Podcast appearances and mentions of sarah okay

DoorGrow has been helping property management business owners transform and grow their businesses for over a decade… what's changed? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull explore some of the things DoorGrow has been working on in the last 5 years to innovate the property management industry. You'll Learn [01:24] Why DoorGrow Continues to Innovate [06:94] Helping Property Managers Avoid Common Mistakes [13:23] Changes and Improvements to the DoorGrow Mastermind [21:52] Innovative New Sales Strategies Quotables “A lot of people think, ‘I just need more leads. I just need to turn that on.' And they ignore this hose that has six major leaks in it.” “If you ask them the right questions, people will basically sell themselves.” “It's like when you go to a buffet, you're not going to eat everything at the buffet… You only want to eat the things that you want right now.” “You are the sum of the five property management business owners that you're the most connected to.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Do you have any idea how powerful it is to be connected to a coach? 24 hours a day? Like there is no time in the world that you cannot message us. [00:00:08] Jason: All right. We are Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted and cleaned up hundreds of businesses, helping them add doors, improved pricing, increase profit, simplify operations, and build and replace teams. We are like Bar Rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 businesses and we run the leading property management mastermind for the industry with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry.  [00:00:59] Jason: At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world, and that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.  [00:01:09] Jason: At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners and their businesses. [00:01:13] Jason: We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:24] Jason: Alright, so today, what are we talking about, Sarah?  [00:01:28] Jason: We're talking about what's new.  [00:01:30] Jason: So we've helped a lot of clients in the past, and if we've helped you three, five, maybe 10 years ago, there's been a lot that's changed at DoorGrow because we innovate and make changes pretty quickly, right? [00:01:44] Jason: And we've got systems for innovation in our business. And so, I think this is why we have the most comprehensive program in the industry and why nobody else can keep up with our pace and our level of creating and innovating and adding new stuff. And so a lot of you maybe have listened to this podcast a bit, maybe a while, maybe you're past clients. Maybe you've never worked with DoorGrow, but I'm going to talk about some of the stuff we've implemented since somebody was maybe a client in our older programs, like our seed program, or maybe did some initial marketing stuff with us back in the day. And so we're going to chat a little bit about what's new since then. [00:02:24] Jason: And so if you are a past client, this will be a great episode for you to catch up on what is new at DoorGrow. And if you'd like us to go deeper, I have a 37 minute video I recorded with slides on this subject going into a little bit more detail, but we're going to skim through some of this and help you understand there's a lot of innovation. [00:02:44] Jason: So if you had some connection with DoorGrow in the past, since then, we have become the world leaders at growing and scaling property management companies. And especially in the long term residential space. We've become the world leaders of property management branding. Like I said in the intro, we've rebranded over 300 companies. [00:03:04] Jason: We have launched hundreds of websites, more than we've done rebrands. And so hundreds and hundreds of websites. And we're still the leader in building responsive mobile friendly WordPress sites for property managers, which is the world's leading content management system. And if you're past client, you might be due for a website refresh. [00:03:24] Jason: We have over 70 different designs you can choose from, and they are clean designs, they're set up so that these sites, we call them seed sites, they're optimized for conversions, they're optimized to build trust. And so if it's, if you have an old website from us, you might be due for a refresh and we can certainly help you with that. [00:03:46] Jason: And past clients, we'll give you a discounted rate. So we're really great at doing websites for those that aren't a past client. And so, reach out, we can help you with that. And we include websites for free in some of our programs. You still have to pay like the support costs monthly, but the design piece, which normally is thousands of dollars to get a site built, we cover and take care of that. [00:04:09] Jason: That's included in our mastermind program. Related to that, we've also launched the world's leading mastermind for long-term residential property managers called The DoorGrow Mastermind. So, do you want to talk about this one?  [00:04:22] Sarah: Sure. I guess. Okay. All right. So one of the things that we had launched, what, like two years ago now maybe? [00:04:29] Sarah: Yeah. Is what we call the DoorGrow code. So what we've done is we've just seen over the many years and over Jason talking with thousands of property managers. He's just amassed a whole bunch of data. And after that happens, then you start to kind of see some patterns. So. What we did is we created this whole map that lays out stage by stage and step by step. [00:04:56] Sarah: The various different ,I'm going to call them stages, of a property management business. So all the way from, "I'm brand new, I have no doors yet, not quite sure I really want to get started, but I, you know, I don't actually have any clients yet" to, "well, now I have my first client and then I'm growing up to, you know, 50, a hundred, 200, 300, 400 doors, all the way up to a thousand plus. So we've created this whole roadmap, and then if you're in the DoorGrow Mastermind, we also have created some corresponding belt levels. So we kind of like a martial arts system, we've created different color coded built levels that corresponds to both your door count and your income because both things are important. [00:05:43] Sarah: And what are the things that you need to do at each different stage in order to progress to the next level in your business? Meaning you are making more revenue, you're adding more doors, and hopefully you're stepping back a bit from the things that you're not loving in the business.  [00:06:02] Jason: Yeah, and we call that the DoorGrow code, like we've cracked the code on growth and this is based on talking to thousands of property managers. [00:06:09] Jason: We started to notice a pattern. So if you'd like a copy of the DoorGrow code and see where you're at and stuck, reach out to us. We'd be happy to send you a copy. Just shoot us a DM on any social platform. Say, Hey. Just send us the word code and we'll, we can send you information about the DoorGrow code and that'll help you get some clarity on where you're at. [00:06:28] Jason: So that's been a game changer. We used to have this old program called the Seed Program, where we would kind of clean up their business and get it ready for growth. And it used to be a six month program. Some clients would take a year to do it. We've replaced that with a 90 day Rapid Revamp program, and so our Rapid Revamp program is even faster and this is where usually I use a diagram of a hose and there's like a faucet to turn on the hose. And that faucet Or spigot, it usually says lead generation. A lot of people think, "I just need more leads. I just need to turn that on." And they ignore this hose that has six major leaks in it, and so we've identified six major leaks, and so as part of this Rapid Revamp. [00:07:09] Jason: We spend like three months with clients, usually our newer clients that come on board, we do this first. This is like sharpening the ax before we go try to chop down trees, you know, try to do the work to grow the business, and we're optimizing it for growth and we're shoring up those six major leaks. [00:07:24] Jason: And the big leaks are branding, reviews, website, pricing, trust, and sales, your pitch. So we call it positioning, perception, presence, pricing, purpose, and pitch. And if we can get those things really well dialed in, we find that companies without even changing their lead gen sources, can double the amount of deals that they're getting on right now. [00:07:43] Jason: So if you feel like it's been hard and you can't see why, these are usually six major blind spots. And this is why it's been so hard. If we can get this stuff dialed in, even without changing any of the lead sources, however you're getting business right now, you could potentially double the amount of business you're getting on just by getting these leaks shored up. [00:08:02] Jason: And do you want to talk about pricing?  [00:08:04] Sarah: Okay. Pricing is actually one of the things that we cover now in the Rapid Revamp. And what we've noticed is even companies that grow to a considerable door count, most of the times their pricing is still just not great. I think we have yet to see a business that their pricing is already optimized, so a lot of times, they're leaving money on the table, which is so awful. Because you're working so hard for your money. Yeah. And you're just not making enough of it. And there's some statistics and data from NARPM. If you ever look at the NARPM data and you look at what like the average property manager's profit margin is, it's pretty abysmal. Yeah. And this is one of the reasons why. [00:08:48] Sarah: It's not the like the only reason, but it's one of the big ones. It's one of the factors. Pricing. So what we've figured out is, hey, a lot of property managers, they just kind of go with the flow. They do what the competition in their market is doing. You know, they just kind of, sometimes they wing it and they go, I think this is good. [00:09:07] Sarah: And they put something together. And when we come in and take a look at it, we can find thousands of dollars more per year. So like Anthony O'Reilly Brookes just said a couple weeks ago on the pricing, he's like, oh, if I just do this one change, I don't even have to do all of these changes. He is like, if I just do this one change, then I can make myself an extra $26,000 a year. [00:09:28] Jason: Yeah. This is one of our clients. It was great. So yeah, so we had an old training. We were the first to roll out kind of the three tier sort of pricing model to bring this to the industry. The basic idea was based around the Goldilocks principle and how it's easier to sell if you have three different types of pricing based on three types of buyers. Pricing secrets, we've rolled out 2.0. [00:09:51] Jason: So some of our past clients, you've gone through our original pricing secrets. You've have maybe a three tier model or maybe at least three plans sort of. Some of you maybe have lease only as one of them, which we don't recommend anymore. But now we've got this three tier hybrid pricing model and I got some of the idea from Scott Brady, really brilliant property manager. [00:10:14] Jason: He was using a hybrid model for pricing out associations. I then put my own spin on it based on what I know about pricing psychology. And I believe this is the most ethical and easiest to sell model. And it allows you to be unique and sell against all your competitors and to kind of poison the well against flat fee companies or percentage based companies. [00:10:36] Jason: And so it gives you competitive advantage and it helps you close more deals more easily at higher price points. So we've got that. The next thing we've made some big advancements into sales. So some of you went through my old Sales secrets training and and this was old school sales, like it was based on NLP neurolinguistic programming. [00:10:57] Jason: It was based on different formulas of communication that some would maybe calm, manipulative, but the idea, and I would present at the beginning, like, don't be evil. You know, like, these are powerful techniques. Well, a lot of the old school sort of sales tactics of high pressure closing and a lot of training you get from most salespeople and people that are known for sales really isn't working in the last three to five years. [00:11:23] Jason: And so there's kind of this new model of selling that needs to be done. And because we're in this post trust era, like everybody's been kind of exposed and woken up a little bit that everything's kind of fake. The news is fake. The pandemic's fake. Voting's fake. Like, like nobody knows who to trust or what to trust because we realize we've just been gaslighted and lied to by everything. Especially the government and powers that are over us. And so nobody trusts anything anymore. And so there's a new model of selling that allows you to create trust that we've learned and rolled out, and we get into some cool tactics like the three dominoes to creating the ultimate pitch. [00:12:05] Jason: I have a model of four phase selling, which is a simple framework for understanding four simple phrases to take people through when having a conversation. And then our Golden Bridge formula, which is even if you learn nothing else, is the ultimate sales hack to just creating authentic trust and connection with somebody, which is the crux of sales. [00:12:25] Jason: You know? And so this is high trust selling, figuring out your personal golden bridge I've used for years in my own sales and in getting on clients, and it's why people trust me so much. And so we'll help you figure out your own. And then we get into this whole new model of selling, which has multiple phases that helps people get their own clarity. [00:12:44] Jason: And what I've realized is people don't understand their problems and what they need, and until you ask them the right questions, and so if you ask them the right questions, people will basically sell themselves. You don't have to push, be pushy In sales, this is more about being empathetic, curious, asking questions, and it feels very good to be sold to in this way, if you could even call it selling. It's really coaching. And so I'm teaching you how to do that as well in this training. And then we've also added recently offer documents, sales trackers, like some really cool stuff that we use at DoorGrow to close deals and that are helping our clients increase their close rates significantly. [00:13:23] Jason: So we made a lot of improvements to our coaching program. Maybe you could talk about some of those things.  [00:13:30] Sarah: Yeah. So there... man, I feel like since I stepped into DoorGrow, we changed everything, so. [00:13:37] Jason: We did.  [00:13:38] Sarah: Which is great because it's like there's a lot of things that we wanted to improve, and there were a lot of things that we wanted to add. So I think one of the best things for me anyway, is I really love the Jumpstart events. So if you join the DoorGrow Mastermind as a newer client, then part of your launch package is going to be an in-person deep dive into your business with Jason and myself, you spend the whole day together with a small group of property managers. [00:14:08] Sarah: We keep it small because I cannot do a deep dive with like 10 people or 20 people. So we do a very small group. Yeah, and we really get into the weeds. We get into the nitty gritty. You walk away with a very clear action plan. You know exactly what to be doing, and you just get so much clarity and connection with other property managers that are attending that event, which is really great because after the event, those people, they stick together for a while, you know? [00:14:36] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:14:36] Jason: Create some nice connections. We rolled out the jumpstart sessions because we started to notice a pattern that when clients would meet us in person or come to DoorGrow Live or conference or anything in person, they would suddenly realize psychologically we were real people. There's just something psychologically about video Zoom calls video trainings in DoorGrow Academy. [00:15:00] Jason: That's not real to our brain. And so I call it the real bubble. And we've realized if we can pop that real bubble from the beginning, clients' perception of and recognizing that we're real people, then that translates into the things that we teach are real. And the things and the results clients are getting are real. [00:15:18] Jason: And so they start to get way better results. And so we want to give people that experience from the beginning, and we've got a much better outcome from all of our clients by getting them to do these in-person things towards the beginning of them joining DoorGrow's Mastermind and they're getting way better results. [00:15:36] Jason: They recognize that this is all real stuff and so they absorb the content in all the information in a completely different way, which is really powerful, so. [00:15:45] Sarah: And I would also say in addition to that too, though, if you had worked with us prior to what, four years ago? I would say probably four is the right answer. [00:15:56] Sarah: If you worked with us anytime before that, we recognized onboarding was very hectic and it was, oh man, it's really overwhelming. Everybody was like, "oh my God, there's so much information and I don't know what to do," and then they try to take it all in and they're overwhelmed and they're focusing on the wrong things. [00:16:13] Sarah: And then they have a bunch of questions and they're trying to like, jump on the calls to get their questions answered. So we did a few things. And the best thing that we have rolled out is. We have a really solid, streamlined onboarding process now.  [00:16:29] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:29] Sarah: So we take you through a very proven like we have a whole course on DoorGrow Academy on onboarding to make sure that you get into all of the tools. You have access to everything. You know how to use it. Because just because you have it, doesn't mean you know how to use it. Yeah. And then that you're connected with our team. Because there are still some times that people are like, "oh, I didn't even know I could talk to Madi. Oh, I didn't know I could talk to Giselle." Or like, "oh, I didn't realize I could do that." Yeah, you absolutely can. We have a whole team to support you. So we make sure that you're connected with the right tools. We make sure you're connected with the team. You get on like a couple of 15 minute coaching calls with our like onboarding specialist right at the beginning just to make sure, like we're going to walk you through everything. We're going to check everything, we're going to explain everything to you, make sure you're on telegram, make sure you're connected to our entire team. And then they get a brand new thing that we had rolled out in addition that we added to onboarding is our client workbooks. [00:17:26] Sarah: So one of the things that everybody says is, "oh my God, it's like drinking out of a fire hose." I hear this almost from every client.  [00:17:33] Jason: Yeah. That analogy comes up all the time. It's like drinking out of a fire hose. Like they say it all the time. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, oh my God, there's so much, there's so much available. [00:17:41] Jason: Yes, there is. So we help them get focused.  [00:17:43] Sarah: And that's great. But it's like when you go to a buffet you're not going to eat everything at the buffet.  [00:17:48] Jason: No.  [00:17:49] Sarah: You only want to eat the things that you want right now. Yeah. And maybe you're like, oh, I'm saving room for dessert later. I know. Like, I'm going to pace myself because I want dessert later for sure. And that's great because you're not ready for dessert now. So it's not that you skip it, it's just that you don't need it right now. So we have a much better system of figuring out what do you need right now. So it's a lot more personalized, it's a lot more customized and then you're able to go through a proven roadmap that's for your business and for your stage. And a lot of that lives in our client workbooks. And that way there's like one place to refer to, you know your belt level requirements. You know your Rapid Revamp to do items. You know what the homework is that you're supposed to be doing. Your sales tracker lives in there and all of your action items and to do items, they're all in there, so you know exactly what to be doing and there's one document to refer to that makes it really easy. [00:18:45] Jason: And when you talk to a coach, we'll map out exactly what you know, we want to figure out your goals, and then we map out tactical items for you to check off and to work on specific to you. And so, even though we've got some different, you know, paths and formulas and classes, we always tailor this to our clients. [00:19:02] Jason: And the client workbook really helps that communication. It literally gets us on the same page, right? Yeah. Together. So, we've added client Success manager, my daughter Madi, who manages all her social media, does all our video editing. She is now also our client success manager, and she's amazing at that. [00:19:17] Jason: So we've had a couple different client success managers over the years and that's really helped improve the connection clients have, the clarity they have, and we also have giselle on our team who can find anything for clients and help them find things.  [00:19:32] Sarah: Giselle is like ai, but she's not. [00:19:34] Jason: Right. Yeah.  [00:19:36] Sarah: She's the best human AI I've ever seen.  [00:19:40] Jason: Yeah. So, and so we've got really good support systems for our clients. We also now leverage Telegram Messenger. We used to use Voxer. Some of my clients in the past, maybe remember Voxer. So I think we've upgraded by using Telegram Messenger for sure. [00:19:54] Jason: And it's a lot more reliable. And so we coach clients directly through it. Walkie-talkie style. They can answer questions anytime. So that's been really effective.  [00:20:01] Sarah: And I mean, that's super powerful too because, yeah, this is the one thing that I like, especially in the Rapid Revamp. I harp on this a lot. [00:20:08] Sarah: Do you have any idea how powerful it is to be connected to a coach? 24 hours a day? Like there is no time in the world that you cannot message us. Yeah. So you can message Jason, you can message me, you can message our whole client success team, including Madi. You can message us any time at all. [00:20:25] Sarah: It doesn't mean we're going to get back to you immediately. Sure. But we get back to you pretty darn quickly. Yeah. And out of all the communication channels, those are the ones that we check the most. So like Jason will never check his email. So if you ever email Jason, it's a black hole, don't do it. [00:20:41] Jason: Someone else will read it. Eventually  [00:20:42] Sarah: But Telegram, he checks Telegram a lot. And I check Telegram. I mean, I message people sometimes back at midnight, like if they send me a message at 11 and I'm still awake at midnight, I'm like, okay. I'm like messaging you in bed. I have no problem doing that. [00:20:55] Sarah: But you're connected very easily and very quickly to a coach who can rapidly answer questions. And it's not, you know, it's not like this cumbersome thing where you're like, "oh, I have to get on a call and figure out a time that works for me." Right? Like it works for you all the time because you just send a message. [00:21:12] Jason: Yeah. So that's been real effective. We've got three different weekly group coaching calls. We've got a Rapid Revamp class where we're optimizing the product of the business. And getting the business dialed up and ready for growth. Then we've got our Growth Accelerator class that we do. So the Rapid Revamp's on Tuesdays. Growth Accelerator is on Wednesdays, and this is where we focus on just adding doors. [00:21:34] Jason: We work with BDMs, we work with salespeople, we work with business owners to figure out how to grow and working on different growth engines. And then we have our Friday class, which is our operations class where we get into creating scalable operations so that you can handle high paced growth without the business falling apart. [00:21:52] Jason: So, we've also added in our Growth Accelerator, we've added a bunch of different growth engines. These are different sort of vehicles or engines you can build in your business that feed you business organically without having to pay for marketing or advertising. And it's actually more effective than any cold lead advertising we've seen to date. [00:22:12] Jason: We just brought on a client with 6,000 doors that was spending 30 grand a month. Trying to do internet marketing and digital marketing to grow their business, and they reached out to us for help. And so we're giving them a better strategy of leveraging business development managers in each market doing organic outreach, and they're going to grow way faster. [00:22:29] Jason: And it's going to cost them way less money. Way less. Right.  [00:22:32] Sarah: And for those of you that are doing paid marketing, do you think you can outspend someone who's spending $30,000 a month?  [00:22:38] Jason: Right. And the reality is there's very little search volume of people looking for property management on the internet, and that's what all of the companies are competing in that red bloody water. And there's tons of blue ocean of people. 60% are self-managing. There's no scarcity. And so we help you get these different growth engines dialed in and we've got great tactics like you know, product research interviews, realtor intros, which is 10 times more effective than realtor referrals, which a lot of you try and it doesn't work super well. [00:23:05] Jason: We've got you know, some clever tactics of going direct to investors. We also launched this ROI calculator that's pretty brilliant. That goes along with our realtor intro strategy. We've got the neighbor strategy. Which helps you get business from neighboring property management companies, which is really brilliant. [00:23:23] Jason: We've got warm review outreach, which will help you get better reviews, help you increase the lifetime value of your tenants and owners, and help you get more referrals from your existing clients. And so that can be real effective. Any one of these has helped our clients at a hundred to 200 doors a year organically, and you can install as many of these as you want. [00:23:42] Jason: We've got outbound partner prospecting where you can go after lenders, insurance agents, attorneys, vendors, and another example is groups like one to many sales and how to, instead of walking away from a group interaction where you hope maybe you'll get a lead or a referral or something, you walk away with scheduled, booked calls and can make money. [00:24:04] Jason: So, cool. So those are some of our growth engines. Let's talk about, this is new.  [00:24:09] Sarah: I love talking about DoorGrow Hiring. We could do a whole podcast episode on just that alone. Sure. And this is not specific just to property management businesses, this is businesses in general. Yeah. They. Really struggle with hiring. [00:24:22] Sarah: It's hard. It is so challenging and what usually happens is you wait until you're in pain and then you hurry up to hire and then your situation gets worse than it was before. And then, now you've got, you know, some scar tissue and now you're like, oh, I don't think I want to hire. Or like, ah, there's no good people out there. [00:24:44] Sarah: Like, I've been burned before. And it's because people approach everything pretty much the wrong way. Yeah. So we built this into entire system that's called DoorGrow Hiring. And we'll take people through it to make sure that you've got everything in line that you need ahead of time. So that you can actually be prepared to find the right person. We also give you proven processes to help you find the right people. Including things like your R Docs, which is just a fancy word for job description, your company culture. We build out your application, we put it on your website. We give you like the job postings. We give you an interview guide. [00:25:20] Sarah: I literally give you the words to use in an interview, these are the questions you're going to ask. This is the order you're going to ask them in, and these are the words you're going to say, and then that is it. We take you like step by step. So we created this whole system in order to help people find really great team members instead of playing Russian roulette with hiring, which is really dangerous. [00:25:45] Jason: Yeah. So, and the whole crux of it is focused on the three fits, which is finding the right culture fit, skill fit, and personality fit for the role. You cannot create those in people, you have to find them. And finding all three can be challenging and our whole hiring system's built around that. So, just three more things real quick. [00:26:03] Jason: One, we've focused on the five levels of exit. So a lot of property managers can't figure out how to exit the frontline work of the business, so they end up then selling the business because they're miserable in it. So we help you figure out how to get to there's five levels. We help you figure out how to get to somewhere in the middle where you're happiest and you're out of that frontline work without going all the way to exit five and selling the business and having a lack of purpose or you know, not having the business anymore and then trying to start something new and getting to the same level of problem in the video game and you keep losing against the same boss and whatever. So we help you figure out how to beat that boss in the video game. We also launched DoorGrow OS, which is a really robust planning system. [00:26:45] Jason: We have found some fundamental flaws in other planning systems, which are a step up. Just having one like EOS, Traction, Rocket Fuel, some of this kind of stuff. We've built something we believe is innovative and far better after working with some of the most brilliant operations people. And, probably in the world. [00:27:01] Jason: And so this is DoorGrow OS and this is our secret sauce at DoorGrow. And so we're helping people roll out and implement a planning cadence and system and get operators in place that can run this for you, the visionary entrepreneurs. So that your business runs smoothly and you can handle high-paced growth and have goals and get your team focused on the strategic side of the business rather than just being micromanaged through tactical work and task management. [00:27:29] Jason: And then this is the last item you want to talk about this one? [00:27:33] Sarah: Well, we've got our DoorGrow Live conference coming up, so I think you did the first one in like 2018. Then we took a break and then we brought them back. So yeah. We run our DoorGrow Live conference once a year, this is our big event, we open it up to clients, past clients, people who have never even worked with us. People who are in and around the property management industry, including real estate. Because if you're in real estate, you should seriously consider getting into property management, or at least knowing a property manager. And if you need to know a great property manager, there's going to be a lot of them in the room. [00:28:06] Sarah: So, the DoorGrow Live, it's a really powerful event. We bring in some fantastic speakers. It's always very motivational and very tactical, so no matter what it is that you're looking for from the event, you will find it there. And it's a great place to connect and meet people who are doing the same thing that you are doing. [00:28:28] Sarah: Because that is just such a powerful tool to be able to have a network of people that you can rely on and that understand you and understand what exactly you're trying to do and what you're going through.  [00:28:40] Jason: Yeah, and we have some amazing vendors that sponsor the event. One of them told me this is the only event that they now do of all the property management events, because it's their favorite. It's the best one. Even though it's small compared to many. They love this one and they get so much value out of learning and being at it as an entrepreneur. And so that says a lot. And so, these are different property managers. [00:29:03] Jason: These are growth-minded people that invest in their businesses. These are not the people that are just trying to have a shitty vacation and escape and go to a bar. These are people that are focused on growth. And so if you want to be around the best in the industry DoorGrow Live is the place to be around the best, and you are the sum of the five property management business owners that you're the most connected to. [00:29:23] Jason: You know, birds of a feather flock together. So if you're growth minded, you want to be at this event. So, and by the time this airs, for a lot of you, if you're listening to this on Spotify or somewhere else. You may have already missed this year, so, but get your tickets and we've got some cool bonuses that we're giving to people if they attend. [00:29:40] Jason: So. Cool. That's it for today. If you have felt stuck or stagnant or want to take your property management business the next level, reach out to us at DoorGrow.com. Also join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners. We reject 70% of applicants doorgrowclub.com. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. [00:30:02] Jason: We'd really appreciate it. Until next time, remember, the slowest path to growth is to do it alone, so let's grow together. Bye everyone.

If you were managing a football team and you had someone with the skills to be a star quarterback, would you have them be a kicker?  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the pitfalls of having dual roles in your property management business. You'll Learn [01:26] How to Guarantee Your Team Will Fail [06:19] Why Dual Roles Often Do Not Work [09:17] Set Your Team Members Up for Success Quotables “It's never ideal when we have a dual role, but it is possible in certain cases.”  ”Most entrepreneurs, we can do this, we can shift and balance back and forth. The problem is that then we think that's normal. And we expect other people to be able to do that.” “We make the mistake as entrepreneurs of assuming other people think the way we do.” “You probably could wear 10 different hats in your business, but you don't enjoy doing probably half of them at least.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If you have a star quarterback... [00:00:02] Jason: yes.  [00:00:03] Sarah: And that quarterback...  [00:00:03] Jason: super sharp  [00:00:04] Sarah: can put that ball anywhere on the field with pinpoint precision,  [00:00:08] Jason: right?  [00:00:09] Sarah: Are you going to take that quarterback and make him the kicker?  [00:00:12] Jason: All right. We are Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted, and cleaned up hundreds of businesses, helping them add doors, improve pricing, increase profits, simplify operations, and build and replace teams. We are like Bar Rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 property management businesses, and we run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry.  [00:01:02] Jason: At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world, and that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:01:12] Jason: At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show. Alright. [00:01:26] Jason: Sarah, what are we talking about today?  [00:01:29] Sarah: We are going to talk about how you can almost guarantee that your team will fail.  [00:01:34] Jason: Guaranteed failure. And the method to do this- yes- we call dual role...  [00:01:40] Sarah: oh.  [00:01:41] Jason: Team members...  [00:01:41] Sarah: yes.  [00:01:42] Jason: Right? So and so, what's the scenario? What do we mean by dual role? And it's pretty common. [00:01:48] Sarah: I see it quite a bit.  [00:01:50] Sarah: Yeah. Do you see it a lot?  [00:01:51] Jason: Yeah. I mean, do you want me to explain the idea or you want to explain what you see?  [00:01:55] Jason: No, I just want to know if you see it a lot.  [00:01:56] Jason: Yeah. I see a lot of people make this mistake when hiring. I don't see it work  [00:02:01] Sarah: Well, no.  [00:02:02] Jason: And I see people try to do it, but I see a lot of failure. [00:02:06] Jason: I've seen companies with, I talked to one the other day with 6,000 doors, which was kind of trying to do a dual role. And I've seen lots of startups try to do more than just two roles. They're trying to get somebody that's like them. They're like, I just need to find the clone. I call that the clone myth, like that's the earliest stage of hiring, the biggest mistake. [00:02:26] Jason: They're like, I just need somebody that can do 10 roles, 10 things. Someone just like me as an entrepreneur that would love to work for me, unlike an entrepreneur. Right. So how about you? You've helped a lot of our clients with hiring. So what what comes up?  [00:02:41] Sarah: So usually, and let's just backtrack and say, alright, by dual role. [00:02:47] Sarah: Yeah. What we mean is, Hey, I need to hire someone and they're going to do this and that. So they're going to do, you know, sales and manage the doors. They're going to do the operations and like help me with the team and stuff and then also they're going to be a property manager or a maintenance coordinator or whatever. [00:03:08] Sarah: Yeah. So take two roles that are not the same thing and mash them together, and this is what we mean by dual role. And this situation gets aggravated significantly if those two different roles are also two different personality types.  [00:03:26] Jason: Yeah.  [00:03:26] Sarah: So if you have someone who's going to do operations and function as an assistant. [00:03:32] Sarah: Okay. I mean, it's not ideal, but it's possible. Yeah. It's possible. If you have someone who's going to function as like a sales appointment setter and a closer or, and a BDM. It's possible. It's never ideal when we have a dual role, but it is possible in certain cases. [00:03:52] Sarah: Okay. Where it never works out is what all entrepreneurs think is, "oh, I'm like that. I can do that." Yeah. So somebody else should be able to do that too. Well, I can shift in and out of different roles and in and out of different personality types, and I can turn it on and off like a light switch when I need to, so then that means everybody can, and it's not true. We are very unique in that.  [00:04:17] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:17] Sarah: So I can also turn it on and off, like light switch when I need to get into something, I'm like, okay. Like let's go. And then when I'm done, I'm like, oh, okay. Get out of that. And I kind of shift back to my natural normal state. [00:04:30] Sarah: So if any of you guys see me ever in person. That is not my natural normal state. It's just not because it's so high energy. Especially at something like a DoorGrow Live event. Yeah. Like after DoorGrow Live, I crash for about two days, like two full days. This is true. I'm done. I am done. I sleep for like 15 hours, 16 hours straight because I've spent too much time in my opposite. [00:04:54] Sarah: Yeah. And most entrepreneurs, we can do this, we can shift and balance back and forth. The problem is that then we think that's normal. And we expect other people to be able to do that, and most people cannot do that.  [00:05:07] Jason: Yeah. The mistake that a lot of us make, like you said, is we make the mistake as entrepreneurs of assuming other people think the way we do. [00:05:15] Jason: Entrepreneurs do this all the time. They assume other people are money motivated, so they try to bonus them or compensate them with money. Most people are not actually. They assume that people are adaptable and can just wear lots of different hats and be entrepreneurial like that way, but that's also not generally the case. [00:05:34] Jason: And if they are adaptable, usually they go start their own business. So they leave, and I've seen a lot of property managers steal doors from their employers, so their employer's basically just training their next replacement.  [00:05:47] Jason: I love, I think when we don't put the dogs away during a podcast, and I'm being super sarcastic right now. [00:05:52] Sarah: Yeah. Well, I did say this was going to be a quick podcast, but the food... [00:05:56] Sarah: so maybe this is a sign we should wrap it up. Yeah, the food that you ordered is probably...  [00:06:01] Jason: Oh yeah. I ordered some food. [00:06:02] Sarah: ...being delivered right now because it's like six o'clock on a Monday right now. Which is great.  [00:06:07] Jason: They're protecting us from the food. [00:06:09] Jason: So, while we've got a chorus of dogs in the background.  [00:06:12] Sarah: They're just confirming.  [00:06:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:06:14] Sarah: They're like, definitely they agree with us. Don't try to hire two different people. So here's the idea.  [00:06:19] Jason: Let's break this down real quick and then we'll wrap up because the dogs are going insane, but. People do not have split personalities that you want to hire. [00:06:28] Jason: They're not two different people, and so different roles have different personality types, and it's very difficult to find somebody that can jump into very different roles and personalities that would actually enjoy those. Even you as a business owner, you probably could wear 10 different hats in your business, but you don't enjoy doing probably half of them at least. [00:06:46] Jason: If not most. Yeah. And so that's the idea. So you need to figure out what would a good property manager look like? What would a good business development person look like? They can't be both. What would a good assistant look like? What would a good operations person look like? What would a good maintenance coordinator look like? [00:07:02] Jason: They can't be multiple things typically, and I think we got to end. Okay. It's getting louder.  [00:07:08] Sarah: They're just dropping off the order. That's all. Now we have three dogs barking.  [00:07:13] Jason: It's not stopping.  [00:07:14] Sarah: So we have a big one and a medium one and a very little one.  [00:07:19] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:19] Sarah: But you know, that's a good example though, is so we've got three very different dogs. [00:07:25] Sarah: Like Captain is small, he's maybe 14 pounds, and Parker is pretty large. He's about 85 pounds. So would I do the same thing for the big dog that I would do for the little dog? No, I'm going to feed him differently. I'm going to, you know, get him like a different size harness, et cetera. You have to kind of think of roles in your business the same way. If you're trying to treat every role the exact same, it'll be really hard because you'll be like, I don't know, I don't understand. Like that worked with my sales guy. Why can't I just throw more money at this person and then they're going to be better? Yeah. That worked with my sales guy. [00:07:58] Sarah: Yeah, of course it did. It's not going to work in other roles. And then if you're a dual role and you're trying to constantly bounce back and forth, like, oh, I got to do the sales and I got to like do maintenance coordination and like property management work, like, oh well, which, what am I supposed to do? [00:08:14] Sarah: What do I prioritize? And then when you get busy, when you get overwhelmed and you get stressed, something is going to not get done. And it's really hard sometimes to choose, well, what am I going to sacrifice? Because both things are important, and I can tell you that 99% of the time, the thing that will be sacrificed is the thing that they just don't like doing. [00:08:35] Sarah: Yeah. So if they don't like doing the property management piece. Your delivery is going to tank. And then if they don't like doing the sales piece, they're going to focus on the delivery and your sales. You're going to have none. And you'll be wondering, well, I don't understand. Like I hired you to do both and this is why this is that pitfall. [00:08:53] Sarah: So if you want to guarantee that your team is going to fail, that your business is going to be stressed, and that your team, you are, it's almost a guaranteed like turnover of your team as well because they're not going to, they're not going to stay when they're not happy. And part of them is doing a role that they hate. [00:09:11] Sarah: The other part of them might be doing something that they really love, but part of them, for part of their day, they're doing something that they hate.  [00:09:17] Jason: Yeah. So to drive this home, it's really important that you don't put people in a position that they're going to fail. And here's a big major tip. If you have somebody that's good at selling, and you're having them waste time doing anything else, that is a really stupid way to like waste a resource. Like if somebody can make you money and bring fresh money into the business and you have them doing stupid stuff like posting notices or talking to your existing clients. You are wasting a massively valuable resource. [00:09:54] Jason: They would make you so much money they could pay for multiple other team members if you just let them only focus on business development. And so if they can sell, get them just doing that. If they're good at that. If they are good at property management, don't have them waste time dinking around trying to sell. [00:10:11] Jason: Go get somebody that can sell, that can grow your business. Right. And there's other roles, but we're using these two as an example. But yeah, dual roles work. I doesn't work.  [00:10:19] Jason: I think  [00:10:19] Sarah: that's one of the most common ones. I see.  [00:10:21] Jason: Yeah. It is pretty common.  [00:10:22] Sarah: It's either sales and operations, which like never works. [00:10:25] Sarah: Yeah. Or sales and like property management. Yeah. Those are like the two most common that I see. And the way that I explain it to people is. If you understand sports... [00:10:37] Sarah: we're using sports analogy?  [00:10:38] Sarah: We are. We're going to use a sports analogy. Okay. So on a football team...  [00:10:43] Jason: yes. [00:10:43] Sarah: If you have a star quarterback... [00:10:46] Jason: yes.  [00:10:46] Sarah: And that quarterback...  [00:10:47] Jason: super sharp  [00:10:47] Sarah: can put that ball anywhere on the field with pinpoint precision,  [00:10:52] Jason: right?  [00:10:52] Sarah: Are you going to take that quarterback and make him the kicker?  [00:10:56] Jason: No, that'd be stupid.  [00:10:57] Sarah: Or the blocker... [00:10:58] Jason: that would be really bad.  [00:10:59] Sarah: Or a defensive lineman? No way. How about the water boy?  [00:11:02] Sarah: No.  [00:11:03] Sarah: Why would you ever do any of that? Right?  [00:11:04] Sarah: So people who are like, they're like, oh my God, no. So are you going to see the star quarterback doing anything other than his job?  [00:11:13] Jason: No.  [00:11:14] Sarah: Never. Never. No.  [00:11:15] Jason: That's actually a really great analogy.  [00:11:18] Sarah: I know. I'm really smart sometimes. So there's...  [00:11:21] Jason: you're really smart all the time, and you know this.  [00:11:24] Sarah: I do know this. [00:11:24] Jason: Don't pretend you're humble. [00:11:26] Sarah: Well, I'm the most humble of all of the Zodiac signs.  [00:11:30] Jason: Yeah me too. I'm super humble too.  [00:11:31] Sarah: No, I'm the most humble though.  [00:11:33] Jason: You're way more humble than me.  [00:11:34] Sarah: I'm more humble than all of...  [00:11:36] Jason: you're the most humble ever.  [00:11:37] Sarah: As Scorpios, we all are. Okay, guys. Yeah. So anyway, if you're going to have your quarterback doing anything other than that, like that would just be silly. It would just be stupid. So if you were watching TV and that's what your team did while you were watching...  [00:11:52] Jason: yeah.  [00:11:52] Sarah: And it's like a playoff game. And that's what happens is you're like, why is my quarterback, what are you...? You wouldn't even believe your eyes. But then that's what you are doing in your business is you are taking your sales person, your star sales person, and you're making them do other stuff. So it works the same way. It's divide and conquer. That's like football teams do this. That's why it's not just a free for all when you get on the field, it's like, all right guys, just figure out how to, no. Yeah, they're specialists. They divide and conquer. Your business is the same thing.  [00:12:22] Jason: That's a great analogy. Cool. So it's super obvious in sports, like you've got some guy, man, he could throw it anywhere on the field. Look how accurate he is. He's not super big, but man, he can really throw it. Maybe we should have this guy just be a kicker. Yeah. That would like, that'd be crazy, but somebody's really amazing kicking the ball.  [00:12:39] Sarah: Some of you guys would lose your freaking minds if you saw that happen in a game.  [00:12:42] Jason: Right? But then you're doing it in your business! [00:12:44] Jason: You do it in your own business. You're doing it in your business. They're like, well, they could do both and maybe it'll save money and they can kind of do two things, and you wonder why the business is struggling or not growing. So we need to make strategic hires. We need to be make careful hires. [00:12:56] Jason: We need to get the right personality fit, skill fit, culture fit. We talked about the three fits on previous episodes, but you also want to make sure that personality fit, they are a really great personality fit for that particular role, and you're not trying to hire them for two. All right. Anything else we need to say about this? [00:13:11] Sarah: I don't think so. We're going to go eat.  [00:13:13] Jason: Cool. So if you have felt stuck or stagnant and want to take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com. Also, join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. [00:13:34] Jason: We'd really appreciate it. Until next time, remember, the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.

The property management industry is no stranger to conferences and in-person events, but have you ever thought about creating an event yourself? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the behind-the-scenes of putting on a live event or conference and all the pros and cons of doing so. You'll Learn [04:39] Learning from Past Mistakes and Failures [15:32] Getting Back in the Saddle: DoorGrow Live [21:07] What Goes Into Creating a Conference? [30:31] The Magic of In-Person Events Quotables “I think being able to just connect with people, making sure that people know who you are and what you do, I mean, it's really valuable.” “When you've got a room full of people who are in the same sector, in the same industry, there's so much knowledge in that room.” “When you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and a share a business model, like it really helps you grow.” “Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: When you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and share a business model, like it really helps you grow. [00:00:08] Jason: Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to. [00:00:13] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the Property Management Growth Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:42] Jason: You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. [00:01:06] Jason: We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:14] Sarah: Woo!  [00:01:15] Jason: So first, you'll have to excuse if I sound a little nasally today, because I have a cold, which doesn't happen often. And I might have given it to Sarah. I don't know. [00:01:25] Sarah: My sinuses just feel weird.  [00:01:27] Jason: So.  [00:01:27] Sarah: So thanks.  [00:01:28] Jason: Yeah.  [00:01:29] Sarah: Thanks for that.  [00:01:30] Jason: Okay, so.  [00:01:31] Sarah: Appreciate it.  [00:01:32] Jason: You keep kissing me. I'm not kissing you. Like I'm not trying to get you sick.  [00:01:35] Sarah: He's not kissing me.  [00:01:36] Sarah: She can't resist.  [00:01:37] Sarah: Does anybody believe that? Nobody believes you. Nobody should.  [00:01:40] Jason: I'm sick. You keep coming up to me. [00:01:42] Jason: I'm like, you want this? Obviously she does, guys. Obviously.  [00:01:46] Sarah: Oh brother.  [00:01:47] Sarah: Alright.  [00:01:48] Sarah: What a great episode. What a great kicker offered.  [00:01:51] Jason: So I might be coughing and I apologize. Alright, so what we're talking about today is we thought we'd give you a little bit of behind the scenes into us creating an event and us doing DoorGrow Live, getting prepped and prepared for this. You know, we put an entire year into getting this thing going and getting this prepared and promoting it, finding speakers. [00:02:15] Jason: And so let's chat a little bit about some of the behind the scenes stuff.  [00:02:19] Sarah: Yeah. So one of the things that I wanted to talk about is kind of everything that really goes into it behind the scenes that when you go attend an event, you just don't notice. You just don't like realize a lot of the times, unless you're used to running events. [00:02:35] Sarah: And once you start running an event, go run one event and then you will attend every other event differently. For example, when we go to, you know, Aaron's events, or Funnel Hacking Live, my brain is constantly going, like, operationally, this must be a nightmare. How on earth are they coordinating all of this? [00:02:56] Sarah: It's just insane. Because I know how crazy it is with our conferences, and we don't yet have thousands of people there. We will, at one point. But, man, there's just so much that goes into it. So, If you're ever considering running events, and I think that for property managers and for anyone who's a real estate agent or investor, I really think events are something that you should at least look into. And it doesn't have to be this big crazy event where, you know, you spend 25- 30 thousand dollars like we do and that's kind of like a low budget, you know. That's like you'll blow through that real quick. It doesn't have to be anything like that and it definitely doesn't have to be this, you know, this big crazy promoted thing you can do your own version of events like in a very different way, back when I was in property management, you know, we would do some little networking events and they were nowhere near the size, but also nowhere near the cost, but they can be really beneficial for you to do. So I think if you haven't experimented with that, then maybe get some tips and pointers and check it out. Like try it, experiment and see what happens. Because for me, it was really great to just be connected. So there's that saying, "your net worth is in your network," and I think being able to just connect with people, make sure that people know who you are and what you do, I mean, it's really valuable. So if you're a property manager and you haven't done a little in person event yet, then perhaps you might want to try. And we're going to talk a little bit about, you know, what goes into like a bigger event the way that we run them. So why don't you give them some background? [00:04:41] Sarah: When was your first? Your first DoorGrow Live was pre-Sarah, the pre-Sarah DoorGrow age, I think it was it 2018?  [00:04:49] Jason: Yeah. 2018. 2018. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:04:51] Sarah: Okay. Can you talk about you know, what was the first DoorGrow Live like?  [00:04:57] Jason: Oh man. Yeah. And if you want to get a visual of this, you can go to, I think it's photos.doorgrow.Com and we have photos of all of our different major events. You can go back to 2018 and there's a nice photo of me and Mike Michalowicz there. And so we brought in some big, you know, for me, they were big speakers. Some people that I really looked up to and that I got a lot of value from. [00:05:22] Jason: So, coach, authors, you know, people that I had worked with. And so, it was a big deal. We spent, I think we spent about $115,000. Putting that event together because I wanted to do it, right. I didn't want my first event to be Mickey Mouse or cheap or you know, whatever So I wanted to do a really good job and I thought well, "and we'll sell tickets to make up for it." We did. We sold about a hundred and fifteen tickets at around, I think $1,000 a pop. [00:05:53] Jason: And I have a whole podcast episode I did on this. I call it my $2 million mistake because we were growing at a pace of, we were doing about a million in revenue a year and we were growing at a pace of about 300% percent at the time we were growing really quickly. We had a lot of momentum, and I decided to do this big conference. It was a little bit of an ego thing. Like it was like kind of a dream that I wanted to feel cool and be on stage and it was super stressful. The event went really well. People liked it, but I was massively stressed during it. And then I didn't do another one for how many years? I don't know.  [00:06:29] Sarah: Yeah, that was his first and only and then like canceled it  [00:06:33] Jason: I was like, "I don't think I'll do that again." [00:06:35] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:06:36] Jason: I mean I didn't realize everything that goes into it. I'm sure people were watching me start my first conference from the sidelines who have done events in the space were like, "good luck, bro," because they know how hard it can be. [00:06:47] Jason: It's like starting a whole nother business but you have to recognize there's like the hotel. It's hard to do an event that's not at a hotel. So you kind of have to do it at hotels and so they have this like, sort of, they're like the mafia. [00:07:01] Jason: They have this control over doing events. Like, and you go to them, you're like, "I want to do an event here." And they're like, "cool." And like finances become a thing and they negotiate a group rate with you, which means you have to book certain number of rooms because they want you to book rooms, and if you don't book out the group rate for the rooms in the room block, then you're responsible to pay for that. [00:07:24] Jason: So we were on the hook for like a lot of money for rooms. I'm like, "well, how many rooms does that mean? And like how many nights?" And all this stuff. So just managing finances for an event is like managing finances for a dangerous business startup is really what it is. Because people have gone bankrupt from doing big events really big events where you have two, three thousand, five thousand. These are millions and millions of dollars in and out. [00:07:48] Sarah: Yeah. [00:07:49] Jason: And if they don't navigate this well, it can bankrupt companies  [00:07:53] Sarah: Russell just said that on stage. He didn't say who, but Russell Brunson said that he knew someone that was running a big event, didn't sell enough rooms in the room block, and he went bankrupt from it because it was such a large event and he was on the hook for so much money and ended up bankrupting the company. [00:08:13] Jason: It's dangerous. And then you got to get people to buy the ticket, book the hotel, like, and then there's marketing to do this. You got to spend a lot of money to get people to do this. And then, you know, in order to attract people, sometimes people will do like big speakers. Like I got some speakers and let me tell you speakers, they're expensive. [00:08:33] Jason: Like usually they, they want thousands and thousands of dollars. Like an  [00:08:37] Sarah: inexpensive speaker just to like put it out there, like an inexpensive speaker is still usually around like 5k  [00:08:44] Jason: Anyone you've probably heard of is that minimum 25 grand.  [00:08:47] Sarah: Well more than that. [00:08:49] Jason: And if they're a big name It's 50k, 100k, it can be really expensive to have them come be in an event. [00:08:58] Jason: So, Yeah, so it can be really challenging. Then there's food and beverage minimums. So the hotel, they're like, "you also have to spend a certain amount on food and beverage while you're here." Yeah, so they're like, "you have to book a certain number of rooms. You have to, like, pay for a certain number of food and beverage, and you're not allowed to bring any other food or beverage into our place." [00:09:19] Jason: Nope.  [00:09:19] Jason: "You have to use our stuff. And our stuff is like going to the movie theater. It's overly priced, like, inflated."  [00:09:26] Sarah: Remember, we did the Game Changer event at the JW Marriott in Austin so I looked at everything afterwards and it was not a huge event. It was not a big event. We had under 20 people there. [00:09:40] Sarah: Yeah. And that included like Jason, myself, DoorGrow staff, speakers, like under 20 people. And one lunch and we had, it was a two day event. So we did like two lunches. So one lunch, I think was somewhere around like two or 3,000 dollars. Yeah, it was insane for lunch.  [00:09:57] Jason: And my first event, we spent eight grand to provide coffee for two days. Eight grand for...  [00:10:03] Sarah: coffee. Yeah.  [00:10:05] Jason: For two days like and you know, and they have all these rules. I think the rules are made to inflate the price, but they have these food and beverage and they charge you sometimes by plate. So that hotel that we were at our first event, we didn't realize this, but they have people to go around and pick up plates. [00:10:22] Jason: And you're paying by the number of plates people use. Like how much food they consume and by plate. So they were picking up plates.  [00:10:29] Sarah: Oh my god.  [00:10:30] Jason: It's a racket. Like if you go into this not knowing what you're doing, some hotels can take gross amounts of money. Wow. They negotiate a terrible group rate, they negotiate a horrible food and beverage minimum is really high for you, and then you go way over that minimum if they have anything to do with it. [00:10:45] Jason: And so you're spending all this money and they're like, "well..."  [00:10:47] Sarah: you'll never have to worry about hitting your minimum in food and beverage, like, never. No, really.  [00:10:51] Jason: I mean, if you want food there, period, like,  [00:10:54] Sarah: you're going to hit it. So, I don't care. I don't even care what my minimum is because it doesn't, honestly, it doesn't even matter.  [00:11:00] Jason: Yeah. So then people think, oh, well, then I'll do the event somewhere else. Well, if you do it somewhere else, then how are they going to get from where they're staying to the venue? And so then there's a logistical challenge. So then like people aren't like coming and it's just like it's so much easier if they walk. [00:11:17] Jason: So everything gets like complicated when you don't do it at the hotel.  [00:11:22] Sarah: Where was your first event? Where was it?  [00:11:24] Jason: It was in St. Louis at an old classic hotel. It was really beautiful.  [00:11:28] Sarah: Okay. Interesting.  [00:11:30] Jason: Yeah, we did in St. Louis. We did it at This hotel and we did it because we thought we'll make it easy because NARPM had an event around the same time. [00:11:41] Jason: So we're like, Oh man, we want to do it at the same time. So let's just do it at the same venue. I think we did it the same venue, but we booked a nicer room on the top floor with lots of windows. It was very cool. And it was on different days. So you could attend both. We thought that would give us some cross pollination and really, it didn't. [00:12:00] Jason: Like there were a few people that went to the NARPM one and came to ours, but yeah, it was like so small. So that didn't even really help. "We're like, yeah, it's so easy to stay a little longer and go to ours." [00:12:08] Sarah: Interesting. Okay. Yeah.  [00:12:10] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:11] Sarah: So after the first DoorGrow Live, he decided, I think when I came on board, he said, "I'm never doing another event again." [00:12:18] Jason: Yeah, I just didn't want to deal with it. It was so stressful. And your whole team, that's the real part of it, is like your whole team is involved in it in different ways, unless you have someone specifically handling sales, event, marketing, planning, advertising, planning, like every role we had in our business that we needed for our business had to go towards the conference because we were now on the hook for, I can't remember, like 50, 80 grand or something with the hotel. We had to figure out how to get rooms booked. We had to figure out how to pay for speakers. It was a whole thing. It was like starting a whole nother business. And our main thing was no longer the main thing. [00:12:58] Jason: So our business stopped growing. It actually didn't grow for several years after that, like a couple of years after that. And that's why I call it my 3 million or 2 million mistake, but it was probably a bigger multi million dollar mistake than that, because there's a lot of money I could have made over those years extra. [00:13:14] Jason: We're not hurting by any means, but that really slowed things down. And I just chalk that up to being the price of tuition in business. I made a mistake. I didn't know. And I learned from it, right? And I didn't listen to my mentor. Alex was like, "make it a really small event. Make it really small. Do your first one, make it small." I'm like, "no way. I've been to so many events. I'm going to make this awesome. I want this. If I'm going to compete with all the other events that are out there, I want this to be the best." And I really think, like, we had the best food there. We had the best, like, everything was the best. [00:13:46] Jason: We had audio visual team. We had a stage set up, like, we put a lot of money into this and it was pretty awesome. Like, it went pretty well. But I was massively stressed during the whole event. And yeah, but people that went, they gave us good feedback. They had a good experience. So, which I'm glad. Then you got to like ticket sales is hard too. [00:14:06] Jason: That's a tough challenge. How do you get people to give up what they're doing to come do something else? And so, you know, we've created some really strong magic. I think at DoorGrow, like our in person events, there's just something magical about our events. There's more heart, there's more connection. [00:14:20] Jason: It changes lives and that's very different than what has happened in the space. And I think that's more just about who we are and what we bring and the type of speakers that we bring in. It's very different than just property management.  [00:14:34] Sarah: And so that's one of the things I wanted to talk about is, so you did your first event. [00:14:39] Sarah: It went well, but it was pretty crazy. We basically broke even. We're not doing another event. I came on to the business a couple years after this and there's still a lot of like trauma and PTSD associated with it and then we started talking. Well, what if we do another event? And he said "no. No I don't want to do another event," and I said, "well, what if we do it differently?" So we did bring DoorGrow Live back after that first conference that they did and we've done several of them since then. We have another one coming up in May. It's May 16th and 17th. It's a Friday and Saturday at the Kalahari Resorts in the North Austin, Texas area. So if you're watching this and you have not yet registered, then definitely go do that. You can go to doorgrowlive.Com. But we've done several of these events since then, and one of the reasons that we wanted to bring these events back, especially even though for Jason it was just so, so traumatic, we just needed to do them a little differently. [00:15:43] Sarah: So, the reason that we wanted to bring them back though is because everything is just so much different when it's in person. And we know that there's so much magic that can just happen if, you know, if we can get people in a room. It's not just going to another conference. So in the industry, there's a lot of conferences, I mean, there's tech conferences and like all the big you know softwares have their own thing and there's NARPM events and there's all kinds of things like this and DoorGrow Live is just different. It's different than all of those things. We're not trying to focus on hey, you know, what are they doing and let's duplicate it. We're focused on how can we provide like such a great experience and such great value and real connection in a like large group environment? Which is hard. [00:16:38] Sarah: Like that's a challenge. If you're like, okay, we're going to get, you know, 50 to a hundred people in a room and we want them to all be connected. That's hard. That's hard. But I think that our events do actually a really great job at that.  [00:16:49] Jason: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, we get great testimonials. It's going to we have a really cool venue We just decided to keep doing it at this Kalahari resort. [00:16:59] Jason: It's near our house. It's in Round Rock They treat us really well there. It's a big it's like we have endless room to grow there We could have thousands and thousands of people someday if we wanted to. There's plenty of room there  [00:17:12] Sarah: But they're great to work with and the rooms are nice. When you guys book a room, the rooms are nice, everything is right on property, it's very family friendly too, so, you know, if you want to kind of bring your family and usually, I've noticed sometimes people, when they go to the conference, and then their family stays at home, there's a little bit of like, "oh, you're leaving me with the kids, like, what is this? Like, you get to go off to a conference and," well, come, like, come with us and you guys can hang out at, like the water park and the Build A Bear and the restaurants and the like arcade and there's still...  [00:17:48] Jason: America's largest indoor water park. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:17:52] Sarah: And I think when you book a room, they include a ticket. [00:17:53] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:17:54] Jason: You get a ticket to all a bunch of cool stuff. So like you get a, like a wristband. So yeah it's a pretty fun place. Like there's a whole Facebook group just for people looking for deals and discounts to stay at this resort. Yeah. They're like always talking about it in that group. I've joined all the local groups, just see what's going on. [00:18:15] Jason: So, yeah, so it's pretty interesting. So yeah, we've got a really cool venue. And oh, the other things places have charged us for other places we've done some of our events they charge us for electricity, they charge us for, like, just having cords put down.  [00:18:31] Sarah: They charge for internet. [00:18:32] Jason: They find a way to charge you for everything at some venues, and so, not all venues are equal. [00:18:38] Jason: So, yeah, so we've really appreciated the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock. It's a cool resort, and they treat us really well there, so.  [00:18:45] Sarah: Yeah, and it's a great experience for people. Because that's really frustrating when you go into any kind of hotel and you're like, "Oh. Why is this where I'm at? I guess I'll be here because the conference is here, but outside of the conference being here, I would never book here." And this is not that at all. Like people like to book here for sure. I think now let's do our little demo and then we'll get back into it.  [00:19:08] Jason: Got a little sponsor for today's episode, KRS SmartBooks. [00:19:13] Jason: Do you have properties to manage and zero time for bookkeeping headaches? KRS SmartBooks is your secret weapon. They specialize in finances for busy property managers like you with 15 plus years of real estate know how and skills in Appfolio, Yardi, and more. Imagine monthly reports magically appearing and zero accounting stress. [00:19:35] Jason: Sound good? Head to KRS Books. At K as in Kansas, R as in Roger, S as in Sam. Books. Sarah's already dying. She's like, you didn't do the right military phonetically.  [00:19:46] Sarah: I really am dying inside.  [00:19:47] Jason: KRSbooks. com to book your free discovery call. Integrity, quality, and a dash of bookkeeping brilliance. That's KRS Smart Books. [00:19:58] Jason: Alright, how should I phonetically do KRS?  [00:20:00] Sarah: K like Kilo, R like Romeo, S like Sierra.  [00:20:04] Jason: Alright, Sarah, by the way, is Becoming a pilot. She's taking pilot flying lessons.  [00:20:11] Sarah: I've known the military code for years  [00:20:13] Sarah: because I used to work in a casino and that's how they would communicate in slot machines.  [00:20:20] Jason: Yeah, alright. [00:20:21] Sarah: But now it's also handy being a pilot.  [00:20:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:24] Sarah: Alright, so if that sounds good, I think it sounds really great. Because I know a lot of property managers struggle with bookkeeping, and that's usually not something that's fun for property managers. It's definitely necessary, but it, oh man, it's not fun, and it's really draining. [00:20:38] Sarah: So if you can find someone that's great at what they do, and you can allow them to handle that, and just kind of check in and make sure things are going well, then, whoo, man, life gets a lot easier.  [00:20:51] Jason: Yeah if you're not paying attention to the finances or the financial health of your business or your accounting You're probably getting stolen from it's just I've seen it happen so many times. [00:21:01] Jason: So get a great bookkeeper. Yeah have people you trust to take care of that. Okay.  [00:21:07] Sarah: So speaking of finances, let's talk a little bit about what kind of goes into an event. So for example, we have our DoorGrow Live coming up in May this year. So we have been working on this event now since, so our last one was in May, and then I think we started working on the new one in like July, June or July. [00:21:31] Sarah: So things that have to kind of happen just to be able to have the space, obviously, you have to look into venues, you have to, you know, look at the space, make sure it's going to work for the size of your group, which means you kind of have to estimate a little bit what it's going to look like, and then make sure that the room can. [00:21:48] Sarah: fit more or less if needed.  [00:21:51] Jason: You've got to negotiate with the hotel.  [00:21:53] Sarah: Yep. You've got to negotiate what the rates would be. You know, am I paying for the space or am I paying for the room block and the food? Because there's different ways to do it. So you've got to figure out, you know, how many rooms in the room block do I need? [00:22:09] Sarah: Because if you overestimate that, if you go, "Hey, I think I'm going to have a thousand people come" and 100 people come, it is not going to be a good time for you because every room in the room block that is not sold, you are financially on the hook for. So you get to pay for that. And it's like, it's a certain number of nights. [00:22:28] Sarah: So it's not even so much how many rooms it's, how many nights someone will book. So you want to track that along the way. And then you want to start looking at a lot of the tactical things that go into it, like, well, who is going to speak at the event? So you want to start looking at speakers and when you're looking at speakers, you start to think about, you know, who would our audience resonate with and what kind of value would they provide? [00:22:55] Sarah: And, you know, is this strategic and tactical stuff or is this like mindset and empowerment stuff? Because you kind of want to get a mix of both at each event because everyone who comes to an event They're looking for a different thing. So it's really impossible to satisfy everybody make sure everybody, you know is super happy with everything sometimes people say, "oh, I wish there was more of this and oh, I wish there was more of that," but you kind of have to do like this balance and mix to make sure that everybody gets something out of it. [00:23:25] Sarah: And that they have a great experience. You also want to build a little bit of fun into it. So that it's not just, "hey, show up to this conference, sit down, learn something, take some notes and walk out of the room." You know, we've been to events like that before. Where it's like, "okay, that was a lot. But also, man, it would have been really cool to like, do something fun and you know connect with people," so you want to you know start to build in some time so that people can connect with other people, you know, so are you going to do a mixer? [00:23:52] Sarah: Are you going to do some sort of networking event? You know, are you going to you know go do kind of some fun event before like the night before? Are you going to, you know, send them off to lunch together? What is that going to look like? So that they can really connect with each other especially when you've got a room full of people who are in the same sector, in the same industry, there's so much knowledge in that room. [00:24:15] Sarah: So just talking to other people in the room is really valuable and making connections. So there's got to be some room for that as well. And then you want to think about well, are we going to have any vendors or sponsors? Yeah, and are those vendors or sponsors people that have services that are valuable and that we trust? Because there have also been times where, you know, someone had wanted to sponsor us and we did not want them to be a sponsor. [00:24:43] Sarah: Because if they don't provide a great service, you know, can you throw some money and be in the room? Yeah, but if it's not the right person to be in the room, then that matters. That matters a lot. So we have turned down money. We've turned down sponsorships. So then you also have to think about all of the tactical things. [00:25:05] Sarah: Well, you know, am I doing round tables? Am I doing classroom style? Are we doing full circles? Are we doing semi circles? Like what is the front of the room? And what's the back of the room? And where are the vendors going to be? And what doors do people walk in and out of? And as soon as they walk in, what is the first thing that they see? [00:25:20] Sarah: In what direction do we want to go in? And are they crossing over our equipment? Is somebody going to trip and fall on all the 10,000 chords that we have like taped down and. Then you have to also think about things like your AV. So does the room have internet? Is there power in the room? And I know that seems like a silly question to ask, but guess what? [00:25:40] Sarah: Sometimes they charge you for power. So you would think, hey, there's power in the room, obviously, because like it's at a hotel. They obviously have electricity. Yeah, but do you have to pay for it?  [00:25:49] Jason: Yeah, AV is expensive. Like we rented it initially and it was so costly.  [00:25:54] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:25:54] Jason: For the price you could rent it for it made sense to just buy it. [00:25:58] Sarah: To buy it.  [00:25:59] Jason: And so we eventually bought all our own equipment, but that means now we have to set it up and we have to figure it out. And so, yeah, so there's always a challenge.  [00:26:08] Sarah: Before the actual conference, like before anybody even steps foot like on property, Jason and I and several members of our team are there setting things up. [00:26:18] Jason: Sometimes my kids. Yeah,  [00:26:19] Sarah: sometimes the kids, sometimes an assistant, sometimes Madi comes on in.  [00:26:22] Jason: We're hooking up lights, we're plugging in audio equipment.  [00:26:25] Sarah: So we like pack everything up in Jason's SUV. We drive it over, we unload it. I'm doing this in stilettos, mind you, because I'm a stubborn  [00:26:33] Jason: You do everything in stilettos. [00:26:33] Sarah: Yeah, that's what I am. Right, so we like, we get there, we unpack it, we have to set it all up. You know, we're making sure that, like, all the lights are working, a sound system has to work, because there's no point in having a microphone if it's not going to work. There's always technical errors, and I'm horrible with technology, so Jason is our tech person, and he is the only tech person that we have. [00:26:54] Sarah: So he gets to figure everything out. And then it's like, you know, is the screen working? And can people see it? And is the laptop connecting to the screen? And is it blurry or is it too big or too far? Like there's always these weird little issues that happen and I don't know how to solve any of them. [00:27:10] Sarah: Yeah, so Jason knows how to do that. And then there's the other things like well. What about swag? And you know, are we doing a registration table and who's going to be there to, you know, check people in and make sure they know what to do and they know where to go? And, you know, is there like just kind of first come first serve seating? [00:27:27] Sarah: Or is there like a separate section for, you know, special clients or VIP clients or speakers or the team? And there's also things like, "Oh, well what about name badges?" You know, are we doing, like, are we doing name badges? Are we, you know, making sure that everybody kind of knows who everybody else is? Is there anything special or is it just like a bunch of people walking into a room and then hopefully they figure out that they're in the right room? Like there's so much that goes into it and then there's the scheduling. So well, you know, who's going to go in what order, what day and time are certain speakers available? Because just because they commit to an event doesn't mean, "oh, I can speak at any point during the event." [00:28:11] Sarah: So, you know, it's putting the agenda together and how long do you give them for lunch and where are they going for lunch? And are we doing lunch? Are we, you know, letting them facilitate it on their own? Are we doing breaks? How do we get them back from breaks? Are we, it's crazy. Like it's so, there's so much. [00:28:28] Jason: If you give people a break at an event, it's like 30 minutes of downtime. Oh yeah. It's really hard to get people to like get to the next thing or come back right away. And they all start talking to each other, which is cool. They want to network. Yeah, so getting people back from lunch.  [00:28:43] Sarah: Yes, absolutely. Yes. [00:28:45] Sarah: And then it's, you know, who kicks off the event? Who opens it? Who closes it? Who's going after lunch? Because we all know most people, what happens to them after lunch? They're tired. I'm fine. But a lot of people, they're tired after lunch. So you can't have a, you know, more mundane or quiet or low energy speaker after lunch. [00:29:06] Sarah: You just can't. Because you'll lose everybody. So there's a lot that goes into the scheduling as well. And then there's things like, you know, who's going to MC it? Who's making announcements? Who's making sure that everybody knows where to be? And what time? And what to do and when to come back? And who's doing the intros for speakers? [00:29:26] Sarah: Are you doing music for every speaker that comes up? If so, like, are they picking it? Are you picking it? What happens? Like there is so so so much that goes into it, and then after you like run the event then you got to break it all down if it's your equipment. Yeah, so then it's like pack it all up and put it away and make sure nothing gets damaged or lost and repack the car and unload it again, and like there is so much that goes Into it. [00:29:53] Sarah: And I would say at this point, it's funny because Jason now can show up to DoorGrow Live and nine out of 10 times, he has no idea what's going to happen or when.  [00:30:05] Sarah: I love it.  [00:30:06] Sarah: I just call him up on stage and he's like, oh, okay, because, and I'm like, my team handle most of it. Talking on this go.  [00:30:12] Jason: Right now. I still just have to make sure the tech stuff all works. [00:30:15] Jason: But yeah, other than that, yeah, I don't. I don't have to do as much which is nice, but because it's stressful enough. It's stressful enough So yeah, so it's a lot. There's a lot that goes into it, but it's been worth it to have you know to see people's lives change to see people impacted. We've noticed there's some sort of magic that happens that when people come to something in person with us even if they've been a client for years, they start to get different results. [00:30:40] Jason: They start to see things differently. They start to absorb all of our content, our information, our training material, our ideas more effectively. Everything just magnifies. There's something about in person. You can't get the same sort of benefit in your business. If you think, "all I need to do is read books and watch videos and show up to zoom calls to grow my business. [00:31:04] Jason: Look, there's a lot of benefits in all of those things. I do all those things, but we still go to in person things. There's something different about in person that I don't know if it's the energy of being in the same space as the people you're learning from. If it's the group energy and that group mind that makes you able to like learn and faster. [00:31:23] Jason: There's, but there's some, I don't know if maybe there's some quantum physical magic, magical stuff, but there's something different about it in person. It's happened too many times for me to like believe otherwise or to dismiss it. I've had too many clients that I've been working with for years, go to their first in person thing with us, and then they have some breakthrough. And I'm like what? And they tell me about it, and I'm like, "I've been teaching you that for years!" Like "I know but like but it's just hit differently." [00:31:51] Jason: Yeah, "I just got it." [00:31:52] Sarah: It hits different. It feels different and you just absorb things. [00:31:57] Jason: And because we've seen this pattern, we've seen this pattern, we now make it part of our onboarding of every new client to come hang out with Sarah and I in person for a one day with usually a small cohort and like, and just get some things figured out and dialed in their business. [00:32:14] Jason: And that's been magic for our business. Like it's been magic for our clients, magic for us. So we give them that in person experience early on. And then DoorGrow Live allows them to connect with others, which is there's just something different about the people at DoorGrow. The property managers at DoorGrow are different. [00:32:30] Jason: I've been to a lot of conferences. A lot. Like in various industries, but especially in property management. And there's something different about the people that we attract and the clients that we attract. They're growth minded, they're positive active in mentalities, which means they're not like the skeptical, negative Nancy's that are grumpy about the industry and the business. [00:32:51] Jason: That there's this positive growth minded, healthier sort of personality that we attract at DoorGrow. And maybe that says a little bit about who we are, because that's what I tried to be. But we attract amazing people and the connections people make, when you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and a share a business model, like it really helps you grow. [00:33:15] Jason: Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to or that you're most influenced by. So look at those property managers if you've got coaches or mentors, and they're not people that you really like that maybe you think they're smart, but you don't really want to be more like them, then maybe you're around the wrong people. [00:33:34] Jason: Maybe you have the wrong coach, and I'm not the coach for everybody. Sarah's not the coach for everybody. But you should have a coach. Otherwise, you're selling yourself short if you're not accountable to anybody, you're definitely getting less results than you could or should be so come to DoorGrow Live come check us out. This DoorGrow Live, [00:33:52] Jason: I want to open our playbooks up if Sarah lets me. I want to just reveal some really amazing stuff that only our clients get to see because I want to show anyone that shows up that's not part of our DoorGrow ecosystem. Our clients know the magic's there. We have more case studies or testimonials than anyone else in the industry, but if you're not a DoorGrow client, and you want to come to DoorGrow Live I'm going to give you some gifts for sure, some magic. We're going to make some significant changes in your business. They're going to help you make a lot more money a lot more easily and keep a lot more of your profit and so come hang out with us. [00:34:29] Jason: You're not going to be disappointed for sure So there you go.  [00:34:33] Sarah: Yeah. This event we've got some really awesome things planned. We can't let too much out of the bag at this point. But we always have some really great things planned and every event we do, like we always learn from it. [00:34:46] Sarah: And we always do like a little team meeting afterwards and we get feedback from people. We're always looking to make it better and better. And this year is absolutely no exception to that. So the things that we have planned for this year, like I know that if you come to this event, it will change your business and it will change your life. [00:35:12] Sarah: And I know that's a really bold statement and we're ready to back it.  [00:35:16] Jason: Yeah. And maybe that could be a later podcast episode as we get closer to the event. But we can tell you a little bit more about what's going to be happening there, but hopefully this was interesting to get behind the scenes at all that goes into DoorGrow Live and we meet on this you know, we're talking about it weekly, monthly in our planning meetings, like and quarterly. [00:35:37] Jason: And so, and that's it for today's episode. So if you are interested in that, go check it out at DoorGrowLive.Com and get your tickets and get things booked and get ready to come have an amazing experience in May at DoorGrow Live. So, and until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone. 

Join host Carol Pankow in this thought-provoking episode of Manager Minute as she sits down with VR fiscal powerhouses Katie Marchesano, Chris Merritt, Allison Flanagan, and Sarah Clardy. Together, they unpack the pressing fiscal issues shaping the vocational rehabilitation (VR) landscape, including: ·  Navigating fiscal forecasting challenges · Addressing technology gaps · Strengthening collaboration between program and fiscal teams The conversation highlights the vital role of policies, training, and institutional knowledge in sustaining VR programs while anticipating future shifts, such as technological advancements, fiscal constraints, and potential WIOA reauthorization. Don't miss this episode, packed with actionable insights and expert reflections to keep VR programs thriving!   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music} Katie: I'm really excited for that tool to be shared, and I think it's going to be a really helpful tool for the agencies.   Carol: This job takes constant attention to detail in what is happening. It is always going to be work.   Chris: More people are going to be reaching out asking for fiscal forecasting and understanding how to look at this program in the future.   Allison: One of the things that pops in my mind that might happen over the next three years is reauthorization of WIOA.   Sarah: I think we're going to see some new resources, hopefully in the technology world develop, that will assist our agencies so that their focus can remain on the customers where it belongs.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today are my colleagues Katie Marchesano, Chris Merritt, Allison Flanagan and Sarah Clardy. So this might be a little bit of calamity for our listeners, but we're going to do it. So how y'all doing today?   Sarah: Great   Chris: Great.   Allison: Good.   Katie: Wonderful.   Carol: Awesome to hear it. Well, we have had quite a journey on the QM for the past four years. The fiscal focus was a new aspect of the grant, and we are so grateful to then Commissioner Mark Schultz for realizing that TA in this area was an essential element to the work. And since we're in this final year of the grant, we wanted to have a chance to visit together, share our insights with the listeners into the whole fiscal picture across the VR program, and discuss our perceptions and perspectives. So buckle up, folks, and we're going to dig in. So I want to start with how you each found your way to VR. And I'm going to start with Chris to talk about your journey into VR.   Chris: Well thanks, Carol. Mine's a little bit different than most people. I did not start in VR. I have a very different background. All fiscal for the most part. But I came to work at a fiscal state unit and learned about VR there. Loved it, loved it, loved it. And then was kind of asked to be part of this Ta team and couldn't say no because it's just an incredible program and it's a little complicated. So being able to help the states understand it better is what brought me to this team.   Carol: Well, not you, and you're being modest now. Tell them about like a little bit more of your background because you have an interesting educational background and all of that.   Chris: Yeah, I do. So I'm an environmental engineer by trade. Worked in that field for a while. Learned that sampling sludge was not a cool thing to be doing. So went to work for a small business that was just starting on Department of Defense World. Loved all the fiscal part of that. Went back to school and got my MBA and have been doing fiscal stuff ever since. So yeah, it's a long road that brought me here, but I'm happy I took it.   Carol: Yeah, we're glad you're here. How about you, Miss Allison?   Allison: Well, it's kind of hard to believe that I have over 30 years in this VR journey, and it actually started out in the field as a VR technician, and I just fell in love with the mission and purpose of VR. So I quickly changed my direction to be a VR counselor, and then that evolved to other promotions and positions throughout the year, where I ended up being director of both Kentucky Blind Agency and then moved to Florida as the General Agency Director. And when the VR TKM opportunity came about, I was ready for a change, especially after being a director through the pandemic and through the implementation of WIOA. I was looking forward to just a new opportunity, new learning areas, so this has been a great jump for me. I've enjoyed it very much.   Carol: Why don't you tell them too about your other gig with NRLI a little bit. We'll make a plug there.   Allison: Yeah. So part of the VRTAC-QM is the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute through San Diego State University. I have the honor of continuing Fred McFarland's legacy, who began this program about 25 years ago. And it is a program that is building the future leaders in the vocational rehabilitation field. And it's been a joy to see these leaders be promoted throughout their careers. Being stepping up, having an interest at that national level, the issues that are facing VR. So it is definitely a part of my job with QM that I hold near and dear to my heart.   Carol: Yeah, it's good stuff, I love it NRLI of our favorite things to participate in when we get to do training. So Katie, over to you next.   Katie: Well, my journey with VR started when my brother was receiving VR services, and he actually is who inspired me to go and get my bachelor's degree in psychology and work in social services. That led me to Department of Workforce Services, where I spent 13 years in various roles and capacities, which ultimately led me back to VR.   Carol: Awesome sauce. And last but not least, Sarah Clardy.   Sarah: So I started out about 24 years ago out of college. I was working in banking full time and going to school full time, and had an opportunity to come on with a state and Missouri vocational rehabilitation, had an opening for an assistant director of accounting and procurement. They had some systems and processes that were a little out of whack and needed some help with reorganizing pretty much the whole accounting structure. So I came over at that time and started in with Missouri, and then spent 20 years there and got to spend half of that time in the field directly with our field staff and counselors and really take this program to heart, and then had an opportunity four years ago to join the VRTAC-QM. I had said for a long time we needed technical assistance in the fiscal realm for years and years. I was thrilled that Mark Schultz saw the vision and made it happen.   Carol: Good stuff. Well, now we're going to enter the danger zone because I have some questions for you all. Not exactly sure how this is going to go, but we are going to do our best. So y'all jump in when you want. So what has been your biggest realization or aha moment since you started with the QM. And Allison, I'm going to have you kick us off and then other folks can jump in.   Allison: Honestly, Carol, there's been a lot of those aha moments for me over the last, you know, almost three years with the Technical Assistance Center since my experience in VR started in the field and I was a counselor, kind of the program side is where my comfort level is or my knowledge and experience. So when I joined the fiscal team there, definitely there was a lot of those aha moments, mainly a lot of the things that I did not know or did not realize even as a director when I came over. So one of those aha's is the director. Even though I received these beautiful monthly budget reports for my fiscal staff, even though I had a leadership team that we reviewed budgets with, understanding the fiscal requirements in and out, the uniform grant guidance and all the regulations. And, EDGAR, all of that, I think, is critical for any director or their leadership team to have knowledge of. And that was definitely one of my aha moments. And one of those things I go back, wow, if I could go back and be a director, I would be a lot smarter after being on the technical assistance side. And like I said, there's been a lot of those aha moments. I could share tons of them, but a couple other ones that jump out is just that critical need for that program side of the House and the fiscal side of the House, to always be communicating and always making sure they're checking with each other. On whether it's a new implementation, whether it's expenses, contracts, doesn't matter. There needs to be that collaboration happening at that level. And then probably the technology challenges is another one of those constant aha moments in the year that we're in and how reliant we are on technology. I am still amazed that there is not technology out there that will do what VR needs it to do, right off the shelf.   Carol: Amen, sister. You said it all. No, but I'm sure there's people that want to say some more.   Chris: I found it interesting when I came over that not every single, not a single state has it right. I thought that there would be more that are fully knowledgeable and are running with it and doing all the great things they are doing, the great things. They just don't have 100% right.   Carol: You are making me laugh with this because I'm just going to say I have to jump in on that. Sarah and I right away, in the beginning, anytime we had met with RSA we learned something new, we're like, uh, I gotta call back to Minnesota, tell them, because we realized, like, hey, we thought we were sort of doing it right, but we all realized things. We went, uh, yeah, we had a little slight misstep on that.   Katie: I would agree with that. Like, we came from a state that was in an intensive agreement. And, you know, I was like, man, we really got it wrong. But then, you know, it's a huge learning curve and there's a lot of people that are putting in their best effort, and they're still just a few things that aren't quite right.   Chris: Absolutely.   Katie: Another realization that I had was we have this table of contents for a grant management manual that we send out to agencies. And when I received it in Wyoming, I was intimidated by all the things that needed to be included. But my aha moment was when you break that down into individual items and you really look at it, it's things that are already in place, the policies and procedures that you're already working on. It's just finding a way to get that on paper and put it into some sort of policy and procedure and internal control. So realizing that states have the capacity to do that, just figuring out how was an aha moment for me.   Sarah: You know, when I came in, I was thinking back to 2017 and RSA came out with guidance on, I'm going to say it, Period of Performance. And it dominated our whole agency for a good nine months, trying to understand the guidance, looking at systems. We had to do a whole overhaul with the way we looked at obligations, just we spent a massive amount of time and effort to right size our systems, internal controls and all of that because prior to performance sets the beat for all of financial within a VR program. So coming into the QM, I really assumed that more agencies knew of Period of Performance and had gone through at least similar steps, or at least had internal conversations. And what I found was completely the opposite. Somehow a lot of folks missed the memo and that work hadn't been done. And of course, we've been running Fred Flintstone style, trying to help agencies get up to snuff. So that's the piece. I think that's been the most interesting. I think for me.   Carol: I think along that same vein for me was really that realization states are more different than I thought because I figured we all had the same information. We all kind of operated sort of the same. You might have your own internal systems, but I remember, Sarah, you and I talking that first year just going like, oh my gosh, everybody is organized so completely differently. They approach their work so completely differently. There isn't just one size fits all. Like, hey, you should do it this way. And like, everybody can do that. Uh uh, it is like having an IPE for how the fiscal is managed. Individualized we need to give very individualized TA. So what do you guys view as the number one challenge facing our programs nationwide? And Sarah, I'm going to have you start us with that.   Sarah: Okay? I'm going to say it I think Allison said it earlier. We are lacking in the technology space. I think a couple of things we have, the pendulum has swung to the other direction and before it was spend, spend, spend, a lot of agencies made adjustments so that they were increasing their spending. The large carryover balances weren't so large. Now my concern is how are we looking at our finances to see if we can still sustain that. And in order to get accurate projections and for leadership teams to have the conversations about where they stand financially, we have to have technology systems in place that are reliable, are tracking period of performance, can provide those fiscal calculations in terms of where we stand on all of the different requirements, so that we have a constant pulse on where do we stand as an agency. And I liken it to being in private industry and a CEO knowing at all times how much does it cost to make the widget? How many widgets are we making and what amount of time? All of those kinds of things. And I feel like in that space right now, we have agencies that are trying to figure that out, and we have some that are in a very delicate position, and it can cause a lot of catastrophe and crisis if that's not solidified. So really, it goes back to having reliable technology that will take care of all of that. And that includes our CMS, our Case Management Systems space. A lot of our vendors are struggling in that Period of Performance area, and we're not there yet. We have a lot more work to do.   Carol: Well, it's like a $4 billion industry, you know, and I feel like we're still using an abacus or something in some cases for tracking the money. It is the most insane thing I have ever seen.   Allison: And, you know, related to that technology challenge, though, is knowing that, that challenge is there, knowing that the technology is not correct. I think what adds to the complexity of that is the fiscal staff or the just the staff within the VR agency. They lack the fiscal knowledge enough to know if their system is working correctly or not, or know how to go in and make the adaptations needed to assist them. And that's a challenge within itself.   Chris: And I will piggyback right on that, because the thing I think that we've struggled with is we have lost so much institutional knowledge that people don't stay in jobs like they used to. And so if these policies and procedures are not written down, you get new people coming in, they don't know what they don't know. And if the technology is not working right, they don't know that that's not something that they can handle. So it's a lack of that long time knowledge that used to be in this program.   Katie: Yeah, Chris, that is exactly where I was going as well, is the loss of staff and institutional knowledge is huge, and it really highlights the importance of getting policies and procedures in place and not waiting till that person has their foot out the door and is ready to head out to make sure that you're getting that in writing. You know, succession planning and really building up success in the team.   Carol: I think for me, one of the things I see, because I love that whole organizational structure and non-delegable responsibilities, I love that area. I think one of the biggest challenges facing the program is the whole shift in how things are organized between if you're in a designated state unit within a designated state agency, and that centralization we have seen of all the fiscal functions along with IT and HR and all of it, but I feel like VR has lost control. And so as these services are centralized, and not that they can't be, but that they get centralized to a point that the VR program has lost complete input control direction. I mean, you've got directors being told you can't spend anything over $5. It has to go through 40 layers. You can't hire anybody. Staff cannot travel to go see customers like all of that. If we can't fix this structure of how things are put into play in each of these states, I really see kind of the demise of the program. As we see things get buried, the program gets buried down within these big agencies. The lack of control ends up leading to problems with them and being able to carry out the mission. And it's really hard to get a handle on that. And I know Congress has given, you know, this leeway so that states can organize like they want. But boy, the way they're organized right now, it's pretty tough.   Allison: It's a double edged sword when you think about it, because you're probably like me Carol, as former directors, we wanted more money going into the consumer services. We wanted it going to support our customers. We wanted to find ways to reduce any kind of administrative type expenses so that that money can go there when the centralized functions were really being pushed at the state levels. In my mind at first, I will say this, at first I saw, yes, this is a benefit because we're going to have these shared services, we're going to be able to spend more of our funds on our customers. And I still somewhat agree with that approach because it is a cost savings. But what has to happen, though, is that balance, what you talked about, the balance where VR still has control over the decisions or they are included in those decisions and the restrictions that have been put in place has to be lifted. But I do see the benefits of those shared services as long as the structure gets set up right.   Carol: Right. And that's been few and far between.   Allison: That needs a national model.   Carol: It does. And that's been a problem. I mean, if there's anything anyone can work on, little congressional assistance in that or whatever, you know, getting some of that rewritten, how that looks.   Sarah: Well, and I came from an agency that was able to retain an entire unit of 13-ish folks when all of those consolidations were occurring because within our Department of Education, our commissioner understood the complexities of our award and knew that if all of those positions rolled up to a department level, they weren't going to be able to support the program and were able to coordinate with our state leadership. And it served the program very, very well. So I think we have a little bit to be desired still in that space to get agencies the support that they need 100%.   Carol: So what has been your favorite thing to work on or accomplishment in your role? And Katie, I'm going to kick that to you to start us off.   Katie: Well, I've really enjoyed my role here with the QM. There's a lot of things that I enjoy, but the task that I've enjoyed the most is really having the ability to dig into the new uniform grant guidance that went into effect October 1st of 2020. For one of the things that I did while doing that was I took the old uniform grant guidance and the new ones and did a side by side where all of the things that were taken out were redlined and all of the things that were added were highlighted, and I'm really excited for that tool to be shared with the agencies right now. That's with RSA to get the stamp of approval, but I've used that tool already to help update all of our things on the website and all the tools that we're sharing with everyone, and I think it's going to be a really helpful tool for the agencies.   Carol: I love that tool, Katie, so much because even when we were down doing to last week and some of the just the nuance pieces that came out, when you're reading it and you go, okay, that language did change. Like there is a slightly nuanced variance to this that I hadn't completely grasped until you see it in the red and the yellow, and it all highlighted up. I mean, it was pretty nice.   Katie: Yeah, they did a lot of plain language changes, which is really evident when you look at the side by side.   Chris: I'll jump in here and tell you what my favorite thing is. And it's when we were working with a state intensively and, you know, we've been working with them for a long time, and you get to know them really well and you understand their environment and how things work, and they come to you and say something really profound, like, I was watching this training the other day and they got this wrong, and they got this wrong and they got this wrong. It is like a proud parent moment. When you go, they understand what the program is supposed to be doing, and they understand when other people not necessarily are getting it wrong, but mostly they're able to recognize what's not absolutely correct. And it just makes you feel like, oh, we have come so far.   Carol: It's like fly, little bird, you're flying.   Chris: Yes.   Allison: That's probably one of my favorite parts too, Chris, is the state work that we've done and how you get to know these state people. There's so many amazing VR staff across the country, and their hearts are all in the right place, and they want to do good. That's what I've enjoyed is getting to know these people better, broadening my network as well because I learn from them. But just being that resource I do like, I'm one of those weird people that likes digging into the laws and regs and finding where is that gray, vague area that we can interpret a little better. So part of the TA work, you know, really digging into some of the laws and some regulatory guidance I've enjoyed as well.   Carol: I have a story I love to share. I was having a breakdown probably a year ago, Sarah's laughing at me, I had a breakdown. You know, you're providing TA to state you're so ingrained with them, especially when they have a corrective action plan, you feel like you're part of them. I always say we, you know, when we're talking because I feel like I'm part of their team and we've been working on a particular piece of it, and nothing that we sent in was anything RSA wanted. All I knew was that this was not what they wanted, but we couldn't exactly figure out what they wanted. And it was driving me crazy. And I'd called Sarah and I said, I think I have to quit being a TA provider because I suck at this. I'm not able to help them. I haven't been able to figure this out. I am done, and I went to bed that night. I actually was on site with another state and I woke up at two in the morning and I do my best thinking as I'm sleeping. It's so weird. I've done it my whole career. I wake up in the middle of the night and have an idea. I woke up at two in the morning. I'm like, oh, I know what they're talking about. And I got up and I typed, I typed for like three hours and then got up for the day and got ready for the other state. But exactly what was needed was that, I mean, when we ended up meeting with the state and then they met with RSA, and that was the thing. It was the thing that was needed to get accomplished. And I felt super proud that we could kind of like, figure it out. It took a while. I almost quit, but, we got there in the end.   Sarah: You know, being in the final year of the grant, everybody's asking the question, what comes next? And of course we don't know what comes next. But I think my favorite part is looking back and building the relationships. So kind of touching on what all of you all have said. Relationships are important to me. Building the trust we are learning alongside of them just like they are. I always say there's no top of the mountain that any of us are ever going to reach when we've arrived. It's a daily learning process, but the program financially is so complex and trying to take those federal requirements And each of the state's requirements, which we've acknowledged already are all different, and bring that together in the center. And there's never been a resource to help agencies get down in the weeds, look at their systems, look at their processes, and help them navigate through that. And so just having something to offer and having directors send an SOS text at 9:00 at night, or we've talked to directors who have been in tears or excited because something really great has happened, and they want to share the success. It's all of that. Just being able to provide that valuable resource and support them along the way has been very rewarding for me. I know, and you all, but especially I think for the States.   Carol: So if you had a crystal ball, what would you predict regarding the financial state of the VR program over the next three years? And Chris, you get to start us on that lovely prediction.   Chris: Okay. Well, since I don't have a crystal ball, I think Sarah touched on this a little bit earlier. So for several years, the message from RSA and from Congress has been to spend, spend, spend. And so there's been a lot of changes in all the agencies to be able to spend more, to spend quicker, to do everything quicker and faster. And I think the spending is catching up. And I think that it might go too far. Like Sarah mentioned, the pendulum is going the other way, and I don't think the fiscal forecasting is robust enough to be able to predict when it's going to get hard. And since most directors do not come from a fiscal background, most directors come with the VR heart that you know is what a counselor has, paying attention to that. Fiscal forecasting is going to be a critical, critical point. And I know that most states are not doing it right. So that's my prediction. More people are going to be reaching out asking for fiscal forecasting and understanding how to look at this program in the future.   Sarah: And I think to tack on to that, I think we're going to see new technology and new resources emerge that will assist our agencies. Again, like Carol said earlier, some days it feels like we have our big chief tablet out and we're still doing things old school. And I think the only direction to go is up. So I think we're going to see some new resources, hopefully in the technology world develop, that will assist our agencies so that their focus can remain on the customers where it belongs.   Allison: And I would have to say ditto to both of that, especially the fiscal forecasting and the pendulum swinging the other way. And a lot of states considering order selection or going into order selection. But one of the things that pops in my mind that might happen over the next three years is reauthorization of WIOA. I know the discussions are happening with Congress right now, and if that implementation happens, you know, what's it going to look like? Because ten years ago when WIOA was passed, it was a huge impact on VR. And it still is. I mean, we're still challenged with trying to get everything implemented, trying to spend the minimum of our 15% on Pre-ETS. There's just so many things that we're still working on through. So very interested to see where that's going to go.   Carol: And I definitely think like nothing ever stays the same. So we always think like we're going to get to the place and it's just going to be even flow, like it's all going to be cool. We don't really have to pay a lot of attention, and I don't think that's ever going to be the state of the VR program. Like it's going to constantly need people paying attention. Whether the pendulum is one way and we have loads of money or it's the other way and we have no money now, like we have to somehow try to like even this out with the fiscal forecasting and all the things you're doing. But if you think you're going to get to the place where like, oh, I've reached it, Nirvana, it's all great. That's never going to be like this job takes constant attention to detail and what is happening. And so it is always going to be work. It's going to take a lot of effort from a lot of people. And as all the new people keep coming and going, figuring that out for the team so that you can sustain the practices and things that you have that help you to understand what's going on.   Katie: Yeah, I would just agree with everything that everyone already said. One of the big pushes that was brought up at CSAVR, is technology, and I think it is going to be interesting to see what kind of technology is introduced in the next three years that's going to help assist our programs.   Carol: So what is your best piece of advice for our listeners? And I'll let anybody open that one up.   Allison: I'm going to say you need to have a deep bench of leaders who are adverse in the financial requirements, maybe incorporating fiscal training for all staff on an annual basis, whether that's just refreshers or making sure new folks being hired understand all the requirements. But fiscal needs to be part of your ongoing training with staff. It's just critical.   Carol: I'd say, for directors coming in, I know the tendency is to want to be like, I have to know everything. I'm the director, I need to know all things. And even when you don't know the things, you pretend, you know the things. Don't pretend you know the things you don't know. Like you need to be humble and figure it out and learn and be willing to learn. For a lot of folks that are growing up in the VR system, having that sort of physical part of your brain, it may not be completely there. You're like, I went into VR because I didn't want to do math, and now you're in charge of, you know, $300 million in a program. And so you've got to just continue to learn and chip away and figure out how you can gain that really strong understanding, because you cannot just hand that off to some other group and think someone's managing that for you, because the buck really does stop with you in the end. As far as the responsibility over the control and allocation of the VR funds. So please keep learning, as Allison said, and be open and be humble when you don't know things and ask.   Sarah: There's a song by the Beatles called With a Little Help from My Friends. Everybody needs a Little help from time to time. And I know over the years we've worked with most of the agencies, but there are some that we haven't, and I've always assumed they're good. They don't need us. They're fine. It's not always necessarily the case. So acknowledging if I pick up a phone and call a peer or a fellow director, or hopefully the TAC continued to exist beyond this grant cycle. Reaching out and asking for help is okay, and it's encouraged.   Katie: Yeah, mine will be through the lens of policy and procedure. That's where I keep hitting. That's my passion on this QM team. We have a ton of resources available, and if you're struggling, you're looking at that table of contents saying, I can't do this. Reach out, give us a call. We can help you with prompting questions just to get the thought process going. And you can do it. It's going to be okay.   Chris: Ok, my piece of advice is to make connections. And I think everybody has kind of said that in their own way. But make those connections so that you have people you can reach out to and ask questions of whether it's us at the TA center, other states, other fiscal people. You need to be able to ask, how do you do this? What do you think of this idea that I have? How would you handle this? I mean, being able to have that connection and that type of conversation is critical 100%.   Carol: Well, I sure appreciate you all. And while we're still around, all our listeners can still connect with us. And we do have a QM fiscal email address. I will spell out for you. It is QM f I s c a l at v r t a c-qm.org. So qmfiscal@vrtac-qm.org. So please do reach out. We still are around for a little while and we can be your phone a friend. So thanks for joining me today guys I really appreciate it.   Chris: Thank you Carol. This was great.   Allison: Thanks for having Us.   Sarah: Thank you.   Katie: Thanks.   {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Many of our property management business owner clients are focused on hiring or restructuring their teams right now. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the most important parts of the hiring process and offer a little bit of “tough love.” You'll Learn [04:39] 1. Finding the right person for the role [11:04] 2. The importance of training your new hire [24:41] 3. Implementing accountability for your team [30:20] Review: what does the initial training period look like? Tweetables “We need to be clear on what results we're expecting.” “Any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes.” “You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.” “If you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.  [00:00:09] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently than you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners, and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:11] Sarah: All right. [00:01:11] Let's do it. Before we do anything, we have an announcement for those of you that have not yet heard. Our foster dog Hans has been officially adopted. So we didn't do a podcast since he was adopted. So this is our first podcast that we don't have Hans kind of hanging out in the background. And I miss his little face, but he has an amazing family. [00:01:32] Jason: I miss Hans. I don't- [00:01:35] Sarah: love him so much.  [00:01:37] Jason: I don't miss him chewing my stuff in my office, but I do miss his little face as well. All right. Yes. Yeah, so he's adopted All right So the topic today and if you want to check that out, you can go to doorgrow.Com right at the top. There's dogs click on that see all our stories. Maynard got adopted. [00:01:55] Sarah: Maynard is adopted. Yeah, he now lives in California.  [00:01:59] Jason: This dog was like on death's door multiple times. Well, many times. Now he's living it up with a wealthy dude.  [00:02:06] Sarah: Who just fell in love with him.  [00:02:07] Jason: Guy in California.  [00:02:08] Sarah: Maynard just captured his heart, loved him so much and wanted to provide him an amazing life, so. [00:02:15] Jason: He's got a new name.  [00:02:16] Sarah: He's Bodhi.  [00:02:17] Jason: Bodhi.  [00:02:18] Sarah: Bodhi. So he's now driving around in a convertible in California. That's one of the pictures they put on there. Oh!  [00:02:25] Jason: All right. So  [00:02:25] Sarah: Maynard has a great life now, too.  [00:02:27] Jason: So you can check that out at doorgrow.com/dogs. All right. So our topic today that we're going to be chatting about you said that it came up a few times in You know this week with some of our clients dealing with some new team members We've got we're doing helping a lot of people with hiring right now. [00:02:45] Sarah: Oh my goodness so many. I built so many DoorGrow Hiring accounts in the last week.  [00:02:49] Jason: Yeah, so we're setting up this hiring mechanism and machine and system so that people can have some consistently good hires. But that brings us to kind of the next challenge. So what have you been hearing?  [00:03:00] Sarah: Okay, so one client asked me, he's about to hire. [00:03:05] He's going through the hiring process. So he doesn't have anybody lined up yet, but he's It's about to start this whole process. And he had asked me, "Hey, what about expectations for when they start when they come on?" And specifically this is a BDM. The second instance of this happening this week is a client who has already hired and his BDM is now about 60 days in. [00:03:31] And he sent me a message yesterday and he said, "Hey, listen, I really need to talk with you before the end of the month. I need to make a decision on my team." So I said, okay, let's. Let's figure out what's going on? And he said "yeah, I'm kind of pissed because my BDM is like 60 days in, and last month he didn't do anything at all. And then this month he started like he hasn't closed anything yet," and by he didn't do anything at all, what he means is he didn't close anything.  [00:04:00] Jason: Okay. Not that he wasn't working. No deals yet.  [00:04:01] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Not that he wasn't working. He was working. And this month now is his 60 day mark and he hasn't closed anything, but he's, you know, making calls and he's starting to, you know, get some things kind of ready and warmed up in the pipeline. [00:04:16] He, he said, "man, should I just let him go? Like, is he just not the right person? I feel like it's 60 days, like, I should see some results at this point."  [00:04:26] Jason: Okay.  [00:04:26] Sarah: So I'd like to, I'd really like to talk about that. And this is going to be, whatever episode this is "Sarah's Tough Love episode." So here it is. [00:04:35] Jason: Got it. Okay, I mean, let's get the basic stuff out of the way, right? First, we need to know that we have the right person. So, we need to know what those expectations are. So, that's where we define that. Usually, we call them R docs, but in this ultimate job description. So, we need to be clear on what we're looking for. [00:04:51] We need to be clear on what results we're expecting. We need to be clear on, you know, what outcomes we're hoping for and they need to be clear on this, right? Like if we're bringing somebody in, they need that clarity. So if there's anyone listening and there's any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes. [00:05:09] And those aren't good, right? And so there needs to be at least, and you need to be on the same page. Literally, the way we do that is with a page called an RDoc. And so you make sure you're on the same page. And all those young Gen Z people, notice how I used the word literally, correctly like it's an actual page. [00:05:28] Sarah: I was just thinking that.  [00:05:29] Jason: Stop saying the word literally. It drives me fucking nuts. So, all right.  [00:05:33] Sarah: Literally.  [00:05:34] Jason: I literally, like if, yeah, nobody's confused about it being figurative, then don't, you don't need to say the word.  [00:05:41] Sarah: I literally died yesterday when I read that text.  [00:05:43] Jason: No, you would be dead. [00:05:45] You would actually be dead. All right. So, Now the next piece is we need to make sure we've got a person that fits that job description, right? They actually are the right personality. Well, let's talk about the three fits real quick. They have to match all three or they're not going to be a good BDM. [00:06:01] Sarah: Or it's never going to work out. And it doesn't matter if it's a BDM, an operator, a property manager, an assistant, a maintenance coordinator. It doesn't, name the role, doesn't matter.  [00:06:10] Jason: So, first, they have to be the right personality for the job or they'll never be great at it. They'll never be motivated to do it. [00:06:18] You bring in somebody to be a BDM, for example, and they're not the right personality to go out and want to talk to people and connect with people and network and that's not fun for them, they're always going to resist it. They're going to avoid it. They're going to do a bunch of time wasting stupid activities They're going to train everything else other than what really should be done, which is to go connect with people and have conversations. So they're going to be like "well I'm trying some marketing thing and i'm trying this thing and like and-"  [00:06:47] Sarah: "I sent 5,000 emails I don't know why none of them came back." [00:06:51] Jason: "We did direct mail to, like, 7,000 owners." [00:06:56] Sarah: I've heard that and it's because this is a true example. "I sent 5,000 emails." [00:07:00] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Sarah: So essentially you did nothing. That's great. Right. Good to know.  [00:07:05] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:05] Sarah: Thank you.  [00:07:06] Jason: Lots of emails, right? So. So,  [00:07:09] Sarah: you know how many junk emails we get in a day? What happens when you get junk email? [00:07:13] Do you open it? Do you read it? Do you respond to it? No. That's what you just did to somebody else.  [00:07:19] Jason: Yeah. It lacks depth. All right. So we can get into tactics later, but they need to match the personality for the role. Which means they would love succeeding at this. They would love doing it. They would enjoy it. [00:07:32] They get some fulfillment out of it. And so that's personality fit. They need to be the right the right culture fit, which means they need to actually believe in your business and in you and in the product. They have to believe in this. You cannot sell effectively if you lack belief. And that goes for everybody on the team. [00:07:53] Like, if your operator isn't a believer in you or the business, they're not going to want or care to make sure that it runs well for you. If your executive assistant isn't, you know, a believer in you or shares your values, they're never going to do things in a way that makes you feel safe or that you trust them. [00:08:09] Cultural fit means they do it the way that you would want it done, that they share your values. The big clue we talked about this at our last jumpstart event where we had clients and somebody had a team member. And I just asked, I said, well, do you feel better when they're around? [00:08:25] Do you feel calmer when they're around? And they were like, no, I'm like, yeah, then they got to go.  [00:08:30] Sarah: He said, oh, well, a lot of our communication we do over the phone because that's better.  [00:08:36] Jason: Because there's such a high degree of conflict.  [00:08:37] Sarah: Jason says, better than what? Awful?  [00:08:40] Jason: Yeah, and then he laughed. [00:08:41] Everybody laughed in the group and he was like, well, yeah.  [00:08:44] Sarah: Well, I can't talk to this person in person. I can't be around them. Because when we're around each other, there's too much conflict. It's just too, it gets, yeah, it gets too feisty. Well, that's not good.  [00:08:55] Jason: Yeah, that means that person's not a good fit for that person for that particular client. [00:09:00] Sarah: And let's be clear. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with this particular person. No, it doesn't make them a bad person It doesn't mean, you know, all the they'll never succeed No, it just means that they are better suited in a different environment That's all. It means not everybody like when you're dating, you don't want to date everybody. You want to date people that you like generally and there are certain people that you like and there are certain people that you just don't mesh well. The businesses work the same way.  [00:09:31] Jason: Yeah. They've got to match your values. Because regardless you get somebody that's amazing BDM, for example, or an amazing operator for your business, they don't share your values, you'll never trust them. Like you just can't. And then the third fit is skill fit. So they have to have the skill or the ability or the intellectual capacity to learn and develop this skill quickly. And so if they don't, then you'll invest a bunch of energy into trying to train them and they're just too stupid to get it. [00:10:01] Or they just can't figure it out or maybe you hire somebody and they've got bad habits or they can't adapt. So they need to have that skill fit. They got to be all three or they're not going to be a good fit. So let's assume if we've helped them with DoorGrow Hiring, we focus on these three fits. [00:10:18] We have a whole hiring mechanism. Make sure these generally go well.  [00:10:22] Sarah: Yeah. So I can tell you, I don't think that's any of those are the problem.  [00:10:26] Jason: This person. Yeah. So in these situations, the person is the right fit. Yeah, usually that's the problem is they're not even getting the right person. [00:10:33] Most of y'all doing hiring, you're playing Russian roulette hiring and you don't have good fits.  [00:10:38] Sarah: Or it's, oh, this person had the experience and they came from such and such a Yeah, we hear that all the time.  [00:10:43] Jason: Yeah. Well, they're so experienced, and you feel uncomfortable around them and you don't trust them. [00:10:50] Yeah. So let's assume that, you know, with our clients, we've helped them find people that match the three fits. So now we're past that hurdle, that's very typical for most people, well, now, if it's not them, then who is it?  [00:11:04] Sarah: Okay. So here's where the tough love comes is. This is always my question. [00:11:08] And I'm very, very particular about what happens when you hire someone. You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet. I know it feels like you've gotten through it and now things are better and you should just be able to rely on that person. You're not there yet. [00:11:33] You will be. But you're just not, you're getting closer. You're just not fully there yet. And this is what happens a lot of times and they go, "Oh, okay, so I know I need to train this person and then I'll probably train them for like a week or two and then they'll just be good." [00:11:48] Absolutely not. So especially with a new person and it doesn't matter. Here's the other thing that I hear all the time, especially when somebody has the experience. Oh, well, you know, they have a sales background. They know how to sell. Great. They don't know how to sell for you. They don't know how to sell what you've got. [00:12:05] They don't know how to sell your values and your mission. They don't know how to sell that yet. They don't quite know. So you can take any salesperson in the universe and plug them into your business. Do they have the skill? Yes. Do they have the experience? Of course, but they still have to be trained. So having the experience does not mean "Oh, I don't have to train them," or, "oh, I don't have to train them as much." [00:12:32] You still have to train them a lot. There is a lot of training. And I hate to break it to you, but your life when you hire gets worse. So your life is bad, you know you need to hire, then you hire somebody, your life is now worse for a short period of time. The reason being is everything that you were doing, you still have to do it, and in addition, you now have to train somebody. So nothing has changed except that you just added another responsibility for yourself for the next 30 to 90 days. And there is no way around that with hiring. So if you hire and you fail the train, it is probably not going to work out. They will not get the results. [00:13:16] They will be frustrated. You will be frustrated. And at some point, you will get back into the cycle of, "Oh, well, now I guess I have to hire again." And then you live in hell forever. And it's not a good place to be.  [00:13:31] Jason: Yeah, so unless you hire somebody that is an amazing 'who,' right? There's a book called Who Not How it's a great book. [00:13:40] Unless you hire an amazing 'who,' like you bring in somebody, they're a sales trainer and an expert closer, and they've had tons of success and they can teach other people's sales, then I think, in any role, you have to assume you need an assumption that they're going to do it wrong. You have to start with that foundational assumption that they're going to do everything wrong. [00:14:01] If I hired an operator cold, they're doing it wrong, that I need them to install my operational system. If they are coming in as a salesperson in the business, I know they've been trained poorly because most sales training out there doesn't work anymore. There's a new model and a new way of selling and all the old stuff. [00:14:20] All the salesy guys that are sales trainers and sales coaches largely out there that push. Doesn't work anymore. It's outdated. And we don't push that stuff at DoorGrow. We've had to shift how we sell and we teach clients differently, even in the last year. And so my assumption is that they're going to do it wrong, but. [00:14:40] What I do assume is if they've done it well before, they have the ability to learn it. They have the ability to be a good operator. They have the ability to be a good BDM. But there needs to, you can't assume because they have done it before, that you're just going to rely on them to do it.  [00:14:56] Sarah: It's not plug and play. [00:14:58] "I hired them now they're just going to go do it and they're going to sell a bunch of stuff for me." No.  [00:15:02] Jason: Right. You're always going to be disappointed with most everybody if you come in with this assumption and they're going to feel unsupported and untrained and frustrated.  [00:15:13] Sarah: And they will inevitably either quit or get fired.  [00:15:16] Jason: Yeah, they'll go find a better situation.  [00:15:18] Sarah: No matter what, it will not work out. So here's a good moment to talk about Vendoroo.  [00:15:25] Jason: We'll talk in just a minute. We're going to talk about the onboarding and then some of the next steps that are really important. But quick word from our sponsor. If you're tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination, meet Vendoroo, your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish. Triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection, and coordination built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations, where every dollar is accounted for, and every task is handled with unmatched reliability Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at vendoroo.ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. Okay. So check them out.  [00:16:10] Sarah: Speaking of doing things right, let's talk about what happens after you hire somebody.  [00:16:15] Jason: So the next step after you hire it, it has to be onboarding. There needs to be a good transition of bringing somebody out from the wild, this untrained wild creature, getting them to be something that is going to work inside of your business and fit you and fit what you want. [00:16:33] It's onboarding.  [00:16:34] Sarah: And if you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction because I'm sure that you can think back to a previous job that you've had back when we all had job jobs, right? Have you ever just been hired and then kind of just, it's almost like train yourself or figure it out or, well, "I'm going to train you a little bit and then the rest is up to you. Well, what do you mean? I trained you for a whole day. Now I'm done." [00:17:06] "Oh, okay. So that's it. That's all the support I'm going to get. All right."  [00:17:10] have you ever been hired and then you don't even truly know what you're supposed to do? I don't know. I'm supposed to sell stuff.  [00:17:16] Jason: So here's the challenge. Here's the challenge with this with entrepreneurs, I've been thrown into job situations where there was terrible onboarding, terrible training, but I'm an entrepreneur personality type. [00:17:27] I then innovated, figured it out. And in some situations where at a job I then quickly was put into leadership and sort of managing others. But I had initiative. I had drive, like I had adaptability and I find entrepreneurs are incredibly adaptable and they make the mistake of assuming that everybody else is like them and they're not, they're like, "well, I would just figure it out and I would just ask enough questions. And if I didn't know something, I would just like, and so you can't assume that everybody is like you, if they were like you, they wouldn't work for you. How many of you would go work for somebody now? Like, you're unemployable. Like, let's be real. You would suck as an employee, probably, right? I'm unemployable at this point. [00:18:10] I'm not going to like sit around and let somebody just tell me what to do all the time and whatever. Right. But they're not the same as you. And if they were, then they might just, you know, start a business and leave your business. Right. So they're willing, if they're willing to work for you, you need to assume that they are not the same as you and that they need to be guided. They need support. Now that doesn't mean they can't learn or they're not adaptable. That's the skill fit Don't make the assumption that they'll just wing it and figure it all out unless they're just incredibly driven and incredibly patient And they're really a strong believer in you. [00:18:45] Some of them may do that, but you don't want to lose a good person simply because they feel like you don't care or you're not invested.  [00:18:52] Sarah: So this is There's so much time that goes into hiring and this is why I say don't waste the time that you've spent trying to find the right person and screening applications and interviewing and you put a whole bunch of time and probably effort into this and now you found the person, don't waste that opportunity. [00:19:18] So you need to onboard them properly. And what does that mean? We need to make sure that they have access to all of the systems that they're going to need. And that they know all of the systems that they're going to need. So, oh, what are the tools that I use? And then, do I know how to access it? And, do I know how to use it? [00:19:36] Right? Don't just assume that they'll figure out, Oh, well, this is how I use this phone system. Train them on it. Just show them that. So, there's got to be training for those sorts of things. If they're in sales, then, well, How do I sell? How do I reach people? What am I doing? Am I just doing the fit call, figuring that out? [00:20:00] Am I doing the full pitch? Am I closing? Am I setting them up for you and then you're going to close? What exactly am I doing? So train them on every single thing that they need to know. And I know this sounds so silly, but most people do not do this. So, what do I say? What do I do? Do I have a script? Do I just make it up? [00:20:22] Where do I find people? Am I in the office? Am I driving around? Am I, like, meeting people at events? What am I supposed to be doing all day? Because I'm brand new and I know nothing. So I'm completely reliant upon you to tell me what to do. So if they don't know, don't assume that they're just going to go and figure it out for you. [00:20:44] You have to show them and they have to shadow you. So for the first 90 days, this is all training. So when you hire any person, now some of them will pick it up a little bit quicker and some of them will take the full 90 days and either way it's all right. But just in your head, tell yourself it's going to take the full 90 days, right? [00:21:07] So in that 90 days. With any position, but especially in sales, don't expect them to come in and then just start selling. Oh, wow, they closed a bunch of deals. That was awesome. That's so cool. So there's kind of a ramp up period in every position, but certainly in sales. So shadowing is very important here. [00:21:31] They need to be all over you. All the time. So you need to meet with them every day.  [00:21:40] Jason: Or whoever is the person they're learning from. Sometimes it's not going to be you, eventually. In the beginning, it's always you, right? Which leads us to, like, availability and access is huge in the beginning. Like, if a team member doesn't have access to you, or you are unavailable because you're so busy. [00:21:58] They're going to feel stuck. They're going to feel unsupported. They're going to feel fearful in what they're doing. And so they need to have availability. This morning, I got a phone call. Like a call came in through Telegram. She called me and she's like, "Hey, I'm supposed to do a triage call right now? I have a scheduled appointment, and I'm trying to load Zoom and it's saying, it's waiting for the host. And I'm supposed to be the host." And I said, Then just call them, like pick up the phone, just call them. It's a quick call anyway, but it probably has to do with maybe you're not logged in or you click the link somewhere else and it doesn't realize you're logged in. [00:22:31] It happens to me sometimes. And she said, okay, yeah, I'll just call them. You know, if she were in that situation, this is her first triage call and she's like totally stuck and I'm like unavailable and she's freaking out, then she's going to feel, you know, people go through all sorts of emotions like anger, shame, guilt, fear, like, you know, stuff like this. And so we don't want to put our team members on this emotional rollercoaster of discomfort when everything's uncertain in the beginning. So that's important. Once we get through and the onboarding period, my general rule for onboarding is 90 days, like you said, then the first the first 30, I'm usually meeting with them maybe for an hour a day and I'm highly available.  [00:23:12] Sarah: Every day. [00:23:13] Jason: Yeah. [00:23:14] Sarah: Every day.  [00:23:15] Jason: That's usually the goal. And then after that, I might the next month, maybe it's a shorter time period every day if I'm over like consistently training them like a BDM especially. But otherwise, it might be that we start backing it off to maybe meeting weekly. And then depending on the role of whether or not I'm their supervisor directly, or if they're kind of owning a piece of the business, I then might back it off in the last month or eventually for the future to meet with them monthly to support them or whatnot. Like you kind of gradually step it down and it'll be obvious because you'll be getting on calls with them and like, Hey, what else should we talk about? What else do you need to know? What other questions you have or hey, I want to make sure you know this and you're going to start to run out of ideas. And they're going to start to not need you as much. And so then it's pretty obvious. Well, okay, then I guess we'll end this early. And that's a clue. Well, maybe we don't need to meet as often now. And they'll let you know. You know, do you think we need to keep meeting all the time like this? Like, well, it is helpful, but I don't know that we need an hour, maybe 30 minutes. Okay, cool. If we could just meet 15 minutes each day so I can get unstuck on a few things. Awesome. Right. So I meet with my assistant every day for a short amount of time. [00:24:26] But they're directly responsible to help and support me on things as an operator, like you run our weekly meeting and our daily huddles. Right? And so there's different things like there's sort of a cadence of structure, even regardless. So. I think after we get through onboarding and you've got good access, good availability, they feel supported and they're succeeding, they need to be getting results. [00:24:50] So I think the next step in my mind is there needs to be accountability. So if you're letting somebody just run and it's 60 days in and they are not succeeding or getting results, like cool, how many calls has the BDM made? "I don't know." Okay. How, like, how often have you met with them? "Well, you know, not often." If there's no part of meeting with them is to create accountability. [00:25:13] Like, Hey, what are you working on today? What do you feel like is next? What are you going to be doing? And to make sure that you're guiding them towards what they should be working on. So accountability means, you know, metrics if they're a bDM.  [00:25:26] Sarah: You need to know the metrics.  [00:25:28] Jason: How many networking events have they gone to in the last week? [00:25:31] How many phone calls and outreach have they made to potential referral partners or real estate agents? How many investors have they reached out or called? Are they on top of all of the follow up tasks and deals that are in the CRM? Do you have a CRM, right? Like there needs to be accountability. So there's a record. [00:25:50] Are they keeping notes? Are they, are the calls recorded? Can you listen to their calls to help them improve? Like if there's no transparency or accountability, there's almost no likelihood that they're going to succeed. Like it's because they're not being watched. So, basically, you're sending the signal, it doesn't matter. [00:26:08] You might get somebody that's an amazing self starter.  [00:26:11] Sarah: Go figure it out. Well, shit, I don't know. I guess I'll just make it up. But then when they make a decision and now their decision is different than your decision, now, you didn't tell them what to do. They just made something up and now you're not happy with the results. [00:26:28] Jason: Yeah, and they're lacking leadership and if they're lacking in your jobs to be the leader and they're lacking leadership, then they have no accountability and they have no, there's no transparency or visibility in what they're doing. You won't know. If what they're doing is working or not working. And so they'll just keep doing what's not working. [00:26:48] Because if they still get paid either way, that's a bad situation for most team members. Most team members will continue to get paid whether or not they're really performing at an exceptional level or a decent level. And with a BDM, their compensation should be directly connected to getting results, so they should really want it. [00:27:06] But if there's no accountability or transparency in the beginning, They're probably going to do a lot of stuff that isn't working and they're going to be frustrated and they  [00:27:15] Sarah: know why it's not working  [00:27:17] Jason: Yeah,  [00:27:18] Sarah: they'll come to you and say hey like I'm doing what you told me to do. You told me to make all these calls I mean all these calls. It's not working.  [00:27:26] Jason: And this is one of the ways in which DoorGrow can assist. [00:27:29] We can assist with this, right? Like they can show up to our Wednesday coaching call if they're a BDM focusing on growth. And the BDM can come to the call and say, Hey, I'm trying to do this and I'm getting this result. It's not the outcome I'm looking for. It's not working. Cool. Maybe you need to change this. [00:27:44] Or how are you saying it? Or what are you doing? Or could you send us a call recording? So all of these things that we teach, we know work. They can work. If it's not working, then it's obvious that it must be what they're doing. They're not doing it correct. They're doing it maybe in the wrong way or maybe they're not saying the right things or maybe their tone is off or maybe They are turning people off and they sound like a telemarketer or they're creating the sales ick or the sales resistance in people by how they're approaching people and these are easy changes These are little things that are very easy to tweak or change. [00:28:22] I mean just listening to one sales call from somebody, I can give them a lot of feedback and it's like they grow so much faster and quicker. And that's one way to add some visibility or accountability into the equation. But as a business owner, you need to know their metrics. They need to have metrics and be accountable for that, right? [00:28:40] They need to know what are the leading actions that I need to be taking that are going to get the business development results? What are the daily activities that I need to be doing in order to succeed? So that's my take  [00:28:53] Sarah: for sure. And I love listening to the call recordings because then sometimes when you're in the moment and this happens to all of us, sometimes when you're in the moment, you have a certain perception of how things went and then when you go back and you listen to it later, you'll catch something that you weren't aware of in that moment. [00:29:14] So maybe it's something that they said, maybe it's something that you said, maybe you. Didn't explain something the way that they understood it, but you'll hear things that you may have missed in the moment and Especially with salespeople, this is a training opportunity. So a lot of times people go "what am I supposed to train them on? Like they know how to use the CRM? they know how to use the phone system. They know what to do. They got to just go do it." Okay? Well Are we honing in skills? Are we improving things? Or are we just saying like, "Go do it! Go make a thousand calls this week!: Okay, well, if I make a thousand shitty calls  [00:29:53] Jason: Yeah, you're just wasting energy and you're wasting your leads or your opportunities. [00:29:58] Sarah: So there's always this fine tuning that we have to do. And very rarely are people able to do it for themselves. Sometimes they can go back and listen to a call recording and then go, Oh, you know what? I'm going to improve that. But a lot of times it's really good to have two people listening to the call recording for that reason. [00:30:20] And then the last thing that I do want to talk about is what does the 30, 60, 90 day period look like? So I always tell people in their first 30 days, this is nothing but training. This is deep training, you really do need to be meeting with them every day, not when it's convenient, not when you have time, not, "oh, well, I skipped that day because this happened." [00:30:42] Every single day, every day, they need to have the correct resources, the correct knowledge, the right support, the questions need to be answered, you need to be available to them. They need to have all of this because they're brand new. So a lot of times what happens is people hire somebody and it's like a little baby bird and then they push the baby bird out of the nest. [00:31:08] The bird can't fly yet because you didn't even teach it what its wings are, right? So we can't do that yet. So in the first 30 days, really expect nothing. Really, they just need to be training. If they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome. Great! I mean, they should be doing the activities. [00:31:27] Jason: I expect work.  [00:31:28] Sarah: Yes,  [00:31:29] Jason: I expect to actually and work like if it's to make calls, I expect them in like a BDM should be making some outbound outreach and calls right away.  [00:31:39] Sarah: Absolutely.  [00:31:40] Jason: Otherwise, how are you going to know that  [00:31:41] Sarah: if it's going to, yeah,  [00:31:43] Jason: they shouldn't just be like, just learning. So it's like, I want to get them on the phone and get them making calls. [00:31:47] Sarah: No, but in sales, let's be really clear here. Training. This is hands on training. This is like trying to say, "Hey, I need to go learn how to drive a car. But I'm never actually going to get in the car. I'm going to meet with you on Zoom or I'm going to sit with you and you're going to tell me about how to drive a car." [00:32:03] No, honey, you gotta go get in the car. So, yes, you have to actually be doing it, doing the activities.  [00:32:09] That is training.  [00:32:10] Jason: There's no amount of manuals or videos you could read or watch that would teach you how to drive a car. You have to drive the car.  [00:32:17] Sarah: Yes. So, if they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome, that's gravy, that's a bonus. [00:32:23] But sometimes people go, "oh man, it's been 30 days and I haven't closed anything. Like, man, they must suck." They're new. They're learning so much and when you implement a new thing, you're probably not going to be very good at it. Especially a new strategy or a new way of doing sales because the way that we teach our clients to sell is different. [00:32:43] It's different. We're not hardcore closing everybody. We're not doing that. So it's, everything is different. They don't have their bearings yet. They don't even have their footing and their foundations, right? So 30 days, if they close something, that's great. But I still, I want them to be training and I want them to be doing some sort of, you know, whatever it's going to be. [00:33:04] If you have them doing events or presentations or calls or a mixture of all of them, great.  [00:33:10] Jason: There should be progress. You'll see progress. And if that's the thing you don't want to tolerate somebody being in the business for 60 days, 90 days, and you're not seeing progress or action, and you're trying to push them. [00:33:23] If you're having to push somebody to do something. Probably they're not the right personality fit. If you feel unsafe with them doing things, and it makes you uncomfortable, how they're doing things, probably not a culture fit. They're not doing it according to your values. [00:33:36] The "how" they go about doing it is different than you. If they're just not doing the right things, then that's a training issue. Or they're just not intelligent enough to learn the skill. So that's a skill fit. Okay,  [00:33:48] Sarah: so then 60 days I do want to see some progress. They might close something. [00:33:55] They still might not it depends. I can't say yes or no Oh, they should definitely close. I can't you can't say that because everybody has their own time frame, right? And investors sometimes they work on their own time frames. You can't control that but I do want to see I want to feel like things are happening, and I want to feel like, Hey, we've got some stuff in the pipeline, we've got some stuff that I feel like might close. [00:34:20] If you say, Hey, what do you have that's about to close? Do you feel like anybody's close? And they go not really. Oh... [00:34:27] Jason: are they getting appointments? Are there relationships being built? Are there deals now kind of get in the pipeline at some of the earlier stages? Like you should start to see the sales pipeline mature and build. [00:34:37] Sarah: So then 90 days they've been doing that. Now they understand everything. They know what to do. They know how to do it. They've gotten their feet wet. They've now tested things and then also made some improvements. They're like, Oh, well, when I say it like this, it doesn't work. It doesn't resonate. [00:34:53] But if I say it like this, it's better. Oh I have to switch this and this, right? Now you're making those little tweaks, those little improvements. So 90 days, they should be able to close something at this point. And same thing with the pipeline. I need to see the pipeline moving forward. I need to see more being added in the pipeline. [00:35:11] I need to see them further along in different stages in the pipeline. Things need to start kind of really moving forward at this point. And then after the 90 days, Now, you get to push the bird out of the nest, right? Now, you're a baby bird, go push him. You should now have everything that you need to be able to soar, as long as we did our job. [00:35:34] But a lot of times, I get it, it's hard, because you're running a business, and you're an entrepreneur, and you're busy, and it's crazy. And now you want me to train somebody? Yep. Yeah. Because once they are able to do it for you, now you can relax into it. But if we skip the training, what's going to happen is you're going to go, man, they're just not getting me the results. [00:35:55] Or they might get frustrated and go, man, my boss sucks. Like they don't train me on. Anything, and it's just not, it's not a good place here. I know, I'm going to leave because I know that if I don't, then I'll eventually get fired. So regardless, they're going to leave. And then you're going to have to go, God, well now I have to go hire somebody. [00:36:11] And then you're going to hire somebody. And then you're going to be in this whole hiring cycle of hell for the rest of eternity. And that's not a fun place to be. It's not. It's really painful.  [00:36:21] Jason: Yeah, a lot of people wait until they're in pain to hire instead of hiring strategically with a plan or, you know, in advance. [00:36:29] And so once you get to the place where you need a new team member, and then you hire, and now you're going to have to, you're kind of shot in the foot, and you're going to have to like go backwards time wise, like then you're in a worse spot, like that's not the ideal place to be hiring. And then later you'll create more freedom you know, eventually, but yeah, you want to make sure that you are kind of aware of your capacity and starting to like get your hiring systems, get your new hires in place in advance before you need it. [00:37:01] And this is why it's super important to make sure you're making the right decisions in the business. So we have frameworks for how to decide what you need most in the business and frameworks for how to decide what the business needs most. So you're making healthy. financial hiring decisions because making wrong decisions that way can really hurt cash flow and can, you know, especially early in the business can really be dangerous. [00:37:22] So, well, is there anything else you'd say to maybe some of our clients or people that they've gotten a new hire. It's probably a good hire and they need to make sure they're doing their onboarding and taking care of this new hire correctly.  [00:37:36] Sarah: Yeah, get it on your calendar. Don't just say you're going to do it. [00:37:40] It has to be scheduled time where it's dedicated. And also, don't half ass it. Don't be like, oh yeah, I'm going to be on the phone with Joe while I'm like over here. They know. That's not dedicated. That does not feel good. We've all been on the receiving end of something like that. So, don't make people guess. [00:37:59] Don't make them figure it out. It's not going to work out well.  [00:38:03] Jason: Alright. That's our episode for today. So I think that this should be pretty helpful for some of our clients that are getting into new hires And hopefully it was helpful for a lot of you listening if you're struggling with hiring or building your team or systems or profit, all this relates to the people system in your business. You need people, planning, and process and that's our super system. If you're needing some help with this, reach out to DoorGrow and we can take you to a whole nother level by getting helping you get these systems installed and you'll have a business that you actually enjoy being in. So until next time to our mutual growth. [00:38:42] Bye everyone. [00:38:43] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:39:10] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Man can learn valuable lessons from man's best friend…  In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about their passion project of fostering dogs and how business owners can learn about resilience from these adorable rescue pups. You'll Learn [02:56] The story of Chance the dog [11:09] What does this have to do with running a business? [18:39] Jason and Sarah's foster dogs Tweetables “You will look back on this as being such an easy thing for you to deal with in the present moment.” “If you're going to go through tough stuff, it's a lot better to have the right support around you.” “You're going to make mistakes, but that's the price of tuition in business.” “We're all doing the best we can with our current limited capacity and knowledge that we possessed in that moment.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If this dog can go through everything that he went through and still push through, whatever is happening in your business, whatever is happening in your life, whatever is happening in your marriage, in your friendships, in your relationships, you can push through it.  [00:00:14] Jason: Yeah, just tell yourself you're not yet at Maynard level. [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:35] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win we're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, founder, [00:01:16] cOO of DoorGrow. [00:01:18] And now let's get into the show. All right So we were thinking what we should talk about today and one of Sarah's strong passions Is dogs. I think Sarah likes dogs more than people. Is that fair?  [00:01:34] Sarah: That's accurate.  [00:01:35] Jason: Okay, she's an intj. Any of you that are familiar with myers briggs intjs typically like animals more than people. I don't know why, and I like dogs too, so not a fan of cats I'm allergic to them and I think they're smelly. [00:01:51] Sorry, all you cat lovers out there, but I'm more of a dog person. You can see in the background here is. Hey buddy, who's smelling around. This is a dog that we're fostering right now. And the working title for this dog is Hans. That's they give them names, but this is a dog we're fostering and it's such a sweet dog. [00:02:13] And so I wanted, this is a passion of Sarah's. We've been fostering some dogs and we've had, had some difficult times fostering dogs and we've had some good times, you know, let's, should we talk about our first foster?  [00:02:27] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. If that didn't turn us off to fostering...  [00:02:31] it was like worst case scenario, I would say. [00:02:35] Jason: So Sarah's dog, one of our dogs, he's a large dog and he's a Pitbull. American.  [00:02:44] Sarah: He's an American Pitbull. American Pitbull.  [00:02:45] Jason: Terrier. 100%. We got him DNA tested, purebred. And then we have another little mutt that we can talk about that we got.  [00:02:53] Sarah: That we adopted. Well, that one was after the whole Chance thing. [00:02:56] Jason: Yeah, totally. So we decided to, like foster, we brought a dog in and this dog's name was Chance and he was a pit bull. We thought maybe they'd get along but we didn't know Chance's background. We didn't know Chance's history. The previous people made it sound like he was a good dog sort of, but they really, I think we're kind of keeping secrets from us and gave us a bunch of rules. [00:03:21] Like, be careful with other dogs and like separate for a while and we did everything  [00:03:25] Sarah: that's always the rule.  [00:03:26] Jason: Sure.  [00:03:26] Sarah: Careful with other dogs be separate for a while. Slow introductions. Never feed together. That's yeah, those are always the rules. You say that as if that was like a red flag. [00:03:35] That was not a red flag.  [00:03:36] Jason: Okay. [00:03:37] Sarah: They tell you that with every dog.  [00:03:38] Jason: They had to have known that this dog had some violent tendencies or some history. So long story short, this dog bit Sarah. They gaslit us and blamed, it bit her arm. And they were like, "oh, well, there was food involved" or something like this. [00:03:53] We're like, okay, maybe it was us. We'll be more careful. So we still kept the dog. And we had the dog for like a month.  [00:04:00] Sarah: We struggled with that too. Because we really, we, right then and there, we thought, okay. I think we're done. I think he's got to go back. Someone else can foster him. [00:04:08] Yeah. And they kind of talked us into it. Like, "oh, well, can you just hang on to him until I find another place for him to go? Because like, nobody can take him right now."  [00:04:18] Jason: I don't think there's any safe place for them to go. So later. At this point later, it had been a month, we had integrated the dogs, they were hanging out, they're on the couch together, like it didn't seem to be a problem. [00:04:31] It was kind of, but I think really was like a working truce or something. I think this dog had a history of maybe being involved in dog fights, something like this would be my guess. Because some dogs will usually get together. And they'll do a little bit of have a little tiff, but they're not trying to kill each other, right? [00:04:48] They'll, like, bite, they'll do something, they'll give a warning, and they'll be done with it. So, I had come home from a walk, Parker came up to me, I played with him a little bit, he did a little playful sort of growl with a toy or whatever, the other dog gets off the couch. This dog had no expression. He's just headed towards Parker. [00:05:07] Parker saw him and it was like, it was on and saw him coming towards me. And they just locked up and they got into this horrible dog fight. Like, and we have a long entryway into our home, like a big hallway, like entryway that runs kind of all the way to the back of the house almost. [00:05:26] Right. And this was. in our family room towards the back of the house and the fight continued all the way to the front door. Like it was just, it was a disaster. This dog Chance and Parker were fighting and we were trying to break it up. Sarah was on with Parker trying to pull him and I was trying to get Chance off and Sarah, you were freaking out if you don't mind me saying. [00:05:51]  [00:05:51] Sarah: I mean, yeah. Like, rightfully so.  [00:05:54] Jason: Yeah. She's freaking out. And so it, yeah it was interesting. So there's blood everywhere. Blood flying all over the place, dogs are locked up and fighting, biting at each other and so then I, yeah. You know, if I had my gun or knife on me, dog probably would be dead. [00:06:09] I couldn't figure out what else to do. And we weren't going to let him kill our dog. And he was much stronger than Parker. So, we didn't want Parker to die. Right. So, but what I did in that moment is I was like, I had done a little bit of jujitsu training in the past. So I was like, Oh, I'm going to choke him out. [00:06:26] I was trying to, I first tried to lift the legs up. Cause that's what people say. I didn't, that wasn't really a great idea because I lift his back legs up and to try and pull him off. And he just turned and latched onto my leg. He turned really quickly, latched onto my leg, bit my leg through my pants. I have permanent bite mark on my right leg and had latched on my leg. [00:06:49] through my pants and was biting me. Then Parker was coming at him. So he turned back to Parker. And then I use that moment when he came at my leg towards me to get my arm underneath his neck and then to choke him out, just like in martial arts. So I did a blood choke and I figured he's probably got veins going through his neck to his brain, just like all of us humans. [00:07:13] And it choked him out. And then He passed out. I was holding him in my arm and I picked him up and was choking him out because he eventually released Parker and I was choking him out. I'm holding this limp dog in my arm. And then his Parker was latched onto one of his legs or something. And Sarah was like, "what do I do? What do I do? He won't let go!" And I was like, Sarah has a martial arts background, so I figured you knew how to do a choke. So I was like, "choke him out. You got to choke him out!" So she had to grab Parker and get him to release. And and he did. Parker really was trying to protect us. That was obvious. [00:07:52] But Parker was losing, like it wasn't going well for him. Parker, the other dog had some bites on him, but he was okay. But Parker had to go to the hospital. Like he was really messed up. He had to get surgery. His ear was like torn in half. Yeah, his  [00:08:09] Sarah: ear was torn and then he had a chunk ripped out of his neck. [00:08:13] Like the back of his neck. Yeah, it was ugly. Yeah, it was not good.  [00:08:16] Jason: So, while I had Chance in the choke hold and limp, I carried him through the house to the backyard and put him into the backyard. And shut the door so we could just keep them separate. And then, yeah, we were just, I was totally scared of that dog after that. [00:08:33] But that's what we did. And eventually I think we just got him into a crate or something. So he wasn't in the backyard.  [00:08:39] Sarah: Yeah. No, I had to go get him.  [00:08:41] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:42] Sarah: Into the crate. Because he was like, I don't think he's going to want to see me. I just choked him out. No. No, that's probably a good call. [00:08:48] Jason: He probably wouldn't want to attack me. Yeah. Because I was pretty rough with him. So, that's my adventure in choking out a pit bull. Yeah.  [00:08:58] Sarah: So I think you never really know what you're going to do until you're like in the moment.  [00:09:02] Jason: Yeah.  [00:09:03] Sarah: And then your adrenaline kicks in and sometimes you know what you're going to do or you think you know what you're going to do ahead of time and you find out there's no plan. [00:09:12] There's no plan. And the they do tell you like, oh, lift the dog's hind legs over its head and it will release. Yes, and  [00:09:20] two out of two times it released and then latched on to.  [00:09:25] Jason: Yeah, they don't like that it's being lifted up.  [00:09:27] Sarah: No.  [00:09:27] Jason: So, I mean, that was an interesting moment because I went into tunnel vision. [00:09:31] This is how guys brains work. We're generally singular focused. This is why they send us to war, right? We can just focus on one thing. So I wasn't really particularly traumatized by the event. I mean, it was, but I was like, okay, I'm in mission mode. I'm doing what I need to do with the dog and that's it. [00:09:47] Yeah. And then we got to clean up because there's blood everywhere, all through our home. Yeah, it was like a freaking emergency. Walls, everywhere. It was awful. There's blood everywhere.  [00:09:53] Sarah: Everywhere. And then I was covered in it. Because I was holding  [00:09:57] Jason: Parker and I had a white t shirt and then  [00:09:59] Sarah: when we like I got Parker in the office and Chance was outside because Jason put him out there and Jason looked at me and I'm literally like from here down I was just drenched. [00:10:12] Jason: You were holding Parker and he was the more wounded. Drenched. Yeah. [00:10:15] Sarah: And he's going "oh my god. Oh my god." He's like, "Sarah, there's freaking blood" It's not mine. It's not mine. Like, I'm okay. I lost my pinky nail. That got ripped off. So for a while I had no pinky nail that, that was not fun.  [00:10:27] Jason: Like your actual nail.  [00:10:28] Sarah: Like my actual, everybody says, okay. [00:10:30] Let me clear something up. Everybody says, Oh, those aren't real nails. These are real. These are actually attached to my real nails on my finger. So like underneath you can kind of see,  [00:10:41] Jason: yeah, there's like,  [00:10:42] Sarah: there are real nails here. And then yes, I make them longer, but it's not just a tip. Like if you pull off one of these nails, it is attached to your real nail and your real nail will come off with it. [00:10:55] Jason: You had a flesh pinky, like there was no nail for a while. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of odd.  [00:11:00] Sarah: Yeah, it was horrible. Yeah that, that was awful.  [00:11:03] Jason: Yeah, and it took a while for my bite mark to heal. So, yeah. So, so that was our first adventure.  [00:11:09] Sarah: Let me pause here and say, cause I know some of you guys are going, "why the freaking hell are they talking about any of this? It sounds awful. And it's like, oh my God, I don't even want to keep listening to the episode." Keep listening. Because I think one of the things that I would say about particularly about this situation that we had to go through is sometimes in life, sometimes also in business, you gotta go through some shit. [00:11:34] And you're going to be in some situations that you definitely did not plan for, that you've never been in before, and that Maybe you don't know what to do, and in the moment, the only thing you can do is whatever comes to your mind, whatever you can think of, and then, it's afterwards, then there's the PTSD, so then you just have to heal from the PTSD, but I also would say it's fair that every entrepreneur has a little PTSD from their business.  [00:12:07] Jason: Yeah, for sure.  [00:12:08] Sarah: Yeah  [00:12:09] Jason: Well, because entrepreneurs we take bigger risks. We get to experience you know issues like cash flow problems or staffing issues or team members that losing faith in us and leaving or team members stealing from us, right? [00:12:24] Sarah: Having to fire somebody.  [00:12:25] Jason: If you're working for a boss you don't generally have to experience a lot of this stuff that you experience as a business owner. We're choosing into a higher level of stress, trauma, difficulty, which is why it's not for everybody when not everybody starts a business. And but yeah, it's important to heal from these things and to level up from these things and learn from these things so that you can get to that next level of capacity to be able to deal with that next level of stress that exists in business. And I tell clients this all the time. [00:12:55] They're currently dealing with some problem they think is so hard and they're at kind of a lower level and I tell them, someday, you will look back on this as being such an easy thing for you to deal with in the present moment, you'll be like, Oh man, I can't believe that was so hard for me then. I'm dealing with such bigger challenges and bigger level, higher level things now. And that's encouraging for them. They're like, Oh, that's good news. They're like, and they know they're like, yeah, someday this will be easy. I'm like, someday, this hiring stuff will be easy. Someday this, you know, process stuff that you're dealing with will be easy. [00:13:29] Because you're going to increase your capacity. You're going to learn, you're going to level up. It's the price of tuition and business. So let me take a quick break. I'm going to share our sponsor for this episode, which is Vendoroo. So if you are dealing with constant stress, the hassle of maintenance coordination, and that's an issue for you, check out Vendoroo. They're your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish, triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection and coordination. It's built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. [00:14:08] Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at Vendoroo, V E N D O R O O dot AI slash doorGrow and experience maintenance done right. I was actually, we were hanging out with the Vendoroo guys and I was telling them the story. Because we were telling them how we were fostering a dog and we had to get home, you know, from dinner. [00:14:29] And then they were, we somehow shifted in that story and they were just like, so interested. So, but yeah, so if you want to check out DoorGrow. com, we actually just put this up yesterday because we've been fostering and taking care of dogs and our team are really excited about this. I had the idea with one of my team members, we did a secret project. [00:14:51] Yeah, because we knew Sarah would probably like it. So we put up a dog page. So you can see the dogs that we've like, fostered. I don't think we put Chance on the page. Did we? I don't think we put Chance on the page.  [00:15:03] Sarah: No, we didn't. No. Chance was not a great story. But Parker isn't on there either. And Parker is the OG. [00:15:09] Jason: Parker's the OG. We can add Parker.  [00:15:11] Sarah: Parker's like the mascot of everything.  [00:15:14] Jason: So, anyway, check that out right at the top, you'll see a little dog emoji and it says dogs on our website. And you can see, you know, a little bit of the passion we have for helping out dogs. All right. So we told the story of Chance. [00:15:27] And you would think after that we would be done. And I think we were for a little while. It was like, yeah, kind of free, especially for you to like, get past the PTSD of that. You beat yourself up quite a bit about it, which you can be good at times, right?  [00:15:43] Sarah: I'm really, yeah. Yeah. Because on the DISC profile, I'm a DC, so I'm super critical of everything and everyone, including myself. [00:15:54] Yeah.  [00:15:54] So yeah.  [00:15:56] Jason: Which good operators are hard time.  [00:15:58] Sarah: And hard time with that. And I, like I, I internalized a lot of that. I took blame for a lot of that and I had to just kind of work, work my way through that. And it kind of goes back to anytime that you deal with a hard situation, it might be in business or otherwise, you know, you're going to reflect on the situation and some people are really good at externalizing and saying like, none of that was my fault. [00:16:25] You know, I have like no ownership in that whatsoever. Some of people, they take all of the ownership and are really bad at externalizing. So I think you have to kind of find the middle ground. Like what am I responsible for? What am I accountable for? You know, how can I learn? I'm going to learn from that. [00:16:43] And for me it was the, it hands down, it was the scariest moment of my life. Most terrifying moment of my entire life. And I've been in some pretty scary situations back when I did property management. This puts it to shame, absolute shame. But I think it's really just, it's finding the middle ground and figuring out what am I responsible for and how can I learn. [00:17:06] Jason: I think also, I think that some people are kinder to themselves and have more grace for themselves. And I think it's important to remember, like all of us have been through tough stuff and we may beat ourselves up for it, but beating ourselves up doesn't really have any saving power. It doesn't make us better to beat ourselves up. [00:17:26] What we can do though, is we can recognize, you know, in that moment. And based on the decisions we made we were making the best decisions we knew to make at that time And I think you know, we can all afford ourselves a little bit of grace. You're going to make mistakes and screw things up in business. [00:17:41] You're going to fuck up and you're going to make bad choices. I've made some big mistakes like in business. You know, I did a whole episode on my two million dollar mistake or whatever you're going to make mistakes, but that's the price of tuition in business and you keep going. But I think also we need to be willing to afford ourselves some grace and recognize we're all doing the best we can with our current limited capacity and knowledge that we possessed in that moment. [00:18:08] And so if you knew better, you would do better, right? We are definitely going to behave differently having had that lesson with Chance with other dogs, right? We're a little bit more attuned to their behavior. their temperament, like how to integrate them. Like we're paying more attention. [00:18:25] Like we just, we have a different level of awareness and that's what happens in business. If you can move past the trauma and the difficulty and you go right back at it, you pick yourself back up. You dust yourself off. You're going to learn from the experience. So should we talk about some other dogs real quick? [00:18:42] All right. Who else? Well, let's first, let's go to the OG, right? So Parker's my baby. Parker is the best dog I've ever had. And I don't know if there's ever going to be a dog that is better than Parker. I just don't, I said that about my first pit bull and then Parker, I love him so much more than my first pit bull. [00:19:01] . So Parker, I got him 2016, so he's like eight now. And he his mom was a family pet who got out of the yard one day and got herself pregnant. So she went, had a good old time. Her owner found out that she was pregnant and decided to drop her off at the pound because he didn't want a pregnant dog. [00:19:25] Sarah: So, you know, instead of like spay, neuter, that whole thing, he's like, yeah, I'll just take her to the pound.  [00:19:29] Jason: Let's get rid of her.  [00:19:30] Like, while pregnant.  [00:19:32] Sarah: Still going to find you, bud. Like you're out there, I'll get you one day. So dropped her off at the pound. Pregnant dogs should not be at the pound. They will, you know. [00:19:40] Get very sick. So, they moved her to a foster. She had a bunch of puppies and Parker was one of those puppies. So I saved him and he's my baby. He's fiercely loyal and protective of me, even when he probably shouldn't be. Sometimes with Jason, he's protective of me. Like you'll smack my butt, and Parker does not like that.  [00:20:04] Jason: I do smack Sarah's butt butt, everybody. Honest confessions. Husbands, if you are not smacking your wife's butt occasionally, something's wrong. Letting you know. So.  [00:20:15] Sarah: Yeah. But Parker doesn't know. He doesn't know that. He doesn't know it's friendly and playful and loving. No. He knows hitting is bad. [00:20:21] I [00:20:22] Jason: have to do it when he's not nearby.  [00:20:24] Sarah: Yeah. To be fair, I can't hit myself either, so, like, if a bug lands on me or something, I hit myself.  [00:20:30] Jason: Yeah, he starts getting around you and, like, trying to, like, climb on you and, like, protect you from yourself, yeah.  [00:20:36] Sarah: He does.  [00:20:37] Jason: And he'll get, try and get in between us and, like, prevent me from getting near her, yeah. [00:20:41] He does.  [00:20:42] Sarah: He does. So Parker was the first dog that I had ever rescued.  [00:20:45] Jason: He's like a nanny dog.  [00:20:46] Sarah: He is a nanny dog. We call him the nanny dog. He is. And we say, when he's doing his thing, I'm like, oh, he's nanny dogging again. Yeah. So, Parker, we've got Parker. And then after the whole Chance thing, we took a break for about eight months. [00:21:01] And then I thought, okay, well, what if we do a smaller dog? Because after that, Parker was more selective with bigger dogs. Rightfully so. That's his version of PTSD. So I thought, okay, well, maybe a smaller dog could work. And that is where Captain came in. So Captain just for reference, size reference, Parker varies between 80 and 85 pounds. [00:21:24] Jason: Big dog.  [00:21:24] Sarah: Captain is 14, 14 pounds.  [00:21:27] Jason: Yeah, Parker's tall like a lab, but built like a pit bull.  [00:21:30] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, so Captain is only 14 pounds. He's a little baby. He's about  [00:21:36] Jason: tiny  [00:21:37] Sarah: three or four ish He was we got him from a shelter about like an hour and a half away an hour 45 minutes away and Someone had him and his two brothers and decided they were done with him So they shoved them in a crate and they dropped them off at an animal shelter overnight  [00:21:56] Jason: Yeah, because it says you're not allowed to leave animals here. [00:21:59] So they secretly did it in the middle of the night, left the crate there.  [00:22:03] Sarah: On the doorstep. So the staff came in at 7 a. m. and found three dogs shoved in the crate. Huh. Super, super, don't be like these people, be better, okay? So, then him and Parker actually worked really well together and Like Captain just loves Parker so much. [00:22:21] He just loves him so much. Like I take Parker to the chiropractor and Captain stays here. And when I come back with Parker, Captain is way more excited to see Parker than he is to see me. He loves me so much, but he's like, just  [00:22:35] Jason: he's jumping all  [00:22:36] Sarah: over the moon about Parker. So Captain's our second rescue. [00:22:40] Jason: And Captain's, he's kind of a mutt. He, we did a DNA test on him.  [00:22:43] Sarah: Oh, no, he's a he's absolutely a mutt.  [00:22:45] Jason: Yeah, he's got Rat Terrier. He's got...  [00:22:48] Sarah: I think if you could do him in order, probably not.  [00:22:50] Jason: I don't know. Rat Terrier was probably the largest.  [00:22:52] Sarah: Rat Terrier is the largest. What's next? Then American Pit Bull Terrier, which is why he's brindle on the top. [00:22:57] Jason: Oh, yeah.  [00:22:58] Sarah: Huh. Yeah. Okay. Yep. American Pit Bull Terrier. Then Super Mutt.  [00:23:03] Jason: Yeah, that's what the That's a breed. Super Mutt.  [00:23:05] Sarah: I'm like, oh, wow. They call it a Super Mutt. Okay. Okay. It's like 14 percent Super Mutt. Huh. I think. Boston Terrier, Yorkshire Terrier, And then Dachshund, which is what we're told he was. [00:23:19] Jason: Yeah, and he's little. He's really little. He'll get in our face. All the time. Alright, so, next dog.  [00:23:27] Sarah: Yeah, so, we've had Captain for a little over a year now, and then I thought, okay let's foster. We won't adopt another one, but like, we'll foster, we'll, you know, help train it, kinda get it back on its feet, do something good, get it ready for a family. [00:23:42] And that's where Maynard came in.  [00:23:44] Jason: Mmm. Maynard.  [00:23:45] Sarah: That one, that, he's heartbreaking. So if any of you guys had followed us on social media, like, a lot of people I guess were checking in with you, like, how's Maynard? How's Maynard?  [00:23:55] Jason: Yeah it was hard to even look at him and not get emotional. This dog was so emaciated, so starving. [00:24:03] It was a bulldog. They found him in the, in San Antonio, on the street. And this is like in the height of summer. In 104 degree Texas heat, which, if you know anything about bulldogs, they can't breathe because their face is smushed. He was basically a skeleton with fur. If you see pictures or any of our, if you see it, you'll be like, Oh my gosh, like, how's this dog alive? [00:24:27] Yeah, he was covered in like over a hundred ticks. Yeah and he had all sorts of diseases and problems related to that.  [00:24:36] Sarah: Like lesions and wounds. Yeah, he had wounds.  [00:24:38] Jason: Burns it looked like all over his body? [00:24:40] Sarah: He may have hidden under a car that was hot and like burned himself on the hot car trying to find some shade. [00:24:47] Jason: Yeah. [00:24:47] Sarah: And cool himself down. Yeah  [00:24:49] Jason: It's super sad.  [00:24:51] Sarah: This dog was in bad shape. He was 25 pounds and he's supposed to be probably at least 50 or 60.  [00:24:57] Jason: Yeah, they spent And a whole evening trying to pull all the ticks off of him, like they had to give him a blood transfusion or he would have died. Like he was just, he was in bad shape,  [00:25:07] Sarah: He had two tick borne illnesses. [00:25:10] He had pneumonia. He needed a blood transfusion just to survive this. He was obviously severely emaciated and severely dehydrated. And eating, you can't just take a dog like that and shove a bunch of food like Edla, she was like, oh, we could just feed him a lot. And I'm like, you'll kill him. [00:25:29] He'll die. Yeah. So your body, very what happens when you're that far along is muscle atrophy. So your body will eat the muscle. So he had literally no muscle left on him anywhere.  [00:25:42] Jason: He didn't hardly walk  [00:25:42] Sarah: at all.  [00:25:43] Jason: He would just crumple over like he would like, yeah, he would try to walk. [00:25:46] You fall the time, man.  [00:25:47] Sarah: But he would try. He was really like, he tried. You'd think that a dog like this with this many problems would just say like, fuck it, I'm out. Like, I probably would. If I was up for it, I'd be like, alright, just, like, where's the plug? Pull it. Let's do it. But he did not. He did not want to give up. [00:26:04] He did not want to die.  [00:26:06] Jason: We had him for about a week?  [00:26:07] Sarah: We had him for a week. Yeah, we had him for a week.  [00:26:09] Jason: And then, like, he was in bad shape. I don't even think they should have let him come to us, but they didn't know all the stuff that was wrong with them. They  [00:26:15] Sarah: didn't, yeah, they didn't know everything because they didn't do the full like, scan. [00:26:19] Jason: So we had him for a week and took care of him, but we started to notice he was like, he was getting worse. So then we we reached out to the foster organization and then they took Maynard to the doctors and they were, like, he was in bad shape. His whole esophagus had been destroyed so he couldn't, like, move food down. [00:26:38] They've, we've, later they figured out, well, he just needs to sit upright, and like, gravity, and maybe that'll heal over time, I don't know, but he had a whole bunch of issues, but before they figured that out, they were like, this dog is in such bad shape. He's not really getting food down.  [00:26:53] Sarah: He's. Well, they didn't know what exactly. [00:26:54] Yeah, so they were about to put him down. When I brought him back to the vet. So they started doing some tests on him. They said he actually lost weight and I'm like that doesn't make sense. Like he's been with me for a week. He's eaten every day and he wants his food. Like he wants it, desperately wants his food. [00:27:11] And that doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. How did he lose weight? And they're like, I don't know. So then they found out that he had. A very rare parasitic infection that attacked his liver. He has heart disease. His pneumonia has gotten worse. And then they were trying to figure out the whole, why did he lose weight type situation? [00:27:38] And they ended up doing a scan. They did not think he was going to make it. They just, they didn't know. There was so much going on with him. Like issues as long as my arm, the list was as long as my arm and they didn't think he was going to make it. So the president of the organization, she let me know, she's like, I have to make a really tough decision right now. [00:27:59] Jason: And they put a lot of money towards this dog. The whole, like, a lot, thousands of dollars.  [00:28:03] Sarah: It was, I think his treatment was somewhere, All of it was like over like 7, 000 so far.  [00:28:09] Jason: Yeah, they were really doing everything they could to take care of this dog. But she was at the point where she was like, I think we're going to have to... yeah. [00:28:16] Sarah: Oh, and he was anemic on top of all of that. So he couldn't keep heat in.  [00:28:19] Jason: Okay.  [00:28:20] Sarah: Poor guy.  [00:28:20] Jason: So like, they were about to put him down. Right.  [00:28:25] Sarah: Yeah they decided like it doesn't seem like there's anything like he's too like he's just too far gone and The vet came in the room like with the shot and they said all right, let's give him like one last really awesome meal So they gave him mac and cheese and he Scarfed it down like you wouldn't even believe and that whole day and the whole day before he wasn't moving. [00:28:49] He wasn't walking. He wasn't really interested in anything. He was just very lethargic, very tired. He didn't, he did not care. Mac and cheese, he was like, what is that? Give me all of it. Perked right up for the mac and cheese. So the mac and cheese literally saved his life because he was minutes from being put down. [00:29:08] Said that she has never been that close to putting a dog down and then didn't do it.  [00:29:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:29:14] Yeah, but that gave her hope that, Hey, there's something here. There's some life in him. And he's, You know, he's motivated for some reason.  [00:29:22] Sarah: Yeah. And the vet who was going to euthanize him then, she said, there is something weird with this dog. [00:29:30] Like, it's just, there's something off. We don't know, like, is it okay if we do like the full scan? And she's like, if you think it'll help him, like, if you think that we can figure this out and save him so that he has some quality of life. So  [00:29:45] Jason: because of the mac and cheese, and seeing something that seemed a little bit off, because that like, he was so excited about that and he was eating it, they then did and he perked up, they did the scan and they found what? [00:29:59] Sarah: So in dogs, they call it a mega esophagus. So essentially, his esophagus doesn't work. They think that he may have, back like when he was dumped on the side of the road, and also, I should, we should have said this, he was intact, so we think that he was used for breeding. And then when he got too far along, these fuckers dumped him on the side of the road. [00:30:21] So they're number two on the hit list. I will find them and they're not even far from me. I will go get them. So they dumped him on the side of the road. When he was on the side of the road they think that he either ate something or drank something that was toxic and messed up his whole esophagus. [00:30:38] Yeah. [00:30:39] So that's why he was eating food, but it was all impacted in his esophagus. Hardly any of it was actually getting through to his stomach.  [00:30:47] Jason: Yeah,  [00:30:48] Sarah: so they found that out and Bruni the president of the organization said well wait a second when he was with his fosters like he had a bowel movement So something had to have gotten through like what can we do? [00:30:59] She's like, what if we like prop them up. They have like a little Bailey chair, but they didn't have one there. So they made a makeshift one out of like blankets and cardboard.  [00:31:07] They're like, what if we do like a makeshift Bailey chair, test it for 24 hours, see if any food actually gets through into the stomach because that is a treatable condition. [00:31:17] Now, if they're born with it and then that's really hard. But he wasn't born with it. Something destroyed his esophagus. So they said, oh, that's like, it's a treatable condition. So what if we try this, give him 24 hours, and then he's got to show us that he can get some food and medication down into his stomach because all the medication for all of the problems, it wasn't even getting into his system. [00:31:46] Jason: Medicine, food, nothing was making it.  [00:31:48] Sarah: Nothing. No water. Like he had a couple bowel movements with us. So like Something must have, but not. Not the way he should have been. So after a 24 hour hold, he had a full stomach of food.  [00:32:02] Jason: Yeah, they figured out he just needed gravity. Like they just had to prop him up. [00:32:06] So he's sitting up like a human eating, you know, and he was perfectly happy to eat. Like he was a hungry dog. So then he went to be taken care of full time by the foster organization. Yeah [00:32:18] Sarah: He has multiple medications he has to eat like a very small strict  [00:32:23] Jason: And she has a lot of dogs at her place that she's taking care of so she asked if she had another foster. She said could you take this dog Silver? Yeah So then we got Silver was the next...  [00:32:33] Sarah: oh, wait. The thing I want to say about Maynard is that he had every reason to give up and he had every reason, multiple reasons. [00:32:43] Like he had like literally so many health problems.  [00:32:46] Jason: Yeah. And everybody around him had multiple reasons to give up on him. .  [00:32:48] Sarah: He had every reason to not trust humans and every reason to be like a nasty, vicious dog. And he just wasn't he was not he was so sweet and he loved to like just shove his little smush face into me And just nuzzle it and when it was in there, he still wasn't close enough He was still like pushing trying to get closer Because I think that was the first time he ever experienced love and even though he had every single reason stacked up against him. [00:33:19] Like the odds were not at all in his favor. There's no reason that this dog should technically be alive. It's only because he's so freaking stubborn. He did not want to give up on himself. Even through all of that, even through all of that, he didn't want to give up on himself. So when we were going through all of that, like with him, I was telling people like when I would run my scale calls on Fridays, my our operations call, I was telling people like. [00:33:45] If this dog can go through everything that he went through and still push through whatever is happening in your business, whatever is happening in your life, whatever is happening in your marriage, in your friendships, in your relationships, you can push through it. Because every single time that they thought they had the issue figured out, there were like five more issues that popped up with him. [00:34:08] Jason: Yeah, just tell yourself you're not yet at Maynard level. You can handle it though. He also had a really good support mechanism around him eventually, right? And I think that's also there's a little lesson in that is that you need If you're going to go through tough stuff, it's a lot better to have the right support around you and to have people that believe in you, even when you might feel like giving up, and that, you know, can see that you can be better. [00:34:36] And we need those. We need those people around us. And so if you don't have that in your business, it's probably feeling pretty hard because you're doing, you feel like it's all up to you and you're all on your own. And that's a dumb way to grow business. It just is. All right. Next dog.  [00:34:54] Sarah: Okay. So the medical foster that took Maynard after his second, third ER stint she said, Hey, like I, I cannot take another foster, but I have to take Maynard. [00:35:05] Can you take Silver? And then that gives me room to take Maynard. And I said, so Silver, like this is Austin Bulldog Rescue. They largely work with bulldogs. It's not only bulldogs, but most of them are bulldogs. Silver is not a bulldog. He looks like some sort of terrier. I think he had very terrier fur. But he was little, like 30 pounds. [00:35:28] Very high energy. He was probably like in his teenage phase. They also found him on the side of the road in San Antonio. The sad thing about him, though, is he had like, he was house trained. He had like house manners. So he lived in a house at one point. And Either escaped or was dumped, but he was hanging out with a pack of dogs and the bulldogs He was like, these are my friends and the rescue were saving all the dogs and they were like, okay There's like this other dog like what do we do? [00:35:58] And she's like, well, you can't leave him like come on he's an honorary bulldog now. So so they They fostered him, took him in, and then we had him. We had him for about a week, and he already had some applications coming in on him, and he got rehomed to a family that I think is a great fit for him. [00:36:17] Jason: Yeah.  [00:36:18] Sarah: They're such a good fit.  [00:36:19] Jason: Silver had a lot of energy. Yes. He was like doggy teenager. He had a ton of energy, super excited, loved running around. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:36:30] Sarah: And they're like, we want to go for a walk every day. And we like to go on hikes and we like to go camping and we'll bring the dogs. And I was like, Oh, he would like,  [00:36:37] Jason: he'll love that. [00:36:38] Sarah: He would love that. He would love that. And every dog that Silver saw, he wanted to play with every single one of them. And then they have another dog. So it was just figuring out, are those two going to be nice to each other? And they're great. He was very like respectful of her boundaries, which none of us had seen previous to that. [00:36:57] So that was really good. And they're doing great so far. And then. The woman that adopted him, she sends me pictures of him. Like, she's like, just so you know, he's doing great. I'm like, oh, thank you. Thanks for sending that.  [00:37:09] Jason: All right. Next.  [00:37:11] Sarah: Next is this guy behind me.  [00:37:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:37:14] Sarah: Baby. [00:37:15] So we wanted to do another foster. Bulldogs are a lot of work, like so much work. And we went to a shelter that's local and we were looking, I was looking online for a dog that was not small, but also not large. So he's like 44 pounds ish. He's  [00:37:37] Jason: got a bit of a cough right now.  [00:37:39] Sarah: Yeah, he had kennel cough. [00:37:41] So we're. working on clearing that up with him and they don't know a whole lot about him. They found him as a stray in Round Rock but that's also so sad because he's so sweet and like he's house trained and he's got manners and I'm like, oh, Jason keeps saying he's like this somebody's like some family's dog like they must be missing their dog and I'm like, it was in the shelter for over a month. [00:38:06] So yeah, like Parker goes missing. I'm not sleeping until I find him.  [00:38:11] Jason: Sure. [00:38:11] Sarah: You know, I would there would be a bolo out on it everything like I would call the SWAT team like Everybody would be involved. So now we are fostering Hans and We're looking for a forever family for him. Although we might foster fail and keep them ourselves. [00:38:30] We'll see but we're That's what it called. It's foster fail.  [00:38:33] Jason: Oh. Yeah. This one's hard to not  [00:38:37] Sarah: The first day we got him, the two kids and Jason were already pushing me. They're like, we could just keep him.  [00:38:44] Jason: He's a special dog.  [00:38:45] Sarah: It didn't take long. They're like, we could just, and I thought I was going to be the one who was weak. [00:38:49] I thought I was going to be the one who says like, oh, we should keep him. Like, let's just keep him.  [00:38:54] Jason: Yeah.  [00:38:55] Sarah: And shockingly enough, I was the one that was like, yes, but like, we're fostering so we can help more dogs. And the three of them, they're like, but we can just keep him. He's so perfect. Aren't you perfect? [00:39:07] So if he gets along with our other two, then. I think we might keep them. We'll see. See what happens. So. All right. So there's our dog story. That's the current. That's what Jason wanted to talk about dog thing  [00:39:20] Jason: today. So, you know, gives you a little glimpse into, I guess, what? Our personal lives a little bit. [00:39:27] Some of the things that Sarah cares about that we care about. And yeah, so. Dogs. So if you like dogs, then maybe you enjoyed this episode and maybe you learned something. I don't know. All right. Well, I think that's it for today. Until next time to our mutual growth, everybody, if you're wanting to grow your property management business, you can use some extra support, then reach out to us. [00:39:50] You can check us out at doorgrow. com and be sure to join our free Facebook group. If you are a property management business owner or planning on starting a property management business in the near future, go to doorgrowclub.Com and join our free community and that's it. Bye everybody. [00:40:09] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:40:35] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

