmation cards and just decided that we were going to try to start sharing our message with all of our sisters and our community so that they could have great experiences in their birth. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: For my third son, we actually delivered with that same midwife but I opted for a home birth. The reason why I wanted to have him at home was mainly because of tracking contractions. There's always that question, “When do I go to the hospital? Am I too early? Am I too late?” If you show up and you're only 3 or 4 centimeters dilated, are you then a burden on your medical staff? And they're starting the clock if you're in the hospital. So I thought, “I wonder if I was just at home if my body would relax enough that there wouldn't be any halting from my body.” I just said, “It doesn't matter how long it takes. I'm prepared to labor as long as this baby needs.” I also had made peace with the fact that if we needed to transfer to a hospital, I would not feel like a failure. I would approach that with the understanding that I was going to the hospital and utilizing the tools and the help that I might need if we did need a transfer because a lot of people are afraid of what a home birth means if there's a transfer. Most of the time, it's not an emergency if there's a transfer that's needed. Meagan: Yeah. Really, most of the time it's due to a hangup and there are resources at a hospital that aren't at home anymore. We've exhausted our resources. Maybe there is a little bit of Pitocin that is needed. I say needed, but it is something that could help and they've exhausted breast stimulation with the breast pump or maybe it's been a really, really long labor and we're just tired, and that epidural is something that really can help to actually have that final outcome that we were looking for. It's just going to be in a different place. But it's rarely an emergency and it's okay. It is okay to transfer. It's okay to make that choice. No failing or giving up. They don't go together. There's no failing. Sarah: Exactly. Meagan: Just because there's a change of plans doesn't mean there is failure involved. Sarah: Yeah. That terminology is so tricky when people consider a transfer from your home as a failure but most women just choose to transfer to the hospital before they plan to push their baby out. So his birth was remarkable. It was a few days after his due date again. I had started feeling a little bit anxious about when he would come. I decided that I needed to release all of that. I went swimming and I just told him, “I know that you're safe, but I also want you to come as soon as you're ready.” My labor started that night. I could sense that the contractions were ramping up, but I wanted to rest as much as possible. I didn't want to have the mindset that I needed to walk around or be upright because with my prior births, it had taken me a full day and I didn't want to feel exhausted myself. So at about 1:00 in the morning, I went into the guest room so I wasn't waking up my husband and I just tried to sleep in between my contractions and it was successful. I was able to listen to some meditations and to find that quiet comfort within my bed. With sunrise, the contractions started ramping up and after about one hour of steady contractions, I thought, “It's time to wake up my husband. It's time to let him know that things might be started.” So after observing me for a few minutes, he decided that we should call the midwife right there. I definitely didn't think that I was ready because I had really only been in what I would consider active labor for an hour, but when our midwife came to my home, I was 8 centimeters dilated and they were ready to fill up the birth pool and have me hope right in. It was just peaceful and quiet. My midwife and her team almost seemed like they were just working in synchrony in the background. There wasn't any coaching. There wasn't any interruption to what I was experiencing and having my husband and I there. We did send our toddlers off to Grandma's house so that we could just have the house to ourselves. But it was amazing. I got in the birth tub and my water broke probably 20 minutes after that. And then after about 20 minutes of pushing, I was able to deliver him and just have that same concoction of hormones that just make you feel so elated, so happy, so grateful for your baby being born that immediately, any of those feelings of pain that come with pushing have gone and just being able to snuggle him there in my own home and be tucked in our own bed just minutes after. I felt like a home birth really was the birth of my dreams. I felt like a queen and it is what made me want to help encourage women to create the environment that they want so that they know that they are the leader of their birth. Yes. Oh, I love it. I love it. I love it.Meagan: I want to take a quick moment to hear about our partner Needed. The leading women's health supplement brand recommend by nutritionally trained practitioners. Needed was founded by two incredible mommas who were navigating their fertility journey. They were shocked to realize that 97% of women take prenatal vitamins, yet 95% of us are nutrient deficient. Is that not eye opening or what? Getting the right prenatal vitamin is super important. So how do we know what one is best. While most perinatal supplements include the bare minimum of the nutrients women and babies need, Needed has all of your needs covered from your prenatal vitamin, to pregnancy specific pre/pro biotic, immune lactation and nausea support, as well as supplements that help us with our protein needs, balancing our blood sugar, and helps with postpartum healing. Needed's Complete Plan delivers unparallel nourishment for every phase. Weather you are thinking of conceiving, pregnant, postpartum, or deeper into your mommy years like me, these supplements are amazing. I take the prenatal collagen protein every single day, and absolutely love it. Learn more about Neededs complete line of perinatal and women's health suppliants at thisisneeded.com use code VBAC20 for 20% off that is V-B-A-C-20 at thisisneeded.comMeagan: I really do love it. I really, really do. It's just so amazing. And it connects with me so well because of the same thing. After my second Cesarean, I learned more about doulas. The doula work just called to me. I was like, “This is what I want to do. I want to help people know that they can have different experiences.” One of the hardest things during our pregnancy journey is the preparation and knowing what preparation to do. There are so many things out there. You've prepared differently each time especially because you are preparing for different scenarios with different locations and stuff but are there any tips that you would have for birth prep in general and self-empowerment? How do you truly believe in your ability to do what you want to do and then create the environment to do that?Sarah: With my first son, I prepared with HypnoBirthing. I wanted to be able to find that meditative state so that I could move forward with an unmedicated birth but one of the disservices that the course instructor did for me was she said, “We're not going to study Cesareans because you're not going to have a C-section. We don't need to start focusing on that because it won't be an option.” So looking back, I would advise women to actually get as educated as they can with the medical system and know about inductions and know about options for inducing labor both natural and medical options regarding induction. But I also think one element that is most missing in the system is for our doctors or our providers to help us know that we have the power within us. We're not taught about the physiological process of birth so we don't understand that there are hormones within us and messages that our baby will signal to our body that it's time to start the process. Right? Knowing that our bodies are made to go through this and that everything is intended to stretch, I think that we can eliminate a lot of the fear that we have if we only believe that we will be successful with an epidural or with vacuum assistance. Just knowing that our bodies are made to birth our babies whatever size they come, whatever date they choose to arrive, that our bodies have the answers within them. I also think it's important to realize that the perception of pain is also internal. One thing that I have been learning a lot about is that our body only feels pain because of the messages that our brain then starts to comprehend. So if we begin to feel a contraction and our brain's message is, “This is wrong. This is bad. This has to stop immediately,” all of a sudden, we create an environment of tension and stress within us. This is the opposite feeling that we need in order for our baby to continue to dilate and for the baby to be born. So what I try to instruct women and families to focus on is that the contraction is the method by which the baby is going to continue to descend and it's the correct feeling that we should be having at the time. Now, I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's absolutely pain-free, but understanding that the waves are the only way for our uterus to contract and expel the baby then will give us power inside. We also have different pain-blocking receptors within our body. So as our contractions rise with each stage of labor as they start to get more intense through transition and then as we start to feel that natural urge to push, we have also been experiencing the counteracting force within ourselves of being able to block that pain. Then when our baby is born, having the skin-to-skin time completely erases all of those feelings that we had. So knowing that our bodies are perfectly designed to accommodate everything that we will experience gives us so much confidence that we can then proceed and we are able to labor as long as it takes. We are able to continue to breathe. One thing I like to think about as I'm experiencing a contraction, and one of the reasons I think that my labor was so much faster, was because every time I had a contraction, I would try to breathe as if I was allowing his head to push into my toes. I wasn't pushing, right? You're not supposed to push until you feel the urge to push, but I was allowing myself to think open thoughts so that my body could open and be in that state for cervical change but I was also trying to focus on the down and out of the baby being born.  When we have a contraction and we're not grounded or we're not prepared for those feelings or those really strong sensations, it's a lot harder for our bodies to then continue to progress in a way that is unhindered and allows us to feel safe and secure and that everything is a correct sensation. In both of my vaginal deliveries, I actually did not feel like transition was a stage of torment or suffering for myself. I know a lot of women say that they can start to feel when they are in transition. For me, that always came in the pushing element. When I felt that pressure, that's when I decided, “I really need to get grounded here because this is happening.” So for my third birth, I knew that the more that I can focus and feel what was happening inside of me and utilize those feelings to help push the baby, the sooner I can come through this situation. Right? Sometimes people talk about a hard scenario and they say, “The only way out is through.” That's another thing for labor where you have to go through all of those feelings. Meagan: Yeah and those feelings can be really intimidating, right? Really intimidating so through our prep, prepare for those feelings. Prepare for the way to change up your breath because there are those moments sometimes where it's like, “I don't know if I can do this,” and our shoulders raise and our faces tense. If we can breathe through that, breath is so incredibly powerful. It's so powerful. But if we can breathe through that, it can really, truly help. Just our breath alone and then like you were saying, how our mind relates to pain if we can change our mindset– this is totally not birth related but I am really big into cold water therapy like Wim Hof and all of the things. My husband and I converted our deep freezer into a cold plunge in our backyard and I will tell you, when I am in that, it's freezing. At 40 degrees, it's really cold, but when my mind connects to, “It is cold. It is cold. It is cold,” my whole body just trembles and I'm freezing. I'm telling myself, “It's so freezing.” I'm trying to work through it, but I can't. I'm just shaking. Then when I breathe and I'm like, “Okay. Calm down. You're okay. You're right here. You're strong,” and I start coming out of that space of fear and exactly what's happening if that makes sense– I'm telling myself that I am freezing. I am cold. I mean, I am cold but I'm also okay and I'm also going to get through this. It's crazy. I just did it with some friends and they witnessed it. They were like, “Wow. That's crazy.” I audibly have to say it out loud. I can't even just do it internally. They are like, “Wow. That is really cool.” It's the same with labor and with birth and all of these things. Sarah: Knowing that you are exactly where you need to be is what then will give your body confidence to do what it needs to do. I think that's why birth affirmations can be so positive because as we speak out loud, our brain believes what we say. So if you are in labor and you are saying, “I can't. I'm in pain. Make it stop,” all of a sudden your entire body starts to feel that tension and starts to feel that panic. But if we can use affirmations to say, “I am safe. I am secure. I am strong,” saying these things will then solidify to our bodies that that is how we feel. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to talk about changing plans and things like that. If we have a birth that is going another way which is maybe undesired, maybe a Cesarean or a repeat Cesarean. Maybe we're at home and we are transferring to the hospital or you wanted to go unmedicated and you're getting an epidural, I wanted to talk about the word failure and how impactful that word can be and how we have to offer ourselves grace. Do you have anything to say about that? Sarah: Absolutely. I think the first thing to do is to understand that when you share a birth story that didn't have the outcome of your desire, a lot of people will say, “At least there's a healthy baby. At least there's a healthy mom.” While those things are most important and unfortunately, the opposite can happen at birth. It's devastating. We also have to know that our mindset can control how we feel about an experience. So just as I shared that I had made peace knowing that a transfer to the hospital would not equal that I'm a failure, knowing that you have done everything that is within your power to achieve your main goal will help you then to feel like you've had the most beautiful birth. Sometimes I think that it's more about just knowing that you're respected and knowing that your wishes were granted during birth, that you had a birth partner or a support team that listened to you, and that made you feel like the goddess that you are in birth. Meagan: And heard. Sarah: And heard. Sometimes what we want is we want that epidural or we want that induction and we have reasons within ourselves knowing why we want the birth that we want. When we can create an environment within ourselves that then fosters that, that's when our birth feels like it's unstoppable. That's when we know that we have achieved everything that we set out to do. I think one important way to prepare in that regard is to do what I call a fear release. When we're thinking about all of the options that can go wrong, we tend to stop that thought immediately because we don't want to think about a worst-case scenario. We don't want to fill our minds or our bodies with that negativity but if we can approach it before it happens and we can actually say, “What is my plan? If my water breaks before my labor has started, what is my plan? If dilation isn't happening at a good rate, what are my options? Can I get a Foley bulb? Is Cervadil an option while I am laboring?” we can actually walk down the path of each of our fears and we will start to see that we have the same amount of knowledge essentially that our providers have in what paths would be available. For me, I was writing everything down and every single thing that I would feel prior to birth. If I was feeling frustrated, if I was feeling scared, if I was feeling nervous about adding another child, “How am I going to take care of all of their needs?” all of those things are real and can feel overwhelming. If we don't have the support externally, then we have to find where we stand within ourselves. Labor is an event of the mind, the body, and the soul. We have to make sure that we are preparing in each of those elements so that we can then know at the end of the day that we are true to ourselves and that we have listened to the promptings that come and that we follow what makes us feel like we are driving the car that will get us to the destination of our baby's birth. Meagan: Yes. So in saying that, we have to act on the promptings that we feel and sometimes it may be something different than what's being suggested. For a long time in birth, I didn't realize that I could say no or could say, “I would like to do this,” or “Talk to me about this,” and have that discussion and that active conversation about what I was feeling. With my second C-section, I didn't want to go down to the OR. I didn't want to have a repeat Cesarean and I didn't feel like I could say much more than, “Okay, let's go.” So I want to talk about that. We have these feelings and then how do we act on them? Obviously finding that supportive provider and having that supportive team, but then how do we find the courage within ourselves to say, “Hold on. I hear you. I hear what you're saying, but I would like to talk about this,” or “My heart is telling me this. Can we talk about that?”Sarah: I think the first step that we take is knowing our rights. Just like you said, if we have a provider that is suggesting an intervention. Maybe it's a position that doesn't feel comfortable to our bodies. We have to know that we are allowed to say no and that when informed consent is a part of our birth plan, we can always ask them what the options are. So if someone comes in and says, “Your labor hasn't progressed for 4 hours. You don't have anymore dilation. It's time for Pitocin,” we can say, “What are my options? What might happen if I do not choose to have Pitocin at this time? Is it something that we can look into 2 hours from now?” Because I have had a hospital birth that ended in a C-section and then my other two births outside of a hospital, I recognize that it's not always as easy as we might think if our providers are–Meagan: Pushing back. Sarah: If they're pushing back and if they have a protocol that they have to follow based upon their hospital. Those are put in place to protect them as providers with liability and also to protect mothers and babies, right? No doctor would want to take a risk for a mother and a baby but when we feel like the request that we have should be honored and that we can ask those questions to then receive a response that we are able to then come together and work as a team. Knowing that everybody who is there really does want the best for you and your baby, knowing that you might offend someone by letting them know that, “Hey, I don't want this to happen at this time,” but that you have the right to do that and that if needed, you can actually switch providers. For me, that was very scary. Meagan: A couple of days before. Sarah: It was a stressful event to have to be finding someone. I went to a few other obstetricians and they said, “You're far too late. You're too far along in this pregnancy to be coming to me.” That's when I decided that even if having a VBAC outside of the hospital presented an added element of risk because I might have to transfer to a hospital if something went awry, I knew that was the route that I needed to take in order to achieve what I felt like was my right to attempt a VBAC. I love the work that you're doing because so many women, as they are deciding if they should have a C-section or if they can try for a VBAC, find that there are roadblocks that are in our way. I don't want to say all of the time, but a lot of the time, our providers want the very best for us, but some of their suggestions might not be what helps us achieve a VBAC. One example I can think of is an early induction. Right? We know that the highest chance for a VBAC is for spontaneous, vaginal delivery to occur and yet we are also under pressure for our babies to be delivered by 40 weeks. Meagan: Or 39 even sometimes. Sarah: Or 39. And just as a woman's menstrual cycle is not always a 5-day event or our cycles aren't always the same amount of days– Meagan: 14 days apart, yeah. Sarah: Exactly, that maybe you knew exactly the date you conceived or you had IVF so you knew exactly when your egg was implanted, it's very hard to know if that 40-week date is accurate. Both of my VBAC babies were born at 40 weeks and 3 days. To me, that's interesting because I think, “Maybe my body is regulated enough that that is just when my babies are developed.” You know? So knowing that if a provider is telling us, “You have to have your baby by 40 weeks,” we can say, “What are my options if I choose? Can I take a non-stress test after the 40-week mark to find out how my amniotic fluid is doing and to make sure my baby is healthy and strong?” Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: And if you do find that there are complications, then there is no regret when you have the induction at that time. Meagan: Right. Yep. Sarah: Or when you seek medical assistance or when you elect to have that repeat Cesarean because you knew that your wishes were honored and that you were able to be number one. Meagan: An active participant of your birth. Being an active participant in your birth is so important. Like she said, if you choose an elective Cesarean, that's okay because you were a part of that decision making or if you choose to be induced or if you choose to keep going or whatever it may be, being an active participant in your birth can truly impact the way you reflect in your postpartum experience.Last but not least, I would love to talk about the postpartum too. I think we would both agree that a lot of the times– I don't want to say this with everybody preparing to give birth, but I feel like it's very much so in the VBAC world, we are so focused on how to get a VBAC, a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, and how to have this end result that we forget about what comes after the birth whether it's a vaginal birth or Cesarean. We are so focused on how to get this birth and this outcome that we forget what happens in that last period. Sarah: Exactly because our bodies know how to birth a baby without the knowledge that we possess. Even after we gain all of this knowledge, it really is our body's job and our baby's job to be born. But the postpartum period then falls all the way back on the families. So if you're not prepared, if you don't understand what will be happening physically within your body and how long it takes to heal, you could find yourself underwater at that time. Your baby requires food every few hours so if you're attempting breastfeeding and you're having struggles with breastfeeding, all of a sudden it feels like the postpartum period is harder than the birth for a lot of women. We have a separate course for the postpartum period. We call it “The Fourth Trimester”. In it, we dive deep into sleep both for parents and for infants. We talk about breastfeeding or feeding your baby if you elect formula. We go into postpartum depression and anxiety and really just try to help women understand that the time to prepare for the postpartum period is during pregnancy. It's not just the 38th week of pregnancy because your baby might come at that time. I remember with my first son, my hospital bag wasn't even packed when my water broke because it was in that 38th week and I thought I still had a few more to go. Everybody said that first-time moms always go overdue. So even knowing that the La Leche League offers free consults over the phone at any time of the night or day, knowing that alone is just a resource that we can use. I have to tell you for my third birth, I thought, “Okay. We will just have this set. Everything is going to go swimmingly,” and my little baby boy just was not latching correctly which causes so much pain as you're trying to nurse but it also caused one of my breasts to be engorged in a way that he wasn't extracting the milk but I was still experiencing those letdowns. So after a few days of just struggling– and I had met with the hospital lactation consultant– and feeling like, “I don't have the resources I need,” I met with women from the La Leche League multiple times and finally, one of the pieces of advice that she gave us was the turning for my son. She mentioned, “When you sit down to feed your baby, you're not going to think of it as a feeding session. You are going to try latching.” She actually gave me a number. She said, “I want you to try 20 times to latch.” I thought, “That is way more than I have been trying.” I usually start to feel defeated after the 5th or 6th time of trying to get this all to work. Then she said, “Your baby might be angry. Your baby might be hungry, so feed them an ounce of milk from the bottle or spoon feed however you want to feed them, and then try again 20 times on the other side.” I cannot tell you what a difference this made knowing that I was going to sit down and try 40 times to latch my baby. After the 8th attempt, he latched and we never had problems again. All that it took was for me to change my mindset as far as what I expected. Right? So even though I was an experienced mom, I had breastfed before, my little baby is just learning this for the first time. He's awfully small. He has the reflexes to suck, but he needs to be trained just as much as I do. We had to come together and work through that. I don't think that I could have made it happen without the support of the La Leche League. A lot of the time I think, “There are always excuses,” when we're in the postpartum period when we're tired or we don't have a store open when we need something and Walmart is closed at 11:00 and all of a sudden, you're having a fight with your partner in the middle of the night because you're not prepared so knowing just the amount of supplies that you're going to need and how long you're going to bleed after birth, all of these little details can be really overwhelming. Thank heavens that we have more people talking about it. We have companies that are responding to these needs. I think that we have more individuals offering support at this time where they say, “Oh, I”m just going to buy you that gift basket that has all of the support that you'll need.” Having a friend that can bring over their old nursing bras that they're not using anymore so that you're just ready to go with the supplies that you need, can make your postpartum period feel like you are off to a great start. Meagan: Absolutely. There was something you had mentioned too, and this goes for birth, where you were like, “I never had problems before. I nursed my other babies just fine and this baby's brand new and a new experience.” That goes with all things in life and with birth and postpartum. Just because we birthed this way or this is how our birth went or this is how or breastfeeding journey or this is how my postpartum went, doesn't always mean that we shouldn't prepare for the next baby and the next birth and the next postpartum. It doesn't always go exactly the same. Then also, remember these babies. Yes. Is it instinctual? Yes. They know where to get milk but again, their mouths are different. Everything is different so it can change so having patience and getting to that spot where you get to your nursing station, you take a deep breath in, you are taking a deep breath out, and you try 40 times. You are trying and not letting number three get so infuriating because your baby is going to feel that too. Your baby is going to feel that stress. It's the same thing in birth where if we have someone bring in some stressful feelings, we're going to all react to that. Our bodies react so remember to find your breath, find what you need to do, and have the patience to walk through that.Sarah: The reason we named our company Birth Made Mindful was because the word mindful in and of itself just means that you are taking in everything around you and you are allowing yourself to feel without judgment what is happening. It's the hardest thing whether you are in birth or whether you are having a challenging experience as a mother, just know that you have enough time to pause, you have enough time to think, and to really find out what answer feels right to you. What is your heart telling you? What is your mind telling you? Can those two things come together in a way that then you can make a decision that will empower you? I've been writing the book for our company, “Birth Made Mindful”, and it has just been an amazing process of going even a level deeper than just a digital course to explain to women that they have the strength within and that each of us is powerful. We are champions. I love the phrase “birth warrior” but I don't want anybody to feel like they have to have their sword and their shield as they go into birth. We want it to be more of a collective feeling where all of us are working together so that we can have an experience that will then launch us into motherhood or maybe it's our second child so launching us into having multiple children in a way that will really give us vibrancy. It gives us energy. It gives us meaning in motherhood and the support that we know that we can do it. It really does come from having an understanding of where we are at inside and allowing anything that doesn't feel congruent, that we can work through those things and we can then find out where our true passions lie and make sure that we honor ourselves and honor our desires. Meagan: Our intuition. Oh, well tell everybody where they can find more about your courses and your blogs and hopefully soon, your book. Sarah: Yes! We are at birthmademindful.com and most of our social media handles are at Made Mindful. That way we can cover Motherhood Made Mindful as well as we continue to grow our course offerings and continue to try to help our community find joy in birth and motherhood. That is our mission to have every family feel like they are armed with knowledge and that they have all of the support that they need to take on the most important event of their lives. Meagan: Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing a little bit more about your other birth story and sharing these tips with the listeners. It really is so important to prepare our mind, our body, and our soul for all of the experiences. Obviously, we know that things happen sometimes and there are going to be unexpected things that come but even through preparing and being in that space and taking that time to say, “Wait, what is happening?” just processing it in the moment and having the question be asked can help you as well for after. I love that you talked about doing the fear release. We talk about doing the fear release too. Sometimes we don't realize that we have traumas because we don't look at it as a super traumatic experience but then as we walk through our birth and things, we realize, “Oh, that might be a traumatic thing I need to process. That's a fear,” or “Maybe it's not traumatic but it's a fear of mine. It's enough to hang me up.” So it's important to walk through these situations as well. I think it's awesome that you offer the two courses. Postpartum. Obviously, I love VBAC and I love the prep but there's so much to postpartum that is just forgotten about so I think it's really important that we talk more about that so thank you so much. Sarah: Absolutely. We want your listeners to get a discount when they come and buy your courses. So they enter VBACLINK into any of our courses, then they'll get 30% off of both of those courses if they want to come to check it out. Meagan: Wow. That is amazing. Sarah: We just hope to continue to provide education, knowledge, and support to families. Like I said, birth is a transformative event. It's the day that your baby is born but it's also the day that a mother is born. In this day and age, we need all of the help that we can get. Meagan: Absolutely. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. Sarah: Thank you so much for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Today's episode features a special guest, Mark Schaefer, a globally-recognized keynote speaker, futurist, business consultant, and author. Mark and Sarah delve into the significance of community in today's world and its role in humane marketing. They explore the difference between a community and an audience, the importance of letting go of control as a community builder, the struggles of building a community, and the potential synergy between AI and human communities. They also discuss effective strategies for attracting new members, common mistakes made by community builders and how AI fits into the picture of community. As entrepreneurs, understanding the essence of community building and the benefits it offers can help us create meaningful connections and grow our businesses sustainably. He studied under Peter Drucker for three years and has advanced degrees in marketing and organizational development. Mark holds seven patents and is a faculty member of the graduate studies program at Rutgers University. His blog and podcast -- The Marketing Companion -- are at the top of the charts in the marketing field. Customized for every audience, Mark's inspiring and memorable programs specialize in marketing and strategies for digital marketing, social media, and personal branding. His clients range from successful start-ups to global brands such as Adidas, Johnson & Johnson, Dell, Pfizer, The U.S. Air Force, and the UK Government. Mark is the bestselling author of 10 path-finding books including the first book ever written on influence marketing. Mark's books are used as textbooks at more than 50 universities, have been translated into 15 languages, and can be found in more than 750 libraries worldwide. In this episode, Mark and I discuss: Why community is more important now then ever before The difference between a community and an audience The role of the ego for community builders The struggles of building a community AI and human communities: can they work together? And much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:30] Hello friends. Welcome back. We arrived once again at the seventh P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Today's conversation fits under the P of. Partnership. If you are a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan that comes with [00:03:00] the seven Ps of Humane marketing@humane.marketing slash one page. [00:03:06] The number one and the word page, and this truly is a completely different version of the seven Ps of marketing that starts with yourself. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps. And so, like I said, today's. Conversation fits under the seventh p the P of partnership, and clearly that's a new P that I added. [00:03:32] It didn't exist in the original sixties version of the seven Ps of marketing. In today's episode, I'm joined by my colleague and fellow marketer, mark Schaffer. Mark is a returning guest as I've spoken to him twice before, since we're fellow introverts. And so he came once to speak on my. Previous podcasts, the one, two podcasts before. [00:03:58] So not the [00:04:00] gentle marketing podcasts, but the one before that, and where I was mainly talking to introverts. I'll dig out the episode. Link so you can go listen to that. So mark spoke to me about being an introvert in business and marketing, and then I had him come back also to talk about his book Marketing Rebellion which actually came out just before. [00:04:22] Weeks before marketing like we're human, which was then called the Gentle Marketing Revolution. So clearly we're kindred spirits, not just personality wise, but also otherwise how we think. Again, we didn't talk about this, but he came out with Marketing Rebellion and for me it was marketing Revolution. [00:04:45] So I'll tell you a bit more about Mark in just a moment, but. Since today's topic is all about community, I want to take a moment to tell you about our community, the Humane Marketing Circle, and what we've been up to in the last [00:05:00] few weeks and months. So the Humane Marketing Circle is a growing community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs. [00:05:08] Here's the theme again, with the rebellion or the revolution. So we're a community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who are ready for something different, something fresh and new, a new way of marketing, and a new way of business building, and also a new way of being in community. We now have. Four monthly gatherings, two meetups in which we discuss marketing, one 90 minute business or marketing related workshop with an expert or someone from the community. [00:05:40] So I always try to find experts within the community because we're all experts. And then every now and then if I don't find someone in the community, I'll go and look outside. We're also starting this month with an. Extra call we, that we call net weaving, so it's not networking, but [00:06:00] net weaving which we focus on, in which we focus on forming friendships between members that then lead to new business op. [00:06:08] Opportunities, collaborations, referrals, et cetera. But the main focus is to be human in these net weaving calls. Really just let go of the mask and show up as humans in our comfy clothes and on our couches and sofas, and just build friendships that then eventually lead to new business opportunities. [00:06:31] Here's how our community meetups work. So those are the two regular monthly meetings that we have. One of them I lead and one of them is led by one of our three community ambassadors. In the first half of the call, members bring their questions and we have a conversation about what. It works for us in marketing. [00:06:54] For example, one of the last calls we talked about AI and we share [00:07:00] tools and discussed benefits, dangers, overall ethical questions. We also, just on the last call, we talked about the gentle sales path and what members are doing in terms of bringing new people into their gentle sales paths. And so we take turns, we raise our hands and take turns and everybody. [00:07:19] Is really a leader in the, in their chair, and they get to learn from others and also share. And in the second half of the call, we go into breakout rooms and we have a more intimate conversation with other heart-centered entrepreneurs, which is super valuable because we don't often get this, you know, brainstorming and kind of feedback from other entrepreneurs. [00:07:46] And for example, this month our topic is the P of people. So I always bring a question for the breakout rooms and We discussed, for example a limiting belief that holds our people back. So [00:08:00] what's a limiting belief that holds our clients back? And then we took turns in sharing that in the small breakout room. [00:08:07] So that's the format. Of our meetups. Then we've also successfully transitioned to our new community platform on Kajabi, and I have to say I'm super pleased with it. It's such a lot of fun. We had our first live call directly. In our live room, in the community, so not on Zoom but directly within the Cajabi community, which makes it really safe and it feels like you're really unique to us. [00:08:37] So rather than being on Zoom, which we kind of all use, but it, it has become this tool where. We somehow we show up in our business mindset where if we're all of a sudden in our own platform and we have a call, and it just really felt like, oh, this is, this is our [00:09:00] home. We're hanging out in our home. [00:09:01] And that's what members also mentioned. There's still a few bugs that were working out, but All in all, we love this new community platform on Kajabi, and we're just truly embracing it. And then, as I said, Eddie, our community facilitator will lead his first NetWeaving call really a, a fun call to foster friendships between members that then lead to business opportunities. [00:09:27] I'm super excited to have him on board. It's interesting because Mark, you'll hear him say in. In our podcast episode, you'll hear him say that it's good to hire the youngest member you can find, or the, the youngest person you can find. And so that's exactly what I did with Eddie. He's a millennial probably even. [00:09:48] Younger than millennial. Millennials are now kind of like, oh, they're, you know, they aged as well. So he's, he's 27 and he just brings such a new perspective, such a [00:10:00] different way of being in community, which yeah, which we all love. So it's been great. So I created a, a special may coupon code for you if you'd like to join us now and save 15% on your monthly membership rate for as long as you stay. [00:10:16] So if you feel like now's the time, you can use the coupon code may gift. So, m. A Y G I F T on the checkout page by going to humane.marketing/circle. And this code is valid until May 31st, 2023. So with that, let's go back to our conversation with Mark. About communities. But first, let me tell you a bit about Mark. [00:10:46] So Mark Schaefer is a globally recognized keynote speaker, futurist, business consultant, and author. His clients range from successful startups to global brands such as Adidas, Johnson and Johnson, [00:11:00] Dell, Pfizer, the US Air Force, and the UK government. Mark is the bestselling author of 10 pathfinding books, including the first book ever written on influence marketing. [00:11:11] Mark's books are used as textbooks at more than 50 universities have been translated into 15 languages and can be found in more than 250 libraries worldwide. In today's episode we talked about why community is more important now than ever before. The difference between a community and an audience. [00:11:34] The role of the ego for community builders, the struggles of building a community, how hard it is really to get people together and host the space. And finally we also talk about AI and the role of AI in human communities and how they can work together, cuz that's actually the third part of Mark's new book, belonging to the Brand.[00:12:00] [00:12:00] Let's dive in with Mark. [00:12:34] Court. Good to see you, mark. I, I just said, let's just hit record because we're already sharing all, all this, this good stuff. So we are, we are excited to have you back on the show here. Really looking forward to talking to you about community. Your latest book has a lot of bookmarks already. [00:12:57] Definitely excited. Belonging to the [00:13:00] brand by community is the last great marketing strategy. So let's dive right into it. Most people on, on my show already know who you are. So I'm not gonna go into tell me who Mark Schaffer is and all of that stuff. Why is community so essential and why now? [00:13:18] Mark: I think that's, that's the question is, is, is why now? [00:13:22] Because community has, has always been essential. There's a great quote in the book. From a, there's a great marketer. He was with Coca-Cola, he was with Airbnb, Jonathan Milton Hall, and Jonathan said, look, when our ancestors were gathering around the fire, it, it wa it, it was to create this sense of belonging. [00:13:44] We've always longed to belong a lot of the social structures in our world today. You know, have, have just collapsed, especially here in America. A lot of the ways we used to gather and, and find that community are gone. A lot of that [00:14:00] was made a lot worse during the pandemic. Now I wanna go back a step and assure people this isn't like a touchy-feely, fluffy book about, you know, You know why we should all be in a community. [00:14:14] This is a business book with, I think, a very strong business case of why businesses should view community as part of their marketing strategy. Community isn't new from the first days of the internet. Businesses tried to create communities. Most of them failed because they were set out to like sell more stuff. [00:14:39] People don't really want to gather to buy more stuff, so they didn't really work. Most of the communities today, about 70% of the communities that actually work today for businesses are focused on transactions, customer self-service, which is fine, but the point of my book is that. [00:15:00] The, the purpose of branding is to create this emotional connection with our customers. [00:15:05] A feeling, a meaning that keeps them connected to us. And there's no more powerful way to do that than community. And I show a lot of data. I have a lot of case studies in the book that kind of prove this while we're focused on. You know, customer self-service, which is what most communities look at, look at today. [00:15:28] We're missing bigger opportunities like collaborate, collaboration, co-creation, customer advocacy, sharing information quickly. These are all massive benefits that are going away in other marketing channels. So number one. This is a business book about marketing that works. But I also point out this is marketing that heals, which is a unique aspect of this idea. [00:15:57] Mm-hmm. Because as we talked about, we've got [00:16:00] this mental health crisis going. Everywhere in the world. I don't know what it's like for you in Switzerland, but here it's in the news every day, especially with our young people today. And so we're longing to belong. We need to belong. And if businesses would look at really effective communities from the brand marketing lens, it not only works, but it can actually have a very positive impact on our customers and even the world. [00:16:31] Yeah. [00:16:32] Sarah: And it's so interesting because in our pre-recording talk, we, we discussed, You know, I, I mentioned that I was gonna actually go all in and create a live event, and, and I mentioned that I have a place in Sicily, and you were like, oh, I like Sicily. And it reminded me of one of the stories in your book, and I think it's in the beginning of the book, where you talk about this store, this shop that I think it was actually led by a Sicilian, or [00:17:00] originally Sicilians, right? [00:17:02] Yeah. Mm-hmm. That, and they still have this. Shop. Yeah. So tell us the story about, because it it, and I tell you what I told my husband and, and really that's still the feeling that we get in Sicily. Like it really is still like that. Yeah. So tell us that story. Well, we don't [00:17:19] Mark: have that. It's, we don't have that feeling in a, in America or most places, so, yeah. [00:17:23] So. You know, when when I was a little boy, it was always a special occasion when my grandfather brought something back from, he, he would call it the Italian store. And so I, I got to go back. This store has still been there since 1903. Three brothers. Came to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and they started making pasta, handmade pasta, and now they, it's still in the same family. [00:17:53] Mm-hmm. And the family members make a point to be there in the store, you know, interacting with [00:18:00] customers. Mm-hmm. If you, if there's any, they, they also do like a lot of Shipping and stuff of their specialty products. And if there's ever a problem, I mean, one of, one of those family members is paying attention to it. [00:18:12] You know themselves, well, I, I, I was away from this store for like 40 years, came back, visited Pittsburgh and I, I went to this, this area. Which used to be like a, a, just like a warehouse area, you know, really kind of busy and, you know, dirty Now it's a, it's a big tourist area. Mm-hmm. And the store is still there. [00:18:34] Same old wooden floors. This, all the signs are handwritten all over the stores and, And you know, I walk in and they've got this huge class case with 400 different kinds of cheese, just magnificent and smoked sausages and all these things that they're bringing in from Italy and, and you know, most, mostly Italy, but some other parts of the world. [00:18:58] And I go there and [00:19:00] the people at the counter. Know the customers and they're asking about their, their family and their husbands. And, and one lady was there and her husband had had a health problem and the lady said, well, we just got his favorite kind of cheese. Let me wrap that up. Take it home to him, you know, that maybe this will make him feel better. [00:19:20] And then the lady looked over to the corner and there's some, some of her friends sitting there, she went over to talk to them. And I just felt so sad. Because I've never experienced this. Hmm. And I'm just one generational away, right from this is how all business was done. And I just longed to, to, to walk in a place where people would know me and connect with me and to me. [00:19:49] Shopping is just anxiety. I, I, I don't even, I don't want to go anyplace. Right. You know, it's just a process for me of being overwhelmed and disappointed. So I'm, you know, that's [00:19:59] Sarah: [00:20:00] the introvert in us, right? We're [00:20:01] Mark: like, no, thanks. Yeah. You and I, you and I had a special show on that a few years ago. Yeah. Right. [00:20:06] Yeah. Yeah. After I shop, I just wanna go home and crawl under a blanket. Oh yeah. So so, so it, it's this idea of. We've always had this inside of us. This it's, it's in our D n A, it's this tribal sort of thing is on a deep psychological and sociological level. We have got to belong. And Sarah, this was one of the elements in my life that. [00:20:35] Provoked me that drove me to write this book. A few years ago, there was a headline in the New York Times that said The Loneliest Generation. Mm-hmm. And was referring to Gen Z. And it just, it just broke my heart how our children and these teenagers, they're just suffering. Suffering. They're so isolated and lonely and depressed. [00:20:59] And[00:21:00] as I said, look You know, this is a business book, but it's also a way I think we can at least. Be aware of these issues in our world and think about how this can have a positive impact on, on, you know, everybody today, not just young people. Young people. They're finding their own communities. I talk about this at the end of the book. [00:21:22] You know, they're, they're, they're moving into their own communities and to the extent that. Companies, and not just companies. Why I say companies. It could be a nonprofit, it could be a university, you know, it could be, you know, whatever. A, a un an insurance company, a symphony, whatever, a nonprofit the, I think the com, the, the organizations that are the most human, which I know is something close to your heart. [00:21:48] The companies and the organizations that are the most belonging. How, how would it look like in your. Company in your culture, in your marketing, if you thought we're gonna be [00:22:00] the most belonging company, it, it, it, it sort of, you know, presents an interesting idea of how you might approach marketing in a, in a different way. [00:22:11] Yeah, [00:22:11] Sarah: absolutely. So, and, and that story about this Italian shab, it's not just a beautiful story, but it's a, an excellent business case. Yeah. Cause. You know, how hard is it for a small shop like that to survive and them still existing after 40 years? Well, It has to have to do [00:22:30] Mark: something. Community. It's, it's been well, they've been there since 1903. [00:22:36] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Not just, I was Generat four. Yeah. It had been 40 years since I had been there. Right. Yeah. But it's it's the same store. Yeah. They, they, yeah. It's, it's bigger now, but yeah. It's the same, it's the same store. [00:22:50] Sarah: Yeah. No, absolutely. I, I have a feeling like reading the book and I so resonate with this. [00:22:58] Because just like [00:23:00] anything in marketing marketer, marketers have a tendency to grab the latest Conta concept. So let's just say, okay, mark Schaffer, yay. He writes about communities, right? Yeah. And six months later, that's the latest marketing thing, right? It's like, just like we did with authenticity, just like we did with vulnerability, marketers are really good at jumping on these words and then abusing the crap out of them. [00:23:30] Yeah. And so what I really liked about your book, and you mentioned it several times, is this concept of letting go of control that. You cannot control a community growth. You cannot Yeah. You know, somehow market or Yeah. Kind of manipulate a community. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, talk to us about that. [00:23:56] Mark: Well, that's probably something you've learned [00:24:00] firsthand in your community, but, you know, give you a story that so when I started my community, I have a community On Discord, which I didn't really wanna be on Discord, but my community said, we wanna be on Discord. [00:24:12] So I'm giving up control. So here we are in Discord, thought, well, this is a community. This is a community that, you know, I kind of brought these people together and they're interested in the future of marketing. So they're probably interested in things I'm talking about, like personal branding and being a professional speaker and writing books. [00:24:34] So I created. My own little chat rooms thinking, oh, this is where we're gonna have interesting dialogue about these subjects. Now those rooms are the emptiest rooms on the whole site because they, they didn't wanna go there. They took it in completely different direction. They said, look, we wanna talk about the metaverse, we wanna talk about web three. [00:24:58] We wanna talk about chat, [00:25:00] G P T and artificial intelligence, and. They were right. We need to be talking about those things, right? They've taken me a whole new direction. It's, but that community has become my university. I'm learning from them. Almost every blog, post, podcast or speech I give the, a lot of the information and stories are coming out of that community, right? [00:25:24] So they're keeping me relevant because they're spread out all over the world. You know, teaching me what they're seeing is, is, is going on out there. [00:25:33] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, so that, that letting go of the control and, and almost like letting the community taking over that is Yeah. That is so big and it's, it's so, I think against what a lot of us business owners or marketers have learned where we, and I, and I also. [00:25:54] Remember you or mentioning that a community is definitely not an audience, [00:26:00] right? That distinction is so essential and yet, We see probably 90% of the people using the words interchangeably. They call a community, they, they say they have a community where they actually just have a free Facebook group where they sell their [00:26:16] Mark: programs. [00:26:17] Yeah. And I think the distinction is important because that's where the real power is. Right? You know, when people have an audience, And they say, this is my community. I say, well, the do do the people in the AU in your audience, do they know each other? Do they connect to each other? And the answer is no, cuz they're an audience. [00:26:37] Now I'm not. I mean, an audience is really important. I mean, I have an audience, right? And those are the people who buy things from me. So, I mean, audience is great, but. When people know each other and they build relationships, connections, and they collaborate and they do things together in new ways, that goodwill and [00:27:00] that emotion transfers to the brand. [00:27:04] This is one of the profound lessons I think in the book. I mean, I did a deep dig, deep dive on a lot of the psychology of community, the sociology of community, and almost suggests that, and this is hence at your point, that leadership in a community is like upside down compared to traditional marketing. [00:27:27] Yeah. You know leadership. And so instead of building the connection between the brand, And our audience. It's about building the connection between the audience members to create this community, because if you do that, it creates this layer of emotional switching costs. Mm-hmm. Like, these are my friends, this is my community. [00:27:49] I can never leave this brand cuz I never wanna leave this community. Right. So it, it, it, there's a lot of. Non-intuitive things about [00:28:00] community success That, that I'm, I'm learning firsthand. Yeah. [00:28:03] Sarah: And, and that's where I think you brought in the live event. And that's when I'm like, I. I'm a hundred percent convinced because I've been, you know, I had my community probably two, three years now, and I, what I've been learning is that there's a lot of unlearning first of all for the leader of the community, but then also for members of the community because I feel like as marketers we have kind of brainwashed. [00:28:34] Clients and customers into these membership site type things where people just come to consume content rather than to actually show up and Yeah. You know, express themselves and say, this is what works for me, what works for you, and collaborating, and so I've been kind of like, Yeah. Empower, giving power back to the people and saying, no, I [00:29:00] want you to show [00:29:01] Mark: up. [00:29:01] Yeah, that's a, that's, that's a really, really good point. You know, I, I had this conversation with a friend of mine last week. He has, has a community, but it's really an audience. Because it's, it's the, you know, he's, he's like creating content and it's premium content that you only get if you're in this community. [00:29:24] Right. And it, it, there's not really a lot of focus. I mean, that's a [00:29:28] Sarah: membership site. Yeah, it is. I think that type, yeah, that those three words, they're kind of like Yeah. Creating, yeah. [00:29:35] Mark: It's a membership site. Mm-hmm. You know, in my community. It is, it's free, it's open it, you know, it's, it's, it's like, you know, everybody is welcome to, to come in and give it a try. [00:29:47] You know, I, I do have like a, like a v i p section where it's like a small amount of money every year. And then, you know, we get, we have meetings with like legendary, legendary marketing people [00:30:00] and And that's a lot of fun. But I mean, at least 90% of the community is just there. It's free and we're just helping each other and it's very generous and very kind. [00:30:10] And you know, I made so many new friends and no many new connections. And of course, as I said, it's just become my number one place to, to learn about what's, what's new. I mean, I was really early. In the in the AI generated content around art, like mid journey and I mean, it was like people in my community said, have you seen this? [00:30:35] Get a membership, try this thing. And it was just like, oh my gosh. I mean this, like my, my jaw just dropped on the table. It was so unbelievable. And that, you know, I was early on chat G p t again because my community's like pulling me into these things, right? And, and, and I think that's a big part of being relevant today, not necessarily being an expert. [00:30:58] In everything, [00:31:00] but knowing enough to at least ask the right questions about everything. Just, you know, dabbling in the metaverse and web three and all these new things, and that the community's helping me remain relevant. What, what a gift is that? Now think about what that means to a big brand. Yeah. Is, is, is, you know Sarah, I saw this amazing quote. [00:31:21] Oh, I, I, I got hung on this. It was probably four years ago now. There's a quote by the C m O of Pepsi and he said the days of the big brand are over the big brand campaign. Campfires. Bonfires are over. And today it's about. Being relevant in cultural moments. And I thought that is fascinating, but what does that really mean? [00:31:54] How does that show up? And if you watch what some of these brands are doing now, they like, if there's like a [00:32:00] big award show like the Grammys or the Emmys or the Oscars and or, or there's like big festivals. One of the things Pepsi did for example, was there was some big like cultural festival. In, in New York and they created a soft drink, especially for this festival. [00:32:22] It tasted like zindel or something, right? I mean, I can't imagine how bizarre that would be, but it was a in a pink can. But you know, if, if you play this out, how can you be? What would be the platform to be relevant in these cultural moments? What would be more powerful than a community that's taking you into these moments? [00:32:45] Mm-hmm. Exposing you to these moments. Yeah. And, and I, I, so I think big company, small company solopreneur it, it, it, it's something that must be considered really for any kind of business right now. [00:33:00] Yeah, [00:33:00] Sarah: I absolutely agree. And, and, and I think one y you did say, okay, this is a business book, but business is so human today to come back to my favorite topic and, and yeah. [00:33:12] And so those are those humanizing moments, right? It's like, we're not, and that's why the. Let me build a community so that I can sell more stuff. Doesn't work, because that's not why humans gather. They don't, right. They don't come into a community to buy more. And so I think brands need to be super careful with that, you know, thing they, they can go completely wrong if they start selling into the community. [00:33:41] Mark: Yeah. That, that's the number one. Right. Reason why communities. Fail Yeah. Is because they say, okay, well, we'll start a community, but you know, this is gonna help us meet our, our quarterly sales numbers. And, you know, a company has to do that. I've, I've been in that world for a long time, but that's, that's gonna [00:34:00] drive your community away. [00:34:01] And it, you know, I, I think one of the gifts of this book, I hope people see this as a gift, is in chapter 10, I look at measurement. In an entirely new way. I mean, community and measurement. This has been just a, a thorn in the side of communities forever and. I give a case study in the book about these big sports drink brands, Gatorade versus Powerade, and I show the power of brand marketing where you sponsor events and you're, you know, you get connected to cultural moments and you know, maybe you sponsor the World Cup. [00:34:44] Well, okay, so if you sponsor the World Cup and your brand is everywhere. Does that sell more products? Yes. Can we measure that? No, [00:35:00] probably not. So I make this distinction between brand marketing and direct marketing. And what I'm showing is that almost every community is trying to manage it and measure it like direct marketing. [00:35:16] But if you do that, you, you miss the whole thing about trust. And loyalty and emotion and love and co-creation, collaboration and advocacy, you're missing the main event. Mm-hmm. And so you, if, if, if the community reports to the marketing department, which understands what brand marketing is, we kind of take that pressure off and, and we look at other measures. [00:35:43] That may not necessarily be directly tied to the bottom line, but we know it's a leading indicator of, of the bottom line. One of the biggest communities in the whole world is Sephora. Now Sephora is a cosmetics company. Do you have [00:36:00] Sephora over there? And We do. Yeah. They're, they're, they're based in Europe, I think. [00:36:03] Yeah. And they're French, right? I think maybe French. Yeah. They've got brick and mortar stores. In, in many, many countries, every major city in America has just a forest store, but 80% of their sales come from their online community. And their number one measure in their community is engagement because they see engagement as the leading indicator to to sales. [00:36:34] Mm-hmm. So it's, again, this goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It's like, This turns the traditional marketing mindset kind of upside down. But this, I think this is where the world needs to go. I think 20 years from now, maybe 30 years from now, we're, we're gonna, the, the young people leading businesses today are already moving this direction. [00:36:59] They're [00:37:00] already moving to community. 85% of startups today are leading with community as they're. Main marketing idea. 30 years from now, the world's gonna look back at the period we're in now. And we're gonna say, remember those days we used to spam people. We used to interrupt people, intercept people. We used to bother them. [00:37:22] We used to fill their mailboxes with all this direct mail that wasn't even relevant to them anymore. What were we thinking? Okay. I'm so happy we read Mark's book 30 years ago. [00:37:36] Sarah: No, I, I have to say, like, I, I really feel like you pivoted or you kind of. Created this new path with Marketing Rebellion already. [00:37:46] Yes, exactly. Right. And now this is like, you know, for whoever is ready for the next. Paradigm, basically. I'm, I'm glad you picked up. I'm so glad to have you kind of, you know, forged this [00:38:00] path for people like myself, because that is the, I wanna cry, like, this is the biggest pushback I always got is like, you can't measure it. [00:38:08] You can't measure humane marketing. Yeah. And I felt like saying, so what? You know? Yeah. Right. This is the only way we gotta go. Yeah. And, and so now to say, well then if you don't listen to me, listen to Mark [00:38:21] Mark: Schaffer. Right? Yeah. I mean, it is, it is. And look, I'm like, I'm a measurement junkie. You know, I've, a lot of people don't know this about me, but I actually have the, the equivalent of a master's degree in statistics. [00:38:33] So, I mean, I'm all about the numbers. But you know, there was a very powerful quote from Marketing Rebellion that I actually repeated in, in the new book, and it's this idea. That you can either keep, keep pace with the, with the pulse of our culture, or you can measure, you probably can't do both. I mean, I, I, I, I think Sarah, there, there's [00:39:00] no business leader. [00:39:01] Anywhere right now that can't be feeling a little overwhelmed by the by the amount and velocity of change. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, you, you've got to, to, you've gotta make that leap at some point to say, We've gotta go to market a different way. We can't keep holding. It's, it's a sickness. It literally is a sickness that we're holding on to this scaffolding of the old ways, you know, our, our relationships with ad agencies and producing, you know, glamorous television commercials. [00:39:35] Cause you know, cuz we can win an award for this and, and, and, and it, it's hard. To change our, our, our, the culture of our company to start embracing these new things. I think every company today should be taking at least 10% of their marketing budget and experimenting maybe on things you can't measure. [00:39:58] You have no, have no hope of [00:40:00] measuring to move more toward this human-centered. View of, of marketing. Because just because you can't measure it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I mean, there's a lot of things we can't measure. We can't measure, you know, wind, we can't, me, well, we can measure, we can't measure love, right? [00:40:19] We can't measure love. We can't measure. How good we feel on a, on a sunny day. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't go to the beach, doesn't mean we shouldn't fall in love. We need to take advantage of those things. And there are many things in marketing today, you know, we are in the early days, in the early stages, and especially young people today have entirely different expectations and of, of what they want from businesses and what they want from marketing. [00:40:47] And we've gotta start moving that way now. Gen Z. They're not babies. We just had the first member of Gen Z become elected to the United States Congress. Mm-hmm. [00:41:00] They're consumers, right? In the next five years, they're gonna be our leaders, right? And our procurement managers. So, and, and, you know, great entrepreneurs. [00:41:10] So, I mean, we need, we need to wake up. We really do. Yeah. We need to get rid of this, these sick, these sick, antiquated practices and, and wake up to, to, to deliver. You know, we're gonna stop doing things that people hate. Just stop it and then double down. How do you feel? [00:41:29] Sarah: Yeah. How, how do you feel about, so these, you know, the marketers that are out there now in, in, let's say in bigger companies, but even entrepreneurs, like, besides you, you reading your book, how are they, how are we gonna get them up to speed with these skills? [00:41:48] Because unfortunately, Unless they have the luck to have you at their, at a lecture in their university, they're still being taught marketing from the sixties. Yeah. [00:42:00] It's, it's such a big mismatch. And, and I see that in, in the online marketing sphere as well. We're still being marketed to like 20 years ago with all the shaming and manipulating and [00:42:12] Mark: on the lot. [00:42:13] Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting, Sarah, that a lot of the problem right now is actually even in the universities. I mean, the universities many universities are so far behind. Mm-hmm. You know, it, it, I, I think I. The slowest moving. Most bureaucratic organizations I've ever worked with are, are universities and these are the institutions sad that we're, that we're counting on to, to keep our, our students relevant. [00:42:42] And there's many young people coming outta universities that are, you know, connecting to me saying, I'm totally unprepared for the world. All this stuff I learned, nobody's even doing this stuff anymore. Yeah, so there's a lot of problems. There's a lot of issues. But here's the thing that gives me a lot of hope. [00:42:59] I. [00:43:00] First of all, there is change happening. Absolutely. Sarah. There have been people that have taken my Marketing rebellion book and said, this is the new framework. This is the way we're gonna go forward, not just small companies. There's a Fortune 100 company that, that contacted me and said, this is the way we need to go forward. [00:43:20] You know, how can you help us do this? So that's number one. Number two. I think the best leaders today, they wanna stay relevant. You know, to, if you are managing a brand, here is your mission. A brand is a never ending journey of relentless. Relevance, relevance, relevance, relevance, relevance to now, to this moment, to this year, to this culture. [00:43:49] That's it. That's your job. Yeah. And, and to be relevant, you, you, you, you, you've gotta move away from some of these things that people just see are [00:44:00] not relevant anymore. They don't even work anymore, right? So we've got to start reaching out. We've got to start experimenting. And I think what gives me hope is that, look, any, any. [00:44:12] Great professional today. They know this. They wanna be relevant, they wanna be relevant in their careers, they want their companies to be relevant and, and so I think my message is, is is gonna connect because it has to connect. [00:44:26] Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. I do feel also always come back to Covid, but I do feel like it has helped with human evolution and of consciousness and people like, you know, never. [00:44:41] Like before they, they're like, we're done with this spammy marketing stuff. Like the, the kind of, I call it the bullshit The word is escaping me, but, but like the trigger, you know, is likes meter. We know, we can tell that this is all fakes and that that's so, [00:45:00] so I do feel, yeah, there's this gap between consciousness that has risen and some of the, the marketing stuff that is just so outdated. [00:45:09] But yeah, like you, I totally believe in humanity and, and I be believe that people. Feel it, like you could just feel it that there's this craving for, for belonging and, and so [00:45:21] Mark: I'm just Yeah. Oh, that, I mean, you talk about measurement that is documented. I mean, it, it, it's, it's just coming at us in every, every day, in every way. [00:45:32] It's, it's all over the news here in America. And I mean, just like two weeks ago I saw this statistic that was just incredible that. Of the young people aged 18 to 24, 50 1% of them had sought medical treatment for a mental health issue. Hmm. The average for every other generation, including, you know, my generation is 24%. [00:45:59] [00:46:00] Wow. Yeah. For young people today, it's 51% and the average for every other generation is 24%. There's something really wrong here going on. Mm-hmm. And you know, look, my book is not Pollyannish saying, Hey, start a community and change the world. I'm saying, look, There's a, there's a real marketing urgency to consider new ideas like this. [00:46:26] And oh, by the way, it's, it's gonna do some, it's gonna do some good for the people in your community. [00:46:33] Sarah: Yeah. I, I really feel this more so than in other, in, in the other books that, that you come from this place of. Let go of the ego and tap into the love. That's there's some warmth, you know, even though it's a business book, I feel like there's some warmth reading this. [00:46:51] And then, yeah. And that's also the, the thing that we need. Now it's like, you know, how can you have a community that is Cold and [00:47:00] based on Eagle. Well that's not gonna work. So there definitely has to be yeah, the warmths as well. I wanna tap into also kind of the bridging it to the technology piece to, to wrap up, because it could almost be like a paradox, you know, it's like, wait, wait a minute, okay. [00:47:18] We have this problem with technology, young people, too much technology, and yet, You are talking about technology and AI and in web three in the last part of the book, so draws this picture, how do they fit together? [00:47:35] Mark: Well, first of all, thank you for reading all the way to the end of the book. [00:47:40] Sarah: That was a test, you [00:47:42] Mark: know? [00:47:42] And you know, I'll tell you some of the, some of the most interesting. Things I have in the book are at the end and, and I thought, gosh, maybe I should put this up more towards the beginning so people can make sure I make sure they see that well. So there are [00:48:00] two big issues I, I talk about at the end of the book, technological changes and sociological changes. [00:48:06] They kind of go together that. Are suggesting there are gonna be very new kinds of communities in the future, and businesses need to be waking up. Whether you have a community or you just want to tap into a community, a certain demographic of consumers, you've gotta be aware of what's going on. Number one, on the technology side. [00:48:31] We hear these mysterious words like Web three and NFTs and Metaverse, and the irony is there isn't really a good definition for any of those things. Maybe NFTs come, come closest, but you know, people have really wild, wide, varying ideas of what the Metaverse is gonna be or what Web three is going to be. [00:48:52] But when you cut through all the jargon, What you really end up with is new ways for [00:49:00] people to belong and especially young people today, are just surging into these areas. So we've gotta be aware of what's happening, what's going on there, how these communities are being created, and consider if that's one of the ways we need to be relevant. [00:49:18] On the sociological side, young people today, they want to be. Invisible. They don't wanna be found, they don't wanna be discovered. They don't wanna be criticized and bullied and and marketed to. So today, much of our marketing is dependent on social listening platforms that tap into Twitter and LinkedIn and Facebook. [00:49:45] Well, guess what? Young people today, they're not there. Mm-hmm. They're not there at all. It's amazing to me. Sometimes I do guest lectures at, you know, universities. Even like people in graduate school today, they're not [00:50:00] on LinkedIn. You know, it's, it's, it's crazy. So where are they? They're on Discord, they're on maybe they're on TikTok. [00:50:10] They're on you know, communities in the Metaverse, they're on Fortnite, they're on Twitch. Guess what? Social listening platforms aren't there. The, you know, millions and millions of people are having brand conversations in places we can't see, right? So, Just like you mentioned, marketing Rebellion was a bit of a wake up call. [00:50:34] I think this book, you know, part of it is a solution and part of it is a. You know, knock on the head as well to say the world is changing in rapid and unexpected ways, and we don't have all the answers right now, but be aware of what is going on. And, and like I said, gen Z, they're not babies. They're consumers, right? [00:50:56] With growing, growing, you know, [00:51:00] economic power. So this, this is not something to put off and we really need to think about this now. Yeah. [00:51:07] Sarah: Yeah. And, and, and I do also see this theme of letting go of control, right? The, the Gen Z doesn't want control, and so they want this connections of trust with the, with the not Bitcoin. [00:51:21] The other one. The, the NFTs blockchain. Yeah, the blockchain, you know, kind of like, okay, I can trust this connection because it's decentralized and, and so all of these topics that for us right now, I. They've most markers I would assume kind of sounds like Chinese. And so they have to, really, what you're saying is basically almost, you have to have one person per department stay on top of the new stuff, right? [00:51:51] It's like, yeah, yeah. [00:51:52] Mark: Go. Yeah. I, I, I, I think, you know, if you've got that kind of luxury, I mean, Sarah Wilson is someone I feature in my book. [00:52:00] She is former Facebook, former Instagram writes for Harvard Business Review, sort of looking at Gen Z culture and Zen Gen Z marketing strategies and, and she says rather boldly in the book, she said, I think it's time I. [00:52:16] Just to find the youngest person in your marketing department and say, pay attention to this because I don't understand it. [00:52:23] Sarah: Yeah. I saw that quote and I was like, lucky me. I have two sons, 16 and 19. They tell [00:52:29] Mark: me all the insights. Well, yeah. I, I, I, I mentor my, my kids are grown, but I mentor young kids. Yeah. [00:52:36] And I mean, I'm always asking them, what are you doing? What are you seeing? Exactly. Let me, Let me watch you play Roblox. Why did you do that? Yeah. Yeah. Why did you buy that? [00:52:47] Sarah: Yeah. And all the ad blockers, just like you said, right? It's like everywhere. Yeah. [00:52:51] Mark: I wanna, I, I gotta watch my, my kids I mentor play Fortnite cuz I die every time I can't. [00:52:57] It's like, what's the use? I die [00:53:00] immediately, which makes them laugh, but, you know, so I've gotta watch them. I gotta watch them do it. Yeah. [00:53:06] Sarah: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I really appreciated this time with you, mark. I, I'm totally with you. Community is, is the way to go and I think we have a lot to learn from the communities, especially the marketers who think, you know, you just throw up a website and a pay button and then there you go. [00:53:26] You have your community. I think it's time to step back and come. Yeah. Step back from the ego and come with this humble learner approach to say, okay, what can I learn from this community? Yeah. That's the way I look at it. And it sounds like you do too. [00:53:42] Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. It's always delight. [00:53:46] Yeah, likewise talking to you. It's nice to find such a, I, I think we're of one mind and one heart when it comes to marketing, so it's for sure good to find. It's good to find an ally out there. [00:53:58] Sarah: Thank you. Thank you. Do you [00:54:00] mention the names of your books again and your website so people can [00:54:03] Mark: find Yeah. [00:54:03] The books we talked about today are marketing Rebellion. We didn't mention known, but you know, we, the book on personal branding I think is extremely relevant today. I think personal branding, when you get down to it can be. It's, it's everything in, in many ways when it comes to our careers and marketing. [00:54:23] And then my new book is called Belonging to the Brand. My Community is the Last Great Marketing Strategy and you can find my blog, my podcast, my books on my social media connections@businessesgrow.com. [00:54:39] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question. Mark, what are you grateful for today or [00:54:43] Mark: this week? Right now. [00:54:46] Well, I'm grateful for so much. I'm grateful for, for my, for my health right now. I've, I've gone through a, a, a week of of of illness here and I'm I'm grateful for we talked a lot about community, but I'm also really grateful [00:55:00] for the, your audience, my audience, the out there that, that supports me in so many ways. [00:55:05] That's, that's just incredibly humbling just to be interested in my work and support my work. So I'm grateful for, for you and your listeners today. Thank you, [00:55:15] Sarah: mark. Always a pleasure to hang out. [00:55:18] Mark: Yeah. Thank you, Sarah. [00:55:27] Sarah: Whether you are a community member or are thinking about creating your own community, I hope you found this episode with Mark. Really, really helpful. I know I did find out more about Mark and his work@businessesgrow.com and check out my two favorite books from him, marketing Rebellion. And belonging to the brand. [00:55:49] You can find them on his website or directly at Amazon. And if you're looking for a community of like-minded humane marketers, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:56:00] You can find out more at Humane. Dot Marketing slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash H 1 64, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business. [00:56:19] Manifesto and the free, gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and selling like we're human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. [00:56:43] Speak soon.[00:57:00]