As property managers you likely know a little bit about mortgages. But do you know about non-QM loan strategies and how your clients and investors can utilize them? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with Matt from Nexa Mortgage to talk about using non-QM strategies to unlock your portfolio's potential. You'll Learn [05:46] QM loans VS non-QM loans [16:14] Why Jason and Sarah went with non-QM [22:07] Which one should you choose? [26:46] Why should property managers know this? [32:23] What about long-term rentals Tweetables “If you have a great manager, it makes sense to get as many properties as you possibly can, knowing that they are in good hands and they are being taken care of because all you're doing is printing money.” “If you have a way that you can help your investor clients get what they want, which is more deals, it's a win.” “If you are a property manager, you should also be an investor in real estate.” “It's great to manage properties and let's do that and build wealth ourselves.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: He said, "I am not joking. I had to submit over 100 documents to the company in order to just see if I'm qualified to get this additional loan. And he's like, I just feel like there has to be an easier way." And there is, but sometimes people don't know about that.   [00:00:20] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:39] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the CEO and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:23] All right. And today we're hanging out with Matt Dean of Nexa Mortgage, and we're going to have an interesting conversation about financing and loans and I don't know, and some other stuff, but Matt welcome to the show.  [00:01:36] Matthew: Good morning. [00:01:37] Good morning. Thanks for having me.  [00:01:38] Jason: It's good to have you. So give us a little bit of background of how you got into the whole real estate industry and give people a little bit of background on you.  [00:01:49] Matthew: Sure. So, after I graduated from college, which I went to college in Missouri, I ended up moving to Austin, Texas, and one of the first jobs I got was with a commercial finance company and that landed me in Lakeway, which is where I reside now, and have been for over 15 years. But the commercial finance company that I worked with was was a fairly new company that came in from California. The owners Had a mortgage background and had gotten into this commercial finance division. [00:02:15] They had sold off a couple of mortgage companies opened up this division and Lakeway. They were also land developers and commercial finance guys. So they saw a lot of opportunity out here and opened up this company. So anyway, I got in on the ground floor. They were relocating the company here and had a couple year run with that. [00:02:31] And then in early 2000, the .Com kind of came in and blew up that whole industry. So what we were doing was commercial finance, equipment finance really, and at the time it was a lot of computer equipment and I was working with a lot of Dell sales reps that were taking over some of their overflow that Dell didn't want to finance. [00:02:49] So, when all that happened, and it blew up the owners who had the mortgage background really saw that "hey, we're going to see a refinance run here. The market's going to crash rates are going to come down. There's going to be a run." And so they immediately just flip. They had a mortgage company here, but it wasn't early. It was dormant. Yeah. And they flipped it open and and just started building that company out. And so that's ultimately how I got into the mortgage business. And, right after that, we had this really big refinance run. We grew that company very quickly to about 35 employees where we were doing 300 to 400 loans a month with a fairly small company. [00:03:27] And that just, jump straight in and learn the business. And so then in about 2007 ish, 2006 ish, I really got exposed to the investment world, so to speak. I got partnered up with a real estate brokerage here in Austin that focused on investment properties and primarily what they were focusing on was duplexes. [00:03:47] And so that year in 2006, I believe it closed 152 duplex transactions, and it was mainly California investors coming into Austin. And it really just changed my whole perspective of the mortgage industry as opposed to first time buyers or veterans, which I enjoy working with all those folks, but the commercial or the investment world, it's a different animal in that it's less emotion and more about business. And so I really just gravitated more to working with investors, started buying properties myself managed a few properties myself and then, evolved from there. But I worked with that same group and Lakeway for about 12 years and then moved around a couple of places and work for a builder and and a couple other companies. [00:04:29] But anyway, that's how I got in it, got started.  [00:04:31] Jason: Yeah, so you've seen it from a few different angles than the whole real estate investment industry, sounds like. [00:04:37] Matthew: Yeah, I've been through a few of these cycles of ups and downs. Obviously the refinance run early on was, really interesting, but a lot of good, easy money on the table, so to speak, but then we had the crash, which was a very difficult time for a couple of years, although, Austin weathered that storm pretty well relative to a lot of other areas of the country. [00:04:56] So, even though our volumes were down, our real estate didn't see as big of an equity loss and the job market here in Austin's always been really strong. So, it pulled us back out of it fairly quickly. We're in a situation now where rates are high and property values have gone up. [00:05:11] And it's a challenge for some folks here to purchase. A lot of folks are just priced out of the market and can't afford it. And property taxes aren't helping that situation.  [00:05:19] Jason: Yeah,  [00:05:20] Sarah: It's so pricey here. So pricey.  [00:05:22] Matthew: But we're starting to see a little bit of pull back on the values and the houses. It's a little bit more of a buyer's market now, but it still needs to come down a little bit, I think in my opinion, it's to balance the market again.  [00:05:34] Jason: Interesting. So the topic today is unlock your portfolio potential, non QM strategies for real estate investors. And for those that don't know what QM is, which I don't. So educate me. What's QM?  [00:05:47] Sarah: So I handled all of this stuff and Jason got to the closing table and he's like, "I'm an owner in the LLC, right?"  [00:05:54] Matthew: It's like, yeah, I barely talked to you along the way, but anyway, yeah, so let's talk a little bit about QM and how that all started. So, after the real estate crash in the 2006, 2007, eight ish area the CFPB was formed a consumer finance protection bureau, which took over the regulation with the mortgage industry. [00:06:12] It took them a few years, but in 2014 they implemented what was called TRID, which you may have heard that word, but it was where we got rid of the good faith estimate and integrated the new loan estimate and closing disclosure took over. And at that same point in time, the regulations came out and then classified conventional loans or reclassified them as qualified mortgages. [00:06:35] What that means really is the CFPB was trying to put protections in place to protect consumers and also strengthen guidelines to make sure that people or buyers had the ability to repay. So what that really meant was additional restrictions on ability to repay, debt ratio requirements, reserve assets, et cetera. [00:06:55] So, if you do a conventional loan, which is Fannie, Freddie. Those are considered qualified mortgages. They have additional protections in that you're maxed at the amount of fees you can charge a buyer. The APR has to be within guidelines within a maximum. So all those things are really for consumer protection, right? [00:07:14] At the same time, what caused the market crash before was what subprime mortgages. And so at the time, subprime mortgages initially had a place in the market. They really were good for investors because investors were putting money down, they had good credit typically, and they had reserve assets. [00:07:35] When the market shifted, and they started using subprime loans to qualify buyers for primary residences that really had no business buying homes is where it got in trouble. So after QM was announced or came out with CFPB, then they also had non QM loans. What that means is any loan that falls outside of the qualified mortgage guidelines, for whatever reason, can still be funded or it would fall within non QM. [00:07:59] Non QM just meant if you're a lender who does those type of loans, you're now required to hold additional reserve assets in your bank or your mortgage company per loan to cover for the potential higher risk and default.  [00:08:12] Jason: Okay.  [00:08:13] Matthew: And it took a few years from 2014. The market started to come out with products in 2015. [00:08:18] The industry was really not sure how to handle it. A lot of banks didn't want to even dive into it. And then it started to evolve. And "okay, there's a big market here." So now it's one of the fastest growing segments of the market and banks have realize or figured out how to meet the ability to repay guidelines with alternative methods, right? [00:08:41] So you don't have to have W2s and tax returns and pay stubs, which a conventional QM loan would require. Now, they look at different factor, like, 12 months business bank statements. I can look at a CPA prepared profit and loss statement, I can look at just the rent income on the property and that's what's classified or called DSCR. [00:09:03] And then also it's asset based loans where we just look at the asset and we turn the asset into a revenue stream. So that's really how non QM started and really what it is. It's just an alternative way of qualifying the mortgages that falls outside of the Fannie Freddie conventional type of loans. [00:09:21] Jason: Got it.  [00:09:21] Sarah: So what does that mean for investors? Because we have some investors that listen to us and we have some property managers who work with investors. So what would that mean for an investor that is looking to get into more investment properties?  [00:09:39] Matthew: Yeah, absolutely. So, the challenge that a lot of investors run into is a lot of them are self employed and a lot of them start accumulating property. [00:09:48] So if they fall into either one of those categories, either they're self employed. Or they've accumulated a lot of properties or both, right? The challenge becomes with qualified mortgages is from an income perspective, right? So good CPAs are going to try and shelter income for self employed borrowers and for investors by showing, minimal profits or minimal or losses on their properties. [00:10:11] And so, as investors start to accumulate more properties, it becomes more challenging to qualify for conventional loans, because for every property on a conventional loan, Fannie and Freddie want additional reserve assets. So that means you start getting 6 properties, you need assets for each one of those properties on top of down payment funds for the purchase property and the reserves on that property. [00:10:33] So, from two perspectives, either an income perspective, where we have a challenge again, a self employed borrower shows losses on his tax returns for the last 5 years by design, because he doesn't want to pay taxes, or we've got multiple properties also showing losses when I'm looking at income on a conventional loan basis, I have to use the income from the tax return. [00:10:52] So losses can be a problem. Also, the reserve requirements, so, taking into those two scenarios, you've got a self employed borrower that, let's say they, they have gross revenue of half a million dollars, but they're showing losses of, 50-60-70,000 dollars. We're just looking at 12 months bank statements in that case, which gives us gross revenue and then we back out of a factor of say, 25 to 30 percent for taxes and we use that as revenue or income to qualify. If we have an investor that, let's say, not necessarily self employed they have multiple rental properties that are basically just, showing losses and now their income is diminished to where they can't qualify. [00:11:32] Then we have the debt service coverage ratio programs. Like, we utilize with your property where we're looking at just the rent on the property. Right? So the rent the market rent or the short term rental just needs to cover the principal interest, taxes, insurance and fees. And so those are 2 products that we use and that's really how, I would say it helps investors in those scenarios. [00:11:54] The other products that we could look at are P& L products meaning that ACPA provides a P& L statement, and then we can use that income, or if they have significant assets just in investment funds and whatnot, we can turn that into a revenue stream. But the bottom line is it just eliminates the need for W 2s, tax returns, or pay stubs, and we look at other alternative income sources to qualify. [00:12:18] Sarah: It's funny. I was actually on Instagram the last week, I think. And there's this guy, he has a very large account and I can't remember his name. And he's very big on investing in real estate. And he said, "guys, like, I just need some help. I like I'm going through this whole process and you jumped through 10, 000 hoops." and he said, "I am not joking. I had to submit over 100 documents to the company in order to just see if I'm qualified to get this additional loan. And he's like, I just feel like there has to be an easier way." And there is, but sometimes people don't know about that. I still talk to investors and property managers and they don't know. [00:13:02] They're like, "I'm just too conventional. That's like what you do. That's like the normal thing that we're all trained and used to doing." So just knowing that there are other options that don't require all of these crazy hoops to jump through and all of this documentation and lots of red tape and underwriting. [00:13:22] It's not that it's eliminated. It's just that it's a lot easier of a process and especially if you're a savvy investor that takes a loss on your taxes, just because your tax return shows a loss, it doesn't actually mean that you're losing money, right? So there's a big difference there. So that plays a big part too. [00:13:43] Matthew: Yeah, there are investors. Sorry. I didn't mean to jump in there, but there are definitely investors that lean on that from a documentation standpoint. Right? They've been down this road. They have multiple properties and more properties, you have the more documentation you need to provide to try and qualify for those conventional loans and it just becomes more and more challenging. [00:14:00] And, even more so if you have a loan officer on the front end of that's trying to originate a loan, that isn't really versed in investment properties and doesn't know how to underwrite the tax returns, they can get in trouble. They look, "oh, I got good credit. I've got down payments." But when you try and pull together tax returns and the income from multiple properties and business losses and this and that, it becomes very complex. And it's honestly, a lot of loan officers don't even know how to look at that correctly. And so they just throw the file up. It goes to underwriting. And then 2 weeks later, they've got a problem. But I just closed a deal actually yesterday and it was ended up going non QM short term rental. And the gentleman is great credit owns his own businesses, owns multiple properties and schools here, but the documentation, because he owns, like, 8 companies and probably 7 or 8 rental properties, and he had a partner in this particular property that, It became so complicated with trying to pull some of that stuff together and also with the partner who wasn't necessarily as strong as him where it just made sense for us to go short term rental and move on. [00:15:07] And that's what we did. So we just made it easy. He was happy that he didn't have to continue to jump through all those hoops. And we were able to get the property done and close in about two and a half weeks.  [00:15:17] Jason: You said it made sense to go short term rental. You meant to go non QM. Is that what you meant? [00:15:21] Matthew: To go non QM. Yeah. We went short term rental income, which is non QM to qualify the income on the property. This happens to be a short term rental down on the Comal River and it's got great income. It just he had a private money loan on it when he purchased it needed to refinance the note was coming due and he just has a very complex financial situation. [00:15:43] And he got involved with a partner on this property that also created some challenges with that particular situation and just made it a lot easier to use him and go non QM short term rental income only and just get it done.  [00:15:54] Jason: So, would that be a DSCR loan going on the short term rental income? [00:15:59] Or is that different?  [00:15:59] Matthew: Yes, it is technically a DSCR loan, which means debt service coverage ratio. And this is what we utilize with your property as well, by the way. we're looking at either long term rents.  [00:16:10] Jason: We should tell that story, by the way, everyone listening has no clue. [00:16:13] Sarah: I know, right?  [00:16:14] Jason: Why don't we have Sarah explain like why we went this route, how we ended up talking with Matt and like how this all worked out.  [00:16:21] Sarah: Okay, let's do that. So, Jason, oddly proudly, he's like, "I've never owned a rental property and I've never managed a rental property. And I do this now." And I said, "this is nothing to be proud of. Like you're 46, you should own things. You should have assets." So like I, on the other hand, like I had, in my twenties, I started investing in real estate. So, Jason and I for a while have been saying like, "when are we going to get one together?" [00:16:48] Because we didn't have one yet and he never had one.  [00:16:51] Then also our circumstances in life have changed a little bit. And we thought " we need an additional property at this point." And we were in a unique situation where right now in Austin, I'll just start by saying long term rental is hard to make it make sense financially. [00:17:10] You're probably not going to cashflow.  [00:17:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:17:13] Sarah: Not right now. Anyway, it's just, it's really hard because prices are high. And interest rates are also high. This is where we are. So we couldn't have possibly done a long term rental anyway, because we needed the property to have some personal use on it. [00:17:28] And we decided, "Hey, let's also use it for some of our DoorGrow events." Because every time that we do an event, We pay somebody else.  [00:17:37] So let's pay ourselves through that. So for that reason, it only can really be used as a short term rental property. So we decided, "Hey, there's these kind of three components." [00:17:48] And I'm really big on asset protection, meaning I need the property to be owned and deeded and financed in an LLC. So originally I was working with another agent. We've worked with him before on our primary home. He's a really great agent. I had asked him about, "can we fund it in the name of an LLC?" [00:18:09] And he said, "no you can't do that. It doesn't really work that way." And it seemed like he was just trying to talk us out of it. I even talked with that he typically uses and that we used on our, Home that we live in. And he said, "Oh no, yeah, we don't do properties in the LLC. It'll be in your name. And then after closing, we could do a quick claim and then like change the deed and put the deed in the LLC name." And I said, "okay, what about the mortgage?" And he said, "no. The mortgage stays in your name." And I said, "I'm out." Like that is where I'm out. You're piercing the veil. [00:18:44] All of my personal assets would now be exposed and on the line. And that completely defeats the purpose of having an LLC. And he was like, yeah, we just don't do that. I really don't think that's going to be a problem. So I said, "okay, do you know anybody now he's been in this business for like 20 or 30 years?" [00:19:02] "Do you know anybody that can do that?" And he said, "Oh, not really." So that was time to start looking for somebody else because I know that it can be done. I've done it in Pennsylvania. So there's no way that Texas can't do this. Texas is far ahead of Pennsylvania in a lot of different ways.  [00:19:19] Jason: So we found another agent. [00:19:20] Sarah: So we found another agent who then referred us to Matt and he said, "Hey, I know a guy. He's really great. And I'm pretty sure he can do what you need." So I said, "great. What's his information?" I had a conversation with Matt and he's like, "Oh, well, yeah, we can do that." And I said, "so you can put the loan in the LLC. Not my name, the LLC. He said yeah, we can do that." Like it was easy. So it can be done. Sometimes you just have to look around a little bit. So that was how our deal was structured. So we went non QM and we ended up doing, since it is a short term rental, we went DSCR so that the rents would cover essentially your PITI. [00:20:00] And this is how we made our deal work. So we closed PITI. [00:20:06] Jason: PITI for the listeners is...  [00:20:07] Sarah: principal interest taxes insurance. [00:20:11] Matthew: Yeah, so, I know that was how our conversation started was, " can we do this in the LLC?" And we walked through that and the pros and cons a little bit, I think, and that's one thing that conventional QM loans don't really not really, they don't allow that. You cannot fund in an LLC. [00:20:25] Now, what happens is a lot of people like you were advised, "hey, fund it in your name, slip it to the LLC later." That can cause some problems because Fannie Mae does have due on sale clauses in their loan documents. So, technically, if there's an ownership change, that note can be called due. Typically, you can just flip it back into your name and stop that process, but it becomes a cat and mouse game back and forth if you have a servicer that's trying to, exercise that for some reason, it doesn't happen very often. It's not a very high risk, but it's definitely something you need to be aware of. On the non QM side, the lenders want these, or most of them prefer them to be funded into LLCs because non QM as a whole is considered business purpose lending. [00:21:11] It falls outside of the consumer protection, finance protection Bureau oversight. So, it's considered or classified more of like a commercial loan. And so most of them require, or want you to fund into an LLC. There are some that will do them in their personal names. It's interesting. They follow more of a conventional loan program, which I'm not really sure I understand, because they issue a closing disclosure and they look at loan estimates, even though it's considered a non loan. So they just handle a little bit differently. Those companies will allow you to do it in your name and some of them are doing a lot of those companies are also doing primary residences under a non QM basis. So bank statement products for somebody who may be self employed also trying to buy a primary residence. That's where I see it more. Most of the the LLC stuff is for investors and those lenders are going to. Really prefer or require it to be in an LLC. [00:22:07] Jason: Got it. Okay, cool. So what should investors know in order to make the decision as to which way they should go? Like, how do you make the deciding factor? Like, what are some of the things that kind of weigh into this?  [00:22:20] Matthew: Yeah, I think really it's a conversation initially of can they qualify for a conventional loan? Do they understand what non QM loans have to offer? A lot of investors aren't familiar with the details of non QM loans, how they work, how they can help them. So it's really an education conversation of, what options we may have available. Right? I would always start with the conventional loans typically and, see if we can qualify. If you can go that route and you're putting 25 percent down you're going to get a little bit better interest rates. And then you don't have some of the other key factors that come with non QM loans. So most non QM loans do have some sort of prepayment penalty because they're selling these to a secondary hedge fund investor that wants a minimum return. So, in most cases, you're going to have a prepayment penalty in a conventional loan. Stay out of point. A QM loan legally cannot have a prepayment penalty. [00:23:14] So there's a big difference there. But as far as qualifying them, it's a really, like I said, an education and a conversation about what their profile looks like. Right? They self employed. Do they own multiple properties? Are they showing losses or profits on those properties? And then, really documenting that, 9 times out of 10, what I'm told on a verbal conversation doesn't match what I get on the documentation that way. [00:23:38] "Oh, my business makes this," but they're talking about gross revenue, not net income. They're talking about gross rent amounts, not the net income they're showing on their tax returns. So it needs to go the next level. But that initial conversation may determine quite quickly that, hey, we need to go non for what reason or, because they want to fund it in an LLC, because the property is really a short term rental, but it doesn't but they don't have any history of short term rental management. [00:24:07] And let's talk just a little bit about, how you look at the short term rental. I know that's what we were talking a little bit about before we talked about your loan, right? So there's 2 ways to look at that short term rental and it's either from well, the rental income short term or long term can either come from an appraiser. [00:24:23] Or from a software program that some lenders are now using. So a lot of lenders will lean on a typical, appraisal to an appraiser to come up with whatever that market rent may be. And like, like, you said, it's difficult to cash flow properties in Austin or in Texas. On long term rents simply because the property taxes have escalated and now with higher interest rates. [00:24:48] So a lot of times, the short term rental is really from a lending perspective an easier way to qualify the property for 1. But we do have the ability to look at it from two different perspectives and this is what we utilized on your loan. So I'll just talk about a little bit. So I have a couple lenders that will look at the short term rental from a software perspective. [00:25:05] Right? So in your case. When we had the discussion, it was really a matter of, yeah, "I really want to put 20 percent down. I don't want to put additional money down. That would be more important to me than a little bit higher interest rate. Right?" And so, when we look at different lenders that may be leaning on an appraisal. [00:25:21] I don't know what that number is for 2 weeks and me personally I feel like appraisers, especially in the short term rental market. Are a little bit lazy and sometimes they just don't have the data. So what happens is I submitted to the lender based on an 80 percent loan to value. And then all of a sudden, my short term rental income comes back low or lower than what we may have expected. [00:25:42] And now that's requiring you to put an additional 5 percent down to meet their guidelines of a debt service coverage ratio less than one or go no ratio, right? We still have an option, but the option is going to require you to put a little bit more money down. And so. Again, we have two ways to look at it either an appraisals given us that number or with some investors. [00:26:00] And this is why I like working with some of those in that case. Like I said, your most important factor is 20 percent down. so I took it to a lender that gave me that short term rental number within 48 hours. They ran it through their system. They gave it to me immediately and said, "this is where we should be." As soon as we submitted the loan to underwriting within 2 days, we had an approval and this was confirmed short term rental amount. We didn't have to wait on the appraiser and it didn't matter what the appraiser's opinion was. They already confirmed what we were going to use, which confirmed that I could get your loan approved with just 20 percent down. So, that's a preferred method in a lot of ways, especially if we're trying to keep that 20 percent down number. [00:26:38] If we have somebody that's putting 25-30 percent down, then it's. A little bit less relevant and we can, decide what option might be best for them at that point.  [00:26:46] Jason: Got it. So why should property managers who are constantly wanting to do more deals, help more investors, why should they have somebody like Matt in their back pocket? [00:26:57] Sarah: Oh, that's such a good question. Well, I want to think of it kind of twofold. One, I feel like if you are a property manager, you should also be an investor in real estate. Real estate agents just by having access to the MLS. No, that's not where all deals come from. I know that, but just by having access to the MLS and the connections that you have as a real estate agent and property manager, there's no chance that you don't come across amazing deals all the time. [00:27:23] There's no chance. So capitalize on that.  [00:27:26] You should also be an investor yourself. It's great to manage properties and let's do that and build wealth ourselves. Yeah. So that's number one. But number two is if you're like, "well, I like, I don't know, I'm unsure, or maybe I have one property or two properties and I don't know if I'm ready to continue to build a portfolio." [00:27:46] Or you're like, "Hey, I have X many properties and I'm happy right here. I don't want any more." I don't know why, but maybe you are. So if that's the case and you have investor clients that very likely would love to get into more deals themselves. And it would be great for you because now if you have an investor and they manage five doors, but that same investor can now manage 10, 20, 38. [00:28:11] That's fantastic because now your business is growing. So if you have a way that you can help your investor clients get what they want, which is more deals, it's a win because yes, the savvy investors, they're always looking for more deals. Jason's hooked now. He said to me, we closed and he was like, "how do we do another one? like, how do we do another one?" He's like, "how fast can we do another one? Like Sarah, is it possible if we do like one property a year," right? And he did. Yeah, he did. There's a lot of investors like that because once you get it. Once you really get to see all of the benefits and just how freaking beautiful it is to be a real estate investor and make money and get all of the tax benefits that you don't get in almost any other sector. [00:28:54] It's amazing. So why would you not want more of that? So if you're a property manager, it would make so much sense for you to just be able to educate your investor clients. "Hey, have you ever thought of picking up more properties?" The answer probably is going to be "yes," especially if you're doing a great job for them as a property manager. [00:29:14] Because that's a tricky part is, "well, I could buy a bunch of properties, but who's going to manage them?" If you have a great manager, it makes sense to get as many properties as you possibly can, knowing that they are in good hands and they are being taken care of because all you're doing is printing money. [00:29:30] So if you want to grow your portfolio by adding additional deals to the clients that you already have. It's like so simple, right? Why would we not do that? So having options. that not everybody knows about. It's fantastic.  [00:29:47] Jason: So in short, this just gives them a lot more options to work with because investors want to invest, and they may think, "Oh, well, I've only got this much down or I can only do a conventional, I can only do it this way. I need to meet certain criteria" or "I've just declared all these losses."  [00:30:04] Sarah: "Like I have too much debt." Maybe their like debt to income is a little maxed out because we're, keeping up with the Joneses. This is so normal, right? So that and Matt's laughing. He sees it all the time. [00:30:15] I bet he's like, "Oh, we went a little too high on that one." [00:30:18] there's good debt and bad debt though as well, right?  [00:30:21] Correct. However, if you own five properties or six properties or seven properties, every additional property that you have that is leveraged, meaning that you have a mortgage on it, that's counting against you and your debt to income ratio. [00:30:35] Jason: Right. So it gets harder and harder using conventional to get into more property.  [00:30:40] Sarah: Unless you're the Fed and you can just print money.  [00:30:42] Jason: Well, I don't know if they're buying  [00:30:44] Matthew: a lot of money.  [00:30:44] But you bring up a good point and just to clarify when we do a debt service coverage ratio program, I'm not looking at any of your debt. [00:30:52] I'm not looking at a debt ratio calculation at all. And if you own multiple properties, I'm not even looking at any of those other properties for any sort of rent, income, verification, mortgage, anything. This one is a business, right? Correct. It's it. Well, it's just debt service coverage on that subject property, right? [00:31:10] Does the rent cover the note? And do we have enough money for down payment and reserves on that property alone? We don't look at reserves for those additional properties like you would a conventional. So you got five properties. I don't care about reserves on those. I'm only looking at the subject property. [00:31:24] So, yes, debt to income is a big factor and I think, if we're talking to property management companies, it's really just an education or a knowledge of what potentially could be out there. Right? Like you said, they have opportunities to buy all the time. I would think that the savvy property manager is going to scoop those up if they can, but are they aware of these programs? [00:31:44] Or do they think that? "Oh, my debt to income is too high or I have losses on my tax returns that I'm going to have trouble qualifying." And then you also have your network of investors that you manage those properties for that potentially are looking for additional doors, but they're not aware of these programs in some cases. [00:32:00] So, yeah, it's just a matter of, I think, education and just getting the information out there. So that some of these people know what options are available.  [00:32:09] Jason: Well, it sounds like it shifts the conversation from, "can we?" Yeah. Maybe it's a no, in their thought, in their mind to "how can we?" Like, there's other creative ways that things could be done instead of saying, "Oh, it's gotta be this one way we've always done it. That's the only way." So, what about for long term rentals? Which like some of the investors listening and a lot of our clients listening may not do a short term.  [00:32:32] Sarah: You can still do a non QM on a long term, especially in Austin. Now, other markets, you might find a cashflow. Like I have a cashflow property in Pennsylvania. [00:32:40] It's a rare gem guys, but in Austin, it's hard to get something to cashflow, especially right now.  [00:32:47] Matthew: Okay, so there's two ways to look at it again. There's, or I guess, multiple ways to look at it. Not just two, but bank statements if I'm looking at it. So, if they're self employed, and they have a business that we can lean on the bank statements, right? [00:32:59] That's my income qualifier and no longer care about that negative potential cash flow on the property in the rent. Right? So that's one way. If I'm doing debt service coverage and I'm looking at long term rental, I have a client that wants to long term rented. They're not going to be comfortable stating short term rental on the application. [00:33:17] They really have no desire to do that. Then I have to look at the short term rent. Now, what that's typically going to end up, at least in Austin, what's typically going to end up happening is that property is going to have a problem cash flowing at 20 percent down or 80 percent equity. Right? So what happens is it now pushes us to. [00:33:34] A bigger down payment, a larger down payment, 25 percent 30%. And then we have the options with those lower loan values to do either no ratio or lower debt coverage ratio loan programs. Right? So. If it falls below 100%, meaning 100 percent rent coverage with PITI coverage which principal interest taxes, insurance and HOA fees all come into that play. But let's just say it's a little bit short. I've got a PITI of 2000 dollars of my rent's 1800. well, the lender is going to do one or two things. Are you going to say, "well, we need more down to get that to 100%." Or "we're going to reclassify it as a higher risk and we'll do, some of them will go down to 75 percent debt coverage, but it's a little bit higher rate." [00:34:18] Or "we have to go to a little bit larger down payment and go no ratio, right?" No ratio means we just eliminate that altogether. And it's typically 30 percent down. So, we have options to look at but it is definitely a little bit harder if we're looking at long term rents simply because it's harder to cash flows at 20%, unless again, unless we have larger down payments or larger equity positions, for refinances to soak. [00:34:42] A lot of these let's talk about that too, you have some of your property management clients that may want to purchase more properties where they could extract equity out of these homes to use to purchase more property. So there's a lot of the refinance going on with those properties to under a non QM basis, because they again, they can't qualify for a full doc for whatever reasons. [00:35:03] Right? But there are options to pull cash out under a non QM basis and utilize those funds to reinvest.  [00:35:09] Jason: Got it. So say they've got five, 10 properties, it's getting really difficult for them to qualify for a QM loan. They could maybe pull some equity out of their existing properties, do like a cash out refi, and then use that money to fund a bigger down payment to do a non QM scenario. [00:35:28] Matthew: Absolutely. Absolutely. The challenge right now in the market with refinances in general is a lot of these people have really good rates on those properties. And so they don't necessarily want to refinance and lose that low rate understandably. Right? So. In other states, you have a the ability to do HELOCs or he loans, which are second liens, Texas, it's a little bit limited. [00:35:47] There's not as many products available, especially on the investment side. There are ways to extract some of that equity and reposition it to be reinvested in other investment opportunities. And I will say that we do have the ability to do the same type of loans on small commercial properties. [00:36:04] Like, up to I've got one lender that kind of specializes in that small commercial that goes up to 24 units. So, between 5 and 24 unit apartment buildings, we're also looking at a non QM type debt service coverage loan, which is what commercial loans look at in general anyway. Commercial loans are based on cash flow, right? [00:36:23] It's all debt service coverage based on that. But in that small apartment complex arena, you've got a lot of these kind of more residential lenders that are focusing and specializing in it. Because it's a piece of the market that's left out, right? Your commercial lenders don't want to touch something that's a few 100, 000 dollars. They have minimums of 5Million dollars, 3Million dollars. And so you have these smaller properties that are great investments in some cases that also have challenges getting loans, not because of the property, but because of the size of the loan.  [00:36:55] Jason: It's just not big enough for him. [00:36:56] So Matt what areas do you cover personally? And then how do people find somebody like you, how did they find somebody like you? Like, this was a challenge we had to ask around what do people look for to find somebody that can help them with some more creative options?  [00:37:11] Matthew: That's a good question. I wish more people would know how to find me. So maybe you can help me with that. But yeah, it's just, it's interesting. There's a lot of loan officers that just don't, I guess maybe they're scared of the non QM space. They don't understand it. They're scared of change, so to speak, and so they just go, "I've never done that. And I don't know anything about it and they don't want to learn about it." it's the fastest growing segment of the market right now. Fannie Mae is pushing a lot of the paper towards non QM from a risk perspective. They want to get away from it. They're making investment rates in terms unattractive, so to speak, so they're offloading it that way. But, I think it's really through the real estate agents is probably the best way to get in touch with somebody like me, if they're familiar with it. But what's interesting is even your agent from McLean that I work a lot with Brett. [00:38:00] He wasn't 100 percent versed in these products either. So. Fortunately, he got me, right?  [00:38:05] Sarah: Yeah. Thank you, Brett.  [00:38:07] Matthew: But, yeah, as far as if you have somebody that's questions, I'm always available to potentially educate people in regards to these programs. As far as where I do business, I'm legally licensed in Texas and Arizona, meaning national mortgage licensing, which is the, the CFPB license. [00:38:22] Now, with non QM loans about 35 states don't require you to have a license within that state. So I can do non QM debt service coverage all these type of loans that we talked about in about 34 different states. Just with my national license and because they consider a business purpose use, it's classified as a commercial loan in those states, and they don't have these overbearing laws like California does or Nevada. So there are some states that it's difficult unless you want to jump through a bunch of hoops to do it. And unless there's enough volume, there hasn't made sense for me to do it. [00:38:55] I just focus on the ones that I can, which is a big piece of the country and we can help folks in those 30 some states, 34 states, whatever it is.  [00:39:03] Jason: So there's maybe 15, 16 states that you can't cover.  [00:39:06] Matthew: It's the New York the Pacific Northwest and California, most of the middle of the country around Texas we can do. [00:39:14] I know you, you referred me to somebody in Utah the other day, they happen to be a state that requires licensing, but their licensing is pretty reasonable. So, if there was an opportunity or a reason, for some volume to come out of there, I could get licensed fairly quickly. [00:39:28] And some of these states, because I already hold a national license within them. I passed the test for that, which means you just have to take the state piece of that exam to then get licensed. Be able to do loans there, which is fairly simple. And as long as you're not in New York or California or somebody that has these crazy laws,  [00:39:44] Sarah: What's to invest there anyway, come on, like squatters and all this, like? [00:39:48] Matthew: I know, right? [00:39:49] I don't know how everybody does loans in New York. I hear it takes 90 days to close a loan.  [00:39:54] Jason: There's plenty of investors in those markets. I'm sure people listening. All right. Cool. Well, Matt, it's been great having you here on the DoorGrow show. Appreciate you being our guest. How can people find you or get in touch with you? [00:40:06] If they're wanting to reach out and find out if they're one of those 34 states.  [00:40:10] Matthew: Well, my number if you want my phone number is 512 415 6142. You can Google Nexa my name. I think if you Google my name and Nexa mortgage that come up quite a bit on the Google nexahomelending.Com is my personal website. [00:40:27] That's probably the two best ways to reach out to me just text or email and I'm more than happy to help you in any way that I can.  [00:40:34] Jason: Perfect. Well, it sounds like this is at least a key or just a tool or an idea that every property manager listening should probably have in their back pocket. [00:40:44] You should have some sort of connection to a more creative lender than you may have currently. And so, connect with Matt or maybe, I don't know, start Googling non QM lenders in your market. I don't know, but find somebody or ask around to some real estate agents, but see if you can get somebody that can help with getting some of these deals because investors, they have money, they have equity and, but they're not doing deals and they want to probably do more deals and they just need somebody creative enough to help them find some solutions or interesting ways to make it happen. [00:41:13] So, all right. Well, again, Matt, thanks for being on the show. Appreciate you.  [00:41:17] Matthew: My pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.  [00:41:19] Jason: All right. Well, everybody, if you are interested in growing your business, your property management business, reach out to us, you can check us out at doorgrow.Com. And until next time, everybody to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.  [00:41:30] Matthew: Great. Thank you. Talk to you guys soon. Bye. [00:41:32] Jason: you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:41:59] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

If you are a property management entrepreneur, you have likely been your own salesperson or BDM at some point. Eventually, every property management business owner will need to hire a salesperson and develop different growth engines. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about their BDM Bootcamp event You'll Learn [01:52] What is a BDM? [03:00] Get your BDM Ready for BDM Bootcamp [08:42] You Need a Sales Pipeline! [14:26] Benefits of In-Person Events Tweetables “It's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine, and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline.” “Your pipeline will literally never ever work if you don't even have one.” “If you're not working the pipeline and you don't know the different stages of a pipeline, you're just guessing, and you're just hoping.” “You need to get to the real pain and related that you need to get to the real pleasure, like what they really want. Nobody really wants property management” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: It's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline or you're tolerating drop off at one of these stages.  [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing a business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:36] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, Jason and Sarah Hull. [00:01:15] Now let's get into the show. All right. So today we're going to be talking about BDMs.  [00:01:24] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:01:26] Jason: In honor of this event that we have coming up, which is. Going to be super cool. I don't know that there's been anything like this. That's been as cool as this that's existed in the property management space, maybe ever. [00:01:39] There's a lot of people that talk about BDMs, but there's very few that are actually getting BDMs to get great results. And we're going to be hosting a BDM bootcamp. And so Before we go any further, every time I start talking about BDMs, as if everybody knows what it is. I just talked to a guy with, I think, 800 doors the other day. [00:02:00] He's like, "what's a BDM?" I was like, man, okay, I need to make sure I explained this. BDMs are business development managers. Sometimes they're called BDs, business developers and they're salespeople for property management. That's what people will call them, right? Business development can happen in any industry. [00:02:18] But the reason we use the phrase BDM in property management is because property management is closely connected to real estate. And whenever you mentioned sales, people get it confused with real estate brokerage sales type of stuff. And that's why. Now everybody knows what a BDM is, and we're going to be talking a little bit about that today. [00:02:37] Sarah: Okay.  [00:02:38] Jason: So anyone listening to the show, you better know what a BDM is from now on. That's it.  [00:02:43] Sarah: There's a quiz at the end.  [00:02:44] Jason: What is a BDM? Did you get it right? If not, go back and start this episode over.  [00:02:49] Sarah: Try again.  [00:02:51] Jason: Okay. All right. What do we talk...? Do you want to like tell them about the event? [00:02:56] What do we want to talk about?  [00:02:58] Sarah: Yes. Tell them about the event. So we are launching a BDM bootcamp. So there's a lot of companies that promote getting BDMs. And there's a lot of companies that promote getting BDMs and then spending a bunch of money to run ads and get leads and pay for leads and then have the BDM work the leads. [00:03:21] And then if you just want the BDM to close more deals, it's simple. All you have to do is spend more money and buy more leads. Which is really expensive and wildly ineffective. So we have strategies that BDMs use...  [00:03:35] Jason: that actually work  [00:03:37] Sarah: ...that are free, or at least very inexpensive. [00:03:40] You might have to pay for lunch. That's okay. You get something out of it too. And we've decided that we're going to launch a BDM, aka salesperson, boot camp. It's going to be a one day training. And we've never done anything like this before. For those of you that are current clients, there's some trainings on DoorGrow Academy. [00:04:01] We run every wednesday, our growth accelerator calls, but it's hard to amass all of this information that Jason and I have learned about sales over the last, what, 20 something years and put it in a course. Or talk about it on a one hour call. It's darn near impossible, right? So what we wanted to do is we wanted to take some of this information and spend one day going over all of it. [00:04:31] Now, this is very likely going to end up being a series because we can probably talk about sales and strategies and tactics and how to improve your scripts and what to say and like NLP language and filler words and all this good stuff, we can go over this for probably days on end. So what we're doing is this is very likely going to end up being a series, but we're going to launch the first one in April, so for those of you that are watching live, you all have a chance to get in on that for those of you that are watching this recording is will probably be released after the event, but don't fret because  [00:05:11] Jason: you may have missed it.  [00:05:12] Sarah: You might have missed it. Oh, man.  [00:05:15] Jason: Maybe you should get in our Facebook group and pay attention to the live streams. [00:05:19] So you don't miss stuff.  [00:05:20] Sarah: Sometimes we do some cool things that you need to know about right now.  [00:05:23] Jason: The Facebook group, go to doorgrowclub.Com apply. We reject 70 percent of the applicants, which is why the group is good.  [00:05:31] Sarah: Okay.  [00:05:32] Jason: Okay.  [00:05:32] Sarah: Anyway. So that was our shameless plug. All right. No, right. Go ahead. [00:05:36] If you've missed it. Yeah, we don't have a word from ourselves yet. That's a great idea. Who wants to sponsor this podcast? We'll plug you on every episode. Talk to me, baby. So anyway, if you've missed it. Sad for you, but don't fret because there's going to be more of these. This won't be a once and done thing. [00:05:55] So for those of you that are listening now and or hear the information before the event, then this is going to be for you. So here's the information. It will be Thursday, April 11th. So this is also open to anyone on your team who handles sales, meaning it might be you, it might be somebody else. You may have multiple people on the team who handle sales. So if you would like Jason and myself to train your salespeople for a day. This is a really great opportunity for you because that's exactly what we're doing. [00:06:33] So do you want to tell them a little bit about what we're talking about? Or do you want me to do that?  [00:06:38] Jason: I'll go ahead. So we've seen a lot of problems with businesses growing. And so if you, have a BDM or if you are the BDM, you're the business owner, you're the one that closes deals and you are not adding at least a hundred orders a year, hopefully through organic methods instead of wasting a bunch of money on advertising to get cold crappy leads, we're going to give you the strategies, we're going to focus on some different growth engines talking about those. We're going to get into specific pipeline stages because what I often identify is that it's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline, or you're tolerating drop off at one of these stages. And not making progress and so we're going to help you identify where the leaks are if you've started building some of these growth engines, you may have started doing things like trying to do realtor referrals and it's not working very well. [00:07:39] You're not getting easily 10 doors a month from that. You might maybe you've heard of our neighbor strategy and you're not getting referrals from that. Maybe you've heard of some other of our strategies, it's not working. And if you haven't heard of these, then you might want to show up, but we're going to talk about the different stages. [00:07:55] We're going to talk about what maybe is affecting things at different stages. This will be very tailored to those that are in attendance. We want to help you move your business forward significantly. And sometimes there's very simple tweaks that could be done at each of these stages that opens the floodgates. [00:08:10] So you have a lot more flow through the pipeline, which means more deals and more money.  [00:08:15] Sarah: Yeah. So back up because you skipped to topic number two, which is cool. We can do two and then one and then three and then four, but that's fine.  [00:08:21] Jason: They're not numbered.  [00:08:22] Sarah: They're not, but they are in order on the document. [00:08:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:08:25] Sarah: Yeah. [00:08:25] Jason: So Sarah's an operator and everything has to be done a certain way. There is a right way for operators.  [00:08:32] Sarah: There's a right way to do literally every task on the planet.  [00:08:34] Jason: I'm talking to the business owners and they care most about what is interesting or different, but...  [00:08:42] Sarah: yes, and I understand, but your pipeline will literally never ever work if you don't even have one. [00:08:50] Jason: That's true.  [00:08:51] Sarah: Or you don't know the stages of a pipeline because a lot of times, and I bet this happens to you too, but it happens to me when I ask people, okay, "what does your sales process look like?" [00:09:00] " Oh, I talked to somebody." "Okay, great. And then what?" "Oh, and then I send them some information." "Great. And then what?" [00:09:05] Jason: "I wait." [00:09:06] Sarah: "Oh, then I wait." "Oh, okay. Like, do you call them again or do you check in or do you like set up another call?"  [00:09:13] Jason: "Or I follow up in a way that I look needy and creepy?"  [00:09:16] Sarah: Sometimes the answer is yes. And then sometimes the answer is no, but even if they do follow up or have another call or check in again, somehow, then my next question again is "okay, and then what?" And then they go, "oh, and then I just wait." So essentially what happens is you have no pipeline. Okay. And you don't know that you don't have a pipeline, but you don't have a pipeline. [00:09:35] And that means if you're not working the pipeline and you don't know the different stages of a pipeline, we're just guessing, and we're just hoping. We're going, "I don't know. I keep talking to all these people, but nothing seems to be closing. And I don't understand why," because you don't have pipeline stages. [00:09:49] Jason: Okay.  [00:09:49] Sarah: So you got to need a pipeline.  [00:09:51] Jason: So we'll teach you how to build out the pipeline. We'll talk about the different stages that need to exist. And then it'll be a lot more clear and we'll talk with you about how to build that out in your CRM of choice. So you'll understand the principles. [00:10:04] You can go apply this to whatever CRM you use, whether it's DoorGrow CRM or lead simple or whatever else is out there. Okay, I'll go to number three now that we're back in order. Okay. All right. Number three, [00:10:19] Uncovering your client's pain points. So superficially people think they know the pain of their target audience. So they want their property manager. They don't want to have to deal with managing the rental property. That is not the real pain that gets you to close deals that you have to go a lot deeper than that. [00:10:36] And so we're going to talk about how to disarm people, how to not come across as super salesy, how to create authentic communication and an authentic relationship where they believe that you can help them and how to get them to open up about what the real pain is, the real stress of the real emotion that might be motivating them to have a conversation with you. [00:11:00] And one of the biggest problems we see in sales is that a lot of people don't take time to identify what the real pain is. The pain often has not really anything to do with the rental property. It's something going on in their personal life. And so you need to figure out how to connect to that. [00:11:16] And for some that's like, "Whoa," that's like, "I don't know how to do that. That'd be weird or awkward," but you need to get to the real pain and related that you need to get to the real pleasure, like what they really want. Nobody really wants property management, right? Just like if you're booking a trip to Hawaii. [00:11:34] Property management is the flight to Hawaii. It's not the paradise. It's not the outcome that they're hoping for. It is property management. So we want to sell the trip. We want to sell Hawaii, not the flight there, right? Which is property management. So we'll talk about also getting towards the, not just the pain, but the pleasure. [00:11:54] Those are the 2 ingredients you really need to know and uncover in order to close the deal. And so if you're not closing deals, it's probably because somebody else is better at that than you. You're one of your competitors, or they're just going to go with the cheapest company because you haven't really created a connection. [00:12:11] And so they think you're a commodity. You do everything everyone else does. And so that we'll get into that. All right. So good?  [00:12:18] Sarah: That was good.  [00:12:19] Jason: Number four, reviewing and improving your call scripts to book more appointments and close more deals. So we want to like, take a look at what are you saying? And you may think, "I don't have scripts. [00:12:30] I'm just awesome. I just wing it every time." I guarantee 90 percent of the time, you're saying similar things, dealing with objections in similar ways. And so you have a script. It just probably isn't a very clearly defined one, which means it's probably not a very good one because you haven't taken an objective look at it to optimize or improve it. [00:12:50] And so we're going to take a look at some scripts that are effective and figure out ways to improve your scripts. And sometimes it's not even about what you're saying. It's about how you say it. And so we're going to focus on some of the magic that comes with how you communicate with people. I've got clients that are not salespeople, like no real training in sales, terrible at sales. And they're crushing it because they know how to be authentic. They are communicating in a way that's disarming and they're just being helpful. And so we're going to talk about some of that stuff. How to close more deals. Some of you that are so good at sales, you're super salesy, you like cut your teeth as a baby in real estate and like you're a shark, like we're going to help you figure out how to undo a lot of that mess so that you can create more trust and sales and deals happen at the speed of trust. [00:13:44] And so we're going to help you close more business, which will make things a lot better. Okay.  [00:13:50] Sarah: That's what we've got. All right. That's our agenda. And if this sounds interesting to you, now, our hope is that once you come to this event, you'll obviously get a lot out of it and learn a lot about sales that we just typically can't cover on a one hour call. [00:14:07] It's just, it's too much. I can talk about 1 of those things for more than an hour. Right? Once you come to this event, you'll learn a lot and you'll be able to immediately implement these things so that very quickly, you will start seeing some changes and some positive results and momentum.  [00:14:24] Jason: So why do this in person? [00:14:26] So let me talk about that. One of the things we've noticed in DoorGrow's, I'm starting to call it the real bubble. And so there's this mentality, I think, unconsciously in our brain. So when we're doing stuff on zoom calls and zoom meetings, which we do a lot of cool stuff that way DoorGrow, but we've noticed that when we get people in person for the first time they meet Sarah and I and realize we're real human beings. [00:14:48] We're not just something on video and that we're real and they can like hug us. And like we touch right? Like then something shifts in their brain that everything else they're saying is real. When they start to meet clients that they've seen on some of the Zoom calls, sharing their wins and talking about crushing it and adding doors. [00:15:07] They're like, "Oh, these are real people." And then the brain shifts and they start to connect that, "Hey, if they're real, and this is real and they're getting real results and they're like me, I'm a human, like I can do this too." And all of this stuff is actually true, impossible. And so we've noticed a shift in clients once they come to DoorGrow live, which is coming up in May, or they come to one of our in person events. [00:15:32] And so we want to do this in person because there's something magical about in person that content and information is absorbed. A lot more easily. There's also that sort of kinesthetic aspect that we're there physically but the learning is a bit more experiential. We'll be able to maybe even role play, go over some scripts, talk, like, say things. [00:15:52] It's just a bit more real than just seeing something on video or watching a video replay or something like that. And so come pierce the real veil with DoorGrow and realize the real magic that exists.  [00:16:03] Sarah: All right. Yes. And at this point you guys might be wondering all right, so this sounds pretty good. [00:16:09] I think I might be interested. What do I do? Contact me. Don't contact anybody else on the team. They're not even going to know what you're talking about. Just contact me so you can get in touch with me. It's Sarah S-A-R-A-H. If you go to our website and you end up talking with somebody else on the team, they will point you in my direction and you can get registered that way. [00:16:29] Now, tickets for this will be 1k per person. You can have as many people on your team attend as you would like. So if you have 3 BDMs and you want to send all 3. If there's just one or two, maybe that you want to send or you want to come check it out yourself, go ahead. But you'll need to let me know now spots are going to be limited. I don't even have 20 spots. I actually need to go back and confirm how many I have left because I know we had some people interested. But the price for this will be 1k per person. And I know that the price will not stay. At that rate. [00:17:03] So we're launching it and we're doing something special with the price. So for now, take us our one case. So get in while the cost is low.  [00:17:12] Jason: There you go. All right. You will easily offset the cost of doing this. For most of you, that's like getting one more deal, right? So lifetime value for most of your clients, probably a lot higher, like maybe 10 times. [00:17:27] Maybe 20 times higher if you can keep them a while, right? So this is a no brainer. This is very easy and we can get your BDM adding a lot more doors. So just like some client results, we've got clients that are easily some BDM are adding 200- 300 doors a year organically without paying for any SEO or pay per click or content marketing or social media marketing or pay per lead services like APM and they're able to grow and scale their business quickly through organic methods. [00:17:56] Sarah: And we have some clients that turn business away every single month because they just cannot.  [00:18:02] Jason: Get pickier and pickier.  [00:18:03] Sarah: Yeah, they're backlogged. And then they ask us on the calls what do I do? Like, "I don't want to say no, but then I can't take on this many." And we're like, "now you have a waiting list and you can take on X money per month." [00:18:14] And if they can't come on this month or they missed that deadline, then roll them over to the next month. If they qualify.  [00:18:20] Jason: Okay. All right. So that is BDM bootcamp. So check out BDM bootcamp, reach out to sarah@doorgrow.Com. Sarah with an H.  [00:18:28] Sarah: Yeah, if you spell my name wrong, I'm not talking to you cause I won't get it. [00:18:32] Jason: Okay. That's your punishment.  [00:18:34] Wow. Okay.  [00:18:35] Sarah: So don't forget my H because everyone does.  [00:18:38] Jason: Just email me. I'm nicer.  [00:18:40] Sarah: He never checks his email. Don't email him. That's true.  [00:18:42] Jason: My assistant does. Don't do it. All right.  [00:18:44] Sarah: You'll never hear back the black hole.  [00:18:46] Jason: No, my assistant's good. She'll take care of it. I just won't see it. [00:18:51] She'll tell me about it if it's important. All right. For those of you that are wanting to join a community, be part of something awesome, reach out to us. And so you can learn more about DoorGrow Mastermind. You get access to some of the coolest stuff and to be part of the coolest community of the most growth minded property management business owners in the industry. [00:19:11] And we can help you get your business to the next level. So whether it's scaling operations, whether it's figuring out how to grow, whether it's cleaning up the front end of your business, getting your website and your pricing, right, all this kind of stuff. So we can help you. All right. Check us out at doorgrow. com until next time to our mutual growth, everybody. Bye for now. [00:19:33] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:19:59] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

At this point in the year, it's still early enough to make some plans to level up your property management business. One of the best ways to learn new strategies is by masterminding with other professionals. In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about the importance of strategic time as a business owner as well as some upcoming events for property management entrepreneurs. You'll Learn [02:06] The concept of your default future [06:43] The four reasons for having a business [10:26] 2024 events for property managers [16:51] Why masterminding matters [19:44] The ultimate event for property management entrepreneurs Tweetables “If you're working with any business, they should be helping you change your future outcomes.” “Worse is still different, but not probably the change we were hoping for.” “I never want to be the smartest person in the room. If I am, that means I'm in the wrong room.” “They say you're the sum of the five people that you are around the most or something like that, but I think your business will be the sum of the five property managers are the most connected to.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: They say you're the sum of the five people that you are around the most or something like that, but I think your business will be the sum of the five property managers are the most connected to and to be connected in our mastermind to other mastermind members  [00:00:13] Welcome DoorGrowers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many real estate think you're crazy for doing it you think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. All right. [00:01:11] So before this show, we were talking about what we should be talking about in today's episode. So what are we going to talk about today?  [00:01:18] Sarah: We will talk about getting ready for your 2024 and prepping, getting your schedule ready for some events that we've got coming up. [00:01:27] Jason: Okay. It is January 26. January 2nd. Sorry. I don't know why I said that January 2nd. What's wrong with you? I don't know. I don't know. I think I saw the clock. All right, so it's January 2nd The new year has just started. This episode will probably come out on the main podcast a little bit later, but we wanted to kick things off for the new year. [00:01:49] Make sure that everybody gets in momentum. I think 2024 is going to be a wild year. Every election year is. It's going to be interesting. So let's talk about your property management business, how you can get more of what you want and grow. So let's talk about some of the stuff coming up. All right. Where should we start? [00:02:06] Sarah: Let's first start about talking about what did your 2023 look like? Was it what you wanted it to look like? Was it maybe a little different where there's some curve balls that came at you in the middle of the year and threw the whole plan that you had off balance and if so, what are you going to do differently in 2024? [00:02:26] So if you change nothing, if you do nothing different, your 2024 will look probably pretty similar to your 2023 if not worse because the market is totally different, at least part of 2023. The market was good. The real estate market was pretty decent. It's not so decent right now. It's a little bit cooler. [00:02:45] In fact, we're really close to it flipping over to a buyer's market.  [00:02:49] Jason: Okay. And for those of you listening, I think you'll really enjoy this concept. This is one of my favorite closes when it comes to converting people into clients or customers. And we call it the default future versus created future close. So it's important to take a look at your default future is. What you're going to get in the next year, and you can easily base it on what you did the last year and the year before that, and the year before that, you should have a pretty good idea of what your default future looks like. And if you're working with any business, they should be helping you change your future outcomes, right? They should be helping you improve your future. So for you selling to your clients, they should have a default future if they continue to DIY, do it themselves, manage their own property, work with the crappy property manager they've got now, whatever their current future is. [00:03:36] They should have a different created future if they're working with you and you need to help them see a different alternate future reality that includes you. So we run into people all the time that have had a very uncomfortable default future in property management. They have not grown for the last sometimes 10 years. [00:03:55] They've struggled. We have a client we just got on. He's been around 50 units for a decade. So that means it's a grind. That means there's a lot of churn, losing a lot of customers while you're adding customers and you're just not growing, right? Some of y'all are down in doors because I've heard the excuse of the pandemic or people, a bunch of my clients sold or whatever. [00:04:15] So a lot of you might be down in doors. And so your current future, default future looks even worse than last year or the year before, right? So we want to shift you towards a created future. Yeah, so how do we do that. Okay you do that with DoorGrow, right? So we are really good at helping create a different alternate reality for you a different future That includes us. [00:04:39] And because we've been able to coach and support so many, like hundreds of property management, business owners, we have tactics strategies that we've developed over time that we're always. Honing, improving, figuring out that have allowed us to increase our client's door count, make their operations smoother, improve their team, lower the entrepreneur's pressure and noise, decrease their stress, make the business more fun so they feel like they're more of a business owner. [00:05:07] And so these are the things that we do. At door girl. All right. And we've got a bunch of events that we do throughout the year that help to facilitate our vision in helping transform property management business owners and their businesses.  [00:05:20] Sarah: Now is a really good time to plan out "what do I want my year to look like this year? Do I want it to look like more of the same? Or do I want it to look different, but positively different" because it can still look different, just maybe worse. Worse is still different, but not probably the change we were hoping for. Yeah. So if you want your business and your life and your income and your team and your day to improve, then you may need to just be open to doing things a little bit differently than you have before. [00:05:52] And I think being that we're at the beginning of the year, this is a really good time to set some time aside for you. Set some time aside to make sure that you're prioritizing the things that you really want to get out of the business or out of your life. And how do we do that? There's a few events that we have coming up throughout the year. [00:06:12] You can find all of our events, all of the details on doorgrow.com/events. And that will show you our event calendar. What event, who it's for, what the cost is, where it's located, the dates, all of that kind of information is on there. And if you go all the way to the bottom, there's a quick little video I recorded with even more details. [00:06:34] So you can watch the whole thing. It's only a couple minutes long, or you can skip to the part that talks about the event you're interested in.  [00:06:41] Jason: Okay, cool. So for this new year, I would like to recap the four reasons, because I think. It's important to take a step back and assess your business through the lens of these four things. [00:06:55] We have a fifth reason, so maybe the five, but we want to take a look at your business through this lens and make sure you're actually headed in the right direction. Because it's very possible to be making more and more money in your business and become more and more miserable. And that's not the goal. [00:07:09] We didn't start businesses to become more miserable. We thought we started them to make more money, but what we really want is what more money can give us, right? We're hoping more money can give us more, number one, fulfillment. We get to spend more of our time doing the things we enjoy doing. More and more freedom. [00:07:24] We feel free. We don't feel trapped. We don't feel stuck. We don't feel like we're controlled. We don't feel like our business runs us. We don't feel like a slave or servant to our business. We feel free, right? Freedom. The third reason is Contribution. So if we have freedom and fulfillment, usually then we want to make a difference to others, right? [00:07:44] We want to benefit other people too. It's just innate I think in entrepreneurs, we want to change the world. We want to make it a better place. We want to improve things. We see problems and we're like, "I can make money solving that problem, right? That's contribution. That means making a difference to your family, to your team, to your clients, to everybody that you can have impact with and so contribution, I think, is one of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves. It feels really good to benefit others. And then the fourth reason is support. It's really difficult to have fulfillment, freedom, contribution if we don't have a team because then we end up doing and wearing all the hats that we don't want to wear and we should only be wearing the hats. Eventually, if we had the ultimate business, it gives us the ultimate level of fulfillment and freedom. Then we are only spending our time wearing the hats that we most enjoy wearing, which would mean we have a really good team that supports us and they enjoy wearing the hats that they're wearing and they take those off of our plates. [00:08:41] So we don't have to wear those hats. And so those are the four reasons. Now there is a fifth reason, and this is important to recognize. This is what your team members want more than the four reasons, typically. This is what your clients want often more than the four reasons... they want safety and certainty. [00:08:58] They want peace of mind. And so this is why a lot of people are willing to give up fulfillment, freedom, even contribution. They're willing to give those up and trade them in order to have safety and certainty. This is why they will go get a job. This is why they want to do what they're told to by maybe the media at times, right? [00:09:17] They want to be safe and entrepreneurs were a little bit, we're wired a little bit differently. We care more about having our freedom than safety and certainty, but we also want that too. And so having our business built out in a way that gives us all five of those things gives us the ultimate business and it allows us then to make a real impact and to have a really good team and to have less stress. [00:09:39] And so this is our primary goal with DoorGrow is to move you towards that. So take inventory. How do you feel you rate on each of these five areas right now? Do you feel you have safety and certainty? Do you feel like you have support and a really great team? You really feel supported in your business? [00:09:54] Do you feel like you've got freedom and fulfillment? You get to do the things that you really want to do. You're really enjoying your day today. You feel like you're making a difference out there and contributing in the best way. If you don't have those things, even though you have a bunch of money coming in or a lot of doors, you built the wrong business. [00:10:11] And it doesn't mean you need to change businesses or industries. It just means you need to change what your role is in that business. So 2024, let's move you towards more towards the four reasons. All right. So should we talk about some of the events we have coming up? Yeah, let's do it.  [00:10:26] Sarah: Let's talk about the events scheduled for 2024. [00:10:29] By the time this airs, it'll still be early in the year. So you should be able to mark your calendars for the things that sound interesting to you and make sure that you prioritize your business so that you are set up for success so that you are able to grow so that you are able to get more of the day to day stuff that you just don't enjoy the stuff that bogs you down off of your plate because this is not the life that you need to live, but it's really common for property managers, so make sure that you prioritize this stuff. [00:10:59] So let's talk about some of the events that we've got coming up this year. What's first? Okay. The first thing we have, this is for our clients only. It's in January this month now. And that is open to all of our current mastermind clients. We're going to San Diego, California. So these type of events if you join the DoorGrow Mastermind, you'll have access to them. [00:11:20] So what our tribe events are. They're usually smaller events. They're not huge with, like 100 people or more. They're smaller, more intimate events. So if you're a little bit more on the introverted side, then this event might be really good for you because you get to create close connections with people. [00:11:39] So Jason and I attend these events as well as some of our clients. So you'll get to network and spend some time with other property management business owners. And what we'll be doing, this event, we do a little bit of business and a little bit of fun. So we have some activities planned out there for the day and either before lunch or at lunch or probably both because that's what happened last time is we're going to be, talking shop, talking business, what's working, what's not working, what's your plan? [00:12:07] What are you working on? How can we help support you in that? So that's our first one.  [00:12:11] Jason: Okay, cool. Now we have some other things happening in January. [00:12:13] I'll just throw out there. If you're hearing this later and you miss this stuff, we might have recordings that you might be able to get access to if it's one of our public things. But make sure that you stay connected to us, follow us and are connected to us on social media or you're inside our Facebook group at doorgrowclub. com where we broadcast this and stream it live so that you don't miss out each week. January 11th in a week, we are going to do with our clients a jumpstart 2024 call on zoom where you can 10x your year. And we're going to talk about 10xing your growth in your property management business. [00:12:47] What's next? [00:12:48] Sarah: Okay. So the next event that's coming up will be open to everyone So if you're currently in our mastermind or not yet in our mastermind, or you were formerly in the mastermind, this will be open to everyone. We have our boardroom event that's coming up March 13th and 14th. It will be in Round Rock, Texas, which is just north of Austin. [00:13:10] And that event, we actually launched a lot of these events for the first time last year in 2023. We've had some success with them. Clients really enjoy these style of events, so we carried them on into this year. So the boardroom event, it is a smaller event. We will probably limit it to about six clients, like six businesses total. [00:13:35] For that reason, because we really want to be able to go deep. If the event gets too big, then we have to stay granular and more topical and this event, we call it boardroom because we sit on each other's boards, it's a two day event. And what we'll do is we'll really get in and we'll like tinker with your business and see, where are you spending your time? [00:13:55] What does your team look like, what does your profit margin look like? What does your revenue look like? Where are you struggling? Where are you succeeding? So we really get in and we go deep with clients on the smaller style events. So spots will be limited. If you're interested in attending any of our events or getting more information, just go to doorgrow.com/events. [00:14:15] All of the information is there.  [00:14:17] Jason: Yeah. The last boardroom room event that we did was pretty awesome. So everybody walked away with a really solid set of clarity and to do items to take their business to the next level. And what was interesting is, a lot of them were really stuck and couldn't see where they needed to go next. [00:14:34] And so this allows us the opportunity to really go deep with the business owners. And so they get a lot of value from this.  [00:14:40] Sarah: So that one is coming up March 13th and 14th. It will be in round rock, which is like North Austin here in Texas. That one is very focused on business. So we do break for lunch. [00:14:52] We do go for dinner. But it's boardroom style events. So we're in session almost all day. It goes from about nine to five  [00:14:59] Jason: is serious stuff. All right  [00:15:01] Sarah: Yes, cool. All right, then this one personally is my favorite is our premium mastermind events we also launched that last year for the first time and This one for me, it's just so fun because it mixes the two things that I love, which is business and travel. [00:15:16] I'm like all about both of these things. So if you're looking for an event that allows you to travel, do something fun, explore the area and really dive into your business in that same depth that we offer in the boardroom, then this event will be for you. So this we do reserve for our current and former mastermind clients only. [00:15:38] It's not open to everyone. But what we do is we get a luxury Airbnb or rental of some sort and we will rotate where they're held. This one that's coming up, it's April 9th and 10th. It will be in Bentonville, Arkansas. Very random spot, but the home is beautiful and it's huge. So we'll do some fun stuff in the area. [00:16:01] What we do, it's about a day and a half event. So we come in, we'll do a mastermind during the day, and then at night we spend some time just, hanging out at the property and getting to know each other and really connecting. It was really interesting because we did this last year in April, and then in May, we had our DoorGrowLive and the clients that attended our premium mastermind, oddly enough, they all also attended our DoorGrowLive, they were like their own little group of people because you just know each other so well, like you've spent time with each other. You really get to know each other's businesses and like business model and what are they doing and what are they all about? [00:16:39] So it was like so worth it for me. And it was amazing to see that at our DoorGrowLive. So if you are a current or former mastermind client, then. This might be a really great event for you.  [00:16:51] Jason: Yeah. These are super fun. It's more of a more personal, more of an intimate setting. [00:16:56] We're hanging out together in the same house. And so the conversations are just, they're just really great. And this allows you to create some relationships and friendships. They say you're the sum of the five people that you are around the most or something like that, but I think your business will be the sum of the five property managers are the most connected to and to be connected in our mastermind to other mastermind members and our mastermind members are different. They're just different than the typical NARPM crowd or the typical crowd of people that are involved in property management. They like love what they get to do and they've shifted more towards the four reasons. They have a much healthier mindset because we've installed a lot of mindset things. This is why we want to bring mastermind clients to these, they're just a different crowd and being able to hang out with other people that are playing a similar game that have a similar mindset is just like next level. [00:17:45] And so the relationships that are created, I think will last a lifetime, which is really awesome.  [00:17:50] Sarah: And I think that's a really good point is there's a lot to be said about who's in your circle and, who you're spending time with. So if your circle is doing things that are either similar or if they're even a step ahead of you, that's fantastic. [00:18:06] You're in the right circle. So I never want to be the smartest person in the room. If I am that means I'm in the wrong room.  [00:18:12] Jason: I like being the smartest person in the room sometimes, but not all the time  [00:18:15] Sarah: No, it's like when we run the events, yeah. I'm talking about when we attend.  [00:18:19] Jason: Yeah, we invest a lot. [00:18:20] We invest a lot And we're a part of groups and have mentors that are like beyond where we're at here at DoorGrow. And being able to create that for clients and facilitate that, is really awesome. We love being able to experience that as well. So great leaders, I think are also great followers. [00:18:36] And I think that's why we're able to deliver so much to our clients is because we go join programs and events and do things like this, where we're the student, where we're learning, where we're connecting with people, where we're masterminding, we want to bring the same value to those that we serve. [00:18:49] So we've gotten really great benefits. We've done some really cool trips, different places, hang out with other entrepreneurs, and we always get a lot out of it. Even when I don't think I'm going to, I'm like "it might be fun." But then it like, sometimes it's changed my life. It's been really impactful. [00:19:04] All right.  [00:19:05] Sarah: Next, we've got our DoorGrow Live. Okay. And as an added kicker this year, if you are a current mastermind client in our super system tier you get your own special event. Yay, so we're tacking it on right before DoorGrowLive, that way it's not additional travel, it's not really like hard to do, it's just gonna mash in with DoorGrowLive, so it will be the day before DoorGrowLive, which is, I believe it's a Thursday, it's May 16th, this is for our current SuperSystem clients only, we will be diving into all things SuperSystem, all things operations at this event. [00:19:41] Jason: Okay. So now DoorGrowLive. The DoorGrowLive is our ultimate event. This is where we get everybody to go, clients, non clients. It's our biggest event of the year. This is fun, interesting. We've got speakers, there's lots of interaction. We've got a lot of fun stuff going on. So this is going to be at the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock, Texas, which is the North Austin area. And it's a super cool resort has a huge indoor water park. It has a bunch of restaurants.  [00:20:11] Sarah: It is Friday and Saturday. It's May 17th and 18th. This is open to everyone. So whether you are a current, former, it doesn't matter. You are never in our mastermind, never a client at all. [00:20:21] Does not matter. It's open to everyone. This is our big event of the year. So we bring in a bunch of different property managers. We bring in some vendors, we bring in some speakers, like it's a two day event. And we're holding it in again, North Austin. So Round Rock, Texas. And the resort is really, it's really great. [00:20:43] It's very nice. The rooms are nice. They have plenty of restaurants to choose from. We did our DoorGrowLive last year there, and we liked it so much. We decided to go back.  [00:20:54] Jason: Yeah. Some venues treat you really well and some treat you really not well. And this one was really good. We really liked it. [00:21:00] Yeah, so make sure you get tickets to DoorGrow live. If you're wanting to just initially put your foot in the toe in the water to see what is it like around the DoorGrow culture? What is it like around DoorGrowers? What is it like around people that are involved in their ecosystem? This would be a great way to decide whether or not you should be spending a whole bunch of money with DoorGrow, right? [00:21:22] Is come hang out at DoorGrow live and see the magic that's going on and learn about the DoorGrow code, learn about people that are scaling up, talk to people that have their different lanyard colors with their different belt levels. Like we've got a whole program of ascension and, just like in martial arts, and so come check it out. [00:21:40] It really is a different thing. This is not your usual conference. Let's say it like that. This is like the ultimate conference We've decided like we want to make these the best that we can make them. So sometimes NARPM events are okay and sometimes NARPM events... maybe they're not. Some of them though, we like we've even had clients say well on some of them our event and NARPM event were right at the same time and they said "there's no way I would skip DoorGrowLive to go to a NARPM But what we've done is we've done everything that we could to make these conferences, the best conferences ever for property managers. [00:22:16] Sarah: There's a lot that goes into it like every little detail that we put into it, we really try to make sure that this is so beneficial and it's the big event of the year. It's open to everyone. So if you're thinking, "Hey I don't know what event I should go to," this would be a really good one to go to because it's so big and there's just so much that goes into it. [00:22:36] You'll get a lot out of it and it's not the boring conference that you're going to go and sit and fall asleep. And go, "Oh God, is it lunch yet. Can I go home now?" It's not like that at all. It's very exciting. There's a lot going on and we always provide really good opportunities to meet and talk with other people too. [00:22:55] So it's not just like you're in session all day long. There's a lot of opportunities to network with other property management business owners.  [00:23:02] Jason: Yeah we actively try to facilitate that because we know that that's one of the biggest benefits we've gotten from going to events. It's just the connections that we actively facilitate that. [00:23:11] I think what makes, the DoorGrowLive events stand out is that it's a bit more holistic. We're not just focused only on property management. We're focused on improving you and your life and focusing on entrepreneurship, focusing on taking things to the next level. So people get a lot out of it and it really can be life changing instead of just business changing.  [00:23:30] Sarah: So that's our big one. Now, if you like vacation style events, this one is a newer one. So we're testing this out this year. This is going to be our first one ever it's DoorGrow retreat. Yeah, so this will mix a little bit of business and lots of vacation style. [00:23:47] So this is open to your family to your kids to your spouse, whomever wants to join you and let it be like a business trip on a tax write off for sure So we will still do some business stuff and it's vacation style event, and that is going to be July 17th through 21st. And it will be in Punta de Mita in Mexico. [00:24:10] Yay. Super excited. So you will need a passport.  [00:24:12] Jason: Get those passports ready. Get them now. We're going to mexico. So yeah, and this is gonna be a nice resort.  [00:24:19] Sarah: Oh, it's yeah, it's very nice.  [00:24:21] Jason: We go to nice places. All right. Yeah. Cool. A little picky. All right. All right.  [00:24:25] Sarah: Then, second half of the year, we just mirror what we do the first half of the year. So for a lot of things, not for everything, but for a lot of them, we like to have a spring session and a fall session. [00:24:35] So our tribe meetup, we do two per year, one in January and then one in September. And again, this is for our current mastermind clients only. It will be September 11th will be our next in person tribe meetup location to be announced. Why? Because if you're a mastermind member, you guys get to submit your ideas and vote on it. [00:24:52] Then we have another premium mastermind event. So again, spring session, fall session, our fall session will be October 22nd and 23rd. This is open for our current and former mastermind clients. Only this one will be in Water Sound, Florida. We've got a really nice place there lined up. And then boardroom. So again, spring session, fall session. Our fall session will be November 20th and 21st, and we'll hold that here in round rock, Texas. Those are our events that we've got coming up. I'm super excited for all of them.  [00:25:21] Jason: Yeah. I don't know that we've ever talked about all the different events and there's a lot of virtual events and online things we do for our mastermind members as well, besides all of this. [00:25:29] And we've never really talked about this. I don't think as much on the podcast. So I'm sure there's people listening. They're like, "Oh, I didn't realize DoorGrow did all this stuff or had all this stuff going on." We've got a lot going on. Yeah. In fact, one of the consistent pieces of feedback we get from Mastermind members is, "wow, there's a lot." [00:25:44] There is a lot. It can be a little overwhelming in the beginning. So we really hold people's hand to make sure they can navigate everything in DoorGrow Academy, all of our events, all the online classes, everything that we've got going on to make sure that it is geared towards what they need most and they don't get distracted by all the shiny objects everywhere. [00:26:02] So it's important. But if you're interested in any of this. You're interested in coming and jumping into the DoorGrow ecosystem. We have plenty of free trainings we would love to throw at you based on what your current challenges are, so you can get an idea of how we can support you, how we can help you. We've got a lot of case studies and testimonials. [00:26:18] I think over a hundred now on our playlist on YouTube of our case studies you can check out. See if you can trust these DoorGrow people. And once you're beyond the paywall and you're in with our clients, you'll get it. It's pretty awesome. But between now and then, feel free to join our Facebook group, which I mentioned earlier, go to DoorGrowClub.com and you get access to our podcast live. You get access to our masterclasses that we promote. That are free, you get access to a lot of really cool stuff and we've got a bunch of stuff, cool stuff in the file section there as well. It's available.  [00:26:51] It's a great online community. And if you join it and you have to put in your email address, answer the questions and if we give you access, it's for property management business owners. We reject 70 percent of applicants. So it's a little bit exclusive, which makes it really cool. But if we give you access, you'll also get five emails that are sent to you. Like a fee Bible we're gonna send you gifts, we're gonna send you some free stuff.  [00:27:15] I think we've covered all the events. Sarah's always coming up with more ideas, so there might be more stuff that we're going to be doing. [00:27:21] But yes, this is a pretty good overview.  [00:27:22] Sarah: If you can give me the opportunity to travel, I'm probably going to take it.  [00:27:25] Jason: She'll add it to the program for sure. All right. All right. So we appreciate everybody hanging out with us. We hope that this has opened your eyes a little bit to some of the cool stuff that's going on in DoorGrow, inspiring you to get plugged into our ecosystem. [00:27:37] And we are all about helping property management business owners take their business to the next level and grow. And until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:27:46] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:28:12] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Tax season is upon us. Every property management business owner knows the struggle of trying to navigate IRS regulations each year and find the best outcome. In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with Mo Hussein with Balanced Asset Solutions. You'll Learn [02:05] Talking tax code and regulations [10:02] Why you need an accounting tool/software [18:38] Reducing your tax liability [23:21] Writing off education costs [26:24] A few more tips for the road Tweetables “The experts are worth a lot more to me than software.” “You're going to pay for everything in business, whether it's going to be in time or in cash.” “If a handyman shows up with only a multi tool instead of a toolbox to do a job, the property manager is probably not going to call that guy back.” “There's certainly a wrong way to do taxes, but there isn't a right way or one way to submit your taxes.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Mo: I think what's most important is having a single source of accounting truth I think that's probably what one of the biggest things that a lot of businesses struggle with, especially when it comes to tax season.  [00:00:10] Jason: Welcome doorGrowers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others impact lives, and you are interested in growing a business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners, and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts property management, growth experts, Jason Hall and Sarah Hall, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:08] And today we have Mo Hussain back on the show. What's up Mo? [00:01:12] Mo: Hey, doing well. Pleasure to be here.  [00:01:15] Jason: So we're going to be chatting a bit about tax strategies today. Yes. All right, cool. So let's dig into this. This is something that is near and dear to Sarah's heart, which is super weird.  [00:01:25] Sarah: I hate paying taxes. Fun fact, I don't want to give more of my money away if I don't have to. [00:01:31] Jason: I know if I see something on Instagram about a tax strategy, I should just send it to her and she'll find it interesting. Like she just gets into this stuff. So Mo, what do you got for us today?  [00:01:42] Mo: Yeah. Sarah, you are definitely probably the first person I've come across that has actually made a comment that you actually love going through this entire process. [00:01:50] Taxes is one of those things that, there's a saying, there's two things guaranteed in life, death and taxes.  [00:01:55] Jason: And I'm trying to avoid both. So how do we avoid some of the tax?  [00:01:59] Mo: I don't know if we can help with the death part. Maybe over time.  [00:02:01] Jason: We'll probably all be somewhat avoid some of the death maybe. [00:02:05] Mo: Unfortunately, the tax code is very thick. It's honestly created an entire industry of professionals like myself and other CPA firms that are specifically just dedicated to decoding it and maximizing savings with our clients and with taxpayers in general, there's, there's a litany of information that's on the IRS website. [00:02:22] It's very difficult to parse through and and there's also consistent changes that are happening each year. I think probably the biggest changes that are happening this year that a lot of property managers are being impacted by is the new 1099 filings and the IRS portal. Prior to 2023, you'd be able to file your 1099s via paper as of 2023 now, for any filers that are filing more than 10 returns, those have to be filed electronically on the IRS has created the iris. The IRS has created this new portal called the IRIS and allows for you to be able to submit your 1099s electronically. And there's some changes that have happened between the fire system that a lot of folks were using before and the new IRIS system, of course, making things more and more, more, more complex as usual. [00:03:07] Jason: Got it. Why would they make anything easy? Yeah, it's definitely not the goal to be audited next year. Now, it seems when it comes to tax strategies, you've got every everything ranging from across the spectrum from risky, maybe not even actually viable strategies all the way to really safe and conservative. [00:03:31] And some will save you a lot more on taxes on the risky side, going towards more conservative. How do you balance this?  [00:03:39] Mo: Good question. Medium. Good question. The interesting thing is although our CPA firm will file taxes on behalf of our clients. And there'll be another CPA firm maybe the client was working with before that filed taxes the year before. And maybe even though the deductions or maybe other things haven't changed significantly the return and the actual filing and the composition of it is different. And but it doesn't necessarily mean 1 way to do it is wrong than another way. There's a lot of different strategies, especially when it comes to things like depreciating assets and taking advantage, for example, of a bonus depreciation. [00:04:12] And just give you some context, bonus depreciation was a tax incentive that was enacted by Congress and in 2002 and it basically allows for accelerated business tax deduction on a large asset over an accelerated period of time versus over the duration or the lifetime of the actual asset. [00:04:30] Real estate is a great example of that. In 2023, you have bonus depreciation of up to 80 percent that can be taken advantage of, and then it drops to 60 percent in 2024, 40.25%, 26%, and 0% thereafter. However, a lot of these deductions, you may not want to take advantage of depending on where your revenues are at, so you can actually minimize your tax liability. [00:04:53] And so there's a lot of strategy around in different ways that a tax account or CPA will file your tax. And so that's where we see the variation what you mentioned about risky. There's certainly a wrong way to do taxes, but there isn't a right way or 1 way to submit your taxes. [00:05:09] And that's why you see a lot of different tax accounts and CPAs have different ways and strategies of submitting their clients' taxes.  [00:05:15] Jason: Okay. All right. What are some things that property managers should be paying attention to this time of year here at year end? Yeah. Max this out. [00:05:24] Mo: Yeah. All right. One thing that we always urge our clients is the tax season shouldn't be an annual kind of activity or flurry at the end of the year, but a lot of folks wind up doing is nobody really thinks about taxes until after the new year and it's February and you're looking at March and April when the tax deadline is due for both your business and your personal taxes. [00:05:44] And honestly, that isn't the best time that you should be thinking about it. You should be thinking about it throughout the duration of the year. You should have some accounting system that's keeping track of all your expenses with the path act that got enacted in 2015, real estate agents and brokers have some additional relief when it comes to business related purchases that got that made changes to the IRS section I believe 179 deduction. And for example. In the tax year 2023, you can expense or write off up to $28,900 of the price of a new car for the tax year in which you bought it another certain limits of the type of vehicle that qualifies for this tax break. However, these limits are part of allowable deductions. [00:06:21] And if you're thinking about your taxes throughout the year, certain decisions that you'll make about acquisitions or things that you may be purchasing for the business may make a material impact at the end of the year on kind of your tax implications. And it's important to keep a log of all your receipts, expenses and everything throughout the year. [00:06:37] A lot of times when clients wait until February to start putting together all the prep work and the receipts and everything for their expenses, a lot of times you'll miss things and we always suggest you should take your time and file an accurate return. Versus just trying to be beat the deadline and not get hit with a potential fine you have in April when the taxes are due, but you can always file for an extension. And if there is a tax liability that's assessed, there will be interest that will be accrued during that period of time. But again, it's better to be accurate and maximize your deductions versus being in a hurry. [00:07:08] Sarah: Got it. Are there any deductions or obvious tech strategies that you would recommend for property managers or real estate agents in general?  [00:07:18] Mo: Yeah great question. Some of the most common types of deductions for agents and brokers and property managers are marketing expenses, such as sales, open house signs, flyers, web development, business cards, mailers. [00:07:31] If you're leveraging a service, like DoorGrow, just consider real estate coaching and training. Those are considered education cost. Licensing and renewal fees. Things like association dues for MLSes, brokerage desk fees, any type of transportation kind of expenses, whether it be automobile maintenance or repairs, gas, mileage, travel, home office expenses, and even gifts, although there is a limit on gifts of a 25 dollar deduction for per client per year, and so there's a lot of different things that you can deduct. And a lot of times what happens is, you may be a broker or a property manager that's going to show a property and you need to go buy some flyers or handful flyers or something like there's some type of piece of marketing collateral. [00:08:13] And so you may go to FedEx and just use your credit card. And although at the time, it's registering in your head, that may be something that you forget to enter into the accounting system later. And so you're not leveraging that and as an actual viable business deduction. [00:08:26] And so this is why it's important that you're logging kind of your accounting activity and have a easy system to use something to use that's on the go as well. So you can easily kind of catalog and log these expenses. All these minor costs add up over time. And, you need to make accounts so you can maximize your deductions here. [00:08:43] Okay.  [00:08:43] Jason: What do you think is the easiest system to use?  [00:08:46] Mo: To stay away from words of easiest system or things like that, because it's very subjective, right? It's, we're all creatures of kind of habit. And some folks are tethered to their phones and are okay with using a litany of different applications. [00:08:57] A lot of our clients will use kind of QuickBooks for their management system, and for their to manage the kind of their corporate books, there is a mobile app can easily log things as you're going. You can connect that directly to your bank account and your credit card. And so as transactions occur, you can make sure that those are logged correctly. [00:09:13] I would say that, having a system that has an integration to whatever banking and credit cards that you're using and reconciling that account on a monthly basis to ensure that you're logging all the transaction. And then also keep in mind in scenarios where you're paying out of pocket for something or loaning something to the business, even though you may be the sole owner and want to take advantage of those. [00:09:33] There's a lot of different pieces of software that are out there that can help with that. We usually suggest for clients is, if you're already using some type of a property management and accounting system to manage your business, let's say Appfolio, there is a way to also manage your corporate books. [00:09:45] A lot of these property based accounting systems also have the ability to manage your corporate books. And it's not only specifically for real estate. They're an accounting system at the end of the day. And you can just create kind of things like a fictitious property labeled your corporate business and run all your financials and keep track of your finances that way. [00:10:02] Sarah: Now would be a really good time to send a reminder to property managers that your property management software is probably not the best software to do your internal accounting. So a lot of times clients are like, "Oh yeah, I have software for that. I use Rent Manager or Appfolio or Buildium. And that's fantastic to manage your client's accounts, but it's not the best system to like internally manage your accounting, it's not going to have the same functionality as something like QuickBooks would.  [00:10:36] Jason: But you're saying some that's what they do. [00:10:39] They use a lot. That's what they do.  [00:10:41] Mo: What I'm saying is that so these accounting systems. So the main difference. So if you think about something like a QuickBooks, it's a general accounting system. So it's meant for any business. The chart of accounts is very malleable, if you will, something like property based accounting system there is no such thing as like a business. There's a property, there's tenants, there's owners, there's vendors. Now, you can finagle or manipulate and come up with work around so that you can manage your books there. However, you'll have kind of an entire different chart of accounts for your corporate business, which would be different than, what shows up on the financial owners. [00:11:13] And so there's a trade off. You can use another system that's maybe tailored specifically to your business, like a QuickBooks and you have the flexibility of things like integrating credit cards and stuff, which is a nuance when you come to property based accounting systems. But then you have to manage 2 different platforms, or you can figure out some work arounds and try to manage and keep track of your financials in 1 of these property based accounting systems. [00:11:35] But then have to keep in mind about some of these work arounds, like reconciling, like a credit card, which isn't the same thing as reconciling like a bank account. But. So there are trade offs. But I think what's most important is, what we say having a single source of accounting truth I think that's probably what one of the biggest things that a lot of businesses struggle with, especially when it comes to tax season. Is that. " Oh, I have a bunch of receipts and stuff that are in my inbox. I have some screenshots on my iPhone. I have, this random Google Drive folder with other information. I need to call Sally, who's my, maintenance supervisor or whatever about some other transactions and stuff," and there isn't a single place of accounting truth. And having that will definitely save a lot of time, especially when it comes to prep.  [00:12:15] Jason: I would think that grown up property managers are probably at least using something like QuickBooks because at some point they really should be on the NARPM standard accounting, standard of accounting chart of accounts. There's just some advantages. [00:12:29] Especially if they're wanting to exit that business someday, having clean books that are not commingled with your client's stuff inside Appfolio, for example, would make your business a lot more appealing and you'd probably fetch a prettier penny.  [00:12:44] Sarah: And I think a lot of times people think, "Oh this is an accounting software because it does all of the accounting for my clients." [00:12:50] And there are differences for sure between how your PM software and how something like QuickBooks doesn't have to be QuickBooks, but we use QuickBooks. I like it and I can use it and I don't like technology. So something like QuickBooks functions, there are differences. And the other thing to keep in mind is if you have a team and your team has access to your property management software and you're putting all of your bookkeeping and accounting and financial data in there, your team has access to it and you may or may not want that. Some people might be very open and they have an open books policy and they don't care at all. [00:13:30] Some people, they hear that idea and they go, "there is no way I would do that." So if you're one of these people who's using your property management software as your own internal accounting system, you might want to think about doing that maybe a little differently.  [00:13:44] Jason: I think this is where there's a challenge in business and in this industry that a lot of business owners don't recognize the differentiator between all these systems that you need in order to run a business. [00:13:55] You definitely need something like Property Ware, Appfolio, Buildium and Rent Manager, Rent Vine, whatever as a back office. And as a billing system as the main system for getting paid basically, and then you need an accounting and financial system. And those are different, the accounting and financial system, you need a system for how to manage money, how to do finances. So for example, Profit First is a nice baby step for a lot of businesses that are just getting started and have Frankenstein accounting as Mike Michalowicz calls it, and then you need a sales CRM system, which is usually very different than the CRM, which they're calling their back office where it's focused on bringing clients into the business. They're like "I have a CRM. It's Appfolio." And it's not the same thing. And and then there's several other systems that you need in a business process system, planning systems, et cetera. [00:14:47] When people start to think that they have a one system, they're like "I've got Appfolio, so I've got every system I need." This is where they struggle then to be able to scale their business because they don't have the knowledge, the insights and the transparency that they would need in order to get to the next level. [00:15:03] And they don't have the right tool to do all these other jobs. It's not the Swiss army knife. And what's funny is I sometimes equate this to the little multi tool that a handyman might have on his belt. If a handyman shows up with only a multi tool instead of a toolbox to do a job, the property manager is probably not going to call that guy back. [00:15:23] "Oh yeah, I've got a hammer. It's right here." It's not the same. It's not the same. So same thing in business. You can't just run it off of one system. There's no magic one system. Everybody has to build a stack of tools. I'm sure in your business, you have a stack of tools that use as well. [00:15:37] You don't have just one system, right?  [00:15:39] Mo: That's right. It's all about using the best tool using the best tool to get the job done. That's an example that you mentioned about the handyman. At least when it comes to business, it's a huge cost when it comes with time and you're going to pay for everything in business, whether it's going to be in time or in cash. And where you take shortcuts on investing in certain systems, you're going to pay for it in the amount of additional time it's going to take for work arounds and manual things and processes, which is also brings up another point that we always stress to our clients is always consistently read like evaluating the business and your processes and the tooling that's being used so that you can constantly as we say, evolve forward. [00:16:15] Jason: Yeah, it's interesting. I had a mentor and he taught me this concept he called the five currencies. And basically there's five currencies you have to invest in life and in business. And it's time, energy, focus, cash, and effort. And what's funny is there's you get early on stage entrepreneurs that I think are trying to just avoid cash. [00:16:35] They're like, "I want to be cheap. I want to not spend money." And these are the ones that struggle to grow the most because they don't understand that their money is something that you can renew and earn. But time, as far as our life goes, is the scarcest resource. And what's really crazy to me is that our team members, we're buying their life. We're buying chunks of their time. They're trading time of their life for money. And they're trading probably the cheapest commodity for the best, or the trade and the best commodity for the easiest to get it seems like, but that's where they're at. And so as entrepreneurs, our goal is to move beyond just giving up our time and to get money. [00:17:16] And, we can invest more effort. We can invest more focus. We can limit the stuff we're focused on to grow faster, but in business, same thing with these tools, if we think we are saving money by only using one tool, we've got our crappy multi tool instead of building the ultimate stack, [00:17:36] then usually they just end up spending more on payroll. There's having to buy more time to do less stuff. And get less stuff done. So technology is a lot cheaper than people. That's I'm sure everyone listening realizes that, but.  [00:17:49] Mo: Yeah, there's a difference in business when you're looking at things from the lens of a perspective of an expense, versus looking at the total cost of ownership for a particular solution or process or something like that. [00:18:02] And and and in that regard, you can actually, assess the amount of time that's wasted and there's always going to be some opportunity cost. You are a business owner, nobody gets into real estate because they want to do accounting or because they want to work on taxes and whatnot. [00:18:16] And so there are professionals out there who's, sole service and focus and business models is focused on that. And and that's not something that's going to differentiate you from your competition. So those things that are not going to differentiate you, those are the things you should be outsourcing and the things that you should be seeking help to take off your plate. [00:18:31] So you can focus on the things that actually drive your business forward. And allow for you to be able to grow your portfolio.  [00:18:37] Sarah: Yeah, for sure. All right. Now I know this won't be the same for everyone because taxes is this crazy like mishmash of information and what works for you might not work for me and vice versa. Knowing that there's no one size fits all here. We're not shopping like off the rack. This is all tailored. What are some strategies that property managers should at least look into? Now, it might not make sense for everybody, but what are some things that they should at least look into and see "hey, does this make sense for me to implement this? I love learning right? So I love learning especially like how I can save money on taxes. So what are some ways that they can look into and see if it's right for them?  [00:19:18] Mo: Reducing their tax liability Yeah, no, great question. . Of the biggest nuances are just things in accounting is that, there's no such thing as being a creative accountant, right? There's always a right way to do things. [00:19:27] But there isn't just one right way to structure your business. And so one thing that we see a lot of clients struggle with is, they'll create a business initially, most folks don't start off in property management or they're either doing, they either own a brokerage firm or they're an agent and whatnot and they're doing actual real estate sales. [00:19:45] And then they'll try to, get into property management and maybe they have also they're doing in house maintenance and whatnot and maybe like a leasing only service and and maybe they also have assets on the side that they own themselves. And one common-  [00:19:56] Sarah: yeah. They're like, "I do all of these things." [00:19:59] Mo: I do all of these things, but they're doing it all under one entity. And so it's " hey, you should have a separate entity and LLC. There are liability reasons or mitigation for liability that you want to do this. And also, there are some potential tax benefits you can have an actual main corporation and you can have a sub entity or an LLC." That's your brokerage business. A separate LLC, that's the property management business. A separate LLC, that's the leasing only business. Separate LLC, that's the maintenance only business. And that, for example, that corporation can tax each of those sub LLCs, like a licensing cost, just to be able to actually use the name. [00:20:32] Of course, it may be the same ownership structure, but that's a potential way of of having a tax savings. A great example is you have the largest Companies like Apple and Nike and stuff like that, they have separate entities that are outside the US that tax licensing fees, just to use like the check mark with the entity that exists, that's actually transacting with the customers. [00:20:49] And then the other benefit of having all these entities that are separated out is that if you ever want to have a portion of the business that you wanna sell, you can demonstrate what the profitability, the profit and loss looks for that business. And you can have a separate valuation metric for that particular business and spin it off, especially if you have assets of your own, you want to have that in a separate entity, because you'll be able to take advantage of bonus depreciation. And that bonus depreciation essentially allows for you to be able to, take a rental property and take an immediate 1st year kind of deduction. If it's in 2023, you can start at 80 percent and whatever the bottom net losses on that particular asset, or that particular business that owns that asset that can now be offset the excess income. That's liable to taxes to offset against another entity. And so there's some strategies around that. There's also ways to be able to loan a particular asset or for example, if you have a car, you can rent it out to 1 of the entities, even though it may be the same individual that's using it. [00:21:49] There's a way to structure your taxes so that. Even if you own the property, you can technically lease it to 1 of the other entities and that can be a business expense and write off against another against 1 of your other entities. And so there's a lot of kind of small things like that that can make a material difference when collectively put together. But what it will ultimately we suggested something that we don't see too much. And usually we see a lot of clients struggling with is rather than having all your different enterprises and your sales activities, just revenue generating activities wrapped up into 1 entity to separate them out based on business lines. [00:22:22] And this also gives you as an owner perspective on what is working, what is not what needs help and attention and things that sort of be a little bit more prescriptive and data driven and how you make those decisions.  [00:22:32] Sarah: Like that. For sure. Yeah. And then it's. Different P and L's to see, "Hey, what part is actually profitable here and what part, if any, is taking a loss. Where does my attention actually need to be? Because what makes me the most money?" Instead of going "I think this looks pretty good."  [00:22:47] Jason: Things get mixed up. People make bad decisions. It's funny. Just for example, we'll get somebody that says, "oh yeah, I'm getting plenty of leads" and they're spending thousands of dollars on internet marketing. [00:22:57] And I'm like, cool. And they justify it. But I say, "where are you getting the leads from?" The majority were word of mouth. And so you're spending a bunch of money and I'm like, "cool, let's separate this out. What's your acquisition costs on ones you can attribute to the internet marketing stuff you're doing? [00:23:11] And sometimes they're like, "Oh yeah, it's 3- 400 a unit to like, to get on a client." And I'm like, that's ridiculous. And then they're like, "cool. I'll sign up for DoorGrow." I'm curious about the education costs and here at the end of the year, how do we help people justify signing up with DoorGrow leveraging education costs and getting that tax deduction? [00:23:33] Sarah: Such a good question because that's R and D! Research and development.  [00:23:36] Mo: Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. Real estate coaching training and education costs is considered an expense. It can be considered a deductible expense at the end of the day, especially a lot of the insight and kind of value that you guys add to the community is something that I think is priceless. [00:23:52] And if it's going to make a material impact to clients, bottom line, the thing is that none of us can be experts in everything. And so kinda the reality in business is you can learn in two ways. You can either learn from somebody else's mistakes or learnings, or you can learn the hard way yourself. [00:24:05] The latter is going to take more time, which you're not going to get back. And so the folks that are able to accelerate and grow their business, take advantage of like coaching and training and educational type of costs, I would say, "how do you justify that expense?" At the end of the year, if you're going to have an excess of income, that's going to be tax liable. And in these educational costs, and so you might as well invest instead of giving that money to Uncle Sam, give it to Uncle Jason and find a way to maximize and grow that kind of that ROI. I would say that's probably something that a lot of novice kind of entrepreneurs don't probably put too much emphasis on when they're 1st, embarking on their entrepreneurial journey it's just the importance and significance of education and insight, especially from those that have blazed the path before you, or have exposure to a lot of other folks that are in your same shoes.  [00:24:49] Jason: It really is probably one of my greatest secrets in how we've scaled and built DoorGrow and the success we've had is once I finally stopped being the idiot that thought they could do everything and watch all the videos on YouTube and read books and figure it out myself. [00:25:05] I started to collapse time significantly when I got coaches and mentors and we shell out a lot of money to coaches and mentors and I've got some amazing ones right now, like really amazing coaches and mentors. And what it does is, yes, I'm spending more money, but I'm decreasing time. So it's collapsing time for me significantly. [00:25:24] I'm making a lot less mistakes. I'm not having to figure it out because every stage of business, you're stepping into the dark. And it's nice if somebody has already been there before you 'cause they're not in the dark about it. So they're like, "Oh yeah, just do this and do this. I've already tried that and that, and it doesn't work." And I was like, that's what I was going to do. And the same thing, the majority of the people that come to me are like, "I'm having trouble growing my business." And I'm like, "cool. What do you, what have you been trying? Or what are you planning to do at the startup stage?" [00:25:50] They're like, "I'm going to do internet marketing and SEO, pay per click," they're going to do everything. All the biggest companies that they're competing with are already spending way more money than them doing it. And they're just going to do it worse. And that's their strategy. "I'm going to do what the big companies are doing, but worse. And I'm going to try and charge less money. I'll be cheaper. And I will somehow provide better service." And I'm like, "good luck with that." And so we don't know what we don't know. And we make mistakes at each stage. And the secret to collapsing time is to spend money and invest in yourself. You get that back. [00:26:21] There's a big ROI. All right. Thanks for helping us sell door. I appreciate it.  [00:26:24] Sarah: All right. So if you're looking for tax write offs at the end of the year, sign up with DoorGrow, we can help. Yeah. Don't give your money to the government.  [00:26:31] Jason: And then we'll help you make more money. Nobody stays with us unless we're helping them make more money. [00:26:36] Sarah: Yeah, they haven't helped me yet.  [00:26:38] Jason: Taxes are not giving you an ROI.  [00:26:39] Sarah: Next year when we audited them, they're like..  [00:26:42] Mo: Another thing that I wanted to comment on, actually, a lot of people may not be aware of is between the COVID period of time, there's a Biden had released this this new initiative to be able to give back payable taxes. [00:26:53] And so if you had full time employees, between 2020 and 2021, I think it's up to $25,000 for each employee for each year, and that you can potentially be entitled to up to that amount. And so if you had full time employees, and that's free money, that's not free money. Technically, those are Payroll taxes that your organization already paid, but the government is literally just give it back to you as part of this initiative. [00:27:16] I'll take my payroll taxes back. That sounds great. The only requirement is that you had, you kept people on full time payroll during the 2020, 2021 year. And that those folks were with you for at least a year. And that those were actual W2 employees, not 1099.  [00:27:31] Jason: Okay. That's worth talking about it. [00:27:34] Oh, she's up on all this.  [00:27:37] Sarah: I don't know. Did you think I would have missed that? Okay. I'm telling you, I'm like-  [00:27:43] Jason: She has some strange hobbies. Alright. I do, I know. Mo this has been really interesting. I appreciate you coming and hanging out on the show. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your company and how you can help people with some of this stuff if they're listening to all this going, "man, this is a bunch of gobbledygook I really could use help making this all make sense, and I thought Appfolio was an accounting system for my business" and they're just trying to figure it all out. How can they get ahold of you?  [00:28:07] Mo: Great question. Before I comment on that, one, one thing that I do want to the misconception of Hey, just because you bought accounting software doesn't mean you bought accounting experts. [00:28:14] Sarah: Okay. Oh, that's so good. I love, I'm going to use that.  [00:28:18] Jason: The experts are worth a lot more to me than software.  [00:28:22] Mo: And usually there'll be priced a lot higher too, because the software, the proper application of it, it's like buying, It's like buying a seesaw or hammer or some tool, it's much cheaper to actually buy the tool versus buying or having the expert that's actually going to be utilizing the tool to build whatever. The peace of mind to me is priceless. So it is. I lead a group, a consulting group balance asset solutions been over for a little bit over 7 years. We are a CPA and technology advisory firm assisting clients with accounting, CFO services, like taxes, acquisition, disposition strategy, software implementations we're partners with a lot of the accounting systems like Yardi, and Appfolio, and Propertyware, and Buildium. We also help with Department of Real Estate audits and forensic accounting customer reporting, fund management. We're here to help maximize the value out of your subscription, streamline your business with technology and software, and give you time back to spend on the things that matter to your business, which is growing kind of your top line and working with your tenants and owners. We have clients in over 35 states and we have deep expertise when it comes to the trust accounting gap, the department of real estate compliance representation. So consultations are free and you can find us online at www. balancedassetsolutions. com.  [00:29:33] Jason: Man, that's an awesome combo, nerdy accountants. [00:29:36] That's like the best combo ever, right? All right. Super cool. All right. So hopefully some people are reaching out to you right now when they're watching this and we appreciate you coming on the show.  [00:29:46] Mo: Of course. Thank you so much, Jason. Take care.  [00:29:48] Jason: All right. Take care. If you are a property management entrepreneur, you're wanting to grow your business, reach out to us at DoorGrow. [00:29:54] We would love to help you out. You can check us out at doorgrow.Com and join our free Facebook group at doorgrowclub.Com. Bye everyone. [00:30:00] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:30:26] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In today's episode I'm welcoming Melissa Davis to talk about how to get clarity and direction in our business by knowing our values. We delve into the crucial process of translating our values into tangible actions and enabling us to authentically 'walk our talk.' Join us as we explore how this deep reflection on our values not only aligns with our purpose but serves as a guiding force toward genuine business clarity. This episode is a compass for solopreneurs navigating the path of purpose-driven business in the evolving landscape of conscious entrepreneurship. In our conversation, Melissa and I addressed the following topics: How Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and ‘walk our talk' How this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and much more...   Ep 182 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers, because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zannakroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're Ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like Like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer 1 on 1 support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, General business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years Business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, Wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my 1 on 1 client. You can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, Have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane dot marketing. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the p of Personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7 p's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here, this is your first time, a very big warm welcome. But you may not know what I'm talking about, You can go to download your 1 page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the 7 [00:03:00] Ps of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash guanpage, the number 1 in the word page. And this comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So today, I'm talking to Melissa Davis about the importance of your values. And if you're familiar with my work, you know how much I care about values as well. I wrote about them in the Marketing Like Human book and they are also part of the Marketing Like We're Human program. And it's really by talking with Melissa that I realized How knowing your values really gives you clarity and direction in your business. I always knew they were important and At the Marketing Like We're Human program is this foundational marketing program, but when she mentioned clarity and direction, I'm like, yeah, I'm totally with you. Before I tell you a little bit more about [00:04:00] Melissa, allow me to share a little bit more about The marketing like we're human, AKA the client resonator, my flagship program that I've been running since 2009 19 pre COVID, imagine that. And, uh, it starts again with a live cohort on March fourteenth. So today I was just talking to a potential participant and described the program to him as a program for deep thinkers. I think you heard me say that before on this podcast. I really feel Like a deep thinker myself, and I feel like that's who I do my best work with. And so, yeah, it's a program for deep thinkers who want to create their marketing foundation once and for all. So starting from within, from their why, and aligned with whom they are and aligned with their values. So if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you [00:05:00] are already familiar with the 7 p's of humane marketing. So passion, Personal power, people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership. And that's exactly the framework that the program follows. And besides in-depth videos and workbooks, we also have a weekly call to deepen the content of these topics. Even though I say it's about the marketing foundation, I often have participants who are not really new to business. So, Yes. It's foundational. But oftentimes, in business, we come to the foundation maybe 2 years in, maybe 5 years in, or even 10 years in. And that's because first, we are just wanting to Do the marketing stuff, you know, the the the the how. We are interested in the how. And so a lot of times people come to me after being 2 years, [00:06:00] 5 years, or 10 years, and often that's kind of when they're pivoting In their business and they've been through the motions. They've done what people told them to do in their marketing and just realized, A, it's not working. Or b, it may have been working, but it brought them the wrong clients or it's just not aligned with Them or their bigger why. So, yeah, that that's probably a third, um, uh, participant is Is the 1 that is looking for this bigger why. That has been in business and of course, I'm talking a little bit about myself and that's why I created the program. Um, so, you know, I had a business, a LinkedIn consultancy business for 10 plus years, but I just Felt like there's more than that. There's more than just the business that pays the bills. And so that's really what this, uh, program also does. It Connects you with your why, it connects you with your [00:07:00] life's work, and, uh, creates this foundation that is aligned with who you are and allows you to bring more of you to your marketing. Yeah. So that's what we do. We we go deep and we create the Foundation once and for all so that you can find out which marketing activities will flow for you. It's part Self development, part very pragmatic business best practices, part left, part right brain, mind and heart. And if that's resonating with you, have a look at the program details and watch some of the case studies, uh, as well at, uh, humane dot marketing forward slash program. And then let's get on a call to answer your questions and find out if it's a good Fit for you and where you currently are in your business. Okay. Back to Melissa. So Melissa Davis is on a mission to make sure that every change [00:08:00] maker gets the clarity they need to reach their full potential and deliver their gifts to the world. Through her work with startups, entrepreneurs, and change makers, she's uncovered an Invaluable process for helping them get foundational clarity, love that, on their purpose and Packed so they can go out and into the world and start top taking action. So in our conversation, we addressed the following topics, how Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and actually walk our talk. So going beyond Just that poster in our office that has our values up there. Well, how do we actually bring them into our business, bring them into our marketing? And then also how this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and, uh, of [00:09:00] course, so much more. So Without further ado and blah blah, let's, uh, dive right in. Hey, Melissa. So good to see you. Talk to you again. Really delighted to have you on the humane marketing podcast. Melissa: Oh, I'm really excited to be here. Um, I love your work, Sarah, and I have your book right here. I mean, um, rereading. Yeah. I I, um, I'm thrilled to To kind of sit down and, and, and really just dive into all of this because I think it's so important, um, To me as well. Um, and I just I really love I really love the work you're Sarah: doing. Thank you. And and maybe we can start by sharing how we Connected. I think that's always interesting for, uh, listeners to hear because, you know, there's this rare occasion where I do accept, Uh, a podcast pitch, but it's very rare. Most [00:10:00] often, it's, you know, conversations or, uh, Kind of like serendipity meetings like ours, uh, that then lead me to say, hey. I want you on my podcast. So why why don't you start by sharing that story? I'm trying to remember the story. Melissa: Did I reach I reached out Sarah: to you. Yeah. You reached out to me where, uh, we were connected on the collect, Uh, the, um Oh, yeah. Melissa: That's right. Changing work collective. Changing work Sarah: collective. Yeah. And so you reached out to me there. And then I was, like, Looking at your website and it said, Humanity Inc. I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yes. You know, there's serendipity right there. Yeah. Yeah. And so we Melissa: have Well, that's what I thought when I read your, you know, your bio, and I I think I saw you post, um, may it may have been something about the book. Um, right. And it was just like, I've gotta connect to Sarah. You know, you know you know when when you see it. You know you know when [00:11:00] you see That authenticity, um, show up. Yeah. And and it just it it felt like we needed to connect. Sarah: Yeah. And here we are a few months later. Thank you. Um, so, yeah, let's let's talk about Well, you mentioned authenticity. Uh, we wanna talk about values because that's the work you do. So maybe start us off there. Like, How did you get into this work and why did you call like, I have so many questions. Why do you call Your website, Humanity Inc, and what does that have to do with values? I guess that's my Melissa: first question. Okay. So there's like a little figure 8 of a story here. Um, so I got into values. So values was the initial impetus for me to kind of leave, um, Um, traditional work and go off on my own. Um, so I'd worked with, um, a few I'd [00:12:00] Worked with a few different larger organizations and then, um, a few smaller startup organizations. And, Um, what triggered my exploration of values was actually misalignment to values. And I think that's probably how everybody starts to recognize This distance between them and something else that's happening. Right? So, you know, what I recognized specifically in in The the the 1 startup that I'd been with for 5 years, um, was that we didn't have A singular set of values that drove us all in the same direction. And and so, You know, when I sat where I sat in the office, I was looking at this wall with these, you know, you can buy that big sticker with whatever writing you want on it. And I had the values of the organization. And I sat there every day and I rolled my eyes at this list of values that the organization said They were driven by, [00:13:00] and it was just bullshit. You know, I hope I can swear on your podcast. I'm sorry. Yeah. No. It really wasn't. It was just and and so I started calling them eye roll values. And I don't know if I started doing that at the time, but I definitely did later. Um, you know, and it's kind of like the worst thing that can, you know, erode an organization is having declaring that this is what we're all about, But we don't reflect that at all within our organization. So we kind of tried to dig in and and really understand What was happening in the organization? What were our, you know, um, driving values? What what came what brought us all together To grow in in the direction the organization wanted us to. Um, and so eventually I left That organization, because no 1 was interested in looking at that with me. No 1. You know, I mean, particularly in the leadership, um, There. And so [00:14:00] that was really frustrating. So my first experience with exploring values was incredibly frustrating, but, but it, It just really led me to kind of dig in further. And I, and I really developed this whole structure around it, you know, and, and continue to just Build on how I understood values and the roles that they played. And it was really focused on within organizations. Um, and I landed a a really fantastic job, um, And was incredibly excited about it. It was really aligned to my values. It was aligned to the work that I wanted to be doing with values embedded in my work. Um, and I ended up being laid off 3 months later when the giant client that I was brought in to to support left. And as most layoffs go, they're the best thing that's ever happened to you. You know, I mean, if you've ever been laid off, it's devastating at the time. But if you ask 9 [00:15:00] out of 10 People who ever, you know, got laid off ends up being the best thing that's ever happened to them in their career. And that's true for me as well. So, Um, you know, initially set off to continue my job search, um, and advance my career, and I just couldn't nothing. Nothing sounded good. I had a few offers. I just I couldn't stomach it. I would read these job descriptions, and I was just like, Do this. I don't wanna do any of it. It all makes me nauseous. It all just felt so shallow and so Boring, and I just I just couldn't do it. I really, like I physically was like, Do it, um, which is funny because I was pretty driven before. Um, and and it really struck me at that point that I've been doing all this work of examining organizations. Right? Like, why am I not turning this in on myself so that I could Figure out what this thing is that you [00:16:00] felt this fire, like just restlessness to do something completely different. Um, and it didn't occur to me until then to turn the work I was doing in values around on myself. Right. Uh, and that's really, that's the impetus for me going into business. Now, at the time, that business became values to brand, and it was focused on marketing. Um, I'd had some experience in marketing. Um, I went off and I studied with Donald Miller and I became a guide. Um, I'm no longer, um, a StoryBrand guide, but it was incredibly valuable for me to kind of build, Um, you know, some authority in the marketing space and their, um, their model, um, and Structure around it is just so incredibly simple and and wonderful. Um, and so When was that? So when was this whole? 2017 Teen maybe ish. No. Eights are not my thing. No, mine [00:17:00] neither. You have to be 18. My husband is the master of the debates. Right. You know, like, what what time was Owen born? You know, like, I'm like, I don't know. There's just my brain doesn't work like that. Right. Um, and I've worked in accounting. Um, so yeah. And and and so I continued in that, and And it just over time evolved into really understanding that what I was doing wasn't marketing And what I loved wasn't marketing. I could do it and I became incredibly proficient at it and fantastic at writing and articulating What other people couldn't articulate well, um, and that is that's a real gift of mine. Um, it's But I discovered it really wasn't marketing. And what I really wanted to do was help people get clarity because I started working with organizations, it was very small Organizations, but organizations, um, [00:18:00] in their marketing efforts. And I had a lot of technology background, so it was really easy to kind of like dive in. But they had they actually had no clarity around how they wanted to talk about what they needed to in their marketing. And so I kind of went, I need to be back here further. I need to be earlier in the journey. Mhmm. Um, and Mhmm. Because that's what I that's my gift. I I'm really fantastic at pulling putting dots together, and it all starts with values. Values just they there's So many roles that values play. It's we we often look at values in this very thin kind of, um, lens Of what's important to me. You're right. And values are so, so much more than that. And there's so much tangible evidence in our lives to tell us what our values are and to explore them and to reveal themselves to us. And so it's really accessible and it offers so much information [00:19:00] about our gifts and about our passion and What we really want to be doing with our lives and who to surround ourselves with and how to go at it. And so, um, And I was so passionate about doing work that mattered and solving problems that really advance humanity. Not, You know, not this localized sense of I just wanna make my life better, which is fantastic, and I think that That's a step. Um, but what really was important to me was to work with clients who had a sew that. Right? This idea that This work matters because I wanna help solve this bigger problem in the world. Right. Yeah. And so it eventually changed to Humanity Inc. Sarah: Okay. So the the website then changed to Humanity Inc. Yeah. And And, yeah, really, there was this huge resonance when I when I saw the [00:20:00] website, Humanity Inc, but then also when we had This conversation a few months back when you were sharing about the values, and I'm like, yeah, that's how I'm talking about the worldview And how, you know, in the in the 7 p's of humane marketing, you you start with passion and personal power, Which is exactly what you said. I'm earlier in the journey, and so that's what you're helping your clients with. Um, and and 1 word that really stood out as Well, is the word that you use clarity. And and I have been starting to say foundation. So it Melissa: Like That's what I end up call I call myself a foundational clarity Sarah: coach. Ah, there you go. Yeah. So so it really is that that saying where it's like, well, Yeah. You need clarity, and then you need that clarity to build your foundation. And that's what in a way, that's what you did. You figured out your values, And then you brought those values into your business and into your marketing and called it [00:21:00] humanity, Inc. Because you care about these Melissa: things. And so you want And my clients care about those things. Right? You want to help people. Yeah. Our our niche, our clients value what we value and they believe what we believe. Exactly. And it's within the scope of the values that we are driving and making central to our business. Right? We have, You know, we we have a lot of beliefs and we have, um, a number of values that are very central to us. And, you know, what we do is kind of like, what's the, Um, what's the stake in the ground that I'm putting out there and what are the values that drive that? And our niche, You know, our, our customers and our clients, they share those values and they believe what we believe. And so, you know, it drives me crazy when I see an entrepreneur trying to understand the values of their niche. And I'm like, you have to understand your values. Right. Your values. Absolutely. Start with you. Decide your niche. Yeah. [00:22:00] Mhmm. Yeah. And then you may have to figure Sarah: out the next thing I can do. Out there is so outward focused. Right? Yes. We feel like we're wasting time if we're look looking inside. And so I guess the question then, The logical next step question is, well, knowing my values, how do I turn those values into tangible Actions or, you know, business advice. So Melissa: take us there. Oh, that's the most exciting part. I mean, Our values provide so many clues as to what our outward action needs to look like. Um, you know, and they play different roles. You know, some of our Our highest values are part of the problem that we solve for our niche. [00:23:00] And that's a little bit of a process, but that really that 1 in particular kind of blows people's minds. Right? We're all, I think at our core, 1 of our deepest drives as human beings beyond safety and belonging Is to live in alignment to our values because that leads us to this Fulfillment, right, and to the these higher levels in the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the pathway to doing that is actually living in alignment to our values. At the base of that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, values don't play, um, a role. They don't play as big of a role In, um, in making sure that we're safe, making sure that we're fed, making sure that we have a roof over our house. Right? It's kinda hard to focus on values When we have to take care of our basic needs. Beyond that, as we, you know, as we move through belonging and then and then further up, our drive [00:24:00] Is to feel passionate and to feel fulfilled and happy and surround ourselves with people that are like us. And so, um, there's good sides to that, and there's not so good sides to that. Right? You know, our values kind of shift and evolve A little bit over time, they they reprioritize, um, but there is this massive drive to do that. And so what happens throughout our journey, wherever we are, whatever we're doing and whatever we desire, there's often a value of ours that we struggle to live. Right? So our values, um, we can have really strong values for something and not do a very good job of living it. Um, if if a value is not lived, we feel this Dissonance, this cognitive dissonance. And it it can actually make us feel sick. So we know it when it happens. We we don't feel good about ourselves. We don't feel good about our lives. We don't Feel right? We feel unfulfilled. Um, [00:25:00] and so what we do is we seek to close that gap, Right? In a lot of different ways. Some are healthy and some are not healthy. Um, but we reach urgency See, when we realize I've gotta do something that allows me to live this value, um, at a much higher level. And so ultimately, every problem that any entrepreneur solves is tied to helping our Clients and customers close the gap on a value that they're not living very well. Mhmm. And we may directly do it or we may indirectly do it, but we've got to And how we connect to living their values. And so that is 1 of the most direct ways that our values play into how we show up as entrepreneur, but they also determine our differentiation. I wanna work with, You know, I can work with any marketing expert. What differentiates you, Sarah, [00:26:00] you know, and your teaching Is your values. Right? Um, and it's 1 element of it, but it's probably the most important element of differentiation is I wanna work with somebody who shares my values. Right? It's important to me to get visible. I'm talking about myself right now. It's important for me to get visible. I have something really important that I want and need the world to know, and I have something to offer that I think is really important because We need more change makers to get out there and do the work of solving the big problems so that we can advance humanity. Right? Exactly. Okay. That value that I'm closing there for myself and for my clients is accountability. It's this sense of I must, I I know I have a higher potential and I've got to live it. I have this accountability to it. Um, if I sit here and I don't get visible and I don't do it Right. I'm not living my value of accountability. I'm sitting on my [00:27:00] butt and I'm wasting away and I'm not doing the thing. Um, and what I'm drawn to with you is is your value of Living in in your conscience, living in showing up in a humane way And living in compassion. And so that is How you do the work that you do. And it's important to me to align with somebody that does that because I don't wanna go out and spam The world with anything. Right? I can't this this interview is incredibly timely because I just really, like, hit my limit on the number of Invitations that I get on LinkedIn that are immediately followed by a pitch. I saw your Sarah: post. Yeah. Melissa: I'm like, And not doing it anymore. Um, and I've said that before and I still do it because I'm like, what if they're [00:28:00] like the most wonderful connection that I ever, you know, Um, I'm probably an eternal optimist, and I really I really don't like to shut people down and live in that energy. Um, but then it happens, and I'm deeply disappointed. And I'm like, why were you disappointed in this, Melissa? Well, it's that value. Right? Yeah. Um, so we work with people, right? There are operating values that we have, and there are differentiation. You know, they're how we show up To do the work that we do. And we must really embrace those values because that's what other people are are very much attracted to. We have very little competition in the world. Right? Mhmm. Very little competition in the world because Yeah. The way that you do it, the uniqueness Of how you do it is incredibly different from everyone around you. Yeah. There are plenty of people, right, That are drawn to it, but you have to get visible. I know we were talking about that before. So you still need to get out there. [00:29:00] Um, but then Yeah. But that's the targeted Sarah: action that we were saying. Well, how do you turn this these values that are internal Into something external. Um, well, you just said it. Right? It's like, okay, I wanna be visible, but I don't wanna just be visible in any kind of spammy way. Right? Yeah. You would never do that and just start spamming everybody, um, um, LinkedIn with with your pitches. So So it's like the value gets transformed or transmitted to the action that you're taking. And And for you, it's values. For me, it's worldview or the humane approach to whatever you do. And It's so true. And another thing that came up when you mentioned the Maslow's pyramid, I'm like, yeah. That's that's really good because my I call my people and I know you are a deep thinker as well. Right? That's kind of for me, that's a flag. It's like, this person is a deep Thinker, just like me. And they don't, you [00:30:00] know, they they they look at things. Yeah. They just think Deeply about things and they care. Uh, you know, humane marketing is for the generation of marketers that care. It's this deep deep Care and thinking about things. Um, and you're right. That doesn't happen at the bottom of the pyramid. Right? It's like you Have evolved, uh, or Yeah. Well, you can't Melissa: the privilege as well. You have the privilege. Exactly right. And have the privilege to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's too it's too much. Um, it had it happens. There are some people who can who can do that And who are struggling to to make it, um, for whatever reason, um, through the hierarchy of needs, it happens. But it's very it's it's too much to ask for someone who is who is struggling to Strictly aligned to their values, [00:31:00] um, and to focus on that and and to be able to do that. And it's it's, uh, yeah. Sarah: Yeah. And we need to, you know, understand that and show empathy because we're not in the same situation. Melissa: So Exactly. Right. And have someone that they can work with. Right. Or something that we can offer. Right. That, um, is more accessible. Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. This whole conversation also made me think of, uh, another conversation I had on the podcast about activism, Like business, uh, as activism. Right? And in a way, we're we're almost talking about that here because Especially because we care, you say, you know, humanity. You mentioned the current, uh, challenges. So in a way, it's almost like it's Borderline activism because we are truly just saying, no, we're not just doing it for the profit. We're really wanting it to do also [00:32:00] to move humanity or, you know, solve the problems we were facing right now. Melissa: Yeah. And it is like, I, you know, I, I use word, put a stake in the ground, you know, what do you stand for? Uh, and I think that Oftentimes that gets confused with, I have to have an opinion about everything, or I have to show my solidarity With what's happening in the world or I have to make a statement, and that's not what it means. What it means is I understand the lane That I'm passionate about. Mhmm. I understand where my stake in the ground Is and where people are looking to me for my thoughts and opinions and solidarity and strength. Mhmm. And, Um, I've I I and I do struggle with this even. You know, um, you know, when you when you look at what's happening in the world and people around you look for A [00:33:00] statement. Right. Something big happens. And I think we all have to kind of look internally and say, what What is my lane? Is this something that the world is looking to me for my thoughts Um, there that's a big difference between reaching out to the people in your lives who And having conversations. Yeah. And having conversations. That's not what I'm talking about. Right. Yeah. Um, but I think it's very challenging. I think the world is is, And social media specifically conflates this sense of having a stake in the ground with Showing up to every big thing that happens and demanding that you put a stake in the ground in a space that's not yours. And But it's such a good point. Yeah. Quite a big challenge to me. And I, um, have to remind myself all the [00:34:00] time that That's not my I didn't put a stake in the ground on that fight. If I had, then it is demanded that I that I Have something to say, I suppose. Yeah. Um, you know Sarah: what I use for this? I use the 17 sustainable development goals for this with my clients, And I have you know, this is the UN who basically looked at all the current challenges that we have and said, okay. Here are 17 that are currently really pressing. Um, and so I have my clients look at that and say, look. All of these problems right now are super important. Uh, all of them, all 17, but you can't focus your energy on all 17. So Choose 1 or Melissa: 2 maximum. I would argue. Sarah: I would argue. 1. Yeah. 1 is this number 17 is partnership. And so I feel like that applies to, like, almost everything because we need partnership and [00:35:00] community in Melissa: every That's a how though. It Sarah: yeah. It's it's almost like it's kind of a side. Right? Because the other ones are are, you know, Water, ocean, um, climate, like electricity Melissa: and all of that. So so yeah. It's almost like unity. You know? Exactly. So Sarah: that's why I say Pick 2, but make sure a partnership is 1 of them. Right. But but then yeah. Exactly what you say. Then it's like, well, if, You know, that there's something going on that has to do with that topic, then, yes. You know, people expect you to maybe make a statement. Um, but if it's not, then then it's not it's not your role to to to pitch in. So I I really like how you said it. Is it my lane? Is this expect because I use the word worldview, And there as well, it could be like, oh, I have to always express my worldview about this and this and this. Yeah. Like, no. I I [00:36:00] actually don't feel good about Because then we have the polarity, you know, with all these wars that are going on right now. And so it's like, well, no. I don't need to say, you know, if I'm I'm not usually, I'm not on any side, but I yeah. It's not part of My role, even I guess, as an activist, it wouldn't be part of of my role in this case. Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and There are times when I think that we do need to make a stand. There are definitely, you know, Points where it's incredibly relevant to our work to do it. Um, and and then we should. You know, it's just deciding, Is this because we feel the pressure to, you know, is this something that's relevant Yeah. To be in my work? Um, not just everyone's making a statement, and therefore I need to. Mhmm. So [00:37:00] Because, of course, we have opinions and we have thoughts and we have, you know, I mean, um, and explorations and confusion and, you know, and And questions and it but it doesn't mean that that and and I'm talking about a brand. I'm talking about, You know, us as humans behind a brand and a business and this stake in the ground that we've put around, what do we stand for? And this is why I'm doing the work that I'm doing. Right? That's what I'm talking about. And it's it is. It's incredibly challenging. However, understanding what you Stand for understanding your values, understanding, as you said, the roles that I play. What is my role in my work? And then how do I show up through that role to make a statement, um, or to Further my stake in the ground or to explain or whatever, that's incredibly helpful to take action. Mhmm. Because actions are how we live our values. Right? What are the roles that, Um, [00:38:00] that embody me and who I am that allow me to live my values. So, um, they're, they're incredibly helpful for understanding when it's right, you know, and how to, um, Take action on anything, not just, you know, not just activism, but but on anything. How do I show up on social media? How do I show up? It's walking the talk. Yeah. How do I show up? Right? Those are the roles. Mhmm. Sarah: I wanna talk a little bit about The idea of changing values. So not us necessarily, um, but more like Humanity at large. Right? I feel like we're going through a huge shift of changing values. Um, right now, Uh, maybe we're still in the middle of the storm, but we're definitely getting towards something, um, Kind of more conscious and, you know, at [00:39:00] least the the probably the the people that we hang out with, Uh, have very different values from maybe, uh, our grandparents had. So how have you looked at this also kind of in from a larger Effective, you know, how do generations how do their values change? Melissa: Yeah. It's really interesting to look at, And it's not something that I've spent a lot of time focusing on, you know, the the the evolution of values because Cultures have these kind of underlying, you know, values that drive them. Um, communities have values that drive them. Generations have values is that drive them. Um, and so there are all these different flavors of these group values. Right. And, you know, and then we have our individual values. And values come from a lot of different places and named a couple, but Religion, our family, you know, our culture, right? There are all these kind of [00:40:00] outside forces that impose values on us. Right. And then we have these innate values, these things that we're, like, born with or that develop from experiences that we have in our lives. And for whatever reason, they're all there, for right or for wrong. And, you know, values, We often put this kind of positive slant on values, and there's this incredibly powerful driver that values can have on us. But there's also dark side of values, Right? Values are how we show up in our bias. Values are how we show up in our judgment. And so they Aren't always positive drivers in our lives. So it's really interesting to look at, you know, how they influence How we move around in the world and how we see things in front of us. Um, and so It's fascinating to look at. It is fascinating to look at how things shift and change because those cultural values, those [00:41:00] religious values, right? I think what's happening is that we're questioning more Than we were before. Right. So I think all of that's still happening. Right? There's always an evolution of cultural values. There's always an evolution of Religious values and of course through generations, those values that get passed on change too because our parents have different experiences in the world and they want to Still different things in us. And so there's just an evolution that happens. But I think what's happening now is that we're questioning it more. I think we're going, is that mine? Is it really my responsibility to carry on this value? Is it it's not mine. It's my parents. It's it's it's this religion that I don't wanna have anything to do with anymore. It's this Culture in America that's toxic. Right? It's not mine. I think we're just [00:42:00] I think we're more introspective. Well, general You and I Sarah: also everybody. About change makers. Right? And so just this word change maker, well, obviously, We want change. And so, clearly, our values can be the same as the values that, Uh, our parents or grandparents had. Yep. So we are looking for something that is different than we have today. And so, necessarily, our values need to be not according to, you know, what has worked in the past 50 years. So I I feel like, yeah, that's fascinating too. And I'm sure you kinda see a pattern with your clients as well that often the values are, Melissa: you know, similar. So Of course, they are because my clients value what I value and they believe what I believe. Now that doesn't mean they're exactly the same by any stretch. And that's the beautiful thing. I think I would be bored out of my skull if [00:43:00] every client I worked with wanted to do what I did and had the exact same values and the same experiences. That's not even close to true. Right. Their experiences with their values are so incredibly different. They show up in so many different ways, and they drive them in different ways. And the combination we have these like, oh, I get so excited talking about this. There's this magical combination of these values that we have that come together That, like, create they they they make a shape out of this fire that we have. And it's So cool to see that come together. I often could see it coming together before they do. And so they're like, I don't know why you're so excited about this. But, you know, you can you can really see it. You can see the essence of Sarah when I see that magical combination and Why this stake in the ground is so important to you and how these gifts that you have come together in this way that allow you to go out and do that. [00:44:00] And, um, yeah, I think we're, we're just, um, we're getting to the point where We're invested in in understanding ourselves at a really deep level, and I think that's expanding. I think people Know that it's possible. You know, we we kinda have this when we talk about conscious or, you know, inhumane marketing and, Um, being more compassionate about the world and open minded. And when we look at social media, we're like, ugh. Right? However, social media and the Internet have also done amazing things for open mindedness and for Exposing us to ideas and thoughts and solutions and pathways that we never would have been exposed to. And so I think that is also contributing to this idea of it's possible for me to move from this [00:45:00] state of being to another State of being or from this state of action to another state of action and to experience this transformation and this capability that I have To go out and do something big. Mhmm. And so for some people, what would just be this little, like, forever frustration Of knowing they have potential that, you know, that just dies with them at the end of their lives. They're realizing that there are pathways to take action on it And do something about it. And to me, that's the the most tragic is to have that and to know that you have this fire, to know that you have this Big potential and to never have taken action on it. Sarah: Yeah. What you described before is basically the definition of a change maker. Right? It's like, okay, I I know I I can contribute to this change. And and, um, I was having another conversation about pivots. I [00:46:00] was part of some summit about pivots, and I feel like there's Such an awakening of, uh, pivots now because people are kinda like you a few years ago. Right? You're in this corporate job, And you just like, I know we can do something much bigger than Melissa: what we're doing. I didn't even know what it looked like. It Sarah: was just Yeah. It's just like this Inner knowing, and it's like, well, I need to get out of this prison, and I just need to create it myself. And I feel like there's a lot of and a lot of people in this Melissa: Situation. And to be clear, I had to take a part time job to do that. Of course. No. That's the other thing. It's like you can't just jump ship and then Well, you can. But I I wanna, like, you know, I hate when, you know, it seems to somebody from the outside that, you know, you just make this jump. I just decided, and now I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm making a million no. That's not what happened. Right? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, [00:47:00] um, there is Nothing wrong with taking the step and saying, okay, what do I need to do to allow myself to take this The step towards what I know is bigger. And I'm like, you know Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I feel like we're at a very Promising crossroad, um, of of change. So I'm just super grateful that you're helping all these change makers find clarity because That is the 1 thing that can waste you a lot of time if you don't have clarity. Right? Melissa: Um, and I'm so grateful that you're helping them Figure out how to get out into the world with the message that they, that they have and need to deliver and to grow. Because if we can't grow, we can't impact. Yeah. Period. That's the thing. I mean, that's that's it. Right? Right. Sarah: You know? I feel like that's a a beautiful place to to close. This was wonderful. Thanks so much for [00:48:00] being here. 2 things. Um, please do share where people can find out more about humanity and your work on clarity and values. So share that. And then I have another last Melissa: question. Okay. Um, so you can find me on my website, Um, humanityinc dot world. Um, and you can find me on LinkedIn, um, at melissa highsley hyphen davis. And if you have show notes, so we can put it there so that you don't have to try to spell that. Um, those are the 2 primary places that I hang out. Sarah: Yeah. And my my last question that I always ask is, what are you grateful for today or this week? This year, I can say because we're at the beginning of the Melissa: year. Um, well, I'm grateful that you invited me on this podcast and I was really excited to be here because I I really do love your work so much. Um, and let's say this year, [00:49:00] um, I'm grateful for Realizing that I needed to bring other people into my work. Mhmm. And for that shift of I need to create this myself to I need to collaboration has always been really important to me, but but there's this I mean, you know, you're a creator too. And I don't know. There is it's tough. It's tough when you're creating To shift from creating to sharing. And and so it's, um, I'm grateful for that shift. I'm very grateful for that shift, and I'm grateful that I'm getting more comfortable being a lot more visible. And so I'm really excited, um, about everything. Yay. Sarah: Thank you for moments. Right? It's kinda like Exactly. Melissa: That's what I [00:50:00] live for. And it's really fun when they're your own too. Sarah: Yeah. It's amazing. Thanks so much for being here and, uh, to be continued, of course. To be continued. Thank you. As always, I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Hopefully, uh, that makes you think deeper about your values and how they impact your work. In order to find out more about Melissa and Her work, go over to humanity inc dot world, and you can also get her foundational clarity canvas at humanity inc dot dot com forward slash foundational dash clarity dash canvas. And if you are looking for others who think like you, why not join us in the humane marketing circle? You can find out more about The circle at humane dot marketing forward slash circle, and you find the show notes of this episode at [00:51:00] humane dot marketing forward slash h m 1 8 2. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the humane business Festo and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my 2 books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being a part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

One of the biggest questions we get from property management business owners once they start building out their team is “How do I compensate and recognize my team members?” In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the different kinds of compensation structures for different personality types and roles on your team. You'll Learn [02:15] The difference between you and your team [07:56] The problem with giving out percentages [12:13] How to set up commission structures [21:23] Recognizing your team effectively [25:44] Giving out raises and job titles Tweetables “Business is a more effective vehicle than even a charity at creating lasting and impactful change.” “When you dangle the carrot in front of a great salesperson, they will jump off a freaking cliff to get it.” “Your discomfort in giving somebody a raise should be equal to their discomfort in asking for it.” “Recognition costs nothing.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: They need to be invested in like committed to helping you grow this business and helping you move it forward, otherwise they are just dead weight and you're creating a bigger and bigger monster of dead weight as the business grows.  [00:00:14] Welcome DoorGrowers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrower. [00:00:31] DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners. And their businesses, we want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We are your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull, owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:11] That good? Now let's get into the show. All right. We were trying to change the intro right before we did it. And sometimes she's not on it. Sometimes she is. She's mostly on it now. So. Anyway, here we are. So our topic today, I'm getting a lot of questions, a lot of questions, and this has been going on for a long time, but we're getting a lot of questions about compensation. [00:01:37] This just keeps coming up and we see a lot of mistakes when it comes to compensation. So the challenge with compensation is that entrepreneurs think differently than most people that they are paying, and so they make mistakes in how they compensate people because they think it's going to help them get more of what they want and they actually create the opposite. [00:02:00] And so I want you to pay close attention to this today. If you watch this you should not ever ask if you should be giving out a commission or percent sign to somebody or whatever So let's talk about a couple of things here. So where should we start?  [00:02:15] Sarah: Well, I think the best place to start is probably from just for background. [00:02:20] What is the difference between someone who has a sales mindset or entrepreneurial mindset versus someone that may not.  [00:02:30] Jason: Cool. Let's talk about that. The two types of team members that you're going to have. There's two types of people on the planet, those that like money and those that don't. And I know you're thinking, "man, no, everybody likes money." [00:02:42] And you'd be surprised. And so if you had all of your team members take a DISC assessment, there's usually on a nice DISC assessment, a section called the values index. And one of those values is the economic or financial score. And so on the economic or financial score, what you will see is that the score is low, then they don't like money. [00:03:04] And I know that sounds weird. They're not focused on money. They're not trying to get money. Money is not a big part of their psyche. It's just not. And I know entrepreneurs, you don't get this because you like money. Sarah and I do not hate money. We don't hate money. Okay,  [00:03:20] Sarah: I need that shirt. This is the one t shirt. [00:03:22] I'll wear the capitalistic pig shirt  [00:03:24] Jason: Right and so we don't hate money. You probably don't hate money either. If you do hate money and you're an entrepreneur Then you are probably struggling to have money, right. Money is the ability to change lives, make a difference and have impact. This is why business is a more effective vehicle than even a charity at creating lasting and impactful change in my opinion. [00:03:47] Okay? Because it has healthy motivators connected to it. Right. And money is the energy and currency of what everything moves through to happen. Right. So let's talk about this. So if the economic score is low, what does that mean? I'll tell you whose economic score is high. If your economic score is high, you are probably an entrepreneur or a sales person, right? [00:04:11] Those are probably the only two personality types or people that you should be paying out more money or bonuses or commissions to incentivize better behavior. That means most people, you should not be paying bonuses, additional financial compensation to try and motivate or change behavior. Now, if you just want to be generous and it's Christmas, that's different. [00:04:36] But if you're trying to consistently compensate somebody and motivate them, the motivators need to be connected to what your outcomes are and most people are doing it incorrectly. Now, if the economic score is low, this is what this means, they would rather what they most value is recognition. They would rather be recognized. [00:04:55] And recognition costs nothing. It costs nothing. And if you don't give them recognition, but you give them bonuses, it's often the opposite, it has the opposite effect. There's another values index called the charitable score. If they have a high charitable score, which means they might want to volunteer to soup kitchen. [00:05:14] They want to like donate money. They want to give money away, not get money. They want to give money away. And then they have a low end economic score. That means if you pay them more money than what is comfortable for them. You pay them more than that. They will start to become a worse team member. They will start to self sabotage because they feel guilty. And then they're going to project that and externalize it because they have to justify it. They're taking more money. They don't want to give up the more money, but they feel guilty. If Sarah was my boss, it'd be like, "Oh, Sarah's giving me more money. Well, all right. I have to be worth this. So I'm worth this more money. And you know what? I'm entitled now. And maybe I deserve even more because I'm developing this kind of cancerous blind spot of I deserve this money because I feel guilty. So I externalize it. And I blame that uncomfortable feeling on my boss. Oh, well, my boss is like terrible and doesn't do this stuff. So I deserve that more money to compensate for it." And so they start to find fault with the boss and they start to justify them taking this more money cause they feel bad so that they can feel somewhat okay about it. And then their behavior starts to show that and they start to perform worse. [00:06:23] I know entrepreneurs, you're like, "that makes no sense." But that's how a lot of people think. Most people do not enjoy seeking money. This is not their goal.  [00:06:33] Sarah: There is a caveat team members, they have to have enough to be comfortable, right?  [00:06:38] Jason: If they're starving, broke or hurting, they're not comfortable.  [00:06:42] Sarah: In pain or like worried, like, "Oh my God, I might lose my house or I can't feed my kids." [00:06:47] Like. Yeah. We're not saying, Hey, like give them no money, they'll work for free. That's not the case at all. Right. They have to have enough to feel comfortable to make sure that their needs are met and make sure that they're able to provide for themselves and anyone else or anything else that is important to them. [00:07:02] Once they reach that level though, and I think studies have been done on this, which is really interesting to me I don't know if they just surveyed Americans. Don't know, but I think $75k was like that magic number or $65k. It was something like that somewhere in that ballpark is that's like where people feel like they have most people feel like they have enough. [00:07:25] So once they feel like they have enough money to live and be okay and make sure their needs are met and bills are paid and things are taken care of and like Johnny can do soccer and whatever they, you know, they want to do, they don't then go, "well, now I want a hundred and now I want 200." They don't keep trying to climb that ladder. [00:07:46] Once they feel comfortable and they have to make sure that their needs are met, then they're not interested. So if you take it from 75 to a hundred, they're like, "it's okay."  [00:07:55] Jason: Okay. So the other piece to this, another challenge that I see is that because business owners want people to have skin in the game and they want them to, they think everybody wants money, they hand out percent signs. [00:08:08] This is one of the most dangerous things to hand out. We even made a silly video called, what's it called?  [00:08:13] Sarah: I think it's called Percentage Breaks the Property Manager for the Property Management Business.  [00:08:19] Jason: Yeah. So you can check that out on YouTube. But the idea we're playing this, these roles and I'm a business owner and I don't have money in the beginning, so I'm going to pay her a percentage of all the doors that I get in. [00:08:29] We made it ridiculous, like 50%. Right? Which means if you're handing out a percent sign, and we see this all the time, say Sarah's my employee and I'm the boss, and I hand out 50% or whatever to a property manager.  [00:08:42] Sarah: Or even if you're like, "okay, here have 30," because like even 10, 30, 40, I still, I see the that a lot. [00:08:48] Sometimes I see 20.  [00:08:50] Jason: It doesn't matter what the percentage is, right? The challenge is in a business, some property management companies don't even make 10 percent profit margin. And so handing out percent signs is really dangerous for businesses. So what they'll do is hand out a percent sign. So let's say I give her 50%. [00:09:06] That means my 50%. My, the other half, all of the expenses have to come out of that. And usually if a business has 50 percent profit margin, that's pure expense. So then I'm broke. So what happens is she's making more and more money because she has all upside. It's pure profit. And I have all the expenses do not give a percentage to a broker. [00:09:28] Pay them a flat fee of like five, 600 bucks. Do not pay a percentage of broker. If you don't have your broker's license, don't create relationships or situations where you are giving up a percentage to a property manager. "Hey, you get like 50 percent of each door that you get on when you get a 30 percent of each door," whatever, right? [00:09:46] Because then what happens is these property managers, if they're the personality type of handling property management, instead of doing sales, they are not going to be focused on getting more business on. They're going to be focused on just helping run the business and you're giving them more and more money the more doors you get, which means you're making less and less money, right? They're making more and more money, the more doors that you get. And they will get more and more lazy and more and more comfortable because there's no incentive for them to go work harder or hunt or chase to get money. You need to make sure if you're handing out a percent sign in any capacity, that's like giving out ownership of the business and they need to be invested in like committed to helping you grow this business and helping you move it forward, otherwise they are just dead weight and you're creating a bigger and bigger monster of dead weight as the business grows. This is why a lot of people join a franchise and then regret it later on because they're paying out six to eight percent, which is a lot, of their gross revenue not of profit not of what's left over for you. And some business owners. [00:10:56] That's their whole owner payout. Yeah, that's like top one. Some business owners, that's what they take out like you're giving away that to basically to a team member that's not really adding value. I could go on and on about franchises. You can check out my YouTube video about franchises. [00:11:12] I'm obviously like not a fan of the franchise model because I believe it hurts the entire industry. There he said it. All right. So don't hand out percent signs. Do not get into a relationship with a business partner and give them a percent sign unless they are the type that wants to hustle and grow and make money. [00:11:33] The challenge is I see a lot of business partnerships are like, "here's a percent sign" when they should have just said, "here's your salary. You can be the operator." So operator personality types, for example, systems, process, whatever, they don't usually want ownership. They're not often that entrepreneurial type. [00:11:51] They just want to make sure they're getting paid enough and taking care of enough. Now there's exceptions to this, right? But you don't want to be handing out percent signs to somebody unless it's like super critical for growth. And I do not recommend. I recommend in any way possible, don't hand out any percent signs to anybody ever except to yourself and maybe a salesperson. [00:12:13] Now, let's talk about commissions, right? Let's say somebody is money motivated and they can help you make more money. So if they're money motivated, then you need to be using them to help you make more money. If you're going to pay them a percent sign, but you're not going to pay them a percent sign residually. [00:12:30] Because then you're motivating them to not do more work. What you want from a good salesperson or a BDM, a business development manager, or a BD business development person. What you want from them is what? You want results, which is more doors. You want them to add more money to the business. That's the result you want. [00:12:49] So you're going to pay for them to get more business, not keeping the business because keeping the business is the rest of the team. And that's fulfillment. So don't pay them a percentage residual. You pay them a percentage of maybe the first month or the, like some sort of commission upfront. [00:13:07] And it could be a percent, or it could just be a flat fee. Like, "Hey, we'll give you 200 bucks or 300 bucks or 500 bucks or per unit that you bring on." and give them an incentive. So that means they have an incentive every month. They stay to hunt and to chase. Now, another mistake people make with salespeople is like, "I want to get a salesperson, but I want to have zero downside and I want all the upsides. [00:13:33] So they create another unfair structure where they're like, I will pay you pure commission. And if you don't hunt and kill, you starve. And if you hunt and kill, I make money and we both make money." so I need to address this. That only makes sense if you are giving the salesperson, all of the leads, they have a great follow up and nurture system, and all they do is show up to calls and close.  [00:13:56] Sarah: Now, can you clarify what giving them the leads means? Because you're like, "Oh here's the leads. Like, here's a list of 10, 000 people."  [00:14:04] Jason: Okay. That's not what I mean.  [00:14:05] Sarah: So yeah, exactly. So let's clarify that.  [00:14:09] Jason: Okay.  [00:14:09] Sarah: So 18, 000 people in my CRM. Here's your leads. [00:14:13] Jason: If somebody is going to be paid pure commission, which means they're just paid for basically closing deals, they should not have to go find potential clients. They should not have to be hunting for potential clients. They shouldn't be spending any time doing any of that stuff. They should just be taking appointments, somebody else scheduled for them and closing deals. [00:14:33] Then they're a closer. Everything that happens before that would be handled by a setter and the setter would be cold calling, following up, like all this stuff. Setting appointments. Setting appointments, rescheduling.  [00:14:46] Sarah: Making sure people show up. They don't show up. Right. Calling them again.  [00:14:49] Jason: Feeding the closer. [00:14:51] Feeding the closer. Then the closer can be peer commissioned and the setter would be paid a base, mostly a base, plus a small percentage for each like appointment they set or some sort of results. So they're motivated to get more results and they should be a little bit money motivated, right? Now, most people are going to hire a BDM and expect them to do both. [00:15:11] And if you're going to hire a BDM and expect them to do both, you need to pay them a base. I would recommend at least maybe 20 to 30 K, something like this of a base that covers their setting activities. And then they, the rest, they should be able to make somewhere annually about maybe six figures should be possible. [00:15:30] So work it backwards, but there should be a commission structure that if they're adding 10 to 20 doors a month, they should be able to make. Some sort of six figure sort of salary would be the goal. So figure out a commission on top of that base. Because what you're doing, if you say it's pure commission, you're expecting a closer who lives or dies by whether they hunt or kill and create some money, you're expecting them to starve for at least two months, usually. Because usually three. Because it takes about 90 days to build up a sales pipeline. So they're going to have to do networking and prospecting and outreach and they're working for free and. If they're starving for 90 days, they're just going to quit. [00:16:10] I've seen so many BDMs burn out and it sounds like this great model. "Well, I'll pay you basically nothing in the beginning." And you might get somebody to agree to do that, but they might be stupid if they're willing to do that. And then they're going to be like starving and not figuring it out. And then you don't give them a good system. [00:16:26] If you plug them in to DoorGrow, we can get them making a lot of money. We have an amazing system. Like we had a client in just 10 to 15 hours. We go from zero to a hundred doors in six months. And he didn't spend any money on ads and he was a solopreneur. He was all by himself. This is absolutely possible. [00:16:44] We can help BDMs crush it. We've helped some BDMs add two- three hundred dollars in a year. That's absolutely possible to do but they need to be able to dedicate their time to that and you are not going to get that kind of result if you just pay them a commission because they will only focus on the closing type of activities or the commission generating activities, and they won't do what the leading activities that actually generates the opportunities to close. [00:17:12] And so you're putting too much attention on the wrong thing. They need more attention. Most of the attention should be on the leading activities. Phone calls, outreach, networking that leads to this and then deals will happen. They don't even have to be super amazing at closing if they're doing enough leading activities And so we want to make sure we give them a base and then we give them an incentive to move those things forward.  [00:17:35] Sarah: Okay. Now with the base, this is the big one. "Well, how much is the base supposed to be Jason? I don't know?" [00:17:41] Jason: 20 or 30 K. Maybe  [00:17:42] Sarah: You need to find an amount that would be uncomfortable if that's all you made. It needs to be comfortable enough that if that's all they made, they're not going to be starving and eating out of a dumpster. [00:17:58] And it needs to be uncomfortable enough that if that's all they made, they wouldn't be happy and they would be hungry for more.  [00:18:06] Jason: They need to be hungry. They got to be motivated. It's financial compensation is all about motivation, right?  [00:18:13] Sarah: With a salesperson, when you lay out their commission structure and you let them know like, "Hey, this is your base and I'm giving you this base because of these reasons. I don't want you to be starving. I want you to be motivated. The real money, it's over here. This other piece, I'm going to give it to you because there's things like phone calls and settings and appointments and you know, all the stupid crap that you don't want to do, but that you will do because it leads to deals." [00:18:38] And they're like "yeah, I get that. But the real money is over here. So when you close deals, that's when you start to make money." And when you dangle the carrot in front of a great salesperson, they will jump off a freaking cliff to get it. The problem is if you just give them the carrot and you're like, here, have a 50, 000 base, have 100, 000 base, have a 200, 000 base. [00:19:03] They're like "Yeah. I don't need to work that hard. I mean, if I do nothing, I still make 50k." We just at the boardroom event, we had a client whose BDM has a 50, 000 base.  [00:19:13] Jason: And then he was wondering why they weren't super motivated.  [00:19:16] Sarah: She doesn't really, she closed like two doors a month. And I'm like, well, yeah, cause she's comfortable. [00:19:22] She's super comfortable there. So she's never going to be motivated to work harder and do more and stretch herself and go above and beyond. Because she doesn't have to, you gave it to her. I have to work for it. There's a difference. And the other thing is salespeople who they love the challenge. They don't want you to give it to them. [00:19:43] They don't want it. Like they'll tell you like, "Oh, I'll take 500, 000 a year for doing nothing." But they wouldn't really be fulfilled by that. They'll probably take it because they love money. I mean, who doesn't, but they wouldn't be fulfilled by it. Yeah. If you give them 500, 000 for doing nothing versus if they make 500, 000 because of the work that they did and because of their efforts, there's a big difference. [00:20:06] They're going to feel really proud of that and they're going to want that. So they're going to chase it. So you have to dangle the carrot and make it something that's interesting enough. You have to, you, and you have to set it up so that they have the ability to make at least six figures because that's what sales people want But don't just throw it to them.  [00:20:24] Jason: And to be clear No, bdm should be making five hundred thousand dollars.  [00:20:28] Sarah: That's not accurate at all. [00:20:30] Jason: There's really great bdm. Maybe if they're helping do some acquisition deals If they're adding 500 a year, maybe all right So but if your bdm can live comfortably without adding 10 doors a month, your commission structure is wrong. They should be minimum adding about 10 doors a month as a full time BDM minimum. [00:20:52] And they should need to do 10 doors a month in order to just reach comfort. And if they're really motivated, they'll do even more than that. They'll do even more than that because then it gets exciting, right? Then it's the game, right? It's the hunt. Okay. So we talked about compensation. [00:21:08] Is there any other challenges or mistakes we see people make compensation wise?  [00:21:13] Sarah: I think those are the big ones. I think let's though, before we wrap up, let's talk a little bit more about the recognition piece and then we'll close it out. Okay. Because people are like what do you mean recognition? [00:21:25] Like, "Hey, I see you." [00:21:26] Jason: So recognition is a process of just helping the team members be seen, especially in front of other team members for doing good things or accomplishing things. So the way that we do that in DoorGrow and in our operating system, DoorGrow OS. Maybe you've heard of like EOS or traction or some of these things. [00:21:43] DoorGrow OS is better. And what we do in DoorGrow OS to increase the amount of recognition is in every meeting we share wins. So if it's our weekly commitments meeting, we're sharing what wins did we have last week and everybody adds to the list. What did we do in our monthly goal setting? [00:22:03] We share wins for everything we did the previous month. Same thing with the quarter and annually, and it's pretty awesome. Like, we're building these lists and everybody feels great. And then even in our daily huddle meeting, which is like a 15 minute, 20 minute meeting we do every morning, I guess we do ours in the afternoon, but we do with our team. [00:22:21] We do Caught Being Awesome and we allow team members to share their wins or to highlight somebody else. And so our team are highly motivated because most of them are recognition motivated. So we're recognizing them. If we do give a bonus, like say for the holidays or something like that, we do it in a way that the focus is we wanted to recognize you because of what you've done for us this last year. So it's still about recognition and appreciation. And so that will get you team members that are incredibly loyal to you, that love being part of the team, that feel a sense of belonging, and that means a lot more to most of your team members than getting more dollars. [00:23:04] Is that good?  [00:23:04] Sarah: They want to feel important and they want to feel valued and they want to know that you care about what they're doing and especially in an industry like property management because it's tough. Yeah. Everybody has those like really awful days because let's be honest, sometimes owners or tenants or vendors and sometimes life just happens, right? [00:23:27] So it's tough and sometimes it's tough. All the time or it's tough for a while. This is not an easy industry. So when you've got this pressure all the time and this like annoyance, like, "Oh, that tenant's going to call me and yell at me again, or, Oh, like, Oh, I have to have this uncomfortable conversation and tell my client that we need a $15,000 sewer repair. [00:23:50] I don't want to do this." The it's the little things that will keep your team going and make sure that they understand like, "Hey. I know it's not the most glorious thing. I know it's always not super exciting, and it's not always super easy. However, what you're doing really makes a difference. It really is important and this is like the bigger mission and vision of the business and you contribute directly to that vision and what you're doing matters." [00:24:22] So that way it's like, Oh, you know, it's not this grind and this drain and we don't have a lot of churn on our own team and burnout and you know, bad team members that are like, "Oh, I hate my job." Right. Because that's super easy. It's easy and then you make it even harder. It's easy just by itself and then you make it harder because it's property management. [00:24:43] So it's super easy in property management to have that. So let's combat that. And just by recognizing them and saying like, "Hey, I saw you took care of that thing. Like, hey, oh my god, you got all the leases done. And hey," like, and it could be the littlest things. It's things that they do. Anyway, it doesn't matter. [00:25:00] They don't have to do anything that's like spectacular. "Oh my God. You like cleaned all the bathrooms today, Sally. Thank you. That was amazing. Like you didn't have to do that." It's little things and it's things that they're going to be doing anyway, but just let them know, "Hey, I see it. And I appreciate it." [00:25:16] Jason: All right. So the other thing I'll say about recognition is you might be thinking, well, salespeople and entrepreneurs, do they like recognition? The answer is yes. They like it too. We still like it. They like it too. So if you're giving them recognition that adds more fuel to the fire, right? And so you need a system like DoorGrow OS in which everybody gets recognized for their accomplishments and everyone will perform and behave better because they feel seen by everyone. [00:25:42] And that has value, right? Now one more point I want to make is you might get somebody, an assistant, you're like a VA, you're like they're amazing. I love them so much. They're so awesome. I don't want to lose them. And then you are like, because you're hardwired to be so money focused, you're like, I'm going to pay them a whole bunch more money. [00:26:02] I see this happen so often. Be very careful about just giving out raises prematurely. Be very careful about this because what I've seen over and over again, I've been in masterminds, multimillion dollar business owners, we're hanging out together and they're like, "Hey I just got this assistant. She was super amazing. So I gave her this big raise 'cause she's so awesome. And now she's showing up late. She's not like getting things done. She seems like entitled." This is what happens when you compensate people financially, instead of giving them recognition and doing it based on how you think instead of what they want, you then sabotage their efforts or they start to sabotage their efforts. [00:26:43] So don't start paying somebody more just because you like them, right? There needs to be a justifiable reason and they need to be able to justify that reason. And so they may need to come to you and be like, "Hey, here's why I deserve more compensation." And you're checking in with them regularly and saying, "Hey, how are things going?" [00:27:01] And if you have an open communication with your team members, they're going to tell you when they feel like it's time that they deserve some more money. And it's going to be really uncomfortable for them to do it if they don't like money, it's going to be so uncomfortable to have that conversation, but it's also uncomfortable for you to spend more money. [00:27:17] Team are the biggest expense. Your discomfort in giving somebody a raise should be equal to their discomfort in asking for it. It's my thought. And so they need to be reaching out. To some degree, and you may recognize somebody deserves more pay, you know, deep down they're being paid too little. [00:27:36] So then you can give them a raise, but be careful about handing this out.  [00:27:40] Sarah: My other little tip with raises is I worked in corporate for a bit and it was like every year, you know, you're going to get a raise and how much of a raise you get depend, depend on all your stupid numbers and metrics and all, you know, call time and all that stuff. [00:27:55] So you knew you were getting a raise though, like for sure, unless for some reason they're firing you, right? But other than that, you know, like, "Oh, my annual review is coming up. How much money am I going to make now?" And then they expect it. And then you don't really appreciate it because it's expected. And it's like normal now it's like, "Oh, well I'm getting a raise now. [00:28:13] Now I'm going to raise." And then. What also happens is, "well, I'm getting a raise," and sometimes people go, "Oh, well I deserve like this much." And then they don't get that. They get less. And then they're like mad about it. They're mad because they're making more money. It's not as much money as they wanted or as I expected. [00:28:30] So one of my big rules when it comes to raises is with raise comes responsibility. Don't just throw out more money. Like, "Hey, if you want to go from here to here, I'm happy to take you there. This is what that would look like. Are you in?  [00:28:44] Jason: Okay. One last thing. Titles. Titles are heavily connected to compensation. [00:28:49] So I dealt with this week. I talked to a property manager. They had like 20 doors or something and they hired a director of operations. No. You can't afford a director of operations. So the thing is, yeah, I said, "tell them they are an operations assistant in ecrow." And said, I gave you this inflated title. [00:29:06] You're an operations assistant. Maybe then eventually they could graduate operations manager. Maybe then be the, you know, maybe eventually. The director of operations, VP of operations, COO, but titles matter. So be very careful about handing out titles. Start everybody out as a something assistant or junior  [00:29:24] Sarah: property manager, junior assistant, property manager, or you can just have levels, property manager, one property manager, two property manager, three, like. [00:29:32] There's a lot of different ways you can do it. Be careful about titles. Yeah, be super careful about  [00:29:36] Jason: titles. Because they'll go look it up on salary. com and they'll be like, "Oh I deserve this. I'm director of property management. I guess I should be getting 150k or whatever, right?"  [00:29:46] Sarah: And also, 20 doors, fun little caveat. Be careful when you're reviewing resumes with titles for the same reason. Because titles they sound really impressive sometimes and they mean they could be made up They mean nothing when I got hired at an insurance job. They were like, oh we have to make your business card And I said, "okay," and they said "well, what do you want your title to be?" [00:30:05] And I said, "I pick my own title?" And they're like, "yeah, you can put whatever you want on there." And I said, "well, aren't I a sales rep?" And they're like, "yeah, but don't put sales rep." I'm like, "oh, okay. So what should I put?" They're like, "put like account manager or account executive or like something like that." [00:30:24] So I don't remember what we came up with, but. Came up with something that sounded like I was like, "Ooh, I'm a big deal." I was a sales rep. That's it. I sell things. That's it. But the title sounded a lot more impressive. And sometimes that can go to people's head just a bit. And keep in mind, money is connected to the title. [00:30:45] It always will be. So get on. And if you're like, "well, I don't know what to," Google will help you just get on. Well, I just had this conversation, I think two weeks ago with client. " Well, I don't want to hire like the COO of the company. I can't afford that." You're right. You can't. So. [00:31:00] What are they doing? Maybe they're the team leader. Maybe they're the office manager. Maybe they're an operations assistant. Like get on, find some kind of title, get on Google and say, what are other job titles for this thing? And it will tell you and pick one of those and avoid things like manager, juror, and like VP president or like, Senior account executive, things like that. [00:31:26] Because it. It will be startling if someone. Looks at their position and realizes. "Oh, I should be making 125 and I'm only paid 55. Huh? That's odd."  [00:31:38] Jason: All right, so wrap us up. Give us a call to action. [00:31:41] Sarah: Just If you feel like you're struggling with any of this and I know there's so many of you that are like, "oh man. Yeah, that's me." [00:31:48] I might have made some of these mistakes and that's okay because we all have we've done it to Go on doorgrow. com Book a call with us. We can help you with this stuff.  [00:31:56] Jason: This is what we do. Yeah, and if you made any of these mistakes, I guarantee there's a lot of others going on in the business you can't see right now. [00:32:03] We can help you get this cleaned up and help you make a lot more money, help you grow a lot faster. All right. All right until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:32:11] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:32:37] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Table of contentsNote: links take you to the corresponding section below; links to the original episode can be found there.* Laura Duffy solves housing, ethics, and more [00:01:16]* Arjun Panickssery solves books, hobbies, and blogging, but fails to solve the Sleeping Beauty problem because he's wrong on that one [00:10:47]* Nathan Barnard on how financial regulation can inform AI regulation [00:17:16]* Winston Oswald-Drummond on the tractability of reducing s-risk, ethics, and more [00:27:48]* Nathan Barnard (again!) on why general intelligence is basically fake [00:34:10]* Daniel Filan on why I'm wrong about ethics (+ Oppenheimer and what names mean in like a hardcore phil of language sense) [00:56:54]* Holly Elmore on AI pause, wild animal welfare, and some cool biology things I couldn't fully follow but maybe you can [01:04:00]* Max Alexander and I solve ethics, philosophy of mind, and cancel culture once and for all [01:24:43]* Sarah Woodhouse on discovering AI x-risk, Twitter, and more [01:30:56] * Pigeon Hour x Consistently Candid pod-crossover: I debate moral realism with Max Alexander and Sarah Hastings-Woodhouse [01:41:08]Intro [00:00:00]To wrap up the year of Pigeon Hour, the podcast, I put together some clips from each episode to create a best-of compilation. This was inspired by 80,000 Hours, a podcast that did the same with their episodes, and I thought it was pretty cool and tractable enough.It's important to note that the clips I chose range in length significantly. This does not represent the quality or amount of interesting content in the episode. Sometimes there was a natural place to break the episode into a five-minute chunk, and other times it wouldn't have made sense to take a five-minute chunk out of what really needed to be a 20-minute segment. I promise I'm not just saying that.So without further ado, please enjoy.#1: Laura Duffy solves housing, ethics, and more [00:01:16]In this first segment, Laura, Duffy, and I discuss the significance and interpretation of Aristotle's philosophical works in relation to modern ethics and virtue theory.AARON: Econ is like more interesting. I don't know. I don't even remember of all the things. I don't know, it seems like kind of cool. Philosophy. Probably would have majored in philosophy if signaling wasn't an issue. Actually, maybe I'm not sure if that's true. Okay. I didn't want to do the old stuff though, so I'm actually not sure. But if I could aristotle it's all wrong. Didn't you say you got a lot out of Nicomachi or however you pronounce that?LAURA: Nicomachian ethics guide to how you should live your life. About ethics as applied to your life because you can't be perfect. Utilitarians. There's no way to be that.AARON: But he wasn't even responding to utilitarianism. I'm sure it was a good work given the time, but like, there's like no other discipline in which we care. So people care so much about like, what people thought 2000 years ago because like the presumption, I think the justified presumption is that things have iterated and improved since then. And I think that's true. It's like not just a presumption.LAURA: Humans are still rather the same and what our needs are for living amongst each other in political society are kind of the same. I think America's founding is very influenced by what people thought 2000 years ago.AARON: Yeah, descriptively that's probably true. But I don't know, it seems like all the whole body of philosophers have they've already done the work of, like, compressing the good stuff. Like the entire academy since like, 1400 or whatever has like, compressed the good stuff and like, gotten rid of the bad stuff. Not in like a high fidelity way, but like a better than chance way. And so the stuff that remains if you just take the state of I don't know if you read the Oxford Handbook of whatever it is, like ethics or something, the takeaways you're going to get from that are just better than the takeaways you're going to get from a summary of the state of the knowledge in any prior year. At least. Unless something weird happened. And I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense.LAURA: I think we're talking about two different things, though. Okay. In terms of knowledge about logic or something or, I don't know, argumentation about trying to derive the correct moral theory or something, versus how should we think about our own lives. I don't see any reason as to why the framework of virtue theory is incorrect and just because it's old. There's many virtue theorists now who are like, oh yeah, they were really on to something and we need to adapt it for the times in which we live and the kind of societies we live in now. But it's still like there was a huge kernel of truth in at least the way of thinking that Aristotle put forth in terms of balancing the different virtues that you care about and trying to find. I think this is true. Right? Like take one virtue of his humor. You don't want to be on one extreme where you're just basically a meme your entire life. Everybody thinks you're funny, but that's just not very serious. But you don't want to be a boar and so you want to find somewhere in the middle where it's like you have a good sense of humor, but you can still function and be respected by other people.AARON: Yeah. Once again, I agree. Well, I don't agree with everything. I agree with a lot of what you just said. I think there was like two main points of either confusion or disagreement. And like, the first one is that I definitely think, no, Aristotle shouldn't be discounted or like his ideas or virtue ethics or anything like that shouldn't be discounted because they were canonical texts or something were written a long time ago. I guess it's just like a presumption that I have a pretty strong presumption that conditional on them being good, they would also be written about today. And so you don't actually need to go back to the founding texts and then in fact, you probably shouldn't because the good stuff will be explained better and not in weird it looks like weird terms. The terms are used differently and they're like translations from Aramaic or whatever. Probably not Aramaic, probably something else. And yeah, I'm not sure if you.LAURA: Agree with this because we have certain assumptions about what words like purpose mean now that we're probably a bit richer in the old conception of them like telos or happiness. Right. Udaimnia is much better concept and to read the original text and see how those different concepts work together is actually quite enriching compared to how do people use these words now. And it would take like I don't know, I think there just is a lot of value of looking at how these were originally conceived because popularizers of the works now or people who are seriously doing philosophy using these concepts. You just don't have the background knowledge that's necessary to understand them fully if you don't read the canonical text.AARON: Yeah, I think that would be true. If you are a native speaker. Do you know Greek? If you know Greek, this is like dumb because then you're just right.LAURA: I did take a quarter of it.AARON: Oh God. Oh my God. I don't know if that counts, but that's like more than anybody should ever take. No, I'm just kidding. That's very cool. No, because I was going to say if you're a native speaker of Greek and you have the connotations of the word eudaimonia and you were like living in the temper shuttle, I would say. Yeah, that's true actually. That's a lot of nuanced, connotation and context that definitely gets lost with translation. But once you take the jump of reading English translations of the texts, not you may as well but there's nothing super special. You're not getting any privileged knowledge from saying the word eudaimonia as opposed to just saying some other term as a reference to that concept or something. You're absorbing the connotation in the context via English, I guess, via the mind of literally the translators who have like.LAURA: Yeah, well see, I tried to learn virtue theory by any other route than reading Aristotle.AARON: Oh God.LAURA: I took a course specifically on Plato and Aristotle.AARON: Sorry, I'm not laughing at you. I'm just like the opposite type of philosophy person.LAURA: But keep going. Fair. But she had us read his physics before we read Nicomachi.AARON: Think he was wrong about all that.LAURA: Stuff, but it made you understand what he meant by his teleology theory so much better in a way that I could not get if I was reading some modern thing.AARON: I don't know, I feel like you probably could. No, sorry, that's not true. I don't think you could get what Aristotle the man truly believed as well via a modern text. But is that what you? Depends. If you're trying to be a scholar of Aristotle, maybe that's important. If you're trying to find the best or truest ethics and learn the lessons of how to live, that's like a different type of task. I don't think Aristotle the man should be all that privileged in that.LAURA: If all of the modern people who are talking about virtue theory are basically Aristotle, then I don't see the difference.AARON: Oh, yeah, I guess. Fair enough. And then I would say, like, oh, well, they should probably start. Is that in fact the state of the things in virtue theory? I don't even know.LAURA: I don't know either.#2 Arjun Panickssery solves books, hobbies, and blogging, but fails to solve the Sleeping Beauty problem because he's wrong on that one [00:10:47]All right, next, Arjun Panixery and I explore the effectiveness of reading books in retaining and incorporating knowledge, discussing the value of long form content and the impact of great literary works on understanding and shaping personal worldviews.ARJUN: Oh, you were in the book chat, though. The book rant group chat, right?AARON: Yeah, I think I might have just not read any of it. So do you want to fill me in on what I should have read?ARJUN: Yeah, it's group chat of a bunch of people where we were arguing about a bunch of claims related to books. One of them is that most people don't remember pretty much anything from books that they read, right? They read a book and then, like, a few months later, if you ask them about it, they'll just say one page's worth of information or maybe like, a few paragraphs. The other is that what is it exactly? It's that if you read a lot of books, it could be that you just incorporate the information that's important into your existing models and then just forget the information. So it's actually fine. Isn't this what you wrote in your blog post or whatever? I think that's why I added you to that.AARON: Oh, thank you. I'm sorry I'm such a bad group chat participant. Yeah, honestly, I wrote that a while ago. I don't fully remember exactly what it says, but at least one of the things that it said was and that I still basically stand by, is that it's basically just like it's increasing the salience of a set of ideas more so than just filling your brain with more facts. And I think this is probably true insofar as the facts support a set of common themes or ideas that are kind of like the intellectual core of it. It would be really hard. Okay, so this is not a book, but okay. I've talked about how much I love an 80,000 hours podcast, and I've listened to, I don't think every episode, but at least 100 of the episodes. And no, you're just, like, not going to definitely I've forgotten most of the actual almost all of the actual propositional pieces of information said, but you're just not going to convince me that it's completely not affecting either model of the world or stuff that I know or whatever. I mean, there are facts that I could list. I think maybe I should try.ARJUN: Sure.AARON: Yeah. So what's your take on book other long form?ARJUN: Oh, I don't know. I'm still quite confused or I think the impetus for the group chat's creation was actually Hanania's post where he wrote the case against most books or most was in parentheses or something. I mean, there's a lot of things going on in that post. He just goes off against a bunch of different categories of books that are sort of not closely related. Like, he goes off against great. I mean, this is not the exact take he gives, but it's something like the books that are considered great are considered great literature for some sort of contingent reason, not because they're the best at getting you information that you want.AARON: This is, like, another topic. But I'm, like, anti great books. In fact, I'm anti great usually just means old and famous. So insofar as that's what we mean by I'm like, I think this is a bad thing, or, like, I don't know, aristotle is basically wrong about everything and stuff like that.ARJUN: Right, yeah. Wait, we could return to this. I guess this could also be divided into its component categories. He spends more time, though, I think, attacking a certain kind of nonfiction book that he describes as the kind of book that somebody pitches to a publisher and basically expands a single essay's worth of content into with a bunch of anecdotes and stuff. He's like, most of these books are just not very useful to read, I guess. I agree with that.AARON: Yeah. Is there one that comes to mind as, like, an? Mean, I think of Malcolm Gladwell as, like, the kind of I haven't actually read any of his stuff in a while, but I did, I think, when I started reading nonfiction or with any sort of intent, I read. A bunch of his stuff or whatever and vaguely remember that this is basically what he like for better or.ARJUN: Um yeah, I guess so. But he's almost, like, trying to do it on purpose. This is the experience that you're getting by reading a Malcolm Gladwell book. It's like talib. Right? It's just him just ranting. I'm thinking, I guess, of books that are about something. So, like, if you have a book that's know negotiation or something, it'll be filled with a bunch of anecdotes that are of dubious usefulness. Or if you get a book that's just about some sort of topic, there'll be historical trivia that's irrelevant. Maybe I can think of an example.AARON: Yeah. So the last thing I tried to read, maybe I am but haven't in a couple of weeks or whatever, is like, the Derek Parfit biography. And part of this is motivated because I don't even like biographies in general for some reason, I don't know. But I don't know. He's, like, an important guy. Some of the anecdotes that I heard were shockingly close to home for me, or not close to home, but close to my brain or something. So I was like, okay, maybe I'll see if this guy's like the smarter version of Aaron Bergman. And it's not totally true.ARJUN: Sure, I haven't read the book, but I saw tweet threads about it, as one does, and I saw things that are obviously false. Right. It's the claims that he read, like, a certain number of pages while brushing his teeth. That's, like, anatomically impossible or whatever. Did you get to that part? Or I assumed no, I also saw.AARON: That tweet and this is not something that I do, but I don't know if it's anatomically impossible. Yeah, it takes a little bit of effort to figure out how to do that, I guess. I don't think that's necessarily false or whatever, but this is probably not the most important.ARJUN: Maybe it takes long time to brush his teeth.#3: Nathan Barnard on how financial regulation can inform AI regulation [00:17:16]In this next segment, Nathan Barnard and I dive into the complexities of AI regulation, including potential challenges and outcomes of governing AI in relation to economic growth and existential security. And we compare it to banking regulation as well.AARON: Yeah, I don't know. I just get gloomy for, I think justified reasons when people talk about, oh yeah, here's the nine step process that has to take place and then maybe there's like a 20% chance that we'll be able to regulate AI effectively. I'm being facetious or exaggerating, something like that, but not by a gigantic amount.NATHAN: I think this is pretty radically different to my mainline expectation.AARON: What's your mainline expectation?NATHAN: I suppose I expect like AI to come with an increasing importance past economy and to come up to really like a very large fraction of the economy before really crazy stuff starts happening and this world is going very anonymous. Anonymous, anonymous, anonymous. I know the word is it'd be very unusual if this extremely large sector economy which was impacted like a very large number of people's lives remains like broadly unregulated.AARON: It'll be regulated, but just maybe in a stupid way.NATHAN: Sure, yes, maybe in a stupid way. I suppose critically, do you expect the stupid way to be like too conservative or too like the specific question of AI accenture it's basically too conservative or too lenient or I just won't be able to interact with this.AARON: I guess generally too lenient, but also mostly on a different axis where just like I don't actually know enough. I don't feel like I've read learned about various governance proposals to have a good object level take on this. But my broad prior is that there are just a lot of ways to for anything. There's a lot of ways to regulate something poorly. And the reason insofar as anything isn't regulated poorly it's because of a lot of trial and error.NATHAN: Maybe.AARON: I mean, there's probably exceptions, right? I don't know. Tax Americana is like maybe we didn't just kept winning wars starting with World War II. I guess just like maybe like a counterexample or something like that.NATHAN: Yeah, I think I still mostly disagree with this. Oh, cool. Yeah. I suppose I see a much like broader spectrum between bad regulation and good regulation. I agree it's like very small amount. The space of optimal regulation is very small. But I think we have to hit that space for regulation to be helpful. Especially in this especially if you consider that if you sort of buy the AI extension safety risk then the downsides of it's not this quite fine balancing act between too much whether consumer protection and siphoning competition and cycling innovation too much. It's like trying to end this quite specific, very bad outcome which is maybe much worse than going somewhat slowering economic growth, at least somewhat particularly if we think we're going to get something. This is very explosive rates for economic growth really quite soon. And the cost of slowing down economic growth by weather even by quite a large percentage, very small compared to the cost of sort of an accidental catastrophe. I sort of think of Sony iconic growth as the main cost of main way regulation goes wrong currently.AARON: I think in an actual sense that is correct. There's the question of like okay, Congress in the states like it's better than nothing. I'm glad it's not anarchy in terms of like I'm glad we have a legislature.NATHAN: I'm also glad the United States.AARON: How reasons responsive is Congress? I don't think reasons responsive enough to make it so that the first big law that gets passed insofar as there is one or if there is one is on the pareto frontier trading off between economic growth and existential security. It's going to be way inside of that production frontier or whatever. It's going to suck on every action, maybe not every act but at least like some relevant actions.NATHAN: Yeah that doesn't seem like obviously true to me. I think Dodge Frank was quite a good law.AARON: That came after 2008, right?NATHAN: Yeah correct. Yeah there you go. No, I agree. I'm not especially confident about doing regulation before there's some quite bad before there's a quite bad warning shot and yes, if we're in world where we have no warning shots and we're just like blindsided by everyone getting turned into everyone getting stripped their Athens within 3 seconds, this is not good. Both in law we do have one of those shots and I think Glass Seagull is good law. Not good law is a technical term. I think Glass Steagall was a good piece of legislation. I think DoD Frank was a good piece of legislation. I think the 2008 Seamless Bill was good piece of legislation. I think the Troubled Assets Relief Program is a good piece of piece of legislation.AARON: I recognize these terms and I know some of them and others I do not know the contents of.NATHAN: Yeah so Glass Eagle was the financial regulation passed in 1933 after Great Depression. The Tropical Asset Relief Program was passed in I think 2008, moved 2009 to help recapitalize banks. Dodge Frank was the sort of landmark post financial cris piece of legislation passed in 2011. I think these are all good pieces of legislation now. I think like financial regulation is probably unusually good amongst US legislation. This is like a quite weak take, I guess. It's unusually.AARON: So. I don't actually know the pre depression financial history at all but I feel like the more relevant comparison to the 21st century era is what was the regulatory regime in 1925 or something? I just don't know.NATHAN: Yeah, I know a bit. I haven't read this stuff especially deeply and so I don't want to don't want to be so overcompensant here but sort of the core pieces which were sort of important for the sort of the Great Depression going very badly was yeah, no distinction between commercial banks and investment banks. Yes, such a bank could take much riskier. Much riskier. Things with like custom deposits than they could from 1933 until the Peel Glass Eagle. And combine that with no deposit insurance and if you sort of have the combination of banks being able to do quite risky things with depositors money and no deposit insurance, this is quite dangerously known. And glassy repeal.AARON: I'm an expert in the sense that I have the Wikipedia page up. Well, yeah, there was a bunch of things. Basically. There's the first bank of the United States. There's the second bank of the United States. There's the free banking era. There was the era of national banks. Yada, yada, yada. It looks like 19. Seven was there was some panic. I vaguely remember this from like, AP US history, like seven years ago or.NATHAN: Yes, I suppose in short, I sort of agree that the record of sort of non post Cris legislation is like, not very good, but I think record of post Cris legislation really, at least in the financial sector, really is quite good. I'm sure lots of people disagree with this, but this is my take.#4 Winston Oswald-Drummond on the tractability of reducing s-risk, ethics, and more [00:27:48]Up next, Winston Oswald Drummond and I talk about the effectiveness and impact of donating to various research organizations, such as suffering-focused S-risk organizations. We discuss tractability, expected value, and essentially where we should give our money.AARON: Okay, nice. Yeah. Where to go from here? I feel like largely we're on the same page, I feel like.WINSTON: Yeah. Is your disagreement mostly tractability? Then? Maybe we should get into the disagreement.AARON: Yeah. I don't even know if I've specified, but insofar as I have one, yes, it's trapped ability. This is the reason why I haven't donated very much to anywhere for money reasons. But insofar as I have, I have not donated to Clrcrs because I don't see a theory of change that connects the research currently being done to actually reducing s risks. And I feel like there must be something because there's a lot of extremely smart people at both of these orgs or whatever, and clearly they thought about this and maybe the answer is it's very general and the outcome is just so big in magnitude that anything kind.WINSTON: Of that is part of it, I think. Yeah, part of it is like an expected value thing and also it's just very neglected. So it's like you want some people working on this, I think, at least. Even if it's unlikely to work. Yeah, even that might be underselling it, though. I mean, I do think there's people at CRS and Clr, like talking to people at AI labs and some people in politics and these types of things. And hopefully the research is a way to know what to try to get done at these places. You want to have some concrete recommendations and I think obviously people have to also be willing to listen to you, but I think there is some work being done on that and research is partially just like a community building thing as well. It's a credible signal that you were smart and have thought about this, and so it gives people reason to listen to you and maybe that mostly pays off later on in the future.AARON: Yeah, that all sounds like reasonable. And I guess one thing is that I just don't there's definitely things I mean, first of all, I haven't really stayed up to date on what's going on, so I haven't even done I've done zero research for this podcast episode, for example. Very responsible and insofar as I've know things about these. Orgs. It's just based on what's on their website at some given time. So insofar as there's outreach going on, not like behind the scenes, but just not in a super public way, or I guess you could call that behind the scenes. I just don't have reason to, I guess, know about that. And I guess, yeah, I'm pretty comfortable. I don't even know if this is considered biting a bullet for the crowd that will be listening to this, if that's anybody but with just like yeah, saying a very small change for a very large magnitude, just, like, checks out. You can just do expected value reasoning and that's basically correct, like a correct way of thinking about ethics. But even I don't know how much you know specifically or, like, how much you're allowed want to reveal, but if there was a particular alignment agenda that I guess you in a broad sense, like the suffering focused research community thought was particularly promising and relative to other tractable, I guess, generic alignment recommendations. And you were doing research on that and trying to push that into the alignment mainstream, which is not very mainstream. And then with the hope that that jumps into the AI mainstream. Even if that's kind of a long chain of events. I think I would be a lot more enthusiastic about I don't know that type of agenda, because it feels like there's like a particular story you're telling where it cashes out in the end. You know what I mean?WINSTON: Yeah, I'm not the expert on this stuff, but I do think you just mean I think there's some things about influencing alignment and powerful AI for sure. Maybe not like a full on, like, this is our alignment proposal and it also handles Sris. But some things we could ask AI labs that are already building, like AGI, we could say, can you also implement these sort of, like, safeguards so if you failed alignment, you fail sort of gracefully and don't cause lots of suffering.AARON: Right?WINSTON: Yeah. Or maybe there are other things too, which also seem potentially more tractable. Even if you solve alignment in some sense, like aligning with whatever the human operator tells the AI to do, then you can also get the issue that malevolent actors can take control of the AI and then what they want also causes lots of suffering that type of alignment wouldn't. Yeah, and I guess I tend to be somewhat skeptical of coherent extrapolated volition and things like this, where the idea is sort of like it'll just figure out our values and do the right thing. So, yeah, there's some ways to push on this without having a full alignment plan, but I'm not sure if that counts as what you were saying.AARON: No, I guess it does. Yeah, it sounds like it does. And it could be that I'm just kind of mistaken about the degree to which that type of research and outreach is going on. That sounds like it's at least partially true.#5: Nathan Barnard (again!) on why general intelligence is basically fake [00:34:10]Up next, Nathan Barnard is back for his second episode. And we talked about the nature of general intelligence, its relationship with language and the implications of specialized brain functions on the understanding of human cognitive abilities.NATHAN: Yes. This like symbolic like symbolic, symbolic reasoning stuff. Yeah. So I think if I was, like, making the if I was, like, making the case for general intelligence being real, I wouldn't have symbolic reasoning, but I would have language stuff. I'd have this hierarchical structure thing, which.AARON: I would probably so I think of at least most uses of language and central examples as a type of symbolic reasoning because words mean things. They're like yeah. Pointers to objects or something like that.NATHAN: Yeah, I think it's like, pretty confidence isn't where this isn't a good enough description of general intelligence. So, for instance so if you bit in your brain called, I'm using a checklist, I don't fuck this up vernacular, I'm not making this cool. Lots of connects to use words like pointers as these arbitrary signs happens mostly in this area of the brain called Berkeley's area. But very famously, you can have Berkeley's epaxics who lose the ability to do language comprehension and use the ability to consistently use words as pointers, as signs to point to things, but still have perfect good spatial reasoning abilities. And so, conversely, people with brokers of fascia who fuck up, who have the broker's reason their brain fucks up will not be able to form fluent sentences and have some problems like unsigned syntax, and they'll still be able to have very good spatial reasoning. It could still, for instance, be like, good engineers. Would you like many problems which, like, cost engineering?AARON: Yeah, I totally buy that. I don't think language is the central thing. I think it's like an outgrowth of, like I don't know, there's like a simplified model I could make, which is like it's like an outgrowth of whatever general intelligence really is. But whatever the best spatial or graphical model is, I don't think language is cognition.NATHAN: Yes, this is a really big debate in psycholinguistics as to whether language is like an outgrowth of other abilities like the brain has, whether language whether there's very specialized language modules. Yeah, this is just like a very live debate in psycholinguistics moments. I actually do lean towards the reason I've been talking about this actually just going to explain this hierarchical structure thing? Yeah, I keep talking about it. So one theory for how you can comprehend new sentences, like, the dominant theory in linguistics, how you can comprehend new sentences, um, is you break them up into, like you break them up into, like, chunks, and you form these chunks together in this, like, tree structure. So something like, if you hear, like, a totally novel sentence like the pit bull mastiff flopped around deliciously or something, you can comprehend what the sentence means despite the fact you've never heard it. Theory behind this is you saw yes, this can be broken up into this tree structure, where the different, like, ah, like like bits of the sentence. So, like like the mastiff would be like, one bit, and then you have, like, another bit, which is like, the mastiff I can't remember I said rolled around, so that'd be like, another bit, and then you'd have connectors to our heart.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: So the massive rolling around one theory of one of the sort of distinctive things that humans have disabilities is like, this quite general ability to break things up into these these tree structures. This is controversial within psycholinguistics, but it's broadly an area which I broadly buy it because we do see harms to other areas of intelligence. You get much worse at, like, Ravens Progressive Matrices, for instance, when you have, like, an injury to brokers area, but, like, not worse at, like, tests like tests of space, of, like, spatial reasoning, for instance.AARON: So what is like, is there, like, a main alternative to, like, how humans.NATHAN: Understand language as far as this specificity of how we pass completely novel sentences, as far as where this is just like this is just like the the academic consensus. Okay.AARON: I mean, it sounds totally like right? I don't know.NATHAN: Yeah. But yeah, I suppose going back to saying, how far is language like an outgrowth of general intelligence? An outgrowth like general intelligence versus having much more specialized language modules? Yeah, I lean towards the latter, despite yeah, I still don't want to give too strong of a personal opinion here because I'm not a linguistic this is a podcast.AARON: You're allowed to give takes. No one's going to say this is like the academic we want takes.NATHAN: We want takes. Well, gone to my head is.AARON: I.NATHAN: Think language is not growth of other abilities. I think the main justification for this, I think, is that the loss of other abilities we see when you have damage to broker's area and verca's area.AARON: Okay, cool. So I think we basically agree on that. And also, I guess one thing to highlight is I think outgrowth can mean a couple of different things. I definitely think it's plausible. I haven't read about this. I think I did at some point, but not in a while. But outgrowth could mean temporarily or whatever. I think I'm kind of inclined to think it's not that straightforward. You could have coevolution where language per se encourages both its own development and the development of some general underlying trait or something.NATHAN: Yeah. Which seems likely.AARON: Okay, cool. So why don't humans have general intelligence?NATHAN: Right. Yeah. As I was sort of talking about previously.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: I think I think I'd like to use go back to like a high level like a high level argument is there appears to be very surprised, like, much higher levels of functional specialization in brains than you expect. You can lose much more specific abilities than you expect to be able to lose. You can lose specifically the ability a famous example is like facebindness, actually. You probably lose the ability to specifically recognize things which you're, like, an expert in.AARON: Who does it or who loses this ability.NATHAN: If you've damaged your fuse inform area, you'll lose the ability to recognize faces, but nothing else.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: And there's this general pattern that your brain is much more you can lose much more specific abilities than you expect. So, for instance, if you sort of have damage to your ventral, medial, prefrontal cortex, you can say the reasoning for why you shouldn't compulsively gamble but still compulsively gamble.AARON: For instance okay, I understand this not gambling per se, but like executive function stuff at a visceral level. Okay, keep going.NATHAN: Yeah. Some other nice examples of this. I think memory is quite intuitive. So there's like, a very famous patient called patient HM who had his hippocampus removed and so as a result, lost all declarative memory. So all memory of specific facts and things which happened in his life. He just couldn't remember any of these things, but still perfectly functioning otherwise. I think at a really high level, I think this functional specialization is probably the strongest piece of evidence against the general intelligence hypothesis. I think fundamentally, general intelligence hypothesis implies that, like, if you, like yeah, if you was, like, harm a piece of your brain, if you have some brain injury, you might like generically get worse at tasks you like, generically get worse at, like at like all task groups use general intelligence. But I think suggesting people, including general intelligence, like the ability to write, the ability to speak, maybe not speak, the ability to do math, you do have.AARON: This it's just not as easy to analyze in a Cogsy paper which IQ or whatever. So there is something where if somebody has a particular cubic centimeter of their brain taken out, that's really excellent evidence about what that cubic centimeter does or whatever, but that non spatial modification is just harder to study and analyze. I guess we'll give people drugs, right? Suppose that set aside the psychometric stuff. But suppose that general intelligence is mostly a thing or whatever and you actually can ratchet it up and down. This is probably just true, right? You can probably give somebody different doses of, like, various drugs. I don't know, like laughing gas, like like, yeah, like probably, probably weed. Like I don't know.NATHAN: So I think this just probably isn't true. Your working memory corrects quite strongly with G and having better working memory generic can make you much better at lots of tasks if you have like.AARON: Yeah.NATHAN: Sorry, but this is just like a specific ability. It's like just specifically your working memory, which is improved if you go memory to a drugs. Improved working memory. I think it's like a few things like memory attention, maybe something like decision making, which are all like extremely useful abilities and improve how well other cognitive abilities work. But they're all separate things. If you improved your attention abilities, your working memory, but you sort of had some brain injury, which sort of meant you sort of had lost ability to pass syntax, you would not get better at passing syntax. And you can also use things separately. You can also improve attention and improve working memory separately, which just it's not just this one dial which you can turn up.AARON: There's good reason to expect that we can't turn it up because evolution is already sort of like maximizing, given the relevant constraints. Right. So you would need to be looking just like injuries. Maybe there are studies where they try to increase people's, they try to add a cubic centimeter to someone's brain, but normally it's like the opposite. You start from some high baseline and then see what faculties you lose. Just to clarify, I guess.NATHAN: Yeah, sorry, I think I've lost the you still think there probably is some general intelligence ability to turn up?AARON: Honestly, I think I haven't thought about this nearly as much as you. I kind of don't know what I think at some level. If I could just write down all of the different components and there are like 74 of them and what I think of a general intelligence consists of does that make it I guess in some sense, yeah, that does make it less of an ontologically legit thing or something. I think I think the thing I want to get the motivating thing here is that with humans yet you can like we know humans range in IQ, and there's, like, setting aside a very tiny subset of people with severe brain injuries or development disorders or whatever. Almost everybody has some sort of symbolic reasoning that they can do to some degree. Whereas the smartest maybe I'm wrong about this, but as far as I know, the smartest squirrel is not going to be able to have something semantically represent something else. And that's what I intuitively want to appeal to, you know what I mean?NATHAN: Yeah, I know what you're guessing at. So I think there's like two interesting things here. So I think one is, could a squirrel do this? I'm guessing a squirrel couldn't do this, but a dog can, or like a dog probably can. A chimpanzee definitely can.AARON: Do what?NATHAN: Chimpanzees can definitely learn to associate arbitrary signs, things in the world with arbitrary signs.AARON: Yes, but maybe I'm just adding on epicentercles here, but I feel like correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that maybe I'm just wrong about this, but I would assume that Chicken Tees cannot use that sign in a domain that is qualitatively different from the ones they've been in. Right. So, like, a dog will know that a certain sign means sit or whatever, but maybe that's not a good I.NATHAN: Don'T know think this is basically not true.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: And we sort of know this from teaching.AARON: Teaching.NATHAN: There's like a famously cocoa de guerrilla. Also a bonobo whose name I can't remember were taught sign language. And the thing they were consistently bad at was, like, putting together sentences they could learn quite large vocabularies learning to associate by large, I mean in the hundreds of words, in the low hundreds of words which they could consistently use consistently use correctly.AARON: What do you mean by, like, in what sense? What is bonobo using?NATHAN: A very famous and quite controversial example is like, coco gorilla was like, saw a swan outside and signed water bird. That's like, a controversial example. But other things, I think, which are controversial here is like, the syntax part of putting water and bird together is the controversial part, but it's not the controversial part that she could see a swan and call that a bird.AARON: Yeah, I mean, this is kind of just making me think, okay, maybe the threshold for D is just like at the chimp level or something. We are like or whatever the most like that. Sure. If a species really can generate from a prefix and a suffix or whatever, a concept that they hadn't learned before.NATHAN: Yeah, this is a controversial this is like a controversial example of that the addition to is the controversial part. Yeah, I suppose maybe brings back to why I think this matters is will there be this threshold which AIS cross such that their reasoning after this is qualitatively different to their reasoning previously? And this is like two things. One, like a much faster increase in AI capabilities and two, alignment techniques which worked on systems which didn't have g will no longer work. Systems which do have g. Brings back to why I think this actually matters. But I think if we're sort of accepting it, I think elephants probably also if you think that if we're saying, like, g is like a level of chimpanzees, chimpanzees just, like, don't don't look like quantitatively different to, like, don't look like that qualitatively different to, like, other animals. Now, lots of other animals live in similar complex social groups. Lots of other animals use tools.AARON: Yeah, sure. For one thing, I don't think there's not going to be a discontinuity in the same way that there wasn't a discontinuity at any point between humans evolution from the first prokaryotic cells or whatever are eukaryotic one of those two or both, I guess. My train of thought. Yes, I know it's controversial, but let's just suppose that the sign language thing was legit with the waterbird and that's not like a random one off fluke or something. Then maybe this is just some sort of weird vestigial evolutionary accident that actually isn't very beneficial for chimpanzees and they just stumbled their way into and then it just enabled them to it enables evolution to bootstrap Shimp genomes into human genomes. Because at some the smartest or whatever actually, I don't know. Honestly, I don't have a great grasp of evolutionary biology or evolution at all. But, yeah, it could just be not that helpful for chimps and helpful for an extremely smart chimp that looks kind of different or something like that.NATHAN: Yeah. So I suppose just like the other thing she's going on here, I don't want to keep banging on about this, but you can lose the language. You can lose linguistic ability. And it's just, like, happens this happens in stroke victims, for instance. It's not that rare. Just, like, lose linguistic ability, but still have all the other abilities which we sort of think of as like, general intelligence, which I think would be including the general intelligence, like, hypothesis.AARON: I agree that's, like, evidence against it. I just don't think it's very strong evidence, partially because I think there is a real school of thought that says that language is fundamental. Like, language drives thought. Language is, like, primary to thought or something. And I don't buy that. If you did buy that, I think this would be, like, more damning evidence.#6 Daniel Filan on why I'm wrong about ethics (+ Oppenheimer and what names mean in like a hardcore phil of language sense) [00:56:54][Note: I forgot to record an intro segment here. Sorry!]AARON: Yeah. Yes. I'm also anti scam. Right, thank you. Okay, so I think that thing that we were talking about last time we talked, which is like the thing I think we actually both know stuff about instead of just like, repeating New York Times articles is my nuanced ethics takes and why you think about talk about that and then we can just also branch off from there.DANIEL: Yeah, we can talk about that.AARON: Maybe see where that did. I luckily I have a split screen up, so I can pull up things. Maybe this is kind of like egotistical or something to center my particular view, but you've definitely given me some of the better pushback or whatever that I haven't gotten that much feedback of any kind, I guess, but it's still interesting to hear your take. So basically my ethical position or the thing that I think is true is that which I think is not the default view. I think most people think this is wrong is that total utilitarianism does not imply that for some amount of suffering that could be created there exists some other extremely large arbitrarily, large amount of happiness that could also be created which would morally justify the former. Basically.DANIEL: So you think that even under total utilitarianism there can be big amounts of suffering such that there's no way to morally tip the calculus. However much pleasure you can create, it's just not going to outweigh the fact that you inflicted that much suffering on some people.AARON: Yeah, and I'd highlight the word inflicted if something's already there and you can't do anything about it, that's kind of neither here nor there as it pertains to your actions or something. So it's really about you increasing, you creating suffering that wouldn't have otherwise been created. Yeah. It's also been a couple of months since I've thought about this in extreme detail, although I thought about it quite a bit. Yeah.DANIEL: Maybe I should say my contrary view, I guess, when you say that, I don't know, does total utilitarianism imply something or not? I'm like, well, presumably it depends on what we mean by total utilitarianism. Right. So setting that aside, I think that thesis is probably false. I think that yeah. You can offset great amounts of suffering with great amounts of pleasure, even for arbitrary amounts of suffering.AARON: Okay. I do think that position is like the much more common and even, I'd say default view. Do you agree with that? It's sort of like the implicit position of people who are of self described total utilitarians who haven't thought a ton about this particular question.DANIEL: Yeah, I think it's probably the implicit default. I think it's the implicit default in ethical theory or something. I think that in practice, when you're being a utilitarian, I don't know, normally, if you're trying to be a utilitarian and you see yourself inflicting a large amount of suffering, I don't know. I do think there's some instinct to be like, is there any way we can get around this?AARON: Yeah, for sure. And to be clear, I don't think this would look like a thought experiment. I think what it looks like in practice and also I will throw in caveats as I see necessary, but I think what it looks like in practice is like, spreading either wild animals or humans or even sentient digital life through the universe. That's in a non as risky way, but that's still just maybe like, say, making the earth, making multiple copies of humanity or something like that. That would be an example that's probably not like an example of what an example of creating suffering would be. For example, just creating another duplicate of earth. Okay.DANIEL: Anything that would be like so much suffering that we shouldn't even the pleasures of earth outweighs.AARON: Not necessarily, which is kind of a cop out. But my inclination is that if you include wild animals, the answer is yes, that creating another earth especially. Yeah, but I'm much more committed to some amount. It's like some amount than this particular time and place in human industry is like that or whatever.DANIEL: Okay, can I get a feel of some other concrete cases to see?AARON: Yeah.DANIEL: So one example that's on my mind is, like, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right? So the standard case for this is, like, yeah, what? A hundred OD thousand people died? Like, quite terrible, quite awful. And a lot of them died, I guess a lot of them were sort of some people were sort of instantly vaporized, but a lot of people died in extremely painful ways. But the countercase is like, well, the alternative to that would have been like, an incredibly grueling land invasion of Japan, where many more people would have died or know regardless of what the actual alternatives were. If you think about the atomic bombings, do you think that's like the kind of infliction of suffering where there's just not an offsetting amount of pleasure that could make that okay?AARON: My intuition is no, that it is offsettable, but I would also emphasize that given the actual historical contingencies, the alternative, the implicit case for the bombing includes reducing suffering elsewhere rather than merely creating happiness. There can definitely be two bad choices that you have to make or something. And my claim doesn't really pertain to that, at least not directly.#7: Holly Elmore on AI pause, wild animal welfare, and some cool biology things I couldn't fully follow but maybe you can [01:04:00]Up next, Holly Elmore and I discuss the complexities and implications of AI development and open sourcing. We talk about protests and ethical considerations around her, um, uh, campaign to pause the development of frontier AI systems until, until we can tell that they're safe.AARON: So what's the plan? Do you have a plan? You don't have to have a plan. I don't have plans very much.HOLLY: Well, right now I'm hopeful about the UK AI summit. Pause AI and I have planned a multi city protest on the 21 October to encourage the UK AI Safety Summit to focus on safety first and to have as a topic arranging a pause or that of negotiation. There's a lot of a little bit upsetting advertising for that thing that's like, we need to keep up capabilities too. And I just think that's really a secondary objective. And that's how I wanted to be focused on safety. So I'm hopeful about the level of global coordination that we're already seeing. It's going so much faster than we thought. Already the UN Secretary General has been talking about this and there have been meetings about this. It's happened so much faster at the beginning of this year. Nobody thought we could talk about nobody was thinking we'd be talking about this as a mainstream topic. And then actually governments have been very receptive anyway. So right now I'm focused on other than just influencing opinion, the targets I'm focused on, or things like encouraging these international like, I have a protest on Friday, my first protest that I'm leading and kind of nervous that's against Meta. It's at the Meta building in San Francisco about their sharing of model weights. They call it open source. It's like not exactly open source, but I'm probably not going to repeat that message because it's pretty complicated to explain. I really love the pause message because it's just so hard to misinterpret and it conveys pretty clearly what we want very quickly. And you don't have a lot of bandwidth and advocacy. You write a lot of materials for a protest, but mostly what people see is the title.AARON: That's interesting because I sort of have the opposite sense. I agree that in terms of how many informational bits you're conveying in a particular phrase, pause AI is simpler, but in some sense it's not nearly as obvious. At least maybe I'm more of a tech brain person or whatever. But why that is good, as opposed to don't give extremely powerful thing to the worst people in the world. That's like a longer everyone.HOLLY: Maybe I'm just weird. I've gotten the feedback from open source ML people is the number one thing is like, it's too late, there's already super powerful models. There's nothing you can do to stop us, which sounds so villainous, I don't know if that's what they mean. Well, actually the number one message is you're stupid, you're not an ML engineer. Which like, okay, number two is like, it's too late, there's nothing you can do. There's all of these other and Meta is not even the most powerful generator of models that it share of open source models. I was like, okay, fine. And I don't know, I don't think that protesting too much is really the best in these situations. I just mostly kind of let that lie. I could give my theory of change on this and why I'm focusing on Meta. Meta is a large company I'm hoping to have influence on. There is a Meta building in San Francisco near where yeah, Meta is the biggest company that is doing this and I think there should be a norm against model weight sharing. I was hoping it would be something that other employees of other labs would be comfortable attending and that is a policy that is not shared across the labs. Obviously the biggest labs don't do it. So OpenAI is called OpenAI but very quickly decided not to do that. Yeah, I kind of wanted to start in a way that made it more clear than pause AI. Does that anybody's welcome something? I thought a one off issue like this that a lot of people could agree and form a coalition around would be good. A lot of people think that this is like a lot of the open source ML people think know this is like a secret. What I'm saying is secretly an argument for tyranny. I just want centralization of power. I just think that there are elites that are better qualified to run everything. It was even suggested I didn't mention China. It even suggested that I was racist because I didn't think that foreign people could make better AIS than Meta.AARON: I'm grimacing here. The intellectual disagreeableness, if that's an appropriate term or something like that. Good on you for standing up to some pretty bad arguments.HOLLY: Yeah, it's not like that worth it. I'm lucky that I truly am curious about what people think about stuff like that. I just find it really interesting. I spent way too much time understanding the alt. Right. For instance, I'm kind of like sure I'm on list somewhere because of the forums I was on just because I was interested and it is something that serves me well with my adversaries. I've enjoyed some conversations with people where I kind of like because my position on all this is that look, I need to be convinced and the public needs to be convinced that this is safe before we go ahead. So I kind of like not having to be the smart person making the arguments. I kind of like being like, can you explain like I'm five. I still don't get it. How does this work?AARON: Yeah, no, I was thinking actually not long ago about open source. Like the phrase has such a positive connotation and in a lot of contexts it really is good. I don't know. I'm glad that random tech I don't know, things from 2004 or whatever, like the reddit source code is like all right, seems cool that it's open source. I don't actually know if that was how that right. But yeah, I feel like maybe even just breaking down what the positive connotation comes from and why it's in people's self. This is really what I was thinking about, is like, why is it in people's self interest to open source things that they made and that might break apart the allure or sort of ethical halo that it has around it? And I was thinking it probably has something to do with, oh, this is like how if you're a tech person who makes some cool product, you could try to put a gate around it by keeping it closed source and maybe trying to get intellectual property or something. But probably you're extremely talented already, or pretty wealthy. Definitely can be hired in the future. And if you're not wealthy yet I don't mean to put things in just materialist terms, but basically it could easily be just like in a yeah, I think I'll probably take that bit out because I didn't mean to put it in strictly like monetary terms, but basically it just seems like pretty plausibly in an arbitrary tech person's self interest, broadly construed to, in fact, open source their thing, which is totally fine and normal.HOLLY: I think that's like 99 it's like a way of showing magnanimity showing, but.AARON: I don't make this sound so like, I think 99.9% of human behavior is like this. I'm not saying it's like, oh, it's some secret, terrible self interested thing, but just making it more mechanistic. Okay, it's like it's like a status thing. It's like an advertising thing. It's like, okay, you're not really in need of direct economic rewards, or sort of makes sense to play the long game in some sense, and this is totally normal and fine, but at the end of the day, there's reasons why it makes sense, why it's in people's self interest to open source.HOLLY: Literally, the culture of open source has been able to bully people into, like, oh, it's immoral to keep it for yourself. You have to release those. So it's just, like, set the norms in a lot of ways, I'm not the bully. Sounds bad, but I mean, it's just like there is a lot of pressure. It looks bad if something is closed source.AARON: Yeah, it's kind of weird that Meta I don't know, does Meta really think it's in their I don't know. Most economic take on this would be like, oh, they somehow think it's in their shareholders interest to open source.HOLLY: There are a lot of speculations on why they're doing this. One is that? Yeah, their models aren't as good as the top labs, but if it's open source, then open source quote, unquote then people will integrate it llama Two into their apps. Or People Will Use It And Become I don't know, it's a little weird because I don't know why using llama Two commits you to using llama Three or something, but it just ways for their models to get in in places where if you just had to pay for their models too, people would go for better ones. That's one thing. Another is, yeah, I guess these are too speculative. I don't want to be seen repeating them since I'm about to do this purchase. But there's speculation that it's in best interests in various ways to do this. I think it's possible also that just like so what happened with the release of Llama One is they were going to allow approved people to download the weights, but then within four days somebody had leaked Llama One on four chan and then they just were like, well, whatever, we'll just release the weights. And then they released Llama Two with the weights from the beginning. And it's not like 100% clear that they intended to do full open source or what they call Open source. And I keep saying it's not open source because this is like a little bit of a tricky point to make. So I'm not emphasizing it too much. So they say that they're open source, but they're not. The algorithms are not open source. There are open source ML models that have everything open sourced and I don't think that that's good. I think that's worse. So I don't want to criticize them for that. But they're saying it's open source because there's all this goodwill associated with open source. But actually what they're doing is releasing the product for free or like trade secrets even you could say like things that should be trade secrets. And yeah, they're telling people how to make it themselves. So it's like a little bit of a they're intentionally using this label that has a lot of positive connotations but probably according to Open Source Initiative, which makes the open Source license, it should be called something else or there should just be like a new category for LLMs being but I don't want things to be more open. It could easily sound like a rebuke that it should be more open to make that point. But I also don't want to call it Open source because I think Open source software should probably does deserve a lot of its positive connotation, but they're not releasing the part, that the software part because that would cut into their business. I think it would be much worse. I think they shouldn't do it. But I also am not clear on this because the Open Source ML critics say that everyone does have access to the same data set as Llama Two. But I don't know. Llama Two had 7 billion tokens and that's more than GPT Four. And I don't understand all of the details here. It's possible that the tokenization process was different or something and that's why there were more. But Meta didn't say what was in the longitude data set and usually there's some description given of what's in the data set that led some people to speculate that maybe they're using private data. They do have access to a lot of private data that shouldn't be. It's not just like the common crawl backup of the Internet. Everybody's basing their training on that and then maybe some works of literature they're not supposed to. There's like a data set there that is in question, but metas is bigger than bigger than I think well, sorry, I don't have a list in front of me. I'm not going to get stuff wrong, but it's bigger than kind of similar models and I thought that they have access to extra stuff that's not public. And it seems like people are asking if maybe that's part of the training set. But yeah, the ML people would have or the open source ML people that I've been talking to would have believed that anybody who's decent can just access all of the training sets that they've all used.AARON: Aside, I tried to download in case I'm guessing, I don't know, it depends how many people listen to this. But in one sense, for a competent ML engineer, I'm sure open source really does mean that. But then there's people like me. I don't know. I knew a little bit of R, I think. I feel like I caught on the very last boat where I could know just barely enough programming to try to learn more, I guess. Coming out of college, I don't know, a couple of months ago, I tried to do the thing where you download Llama too, but I tried it all and now I just have like it didn't work. I have like a bunch of empty folders and I forget got some error message or whatever. Then I tried to train my own tried to train my own model on my MacBook. It just printed. That's like the only thing that a language model would do because that was like the most common token in the training set. So anyway, I'm just like, sorry, this is not important whatsoever.HOLLY: Yeah, I feel like torn about this because I used to be a genomicist and I used to do computational biology and it was not machine learning, but I used a highly parallel GPU cluster. And so I know some stuff about it and part of me wants to mess around with it, but part of me feels like I shouldn't get seduced by this. I am kind of worried that this has happened in the AI safety community. It's always been people who are interested in from the beginning, it was people who are interested in singularity and then realized there was this problem. And so it's always been like people really interested in tech and wanting to be close to it. And I think we've been really influenced by our direction, has been really influenced by wanting to be where the action is with AI development. And I don't know that that was right.AARON: Not personal, but I guess individual level I'm not super worried about people like you and me losing the plot by learning more about ML on their personal.HOLLY: You know what I mean? But it does just feel sort of like I guess, yeah, this is maybe more of like a confession than, like a point. But it does feel a little bit like it's hard for me to enjoy in good conscience, like, the cool stuff.AARON: Okay. Yeah.HOLLY: I just see people be so attached to this as their identity. They really don't want to go in a direction of not pursuing tech because this is kind of their whole thing. And what would they do if we weren't working toward AI? This is a big fear that people express to me with they don't say it in so many words usually, but they say things like, well, I don't want AI to never get built about a pause. Which, by the way, just to clear up, my assumption is that a pause would be unless society ends for some other reason, that a pause would eventually be lifted. It couldn't be forever. But some people are worried that if you stop the momentum now, people are just so luddite in their insides that we would just never pick it up again. Or something like that. And, yeah, there's some identity stuff that's been expressed. Again, not in so many words to me about who will we be if we're just sort of like activists instead of working on.AARON: Maybe one thing that we might actually disagree on. It's kind of important is whether so I think we both agree that Aipause is better than the status quo, at least broadly, whatever. I know that can mean different things, but yeah, maybe I'm not super convinced, actually, that if I could just, like what am I trying to say? Maybe at least right now, if I could just imagine the world where open eye and Anthropic had a couple more years to do stuff and nobody else did, that would be better. I kind of think that they are reasonably responsible actors. And so I don't k

IntroAt the gracious invitation of AI Safety Twitter-fluencer Sarah Hastings-Woodhouse, I appeared on the very first episode of her new podcast “Consistently Candid” to debate moral realism (or something kinda like that, I guess; see below) with fellow philosophy nerd and EA Twitter aficionado Max Alexander, alongside Sarah as moderator and judge of sorts.What I believeIn spite of the name of the episode and the best of my knowledge/understanding a few days ago, it turns out my stance may not be ~genuine~ moral realism. Here's my basic meta-ethical take:* Descriptive statements that concern objective relative goodness or badness (e.g., "it is objectively for Sam to donate $20 than to buy an expensive meal that costs $20 more than a similar, less fancy meal”) can be and sometimes are true; but* Genuinely normative claims like “Sam should (!) donate $20 and should not buy that fancy meal” are never objectively true.Of course the label per se doesn't really matter. But for a bunch of reasons it still seems wise to figure out which label really does work best.Some definitionsStanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Moral realists are those who think that, in these respects, things should be taken at face value—moral claims do purport to report facts and are true if they get the facts right. Moreover, they hold, at least some moral claims actually are true. That much is the common and more or less defining ground of moral realism (although some accounts of moral realism see it as involving additional commitments, say to the independence of the moral facts from human thought and practice, or to those facts being objective in some specified way).Wikipedia:The robust model of moral realism commits moral realists to three theses:* The semantic thesis: The primary semantic role of moral predicates (such as "right" and "wrong") is to refer to moral properties (such as rightness and wrongness), so that moral statements (such as "honesty is good" and "slavery is unjust") purport to represent moral facts, and express propositions that are true or false (or approximately true, largely false, and so on).* The alethic thesis: Some moral propositions are in fact true.* The metaphysical thesis: Moral propositions are true when actions and other objects of moral assessment have the relevant moral properties (so that the relevant moral facts obtain), where these facts and properties are robust: their metaphysical status, whatever it is, is not relevantly different from that of (certain types of) ordinary non-moral facts and properties.And to settle the matter, here's what some LLM have to say.My prompt:Suppose a person believes the following:1: Descriptive statements that concern objective relative goodness or badness (e.g., "it is objectively for Sam to donate $20 than to buy an expensive meal that costs $20 more than a similar, less fancy meal”) can be and sometimes are true; but 2: Genuinely normative claims like “Sam should donate $20 and should not buy that fancy meal” are never objectively true.Is this person best categorized as a moral realist?ChatGPTGiven these two beliefs, the person's stance doesn't align completely with traditional moral realism, which typically asserts that there are objective truths about both moral facts (like the goodness or badness of actions) and moral duties (what one should or should not do). However, it also doesn't fully align with moral anti-realism, since the person believes in some form of objective truth regarding moral value.One possible categorization for this stance could be a form of "value realism" combined with "normative anti-realism" or "normative subjectivism." This would mean that the person believes in objective truths about what is better or worse (value realism) but thinks that what one ought to do (normative claims) is not a matter of objective truth but perhaps of subjective judgment or societal conventions.This position is quite sophisticated and might be best understood as a hybrid or intermediate position in the landscape of moral philosophy, rather than fitting neatly into the category of moral realism or its standard alternatives.Great, so much for trying to fit things into nice little buckets.Claude, fortunately, is more definitive:No, the view described is not best categorized as moral realism. Here's why:Moral realism is the view that there are objective moral facts or truths. A moral realist believes that some moral claims, including normative claims about what one should or shouldn't do, can be objectively and mind-independently true.The view in the example accepts that there can be objective truths about relative degrees of goodness or badness (claim 1). However, it denies that there are objective normative truths about what one should or shouldn't do (claim 2). By rejecting that genuine normative 'should/shouldn't' claims can be objectively true, the view denies a key commitment of moral realism - namely that moral claims can state objective normative facts. At best it allows for objective evaluative facts about goodness/badness, not prescriptive facts about obligations.So this view would be more accurately categorized as a form of moral anti-realism like non-cognitivism or error theory. It does not qualify as moral realism because of its rejection of the existence of objective normative truths that could make strong normative claims justified or true. The commitment to objective evaluative facts alone does not sufficiently qualify the view as realist in the metaethical sense.In summary, the view accepts objective "good/bad" facts but denies objective "should/shouldn't" facts. This combination puts it at odds with core commitments of moral realism, so it is better seen as an anti-realist view.I'm gonna disagree with Claude here, at least in that the bolded claim above (objective normative facts are a key part of moral realism) just seems…wrong? Like all the definitions could replace the term “moral fact” or “moral claim” with “normative fact” and “normative claim” but they do not!So I really don't have a great answer to which label works best. One of two ~human level chatbots giving me a definitive-sounding “anti-realism” answer is too much evidence for me, whose only formal philosophy training is an undergrad minor, to rule that one out. There are also good arguments, I think, for the “realist label,” as well as for “neither” (i.e., ‘secret third thing'). In fact all of these seem pretty similar in terms of argument convincingness/correctness. So, in sum,