Miriam Schulman, my guest today, is an artist, author and host of The Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her signature coaching program, The Artist Incubator, teaches artists go from so-so sales to sold-out collections. After witnessing 9/11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist. Featured in major publications including Forbes, The New York Times, Where Women Create, Art of Man, and Art Journaling magazine. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's “Parenthood” and the Amazon series “Hunters” with Al Pacino. NOW, Her book with HarperCollins Leadership, Artpreneur, has been released in JANUARY 2023. In today's episode, Miriam and I talk about: The definition of art Why creative artists struggle most with marketing How embracing your inner weirdo and honoring what comes easy for you Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists About Miriam's love for email marketing Why art matters And so much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more@humane.marketing slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:31] Hi, friends. Welcome back. Happy Spring. Today's conversation fits under the P of product, and if you're irregular here, as always, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here, big warm, welcome. Uh, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one. [00:02:53] Marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of [00:03:00] marketing@humane.marketing slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. It's kind of the foundation of your business and your market. [00:03:17] So today I'm talking to New York based Miriam Schulman about making art your product. I'll tell you more about Miriam in just a second, but first I want to give you an update about the Humane Marketing Circle, our community. Um, I wanna tell you that bringing in in a young community facilitator was one of the best moves I've ever made. [00:03:40] You know how it is. You have to invest in something in order for it to grow, but investing at the stage where you know the income is just not there yet. It is always scary, but. My gut was telling me, you know, this is the right thing to do and I'm just so excited to [00:04:00] be working with Eddie now, um, who's our community facilitator and, and carer and, uh, net weaver, that's how he, uh, refers, um, to himself as. [00:04:11] So besides adding a second monthly call that's hosted by three of our ambassadors, we, uh, have also transitioned in January to a new online platform. Uh, it's on Cajabi not Mighty Network, and we're really loving it. It feels like Cajabi is kind. You know, is, is one of us, it feels like us, not perfect, but very playful and kind. [00:04:39] It's kind of like, I think of it as the little sister of Mighty Networks with big dreams. And so after every call, Eddie, um, is giving us a challenge to complete. So either something that deepens our connection with other members. Because that's a big priority for us, is [00:05:00] that members are interconnected. [00:05:02] That's the definition of a community, right. So, uh, Eddie helps us with that and puts a challenge up on our, uh, cajabi. We call it our water hole, our place, you know. Kind of nicer image than just a water cooler. So we call it our water hole. Uh, the place where animals in Africa get together in the morning and drink. [00:05:24] So, um, he puts a challenge up there and helps us, uh, connect with each other. Or it might also be a, a challenge that helps us with our marketing and our. Business. So, um, yeah, if you've been thinking about joining for a while now is really a good time because it's time. In May I'll be doubling the monthly rates. [00:05:47] Uh, besides the monthly calls and the active online community, you also get one live 90 minute workshop on a marketing or business topic, as well as all the recording. And we will soon [00:06:00] also probably be, be adding a third call per month. So yeah, I feel like stepping into my personal power and it's, it's time to raise the, the rates, but there is still time to join us at the current monthly rate, which is $37 per month. [00:06:17] So have a look at the details at humane.marketing/circle and also look for the circle inaction link, uh, on that page. On that circle in action page, you'll see some excerpts from our calls and testimonials and all of that, um, kind of real behind the scenes info. Thanks so much for checking that out. All right, Miriam Schulman. [00:06:44] My guest today is an artist, author, and host of the Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her [00:07:00] signature coaching program, the artist incubator teaches artists to go from so, so sales to sold out collections. [00:07:09] After witnessing nine 11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist featured in major publications including Forbes, the New York Times where women create Art of man and art Journaling. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's Parenthood ND Amazon Series, hunter Hunters with Al Pacino, and now her book with Harper Collins Leadership Art Printer has been released in January, 2023. [00:07:42] In this episode, we talk about the definition of art and how art may not just be what we think it is, uh, why creative artists struggle most with marketing and what to do about it, how embracing your inner weirdo [00:08:00] and honoring what comes easy for you. Frees you up and actually lets you do the marketing, uh, that is aligned with you. [00:08:09] Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists and what to do instead about Miriam's love for email marketing, why art matters and so much more. So let's dive in and talk to Miriam about making art your product. [00:08:28] Hey, Miriam, so good to speak to you today. I can't wait for this conversation about art. [00:08:35] Miriam: Well, thanks so much for having me, Sarah. It's, it's an honor to [00:08:38] Sarah: be here. Thank you. So I was just, we were just recording an episode for your podcast and, and now, um, you know, I'm on the other side of the mic and I'm excited to Yeah. [00:08:50] To kind of pick your brain, uh, around art and entrepreneurship because as we just discussed offline, they have a lot to do with each other and it really [00:09:00] depends how you define art. And so I think maybe that's a good place for us to start. Why don't you. Tell our listeners how you define art. Yeah, that's [00:09:11] Miriam: a, that's a great question. [00:09:13] Um, so my book is Entrepreneur, but the truth is, in the way we're gonna define art, every entrepreneur is an art preneur and vice versa. So, when I started writing the book, it's not, it was very, it had to be very clear. This is not just for visual. And it's not. And then we made the definition very broad. [00:09:35] Could be your art, could be writing, it could be um, music, it could be dance, it can be ceramics, it can be fashion. But once you make that definition, definition so broad, your art really is whatever product that you're producing. And so all I'm doing in this book is teaching people who cons. Don't believe that [00:10:00] business lessons apply to them. [00:10:01] I'm showing them. Mm, yes, they do. But the thing is, there's a lot of people who don't define themselves as artists who maybe look at marketing advice and they're sitting there if their arms crossing, oh, that doesn't work in my industry, or, that doesn't apply to me when actually it does. [00:10:16] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I I I was just gonna say, like, what, when I was thinking, when I, I was preparing for the episode and I'm like, well, art and marketing. [00:10:27] It's not usually a good marriage, right? People are who are artists, they're like, yeah, that's not for me. Or, or maybe they do wonder, well how do I sell my art? But what they see out there, they always feel like that doesn't apply to me. And so you're saying the same thing. That's what you're seeing usually [00:10:49] Miriam intro: from artists. [00:10:50] Why is that? Well, you know what, I, I get a lot of pushback cuz I, I like to say, you know, anybody. With a, who wants this can do it. [00:11:00] Anyone with a dream can do it. And so what the pushback I get is, yeah, but what about talent? Mm-hmm. And here's the truth, Sarah. Marketing trump's talent every single time we've all seen, um, not so good artists. [00:11:17] Succeed or you know, ones where like, huh, you know, we all seen that. And the same thing is true in, in business marketing is gonna trump every single time. Like the, you know, if you don't, people don't know about you, they can't buy your product or service. [00:11:34] Sarah: Right. It's, it's that just saying, you know, you stay the best kept secret. [00:11:39] It's like, yeah, you're really good, but nobody knows about [00:11:41] Miriam: you. Exactly. Exactly. So, and there's a lot of examples in the art world. So there's this, uh, American artist. Is he, he may not be American. Damien Hurst, is he American or is he from London? Okay. You don't, it doesn't matter cuz you don't know who he is. [00:11:56] It's fine. Um, he sold [00:12:00] a shark in formaldehyde for like a million dollars. Now is that talent? You know, it's like, I don't think so. So that is just a marketing stunt and people who are creating, um, like NFTs, like there was this guy who made this huge gold cube and put it in, uh, central Park to sell as an N F T. [00:12:22] Was, is that talent? No. It's a big marketing stunt, right? So, [00:12:29] Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think then that creative entrepreneurs struggle most with, uh, um, marketing or, or what part of the marketing do they struggle with? [00:12:42] Miriam: Yeah. A a lot of it is is the mythology for artists in particular. There is that whole idea of they, they're taught you can't sell out or like, you're not a true artist if you are trying to market, which is complete BS because we have a [00:13:00] history going back to Michelangelo, where he was very much interested in the commercial side of things. [00:13:06] I mean, he's not just pa uh, sculpting and painting whatever he felt like. He didn't wanna paint the Sistine Chapel, but the Pope said, yes you do. Here's the money I'm gonna pay you. So he, he did projects for monetary reasons, so it's not a sellout to create art that's marketable that the, the market wants. [00:13:26] So that is a big thing that holds people back. But I also see. And Sarah, tell me if you see this too for, for women in particular who are socialized and, and I don't mean only some women are socialized this way. I think all of us women are socialized this way. We're socialized to play small, to not desire money, sex and power. [00:13:50] I think it's, that's probably more true in the US with the, because of the tradition of Puritanism, this is how our country was founded by. Though [00:14:00] that very conservative religion, so Right. Um, not to play small, and whether you're looking at images of thin women, the, the message that women are getting is not to take up space. [00:14:13] Mm-hmm. And that it's wrong to want money. So that plays a significant role because people will continue to sabotage themselves if they don't believe that it's okay. To desire money and success and to play role a bit a role and be visible and be big. So that is gonna sabotage people if they're trying to stay quiet and small when they have, and, and also be visible at the same time. [00:14:43] It just, they don't work together. [00:14:45] Sarah: Yeah, I hear you. That I'm sure there's a, there's something on that belief level, right? Um, I also think it's like, so. Right. Like I often talk about the right brain and the left brain. So I really [00:15:00] also think like creative's brains are wired differently and they're, um, you know, there's so much in the creativity that when they are then seeing, uh, you know, marketing advice that is very structured and follow steps and, and they're like, this is how you do it. [00:15:19] That's when they get turned off. They're like, no, but I wanna. Me, I just wanna, you know, it's kind of like almost rebellious, maybe. Artists seem to be more [00:15:29] Miriam: rebellious in a way. Yeah, I I, I can see why you would say that. I think for, for, at least for me personally, I found a lot of the marketing advice out there, a turnoff, because it was coming f like it was very bro marketer. [00:15:43] It was like, okay. Right. Exactly. You know, these very. Um, hustle style, whereas the best marketing in the world is being your true, authentic sell, right? [00:15:54] Sarah: Yeah. So not in your book, you have this line, embrace your inner weirdo, right? [00:16:00] Yeah. So tell us more about that. What you, what you mean by that. Okay, [00:16:04] Miriam: so the word weird, the original definition comes from Scotland, and it meant fate or destiny. [00:16:11] And then you may recall in Macbeth there were the three witches who were called the weird sisters. So then the meaning meant something associated more with faith, the supernatural. And as time went on and the supernatural became vilified, The word weird took on that negative connotation. So to be weird is really to embrace your destiny. [00:16:39] To embrace what's really special about you. So I, I say love your inner weirdo and be a weirdo in the most affectionate way possible. [00:16:48] Sarah: Hmm, yeah. You also say, um, like one of the examples you mentioned in that chapter is share your values and. You know, that's a [00:17:00] huge part of humane marketing as well. It's like, share your worldview. [00:17:04] Share what matters to you. People don't typically see that as marketing. They always think, maybe especially artists, they think, oh, you have to talk about, you know, this art piece or this book. I've written a book and now I have to constantly talk about this book. Not true. If you share your worldview and your values, that is part of your marketing. [00:17:28] Miriam: Oh, for sure. So there are a lot of artists who are afraid of speaking out. So I live in the US we have very divisive politics, and they're worried of losing business if they have. One point of view and they express a view that me, other people might get them upset. So for me, I'm very progressive. I have a lot of liberal views. [00:17:55] I'm not worried about alienating people who are [00:18:00] conservative. Yeah, I may alienate some people. There are some diehard conservatives though, who like I've had some words with and they're still following me. But people respect that more. And what happens if you don't share your values, they're gonna assume. [00:18:15] So right before we hit record, Sarah was asking me, so you just had an election, what do you think? And I don't know if you were like trying to see where I was at on that political [00:18:25] Sarah: No, I knew from reading the book, I knew. Okay, right. [00:18:27] Miriam: You read my book. But, but let's pretend you didn't now. And I said, oh, I, you know, and I gave a very witchy, rashy response. [00:18:34] You, you may as assume, you might assume that I don't care about politics when, meanwhile, I care very deeply about the unraveling of, of women's rights and what I see happening. So it's important to dive deep into that. I was very impressed Billy Eilish, um, went on record, uh, on Instagram, telling people to vote and why this was important. [00:18:58] Yeah. Other people [00:19:00] say vote, but only if you agree with me. You know? But, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's really nice to see some people who have big platforms not being afraid of alienating people and the ones who are very big on all parts of the political spectrum. Are not afraid of being polarizing because you can love me or hate me, but there is, when you're in business, there is no money in the middle, and when you're trying to please everyone, you're just striving for mediocrity. [00:19:34] Right. [00:19:35] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. Um, I just, I, I follow Guy Kawasaki, uh, you see who he is. Um, he's, he's kind of the, you know, past Apple and then Canva. Um, he's just a spokesperson now, pretty much. And he just really shares his political views and just, I think before the elections he put, he's active on LinkedIn or that's [00:20:00] where I see him. [00:20:00] And he, he was saying, you know, Uh, your influencers, what are they saying right now? Are they saying, you know, go vote and, you know, here's what's really happening because go vote. That's kind of an easy out as well, because that doesn't really share your worldview. That's correct. Um, so he was, you know, being more specific, um, or so, so artie's influencers telling you who to vote for and why it. [00:20:27] Or are they telling you the latest car they bought or you know, which mansion they're staying at and all of that kind of stuff that we're so used to from the bro influencers. Right? Yeah. And I thought that made a lot of sense. That's exactly the worldview that we're interested in and we're not so interested in, you know, the latest car you bought and all of. [00:20:49] Miriam: Yeah. Yeah. And there's actually a very significant, um, population that the data shows, they're called the conscious consumers that they do shop with. They do vote with [00:21:00] their pocketbooks. Of course. Yeah. So they're checking, you know, you know, and they don't all have the same causes that they care about. You know, some people care more about sustainability of a brand when they're shopping, some care more. [00:21:12] Inclusion. I know that when I receive a clothing catalog, if it's all white women, I throw it out now like I'm, you know, they don't care enough to show, have diversity in the catalog. Um, I, I don't shop there. So there is a, a, a large percentage of people who. This is their values matter. And what matters is that the brands are doing it in an authentic way. [00:21:36] Not like, oh, so this is gay Pride week and here's your rainbow smoothie, or whatever, because they people can see through that. It's how you're showing up all year long. That's gonna matter. [00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And the, the reason again, we're bringing this up is, Oftentimes creatives don't realize that that's part of marketing. [00:21:57] Um, that's right. Yeah. And it's, it's not just the, [00:22:00] you know, follow these three steps to market your art. It's, it, it, it's. A whole package. That's the other thing that you mentioned in your book, um, is honor What Comes Easy for You. And I love that. That's kind of like my motto for life, right? Um, and so you have a, a funny gardening story in there. [00:22:19] Uh, would you mind sharing that? I think that's such a good example of, of how that works. Yes, yes. [00:22:25] Miriam: Okay. So I, I live in New York City. I'm staring at a brick wall right now, but we do have a, a farmhouse two hours away. It's in the Catskills in New York. And my husband started a garden, um, when we first moved there, and we, he went to the nursery and he spent. [00:22:42] Oh, I don't know, a couple hundred dollars on plants, like these starter plants. And then when we were at the counter, he just grabbed a couple of seed packets. So the seed packets, we just scattered in the plants. You know, it made a mess in the back of my car with the dirt. I wasn't happy about [00:23:00] that. And we spent a good back breaking afternoon, putting in these starter plants. [00:23:07] Well, a couple, whatever, whatever the time span was later. The seeds were doing really well. It was like Jack and the bean sprout, like all these, like these stalk came up and we had beautiful string beads. The starter plants on the other hands, like all the bugs ate them. So it was like, here's a situation where. [00:23:27] The seed packets were the easy way to go and they actually were the easier the, the best result, whereas this harder, more expensive thing didn't work out as good for as well for us. But we do this a lot in our business where we try to make things so hard and we have something that comes easy for us and we think that couldn't be as valuable. [00:23:46] Right. [00:23:47] Sarah: Yeah. I just love that story, I guess, because I, I also, I'm not a big fan of gardening, but my husband is, and yeah, I would just totally throw some seeds [00:23:56] Miriam: out there. That's right. Well, it was like the sunflowers came from seeds. [00:24:00] The green beans came from seeds. Um, we tried something else this year. I forget what it was, and it was like, yay [00:24:06] Sarah: seeds. [00:24:07] Yeah, exactly. And it's funny how we often. You know, it's kind of a metaphor. Plant a seed, and I love that also for marketing, where you might just have a conversation and you're not actually pushing it and trying to sell them something, but in your head, you know, I just planted a seed, and this might turn into something bigger that you weren't even expecting. [00:24:33] I love the metaphor of seeds as well, so yeah, that's a beautiful metaphor [00:24:38] Miriam: that you, the way you just [00:24:39] Sarah: used it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, another thing that I know that you love is email marketing. So it seems like you really built your business based on email marketing, so, Maybe you, because right now I feel like people are still understanding. [00:24:57] Okay. Yes. Uh, email [00:25:00] marketing is a good strategy, especially with all the talk about social media going down the tubes and Twitter disappearing and all of that. So how does one start an email list today? Um, you know, starting out as a creative, how do you actually get people's attention? Because I do feel like. [00:25:22] A lot out there. And I know that my people, they're like, yeah, but there's so much also crap out there that I feel like I give my email and I get this one pager that is not even valuable. Um, so what would you say, what would you tell creatives how to get started? [00:25:40] Miriam: Well, let me just start with that last example you gave just because you had a, you meaning the listener had a bad experience with somebody's Jan. [00:25:49] Email doesn't mean you have to emulate that. Right. You be that bright spot in someone's email where they look forward to opening your emails or they love the [00:26:00] freebies that you're sending them. You, you be, you, you make a, you can, you're the one who has control over that and can make a difference. Right. [00:26:07] One thing I like to tell my clients, or what I talk about in the book is emails are really love letters to your audience. Mm-hmm. And that is the best way to nurture a relationship. [00:26:18] Sarah: Right, so, so when you work with clients, when they ask you, well, so how, what do I create? You have some great examples of what creatives created as a download, as a free [00:26:33] Miriam: Yes. [00:26:34] This, this was a very important chapter for my audience because there is so much advice out there for people who are weight loss coaches. You just give them a cheat sheet or a menu and they like, I have no idea what it is that they want, and they come up with things. That really have nothing to do with what they're ultimately selling. [00:26:55] Like I'll see artists have screensavers or something. It's like, yeah, but you're not [00:27:00] selling that. So that is not, and also people don't want your screensaver. They want their kitty as their screensaver or their kid or their doc. So, The, the things are pe again, this is where people make it way too hard for themselves. [00:27:13] So for, for my audience who are selling products, one of the best things to give away is just early access. So you don't even have to create something. And this does work. So a good example of this is in, in April when the war first br, when the war first broke out in March and then Easter in April that year. [00:27:34] Uh, Stanski eggs, which are Ukrainian eggs, I don't know if you you've seen them, but they're very intricate, intricately painted eggs. This was cut out of the preview book that you got, by the way. I think we put it back in for the final version. It doesn't [00:27:51] Sarah: be, you see? Yeah. So there, I thought you were tricking me, but No, [00:27:54] Miriam: no, no, no. [00:27:55] Yeah, so we, we had it in, we cut it out, we put it back in. [00:28:00] So there, there was this artist creating eggs and she sells them for over $200. And they're, they're absolutely gorgeous. These very intricate, and they're made by, um, using I think like a toothpick and putting boutique on to make these fine lines and doing these, the dipping process. [00:28:21] So she was completely sold out at these prices. Now people are gonna wanna join her email list just to find out when they come back in stock. Wow. So people who are creating one of a kind things, this is something that is a reason. If you're selling a service like a class, it's re, it's a reason enough that people wanna be on the wait list when, when it opens up. [00:28:44] So that's like the easiest place to go. Uh, if for, for the visual artists out there, I love the giving them a post, people, giving people a postcard with your art on it. That does require. The person giving you their email [00:29:00] address to also give their postal address, which is more of a commitment, but that means they're more serious about your art. [00:29:06] And again, everything that you're giving as your lead magnet needs to be a free taste of whatever it is that they're ultimately gonna buy. Hmm. So that's why I said a screensaver doesn't work. Um, artists who give away coloring pages, that only works if you're selling a coloring book if you're trying to sell something else. [00:29:26] Not a great idea. Yeah. [00:29:28] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Um, I'm just trying to figure out how, you know, the, the Etsy website, how does that play into the whole I'm an artist and I'm selling my art because Etsy, it's, its stand. Website and I see a lot of creatives putting their art up there, but, but then how would they, yeah. How would. [00:29:53] Still build an email list and then say, yes, absolutely. It's now available on Etsy. Yes. Something like that. Okay. [00:29:58] Miriam: Yeah, so that, [00:30:00] that is why I encourage clients to build their own website because if you're gonna have to drive traffic anyway, you might as well drive it to your own site. Yeah. The artists who do well in Etsy are driving traffic fair. [00:30:16] Yeah. And then Sarah, do you want me to circle back to the lead magnet thing? Because we can also discuss what lead magnets work? Well, if you're not a visual artist, like what I use in my own business, please. Okay. Yep. Let's do that. So, of course there's the free masterclass, but one thing that I, I've done that works really well is transcribing the masterclass and turning that into an e. [00:30:37] Without the sales pitch, but basically giving the same exact content. So think about all the different content that you're giving them. How can you repackage it and give the same experience? Whether that is a masterclass, some people prefer to read the book, right? You know, like whether it's Terry Potter or the movie. [00:30:55] Like some people rather read the book than see the movie. Right. So, [00:31:00] yeah, to give them different experiences. Yeah, [00:31:03] Sarah: I like that. And then I guess, you know, for. I don't know if you've set that up, but the free chapter for the book is usually what you do when you have a book. Have you set that up? I haven't [00:31:15] Miriam: set that up yet, but I probably should. [00:31:16] You should. Yeah. I know I probably should. I have to talk to my, uh, yeah, my [00:31:21] Sarah: publisher about that. Yeah. I, I feel like people, you know, they, they like, uh, uh, free down download of the first chapter and then decide of course on Amazon. Usually you can kind of see the first couple of pages, but it's not, it's not the whole chapter usually. [00:31:36] Yeah, so it's helpful too. You [00:31:38] Miriam: wanna hook them in. So yeah. What is it that you can give away that will hook them in and want more of what you got? [00:31:43] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh, just yesterday in, in my Humane Marketing Circle community, we talked about actually having freebies without getting people's email, there seems to be a trend [00:32:00] of. [00:32:01] B, because people kind of feel like, well, it's not really free if I have to give my email. And so my people, they're like, oh, I want them in my world, but I don't. I want to have options. I want to have maybe one thing that they can just download for free and then come back for more. What do you think about this strategy? [00:32:24] Miriam intro: Well, you're taking a big chance that they're not gonna ever come back again. It's kind of like a one night stand. [00:32:31] Sarah: Yes. Like it, but it could be, you're so good on this one night stand since we're going with this example, that they wanna come back. Right. Because [00:32:41] Miriam: they're like, they're really, that's the problem that I see with, with TikTok. [00:32:45] It's like the death of and, and reels on Instagram too, but, but we'll just talk about TikTok. It's the death of the scroll. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, and I know entrepreneurs are spending a tremendous amount of time creating content for. [00:33:00] TikTok, social media and social. But, but especially those videos, they take a lot of time. [00:33:04] Now, if you've been on the consuming end of those videos, you know that before you get to that end of that video, they're already making you push up to the next thing. Mm-hmm. So I found that I can have thousands of views on, on a reel with nobody going to my profile. And I had an artist who created a viral reel. [00:33:24] She got 45 thou, 45,000 views without. Um, like maybe a couple followers, but nobody going to our website cuz you can see the stats. Now with TikTok, the followers there are completely meaningless. You can have, um, you can follow someone and never ever see their content ever again. So somebody who has millions of followers, that's not a relationship with millions of people. [00:33:48] It's kind of a meaningless metric, right? I would be very wary of trying to build a relationship where you can't, you're not in [00:34:00] control of getting in touch with them ever again. Hmm. Yeah. [00:34:03] Sarah: Okay. It's interesting, uh, and I totally agree with the, with social media, people spend so much time on there and oftentimes entrepreneurs are exhausted and, and, you know, to go back to the do what's easy, well, social media nowadays is not easy anymore. [00:34:21] No. It's not really want to get something out of it. So, um, I think it's important to, to say that not enough people. You know, say the truth, how it is, and it's not easy to build a following or, or nevermind a following, just a business, uh, on social media today. So in your opinion then, what's the best way, where would a, a creative, uh, an artist, an entrepreneur start when they're just starting out their. [00:34:51] Miriam: Well, bill, bill, that email list, and I wanna circle back to a question you did ask, but I don't think I really answered. It's like, well, how and where do you start? Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] And there are only three ways to build your audience. There is what I call your universe. So your universe is anyone you come into contact with, whether it's in person or online. [00:35:13] Then there are other people's univers. So that could be like what we're doing now. Sarah, I'm on your podcast. You came on mine. Right. So that's basically, other people call it earned press, earned publicity. Mm-hmm. And then, which is free. And the third category is paid publicity. Mm-hmm. Or paid platform. So those are, there's, those are the three ways. [00:35:39] And they're really, I don't think there is any other way other than those three areas your platform. Other people's platforms and rented platforms. Mm. Yeah. [00:35:49] Sarah: I, I like that. It, I mean, I know that, but it, explaining it this way, it feels like, okay, if you're just starting out, You gotta start in your [00:36:00] own universe. [00:36:01] Yes. Cause you don't have the credibility yet to go, or you can start with the paid, but that's also correct. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you don't really have the credibility yet to go out there and say, okay, can I be on your podcast? Or can that co Or not just credibility, but maybe also confidence. [00:36:19] Miriam intro: Well, actually, let me. [00:36:21] Circle back so you can get, um, free, free press. And I did that even in the very beginning. But you need to start local. Local. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you can't jump, jump the ladder. It's like, it'd be great to be on Oprah. Right. But yeah, there's different levels. Exactly. Like there's things like, you know, I would love Brene Brown to invite me to her podcast, but you know, [00:36:45] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:36:46] It, yeah, it just kind of goes the same with anything in life. It's like, oh, am I on this level or Yeah. Am I evolving to future levels? Yeah. [00:36:56] Miriam intro: And, and that's why we should talk about something, which I don't think I talk about in the book at all, but [00:37:00] who knows? Maybe if I write another book, who knows. Um, so that's why I spend so much time building what I call relationship capital, because the way to get the. [00:37:12] To expand outside of your universe and get some of those earned opportunities is by building relationships, which is why joining communities like yours, Sarah, is so important. Like those relationships, yeah. Can help you. And I never have regretted investing in paid programs, paid masterminds, because those networks have been hugely. [00:37:36] Yeah, [00:37:37] Sarah: don't you agree? Oh yeah, totally. So much so that, you know, the partnership is the seventh p of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Uh, because I really think partnership is the way to, to market and, and, you know, collaborate with others. And, and what you just said as well is there's different levels within partnerships as. [00:37:59] [00:38:00] There's the free levels, which is peers, and then there's the paid levels, which is mentors and coaches, which again, it's just like these unwritten rules. You probably can't go to, you know, ask, uh, Brene Brown if she would, you know, feature you or something because there hasn't been a paid relationship for some things. [00:38:21] There just needs to be a paid relationship for them to pay attention to you. You know, they have so many people they could be paying attention to. [00:38:30] Miriam: Yeah. And, and one thing that I think is very important, especially now with um, let's just say it like it is the demise of, of easy social media, right? Is I think it is a very important to have your own platform because it's one thing to, uh, to, to get media. [00:38:49] But it's much better if you are the media. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you have a YouTube channel, if you have a podcast, and by the way, blogs are coming back. I have been reading people's [00:39:00] blogs posted on in. LinkedIn. That seems to be the new thing. Have you noticed that too? That trend? Everyone's like running to LinkedIn lately. [00:39:06] Sarah: Oh yeah. No. I've been on LinkedIn for, for years like that. [00:39:11] Miriam: I've been there, but I haven't been like consuming the way I started to. It's like, well that's a good article. Like as people are actually putting some quality things there. Yeah, so that's be be the media. If you want opportunities, give opportunities. [00:39:25] Mm-hmm. People like, if you are one of Sarah's coaching clients, invite her to your platform. Right. Am I putting you on the spot? Is this gonna be edited? [00:39:37] Sarah: N no, no, this is all good. No, we're not editing the, well, we are editing the, but I'm not cutting anything out. Okay. Cause this is, this is a Cuban conversation, so, yeah. [00:39:47] Yeah. No. [00:39:48] Miriam: So lemme, instead of putting you on a spot, I'll just talk about myself. So when I joined Masterminds and I started a podcast, I had my, my first guess was my business coach, right? Then I [00:40:00] could say to my business coach's friends who were like, kind of jumping a level here. Mm-hmm. You know, they weren't my level, they were my business coach's level. [00:40:07] Right. Hey, Jason Van Orden was a guest on my show and I'd love to have you on as well. So now this is already giving me credibility because my business coach. Said yes to me on my podcast, which was an easy yes for me. So now somebody says, oh, well if Jason was on it, I'll do on it. And then I went to the third person, Hey, Jason was on it and such and such was on it. [00:40:29] Would you like to come on it too? So it's like, this is how we build that ladder of credibility is starting with your own network, starting with peers. And then you can add, just go up those, uh, go up that ladder with baby steps. Yeah, [00:40:45] Sarah: that's so. I feel like you, you just said blogs are coming back and I, I was also thinking art is come, coming back. [00:40:55] I really feel like, you know? Yeah. So, so maybe the question would [00:41:00] be like, why does art matter now more than ever going forward? [00:41:06] Miriam: Yeah. Well, because we're going through such an existential crisis in the world, and art is what gives us meaning. [00:41:13] Sarah: Mm-hmm. So good. And, and, and that would've been a nice ending, but I wanna come back to that, to that one point you made when I was on your show about the, you know, in marketing we always talk about these pain points and Oh yeah. [00:41:29] And you have such a good point about. Well, I'll let you explain [00:41:33] Miriam: it. Okay. So this is like, it's not that marketing doesn't apply to creatives. It just may be the way you've been taught. It's not the right way. So we're talking about the bro marketers and a lot of them also they say find the pain point and twist that night. [00:41:49] Exactly. Like if you heard it, that's what, but that's what they say. Yeah. All right. So, but the problem is when you're, when you're selling something that gives people pleasure, like [00:42:00] let's say, I'm the producer of Harry Potter. I'm not gonna market the movie by saying, well, their pain point is their bored. [00:42:08] Watch Harry Potter. It alleviates boredom. You don't do that, right? So, or, or, or what's, what's the pain point of the Oreo cookie? Nothing. We just want it cuz it tastes good. Right? So, And that doesn't mean that your art has to be all rainbows and daisies. Cause there's plenty of art that is dark and goth and emo, and people get a lot of pleasure from that. [00:42:31] But instead of worrying about what people's night sweats are, what their pain points are, what's keeping them up at night, you gotta think what are their wet dreams? What is it that they, they really want, what they really desire? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sell that pleasure. [00:42:49] Sarah: Mm. Yeah. And, and that ties in with why art and pleasure is so important right now is because, you know, who wants to open their email and, and, you [00:43:00] know, Find out how much they suck and how much their life is miserable and because they're not this and that, and not enough. [00:43:07] No. Like, like you said, we're living in a crisis, so we, we want positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement. And I think all the right brainers, that's what they're bringing to society right now. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, do you tell people where they can find your book in, in your website, and all of. [00:43:30] Miriam: Okay, so if you like this conversation, you will also love. Sarah on my podcast, the inspiration plates. I'm not sure who, I don't remember who is coming out first. Me neither. But yeah. But you can find the inspiration plates if I'm, if she's not there yet, just hit that plus sign or the follow sign and you'll get it very soon. [00:43:50] Cuz we had an amazing conversation, which was completely different, I think, than what we talked about today. Mm-hmm. And my book Art is available. There's a lot of [00:44:00] pre-order goodies, so I hope you'll check that out. Art. Dot com. [00:44:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Entrepreneur book all in one word. [00:44:08] Miriam: Yeah, that's, that's the website to, to get the book Or just search Entrepreneur. [00:44:13] But you get bonuses when you go to my page, so there you go. It's all about the, it's all about the freebies. [00:44:19] Sarah: I always have one last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today, Miriam? More this week? Oh, [00:44:25] Miriam: that is such a beautiful question. Did you tell me ahead of time? I would have to answer. [00:44:29] Sarah: No, I did not. [00:44:31] I put you on the spot because we all have to have something that we're [00:44:35] Miriam: grateful for. I, I am very grateful for my family right now. Um, I'm grateful that I have a husband who lets me be weird. Um, I'm grateful for, for my children who don't give me too much angst. They're adults, by the way. And, uh, yeah, I'm very grateful for my family. [00:44:52] Wonderful. [00:44:53] Sarah: Awesome. Thank you so much for [00:44:55] Miriam intro: being. And I'm grateful for, for this opportunity too. Let's just, let's [00:45:00] just say that too. [00:45:01] Sarah: Thank you. If you're an artist or a creative mind, I bet this conversation resonated with you. So do take some time to find out more about Miriam and her work@schulmanart.com and check out her book called The Art Printer. [00:45:19] Wherever you get your books, if you go to schulman art.com/prophet, you'll find, uh, Miriam's, uh, free download. It's called the Artist Profit Plan Guide, and it helps you dig deep to go beyond the starving artist mindset to uncover what's really sabotaging your success. So again, go to schulman art.com/. [00:45:45] And finally, you can also look up her podcast. It's called The Inspiration Place. And if you look for episode 239, that's the uh, show where I talk to Miriam about humane marketing. So again, [00:46:00] look for the Inspiration Place podcast. And if you wanna hear me on her show, that's episode 239. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:46:15] You can find out more at humane.marketing/circle. You find the show notes on this episode@humane.marketing slash 16 one, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. It is my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle mini confidence mini course, as well as my two books. [00:46:41] Marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you [00:47:00] want to see in the. Speak soon.[

Welcome to this Aphasia Access Aphasia Conversations Podcast. My name is Janet Patterson. I am a Research Speech-Language Pathologist at the VA Northern California Healthcare System in Martinez, California, and a member of the Aphasia Access Podcast Working Group. Aphasia Access strives to provide members with information, inspiration, and ideas that support their efforts in engaging with persons with aphasia and their families through a variety of educational materials and resources. I am the host for today's episode that will feature Dr. Sarah J. Wallace from Queensland, Australia. These Show Notes accompany the conversation with Dr. Wallace but are not a verbatim transcript. In today's episode you will hear about: clinical meaningfulness and research wastage: defining and addressing, minimal important change: defining and measuring, four “Monday Morning Practices” to create clinically meaningful outcomes.     Dr. Janet Patterson: Welcome to our listeners. Today I am delighted to be speaking with Dr. Sarah J. Wallace from the University of Queensland. In this episode we will be discussing the topic of operationalizing treatment success: what it means, the research efforts supporting this idea, why it is important to think about as we plan and deliver aphasia treatment, and suggestions for implementation in daily clinical practice. Dr. Wallace is an NHMRC Emerging Leadership Fellow, NHMRC Senior Research Fellow in the School of Health and Rehabilitation Sciences at the University of Queensland in Australia. She is also a Certified and practicing Speech Pathologist. Her research interests include communication disability in ageing and enabling and measuring meaningful change in language and communication impairment in individuals with post-stroke aphasia. She uses qualitative and mixed methods to explore the lived experience of communication disability and works in partnership with consumers and clinicians to co-produce clinical interventions and methodological approaches that support the production of meaningful outcomes.   Among her interests in aphasia assessment and rehabilitation is a focus on measurement of aphasia and rehabilitation outcomes, in particular, outcomes that are real and are meaningful to persons with aphasia. Sarah led the ROMA group, Research Outcome Measurement in Aphasia, a group that has published three papers reporting efforts to identify standard outcome measures used in aphasia research. In addition, with colleagues across the world, she published a paper examining methods of operationalizing success in aphasia treatment in research and daily clinical practice. Foremost in this body of work is what I perceive to be Sarah's desire to bring together ideas from persons with aphasia and their family members, assist clinicians and researchers to identify effective and efficient rehabilitation techniques, and to measure treatment outcome in a relevant and scholarly rigorous manner.   Welcome to Aphasia Access Conversations, Sarah, and thank you for joining me today.   Dr. Sarah Wallace: Thanks, Janet, for this invitation.   I would like to start today by acknowledging the traditional owners of the lands from which I'm joining today, the Turrbal and Yuggera people, and pay my respects to their ancestors and their descendants who continue cultural and spiritual connections to country.   Janet: Thank you very much. I appreciate that acknowledgement.   Sarah, throughout your career, you have published papers focusing on aspects of aphasia rehabilitation, many of which explore the topic of measuring and standardizing outcomes in aphasia rehabilitation. How did you become interested in exploring this aspect of aphasia?   Sarah:  Before I completed my PhD, I worked first clinically, as a speech pathologist, and later in a government policy role in the area of aged care quality and safety. I really loved both of these roles for different reasons. As a clinician, I could make a difference at an individual level. But with the government role, I realized the huge impact you can have when you're influencing practice from a systems level. So, when I went on to complete my Ph.D., I really knew that I wanted to do something big picture. At the time, there had been a few big studies coming out with no results. There was a lot of talk about how important it is to get research design right. Then as part of my work at the time, I was reading the World Health Organization, World Report on Disability, and that's where I really started learning about this concept of research wastage and the importance of having a really considered approach to the way we measure outcomes when you want to use data efficiently beyond an individual study. That really appealed to me, particularly given that, within aphasia, we tend to have small sample sizes and really need to make the most of the data that we collect.   Janet: Sarah, we often hear the term clinically meaningful in relation to aphasia outcomes. How would you define that term from the perspective of a person with aphasia? And also, from the perspective of aphasia clinicians and researchers?   Sarah:  This is an excellent question. This is something that I was really interested in during my Ph.D. It's this idea of what is a meaningful outcome. And who actually gets to decide that? And are we measuring what matters to the people who live with aphasia, and the clinicians who work with them? I remember reading at the time, and one of my favorite quotes is from a paper by a researcher called Andrew Long. He says, in practice what actually gets measured depends on who wants the data, and for what purpose. I really think that the idea of clinically meaningful depends on who you're asking, and why you're asking. As an example, in the studies that we conducted with people with aphasia and their family members, they thought improved communication was really important. But they also identified a range of outcomes that related to participation, to attitudes, to psychosocial well-being. But then things change when you look at a different stakeholder group. We also spoke to clinicians and managers around the world, and they identified a range of outcomes. But the really interesting part was that improved language itself wasn't actually considered essential. The top outcome that they came up with actually related to family members, that they understand how to communicate with the person with aphasia. I think what it comes down to is the message that I've really tried to share from my research is that different outcomes matter to different people. And we can measure them in so many different ways. And that this is something that we really have to think carefully about.   Janet: Listening to your responses to these first two questions, I can feel the energy! I can feel this passion looking at aphasia rehabilitation from a larger perspective, outside the actual treatment that gets delivered, and thinking about how we make sure that our treatment is the right thing, and is measuring the right thing, whatever, as you say, the right thing is. It depends on who's looking for the data. You've maintained that focus of how can we become a better entity, better clinicians, if you will, at the broader scope? Does that make sense to you?   Sarah: Yeah, it does, and that idea really resonates with me. I think that's definitely been a feature of the work I've done and the work that I continue to do. It's very focused on collaborative efforts and how we can make the most of what we have, so that we can ultimately improve outcomes for people with aphasia.   Janet: I do think we need to pay attention to this. We cannot just assume that if we give a test pre and post treatment, it is a meaningful outcome to a person with aphasia or to their care partners or to a third-party payer.   Sarah, you have led the ROMA group, that is Research Outcome Measurement in Aphasia. As I mentioned earlier that group published three papers describing standardized assessment measures suggested for use in aphasia rehabilitation outcome studies. Would you briefly describe the genesis of the idea for this work and the studies the group has published?   Sarah: Following on from what I mentioned earlier, this was during my Ph.D. Once I had this idea that I wanted to do something to help reduce research wastage in aphasia, I started reading more about approaches to standardizing outcome measurement and came across the work of the Comet Initiative, which is a group that brings together people who are interested in the development of standardized sets of outcomes, which they refer to as Core Outcome Sets. There's this idea that a Core Outcome Set is essentially the minimum outcomes that should be measured in treatment studies of a particular condition. And that really appealed to me. So, we went from there, we conducted a series of studies looking at different stakeholders, gathering thoughts and perspectives about what an important outcome actually is. We conducted a scoping review of outcome measurement instruments so that we could try and match those outcomes to available tools. And then we've had a number of consensus meetings, where we've tried to pair those two things together.   Janet: I think the work of the ROMA group is important, and being part of that group, it's exciting to watch the minds of people all over the world, contribute their various perspectives, and have discussions about the different measures and the value of the measures. While I think it's wonderful to work at this level, this broad level of perspective, at some point, it has to inform our daily clinical practice. How do you see that happening?   Sarah: Yeah, that's a really good question. Essentially, we conduct treatment research so that we can help clinicians and people with aphasia and their families to make informed decisions about treatments. What's going to help? What's the best treatment for a particular issue and for a particular person? To answer these questions, researchers need to measure the effects that a treatment has on a person, what we refer to as outcomes. When we're measuring different outcomes in different ways it makes it harder to compare data, to combine it across studies, and to draw strong conclusions about which treatments work best.   Core outcomes also need to be relevant, and this is the other part that has been really exciting to me. They should capture results that are important to people who live with that condition. Ultimately, I think that the clinical relevance of the ROMA Core Outcome Set lies in what it is hopefully doing - helping to produce the best evidence that we can get for aphasia treatments, so that those treatments can then be implemented into practice in order to improve the lives of people with aphasia and their families.   Janet: I think that those papers should be required reading for every speech-language pathologist dealing with people with aphasia, and also other rehabilitation professionals, because it helps if we can all be thinking in the same way, as you said, to think about treatment candidacy and does one treatment work better, or for a specific person. or someone with a particular aphasia profile, than another kind of treatment? How do we make good clinical decisions for our patients? That's exactly, I think, what you're saying.   I mentioned also earlier that with several colleagues, you recently published a paper titled Operationalizing Treatment Success in Aphasia Rehabilitation. That paper was published in the journal, Aphasiology. I am a great fan of that paper and would like to begin by asking you why it would be important, in your mind, to operationalize treatment outcomes, given the variability that we see among aphasia patients.   Sarah: Thanks, Janet. And yeah, and this is a great paper. It was led by Caterina Breitenstein and other researchers from the Collaboration of Aphasia Trialists. This paper is really trying to answer the question, “What is a successful outcome from treatment?” What are the ways in which we can actually measure that treatment success? This is such an important question because research will end in clinical practice and so much hinges on this decision? Whether a treatment is successful is going to depend on how we define success and whether we can measure that success in a way that can actually be captured.   Janet: Sarah, in light of your thinking about the different stakeholders, how might operationalizing treatment success differ for the various stakeholder groups that you've identified? That is, people with aphasia, family members, clinical and other medical professionals, medical administrators, and aphasia researchers?   Sarah: This is really that idea that different outcomes are important to different people. If we think about this from a societal perspective, or from a healthcare funders perspective, any treatment that's provided as part of clinical care needs to be cost effective. So that might be something that from a funders point of view is a really important outcome. For clinicians, the ability for someone to take part in conversations and to communicate in different settings and roles is something that, through my research, was identified as an important treatment outcome. Then from the perspective of people with aphasia, not surprisingly, it's improved communication. But it's all these other things as well. It's being able to participate in a conversation. It's having a sense of recovered normality and a feeling of autonomy and independence. So again, I really think it's the idea that it really depends on who you're asking, and the perspective that they're coming from.   Janet: Your comments make me think about work done by Jackie Hinckley and others about stakeholders being part of deciding research questions or research directions. It also makes me think about work done by Michael Biel and others about motivation and engagement. All of these, I think, have a bearing on the research or the clinical enterprise. Are people engaged? Are they willing to commit time and resources to a rehabilitation enterprise because they see value in it, and because they see that there's a likelihood of a good outcome. I believe that what you're doing in terms of thinking about operationalizing helps move us along in that direction.   Sarah: Absolutely. I think that's a really important point, that if someone can't see the relevance of what they're working on in therapy, for example, then they're not going to engage in that process. It really starts with goal setting, and really identifying, working with a person to identify, goals which are really going to be functionally relevant to them and to their day-to-day life. I think if you can get that part right, then everything else follows on from that.   Janet: In your paper, you and your colleagues describe the concept of minimal important change, as a way of determining clinically relevant improvement on an outcome measure, considering the average statistically significant change across groups, as well as statistical significance at the individual level. Can you unpack that concept for us and describe how it relates to daily clinical practice?   Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. This is a really exciting idea, I think. Basically, minimal important change, and it is called different things, but this is the term that we've chosen to use, is the smallest change score above which an outcome is experienced by someone as being relevant or meaningful. I really love this idea, because what we're essentially doing is applying qualitative meaning to quantitative change on an outcome measure. To put this in an example, what this might actually look like, what we're asking is, for example, if I do a Western Aphasia Battery, and then do it again, how many points would actually tell me that that person had experienced a level of meaningful change. So that's what we're trying to work out to determine these benchmarks for meaningful change. We've actually recently received funding for this work, which is really, really exciting. We're going to be undertaking a project, where we use an anchor-based method to establish minimal important change scores for the measures that are in the ROMA Core Outcome Set.   Janet: That makes a lot of sense, because I know in the paper, there are some formulas and statistical representations and discussions that might not be easily familiar to some of our listeners. It was a tough read in some parts of your paper, for sure.   Sarah: Yeah, it is. It's probably not the sort of paper that you sit down and read from start to finish, I think. Some of these concepts are complicated, and they are a bit dense, but I sort of see that paper almost as a reference guide. I think it's the sort of thing that you can come back to, and it does, you know, tend to make more sense over time.   Janet: You did give us one example about operationalizing outcomes with the Western Aphasia Battery and minimal important change. Are there a couple of other examples drawn from this paper that you might share, bringing it to the level of our daily clinical practice?   Janet: Sure. Well, I think, overall, one of the really nice things this paper does, is it actually explains that you can determine treatment success in a number of different ways. We go through concepts around, what approach would we take if we're trying to work out does this treatment work for this particular population, and how well does it work? Then we have different approaches where we're looking at who does it work for, looking at individual change on outcome measures. It really walks you through approaches for group level analysis, looking at mean differences between groups in research trials, versus approaches for determining individual therapy response and outcomes, like minimal important change, and like smallest detectable change.   Janet: Is there an idea or a thought, from this paper and from your work in thinking about operationalizing outcomes that you might give to our listeners that they can put into practice on Monday morning in their clinical practice?   Sarah: Absolutely. This is something I've given a lot of thought about recently, because I think it's one thing to have a very theoretical sort of paper, and to think about the minutiae of all of these issues, but I think for clinical practice it comes down to probably about four different things. (One) I mentioned earlier, I really believe that meaningful outcome measurement starts with shared goal setting. You need to work with your clients to really set meaningful goals that are relevant to them, that they are invested in, and that are going to help them to achieve the outcomes that are important to them.   (Two) The next thing I think, is thinking about, “I have these goals.” We have Clinical Practice Guidelines, we have research evidence, and I would encourage clinicians to use those resources to then really think, “Well, which treatments do we know are effective? Which treatment is most likely to work for the person that I have sitting in my clinic?”   (Three) The next part is when we really get to the measurement part of it, which is really thinking about what you want to measure. Thinking about those goals, thinking about your treatment, where would you expect change to happen following that treatment? Are you looking for a change in function? Or in a behavior? Or is it a feeling, is it confidence that you're trying to change or, someone's emotional wellbeing or an attitude? What is it that you're actually looking to change? (Four) Once you've determined what you want to measure, it's then thinking about what's the most appropriate way of measuring that? For something like confidence, the best way to measure that is that it really has to come from the person themselves. It's a PROM (Patient Reported Outcome Measure), it's patient reported, it's self-report. But there are many other ways that we can measure things: performance on a task; a report from a caregiver or significant other; it could be a clinician rating or report. It's really then thinking about what's the best way of measuring this? There are all these resources out there like the Shirley Ryan Ability Lab, or Stroke Engine. There are websites where they break these measures down and can give you some information about their psychometric properties. Do they measure what they say they measure? Is this tool reliable? Is it sensitive enough to actually pick up change? I think if you can consider all those things, then you're well on the way to successful measurement.   Janet: That's a tall order! But I think it's a good order. Perhaps if we started Monday morning with just one of those things, and felt comfortable implementing shared goal setting for example, and that became an easy-to-do, relevant part of our clinical work, then we might move on to the other points that you're making and gradually incorporate them.   Sarah: Absolutely. I think at a basic level make sure your goals match your outcome measures. Make sure you're measuring what you're actually trying to change, I think is the basic message.   Janet: Sarah, that sounds like a pearl of wisdom to me. What I would like to ask you as we draw this interview to a close, reflecting on your career beyond the ROMA papers and this paper that we've been talking about, operationalizing outcome measures, and reflecting on your research and clinical career, you've just dropped one pearl of wisdom. Are there any others or lessons learned that you would like to share with our listeners?   Sarah: Yeah, sure. Thinking about my career sort of in total, one of the real highlights of it has been collaboration. I think working together is my other pearl of wisdom, so to speak. I think when we work together and we collaborate, we use our efforts to the best, and in the most efficient way possible, we can reduce research wastage, and we can really put our combined efforts towards improving the lives of people with aphasia. Me personally, I'm involved in a group called the Collaboration of Aphasia Trialists and they have a brilliant website. They're a global network of aphasia researchers, with a lot of resources on their website, which are intended for clinicians to use. They have a particular emphasis on multilingual assessment and outcomes and treatment, which is relevant to all of us in the world that we live in. We're often seeing really diverse populations in the clinic. So, I think yeah, that's my other pearl.   Janet: Sarah, I am an ardent recycler and believe in reduce, reuse, recycle. You've mentioned twice now in our chat, about reducing research and clinical wastage. I think that's a great phrase I want to remember, so that we're not continuing to reinvent the wheel, or spending time and money and resources doing things over again, and wasting, I thank you for that term and that idea.   Sarah, thank you also for being my guest, and the guest of Aphasia Access, for this episode of Aphasia Conversations. I enjoyed our conversation, and I will also say, I think we could probably continue to talk for hours about several other topics, especially related to motivation and engagement and measurement, but we'll stop for now. I learned a lot of new things in reading to prepare for our discussion and also listening and talking with you. I think that your work in aphasia rehabilitation and change measurement is important, very important, not just from an academic point of view, or a third-party payer or funding point of view, but most importantly from the patient's point of view, so that we are delivering the best, most effective treatment we can in the most efficient manner. So, thank you for being my guest today.   Sarah: Thank you for having me, it's been a pleasure.   Janet: I also would like to take a moment to thank all of you, our listeners, for your continuing interest in Aphasia Access conversations. As a reminder, check the Show Notes for today's episode for any references or resources mentioned in today's podcast. For more information on Aphasia Access, and to access our growing library of materials, go to www.aphasia.access.org. If you have an idea for a future podcast topic, please email us at info at aphasia access.org. Thank you again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access                               References, Links, and Podcasts References Biel, M., Enclade, H, Richardson, A., Guerrero, A. & Patterson, J.P. (2022). Motivation in aphasia rehabilitation: A scoping review. American Journal of Speech-Language Pathology, 31,2421-2443. https://doi.org/10.1044/2022_AJSLP-22-00064 Breitenstein, C., Hilari, K., Menahemi-Falkov, M., L. Rose, M., Wallace, S. J., Brady, M. C., Hillis, A. E., Kiran, S., Szaflarski, J. P., Tippett, D. C., Visch-Brink, E., & Willmes, K. (2022). Operationalising treatment success in aphasia rehabilitation. Aphasiology. https://doi.org/10.1080/02687038.2021.2016594 Hinckley, J., Boyle, E., Lombard, D. & Bartels-Tobin, L. (2014) Towards a consumer-informed research agenda for aphasia: preliminary work, Disability and Rehabilitation, 36:12, 1042-1050, https://doi.org/10.3109/09638288.2013.829528  Long, A. F., Dixon, P., Hall, R., Carr-Hill, R. A., & Sheldon, T. A. (1993). The outcomes agenda: Contribution of the UK clearing house on health outcomes. Quality in Health Care, 2 49–52. https://doi.org/10.1136/qshc.2.1.49 Wallace, S. J., Worrall, L., Rose, T., Le Dorze, G., Breitenstein, C., Hilari, K., Babbitt, E.… Webster, J. (2019). A core outcome set for aphasia treatment research: The ROMA consensus statement. International journal of stroke : official journal of the International Stroke Society, 14(2), 180–185. https://doi.org/10.1177/1747493018806200 Wallace, S.J., Worrall, L. Rose, T.A., Alyahya, R.S.W., Babbitt. E., Beeke. S., de Beer, C….Le Dorze, G. (under review). Measuring communication as a core outcome in aphasia trials: Results of the ROMA-2 international core outcome set development meeting. International Journal of Language and Communication Disorders.   Links Collaboration of Aphasia Trialists.  https://www.aphasiatrials.org/ Comet Initiative. http://www.comet-initiative.org/ ROMA COS. Core outcome set for aphasia research – The Collaboration of Aphasia Trialists Shirley Ryan Ability Lab. https://www.sralab.org/ Stroke Engine. https://strokengine.ca/en/   Aphasia Access Podcasts Episode #69: Motivation and engagement in aphasia rehabilitation: In conversation with Michael Biel Episode #88: Everyone's an expert: Person-centeredness in the clinic and research - A conversation with Jackie Hinckley

We hear about the dangers of pornography, rightfully so. But can pornography ever be helpful in the process of healing from trauma and with one's sexual identity? In this podcast Sarah bravely shares her story as a faithful LDS who experienced sexual assault and how pornography helped her reclaim her identity and heal from the abuse.    0:00:00.0 Speaker 1: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of improving intimacy.   [music]   0:00:24.6 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of improving intimacy. On today's episode, we have Sarah who has offered to go into a very vulnerable and maybe even scary past with sexual assault and what you did to... Is it fair to say, heal or recover? Thrive in spite of that tragedy. So welcome, Sarah, I'm glad to have you here. This is a topic I haven't discussed yet, so one, I wanna be sensitive to your background and history, and I'll let you guide the conversation, but you've expressed the importance of sharing this for other people, so I'm excited to hear what you have to say. So Sarah, tell us a little bit about yourself. Why are you here today, and what is it exactly you wanna share?   0:01:11.7 Sarah: Well, thank you first of all for having me on. I am very passionate about this because I remember growing up thinking that this was... I was surely the only person who this was happening to, and then as we'll discuss later, some issues that came up in marriage that just increased that feeling of isolation and shame and loneliness, and I vowed at the time to... If I ever have an opportunity to talk about it, to talk about it so that someone out there is not feeling the same way I did. So that's why I'm so passionate about this, and I think we can just start with that kind of history of what it was like to grow up and date and then move into a marriage and have some of those same issues with little education.   0:01:53.5 DB: Yes, it's an important topic that we don't discuss a lot now, I appreciate your bravery in doing this, so let's... We don't need to go in, you're welcome to go into as much details you absolutely want, but for context, are you comfortable with sharing maybe the age this happened? So that we have a little understanding of the history of what's going on there and any details that you're comfortable with sharing.   0:02:18.0 Sarah: Sure, so I grew up just in a normal LDS family, a very strong LDS family, all my siblings remained active, so I had great role models, looking up to them, I was active in a Young Women's, everything was just in line for the perfect fairytale story. And I never really dated much in high school, and I just remember thinking, "Oh, I just want a boyfriend so badly," and I watched all my friends date and I just thought, "Oh, that sounds so wonderful. That's something that I'd really like." And then I had my first boyfriend, and we went out on a few dates, and I was 17 at the time. And I remember thinking, being so excited for the first kiss, and then the first kiss happened and when within maybe five to 10 seconds, my shirt was off and he was un-fastening my bra clasp and I thought...   0:03:12.7 DB: So you mean he took it off...   0:03:14.1 Sarah: Yeah, yeah, he... It was like first kiss, peck, and then I thought I was gonna have this time to like, "Oh, kinda float away and enjoy this moment of happy ever after", and I was like, "Whoa, what is going on?" And I didn't know what was going on, I didn't know what these things I was feeling, what they were, and I was just very overwhelmed with the situation and I didn't stop anything, 'cause I think I was just struck with terror and just being overwhelmed and thinking, "Well, no one's talked about what this is, I don't know what is going on." And I don't actually even remember how that ended, but I remember leaving, sitting in the car feeling like I can't go home. My parents are gonna know that I broke the Law of Chastity, I wouldn't have to talk to the bishop who's my best friend's dad...   0:04:06.0 DB: You felt responsible for it.   0:04:09.7 Sarah: 100%. It was my fault, 100%. And just that was the beginning of... And I was 17 years old, that was the beginning of not talking to my parents about these experiences, thinking that I was the only one, but also thinking that that's what every girl was experiencing.   0:04:26.9 DB: You had no idea?   0:04:27.6 Sarah: Yeah. I was the only one, yeah, I was the only one responsible but every other girl surely had to be having these experiences, but it wasn't their fault. So that was just kind of the beginning of a long trail, and I didn't necessarily at that time know that that was sexual assault. I just kind of thought, "That's dating, here we go." [chuckle]   0:04:49.3 DB: How scary.   0:04:50.9 Sarah: So scary. And he was preparing to go on a mission, and so I was like, "Oh well, he's this great guy who's gonna go and serve the Lord and do all these things, and surely it's my fault." And I'd been raised with this mentality that modesty is my responsibility and how I dress will directly impact what boys do to me and how boys think.   0:05:12.6 DB: And that's what you're thinking was your fault?   0:05:16.6 Sarah: Totally.   0:05:17.1 DB: Was because... Do you feel like you were dressed immodestly that evening?   0:05:19.6 Sarah: No, actually, I had come from playing a volleyball game, so I had been wearing athletic gear and in my mind, I'm like sweaty and gross. [chuckle] No one wants to do that, right? And also, I should note that I developed rather quickly as a child, I was... I started puberty at 10 years old, so at 10 years old, I was fully grown as a woman, and I think I internalized a lot of shame about that, of having this really grown-up body and this little girl's brain and not really understanding how to handle both of those mindsets. So when that happened, it was like, "Oh, well, that's because I have this grown woman's body, [chuckle] and he can't control himself."   0:06:03.9 DB: And therefore, it was your fault.   0:06:05.3 Sarah: Oh, totally. Totally. So that was the first experience. Then I graduated high school, he went on a mission, and I just kept having experience after experience with these boys who were raised in the same faith that I was raised in, who had just no concept of boundaries. I just started to think that if I was going to be kissed, I was gonna be touched, and there was nothing really that I could do to stop it, it was just normal. I came to expect that of good return missionaries, good boys who were leaving on missions, that was just what dating was for me. I didn't think anything different.   0:06:49.7 DB: I think that's the most tragic thing I'm hearing... Well, one, the most tragic thing is that you were abused, I guess the close second is that you weren't even aware that you were abused and taken advantage of, and at what point did you look back and say That was wrong. That wasn't my fault?   0:07:09.4 Sarah: Not until I was married.   0:07:11.3 DB: Oh, wow.   0:07:14.3 Sarah: Yeah. And because I had nothing to compare it to. I didn't know anything about sex, I didn't know anything about consent, I didn't know... And at this point, I didn't even know that girls could masturbate. [chuckle] I literally thought that it was just a boy thing.   0:07:27.2 DB: Oh, you mean physiologically.   0:07:29.4 Sarah: Yes. I didn't think it was possible. I knew absolutely nothing about sex and about body, so this was happening, and I was just thinking, "Oh, this is just normal." So I didn't equate it with abuse, I wasn't having traumatic reactions to it, but I did start to kind of spiral a little bit where I just kind of thought, "Well, if guys are gonna do this to me, then I'm just gonna kiss and have fun with whoever I want and do whatever I want and.   0:07:54.2 DB: Interesting.   0:07:56.0 Sarah: Not worry about the consequences."   0:07:58.1 DB: Tell me a little bit more about that line of thinking, what led you to that as opposed to not dating at all, maybe, or some other... I don't wanna put words in your mouth. What gave you that conclusion, you're just gonna have fun, you're gonna kiss and regardless of the consequences, what led you there?   0:08:19.4 Sarah: I think part of it was I was seeing my dear friends get married, from what I understand, and maybe they had been through similar things and just hadn't talked to me about it, but they were getting married and I wasn't. And so I kind of thought, "Oh, well, I'm just like the girl who's gonna get passed around.   0:08:38.7 DB: Oh my goodness.   0:08:38.7 Sarah: So, I'm gonna have fun in the meantime."   0:08:41.3 DB: So you were taken on a narrative that you were broken or undesired, or would that be fair to say, or what were your feelings or thoughts?   0:08:49.9 Sarah: I wasn't feeling broken, but I was feeling very much... They're just interested in my body, they're not interested in a long-term commitment, they're not interested in marriage, I'm not like these other girls, they're the marriageable type, they're just in it for my body, and at the same time, I was kind of having this body awakening where I was finally feeling my brain match up with my body in maturity, I was feeling like, "Oh, I'm coming into this woman's body, I'm feeling myself become less impulsive, I'm feeling myself develop as mentally as a woman, I'm leaving that childhood teenage years behind, I'm feeling empowered in my body. And at the same time, I'm only being wanted for my body." So I was like, "I'm just gonna use my body however I want."   0:09:42.7 DB: I'm curious, we talked about this a little before we started the podcast, and we shared some thoughts and ideas here, but for the listeners, you're in your mid-20s, just for context, so we're talking about a younger generation, and I realize... I have a good 20 years on you, and dating has always been a struggle, and so I don't know if there's a way to say it's worse now or better or the same, however, in the context that it seems like we as a church have been doing more, whether it be through fire sides or church manuals, really emphasizing how men are supposed to treat women with respect, I think they've done more with that in the last 20 years, yet, you're not alone. This is a story I hear all the time, you're just one of the first, who've been willing to come and talk about it. Tell me what are your thoughts, what's your opinion of why the young men are thinking this way, why do they think this is, okay, or do they think it's Okay?   0:10:49.2 Sarah: Well, and we know that sexual assault and rape has been around for as long as people have been on the earth, that's just... It's just the downfall of man... Well, and woman, both can be abusers or perpetrators, but I think in the context of this, there was this generation of 60s and 70s where it was free love and the world was going so radically in one direction that the church narrative pulled so radically in the other direction. I remember talking to my mom like years later, after I had actually been more assaulted and saying, "Why didn't you tell me, why didn't you tell me what to expect or tell me anything about my body, or just tell me what sex is? And she said, "Your father and I felt like if we talked about it, we were giving you permission to do it." And that to me, was just that mindset of that generation, the policies that were coming out from the church in that generation was all fear-based, shame-based and at the same time, there's more material available, so our children at this time are educating themselves with porn, which is a terrible sex educator, and they're not learning, they're not reconciling what they're seeing, what feeling and what the person in the porn is doing.   0:12:09.5 Sarah: And so if the person in porn who's on the receiving end is showing fear and showing discomfort and these young boys are watching it enjoying it, how are they to not know that it's gonna be different in person with a partner? Now how are they not... They're not gonna know, "Oh, this is a boundary that I'm crossing. This person is scared, their body is showing scared, their face is showing fear, their voice is showing fear, they may not have said, no," but... We've set them up for failure, we've set them up in this position of not knowing they're crossing boundaries, not knowing what consent is, because we've been so afraid to talk about it.   0:12:54.6 DB: I think you articulated it perfectly, this is a constant problem I'm seeing. I usually see two extremes where young men refuse to date or they don't know how to engage in dating at all, and so they don't even... It's not even a physical thing, they don't even know how to involve themselves, and again, this has always been the case, but I've been seeing this kind of this extremism getting bigger and bigger.   0:13:23.1 Sarah: The divide.   0:13:24.4 DB: And then we have the others who, while they understand that porn is bad, and it seems like in the church we've done, we've talked more about porn, we have more anti-porn programs and organizations out there than we've ever had yet this is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. And I think what I was hearing you say was, "Yes, we're told... " And I wanna clarify for the audience too, 'cause it could sound like we're saying, "Oh gosh, the church screwed up in all of its teachings there... " Do you consider yourself an active member now?   0:13:55.0 Sarah: Yeah.   0:13:55.1 DB: And this is...   0:14:00.1 Sarah: Yep, active member, temple holding member, half callings... I was the Young Women's president just barely.   0:14:03.7 DB: Forgive me, I didn't wanna make that as though that was the most important thing here, I just wanna give context that this isn't just criticism, this is crucial for a healthy, engaging dating behavior. Absolutely, and so what we see here is young men who're told what not to do, and you said it before the interview, it's because they're not taught what to do. We could talk all day and night about what not to do, but when you're placed in a situation, all you have to go off of is what you've seen and heard, and that's the don'ts and the bad role models of porn.   0:14:43.4 Sarah: Exactly. And at the same time as a girl, the rhetoric that I was receiving was not what not to do, dress your body in this way so that the boys can control their thoughts, you act this way so that you're not tempting to the boys. There was all this don't, don't, don't. And it very much was my responsibility how the boys and the men in my life treated me, and I have a fantastic father, and I have fantastic brothers who never once crossed any sort of sexual boundary, never even came close to it with anyone that I'm aware of, not with myself and not anyone else, but it was... I remember walking up to the stand to give a Young Women talk thinking, "Oh my gosh, are the men in the ward like looking at my butt?"   0:15:28.3 DB: Oh my goodness.   0:15:29.1 Sarah: As I walk up there, "Is my skirt too tight? Are my hips too wide? Am I... [chuckle] Are they cheating on their wives by lusting after me?"   0:15:37.6 DB: Because... Oh my goodness.   0:15:38.1 Sarah: And I was like 16.   0:15:41.8 DB: First of all, the thought that comes to me is, "No youth, should ever be concerned with that thinking about that," and you're saying those fears and concerns were present because of the modesty lessons that you've received.   0:15:53.0 Sarah: Totally.   0:15:55.7 DB: And thinking that you need to do everything you can to help protect these men, young and old from being tempted.   0:16:03.8 Sarah: Totally.   0:16:06.0 DB: That's heavy.   0:16:07.4 Sarah: Super heavy.   0:16:07.9 DB: This is heavy, and I'm gonna diverge just a little bit here, because I think it's important to speak to... People are probably listening here and saying, "Oh gosh, Well, if young men understand that porn is bad, then why are they behaving... " Okay, I hear that they weren't taught how to behave correctly, a little insight that I've discovered in working with young men is this kind of same thing again, they have been tempted, they cannot resist their urges... Sorry, this is the scripts that they're told once they experience desire, they're on a dangerous path. One support group, and I don't mean to be critical, but the concern is one support group actually says it's Satan's Chemical, and this is an LDS support group, so imagine... So the reason why I'm bringing this up is you as a 16-year-old, you were concerned about married men sinning by looking at you.   0:17:10.4 Sarah: Yes.   0:17:10.4 DB: And now, with young men, what I've seen is something similar, different, but similar in that they start to have this experience where they're getting aroused, they have an erection, they immediately think, they're doomed. I had one 14-year-old tell me, I thought... I thought he... I'm not trying to be loose with my words or silly at all, this is the impression and his countenance when he came in, I thought he killed somebody. This kid was scared and he looked at me and he started to say things like, young man saying things like, "I'm on the path to becoming a rapist, I'm on a path to become a serial killer." He was saying these things, and then he said something that just... That alone was scary and heavy, but where I'm going with this is, he said, "I've also destroyed my... " What was the word he used? He said something to the effect of, "I've disappointed my future wife and let my future kids down."   0:18:18.6 Sarah: That's so sad.   0:18:19.9 DB: Just like you... Well, again, different, but like you're carrying this huge weight, so these young men, what I'm seeing is they feel like they're at this impossible journey.   0:18:32.0 DB: And so, they just give up and they say, "I'm just doing it, I'm already gone." And this poor kid, he was scared out of his mind. So people are probably listening say, "Still why would... " Well, because they're not taught what is good, so all they're going off of is their fear and they're giving in because they recognize, they can't even resist it, it seems impossible. That relate to your experience or what are your thoughts?   0:19:01.9 Sarah: Totally. Well, it's... Looking back now, and even at the time, I thought, "These were good guys." In every other regard, they were good guys. And then, I think it just was... There was no boundary, there was no consent. It's hard because we've damaged both, both genders in this talk, we've told the girls that it's their responsibility and they're... Sorry for the strong language, but they're damned for having the female bodies, and we've told the boys they're damned for having physiological responses that they can't control. [chuckle] And this is the extreme that I think we deal with is... I was 21 years old and my minor was sex education, and I remember sitting at the University of Utah, going and my professor saying female masturbation and going, "That's not possible." I was 21, and I had no clue that that was something that girls did, because I had only ever heard masturbation in reference to boys in the church, and that was the extent of my sex education, that was a mind-blowing thing of like, "Holy cow." We have hurt each other so badly just by not knowing, A How our bodies work. B, our bodies are working normally, and C, let's now communicate with each other. None of that was in my vocabulary.   0:20:30.0 Sarah: So to kind of continue with my story...   0:20:31.2 DB: Please.   0:20:31.5 Sarah: I kinda went through this rough patch where I was like, "I'm just gonna kiss anyone who has two legs and walks into the room." And at the same time, I'm still... I'm the secretary in the Relief Society presidency in my singles ward, and I feel like I'm living these two separate lives. There's the version of me who is dating and there's a version of me who's going to church and I can't reconcile them. And then the age I turned in my mission papers and I said, "I'm gonna go on a mission, that's gonna be what's kinda turned my life around, I'm gonna go on a mission." So I got myself straightened out, I went on a mission, I had a great time, I came back, and then I started dating again. And this guy who I was dating, I thought, "This is gonna be different." He took a couple of weeks to kiss me, we went out for a couple of times, and my mission for me was very empowering because I learned how to speak up and out for myself, I think it's really hard to go on a mission and not kinda gain that confidence, a little bit in yourself. So I came back with that confidence of, I'm gonna...   0:21:47.6 Sarah: Now I know how to say no. And then I started dating this guy, and it's like, "Oh, it's different." He's being such a gentleman. And this could be, this could be the long-term thing, and then things started to change again.   0:22:01.3 DB: My goodness.   0:22:03.7 Sarah: So we had to hung out one night and his parents had left out of town, and he was like, "Why don't you come out, you come over, and we'll just, hang out and it'll be a really good evening, and... " I ended up spending the night. And nothing like nothing happened during the night, we just fell asleep in the bed, we cuddled all night long, there was no sexual pressure, and then it was in the middle of the night, something changed, and then suddenly it was like he was begging me to do all of these things, and I just said, "What is wrong with you? What has happened?" And...   0:22:44.2 DB: You called him out.   0:22:45.2 Sarah: I called him out, and he... And then I just said to him, "When was the last time you looked at porn?" And he disclosed to me that he... And he said he'd had a porn addiction since he was 14. And at this stage in my life, I was like, "Oh, well, that's okay. I know a lot of guys deal with that, so this isn't gonna end our relationship, but I want you to work through it and I want you to talk to the bishop, and I don't expect perfection, but I do want respect." So I'm thinking, I'm so grown up, I'm having this really grown-up conversation. This guy is telling... I won't go too far into what I think about that now, but for the context of the story at this time, I was thinking, "I'm so great that I can work through this with him, and he's so great that he's being honest with me." So I think we're on a great path and we keep dating, and then he just starts walking across that boundary again, and I just keep thinking, "Oh my gosh, I've gotta fix him, I've got to be sexier, so he's not looking at porn. I've got to... " And I was trying so hard not to do the things that he was wanting me to do, and at the same time he was telling me, "If you don't do these things, I'm gonna look at porn."   0:24:02.9 DB: Oh my goodness.   0:24:04.8 Sarah: So again, I'm like, "Holy crap, how am I back at this spot where I'm again responsible for this guy's sexuality?" At the same time he's telling me he loves me and he wants to get married, there was just something about the relationship that was making me stick my heels. And if, "We're not gonna be exclusive, we're gonna date other people, 'cause you can't figure this out, and until you can figure this out, I'm not jumping in with you." And I think honestly, that was probably, is the spirit trying to keep me safe, and I didn't recognize it at the time, but... This was the relationship where it turned violent pretty quick.   0:24:42.4 DB: Physically violent?   0:24:43.3 Sarah: Sexually violent. So there was just a lot of fear involved in it, there was a lot of manipulation, there was me saying, No. Me begging to stop, and there was just, No, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do." But it had never turned into full penetration, and then he at some point in the relationship, he brings up marriage again, "If we get married, I'll be able to stop looking at this porn because we'll be able to do everything that we want. It won't be... "   0:25:14.2 DB: Such a lack of education there.   [laughter]   0:25:17.1 Sarah: Huge lack of education.   0:25:17.9 DB: Or bad education.   0:25:21.6 Sarah: Yeah.   0:25:21.7 DB: Oh my goodness, and...   0:25:21.8 Sarah: And I'm believing it, because I don't have any education either, so... And my minor now is in sex education and I'm like, "Sure...   0:25:30.2 DB: Yeah, I was going to bring that up.   0:25:30.3 Sarah: Great. This will fix it." 'Cause that's what we've been taught in the church is like, you get married and then it's, "No, it's no, no, no, to go, go go, and all your sexual problems are gone."   0:25:38.4 DB: Yeah, it's one of the biggest myths. I don't think it's fair to say a lie, because I think the leadership and the people who are saying this truly believe it, I don't think they're being deceptive, but it just goes to the core of this whole podcast episode is the lack of education. The lack of good education, not just in the negative, but in informative strategies, and I don't even know where that idea came from, that if you get married, the porn habit goes away. That couldn't be further from the truth.   0:26:11.0 Sarah: Right?   0:26:12.1 DB: If it does, it's coincidental. That's mere coincidence. We could talk about that a little bit more, but this is sad, this is the thing that is most upsetting to me when working with people who have a lack of sexual education, 'cause all they know is porn is bad, but they have no idea of what it looks like to have a healthy relationship. So you're dealing with this. Are you able to say... Can you say, how you got out of it, or what did you do?   0:26:46.4 Sarah: Yeah. So there were... So while we were dating, I kept thinking, there's this other guy who I know, we're really good friends. If he would just come to me and just say, "Hey, would you marry me? I would do it in a heartbeat." I just felt so strongly about this friend, and at the same time this other guy is treating me so poorly, and I'm thinking it's all my fault, and I'm feeling so guilty and I'm going to my Bishop and I'm telling my Bishop, "These things are happening. How do I fix them?" And he's giving me more tools than anyone ever had, he's giving me books about pornography, he's giving me... Which were I think, [chuckle] very skewed towards the church's narrative. I don't think they were necessarily a scientifically-based, they were much more along the basis of, "It's an addiction. It's the same thing as doing cocaine", which is absolutely not true.   0:27:44.9 DB: I wanna get into that. And of course, I don't wanna diverge you... I do wanna come back to that. So he was helpful. Was that... At what point... Okay, so what you're saying is that guidance was helpful in ending this current relationship?   0:28:00.5 Sarah: It was helpful in knowing that it wasn't just my fault.   0:28:03.0 DB: Okay.   0:28:03.3 Sarah: And that I could be empowered in the relationship, and he was the first person who kind of said to me like, "If this isn't the future you want, then you don't have to be in it."   0:28:14.2 DB: Good for him.   0:28:15.1 Sarah: Right? And so, but there was still... And that's the hard part about Bishops is that, I think if it had been someone with clinical understanding, they would have said, "This is an abusive relationship," and instead it was like, "If you just don't want porn to be a part of your relationship, just date someone else." And I was like, "Well, that would be nice, but open your eyes, that's not possible."   0:28:40.3 DB: Exactly.   0:28:40.8 Sarah: So at this point, I'm taking my garments off, 'cause I just feel so unworthy and...   0:28:48.7 DB: You weren't instructed to, you just chose to.   0:28:51.1 Sarah: No. And I'm just myself choosing not to take the sacrament, 'cause I just feel so unworthy. And then this guy who I've thought so much about calls me out of the blue and he's like, "Hey, let's go to lunch." And we go to lunch one day and I just thought, "Okay, I'm ending it. I'm ending it because there's something about this guy, I'm gonna end it." So I did, I ended this relationship, then I didn't hear from this guy again. [chuckle]   0:29:20.6 DB: The guy you were interested?   0:29:21.7 Sarah: Yeah. The guy that I was interested, who kinda gave me hope again for men, and I was like, "Well, that's probably better, 'cause I'm in the spot where I probably need to do some healing and working on myself and... " So I don't date anyone for a while, and I work on myself, and then I'm getting lonely, getting really lonely, and I run into this guy who I had been... This guy who I'd been in the relationship with, and I run into him on campus and he's like, "Hey, do you wanna come over?"   0:30:00.3 DB: Even though you've cut it off?   0:30:00.5 Sarah: Yeah, I've cut off. It's been months and I was so lonely that I was like...   0:30:03.9 DB: 'Cause, there's no boundaries.   0:30:05.0 Sarah: Yeah, there's no boundaries and I'm just lonely. So I'm like, "Yeah, of course," it's like, we're good friends and I still cared about him even though, 'cause I didn't know that it was an abusive relationship.   0:30:14.5 DB: Right. And I'm making an assumption here. You just said that you were really lonely, and do you feel like that played into you saying yes also, or...   0:30:26.4 Sarah: Yeah, totally. I just was... I was lonely, all my friends had been married, I'm just back from my mission. [chuckle] It's a hard transition back. We've been dating for seven or eight months when we ended it, so now it's probably like nine or 10 months after, and so we just start talking again, we just started being friends. And then, the other guy who I was interested in at the other time, he calls me up, and he's like, "Do you wanna go on a date?"   0:30:57.9 DB: His timing is interesting.   0:31:00.8 Sarah: At the same time. Yes. So at the same time, these guys are like back in my life at the exact same time, and... So long story short, I ended up saying... This is gonna be so confusing probably to the listeners, but I ended up saying to this guy who I had been dating, "Hey, this other guy asked me out." And, 'cause we were just friends and something... I saw something in his eyes switch. He was like, "Oh, well, yeah, you always talked about him and how much you liked him and how much you respected him, and he's kind of the obstacle that was in our path of us moving forward." I was like, "Not really."   0:31:37.6 DB: Rather he's... The hope in saving you?   0:31:38.9 Sarah: Yeah, I was like, No, it was probably the narrative, but I had, was that I was responsible for your sexuality, for your porn use, and I couldn't fix that anymore, so he ended up asking me to join him for the middle of the day for lunch, and I went over...   0:31:58.3 DB: Which one?   0:31:58.3 Sarah: The guy who I had dated.   0:32:00.7 DB: Okay.   0:32:00.9 Sarah: So I went over to his house during lunch, we left campus together, he drove me there and we were... I remember thinking, "Okay, are we ever gonna eat lunch?" 'Cause we just sat in his room for a while, and then he raped me. And I just remember laying there and it just started off as just normal kissing, and I was like, "Hey, this is weird, but where is this going?" And then it was right back to 17-year-old me who suddenly was being touched and this time I was saying, "No, please stop. No, I don't want this." And it happened anyway. And so that happens, and I looked at him afterwards and he got up and he said, "Let's go back to school." And I looked at him and I hugged him. I hugged him, and I said, "I didn't want that to happen." And I hugged him, 'cause I was so scared that I wasn't gonna be, like I wasn't gonna survive or something, like... My brain just went in to do whatever you need to do to get out of there.   0:33:09.1 DB: Trauma mode.   0:33:09.9 Sarah: Oh, totally. So we got back at school and then I called my... I texted my friend and I texted her and I said, "I just had sex. What do I do now?" And this friend had had sex before marriage as well when she was dating.   0:33:26.6 DB: Not, I was raped, and how do I report him, but what do you do?   0:33:30.1 Sarah: No. No. 100 percent, in my mind it was, "I had had sex." So I call her and she's like, "Oh, it's okay, you'll be okay, it's hard, but you can... You might not be able to take the sacrament for a couple of months, but you can get back and call your Bishop and... " So at this point, I am about to go into work, I'm sick to my stomach, I am shaking and I think, "I just had sex for the first time." So I call my Bishop, I go to the Bishop's office or I go to his house, 'cause it was a Friday night and I'm just devastated, and I walk in and he's like, "What can I do for you?" And I slide my temple garment across the table to him, and I'm like, "I'm no longer worthy of this." And he was like, "Okay, well, tell me what happened?" And so I start saying, start describing to him what happened, and.   0:34:24.6 DB: Is this is the same Bishop that provided you good resources? .   0:34:27.2 Sarah: Yes. Thank goodness.   0:34:27.8 DB: Yes.   0:34:28.4 Sarah: Same Bishop, and he stops me and he says, "No, you didn't have sex. You were raped." And it just suddenly was like, "That's what that was."   0:34:39.2 DB: He called it out.   0:34:39.4 Sarah: He called it out.   0:34:41.1 DB: Excellent.   0:34:41.6 Sarah: Yes, and he said, "I have, I've known you for a while. I've been working with you for a while, from what you've described, your relationship with this guy, you've tried really, really hard, and he has not respected that, and he took full advantage of you and he raped you." And I just sat there stunned. I finally had a word for what was happening, and thank goodness, this Bishop was so in tune and he said, "You know, I don't know how to help you." He said, "I can help you with spiritual healing if you need it, but I don't know how to help you and I'm gonna pay for you to find help." 'Cause at this point, I also didn't have insurance and I was too afraid to tell my parents, so I'm like, [chuckle] "Ah, what do I do?" And I didn't go to the hospital to get any forensic exams done, 'cause I didn't know I had been raped, and suddenly here's this ecclesiastical leader pointing me in the direction of help, and it was life-saving, so he paid for me to see a therapist and I was in therapy within a week, and that made all the difference in my life. And I had a male therapist where... He said, "I'm gonna send you to a male therapist" and I said, "What have you been smoking Bishop? I'm not gonna go sit across from a man and tell him what happened." And he said, "I think that you need a man to listen to you." And so I had to sit...   0:36:02.1 DB: This Bishop wasn't a counsel, he had no training.   0:36:05.1 Sarah: No. No training.   0:36:07.6 DB: This is interesting. Sorry, I think this is actually an important concept that a lot of...   0:36:12.6 Sarah: Totally.   0:36:12.7 DB: People don't realize. When I was working, in my training, I was serving the community in a community center, and that was the first time that I found women who had been raped were asking for male therapists, and that was before I really understood something called Gestalt therapy, if you're familiar.   0:36:30.3 Sarah: Yes. Yeah.   0:36:32.4 DB: And this is their opportunity... There's many reasons to do this, and there are some... I wanna be clear, there are some reasons not to do it either also, and so what this allows, and I'm curious to hear your experiences is, I like how the Bishop said, is it gives a man an opportunity, you get to have a man listen to you and validate you. It also provides the victim an opportunity in a gestalt model for those who aren't familiar, there's this concept of empty chair or imagining that the therapist is your aggressor and you lash out at them in a therapeutic way or whatever, you confront them that way, and so it can be very therapeutic if you're ready for that. It's always hard to tell. But what was your experience? So he suggested this, it looked like you're a little surprised.   0:37:25.1 Sarah: Totally.   0:37:26.4 DB: But you followed through and you found a male therapist?   0:37:28.0 Sarah: Yeah, he actually gave me a referral, he said I... He had had a friend who was a therapist or was very aware of clinical concepts or whatever that... She suggested I see a man. So he gave me the number, I called and made the appointment myself. And I walked in not really knowing what to expect. I had never been to therapy before, and I walked in and I sat down and just kind of started talking about my life and my past and everything that was going on in this relationship and being stuck on the concept of like, "I had lost my virginity." One thing that he said in that first day was, "No. No, you don't lose your virginity, that's a social construct, you don't lose your virginity. No one takes that from you." And that was the beginning of realizing, "Okay, I've got some very unhealthy and harmful narratives in my mind, and I need to change them."   0:38:26.9 DB: So, you're presenting this is as very accepting and like, "Oh, yeah." What's it like that for you at the moment? Did you push back at all? Did you... What was your awakening, healing process like, was it difficult to receive that information or was it healing?   0:38:43.5 Sarah: The difference was, is that he was clinically trained, and so he... As opposed to saying it to a bishop or a parent, he had this clinical training to... I could see the surprise on his face when I was telling him these things that I thought were normal. And so, much like, right now, I'm telling you things and you have these surprise looks on your face and it's so validating.   0:39:04.9 DB: Oh good. [laughter]   0:39:06.9 Sarah: Right? It is 100% validating to think, "These things that I thought were normal, that every girl experienced, are horrifying to this man, and he would never treat a girl this way or a female this way." And I can see it on his face. And he's a member of the church, and this isn't right.   0:39:24.4 DB: The therapist?   0:39:25.3 Sarah: Yeah, this therapist. So that was probably what made me actually accept it, was that, "Here's this guy who believes the same thing I do, who is horrified and shocked and in tears at some point with what I'm telling him and how I've assumed and accepted as a normal behavior."   0:39:47.6 DB: You can't... I don't know, I can't speak for every therapist, but I've heard stories and no two stories are the same. Everybody's experience is unique, but it's heart wrenching each time. I hope, one, I hope I never get used to hearing it. If I do, I need to check myself.   [laughter]   0:40:11.7 DB: It's heart-breaking, and again, to repeat what you're saying, this at the beginning... This is why it's so important for you to speak out and I appreciate that. So, continue from there. What was your journey like? How long were you in therapy? What was your discoveries along that path?   0:40:28.7 Sarah: Well, I think the most important discovery that we made in therapy together was I had this pattern of dating guys who I thought I could fix. 'Cause that was also a narrative that I had taken on is like, "As a disciple of Christ and as a woman of Christ, I have to fix people and I'm gonna make them better." And he said, "You date these people who you think you need to fix, and this is... So, this is like you're going along in your car, and I want you to think of your rape as like you've hit a brick wall. And that brick wall is stopping you from what could be." And I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, if I had married that guy, this would have been my life, and I would not have known." And it always shocks people when I say this, but I will say it, I'm so grateful for it. I'm so grateful for that experience because I walked out of therapy going, "Not again. No one will ever treat me that way again, and I'm not gonna date a guy who's gonna treat me like that." And long story short, I ended up marrying that other guy.   0:41:33.8 DB: The one that was...   [chuckle]   0:41:34.1 Sarah: Yeah. The one who I always wanted to date while I was dating this other guy. We got our act together and we ended up getting married. So, that was... And he was the exact opposite. He was the guy... And ironically, I thought before this experience, I was never good enough for him, either. He's this amazing, incredible guy, and I was like, "I'm not good enough." And I walked out of therapy going, "Oh, I am so good enough for him, and he would be so lucky to have me."   [laughter]   0:42:06.6 DB: What a wonderful discovery. And you brought up something that we kind of glossed over it. I can't tell you how many women end up marrying a situation like that where, because they don't have this discovery, and I'm not... This is tragic. And it's years later that they discover this was horrible. So I appreciate, and I realize it's probably difficult for a lot of people to hear it. We're clearly not saying the abuse was okay.   0:42:36.4 Sarah: No, not at all.   0:42:39.3 DB: But that, as a result, you were awakened, it was an opportunity to get help and to discover more. I'm sure it wasn't as simple as having that discovery and everything's better.   0:42:53.6 Sarah: No, not at all.   0:42:53.7 DB: What was that journey like from there on out? So, you're dating your husband, and...   0:42:58.3 Sarah: So, we're dating, and I'm thinking, "Okay, that's the end of our... The end of my sexual problems." [chuckle] And again, great guy, we start dating, he takes like a month to kiss me and then it's just like little pecks here and there for months, and I'm finally like, "Hey... "   0:43:14.0 DB: Is he aware of this recent experience yet?   0:43:18.1 Sarah: So at this point, no, at this point...   0:43:21.0 DB: So, he's acting all on his accord, he's not... He's not like over...   0:43:23.2 Sarah: Yes. He's not being over-aware or over-sensitive or over-thinking anything.   0:43:28.6 DB: I think that's important for the listeners to know.   0:43:29.0 Sarah: Totally. Yeah.   0:43:30.2 DB: So this is... You found a guy who's true to his behavior here. This is...   0:43:35.5 Sarah: Yeah. He is living his behavior, he is showing me his behavior. And I'm starting to get worried of like, "Okay, why is this not unfolding? Why are we not progressing at all?" And...   0:43:46.8 DB: Isn't that interesting? You're expecting this will happen.   0:43:51.3 Sarah: Yes. I'm expecting that this will happen, 'cause I wanted to, know... I wanted to be able to say no, I like, I was gonna set those boundaries and like we're gonna talk about them, there's gonna be none of this business going on. And he kisses me one night and I pull away from him and I go, "Why won't you kiss me for longer?" And he goes, "I don't wanna have an erection." And I was like, "What? [chuckle] What are you saying?" And he said, "If I have an erection, I'm being disrespectful to you."   0:44:19.0 DB: Wow.   0:44:19.5 Sarah: And he said, My... He had a Bishop when he was 16, tell him the erections were breaking law of chastity, and I was like, "Hey, buddy, if we're kissing and you don't have that response, there's something wrong. There's a bigger issue." [laughter] I was just was so shocked.   0:44:38.7 DB: You had such insight... You had that insight at that time?   0:44:41.7 Sarah: Yeah.   0:44:41.9 DB: Is that something you learned... Forgive me, I'm coming from maybe a place of ignorance here in making some assumptions. After your traumatic experiences, it would seem like, my naive response here, "Oh, good, you're not. You would... " Some people might feed that behavior and say, "Oh good, now I know I'm safe." What allowed you to say, "Oh, this is actually unhealthy?"   0:45:08.6 Sarah: So, my therapist and I worked a lot through that. 'Cause my therapist was very concerned that I started dating this guy, 'cause he said, "You know, I don't want that...   0:45:16.8 DB: Your now husband.   0:45:17.7 Sarah: Yes, my now husband. "I don't want you to feel like that you're getting into this relationship where he's saving you and you're working through some really traumatic things, and we don't want to get that tied up in your relationship."   0:45:29.1 DB: Good.   0:45:29.5 Sarah: So we worked very closely to... And I was very transparent with my therapist with this, now relation... My husband. And so I was talking to him about these concerns and he said, "Well, why don't you just ask him?" I was, at this point, and we had talked about how it's, an erection is a normal response to any sort of stimulus and not to fear it. So I didn't. I wasn't fearing it. And he said, "Any guy who's gonna respect your boundaries is gonna be able to say, 'My pants will calm down,' and I won't touch you." [chuckle] And I... Yeah, I just... I knew this guy was gonna be that way, there was just something about him that he... From the very beginning, he respected me. So, I have this discussion with him and I'm like, "Why are you not kissing me longer, and he's like, I don't wanna disrespect you, is disrespect for you." And I'm like, "Well, I would like to make out. [laughter] So, I'd like to kiss you a little bit longer." And we've been dating for months and let's see if this is going somewhere, and... So, long story short is, he had a lot of that narrative in his mind that he was so afraid of disrespecting women and girls that he had shut down everything.   0:46:40.8 DB: Like I was saying at the beginning.   0:46:41.8 Sarah: Totally. He is the opposite.   0:46:42.7 DB: That extreme. Yeah. I wanna point out, and I hope you don't feel like I'm putting you on a pedestal here, but it sounds like, and I realized, we're reflecting back on the past, the maturity that you gained to have that conversation is amazing.   0:47:00.8 Sarah: Thank you.   0:47:00.9 DB: It's... I don't want that to come out in a way that if others have been through a traumatic experience, can't do that, as any way shameful.   0:47:10.0 Sarah: Not at all.   0:47:10.1 DB: But I wanna emphasize how significant that is, that you didn't just run away or stay or not say anything at all. There's this culture of, "Don't talk about it at all." But you used it as an opportunity to connect with him. Which is a huge part of what I believe is healing, creating connection.   0:47:31.9 Sarah: Totally.   0:47:32.9 DB: Have an awareness of each other as opposed to assuming and labeling and ignoring or just not discussing. That is... I'm trying not to be extreme in my language, but that is truly impressive.   0:47:47.8 Sarah: Thank you.   0:47:48.7 DB: And I think it's important for the listeners to understand both how difficult that is and the fact that you were able to do it, was beautiful.   0:47:56.7 Sarah: Thank you. Well, and I do... It was so helpful to be falling in love, at the same point in therapy, weekly, [chuckle] and at the same point, having these really open discussions with the suitor. So, we'll fast forward to a couple of weeks and he's doing something playfully, like I think he picked me up and twirled me around and I had a traumatic response and I shoved him. And he stepped back and looked at me and was like, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." And I was like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you're fine. I just don't like... "   0:48:35.6 DB: You're still taking the responsibility.   0:48:36.9 Sarah: Yeah. I was like, "I just don't like being picked up." And later that night, I thought, "Okay, I've got to tell him what's going on. I don't want him to think that this is his fault, and, well, this needs to be... "   0:48:47.9 DB: Oh, that's right. 'Cause you hadn't shared with him yet. So this was your opportunity.   0:48:49.0 Sarah: Yeah. So, at this point he has no idea what's going on. And so I sat him down on the couch and I said, "Listen, this is what's happened, and I understand if you wanna walk away." And he was like, "Why would I walk [chuckle] away?" And he just sat and cried.   0:49:04.7 DB: What a different experience?   0:49:05.9 Sarah: So different. He sat and cried with me, he held me while I cried, and he... I don't know how he did this, but he managed his traumatic response in front of me. So, he cried, he... And I told him, "This is a lot for you to handle, I understand that, if you need to tell someone, if you need to tell your parents, if you need to tell a bishop, if you need to tell a friend, please tell someone so you're not holding this by yourself. I have my people who are holding it with me, please get your people." And he... That's when he had his traumatic response of like, "I'm gonna kill this guy, I'm gonna find him... " That's when he had his response to my trauma, but that I was... I didn't have to carry it. And I think that's why we are married. [chuckle] He was able to separate that. [laughter]   0:49:51.1 DB: Yes. And I'm gonna point that out. How crucial that is, again, not to put you on a pedestal, but your ability to create differentiation in the relationship early on and not feel like, while you're communicating and being open and creating connection, you also emphasized, "I'm carrying my load, I've got my people, and if this is concerning, the most effective way to deal is get your own people. Let's not blend our trauma together. Let's support each other, but let's not be each other's therapist."   0:50:22.7 Sarah: Oh yeah.   0:50:23.0 DB: There's a fine line there, of course, but... Very impressive.   0:50:28.5 Sarah: And his mom has been a therapist, and so I said, "Please talk to your mom about this." And I was trying to not be ashamed, and so I didn't want this to be a secret. So I didn't want... You know, [chuckle] to be like, "Oh, my girlfriend's gone through something, but I can't tell my parents about it." It was like, "If I'm a part of your family, this is a part of my life, like this, we're not gonna put it in the closet, it's just gonna be out there. It's what it is." And so our relationship progressed. He went to therapy by himself. He came to therapy with me a few times, and we fell in love, and we got married and I was like, "Okay, here we go, here comes sex. Real sex."   0:51:05.5 DB: Oh-oh.   0:51:06.1 Sarah: Good sex.   0:51:07.1 DB: So, it is good, everything's great, happy ever after, right?   0:51:11.4 Sarah: We would like to think, right? So, back to my Bishop, great insightful Bishop, where we are... We're getting ready to get married and he pulls us in his office and he says, "You guys, this is gonna be hard for Sarah. It's gonna be really hard for Sarah to go from these traumatic experiences to, Let's do it all in one night." And he says, "I'd like you to explore each other's bodies." And he said, Your only... He gave us limits and he said, "Your only limits are oral and penetrative sex."   0:51:45.5 DB: Your Bishop counselled you this?   [chuckle]   0:51:46.6 Sarah: My Bishop.   0:51:47.3 DB: I want his name and number.   [laughter]   0:51:49.3 Sarah: Alright.   0:51:50.4 DB: This is phenomenal. When you heard him say that, what was your response?   0:51:56.0 Sarah: Well, I was like, jaw dropped. Because my husband's bishop, at that time, he was like, "You can't touch each other at all. Satan's gonna be trying to destroy you as a family, and if you... "   0:52:08.4 DB: Oh, yeah. I hear that all the time.   0:52:09.7 Sarah: Yeah. [chuckle] "If you touch each other at all, you're gonna have sex, the passion is just so alive, no touching yourselves"   0:52:14.9 DB: You no longer have agency.   0:52:16.3 Sarah: Right. Like, we're children again. And then we had my bishop who was like, "Please get to know each other before you have sex." And we talked about it as a couple, and we decided, "Okay, what is appropriate for us? What do we feel like we can handle? What's our plan in case we start to feel overwhelmed? What happens if I have a traumatic response? And what are our boundaries?" And we talked about those things that people don't talk about in their marriage for years. And it just set us up on what I thought was the perfect happy ever after.   0:52:51.2 Sarah: So, we get married in the temple. We have a great sex life for a couple of months and then I can't get there. I can't climax. And I remember, [chuckle] it was Valentine's night, I had bought, on a meager student income, I had bought this red piece of lingerie and I was so excited. And I was anticipating it so much and looking forward to connecting so much, and then I was feeling the feeling, feeling the build-up and then, boom, exhaustion, can't get there. My husband gets up and puts his garments back on and I just remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, I'm so broken. I am so broken." And that was my spiral back down hill, that night. That's when everything changed from it being something that my husband and I participate in together where my pleasure matters as much as his pleasure, and we need to be clear that my bit does. My husband has never once pressured me, he's always been 100% understanding. We both just didn't have the tools. So, this is the spiral of...   0:54:06.0 DB: You not only didn't have the tools, 'cause that's my concern in general, is no one's taught how to have intimate relationships, sex and orgasm. Who teaches that? But you're up against also trauma.   0:54:20.1 Sarah: Yeah.   0:54:21.3 DB: And so you've got a few fronts here that you're battling, and this is happening at this moment. So, where do you go from there?   0:54:29.3 Sarah: So months progress and I'm just becoming increasingly more depressed and I'm feeling increasingly more isolated. I started seeing a different therapist, I had moved, so I had a different therapist. It was a sex therapist. And the sex therapist kept telling me it's this trauma that's in the way of you being able to connect with your husband, and I was sitting there saying, "It's not the trauma. I've worked through so much of the trauma. Of course, I have bad nights where something triggers me and I can identify the trigger and work through it, but it's not the trauma that's preventing me from this." So I tried a different sex therapists, and I tried an OB-GYN. And I tried a different OB-GYN. And the problem was, is I would feel the build-up and I would... We'd be in the moment and we'd be feeling really, really good, and then I would just hit this wall of exhaustion. And it felt like I was being knocked off my feet. And it was time and time and time again, and I just started feeling like, "I'm only here to be like this vessel for other men's pleasure. And it's not... My husband's not making me feel this way, this is how God designed my body to be a vessel for other men's pleasure, not my own, for other men's pleasure."   0:55:45.1 Sarah: And that was the beginning of just months, years of severe depression and anxiety, and it got so bad that I had suicidal ideation. Because my husband and I have always been able to be so transparent from the beginning, I was able to disclose to him, that I was having these ideations and he said, "Okay, you've gotta get help, like this is obviously not working." It terrified him enough that I could see on his face of like just the idea of that was so scary, I don't think I could ever go through with it, which kind of brought me back to reality. But... So, nothing's changing, I'm just super depressed. I'm seeing doctors who are saying, "We're just gonna prescribe you these anti-depressants, it will kill your libido. Here's some anti-anxiety, work on your trauma." So I start EMDR. And so, for those of the listeners, it's a great form of trauma therapy where you process it without really describing it, so you're not re-victimizing yourself, you're processing more of what your body is holding on to. So, I go through it and I'm like, That's not the trauma. It's not... There's something that's stopping me, physio... My physical body is stopping me.   0:57:01.0 Sarah: There's something in the way. I can feel it. So again, I'm just hopeless. No one's believing me. Every single person is telling me it's your trauma, which was at this point, more traumatic than my trauma.   0:57:13.5 DB: Interesting, yes. I was actually gonna point that out and... Well, I won't jump ahead here. I wanna reflect back on that but... So what was it? What did you end up discovering?   0:57:27.2 Sarah: So I... So we move out of state, and I'm talking to this woman in my new ward and something... She was a doula. So for those who aren't aware of what a doula is, they're basically a birthing partner. So they... She professionally goes in and helps women deliver their babies as their advocate, and I had... She had mentioned to me that what got her interested in it was she had had a traumatic response giving birth because she had been molested as a child, and that resurfaced for her during her birth. And I was like, "Holy crap. That might happen to me." And so I disclosed to her my history of sexual assault, and then I disclosed to her my problem of not being able to climax. And she didn't bat an eye. She said, "Oh, go visit a pelvic floor physical therapist." And she gave me a name. So I made this appointment and I go in, and at this point, I have kind of like this PTSD from visiting providers. 'Cause none of them believe me. Everyone is telling me... It ranges from, "It's your trauma," to, "Let go of how you view yourself. Your body image part... " And I'm like, "I've never once said that I don't like the way I look in sex."   [laughter]   0:58:36.5 Sarah: Everyone's pointing out these emotional things or these things that we've put on women that I'm like, "It's none of those. I'm not telling you like... Listen to me, please." So I walk in, and I sit down, and she started crying, this physical therapist, and she said, "You are the hardest client to get in my doors because everyone gives up on you."   0:59:01.7 DB: Mm-hmm. Yes. Gives up on you in the sense of they think it's something else?   0:59:09.4 Sarah: Yes.   0:59:09.6 DB: Yes.   0:59:09.9 Sarah: They think it's something else. And she said, "It is so common." She said the clients who have it the most are religious clients, which I think is ironic.   0:59:17.2 DB: That's well-studied, actually.   0:59:18.1 Sarah: Very religious people and athletes. And I was both. So she... I remember her saying, "You'll have an orgasm within a month." And I was going like, "Yeah, right."   0:59:27.8 DB: So let me pause you there before we get on to the healing, hopefully, is...   [laughter]   0:59:32.4 DB: That's what I was wanting to speak to, is in no way is this a criticism. I am so thankful for the research and the skills that trauma therapists and trauma training in general has brought to clinicians. However, what I'm seeing is an imbalance in assessment. A lot of clinicians are jumping to trauma, which isn't wrong, and trauma is still playing a part of your life.   1:00:04.3 Sarah: Totally.   1:00:07.5 DB: However, there's... Your body is made up of a bunch of more things than just trauma and just the things that you were bringing up. Everything needs to be explored, and I think that's a critical part of assessment. And I'm in a tricky spot as a male therapist who often will engage in thorough assessment. Like yes, fully recognize there's trauma. Is there potentially anything else biologically going on, emotionally going on that's disconnected from that? And that's often perceived as minimizing trauma, and it's a tricky place to be in because... Absolutely, there's trauma there, but I'm seeing a lot of what's happening, what happened to you, where your actual health concern wasn't related to the trauma, at least not the majority of it. And finally, somebody found out. You found the right person, rather, and they guided you. So do you mind sharing what the procedure was? I think I know where you're going with this.   1:01:04.1 Sarah: Yeah. So it was just pelvic floor physical therapy. So it was all internal work. So basically she inserted her fingers into my vagina and was able to release the tension. And what she said that was so profound was she said... And at this point, I have my MSW, and I'm like, "I'm a therapist. I'm gonna be a therapist. This is my passion." So I'm talking to her about all these terms, and she's like, "Yeah, don't you guys like read that book, The Body Keeps the Score, and don't you guys understand that you hold trauma in your body?" And I was like, "Yes. Actually, I do know that." And she's like, "Well, where do you think you hold it?" And I said, "Well, I don't know. Like my whole body?" She said, "In your pelvic floor." Mind blown, right? So what she did is in her assessment, she found that... And she likened it to bicep curls. She said, "Your vaginal walls have to go up and down like you would do a bicep for you to orgasm." And she said, "Yours are so tight that they can't loosen. They can't physically make that sensation happen. They can't have that... They won't.   1:02:15.0 Sarah: So we did some exercises and I had to relearn how to do certain things. I had to essentially learn how to orgasm, and that was the beginning of happiness. That was the beginning of the fairy tale, for me, it was. [chuckle] Learning, becoming one with my body, and when I say one with my body, for anyone who has a period, who has a uterus, who has a pelvic floor, that includes you man, understand what's going on with your pelvic floor. That is where you're holding your stress, where you're holding your trauma. And since then, I have been able to identify when I suck in, and I know I do it. When I am triggered or when I'm stressed, or if I'm uncomfortable or if I'm feeling vulnerable, I can suck in my muscles, and I feel it. It's like this, "Please don't look at me," and I'm sucking in. It's totally this trauma-fear response, and I can now push myself back out and to relax, and I have control of what's going on with me. And that's the first time that's ever happened. I was able to orgasm. We have a great sex life now. We've had... Since had a baby and that didn't break me. I thought that was gonna ruin me again. I wasn't afraid to have a child, and it helped bringing a child in. I used the same things that I learned in therapy, and I survived.   1:03:46.8 DB: What a story. Not a story. What a life.   1:03:51.8 Sarah: Yeah.   [laughter]   1:03:52.7 DB: My goodness, that journey. So was it... What the doctor did, did that get you to successful orgasm? Was there other things that you did to help yourself along?   1:04:03.3 Sarah: Yeah, so basically, what she would do is she would use her fingers on muscles and release them so much like you would lengthen a muscle or much like going to the gym, right? You learn how to turn your muscles on and off when you're lifting weights, and she helped me learn how to do that, then I had to learn how to breathe again. 'Cause I was breathing incorrectly, like who even knows that you can breathe incorrectly. But I was breathing in, sucking in, doing... Any time I worked out, sucking in, holding that pelvic floor in tight. I learned to masturbate. That was a big one, right, learning my body.   1:04:42.2 DB: What is the purpose of that? Just to... Was it to help heal? Or what was the purpose of masturbating?   1:04:47.9 Sarah: The purpose of that was to, A, figure out how my body worked, right? How... What feels good? Now that I know my body can react to pleasure, what feels good? We started over, basically. So... And that came from... And this is the part that blows my mind is how we expect our young people or any people to walk into a marriage not knowing their body. So I learned my body with that. I've helped my husband learn my body, so his confidence grew, my confidence grew, our intimacy was connected. For the first time, it felt like it was a partnered experience.   1:05:23.8 DB: This is important for a lot of Latter-day saints to understand. And I'm not gonna sit here and say that masturbation should be a part of everyone's life. However, when we as... Especially Latter-day saints who are clinicians make a blanket statement, which I've seen recently in social media and some pretty well-respected therapists who are LDS, say that any therapist who encourages masturbation is not in line with their faith, right? It's... Yeah, thanks for the eye roll.   [laughter]   1:06:07.1 DB: It's... The potential damage of that message is destructive to say the least. I've seen so many women who have been abused, who have had similar life experiences, and they carry that on with them because that message was communicated to them, and they feel understanding their body is breaking some eternal covenant.   1:06:40.7 Sarah: Oh. Totally.   1:06:42.8 DB: It's the only thing we see... In the medical industry that seems to be the exception within our faith, is you go to a doctor and get some drugs to help you or you do... And I hate to use that analogy because I don't even think they're the same in a sense of risks or anything like that. But masturbation is a form