Note: I can't seem to edit or remove the “transcript” tab. I recommend you ignore that and just look at the much higher quality, slightly cleaned up one below. Most importantly, follow Sarah on Twitter! Summary (Written by chatGPT, as you can probably tell)In this episode of Pigeon Hour host Aaron delves deep into the world of AI safety with his guest, Sarah Woodhouse. Sarah shares her unexpected journey from fearing job automation to becoming a recognized voice on AI safety Twitter. Her story starts with a simple Google search that led her down a rabbit hole of existential dread and unexpected fame on social media. As she narrates her path from lurker to influencer, Sarah reflects on the quirky dynamics of the AI safety community, her own existential crisis, and the serendipitous tweet that resonated with thousands.Aaron and Sarah's conversation takes unexpected turns, discussing everything from the peculiarities of EA rationalists to the surprisingly serious topic of shrimp welfare. They also explore the nuances of AI doom probabilities, the social dynamics of tech Twitter, and Sarah's unexpected viral fame as a tween. This episode is a rollercoaster of insights and anecdotes, perfect for anyone interested in the intersection of technology, society, and the unpredictable journey of internet fame.Topics discussedDiscussion on AI Safety and Personal Journeys:* Aaron and Sarah discuss her path to AI safety, triggered by concerns about job automation and the realization that AI could potentially replace her work.* Sarah's deep dive into AI safety started with a simple Google search, leading her to Geoffrey Hinton's alarming statements, and eventually to a broader exploration without finding reassuring consensus.* Sarah's Twitter engagement began with lurking, later evolving into active participation and gaining an audience, especially after a relatable tweet thread about an existential crisis.* Aaron remarks on the rarity of people like Sarah, who follow the AI safety rabbit hole to its depths, considering its obvious implications for various industries.AI Safety and Public Perception:* Sarah discusses her surprise at discovering the AI safety conversation happening mostly in niche circles, often with a tongue-in-cheek attitude that could seem dismissive of the serious implications of AI risks.* The discussion touches on the paradox of AI safety: it's a critically important topic, yet it often remains confined within certain intellectual circles, leading to a lack of broader public engagement and awareness.Cultural Differences and Personal Interests:* The conversation shifts to cultural differences between the UK and the US, particularly in terms of sincerity and communication styles.* Personal interests, such as theater and musicals (like "Glee"), are also discussed, revealing Sarah's background and hobbies.Effective Altruism (EA) and Rationalist Communities:* Sarah points out certain quirks of the EA and rationalist communities, such as their penchant for detailed analysis, hedging statements, and the use of probabilities in discussions.* The debate around the use of "P(Doom)" (probability of doom) in AI safety discussions is critiqued, highlighting how it can be both a serious analytical tool and a potentially alienating jargon for outsiders.Shrimp Welfare and Ethical Considerations:* A detailed discussion on shrimp welfare as an ethical consideration in effective altruism unfolds, examining the moral implications and effectiveness of focusing on animal welfare at a large scale.* Aaron defends his position on prioritizing shrimp welfare in charitable giving, based on the principles of importance, tractability, and neglectedness.Personal Decision-Making in Charitable Giving:* Strategies for personal charitable giving are explored, including setting a donation cutoff point to balance moral obligations with personal needs and aspirations.TranscriptAARON: Whatever you want. Okay. Yeah, I feel like you said this on Twitter. The obvious thing is, how did you learn about AI safety? But maybe you've already covered that. That's boring. First of all, do you want to talk about that? Because we don't have to.SARAH: I don't mind talking about that.AARON: But it's sort of your call, so whatever. I don't know. Maybe briefly, and then we can branch out?SARAH: I have a preference for people asking me things and me answering them rather than me setting the agenda. So don't ever feel bad about just asking me stuff because I prefer that.AARON: Okay, cool. But also, it feels like the kind of thing where, of course, we have AI. Everyone already knows that this is just like the voice version of these four tweets or whatever. But regardless. Yes. So, Sarah, as Pigeon Hour guest, what was your path through life to AI safety Twitter?SARAH: Well, I realized that a chatbot could very easily do my job and that my employers either hadn't noticed this or they had noticed, but they were just being polite about it and they didn't want to fire me because they're too nice. And I was like, I should find out what AI development is going to be like over the next few years so that I know if I should go and get good at some other stuff.SARAH: I just had a little innocent Google. And then within a few clicks, I'd completely doom pilled myself. I was like, we're all going to die. I think I found Geoffrey Hinton because he was on the news at the time, because he just quit his job at Google. And he was there saying things that sounded very uncertain, very alarming. And I was like, well, he's probably the pessimist, but I'm sure that there are loads of optimists to counteract that because that's how it usually goes. You find a doomer and then you find a bunch of more moderate people, and then there's some consensus in the middle that everything's basically fine.SARAH: I was like, if I just keep looking, I'll find the consensus because it's there. I'm sure it's there. So I just kept looking and looking for it. I looked for it for weeks. I just didn't find it. And then I was like, nobody knows what's going on. This seems really concerning. So then I started lurking on Twitter, and then I got familiar with all the different accounts, whatever. And then at some point, I was like, I'm going to start contributing to this conversation, but I didn't think that anybody would talk back to me. And then at some point, they started talking back to me and I was like, this is kind of weird.SARAH: And then at some point, I was having an existential crisis and I had a couple of glasses of wine or something, and I just decided to type this big, long thread. And then I went to bed. I woke up the next morning slightly grouchy and hungover. I checked my phone and there were all these people messaging me and all these people replying to my thread being like, this is so relatable. This really resonated with me. And I was like, what is going on?AARON: You were there on Twitter before that thread right? I'm pretty sure I was following you.SARAH: I think, yeah, I was there before, but no one ever really gave me any attention prior to that. I think I had a couple of tweets that blew up before that, but not to the same extent. And then after that, I think I was like, okay, so now I have an audience. When I say an audience, like, obviously a small one, but more of an audience than I've ever had before in my life. And I was like, how far can I take this?SARAH: I was a bit like, people obviously started following me because I'm freFreaking out about AI, but if I post an outfit, what's going to happen? How far can I push this posting, these fit checks? I started posting random stuff about things that were completely unrelated. I was like, oh, people are kind of here for this, too. Okay, this is weird. So now I'm just milking it for all its worth, and I really don't know why anybody's listening to me. I'm basically very confused about the whole thing.AARON: I mean, I think it's kind of weird from your perspective, or it's weird in general because there aren't that many people who just do that extremely logical thing at the beginning. I don't know, maybe it's not obvious to people in every industry or whatever that AI is potentially a big deal, but there's lots of truckers or whatever. Maybe they're not the best demographic or the most conducive demographic, like, getting on Twitter or whatever, but there's other jobs that it would make sense to look into that. It's kind of weird to me that only you followed the rabbit hole all the way down.SARAH: I know! This is what I…Because it's not that hard to complete the circle. It probably took me like a day, it took me like an afternoon to get from, I'm worried about job automation to I should stop saving for retirement. It didn't take me that long. Do you know what I mean? No one ever looks. I literally don't get it. I was talking to some people. I was talking to one of my coworkers about this the other day, and I think I came up in conversation. She was like, yeah, I'm a bit worried about AI because I heard on the radio that taxi drivers might be out of a job. That's bad. And I was like, yeah, that is bad. But do you know what else? She was like, what are the AI companies up to that we don't know about? And I was like, I mean, you can go on their website. You can just go on their website and read about how they think that their technology is an extinction risk. It's not like they're hiding. It's literally just on there and no one ever looks. It's just crazy.AARON: Yeah. Honestly, I don't even know if I was in your situation, if I would have done that. It's like, in some sense, I am surprised. It's very few people maybe like one, but at another level, it's more rationality than most humans have or something. Yeah. You regret going down that rabbit hole?SARAH: Yeah, kind of. Although I'm enjoying the Twitter thing and it's kind of fun, and it turns out there's endless comedic material that you can get out of impending doom. The whole thing is quite funny. It's not funny, but you can make it funny if you try hard enough. But, yeah, what was I going to say? I think maybe I was more primed for doom pilling than your average person because I already knew what EA was and I already knew, you know what I mean. That stuff was on my radar.AARON: That's interesting.SARAH: I think had it not been on my radar, I don't think I would have followed the pipeline all the way.AARON: Yeah. I don't know what browser you use, but it would be. And you should definitely not only do this if you actually think it would be cool or whatever, but this could be in your browser history from that day and that would be hilarious. You could remove anything you didn't want to show, but if it's like Google Chrome, they package everything into sessions. It's one browsing session and it'll have like 10,000 links.SARAH: Yeah, I think for non-sketchy reasons, I delete my Google history more regularly than that. I don't think I'd be able to find that. But I can remember the day and I can remember my anxiety levels just going up and up somewhere between 01:00 p.m. and 07:00 p.m. And by the evening I'm like, oh, my God.AARON: Oh, damn, that's wild.SARAH: It was really stressful.AARON: Yeah, I guess props for, I don't know if props…Is the right word, I guess, impressed? I'm actually somewhat surprised to hear that you said you regret it. I mean, that sucks though, I guess. I'm sorry.SARAH: If you could unknow this, would you?AARON: No, because I think it's worth maybe selfishly, but not overall because. Okay, yeah, I think that would plausibly be the selfish thing to do. Actually. No, actually, hold on. No, I actually don't think that's true. I actually think there's enough an individual can do selfishly such that it makes sense. Even the emotional turmoil.SARAH: It would depend how much you thought that you were going to personally move the needle by knowing about it. I personally don't think that I'm going to be able to do very much. I was going to tip the scales. I wouldn't selfishly unknow it and sacrifice the world. But me being not particularly informed or intelligent and not having any power, I feel like if I forgot that AI was going to end the world, it would not make much difference.AARON: You know what I mean? I agree that it's like, yes, it is unlikely for either of us to tip the scales, but.SARAH: Maybe you can't.AARON: No, actually, in terms of, yeah, I'm probably somewhat more technically knowledgeable just based on what I know about you. Maybe I'm wrong.SARAH: No, you're definitely right.AARON: It's sort of just like a probabilities thing. I do think that ‘doom' - that word - is too simplified, often too simple to capture what people really care about. But if you just want to say doom versus no doom or whatever, AI doom versus no AI doom. Maybe there's like a one in 100,000 chance that one of us tips the scales. And that's important. Maybe even, like, one in 10,000. Probably not. Probably not.SARAH: One in 10,000. Wow.AARON: But that's what people do. People vote, even though this is old 80k material I'm regurgitating because they basically want to make the case for why even if you're not. Or in some article they had from a while ago, they made a case for why doing things that are unlikely to counterfactually matter can still be amazingly good. And the classic example, just voting if you're in a tight race, say, in a swing state in the United States, and it could go either way. Yeah. It might be pretty unlikely that you are the single swing vote, but it could be one in 100,000. And that's not crazy.SARAH: It doesn't take very much effort to vote, though.AARON: Yeah, sure. But I think the core justification, also, the stakes are proportionally higher here, so maybe that accounts for some. But, yes, you're absolutely right. Definitely different amounts of effort.SARAH: Putting in any effort to saving the world from AI. I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that I'm sacrificing.AARON: I don't even know if I like. No. Maybe it doesn't feel like a sacrifice. Maybe it isn't. But I do think there's, like, a lot. There's at least something to be. I don't know if this really checks out, but I would, like, bet that it does, which is that more reasonably, at least calibrated. I wanted to say reasonably well informed. But really what it is is, like, some level of being informed and, like, some level of knowing what you don't know or whatever, and more just like, normal. Sorry. I hope normal is not like a bat. I'm saying not like tech Bros, I guess so more like non tech bros. People who are not coded as tech bros. Talking about this on a public platform just seems actually, in fact, pretty good.SARAH: As long as we like, literally just people that aren't men as well. No offense.AARON: Oh, no, totally. Yeah.SARAH: Where are all the women? There's a few.AARON: There's a few that are super. I don't know, like, leaders in some sense, like Ajeya Cotra and Katja Grace. But I think the last EA survey was a third. Or I could be butchering this or whatever. And maybe even within that category, there's some variation. I don't think it's 2%.SARAH: Okay. All right. Yeah.AARON: Like 15 or 20% which is still pretty low.SARAH: No, but that's actually better than I would have thought, I think.AARON: Also, Twitter is, of all the social media platforms, especially mail. I don't really know.SARAH: Um.AARON: I don't like Instagram, I think.SARAH: I wonder, it would be interesting to see whether or not that's much, if it's become more male dominated since Elon Musk took.AARON: It's not a huge difference, but who knows?SARAH: I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea. We'll just be interesting to know.AARON: Okay. Wait. Also, there's no scheduled time. I'm very happy to keep talking or whatever, but as soon as you want to take a break or hop off, just like. Yeah.SARAH: Oh, yeah. I'm in no rush.AARON: Okay, well, I don't know. We've talked about the two obvious candidates. Do you have a take or something? Want to get out to the world? It's not about AI or obesity or just a story you want to share.SARAH: These are my two pet subjects. I don't know anything else.AARON: I don't believe you. I know you know about house plants.SARAH: I do. A secret, which you can't tell anyone, is that I actually only know about house plants that are hard to kill, and I'm actually not very good at taking care of them.AARON: Well, I'm glad it's house plants in that case, rather than pets. Whatever.SARAH: Yeah. I mean, I have killed some sea monkeys, too, but that was a long time ago.AARON: Yes. So did I, actually.SARAH: Did you? I feel like everyone has. Everyone's got a little sea monkey graveyard in their past.AARON: New cause area.SARAH: Are there more shrimp or more sea monkeys? That's the question.AARON: I don't even know what even. I mean, are they just plankton?SARAH: No, they're not plankton.AARON: I know what sea monkeys are.SARAH: There's definitely a lot of them because they're small and insignificant.AARON: Yeah, but I also think we don't. It depends if you're talking about in the world, which I guess probably like sea monkeys or farmed for food, which is basically like. I doubt these are farmed either for food or for anything.SARAH: Yeah, no, you're probably right.AARON: Or they probably are farmed a tiny bit for this niche little.SARAH: Or they're farmed to sell in aquariums for kids.AARON: Apparently. They are a kind of shrimp, but they were bred specifically to, I don't know, be tiny or something. I'm just skimming that, Wikipedia. Here.SARAH: Sea monkeys are tiny shrimp. That is crazy.AARON: Until we get answers, tell me your life story in whatever way you want. It doesn't have to be like. I mean, hopefully not. Don't straight up lie, but wherever you want to take that.SARAH: I'm not going to lie. I'm just trying to think of ways to make it spicier because it's so average. I don't know what to say about it.AARON: Well, it's probably not that average, right? I mean, it might be average among people you happen to know.SARAH: Do you have any more specific questions?AARON: Okay, no. Yeah, hold on. I have a meta point, which is like, I think the people who are they have a thing on the top of their mind, and if I give any sort of open ended question whatsoever, they'll take it there and immediately just start giving slinging hot takes. But thenOther people, I think, this category is very EA. People who aren't, especially my sister, they're like, “No, I have nothing to talk about. I don't believe that.” But they're not, I guess, as comfortable.SARAH: No, I mean, I have. Something needs to trigger them in me. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I need an in.AARON: Well, okay, here's one. Is there anything you're like, “Maybe I'll cut this. This is kind of, like narcissistic. I don't know. But is there anything you want or curious to ask?” This does sound kind of weird. I don't know. But we can cut it if need be.SARAH: What does the looking glass in your Twitter name mean? Because I've seen a bunch of people have this, and I actually don't know what it means, but I was like, no.AARON: People ask this. I respond to a tweet that's like, “What does that like?” At least, I don't know, once every month or two. Or know basically, like Spencer Greenberg. I don't know if you're familiar with him. He's like a sort of.SARAH: I know the know.AARON: He literally just tweeted, like a couple years ago. Put this in your bio to show that you really care about finding the truth or whatever and are interested in good faith conversations. Are you familiar with the scout mindset?SARAH: Yeah.AARON: Julia Galef. Yeah. That's basically, like the short version.SARAH: Okay.AARON: I'm like, yeah, all right. And there's at least three of us who have both a magnifying glass. Yeah. And a pause thing, which is like, my tightest knit online community I guess.SARAH: I think I've followed all the pause people now. I just searched the emoji on Twitter, and I just followed everyone. Now I can't find. And I also noticed when I was doing this, that some people, if they've suspended their account or they're taking time off, then they put a pause in their thing. So I was, like, looking, and I was like, oh, these are, like, AI people. But then they were just, like, in their bio, they were, like, not tweeting until X date. This is a suspended account. And I was like, I see we have a messaging problem here. Nice. I don't know how common that actually.AARON: Was. I'm glad. That was, like, a very straightforward question. Educated the masses. Max Alexander said Glee. Is that, like, the show? You can also keep asking me questions, but again, this is like.SARAH: Wait, what did he say? Is that it? Did he just say glee? No.AARON: Not even a question mark. Just the word glee.SARAH: Oh, right. He just wants me to go off about Glee.AARON: Okay. Go off about. Wait, what kind of Glee are we? Vaguely. This is like a show or a movie or something.SARAH: Oh, my God. Have you not seen it?AARON: No. I mean, I vaguely remember, I think, watching some TV, but maybe, like, twelve years ago or something. I don't know.SARAH: I think it stopped airing in, like, maybe 2015?AARON: 16. So go off about it. I don't know what I. Yeah, I.SARAH: Don't know what to say about this.AARON: Well, why does Max think you might have a take about Glee?SARAH: I mean, I don't have a take about. Just see the thing. See? No, not even, like, I am just transparently extremely lame. And I really like cheesy. I'm like. I'm like a musical theater kid. Not even ironically. I just like show tunes. And Glee is just a show about a glee club at a high school where they sing show tunes and there's, like, petty drama, and people burst into song in the hallways, and I just think it's just the most glorious thing on Earth. That's it. There are no hot takes.AARON: Okay, well, that's cool. I don't have a lot to say, unfortunately, but.SARAH: No, that's totally fine. I feel like this is not a spicy topic for us to discuss. It's just a good time.AARON: Yeah.SARAH: Wait.AARON: Okay. Yeah. So I do listen to Hamilton on Spotify.SARAH: Okay.AARON: Yeah, that's about it.SARAH: I like Hamilton. I've seen it three times. Oh.AARON: Live or ever. Wow. Cool. Yeah, no, that's okay. Well, what do people get right or wrong about theater kids?SARAH: Oh, I don't know. I think all the stereotypes are true.AARON: I mean, that's generally true, but usually, it's either over moralized, there's like a descriptive thing that's true, but it's over moralized, or it's just exaggerated.SARAH: I mean, to put this in more context, I used to be in choir. I went every Sunday for twelve years. And then every summer we do a little summer school and we go away and put on a production. So we do a musical or something. So I have been. What have I been? I was in Guys and Dolls. I think I was just in the chorus for that. I was the reverend in Anything Goes. But he does unfortunately get kidnapped in like the first five minutes. So he's not a big presence. Oh, I've been Tweedle dumb in Alice in Wonderland. I could go on, but right now as I'm saying this, I'm looking at my notice board and I have two playbills from when I went to Broadway in April where I saw Funny Girl and Hadestown.SARAH: I went to New York.AARON: Oh, cool. Oh yeah. We can talk about when you're moving to the United States. However.SARAH: I'm not going to do that. Okay.AARON: I know. I'm joking. I mean, I don't know.SARAH: I don't think I'm going to do that. I don't know. It just seems like you guys have got a lot going on over there. It seems like things aren't quite right with you guys. Things aren't quite right with us either.AARON: No, I totally get this. I think it would be cool. But also I completely relate to not wanting to. I've lived within 10 miles of one. Not even 10 miles, 8 miles in one location. Obviously gone outside of that. But my entire life.SARAH: You've just always lived in DC.AARON: Yeah, either in DC or. Sorry. But right now in Maryland, it's like right next to DC on the Metro or at Georgia University, which is in the trying to think would I move to the UK. Like I could imagine situations that would make me move to the UK. But it would still be annoying. Kind of.SARAH: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's like they're two very similar places, but there are all these little cultural things which I feel like kind of trip you up.AARON: I don't to. Do you want to say what?SARAH: Like I think people, I just like, I don't know. I don't have that much experience because I've only been to America twice. But people seem a lot more sincere in a way that you don't really get that. Like people are just never really being upfront. And in America, I just got the impression that people just have less of a veneer up, which is probably a good thing. But it's really hard to navigate if you're not used to it or something. I don't know how to describe that.AARON: Yeah, I've definitely heard this at least. And yeah, I think it's for better and for worse.SARAH: Yeah, I think it's generally a good thing.AARON: Yeah.SARAH: But it's like there's this layer of cynicism or irony or something that is removed and then when it's not there, it's just everything feels weak. I can't describe it.AARON: This is definitely, I think, also like an EA rationalist thing. I feel like I'm pretty far on the spectrum. Towards the end of surgical niceties are fine, but I don't know, don't obscure what you really think unless it's a really good reason to or something. But it can definitely come across as being rude.SARAH: Yeah. No, but I think it's actually a good rule of thumb to obscure what you. It's good to try not to obscure what you think most of the time, probably.Ably, I don't know, but I would love to go over temporarily for like six months or something and just hang out for a bit. I think that'd be fun. I don't know if I would go back to New York again. Maybe. I like the bagels there.AARON: I should have a place. Oh yeah. Remember, I think we talked at some point. We can cut this out if you like. Don't if either of us doesn't want it in. But we discussed, oh yeah, I should be having a place. You can. I emailed the landlord like an hour before this. Hopefully, probably more than 50%. That is still an offer. Yeah, probably not for all six months, but I don't know.SARAH: I would not come and sleep on your sofa for six months. That would be definitely impolite and very weird.AARON: Yeah. I mean, my roommates would probably grumble.SARAH: Yeah. They would be like.AARON: Although I don't know. Who knows? I wouldn't be shocked if people were actually like, whatever somebody asked for as a question. This is what he said. I might also be interested in hearing how different backgrounds. Wait, sorry. This is not good grammar. Let me try to parse this. Not having a super hardcore EA AI rationalist background shape how you think or how you view AI as rationality?SARAH: Oh, that's a good question. I think it's more happening the other way around, the more I hang around in these circles. You guys are impacting how I think.AARON: It's definitely true for me as well.SARAH: Seeping into my brain and my language as well. I've started talking differently. I don't know. That's a good question, though. Yeah. One thing that I will say is that there are certain things that I find irritating about the EA way of style of doing things. I think one specific, I don't know, the kind of like hand ring about everything. And I know that this is kind of the point, right? But it's kind of like, you know, when someone's like, I want to take a stance on something, but then whenever they want to take a stance on something, they feel the need to write like a 10,000 word blog post where they're thinking about the second and order and third and fifth order effects of this thing. And maybe this thing that seems good is actually bad for this really convoluted reason. That's just so annoying.AARON: Yeah.SARAH: Also understand that maybe that is a good thing to do sometimes, but it just seems like, I don't know how anyone ever gets anywhere. It seems like everyone must be paralyzed by indecision all the time because they just can't commit to ever actually just saying anything.AARON: I think this kind of thing is really good if you're trying to give away a billion dollars. Oh yes, I do want the billion dollar grantor to be thinking through second and third order effects of how they give away their billion dollars. But also, no, I am super. The words on the tip of my tongue, not overwhelmed but intimidated when I go on the EA forum because the posts, none of them are like normal, like five paragraph essays. Some of them are like, I think one of them I looked up for fun because I was going to make a meme about it and still will. Probably was like 30,000 words or something. And even the short form posts, which really gets me kind of not even annoyed. I don't know, maybe kind of annoyed is that the short form posts, which is sort of the EA forum version of Twitter, are way too high quality, way too intimidating. And so maybe I should just suck it up and post stuff anyway more often. It just feels weird. I totally agree.SARAH: I was also talking to someone recently about how I lurked on the EA forum and less wrong for months and months and I couldn't figure out the upvoting system and I was like, am I being stupid or why are there four buttons? And I was like, well, eventually I had to ask someone because I couldn't figure it out. And then he explained it to me and I was like, that is just so unnecessary. Like, just do it.AARON: No, I do know what you mean.SARAH: I just tI think it's annoying. It pisses me off. I just feel like sometimes you don't need to add more things. Sometimes less is good. Yeah, that's my hot take. Nice things.AARON: Yeah, that's interesting.SARAH: But actually, a thing that I like that EA's do is the constant hedging and caveatting. I do find it kind of adorable. I love that because it's like you're having to constantly acknowledge that you probably didn't quite articulate what you really meant and that you're not quite making contact with reality when you're talking. So you have to clarify that you probably were imprecise when you said this thing. It's unnecessary, but it's kind of amazing.AARON: No, it's definitely. I am super guilty of this because I'll give an example in a second. I think I've been basically trained to try pretty hard, even in normal conversation with anybody, to just never say anything that's literally wrong. Or at least if I do caveat it.AARON: I was driving home, me and my parents and I, unless visited, our grandparents were driving back, and we were driving back past a cruise ship that was in a harbor. And my mom, who was driving at the time, said, “Oh, Aaron, can you see if there's anyone on there?” And I immediately responded like, “Well, there's probably at least one person.” Obviously, that's not what she meant. But that was my technical best guess. It's like, yes, there probably are people on there, even though I couldn't see anybody on the decks or in the rooms. Yeah, there's probably a maintenance guy. Felt kind of bad.SARAH: You can't technically exclude that there are, in fact, no people.AARON: Then I corrected myself. But I guess I've been trained into giving that as my first reaction.SARAH: Yeah, I love that. I think it's a waste of words, but I find it delightful.AARON: It does go too far. People should be more confident. I wish that, at least sometimes, people would say, “Epistemic status: Want to bet?” or “I am definitely right about this.” Too rarely do we hear, "I'm actually pretty confident here.SARAH: Another thing is, people are too liberal with using probabilities. The meaning of saying there is an X percent chance of something happening is getting watered down by people constantly saying things like, “I would put 30% on this claim.” Obviously, there's no rigorous method that's gone into determining why it's 30 and not 35. That's a problem and people shouldn't do that. But I kind of love it.AARON: I can defend that. People are saying upfront, “This is my best guess. But there's no rigorous methodology.” People should take their word for that. In some parts of society, it's seen as implying that a numeric probability came from a rigorous model. But if you say, “This is my best guess, but it's not formed from anything,” people should take their word for that and not refuse to accept them at face value.SARAH: But why do you have to put a number on it?AARON: It depends on what you're talking about. Sometimes probabilities are relevant and if you don't use numbers, it's easy to misinterpret. People would say, “It seems quite likely,” but what does that mean? One person might think “quite reasonably likely” means 70%, the other person thinks it means 30%. Even though it's weird to use a single number, it's less confusing.SARAH: To be fair, I get that. I've disagreed with people about what the word “unlikely” means. Someone's pulled out a scale that the government uses, or intelligence services use to determine what “unlikely” means. But everyone interprets those words differently. I see what you're saying. But then again, I think people in AI safety talking about P Doom was making people take us less seriously, especially because people's probabilities are so vibey.AARON: Some people are, but I take Paul Cristiano's word seriously.SARAH: He's a 50/50 kind of guy.AARON: Yeah, I take that pretty seriously.Obviously, it's not as simple as him having a perfect understanding of the world, even after another 10,000 hours of investigation. But it's definitely not just vibes, either.SARAH: No, I came off wrong there. I don't mean that everyone's understanding is just vibes.AARON: Yeah.SARAH: If you were looking at it from the outside, it would be really difficult to distinguish between the ones that are vibes and the ones that are rigorous, unless you carefully parsed all of it and evaluated everyone's background, or looked at the model yourself. If you're one step removed, it looks like people just spitting out random, arbitrary numbers everywhere.AARON: Yeah. There's also the question of whether P doom is too weird or silly, or if it could be easily dismissed as such.SARAH: Exactly, the moment anyone unfamiliar with this discussion sees it, they're almost definitely going to dismiss it. They won't see it as something they need to engage with.AARON: That's a very fair point. Aside from the social aspect, it's also a large oversimplification. There's a spectrum of outcomes that we lump into doom and not doom. While this binary approach can be useful at times, it's probably overdone.SARAH: Yeah, because when some people say doom, they mean everyone dies, while others mean everyone dies plus everything is terrible. And no one specifies what they mean. It is silly. But, I also find it kind of funny and I kind of love it.AARON: I'm glad there's something like that. So it's not perfect. The more straightforward thing would be to say P existential risk from AI comes to pass. That's the long version, whatever.SARAH: If I was in charge, I would probably make people stop using PDOOm. I think it's better to say it the long way around. But obviously I'm not in charge. And I think it's funny and kind of cute, so I'll keep using it.AARON: Maybe I'm willing to go along and try to start a new norm. Not spend my whole life on it, but say, I think this is bad for X, Y, and Z reasons. I'll use this other phrase instead and clarify when people ask.SARAH: You're going to need Twitter premium because you're going to need a lot more characters.AARON: I think there's a shorthand which is like PX risk or P AiX risk.SARAH: Maybe it's just the word doom that's a bit stupid.AARON: Yeah, that's a term out of the Bay Area rationalists.SARAH: But then I also think it kind of makes the whole thing seem less serious. People should be indignant to hear that this meme is being used to trade probabilities about the likelihood that they're going to die and their families are going to die. This has been an in-joke in this weird niche circle for years and they didn't know about it. I'm not saying that in a way to morally condemn people, but if you explain this to people…People just go to dinner parties in Silicon Valley and talk about this weird meme thing, and what they really mean is the ODs know everyone's going to prematurely die. People should be outraged by that, I think.AARON: I disagree that it's a joke. It is a funny phrase, but the actual thing is people really do stand by their belief.SARAH: No, I totally agree with that part. I'm not saying that people are not being serious when they give their numbers, but I feel like there's something. I don't know how to put this in words. There's something outrageous about the fact that for outsiders, this conversation has been happening for years and people have been using this tongue-in-cheek phrase to describe it, and 99.9% of people don't know that's happening. I'm not articulating this very well.AARON: I see what you're saying. I don't actually think it's like. I don't know a lot of jargon.SARAH: But when I first found out about this, I was outraged.AARON: I honestly just don't share that intuition. But that's really good.SARAH: No, I don't know how to describe this.AARON: I think I was just a little bit indignant, perhaps.SARAH: Yeah, I was indignant about it. I was like, you guys have been at social events making small talk by discussing the probability of human extinction all this time, and I didn't even know. I was like, oh, that's really messed up, guys.AARON: I feel like I'm standing by the rational tier because, it was always on. No one was stopping you from going on less wrong or whatever. It wasn't behind closed.SARAH: Yeah, but no one ever told me about it.AARON: Yeah, that's like a failure of outreach, I suppose.SARAH: Yeah. I think maybe I'm talking more about. Maybe the people that I'm mad at is the people who are actually working on capabilities and using this kind of jargon. Maybe I'm mad at those people. They're fine.AARON: Do we have more questions? I think we might have more questions. We have one more. Okay, sorry, but keep going.SARAH: No, I'm going to stop making that point now because I don't really know what I'm trying to say and I don't want to be controversial.AARON: Controversy is good for views. Not necessarily for you. No, thank you for that. Yes, that was a good point. I think it was. Maybe it was wrong. I think it seems right.SARAH: It was probably wrong.Shrimp Welfare: A Serious DiscussionAARON: I don't know what she thinks about shrimp welfare. Oh, yeah. I think it's a general question, but let's start with that. What do you think about shrimp? Well, today.SARAH: Okay. Is this an actual cause area or is this a joke about how if you extrapolate utilitarianism to its natural conclusion, you would really care about shrimp?AARON: No, there's a charity called the Shrimp Welfare Initiative or project. I think it's Shrimp Welfare Initiative. I can actually have a rant here about how it's a meme that people find amusing. It is a serious thing, but I think people like the meme more than they're willing to transfer their donations in light of it. This is kind of wrong and at least distasteful.No, but there's an actual, if you Google, Shrimp Welfare Project. Yeah, it's definitely a thing, but it's only a couple of years old. And it's also kind of a meme because it does work in both ways. It sort of shows how we're weird, but in the sense that we are willing to care about things that are very different from us. Not like we're threatening other people. That's not a good description.SARAH: Is the extreme version of this position that we should put more resources into improving the lives of shrimp than into improving the lives of people just because there are so many more shrimp? Are there people that actually believe that?AARON: Well, I believe some version of that, but it really depends on who the ‘we' is there.SARAH: Should humanity be putting more resources?AARON: No one believes that as far as I know.SARAH: Okay. Right. So what is the most extreme manifestation of the shrimp welfare position?AARON: Well, I feel like my position is kind of extreme, and I'm happy to discuss it. It's easier than speculating about what the more extreme ones are. I don't think any of them are that extreme, I guess, from my perspective, because I think I'm right.SARAH: Okay, so what do you believe?AARON: I think that most people who have already decided to donate, say $20, if they are considering where to donate it and they are better morally, it would be better if they gave it to the shrimp welfare project than if they gave it to any of the commonly cited EA organizations.SARAH: Malaria nets or whatever.AARON: Yes. I think $20 of malaria nets versus $20 of shrimp. I can easily imagine a world where it would go the other way. But given the actual situation, the $20 of shrimp is much better.SARAH: Okay. Is it just purely because there's just more shrimp? How do we know how much shrimp suffering there is in the world?AARON: No, this is an excellent question. The numbers are a key factor, but no, it's not as simple. I definitely don't think one shrimp is worth one human.SARAH: I'm assuming that it's based on the fact that there are so many more shrimp than there are people that I don't know how many shrimp there are.AARON: Yeah, that's important, but at some level, it's just the margin. What I think is that when you're donating money, you should give to wherever it does the most good, whatever that means, whatever you think that means. But let's just leave it at that. The most good is morally best at the margin, which means you're not donating where you think the world should or how you think the world should expend its trillion dollar wealth. All you're doing is adding $20 at this current level, given the actual world. And so part of it is what you just said, and also including some new research from Rethink Priorities.Measuring suffering in reasonable ranges is extremely hard to do. But I believe it's difficult to do a better job than raising priorities on that, given what I've seen. I can provide some links. There are a few things to consider here: numbers, times, and the enormity of suffering. I think there are a couple of key elements, including tractability.Are you familiar with the three-pronged concept people sometimes discuss, which encompasses tractability, and neglectedness?SARAH: Okay.AARON: Importance is essentially what we just mentioned. Huge numbers and plausible amounts of suffering. When you try to do the comparison, it seems like they're a significant concern. Tractability is another factor. I think the best estimates suggest that a one-dollar donation could save around 10,000 shrimp from a very painful death.SARAH: In that sense…AARON: You could imagine that even if there were a hundred times more shrimp than there actually are, we have direct control over how they live and die because we're farming them. The industry is not dominated by wealthy players in the United States. Many individual farmers in developing nations, if educated and provided with a more humane way of killing the shrimp, would use it. There's a lot of potential for improvement here. This is partly due to the last prong, neglectedness, which is really my focus.SARAH: You're saying no one cares about the shrimp.AARON: I'm frustrated that it's not taken seriously enough. One of the reasons why the marginal cost-effectiveness is so high is because large amounts of money are donated to well-approved organizations. But individual donors often overlook this. They ignore their marginal impact. If you want to see even a 1% shift towards shrimp welfare, the thing to do is to donate to shrimp welfare. Not donate $19 to human welfare and one dollar to shrimp welfare, which is perhaps what they think the overall portfolio should be.SARAH: Interesting. I don't have a good reason why you're wrong. It seems like you're probably right.AARON: Let me put the website in the chat. This isn't a fair comparison since it's something I know more about.SARAH: Okay.AARON: On the topic of obesity, neither of us were more informed than the other. But I could have just made stuff up or said something logically fallacious.SARAH: You could have told me that there were like 50 times the number of shrimp in the world than there really are. And I would have been like, sure, seems right.AARON: Yeah. And I don't know, if I…If I were in your position, I would say, “Oh, yeah, that sounds right.” But maybe there are other people who have looked into this way more than me that disagree, and I can get into why I think it's less true than you'd expect in some sense.SARAH: I just wonder if there's like… This is like a deeply non-EA thing to say. So I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say it, but are there not any moral reasons? Is there not any good moral philosophy behind just caring more about your own species than other species? If you're sorry, but that's probably not right, is it? There's probably no way to actually morally justify that, but it seems like it feels intuitively wrong. If you've got $20 to be donating 19 of them to shrimp and one to children with malaria, that feels like there should be something wrong with that, but I can't tell you what it is.AARON: Yeah, no, there is something wrong, which is that you should donate all 20 because they're acting on the margin, for one thing. I do think that doesn't check out morally, but I think basically me and everybody I know in terms of real life or whatever, I do just care way more about humans. I don't know, for at least the people that it's hard to formalize or specify what you mean by caring about or something. But, yeah, I think you can definitely basically just be a normal human who basically cares a lot about other humans. And still that's not like, negated by changing your $20 donation or whatever. Especially because there's nothing else that I do for shrimp. I think you should be like a kind person or something. I'm like an honest person, I think. Yeah, people should be nice to other humans. I mean, you should be nice in the sense of not beating them. But if you see a pigeon on the street, you don't need to say hi or whatever, give it a pet, because. I don't know. But yeah, you should be basically like, nice.SARAH: You don't stop to say hi to every pigeon that you see on the way to anywhere.AARON: I do, but I know most normal people don't.SARAH: This is why I'm so late to everything, because I have to do it. I have to stop for every single one. No exceptions.AARON: Yeah. Or how I think about it is sort of like a little bit of compartmentalization, which I think is like… Which is just sort of like a way to function normally and also sort of do what you think really checks out at the end of the day, just like, okay, 99% of the time I'm going to just be like a normal person who doesn't care about shrimp. Maybe I'll refrain from eating them. But actually, even that is like, I could totally see a person just still eating them and then doing this. But then during the 1% of the time where you're deciding how to give money away and none of those, the beneficiaries are going to be totally out of sight either way. This is like a neutral point, I guess, but it's still worth saying, yeah, then you can be like a hardcore effective altruist or whatever and then give your money to the shrimp people.SARAH: Do you have this set up as like a recurring donation?AARON: Oh, no. Everybody should call me out as a hypocrite because I haven't donated much money, but I'm trying to figure out actually, given that I haven't had a stable income ever. And maybe, hopefully I will soon, actually. But even then, it's still a part-time thing. I haven't been able to do sort of standard 10% or more thing, and I'm trying to figure out what the best thing to do or how to balance, I guess, not luxury, not like consumption on things that I… Well, to some extent, yeah. Maybe I'm just selfish by sometimes getting an Uber. That's totally true. I think I'm just a hypocrite in that respect. But mostly I think the trade-off is between saving, investing, and giving. Beast of the money that I have saved up and past things. So this is all sort of a defense of why I don't have a recurring donation going on.SARAH: I'm not asking you to defend yourself because I do not do that either.AARON: I think if I was making enough money that I could give away $10,000 a year and plan on doing that indefinitely, I would be unlikely to set up a recurring donation. What I would really want to do is once or twice a year, really try to prioritize deciding on how to give it away rather than making it the default. This has a real cost for charities. If you set up a recurring donation, they have more certainty in some sense of their future cash flow. But that's only good to do if you're really confident that you're going to want to keep giving there in the future. I could learn new information that says something else is better. So I don't think I would do that.SARAH: Now I'm just thinking about how many shrimp did you say it was per dollar?AARON: Don't quote me. I didn't say an actual thing.SARAH: It was like some big number. Right. Because I just feel like that's such a brainworm. Imagine if you let that actually get in your head and then every time you spend some unnecessary amount of money on something you don't really need, you think about how many shrimp you just killed by getting an Uber or buying lunch out. That is so stressful. I think I'm going to try not to think about that.AARON: I don't mean to belittle this. This is like a core, I think you're new to EA type of thinking. It's super natural and also troubling when you first come upon it. Do you want me to talk about how I, or other people deal with that or take action?SARAH: Yeah, tell me how to get the shrimp off my conscience.AARON: Well, for one thing, you don't want to totally do that. But I think the main thing is that the salience of things like this just decreases over time. I would be very surprised if, even if you're still very engaged in the EA adjacent communities or EA itself in five years, that it would be as emotionally potent. Brains make things less important over time. But I think the thing to do is basically to compartmentalize in a sort of weird sense. Decide how much you're willing to donate. And it might be hard to do that, but that is sort of a process. Then you have that chunk of money and you try to give it away the best you can under whatever you think the best ethics are. But then on the daily, you have this other set pot of money. You just are a normal person. You spend it as you wish. You don't think about it unless you try not to. And maybe if you notice that you might even have leftover money, then you can donate the rest of it. But I really do think picking how much to give should sort of be its own project. And then you have a pile of money you can be a hardcore EA about.SARAH: So you pick a cut off point and then you don't agonize over anything over and above that.AARON: Yeah. And then people, I mean, the hard part is that if somebody says their cut off point is like 1% of their income and they're making like $200,000, I don't know. Maybe their cut off point should be higher. So there is a debate. It depends on that person's specific situation. Maybe if they have a kid or some super expensive disease, it's a different story. If you're just a random guy making $200,000, I think you should give more.SARAH: Maybe you should be giving away enough to feel the pinch. Well, not even that. I don't think I'm going to do that. This is something that I do actually want to do at some point, but I need to think about it more and maybe get a better job.AARON: Another thing is, if you're wanting to earn to give as a path to impact, you could think and strive pretty hard. Maybe talk to people and choose your education or professional development opportunities carefully to see if you can get a better paying job. That's just much more important than changing how much you give from 10% to 11% or something. You should have this macro level optimization. How can I have more money to spend? Let me spend, like, I don't know, depends what life stage you are, but if you had just graduated college or maybe say you're a junior in college or something. It could make sense to spend a good amount of time figuring out what that path might look like.AARON: I'm a huge hypocrite because I definitely haven't done all this nearly as much as I should, but I still endorse it.SARAH: Yeah, I think it's fine to say what you endorse doing in an ideal world, even if you're not doing that, that's fine.AARON: For anybody listening, I tweeted a while ago, asking if anyone has resources on how to think about giving away wealth. I'm not very wealthy but have some amount of savings. It's more than I really need. At the same time, maybe I should be investing it because EA orgs don't feel like, or they think they can't invest it because there's potentially a lot of blowback if they make poor investments, even though it would be higher expected value.There's also the question of, okay, having some amount of savings allows me to take higher, potentially somewhat higher risk, but higher value opportunities because I have a cushion. But I'm very confused about how to give away what I should do here. People should DM me on Twitter or anywhere they have ideas.SARAH: I think you should calculate how much you need to cover your very basic needs. Maybe you should work out, say, if you were working 40 hours a week in a minimum wage job, like how much would you make then? And then you should keep that for yourself. And then the rest should definitely all go to the shrimp. Every single penny. All of it.AARON: This is pretty plausible. Just to make it more complicated, there's also the thing that I feel like my estimates or my best guesses of the best charities to give to over time has changed. And so there's like two competing forces. One is that I might get wiser and more knowledgeable as time goes on. The other one is that in general, giving now is better than giving later. All else equal, because I think for a couple of reasons, the main one just being that the charities don't know that you're going to give later.AARON: So it's like they can plan for the future much better if they get money now. And also there's just higher leverage opportunities or higher value per dollar opportunities now in general than there will be later for a couple of reasons I don't really need to. This is what makes it really complicated. So I've donated in the past to places that I don't think, or I don't think even at the time were the best to. So then there's a question of like, okay, how long do I save this money? Do I sit on it for months until I'm pretty confident, like a year.AARON: I do think that probably over the course of zero to five years or something, becoming more confident or changing your mind is like the stronger effect than how much good you give to the, or how much better it is for the charities to give now instead of later. But also that's weird because you're never committing at all.Sometimes you might decide to give it away, and maybe you won't. Maybe at that time you're like, “Oh, that's what I want. A car, I have a house, whatever.” It's less salient or something. Maybe something bad happened with EA and you no longer identify that way. Yeah, there's a lot of really thorny considerations. Sorry, I'm talking way too much.SARAH: Long, are you factoring AI timelines into this?AARON: That makes it even more sketchy. But that could also go both ways. On one hand, you have the fact that if you don't give away your money now and you die with it, it's never going to do any good. The other thing is that it might be that especially high leverage opportunities come in the future or something potentially you need, I don't know, whatever I can imagine I could make something up about. OpenPhil needs as much money as it can get to do X, Y and Z. It's really important right now, but I won't know that until a few years down the line. So just like everything else, it doesn't neatly wash out.SARAH: What do you think the AGI is going to do to the shrimp? I reckon it's probably pretty neat, like one shrimp per paperclip. Maybe you could get more. I wonder what the sort of shrimp to paperclip conversion rate is.AARON: Has anyone looked into that morally? I think like one to zero. I don't think in terms of money. You could definitely price that. I have no idea.SARAH: I don't know. Maybe I'm not taking this as seriously as I should be because I'm.AARON: No, I mean, humor is good. When people are giving away money or deciding what to do, they should be serious. But joking and humor is good. Sorry, go ahead.SARAH: No, you go ahead.AARON: I had a half-baked idea. At EA Global, they should have a comedy show where people roast everybody, but it's a fundraiser. You have to pay to get 100 people to attend. They have a bidding contest to get into the comedy show. That was my original idea. Or they could just have a normal comedy show. I think that'd be cool.SARAH: Actually, I think that's a good idea because you guys are funny. There is a lot of wit on this side of Twitter. I'm impressed.AARON: I agree.SARAH: So I think that's a very good idea.AARON: Okay. Dear Events team: hire Aaron Bergman, professional comedian.SARAH: You can just give them your Twitter as a source for how funny you are, and that clearly qualifies you to set this up. I love it.AARON: This is not important or related to anything, but I used to be a good juggler for entertainment purposes. I have this video. Maybe I should make sure the world can see it. It's like a talent show. So maybe I can do that instead.SARAH: Juggling. You definitely should make sure the world has access to this footage.AARON: It had more views than I expected. It wasn't five views. It was 90 or something, which is still nothing.SARAH: I can tell you a secret right now if you want. That relates to Max asking in the chat about glee.AARON: Yes.SARAH: This bit will also have to edit out, but me having a public meltdown over AI was the second time that I've ever blown up on the Internet. The first time being. I can't believe I'm telling you this. I think I'm delirious right now. Were you ever in any fandoms, as a teenager?AARON: No.SARAH: Okay. Were you ever on Tumblr?AARON: No. I sort of know what the cultural vibes were. I sort of know what you're referring to. There are people who like Harry Potter stuff and bands, like Kpop stuff like that.SARAH: So people would make these fan videos where they'd take clips from TV shows and then they edit them together to music. Sometimes people would edit the clips to make it look like something had happened in the plot of the show that hadn't actually happened. For example, say, what if X character had died? And then you edit the clips together to try and make it look like they've died. And you put a sad song, how to save a life by the fray or something, over the top. And then you put it on YouTube.AARON: Sorry, tell me what…"Hat I should search or just send the link here. I'm sending my link.SARAH: Oh, no, this doesn't exist anymore. It does not exist anymore. Right? So, say if you're, like, eleven or twelve years old and you do this, and you don't even have a mechanism to download videos because you don't know how to do technology. Instead, you take your little iPod touch and you just play a YouTube video on your screen, and you literally just film the screen with your iPod touch, and that's how you're getting the clips. It's kind of shaky because you're holding the camera anyway.SARAH: Then you edit together on the iMovie app of your iPod touch, and then you put it on the Internet, and then you just forget about it. You forget about it. Two years later, you're like, oh, I wonder what happened to that YouTube account? And you log in and this little video that you've made with edited clips that you've filmed off the screen of your laptop to ‘How To Save Life' by The Fray with clips from Glee in it, has nearly half a million views.AARON: Nice. Love it.SARAH: Embarrassing because this is like, two years later. And then all the comments were like, oh, my God, this was so moving. This made me cry. And then obviously, some of them were hating and being like, do you not even know how to download video clips? Like, what? And then you're so embarrassed.AARON: I could totally seem it. Creative, but only a reasonable solution. Yeah.SARAH: So that's my story of how I went viral when I was like, twelve.AARON: It must have been kind of overwhelming.SARAH: Yeah, it was a bit. And you can tell that my time, it's like 20 to eleven at night, and now I'm starting to really go off on one and talk about weird things.AARON: Like an hour. So, yeah, we can wrap up. And I always say this, but it's actually true. Which is that low standard, like, low stakes or low threshold. Low bar for doing that in recording some of the time.SARAH: Yeah, probably. We'll have to get rid of the part about how I went viral on YouTube when I was twelve. I'll sleep on that.AARON: Don't worry. I'll send the transcription at some point soon.SARAH: Yeah, cool.AARON: Okay, lovely. Thank you for staying up late into the night for this.SARAH: It's not that late into the night. I'm just like, lame and go to bed early.AARON: Okay, cool. Yeah, I know. Yeah, for sure. All right, bye. Get full access to Aaron's Blog at www.aaronbergman.net/subscribe

In today's episode, we sat down with James, a Freelance Web and Graphic Designer based in Bedford, Bedfordshire, who brings a wealth of experience in creating websites for Coaches. During our chat, we covered a lot of useful topics that can really help you level up your coaching website. We started by demystifying the differences between graphic and web design. Then, we dug into how to make sure your website truly reflects your coaching services and personal brand. James shared some great tips on planning out your website content effectively, and how to present your services in a way that resonates with your potential clients. We also explored how your website can connect better with your ideal client and the strategies you can use to keep them engaged and interested. Ever wondered whether you can change your website once it's up? We talked about that too. Plus, James shed some light on the ongoing maintenance that websites might need, and what to look for when choosing a website host. Whether you're a seasoned coach or just starting, this episode has something for you. In this episode James and I discuss about: The difference between a graphic and web designer How a website represents your personal brand How to plan out my website content How to position my services on my site What strategies can I use to engage potential clients and encourage inquiries? Is a website a static thing or can it be changed once I get it back from the designer and much more Ep 170 transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:29] Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Promotion. If you're a regular listener, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here, then you probably don't know what I'm talking about with these seven P's and the mandala, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. [00:02:58] marketing [00:03:00] forward slash one. page, the number one and the word page. And, uh, humane is with an E. So not human, but humane with an E at the end dot marketing. It comes with the seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. So humane marketing is not prescriptive. [00:03:21] It's not a six. step approach. It's a reflective approach. It's, uh, where I ask you to question all your assumptions that you have about marketing. So that's what you get with the one page marketing plan for the seven piece of humane marketing. Today I'm speaking with a new friend, James Mall, who's a web and graphic designer. [00:03:44] Uh, but before introducing you to James, I want to remind you that I'm talking to potential participants for the Marketing Like We're Human program, also known as the Client Resonator. This three month program is my main offering and it's connected [00:04:00] to this podcast and based on the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala because we'll dive deeply into these seven Ps during the program to help you discover your true self and passions so you can bring more of your. [00:04:16] into your marketing. It's really about marketing from within, marketing authentically. It's also much more than marketing. It's really about business building. And I do bring in kind of this different. business paradigm. While the main goal is to connect with your ideal clients, it goes beyond marketing. It forms the foundation of your life's work. [00:04:41] We'll start by focusing on things like passion and personal power, your why, and then move to other aspects like people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnerships. The program is in a small group setting, ensuring therefore a meaningful experience that aligns your business with your values. [00:05:00] It's a mix of videos, 20 to 30 minutes, uh, video per week. [00:05:05] Uh, beautifully designed workbook with lots of questions. My program is for deep thinkers, those who want to really roll back the sleeves and think deeply about, um, how they want to market, how they want to run their business, journal prompts. And then of course the live group calls in which I facilitate the conversation to take us even deeper into the topic of the week, who's this program for? [00:05:32] It's for entrepreneurs. Uh, who are quietly rebellious as well as change makers who have different levels of business experience, whether you've been in the game for one year, five years, or even 10 or more, it really is never too late to build a strong foundation for your business and your life's work. [00:05:52] So. If you want to know more, check out humane. marketing forward slash program for lots [00:06:00] of testimonials and case studies from past participants. And if this program feels like it might be the right fit for you right now, let's talk. There's a button on that page to schedule a call with me. So, uh, yeah, please do that. [00:06:15] We're starting on August 24th. All right. Thank you so much for letting me share about this. Now let's go back to today's podcast and back to James. So James is a freelance web and graphic designer based in Bedford. Bedford Shire, uh, that's the UK. And having worked with a variety, variety of clients, his portfolio includes fashion, swimwear, academics, coaches, property, charities, and photographers. [00:06:47] He now specializes in building websites for business coaches, and he loves and believes in helping coaches to build a better web. experience for their clients and themselves. In our [00:07:00] conversation, we talked about the difference between a graphic and web designer. I think that's really key for, uh, clients to understand. [00:07:09] How a website represents your personal brand, how to plan out. Your website content, how to position your services on your site, what strategies you can use to engage potential clients and encourage inquiries, uh, whether a website is static or whether it can be changed once you get it back from the designer and so many more topics. [00:07:34] So let's dive in with, uh, James Moll. Hi, James. I'm so happy to hang out with you. Welcome to [00:07:42] James: the show. Hi, Sarah. Thanks very much for having me. Thank you. [00:07:47] Sarah: Yeah, I'm delighted to have this conversation about websites. So let's see all the different topics we could get into. Um, we tried to beforehand, right? [00:07:57] Come up with some, some questions. [00:08:00] And so I do want to ask you one that you're like, Hey, maybe not this one, but I'm like, well, I'm going to ask you anyway, because, because actually, you know, in the bio that I just read about you, um, I did say you're a, uh, uh, web and graphic designer, right? So website designer, graphic designer. [00:08:19] And, and I know that quite a lot of people sometimes get confused. Well, what is what, who does what? And so I'd like to start us off there so that you can kind of give us a good Um, distinction between what does a graphic designer do and what does a web designer do? And if I need a website, who do I look for [00:08:44] James: then? [00:08:45] Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, it's actually quite a good question, I think, for people that are not aware, obviously, the difference between a web and a graphic designer. Being in the industry, um, a lot of people are aware. So, so a graphic designer is someone [00:09:00] that designs, uh, graphics. It could either be print based or digital based. [00:09:04] So it can either be. Uh, brochures, leaflets, um, billboards, um, and they could do digital design as well. So they could design adverts on social media. Um, there is crossover between that and websites. So they can design graphics that specifically go on websites as well. So they can sit on a, on a, um, a website, but how they differ from a web designer is that they're not techie. [00:09:29] So they're not able to, most graphic designers are not able to develop, uh, and build websites. So web designer is. actually more technical in terms of they're able to either code, uh, build a website with code, HTML, um, WordPress, um, software like that, or they can, uh, use no code software as well, which I, I worked with as well. [00:09:52] So I worked with a program called elemental along with WordPress. So I'm able to kind of use drag and drop software. Um, some like I've come, I'm [00:10:00] coming from a graphic design background to a website background. So there is some crossover, um, but generally. Graphic designers tend to design, um, the graphics either for print or digital. [00:10:13] Um, and they don't really tend to do websites. So they differ in that instance. I hope that kind of clears [00:10:20] Sarah: up things. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess. A graphic designer can learn to be a web designer and then be both, which is your case. And a web designer can also, or that's a question, do web designers sometimes also go into graphic design? [00:10:40] Or maybe that direction is less common. What would you say? [00:10:45] James: Um, I've actually met quite a few people that have gone both. So from like myself on graphic design into website design, and then vice versa, website design to graphic design. And I think it just [00:11:00] matters on your technical ability and what you enjoy. [00:11:04] If you enjoy graphic design, if you enjoy sort of creating. You know, anything from logos to branding, you know, brochures, um, graphic design is so wide as well. Um, and then it easily crosses over onto, um, website design. Um, it's kind of similar to coaching in a way, I guess, because a lot of sort of business coaches, for example, that I work with tend to do, you know, personal coaching as well, life coaching, um, and vice versa. [00:11:36] So there's some crossover there as well. So, um. Yeah, they can be cross over as well. [00:11:41] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. In my, um, sense of understanding this is the graphic design has to do with the beauty. It has to do with the aesthetics, with the art, with the colors, with the logo, uh, you know, with the, yeah, the word says it graphic, right? [00:11:58] And so [00:12:00] the web designer would be probably more, um, oriented towards the functionality of the site. Uh, of the website. So being like, you know, all of these click funnels and lead generation things that, that is more tech related. So, uh, in a way, I guess it's a good idea to look for someone who has an understanding of both. [00:12:24] Because then you get an aesthetically good looking website that also has the functionality behind [00:12:30] James: it. Right. Yeah, that's right. And that's why people like to hire me. Yeah. Because, uh, yeah, because I'm able to do, to do both. And, um, you know, from a UX and UI point of view, I'm able to kind of wireframe, uh, create like a blueprint and a map of, uh, the user experience as well, which is quite key. [00:12:51] I think a lot of web designers. Don't tend to think of that as well. Um, so it's not just making sure the website looks pretty, but also the [00:13:00] fact that you're thinking about calls to action, you know, your call to action buttons, getting people to book discovery calls or sign up to your mailing list. Or, [00:13:09] Sarah: yeah, so let's get in all of that because there's a lot to, to uncover. [00:13:13] So, so basically, yeah, we now know that there's both, right. There's the aesthetics and then there's the actual user friendliness and the. The functionality behind the site. So, so maybe before we go into the functionality, like what I, this is embarrassing, but like more than 15 years ago when I started out, I actually also designed some small websites for, for clients, you know, WordPress was like really new back then. [00:13:43] And so I quickly noticed how difficult of a job it actually is. Not so much big because of, you know, I was using WordPress. So it's pretty simple to put a website together, but where I always got stuck is with the [00:14:00] clients and their content, like the, the, the design of the site and their actual understanding of what needs to go on a site. [00:14:09] So I think that's also why there's. A lot of people, I don't know if that happens to you, but I know it happens to me that come with baggage and they complain about their website designer. They're like, it just didn't work out. Uh, and oftentimes it's because there is a miscommunication of who does what and in what kind of timeframe. [00:14:31] And so how can we help or, or, uh, to which level do we as the client have to be prepared? Uh, when we go to a website designer in terms of our content, in terms of knowing what needs to go on this website. [00:14:50] James: Yeah, so the content is, um, is a key thing in any website. And before, when I kind of started out, I used to kind of [00:15:00] rely on the client giving me the content and it doesn't always work out because what you've, you know, you designed a website and you put everything together and you made it look nice and you've put stock images there and you've put some. [00:15:12] Laura Ibsen text to kind of fill the gaps and you create a nice looking website and then the client either They do two things that either hand you Very little content. So there's hardly any text or any writing that they've put together themselves Or they can either give you too much Content so there's a lot to kind of pick pick out and put on the website And the information is is key because the information is what's gonna Sell your services. [00:15:40] So it's it's one of the most important things On a website and before when I started out, I used to always think about the design side and coming from a graphic design point of view as well. I used to always think about looking at making the website look pretty and probably less on the content, but as I've developed as a web designer and working with with coaches. [00:15:57] Now, I realized that, you know, [00:16:00] part of what we do is working with the coaches and having copywriters on board to help them create. Copy that is great to go on the website. Um, and that, you know, it's talking about their target clients, um, addresses, um, their pain points, um, and sells their services in a way that, um, reflects them, uh, in a, in a positive light, really. [00:16:25] Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:26] Sarah: Yeah. So, so you see the same thing is like, it can really be a, this idea. Oh, I need a website. But then once they talk to you or talk to any website designer, then they tell them, well, have you thought about, you know, who's your ideal client? How are you going to describe it? So it's like, it's this basically box of worms that all of a sudden gets. [00:16:52] you know, discover is like, Oh, I thought that was going to be quick and easy. And then I have, you know, all these other things that I now [00:17:00] need to look at and write about. [00:17:01] James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the planning stages is key with any website. Um, you know, sometimes clients will come to you and I used to have this a lot when I was starting out, you know, they'll say we need a website done in a week or two weeks or, you know, unrealistic deadlines and they're kind of rushing and they've got. [00:17:19] content ready and they're trying to create a website and they think that, you know, you can very easily create a website, you know, in a matter of a few days or a week and you can, but you know, it's like with anything, it's good to sit down and plan out, you know, the user experience, uh, wireframe and on paper, just, just even sketch out what, what kind of number of pages, the menu structure, uh, the calls to action, uh, what kind of information you're going to have, testimonials, um, All of that kind of stuff, social proof, um, and then layout, what kind of, what goes where, and think about that and spend time thinking about that [00:18:00] before you've done any kind of development or design. [00:18:03] That is a, is a must, I think now working with clients because we spend, we spend a good couple of weeks actually just, just on that. Um, when I work with clients now, uh, before we do any development work. [00:18:16] Sarah: Right. So take us into this user experience because you mentioned it a few times now. So, so what does that mean? [00:18:24] Take me on this journey. So let's say, you know, I'm landing on a website for the first time. Uh, I'm on the homepage. What needs to happen next? So take me through that journey. [00:18:39] James: Yeah, so when you're, when you've landed on a, um, homepage, for example, which is a, um, land, another word for landing page as well. So a landing page could be any page really on the website. [00:18:49] It's the first page that you're directed to. And often that is the homepage. But often you'll see a homepage and you'll see, you know, you've got the menu at the top. You've got your, um. [00:19:00] Items below it. So you would have like a hero image and you would have welcome to the website or whatever the company or person does on the website. [00:19:09] And then you'd have, you know, testimonials below it and you would have services, uh, what the coach does, for example, calls to action. Um, but it's. really mapping out clearly what goes where in terms of the information. So you want to be, for example, you don't want to be telling people about you necessarily what you do and how great you are. [00:19:33] You want to be talking about how you're helping them with their, with their problem, this problem solution. And you'll, you know, you, you've got a list of. your ideal client, you know, what kind of issues they're going through. Uh, for example, if they've, um, if you're in a corporate kind of coach, um, that's helping people that are coming out of corporate, the corporate environment, you want to say that, you know, uh, here's a, [00:20:00] this is what I do. [00:20:01] You know, are you coming out of a corporate job? Are you looking to start your own business getting into coaching, for example, and As soon as they see that at the top, you know, they know that this site is for them because people would immediately turn off in the first, you know, couple of three to five seconds. [00:20:18] If they don't see any benefit in, in, um, in the website and they'll just click, click off. So you have a high bounce rate as well. [00:20:27] Sarah: Yeah. It's actually in what we're just talking about this today in the humane marketing circle is the unique value proposition. You know, what it is you are offering To me, as the visitor to your website, how is it different from anybody else's offer? [00:20:44] And, uh, yeah, do I feel concerned? Like, yeah, do you speak to me or, you know? Yeah. Instead, do you just speak about yourself? And then I have to figure out if you're actually the right [00:21:00] fit for me. Um, [00:21:01] James: yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people make that mistake because. They want to say, you know, how great they are, you know, how many qualifications they've got, certifications, um, testimonials. [00:21:12] They want to, you know, literally tell the whole world about how great they are, but they forget about the client that they kind of helping. And what their problems are and really speaking to the client, you know, everything that you should be doing should be speaking towards your ideal client. And again, that's tied into the marketing side of things that you're aware of. [00:21:33] And a lot of web designers or graphic designers don't tend to think about that because it's a shame because a lot of web design and graphic design is quite separate from marketing. So coming from a background of both, I'm able to kind of use have both sides and think. You know, from a customer user point of view and think from a technical point of view, uh, and also from a design and colorful and making [00:22:00] everything look pretty kind of point of view as well. [00:22:02] So that it's a problem that I think we have in the industry where. In the whole kind of design industry where there's a miscommunication often between the marketing message and what you're trying to portray on an advertisement or a website. Um, there could be a misalignment there. Yeah. [00:22:24] Sarah: Yeah, I totally agree. [00:22:25] I think that the, you know, it's often a case in corporations as well, where they separate marketing from sales and, and here it's the same marketing should be part of it because that's essentially what you're doing with your website. You're not wanting to talk to yourself. You're wanting to talk to your ideal clients and everything you just said about the homepage. [00:22:48] I learned it's the same thing about on your about page, uh, on your about page, of course we think, Oh, it's about me. And yes, it is, but only in a second instance, it really [00:23:00] is again. Uh, people come to your about page because they want to find out if you're a good match for them. So they're really looking at the about page as a mirror much more than, you know, I'm so interested in this person that they don't know yet. [00:23:15] Right. And so it's kind of like just more like a checklist. Okay. Yes. This aligns this lines. Uh, and so it's the same thing for the about page. Um, so talk to us a bit more about the, uh, engagement. So. You know, it could be perceived that a website is a static thing because, you know, it just sits there. So how do we make it engaging, um, that actually people stay on it, first of all, you know, read our information and then maybe even go a step further. [00:23:50] How do we get them to stay in touch? [00:23:53] James: Yeah, I mean, One of the key things is not to put all of the [00:24:00] information out there in terms of content. So if you want to create engagement, for example, um, FAQs are a good example of this. So you don't want to frequently ask questions that you have. You don't want to sort of list them all out on the website. [00:24:14] You want to have options where people can click on a, on a question and they have a drop down and it tells them a little bit more about it. So anything that kind of people can interact with and engage with buttons that lead them on to another page, for example, that tells them a little bit more information. [00:24:31] So if you've got like a book, for example, that you're selling and you said, you know, do you want to buy this book right now? And then you clicked on the book and it just went to the purchase page. And it was just like. selling you the book, you know, from a buying point of view, it's not a great sales experience because you're not really giving them any more information about the book that they're buying. [00:24:51] So you want to create, um, almost like a sales funnel where you're, they click on, uh, to find out more about the book that you're selling, for example, [00:25:00] uh, how it can benefit them. Um, maybe give them like a free sample or demo, uh, That they can download like a PDF and then an option afterwards to then click and purchase. [00:25:14] So it's very much thinking about that user again, thinking about the user journey and experience rather than, you know, people are so desperate to kind of, you know, sell stuff, for example, or book a discovery call. And it's very much that you've got to kind of educate people. You've got to create that. Um, That trust, you've got to build that up, I think. [00:25:33] And you can't just rush into it. It's, it's, it's again, it's like us talking for example, now, and if we were at like a networking event and we met for the first time, for example, when you often meet people at networking events and, you know, they're just telling you how great they are and they're just like, do you want to buy my stuff? [00:25:47] Do you want to have a, let's book a call. Let's let's talk by my stuff. It's all me, me, me. And they don't really kind of create that opportunity where they, you know, you, you kind of. Meet them or add them on online or, um, go [00:26:00] to the website, find out a little bit more about them. And then a little bit later on, in the, in the kind of buying decision, you kind of decide that you want to work with them, um, rather than sort of rushing in. [00:26:13] It's kind of people kind of rush in. Um, [00:26:15] Sarah: yeah. Tell us how this would apply to the discovery call, because I like that a lot. So, so, um, and, and I'll share what I have in place, but yeah, I'd love to hear from you. Like, Okay. So I get it for the book. Yeah. How would you apply it to a discovery call? [00:26:34] James: So for a discovery call, for instance, you will, um, you've also got call to action on the site. [00:26:40] So I've got call to action. If people do want to book a discovery call straight away and they can click, you know, book a discovery call. So that's for people that have already made their decision. Um, so they've looked at your website, they've seen your homepage senior about page. Um, What you offer us is, you know, problem solution. [00:26:58] You can [00:27:00] help them with their, um, what their, whatever their problems are, issues are, and they've already made the decision to work with you. And they, you know, just click book a discovery call. So they're those kind of people are, um, sort of warm leads and they kind of, they're in that sort of. Uh, they want to buy from you and they want to buy what you're, what you, what you've got, but people that are, um, maybe need to be a bit more educated, for example, um, you'd kind of maybe I've got a few landing pages, for example, um, I've created for coaches where they could find out a bit more about me. [00:27:36] Uh, about what I do, the kind of clients that I work with. So it's kind of testimonials, social proof, um, talking through people, through, through the discovery process that I go through with clients. Um, and then they can, from there, they can decide to book a call at the end. So they can scroll right down to the bottom and then they can decide to book a call. [00:27:59] So those kinds of [00:28:00] people need, um, probably a bit more. educating and kind of getting to know you. Um, it just depends. I think if people are coming from online and if they've never met you before, then they're going to need a bit to know a bit more about you and probably add you on social media as well. [00:28:13] Follow you on, on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram, um, for, you know, at least a couple of months or, or, or whatever time period. And before they start working with you, uh, people that you've already met from online or networking or face to face networking, and they kind of know you and aware. The problems and solutions that you kind of solve. [00:28:36] Um, they're a little bit of more of a warmer lead. So they, they can, they just want to book a discovery call and they just want to talk to you. Right. Yeah. [00:28:44] Sarah: I would say the quality then also of this discovery, discovery call is, is very different. Um, if Someone comes to your site for the very first time and then just books a discovery call to me, those are often the clients [00:29:00] who just want to discover about, you know, website design. [00:29:04] Uh, so it's not like they are necessarily already. Um, on the gentle sales paths, like I call it that, that they don't know about you. They're not buying into you yet. They're just buying, they just need a website. Right. And it's like, Oh, this is one of them. Okay. Let me book a call. And then you're basically spending your whole time on this call, educating them, uh, instead of actually them, them educating themselves on their own time. [00:29:33] That's how I look at it. I'm like, well, I have all these things on my website. Spend some time there, you know, listen to the podcast, read the books, whatever, you know. There's a lot of information there. And then let's get on a call because otherwise, what often happens is we can spend our days on these discovery calls and then kind of end up being frustrated because, you know, people are just not there yet in [00:30:00] terms of where they are in their, um, sales decision. [00:30:04] Uh, and so that's, that's why often people who come to me and say, you know, I'm not closing. I'm like, well, you know, what do you have on your, I call them signposts. What do you have on your gentle sales path? Like your, um, like your templates that you're going to share with us for the landing page, right? [00:30:23] It's education like that, that then also leads to a better quality, uh, sales call. So, so yeah, I totally see that. Um, I also have an intake form. Where I didn't actually ask, you know, have you read, uh, my blog posts? Have you listened to the, so that I also come to this conversation knowing where they're at, because there's nothing worse than to be on a sales call and feel like being sold to, and, you know, and then. [00:30:52] After I do all this talking, they're like, actually, you know, I just want to talk to you and see how we can get started. [00:31:00] And so it's really good to pick them up [00:31:01] James: where they're at, right? Yeah. And also you don't want to be in that position of convincing them kind of thing as well. I think in my earlier days, I would often have to convince clients because, um, before I kind of niche down and work with. [00:31:16] Coaches and consultants and mentors and, you know, speakers and authors. Um, I used to work with quite a large variety of clients and I didn't really niche down in anything, so I didn't specialize in anything. So, um, I was seen more as a commodity. So, um, you know, it was all about price and it was all very much, um. [00:31:38] Yeah, fix it on price. So I'm kind of like, I lost track of where we were. Right. Checking around. Where were we? Sorry. Yeah, [00:31:46] Sarah: it's so important. Um, yeah. Any, any other things about the, you know, engagement and, and how to get more inquiries? Cause I think that's something that, you know, people [00:32:00] are really. Yeah, wanting to know more about, like, which part is content related and which part then is, like, we didn't talk about newsletter signups, right? [00:32:11] What are some mistakes you, you see there that, um, on websites related to that? [00:32:18] James: Um, I think a lot of times I think people have a newsletter signup and they don't really know what it is or, um, they don't really have a newsletter in place. So I think one of the key things is to have a just a mailing list. [00:32:34] Or a newsletter in place and tell people like, I've got one that's coming soon at the moment. So I'm just taking emails at the moment. So I actually don't have a newsletter at the moment. But a lot of the times people are just having a newsletter for the sake of having a newsletter. And I think you could have some sort of strategy behind it and know, because it is another way of bringing in leads. [00:32:54] Um, but it's not going to be straight away. Like, it's not going to be a, like, So today, tomorrow or next [00:33:00] week, you know, you you're still educating people about what you do. And it's again, it's the same with a blog on your website, you know, people come back and they will read your blog newsletters. So people are aware of, you know, your services, what you're offering, and they can see you on social media as well. [00:33:19] And if they've signed up to your newsletter, for example, as well, they see you quite active. So the more you're kind of, they're aware of what you do and who you are as a person, um, they, they have you in mind. So even if it's not for them, um, they will have you in mind for someone else. So as long as you're like that person that they think of when they think about sort of, um, You know, humane marketing, for example, um, and, uh, me being a web design consultant, working with coaches, um, you know, want to be like the first person that they think of. [00:33:55] So you want to have that, the newsletters were part of that sort of, that sort of [00:34:00] marketing strategy. Um, I think people don't often look at that hand in hand, like together, they just sit kind of separate. Um, but Anything that you do, if it's even if it's, you know, social media posts, um, uh, newsletters or blogging, you should always have like an end goal when you should always think about it from what, you know, what benefit are you giving to your clients? [00:34:27] Um, and it shouldn't really be just, you know, bragging about how great you are again with the website. A lot of times, you know, people are bragging about what qualifications or what things they're getting up to and what they're doing. As opposed to, um, how they're benefiting their clients and what kind of problems they can solve them for their clients. [00:34:44] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So let's say, okay, we have designed this, this website, we have the content, uh, everything is in place. And then, I'm sure you're used to that, the client's like, Oh, I need to change, [00:35:00] you know, this copy again and, and, and this and that. When, when do you hand the site over and is there, you know, can we still change it? [00:35:11] I think that's probably a question that people wonder is like, okay, uh, I've heard of WordPress, uh, you know, how easy is it to then change the site [00:35:21] James: myself? Yeah, so it depends. I mean, if the client either wants content or design changes, um, I have a, um, maintenance, uh, package that I offer clients that for the upkeep of the site and, uh, updates as well. [00:35:41] Um, so that could be an ad hoc kind of basis, um, or, or they could, yeah, pay as and when they need it. Um, but ideally, um, I also do videos as well. So I do a video to show clients how to edit the [00:36:00] site themselves. So they've got like that on their dashboard, um, how to upload images and text and change all that stuff. [00:36:06] But it just depends on the client. If they're You know, it's like a lot of coaches are too busy, so they don't have time to update their site themselves. So they either fall into two categories, the one that, you know, they do have time and they would like to do it themselves, or they're too busy and they don't, they would like you to do it. [00:36:23] So it depends on, on the, on the, um. So basically [00:36:27] Sarah: it can be changed, it just needs time. Yeah, yeah. Or you can do it for them and, and well, it takes money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always that equation. [00:36:38] James: But it should always be changed. I mean, I would do recommend for, you know, keeping a site regularly up to date, um, helps with your SEO, um, search engine optimization. [00:36:48] Um, you know, Google likes it when you've got up to date blogs and content on there. So a lot of times people will design a website, have it designed, and they [00:37:00] will just get excited and launch the website and make a lot buzz around it. And then within a few months or a year down the line, they've done nothing with the website. [00:37:10] So they've not added to the website and there's nothing new on their website. So from a search point of view, it gets ranked lower. Um, so the more engagement you've got on site, the more, um, people that are clicking on the site. So you want to constantly be putting content on the site and advertising on social media, for example, and plugging the site as much as possible. [00:37:33] Um, but it should always be Up to date in terms of content as much as possible. Um, but yeah, again, it's an, it's an additional charge. So once the site has been done and handed over to you, it's, um, it's an additional charge, it's kind of like. Decorating, for example, if this room that we're in, for example, if, you know, it's painted white, but if you wanted to paint it, you know, yellow or whatever, you know, there'll be an additional charge to purchase paint and do repaint the [00:38:00] whole room. [00:38:00] And then again, you want to pay it like orange or something or purple in a year's time. It's again, it can be done, but it's an additional. It's going to cost more time and money to kind of do that. Yeah, of course. [00:38:12] Sarah: So you mentioned, um, maintenance to me, there's two different things. There's maintenance, uh, which is kind of like updating the plugins and making sure it's the last, uh, and most recent WordPress, uh, addition, things like that. [00:38:28] Um, Or, you know, even backups and then there's updates, which is content updates or even design updates. So they're separate things like so like how much maintenance so purely functionality oriented maintenance does a website take once it's. [00:38:51] James: Yeah. So once a website is published, um, no matter what kind of software you're using, I mean, I build websites using WordPress. [00:38:59] Um, [00:39:00] if you could be using Wix or, or another software, for example, um, but it may certainly needs to be maintained in terms of security, uh, any kind of bugs that can happen on a site. Um, so it needs to be all anything plugin related that you've got any software that you use to kind of build, for example, if you've got, um, Um, I'm trying to think now, uh, scheduling software, any kind of, uh, appointment booking software, any additional plugins that are required. [00:39:29] If you've got Google, for example, or you've got Google site kit on there, uh, you've got Yoast SEO, um, on there. So you've got all these kind of different plugins, um, on there. They need to be kind of up to date and maintained. Um, otherwise they can kind of break the site as well. So if you've, uh, not updated a site after a while, if it runs into any kind of conflicts with plugin, um, Um, different plugins. [00:39:51] It can actually break the whole site. Uh, so you've got that as one issue. And then also you've got potential any, any site is vulnerable, [00:40:00] uh, online is vulnerable to being hacked as well. So, uh, twice to me [00:40:04] Sarah: already. So yeah. Yeah. So it's not like this. Thing that never happens. It [00:40:07] James: doesn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. So again, um, software in terms of security wise, um, needs to be monitored, monitored. [00:40:15] Um, so there's all that kind of stuff to kind of think about. And that's the more kind of techie kind of stuff. And that's the stuff that A lot of people don't like to kind of think about, but it's very important because obviously in terms of the longevity of the site, it's not nice to have a site that's being, being hacked. [00:40:32] Um, you know, so, um, it's always good to kind of, it's almost like insurance is always good to kind of just pay the extra to, to, to, to have someone do it. Or at least invest the time, you know, you could watch YouTube videos and learn how to do it yourself. But again, it depends if you want to spend the hassle time kind of learning that as well. [00:40:53] But it's the, it's [00:40:55] Sarah: the hassle of learning it, but it's also then the hassle of finding somebody who's [00:41:00] gonna fix your hacked site, right? Yeah. Where if you have kind of put aside some, uh, some for maintenance. Then that person somehow becomes responsible as well of, uh, having to fix the site or at least you'll come up with a fair price where if you just come to a new person and say, Hey, please, can you fix my site? [00:41:23] It's been completely hacked. They're going to charge you quite a bit to do that. [00:41:29] James: Yeah, yeah. Again, obviously with the backups, um, you know, all our sites are backed up. Um, content and design is backed up regularly. So if there is a problem, we can get back to a backup. Um, uh, so it's quite easily, uh, again, a lot of people don't back up their site. [00:41:49] So a lot of people, um, Sort of presume that's really done. And I've seen it in the past with clients that come to me and they've had cheap hosting in the past where they said, you know, they can get hosting for [00:42:00] like, I don't know, like 499, 599 or 10 pound, 10 or whatever it is a month or whatever it is. [00:42:07] And they think they're really happy with the hosting, but then they don't realize the fact that there is no added security or backups in place. And when something does go wrong, they All their content, everything is lost on the site again as well. And if you've got no backup of that all, um, you've got, for example, your blogs, if they're written in sort of Word documents and you've got them stored on, on your computer, it's good, you know, that's another backup. [00:42:34] Um, but again, you've got to go for the hassle of. You know, republishing everything, republishing everything and that sort of thing. So it's very, that's a hassle as well, you know. [00:42:44] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. All right. We want to end in a positive note, not in a, Oh my God, it's so scary out there. Um, yeah, just like everything. [00:42:55] Yes, everything can happen. It's, it's online and, and, and there is. That, [00:43:00] um, kind of tech stuff that, that happens. So, um, but yeah, like I said, let's, let's not end in a, in a negative note. Um, do you have a template that, um, you're sharing with our listeners? So. Why don't you tell us a little bit of what that is and where people can find [00:43:19] James: it? [00:43:20] Yeah, sure. Um, so I'll provide a link. Um, it's called the two week landing page challenge for coaches. So it's, um, a lot of people, a lot of clients just come to me that used to have, you know, trouble creating a landing page. And, um, I realized that I didn't really have. You know, if it's stuck in my mind and I like kind of can do it, but I don't realize that all this information was out there. [00:43:44] So I put it create like a template for people to kind of for coaches to download and very easily kind of put together. So, um, I'll provide the link for that. But yeah, it's just anyone else kind of. in the coaching space that needs to create a landing page to [00:44:00] sell a book that they're providing or um, a call to action, um, book a discovery call or any kinds of call to actions that they really just want to that specific key rather than providing it on the entire website. [00:44:12] They just want to specifically one pager, one pager. So it's a template that people can freely download. Um, and again, if you did want to book a discovery call with me and if you needed any help, I'm available to, um, help you out with any questions as well. [00:44:27] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. Thanks. We'll make sure we, we link to that. [00:44:31] And, um, yeah, your website is also in the, in the, um, in the text, uh, jamesmall. co. uk. Right. Uh, where are you most hanging out? [00:44:42] James: Sorry. And it's forward slash coaches to go on the actual coaching landing page. [00:44:46] Sarah: Okay. Great. And you're mainly on which social media platforms? So I'm [00:44:52] James: quite active on LinkedIn. [00:44:53] LinkedIn is probably the most best place. It's the best place to kind of connect with me and find out more about me and um, [00:45:00] just DM me and I'm always happy to talk. So. [00:45:02] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:45:10] James: What am I grateful for today? Um, I suppose I'm grateful for feeling a lot better and being able to eat normal food again. [00:45:19] Uh, cause I've had a ongoing, I've had an ongoing chest infection for the last couple of months. So yeah, I did kind of stop working for a little while and I couldn't eat some foods. Um, so I'm, I'm glad that I got my energy back and, you know, I'm able to kind of, I'm out of breath and I'm able to enjoy food. [00:45:38] Um, [00:45:39] Sarah: which is a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't realize it until we don't have it anymore. [00:45:44] James: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm actually going to a Retreat this weekend, helping my friend up, um, we were talking about it earlier. Um, so I'm going to be helping them out in the kitchen and there's going to be yoga and meditation and sound therapy there. [00:45:58] So yeah, I'm grateful [00:46:00] for being able to kind of take part in that as well. So, um, delightful. So yeah, I'm grateful. [00:46:06] Sarah: Thank you. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on to the show. Really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks, James. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you very much. Thank you. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode, especially if you're new to business and are needing to build your website. [00:46:26] You can find out more about James at jamesmall. co. uk. And as he mentioned, James also has a gift for us. It's a coach's landing page template, uh, which you can get at jamesmall. co. uk forward slash humane marketing. Uh, this is also a page where you'll find the two week challenge that, uh, James mentioned when he was speaking, James mainly hangs out on LinkedIn. [00:46:57] So make sure to send them a message [00:47:00] there, connect with him and tell him that you listened. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing. com You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing. [00:47:21] com 1 7 1, sorry, 1 7 0. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, uh, such as the Humane Business Manifesto, the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. [00:47:51] We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:48:00]

With the real estate market shifting, more and more real estate agents are going to be starting property management companies. Is this you? If you are starting a property management business, this episode is for you. Join property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull as they discuss the best way to build the foundation of your property management business in the current market. You'll Learn [01:18] The Trends in the Market and What They Mean [07:10] Why You Should Start a Property Management Business [10:09] Building the Right Foundation [15:03] The Product Research Strategy [17:39] The Next Steps for Your Business Tweetables “The biggest challenge usually getting started is just taking action to actually get the business going.” “When you're in that dreamer or that fantasy stage, a lot of times we are very good at looking at all the upside, and we're very good at ignoring the difficulties or the downside.” “Property management, like I mentioned in the intro, is the ultimate gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.” “A lot of the people that are the least qualified to be doing it, they're going to be the ones that get hurt the most because they're not paying attention much to the market.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: the biggest challenge usually getting started is just taking action to actually get the business going, and they get caught up on wasting a lot of time on stuff that doesn't really matter when the only thing that really matters is getting your first client, right? That first door is the hardest.  [00:00:16] Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host property management growth expert, Jason Hull, along with Sarah I'm the founder and CEO she is owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:17] Alright. So today's topic, we've been noticing there's some trends and some changes in the real estate industry, which is going to probably create some shifts. So what are we noticing?  [00:01:29] Sarah: Well, so some of you may have realized real estate isn't quite what it was a couple months, even a year ago, certainly not what it was two years ago. Things have a shifted a little bit in the market. There was a point where you can list a property, you would get, you know, multiple offers in one to two days, and it would sell for a whole lot over asking and it was very easy. It was simple because the market was just on fire. Things have changed just a little bit. They've slowed down. And we wanted to talk about what happens when the real estate market slows down.  [00:02:14] Jason: So, historically what I've noticed is anytime real estate kind of takes a nose dive or slows down or there's some sort of recession or something like this, I see a lot of real estate agents quit. There's a lot of real estate agents that don't renew their license. They leave, they quit, they give up. And a lot of these are the newer ones or the ones that came in thinking it'd be really easy when things were great and we had years of feast and now that there maybe is coming famine, they're out. And so we see a lot of that. I also see a lot of real estate agents decide to become property managers because they're struggling to get real estate deals. They're like, "what else could I do? I'm going to start a property management business because all of the other ones around me aren't that great." [00:03:00] And so historically DoorGrow, we get a lot of clients coming to us, looking for new websites and starting a business when the market takes a nosedive or there's a shift in real estate. So the other thing, I just saw a video that was pretty interesting data, and it was showing how there's been this huge spike in inventory in Airbnbs, but the revenue generated on average by Airbnbs has dipped in some markets to like 50% of the revenue generated per unit or per owner. And so the revenue's dipping significantly, but there's a lot of inventory of Airbnbs. What's going to happen is that bubble is going to burst, it's going to collapse because a lot of Airbnbs are going to sell. I talked to a property manager here locally in Austin, and he said he already saw the writing on the wall. And shout out to my buddy and friend, Brett Koster. He said that he already saw the writing on the wall. Oh, Koster, Koster. I said his name wrong. He did. All right. Koster Kingdom-- sorry-- on Instagram. I got you. All right. I think Koster sounds cool, but it's Koster, it's not "coaster." So yeah. Sorry Brett. [00:04:07] All right. So Brett said he already saw the writing on the wall and he went to his short-term rental clients and he said, Hey, let's convert these into long-term rentals. because this is what I see coming. So I think there's an opportunity for property managers out there. There's an opportunity for real estate agents to get into property management that brings a lot of unqualified people and people that are going to not be very great and make a lot of mistakes perhaps unless they have their own investments, they've been dealing with property management a little bit. We can help you do this correctly and we'll talk a little bit about our DoorGrow Foundations in a little bit, but those of you that are established property managers, there's going to be an opportunity for you to capitalize maybe on this bubble, this Airbnb bubble, and convert some of the short-term rentals or convince some of the short-term rentals to convert the long term. [00:04:57] Otherwise, they're probably going to sell an exit. For real estate agents, that's your opportunity is maybe to identify those Airbnbs that really need to just get sold so that they don't end up losing out. A lot of unqualified people came into the short-term rental situation as a result of the pandemic and everything else thinking, "Hey, there's a bunch of opportunity here now afterwards, and they are, you know, a lot of the people that are the least qualified to be doing it, they're going to be the ones that get hurt the most because they're not paying attention much to the market.  [00:05:30] Sarah: And there's a lot of like coaching things for like, "oh, here, I'll teach you how to like, run an Airbnb or like a short term rental business." and I think it's a really great idea. It is. I think what oftentimes happens is people significantly underestimate the amount of work that it takes. Significantly. Like Jason and I, we were just at Melanie's event last week and we were talking with someone who manages two short-term rental properties and she is already done. She's completely overwhelmed. She hates it. And that's only at two, two properties. And she's like, "everything is just urgent. They need it right now. You know, you can't wait, and sometimes people have very unreasonable expectations and thoughts as to what is an emergency and what needs to be done right now." so if you're in that short term Rental game. Our advice to her was, "you need a property manager," like, and one that does short-term rentals like on a consistent basis, not one that is just able to say, "Hey, I can do short-term." When you get into the short-term game, your short-term game and your long-term game are completely different. [00:06:39] They function like two very separate businesses, and we have a few clients that do both short term and long term, and they realize very quickly that they are not at all the same thing. They have to operate very differently just because of that quick turnover.  [00:06:57] Jason: Yeah, so I'm doing a webinar later today with a friend of mine that basically does some coaching stuff to the real estate industry to real estate agents. So I'm going to be talking to real estate agents about how they can double their real estate commissions by leveraging property management and there's an opportunity here. Real estate agents can either start their own property management business so that they can keep their investor clients or they can partner with a property manager locally, which could be you listening, and that could help them as well. [00:07:34] I've had several clients that if they make the property management arm of their business, when they also have brokerage, double their brokerage commissions simply by making sure property management is healthy, that they're acquiring new clients, that there's healthy flow, and that has fed them a lot more real estate deals. A lot of companies get their real estate deals from the tenants that are looking to get into buying a home from owners that are looking to buy or sell, they're getting real estate deals and commissions and property management, like I mentioned in the intro, is the ultimate gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. And so there's an opportunity there for those listening to either start your own property management business if you don't have that yet or to partner with a property manager, and there's ways they can help you generate revenue, get more deals if you have a good relationship. Especially those of my clients because they know how to help real estate agents get more real estate deals and make more money. [00:08:37] We teach them how to do this. So why don't we talk about to those that are looking to maybe get into property management or have been thinking about starting it up. Okay. Okay.  [00:08:48] Sarah: Okay. So if you're thinking about starting a property management business, I think it would be a very good time to do that because we aren't quite sure where the real estate market is going. Are we heading into a recession? Are we already in the recession? Is it going to continue to tank? We don't know. So I think it's a really great time to start a property management business. I actually started one years ago just kind of by mistake, and I learned some hard lessons along the way. So what we've done is we've created a course called DoorGrow Foundations for people who are starting, or who have recently started a property management company. So by like startups, we mean that you might already have a few clients, but you are just really not, you know, a big large company at this point. What we've done is we've kind of, mapped out.  [00:09:45] Jason: Or you have zero doors? Or like purely nothing.  [00:09:48] Sarah: Yeah. Started, I started by saying that, okay. [00:09:51] Jason: Just to clarify, a lot of the people that I talked to that have started their property management business, they started it because they were an investor. [00:09:57] They already had 10, sometimes even a hundred units that were their own. And then they decided to start doing it, third party, and then they were actually starting a business. So before that, they just considered themselves an investor. So why don't we tell them a little bit about our Foundations program  [00:10:12] then? [00:10:12] Sarah: Yeah. So what we've done in DoorGrow Foundations is we have created an entire course that you can go through that talks about all of the things that you're going to need to know when starting a property management business. We go into all of the mistakes that we see a lot of people make right around this point. [00:10:32] And I've leveraged my own experience as well to help people avoid making some really common mistakes. So some of the things that we've talked about are, you know, what do your bank accounts need to look like and what should your financials look like? And, you know, how do we prioritize, like how do we get started? What should my day look like? Like all of these types of things are usually questions that people have when they're starting up. And unfortunately, sometimes if you don't kind of set that up the right way in the beginning, then it comes around to kind of bite you later. So we've put all of this into a course and we've made this available because a lot of times we get people contacting us who don't yet have a property management business. [00:11:20] They're like, "Hey, I want to start this. I want to get into it." But they haven't actually done it yet and made that leap. So we thought, 'Hey, let's help people by leveraging what we know, what we've seen by talking hundreds of property managers and my own experience in starting a property management company, let's put all of that into a course that people can have access to, and that way it'll help you kind of get things off on the right foot.' [00:11:47] Jason: So in our DoorGrow code, a lot of. At the very earliest stage, we call those dreamers. These are people that have this dream of starting a business and we call them fantasy belts. You know, we have this belt system, so they're not even a white belt yet. When you're in that dreamer or that fantasy stage, a lot of times we are very good at looking at all the upside, and we're very good at ignoring the difficulties or the downside. And so there are a lot of potential pitfalls and mistakes that they make when getting started. and the biggest challenge usually getting started is just taking action to actually get the business going, and they get caught up on wasting a lot of time on stuff that doesn't really matter when the only thing that really matters is getting your first client, right? That first door is the hardest. And so our program is focused on helping you get that first third party door as quick as possible, getting the right things in place, that you need systems in place. And then we even have some upsells or upgrades in the program, so you can get a website and some of these other add-ons that you might want in starting your business. Let's talk about what the program costs.  [00:12:54] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about it. So the monthly investment for foundations is only $297 a month. And we price it this way because some people, it might take only a couple months to get through and some people might kind of hang out here for quite a while. So sometimes we see people really go through things like we have clients in our program. They go through things super quickly. They're rapid implementers. They get the knowledge that they need and then they just implement, move forward. And if that's you, then you can get through this really quickly. You might only be in there for a few months and at that point you might qualify for our mastermind if you need a little bit more time because. You maybe have another job or you've got, you know, other things that are requiring your attention. So you want to be able to do this so that you don't miss out on the opportunity, but you can't fully dedicate yourself to it, then that's okay too. It might take you a little bit longer, so it's only $297 a month. And that way as long as it takes you or as quickly as you get through it you still get all of that information and you can kind of work at your own pace.  [00:14:06] Jason: Cool. Let's talk about what you get with this program. So first you get access to the Foundation's training in DoorGrow Academy, which is going to help you make a lot of the right moves in getting this started. You also get a ticket to DoorGrow Live, which is easily worth the value of, you know, probably several months of paying for this program. But you get a ticket to DoorGrow Live, you get to attend in person, connect with other property managers, maybe make some connections, a friend or two, maybe find a mentor. And we've got some really great mastermind members in that, that are always coming to those events. You get access to DoorGrow CRM. So this is a tool that's going to help you to be able to keep track of potential deals and leads and to be able to move those forward more easily. And it has phone calling and texting and a lot of cool features. So DoorGrow CRM. [00:15:00] Sarah: Branding pages, automation, all that kind of good stuff.  [00:15:03] Jason: So you get access to that and then we have a growth strategy that we teach in this as well. That's perfect and ideal for startups that we call product research interviews so that you can go out and have a reason to talk to investors or people that can connect you to investors and how to leverage that and how to have the right conversation. We give you the scripts, everything so that you can use this tactic to get your first clients, which are the most difficult to get. And if you do these product research interviews and you do them correctly, you'll get some clients. And this is how we actually use this strategy to start our mastermind and several other programs that we've had at DoorGrow is this strategy of product research interviews, which gives you an excuse to talk to somebody. Sometimes I call this the Trojan horse to selling, but basically you're interviewing people and able to then convert them into clients.  [00:15:58] And that can be really effective for startups because it's also going to teach you, by doing these interviews, you're going to learn the language and the objections and the pain and the pleasure, all the stuff you need to understand in order to sell effectively to clients. So this is going to help you collapse time on selling to clients so that you will be able to sell as effectively, or maybe more so than some people that have been in the industry or at this game for a long time. There's some knowledge that we need to collapse time on, and this is one of the strategies that will help with that. We also have a upsell to where you can, if you want a logo and you want a website, you can pay a little extra to get access to our team to do those things for you. We're the world's leading property management, branding and design agency, we've rebranded more companies than anybody else. Period. Hundreds. And we can help you with making sure you don't make some significant mistakes on the brand, which can cost you a lot of money in the long run. And I think that's about it, right?  [00:16:59] Sarah: Oh, they do the masterclass too? They get access to the masterclass.  [00:17:02] Jason: Oh. We also have a masterclass that we do once a month where we do a cool training on something related to helping you grow and scale your property management business. Trainings in the past that we've done, you will have access to is we did a training on creating the ideal pitch deck, how to create a really good pitch deck to increase your close rate. We did a training on the three systems you need in order to make your business infinitely scalable so you can scale quickly. And any others? We've done some others. We just did your priorities. We did, yeah. We just did a training on increasing your profitability by changing the priorities in the business. Stuff like this.  [00:17:39] So, yeah. So the Foundation's program is a really great stepping stone to enable you to get the funds and get in gear so that you can join our Mastermind. Now, if you've already got the funds, maybe you've got a healthy brokerage, we would recommend you start with our lite version of the Mastermind, and that would be a much better program to be in because it includes the foundation stuff, but then you get coaching and we take things to the next level. You get our more advanced growth strategies, and we do a full rapid revamp on your business, which includes the branding, the website, all that stuff's included. Based on the price points for those things, those upsells being included, it makes it a no-brainer you should do the lite version of the Mastermind, because you'll probably save money that way. So you'll definitely save money that way. Yeah, we would recommend that.  [00:18:31] Program is a one year program or a 12 month commitment, and if you're 200 doors + maybe $20k revenue and plus, then you probably are at a point now where you know how to add doors. Your business probably has a team, you're probably ready for our super system level of the Mastermind and that would be the that next level that we would recommend for those of you that are 200 plus. At least a hundred doors, but maybe 20 K in revenue, plus maybe to be in that level. So depending on what you need and where you're at, we can help figure out what do you need most and how can we best help you? So, yeah. Cool. So if you're thinking about getting into property management, my usual joke is, If you're considering it is, do you want us to talk you into it or do you want us to talk you out of it? because we can do either one. So reach out to us and we can help you with that. Anything else that we should say?  [00:19:24] If you are interested in talking to us, you are struggling in your property management business. You are wanting to take things to the next level. You really haven't grown much or significantly over the last year. Let us inject a little bit of juice and rocket fuel into your business and get you to that next level. We're really good at that. Reach out to us at doorgrow.com and join our free Facebook community. We have some free gifts and we will help funnel you through to working with us as a client. If you need a little time to be nurtured, go to DoorGrowClub.com. We have a lot of great stuff, free content. You get access to some of our master classes and the goal is to convince you that we know what we're doing and to get you to the point where you're working with us as a client. And we'd love to see you in there. So, and that's it, right? And you'll get some free gifts for joining. Until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.  [00:20:12] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:20:39] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Miriam Schulman, my guest today, is an artist, author and host of The Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her signature coaching program, The Artist Incubator, teaches artists go from so-so sales to sold-out collections. After witnessing 9/11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist. Featured in major publications including Forbes, The New York Times, Where Women Create, Art of Man, and Art Journaling magazine. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's “Parenthood” and the Amazon series “Hunters” with Al Pacino. NOW, Her book with HarperCollins Leadership, Artpreneur, has been released in JANUARY 2023. In today's episode, Miriam and I talk about: The definition of art Why creative artists struggle most with marketing How embracing your inner weirdo and honoring what comes easy for you Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists About Miriam's love for email marketing Why art matters And so much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more@humane.marketing slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:31] Hi, friends. Welcome back. Happy Spring. Today's conversation fits under the P of product, and if you're irregular here, as always, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here, big warm, welcome. Uh, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one. [00:02:53] Marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of [00:03:00] marketing@humane.marketing slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. It's kind of the foundation of your business and your market. [00:03:17] So today I'm talking to New York based Miriam Schulman about making art your product. I'll tell you more about Miriam in just a second, but first I want to give you an update about the Humane Marketing Circle, our community. Um, I wanna tell you that bringing in in a young community facilitator was one of the best moves I've ever made. [00:03:40] You know how it is. You have to invest in something in order for it to grow, but investing at the stage where you know the income is just not there yet. It is always scary, but. My gut was telling me, you know, this is the right thing to do and I'm just so excited to [00:04:00] be working with Eddie now, um, who's our community facilitator and, and carer and, uh, net weaver, that's how he, uh, refers, um, to himself as. [00:04:11] So besides adding a second monthly call that's hosted by three of our ambassadors, we, uh, have also transitioned in January to a new online platform. Uh, it's on Cajabi not Mighty Network, and we're really loving it. It feels like Cajabi is kind. You know, is, is one of us, it feels like us, not perfect, but very playful and kind. [00:04:39] It's kind of like, I think of it as the little sister of Mighty Networks with big dreams. And so after every call, Eddie, um, is giving us a challenge to complete. So either something that deepens our connection with other members. Because that's a big priority for us, is [00:05:00] that members are interconnected. [00:05:02] That's the definition of a community, right. So, uh, Eddie helps us with that and puts a challenge up on our, uh, cajabi. We call it our water hole, our place, you know. Kind of nicer image than just a water cooler. So we call it our water hole. Uh, the place where animals in Africa get together in the morning and drink. [00:05:24] So, um, he puts a challenge up there and helps us, uh, connect with each other. Or it might also be a, a challenge that helps us with our marketing and our. Business. So, um, yeah, if you've been thinking about joining for a while now is really a good time because it's time. In May I'll be doubling the monthly rates. [00:05:47] Uh, besides the monthly calls and the active online community, you also get one live 90 minute workshop on a marketing or business topic, as well as all the recording. And we will soon [00:06:00] also probably be, be adding a third call per month. So yeah, I feel like stepping into my personal power and it's, it's time to raise the, the rates, but there is still time to join us at the current monthly rate, which is $37 per month. [00:06:17] So have a look at the details at humane.marketing/circle and also look for the circle inaction link, uh, on that page. On that circle in action page, you'll see some excerpts from our calls and testimonials and all of that, um, kind of real behind the scenes info. Thanks so much for checking that out. All right, Miriam Schulman. [00:06:44] My guest today is an artist, author, and host of the Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her [00:07:00] signature coaching program, the artist incubator teaches artists to go from so, so sales to sold out collections. [00:07:09] After witnessing nine 11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist featured in major publications including Forbes, the New York Times where women create Art of man and art Journaling. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's Parenthood ND Amazon Series, hunter Hunters with Al Pacino, and now her book with Harper Collins Leadership Art Printer has been released in January, 2023. [00:07:42] In this episode, we talk about the definition of art and how art may not just be what we think it is, uh, why creative artists struggle most with marketing and what to do about it, how embracing your inner weirdo [00:08:00] and honoring what comes easy for you. Frees you up and actually lets you do the marketing, uh, that is aligned with you. [00:08:09] Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists and what to do instead about Miriam's love for email marketing, why art matters and so much more. So let's dive in and talk to Miriam about making art your product. [00:08:28] Hey, Miriam, so good to speak to you today. I can't wait for this conversation about art. [00:08:35] Miriam: Well, thanks so much for having me, Sarah. It's, it's an honor to [00:08:38] Sarah: be here. Thank you. So I was just, we were just recording an episode for your podcast and, and now, um, you know, I'm on the other side of the mic and I'm excited to Yeah. [00:08:50] To kind of pick your brain, uh, around art and entrepreneurship because as we just discussed offline, they have a lot to do with each other and it really [00:09:00] depends how you define art. And so I think maybe that's a good place for us to start. Why don't you. Tell our listeners how you define art. Yeah, that's [00:09:11] Miriam: a, that's a great question. [00:09:13] Um, so my book is Entrepreneur, but the truth is, in the way we're gonna define art, every entrepreneur is an art preneur and vice versa. So, when I started writing the book, it's not, it was very, it had to be very clear. This is not just for visual. And it's not. And then we made the definition very broad. [00:09:35] Could be your art, could be writing, it could be um, music, it could be dance, it can be ceramics, it can be fashion. But once you make that definition, definition so broad, your art really is whatever product that you're producing. And so all I'm doing in this book is teaching people who cons. Don't believe that [00:10:00] business lessons apply to them. [00:10:01] I'm showing them. Mm, yes, they do. But the thing is, there's a lot of people who don't define themselves as artists who maybe look at marketing advice and they're sitting there if their arms crossing, oh, that doesn't work in my industry, or, that doesn't apply to me when actually it does. [00:10:16] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I I I was just gonna say, like, what, when I was thinking, when I, I was preparing for the episode and I'm like, well, art and marketing. [00:10:27] It's not usually a good marriage, right? People are who are artists, they're like, yeah, that's not for me. Or, or maybe they do wonder, well how do I sell my art? But what they see out there, they always feel like that doesn't apply to me. And so you're saying the same thing. That's what you're seeing usually [00:10:49] Miriam intro: from artists. [00:10:50] Why is that? Well, you know what, I, I get a lot of pushback cuz I, I like to say, you know, anybody. With a, who wants this can do it. [00:11:00] Anyone with a dream can do it. And so what the pushback I get is, yeah, but what about talent? Mm-hmm. And here's the truth, Sarah. Marketing trump's talent every single time we've all seen, um, not so good artists. [00:11:17] Succeed or you know, ones where like, huh, you know, we all seen that. And the same thing is true in, in business marketing is gonna trump every single time. Like the, you know, if you don't, people don't know about you, they can't buy your product or service. [00:11:34] Sarah: Right. It's, it's that just saying, you know, you stay the best kept secret. [00:11:39] It's like, yeah, you're really good, but nobody knows about [00:11:41] Miriam: you. Exactly. Exactly. So, and there's a lot of examples in the art world. So there's this, uh, American artist. Is he, he may not be American. Damien Hurst, is he American or is he from London? Okay. You don't, it doesn't matter cuz you don't know who he is. [00:11:56] It's fine. Um, he sold [00:12:00] a shark in formaldehyde for like a million dollars. Now is that talent? You know, it's like, I don't think so. So that is just a marketing stunt and people who are creating, um, like NFTs, like there was this guy who made this huge gold cube and put it in, uh, central Park to sell as an N F T. [00:12:22] Was, is that talent? No. It's a big marketing stunt, right? So, [00:12:29] Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think then that creative entrepreneurs struggle most with, uh, um, marketing or, or what part of the marketing do they struggle with? [00:12:42] Miriam: Yeah. A a lot of it is is the mythology for artists in particular. There is that whole idea of they, they're taught you can't sell out or like, you're not a true artist if you are trying to market, which is complete BS because we have a [00:13:00] history going back to Michelangelo, where he was very much interested in the commercial side of things. [00:13:06] I mean, he's not just pa uh, sculpting and painting whatever he felt like. He didn't wanna paint the Sistine Chapel, but the Pope said, yes you do. Here's the money I'm gonna pay you. So he, he did projects for monetary reasons, so it's not a sellout to create art that's marketable that the, the market wants. [00:13:26] So that is a big thing that holds people back. But I also see. And Sarah, tell me if you see this too for, for women in particular who are socialized and, and I don't mean only some women are socialized this way. I think all of us women are socialized this way. We're socialized to play small, to not desire money, sex and power. [00:13:50] I think it's, that's probably more true in the US with the, because of the tradition of Puritanism, this is how our country was founded by. Though [00:14:00] that very conservative religion, so Right. Um, not to play small, and whether you're looking at images of thin women, the, the message that women are getting is not to take up space. [00:14:13] Mm-hmm. And that it's wrong to want money. So that plays a significant role because people will continue to sabotage themselves if they don't believe that it's okay. To desire money and success and to play role a bit a role and be visible and be big. So that is gonna sabotage people if they're trying to stay quiet and small when they have, and, and also be visible at the same time. [00:14:43] It just, they don't work together. [00:14:45] Sarah: Yeah, I hear you. That I'm sure there's a, there's something on that belief level, right? Um, I also think it's like, so. Right. Like I often talk about the right brain and the left brain. So I really [00:15:00] also think like creative's brains are wired differently and they're, um, you know, there's so much in the creativity that when they are then seeing, uh, you know, marketing advice that is very structured and follow steps and, and they're like, this is how you do it. [00:15:19] That's when they get turned off. They're like, no, but I wanna. Me, I just wanna, you know, it's kind of like almost rebellious, maybe. Artists seem to be more [00:15:29] Miriam: rebellious in a way. Yeah, I I, I can see why you would say that. I think for, for, at least for me personally, I found a lot of the marketing advice out there, a turnoff, because it was coming f like it was very bro marketer. [00:15:43] It was like, okay. Right. Exactly. You know, these very. Um, hustle style, whereas the best marketing in the world is being your true, authentic sell, right? [00:15:54] Sarah: Yeah. So not in your book, you have this line, embrace your inner weirdo, right? [00:16:00] Yeah. So tell us more about that. What you, what you mean by that. Okay, [00:16:04] Miriam: so the word weird, the original definition comes from Scotland, and it meant fate or destiny. [00:16:11] And then you may recall in Macbeth there were the three witches who were called the weird sisters. So then the meaning meant something associated more with faith, the supernatural. And as time went on and the supernatural became vilified, The word weird took on that negative connotation. So to be weird is really to embrace your destiny. [00:16:39] To embrace what's really special about you. So I, I say love your inner weirdo and be a weirdo in the most affectionate way possible. [00:16:48] Sarah: Hmm, yeah. You also say, um, like one of the examples you mentioned in that chapter is share your values and. You know, that's a [00:17:00] huge part of humane marketing as well. It's like, share your worldview. [00:17:04] Share what matters to you. People don't typically see that as marketing. They always think, maybe especially artists, they think, oh, you have to talk about, you know, this art piece or this book. I've written a book and now I have to constantly talk about this book. Not true. If you share your worldview and your values, that is part of your marketing. [00:17:28] Miriam: Oh, for sure. So there are a lot of artists who are afraid of speaking out. So I live in the US we have very divisive politics, and they're worried of losing business if they have. One point of view and they express a view that me, other people might get them upset. So for me, I'm very progressive. I have a lot of liberal views. [00:17:55] I'm not worried about alienating people who are [00:18:00] conservative. Yeah, I may alienate some people. There are some diehard conservatives though, who like I've had some words with and they're still following me. But people respect that more. And what happens if you don't share your values, they're gonna assume. [00:18:15] So right before we hit record, Sarah was asking me, so you just had an election, what do you think? And I don't know if you were like trying to see where I was at on that political [00:18:25] Sarah: No, I knew from reading the book, I knew. Okay, right. [00:18:27] Miriam: You read my book. But, but let's pretend you didn't now. And I said, oh, I, you know, and I gave a very witchy, rashy response. [00:18:34] You, you may as assume, you might assume that I don't care about politics when, meanwhile, I care very deeply about the unraveling of, of women's rights and what I see happening. So it's important to dive deep into that. I was very impressed Billy Eilish, um, went on record, uh, on Instagram, telling people to vote and why this was important. [00:18:58] Yeah. Other people [00:19:00] say vote, but only if you agree with me. You know? But, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's really nice to see some people who have big platforms not being afraid of alienating people and the ones who are very big on all parts of the political spectrum. Are not afraid of being polarizing because you can love me or hate me, but there is, when you're in business, there is no money in the middle, and when you're trying to please everyone, you're just striving for mediocrity. [00:19:34] Right. [00:19:35] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. Um, I just, I, I follow Guy Kawasaki, uh, you see who he is. Um, he's, he's kind of the, you know, past Apple and then Canva. Um, he's just a spokesperson now, pretty much. And he just really shares his political views and just, I think before the elections he put, he's active on LinkedIn or that's [00:20:00] where I see him. [00:20:00] And he, he was saying, you know, Uh, your influencers, what are they saying right now? Are they saying, you know, go vote and, you know, here's what's really happening because go vote. That's kind of an easy out as well, because that doesn't really share your worldview. That's correct. Um, so he was, you know, being more specific, um, or so, so artie's influencers telling you who to vote for and why it. [00:20:27] Or are they telling you the latest car they bought or you know, which mansion they're staying at and all of that kind of stuff that we're so used to from the bro influencers. Right? Yeah. And I thought that made a lot of sense. That's exactly the worldview that we're interested in and we're not so interested in, you know, the latest car you bought and all of. [00:20:49] Miriam: Yeah. Yeah. And there's actually a very significant, um, population that the data shows, they're called the conscious consumers that they do shop with. They do vote with [00:21:00] their pocketbooks. Of course. Yeah. So they're checking, you know, you know, and they don't all have the same causes that they care about. You know, some people care more about sustainability of a brand when they're shopping, some care more. [00:21:12] Inclusion. I know that when I receive a clothing catalog, if it's all white women, I throw it out now like I'm, you know, they don't care enough to show, have diversity in the catalog. Um, I, I don't shop there. So there is a, a, a large percentage of people who. This is their values matter. And what matters is that the brands are doing it in an authentic way. [00:21:36] Not like, oh, so this is gay Pride week and here's your rainbow smoothie, or whatever, because they people can see through that. It's how you're showing up all year long. That's gonna matter. [00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And the, the reason again, we're bringing this up is, Oftentimes creatives don't realize that that's part of marketing. [00:21:57] Um, that's right. Yeah. And it's, it's not just the, [00:22:00] you know, follow these three steps to market your art. It's, it, it, it's. A whole package. That's the other thing that you mentioned in your book, um, is honor What Comes Easy for You. And I love that. That's kind of like my motto for life, right? Um, and so you have a, a funny gardening story in there. [00:22:19] Uh, would you mind sharing that? I think that's such a good example of, of how that works. Yes, yes. [00:22:25] Miriam: Okay. So I, I live in New York City. I'm staring at a brick wall right now, but we do have a, a farmhouse two hours away. It's in the Catskills in New York. And my husband started a garden, um, when we first moved there, and we, he went to the nursery and he spent. [00:22:42] Oh, I don't know, a couple hundred dollars on plants, like these starter plants. And then when we were at the counter, he just grabbed a couple of seed packets. So the seed packets, we just scattered in the plants. You know, it made a mess in the back of my car with the dirt. I wasn't happy about [00:23:00] that. And we spent a good back breaking afternoon, putting in these starter plants. [00:23:07] Well, a couple, whatever, whatever the time span was later. The seeds were doing really well. It was like Jack and the bean sprout, like all these, like these stalk came up and we had beautiful string beads. The starter plants on the other hands, like all the bugs ate them. So it was like, here's a situation where. [00:23:27] The seed packets were the easy way to go and they actually were the easier the, the best result, whereas this harder, more expensive thing didn't work out as good for as well for us. But we do this a lot in our business where we try to make things so hard and we have something that comes easy for us and we think that couldn't be as valuable. [00:23:46] Right. [00:23:47] Sarah: Yeah. I just love that story, I guess, because I, I also, I'm not a big fan of gardening, but my husband is, and yeah, I would just totally throw some seeds [00:23:56] Miriam: out there. That's right. Well, it was like the sunflowers came from seeds. [00:24:00] The green beans came from seeds. Um, we tried something else this year. I forget what it was, and it was like, yay [00:24:06] Sarah: seeds. [00:24:07] Yeah, exactly. And it's funny how we often. You know, it's kind of a metaphor. Plant a seed, and I love that also for marketing, where you might just have a conversation and you're not actually pushing it and trying to sell them something, but in your head, you know, I just planted a seed, and this might turn into something bigger that you weren't even expecting. [00:24:33] I love the metaphor of seeds as well, so yeah, that's a beautiful metaphor [00:24:38] Miriam: that you, the way you just [00:24:39] Sarah: used it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, another thing that I know that you love is email marketing. So it seems like you really built your business based on email marketing, so, Maybe you, because right now I feel like people are still understanding. [00:24:57] Okay. Yes. Uh, email [00:25:00] marketing is a good strategy, especially with all the talk about social media going down the tubes and Twitter disappearing and all of that. So how does one start an email list today? Um, you know, starting out as a creative, how do you actually get people's attention? Because I do feel like. [00:25:22] A lot out there. And I know that my people, they're like, yeah, but there's so much also crap out there that I feel like I give my email and I get this one pager that is not even valuable. Um, so what would you say, what would you tell creatives how to get started? [00:25:40] Miriam: Well, let me just start with that last example you gave just because you had a, you meaning the listener had a bad experience with somebody's Jan. [00:25:49] Email doesn't mean you have to emulate that. Right. You be that bright spot in someone's email where they look forward to opening your emails or they love the [00:26:00] freebies that you're sending them. You, you be, you, you make a, you can, you're the one who has control over that and can make a difference. Right. [00:26:07] One thing I like to tell my clients, or what I talk about in the book is emails are really love letters to your audience. Mm-hmm. And that is the best way to nurture a relationship. [00:26:18] Sarah: Right, so, so when you work with clients, when they ask you, well, so how, what do I create? You have some great examples of what creatives created as a download, as a free [00:26:33] Miriam: Yes. [00:26:34] This, this was a very important chapter for my audience because there is so much advice out there for people who are weight loss coaches. You just give them a cheat sheet or a menu and they like, I have no idea what it is that they want, and they come up with things. That really have nothing to do with what they're ultimately selling. [00:26:55] Like I'll see artists have screensavers or something. It's like, yeah, but you're not [00:27:00] selling that. So that is not, and also people don't want your screensaver. They want their kitty as their screensaver or their kid or their doc. So, The, the things are pe again, this is where people make it way too hard for themselves. [00:27:13] So for, for my audience who are selling products, one of the best things to give away is just early access. So you don't even have to create something. And this does work. So a good example of this is in, in April when the war first br, when the war first broke out in March and then Easter in April that year. [00:27:34] Uh, Stanski eggs, which are Ukrainian eggs, I don't know if you you've seen them, but they're very intricate, intricately painted eggs. This was cut out of the preview book that you got, by the way. I think we put it back in for the final version. It doesn't [00:27:51] Sarah: be, you see? Yeah. So there, I thought you were tricking me, but No, [00:27:54] Miriam: no, no, no. [00:27:55] Yeah, so we, we had it in, we cut it out, we put it back in. [00:28:00] So there, there was this artist creating eggs and she sells them for over $200. And they're, they're absolutely gorgeous. These very intricate, and they're made by, um, using I think like a toothpick and putting boutique on to make these fine lines and doing these, the dipping process. [00:28:21] So she was completely sold out at these prices. Now people are gonna wanna join her email list just to find out when they come back in stock. Wow. So people who are creating one of a kind things, this is something that is a reason. If you're selling a service like a class, it's re, it's a reason enough that people wanna be on the wait list when, when it opens up. [00:28:44] So that's like the easiest place to go. Uh, if for, for the visual artists out there, I love the giving them a post, people, giving people a postcard with your art on it. That does require. The person giving you their email [00:29:00] address to also give their postal address, which is more of a commitment, but that means they're more serious about your art. [00:29:06] And again, everything that you're giving as your lead magnet needs to be a free taste of whatever it is that they're ultimately gonna buy. Hmm. So that's why I said a screensaver doesn't work. Um, artists who give away coloring pages, that only works if you're selling a coloring book if you're trying to sell something else. [00:29:26] Not a great idea. Yeah. [00:29:28] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Um, I'm just trying to figure out how, you know, the, the Etsy website, how does that play into the whole I'm an artist and I'm selling my art because Etsy, it's, its stand. Website and I see a lot of creatives putting their art up there, but, but then how would they, yeah. How would. [00:29:53] Still build an email list and then say, yes, absolutely. It's now available on Etsy. Yes. Something like that. Okay. [00:29:58] Miriam: Yeah, so that, [00:30:00] that is why I encourage clients to build their own website because if you're gonna have to drive traffic anyway, you might as well drive it to your own site. Yeah. The artists who do well in Etsy are driving traffic fair. [00:30:16] Yeah. And then Sarah, do you want me to circle back to the lead magnet thing? Because we can also discuss what lead magnets work? Well, if you're not a visual artist, like what I use in my own business, please. Okay. Yep. Let's do that. So, of course there's the free masterclass, but one thing that I, I've done that works really well is transcribing the masterclass and turning that into an e. [00:30:37] Without the sales pitch, but basically giving the same exact content. So think about all the different content that you're giving them. How can you repackage it and give the same experience? Whether that is a masterclass, some people prefer to read the book, right? You know, like whether it's Terry Potter or the movie. [00:30:55] Like some people rather read the book than see the movie. Right. So, [00:31:00] yeah, to give them different experiences. Yeah, [00:31:03] Sarah: I like that. And then I guess, you know, for. I don't know if you've set that up, but the free chapter for the book is usually what you do when you have a book. Have you set that up? I haven't [00:31:15] Miriam: set that up yet, but I probably should. [00:31:16] You should. Yeah. I know I probably should. I have to talk to my, uh, yeah, my [00:31:21] Sarah: publisher about that. Yeah. I, I feel like people, you know, they, they like, uh, uh, free down download of the first chapter and then decide of course on Amazon. Usually you can kind of see the first couple of pages, but it's not, it's not the whole chapter usually. [00:31:36] Yeah, so it's helpful too. You [00:31:38] Miriam: wanna hook them in. So yeah. What is it that you can give away that will hook them in and want more of what you got? [00:31:43] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh, just yesterday in, in my Humane Marketing Circle community, we talked about actually having freebies without getting people's email, there seems to be a trend [00:32:00] of. [00:32:01] B, because people kind of feel like, well, it's not really free if I have to give my email. And so my people, they're like, oh, I want them in my world, but I don't. I want to have options. I want to have maybe one thing that they can just download for free and then come back for more. What do you think about this strategy? [00:32:24] Miriam intro: Well, you're taking a big chance that they're not gonna ever come back again. It's kind of like a one night stand. [00:32:31] Sarah: Yes. Like it, but it could be, you're so good on this one night stand since we're going with this example, that they wanna come back. Right. Because [00:32:41] Miriam: they're like, they're really, that's the problem that I see with, with TikTok. [00:32:45] It's like the death of and, and reels on Instagram too, but, but we'll just talk about TikTok. It's the death of the scroll. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, and I know entrepreneurs are spending a tremendous amount of time creating content for. [00:33:00] TikTok, social media and social. But, but especially those videos, they take a lot of time. [00:33:04] Now, if you've been on the consuming end of those videos, you know that before you get to that end of that video, they're already making you push up to the next thing. Mm-hmm. So I found that I can have thousands of views on, on a reel with nobody going to my profile. And I had an artist who created a viral reel. [00:33:24] She got 45 thou, 45,000 views without. Um, like maybe a couple followers, but nobody going to our website cuz you can see the stats. Now with TikTok, the followers there are completely meaningless. You can have, um, you can follow someone and never ever see their content ever again. So somebody who has millions of followers, that's not a relationship with millions of people. [00:33:48] It's kind of a meaningless metric, right? I would be very wary of trying to build a relationship where you can't, you're not in [00:34:00] control of getting in touch with them ever again. Hmm. Yeah. [00:34:03] Sarah: Okay. It's interesting, uh, and I totally agree with the, with social media, people spend so much time on there and oftentimes entrepreneurs are exhausted and, and, you know, to go back to the do what's easy, well, social media nowadays is not easy anymore. [00:34:21] No. It's not really want to get something out of it. So, um, I think it's important to, to say that not enough people. You know, say the truth, how it is, and it's not easy to build a following or, or nevermind a following, just a business, uh, on social media today. So in your opinion then, what's the best way, where would a, a creative, uh, an artist, an entrepreneur start when they're just starting out their. [00:34:51] Miriam: Well, bill, bill, that email list, and I wanna circle back to a question you did ask, but I don't think I really answered. It's like, well, how and where do you start? Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] And there are only three ways to build your audience. There is what I call your universe. So your universe is anyone you come into contact with, whether it's in person or online. [00:35:13] Then there are other people's univers. So that could be like what we're doing now. Sarah, I'm on your podcast. You came on mine. Right. So that's basically, other people call it earned press, earned publicity. Mm-hmm. And then, which is free. And the third category is paid publicity. Mm-hmm. Or paid platform. So those are, there's, those are the three ways. [00:35:39] And they're really, I don't think there is any other way other than those three areas your platform. Other people's platforms and rented platforms. Mm. Yeah. [00:35:49] Sarah: I, I like that. It, I mean, I know that, but it, explaining it this way, it feels like, okay, if you're just starting out, You gotta start in your [00:36:00] own universe. [00:36:01] Yes. Cause you don't have the credibility yet to go, or you can start with the paid, but that's also correct. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you don't really have the credibility yet to go out there and say, okay, can I be on your podcast? Or can that co Or not just credibility, but maybe also confidence. [00:36:19] Miriam intro: Well, actually, let me. [00:36:21] Circle back so you can get, um, free, free press. And I did that even in the very beginning. But you need to start local. Local. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you can't jump, jump the ladder. It's like, it'd be great to be on Oprah. Right. But yeah, there's different levels. Exactly. Like there's things like, you know, I would love Brene Brown to invite me to her podcast, but you know, [00:36:45] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:36:46] It, yeah, it just kind of goes the same with anything in life. It's like, oh, am I on this level or Yeah. Am I evolving to future levels? Yeah. [00:36:56] Miriam intro: And, and that's why we should talk about something, which I don't think I talk about in the book at all, but [00:37:00] who knows? Maybe if I write another book, who knows. Um, so that's why I spend so much time building what I call relationship capital, because the way to get the. [00:37:12] To expand outside of your universe and get some of those earned opportunities is by building relationships, which is why joining communities like yours, Sarah, is so important. Like those relationships, yeah. Can help you. And I never have regretted investing in paid programs, paid masterminds, because those networks have been hugely. [00:37:36] Yeah, [00:37:37] Sarah: don't you agree? Oh yeah, totally. So much so that, you know, the partnership is the seventh p of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Uh, because I really think partnership is the way to, to market and, and, you know, collaborate with others. And, and what you just said as well is there's different levels within partnerships as. [00:37:59] [00:38:00] There's the free levels, which is peers, and then there's the paid levels, which is mentors and coaches, which again, it's just like these unwritten rules. You probably can't go to, you know, ask, uh, Brene Brown if she would, you know, feature you or something because there hasn't been a paid relationship for some things. [00:38:21] There just needs to be a paid relationship for them to pay attention to you. You know, they have so many people they could be paying attention to. [00:38:30] Miriam: Yeah. And, and one thing that I think is very important, especially now with um, let's just say it like it is the demise of, of easy social media, right? Is I think it is a very important to have your own platform because it's one thing to, uh, to, to get media. [00:38:49] But it's much better if you are the media. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you have a YouTube channel, if you have a podcast, and by the way, blogs are coming back. I have been reading people's [00:39:00] blogs posted on in. LinkedIn. That seems to be the new thing. Have you noticed that too? That trend? Everyone's like running to LinkedIn lately. [00:39:06] Sarah: Oh yeah. No. I've been on LinkedIn for, for years like that. [00:39:11] Miriam: I've been there, but I haven't been like consuming the way I started to. It's like, well that's a good article. Like as people are actually putting some quality things there. Yeah, so that's be be the media. If you want opportunities, give opportunities. [00:39:25] Mm-hmm. People like, if you are one of Sarah's coaching clients, invite her to your platform. Right. Am I putting you on the spot? Is this gonna be edited? [00:39:37] Sarah: N no, no, this is all good. No, we're not editing the, well, we are editing the, but I'm not cutting anything out. Okay. Cause this is, this is a Cuban conversation, so, yeah. [00:39:47] Yeah. No. [00:39:48] Miriam: So lemme, instead of putting you on a spot, I'll just talk about myself. So when I joined Masterminds and I started a podcast, I had my, my first guess was my business coach, right? Then I [00:40:00] could say to my business coach's friends who were like, kind of jumping a level here. Mm-hmm. You know, they weren't my level, they were my business coach's level. [00:40:07] Right. Hey, Jason Van Orden was a guest on my show and I'd love to have you on as well. So now this is already giving me credibility because my business coach. Said yes to me on my podcast, which was an easy yes for me. So now somebody says, oh, well if Jason was on it, I'll do on it. And then I went to the third person, Hey, Jason was on it and such and such was on it. [00:40:29] Would you like to come on it too? So it's like, this is how we build that ladder of credibility is starting with your own network, starting with peers. And then you can add, just go up those, uh, go up that ladder with baby steps. Yeah, [00:40:45] Sarah: that's so. I feel like you, you just said blogs are coming back and I, I was also thinking art is come, coming back. [00:40:55] I really feel like, you know? Yeah. So, so maybe the question would [00:41:00] be like, why does art matter now more than ever going forward? [00:41:06] Miriam: Yeah. Well, because we're going through such an existential crisis in the world, and art is what gives us meaning. [00:41:13] Sarah: Mm-hmm. So good. And, and, and that would've been a nice ending, but I wanna come back to that, to that one point you made when I was on your show about the, you know, in marketing we always talk about these pain points and Oh yeah. [00:41:29] And you have such a good point about. Well, I'll let you explain [00:41:33] Miriam: it. Okay. So this is like, it's not that marketing doesn't apply to creatives. It just may be the way you've been taught. It's not the right way. So we're talking about the bro marketers and a lot of them also they say find the pain point and twist that night. [00:41:49] Exactly. Like if you heard it, that's what, but that's what they say. Yeah. All right. So, but the problem is when you're, when you're selling something that gives people pleasure, like [00:42:00] let's say, I'm the producer of Harry Potter. I'm not gonna market the movie by saying, well, their pain point is their bored. [00:42:08] Watch Harry Potter. It alleviates boredom. You don't do that, right? So, or, or, or what's, what's the pain point of the Oreo cookie? Nothing. We just want it cuz it tastes good. Right? So, And that doesn't mean that your art has to be all rainbows and daisies. Cause there's plenty of art that is dark and goth and emo, and people get a lot of pleasure from that. [00:42:31] But instead of worrying about what people's night sweats are, what their pain points are, what's keeping them up at night, you gotta think what are their wet dreams? What is it that they, they really want, what they really desire? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sell that pleasure. [00:42:49] Sarah: Mm. Yeah. And, and that ties in with why art and pleasure is so important right now is because, you know, who wants to open their email and, and, you [00:43:00] know, Find out how much they suck and how much their life is miserable and because they're not this and that, and not enough. [00:43:07] No. Like, like you said, we're living in a crisis, so we, we want positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement. And I think all the right brainers, that's what they're bringing to society right now. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, do you tell people where they can find your book in, in your website, and all of. [00:43:30] Miriam: Okay, so if you like this conversation, you will also love. Sarah on my podcast, the inspiration plates. I'm not sure who, I don't remember who is coming out first. Me neither. But yeah. But you can find the inspiration plates if I'm, if she's not there yet, just hit that plus sign or the follow sign and you'll get it very soon. [00:43:50] Cuz we had an amazing conversation, which was completely different, I think, than what we talked about today. Mm-hmm. And my book Art is available. There's a lot of [00:44:00] pre-order goodies, so I hope you'll check that out. Art. Dot com. [00:44:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Entrepreneur book all in one word. [00:44:08] Miriam: Yeah, that's, that's the website to, to get the book Or just search Entrepreneur. [00:44:13] But you get bonuses when you go to my page, so there you go. It's all about the, it's all about the freebies. [00:44:19] Sarah: I always have one last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today, Miriam? More this week? Oh, [00:44:25] Miriam: that is such a beautiful question. Did you tell me ahead of time? I would have to answer. [00:44:29] Sarah: No, I did not. [00:44:31] I put you on the spot because we all have to have something that we're [00:44:35] Miriam: grateful for. I, I am very grateful for my family right now. Um, I'm grateful that I have a husband who lets me be weird. Um, I'm grateful for, for my children who don't give me too much angst. They're adults, by the way. And, uh, yeah, I'm very grateful for my family. [00:44:52] Wonderful. [00:44:53] Sarah: Awesome. Thank you so much for [00:44:55] Miriam intro: being. And I'm grateful for, for this opportunity too. Let's just, let's [00:45:00] just say that too. [00:45:01] Sarah: Thank you. If you're an artist or a creative mind, I bet this conversation resonated with you. So do take some time to find out more about Miriam and her work@schulmanart.com and check out her book called The Art Printer. [00:45:19] Wherever you get your books, if you go to schulman art.com/prophet, you'll find, uh, Miriam's, uh, free download. It's called the Artist Profit Plan Guide, and it helps you dig deep to go beyond the starving artist mindset to uncover what's really sabotaging your success. So again, go to schulman art.com/. [00:45:45] And finally, you can also look up her podcast. It's called The Inspiration Place. And if you look for episode 239, that's the uh, show where I talk to Miriam about humane marketing. So again, [00:46:00] look for the Inspiration Place podcast. And if you wanna hear me on her show, that's episode 239. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:46:15] You can find out more at humane.marketing/circle. You find the show notes on this episode@humane.marketing slash 16 one, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. It is my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle mini confidence mini course, as well as my two books. [00:46:41] Marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you [00:47:00] want to see in the. Speak soon.[