Today I'm talking to Viv Guy about growing your business without social media. Viv is a business coach, mentor, strategist, and the host of the podcast Marketing Without Social Media. Viv is passionate about helping service-based business owners create recurring 5k+ months, WITHOUT social media (bye-bye hamster wheel of content!), having created her first successful biz in her 20s without it. The best bit; doing it all in just 20 hours a week! In this episode, you'll learn about growing your business without social media as well as...   Why Viv thinks there's a growing interest in ditching Social Media If not Social Media, then what? Viv's ideas to grow your business without it Her 3 favorite ways of growing without social How to get traffic to our free offers to get people on to our email list Advantages of email vs. Social Media How Viv thinks Social Media will evolve in the next 5 year And so much more Viv's Resources   Viv's Website Viv's Podcast: Marketing Without Social Media Viv's Free Guide: 21 Ways to Get Clients Off Social Media   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] Hey  Viv. So good to speak to you today. I look forward to our, I'm gonna just let in the listeners that were doing a double episode. So we're, we're recording first for my show. And then I'm gonna be recording one for your show. So yay. We get to hang out all morning. So welcome to the humane marketing podcast with, so  Viv: I'm excited to have. Thanks, sir. I'm so, so happy to be here. And one a morning, we've got how exciting is it's awesome. I think, you know, we're gonna come away from this, like bursting at the seams. I think there's so much energy and value that we take  Sarah: exactly. And all these new ideas about social media and marketing and all of that. So,  Viv: yeah, I'm [00:07:00] really excited.  Sarah: Cool. Well, let's dive right in. I, I, I have some big picture questions for you, but then also some nitty gritty, like, you know, how do we do this without social media? Because yeah, there's, there's obviously the big picture. So the that's kind of what I, where I wanna start. I, I feel like. There's maybe some movements starting together with my humane marketing revolution. Maybe there's a movement also away from social media. Yeah. What do you see? What do you hear in the grapes? What's going on?  Viv: Yeah. So I think you become more aware don't you have things are movements when you, you kind of embrace that yourself. Mm-hmm . So for me, obviously, when I, I had the idea of, I want to go off social media entirely, right? You start kind of looking around who else is doing this? Am I crazy? you know, but it was great. Cuz the coach I was working with at the time, Greg Fon, he had, he would pivoted away from social media. So I was like, okay. Greg can do it. And then I started looking around and came across [00:08:00] Leon Dawson, you know, who I made 11 million and doesn't use social media now and there's, and, you know, look around, there are so many people coming off, social media. So I kind of was like, okay, there are people moving away, but the big thing was. Can can like younger businesses, newer businesses do it, you know? Cause I was seeing a lot of more established businesses doing it. Mm-hmm , you know, multi billion dollar businesses doing it, you know, makeup brands, perfect brands and, and Tesla and people like that. So I was like that. Mm. So I do think there is, I do think there's a movement is in answer. The short answer is yes. I do think there is a, a movement away from social media. There's a lot, obviously that sits behind that and that the rationale mm-hmm, , I'm very logical. You know, so for me, I like to see a good return on my investment of my time and energy. And I didn't see that coming through social media also on a kind of more intuitive, emotional level. I just didn't like social media. I've never liked social media. And it just never felt [00:09:00] right. And I fell into that trap with, with, with my second business, which was a personal brand photography of really, you know, listening to the experts out, out there who were, were saying, you know, you must use social media and you must be on it all time and you must be responsive and da, da duh. And, you know, I just felt. I felt like I was in like social media prison. Like I just didn't have a choice, you know? And, and I had to do all of this stuff and it felt horrible. But I did it and I built a very successful business, but there was always a part of me that was like, I don't like this. And is there another way. And then when I moved into. You know, very naturally into the, into the coaching world because I'd built a very successful business people saying, how did you do that? I, and what I was, you know, intuitively, I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. You know, instinctively, I was. I don't like it. It's not really providing me the return on investment cuz energetically, I didn't feel aligned, you know, with it. So [00:10:00] obviously, you know, if you want to talk about sort of energy and what you put out, you're getting return. I just, wasn't seeing the, the return on investment for me in terms of leads. And I found it was so a big sort of energy drain and that's just not what I wanted to. So yes, I was like, there's gotta be another way. And then I also found my clients were coming to me and I seemed to be attracting these clients who were. I don't like social media. I don't wanna use social media. Is there another way? And at that, that point, I had not gone entirely off social media. I was still using Facebook and Instagram, but I was attracting these people who were like, I don't wanna use social media. Can you help me? And I wasn't putting that out there as a message at all, but obviously energetically, you know, and I'm not a woo person. I'm just gonna say this to everyone out there. I'm not, there is a big, you know, and I say that in the kindest possible way, you know, with affect. I'm not, you know, somebody who has studied and, and a lot of expertise and experience, but I have definitely embraced a lot more. You know, woo. In the sense of really tapping into my intuition, you know, and, and my, [00:11:00] my instincts of what feels good. And, and I really do believe, obviously I was putting out this energy that was saying like social media sucks. It's not the right way to build your business. And I was attracting these people before. And then obviously before I kind of made that decision to a really niche and too. How to market without social media. So that was a very long winded answer. yeah. Yes. There's a movement.  Sarah: it's it's all good. It's all good. Then there's so many bits and pieces. And I wanna go back to one that stood out to me where you mentioned, you know, obviously it's easy for the big companies, the, the big corporations, or even the small business owners you mentioned Leon do and Daws. She was on social media before, right? Mm-hmm, , she's built a, an empire on social media. So in a way it's like, oh, well it's easy for them to now say I'm going off social media because if, or, you know, the, the devil's advocate would say, well, they have already built an audience. So it it's, I think it's really relevant that you share.[00:12:00]  We have built businesses before social media and kind of look at these cases and then also share your experience saying, well, I built a business now without social media, right. Because it's, it's everywhere. And so we're like, well, Yeah, but it seems like you have to do it in order to get some kind of audience. It's almost like we have to unlearn everything we learned all the business advice and marketing advice. We, we got over the years,  Viv: right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, and, and I built my first seven figure business without any social media and yes, I'm that old social media did not exist when that business launched. Right. And it was never somewhere I needed to kind of go you know, Yeah, I just didn't do it then. And you look around. Yeah. As you say, then there's a lot of advice that says you have to use social media because, but we look at that and, you know, I had a great conversation when I had Leone Dawson on my show because she's obviously been in business quite long time now. And when you, you know, when social media media first arrived on Facebook, first appeared, you know, you could put [00:13:00] one post out there. And it would get like 80 to 90% kind of reach and engagement on it. Mm-hmm , which was phenomenal. And year on year, it declined, you know? So you're having to put out more and more content to get any kind of engagement or reach. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of very successful entrepreneurs and business owners out there who obviously. Kind of got on that Bandra and that social media marketing kind of, and took that opportunity that was there, which was great to market using social media at a time when it was very effective. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But that's what they're now kind of selling.  Sarah: Yeah. And, and they're not telling you that now they have a team of 10 people who constantly create content and do all the social media management  Viv: for you for that. And I, and I often wonder, you know, if they were to start a business right now, you know, in 20, 22 or, you know, it, what would they do? Because it would not be, I'm not gonna say any, it was easy for them, but it would, it's very different, you know? [00:14:00] Horizon now in, in the marketing world. And I think it's, you know, you can become so far removed, you know? So when you are so successful, if you're still trying to kind of teach people who are early on, you're not kind of on the ground doing those kind of ground level Strategies. So how can you then be kind of teaching? It just feels really misaligned for me sometimes that, you know  Sarah: yeah. It's that cookie cutter approach. Oh, this worked for me. So I'm gonna teach you and make millions of dollars. you know, now that yeah. And it, yeah. There's no guarantee that it's gonna work for all these other people. Viv: Yeah. And I think the big thing for me was always, you know, that it was missing. In all the courses and trainings I did and, you know, everything I invested in that nobody said what feels good to you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that was the one question that was missing until I worked with an amazing coach who was like, what do you want it to feel? Like, what do you want it to look like? And I was like, oh, that's a choice here. Is it permission?  Sarah: Yeah. It's just permission giving. Yeah. And I  Viv: think, but I think for so many. Business owners. I, [00:15:00] I work with who come to me. They, they don't know, there's no awareness of other approaches to marketing because when we start a business, you know, most people start a business. You know, whether you say you're a therapist or. Or you wanna be a business coach or whatever it is, you know, where have you already kind of been hanging out on a personal level when you maybe were in your corporate career? Mm-hmm on social media. So you kind of like, it's familiar, it's comfortable. So I'm gonna go there instinctively and automatically, and I'm not gonna explore those other options. Yeah, because this feels like something that I could do and it's easy. And everybody says, you know, the noise out there face, you have to be there. you have to be there. And this is gonna be the easiest way to grow your business. And it's just not the case now, you know? Yeah. And there is so much, so much kind of data out there to kind of back this up that says this is not the most effective. Way to build your business now and to grow your audience, you know, and, and what do we know? You know, we need, we need leads. We need an audience, you know, in order to get [00:16:00] clients and customers and doing it through social media, especially organically is not effective. And I was speaking to. And a, a Facebook ads manager last week who was very much working with small businesses. And she said, honestly, I'm, I cannot sell what I do anymore, because I don't believe it's the right thing for small businesses. Because since the iOS changes last year, it's even harder now. And you know, you are, if you wanna spend 10 to 20 pounds per day on ads, You're just not gonna get the results, you know, so she was saying it like instinctively for her and intuitively it just didn't feel right to be selling that. And so she's gonna come on the podcast and talk about that to people now that actually even the pay to play, you know, cause I've always said, you know, if you wanna do it, it's pay to play. But actually. It's paid to play. If you've got a lot of money to invest and a lot, you know, a lot of money to invest in it. And also you have many other strategies supporting it. You know, you think about the big businesses out there. They are not just pushing out [00:17:00] paid ads. Now they are looking to other, other means of bringing in leads.  Sarah: Yeah. Wow. Such a good example of a humane marketer and, and often you know, the way you come to humane marketing it is by kind of. Tuning into your integrity and saying, can I still do this? You know, and for some people it might still work. She might still get clients and get paid, right? Yeah. But she can't sleep at night because she's like this, I know this is not working for my clients. They're just paying too much for the results that they're getting. And, and I just saw stat also someone sharing on, on. Because that's kind of my turf, where, where I hang out in with LinkedIn ads, 90%, 97% of people don't click on the page that you want them to click on. So they never click over to your landing page. Wow. So the, this ad guy was saying the, the, the new way of looking at ads is kind of like looking at them as billboards.[00:18:00]  So you engage with the O audience that. Already there in your network, you don't send them somewhere else and then try to sell them something there. Right? Yeah. That doesn't mean we make our content all look like ads, but we, you know, we engage differently. But, but yeah, like you pay tons and tons of money for these ads and they don't convert because nobody actually clicks on them anymore. Viv: Yeah. It's you know, and, and it it's out there. The data, you know, the return on investment. It's it's, it's, it's low. It is low. Yeah. It's low, you know, and again, you've gotta have a lot of money and you want to have an ads manager because there's so many changes with algorithms and everything, you know, you could spend days just doing that. Oh yeah. And you know, what's working this month might not work next month. So, you know, ads are a minefield of the, you know, minefield of their own. If you want to do that, but yeah, organically, I, I think there's just a whole reframing that I say to people, like, if you. For example, Facebook groups, because there is a big thing, you know, the [00:19:00] community aspect that, that, that people love with Facebook groups. But, but what's happening is a lot of people are hanging out on, on Facebook and Instagram and places and trying to attract people into, into those kind of groups and communities. And that's really difficult. So I say to people look outside of social media, how can you bring people in to your world, into your email list first and foremost, cuz that's your valuable asset and. If you want them to come hang out with you, sign, post them from your emails, come hang out with me on Instagram or Facebook group or whatever, but stop trying to build your audience like in, you know, on these social media platforms, build it, you know? Via an email list, as they say, cuz that is, you know, the gold, that's the pot of gold in your business. And then direct them if that's what you want, because then they're gonna see more of you, you know, they're gonna see your emails more than they're gonna see that content. And that's a much better way to kind of bring people in. And you know, you dunno what's gonna happen. You don't own social media. You know, we all know that. Yeah. I missed the blackout last year cuz it didn't affect me. But obviously I [00:20:00] woke up to, you know, lots of emails. We kind of didn't have social media have an email list, blah, blah, blah. You know, you don't own this. Yeah. And we're well aware of that. So I just say kind of flip your whole approach to how you are using social media, if you do want to keep using social media. Yeah. So that you are not kind of, so, so kind of. In that world. I think that's the problem. We need to look outside and expand our, our vision beyond social media. And I, I think at the moment, a lot of people are kind of stuck and, and to that tunnel vision, that this is the only way. Yeah.  Sarah: And, and I just wanna add, I'm kind of allergic to this term community on, you know, Facebook when it's. It's not actually a community. It's more an audience for yeah. The guru to, you know, find clients. Yes. And, and, and it's a misuse, in my opinion of the word community, cuz a community is, you know, interconnected. It's not just connected to the guru who wants to sell to  Viv: use. Yes. So a whole different story. I absolutely [00:21:00] agree. And I've been reading the book you are invited by John Levy. Mm-hmm it's a great book and it talks about how. We need like actual connection with people like human connection, you know, and, and how you, we have, you know, we, we, we know more people in this digital era, you know, when we have connections, but we're not really connected and we're so much more isolated. And I think this comes with this, this, this misconception of community, I'm part of a community, but actually. True communi very lonely. Yes. Very, yeah. Very isolating and lonely. So I, I, I absolutely agree with you on that. There's a whole episode just on, just on that. on that idea. Yeah, absolutely. So  Sarah: people are probably just, you know, listening nodding saying yes, yes, yes. But they will also wanna know, well, okay. If not social media, then what, okay. We heard you say, you know, we need an email list, but how do we get people on this email list? It's kind of. Probably feels like the chicken and the egg, so yeah. So yeah, [00:22:00] take us kind of through some pragmatic things on how to yeah. Get more people on your email list because we still want to grow an audience that we can send these emails  Viv: to. Absolutely. And this is the big thing that I mentioned, obviously that the Facebook and, and social media outage last year, and, you know, I'm gonna get on my soapbox for just a moment to say the thing that really railed me, waking up to those emails the next day was, you know, you need to have an email list. You don't own social media and I'm like, we're not idiots. We all know this, but not one person offered the how, how do you build an email list? So I was like, do they even know the answer to this beyond social media? Cuz these were a lot of obviously like social media experts out there, experts. So. For me, I'm very much about the, the how and the practicality. There is no secret here, you know, and I, I've obviously there's a guide that I've shared with you, given you the link for 21 ways. My favorite 21 ways to market without social media, there are hundreds. [00:23:00]  Sarah: Yeah. And there's a great video on your website as well on the homepage where you take us through some  Viv: of these things. So, yeah, absolutely. And you know, and I, and I've offered like 21 ways for, for kind of people who are more service based business is cuz that's my area. Expertise mm-hmm but you know, project based businesses, there are additional ways as well. Anyway, so your  Sarah: favorite. Three ways three,  Viv: my favorite three ways again, for, for me personally. And I just want you guys who are listening to take this, you know, don't just try and replicate me because I have a, my, you know, there are different marketing archetypes. So what works for me may not work for you. Depends on your business. Depends on who you are. And again, there's a whole, all that kind of. Quiz and things you can do there to figure out who that is what that is. So for me, ways, I best way for me to grow my list. I collaborate in bundles. They're really great for me because I get to connect with other people. I build partnerships. So bundles for anyone out there, what is a bundle you're kind of going, Hey, I dunno what that is. So this is where maybe. 20 businesses come together and they [00:24:00] put something in there. So a free course, a free ebook or something that they would normally charge for. And they all put some offering into, to this, this bundle bag basket, you know, virtual bag. And then what happens is everybody shares this with their own email list. So you add value, you give a lot of value to your own audience saying, Hey, these are other things that could be really useful. And only obviously do bundles that, that, that have kind of collaborations and contributions from people who, who are gonna help add value to your audience. Yeah. And so, you know, you are sharing your offering and getting like your, you know, eyes on, on who you are and what you do. You know, to 20 other people's audiences and it's, so is  Sarah: this like a course or some kind of mini program that you're  Viv: offering could be a course mini program. Ebook could be templates, you know, could be like the 20 emails you wanna send when you're launching something, whatever it might be. [00:25:00] So it's a great way to kind of look at that. So for me, bundle's worked really, really  Sarah: well. And are you usually the one organizing these bundles or once you organize one, then you. Kind of know the people and you get invited. How, how do you get started with  Viv: bundles? Yeah. So you could organize a bundle. I did a, a bundle last year. But you can just contribute to bundles. You don't have to ever run your own if you don't want to. And the great thing is kind of, once you get. And discover one. And how do you find them? Google, Google bundles, asking your networks, look around, check out emails. People are normally talking about them. So kind of find out who's run one. You'll have missed it, probably, you know, in terms of getting in that one, but getting in touch with them, like look at who else was contributing because most people kind of are on the circuit doing the rounds, you know? So if that's a strategy that works you'll find people will generally be kind of contributing. Right in that same network and it opens up a lot of connections for you, you know, in terms of you can then collaborate and, and partner with people. One on [00:26:00] one, you can look at joint ventures. So it opens up many opportunities. If, if you make the effort, because they're quite anonymous in the, the sense that you can just put your thing in and never speak to another person who's in that bundle. So, you know, utilize it either reach out to people, kind of say, Hey, we're both in the same bundle. I really like what you do think we've got some crossover, you know, so take it that step further. Some people will, some, some bundle organizers will run like a zoom kind of session where you can all get to kind of connect and meet and greet, which is really nice to actually. Kind of hear from people and really say like, I agree.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I always recommend that when I'm on a summit, I'm like, let's connect with each other for the summit speakers, you know, how come, how come people forget that part. It's such an important part because yeah. We are also. Of wanting to connect with peers and like-minded people. So, yeah. I agree with you. It's so great to, to have that [00:27:00] for bundles or summits or conferences as well. Yeah.  Viv: Because you know, you get to hear more about the business and what, what it is they do, which, you know, when you kind of just see one offering in a bundle, you don't get the whole picture of that business. So I think it's. Such a great way to, to do that. So if you are gonna run a bundle, I would highly recommend you do a zoom session where you can, you know, it doesn't have to be long, 30, 40 minutes where people can kind of just go round hot seat, introduce themselves. So bundles bundles are like a great, and the reason I like them is you get a really. Great return on your investment. You can create one asset. So one mini course, one, you know ebook, whatever it is, and you can use it in many different bundles. So you do that piece of work once and you get to repurpose it. And that's a really great thing, you know, because we wanna, we don't wanna add and create lots of extra work for ourselves. Yeah. And I would say if you wanna kind of go down that bundle route and that's gonna be a core strategy, have a few different offerings and you can just rotate them for different bundle. Just, just a follow  Sarah: up question, like in terms of the [00:28:00] offering, what have you seen kind of the value? Is this something that's worth 50 bucks or 500 bucks or, or  Viv: more? It entirely depends on the bundle. And I don't think the value is the big pull for people. I don't think people kind of go, oh, this would cost me $500. I'm gonna go for that. It's really. Understanding who it's targeted at the audience mm-hmm and what are their biggest struggles? And this is where I have seen people say, well, I did a bundle and I didn't get any signups out and I  Sarah: didn't create, so it was the wrong offer or the wrong  Viv: audience, or yeah. Or people downloaded it because they were kind of just going through the whole thing, downloading everything, and then they didn't get any leads from it. You know, if, if it's, if it's right and you have pitched it right, you should, you know, People joining your mailing list, you should get people then booking in to have like calls or conversations, or if you wanna do trick wire office, you should be, you know, that next step should happen. And that's the process to kind of really look at. So, yeah. Bundles, I like for me works for me. And [00:29:00] then speaking, I love kind of guessing on people's podcasts and in, in kind of people's masterminds, really adding like value. And as you know, I can talk for a long time on my topic. So yeah, I really like to go in and guess speak and I think that adds a different level of connection as well, to, to bundles. So bundles you've gotta out for me. I believe you've got a longer nurture. Kind of journey for those people that are coming in. Whereas when you go in and guest speak I think that's fast tracked as well. Hugely because obviously, you know, there's trust imparted there's so there's so much that comes with that. So for me, guest speaking, I am really energized by having two-way conversations. And this is interesting cuz I, you know, my archetype is, is a salesperson or a persuader mm-hmm , it's a, is a slightly nicer way of putting, putting it. I think. Kind of salesperson brings with it, not always the best, the best vibes. So, yeah. For me, It would, you know, for a persuader architect, people would always say, well, video's great for you, but I hated [00:30:00] video. I hated doing things like on my own because there was, wasn't the two way like exchange and the, that energy. So I found it really difficult. Whereas if I'm doing things like that, you know, now we're having a conversation video. I just, it works so differently for me. It's a great way to do that. So yeah, I like that kind of interaction. I like to speak to people. And that's, I think my social media wasn't great for me. It just didn't feel like I was speaking to. Yeah, what's the third one. Oh, sorry. That was number two. Yeah.  Sarah: Forgot. I'm like waiting baby. wait,  Viv: waiting, waiting, waiting. And the third one for growing audiences for me is is, is podcast podcasting. You know, so for me, I have my own podcast and I love that and kind of putting that out there. And it's an interesting one because it works in two ways. And as I say, it works for me, for my archetype. It works in terms of it can bring in new audiences, but it's also fantastic for adding value and nurturing my existing audiences. So it works. It's like a double whammy. So you think, if you think about like, what is your intention when [00:31:00] you're using social media and you're trying to kind of give people value and stuff, but it allows an opportunity to go so much deeper than kind of like the odd post. That's something that that's really effective. And the amount of people I get on calls with who wanna work with me and they say, oh, I've been listening to your podcast. You know? And I love it when people message, they go and I'm in California and I listen to your podcast and you know, I love it. And, and this is great, cuz you kind of seen that, that maybe people aren't, haven't been ready to work with you, but they've been getting this value from you and kind of understanding how that works in your, your marketing process is really effective. So you can use it as a, a, a kind of lead generator and then as a nurture. Sort of a converter as well.  Sarah: Yeah. It, it totally, it it's like in humane marketing, we, we're all about bringing more of you to your marketing and, and that's what you do in your podcast. You know, people really get to know you, your values, your worldview what you stand for. Because you're not just in promotion mode all the time. I feel like on social media, a lot of people are kind of going [00:32:00] into promotion mode, right? Yeah. Where on social media? Sorry on podcast. You, you are not, we're not in promotion mode. We're, we're not promoting anything. We're just having a, a deep conversation. And so that's when I feel like it's more real. Yeah. I mean, there's also podcasts where I feel like, wow, okay. That's not real. Like, they're still like, kind of like, I wanna just kind of scratch, you know, the surface and go show me your real human being. Yeah. Usually, yeah. You can tell, okay. This feels like, oh, I'm really speaking to live. And that's how she is in real life as well, you know?  Viv: Yeah. And I think this is the beauty as well. When you come away from social media, you know, if you think about how you utilize social media, now it's so much is. Quantity kind of content creation approach. You just need to push out content in the hope that it's gonna get seen multiple times a day to have any chance of being seen by other people that are in, in your world. Whereas I [00:33:00] think when we come away from social media, We start serving with content that goes so much deeper, whether that's podcasts, blogs, maybe YouTube power, two videos, you know, whatever that is, you get the opportunity to go so much deeper. And I think that's where the true value lies. You know, and you can give everything away, you know, and I don't hold back because at the end of the day, people come speak, cuz they're like, I still need help. Like implementing this. I need accountability. I need, you know, I just need support. I need someone to really kind of help guide.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. I don't think I think it's actually there it's the opposite effect. If you share more. People are like, oh wow. Now I can really see what, what it would be like to work with her instead of oh, you know, just gimme your top three tips and, and, and then don't go into details that that's yeah, just kind of  Viv: superficial. Yeah. But the big thing is, you know, just to kind of, sort of bring together, you know, they, they were my sort of top three ways. But the fastest way to grow your audience [00:34:00] off social media. Is to, to leverage, to borrow audiences. You know, there are three ways that you can grow an audience. You can buy an audience which we've touched on today. You can build an audience. So building like a, a Facebook group, a community. And then also, you know, blog in what we kind of building an audience that way. Or you can borrow an audience, so borrowing other people's audiences, you know, and I think sometimes people think, oh, that's not great, but you know, borrowing audiences is a great way because actually you are giving value. You're giving value that, that. That audience, you know, maybe are not getting from the person who's kind of leading that community known as a hub, you know, so actually bringing that outside expertise that can really serve deeper and that, you know, that is that that's giving you are giving. So you're not kind of taking away saying, well, I'm borrowing and I'm getting people signing up to my list and taking away you are not, you are adding value and, and that's brilliant if people can resonate with what you, you offer and you. Your unique way of [00:35:00] delivery, then that's a fantastic thing, you know? So, so borrowing, you know, audiences and, and maybe borrowings, not the best term, because I think it brings maybe again, like negative kind of connotations for people. But, but that is fundamentally like the best way, the fastest way to grow your audience. Sarah: To, to us what we use. One of the, the piece of the humane marketing mandala is partnership. And to me, it's partnering, you know, it  Viv: is partnering, borrowing is partner  Sarah: partnering with other entrepreneurs and realizing that your clients gain something. I gain something because I'm exposing my clients to an expertise that I don't have. Yeah. And so really it really is partnering and, and I think we need to find our way back to that. We, you know, it's part of the, this isolation that we kind of learned over the last 20 years, it's like everybody on their own. No. Why, why, you know, we're aligned, our values are aligned. Why not help each other grow our  Viv: businesses? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, if you think [00:36:00] back to, to how. We survived back, you know, when we were like Neanderthals and, you know, paleolithic man and everything, you know, and we were at risk of being eaten by saber tooth tiger, you know, that community. Right. You know, and that partnering, you know, was an integral part of our survival. And I think that's why we struggle. So much emotionally and mentally with this isolation now, because we need, we, you know, we need that as human beings. And I think this whole thing with partnerships is just great because you get to connect with people, you know, you get to hop on a zoom and maybe you're not in the same room physically with somebody, but, you know, having that face to face connection and having that one-on-one interaction is so much more powerful, you know, and, and opens up so many more opportunities because we are all connected. Know that one person is. To so many other people and has their own networks and communities that potentially, you know, they can put you in touch with. So it's, it's, it's just a big kind of. Yeah, yeah.  Sarah: [00:37:00] Right way. I started not offering a replay for my workshops or, you know, webinars, but to me they're really workshops because they're participated in. Yes. And you know, I do, every time I send it out, I do get one or two nasty emails for, for not offering a replay again, it's because we. Gotten so trained to be spoon fed, spooned more and more content and more and more information that people just sign up to 20 webinars and just get the content and, and then feel even more anxious and overloaded. So I'm like we need to move away from that. And. Like you said, have real human connections, get onto a zoom call where there's other people you don't know and be in community with these people. So I, I build in a break where we say, let's be human with each other and let's pause and let's see each other. You know, fellow humans going through this experience of being an entrepreneur that that's not easy. Yeah. But it's an [00:38:00] unlearning. It's a lot of unlearning. Yeah,  Viv: we're such, I mean, like you say, we, you know, we're a society where everything's on demand, you know, we get, yeah. We get stimulation. We get you know, social what's the word I'm looking for? Sorry. Validation social. We get social validation, you know, for instant gratification from checking social media, you know, Amazon prime. We can have things instantly, you know, on demand TV. Everything's there, you know, we're not used to having to wait as well. Is, is another big, big aspect aspect of that, you know? And yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy times. It's, you know, we are overstimulated. I think someone said to me that. In the course of, is it a day or an hour? Now we have more stimulation than caveman would've had within their entire life. Wow. And that's scary. And I think Neil Patel if you dunno who Neil Patel is like big or like he, he, he created Uber suggests, which is great, kind of online SEO search tool and things. And. He put a, I think it was, I think it was Neotel [00:39:00] that talked about the attention span of a goldfish, I think is nine seconds. And I think in 2016 or 17, like the human, like attention span was something like 13 seconds. And now it's shorter in 2022, then that of a goldfish. That is scary. Yeah. And that has come from this like constant, like like I think this, this on demand society and having this constant stimulation. Yeah.  Sarah: So where do we go from here? Like, you know, where do you see, how do you see social media evolving over the next. Let's just say five years. I don't think we can even plan 10 years ahead anymore. So let's just see two to five years. How do you see it evolving since there is this movement away from it? I guess? Oh, well  Viv: I think there will still be so many people who continue to use it because they. Believe it's the only way, especially people early on in their journey. So I think they will be drawn to it again, as for the reasons I [00:40:00] cited, you know, I use it socially. It's addictive, you know, first and foremost, we have to remember. People are not gonna come away because it's, it is an addiction. Mm-hmm . And so it's still gonna, it's still gonna be massively prominent. I don't think social media is ever going to go away and I don't necessarily think, you know, it, it needs to, for lots of people, it's a great way, you know, to stay connected with, with friends and family, maybe. But from a business perspective, I think you are gonna see a lot more people. After sort of six to 12 months in business, kind of saying this isn't working this is not giving me, you know, the clients I'm not, not getting the leads and clients and I need to, I need another way. Yeah. And I think we'll start seeing more people moving away from social media as that core kind of approach and strategy. Mm.  Sarah: Yeah. And, and like you said, it it's a good tool, I guess, to stay in touch with family and friends. And so for that we'll keep using [00:41:00] it. But yeah, I agree with you. There's probably gonna be, and it's a good thing. It's like the, it's almost like you have to go through it, you know, to see, oh, this is not working for me. Yeah, if we all knew what was working right from the start Life would be too easy. so it's like I have to go through some motions and, and see, okay, this is not working for me. Yeah. Also to learn about yourself, as we said, it's a lot, the entrepreneurial journey is a lot about learning out. Learning to find out what works for you. And so maybe we just need to first learn, okay, this is not  Viv: working for me. Yeah. What feels good when, you know, and I think again, thinking about the people that come to me, they kind of say, I just, I don't like it. It doesn't feel good. And then, and I don't do it, you know? So this is the other thing I'm not consistent. So I just, it just, it's not working.  Sarah: Why give. All together then feel shame about not doing it, right? Yeah. That's another piece. The  Viv: shame. Yeah. So the shame is massive. Yeah. [00:42:00] That people feel and like this guilt and why, and, and you know, why am I not doing it? And I've learned all the techniques and strategies, but you know, this, this shame. Yeah. Massive, massive.  Sarah: This is so good. Thank you so much. Viv. I, I wanna come full circle, but. Share again, first of all, where people can find your report with the 21 ways where  Viv: they can connect with you. It's very easy. It's www.vivguide.com/ 21. That's the number two, one ways. W a Y S that's it. So yeah, Viv guide.com/ 21 ways. And you can get your, your free guide there. You can hear more from me on my podcast marketing without social media and, and, you know, I, I I've, this I've shared some real deep dives recently into kind of bundles. If that's something that's of interest we've got summits coming up in. Couple of weeks. So, you know, all the different kind of approaches that I talk about within that guide, we do a lot kind of deep dives about how effective they are, you know, [00:43:00] the, the pros and cons. So you can kind of explore and get an insight into maybe what feels right for you before you kind of tackle things and, and invest in kind of learning how to do things. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing those resources. And it's, it's, it's almost funny. Like, you know, when I usually ask, where can people find you it's like this long list of, you know, on Instagram, I'm this on Twitter? I'm this? You're like, no, there's my website. And that's where we connect.  Viv: Yeah. Connect with me on email, say hi. And, you know, I always say, if you wanna just email me, you know, just drop me an email. Hello, Viv guy.com. And I love that, you know, Truly do reply personally, to every email that comes through to my inbox. In the first instance from everybody, because I like saying hi, you know, we're, we're people we wanna connect. And I like to hear what you do. So tell me, share with me your story.  Sarah: Nice. Thank you so much. I have one last question. Sure. What are you grateful for today or this week?  Viv: Oh, I've done [00:44:00] my gratitude diary this morning. I was really grateful that my children both slept all night last night in their own beds because they have not been sleeping well over the last couple of weeks, I've saying to Sarah they've been ill. So I was really grateful to. Good sleep last night to help help me kind of prepare for today. And that seems really selfish, but it's real. Oh,  Sarah: about it. It's so important. Like if we're not taken care of, then we can't take care of others, first of all, and who's gonna do our  Viv: business. Exactly. And I had, you know, my, my eldest is not quite six yet. She's still five. We've had nearly six years of no sleep. So you know, they were never great sleepers. My, well, my eldest has never been a great sleeper, so she she's, she is a lot better now. So I'm always grateful when they sleep all night.  Sarah: yeah, hang in there.  Viv: it's fine. It's you know, and I like that they come and they feel comfortable coming to get me and say, I just need a, you know, my youngest style say why you out open? She goes, I just need a mama. At three o'clock in the morning. I'm like, I can't send you [00:45:00] away. Can I, you know, have if you need so, yeah, that's my gratitude.  Sarah: Thank you so much for being on the humane marketing  Viv: show. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you everybody.[00:46:00] 

Augmented reveals the stories behind the new era of industrial operations, where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. In episode 3 of the podcast, the topic is: Re-imagining workforce training. Our guest is Sarah Boisvert, Founder and CEO Fab Lab Hub, LLC and the non-profit New Collar Network.In this conversation, we talk about re-imagining workforce training, industry 4.0., what do you mean by “New Collar” jobs? We discuss the mushrooming of Fab Labs. What skills are needed? How can they be taught? How can the credentials be recognized? .What has the impact been? Where do we go from here.After listening to this episode, check out Sarah Boisvert's online profile as well as the New Collar Network: Sarah Boisvert https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-boisvert-3a965031/ The New Collar Network (@NewCollarNetwrk): http://newcollarnetwork.com/Fab Lab Hub (@FabLabHub): http://fablabhub.org/Augmented is a podcast for leaders in the manufacturing industry hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim, presented by Tulip.co, the manufacturing app platform, and associated with MFG.works, the open learning community launched at the World Economic Forum. Our intro and outro music is The Arrival by Evgeny Bardyuzha (@evgenybardyuzha), licensed by @Art_list_io. Thanks for listening. If you liked the show, subscribe at Augmentedpodcast.co or in your preferred podcast player, and rate us with five stars on Apple Podcasts. To nominate guests, to suggest exciting episode topics or give feedback, follow us on LinkedIn, looking out for live episodes, message us on Twitter @augmentedpod or our website's contact form. If you liked this episode, you might also like episode 3: How to Train Augmented Workers. Augmented--the industry 4.0 podcast. Transcript: TROND: Augmented reveals the stories behind the new era of industrial operations, where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. Technology is changing rapidly. What's next in the digital factory? Who's leading the change, and what are the key skills to learn? How to stay up to date on manufacturing and industry 4.0. Augmented is a podcast for leaders in the manufacturing industry, hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim, presented by Tulip.co, the manufacturing app platform, and associated with MFG.works, that is M-F-G.works, the open learning community launched at the World Economic Forum. Each episode dives deep into a contemporary topic of concern across the industry and airs at 9:00 a.m. U.S. Eastern, every Wednesday. Augmented — the industry 4.0 podcast. In episode 3 of the podcast, the topic is Reimagining Workforce Training. Our guest is Sarah Boisvert, Founder and CEO of Fab Lab Hub and the non-profit New Collar Network. In this conversation, we talk about reimagining workforce training, industry 4.0, and what do you mean by new collar jobs? Fab Labs, what skills are needed? How can they be taught? How can the credentials be recognized? What has the impact been, and where do we go from here? Sarah, how are you doing today? SARAH: I'm doing well. How are you? TROND: I'm doing fine. I'm excited to talk about reimagining workforce training, which seems to be an issue on your mind, Sarah. You are a founder yourself. You have been actively involved in advanced manufacturing. I understand part of your story is that your company manufactured and sold the Lasik eye surgery back in 1999. So you've been involved in manufacturing for a while. We're here to talk about something very exciting. You say new-collar jobs is the big focus. I know you didn't invent the term. Can you give me a sense of what new-collar jobs refers to, first of all? SARAH: Sure. It is a term that was coined by Ginni Rometty, who was then the CEO of IBM. She's now the executive chair. And it refers to blue-collar jobs that have now become digital. And so many of our jobs...if you just think about your UPS man who now everything's not on paper, it's all in a handheld tool that he takes around on his deliveries. And all jobs are becoming digital. And so I thought that Ginny's term encapsulated exactly what's happening, and the technologies that we used to use just in manufacturing are now ubiquitous across industries. TROND: You have also been instrumental in the MIT spinout project called Fab Labs. Just give us a quick sense, Sarah; what are Fab Labs? Not everybody is aware of this. SARAH: Fab Labs are workshops and studios that incorporate many different kinds of digital fabrication. So we are taking the ones and zeros, the bits of CAD designs, and turning them into things that you can hold in your hand. And it covers topics like 3D printing, and laser cutting, and CNC machining. But Neil Gershenfeld, who founded the international Fab Lab Network, likes to say the power of digital fabrication is social, not technical. TROND: You know, this brings me to my next question, what skills are needed? So when we talk about new-collar jobs and the skills and the workforce training, what exact skills is it that we need to now be more aware of? So you talked about some of them. I guess digital fabrication, broadly, is another. Can you go a little bit more into what kind of skills you have been involved in training people for? SARAH: Well, when I first started this project, I had always been interested in workforce training, obviously, because I had a manufacturing company, and I needed to hire people. And we had worked with the community college near our factory to develop a two-year curriculum for digital manufacturing. But I had in mind exactly what I needed for my own company and the kinds of skills that I was looking for. And so a lot of Fab Labs, because we have about 2,000 Fab Labs around the world, heard about this program and started asking me, "Could you make a curriculum for us?" And there were so many of them that I thought I needed to come up with something that is going to fit most of the Fab Labs. And so I interviewed 200 manufacturers in all kinds of industries and from startups to Fortune 10 and so companies like GE, and Boeing, and Apple, and Ford, as well as companies in the medical device space. What they all told me they wanted was...the number one skill they were looking for was problem-solving. And that's even more important today because we're getting all these new technologies, and you haven't got some guy in the back of the machine shop who has done this before. And we're getting machines that are being built that have never been built before. And it's a whole new space. And the second thing they were looking for was hands-on skills. And I was particularly looking at operators and technicians. They were also looking for technical skills like CAD design, AI. Predictive analytics was probably the number one skill that the international manufacturers' CEOs were looking for. And I got done, and I thought, well, this is all the stuff we do in Fab Labs. This is exactly what we do. We teach people how to solve problems. And so many of our labs, particularly in places like Asia or Africa where there was tremendous need and not enough resources, necessity is the mother of invention. And so many of our Fab Labs invent amazing things to help their communities. And I thought, well, we don't need a two-year curriculum because the need for the employers was so extreme. I thought we need something more like what we do in Fab Labs. TROND: And how can these skills be taught? What are the methodologies that you're using to teach these skills that aren't necessarily, you know, you don't need to go to university, as you pointed out, for them? But they have to be taught somehow. What are the methods you're using? SARAH: Well, I did a lot of research trying to nail that down when I got done figuring out what it was people needed in the factories. And it seemed like digital badges were the fastest, easiest, most affordable way to certify the ability of a badge earner to work with a particular skill set. And they were developed by IBM and Mozilla probably decades ago now and are used by many organizations to verify skills. And it's a credential that is portable and that you can put on your digital resume and verify. There is an underlying standard that you have to adhere to; an international standards body monitors it. And there's a certain level of certainty that the person who says they have the skill actually has it. TROND: That's a good point because, in this modern day and age, a lot of people can say that they have gone through some sort of training, and it's hard to verify. So these things are also called micro certifications. How recent is this idea to certify a skill in that digital way? SARAH: I think that these particular badges have been around for decades, and people like Cisco, and IBM, and Autodesk have been using them for quite a long time, as well as many colleges, including Michigan State, is one that comes to mind that has a big program. And they can be stacked into a credential or into a higher-level course. So we stack our badges, for example, into a master badge. And that combines a number of skills into something that allows someone to have a job description kind of certification. So, for example, our badges will combine into a master badge for an operator. And so it's not just someone who knows CAD. They know CAD. They know how to run a machine. They know how to troubleshoot a machine. TROND: So we touched a little bit on how these things can be taught. But is this a very practical type of teaching that you are engaged in? I mean, Fab Labs, so they are physically present, or was that kind of in the old, pre-COVID era? SARAH: Well, yes, we were typically physically present with COVID. This past summer, I spent a lot of time piloting more online programs. And so, for our design classes, we can still have people online. And our interns 3D-print their designs, and then they can look at them via photography or video, if it's a functional design, and see how the design needs to be iterated to the next step. Because, as you know, it never comes out right the first time; it takes a number of iterations before it works. And we just recently, this week, actually completed an agreement with MatterHackers, who are a distributor of tabletop 3D printers, to bundle their 3D printers with our badges. And so someone can then have a printer at home. And so, if you have a family and you're trying to educate a number of children, it's actually a pretty economical proposition. And they offer two printers that are under $1,000 for people who are, for example, wanting to upskill and change careers. They also offer the Ultimaker 3D printer that we use pretty heavily in our lab. And it's a higher level with added expense. But if you're looking at a career change, it's certainly cheaper than going back to college [laughs] instead. TROND: So I'm curious about the impact. I know that you started out this endeavor interviewing some 200 U.S. manufacturers to see that there was...I think you told me there was like a paradigm shift needed really to bring back well-paying, engaging manufacturing careers back to middle-class Americans. And that's again, I guess, pointing to this new-collar workforce. What has the impact been? I mean, I'm sitting here, and I see you have the book, too, but you generously gave me this. So I've been browsing some of the impacts and some of the description of what you have been achieving over the past few years. What has the impact been? How many people have you been able to train? And what happened to the people who were trained? SARAH: We've only been doing it a couple of years. And in our pilot, we probably have trained 2,3,400 people, something on that. And it's been a mix of people who come to us. Because we teach project-based learning, we can have classes that have varying levels of experience. So we have people who are PhDs from the Los Alamos National Lab who drive the 45 minutes over to us, and they're typically upskilling. They're typically engineers who went to school before 3D printing was in the curriculum. And they are adding that to their existing work. But we get such a wide range of people from artists. We're an artist colony here. And we get jewelers, and sculptors, and a wide range of people who have never done anything technical but are looking to automate their processes. And so my necklace is the Taos Pueblo. And it was designed by a woman...and her story is in the book. So I should add that the book you're referring to has augmented reality links to the stories of people. And she just was determined. She, I think, has never graduated from high school and is an immigrant to the United States. And she just was determined to learn this. And she worked with us, and now she designs in CAD, and we 3D-print the molds. And her husband has a casting company, and then he has it cast in sterling. TROND: I find that fascinating, Sarah because you said...so it goes from people who haven't completed high school to kind of not so recent PhDs. That is a fascinating range. And it brings, I guess, this idea of the difficulty level of contemporary technologies isn't necessarily what it was years ago. It's not like these technologies take years to learn, necessarily at the level where you can actually apply them in your hobbies or in the workplace. Why is that, do you think? Have we gotten better at developing technologies? Or have companies gotten better to tweak them, or have we gotten faster at learning them? Or is the discrepancy...like, this could be surprising for a lot of people that it's not that hard to take a course and apply it right afterwards. SARAH: Learning anything comes down to are you interested? It comes down to your level of motivation and determination. A couple of things, I think the programs, the technical programs, and the machines have become much easier. When I started in the laser business, every time that I wanted to make a hole, I would have to redesign the optical train. And so I'd have to do all the math, so I'd have to do all the advanced math. I would have to put it together on my bench, and hopefully, it worked, and tweak it until I got the size hole I needed in the material I needed. Today, there's autofocus. It's just like your camera. You press a button; you dial in the size hole you want, and away you go. And it's interesting because many of the newer employees at our company Potomac Photonics really don't have the technical understanding that I developed because they just press the button. But it moves much faster, and we have more throughput; we have a greater consistency. So the machines have definitely improved tremendously in recent years. But I also think that people are more used to dealing with technology. It's very rare to run into somebody who doesn't have email or somebody who isn't surfing the web to find information. And for the young people, they're digital natives. So they don't even know what it's like not to have a digital option. I think that a number of things have come together to make that feasible. TROND: Sarah, let me ask you then this hard question. I mean, it's a big promise to say that you can save the middle class essentially. Is it that easy? Is it just taking one or two courses with this kind of Fab Lab-type approach, and you're all set? Can you literally take someone who feels...or maybe are laid off or feels at least not skilled really for the jobs they had, the jobs they want, and you can really turn them into highly employable in a matter of one course? Has that really happened? SARAH: In one course or one digital badge, it is possible to get some jobs, but it probably takes a combination of courses in order to have the right skill set because it's typically not one skill you need. It's typically a combination of skills. So to run the 3D printers, for example, you need CAD design. You need to understand design for 3D printing. And then you have to understand how to run the machines and fix them when they break. So it's probably still a more focused and condensed process. So you could do our master badge, which comprises five or six badges, and get a job in six months for about $2,000. With one class, you could get a job part-time and continue the other badges and be paying for school while you're working in a field that is paying a substantial increase over working at McDonald's. TROND: So give me a sense. So this is happening, in your case, in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Where do we go from here? Is this going on anywhere else? What are the numbers? How many people are being trained this way? How many people could be trained this way? How easy is the approach you're taking to integrate and scale up? And is it happening anywhere else? SARAH: Our non-profit, which is the organization that issues the badges, has, right now, I think, 12 or 13 members, and they were part of our pilot, and they are all over the country. So in my team, Lemelson, the Fab Lab in El Paso, the Fab Lab in Tulsa, MakerspaceCT in Hartford, Connecticut. And so we have a group that just started this year was when I started the scaling after, I was really pretty confident that it was going to work. If it worked in Santa Fe, which is a small town and in a very rural, very poor state, I really thought if I could make it work here, we could make it work anywhere because there are a lot of challenges in our state. So we started scaling this year, and each of our pilot sites is probably putting through their first cohort of 4, 5, or 6 badges, and they each have about 10 in that first cohort. We have a lot of requests for people to join our group and start issuing the badges. I've really come to see the success of our online program. And so, our online program is instructor-led at this point. And I'm working to create a self-directed program that people could do online with a tabletop printer at home. But we will still continue to scale the New Collar Network that actually disseminates the badges. And I really see enormous interest. As you know, college enrollment has been declining for the last ten years. There has been an 11% decline in college enrollment. And people are looking for alternatives. And I think that I've had requests from school systems. I had a request from a school system back East that has 45,000 students that they want to get badges. We have had a request from a school system in the Midwest where they get a lot of teachers who are getting 3D printers, and they don't know what to do with them. And they'd like for us to train the teachers. So I really see a huge opportunity. And these tools that we're using are not just being used in manufacturing. One of the people that we worked with on the HR side in research was Walmart. And their big worry is now they're putting in these janitorial robots. And their big dilemma is who's going to program them, and who is going to fix the robots when they're not working? And it's everywhere. It's not just am I going to get a job at that manufacturing company? It's also your local retail store. TROND: Fantastic. This is very inspiring. I thank you so much for sharing this with us. And I hope that others are listening to this and either join a course like that or get engaged in the Fab Lab type Network and start training others. So thanks again for sharing this. SARAH: Oh, it's a pleasure. It's a real mission, I think. [laughs] TROND: Sounds like it. Have a wonderful rest of your day. SARAH: Thank you. TROND: You have just listened to Episode 3 of the Augmented Podcast with host Trond Arne Undheim. The topic was Reimagining Workforce Training. Our guest was Sarah Boisvert, Founder, and CEO of Fab Lab Hub and the non-profit New Collar Network. In this conversation, we talked about reimagining workforce training, industry 4.0, and what you mean by new-collar jobs and Fab Labs; what skills are needed? How can they be taught, and how can the credentials be recognized? What has the impact been, and where do we go from here? My takeaway is that reimagining workforce training is more needed than ever before. The good news is that training new generations of workers might be simpler than it seems. Practical skills in robotics, 3D scanning, digital fabrication, even AR and VR can be taught through experiential learning in weeks and months, not in years. Micro certifications can be given out electronically, and the impact on workers' lives can be profound. Thanks for listening. If you liked the show, subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co or in your preferred podcast player, and rate us with five stars. Augmented — the industry 4.0 podcast. Special Guest: Sarah Boisvert.

Today's conversation about membership programs for humane businesses fits under the P of Product of the Humane Marketing Mandala. In this week's episode, I talk to Amy Bonsall about the P of People, precisely people flourishing at work. Amy founded Nau and developed its core offerings by drawing on her extensive experience in designing for mental wellbeing and for communities, as well as her experience advising teams and leaders across 100s of companies in industries from tech to financial services to healthcare to agriculture to retail. Previously, Amy was an executive at IDEO, where she spent a decade leading the creation of new businesses for companies across Europe, Australia, Asia, and the US, living much of that time outside the US. And as the executive leading new ventures at Old Navy, she co-led the creation of a billion-dollar new business, focused on body equity. In this episode, we talk mainly about people in Corporate jobs and I know that is possibly not your situation as my audience is made of more entrepreneurs. But it's maybe the situation of your clients, friends, and family. I think it's such a timely topic to discuss because we're at the beginning of a huge work transformation after the two years we went through. The great resignation is a testimony to that. In this episode, you'll learn about flourishing at work as well as... Why people are NOT flourishing at work The main reasons for their disengagement from work The mental consequences of this situation The opportunity and where we can go from here Amy's idea of a flourishing workplace And much more… Amy's Resources   Amy's Website Special offer: 1:1 sessions with Amy for Humane Marketers "When starting a new job means… crossing your living room" article by Amy Connect with Amy on: Twitter LinkedIn Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Amy. So good to talk to you today. I can't wait to dive into this topic. We've been talking already beforehand, so really excited.  Amy: Likewise and it's so, so fun to be on your podcast. Thanks for having me, Sarah.  Sarah: Thank you. Yeah. So we want to talk about the P for people of my humane marketing Mandalah and in our conversations, it's really about people flourishing at work that is kind of your specialty. Right? And I think before we get started, maybe you can tell us a little bit how that became your specialty. How did you get into this field?  Amy: Yeah. Well, just to start with the P part of it, I spent a decade as a human centered designer at the design company called IDEO. And there, we just really learned how to understand people and what their needs are. And one of the things that we always believed and practiced was. You help people by recognizing where they are and then taking them one step [00:01:00] further, not by starting with what, you know, they might hope, or you might hope is their ideal aspiration. And so that's really the Genesis of my corporate training and my professional training. And I'm just applying that at work. One of the things I had the chance to do. Consulting career was work all over the world and with companies all over the world. And I saw the same challenges all over the world, which is that we are not flourishing at work. It is hard to flourish at work and there are cultural challenges that make that hard. And I say culture kind of quite broadly. It's not American culture. It's not, you know, Silicon valley corporate culture. It's the kind of universal workplace culture that we've developed over. Right. So that's really the Genesis of how I got this.  Sarah: Yeah, so it's so good when you said, you know kind of take people from where they are. I think it makes me think of my work with selling and how often we want them to sell kind of [00:02:00] this future version of themselves instead of acknowledging where they are first. So it, this idea, this concept applies to. I guess so many different things right. In, in, in design and it applies to sales and marketing probably as well. So, so interesting. And the other thing you said is this idea of, of culture. And, and, and yeah, I'm, we're going to go into that idea a little bit more the work culture that we've created over. What is it the last, what would you say 20, 50 years? How  Amy: long? Probably 50, 75 years. We've created this culture of dry, which is great in so many ways. But it, it creates this sense that if we're not exhausted, we're not succeeding and that's kind of paradigm that we need to break in order to flourish. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. It's almost like We created, you know, the, the, the, the last kind of breakthrough was the industrial revolution. And so that's [00:03:00] kind of, we were very proud to create this really deep work ethics and got to work. And, and, and even to schools, if we think. You know, we're going to be talking about work spaces, but if you think about the schools, I often have this conversation with fellow parents. It's like the schools have never changed since the industrial revolution. And we're still teaching the kids as if they were like little soldiers who have to eventually go to, to work. And it's just like, ah, it's so frustrating at times. Do you feel frustrated in your work sometimes as well because you. I wish you could go faster.  Amy: Oh, all my every day I wish I could go faster. And I think, you know, we're going to talk about some practical things that you can do in your workplace or any of your listeners can do. But I often crave, like, I think we need a cultural revolution here or revolution is the right word. We really need to create a new [00:04:00] paradigm in the workplace. And in fact, one of what's so interesting. You're right. We started with this. Industrial revolution sort of belief in increased productivity what's been proven. More recently is that, you know, when we are balanced, when we're balanced, when we are flourishing, when we are not giving everything to work, that's when it actually goes better. Productivity increases, efficiency, increases client satisfaction, customer satisfaction increases. And, but it's counterintuitive for us. Because I think of what our culture is. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah, yeah. So, so much. So, I mean, even I was sharing with on LinkedIn about, you know, the recent Morocco trip and I shared about feeling even on vacation, this urge of. Going to the next thing. Right. We had this eight day trips through Morocco and I was like, oh, it felt like, oh, I have to go to the next city and, you know, see more things. And then we just actually [00:05:00] decided, okay, let's arrest for two days and coincidence or serendipity wanted it. The place we were at was called and in Arabic or verbiage language, that actually means rest place. Well, if that's not a sign to, you know, just stress, but yeah. Even on vacation, we're like, oh, chasing after the next thing. And, and that reminds me of something you said during our pre-call is this kind of this visual of the hamster wheel of many of your clients feel like they're, they're spinning in this hamster wheel and it's almost kind of like a surreal world that they're spinning in. So. Yeah, when that comes up, how do you help them with, I guess, change of perspective and, and yeah. Some tools. How do you work with clients who give you  Amy: that answer? Yeah, you know, I mean, one of the things I was reflecting on our last conversation too, and that image, one of the things that's been [00:06:00] so powerful for me over the past couple of years as I've worked in this, you know, a full-time in this space is this. And that so many of us feel like we're alone. We're all individually. Suffering from something that others seem not to be. And one of the things that I do in my work when I work with teams and companies is I'll spend a lot of time one-on-one with, with people inside the organization and then I'll play back to them. Here are the things that are barriers to flourishing in your organization. Here are the things that are supportive. And when I play back the barriers, so often I get this comment. Oh, I thought it was just me, you know, I didn't realize other people were suffering. And I think that's part of where this hamster hamster wheel image comes from is this idea that I'm alone fighting the good fight against against this culture that everyone else is thriving in, but we aren't thriving. So I think that's the first thing is just recognizing. The collective challenge that we all have, and the fact that it's not [00:07:00] a unique individual one, and then therein lies the answer for me. I very much believe. That community is the sort of counterweight or the support to flourishing at work, we support we've flourished through our connections with other people. And so that's often what we'll do is we'll start with a community, being a working team, be it a leadership team be it a team of people at middle management. And just identify, like, what's one thing that they want to do to support their sense of flourishing, and then we do it together.  Sarah: Yeah, it seems so simple, right? It seems so simple because it's like, well, all these people are there. You know, you have all these colleagues so just get together with them and share what you're feeling and that you're, you know, feeling this idea of. Loneliness or being in a hamster wheel. And yet I think part of that [00:08:00] industrial revolution training is, has been like, no, you just gotta power through it and you have to just wear your mask and do your spiel and kind of, you know, embraced us role because at work that's how you behave. D is that the hardest part to get people to actually, you know, learn how to be in community?  Amy: So I think we all have the natural instinct to be in community. I think we've all realized that especially over the last two years when we haven't been together. So we have that natural instinct in that capability. What's hard actually is turning it from just community about how do we achieve the next task or get the next thing done or shift. Brought up to how do we take some of that time and talk about how we work? What we focus on or I focus on when I help people is like, let's have a conversation about how you're working, not just what you're working on. And that's like, it is simple actually. And it's also very, very it feels very indulgent [00:09:00] to take the time to talk about how we work. But absolutely it, you know, small changes can make a big.  Sarah: Yeah, you're so right. It's this idea of just like I shared about the pausing on vacation, we just don't want to take the time to do something that feels like we're doing nothing. It's like, why would we, why are we talking about, you know, how we wanna, how we work instead of what the next thing we need to accomplish. And I also. When you talked, I thought, well, that's true in the workplace. And I definitely see it in my husband's company, but I would even say that even in the entrepreneurial space, we have become these kind of loan wolves and, and you know, everybody on their own. And even though we say that we have, you know, Facebook groups and all these social media networks to kind of be in touch, even there, I [00:10:00] feel like. It's still not this offense, that connection where we actually help each other. So I, I do feel like we can't just say, oh, it's all the corporate stuff. That's not doing a good job. I think even in the entrepreneurial space we need to kind of pause and say, okay, let's really collaborate. And co-create because I know. I think that we have been doing that. And for us, there really is no excuse, right? Where in the corporate world, maybe, you know, someone up there creates the culture and then, and then, you know, you just live in that culture for us. We actually have the privilege to be able to create that. So have you seen that also, you know, in kind of your entrepreneurial  Amy: fields, that there's a shift happening there too? You know, so much of what you said just resonated with me right now. And one of the things that I think ties corporate culture and entrepreneurial culture together is the broader culture that we're living in. And again, I mean that quite broad, I spent a [00:11:00] big chunk of my career outside of the U S and I saw. In Asia. I saw it in Australia. I saw it in Europe as well as in the U S but culturally, it feels bad if we're not pushing, pushing, pushing. And that is what creates that ripple effect in big companies. But it's also what creates this drive in us to keep going as entrepreneurs and to not stop and reflect as much as we know we should. I mean, how did it feel? Took a time to pause on your vacation. Right? It feels good. Doesn't it? It  Sarah: does. Yeah. I, like we said before, the call, it feels like at the, the first two days it's like, oh really? Am I just really unplugging? And it feels weird, but then once you do, it's like, oh, this. Life is all about let's face it, that that's where, you know, the, the, the memories happen. That's where you create memories for your kids and in your family in not in the business exchanges so  Amy: [00:12:00] much. Right? So we know intuitively when we have this felt sense that pausing is good for us. And yet culturally, we have this. You know, this voice that comes in and sounds like our own voice in our own head that says, you've gotta be pushing harder, you've gotta be working faster. And so the first thing is just kind of acknowledging that there's a tension there, right? And that's that's where I landed on this concept of flourishing at work, you know, originally I was playing around with different ways in different, you know, versus a different language. But flourishing really spoke to me. And I'll tell you why one it's. So scientists have studied what makes people flourish and I love that there's science behind this. We know what makes us feel good. But the thing that really connected with me for flourishing, and I'm curious if it resonates with you too. The idea that flourishing encompasses how we achieve, how we connect and how we recharge. It really kind of says, all of these things are important to making us feel [00:13:00] good. You can't have achievement without recharge. You can't have recharged without achievement and you can't have any of them without connection. And so sort of recognizing that those are all pieces of the puzzle that are important is, is how it. Help others and myself, frankly, as well too, to get the sense of flirty. Yeah. Yeah.  Sarah: W what I just saw as the image of a flower and, you know, these  Amy: different pedals  Sarah: that, like you said, pieces of the puzzles. And I was like, yeah. And then kind of flourishing the flower, you know, pieces, different pedals basically, then that all are needed for us to, to flourish. That's so true. Yeah. So, so what's the opportunity where, you know, w w what can we do as entrepreneurs and, and what are you working on with companies to, to create that shift? And maybe, you know, some companies already recognized the need for the chef, and then there's probably others who [00:14:00] are still. You know, lost in the industrial revolution and they haven't even recognized the shift. Where would you say? Kind of a percentage percentage-wise how many companies have already recognized something needs to change?  Amy: It's a great question. And one, I'll start with your, your prompt about what's the opportunity. I love that you ask it that way. You know, I, as I said earlier, I was trained as a designer and as designers, we're always trained to look for the opportunity that that sort of sits in the problem. Right? So a lot of like, there's a lot of talk lately about burnout. There's a lot of talk about language. And and you know, some studies will say up to 75% of people have felt overwhelmed stress burnout in their workplaces. So the, the, the issue is there, the opportunity for me is to flip it around and say, well, okay, that's one thing. Burnout is one thing, how do we flourish? Let's focus [00:15:00] on how do we flourish? What does it look like? Four-ish do companies recognize this. Absolutely. I would say many of them do. I'd say. What they grapple with is how can we be effective here? And a lot of, a lot of attention has been put on wellbeing programs in the workplace and what these can actually do unintentionally is exacerbate the problem because they're, they're offered as individual resources. Here's something for you. Employee acts to go and do. And what, what that isn't acknowledging is that there's this communal thing. There's this culture that we've all created and we've all kind of understood and accepted in our workplaces, whether they're startups or large companies. And that that culture is what makes it hard for us to make the change. And so I have really tactical things that people can do to start flip flipping this. But but yes, acknowledging that there's there's a real need is the first step. And I think a lot of companies are, they. [00:16:00] With the grapple with is how can we tactically make the change? Yeah,  Sarah: you're so right about the individual solutions and they're probably, you know, they're probably not wrong. Their first step. They're a nice to have, but they are not going to. Solve the problem of you know, for example, the great resignation people won't stay just because they now have a weekly meditation class in the company. Right. So it's really the culture that the communal aspect of the workplace that, that needs to change. And I don't, I think younger generations are just requiring that. So yeah. The other thing. I guess that we're also having to solve as yes, we want communities. And yet the trend is that we're all going, not going back to the actual office and workspace. So we did, it's like an additional [00:17:00] challenge. People are gonna still work from home. And so we need to somehow create community while being all over the place and not necessarily to get.  Amy: No, absolutely. That's so true. And you know, I just want to comment on your point about the younger generations are demanding that like, when you look into the data, it is generation. Z and the millennials who are more likely to be demanding change you know, us, us older folks and gen X, et cetera recognize it and need it as well. We're, we're just less likely as a generation to insist on it. And I love that these younger generations are because I believe that that it's the change that we need in our organizations. So even if, you know, as leaders, we're hesitant to. May cultural changes, recognizing that the younger generations coming up are, are not going to accept the status quo, I think is really good business motivation. So, so that I think is really [00:18:00] compelling opportunity for us in terms of like, what can we tactically do? And, and your point that many of us are not going back to the office. I think that there's, there's still so much that we can, that we can do even when we're not physically connected. And one of the biggest things that I talk about with the teams that I work with is this idea of. There are transactional interactions with our colleagues and there are relational interactions with our colleagues. And so much of what we've done over the past two years has lean towards the transactional, right? We're online. We're going to just get this thing done that we need to collaborate on. Maybe there's like two minutes of like, how was your weekend before that? But it really leans transaction. And what I believe that we need to do is to add in, you know, more dedicated relational moments and those we can do together when we're in person, that's more natural for us, but there are also really easy ways to do that when we're physically [00:19:00] separated. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I love that distinction between transactional and relational. And what I often use is, you know, the doing and the being the yin and the yang and, and, and totally, yeah. In, in, in our community, the humane marketing circle, we really want to come as humans to the circle. So, yes, there's the transactional piece to doing piece, you know, that the marketing advice, but then it's. Also about the being, being together as entrepreneurs who want to do marketing ethically and that mothers, I would say just as much as just getting the answer to, you know, what tools should I use for this and that. Right. And, and you're right. We're so trained to always want to. The quick fix the next answer, where we didn't actually realize what we're missing is also the relationship and the belonging to something bigger to a group, [00:20:00] even so to have companies realize that I think that's going to be a huge. Huge change. Like to actually say we value to put time aside for having people create relationships and, and, you know, they have to pay people while this happens. Right. That's going to be a huge shift. So I'm curious to hear from you. Yeah. If you envision the company of the future where people flourish at work, how does that look like? Amy: Yeah, no, that's a great question. And, and I agree, you know, to the first part of your, your comment, like companies do need to invest in and spend time in this. I don't think that's different than it ever was. I think we always had our social hours and, you know, our conferences, et cetera, et cetera. I think we need to be more intentional now. And I actually think that's a really good thing. And so if we look five years ahead I think that the company that [00:21:00] flourishes the most is the one that is most intentional about relationship building alongside the transactional stuff. It's funny. You were, you were on vacation last week. I took my first business trip in two years last week. And as I was going through the business trip, I was like, it just feels different than, than it used to. And I. I started polling, you know, folks on social media. I was like, have you, have you traveled for business? And if so, like what's different now than it used to be. And one person came back and said, you know, it's all about relationships now. And I've noticed that when I travel for business and connect with my colleagues personally, it makes all the transactional stuff so much easier. And so. That, you know, that's a key part of the business of the future. Will we be together or apart? I think that's going to vary by business. Some businesses will absolutely want to be together every day. Some will not. But I think it's super interesting, this comment on like how relationships make the [00:22:00] transactional stuff easier. And I do really believe that's a key point. Of of what the future successful businesses will look like. The other thing that I think is really important is having conversations. We spoke to this earlier about how we work just iterating on like what's working and what's not. You know, when we went into the pandemic, we all flipped mode almost overnight as we come out of the pandemic. I think it's going to be a longer journey to figuring out how we work together successfully, what it looks like to collaborate in this new environment. And so just creating space, regular space for having conversations about the, how, not just the, what that will be a hallmark of a flourishing company.  Sarah: Yeah, that really resonates with me. And, and I think you're right, it's this, it's a way from, you know, business trips to conferences and all these kind of big meetings and agendas. We can do those online [00:23:00] now, right. People are not going to travel for that anymore. Or I think also just going to be more like outings and. Things and, you know, just like, yeah. Getting to know the humans behind the zoom screen in a way. Right. So,  Amy: yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, Airbnb, I don't know if you caught this news cause you weren't offline and I hope you didn't actually, but I did  Sarah: actually. Yeah. Yeah. But they announced that people can now work from anywhere.  Amy: Right. People can work from anywhere forever. And I think two things were really important in that announcement. One is they said, expect to come together once a quarter with your colleagues. They're still figuring out what that looks like, but they're acknowledging that the there's this really urgent need for people to come together physically. Yeah too, and I think this relates to their business, but I think it's interesting for all of us. They said up to three months per year, you can work from any other country in the world. [00:24:00] And also that's about the relational, right? That's about for them immersing with their customers and understanding their lives. And so you know, I think that companies that are doubling down on this relational aspect will do well. Yeah,  Sarah: I think they're definitely setting an example for you know, for the future of business. And I'm sure a lot of. Young generations will either. They're like, that's exactly what we want. We want to work for a company. And, and, and I think we've proven many times over that the, this myths that we had before, the pandemic, that people don't work the same amount or same hours, because they're at home. I mean, we we've seen that, that that is absolutely not true. So, so yeah, there's. There's definitely good things that hopefully come out from this kind of weird times that we have gone through. And I'm glad for Airbnb to Jen is just kind of show the way. Yeah,  Amy: absolutely. And you know, two things I want to kind of [00:25:00] underlying here. I believe so. One of the things that I studied is. What, what makes behavior change successful? And you know, if you think about new year's resolutions, for instance, those are things that we always want to do. And yet how often are we actually successful behavior? Change is hard, even when we want it. And we're in the midst of the biggest work. Upheaval and change and our, and our lifetimes really. But one of the things that makes change successful is the shock of being in sort of this transition state and being in in this space where everything is kind of thrown up into the air. If you think in your own life, one did the biggest change happened. It wouldn't be surprising if it was around, you know, a move from one, you know, one place to another or a life change. You know, having kids getting married, graduating from college, all of these like big moments are when we make the biggest change. And so right now, as a [00:26:00] society, we're in one of those big moments collectively. And so we have this real opportunity to create change right now. And I think it's sort of important for all of them. To recognize that and to take advantage of it. Cause I think we could slip back into the way things used to be, but I don't think many of us want to. And so it's, it's an opportunity we have in this moment of, of ambiguity is that we're all more malleable than we ever will be either before or after.  Sarah: And it somehow requires also. Some work on ourselves. We can't just say, oh, you know, the company and blame it all on the company. Cause I feel like even for ourselves while we need to, you know, show some flexibility, more flexibility, maybe we need to even be okay with a pay cut things. We value now more because of the transformation we have gone through, they don't always come with more money. So this [00:27:00] idea of, you know, do I really want this promotion? Is that, that my next step? Or, or, or maybe do I value things differently? So I think it requires also some self-refer reflection and maybe changing some priorities in their own life. Amy: Oh, I a thousand percent agree. And actually, you know, if the first thing that folks need to contemplate is how do they add in more of the relationship relational interactions? The second thing I I'm advocating for. Consider what agency you have and use that agency. And I think this is true startup or big company, but I think it's really easy to get into the situation where you think this is the way the world is, or this is the way things are. But absolutely we have the chance no matter where we sit to kind of recognize the amount of change that we can create. And to grasp that and to [00:28:00] do something about it. And absolutely flexibility is one of the, sort of the biggest things that comes up over and over again, as, as a desire for my clients. But what does that look like? What does it mean? What, what do you really want by flexibility? And often it boils down to things that are not financially related, right? I want to be able to show up for my kids' soccer games. Like I have been able to, I want to be able to be here when my child is sick. Things like that I think are much more internally intrinsically motivated than extrinsic extrinsic. And and that's part of the conversation I think we can have together is like, what do we need to be able to work healthfully and well together.  Sarah: Yeah. And it really is such an opportunity to, to have this time of change due to sit down and have this reflection. Right. Because before we were just in our trans mode and, and just, you know, work and sleep and work again, [00:29:00] now we actually have to time to think, well, what do I want out of yeah, out of my time here on this earth,  Amy: I like to say that I think. Every person, probably over the age of two in the world has had some sort of epiphany over the past two years. Right. They have this chance to reflect on what they really want. And it's, it's helpful to remember that we're all in that space together right now. And so one better in our lives to talk about change and what we really want out of how we work together. Then.  Sarah: Yeah, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me. It's I just really. I'm so delighted that we are living in this time of change. Like, I couldn't be happier that we are, you know, on earth right now to, to live through this change. And I, yeah, obviously I, I hope we'll see the other of the change, but I'm just so grateful also for [00:30:00] people like you, who help companies Yeah, pivot to you through this. So I would, I'd be delighted if you shared, you know, where people can find out more about you and how you work with companies, but also the smaller startups,  Amy: right? Yeah, absolutely. I'll share that one, one thought before I do you mentioned this, that we're all in this state of change and an exciting, and also it'll, it'll eventually settle down and I just want to acknowledge that change is very uncomfortable for us, whether or not we, we want it. And so just recognizing that it is a period of great excitement and possibility. D it's deeply unsettling. So so if it feels unsettling, that's, that's part of the human condition. Yes, I work with companies. I have a company called now and it is all about helping people to flourish at work. And I work with everyone from startups to huge, huge corporations on this. And we provide [00:31:00] programs and also bespoke support for those countries. I can be found on all the social channels. Well, except for Facebook, I don't, I don't Facebook right now. But active on LinkedIn and Instagram. And I will share a link for, for an article that I've written that really, it it's about. How people can flourish as they start a new job during a pandemic, but actually it applies to anyone. And it has some really just really practical tips for how to increase, especially that relational aspect that we talked about.  Sarah: I'll put that in the show notes  Amy: for sure. Great. Thank you. And then also and I'll share a link to this, but just an offer. I would be very happy to chat one-on-one with folks who are. Recognizing they want to do something to change their companies. Focus on flourishing. And so I'll share a link to that too. Don't hesitate to reach out just my gift to your [00:32:00] listeners. How can, how can we together identify a few steps that you can, you can make to, to create practical? Sarah: Wonderful. Amazing offer. Thank you so much, Amy. You know that I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? This one?  Amy: Yeah. So much actually one I've I've been sick recently. I have long COVID and I'm feeling better. And so I just, I think anytime you go through a health incident, like. It's it's just a reminder of how important health is, and I'm just such a believer in sort of the connection of mind and body and, and, and the health that, you know, the importance of health and, and everything would be so grateful for that. You're feeling better. Thank you. But I also just want to say I'm so grateful for the community that I have, and I think that is what keeps me flourishing. You know, I'm grateful for. For the other [00:33:00] entrepreneurs like yourself, who who I'm lucky enough to be friends with, who are, are honest and vulnerable with me about what their challenges are. And likewise, I can be with them. We all need these safe spaces to be able to kind of grapple with, with what's easy and hard about growing a business and some so, so grateful for my dear friends who who share their journeys. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. It's so important to have that community of close friends or, or, or other entrepreneurs who like you say, show up real, like, where are you feel like, oh, this is real. I can tell the difference.  Amy: Yeah, easy. So it's so great to have that, that support.  Sarah: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be a guest on the humane marketing podcast. Amy, it's been a great pleasure to talk about.  Amy: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for inviting me in, and I'm such a fan of your work as well, Sarah, so thank you for, including me [00:34:00] in your journey.

It was such a pleasure to talk to Sarah Harkness. Sarah is a former partner at Arthur Andersen who had a career in corporate finance and then as a non-executive director. She is now a literary late bloomer. She has self-published a book about the Victorian artist Nelly Erichsen. She has an MA in Biography from the University of Buckingham, where she studied with with Jane Ridley. She won the Tony Lothian Prize, 2022. And she is now writing a biography of the Victorian publisher Alexander Macmillan and his brother which will be published next year. We talked about Sarah's career, her long-held ambitions, what she learned from corporate finance, her views on talent spotting, Alexander Macmillan, how Sarah would try to discover other late bloomers lurking in the wrong jobs, and why a business career helps you to understand Victorian literature.Being a Late Bloomer and Alexander MacMillanHenry: Are you a late bloomer?Sarah: My husband says I should be very annoyed at that question because he says I've been marvellous all along. I think I'm a late bloomer if in the blooming bit, which is that I'm now doing something that makes me really unconditionally happy, whereas before I did a lot of stuff that was sometimes important and sometimes well paid, but I never enjoyed it half as much as what I'm doing now.Henry: So, let's start with just briefly, what are you doing that makes you really happy now?Sarah: I have a contract to write a book that a proper-publishing house says they're going to publish. So I'm writing a biography, a double biography called The Brothers of Daniel and Alexander Macmillan, who founded MacMillan publishing 180 years ago. And it's taken me a while, but I've got an agent and I've got a publishing contract, and I need to submit a manuscript in the next eight months, and it will come out in 2024 all being well. And that's making me very happy.Henry: Good, and that's the grandfather or great-grandfather of the prime minister?Sarah: Daniel is the grandfather of the prime minister, and Alexander, who's the one who really built the business after Daniel died, is his great uncle.Henry: So an interesting family for more than just their business interests.Sarah: Yeah. And I mean, fantastic achievers themselves because Daniel and Alexander were born into absolute poverty on the West Coast of Scotland. Their father was a carter, who died when they were young boys. Daniel left school at 10, Alexander when he was 15. And by the mid-1860s, Alexander is one of the literary hosts of London, and within two generations, they have an offspring who will be prime minister and married into the Duke of Devonshire's family, it's quite a climb.Henry: So, what we're talking about, this is really the Victorian self-made man?Sarah: Absolutely. Samuel Smiles and all his glory, absolutely.Henry: Yeah, yeah, we love Samuel Smiles.Sarah: Yeah, same.Henry: So, where does your interest in that type of subject or person come from?Sarah: Well, there's a basic love of all my period, of all the periods of history and all the periods of literature, Victorian times would be absolutely bang on is what I know most about. I'm very comfortable working in that time, and I love the books and the poetry from that time. The way I found it was very serendipitous, which was that my husband collects art and had found a lot of art by a big, very unknown Victorian woman painter. And I researched her life, and the more I researched it, the more I thought I need to write this down, and it turned into a book that no one would publish, but people said to me, "Write about someone we've heard of and come back to us," and that's a really hard question because almost everyone you've heard of has got a book. That's why you've heard of them, but I had a stroke of luck, which was literally in the research on the book about... The artist is called Nelly Erichsen, and in my research on her, she was a neighbour of the MacMillan family in South London in the 1870s, and related by marriage, sort of in a hop and a skip to the MacMillan family, so she knew the MacMillans, she stayed with the MacMillans. And I did research the MacMillan family to write about Nelly, and there wasn't a book, there haven't been a book since the 19... Since 1940. So there was an opening to do a book because most people have heard of MacMillan Publishing, most people would think it was interesting to understand how that had been started and no one has written about it for 80 years. So that was the stroke of luck, I think.Henry: So it comes from a kind of a long-term immersion in the period and a very indirect discovery of the subject matter?Sarah: It does, it does. I mean, I have been talking about Nelly Erichsen and her bit of Tooting where she lived and the people that she knew for, gosh, nearly 20 years now, so I mean it is a long immersion, but it took me a very long time to have confidence to show anyone what I was writing about it.Early interest in VictoriansHenry: Yeah. And that if we go back 20 years, is that where you start sort of reading and working on this?Sarah: Yes.Henry: Or had you been reading about the Victorians from earlier?Sarah: I think that... I mean, I did PPE at Oxford, but my favourite paper and finals was Victorian social political history, so the 1860s is bang on the period. I think all the time I was working and having a career, I was reading my way through Trollope and Dickens and George Eliot, so... And Tennyson. So that in that way, and it's the sort of art I like, so it is definitely my spot, but I had never thought about researching online, finding out about anyone and writing it down until, yeah, 15 years ago when I started doing that.Henry: But when you started doing that, you'd actually had years of reading the novels, being immersed in the period, it goes back, you were ready, you weren't just coming to this out of nowhere?Sarah: Yes, I wasn't, I wasn't. And it does remind me that about... Well, it was at the time when my children were babies, I wanted to give up work and study Victorian literature. I mean, I felt then that it was something I wanted to do, and I had an idea of writing... The book that inspired me was some Anthony Trollope's The Way We Live Now.Henry: Fantastic book.Sarah: And I was fascinated, yeah, fascinated by the Melmotte character and I wanted to do an MA or something that would allow me to write, to use the knowledge I had at the city today against what was Trollope writing about, I thought that would be interesting. So I have thought about it 25 years ago, and that had to absolutely no encouragement from anyone to do anything about it. So I didn't, I kept working, but it's funny that that's almost where I've ended back up, which is looking at Victorian literature.Henry: Yeah, it's like a... It's a deep vein that runs through your life and now it's come to the surface.Sarah: It is, it is, absolutely.Sarah in the City: business expertise as a literary advantageHenry: So, you've hinted it that you did PPE, you were in the city, tell us, because you were already blooming before, you are not a late bloomer, you're a repeat bloomer, tell us what was happening when you weren't being a Victorian writer.Sarah: So, I went from Oxford into the city into a corporate finance house that was part of NatWest Bank, so we call that NatWest markets, and I did corporate finance, so flotations, mergers, takeovers, raising money from 1983 right the way through to 1990s. In the 1990s, I left London and moved up to Yorkshire, but I kept working. And at that point, I had small children, so I was working three or four days a week, working in Leeds doing corporate finance. And then there was a big excitement in 1998 because I left NatWest and took my team into Arthur Andersen, which at the time caused a bit of a fuss and a bit of a stir. And I had three or four... Four years at Arthur Andersen. And then Arthur Andersen went into liquidation. And at that point, I'd been doing corporate finance for nearly 20 years and I'd had enough of it, and there were a lot of young and unpleasant young men coming up who didn't think that women in their 40s with children should be stopping them doing what they wanted to do. So I did head-hunting for a little while, and then I started becoming a non-executive director, so I became plural. And I'm still plural, I still do trustee jobs, and audit jobs, non-executive director jobs.Henry: So you, in three different ways, at Arthur Andersen, and then as a head-hunter, and then as a non-exec, you've actually been a senior person. You've been running an area of a business, you've had that kind of oversight?Sarah: Yeah.Henry: Does this help you... You've got the background reading Trollope and understanding the character of Melmotte, but you've also got the background as actually a business person. So when you look at someone like MacMillan, if you hadn't done that career, you would have had less insight. Do you sort of...Sarah: I think that's right, I think that's right. I've spent some time in the archives just the other week looking at the partnership deeds from when he set the business up. I've looked at... There had to be a court case in Chancery when Daniel's widow died because she died in testate and there was a risk that the partnership would have to be dissolved and split around his children. So to me, that makes sense. The big risks that he takes, like moving from Cambridge to London, and then at the moment, I'm really interested in him opening an office in New York, which he did in 1869. I mean to me, that is about a business risk. And then, this little small bit. So at the time when I was running an office in Leeds, I was very conscious of how vulnerable you feel when you are not in the head-office, when you are running a satellite. And I've been reading this week, the letters coming back from New York to London, from the poor chap that Alexander sent out to New York. And I can... I mean, I could have written those letters, you know, "Just tell me what's going on?" "What are your plans?" "What do you mean your son's coming to work here?" "Is that alright? Is that a good sign?" And so that to me is business as well, so I do recognise a lot of it.Henry: Yeah, that's a timeless problem, especially in big-business today, right, global businesses?Sarah: It is, it is. "How do you make everyone feel equally important?" and, "How do you manage something that's the other side of the ocean?"Henry: So your book will be interesting, not just from a sort of literary and social-history perspective, but for people in business or people trying to understand how to be a manager.Sarah: I hope so, I hope so. Alexander did an enormous amount all on his own, but as I move on, he's going to start running a more complex business. And I haven't really gotten into that yet. He's got one partner and he's just set up, sent someone to New York. But it will become more interesting. And then, how he's gonna bring the sons and nephews into the business, is gonna be fascinating. Because they didn't all want to come in at the same time and he's got to manage that as well. So it is a business book.Henry: So he's a sort of... He's a great publisher with an eye for a book, he's a great businessman who can cut deals and manage money, and he's also important as a people manager.Sarah: He is, he is, and seems to manage that well. Other firms are not nearly as successful as MacMillan, avoid the wrong people. He never really gets anything... The big calls, he doesn't get them wrong. He never has a big failure. If he launches a magazine, he goes on supporting it, it survives. If he launches an office in New York, it becomes... MacMillan, New York, becomes bigger than MacMillan, England. He doesn't make bad calls, he is a good manager.Henry: And where does that come from? Because he grew up... He did not grow up around business people. Where does that come from?Sarah: He certainly didn't, he certainly didn't. I don't know, that's really interesting. I mean, I think he was much more entrepreneurial than his brother was. The business really takes off when Daniel dies. Daniel was driven by a Christian missionary spirit. He was driven by Christian socialism, he wanted to bring good-quality and religious literature to the masses and the working man. And he saw it as... He wasn't well enough to go to India, so this was his mission. Alexander goes along with that and is fascinated by the Christian socialist side, but he also wants to make money. And I think some of it might just be, you know... He wakes up one day in 1857, and suddenly he's responsible for eight children, his wife, and a widow, people who work for him. He really has to grip it or he'll sink. And he grips it. But how and why? Apart from sheer bravery, I don't know how he got to do that. He didn't have any models, he wasn't being mentored by anyone else in the industry, they all saw him as a Scottish upstart. So there's one guy he talks to who's a publisher in Edinburgh called MacLehose, but he becomes much more successful than MacLehose.Henry: Was he a late-bloomer?Sarah: Alexander? So when Daniel dies, he... How old is he? He's nearly 40, he's nearly 40. And up until then, yes, he's been the second fiddle in the business. He's had a ton of energy. I mean, if you research him, he's living in Cambridge, running a shop in Cambridge, but he's also... He's on the board of the Working Men's College that they establish. He's doing stuff with the YMCA in Cambridge. He's a parish overseer. He has a ton of energy, and he talks about... You know, he was up reading throughs till 2:00 in the morning, and he was up again at 6:00 to get a train to London. His wife must have been pulling her hair out, I would think. [laughter] So he was a man of phenomenal energy, and not good health, he suffered badly from sciatica and various other problems. He was sometimes frustrated with pain, but he never gave up. He's quite a hero.Henry: Yeah, he is. He sounds really interesting. I'm really looking forward to this book. So, I want to go back over your... We've had the summary of your life. I want to get into some details because it's really, really interesting how you kept to yourself those interests and ambitions for so long, and obviously lots of people do that. Lots of people leave university and they've got a thing that they really, they're passionate about, but they end up as an accountant or whatever, and it just sort of slowly dies, or they realise they're not quite as interested as all that, or life gets in the way, or they have kids. Why didn't it go away for you? Because when you were a senior at Arthur Andersen, you were pretty busy, right?Sarah: Yeah, and I don't think, if you'd said to me... If you had said to me when I was a senior at Arthur Andersen, "Would you still like to write a book?" I just said, "Don't be daft, of course not." [laughter] But my huge frustration with Andersen, and I had some mentoring at the time from a coach who said to me, "The problem you have is that you have a person who needs choice and the more involved in one particular job you get, the more you push, get pushed down a tunnel, the less happy you will be, Sarah, because you like to wake up every morning and you think, I'm gonna do something different today. What am I going to do today? What am I going to do today?" And that's the life I now have. And it's the life I've had since the day I walked out of Arthur Andersen in 2002, which is every day I've done something a bit different. And the lucky break that happened to me was the collapse of Andersen could have been a disaster, but actually it gave me a lump sum and it gave me freedom to explore, bend my career to suit my children and my circumstances, and it gave me time to discover the things I liked doing.Henry: Do you think... So one thing that separates a lot of late bloomers from early bloomers, although as discussed you were an early bloomer, but it's that early bloomers often have a mentor or they belong to a small group of their peers. So they have people that they can experiment with and have ideas with, or they have someone saying, "Don't be an idiot, you need to do this, why haven't you written to that person or whatever." And late bloomers often just don't have this.Sarah: No.Henry: But I've got a little theory that it probably wouldn't have made any difference. And that in a way, you're... Tell me if this is right, you're quite a divergent person.Sarah: Yeah.Henry: But you were in a very narrow life.Sarah: I was.Henry: And the only mentorship that you required was for someone to say, as they said to you, you're in the wrong game here.Sarah: Yes.Henry: And you needed to take your own time, you needed to take your own path. There's something innate about, or just in your personality, that means you were never going to write a book when you were 25.Sarah: No.Henry: And the other experiences you gathered along the way were part of that divergence. What do you think of that as a sort of model of you and of other late bloomers?Sarah: I certainly think that there was no way when I was in my 20s and 30s, anyone that I knew, socialised with or worked with would have had any interest at all in what interested me. I mean, none of them read. None of them went to the theatre like I went to the theatre. None of them had the interest in film that I had. And at the time, I was married into the medical profession, and they absolutely weren't. So I mean at business they weren't interested, medics aren't interested, or don't have time to be fair to them. So it had to be just in my head and what I read and what I started listening to once you started getting audio books and I had time. So definitely there was no one around in my 20s who would have given me any encouragement to do anything different, and I was sucked into a job that was very high, very exciting, very high pressure and very rewarding, and then I had children, which we know, really upped the confusion of life. And I was just lucky that at the age of 40 I was relaxed and comfortable enough to be able to start spending my time with people who were encouraging.Henry: How unusual do you think it is to have... You do PPE, you work in corporate finance, but you've also got a strong interest in literature and the arts, and as you say, you don't do...Sarah: Really unusual. I can think... Of all the people I worked with right through for NatWest under Andersen, I can remember the one guy who, if you went on a business trip with him would open his briefcase to get out a book. He was a wonderful man, he was called Simon Metgrove, and he carried poetry around his briefcase. I remember him. He is the only one. I mean, no one else did, they read the... They read the FT, they talked about business. There was a lot of heavy drinking. It just, it wasn't part of the culture at all, and I didn't live with anyone who read like I read either. So it was completely me on my own blowing my own little furrow.Henry: Where does this joint interest come from? Is that parents, school, Oxford? Is it something you just always remember?Sarah: I think from my parents. I think particularly from my mother who had, came from a very, very poor background, left school as fast as she could when war broke out and got a job at the age of 16. And then after she married, my dad became a more senior civil servant. My mum discovered she needed and wanted to educate herself, so when I was growing up, my mother was doing WEA classes, and talking to me because I was by far the youngest child, so I was more or less at home on my own with her. She would talk to me about an essay she had to write on Jane Austin or she was reading T.S. Eliot, and she would talk to me about it all the time. So that was very encouraging. And she knew poetry, and that's... I've passed on to my children who are all interested in literature in their way. That background, if you need to... You know the stories, you know every Jane Austin, you know your Dickens, you know your poems. That comes from my mum and my dad as well. Yeah.Henry: Sounds like your mum was a bit of a late bloomer.Sarah: I think she was a frustrated, never bloomed because she was that generation of just they stated at home, and it didn't do her any good at all. She was quite an unhappy woman.Henry: Do you have her in mind as a sort of model of she went back and started doing that education and was that something that was just with you?Sarah: I think it probably was, I think it made sense to me that I could do an MA when I was 55, because my mother would have thought that was a sensible thing to do. If I had the time and the money, and then why wouldn't I do it? So yeah, it seems perfectly sensible to me, I didn't think it was odd. My husband had done one as well, and he was... I've never had any education at all, and did an MA ten years ago, so.Henry: Oh great.Sarah: Yeah, University of Buckingham.Henry: Oh very good.[laughter]Henry: And how did you end up at Oxford?Sarah: Oh, I came from a tiny Grammar School in Dorset that sent one girl to Oxford or Cambridge about every three or four years, so it felt like quite a lonely process. And I had massive imposter syndrome. I didn't get into the college I applied to, but there's a college in Oxford, Mansfield, that used to just collect all the best people that didn't get into any of the other colleges. We were all there with chips on our shoulders because we haven't got into some St. John's or Balliol and the others. And it was an incredibly good atmosphere, but it's still, there were two issues, one was Oxford was still dominated by the public schools, and I was a Grammar School girl.And Oxford was dominated by the big confident academic colleges, and I was at the college no one had heard of, so spinning out of that and into the city, just felt like that was a bit of a weird stroke of luck, because even though I was at Oxford doing PPE, I didn't feel like I was... I didn't feel like I had... It would never have occurred to me to become academic when I left university. I wasn't going to get a first, I wasn't going to do that.Henry: But did this thing about imposter syndrome and sort of being in a marginal position, is that quite good because it does encourage you to sort of keep seeing yourself as divergent and keep seeing yourself as not quite in the right place. It preserves that energy of well, I'm here, but I'm not going to stay here, whereas if you'd got into the right college and being more accepted, maybe you would have just a bit more easily slipped into a, staying on the track, if you like.Sarah: Maybe, maybe. But I don't feel that I was a very assertive person when I started work. To me, working my way up through the city, I would contrast myself with mostly men who were working around me, all of whom had a time table, I've got to be an assistant director by this age and I'm going to be director by this age, then I'm going to go out and join a real company and I'm going to make money. And I was just wanted to keep my job and keep doing it.And not get in any trouble. But then what used to happen is I would get to know someone at my level, and I think, well, other clever people in the next room because he's not very bright, and then why is he gonna get promoted and not me? Because I think I'm better. So I think there's a bit of that chippiness or edginess which makes you... Which can make you push on a bit harder, but it certainly didn't drive me. I was always a bit surprised, to be honest, I was always a bit surprised when I got promoted, I was a bit surprised when Andersen hired me and I was very surprised when that got in the papers. It was always a bit of a surprise to me. So I didn't have much confidence.Henry: As you talk about your background, it sounds a bit like there are parallels between you and McMillan. You don't come from an Arthur Andersen background, but there you are and you become very successful, just like he didn't come from that. Is that part of what interests him to you, like, are you writing about yourself?Sarah: Well, I haven't thought of that, but I think I absolutely am sensitive. So I feel for him when I know how much he did for certain Victorian writers, and I go to their memoirs and diaries and letters, and he hardly gets a mention. And I know because I can see all the letters he wrote to them where he said, "You've got to change the title, you've got to take out half that book, why don't you write about this instead." I can see what he was giving to them, and then you go to the index of some of their books, and he gets a one line or it mentions that this is something I wrote in Macmillan magazine. I am very sensitive to Alexander 's, feeling that people took him for granted, didn't give him any due reward, and I suspect he... Yeah, I suspect, I do imagine that he felt some of the stuff that I felt, which is, have I got any right to be in this room and actually now I've met them, they're not a bright as I thought they were gonna be. And you could see his confidence grows in the '60s, he definitely becomes a lot more assertive with his authors during the '60s.Henry: Oh, really?Sarah: Yeah, the more he spends time with them, the firmer he gets about I'm not publishing that, this isn't good enough, he takes on Lady Caroline Norton and that's quite a brave thing to do.And I think he wins, so that's very hard to tell.Henry: I always have a slightly, not very well-informed view, but a view that there was less editing of novels in the 19th century, and that Thomas Hardy dropped off his manuscript and they printed it, and that was that. You seem to have found a lot of material that suggests that the authors wouldn't talk about it, but that their work more edited quite heavily.Sarah: I think their work was edited quite heavily. And particularly, so the complication is the ones who are submitting for something for serialisation in a magazine, I think they were just so relieved to get at each month and another month that turned up. 'Cause you know that they were writing up to the deadline. So that didn't get edited, but then sometimes you can see at Macmillan saying, "When we turn this into a book, we're gonna do something different with it." That definitely happens. He does it to Charles Kingsley, Water Babies when it comes out as a book, has been edited from what appeared in the magazine. And what the other author, Mrs. Oliphant published a serial in the magazine, and he definitely got her to change it before it went into the book. So he did have an influence on these people, you wouldn't get from either their biographies or autobiographies.Life LessonsHenry: No. So this sort of feeling that you've described as almost a chip on the shoulder feeling, I think this is potentially an advantage because when I look at some of the scientific research on late bloomers, one thing you notice is, take scientists, for example. A lot of scientists make their breakthrough when they are young, but when people have researched this and said why is that, it's because a lot of scientists stop working once they get tenure or once they win a prize or whatever. The scientists who do carry on working, keep making breakthroughs. [chuckle] So it's actually not because there's anything special about being young, it's because that's when people are really trying. If you don't ever settle into, the people you have met who are on a time table, "I'm going to be a director at this age," they get there and they settle in and, great. They can cruise through for a bit. But if you never settle into that or you retain the chip or you retain the sort of feeling of oh, God. Oh, God. Should I really be here? That's actually quite good because it keeps you energetic and it keeps you looking and it keeps you thinking "What am I going to do? What am I going to do?" Do you think there's a kind of... I don't know. Was that part of your success and Alexander's success that it... You never settled for what you had.Sarah: Yeah. I think that's right and there's something else I would see a parallel, which is I was not the greatest corporate financier in terms of my grasp of numbers and I'm hopeless at negotiation. But what I was doing, which most of my colleagues weren't, is I can market and sell. I'm interested in people and I used to go and win business. I used to bring it back and then other people would transact it, but that's certainly what I did in Yorkshire. I was out all the time meeting people because I was interested and I wanted to know what they did and what they did and how does that business work.So I was always out looking and I never wanted to just sit at my desk and shout at people and run the numbers again. I wasn't very good at any of that, but I think I can see that in Alexander too. I mean, Alexander recruits a partner in the mid-1860s to take the back end off him because he just wants to be out meeting new authors and that's what he's gonna be good at and George Lillie Craik is going run the numbers and have the fights with the printers and talk to America. So I can see that and I think that is... You're not that interested in the day job, you're interested in the next idea and the next interesting thing that's gonna grab your attention. And because you're interested, other people bond with you and, hey, you've made a sale. I used to talk to potential clients who would say, "It's really good that you've come out because you sound like you're genuinely interested in this business whereas the other three guys were just wondering what fee they could get out of me."That's why I would win business 'cause I was interested in them as people and I made friends and I asked interesting questions. And I wasn't just there kicking the tires and then hoping I can sign someone up, you know?Henry: Yeah, yeah. That's the novel reader in you.Sarah: Yes.Henry: There will be lots of women in their 30s in City jobs or office jobs or accountancy jobs or whatever who feel the way you felt. Either they've got imposter syndrome or they secretly would rather just be reading Trollope or whatever. What's your advice to them? Difficult to give advice in general terms, but, you know.Sarah: Yeah. My advice is you will... The thing you will do best is the thing that makes you happiest. So if you go on trying to push yourself into being something that you see other people being and it's not really making you happy, you won't be very successful at it anyway. So it is worth taking a risk and thinking is there something out there I could do, which I'm... Owning a flower shop or whatever, that would make me happier. If I had stayed on in corporate finance, if I had gone into private equity, I could have made millions and millions, but I don't think I'd have been any happier. In fact, I think I'd have been a lot less happy than I am sitting here on a tiny, little book advance doing exactly what I wanted to do. I don't regret any of that because I wouldn't have enjoyed it. I wouldn't have liked doing it.I mean, the other thing is... The other thing I would say to all women who are in my position is don't beat yourself up all the time that you're not being the perfect mother or the perfect executive because you're gonna live with that guilt forever and you're never gonna know what you could have done better. If you had given up, maybe you'd have been a terrible mother at home. If you'd found the children out or never had them, maybe your career wouldn't have taken off. You're never going to know. So don't beat yourself up with that, just do the best you can and cut corners wherever you can and get help. And don't be afraid to say, "I need help with this" and "I can't come tonight 'cause I've got to go to a parents evening." Just... The more women say that we need help with this and don't try and pretend that it's easy. It's not easy. It's never gonna be easy to do both. I found it very hard.Henry: So you are now navigating the publishing world. Doing book research, being a writer. What things did you learn from your earlier career in all its guises whether it's like small techniques and skills or sort of big life lessons or whatever, but what things did you learn from that earlier career that you're sort of using now?Sarah: I certainly learned... I mean, I certainly picked up a lot of small skills along the way. I am a very fast reader, I'm a summariser and a lot of my job in corporate finance was writing good, crisp, prose because you wrote prospectus because you wrote... So I think all of that has helped. I think I'm a better writer and a better researcher because I did it professionally for 20 years, but we called it corporate finance. I mean, there was a lot of cross over. In terms of the bigger stuff, what have I learned? I've learned to cope with worry and stress. I mean, if you wake up in the middle of the night and stuff's going around in your head, get up, have a cup of tea and write it all down. Don't lie in bed worrying that you're not going back to sleep. You just have to learn to cope with stress.And I think the other thing I've learned and I try and get into my children's head all the time is to be more assertive just not to run away and hide. If you think something's wrong or you're not being treated properly, don't lose your temper, don't sulk and don't spend your whole life taking it out on your friends and your family. You have to address it at work. Nothing is more boring than the person who really ought to have handed in their notice and just spends their whole life moaning to their wife, their husband, their best friends about what their bloody job is. Don't do it. If you don't like what you're doing, you will become very boring and to everybody else. Change your job. Change your job.Henry: Yes. Yes. Having recently been that person, I can endorse that sentiment. Sarah: So we've all done that. We've all spent time listening to someone who's thinking, why don't they just stop doing this job if it's making them so unhappy? And I know that's a... I know particularly the current climate that's easier said than done, but don't, life's very short really.Henry: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's right. And what would the Alexander McMillan advice be? Could we have a little book of the wisdom of Alexander McMillan?Sarah: I think he's going... I mean, I am absolutely immersed in his life in the 1860s. And it is that the decade of the 1860s is the absolute pivotal decade for the business. It completely transforms. It looks utterly different in 1870 than it did in 1860. In 1871, his first wife dies and he rapidly remarries a much younger woman. And I think he starts going abroad on holidays. And I think his life changes. I think the 1870s Alexander is gonna... Had a younger woman saying to him, you're killing yourself. It's not worth it. You've got sons coming into the business, let George take the strain. We're going to France for a month Alexander and you are coming too. I mean, I think his life is gonna change in the 1870s.Ask me again when I know what he's writing to people in the '70s. Because in the '60s, he's saying, get your head down. Really got to work. Put start another book. Don't let the grass grow on your feet. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. He's at it all the time. I think he's gonna have a very different attitude in 10 years' time.Henry: A lot of writers seem to have a decade or a 15 year period where they kind of really do most of their great work. If that seems to be like that for him, but in a business sense, then you're saying the '60s that was his time and then it cooled off.Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And well after... But with a publishing house in particular, I think once you built up a critical mass, it's not so difficult to run because good authors are going come to you and you can be selective and you can take a Thomas Hardy manuscript and you can take a Kipling manuscript and a Henrig. They're going to come to you. Whereas in the 1860s, he's really scrabbling around. What's going to be good? And he creates things like the Golden Treasury Series or the Clarendon Press textbooks with Oxford University. He's creating things because he hasn't got Thomas Hardy or Henry James. He's got Charles Kingsley, who's becoming increasingly racist and unpleasant. By the 1870s, the business is... There's a magazine that comes out every month. It has regular subscriptions.And now Nature is going to come out every month and be written for by her Huxley. And he's got, he can choose who he publishes. So I think by the 1870s, the business runs much better even when he is on holiday. Whereas in the 1860s, he just needs to be there every day and he needs to read every manuscript and he needs to look at every proof and he's changing the colour of the bindings. He's in all over it and I think it would've killed him and it killed his wife possibly. And I think in the 1870s, it's easier for him to step back. And then he starts having a son and a nephew in the business. And then he has three nephews in the business, I mean, it just moves on. And he's lucky that the next generation of the one, two, three, five boys, three of them stay in the business and are still in the business in their 70s and 80s. And they all die within a couple of months of each other in 1936, bang, bang, bang. But they were all there, three brothers. So he's lucky in that there is at least two generations of McMillan that know how to run a publishing company. Not everyone gets that. Do they? Some people can't even get to some...Talent SpottingHenry: What did you learn about talent spotting when you were at Arthur Andersen?Sarah: That one of the best things you can have in a business career is instinct about people, that I could always tell within five minutes of an interview starting whether I ought to hire this person or not. It's a bit like house hunting, it all looks lovely on paper and then sometimes you get to the gate and you think I'm not even going to look at this house. [laughter] I can't imagine living in this house, why have I come? And I think I had really good instinct for people spotting and I was good at bringing people on particularly women. I mean, there were a couple of women around who say nice things to me about I learned a lot from you, Sarah.Henry: What were the signals? The good and the bad signals? What set your instincts off?Sarah: Genuine intelligence, not just... A spark in the eye literally and a bit of a sense of humour. So not just they've learned it all by wrote. I wasn't ever interested in the people who told me they'd been reading the Financial Times since they were 12. I was interested in someone who'd tell me something interesting they'd seen it on the back of a lorry coming into the interview. That was a better sign for me of genuine interest. And I always used to say when I was teaching other people to interview and hire as well, if you don't think...If this new person is going start on Monday morning, am I going to really look forward to seeing them? Or am I thinking that, I hope this is gonna be alright? Then you've already made your decision, you want that person to be someone you wanna work with on a Monday morning when it's pouring with rain and you've got to hangover you. So pick people who you are gonna get on with and who are as bright as you are or brighter if you can find them.Henry: Let's say I was going to plant you into the offices of some big consultancy, PwC or EY or someone, and your job is to talent spot some potential late bloomers. They don't have to want to write a book or be victorious, they just have to be some other Sarahs, who have this in them, but they're not talking about it, and we don't know what it is, how are you going to go about looking for these people, and when will your instinct sort of prick up and say, "Yeah, I'm gonna get to know her, she seems like there's something in the background there."Sarah: I think it's the... You're gonna see that person thinking outside the box. So in a room of people where everyone said something around the table, they've said the most interesting thing that wasn't what anyone else said. And it might have been a small point that they've made, but it was just different their brains weren't working, they weren't doing groups speak. Because they may not have been listening to the group speak and they might though it was very dull, but this was the thing that had been interesting them about this problem. And I know that's the thing. I also think I would be looking for the person who had done something interesting at the weekend, or was going to theatre that night or just the show that the brain was not completely sucked into the job, that in fact, they were probably more looking like hoping they were gonna get to the national theatre that night, than worrying about anything else that was going on. It's that feeling that you have a life outside work. And for lots of people, there is no life outside work.And I feel so sorry for them when they give up because, what are they gonna do with their lives? Whereas I always knew that there were 50 things. If I'd have to stop working tomorrow, I wouldn't have been bored for a second, there are 50 things I wanted to do, and I always feel sorry for people to say, "Oh, I don't know what I'd do if I didn't have this job." Really? You know.But I think, how do you spot them when that's not coming out? I think you are gonna spot them because they are gonna say something that's a different take from everyone else.Henry: Yeah, no, that's interesting, if you're not going to sort of have the chance to see them pull a book of poetry out of the briefcase or whatever, you can... You're saying there are signals in the meeting. Comes back to divergence almost, they're not...Sarah: It does.Henry: How many people do you think you met like that in your career? I tell you why I'm asking, I feel like we have no idea how many late bloomers there could be out there. But my suspicion is there a lot of people who could be in the right circumstances, given the right conditions or whatever, but we just don't know.Sarah: No, I don't know. I don't think many. I can't think of people. There were people who did surprisingly well after I'd worked with them, went off and did other business things and have done very well, and I think... Well, I wonder what they might do next.Henry: Were they the ones saying the out of the box stuff in the meeting or are there other indicators of those?Sarah: There's a girl in particular, I'm thinking about, who worked for me and Leeds who could have gone down a very boring banking corporate route. Actually, she's now running a really interesting small business, and she always... She used to get teased and laughed at because she would sometimes say such off the wall things, used to make a look a bit stupid sometimes, but I always used to be interested in what she'd said, 'cause there was something going on there. So I would think about her. I'm trying to think. So later life, when I've been around NHS boards, there are people there who I think could easily spring off and do something completely different, 'cause working for the NHS is so completely absorbing of your life, your energy and your compassion, but some of them are very interesting people, they wouldn't be doing that job otherwise.Best Victorian Novel?Henry: Finally give us a recommendation for one really good Victorian novel that we might not have read.Sarah: Okay, I'm going to say a part from I've already told you that I love The Way We Live Now, and I love Middlemarch, which I think are the two absolute classic novels. But the one that I read last year, which I'd never heard of and loved, it's by Mrs. Oliphant, and it's called Hester, and it was written, I think in the 1880s, and it's set in a small town, but it's about a woman who saves the Family Bank from going bankrupt. Her father has over extended the bank and run off, and a bit like, It's a Wonderful Life, there's going to be a run on the bank, but Hester goes into the office, it's a small town, and the fact that she's there, she saves the bank and effectively runs it, and then the book starts as the next generation are coming through what's gonna happen. And will she have to do it again? It's a really good book.Henry: Yeah, that sounds a great.Sarah: Hester by Mrs. Oliphant.Henry: I'm going to read that. Well, Sarah, thank you very much.Sarah: Thank you, Henry. It's been very enjoyable.Thanks for reading. If you're enjoying The Common Reader, let your interesting friends know what you think. Or leave a comment at the bottom.If you don't subscribe to The Common Reader, but you enjoy reading whatever's interesting, whenever it was written, sign up now. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.commonreader.co.uk

SponsorsOnPay: https://www.cloudaccountingpodcast.promo/onpayFreshBooks: https://www.cloudaccountingpodcast.promo/freshbooksCanopy: https://www.cloudaccountingpodcast.promo/canopyNeed CPE? Subscribe to the Earmark Accounting Podcast: https://podcast.earmarkcpe.comGet CPE for listening to podcasts with Earmark CPE: https://earmarkcpeShow Notes2:57 – Tether (USDT) stablecoin drops below $1 peghttps://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/12/tether-usdt-stablecoin-drops-below-1-peg.html Bitcoin plunged to its lowest level since December 2020 as a cryptocurrency selloff gathered steamhttps://www.wsj.com/articles/bitcoin-falls-to-26-000-as-crypto-selloff-intensifies-11652340653 10:46 – Crypto investors likely pay less than half the taxes they owehttps://www.accountingtoday.com/articles/crypto-investors-are-likely-paying-less-than-half-the-taxes-they-owe 12:05 – Web3 accounting firm officially launches on Tactic.comhttps://domainnamewire.com/2022/05/09/web3-accounting-firm-officially-launches-on-tactic-com/ 22:59 – KPMG UK Somehow Won't Be Getting a Record Fine From the Financial Reporting Council For Carillion Messhttps://www.goingconcern.com/kpmg-uk-somehow-wont-be-getting-a-record-fine-from-the-frc-for-carillion-mess/ 25:22 – Listener mail from Chris – Thank you! 35:22 – Logan Graf YouTube Video – How Much Money I made In 2021 As A First Year CPA Firm Ownerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIcH2Zv_JyE 38:38 – Listener mail from Tyler – Thank you! 41:20 – Listener mail from Sarah – Thank you! 45:26 – IRS destroyed 30M paper information returns due to backloghttps://www.accountingtoday.com/news/irs-destroyed-30m-paper-information-returns-due-to-backlog Report: IRS Destroyed 30 Million Paper Tax Documentshttps://www.cpapracticeadvisor.com/tax-compliance/news/21267104/report-irs-destroyed-30-million-paper-tax-documents 51:08 – Rippling raises $250M in series D fundinghttps://www.rippling.com/blog/rippling-raises-250m-in-series-d-funding 53:40 – Fueled by the remote work revolution, Deel more than doubles valuation to $12B with new raise – TechCrunchhttps://techcrunch.com/2022/05/11/fueled-by-the-remote-work-revolution-deel-more-than-doubles-valuation-to-12b-with-new-raise/ 55:08 – Deluxe Announces Collaboration with Codat to Embed Accounting Integrations Directly into Deluxe Payroll + HR Solutions Platformhttps://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220510005018/en/Deluxe-Announces-Collaboration-with-Codat-to-Embed-Accounting-Integrations-Directly-into-Deluxe-Payroll-HR-Solutions-Platform 57:18 - Avalara releases tax compliance automation tool for property managershttps://www.accountingtoday.com/news/avalara-releases-tax-compliance-automation-tool-for-property-managers 58:06 – Xero's full year 2022 financial resultshttps://www.xero.com/blog/2022/05/full-year-2022-financial-results/ 59:06 – Millions of Americans May Qualify for Free Broadband Internet Programhttps://www.cpapracticeadvisor.com/tax-compliance/news/21267032/millions-of-americans-may-qualify-for-free-broadband-internet-programGet in TouchThanks for listening and for the great reviews! We appreciate you! Follow and tweet @BlakeTOliver and @DavidLeary. Find us on Facebook and, if you like what you hear, please do us a favor and write a review on iTunes, or Podchaser. Interested in sponsoring the Cloud Accounting Podcast? For details, read the prospectus, and NOW, you can see our smiling faces on Instagram! You can now call us and leave a voicemail, maybe we'll play it on the show. DIAL (202) 695-1040Need Accounting Conference Info? Check out our new website - accountingconferences.comLimited edition shirts, stickers, and other necessitiesTeePublic Store: http://cloudacctpod.link/merchSubscribe Apple Podcasts: http://cloudacctpod.link/ApplePodcasts Podchaser: http://cloudacctpod.link/podchaser Spotify: http://cloudacctpod.link/Spotify Stitcher: http://cloudacctpod.link/Stitcher Overcast: http://cloudacctpod.link/Overcast ClassifiedsFuture Firm: futurefirmaccelerate.comGetW9: getw9.taxAdvisors for Change: https://www.advisorsforchange.comOh My Fraud: A True Crime Podcast for Accountants: ohmyfraud.comWant to get the word out about your newsletter, webinar, party, Facebook group, podcast, e-book, job posting, or that fancy Excel macro you just created? Why not let the listeners of The Cloud Accounting Podcast know by running a classified ad? Hit the link below to get more info.Go here to create your classified ad: https://cloudacctpod.link/RunClassifiedAd Full Transcript Available Upon Request - info@cloudaccountingpodcast.com

Today's conversation with Christina Frei about marketing archetype fits under the P of Partnership. I talk to Christina about seeing marketing as a partnership with their wider community. Christina Frei is a marketing consultant, author, and creator of the Generosity Practice mindset work and the Innate Marketing Genius tools and method. She helps brilliant, mission-based entrepreneurs look smart and get hired. In between, she chases her dog around with a stuffed animal snake, meditates on a pink couch, and obsesses over the perfect cup of green tea, all in a seaside town north of Boston. Her favorite quote: “You either walk inside your story and own it or you stand outside your story and hustle for your worthiness.” - Brene Brown In this episode, you'll learn about your marketing archetype and... The research behind Christina's 5 Marketing Archetypes What these 5 archetypes are My marketing archetype and what it means for me How to shift your mindset about marketing if you feel resistance to it The 'marketing brain and the client-service brain and so much more Christina's Resources   Christina's Website Christina's Marketing Archetype Assessment Marketing for Humans Podcast Connect with Christina on: Facebook YouTube LinkedIn   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. 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Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Christina. So good to see you speak with you for our listeners on the podcast. They won't see you, but I do, which is great. I'm so happy that we could do this interview with you. I know we had some trouble last time. We want to talk about marketing archetypes. So I think the best way is to just jump right into it. So you came up with this framework five marketing archetypes, and I want to ask you what they are, but me do before I do. I'd love to hear how you came up with this and you know, what the research was behind it. And just kinda like why come up with five marketing architects? So tell us a little bit about you and your journey to those archetypes. So I was in  Christina: the thick of doing a field study where I had 40 people in five countries, testing a mindset tool. You know, that I. This will have nothing to do with marketing, but it [00:01:00] turns out that when I heard back from people, several of them were business owners. And I'll just share with you with the mindset tool is it's called the generosity practice. It's something I developed in the early 2007. It basically puts you in a contribution mindset, right? Where you're just on fire to help people, even if you've been rejected. Even if people are being rude, you're just like, wow. I just love helping people seem like a ninja of service. It's awesome. So what I heard back from the, a lot of the business owners was, you know, okay, so this is helping me in my regular life, but as a business owner, I am much more consistent with getting my message out there. I'm not as shy. I'm much more excited to just connect with people in general. So I'm marketing more consistently, just overall, also at the negotiating table when there's a lot of money on the team. I just sit quietly and listen, I'm not there to prove anything. I'm not there to like push for the sale. I just accurately diagnose who's across from me and then offer them what they need. And nine times out of time, it's, it's a yes. [00:02:00] So that was a turning point for me. I realized that I could probably use this work for marketing or for business owners in some way. It didn't know how, so then I actually conducted another field study, which was. Basically coming up with a marketing plan for 40 entrepreneurs. And I used my method, like a deeper level of it to help them focus their message and help them simplify, like just how do you even choose what you're going to do in your marketing? That's a huge decision, right? So I wanted to help them. It was one big test. And what I realized when I did the 40 plans in a row that every single person that went through my process had this beautiful, Y a Y of like, this is how I absolutely love helping humans. And that my mind saw archetypes with that, right? Like one woman who was a real estate agent, she was this master of ceremonies. She always likes to lift the whole thing up and go [00:03:00] big and like, you know, visas, huge presence and she's magnetic. So that was her archetype and we built her messaging and her strategy around that. Another one was more of what I call now and adventure guide somebody who's like, okay, you know, I'm an interior designer and yes, I could show you all the beautiful things, but let's get on a horseback and go have an adventure and I'll tell you what's possible. And that was her energy. So I saw her as an adventure guide. And all these started popping up and it was just fun to like, look at marketing from a little bit more personal depth way. Like this person has a message. This person has a why they love helping people forget their expertise for a second, but they just love helping people in this particular way. And then when you have 40, you can actually look for patterns. And I, you know, it's not a big number, but there were patterns and I found five really strong categories. And those are the categories I'm going to share with you today. Develops an assessment around it. And you know, I've been using them for [00:04:00] six years and they've held like they're sort of a foundation point for what. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah, because on the humane marketing podcast and just kind of in general, people who follow my work, we love anything that is like an assessment or personality quiz or anything like that. It's part of the personal power P because it helps us understand who we are so that we can then mark it from that place of who we are. And it really sounds like that's what you have. Developed another, you know, assessment that we could refer to. Our episode, we're actually featuring it under the P of partnership, because you told me that you really help people see marketing as a partnership with their wider community. I'd love for you to explain a little bit more about that statement. And then we go into the five archetypes.  Christina: So. When somebody there's a few [00:05:00] different ways to approach marketing. Right? I think one of the natural ways is to say to yourself, okay, I need clients. I need to look impressive and I need to somehow stay consistent so that people will be like, oh, I want to work with that life coach. Oh, I want to work with that therapist or whoever is going to be whoever, whatever kind of expert you are. And so that can very quickly become mechanical where you're just like churning. It's like, I just got to do this message and you're not really in it. You're just sort of pumping it out. And so, and I don't really call that being a partner to your community. What makes you a partner to come to your wider community is when in your messaging and even in your strategy decision, the fact that you might do a podcast rather than an event series. All of that can be infused with your why, like you're showing your care through your message. I'll give you one example. So I'm working with a promotions expert right now. She is somebody who has like [00:06:00] tens of thousands of stuff of like trinket. But like items that you can use for your clients to really stand out and, you know, there's sort of a negative spin on promotional items because a lot of times it's just a bunch of plastic going out to the world. Right? So like, how do you, how do you create your marketing as a partner with your wider community with that kind of business? So we identified her archetype as she's this like comfy couch queen. She's like at this magnetic vibration of like, this is my world's coming visit me also. I love. You know, sitting on a couch, metaphorically or otherwise, and just like getting to the heart of it. Right. And looking at things differently and being curious and like, she could just do that all day long. So we created a message from that we're like, okay, what do you want to say as a partner to your community? Well, I want to say, Hey I want to celebrate all the leaders in my community and at the same time, Share with you, how you can stand out with promotional items so that it's not one big [00:07:00] advertisement. It's like a really helpful, like I'm going to feature leaders while I'm also educating you about the promotional items. So that's her being that comfy couch queen. And then the way she's doing that is a podcast. And it's this kind of community celebration podcast with a little bit of education open in there that all flows from her. Why. And so every single facet of her marketing now shows that, oh my gosh, like she just cares about us. Anyone who listens to it, anyone she gives the link to like, oh, are you struggling with this? Let me help you. I have like a podcast for, I mean, you probably do this all the time, Sarah. Cause you do very specific topics. So I just want to show that like, you can take your why and weave it in to every single thing. And then anytime you're touching out to your community, they feel your. It just needs to start from the beginning.  Sarah: Yeah. I love that. I love this. How you explain the partnership piece because it is, it's kind of like this word. We're like, oh, that sounds like [00:08:00] some legal agreement maybe or something very. Right. And so when you share that way, it's like, oh yeah, I do care for my clients. I do care for my community. And it's in marketing. Well, it's all about sharing that you care and yeah. Walking your talk and it really sounds like your couch queen is, is doing a great job at that. I love that. And then of course, Bringing in my why as well. Right.  Christina: That's right. And I just want to add something else if you, because I think it matters to your audience as far as like, I'm going to call them transformational professionals, right? Like anyone who's really good at what they do and they're changing lives. Right. That's what I call you. So I set the bar high for people like. You know, transformational professionals that you need to change lives when you get out there, right. You need to actually make a difference to people's lives when you're marketing, not just phoning it in and having an accurate message about what you do. It needs to be like, whoa, like [00:09:00] that's compelling. And I just want to know more and that's because you're actually changing lives right out of. Sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to add  Sarah: no, that's great. Yeah. I feel like for, if I draw the parallel, because that's kind of what we're doing, we're both marketers and we're learning from each other. And so if I look at the way I talk about it, this is the world view. I talk about sharing our worldview and yes, that we care about our clients, but that we also care about the bigger picture. So you know, the planet or yet, like you said, changing the world. So. So really showing that it's yes. It's about us and yes, it's about the transaction and the transformation, but it's also about the bigger picture as well. Yeah. So share those five archetypes. So dust. All  Christina: right, let's do it. And then we can have the conversation about yours if you want to, or mine or both. So the first one is nurture. You know, you're a [00:10:00] nurture when you absolutely love making it warm and fuzzy for everyone else. And your deep, why is making it safe for others to fix? That is a nurture adventure guides are the people. And again, I love starting with the dead giveaway. Dead giveaway for adventure guys is you're kind of impatient for people to just go for it already. And so your deep, why is you want to, you see what's possible for other people? They're big goals. And you empower them to get there by going for it yourself. So you're the one who gets people into action. Door openers are those who. Just okay. Dead giveaway here is you have 50 ideas at any given moment that could help people. There's like you have lots of perspectives and your deep, why is there are so many possibilities in perception, just perception, just in how you look at things. So I like to call door openers a diamond mind because they just see things from so many different facets, [00:11:00] a steady presence. A dead giveaway is that you really avoid marketing because you don't like getting out there and being super charismatic. And you think that you should be, that's also a dead giveaway. So your deep, why as a steady presence is you are sure people that they have, what it needs, what it takes to move forward. And you're the one with the resources, expertise, and people to make that happen. You're a celebrator or last category, completely different energy. Dead giveaway is if you're in a boring dry situation, you're like, let's give this some life. This is like Jonathan van ness on queer eye. Are you with me that I don't know if you know who he is, but he's like super flamboyant anyway. So your deep, why is bringing the good life to others? You want to bring the good life to others and you do it with your own natural flair, whether it's humor fun. Design sense, who knows?  Sarah: Right. So kind of bringing beauty and, and yeah, just kind of like [00:12:00] a positive vibe to you. To your audience or to your marketing. Nice. I took some notes. I have them all down. Nurture door opener, steady presence. I'm missing one. Celebrate adventure. Yeah. Adventure guides. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. I took the quiz. Maybe I should have not taken the quiz and then just kind of guessed which one I was. But I did take your assessment. So that's an innate marketing genius forward slash assessment. So our listeners can take it as well. And. Drum roll. I'm a nurturer and a door opener. I was actually ending up with two results, I guess, because the,  Christina: that is common  Sarah: and it's common. Yeah. So  Christina: I'm going to ask you Sarah, which one seems more prominent if there is one towards one? Yeah,  Sarah: I would definitely say the nurture is, is kind of where I [00:13:00] feel like I'm most at home. I do like the. What did you say? The diamond? Yeah, the diamond Ryan's mind. Yeah. That resonates as well. But I do, I call myself the mama bear of the humane marketing circle. So really just image of the mama bear really resonates with me. I feel like, you know, come in, come in, I'll keep you safe and I'll host a space. And, and so that, yeah, that is definitely me, but, but then some of the other ones actually resonate as well. Definitely not the last one to celebrate Tori kind of aspect. That's that's not me. I do have, I do feel like there's a lot of steady presences in the audience, in our listeners. You know, there are people who are like, oh, I just can't be bothered with the marketing should. And so I like what you said about it, and maybe you can repeat that. [00:14:00] Would their role is in marketing.  Christina: Totally. And I'm actually going to be holding a special workshop just for steady presences. For that very reason. I do want to say before I answer that I'm also a nurture with a side of door opener, so on that level and for me, I'm a nurture of great ideas in others. That's how that all kind of comes together. Like if you came up to me after a talk or something and said, oh, I just got off. You know, new perspectives and like, I made it safe for you to go there when I give my talk and then I would just start crying because I'm like, that's my mission. Thank you. Hear you. Yeah. Yeah. So as far as steady presence, One thing that I've noticed is incredibly powerful. Like when I watch a steady presence geek out, like really geek out about something, I have no interest in somehow. And this is just, you know one person saying it, but I've been watching this for years. Each time. There's something riveting about watching a steady presence, go into the [00:15:00] depth of what they know and what they do. Like I watched one guy give a talk about auto and home insurance. It's something that I have no special interest in, but I just couldn't stop watching him and listening. And it was just, why am I suddenly riveted to this particular person? And I've always been interested in that. Like, you know, let's say Sarah, you talk about, you know, purpose and marketing and all kinds of rich juicy topics. But if another person talked about it, who might have a very different why that. Then no one would be interested like that happens all the time. And so that's sort of why I feel like the architects are really helpful because it explains the intangible thing that's happened. Hmm, behind all the messaging. Why am I reverted to you, but not riveted to this other person? Who's basically telling me a similar message, but I just don't feel anything compelling going on over there. So that's what I'm always looking for anyway. So for steady presence it is really [00:16:00] powerful for you to be a pillar. Right. Like, we lean on you to be that steady presence. It's such a gift and you typically have the deep resources, deep expertise, deep network, and all you have to do in your marketing. I'm just going to give you a nugget right now is to go deep into one of those things and then share it with. Right. So if you're some kind of a health and wellness professional, and you're going to a program like a conference and you're learning something, then like you could just share a really juicy deep nugget or an article or whatever that shows the riches and the depth and the deliciousness of what you're learning. And don't worry that we even understand a word of what you're just right. Like it's not that doesn't matter what matters is. You're showing us how much, you know, and that's what brings us two years like, oh my gosh, he just knows so much about our groups. This is crazy. Like, I'll never, I don't need to know about Yara group, but she certainly does. And oh my gosh, I [00:17:00] can't wait to see her because she's just the queen of knowledge. And when you display it that way, it's very powerful. To your audience. I love saying that it's very generous to your audience. Don't worry if we keep up with you. I have an attorney who's like an HR labor law attorney. She sends out these really long, you know, in marketing, you're supposed to keep things short, really long in-depth newsletters and they're gorgeous. And it's just like, oh my gosh, this is so helpful to understand, especially around COVID all the changing labor laws and it really educated her audience. Like this is when you need to pick up the phone and call. And, and the, the message underneath the message is look how much she knows she's on top of it. She's like so helpful. She's a great educator. I want to work with her. So that's one thing is sharing the depth of your stuff and expertise, resources, people. The other thing that's really compelling is if you're involved as a leader in your community, like you're on a board, you're doing a volunteer thing. Like [00:18:00] whatever you do, you're raising money. That even if it has nothing to do with what you actually do in your work share about that, the reason it is compelling for you is that you are a pillar and you're acting like one. It just tells us we can lean on you even more than we already are. And that's why we hire you. I find  Sarah: it so interesting that what you're talking about, I'm sure for a lot of people they're like, but that's not marketing. And that's exactly what we're trying to say, right? It's like, well, actually you need to, in your mind. And I often find like it's a mindset thing, especially for study presences, probably it's a mindset thing because the minute you tell people to do marketing, to market their business, they get into this frozen mode and they feel like I have, I don't know how I don't have anything to say, but when you give them permission, like you just said, well, just share in depth about what it [00:19:00] is, you know, your knowledge, your expertise, then it's like, oh, I can do that. You know, I have lots of things to share it, but it's like this mindset thing that you have to somehow switch on where you are. This is marketing. Believe me, you're doing marketing right there.  Christina: Well, I always ask, you know, are you, do you consider yourself to be a compelling expert of what you do because when you're a compelling expert, that just means that, you know, you're standing out from the crowd you're, you're magnetizing in some way, some way, and you obviously know your stuff. So if you feel like you are being a compelling expert, I mean, sometimes people don't want to be a compelling expert cause it's a little bit it's down the path. I think when not everyone is ready to really stand out like that, I respect that. Right. We are all on our trajectory. But if somebody wants to be that, I say, wouldn't it be fantastic to be that [00:20:00] like, who cares about. How much you hate marketing? I work with tons of people who just like, I hate marketing and but they get past it when they realize how much. How much service they can offer and also how energizing it can be, because here's the other thing, like when you're operating from your, why it's actually energizing. The comfy couch queen is doing her podcast and every single time she does, she's got way more energy to devote to all the rest of her work for that day. That's the kind of marketing I want people to have.  Sarah: Yeah, no, totally. It reminds me, I think I heard you say on another podcast or somewhere you talk about the marketing brain and the client service brain. And I think I love that and people will really get this visual. So what are they? And what's the difference between the two?  Christina: Yeah, so marketing. Is innately expansive. Like you just want to go out and connect out with more and more people. So it's always that can get grabby and greedy and it's like, [00:21:00] oh, I have to do this app. Or I have to do this strategy or like, I'm a marketing professional that helps people with this every single day. And I wrestle with it, like, should I be on clubhouse? Clubhouse has gotten a little quieter now, but like there's always something, you know, doing the Instagram reels or whatever. Everybody's up to pressure, pressure, pressure to just so think about like, from that mind frame, what kind of choices you're gonna. Okay. So that's one, the client, the client service mindset is where you're really in touch with the value, the actual value that you provide your clients. So one way to tune into that is to contemplate five representative clients and just really get curious about the kind of value you provide them. And then. Create your marketing after you've really gotten clear about that. Like, what is it they truly needed from you? Even if they might've said they wanted this over here, when you really dug in and you're like, this is actually what they need. So that's what I'm going to talk about in my marketing. [00:22:00] So to me, those mindsets are worlds apart. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And yet what we often see out there is. Targeted towards the marketing brain, you know, the latest things you need to have and the latest platforms you need to be on all these marketing sheds that we're constantly yeah, kind of. Being invited to look at. And yet if we're in the service brain, we're actually much more in connection and marketing is connection. So we're much more in connection with our ideal clients. That's so true. I want to go back to the nurture and door openers. So once I do the assessment, right, I know, okay, this is my archetype. What does that mean for me? What do I do with this information? How can. Come up with a strategy from those archetypes one or two, whatever it comes out. Christina: Yes. So first of all, assessments are not [00:23:00] perfect. So I just want to put that in there. And one, one thing that it always invite people to do is, you know, you can always sign up to hang out with me for 30 minutes and we can really cause I muscle test people on there and I could do it with you just to double check, but I muscle test to make sure that we've landed on the right one. That's the thing, but I mean, Anyone who's listening to this probably has a lot of exploration of their own intuition. So like intuitive for yourself now that you've heard all five types, right? Like, so that then when you take the assessment, I have created these five love letters or whatever you want to call them about like celebrating what it means to be a nurture and a door opener. And one of those invites you to have like a. You know, what do you even call it? Like a workbook to take the nurture energy and put it into action. Like really start creating messaging out of that place. And also looking at, you know, what's a brand like for nurtures. I think it's been a long time since I put the report together, but I think I said [00:24:00] Airbnb and you know, Airbnb just made. It's very cozy. Like it just makes everybody comfortable, whatever, like some kind of reference like that. So that's another step as far as landing on a strategy, you know, that is the work that I do with clients in my compelling expert program. It's a four-month program. I also have a, because I've been in business for six years doing. I created like a self study course called one voice, one strategy. And that, you know, if you're a self study or not, everybody is you can just go and knock that one out. But let me just share with you how I help people determine their strategy. Like, you know, you're a nurture with a side of door opener. So from the. I also want to know how you naturally connect with people, right? Like, are you the one that loves to get up on stage and wow. People, you know, from while the audience, are you the one that loves small format workshops or you love being on camera or, I mean, there's just like lots of different ways to connect. And what are your business needs? Do you need to grow your [00:25:00] list? Do you need to just, you know, I have several clients. They're doing fine, but they just need a refresh, like they're at a plateau. So, you know, this is a really great, like refueler and that's true for a couple of podcasts, people that I have, like, they're doing fantastic. They're great marketers, but it's like, they're bored. So let's give it some life. And. So business needs and your, your archetype and your, the way that you naturally connect with people. So then I'll, I'll sit down with somebody and we'll chat about it for 90 minutes and really go deep. Like let's because what inevitably happens is there's one. Beautiful way for you to be out in public. That bubbles to the surface, like when I first started doing this, I'm like, I'm just making this up as I go along. I'm just hoping that every client, I have lands on one strategy and I just would sort of sweat and be really nervous with all my first clients, but it worked every time. Mm, every [00:26:00] time. So maybe the most important thing I can impart is that believe that you have a really powerful core strategy, that could be the engine of everything else. That's sort of like part two of my message. It's like, you've got this. Why it's your marketing archetype, but also you have this. Like for me right now it's talks and when it's in person, nothing better than that. Right. So totally excited for things to start opening up again. And then, you know, I would call podcast a sort of subcategory of talks. So, but for some people it's, let's do, you know, an event series and have a bunch of gatherings that are strategic and it just depends. And maybe it's time for you to write your book. That's another. You know, and by the way, I cannot wait to read your mark, your your marketing book. Like I'm like I, because you and I are so similar in our approach and I have not written my marketing book yet. I wrote my mindset book, but not my marketing books. So I'm like, oh my gosh, I totally have to.[00:27:00]  Sarah: Thank you. Yeah, it is really amazing. I was just going to say before you said that comment about the book and how we're similar. It's amazing. What you are talking about, I'm talking about in the, in the frame of the marketing superpower, the gentle marketing superpower, it's that kind of overlap between yes. Your people, what you your personal preference and then the, the, the connection, where do you want to hang out? Right. And it. It really gives you the permission to do what feels good to you. I think that is the biggest takeaway from all of this to do what feels good and not to follow all the guru's latest strategy or what they say they have, you have to do. Right. And, and, and, and, and I think that is just so. Powerful, but it's also so such a big relief. When you can say, I can just focus on one [00:28:00] thing that I'm already good at and that I can get better and better at it in that will be enough. I think there's just a sister of big relief. And  Christina: another, another caveat to that. Yes. It's something you're good at, but I also try to give my clients that edge. Right. Like the, the thing that's gonna push them. Right. So, you know, I worked with a life coach who she's like, well, I used to help other speakers with their things. And I'm like, honey, it's time for you to be a speaker. Like she kept saying those people are the speakers. And I just knew. Just from, you know, working deeply with her, it's your turn. And that was you wouldn't say, oh, that's my strength. And I'm great at it, but it was her comfort edge and she knocked it out of the park. So that's, that's another thing, like, I think that keeps us interested. Right. You know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna make it sound like it's another full-time job. This is the kind of strategy where like you give a lot of, you give a lot of love in the beginning just to [00:29:00] develop. You know, the foundation, whether it's your talk or whatever, and then it just pays dividends for years,  Sarah: if you do it right. No, totally. Yeah. This is another thing I want to talk to you about, because I think we have that in common as well. The bringing back the humanity to marketing. So how do you talk about it with your clients? The whole bringing back the human aspect.  Christina: Yeah. And it's like, you have your book marketing, like we're human. My talk, my signature talk is. Marketing for humans, bringing the human back into marketing. You  Sarah: go  Christina: and pretty much it's w it's the conversation you and I are having right now. I actually have it as an intro course called the three secrets to getting great clients by being you. And so the first one is know your, why. The second one is find the solid strategy. That's going to be your engine and your fuel. And then the third one, which I'll say now, cause that's kind of the missing piece is the [00:30:00] mindset piece, the the contribution mindset. So just to be really specific about that, and I've, I've just wrote a book last year, it's called the generosity practice. I didn't think I could actually teach it on paper. It took me so long to really just sit down and knock that out. Like it was a two year process, but anyway this is about. Like okay, Sarah, if right now you were to wander around your town where you live or your beautiful city. Cause I know where you live and you could offer every stranger the most. Just a gift that would delight you. Like I actually remember being in Lozan and there's this place there was, this is like 25 years ago. There was a place that was like a little cafe that had the rich. Almost like putting like hot to the cathedral. I know that really have to climb up there to get it is like, I've never forgotten that it's been so many years since I had that. And I was like, [00:31:00] if I were there and I were you, if I could give that to every stranger that would delight me and probably make them happy. So if I were to ask you what would be your version of that to give to. Sarah: Would it have to be something like tangible or in dental?  Christina: It can be, and it has nothing to do with your real capacity to give it. It's just something in your own heart that would delight you,  Sarah: right? Yeah. If I think about my work it would definitely be this permission piece. I feel like that's the biggest feedback I get from the book is people reading my book, say. Thank you. Thank you for the permission to do marketing. Like it feels good to me. So it would be going around, handing out permission, slip saying you can do it however you want. And that goes beyond marketing. I think it really just goes with business. Be who you are in business.  Christina: Yeah. So just to take that up a notch, like what color would the permission slip be? Sarah: [00:32:00] It would be. Emerald green.  Christina: Ooh. And if you were to put it like in a little cool envelope to make it a little more special, like maybe what would that look like?  Sarah: I think it would be a gold envelope, like really sick paper. Probably like one of these old seals on yeah.  Christina: We're, I'm taking this with you, Sarah is that, you know, you can go into a space of delight. Like you can even just leave the, well, this is my mission in life and I'm here to bring permission to everyone and that's what they love from me. Like there's also a space for you to be like, oh, I get to give people like these cool gold envelopes with like the Emerald green inside, and this is going to be awesome. So if you take that out to the outermost limits, that's the essence of the practice, like what feels good to offer to life today? And it really allows you the space to step back from your. And all of the sheds and all the expectations and just [00:33:00] decide, I would love to be an offering in this way today. And you could, there's so many ways to go at it, right? You can do it. What we just did. You can also think of a person that you love in your life and like what you would love to offer them. You can think about like what you'd love to offer the whole wide world. And then the deepest level of the practice. Let me just quiet my mind. And this is where it just sitting for 10 minutes is really powerful. You just sit for 10 minutes. You imagine yourself in this glorious place that makes you feel connected. And then you just wait in the unknown for like the gift, right? Like the, and my experience of this is things drop in from. I'm going to call it grace, you know, from all of life, from higher intelligence and it just drops and you're there to discern like, is this the gift or not? Yes, no. And that, that discerning process is incredibly important. Anyway, and then you land it and a lot of times people just get tears or either you're just. Oh, my gosh, this is a different day, but [00:34:00] even just for imagining what I could give to all of life today, and then you see yourself offering it as like, oh my God, what was bothering me? I forget, because this is so awesome. Like I got the rest of my day, like handled. So you can feel that that's, that's what I'm talking about. That's what helps you take rejection and not stop this subtitle to my book is 40 days to unstoppable. And that's for a reason because it makes you unstoppable. You're like, I love helping people. So that's the third piece that makes everything more human is to take control of your mindset and choose one of contribution.  Sarah: Yeah. And what did the two others again?  Christina: No, your why? So that's the marketing archetype and then pick the solid strategy. That really is your jam. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. I love that. And it, in a way it's. I love how you wrote the mindset book first, and then maybe that will lead into the, the marketing book, because I F I feel like I feel the same [00:35:00] about the marketing book. It then led to the sales book. Right? I have marketing like we're human and people ask me what. What about selling? And so I had to give myself permission to write the selling, like we're human book first because I thought, well, I'm not a sales person who am I to write that? So, you know, writing a book is a journey and it's a transformation by itself. So I can't wait to you. Find out more about your book and then hopefully you'll write the marketing book too. Christina: It's out there. Just said there, Sarah: this has been amazing. Thank you so much, Christina. We'll make sure that we link to the book and your website and everything in the, in the show notes. Is there any other link you would like? Well, the, the assessment link, maybe just share that one again. So that's  Christina: innate marketing genius.com/assessment. That will get you there in eight. Is I N N a T E [00:36:00] innate  Sarah: genius. I always have one last question. And that is what are you grateful for today or this week? Christina?  Christina: I'm really thankful for a group of people today. It was 32 of them that go into the ocean with me on Wednesdays and Fridays. And it was. 39 degrees in the water this morning. So we're just, we're there together suffering for two minutes and I, I just adore  Sarah: them all 39. That must be like two degrees Celsius or something. Wonderful. Yeah. Thank you so much for spending some time with me. It's been a delight.  Christina: I appreciate being here.