Today's conversation fits under the P of People If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. (If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps). So, we're talking about the P of people or H of Humans. Only 5 years ago, if I said ‘People' you probably pictured a room full of people, or you and your clients or you and your friends going for a walk. Today, in the business context, a lot of the People stuff happens online, on Zoom. I've been working online for many years before the pandemic, so it wasn't a big change for me. I remember putting up a bonus free webinar to help teachers get acquinted with Zoom in the early months of the pandemic. Well, now everyone is Zooming. But not everyone does it well. Just the other week I watched a really quite uncomfortable Zoom call (or a teams call in that case) in a corporate setting where only the manager who was talking was on video, everyone else was hiding behind the screen. When he asked questions, there were long uncomfortable silences. I've myself had to really learn and still learning how facilitate groups on Zoom like our Humane Marketing Circle while giving everyone a chance to speak, and still keep the intimacy in breakout rooms. That's why I'm really excited to be able to learn from today's guest, Robbie Samuels. Robbie has been recognized as a networking expert by NPR, PCMA, Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and Inc, and as an expert in virtual event design by JDC Events. As a virtual event design consultant and executive Zoom producer, he helps organizations bring their events online with less stress and greater participant engagement. He is the author of three books, including his latest, ​​"Break Out of Boredom: Low-Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Events.” Since 2016, he has hosted the On the Schmooze podcast and, since March 2020, #NoMoreBadZoom Virtual Happy Hour. In today's episode, Robbie and I talk about: How to host virtual events that feel like we're human How to facilitate bigger groups Create valuable breakout rooms How to make sure everyone gets a turn to speak How to create a feeling of community between participants Best practices to make calls engaging and fun And so much more Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Ep 160 Ep 160 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more@humane.marketing slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:33] Hi, friends. Welcome back. Today's conversation fits under the P of people. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm appreciating you and that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps. Of the Humane Marketing Mandala, and if you're new here, I appreciate you just as much, and maybe you don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the [00:03:00] humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing@humane.marketing slash. [00:03:06] One page, the number one, then the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps and kind of question all your assumptions around them. So we're talking about the P of people or the. Age of humans today, and you know, only five years ago if I said people, you probably pictured their room full of people or you and your clients, or you and your friends going for a walk. [00:03:38] But today, in the business context, a lot of the people stuff happens online on Zoom right now, I've been working online for many. Before the pandemic, so it wasn't a big change for me, but I remember putting up a bonus free webinar to help teachers get acquainted with Zoom in the early months of the pandemic because [00:04:00] none of the teachers knew how to use Zoom. [00:04:02] Of course. So everyone is zooming today, but not everyone does it well. Um, just the other week I watched a really quite uncomfortable zoom call or a teams call in that case, in a corporate setting where. Only the manager who was talking was on video, and everyone else was kind of hiding behind the screen. [00:04:25] And when he asked questions, there were like these long, uncomfortable silences and nobody answered. Not saying that silence is bad, silence is good, but in this case, if everybody's hidden behind their camera, then the poor manager obviously doesn't know what they're doing if they're even still there. So anyway. [00:04:46] Had to really learn, and I'm still learning myself how to facilitate groups on Zoom, like the ones in our humane marketing circle, while giving everyone a chance to speak [00:05:00] and still keep the intimacy in breakout rooms. So, yeah, I learned a lot over the last two years and that's why I'm super excited to be able to learn even more from today's guest, Robbie Samuels. [00:05:14] Robbie is a recognized networking expert and an expert in virtual event design. As a virtual event design consultant and executive Zoom producer, he helps organizations bring their events online with less stress and greater per participant engagement. He's the author of three books, including his latest. [00:05:36] Break out of boredom, low tech solutions for highly engaging Zoom events. Since 2016, he has hosted the Amish Schmooze Podcast and since March, 2020, the no more bad Zoom virtual happy hour. . So in this episode with Robbie, we talked about how to host virtual events that feel like we're [00:06:00] human, how to facilitate bigger groups, how to create valuable breakout rooms, how to make sure everyone gets a turn to speak, how to create a feeling of community between participants. [00:06:14] Best practices to make calls engaging and fun and so much more. As you will probably be able to tell, I really took this kind of like a, a mini coaching session for myself, and again, we're really applying this in our humane marketing circle. It's intimate, it's engaging everybody. Uh, turn or a chance to speak. [00:06:39] So if that's something you are curious about, do have a look at humane.marketing/circle. It's our community of humane marketers or entrepreneurs who want to market their business their way. We meet twice per month in an online setting. Right now it's Zoom, but [00:07:00] we'll actually change over to our own private live room on k. [00:07:05] Have a look at the details at humane.marketing/circle. And with that, let's welcome Robbie. Hey Robbie. So good to see you speak to you today. Yeah, thanks for having me here. Yeah, I'm excited. Uh, it's one of those topics, right, that five years ago we probably wouldn't be sitting on a call together, or at least not for that. [00:07:29] Probably more for networking, uh, because that's, that was your thing in the past or probably still is, but, but yeah, you kind of pivoted with the, with the pandemic and all. But yeah, I, I kind of. Dove right into it. So welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast. I love you. You, I love to have you here. Why don't you take us a little bit into the past, but not too much, because we really wanna talk about, you know, zoom calls, group calls, [00:08:00] facilitation online, and all of that, which is the topic of your latest book as well. [00:08:05] So take us a little bit to the past and then to, to the. [00:08:09] Robbie: Well, Sarah, um, I spent over 10 years before the pandemic working to be recognized as a networking expert with a focus on networking at conferences, and that included writing a, my first book, launching a podcast. , um, creating a group coaching program, writing for Howard Business Review, doing a TEDx talk. [00:08:28] I was poised to be an overnight success 10 years in the making. Uh, my TEDx talk came out January, 2020, and by March, 2020 nobody cared. , it was sort of a, uh, not a very relevant topic to be an expert in around in-person networking because all in-person conferences and events really, Vanished. So I was trying to figure out how to show up and add value, and I wrote nine Ways to Network in a Pandemic as a, as a blog post on March 12th, 2020. [00:08:57] And one of those ways was to host [00:09:00] a virtual happy hour, which I did on March 13th. Unbeknownst to me that really launched a whole new thriving six figure business, uh, with all kinds of new revenue streams and really impacted a lot of other people's. I mean, it impacted my life, but the ripple effect is, has been extraordinary. [00:09:17] And by the end of the year, I was supporting organizations of bringing their events online with less stress and greater participant engagement. And as you mentioned, I am about to release on the three anniversary of that first virtual Happy hour, my third book, which is Break Out of Boredom, low Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Event. [00:09:37] Sarah: Wonderful. Wow, what a comeback. Kudos to you. It must have been quite a dark night of the soul. I, I imagine that just kind of like realizing, oh my God, now what? [00:09:49] Robbie: Well, I mean, I, I accepted what was happening on March 9th because I had been paying attention to the news and mm-hmm. sort of was watching this come starting. [00:09:57] You saw this probably in January, just kinda like, [00:10:00] yeah. I was watching it kind of, kind of encroach our, our shores mm-hmm. and get closer and closer, so, I think I came to terms with it, uh, but I didn't know what to do next, and I don't like feeling that, I mean, I, I'm a person of action, so that feeling of being stuck. [00:10:14] But I was very fortunate because on uh, that Wednesday of that week, which is the 11th, I met with my peer mastermind and they gave me a kick in the pants and said, you don't think of networking as something that only happens in person. You have been building a global network for five years, virtually. [00:10:31] Why don't you go help people? And that got me outta my own way, and that's what led me to. Um, basically that night I started working on the nine ways list and, uh, published it the next day it got, you know, a good response cause it was very timely and I said, okay, I need to do one of these things. And I just looked at the list and it was 8:00 PM on a Thursday night , which is why the event is held five o'clock on a Friday cuz it was the next open spot that I could imagine calling a happy [00:11:00] hour. [00:11:00] And I didn't intend it to be a global network. A global event, but 36 countries have been represented amongst the members. Nice. Who attended I, and I'm still hosting it. Right? I'm still hosting that event. No more bad. zoom.com. Three years later. [00:11:13] Sarah: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's really it. It kind of demonstrates this idea of that you are not. [00:11:21] You know, you're, you're not kind of pushed into a niche, and that's where you are stuck for the rest of your life. There's a common thread to your message, right? And whether it is networking in person or now networking online and doing online meetings, Your concept or your approach to it is still the same? [00:11:41] Uh, it reminds me of my dark night of the soul where I got, you know, into a trademark mess where someone, um, was basically blocking me of using gentle marketing, which was the term I used before. And for like about two weeks, I was stuck a bit longer, Robbie, for about two weeks. I was like, well, now what? [00:11:59] [00:12:00] You know, how, how do I get out of this? And everything, everything I built, the books I published and, and two years of work and all of that. But then I realized, people told me as well, it's, well, it's not about a word. You know, you still have the community, you still have the concept, and, and so it's just mm-hmm. [00:12:17] It's great to hear those stories, I think. Right. For listeners as well to realize, well, you know, you can rebound. and, and start something new and it's still gonna be you and it's still giving you your approach, but, you know, just slightly different topic. So, so yeah, let's talk about this slightly different topic because, uh, as you, I think, uh, in one of the videos I watched from you, you said, you know, at the beginning you didn't even know you had breakout rooms, came with your free Zoom account. [00:12:48] And so yeah, that's how we all felt at the beginning of the pandemic. Been working online for years and years. So I knew Zoom, but it's true that a lot of people had like no idea [00:13:00] how to, you know, for me as well, breakout rooms was not a thing that I was using. So nowadays obviously everybody is zooming or, or teams or whatever they're using. [00:13:10] So how do you s how have you seen this evolve? Like what would you say in general? is the kind of the state of the online meetings now. Mm-hmm. . Do most people use them to their advantage and you know that it's really great. All these Zoom meetings we have, or do you hear kind of the opposite? [00:13:33] Robbie: Well, just to go back to your earlier point, the through line for me is that events are about content and connection. [00:13:39] Right. People were leaving their house and getting on planes to travel to conferences, not just for the information they would learn, but for the people they would meet. Right. And so when events became synonymous with the virtual events, I knew we needed to figure out a way to make that possible virtually. [00:13:57] Now, prior to the pandemic, An [00:14:00] online program, which was typically a webinar platform where you couldn't see participants and participants couldn't see each other. Right. It was 45 minutes of death by PowerPoint, followed by ineffectual Q and A on moderating chat . Oh God. Yeah. So I think we've come a long way in what our expectations are, but I also think it depends on the industry. [00:14:19] Because I still know, you know, I've, I've been invited to do some programming virtually for the employee resource group of like a bank or a law firm or financial sector. And like, they tend to be blown away by what I'm doing because they're using it in a very, Minimalist approach to how they use whatever platform they're using. [00:14:42] They're just like turning on their camera and that's it. And [00:14:46] Sarah: if that, because I've assisted to some of the meetings my husband has to kind of survive through and yeah, nobody is on camera like. . [00:14:55] Robbie: That's just it. So, so I think that it really is a range. I can't answer like one way, but I [00:15:00] also don't focus personally on corporate space or the workforce. [00:15:03] Mm-hmm. , I'm my book and my approach is really focusing on the presenters who have between 60 and 90 minutes to offer value to a one-time audience. now, and a lot of this can be therefore applied if you are teaching, uh, a course or a class, this is, you know, or even like a, a weekly team meeting, you can apply a lot of this to that. [00:15:25] But I think there's, there's a few more restrictions. So, for instance, I don't recommend using third party. Tools like Mentee Meter and Jamboard, which I love. But if you only have 60, 75, 90 minutes, you might lose people because if they don't, if they're not familiar and you don't know if they're familiar cuz you don't know the audience super well, you might lose them. [00:15:45] And, and if, if it's about engagement, you're gonna get 70 to 90% of people to responding to a Zoom poll. And you might get 30 to 50% actually answering. , one of these third party polls. Mm-hmm. . And so [00:16:00] yes, it's fancy, yes, it's cool , but if the end result is fewer people actually taking action and people feeling a little bit confused about something, that's not where we want people to be. [00:16:11] So I also, I really focus a lot in the book and in the work that I do on some principles around purpose first design and also quality facilitation. So I'm, I'm specifically focusing on the Zoom. As far as the technology, but those other pieces around facilitation and purpose first design are applicable to any medium, including in person. [00:16:36] Mm-hmm. . So I think there's a strong Venn diagram because I also do in-person event design consulting, and I've been doing that a long time. And then back to doing that again now that people are backed in person. So to me there's a big overlap. How you design an in-person workshop or presentation for 90 minutes and online, but then there's the outliers that you have to consider for both. [00:16:58] So I think that there's a lot of [00:17:00] potential. I've done incredible programming. I've got some great stories in the book about some really cool outcomes we've achieved by bringing people together across geographies to have really in depth conversations about important topics. . I also think that people's tolerance for the sort of boring approach, , is they really don't have any, like, I think people are zoomed out and zoom fatigue. [00:17:24] That's why I call it breakout of boredom. And, and by, by the way, breakout rooms, I went from not knowing I had access to, you know, , I dunno, my book's like 60 some odd thousand words and like 10,000 words. Almost 20% is about breakout rooms. So, [00:17:40] Sarah: yeah. So let's go there. Um, I, I wanna really have you walk us through kind of some of these, you know, yes, they're technicalities, but I think the way you explain them is always comes back to purpose. [00:17:54] You know, like what is. , what's the common [00:18:00] purpose for, uh, us to be on this call? That's how I understood it, um, when I went through this checklist that you'll share with us at the end. So let's start with the waiting room, right? Um, that's usually our first experience when we go on to a Zoom meeting. So how, if we are, if my listeners are hosting a group, uh, zoom. [00:18:24] what are some of the things that can be done? Let's just take Zoom as an example, can be done to already kind of give people this feeling of I belong, or this is, I'm a, I'm on in the right group here. Sure. Like what [00:18:39] Robbie: can we do? Well, for starters, if you're having a group meeting, stop using your personal meeting room because, uh, you, if you write, if you create a meeting, a specific meeting for. [00:18:53] Group, then the name of that meeting will be what appears in the waiting room. Um, so that'll assure people. But you can [00:19:00] also have different settings. So if you use a different link, you could set it so that participants are muted upon entry. Mm-hmm. . Now for why one-on-one calls, I do use my personal meeting ID and I don't mute people because if it's just two of us, I, I don't need you to be muted. [00:19:18] It's actually kind of an inconvenience for you to be. Right, because people start talking and I have to point out to them like, don't forget to unmute . Yeah, the usual, you're muted . Yeah. So then the other thing I would say for waiting rooms, you can customize it beyond that. And there's a bunch of different options. [00:19:33] A lot of what I'm gonna be sharing is under zoom.us, and then you go to settings, which is on the left side menu, and you can just start from the top. And actually really close to the top is waiting rooms. So there's some really cool customi customization, uh, including you can embed a video, you can put an image, you can put text. [00:19:50] Um, I sometimes have texts just says, , take a breath. You know, like, yeah. Take a, take a moment to yourself. Mm-hmm. before you come in. Yeah. But you need [00:20:00] to know that whatever you put for your customization will be what people see for all of your meetings. For that one account. So Okay. If you make a special video for like a big event you're doing, you have to then remember, put a note on your calendar to switch it back to whatever. [00:20:14] You're more general, so you can [00:20:16] Sarah: customized each waiting room separately for each meeting. It's just one you [00:20:21] Robbie: can, but you'd have to like keep going back in and remembering to switch it on and off. Right. [00:20:25] Sarah: Okay. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Okay, great. So, uh, one question. Can people chat already in the waiting room? [00:20:33] I don't think so. Right. [00:20:35] Robbie: Uh, they can't, uh, right now the host can communicate with people in the waiting room. Uh, and I think that they're gonna come out with a feature where the waiting room can then respond back to the host individually. Okay. Um, they, you cannot change your name, for instance, in the waiting. [00:20:53] but the host can change your name. So there's some new features that are coming out. Okay. Um, but I also wanna go back to, [00:21:00] you mentioned purpose first design, and I, I address it as well. So I want you to think about, as people are coming into your session, they're going to be thinking, feeling, and you're doing. [00:21:11] one thing. At the end of their time together, they're gonna be thinking, feeling, and or doing something else. And then in between is the transformation, right? So if you really spend some time thinking about where they're starting and where you want them to end up, that will help you decide. The structure flow, what exercises, what kind of content, how much time to spend on things, what to put in the waiting room, whether or not to have a breakout room. [00:21:38] If so, what kind of question? What kind of, what is the goal of, even for a breakout room, like what's the purpose of a breakout room? Is it around networking? Is it for them to discuss something? Is it for them to share? Is for them to feel like they belong. Like once you understand the sort of really primary focus of each piece of it and how it fits in with that overall goal, it's gonna help you design a much better [00:22:00] quality experience for your participants. [00:22:02] So that's the purpose first design piece. And then the facilitation is just to stop confusing people by saying the incorrect thing. Like go ahead and raise your hand in chat. Never been a raised hand button in chat. I've heard that phrase a lot. Or pointing down and like pointing, uh, pointing here and saying, go to reactions when that's not where it is. [00:22:28] Reactions on your side is on he over here. So if I, if I go to tell you like, um, oh, go ahead and go ahead and, uh, go to the top right of your screen and click. I'm not pointing at the right side of your screen. . This is the right side of your screen. So that's cold mirroring . Mm-hmm. And if you were on a stage physically, you would, you would know that, right? [00:22:51] Like you would know that if you pointed to your left, they're gonna see it on the right. But when we're doing this virtually, people kind of forgot all about that. So that just [00:23:00] hurts our brains. It makes our brains work a little extra hard. And that's part of that zoom fatigue is confusing instructions. [00:23:07] Um, The person who spends a lot of time saying, um, all right, let's see. I'm gonna try to share my slides. Let's see. Oh, the file's not open. And then they like, share their desktop. And you watch them like go through everything on their desktop. You're like, uhhuh, as they like narrate every step. That's, we can all get 5% better every time we zoom. [00:23:30] Yeah. Whether we're participating, whether we're hosting, whether we're speaking. Just aim to get that little bit better. . [00:23:37] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. There's so many small details that we need to learn, right? That, that now it's this extra layer. And actually in some of the videos you, you mentioned it's really helpful to a first, have an extra, um, screen that you can, you know, have one just dedicated screen for your PowerPoint presentation, for example. [00:23:58] Mm-hmm. , uh, [00:24:00] and even, uh, an extra person, like someone who helps you, you know, read through their questions in a q and a setting, or, yeah, just like there's so many things that we have to manage that, or we haven't even started talking about breakout rooms. But yeah, there's a lot of things going on that it, it really is sometimes helpful to have a, an extra person. [00:24:22] Robbie: Mm-hmm. , I think if, um, if you have more than 20 people, , I think it's, it starts to be a, for most people, that's where it makes sense to start thinking about having a second person. Right. But that second person, um, could be like a fellow. Uh, I, I know for instance, I know speakers who sh who support each other. [00:24:42] Right. Will they take turns? Like one will moderate chat for one person's program and then the other one will go back and moderate chat for the other person's program? Yeah. Awesome. You can train an assistant or, uh, an. or you know, a VA or even a member of your community to manage chat and manage the q and a [00:25:00] and manage, you know, all of that. [00:25:01] So yeah, it, it, it, and then, but it scales up because, you know, I, I train people on to be Zoom producers, and so Zoom producer would do all the tech, not just the chat. They would handle any technical issues that. You know, community has getting in, getting their sound to work. And then they would also, uh, manage breakout rooms and sharing slides if you need them to, any, anything needed. [00:25:27] Uh, as well as managing chat. And then there's the executive sort of, uh, event design, virtual event design that I do where I'm really providing the strategy ahead of time, training the speakers and how to look good, all that stuff. So it, there's layer. . But I would say starting with having a. Understanding of what does a good Q and A even look like? [00:25:50] Mm-hmm. , and then what kind of support you might need to pull that off. If you've only got six or seven people in a room, I think you're, you're fine on your own. Fine. Yeah. But you still have to know that [00:26:00] while I'm doing my best to look at the camera, there's something happening in chat. So I have sort of techniques where I ask people to write their question and chat, but to write the word question in all caps before their question. [00:26:13] So I'm more likely to. To see it. I also increase the font size by to 150% of the original font size in chat, which makes it a lot easier to catch when things are happening, um, off to side. So these are all little things that over time one thing becomes easier. Then you add on something else. So I'm not saying everyone has to do everything all at once. [00:26:36] That's the 5% part. Um, so I actually have a, a program called The 5% Advantage, and it's the, I launched it in May of 2020 and um, my wife was like, why would anyone wanna get 5% better ? And I said, no, no, every time it's about like continual improvement. , it's, it, it's amazing, like how much faster you will improve if you aim to just [00:27:00] keep getting a little bit better each time. [00:27:03] Sarah: I like that. Um, I do wanna ask you about breakout rooms cuz that's I think one of the things that Yeah, a lot of, uh, these. Programs, um, now include right now that we've gotten used to being on camera on Zoom, where it's not just like a webinar style anymore. And so one of the things you mentioned, um, is this idea of having clear instructions and, and I think I. [00:27:28] Really, I probably get better 5% every time I do it, but it's true that it's so essential to give clear instructions before sending people off into breakout rooms. Cuz you, you explained, you know the situation where people find themselves in the breakout room and they're like, Uh, anyone know what we have to do? [00:27:48] And, you know, they just start chatting about who they are and, and all of that. So, what's kind of like best practices about giving clear instructions, uh, for these breakout [00:27:58] Robbie: rooms? So start back [00:28:00] with the purpose first design. What is the goal of the session? The, the breakout part of this session? Um, if it's a quick icebreaker, then you can do either two people for five minutes or three for six. [00:28:11] If you can open more. I don't know, 10, 15 rooms. I would say three for. minutes is better cuz it's less likely that someone's gonna get stuck in a room by themself because of the internet. Um, failing one person. Um, but that would be like a quick icebreaker question. So they're just, they're literally just going around for a moment to say hello to each other. [00:28:30] Uh, you might do three or four people for 10 minutes. To similarities, how people go around and answer a question. Um, each person gets a couple of minutes and then that goes all the way up to, you know, a discussion where people might get, you know, it might be five or six people for 15 minutes where people really all answer a quick question, but then they dive into. [00:28:49] thoughts about that question a little bit more. So what happens is that if you just sort of throw people in a room without any clear question, uh, someone will [00:29:00] eventually unmute. Like at first they're all gonna like, look at each other. Like, what do we do here? The person who's most comfortable, um, most privileged , uh, probably has been around this community the longest is, is gonna be the one who unmutes and they may not relinquish the microphone and it might become just a. [00:29:19] A whole session of one person talking and now you're in the main room and you're like, awesome People are engaged. They're having so much fun. But that's, that's like checkbox engagement. Like in reality, one person had the mic for the whole time. So what I wanted to say is intentional engagement is that we provide not only a question that is specific, one question, not lots, don't ask the choose from three and all that, but you also provide an answer. [00:29:46] So you say, , you know, what's your biggest win of the week? Here's mine to get you thinking. Here's mine that you then put the question that you just said as the prompt in chat, and you say, if you need [00:30:00] to, you can open up chat and see the question. And let's go alphabetically. Let's go alphabetically by last name. [00:30:07] So if your last name's closest to a, you'll go first. We'll go in that order. And if you don't have a last name showing, go ahead and add it. Or you're going first. Hmm. And that way they get in their brains have already been thinking about the question. , when you tell your answer, you're sharing a story and stories ignite stories in other people's brains. [00:30:27] Mm-hmm. . So when I tell you my big win of the week, you start thinking about, well, what's my big win of the week? Mm-hmm. . So you're already a little bit primed to participate, and then you find out the order and you realize. . Ooh, there's a good chance I'm gonna be going first. , like my last name's close to a, and you're like, oh. [00:30:43] So you really are mentally repaired to unmute and jump in. Now some people get kind of cutesy about the order and they do like longest and short hair or colors of shirts or birthdays. All of those are kind of distracting. Take some time to discuss. [00:31:00] Leading. I mean I've been in so many sessions like that, that we end up talking about horoscopes cuz we were asked to like go in the order of our birthdays, right? [00:31:09] So I generally, I say like alphabetical or, or reverse alphabetical by, um, first name or last name. And if you really think a particular order would be helpful, for instance, maybe people for most experience at least experience with something you can say when you get into the breakout rooms, go to chat and put in the. [00:31:27] Of years you have with this, and we'll use that to organize, you know, most experienced, at least experience. But, um, but all that structure is actually, um, it helps people feel like they belong. And I actually think that thoughtful structure is about inclusion. It's about people feeling not just invited, but welcomed into a conversation. [00:31:49] It tells shy people and introverted people and newcomer. and people who maybe you speak a language that's different than the dominant language being used, it tells [00:32:00] them exactly what the rules are. There's no like in crowd knows how to ask questions or how to unmute. Everybody knows everything. So I think we, we, um, we as hosts and facilitators sometime like relinquish our role by saying, you all figure it out, but just like an in-person event, like people thrown together at a bar. [00:32:24] Often find the people they wanna meet. But when you structure an event at a bar and you've got name tags and people who are welcoming, you've got activities, you have people in, you know, interacting and engaging with each other. , that little bit of structure is what leads people to find each other, not just the randomness. [00:32:41] And I think online we need the similar structure to help people really find value in those breakout room discussions and wanna stay in touch. Everybody wants to find their people. Nobody wants to feel like they're the only one in the room having this challenged problem, identity, whatever it is. So I, I love [00:33:00] breakout rooms for that reason. [00:33:00] I think it provides so much community building. and then you bring them back. And I think an important part of, of breakout rooms is thinking about what kind of debrief. And by default, a lot of times the debrief is just how people use the raised hand feature. Um, or worse, worse than that would be go ahead and unmute if you have anything to say. [00:33:20] I'm like in person. You would never be like, all right folks, just start talking . It's just so weird that we do that online all the time. Um, so I would say alternate between sometimes having people raise their hand, which is self nominat. Sometimes have people write things in chat sometimes, uh, have them write things in chat, but wait to hit enter until you tell them. [00:33:39] I call that a, uh, waterfall debrief. Um, sometimes I have people nominate someone in chat mm-hmm. . So like, who shared a really great win, nominate them and let's, uh, get them to share with all of us. Um, there's just so many ways. To bring lots of voices in, not always the same. Like I'm an outgoing extrovert. [00:33:56] I, Sarah, I will raise my hand, answer a question, not knowing what the question [00:34:00] even was. , like, I'm like, sure. Mm-hmm. . But then you have people like me dominated in conversations the whole time. So the structure allows someone else to grab the mic or to be invited to grab the mic if they choose. [00:34:12] Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. [00:34:13] I'm grabbing the, I'm grabbing the mic. I'm the introvert in the room. . Um, yeah. So many good things. Two, no, I'm just gonna kind of reiterate the main takeaways for me. So first of all, yeah, the clear instructions when you send people into the breakout room and, and also what I really loved is, and what we haven't been doing in my Humane Marketing Circle community is defining ahead of time who goes first. [00:34:43] I think that is a big aha for me to really say. . Yeah. Take away that awkwardness like, you know, do you wanna go first? No, you go first. So it's like, okay. It's already clear who goes first. What my community recently asked me is actually to have two [00:35:00] minutes of reflection before they go into a breakout room so that they can. [00:35:05] Kind of think about because we kind of go deep into the, in, in the breakout rooms. But the other thing I learned right now from you is to, for them to already have my answer, um, so that it, like you said, it's a story, right? So they come in with a story, um, And I love that. One thing you didn't mention, uh, that I'm doing, and you'll tell me what you think about that is. [00:35:30] So I usually, for now, I don't go into the breakout rooms just because I, I don't have another person to help me manage it. So I'm the one sending the messages into the breakout rooms saying, okay, it's time to switch next person, you know. The three or four minutes to talk. Do you use that? Is that a good practice or do you [00:35:50] Robbie: Yeah, so, um, there's a couple things that I didn't, I didn't mention that. [00:35:54] Made me think about. One is there's a, there's a setting when you, there's an option when you set up the breakout [00:36:00] rooms that will put a countdown clock on the top. Right? Right. So it's really helpful to turn that on Uhhuh because then when everyone gets in, they know they have 10 minutes and they know how much time is remaining. [00:36:10] Um, helps 'em divide the time up equally. It helps them. Wrap their conversation up and at the end of that 10 minutes, my recommendation is to change. To be a 15 second countdown clock is default. 60 minutes. 60 seconds. Mm-hmm. But if you're watching the time countdown, and then suddenly you have a minute, there's this moment of almost walk awkward walk. [00:36:29] Awkward is when you say a big goodbye to someone at a restaurant and then discover we're both going in the same direction to your cars . That's. in person, but similarly, like you get to this point where everyone's like, all right, great, see you. Oh, 60 seconds. And then some people leave. Some people are like, oh, I have a whole nother thing. [00:36:47] I think I can squeeze in 60. Like it just, you know. So you're the [00:36:51] Sarah: countdown. It's better to have less time [00:36:53] Robbie: actually. Like Yeah, just get like, okay, we're wrapping up, we're coming back like we had, you got your 10 minutes, [00:37:00] then come back. Or to tell people, I mean, I guess if you wanted 'em to keep the 60 seconds, you can say, It's gonna be, you know, I guess just give people clear instructions. [00:37:08] Yeah. Um, and then, yes, there's a couple of ways to broadcast into the rooms. One is text only, and I, that's like walking by with a sign. Like if you were at an in-person event, you'd be walking by with a sign that said two minutes. You know, and you wouldn't say anything. You would just walk by and try to catch. [00:37:24] Not everyone would see it. You might be holding the sign behind some people's heads. Right. It's a very small font at the top. Then they have broadcast. and that is a lot more jarring if you wanted to use it. I think you need to tell people in advance, um, that you're going to say switch because it's a voice [00:37:42] Sarah: outta nowhere. [00:37:42] I never used it cuz I thought like, that is so odd if all of a sudden [00:37:46] Robbie: they hear my voice. Now, if you only had two people and it was very clearly like, you know, pairing and then switch, I could see cuz again would you in person like ring a bell and call out. Okay folks switch like [00:38:00] if you would. Think about like, yes, it's disruptive. [00:38:04] Now the problem is if you, if you have three people you don't know when they switched, like it's not as exact as science. And then there's also a way to broadcast an image, a video, or um, like a slides, like anything you can put on your screen, you can broadcast that. , um, that would be interesting to do if you had facilitators in the rooms and you wanted everyone to go through this content at the same pace. [00:38:26] You would be advancing the slides based on a certain increment of time. Facilitators would then be sort of taking questions, um, and. You would know that all the rooms were kind of moving through the content at the same pace, at the same amount of time for q and a at the end, and you'd be managing that. [00:38:44] They wouldn't be able to forward it, they wouldn't be able to annotate on it. But it is a way to like share the question. Again, it's disruptive in the sense that suddenly there's this thing on their screen mm-hmm. , um, that's, that's blocking some of them. Although they're, it's funny because the people are gonna be, uh, actually [00:39:00] over here in the image over here if they have a side by side set up. [00:39:03] So, but, um, but generally, yeah, the broadcast messaging, I would say like a two minute warning is usually really useful, like a halfway through two minutes left. But, um, the countdown clock up here is, is really, really helpful for most. . [00:39:17] Sarah: Yeah, I'll start using that. I haven't used that. I didn't know it existed. [00:39:20] And, and so thanks to your checklist, I now know where it is. So, so, um, yeah, we're coming to the end and, and so let's not forget to mention your checklist, but we started with the beginning. We went through the, you know, breakout rooms and all of that. And you said in the design, it's so important to also think. [00:39:40] you know, how are we gonna end this? So what is a good ending? What is, do you use any rituals or, um, yeah. You mentioned pictures, I think in one of the tips as well where you kind of take a screenshot of everybody. What are some good ideas for ending [00:39:56] Robbie: calls? Well, I think a lot of times calls end [00:40:00] with, well, we don't really have any time for anymore questions. [00:40:04] Like, and that's it. So if it's a presentation, I think it's really smart to. like two minutes. The end where you say, you know, oh, okay. Let me just, um, you know, those were great questions. Lemme just share some closing thoughts and then you have like the reiteration of your main point. Not, not new information, but like, it could be a reiteration of your main point. [00:40:26] It could be call to action or here are some next steps, or Here's what's coming up. , but you make sure that the, you know, if you're hosting, you give the mic back to the speaker, you thank them, you let them have two minutes, and then you take it back and say like, thank you. Here's what's happening next. So we just, you wanna think about having kind of a close, um, that isn't just, you know, wa wa we're out of time and, um, and, and gets people thinking about what do they do with this next, I, I like to do something I call calendaring, connecting, collaborating, and I do this both [00:41:00] in person. [00:41:01] as well as online when I design calendaring. Connecting, collaborating. So calendaring is you ask everyone to take a minute to think about one thing they can do in the next two weeks that they will help them move forward on this topic. And you say, great, now that you have that idea, open your calendar on your phone and find a time in the next two weeks that you're gonna be able to do that. [00:41:22] And like, look at your notes from today and. Connecting is if you're not quite sure what to do or you need some help, uh, look around to the people that you've been meeting with today and in breakout rooms and me and other. Here are some other people and resources. These are the people that you can sup, get support from. [00:41:39] Write down their names. Make sure that in those two weeks you also reach out to some of them and say hello and build a connection or deepen a connection. And then collaboration is that we're not doing any of this alone. I'd love to know. What happens next? Um, you know, lean into each other together. We're gonna build great things. [00:41:56] So, you know, this is your community. And I think that [00:42:00] particularly if, if your goal is to move people from inspiration to action, having that kind of ritualistic closure is helpful because, You know, some people will take tons of notes, but it's, it's useless without a plan. And others are just listening and not taking notes and so they, they also don't have a plan. [00:42:17] And so building some time in, and that could be 10 minutes, that could be a, a, you can really draw that out if you wanted to, or it could be something you do kind of quickly. [00:42:26] Sarah: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I love that. And I love that. , you know, we allow ourselves to have time for that. Uh, and that really needs to be planned into the whole Yes. [00:42:37] Uh, meeting. Right. Oftentimes, like you said, you kind of find yourself just rushed at the end and it's just like, [00:42:43] Robbie: okay, bye. Best content is more. Yeah. I think too often we try to cram a lot in, I wrote my first book in order to stop doing two hour programs. Mm-hmm. , like I had been doing this two hour talk for years and years and years, and I thought if I had a book, , I could say, oh, and you [00:43:00] can read more about that in my book and not have to say every single word. [00:43:04] And so similarly today, like we're not, I haven't, I mean, literally, I almost, you know, 20% of the book is on breakout Ri, so we, we scratch the surface of it, but it gets people the information to realize that there is a new way and then they can go investigate and DIY on their own or seek out support if they need it. [00:43:22] But yeah, I, I, there's a lot of. [00:43:25] Sarah: Yeah. And since you said less content is more. Right. I think also, uh, a point you made is like, don't, don't hide behind the slides. Mm-hmm. , especially if, if we're talking about community calls and, and not, you know, some kind of corporate settings. So definitely, yeah. That's one big one for me. [00:43:46] It's like yeah, the, whenever you can show up on the camera and not behind the slide. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Wonderful. Well, please do share, uh, again, the name of your [00:44:00] book and that, uh, p d f that people can download and look at your videos to go and dive deeper. [00:44:07] Robbie: Yeah. So, um, the book is called Break Out of Boredom, low Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Events. [00:44:14] Uh, it is gonna be published, uh, later this week. So I'm gonna just tell you if you go to breakout of boredom.com. , um, after March 5th or sixth, the, the link will be live and ready to go. Um, building a huge launch team right now, so reach out. If you're interested in being part of that, I'd love a review and the videos that you're mentioning, it sounds like you've done a good job diving into them. [00:44:38] they're available@robbiesamuels.com slash videos, and they're also some of the bonus content. So the book has a lot of free bonus content and the videos, which are 30. Strategy videos and my no more bad zoom settings checklist. Those are, um, one of, I think 10 or 11 resources that are, um, sort of bonus content [00:45:00] that goes with the book, though, all that's available at the breakout of boredom.com. [00:45:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Robbie. I always have one last question that I ask all my gifts and that is, what are you grateful for today or [00:45:13] Robbie: this. , my wife , she's amazing. Uh, she actually recently got laid off and wasn't feeling well. And yet, despite both those challenges, has been an incredible support. [00:45:24] I've had a very busy, uh, couple of months getting ready for this book, writing and launching at the same time. Um, and she holds our family together and our house together. And she, when we got married, said, you know, , you have higher earning potential than I do cuz you're entrepreneurial. And I said you may regret them saying that [00:45:44] And here we are. Um, it's true. I I am, I've got a business cuz I had someone who really believed in me and makes space for what I'm trying to create. So it's, you all need to thank her because I've been able to do a lot of good for a lot of people, [00:46:00] uh, because there's someone in my life who believes in, what's her name, Robbie. [00:46:03] Sarah: Her name is. Hi Jess. I hope you're listening to this . Wonderful. Thank you so much for taking the time to to meet here. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. So much you could I info this conversation right? I hope you took some notes. Uh, please find out more about Robbie and his work@robbiesamuels.com. And if you didn't take notes, go over to uh, find his checklist@robbiesamuels.com slash videos for his 30 plus Zoom strategy videos and checklists. [00:46:37] Uh, his podcast where I'll be a guest on soon as well, I is called on the schmooze, and you can find it on the schmooze.com. And his book, uh, again, is called Break Out of Boredom, low Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Events. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:46:58] Find out more [00:47:00] at humane.marketing/circle. As I mentioned before, we meet twice monthly on Zoom right now, and our calls are definitely non boring and highly engaging because everyone is heard and seen. So again, humane.marketing. Circle. You find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash 60 and 60 episodes. [00:47:27] Wow, I can't believe it. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human, and. Audiobook fan. Uh, this is just a reminder that marketing like we're human is now also available in audio format on Audible or anywhere else where you get your audiobooks. [00:47:58] Of course, read by [00:48:00] yours. Truly. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the. Speak soon.

Happy New Year! We are kicking off 2023 with a podcast filled with doulas. Meagan is joined by one of our VBAC Link-trained doulas, Sarah, to welcome our guest, Holly. Holly is a wife, mama, RN, doula, and placenta encapsulator. Holly's first birth was a planned Cesarean due to breech presentation. Her second birth was a hospital VBAC with a long labor. Her most recent birth was a redemptive, quick, and dreamy HBAC (almost in her toilet)!Holly shares her tips on keeping a positive mindset through weeks of prodromal labor and how she was able to fight doubts and fears to achieve her beautiful HBAC. Additional LinksHolly's Doula WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsFull TranscriptMeagan: Hello and happy 2023. I cannot believe we are starting a new year off, but I can't wait to see where this year takes us. Today, we have Sarah. She is back today. She actually was on a little bit ago, but we had some time craziness so we are having her back on for a full episode. So welcome, Sarah. Sarah: Hello, glad to be back. Meagan: So happy to have you back. So fun to be cohosting with our VBAC doulas. If you guys did not know, we have a VBAC doula certification for VBAC and we are going to start hearing from some of our VBAC doulas because I'm going to have them on here and there as cohosts. I'm so excited to have them on, share where they're at, and of course, have them be a part of this amazing community too. Sharing these stories and hearing these stories on the podcast seriously lights my day up. So on those days where I'm like, “Okay, we've got 4 hours of podcasts.” A lot of people might dread 4 hours of work, but I don't see it as 4 hours of work. I see it as 4 hours of inspiration and motivation for me to keep going on The VBAC Link and to share these stories with you. Review of the WeekWe have our friend Holly today and she's going to share her VBAC story but I'm going to have Sarah read a Review of the Week before we do. Sarah: Okay. This review is from Apple Podcasts and I hope I'm saying this username correctly, but it's Kyeiwaaglover. Meagan: Yeah. When I saw that I was like, “Kyoa?”Sarah: Kyeiwaaglover, I believe, and it says, “As a doula, I'm grateful for platforms like this to refer to clients and for me to learn as well. “Meagan: I love that. It's kind of fun. Today, we've got me, Sarah, Holly, and then Kyeiwaaglover– I don't even know how to say it. Sarah: Kyeiwaaglover. That's what I'm going with. Meagan: Yes. We are all doulas. A fun background story about Holly is she is actually a registered nurse by trade but after her VBAC, she found the passion like a lot of us and has since become a doula and a placenta encapsulator. I think it's fun how we're sharing a VBAC story, but together, even with the review, I didn't even make that connection until you just said that, but we're all doulas today so yay for doulas. I'm so excited to get into Holly's story. Holly's StoriesMeagan: Okay everybody. Holly, thank you so much for taking the time today to share your story. I know you've got your little one in a wrap strapped to your chest. So stinking adorable. How old is your baby? Holly: He is 7 weeks today. Meagan: 7 weeks!Holly: So we're going on 2 months. Meagan: Just really little and he was trying to turn into the camera. Holly: I know. Meagan: Well, we would love to turn the time over to you to share your VBAC story. And of course, your C-section story too if you would like. Holly: Absolutely. I have a bit of a journey with my birth stories. My first daughter is 4.5 now, so I was pregnant a little over 5 years ago with her. I was finishing up nursing school. I was really into the medical model of care at that point just being in nursing school and getting all of that information. During my pregnancy, it was my last semester, and I was with a midwife at a clinic. I overall had a great pregnancy and great care. I finished nursing school, took my MCLETS, finished everything, and so we were in the last few weeks of pregnancy and I got to about 41 weeks with her and we had those tests at the end so you can check to see their growth. Meagan: It's like a third-trimester ultrasound where they go through everything. Holly: You go overdue and they're like, “Let's make sure everything's okay.” Blah blah blah. A bunch of time went by and they can't tell you anything in the ultrasounds, and then my midwife had called me later that evening and she's like, “You know, your baby is actually breech and these are my recommendations,” and so on. At that point, I still had prepared myself for a natural birth. I didn't want to do an epidural. I wanted as few interventions as possible. I didn't even think of that as a thing that could happen, so it just tore my heart out. At 41 weeks, you're so emotional and so full of hormones so it took a long time for me to process it. I went and had a consult with an OB at the local hospital and they were like, “Well, we could try turning the baby, but at this point, you're 41 weeks. There's a lot of risk to it.” They're like, “Basically, your only option is a C-section.” I'm like, “Okay.”I didn't have all of the education and resources that I have now, so at that point, I had to put a lot of trust into the medical system and took their word for it and we had a planned C-section with her. But I was 41.5 weeks by the time we actually scheduled it, so it wasn't an emergency. They were like, “If you go into labor, it's an emergency, but we'll still schedule it for 3 or 4 days from now.”Overall, my C-section went really well. I was able to have my baby skin-to-skin right away. She never left me. We stayed together which was awesome. I had a really good recovery from that, thank God. There weren't huge traumas with it but once I got pregnant with my second, I realized how actually traumatic emotionally it was for me, so it took a lot of healing and processing to be able to give myself that second chance and to go for my first VBAC. About a year and a half later, I got pregnant with my second daughter. She is now 2.5 years old. At that point, I really had gotten into more– I was still working as a nurse and I had really gotten into more of natural living and natural solutions and just a holistic view of health. I had hired a doula. At that point, I was interviewing providers at the hospital and I hired a doula who was going through midwifery school. She was just a wealth of knowledge. I had a doula with my first baby, but it wasn't what I had expected out of a doula, unfortunately. But, my doula with my second baby was absolutely incredible. She just provided me with so much information and was there for me to support me, to help me through all of my emotions with my first birth. So talking with her about the providers I had interviewed and told her, “I still don't feel comfortable choosing one.” She was like, “Well, have you given home birth a thought or hiring a midwife?” I'm like, “Well, there are no midwives at the hospital that will take me because they can't take VBACs at the hospital.”And in Minnesota, home midwives are allowed to take on VBACs at home. They don't have huge restrictions there on the home birth midwives so I'm like, “Okay, well maybe. I don't know. There are these risks that I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with that right now.” She's like, “Well, either way, you can always just interview one and get the information so you have both sides so you know which way you want to choose and you are fully informed.” I said, “Yeah. You're right.” So my husband and I interviewed a couple of midwives. One of them was a little iffy with taking us on. She didn't seem very comfortable with VBAC which was fine and another one was pretty good. She was more medically minded and then I interviewed a third midwife. She had a lot of experience with VBACs and was just overall matched really well with us. We ended up choosing to home birth with my second baby. That whole prenatal care with our home birth midwife was incredible. The prenatal care alone was just so different from a clinical setting. I was about 40 weeks at that point and we were going for our home birth. You get to that 40-week mark and you're just like, “Okay. When is this going to happen? I'm so ready to have this baby,” but also trying to trust your body and knowing when that time is right. So I was a couple of days away from 42 weeks and labor happened spontaneously. I labored at home with my doula and then my midwife came later on. My husband was there and my mom was there. I labored for a total of 24 hours and we ended up suspecting after checking my cervix and checking baby's position that she was stuck. Her head was flexed, so her chin was up instead of tucked down to her chest, so she was stuck on my pelvic bone for quite a while. After assessing the risks and everything, we ultimately decided to transfer to the hospital. The hospital was 5 minutes from us so it was one of those things where it was comforting knowing that it was so close, but also, in this pregnancy and in this experience with my second, I really had a hard time letting go of control and really trusting my body fully 100%. I think that also kind of affected the way I labored and my thought process. We transferred to the hospital and had a really great resident doctor. She was incredible. She was like, “You know, do your thing. Do what you need to do. Just let us know what you need.” The OB that was there was a different story, but I ended up laboring there for about 8 more hours and that included about an hour and a half of pushing. I had my first VBAC at the hospital and she came out just screaming and crying, eyes wide open. I just remember crying and saying, “We did it. We did it.” I couldn't believe it. I was just in shock and it was very healing. But later on, I found that there were still parts of it that were a little traumatic for me and I had things to heal from with that birth too even though I had successfully had a VBAC, it was different and not fully what I expected. So that leads me to my third and final baby here. We again decided to plan for a home birth. My daughter was a little less than 2 and my other daughter a little less than 4 when we got pregnant with him. Again, we decided to home-birth and my husband was like, “Are you sure? Last time we ended up going to the hospital. Do you think that's just going to be easier if we just plan for that this time?”I said, “No. Absolutely not. We're having this baby at home.” My mindset was so different. I started as a doula after my second daughter was born and I had really gotten into that natural birth and trusting your body and just knowing that our bodies were designed for this. Our bodies were perfectly designed for birth. Yes, there are times when medical intervention is needed, but really, I just was so in this mindset of, “I can do this. This is it. This is my redemption. I know I can do this.” I didn't even have to interview any midwives. I actually hired my doula from my second birth. She had become a midwife and was practicing and I just instantly knew her philosophy and her beliefs surrounding birth were exactly what I needed in my prenatal care and my birth, everything. We started seeing her from about 16 weeks onward and so we had all of our prenatal care at home. It was incredible. She really put everything into my hands which was what I wanted. I wanted control of the tests that we did and that we didn't do, everything. We weren't going to have an ultrasound to find out the sex but ultimately, my husband and I agreed to have a 20-week ultrasound at 23 weeks. We found out the sex and we were just so surprised and so happy because we were having a boy and if we were having a girl too, of course, we would have been just as happy, but at that point, I could get rid of all my girl clothes and start organizing and getting ready. It was just one of those things that my heart needed. So with my midwife that we had, like I said, she really put the control in my hands. I felt so much respect from her and I felt like in every decision I made, I was fully informed. I understood everything. I made the decisions that were best for me and my baby and our family. Leading up to my birth, those few weeks before, we talked about fears and if there was anything I needed to process before my labor. This time I was like, “No. Really, I feel good. I don't have any fears.” There was a part of me that was like, “What if we do transfer to the hospital?” but the other part of me was like, “Don't worry about that. Put that out. You've done it before. You know what to do,” so I put that part out of my head too. I was like, “Nope. We're having this baby at home.” We actually were planning to move cross country down to South Carolina in September so my midwife was like, “Do you feel okay about this timeline you're on?” I'm like, “Oh yeah. I'll go to 42 weeks and I'll still have 3 weeks before we have to move. It'll be fine.” She was just like, “I can't believe you're fine with that.” I'm like, “Yeah. I feel totally good about it. I have so much support.” My husband's family was coming right after the baby was born. The amount of support we had was exactly what we needed and I'm so thankful for that. Near the end of my pregnancy with our son, there were a couple of points where we actually thought he was breech, and those brought back a lot of feelings. I kept telling my midwife throughout my pregnancy, “This pregnancy feels a lot like my first just my cravings and everything.” She was like, “Okay.” We ended up thinking he was breech and I'm like, “Oh great. Here we go.” But at that point, I was like, “It doesn't matter what position he's in, I'm still letting myself go into labor. If he was breech, I was still going to birth him vaginally and everything.” It didn't matter to me but it was also like, “Okay, I have to prepare for this if this is a change of plans.” Another midwife locally has a little ultrasound that you can plug into your phone, so we checked quickly to see where his head was just so we could confirm and prepare if needed and she was like, “Yeah, I think he is breech. I think this is his head up here.” She was like, “Let me check a little bit lower,” so we checked a little bit lower, but it turns out that his head was super, super deep in my pelvis. I'm sure I probably was dilated too to maybe 2 or 3 with him because he was just so low in my pelvis that they were feeling his shoulders when they would palpate. I threw that out of the window. He was head down. We were good to go. The next few weeks, I was about 39 weeks, maybe a little before that, and I started having prodromal labor. I kept referring to it as that and I'd have contractions all day long, all day long, and then I'd go to sleep at night and they'd go away. Nothing would happen. They were fine. They weren't contractions where I'm like, “Oh man,” trying to breathe through or anything, but they were uncomfortable and they had changed from Braxton Hicks because I had Braxton Hicks throughout my pregnancy too. So they had changed. They were stronger and lower. It was just one of those things which messes with your head. You're like, “Okay. Could this be it? No, probably not. I'm just going to go to sleep,” and when you wake up in the morning, it's like, “Okay. No baby.” Weeks of that and it was just physically exhausting, mentally exhausting and then you get family who are like, “When's the baby coming?” You're like, “I don't know.” You want to tune everyone out, but at the same time, you can still hear them and you get in your own head. That's why now, with my own clients, I'm like, “Don't tell anyone your due date. Just don't. Tell them your birth month. Sometime in August. That is it,” because people mean well and they don't necessarily mean to be pushy with it, but–Meagan: I know. Holly: –-it's just one of those things where it doesn't help. It really doesn't. And then there was one weekend, I got up and I was 41 and 2 or 3 days. That weekend, I just told my husband, “We just need to go. I need to get out of the house. I need to go out and do things all day long. I don't want to be here contracting.” He's like, “Okay. All right. That's fine.” So we took the girls and we went to my sister's camper and we were there all day swimming and hanging out. I started having contractions like, “Oh man,” like twinging pains in my cervix. I'm like, “Okay. This is different. Maybe something's happening. I'm going to be patient and keep myself busy.” I went to the bathroom later on around dinnertime. I had actually brought my daughter to the bathroom and I'm like, “Okay, I'll go too.” I wiped and I'm like, “Oh my god, there's some mucus plug on my toilet paper. Yes. Things are happening. Okay. Back to trusting my body and knowing that everything is happening at the right time.” I went out, of course, and told my husband. He was like, “Okay. Do we need to go?” I'm like, “No. We're fine. We're going to stay here. We're going to finish our day then go home.” We went home and there were more contractions. It felt like there were more. Actually, a week before this– I forgot to mention this– my midwife was like, “Stop referring to it as prodromal labor. Think of it as early labor.” I'm like, “Okay. I've been in early labor for 2 weeks now. That's not helping, but okay.” Meagan: Well, I will say this though. Sometimes when we tell our clients, “Oh, it looks like it's prodromal labor,” they're like, “So you're telling me that I'm not laboring?” So maybe if we change it to early labor, it's just– I don't know. Like you said, it's just a really long early labor. Holly: Yeah. I know. And it kind of helps. It's all a process. It's all doing something. It's not for nothing. My body was doing– I don't know. Maybe he wasn't in the right position where my body wanted to birth him, but he wasn't finding the right position. Meagan: That's a lot of the time the reason why prodromal labor happens because our uterus is brilliant and it's trying to work and get our baby into the right spot before labor begins. Holly: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So much yes. So the next morning came around, I'm like, “Okay. I slept all night. That's great, but nothing happened. Okay. What are we going to do today?” So we drove 45 minutes north to my dad's house and my husband was like, “Do you think this is too far?” I'm like, “No, this is fine.” I thought this was going to be our last time at my dad's house before we had a baby and then move. I'm like, “This is what I need.” So we spent the day on the lake swimming and just hanging out. I still had those contractions and twinging. I'm like, “Okay. This is good. We're just having a nice time,” and then we went home and had dinner and went on a walk with our girls. I think it was that night, we had a couple of friends over. They were fixing something in my husband's car. I went back inside and got my girls to sleep. I went to the bathroom and I noticed even more mucus plug that night. I was like, “Okay. Awesome. We're on the right path still.” I went to sleep that night. Actually, early, early Monday– because that was a Sunday night– so early Monday morning at 3:00 AM, I was waking up to these stronger contractions and I was sleeping, but I was breathing through them. I could tell that it was more than what it was before. That morning comes and I told my husband. He actually had an interview for a new job that day virtually. He was like, “Well, I have to be at this interview.” I'm like, “Okay. It's fine. We're not going to have a baby yet.” I went throughout that day and I had these contractions where I was breathing through them. I was stopping what I was doing and shushing my girls and being like, “I need this moment to get through this, and then we're good.” My midwives came over to check on me and my contractions stopped. They went away. I was like, “Okay. This is obviously my body telling me that I need alone time.” They left and my contractions started coming back again. My girls were around. They are 4 and 2. They were just nuts at this point. It's kind of like my body knew to pull back for a while and then I actually went to Target with my mom Monday afternoon. We bought a rocking chair. I'm like, “I need a chair. This is going to happen soon. “ I wasn't going to get one because we were moving and then I'm like, “Nope. We're just going to do it.” We were walking around Target and I'm just having these contractions and stopping and she goes, “Are you sure we're okay to be here?” I'm like, “It's fine. Everything's fine. It's not happening yet.” I'm just in denial. We get home and we do our nightly walks with the girls and I'm curb walking and just trying to get things to keep going and get stronger. I texted my midwife. I'm like, “Yeah, they're like 10 minutes apart. Definitely stronger and lower and more painful, so yeah. We'll see what happens later.” She's like, “Okay. Whatever.”That night, we were outside and my daughter Hannah is my two-year-old. She's like, “I'm ready to go to bed.” I'm like, “Okay. Let's go.” We get her inside and my husband and my other daughter were outside playing still. I got her to bed and we just cuddled in her bed and got all of that oxytocin flowing. Then after that, my contractions were really starting to pick up and started to get a little closer together. They were about 8 minutes at this point. I started texting my husband. I'm like, “Where are you? Where's Callie? You need to get her to bed.” I called my husband's parents and I'm like, “Can you pray for me? I want you to pray over me now. I feel like something's going to happen here soon and maybe tonight's the night.” So just having that prayer really helped me calm down and really settle down. Then after that, my husband comes in with my daughter. She's not wanting to go to sleep and keeps coming out of her room. I told him, I'm like, “Okay.” I don't know what came over me, but I'm like, “You need to get her to bed right now. She cannot be out here anymore. I can't do this.” He goes, “Okay, all right.” Finally, she goes to sleep and stays in her room. He's in there with her until she falls asleep. So I'm like, “Okay. I'm going to make myself some toast and a snack and some tea and relax a little bit. Maybe just go to sleep.” So I'm in my kitchen and all of a sudden, this contraction just comes over my whole entire body. I'm like, “Oh man. This is it. This is the one. This is the start of it.” Finally, I took myself out of denial. I'm like, “Okay. Things are going to happen.” At the top of this contraction, I'm standing at the kitchen sink, and my water breaks. My husband is in my daughter's room. I don't have my phone on me and I'm just like, “Oh my god. Oh my god.”Meagan: Like, “Okay. This isn't going to stop. I don't think this is going to stop.” Holly: I know. I'm like, “This is real now. My water broke. This is actually happening.” It took my water breaking for me to actually believe it at this point. Thankfully, I was actually standing over a rug by my kitchen sink. I'm like, “Okay. This is great. I'm on a rug, but I want to move. I don't want to walk down to my room.” I stand there for a minute and I'm like, “Oh my god. Oh my god. Jason!” My husband's name is Jason. He doesn't hear me of course because he's in my daughter's room and so then I finally waddle all down the hallway down to our room. I get my phone and I text him. I said, “My water broke.” He texts back, “Great!”I don't know what he was thinking. I called my midwife and I was really calm. I was like, “Hey, my water broke and things are happening.” She goes, “Okay, great. How far apart are your contractions?” I'm like, “They're probably 6-8 minutes, 8ish minutes I guess.” She goes, “Okay, well why don't you time them for the next half hour and then text me and let me know how they are?” So I'm like, “Okay, I have some time.” Little did I know, she was actually texting my husband, “I'm on my way. I'll be there as soon as I can.” She's like, “I don't want to miss your birth.” My husband finally comes out of the room. I wasn't panicking but moreso excited and being like, “Okay. It's happening. This is it. This is what we've been preparing for and waiting for.” At this point, I was just emotional every day about wanting to have my baby and not be pregnant anymore. He was like, “Okay, great. What do you need from me?” At this point, I'm already cleaning up our room, and not because we were having our midwives but mostly because I wanted our room to be prepared. I had everything set up like my twinkle lights and my affirmations, everything. So at that point, my contractions were 3-4 minutes apart. So as soon as my water broke, they really got going. I was really starting to labor through them now and breathing and moaning and doing all of the labor things. I found my ideal position of laboring. I was on my knees hunched over my bed because my bed was just on the floor at that point.My husband was telling me, “What can I do? How can I help?” With my first VBAC, I had this weird, sharp, dull pain. It was so hard to describe. It was on my right leg from my butt all the way down to my heel. It was awful. It never went away. I couldn't find anything that made it comfortable, so I'm like, “Can you just massage my legs? I have that same pain this time through every contraction.” I think that was the only fearful thing. I didn't want to have that this time and of course, I did. So I'm like, “Just massage my legs,” so he grabbed some [towels] and he was massaging my leg through every contraction in between and then he was doing counterpressure on my back. At this point, things were really picking up very fast. So my water broke at about 8:40ish and then my midwife and her assistant midwife and then another student got there at about 9:40 because she lived about 45 minutes away. So then they got there and I was really in labor land and just really in the thick of it and I just remember thinking, “Why am I not getting a break? These contractions just keep coming quicker and quicker and I'm not having as much time in between. Why am I not getting a break?”She goes, “Well, things are happening fast.” I'm like, “Okay, all right,” and still not thinking anything of it. I was in the on-my-knees position laboring which felt super great and my husband was doing counterpressure perfectly through every single contraction, bless his heart. At one point, I'm like, “Okay, I've got to get up. I've got to go pee. It's been a while.” They're like, “Okay, you've got to get up. Let's go to the bathroom and sit on the toilet for a little bit. That'll be good for labor, for dilating, for everything.”I'm like, “Okay. I can do that.” It took all my might to stand up because his head was in my pelvis and– I don't know. Some women labor standing up and push and everything. I just cannot even imagine because I stood up and I just waddled. I'm like, “This is the weirdest feeling and so uncomfortable.” I got to the bathroom which is attached to our room thankfully. I got on the toilet and I remember being like, “I can't pee.” In my previous labor, that same thing happened and they actually gave me a catheter and took out a ton of pee which eventually actually helped my baby come down. So this time that happened, I'm like, “Oh no, we're going to have to put a catheter in.” She goes, “I don't know. Just give it some time.” We were on the toilet for maybe 10 minutes and I had a couple of contractions that felt good this time. They didn't hurt. They just felt like my body was– it's so hard to describe and now, looking back, I'm like, “Okay. That was my body pushing.” So this time I really got to experience that my body was actually doing it. I wasn't pushing. I wasn't doing anything. These contractions were just pushing my baby out. She was like, “Why don't you just put your hand down there and just see if you can feel baby?” To my surprise, I'm like, “Oh my god. His head was maybe a knuckle deep.” I'm sorry if that's too much information. But he was so close. He was right there. I'm like, “Oh my god. I'm doing it. My body is doing it. He's doing it. We're so close.” I had another very light contraction that didn't feel like it did anything at all. I'm like, “I don't know what that was, but I'm sure it was my body just getting a little bit of a break.” Still, at that point, I didn't think I was about to birth him, but another contraction came and I put my hand down. This contraction came on so suddenly and my body just was pushing. All of a sudden, I felt my baby's head emerge. My hand was over the top of his head. I was still on the toilet and I was like, “Oh my god. He's coming right now. I need to get off of this toilet. He cannot be born into the toilet. That cannot happen.” My midwife was in front of me beside the toilet and my husband was behind me. He was doing the counterpressure, so I told him, “You have to lift me up.” He was like, “Okay. Here's a stool back here.” I'm like, “No, I can't sit on a stool right now. You just need to hold me. He's coming. He's coming right now.” I told my midwife, “You have to catch him.” Our bathroom is tile. I'm like, “He can't hit the floor.” I mean, this is all coming out super quickly at this point. Things were just happening fast. So then his head was born and then my body stopped, and then it started contracting again and his whole body just came out. My midwife swooped him up and it was very quick. She brought him right up to my chest and he was right there with me. It was just like, “Oh my god.” I couldn't believe how quickly he came out and how my body had done so much work at that point. At first, he wasn't crying. He was actually very pale and floppy. It gives you a little bit of a panic. I'm calling out to him. I'm saying his name like, “Your mom's here. We're here. We love you.” Yeah. And then I saw one of the midwives give the Ambu bag to my midwife because it had been about a minute at that point and he hadn't quite pinked up and cried yet. We were just kind of giving him the time he needed. In my heart, I knew that he would be okay. I knew that he just needed some time and that he just came out so quickly. He was stunned. So just over a minute came and he started crying. They come and they're born and you're like, “Oh my god,” like, yes but then that first cry, and when they make that face and you're like, “Oh my god. Okay. He's here. We did it. Everything's okay.” It was just amazing how most of the time at a hospital if that were to happen– I say most of the time, but not always– they want to help them breathe. They want to suction them. They want to bag them. They want to do all of these things to help them breathe and we really just gave him that time that he needed to come into his body and be there with us. It wasn't traumatic for us at all. I think if someone would have put a bag on him or suctioned him, that would have been more traumatic than this experience. So he came to and he got pink and started crying. We were just holding him and oh my gosh. It was a different feeling than my first VBAC. I truly believed in my body's ability and my baby. We prayed so much about having our baby at home and we just felt so safe. My husband was there behind me. He was crying and I was crying. Everyone was crying at this point. My midwife and I were just so close. She is one of my really good friends too so it just made it that much more special. Meagan: Such an intimate time and everyone was probably feeling all of the things. That's how it was at my birth too. Everyone's watched you work so hard and go through all of this. Now you're here. You just did it so the emotions are high. Holly: Oh yeah. I just remember, they were like, “Do you want to sit down on the floor and get comfortable?” I'm like, “No. I just want to go to my bed.” “Are you sure? You just had a baby.” “I know. I just want to go to my bed. That's where I want to be.” That was a big reason why I wanted to birth at home. I just wanted to be in my bed. So I got in my bed. Another thing that we had actually thought near the end of my pregnancy was that there could have been a hiding twin where you hear with babies that are either really big or maybe there is a twin in there or something. I had a lot of fluid and he took up the space that he really wanted, so I started having these cramps again and she goes, “Do you mind if I actually listen?” No, I don't think she actually listened, but then when she felt it was like, “No, it's the placenta.” The clot behind the placenta was the hard spot we were feeling because my placenta was anterior. She goes, “Okay. I don't think there's another baby.” I'm like, “Oh god. I hope not. I'm not having another baby.” But no. Meagan: That would be a surprise. Holly: I know. I'm like, “No. That's not going to happen.” I don't know if that was intuitively or I just didn't want it to happen, but I'm like, “No.” And so about a half hour went by and then I was able to birth my placenta. I had my midwife assist me with it a little bit just because I hadn't done that with my second and because at the hospital, they managed it which actually wasn't what I wanted either so I didn't have that experience of naturally birthing my placenta yet, so I was just like, “Can I just have your assistance?” and she helped me with that. It came out perfectly and it was really cool because being a placenta encapsulator, I'm like, “I really want to assess and look at my own placenta,” and so I was able to do that. It was perfect. It looked great. My amniotic sac was just huge. I mean, you could just tell I had lots of water in there. He was actually only 7 pounds, 12 ounces so he was my smallest baby. But yeah. My first was 7 pounds, 15 ounces and then my second with my VBAC was 8 pounds, 9 ounces. So not a huge difference, super small, but I'm like, “Wow.” My husband and I had a bet that he would name him if he was under 7 pounds and I would name him if he was over 8 pounds. I'm like, “He's for sure going to be over 8 pounds. I've got this.” No, he won that one but I actually still named him. Sarah: That's an interesting way to choose who gets to pick the name. Holly: I know. And really, I knew that either way it goes, I still want the name that I want and he loved the name that I picked too. I'm like, “Okay, fine.” Since we couldn't agree on it, we made a bet. Meagan: I love that. That's so fun. Holly: Yeah. It was just such a good experience and it healed my first birth. It healed my second birth and it was just the most redemptive, healing birth I could ask for. It was the cherry on top of my birth experiences really. It was just amazing how I went from my C-section and then I went to my home birth transfer to the hospital but still had my VBAC and then had my VBAC at home on my terms and in my own space with the people that I chose to be there. Meagan: Yeah. You've kind of experienced a whole slew of outcomes which is fun and I'm assuming it will help you in your doula career too if you do have a home birth transfer client, you can say, “I get it. I've been here. This is what we're going to do when we get there,” and help them along the way. Holly: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's really shaped me into the person that I am today with my birth work. Meagan: Yes. Well, huge congrats. Holly: Thank you. Sarah: I think the most beautiful part of your story is your ability to really trust your body and I think a lot of moms underestimate that mindset concept. You worked on it. Meagan: It does. Holly: Yeah. It makes a huge difference. With my second, I tried, but there was still a part of me that was holding onto the what-ifs and I think that's partly due to when you have a C-section, you get that doubt put into you and I didn't even labor with my first. We went straight to a C-section, so it was like a first baby all over again and not even knowing what to expect at all even though I had a baby already. Sarah: Yeah. I think that's one of the harder things to really try to separate our births and especially as people that have had Cesareans to really dislocate that experience from our VBACs moving forward. Holly: Yes. Every birth is so different. Even within the same woman, your births can be so, so different. Babies are so different. It's amazing. It can be so much of the same, but so, so different. I went from a 36-hour labor and birth to 2 hours and 10 minutes from start to finish. Well, early labor was weeks, but I don't count that. My water broke and then 2 hours and 10 minutes later, he was born. It was just so fast. It wasn't too fast where I couldn't process it because I'm like, “As long as it's under 12 hours, I'll be happy.” It was just so fast. Meagan: I would love to know if there are any suggestions you would give for our listeners on getting to that place with your mindset. What tips would you suggest for getting into that mindset because it can be really, really hard? Holly: Yes. One aspect of it is you look at social media and if you are following accounts that aren't giving you positive, good information, I think that can be really hard. For me in the beginning, I started unfollowing all of these accounts that were not good for me and just started following accounts that were sharing positive birth stories and videos and all of the good things that I needed to fill my mind with. It made a really big difference for me. I watched birth videos with my daughters every day because at first, I really wanted them there, but they were both sleeping and that's what I needed in the end. But yeah. I think following accounts that give you good information that is positive, watching birth videos that have positive outcomes, and watching things and listening to the things about the birth that you want. I think that just makes a huge difference and helps your mindset. Meagan: I love that. Just jumping right into that space and not allowing any of the other things into that space, yeah. Love it. Holly: Just connecting with other women and that can be huge too. I'm a very faithful person and we prayed a lot during this pregnancy and through our birth. That's something that really helped me and just surrendering that I wanted to be in control of everything but surrendering that control too was huge. Meagan: That's awesome. I love it.  I love it so much. I love your picture. I can't wait for everyone to see it. If you're listening to it today, head over to our Instagram or Facebook and look at this incredible picture of her holding this sweet, little baby. Oh, it's beautiful. It is so beautiful. So thank you so much for sharing. Holly: Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I listen to your guys' podcasts all through my second pregnancy and it made such a big difference to me to hear other women's stories and different stories. It was so helpful to me, so thank you. Meagan: Yes. That's one of my favorite things. We were talking about it in the beginning. We love having people on that have listened through their whole pregnancy. They're like, “All of these stories have changed my life. Now I'm going to share my story to help someone change theirs.” I love it so much. Thank you again. Congrats. Sarah, thank you so much for being with us again. So fun and Happy New Year, everybody. Happy New Year. It's kind of weird to say that right now because it's October as we are recording. Holly: It'll be here sooner than we know. Meagan: It will be here so soon. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.   Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

We are honored to have Dr. Hazel Keedle join us today all the way from Australia! Hazel is the author of Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth. She has more than 25 years of experience as a clinician both in nursing and midwifery, an educator, and a published researcher. Her work remains rooted in her desire to strengthen and empower women.Hazel tells us how her own VBAC birth journey lit a fire that led to the completion of her doctorate degree and her book. Everything in her book is ESSENTIAL for VBAC-hopeful mamas and is all backed with evidence-based research.We know you will LOVE listening to Hazel. She is so gracious and such an invaluable asset to the birth world. This episode is a must-listen and her book is most definitely a must-read for all!Additional linksBirth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle, PhDHazel's Instagram: @hazelkeedleHazel's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/VBACmattersSarah's Instagram: @sarah_marie_bilger or @entering_motherhoodHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: You guys are listening to The VBAC Link and I'm so excited for today's episode. We have Hazel Keedle today. She's in Australia and it's 1:00 a.m. She stayed up all night just to be with us today on this podcast. So grateful for her. We're going to be time sensitive so we can make sure to get her tucked into bed at a somewhat reasonable hour, but guess what? Today, we have a co-host. A co-host! I'm so excited to start bringing on some co-hosts here and there. Today, we have Sarah and she is one of our VBAC doulas. I'm so excited to have her with us today. Review of the WeekMeagan: Sarah is going to actually do the honors of reading you a review. So go ahead, Sarah. Sarah: Hi, yeah. I'm glad to be here. We have a review from Katelyn Bayless. This one is from google and it says, “I honestly can't recommend The VBAC Link enough. I had my son via C-section in 2021 and even though I'm not pregnant with number two yet, I feel so ready and even excited for when that time comes because of all of the stories and education from The VBAC Link. I have been binging the podcast for the past couple of weeks and I have a note on my phone that is specifically for VBAC resources and education that has been mentioned on this podcast. “I am looking into providers and planning on starting interviewing some soon. I can't tell y'all enough. Thank you for all that you do and I hope one day I can share my VBAC story.”Meagan: Oh, I love that. I love that. Well, today's episode is going to have some more resources for you for sure. Hazel Keedle, PhDMeagan: We are coming to you from The VBAC Link. We have a guest from Australia. We're so excited to have her. We're so, so excited. We actually just connected here. We are connecting for the first time, I should say today, but Hazel, our guest today, just connected with us about a week or two ago. You guys, she is so amazing. It's 1:00 a.m. and she is in Australia recording right now, so I just want to give her a huge shoutout and thank you for being with us at 1:00 a.m. Oh my goodness. I told her I probably would have been, “Nope. Let's find another time,” but here she is. She is so dedicated at 1:00 a.m. recording with us and I cannot wait to share with you this wonderful, wonderful human being. We are going to jump right into it because again, it's 1:00 a.m. I don't want to take too much time but I wanted to introduce her quickly. This is Hazel Keedle. She is a lecturer of midwifery and completed her PhD in 2021 at Western Sydney University in Australia. Hazel has more than 25 years of experience as a clinician in nursing and midwifery, educator, and researcher. Her research is – it might as well be 1:00 here Hazel. Hazel: You're doing great.Meagan: Her research is recognized internationally and focuses on midwifery practice, education, and women's experience in maternity care. Hazel is passionate about improving support for women during pregnancy, birth, and early transition to mothering. She is amazing. Right here in my very hands, I am holding a book that she wrote. It's called Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle. I definitely am going to suggest this and we are going to talk more about her book here in just a minute, but again, I don't want to take too much of her time so we are going to jump right into it and turn the time over to you to share all of your wonderful knowledge and of course, your story. Hazel: Sure, okay. Well, thank you for having me here. I really don't mind waiting up for you. Okay, so yeah. My name is Hazel Keedle and I'm originally from the U.K., but I moved to Australia 20 years ago now with a backpack and I never left. I came over here as a nurse and then I trained to be a midwife while I was here. I was kind of destined. My granny was a midwife in England and she told me that I would be one, so I followed what she said and I became a midwife here. And then, I wasn't particularly interested in vaginal birth after Cesarean at that point. I was just trying to get my head around what being a midwife was and what it meant. I quickly met my husband during my UgradG* as a midwife. We quite quickly got together and had a baby which was a planned home birth but ended up that he was being breech and I ended up having an emergency Cesarean because in my area at the time– this was 15 years ago– there wasn't anyone who supported breech vaginal birth. I knew that I would have to have a Cesarean. I didn't have a great experience and I didn't do too well with my health afterward. But then, which was not planned at all, I got pregnant again very quickly. There were only 4 months between my Cesarean and getting pregnant. When I did find out, which was a few months after that, so I was breastfeeding, I had to think about what I was going to do and I really didn't want to have a Cesarean. My whole first experience was the most hospitalized home birth you can have. I had pneumonia at 34 weeks with my first and then I had a Cesarean and I had mastitis and a childhood fever, so I was in the hospital three times. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Hazel: I was really sick and I really did not want to go through that again, but I also wasn't sure if I would get support to have a VBAC because there would be 13 months between them or 14 months, I thought, at that point. I did lots of reading. I was a midwife by this point and I dug my head into the numbers. I read the only book that was out there which was The Silent Knife which as you know, is very old and it was very old then, but it was really good at getting me the statistics. I then dated my reading. For a whole weekend, I shut myself in a room and just read and read and read and read. I came out of it freaked out because a paper had come out that year that said if it was less than 6 months between a Cesarean and conception, then you had a 2.7% chance of uterine rupture compared to less than 1%. I got a bit freaked out by those numbers. I came up to my hubby who is a very rational numbers man and I said, “I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't have a VBAC.” I told him the numbers and he said, “You've got over a 97% chance of everything being fine.” I was like, “Well, yeah.” It was more dangerous and get in a car and drive to the hospital. Why don't you just go for a VBAC?I adopted his idea and I thought that it was a great idea. I became dedicated to having a VBAC at that point. I didn't realize at the time it would shape my future career and life goals, but I stuck my head in the sand. I avoided antenatal care to be honest because I didn't want to hear the negativity but I was a midwife, so I was able to get someone to listen to my baby and did my blood pressure every time I went to work. I did plan a home birth for my VBAC, but all of my team couldn't be there at the time, so I transferred in. I had to fight during my labor. There was just lots of coercion, lots of “you must have your baby by 4:00 or you're going into a Cesarean”, and I had to just keep fighting. It was so hard to keep fighting when you are in labor. They also knew I was a midwife. I trained there, so I couldn't understand why I had to fight so hard. And then I actually pushed her out of my vagina at 4:00 on the dot. Meagan: Oh my gosh, no way. Hazel: Yeah. The time they were going to take me into theater was her birth time. It was amazing. I didn't know I could feel that high after doing something that was so hard, but I did and it left me with a couple of questions when I looked back and reflected on how I felt. First of all, I wondered if there were any other women who felt as amazing as I did. I really was on cloud nine. I felt like I was healed and that all of the medical stuff I had after my first was gone. But with that came a question of how does any other woman in Australia manage to have a VBAC with that much drama and with that much negativity during labor?Meagan: Yeah and pressure. Hazel: Yeah and I was a midwife. I could see through it, but how did other women who didn't have that knowledge? So I was left with those questions. I was at a community forum. We had a lot of access issues up here to our local maternity and there were lots of petitions and community action. I went over to one of the forums. I shared my VBAC story in that forum and there was a professor of midwifery there who said, who I'd never met before, “You know, you're a midwife. I think you should research this.” I stayed in contact and then about a year later, I started doing research with her. She was my supervisor for both my Master's Honors and then my PhD. Now, we work together on a lot of projects. So yeah. It was sharing my story in that location that started my research career. Well, I think having a VBAC started my research career but that started my formal research career. Now I'm here. She's about to turn 14 and I have done a Master's, a PhD, five or so papers on VBAC, maybe more, and written a book. So that's my story in a nutshell. Meagan: Those are amazing things. And written a book. It's so funny because you were like, “Yeah, it started,” but I think it had been with you for a while and then that inspired you and gave you the extra oomph. It was like, “Now I've gone through this and experienced this. How can I change this? How can I change this for everyone else?” I always had this desire for birth and a passion for babies. I would have wanted to be a labor and delivery nurse, and then I had my first C-section and was like, “Oh. That wasn't really what I wanted or what I envisioned.” Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: And then after my second, learning more about doulas and birth, and really the options, then also going through that second Cesarean, although it was healing and everything, just having a different experience, I was like, “Yeah. This is what I'm doing. This is what I want to do.” It's like it was always in you and it was always in me, but these experiences that we've had have lit the first. Hazel: Yeah, it became the drive. I've always been interested in research. I got an Honors degree when I was a nurse back in London, and so I had a bit of a passion for research and for reading research, but I think you have to have that real drive and reason for going on such a big path. And yeah, definitely. For me, it was not even how amazing I felt. It was just that question of, did other women feel that? Is it hard for everyone?There was one point when I had stayed overnight. I wish I hadn't. I wish I had gone straight home, but I had been coerced to stay overnight in the hospital. Midwives would be coming in and saying, “Are you the VBAC woman?” I thought, “What is this? Is this a zoo and I'm a prized animal that they are coming in to stare at?” It made me think that it actually was quite rare then to have a VBAC here. It was really so rare that they had to come in and go, “Are you the VBAC woman?”Meagan: “Are you the VBAC woman?” Yes. Hazel: Yeah. But I hadn't learned much about it in my training. I was working in the low-risk units, so we didn't offer VBAC in the hospital I was working in, so it was quite a rarity for me as well. Meagan: Yes. So tell me more about VBAC in Australia. Tell me more about what it's looking like, what it's seeming like, and what you've learned through all of your education. I would love to know. We talked about this in the beginning. I'm just here in Utah. We are actually very fortunate. We have a high VBAC rate here. I mean, Cesarean rates are still through the roof in general in my own opinion, but we still have a higher VBAC rate and we still have to fight for it. It isn't as uncommon, but I'd love to know more about your research and what you're seeing there in Australia. Hazel: Yeah. So what is your VBAC rate, out of interest, in Utah?Meagan: I'm trying to remember the exact. I will look it up. Hazel: I'm trying to think that the US in general is about 12% isn't it the last time I checked the numbers?Meagan: Yeah, that does sound right. Hazel: Interestingly, I do a lot of presentations on VBAC. When you look across the world, they really do vary from Finland with, I have a 50%, down to across to you guys at 12%. We match you. We actually don't have the high European numbers. We have 12% as well. Meagan: It says 23.9%. Hazel: Okay, so that's pretty good. I wish we had that. Meagan: Yeah, so it says in 2020, well, oh my gosh. 21.3% were Cesarean, but vaginal birth after Cesarean from 2017-2020 in Utah averages 23.9% overall. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: And then it breaks it down within the cities here. Hazel: Which is pretty good. I mean, I know that's not consistent across the U.S. because the national number comes right down. We do have varieties over here and those varieties are down to the model of care and access. So here in Australia, we have a public maternity system or a public hospital system that is paid through the taxpayer. In that system, where everyone gets free health care, they will be able to access a few different models depending on what's available in their area. They might have a midwifery group practice where they could see the same midwife throughout and there would be a few of them that were on call for free. It's part of the hospital service, but that is relatively new. That has really been rising in the last few years as the health services are increasing those models. We have the standard antenatal care which is where women see whichever midwife is on duty or whichever doctor is on duty and whoever is in the labor ward will look after them during labor and whoever is on the ward would look after them postnatally. We call it “standard care” but we also call it “fragmented care” because you see somebody different all of the time. Then we have– so outside of the hospital system, we have some smaller ones for first nations women, and for migrant women, there are some specific models as well. But then outside of the hospital system, we do have privately practicing midwives who are able to prescribe medications, get some money back from Medicare, and offer home birth services. Some of them also have visiting rights in hospitals. That is more state specific. We have more ** there than in any other state here in Australia for the visiting rights. Meagan: So then are you able to come over if a transfer were needed to happen and things like that, they could come over and perform their care? Hazel: Yeah, they could have an agreement with the local hospital, but that's a growing thing and it's more popular in some states than in others. Where I am, which is New South Wales, which is where Sydney is, there's only really one hospital that offers that in such a very big state. Meagan: Yeah. Hazel: And then we also have the private hospital as well where you would be through a private obstetrician. You would get that continuity, but it's obstetric care, not midwifery care. You may or may not see a midwife during your antenatal period and then you will have midwives along in the labor ward or in the private hospital, but with the private obstetrician you signed up for. So we've got a few different models of care and what we do know from the studies that have been done, the VBAC rates do vary across those models of care. They are higher with privately practicing midwives, so a lot of women who choose home birth are choosing it after a Cesarean and that's what I did my first study on which was their experiences. Then we have good rates in midwifery models of care such as the midwifery group practices and then we have low rates in private hospitals. They have higher repeat Cesarean rates and a lower VBAC rate in private hospitals with continuity of obstetric care. That's really how it looks. But obviously, we are a very big country with a lot of areas in between, so we will have hospitals that maybe don't offer birthing services, but a lot of our remote communities are a bit like Canada where all of them, I say in areas of Canada, they have some birthing in-country services. We are still a bit behind on that, so it really is a variety of services, but in most metropolitan hospitals, you'd get a private model, a public model, and midwifery models within that. Meagan: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love it. I wish so badly that I had the capabilities or I guess I was in a time in my life where I didn't have little, like little kids, where I could bounce around to not only different states but different countries and somehow observe birth and learn birth around the world. That is this dream of mine that I could understand birth from all areas other than just little Utah here. I have a doula partner who just came from Texas and birth is so different here in Utah than it is in Texas. What you're describing is so different. Obviously, there are similarities all around. We hear all of these stories and there are definite similarities. It's birth, but the way care is and everything, so yeah. One day. One day maybe I'll be able to bounce around in life, but I love hearing that. Hazel: That's right because only then you're limited then to really what is published and so some other countries that have higher VBAC rates– just across from us is New Zealand where they have a midwifery model of care and the numbers we can get from them, they don't have national data on this, they seem to have much higher VBAC rates to us, but then they aren't published very much on it, so it's really hard to know. Unless you're there, it's hard to get a sense of what's going on. Meagan: What's really going on, what they're doing, and why do they have such a high rate? Hazel: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: Other than maybe midwifery care. Hazel: There are some studies out there, especially in Europe, there are some studies that looked into the culture and how different that is, but not enough. Not enough to really give us an idea. Meagan: Absolutely. So, Ms. Hazel, I would love for you to share more about your book too. You have so many amazing things in this book. I'm going to hurry and just flip over to the table of contents, but it reminds me a lot about our VBAC course. It covers so many incredible things, these topics. Obviously, your VBAC journey is in there, your research journey which I think is amazing, your PhD journey, birth trauma, and experiences and symptoms of birth trauma which are so important. We don't talk about that enough. Seeking help and debriefing– again, something we don't talk about enough. How to access debriefing. I don't know if you want to cover any of that, but that's so important right there. You have so many things in this book. Do you want to cover some of your highlights? Sarah and I are both here in the states, but we would love to know more about this amazing book. By the way, listeners, we're going to have a link for this book if you want to purchase it and give it a read because it's going to be amazing for you. I promise you. Hazel: Oh thank you. Well, my publishers are in the U.S., so when I was writing it I very much had the U.S. in mind, Australia, and the U.K., so even when I looked at any resources in the book, I tried to find U.S. ones as well. Meagan: Yeah, I noticed. YOu have some Lamaze and everything in here. You have tables of words broken down and it does have U.S. things. That is something, I think, that is so amazing because a lot of our listeners are in the U.S. so it's super nice to be able to read something and have some resources for here where they are. Hazel: Yeah. The idea behind the book was I was towards the end of my Ph.D. journey and I used a methodology called feminist critical theory. Part of that is that you give back your research. You get your research. You get your data from women in the community, but you want to give back to transform that culture for the better. When I was really evaluating, “Well, how do I do that?” When I was writing my thesis, I was like, “Well, how am I giving back to my community?” I had research papers and I know people read research papers. You guys do and then you translate that evidence into your doula course. A lot of people do that. But I thought, “Maybe that's not everyone.” When I did my Australian VBAC survey, I asked what kind of resources people used, and there was a real want to have more books out there. I wondered if I could have this crazy pipe dream of writing a book and then I had the opportunity to do that, so I submitted my thesis in the October and by the December, I had signed a book contract. I was really keen while it was all fresh in my head to get it all out and down on paper.I think lockdowns were in my favor because I had to take leave because it was building up. I couldn't go anywhere so it was like, “Well, I will just sit and write this book then.” That's really how I used my time to do it. I put it together as my findings of my PhD. One of the first papers I wrote on my PhD journey was looking at all of the evidence that was out there. The title of the paper was, “The journey from pain to power.”That was a thread that went through all of my PhD journey. When I was then looking at, “Well, how do I write this book?” The term “journey” was very high up there. I thought, “Well, I go on that journey from pain to power.” That first thing is that pain and that is that previous Cesarean. One of the things I found out from my studies was that usually in the community, we have about a third of women say “yes” to experiencing birth trauma. That's the full state of birth trauma which includes psychological birth trauma. When I asked that question in my VBAC surveys– so all of these women have had at least one previous Cesarean– that was ⅔ of women that suggested birth trauma. We already know we have a highly traumatized group of women who have had a previous Cesarean, so that's why I started with that. I think it's really important. It certainly is. I was a home birth midwife for many years. I know you need to work that out and talk about it, and debrief about it before. You've got to work at that past to be able to look forward to the future. Meagan: Yeah. Well, and even recognizing it. Hazel: Yeah, that's a great one. Meagan: Sometimes, it's hard to recognize that you look at your experience as traumatic because I feel like so many times, we are mentally trained to tell ourselves, “Oh, we had a safe and healthy baby, so no. It's fine.” They suppress their trauma down. They're like, “No, I was fine. It's fine.”Sarah: We're led to believe that as well. Hazel: Yeah, absolutely. That's why I really brought in quotes and what it can look like for women and quotes from the stories that had been shared with me for people to go, “Maybe that is what I experienced. Maybe those symptoms are what I am experiencing.” I start that chapter off with, “Go grab yourself, in pure English style, go grab yourself a cup of tea and a chocolate bar because this chapter will be tough,” just to recognize that this might not be the easiest one. It might not be where people want to start off with. They might go back to that. But yes. I started off with that pain and then I used what I found through my PhD and what I did in my qualitative. So in my PhD, I had qualitative and that moved into quantitative. So the qualitative is all of the feelings, experiences, and exploration, and then the quantitative is all of the stats and the numbers. When I did the qualitative, what I did was I had this crazy idea of designing an app. Women, after their appointments with their healthcare provider, would come home and record their experiences on the app. They would do that after every appointment and then I interviewed them afterward as well. I had some really rich data. I had 52 recordings. I'm so grateful to those women. I'll be forever indebted to those women. Then I had all of these interviews as well, so I had these really rich stories. We use that term in qualitative is rich data. Sarah: These were appointments leading up to their birth or after in the postpartum period after their Cesarean? Hazel: Right, this is during their pregnancy. Sarah: Okay.Hazel: So they were planning to have a VBAC. That's what their plan was and then they would go and see their healthcare providers and then they would do recordings for me. They were given some prompts and questions, but it became very organic like it was more like a journal. They would start going, “Hi, Hazel. I'm so many weeks now and this is what just happened.” It was a really novel way. The research hadn't been done like that before, so it was really interesting. What I was able to do was a narrative analysis which was comparing all of their stories against each other to look for commonalities and differences. What I found is that there were these four factors that impacted how they felt after the birth because I interviewed them all after the birth as well. Those four factors, if they were really positive on those four factors across them and they had a cumulative effect. One had an impact on the other. They felt better about their birth experience regardless of the birth experience. If they felt lower on those four factors, they were more devastated after their birth experience.It didn't mean that those who had a vaginal birth didn't feel more positive than those that had a repeat Cesarean because it kind of was that as well, but there was a lot of resolution that could come when you had a repeat Cesarean, and felt higher in those factors. Those factors are then what I go into in the book. There's a chapter dedicated to each one of those factors. They are having control, so having control over your choices, your wishes, and your birth outcomes. Then there's having confidence, so having confidence in your ability to have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, but also, having confidence in your healthcare providers' belief in you. That was quite surprising for me how pertinent that was. Women really wanted that. It makes sense, doesn't it? You really want that person to believe in you and believe that you can do what it is that you want to do. And then there's having a relationship, so that was the relationship that you have with your healthcare provider whether that's one that is developed such as continuity of care or whether it's with a different person each time, and even then, not all continuity is the same and that really came out in the study. And then the last one is being active in labor. That seemed a bit of a strange one to add on, but women who felt they were really able to do everything that they wanted to do during labor and birth, being as active as they could, as upright as they could, felt better after their birth experience. If they then ended up with a repeat Cesarean, then they still felt very positive because they had done everything that they could compared to not having the opportunity to be upright and vocalizing that. Meagan: Yes, yes. We have found that. I have found that personally in my group of doulas. We have found that even if it doesn't end the way they want, there are bumps and curves. It's labor and birth, but along the way, if they felt like they were in charge and were able to be in the positions they wanted and call the shots a little bit more, overall after, they felt immensely more positive and happy about their experience. Hazel: Yeah, absolutely. That's it. In the book then, I really go into what they all mean. The control chapter might take some people by surprise because I actually know a lot of women, especially when they are reflecting on their previous Cesarean which may have been, let's just take probably the most common example these days. Induction, they're having their first baby, they get close to the date, post dates, they get encouraged to have an induction. The induction doesn't quite go to plan. They have a cascade of interventions and have a Cesarean. When they are then planning for the next birth before or during the pregnancy, one of the common themes is getting armed with knowledge. It's like, “Okay. Now I need to know everything about labor, birth, and pregnancy. I really want to be able to call the shots.” There's a bit of grieving in that time of, “Why did I say yes? Why didn't I say no?” A bit of self-blame. I think as women, we are kind of hardwired to blame ourselves for everything, especially blaming our bodies because we are never quite right. The media never lets us think we are right because we are either too big or too small or our boobs are not quite right or whatever. Meagan: Right.Hazel: There's nothing to make us feel better and then we blame ourselves for not being able to stand up against the patriarchal medical system. I actually start the control chapter looking at the impact of the patriarchy in medicine and especially in obstetrics and how the different waves of feminism have impacted that and also the impact of reproductive justice which is something that is obviously very important in the U.S., but also over here with our host nations' women and migrant communities that have come to Australia. I look at all of that and really frame it to go, “You know, it's actually not your fault. It's actually really hard to stand up for yourself and say no when you are at the bottom of a really oppressive ladder.” Not to come and say, “Well, you can't do anything,” because then I explore all of the ways of what you can do to help that and actually how you need all of those factors together to really build your position. But almost to take that guilt off and also understand where we've got to today with a hospital-based maternity system, why it is like it is, and the impact of all of those different changes in society that have got to where we are today. So yeah. Those are the different chapters. Some of them have activities that you can do. There are a few guess righters in there. And then one of my favorite parts, probably because I didn't have to write it, but I put a Facebook post out and asked for women who had any VBAC stories that they wanted to print in the book. I wanted a VBAC with just something a little bit different or complicated risk or whatever. I have got 12 stories of women from around the world including the U.S. who've had VBAC with something a little bit different there. It might be after multiple Cesareans like your story or it might be at home or it might be with a larger body which, as we know, gets a lot of stigma in maternity care. There's one that is a VBAC after a uterine rupture. There's one after a classical scar. There are all of these different stories at the back of the book in full with pictures, but I also weaved them into some of the chapters earlier as well. I love those stories. Some are short. Some are in poem form and some are really long. I just kept them as they were and put them in the book. Just really so women can identify and go, “Maybe I'm not quite sure what Hazel is saying,” and then they get to that story and they are like, “Oh, actually I really relate to that person.”Meagan: Yeah. That's one of the reasons why we're here on The VBAC Link podcast, right? All of these stories, some of them you might not connect to as deeply, and then some you're like, “Oh my gosh. That's me. I felt that. I had that. That's my story. It's like they're taking it out of my own mouth.”Hazel: Absolutely. It is so important. Meagan: We've had that many times where it's like, “Whoa. That was almost creepy how similar those births were,” and then to be able to connect and be like, “But look. They went on and they did it. This is what they did.” It's so empowering. Just flipping through these beautiful pictures is absolutely stunning. Absolutely stunning pictures. I'm sure these stories are going to, again, relate to so many people out there that may not even know that they're going to relate to them until they read them. Hazel: Yeah. I do mention in the– oh my gosh. I'm testing myself on which chapter that one's in now. I think it might be Confidence about really relating to stories and listening to podcasts. I mention that you really need to tap into your peers because we have very large social media groups now and pages to follow full of positive VBAC stories. That's important in there. I do also add there, it does say that the title is Birth After Cesarean. I do throughout the book look at, you are choosing the best birth for you. You need to prepare for both, but you may either have or choose a gentle Cesarean. There is a chapter in there as well about what a gentle Cesarean is, what evidence says, and maybe some of the things you might think of if you have a repeat Cesarean. There is that part of it as well because I explore how important it is to really if you're going to be in control of everything or have more control, then you have to be aware of all options that might happen and be able to still have the best birth for you regardless of that outcome. Meagan: Yeah. We just posted– we reposted I should say– from Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. I think that is how you say it. Hopefully, I'm not butchering her last name. She's from Australia actually. She's an OB and she posted this video of a gentle Cesarean where the mom was actively involved in giving birth to her baby with her own hands. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: For me in my Cesareans, both of them, my arms were strapped down in a T and after my second daughter was born, they undid the one arm and I did have skin-to-skin. I was able to hold her with that one arm, but watching this video was captivating. It's a 30-second thing, but I watched it probably 40 times because I'm like, “Oh my gosh.” I looked at the mom. I looked at the baby. I looked at everyone around her. There was no curtain. She was able to be totally a part of her birth. I'm like, “Yes. This is what we need.” I literally texted a midwife here in Utah. I'm like “I know I'm a really small fish in a big ocean, but let me know if there's anything I can do from my end to start bringing this option to people.” We got so many messages after like, “Whoa. How can I get that? What do I need to do?” It looks like in Australia, there are multiple videos of this happening. Hazel: I will add that it's not common and it really does depend on who your OB is. Meagan: Exactly. Hazel: But a few years ago, one of my dear friends did her PhD as a video ethnography of skin-to-skin in theater. She was videoing Cesareans and seeing really what happens to what enables skin-to-skin in theater and what doesn't. It was really fascinating. She was one of my PhD buddies. One of the Cesareans she saw was a gentle Cesarean with the woman reaching down to grab her baby. She wrote this beautiful article, but it was actually in a midwifery college magazine that doesn't exist anymore. I could say that she had written it, but I couldn't find my copy of it. I emailed because we are friends. I emailed her and I said, “Look. Do you have a PDF copy because I really want to read it?”She sent it to me. I read it. I wrote about it in that chapter and then I sent the chapter to her. I said, “Could you just read it to make sure that I've said all the right things?” because that's her expert area. She was happy with what I had written, so that was good. Yeah. It really is down to providers. But really, the more women that ask for it, the more pressure there will be to explore it. There are a lot of resources and videos out there now that can show people how to do it. Meagan: And how to do it and that it is possible. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: I think sometimes it's like, “No. That's impossible. It's a sterile environment. We can't have extra bodies in the operating room.” But look. Hazel: The woman's already there. There's not going to be an extra body. Meagan: Right. Hazel: And really, the ones that I've seen really, they will do the surgical scope with their hands. They will have double gloves on so when they get to the point of needing to reach down, they can take that first pair of gloves off, and then you've got the sterile ones on underneath. There are lots that can be done. Even just lowering the screen. There's often still a screen there, but it's lowered so they can reach down and then take the baby, and then it can go back up while they do the suturing. Meagan: Absolutely, yeah. Hazel: There are ways it can be done, but it's just having people understand why. I remember being in an OB's office with a client, a woman I was caring for. She was exploring her options after having a Cesarean. She mentioned having a gentle Cesarean. His attitude was, “Well, if I offer that, then nobody will want to plan a VBAC.” I was like, “That's actually not going to happen. Don't worry. It's just giving an option to women. Women still really want to have a vaginal birth after Cesarean. That's not going to go down. Your rates are not even that high anyways so don't stress. This is what you can do to support them.” But yeah. That was an excuse for not wanting to go there because it sounds a little bit too hard. Meagan: Mhmm. Sarah: Yeah. That just goes back to sharing our stories too because I feel like without sharing those experiences like we were saying, you're not going to know what your options are if you're not being informed about them. If others are doing this and more people are asking for it, then it's going to open that door and allow other people to be in control of what they want for their birth. Meagan: Exactly. Hazel: And throughout the book, it really is based on evidence. I am a researcher with a very large library of articles and I did dive into them. Straight after the trauma chapter, I go into what the evidence is for the different choices. I have a really deep dive into uterine rupture and then what was meant to be part of a chapter actually ended up on its own which was Can I Have a VBAC If…? and then I look into different scenarios or issues that potentially people will say, “Can I have a VBAC if I've got this?”So that is all evidence-based with numbers and going through what current data is out there. Meagan: Right. There are a lot of percentages in your book. I love it. There are graphs. You may not think that this may impact care, but she has this, it's Figure 2 in the book. It's talking about the length of time for pregnancy appointments under different models of care. You may not right now think the length of an appointment matters, but I can tell you right now firsthand from experience that when I had with my VBAC kiddo, I switched care at 24 weeks. I had an OB and he was great. I seriously loved the guy. He's wonderful and I still think he's wonderful. But then I switched care to a midwifery model-based care. The difference between my visits and again, OBs will spend time, but for me, the difference between my visits was incredible. I actually looked forward, really looked forward to visits with my midwife. I was always greeted with a ginormous hug. She never walked in without giving me a big hug and saying, “How are you doing? Really, how are you?” and then would sit down. We would just have a discussion. She became my best friend. I could just open up to her. She spent quality time. For me, it really helped me as I was entering into this next stage of birth to feel confident in her. I was so comfortable because of all the time that she spent with me. Hazel: I love that. I do love that graph. That came out of my VBAC in Australia survey. We asked what model of care they had and then I asked, “What was the time spent at your appointments?” When we looked at the data, it was just so obvious that the shorter time frame, so maybe 5-15 minutes was certainly with obstetric-led care, and then the 20 minutes plus– certainly, with the privately practicing midwives it was more, and then an hour usually was with the midwifery models of care. That was important because relationships take time. In that relationship factor, you need to have someone by your side who understands your wishes and your trauma if you have some which, as I said, ⅔ of women did, and understands what you want, what you are planning for, and what you are hoping for. Just understanding you and how you tick. Certainly, in my years as a continuity of care midwife, in all models of care, you really, for me as a midwife, I really want to know the person that I'm caring for so that I can see those changes, those really subtle changes in behavior even during labor and also you can pick up when things really aren't quite right and that you might need an extra hug at that time or an extra kind word. Meagan: Yeah. Hazel: That takes a lot of trust. Relationships in healthcare, I believe, should be based on trust and equity. That takes time. The very simple graph, there's no way I could have done an appointment in ten minutes because I have to have a cup of tea at least. There's no way I could drink a cup of tea in just five or ten minutes. So sit down, have a cup of tea, and learn about what's going on.The physical part, feeling the baby, the blood pressure, that you do at some point, but that to me, finding out what's going on for the woman and how she's feeling and what's going on with the family, that is far more important. That takes time. When we saw that in the graph format, it was like, “Oh perfect. That exactly shows what we are saying.” A relationship takes time. Most of us don't usually marry someone that we haven't really or get into a relationship with someone that we haven't spent a fair bit of time with and figured out whether we like them or not. We understand that those relationships are important. I think that when you are only doing something a few times in your life, but you will remember it for the rest of your life, then you really want to choose the team and the support people there. That includes your healthcare provider who completely knows you and completely understands where you've come from and where you want to go.Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. I feel like I could talk to you until 4:00 a.m. in Australia. Hazel: I'm wide awake now. Meagan: My family and I are getting ready. We are going on a trip this weekend. Your book is going to be in my hand the entire airplane ride there and back because I just want to soak in every single word that you wrote in this book. I am so excited. I definitely encourage everyone. I haven't even read it yet, but I've skimmed it I should say. I started, but I haven't had time to just sit down and read. It's going to be amazing I can already tell just by browsing through this and listening to you.Oh my gosh. There is something that you say here. It's in the very beginning. This is where I have stopped reading, but it was something that impacts me personally because I feel emotional. It's kind of funny. I felt like this. I felt like a failure and I feel like there are so many times in life when we can– like you said, we beat ourselves up. If it's not about our body, it's about something else, but failure is a word that comes in. I actually have recently, today actually, it's going to be launching. I recently made a reel about failure and how there is no such thing as failure, but this is something if you don't mind, I'm going to quote you reading this book. It's page 10 everybody if you have the book. “In this book, I will talk about planning an elective Cesarean, planning a VBAC, having an elective Cesarean, having a VBAC, or having a repeat emergency Cesarean. There is no failure. You haven't failed if you choose one birth mode but have another. You are amazing and your choices are valid. Be true to you.” That, to me, is so powerful. “Be true to you.” And no, you did not fail no matter what birth mode you chose or what birth mode ended up happening, right? Don't you feel that, Sarah?Sarah: Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think it touches back into the trauma too that maybe you are not aware of that you've experienced and really fear-clearing and taking the time to process your previous birth knowing that whatever the outcome is for your next journey, you're not that failure. You're fine and perfect. You're enough. Hazel: Absolutely. Meagan: Mhmm. You are enough. Yes. Hazel: The research, when you read it, is really full of emotive damaging words when it comes to VBAC. Saying that women are a trial of scar or a trial of labor, we are not criminals for wanting to have a vaginal birth and when we use that language in research, then it means OBs and clinicians and nurses and midwives will use that language as well and tell you that you're on trial. What do you imagine when you think of that? You're not thinking about, “Is this uterine scar going to survive?” You get a feeling that you're a criminal and you're not just because you want to have a vaginal birth. I even challenge researchers. Take that language out. You don't need it. It's unnecessary. I've been writing a paper with some OBs over here recently and just saying, “I won't be on it if you use the term ‘trial.' I won't be on it if you use the term ‘failed' or ‘succeeded'. Just take the emotive words out and call it what it is.”We have to show by example as well and not have that language in the papers that are influencing policy, guidelines, and practitioners. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: There is such power in the language and the words that we use. Absolutely. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Well, Hazel. It has been such an honor to chat with you. Like I said, I feel like we could go on and on and on. Maybe we just need to have you back on. Maybe we need to do something even bigger and do a webinar with you because you have such a wealth of knowledge and we're so grateful for you. Like I said everybody, we will have the link for her book Birth After Cesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth in our show notes. So Hazel, before we go, do you want to share where everyone can find you? I'm going to be sharing you all over our social media as well. We're going to have everything in the show notes, but tell people where we can find you. Hazel: Yeah, sure. I'm on Instagram at @hazelkeedle. I'm on Facebook at VBAC Matters or Hazel Keedle, VBAC Researcher. That's where I share my book information but also future research that I'm doing as well. I'd love to come on and do a webinar with you and talk further about this anytime even at 2:00 in the morning. Meagan: Even at 2:00 in the morning! You are amazing. We are so grateful to you. Seriously, thank you so much, Hazel. Yeah. I can't wait to share this episode with the world. Hazel: Thank you for having me. Sarah: You know, a lot of what we talk about in the episode is so important and so true to how I feel too. I think calling out trauma has been something that's really near and dear to my heart and something that I had to do to prepare for my own VBAC, so I definitely recommend anybody that is going through this journey to make sure that you are taking the time to really heal from that previous birth and taking time to process and doing some fear clearing and even physical healing from the scar and doing scar massage and such like that. Also, I really think it's important to find that support and build that relationship like Hazel was talking about. Make sure you have somebody that you are able to build a relationship with and feel comfortable with because that's going to matter so much when it comes to your birth. And also, finding a doula that you have a good relationship with, not just your provider. I think those are really main things that I really try to instill in anyone that's going for a VBAC. Meagan: Absolutely. I 100% agree and Sarah, we are so happy to have you in our VBAC Link doula community. Can you tell everybody where they can find you as well? Sarah: Yeah, sure. I am in Simpsonville, South Carolina. It's in upstate South Carolina. More commonly, I guess you'd be familiar with Greenville, South Carolina. I am in that area. You can find me, mostly I hang out on Instagram, so either @sarah_marie_bilger or Entering Motherhood. You can find me there on Instagram. We're actually planning on starting up local VBAC support groups.Meagan: Oh, amazing. Sarah: So if anybody is around and in the area and interested in doing that, there's going to be me and another doula in the area. We're excited to start that and really provide in-person support for people either that have had Cesareans, may be thinking of a VBAC, or really just any realm of Cesarean/VBAC. If you've already had your VBAC and you want to come share your story of success to motivate and help women that are preparing for it as well, we're going to include story sharing and different topics to cover. Meagan: Absolutely amazing. Awesome, awesome. When all of that information is available if you wouldn't mind shooting that over to us, we will make sure that the world knows that. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for co-hosting with me today. It was such an honor to have you. Sarah: Thanks for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Today's conversation fits under the P of Product of the 7Ps of Humane Marketing. Today I'm speaking to an online bestie based in Norway. Solveig Petch [she/her] who goes by Petchy is a brand strategist and designer for values-driven business owners who want to build brands their way; without compromising their integrity or resorting to predatory business tactics. She believes that building an impactful and profitable brand can be done without screwing people over or working yourself into a pulp. From her home office in rural Norway, Petchy crafts strategic brand identities for clients all over the world. She's passionate about helping business owners discover and define their brands' unique purpose and personality, find the confidence to own their sh*t — and tap into their uniqueness to spark meaningful connections and attract more of those omg, yes! clients. She is also the creator of the Brand it!™ framework, and host of the Brand it! with Petchy podcast. In this episode, you'll learn about building community through your email list as well as...   Personal branding vs. branding: what's the difference Branding vs marketing: what's the difference there? Pros and cons of using our name in our brand Alternatives if we're not branding our name? What if you have outgrown your current brand? Branding architecture What's the future of branding? And so much more Solveig's Resources   Solveig's Website Brand it! with Petchy Podcast Mini Email Course Brand Archetype - A Quick Guide Connect with Solveig on: LinkedIn Facebook Instagram   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] Hey pet so good to hang out with you today.  Petchy: Hello, Sarah. And likewise, thank you so much for inviting me.  Sarah: Oh yeah. When I looked at, , you know, our conversations, me being on, your podcast and doing some other things together, all of a sudden I'm like, I'm pretty sure I have PE on the podcast already and I realized I hadn't. So I'm [00:05:00] so glad we get this chance now to, yeah. To talk about branding. , I think I did tell you that we're featuring this episode under the P of product of the humane marketing podcast or humane marketing mandala. And so, yeah, it's this idea of creating a product and what we kind of discussed before, , recording is this idea of, well, how, how does branding fit into us being the product? Maybe a lot of entrepreneurs. That's what it is. We are the product, we are the brand. , and so, yeah, that's what we wanna talk about today. So maybe just kind of, yeah, take us right in there. I don't do long introductions. I kind of already introduced you in the, in the intro. So just take us into this concept of branding that quite honestly, I think you know this, and, and I know it, it's a scary thing sometimes for entrepreneurs, this word [00:06:00] branding, it sounds so official. And, and so, yeah. Tell us your approach to brand.  Petchy: Yeah. So, when we spoke before this, this recording session, we were chatting a little bit about, you know, why do you actually need a brand? So maybe that's a good starting point. We can look at at that and then go into what a brand is. Mm-hmm and isn't, and then we'll just take it from there. So the thing with branding is. Some people are like, well, do I, do I really need a brand? But the thing is you already have a brand and that is whether you like it or not. So the question, I guess, is more, is it's a deliberate brand that you are actively taking control of. And that's, I think where a lot of especially smaller business owners go a bit wrong because they have a misconception in their heads about what a brand actually is. So. Because a brand, [00:07:00] a lot of people tend to think it's just the logo, the colors and how your visual brand looks. Right. But that is really just the tip of the iceberg. And your brand is really it's. What other people think of you mm-hmm and that's something that you just cannot ever be a hundred percent in control of. Cause you can't go into people's. Brains and dictate, you know, this is how you should feel about my brand. , so you can't control it fully, but you can try and steer people's. Views of your brand in the right direction. So a brand is what other people think of you, but branding is what you do to try and influence how people see your brand. Yeah. Yeah. And within branding. So branding are the actual activities that you do, right. , and that can include a lot of things like positioning, messaging, your brand identity, of course. , but. Your brand [00:08:00] identity, isn't just the visual either. It's your verbal brand identities. So all of those actions that you take to try and influence people's perception of your brand, that is branding I love that so much. So actually that cleared  Sarah: up a little bit. Yeah. That, that definition of a brand is what people think of you, , when, when not there often, right? yeah. And then, and then branding is what you do. Also, let me do the question. Well, then what's difference between branding and marketing. Obviously we know that we overlap on certain things, but what would you say is the difference between branding and marketing?  Petchy: I, I would say that branding is more who you are and how people see you and then, or how you want people to see you. And marketing is more how you tell people about who you are, like, how do you talk about your products? How do you talk about your brand and how do you reach [00:09:00] those people that you need to reach your ideal? Audience and those like marketing activities, I guess, is like, what do you do to get your brand out there? right.  Sarah: Okay. So there's the brand, which is again, what people think of you branding. You said it's doing the thing. So, so because marketing, you said is then communicating, right? Yes. That would be a good word for community. Yeah. That's a really good way of putting it. And so when, when you say branding is doing, what is the doing.  Petchy: That can look so different from brand to brand. But it's those, so it's, it's your visual identity. It's how you speak as well. It's how you put yourself out in the world. So I think. For, for smaller business. And it's really important to re remember that your, your visual branding is actually just a tiny, tiny piece of the whole branding puzzle. Mm-hmm . Yeah. You also [00:10:00] need to, once you've established your brand's foundations and you brand core, and you know who you are, you know what you stand for, you know, your values, you, you rock solid on that part. Then you have to go out and like actively. Infuse that into every activity that you do for your brand. Right. So, and that, isn't just when you go to do your marketing, but it's also when you, , so say when you recruit people, how you build your company culture, that has to be rooted in your brand's core, but also how you treat people when they come to you with complaints, for instance, on like, so your customer service representatives, how should they. Behave when they act on behalf of your brand. Right. What, where do you spend your money? You know, when you invest your money or buy services from, from other brands, are you conscious of where you're putting your money and whether that's aligns with your core values? [00:11:00] Because if, if there's a mismatch there. People are going to figure it out and it's not going to be good for your brand. Let's just put it that way.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. And, and thank you for those examples. , I'm currently working with the, a company for, LinkedIn profile for their executives and they did send me their branding guidelines and it's like a document with like a hundred pages or so. And so. That shows that, , they have clear guidelines about their brand and yes, that includes visuals. But it, for example, I always ask, what kind of tone do you want your LinkedIn profile to have? And so they have examples of tone in that branding document. So that would be the difference between marketing and again, branding is it's yes, it's doing things, but it's more like guidelines for how you are then gonna market. and that's my thinking or my understanding of it.  Petchy: Yeah. So your, your brand [00:12:00] strategy in a way is what informs every single business action that you take, right? Including marketing. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. , cuz you could put it that way.  Sarah: That's good. Yeah. We often hear the term also personal branding. So where does that come in and how is that different from, you know, the branding that we're talking. Petchy: Well, I kind of guess it's, it's in the name. There's a clue in the name, personal branding is more like how, how are you putting yourself out into the world and how are you being conscious about how you want other people to see you? But what I find is that with smaller businesses, smaller brands, where there is one person who is the main, character of the brand, I guess, or product of the brand. As, you said earlier, I find that the. Get really blurry mm-hmm between like the personal brand and the actual brand. And to a certain extent, I think that's how it has to be for the smaller brands. If that makes  Sarah: sense. [00:13:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Because at least for my humane marketing, I always say bring more of you to your marketing because who I mainly talk to is entrepreneurs, but I even feel like the, the bigger brands. We do have this trend of wanting to make it more personal. So it, I would say personal branding somehow even applies to bigger brands. , it is just that it's probably gonna be more worldview and value oriented than specific to just one person,  Petchy: right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that. I actually, I don't think that as a solo business owner or a small business owner, that you can remove yourself a hundred percent from your brand mm-hmm. Because with the smaller brands, you, you just, you can't rely as heavily on sheer size, you know, or your market share or, or your reputation. So that personal connection, that human to human connection becomes more important, really because you wanna build trust. [00:14:00] And that trust is much, much easier to gain for a smaller brand, if there's a personal connection, human to human. So I guess that's a strong argument in itself. Mm-hmm um, whereas like a big household brand that everybody knows about, they probably don't need that same level of human to human connection in the, in the big scale of things, but on, on a more personal level, The human to human connection becomes important. And that's when it's really important that, so if you, if you are a small brand now, and then you have big plans and you grow, and then you are becoming a bigger brand that human to human connection will go, it will trickle down into your employee level rather than yourself. And that's when it's important that your employees are on board with the brand values and the brand approach and like the brand personality so that they can act. On behalf of your brand. Yeah. And create, create those connections yeah.  Sarah: For your brand. And that's [00:15:00] not easy. That's not an easy job, especially if you have like a huge brand, every, store clerk and everybody needs to be informed about those values and  Petchy: yeah. Yeah. That's where it can fall apart. If you aren't clear on those foundations. Right. Day one. Yeah, because if you are not clear on them yourself, and then as your team grows, it's going to get more and more difficult to communicate that to your team so that they can take that and act on it. So I would say. Even, that's why it's so important, even for the smaller businesses to have a think about these things, even if it's still just the early days or even if it's still just you Sarah: Yeah. Quotation marks for, for those who are not watching the video. yeah. Yeah. What it makes me think also obvious is, if you are just a one, person brand, , a lot of the first things you need to decide is yeah. On the [00:16:00] name of your business and on your domain name that you're gonna reserve your website. And so there's always this question. Well, do I use my name? As my brand or as my website domain or, or do I use, you know, a name for my business and then use that as a domain name. So kind of like, what are the pros and cons of using your name or not using your name?  Petchy: Oh, well again, this is very individual. Yeah. So I guess my. My first thing that I wanna say is you don't have to do anything if it doesn't feel right for you. So it is not like you have to use your name to build a, like a brand centered around you as a person. And it totally depends on your circumstances. , for some people it really makes sense to use their name and they want to use their name, that comfortable using the name and putting it out there. Maybe they know that, okay, I want this business to be centered around me. Maybe it's not even going [00:17:00] to grow. And that in that case, it just really makes sense to, , to use your name as a brand name and build on that personal brand. But there are businesses who are run by just one person who also like, can absolutely have a very different brand name. Right. So I think. I think it's very personal decision to make, and it depends a little bit on what, what is it that you're putting out there? So for a, for a coach, for instance, or someone who works with a very sort of tight closed, personal connection with their clients, it maybe makes a lot more sense to be using your name. Whereas if you are selling a product or if you're selling or a program, a one to, oh, a program or one to many mm-hmm , , Service then it makes more sense to have a, a brand name that's separate from your own name. Right. But that doesn't mean that you have to [00:18:00] remove yourself completely from your brand. , So I, I guess what I'm saying is it, it kind of gets down to brand architecture and how you want to build the layers of your brand as the founder. Sarah: Mm we'll get to that term in a minute. Cuz I think there's more to UN unpack under the term brand architecture. Now we're getting like super into it. , now we're gonna get geeky. exactly super geeky. , Yeah. What, what came up for me also is, you know, kind of my evolution of, of brand. So I have my website, Sarah and acro, and that's where I built my LinkedIn consulting, brand over the last decade or so. And so that was. , very clear to me, this is me as the LinkedIn consultant and, and, and I never, obviously you can't use LinkedIn in the brand, so that was already kind of a limitation, I guess, in that yeah. Needs to be taken into consideration. You can't just make up a brand name using, you know, [00:19:00] existing terms and, and names. , and then. You know, started thinking about the gentle business revolution and, and gentle marketing and, and, you know, the story behind that trademark mess. And so that's kind of another thing that I guess if you go with a brand name, then you are really, and I did not realize that I just went, you know, very naively into that thing. , but you do get into other territories where all of a sudden. It's not just your name anymore. , you're claiming a brand name and, you know, the story that happened to me, , you know, it published a book two weeks after I got a seasoned desist letter that I cannot use that name, gentle marketing anymore. So in a way it does feel like there's more considerations to think of when you are using you. Words and make up your own brand name rather than just using your cause. Nobody can, [00:20:00] you know, kind of season desist your name. That's your name? You are. No,  Petchy: nobody can, nobody can go after you using your name. So there's safety in that, of course as well. Yeah. But I guess if you are a person who isn't super keen on being the face of your brand, Then one way to do that is to focus, your efforts more on like branding your products or your services, or maybe your signature method, finding like a brand name for those. And then. Still remaining in the background or the foreground, however much you're comfortable with as the creator of So, , for instance, I have a, a framework that I've, , spent probably 20 something years developing. , and I call it the branded framework and I then can say that I'm, I'm the creator of that framework, right? Yeah. So if that, at some point, if that grows bigger than me, Yeah. I don't know if it will. , , I don't have any fixed plans for that, but if it does, if it, if it blows up and it gets bigger than me, [00:21:00] then I can still be, I can still, say that I'm the creator of that framework. Yeah. Yeah. So I would then possibly lead with my framework rather than leading with my name. Exactly. You would take a new domain name. What's right. Yeah, what's right. And what's wrong.  Sarah: Is no, it's very individual and it's a personal choice. It's personal choice. And it comes back to your definition of success. And yet it's not an easy choice because so often we hear either one or the other being the right. Decision, right. Oh, you gotta scale and go big and you want to exit, you know, your, your business at one point and that's why you need a brand or on the other hand is no, you want that personal connection. And that's why you need to use your name as your brand. Well, the pens, you know? Yeah. You need to actually think about how you see this business. Do you want to grow it? And if you don't, well, you're perfectly fine using your name and, and, and for me, even if you do. [00:22:00] You  Petchy: can still use your, your name. Exactly. You see? I mean like, yeah, you see big brand names based off a real person's name all the time where you know that they are this huge brand with lots of employees, worldwide presence. And it's still exactly person's name at the top. There's no  Sarah: correct answer. Really? No. And I  Petchy: think that's something that's one of my pet peeves in the business world. This whole notion that my way is the right way. And then you have three or four different people claiming that it's their way. That it's the only way. Right. And really there is no right or wrong answer. It's only down to you what path you like to take. Yeah. And, and you can course correct along the way. So if you, if you start out using your own name for instance, and you feel like that's not. It's not quite right. Then you can, you can twist it and you can take a different turn.  Sarah: Yeah. You know, what I noticed do Petchi is it's, it's easier for people to [00:23:00] be told this is the right way, right? They're like, oh, this is the easy answer that I, you know, I'm looking for. And so. When we tell 'em, oh, it's up to you, you know, you have the choice then they're like, oh, I don't know. And then, so really what we're saying here is like, if you feel like you are don't know which way to go, well, sit with it, then actually do the work and figure out, well, what. Do I want to do with this business? Do I want to grow it? What's my definition of success, all these questions that take some deeper work, because yeah, the gurus day will tell you, it's only this way or it's only that way. Mm.  Petchy: And of course it's easy. It's I mean, I like the idea of just being able to take someone else's approach and make it work for me outta the box. But I think in reality, That works for very few people. Yeah. And I see it all the time when I work with my clients and the work that I do with my clients. [00:24:00] I will never design just a logo for a client for instance, and that BEC that's because I, I need them to do that deep in a work first, so I can do a, a good job and the resistance there to actually go and do that deep work is, is present in. 90 something percent of all of my clients when they come to me and they're like, oh, I just need a logo. I just wanna want it to look good. And oh, do I really need to look into these deep questions? It's, it's hard. and I'm like, well, you really do need to. And that's why the process takes longer than just like a couple of weeks to, to complete as well, because these are. Really big, really heavy questions and they take time to process. , yeah, for,  Sarah: I really feel like we do the same groundwork because it's the same with the clients who just want marketing, you know, they just want clients. And so it's like, okay, just tell me how I need to market. Right. Do I need to be on Facebook on Instagram? Like, no, you need to actually go into [00:25:00] these deep questions. And I feel like. That's what we have in common. You then go into branding and I go into marketing, but the deep core level, figuring out, you know, who you are and what you want that needs to come first in both cases.  Petchy: It does. Yeah. And what I will say also is after that initial period of resistance and feeling like, oh, it's too hard. It's too big. I can't do this. Once they start to. Like find the little golden nuggets within themselves that, that they already had. Like, all of this is already, inside. You, you just need to extract them. And sometimes you just need someone to help you. like, right. , that sort your thoughts around things, but really nobody else. But you can do the actual work of doing that in a work. And, and then. What I find is when people start to find those golden nuggets within themselves and they have those aha moments, they emerge on the other side [00:26:00] of that, really quite what feels like a bit of a Rocky road to them, I think. And they emerge with such clarity. Mm-hmm . That it's, , it's amazing to see the transformation and how they then talk about their brand or talk about themselves as a brand differently. Yeah. Afterwards  Sarah: mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's kind of like the, the labyrinths I talk about in the marketing, like we're human book, you go in you rumble, you have to ask all these deep questions, then you stand in the middle of the labyrinths you rise. You realize how you are different, , from everybody else. And then you walk back into the world and you resonate, right? Because you are now clear and you can tell these stories that, yeah. That just resonate with people. And that's what the branding. Does you know that deep foundational branding, not the, not the logo, the logo doesn't do that. Right. Cause there's not, yeah, not enough deep inner work. , that's amazing. [00:27:00] Yeah. I wanna, I wanna kind of come to some other questions as well. Well, the, actually that term that you mentioned, , before brand architecture. So tell us a bit more about that and the different layers of brand.  Petchy: Yeah, I'll, I'll try and, uh, make it, oh, well, simplify it a bit.  Because brand architecture can be really complex, but we can also think about it in really sort of simpler terms. So in essence, brand architecture, it's the layers of your brand. So how many levels. Does your brand have, and on the one side you have what we call a branded house. And on the other extreme, you have what you call a house of brands. And then of course there are all sorts of hybrid models that you can adopt in the middle there. And a lot of us smaller business owners will probably find ourselves towards, leaning towards a hybrid model or, , maybe a, a [00:28:00] branded house. So somewhere towards that end of the scale. , and that's because we are naturally, we are naturally the focus of our brands, but we then might have certain product brands that then lie on the next level. Below us like, so if you, if you place yourself as the mother brand of your brand, , Sarah is, , on the top there mm-hmm and then you have your, your method, that's kind of a subbrand to your main brand , and any other like product or services that you decide to brand separately. So it's brand architecture is more about figuring out how all of these little puzzle pieces, , fit together. Mm. And then. You can also look at whether you want that. Do you want there to be a difference between your personal brand, , and your corporate brand because, and that goes back to what we were just talking about as well. And it's, it's really is up to you how visible you are as the brand owner. So if you're leaning more towards a [00:29:00] corporate brand, then you would perhaps not use your own name so much, but if you're leaning more towards. A personal brand, you would lead with your name. So, or in the corporate  Sarah: brand brand, just be featured as like the founder or yeah, mm-hmm  Petchy: yeah. And I mean, you have examples of this. So you have some of the big household brands where, you have Unilever, for instance, they obviously that's the mother brand, but it's not really that visible. When you go out and look into the world, you don't really see the mother brand as much because you see the, the sub brands, you see the product brands, right? They are the ones who take center stage. , and the reason why a lot of these like bigger brands that have a lot of different products do it that way is because it then allows them to go into the marketplace and compete. Against itself, if you know what I mean, they can have several different products, very distinct product brands, so, and they can be competing against [00:30:00] each other. Mm-hmm  Sarah: so that would be the, the house of brands. Right. That would be the more the  Petchy: corporate model. That's more of the corporate line. So for instance, if you have a very. A very strong, but hidden mother brand. Maybe they do lines of cleaning products. Maybe they even do like two different brands of washing powder, like detergent mm-hmm because they are structured in that way. They can do that. Like they can put the brands up to like against each other. But that's not the approach that most small business owners take. So we are more in the, on the other end of the scale, where, where we just focus on building a, like a solid core around ourselves. And then you can decide whether you want to have a prominent role in that, or whether you wanna step back a little bit and let your approach or your signature service. If you. Those to [00:31:00] lead instead. So it's, it's just figuring out like the prominence of the different levels as well and how it all works together. But, I dunno if I mentioned it to you, but I do have a little guide on this. Just a one page PDF that I will happily let your listeners. Have so I will send that to you. Sarah: Oh, awesome. Sarah, I'll definitely make sure that they can download that because I think that's when it gets complex as well. As you know, we were talking before we, , recorded this idea of what, if you have outgrown your brand and now you need to rebrand and you know, all these questions. Well, what do I need to change? How do you communicate about it? That's when it gets complex. And that's when people really need to ask for help from someone like you, because then it can quickly get in into very messy brands. Right. where it's like, yeah, I see it all the time. It's like that one times it's like that and yeah, it's just kind of gets confusing. Petchy: It's [00:32:00] one of the scenarios that I come across. The most, actually, when I work with my clients is some, they, they will come to me. They already have a brand and they they're doing fairly well with that, but it feels like something's a little bit off. It's not feeling aligned anymore. , and maybe they feel like they've outgrown their brand, as you said. And, and yeah, I think that's when it becomes even more important to take that step back and look at the foundations before you do anything else, because maybe that was the missing piece, right? , from the previous brand and a lot of the. I find that they don't have to throw everything out of the window and start all over a lot of the time we can take what they have and we can mold it and we can tweak it and we can turn that into the next iteration of the brand. So it's not, it's not always necessary to go right back. Yeah. Start from scratch.  Sarah: I have a very personal question about my brand. You know, I have the humane marketing. it's more of. An idea as a brand, because my company is not [00:33:00] called humane marketing. , the website is humane marketing, and then I have marketing, like we're human selling, like we're human. Those are the, the books. So would you say marketing, like we're human and selling? Like we're human are kind of like the subbrands, even though I'm, I'm not really branding them, but I'm often talking about. This idea of selling or marketing or now LinkedIn, like we're human. Is this kind of a sub-brand even though I'm not really, you know, branding it per se. Mm. Yeah, I  Petchy: think it's kind of just naturally falling into the category of sub-brand. Okay. , maybe you're just doing it sub subconsciously , but, and it feels like natural, but also I feel like you are a whole approach. The whole sort of human centered way of doing things has potential to become a brand. Of its own something bigger than you eventually. Yeah. Like if, if that is the direction that you wanted to take it,  Sarah: That's so humane marketing. That's kind of the reason why I, you know, didn't [00:34:00] put it under my name. I was like, well, if I'm. Wanting to create a movement, then it's not all about me. It's about the movement and the idea behind the movement. And, and so that's why I went with humane marketing and the trademark and, and all of that. So, so yeah, I, I was just wondering, you know, what is this. A subbrand in a small business example. So for you branded, you said, that could become a its own subbrand eventually. So, so I'm thinking maybe marketing, like we're human is another example. Petchy: Yeah. Yeah. I would say that's, that's exactly how it would work. And then, , for now maybe you are more prominent than humane marketing. Yeah. But at some point you might find. That the roles change and that's okay. And you can then make a conscious decision of whether you want to lead with yourself or whether you want to lead with your approach or your method or your movement. Yeah. , but also it kind of gives you a lot of [00:35:00] cred too. If this thing grows bigger than you. If you managed to create this worldwide movement. Then imagine what effect that has on your personal brand to be able to go out there and say with confidence and pride that, hi, I'm Sarah, I'm the creator of this movement, you know, I'm the founder of this. Yeah. So they all, they're all connected.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I see how the personal brand plays into that now. Yeah. There's there's one, kind of final topic I wanted to touch upon. And that's this idea of the future, you know, what does the future of branding looks like? Which direction are we going in in terms of branding? Petchy: Oh, well, I, I don't think I have a crystal ball , but I, the way I see it and the way I'm experiencing it as, as a part. Like the business world right now [00:36:00] is that those personal connections are going to become even more important for, for brands as we move forward, because people are craving that human connection. People are craving to be seen, to be heard, to be taken seriously by a human and not, and to not just feel like there are a number in a sales spreadsheet or. Or in a CRM system. Mm-hmm I know for myself that makes me feel very, it feels like it's dehumanizing somehow. So yeah, those genuine, genuine connections, and not trying to present yourself as anything other than what you are not trying to con people just, just. Don't be an asshole. Sorry. Am I allowed to swear on your yes, that's fine.  Sarah: totally fine. Yeah. And it's funny. Cuz just yesterday I, I got on a call from, with a new circle member, a human [00:37:00] humane marketing circle and I offered these coffee chats and. The guy actually said, you know, I really appreciate having this chat with you. I was really impressed by this human connection, cuz usually in these memberships, we don't get that. And, and that proves what you just said. It's like, Yeah, we're, we're used to just being a number, right. We're used to kind of just paying monthly subscriptions, but not actually counting as, as human beings or not having that connection with the, you know, the, the other people or the founders. So I think, I think you're totally right. What about in terms of go ahead. No, sorry.  Petchy: I was just saying, I think we're moving from the sort of spray and pray approach to a more. Focused, deeper, but narrower kind of connection. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. The, which also maybe means, you know, smaller businesses, not giant, [00:38:00] you know, kingdoms of, of businesses. Like some of the big names had in the past, You know, smaller communities, but very meaningful communities. I, I think that's where we're, we're heading. Yeah.  Petchy: I think there will still, we will still see those big brands as well, because they are so established by now that they, they just own a certain market share by now. But. When you see a lot of smaller brands emerging, it's, it's a lot easier for people to find a brand that really resonates with them, you know, that they really feel onboard with this brand's vision and what they're trying to do and the values and what they stand for. And that connection of feeling like you are a part of something. Yeah. And not just a, an invisible, insignificant little, little puzzle piece. Mm-hmm I think that becomes more important for. People wanna feel like they're making a difference or that they're doing good. Right. And, , whatever that [00:39:00] might be. So, I mean, I will find a lot of brands out there that stand for the complete opposite of what I stand for. But there will be people who resonate with them too. Yeah. And then I can go and find the brand that resonates with me. Mm-hmm and then that, that's my way of being able to influence the world in that direction. I wanna see it is choosing what brands I support and what brands I buy from. Right.  Sarah: What about visually? , I remember you and I talked about the visual aspect also of future design. , what's your, future vision.  Petchy: Ah, this is a big question as well. , there's this term that I've seen, going round the block, lately and it's de branding Okay. so the, some of the like bigger, more established brands have ditched, slightly complex logos and gone back to basics with just the, the sort of flat logos, very simple like logo types. , and I've seen. Some like [00:40:00] controversy around it as well. And like, people are like, oh, what do you think of this before and after? And you have a lot of designers, especially the younger designers going, oh, why are they doing that? Now? They don't look like, you know, they are not distinct anymore. They just look like one of many. And for me, I'm classically trained. I'm a bit of a dinosaur. I'm gonna age myself enough for saying this, but I'm trained the old school way to. To develop visual identities. And especially if we talk about the logo, that it should be able to work in its simplest form. Right. And then, so that was, that was the initial approach. And then like maybe in the, the old days, you didn't have all of the, digital channels that we have now in all of the different reproduction methods for. Digital print and all of that. And so your logo had to be simple, right? It had to communicate in a, in a really simple, way and be really distinct, , just in one color and just flat. [00:41:00] So that's where like I come from and then you can add things to it. And I think with the, with technology, just moving so fast, we were able to do so many things to these logo. So easily, we could just like add a drop shadow, or we could add a gradient or we could make it look fancy or we could animate logos and and somewhere in that, I think we lost the simplicity. That's really powerful. Mm-hmm because we just started adding things because we could . Right. , and the way I see it now is more brands are returning to. The basics, because even though we have now, all of these options are how to, how to place our logo. And really, we aren't limited to anything, but it's, it's just going back to the basics and  Sarah: seems, seems to be a movement kind of everywhere. Right. And it's, it's bad to me it's going in the right direction and we need to simplify everywhere, you know? [00:42:00] Yeah. And that's  Petchy: not to say that you can't start with a simple logo and add something fancy to it, but it's. Then you will always have that really solid recognizable icon that, that you can go back to. So, okay. So all of these special effects, they're all just fashion, you know, they're all just like trends, pleading trends. So maybe one year gradient logos are all the rage. Everybody wants a gradient logo and they're like a year after. That trend is gone and it's nice then to have a, just a clean, timeless logo that you can revert back to him and then yeah, tweak it. Sarah: I'm just also thinking, you know, about. I don't know, printing, for example, like every time you print such a complicated logo while you use more ink. Right. And, and so just sustainably thinking also it, it [00:43:00] needs to go into the direction of simplifying and going back to basics and, and yeah, to me, that seems to the right direction. Anyway, I think we kind of got lost. Just like, yeah, everywhere. We got lost with technology and robots and chatbots and all of that. And now we just need to come back to basics and,  Petchy: and, but there's no wonder I'm, I'm an early adopter of all like kinds of technology. I love new technology. I love new gadgets. So I get that. It's, you know, it's fun to play with. But I don't think we should lose the sight of the basics and right where we came from either. So finding a striking a balance there, I think is good. Yeah. Is the future of branding finding that sweet spot and what works for you? Mm-hmm yeah. So not necessarily looking to a different brand or other brands, like bigger brands to figure out what's right for you. Don't don't just copy. Just. That sort of introspective mm [00:44:00] wonderful things.  Sarah: This has been really great. Thanks so much. Petchi for having this conversation and sharing so much wisdom. I always, I think for inviting me. Yeah. Thank you. I always ask one last question, , before you share where people can find you, but what are you grateful for today or this week? Petchy: , today, well, not just today and not just this week, but just this, this year or this decade. , I'm just really grateful for living in a very safe country. I have food, I have clothes. I have a roof over my head and a wonderful family. And, that's something to be grateful for. I think in these. These times where we see what's happening around the world. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. Happy for you. Thank you. Share with us where people can find you and, mention maybe that PDF. Do you want to just send me that or is there a link that, , I can,  Petchy: , yeah, I can send you that. Afterwards and you can put it wherever you, you. [00:45:00] Yeah. So wish, , yeah, no, the best place to go and find me and learn more about me online is my website. You'll find everything there from like my approach, , and what I'm all about and ways to work with me and how to find me in other channels. And that's pet.co. , I also hung out on Instagram quite a lot. And on LinkedIn. But you won't probably see me pop up in your feed because the action is all in the sort of DMS and, , and that, but it's petri.co on, on Instagram as well. If you wanna follow along there. And, , like I said, my feed is a static evergreen, nine grid. So the best way to connect with me on there is just to slide into my DMS and say, hello. .  Sarah: Wonderful. Thanks so much. This was amazing. I learned a lot. So thank you for that pet. Thanks for being here.  Petchy: Thanks for having me.[00:46:00] [00:47:00] 