Patrick posted a video clip from Shanghai China, sent to him by a close friend from Shanghai, showing an eerie scene of thousands of people shouting and screaming from frustration and despair because they have been locked down by the Chinese government, and are not allowed to leave their homes, even to get food. The video got more than 5 million views in 48 hours and has been picked up by CNN, ABC and other major news services and has become a global phenomenon. Patrick discusses the urgent plight of these suffering people and encourages our listeners to pray for them. Ed - I had a friend who is from China who is 77. She remembers when the Communist took over. They starved her uncle who was a Catholic Bishop. Caleb 9-Years-old - Should Kids be able to play Dungeons and Dragons? Joel - I work in the space defenses in the Air Force and I don't believe in people from other planets. Why do you think there could be Aliens? I think it was demonic activity. Sarah - Thank you for how you interact with the children on your show. As a Parent I really appreciate it. Anthony - If Jesus can be so humble to wash the feet of His disciples, why doesn't everyone try to humble themselves like Jesus did? Nancy - How do priests who seem to be out of line with the Catholic Church get such a following online without getting reprimanded by the higher ups in the Church? Zane - We recently had twins and my wife is not Catholic. Can I baptize them without the consent of my spouse? Sarah – Can I use Crystals? Kevin - Is it okay to listen to mass instead of the Radio when you are driving? David - If a priest was not correctly baptized as a child would his ordination still be valid? If it is not would that mean that the sacraments he administered also be in valid?

Today I'm talking to Jürgen Strauss about his success in building a community with humane podcasting and networking circles. Jürgen is a transformational marketing strategist, helping businesses build visibility, professional authority and connection with their dream clients. He is passionate about helping businesses achieve exceptional results through innovation and modern human-centred marketing. Jurgen believes marketing seems to have somewhat lost its way in business, becoming less about nurturing relationships and more about chasing the elusive dollar and a bigger slice of the pie. His vision and philosophy is simple - make your marketing human again and make it about creating your client's story, leading them on their exceptional journey with you as their guide. And he has created his unique 12 Step Transformational Marketing Blueprint as a simple, step-by-step way to do exactly that. As a podcast host himself, Jurgen has held meaningful conversations with hundreds of outstanding entrepreneurs from all around the world gaining insight into what makes them ‘tick', what ‘lights them up', why they do what they do and what inspiration and value they can add to the rest of the world. On a more personal note, Jurgen is happily married with two outstanding adult children of whom he is very proud. Jurgen is an avid photographer, and enjoys public speaking, and cycling – a passion he shares with both his “children”. In this episode, you'll learn why income follows impact and... The flywheel system behind Jürgen's podcasting success (500 episodes) Tools and tech he uses How Jürgen develops human relationships with his guests The return on investment of his podcast How he created a community out of his podcast guests he calls networking circles to have deeper conversations And so much more Jürgen's Resources   Jürgen's Website Jürgen's Free Audio Course: InnovaBuzz Podcasting Flywheel Connect with Jürgen on: Instagram Twitter Facebook YouTube LinkedIn   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, you're again. I'm so glad that we get another chance to talk to each other. I was on your podcast recently and now I have you here. I'm so delighted to have you on the humane marketing podcast.  Jürgen: Yeah, it's great to be here. I know. Glad that we're talking again. Sarah.  Sarah: Wonderful. Our topic for today is podcasting as well as kind of a smaller topic after networking circles. But let's start with podcasting because that's really kind of become a big area of expertise for you. Your. Celebrating soon as of this recording are probably when it goes live, you have already celebrated 500 episodes of your own podcasts. So, wow. Congratulations. 500 episodes. That's quite the milestone. When did you start and tell us a little bit about this journey of recording 500 [00:01:00] episodes.  Jürgen: Yeah, it's interesting. When I wrap up my. Show with a guest. And I let them know when we're going to publish in which episode number. And now each time I say, you know, it's episode 490 something. I think we're recording at the moment and are, I always have to hesitate there and think, wow, you know, we've come a long way. So we start. Back in August of 2014. So we've been going for over seven years. Wow. And it started off a mentor of mine, suggested start a podcast as a marketing and positioning exercise. And I'd always been a fan of audio. Books and even way back when I was still on cassette types and CDs and, and I used to travel a lot and I used to have to commute a lot when I was in my corporate roles. And I would [00:02:00] listen in all the. Travel times or waiting at airports and so on. I would listen to audio books and I found that a really great way to absorb a lot of material, much easier and less tiring for me personally, then reading the physical book. When podcasts started, I'd I'd really just dove into the medium, but I always imagined it as something that was, you know, a professional radio studio. You needed all this expensive setup to do a podcast. And. This mentor of mine, he was actually running his own podcast. And he had actually, because he's, his background was in video production. So he did have a proper studio. But he said, no, no, come and have a look. What I've set up. I'll show you. You actually need as a minimum. And when he showed me that, I thought, oh, I can do all that. And I'm a techno geek from way back. So I was sort of excited to get into that. And I used to do [00:03:00] home recordings of my kids playing music onto tape recorders and so on. So I thought, you know, this is really just a digital version of that. So I've got stuff. And immediately reached out to all the people that in my corporate career, all around the world, I had these really good relationships with, but in my small business, no longer had a professional reason to connect with them. With the podcast I had this ready-made. List of guests immediately and that's how it kicked off. And then it just became this flywheel that was almost impossible to, well, it was impossible to stop when people introduced me to others that I should talk to on the podcast. And over time, it evolved into this medium where I had a. One hour masterclass, sometimes one hour, sometimes 45 minutes. Recently this week we had two episodes where we got quite carried away and went for an hour and a half, but [00:04:00] a master class from an expert in their field that I get the privilege to learn from. And then of course, I get to share that with my audience. So it's kind of a win for everybody, right? So that's been the journey. And as I said before, I knew it. I was. At episode 400 and whatever, 490 something we're recording now. And soon we'll have episode 500 and going forward and I'm still enjoying it. You know, we've been consistent over that time, started off with one episode per week. We went to two episodes per week. We. A little while we did three episodes per week because we had so many recordings backed up that guests were waiting six months to have their episode published. And I thought that was a bit too long to let them wait. So we caught up a little bit and, and balanced bringing people on to the recording session and publishing the [00:05:00] episodes. And, and yeah, here we are at nearly at episode five.  Sarah: That's amazing. Yeah. It's just, wow. What a journey. There's so much in what you just shared that I want to dig deeper into. And you started with, you know, kind of the overwhelm of, you know, not knowing how this is going to work out and what kind of tools do you need? I think that's often what we hear for someone who. Podcasting for the first time. So we'll go get into the tools and the tech and all that that we need. What I want to start with is, is what you then shared a little bit, but I want to go deeper into that. Like, what has this podcast done for you? I would say on a business level, And on a personal level, I can tell that you're clearly passionate about it. So it's probably part heart project. But at the same time, you wouldn't be doing it if it was just for your own pleasure. So tell us a little bit more [00:06:00] about what this podcast has done for you. Jürgen: Yeah, well, Probably after about the first 30 or so episodes that this was an amazing networking too, for me to connect me with people all around the world. And as I say, experts in their field, but that were giving me their time, their insights into their area of expertise. As a result, I was able to learn a lot of things that I could bring into my business or. Connect with people that were experts that could help me do something in their business. So often I would, if I needed a particular service that a guest of mine had an, I developed a good relationship with them, I would turn to that guest for that particular service. And also some of my guests have become clients because. We've built that relationship and they've said, Hey, we need [00:07:00] your help in doing something that, that you're good at. So that was kind of a very immediate benefit, but for the longer term now, and I know you want to talk about the networking events and, and things that I've also started doing this. These guests on my podcast have kind of become a community. And I know I can reach out to most of them and get a very quick response to an answer. If I, if I do a question, if I ask questions and I'll get a very quick answer and, you know, insights or feedback on something, and also we've recently won, well, a few of the, a few of the guests we've done some work together in terms of a joint venture type opportunity. So. Lots of different areas where it's, it's benefited second degree. I like to say. So we've started off as podcast host and podcast guests. [00:08:00] That's built a relationship and we've taken that relationship further in the sense of, Hey, there's an opportunity to either work together directly as a client and, and provide. Relationship, or there's an opportunity to work together on a joint project. Or it's just a case of if I need some advice or also guests needing advice, reaching out to me, or I reaching out to them and asking for advice. So there's all of those things of not for me. Over the years. Of course, we've really fine tuned our entire system to produce the podcast from identifying guests, to making them feel comfortable when they come on the show to all the production, after the recording, to the promotion of the show and all of that, people have seen us do that and said, Hey, how do you [00:09:00] do all that? So. Got all these services now and helping other people with their podcasts in various.  Sarah: Okay. Wow. What, what strikes me as very different from your approach is that, you know, usually when you hear people talking about podcasting, it's all about growing your podcast and getting more and more listeners and getting more and more reach. Not once. Have you heard, have I heard you say the word? Listen. So, so it's like, almost like you're focusing I won't say more because you can chime in after, but you focusing a lot of attention on the guests, which probably most people don't do so much. At least I, I haven't seen it. Like I have not felt like, oh, I'm now part of a community whenever I've been guesting on a podcast. Not at all. I can think of it. Maybe a few examples where we [00:10:00] stay in touch. But, but it hasn't felt like, oh you know, you really matter? No, you're just like, you know, one of my guests and now move on to the next one. So I find that a really. Very different strategy and the very humane strategies that it's not, you know, just like, like a factory. Okay. Next guest, next guest, next guest. So that's interesting, but do tell us also kind of about you know, your listeners, w what has developed out of the people listening to, to your pod?  Jürgen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the listeners, I mean the listeners first and foremost why we do the podcast. So, and, and we're very clear, right? From the get, go on, who are the ideal, who are our dream audience. And, and when we work with other people to launch podcasts, that's really where we start. We actually start with themselves with the podcast host and, and their business and why they're doing it and what they hope to get out of it. And then [00:11:00] the listeners for me, Then the next level of course, is the guests, because I say that I want to, I want everybody to have an awesome experience. I know if I do the right preparation and come with the right mindset, that I will have an awesome experience, speaking to somebody like you on your area of expertise. My guests to also have an awesome experience. And if we together have an awesome experience, then it becomes an awesome experience for my listener. I, I'm also very protective of my listeners in that I don't take everyone who like we get lots of pitches now for guests in the early days. Of course, I was very active in bringing guests on board. I still actively bring guests on board. However, The balance now is probably 50 50. So 50% of the guests I've been introduced to, and I invite them to the show, the other 50% pitch me and asked to be on the show. [00:12:00] And for those that send me a request to come on the show, I very carefully filter them. Are they a match for my audience? Are they a match for the kind of topic areas? Cover, which is  Sarah: probably sorry to interrupt. It's probably the same amount of work to kind of filter them as to invite your own guests. I often find because the pitches, quite frankly, there's exceptions. A lot of the pitches are just kind of like random. And so you have to actually do the work and figure out  Jürgen: well yours, your certainly stood out yours was an exceptional one that immediately got my attention and respond for that. Well, no, that's because that's the style I pitched to go on podcasts as well. And that's the style of pitch that I do. It's a personal reach out and I get on video. I show them. What they can expect the. [00:13:00] W I actually have a standard response for people who pitch me and, and it's a templated response, so I'm very anti template, but this is a templated response, but my templates are very special. I think And, and it allows me. So if I get a pitch, I immediately it's like hitting the tennis ball back into the other side of the court, over the net. And so the other person then has to do some more work to convince me that they're a good fit. So the templated responses, thanks for your interest in coming on to our show and we're being much more selective. Because we really want to protect our, our audience and make sure that the guest is a really good fit for the subjects we cover and for the audience. So I say that upfront, I then say, Can you please, the first step is please schedule a short call with me and I give them a calendar link. The second step is send in complete this intake form. So I have an intake form where they're giving me a lot of background [00:14:00] information and some of those questions are why are you a good fit? And have you listen to. An episode. And w w can you give me some feedback on an episode because I've it's kind of that evolved over time. I didn't use to ask that, but I've learned that not everybody listens to the show before they actually come on the show, which I thought was a given. So I kind of put them through that filter. And then I also send them some videos of that I recorded a little while ago about what excites me. Podcast pitch. So I talk about, you know, if somebody sends me a personalized video that gets me excited, I'm immediately attracted to that person. And I immediately will we'll then look at their background and probably reach back out to them to have a conversation. So I turn it around very quickly, like that, to all the pictures I get. And then. The next step of course is then if I have all the information back from the person and [00:15:00] we have that short call, then I can determine very quickly if they're a fit for my audience, if they're a fit for the show and the topics we cover. And also the short call has the benefit of we get to know one another. So when, when we then do get on the show itself, we've already had a conversation. We already know one another, we we've already started a bit of a life.  Sarah: Yeah, exactly. That that was a few people do it, but not everybody has that kind of first, you know, 15 minute calls. So that definitely helps you filter. Probably even though I can imagine for me as an introvert, it would be. Hard to say, you know, actually we're not a good fit. So I'm curious how, how do you do that? But yeah, that,  Jürgen: that was a bit of a challenge at first. If it's really obvious from. The pitch and if the person like some of the pitchers, and I'm sure you've seen these, if [00:16:00] people, when people pitch to you, they say, hi, I'm Juergen and I've done this. And I do that. And I'm an expert in these things. So it's all about me instead of the value that I might be able to bring to you. Audience or to your podcast. So if I get a pitch like that, I'm already very wary. And if then if the topic itself is, it's not really clear to me, it's a good fit. I usually just send back a polite decline. Oh,  Sarah: that's easy. Via email. But what I'm talking about is when you talk to them. Yeah, I  Jürgen: have been, and I made a mistake recently on something and I So who this was because the podcast has been published. And I think we actually made a pretty good show out of it, but it turns out it wasn't all that good of fit. I didn't think it was a good fit to start with, but I saw [00:17:00] some things that perhaps we could explore. So the person came on the short call and I actually said right at the beginning, I'm not sure. Your topic is a good fit for my audience in my show. And, but they'd pitched me. And so I said, but you know, maybe we can explore some areas. So then we came up with some areas to explore and are around sales and are around lessons that we could take from this business, which was way different to anything else I've had. But the lessons we could take from that into our area. I didn't, I probably then on the show, I probably didn't, wasn't strict enough to keep the person on track for the lessons. And I. Yeah, they took the opportunity to talk a lot more about their business. Then, then I really wanted because the business that they were doing was not really relevant to my audience as [00:18:00] yeah. That one, that one got that one got through, but I have said to people. Know, and I just say, look, this is not nothing personal. You're just not a fit. You know, I'm very clear on who my audience is. I'm very clear on the type of content that I want to put in front of them. I want to talk about. And that's just me, that's just what I've chosen to do. And I don't think this is going to work if, if it's a good conversation and you know, Connected with so many people that have podcasts. If I think of somebody who might be a good fit, I'll mention some podcasts to them, or I'll certainly point them to pod match and to match Mica the podcast services. And I say to them, Hey, if you're looking to get on other shows, This might be a suggestion. If I can think of one that that's a good fit. And if you'd like an introduction, I'm happy to make that. Or alternatively, go and look at these websites because [00:19:00] that's where podcasts are looking for guests actually hang out and you can pitch.  Sarah: Let's talk a little bit about those tools and the tech and the systems, all of that stuff, because with two or sometimes even three episodes per week, I'm sure you by now and. I say, you know, it wasn't always like that, but by now you have like the whole system, probably not completely automatized, but a lot of it is just kind of in the flow. Right. So you really just get to do what you love doing, which is the interviews. So tell us a little bit about, you know, the tools you use and the tech. I think you have a team as well. So tell us a bit  Jürgen: about that. Yeah. So I've got a team that edit the show. Do all the promotional material produce all the promotional material that do the invitations upfront from the guests. So I usually [00:20:00] connect with people that might be possible guests. And then if somebody pitches me, it usually comes into my email. So I'll respond to those. But I will also also copy in my, my team and my assistant, who does the scheduling and she will then sort the people she'll do some background research for me and invite the people and do all the scheduling with the scheduling. We've got a calendar system set up that once, once they're booked in, I think it's the same one you use. Once they booked in that will. The appointment in my calendar together with the link to the platform that we record on it, we'll put that into the guests calendar. It's set up to send out reminders a week before, a day before, and then an hour before, just  Sarah: want to chime in and say what I'm using is acuity scheduling. And I think that's what you're using. There's also [00:21:00] Calendly  Jürgen: that's right. This is quite a few of those around, so yeah. That's that's really important because it, it helps a lot in terms. So we actually, my assistant actually suggests three times, so we don't let them book directly at time because that got very out of hand. We did do that for a little while, but that got very out of hand. 'cause I, I found that often I'd do five recordings in a day and that's just too much. I can do three, but at the end of three, I'm I'm exhausted. It's as an introvert, that takes a lot of energy. The, yeah, so the booking, so for the pre. Get to know your calls that I allow the guests to book. So I've got in acuity, I've got times set up where I'll do those. Usually it's one or two days and specific time window that covers international [00:22:00] time zones as well. So that that's a bit of a challenge as well because of the time differences, but that's set up. So. Just send out that link and the guests can pull at their convenience and that just links to my calendar. So I can only see times when I'm free within those windows that I've set. So that's the calendar part. We, we use squad cast to record. Conversations, the squad cast allows you to record locally at each site, and that produces the highest quality audio. If you do that. And it also records and uploads dynamically so that if we get cut off because of an internet issue, for example, in the recording, The conversation up to that stage is recorded and it's uploaded. So we, that just means we have to edit together the various bits. If we reconnect, then I've got various follow-up [00:23:00] systems. So when I complete a recording, I will send an email. I'll personally send an email. Thank you. And the way I do that, now I have a template which basically. Outlines all the steps that happen from there. And in that template, I add a recorded message. That's personalized. And I added a I had the times when we're going to publish that episode, I will also. Send out some social media posts immediately after the episode saying, Hey, just had a fantastic conversation with Sarah. And we talked about these things. Look out for the episode to publish in December or whenever then after that my team then takes over the. Produce the, what I edit the audio they produce shownotes they produce social media posts from that I upload the completed or the [00:24:00] edited thing, or actually that prompt me to do an intro and outro recording. Then they edit it all together, upload that to the hosting platform and we use captivate if. And then yeah, then I schedule all the social media postings and they actually send an email on my behalf that tells the guests and also the people who introduced me to that guest that their episode is published. I follow up with a personalized video message usually about a week after the recording. Just. Kind of keep the relationship going. And then once the episode's published, I make sure that I'm on particularly LinkedIn and commenting on the posts and commenting on other people, interacting on those posts. So engaging in that conversation.  Sarah: Wow. That's really quite the production  Jürgen: and there's [00:25:00] probably a few bits and pieces that.  Sarah: How, how long would you say how much time do you personally spend on each episode?  Jürgen: Yeah, that's a great question. I actually looked at that recently because one of the jaw joint venture initiatives that I mentioned earlier, we were talking about sharing how you can get the time to produce a podcast down to. Two to four hours per episode. I think that's about what I personally spend. So I might I do listen to other podcasts that my guest has been on. And I typically do that while I'm doing something else. So it might be while I'm commuting, it might be while I'm out walking. So I don't necessarily count that time. As, as as work I do for that podcast, then I. Spend a little bit of time [00:26:00] looking at all the material that my team's put together, background research, and thinking about some of the topics that I want to cover. And that typically I'll spend about an hour doing that before the episode. And I've learnt over time that. I don't need in the early days, I would probably spend about four hours and I would script out the episode very carefully. So I'd have his question one. Okay. What, what might Sarah say to question one while she might say this? She might say that well, okay. If she says this, I'll go here. That'll be questioned too. She says this. That'll be questioned too. And I have have this very complex script and of course, most guests didn't say that, or I said something completely different and it threw me right off and then I'd come back in. Well, I've got to try and get this question in. And some of those episodes were really stilted because it was kind of like I was trying to get back on, on this track that I [00:27:00] laid out. And what I've learnt over the years. And I discovered this, even some of my very early episodes that I had a relationship with the person. Cause I knew them from my corporate days and I thought, wow, they have really good episodes because it was just a natural conversation between people that knew one another. And I thought that's what I've got to get to. Even with people that I don't know that well, and. I just take the approach of, okay, let's go five to seven bullet points of things that I touch on. And I was explaining this to a guest this week that we did the recording. I had actually eight bullet points for her and we didn't touch on one of them and we had an hour and a half conversation. So it's really about when I get onto that. As long as I'm, I've read up on the person, I've got some idea about their background. I've got some idea about their expertise. I then trust myself to have a conversation that's interesting and [00:28:00] I'll start off with some things. And depending on, I just have to listen really carefully. And depending on what I say, I will respond to what they say, and we could go off in any direction for me. It's just like, if I meet somebody. And at at some event, whatever it might be, I meet somebody there's no preparation goes into that. It might be a per chance meeting, but if we build a bit of a bond and we find some common interest that could certainly turn into a an hour conversation without any preparation. So that's kind of how I approach it. Now, as I say, I probably do about an hour preparation, not counting. Time. I listened to podcasts. Usually it's done while I'm doing something else. And then after the show, there might be another hour of things I do to wrap up. And then after that, you know, there's five minutes here and there to send a [00:29:00] video. Thank you. Later on. And we have, of course reminder system set up that reminds. Yeah. Now it might be time to touch base with Sarah again, or it's three months since you've connected or touch base with, with this particular guests or the. I just spent five minutes to maybe have a look at their LinkedIn, LinkedIn posts again, to see what what's happening in their world. Hmm.  Sarah: I love that. Follow-up as well. I think that that really feels like that's a big focus for you, the, the, the human relationship and, and I, I love that piece. So it's kind of like, yes, we use system. But we use the systems in order to really deepen the human relationships. Are you exactly that's?  Jürgen: Yeah, that's my whole philosophy around marketing is exactly that, that the systems are there to take care of the mundane and free up [00:30:00] people's time so that we can build those relationships. Yeah to any of those relationships. The  Sarah: other thing I would just also highlight is is that, you know, maybe for some listeners is they're like, oh my God, you know, this is two to four hours of time investment for each episode, plus you have a team. So. And, you know, how, how much time would that mean for, for just a single episode. So that's definitely something to think about. And yes, a podcast is a lot of work and and the other thing that you really show is it needs consistency. You know, how many podcasts do we see that start? Didn't have 20 episodes and then, and then they'd disappear. Could be a thing that you do for like a special event. I have a friend of mine who does a podcast right now because he's launching a book. And so from the get-go it's like, well, I do this about the book and it's part of that book launch. So, so [00:31:00] that's fine. But if you're starting a podcast and then, you know, just kind of. Wayne's out after 15 episodes then that's probably not the goal. Yeah. The other thing I wanted to go ahead.  Jürgen: Yeah. Sorry. It kinda comes back to what, what the purpose of the podcast is. And, and the book launch is a great example because I think a podcast is a really great way to enhance a book launch and. Help grow book sales, particularly at the beginning. And one of the beauties of that is that in terms of content, the book author already has the content, right. They've written the book, so you can reuse that content. So all the research that I do is about understanding. The guests that I'm bringing on, understanding their business, what drives them and getting to know them a little bit. So if you're doing a solo podcast, it's about preparing the content [00:32:00] that you're going to present. And if you've written a book, you've got the content you've done that work. So really the podcast itself is, is. The preparation part is already done in writing the book. So it's really more about, okay, how do I repurpose that? And then of course, afterwards, there's quite a bit of work in production and promotion of the podcast. The good news for that is, as you said, there's a lot of podcasts out there that kind of fade out after I think seven to 12 or 13 episodes is the pod fade period where people. Get frustrated because they're not getting immediate results from it. And also they starting to realize, Hey, this is actually quite a bit of work and yeah. And, but the good news is if you're, if podcasting is for you. And you really want to do it and you're consistent and you stay at it. You can build systems around it [00:33:00] to make it a lot easier over time and you will stand out because there's, I think there's about. Melian active podcasts around now at the moment, whereas there's 600 billion or more bloke blogs out there. And yet people put a lot of effort into writing blogs, thinking that a blog is going to. Mike them stand out in the world. Whereas if it's more, it's so  Sarah: different to hear you then to just read you all the time. Right. So that relationship really develops in a different way. Two things I want to say. And then I want to talk about those networking circles, but the first thing is I think w here we're a lot about giving ourselves permission as well to do it our way. So just because people listen to you who have, you know, in seven years have developed these systems and I are now really proficient at it. No reason to start out [00:34:00] small and say, well, you know, let me start with one episode every two weeks. I think what's, what's more important is the consistency than the actual quantity. So I want to give our listeners permission to say, Yeah, I just want to start building these relationships and maybe the purpose is not so much to get, you know, thousands of listeners, but to have a reason to people, to get people, to come to you and talk about a topic. So that's  Jürgen: absolutely, and permission. The most important thing is who, who is the audience you want to get in front of? Who's the audience that you have a message for that you can make a difference in their world. And if you get in front of that audience and then have that consistency that you mentioned, Sarah. And Mike, the expectation clear up front. So you could start off a podcast and say, this is going to be monthly. We're going to publish [00:35:00] on this particular day of every month. And here's what each episode will contain. So look out for it and tell people how they can follow the podcast or subscribe to it. And then. That's and then you just organically grow your audience. From there. You encourage people to leave reviews. You encourage people to share it with other like-minded people that it could help and consistency and adding value is, is the.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And also the letting go maybe of this idea to have the perfect show at the very beginning. So I had to smile when you said how you prepared your questions, because that's another thing that comes with experience to not make it sound like an interview. So, you know, kind of getting just into this flow like you now, I only have a couple of bullet points that I know that. Want to address. And then every now and then my eyes go down because I have [00:36:00] to look, oh, where are we heading that? But other than that, it really is just kind of this, this flow, but it wasn't always like that. I, you know, I have, we've made a,  Jürgen: we've made a real conscious decision to avoid the use of the word interview. I say, in fact, all the documentation, I think I've gotten rid of all of it. Although, you know, there were a few places where it kind of stayed. Was there, but I think we've gotten rid of it in all of our documentation, all of the emails that we send out in our sequences to remind people when they come on all of the platforms that we use, where, you know, the reminders go out through acuity and that everything has been changed to our conversation will be recorded. So I talk about it as a conversation and to me, Changing my mindset around this is just a conversation and yes, of course. I'm going to ask questions and yes, of course. I'm going to follow up questions with, oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about that or [00:37:00] that's interesting. Why do you say that? Those kinds of things, but it's not a scripted process. It's, it's a conversation.  Sarah: I think. One of the things that I noticed when I listened to podcasts that are probably in the beginning stages is when they say you know, next question, because actually that's not how you talk in a conversation. You don't say I'm going to ask you the next question. So maybe that's something. Kind of also take out of your vocabulary. You don't need to say, you know, let me ask, well, you can say, let me ask you this or something like that, but, but it doesn't have to be announced as the next question.  Jürgen: That's right. Well, there's a, there's a real funny one, which I know I've had. Quite a few times where people say, can I ask you a question? And my normal response is, well, you just did. [00:38:00]  Sarah: That's true. All right. Well, let's use these last five minutes to talk about the, the networking circles. So that's where you take the relationship even to a further level with your guests. Tell us about that.  Jürgen: Yeah, that's right. Well, well, my friend Qur'an ninja one. Runs these networking dinners. And so he gets together a group of like-minded people, a small group in a dinner setting and facilitates conversations that go deeper than the traditional networking event where. You meet somebody and, oh, hello, I'm Juergen. What do you do? And they say, what do you do? And you exchange business cards and then you get home and you throw out all the business cards into the rubbish bin. Cause you, cause none of, none of those people are the businesses that they're in. That's not what you're looking for right then and there. So it's kind of a bit of a waste of time. The, [00:39:00] his. Facilitated meetings were actually much deeper conversations about sort of meaningful things. So I took this when, when we when we were in the early stage of the, of the pandemic and there were lockdowns and everybody was getting on zoom and I thought, how can we make these zoom meetings more interesting? And it coincides. With the time when we had a episode, episode two 50, I think it might've been where I decided what I'm going to just bring people together on zoom and bring former guests together on zoom to celebrate 250 episodes. And I'll kind of run this event. Like those networking dinners that, that Qur'an runs and. So I did that and I used the zoom breakout rooms. So I kind of set the stage top people. We're going to have some deep and meaningful [00:40:00] conversations and it was a safe space. And if you're not comfortable going deep and. Be prepared to be vulnerable, then now's a good time to leave. And everybody got really excited and said, no, no, we're here. We're on board. So I start off with breakout rooms of two people. And I asked a simple question, like, what's got you excited right now. And people have two minutes to say that now, depending on how. Much detailed. I want to go into they'll share something. And then when they come back into the main room, I then asked for volunteers to share what they've learnt about others. And it kind of creates a real dynamic atmosphere and everybody feels part of this big you know, feels this connection. And then we. Send them off to a second breakout of one-to-one. And I usually ask a deeper question there of what's the [00:41:00] limit. Something like what's a limiting belief that you've ever come. And how did you overcome it? Is one that I've used. And so that requires people to get a little bit vulnerable and then. In, we did three more rounds and I put people in groups of three or four at that point and ask some more questions like that and then bring people back into the room. And I have music going when they come back into the room and I'm usually there dancing to the music. So it's kind of a fun party atmosphere. And I thought I did that because. At the trigger point was this celebration of over milestone podcast event. And then everybody had so much fun people and I encourage people then afterwards to say, okay, you've learned something about other people. Connect with one another outside this event and continue the conversations. And out of that people have gone on podcasts. Podcast [00:42:00] hosts have met potential guests. And so they've, those people have come on as a guest in their podcasts that I didn't know, one another beforehand. I know that there was. People that actually went on and did business with one and other out of that very first event. So it kind of starts off with having meaningful conversations between people. Trigger some relationships. And of course not everybody, not every conversation led to an ongoing relationship, but those where people felt, Hey, there's a connection here. They've went on to build that relationship. And I know some of the people that were on that early event are now running those events themselves as well. And I've been a participant in those events too. So it's a lot of fun being a participant as well, but it's kind of an interesting way. To use some of the technology that's available in zoom to help people just break through that, or what do you do and give us your business [00:43:00] card to actually get to know one another at a human. Sarah: Yeah, I love that so much. And, and I was just on a, on a conference recently last week where we had that kind of setup and the idea was to meet each other in small breakout rooms and not use our job titles to say, tell the other person who we are. And it was a really difficult concept for people to understand. And so I just put in the chat. Networking like we're human cause that's really, the idea is like, well, what if you didn't have a job? You know what, if you didn't have a job title, who are you as a human being? And so a lot of that we also do in the humane marketing circle. It's just like, you know, we show up as human beings, but it's true that we have. Kind of been brainwashed to these networking events. And so we always feel like we have to put on a show. And so I love what you're doing also [00:44:00] with this concept of bringing the guests together. I think that is just so, so smart. And, and, and, and I think it helps you. Kind of slow down the process, you know really just changing the focus on the relationships and not just, like I said before this factory of, of guests and one after the other. So. Beautiful. I, yeah. And, and I just received your email about the 500 networking invitation. So I can't wait. Yeah. I'm not  Jürgen: sure that's going to be a networking one. I haven't actually worked out exactly what we're going to do there, but the idea for that is that I have a conversation with a group of people on episode 500 and, and I've decided it's probably going to be. Three or four parts. So three or four episode, five hundreds because of the number of people that, that I probably want to [00:45:00] bring on. And I I just, I, I will need to plan how to run this with perhaps eight to 10 people together on a podcast. Yeah. Like a panel. And I, when I say. Do standard questions. I do actually have five questions that I ask every guest at the end of our conversation, or sort of as we wrap up the conversation, there's a, what I call the buzz, which is an innovation round. And there's five questions that I ask every guest. And I'm thinking of maybe taking a couple of those questions and going deeper with each guest in kind of a panel discussion.  Sarah: Wonderful. Can't wait. Well, we're getting to that part of the show here too. And, and, and I always ask myself kind of my guests, a personal question, but before that, I would love for you to tell people where they can find you and find out more about your work and your podcast and all of that. Good.  Jürgen: Yeah. [00:46:00] Well, if you go to my website, Nova biz.com dot a U R I N N O V a B I Z or Z for the American speaking people. The you'll find the podcast there as well as the other, the other information about our business and on the pages, you'll see a little. When normally is a chat bot, but it's actually me on video with a welcome message. And you can respond to me with your own video or an audio message, or just a normal text message. So the idea of that is it's not a chat bot robot. It's me inviting a conversation. So I'd love you to let me know that you heard me on Sara's podcast. What you liked about it and also any feedback? Yeah. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. [00:47:00] Like that invitation. Well, this has been delightful. Thank you so much for taking the time. My last question and this time, it is a question is what are you grateful for today, your again, or, or this week?  Jürgen: Well, there's lots of things that I'm grateful for them and I'm healthy. I've. We are coming out of the extended lockdowns here in Australia from COVID. So recently. I was able to visit my 93 year old father and celebrate his birthday, his 93rd birthday. And I hadn't seen him in person for six months. I was also able to visit my daughter in Melbourne. So you know, we we'd had locked downs previously. We couldn't go that far. So I was able to visit her and go out bike riding with her, which we love to do together. So I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for my wonderful wife here. And of course we were together all through the lockdown. So that was good. And yeah, and just all these wonderful [00:48:00] guests that I have on my podcast that, and all these connections and opportunities to come on. Other people's podcasts like this.  Sarah: Thank you so much. I love talking to you and we'll do it again, even without a podcast interview. Thank you so much. You're going to take care.  Jürgen: Thanks Sarah.

Fractional Integrator, Casey Gromer, joins me today to have a conversation on the difference between mission, vision and passion. Casey is a 20-year business and marketing expert. As an MBA (and mom to littles), she is widely regarded as a go-to source for visionary women entrepreneurs who dream of building businesses to run without them. She is passionate about creating a more equitable landscape for women in business and working to remove common barriers that hold them back. Casey hosts Female Founders Breaking Boundaries, encouraging women to forgo stale, inflexible business advice and adopt more workable ways of running their business while still achieving success. As founder and Fractional Integrator at SHE-Suite Boutique, Casey currently serves women entrepreneurs in an advisory role. Under her leadership, clients have scaled their businesses while working less and spending more time doing things they love. The industries she's supported include retail, e-commerce, service businesses, and manufacturing. In this episode, you'll learn about the difference between mission, vision and passion, and...   the big words like vision , passion and mission and how they are all different how to work towards your vision where goals come in how to bring the big vision into the marketing Casey's book 'A Fresh Wave of Marketing' and much more Casey's Resources   Casey's Website Download Casey's Company Persona - Purpose, Focus, And Values Template Female Founders Breaking Boundaries Podcast Connect with Casey on: LinkedIn Facebook   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] Hi, Casey. Good to speak to you today. I'm looking forward to our conversation after the conversation. We just,  Casey: sometimes those initial conversations are the most interesting. Sometimes I'm like, I wish we would have hit record.  Sarah: Exactly. We need to kind of do a, you know, bonus conversation. Yeah. [00:06:00] Release that after. But yeah, today we're going to be talking about. Difference between vision and passion. You kind of made this, your expertise in a way and help you know, female business owners with that  Casey: bigger vision. And,  Sarah: and so, yeah, I want to start right there because it does, those are two big words that we  Casey: hear a lot. Sarah: But in fact, maybe we haven't actually stopped to think about, well, what do they mean? And what's the difference between the two. So can you enlighten us?  Casey: What's the difference? Yeah. Okay. Well, so first of all, The work I do. We talk a lot about working with a visionary business owners and for anyone who has not heard this term, I'm, what's called a fractional integrator and a fractional integrator comes into a business. With the business owner or the visionary business owner. And our job is [00:07:00] to take someone who is a very big picture idea person with lots of passion. And I, and I like a forward thinking, you know, we're tagging creative personality types, those people, traditionally, aren't very organized and they're not they're a little bit scattered and they are amazing. And what I started to notice is that I was taking calls from people who would say they wanted to work with an integrator. And so we would start diving into the work, which one of the first things that we do when we start working together is to create what's called the business blueprint. And part of that business blueprint is articulating your vision, your mission and your values. And one of the things I recognized. In some cases, we were having a really hard time getting to an actual vision. And so I noticed that there is a difference [00:08:00] in some cases between an actual vision and just having a passion for something. And so. One of the differences between having a vision and having a passion is that a vision is typically something, first of all, is forward thinking, right? So you're looking out into the future at something. And when you have a vision, one of the ways, you know, it's a vision is your. I see the future. And you're able to tangibly describe what that future looks like after you are successful. So a vision traditionally involves changing something. So maybe we're changing. You know, we're changing our customers or we're changing our community. We're changing the world, the planet, whatever we're making some sort of change to the way. Things operate. And a lot of times that vision might have some sort of social responsibility attached to it or making people's lives easier. And in any case, that's what a vision is. [00:09:00] Now. When someone comes to me, And has a hard time articulating what that future vision looks like. That's when I know we have a passion and a passion can be something that we feel really strongly about, and we just maybe don't really know or understand where we want that to go. And that doesn't mean it's bad, or you don't have a business. It just means that your approach to the business is a little bit different. Versus, you know, if we have a vision and we, we definitely have like, there's an end goal in sight. And as the integrator, we're D we're defining what those steps are to achieving that end goal. And that's how we operate. And with a passion, we don't necessarily, we still have goals a little bit, but they're less aligned to what the future looks like. I'm more aligned to what it looks like achieving this passion that you have. I  Sarah: love that. So it's really like vision is the big picture, future oriented and kind of tied to maybe something external of your [00:10:00] business, not just internal or personal. Absolutely. And then the passion. Yeah. You know what we usually understand on their passion. It's just something that you're very passionate about. And it doesn't mean that it's attached to the future or, or to something external that, and then you also brought in this other word, which is mission. And I think I might've been confusing vision with missions. It what's the difference between vision and mission and how.  Casey: You know, and they're so closely tied together that it can I do that even still sometimes. And you'll know a vision because there is a future state. So when you're articulating a vision, you're describing like, you're, you're like what's a movie I saw recently where it was a future movie, but you're basically describing the state of the world as it will be. Yeah, 10 years from now or 20 [00:11:00] years from now, or a hundred years from now, or whenever, you know, that vision plays out. And a mission is more of, this is the focus that my company has to achieve that vision. And if I can use an example of really. I'll use my own vision. For example, we are very centered on lifting up women in leadership. We want more women leading companies. We want more women leading countries. We want more voices in that place of leadership. And so one of the one of the things I wrote down in my. My description of what my future would look like is hello, Madam president. So in the United States, we have never had a woman leading the country or a woman president. And so if you think about your mission and achieving that, My company, she, sweet boutique is not directly going to be responsible for putting a woman in the president's seat. Like that's not our focus. However, the [00:12:00] work that we are doing is going to change the way that people view women and women's voices. So what is our focus going to be to make that happen? And so our focus is really on leading. Women owned businesses. And so that is how we are going to be lifting up women's voices in leadership and making it more normalized to see a woman leading a seven or eight figure business.  Sarah: I love that. Yeah. That, that makes a lot of sense. That kind of difference. I can't guarantee that I won't mix them up again, but it feels like I understood passion really well. Mission and vision. Yeah. I see the future in the vision because that, you know, it's kind of in the word where the mission is like, well, what am I going to do? It's kind of like a more next steps for vision  Casey: is oriented thing. Yeah. And don't feel bad because you know [00:13:00] what, that still happens to me sometimes too. Cause I'll be talking to a client and I'll have to stop and think. Are we talking like vision? Are we talking mission here? And the most important thing is not that it's like, I mean, there's, there's a lot of gray area here. And I think the most important thing is the purpose of having a mission and vision is to keep everyone, keep you focused and moving in the right direction and keep your team focused and moving in the right direction. So as long as those vision and mission gives your team members a clear sense of here's what we're here to accomplish. And here's how we're going to go about doing that. Then I think, you know, let's not split hairs. That's a cliche term that we use.  Sarah: Talk about that then, because once we have the. Do we need those, you know, typical vision or mission statements that everybody talks about and are these helpful for companies or what's the  Casey: alternative? Yeah. Yes, they are helpful. And I think we [00:14:00] need to, a lot of us need to change the way we're thinking about vision and mission. What I find is a lot of companies articulated vision and mission and they, and they articulate it in a way that is It's like a marketing tool for them. So I I'm, you know, you can probably understand that where, oh, if we have like this vision and mission that people really connect with or, you know, it resonates with them and that's not, I mean, that should be that your secondary motive for creating a vision and mission. So the primary motive is internal based. We, so we use something called the company persona and the company personally. Basically your vision, mission and values, and the importance of having these as creating context for your team members so that they are looking at your business as if it is a person, right. We're trying to create personal, personalized, or personified qualities in the business. So that as [00:15:00] we're thinking. About making decisions or talking on behalf of the company, we're thinking in our head, like, who is this company as a person? What do they think? What do they believe? What do they value? How do they respond? How do they act? How do they interact? And so it, it really brings the company to life and that's the importance of having a vision and a mission is you're, you're changing from thinking. As a company or thinking in terms of intangible thinking, in terms of things like profits or money or dollars or sales or customers in your thinking, like what, you know, like what is this person and what is our goal in life? Yeah.  Sarah: And I'm sure that applies, even if you're a one person company, it just becomes much more personal. Yes. Yeah. And another big  Casey: word that just came up for me is purpose. [00:16:00] Yeah.  Sarah: That probably all fits in there. Where else?  Casey: Well, right. Yeah. We use purpose and vision interchangeably. So sometimes I use purpose because I think it's easy. Like it's a word that we use more often and we understand it, like in our minds, A lot of sense, like, oh, I know what purpose is, purpose means this. And so if you think of your vision in terms of this is your purpose in life, then it makes a lot more sense. And the same thing goes for mission is we use, sometimes we use mission and focus. Interchangeably. So once you know your purpose, then what is your company's focus? Like how are you narrowing down what it is you're delivering to the customer or to the audience that is kind of leading you or contributing to the achievement of your purpose in some way.  Sarah: So before you mentioned this kind of gimmicky approach to vision and mission statements where you just [00:17:00] put it out on your website and then you're like, okay, check. We did that. And so now are, you know, website visitors can see that we have such a good vision and mission. And so you would actually not recommend to have it on  Casey: the website at all, or what. No for sure. I mean, for sure you can put it on the website. I'm just suggesting that. Instead of looking at your vision and mission statement through the lens of how are people going to perceive me? You look at it through the lens of what are we looking to achieve. So do that first, right? Because you have to be able to articulate to your teams and to your people. Okay. what is my purpose here? What am I doing before? You're going out to customers. And the other reason that this is really important is that your, what you're putting out to your customers has to align with what you're doing as a team. So if your vision says [00:18:00] one thing, but your actions. Don't align with what that vision is. There's a big disconnect and you're actually going to create a bad experience for customers. And, you know, they're going to be like, well, this isn't, this, isn't what the company is telling me about themselves. And so I don't trust them anymore. Yeah. The  Sarah: same thing applies to like these sustainability messages. Everybody is kind of just throwing on their websites now without actually, you know, having a team dedicated to it or doing the real work and being at home.  Casey: Held accountable as well. So you can't do that. Otherwise it  Sarah: just doesn't, you know,  Casey: you  Sarah: can't even, even for me now, this phrase, you know, we want to change the world. I'm like, yeah.  Casey: We all do, but show  Sarah: me, what are you doing? You know, I think it's going to be in the [00:19:00] next 10 years. I think it's going to be much more people want to actually see actions, not just here, beautiful phrases. Right. And  Casey: that's where that deeper  Sarah: work is, is  Casey: required. Right. You know, and that's one of the differences in how, how I approach this pro. This tool, this process and how a lot of companies are approaching it. And one of the things I mentioned earlier is context, and you can have a vision and mission, right? And it can be a great vision and mission, but there has to be used some context behind it, because if you've ever gone to a company's website or if you've ever worked for another company and they're like, Hey, okay, we've checked the box. Here's our vision. And you look at that vision and, and you think to yourself, That's awesome. I have no idea what that means. So it's missing a lot of context. And so the company, you, even if it's just you working with yourself, are you working with a couple of [00:20:00] people? That context is really important because we have to understand the story behind. What does this mean? Why is this important? How does this look in. Operation. Right. And so that's where the vision, mission and values work really hard together because the vision articulate the future, the mission describes what you're doing to contribute to the achievement of that vision. And the values is here's how we are living this out day to day. So you mentioned, you know, the sustain stainable company. I had a very similar situation with a client where we had these sustainability values, but yet when we're going to make decisions about the business, we weren't prioritizing, like when a team member would prioritize something sustainable, it would get shot down because of cost or, you know, implementation or execution. And that's great. And we have to find a different way to contextualize [00:21:00] what we mean by sustainability. Let's spell it. What does sustainability mean to us and how are we able to deliver on that versus just saying we're going to deliver. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. So true. You have to first understand it before you can make it your vision or your mission. Right? Because sustainability is one of these terms that we just kind of use left and right. Right.  Casey: Yeah. Everybody has their own definition. So, absolutely. And your values is something that you're in your employees or your team members are going to be using, or you should be using every day to make decisions. Does this decision align with my values? If it doesn't do I need to change my values or do I need to do. My decision.  Sarah: Yeah. So before you mentioned the, that you're working with people who are not the, you know, how did you call  Casey: it integrators? Yeah. Yeah. So they're more like, okay,  Sarah: they have the big [00:22:00] passion. Of course they have probably the vision.  Casey: And so how you help them with the  Sarah: vision and the, and the values, the mission. Do you still work with a business plan or where does it then become. Programmatic and let's roll our sleeves back  Casey: to work. Yeah. Yes. So the very first thing is, you know, that vision, mission values and the, we toss some other things in there, like knowing who your target market is and understanding your value proposition. Those are all very important too. And that's all great. And we need to have that. And then kind of where the breakdown is just like, how do we turn this into. Reality, how do we make stuff happen? And so that's where the business plan comes in and the vision is an integral part to that because the vision is like, okay, if this, if 10 years from now, we're looking at, you know, 50% less carbon emissions, I'm making up a vision statement. Now, [00:23:00] 50% less carbon emissions. And we're looking at biodegradable plastics. And we're looking at whatever that, you know, vision is that that looks like. The plan is. What's the first thing, what's the first thing we need to do to make that happen. And so you break that down into, you know, you're not going to go from zero to 10 years from now in a quarter. So we break it down into an annual goal or an annual plan and then a quarterly plan. And, and the hardest part I think is just figuring out what those next small steps are to help you get closer to. That fishing that's where the business plan comes in. Yeah.  Sarah: And it sounds like the small steps we call them goals. Right. And sometimes we confuse our goal with our vision. Yeah. It's again, it's not the same. The goals are really this small and probably more pragmatic steps. It's like, here's [00:24:00] what we need to, and oftentimes what we use there as the smart, you know, they have to be measured. Somehow so that we can actually say, yeah, we achieved this  Casey: goal  Sarah: or not where the vision, well, right now we don't know if we're going to achieve this vision because it's  Casey: in the future. Right. Great. And for, and for some business owners, especially if you're a very visionary business owner, That, that is the hard part. I can't see that path. I can see the future, but I can't see how I'm getting there. And that's when it's kind of helpful to partner with somebody who sees the world a little bit differently than you so they can say, all right, so here's where you need to focus next. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. I think, I can't remember the, the, the book where the. He, I think it's an author who talks about this difference between the visionary and the integrator.  Casey: There's a  Sarah: [00:25:00] about that, right? Yeah.  Casey: Well, since you're on video here is it. Yeah.  Sarah: Rocket fuel. Yes. That's  Casey: it? Yeah. Can you just have the awesome, yeah. Yes. This is called rocket fuel and it's got, it's a dual author. It's Gino Wickman, and Mark Winters, and they talk a lot about Their theory is there's actually two people at the helm of a business and not just one and some of the traditional models you're seeing, you know, just one person who's the CEO and then all the people underneath. And I think what Gino, Gino, Wickman and Mark Winters discovered is that a lot of the CEO type people are not. Cut out. That's not their, their zone of genius to lead people and manage companies. There's zone of genius is future thinking big innovation. Yeah. Yes, yes. And those people, as we understand, like Albert Einstein and, you know, some of these other geniuses [00:26:00] is they have these great ideas and they're just not very good at executing them. And so they're suggesting. If that's the type of person that you are. There's two people at the helm of the business and one is the the innovators and then the other person is the get things done, person. And then when you pair them together, it's like yin and yang. And you have like this whole person who is then going to catapult this company into success. Yeah. Yeah. I love  Sarah: that. And that's why if, if we're alone in our business, it's just always helpful to work with a coach who, who sees you from the outside and who can kind of. Maybe you have the vision, and I'm not saying that the coach is going to have the vision for you, but the coach is going to help you get to that vision or have an even bigger vision for you that maybe  Casey: you can't even see. Yes. I was just going to say, you know, for, as a fractional integrator, we work with bigger businesses, [00:27:00] you have teams and if you're a solo person and you're in this kind of visionary, Dilemma of, I have this idea. I'm not sure what to do with it. Next, a coach is the perfect next step to help you break down that vision into here's where you need to focus next kind of kind of a thing. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. Cause I do feel that some, I sometimes work with clients who have. A lot of great ideas. Right. And then oftentimes, because they're also the door, they start telling us too many different things and then we need to really kind of like focus it back. And then I think you mentioned that as well, focus, you know, like what are the, the  Casey: three  Sarah: things that you're going to focus on to get to that vision? Because otherwise you spread  Casey: yourself too thin. Exactly. You won't get there. Yeah. Yeah. And just to be clear, you know, if you are someone who's working by yourself, just know that as you grow and get [00:28:00] bigger and expand those problems, don't actually change. So I think the term is different level, different devils, so it stays the same. So there's a lot of CEOs of companies that have that same struggle that those of us who are a single solo business. Hap so we're all people. Yeah.  Sarah: And on the other hand, so we talked about the coach, but another idea of course, is to get help in the execution. So you work with a, you know, a virtual assistant or you will hire a team member and then they do more of the execution. So you get to have more space to do the big thinking. Yes,  Casey: absolutely. Yeah. For someone who is kind of a innovator or a very, I like to call them creative thinkers because that's really who they are. Some type of assistant, whether it's a virtual assistant or an executive assistant can be an amazing. First hire for you because they are [00:29:00] basically an extension of you only organized. So yeah, that's a definite way to take a step towards getting things done and getting them off your plate. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So there's this question in my head that I keep thinking, well, can you actually have a business without a vision or a vision statement? You know,  Casey: how would that look like? Yeah. And you know what? I can't remember exactly what episode it is, but I have a podcast called female founders, breaking boundaries, and I have an episode on passion. I think it's called passion is not a vision or something like that. And it talks about the difference between passion and vision. And it gives some examples of how you do have, or can have a. Based on passion and not vision. And there's a lot of very successful businesses today who are based on passion and not vision. Not every business's out to change the world, right? Sometimes you're just [00:30:00] capitalizing on an opportunity or you've recognized a gap in the market and you're doing that. And, you know, an example might be. I'm making car parts. I mean, I don't know how many of your listeners make car parts, but you know, it's kind of a straightforward thing. We're going to go to work. We're going to make car parts. We're going to make some money. We're going to pay some employees. Now you could have a vision right. With your business, or you could also just go to work and I'm really passionate about help, you know, making cars last longer. And so that's what we're going to do and that's perfectly fine. And it works. Yeah, it's just the way you structure organized and operate day-to-day is just a little bit different than if you are a vision oriented company. Yeah.  Sarah: I'm glad you say that because, because my Mandalah of humane. It doesn't have vision in it. And so I'm like, oh, but I sometimes call my people. I created a new word called vision  Casey: near. So it's like a [00:31:00]  Sarah: pioneer slash visionary, but there is no vision in the seven PS of humane marketing, but, but the passion, that's where we start and, and, and I think you're right. Some  Casey: people, they  Sarah: will have this vision on top of things and others, they will just find.  Casey: You know, make  Sarah: a business out of the passion or find passion in the business that there is what I, I think you can't, or it wouldn't be very sustainable and much fun to have  Casey: a business without passion, right?  Sarah: Where the vision. Optional and, you know, obviously great have it.  Casey: Yeah. I was reading about your Mandalah and, and I love it. And it's, it's similar to a little infographic I created as well. Yours is, has definitely more spokes on it than mine does. And one of the things you might do. If, you know, at some point, vision does become [00:32:00] important is that the little center spoke you have there, that's where I've put vision. So if you do have a vision, that's really where it goes. It's the central hub of everything that you do. So you know, that's one way to think about it. So  Sarah: for us, the, the center spot is, is, are. Ah, market from within then everything. Yeah,  Casey: it looks that makes a lot of fairs too. I think in both ways, they're very similar because if you think of a vision, it does come from yourself, right. That is your vision. Nobody else has that vision. And that's what makes you the leader of the company is that you were holding that vision and it's, it comes from self. So I love it. I really, really dug for that connection there. That's  Sarah: amazing. I want to quickly, before we start to wrap up also mention your marketing book because, you know,  Casey: Have kind of this background in [00:33:00] marketing  Sarah: and you wrote a book a fresh wave of marketing, an intentional approach to marketing for visionary CEOs. So tell us a little bit about that book and, you know, kind of knowing you now for almost an hour, I can tell that you kind of are part of our people. You think marketing definitely needs to be different, so. Tell us what this fresh wave of  Casey: marketing looks like. Yeah. Okay. So before I kind of switched, focuses to becoming the fractional integrator person I was I was a fractional CMO and. One of the things that was happening to me as I was bringing on clients is that our expectations were not aligned. And so I started out this book, started out as a workbook, really for clients. So I would send this workbook to them so they could kind of get a sense of, this is how we're going to start this work. And when I was done with this [00:34:00] workbook, it was like, I don't know, 25,000, 30,000 words or something. Yeah. I'm thinking to myself, I could probably drop this on Amazon. And so that's how the book came about is everything that we've talked about in this episode today about your vision, mission values. And then, you know, there's some other components of what we call our business blueprint. The target audience. There's even some stuff in there about customer journey, which I know you just recently had an episode on customer journey, but it's all these components of marketing that make your marketing stand out and marketing is about relating to the customer and humanizing that relationship, which is, I think we get along so well. So yeah, you can grab that book off of Amazon and it's kind of a down and dirty. Like get your hands dirty and implement kind of things. So by, after reading the book, you should be able to kind of draft your own vision, mission values, [00:35:00] and get a head, start on, figuring out what kind of marketing. Makes sense for you. Wonderful.  Sarah: Yeah, it's great. This has been absolutely delightful.  Casey: Thank you so  Sarah: much for coming onto this show. Do tell us where people can find you. Yeah. I think you have a free download as well to take this  Casey: further you integrations of Telus all above. Yeah. Yeah, I am so passionate about getting the mission, vision values, right. That I haven't a lot of different places. So in addition to getting a fresh wave of marketing off of Amazon, I'd love for you to come over and visit the podcast at female founders, breaking boundaries. I'm on all the. Podcast platforms. And if you'd like to get a little background or have in writing more of what we talked about today, how to come out with your, you know, your ideal vision, mission, and values and articulate that you can go to our [00:36:00] website@shi-sweetboutique.com backslash humane, and we have, you know, a little worksheet to kind of guide you as you're thinking through your vision, mission values. I love that.  Sarah: Thank you so much. And I actually do want to ask you two more things. If you don't mind what's your vision of the future of business? Like where do you see business change and evolve into over the next 10 years? We're kind of, I feel at this. Kind of fork, you know, I was like, it could even go that way or that way. So  Casey: where do you think it's going to go? I'm like how long is this podcast? I can make a whole episode out of this, so I'll try to keep it really precise. For, for a long time now I've felt that there was this gap in the small business market. You have small business owners who are at a disadvantage. A variety of different reasons, which we won't get into on this podcast, but I've often [00:37:00] felt like this is where the future of our economy is, is in small business and making these small businesses successful as compared to these huge corporate conglomerates. And so I think the future of businesses heading towards ways to. Put more focus on small businesses for a variety of reasons for employees and employee benefits. I think small benefits for small businesses are, you know, going to employ. People people are going to be focused more on enjoying their job, enjoying their work. So whether you're an employee of a small business or a small business owner, people are going to be paying attention to the tr treatment and the work-life balance. And so I think that's kind of the future of small businesses is we're going to start trying to remove some of those obstacles and boundaries for business owners so that, you know, we have more options. People can. Not be required to live in huge cities in order to [00:38:00] get paid money to live life. You know, we're going to start spreading out and I'm doing more at different levels.  Sarah: Yeah, that, that makes so much sense. Also what you just said about the cities. I truly believe that people aren't going to move away from these big, expensive cities and, and that's only possible of course, if there is employment in the smaller cities and towns. Yes. Unless we all do, you know, work from home, but. That might be a future addition or who knows. Maybe it will kind of be part working from home and partly going into the small business, but wouldn't that be wonderful. They would also be less  Casey: traffic, less cars because yeah, we don't need to all be in the big city anymore. Right. And as devastating as this pandemic. Then I think one of the outcomes that we might, you know, be thankful for is that we've, we've always had this opportunity [00:39:00] existed with our technology today and the pandemic sort of forced a lot of us to consider different ways of looking at how we. Are employed or looking at how we run our businesses and now the hard part's over, we've figured that out. And so I think now there'll be more chance or it's going to be easier for us to look at it differently now that we've kind of gotten over the hump of figuring out how to make that work and how to use that technology. Yeah, totally  Sarah: agree. Last question. What are you grateful for today or this  Casey: week? You know, what I am grateful for? I am grateful for technology. So one of the things I talk about on my podcast is how women in many cases, shoulder, so much more mental load, that some of the things that. Easily to other people. We have to work a lot harder for like owning our own business because [00:40:00] I'm a mom and I am grateful for technology and the opportunity to run a small business so that I have the chance to take my boys to boy Scouts after school and to be able to take them to the dentist on Thursday and see. I'm still able to be a mom and run my business at the same time. I like that.  Sarah: Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming onto the show. It's been a pleasure to talk to you.  Casey: Thank you, Sarah.

In this week's episode, we chat with Levi Williams-Clucas, SEO Specialist at StrategiQ, about local SEO and the importance of reputation, reviews and trust. Where to find Levi: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leviwilliamsclucas/ (LinkedIn) https://twitter.com/Femkepants (Twitter) Resources from the episode: https://academy.brightlocal.com/ (BrightLocal Academy) BrightLocal blog https://strategiq.co/strategiq-hub/learn/ (StrategiQ blog) --- Episode Sponsor: This season is sponsored by Screaming Frog. Screaming Frog develop crawling and log file analysis software for the SEO industry, and wanted to support the WTSPodcast as listeners to the show. They've just released version 16 of their SEO Spider software, which includes - improved JavaScript crawling to help you identify dependencies, such as JavaScript content and links, automated crawl reports for Data Studio integration, advanced search and filtering, and the app is now available in Spanish, French, German and Italian. You can check out the latest version at Screaming Frog's website (screamingfrog.co.uk). Where to find Screaming Frog: https://www.screamingfrog.co.uk/ (Website) https://www.linkedin.com/company/screaming-frog/ (LinkedIn) https://twitter.com/screamingfrog (Twitter) https://www.youtube.com/c/ScreamingFrogSEO (YouTube) https://www.facebook.com/screamingfrog/ (Facebook) --- Episode Transcript: Sarah: Hello, and a very warm welcome to the Women in Tech SEO Podcast. I am Sarah McDowell, an SEO content executive, and I will be your host for today. Joining me I have the wonderful Levi Williams-Clucas, who is an SEO specialist at StrategiQ, and they will be talking to us today about Local SEO. Welcome to the show, Levi. Levi: Hello, hello. Thank you for having me. Sarah: Thank you for giving up your time and agreeing to spend Wednesday afternoon with me. Have you had a good day? Levi: I've had a great day. Yes, it's been nice and sunny outside, and I've been able to pet my cats today, so very happy. Sarah: Sounds like a wonderful, wonderful Wednesday. To kick things off, I want to ask you how you got into this wonderful world of SEO, and how you ended up being an SEO specialist at the agency StrategiQ? Levi: I've always been into marketing, and I did my degree in marketing and was ready to go as soon as I came out of uni. It didn't work that way and I ended up having a bunch of random temp jobs, and then got my first proper agency job at StrategiQ as a Digital PR. I decided it wasn't for me and thankfully my manager noticed an interest in me for SEO and suggested it and shout out to Chris Green if anybody knows him. He suggested, "Would you like to move into SEO?" I thought, "Yes, I'm going to give that a crack." I've been happy as a pig in the mud ever since really. It's my calling. Sarah: I love that saying "Happy as a pig in mud," I've not heard that one before. Levi: Oh, that's one of my favorites. Sarah: That's awesome that within your agency, then someone who worked with you was able to identify a whole area that you would be interested in. I think that's really cool. Levi: Yes. Sarah: Cool. What one bit of advice would you give other women starting out in the industry? Levi: I had to go think about this, because there's a lot of things that I think I would like to give as advice to women in the industry, but I think my main one is not to change who you are or what you believe in, to fit into something that other people say you should be or should believe in. How you look, sound, how you identify, really doesn't have any impact on how good you are at your job, and how well you can learn what you need to do to succeed in your role. You should really remind yourself of that when you feel like you've been treated otherwise, and prove those people wrong. I have, I'm here, I'm covered in tattoos and piercings, and I have a very successful career despite being judged on a regular basis about things like that, so...

In this week's episode, we chat with Kristie Plantinga, Founder of TherapieSEO about how to manage feelings of imposter syndrome. Where to find Kristie: Website: https://www.therapieseo.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/kristie_plant Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/therapieseo Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/therapieseo/ --- Episode Sponsor: This season is sponsored by Screaming Frog. Screaming Frog develop crawling and log file analysis software for the SEO industry, and wanted to support the WTSPodcast as listeners to the show. They have recently added automated crawl overview reports for Data Studio in version 16 of their SEO Spider software. You can use their Data Studio dashboard, but if you have created your own Data Studio dashboard for their crawl reports that you'd like to share with the community, then get in touch with them via support@screamingfrog.co.uk or @screamingfrog on Twitter to be featured. Where to find Screaming Frog: Website - https://www.screamingfrog.co.uk/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/screaming-frog/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/screamingfrog YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/ScreamingFrogSEO Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/screamingfrog/ --- Episode Transcript: Sarah McDowell: Hello, and welcome to the Women in Tech SEO Podcast. I am Sarah McDowell, an SEO content executive and I will be your host for today. Joining me I have Kristie Plantinga, founder of therapy, SEO and we have them talking about imposter syndrome. Hello, Kristie. Kristie Plantinga: Hi, thank you so much for having me. This is so exciting. Sarah: Thank you so much for agreeing to come on and spending your Monday morning for you, isn't it? Kristie: Yes. Sarah: Monday morning with me. Let's dive straight in and my first question to you, Kristie is, can you tell us how you got into SEO in this world? Then how because, obviously, you're the founder of therapy, SEO, congratulations. Kristie: Thank you. Sarah: How did you end up having your own business? Kristie: Yes. I think everyone in SEO, got started in their unique way. I started more from a writing background, I was pursuing a master's in written communication, which was largely a technical SEO writing Pro-- or sorry, Technical Writing Program and that wasn't for me, I just have more of a creative side. I knew that wasn't going to be a good fit for me. I started learning more about user experience and marketing and I was looking at the job market with a communications degree, which could be tougher to find an entry into the job market but I stumbled upon SEO. I started teaching myself a lot of things as I think many of us do. I always thought it would be so cool if I could work in this but my only qualification is this. I knew how to build websites, and I had this degree. I was lucky enough to get hired by an SEO agency, they took a chance on me, and I've just been in SEO ever since and with my own business. I always wanted to have my own thing. I loved the idea of building a brand and working for myself and having this flexibility and control over my path. I started my own SEO business. I went full-time about a year ago and I started working on everything about a year and a half, almost two years ago. It's like a simple journey but I do think I started earlier with my own business than probably most other consultants do. I'm sure we'll be talking about that more today. Sarah: So when you put forward yourself to come on the podcast, you said about how your business is a niche, isn't it? How did that come about and what do you offer as a niche business? Kristie: Definitely. I work in a niche industry before or a niche agency before. I enjoyed niching because first of all, I'm a pretty practical person, I knew that it would be easier to start a business with a niche. I find that connections and speaking opportunities, and networking, all that stuff comes easier when you're situated in more of a niche...

We are back for Season 3 and this week we have Abby Reimer on the podcast to talk about the importance of creating content that both search engines (eg Google) and humans love. Resources from the episode: Hemingway App - https://hemingwayapp.com/ (https://hemingwayapp.com/) Thruuu - https://app.samuelschmitt.com/ (https://app.samuelschmitt.com/) Article - https://searchengineland.com/creative-ways-to-source-content-ideas-from-ugc-for-seo-350277 Where to find Abby: Twitter: https://twitter.com/abbyreimermpls LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abby-reimer/ --- Episode Sponsor This season is sponsored by Screaming Frog. Screaming Frog develop crawling and log file analysis software for the SEO industry, and wanted to support the WTSPodcast as listeners to the show. They've just released version 16 of their SEO Spider software, which includes - improved JavaScript crawling to help you identify dependencies, such as JavaScript content and links, automated crawl reports for Data Studio integration, advanced search and filtering, and the app is now available in Spanish, French, German and Italian. You can check out the latest version at Screaming Frog's website (screamingfrog.co.uk). Where to find Screaming Frog: Website - https://www.screamingfrog.co.uk/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/screaming-frog/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/screamingfrog YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/ScreamingFrogSEO Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/screamingfrog/ --- Episode Transcript Sarah McDowell: Hello, and welcome to the Women in Tech SEO podcast. I am very excited that we are back for season three. I am Sarah McDowell, an SEO content executive and your host for today. Joining me, I have Abby Reimer, SEO manager at Uproer, to talk about creating content that humans and search engines love. Hello, Abby. Abby Reimer: Hi, Sarah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Sarah: Thank you very much for joining. How are you doing? Abby: I'm fabulous. I'm ready for fall, crazy enough. I have my fall candles and a sweater on. I'm ready to go. Sarah: Ready for the autumnal? Is that the word? Is that the right word? Abby: Yes. I am very ready especially being from the Midwest. That's wild. Usually, summers are too short. No one wants them to end. This year, I'm ready for the smell of fall, ready for the seasons to switch. Sarah: To kick things off, I think a good place to start is if you can give our audience a brief overview of yourself and how you got into this wonderful world of SEO. Abby: Yes, absolutely. I am an SEO manager at Uproer, which is a search marketing agency in Minneapolis. We focus on e-commerce and tech companies. How I got here is a little interesting. As you probably know, if you're in SEO, it's something you stumble into. There's no degree for it. It's just interesting how many different paths there are. I graduated with a PR and writing degree and got a general marketing role. It was through that that I was working a lot on a blog. I'd worked a lot with email and social and promoting it on different channels. I noticed one week that one of our blogs was doing really r traffic. I was like, "I didn't promote this. What is happening here?" I was so confused. I looked at analytics. I saw that Google organic was the top channel that week. That question that I typed into Google, it's very meta, but I googled, "How do you show up in Google? How do you get traffic?" I was so fascinated with what I found. I had no idea that it was how you structure web pages and the actual queries that you target. That's how people get found among many other reasons. I went down that rabbit hole. I started following Moz and Brian Dean's Backlinko, followed a lot of those types of sites. I fell in love with it. Six months into my role or eight months or whatever it was, I was like, "I want to work on SEO and content full time." I ended up going to a content marketing...

Welcome back to our weekend Cabral HouseCall shows! This is where we answer our community's wellness, weight loss, and anti-aging questions to help people get back on track! Check out today's questions:  Ryan: I have 2 questions about supplementing chromium for blood glucose regulation. First, are the effects of supplementing chromium acute? Or if I were to stop, would there still be a lingering effect due to increased stores in my body? If acute, how long would that last? One meal? Two? One day? Secondly, would you use a picolinate version, or a GTF version? Or something else? Carolyn: Hello Dr. Cabral. I just wanted to tell you I love your podcast and I just finished reading your book. I am 35 and have PCOS and believe I am a kapha body type. I typically try to fast for 14 hours overnight to help with my insulin resistance. However, I work twice a week and leave my house very early on those days. On my way to work I like to drink my coffee (I do add collagen powder to it). I know this breaks my fast, but I have been reading that consuming caffeine on an empty stomach should be avoided. Can this be impacting my weight loss or causing any other negative impact? Alex: Hello doctor Cabral, I'm really hoping you can help me with the following. My 74 old father won't stop smoking. He's been doing it since he was 18 and trust me, we tried everything you can imagine tp get to stop but of no avail. The only win we had is that got him down to 3 cigarettes a day, but that's all that he is willing to give us. He has high blood pressure and high cholesterol, but other than that no major health issues. I would really like to know if there's anything he can do to reduce the damage that those cigarettes are creating. I love my dad and I want to keep him healthy and alive as long as possible. Are there any supplements, foods, natural therapies or anything else that we can get him to do in order to lessen the damage a little bit. Thank you so much in advance. Your opinion and knowledge mean the world to me. Best, Alex Cynthia: Hi doctor Cabral, How would you treat someone who has GI issues (smelly gas & bloating) caused by dysbiosis? I did a stool test which showed no candida or bacterial overgrowth, but lowered amounts of beneficial, residential flora. Thanks, Cynthia Tracy: Hi Dr Cabral. Thank you so much for your podcasts. They are both inspiring and educational. My question is about diastasis recti. I believe this is why I have a bulge on my stomach that doesn't go away with diet. I am a mother of 2 (the youngest is 3). How would you recommend to heal this issue. Sarah: Hi Dr Cabral! If someone absolutely has to take antibiotics, what do you recommend they do (afterwards or in parallel) so their gut health is not ruined?Thanks so much! Sarah Thank you for tuning into today's Cabral HouseCall and be sure to check back tomorrow where we answer more of our community's questions!  - - - Show Notes & Resources: http://StephenCabral.com/2024 - - - Get Your Question Answered: http://StephenCabral.com/askcabral   - - - Dr. Cabral's New Book, The Rain Barrel Effect https://amzn.to/2H0W7Ge - - - Join the Community & Get Your Questions Answered: http://CabralSupportGroup.com - - -  Dr. Cabral's Most Popular At-Home Lab Tests: > Complete Minerals & Metals Test (Test for mineral imbalances & heavy metal toxicity) - - - > Complete Candida, Metabolic & Vitamins Test (Test for 75 biomarkers including yeast & bacterial gut overgrowth, as well as vitamin levels) - - - > Complete Stress, Mood & Metabolism Test (Discover your complete thyroid, adrenal, hormone, vitamin D & insulin levels) - - - > Complete Stress, Sleep & Hormones Test (Run your adrenal & hormone levels) - - - > Complete Food Sensitivity Test (Find out your hidden food sensitivities) - - - > Complete Omega-3 & Inflammation Test (Discover your levels of inflammation related to your omega-6 to omega-3 levels) - - - > View all Functional Medicine lab tests (View all Functional Medicine lab tests you can do right at home for you and your

This week we chat with Diana Richardson, Social Media & Community Manager for the SEO division of Semrush, all about SERP features. Where to find Diana: Twitter: https://twitter.com/DianaRich013 (https://twitter.com/DianaRich013) LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%F0%9F%8D%B7-diana-richardson-8965a317/ --- Resources: https://www.semrush.com/blog/ --- Episode Sponsor This season is sponsored by NOVOS. NOVOS, the London-based eCommerce SEO agency, has won multiple awards for its eCommerce SEO campaigns including Best Global SEO Agency of The Year 2 years running working with brands like Bloom & Wild and Not On The High Street. They are running an exclusive Shopify SEO roundtable for eCommerce leaders on September 23rd with limited spaces available. If you're interested, reach out to them via thisisnovos.com or message their co-founder Antonio Wedral on LinkedIn. Where to find Novos: Website - https://thisisnovos.com/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/thisisnovos Twitter - https://twitter.com/thisisnovos Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thisisnovos/ --- Episode Transcript: Sarah: Hello and a very warm welcome to the Women in Tech SEO podcast, I am Sarah McDowell, SEO Content Executive at Holland and Barrett, and I am your host for today. We have Diana Richardson joining us today, who is social media and community manager for the SEO unit at SEMRush. Hello, Diana. Diana: Sarah. Oh, my gosh. I could just listen to you all day. I love your voice. Sarah: Thank you. Maybe I need to think of ways to make money out of my voice. Maybe that's what I need to do? Diana: Yeah, you definitely should. Sarah:  I feel like we've already cleared something up. So, it is SEMRush rather than S-E-M-rush? Diana: Yes, and we have a lot of fun with how you pronounce our name. But in December of 2020, we went through a rebrand and we revisited our logo, and you'll notice our name is not capitalised as much as it used to be. So, we definitively made it Semrush in December of 2020. But in my career of all these years, I've always called it SEM Rush. So, it was a big change for me too. I've just now kind of get it down. Sarah: There you go. You've heard it here official. Well, let's start by getting to know you, Diana, so please would you be so kind and give us a brief overview of yourself? So, what you do and how you got into this wonderful world of SEO. Diana: My SEO journey started in 2006 when I answered an ad in the paper. Yes, we did not have things like indeed at that time and neither was SEO as a career choice. So, the ad was actually for a marketing specialist. And so, I sat down for the interview and the woman who would become my manager described SEO and PPC to me, and it was with a company that was transitioning from print to digital. So, I learned this from the ground up, brand spanking new, no training in college, with my clients, hands-on for 15 years. It's the best way to learn. I was with them for quite a long time, but then I wanted to branch out beyond SEO. And so, I found a job as a digital marketing director where I got to learn social media, email, branding, storytelling, all of those beautiful elements, and then actually networked my way to the job here at Semrush, which combines both of my loves, which is talking to people and SEO. So, it worked out great. Sarah: Are you ready for me to do a quick-fire round of questions? Diana: Yes. [Quick Fire Questions] Sarah: There are loads of ways that you can be creative. You don't have to draw. What empowers you to be the brilliant woman that you are today? Diana: Besides my genes? I love this question because I think it has been a 38-year journey, right? We learn things every step of the way. And what has empowered me to be how I am, where I am, is finding that it was OK to be me. Many, many more doors have opened for me just being myself, including my job with Semrush and being part of the Women in Tech SEO

Hallo und herzlich willkommen bei Deutschlands einzigem Podcast, der nahezu alle Filmstarts der Woche mit einer eigenen Review versieht. Wir liefern euch launige und knackige Filmkritiken, Analysen und Talks über Kino- und Streamingfilme und -serien - immer aktuell, informativ und mit der nötigen Prise Humor. Viel Spaß mit unseren Besprechungen! ----- In dieser Ausgabe: Shiny Flakes https://youtu.be/M12OEiThB6c Tom und Jerry https://youtu.be/bo34P9ObjJA Albträumer https://youtu.be/Q4ZTmE63ODQ Buddy Games https://youtu.be/iAf9B6Fuzwk How it Ends https://youtu.be/t84FHuWMs2I Evangelion 3.0-1.01 https://youtu.be/GZfuWMDEJpw Sommer-Rebellen https://youtu.be/mnjb-bdJBwM Neubau https://youtu.be/2eX64gJp1SQ New Order https://youtu.be/s3LQYa4WxDU Seven Days War https://youtu.be/mLZEi2VDFco Wem gehört mein Dorf? https://youtu.be/9GUqiT4ZCbg -----Website: https://tele-stammtisch.de E-Mail: info@tele-stammtisch.de Twitter: @Andi_H3ld Facebook: DerTeleStammtisch Instagram: der_telestammtisch Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2Q9zORv | https://spoti.fi/2TkTWSR Redaktionsplaylist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2FiWZuk710w07SC4natOdf PayPal: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/AndreasPrill BuyMeACoffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/TeleStammtisch ----- Teilnehmer*innen: Andreas, Patrick, Stu, Max, Nico, Marco, Sven, Timo, Dom, Kenny, Sam, Britt-Marie, Luisa, Nina, Christopher, Kathi, Sarah ----- Thank you very much to BASTIAN HAMMER for the orchestral part of the intro! I used the following sounds of freesound.org: 16mm Film Reel by bone666138 https://freesound.org/s/198838 wilhelm_scream.wav by Syna-Max https://freesound.org/s/64939 backspin.wav by il112 https://freesound.org/s/182316 Crowd in a bar (LCR).wav by Leandros.Ntounis https://freesound.org/s/163995 Short Crowd Cheer 2.flac by qubodup https://freesound.org/s/182572 Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0) https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0 Folge direkt herunterladen

On this week's episode we chat to Dhriti Shashikanth, Account Executive at Mindshare London, about starting out in the SEO industry after graduating from university. Where to find Dhriti: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dhriti-s-451969166/ --- Episode Sponsor This season is sponsored by NOVOS. NOVOS, the London-based eCommerce SEO agency, has won multiple awards for their SEO campaigns including Best Global SEO Agency of The Year 2 years running. Trusted by over 150 global eCommerce brands including the likes of Bloom & Wild, Patch and Thread, NOVOS provides technical eCommerce SEO expertise with a creative edge by specialising across platforms like Shopify & Magento. They have been named as one of 2021's best workplaces in the UK and with a diverse, gender-balanced team are a culture-first agency. Check them out on thisisnovos.com or follow on Linkedin @thisisnovos Where to find Novos: Website - https://thisisnovos.com/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/thisisnovos Twitter - https://twitter.com/thisisnovos Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thisisnovos/ --- Episode Transcript Sarah: Hello and a very warm welcome to the Women in Tech SEO podcast, I am Sarah McDowell, SEO Content Executive at Holland and Barrett, and I am your host for today. Joining me on today's show, I have Dhriti Shashikanth, Account Executive at Mindshare London, who is going to be talking to us about starting in SEO as a beginner and graduate from university. So welcome to the show. Dhriti: Hi! Thanks for inviting me. Sarah: Thank you for joining us. How are you doing? I mean, it's Thursday evening, Friday tomorrow. Have you got the Friday vibes going on? Dhriti: 100%. It's been such a long and busy month so far and it's only the 8th. It's been a long, busy one but looking forward to the weekend. Sarah: Well, it sounds like you pretty much deserve this weekend that's coming up then. To kick things off and to start this podcast, can you give our wonderful listeners a brief overview of yourself, what you do tell us a bit about you. Dhriti: Sure. My name is Dhriti and I'm an account executive at Mindshare UK. So, I've been at my current agency for a little bit over four months, just past my probation, which is great and currently living in London. And I'm quite excited that COVID has finished or like sort of finished, but it's lovely to go out and meet people as well. So, I'm enjoying that side of things. Would you like to know anything more? Sarah: I do have some quickfire questions.  [Quick Fire Questions] Sarah: Well, I mean, I'm going to be Googling that after the show. I'm imagining our listeners will be as well. What would you say empowers you to be the brilliant woman that you are today? Dhriti: I think it has to always be my role models. Definitely. I've been around so many strong women in my life. And I would probably say my mother and my grandmother are probably at the highest on that list. And I think my mum is just so hardworking and she's such a strong woman herself that I think it's inspired me to sort of getting to where I am in my career and work as hard as I've been working, so I would say, yes, it's my mother and other inspiring women in my field as well. My previous boss, Becky Simms, and of course, the Directors that I'm working with now in Mindshare as well, 100 per cent. Sarah: What one bit of advice would you give women starting in the industry? Dhriti: From my experience anyway, there seems to be a lot of women working in SEO. And I think it's just reaching out and speaking to people and joining the community and not being afraid to voice their opinions and challenge. I think that's the best way you can learn. So, I would say, yeah, not to be afraid of doing those things. Sarah: It's time to get into the meaty topic of this episode. And at the beginning, I said that we'd be discussing starting in SEO as a beginner and you'll be sort of like sharing your...