Today I'm speaking to Emily McGuire about Building Community Through Your Email List Emily is the Customer Evangelist at AWeber - a people-first Email Service Provider. With lessons learned over a decade in tech, sending thousands of email campaigns, and working on email campaigns earning over $80 million in revenue, Emily loves sharing the mistakes and strategies of email marketing done well. You'll typically find her with a cup of coffee in hand because #momlife. When her head isn't on her laptop, you can find her chasing her kid, reading a book, or binging trashy TV. In this episode, you'll learn about building community through your email list as well as...   Whether we should really still bother with email What works well now to grow our email lists The Frequency sweet spot: how often is too much? The danger and warning signs of writing emails that are too transactional 3 big mistakes to fix to avoid people unsubscribing from your email list And so much more Emily's Resources   Emily's Website Emily's Resources Connect with Emily on: LinkedIn Facebook Twitter   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Emily. So good to see you speak to you today.  Emily: Hi there. Thank you for having me. Yeah,  Sarah: it's We're focusing on email marketing in this episode. And that goes under my, P of promotion because, , if you think email, usually you're thinking, okay, I'm promoting something, even though you're probably gonna tell us, well, it's not just promotion , but that's where I placed it under. So, Yeah. With that, let's just dive right in. , I think my first question would be, do you feel that email is still alive and kicking with all , you know, our over full inboxes? What, what's your take  Emily: on that? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, a lot of people like to say email is dad. They've been saying that since I started in email marketing, about eight years ago. And, , you know, what I would say is, you know, email marketing, definitely isn't dad, [00:01:00] the way we think about it is, and I, that, People had adopted email, originally as a direct extension of direct mail. And so, , there's still some lingering ideas that email is this long form content where you can link, dump a bunch of articles and podcasts you're listening to, or the latest book you're reading in a newsletter and people are gonna read the whole thing. And, you know, in today's world, in digital marketing, we're competing with constant distractions. And I think that we need to be really aware of helping our readers focus, , on the main goal of our campaigns, , rather than just throwing a ton of content at them, hoping they'll find the right thing for. yeah.  Sarah: What I hear you say is, is this idea of the [00:02:00] newsletter, right? It's like, here is my newsletter and there's like 20 pieces of news. And I actually expect you to buy something from, from that newsletter, I think. Yeah. That's what I'm hearing. And, and, and you're right there, there is this tendency still, and that, I guess, Dates back from the days that we have these newsletters, whereas like, oh, I'm signing up. I'm giving my email away for just to be on a newsletter and that's just not true anymore. So, you know, I guess that makes me think of. , this idea of getting people onto you, your newsletter, or having them subscribe. So since this term newsletter clearly doesn't work anymore. What's the latest trend. What works well now to grow your email list, to have more subscribers on, on your.  Emily: Yeah. So,[00:03:00] you know, always a lead magnet of some kind is going to help. So lead magnet, , I'm sure you've probably addressed this before, but in case not, or if anybody needs a refresher, is a piece of content or a freebie or something, you can offer somebody in exchange for their email. So you are essentially setting up the relationship, whether you're a subscriber by saying, Hey, I can help solve a, a pain point for you with, Again, with some sort of guide or workbook or, um, maybe a quiz or here's a free discount or gift, , in exchange for your email address and that way you are, again, incentivizing people and not just saying, being really vague and saying, sign up for our newsletters. Well, what does your newsletter offer to people? Value are you offering to people? And that's where people, I think people really need to get specific around growing your [00:04:00] email list. Like, what is it you have to say and how are you actually helping folks?  Sarah: So these eBooks you're saying they're still work because they, they have been around for a long time as well. And it feels almost like. Maybe that's done too, but you're saying like, if the, I guess it depends on the topic. If the topic feels like, okay, this is going to help me, then I would give my email an exchange for the ebook.  Emily: Yeah. I mean, an ebook is still, you know, is still a strategy. Some people use, but you know, you can do many courses that you deliver over email. Mm-hmm , it doesn't have to be fancy. Like you can even take an ebook that you already have and turn it into little lessons that you drip out to your subscribers and, you know, send an email. What, after the other, so I think that, you know, starting with an ebook is a good place to start, but like, thinking about how are you interacting with your audience? How are you really engaging them with [00:05:00] the lead magnet will help again, get people really excited about your brand instead of you dumping content. On them and saying here here's a 10 page, 10, 20 page PDF to read. , I know because everybody's busy, right? Like I said, everybody's busy. , and so how are you, , giving people smaller chunks, right. Of information that is easy to digest.  Sarah: Right. So, so let's talk about then the emails. You know, if they're not newsletters, what are we putting in those emails? And, and you're kind of talking about emails that are transactional, transactional, and, and some warning signs where we can tell. Okay. There's something not working. People are not opening our emails or they're unsubscribing. So what are some signs of maybe, emails that are too transactional and then how do we fix that and how do [00:06:00] we make them non transactional?  Emily: Right. So I like to encourage people to think about, Different, email campaign categories. Mm-hmm that they want out. So, you know, obviously you're gonna have different goals for your emails. You might have, you might want to be pushing, you know, sales more often. Right? Of course, you're, everybody's trying to make money. Right. We gotta pay the bills. but you know, sending sale or emails that are really, only around.  Getting a sale or conversion. If you're only sending emails like that, you're gonna start seeing high unsubscribed rates, right? Mm-hmm and, uh, list churn is what they call that mm-hmm . And so you're not engaging people, you're not giving, you're only asking right. For them to give you their money. And so a varying that, I mean, having sale oriented emails is important, but also putting in content that is engaging. So maybe. You know, talking about, thought leadership [00:07:00] what's thought leadership in your industry having one email. So I recommend at least sending one email per week to keep. Engaged. So maybe one email a month is dedicated to that's more sales focused, one email a month. That's dedicated to thought leadership, around your specific, subject area.  Another one that's more personal, you know, because people wanna connect with you as a human. So do you have a story to tell about your business? Maybe what's going on behind the scenes and how can you show your humanity? And then maybe one that's a customer focused success story. So how are you helping your customers? What is something that, what are successes they're having? So you're sort of giving a whole picture to your business, keeping folks engaged, but also selling. Right. So metrics to look at for that are, you know, there are industry benchmarks that people like to cite. I've seen those very widely [00:08:00] across businesses. I don't think that they're very accurate. What I recommend people doing is setting your own internal benchmark. So what are your open rates for the past three months? Look at that. And then if something is dipping below that or jumping above that, then you know, you've got some successes or you've got some warning signs. So, open rates, I like to tell people. Anything over 20%, you're doing pretty good. Obviously you can do better. Anything under 10%. There's a problem. And usually when you've got, when open rates might dip, there's usually something else going. Else going on and that's usually a result of your list health. So it might be something going on with your subscriber base. Maybe you've got a lot of really unengaged people that need to be reengaged. Maybe they've never opened an email. If you have really low clicks on your email, then you need to start looking at, okay, what are you asking people to click on?[00:09:00]  Are you giving them incentive to click through to something else? And is that click really gonna get you where you want them to go? So is that going to lead to a sale or is it gonna lead them down their buying journey with you and then, and then another one is unsubscribe. So I already mentioned that, you know, just keeping an eye on that. What's your benchmark for your business over the last three months. And if you're starting to see your unsubscribed rates tick up and up, people are unengaged, with your emails. They're not there. There's something wrong with the content of your email, and then you need to come back and look at what were my most successful emails. Mm-hmm what were. With and how can I take those lessons and replicate it for future emails?  Sarah: Mm-hmm yeah, I don't do that enough. yeah. And the one thing that you didn't mention, but I guess would also play into that is when you actually get [00:10:00] replies, that's my favorite, you know, when you send an email and then you get replies, people telling you their stories and that's when I'm. Wow. I just love my lists. They're , you know, they're right there. They know that I'm the one sending the, the emails and then they can tell that it's personal and it's not, obviously it's automated because that's what we do nowadays. We use these tools, but they, if they hit reply, they feel like, okay, I can talk to Sarah and she's, she's gonna reply back. Emily: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Replies are a great one too. Not everybody, some people might have a contact center that is managing those replies for them. But yeah, if you're managing your own list and those replies are beautiful, they're, they're a great way to gauge engagement.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And then you talked about, opening rates and, and I know I have heard this number before the 30% or 20% is. Still always surprises me. Like it seems [00:11:00] so low. Right. But that is just a sign of how overly busy we all keep ourselves and how much email. Stuff were subscribed to you. Like it just always, this just surprises me. I always tell my clients and my listeners to unsubscribe from the things that they're not actually using, but I, I guess the big majority of people are just, yeah, they still have too much stuff in their inbox. It's  Emily: amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's why, Well, but it also presents you an opportunity, right? So I like to tell people to resend their emails, , cuz people really have a lot of concern around redundancy. Mm-hmm . You know, well, if I already sent that content out in an email, people have already seen it before. They're not gonna wanna see it again. And it's like, well, if a good open rate is 20%, that means 80% of your E your list never [00:12:00] sought to begin with. Right. Yeah. And so that, that's a really great to me. It's a great opportunity to, , recycle your content, send out the same email content, you know, maybe three months apart, pick out your best performing emails and queue them up. So if you're having a busy week or, you know, you're, you're, you've got writer's block. You're not sure what you wanna send out that week. You've got a queue of old email. That you know, people like that you can resend. , yeah. And  Sarah: would you then target it in a way that the ones that had opened it wouldn't get it again or you're like, doesn't matter. Emily: It doesn't matter. I think a lot of people assume that just because somebody opened an email, , they think that it means that a they read it. not everybody does just because they opened the email, , B that they, remember. Everything or remembered what was in the email? Mm. And C , took the [00:13:00] action. They intended to mm-hmm . Again, we are competing with distractions. And so in my opinion, , you know, repetition is helpful. It's not a burden, it's not annoying. you're just reinforcing the points that, you know, people need. , cuz you're, you're listening to your customers and you know what help they need and hopefully your emails are helping. Sarah: Mm. Yeah. I, I kind of struggle with that idea cuz I feel like, well then what if you know, 10 people already read it and they're like, Sarah are, you know, are you ING with what's wrong? Like why are you sending me the same email? Like that? yeah, but, but I guess if you just kind of make the intro a bit differently or, or like rapid. Yeah. I, what I started doing actually. Uh, and I heard that on, on Jenny Blake's podcast is, Using the email. So a single email and then adding it to a sequence because [00:14:00] people who are on my list now, well, they're getting it now, but then if I add it to a sequence, then these people will get it once they get to that sequence. And so that I, I have started doing and. Stopped again, but do do that again. I think that that's a great strategy because you're right. It, we create so much content and, and especially those emails that, you know, resonated with our audience. Why not reuse them again? Sometimes I even used the email text and then just post it on LinkedIn, the same text, because you're right. Maybe they didn't see it on LinkedIn or they didn't see it on, on email. Yeah.  Emily: Yeah, exactly. I think, you know, we. Because we are so in our own content that people are not paying as close attention to it as we are. Yeah. You know, we know our content, but our audience, you know, they, they mostly don't care. right. Yeah. And you know, I've gotten, you know, from my own email list for,[00:15:00] , when I had a consulting business, I. I had a couple emails that people loved that I would send out once every six months. And I had the same people replying to that email saying they loved it every single day. like, remember that they got it before they had remarkable, you know, we have very short memories. Yeah.  Sarah: It's like goldfish memories. How much should we worry about these unsubscribed rates? When clients tell me, you know, they're always like freaking out when, when people unsubscribe and I actually try to tell 'em, well, maybe it's a good thing. Depends. You know? So what's your take on that and, and, and then maybe also tell us how can we avoid unsubscribes at at least. You know, big numbers of unsubscribes cuz the, the equational one, I think it's  Emily: actually healthy. Yeah. I mean it's [00:16:00] healthy, right. You know, not every, you know, not everybody's good for fit for us all the time. Right. , and you don't want people who are not interested you in you on your email list, cuz that drags down your engagement. Right. But there are a couple things that you can do to help with unsubscribes. One is, you know, if you see a spike in unsubscribes, something's wrong, you know, and usually what I see in that is, you know, maybe, , your subject line over promised what was in your email, right? Those things match up. You were not matching expectations up correctly for people. So I, I see people trying to get a little bit tricky and click Beatty with their subject lines. Yeah. And that ultimately, , loses trust with your subscribers, right? Yeah. The other thing you can consider is, , what I've done. For, businesses and myself, , is allowed people to pause their subscriptions. Mm. So you can, instead of saying, I let's break up [00:17:00] forever, you can say, you know what, I need a bit of a break three or six months, you know, you can decide that number for yourself three months seems to be a good option for folks and all you have to do. You know, depending on your email service provider, you can have a little button, or add a button above. Your unsubscribed link that says, you know, I need a break, something like that pop for three months and click, when they click it, send them to a really simple landing page that says, , you know, that confirms that their subscriptions paused. And again, depending on your email service provider, you should be able to tag somebody if they click that link. Right. And then them in an automation. that has that tag on them for three months. And at the end of this three months, you remove that tag and then all you have to do [00:18:00] is make sure that in your newsletter segment or your regular email campaign segment, you're excluding that tag. So, yeah, that's another option you can do is that you, they call that opting down instead of opting out. Sarah: I like that. Yeah. , I'm not sure I'm using Kajabi. I, I would need to check with, with them if they offer that option. But it, I think that's a great idea. , it's kind of like I'm, I'm on a. You know, email sabbatical, please, you know, please, please pause me for six months. Yeah,  Emily: yeah. And I've also done this for, you know, if you're running a, a campaign over a few weeks that is more maybe sales focused or if you're running, a challenge or, or something else, if instead of having people unsubscribed, if they're not interested in that particular thing, I let them know, Hey, you're not interested in this right now. You can pause for the duration. Yeah. Yeah. So, , it's another option to save those subscribers.  Sarah: Yeah. Any, any other, , [00:19:00] tips to yeah. Have stop people from unsubscribing, I guess also in terms of the. the links, , before you said, you know, it's, it's not a good idea to have this newsletter with a hundred links. So is the idea then to just have one link per email that used to be the, when I studied email marketing, that used to be the message. Is that still the case or how do we  Emily: approach links? Yeah. I mean, I would, you know, depending on what's in your email campaign or your newsletter, , you know, just being really intentional about putting links in your email. So, you know, if you are, you know, writing on a piece of thought leadership, right? If you're talking about something in your industry, if you have. Relevant to that piece that people might find helpful then, yeah. You know, hyperlinking it in the text saying, you know, if you need more help with this here's this resource. And then, to help [00:20:00] you with conversions have. Between one. And at the end of your email have one between one and three calls to action that are related to helping guide people through your sales process. So whether that's, Hey, if you need more help around this topic here, here is, , a list, another resource mm-hmm if you wanna talk about this topic more, here's how to get in touch with somebody mm-hmm . And, , or here is another piece of content that will help with this, right. Making sure that you're really intentional about, , guiding people through your sales process, and relating it back to how you're helping them in adding value. , I think that is, it's just being really, really intentional about what your goals are. For your emails, what your subscriber's goals are and marrying those two with, , guiding [00:21:00] them through your sales process. What's the next action they need to take in order to get help, right? Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. I get that. , We used to also say that the PS in the newsletter that like sometimes people read the, the subject line and then they, you know, scroll down and, and so the PS had this big importance. Would you still recommend putting something in the PS as well?  Emily: Yeah. And that's where those three calls to action to live. Yeah. And bullet rate those don't make it a long block, a big block of text mm-hmm bullet. So they're easy to scan and read.  Sarah: Okay, great. And is there a difference between a hyperlink and a button link? Like is there stats that show the people click more than one or the other.  Emily: It I've seen stats very widely on that. And I think it depends on your, the kind of campaign you're running. I recommend, you know, at least [00:22:00] having one bold call to action with a button, , unless your email template is more of a letter format, then that might not make sense, right. With the, with the style and feel of the email. Mm. And then, you know, having some hyperlinked links in your text, if it's relevant and it's not a distraction for your subscriber, if it will help them and guide them further down their sales path.  Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. I'm also thinking you just mentioned design, like back in the days we used to have, or some people still have that, like the header and then the signature block, and it looks like this branded email. Right. , but then there was a trend where people were saying actually, what works better is just like text that looks just like any regular email. What do you recommend to your clients?  Emily: Yeah, I mean, it depends on the business. Again, I've seen, I've [00:23:00] tested those kinds of templates and results have varied widely mm-hmm I've seen a lot of success with text based emails. It's a really good place to start. It's a lot, it's a lot lighter load on somebody. Building emails. And I think that's definitely something you have to consider. Yeah. If you don't have a designer on a dedicated designer on your team or they're stretched really thin, , then, , yeah, it just bogs down the process. And so, but some brands are very visual mm-hmm and that makes sense for them. Mm-hmm so I think, , again, I do a mix typically, depending on the type of campaign, but, , text very simple text formatting works really, really well.  Sarah: Nice. Okay. The last topic I wanted to talk to you about, and, and you brought this up. When we had an email exchanges, this idea of community building, so using email for community building, [00:24:00] and that is of personal interest to me because we, we have our humane marketing circle, our community. So, so yeah. What's your experience there? And, and how do we use email for community?  Emily: Yeah. So I think, , you know, particularly in the last couple of years, you know, globally, we have seen a lot of, really hard things. Right. And. . I have seen a lot of businesses really miss the mark on it. Hmm. And instead of taking it as an opportunity to address people's humanity and the very real anxieties and fears people are experiencing, they instead use it as an opportunity to just give updates about the company mm-hmm . And although that information can be really important. I think that it. You know, ultimately human beings are emotional. We are emotional things who like to think we are [00:25:00] rational thinkers and, addressing people's emotions is just as important as educating them. Right. Mm-hmm because emotions can stop us, from doing the work right from showing up fully. And so, , I have seen brands, Incredible strides with their audiences and really bond, with their brands and build community by addressing their emotional states, especially when it comes to public crises. So, I think it's I, and, and it doesn't have to be something that big, but really thinking about what are your people struggling with emotionally? What anxieties do they have around the work that you're trying to help them do? , or. Personally, and really speaking to that, lets them know that you see them not only, or that, , you see them not just as a business [00:26:00] transaction, you see them as a whole human being and that builds trust and likability very quickly. Yeah,  Sarah: that reminds me of, , something I saw on LinkedIn. And I can't remember what brand it was, but basically it was mother's day and they were acknowledging that, you know, it being mother's day and usually there was like a mother's day sale and this was just after COVID and so they were acknowledging that. , it probably was a difficult day for a lot of people who, well, they had lost their moms. Right. And so instead of just sending out another sales email, oh, happy mother's day, they addressed that. And there was a lot of, yeah. Very positive feedback. , and it was, you know, going viral on, on social. Unfortunately, I don't remember that company name, but still, it was a really good example.  Emily: Yeah, that seems to be a growing trend in email marketing, where people are very aware of, you know, mother's day and father's day. And these relationships can be very complicated. Yeah. Um, [00:27:00] and, you know, allowing people to opt out for that season, again, opting down instead of opting out, Addresses their emotions and makes them say, Hey, we know you're a human being too, like yeah, yeah. Not just a potential dollar sign. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. And, and I think it does this human side should really be. All over, you know, your emails, , especially for our listeners who are more like entrepreneurs. So entrepreneurs, coaches, consultants, you are the business, right? So it's all about community building for you. Of course. Yes. It's also about selling, but it's. Much more about community building because that will lead to the sales. So, so that human aspect is, is so important. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Wonderful. Any, any final thoughts? Anything else that we didn't touch on that you wanted to add here to this wonderful [00:28:00] conversation? Emily: Yeah. And I wanna address one specific, anxiety that I know that people experience with email and people get really anxious around hitting that send button. , and because, you know, we wanna be, we wanna do it right. We wanna do it. We wanna make sure we didn't do any errors or typos or wrong links. And I just wanna let people know that the next time you make an email mistake, we've all done it. , I've done it. , more than once and done it with teams who have five people reviewing the email. And so, , just wanna let you know. It's never gonna be perfect. And again, people appreciate the humanity sometimes and sending out that oops, email afterwards where addressing the mistake, , sometimes those do even better than the email you intended to send out that day. Yeah. So, , nobody's perfect and we're all just doing our best. And so, um, I wanna make sure people know that, , to not let that get in the way of sending out that next. [00:29:00]  Sarah: Yeah. In fact, it really shows you, which people should not be on your list are the ones that, you know, point out that you have misspelled this or that word or that, you know, I'm like, you know what? Yeah. Can be bothered. Exactly.  Emily: They're trying to get along. Exactly.  Sarah: Yeah. I'm just, you know, a one woman show here. So I don't have time to like, yeah. People sometimes suggested that I have a, you know, someone edited my emails and, and I'm like, look, it's pretty clear that English is not my mother tongue. I'm not gonna hire a copy editor for each email. that's just not gonna be authentic anymore. But yeah. I think you're right. It is. Idea for perfections that we have to overcome first. And then, and then eventually you get to the point where you're like, you know what? Yeah. Things happen. Yeah. Let it go. Yeah. [00:30:00] Wonderful. Well, Emily, why don't you share, with people where, they can find you and maybe you have a, a free giveaway. Well, as well that they can download, tell us  Emily: all. Yeah, so you can, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I like sharing things about email marketing there. You can find me on LinkedIn, , Emily McGuire, and also, you know, I'm the cur I'm the current customer evangelist at AWeber, which is an email service provider. And, we do have free accounts. So if you're looking for a new email service provider, feel free to head over to E aweber.com and check it out.  Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. I used to, , use AWeber , when was that? Before I switched to active campaign and then to Kajabi, but I think if I had to switch again, I would probably go back to AWeber. It's a, it's a really good service. So, , yeah. Thank you. The last question that I always ask all my guests is what are you grateful for this week? Or  Emily: today? Today. I am grateful for [00:31:00] sunshine. I've been getting over a cold and so I've been inside a little too much. And so this morning, even though I'm not feeling a hundred percent, I'm like, I was like, I'm taking a walk around the block and I'm gonna get some sunshine gonna get that vitamin D in. Yeah, definitely. Especially, you know, in I'm in Michigan, in the us. And we have very long winters, so I'm soaking it up while I've got it. .  Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. Wishing you a speedy recovery. Take care of yourself and thanks so much for your  Emily: time here. Thank you.

Today I'm talking to my friend Remeny Armitage about turning your clients into advocates. Remeny Armitage's mission is to humanize business. She has over 20 years experience working for a variety of businesses in client advocacy and insight research, marketing and new business. Ultimately, she helps businesses understand what their clients REALLY think about them with the goal of turning their clients into advocates. Her experience has helped build relationships between businesses and their clients in a human-centric way. She gets under the skin of a business by interviewing their clients and feeding back ways they can improve the business and the way they engage with their clients in a human way. She has built up a range of methods that ensures business improvement and growth, while building long-lasting relationships that are based on a strong foundation of trust and respect between businesses and their clients, with the aim of turning them into advocates In this episode, you'll learn about turning your clients into advocates as well as...   Remeny's mission to humanize business what turning your clients into advocates has to do with sustainability what's behind the mistake of always looking for “new” business before revisiting existing clients how a focus on humanity helps to build more loyal customers and so much more. Remeny's Resources   Remeny's Website Connect with Remeny on: LinkedIn Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] [00:08:00] Hey re how are you?  Remeny: Yeah, I'm good. Thank you.  Sarah: Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm so excited to get to talk to you again. We've had several chances off and on recording this time, we're recording again. So good to speak to you. We were met through a networking. I was gonna say a networking event, but it was through another person who connected the two of us. Yes. I [00:09:00] think she talked to you after just talking to me and she's like, You both talk about humanizing business. Yes. So I think you should know each other. It was exactly, it  Remeny: was a, it was serendipity. It was great. Exactly.  Sarah: Yeah. And then I think you told me that you just bought my selling, like we're human bug, like before,  Remeny: so yeah. Which is funny. It was so weird. I mean, talk about serendipity. It was like, oh wow. You know, I'm obviously, yeah. That's never happened before. You're the first person here. I bought the book and then suddenly he'd landed in my life. It's very exciting. Yeah. I love  Sarah: these moments. Yeah. Love them. Yeah. So, so yeah, that's why we're here because we have you know, very similar worldviews business views, our values are aligned. And so I feel like we have a lot of things in common and absolutely, we talk a lot of things about a lot of things as well. So your business is called brilliant and human and. So have this tagline on your homepage that says let's humanize business together. So [00:10:00] yes, absolutely. Tell us more, tell us about your story and how this all started. Remeny: Oh, well thank you so, well, yes, as you say, it's brilliant and human is my business. The idea is by being more human you can be, well, you can be more brilliant. And so um, the, the focus of the work that I do is all about making. People in business, happier by building better relationships with them. And the way I do that at the moment is focusing more on the client side and building better relationships with clients by proactively listening to clients and actually learning what makes them. What would make them happier in with their suppliers and their the businesses that they're working with so that they can so that they can help the businesses improve. So typically I interview my clients, clients find out what's working, what's not, and look at ways of improving a business so that they can serve their clients better with more humanity and more care. And, and actually hopefully promote happier working environment. [00:11:00]  Sarah: Yeah, I, I, I will definitely ask more questions about that because when I first heard you say that, I was like, wow, that's interesting. I've never heard that before. And in fact were. Featuring this episode under the P of partnership of the humane marketing Mandela, and it's really this partnership with your clients, right? Yes. That, that, and, and, and I guess for you as with your clients' clients as well yes. That's who you're really talking  Remeny: to. Yes. So how did that  Sarah: yeah. How did, how did you turn that idea into, you know, now your business model and services?  Remeny: Well, I had been working in agencies, so digital agency I was in the, got into marketing and biz dev for digital agencies for gosh, since 99. And I. You know, the person who people came to to build the relationships with the potential clients mainly, but I always felt that, you know, I would spend a long time doing new business, [00:12:00] building relationships, bringing clients in, built on trust and humanity and care. And then the, the. Agency the, the team would be working with the client would be getting on fine with the client, but then often what would happen is that the project would finish and then the client would go off and do something else with someone else. And, and I've always felt frustrated and, and felt that there was more opportunity there to build those relationships so that you've got more human and engaging relationships so that they stay more loyal. So that they continue to work with you and if they move to another business, they go on and they get, you know, they'll keep working with you cuz it's people working with people. And so I I decided to leave the agency after 10 years and I set up brilliant in human and the originally I was doing marketing biz dev and, and then the client care piece, but then I've become more and more focused on the, the. The client care and the client advocacy piece and that [00:13:00] human engagement. So, because I think that businesses are often so busy doing the bulk, doing the bulk of the work that they're doing and looking at how to win new business and, and things like that, that they actually often lose, or don't have time to nurture those relationships ongoing because they're busy doing the work today and not necessarily. Building those relationships ongo ongoing. So so that's kind of how I came up with the idea. And so in my previous agency I would interview clients, but then it was just about that one client and fixing problems usually. Whereas now I'm speaking to a range of clients for one business, and then there's often themes that come out and then we can try and help. Improve ways of working and improve. You know, it could be anything from marketing to business strategy to processes, identifying new services clients were asking [00:14:00] for. And so that's kind of how I came into doing what I do.  Sarah: Hmm. I love that. Yeah. It it's so often you know, also in this marketing world, we're always taught to get new clients, right. Mm-hmm, , that's the whole idea of, of marketing as well. It's like, okay, let me help you to get more and more clients where, what you are saying is like, well actually, why don't you deepen the relationships with your existing or, or maybe even past clients, right? Yes. To me, what that brings up is kind of this. Idea of sustainability as well. Like don't just throw away your clients and move on to the next one, actually, you know, deepen that relationship. So I guess. Yeah. Tell us about the impact that you see. Just in a minute, but I would also say that probably also then leads to more referrals. If I think about it, it's like, well, since the relation relationship is deeper with your clients, well, then they will talk more about, you know, about [00:15:00] the service you provide to other people. Yeah. And it, what other impact  Remeny: is there? Well, I, I, I mean, that is certainly one of them. I've just, just interviewed someone a couple of hours ago and it was, it was definitely an advocate for the person I was interviewing for the agency I was working for. And the client was saying that you know, how much she loved. The supplier and how she'd become friends with them and how she's worked with this, this person, this business for years, right in the last three or four roles that she's been in mm-hmm because she trusts this person, absolutely implicitly, this, this organization. And you know, that in itself is like, you know, she is. The the best marketing tool you could have. Yeah. And so I say, I believe that if you can proactively try to nurture those relationships, your clients from, you know, happy enough clients to advocates, they are going to be the most powerful tool you've got in your, you know, marketing. Kit, because you can then ask them for advice on, you know, whether or not [00:16:00] it's, what marketing should we be doing or, or using they're getting their testimonials or their case studies and actually, you know, promoting your business with them, maybe in alignment or in collaboration with your clients as well is often opportunities there. But you were asking about other impact. I. I've seen lots of different areas of impact from, you know, obviously the marketing, but also I've had a number of occasions where clients have been saying, they, they really like the organization, the business, but actually they don't feel, for example, they might not be proactive enough, then it might not be thinking innovatively. Then I might not be thinking about the future and. and actually opportunities have come up for my clients to come up with new services or new products, right. To meet the needs of their clients. Yeah. And, and then they can then grow off the back of what their clients are actually asking for. Yeah. So I've had a couple of clients. I have one [00:17:00] client who. Their clients were all saying they wanted them to be more strategic. And within six months they were making 40% profit off the back of what their clients were asking for. Nice. I I've had other, I mean, impact. Sometimes the work, the findings I find can be quite difficult for, for a business to hear. It's not always good and it can be very uncomfortable. So, yeah. I'm  Sarah: gonna ask you about that. Cause I, I think you probably have some stories there as well. I do.  Remeny: And it's it's it is, I mean, people. Have to be quite brave to hear truly honest feedback. Yeah. Because it can be, it can be hard. And you know, I've had situations where I've interviewed clients and it's been really clear. There's one team member that might be causing trouble within the organization that is upsetting the clients and the clients are leaving. Cuz they mm-hmm don't feel they can feed that back. And actually you're gonna lose. Business, unless you're actually aware of what's going on within, within your organization.[00:18:00]  Yeah. And then act on it and then, but, you know, feed that back to your clients and make sure that you are. Showing that you can be vulnerable, but you are actually, you are trying to fix issues. And I mean, I had another client where their clients were finding the, the way they were being serviced with the product. Projects they were working on was so appalling that they were complaining. And again, they were leaving in droves and it was cause some of the processes were so bad and the way they were being treated was so negative that they were deeply unhappy. And so after speaking to their clients, Who all said they were felt like they were being over, over promised under delivered that once the, my client understood what was going on, they were able to fix those problems. Went to their clients, apologize was really open and upfront and said, look really sorry, but [00:19:00] you know, this is what we're going to do to fix it. And their satisfaction. Rating went from 22% to 74% over four months just by being honest. So I think, you know, that impact that can save reputation yeah.  Sarah: Is so good. So many things I wanna kind of go back to, I think the first one is what I heard you say, you know, when you talk to the clients of your clients, you really find out what they want and what they. What they, their expectations are. But sometimes as the people who are delivering, delivering the service or, or creating the products, we're not actually aware of what our clients really want. And so we give them what we think they need, but. You know, maybe it's completely the wrong thing. And so actually talking to your clients really gives you that information doesn't it? So that you can then adjust the business and say, oh, okay. And also adjust the marketing. Like, [00:20:00] because in, in marketing, if we are talking. About something that they don't actually want. Well, obviously that's gonna be a problem. Nobody's gonna buy our services anymore. Yes. So yeah, I think that that was such an important point you made there. I forgotten now. Oh, the other thing you know what, like, I, I Think about my humane marketing circle, where last year we did a, a town hall meeting and I said, look, let's get all together. And let's think about how we can make this circle even better next year. And it was just so helpful to hear different opinions and people, you know, say, well, actually I think the calls are too short and. Can we add this? Can we have a community platform? So really yeah, creating it almost together that I think is really helpful, but you're right. It also does take, you know, courage to say, what if they're gonna say we don't like it, or, you know, what, if these is issues come up, but that's why [00:21:00] transparency, I think is just so key. Mm. And. It takes  Remeny: courage. Yeah. yeah. And it might be that you, you are aware that there things aren't going quite as smoothly, but you don't know how to quite approach it. Yeah. And actually by having impartial feedback and, and interviewing impartially, it means that then the clients can feedback honestly. And then it opens those conversations up that might be difficult to have if you. Trying to do it yourself because it's, it's totally natural to try and defend your business or defend your people. Mm-hmm when actually it, and I think it's much easier for the clients to say. I'd rather not feed that back because it's much easier just to find someone else. Yeah. Actually when you fix things, clients become so much more loyal. Yeah. And you know, if you are saying, look, you know, I'm sorry, we've messed this up. Or, you know, understand that you're interested in this. Let's, let's talk open those conversations up and try [00:22:00] to do it with someone who's not going to take anything personally. Yeah.  Sarah: What are some things that you hear over and over again? Like complaints or  Remeny: just there's there's three, I'd say there's three complaints that come up the most frequently, and one of them is lack of. Processes or kind of not very strong processes or the clients are aware that the processes are failing here and there, which you don't want lack of productivity and lack of communication. So they're all really intertwined with each other. We've got good processes. Hopefully the other two will be fixed and equally, if you've got communication and you know, you are being more proactive with the way you're thinking, you can, oops, you can build things up and I mean, I believe gen generally that if you look at your customer journey or client journey, when are you speaking to them? When are you engaging with them? And then you think about that, the processes, proactivity and communication. At each one of those points. [00:23:00] Can you improve anything that you are doing with your clients to address any of those three things? I think every business could improve. Mm-hmm by doing that and ultimately bottom line be more human, you know, actually engage with your clients in a human way. And the other one that comes up, it's not so much as of a complaint, but I'm tied to the proactivity thing, but again, a lot of my clients. Clients say that they wish that their supplier were a bit more proactive and forward thinking and taking time to understand their business and then come up with solutions that were valuable for them. Mm-hmm . And so be being a bit more proactive with their thinking and, and ideas for how you can serve your clients better, which of course is going to bring you more business. If you are trying to think of ways of doing things better. Yeah.  Sarah: Can you give us an example of a process that they're [00:24:00] referring to? Are they referring to like customer experience or more like, you know, delivery process or, or what are, what is an  Remeny: example? With the, with the. Kind of proactivity or the, that side of things or no, you  Sarah: were saying processes process. Yeah.  Remeny: Yeah. Mm-hmm so, yeah. So pro pro processes kind of thinking about how. You might be delivering your service and you have a team of people working on something and mm-hmm and say your onboarding processes. Okay. You know, actually things might not be clear or, or who's doing what within a team. Yeah. Actually make it really clear who people are, what they're doing and who you should be getting in touch with for what, or you know, when you are delivering. Part of the service, make sure that the clients are clear on what is being delivered when, how you know, and the timings being really clear with your time scales and things like that. But just giving people [00:25:00] certainty of how things are working with your processes can improve things. And I think that causes frustration when people aren't clear. Yeah.  Sarah: That is uh, that's such a good point. I, I see that. You know, happening to, to me when I sign up for something and then, you know, the calendar isn't there and you have to go back and forth to find a date or, or like little things. Right. I'm thinking mainly about my solar printer, heart centered business owners, entrepreneurs, like the onboarding process is so important because that is the first. Kind of interaction that your client has with you. And so you can really either shine and, you know, just impress the heck of the client or everything can be a bit clunky and things are just not quite organized. And, and, and, and yeah, I think people do notice it. And yeah. If they talk to you, they'd probably say, yeah, isn't that  Remeny: great? yes. [00:26:00] And I think as well for the solo printers and the, the, the smaller businesses, it's an interesting one because they might not have a big team, but actually when you're speaking to your clients as a solo, talk to them about. Your processes and talk to them about what they want and how do they want those processes to work? Do they want weekly meetings? Do they want meetings monthly or, or do you want to do it so that you are, you know, how do you want to be. Treated and nurtured. And, and are you better on the phone or are you better on zoom or, you know, actually it's not, I mean, it's that old saying, you know, doers to unto others, as you do under your unto yourself, actually it's what do your clients want? It's not how you want to be working with, it's actually making sure that you are adaptable and you're flexible. So I think it's important to. Stay agile. And again, it's that human conversation. Yeah. And trust, you know, make sure that you build that trust and you know, you are honest and if you're gonna be late for something, there's always gonna be hiccups. That's fine. [00:27:00] Just tell your clients don't tide. Yeah.  Sarah: Okay. That's I think that's the, that's that integrity piece that is so essential here as well. Like if mm-hmm , you know, be true to your word. Yeah, and we do that in our marketing, but we don't, we also do that in our delivery and I, you know, find myself. Yeah, it's probably not a good thing, but I find myself judging when I don't see that integrity when, you know, someone promises something and, and I don't see it. I don't get it unless of course there's a good reason and they tell me, oh, I couldn't, you know, couldn't get it on time. Like you just mentioned, you know, communicate. But the integrity piece I think is so, so  Remeny: key there. Mm. And I think it goes back to that, you know, the humanizing business. Yeah. If you. If you are proactively human with your clients and the people you're working with, and you are honest and. I, I mean, sounds awful, but I think it opens up the opportunity for if you are going to mess up or you are not going to deliver [00:28:00] something. Cause you've been really honest and you've been really human and you've told them the truth all the way along. Right. If something's gonna go wrong, they're probably gonna forgive you much quicker. Yeah. If you've actually been upfront and say, look, sorry, this has happened and I will do what I can to make this happen. Yeah. People appreciate. Honesty.  Sarah: Yeah, it feels like I have this image of a, of a piggyback, you know, every time you did something good, you did something on time. There's like, you know, some money in your piggyback and then finally you're like, Ooh, I messed this one up. They're like, oh, it's fine. You know, piggy bank is full. So yes. So it really feels, yeah, you're right. They they'll forgive you much easier than yeah. Than if you kind of emptied the bank account  Remeny: more . Yes, exactly. And then the other thing that it reminds me of, again, from a lot of people's feedback is, is having the courage to challenge your clients. And again, I think for like solo pronouns or any business, but I [00:29:00] think the idea is, you know, you are the expert, you should be confident in what you're going to be delivering and your clients. Yes. You know, they say clients are always right, but they're not always right. And they don't know everything. And actually, I think it's important to have the confidence to challenge your clients sometimes and tell them, no, you know, this isn't. Quite right. I don't think this is gonna get you the results you want, you know, have a discussion with them and be brave about the fact that you know, your stuff and, you know, have that human conversation. Don't just say yes, yes, yes. Mm-hmm because then when things go wrong. Well, You've got you. Haven't got a leg to stand on if you said, well, you know, yes, I just did what you said, but I mean, you, you can PR maybe just hide behind that, but I think you get better results. If you can actually be honest about your belief, don't just do what you want. And also don't just say, yes, I'll deliver, I'll deliver the I'll deliver because that's what you want. If you can't say so. Yeah. So [00:30:00] again, it's having those honest conversations. That's a good  Sarah: point because I, I, I think that as well, takes courage, right? To tell your client actually, yeah. I don't think that this text or this, you know, whatever it is that they did, it's not gonna. Go well, you know, like I think you should work on it again, or here's some changes that I suggest and, and, and yes, that's your job actually. That's, you know, what they pay you for is to help. Help guide them through whatever you maybe already have been through, especially in the, in the service business. Right. So exactly. So yeah, it, it, it, it takes courage, but at the same time, it it's key. And the other thing that came up for me is boundaries. I think that's another thing that, you know, you establish. Boundaries as the, as the entrepreneur that also gives your client kind of You know, it gives those, it [00:31:00] gives them the, the, the, the idea that yes, you're there for them, but they can't abuse you either. Yeah. So before you were talking about flexibility where flexibility. Yes, it's good to a certain point, but I don't think we need to overstep our boundaries either. No. So that we still have. You know, respect somehow. It's like, oh, I have my personal life as well. And here's where I put the limits on my time or whatever. Remeny: Yes, no, I absolutely agree. And I think it's, and I think it's fair enough to have those. You've got to have those boundaries and otherwise people will take advantage and, and you've got to have, I mean, you were saying right at the beginning that you know, that the idea of that the partnership, right. And I'm a really strong believer in. Building again, proactively thinking about your relationships with your clients in a way that's relationship led and not transactional led. It is a partnership it's in your best interest to do a great job for your clients, because it means you can then start [00:32:00] singing and shouting about it and equally your clients should be wanting to shout about you because you've done a great job and it's something you'll both be proud of. And I think it's, you know, it shouldn't be just about the money and, you know, Again, this, this client, I was just doing an interview for, they love my client and he was, she was saying, you know, quite often he'll come back and I'll say, can you do this? And he is like, well, no, because that's not gonna get you anywhere. And, and it does him a disservice because he's coming out worse off financially, but she said, but the thing is I trust him completely. So I will always go with him because he. You know, I have used him for years in all my different roles. I could never not work with him. Mm-hmm and we're friends now. And you think, well, gosh, that's what everyone should aspire to. Yeah. Is having those honest human relationships with your clients. Yeah. Yeah.  Sarah: The one thing that I keep coming back to in my head is, is, you know, we've talked [00:33:00] about referrals, so we're, we're getting more referrals. How else can we use our clients or customers voice in our marketing? You know, obviously there's the, the testimonials. I, I think there's definitely positives about that, but at the same time, We're kind of maybe tired of these testimonials because they're all, they're always positives of testimonials, right? Yes. So you're like, well, you know, is that the only thing or is there other things?  Remeny: Well, I, I, I think that one of, I mean, a number of my clients have come to me because they dunno how to differentiate themselves. And actually, you know, there's so much out there nowadays and you've got the web, you know, there's so much competition, but one of the things that I find by interviewing people's clients. I find out what it is that they like about the business and why do they work with them? Why did they choose them? What was the, the message that made them buy mm-hmm ? And if you can get that information, you can then use that [00:34:00] in your marketing. It's not testimonial, right? You start to see those themes and actually you can then start utilizing that in your design and your marketing and your, your processes and, and use the words your clients use. to describe what you do and why they buy, and then hopefully that'll resonate with your other clients. And I mean, the other thing is, is understanding your ideal clients and understanding why, who they are. And again, why they like you and you like them. And then think, how can I replicate that? Mm-hmm . And so thinking about how you can mirror your ideal clients, you've gotta understand who those ideal clients are and why they're your ideal clients before. you can do that. Mm-hmm . And so I think again, doing that, doing this piece can be valuable because you can start to recognize that and then plot your ideal customer journey or potential clients and, and move on going that way, using that [00:35:00] in your marketing. Mm-hmm  Sarah: I'm curious I've heard or read somewhere that, you know, on the testimonial page, again, back to that, how. Usually we only have very positive testimonials and this one person, I can't remember who it was. It said it's actually not a bad thing to have one, not so great testimonial just to kind of show that the other ones are real, you know? Yes. Not made up. What do you think about  Remeny: that approach? Well, the first thing that jumped in my mind was that's very brave. mm-hmm yeah. I think, I mean, it's, you know, I'm thinking about it. And I think one of the things that would be an interesting approach to that is not necessarily in the testimonials, but having a case study mm-hmm where you admit that maybe things didn't go well at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. And you addressed it. And even saying it's still a work in process progress. I think that would be a really interesting thing. I think I, I mean, yes. If, if you, if you can do that, [00:36:00] I mean, my own, my only worry about having a negative testimonial is I might think, well, they've scraped the barrel. why did they put this one? Can they put that one in? That's just really bad, but I think you could do it as a story. Yeah. And, you know, because. Yeah. Showing that you're human and make people make mistakes. Yeah. And, and use it in that way, showing that you  Sarah: listen. I like to yeah. The idea of using it in a story and, and oftentimes I guess the not so good testimonials you also later realize, well, actually it just probably wasn't the ideal client. Why did I. You know, accept the work with them. And I, I didn't do my best job because it was just not a great fit. Yeah. And sometimes explaining that then helps the real ideal client realize. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm different. [00:37:00] So I understand why this person was not an ideal fit and, and I am. Yeah. Yeah.  Remeny: I mean, it's like the whole, you know, Seth golden and the purple cows, you know, you shouldn't be for everyone and actually by honing in on what you are good at and what's special about you. Yeah. Means you can then get to the right people who will chime and, and you can then collaborate with and work with them. So, yeah, I think it's a, it's a good point, but yeah, I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be putting a bad test to  Sarah: move me up, but , I haven't tried it yet. Yeah. I, I, I remember when I first launched a marketing, like we're human book I kind of saw, you know, I launched it on Kickstarter and so there was also kind of. Friends in there or not friends, like, you know, acquaintances that I met networking events and this one guy, he, he was kind enough to send it to me via email first. And he is like, oh, I'm really sorry, but I'm gonna give you a two star review. I'm like, okay, can you [00:38:00] just hold on with that? I'm gonna get some good ones first. Wow. And, and, and so, yeah, it was just, you know, he was a, a real corporate marketer that yes, quit his job, but he was still very much or still is very much in advertising and, and big, you know, corporate campaigns and stuff. And so, yeah, clearly, you know, a book about marketing, like where human. Didn't resonate with him. Yeah. So I told him, well, just hold onto it a little bit longer and I haven't gone back to him yet to post  Remeny: like Hmm. Maybe not yeah. Maybe not. But it's interesting. And I think you're right. It's, it's, it's recognizing that you aren't gonna be for everyone and, and actually that's fine. Yeah. And that's fine. You know, you're gonna get much more traction with the right people if you get the right story. But again, you know, that's, it's identifying. What the right story is and the right people it are, and then, you know, embracing that. [00:39:00]  Sarah: Yeah. So, so tell me kind of in closing how you do that with your clients to really make them understand that it's all about the human interactions and, you know, focus on, on the human. Do they all all understand it when they hear back from their clients? Or is there sometimes also kind of like a defensive reaction?  Remeny: It varies. I mean, sometimes, you know, I think the thing is if people are using me to speak to their clients, to get that honest feedback they're going to, there are surprises, but they're obviously open to hearing about the need for change possible possibly or improvements or developments. And that's why they want to use someone like me to do to do that. Right. But I think they. You know, I think, again, that defensive thing is an interesting one because of course that's, you know, people compare me to a marriage counselor for businesses because I'm that safe place that people can talk [00:40:00] to. Then I will feed it back, even though sometimes it can be quite harsh. Right. But it's then, you know, don't. Despair when you get the negative, because actually the negative is a great opportunity. You can now grow and change and then go back to those clients and say, Hey, look, we recognize that we wanted to develop things and we want to speak to you about how we can make things better with you equally. It might be that. We recognize we don't wanna work with you, you know, mm-hmm and actually, I mean, I've interviewed people before and I've spoken to my client and said, why are you working with that? with that person. Yeah. You know, they're awful. and actually, you know, that doesn't happen very often, but I think it's kind of, it's recognizing that you, you shouldn't be working with everyone. Yeah. And actually getting that honest feedback is. Is a gift because then you can improve. So I mean, most of my clients have, you know, taken on board and made the changes and develop things and speak to their clients and their clients really like it. They like the fact that they're [00:41:00] being listened to. And, and I also think that it's important to be accountable to your clients. So make sure you feed back and you. Keep that process up, but it's about being that human thing is it's. Yeah. It's about proactively being human with your clients. Yeah. And nurturing those relationships, opening those conversations up. So it's not just me interviewing people. I'll then say to my clients, you know, make sure you schedule time in to speak to your clients. In a way that isn't just about the transactional work. You're not human  Sarah: clients, please, you know,  Remeny: oh. And so put those processes in place so that you are, you are speaking to your clients and also remember to speak to clients at different stages of the journey from when you've won or lost project you know, middle of the project end of the project, six months later, you know, just keep those conversations going as a. As a human talking to a human, you know, actually how's it going?  Sarah: Exactly. Not just, oh, you wanna do more work together? You know, that's, especially what we hear. It's [00:42:00] like, oh yeah. Follow up six months after so that you can seldom something else. Yes. Well how about just, yeah. Check in. How are you doing? You know?  Remeny: Yes, yes. Or if that's, then, then there's also the proactivity bit mm-hmm , which actually, you know, proactively look at how you could help your clients better. You know, look at how their what's happening in their life and their world and what can you do to make it better for them and for their clients. Mm-hmm and I think that's a an important point. I mean, with COVID I was, you know, it became very much about not just about getting feedback, but it was understanding the client's challenges yeah. With what was going on. And, but then also the opportunities, because, you know, things can be good and Again, another tip that I I've learned from interviewing is that don't look for, don't just give your client solutions, make sure you understand the business and. Challenges of the clients before you go back with, we [00:43:00] could do this, we could do that. That's just annoying. Mm. You know, actually know why should you give them that, you know, is that gonna be valuable? So, but you need to understand your clients as humans and their business, to be able to serve them better. Sarah: And that leads back to time and listening, because if you don't take the time and don't listen, well, then. Yes. You're being proactive, but without really knowing what they really want. Yeah,  Remeny: exactly. Exactly.  Sarah: Yeah. So where would you say are listeners? So mainly solo printers, small business owners, consulting coaches, where do they start, you know, with finding out more about what their clients really are  Remeny: thinking? Well, I think my, I mean, you know, if you are gonna be doing it yourself, either do it so that you Th think about your different clients, your unengaged clients, to your engaged, to your advocates, and think about, you know, put a list together and then think of some questions where you can actually start to [00:44:00] ask them. Questions about improvement and how you are doing and the service and what they're doing and understanding their pains and their, their challenges, but equally looking at things that you could do to improve your communication or whatever it might be. And then either get someone. In your team who isn't directly involved with your project to interview them or do it yourself. If you haven't got someone else within your team or someone who's completely external to do it. But I think. You know, obviously if you've got someone external, you get much more impartial, honest feedback, but I think if you're brave enough to do it yourself, your clients will appreciate the fact you are asking their opinion and you are asking for ideas for improvement. And, and then, but don't just do that. You then need to act on it. so you need to, you know, look at what your clients are saying, and then put a plan into place to actually start to improve whatever it is that they're saying. And then feedback to your clients. Say, Hey, this is what we're doing. Thank you so much for that [00:45:00] advice. Or those ideas or whatever it might be and be accountable to your clients, but keep the conversation going and also just make sure that even if you aren't interviewing them, like I said earlier, make sure you put a process in place where you are speaking to your clients at different points and so that you can be constantly nurturing those relationships and building that trust. Sarah: Mm, so good. Yeah. It it's so much more than just your survey monkey or, you know, like yes. Those type form surveys that you send out and then often you don't ever hear back. You're like, wait a minute. I just. You know, spend 10 minutes giving my feedback and then there's no return, like, yes. What's the point. What's the point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think those surveys actually work or do we always need to like talk  Remeny: to the people? I think I think they're good to a point, not too many questions, make it really quick. [00:46:00] Mm-hmm there's things like the net promoter scores. I think it's good to a point because it can give you a flavor for how your clients might be feeling right. You know, and, and you can get in essence, but then I think. Then potentially pull out a selection that you could actually have a conversation with. Yeah. Because it's that in depth insight that you can then start to really understand what your clients are thinking or feeling. I, and, and again, I think I said earlier is get a range of different clients from happy to unhappy because you'll often get the same feedback, but just in a different way. And like you were saying with your circle, Actually just asking people for ideas. It's amazing. I mean, it's like, that's what I love about what I do is I'm just getting people to give me lots of ideas to help the business. Yeah. And it's like, well, wow, that was good. Now we've got sort of lots of ideas, how the business, you know, my clients can improve because that's what their clients are saying. So it's kind of, and they feel special. And if your clients [00:47:00] know that you've done something, they feel heard and seen, they, they feel heard. Yeah. And everyone. To be heard it's such a human thing, you know? So this  Sarah: has been been so good. Thank you  Remeny: so much, right. Well, thank you. I hope I haven't gone. Thought got too overexcited about my listening and  Sarah: I, I know we, we could do another episode just on, on, on this, but it's been really, really good. Thank you so much. Do share with people where they can find you and learn more about you and your work.  Remeny: Oh, thank you so much. Well, my website is brilliant in human.com. And I'm easy to find on LinkedIn. It's just linkedin.com. And then I'm Rey, RM E N Y. That's my I mean, I might there's Rey Armitage, but I'm fairly easy to find. There's not many of me . But yeah. Thank you so much.  Sarah: Yeah, thank you. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week?  Remeny: Friends and the support of friends. [00:48:00] mm, I think that's what I would say. Yeah. So  Sarah: thank you. Thank you. We'll speak again soon.  Remeny: Definitely. Thank you so much. Sarah: Thanks F.[00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00] [00:52:00] 

It was such a pleasure to talk to Sarah Harkness. Sarah is a former partner at Arthur Andersen who had a career in corporate finance and then as a non-executive director. She is now a literary late bloomer. She has self-published a book about the Victorian artist Nelly Erichsen. She has an MA in Biography from the University of Buckingham, where she studied with with Jane Ridley. She won the Tony Lothian Prize, 2022. And she is now writing a biography of the Victorian publisher Alexander Macmillan and his brother which will be published next year. We talked about Sarah's career, her long-held ambitions, what she learned from corporate finance, her views on talent spotting, Alexander Macmillan, how Sarah would try to discover other late bloomers lurking in the wrong jobs, and why a business career helps you to understand Victorian literature.Being a Late Bloomer and Alexander MacMillanHenry: Are you a late bloomer?Sarah: My husband says I should be very annoyed at that question because he says I've been marvellous all along. I think I'm a late bloomer if in the blooming bit, which is that I'm now doing something that makes me really unconditionally happy, whereas before I did a lot of stuff that was sometimes important and sometimes well paid, but I never enjoyed it half as much as what I'm doing now.Henry: So, let's start with just briefly, what are you doing that makes you really happy now?Sarah: I have a contract to write a book that a proper-publishing house says they're going to publish. So I'm writing a biography, a double biography called The Brothers of Daniel and Alexander Macmillan, who founded MacMillan publishing 180 years ago. And it's taken me a while, but I've got an agent and I've got a publishing contract, and I need to submit a manuscript in the next eight months, and it will come out in 2024 all being well. And that's making me very happy.Henry: Good, and that's the grandfather or great-grandfather of the prime minister?Sarah: Daniel is the grandfather of the prime minister, and Alexander, who's the one who really built the business after Daniel died, is his great uncle.Henry: So an interesting family for more than just their business interests.Sarah: Yeah. And I mean, fantastic achievers themselves because Daniel and Alexander were born into absolute poverty on the West Coast of Scotland. Their father was a carter, who died when they were young boys. Daniel left school at 10, Alexander when he was 15. And by the mid-1860s, Alexander is one of the literary hosts of London, and within two generations, they have an offspring who will be prime minister and married into the Duke of Devonshire's family, it's quite a climb.Henry: So, what we're talking about, this is really the Victorian self-made man?Sarah: Absolutely. Samuel Smiles and all his glory, absolutely.Henry: Yeah, yeah, we love Samuel Smiles.Sarah: Yeah, same.Henry: So, where does your interest in that type of subject or person come from?Sarah: Well, there's a basic love of all my period, of all the periods of history and all the periods of literature, Victorian times would be absolutely bang on is what I know most about. I'm very comfortable working in that time, and I love the books and the poetry from that time. The way I found it was very serendipitous, which was that my husband collects art and had found a lot of art by a big, very unknown Victorian woman painter. And I researched her life, and the more I researched it, the more I thought I need to write this down, and it turned into a book that no one would publish, but people said to me, "Write about someone we've heard of and come back to us," and that's a really hard question because almost everyone you've heard of has got a book. That's why you've heard of them, but I had a stroke of luck, which was literally in the research on the book about... The artist is called Nelly Erichsen, and in my research on her, she was a neighbour of the MacMillan family in South London in the 1870s, and related by marriage, sort of in a hop and a skip to the MacMillan family, so she knew the MacMillans, she stayed with the MacMillans. And I did research the MacMillan family to write about Nelly, and there wasn't a book, there haven't been a book since the 19... Since 1940. So there was an opening to do a book because most people have heard of MacMillan Publishing, most people would think it was interesting to understand how that had been started and no one has written about it for 80 years. So that was the stroke of luck, I think.Henry: So it comes from a kind of a long-term immersion in the period and a very indirect discovery of the subject matter?Sarah: It does, it does. I mean, I have been talking about Nelly Erichsen and her bit of Tooting where she lived and the people that she knew for, gosh, nearly 20 years now, so I mean it is a long immersion, but it took me a very long time to have confidence to show anyone what I was writing about it.Early interest in VictoriansHenry: Yeah. And that if we go back 20 years, is that where you start sort of reading and working on this?Sarah: Yes.Henry: Or had you been reading about the Victorians from earlier?Sarah: I think that... I mean, I did PPE at Oxford, but my favourite paper and finals was Victorian social political history, so the 1860s is bang on the period. I think all the time I was working and having a career, I was reading my way through Trollope and Dickens and George Eliot, so... And Tennyson. So that in that way, and it's the sort of art I like, so it is definitely my spot, but I had never thought about researching online, finding out about anyone and writing it down until, yeah, 15 years ago when I started doing that.Henry: But when you started doing that, you'd actually had years of reading the novels, being immersed in the period, it goes back, you were ready, you weren't just coming to this out of nowhere?Sarah: Yes, I wasn't, I wasn't. And it does remind me that about... Well, it was at the time when my children were babies, I wanted to give up work and study Victorian literature. I mean, I felt then that it was something I wanted to do, and I had an idea of writing... The book that inspired me was some Anthony Trollope's The Way We Live Now.Henry: Fantastic book.Sarah: And I was fascinated, yeah, fascinated by the Melmotte character and I wanted to do an MA or something that would allow me to write, to use the knowledge I had at the city today against what was Trollope writing about, I thought that would be interesting. So I have thought about it 25 years ago, and that had to absolutely no encouragement from anyone to do anything about it. So I didn't, I kept working, but it's funny that that's almost where I've ended back up, which is looking at Victorian literature.Henry: Yeah, it's like a... It's a deep vein that runs through your life and now it's come to the surface.Sarah: It is, it is, absolutely.Sarah in the City: business expertise as a literary advantageHenry: So, you've hinted it that you did PPE, you were in the city, tell us, because you were already blooming before, you are not a late bloomer, you're a repeat bloomer, tell us what was happening when you weren't being a Victorian writer.Sarah: So, I went from Oxford into the city into a corporate finance house that was part of NatWest Bank, so we call that NatWest markets, and I did corporate finance, so flotations, mergers, takeovers, raising money from 1983 right the way through to 1990s. In the 1990s, I left London and moved up to Yorkshire, but I kept working. And at that point, I had small children, so I was working three or four days a week, working in Leeds doing corporate finance. And then there was a big excitement in 1998 because I left NatWest and took my team into Arthur Andersen, which at the time caused a bit of a fuss and a bit of a stir. And I had three or four... Four years at Arthur Andersen. And then Arthur Andersen went into liquidation. And at that point, I'd been doing corporate finance for nearly 20 years and I'd had enough of it, and there were a lot of young and unpleasant young men coming up who didn't think that women in their 40s with children should be stopping them doing what they wanted to do. So I did head-hunting for a little while, and then I started becoming a non-executive director, so I became plural. And I'm still plural, I still do trustee jobs, and audit jobs, non-executive director jobs.Henry: So you, in three different ways, at Arthur Andersen, and then as a head-hunter, and then as a non-exec, you've actually been a senior person. You've been running an area of a business, you've had that kind of oversight?Sarah: Yeah.Henry: Does this help you... You've got the background reading Trollope and understanding the character of Melmotte, but you've also got the background as actually a business person. So when you look at someone like MacMillan, if you hadn't done that career, you would have had less insight. Do you sort of...Sarah: I think that's right, I think that's right. I've spent some time in the archives just the other week looking at the partnership deeds from when he set the business up. I've looked at... There had to be a court case in Chancery when Daniel's widow died because she died in testate and there was a risk that the partnership would have to be dissolved and split around his children. So to me, that makes sense. The big risks that he takes, like moving from Cambridge to London, and then at the moment, I'm really interested in him opening an office in New York, which he did in 1869. I mean to me, that is about a business risk. And then, this little small bit. So at the time when I was running an office in Leeds, I was very conscious of how vulnerable you feel when you are not in the head-office, when you are running a satellite. And I've been reading this week, the letters coming back from New York to London, from the poor chap that Alexander sent out to New York. And I can... I mean, I could have written those letters, you know, "Just tell me what's going on?" "What are your plans?" "What do you mean your son's coming to work here?" "Is that alright? Is that a good sign?" And so that to me is business as well, so I do recognise a lot of it.Henry: Yeah, that's a timeless problem, especially in big-business today, right, global businesses?Sarah: It is, it is. "How do you make everyone feel equally important?" and, "How do you manage something that's the other side of the ocean?"Henry: So your book will be interesting, not just from a sort of literary and social-history perspective, but for people in business or people trying to understand how to be a manager.Sarah: I hope so, I hope so. Alexander did an enormous amount all on his own, but as I move on, he's going to start running a more complex business. And I haven't really gotten into that yet. He's got one partner and he's just set up, sent someone to New York. But it will become more interesting. And then, how he's gonna bring the sons and nephews into the business, is gonna be fascinating. Because they didn't all want to come in at the same time and he's got to manage that as well. So it is a business book.Henry: So he's a sort of... He's a great publisher with an eye for a book, he's a great businessman who can cut deals and manage money, and he's also important as a people manager.Sarah: He is, he is, and seems to manage that well. Other firms are not nearly as successful as MacMillan, avoid the wrong people. He never really gets anything... The big calls, he doesn't get them wrong. He never has a big failure. If he launches a magazine, he goes on supporting it, it survives. If he launches an office in New York, it becomes... MacMillan, New York, becomes bigger than MacMillan, England. He doesn't make bad calls, he is a good manager.Henry: And where does that come from? Because he grew up... He did not grow up around business people. Where does that come from?Sarah: He certainly didn't, he certainly didn't. I don't know, that's really interesting. I mean, I think he was much more entrepreneurial than his brother was. The business really takes off when Daniel dies. Daniel was driven by a Christian missionary spirit. He was driven by Christian socialism, he wanted to bring good-quality and religious literature to the masses and the working man. And he saw it as... He wasn't well enough to go to India, so this was his mission. Alexander goes along with that and is fascinated by the Christian socialist side, but he also wants to make money. And I think some of it might just be, you know... He wakes up one day in 1857, and suddenly he's responsible for eight children, his wife, and a widow, people who work for him. He really has to grip it or he'll sink. And he grips it. But how and why? Apart from sheer bravery, I don't know how he got to do that. He didn't have any models, he wasn't being mentored by anyone else in the industry, they all saw him as a Scottish upstart. So there's one guy he talks to who's a publisher in Edinburgh called MacLehose, but he becomes much more successful than MacLehose.Henry: Was he a late-bloomer?Sarah: Alexander? So when Daniel dies, he... How old is he? He's nearly 40, he's nearly 40. And up until then, yes, he's been the second fiddle in the business. He's had a ton of energy. I mean, if you research him, he's living in Cambridge, running a shop in Cambridge, but he's also... He's on the board of the Working Men's College that they establish. He's doing stuff with the YMCA in Cambridge. He's a parish overseer. He has a ton of energy, and he talks about... You know, he was up reading throughs till 2:00 in the morning, and he was up again at 6:00 to get a train to London. His wife must have been pulling her hair out, I would think. [laughter] So he was a man of phenomenal energy, and not good health, he suffered badly from sciatica and various other problems. He was sometimes frustrated with pain, but he never gave up. He's quite a hero.Henry: Yeah, he is. He sounds really interesting. I'm really looking forward to this book. So, I want to go back over your... We've had the summary of your life. I want to get into some details because it's really, really interesting how you kept to yourself those interests and ambitions for so long, and obviously lots of people do that. Lots of people leave university and they've got a thing that they really, they're passionate about, but they end up as an accountant or whatever, and it just sort of slowly dies, or they realise they're not quite as interested as all that, or life gets in the way, or they have kids. Why didn't it go away for you? Because when you were a senior at Arthur Andersen, you were pretty busy, right?Sarah: Yeah, and I don't think, if you'd said to me... If you had said to me when I was a senior at Arthur Andersen, "Would you still like to write a book?" I just said, "Don't be daft, of course not." [laughter] But my huge frustration with Andersen, and I had some mentoring at the time from a coach who said to me, "The problem you have is that you have a person who needs choice and the more involved in one particular job you get, the more you push, get pushed down a tunnel, the less happy you will be, Sarah, because you like to wake up every morning and you think, I'm gonna do something different today. What am I going to do today? What am I going to do today?" And that's the life I now have. And it's the life I've had since the day I walked out of Arthur Andersen in 2002, which is every day I've done something a bit different. And the lucky break that happened to me was the collapse of Andersen could have been a disaster, but actually it gave me a lump sum and it gave me freedom to explore, bend my career to suit my children and my circumstances, and it gave me time to discover the things I liked doing.Henry: Do you think... So one thing that separates a lot of late bloomers from early bloomers, although as discussed you were an early bloomer, but it's that early bloomers often have a mentor or they belong to a small group of their peers. So they have people that they can experiment with and have ideas with, or they have someone saying, "Don't be an idiot, you need to do this, why haven't you written to that person or whatever." And late bloomers often just don't have this.Sarah: No.Henry: But I've got a little theory that it probably wouldn't have made any difference. And that in a way, you're... Tell me if this is right, you're quite a divergent person.Sarah: Yeah.Henry: But you were in a very narrow life.Sarah: I was.Henry: And the only mentorship that you required was for someone to say, as they said to you, you're in the wrong game here.Sarah: Yes.Henry: And you needed to take your own time, you needed to take your own path. There's something innate about, or just in your personality, that means you were never going to write a book when you were 25.Sarah: No.Henry: And the other experiences you gathered along the way were part of that divergence. What do you think of that as a sort of model of you and of other late bloomers?Sarah: I certainly think that there was no way when I was in my 20s and 30s, anyone that I knew, socialised with or worked with would have had any interest at all in what interested me. I mean, none of them read. None of them went to the theatre like I went to the theatre. None of them had the interest in film that I had. And at the time, I was married into the medical profession, and they absolutely weren't. So I mean at business they weren't interested, medics aren't interested, or don't have time to be fair to them. So it had to be just in my head and what I read and what I started listening to once you started getting audio books and I had time. So definitely there was no one around in my 20s who would have given me any encouragement to do anything different, and I was sucked into a job that was very high, very exciting, very high pressure and very rewarding, and then I had children, which we know, really upped the confusion of life. And I was just lucky that at the age of 40 I was relaxed and comfortable enough to be able to start spending my time with people who were encouraging.Henry: How unusual do you think it is to have... You do PPE, you work in corporate finance, but you've also got a strong interest in literature and the arts, and as you say, you don't do...Sarah: Really unusual. I can think... Of all the people I worked with right through for NatWest under Andersen, I can remember the one guy who, if you went on a business trip with him would open his briefcase to get out a book. He was a wonderful man, he was called Simon Metgrove, and he carried poetry around his briefcase. I remember him. He is the only one. I mean, no one else did, they read the... They read the FT, they talked about business. There was a lot of heavy drinking. It just, it wasn't part of the culture at all, and I didn't live with anyone who read like I read either. So it was completely me on my own blowing my own little furrow.Henry: Where does this joint interest come from? Is that parents, school, Oxford? Is it something you just always remember?Sarah: I think from my parents. I think particularly from my mother who had, came from a very, very poor background, left school as fast as she could when war broke out and got a job at the age of 16. And then after she married, my dad became a more senior civil servant. My mum discovered she needed and wanted to educate herself, so when I was growing up, my mother was doing WEA classes, and talking to me because I was by far the youngest child, so I was more or less at home on my own with her. She would talk to me about an essay she had to write on Jane Austin or she was reading T.S. Eliot, and she would talk to me about it all the time. So that was very encouraging. And she knew poetry, and that's... I've passed on to my children who are all interested in literature in their way. That background, if you need to... You know the stories, you know every Jane Austin, you know your Dickens, you know your poems. That comes from my mum and my dad as well. Yeah.Henry: Sounds like your mum was a bit of a late bloomer.Sarah: I think she was a frustrated, never bloomed because she was that generation of just they stated at home, and it didn't do her any good at all. She was quite an unhappy woman.Henry: Do you have her in mind as a sort of model of she went back and started doing that education and was that something that was just with you?Sarah: I think it probably was, I think it made sense to me that I could do an MA when I was 55, because my mother would have thought that was a sensible thing to do. If I had the time and the money, and then why wouldn't I do it? So yeah, it seems perfectly sensible to me, I didn't think it was odd. My husband had done one as well, and he was... I've never had any education at all, and did an MA ten years ago, so.Henry: Oh great.Sarah: Yeah, University of Buckingham.Henry: Oh very good.[laughter]Henry: And how did you end up at Oxford?Sarah: Oh, I came from a tiny Grammar School in Dorset that sent one girl to Oxford or Cambridge about every three or four years, so it felt like quite a lonely process. And I had massive imposter syndrome. I didn't get into the college I applied to, but there's a college in Oxford, Mansfield, that used to just collect all the best people that didn't get into any of the other colleges. We were all there with chips on our shoulders because we haven't got into some St. John's or Balliol and the others. And it was an incredibly good atmosphere, but it's still, there were two issues, one was Oxford was still dominated by the public schools, and I was a Grammar School girl.And Oxford was dominated by the big confident academic colleges, and I was at the college no one had heard of, so spinning out of that and into the city, just felt like that was a bit of a weird stroke of luck, because even though I was at Oxford doing PPE, I didn't feel like I was... I didn't feel like I had... It would never have occurred to me to become academic when I left university. I wasn't going to get a first, I wasn't going to do that.Henry: But did this thing about imposter syndrome and sort of being in a marginal position, is that quite good because it does encourage you to sort of keep seeing yourself as divergent and keep seeing yourself as not quite in the right place. It preserves that energy of well, I'm here, but I'm not going to stay here, whereas if you'd got into the right college and being more accepted, maybe you would have just a bit more easily slipped into a, staying on the track, if you like.Sarah: Maybe, maybe. But I don't feel that I was a very assertive person when I started work. To me, working my way up through the city, I would contrast myself with mostly men who were working around me, all of whom had a time table, I've got to be an assistant director by this age and I'm going to be director by this age, then I'm going to go out and join a real company and I'm going to make money. And I was just wanted to keep my job and keep doing it.And not get in any trouble. But then what used to happen is I would get to know someone at my level, and I think, well, other clever people in the next room because he's not very bright, and then why is he gonna get promoted and not me? Because I think I'm better. So I think there's a bit of that chippiness or edginess which makes you... Which can make you push on a bit harder, but it certainly didn't drive me. I was always a bit surprised, to be honest, I was always a bit surprised when I got promoted, I was a bit surprised when Andersen hired me and I was very surprised when that got in the papers. It was always a bit of a surprise to me. So I didn't have much confidence.Henry: As you talk about your background, it sounds a bit like there are parallels between you and McMillan. You don't come from an Arthur Andersen background, but there you are and you become very successful, just like he didn't come from that. Is that part of what interests him to you, like, are you writing about yourself?Sarah: Well, I haven't thought of that, but I think I absolutely am sensitive. So I feel for him when I know how much he did for certain Victorian writers, and I go to their memoirs and diaries and letters, and he hardly gets a mention. And I know because I can see all the letters he wrote to them where he said, "You've got to change the title, you've got to take out half that book, why don't you write about this instead." I can see what he was giving to them, and then you go to the index of some of their books, and he gets a one line or it mentions that this is something I wrote in Macmillan magazine. I am very sensitive to Alexander 's, feeling that people took him for granted, didn't give him any due reward, and I suspect he... Yeah, I suspect, I do imagine that he felt some of the stuff that I felt, which is, have I got any right to be in this room and actually now I've met them, they're not a bright as I thought they were gonna be. And you could see his confidence grows in the '60s, he definitely becomes a lot more assertive with his authors during the '60s.Henry: Oh, really?Sarah: Yeah, the more he spends time with them, the firmer he gets about I'm not publishing that, this isn't good enough, he takes on Lady Caroline Norton and that's quite a brave thing to do.And I think he wins, so that's very hard to tell.Henry: I always have a slightly, not very well-informed view, but a view that there was less editing of novels in the 19th century, and that Thomas Hardy dropped off his manuscript and they printed it, and that was that. You seem to have found a lot of material that suggests that the authors wouldn't talk about it, but that their work more edited quite heavily.Sarah: I think their work was edited quite heavily. And particularly, so the complication is the ones who are submitting for something for serialisation in a magazine, I think they were just so relieved to get at each month and another month that turned up. 'Cause you know that they were writing up to the deadline. So that didn't get edited, but then sometimes you can see at Macmillan saying, "When we turn this into a book, we're gonna do something different with it." That definitely happens. He does it to Charles Kingsley, Water Babies when it comes out as a book, has been edited from what appeared in the magazine. And what the other author, Mrs. Oliphant published a serial in the magazine, and he definitely got her to change it before it went into the book. So he did have an influence on these people, you wouldn't get from either their biographies or autobiographies.Life LessonsHenry: No. So this sort of feeling that you've described as almost a chip on the shoulder feeling, I think this is potentially an advantage because when I look at some of the scientific research on late bloomers, one thing you notice is, take scientists, for example. A lot of scientists make their breakthrough when they are young, but when people have researched this and said why is that, it's because a lot of scientists stop working once they get tenure or once they win a prize or whatever. The scientists who do carry on working, keep making breakthroughs. [chuckle] So it's actually not because there's anything special about being young, it's because that's when people are really trying. If you don't ever settle into, the people you have met who are on a time table, "I'm going to be a director at this age," they get there and they settle in and, great. They can cruise through for a bit. But if you never settle into that or you retain the chip or you retain the sort of feeling of oh, God. Oh, God. Should I really be here? That's actually quite good because it keeps you energetic and it keeps you looking and it keeps you thinking "What am I going to do? What am I going to do?" Do you think there's a kind of... I don't know. Was that part of your success and Alexander's success that it... You never settled for what you had.Sarah: Yeah. I think that's right and there's something else I would see a parallel, which is I was not the greatest corporate financier in terms of my grasp of numbers and I'm hopeless at negotiation. But what I was doing, which most of my colleagues weren't, is I can market and sell. I'm interested in people and I used to go and win business. I used to bring it back and then other people would transact it, but that's certainly what I did in Yorkshire. I was out all the time meeting people because I was interested and I wanted to know what they did and what they did and how does that business work.So I was always out looking and I never wanted to just sit at my desk and shout at people and run the numbers again. I wasn't very good at any of that, but I think I can see that in Alexander too. I mean, Alexander recruits a partner in the mid-1860s to take the back end off him because he just wants to be out meeting new authors and that's what he's gonna be good at and George Lillie Craik is going run the numbers and have the fights with the printers and talk to America. So I can see that and I think that is... You're not that interested in the day job, you're interested in the next idea and the next interesting thing that's gonna grab your attention. And because you're interested, other people bond with you and, hey, you've made a sale. I used to talk to potential clients who would say, "It's really good that you've come out because you sound like you're genuinely interested in this business whereas the other three guys were just wondering what fee they could get out of me."That's why I would win business 'cause I was interested in them as people and I made friends and I asked interesting questions. And I wasn't just there kicking the tires and then hoping I can sign someone up, you know?Henry: Yeah, yeah. That's the novel reader in you.Sarah: Yes.Henry: There will be lots of women in their 30s in City jobs or office jobs or accountancy jobs or whatever who feel the way you felt. Either they've got imposter syndrome or they secretly would rather just be reading Trollope or whatever. What's your advice to them? Difficult to give advice in general terms, but, you know.Sarah: Yeah. My advice is you will... The thing you will do best is the thing that makes you happiest. So if you go on trying to push yourself into being something that you see other people being and it's not really making you happy, you won't be very successful at it anyway. So it is worth taking a risk and thinking is there something out there I could do, which I'm... Owning a flower shop or whatever, that would make me happier. If I had stayed on in corporate finance, if I had gone into private equity, I could have made millions and millions, but I don't think I'd have been any happier. In fact, I think I'd have been a lot less happy than I am sitting here on a tiny, little book advance doing exactly what I wanted to do. I don't regret any of that because I wouldn't have enjoyed it. I wouldn't have liked doing it.I mean, the other thing is... The other thing I would say to all women who are in my position is don't beat yourself up all the time that you're not being the perfect mother or the perfect executive because you're gonna live with that guilt forever and you're never gonna know what you could have done better. If you had given up, maybe you'd have been a terrible mother at home. If you'd found the children out or never had them, maybe your career wouldn't have taken off. You're never going to know. So don't beat yourself up with that, just do the best you can and cut corners wherever you can and get help. And don't be afraid to say, "I need help with this" and "I can't come tonight 'cause I've got to go to a parents evening." Just... The more women say that we need help with this and don't try and pretend that it's easy. It's not easy. It's never gonna be easy to do both. I found it very hard.Henry: So you are now navigating the publishing world. Doing book research, being a writer. What things did you learn from your earlier career in all its guises whether it's like small techniques and skills or sort of big life lessons or whatever, but what things did you learn from that earlier career that you're sort of using now?Sarah: I certainly learned... I mean, I certainly picked up a lot of small skills along the way. I am a very fast reader, I'm a summariser and a lot of my job in corporate finance was writing good, crisp, prose because you wrote prospectus because you wrote... So I think all of that has helped. I think I'm a better writer and a better researcher because I did it professionally for 20 years, but we called it corporate finance. I mean, there was a lot of cross over. In terms of the bigger stuff, what have I learned? I've learned to cope with worry and stress. I mean, if you wake up in the middle of the night and stuff's going around in your head, get up, have a cup of tea and write it all down. Don't lie in bed worrying that you're not going back to sleep. You just have to learn to cope with stress.And I think the other thing I've learned and I try and get into my children's head all the time is to be more assertive just not to run away and hide. If you think something's wrong or you're not being treated properly, don't lose your temper, don't sulk and don't spend your whole life taking it out on your friends and your family. You have to address it at work. Nothing is more boring than the person who really ought to have handed in their notice and just spends their whole life moaning to their wife, their husband, their best friends about what their bloody job is. Don't do it. If you don't like what you're doing, you will become very boring and to everybody else. Change your job. Change your job.Henry: Yes. Yes. Having recently been that person, I can endorse that sentiment. Sarah: So we've all done that. We've all spent time listening to someone who's thinking, why don't they just stop doing this job if it's making them so unhappy? And I know that's a... I know particularly the current climate that's easier said than done, but don't, life's very short really.Henry: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's right. And what would the Alexander McMillan advice be? Could we have a little book of the wisdom of Alexander McMillan?Sarah: I think he's going... I mean, I am absolutely immersed in his life in the 1860s. And it is that the decade of the 1860s is the absolute pivotal decade for the business. It completely transforms. It looks utterly different in 1870 than it did in 1860. In 1871, his first wife dies and he rapidly remarries a much younger woman. And I think he starts going abroad on holidays. And I think his life changes. I think the 1870s Alexander is gonna... Had a younger woman saying to him, you're killing yourself. It's not worth it. You've got sons coming into the business, let George take the strain. We're going to France for a month Alexander and you are coming too. I mean, I think his life is gonna change in the 1870s.Ask me again when I know what he's writing to people in the '70s. Because in the '60s, he's saying, get your head down. Really got to work. Put start another book. Don't let the grass grow on your feet. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. He's at it all the time. I think he's gonna have a very different attitude in 10 years' time.Henry: A lot of writers seem to have a decade or a 15 year period where they kind of really do most of their great work. If that seems to be like that for him, but in a business sense, then you're saying the '60s that was his time and then it cooled off.Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And well after... But with a publishing house in particular, I think once you built up a critical mass, it's not so difficult to run because good authors are going come to you and you can be selective and you can take a Thomas Hardy manuscript and you can take a Kipling manuscript and a Henrig. They're going to come to you. Whereas in the 1860s, he's really scrabbling around. What's going to be good? And he creates things like the Golden Treasury Series or the Clarendon Press textbooks with Oxford University. He's creating things because he hasn't got Thomas Hardy or Henry James. He's got Charles Kingsley, who's becoming increasingly racist and unpleasant. By the 1870s, the business is... There's a magazine that comes out every month. It has regular subscriptions.And now Nature is going to come out every month and be written for by her Huxley. And he's got, he can choose who he publishes. So I think by the 1870s, the business runs much better even when he is on holiday. Whereas in the 1860s, he just needs to be there every day and he needs to read every manuscript and he needs to look at every proof and he's changing the colour of the bindings. He's in all over it and I think it would've killed him and it killed his wife possibly. And I think in the 1870s, it's easier for him to step back. And then he starts having a son and a nephew in the business. And then he has three nephews in the business, I mean, it just moves on. And he's lucky that the next generation of the one, two, three, five boys, three of them stay in the business and are still in the business in their 70s and 80s. And they all die within a couple of months of each other in 1936, bang, bang, bang. But they were all there, three brothers. So he's lucky in that there is at least two generations of McMillan that know how to run a publishing company. Not everyone gets that. Do they? Some people can't even get to some...Talent SpottingHenry: What did you learn about talent spotting when you were at Arthur Andersen?Sarah: That one of the best things you can have in a business career is instinct about people, that I could always tell within five minutes of an interview starting whether I ought to hire this person or not. It's a bit like house hunting, it all looks lovely on paper and then sometimes you get to the gate and you think I'm not even going to look at this house. [laughter] I can't imagine living in this house, why have I come? And I think I had really good instinct for people spotting and I was good at bringing people on particularly women. I mean, there were a couple of women around who say nice things to me about I learned a lot from you, Sarah.Henry: What were the signals? The good and the bad signals? What set your instincts off?Sarah: Genuine intelligence, not just... A spark in the eye literally and a bit of a sense of humour. So not just they've learned it all by wrote. I wasn't ever interested in the people who told me they'd been reading the Financial Times since they were 12. I was interested in someone who'd tell me something interesting they'd seen it on the back of a lorry coming into the interview. That was a better sign for me of genuine interest. And I always used to say when I was teaching other people to interview and hire as well, if you don't think...If this new person is going start on Monday morning, am I going to really look forward to seeing them? Or am I thinking that, I hope this is gonna be alright? Then you've already made your decision, you want that person to be someone you wanna work with on a Monday morning when it's pouring with rain and you've got to hangover you. So pick people who you are gonna get on with and who are as bright as you are or brighter if you can find them.Henry: Let's say I was going to plant you into the offices of some big consultancy, PwC or EY or someone, and your job is to talent spot some potential late bloomers. They don't have to want to write a book or be victorious, they just have to be some other Sarahs, who have this in them, but they're not talking about it, and we don't know what it is, how are you going to go about looking for these people, and when will your instinct sort of prick up and say, "Yeah, I'm gonna get to know her, she seems like there's something in the background there."Sarah: I think it's the... You're gonna see that person thinking outside the box. So in a room of people where everyone said something around the table, they've said the most interesting thing that wasn't what anyone else said. And it might have been a small point that they've made, but it was just different their brains weren't working, they weren't doing groups speak. Because they may not have been listening to the group speak and they might though it was very dull, but this was the thing that had been interesting them about this problem. And I know that's the thing. I also think I would be looking for the person who had done something interesting at the weekend, or was going to theatre that night or just the show that the brain was not completely sucked into the job, that in fact, they were probably more looking like hoping they were gonna get to the national theatre that night, than worrying about anything else that was going on. It's that feeling that you have a life outside work. And for lots of people, there is no life outside work.And I feel so sorry for them when they give up because, what are they gonna do with their lives? Whereas I always knew that there were 50 things. If I'd have to stop working tomorrow, I wouldn't have been bored for a second, there are 50 things I wanted to do, and I always feel sorry for people to say, "Oh, I don't know what I'd do if I didn't have this job." Really? You know.But I think, how do you spot them when that's not coming out? I think you are gonna spot them because they are gonna say something that's a different take from everyone else.Henry: Yeah, no, that's interesting, if you're not going to sort of have the chance to see them pull a book of poetry out of the briefcase or whatever, you can... You're saying there are signals in the meeting. Comes back to divergence almost, they're not...Sarah: It does.Henry: How many people do you think you met like that in your career? I tell you why I'm asking, I feel like we have no idea how many late bloomers there could be out there. But my suspicion is there a lot of people who could be in the right circumstances, given the right conditions or whatever, but we just don't know.Sarah: No, I don't know. I don't think many. I can't think of people. There were people who did surprisingly well after I'd worked with them, went off and did other business things and have done very well, and I think... Well, I wonder what they might do next.Henry: Were they the ones saying the out of the box stuff in the meeting or are there other indicators of those?Sarah: There's a girl in particular, I'm thinking about, who worked for me and Leeds who could have gone down a very boring banking corporate route. Actually, she's now running a really interesting small business, and she always... She used to get teased and laughed at because she would sometimes say such off the wall things, used to make a look a bit stupid sometimes, but I always used to be interested in what she'd said, 'cause there was something going on there. So I would think about her. I'm trying to think. So later life, when I've been around NHS boards, there are people there who I think could easily spring off and do something completely different, 'cause working for the NHS is so completely absorbing of your life, your energy and your compassion, but some of them are very interesting people, they wouldn't be doing that job otherwise.Best Victorian Novel?Henry: Finally give us a recommendation for one really good Victorian novel that we might not have read.Sarah: Okay, I'm going to say a part from I've already told you that I love The Way We Live Now, and I love Middlemarch, which I think are the two absolute classic novels. But the one that I read last year, which I'd never heard of and loved, it's by Mrs. Oliphant, and it's called Hester, and it was written, I think in the 1880s, and it's set in a small town, but it's about a woman who saves the Family Bank from going bankrupt. Her father has over extended the bank and run off, and a bit like, It's a Wonderful Life, there's going to be a run on the bank, but Hester goes into the office, it's a small town, and the fact that she's there, she saves the bank and effectively runs it, and then the book starts as the next generation are coming through what's gonna happen. And will she have to do it again? It's a really good book.Henry: Yeah, that sounds a great.Sarah: Hester by Mrs. Oliphant.Henry: I'm going to read that. Well, Sarah, thank you very much.Sarah: Thank you, Henry. It's been very enjoyable.Thanks for reading. If you're enjoying The Common Reader, let your interesting friends know what you think. Or leave a comment at the bottom.If you don't subscribe to The Common Reader, but you enjoy reading whatever's interesting, whenever it was written, sign up now. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.commonreader.co.uk

Today I'm talking to Jürgen Strauss about his success in building a community with humane podcasting and networking circles. Jürgen is a transformational marketing strategist, helping businesses build visibility, professional authority and connection with their dream clients. He is passionate about helping businesses achieve exceptional results through innovation and modern human-centred marketing. Jurgen believes marketing seems to have somewhat lost its way in business, becoming less about nurturing relationships and more about chasing the elusive dollar and a bigger slice of the pie. His vision and philosophy is simple - make your marketing human again and make it about creating your client's story, leading them on their exceptional journey with you as their guide. And he has created his unique 12 Step Transformational Marketing Blueprint as a simple, step-by-step way to do exactly that. As a podcast host himself, Jurgen has held meaningful conversations with hundreds of outstanding entrepreneurs from all around the world gaining insight into what makes them ‘tick', what ‘lights them up', why they do what they do and what inspiration and value they can add to the rest of the world. On a more personal note, Jurgen is happily married with two outstanding adult children of whom he is very proud. Jurgen is an avid photographer, and enjoys public speaking, and cycling – a passion he shares with both his “children”. In this episode, you'll learn why income follows impact and... The flywheel system behind Jürgen's podcasting success (500 episodes) Tools and tech he uses How Jürgen develops human relationships with his guests The return on investment of his podcast How he created a community out of his podcast guests he calls networking circles to have deeper conversations And so much more Jürgen's Resources   Jürgen's Website Jürgen's Free Audio Course: InnovaBuzz Podcasting Flywheel Connect with Jürgen on: Instagram Twitter Facebook YouTube LinkedIn   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, you're again. I'm so glad that we get another chance to talk to each other. I was on your podcast recently and now I have you here. I'm so delighted to have you on the humane marketing podcast.  Jürgen: Yeah, it's great to be here. I know. Glad that we're talking again. Sarah.  Sarah: Wonderful. Our topic for today is podcasting as well as kind of a smaller topic after networking circles. But let's start with podcasting because that's really kind of become a big area of expertise for you. Your. Celebrating soon as of this recording are probably when it goes live, you have already celebrated 500 episodes of your own podcasts. So, wow. Congratulations. 500 episodes. That's quite the milestone. When did you start and tell us a little bit about this journey of recording 500 [00:01:00] episodes.  Jürgen: Yeah, it's interesting. When I wrap up my. Show with a guest. And I let them know when we're going to publish in which episode number. And now each time I say, you know, it's episode 490 something. I think we're recording at the moment and are, I always have to hesitate there and think, wow, you know, we've come a long way. So we start. Back in August of 2014. So we've been going for over seven years. Wow. And it started off a mentor of mine, suggested start a podcast as a marketing and positioning exercise. And I'd always been a fan of audio. Books and even way back when I was still on cassette types and CDs and, and I used to travel a lot and I used to have to commute a lot when I was in my corporate roles. And I would [00:02:00] listen in all the. Travel times or waiting at airports and so on. I would listen to audio books and I found that a really great way to absorb a lot of material, much easier and less tiring for me personally, then reading the physical book. When podcasts started, I'd I'd really just dove into the medium, but I always imagined it as something that was, you know, a professional radio studio. You needed all this expensive setup to do a podcast. And. This mentor of mine, he was actually running his own podcast. And he had actually, because he's, his background was in video production. So he did have a proper studio. But he said, no, no, come and have a look. What I've set up. I'll show you. You actually need as a minimum. And when he showed me that, I thought, oh, I can do all that. And I'm a techno geek from way back. So I was sort of excited to get into that. And I used to do [00:03:00] home recordings of my kids playing music onto tape recorders and so on. So I thought, you know, this is really just a digital version of that. So I've got stuff. And immediately reached out to all the people that in my corporate career, all around the world, I had these really good relationships with, but in my small business, no longer had a professional reason to connect with them. With the podcast I had this ready-made. List of guests immediately and that's how it kicked off. And then it just became this flywheel that was almost impossible to, well, it was impossible to stop when people introduced me to others that I should talk to on the podcast. And over time, it evolved into this medium where I had a. One hour masterclass, sometimes one hour, sometimes 45 minutes. Recently this week we had two episodes where we got quite carried away and went for an hour and a half, but [00:04:00] a master class from an expert in their field that I get the privilege to learn from. And then of course, I get to share that with my audience. So it's kind of a win for everybody, right? So that's been the journey. And as I said before, I knew it. I was. At episode 400 and whatever, 490 something we're recording now. And soon we'll have episode 500 and going forward and I'm still enjoying it. You know, we've been consistent over that time, started off with one episode per week. We went to two episodes per week. We. A little while we did three episodes per week because we had so many recordings backed up that guests were waiting six months to have their episode published. And I thought that was a bit too long to let them wait. So we caught up a little bit and, and balanced bringing people on to the recording session and publishing the [00:05:00] episodes. And, and yeah, here we are at nearly at episode five.  Sarah: That's amazing. Yeah. It's just, wow. What a journey. There's so much in what you just shared that I want to dig deeper into. And you started with, you know, kind of the overwhelm of, you know, not knowing how this is going to work out and what kind of tools do you need? I think that's often what we hear for someone who. Podcasting for the first time. So we'll go get into the tools and the tech and all that that we need. What I want to start with is, is what you then shared a little bit, but I want to go deeper into that. Like, what has this podcast done for you? I would say on a business level, And on a personal level, I can tell that you're clearly passionate about it. So it's probably part heart project. But at the same time, you wouldn't be doing it if it was just for your own pleasure. So tell us a little bit more [00:06:00] about what this podcast has done for you. Jürgen: Yeah, well, Probably after about the first 30 or so episodes that this was an amazing networking too, for me to connect me with people all around the world. And as I say, experts in their field, but that were giving me their time, their insights into their area of expertise. As a result, I was able to learn a lot of things that I could bring into my business or. Connect with people that were experts that could help me do something in their business. So often I would, if I needed a particular service that a guest of mine had an, I developed a good relationship with them, I would turn to that guest for that particular service. And also some of my guests have become clients because. We've built that relationship and they've said, Hey, we need [00:07:00] your help in doing something that, that you're good at. So that was kind of a very immediate benefit, but for the longer term now, and I know you want to talk about the networking events and, and things that I've also started doing this. These guests on my podcast have kind of become a community. And I know I can reach out to most of them and get a very quick response to an answer. If I, if I do a question, if I ask questions and I'll get a very quick answer and, you know, insights or feedback on something, and also we've recently won, well, a few of the, a few of the guests we've done some work together in terms of a joint venture type opportunity. So. Lots of different areas where it's, it's benefited second degree. I like to say. So we've started off as podcast host and podcast guests. [00:08:00] That's built a relationship and we've taken that relationship further in the sense of, Hey, there's an opportunity to either work together directly as a client and, and provide. Relationship, or there's an opportunity to work together on a joint project. Or it's just a case of if I need some advice or also guests needing advice, reaching out to me, or I reaching out to them and asking for advice. So there's all of those things of not for me. Over the years. Of course, we've really fine tuned our entire system to produce the podcast from identifying guests, to making them feel comfortable when they come on the show to all the production, after the recording, to the promotion of the show and all of that, people have seen us do that and said, Hey, how do you [00:09:00] do all that? So. Got all these services now and helping other people with their podcasts in various.  Sarah: Okay. Wow. What, what strikes me as very different from your approach is that, you know, usually when you hear people talking about podcasting, it's all about growing your podcast and getting more and more listeners and getting more and more reach. Not once. Have you heard, have I heard you say the word? Listen. So, so it's like, almost like you're focusing I won't say more because you can chime in after, but you focusing a lot of attention on the guests, which probably most people don't do so much. At least I, I haven't seen it. Like I have not felt like, oh, I'm now part of a community whenever I've been guesting on a podcast. Not at all. I can think of it. Maybe a few examples where we [00:10:00] stay in touch. But, but it hasn't felt like, oh you know, you really matter? No, you're just like, you know, one of my guests and now move on to the next one. So I find that a really. Very different strategy and the very humane strategies that it's not, you know, just like, like a factory. Okay. Next guest, next guest, next guest. So that's interesting, but do tell us also kind of about you know, your listeners, w what has developed out of the people listening to, to your pod?  Jürgen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the listeners, I mean the listeners first and foremost why we do the podcast. So, and, and we're very clear, right? From the get, go on, who are the ideal, who are our dream audience. And, and when we work with other people to launch podcasts, that's really where we start. We actually start with themselves with the podcast host and, and their business and why they're doing it and what they hope to get out of it. And then [00:11:00] the listeners for me, Then the next level of course, is the guests, because I say that I want to, I want everybody to have an awesome experience. I know if I do the right preparation and come with the right mindset, that I will have an awesome experience, speaking to somebody like you on your area of expertise. My guests to also have an awesome experience. And if we together have an awesome experience, then it becomes an awesome experience for my listener. I, I'm also very protective of my listeners in that I don't take everyone who like we get lots of pitches now for guests in the early days. Of course, I was very active in bringing guests on board. I still actively bring guests on board. However, The balance now is probably 50 50. So 50% of the guests I've been introduced to, and I invite them to the show, the other 50% pitch me and asked to be on the show. [00:12:00] And for those that send me a request to come on the show, I very carefully filter them. Are they a match for my audience? Are they a match for the kind of topic areas? Cover, which is  Sarah: probably sorry to interrupt. It's probably the same amount of work to kind of filter them as to invite your own guests. I often find because the pitches, quite frankly, there's exceptions. A lot of the pitches are just kind of like random. And so you have to actually do the work and figure out  Jürgen: well yours, your certainly stood out yours was an exceptional one that immediately got my attention and respond for that. Well, no, that's because that's the style I pitched to go on podcasts as well. And that's the style of pitch that I do. It's a personal reach out and I get on video. I show them. What they can expect the. [00:13:00] W I actually have a standard response for people who pitch me and, and it's a templated response, so I'm very anti template, but this is a templated response, but my templates are very special. I think And, and it allows me. So if I get a pitch, I immediately it's like hitting the tennis ball back into the other side of the court, over the net. And so the other person then has to do some more work to convince me that they're a good fit. So the templated responses, thanks for your interest in coming on to our show and we're being much more selective. Because we really want to protect our, our audience and make sure that the guest is a really good fit for the subjects we cover and for the audience. So I say that upfront, I then say, Can you please, the first step is please schedule a short call with me and I give them a calendar link. The second step is send in complete this intake form. So I have an intake form where they're giving me a lot of background [00:14:00] information and some of those questions are why are you a good fit? And have you listen to. An episode. And w w can you give me some feedback on an episode because I've it's kind of that evolved over time. I didn't use to ask that, but I've learned that not everybody listens to the show before they actually come on the show, which I thought was a given. So I kind of put them through that filter. And then I also send them some videos of that I recorded a little while ago about what excites me. Podcast pitch. So I talk about, you know, if somebody sends me a personalized video that gets me excited, I'm immediately attracted to that person. And I immediately will we'll then look at their background and probably reach back out to them to have a conversation. So I turn it around very quickly, like that, to all the pictures I get. And then. The next step of course is then if I have all the information back from the person and [00:15:00] we have that short call, then I can determine very quickly if they're a fit for my audience, if they're a fit for the show and the topics we cover. And also the short call has the benefit of we get to know one another. So when, when we then do get on the show itself, we've already had a conversation. We already know one another, we we've already started a bit of a life.  Sarah: Yeah, exactly. That that was a few people do it, but not everybody has that kind of first, you know, 15 minute calls. So that definitely helps you filter. Probably even though I can imagine for me as an introvert, it would be. Hard to say, you know, actually we're not a good fit. So I'm curious how, how do you do that? But yeah, that,  Jürgen: that was a bit of a challenge at first. If it's really obvious from. The pitch and if the person like some of the pitchers, and I'm sure you've seen these, if [00:16:00] people, when people pitch to you, they say, hi, I'm Juergen and I've done this. And I do that. And I'm an expert in these things. So it's all about me instead of the value that I might be able to bring to you. Audience or to your podcast. So if I get a pitch like that, I'm already very wary. And if then if the topic itself is, it's not really clear to me, it's a good fit. I usually just send back a polite decline. Oh,  Sarah: that's easy. Via email. But what I'm talking about is when you talk to them. Yeah, I  Jürgen: have been, and I made a mistake recently on something and I So who this was because the podcast has been published. And I think we actually made a pretty good show out of it, but it turns out it wasn't all that good of fit. I didn't think it was a good fit to start with, but I saw [00:17:00] some things that perhaps we could explore. So the person came on the short call and I actually said right at the beginning, I'm not sure. Your topic is a good fit for my audience in my show. And, but they'd pitched me. And so I said, but you know, maybe we can explore some areas. So then we came up with some areas to explore and are around sales and are around lessons that we could take from this business, which was way different to anything else I've had. But the lessons we could take from that into our area. I didn't, I probably then on the show, I probably didn't, wasn't strict enough to keep the person on track for the lessons. And I. Yeah, they took the opportunity to talk a lot more about their business. Then, then I really wanted because the business that they were doing was not really relevant to my audience as [00:18:00] yeah. That one, that one got that one got through, but I have said to people. Know, and I just say, look, this is not nothing personal. You're just not a fit. You know, I'm very clear on who my audience is. I'm very clear on the type of content that I want to put in front of them. I want to talk about. And that's just me, that's just what I've chosen to do. And I don't think this is going to work if, if it's a good conversation and you know, Connected with so many people that have podcasts. If I think of somebody who might be a good fit, I'll mention some podcasts to them, or I'll certainly point them to pod match and to match Mica the podcast services. And I say to them, Hey, if you're looking to get on other shows, This might be a suggestion. If I can think of one that that's a good fit. And if you'd like an introduction, I'm happy to make that. Or alternatively, go and look at these websites because [00:19:00] that's where podcasts are looking for guests actually hang out and you can pitch.  Sarah: Let's talk a little bit about those tools and the tech and the systems, all of that stuff, because with two or sometimes even three episodes per week, I'm sure you by now and. I say, you know, it wasn't always like that, but by now you have like the whole system, probably not completely automatized, but a lot of it is just kind of in the flow. Right. So you really just get to do what you love doing, which is the interviews. So tell us a little bit about, you know, the tools you use and the tech. I think you have a team as well. So tell us a bit  Jürgen: about that. Yeah. So I've got a team that edit the show. Do all the promotional material produce all the promotional material that do the invitations upfront from the guests. So I usually [00:20:00] connect with people that might be possible guests. And then if somebody pitches me, it usually comes into my email. So I'll respond to those. But I will also also copy in my, my team and my assistant, who does the scheduling and she will then sort the people she'll do some background research for me and invite the people and do all the scheduling with the scheduling. We've got a calendar system set up that once, once they're booked in, I think it's the same one you use. Once they booked in that will. The appointment in my calendar together with the link to the platform that we record on it, we'll put that into the guests calendar. It's set up to send out reminders a week before, a day before, and then an hour before, just  Sarah: want to chime in and say what I'm using is acuity scheduling. And I think that's what you're using. There's also [00:21:00] Calendly  Jürgen: that's right. This is quite a few of those around, so yeah. That's that's really important because it, it helps a lot in terms. So we actually, my assistant actually suggests three times, so we don't let them book directly at time because that got very out of hand. We did do that for a little while, but that got very out of hand. 'cause I, I found that often I'd do five recordings in a day and that's just too much. I can do three, but at the end of three, I'm I'm exhausted. It's as an introvert, that takes a lot of energy. The, yeah, so the booking, so for the pre. Get to know your calls that I allow the guests to book. So I've got in acuity, I've got times set up where I'll do those. Usually it's one or two days and specific time window that covers international [00:22:00] time zones as well. So that that's a bit of a challenge as well because of the time differences, but that's set up. So. Just send out that link and the guests can pull at their convenience and that just links to my calendar. So I can only see times when I'm free within those windows that I've set. So that's the calendar part. We, we use squad cast to record. Conversations, the squad cast allows you to record locally at each site, and that produces the highest quality audio. If you do that. And it also records and uploads dynamically so that if we get cut off because of an internet issue, for example, in the recording, The conversation up to that stage is recorded and it's uploaded. So we, that just means we have to edit together the various bits. If we reconnect, then I've got various follow-up [00:23:00] systems. So when I complete a recording, I will send an email. I'll personally send an email. Thank you. And the way I do that, now I have a template which basically. Outlines all the steps that happen from there. And in that template, I add a recorded message. That's personalized. And I added a I had the times when we're going to publish that episode, I will also. Send out some social media posts immediately after the episode saying, Hey, just had a fantastic conversation with Sarah. And we talked about these things. Look out for the episode to publish in December or whenever then after that my team then takes over the. Produce the, what I edit the audio they produce shownotes they produce social media posts from that I upload the completed or the [00:24:00] edited thing, or actually that prompt me to do an intro and outro recording. Then they edit it all together, upload that to the hosting platform and we use captivate if. And then yeah, then I schedule all the social media postings and they actually send an email on my behalf that tells the guests and also the people who introduced me to that guest that their episode is published. I follow up with a personalized video message usually about a week after the recording. Just. Kind of keep the relationship going. And then once the episode's published, I make sure that I'm on particularly LinkedIn and commenting on the posts and commenting on other people, interacting on those posts. So engaging in that conversation.  Sarah: Wow. That's really quite the production  Jürgen: and there's [00:25:00] probably a few bits and pieces that.  Sarah: How, how long would you say how much time do you personally spend on each episode?  Jürgen: Yeah, that's a great question. I actually looked at that recently because one of the jaw joint venture initiatives that I mentioned earlier, we were talking about sharing how you can get the time to produce a podcast down to. Two to four hours per episode. I think that's about what I personally spend. So I might I do listen to other podcasts that my guest has been on. And I typically do that while I'm doing something else. So it might be while I'm commuting, it might be while I'm out walking. So I don't necessarily count that time. As, as as work I do for that podcast, then I. Spend a little bit of time [00:26:00] looking at all the material that my team's put together, background research, and thinking about some of the topics that I want to cover. And that typically I'll spend about an hour doing that before the episode. And I've learnt over time that. I don't need in the early days, I would probably spend about four hours and I would script out the episode very carefully. So I'd have his question one. Okay. What, what might Sarah say to question one while she might say this? She might say that well, okay. If she says this, I'll go here. That'll be questioned too. She says this. That'll be questioned too. And I have have this very complex script and of course, most guests didn't say that, or I said something completely different and it threw me right off and then I'd come back in. Well, I've got to try and get this question in. And some of those episodes were really stilted because it was kind of like I was trying to get back on, on this track that I [00:27:00] laid out. And what I've learnt over the years. And I discovered this, even some of my very early episodes that I had a relationship with the person. Cause I knew them from my corporate days and I thought, wow, they have really good episodes because it was just a natural conversation between people that knew one another. And I thought that's what I've got to get to. Even with people that I don't know that well, and. I just take the approach of, okay, let's go five to seven bullet points of things that I touch on. And I was explaining this to a guest this week that we did the recording. I had actually eight bullet points for her and we didn't touch on one of them and we had an hour and a half conversation. So it's really about when I get onto that. As long as I'm, I've read up on the person, I've got some idea about their background. I've got some idea about their expertise. I then trust myself to have a conversation that's interesting and [00:28:00] I'll start off with some things. And depending on, I just have to listen really carefully. And depending on what I say, I will respond to what they say, and we could go off in any direction for me. It's just like, if I meet somebody. And at at some event, whatever it might be, I meet somebody there's no preparation goes into that. It might be a per chance meeting, but if we build a bit of a bond and we find some common interest that could certainly turn into a an hour conversation without any preparation. So that's kind of how I approach it. Now, as I say, I probably do about an hour preparation, not counting. Time. I listened to podcasts. Usually it's done while I'm doing something else. And then after the show, there might be another hour of things I do to wrap up. And then after that, you know, there's five minutes here and there to send a [00:29:00] video. Thank you. Later on. And we have, of course reminder system set up that reminds. Yeah. Now it might be time to touch base with Sarah again, or it's three months since you've connected or touch base with, with this particular guests or the. I just spent five minutes to maybe have a look at their LinkedIn, LinkedIn posts again, to see what what's happening in their world. Hmm.  Sarah: I love that. Follow-up as well. I think that that really feels like that's a big focus for you, the, the, the human relationship and, and I, I love that piece. So it's kind of like, yes, we use system. But we use the systems in order to really deepen the human relationships. Are you exactly that's?  Jürgen: Yeah, that's my whole philosophy around marketing is exactly that, that the systems are there to take care of the mundane and free up [00:30:00] people's time so that we can build those relationships. Yeah to any of those relationships. The  Sarah: other thing I would just also highlight is is that, you know, maybe for some listeners is they're like, oh my God, you know, this is two to four hours of time investment for each episode, plus you have a team. So. And, you know, how, how much time would that mean for, for just a single episode. So that's definitely something to think about. And yes, a podcast is a lot of work and and the other thing that you really show is it needs consistency. You know, how many podcasts do we see that start? Didn't have 20 episodes and then, and then they'd disappear. Could be a thing that you do for like a special event. I have a friend of mine who does a podcast right now because he's launching a book. And so from the get-go it's like, well, I do this about the book and it's part of that book launch. So, so [00:31:00] that's fine. But if you're starting a podcast and then, you know, just kind of. Wayne's out after 15 episodes then that's probably not the goal. Yeah. The other thing I wanted to go ahead.  Jürgen: Yeah. Sorry. It kinda comes back to what, what the purpose of the podcast is. And, and the book launch is a great example because I think a podcast is a really great way to enhance a book launch and. Help grow book sales, particularly at the beginning. And one of the beauties of that is that in terms of content, the book author already has the content, right. They've written the book, so you can reuse that content. So all the research that I do is about understanding. The guests that I'm bringing on, understanding their business, what drives them and getting to know them a little bit. So if you're doing a solo podcast, it's about preparing the content [00:32:00] that you're going to present. And if you've written a book, you've got the content you've done that work. So really the podcast itself is, is. The preparation part is already done in writing the book. So it's really more about, okay, how do I repurpose that? And then of course, afterwards, there's quite a bit of work in production and promotion of the podcast. The good news for that is, as you said, there's a lot of podcasts out there that kind of fade out after I think seven to 12 or 13 episodes is the pod fade period where people. Get frustrated because they're not getting immediate results from it. And also they starting to realize, Hey, this is actually quite a bit of work and yeah. And, but the good news is if you're, if podcasting is for you. And you really want to do it and you're consistent and you stay at it. You can build systems around it [00:33:00] to make it a lot easier over time and you will stand out because there's, I think there's about. Melian active podcasts around now at the moment, whereas there's 600 billion or more bloke blogs out there. And yet people put a lot of effort into writing blogs, thinking that a blog is going to. Mike them stand out in the world. Whereas if it's more, it's so  Sarah: different to hear you then to just read you all the time. Right. So that relationship really develops in a different way. Two things I want to say. And then I want to talk about those networking circles, but the first thing is I think w here we're a lot about giving ourselves permission as well to do it our way. So just because people listen to you who have, you know, in seven years have developed these systems and I are now really proficient at it. No reason to start out [00:34:00] small and say, well, you know, let me start with one episode every two weeks. I think what's, what's more important is the consistency than the actual quantity. So I want to give our listeners permission to say, Yeah, I just want to start building these relationships and maybe the purpose is not so much to get, you know, thousands of listeners, but to have a reason to people, to get people, to come to you and talk about a topic. So that's  Jürgen: absolutely, and permission. The most important thing is who, who is the audience you want to get in front of? Who's the audience that you have a message for that you can make a difference in their world. And if you get in front of that audience and then have that consistency that you mentioned, Sarah. And Mike, the expectation clear up front. So you could start off a podcast and say, this is going to be monthly. We're going to publish [00:35:00] on this particular day of every month. And here's what each episode will contain. So look out for it and tell people how they can follow the podcast or subscribe to it. And then. That's and then you just organically grow your audience. From there. You encourage people to leave reviews. You encourage people to share it with other like-minded people that it could help and consistency and adding value is, is the.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And also the letting go maybe of this idea to have the perfect show at the very beginning. So I had to smile when you said how you prepared your questions, because that's another thing that comes with experience to not make it sound like an interview. So, you know, kind of getting just into this flow like you now, I only have a couple of bullet points that I know that. Want to address. And then every now and then my eyes go down because I have [00:36:00] to look, oh, where are we heading that? But other than that, it really is just kind of this, this flow, but it wasn't always like that. I, you know, I have, we've made a,  Jürgen: we've made a real conscious decision to avoid the use of the word interview. I say, in fact, all the documentation, I think I've gotten rid of all of it. Although, you know, there were a few places where it kind of stayed. Was there, but I think we've gotten rid of it in all of our documentation, all of the emails that we send out in our sequences to remind people when they come on all of the platforms that we use, where, you know, the reminders go out through acuity and that everything has been changed to our conversation will be recorded. So I talk about it as a conversation and to me, Changing my mindset around this is just a conversation and yes, of course. I'm going to ask questions and yes, of course. I'm going to follow up questions with, oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about that or [00:37:00] that's interesting. Why do you say that? Those kinds of things, but it's not a scripted process. It's, it's a conversation.  Sarah: I think. One of the things that I noticed when I listened to podcasts that are probably in the beginning stages is when they say you know, next question, because actually that's not how you talk in a conversation. You don't say I'm going to ask you the next question. So maybe that's something. Kind of also take out of your vocabulary. You don't need to say, you know, let me ask, well, you can say, let me ask you this or something like that, but, but it doesn't have to be announced as the next question.  Jürgen: That's right. Well, there's a, there's a real funny one, which I know I've had. Quite a few times where people say, can I ask you a question? And my normal response is, well, you just did. [00:38:00]  Sarah: That's true. All right. Well, let's use these last five minutes to talk about the, the networking circles. So that's where you take the relationship even to a further level with your guests. Tell us about that.  Jürgen: Yeah, that's right. Well, well, my friend Qur'an ninja one. Runs these networking dinners. And so he gets together a group of like-minded people, a small group in a dinner setting and facilitates conversations that go deeper than the traditional networking event where. You meet somebody and, oh, hello, I'm Juergen. What do you do? And they say, what do you do? And you exchange business cards and then you get home and you throw out all the business cards into the rubbish bin. Cause you, cause none of, none of those people are the businesses that they're in. That's not what you're looking for right then and there. So it's kind of a bit of a waste of time. The, [00:39:00] his. Facilitated meetings were actually much deeper conversations about sort of meaningful things. So I took this when, when we when we were in the early stage of the, of the pandemic and there were lockdowns and everybody was getting on zoom and I thought, how can we make these zoom meetings more interesting? And it coincides. With the time when we had a episode, episode two 50, I think it might've been where I decided what I'm going to just bring people together on zoom and bring former guests together on zoom to celebrate 250 episodes. And I'll kind of run this event. Like those networking dinners that, that Qur'an runs and. So I did that and I used the zoom breakout rooms. So I kind of set the stage top people. We're going to have some deep and meaningful [00:40:00] conversations and it was a safe space. And if you're not comfortable going deep and. Be prepared to be vulnerable, then now's a good time to leave. And everybody got really excited and said, no, no, we're here. We're on board. So I start off with breakout rooms of two people. And I asked a simple question, like, what's got you excited right now. And people have two minutes to say that now, depending on how. Much detailed. I want to go into they'll share something. And then when they come back into the main room, I then asked for volunteers to share what they've learnt about others. And it kind of creates a real dynamic atmosphere and everybody feels part of this big you know, feels this connection. And then we. Send them off to a second breakout of one-to-one. And I usually ask a deeper question there of what's the [00:41:00] limit. Something like what's a limiting belief that you've ever come. And how did you overcome it? Is one that I've used. And so that requires people to get a little bit vulnerable and then. In, we did three more rounds and I put people in groups of three or four at that point and ask some more questions like that and then bring people back into the room. And I have music going when they come back into the room and I'm usually there dancing to the music. So it's kind of a fun party atmosphere. And I thought I did that because. At the trigger point was this celebration of over milestone podcast event. And then everybody had so much fun people and I encourage people then afterwards to say, okay, you've learned something about other people. Connect with one another outside this event and continue the conversations. And out of that people have gone on podcasts. Podcast [00:42:00] hosts have met potential guests. And so they've, those people have come on as a guest in their podcasts that I didn't know, one another beforehand. I know that there was. People that actually went on and did business with one and other out of that very first event. So it kind of starts off with having meaningful conversations between people. Trigger some relationships. And of course not everybody, not every conversation led to an ongoing relationship, but those where people felt, Hey, there's a connection here. They've went on to build that relationship. And I know some of the people that were on that early event are now running those events themselves as well. And I've been a participant in those events too. So it's a lot of fun being a participant as well, but it's kind of an interesting way. To use some of the technology that's available in zoom to help people just break through that, or what do you do and give us your business [00:43:00] card to actually get to know one another at a human. Sarah: Yeah, I love that so much. And, and I was just on a, on a conference recently last week where we had that kind of setup and the idea was to meet each other in small breakout rooms and not use our job titles to say, tell the other person who we are. And it was a really difficult concept for people to understand. And so I just put in the chat. Networking like we're human cause that's really, the idea is like, well, what if you didn't have a job? You know what, if you didn't have a job title, who are you as a human being? And so a lot of that we also do in the humane marketing circle. It's just like, you know, we show up as human beings, but it's true that we have. Kind of been brainwashed to these networking events. And so we always feel like we have to put on a show. And so I love what you're doing also [00:44:00] with this concept of bringing the guests together. I think that is just so, so smart. And, and, and, and I think it helps you. Kind of slow down the process, you know really just changing the focus on the relationships and not just, like I said before this factory of, of guests and one after the other. So. Beautiful. I, yeah. And, and I just received your email about the 500 networking invitation. So I can't wait. Yeah. I'm not  Jürgen: sure that's going to be a networking one. I haven't actually worked out exactly what we're going to do there, but the idea for that is that I have a conversation with a group of people on episode 500 and, and I've decided it's probably going to be. Three or four parts. So three or four episode, five hundreds because of the number of people that, that I probably want to [00:45:00] bring on. And I I just, I, I will need to plan how to run this with perhaps eight to 10 people together on a podcast. Yeah. Like a panel. And I, when I say. Do standard questions. I do actually have five questions that I ask every guest at the end of our conversation, or sort of as we wrap up the conversation, there's a, what I call the buzz, which is an innovation round. And there's five questions that I ask every guest. And I'm thinking of maybe taking a couple of those questions and going deeper with each guest in kind of a panel discussion.  Sarah: Wonderful. Can't wait. Well, we're getting to that part of the show here too. And, and, and I always ask myself kind of my guests, a personal question, but before that, I would love for you to tell people where they can find you and find out more about your work and your podcast and all of that. Good.  Jürgen: Yeah. [00:46:00] Well, if you go to my website, Nova biz.com dot a U R I N N O V a B I Z or Z for the American speaking people. The you'll find the podcast there as well as the other, the other information about our business and on the pages, you'll see a little. When normally is a chat bot, but it's actually me on video with a welcome message. And you can respond to me with your own video or an audio message, or just a normal text message. So the idea of that is it's not a chat bot robot. It's me inviting a conversation. So I'd love you to let me know that you heard me on Sara's podcast. What you liked about it and also any feedback? Yeah. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. [00:47:00] Like that invitation. Well, this has been delightful. Thank you so much for taking the time. My last question and this time, it is a question is what are you grateful for today, your again, or, or this week?  Jürgen: Well, there's lots of things that I'm grateful for them and I'm healthy. I've. We are coming out of the extended lockdowns here in Australia from COVID. So recently. I was able to visit my 93 year old father and celebrate his birthday, his 93rd birthday. And I hadn't seen him in person for six months. I was also able to visit my daughter in Melbourne. So you know, we we'd had locked downs previously. We couldn't go that far. So I was able to visit her and go out bike riding with her, which we love to do together. So I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for my wonderful wife here. And of course we were together all through the lockdown. So that was good. And yeah, and just all these wonderful [00:48:00] guests that I have on my podcast that, and all these connections and opportunities to come on. Other people's podcasts like this.  Sarah: Thank you so much. I love talking to you and we'll do it again, even without a podcast interview. Thank you so much. You're going to take care.  Jürgen: Thanks Sarah.