This week we speak to Gisele Navarro, CEO at Content Marketing Agency NeoMam, about working remotely and managing remote teams. Where to find Gisele: Website: https://neomam.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/giselenavarro/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/ichbinGisele --- Episode Sponsor Massive shout out to NOVOS for sponsoring the full second season of WTSPodcast. NOVOS, the London-based eCommerce SEO agency, has won multiple awards for their SEO campaigns including Best Global SEO Agency of The Year 2 years running. Trusted by over 150 global eCommerce brands including the likes of Bloom & Wild, Patch and Thread, NOVOS provides technical eCommerce SEO expertise with a creative edge by specialising across platforms like Shopify & Magento. They have been named as one of 2021's best workplaces in the UK and with a diverse, gender-balanced team are a culture-first agency. Where to find Novos: Website - https://thisisnovos.com/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/thisisnovos Twitter - https://twitter.com/thisisnovos Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thisisnovos/ --- Episode Transcript: Sarah: Hello and a very warm welcome to the Women in Tech SEO podcast. I'm Sarah McDowell, SEO Content Executive at Holland and Barrett., content executive at Holland and Barrett and I will be your host for today. We have Gisele Navarro joining us today to talk about remote work in a subject that I think we can all relate to right now. Gisele is the CEO of NeoMam, a creative studio on a mission to produce content that people want to share with a background in link building and leading a fully remote and multi-cultural team of specialists from her home in Derbyshire. Gisele, a very warm welcome to the show. Gisele: Thank you for having me, Sarah. I'm happy to be here. --- This season is sponsored by NOVOS. NOVOS, the London-based eCommerce SEO agency, has won multiple awards for their SEO campaigns including Best Global SEO Agency of The Year 2 years running. Trusted by over 150 global eCommerce brands including the likes of Bloom & Wild, Patch and Thread, NOVOS provides technical eCommerce SEO expertise with a creative edge by specialising across platforms like Shopify & Magento. They have been named as one of 2021's best workplaces in the UK and with a diverse, gender-balanced team are a culture-first agency. Check them out on thisisnovos.com or follow on Linkedin @thisisnovos --- Sarah: Thank you very much for agreeing to spend your afternoon with me. How are we doing? How's your Wednesday been? Gisele: I mean, it's almost coming to an end now. So the future looks bright. It's been good. I've been quite busy this week, so I'm a bit more tired than you should. But I hope I can tell you where I go on the podcast. And yeah, it's been, it's been good. How was your Wednesday? Sarah: I mean, I've no meaning to brag, but I have had today off. So I'm feeling quite Zen. Like I fell asleep earlier, listening to a podcast in the sunshine. So that's the kind of day that I've had. Sarah: Can you give our wonderful listeners a brief overview of yourself, what you do and how you got into this world of SEO? Gisele: Yes. So I lead the team at NeoMam. So basically my day today, it's just working with everybody who helped us in the creation and the promotion of the content that we make for our clients. And so my background is in link-building. So I started in SEO back in 2009. And I think by 2000, and by the end of 2010, it was quite clear to me that link-building was my thing, and I really liked it. So I ended up being a CEO because I used to work in sales and I was actually quite depressed and I felt that I needed to change something. I was too young to feel the way I was feeling. I felt at the time. So I just quit my job and went online to see what I could do from home. And I've, I've always had a blog since I was a kid, so I kind of knew things or the CEO. So I did put myself...

Sarah Barrett is a principal IA Manager at Microsoft. She's been writing compellingly about information architecture in Medium, and in this conversation, we focus on her most recent posts, which deal with how architectural scale affects our perception of information environments. Download episode 64 Show notes Sarah R. Barrett @documentalope (Sarah Barrett) on Twitter Known Item (Medium publication) Microsoft Learn MSDN docs.microsoft.com World IA Day Breadcrumb navigation Rachel Price Websites are not living rooms and other lessons for information architecture by Sarah Barrett Understanding Architectural Scale: Tabletops and landscapes by Sarah Barrett Microsoft Bob The Informed Life episode 17: Rachel Price on Improvisation Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the transcript Jorge: Sarah, welcome to the show. Sarah: Thank you for having me. This is so exciting. Jorge: Well, I'm excited to have you here. For folks who might not know you, would you mind please introducing yourself? About Sarah Sarah: Sure. My name is Sarah Barrett and I lead the information architecture team for Microsoft's Developer Relations organization. So, in addition to the kind of stuff that you might think of as standard developer relations, like advocates going out and doing talks about Microsoft technologies and that kind of thing, we also have a huge web presence. So, we publish Microsoft Docs, developer.microsoft.com Learn, which is a training and kind of like micro-learning platform. All of the information about Microsoft certifications, a Q & A site, a whole bunch of other stuff. So, it's really everywhere where we're not trying to sell you stuff; we're just trying to teach you how to use all of Microsoft technical products. It's a really fun, huge problem. And we've got a good-sized information architecture team for information architecture teams, which tend to be small. So that's really exciting. Before that, I was a consultant and I worked with a lot of different companies looking into how they solve their information architecture problems. But I wanted to go in-house somewhere, so I could actually sit with a problem and work with people in order to make it happen rather than just creating some shelfware, which everybody does, no matter how good your work is because organizations just aren't ready for it. So, I've been in house there for about three and a half years. It's been a really fun challenge. Jorge: That's great. I think I'm going to be revealing my age here by saying that at one point, I had an MSDN subscription where I would get these big boxes full of CDs, basically. And I'm guessing that with the advent of the internet, those things are no longer distributed on CDs and your team looks after the organization of all that content. Is that right? Sarah: Yeah. So, I mean, the funny thing about information is that it did not arise with the internet, as you know. This stuff has been around for a really long time. And even you know, a tech company like Microsoft is newer than many others, but like all of that information about MSDN did not go away. And MSDN TechNet, which was kind of IT pro side... originally, they would mail you physical CDs, and that was kind of the gold standard. Then all that stuff got put on websites. There was msdn.com. And we just finished migrating all of msdn.com over onto Docs - docs.microsoft.com. A lot of that information is still stuff that we're half-heartedly organizing and trying to find a place for because that history is so long. Jorge: From my brief experience with it, I get the sense that it is a massive amount of content. And it's also content that is undergoing constant revisions, because it deals with the documentation that developers need in order to use Microsoft's products and platforms, correct? Sarah: Yeah. So, it's a funny thing, because I sort of feel like if you were to go to docs.microsoft.com, which is the main thing we publish, you'd look at it and go, "somebody does the IA for this?" Like, it doesn't look like there's a lot of IA there — which, I promise you, we do! And we're even good at it. It's just a huge... it's a huge problem. It's a huge space. It's an enormous ecosystem of things. And a lot of the work we do is really around strategy and policy and winning hearts and minds and that kind of thing. It's been a long process. And yeah, because it is so big, so many different teams at the company publish to it, it's really more of a platform than a product. The way you talk about websites as places and emergent places rather than products or services or something like that, is extremely true for us, because it is something that lots of people are creating in an ongoing way all together, in perpetuity. And it changes constantly. So, a lot of what we do is try to adjust rules, try to incentivize different behaviors, create standards and structures around what people do rather than just architecting a site and saying, "cool, it's architected. There's your IA! It's done." There's no room for that in our work. Jorge: What I'm hearing there is that you are more the stewards of the place than the people who are structuring the nitty gritty content. Is that fair? Sarah: Absolutely. You know, we create guidelines for how you structure a table of contents or the kinds of things you put in navigation. We don't actually do any of it for you if you're a publisher on our platform. How websites are not living rooms Jorge: Well, that sounds super interesting, exciting, and necessary, I would imagine, especially in such a large distributed system. I've been wanting to have you on the show for a while, but what prompted me to reach out to you was a post you published to Medium called, "Websites are Not Living Rooms and Other Lessons for Information Architecture." I was hoping that you would tell us a bit about this. What do you mean by "websites are not living rooms?" Sarah: This article that you're talking about came out of a workshop I put together for World IA Day, when you and I last met in Switzerland. And the idea of the workshop really arose out of this work I was doing at Microsoft, which is so different from the consulting I was doing before. I often found, as a consultant, people are very ready to treat you as an expert. And oftentimes when you come in as part of a consultancy or an agency, some project sponsor or kind of some champion for there even being an information architecture problem that needs to be solved by a consultant, has done so much legwork for you in convincing everybody that this is a problem, in convincing everybody that information architecture is a thing. You know, somebody has done so much of that work. And so, everybody's very primed to treat you like an expert and accept the basics of what you're telling them when you come in in that context. When I started at Microsoft, I was the only information architect. There are more of us now, but at the time it was only me. And in retrospect, like I still can't figure out why they hired me, because I spent the first, probably 18 months I was there going to meetings with extraordinarily nice and talented people who I adore... but going to meetings with them and then being like, "I don't see why you have to have breadcrumbs. I don't see why things in the navigation all have to go to the same website. Why?" And it was... it wasn't hostile, but it was a challenge to explain the first principles of everything that tend to be true about information architecture. Like, "yes, you ought to have breadcrumbs on every page." Like, "yes, the steps in the breadcrumbs should go to pages where you can get to the subsequent breadcrumbs!" Very nitty gritty details like that, where I had never had to explain how breadcrumbs worked before because usually we all just have such a shared mental model about them. And one of the things that comes out of this so frequently, and the example I use in the article actually comes from my colleague Rachel Price, from her consulting days where people often come with a very simple idea of how they feel like it should just work. And those ways, like, "why can't we just..." so frequently comes from an experience in the real world, where I think the example that Rachel has is she was working on a product that was for college students. And the product manager was like, "why can't it just be a dorm room? And my backpack is on the floor and my wallet is in my backpack. And if I need to change something about my payment, I go in the backpack and I get my wallet. Why can't it just work that way?" And as an information architect, like I know in my bones that the answer is, "it can't. That will not work!" But it's really actually very hard to explain why, other than like, "that's weird and we tried it in the nineties! But it won't work." And so, a lot of this article is about like, okay, why does that idea of structuring something like physical space — why does it feel so appealing? Why does it seem so easy? And then why is won't it work? Why is it a red herring? Jorge: And what you're talking about here, I want to unpack it for the folks who are listening, is the idea that you can structure a digital system in ways that mimic the ways that we structure our physical environments, where we do things because, hey, we're used to operating in a living room or an office or what have you, why can't we just have the same affordances and signifiers, but presented in a two dimensional screen somehow. Is that right? Sarah: Yeah. And it seems like it ought to work, but it really doesn't. And it's because... and the point I'm making in the article is that there are implicit rules to how physical spaces work and I'm actually working on the next article in this series to unpack some of those more. I'm trying to get it published this week as we record it. But I have a two-year-old, so we'll see how that works. There are implicit rules to how these spaces work in the real world. And it's easy to mimic the look and feel of a physical space without actually following those implicit rules. So, we need to unpack what the implicit rules are. Jorge: The example that you bring up in the article is one that... again, I'm going to reveal my age by saying this, I remember being on the market, which is Microsoft Bob. And there might be a lot of folks in the audience who are not familiar with Microsoft Bob. How will you describe It for someone who hasn't seen it? Sarah: It wasn't the only one of these kinds of products. I think there were a lot of them in the early days of software and the internet. We didn't have this one, but I remember the very first computer I used that accessed the internet... it had other things that were like this. But it was basically that Microsoft was trying to sell the idea of an operating system and a personal computer to a home market. And in order to make it more accessible and appealing, they tried to structure the desktop, or like the operating system, as if it were a house. And so, the idea was that your accounting would be in a checkbook that was on a little drawing of a desk, which was in a study. And if you wanted to look at your contacts, that was in a Rolodex on the desk. If you wanted to do something that wasn't in a study or an office context, you would go to a different room, and that would be there instead. And it has some weird rooms. I've never actually used it, so I've only been able to kind of piece it together from stuff on the internet. But there's like a barn or something — it gets very strange! There are obviously parts of it that are just silly, where, you know... why do you need that room? But there are also parts of it that just, again, they don't follow the rules of how architectures are going to work, so it's not going to work. And it provides a kind of fun counterpoint to realistic requests and objections that you do get doing this kind of work. Metaphors Jorge: We use the desktop and file folder metaphor in interacting with our… let's call them personal computers as opposed to mobile devices. And that is a metaphor; it's not inherent to the underlying technology. Why would you say that the desktop and file folder metaphor works whereas the architectural metaphor doesn't work as well? Sarah: Yeah. I think there are a couple of things going on. This is very much like the subject of the next article that I'm working on. Which is that I would argue that our brains understand space at different scales. And we understand what I call tabletops, but you could also call a desktop or something like that in a very different way than we understand larger scale physical space, like a room, a house, a city, and then you even get into a nation and understanding that scale of space, which is huge. We understand those things in very different ways, and a lot of the ways that the personal computer and like the notion of the desktop have evolved to work mirror the ways our brains expect tabletop-like spaces to function. Tabletop-like spaces, I think in general... you can see them all at once or at least see how you would get to all of their pieces at once. And they consist of small moving parts. In a very similar way to how, if you're working at an analog desk, you can just have your stuff around you and you see it in your peripheral vision and you can affect most of the things around you. This is very different to how larger scale spaces work, where you can't see them all at one time and you have to construct a mental model of that space by moving around it and stitching those pieces together over time. There's a whole neuro-biological component to this where we have certain kinds of cells called place cells that fire in certain kinds of circumstances that tell you, “Ah, this is a new place." And that doesn't happen when a small object moves around you on a tabletop. It does happen when you move from room to room. And so when we're in more operating system-like experiences or more app-like experiences, you know? You and I are talking to each other on Zoom right now. That really functions like a tabletop. Everything's right there. I could open stuff up, but it works more like drawers or something like that. It's not at all like something like Microsoft Docs or the BBC's website or any other kind of like large, content-based website, which is really much more like a landscape where you have to kind of move around from place to place and reconstruct a picture of it. And so, the big argument there — and this is something that I work with my designers on a lot — the big argument there is you have to be really clear about what you're building so you know what kinds of rules to use, because those things are actually really different. And most of the time we just kind of go, "eh, it's sort of like an app, right?" Like, "what is this app like?" And it's like, "Oh, its website-like." We know that Zoom and the Wall Street Journal don't and shouldn't work the same way, but we have a hard time articulating why. And for me, it's that difference in architectural scale and how our brains understand it. Agency Jorge: I find that idea super intriguing. I'm wondering if you could elaborate or give us examples of how something like the Wall Street Journal would differ from something that is more... I don't know, a communication tool like Zoom. Sarah: Yeah. So gosh, I wish I'd opened the article up, because I haven't thought about this a couple of days, but they vary in some kind of predictable ways. One is the scale of the things around you. Something like Zoom tends to have a lot of little pieces or I use Keynote as an example too. The reference, in the real world that you're using as metaphors, tend to be smaller and the actual elements in the interface tend to consist of a lot of little things. Whereas in a more landscape-like environment, you're dealing with a few big things. In a real-world landscape, those are buildings. Those are landmarks. They are mountains that are far away, as opposed to like objects that you have on a table around you. And we have a similar scale with the tabletop kind of apps versus landscape-y websites. You also get different degrees of agency. I have a lot of say over exactly what Zoom does. Perhaps not as much as one might like, but I can customize something about it, and I would expect that customization to persist. I can rearrange things. There's not a lot of expectation that I can do anything to gov.uk, other than maybe put my information in a form. I'm not going to do a lot of customization. It's not going to remember a lot of details from time to time. We also talk about kind of how you interact with the thing. The best way to learn something like Zoom, even if they put an overlay on it, is just to kind of poke at stuff. You know, turn that on and off and see what it does. You move things around you, open up settings. It really rewards interaction. Whereas with a large content-based landscape-like website, you have to move around. You're walking around and looking at stuff. You're moving from page to page and forming that mental model rather than poking at stuff to see what it does. There are a few different things like that. And then they come with different expectations too. There's a real expectation of intimacy with tabletops or with app-like experiences, even if they are a web apps. You kind of expect that it's yours in some way, and you don't expect that kind of of more websites that seem more like public goods. And we run into funny situations with that, like with things like Twitter, which I would argue functions like a tabletop, even though it's kind of a web app. You can experience it as an actual app too, but it's mine. I don't go anywhere. I just push buttons and do things on it and my stuff is there. And there all kinds of stories about people getting wildly upset about a new line showing up or a design change happening. I remember how much everybody freaked out when they went from 140 to 280 characters. You tend not to get such a feeling of ownership and people being so concerned about changes in websites that feel like public accommodations. You know, people have lived their lives in docs. They spend tons of time there. They don't tend to care very much about the exact details of the design or something like that. Because it doesn't feel like theirs. Jorge: If I might reflect that back to you, this principle of understanding the scale at which we're working seems to have something to do with the degree of agency that you have over the thing that you're interacting with. And the more granular the level of control that you have with the thing that you're interacting with, the more... I'll use the word intimate, maybe the more like personalized... it's something that you use as opposed to something you inhabit, in some ways. Is that right? Sarah: Very much so, yeah. And I think it's really like, "does your brain think that this is a place or not?" We don't expect places for the most part to be only for us that no one else could ever get into. It's an easy jump to be like, "ah, yes. Other people are here too. This is not just only for me." Whereas something at a much smaller scale... like, I don't expect other people to be messing around with my nightstand. Or my desk at work. Even though theoretically they could, but it's my stuff and I left it there. And there's that greater expectation of control and of intimacy. Naive geography Jorge: Great. So, I don't know if to call these principles or just things to be mindful of when doing this kind of work. You've mentioned scale as one of them, and you've already said that there's another post coming out specifically on that. In the post that is currently published, you mentioned three other principles, if we might call them that. And I was wondering if you could, recap them for our listeners. So, scale is one. A second here you say, "leverage the principles of naive geography." What does that mean? Sarah: I came across a really interesting article a few years ago that is by geographers for geographers, which is like not a field I'd thought about at all. And I was looking into the idea of cognitive maps and cognitive mapping with the idea of like, "oh, do people have like complex maps in their heads that they navigate and are those things the same in the real world and the digital world?" And the answer is, for the most part, no, we don't have maps that have any integrity to them. There are a couple of exceptions, but this was the theory for a while, and it's been pretty disproven. It's not a thing we have. We do, however, have representations of ways to get places in our head. I distinguished between the kind of tabletop more small-scale and the landscape more large-scale because we don't need these representations and we don't form them for small scale experiences. If you can rely on everything you need being in your peripheral vision, your brain doesn't bother remembering where everything is. Because it can get that kind of continuous sensory input. But for these larger-scale experiences where you have to construct a representation over time, and you have to reason against that to figure out where you're going. We construct those representations. And the interesting thing about it is that we're very good at it. I talk about that a little bit in this article with all kinds of cultural traditions that rely on remembering things by relying on how good humans are at remembering places and how to get between places. We're very good at it. But like more interestingly to me, we also make a lot of mistakes while we do it and we make those mistakes in predictable ways. So, one of the principles of naive geography that I think is just fascinating is that for the most part, when we remember things, we remember the earth as flat and square. We're very bad at remembering or estimating depths and heights in comparison to lengths and widths and distances and that kind of thing. Our brains really smoosh everything down. We also, for instance, think about distance in terms of time, not absolute distance. And so, they have eight of these or something like that. And the idea was that naive geography is how everybody understands geography and makes geographic calculations, even if they are not geographers. And they compare it to the idea of naive physics, which is that you can tell what's going to happen when you throw a ball without being a physicist. Like we can figure that out. The same way as we can give directions, we can make judgments and we can reason based on distances without being a geographer. And we're good at it, but we're also bad at it in these kinds of known ways. And I found that almost all of those ways are relevant for digital spaces as well as physical spaces. So, we go into exactly how those work and how you can apply them to your designer information architecture work. Wayfinding Jorge: Another principle here says, "check your wayfinding." That sounds like it's related to this concept of naive geography. What's the distinction here between wayfinding and what we've been talking about so far? Sarah: Yeah. I think of it as, naive geography is what humans do. And developing wayfinding principles or instantiating those way-finding principles in our designs, is what we as information architects do. Basically, it's great to know that people's brains mislead them in this standard way that we can predict, but you have to turn that into something that we can use because nobody I work with cares as much about neuroscience as I do, you know! Or geography, or cognitive mapping, or any of these things. We have to change it into guidelines and principles that I can give to product designers and developers and that kind of thing. And so, for wayfinding, it's really bringing it out of the more esoteric and theoretical space of like landscapes and tabletops and whatever is happening with cognitive geography and this kind of thing into like, "okay, what does that mean?" It's very simple stuff that I largely adapted from museum exhibit design, where it's like, "hey, you need to make sure people have landmarks. You need to pave paths so they know where to go." And we tie that back to the principles of naive geography to figure out why. I tend to illustrate this with grocery stores because I find that they have great wayfinding and it is way more accessible than a lot of the other examples people use like airports, especially with none of us have been in an airport for a year. And grocery stores make a lot of complex things very findable. I often have conversations with stakeholders where they're like, "well, no wonder nobody can find anything. We have 200 products!" And like the average grocery store has something like 800,000 SKUs, and you never are surprised that you can find your brand of maple syrup or be sure it's not there. Which is like the gold standard of wayfinding as far as I'm concerned. So, you can use the structure well enough to be sure that something doesn't exist. "Oh, that's so findable, it's great!" So, we talk about the specific things that you need to check that you're doing in your experience to make sure people can use those naive geographic skills they have. Jorge: And that's a learned skill, right? Knowing to expect something to be there and realizing that it isn't because of its absence is something that you have to pick up. This weekend, I took my kids to Barnes and Noble. They were wanting to buy some books and as convenient as it is to do it online, it's still quite pleasurable to browse through the shelves. And I was explaining to them how the books are organized alphabetically by the author's last name on the shelves. And that came up in the context of looking for a specific book and realizing that it wasn't there because the author's name wasn't on there. That's kind of what we're talking about here. Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. Jorge: This example of the grocery stores is also useful in that perhaps we understand these organization schemes at different levels of granularity. Once we understand how a grocery store is organized, we can find our way from the very highest level of the organization scheme all the way down to a specific product. And, at the highest level, the distinction that sticks in my mind is this phrase that I've heard used for people looking to eat healthier. They say, "shop the perimeter." Shop the edges of the grocery store, because that's where the fresh foods are kept. Whereas all of this stuff in the middle is processed foods. And that's a very high-level distinction that once you understand it, you can navigate that environment differently. Sarah: Yeah, that's also a great example of being able to reason based on a structure, rather than on content. Which is another gold standard of doing information architecture, I think. If somebody can understand the structure and your wayfinding and experience well enough that they can go, "hmm, I'm going to go around the edges!" Rather than saying, "I'm going to go to the lettuce and then I will go to the chard!" You know, that's what we dream of creating for our users. Standard elements Jorge: I want to move on to the last of the principles that you present in the article. It says, "use standard elements intentionally." What do you mean by 'standard elements'? Sarah: Occasionally, I get comments or people worrying that our information architecture isn't innovative enough that we're not doing anything surprising or introducing anything brand new. And I feel very strongly that your architecture is not the place to surprise people. Like, there are actual architects out there building very innovative homes that no one wants to live in. And I have no interest in doing that. I really want us to use the oldest, most standard, most expected way of doing things. I think the example of the grocery store is another great way here. There's a lot of benefit to not innovating in the layout of a grocery store. There probably is some benefit in innovating a little bit around the edges or in some details, but you gain a lot from making it legible and making it expected for people. And so, that one is really about... okay, given these things that we expect to have: we expect to have global navigation, we expect to have metadata on content, we expect to have titles and breadcrumbs... how do we unpack what each of those things is doing for us and make sure that between the suite of those elements we are using? Because you never use just one, you use lots of them together. Between all of those elements, we are presenting a coherent, complete view of the wayfinding people need. And this comes up a lot for us in things like design reviews, where the group will decide that we really don't need a content-type label on that card. And I'll say, "okay, the thing that that is doing for us is this thing!" Like, it is fulfilling this wayfinding need. How else are we going to do that? Because if you want to take this label off, I have to pick up the slack somewhere else. Whereas if somebody says, "oh, hey, I think we don't actually need..." I don't know, "we don't use breadcrumbs on this page or something." I can say, "okay, cool." Because actually that same need for being able to zoom out or being able to orient yourself relative to a landmark is actually being taken care of in these three other ways on the page already. So, if we lose that one, it's okay. It can help you make decisions about those trade-offs with design elements. It can also help you check the things that you absolutely need to be coherent with each other, that you need to be consistent because they're trying to do the same thing. And if they give people two different sets of information, that's worse than not having it at all. Jorge: It's an exhortation to be mindful about not just the elements you're using, but why they're there, right? Sarah: Yes, and all of this is really because, again, I had ideas about what I was doing as an information architect and I didn't have great answers for the little granular-wise. And so this is a result of my exploration of, okay, well, why? Why do we need them to work that way? And so, I'm sharing it with everybody else. Jorge: I'm wondering how thinking this way has affected your own work? Sarah: So much of information architecture is in the people and not the models. And so, my work has been about gaining allies and building relationships and getting people on board, and a good explanation that you can be confident about that doesn't rely on, "just trust me!" goes a really long way. Being able to break it down and decide where I make trade-offs and where I can accept more dissent, where I can encourage that and really learn from it versus where I really need to double down and say, " no, we need this." That's made a huge difference in my ability to get things done and to just build better experiences. Closing Jorge: Well, that's great. I'm very excited to see the upcoming posts in the series. It sounds like you're well ahead with the one about scale. Where can folks follow up with you to keep up to date with what you're writing and sharing. Sarah: Yeah, you can find me on Twitter @documentalope, or you can find everything I and my colleague Rachel Price write at a Medium publication called "Known Item." Jorge: Fantastic. And I have to call out that Rachel is a previous guest in the show as well. And I'll link to the conversation we had in the show notes. It's been so great having you on the show, Sarah. Sarah: Thank you so much. It's been fun. Jorge: Thank you.

What you'll learn in this episode: How lawyers, law firms and managing partners respond when they hear Firm Focus can help them develop a firm focus. How you can overcome disorganization and develop systems that can keep you focused. The top three stumbling blocks for lawyers that impede business development. About Sarah Tetlow: Sarah Tetlow is an experienced productivity consultant, trainer and speaker for attorneys and other legal professionals. She uses her past experiences, organizational and strategic thought process, education and training to help law firms increase their bottom line and operate more efficiently. Through one-on-one consulting, strategic planning, workshops and group trainings, Sarah works with attorneys and law firms to find personalized ways to manage one's day with a proactive and focused approach.  Sarah has experienced first-hand the stress that attorneys endure in trying to manage multiple projects. Sarah's mission, and the reason for starting Firm Focus, is the desire to see a change in the industry and to help attorneys experience control over their day.​ Additional resources: Firm Focus Website Sarah's LinkedIn Firm Focus Facebook Firm Focus LinkedIn Transcript: Episode 91: Finding the Focus to Increase the Bottom Line with Sarah Tetlow, Founder & CEO of Firm Focus   Sharon: Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst podcast. Today, we're talking with Sarah Tetlow, Founder & CEO of Firm Focus which works with law firms to increase productivity with the ultimate goal of increasing firm revenue. She has worn many hats within the law firm environment, so she knows the ins and outs of how they work and where they encounter stumbling blocks when it comes to productivity. Today we'll hear all about her journey, her perspective on law firm productivity and how it can be enhanced. Sarah, welcome to the program.    Sarah: Thank you so much, Sharon, it's wonderful to be here.   Sharon: So glad to be talking with you. When I was reading stumbling blocks on law firm productivity, I thought, “Oh my gosh, there are a lot of them. So, tell us about your career path and how you started working with lawyers.   Sarah: Yeah, I went to UC Santa Barbara and studied law and society and always thought that I wanted to be a lawyer. My whole life, I wanted to be a lawyer and long story short, I ended up going a different path, but always within the legal industry and I was a litigation paralegal for many years in my career and then I moved into a marketing and business development manager role and, ultimately, during that time in my career, I started to really explore what I was passionate about and where there was a need in the industry which landed on creating Firm Focus and now I'm truly happy that my career took this path because I love helping lawyers work more productively, be more organized and basically fall in love with their career again.   Sharon: Was it helping lawyers that made you passionate or was it  that you could enhance their ability to work more efficiently? What did you become passionate about?   Sarah: When I was a litigation paralegal and kind of the day to day and preparing the lawyers for trial or even depositions or hearings and helping manage a lot of the big, voluminous projects, it was always something that I really just enjoyed doing. I remained calm in the storm. I always had a really good sense of time and project size and the resources that we needed to use to be able to meet deadlines and effectuate the projects without burning out and it was just something I was good at, but also I really enjoyed that part of my career and helping manage the lawyers, helping manage the cases. So when I started to explore—when I was a business development manager and I was spending a lot of commuting time thinking about what was I loving about being a marketing and BD manager, what was missing about not being a litigation paralegal anymore, where are my skills, what am I good at and where can I fill a gap in the industry by marrying all of those skills and my passion to help the industry. So, it came from both. It came from just sort of my own selfish view of myself and what fulfilled me, but then matching that to what the industry could benefit from and gain value from and so that's what landed me on their productivity experts, their business development coaches and I'm now bringing to the industry a productivity expert for the legal industry.   Sharon: So, tell us what made you decide to go out on your own, start your firm, and tell us a little bit about Firm Focus.   Sarah: That was scary of course. I had a career; I had a job; I had two babies; I was secure and comfortable, but I started on the side. I started doing some home organizing. So, on weekends or at night, I would go and do home organizing, just something that I found out twas a career and it's something I do even in my own house to reduce stress, and I enjoy it. Yes, I'm crazy; I like organizing; it's something that I love to do and so I would do it on the side on top of my career at a law firm in San Francisco and then I started to get the idea of, “Wow, I can make a business out of this.” But whenever I would kind of look at longevity in that industry, I just didn't see it. I didn't see my body doing this for the next 35 years or however long—not even 35 years. I'm a little too old to work for 35 more years, but I didn't see myself doing it long-term and so it took about a year to evolve to the right idea, but I came to the idea of marrying again the idea of organizing, but also the skills I had in the law office and came up with Firm Focus and then the name came up because I landed on the concept; I landed on the idea; I started to strategize about what that business would be like and then of course I wrote down lawyers, law firms, productivity and came up with Firm Focus which I'm actually very proud of the name because I think it has a double meaning on both ends and I stand by what I do with my clients in really helping them develop a firm focus in their business and in their day to day.   Sharon: What's the response when you tell lawyers or law firms or management partners that you can help them develop a firm focus? Do they always say, “I have that” or what? What's their response?   Sarah: Almost 100% of the time, I get a laugh and says, “You're saying lawyers need that?” Usually there's some curiosity behind that as well because many lawyers—there are some lawyers that have their workday designed perfectly. They have systems in place. They have boundaries established. They are able to stay focused, mitigate distractions and interruptions, have effective communication skills within their law firm and this is not really an issue for them, but there are others, many others whereby the very nature of how the industry has manifest, productivity skills and organizational skills are essential and it's not that lawyers are lacking these skills necessarily. They're incredibly intelligent individuals. Usually it's a result of just the fast-pace day and the slow-paced judicial system, the skills to be able to design the [unintelligible] of day, but then be able to react to significant changes that occur in their caseloads, things settling, trial dates being vacated, deals, the date being moved and all of these things elicit and need to be very organized and have a good sense of time, attention and project management skills.   Sharon: Do you find that most—and I guess there are some people who just can't get organized. Can you help them overcome that or do you come in and set up systems or what do you do?   Sarah: All of the above. So, I work with a lot of lawyers that have ADHD; it's actually quite common and the reality is—I'm a naturally very, very organized person and I don't expect my clients to be 100% organized and they don't expect that of themselves, but I have a lot of strategies, ideas and tips and of course it's customized to the person. Are they a litigator or are they are transactional attorney? Are they remote or are they in the office or a hybrid? Are they a digital person or are they a paper person? And so, all of these I am able to help my clients diagnose where their weaknesses are or their challenges are, leverage the strengths that they have, but also work with the other variables like what I mentioned: in-person, remote, digital/paper and help them just make changes to their habits, make changes to their systems so that they can work more productivity and more effectively.   Sharon: And so, do you help them? Because a lot of times I think it's not that people—they realize that they need this system. Lawyers need—everybody needs systems, but especially lawyers because they're working so quickly most of the time. They need systems, but it's like, “I don't have time to stop and put that together.” So, is that what you do?   Sarah: Yeah, so when I meet with clients initially—I work with clients three ways. One is via coaching, so that's usually one-on-one or very small groups and I have three-month, six-month packages where I meet with clients and what I do there in the beginning is I have a self-assessment I send them that I've created and I have them rate themselves on different statements that are in this assessment and then I take and I rearrange it into a scorecard by various categories that are some of the variables we think of for productivity. So, we have some goals established because—why are we being more productive? Why do we want to be more productive? What are we not accomplishing or what are we missing out on or what's the feeling we have that this is something that we feel we want to improve upon. So I'm measuring goals; I'm measuring their organization; I'm measuring their well-being, their emails and then things like perfectionism, analysis/paralysis, procrastination, what kind of distractions they experience, what kinds of interruptions they experience and I'm measuring all of that, turning it into a scorecard and we meet in the beginning for an hour and a half to really dive into who they are, again what their strengths are and what their challenges are and then I kind of create a road map, so if it is a six-month coaching client, I have a general idea of where we're going for six months. I meet weekly with my clients and what I say to them is, “This is not my journey. This is your journey. I'm here to support you and help you” and so each week we make micro-changes, really, really micro-changes which is why I prescribe usually a six-month engagement weekly for 45 minutes because we're going to work usually the organization first—let's get you a little bit more organized mentally and physically. So, are you getting things out of your head? Do you have a system to put those thoughts, ideas, assets, projects, tasks, to-do's because without having a system set up, you're too afraid to let them out of your head.” So, I'm helping them first to set that up and then from there we move into some of those issues that I talked about and that's what can take the six months or longer to build these healthier habits. I'm not coming in and saying, “Day one, oh my gosh, you need to set up all these systems and you need to turn off your email and you need to do this and that and that. No, no, no, we're going to do it in a slower paced but we'll effectuate long-term changing growth.” And the last piece I was going to say on that was—I forgot. I had one more piece to say on that, but--   Sharon: When it comes back to you, you'll bring it up. So, you mentioned a couple of issues. What are the top three issues you see that are stumbling blockings for lawyers and also impede their business development? I know that you've worn the marketing hat, so you see how the productivity—you could at least be more productive so that you would have more time for business development I presume.   Sarah: Yeah, yeah, well, from a higher level what I see a lot that affects productivity in a firm—I'll talk about the firm first—I would say communication issues. That is email—and I just remembered my other train of thought by the way too--   Sharon: Please.   Sarah: I'll derail, and you can fit it in as you see fit, but I started to say there are three ways I service my clients and then I went way off on the coaching way. So, the other two ways in which I service clients is I do a lot of speaking and a lot of training. That might look like a small team, or it might look like a firm one. I've done firm-wide trainings where they bring lawyers, legal assistants, operations team, finance team, everyone to the table and I've done firm-wide trainings and then the third way I service my clients is email and digital management. I train a lot on email and not just how to use email, but our habits around emails. I connect people's habits to the technology so that busy professionals can be in control of their email because that is a huge, huge distraction piece through the day. So, the top three kind of high-level things that I see that inhibit productivity within a law firm are communication and that's giving projects over Slack, email, constant firing of email, ineffective emails or inefficient emails, volume of emails and then when we are in the office, a lot of just random projects being shouted out while walking by people's desks and so we are getting tasks and to-do's from too many mediums. That's one challenge I see on a firm level.     A second challenge that I see on a firm level is disorganization and so sometimes, whether electronically or digitally or the paper file can be disorganized, there are things that need to be in the file that should be in the file that are missing that can lead to a lot of lost time, especially when it's crunch time and we need original signatures or we're trying to locate a document or a version and we're unable to do so. That leads to a lot of challenges at a firm-wide level in productivity.   And the third one at a firm-wide level that can lead to inefficient use of time is a lack of policies or procedures and I find that a lot in firms that just don't really have a lot of procedures implemented where lawyers are doing a lot of admin, non-billable, non-captured time because there's just either no one else to go to ask or they're unclear or there's no—for lack of a better word—ramifications for some of the support staff saying, “I'm too busy. I'm not going to do it” instead, “Let me support you as the billable lawyer and find the answer or get someone who can help me help you” and I'm finding more and more in firms that that level of service internally has dissipated a little bit which is leading to a lack of productivity on a firm-wide level.   Sharon: Who calls you in? Is it managing partners, the marketing director? Who calls you in?   Sarah: All of the above. So sometimes it's the individual. They see in themselves that they can benefit working with me and oftentimes they want to do it confidentially which of course is fine with me if they're the ones reaching out. I try to encourage them if they can get firm support. If they increase their billable hours, maybe the firm will help pay for some of my services, but sometimes it's a very vulnerable place and they're just not quite ready to admit to the firm that they might need help in that area, although I will share it's very, very common for many lawyers to benefit from working with someone like me and just helping them in the day to day. I also get brought in by either managing partner level or executive director level, somewhere around there. Usually that's for either the firm-wide training or someone is being challenged at this level and we'd like you to work with them and marketing people also bring me in. I mentioned that I was in-house marketing and business development manager. I have been very involved with the Legal Marketing Association in the Bay Area for about six years now. So sometimes the marketing professional is the one bringing me in partially because of my involvement in LMA and partially because, as you even brought up yourself, Sharon, marketers are challenged with lawyers who need to find time to do the business development and marketing and oftentimes what they hear is, “I didn't have time for that,” but in reality what we know that wasn't a priority right now and so sometimes the marketers will come to me mostly for training, not so much saying, “We want you to work with this person, can you come in.” Me being the voice to let the attorneys knows the importance of finding time to develop business and sometimes the lawyers just need to hear it from someone other than their internal marketer to then go, “Oh my gosh, that's just such a great idea” or “I see where I have gaps in my daily practice and the need to grow my book of business.”   Sharon: So where do you encounter the most resistance? I can see a lot of places, but if you're brought in, who might feel the most threatened or--   Sarah: Sometimes if I'm being brought on by a stakeholder to work with a junior person on their team, sometimes I'm met with resistance by the person in the beginning. Almost always within a few sessions, they have opened up and find it incredibly beneficial to their practice, but it's a tricky situation because as that person, I can appreciate that you're being exposed to say, “Hey, we think you need to work with a productivity coach” and that can be a really confusing and scary situation and also the first thought is, “Am I going to get fired? Am I not developing enough here at the firm? Am I going to advance at this firm?” And ironically if the firm is reaching out to me, almost always what they're telling me confidentially, but before I meet with the individual, they see a ton of value in that person. They see a potential in that person. They want to invest in that person and that's usually where in the beginning, there's a little bit of insecurity that gets developed by the individual because they think, “I'm being asked to work with Firm Focus” because they don't see potential in me” and in fact it's usually the reverse. They see a lot of potential and they want to invest in the one area that they see as a challenge for that person so that then they can grow in the firm.   Sharon: No, I can see how that would be unsettling to the person at first, but the message for the firm really is—they're not going to invest in somebody they think they want out the door in a few months.   Sarah: Exactly.   Sharon: So that would be quite in a sense almost—I'm sure I'd feel if somebody came to me and said, “Oh my god, we want you to work this,” I'd feel like, “Oh my god, what am I doing wrong,” but at the same time, it's such a compliment in so many ways to have them bring you in to work with somebody. When we were talking before, tell us about some of your successes. I know you mentioned something about tremendously reducing the amount of emails they have. Tell us a little bit about that.   Sarah: Yeah, I get very excited on this topic because I developed a system; it's called the Art Email Productivity System, ARTT. So just to step back for a moment, Sharon, in life, in anything we do—and if you think I need to cook dinner; I need to go grocery shopping; I need to draft a brief—anything we do, there are five D's. We can do it right now; it's going to take me two to five minutes and I'm going to do it. We can delay it. I'm going to do it in the future. We can delegate it. I'm going to ask somebody else to do it. We can diminish it, take a big, big project and break it down or we can delete it, not do it. Those are our choices. So, in developing ARTT, as I mentioned before, I train a person's habits to match the technology because when the engineers developed email that we all use every single day, they created the tools within the software to support our habits, but no one ever really teaches us what our habits are and so that's where I find a lot of my clients use things like flags. Flags are, “This is really important, and I must do it and I can't lose it and I shouldn't forget about it” or “I need to do this in the future, so I'm going to flag it and tell Outlook or GSuite to remind me of it in three days, five days, seven days.” We use things like, “Unread, I have an action to do. I still need to do something on this email” or “Read, I don't have an action or it's a lower-priority action,” but like I said, we're never really taught how to efficiently use the software, use the tools and use the technology and so that's where I come in with ARTT.     ARTT is action, reference, tracking, trash and that's because I force my clients—I teach them what their habits are as they relate to those five Ds in the ARTT system and then I teach them the habit of touch once or mostly touch once. So, you get an email. You instantly decide is this something I need to do? Is this something I need to do in the future? Is it something I'm waiting for something back to unlock some bottlenecks? Is it something I don't need to do anything on, but I want to save it? Is it something I don't need do anything on and I don't want to save it?     And so, then what do you do with that email? And what it has done for—I teach a workshop; I do a public workshop, a two-hour workshop and that comes with a one-hour private session because I'm not coming and saying, “O.K., Sharon, here is how you need to set up your inbox.” What I do is I go in, and I ask the right questions so that your inbox is set up to support your line of business, your way of thinking and it's going to look different than John's. It's going to look different than Susan's. It's going to look different than mine and so the one-hour private session is where my clients share their inbox with me after they've gone through the workshop, and we set up the system fully and I have had many people come out of this system with a volume of email just sitting in their inbox and in the lower side maybe 12,000 emails or some-where between 5,000 and 12,000 emails. The highest was someone who had a million emails in her inbox and after implementing this system, the new habit, the new way of thinking, they finished most days with zero to maybe 20 emails in their inbox because it's making you do something with the email, not just letting it sit there and overwhelm you and not only that, the volume of email coming in reduces by implementing this system as well because you start to become very aware of what's coming into your inbox. I teach them to batch think by project or by what your behavior is with that type of email so that you can see how many future obligations you've maybe thought that you would do like, “I'm going to read all of these digests. I'm going to watch all of these replays. I'm going to listen to all of these podcasts” and now I'm forcing you to reduce decision fatigue and be intentional on what is important to you to design your proactive day and to mitigate the overwhelm. Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent on that, but I love it.   Sharon: No, no. Well, I guess what I was thinking is it sounds fabulous. I think everybody would benefit from something like this, especially lawyers with that volume of email. Let me ask you this: When you talk about inefficient email—this just came back to me. I remember when I used to work in a different lifetime at Arthur Anderson and I remember a partner who he got so annoyed about people saying, “Thanks for your message. Received your message” and he felt like, “Why are people sending me these emails?” What are your thoughts about something like that? I'm just really curious.   Sarah: Yeah, so we see that all the time and on the one hand, in the ideal world, when we're communicating back and forth, a great thing to always try to add is, “Thanks in advance for your response” because you don't feel the need to send a thank you on the back end. That being said, we can't always train—we can train some people, “please don't send these types of responses;” others we can't and so that's another way that my system is effective because now it's a click of that delete button. You got it; you received it; it took you a second to read it, but you don't really need that piece of the thread anymore. So yes, sometimes it's trainable. If it's internally or maybe if you have a really great relationship with the client, you might be say, “I appreciate your thanks. You don't need to send those. I know you appreciate my response.” If I could elaborate on this for just a second though, another one we see all of the time, “Hi, Sharon, we should really talk about this report. Let me know when you're available.”  No, no, no, “Hi, Sharon, we should really talk about this report. I've got time tomorrow between 12:00 and 2:00 or Friday any time before noon. What works with your schedule?” I see this a lot where we punt the next action to the next person. It's a way of avoiding making the decision or bothering to look at your own calendar for a minute, but you'll see a response, “Yes, that sounds good. Let me know when you want to meet” and then that goes back and forth. So, if you are proposing to connect with somebody about something, give them some options of when it works for you to connect.   Sharon: No, I think that's so important. It makes such a difference in the response you get if you say to somebody here are some times or some days as opposed to—no, that can just take forever.     Sarah: Sharon, can I say on more thing on that topic too?   Sharon: Please.   Sarah: From a client development standpoint as well, I'll let you in on a little secret. What I have found is when I'm reaching out to a potential client, I have my systems in place to follow up with them maybe in six weeks and the six-week day comes up and I know that that feeling many of us get where we go, “Oh, that's right. Here's this reminder. I need to reach back out to Susan today” and we go, “I don't know what necessarily to write at the moment,” but when you reach back out to them, if it's via email—certainly if it's via call, that's great—but it's by an email, what I have found is that if you say, “Hi, Susan,” all of the salutations that you're going to give and then you say, “Here are some times this week or next week that we can connect. Let me know if those work for you” instead of just, “Let me know if you'd like to connect if I can be of further help.” If you give specific times when you reach out, the likelihood of that person to respond increases and if they don't respond and you're waiting a day or two and you to follow up again, then you say, “Hi Susan, I know you're extremely busy. I wanted to update my availability for you. Here are some times.” Then I actually find that they respond quicker to get some time on your calendar. So, it also leaves an open gate for you to be able to respond again to update that availability if you haven't heard back from the person that you've reached out to.   Sharon: I like that a lot about updating availability because a lot of times it's like you give them and they'd say, “Don't respond. It's past” and you say, “Well, when do you want to talk?” One thing just before we end I wanted to ask you because you talk a lot about these habits and I think most people who are in a law firm at some point have taken a productivity class or time management class or whatever and what you're talking about, they're great ideas, but I can't say that they're like nobody's ever heard them before. I think it's the habits. Over six months, are you circling back with the client to just check on the habit or what's going on?   Sarah: Yeah, so I meet weekly, and they say it takes anywhere from 50 days to 365 days—don't quote me on the exact number—to build a habit. The 21-day habit, that's based on a response to plastic surgery that was blown out of the water and not accurate. It takes time to develop habits, good habits. Bad habits, they just develop right away. You start eating chocolate cake at 5:00 every day, you're going to eat chocolate cake at 5:00 every day. So good habits take time to develop which is why I'm meeting weekly for 45 minutes and then many of my clients, whatever that new habit is that we're introducing—again, they're micro; they're really small. So, I might for example introduce, “This week, let's start your shutdown routine. Now, instead of looking at what you need to in the morning or just reacting to everything that's coming at one, the night before, having a clear understanding of what you will get done the next day is a crucial part of being productive and staying focused.” And so that might be a habit that we're starting to develop as we meet this week and we're building upon it for a few weeks and talking about other things as well, but that might be the one thing that we're doing, “How did it go last week? Do we need to refine? Do we need to change the time that you're doing shutdown routine? Are you giving yourself enough time to do the shutdown routine” and then maybe that's developed and we're three months later into coaching and we're working on another issue and they go, “Oh my gosh, I've not been doing the shutdown routine” or “I'm not doing it every day like I was when we first started doing it,” then we are going to lay the foundation for that again and build it again.     Most of the time though, as we're working together, these habits are sticking, and I encourage—some of my clients are good. We meet once a week and then the next week and the micro-homework, they've done the homework; they are learning so much; they're being more organized; they're getting more done; they're billing more hours. Others send me a text every day of the top three things that they're going to focus on that day and it's just that extra layer of accountability and I'll usually respond with, “Looks good” or I might check in with them later or if I notice the next day that something that was written the day before is written again, I'll usually ask them, “Did you not have time to do it yesterday or are you just continuing to work on that one thing?” So, I'll usually communicate with them even outside of our weekly meeting and find out why am I seeing the same project day after day or I will talk about it at our next session if it's a bigger, deeper issue than just over a quick check in.   Sharon: I'll give you a final, final question because I can hear a lot of listeners going, “Sarah, that's really great and what you're saying is really great, but you don't understand. Any partner can walk in at any minute and partners walk into my office all day and throw another project at me that I didn't have in the morning, and you just don't understand how it works exactly.” What do you say?   Sarah: Absolutely, I wish I had my hour-long From Frazzle to Focus presentation because I really lay it out in that presentation, but the short answer is it absolutely happens all of the time and it's still crucial to know what the top things are that you need to focus on each day. So you go, “I need to work on this summary judgment brief. I need to get this letter out.  I need to get three subpoenas out” and as long as you know what the top three things are you need to do—and I'm kind of giving two different paths to this answer; there are two different paths. On the one hand, you know what the top priorities are that you need to work on and so when the partner does not and say, “I need you to do and work on this and it needs to be today,” you can then know what things on your own list can be bumped or needs to be bumped because you're going to have to bump something. So, can the letter get out the next day or can you delegate it? Can you break it down? You were going to spend four hours on a summary judgment brief, but now you can only spend two hours on the summary judgment brief because you need to do this other project. So, the one pathway answer is knowing your priorities so that you know how to shift them when other needs arise.     The second pathway answer is here's that procrastination. So, you get in in the morning and what I see too often is we don't know what those priorities are; we haven't written them down or identified them. We know we need to work in the summary judgment brief. We know we need to get a letter out. Oh, we got the subpoenas we need to get it, but we spend time doing the small, piddly tasks. We get caught up in email, slap chit-chatting. We get point one and point three done and then when it's time to get down to business and start working on the summary judgment brief, that's when the partner has interrupted you and needs you to do something more important and so you get that anxious feeling. You don't feel accomplished. You feel frazzled and the reality is had you know your priorities and immediately in the morning mitigated all other distractions and interruptions and started to work on that summary judgment brief, when you were interrupted, you would still feel like you accomplished that you needed to do that and not blame the partner for interrupting you and then of course let me talk to that partner about how they can manage their projects a little bit better so that they're not coming to you with urgent needs.     Sharon: No, that's really great. I'm sure everybody's going, “O.K.” I'm sure you've given people some ideas to think about. There's also the reality of, “Oh yeah, how is that partner going to react when I tell him, ‘Listen, I have other things I have to do,' but I'm sure you have tips for that. Thank you so much for being here today and talking with us. You gave us some great ideas, Sarah. I really, really appreciate it.   Sarah: It was such a pleasure, Sharon. Thank you for having me and I would love to come talk with you again anytime.   Sharon: Sounds wonderful, thank you.   END OF AUDIO

In this week's episode, Sarah and Areej chat to Natalie Mott, freelance SEO consultant, about all things core web vitals. We also find out what inspires Natalie and what empowers her to be the brilliant woman she is today. Where to find Natalie: Twitter: https://twitter.com/njmott LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalie-mott/ Core Web Vitals Resources: https://web.dev/ (https://web.dev/) - All Google's guidance on Core Web Vitals https://web.dev/chrome-ux-report-data-studio-dashboard/ (https://web.dev/chrome-ux-report-data-studio-dashboard/) - Google's own Data Studio dashboard for tracking stats from the CrUX report https://developers.google.com/speed/docs/insights/v5/get-started (https://developers.google.com/speed/docs/insights/v5/get-started) - Link PageSpeed Insights with ScreamingFrog to pull CrUX data for every page on your site as you crawl https://developer.chrome.com/docs/devtools/ (https://developer.chrome.com/docs/devtools/) - use Chrome DevTools to drill down and work out which parts of your page are affecting your CWV scores. In particular, if you are looking to see what part of the page has the LCP, or when a Layout Shift is occurring, you can use Performance > Show Web Vitals to pinpoint where this is happening https://corewebvitals.iprospect.com/ (https://corewebvitals.iprospect.com/) - a good summary of the state of play in every industry from iProspect https://reddico.co.uk/tools/serp-speed/ (https://reddico.co.uk/tools/serp-speed/) - check how you and competitors are performing for Core Web Vitals on a keyword level --- Episode Sponsor Massive shout out to DeepCrawl for supporting the WTSPodcast and sponsoring this episode. DeepCrawl offers the complete end-to-end technical SEO platform with the tools and integrations you need to grow — detecting technical improvements that will help you drive growth, and protecting your website from harmful code through SEO testing automation. Where to find DeepCrawl: Website - https://www.deepcrawl.com/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/deepcrawl Twitter - https://twitter.com/DeepCrawl Facebook - https://facebook.com/deepcrawlHD --- Episode Transcript Sarah: Hello and welcome to the Women in Tech SEO podcast, where your hosts are myself, Sarah McDowell, SEO Content Executive at Holland and Barrett, and the delightful Areej AbuAli, who is a SEO Consultant and the Founder of the epic Women in Tech SEO community. This week, we have the wonderful Natalie Mott joining us, who is an SEO all-rounder with core interests in technical SEO, content strategy, project management and outreach. She has had senior SEO positions at several digital agencies and is thoroughly enjoying spending time in the world of freelance consultant. A very warm welcome and hello to the both of you. This episode is sponsored by DeepCrawl. DeepCrawl offers the complete end-to-end technical SEO platform with the tools and integrations you need to grow. Detecting technical improvements that will help you drive growth and protecting your website from harmful code through SEO testing automation. Discover just how deep pools technical SEO platform can help you increase your search performance and revenue by visiting their website: deepcrawl.com. You can also follow them on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. Sarah: Thank you so much for spending your Saturday morning with me and Areej. Very, very appreciative. How are we doing? How's  your morning been? Natalie: Quite productive, actually quite got up early. Had a good, good breakfast. That's a bit unusual for Saturday to be honest, but yeah, it was going very well. How about yourself? Areej: Yeah, all good. All good over here. I'm just really, really excited to have you here with us. We've met several times, since the very start of the Women in Tech SEO community. But I'd love you to tell the community, a bit more about you. So how