Today's conversation with Adam Kawalec on Income follows Impact fits under the P of Pricing of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Adam is a former top-level manager turned life & business coach, co-founder of a unique and internationally recognized personal trainer school, who has built a thriving business based on referrals only. With over 16 yrs of experience in change management, leadership and mental training Adam helps heart-centered coaches and consultants get paid doing what they love without having to sacrifice their life; work; or bank balance. Adam is also a founding member of the Humane Marketing Circle and I got to reference his work in the Selling Like We Are Human Book! Adam's favorite quote: "If you could only love enough, you would be the most powerful person in the world - Emmet Fox In this episode, you'll learn why income follows impact and... How can we move the pay line, give before we get? How do we avoid over-giving and burnout? Is money the only form of income? How else can we define success? What do we do with our ambition, our ego? Adam's Resources   Adam's Website For being a listener get access to the top 3 expert interviews from the Authentic Business & Marketing Summit hosted by Adam Connect with Adam on: Instagram Facebook YouTube LinkedIn   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] Hi, Adam, how are you today?  Adam: I am great. Thank you so much for, for having me here today.  Sarah: Yeah, I w we've been planning this for, we can say over a year, because it only has been over the span of a year, so I'm so excited to have you here with us today and talk about yeah. And intriguing topic. So you so graciously, let me share. Your concept of, you know, moving the pay line or you'll have to explain whether they are different concepts. This idea of Income follows impact or moving the pay line, whether they're the same or different [00:08:00] ones. But yeah, we do, we did share them, include them in the selling like we're human book. And so I'm just excited to expand on this concept a little bit. So maybe you start off by yeah. Telling our listeners. Maybe how you came up with this and, and then explaining the different ones, or if they're all the same, just going into details there.  Adam: Absolutely. Well, thank you. Well, so we, we, you and I, we decided to talk a little bit more about the income follows impact, which is just a really clever way I think, to kind of get people's attention. And we'll expand on that shortly and I, you know, for anyone who picked that up there is there is an exercise. There is a mind set thing that I often do, which I call move the pay line, which is. Which you graciously shared in your book. And I'd love to expand on that as well. And and th they, it goes hand in hand. It demonstrates how you actually deliver on the [00:09:00] promise of income follows impact. So if I, if I jump into it and start to kind of define. Impact means is, is really, if you listen to it, what we're saying is if you make an impact, if you make a big enough difference in someone's life and or business, there is a way for you to make a good living or you know, find some form of revenue at the end of that. And this really comes from the idea of, I think I picked this up from Seth Godin where this, like, people are only willing to pay for something they see as. Like, so they, they, they, they, you know, they need to see value. And throughout my career, working with, with clients and, you know, having conversations and sales conversations and enrollment calls and all of that, what I notice really makes the difference is to give people an experience versus explaining the concepts. So, for example, if, if I'm doing business coaching or if I'm doing something around life, coaching [00:10:00] me avoiding just to explain what it could do for them, me instead showing them what that could do for them always moves them closer to that decision of. Let's let's do this. Let's continue. And so through the work I did with my coach anchors Jane, at that point, we came up with that idea, that income follows impact. The more impactful you can be as a coach, the less you will struggle as a coach. Because a lot of times we spend, we spend time on creating content. We spend time in being in conversations, and we're talking about coaching. We're talking about. The outcome what's possible. And this applies to anyone. If you're a trainer healer consultant, we're talking about, about the things that we can create, Moses actually giving them some form of experience of that. So that's what I applied to my [00:11:00] business. It's what I try to help my clients see as well that wherever you can Well, let's not just say let's wherever you can, but, but rather say where you can try to give the experience before the concept trying to give content before the concept, like give them context because then they will actually know. So that's kind of the income follows impact. And to be honest, Anytime. I feel a bit anxious about my bank accounts or the growth of my business. I can, I can go back and I can self-reflect and I can say, well, how much of a difference are you making? How much of an impact are you making? Right. And to be honest, it actually always puts me in a more creative mode when I go like, Let's focus on impact here. Let's focus on making a difference versus right. Let's make more money. I, I just happen to believe, you know, be part of that group of people who are not necessarily driven by money. But impact, I mean, you, you talk about impact pioneers, [00:12:00] right? That's, that's definitely the, the, the tribe I subscribed to. And, and so, yeah, I think that's quick and easy explanation of income follows. Yeah,  Sarah: I love that. And what you just said, there's such a different energy to it. When you say, you know, when you're kind of in this scarcity thinking, feeling mode and you're like, well, Should I hustle more to, you know, get more clients and then that feels like more scarcity, or should I look at how can I make more impact? And that just kind of has this opening energy. And it feels like, wow, that is very, very different. So I love that. I love that. Obviously that. Another kind of marketing concept that comes to mind is, is this idea of the know like, and trust factor, right? So I think that plays into it because if we are just talking about [00:13:00] things, Well, how will people know, like, and trust us. And so by really experiencing you and what you can deliver that helps with that know like, and trust factor. Maybe. Maybe we could give some examples because in the typical marketing you know, path or funnel where we usually think of the typical e-book or the free audio download or things like that. So yes, that could be an option, I guess, to, you know, work with your impact or, or trust factor, but you are talking about experiences and, and. I think that an ebook would count as an experience of podcast may count as an experience, baby. But yeah. Tell me more of what you mean by experiences.  Adam: Mm, good. Yes. So I think you're right. [00:14:00] There are degrees to facilitating an experience and really what I mean when I'm saying experience. We want to go for trying to give an experience of what it looks like to work together. So now obviously an ebook can sort of do that. And I would even say if it's an ebook, you do want to make sure, I think my personal recommendation is make sure that it's about. What I mean by that is like, don't try to prop yourself up too much, like make, make your clients, your customers, the hero of that story, because it gives the, it gives the experience of working with you where it's like, you're going to put them in the center and you're going to focus on them so it can work because they can feel like, wow, he's, he's, he's really committed to my growth, our growth. Wow. She really sees the individual. That alone can shift things right away. And then obviously we can move up the ladder and we can go to podcasts, [00:15:00] which is probably even better because you get to listen to the you know, the, the tone of the boys the pacing, the expressions the warmth or the, you know, the depth to whatever we were able to convey. So that's another way Actually I just  Sarah: get in there and ask something because I was just listening to a podcast today and I made this reflection where I think the last. The less kind of, you know, bells and whistles a podcast has to me. So, you know, how we all kind of got used to the super intro with Barbara, like you hired this voice and it sounds like really, whoa, look at this show and here is Sarah athletic coach. So the less kind of professional, almost, maybe the word is it is. The more, I feel connected to the host. And I was wondering [00:16:00] about that because I, I kind of given myself permission over the years to do these muse episodes where it's just me talking and, you know, they're way easier for me to create. I just hit record and do some audio editing. You know, not cutting out any words, but just kind of improving the audio and, and then off, off I go. But it was a big struggle to think. What are people going to think? This is not as professional as all the other ones, but then today I noticed, you know, what I love does podcast host, but yet I feel so detached because I don't feel like I'm having a real experience with them. I just feel like. Talking to a huge audience. What do you think  Adam: about that? Well, I think you're really onto something here. And especially going back to what you represent with the humane marketing and humane selling, I think authenticity is, is what comes up for me, right. That [00:17:00] we want to have real authentic connections to the people we surround ourselves with. And it is part of what I actually think is. What I talk about when I talk about impact, because one of the, I think misunderstandings or myths possibly in our industry of, of being a helper is that we need to be gurus. We need to be put on pedestals and we need to be. Celebrities and you know, for anyone who can't see this, I'm smiling, as I'm saying it, there's a little bit of a, like, you know, a bit humor in this, of course there's nothing wrong with having a following or something like that. It's just I believe that the power in, and I'm going to refer to coaching we're helping the power of the helping happens through the relationship. Because I can give you all the best tools in the world. And if our relationship is off, most likely you're not going to receive them. Like you're not going to receive them the way I intended for them to be received. Because we're, we're having an [00:18:00] issue with how we're listening to each other, how we're connected. And if we start our relationship where you look at me and put me on a pedestal, meaning that you're looking at. At me a chance to solve we're already in an unbalanced relationship. If you're looking up at me, you might be afraid of making mistakes. You might be afraid of confessing that you didn't do your homework that you failed. And all of a sudden we could go as deep as we need to for your sake, because you're not being honest. So my faith. My celebrity status is actually damaging the relationship and therefore the potential of my clients right now. You also don't want to have them look down upon you, like, which is really weird if they did. But what I mean by that is we don't want to be, and this might be a touchy subject, but I'm going to go ahead and say, we don't want to overshare. We don't want to be over vulnerable [00:19:00] vulnerabilities are powerful. And I just think we, we want to be mindful around that. And what I mean then is we, we want to avoid role reversals where our clients, all of a sudden feel like they need to comfort. That creates a very weird dynamic. And yet I see this happen. I see this happening group programs. I see this happen in conversations where we overshare something that we are simply not in a, in a space to share yet. It's to rule now where we do want to be is really human to human. I leveled. If that's how you say it, right? Because at that point it's a more mutual, respectful human connection. And I think anything that we can to provide that kind of expensive. In an ebook, a podcast, a video, even in our emails, right? The more we do that, the, I think that's strong with the relationship [00:20:00] becomes and the better for, for the client in terms of the potential. So what that looks like is probably very individual based on who you are and what your brand is about. And as you said, perhaps it is about less bells and whistles and more connection. Sarah: Okay, thanks for exploring that side. Tangent. It's just, yeah, it kind of was brought up today. So I was like, oh, let me ask him that. So let's go back to the, the idea of yeah, we were talking about podcasts as being one of the things that we can offer. What would be some other experiences?  Adam: Well, another thing you brought up as an example in your book selling like we're human. You, you went on to explain a little bit about when I hosted my summits and the beginning of last year, where I, as far as I could, as much as I could, I was sending personal video messages to everyone who signed up [00:21:00] and it was a free event to sign up for. There were quite a few messages to go, go out. And I sent a video message where I would S you know, wave and say mentioned the name and say, I'm glad to have you here. I hope you find this interesting. And I used to add something personal based on that day. And, and, you know, the mood I was in I add some software to help me with arts. So that made it easier. Cause it might be a bit tricky to figure that out otherwise. And that was just something that I wanted to commit to as a way to already give people way before they even joined the, the the summit or way before they even start to reaching out to me, they are hearing my voice. They're seeing my body language. They're seeing my, my, my facial expressions. They're getting an experience. So that's yet another way. So again, give the experience a way before people even start working.  Sarah: Yeah. And they, they really feel, and I think they felt [00:22:00] those people who signed up for your summit, they felt heard and seen as, you know, participants of the summit. It's not just a, you know, here's a mass email that we all know by now. Okay. Yeah. He's not really talking to me personally. So having that personal touch it's of course. Yeah. It's, it's one of the ways to, to create impact. I, I couldn't agree with you.  Adam: I guess would it be helpful for me to expand on the move, the pay line concept? So you kind of give people an idea of what can they do for, for themselves. So the idea that I was fortunate enough to Shane in your book move the pay line is is this idea that. Well, w we had that analogy in the book. So let me start with that. So you picture yourself on a beach where you got your bare feet in, in, in the sand, and you have a stick in your hand and you, you draw a line from top to bottom towards your feet. So there's like two columns there, two [00:23:00] sides beyond that, that line in the sand and to the right of that. And the right column. You start writing things that you do with your clients. Once they sign up with you on state pay you and they start working with you in, in some form of container, you start adding, like I'll send out a, a workbooks. I'm sending out my, my ebook that I wrote two years ago. I give them. Access to my oh, summits that I used to run. We create strong agreements. I give them access to me via WhatsApp and of course we have conversations and all of that, just just a few examples right now, if we've listed an exhausted our resources or ideas to what we do, once someone becomes our class. We can then move on to the left side of that line, to the left column. And on this side, we're asking ourselves, what could I borrow from the right side onto [00:24:00] the left side, left side being, how can I give people an experience before they pay me? So now the line symbolizes a before and after payments. So all of a sudden. I can look at all the things I provide as a part of the experience of being a pain client. Other versions of that I can share already way before they become my clients. Maybe I could give access to parts of my summit. Maybe I can get out my e-book. Maybe there are ways for me to send messages that are really directed to that individual justice. I would, once they become my clients. And so all of a sudden we're moving the pay line in, in terms of. It was kind of moving it up into what we already offer as as for our pay paying client. Again, this way, it just helps. We don't have to come up with something new. We can just revise and review what we have and go, how can I put this out? How can I give [00:25:00] people access to this? How can I provide an experience before they have to pay?  Sarah: Yeah. As you know, in the selling like we're human book, I'm calling the signposts. That that's what a signpost is to me is this idea of, you know, gently leading your ideal client along the path to maybe eventually end up in your serene garden, where you do have a sales conversation, but in the meantime, you give them all these benches where they can. And they can sit down and, and yeah. Kind of you know, listen to your podcast or to your summit and whatever, not you're sharing with them. And what I like also, what you said is. That it doesn't have to be a, you know, something new, a new, a whole course that you're creating or, you know, how we get into, like, there's a lot of talk about funnels and how we come up. People come up with these really complicated funnels and [00:26:00] it doesn't have to be complicated. It can really just be, well, what am I already doing? And pull some things to the other side. So I love this concept of just saying. Well, what. Do I do already that, you know, doesn't cost me anything, obviously we're not wanting you to, you know, necessarily spend, you know, free coaching or, or any of that. That's up to you if you decide to do that. But, but that's not the idea here. It's like, what do I have already that I can give for free and help with that, you know, guidance towards the serene garden. Yeah. I love that.  Adam: If I can expand just quickly on this. This is actually something that was really is really current for me. And I've, I've been fortunate enough now to be in really strong conversations around this. I have noticed, and it's something that I've taken for granted for quite some time. And I've noticed that [00:27:00] asking questions. Is is definitely the way. I mean, especially in my case, I'm a coach. So asking questions is kind of what I do. So. When I slow things down and now we're talking about people who are reaching out or coming in by email or WhatsApp, there's an introduction being made and I'm connected with someone. Normally the typical thing that perhaps I would do or anyone else would do is just because that person came in. We know there's an interest. We say, fantastic. Here's my Calendly link or here's my Yeah. Any, any calendar link that we use to schedule something or something exactly. Sign up. Hey, and let's get on a call, right? That's a typical thing. Cause we're really quick on it. If we, first of all, I think pre-qualifying can be useful. And especially because this is the side I'm seeing right now, the really cool thing is because I've been really busy. So I've been having to pre-qualify people I've been having to extend some of them [00:28:00] time I spend with people. And so I've been asking more questions and the really cool thing happened just a couple of weeks ago, where someone came into my sphere and. I started asking questions and I kept asking questions and I had her come up with, well, it seem deeper and deeper. And as like, even the first message I sent her, she was like, oh my God, those are great questions. And this is also a coach. So I found that really humbling that she felt like, oh, those were really good questions. And we kept going the day after. I receive randomly from my website, someone going through my application form to sign up for a free conversation with me. They went through, they scheduled a conversation with me and usually I have an idea of who's coming in and who's not. So this was a random person. I couldn't recognize the name. And we were starting having a conversation because of the email coming in. And she, she told [00:29:00] me, well, I came in because of. You're in conversation with another woman and she recommended me to reach out to you and that's the woman I'm texting with. So she's already having an experience of the possibility that's on offer here so much so that she's willing to even say to someone she knows, you know what? You produce, probably have a look at his website. She'd probably look into this guy and that that woman then goes through and kind of comes out the other side of. In my calendar right now, I'm sharing that just to say, kind of highlight the power of again, giving the experience. So even before I'm accepting anyone before we get on a call before those money exchanged, she's experiencing the possibility of work together through the questions through me, having her see. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah, that is powerful. And instead of, you know, maybe increasing the filters and saying, no, let me [00:30:00] block you out. We can just engage in the questions. And from there still then decide, you know, is this a good fit or not yet?  Adam: And you mentioned this thing that it doesn't have to cost a lot. And I just want to say that, that part of what I tend to do is I send other people's resources. I've sent your book to people. I've made sure that they listen to episodes of your podcast. I have a list. I got a long list. I call the ultimate resource list. Right. And I just keep adding things there. If I watch a really good YouTube video, I'll add it to that. Now we can send other people's results. And we can say, Hey, if you enjoy that, we should get on a call and explore that. Right? So already asking questions, sending them useful resources, having them do some homework, even before they start working with us, having them experience transformations way before they stopped paying us is a beautiful way to introduce the idea of the experience rather than the concept.[00:31:00]  And I'm not going to say any more because clearly I can talk about this forever, but it's, I hope we're giving some ideas to the, the audience, the listeners on how they can start doing pieces of this themselves.  Sarah: Yeah, yeah, no, I liked that a lot. This, this idea of experience versus I guess transaction, I, the word that comes up, so yeah. Yeah. I want to steer you in another direction. I think a lot of the listeners they are. And you notice you're in the circle, we're you know, heart-centered entrepreneurs where impact pioneers. So we are, you don't need to tell us, you need to give before you get usually that's, you know, we're good at that. And so I think that is a great advantage. And it can also get to the point where it becomes a disadvantage or it becomes a challenge. I know I share about the, my over-giving [00:32:00] burnout in the marketing, like where human book. And I know that you had kind of have a, an over giving or, or just kind of a burnout moment as well in. Previous career. So maybe tell us about the, that burnout story and what it was linked to you. And then. Yeah, how do we, how do we deal with that? How do we still give, and yet also make sure that we are, you know, safe and healthy and happy.  Adam: Yeah. Th this is an important topic, especially for us. You said heart centered entrepreneurs. So my own personal experience and I I've, I've had it several times. Like it's, it's, you know, I think it's, to me, it was just, it's a tendency, it's a strength. And it's also one of my. Greatest. Potentials. So in, in my corporate career I had a burnout because I've just continuously saying if only I have X, then things will be better. And I kept saying that it [00:33:00] was like the carrot on a stick just dangling in front of me. And I was continuously saying like, I'll just get to that point. Then everything will be fine. I got to that point, but something else was now not, not good. And I continued and I continued and finally, I just couldn't get out of bed. I had clearly. Went way beyond my boundaries. So that was part of what I needed to understand. And I did come up with an idea after that w which has been really helpful in, in, in my coaching and my personal life as well. And it is this to kind of fill your own cup first. And, and I, I call this energy management. So. I have this idea that, and we all know this, like recharging our batteries and filling our own cup is often a really powerful way to do, especially for helpers because we're, we're far more effective when our cups are full or our batteries are full. The challenge though, is that we tend to feel that. And then we start giving again and, you know, because we're giving the [00:34:00] levels decrease and now we're down to 30, 30%. And all of a sudden we only have a maximum capacity of 30 to give. Whereas if I would have been back on hundreds, I could have given much, much more. So my personal insights, my, my solution to that became to fill my cup up and keep. Because it's the overflow that I then share freely. And so for me, it was about figuring out what fills my cup. And once I figured that out, make sure that it never gets turned off. So I start my day. I make sure that parts of my agenda is to fill my cup and keep it full because then if I move into a space of service, there's no depletion because it's an ever flowing. Sarah: Yeah, I love that picture. It's just like the minute it's empty, it's filling again. And then you share whatever is, you know, [00:35:00] dripping over and it has a lot to do with, you know, abundance. Like that's what abundance is, is that that's when you. Can really share from this energy of abundance, because the minute you feel like, oh, there's less. And you know, I'm not feeling great and there's not enough for me. Well, guess what? You're not in abundance anymore. You're now in scarcity. And so that's also where this stressed and comes from. The other term. You mentioned boundaries. So I think that's an important part of it, right? Like we're not, we're not inviting you to just give without limits. Yes. You know, first of all yeah. Have your cup always full, but even then there's boundaries. Like if someone asks you, do you work for free? Well, no, of course not. You know, there, there are boundaries that you need to put in place. Do you work on the [00:36:00] weekend? No. If, if, if you don't want to work on the weekends, then that's a big, no. So there is a yeah, a big importance on, on boundaries and, and, and working on those and the I'll let you in, in a second, the other term I wanted to throw at you was ambition. So talk to us about boundaries and and then also ambition.  Adam: Perfect. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to make that connection. So it's W with the, with the boundaries. The ID I like to talk about around that is really when it comes to our us being heart-centered entrepreneurs helpers, we want to understand that there is a distinction here. There is being passionate about what you do, and also being a pro. And in, in early days when I started things, I was just passionate. I was, I was on a mission. I had a purpose and I was giving again. I told you I've [00:37:00] burned out several times, not just at my corporate career, but also doing what I'm doing today. So I've, I've, I've had to learn that and relearn that. And part of that is when things shifted for me, I was working with a coach who helped me see. There is a distinction by turning into a pro. One can, one can argue. It's, it's a question about the social self and the professional self. The social self wants to be liked and is afraid of saying no, we're putting boundaries in the professional self is the side that says, well, actually, I realize when I'm depleted, I'm doing a far less less impactful work than I otherwise could. So because of that, I limit the number of calls, the number of hours I work per week, so that I can guarantee to people to always show up on our high frequency, for example. Right. So that, so that's the distinction I'm trying to allow people to see is really. [00:38:00] Turn pro like stop treating this as a business, not as a hobby, not as just a passion project. I mean, if, if that's what you want, of course, to turn this into a business. And if we do, we are professionals be proud of that. And, and honor that, and it does tie into this idea of ambition and defining your success. But. If we don't define what success looks like to us, it is easy to overdo it. It is easy to think. Well, five clients are pro is probably better than, than. So let's go for fine. Well, that's the whole thing, right? Is it really, to you for you, maybe for clients is perfect for you because it allows you to have that time, that space to recharge and always make sure that you're coming from a place of full, maybe gives you time to grow, learn and stay on top of things and so on and so on. So you want to take charge of that.[00:39:00]  Ambition is a tricky thing. Like we could probably have a whole conversation about this, because that was my key, key learning. When I shifted away from, from where I was there is like in human beings, we have this amazing ability to be ambitious. It is, it is an amazing ability because you don't see this everywhere else. Like. If you look at animals, for example, they're not very ambitious. They're very concerned about the present moments, surviving humans, though. We put away money today so that we possibly can use that when we retire. That's very ambitious. That's very how do you say that for forward thinking? Yeah. And at the same time, if all you have is ambition, you will struggle with actually living in the present moment. And to be honest, life really happens only in the present moment. So we're missing out on a big piece of, of life. So [00:40:00] the opposite of ambition is enthusiasm, according to me. So we, it's one thing to use. And we also want to balance that with enthusiasm, meaning the excite excitement we feel in the present moment. Right? And so again, what can help us not to go to fall? Which is a typical thing. When we measure money, we measure followers. We measure tangible metrics is that 10 is good. 11 is good. 15 is even better. And then we just like, kind of start rolling because the ambition takes over. That's where we can start going. What's my upper lip. What's the limit that I would be happy to reach without necessarily sacrificing or crossing my boundaries, sacrificing my boundaries so that I can make sure to come from a place of abundance. First does this tidy all together, Sarah? [00:41:00] Yeah.  Sarah: No, it's so good. I'm so glad you, you mentioned this upper limit. I think it's. We are so. Brainwashed to always think about growth and more growth and more growth that, you know, the conversation of what if there was an upper limit. And what if, and obviously we're talking about money here as well. Right? What if I reached that upper limit and then I can really just. Do the things that fill my cup and then if it would still brings me joy then yeah. Maybe, maybe I can do some more because obviously we've also all chosen work that we love doing, but that's also where the danger is. I think, in, in our work, I mean, yes, it's great that we get to work and love it. And at the same time you can fall so much in love with your work. That in the end, you're still working all the time. Me now. And then [00:42:00] yeah, I think it's, it can be addictive. So, so I think it's a, it's worth having a conversation. You know, especially if you have a partner and loved ones and you're like, well, actually, yeah, I do love my work, but you know, how do they fit into the equation as well? So, So yeah, so good to have this and yeah. Enthusiasm. Isn't, that is a great word and curiosity as well. You know, where, where it's like, well, yeah, I have this ambition, but I have all this curiosity for other things that I want to do that maybe don't have to do with work. And, you know, Maybe if I do have this upper limit, then I have more time for following my curiosity. So honesty is one of my core values. So it's just like, yeah, I do want to do all these other things as well. So so good. Yeah. Is there anything that we haven't talked about [00:43:00] yet that you wanted to bring up with this idea of moving the pale paler?  Adam: Well, I was thinking about one other thing. Once we, you know, as I was preparing in my mind about this and it was this not to make this a big things, a very small distinction that can sometimes help to understand what it means to focus on the impact. And it is, it is this idea of don't don't look for clients, look for ways to be helpful. So. Whenever someone feels stuck. Like I can't find clients, where do I find clients? Well, let's not focus on clients. Let's focus on helping people being helpful. And, and again, obviously going back to what we just shared about boundaries and turning pro and defining success so that it actually makes sure to support your lifestyle goals when we start looking for ways to be helpful The spin off effects. The side effect of that is often [00:44:00] a poster becoming a client. It just, it sort of happens by itself. And to me, I found that to be quite. Helpful when, when the anxiety of, oh, I need clients. When that comes up, I just go like, hang on. Let's be helpful. Where can I be helpful? Because it's easy to find that then finding clients, I don't walk around seeing dollar signs above people's heads. Right. It's just not what I do.  Sarah: Yeah, that brings up. This is when I used to call organized LinkedIn local events here in, in Lozan. We maybe organize that with a friend and people came to these networking events, like you said, looking for clients. And I always told them don't your clients are not here. These are people, humans that may just know other humans who need you know, what you have to offer, but it's never a good idea to go to a [00:45:00] networking event and think those are all my potential clients. Like you give off the wrong energy, if you go into a room like that. So yeah, just thinking, oh, these are humans who may know other humans who have. Then yeah, potentially gonna have want to work with me, but, but also don't think, oh, I'm going to tell them, you know, tell all your friends about me. No, that's not planning  Adam: their.  Sarah: Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Adam. I want you to share two things. First of all where people can find you, how they can find out how to work with you in a second. I think you have something where you walk your talk and people can really experience What it would be like to be in your circles. So tell us about, yeah,  Adam: exactly. Well, the easiest way, I guess, is you can just visit my website, which is Adam koala. K a w a L E c.com. And they, you can get in [00:46:00] touch with me. You can read more about the things that I do together with my clients. And you can send me an email from there as well. I am on social media. But I'm not a huge, huge fan or like a very, very present person there. So it can take some time before I see something, if you really want to make sure to get in touch with me send me an email and that's the that's the best way. And yes. So I, I really, I mean, I enjoy. Our conversations. And we started getting to know each other a year ago. And I was so happy when you decided to you were accepting my invitation to be part of my summit that I did last year, calling the authentic business building and marketing summit and authenticity to me like that. I just needed you to be part of that. So, and I'm so glad I did. And you said, yes. So to honor that kind of, I, I, I wanted to offer all the listeners a way to access the, the interview I did with you. And two additional interviews that are really on the topic of authenticity and connection [00:47:00] and providing experience for people. So and they can go again to my, my home website and it's Adam koala.com forward slash humane marketing. Human marketing protocols and that's where they can basically sign up for, for taxes, those three videos. And I'm sure that you'll link that somewhere around this episode as  Sarah: well. And the show notes and in the description of your, of your app, where you're listening to this podcast. So, yeah. Wonderful and generous offer. Thank you. And that summit was just so great. So thank you so much. And the final question, Adam, what are you grateful for today or this week?  Adam: I am going to say that I'm back running that I'm really grateful for, for being back running it's I took a bit of a, a pause during holidays and all of that, and today was my first day back running. And I'm really grateful for that. Like, it's, it's one of my, that's one of the things that [00:48:00] really feels like. And I can tell because the last few weeks slowly, slowly been some early drippings happening, happening for my, my refilling my cup. So I wouldn't say that. Yeah. Running nature moving the body. Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much for being on the show, Adam. Really  Adam: appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Today's conversation with Siobhan Jones about why writing a book is good for your business fits under the P of Product in the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala Siobhan Jones is a Writing Mentor, Self-Publishing Coach, and founder of The Unlocked Creative. Writing has always been on Siobhan's heart. After going from trauma to triumph Siobhan realized she had a story to share, a purpose to pen and a reason to write. She realized that she was called to help women stop hiding and go after their writing dream. Now, Siobhan helps women to plan, write and publish their first book. Siobhan lives in Canberra, Australia with the loves of her life; her daughter, husband, and two talkative cats. When she's not writing you can find Siobhan spending time with her family, patting cats, drinking coffee, imagining cactuses and sheep, and running (not all at the same time). Siobhan's favorite quote: "Don't wait. The time will never be just right." - Napoleon Hill In this episode, you'll learn why writing a book is good for your business, and... The self-publishing process The pros and cons of self-publishing (and how your ego plays a role) An idea of costs related to self-publishing Why writing a book is good for business Ways to make time for writing your book while running your business How to put your inner critic on mute and write your business book The structure and/or discipline of writing and so much more. Siobhan's Resources   Siobhan's Website The Unlocked Creative Podcast Get the Time to Write guide and find more time to write your book! Connect with Siobhan on: Instagram Facebook Facebook Group   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Chavon. How are you today?  Siobhan: Hello? I am so well, how are you?  Sarah: I'm good too. Yeah. And you just mentioned you, you moved house and as an introvert and highly sensitive person that it feels always like, oh, that is a big thing. I dunno how, how you feel, but to me, moving is a big.  Siobhan: It's a big thing and it's always surprising how much stuff. Actually exists that  Sarah: we don't use. Yeah. Yeah. You collect things over time and then it's a good opportunity to get rid of some stuff as well.  Siobhan: Yeah, it absolutely is. Yes. But, but subtly, I think sometimes you have to do it a bit subtly. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. Nice. Bye bye. This is the second time you actually get to chat and talk. I was on your podcast and now you're here talking to us about book writing, and I'm really excited to [00:01:00] dive into this topic. First of all, also, because I've just gone through that last year and then also. Curious to hear what you think about it. And you kind of brought up this conversation around, you know writing a book can be good for your business. And so we'll dive into that, but maybe before we start I'd be curious to have you share a bit, you know, how you became a book writing, mentor, how you, how do you decide, okay. That is what I'm going to do.  Siobhan: This is a, this is a great question and I'll try and keep it. The short version, not the long version. A few years ago, I was sort of having some doubts about my career in communications in government. And I wasn't sure what to do. And I thought, you know, I've spent so many years practicing this communication craft, helping clients to [00:02:00] essentially market their services and programs to the public. And I just didn't want to progress with promotions anymore. And I wasn't sure what the heck to do. And so I thought, well, what was, you know, what was the thing that I love to do as a kid? Because I really wanted to connect deeply with something meaningful because one of my core values is meaningful work or impact. And I. Yeah. Thought back to when I was a child and just absolutely loved to write stories and remembered how I wanted to be April from the teenage mutant ninja turtles, but maybe not so much of a reporter, more of a. Telling the truth and whatever that is. So I really went on this a bit of a journey. I started writing children's picture books, [00:03:00] and then I began writing and reconnecting with the spoken word through my podcast, which really lit me up. And then. Helping other people to start that writing process themselves. And it was just, you know, I think the hardest thing about starting to write is starting to rise.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. This is so good. I love that you went back to your childhood. I, I tell that to my clients or it's part of the humane marketing approach is like, well, how do you figure out what your past. About or what your, why is, or, you know, guy kind of does big purpose word? Well, oftentimes it is, you know, going back to what you'd like to do as a child. And I love that you did that in order to figure out then while you know, what is, is, is it that I really want to do so good. Yeah. Thank you.  Siobhan: Thank you. Yeah. And [00:04:00] I hope that, you know, people listening who might be in a career transition or not really sure of the next step knows that they're absolutely not alone. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, so then you, you started writing children's books, but I think eventually you also kind of pivoted into this whole idea of helping others with their book. Right. Tell us what you learned in that journey of then writing your own business books, so to speak that work for  Siobhan: you. This is, this is also one of those see I'm a very, I really like to plan things in my life and this was yet again, one of those things that was completely unplanned. I. I spoke with, I have a business coach and, you know, I was speaking about how I would like to get my children's picture books, published the stories published in the [00:05:00] traditional sense. And she really questioned me on it and said, well, why wouldn't you just self-publish them? And I thought, I have resistance to this idea. Why do I have resistance to this idea? And then I thought I'm going to go after this because what I find happens with me is that I get resistance there for a reason. And thankfully I have people kind of like signposts, helpful souls along the way to help me really get back on the right path. And Question and reflect why I might be resisting things. So I, I really did some discernment work and thought, I don't actually want to self publish the children's picture books yet they need more work, but I will go ahead and self publish. And it was just a matter of them deciding what that, what that was going to be. And the thing that I had had done. [00:06:00] You know, I'd had lots of content available on my podcast for free, and many of those things were really quite practical steps and strategies that people can take to, you know, when they're learning about how to start writing, how to make it a habit and then, and then how to go on and, and self-publish, but what I wanted to do was actually self-publish my own. So that I could help other people from that extra layer of experience that I think is absolutely crucial whenever you are teaching people or helping others to reconnect with their own writing or creative inspiration. So that's sort of the journey of what I've been on. And honestly, self publishing. It's just opened a whole new world for me. And I know that it's, it's something that. You know is not, you know, it hasn't been around for hundreds of years, but the technology at the moment [00:07:00] is allowing quite a large growth in that industry. So there's lots of opportunity.  Sarah: Yeah. Did you end up publishing your children's books? The traditional way?  Siobhan: Not yet. I am still working on those. So I think for me, I I definitely would like to, and it's something that I will pursue, but I have another project up my sleeve at the moment. So. That that's that's something that I'm focusing on this year is this new project, which is actually writing a memoir. So it's something that I haven't done before and am really, really excited about where it can lead. I just think, you know, I, I kind of boxed myself in thinking I'll just be a children's picture book writer, but this is opened up that other door for me as well to think about. Well, there are actually other kind of formats and categories of variety, and it's [00:08:00] just immense this opportunity that we have to really express that express ourselves creative. Sarah: Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Cause I went through the same thing when I thought about, you know, do I self publish? Do I publish within, you know, the traditional way? And, and there's obviously two camps. If you do search online or, you know, if you work with coaches and one will tell you, this is absolutely the only way. And then others tell you, well, you can be just as I was going to say successful, but a. That's not really the word I want to use, but you can get the book out there and attract the right people even with self-publishing. And so I really also had to think about, for me, what really was the driving factor, as well as the timing because I, I just felt that my books were very Timely, like they needed to come out now. Not, you know, when I eventually [00:09:00] found an editor as sorry, I publisher and it just like I had to get them out now. So I think that makes a huge difference. Even I'm talking to friends who are kind of hybrid publishing, so meaning they have some kind of a support with the publishing. They actually do print the book. And even there there's like the time it takes as much longer even though you pay for those, you know, you pay up front and it takes much more time to actually get the book out and there's delays. And where in the self publishing process. I feel like you are really the driver of this thing. Of course there's, you know, editing if you're hopefully gonna go through some editing phases, but, but you are in much more in control than if you work with the traditional way. Would you agree with that? Is that also your experience?  Siobhan: Absolutely agree with that. You know, with some of the benefits of self-publishing, as you would know, [00:10:00] Sarah, you own the rights to your book rather than the publisher owning those rights. You, you know, like you've just said, you don't have to wait around for months for a publisher to reply to your query letter. You know, you get to choose with the suppliers that you want to work with along the way. So people like editors and graphic designers, it's a huge, it's a huge advantage. Being able to. Personally tos the people that you're going to be working with collaboratively, which is another gorgeous part of, you know, self publishing and creating this thing and birthing and into the world. I think, you know, you get to craft your own journey, your own steps along the way. And you know, in the time of. That really matters to you and your, your life priorities. So I, these are the things that, to me were really meaningful [00:11:00] and things that I hadn't really thought about prior to finding out more about self publishing. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so important. And, and I know countless stories of people who worked with a publisher and kind of felt like they had. You know, Ben their integrity just a little bit, because we didn't really feel exactly aligned you know, the cover didn't look like they wanted it to look, or they had to use a certain title just because it's sold more because obviously the publisher's job then is to sell as many books as possible. So, so yeah, it's really also, I think in my opinion, it's really a question of ethics as well. It's like, Are you okay. You know, going really with the big publisher to go after more book sales in a way I'm hesitating to bring this up, but I think there's also a question of ego in this game. This, if you look at the people who [00:12:00] have, you know, published with with the real publisher that. It does sound still good. Right. And maybe that's also why we had resistance to go with self-publishing. It's like, oh, but that's not the real thing. You know,  Siobhan: it's like a hundred percent.  Sarah: My ego gets a little hit if I'm not really publishing the real traditional way. So I think there's some deeper inner work to do there. Siobhan: I love that you brought that up, because that was definitely a piece of my own resistance. And particularly towards children's picture books. I had one of the self publishing platforms that I help people to navigate. A representative from there actually said, you know, pretty much you can publish any type of book. We don't, I wouldn't necessarily recommend children's picture books. And I thought, oh, that's curious, because it has to do with the, [00:13:00] with the quality of the paper and the book material. And her sense was that. Children's picture books, you know, getting, getting there where she's at the point where she has to really try to see that it's self-published but other books are probably better done you know, in, in other genres and with other types of materials available. But yeah, really, for me, it was like, I remember having a conversation with my husband about it saying. You know, I would really like to have these particular stories published by a publisher by, you know, a real industry publisher as someone who's known. And he just looked at me and said, isn't that just an ego thing? And I went, oh, so I really liked these conversations. People that you can trust about how you're feeling. And I, and I absolutely agree with you. [00:14:00] It did require some work on the ego. And you know, I think another thing to remember as well is that if you are thinking, if you're really. Kind of hanging on this idea of being traditionally, traditionally published. There are people today who have self-published and then had their material picked up by traditional publishers, because they've seen that it's successful in the market, which is primarily what publishers are looking at. So that's something to keep in mind as well.  Sarah: Yeah. The backup plan you're telling your ego. Well, there's always that chance.  Siobhan: Exactly. Calm down. Sarah: Okay. That's great. I love that word sharing kind of openly about this eco stuff that's going on. Yeah. When you're deciding, you know, which way to go. Let's talk about. You know, just in general, why writing a [00:15:00] book and having a book can be good for a business an entrepreneur coach consultant any type of service entrepreneur. Siobhan: Absolutely. So I think for me, there are five key things. The first, the first benefit is relationship. So, you know, for entrepreneurs and solopreneurs, you can really build that one-to-one intimate knowing relationship with your, with your client or your prospective clients. So it is a form of long. It is long form content, which helps to really create and nurture. The knowing relationship between you, the author and the person with the expertise in a particular area, which is what you're telling through your story in your book and that real connection through your, through the language and stories that you're telling about the expertise, but also with fragments of [00:16:00] yourself strewn throughout the book that your client's going to resonate with. So, you know, I think. It helps your client to understand your values as well. And, and what you stand for, which is either going to repel or attract people. So you know, but it's, it is a really powerful medium. So that's the first thing I would say. The second is, you know, It's you providing a transformation to someone, you know, whether it's a solution that you might have that's related to, I don't know, say you're a vegan chef or something, you know, a solution to meal planning during the week and your story of how you got to w how you meal plan as a vegan, you know, it's, it's something that you can teach really easily through a book format. So. You know, I think transformation doesn't have to be necessarily transforming your whole life, but pieces [00:17:00] of your life that eventually lead to greater change. So that's number two. Number three is, and I mentioned a little bit about this before, but you're showing that you do have expertise in this particular area, so of your business and really You're building your credibility by having this essentially, it's one of the tool tools that you have in your toolkit as a business owner. You know, you can also have greater visibility when you're connecting with other business owners and collaborating with other people on, you know, who can help you to promote your book, but also establishing those relationships I think is really crucial. So that's the third thing. And the fourth thing is. It's low cost. And when I say that, I say it with a caveat because you can make it as expensive as you like to produce your book. Essentially, you can make it, you can do it on a pretty tight budget. You know, if you don't want to [00:18:00] produce a printed book, you can produce an ebook and they're much less less expensive to produce, obviously because there's no printing cost involved. And the actual purchase price of e-books is much lower because. You know, the person isn't ordering and they don't have to have a physical book delivered. So that's number four is low cost. And the fifth thing is something that's probably overlooked a little bit. And it's that you get to be creative. So. You know, you get to really hone your message. You really get to clarify it and be really clear about what it is and, you know, even redefine it if you need to. So that's, that's a huge benefit. And even eventually you can repurpose the content that you have in your book. So. They're just the five benefits of why having a book in your business is a good idea. Sarah: Yeah, I love all of them. I think my favorite one is definitely the number one, the relationship [00:19:00] because. I do feel like you it's it's, it's like a podcast. But it's even, it's different because you don't hear the voice, obviously, but since it's long forum, it's really like you're, you know, spending depending on the length of the book, but you're spending a few hours. With you know, with the author and oftentimes I don't know how many people read books like I do in their bed, but oftentimes like you don't really cozy kind of surroundings. And so you feel like really you're getting up close to, to the, the author and yeah, I think that, that makes a huge difference. And of course, You know, and that depends how much you also bring a view to your book as the author. Just like in humane marketing you know, we bring a lot of us to our marketing. I definitely encourage the listeners. If you are writing a book, do bring parts of you to your book as [00:20:00] well. That's where their relationship really gets deeper. And like you said, people get to see your values. I think that's, that's so important. Yeah. I wanted to also follow up on the, on the cost. Maybe we can just go a bit deeper there because if you know, if you're completely new to this, like I had no idea what it would cost to, to write a book, whether it's self-published or, or not. So can you maybe share some insights there for our listeners?  Siobhan: I am. I'm very happy to do that. So you know, I mentioned the vague statement that you can do it for as much, or as little as you like, really it's all about, you know, the time and the investment that you have that you're willing to make in publishing your book. So what I always recommend is that you decide on your budget first and then you allocate, you know, particular Not percentages, but you [00:21:00] prioritize things like editing and book cover design, because these are the things that are going to attract or repel your readers. And, you know, one of the biggest bug bears that people have about self-published books is the quality. So there are. People are getting much better at doing this well, but I think especially in the early years of self, the self publishing industry, you know, there was some people who would just, you know, publish whatever they liked without editing. And I know. Everyone listening would absolutely never think of doing that ever, but it's just something to be mindful of. And that I emphasize in my courses that I have available is that quality. You really need to prioritize that because again, The book that you're producing represents your standards and your values and your readers will either be attracted or repelled by those. [00:22:00] So but going back to costs, you know, that, like you mentioned, there are agencies that do provide kind of that hybrid publishing model. They tend to be I would say, you know, literally for me, when I was doing the research around this upwards of $5,000 you know, going up very quickly to, you know, tens of thousands of dollars to 10 tens of thousands of dollars. Yeah, exactly. So you're, you're right there. You know, or you can take the reins and enjoy stepping through the self publishing process yourself as an example, my book you know, I published it in under three months and I didn't say. A strict budget, but I published it with a budget within a budget of 1500 Australian dollars. So that's around, I'd say probably 800 or 900 us dollars. And that included all of the setup costs my you know, inter [00:23:00] international standard book number. ISBM. Graphic design and editing and all of those things. And I didn't promote very much though. However, so that's, that's what I advise people to do. I just really wanted to produce this book to just, you know, see if I could do it and see what the process was like. But definitely from my perspective, I think that's that. Fairly inexpensive way to do it. And I did engage a professional graphic designer who did both the type setting. So setting the type, the font, all of that sort of thing, as you would be aware, Sarah, and the actual design of the book cover and all those sorts of things as well. I went to a professional editor for two of the three editing steps. So I did my own structural editor. But then the, I actually, sorry, I had two editors. I [00:24:00] neglected to mention that, but I chose to have two different editors for the two different types of editing, which is not a hundred percent necessary, but I did choose to do that. So, you know, there are ways and means you can, you can pull one lever and you can spend more in one area than in another. But for me, I put most of my funding into the quality aspects of producing the book, because that was the thing that was really crucial to me in producing the book. So does that answer your question  about  Sarah: that? And what I would add is you know, there's the quality of the book in terms of. You know, spelling and, and the paper and the design and the formatting. There's definitely a quality aspect of that. But then there's obviously the quality of the actual. Content, the writing the, how your big idea comes [00:25:00] through, you know, is there any kind of structure in your thoughts? And that to me is, is just as important, if not more than the actual quality in terms of, you know, is there any spelling mistakes you can read a very. You know, good quality book in terms of yet there's no spelling mistakes, but then it's like all over the place and you're like finished reading the book and you have no idea what you actually just read. So that's why to me, there's also cost related to maybe working with someone like you or, you know, someone I do also kind of work on the big idea. I don't do the same work as you in terms of. You know how to actually write it, but let's come up with this idea that your book is going to be about so that you have a structure and, you know, you know, there's three chapters. There's going to be three sub [00:26:00] chapters. So there's a good flow in the book because otherwise. Yeah, I feel that that's really a big part of the, of the, of the quality of the book as well. So maybe you can share a bit what your role is in, in helping your clients with some of that, right?  Siobhan: Oh, absolutely. So I. I 100% agree. And in fact, it's, it's quite amusing that, you know, I started off speaking with you today, talking about how I remembered when I was a child, you know, what I love to do, and that actually continued, you know, through university. My major was writing and cultural studies. So you know, I think absolutely you can have a beautifully wrapped gift with nothing in it. You know, it's, it's absolutely, you can definitely have that. But that's not going to engage people. It's not going to excite people, inspire people[00:27:00] help them to see the world differently. Really the true power of books I believe. And you know, I think in terms of, you know, the structure is one thing, ideas that's where you need to start really is what is, what is, what is this book about? What is this book about? And being super, super clear on what that is and not letting anything else. Come into the story that isn't part of that big theme that you're writing about. So, you know, I could talk for hours about this. So really it's about, you know, you need to make sure that you spend that time to allow yourself to have the space, to come up with the ideas. And then the big idea, the big theme for the book that is the universal theme. That's going to connect with your readers. Deeply human level. And yeah. So, you know, makes sense now that I'm speaking on humane [00:28:00] marketing, because I'm talking about the human connection here, but you must have that down. Pat, before you pick up your pen to write, you must have your core idea, you know, and, and that can take a lot of time to get to get right. To really you know, I think one of the things in Western society in particular is that we don't allow enough stillness to allow those ideas to come in and really marinate on them and, and let them take shape. So, you know, you would know about this because I believe that your, you know, in your book, Everything flows really well. And you've got a beautiful, like I said to you a little while ago, Sarah, that I felt like I was just sort of sitting, having coffee with you. And you were taking me on this journey and that's exactly how you want to feel when you're reading a book and really deeply connecting with the author. So I would start there. [00:29:00] Then there's, there comes the most difficult part, I believe, which is actually. Sitting down and writing a really messy first draft and that has to be done. Whether you plan it. Then, or you just write and then restructure divides people into two camps, which are the, the, the, the pantsers people who fly by the seat of their pants and the planners. And so I have struggled over the years to realize that I, my approach to writing had been pantsing, but I'm actually a life planner. So you know, it's hilarious the way that creativity works.  Sarah: Yeah. It's funny. When I think about me, I'm an inf J so the J stands for judging, but, but really what it is. Planning everything. And so that's what my life looks like. And so that's how I wrote my [00:30:00] books and managed to write two books in a year. It really is that structured approach, but I can totally see that it works, that you know, the other camp can work as well. It just depends what your natural superpowers are in. You know, like more creative approach, that's just how you are wired. Then I don't see anything wrong with that. It's just, it's just different.  Siobhan: I I need to sort of correct myself a little bit there because you, you always need structure. Your book is always going to need structure. In terms of the method of how you go about it. Yes. Yeah. There's people are very different. So yeah. Unfortunately for people who don't like structure, it's, you know, it's part of, it's part of writing a book and it's part of what makes, you know, it's like part of constructing a house. You need the [00:31:00] pillars to be standing strongly, to be able to build. Beautiful framework for people to glide through that house. So you absolutely need structure. Yes.  Sarah: I find like, it's almost like if you. Naturally structured then you probably won't need as much guidance with that. Maybe you need more kind of mental on blocking, you know, it's like mental guidance, confidence coaching, that kind of support or creativity writing where if you are naturally just creative and you can write for hours, then you need more help with the structure. Do you agree with  Siobhan: that? I think it, yeah, it's, it's very individual and, you know, depends on what you, how you best learn to write and also then how you apply that. So, yeah, we're, we're all quite unique in that and it's, it's really about, [00:32:00] you've kind of hit the nail on the head there. So it's about. Working out your best writing life and how you write with inspiration and how you motivate yourself to write the story that's meaningful for your readers and for you. Because, you know, ultimately you're not going to sit down and spend hours writing something that isn't meaningful for you as well. So I think that's something else. That is kind of overlooked a little bit is just the sheer enjoyment of the process is really important. Like if you don't enjoy writing it or. You are under no obligation to do it at all. It's really about, you know, is this a medium that lights you up? And you know, if you enjoy reading books and you're entertaining the thought of writing and you have this kind of deep little flame inside that says, write the book, write the book, write the book. Then [00:33:00] I believe that's absolutely there for a reason. I think what I primarily do is, is really guide people to understanding the process of oh, first of all, accepting. The hardest part of writing is actually sitting down and writing and making it a habit in your life and integrating it into your life. And I help people with the time management side of that. And and when I say time management, I don't mean, you know, providing them with the schedule, but actually really looking at their values and life priorities and identifying, you know, if writing is one of those, well, how do I. Ref like that, you know, how do I have that reflected in my schedule? And then, then assisting them with the strategies and tools to be able to integrate it. And I think. You know, I have a couple of courses available. One of them goes through, you know, how to write and finish your first draft so that messy draft process starting to write, making it a habit [00:34:00] and then writing the thing, actually doing it. And then for people who want to continue on and actually do want to self publish. There's the, there's the author, the unlocked author rather which steps people through the whole process. So it's really about I feel like one of the really big barriers to starting to write and then going on to self publish. Is the sheet overwhelmed about all of the information that's just available everywhere and trying to sift through that and work out well, this person writes for four hours a day, this person, you know, gets up at 4:00 AM and this person writes at 11:00 PM, which one's right for me. And it is always going to be about what's uniquely, right? For you as a writer.  Sarah: So important. Do not think you have to do it. You know, everyone else is telling you more except for them. Yeah. Yeah. So are these [00:35:00] courses the main part of your work, do you also work one-on-one tell us a bit more about how you.  Siobhan: Yeah. So I, I do have these courses. So, you know, the first one I mentioned is called the writer unlocked and it's actually the book that I produced is the book version of that course. So I provided it in another medium, which goes back to what I was saying earlier about the great thing about books is that you can repurpose them. But it really is for people who want to. Right. And just need that guidance. And I do have an online community community that people can join for that accountability. Because I talk a lot about that in the course. And again, it's unique to you. One form of accountability, you know, my form of accountability is not going to work for everybody. So understanding those really. Those really important key parts of taking, writing into your life as a practice, [00:36:00] really. So yeah, so that definitely those, that course, and then the self publishing course, which is the unlocked author. But I do offer one-on-one services, mentoring services for people who are feeling particularly stuck. I tend to find that you know, one of the main things that happens for all right I've only ever had one author who said that they don't experience it, but is the inner critic and strategies to help people to basically put that thing on mute because it can be done. It won't go away. Won't go away. But you know, we're all familiar with that mute button now, so we can do that. We can put it on Butte and right.  Sarah: Nice. Yeah, that's wonderful. I think you also have a free guide that tell us a bit about that and we'll share the link in the show notes.  Siobhan: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. And I think, you know, I say that one of the hardest things is starting to write. I [00:37:00] think the other thing is the idea of time. So particularly for entrepreneurs and solopreneurs, who. Trying to work out. Okay. Well, you know, if you've decided that writing a book is for you or you're thinking about it, then one of the barriers can be, how do I actually fit this into my life? And so I created the time to write guide and you can get it for free, from bit dot L Y slash time to write guide. And in that guide, you get essentially a way to identify. Where you truly do have time because you do, if you prioritize it and it means something to you and you value it, and there is a schedule in there for you to plan that writing time in I've also provided a few options for you as well. If you're really struggling with those limiting beliefs which is supported through the unlocked creative podcast as well. So that's also for.  Sarah: Wonderful. [00:38:00] Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that the podcast as well, and people can own so well put the link to, to our episode when I was a guest on yours so that people can go check that one out. So yeah. Thank you so much. Shawan this was delightful. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today? Or this.  Siobhan: Thank you so much. It's just, first of all I'm grateful for being here on the show with you because I absolutely adore speaking with you. And so that's one thing, but I'll go another one, which is honestly, it's summer here in Australia, and I had this delightful run this morning in the cool air and it was. Sarah: Nice. Yeah, it's winter here, but it's, it's pretty blessed today as well. Wonderful sunshine. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you for hanging out and, and, and really kind of shining a light on this book publishing [00:39:00] process. I think people will really appreciate the honesty with which we shared here today. Cause I find that. Like, you know, a lot of these things that are completely new to us, we just have no idea. We have these, maybe these, or we do have some ideas, but often they're wrong. And so hopefully this has helped some listeners to really kind of get a deeper understanding of that process. So thank you so much for  Siobhan: sharing. Shawan. Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure.

In this episode, Marc and Sarah discuss the latest Conference of the Parties and whether the outcomes from that meeting matched our expectations, and, real talk, what we expect to happen next. This episode was recorded on Wednesday, November 10, 2021, on the 10th day of COP26.You can watch this episode on our YouTube channel, or join us live when we record new episodes on our Twitch channel — Follow us there to be notified when we go live. Links mentioned in this episode:NYT articleRolling Stones articleGreta's speech[00:00:29] Sarah: I'm trying out using my phone as a webcam because it's better in low light. So there might be, I dunno, a delay. How do I look? Am I in sync with my words?[00:00:39] Marc: There's a little bit of a delay. Yeah. And you got this cool icon on your leg. [00:00:45] Sarah: That's the app I'm using. Cause I didn't pay for it. Anyway, we are gathered here today to record another episode of the, we are climate designers podcast, the raising hell edition or series. This is about the eighth, I think, episode in this series. So we've got quite a collection recorded. We just released the second one today on our podcast. So if you'd rather listen slash watch while we are doing these live, instead of waiting for them to come out on the podcast, you can follow us on Twitch at twitch.tv/climatedesigners.And following us there should give you a notification when we go live and you can hop on and watch right there. If anyone is watching us live, please say hi in the chat. Let us know. It would be great to hear from you, let us know if you had any questions, be part of the show. That's the whole point. Today, we decided that we wanted to find out what the heck is going on with cop 26, neither Marc, nor I have been following the proceedings very closely. So we decided that we're just going to get ourselves caught up, live on stream and figure out what the heck is going on and discuss it. So it's new to us if it's new to you too, great, follow along! For those that don't know, cop 26 is conference of the parties. I believe the 26 is how many meetings they have and they meet once a year. Is that right? So they've been doing this for 26 years. [00:02:35] Marc: Maybe we should meet and other throughout the year as well. [00:02:41] Sarah: Pretty sure it's an annual thing.And this is the 26th year. And just thinking about that is just mind blowing in and of itself. We'll get into this. I am sure. But in actually in the second episode, which I mentioned that I did publish today, I was listening to it today or yesterday. And I remember that I had mentioned in that second episode my hopes and dreams, like my wildest hopes and dreams for cop 26, what could possibly come out of it.And it doesn't sound like it's going that way. They still have two more days of. Conferencing. Oh yeah. I was going to say more about what it is. It's, the conference of the parties. So it's United nations, all of the countries in the United nations. It's what came, it's what brought forth the Paris agreement.So I believe it's all of the countries involved in the Paris agreement. And it's basically delegates negotiators who get together every year to discuss what the heck they're going to do about climate. And that's why I'm. So my mind is so boggled by thinking that it's the 26th year, but when you dive into the history of all of the conference of the parties it's a long kind of exhausting series of negotiations between the countries about forming agreements and treaties and all this stuff.Leading up to the Paris agreement. There were agreements that were going to go into place before the Paris agreement. And then usually it was the United States actually that pulled out. And then if the United States wasn't in a bunch of other big polluting countries would then pull out and the whole thing would fall apart.So it's really been kind of a shit show for many years. And most of that has been the United States as well. Including Donald Trump, pulling out of the Paris agreement and then bite and putting the us back in. And it's just, it's a humongous mess. It's a big mess. But I think most of us had high hopes that this time would be different because we don't have Trump in office anymore. We have fight in who put us into the Paris agreement again and has made some pretty big claims about intentions to do something about climate. And yeah, in the second episode I had said my biggest, most wildest far-reaching dreams would be for all of these countries to come together and make an agreement. About like a whole new economy that doesn't rely on growth because the global economy right now relies on 3% growth. We've talked about this before, which means the entire world has to produce and therefore pollute more 3% more every year, which means even if we transform our entire energy system to non-fossil fuel, renewable electricity energy, and get rid of fossil fuels completely the amount of minerals and water and just deforestation to even create that much renewable infrastructure.We have to do all of that again in about 30 or 40 years. And then again, in 30 or 40 years after that, like that 3% growth requires growth and energy growth in mining growth in deforestation growth in like a whole lot of destructive stuff. Okay. What we really need to do is for those countries to come together and renegotiate, that everybody knows everybody money.At this point, the 3% growth goes towards paying back those debts. When the economy is not growing, we go into a recession and debts, don't get paid and new jobs are not created and people get unemployed and it's just bad news. And that is all by design. So what we need is a different system that aims to reach a steady state.So we can just get off of fossil fuels, meet our needs and not grow anymore, not polluted anymore. Live within the bounds that this planet is physics require of us. Anyway, that was my big hopes and dreams. So that didn't, that doesn't look like it's going to happen. So where should we start?Mark? You've read some stuff. I've read some stuff. We're going to read some stuff online and get ourselves caught up and up to speed with what the heck is going on. [00:07:14] Marc: Yeah. I have no idea where to start. We could just break down exactly what you just shared in the last few minutes, and that could be the whole podcast right there.[00:07:21] Sarah: Have you checked out any bad articles or videos or anything like that? [00:07:25] Marc: Yeah, I've been trying to get a diverse set of sources on my feed and a variety of platforms. Social, obviously there's a lot of great Instagram accounts. I follow a ton of climate newsletters. For better or worse.I try to read some of them. I can. I know you and I earlier talked about the New York times comment forward had to an update on this latest deal that happened just earlier today. Wednesday, I guess us [00:07:52] Sarah: time. Yeah. And we're recording this Wednesday, November 10th. [00:07:56] Marc: Yeah. So a few hours old that piece of news came in and I'm trying to find my notes.[00:08:02] Sarah: Yeah. Let's dive into it to guess just to educate ourselves and I don't know anyone else. Cause I like as a designer, my whole life. We're usually pretty busy with the work that we're doing. In general design is pretty demanding of your focus and attention, and you kinda have to focus and attend to the projects that you're working on.And so it's hard to also pay attention to the things that are going on in the news. Like some of the, be more hardcore environmental activists do. So I imagine that a lot of the people who might be watching or listening to this are in the same boat as you and me and mark were like, we're interested in this stuff, but it's just like the amount of time and attention that we have to put towards it is very limited.So it's hard to keep up. [00:08:54] Marc: Yeah. I'm so behind on my climate stuff this last semester, last few months. [00:09:01] Sarah: Yeah. Do you want to start with the New York times? Yeah. [00:09:04] Marc: Yeah, no. I want to go back to this deal that was released earlier today. It's basically a draft and not a deal, a draft that urges countries to revisit and strengthen in the next year.Their plans for cutting planet warming, greenhouse gas emissions, the draft also urges nations to quote, accelerate the phasing out of coal and to stop subsidizing oil and gas. That's huge. If that actually does happen, [00:09:30] Sarah: that's [00:09:30] Marc: pretty good keyword if it actually does. [00:09:34] Sarah: So where are you reading this [00:09:35] Marc: from a New York times article that we mentioned earlier and it just refreshed, just I lost my [00:09:41] Sarah: place.I love it. When that happens. So what I have on my screen from the New York times is I guess I'll just share my screen here so that we can show some visuals while we're talking.Okay. We headline says what happened at cop 26 on Wednesday, China and USA say they'll enhance climate ambition. And just the wording of that, like who comes up with these things "enhance." And I love that it's in quotes. What does that mean? [00:10:10] Marc: Do you remember? One of the first video means years ago the enhance video.That's what it feels like, every time. I see that word, I think about going back to that main video of all the different clips and movies and TV shows of let's enhance that. [00:10:24] Sarah: Can we enhance that? And it zooms in on this really blurry pixelated piece of camera footage, and then you just I don't know, click a button or something in the artificial intelligence, makes it to super cool, clear through their movie magic, [00:10:38] Marc: it's like a nod to that, let's enhance the climate ambition, but that's how [00:10:43] Sarah: I read it.It's like a joke, right? Yeah. Seriously. Yeah. Enhanced climate ambition. And then the second word there, that's a joke is ambition. Is it just me or I read ambition as not action, like aims, like wishes [00:11:00] Marc: goals.[00:11:01] Sarah: Okay. Anyway the countries vow to do more, to cut greenhouse gases in a, an agreement that commits Beijing to addressing its methane emissions. Here's what you need to know. China and the U S say, they'll do more to cut emissions this decade, the working draft calls for a faster end to coal and tells countries to stop subsidizing oil and gas.That's the part that I do, [00:11:24] Marc: Yeah. That's, like I said, if it, that actually goes through, that'll be huge. [00:11:28] Sarah: And then there's something about sticking points. I don't really know what that means. Six big automakers and dozens of countries agree to phase out gas card sales. So that's actually pretty huge too.I clicked on one of those and it said some of them, I think I do have this open some of the car makers were saying, they're going to phase out gas car sales as early as 2025 or 2030. So that's really soon. Which means you won't be able to buy a gas car, at least from that car maker. And then it said something like the US was not involved.So any US car makers did not I don't know, like pulled out of that deal [00:12:04] Marc: or something and. Transportation secretary mayor, Pete, his response was more or less. We're going to focus on our own problems [00:12:12] Sarah: here at home. [00:12:13] Marc: That fuck dude, it's such a political. Yeah. It's such a political line. It's [00:12:18] Sarah: like this one wants to focus on saving lives rather than saving the planet.What do you think we're doing [00:12:24] Marc: exactly? [00:12:26] Sarah: Where do you think that these lives [00:12:27] Marc: live? And again, our climate crisis, the changing climate knows no borders. [00:12:34] Sarah: I think that these people do not understand what it is that we're actually dealing [00:12:39] Marc: with. I think they understand. I think that there's they have interests in other places.They have people, behind the scenes, urging them, pushing them towards certain, goals or ambitions or policy. [00:12:53] Sarah: Those things are true. And if you put something in terms of focus on saving lives, rather than saving the planet as if they are mutually exclusive. Sure. Yeah. I don't think you understand the situation.[00:13:08] Marc: Yeah. Again, that's a, we can talk about that next time we jump on. [00:13:12] Sarah: Yeah. I am just like making funny faces. I don't even know if my camera's up to speed yet. I'm just like looking at that, like.[00:13:19] Marc: yeah. So I think the two big things that you and I pulled out of that bulleted list, that summary Yeah. So the draft thing about phasing out coal and to stop subsidizing or like that, I think that's a huge push now again, whether or not that actually happens who goes first who's going to lead that part of the draft that is still yet to be determined.[00:13:41] Sarah: We both see the challenge of climate change as an essential and a severe one as two major powers in the world, China and the United States. We need to take our due responsibility and work together and work with others in the spirit of cooperation to address climate change. I like that too. Because I remember it, not that long ago, during the Trump administration, particularly there was a lot of delay ism or denialism of not doing any climate action.If China's not going to do it, or vice versa. And so now it's like China and the United States are coming both coming forward together and saying, it's our responsibility to do this, blah, blah, blah, which is a completely different tone, note that they've been singing than before. So that's, I think that's a good, that's a good thing, right?Like it's [00:14:32] Marc: progress. Yeah. You can't do much without China. [00:14:35] Sarah: Yeah. And to be fair, China has done a lot in the last, I don't know, even like 10 years as far as cutting back on coal, I believe. Yeah. And a lot of that is because the pollution, the air pollution, the air quality in some of the big cities where a lot of production is happening is, visibly and you can feel, you can smell it, you can see it, you can feel it.So they have that felt experience and motivation to cut back on all that air pollution.[00:15:07] Marc: So some other things that this article pulled out that happened today. Yesterday on Tuesday, speaking of yesterday the UN researchers released a report, same article Sarah. So I'm just still sticking with us. They released a report that found that under country's current pledges to reduce emissions, the earth is on track to warm by 2.5 degrees Celsius, 4.5 Fahrenheit.So if we just stick with what we're doing now, because every country thinks they're doing the best, we hear this all the time. Like we're doing all, we can, all the other people that are the naysayers, they're like we just can't switch over to renewables tomorrow. Like we need to, the status quo.If every country just sticks to the status quo, we are in big trouble. So it coming from the UN it wasn't new news, but it was like them saying, Hey, y'all seriously real talk. So I thought that was really interesting that report. It might have all this, but it's also one of those no shit.[00:16:06] Sarah: Yeah. The,I guess what I'm asking in my head about is the tangible actions that come from these things. So I'm looking at things like the document will be used as a template to strike a deal. Okay. Still a lack of firm deadlines and enforcement mechanisms. Is it all just empty words? It's really frustrating.[00:16:30] Marc: Yeah. And it's two weeks, right? The last day is November 12th. You can do a lot in two weeks, I'm sorry, but you could do a lot in two weeks. And if by day 10, right now they have frameworks, they have a template, they have whatever it is that you just shared out. Like really, and I know this is big heady, complicated stuff, but maybe the, maybe cops should be 30 days into a whole month or just lock everyone in a, not let them out, [00:17:01] Sarah: yeah. The original Bretton woods, the agreement where the countries and it wasn't all the countries, it was just like basically the UK and the United States and maybe a couple of other European countries where they decided that they were going to focus on an economy that grows 3% to repay each other for their debts from recovering, from world war II, basically.That was all hammered out in 10.[00:17:25] Marc: So if it took 10 days to create a system that more or less has destroyed the planet or is destroying the planet, we can spend 10 days cleaning up at least 10 days, [00:17:39] Sarah: yeah, [00:17:40] Marc: I want to pause you right there. I'm seeing your screen. I have this pulled up myself. Tensions have flared over what sorts of financial aid richer countries should give poorer ones to deal with the rising damage from heat waves, floods, droughts, and storms.And while there is broad agreement that most nations aren't cutting their greenhouse gas emissions quickly, there's far less consensus about how to get deeper reductions. It's that the first sentence there really stood out for me. And I was talking to Rachel about this not to get too hippy dippy for those who don't know, I live in San Francisco.Sometimes peace, love and happiness comes out in me and I'm all about it, but so cute, zooming out. I really do feel like as much as we're talking about cutting emissions, renewable energy, all that, climate stuff at the same time, I really do believe that we need to have a conversation around just being more kind and loving to one another, because all of this is going to take massive collaboration.There's going to be a lot of sacrifice. We have to really understand how humans work. And so with that, we need to really work on ourselves and our relationships with one another. So when I read that tensions flared over was it's like, all these countries have representative from every country, the rich ones, and the poor ones are in a room.And I can only imagine kind of their body language and just, if we had some fun with this, vision, you have the poor countries, trying to beg them, please give us, some help, please, do your part in. And the more richer countries are just like, nah, bro, we're good.Like how fucked up is that? If you see someone on the street that is in need of help, in a dire situation and their life depends on it, you're going to help them. And so I feel like I'm not trying to do a broad stroke of that. We don't care for one another and we don't share love with people and all that hippy-dippy stuff.I'm just wondering, how do we bring that into these types of conversations with politicians, with corporations? At the end of the day, they're all humans too, right? [00:19:37] Sarah: It's actually less hippy-dippy than all of that. Like the example that you said, if you see somebody on the street who's suffering and you're going to want to help them in that scenario.I think implicit is that person is suffering. And that suffering is unrelated to you in any way. Like you don't know that person, you have no relationship with that person. They're a stranger. There, there are scenarios completely separate from yours, but just human to human peace, love happiness.You want to reach out and help them because you're human, they're human. And you share that we have a common struggle and all that stuff. That's the peace, love and happiness angle. But the truth of the matter is in this situation, that person that you see on the street, who's suffering is your like employee.And you have profited off of their hard work and misery and suffering for 50 years or something. And now they're at a point where they need a little bit of I don't know, they need a loan. They're coming to you for a loan to. Expand their whatever facilities or production capabilities or whatever it is to modernize their production because they're sitting there, with bare feet in the mud making, whatever it is that you, their employer has, mandated that they make.So there's actually between these countries the richer countries and the poor ones. There is a relationship there. They're not in their own little bubbles and they act as if, oh, you're struggling. That's on you, bro. I'm good. I'm gonna keep holding onto the money that I've made because I did it better than you did.And that's just the way the cookie crumbles. But no, the truth of the matter is. The countries that are poor, have been providing resources, minerals, a lot of these raw materials that have then been manufactured into goods and sold for a profit by the richer countries. Like this whole planet is connected and the economy is global.And so they're not operating in a bubble. They're not poor because they just didn't manage to do their thing. The richer countries are richer because they got a head start on industrializing their economies, and then they Put a system together in like Bretton woods and further world bank stuff where the countries that were ahead of the industrialization game made the rules and they made the rules such that everything benefited them and not the poorer countries that still need to catch up.And so it's seeing one of your employees who you've been profiting off of on the street struggling and asking you for an advance on their payday loan or whatever. And you're saying, no, that's on you, bro. But thanks for all the hard work.So I don't think it's as hippy-dippy as you you make it, it's actually pretty [00:22:56] Marc: nasty. I like that. Diving deeper into their relationship. It's that last part of that first sentence that really stood out it's the fact that they're going to be the ones being affected by the things that they're not for one didn't create and second that they are not prepared for.And for me, that is just, again, I just go back to, we also need to have the same conversations around yeah. How do we work with one another. How do we put ourselves in situations that we can empathize more and we can start to develop Yeah, more connections with people that don't look like us so that we understand where they're coming from.And we perhaps might be able to change how we view them and the rest of the world. And maybe if we get more people to snap out of this individualistic me, my tribe kind of thing. The faster we can really, address this stuff because those people could bring their specific professional skills to the conversation.Like maybe some of the delay zone that's happening is because those people just don't know how to connect to the stuff on a more personal level. And then once they do, then perhaps they can join the team. Does that make sense? Like maybe we have to start personal first before we expect them to share their skills and talents.And in this in this fight, Yeah, [00:24:18] Sarah: I think there's also a bit of the Malthusian element in all [00:24:23] Marc: of this[00:24:24] Sarah: and all this. This is the part that we put in our becoming a climate designer course. And when, basically when I see an environmentalist or a piece of climate communication saying poorer communities are going to have to deal with harsher effects from climate change, when they had much less like responsibility for creating the problem in the first case and the environmentalist or the piece of climate communication saying this means, wow, isn't that fair?In the spirit of fairness or. Our shared humanity and just like ethics and what's good and justice, we shouldn't allow that to happen. But when you look at it from a Malthusian theory, point of view, Malthus basically said, if you help the poor, you're just going to get more poor. And it's a moral failing.He was a Christian, Reverend, this was in the 1890s or whatever. And good old Christianity teaches us that. I dunno, somehow this, wasn't originally Christianity, but somehow it got twisted into something like this, where if you're poor it's because you've sinned and this is your moral punishment for your failings as a Christian or whatever which is, it's just awful. But basically what that means is if you empathize with somebody with a Malthusian point of view and you listened to that statement of the poor will feel the effects of climate change more than the rich, it sounds like more judgment being rained down upon you by God for your sins.And the the judgment of the rich is that they get to avoid some of those effects of climate change and everything is the way that it should be. And we don't need to change a thing. It is the exact opposite. Then how the environmentalist's or the climate communicators want people to take it. And so they hear that I think it's the same thing that happened during COVID.Everybody was like, oh my God, let's, deal with COVID until statistics started coming out that lower income communities and people of color were dying from COVID at higher rates than white people and affluent communities. And it was like the next week we saw Karen out on the street protesting against lockdown in America and people going to church and not masking and saying, I am protected by Jesus's blood or whatever.Like they literally thought they were immune because of. Religion or something because they were white. I just you have to try to empathize with this point of view, even though it's madness and realize that the communication that you're putting out there about oh, this is unjust. This is unfair is actually backfiring against certain people or in the minds of certain people.[00:27:40] Marc: And I think it also shows otherism. Yeah, in it's full form. [00:27:46] Sarah: That is absolutely other ism. And you know what? I still have some more research to do, but I saw something today that apparently the whole concept of race was invented by the Portuguese in the 14 hundreds to justify slavery. So like this stuff goes way back, [00:28:03] Marc: re we've talked about this.I don't want to get into it because it's a different topic, but there's a great documentary that I really need to rewatch. I saw this a few months ago and next time around, I'm going to sit and take notes. Exterminate all the brutes it's on HBO. I've told you to sign me, Sarah, just to get like a two week trial and just watch that.And we can watch other things too, but highly recommend everyone who's watching and listening to. If you have HBO max, or if you don't ,sign up for the free trial, highly recommend it. It's a, it's an amazing four-part documentary. Where Raoul Peck an amazing documentary filmmaker decades experience his latest documentary before this was, I'm not your Negro, which rave reviews.He basically goes on a quest to to go and seek out the root, the roots of racism on a global, at a global scale. I really do wish you all were able to yeah. See it and bring your thoughts and ideas to these these Twitch sessions. We'd love to hear them. I think we might be having some technical difficulties. Sarah, are you there? [00:29:10] Sarah: I'm here. Can you hear me? Can you see me? Oh, [00:29:14] Marc: okay. Your video is super slow. So I didn't know if you were trying to talk over me anyway. Yeah. So what were we talking about? Yeah the Portuguese comment that you made, Sarah, it's mentioned in that documentary and I think you're right.So it was basically made up to yeah. Create the idea that we are superior towards another, group of people that don't look like us. [00:29:37] Sarah: . One thing that I read that really struck me. I know that we're on a tangent right now, but bear with us because I think it's interesting. It was, talking about Columbus and he was an idiot, but he was what contracted by Spain, the king and queen of Spain to go and do his little thing.And his little voyage. And he landed in, I think The Bahamas and basically claimed that for Spain. So The Bahamas were then claimed as a Spanish colony and then he grabbed a bunch of indigenous people that he encountered, brought them back to the king and queen of Spain as a gift, as potential slaves, basically.And the queen of Spain clutched, her pearls or whatever, and said, these are Spanish citizens. This is disgusting. So since they had claimed The Bahamas as a colony of Spain, they no longer saw the people from that place as others. And so therefore could not be enslaved. It's just arbitrary, I don't know if the king and queen of Spain sign a deal with the king and queen of France or whatever.And now The Bahamas are not a colony of Spain. And so then they could be enslaved. I dunno, it's just, it just feels very arbitrary to me and ridiculous. Like people are, people just shut up [00:30:56] Marc: and very not to put this lightly. I know there's tons of history and unfortunately millions of people have died because of this idea, but it's also very made up.Yeah, exactly. And this goes to show that everything in life has been invented at some point in time in some form or another. And so this idea was invented, but even Hey, we should write up a draft an agreement and we both should sign it saying that these people should be, it's so if they just have the thought to make it up and do that, then we can have other things that we can make up and counter that to to invite.Yeah. I just, I go back to this often, everything in life is invented and if more and more people saw that and realize that I feel like it'll spark so many new thoughts and ideas and questions and visions of the future, because once people realize that everything that is around them, that laptop, the iPhone the idea of a job everything in life it's invented.If that's the case, then let's start imagining what's possible. Let's invent new things that, as I mentioned, just counter the old stuff. Yeah. I don't know, again, living in San Francisco, man, [00:32:09] Sarah: No, it's real. And I think it was Antoinette Carroll, who said everything that you see around you has been designed and that means that it can be redesigned.Same idea. Yeah. I want to share another thing if I may, did you have something on [00:32:23] Marc: that note though? No, I have a new topic that go ahead. [00:32:27] Sarah: I also came across this article in rolling stone. And it starts out. It's mostly about Obama's speech. People were talking a little bit about Obama's speech and it's pretty hard hitting and pretty real talk.So kudos to Jeff Goodell, whoever you are. I like what you did here. I see what you did here. And I like it. So if you go through this article, he's talking about president Obama arrived at the climate conference in Glasgow, like a spirit from another time he wore a black suit gray shirt, tie, as a crowd of star struck delegates, parted, like holy water around him.They all remembered the happy days with the Paris climate agreement in 2015, when he was the President and Donald Trump was just an orange haired has been reality TV star (he's orange skinned, by the way, yellow haired anyway). And there was for a brief moment, hope that humankind would take dramatic action on the crisis that was threatening the future of civilization.Seeing Obama walking up to the podium to give his speech was reminder of a better time, one delegate emailed me. So right here, there's he's setting up the dichotomy that I think. I don't know. I don't know if you're aware of, but I've been noticing where people who are like vote blue all the way and just like 100% Democrats.Yes. Love Obama, right? And of course Republicans hate him. But. People who are even further left than that, which confuses centrists and Republicans, because they think that the Democrat party line is the left, but environmental activists and the most of them were pretty excited about Obama when he was very first elected.And then he had the really difficult job of having to recover from the recession that he inherited and Chose Obamacare as his thing instead of climate. And, that was his legacy basically. He did take some good actions on climate, but he just didn't do what environmentalist were hoping for.And he's a really good speaker. He does really good talk. But for most of us, the actions just weren't there and we became very disillusioned on Obama and really like I've even seen some activists go to the point of when Obama gets involved. It's the whole thing is ruined because he does such a good job of putting a shiny bow on things with his talk and his words that people stop being impassioned about action, because they think that it's been taken care of because he's just that good at speaking, but not actually doing things. So anyway talks about the speech but the heart of his remarks were targeted at young climate activists. He urged them not to give up on politics. You don't have to like it, but you can't ignore it. He told them it was important to reach out to people who are skeptical about the urgency of the climate crisis. It will not be enough to simply mobilize the converted.It will not be enough to preach to the choir. He acknowledged the generational divide between himself and young activists. You were right to be frustrated folks in my generation have not done enough to deal with potential cataclysmic problem that you now stand to inherit. That's an understatement. I want you to stay angry. I want you to stay frustrated, blah, blah, blah. Gird yourself for a marathon, not a sprint.[00:35:39] Marc: Okay. A lot of what you were highlighting, some of his quotes is very much pointing the finger at the crowd is telling them to do this or like this and this. And when in reality, what really needs to happen is that he turns around and walks into these big corporate conference rooms and actually makes the people that are doing the work, destroying the planet making them change their ways.It's, that's a great example of someone who like what you said in, Obama. Sure. He sucked a lot less than a lot of other presidents, but he still had his at his shit. And it's just another example of politicians those. In and around and from DC, that just, it's all lip service, they deflect, they have the shiny object in their hand over there, so we can all look at it while on the other side of them, behind them.The work is still being done. [00:36:34] Sarah: Yeah. So I really liked this part. We're now in the post speech era of the climate crisis, where words don't matter to the people who matter. You don't want to words anymore. I actually want you to do shit. [00:36:48] Marc: Did you see Greta Thunberg'sspeech? [00:36:52] Sarah: No, but he does go into that here as well. Do you have a link to it? Is it on video somewhere? We can show it. So then he quotes some, activists about what they thought of his speech. I thought president Obama's speech was out of date, to be honest. This was the speech Obama should have given back at cop 15 in Copenhagen in 2009, a dozen years later. So back to what we were saying at the beginning, like seriously at 26 years of this shit it's too late to be vague about why we're failing.Yeah.[00:37:22] Marc: Yeah. I will say I'm interacting with a lot of millennials or no, not millennials. What are they? Zoomers zoom people. Gen Z gen Z. Hold on[00:37:33] Sarah: yeah. So this activist executive director of the sunrise movement, listening to Obama speech, I was reminded of all the broken promises made by leaders in America concerning the climate crisis.Young and marginalized communities have been betrayed again and again by leaders failing to meet the moment that we're in a climate crisis that is destroying our homes, communities, and futures. This is real like the material conditions that are happening are real. We don't need words to say that we're working on it.We don't need anyone to tell us this is a marathon, not a sprint. We need real material conditions to change. [00:38:09] Marc: Yeah. And I was just going to say, the. Young kids, they can smell bullshit a mile away. Yeah. They can call out people. They have no problem calling out people, they demand transparency.They demand authenticity. They demand people be real and authentic. And if you're not man, they can, they're like a shark when they, get a scent of blood a mile away, [00:38:32] Sarah: cause we've all been bullshitted for 20 years. I love this one just before Obama took the stage Dominca Lasota, a 19 year old Polish activists tweeted a picture of activists holding up signs that said, show us the money. Lasota wrote nice words about the climate crisis without action mean nothing. $100 billion for climate finance is still missing. Show us the money, not empty climate concern, so that persons 19, and they are very aware of what actually needs to be done.They're making real legitimate demands. Yeah, it's it's a much different story than the save the planet activists of the seventies. You know what I mean? [00:39:16] Marc: Very different. I do have that clip of Gretta pulled up. If you want to pause real quick and do that. Let's do it. I won't play the whole thing, but you'll get the gist[00:39:26] Sarah: politically. Correct. Green act, bunny hugging or blah, blah, blah. Build back better. Blah, blah, blah. Green economy. Blah-blah-blah net zero by 2050, blah, blah, blah.net zero by 2050, blah, blah, blah, net zero. Blah-blah-blah climate neutral. Blah-blah-blahthis is all we hear from our leaders. Words. That sound great, but so far has led to no action, our hopes and dreams drown in their empty words. Of course, we need constructive dialogue, but they've now had 30 years of blah-blah-blah and where has that led us? But of course we can still turn this around.It is entirely possible. It will take drastic annual emission cuts, unlike anything the world has ever seen. And as we don't have the technological solutions that alone can deliver anything close to that means we will have to change. We can no longer let the people in power decide what is politically possible or not.We can no longer let the people in power decide what hope is. Hope is not passive hope is not a blah-blah-blah hope is telling the truth. Hope is taking action and hope always comes from the people. Wasn't that kind of Obama's message. When he first ran for election was, hope and that coming from the people. Yeah. Yeah. What happened [00:40:55] Marc: to that guy? The person in the rolling stone article said, it sounded as if Obama should've made the speech back in 2009, soone, one last thing I'll bring up before we close out another little tidbit from cop 26. I don't know if you've seen this Sarah more than 500 lobbyists from over 100 fossil fuel companies are in Glasgow.Okay, your video's delayed. So I can't see if that was a sarcastic face or not. There are more obvious, there are more fossil fuel lobbyists at cup 26. Then there are delegates from Puerto Rico, Myanmar Haiti and the Philippines, Mozambique, The Bahamas, Bangladesh and Pakistan combined, and more than double the official indigenous consultancy that consultancy.See that isn't that crazy? That is wild. And last time we chatted, last time we did this, we talked about trust. [00:41:49] Sarah: Like it definitely shows who these negotiations are for. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit more quoting from the rolling stone article. That's I think related to what you're talking about. To activists in the streets what's happening in the conference center is theater. Many are asking what it'll take for people in power to wake up Gretta set an SBH, but let's be clear.They're already awake. They know exactly what they're doing. They know exactly what priceless values they're sacrificing to maintain business. As usual timber pointed out that the fossil fuel industry delegation at the Glasgow conference was bigger than the delegation of any single nation she tweeted.I don't know about you, but I sure am not comfortable with having some of the world's biggest villains influencing and dictating the fate of the world. And then it says other activists were even more cutting inside that conference of polluters. The climate criminals are hiding behind barbed wire and fences and lines of police.We're not going to accept their suicide pact. So I find that really, yeah, cutting and really telling, it's supposed to be the conference of the parties where like everybody negotiates, who's a party to this thing, but it's now being known among the activists as the conference of polluters. It's a conference of climate criminals. [00:43:21] Marc: Conference of the puppets. [00:43:23] Sarah: Yeah. Their suicide pact. And most of them, the generational divide and the age divide is really obvious where most of the people who are inside cop 26 are in their sixties.And most of the people outside marching are, like average age, 20 years old. Yeah. [00:43:43] Marc: Yeah. They're going down in a blaze of glory, they're not going to be around to see the devastation. So they're getting. Yeah they're just gonna coast until their time is up and, just say, fuck it.Sorry, fam. Yeah. [00:43:57] Sarah: So I'm no longer hanging my hopes on anything really beneficial coming from cop 26. [00:44:03] Marc: And I was talking to someone the other day about cop and, I've always said this and I've always had this train of thought even before the climate space, but I've never held my breath for anything coming out of DC or any other state Capitol, or I don't put all my eggs in that one basket.And I think there's at least in the U S a very long track record. If you do the research that shows you why you should think the same, because. Politicians are in bed with corporations. And when it's in spaces like this, where they're literally affecting the atmosphere of our planet to while extracting resources, to put more profit into their bank accounts, and they know that they're doing that, it's just crazy.And then they have the puppets who are elected, who should be working for us, but not really. They have those puppets pulling the levers and writing the policy and doing their little squiggly stuff around all these slimy other politicians to get their take on or to get theirs, they're just working for them.And so I think we really need to, this goes back to my earlier comment. I think we really need to focus on, communities and more at the local level, not to say that our local, that bumper sticker back in the day, think global act local. Yup. Yeah. Like I remember when I saw that as a kid, as a teenager, I was like, huh, that's interesting.And I never really got it until much later in life. And I was like I understood the power of that mindset of really having a worldview, doing what you can for the people around you, because if everyone thought that way and did that, then we can really talk about massive positive change.And so I really do feel like we need to work on us as individuals. We need to start understanding one another and seeing people for who they really are outside of their skin, color, political beliefs, whatever. Like we really got to get on that level because that's how change actually happens. Like we talk about drafts and agreements and deals and policies, whatever, but people.Human beings on the, or on the other end of that. And yeah, I don't know. I just, we need to focus on the world around us and if we can get more people to buy into that and show them their place in that future world, I think we really do have a shot. Of course we'd still need government too.So that's the thing, like as much as I want to put energy and focus on us to, to inspire people to, March up the streets and bang their fists on the doors of these large corporations that are polluting the planet. We also still at the same time do in fact need governments to contribute in some way they don't have to do all of it.And I don't think they should, but I really do think that we can't do this without them. So how do we do both? How do we do that while at the same, also at the same time really. Change the makeup of those people that would be attending COP that should actually be attending COP. [00:47:04] Sarah: Yeah, I think, the way that I would answer that and it's a non-answer, but it's something along the lines of building.Building not building back better, but like building better infrastructure wherever we are. And what I mean by that is maybe looking at our local community and I don't know, encouraging community gardening or growing food for each other, finding ways to distribute money or food or needs to your neighbors.You know what I mean? Finding some way to start building some kind of infrastructure in your local community, because relying on the government to take care of us is just not where it's at anymore. And whether that's volunteering for food, not bombs or, even meals on wheels. I don't know something, but like looking out for each other and. Building co-ops and building communities and designing systems where we have power as a group, as a community, instead of just staying with the status quo, like to me, it's just whatever you create, wherever you go to work, whatever you work for, make sure that it's building. Something that shifts the power from me and my family to us and our community.[00:48:19] Marc: And I'm really glad that you've used that, the food example in that, I think, on a more practical level, look at just what we're experiencing with our global supply chain, look at what's going to happen when wildfires destroyed parts of the interstate or flooding or whatever.We're really whether we like it or not, we really are going to need to do that just because, we can't rely on these, semi-trucks deliver our food, halfway or all the way across the country. Like we, we need to be at that local level because it's, shit's gonna hit the fan and we really do need to rely on each other.If we were. To survive. [00:48:54] Sarah: Yep. I think it's time to start moving into, we live in a failed state mode. And if you start, preparing for that now and getting ahead, When the shit hits the fan, as you say we have the things in place. We know where to go in case of emergency. If we need food or we need firewood to keep ourselves warm, or if we need to get out an emergency message or, think about all the stuff that the preppers, my God, I can't believe I'm saying this.Like it has been saying for years and start doing some of that stuff, start stockpiling and stop relying on the government to take care of us because they just can't respond quickly enough to the crises that are going to start happening. And when they do start happening, the government will start enacting change, but it's just going to be too slow and it's not going to save us.It's going to be reactionary instead of proactive. And so I think we all need to get proactive and start taking care of each other and start building things that work. And then when you build things that work, sometimes the government looks at that and says, oh, let's just use that and start putting money towards it.[00:50:06] Marc: Sometimes that works. Yeah. It's it's learning how to be resilient while we learn to adapt, like it's cause we're going to have to adapt, even if everything at COP happens tomorrow, all the positive things that everyone hopes for, we're still decades out.We're not going to see the effects of all the awesomeness for a good while. Yeah. [00:50:28] Sarah: It's all so much just talk and urges. And I don't know vows, there's nothing like real in it. [00:50:35] Marc: So adapting to what's to come, I think is going to be key, which is also not really part of this conversation. Yes, there's climate adaptation, books and organizations, videos, and articles and all that stuff.I definitely read them, but it's looked down upon because of people don't want to admit that they're going to be walking into this mess. I think it's, of course we all want to hope for solving it, but again, that's going to take time. So there's that like limbo state, right?There's that awkward period that we no doubt will enter and for, and we don't know how long and sooner we're in it. Yes. [00:51:09] Sarah: Yes. Like I was like I said, at the beginning, I was hinting that declaration on what comes out of cop 26. Cause this is the moment where we need like really big action and I don't see that happen.[00:51:20] Marc: Yeah. Everyone was saying that this is the time and this is the cop. If it's not this just not going [00:51:25] Sarah: to happen, like it's going to be lagging behind, is what I don't think, I don't think literally nothing is going to happen, but it's not going to happen fast enough. So we need to look out for each other now.Yeah. So I'm, mentally shifting into more of that adaptation mode, more of that build the better world on our own from the grassroots up mode, instead of demanding, like I think we still need to demand from the government, what we want from them. And we need to be very clear about what that is.I'm still very annoyed at activists who just demand climate action. I would rather, they start putting together real action plans and say, do this and this. Or we demand this, and get very specific But yeah, I think we really need to focus on taking care of each other and taking care of our basic needs.And trying to build systems mutual aid ways that we can make sure that the most, especially the most marginalized people, who are thought of as disposable by the people in power, we need to start looking out for them. So if you happen to be white, like me or white presenting, like Marc notice that is a place of privilege and use that privilege to stand up for and protect people who are marginalized and thought of as disposable by our politicians and who think that, their lives don't matter.Like it's awful. And if they're not going to do it, somebody has to we have to take care of each other.[00:53:00] Marc: Yeah, I really want to build a campfire right now and get some people together and sing kumbaya.[00:53:07] Sarah: Ah, I think that's a note to leave it on. I don't know if it's a good note, but it's a note [00:53:12] Marc: singing kumbaya. The younger listeners even know [00:53:16] Sarah: what that mean because gen Z have kumbaya. Do they have a gen Z version of kumbaya? What's that? I [00:53:21] Marc: don't even know. I love to know that [00:53:23] Sarah: gen Z listeners, please let us know what does kumbaya mean to you.If anything, [00:53:28] Marc: I'll have to ask my students, what is [00:53:31] Sarah: the gen Z equivalent of kumbaya? [00:53:34] Marc: Love it. Maybe that's our homework. Maybe we look it up [00:53:38] Sarah: so much to learn so much. All right. Thanks for hanging out, Marc. This has been real as always. All right. Talk to you later. Bye. Bye.

Join Marc & Sarah in the first of a series inspired by War on Women's song lyrics “Let's raise some wonderful, beautiful hell.”The episodes in this series will be about an hour long, with informal, candid conversation between Marc & Sarah about topics we don't hear many people talking about but that really need to be said. This first episode discusses what so many people in the environmental movement get wrong — calling for us to “save the planet.” Tune in to find out why we think this narrative is actually harmful, and what we need to be thinking about instead.You can watch the full video conversation above, or listen to the edited version below (or in your favorite podcast player.) [00:00:00] Marc: Anyway, thanks for hanging out. Y'all this is our first ever Twitch stream. Did I get that phrase right? Sarah? Is this a Twitch? [00:00:09] Sarah: Yes, we are streaming on Twitch, which makes it a Twitch stream. [00:00:14] Marc: Sarah. Sarah's had to educate me on Twitch over the last couple of weeks. We're learning. He's a great teacher. So yeah, it's a little awkward. Because I can only see you. I don't know who's in the audience. So maybe that's a good thing. I won't get stagefright as I still do. When I know there's dozens of hungry predators wanting to attack me, primal instincts. [00:00:35] Sarah: Yeah. Still out there ready to attack [00:00:38] Marc: you. Yeah. And they're in the audience. Yeah. And now you [00:00:42] Sarah: can't see them, so you're not afraid of them. Is that what it is? Exactly. [00:00:45] Marc: That's why fear of speaking in public is our biggest fear because it, it triggers that primal instinct. Yeah. Public speaking, [00:00:55] Sarah: man. I believe you, but I don't know that it's because we think that there's predators. I think that because we are social animals and the fear of making a fool of ourselves and being socially exiled. Is a greater threat then, or I guess the same threat, because once you're socially exiled, you are, then I'm at risk of being eaten by predators. [00:01:17] Marc: Yeah it's not that it's not that it's that we are. No. So let me explain. So it's a bit more we are out in the open, we're not in our habitat, we're exposed, right? So we're out of our comfort zone and then we just see, another thing, whether it looks like us or not, and then we're like, whoa, I don't know where to hide. I'm not in my safe space. And when you're on stage at mimics, that mimics, that environment mimics those feelings. Yeah, look it up. We can talk about this later. People who don't want to know about this stuff. They came here for climate, not fear of speaking in public [00:01:52] Sarah: I'm exposed. Something like that. Okay. Should we just get [00:01:56] Marc: started? Let's do it before we lose people. [00:02:01] Sarah: Yes. Okay. So welcome to our new episode of this podcast. We're trying out a new format. So bear with us. We are simultaneously recording this and also live streaming to Twitch. So if you want to see what we're talking about live and in real time, our new Twitch address is twitch.tv/climate designers, all one word. And this is our first ever experiment in live streaming. So we're just like getting the hang of it. And we. Don't know yet how often we'll do this. So this is as our first experiment. We've invited a few people, we haven't promoted it widely. Nobody knows what we're doing this, but we've invited a few of our friends to come and give us feedback and give us support and let us know what you think of this format. Let us know what you think of doing this on live stream. I'm seeing Rachel's here from Los Angeles and Kelly from Boston. Thanks for coming. Cat's here and sunglasses emoji. Awesome. Thank you guys for being here. It's it makes me feel so much better that we're not just shouting into the void. We've got our friends and supporters out there telling us if we look okay if the lighting's all right, which it's not really, but that's fine. So thank you. Yeah, this is open to the public. Anybody who just happens to happen upon us could come in here. And I'm really curious to see if we get climate trolls, climate deniers coming in here and saying, you guys are stupid or something and that'll be fun. How will we deal with that? We just ignore them and kick them out. Or we'll we have a conversation, see if we can change their mind. I don't know to be seen, but yeah, if you want to come and join us in the next time we do this, whenever that will be, it will be at Twitch TV dot climate or slash climate centers. And you can follow us to get a notification of when we go live. And that will enable you to give us feedback while we're while we're recording it. And you will have to log in to Twitch in order to be able to chat and interact with us. And that would be great if you did that. Otherwise, if you go, just watching, listening. No problem. No need to log in. Mark since this kind of came from you tell us a little bit about why you wanted to change up our format and try something new, [00:04:25] Marc: right? Yeah, over the last few months or so I think really after the party program with the excitement after that ended and, meeting more people, new people, and some of those people are actually now on our core team, it gave me a second burst of excitement and energy. But at the same time, I was like what are we. What are we not doing yet? We're starting to build this foundation with climate designers, with the help of, amazing people. And then I was like, what's the next? So I guess what I'm trying to do is carve out what's going on currently, but then thinking about the next step while others support that. And I started to think about some of the bigger topics that I've been talking to with with friends and Rachel and my girlfriend who's in the audience about these bigger headier topics that I feel designers need to know. And some of that was in the party program. We talked about indigenous wisdom. We talked about environmental justice systems thinking, things like that, but even leveling up more, talking about things like capitalism, talking about things like the human narrative that we've been unfortunately sold over the last a hundred plus years. Advertising and, other factors and systems in place. And what does how do we actually do transition to a different economy? This renewable stuff is great and all, but just because we switched to a hundred percent renewables tomorrow, we're still working with this gross in damaging economic system. And so like, all we're going to be doing is renewing the shit that is putting us in this mess. So I want us to really start to think bigger about the topics that I feel we need to start talking about, especially at the intersection of design and climate. And some of you out there know me pretty well and know that I have been listening to punk rock music since I was in middle school. And it really. Shaped me. I've written a number of times about this on my blog, about how it, and instilled in me the idea of questioning and authority. This idea of fighting for causes that you believe in this whole DIY ethos. And so I still listen to that music today. It really does motivate me and there was this really amazing, great band called war on women, out of Baltimore, Maryland, an amazing band. I've seen them live, I think twice. And I'll see them later this year with bed, religion, and be a fucking amazing show. And they released a new album just a few months ago called wonderful hell. And they're a title track. Wonderful hell has some really beautiful lyrics in them. And it's a really great kind of sing along song with your fist in the air and flicking everyone off. And there's a a phrase in there that I go back to. So I'm going quote it now. There's gotta be a better way than giving up and in wallowing let's raise some wonderful, beautiful hell. And don't know, I've just been having that spirit in me the last couple of months now. And so bringing all this up to Sarah and and Rachel, and just, I felt like I wanted to speak up a little bit more and talk bigger and that phrase talk bigger is something that Sarah and I have been using internally to talk about this next. Hello, elevation. Evolution. Is that too much of a strong word, Sarah, with this podcast, like just leveling up the podcast. So anyway that's the backstory of why we're wanting to do this to prototype in a new way and to think about some of the topics that we feel designers need to start thinking of. [00:07:45] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So for me, it really made me think about, I guess what's been on my mind. And when you brought this up to me I merged it with what I've been thinking about, which is the last 50 years of environmental activism in which there has been accomplished major changes and major efficiencies and a lot of really good things, but we're still seeing the rate of change compared with the transformation still needed. It's just not enough. And we're running out of time to make big changes. And so for me, it's been let's not keep saying the same thing that's been being said for 50 years. How can we change the narrative? What do we need to question to initiate deeper changes. And I came across this phrase. Initiate deeper changes by asking deeper questions. And one of the books that I'm reading right now. And so I think this is an opportunity for us to ask deeper questions and have bigger conversations and also to put it out there transparently not polished. We don't have everything all figured out. It's just to have start having those conversations. I think one of our favorite climate scientists, who's also an educator often tells people when they ask what's the most important thing that I can do about climate change right now. And she always says, just start talking about it. So that's what we're doing. And even that is an interesting topic, like why people don't talk about it and what holds us back and why it's scary. And I think we can go for miles on that too, but We did put together a little presentation. We can go into, we got a question already from wait Lindsey. Hi Lindsey. Thanks for joining. She says, Sarah. Now I want to know what book you're reading right now. I am reading designing regenerative cultures by I'm the worst at names and I just had it in front of me designing regenerative cultures by Daniel Wall. [00:09:57] Marc: Daniel and your wall. He's great. He's awesome. So good. Highly recommend whole Danny boy. He's great. Speaking of books, I'm I just started reading lessons more by Jason Hickle who has ties to, I feel really bad. I haven't done my homework on the author. I've just heard that the book is really great from multiple people who is connected in some form or another to extinction rebellion. So less is more from Jason heckles talking about de-growth and capitalism and all that fun stuff that I've been peeking out on lately. [00:10:33] Sarah: Yeah, it's a really good book. You're reading it too, right? I am. I have a whole lot of books in progress. [00:10:42] Marc: I do one at a time. Sarah does [00:10:43] Sarah: 20, I don't, I pick up one book and whatever I happen to be thinking about at the time, I often find a phrase in that book. That's exactly the thing to help me, keep moving forward and then I'll pick up some other books. Can anyone relate? I don't know. I'm a non-linear reader. Another check-in with the chat. The, we got our first spammer. I wonder how common that is. [00:11:09] Marc: 18. Oh, you know what? I think it was one of my high school friends. I invited, what is he selling? Oh, he want, he wants us. Oh, big followers.com. Cheryl buy it. [00:11:21] Sarah: Awesome. Yeah, like we said, this is open to the public it's happening live and in real time we're going to say some things just to try to be a bit provocative or instigating or rebellious. So I fully expect that some people might come in here and be like, I'm anti what we're saying, I guess might be the way to say it. I think if you put climate in your name, you're going to invite some of that. And I don't know. I'm okay with that. I need that full workout [00:11:50] Marc: as long as they're nice and civil and respect. And if they want to jump into zoom and come on screen and have a chat, [00:11:57] Sarah: let's do it. So I invite criticism, I invite feedback and I invite you all to do the same. Let's have open dialogues and conversations. Let's have real raw conversations. Let's say the things that haven't been said or are not being said enough. And also one of the nice things about this new format is we're going to invite more of our senses into the conversation that we may have previously with the podcast. So if you are a visual person, and if you're a designer, I'm going to guess that you probably are a visual person. You might want to watch on Twitch. And then I think afterwards, if we do our technology correctly, we'll have a recording that we can put on the YouTube so that we'll have some visuals to share. Not only just our audio senses, but our visual senses as well. Yeah, of course you can still listen to this on the podcast the regular way, but now you can also. Watch us live and engage in real time or watch us after the fact on the recording. How often will we do this? We don't know yet. I think some of that is up to you is every Twitch session recorded? Yes, I have set it up so that everything will be recorded and we can totally hang out here casually more often. I think one of the nice things about this format is we don't have to do as much prep work in advance. So we might be able to do some of this more often. If it's helpful for you all, for the people in our community for designers who want to make change on this planet. So that we can keep living on it. [00:13:38] Marc: I like how you said that. So nonchalantly all you designers out there who just, want to solve our economic and, ecological breakdown, just hang out. We just [00:13:48] Sarah: hang out with us. Maybe we'll even play video games. [00:13:52] Marc: All right. Now let's move on. Now that you brought up the V word, we should move on. Nope, no video game. Talk on this thing. I won't be able to keep up with you. Yes. [00:14:06] Sarah: Okay. Okay. So let's dive into the topic that we wanted to cover. The thing that we picked for our first topic is along the lines of flipping the narrative and not saying the same thing that we've been saying for the last 50 years. So one of the things that has always graded on mark and me is when we hear the phrase, save the planet. And so let's just dive in on like why that's not the motivation or the message that we think we want to send. And of course, we're putting this out there to be a little bit provocative. Of course, we love this planet and want to keep living on it. But here's the thing. This planet has been through hell and back. It has been in the Haiti on eon when it was first I was going to say invented, but created the earth was 446 degrees Fahrenheit. And that sounds really exact by the way. I say this because there's no roof to how hot it can get, and when it was that hot, the surface was completely molten, melted and toxic, and there was no life on it. And the atmosphere was full of carbon dioxide. There was no oxygen, it was just a completely different. Place. And for those of you who are listening and don't have the visuals, we will describe the visuals to you. So for this one, we have found artist's interpretation of what the Haiti eon might have looked like. And you see a lot of lava big fireball explosions, lightning flashing all over the place. And volcanic eruptions, it looks like some comments and meteors hitting it. Cause we probably didn't have a magnetic shield at that point yet. Not an awesome place to be [00:15:47] Marc: this image reminds me of Lord of the rings and this would be a good time for me to insert a Lord of the rings joke, but I don't know Lord of the rings, [00:15:54] Sarah: so yeah, totally expecting you to have one. [00:15:57] Marc: I've seen like the first movie or two, I don't know. Cool. I know. Thanks. All [00:16:04] Sarah: right. So then the next slide after this planet has been through hell, it's also frozen over many times for millions of years. So we've had many ice ages. In the past 2.4 billion years, we've had I think five and the temperatures of the entire planet I dunno like snowball earth is one of the phrases that they've used really super cold. We're already seeing a comment from cat. She says you changed my own perspective on this terminology, Sarah. I don't use saving the planet anymore as a result. Thank you. Lindsay says my cynical partner loves to fatalistically point out that the planet will be fine. There just won't anymore. Exactly. And it will be fine. Maybe it's yeah, just the point is that this planet, like as a planet, it's been through a hell of a lot more than what we're putting it through right now. It's a little bit hubristic to think that we need to save it, but this comes with a, but so let's go to the next slide. Oh, wait, I forgot to describe it for our audio listeners. It's a picture of the earth as a frozen snowball. And then there's also a chart of the ice ages during the past 2.4 billion years. So you can see how the temperature has oscillated up and down a little bit or a lot of it. So in the next slide we have. Another chart. And it's a chart that shows the evolution of humans over the last 1 million years and below that it shows the temperature of the earth. And what's really interesting about this to me is that you can see that temperature is going up and down over the last 1 million years, because we've been oscillating between what scientists called the glacial periods of the ice age, and then the interglacial where everything thaws and gets warm. And that's because of the orbit, of the earth and things that are way too complicated for me to understand. But what's really striking to me about this graph is over the last million years, there's several different variations on the human species. Put out there by evolution to see which one will And at the top of the graph is a zoomed in factor of that 1 million timescale. And so we can see in each of those short little interglacials, it's highlighted in green in those short spans of time where the earth was not completely frozen. It just so happens that in the last one is when all of human civilization has occurred. So the zoomed in slice at the very right side of the graph of the last 1 million years of earth history is it contains the invention of agriculture, organized agriculture and animal husbandry. It contains building cities. It contains the building of the pyramids, which actually only happened, but what like four or five, four or 5,000 years ago when you start looking at it on the scale, Earth. We're just a little blip or just teeny tiny little blip. So the thing that I want us to think about is human civilization has only ever experienced a tiny range of Earth's changes in climate. So for that entire 10,000 years, the climate has been so stable. And in fact, because the climate has been so stable, it has enabled human society to create agricultural and city-based civilization before that, when it was too in cold or when it was in the process of warming or cooling crazily, like humans lived like everybody else on this planet and traveling around to the pockets of the planet that were habitable habitable to try and survive and find food when the rest of the planets frozen, all that stuff. So it was just, I don't know, like just happened to warm up enough and then stay that way for long enough for us to do all the things that are part of our entire written history and everything that we know. Let's see. We're on the next slide. Go to the one that's not super high Rez or. Yes. So this one is a slide. It's a chart again, but it's only the last 20,000 years. And again, it shows the global temperature. So it shows it rising to that point from the last ice age, from the last glacial period to that stable temperature that we have enjoyed for the last 10,000 years. And you can see that stable temperature staying about the same for 10,000 years including to the point where the great pyramids were built. It's actually starting to trend towards a little cooler and from what I've read that most scientists agree that we would be on the track towards another ice age actually. And then the industrial revolution happens and the temperature goes way up, completely breaking the pattern that we've seen. We earth has experienced for billions of years with our carbon dioxide emissions. So now, and the other thing that it says on this chart is we're at this point where we can choose, all bets are off, the pattern is disrupted and we're at this point where we can choose to bring the temperature back down, or if we do nothing and we just keep doing what we're doing, the temperature has the potential to go way above anything that this planet has seen for, I think a three or 4 billion years. And that means that all of the life that has evolved on this planet, along with us over the last three or 4 billion years, we're all more adapted to. This cold to relatively mild, somewhat warm, that range of temperatures. And so that baseline of stability is what scientists use to measure the rate of change or the amount of change. When you hear things like 1.5 degrees Celsius, or two degrees Celsius above pre-industrial averages. That baseline is what they're talking about. So I just say on the text here on the slide, since the industrial revolution, we've built cities and technology based on an assumed stable climate, while releasing enough carbon dioxide and methane into the atmosphere to force a rapidly heating climate. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. [00:23:11] Marc: Yeah. Preaching to the choir. [00:23:16] Sarah: So next slide. What that means is our civilization has not been designed for the climate or creating it. That's another way of saying that the problem stating the problem. So this is a picture of one of the streetcar power cables in Portland. It melted, which shut down train service during the heat wave that they had a few days ago, a week ago or whatever. That's just an example of one of the many failures and infrastructure that we're starting to see as temperatures rise way above that range that we've enjoyed for the last 10,000 years. [00:24:07] Marc: Yeah. And to just add this quick little comment about the latest news here in the U S about this, infrastructure bill and, trying to, to. To squeeze some climate change stuff in there, as opposed to calling it out specifically. But you know my question about that, and of course I need to do more research. I've been a little busy lately, but with that infrastructure bill, where's that money going? Are we rebuilding from the ground up? Are we putting band-aids on existing infrastructure because we're not taking this as serious as we need to. What's the money being used for how's it been allocated who says, who has a say in where that money goes? Yeah, I just want to, the last couple of slides we could have easily have made a whole podcast episode on, that previous chart, the chart before that. So this is really exciting to see how things are starting to connect with one another. [00:24:58] Sarah: Yeah. And Rachel in the. Shattered out green new deal. And absolutely I think the green new deal has come under a lot of criticism because it's very wide, widespread and expensive. And the reason it is so widespread and expensive is because climate touches everything and it's this infrastructure that we've been built on and it's trying to put new infrastructure in place that supports life. So yeah, it's, it has to be wide, wide sweeping broad, and yes, it's going to be expensive and very, to comment it again, the civilian climate Corp will be an incredible step forward. Yes. I have not read the news in like weeks because I've had my nose in these five different books. So like, how's that going? Where is it? What's the story? What's the status? Is everything moving forward, the way that it should be probably slower than we want, but still good. Or what's going on. [00:25:57] Marc: Yeah. I've been a little busy myself, but what I've gathered from snippets it's not as fast as we want. It's not as much as we want. Is it even exactly what we need? These are big questions that people are asking that I've been catching here and there. So [00:26:14] Sarah: Rachel says yes, more representatives are getting on board. I'm just overjoyed that finally we have a government in place that's taking climate seriously, absolutely refreshing step in the right direction. But yeah it's frustrating when we understand the scope of what needs to change and how quickly we need to change it. So that's definitely one of the things that we hope to talk about. During this new format of our podcast. Yeah. Cause it's slow moving. Yes. Some great comments in the chat. So next slide, I think, is more I'm preaching to the choir, but you all know this. We have to redesign our way of life to cooperate and evolve with the natural world we live in, or we join the 99.9% of species that have gone extinct on this planet. And for those of you just listening along there is a photo here of some really nice, interesting looking renderings of some of the species that have come and gone before. Oh gosh, it's too small for me to read, but some really cool looking no longer with us animals. And I should note that when we join, if we joined the 99.9% of species that have gone extinct on this planet, we will take everything else on this planet with us, because we are at the top of the food chain. And that's just pretty shitty. [00:27:55] Marc: Yeah. It's not as if the humans will just disappear and everything else will stay it's that we're taking everything down. It's like we're falling and we're just grabbing it. So it's catch her fall and it's all coming down. I do want to focus on that first half of this I really was thinking about this reading it earlier, I think, how do we get to that point? How do we reconnect with nature and all the living species, that make up our world, right? It wasn't too long ago that we're connected. To nature. We were connected. We were working on the lands. We were, using it in more productive regenerative ways, it was just really the last two, 300 years with the rise of okay, and industrial revolution and all that, that we started to really, step back and see nature in a very different way where we saw it for us as opposed to a part of us. And although with our current global economic system in place, it makes it very easy to separate ourselves because, we are now living in these buildings. We are now driving three ton vehicles. We're now doing all these different things that for many millennia with our ancestors never had to do. And so it's crazy to me how we're just, we're not so far into this. And like the previous charts, there were not so far in the grand scheme of things and our existence as a species, but wow. Like how quick did we frickin forget everything? Yes, we have our prevalent primal instincts, those who's who jumped on at the start. Sarah and I were talking about, public speaking. And then why would we have that fear of the number one fear in humans? Anyway, yes. We still have those criminal instincts, but beyond that It's convenience. It's comfort. I get it. I much prefer to sleep on a soft bed as opposed to, the hard ground or whatever in the elements and, trying to run away from a Mastodon, who's trying to eat me, like I like my life as is, I think there's been a lot of great innovations and and advancements as the species, but holy shit, man, we're S we're too smart for our own good, God damn we can not to say I'm a I'm into the space, travel stuff. That's another podcast. But like the fact that we can build machines to put people up there and bring them down safely, the fact that we can cure diseases, the fact that we can connect billions of people using these, glass and plastic and metal that we have in our hands every day. Like we can do some cool fucking shit. But hello, how do we get back to how we used to live and be in harmony with one another and everything on it, on the planet. So anyway another topic, [00:30:23] Sarah: this is so smart and yet really dumb at the same time. That's exactly right. So that's what we hope to untangle in this new format, I think. And I'm really happy that Kelly picked up on the cooperate and evolve phrase in that. So what I'm, I guess what we're getting at here is instead of, like I said earlier, that phrase save the planet that really just graded on me and then Mark's like yummy too. And so we're like, okay, how do we rephrase that? Or what is it that we actually are trying to do? Because I think looking at this as humans saving the planet it just continues to reinforce that idea that we are separate from all of it [00:31:11] Marc: and superior, just, you said a few minutes ago that, the reason why everything's going to go down when we go down is because we're on the top of the food chain. Why should we be at the top of the food chain? So how do we realign our place in this living ecosystem so that we don't act as if it's all for us, but that we are contributing to this whole system and keeping that balance from ever from never tilting off balance. [00:31:36] Sarah: Correct. Not separate. And in fact, I think we need to maybe rethink the idea of a food chain. It's not really a chain and we're not on the top of it, even though I didn't say that. It's a system and we're part of it and we need to figure out. How to make our part of it matter to the system and add value to the system and help the system thrive. Or that's still is going to reset. It's going to collapse and it's going to start over with that. [00:32:02] Marc: Sarah, if you haven't been paying attention, we've been living in this global pandemic for the last year and a half, I think we jolted nature. I think it, it took it, we pushed it enough to where it gave us a big, not even an earthquake, but a fucking planet quake. This was like a, and Hey, y'all this isn't cool. Here's what you get for fucking shit up. [00:32:21] Sarah: What's the beginning of that collapse looks like we are living it. [00:32:25] Marc: So can this be what we're currently experiencing this global pandemic and I'm not trying to belittle this whole thing. It's really shitty. And I can't, I every so often man, I can't believe I'm living through a pandemic. Isn't it crazy? We all are obviously, but yeah. I I really hope that this is a shock in the system and this is if we don't, real things in this is nothing. Exactly. This is this is the appetizer, the [00:32:49] Sarah: beginning. So yeah, let's go ahead and go to the next slide because I don't want to dwell too much on how shitty everything is. You've been with a global pandemic and all of the heat waves and the wildfires and the floods and everything that is going on right now, all over the globe. I still want to be able to say that this moment in time presents a unique opportunity, especially for people like us designers, strategists, planners, people who can look at systems for what they are and plan something new. I believe it was Washington state, governor Jay Inslee, who said we are the first generation to feel the impact of climate change and the last generation that can do something about it. And that's just a brilliant ly worded way to say it because this decade right now, the next 10 years, We are at that absolute last, there's a sign on the road. There's a fork in the road and there's a sign that says last exit we're right there. And I guess all the previous exit signs, if we're going to keep with that analogy when we saw those, we being the grand, we of humanity I love the analogies that come to my brain as I'm coming up with them. As we saw each of those, you could take this exit and, you could implement this policy and have a slow, gradual transition. We were like, I'm gonna wait. I'm gonna wait it out. I don't really have to pee that bad. I'm going to see if there's another rest, stop coming up. And now we're finally in the thick of it where we're feeling the effects [00:34:37] Marc: got to [00:34:37] Sarah: piss. Now we really have to pee. Like we can not hold it any longer. So in a way, feeling the effects and having the horrific tragedies that are happening with the fires and the pandemic and the disease and the floods and the heat waves. Must I go on the feeling of those, the jolt that is giving us is also a catalyst for change. So I have no doubt that this next decade is not going to be business as usual. There's no option to just keep going the way that we have, like we're either going to piss our pants or we're going to get off at this exit. Find a clean bathroom and have a more graceful exit. How's that? Did I bring that analogy [00:35:31] Marc: home, a clean bathroom only you have to go into a whole foods or something. [00:35:40] Sarah: So yeah, let's get into the not doom and gloom, but the doom and bloom portion of our segment this evening. So according to the experts in many of the books that mark and I have been reading and articles and PDFs and everything out there, there is still a chance. And every time I talk about this, I imagine Jim Carrey in dumb and dumber talking to his crush. And she's like the chances of me ever dating you are like a million to one. And he's so you're saying I have a chance classic kinda where we're at right now, but we still have a chance. We can still transform our civilization ending our reliance on fossil fuels, transitioning to renewable energy, but we have to make it a massive, fast, fair, just equitable transition. All of the things in a very short amount of time. How do we do that? How the heck do we do that? So some of the things that I have on the slide here for those of the people listening at home one of them is the rewiring America field manual. It's a short, readable, straightforward, little PDF that you can download for free from the rewiring America website written by Saul Griffith. He went through and he crunched all the numbers for the us. And he details exactly what needs to be done to transition off of fossil fuels in the next, I think 10 or 15 years, he puts it up and he ha he knows how much it's going to cost. And he knows what policies need to be put in place. And it's awesome. And I highly recommend reading it. The other one that we have on there is less, is more like mark mentioned early or one that we are reading. How's that. Long section on things that we need to rethink about our world and things that we need to implement as solutions or new ways of working. I included the upcycle in here from the authors of cradle to cradle. This is, embracing circular design and regenerative design and how to redesign our products and our processes so that they are, like we said, cooperating and evolving with nature. And I have yet to read this, but it's on my list climate, the new story by Charles Eisenstein. Mark says, it's good. That's what I got. There's so many books and experts out there talking about the solutions. This is just a short sampling of some of the things that have been top of mind lately. [00:38:28] Marc: Yeah. I'm wanting to acknowledge too, that, a lot of the books here, actually, all the books here are written by CIS white men. And who are we not listening to, are we not reading? Who are we not paying attention to? And so we're, one of the many things that we're trying to do with climate designers is to create, resources that really do help our members. And having a book list and other resources out there for you all is something that we want to do. But yeah, please share with us others as well. I know there's definitely, women and indigenous authors out there Dr. Anita Sanchez joined us during the party program and, she has some great writing talking about indigenous wisdom and in the 21st century. And yeah. Let us know, what are you reading? What are you watching? We're all ears and we'll add it to our resources. [00:39:14] Sarah: Yes. Kat mentioned all, we can save another one on my list. That is mostly women it's short essays by women. All we can save truth, courage and solutions for the climate crisis by Ayana Elizabeth Johnson and Katherine K. Wilkinson. [00:39:32] Marc: Yeah. On my list too, we just need to have reading days, [00:39:36] Sarah: It's another topic. Okay. Back to the charts and graphs for a second, this is what we're looking at. For those of you at home, I'll describe it in a second. If we succeed over the next 10 years and doing what we need to do, we can bring global temperatures back down in the next 20 to 30 years and avoid complete catastrophic climate breakdown. So there's a sort of a little small snippet of a graph from the on roads simulator. I know cat in the audience is taking their online training, which I'm super excited to hear more about in the simulator. You can go in and tweak a bunch of levers, so you can see can I basically, can I bring temperatures back down by simply. Adding a carbon tax. Can I bring temperatures back down by simply planting more trees? Can I bring temperatures back down, through a bunch of other things, they have a bunch of other levers and what you can see from all of that is if we do absolutely nothing, what we're looking at is a rise in temperature. And I'm not that interested in the year 2100. I do plan to be alive through 2050, but I doubt I will make it to 2100. I would be over 120 years old at that point. So I doubt I'm going to make it that far. So I don't care about 2100. I knew I do care, but it's just harder for me to wrap my brain around that. And so I look at this as like the next 20 to 30 years, what can we expect? So if we do nothing right now, we're at 1.2 degrees above that baseline of stability that we've enjoyed for the last 10,000 years. One degree Celsius. It doesn't sound like very much, but that's global average. And so it takes a lot to heat up the earth. We're at 1.2 right now in the way that I had it described to me that really made it hit home to me is every 10th of a degree. Is enormous weather changes and disruptions and climate patterns. So all the things that we were talking about earlier with, the heat waves and the pandemic and the floods and the wildfires, that's at 1.2 degrees of warming. And so 1.3 is going to be even more of that. More of the same 1.4 is going to be even more of that, more of the same. And so in this graph, you can see that if we do absolutely everything we can, we're still going to go up a little over the next 10 to 20 years. I think if I'm reading it but we are working really hard to cap it at 1.5 and not go any higher because the entire planet really hasn't seen temperatures of over two degrees in more than three or 4 billion years. Like I said, We don't exactly know what will happen, but what we do know is all the things that are currently happening today will keep happening and will happen even more. So every 10th of a degree that we go up. So I don't want to see it go higher than 1.2, 1.2 is not acceptable. 1.2 is where we are now and where we are now is not. Okay. So I don't want to hear about two degrees. I don't want to tell about 2100. I want to talk about what we can do to bring the temperatures down right now. And the fact of the matter is the climate system moves slowly. It's a big freaking planet, and we're going to have to put in a whole lot of hard work and a whole lot of effort over the next decade to get real change in our systems by 2030, and check back with me in 2030, because if policies and stuff haven't changed and things haven't been put in place, I'm going to be talking about. Adaptation and resilience and how to move forward in a very chaotic world. But I don't want to have that conversation right now because we still have a chance, [00:43:53] Marc: right? Yeah. There's a chart that I saved. I took a screenshot, it was on Twitter. It was from last summer, 2020 summer of 2020. And, Every summer is the hottest summer had a chart, tenure chart, a line graph. And it had at the average temperature per summer was getting higher and higher. And the headline was of course, 20, 20 hottest year on record in the last decade. And then the woman who posted it was like, or if you look at it this way, 20, 20, the coldest summer in the, in the next decade. It's like what you were saying one 10th of a degree can totally it's just, this is not going away anytime soon. [00:44:30] Sarah: I left San Francisco in October, November of 2019, and I remember walking outside on nice sunny days. I think I said this to you a few times when we would go have lunch. I'd be like, oh, it's so nice out. This is the last of the nice days, [00:44:53] Marc: little [00:44:53] Sarah: cynical. I know, but this is the new normal exactly. Cat this like when we hear about temperature breaking records or the hottest temperature ever recorded, blah, blah, blah. This is the new normal, this is the new baseline for at least the next 10 years. And like I said, then I hope to see the temperatures coming back down. If we do a lot of work and we do it well. So let's talk about what needs to get done. Oh, for the viewers who are not viewers, the listeners at home, I forgot to say that slide also had a road. Is Rosie the Riveter. We can do it from world war two because visual propaganda and imagery. Can go a long way and that's where we come in as designers sometimes. Okay. So the next slide is about what stands in our way. Why aren't we moving forward? And I think the biggest thing that stands in our way right now is we need the political and societal will to make the necessary changes. So there's a picture here of a few different things in unearthed, which is a publication online by green peace, I believe is that right? My brain is full of holes like Swiss cheats, but unearthed, just unearthed very fiery accusatory report where some of their journalists dressed up as. Lobbyists or fuel investors or something and have meetings with the fossil fuel executives or lobbyists. I'm sorry, I don't have the detailed right in front of me, but anyway, they went under cover and they had some conversations and got these Exxon executives, fossil fuel executives to blatantly say that they covered up and denied valid climate science and delayed climate action and they knew it. [00:46:54] Marc: And that they're currently as always have been working against. Any big change. Yeah. Look into it folks. I just type in I think the guardian was the one that broke it. If I'm not mistaken and then it got picked up by all these other blogs of course, but yeah, just type in Exxon head hunters. Yeah. Kat I think Lindsey. Yeah, you're right. They were head hunters. I watched the video and it was so fucking infuriating, just hearing this guy talk as if this was just part of the good part of the job, and BD, [00:47:22] Sarah: so yeah, they have been, clearly actively working in our government as a lobbyist to prevent change and they have a lot of money and they fund a lot of our politicians. So there's, political will to do what they want. And when there's, 50 something percent of the voting population does not agree with the other 50 something percent. It is really hard to get the politicians to do anything. It's a standstill. So we need to build the political and societal. We'll tell our politicians and representatives that what we're currently experiencing is not okay. One of the other images that I have on the side is someone leaked marketing materials from BP. One of them says in the headline obtaining a social license to operate a challenge for the industry. This idea of a social license to operate is something that they are clearly aware of. So like they know that it needs to be socially acceptable to burn fossil fuels for them to have a viable. That's what that means. The one on the top bottom lower right. Is another lead marketing material from, I believe also BP, although it looks like the colors of Exxon Rochelle. Anyway, it says, how do we regenerate this generation's view of oil and gas? So many things about that headline make me laugh. They did a poll of us consumers and young people about to join the workforce. And they are basically presenting this as a huge recruiting challenge, which I think is awesome. Oil and gas companies are going to, they know this and they've made nice looking, marketing materials, talking about it. They are going to run into a challenge recruiting workers from. This generation, the young generation. And I'm like, hell yeah. Because they're gross, but that who wants to work there, they're gross. And because our younger generation has principles and has their eyes open and knows what's going on. [00:49:36] Marc: And we've been talking about this for years, Sarah, I remember us having more conversations walking in between lunch and stuff at a coworking space about, how hard it is for these companies that are damaging the planet, not just fossil fuel, but any other companies and within any other industry, how hard it is for them to find young talent, because younger people are becoming more and more aware of this issue. And so what happens to these large companies, are they going to offer more money, more perks, benefits, all that stuff, or. And if not, they can't find anyone they're just going to crumble or do they shift into something more productive? Do they reinvent themselves? I don't know. Like it's going to be interesting to watch, a lot of these companies that are destroying this planet and many different ways are, the majority of them are, behemoths they've been around for many decades. And so are they just going to completely shift everything? I don't know. [00:50:32] Sarah: Rachel picked up on the fact that they used the word regenerate. That's another one of the things that makes me laugh so much about this headline. They're already starting to try to shift their image by co-opting the language of the young people and the things that they care [00:50:50] Marc: about. I just don't think the copywriter looked up the definition of regenerate. [00:50:56] Sarah: Absolutely. 100% positive that they use. [00:50:59] Marc: Oh, I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. Of course they did. Of course they did. They're probably trolling sunrise movement and [00:51:08] Sarah: that's why they use black and yellow. You're right. [00:51:10] Marc: Seriously. They're making the shit look cool to attract these young people, yeah. Yeah, man, they're stuck in these organizations. They want to, I don't, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a handful of influencers that are being paid by these folks. Yeah, no, [00:51:25] Sarah: totally is the a little bit off topic, not on the topic of recruiting, but the PR and ad campaigns by the fossil fuel industry. Recently, they have been using social media. They have been paying social media influencers. They're all over that stuff. They are very good at obtaining that social license to operate through our media channels. They've been doing it for decades. They're experts. Yeah. And so that, like seeing them shift thing that you talked about, they are absolutely promoting that they're shifting and they talk about it like they're shifting and they might spend. 80 to 90% of their PR and marketing on talking about how much they're shifting to renewables and research and development into stuff. But when you look at how much of their actual operating money they're spending, it does not correlate with how much of the PR they're talking about it. Totally. [00:52:19] Marc: Yeah. And there's definitely proof out there that supports that. Yeah. Jeez. So I want to bring up this, and we're just about wrapping up with the presentation you all. Just to let you know, one quick thing, and I think we'll get more into this in feature podcasts, for me, it's when I read stuff like this and when Sarah and I have these types of conversations, my mind always goes to, why does it have. Be where all the onus is on us as individuals just living our normal lives in a system that have had, that has been designed by these people to get what they want and leave us with crumbles, right? Like why are we not fucking going upstream, pounding on these companies, doors, raising fucking hell to get them to actually change or to take them down. Like it's in front of us, everyone hello, like where's the outrage. Where's the I'm just, so this is so I won't get more into it. Cause I know we have other things we want to wrap up the presentation, but this is the thing that really gets me out of this whole climate conversation is that one thing, and how do we address that as designers? I don't know. [00:53:31] Sarah: It's a interesting being, where is the, [00:53:35] Marc: why are we not. Realizing the bigger picture and the real enemy here. Why are we not taking on these larger companies and questioning our economic systems? Why are we not domaining that much change? Like I know to bring the tote bag, I know to walk more and drive less, whatever don't talk to me about, not using another fucking straw. Like I want to go after the, these guys, like that's the stuff, why where's the pissed off Innes in everyone about this? Like it's all in front of us. So that's what I'm talking about. But again, we'll get more into it a bit later. I know we're about wrapping up here. [00:54:11] Sarah: Yep. No, absolutely. I think that is what we're trying to do here is figure out I guess we can go to the next slide because it's getting to that call to action. Like how do we remove the societal license to operate from these people and get them. What is causing the most harm. So the next slide is talking about what are the necessary changes, and this is not a complete list. There's a list on here that describe some of the most immediate, practical policy driven things. Most of it, not all of it, but a lot of it is from the rewiring America handbook. Some of it is from less is more, but I'll read it really quickly for those that are just listening, a managed and fair and just transition from fossil fuels to renewables. The end of fossil fuel subsidies. It's ridiculous to me that our tax dollars are still subsidizing fossil fuels. Like what? No new permits for fossil fuels. We're still starting new. Fossil fuel drilling and exploration projects in 2021 year of our Lord, whatever [00:55:21] Marc: and Biden as our president, [00:55:25] Sarah: you were seeing a lot of pledges for net zero by 2050. We need to be talking about real zero by 20 30, 20 31. Part of that is government loans to improve housing. So in rewiring America, Saul Griffith talks a lot about how the government has in the past. There's a precedent for this giving low interest loans to homeowners to rebuild the infrastructure of the home, to get off the grid, whether it's solar panels or replacing the furnace or getting a new stove or whatever you need to do that can be government assisted. The end of planned obsolescence. So in the design of our devices, they're not designed to be repaired. They're designed to be replaced, and that is very intensive of our resources and it doesn't make much sense giving land back to indigenous people. The rapid buildup of renewable energy infrastructure, that is something that we are going to need government policy and funding to, you know, Biden's whole campaign for election was on this, the creation of millions of new clean jobs. We need to stop cutting down our trees in the Amazon and other places we need to end deforestation. It is just compounding the problem. It doesn't make any sense. We need solar panels on every roof. We need to electrify. All of our industries, so that then that electricity can be run by renewable energy. So anything that runs on liquid fuel or coal or even wood pellets, natural gas is still gas. And we need to subsidize regenerative agriculture. That's already happening at least in California. It needs to be happening a whole lot more where the government is funding farmers to adopt climate friendly agriculture policies that reduce carbon dioxide emissions and take it out of the air instead of the opposite. So that's just a short list of things off the top of my head. [00:57:30] Marc: Yeah. And I want to make a note that all of these are very practical and we need to do these things right. And this is where designers can come in, where we can support those companies, those initiatives, those projects, solutions to make sure. They are so successful that they are doing their part too, bring our temperature down, like going back to some of those charts. Like we need all designers within all these different industries to really step up and make sure that they, give everything they got. So that these companies and these new industries can be the most successful. But again, though, building all of this on a capitalistic system just doesn't make sense. And so what's missing from this list is the idea of de-growth the idea of coming up with a new economic system. Again, as human beings, I've listed a few things minutes ago about us being so creative, we can put people in space, we can cure diseases. We can come up with a new economic system. Like I think the thing that we always forget is that capitalism is only 500 years old. It hasn't always been around. There's been other economic system some better, a lot better actually. And why not revisit it, some of those or come up with new ones. I have a lot of friends in the bay area that are in, in the, new economic space, like they're coming up with what we could be living under. And I think what's missing from this list in this larger conversation that I'm excited to talk more about is this idea of de-growth right. I'm not going to, maybe I should get a bit more, anarchists. I've been holding my breath always back for many years, sometimes shit needs to be said. And as Sarah mentioned at the start of the, some things might, rub wrong way, but I don't know, not to say that we know the answers, not to say that what comes out of our mouth. It is right, but it's something right. And one other thing that's also missing from this list as well is, the idea of who are we as a species, I feel like we need to take this time, maybe even during COVID I would hope to rewrite our human narrative, like, how are we showing up? On this planet, how are we showing up as a species that is much more advanced than a lot of other species? That's a gift, what a gift that we have that we are from all of these millions and billions of combinations that just so happened to happen over fucking millions of years has developed us in our lives right now and all the amazing things that we have in front of us, what a beautiful gift. And so I think what we need to really start to do also is really rewrite our human narrative to get away from this idea of individualistic mindsets and my mind, and, the American dream and climbing the corporate ladder or whatever and start to think about where we should really put our values, valuing purpose, a sense of community, valuing ourselves. And I want to bring up a few comments from iHeart, Rachel. She's been as always dropping math knowledge. She mentioned a few minutes ago, this is why we need to destroy capitalism, consumerism and be more collective and community focused in our ways. Definitely. You said something else just below that maybe that was it. Oh, actually exactly. [01:00:35] Sarah: It was too much to be outraged. [01:00:38] Marc: So going back to my comment about why are we not fucking, pounding on these doors? Yeah. I heard Rachel like people by design, right? Yeah. People are being worked to death. So that they can't do anything, but work a second job, a third job just to put food on the table. And so it's a distraction and I feel like this also goes into what I always get them confused either BP or shell. I think it's BP that created the carbon footprint shit, right? Yeah. That is a distraction people. I don't, Hey, if you're in the carbon footprint app, industry, go for it. I support you. I'm not interested in that. Honestly, as a person. I, yes, I care about the impact I have on the planet, my carbon footprint. Totally. I try to be mindful of how I live and all that stuff. Check check, all the boxes checked off. But again, that was put out by an organization by company purposely to distract you from the shit that they're doing, putting the onus on us. And for me, that's fucking bullshit. [01:01:38] Sarah: That is, [01:01:40] Marc: and these are signs. They know exactly what re what they're doing, but again, though, I'm going to go back to my thought and we can finish up. But, I really do feel like, outside of the practical stuff, outside of capitalism, all that stuff, I feel there's also just as much work, if not more work on how we need to view ourselves, not only within ourselves with each other and within this planet. And I feel like we can do all this stuff, we can just switch to renewables. We can do all the things that would keep us in a bit more of a, in an, somewhat thriving world. Even though things are gonna look bad for a while, but what's the next fuck up that we're going to create as human beings, if we don't focus on ourselves, so I don't know. So again, another topic for later, but just something that I've also been thinking about lately. [01:02:24] Sarah: Yeah. Kelly from Boston said most, can't see the big picture. P S that's also by design. We are educated to not be able to see the big picture and that's on purpose. [01:02:40] Marc: Oh. And don't get me started on why do you think alcohol is legal? Why do you think, some of these drugs and foods that suppress are abundant, big pharma, they are, they're profiting off of our sickness and they're profiting. Dumbing down us so that we don't see that big picture. So again, a whole nother topic that I think about often we'll talk about it later, but it's all been by design. [01:03:07] Sarah: I'm seeing a lot of people saying again, the chat. Clearly we have a lot to talk about as we keep [01:03:13] Marc: going and, as we're wrapping up, we're just over an hour. So thank you all for sticking around. Didn't really know how long we were going to go. And maybe this is a good time to wrap up because we plan on talking about this stuff often, we're not trying to. Most of us and, we're all about, optimism and positivity and all that, lovey-dovey stuff. So we're not trying to make this into the opposite of that. The doom and gloom stuff. At times, we do need to talk about this stuff though. Like we need to have that real talk. And so we're gonna weave both of, both the optimistic stuff and the real shit. That is the stuff that we need to be addressing, because that's the stuff that's making the doom and gloom. So we can't just, think about sunshine and rainbows all fucking day. Like we need to also talk about our current and previous actions and things like that, so that we can acknowledge that stuff and recognize it and learn from those mistakes and then apply it, or maybe not apply it in the present moment and into the future. [01:04:07] Sarah: Yeah. So I think just to wrap it all up in one shiny bow for this talk today we'll end it on the next slide. Which is instead of talking about how we humans need to come into the rescue and save the planet, let's focus our energy as creatives, as designers, when we're putting messages out into the world about this, the task right in front of us is to remove the biggest block, to make the biggest change that we need to make in the time that we want to make it. And so that is let's focus on directing all our creativity towards uniting societies will. So however that looks to you as creatives, we might make campaigns, we might make slogans, we might make posters. We might make t-shirts. We might make products with brands, with messages that are promoting an image of an ideal world, that we're all building. Let's try and do everything that we do for the purpose of getting everybody on the same page and that. Building up to a rapid and fair and just full-scale transition to a zero carbon clean, renewable energy. And there's a lot more that needs to be done. But if we can get everybody going, if we can figure out what it is, it's not save the planet. I don't think it's, there is no planet B, although that one's really cute. I like it. All the things that have been said already I don't know that they're working. I don't see it. So we keep, we need to keep experimenting. We need to keep trying and we need to figure out what's the thing. That's going to get everybody on the same page because we are definitely not United. We are bickering. Within each other's groups and against each other. And we need to be sending a United message and get us all on the same page for the work that needs to be done in the amount of time that needs to get done. It's very urgent and it's very important that we all start doing this in this decade. [01:06:22] Marc: Yes. [01:06:23] Sarah: Like mark said I'm surprised that we have been talking for over an hour. We clearly have a lot to say I think it might be worth us doing this if we can maybe weekly. We were talking a little bit beforehand if we should be doing this monthly or more often, I think we have a lot of things to say, so we should probably be doing it more often. It's a much more casual format. I'm actually curious to hear from you all in the chat is this amount of interaction. Okay. We have mark and me on screen and then you through text chat, is that, should we bring you into the zoom? Like I think the thing that I worry about is the more people who are speaking the longer, this thing will go and we don't have time to just sit in front of our computers all the time, but we definitely have a lot to talk about. I can tell. I'm seeing a lot of yeses in the chat. Cat loves this format. Carly. Hi, Textless. Fine. I think. Okay, cool. Cool. [01:07:35] Marc: We can always just follow up too. Most of these are our core team members and chapter leaders who are all freaking amazing. So thank you all for joining and hanging out. And for those that we don't know, thank you for joining and hanging out and for not text bombing us. [01:07:54] Sarah: Yeah. Keep it small. Maybe join, maybe have two other people join in. Yeah. I've I have a dream of bringing in somebody who's an expert in science or evolution or something. And letting me just ask them eight year old questions okay. But why. But [01:08:16] Marc: we are actually and search for. I don't know, I just made up this phrase before this podcast. I was talking to Sarah about this. Maybe we have a an internal climate or resident climate science resident with climate designers, they're our go-to person for all this stuff. And it'd be great to have, people with a personality who can like, have fun with this and explain it in fun ways and interesting ways and simple ways. So if any of, I really love the work from a man I'm blanking on his name. It'll come to me in a minute, but the climate town guy on YouTube, if you don't know him, go to YouTube and search climate town we've been chatting on IgG. So hopefully he'll maybe come and do one of these with us, but I would love to have someone who can just roll with us and bring that. Stuff to the conversation in ways that would benefit our members. [01:09:04] Sarah: Yeah. And Rachel's calling out variety and diversity is nice too. So we're always very conscious of that. Maybe not another ASIS hat, white dude, even though he's a climate scientist, maybe. Sure. [01:09:16] Marc: Of course. So that's why I'm asking if any other people let us know. [01:09:20] Sarah: And also Kelly suggests someone who knows a lot about the green new deal. I was thinking someone who knows a lot about life sciences and evolution or DNA and viruses or something. I dunno, whatever we are, we're going to talk about economies. I don't necessarily think that we know what is the right economy. I think we're going to need to invent something new. So we probably should bring in some people who know things about different kinds of economy. [01:09:47] Marc: I know a few people. Yeah. Cool, cool. [01:09:52] Sarah: I'm seeing lots of yeses in the chat, so that'd be cool. Great. [01:09:56] Marc: All right. Should we wrap up, sir? I don't want to keep folks. Yeah. [01:10:00] Sarah: Yeah. So an hour and 22 minutes, thank you so much for hanging out with us and we will edit this down and release it on our podcast at some point TBD, if the YouTube will just be straight up recording or if that will be edited as well. I'm not sure. But yeah, if you have any feedback that you want to send us an email, please do that too. Like the length the content, the format, something that we should cover. Do you have any questions that you want us to talk about for an hour? We could pr

Jamie is a technical SEO best known for taming JavaScript frameworks like Angular and React, helping websites share information with humans by improving how search engines crawl, render, and index. In this week's episode, Jamie discusses ethics and disinformation surrounding not just SEO but the internet as a whole, covering topics such as who's responsible, why it's an issue, ways to tackle these challenges and much more. We also find out what inspires Jamie, challenges she has faced as a women in the industry and what empowers her to be the brilliant women she is today. Where to find Jamie Twitter: https://twitter.com/jammer_volts LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-indigo/ Website: https://not-a-robot.com/ --- Transcript Sarah: Hello, and a very warm welcome to the Women in Tech SEO podcast, where your hosts are myself, Sarah McDowell, podcaster, and SEO content executive at Holland and Barrett. And they absolutely wonderful, Areej AbuAli, who is an SEO Consultant and founder of Women in Tech SEO. WTSPodcast is your weekly podcast for all things SEO related guest, starring brilliant women in the industry.  Hello! How are we doing? Areej: Yeah. Good. Thanks. Super excited to be here today. Sarah: Yes. It's the first one. How are you feeling about it? Areej: Yeah, I'm feeling good. I'm really excited. I'm in great company. I've got you. I've got Jamie. So looking forward to it. Sarah: Ah, there you go. You've done like a subtle little hint there about introducing our first guest on the show. So yes, we have with this for our very first Women in Tech SEO podcast, Jamie Indigo, who is a technical SEO best known for teaming unruly JavaScript frameworks like angular and react. She helps websites share information with humans by improving how search engines crawl, render and index. A very warm welcome to the show Jamie! Jamie: Thank you so much. It's an absolute pleasure to be here with two of my favorite humans, part of my favorite community. Areej: It's so good to have you, Jamie. I'm sure that a lot of people who are listening already know a lot about you and about how awesome you are, but we would love to hear a little bit about you from you. Jamie: Oh, me for me. Well, that's exciting. Well, I'm not a robot, but I speak bots and that's pretty important. Because my focus is as an SEO so niche that I don't understand how rankings work and I'm too afraid to ask, but really it's focusing on the rendering process. Everything from how Googlebot fetches content to, you know, response codes, we're giving a look at the log files and see where those resource requests are going. And when it goes into the web rendering engine, how is that executed? Where the contents available at two, we have a whole sneaky set of your eyes that no one expected to exist. The cannibalize, our world. You'd be surprised a lot of cannibals heading out there. Sarah: Wonderful, wonderful. Something we used to do with SEO SAS was with each of our guests. We do like a quick fire round of silly questions. How are you feeling about that?  Jamie: I love silly questions. Yay.  Sarah: Okay. So there's six in total and I literally just want you to like clear your mind and just answer the first answer that comes to your head.  All right, let's do this question. Number one. Can you share food? Jamie: Yes. Sarah: Something that spiky Jamie: Porcupine. Sarah: They are very spiky. Are you a tidy person?  Jamie: Absolutely not.  Sarah: Ah, they say the best creative people are untidy. I swear. I've read that somewhere. When coming in, do you stay within the lines? Jamie: Hm, no. I'm a big fan of coloring books, and that inherently involves some new lines. Sarah: And final question if it's a hot day, what drink are you craving?  Jamie: Oh, water. Sarah: Just water?  Jamie: Yeah, I want to stay hydrated. Sarah: You don't want anything in your water? Like a bit of lime or sparkling...