My name is Sarah Chapman. I’ve been married for almost 20 years to my husband, Trent, together we have 5 children and live in Lehi, Utah. I am an author of two books, “MindStrength for Women” and “Underneath it all.....You’re Naked” Both of these books were written after a very hard period of time in life. One was about my physical journey to coming back to myself and the other is my sexuality journey of overcoming my judgment about sex to becoming more curious. I went about teaching women about sexual health for 2 years and mainly surrounding the female sexual response cycle. I taught women that you can’t find freedom in your understanding of your sexuality until you have overcome the deep rooted beliefs about sex. I found my own freedom from it that is why I wrote a book about it. Now my focus is on creating a community of women where we come together weekly to share the physical, mental and sexual aspects of our lives and have meaningful discussions with a workbook followed by an exercise class. Because movement creates emotion. You can find me: Instagram : @mindstrength.for.women MindStrength for Women Facebook Group Email: sarah@mindstrengthmentor.com   Full Transcript:  00:00 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.   [music]   00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. On today’s episode we have Sarah Chapman, who is an author; and we’re excited to review her book with her today and kinda learn her journey to getting to this book. Sarah, welcome to the show.   00:44 Sarah: Thank you for having me, Daniel. I appreciate this, it’s really exciting.   00:48 Daniel: I’m very excited. As someone who’s writing a book, I also 1) kinda selfishly learn your journey, (mine’s been a very difficult one). And, so I may get a little selfish in my inquiries here--but more importantly, I’m curious to hear more about you. Who are you as a wife, as a person, as a mother? Tell us a little about yourself and what got you to this point.   01:12 Sarah: Sure, love to. So, I (we), Trent and I, my husband and I, will be going on 19 years of marriage this September. I have 5 children, I currently live in Utah. We lived in California for a time, actually, in San Diego area actually. Miss that place, for sure. But, yeah, I first basically grew up in an LDS home and I grew up in a family with 8 children, and I’m 6th of the 8. [...] In our home we didn’t talk about anything remotely close to our bodies. We were very surface type of family. We didn’t really talk about hard things. I wouldn’t say that we were an authentic family. But, at the same time, I did feel loved by my parents and I felt that they were providing me with a really great education, secularly as well as spiritually. And so, I didn’t feel like I was necessarily neglected in the way I was thinking.    02:29 Sarah: However, growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I’d run around with some friends who were sexually active and seeing the naive young teenager that I was, I kinda looked at them and viewed them as people who were naughty girls, right? And so, I remember church lessons here and there. It wasn’t very often, but I do remember those specific metaphors that were shared. I actually did get the “chewed up piece of gum” kind of analogy, which maybe a lot of your audience here might have gotten.   03:10 Daniel: Oh…(sarcastically) excellent. Yeah.   03:13 Sarah: You know? And then I also just really created a lot of...I would just look at the word sex and just immediately think that it was just this dirty thing. However, there was also this other part of me that was being told that it was this sacred thing, and you don’t talk about it, right? And so I was just kinda like this....back and forth in my head about like, “what is this?” Sure, I had boyfriends in high school and I do remember getting close a couple times where I feel like my body was in a state of arousal. Obviously I didn’t know what it was, because I didn’t know my body then. But looking back, I’m like, “Oh, that’s what that tingling sensation was when I was getting close to that boy, oh! Okay, right.”    04:06 Sarah: I can say that now, but at the time, as a teenager, I didn’t at all. And I never (like when I would shower and stuff), like I would just hurry and shower really quick and then get out. I never wanted to self-pleasure or anything, at all. I didn’t even know my body. And so, come the time of marriage, the night before I’m to be married, my mom thinks it’s a great time to talk about sex. She pulls me aside and she basically asked me, “You’re gonna have sex tomorrow night, right?” and I was like, “well, I guess…”. I mean, I kinda remember my teenage years back in high school telling me that a penis goes inside a vagina, but then I was like...I plugged my ears like “I don’t wanna hear this, I don’t wanna hear this!” I just kinda ignored what they were gonna tell me. I knew just that fact: that a penis goes into a vagina and that was it. My mom was like, “Well, here’s a book. Go ahead and read this book.” And it was the book from...is it called, Between Husband and Wife by Lamb? Dr. Lamb?   05:14 Daniel: Oh yeah, oh yeah. 05:15 Sarah: Yeah, it was that book. And I was like, “Mom, I don’t have time to read this book.” And she’s like, “Well, you’ll eventually refer back to it.” And that was it. That was my sex talk from my mom. I was just basically thrown into the fire the night of my wedding. It was very traumatic. Very long, exhausting night as any honeymooners would imagine, who had never had sex before, trying to figure things out, trying to figure out our bodies. Anyways, it was just a mess. And I called my mom the next day, just in tears, like, “I just got married and this just happened to me.” I didn’t go into detail with her because we don’t...we don’t talk about details or anything like that. But I really wanted to, like, it was like this cry for help. Like, “why didn’t you tell me these things? Why didn’t you help me to understand how my body works in this way? That it’s supposed to be designed for this?” Anyway. That’s just kinda the cycle that happened for I’d say the first 16 years of my marriage. That was the only thing we really fought about in our marriage, was sex. It wasn’t money or anything, it was always about sex.   06:42 Daniel: You mean, the issues were always about sex? 06:45 Sarah: The issues, yeah. 06:46 Daniel: Okay. 06:47 Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. The issues around sex. He would always try to approach me and help to try to fix me, right? Because of course he wanted a decent experience, too. But, at the same time, I was looking at him like, “Oh...this is all you want. You just want my body.” And that was it. I viewed myself as this tool for him.   07:09 Daniel: So let me pause you right there. What you just stated was big! It was huge. So, you viewed yourself as a tool for him to get satisfied, is that what you’re saying? 07:22 Sarah: Exactly, yeah.   07:24 Daniel: And that was because of…   07:25 Sarah: You know, because I never...I never wanted to receive that pleasure for myself. Because I once again thought it was like...I thought I was a bad girl if I did that, right? So, even when I did have an orgasm, I’d immediately feel guilty every single time afterwards because of this shame that I’d created in my head about me having pleasure. So then, I viewed him as, “oh, he’s just using my body, and sex is for him, and orgasm is something that he just needs all the time.” 08:03 Daniel: I wanna explore that a little bit, if you’re okay with it. I know you bring it up in indirect ways, in fact, in your book Underneath it All... and I apologize to the audience, I didn’t mention the name of your book, Underneath it All...You’re Naked. I love that title by the way, I think it’s excellent.   08:18 Sarah: Thank you   08:19 Daniel: And your subtitle is “shedding light on misconceptions about sex from a Christian wife to Christian women.” But what you said right there was, you couldn’t allow yourself to experience pleasure. If you’re okay with that, let’s explore that a little bit more. You’re not the first to say this on my podcast and I hear it a lot from clients. What did it mean to you to experience pleasure? You’re married now, you knew clearly beforehand that (or, atleast, your value system says that) before marriage, I’m not gonna experience this. You’re saying: you jump in the shower, you get out as fast as you can because you didn’t want to self-stimulate or do anything wrong.   08:56 Sarah: Yep   08:57 Daniel: So now you’re married. What was the barrier for you in allowing yourself to experience that joy?   09:08 Sarah: Well, I think you’re basically asking what kinda shifted that focus for me? 09:16 Daniel: Well, what continued? A lot of men will get into relationships, they know they’re not supposed to pleasure before marriage but now they’re in marriage and they’re willing to let it all go--kinda the dynamic you just explained with you and your husband.   09:28 Sarah: Yeah.   09:29 Daniel: But, what prevented you, I guess...maybe, is it a shift? I guess that’s the question I’m asking you is, is it a shift? Or, it seemed more like though, you carried this perspective: “I’m not allowed to have sexual pleasure even in marriage.” Which seems incongruent with the thoughts and beliefs you had before marriage. What was the barrier to...I mean, you saw your husband having pleasure, did that peak your interest and say, “How can I have that pleasure?” or was it this continued, “I can’t have this. It’s too shameful, it’s too hurtful.” 10:04 Sarah: No, it was definitely too hurtful to me. I would just, lay there. I always like to say I’d lay there like a dead fish, maybe you’ve heard that term before. I would just allow him to just do whatever he wanted to my body. You know? And I was really good at faking orgasm. It was definitely something just to get him off me as soon as I could, right? Because I just felt dirty the whole time, when he was on me. It’s amazing how much conditioning that I had created in my head, and this belief that really ate away at my soul. To know that this shame enveloped my whole body and created a wedge in my marriage to where I looked at him as somebody that just used me. You know?    11:10 Daniel: So, I’m really curious. What took you from that experience to what you say on page 56? It’s this idea of being able to embrace very differently. Practice patience, self-compassion, and have a sense of humor about it. That seems like a complete 180 shift.    11:29 Sarah: Yeah. 11:30 Daniel: What was the journey you had from what you’re experiencing, that “pleasure is painful and icky” to this wonderful perspective of even having a sense of humor about it? What led you there?   11:41 Sarah: Well, not an overnight thing. I’ll just say that right now. [laughs] It definitely was, you know, I had this moment--this wake-up call. Sixteen years in, I was fed up. Basically telling myself over and over and over, “Sarah why can’t you figure this out? Why is this so hard for you? Why can’t you just get over this? Why do you look at sex in this perspective?” Just this why, why why. I finally had this moment of surrender. I didn’t talk to anybody, Daniel. I suffered in silence for years. I didn’t talk to my sisters, definitely not my mom, right? Not even my girlfriends, nobody. 12:30 Daniel: That’s what we’re taught. We’re taught to not even talk to our loved one’s about it, even our spouse.   12:34 Sarah: Exactly, exactly. And of course, then Trent would ask, my husband would ask me, “what is it you want?” And I’m like, “well, I don’t know what i want.” I’ve never allowed myself to have conversations and talk about it. He would just ask me question after question to open my mind and see the possibility and then I’d shut him down all the time, right? It was just this constant battle. So finally, it was just this one day, I called Suzanne, right? I refer to her in my book a lot. She was this woman who I met randomly in Guatemala of all places. I just look back and I’m like, it was by divine design that I would meet her that summer of 2017 so that she could open my eyes.   13:20 Daniel: I actually love what you said about Suzanne, is that she started her journey because of romance novels. I like that.   13:29 Sarah: Yeah. I’m not a big romance novel kind of girl but you know, some people are. Anyway we got to talking. We literally...our airbnbs were literally across from each other. I didn’t know Spanish, she didn’t know Spanish, it was a Sunday afternoon, we had nothing else to do--so we got to know each other. And we literally...like, she just opened up to me. We talked about our sex lives, and this ws the very first time I was like, this is a really fun conversation! It was the first time I actually looked at it with clear eyes to see the potential in me and the hope. Because she had already kinda gone through her own little journey, because she was basically me. She gave me hope to look at it with a different set of eyes. I went from a place of--this is where I talk a lot about, in my book--this view of going from a judgement place to being more curious. She allowed me, she gave me permission. It’s interesting how as women, we need permission, you know? 14:44 Daniel: What I’m curious though, is, what was it about Suzanne that allowed you to open up? you have been fighting this for so many years.   14:52 Sarah: Yeah.   14:53 Daniel: What prevented you from putting up another barrier? “Nope, I’m not talking about that, that’s betraying my husband, that’s betraying myself…”   14:57 Sarah: That’s true.   14:58 Daniel: What was it about her that allowed you to open up?    15:03 Sarah: Good question.   15:04 Daniel: I think that’s the biggest thing with women is finding that opportunity and how, because they get into this same place where “I can’t talk about this and I won’t talk about it and I don’t care how familiar I am with you”--so what was it about her>   15:15 Sarah: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I had been studying and learning about...I love Brené Brown, and at that point in my life I’d really been learning vulnerability and authenticity. When she just started talking to me and exposing herself to me, I was .... she gave me permission to therefore share my things, right? There’s power when you can start a conversation and be like, “I’m messed up.” You know? “Here’s all these parts of me that I don’t understand, can you help me kinda walk through this?”    15:53 Sarah: And that’s what she was for me, you know? And I think that’s what really created that safe place for me. She was like my safe place, because we could relate on so many levels, right? And I think when there’s vulnerability and authenticity in any friendship or relationship, there’s definitely power behind that--to be able to know, “hey, I’m not alone. We can do this together.” And I feel like that’s kinda what I’ve been doing now...you know, here’s my mess and I’m creating it into a message and helping other women to understand “you’re not alone. You’re not broken. There’s hope for you.” And I think that’s what's beautiful about this. And that’s what made that shift for me, is to allow myself to just open up, receive the information from this trusted (well, quick-trusted friend, right? I’d just met her) and just share all of me with her. It was quite an experience, that was for sure.   17:00 Daniel: So it sounds like Brené Brown gave you that courage,    17:04 Sarah: Yeah, exactly.   17:04 Daniel: that platform, or, not platform, kinda that foundation that it’s okay to be vulnerable here. But what I think is important for the audience to be aware of is, you’re still really new in your journey. This was very recently. So, you went to, on that trip back in, if I remember right, 2017? 17:20 Sarah: 2017, yeah. 17:21 Daniel: So you’re only like, three years into this. 17:25 Sarah: Yeah. 17:25 Daniel: That is phenomenal! You cranked out a book in sharing your journey. That’s...   17:31 Sarah: Yeah. 17:32 Daniel: So, emotionally, what is that like for you right now? So, kinda step away from the book and this narrative. You really are, in the context of people who are learning themselves, you’re really at the beginning of this journey. So, emotionally, what are you going through right now?   17:52 Sarah: Emotionally, I mean, you know what? I started it...I just consumed as much information as I could. I finally got to this place where I could..   18:06 Daniel: Do you feel like you’re a lot more confident? Or do you feel like you still have a lot of insecurities or vulnerabilities around it? Where do you feel like you’re at? 18:15 Sarah: I totally feel confident in my sexuality now, and that I can say that--I wouldn’t say 100%, for sure--I’m still learning and growing and I think that’s what’s great about understanding your sexuality because it’s going to always evolve and change because there’s just more things we’re gonna find out about ourselves. But, oh man, just to think about where I’ve...even just two years ago...to where I am now, and being able to have emotional connection with my husband, and him understanding how me, as a woman, how I work. And, you know, he takes the time to emotionally connect with me before even getting into the bedroom, you know? And understanding how my body needs to go through this sexual response cycle, which, I talk about that in my book. There’s a lot of therapists out there that talk about the different sexual response cycles that we go through, right? 19:20 Daniel: Exactly. 19:21 Sarah: And just, understanding that.   19:22 Daniel: So you gave yourself permission to get here so that you can help your husband understand your body because in the past, you know, he’s asking what you want, and as you said, you’re there as a dead fish. Just, finish it out. 19:33Sarah: Yeah. 19:34 Daniel: That, I think, is critical. Like I posted in our Improving Intimacy group today this idea of, especially with women, “okay, I’ve given myself permission, now it’s scary.” Was it scary to give yourself permission? Were you afraid of what you discovered? 19:50 Sarah: Oh, yeah! Yeah. So, of course, we’re going to have those fears. It’s part of our human nature, especially when we’ve created so much judgement and shame around it. There’s going to be fear that comes up. And there’s definitely going to be things that we might come across we don’t quite understand, or we definitely judge really quickly, right?    20:18 Sarah: Masturbation being one of them for me. That was a huge, like...I didn’t want to enter that specific subject until I felt comfortable in my body first, and learning the anatomy of my body first, before I could venture into that. So I feel like it’s a series of stepping stones. You kinda have to evolve into and work into. As I started reading all these books, that’s kind of what happened after I met with Suzanne, she gave me a couple books to read--and from there, I just took off. I was like, thirsting for knowledge for the first time in sex. Once I’d read one book, I went to the next book, and then I went to the next book. Just reading so much content that I could get my hands on. It was this, like, basically cry for help and just learning on my couch from all different kinds of therapists and sex experts and human sexuality professors and so many things, and I just was like, “oh my gosh! I’m finally in a place where I can receive this!” And yes, there’s gonna be content out there, once again, that we just kinda have to like, pick and choose, I don’t know, what resonates with you? 21:39 Daniel: I think that’s...I wanna ask you about that.    21:43 Sarah: Sure.   21:44 Daniel: But before I do, I really appreciate you addressing, briefly, in your book, about masturbation. You give a context for it, the history behind it, the fears around it. 21:51 Sarah: Yeah. 21:52 Daniel: What was that journey for you? You’re addressing that fear, you’re realizing, “okay, I need to understand myself.” Some wives feel like, “okay, I do need to figure out my body, but I will not do it without my husband present.    22:05 Sarah: Yeah.    22:06 Daniel: What was it like for you? Did you find that it was more valuable to do it alone so that you could do it without pressure? Or was it important for you to explore that with your spouse? 22:15 Sarah: So, in the beginning, I chose to explore with my husband. And it’s still a work in progress, Daniel [laughs], it’s still kinda like...I’m not fully 100% like going off by myself all the time, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like, it’s kinda going back to this stepping stone thing. I start with my husband to understand, and know, and feel comfortable, and then [...] it’s still just something that I know, I KNOW--that’s the crazy part, I KNOW--that it’s beneficial for me to know what feels good and what doesn’t, you know?    22:56 Daniel: Absolutely.   22:57 Sarah: But then, the shame just creeps in. And I remember this one specific time, I was like, “okay, Sarah.” I was seriously coaching myself! “Okay, Sarah, we can do this. We can do this!” You know? 23:11 Daniel: And you’re talking about when you’re masturbating, you’re trying to... 23:14 Sarah: Yeah!   23:14 Daniel: ...to get into the headspace.   23:15 Sarah: Like, I’ll go and I’ll coach myself and like, I’ll breathe and everything. A really great book, Slow Sex, was really powerful for me, by the way. 23:24 Daniel: Okay, excellent. Excellent book.   23:25 Sarah: Just the breathing, and… yeah.   23:26 Daniel: I think a lot of...so, we’re speaking to an LDS audience or a Christian-based audience. Sometimes, that book isn’t received very well. She talks about a lot of--   23:37 Sarah: Yeah   23:38 Daniel: So, the audience--it’s an excellent book. Excellent book. It does venture into some concepts and ideas that I think are extremely helpful, but be aware, it is not a warning, but just be aware--you're not going out and getting, you know, an LDS book about how to understand your own sexuality. It’s a very raw and in-depth book. Excellent.   24:00 Sarah: Yeah. 24:01 Daniel: So, I think that’s, so that kinda leads me into my second question, or where we left off before I asked this question. There’s so many resources out there. Often, when people try to explore this route, they stay, you know they kind of follow that insecurity be staying on a very safe path of resources. I don’t wanna name any books, I don’t want anybody to feel like they’re being judged around it, but--   24:27 Sarah: Sure.   24:28 Daniel: How did you, for example, Emily Nagoski, that’s not an LDS author. How did you determine which books were good for you? Whether it’s Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, or Natasha [breaks off]   24:39 Sarah: Uh huh.   24:40 Daniel: What was your internal compass to decide, “this is helpful, this is good in my pursuit of my own sexuality, but being within the framework of my faith?” 24:51 Sarah: Sure. The thing is, when you go on Amazon, there’s going to be all kinds of reviews from all over, right? Of course I would read the reviews, that’s what most people do when they go searching for a book. but also, of course, having my friend Suzanne of course had already read a few. So I kinda had an understanding... 25:14 Daniel: [laughs]   25:15 Sarah: ...from some of the things, right? so then there’s also...I did go and actually look them up, not just about their book but just them as a person. I did some research on who they are and like, what are they teaching, what are they, like, out there, like, what’s their message, kind of thing. And so then I felt more comfortable to kinda open up and seek. And of course, I’d go to my city library, right? And go to the sexuality section and I’d just camp out and just kinda peruse books that way. That’s also helpful ‘cause it’s free. It’s not like I’m going to buy a book. But, there’s so many [pauses] there’s amazing people out there doing amazing things, and I just…   26:09 Daniel: So I guess, let me push a little on this, is--for example, with Slow Sex, what kept you from reading that and saying, “whoa. This is way outside of my value system.” 26:17 Sarah: [laughs]   26:18 Daniel: “I shouldn’t be reading this.” And we’re talking about, just three years ago, you’re Sarah who’s just now recognizing all the rigidity around your sexual understanding and lack of understanding with your sexuality.   26:31 Sarah: Yeah.   26:32 Daniel: What kept you from throwing that book aside and saying, “this is horrible”?   26:39 Sarah: Well, I know this sounds really simple, but what I kept coming back to all the time, Daniel, was “Sarah, quit judging it. Be more curious.” 26:50 Daniel: Not simple at all. That is beautiful.   26:54 Sarah: You know, that’s it. That’s all...and that’s what I had to tell myself all the time. “Sarah, you’re looking at oral sex and you’re judging it. How can I be more curious about how it can apply to me and my relationship in my intimate relationship with my husband?” Like, what does that look like, you know? And so [laughs] it really is simple. But it is so profound to me, and it’s carried me the last three years. And that’s why I really hone-in on it in my book. Waking up women to understand, “quit judging it so much,”   27:34 Daniel: Absolutely love it.   27:34 Sarah: “and look at it from a place of curiosity.”   27:35 Daniel: And I think you see that journey as you go through this, like, starting in...what chapter is this? Page 100 or so. You start talking about loving yourself from the inside out. And you do a full inventory: “what do I lack? What am I insecure about?” (I’m putting some of my own words to this, but…) you take the individual through this process and I think that’s key. absolutely key. So, yes, the answer is simple, but boy, the process can be painful. That’s something that I actually warn my clients when I do this similar type of self-inventory. I have them often review themselves: where did they start--I like the word you used, stop judging it, and just learn from it. And I have people start to do this, is “stop judging your body, in fact, look at yourself. You think you have a fat tummy, who told you that? Who defined that for you?”   28:28 Sarah: Exactly.   28:29 Daniel: “Who took away your agency to keep you from actually looking at yourself in the way you should? Who defined it?” And they’ll go through this emotional process, “oh my goodness, that first boy I dated, he made fun of me or he poked me in the tummy and ever since then, I’ve been insecure. I’m not gonna let that dude take away from my agency. I’m gonna choose how to view my body.” And you kinda do a similar thing here.   28:53 Sarah: Yeah. 28:54 Daniel: Tell us a little more about that.   28:55 Sarah: Yeah, so, this is actually my second book. [laughs] I wrote a book 5 years ago called, MindStrength for Women. And it was all about just loving ourselves and overcoming this idea that we’re not enough and we're not good enough, not smart enough, and all these things, right? Of course I, at that time, I did like, I’d learned a lot about myself. And so the crazy part to all that whole story was, I felt amazing and went through a physical change, emotional change, and all these other things, but I kept sex hidden up in the corner, you know? Like in this closet, you know? So when I actually brought sex in, into the light, right? Now I felt like I’d become this whole person, and then like, a wholly unique being.    29:54 Sarah: And I talk about this term called “sexy confidence” in my book, and how as women, it’s not so much about our body or anything of that nature. It’s about, how do we walk into a room, and how do we make people feel? What kind of energy are we bringing into the room? Is this a loving environment? And this is where I kinda had to do this with my husband, too. Because, when you’re in the bedroom, as women, we start to...like, if we even put on a piece of lingerie or something, we start to immediately judge our body that it’s not looking so amazing.    30:35 Sarah: And I talk about, when I’m with women and stuff, I talk about this idea of like, you know, there’s this...we as women get into serious judgement, but when we can come from learning to love ourselves from the way God sees us (because obviously that’s important), that we can be able to be at one with our husbands, even. And not focus so much on the belly fat that’s hanging out when we’re trying to get on top of him, you know? And just like, how we can emotionally connect instead of looking at our bodies and judging every nook and cranny that we don’t like, kind of thing.   31:25 Daniel: Love that.  Now, you jumped into something later on, about how women need novelty. I thought this was interesting. I believe it. I’m one who likes to shatter myths out there. But the prevailing thought is, men need novelty. Women want consistency. Tell me more about this.    31:45 Sarah: Yeah. 31:46 Daniel: I think this is fascinating. I don't think anybody else is addressing it, and I’ve read a lot of books, so tell me a little about your discovery there.   31:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, I think [...] I do believe women, we do need novelty. We just don’t think we need it [laughs]. I don’t know if that makes sense. We do love,   32:11 Daniel: Yes   32:12 Sarah: we like change. I don’t like the same position every time, I mean, anybody else? I mean, once I actually, was the--I mean, yes, I did missionary position for years, trust me, I know. But now that I’ve educated myself and I’ve found other ways to, you know, “quote, unquote” “sized up the bedroom” I actually do thrive on change in the bedroom. It keeps the spark alive and it creates more novelty, you know? 32:43 Daniel: Well, I think that’s important,   32:45 Sarah: Yeah   32:46 Daniel: because I think a lot of men get criticized because they want something new and that’s scary for their partners, but I--   32:51 Sarah: Yeah   32:52 Daniel: You’re realizing, part of the problem is you wanted it to be changed up, you wanted it exciting, you wanted it novel. And I think that’s part of the discovery for a lot of women in discovering their desire is, “wow, I’m realizing I’m not as vanilla as I thought I was.” 33:07 Sarah: Yeah. 33:08 Daniel: “Where will this end?” Were you concerned with that? Did you feel you were gonna go into desires and passions and things that were forbidden for you? What was that experience like for you? 33:19 Sarah: Yeah. Well, of course in the beginning--because, you know, my shame was still enveloped around me in certain points where it would rise up, you know? But then I’d have to open my eyes, like, “Sarah, quit judging it again!” You know? But at the same time, I realized how we can add just more experiences that we haven’t had necessarily before, in like, the safety of our own couple relationship.   33:55 Daniel: Just going back to the concept of not judging it and allow it to flow naturally.    34:01 Sarah: Yeah.   34:02 Daniel: As Emily Nagoski says, don’t put on the brakes. Just... 34:05 Sarah: Yeah, the brakes. I love that analogy, too. Oh my gosh, shes...yeah. Don’t put on the brakes, keep the accelerator going, because, you know. Sometimes, you don’t know if you’re even going to like it. So, quit judging that you’re not going to like it before you even start it, right? And allow yourself to receive. Okay, that’s another thing. Oh my gosh. As women, we give, give, give all day long, to everybody and everything. All the time. Right? So when I was like, “Sarah, you deserve to receive. You get to receive pleasure, you get to receive these different avenues of novelty, and this is okay for you.” Like, once again, I [laughs] I’ve had to coach myself. I do thisl ike, mental inventory in my head before I have sex with my husband. Like, “Sarah, we can do this. It’s fine. This is something that we’ve talked about, we’ve had discussions about this, we feel comfortable that this is something we want to choose to do and explore, and let’s be open to that.” So, yeah. I'm really good at coaching myself now. 35:19 Daniel: Yeah, it sounds like it. Sounds like you’ve come a long way in just three years. I like the other concept you’ve shared about sex drives, desire level. The differences aren’t the problem. Share with the audience what you meant by that.   35:35 Sarah: Differences aren’t the problem. We label ourselves when we first get married [laughs]. Now, like, you know as I’ve learned, not all men are higher desire partners, okay? Right? 35:49 Daniel: Not at all, right. 35:50 Sarah: Right. And so, we are really quick to label who’s higher, who’s lower, you know? And we, there’s a …. do you want me to quote books in here? 36:05 Daniel: Absolutely! Tell your story. Yep. 36:08 Sarah: Okay. One of the books, Passion Paradox, have you heard of that book? 36:13 Daniel: Actually, no, I haven’t read nor have I heard of it.   36:16 Sarah: Okay, I’m trying to think of the author right now, but it was...it’s like, an old book. It was like....it’s old. But anyway, there’s this...he talks about this whole idea of passion. Because, sometimes like, as women, we label ourselves as lower desire, say that we are, right? And we view the partner as the higher desire. But there’s different ways of expressing and showing passion to each other. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be just like a sexual thing. Sometimes, in different seasons of our lives, we kinda ebb and flow, and you know, go from one extreme to another or something. And I think this whole idea that we put labels is unfortunate, because I chose to give myself that label for all those years, and I clung on to it. And I would just view my husband, like, “you just want sex all the time. And I’m just gonna sit here, and just kinda vent to you that I don’t wanna have it, because I’ve already labelled myself that I don’t want it.”   37:30 Daniel: As opposed to learning how to meet the needs of each other.   37:33 Sarah: Yeah, yeah. 37:34 Daniel: I think that theme is so important throughout your book. I refer to it as breaking the culture of sexual silence, and I love that you hit on it throughout the entirety of your book. Especially, I believe, in chapter 14 talking about it. Even if I don’t know a lot about it, talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about everything you know about sex, and become comfortable with it. That is so important. As you learned early on with your mom, and with other friends, you couldn’t talk about it. And that is one of the biggest desire killers and barriers to education. So, learning how to break that culture of silence around sexuality, even when you don’t know fully what you’re talking about, start to share. That’s what we do. As kids, we talk about things we don’t know, and then parents correct us. People inform us. You go into it non-judgmentally, again, another thing that you carry throughout the book. Absolutely wonderful. You want to tell us a little bit about how you...what that was like for you as you realized you’re in this process, you’re learning. What were some of the fears, hesitations, or positive experiences you had with sharing freely your knowledge?   38:45 Sarah: Ok, so, you know I’m reading all these books, right? And consuming everything that I could. And I just, I remember always just like walking out, like, in public, you know, in Target or wherever, and seeing all these women. And I”m like, “oh. If they only knew. oh if they only knew.” Right? [laughs] and there’s a point where…’cause I truly believe I’ve obviously come to a place where I--and you’ve seen this in my book--I’m a realist. Like, I really share the dark sides of me, and my hang-ups and everything, and I’m okay with it. I've come to a place where I don’t have this fear of judgement of what other people might think of me, because I’ve realized that the more I share, the more respect I get from people. And so, as I was reading all these things, and I’m going out into public and I see all these women, and I’m just wondering, “I wonder if she’s like...if she was like me.” Because I’m now, not. I don’t really...it’s hard for me, sometimes, to even take myself back, even three years ago, to where I was. Because I’m so much more happier now. But sometimes i have to take myself there so that I can be, you know, relatable, to other women, right? So, of course in our LDS culture, [laughs] I have definitely … I’ve lost friendships. I’ll be honest.   40:18 Daniel: What do you mean? I think I know what you’re talking about there, because I’ve experience the same, but share with the audience what that means. Just because you’re being passionate and open about sexuality, you lost friends? 40:28 Sarah: Yeah. 40:29 Daniel: What happened there? 40:30 Sarah: Yeah, so...just in small conversations, or I might have written like a post or something on facebook about a book that I was reading. And then it just rubs somebody the wrong way, you know? And I've actually had a few friends who’ve vocally come and told me that they don’t agree with what I’m talking about and learning about. And that’s fine. It was of course hard to hear, ‘cause it’s like a blow. It’s like this form of rejection that you don’t want to ever experience in your life. But at the same time, there was like, 30+ women behind me saying “thank you. I learned so much from you,” you know? And so, it’s just our human nature to cling-on to those one or two people that give you that negative comment, right? But it definitely propelled me to keep sharing, because I know how my life has changed because of it. And my marriage has changed because of it. And I can’t deny it.    41:43 Sarah: So as I’ve opened up about it, and talked to people within my neighborhood or community, like I just know that I am making strides with people. I actually, just yesterday, I had a friend who had finally come around. I’ve been talking to her for like, since I started reading books, and just recently she was like, “Sarah, I think I’m ready.” You know? And you just have to kinda wait for those people to come around, and they will, eventually. And they’ll realize just how powerful this can be, when they can open and be more curious to see what their life can be like if they chose to look at it with a different perspective.    42:34 Daniel: Absolutely.   42:35 Sarah: So yeah. 42:35 Daniel: In other words, you’re not pushing your narrative. 42:36 Sarah: No.   42:38 Daniel: People know what you know.   42:38 Sarah: No, yeah. 42:40 Daniel: Because, you’re open about it. And you’re waiting for them to come and seek you out. 42:43 Sarah: Yeah. 42:44 Daniel: That’s excellent. 42:45 Sarah: Exactly. yeah, just kinda wait for them and whenever they’re ready, I’ll be there with open arms to teach them and to guide them through their own experience. The crazy part is [laughs] I have no desire to be a sex therapist like yourself, or you know, go and be a professor or anything of that nature. I just love learning about it. I feel like, I don’t know, I guess people can kind of resonate more with a girl off the street I guess first, and then I can guide them to therapists or whoever else they need help with, right? Because I obviously don’t have all the tools, but I’m their starting point, you know? And that’s what I love about me being open about it, is that I can be their starting point and then they can move from there to seek more professional help if they need it, you know? 43:41 Daniel: Absolutely. What a wonderful theme that you’ve carried out through the book. I think it’s been wonderfully done, I think you’ve communicated well. Are there...as we wrap up here, is there anything else about the book or your experiences that you feel is important for the audience to know about you, and your journey, or maybe possibly the journey that they’re going through? 44:02 Sarah: Oh yeah, I mean, as you [...] just, the book, in and of itself, it just breaks down so many things. You know, out there in our audience, you  might have someone who feels like they are broken, right? Or, they feel like, that there’s no hope in their marriage. We didn’t even touch on porn, that’s a whole-nother enchilada in and of itself…   44:28 Daniel: So, I… hold off on that, because I--   44:31 Sarah: [laughs]   44:31 Daniel: I love that you refer to porn the way you did in your book, as a compulsion, as a temptation, as a potential device in a marriage or [pauses] divisiveness in a marriage.    44:45 Sarah: Yeah.   44:46 Daniel: And I love the language that you used in there, and I would be interested in exploring that a little more, if you’d like. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it, and why you included it? 44:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, obviously from personal experience, it was not me, it was my husband’s, right? I think it’s just, he actually, it was the [....]  I remember the day, and I’m sure a lot of men and women here can remember the day that their spouse came to them with this news, right? Or they found out in some other way, right? That’ll be a day that you won’t ever forget.    45:24 Sarah: But, that day, he came and approached me, and it was during this time that I had finished writing my first book. And I was, like I said before, I was in a really good place, and just felt pretty good about life because I was working on myself. And I think that’s what’s key here, in this chapter particularly, is, whether man or woman, right? Really focus on, what are you doing in the relationship? What can you do to better yourself, to become a better version of yourself? And that’s kinda where i was at that point, luckily.    46:01 Sarah: And that’s when Trent felt comfortable to actually approach me and tell me about his porn addiction. Because, you know, he had these fears that I would leave him and all these things, right? Like everybody might have. And he came, and he told me, and it was just this, you know, gut-wrenching kind of feeling. And the first question that came into my mind, “what’s wrong with me? Why does he feel like he has to do this? I can’t believe he’s done this. He’s this amazing man, how did porn get a hold of him?” Kind of thing. And so, back then, I was doing a lot of video journaling, and so after he told me, I just was like, “kay, just hold on a second, I need to go into my closet and kinda think about this.”    46:48 Sarah: So, I went to my closet and for ten minutes I just kind of, just like, talked to myself. Like, just basically went through, in my head, what I’d just heard. And, it’s interesting, I still have this video and I treasure it, but...so you’ll notice (well, you won’t notice, because you’re not watching it), but in the first five minutes, I’m just like, processing, like, “why him? Why me?” Everything right? This pity party. And then, the last five minutes, I just kinda make this shift. It was God telling me, “Sarah, he’s a son of God.” And that’s all I heard. That’s all I heard, and I knew that I needed to walk with him in this journey.    47:34 Sarah: I was not to fix him, because I can’t fix him, right? But I can walk with him to, you know, figure out how to help him navigate, you know, and how to get the help that he needed kind of stuff. And so, that was [...] once again, it’s a simple thing, but that was the one thing that really carried me through that experience. Just recognizing that he’s a son of God and together we can work through the porn addiction, and we can come out on top. And we definitely have. And it’s been an incredible experience. But there’s definitely been pain. It hasn’t been easy. But, there’s definitely a light at the end of the tunnel.   48:22 Daniel: A lot of people are listening, saying, “okay, yeah, you just shared he just dumped this big thing on you.” And if I remember right, you even equate pornography to adultery, or cheating, on the relationship, am I remembering correctly? 48:39 Sarah: Yeah. 48:39 Daniel: That’s a very big view to have. One that, generally, is very divisive in a relationship. And you also refer to it as an addiction. And if anybody’s been in my group, they know how sensitive I am about that terminology.    48:54 Sarah: Yeah.   48:54 Daniel: You actually went and learned a lot from Cameron Staley, 48:58: Oh, man. 48:59 Daniel: about mindfulness, which is not an addiction approach, it’s a very mindful approach. 49:03Sarah: Yeah. 49:03 Daniel: Which is very much in harmony with the theme of your book: non-judgemental, non-rigid around these things but being more mindful and self-aware. 49:15 Sarah: Self-awareness is huge, yeah. 49:17 Daniel: And I think that led you to this [...] because usually, the concepts of addiction don’t lead you into the direction that you’re talking about, in fact, it leads you in a very opposite direction. But I love that mindfulness, and fortunately, meeting up with Cameron, or whatever you learned from him, it led you to this idea.   49:34 Sarah: Yeah. 49:35 Daniel: One of the concepts that you shared there was, and I’m gonna put it in my terminology: “I don’t view sex as a punishment or reward, I view it as communcation.” And you talk about there, “yes, it’s not your fault, and you as the wife, you’re not responsible for his behavior. However, why are you punishing him by not giving him sex? Is that your because of your insecurity?” I realize I’m butchering your words, I’m putting in mine.   49:59 Sarah: Yeah. 50:00 Daniel: And correct me if I’m misrepresenting your train of thought there. But, you're saying, “embrace them. Don’t withhold sex because of mabye, your insecurities.”   50:09 Sarah: Yep, that’s the worst thing you could do, is to withhold it.   50:10 Daniel: Absolutely, absolutely. Although, giving them sex, you shouldn’t have this expecation: now, he’s gonna be safe, you know? In fact, I think you pointed that out, if I remember right. 50:20 Sarah: Yes, I did. 50:21 Daniel: You said somethinglike, “okay, I’m gonna give him all”--because some women do that--”I’m gonna give him all the sex he needs so he avoids it.”   50:26 Sarah: Then he won’t even go look, yeah.   50:27 Daniel: And that’s a reward or punishment approach, as opposed to communication and connecting.   50:33 Sarah: Yes. 50:33 Daniel: And so, ironically, taking that other approach of withholding or giving too much, is very much objectification, and divisive in the relationship. It’s not connected. And so I love that you embrace that idea, of “it’s not my responsibility, but I’m not going to miss this opportunity to connect with my partner. Because I view porn in this context”--whatever it is-- “I’m not going to let that get in my way of connecting with my partner.” I thought that was beautiful.   51:02 Sarah: Yeah, just finding that middle ground. I mean, I remember coming home and asking anything I could about porn. Because, I had no idea what that world was like. None. And so, it blew my mind to see, like, wow. I really don’t know anything! But at the same time, like, let’s come together and have conversations to see, like, how we can navigate this new normal. Come to a middle ground to connect. I mean, we uh, this could be a whole-nother podcast. That definitely, that experience...I mean, it didn’t take me on my sex journey, because I found out about this, probably like 5 years ago.    51:51 Daniel: You mean, his use of porn? 51:54 Sarah: Yes, his use of porn. And so, there were still a couple years in between there where I was just trying to like, you know, I’d have [...] our communication was better, it wasn’t the best as it is now, but we were definitely communicating. And I wasn't that one that was like, you know, denying him and like, that kind of thing. Because, I was kind of understanding how, you know, I needed to create this middle ground to see how we can evolve into something better. And so then, when I finally accepted like, “okay, I need to work on my sexuality,” then that took us to a whole-nother level. And he’s been amazing and [pauses], yeah. He doesn’t have those compulsions anymore and even if he does, he comes and talks to me about it, you know? And so, we’ve created a very healthy relationship in regards to porn.    52:52 Daniel: Sarah, that is wonderful. I would actually really love having you on again, at a future time, to talk about that.    52:58 Sarah: Yeah. 53:00 Daniel: Again, the book is Underneath it All...You’re Naked. Wonderful theme throughout the book. I think you did an amazing job with it, and I think the audience would really benefit from it. Thank you so much for coming on.   53:11 Sarah: Thank you. Aw, yeah, it’s been a pleasure. I appreciate you letting me have an opportunity to share my story. 53:18 Daniel: Thank you.   53:18 Sarah: It’s always something I like to talk about [laughs].   53:20 Daniel: Oh, clearly, 53:21 Sarah: It changed my life. Like, literally changed my life.   53:24 Daniel: Yeah. Your journey has been--   53:25 Sarah: Saved me. 53:26 Daniel: amazing. Thank you so much, Sarah. 53:28 Sarah: You’re welcome. [music]  

Jerry Hoepner, a faculty member in the department of Communication Sciences and Disorders at the University of Wisconsin – Eau Claire. I am privileged to introduce today’s guest, Dr. Sarah Northcott. We are fortunate to have a conversation about her work and the application of solutions focused brief therapy and psychological supports to individuals with aphasia.  Dr. Sarah Northcott is a Senior Lecturer in Speech and Language Therapy at both the University of East Anglia, UK, and City, University of London, UK. Her research interests lie in exploring ways to support the emotional and social wellbeing of people living with stroke and aphasia. In 2016 she received the UK Stroke Association Jack and Averil (Mansfield) Bradley Fellowship Award for Stroke Research, which enabled her to lead the SOFIA Trial (Solution Focused brief therapy In post-stroke Aphasia), a feasibility wait-list controlled trial. She also led the qualitative evaluation on the SUPERB Trial, investigating peer befriending for people with aphasia, also funded by the UK Stroke Association.   Take aways: Social networks are wonderful for people with aphasia after their stroke, and these social networks often predict outcomes more than the severity of the stroke. (9:30) It is crucial that speech language therapists receive training on this topic so they feel comfortable stepping into those moments when there is a need for psychosocial support, or at least recognize when they need extra support in doing so. Solution focused brief therapy is designed to help people build change. With training, it is important that speech therapists transition out of the “fixer mindset” and the thought that they need to fix everything, in order to successfully provide this psychosocial support.  Paper and pen, or objects from the individual’s environment that they are comfortable using, are the most effective visual communication methods when going into these unpredictable conversations. Always make the most of people’s strengths and talents and focus on what is already going well. The client is the expert in their own life!     Jerry: Greetings from across the pond, Sarah. I'd say good morning, but perhaps good afternoon for you. Really nice talk with you today.    Sarah: It's lovely, thank you very much to be inviting me as part of your podcast series. That was really lovely to be here.    Jerry: Absolutely, our privilege. I'm really excited to dive into this important conversation again, a topic near and dear to my heart as well. And before we get started, can you share just a little bit about your mentors and collaborators and kind of how you found your path, so to speak.   Sarah: So, I first trained as a speech therapist about 20 years ago now, and it was when I was starting to work with adults who had a stroke for the first time, I guess, I started to realize how difficult it was to, how your life can be turned upside down by having the aphasia and how isolated some of the people I was working with were as well. And it was around that time that Katerina Hilari from City University contacted me and asked me if I'd like to do an MSC looking at social support for people with chronic aphasia. And that kind of tied in well with what I was noticing in my clinical work. And I think I was really struck by that project, I found it really exciting to be working on that project. And it also felt important because I could sort of see the clinical relevance from the work I was doing. I guess I'm very grateful to Katerina, because she sort of opened that whole door for me. And it was really Katerina, who encouraged me to do the PhD. the PhD was looking, taking that work forward, looking more generally at social support after a stroke. So, for people with and without aphasia, and what social support really mattered to them, what value it had, what tends to happen to their friendships. And yeah, I feel very lucky that she was had a lot of belief in me and really encouraged me to do that. And after my PhD, she was still there for me. So, I have quite a difficult season, because when you finish your PhD to know quite what to do next. And yeah, she's always been incredibly supportive and has been really there for me sort of had a belief that the work we were doing was important and valuable, and that I had something to contribute. So that was, yes, she's like, I really respect her academic judgments. And she's been a really big part of my life, I guess, the 15 years that we've done some lovely work together. And that's been really rewarding. And I guess more recently with the SOFIA fellowship project I've had, as well as Katerina, three other supervisors, so a mental health nurse, and two psychologists and I think, I there was real value for me and being supervised by people who weren't speech therapists. So, I really learned from those with different perspectives and what they were bringing to it. So, one of them Shirley Thomas, who sort of is leading the column base trial campaign for activation therapy for people with aphasia. So of course, she brought a huge wealth of knowledge about running trials with people with aphasia, which is not the easiest thing to do, assessing him for his knowledge about mental health nursing. And I found that really helpful to get those perspectives and put that into the research. And so, many lovely people to work with. I don't think I've ever felt alone with it. And if anyone out there is a speech therapist or speech therapy student and wondering about research, I would say, it's really important to have a team around you because it's not always the easiest thing. There are not backs when you get rejections and then things don't go to plan. So, have people around you who believe in you, and will support you through that and support you not just for the academic side, but sort of quite holistically as well. So, I think I've been, I've been very lucky with the support I've had around. And I've certainly I've not done any of this work alone, it's always been a very much a team thing. And I'm very grateful for the team I've had around me. So, if anyone of my supervisors have happened to listen to this, a big thank you to all of them.   Jerry: That's really well said in terms of the importance of just having that team that work around you, for sure. And really a powerful story about Katerina reaching out to you, that must have just been really a great moment and ongoing moments to encourage you with your PhD and beyond. So, I agree some definitely lovely work that two of you and others have done together regarding psychosocial effects following aphasia. So, I just love that whole body of work.    Sarah: Yeah, and I feel very grateful to the school that everyone has given me with that. And I would say that again, I guess that's another thing to pull out of that if someone's thinking about whether to go into research, it is so important to do research in an area that you're quite passionate about, and you really believe in because it's tough doing research. So, I think you have to have a real motivation. And I think that's kind of going as well as that as a support team to have a kind of belief in the projects.   Jerry: Absolutely. And it's really evident in the work that you do and the connections that you have to real individuals with aphasia. So, it definitely shows through, and again, those interdisciplinary connections you mentioned, Shirley Thomas, and she's done so much work in this area. And that's been powerful.   Sarah: You know and I think I think it's been really interesting to work with a psychologist coming from a different background and a different perspective on research. And I've definitely learned loads from them, it's been really helpful.   Jerry: But an excellent place to start. Just to kind of roll back the clocks a little bit, I think many of our listeners are familiar with your work on the stroke social network scale, and the social networks and supports for people with chronic aphasia that you've done with Katerina Hilari. So, I think that is a really nice place to start in terms of just thinking of where you've come from. In the 2018 article in the International Journal of Language and Communication Disorders, you identified several barriers to accessing appropriate psychological support for individuals with aphasia. And likewise, in your 2017 article, in that same journal, you found that most speech language pathologists or in the UK, speech language therapists, lack the confidence to implement the appropriate psychological supports for people with aphasia. Of course, that's really been shown by --- and colleagues all around the world, but it's just such a prominent issue. Can you talk a little bit about how all of this kind of led into your current research regarding solution focus brief therapy?   Sarah: Of course, and thank you for reading these papers.   Jerry: Absolutely.   Sarah: So yeah, do you want me to take it back from the beginning for the sort of social support stroke social network scale and then work from there?    Jerry: Sure, that'd be fine. That'd be great.    Sarah: Yes, in my PhD I was looking at social support, and one of the outputs of that was the stroke social network scale. And it is something that Katerina's done recently is set up a repository of different resources from City University, so just if people are interested in some of the work we've done at City to go to the current website. And you'll find it there, you'll find that scale there, you'll find her cycle 39 scale, and we're trying to build up that repository. So, that's just a nice resource for anyone in the world to tap into. And I think, yes, in my PhD reverb, we're looking at what happens over time. And it was one of the themes that came through was that social networks are quite wonderful after a stroke. And they seem to be particularly vulnerable for people with aphasia. And that seems to be a really predictive factor of who's going to maintain a strong social network, a stronger factor, even then stroke severity or disabilities. So, that was a quite striking finding. And I think I felt very privileged in my PhD because part of it was doing questionnaires of people over time, but then also doing qualitative interviews of people around about a year post stroke, so I had a year of my life walking around London doing these interviews of people and listening to people's stories. People are very generous with their times to share how they found the stroke, what was important to them? And yeah, and exploring with them all the value of connection and what that meant to them after the stroke. And also, we could see from the quantitative data that people were losing friends. We didn't mean, there was a chance to explore with people what's happening, what does this mean to you? And it was, you know, so many reasons that people gave of why they were seeing their friends less, you know, they weren't going to same activities that they used to. So, they didn't see those friends in those contexts anymore. They were exhausted, and they didn't have the energy to initiate contact. With a disability, they were housebound, and how you host and your lack of reciprocity there. And of course, the phase, you're in a phase of disrupting the dynamics of friendships, and a big theme that came through as well, there was the close link between this sense of feeling a little bit withdrawn and cutting us off a little bit. So, the link between mood and friendship loss, and it's like a vicious cycle, I guess, of becoming withdrawn, not going out, and then getting low in mood and then becoming even more withdrawn. And I think some of those stories affected me quite a lot. And at the end of my PhD, I was wanting to say, well, what intervention could we have that could break that vicious cycle and make it more of a virtuous cycle? To encourage people to, or what do people need to be able to feel they can start to reengage again and start to live the life they want to live with the stroke and aphasia? So, I think that was the motivation for me at the end of the PhD to think it's quite a big thing to go from observation research into intervention research. I don't think I've quite realized actually how big a thing it was and how much I was undertaking it as a way of learning. But I think that was my motivation to start thinking about interventions. And so, this was five years ago. And at that point, there was very little in terms of the research evidence base for effective psychological therapy for people with aphasia. And Shirley's lovely studies, comm study, I wasn't the basis to her lovely systematic review quite recently. And yes, its basis is still pretty thin and has some really nice research coming through. So, there's all the lovely stuff in Australia and in the world, but it's still, I would say, I was surprised how many psychological stroke research studies were excluding people with aphasia on the grounds of their language disability. So that was quite motivating for me to think, as a speech language therapist, what can be our role? What therapies might work well, so that was nice to start playing. And then as you say, before I went into doing the solution focused brief therapy trial, I did some work, listening to speech therapists. So, we did an online survey, and then we did some focus group analysis and had an experience trusting the psychological well-being of people with aphasia. And, yeah, that was, so it was really striking that speech therapists, they really want to do their best. And they were doing some lovely listening, and they're setting up groups, and they were telling us all the things that they were doing. But there was a sense of, actually, this is not an area where you feel confident. And this is not an area that we feel particularly more trained or supported in. And we have this sort of unease that if we spend a session listening to someone’s distress, should we spend that session, doing language goals, you know, was that the right use of our time. And that particularly felt uneasy when they felt that it was all on their shoulders. And if they got out of that debt, they had nowhere to turn to for extra support, when they felt that the management and their team have to be valuing that work, supporting them in that work, where they didn't feel they had the training. They were time pressured, and conversely, in teams where they felt that there was that sense of holistic team culture, and it was valid, it was easier if they had some training. And particularly they had such a support. So, I think what might work particularly nicely was whether there was a mental health professional psychologist within the team, with a kind of opened door policy who they felt they could knock on the door of and ask them for advice as they went along. And if they started to go down to their desk, they could do joint work together or handover. And where they felt they could get informed advice and support with it. That seems quite enabling to speech therapists to feel that this is something that they could address and feel comfortable addressing.    Jerry: Wow, that's terrific. I want to go back to just a couple of things that you said. That idea that social networks predict outcomes more than stroke severity, and then that cycle between changes in mood and withdrawal and how that kind of feeds itself. And I think that last point, when you were talking about Speech Language therapists, that training, right, just not feeling comfortable, but when they get that training, they feel more comfortable and are able to step into those moments when there's a need for that psychosocial support, or at least recognize when they need outside help as well. So.   Sarah: Yes, I think it was quite interesting for people was just saying one of the things that they got from training and experience was, when they complete it, when they were newly qualified, they had the sense that they needed to fix everything, there needed to be solution and quite anxious with situations where they couldn't fix it. And with training they kind of reversed this around to thinking sometimes it's really very good just to be there with someone or just to listen and that's valuable in itself. And they thought they had some skills to sit back on enabling them to do that. So, listening and being there with someone when they’re distracted, they felt more comfortable out on their own.    Jerry: Yeah, I agree. And making that shift out of that fixer mindset I think is a really important part of providing that type of support, for sure. Absolutely. So terrific introduction to this. Can you talk a little bit about why speech language therapists should consider the psychosocial impact of living with aphasia and kind of what their roles are in terms of addressing psychological well-being, psychosocial well- being?   Sarah: Sure. So, what came through in the focus group project was the sense that often people with aphasia, that speech therapists are meeting, have sort of been trapped in this world of aphasia, and they got a real value from having a speech therapist facilitate them, explaining what it was like to be them, what it was like to live with the aphasia. And the speech therapists have skills of listening and facilitation, and that's really valuable. So, I would say that for someone with aphasia who has more severe distress, more severe mental health issues, I think speech therapists have a role in facilitating and accessing mental health professionals as well. And what we found in the focus group project was speech therapists we spoke to were concerned that people with more severe aphasia, it was very hard for them to access psychological health and mental health professionals who understandably found it very challenging to adjust their psychological therapies for someone with more severe aphasia. And I think also what we found in the UK, and I don't know if this translates to the US, but in UK near the stroke, so in your acute stage, just post discharge from hospital, psychologists working in those teams more like, sometimes like it was just like in ASD so there was quite spectrum where the speech therapist was very disappointed that those people with aphasia aren't suitable candidates for therapy because of their language disability. But there are also psychologists in this stroke special services who are skilled working with aphasia, we're happy to be joint working with the speech therapists, we're happy to work with the family members around the person with aphasia. But when the people with aphasia went into the mainstream mental health services, then there were more issues around mental health professionals struggling with the aphasia. So, I think in that situation, the speech therapists have a real role in supporting someone with aphasia and accessing those services. So, I can completely see that as a speech therapist listening here thinking like not really wanting to go and get lots of specialist training and delivering pre psychological therapies is not that I see my world what I want to do, but I would say that it is important for speech therapists to not undervalue their own skills of listening and what that can be for someone with aphasia, or underestimate that we can have a sort of bridging role and helping people access psychological services. And another thing I'd add to that is that, you know, really listening to someone who is having a hard time, it's not easy, and I have some sympathy with speech therapists who are starting to learn to project, and starting to feel anxious. And I would say that it's important to feel supported in that work and so there's someone that you can go to, and people talk about peer support a lot and how valuable that was. But to find some way of feeling reassured that you're doing the right thing, sometimes as well, that it is the right thing to sit there with someone who are distressed. I would say, I'm a really big believer on making sure you've got support systems for the therapists as well.   Jerry: Absolutely. Just to touch on a couple of those points. I completely agree that speech language pathologists, speech language therapists, have a real unique skill set that allows us to facilitate, to support that communication and hopefully support expression of, you know, those psychosocial kind of needs and concerns. And I also think that we're really positioned well, to facilitate and support those interactions, as you said, with psychologists, and perhaps, you know, training, collaboration, kind of mutual bidirectional training in terms of giving them the skills to support communication and expression. And certainly vice versa, them kind of sharing their knowledge, those psychosocial and psychological supports as well. So…   Sarah: I think that joint working is a really lovely model and way of thinking about structures, isn't it? I mean, if you haven't got the psychologist to sit next to them, it's much easier. And there were definitely people who spoke about psychologist is in a different team, it's much harder to get a hold of them. And there just work pushes. I mean, not all stroke services in the UK at all have access to a psychologist and some of them are very thinly spread. And speech therapists are very thinly spread as well. So then, yeah, there's logistical difficulties there too.   Jerry: Yeah, absolutely. And we definitely have the same kind of issues in the states as well. In terms of access to those services, just so many means at this point across the entire population, so…   Sarah: Yes, this current situation is particularly extreme as well. Yes.   Jerry: Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Can you talk a little bit about the challenges of making those psychological, psychosocial therapies accessible, when someone has aphasia? Kind of the adaptations and types of communication supports you need to kind of weave in?   Sarah: Yeah, that's a really good question. The psychological therapy is traditionally they're language based on the kind of skills that you will be taught in a counseling training, of open questions and don't always work so well, when someone has aphasia. So, speaking, psychologists have to say, well, you need a little bit more skill, that some of the tools that you have don't work so well. So, I think there's a little bit of thinking there. And, yes, I think it's helpful to talk about my fellowship project. So that's the SOFIA Trial. And that's looking at adapting the solution focused brief therapy, so that it is successful for people with aphasia. With that trial, we had an aphasia advisory groups, and it was a lovely group of people with aphasia to advise us on it, and they were very, they advised us very strongly that we should see if we could make it accessible for people with severe aphasia. And I remember the time being a little anxious about this, but I couldn't really argue them, they had a point and was saying people with severe aphasic probably need psychological support more than anybody else, and so often excluded, even in the face of your trials. So, see what you can do, you're a speech therapist, you've got training in psychological therapies, we'll see what you can do. So, we ran a little pilot with people with very severe aphasia. And it was challenging, it was really challenging. Adapting solution focused brief therapy for people with severe aphasia. So, they had receptive and comprehension difficulties. And at the end of this pilot, we got a big thumbs up, though, they said, "this therapy does work, you shouldn't leave people with severe aphasia." So, we did. So, we did include people with severe disabilities. And in fact, I think it's 43% of our participants at securities union. So, we thought about this a lot, for three years now. I'm very happy to share my thinking with you on how we adapt solution focused brief therapy for people with severe aphasia if you'd like me to keep talking.   Jerry: I would love that. That would be terrific. And before you go on, I just wanted to make a couple of notes. You have a 2016 paper about that trial, excuse me, the pilot of that approach.   Sarah: Yes, I mean, this came as quite a surprise to me as a clinician, all the different stages of intervention. So, we've initially did a very tiny proof of concept study with five people who had mild to moderate aphasia. And I think the aim of that trial was just "does it work at all?" And perhaps a more personal level, "Do I like this therapy approach?" And then the little pilot has talked about the severe things yet that's not been published. That's internal pilot within the SOFIA project. I should really write that up at some point, but that's not been published. So yes, that was current work with people with severe aphasia before we do the trial. So yeah, there's been quite a lot of stages before we went into a feasibility trial. And as something that I'm particularly proud of is that we did include people with severe aphasia. And I can add that one of the things we're looking at is do the other different patterns in results in people with severe aphasia or mild aphasia, and we don't think that there particularly are. We think people with severe aphasia also benefited from the therapy. So we're really pleased. It is a different sort of therapy though I would say. So solution focused brief therapy is as traditionally, really linguistically quite complex. So there's cognitively complex as well, there's a lot of question forms, which are sort of hypothetical, conditional features and the other person's perspective. And if you go on a training course, I think most of the questions will seem like they're not really going to work that well with someone with aphasia. And a lot of the tools seem very based in language and very inaccessible, to be honest. So it was, I think what we did with SOFIA was we stretched back to think what are the core assumptions underpinning this approach? And then can we build up in a way that's more linguistically accessible? So, there was quite a lot of taking out solution focused questions and thinking, how can we make this simpler, and then sort of the other way of building up from assumptions? So that sounds really abstract. So, if I sort of give some examples. So, an assumption might be, a solution focused assumption might be that everybody has strengths and talents and skills, even though they're not yet quite aware of them. There are lots of solution focused tools to help elicit people really start to notice those strengths and skills and talents. And one of the things you might do to start a follow up session is say, you know well what have you been pleased to notice about yourself in the last week, so it starts to help people notice what's going well, what can they be pleased about, and I think what I would quite often do with someone with severe aphasia, as a follow up session I might, is have some way, visual way of representing the time. So, they knew the timeframes or looking at their calendar together. And I'll just say, "What are you proud of?" And we'd write down proud, maybe the gesture, and then we would just list five things they were proud of. And that was conceptually, quite straightforward. And then it was easy in speech therapy skills to facilitate them coming back with them, what they've been proud of. So, and it might take a whole, it was super exciting that, you know, if someone was linguistic, didn't have aphasia, that kind of little bit of conversation might take three minutes, five minutes, but for someone with aphasia, it might take an entire session to think of well what are five things that they've been proud of since I last saw you? And I remember one gentleman, he had very severe aphasia, not very much language at all. And he, he went off and he came back with this little wooden stool that he bought. And he, through gesture, he explained that he used this tool to help with his, and he was gardening with his tomato plants on his tiny little balcony. And it was explained with no language that it was just right, because he stopped getting backache, he didn't have to bend over. And then he explained through gesturing and looking at the stool that it was it was a peaceful story. I mean, it was it was a tiny stool. And he explained that he bought it from the local market. And he explained with his purse that he bartered it down, and it was actually only cost him 10 pounds, which is not very much money. And it was functional, it was light, it was the perfect height to stop getting backaches when he gardened his tomato plants. And it was beautiful. It was a really beautiful item. And if you got anyone else to just come down to the local pawn shop, and bought a little plastic stool, he had the kind of, it was just this lovely story that he did something about him that he'd been able to share with me, this little tiny incident in his life of buying this stool that he'd done over the last week, his gardening. And I think it was giving him that space to expand on these little details of his life that he felt proud of, and it was making a space. So, there wasn't very much language involved in that conversation at all. He didn't, there wasn't very much language in terms of my questions, there wasn't very much language in terms of how he answered them. And it probably took him, I don't know, 15 minutes to explain to me about this stool and what it meant to him. Maybe he didn't have very many chances, the rest of his life to expand on those little details of who he was and why this was important to him. So, sometimes I used to think, gosh, it's quite a watered down version of solution focused brief therapy, I'm doing, but there's some quite sophisticated questions and tools that I'm not able to use. And we would tear it back down to sort of this quite essential things. But somehow, it seemed to be quite empowering to have people feel that someone had noticed them, and that these conversations help people feel that someone had noticed what was special about them. And that helped them perhaps notice for themselves what was special about them. Sorry, that was a quite long winded answer.   Jerry: No, absolutely. I just think that's a fabulous illustration of, you know, the support that speech language therapists can provide in that context to facilitate all of that communication. So, you said this is a guy with very little verbal communication. And yet, that's a really complex story that you were able to elicit and really speaks to why, you know, we're well positioned, so to speak, to provide these kinds of supports as well, I just want to make a couple of notes. Referring back to that 2016 pilot, you have some examples of the language that typical solutions, focused therapy would use, you know, the best analogy I could give was, you know, some of those questions are a paragraph long, so to speak, and you've kind of pared that down to a single, you know, less syntactically complex sentence that allows those types of responses and that certainly all of the communication supports to get there in terms of expression.   Sarah: Yes, so at City University, there's a clinical linguist called Lucy Dipper. I do remember having a lovely session with her. And I said, look, I've got these questions, they don't work at all, and then that was quite nice to tap into kind of a linguist's attitude and she was sort of talking through how we could simplify. So that was, and that's kind of what I like about research, sometimes there's all these different angles. So, there's the kind of interpersonal sort of meeting with participants, but then there's the kind of more intellectual thing of how do we simplify this language when you first meet someone. And you might typically say in the first session, you know, this is really quite posing, I'm with your best friend, what would they say, which would tell you that these sessions have been a useful concept they see and know these questions go on, as you say, for a very long time. And we went through question by question thinking how to make them a bit simpler. So, in that case, the very first session, very sort of an opening out trying to explore what's into someone, what do they want to focus on in the sessions? I might write down, you know, we're having six sessions and write down six, six visits. Say, what, what are you hoping for? And then write down hopes as a gesture. And that's a much simpler way of asking someone than some of the typical solution focused. And then what we did when if that was, that's still a very open question, and quite hard for someone with very severe aphasia to answer so, we then we borrowed, like, highlights from everything we could find. So, we borrowed from talking maps. So, I don't know how much talking maps are used in the US, but this is where you, okay? So, he literally goes like here's a doormat, and you have all these cuts. So, we took the doormat idea, and we borrowed from all the research across the world about what it means to live well with aphasia, we got about 12 constructs, things like family, friends, competence, going out. And we thought we would do a scaling that was the sort of not to 10 at the top. Then we would ask people to place these different constructs on the scaling map so how they felt things were going and mostly people even with very severe aphasia were able to do this relatively okay. And then we were to say, what's important to move up from that? And that was relatively, it was very visual, you know, it was literally taking a card and saying, well, the card that I really want to move is this card. I want this card to move up. And it was a surprise, sometimes you'd expect to be sometimes in terms of a card that was already quite high, that was the thing they wanted. And that was I mean, that was just a real start point for the conversation. And I spent hours creating pictures to support these conversations. And what I actually found was most useful when I went along was just paper and pen, because it's so fluid and flexible. And if you don't know where the conversation is going to go, which you don't really with solution focused brief therapy, so very much following on from what I still recommend what they say. So, you can't really know in advance what the session is going to look like. Paper and pens and objects in the environment and just sort of being creative. So, making sure they have their own paper and pen, so there was a sort of an equality there. I did a lot of drawing and terrible drawing, I did a lot of drawing and sessions, and then making use of whatever they had that they were comfortable using. So especially these days, with smartphones just being amazing, and there was this gentleman who prior to his stroke, he used to go to art galleries, but it was only after a stroke that he learned to paint. And we had some lovely sessions with him putting up various paintings on his phone and showing me. Although there was a lady with severe aphasia, where during the week, she would take photos and things that she wanted to share with me because she was pleased about. So, she would take photos of the various meals she'd cook during the week, and she would show me on her smartphone. So, we kind of, again, that's free speech therapy isn't it, that's what speech therapists do all over the world, you make the most of the skills that the person with aphasia has. And it just goes, I just love it when you get to a stage where you don't actually notice that someone has aphasia anymore, you are just having a conversation, and it just happens to look slightly different from the conversation if they didn't have aphasia. But yeah, and that's a part of solution focusing as well, to make the most of it, to capitalize on people's strengths and what's going on.   Jerry: Absolutely, what a great description. I just want to highlight some of those things that you talked about just a, you know, a toolbox for facilitating or supporting that communication within that solutions focused intervention. So, you talked about the talking maps, just a fabulous tool, and you even mentioned personal modifications in photos that you added, the rating scales, obviously really powerful written choice. You mentioned earlier, writing down those key words, doing some great drawings of your own. Yeah, and then phones are just so powerful, you know, so easy to pull out and just shoot. So that really speaks to how you get at all of that language exchange when you are talking with someone with severe aphasia or with, you know, difficulty expressing.   Sarah: And I guess we kind of, we pulled on the bits of solution focused brief therapy, which are more visual. So, scales are often used in traditional therapy. So, as solution focused therapy would have, say, if someone really established that what they really were hoping to focus on was confidence, then for a scale you might have, ten would be they're feeling really confident, and zero is the opposite. So, solution focused, you would tend to invite someone to place themself on that scale. So, if someone doesn't have aphasia, you tend to do all this scaling work verbally. But I would reach for my scale and I would do all you know, write one to 10 on the scale, and then I would tend to write confidence as a key word at the top of the scale and then they would, after they place themselves on whatever is true. What I quite like about solution focused therapy with rating scales is that use that then as a tool to help elicit what's already working well. So, you would spend quite a lot of time then, "well how come you're a three and not a two?" So what score, and then listing is lovely, because it's quite conceptually easy. And it's a quite a natural way of writing down key words. So, I tend to spend quite a lot of time looking at what's already going well. And then it's very nice and visual to just then have a little area again, one step up to four. So, what does four look like? Again, these are very open questions. And sometimes, you know, you have to really scaffold much more than you would do if someone didn't have aphasia, might try different options with a partner as well. You know you get to know what people want, and what works for them, and some people found these very open questions hard to see how to scaffold it. But I still think that there's something quite nice about these visual scales, what does this look like when you start to scale?   Jerry: Absolutely, really powerful tool. And like you said, those comparisons of, "why weren't you a three? Why are you a four? What would it take to get to a five?" Open ended, but gives them the direction to say what they want to say, rather than us constraining that. So just to kind of follow that track of kind of delivering focused brief therapy, and then maybe some of the challenges that you encountered? Can you share a little about that, your experience?   Sarah: Would it help if I talked a little bit about what is solution focused brief therapy?    Jerry: Yeah, why don't we start there? Yeah.    Sarah: It's just one of many psychological therapies. And I have to say, I think my start point for the project was, was probably just, I want to show that it's possible to adapt psychological therapy, and I want to look at the role of speech and language therapists, and I've happened to do it through solution focused brief therapy. I think solution focused brief therapy aligns quite well with my speech therapists’ sort of values of what they want from their work. And it's, in the UK is already quite used by speech therapists. And I think they find it's an approach that they can integrate with other language therapy work, they quite like it. So that was one of my reasons. And also, I had a little bit of training in it before I started my PhD. So, it was sort of on my mind, a therapy approach that I liked. So, to tell you a little bit about it, it originated in America, a family psychological therapies, and it started with Steve De Shazer observing, was one of the originators of the approach, observing family therapy sessions. And he noticed that most of the time these sessions were spent looking at the problem. And just occasionally a bit of therapy time is spent looking at exceptions to the problem. And his observation was that when session time was looking at these exceptions, it seemed to be associated with more progress. And that was kind of the seed of the therapy approach. So, there's a strong part of the therapy approach that says, well, whatever the problem is, there are usually times when the problem is less bad or not even there, and if we look at those times, what's happening then, perhaps that can be the building blocks to help people move forward. So, I would say as an approach, it's less interested in diagnosing problems and looking at problems, and it's more interested in noticing where people want to move towards, where they're wanting to get to. And it's less interested in problem solving and looking at what's going well, what's already going in the right direction that we can capitalize on. And I think, for me, a quite an important part of the approach is this idea that the client is the expert in their own life, not us as therapists, but it's for the client to know what's important to them, what matters to them, where they want to get to. And it's our role to help them work at how they want to move forward. So, that sounds quite straightforward. But actually, it's really quite hard to sort of sit on your hands and not give people advice and not stop to give people advice and tell people what to do. We'll not give people suggestions, but just to, to trust that they will have the resources within them to find their own way forward, so it's our role perhaps to facilitate that happening. And I think there's quite, there's a slight misconception, I think about solution focused brief therapy, that it's a very half glass full approach, and it's not really noticing, not giving space to the problems. And to be fair, sometimes that is how it's applied. And I think I felt really strongly in SOFIA that wasn't what I wanted. From my experience of delivering the approach, I think when someone's had a stroke, and you're a speech therapist, often, sometimes you're the first person ever really had the chance to really talk through what that's like. And I think that type of acknowledgement was always an important part of the approach for me. So, there's a sense of, some people have described those particular solution focused writer who does talks about one particular acknowledgement and one certain possibility, but I've always really liked that as the kind of metaphor for a sense of spending session time really listening to the person and being there with the person and then sort of shifting away when you feel it's right to think about possibility, and helping them to work out how they can live with it. And having belief and hope that it is possible to live with it too. So, there's sort of oscillating between the acknowledgement and possibility and I think that's been, well for me that's an important part of the therapy that we delivered in the trial. This sense of giving people space to talk about what's hard. And I think unless someone's feeling that you're really listening to that, it's quite hard for them, perhaps to want to trust you to make, to talk about how they're going to move forwards. Jerry: Yeah, terrific. Just to highlight some of those key points, that idea that client is the expert in their life and how they live their life. And we really need to inhibit giving our own solutions because they have the capability of coming up with their own. And I just love those two frames, acknowledgement and possibility. So, yeah, terrific. What kind of challenges have you run into in terms of delivering that? Sarah: So, there were three therapists delivering the therapy in the project and I was actually just reading through the interviews quite recently with the other two therapists. So yeah, I had lots of different hats on in this project, which is quite interesting. I think what was positive was that they found a very enjoyable therapy approach, delivering a rewarding and I thought it was feasible for speech therapist to deliver it. I think that where it was more challenging was, I think I found couples work more challenging when I was working with the couples. And I think for me myself, because I have had high quality training in solution focused brief therapy and psychological therapy. And I think for me, I really benefited from that additional training. I think it is you know, we're not couples’ therapists. I think you can feel uneasy going into a session working with a couple where there is a sort of disharmony. So, I think maybe I sort of extra support for therapists in that situation. I think the therapy approach can work quite well, while I think it is challenging. I think the other thing that's challenging is when there's more severe distress. So, in the fellowship project, people could take part whether or not, whatever their skills and developing skills. So, there was a lot of people actually in the project who had a very high developing skills when we started the project, which is quite interesting because the therapy approach is really designed for people with high, you know it was designed helping to make change in other people who didn't really want to make the change happen to everyone which had its own challenges. But the people who were very distressed, I think there was a sense that they needed some real time support to help them to handle that and feel reassured that if someone was really that concerned about their mental health, that they have somebody to turn to. And I think that's really important that we're speech therapists, were not mental health professionals. And if you're working with someone, you think that, yeah, he's got mental health issues that you're concerned about to know that you've got back up somehow and you've got someone that you, it's just not all on your shoulders. So, I think that was a challenge. As I said, this is a challenge that we hadn't anticipated, that there would be people in the project who were really content in themselves, that they found a way to live with their life and they're taking part in the project because they were curious and wanted to contribute to research. And so, they did the therapy with us. And the therapy is designed to help people build change. And these are people who felt a way to live. They didn't really want to be making change. But there was one lady I worked with, a lovely, lovely, lovely lady and by the end of therapy, her first therapy session said, you know what, you seem to be, you know, you found this lovely way of living. Do you want me to come back to do the other five sessions? And she was very keen that I did. And she'd taken part in the project, it was her right to have these sessions. So, she had all six sessions. And then I guess, well, they were very special sessions. We very much sort of more future focus, looking at how you want to be shifting your life going forward wasn't really that much of a thing for her because she didn't. She was very frail and elderly, but she found a way to live with her things in her life. And so, we did a lot of time noticing everything that she was later a very special person. And I remember those were quite profound sessions really, I felt there was a real connection that she wasn't looking to make change. And whether it's quite hard in terms of the project, talking to people in the project who don't want to make change. This clinical trial is all about making change. But I think sometimes there is a value in conversations which don't necessarily lead to change, but there is something about the connection there that's important. Jerry: Absolutely. Just kind of affirming the path that you're on. And like you said yourself, that human connection definitely may not measure the same way, but definitely important. When you were talking about that idea of people that have clinician’s kind of having that back up, it just kind of reminded me of Ian Kneebone's stepped care model and how that is to know, you know, when you're kind of, when you need to hand it off or at least collaborate with someone else for those higher level needs for sure. Can we talk a little bit about the SOFIA trial and kind of where that played in? Sarah: Yes, of course. So, the SOFIA trial was the feasibility randomized control trial and so is underpowered to definitively answer, is this therapy approach effective? So, the questions instead that we're asking from is, is this going to be feasible to scale up into a definitive full scale trial. So, we look at can the approach do this okay? Can we retain people within the project, if we do the assessments right, if we've got the training and support for the clinicians right? Is the therapy approach acceptable? Is it acceptable to deliver this as speech therapists? So, these are the sort of questions. And we recruited 32 people, half of them were randomized into the immediate intervention group. And we had to weight this design so half of them receive the intervention at six months. So, this is a group of 32 people. And in the end, two people withdrew. So, we have 30 people stay to the end of the trial and received therapy. And it was mixed methods. So, we interviewed all 30 of them. So it was, it was very interesting. And it's not so much about you know, have do people with aphasia experience receiving a psychological intervention. So that was a really interesting interview to read and it's quite an exciting stage. We've finished the trial and we were very lucky in the sense that we did our final assessment visits before COVID. And it's a bit poignant reading the interviews because it makes you wonder how people are over the last few months. But yes, so we're at the stage where we've pretty much finished all the analysis now. So, we're just about to start submitting. I don't know if you'd like me to share some of the... Jerry: I was going to say, can we get a little sneak peek maybe before those papers come out? Sarah: Yeah, that would be my pleasure. So, in terms of feasibility outcomes, since it's a feasibility trial, we were really pleased that the primary comparison point, the six months randomization and at that point we collected outcome measures from 30 to 32 people. So, 97 percent, which has really exceeded our expectations. And in terms of people adhering to therapy, so two people withdrew, and so out of 30 people who received the therapy, 29 of them received all six sessions, and one person received five. And to adhere, researchers said they needed to receive at least two, so all good. We recruited on time and on target. And I think there was, we were lucky, and we had a nice buy in from our sights, and I'm so grateful to our sights. And I think they kind of, the speech therapists I they were just really pleased to have a project that they could refer in people with severe aphasia. So, they were very supportive. And, yes, in terms of sort of any outcome measures, primary outcome measures, it seems to work fine. We have minimal missing data. So, thumbs up in terms of the feasibility outcomes, which is so lovely. In terms of the qualitative data, yeah, overwhelmingly the participants liked it. So, I think we can say it was a highly acceptable therapy. There were some kind of things that came through in terms of what they valued about the therapy; they valued having someone notice their achievements and what was their successes, they valued being able to have someone listen to them talk about their hopes and what they were hoping for, for in the future, they valued being able to share their experiences and their distress and have someone listen to them, and they valued connection and companionship. Some of them said one of the best things in it was having fun, having a laugh with a therapist. And that's something I really liked and that's what I really valued. And it came through as this really big thing, their relationship with the therapist, and how that was important when you're going to be a part of therapy for them. In terms of changes, not everyone was wanting to make change. But people talked about you know we have some nice things in terms of feeling better in themselves, in terms of sort of being more able to talk to family and friends, going out a little more. And then we sort of sectored people into four groups in terms of how they respond to therapy. So, they were one group we said was the changed group. So, these are the group of people who the therapy came at a really good time for them. Just constantly it had come at a time when they were in need of some kind of, not a need, but it really benefited them having this therapy approach. It led to sort of meaningful impact for them in their lives. And that was about a third of the group. And then there were two small groups of about five people in each group. There was one group where they called the complementary group, where they were on an upward trajectory, they were making a lot of progress, And the therapy, the research project therapy, was one small part that and I knew that they probably would make an upward projection anyway, but it was a positive thing and it helped them on their way. But we called it complemental. And then there was another little group of about five people that we called discordance. So, they were people who the therapy was misaligned, they liked the therapy and they like their therapist generally, but the therapy was misaligned of what they were looking for. So, they wanted language therapy. They wanted empowerment work. They wanted someone. We weren't at the end of the day psychologists, we were speech therapists, we could have done many therapies with them and that's what they wanted. We did solution focused brief therapy. So, there was a sort of mismatch and they were a bit you know, they wanted exercise. And it's frustrating to kind of think in clinical services, you could have given them that and done solution focused brief therapy around the edges perhaps, would have perhaps part of it for some of them is coming to terms with what they could and couldn't do with the aphasia and that. And then there was another group. It was about a third of the group who we called the connected group, and they weren't looking to make changes from the therapy. They weren't coming into the project trying to, with the idea, and our whole concept of change to come from us as researchers really. They came out of curiosity of contribution and what they really valued was this connection with the therapist, and we called them the connected group. They really liked therapy, the highly valued it, but it was about the connection of the therapist rather than wanting to shift or make changes. And to be fair, I think we found the ending of therapy the hardest. And it made me feel that there's the duty of some kind of ongoing support, which wasn't part of the trial protocol. But I think for them it was, yeah, if I had to run this trial again and if we had people in that sort of connected group, I would think, what kind of, is this important that a part of this is looking at? So that's qualitative. And in terms of the clinical outcomes, as my statistician keeps telling me, he is very much on feasibility trial and the power, but the primary outcome measure, the primary comparison point, which is six months post randomization, it seems to be going in the right direction. But, as my statistician keeps telling me it is the small groups and we can't ever extrapolate from the statistics, but it does seem to be promising. Jerry: Well, that sounds great. I was going to ask you a little bit about the implications of these findings to everyday practice. I think you kind of touched on that. Any kind of takeaways or thoughts on that piece? Sarah: Like I said, it is really encouraging that the speech therapists on the trial found it a positive therapy to deliver. So, it does suggest that speech therapists, who have an interest in this area, if they get training in a kind of brief psychological therapy, it is a possibility. And I would say that sort of the therapists in this trial did have monthly clinical supervision as well as quite a lot of initial training, and they had real time support when they needed it too. So, they had that sense that they felt quite nurtured, I think, within the project. And that was important. I would say the theme of feeling connected just speaks to value that the participants placed in being able to share how they were experiences to suggest that that kind of active listening and being there with someone and sort of listening to how someone is, that's of real value. And if a speech therapist has done that in a session, they should probably come away from that session feeling really proud that they have done something important. And I suppose my other thing is I'm a believer in this joint work between mental health professionals and speech language therapists. And I think going forwards, I know I've personally really valued from it, having mental health professionals in my supervisory team of EBSCO, I urge them for advice and having a kind of clinical support as well. And when you're feeling someone is very, very distressed in recognizing that as a speech therapist, that's fine. And that much of our role is working with mental health professionals. Jerry: That's terrific. I'm looking forward to reading those papers when they come out. Sarah: Thank you. Jerry: I'm on the edge of my seat for sure, it is really important work. In the meantime, is it okay if we share, you have a severe trial resource page, is it okay if we share that link with our listeners? Sarah: Absolutely. Yeah, thank you. Jerry: Excellent. Well, I could continue this conversation all day long, so probably better wind it up. I'm wondering, I just want to give a nod to this as a little bonus. Would you be able to share kind of a nutshell little version of your work on befriending in the SUPERB trial? Sarah: Yes, of course. So, the SUPERB trial has also just come to an end and they're also just writing up papers and yeah. So, that's where people with aphasia, where Mastrov befriended people who have recently come out of hospital with aphasia and the feasibility outcomes, again very, very good and strong in terms of the clinical outcomes. Really encouraging again, the statistician saying we can't over play these. But it is looking very encouraging in terms of the primary outcome measure, which is marriage, and preventing people becoming depressed. So, within SUPERB it was only people who scored as not depressed who were eligible to take part. And in terms of follow up, a 10 month follow up, it does seem that there's a difference between groups in terms of how many people results, in terms of the clinical outcomes and in terms of the qualitative side which is the side I've been most involved in. Encouraging. Yeah, there seems to be something special about an intervention delivered by people with aphasia. And at the end of the day, they can offer something that me as a health professional I can't offer. And yeah, a unique understanding and ability to empathize from having lived with the aphasia, some sort of sense of role modeling as well. This is, it's possible to live with this particular guilt, with the part of the data of experience of the defenders. And I would say that I found it a very challenging intervention to deliver, all of the logistics of organizing appointments and organizing the travel, and it can be quite challenging in terms of if the friend, the person receiving the befriending is upset or changes their mind about wanting intervention. I think that's quite hard, but they found it a very rewarding intervention to deliver and I found it very satisfying that something that was really painful in their life, but being able to use to help other people. And I think that was quite powerful. And I think they felt very pleased to be involved with the trial. And I think what they would highlight is that they were very it was very satisfying experience for them. And they thought it was making a difference, that the supervision and training was really important. And I think the real time support, as well as if they were feeling a bit stuck, that they knew they had someone and they got peer support so they supervision in the group, and I think that was really valuable. I sat in with the person doing the supervision, and I think she was wonderful. So, I think it was a lovely intervention. Jerry: Wow, that's terrific. Again, waiting for that one, too. Well, this has been a fabulous conversation. So, on behalf of Aphasia Access, we thank you for listening to this episode of the Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast. For more information on Aphasia Access and to access our growing library of materials, go to www.aphasiaaccess.org. If you have an idea for a future podcast series or topic, email us at info@aphasiaaccess.org. Thanks again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access.     Resources:  SOFIA trial resource page: https://city.figshare.com/collections/SOlution_Focused_brief_therapy_In_post-stroke_Aphasia_SOFIA_feasibility_trial/4491122    On behalf of Aphasia Access, we thank you for listening to this episode of the Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast. For more information on Aphasia Access and to access our growing library of materials go to www.aphasiaaccess.org If you have an idea for a future podcast series or topic email us at info@aphasiaaccess.org Thanks again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access.

John: So we've been talking about women's roles in society. And are you a stay-at-home momor a working mom?Sarah: Well, I guess I'm both. Right now, I'm on maternity leave and I'm on month six of maternity leave.John: What does that mean?Sarah: So maternity leave is when you have a job but then you become pregnant or you're going to have a baby, maybe adopt, too. So you're going to have a baby, and so you take time off of work to stay home with the new baby.John: Oh, I see. Do you still get paid?Sarah: I do. I get about half of my wage. So I do still get paid and I'm very grateful for that. So I've been at home with the new baby for six months. And I'm going to go back to work next month.John: Oh. What will happen with the baby?Sarah: So I have two kids actually. I have a toddler and a baby. And both of them will go to daycare during the day.John: I see.Sarah: So I signed up for the daycare before the baby was even born. It's really hard to find good daycare that you can afford, that's near your house. So you have to start planning before the baby is even born if you're the type of person who wants to go back to work.John: I see. I don't think many men worry about getting good daycare for their children…Sarah: No.John: When they think about their jobs.Sarah: No. Even when there's a family, and the mother and father both work, still it's the mother that has to do everything with the kids, usually. Usually, the mom has to for example, get the bag ready for the kids to take to daycare. They have to arrange the daycare. They have – the daycare has the mother's phone number, usually.And so, the mom has to do a lot of extra work even though mom and dad both have full time jobs.John: I see. Are you saying that things should be different?Sarah: Yes. I think things should be different. I'm so lucky my husband agrees with me. And my husband, he drops the kids off at daycare and he picks them up and he does the laundry and the dishes. And it helps me to be – and it helps me focus on my career so that I can stay late at work if I need to. I can go to an extra meeting on a weekend. And it makes me feel more fulfilled that it's not my husband's job that comes first.A lot of times women make less money than men and they put their job second to their husband. And it's not equal, and it's not fair. And so, I think that people should work on making things more equal.John: Well, I agree with you.Sarah: Thank you.

John: So we've been talking about women's roles in society. And are you a stay-at-home momor a working mom?Sarah: Well, I guess I'm both. Right now, I'm on maternity leave and I'm on month six of maternity leave.John: What does that mean?Sarah: So maternity leave is when you have a job but then you become pregnant or you're going to have a baby, maybe adopt, too. So you're going to have a baby, and so you take time off of work to stay home with the new baby.John: Oh, I see. Do you still get paid?Sarah: I do. I get about half of my wage. So I do still get paid and I'm very grateful for that. So I've been at home with the new baby for six months. And I'm going to go back to work next month.John: Oh. What will happen with the baby?Sarah: So I have two kids actually. I have a toddler and a baby. And both of them will go to daycare during the day.John: I see.Sarah: So I signed up for the daycare before the baby was even born. It's really hard to find good daycare that you can afford, that's near your house. So you have to start planning before the baby is even born if you're the type of person who wants to go back to work.John: I see. I don't think many men worry about getting good daycare for their children…Sarah: No.John: When they think about their jobs.Sarah: No. Even when there's a family, and the mother and father both work, still it's the mother that has to do everything with the kids, usually. Usually, the mom has to for example, get the bag ready for the kids to take to daycare. They have to arrange the daycare. They have – the daycare has the mother's phone number, usually.And so, the mom has to do a lot of extra work even though mom and dad both have full time jobs.John: I see. Are you saying that things should be different?Sarah: Yes. I think things should be different. I'm so lucky my husband agrees with me. And my husband, he drops the kids off at daycare and he picks them up and he does the laundry and the dishes. And it helps me to be – and it helps me focus on my career so that I can stay late at work if I need to. I can go to an extra meeting on a weekend. And it makes me feel more fulfilled that it's not my husband's job that comes first.A lot of times women make less money than men and they put their job second to their husband. And it's not equal, and it's not fair. And so, I think that people should work on making things more equal.John: Well, I agree with you.Sarah: Thank you.

John: So we've been talking about women's roles in society. And are you a stay-at-home momor a working mom?Sarah: Well, I guess I'm both. Right now, I'm on maternity leave and I'm on month six of maternity leave.John: What does that mean?Sarah: So maternity leave is when you have a job but then you become pregnant or you're going to have a baby, maybe adopt, too. So you're going to have a baby, and so you take time off of work to stay home with the new baby.John: Oh, I see. Do you still get paid?Sarah: I do. I get about half of my wage. So I do still get paid and I'm very grateful for that. So I've been at home with the new baby for six months. And I'm going to go back to work next month.John: Oh. What will happen with the baby?Sarah: So I have two kids actually. I have a toddler and a baby. And both of them will go to daycare during the day.John: I see.Sarah: So I signed up for the daycare before the baby was even born. It's really hard to find good daycare that you can afford, that's near your house. So you have to start planning before the baby is even born if you're the type of person who wants to go back to work.John: I see. I don't think many men worry about getting good daycare for their children…Sarah: No.John: When they think about their jobs.Sarah: No. Even when there's a family, and the mother and father both work, still it's the mother that has to do everything with the kids, usually. Usually, the mom has to for example, get the bag ready for the kids to take to daycare. They have to arrange the daycare. They have – the daycare has the mother's phone number, usually.And so, the mom has to do a lot of extra work even though mom and dad both have full time jobs.John: I see. Are you saying that things should be different?Sarah: Yes. I think things should be different. I'm so lucky my husband agrees with me. And my husband, he drops the kids off at daycare and he picks them up and he does the laundry and the dishes. And it helps me to be – and it helps me focus on my career so that I can stay late at work if I need to. I can go to an extra meeting on a weekend. And it makes me feel more fulfilled that it's not my husband's job that comes first.A lot of times women make less money than men and they put their job second to their husband. And it's not equal, and it's not fair. And so, I think that people should work on making things more equal.John: Well, I agree with you.Sarah: Thank you.

Staying Efficient in Business With Sarah Stein Josh: Gday everyone out there in podcast world. We've got Sarah from Miss Efficiency. We're going to be talking today about how recession-proof your cash flow through efficiency in business. Sarah actually wrote a pretty cool white paper on how to remove paper from your business, which, I guess a bit of an interesting way of looking at it. So Sarah, in business, people are freaking out in business at the moment. If you're still in business, hopefully, what would you say is the number one way to stay efficient, and make sure that you keep your head on the right numbers? Get more tips on how to stay efficient in business at dorksdelivered.com Sarah: So Josh, I think it comes down to the systems that you put in place, and that is, a lot of the time it's the technology that you put in, but there are lots of other things outside of technology that you can do as well. So you know, there's so much technology out there, it can be very overwhelming and we can get overwhelmed with the choice. And then you can get overwhelmed with, you know, jumping at the next shiny thing all the time. So constantly, you're putting new things in place just because it's new and does some whiz-bang thing. But what you might have had already. I think we all are. And I have to pull myself back and think, hang on a second, do I actually need it? It's like anything like, do we need it? Do we need the new car is our current car doing exactly what we need it to do? And it's still safe and you know, it's the same with the technology in your business. So I think when thinking about the systems that you want to put in place in your business, go right back to basics, and map it out on paper. Map out what your objective is like what you actually want to get out of it. And then once you've got that mapped then you'll know which technology to put in place because your map is going to be your guide. So I think there are a few key ones. There's a lot of personal preference because a lot of technology does the same thing. You've got your MIB, Xero and QuickBooks, for example, like I prefer Xero. But there's pros and cons with all of them. So I think to have really good accounting software in place, and then something really good to keep track of your workflow depending on what your businesses and then something to keep track of your customers, and your leads, and, you know, CRM, if you like so that you can keep in front of everybody. So to answer your question, map it out, and then decide what you need. And then, you know, it can evolve and grow from there. It doesn't mean that because you've decided on this today, that's how it needs to stay forever. It just evolves as your business needs change. Josh: You're talking before about do you need this card? Do you need an upgraded car? Is this car fine? I'm guilty of being fooled, I'm going to use the term “fooled” into selling a perfectly good car to make sure that the image that I was representing was what was required by the business and it made no difference at all. No one cared about my car whatsoever. I dropped out a perfectly good car that was perfectly functional, the four-wheel-drive that I still have now is still perfectly fine and functional. But oh, man, what a ripoff. Just coming back to like what you need in your business. And what is the tech that would be good to check out. You told me the different accounting packages, obviously. You touched on some bits and bits about leads versus customers and stuff, which we'll talk about in a bit. But what is the good tech to check out? Sarah: I would say talk to your bookkeeper or your best agent, but you know, you've ruined that, you've ruined that. I think in this instance, cars aren't really our forte. But I think definitely talk to the people who are experts in using it. Do some research. Don't do too much research online because there's too much information. I know if I go online, yeah, there's just too much and it's too overwhelming. And it's like, that's all too hard. I'm not going to do it. Talk to other business owners that you know. So I had a phone call today from a client who was with a friend of theirs who is in a different business to them. So all my clients are on Xero and the friend of theirs was on MIB. And he was having trouble and he was thinking about converting over. So my client got me on the phone, we had a three-way conversation and you know, I could give them some information about MIB and Xero and a few other bits and pieces. So talk to other business owners that you know who are friends because they have a vested interest in it. So they are going to tell you the truth. And it's good to get in You know, other people's perspective, like how we would use Xero for my existing client would be different to how we would have used it for this other business owner. So definitely do your research. But I think, also come in prepared with the knowledge of what you need. So coming back to my scenario before about mapping out what you need. Think about what your current processes are, and evaluate what's manual, what's electronic, what's taking you the most time, what's the thing that you push around your desk the most before you realize, you know, you actually have to do it now. And then think about what your workflow is, what you would like it to be if there's something that you want to be able to do that your current systems don't allow you to do, to have a really good idea of what your needs are. So then when you talk to an advisor, they can say, okay, well based on that, this is what we would suggest to put in place, and based on what your needs are. We have a conversation with people to try and find out what they are currently doing what they would like to do and where they see their business in a few years’ time because maybe what's going to work for them. Now, that might not work in five years’ time. So if we don't think about the bigger picture, you might be doing the wrong thing. So do some research, educate yourself have a clear idea of what you want to get out of the system. And then you can have a really good conversation with an accountant or agent who can help you then put it into place. Josh: That makes a lot of sense. And I know that when I started the business, I decided I'm going to learn everything and I'm going to be the person who wears all the hats and develop the software that worked exactly as I wanted to. I hated the idea of bookkeeping myself, and so I learned everything I could about it, so that I could try and do it in an automated way. I ended up just spending too much time making this software instead of working in the business. Fast forward 12, 13 years we've got fantastic options out there like Xero, mostly online products that do 95% of the reconciliation. And as long as you've got the good bookkeepers in there that can make sure that when there is an anomaly, they're picking up on that and striking that out and making sure that they bring the attention to and fixing it. And we're in a better world now than when I first started building all this stuff out. One thing that I have found, though, is that we introduce into our software stack a better way to manage inbound leads and making sure that we were able to see if people were interested in our services. We’re making sure we're able to see what stage they are at, which is a very different kettle of fish to a lot of the managing an existing customer that's already spending money with you that you're making an invoice and doing service with. When it comes to that, do you differentiate? Or do you see a reason to differentiate between prospects leads and customers? Sarah: So when I first started my business, I was a very good bookkeeper. And I had to learn that I had to be a better business person, because it didn't matter how good I was at, you know, bookkeeping. If I was a crap business person, then I was going to have a crap business. So I had to learn all of these things very, very quickly, and it was a very steep learning curve. And I'm by no means the expert. So, I don't really differentiate leads and prospects. I just think that either clients or soon to be clients. And that's it. And I am quite, I don't know if basic is the right word, but I like to keep things simple. Because we were super busy and we're highly systematised and you know, there's a few of us in our team, we want to make sure it's easy for everybody to follow. And I think if you over complicate things, that's where, you know, cracks start to show. So we use a program called Active Campaign. I can't remember what the other is called. It's like the monkey is the logo. MailChimp. Yeah. So that was great. But all I did was send out the occasional newsletter, and it probably did a lot of things that I didn't do, but that was my failing rather than MailChimp’s failing. But then I moved into Active Campaign and I love Active Campaign. And as part of my onboarding process, like I have quite an extensive onboarding process, but Active Campaign drives a lot of that for me. So everybody goes into Active Campaign, I've got a download from my website. So once you download that, their information goes through. If people book online appointments with me, it goes through Calendly. Again, that automatically filters through to Active Campaign. So I think it's really important to capture a lot of this information, but it's really important to use the automation to do it for you, so that you can concentrate on the gold nuggets. But one of the things that I do so I send out regular communications and with the recent COVID events, I was sending out lots of information because I'm conscious of not bombarding people with too much information, but during that period, there was a lot of stuff to get out. So I was sending just about an update out every couple of days, just about, and I got so many messages back saying, this is amazing, thank you so much for sending it through, it's really nice to be able to have this information come through and we don't have to, you know, try and find it and work our way through. And these are comments from people that aren't even my clients, you know, so that was really great. Josh: The beautiful thing about that, like if you're producing that without like it, you're producing that and throwing bloody Aussie accent and I understand what you're blooming saying as opposed to some of the legislative legal crap you read on some of the government, nothing against the government websites, but you just read it you go, okay, why did Betty bend. Some of the examples I'm reading, this makes no sense. This is too hard. Sarah: I think they try to make it so simple. They actually overcomplicate it. Josh: Oh, absolutely. I had a look, and I read the sentence twice. And I thought, okay, I missed the comma on the first time, and it completely changed the meaning of the sentence. And I bought that to my account. And I said, How do you interpret this? And this was on one of the cash flow stimulus things. And he interpreted it in the polar opposite way that I did. And we ended up coming to a conclusion that yes, he'll do some more research and find out the answer for us like, you're exactly right. It can make it more complicated than what it would be helpful. Sarah: Yes, yeah. But one of the really cool things just coming back to Active Campaign, which is one of the things that I love about it, is when I get a new client. So in the old days, I would send them an email because I'm very much a word skill. I will always say the name up before I pick up the phone, although COVID has changed that slightly, but in the old days, I would send a new client an email that was, if they'd printed it out, it would have been 15 pages long with all of the information that I thought that they needed to know. And you know, realistically I know that they're not going to read that, because who has time to read a 15-page email seriously. So one of the things that I've done in Active Campaign is part of, you know, a few other programs that I've got linked together when a new client comes on board. I haven't onboarding automation that triggers through Active Campaign. So as soon as they get the tag on their contact, if you like that they are now a client. This automation automatically triggers and it's basically that 15-page email drip feed out over a number of weeks. So it's not too much information for this client to read. And, you know, the very first email is basically saying welcome. And that's it, you know, it's like a couple of paragraphs, and that's it. Then the next day, they'll get one saying, this is what you can expect next. And that's it. Just, you know, there's images in it and it's nice and pretty and easy to read. Then a couple of days later, they'll get one that introduces them to the team. How they should communicate with us. And then three days later, they'll get one that shows them how to set up receipt bank. Within this time period, I'm working in their file and have set up receipt bank. So it's all really nice and seamless. And so it gets the information to the client that I need them to see. It gets delivered to them in a format that's easy for them to read. And it's just keeping those touchpoints. So the I think there's about 10 emails that they get delivered out over the course of six weeks. And by the end of it, you know, we might have done the best, we've pulled everything together. It's just a really nice introduction. I think that's the way that I intend for the relationship to be so that's how it starts. And it's setting some really nice groundwork at the beginning of the relationship. Josh: Similar to what you said actually on this. I started off the same. I was fantastic at I could cure cancer for computers. But if that said on the show, it's not going to be any benefit to anyone. So I had to become better at marketing and better business in that sense. What you've said there, you've increased the amount of touchpoints, you've decreased the friction on them not reading the email saying I'll do that later, because it's too long. And I'll tell you right now, I've got two emails sitting there. He said, he's attached a Word document, he said, look on page four, section three, that's a bit of thing is going to be most interesting, but make sure to read the whole lot first. And I was like, ah, I've got other stuff to do. You've removed the friction, which is great. You've increased the touchpoints, which is great. You've built these all in an automated way, which means you're not sitting there having to do this or group it to them. Out of interest did you build it all out yourself? Sarah: I’m a bit of a control freak. So I did do it myself. But I'm super proud that I was pregnant and I've had the baby in the end of it. There was this baby. It's like, yeah, look what I did. So it was very, very cool. I really, really enjoyed doing it. and it was completely outside of my comfort zone, but Active Campaign is amazing. I mean, they're American based. I think they have some, some support people in Australia, but they were just awesome. I did have a couple of little triggering issues. But I got onto the support team, and they helped me and that was just, it works brilliantly. So I've done a few of those now. So yeah, and I love Active Campaign. Josh: You're preaching to the preacher, okay. Not a half years ago, and we started using Active Campaign thought it was absolutely the best thing since sliced bread. And it has just never ceased to amaze us. Every single part of it's amazing Sarah: But some of your listeners that might be thinking, ah, that's just too hard. Or they might jump in and think, oh, you know, it's really, really complicated. It's really not. I'm someone who deals with technology every day, but I have my little comfort bubble as well. And so when I first started with Active Campaign, it was way outside my comfort zone. The person that put me on to Active Campaign, I said, you know, I'm a bit of a technophobe. And he's like, what do you mean? You are the biggest propellerhead I know. And I'm like, so funny but he would say that. But I didn't know it. I just was a little bit patient with myself and kind to myself, you know, I can work this out. And there are hundreds of people that will do it for you. If you want someone to maybe just build the bones of it for you. And then you're good to run with it. Yeah, I did it myself because it's a bit of that control thing. I think it's great and like I said, this heaps more that I could do with it, but this is working for me at the moment. Josh: I think it's something everyone should be having in business. It is a lifesaver for us. My partner Sarah, her whole business is set up completely in Active Campaign. This podcast sounds like a commercial for Active Campaign. But her business, hair and makeup business from start to finish is completely Active Campaign. People come through on her website, she's able to see if they've clicked through from AdWords, she is able to see where their sources are, if they fill out a form, once they fill out the form and then sends them a welcome email and then a would you like to get a quote and then they fill out a few bits and pieces since them off a quote. She's asleep watching and then they've already got a quote they've already got a tentative date in mind, she has a quick phone call with them, make sure that they're all happy to understand what they want. And there's nothing out of the ordinary that they're looking to get to this special day. Then after that automatically sends across into her calendar takes all the payments and sends out for review emails in bits and pieces later. She's managing a team of five staff, the meat and gravy that the most of it is all Active Campaign. So I think it's great and it's definitely a tool that makes businesses more efficient. I'm really happy to hear you using it. Something that when we talk to businesses a lot of time they're like, oh, what's Active Campaign. Oh no, we use MailChimp. It's fine. And from your perspective, when you took the leap, how would you for someone who is using MailChimp without throwing dirt at them, like, how would you say the differences between the two products? They're both great products, but they’re both different products. Sarah: Okay, so I think it's like doing your accounts in Excel and then going to Xero. You know, they both give you the same outcome. They both do the same thing, you're tracking your expenses or whatever, but there's just, you know, it's just a lot prettier. It does an awesome job, it’s easier for you. There's less grunt work. And, I enjoyed it, I didn't mind MailChimp, it was easy for me to use, but literally, all I did was send newsletters, and I didn't do it very regularly. I was pretty useless at being regular. I didn't track any of the reporting. I'm pretty sure it does do some automation, but I didn't know about it and didn't know how to do it. And I was probably on the free version. So I didn't see the value in it, maybe if I was paying for it, I would have worked harder at it. So I don't think actually, it's an issue with MailChimp, it was a totally me issue. But then when I moved to Active Campaign, I just noticed all the bells and whistles that may or may not be in MailChimp. I think making the move to it, it had a mindset shift for me as well about okay, I've got to get serious and I've got to do this. So I've been in business 18 years, I moved to Active Campaign within the last five years. So it just goes to show that you don't have to have all of your ducks in a row within the first year or two. And, they're constantly moving anyway. You know, sometimes I'll make a big change to my business or you know, there'll be a big shift, and there often is at various times and I often referred to myself, as you know, a 15-year-old startup or an 18-year-old startup Because it seems so new now because we've made such a big change. And it doesn't mean that necessarily you were doing things wrong before. It just means your business has changed and you've evolved with the way that you do things. Josh: The Excel versus Xero analogy. I'm going to use again if that's okay with you, that's amazing, that's perfect. In my opinion, MailChimp is fantastic at making campaigns or newsletters. It's not fantastic at allowing for touchpoints and customer attention and interactions and seeing what they're doing on your website and how they're working with you and tagging and then integrating into other systems, and Active Campaign has its campaigns. And if you're comparing the two, Active Campaign’s campaign module versus MailChimp is what I'd say is about the same but it's just there's so much more in Active Campaign versus MailChimp. But if anyone is interested actually in checking out a little bit more on how some of this automation can work, Sarah has got a little gift for you. And that's if you jump across to Missefficiency.com/book, you can jump on there. She's got the ability for you to check out how to save up to five hours, is that right of your workweek? Sarah: Yes. So there's a free download on my website, which gives you the tools to be able to, say, five hours a week and your business. It basically comes back to systems and technology. And, that's all it is. I think you can be, anybody can build a great business that I think the fundamentals comes down to people, technology, and the systems that you put in place. I've actually written a book, and like, it's not a download. It's an actual book, and it's all about systematising your business. It's called “Wow, I'm in Business... Your Journey From Overwhelmed to Organised”, and I did write it based on an experience that I had with a client. So one of the other programs we use is Dropbox, which you there's lots of other programs that are similar to that. That's just the one that we use. But I had a client, that's still a client, they own a pub in Central Queensland. And they've had it for a while. And the client rang me one day during the week and said, You know, I'm completely overwhelmed. I need you to come and just sort things out. And we'd already put in place Xero and you know, a few other bits and pieces and I'm like, Oh, okay. She says, you just have to come. So she booked me on a flight. And the next Friday, I was heading up there, and I spent the weekend there. They live about an hour and a half from the airport. So she'd come and pick me up and I had known her for a long time. She came and picked me up from the airport, and we were driving out there. And I could tell that she was super, super stressed and just wasn't herself, because I would always see her in Brisbane and you know, she's bubbly and bright, and yeah, I could tell that she was really, really stressed and overwhelmed. And anyway, I spent four days out there, and I didn't do a great deal. So they've got a pub, a restaurant, a bottle shop and some cabin accommodation. We already had Receipt Bank and Xero. So I put in Dropbox so that she would have a place to store her information. I developed some forms for her staff so that she'd have employee packs. I developed some forms that could be used for bookings and accommodation. So we couldn’t put too much technology and because the internet up there is not always that great. So, I just did a few bits and pieces like that. I didn't think it was anything too major. It just seemed like common sense to me. But then when she was driving me back to the airport, she got out and she looked like a different person. It was literally like this huge weight had been lifted off her shoulder. And she told me, I'm so grateful to have you here and to do all of this stuff for me. I'm thinking, you know, I didn't really do a great deal but you know, and then as I was on the plane coming home, I'm thinking, you know, the transformation that I saw in her mindset and her presence and physically just within a few days of me doing something that I thought was kind of easy, got me thinking. By the end of my fight -it was about an hour and a half- I had basically written that book in my head. I was to take that overwhelm away and remember why you got into business in the first place, reignite that passion, because you can't put two systems and great things in place, if you are feeling burdened and bogged down. So the first thing that the book talks about is reigniting that passion. And then we can talk about putting systems in place. There's lots of templates and bits and pieces that you can download from the website. But it was kind of life-changing for me as well because I sort of took for granted how easy it is for me, but it's not always easy for other people. But it's the same effect if I turn it around if I go into some buddies business where I'm needing help, I'm completely overwhelmed, but it's really easy for them. So yeah, that's what the book is about. Josh: Well, I definitely think if anyone is interested in the book sounds like a great story that's I know I'm in the process of writing another book myself. One of my friends said, if you think reading books, try writing a book. What you said there is actually really, really good. Sometimes you have the knowledge and you take it for granted that everyone has that same knowledge and you've got these hidden gems that you help people out and they just overly grateful, and sometimes I felt I thought people were being like, taking the piss. If anyone is looking for a bookkeeper who goes above and beyond and is 100%, not your ordinary book make sure you contact Sarah, Miss Efficiency, she's going to be able to help you out. And as you can already hear from a wonderful knowledge, she's stubborn enough to stick in there and make sure that she's putting in the right solutions for you. Yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to go through before we finish off on the podcast? Sarah: We've probably touched on some really good stuff. Maybe we'll save this for another occasion. But I think cash flow would be the next conversation to have that can take your business to the next level. And particularly in times like these, you know, who would have thought there would ever be, you know, a pandemic in our lifetime. If that doesn't make you realise how important good financial literacy is, then nothing will. Josh: Probably save it for another time for the moment. It's own episode in its entirety, I think. But I really appreciate you coming on the episode and giving our listeners a bit of a view into the things that you do. Sarah: Thank you for having me. Josh: If anyone has any questions, make sure to jump across to miss efficiency.com.au, and leave us some love. If you have any comments and reviews for us, make sure to jump across iTunes. Leave us some love. Give us some feedback. And everyone, stay well out there with the COVID around the place and stay healthy.

On February 24, 2020 we published Podcast 181, "Live Therapy with Sarah: Shrinks are Human, Too!" This was a live session with Sarah, a certified TEAM-CBT therapist, conducted at my Tuesday psychotherapy training group, because Sarah was struggling with intense anxiety, bordering on panic, during  therapy sessions with her patients. It was a phenomenal session with outstanding results. The Hidden Emotion technique was the main focus of that session, bringing to conscious awareness some feelings of anger and resentment that she'd been sweeping under the rug. This is a common cause of anxiety. But a month or so after that session, Sarah relapsed in a big way, so I agreed to treat her again during the psychotherapy training group at Stanford, and Dr. Alex Clarke was my co-therapist. This time, we used very different treatment techniques. Once you've recovered, the likelihood of relapse is 100%--that's because no one can be happy all the time. We all hit bumps in the road from time to time, and when you do, your "fractal" will come into prominence again. This means that the same kinds of negative thoughts and feelings will return in an almost identical form. This can give you the chance to defeat them again and strengthen the positive circuits in your brain. That's exactly what happened to Sarah. Approximately one month after the first treatment session, she had a viral infection, and began taking large amounts of Advil to combat the symptoms. This led to severe feelings of nausea, followed by panic. Multiple trips to the doctor failed to reveal any diagnosable cause for her somatic symptoms, aside from the possibility of Advil side effects. However, the discomfort was so severe that she panicked, fearing that she had a more severe medical problem that the doctor had overlooked. She lost 13 pounds over the next two months, and requested an emergency TEAM-CBT session, which Dr. Clarke and I were very happy to provide, since live work almost always make for superb teaching. If you take a look at Sarah's Daily Mood Log, you'll see that the upsetting event was waking up Sunday morning still sick and anxious for the 100th day in a row. She circled nine different categories of negative emotions, and all were intense, with several in the range of 80 to 100. and she had many negative thoughts, including these. Please note that she strongly believe all of these thoughts: Negative Thoughts % Now 1.    I should be able to defeat my anxious thinking and reduce my suffering. 95 2.    If I can’t heal my own anxiety, I’m an inadequate hack of a TEAM-CBT therapist. 95 3.    I was strong, confident, vivacious. Now I’m fragile, weak, and self-doubting. 100 4.    My anxiety is slowing me down—I should be able to do more and take on more. 100 5.    Something serious is wrong with my stomach, but now with Covid-19, I won’t be able to get medical intervention and testing. 70 6.    I’m not as effective in my clinical work when I’m upset and anxious. 85 7.    I might get panicky during a session and screw up. 80 8.    I should always do more. 85 After empathizing, I asked Sarah about her goals for the session. She said she wanted greater self-confidence and less anxiety, and said her husband had theorized that if the anxiety disappeared, her somatic symptoms would also go away. But when we did Positive Reframing, Sarah was able to pinpoint more than 20 overwhelming benefits of her intense negative feelings, including many awesome and positive qualities and core values that her negative thoughts and feelings revealed about her. This always seems to be a shocking and pleasant discovery for the patient! At this point, we used the Magic Dial to see what Sarah wanted to dial her negative feelings down to, as you can see here. Then we went on to the Methods portion of the session, using techniques like Identify the Distortions, Externalization of Voices, Acceptance Paradox, and more. We also had to revert back to the Assessment of Resistance once again when Sarah began to fight strenuously against giving up her self-critical internal voice. We did a Cost-Benefit Analysis on the advantages and disadvantages of being self-critical and not accepting her fragileness, weaknesses, and flaws.  Once we "sat with open hands" and listed all the reasons for her to continue criticizing herself, she suddenly had a change of heart and really poured herself into crushing her negative thoughts. It was interesting that as she began to blow her negative thoughts away, she suddenly got hungry for the first time in months!  If you click here, you can see how she felt at the end of the session. It was a mind-blowing session, with much potential for learning. Rhonda, Dr. Clarke and I hope you enjoy it! Here were some "teaching points I sent to the tuesday group members after the session. This could not have been done in a single session. At least in my hands, a two hour session is massively more cost-effective than a bunch of single sessions. But even then, you have to have a plan and move quickly. Although you all said wonderfully admiring things to our “patient” during the E = Empathy phase of the session, few or none of you used Thought Empathy or Feeling Empathy, which is vitally important. I thought that Fabrizio did a magnificent job with “I Feel” Statements, expressing genuine warmth and compassion. As usual, resistance was the key, and could not have been overcome with efforts to “help” or attempts to use more M = Methods. Learning the dance of reverting instantly to A = Assessment of Resistance is key (revisiting this when the patient resists during M = Methods. But this requires “sensing” that the patient is resisting during Externalization of Voices, for example. You have to kind of “smell” what is happening, and then suddenly change direction. You also have to be able to “see” that the patient is absolutely committed to some underlying schema or belief, like “I should always be strong and vivacious,” etc. The Assessment of Resistance cannot just be an intellectual exercise, as it might then revert to “cheer-leading.” Emotion and tears are crucial, and amazing work was done by Sarah, our “patient,” during the tears. She gave herself compassion at that moment. But tears alone without the structure would not have had nearly the impact. Skillful therapy integrates multiple dimensions at the same time. It cannot be formulaic. It's an art form, based on science, and it is data-driven, based on the patient's ratings at the start and end of the session. During the Externalization of Voices, I would recommend that you NEVER settle for a “big” win. Shoot for huge, and stick with the same thought for as many sessions as necessary to get to “huge.” During the role playing I switched back and forth from Ext of Voices to Paradoxical Double Standard and then back frequently, as they both draw on different sources of pretty incredible healing power. As a therapist, I never give in to a patient’s feelings of hopelessness, because rapid and dramatic recovery is usually possible. Relapse Prevention Training (RPT) will now be necessary, since NTs always return. RPT only takes about 30 minutes. I apologize for taking over last night, but felt my strongest commitment is to provide relief for the person in the “patient” role. Sometimes what you think of as your worst “flaw” (eg being suddenly weak and fragile and fearful) can be your greatest asset in disguise, once you accept your flaw(s). But we fight against acceptance, thinking that if we beat up on ourselves enough, something wonderful will happen. And, of course, the self-criticism can sometimes reap big dividends. At the same time, I try to remind myself that self-acceptance is the greatest change a human being can make. The goal of therapy is not just feeling somewhat better, but getting to enlightenment and joy. That's what happened tonight! After the session, I received this awesome email from Sarah: Thank you from the bottom of my heart, David, Alex, and all members of our training group who were present tonight. Such beautiful contributions from all, and I appreciate so deeply this 2nd opportunity to do personal work, especially given that we are ALL going through difficulties during this Covid-19 crisis (or in general). I feel so much lighter, even enlightened, ate some pot roast for dinner (What??? I haven't had an appetite for something like that in a LONG time... and find myself looking forward to my sessions with my patients tomorrow). And I also know I'll have moments of relapse, but I really felt like I finally defeated those thoughts and especially the core belief. Stay healthy and safe everyone, I look forward to opportunities in the future when we reunite, to be in support of YOU. Best, Sarah Rhonda, Alex and I want to thank you, Sarah, once again, for your tremendous courage and generosity! David and Rhonda

Sarah Roberts, birth photographer, shares her birth experiences and journey to becoming a birth photographer. We discuss the rhetorical role of being a birth photographer in the community and how her profession honors the birth experience.   TRANSCRIPT:   Sara Welcome to the Birth Words podcast. Today we have a special guest, my friend Sarah Roberts. She is a lifestyle photographer and specializes in birth photography. She is here today to tell us about her stories of birth with her three children and the role that language played in those births. So welcome, Sarah!   Sarah Thank you!   Sara It's great to have you here. I'm going to just jump in with some questions. And for any of these, feel free to answer them specific to one of your pregnancies and births or kind of touch on all of them, whatever just comes to mind as being most relevant. Because I know you have three different experiences to draw from. So, my first question is, what words did you use to identify yourself as an expectant mother and as a laboring mother, and where did these words come from? Did you read books? Did they come from family members, your personal experiences, or maybe from your care provider? Where did these words come from? That you identified yourself with.   Sarah I think that's kind of hard, I didn't really enjoy, like, during the actual pregnancy, I don't think I really identified with any particular words. I think in my mind I was like, feeling: how do I want for this to go? Do I want to lean towards my friends who went unmedicated and all natural or do I just want to lean towards, you know, having a hospital birth and having the medications that I need, and that will help. So I kind of identified myself in those terms. And I really felt like I didn't have any other knowledge. And I'm thinking specifically more of my first pregnancy because it was, I felt like, just the most impactful for me because it was the first one. But I think maybe the biggest thing that I identified with was, which is kind of sad, it was dealing towards the weight gain. I had I gained about 40-ish pounds during that pregnancy, which was, you know, it's hard. It's hard to do that. And then, one of my doctors mentioned to me that I shouldn't gain any more weight. And I was about six months in, or maybe halfway I can't remember. And that was so hard for me to hear because, here I am feeling like I'm doing all I can, I'm working to create, I'm creating a child within me, and then to mention that what I'm doing is something wrong because I'm eating too much and being too lazy, I don't know. And I was, I felt kind of stuck. I didn't know what to do about that, like, how do I, I mean, I have these cravings, I'm hungry all the time, and you're telling me not to gain any more weight. And so that was kind of impactful for me. And in fact, when I went into labor, he was there, he was the doctor on call, and I was really disappointed. I didn't want him to be there during something so pivotal. Luckily, he was there while I went into the hospital, and I just was like, I don't want to deal with him. I have really hard feelings about it what he told me.  But fortunately, all he did was break my water, and administer and he left and there was a shift change. And so, by the time I delivered, it was a new doctor who I felt more comfortable with. So, anyway, there you go!   Sara No, thank you for sharing that. I think that's really important because, like, this one thing that he said, totally affected your relationship with him and the trust that you felt and the comfort, the level of comfort that you had when you were doing this awesome work not only during birth, but throughout your pregnancy. And, you felt like his words acknowledged only one thing that he was judging wasn't being done, as he would recommend, and didn't acknowledge all the amazing things that you were doing exactly as you should be doing and that were going so well. And it sounds like he didn't give any additional advice. Like, if he really was concerned that there shouldn't be more weight gain, then you'd hope that he would also give some tips or like guidance about how to healthfully manage that and still be able to get the nutrients that you and your baby need. And you know, and it sounds like it--    Sarah Yeah well, and even if he did, I probably wouldn't hear it, you know, because I was so focused on how he said it. And the way he said it was just so negative to me. And if I had a better relationship before with him, maybe it would have made a difference to or even mentioned, the more positive things. I don't remember any of that. So it was just that negative thing that I focused on.   Sara That makes a lot of sense. Because, when you are an expectant woman, you are doing so much good and there are some really hard things that you're sacrificing for, and it's really hard to not have people verbally acknowledge that and only verbally acknowledge, like, what you feel like they're saying you're doing wrong. I think that's huge. I'm sorry that that happened. I hope that you had more supportive care providers in the future, and sounds like even among the team of doctors, you were working with that was just kind of one thing that you were glad to get away from. Okay. And let's talk about your birth experiences. Can you remember any words that you used, or that others use, to help you frame the experience? Some people have, you know, preconceived ideas about how birth is going to feel either physically, emotionally, or what. What it is like what is the process of birth? Can you remember in your different birth experiences, how you approach the idea of labor and birth?   Sarah I, I don't know.  I don't feel like I have anything like that shaped what I knew. I mean, all I was just thinking for each one, it was going to be a big surprise. Like, I didn't know what would happen. Even though, I mean granted, yeah, your cervix is going to dilate and you're going to... Your water is going to break, you know, but the sequence of things… how that’s going to happen, the station of baby, you know... I really feel like I just did myself a huge disservice and not finding out, or, you know, having responsibility enough to look up that stuff on my own. I read some of the materials from, like, the offices that I went to, but it was more like the process of birth and, I don't know, I don't feel like, I don't know, I've kind of detached from that. And so, I guess I don't have any. I mean, I think it was more of an unknown, and a little bit of fear because each one was just different, but it's kind of the same process. With the last one I was a little bit more experienced obviously, having two, but at the same time, deciding to go unmedicated for the third one, just I think I went in very unprepared to know what, because if I had gone in knowing: “okay, here's where I am at now, I'm heading into transition, and this is what I can expect it's going to get hard, but then it's going to be close to being done,” you know, but I didn't have that. And I don't remember my moto, I feel like it was such a quiet you know, thing, you know, even in the visits beforehand, nothing like to help prepare me and I don't know, maybe I just didn't ask questions. I didn't know what to ask still, even the third time around. It's so embarrassing to me, but I share this because I want others to not do this too. And it's not until I got into birth photography that really understand it so much better now, and I'm close friends with all these doulas and I hear this all the time and it's like, “Okay, the next time around, I know what's going to happen. I know what to anticipate. It’s going to be kind of different. Because of my experience with the third one.” Anyways, so I don't know if that answers your question.   Sara I think you make really good points by just saying, I think there's no reason to feel embarrassed or sad because so many women approach birth exactly the way that you did and that I did with my first birth experience.  In that, many people do all the time that they don't really have, like you said, I say: “What words did you use to frame your experience?” And you're like: “I don't know, it just kind of went into it.” And I think it's reflective of, I mean, I think that we use language, we use words, in part to reflect our knowledge and experiences, and you didn't really have knowledge or experiences. So it makes sense that you didn't have any words to frame the experience for you. But I love that you're saying that you want that to be not the norm, right? You want that to be different for other women because I think part of the thing is that we don't like birth, it’s a taboo subject in some circles. I've been a doula for a couple of years and like, just this last time I was with my parents was the first time that I felt like my dad was like actually asking questions about it.  He's not, like, getting into the nitty gritty details of birth, but, like, actually asking, “so what do you do with your clients?” And before, he was just kind of like, “Oh, you do that birth stuff, like that's weird” and would just, like, I just felt uncomfortable every time we had an exchange because it felt like something he didn't feel comfortable talking about, which made me feel devalued. And I think that we need to, in our society, show that we value birth more just by speaking about it more. Because not having words to talk about something means that you're lacking a lot more than just words. So, does that ring true with what you're saying?   Sarah Yes. And also, as you're talking it made me also realize, like, I associate pregnancy birth with pain, right? Because, there's the epidural. That's the fallback. You know, if you're in pain, just get an epidural and, and even like, baby showers are kind of a weird thing to go to, people have weird feelings about baby showers. Some love going to or you know, maybe it's for the social aspect. But others view it as a place in the platform to talk about their negative birth experiences. Because I think that they end up having these negative experiences because of the way birth is shaped for them, like, whether it's what people other people have said, you know, negative birth experiences, like just kind of create more negative birth experiences, just because that's what you think, that's what you hear. And you think that's the norm. And so, then women want to feel maybe validated in their decisions to use interventions, you know, or to just be a passive participant and have the doctor just tell them what to do. Or they just have these painful experiences that they just didn't get to process and work through. And so they use baby showers as a place to do that. And so here they are, talking about negative birth experiences in front of an expectant mother who's going to have a baby soon. It's like the worst place ever for that. So we need to change our, we need to change our society and how we, we talk about birth. And we like granted Yeah, if you had a bad experience, yeah, let's talk about it and let's work through it. And but let's see how we can change it to it doesn't always have to be like that it can be power empowering, and it burns is such a sacred event and you're creating life and you're helping a little person come into this world. And it's so special and it's so amazing. And we need to give it that. It's not just some terrible ordeal that women have to go through. And it's something like, oh, we're we're all victims in this.  No, we are not victims, and we are not martyrs. And, we can be champions as we bring in the next generation and if we can help others, and cheer them on to do the same.    Sara I love everything that you just said. I just want to like stamp a big “amen!” right there. That's awesome. I think that critically important, everything you just said. And it made me want to know how you got involved in birth photography and what role you see that playing in like this societal change that you feel like needs to happen around birth?   Sarah Well, I feel like it was just such a thing I stumbled on. I really didn't, I didn't anticipate myself ever doing this. I've always been interested in photography. But I think what made the huge difference for me was my friend and neighbor Danny Reed, becoming a doula and her passion for birth. It just is so infectious. It just, uh, she would talk about it and talk about positive things about birth and her excitement with helping women having a positive birth experience by helping them give them extra support and whatnot. And was just so pivotal in my, in my direction, and  I have a new birth photographer. She lives in my neighborhood area and I didn't even think of that. But when I went to my sister's baby shower, she lived in Idaho at the time, and she was going to be scheduled for a C section because her baby was breached and I had brought my camera.  I went up with my other sister, we were going to have a weekend of it, and the next day was going to be her baby shower and we found out that the doctor changed the induction date to, or the C section date to the day of the baby shower. And so, I don't know what, not what possessed me, but I don’t know what came into my mind like, I should take a picture of a birth like, I didn't even think of the other birth photographer I knew.  I didn't even think of it being a, like, a career option for myself. I just thought that would be fun to document and see and I want to see it I you know, I was kind of fascinated by a C section and so the stars aligned, I was able to be in the room with everyone and take pictures and it was such an emotional, amazing event, watching my nephew be born. And I get a little emotional, because it was so wonderful to see, so beautiful.  And my sister, of course, is emotional and she was able to see her her precious little boy being born and I got to document what was happening.  And, because she is there on the table, couldn't really see much, and her baby was passed through the little window to be cleaned up and foot stamped and measured and all that stuff and so she didn't get to see all that.  And, I got to get those first pictures of them as a family and and then later on I did some of her nursing him, and for the first time I got pictures of him getting bathed for the first time, and all of that was just like wow! What a high and emotional high was on. I wanted to do it again and again and again. And so that's, that was my start of it. And so it was it was a really amazing event for me.   Sara That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that.   Sarah I guess I didn't really finish your other question was, well, and now I see so many others have experiences where they're just like, you know, birth is not such an amazing event for them, for whatever reason or another, whether it was in their control or not. And, I want to help change that.  I view myself as a birth worker even though I'm just documenting things, I feel like it's an important aspect of birth work and making changes.  In the birth photography course i'm actually taking right now, it's saying they are saying people have used, like providers have looked at photography from birth, and seen things like, “Oh, we can change this, we can make this better for the patient.” And so, positive changes are happening and people are even like, I didn't know I, I could do this option, but because I saw it in a picture; until I saw that, I didn't know it was an option. And so you know, women are seeing these options happen, and it's empowering them more. And I think the more we empower women in birth, the more that they will be able to recover after birth and be able to pick themselves up and have less problems with postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety. I feel like those are major, major, not consequences, but things that happened because of poor birth experiences, just things that, traumatic things that happened to them during labor and delivery. And so we can, if we can avoid it, as best as we can, then let's do that and help these women to not, not have as bad a time with depression and anxiety afterwards.   Sara I think that's huge. And I think you were talking earlier about how birth is a sacred event. And like, I think that as you are a photographer in that situation, you're showing your belief that it's just this beautiful, transformative sacred event. And being a photographer there like legitimizes that, that sanctity. Just like you would want a wedding photographer at a really that really important event and you would want it at your baby's christening or blessing or whatever, we photograph important moments in our lives. So I think that you're doing a huge service of removing the stigma or the taboo of birth by just saying, “Look at this beautiful, amazing transformative experience.” And I want it to be memorable and shareable. So I think that's huge.   Sarah Yes, exactly. And, I was able to photograph Danny's pregnancy or, excuse me, birth a couple years ago with her last baby and she kept saying how, how she was able to process her birth again, because I think we want to, we want to talk about our birth story over and over again. It's, it's helpful, it's processing, you know, it's healthy to process that and to remember what happened and the events that happened. And when you have pictures to add to that or video which I am working on too, but video even and hearing the noises and seeing the baby come out. it's just so empowering. You don't really remember those things when you're in the moment giving birth. And so it helps to have the words with it, as well as the images together to help create, recreate that, that event and that story that forms you. That's part of your history. That's, that's who you are.   Sara Thank you. I'm going to keep thinking about all those things you just said, because I've been thinking a lot about birth stories and why we tell them and what sort of like what the rhetorical purposes and I think that photography is a really important part of that. So, I'm going to keep thinking about that. And I feel like our interview has gone a different way than, like, with the questions that I sent to you. But I'm so glad that it did, because I really appreciate all the thoughts that you've shared. And I think that our listeners will too. So before we wrap up, will you let them know how they can follow you on social media, your website, all of those things.   Sarah Okay, my website is www.yellowkitephoto.com and, using that handle @yellowkitephoto, you can reach me on Instagram and Facebook. And, I just would love if you followed me, even if you're not interested or, or whatever, it's important to share and to embrace the stigma of birth being a taboo thing, something that shouldn't be seen and, so give it a follow and share with others if you feel like it's inspiring to you and would inspire others.   Sara Great. Thank you so much, Sarah!   Sarah Thank you. This is so wonderful to talk about. I love talking about birth!   Sara Great. Me too!

22nd Aug 2018 - Dear Sarah - Thank you #MyStory

Sarah Quarantotto: The Story of Miriam's House - Ending the Cycle of Homelessness Sarah Quarantotto joined Miriam's House in 2010, after working for a number of years in the Lynchburg area with local social service and mental health agencies.  She has immensely appreciated the opportunity to lead an organization with such a rich history of empowering families and individuals made vulnerable by homelessness.  She has a Bachelor of Science in Psychology and a Master of Social Work from Virginia Commonwealth University.  When not working to end homelessness, Sarah is spending time with her husband, Jeremiah, and their two children exploring the outdoors and beauty of Central Virginia. Interview Transcript Hugh Ballou: Welcome to today's Nonprofit Exchange. Today we are going to tell a story of a very successful nonprofit, and it happens to be in the city where I live, Lynchburg, Virginia. Russell, how is it out in Denver today? Russell Dennis: Nice and toasty. Beautiful blue skies. It's been clouding over very quickly in the afternoons. We are approaching three figures out here. It's been good because my tan will start to pop. Hugh: We are in the mountains of western central Virginia, and it is a lovely day. Overcast and threatening to rain. We have the old mountains here, the ones that have been rained on and smoothed off. You have those young mountains. We have been on an adventure interviewing some really interesting people. I just met Sarah Quarantotto. Did I say that right? Sarah Quarantotto: Yeah. Yep. Hugh: Just met Sarah last week at my rotary meeting, where she was presenting. I was really impressed with the story about this nonprofit she is the executive director for. I asked her to come on and tell the story from the leader standpoint. Where was the organization? Where is it now? Sarah, tell us a little bit about yourself and what your passion was for wanting to do this job. Sarah: My name is Sarah Quarantotto, and I am the executive director of Miriam's House. I have been a social worker here in central Virginia for about 15 years. After finishing my Master's in Social Work, I came to work at Miriam's House as the Clinical Director. I really had the opportunity to be on the front lines working with homeless individuals. Two years after that, I was offered the Executive Director job, which I was really honored to accept. Hugh: Tell us about why you accepted it. Sarah: When you are working in an organization with such an incredible impact, the leadership really matters. When there was a change in leadership and an opportunity to become that leader, I thought it was a really great opportunity to continue the good work of Miriam's House, but also to grow and expand that work. I was really happy to be able to have that opportunity. Hugh: Our audience for this podcast and this video is typically people like you, people sitting in the chair of leading an organization. It might be a ministry. It might be a community-based charity, a membership-based charity, a cause-based charity. They are all kinds of different operations. The anchor to it is leaders make things happen. I am going to ask you a couple of questions. You have a background in social work and you are doing leadership. Those are different skillsets. Before you do the question, talk about the impact. You mentioned the impact on the homeless. Where was this organization when you started? Where is it now? You gave some statistics last week in your presentation that were really important. Sarah: Miriam's House, when I first came here, we operated a transitional housing program. For 20 years, we had a program on site that provided housing for 11 households at a time. The great thing about homeless response nationally is that the concept of programs responding to homelessness have expanded beyond facilities, beyond four walls of a facility, and really into the community. By looking at different models of intervention, we have been able to grow astronomically. Back in 2008, pre-recession, we served 33 individuals. This year, we are slated to serve over 300. That is a 900% increase. That meant we had to think outside the box and think about new ways and accept best practices that were happening in other communities, even though they had not occurred here in Lynchburg. Hugh: You spoke of different levels of service. What do those look like? What is the impact? You also spoke about how people don't return to homelessness. Talk about the impact and the different levels, will you? Sarah: Yeah. I think back in the ‘90s and early 2000s, the homeless response provided through Miriam's House and many organizations was a one-size-fits-all approach. Every person or household that became homeless was given the same level of support and resources. What we have realized is that that is really unnecessary. Everyone's story is different. Their circumstances are different. Instead of doing a one-size-fits-all approach, we triage our resources. We have intensive services that do occur on-site here to minimal or soft-touch resources, where someone just needs assistance with connecting with a landlord that has reasonable rents and being that liaison between that homeless household and that landlord to get them back into housing. It is the gamut of homeless response that we can do: everything from providing long-term housing with long-term case management to a short-term intervention. Hugh: The impact of the work. You said many of the statistics. 96% and 100%. I was really paying attention. Russell, I hope you are impressed. People that are placed and people that don't return to homeless situations. Sarah: Yeah, that's great. So last year, 96% of the households we served moved out of homelessness and into safe, affordable housing in the community. That's great. That's our ultimate measure of success. We want to end people's homeless episode in a way that you do that is to get them back into housing. We are concerned about long-term success. We don't want folks to return to homelessness a year or two years after housing. We also track that data. Last year, we had 100% success in no household recidivating over a span of two years' prior. That was really exciting because it means what we are doing is successful in the short-term of ending someone's homelessness and in the long-term in that they are not returning to homelessness. That is really exciting. Hugh: There is a process piece of finding a house and getting into it. There is an emotional piece that helps people have an attitude of self-sufficiency. How do you work with people in that realm, helping them learn what they need to learn to be able to stay where they are? Sarah: Our approach is really about empowerment. Rather than having punitive services where we are having our case managers tell people what it is they need to do, we really meet with them to identify what it is they want to accomplish or how perhaps their homeless episode was impacted by something previous that we can mitigate by an intervention. For example, if someone was homeless because they had untreated depression and were unable to go to work because of that depression, which then led to them losing their apartment and having to go to a homeless shelter, we can work with that individual to identify that, get them into treatment, see a therapist or get on medication so that homeless episode can be prevented in the future. Working with each household to identify what it is that you need to be stably housed and not return to homelessness. We have flexible resources. We have a once-a-month after-care support group that meets where households can come back and receive peer support about anything from tenant rights and responsibilities to a resource in the community, back-to-school supplies or something like that. That is a great resource to help people stay connected. We also offer ongoing case management. In their home at the beginning, as soon as they first move into housing, because that is a fragile time, so working with them in the home to make sure they have what they need, furniture and clothing, that they understand their new community, that they have the bus routes. Long-term, that might be a phone call here and there, touching base and seeing how they are doing. Tailoring that response to allow households to recognize they are not alone, there is a resource out there, we really want them to be successful in the long term. That success is outlined by them and their own goals. We are here to support them in that. Hugh: People can find you at MiriamsHouseProgram.org. Give us some of the statistics. Your cost per client served has gone down dramatically over the years. Your successful rate of people who have stayed in a home. Give us some of those numbers. Those are incredible. The impact you are having on people's lives. Sarah: Pre-recession, back in 2008, we were serving a homeless person at a cost of about $16,000 per person. Now, that is almost down to $2,000. That is really because we tailor the response appropriately. Certainly more expensive responses, longer-term supports are there for those who have had high barriers to housing, who have long episodes of homelessness. For those who really need a soft touch, that's what we provide, which means we have more funds available to serve more households. Our growth, and the fact that we expanded so significantly, is not because our budget has increased tremendously; it's because we are being a lot smarter with our resources that we have, recognizing that not every household needs an intensive resource. Hugh: Love it. Russ is going to have some good questions. He is taking this in. I want to move us. We have established how successful Miriam's House in the work that you are doing in the city in Virginia that has the highest poverty rate in the whole commonwealth. 24.5% in Lynchburg. The work you are doing is one of many charities that is reaching out to help people regain power in their lives and help them have a better future. I was so impressed with your report, how you gave it and the work you are doing. You just do it. You don't toot your horn or something. You just do it. I was quite impressed. You have a degree in social work. Sarah: That's right. Hugh: And you're leading an organization. Those are two different skillsets. When you first came to work, you were the social worker, I'm guessing. Now, that is still a skillset you have; however, putting on the leader mantle is a different skillset. Talk about that journey. How did you equip yourself for this leadership position that you're in? Sarah: The great thing about social work as a discipline is that there is an understanding of a micro track, which is clinical in nature and talking more directly working with service individuals, but there is a macro track. Many individuals really think that social work is more about micro, one-on-one individual track. But actually there is this great macro track that talks about and educates on organizational change and system change and advocacy and capacity-building for different systems or models of care and community wealth-building or changing. The great thing about social work is that both of those aspects are part of the education. I had some great experience or some education in that macro piece, which is about making significant impacts. Even things such as data, which has become more important in the social work realm and social services organizations and human services organizations, to measure outcomes. Back in the day, it was sort of, I am going to do this intervention because it feels right to me. I like it. It seems like a good approach. And now, that's flipped to what does the data show? Is this effective? Is this working? What are your actual outcomes? That has been appealing to me in that I was able to work individually with people and see an individual outcome. Someone who was no longer sleeping on the street, was able to have an apartment, was able to get a job. That's really cool. In a leadership position, I am able to see how that translates into a big picture. I can see we have a 63% reduction in family homelessness in our community over the course of a year. That's incredible. Even though that results in individual families who I may no longer know, I know that that makes a difference. Going from a direct service position to more of a leadership position, I am able to bring those personal experiences into leadership to know that the work we do to improve big-picture design and implementation means that more and more families and more homeless households are being impacted. I still have those images of those individuals and families in my head even though I am no longer working directly with them in their home or in a shelter. Hugh: That's an effective model. You know how it works because you worked there. Supervising that and empowering that, you have first-hand knowledge of that space. That's good. What were your challenges in coming up to speed and letting go of doing and empowering others to do? What were your challenges in that? Sarah: I think there is the piece of having to let go of some of that first-hand experience or interaction with clients. There is a part of having to trust the people who are now in those positions to continue that great work. That involves not only are we an organization dedicated to empowering our clients, but we also want to be dedicated to empowering our employees. A lot of that means I trust them to do the work they have set out to do. Supporting them, training them, but ultimately believing they are going to continue that mission of ending homelessness in the framework we have created at Miriam's House, which is one of empowerment and support for our clients. Hugh: That's awesome. I am going to shut up for a minute and let my co-host- He has been over here thinking of questions for you. He comes from a position of having been inside of a nonprofit doing funds development, and now he supports nonprofit leaders all over the place, like I do. Russell, do you have some questions for our guest today? Russell: I'd like to welcome you and thank you for coming in and sharing your experience with us. It's very critical to give people in a stable place because then you can start to solve the other problems they have. The formula that you're working by is perfect for what needs to be done. Homelessness is a tough issue. I have found myself in a coalition. I am in several coalitions that focus on homelessness here. Our biggest challenge is affordable housing. To get back to the work you are doing, having been on the ground, effective leaders or transformational leaders, as Hugh defines them, are people who know all of their audiences, and that includes the people they serve. Transformational leaders build good leaders around them. When everybody understands how what they do fits into the big picture, and they see those results, they get a broader understanding of what they are doing, and it works better. Just looking at the work you do and how you approach serving people and the people that you partner with, the collaboration piece is something you didn't address that I love about what you're doing. It's an all-hands-on-deck kind of thing when you are dealing with something like homelessness. It's not the dirty old guy in a raincoat you're talking about. We're talking about families here. It's very important to do that. I know that homelessness, as it is measured all over the place, greatly understates what is there. Another thing about what you're doing is that you are doing it right. You're probably not serving as many people. Nonprofit leaders by and large do not have enough money and do not serve enough people for where they want to see people go in the community, in the direction they wanted to go in. But it is the effectiveness and efficiency with which you serve the people that you have. There are real stories behind the numbers that jump out so that people see that impact. That is remarkable. I commend you for that. It's great. Being able to make that shift form social worker to leader of the organization is difficult because a lot of people that are in that field have a lot of difficulty talking about the value they bring. It is about value. You're working in partnerships to transition people from where they are. In thinking about this, when you were asked to be the leader of this organization, what are the things you were doing- I know you probably did this as they interviewed you. What were the things that you were doing that they thought made you right to take leadership of the organization? Sarah: Taking the mission of the organization, which is of course to end homelessness, and expanding it beyond what the organization had always done. Leading the programs and making recommendations for new ways to still fulfill that mission of ending homelessness, but not being so tied to a certain program type in order to do that, I think the board recognized that, especially after the recession, when nonprofits either had the same resources or fewer resources, they realized that was something they wanted to embrace, which was exciting to me. Nobody wants to be the leader of an organization that is stagnant and stays the same and is not interested in adapting or growing. That was mutually exciting for the board and myself to recognize that we wanted to take Miriam's House in a different and better way, but still further that mission of ending homelessness and not leaving that behind. Russell: It's keeping your eye on the prize. That involves having what I call some tough conversations in the boardroom. Think of a time when you had a really tough conversation in the boardroom that really kicked you up to a new level. Are there some points where you had to have some tough conversations about a new approach or a specific program that was difficult, but once you had that conversation and navigated that, it took you to another level? Sarah: Back in the ‘90s, when Miriam's House was formed, we served homeless families, but we defined those families as single moms with children. What we have done over the last several years is I have had to talk with the board about changing that family definition to include any household with children under the age of 18, whether that's a grandma raising a grandchild, a single dad raising his two children, or two moms with their children. I think that was tough. A lot of individuals were really tied to the fact that Miriam's House supported single moms that were homeless. Having to educate them that families sometimes look different. As an organization, we don't want any child to be homeless, regardless of their family composition. Changing that definition of family to include any household with children was a big step for our board and for our organization because now, it allows us to serve every homeless family in our community as opposed to being narrow in our definition. Russell: One thing I have discovered in joining these coalitions here in Colorado in the Denver metro area is there is a segment of the population that have been coined as “housing unstable.” These are people who are working full-time, not necessarily eligible for services. Some may be on the verge or a paycheck away from homelessness. Others are couch surfing. They are working full-time or a combination of jobs to constitute full-time. They still don't have enough resources to provide themselves with stable housing. We also have a segment of kids who are in the high schools who are homeless. They couch surf and come to school. Are you finding you have those populations in Lynchburg? If there are a significant number of them, what are the steps you have taken at Miriam's House to help them? Sarah: As a community, we have noticed a growing trend of youth homelessness. That is what you mentioned. That is the unaccompanied, 18-24, many of them have aged out of foster care or an institution setting, and don't have that family support to make that next step into adulthood. Next month, we are going to be expanding one of our programs, Community First, which is a rapid re-housing program for families, and we are also going to be serving unaccompanied youth with that program. That is what happened. We noticed that trend. There is a growing population. There is not an organization in Lynchburg that targets homeless youth, and so we are going to become that, which I think is really exciting. It's a vulnerable population with some different challenges than the homeless families we are serving, but certainly real needs. We are excited to be serving that population in a few days. Russell: That's wonderful that you came up with the resources and vision to do that. We are experiencing a lot of trouble. Our real estate market in the Denver metro area and throughout Colorado have hopped rent prices very high. We just had our very last homeless shelter that was in Jefferson County close down two weeks ago. There are no homeless shelters in Jefferson County, which has about 655,000 people. The shelter model is what we leaned on before, but it doesn't really lend itself to long-term solutions. It's basic Maslow. When people are worried about how to keep dry and eat, they can't be concerned with higher pursuits. What is your feeling about affordable housing in Lynchburg? How are you incorporating that into your approach? Do you think the shelter model is dead? Sarah: That is two different things. What you are mentioning is the housing-first model. It stemmed in the last 10 years from the recession and recognizing we don't have enough shelters or facilities to address homelessness. Those facilities often had poor outcomes. There was a lot of revolving door and people not necessarily ending their homelessness through going to a shelter, but prolonging it. There is a place for a brief short-term shelter, a crisis-oriented shelter that is short-term, I've lost my house and I need to go somewhere for a couple days. What we do here in Lynchburg and what many communities around the country are doing is then quickly working with that household to find housing, whether that's affordable housing in the community, subsidized housing, or assistance through rapid re-housing. There certainly is a place for shelter, but I don't think that place is a 30/60/90-day stay without an intervention. What our community does is we have set benchmarks. After two days of staying in a homeless shelter, a case manager needs to be meeting with that household, working on a housing plan, figuring out if they are going to need additional resources or do they just need support to get back into housing? That goes into your next point about affordable housing. If we want to get people out of shelter quickly, the way to do that is by having an affordable housing stock. Many of these individuals are still going to be poor. They either are already working and working a low-wage job, or we are helping them get employment, but that employment is probably not going to be the median income for our community or for any community. Affordable housing continues to be a problem for our community and many others, not just the quantity of affordable housing, but the quality, too. One of the biggest issues for our community is the condensed areas of affordable housing. When you have that only located in low-income neighborhoods, it does not provide opportunities for households to get out of poverty and to better themselves. As a community, I am part of a housing collaborative working to increase affordable housing, not just the quantity, but also the location of that housing, recognizing that having affordable housing in mixed-income neighborhoods will provide much more opportunity for those formerly homeless households than if they were going right from a shelter back into a poor neighborhood. Russell: There are all sorts of auxiliary issues like access to transportation. Of course, our transit district is at best a light rail. I am a light rail rider, but it's not for my livelihood. It's for my convenience. The people in the poorer neighborhoods do not have good access to that light rail. When you talk about condensing people in an affordable project, there has been a number of them built in various areas of the city where people who came in. We had men and women from the Second Chance Center, who are people who experienced incarceration, trying to recreate their lives. They secured funds to build something. There is a big community meeting, not in my neighborhood. One of the things that Close to Home is doing is reaching out to people to talk about homelessness and what it looks like because there is the old guy with the bottle of wine and the paper bag type of image who is just a wino, man under the bridge. That is the image people have about homelessness. A lot of homeless people look like you and I. You would never know in a thousand years that they are homeless. Trying to talk with people about that. Talk about some of the ways you folks have tried to explain what homelessness is and educate the community in order to get more support for what you're doing. Sarah: I think a lot of that is creating that empathy. It's allowing individuals who don't interact with people experiencing homelessness to understand some stories or some faces. We did a photograph exhibit several years ago, “Faces of Homelessness.” It was very simple. It was showing the faces of the men, women, and children in our community experiencing homelessness. They were not the faces that community members expected. You're right. It's not the grizzly old man who has been on the streets for 30 years. Certainly, there are a handful of individuals like that, but by and large, it's the five-year-old kid whose mom was a victim of domestic violence, and they had to flee their home. Or it was the 50-year-old woman who has worked a low-wage job her entire life and was laid off because the company moved, so she became homeless. Creating that empathy through photos and stories is an important piece of what we do. We have a large community luncheon every year with almost 500 attendees, and having a client speaker at that is always the most popular part of the event, better than the raffles. Being able to see someone face-to-face who has experienced homelessness, to realize they are just like you or I, but they had a crisis occur, whether that crisis was a house fire or domestic violence or the loss of a job, that crisis hit, they did not have the resources to sustain that, and they became homeless. Recognizing that it's not always as easy as saying it's someone's fault, that they drank too much, or they were too lazy to go to work, understanding that's not what causes homelessness. Crises can occur to any household. If the household does not have the resources to weather that storm, they will become homeless. Having those different events and opportunities to share that story really creates that empathy. The incredible thing is that the Lynchburg community is so supportive of the work we do. Our expansion and being able to add new populations and being able to continue our work is because they have that empathy and they understand that this is their community. They do not want people sleeping outdoors or on park benches. That is inhumane. Hugh: I am going to weigh in because you mentioned the stereotypical old guy. Russell: Hmm, wonder where that comes from. Hugh: I don't know where that comes from. Sarah, this is remarkable. I am just realizing I don't see a whole lot of people on park benches walking the streets in Lynchburg. Some cities, it's just very much in your face. You mentioned there were nine programs that did similar work. Talk about collaborations. How do you work in conjunction with any kind of disciplines, any agencies in working with this demographic? Sarah: We have a great community collaboration among homeless response providers, not only jus those direct service providers, our homeless prevention, our homeless diversion, shelters, DV shelters, organizations like us that do those next step services. We have those at the table. We also have our auxiliary services: our social services, our mental health providers, our recovery providers, probation and parole, police offers, our school systems. We recognize we need everyone at the table informing policy, informing decisions. The great thing is that having all those different voices allows us to make sure there are no gaps in services, that we are serving every population. We have providers that are working specifically with veterans experiencing homelessness. We target families. Now we are going to be the youth provider. We have other organizations who work with individuals who are chronically homeless. Recognizing that not one organization needs to do it all. Instead, we need to build upon which organization is really great at this work, and let's support them in that instead of duplicating or trying to compete. That is what we do as a homeless response system. We recognize what the gaps are, what we are doing really well, and also what do we no longer need. Maybe we no longer need this many shelter beds because we are doing a really good job at diverting or preventing people from becoming homeless. Let's instead dedicate more resources to that so that way we can do a better job of preventing homelessness rather than just treating it. Those conversations can really happen when you have everyone at the table, so that has been really neat. Hugh: Preventing. Go ahead, Russell. Russell: Prevention work more than a pound a cure. Next time you're out, Hugh, we can do a tour. I can show you where a lot of homeless people are. They are starting to appear in the burbs, away from Denver. They're everywhere. Those conversations or those collaborations are magic because everybody works in their wheelhouse. But there is always more. In looking at the measures that you're thinking about as far as prevention, if there was one thing that as a group these agencies could do that would be the most important thing for them to do as far as prevention, what would that one action be that you would have them take? Sarah: Create more affordable housing. We talked about it earlier. That's the piece. Not only in preventing homelessness at the front end, but also in ending homelessness when someone becomes homeless. By and large, no one wants to become homeless. People are becoming homeless because they don't have affordable housing. If somebody is already paying more than 50% of their income toward rent and they lose that job, there is no way they have a savings account to pay that next month's rent when they were already paying more than their means. Having more affordable housing really would be the key in preventing many incidences of homelessness. Russell: That sounds either like like-mindedness or group psychosis. That's what a lot of people are thinking in these parts. We have a real challenge with affordable housing because there is development going on everywhere. There is people making tons of money. There are moves being made by various city governments to clear away some areas to do some rezoning to allow for mixed-use commercial and affordable housing with land prices and housing prices going up. It's a real challenge for us here. I hope it's not as big there. The bigger the challenge, the bigger the mission. Your people are willing to cooperate. I just found out about agencies I didn't even know about. There is a spirit and collaboration a lot of people are looking at because this is huge. There are people from all sides of town that are starting to look at this and say, “Ooh, we are in over our heads.” There is a lot more willingness to collaborate. I guess that is what Henry Kissinger meant when he said “The absence of alternatives clears the mind marvelously.” Sarah: Yep, sure. Hugh: Sarah, going forward, I'm sure as a leader, you have a vision for what this organization should look like in five years. Have you developed that in conjunction or have a process to think about that with your board? Sarah: Yeah. We do some great strategic thinking every few years. Three years with our board, to lay that vision, to say where we have come, where are we going. That has happened. Our growth has not just happened by accident. It has been strategic. What do we do really well? First, that was family homelessness. We improved that program until now we can serve every family experiencing homelessness. Then it was recognizing what was next. There is this youth homeless population that is not being served, so now we are going to grow that program. I think that will really continue. It is recognizing the dynamic changes of homelessness and what it is we can do to make a difference. If in five years from now, all of a sudden we see a spike in a different population experiencing homelessness, then we will address that population. We are remaining true to our mission of ending homelessness, but recognizing that might look different as circumstances change, as our community shifts or changes, or different populations become homeless. Or there is new interventions. The biggest thing for me is to remain flexible. Recognizing that in all that we do, we need to be working to end homelessness. That will look different, and we will be serving different people five years form now than we are serving right now. Hugh: As a side note, SynerVision gives away ten visioning or board evaluation sessions a year for local nonprofits. We can extend that to Denver if you wanted to, Russ. We meet with boards. It's helpful to have somebody who is not inside to help boards think about what possibilities there are. You come backwards and think about how to get there. If you have a vision for the future, what are the biggest challenges in going forward with all of the things going on in our world today? What is the biggest challenges that Miriam's House faces to achieve those goals? Sarah: There is difficulty in predicting things like the availability of federal and state funding for homeless response is a concern. Of course, a portion of our funding is through federal homeless response grants and state homeless response grants. That is for many of our partners across the country. The instability of that funding is a concern. Continued funding for things like subsidized housing and affordable housing development. That will be huge in the next several years, seeing the direction of the Department of Housing and Urban Development in creating more affordable housing in communities. Those big policy decisions are difficult to predict. They shape how communities address homelessness. Hugh: In your seat of leader, how do you continue to work on yourself, your skills, your abilities to grow this organization? Sarah: I think taking advantage of others in similar roles across the state and the country in forming those connections and those collaborations. Even just having open conversations about challenges they are experiencing, things they had to overcome. I am certainly not one to recreate the wheel. When we have added a new program or serve a new population, I have reached out to others who are doing good work and have asked for help, input, and advice. That has served me well and allows me to not to have to recreate the wheel or learn from mistakes, but rather to really hone in on what has worked for others. I think that has been and will continue to be helpful tool. Hugh: We are coming to the last minutes of our conversation. We try not to go over an hour even though we get intrigued by the good work of the people we interview. I think many people are going to find this inspiring, hearing your story. Some people learn by tactical, how to do this, how to do that. Other people learn from stories. Some people learn from both. This has been a good sharing time to inspire people. I want to ask a question, and then I will do my sponsor promotion, and then come back to you for a final thought as we close out the interview about what would you share with other people that you think they ought to know about leadership and building an organization. What is a challenge, a tip, or a charge for people who are listening to this podcast? You talk about the groups that you get together with, like the veterans, the groups that have something in common. Do you also work with groups that aren't doing the same thing? Do you work with Food for Families or some of those other charities that work with these people in different ways? If so, how do you build these collaborations? Sarah: Yeah. Miriam's House is not only a direct service provider, but we are also the lead agency for homeless response in central Virginia. Part of that role is building those connections and building those collaborations and recognizing that we need everyone at the table, not just the homeless response providers, but those other organizations and entities. That is people like landlords who may have housing that we can advocate to become more affordable, or we can advocate for those landlords to offer housing to individuals with barriers, like eviction. That collaboration is one on one with meaningful individuals and entities and encouraging them to become a part of the solution to homelessness. It's also a larger thing. When there is a recognition of good work being done, people want to join that. Over the last several years, the homeless response system, of which Miriam's House is a part of, has received some great recognition that we are making some good progress, we have done some good work, and so people, organizations, businesses want to be a part of that. Hugh: It takes good leadership. Because of your demeanor and your willingness to talk and share, you attract similar people to you who would want to do that kind of work. You're not in this protective secret operation. You're doing something that is going to attract like-minded people. You can't say that for every segment of charities in any community, not even Lynchburg. There are some segments that aren't collaborating. We are headed toward opening a center at the University of Lynchburg. SynerVision is a partner in that project, along with Central Virginia something for Excellence and Nonprofit. We are going to build a center. It's partly helping equip leaders with skills for board and funding, but also a place to come and broaden the scope of collaborations. I'm thinking you ought to be in that conversation to help us think about how that would work because there are a lot of charities that don't have this level of synergy that we want to help bring together, and also have a listing for everybody of who does what. There is not a global listing resource that is up to date so any agency knows how to refer to people. Just a heads up, we'd love to have you in that conversation sometime soon. Sarah: Great. I would love to be part of that. *Sponsor message about Wordsprint* Hugh: You spoke about grants, Sarah, but I'm sure donors are a significant part of your funding as well and could be even more. Sarah: That's true. I think that's one thing that a lot of organizations have increased their efforts to because we don't have a lot of control over state and federal grants, but we can certainly build relationships with our community donors. Hugh: This has been very helpful and informative. I appreciate your time today. As we leave this session, what thought or challenge would you like to share with other leaders out there who haven't quite gotten to the place that you have? Or who have gotten to a good place and want to make sure they stay current with their skills. Sarah: Staying connected to the history of an organization and staying connected to the mission and the beauty that happened before, but also not being so tied to that history that there is an unwillingness to change and to grow. What has been great about my experience at Miriam's House is that ability to honor the past while also really looking forward to the future and honoring that past by changing for the future. Hugh: Russell, do you want to give us a wrap as we are leaving here? Russell: Thank you very much for taking the time to talk with us here about an important matter. It's really about partnerships. I think the private sector becomes a bigger part of that as we go along because when you talk about land and real estate, you're talking about real money and profit. It's important to get those people who resonate with your message on board to understand that this is impacting people they may know. Thank you for the brilliant work you're doing. I'd love to talk to you again about a book I'm working on, profiling high-performance nonprofits because I think you'd fit there. I thank all of our friends everywhere for watching and listening. Sandy will want you to submit something to our magazine, and we'd love an article on this.  Not many people know much about homelessness, so it's important they get a chance to learn more about that. Thank you to Sandy who always keeps us on track. We love it. Sandy is definitely looking forward to having an article. She will get that information to you on how to submit and what we look for. I look forward to seeing you soon. As always, you know Hugh and I have a lot of fun. This is the fun part of the job: meeting people like you and finding out what stuff you're doing. It helps us recharge our batteries. We are in the transformation business. It's about people. It's about transforming lives. There is a bigger picture here. We need a lot of enlightened leaders like you to bring it to life for other people and to help us move on and create that legacy so no one is left behind. Hugh: Thank you, Russell. Russell: Not bad for a bald guy. Hugh: Not bad. Thank you, Russell. Thank you, Sarah. Sarah: Thank you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Sarah Lipman CTO, Power2B Date: August 15, 2011 [musical introduction] Lucy Sanders: Hi this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of NCWHIT or the National Center for Women and Information Technology. Were working hard to make sure that more girls and women are pursuing computing education paths and careers. This interview series is extremely important to us. Were interviewing fabulous entrepreneurs, women who have started technology companies and asking their advice about entrepreneurship. Were very excited about this series. Today were going to interview a technical visionary, I'm very excited about this. With me is Larry Nelson w3w3. Hi Larry! Larry Nelson: Hi. I'm really happy to be here. I always like visionaries especially in this area. Anything we can do as it relates to business, technology and women getting into technology really turns me on. Lucy: Well listeners will be able to find our interviews at ncwit.org as well as w3w3.com. The technical visionary that we are interviewing today is really big into 3D Technology and the human interactive interface. Her name is Sarah Lipman and she's the cofounder and CTO of Power to Be. These interfaces I'm sure our viewers know are so important and there really such leading edge technology happening there. I've brought along the Power to Be mission statement. This is awesome I think we should adopt this as our mission statement. "Power to be is a creative workshop dedicated to generating radical innovations in human experience at every level of daily living." Larry: I love it! Lucy: I know that Sarah will have a lot more to tell us. Part of what they've done is a innovative patent around 3D touch-screen technology. Their beginning to imagine certain interfaces for these devices where they can actually look at natural body language, and present things based on Larry sitting up straight. [laughing] Just based on how you are behaving. Sarah welcome were very happy to have you here! Sarah Lipman: [over the phone] Thank you. I'm really excited to be with you. Lucy: What's going on at Power to Be, give us a sense about that? What are you up to? Sarah: Power to Be is unbelievable. It's a technology that replaces the traditional touch-screen. It's a fraction of the price. It provides coordinates not only in the x y plane, meaning when you touch the screen, even when your not quiet touching the screen. So it can track you before you even touch the screen. An easy way to envision the difference is if I were sitting across the table from you and you saw me reach for a salt shaker you might push it towards me, because you could see me coming. You don't need me to touch the salt shaker to know that's what I'm aiming for. If your smartphone or your tablet or your laptop or your TV could see you coming, then it can start bringing you what you wanted even before you start touching it. Given the amount of data, number of applications, the amount of content that were holding on even very small devices is a very profound change and how we can interact with our content. Lucy: That is really interesting. Before I get into the first question about how you got into technology, tell us a little about other technologies that you see that are cool. As a technologist it's a especially interesting question to ask you. Sarah: Certainly the whole issue of embedding sensors into all kinds of devices and products and objects. So that they can be more aware of us and responsive to us. That device to device communication, so it can be passed along, I think we haven't even began to scratch the surface of what we could create. Now I'm not talking about sentient computing or anything like that. Just devices that can be intelligent. They can see what your doing and understand where your going. Lucy: Wow, that's amazing. Is that the same kind of technology that you might start to see in buildings and so forth? Sarah: I think it's just going to be everywhere. In buildings, it's going to be in coke cans, it's going to be in laptops and cell phones and makeup and refrigerators. It's going to be everywhere! Because there's no reason why with all the data we give off in terms of body language, in terms of intention, in terms of history. There's no reason to still be using the old algorithms of algorithm principles for predicting peoples behavior. You don't need to predict it based on statistic's, predict it based on what the persons doing now. You'll have a lot more accuracy and it'll be much more fluid. That kind of magical feeling when something just works right. Lucy: For you! Larry: Yeah I Love it! Lucy: I love it! OK, so one more technology question then will get into the interview. Tell me about makeup? Sarah: [laughing] That was just a generic example. I certainly would not mind my makeup reordering it's self when it got low. Lucy: Me too! Sarah: [laughing] I have traveled all over the world, like alot. There was a long period of time were I traveled every four weeks or every six weeks. I used to pick up makeup foundation in different countries and it never matched. In the middle east it had this present undertone and in japan it would have this white undertone. I went crazy, it's like stupid things that's what the Internet's for! No I could never catch up with what I needed. [laughing] Lucy: [Chuckling] That's amazing Larry: I bet it'll even cover up spots that you've miss. Sarah: [laughing] Larry! Lucy: That would be good too! Sarah, why don't you tell our listeners a bit about how you first got into technology? Sarah: I was so excited by this question! It made me really think "What's my first memory of technology?" It's a Rotary phone. The rotary dialed, this old lady came in, installed it, put our number inside and I was so fascinated I must have been three years old. I spent hours playing with the rotary dial, trying to figure out how it work, how it dialed. Why when you dialed the two it didn't take very long, when you dialed the nine it took forever to get it back to being able to do that. That whole product, that whole interface is just so fascinating to me! Then in first grade, I was having these conversations with friends about why these new touchpad's had a pound key and a asterisk, speculating about what they may be for. One friend said, "In the future it'll let you call somebody back if the numbers busy when you dial!" That was just so far out it was hard to believe. Then calculators keypad goes the opposite way of a phone keypad. I'm just so excited that you asked this question, it's the first time I've realized I've gone full circle! I was fascinated by phone interface when I was three years old, I'm still fascinated by it now. I'm totally memorized, I guess I never really changed. Lucy: Who knew the rotary phone would have such a impact? Larry: That's a fact! And then remember... Sarah: [laughing]: Yes! Who remembers rotary phones? Lucy: Oh I do! My background is at AT&T, I used to program software. I don't even want to go into that! Sarah: My husband used to have an auto-dial made of toothpicks. Larry: Woah! Sarah: Hold it under a little clicker and it would go "tick tick tick tick!" Auto-dial! Phone interfaces are fantastic. I have a whole collection of mobile interfaces, old phones like Nokia! Around the turn of the century they had these fabulous interfaces that looked funny with the keys all over the place, styluses you name it! I've got some funny example of it. To me it's both entertaining, educational and indicative of an industry of that's still trying to figure out exactly what the best interface is, test function. Larry: Now what is it about entrepreneurship that makes you tick? In fact why did you become an entrepreneur? Sarah: I think I didn't have a choice. [laughing] I kind of see an entrepreneur as someone who see's where there is a problem or a gap or a hole, understands what it really needs to be like, and really wants to make it be that way. That kind of excitement, that vision of I'm going to complete the world, I'm going to fix the world. That's me! You've got to be excited enough to jump in, get involved, take risk, push ahead and not be too worried about obstacles because you know that there is an end result and you know what it is and it is totally worth it. I'm an entrepreneur that way. In terms of I see a vision, I see what somebody or a something that could really be that has this amazing potential and I just want to make sure that it really happens. Larry: That's great. Lucy: Well, in along the way, Sarah, who or what influenced you or supported you as you went down this entrepreneurial career path. Sarah: Definitely my husband because I would not be an official entrepreneur if it was not for his business and market vision really has been the force behind that whole side of let's turn this turn into a business. And we have had a couple of just amazing advisors and mentors who believed in us. They reached out to us even before we asked them and helped us turn what was a vision and had a belief and faith in what we were doing into professional skills required and know how and who to talk to and how to do it. Notably I would say Ken Dweeble whose is now a CEO at Coria who was previously CEO at Power to Be and even before that was a personal mentor, Hansel Baker whose is now a Techsports product development. Both of them just had profound impact on us Larry: Well with all the different things that you have been through and it's great that you have had powerful people behind you and working with you but what is the toughest thing that you ever had to do in your career? Sarah: Fire an entire lab of wonderful people, wonderful employees when we had a investment poll during the stock market crash in 2008. It was horrible to do it. Everyone understood why, there was no money for salaries for them but in that economic environment we knew it would be hard for them to find their next job, for at least a while. It was just awful. Lucy: I know, I can feel it in your voice. Sarah: Yes, it was horrible. Lucy: Well, it is horrible I think that those things happen. Sarah: Thank God they all are well employed now and are doing great but... Lucy: I'm sure they have top skills. Sarah: They are a great team. Lucy: Absolutely. Well, if you were sitting here right now with a young person and giving them advise about entrepreneurship, what would you say to them? Sarah: First of all I would say if you are person who likes to get things done and likes to make things happen, then starting your own company is your dream job because you can just do it and make it happen. That said, a lot of people are very vague about their ideas. They kind of sort of have some idea and they don't have that clarity, vision or focus. And that is what you need to cultivate. That is what all the business planning is about. You got to push your self. Clarify your vision, what are you trying to achieve, what is the objective, what is going to look like and you got to make it that you can share it with other people. So I would say pitch and present as often as you can to anyone who would listen to you. Presentations, articles, drawings, whatever, be on panels and then listen listen listen to the feedback that you are going to get because you have got to keep learning every minute and that combination of pitching and pulling out and then listening and pulling in, that's how you are going to make it happen. Larry: You know, it's great that your husband was one of that power force behind you becoming an entrepreneur, what are the personal characteristics that has given you the advantage of becoming an entrepreneur. Sarah: [laughter] First of all, I really think that being a mother gives you important experience. What it means to be completely committed to a project, to be willing to put in a 22 hour a day. Larry: [laughter] Sarah: ...Without looking at a paycheck or worrying about your overtime. So I am a serial mom-entrepreneur. I have a large family but I am like that with everything. You know there is a kind of save the world mode in me is a lot stronger than what is in it for me mode.I do think that helps me put a 100 percent to my work even though success with the start up is down the line thing, it's not immediate so I guess what I'm really saying is that you have to love what you are doing. You have to love doing it now and not just be looking out for the money that the success might bring you down the line. So startups are an uncertain universe but if you love what you are doing now then it will be satisfying. Larry: Boy that's a fact. Being a father of five I can relate to what you have said. Lucy: And picking up on your answer about how being a parent really teaches you important business lessons for sure, what do you do, how do you manage to bring in the balance in your personal and professional lives? Sarah: You assume I manage. I don't think I manage well enough. Lucy: Well you must be doing something right. Sarah: But I do, I have found this kind of like using a lot of the business skills has been helpful at home as well. It was vice versa but it also works the other way. So kind of [inaudible] to say what do I need to achieve right now, what do I need to achieve in the next two hours of really being with my family so trying to be very focused in that. What is the number one thing I'm trying to do and that helps me not to look at my computer, not check the black berry. Really listen to my kids, to my family, talk to them, be there with them, I find that those skills are kind of across the board and it has been helpful. Lucy: I think that is an incredibly important advise. It really is around do the next important thing well. Sarah: Yes. 100 percent. I know everyone loves to talk about multi tasking, I'm not a believer in it... Lucy: I'm not either. Sarah: I was in a meeting with Nokia several years ago, and one of the guys said here we call it continues partial attention. [laughter] Lucy: That's great. Sarah: Yes, exactly. Continuous partial attention is not satisfying for your children, your babies or your husband or your project or your presentation when you are not 100 percent in the moment, everyone knows it and they feel neglected and you can't run a business that way so yes I believe in multi tasking more as task switching. You got to be really good at rapid task switching but not all at one time. Lucy: Yeah that's a fact. Larry: Exactly. Sarah, you have been through a great deal, you have a growing company. What's next for you? S arah: Oh gosh. I'm empowered to be always next, it's so exciting. It's the potential to change the entire mobile industry. I know that I am very privileged to have the opportunity to be part of something that grand and it's not everyone's chance to be part of something that huge. I also founded Keyshore which is a professional network for religious women in Israel. It is a big success. I just left Israel and I put the project into wonderful good hands. Keyshore is in need of workshops and conferences. It has become a big player in the national scene and just bringing women. First class business marketing strategy skills for their business. That's what we do and it has been fantastic so I'm a big believer in changing the world one moment at a time. That is the most satisfying thing. It's kind of like multitasking versus task switching. One person at a time, you change a lot of people. I have a folder of 20 or 30 more projects that I want to get launched. I want to make it happen. You know, technology and education. Usually a combination of the two...Wow. I see myself fully booked for the foreseeable future. Lucy: And that is very good for all of us to know because I'm sure it's going to have a wonderful positive impact in the future as well as what you have already done. So thank you very much for talking to us, Sarah, we really appreciate you working on a very very cool technology and we gonna want to keep a close track of it because I'm sure it's going to as you said, really change. So thanks a lot for being with us. I want to remind the listeners where they can hear these pod casts once again, w3w3.com and ncwhit.org. Thank you so much. It was great talking to you. You have such a great philosophy and best of luck with your company. Sarah: Thank you and continue success with NCWHIT. It's such an important initiative. I'm so happy to be a tiny part of it. Lucy: Well thank you very much. Larry: Thank you Sarah. We will have you website, powertobe.net up also. Sarah: Thank you so much. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Sarah LipmanInterview Summary: Imagine sitting at a table and reaching for the salt, and the person next to you pushing it towards you so that it's within your reach. Now imagine a touchscreen technology that, in the same way, anticipates what you're trying to do even before you touch it. This is Power2B. Release Date: August 15, 2011Interview Subject: Sarah LipmanInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 16:43