My name is Sarah Chapman. I’ve been married for almost 20 years to my husband, Trent, together we have 5 children and live in Lehi, Utah. I am an author of two books, “MindStrength for Women” and “Underneath it all.....You’re Naked” Both of these books were written after a very hard period of time in life. One was about my physical journey to coming back to myself and the other is my sexuality journey of overcoming my judgment about sex to becoming more curious. I went about teaching women about sexual health for 2 years and mainly surrounding the female sexual response cycle. I taught women that you can’t find freedom in your understanding of your sexuality until you have overcome the deep rooted beliefs about sex. I found my own freedom from it that is why I wrote a book about it. Now my focus is on creating a community of women where we come together weekly to share the physical, mental and sexual aspects of our lives and have meaningful discussions with a workbook followed by an exercise class. Because movement creates emotion. You can find me: Instagram : @mindstrength.for.women MindStrength for Women Facebook Group Email: sarah@mindstrengthmentor.com   Full Transcript:  00:00 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.   [music]   00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. On today’s episode we have Sarah Chapman, who is an author; and we’re excited to review her book with her today and kinda learn her journey to getting to this book. Sarah, welcome to the show.   00:44 Sarah: Thank you for having me, Daniel. I appreciate this, it’s really exciting.   00:48 Daniel: I’m very excited. As someone who’s writing a book, I also 1) kinda selfishly learn your journey, (mine’s been a very difficult one). And, so I may get a little selfish in my inquiries here--but more importantly, I’m curious to hear more about you. Who are you as a wife, as a person, as a mother? Tell us a little about yourself and what got you to this point.   01:12 Sarah: Sure, love to. So, I (we), Trent and I, my husband and I, will be going on 19 years of marriage this September. I have 5 children, I currently live in Utah. We lived in California for a time, actually, in San Diego area actually. Miss that place, for sure. But, yeah, I first basically grew up in an LDS home and I grew up in a family with 8 children, and I’m 6th of the 8. [...] In our home we didn’t talk about anything remotely close to our bodies. We were very surface type of family. We didn’t really talk about hard things. I wouldn’t say that we were an authentic family. But, at the same time, I did feel loved by my parents and I felt that they were providing me with a really great education, secularly as well as spiritually. And so, I didn’t feel like I was necessarily neglected in the way I was thinking.    02:29 Sarah: However, growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I’d run around with some friends who were sexually active and seeing the naive young teenager that I was, I kinda looked at them and viewed them as people who were naughty girls, right? And so, I remember church lessons here and there. It wasn’t very often, but I do remember those specific metaphors that were shared. I actually did get the “chewed up piece of gum” kind of analogy, which maybe a lot of your audience here might have gotten.   03:10 Daniel: Oh…(sarcastically) excellent. Yeah.   03:13 Sarah: You know? And then I also just really created a lot of...I would just look at the word sex and just immediately think that it was just this dirty thing. However, there was also this other part of me that was being told that it was this sacred thing, and you don’t talk about it, right? And so I was just kinda like this....back and forth in my head about like, “what is this?” Sure, I had boyfriends in high school and I do remember getting close a couple times where I feel like my body was in a state of arousal. Obviously I didn’t know what it was, because I didn’t know my body then. But looking back, I’m like, “Oh, that’s what that tingling sensation was when I was getting close to that boy, oh! Okay, right.”    04:06 Sarah: I can say that now, but at the time, as a teenager, I didn’t at all. And I never (like when I would shower and stuff), like I would just hurry and shower really quick and then get out. I never wanted to self-pleasure or anything, at all. I didn’t even know my body. And so, come the time of marriage, the night before I’m to be married, my mom thinks it’s a great time to talk about sex. She pulls me aside and she basically asked me, “You’re gonna have sex tomorrow night, right?” and I was like, “well, I guess…”. I mean, I kinda remember my teenage years back in high school telling me that a penis goes inside a vagina, but then I was like...I plugged my ears like “I don’t wanna hear this, I don’t wanna hear this!” I just kinda ignored what they were gonna tell me. I knew just that fact: that a penis goes into a vagina and that was it. My mom was like, “Well, here’s a book. Go ahead and read this book.” And it was the book from...is it called, Between Husband and Wife by Lamb? Dr. Lamb?   05:14 Daniel: Oh yeah, oh yeah. 05:15 Sarah: Yeah, it was that book. And I was like, “Mom, I don’t have time to read this book.” And she’s like, “Well, you’ll eventually refer back to it.” And that was it. That was my sex talk from my mom. I was just basically thrown into the fire the night of my wedding. It was very traumatic. Very long, exhausting night as any honeymooners would imagine, who had never had sex before, trying to figure things out, trying to figure out our bodies. Anyways, it was just a mess. And I called my mom the next day, just in tears, like, “I just got married and this just happened to me.” I didn’t go into detail with her because we don’t...we don’t talk about details or anything like that. But I really wanted to, like, it was like this cry for help. Like, “why didn’t you tell me these things? Why didn’t you help me to understand how my body works in this way? That it’s supposed to be designed for this?” Anyway. That’s just kinda the cycle that happened for I’d say the first 16 years of my marriage. That was the only thing we really fought about in our marriage, was sex. It wasn’t money or anything, it was always about sex.   06:42 Daniel: You mean, the issues were always about sex? 06:45 Sarah: The issues, yeah. 06:46 Daniel: Okay. 06:47 Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. The issues around sex. He would always try to approach me and help to try to fix me, right? Because of course he wanted a decent experience, too. But, at the same time, I was looking at him like, “Oh...this is all you want. You just want my body.” And that was it. I viewed myself as this tool for him.   07:09 Daniel: So let me pause you right there. What you just stated was big! It was huge. So, you viewed yourself as a tool for him to get satisfied, is that what you’re saying? 07:22 Sarah: Exactly, yeah.   07:24 Daniel: And that was because of…   07:25 Sarah: You know, because I never...I never wanted to receive that pleasure for myself. Because I once again thought it was like...I thought I was a bad girl if I did that, right? So, even when I did have an orgasm, I’d immediately feel guilty every single time afterwards because of this shame that I’d created in my head about me having pleasure. So then, I viewed him as, “oh, he’s just using my body, and sex is for him, and orgasm is something that he just needs all the time.” 08:03 Daniel: I wanna explore that a little bit, if you’re okay with it. I know you bring it up in indirect ways, in fact, in your book Underneath it All... and I apologize to the audience, I didn’t mention the name of your book, Underneath it All...You’re Naked. I love that title by the way, I think it’s excellent.   08:18 Sarah: Thank you   08:19 Daniel: And your subtitle is “shedding light on misconceptions about sex from a Christian wife to Christian women.” But what you said right there was, you couldn’t allow yourself to experience pleasure. If you’re okay with that, let’s explore that a little bit more. You’re not the first to say this on my podcast and I hear it a lot from clients. What did it mean to you to experience pleasure? You’re married now, you knew clearly beforehand that (or, atleast, your value system says that) before marriage, I’m not gonna experience this. You’re saying: you jump in the shower, you get out as fast as you can because you didn’t want to self-stimulate or do anything wrong.   08:56 Sarah: Yep   08:57 Daniel: So now you’re married. What was the barrier for you in allowing yourself to experience that joy?   09:08 Sarah: Well, I think you’re basically asking what kinda shifted that focus for me? 09:16 Daniel: Well, what continued? A lot of men will get into relationships, they know they’re not supposed to pleasure before marriage but now they’re in marriage and they’re willing to let it all go--kinda the dynamic you just explained with you and your husband.   09:28 Sarah: Yeah.   09:29 Daniel: But, what prevented you, I guess...maybe, is it a shift? I guess that’s the question I’m asking you is, is it a shift? Or, it seemed more like though, you carried this perspective: “I’m not allowed to have sexual pleasure even in marriage.” Which seems incongruent with the thoughts and beliefs you had before marriage. What was the barrier to...I mean, you saw your husband having pleasure, did that peak your interest and say, “How can I have that pleasure?” or was it this continued, “I can’t have this. It’s too shameful, it’s too hurtful.” 10:04 Sarah: No, it was definitely too hurtful to me. I would just, lay there. I always like to say I’d lay there like a dead fish, maybe you’ve heard that term before. I would just allow him to just do whatever he wanted to my body. You know? And I was really good at faking orgasm. It was definitely something just to get him off me as soon as I could, right? Because I just felt dirty the whole time, when he was on me. It’s amazing how much conditioning that I had created in my head, and this belief that really ate away at my soul. To know that this shame enveloped my whole body and created a wedge in my marriage to where I looked at him as somebody that just used me. You know?    11:10 Daniel: So, I’m really curious. What took you from that experience to what you say on page 56? It’s this idea of being able to embrace very differently. Practice patience, self-compassion, and have a sense of humor about it. That seems like a complete 180 shift.    11:29 Sarah: Yeah. 11:30 Daniel: What was the journey you had from what you’re experiencing, that “pleasure is painful and icky” to this wonderful perspective of even having a sense of humor about it? What led you there?   11:41 Sarah: Well, not an overnight thing. I’ll just say that right now. [laughs] It definitely was, you know, I had this moment--this wake-up call. Sixteen years in, I was fed up. Basically telling myself over and over and over, “Sarah why can’t you figure this out? Why is this so hard for you? Why can’t you just get over this? Why do you look at sex in this perspective?” Just this why, why why. I finally had this moment of surrender. I didn’t talk to anybody, Daniel. I suffered in silence for years. I didn’t talk to my sisters, definitely not my mom, right? Not even my girlfriends, nobody. 12:30 Daniel: That’s what we’re taught. We’re taught to not even talk to our loved one’s about it, even our spouse.   12:34 Sarah: Exactly, exactly. And of course, then Trent would ask, my husband would ask me, “what is it you want?” And I’m like, “well, I don’t know what i want.” I’ve never allowed myself to have conversations and talk about it. He would just ask me question after question to open my mind and see the possibility and then I’d shut him down all the time, right? It was just this constant battle. So finally, it was just this one day, I called Suzanne, right? I refer to her in my book a lot. She was this woman who I met randomly in Guatemala of all places. I just look back and I’m like, it was by divine design that I would meet her that summer of 2017 so that she could open my eyes.   13:20 Daniel: I actually love what you said about Suzanne, is that she started her journey because of romance novels. I like that.   13:29 Sarah: Yeah. I’m not a big romance novel kind of girl but you know, some people are. Anyway we got to talking. We literally...our airbnbs were literally across from each other. I didn’t know Spanish, she didn’t know Spanish, it was a Sunday afternoon, we had nothing else to do--so we got to know each other. And we literally...like, she just opened up to me. We talked about our sex lives, and this ws the very first time I was like, this is a really fun conversation! It was the first time I actually looked at it with clear eyes to see the potential in me and the hope. Because she had already kinda gone through her own little journey, because she was basically me. She gave me hope to look at it with a different set of eyes. I went from a place of--this is where I talk a lot about, in my book--this view of going from a judgement place to being more curious. She allowed me, she gave me permission. It’s interesting how as women, we need permission, you know? 14:44 Daniel: What I’m curious though, is, what was it about Suzanne that allowed you to open up? you have been fighting this for so many years.   14:52 Sarah: Yeah.   14:53 Daniel: What prevented you from putting up another barrier? “Nope, I’m not talking about that, that’s betraying my husband, that’s betraying myself…”   14:57 Sarah: That’s true.   14:58 Daniel: What was it about her that allowed you to open up?    15:03 Sarah: Good question.   15:04 Daniel: I think that’s the biggest thing with women is finding that opportunity and how, because they get into this same place where “I can’t talk about this and I won’t talk about it and I don’t care how familiar I am with you”--so what was it about her>   15:15 Sarah: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I had been studying and learning about...I love Brené Brown, and at that point in my life I’d really been learning vulnerability and authenticity. When she just started talking to me and exposing herself to me, I was .... she gave me permission to therefore share my things, right? There’s power when you can start a conversation and be like, “I’m messed up.” You know? “Here’s all these parts of me that I don’t understand, can you help me kinda walk through this?”    15:53 Sarah: And that’s what she was for me, you know? And I think that’s what really created that safe place for me. She was like my safe place, because we could relate on so many levels, right? And I think when there’s vulnerability and authenticity in any friendship or relationship, there’s definitely power behind that--to be able to know, “hey, I’m not alone. We can do this together.” And I feel like that’s kinda what I’ve been doing now...you know, here’s my mess and I’m creating it into a message and helping other women to understand “you’re not alone. You’re not broken. There’s hope for you.” And I think that’s what's beautiful about this. And that’s what made that shift for me, is to allow myself to just open up, receive the information from this trusted (well, quick-trusted friend, right? I’d just met her) and just share all of me with her. It was quite an experience, that was for sure.   17:00 Daniel: So it sounds like Brené Brown gave you that courage,    17:04 Sarah: Yeah, exactly.   17:04 Daniel: that platform, or, not platform, kinda that foundation that it’s okay to be vulnerable here. But what I think is important for the audience to be aware of is, you’re still really new in your journey. This was very recently. So, you went to, on that trip back in, if I remember right, 2017? 17:20 Sarah: 2017, yeah. 17:21 Daniel: So you’re only like, three years into this. 17:25 Sarah: Yeah. 17:25 Daniel: That is phenomenal! You cranked out a book in sharing your journey. That’s...   17:31 Sarah: Yeah. 17:32 Daniel: So, emotionally, what is that like for you right now? So, kinda step away from the book and this narrative. You really are, in the context of people who are learning themselves, you’re really at the beginning of this journey. So, emotionally, what are you going through right now?   17:52 Sarah: Emotionally, I mean, you know what? I started it...I just consumed as much information as I could. I finally got to this place where I could..   18:06 Daniel: Do you feel like you’re a lot more confident? Or do you feel like you still have a lot of insecurities or vulnerabilities around it? Where do you feel like you’re at? 18:15 Sarah: I totally feel confident in my sexuality now, and that I can say that--I wouldn’t say 100%, for sure--I’m still learning and growing and I think that’s what’s great about understanding your sexuality because it’s going to always evolve and change because there’s just more things we’re gonna find out about ourselves. But, oh man, just to think about where I’ve...even just two years ago...to where I am now, and being able to have emotional connection with my husband, and him understanding how me, as a woman, how I work. And, you know, he takes the time to emotionally connect with me before even getting into the bedroom, you know? And understanding how my body needs to go through this sexual response cycle, which, I talk about that in my book. There’s a lot of therapists out there that talk about the different sexual response cycles that we go through, right? 19:20 Daniel: Exactly. 19:21 Sarah: And just, understanding that.   19:22 Daniel: So you gave yourself permission to get here so that you can help your husband understand your body because in the past, you know, he’s asking what you want, and as you said, you’re there as a dead fish. Just, finish it out. 19:33Sarah: Yeah. 19:34 Daniel: That, I think, is critical. Like I posted in our Improving Intimacy group today this idea of, especially with women, “okay, I’ve given myself permission, now it’s scary.” Was it scary to give yourself permission? Were you afraid of what you discovered? 19:50 Sarah: Oh, yeah! Yeah. So, of course, we’re going to have those fears. It’s part of our human nature, especially when we’ve created so much judgement and shame around it. There’s going to be fear that comes up. And there’s definitely going to be things that we might come across we don’t quite understand, or we definitely judge really quickly, right?    20:18 Sarah: Masturbation being one of them for me. That was a huge, like...I didn’t want to enter that specific subject until I felt comfortable in my body first, and learning the anatomy of my body first, before I could venture into that. So I feel like it’s a series of stepping stones. You kinda have to evolve into and work into. As I started reading all these books, that’s kind of what happened after I met with Suzanne, she gave me a couple books to read--and from there, I just took off. I was like, thirsting for knowledge for the first time in sex. Once I’d read one book, I went to the next book, and then I went to the next book. Just reading so much content that I could get my hands on. It was this, like, basically cry for help and just learning on my couch from all different kinds of therapists and sex experts and human sexuality professors and so many things, and I just was like, “oh my gosh! I’m finally in a place where I can receive this!” And yes, there’s gonna be content out there, once again, that we just kinda have to like, pick and choose, I don’t know, what resonates with you? 21:39 Daniel: I think that’s...I wanna ask you about that.    21:43 Sarah: Sure.   21:44 Daniel: But before I do, I really appreciate you addressing, briefly, in your book, about masturbation. You give a context for it, the history behind it, the fears around it. 21:51 Sarah: Yeah. 21:52 Daniel: What was that journey for you? You’re addressing that fear, you’re realizing, “okay, I need to understand myself.” Some wives feel like, “okay, I do need to figure out my body, but I will not do it without my husband present.    22:05 Sarah: Yeah.    22:06 Daniel: What was it like for you? Did you find that it was more valuable to do it alone so that you could do it without pressure? Or was it important for you to explore that with your spouse? 22:15 Sarah: So, in the beginning, I chose to explore with my husband. And it’s still a work in progress, Daniel [laughs], it’s still kinda like...I’m not fully 100% like going off by myself all the time, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like, it’s kinda going back to this stepping stone thing. I start with my husband to understand, and know, and feel comfortable, and then [...] it’s still just something that I know, I KNOW--that’s the crazy part, I KNOW--that it’s beneficial for me to know what feels good and what doesn’t, you know?    22:56 Daniel: Absolutely.   22:57 Sarah: But then, the shame just creeps in. And I remember this one specific time, I was like, “okay, Sarah.” I was seriously coaching myself! “Okay, Sarah, we can do this. We can do this!” You know? 23:11 Daniel: And you’re talking about when you’re masturbating, you’re trying to... 23:14 Sarah: Yeah!   23:14 Daniel: ...to get into the headspace.   23:15 Sarah: Like, I’ll go and I’ll coach myself and like, I’ll breathe and everything. A really great book, Slow Sex, was really powerful for me, by the way. 23:24 Daniel: Okay, excellent. Excellent book.   23:25 Sarah: Just the breathing, and… yeah.   23:26 Daniel: I think a lot of...so, we’re speaking to an LDS audience or a Christian-based audience. Sometimes, that book isn’t received very well. She talks about a lot of--   23:37 Sarah: Yeah   23:38 Daniel: So, the audience--it’s an excellent book. Excellent book. It does venture into some concepts and ideas that I think are extremely helpful, but be aware, it is not a warning, but just be aware--you're not going out and getting, you know, an LDS book about how to understand your own sexuality. It’s a very raw and in-depth book. Excellent.   24:00 Sarah: Yeah. 24:01 Daniel: So, I think that’s, so that kinda leads me into my second question, or where we left off before I asked this question. There’s so many resources out there. Often, when people try to explore this route, they stay, you know they kind of follow that insecurity be staying on a very safe path of resources. I don’t wanna name any books, I don’t want anybody to feel like they’re being judged around it, but--   24:27 Sarah: Sure.   24:28 Daniel: How did you, for example, Emily Nagoski, that’s not an LDS author. How did you determine which books were good for you? Whether it’s Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, or Natasha [breaks off]   24:39 Sarah: Uh huh.   24:40 Daniel: What was your internal compass to decide, “this is helpful, this is good in my pursuit of my own sexuality, but being within the framework of my faith?” 24:51 Sarah: Sure. The thing is, when you go on Amazon, there’s going to be all kinds of reviews from all over, right? Of course I would read the reviews, that’s what most people do when they go searching for a book. but also, of course, having my friend Suzanne of course had already read a few. So I kinda had an understanding... 25:14 Daniel: [laughs]   25:15 Sarah: ...from some of the things, right? so then there’s also...I did go and actually look them up, not just about their book but just them as a person. I did some research on who they are and like, what are they teaching, what are they, like, out there, like, what’s their message, kind of thing. And so then I felt more comfortable to kinda open up and seek. And of course, I’d go to my city library, right? And go to the sexuality section and I’d just camp out and just kinda peruse books that way. That’s also helpful ‘cause it’s free. It’s not like I’m going to buy a book. But, there’s so many [pauses] there’s amazing people out there doing amazing things, and I just…   26:09 Daniel: So I guess, let me push a little on this, is--for example, with Slow Sex, what kept you from reading that and saying, “whoa. This is way outside of my value system.” 26:17 Sarah: [laughs]   26:18 Daniel: “I shouldn’t be reading this.” And we’re talking about, just three years ago, you’re Sarah who’s just now recognizing all the rigidity around your sexual understanding and lack of understanding with your sexuality.   26:31 Sarah: Yeah.   26:32 Daniel: What kept you from throwing that book aside and saying, “this is horrible”?   26:39 Sarah: Well, I know this sounds really simple, but what I kept coming back to all the time, Daniel, was “Sarah, quit judging it. Be more curious.” 26:50 Daniel: Not simple at all. That is beautiful.   26:54 Sarah: You know, that’s it. That’s all...and that’s what I had to tell myself all the time. “Sarah, you’re looking at oral sex and you’re judging it. How can I be more curious about how it can apply to me and my relationship in my intimate relationship with my husband?” Like, what does that look like, you know? And so [laughs] it really is simple. But it is so profound to me, and it’s carried me the last three years. And that’s why I really hone-in on it in my book. Waking up women to understand, “quit judging it so much,”   27:34 Daniel: Absolutely love it.   27:34 Sarah: “and look at it from a place of curiosity.”   27:35 Daniel: And I think you see that journey as you go through this, like, starting in...what chapter is this? Page 100 or so. You start talking about loving yourself from the inside out. And you do a full inventory: “what do I lack? What am I insecure about?” (I’m putting some of my own words to this, but…) you take the individual through this process and I think that’s key. absolutely key. So, yes, the answer is simple, but boy, the process can be painful. That’s something that I actually warn my clients when I do this similar type of self-inventory. I have them often review themselves: where did they start--I like the word you used, stop judging it, and just learn from it. And I have people start to do this, is “stop judging your body, in fact, look at yourself. You think you have a fat tummy, who told you that? Who defined that for you?”   28:28 Sarah: Exactly.   28:29 Daniel: “Who took away your agency to keep you from actually looking at yourself in the way you should? Who defined it?” And they’ll go through this emotional process, “oh my goodness, that first boy I dated, he made fun of me or he poked me in the tummy and ever since then, I’ve been insecure. I’m not gonna let that dude take away from my agency. I’m gonna choose how to view my body.” And you kinda do a similar thing here.   28:53 Sarah: Yeah. 28:54 Daniel: Tell us a little more about that.   28:55 Sarah: Yeah, so, this is actually my second book. [laughs] I wrote a book 5 years ago called, MindStrength for Women. And it was all about just loving ourselves and overcoming this idea that we’re not enough and we're not good enough, not smart enough, and all these things, right? Of course I, at that time, I did like, I’d learned a lot about myself. And so the crazy part to all that whole story was, I felt amazing and went through a physical change, emotional change, and all these other things, but I kept sex hidden up in the corner, you know? Like in this closet, you know? So when I actually brought sex in, into the light, right? Now I felt like I’d become this whole person, and then like, a wholly unique being.    29:54 Sarah: And I talk about this term called “sexy confidence” in my book, and how as women, it’s not so much about our body or anything of that nature. It’s about, how do we walk into a room, and how do we make people feel? What kind of energy are we bringing into the room? Is this a loving environment? And this is where I kinda had to do this with my husband, too. Because, when you’re in the bedroom, as women, we start to...like, if we even put on a piece of lingerie or something, we start to immediately judge our body that it’s not looking so amazing.    30:35 Sarah: And I talk about, when I’m with women and stuff, I talk about this idea of like, you know, there’s this...we as women get into serious judgement, but when we can come from learning to love ourselves from the way God sees us (because obviously that’s important), that we can be able to be at one with our husbands, even. And not focus so much on the belly fat that’s hanging out when we’re trying to get on top of him, you know? And just like, how we can emotionally connect instead of looking at our bodies and judging every nook and cranny that we don’t like, kind of thing.   31:25 Daniel: Love that.  Now, you jumped into something later on, about how women need novelty. I thought this was interesting. I believe it. I’m one who likes to shatter myths out there. But the prevailing thought is, men need novelty. Women want consistency. Tell me more about this.    31:45 Sarah: Yeah. 31:46 Daniel: I think this is fascinating. I don't think anybody else is addressing it, and I’ve read a lot of books, so tell me a little about your discovery there.   31:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, I think [...] I do believe women, we do need novelty. We just don’t think we need it [laughs]. I don’t know if that makes sense. We do love,   32:11 Daniel: Yes   32:12 Sarah: we like change. I don’t like the same position every time, I mean, anybody else? I mean, once I actually, was the--I mean, yes, I did missionary position for years, trust me, I know. But now that I’ve educated myself and I’ve found other ways to, you know, “quote, unquote” “sized up the bedroom” I actually do thrive on change in the bedroom. It keeps the spark alive and it creates more novelty, you know? 32:43 Daniel: Well, I think that’s important,   32:45 Sarah: Yeah   32:46 Daniel: because I think a lot of men get criticized because they want something new and that’s scary for their partners, but I--   32:51 Sarah: Yeah   32:52 Daniel: You’re realizing, part of the problem is you wanted it to be changed up, you wanted it exciting, you wanted it novel. And I think that’s part of the discovery for a lot of women in discovering their desire is, “wow, I’m realizing I’m not as vanilla as I thought I was.” 33:07 Sarah: Yeah. 33:08 Daniel: “Where will this end?” Were you concerned with that? Did you feel you were gonna go into desires and passions and things that were forbidden for you? What was that experience like for you? 33:19 Sarah: Yeah. Well, of course in the beginning--because, you know, my shame was still enveloped around me in certain points where it would rise up, you know? But then I’d have to open my eyes, like, “Sarah, quit judging it again!” You know? But at the same time, I realized how we can add just more experiences that we haven’t had necessarily before, in like, the safety of our own couple relationship.   33:55 Daniel: Just going back to the concept of not judging it and allow it to flow naturally.    34:01 Sarah: Yeah.   34:02 Daniel: As Emily Nagoski says, don’t put on the brakes. Just... 34:05 Sarah: Yeah, the brakes. I love that analogy, too. Oh my gosh, shes...yeah. Don’t put on the brakes, keep the accelerator going, because, you know. Sometimes, you don’t know if you’re even going to like it. So, quit judging that you’re not going to like it before you even start it, right? And allow yourself to receive. Okay, that’s another thing. Oh my gosh. As women, we give, give, give all day long, to everybody and everything. All the time. Right? So when I was like, “Sarah, you deserve to receive. You get to receive pleasure, you get to receive these different avenues of novelty, and this is okay for you.” Like, once again, I [laughs] I’ve had to coach myself. I do thisl ike, mental inventory in my head before I have sex with my husband. Like, “Sarah, we can do this. It’s fine. This is something that we’ve talked about, we’ve had discussions about this, we feel comfortable that this is something we want to choose to do and explore, and let’s be open to that.” So, yeah. I'm really good at coaching myself now. 35:19 Daniel: Yeah, it sounds like it. Sounds like you’ve come a long way in just three years. I like the other concept you’ve shared about sex drives, desire level. The differences aren’t the problem. Share with the audience what you meant by that.   35:35 Sarah: Differences aren’t the problem. We label ourselves when we first get married [laughs]. Now, like, you know as I’ve learned, not all men are higher desire partners, okay? Right? 35:49 Daniel: Not at all, right. 35:50 Sarah: Right. And so, we are really quick to label who’s higher, who’s lower, you know? And we, there’s a …. do you want me to quote books in here? 36:05 Daniel: Absolutely! Tell your story. Yep. 36:08 Sarah: Okay. One of the books, Passion Paradox, have you heard of that book? 36:13 Daniel: Actually, no, I haven’t read nor have I heard of it.   36:16 Sarah: Okay, I’m trying to think of the author right now, but it was...it’s like, an old book. It was like....it’s old. But anyway, there’s this...he talks about this whole idea of passion. Because, sometimes like, as women, we label ourselves as lower desire, say that we are, right? And we view the partner as the higher desire. But there’s different ways of expressing and showing passion to each other. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be just like a sexual thing. Sometimes, in different seasons of our lives, we kinda ebb and flow, and you know, go from one extreme to another or something. And I think this whole idea that we put labels is unfortunate, because I chose to give myself that label for all those years, and I clung on to it. And I would just view my husband, like, “you just want sex all the time. And I’m just gonna sit here, and just kinda vent to you that I don’t wanna have it, because I’ve already labelled myself that I don’t want it.”   37:30 Daniel: As opposed to learning how to meet the needs of each other.   37:33 Sarah: Yeah, yeah. 37:34 Daniel: I think that theme is so important throughout your book. I refer to it as breaking the culture of sexual silence, and I love that you hit on it throughout the entirety of your book. Especially, I believe, in chapter 14 talking about it. Even if I don’t know a lot about it, talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about everything you know about sex, and become comfortable with it. That is so important. As you learned early on with your mom, and with other friends, you couldn’t talk about it. And that is one of the biggest desire killers and barriers to education. So, learning how to break that culture of silence around sexuality, even when you don’t know fully what you’re talking about, start to share. That’s what we do. As kids, we talk about things we don’t know, and then parents correct us. People inform us. You go into it non-judgmentally, again, another thing that you carry throughout the book. Absolutely wonderful. You want to tell us a little bit about how you...what that was like for you as you realized you’re in this process, you’re learning. What were some of the fears, hesitations, or positive experiences you had with sharing freely your knowledge?   38:45 Sarah: Ok, so, you know I’m reading all these books, right? And consuming everything that I could. And I just, I remember always just like walking out, like, in public, you know, in Target or wherever, and seeing all these women. And I”m like, “oh. If they only knew. oh if they only knew.” Right? [laughs] and there’s a point where…’cause I truly believe I’ve obviously come to a place where I--and you’ve seen this in my book--I’m a realist. Like, I really share the dark sides of me, and my hang-ups and everything, and I’m okay with it. I've come to a place where I don’t have this fear of judgement of what other people might think of me, because I’ve realized that the more I share, the more respect I get from people. And so, as I was reading all these things, and I’m going out into public and I see all these women, and I’m just wondering, “I wonder if she’s like...if she was like me.” Because I’m now, not. I don’t really...it’s hard for me, sometimes, to even take myself back, even three years ago, to where I was. Because I’m so much more happier now. But sometimes i have to take myself there so that I can be, you know, relatable, to other women, right? So, of course in our LDS culture, [laughs] I have definitely … I’ve lost friendships. I’ll be honest.   40:18 Daniel: What do you mean? I think I know what you’re talking about there, because I’ve experience the same, but share with the audience what that means. Just because you’re being passionate and open about sexuality, you lost friends? 40:28 Sarah: Yeah. 40:29 Daniel: What happened there? 40:30 Sarah: Yeah, so...just in small conversations, or I might have written like a post or something on facebook about a book that I was reading. And then it just rubs somebody the wrong way, you know? And I've actually had a few friends who’ve vocally come and told me that they don’t agree with what I’m talking about and learning about. And that’s fine. It was of course hard to hear, ‘cause it’s like a blow. It’s like this form of rejection that you don’t want to ever experience in your life. But at the same time, there was like, 30+ women behind me saying “thank you. I learned so much from you,” you know? And so, it’s just our human nature to cling-on to those one or two people that give you that negative comment, right? But it definitely propelled me to keep sharing, because I know how my life has changed because of it. And my marriage has changed because of it. And I can’t deny it.    41:43 Sarah: So as I’ve opened up about it, and talked to people within my neighborhood or community, like I just know that I am making strides with people. I actually, just yesterday, I had a friend who had finally come around. I’ve been talking to her for like, since I started reading books, and just recently she was like, “Sarah, I think I’m ready.” You know? And you just have to kinda wait for those people to come around, and they will, eventually. And they’ll realize just how powerful this can be, when they can open and be more curious to see what their life can be like if they chose to look at it with a different perspective.    42:34 Daniel: Absolutely.   42:35 Sarah: So yeah. 42:35 Daniel: In other words, you’re not pushing your narrative. 42:36 Sarah: No.   42:38 Daniel: People know what you know.   42:38 Sarah: No, yeah. 42:40 Daniel: Because, you’re open about it. And you’re waiting for them to come and seek you out. 42:43 Sarah: Yeah. 42:44 Daniel: That’s excellent. 42:45 Sarah: Exactly. yeah, just kinda wait for them and whenever they’re ready, I’ll be there with open arms to teach them and to guide them through their own experience. The crazy part is [laughs] I have no desire to be a sex therapist like yourself, or you know, go and be a professor or anything of that nature. I just love learning about it. I feel like, I don’t know, I guess people can kind of resonate more with a girl off the street I guess first, and then I can guide them to therapists or whoever else they need help with, right? Because I obviously don’t have all the tools, but I’m their starting point, you know? And that’s what I love about me being open about it, is that I can be their starting point and then they can move from there to seek more professional help if they need it, you know? 43:41 Daniel: Absolutely. What a wonderful theme that you’ve carried out through the book. I think it’s been wonderfully done, I think you’ve communicated well. Are there...as we wrap up here, is there anything else about the book or your experiences that you feel is important for the audience to know about you, and your journey, or maybe possibly the journey that they’re going through? 44:02 Sarah: Oh yeah, I mean, as you [...] just, the book, in and of itself, it just breaks down so many things. You know, out there in our audience, you  might have someone who feels like they are broken, right? Or, they feel like, that there’s no hope in their marriage. We didn’t even touch on porn, that’s a whole-nother enchilada in and of itself…   44:28 Daniel: So, I… hold off on that, because I--   44:31 Sarah: [laughs]   44:31 Daniel: I love that you refer to porn the way you did in your book, as a compulsion, as a temptation, as a potential device in a marriage or [pauses] divisiveness in a marriage.    44:45 Sarah: Yeah.   44:46 Daniel: And I love the language that you used in there, and I would be interested in exploring that a little more, if you’d like. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it, and why you included it? 44:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, obviously from personal experience, it was not me, it was my husband’s, right? I think it’s just, he actually, it was the [....]  I remember the day, and I’m sure a lot of men and women here can remember the day that their spouse came to them with this news, right? Or they found out in some other way, right? That’ll be a day that you won’t ever forget.    45:24 Sarah: But, that day, he came and approached me, and it was during this time that I had finished writing my first book. And I was, like I said before, I was in a really good place, and just felt pretty good about life because I was working on myself. And I think that’s what’s key here, in this chapter particularly, is, whether man or woman, right? Really focus on, what are you doing in the relationship? What can you do to better yourself, to become a better version of yourself? And that’s kinda where i was at that point, luckily.    46:01 Sarah: And that’s when Trent felt comfortable to actually approach me and tell me about his porn addiction. Because, you know, he had these fears that I would leave him and all these things, right? Like everybody might have. And he came, and he told me, and it was just this, you know, gut-wrenching kind of feeling. And the first question that came into my mind, “what’s wrong with me? Why does he feel like he has to do this? I can’t believe he’s done this. He’s this amazing man, how did porn get a hold of him?” Kind of thing. And so, back then, I was doing a lot of video journaling, and so after he told me, I just was like, “kay, just hold on a second, I need to go into my closet and kinda think about this.”    46:48 Sarah: So, I went to my closet and for ten minutes I just kind of, just like, talked to myself. Like, just basically went through, in my head, what I’d just heard. And, it’s interesting, I still have this video and I treasure it, but...so you’ll notice (well, you won’t notice, because you’re not watching it), but in the first five minutes, I’m just like, processing, like, “why him? Why me?” Everything right? This pity party. And then, the last five minutes, I just kinda make this shift. It was God telling me, “Sarah, he’s a son of God.” And that’s all I heard. That’s all I heard, and I knew that I needed to walk with him in this journey.    47:34 Sarah: I was not to fix him, because I can’t fix him, right? But I can walk with him to, you know, figure out how to help him navigate, you know, and how to get the help that he needed kind of stuff. And so, that was [...] once again, it’s a simple thing, but that was the one thing that really carried me through that experience. Just recognizing that he’s a son of God and together we can work through the porn addiction, and we can come out on top. And we definitely have. And it’s been an incredible experience. But there’s definitely been pain. It hasn’t been easy. But, there’s definitely a light at the end of the tunnel.   48:22 Daniel: A lot of people are listening, saying, “okay, yeah, you just shared he just dumped this big thing on you.” And if I remember right, you even equate pornography to adultery, or cheating, on the relationship, am I remembering correctly? 48:39 Sarah: Yeah. 48:39 Daniel: That’s a very big view to have. One that, generally, is very divisive in a relationship. And you also refer to it as an addiction. And if anybody’s been in my group, they know how sensitive I am about that terminology.    48:54 Sarah: Yeah.   48:54 Daniel: You actually went and learned a lot from Cameron Staley, 48:58: Oh, man. 48:59 Daniel: about mindfulness, which is not an addiction approach, it’s a very mindful approach. 49:03Sarah: Yeah. 49:03 Daniel: Which is very much in harmony with the theme of your book: non-judgemental, non-rigid around these things but being more mindful and self-aware. 49:15 Sarah: Self-awareness is huge, yeah. 49:17 Daniel: And I think that led you to this [...] because usually, the concepts of addiction don’t lead you into the direction that you’re talking about, in fact, it leads you in a very opposite direction. But I love that mindfulness, and fortunately, meeting up with Cameron, or whatever you learned from him, it led you to this idea.   49:34 Sarah: Yeah. 49:35 Daniel: One of the concepts that you shared there was, and I’m gonna put it in my terminology: “I don’t view sex as a punishment or reward, I view it as communcation.” And you talk about there, “yes, it’s not your fault, and you as the wife, you’re not responsible for his behavior. However, why are you punishing him by not giving him sex? Is that your because of your insecurity?” I realize I’m butchering your words, I’m putting in mine.   49:59 Sarah: Yeah. 50:00 Daniel: And correct me if I’m misrepresenting your train of thought there. But, you're saying, “embrace them. Don’t withhold sex because of mabye, your insecurities.”   50:09 Sarah: Yep, that’s the worst thing you could do, is to withhold it.   50:10 Daniel: Absolutely, absolutely. Although, giving them sex, you shouldn’t have this expecation: now, he’s gonna be safe, you know? In fact, I think you pointed that out, if I remember right. 50:20 Sarah: Yes, I did. 50:21 Daniel: You said somethinglike, “okay, I’m gonna give him all”--because some women do that--”I’m gonna give him all the sex he needs so he avoids it.”   50:26 Sarah: Then he won’t even go look, yeah.   50:27 Daniel: And that’s a reward or punishment approach, as opposed to communication and connecting.   50:33 Sarah: Yes. 50:33 Daniel: And so, ironically, taking that other approach of withholding or giving too much, is very much objectification, and divisive in the relationship. It’s not connected. And so I love that you embrace that idea, of “it’s not my responsibility, but I’m not going to miss this opportunity to connect with my partner. Because I view porn in this context”--whatever it is-- “I’m not going to let that get in my way of connecting with my partner.” I thought that was beautiful.   51:02 Sarah: Yeah, just finding that middle ground. I mean, I remember coming home and asking anything I could about porn. Because, I had no idea what that world was like. None. And so, it blew my mind to see, like, wow. I really don’t know anything! But at the same time, like, let’s come together and have conversations to see, like, how we can navigate this new normal. Come to a middle ground to connect. I mean, we uh, this could be a whole-nother podcast. That definitely, that experience...I mean, it didn’t take me on my sex journey, because I found out about this, probably like 5 years ago.    51:51 Daniel: You mean, his use of porn? 51:54 Sarah: Yes, his use of porn. And so, there were still a couple years in between there where I was just trying to like, you know, I’d have [...] our communication was better, it wasn’t the best as it is now, but we were definitely communicating. And I wasn't that one that was like, you know, denying him and like, that kind of thing. Because, I was kind of understanding how, you know, I needed to create this middle ground to see how we can evolve into something better. And so then, when I finally accepted like, “okay, I need to work on my sexuality,” then that took us to a whole-nother level. And he’s been amazing and [pauses], yeah. He doesn’t have those compulsions anymore and even if he does, he comes and talks to me about it, you know? And so, we’ve created a very healthy relationship in regards to porn.    52:52 Daniel: Sarah, that is wonderful. I would actually really love having you on again, at a future time, to talk about that.    52:58 Sarah: Yeah. 53:00 Daniel: Again, the book is Underneath it All...You’re Naked. Wonderful theme throughout the book. I think you did an amazing job with it, and I think the audience would really benefit from it. Thank you so much for coming on.   53:11 Sarah: Thank you. Aw, yeah, it’s been a pleasure. I appreciate you letting me have an opportunity to share my story. 53:18 Daniel: Thank you.   53:18 Sarah: It’s always something I like to talk about [laughs].   53:20 Daniel: Oh, clearly, 53:21 Sarah: It changed my life. Like, literally changed my life.   53:24 Daniel: Yeah. Your journey has been--   53:25 Sarah: Saved me. 53:26 Daniel: amazing. Thank you so much, Sarah. 53:28 Sarah: You’re welcome. [music]  

Sarah: Okay, John. I was curious about a trip you've taken. Have you ever taken a really, really awesome trip?John: Yeah. I've been on a lot of awesome trips but I didn't know that trips could be so awesome until I went with my kids.Sarah: Really? It went well?John: Oh yeah. It went very well. It's more fun, I think to take kids with on a trip.Sarah: Where did you go?John: I went to.Sarah: Wow.John: My first trip with a kid was with my daughter to. We did everything. We rode on elephants in, and we went down south and went to the beach. I wasn't worried about anything because of having kids with us. Yeah.So I wonder what would have been different if I didn't have kids. I probably would have stayed up too late, and I wouldn't have woken up in the morning. In that way, I think kids can help you have a better vacation. You can use your time better because kids are definitely going to wake up early. So you can't waste the morning.Sarah: You said you rode an elephant.John: Yes.Sarah: With your daughter? Didn't you think that was dangerous?John: Well, I was nervous about it at first. I thought, maybe it would be too dangerous but we had very good guides to help us. So I asked the elephant trainers, "Do you think it's safe enough for my daughter to ride the elephants?" And the trainers told us, yes, it would be very safe. And the trainers were right there with us together, from the start to the end. So there was never any risk.Sarah: Was there anything that you wanted to do but you decided you couldn't do it?John: Well, maybe there are some things that younger people would do if they don't have kids like going out to a dance club late at night. But I wasn't too interested in doing that anyway, so I don't consider that I missed it. Besides a dance club late at night, I don't think there's anything else I skipped. Maybe an amusement park. When you have a baby or a toddler, you can't go to an amusement park and go on a rollercoaster. But after the kids are older, you can do that, too.Sarah: So when you went to Thailand, you had one daughter, do you have more kids now?John: Yes. Now, I have a daughter and a son.Sarah: Is it hard to travel with two kids?John: Oh, it's a little harder than traveling with one kid but it's not twice as hard. There are two kids now but it's not twice as hard as traveling with one kid. Also, you find that lots of people want to help you. So if you have too many bags, for example, someone will help you carry your bags. Or if you need to feed your kids because babies can't feed themselves, right, well you just have to learn some skills like give one kid some toys while you feed the first child and then switch. So give toys to the other kid and feed the second one. So you learn lots of tricks like that so you can make traveling easier.Sarah: Well, it sounds like you have a great time traveling with your kids. Thanks for telling me about it.John: Oh yeah. I want to go on more trips with my kids. I can't wait for our next.

Sarah: Okay, John. I was curious about a trip you've taken. Have you ever taken a really, really awesome trip?John: Yeah. I've been on a lot of awesome trips but I didn't know that trips could be so awesome until I went with my kids.Sarah: Really? It went well?John: Oh yeah. It went very well. It's more fun, I think to take kids with on a trip.Sarah: Where did you go?John: I went to.Sarah: Wow.John: My first trip with a kid was with my daughter to. We did everything. We rode on elephants in, and we went down south and went to the beach. I wasn't worried about anything because of having kids with us. Yeah.So I wonder what would have been different if I didn't have kids. I probably would have stayed up too late, and I wouldn't have woken up in the morning. In that way, I think kids can help you have a better vacation. You can use your time better because kids are definitely going to wake up early. So you can't waste the morning.Sarah: You said you rode an elephant.John: Yes.Sarah: With your daughter? Didn't you think that was dangerous?John: Well, I was nervous about it at first. I thought, maybe it would be too dangerous but we had very good guides to help us. So I asked the elephant trainers, "Do you think it's safe enough for my daughter to ride the elephants?" And the trainers told us, yes, it would be very safe. And the trainers were right there with us together, from the start to the end. So there was never any risk.Sarah: Was there anything that you wanted to do but you decided you couldn't do it?John: Well, maybe there are some things that younger people would do if they don't have kids like going out to a dance club late at night. But I wasn't too interested in doing that anyway, so I don't consider that I missed it. Besides a dance club late at night, I don't think there's anything else I skipped. Maybe an amusement park. When you have a baby or a toddler, you can't go to an amusement park and go on a rollercoaster. But after the kids are older, you can do that, too.Sarah: So when you went to Thailand, you had one daughter, do you have more kids now?John: Yes. Now, I have a daughter and a son.Sarah: Is it hard to travel with two kids?John: Oh, it's a little harder than traveling with one kid but it's not twice as hard. There are two kids now but it's not twice as hard as traveling with one kid. Also, you find that lots of people want to help you. So if you have too many bags, for example, someone will help you carry your bags. Or if you need to feed your kids because babies can't feed themselves, right, well you just have to learn some skills like give one kid some toys while you feed the first child and then switch. So give toys to the other kid and feed the second one. So you learn lots of tricks like that so you can make traveling easier.Sarah: Well, it sounds like you have a great time traveling with your kids. Thanks for telling me about it.John: Oh yeah. I want to go on more trips with my kids. I can't wait for our next.

Sarah: So John, you told me about the paleo diet and what it is. But why did you decide to eat like that?John: Well, let me tell you. I was feeling sick for a long time.Sarah: Oh, I'm sorry.John: Oh, it's okay now.Thanks though. I started to feel sick three years ago, and then it got worse and worse in my stomach. I had lots of stomach trouble called indigestion, and I didn't know why until I found out that some foods are healthier than others. So that's why I started learning about the paleo diet and eating healthy. I found that we should eat fresh fruits and fresh vegetables and we definitely shouldn't eat fast food. And we shouldn't eat very many snacks either.Sarah: Oh.John: And because I was sick with my stomach trouble, I was also feeling depressed. But I learned that our moods and our emotions can be affected by what we eat.Sarah: Really?John: Yes. I was very surprised to learn that. But it makes sense because our brain chemistry comes from the foods we eat. When we eat healthy foods, we get good chemistry in our body and our brains can function normally, and we can have good moods and good emotions.Sarah: So you feel happier and healthier now that you changed your diet.John: That's true. But changing my diet wasn't enough. Even though I fixed my diet, I still didn't feel 100 percent. So I had to do more research. And I found something else that's very important.I didn't realize before but everyone needs to get enough exercise every week. In fact, it's best if you can exercise 30 minutes every day.Sarah: Everyday?John: Well, of course you can take a day off. Two days off each week is okay. And you don't have to do very difficult exercise. Just riding a bicycle or jogging is enough. But I also found that having a healthy diet and getting enough exercise is still not enough because you need two more important factors.Sarah: What are they?John: One is called stress management. When we feel stressed, our body has a reaction to stress, and it can make you feel sick, and it can put you in a bad mood. So we need to learn ways to manage our stress. So we need to learn how to breathe deeply and relax more. And when we encounter stress, we should learn healthy ways to react and not react in unhealthy ways, such as getting angry or feeling frustrated.Sarah: What's a healthy way to react?John: Well first, you should breathe and relax your body by slowing down. And then you should think calmly and clearly about the best way to handle a problem. So don't just worry about the problem and think about what can go wrong, but think calmly about ways to solve problems.Sarah: Okay.John: But I found the most important factor in feeling healthy was a big surprise to me.Sarah: What was it?John: We need to get enough sleep.Sarah: Oh.John: Everyone knows we should sleep more but very few people sleep enough. Most adults should sleep 8 hours every night. I was only sleeping 5 or 6 hours every night.Sarah: Oh wow.John: Yeah. So sleeping at night is like recharging your battery, right. So do you have a cell phone?Sarah: Sure, of course.John: What do you do when the battery is dead?Sarah: I plug it in.John: Yeah. And you need to leave it plugged in until it has a full charge. Well, not sleeping enough is just like unplugging your phone before it's charged. So it's much better to have a healthy diet and get a regular exercise, learn stress management skills, and most importantly, get enough sleep every night.Sarah: Okay. I'll try hard. Thank you.

Sarah: So John, you told me about the paleo diet and what it is. But why did you decide to eat like that?John: Well, let me tell you. I was feeling sick for a long time.Sarah: Oh, I'm sorry.John: Oh, it's okay now.Thanks though. I started to feel sick three years ago, and then it got worse and worse in my stomach. I had lots of stomach trouble called indigestion, and I didn't know why until I found out that some foods are healthier than others. So that's why I started learning about the paleo diet and eating healthy. I found that we should eat fresh fruits and fresh vegetables and we definitely shouldn't eat fast food. And we shouldn't eat very many snacks either.Sarah: Oh.John: And because I was sick with my stomach trouble, I was also feeling depressed. But I learned that our moods and our emotions can be affected by what we eat.Sarah: Really?John: Yes. I was very surprised to learn that. But it makes sense because our brain chemistry comes from the foods we eat. When we eat healthy foods, we get good chemistry in our body and our brains can function normally, and we can have good moods and good emotions.Sarah: So you feel happier and healthier now that you changed your diet.John: That's true. But changing my diet wasn't enough. Even though I fixed my diet, I still didn't feel 100 percent. So I had to do more research. And I found something else that's very important.I didn't realize before but everyone needs to get enough exercise every week. In fact, it's best if you can exercise 30 minutes every day.Sarah: Everyday?John: Well, of course you can take a day off. Two days off each week is okay. And you don't have to do very difficult exercise. Just riding a bicycle or jogging is enough. But I also found that having a healthy diet and getting enough exercise is still not enough because you need two more important factors.Sarah: What are they?John: One is called stress management. When we feel stressed, our body has a reaction to stress, and it can make you feel sick, and it can put you in a bad mood. So we need to learn ways to manage our stress. So we need to learn how to breathe deeply and relax more. And when we encounter stress, we should learn healthy ways to react and not react in unhealthy ways, such as getting angry or feeling frustrated.Sarah: What's a healthy way to react?John: Well first, you should breathe and relax your body by slowing down. And then you should think calmly and clearly about the best way to handle a problem. So don't just worry about the problem and think about what can go wrong, but think calmly about ways to solve problems.Sarah: Okay.John: But I found the most important factor in feeling healthy was a big surprise to me.Sarah: What was it?John: We need to get enough sleep.Sarah: Oh.John: Everyone knows we should sleep more but very few people sleep enough. Most adults should sleep 8 hours every night. I was only sleeping 5 or 6 hours every night.Sarah: Oh wow.John: Yeah. So sleeping at night is like recharging your battery, right. So do you have a cell phone?Sarah: Sure, of course.John: What do you do when the battery is dead?Sarah: I plug it in.John: Yeah. And you need to leave it plugged in until it has a full charge. Well, not sleeping enough is just like unplugging your phone before it's charged. So it's much better to have a healthy diet and get a regular exercise, learn stress management skills, and most importantly, get enough sleep every night.Sarah: Okay. I'll try hard. Thank you.

Sarah: So John, I heard you've been trying out a new diet. Can you tell me about it?John: Yes. I've been trying the paleo diet.Sarah: What's that?John: Well, this diet is supposed to make you feel better and eat healthier. And the idea is that a lot of the problems we have with health, a lot of modern human health problems, come from the foods we eat. So the idea is that maybe we should eat a diet which is closer to what early humans ate before.Sarah: Early humans ate? Like what did they eat?John: Well, they mostly ate fruits, and berries, and nuts, and meat. They didn't eat grains because grains come from agriculture, from growing plants on purpose.Sarah: Uh-hmm.John: And they didn't eat bread and cake and cookies and crackers.Sarah: It sounds like a hard diet to keep.John: It's a little difficult at first. What you have to realize is that these foods are refined foods. Refined foods are not really natural foods because humans have to do a lot of cooking processes to make these foods.Sarah: Uh-hmm.John: When you want to eat natural, you should eat food just the way it comes like raw vegetables and fresh fruit and meat that isn't processed. So you can't eat hotdogs.Sarah: Okay.John: And sausage.Sarah: Okay.John: But you can have steak…Sarah: It sounds…John: And fish.Sarah: It sounds like an expensive diet.John: Well actually, it turns out that when you eat fresh vegetables and fresh fruits, it can be cheaper. Processed food, refined food, comes in lots of packaging from the store, and sometimes it can be more expensive for convenience. Modern humans eat these processed foods for convenience. You don't have to wash it. You don't have to do the chopping and preparation when you eat refined foods.But when you go on paleo diet, you buy the fruit and you eat it. You buy the vegetables, you have to wash it and chop it and then you eat it. So it's not processed, and it's much healthier for you.Sarah: How do you feel since you started this diet?John: I feel much better actually. When we eat carbohydrates, we can feel tired. Carbohydrates are in processed foods like anything that comes from grains. Like I said, bread, cookies, cake, crackers. They have lots of carbohydrates. And when we eat them, our body has to use lots of energy to digest carbohydrates. It takes away energy which could be used for doing activities. That's why if you eat lots and lots of bread and cake, maybe you feel tired.Sarah: Oh, I see.John: If you just eat fresh vegetables and fruit, you can feel like you have lots of free energy.Sarah: Are there any foods that you miss?John: I think the food I missed the most is pizza. Pizza was my favorite food before. I used to eat pizza three times every week. Now, I rarely eat pizza. Pizza has a crust. The crust is bread, so the crust has lots of carbohydrates. Also, pizza has a lot of processed meats including pepperoni and sausage. Those meats are not very healthy for you. Also, pizza has lots of cheese on it. Cheese is another processed food. So if we cut out pizza from our diet, we can eat healthier and feel like we have more energy.Sarah: Well, that's great. Thanks for telling me about paleo.John: You're welcome.

Sarah: So John, I heard you've been trying out a new diet. Can you tell me about it?John: Yes. I've been trying the paleo diet.Sarah: What's that?John: Well, this diet is supposed to make you feel better and eat healthier. And the idea is that a lot of the problems we have with health, a lot of modern human health problems, come from the foods we eat. So the idea is that maybe we should eat a diet which is closer to what early humans ate before.Sarah: Early humans ate? Like what did they eat?John: Well, they mostly ate fruits, and berries, and nuts, and meat. They didn't eat grains because grains come from agriculture, from growing plants on purpose.Sarah: Uh-hmm.John: And they didn't eat bread and cake and cookies and crackers.Sarah: It sounds like a hard diet to keep.John: It's a little difficult at first. What you have to realize is that these foods are refined foods. Refined foods are not really natural foods because humans have to do a lot of cooking processes to make these foods.Sarah: Uh-hmm.John: When you want to eat natural, you should eat food just the way it comes like raw vegetables and fresh fruit and meat that isn't processed. So you can't eat hotdogs.Sarah: Okay.John: And sausage.Sarah: Okay.John: But you can have steak…Sarah: It sounds…John: And fish.Sarah: It sounds like an expensive diet.John: Well actually, it turns out that when you eat fresh vegetables and fresh fruits, it can be cheaper. Processed food, refined food, comes in lots of packaging from the store, and sometimes it can be more expensive for convenience. Modern humans eat these processed foods for convenience. You don't have to wash it. You don't have to do the chopping and preparation when you eat refined foods.But when you go on paleo diet, you buy the fruit and you eat it. You buy the vegetables, you have to wash it and chop it and then you eat it. So it's not processed, and it's much healthier for you.Sarah: How do you feel since you started this diet?John: I feel much better actually. When we eat carbohydrates, we can feel tired. Carbohydrates are in processed foods like anything that comes from grains. Like I said, bread, cookies, cake, crackers. They have lots of carbohydrates. And when we eat them, our body has to use lots of energy to digest carbohydrates. It takes away energy which could be used for doing activities. That's why if you eat lots and lots of bread and cake, maybe you feel tired.Sarah: Oh, I see.John: If you just eat fresh vegetables and fruit, you can feel like you have lots of free energy.Sarah: Are there any foods that you miss?John: I think the food I missed the most is pizza. Pizza was my favorite food before. I used to eat pizza three times every week. Now, I rarely eat pizza. Pizza has a crust. The crust is bread, so the crust has lots of carbohydrates. Also, pizza has a lot of processed meats including pepperoni and sausage. Those meats are not very healthy for you. Also, pizza has lots of cheese on it. Cheese is another processed food. So if we cut out pizza from our diet, we can eat healthier and feel like we have more energy.Sarah: Well, that's great. Thanks for telling me about paleo.John: You're welcome.

Sarah: Okay, John, let's talk about fashion. You know, I have students and I think sometimes they don't, they don't dress appropriately for the classroom.John: Oh yeah. Sometimes, it looks like students are wearing the clothes which they will plan to wear at night, to go out and go to a party with friends.Sarah: Yeah. So actually, I think school uniforms are great. I would make the teachers wear the school uniform, too.John: I agree with you.Sarah: Because I think when we talk about appropriate clothing, I think girls very often take the most of the blame for that. But I think it's our society, and we can fix the problem by having a uniform for girls and boys and teachers, and we can feel like part of a team.John: I know there are a lot of problems of school uniform. First of all, students don't want to all dress the same.Sarah: Hmm.John: But there's other problems. Usually, when schools have a uniform, the boys wear pants and the girls have to wear a dress or a skirt. I don't think that's fair.Sarah: I agree. I don't think that's fair either. I think a lot of schools these days they can let the girls choose. And so the girls can wear shorts or pants.John: Well, that's good. I think even beyond the pants or a skirt issue, there should be some flexibility to customize your uniform, whether you want to wear shirts that are a different color, even if they're in the same style. Or you want to have some pins or patches or some other accessories.Sarah: Do you think as a teacher, would you say something to your student if your student if your student came to class and maybe, for example, it was a boy and his pants were very low and you could see his underwear. Or maybe it was a girl and you thought, "Oh no, her shorts are a little too short." What do you think you would do?John: Hmm, wow, that's a difficult question. I have to say, I don't think I have been in that situation. I guess I'm lucky enough my students haven't pushed the limit too far. But I feel that I would say something if a student came to class in clothing that was, in my opinion, too inappropriate. I would ask them to, probably to, if not leave the class, at least don't wear clothes like that next time.What about you?Sarah: Well, I had a student, and he came to class with a jacket. And it looks like a very expensive jacket but it had a very bad word written on the jacket.John: Oh.Sarah: And after class finished, I told him to, "Wait, please." And I told him that he probably shouldn't wear that jacket to class, or maybe, he shouldn't wear it anymore at all. It just isn't very appropriate. And he came to class next time and he had the jacket but he had taken it to a shop and they had taken the bad word off of the jacket.And so, I was very happy to see that, that he changed his behavior and now he could dress the way he liked but also be appropriate.John: Well, that sounds very good. That's very effective.

Sarah: Okay, John, let's talk about fashion. You know, I have students and I think sometimes they don't, they don't dress appropriately for the classroom.John: Oh yeah. Sometimes, it looks like students are wearing the clothes which they will plan to wear at night, to go out and go to a party with friends.Sarah: Yeah. So actually, I think school uniforms are great. I would make the teachers wear the school uniform, too.John: I agree with you.Sarah: Because I think when we talk about appropriate clothing, I think girls very often take the most of the blame for that. But I think it's our society, and we can fix the problem by having a uniform for girls and boys and teachers, and we can feel like part of a team.John: I know there are a lot of problems of school uniform. First of all, students don't want to all dress the same.Sarah: Hmm.John: But there's other problems. Usually, when schools have a uniform, the boys wear pants and the girls have to wear a dress or a skirt. I don't think that's fair.Sarah: I agree. I don't think that's fair either. I think a lot of schools these days they can let the girls choose. And so the girls can wear shorts or pants.John: Well, that's good. I think even beyond the pants or a skirt issue, there should be some flexibility to customize your uniform, whether you want to wear shirts that are a different color, even if they're in the same style. Or you want to have some pins or patches or some other accessories.Sarah: Do you think as a teacher, would you say something to your student if your student if your student came to class and maybe, for example, it was a boy and his pants were very low and you could see his underwear. Or maybe it was a girl and you thought, "Oh no, her shorts are a little too short." What do you think you would do?John: Hmm, wow, that's a difficult question. I have to say, I don't think I have been in that situation. I guess I'm lucky enough my students haven't pushed the limit too far. But I feel that I would say something if a student came to class in clothing that was, in my opinion, too inappropriate. I would ask them to, probably to, if not leave the class, at least don't wear clothes like that next time.What about you?Sarah: Well, I had a student, and he came to class with a jacket. And it looks like a very expensive jacket but it had a very bad word written on the jacket.John: Oh.Sarah: And after class finished, I told him to, "Wait, please." And I told him that he probably shouldn't wear that jacket to class, or maybe, he shouldn't wear it anymore at all. It just isn't very appropriate. And he came to class next time and he had the jacket but he had taken it to a shop and they had taken the bad word off of the jacket.And so, I was very happy to see that, that he changed his behavior and now he could dress the way he liked but also be appropriate.John: Well, that sounds very good. That's very effective.

Sarah: All right, Adam. So we're going to talk about lifestyle choices. First question for you is would you rather have a roommate or live alone?Adam: I've had some really good experiences with roommates, but right now I live alone. And I really enjoy to have my own space and I like to keep it a certain way. I'm kind of a clean person, so I probably choose to live alone.Sarah: Okay. That leads me to my next question which is house or apartment. So if you choose to live alone, would you like a house or an apartment?Adam: I'd love to live in a house. Right now I live in an apartment and it's okay. But yeah, I really like the outdoors, and like to have a yard or a small garden or something would be great. So I love, like, privacy. I like to play my music really loud or something, so in a house maybe I could do that. And in an apartment, it's a bit difficult.Sarah: So a house usually means a pretty big commitment of like where you're living. So if you could have a house anywhere where would it be?Adam: Maybe in my hometown. It would be nice to have a house in Seattle. But I am not a person that likes to be tied down so much, so that would be kind of tricky for me. Apartments are also nice too because you don't have the upkeep and the responsibility that you might have with a house. So that is nice. I wish I could just have a house and just move it with me wherever I go.Sarah: So if you could move that house anywhere, would it be like a town or a city, like what do you prefer?Adam: I'd definitely live outside of the city, but close enough to where I could commute within like 20 minutes, 30 minutes to be able to go shopping and do my everyday life. But I like peace and quiet and nature, so definitely outside of the hustle and bustle of the big city.Sarah: So how about pets? Would you like to have a pet or not have anything or one live in your house?Adam: I love animals. I have always wanted to have a dog or really, any sort of pet. But I move so much that it makes having a pet difficult. So I've never really had one although if I ever do settle down somewhere, I would absolutely get maybe several pets. I love, I love animals.Sarah: Nice. Thanks.

Sarah: All right, Adam. So we're going to talk about lifestyle choices. First question for you is would you rather have a roommate or live alone?Adam: I've had some really good experiences with roommates, but right now I live alone. And I really enjoy to have my own space and I like to keep it a certain way. I'm kind of a clean person, so I probably choose to live alone.Sarah: Okay. That leads me to my next question which is house or apartment. So if you choose to live alone, would you like a house or an apartment?Adam: I'd love to live in a house. Right now I live in an apartment and it's okay. But yeah, I really like the outdoors, and like to have a yard or a small garden or something would be great. So I love, like, privacy. I like to play my music really loud or something, so in a house maybe I could do that. And in an apartment, it's a bit difficult.Sarah: So a house usually means a pretty big commitment of like where you're living. So if you could have a house anywhere where would it be?Adam: Maybe in my hometown. It would be nice to have a house in Seattle. But I am not a person that likes to be tied down so much, so that would be kind of tricky for me. Apartments are also nice too because you don't have the upkeep and the responsibility that you might have with a house. So that is nice. I wish I could just have a house and just move it with me wherever I go.Sarah: So if you could move that house anywhere, would it be like a town or a city, like what do you prefer?Adam: I'd definitely live outside of the city, but close enough to where I could commute within like 20 minutes, 30 minutes to be able to go shopping and do my everyday life. But I like peace and quiet and nature, so definitely outside of the hustle and bustle of the big city.Sarah: So how about pets? Would you like to have a pet or not have anything or one live in your house?Adam: I love animals. I have always wanted to have a dog or really, any sort of pet. But I move so much that it makes having a pet difficult. So I've never really had one although if I ever do settle down somewhere, I would absolutely get maybe several pets. I love, I love animals.Sarah: Nice. Thanks.

Sarah: So Adam, today we're talking about do-overs. So what is something that you wish you would have done over? For example, maybe something in your university life?Adam: Yeah. There are a few things. I might change my major. I studied education, and while I enjoy what I'm doing right now, my free time I really like watching movies about science and astronomy. And if I would go back to school and start my studies over, I'd probably study something along those lines, astronomy and metaphysics or something.I think that those topics are really interesting and on the cutting edge of science and just fascinating to explore.Sarah: Interesting. Anything else you wish you would have done?Adam: I might have been more involved in the sports clubs at my school. For example, the American football team. I played in high school but in college, I wanted to play but I didn't have the motivation to push me over the edge to actually go out and really put my heart into it.I went to one training day and kind of tried out, but I didn't really pursue it as much as I would have liked. I think it would have been fun to be a part of that culture and that environment.Sarah: How about something that you did do that maybe now you wish you hadn't?Adam: I pierced my ears in high school because that was the cool thing to do. But now I don't wear earrings. And yeah, looking back on it, kind of just a silly thing to do that I'm trying to follow the trends, that, you know, trends usually pass.So yeah, that would be something that I wouldn't do again.Sarah: Nice. Anything else you would have changed?Adam: I might have made different decisions about my girlfriends at the time. I had a really good girlfriend in the beginning of college, and things didn't work out because of a variety of reasons. But I think if we would have worked on it, we could have. We could have made it, made it happen. So yeah, that's something I think about sometimes about life in college.It's always, you know, college love is kind of a crazy thing. So yeah, we're too much like kids, I guess, I think at that age.Sarah: Okay. Thanks, Adam.

Sarah: So Adam, today we're talking about do-overs. So what is something that you wish you would have done over? For example, maybe something in your university life?Adam: Yeah. There are a few things. I might change my major. I studied education, and while I enjoy what I'm doing right now, my free time I really like watching movies about science and astronomy. And if I would go back to school and start my studies over, I'd probably study something along those lines, astronomy and metaphysics or something.I think that those topics are really interesting and on the cutting edge of science and just fascinating to explore.Sarah: Interesting. Anything else you wish you would have done?Adam: I might have been more involved in the sports clubs at my school. For example, the American football team. I played in high school but in college, I wanted to play but I didn't have the motivation to push me over the edge to actually go out and really put my heart into it.I went to one training day and kind of tried out, but I didn't really pursue it as much as I would have liked. I think it would have been fun to be a part of that culture and that environment.Sarah: How about something that you did do that maybe now you wish you hadn't?Adam: I pierced my ears in high school because that was the cool thing to do. But now I don't wear earrings. And yeah, looking back on it, kind of just a silly thing to do that I'm trying to follow the trends, that, you know, trends usually pass.So yeah, that would be something that I wouldn't do again.Sarah: Nice. Anything else you would have changed?Adam: I might have made different decisions about my girlfriends at the time. I had a really good girlfriend in the beginning of college, and things didn't work out because of a variety of reasons. But I think if we would have worked on it, we could have. We could have made it, made it happen. So yeah, that's something I think about sometimes about life in college.It's always, you know, college love is kind of a crazy thing. So yeah, we're too much like kids, I guess, I think at that age.Sarah: Okay. Thanks, Adam.

Todd: Okay. So Sarah, I see you eat soup every day at work. Why are you eating soup every day?Sarah: That's because I love to cook soup.Todd: So you make the soup?Sarah: Yes, it's very easy to make.Todd: So you cook it and then you just bring it to work everyday?Sarah: Yeah. I just make a lot on Monday and then I bring it to work everyday of the week.Todd: Oh nice. So how do you make the soup? What's your secret?Sarah: Well, I like to cook very easy. So I buy meat that's already cut up, usually, chicken and then some rice, usually brown rice and then I buy some vegetables. So after I bought the ingredients, I chop them up and I put them all together in water until boils and add some seasoning.Todd: Okay. So you say the water boils, so as soon as the water boils that's when you put in all the ingredients?Sarah: Yes, that's right.Todd: So you don't put in the ingredients before the water boils.Sarah: No. I guess, it's just easier for the water to be hot because then the vegetables and the meat cook a little faster.Todd: So how do you give the soup flavoring?Sarah: I usually add salt and pepper, maybe some garlic. And depending on the type of soup, either maybe some soy sauce or lemon juice.Todd: Okay. Do you put in the flavoring after you put in the ingredients or before you put in the ingredients?Sarah: Maybe after but usually, right about all at the same time.Todd: Okay.Sarah: So I just put everything in at one time.Todd: And then after you cook the soup, do you put the soup in the refrigerator? Do you let it sit outside?Sarah: I usually eat some right then, and I also put it in containers for the week. But I let it sit in the containers out on the counter for a while for it to cool before I put in the refrigerator.Todd: All right. And so, you don't put it in the refrigerator until it is cool?Sarah: Until it's about room temperature.Todd: Okay, nice. And then how do you heat it up? Do you heat it up in a pot or do you heat it up in the microwave?Sarah: In the microwave. It's the easiest.Todd: Yeah. Nice. So you make enough for five meals?Sarah: Maybe, sometimes. If I think I will get tired of eating it during the week then maybe I'll just make enough for three or four meals. But if it's some kind that I think is really delicious and I know I want to eat it everyday, then I'll make a lot.Todd: Well, if that happens, when you make the soup, you can make it for six or seven and give me a bowl.Sarah: Okay. I'll do that next time.Todd: Oh great. Thanks.

Todd: Okay. So Sarah, I see you eat soup every day at work. Why are you eating soup every day?Sarah: That's because I love to cook soup.Todd: So you make the soup?Sarah: Yes, it's very easy to make.Todd: So you cook it and then you just bring it to work everyday?Sarah: Yeah. I just make a lot on Monday and then I bring it to work everyday of the week.Todd: Oh nice. So how do you make the soup? What's your secret?Sarah: Well, I like to cook very easy. So I buy meat that's already cut up, usually, chicken and then some rice, usually brown rice and then I buy some vegetables. So after I bought the ingredients, I chop them up and I put them all together in water until boils and add some seasoning.Todd: Okay. So you say the water boils, so as soon as the water boils that's when you put in all the ingredients?Sarah: Yes, that's right.Todd: So you don't put in the ingredients before the water boils.Sarah: No. I guess, it's just easier for the water to be hot because then the vegetables and the meat cook a little faster.Todd: So how do you give the soup flavoring?Sarah: I usually add salt and pepper, maybe some garlic. And depending on the type of soup, either maybe some soy sauce or lemon juice.Todd: Okay. Do you put in the flavoring after you put in the ingredients or before you put in the ingredients?Sarah: Maybe after but usually, right about all at the same time.Todd: Okay.Sarah: So I just put everything in at one time.Todd: And then after you cook the soup, do you put the soup in the refrigerator? Do you let it sit outside?Sarah: I usually eat some right then, and I also put it in containers for the week. But I let it sit in the containers out on the counter for a while for it to cool before I put in the refrigerator.Todd: All right. And so, you don't put it in the refrigerator until it is cool?Sarah: Until it's about room temperature.Todd: Okay, nice. And then how do you heat it up? Do you heat it up in a pot or do you heat it up in the microwave?Sarah: In the microwave. It's the easiest.Todd: Yeah. Nice. So you make enough for five meals?Sarah: Maybe, sometimes. If I think I will get tired of eating it during the week then maybe I'll just make enough for three or four meals. But if it's some kind that I think is really delicious and I know I want to eat it everyday, then I'll make a lot.Todd: Well, if that happens, when you make the soup, you can make it for six or seven and give me a bowl.Sarah: Okay. I'll do that next time.Todd: Oh great. Thanks.

Not many people trade in both a successful finance career and the chance to get a Harvard diploma for the opportunity to launch a business. But that’s what Sarah Paiji Yoo did. And when she found success and sold her first company, she knew that she could never satisfy that entrepreneurial itch by doing anything but building another company. Sarah went on to co-found a start-up studio and helped launch a number of other companies, including M.Gemi and Rockets of Awesome, but she craved more. Ultimately, she wanted to dig into something that served a deeper purpose.  Today, Sarah is a co-founder of Blueland, a consumer products company on a mission to eliminate single-use plastic packaging. The way Sarah and her team are accomplishing that mission has started with creating a new way to develop and use cleaning products and has included a stop along the way in the Shark Tank, where Mr. Wonderful himself, Kevin O’Leary, bought into the company.  On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Sarah sheds light on common mistakes that young entrepreneurs make when they are starting out, as well as shares the secrets for avoiding those mistakes. Plus, she explains what the holy grail metric is for judging the health of your company.  3 Takeaways: In the early days when you only have one or two products that consumers buy, it’s easy to keep track of how people get funneled through. As you begin to expand your product offerings, measuring acquisition behavior and retention becomes more important in being able to judge the health of the company and the new products brought to market.  The importance of focusing on product-market fit can’t be overstated. Often, young companies and their founders get caught in the trap of trying to please investors or race to profitability through clever marketing or other shortcuts. The only way to achieve meaningful, sustained success is to know you have product-market fit from the get-go, and then optimizing your strategy from there.   You can still do something even if you don’t have all the pieces to the puzzle. Even though an idea seems simple, there are always going to be complications to work through. Being tenacious and having grit are the keys to being able to see you vision through to completion. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey, everyone. This is Stephanie Postles, your host of Up Next in Commerce. Today we have Sarah Paiji Yoo on the show, the co-founder and CEO at Blueland. Sarah, how are you? Sarah: I'm great, how are you, Stephanie? Stephanie: Doing well. And you're calling in from New York, right? Sarah: Yeah. Good, old New York City. Stephanie: Yeah, how's New York life right now? Sarah: New York life, it certainly feels ... It's funny, because I feel like in the beginning, we definitely were the hotspot of coronavirus. But now it feels like one of the safer places to be, given the high immunity. So, it's good. I think it's a little unfortunate that summer now, it's my favorite season in New York, so, it's unfortunate that we're still, for the most part, having to stay at home. But I think we got in our groove and it has definitely given at least my family the opportunity to force ourselves to find other ways to explore nature right outside New York City. Stephanie: So, I'd love to dive a bit into your background before we get into Blueland. Because I read some interesting things about you about having some Ecommerce companies in the past and dropping out of Harvard MBA program and I'd love to hear a bit about your journey of how you got to where you are today. Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. So, I guess if I were to start way back, I started my career actually pretty traditionally in finance and consulting. Certainly early in my career I actually had no aspirations to be an entrepreneur. I always consider myself relatively risk-averve so it is interesting to see how life unfolds. But yeah, I started my career very traditionally after those stints in consulting and finance, which I actually wouldn't trade for the world. I really appreciate the experiences and the skillsets that I picked up and the frameworks it gave me to really think about the world and business. Sarah: But after those stints I decided to go back to Harvard for business school, to really, most of all to be able to have the time to step back and reflect on what it was that I wanted to do next. Because I think my early experiences, if anything, taught me that I wasn't a lifer in terms of professional services, I really wanted to be more in the driver's seat and wanted to be at a company versus advising the company. And so, yeah, I made the decision to go to business school. And when I got to business school it was a really interesting time because there had been, right before I came, a series of female founders that had started very impressive companies, GuildCrew, Birchbox, Rent the Runway, LearnVest, Katrina who started Stitch Fix with just one year ahead of me in business school. Sarah: And that was extremely inspiring for me just to see a set of women who were young and had a very similar background or set of experience as myself and see them so quote, unquote, early in their career, setting out to build their own business. And I decided that given business school ... You can make what you want of business school but it doesn't have to be particularly rigorous. And so, I had more time on my hands than I did previously what I was working in, so I decided to really use that time and try to start a business while I was in business school. And a few months in I ended up starting work on my first startup, which was Snapette, which was a mobile shopping app that helps consumers find products and stores around them. Sarah: I was really excited about everything that I was seeing around smartphones and the mobile space. And this was still pretty early on. So, this was almost 10 years ago, pre Instagram days, if you can imagine a world before Instagram. Stephanie: Tough world to start in. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, that's the first business I decided to start while in school. I ended up raising a round of venture capital that summer between my first and what was supposed to be my second year of business school. And so made ... it was actually a very easy decision, to drop out of Harvard and continue to just work on Snapette. And I ended up scaling that business for the next about three and a half years to a small team, about 20 people. And then we ended up selling that business to one of the world's largest stock search engines at the time, called PriceGrabber. Again, almost four years in. And- Stephanie: That's amazing. What was the process like, selling the company? Did you actively go about selling your company or were you approached? Or how did that look? I heard a good quote the other day that companies don't just get acquired, you actually need to actively go and sell your company if you want it to be sold sometimes. Sarah: It's interesting because I've also heard the opposite. Stephanie: Oh, interesting. Sarah: Which I can related to both [inaudible 00:05:48]. I was actually worried with the phrase, but we were lucky in terms of we received an inbound. Stephanie: Oh, nice. Sarah: That tipped us off to, "Oh, this might actually be a good time to sell. And the context of that period was, I started Snapette at a time when Mary Meeker and a lot of these industry experts were saying, "Oh, mobile's going to be the future. People are going to spend more time on their phones than on their desktop," and that seemed inconceivable, the early days as she was saying that. And when we sold, that's when we were seeing about 30% of site traffic, to many of the major sites coming from mobile instead of desktop. So, it still hadn't flipped yet. Sarah: But it definitely felt like it was coming. And so, yeah, we had an inbound from a traditional, online, non-mobile player. And that kick started me to reach out to a few more folks in the space that had a similar profile, because if we were going to engage in these conversations I thought, "Let's run a robust process," because obviously competition can always help drive a better outcome. And so that's what I did. And ended up not really engaging a bank or anything. That's where my former finance experience definitely did come in handy because I did have experience buying and selling companies and so I understood ad a high level what that process looked like. And so, yeah, we were able to quarter back that process in-house and get a few offers and ultimately find an acquirer for our business. Stephanie: That's amazing. So, at that point you got the itch to start another company? You're like, "This is great. I'm going for round two." Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. So, initially we had ... Not initially. We had a one year lockup with the parent company. And so our whole team moved over. And it was interesting, I think initially I was extremely excited about the prospect of being part of a much larger organization, that had much higher revenues and much larger budget. And I didn't expect how quickly ... I feel like day one, post-acquisition all of a sudden, the speed at which we were running, everything came to a halt. And all of a sudden my calendar was full of just meetings with lots of people back to back. Sarah: And I think it was hard. I think it was hard going from also this small, mobile startup where Apple would make an announcement about the newest feature and then I would get together with my team and our engineers and really think about like, "Oh, how can we integrate this? How can really use this to push our product forward?" And in a larger organization, completely understandably you have much longer product roadmaps, you need to justify why a change that you want to make is going to add more value to the company than some much larger initiatives that maybe underway. Sarah: And we were dealing with 18 month, plus product roadmaps, which to me at the time felt like, "Oh my god, if I have to wait 18 months to start working on some of these things, I'm going to be dead." So, it was an interesting contrast for me. And so, I certainly, definitely developed that itch to go back out and start something again. And I think also as a first time founder with Snapette, I had made so many mistakes along the way. And I was just dying to do it again but be better the next time around. Stephanie: So, then where did you go after that [crosstalk 00:09:35]? Sarah: Yeah, so after that, it's interesting, because I think ... my career, my life had been so linear til pre Snapette. But I think that startup journey really showed me both the joys and the benefits of just being being open to what life may bring and that really just reaffirming the Steve Jobs quote, "If you can't connect the dots forward, only looking back." And so, at that point I knew I wanted to get back into early stage company building. I wasn't proactively looking for my next business or the next idea, but I ended up reconnecting with a former acquaintance in the Ecomm space, Ben Fischman, who had also sold his startup, Rue La La, which was one of the first flash sale sites here in the U.S. Sarah: And he had sold his company right around the same time I sold Snapette. And he was exploring the idea of raising a fund and to start a series of new businesses. So, it wouldn't be a venture capital fund, but it would be more like a startup studio. And the thesis that we both share was that, at this point it was 2013, we believed that it was still very early innings in terms of direct-to-consumer. So, at that point Warby Parker was our, in way, that preeminent example of direct-to-consumer. But it was our belief that we would continue to see whole categories move direct-to-consumer, and many of which we've seen now come into fruition. I remember at that point thinking about, "Oh, we're going to see everything from shoes to socks to tampons to vitamins, etc. Everything is going to develop a new brand and find more efficient ways to directly reach and communicate with consumers." Sarah: And so, yeah, he was like, "You should come do this with me." And at that point, again, I didn't have a specific idea in mind. I knew that I wanted to be back in the company building stage. I loved the tech and direct-to-consumer space. And so, yeah, I jumped onboard with him and was a founding member and partner of that team. And so, that startup studio was called LAUNCH, or is called LAUNCH, it's still around today. And the goal was to then launch one new business per year, which is what we ended up doing. So, over the next four years we launched M.Gemi in our first year, Rockets of Awesome. M.Gemi is a direct-to-consumer footwear business. And then we launches Rockets of Awesome the second year, which is a direct-to-consumer subscription kids apparel business. And then we launched Follain, which is a clean beauty retailer. And in the last year that I was with LAUNCH, LAUNCH Trade, which is a direct-to-consumer coffee marketplace. Stephanie: Very cool. How did those individual companies do? Sarah: The individual companies have all been doing great. They're still around today, very proud of how far they've come. But it was definitely a crazy time. Certainly in a period where we've seen over funding and collapses, you know many important DTC businesses I think very proud to say that all those businesses are in great shape and still around today. Stephanie: Yeah, that sounds really fun. Chaotic and crazy but fun. Were there any universal truths that you learned? Even though the companies sound very different that you were launching there, was there anything that you found a best practice and then you could apply it to future businesses? Sarah: Yeah, I think the biggest takeaway, probably from launching multiple businesses is just the importance of focus and the importance especially of focus on product market that in early days I think it's very easy, especially when you are venture backed, either with access to capital or with this immense pressure to grow quickly, to grow into the valuations that you may have raised that it can be easy to fall into the trap to shift a lot of your focus to marketing and growing. But ultimately the best marketing is an amazing product or service that drives strong retention, strong word of mouth. Sarah: And any marketing spend that you deploy is going to be so much more efficient and effective if you don't have a leaky bucket. And I think that's one that is certainly harder, especially in this world where we celebrate large fundings and also companies growing very quickly. And I just think there's so much value, especially early days of almost staying smaller so that especially the founders can really focus entirely on product-market fit and making all the tweaks necessary to really optimize the product, service or offering. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree about that. How did you all go about finding or knowing when you had product-market fit? Were you like, "This is the one, let's move forward."? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's hard to draw that line in the sand, for sure. I think an important metric or area of metrics to look at certainly are around retention and repeat. Because ultimately there is a lot of focus, especially in D2C, on acquisition. And whether it's customer acquisition cost or cost per acquired customer, ultimately, that doesn't give you the full picture. That just tells you that you were able to have a clever ad and maybe you have attracted someone to make that first purchase. But it's certainly a lot cheaper to have your customer purchase again and repeat with you than having to go out into the market and pay for a brand new customer. And so, we've always been extremely focused on the retention metrics as a leading indicator to help the business. Stephanie: Yeah. yeah, that's great. So, then, at what point were you at LAUNCH where you were, once again, "It's time for me to move on, do my own thing again."? Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, I had a crazy journey and it was an amazing ride. I learned a ton about launching new business, having to do that back to back. But I think after my fourth year, after the fourth business, I developed a deep seated desire to do something that was a little more personally meaningful. I think for so many years simply the challenge and excitement of bringing a new brand or product to market that had never existed before was enough for me and it was incredibly energizing. And I still love that aspect of it. But at that point I was looking to build something beyond selling more shoes or beauty products. Sarah: And I think that also was heavily influenced by my becoming a new mom around that time. So, it's not coincidence that the number of years I've been working on Blueland is about the same number of years as my son's age. Stephanie: Yeah, it's funny how all of a sudden, same with me, you get interested in what's organic and what's actually natural and- Sarah: Hard to miss it. Stephanie: Yeah, it's something I never paid attention to that much until having kids. Sarah: Yeah, no, exactly, exactly, exactly. And I think you also start questioning how you're spending your time. You have very limited time, and thinking once you have children and a family it highlights more clearly for you the trade offs between work and rest of life. And I think, I was very open to how I would feel on the other side of motherhood. I was very open to maybe I wasn't going to want to work at all. Maybe I was going to be so obsessed with my child that I was going to want to spend every waking moment with him, which would also have been a fine outcome. But interestingly, after having my son, for me, I realized that I still really did love working. I loved my work a lot but I think I just needed to find more meaning in it if it was going to take up so many hours of my day and taking away from my child. Stephanie: Cool. So, then, what was the first step when it came to ... what really led you to creating Blueland? Was there an aha moment, was there something ... Tell me a little bit about what Blueland is maybe first and then how you came up with the idea. Sarah: Yeah. So, Blueland is a consumer products company, we are on a mission to eliminate single use plastic packaging. And we are starting with cleaning products. And so, the first set of products that we launched, when we launched about a year ago were a set of cleaning sprays and hand soap. And what was really unique about our products was that instead of selling you a bottle of liquid, these products are traditionally about 90% water, we've shrunk these products down to these tablets that are about the size of a quarter so that instead of buying a new plastic bottle every time, instead of paying for all this water which you already have at home, you can use one of our beautiful, reusable bottles and simply fill them up with warm water, drop in one of our tablets and it starts to bubble on its own, there's no shaking or stirring or weird chemistry required. And at the end of a few minutes, you have a full bottle of hand soap or cleaning spray. Stephanie: Yeah, that's cool. Sarah: And our cleaning sprays include a multi-surface cleaner, glass and mirror and a bathroom cleaner. Stephanie: Yeah, it remind me of a Alka-Seltzer, where you drop it in and then all of a sudden you have this big big bottle of cleaning solution. Sarah: Exactly, exactly, exactly. And we stared there because we found that it was very intuitive for people even though it was something that had never been done before, it was brand new to market, it was something that people could see and quickly understand like, "Oh, that makes sense. That water and the tablet can make a bottle cleaner." And so, yeah, those are the products we started with. Happy to say last month we released our newest category which is the dish category. So, we launched a dish soap and dishwasher tablets. And in a similar vein, these products were created as part of a reusable, refillable system. So, upfront we sell you a permanent, forever container that you can refill with our refills that come packaged in paper based compostable packaging instead of plastic. Sarah: And so, our dish soap is actually a powder. But it's used very similarly to liquid, to the extent that you just sprinkle it directly onto your sponge, you add water and then you get a nice, rich foam. And yeah, our dishwasher tablets are naked, to the extent that they don't come individually wrapped in that plastic film that you'll find, with most all dishwasher packs. Stephanie: I've never really thought about, "Where does that film go? Does it just go down the drain? Sarah: Yeah. So, it's unfortunate because it- Stephanie: That's sad. Sarah: Yeah, it is sad. It is sad. Because I think the assumption for a lot of people, understandably, is that because it dissolves, that it just goes away. But unfortunately, because it is a synthetic petroleum based plastic film, the plastic molecules do still remain and enter our water systems and majority of it is then ultimately released into the oceans, rivers and anything else. Stephanie: So, when building this company, I read that you had reached out to over 50 manufacturers who all turned you down. And I wanted to hear- Sarah: Oh my goodness. Stephanie: I wanted to hear that story a bit, because I think most people maybe after 10 woudlve been like, "Well, it's not possible." Or, "We can't find how to contain these tablets." Or, "No one knows how to do it." Tell me a bit about what was that process like when starting to build the products out and trying to find people to partner with to make them? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I think a big piece of being a entrepreneur, it's not rocket science, it's just being tenacious and having grit and not taking no for an answer and not assuming that because it's never been done, that means that it can't be done. And so, yeah, I think when we initially came up with this idea for Blueland, it was a crazy idea. And we had a lot of questions from people like, "Well, if it's so easy, why hasn't it been done?" And we're like, "Well, somebody has to be the first." Sarah: And so, yeah, initially, the natural place to start was to reach out to manufacturers, because typically, whether it's in the food space or the cleaning space or in the beauty space, a lot of these spaces are fashion. A company usually works with a contract manufacturer to actually make their products. And so, first choice was finding someone with the existing infrastructure that could just make this for us. Not surprising, in retrospect, hindsight's always 20/20, that no one could do this for us. We were reaching out to cleaning products manufacturers who were creating these products as liquids, and they were pretty much telling us how, "We don't know how to deal with solids, like we don't even have tableting machinery. And in fact, many of the ingredients that we buy for our liquid products actually come in liquid form. And so not even sure how we would then transform that into a dry product." Stephanie: But did you have an ingredient list? Were you like, "This is what I want in it?" Because that [crosstalk] seems hard to me of like, how would I make a multi-surface cleaner? Sarah: Exactly, exactly. So, in the beginning it's just this huge chicken or egg problem. So, we reached out to many manufacturers. And at that point it became also just less so in terms of ... we didn't necessarily think we were going to find an end-all, be-all solution with one of these calls but our hope was that we were going to get enough smart people in the space, who had been in the space for decades to talk to us in each of these conversations, we were going to glean a little bit more information. And if they couldn't do it, they would potentially know someone else who could. Whether it was a scientist ... because a lot of these contract manufacturers also work with contractor chemists, et cetera, they might know of an ingredient that they heard of that would be able to help us do this and so it really was just our form of Googling around, when Google could only get us so far on these niche topics that no one had a reason to read up about online. Sarah: But yeah, I think it became apparent through these conversations that someone was going to be able do just do this for us and everyone was recommending that we would need to come to them with a formula. And at that point felt like we hit another wall because my co-founder and I, we didn't have any chemists in our direct network. We had no idea where to even begin. We were both business people. And so, we, after asking our network, not really finding any leads to any reputable chemists, certainly no chemists with a cleaning products background, we just turned to LinkedIn. Stephanie: Ooh. Sarah: That was just a natural place to turn to, to be able to search for experts based on their experiences and at that point ended up going down another, very long rabbit hole of collecting ... We still have that spreadsheet today of hundreds of names of chemists that we found on LinkedIn and wrote up what their background was and ranked them and then just started reaching out to them, just [inaudible] reaching out to them on LinkedIn and just trying to get as many people as we could on the phone with us, like we were doing with the manufacturers. Stephanie: Did you get a good response rate from people or was it slow? Sarah: It was definitely slow. In LinkedIn there's all these limitations of if you're not connected, they may not readily see your message, also turns out a lot of chemists aren't actively checking their LinkedIn or messages. We also were just two random people that were messaging about this crazy idea that most recipients on the other side probably had like, "I don't know how to do what they want to do," or, "This idea seems crazy," or, "Why are they soliciting me for a job? Why would I leave my big company, well paid job to go do this?" Sarah: So yeah, I think suffice to say response rate wasn't great. But to some extent, it also was a numbers game, which is why we did reach out to so many people. And we were able to get a good number of people also just to get on the phone with us. And there definitely were a set of folks that we're so thankful to that were inspired by our mission and the audacity of at least the vision, and were willing to chat to see if they could be helpful. And that is ultimately also how we found our incredible head of R&D, Syed, it was through LinkedIn. Sarah: He was formerly at method, which is one of the world's largest non-toxic cleaning products companies. And prior to that, he had the perfect background because prior to cleaning products he was actually working in nutritional supplements. So, vitamins. So, he also had that hard, tabled-like form factor experience. Stephanie: That's amazing. So, how many tablets are you selling today? And how much plastic is it removing from the environment if someone chooses that versus a normal alternative? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. For us today, I forget the latest numbers. But we've sold tablets in the millions- Stephanie: Wow. Sarah: ... at this point, which is exciting because that means that our impact has also certainly been in the millions of plastic bottles eliminated. I think people are always surprised to hear that five billion plastic cleaning bottles are discarded each year, because there is so much focus on the water bottles and the coffee cups and the straws. Rightly so, because those numbers are even larger. But people are always surprised to hear how much of ian impact you can do by also just swapping out your cleaning products to a reusable solution. Stephanie: Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. Nice work. So, I'm guessing there has to be some kind of convincing and education factor that had to go on because a lot of customers at first, they all worry about maybe the anti-microbial factor and everyone's probably ... at least when I think about it I'm like, "Just throw some Lysol on it or bleach or something, that'll clean up anything." How do you go about convincing people that your product has the same benefits and even though it's natural, it'll still work? What does that education piece look like? Sarah: Yeah. So, that education piece is obviously so important and has become even more important during this period of time and COVID where people are very focused at keeping germs, bacterias and viruses at bay. We received, especially in March and April, that was the number one question that we were getting, especially around hand soap, actually. Where people were asking if our hand soap was antibacterial, whether our hand soap would kill COVID. And there we were very direct with the answer that ultimately, no, our hand soap is not antibacterial, it's not disinfecting, we cannot make the claim that it kills COVID. But it was an educational moment for us because at that point we could start the conversation with consumers that also are rooted in many studies that suggest that antibacterial soaps might actually be doing more harm than good, as well as if you look at the FDA, they've made official statements that say, "Regular, non-antibacterial soap is effective for the removal of bacteria and viruses," and that hand washing with plain, non-antibacterial soap is a great way to prevent the contraction and spread of illnesses. Sarah: And so, I think most people that hear that get it, and it will even link them to the FDA site on proper hand washing techniques and just to just reassure people this, "By no means are we looking to mislead or brainwash," but that it's just more the education of, you know, many times I think there's this perception you need a certain set of ingredients to get a certain job done. But- Stephanie: It's part of the marketing behind that too, for people who do have the antimicrobial stuff in it, they're pushing it so hard, "You need this," when I've read the same research about you actually don't really need that and you can still have very clean hands afterwards. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly, exactly. And so, it's been nice. It's been a nice period where we can also provide that education, because we are staunch supporters of non-toxic formulations. And so, any opportunity that we have to speak more to the efficacy of non-toxic products as well is always, we think, a good thing, not just for us but for the broader industry and for people on the planet. Stephanie: Yeah. So, how do you get people to find you? I'm thinking, if I'm going to the grocery store, that's maybe where I'll pick up a cleaning product when I run out or something. Are you in retail or were you planning on going into retail before COVID or are you staying strictly B to C? Or how are you thinking about that? Because it seems like it'd be hard to bring people over to buying online when maybe they've never thought to do that unless it's through maybe Amazon Prime or something, I don't know. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. No, it's definitely one of the larger areas of friction that we recognize. To the extent that it's interesting when you think about it from a direct-to-consumer perspective or context because I definitely went into this eyes wide open, as to this is a category that's going to be harder to convince people to go to a separate, online destination to buy the products. Because in my past, I've been in shoes, I've been in apparel, I've been in beauty, and for all of those, especially something like shoes or swimwear, I would argue it's easier to convince someone for a one-off special purchase, like glasses, to go to a separate destination. Sarah: But to your point, with the cleaning products, this is a product that even early surveys have found that over 80% of people would prefer to just purchase these either in brick and mortar stores or just as part of the shopping that they're doing regularly anyways, whether it's weekly or biweekly grocery shopping, whether it's all on Amazon or at their local Target or Walmart. And I think that because of that, retail will definitely have to be an important part of our future. At the moment we are still a most all direct-to-consumer business. We have a handful of retailers that we sell through but still pretty minimal like we're with Goop or with West Elm, we're with Nordstrom. But I think- Stephanie: Those are some pretty good names. Sarah: Yeah. Those are definitely great names, but those are more I think we still view brand enhancing names and not necessarily the place where people are going to every week to traditionally buy these products. But I think it all comes back to focus and we also always knew that direct-to-consumer was going to be an important component of launching the brand. I think there's so many benefits, especially from a brand building and story telling perspective and explaining the mission and as a new brand to market just explaining who we are. And it's certainly an efficient enough channel to be able to get to early adopters and a set of consumers. But we do believe that if we are going to truly maximize our environmental impact and reach as many households as we can, then absolutely, we do need to, at one point, go into retail, physical retail and traditional retail. Stephanie: Cool, so, how do you get in front of the early adopters that you just mentioned? What kind of digital channels are you exploring? How are you doing your marketing? How are you finding customers and bringing them back? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Instagram has been an invaluable channel for us, especially on the organic side. I think we've had great success there. So, we've been live for probably just about a year now, we have over 170,000 followers on Instagram, all of it organic. We haven't really done any paid influence or promotion or anything. And I think it's really helped that because our mission is so integrated into our product offering, we are a mission driven company but that could mean different things for different companies. And for some companies that means it's a donation that they're making or a philanthropy in addition to whatever their core product or service is. And for us, our mission is just 100% integrated into the products that we sell. And that's given us the ability to, on social speak across a range of topics and speak more broadly about climate change and plastic pollution and tips on how we can each do our part. Sarah: And it's been so exciting to see how much that's resonated with the community on instagram and how quickly we've grown and it certainly is one of our largest channels. So, it's exciting to see that organic is something that that can work for a direct-to-consumer brand. Stephanie: Yeah, especially if you have that. Sustainability is a hot topic right now and like you said, if you're able to lean into those groups and people and tags and stuff, that opens up a whole new market where maybe other DTC companies who are just trying to sell their product and create brand new content, very different. So, it seems like that'd be a very helpful way to get new customers and access to an audience that maybe you wouldn't get access to otherwise if you weren't building a sustainable product. Sarah: Definitely, definitely, definitely. And it's also been a really great amplifier for word of mouth. I think we're fortunate that we have a product that people feel more inclined to share. So, everyday we get hundreds of people story-ing our products and their unboxings. And I think that's being driven by two things. One is just the mission I think that gives people a real reason or additional reason to want to share our product with their friends, because also saving the planet is something that we have to do together and they understand that the more they can raise awareness for things that help this planet, to their friends and community, the better place we'll all be in. But also, our products are very visual and experiential. The process of making the solutions, dropping the tablet, showing the tablets dissolved. Sarah: I was very worried, before we launched Blueland that that would be one of the largest hurdles to our success because undoubtedly it is more work for a consumer than just going out and picking up a bottle of solution. But I think it's hugely benefited us, especially in a world with video, Instagram stories, et cetera. Stephanie: So, when you're thinking of the health of Blueland, as you're building it, what kind of metrics are you looking at? Specifically maybe around your website and how to know if you're really doing well? Sarah: Yeah, it's definitely starting to get a lot more complicated now that we have so many more products. I think early days it was a lot simpler ... I would say early days it was a lot more straightforward given ... I think over 90% of our new customers were coming in through the same kit. They were all purchasing our four piece kit. And because it that initial basket was pretty uniform, it was much easier to track those cohorts over time and understand both acquisition behavior and success as well as retention behavior and success. I think now, as we look at our business, there's a lot more granularity. We've layered in more fragrances, we have at this point I think six different kit permutations that you could opt into. Sarah: There isn't a clear kit that all new customers opt into. We also have many people that are adding refill packs now to their kits and their first purchase, which changes the way we have to think about repeat curves and retention because a customer, if they're loading up a dozen multi-surface cleaning tablets in their first purchase, that's actually a great thing for business. It drives higher AOP, it's certainly also better for the environment because we're only shipping that package to them once and they may not need another package from us for a year, at least on the multi-surface cleaner side. But as you can imagine, we then need to look at our data in a much more nuanced way and cut in so many more different ways to really understand what is happening. But yeah, largely we are very focused on customer acquisition cost, the conversion on our site at every part of the funnel and then repeat basket size based on original basket size and channel. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. So, is there any best practices when all of a sudden you have a lot more data to work with and you're trying to actually see trends and parse out the noise. Is there anything that ... I'm assuming with your finance background, you're probably already very good at data. I also have a finance background and how long I had to be in sheets and looking at numbers all day was crazy. But, you do learn how to actually parse through large data sets. Like, what are some best practices that you say worked when it came to expanding your product catalog and actually trying to find trends and things to pay attention to? Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. I think the main thing is making sure that you're being thoughtful about the tests that you set up and setting them up in a way where the data will be valuable and also just taking into account what you're in or how much volume you're getting and so not trying to test too much all at one time. Because I think, and I bring up testing because sometimes it's hard to look at just the organic data that you're getting and make a determination as to what the value drivers are. So, for example, a question that we're trying to solve at the moment is that, are there better kits for people to start on? Do we have a preference as to, is the customer going to be more likely to stay with this? Is the customer more valuable if they buy into kit one very kit four? Sarah: And it's hard to look at the data that you have without setting up a clean test because there maybe other factors that have driven certain consumers to a kit one versus a kit four, that would then make their retention characteristics different. So, to do a very clean test, you would want ideally place randomize and drop off a set of consumers to either kit one or kit four and then see if those two cohorts perform differently over time. Sarah: But it's just making sure that we're being really thoughtful with the test, making sure that there's not other confounding variables that we're introducing, like for example making sure we're using the same ad creative to drop people off on kit one versus kit four, taking into account, again, how much traffic we expect to drive, how quickly that test will wrap up. Because certainly you could think, "Well, we're going to do this test for kit one through seven and do seven kits that we're landing on." But it may also just take forever to get any type of answer of statistical significance if we're dividing up our volume in that way. Sarah: Yeah, so things like that. But certainly something that we're thinking a lot about and is certainly far from straightforward. Stephanie: Yeah, tough problems to solve but I'm sure very informative and helpful for the future. So, I know we don't have too much longer but I did want to ask, we've been on a Shark Tank kick lately, we've been a couple of companies who've been on Shark Tank before you as well, and I wanted to hear- Sarah: Awesome. Stephanie: ... very high level, doesn't have to be a really long story, but how the experience was for you and how you dealt with the increase demand and your inventory and everything that came after being on the show? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What a wild experience. It's always actually been facetious, half serious dream of mine to go on shark tank. So, it was really exciting. I think we over prepared every step of the way, which was right in terms of I don't say that negatively. But everything from leading up into the pitch, to making sure that we were ready from a site perspective. Our team still says today that we've never been so prepared for anything outside of Shark Tank. Stephanie: That's amazing. Sarah: So, it's something that we always point to, even with our new product launches or other things that we're trying to do. Because especially in startup world, you're rushing, it's never ... And we always point to, "Look how well Shark Tank went, because we spent the time, we were organized, we put the time in and it definitely pays off." Stephanie: What kind of things did you prepare? If you were to look back and say, "These two things were the best things that we did to prepare? Or what were some of the levers there that you were working on? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, I think before filming on that side, it really was all hands on deck, full team for that week leading up to our Shark Tank filming we pretty much focused on Shark Tank. Especially Syed, our head of R&D and myself were going to go into the tank. But even the rest of the team, we were required probably at least twice a day, for about an hour and a half each, so about three hours a day, whole team would be on just grilling us every which way, with the hardest questions they could throw, with the most inappropriate questions they could throw at us. Stephanie: That's fun. Sarah: It's fun. And it was, in the beginning it definitely was incredibly embarrassing because it was so hard. You're just like ... But after that, it really did prepare us for anything that could come our way in the tank. So, that was great. Including lots of, they just threw lots of mental math at us, which if anything, I don't know if they got us better at mental math that it got me better controlling my facial expression when I didn't know something. Stephanie: Yeah, or just delaying the response so long they forget what they asked, maybe? Sarah: Exactly, exactly, exactly. So, that was very valuable. And then from a site perspective, we really did everything we could possibly do to make sure that the site didn't come down. We spoke with a lot of other companies who had aired on Shark Tank to get their tips for what to do, and that was really helpful. Like the guys at Plated had a landing page ready. Because their site did go down. And so, they were very thankful that they did have a landing page ready to capture email addresses. And they were able to capture a ton of email addresses that way and then email the people when they were back up and running. So, we did that. Someone, another company had a really great idea to swap out all the videos or gifs we had running through the site. So, anything that was heavy that takes up a lot of speed or memory and just pairing back to replace all the videos on our site with images. Again, just to lighten up the site as much as we can. Stephanie: Cool. Yeah, that definitely seems like some good due diligence. And you guys ended up getting a deal, right? Sarah: Yeah. We ended up getting a deal with Kevin O'Leary, who has been fantastic and really supportive and shockingly accessible. Stephanie: I was going to ask that, do you actually get time with him and is he actually helpful? Sarah: Yeah, yeah. We get a lot of- Stephanie: Give me all the gossip. Sarah: Yeah. We get a lot. Early days, I was like, "Is this too much time? I have other things to do." But we probably speak by phone or text once every two weeks or so. And definitely- Stephanie: Wow. Sarah: Yeah, yeah, and [crosstalk 00:52:50]- Stephanie: That's way more than I actually thought. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, in early stage I feel like I was talking to him multiple times a week, especially right coming off of Shark Tank when we had a lot of opportunities and he brought us onto QVC the week after Shark Tank aired. Stephanie: Oh, nice. Sarah: We've done multiple press interviews on TV together. It's been great. It's been really great. Stephanie: That's really cool. Yeah, thanks for sharing that story. So, now we're running out of time. Is there anything you wanted to cover before we jump into a quick lightning round? Sarah: No. I think we covered a lot of ground. Stephanie: All right. Cool, well, let's jump into the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud, this is where I will ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer with whatever comes to mind. Sarah: Okay, great. Stephanie: Are you ready, Sarah? Sarah: Yes, let's do it. Stephanie: All right. I'm going to start with the hardest question first because you've been in the industry for a while and I feel like you'll have a good answer to this, what one thing will the ... Oh, let me rephrase that. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year? Sarah: Ooh, in the next year. Oh, that one's harder. In the next year ... I would say packaging. It's a non-traditional answer. But I do feel like we're seeing the tides are shifting. I've just started to receive my first set of Amazon packages that for once are coming in paper based envelopes instead of plastic based envelopes. And I think that's going to send a great signal to the industry of, "We need to be a lot more thoughtful about with all this Ecommerce comes an incredible amount of packaging waste and consumers are becoming so much more knowledgeable and mindful about the waste that they're creating." And I think we'll start demanding this stuff of companies. Stephanie: Love that answer. What's up next on your reading list? Sarah: What's up next on my reading list? So, I've been incredibly inspired by the Black Lives movement, Black Lives Matter movement. And so, I have picked up a ton of books in that process. And my next one actually, by my bed right now is White Rage. Stephanie: Nice. And have you started it yet? Sarah: I have not started it yet. Stephanie: Cool, we'll have to circle back and let me know what you think of it. Sarah: Yes. Stephanie: If you were to build another company, which I feel like you will probably be doing in your lifetime, what would that next company be? Sarah: Oh, geez. That's so hard, that's so hard. that's so hard because I love the company I'm building at the moment. I always tell my co-founder that I don't think I'd want to sell this business because I don't know what I would work on next. It's just an incredible mix of product development, science and really doing things that I believe will make a huge difference in the world, as well as just educating people in areas outside of our products, which has been incredibly gratifying, just being able to talk about ... Email's probably a couple times a month and certainly social posts multiple times a week where we're just talking about things that have nothing to do with our products but just ways that you could cut out single use plastic from your day to day life. I do think that if I do move on past Blueland, it certainly is going to be something around the space as well in terms of where- Stephanie: Sustainability. Sarah: Sustainability, exactly, sustainability and climate change. Stephanie: Cool. It would seem sad to throw away all the knowledge. I've heard that quite often where a lot of times founders will just get eager to move onto the next thing and they don't always properly value all the knowledge they built up either from their current company they're at or what industry they're in. And so, yeah, that seems great. Sarah: Totally. Stephanie: What's up next on your Netflix queue? Sarah: So, next up on our Netflix queue is season two of The Politician. I know I'm a few weeks late, but I've actually heard that ... my husband and I loved season one and we heard season two there's actually a lot of focus on plastic pollution and there's actually a character who's really leading the charge on eliminating plastic from her and other day to day lifestyles, so, it'll be interesting to see their spin on that. Stephanie: Yeah. No, that sounds cool. Yeah, there's also a series, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's with Zac Efron, which at first I was like, "No, how is he going to do a series on big problems and sustainability and things like that?" It's actually quite interesting. They ... Sarah: Oh. Stephanie: I'm trying to think what it's called. Maybe producer, Hilary can look that up for me and put it in our notes here. But yeah, he went through, first he visited Iceland and was showing there all of the renewable energy that they generate for Iceland. And then episode two was talking about water and it went into France's water system and how they purify it in a much better way than a lot of places in the U.S. do it, so, another one to just put on your radar. But I don't know the name of it, I just know Zac Efron's hosting it. Sarah: No, that's great. I haven't seen him in anything since High School Musical so I'm actually- Stephanie: I know. Sarah: ... excited to see him all grown up. Stephanie: I know, when I saw him on there I was a little bit confused. I was like, "Wait, what?" And then I was like, "Okay, yeah. You're doing a good job. This is cool." Oh, let's see, Hillary put it in there. Down to Earth with Zac Efron. Pretty good one, very interesting. Sarah: Great. Great, great, great. I'm going to add that to my queue. Stephanie: All right. And then the last one that I've recently started asking, what is the number one tool or app or technology that you use day to day that's most helpful to you or that you either learn the most from or that you loved the most? Sarah: Yeah. It's got to be Instagram. I wish I had a more creative answer but ... Stephanie: No, I love Instagram. Sarah: ... I learn so much from others and from incredible resources and I think most recently I think the Black Lives Matter movement has been an eyeopening one for me in so many ways and I think in so many ways that we're trying to even as a company make sure that we are sustaining that moment, but really have been grateful for that platform as a source of education. Stephanie: Yeah, yeah, completely agree. All right, Sarah, well, it's been so much fun talking to you about this. Where can people find out more about you and Blueland? Sarah: Yeah, so, people can check out our products and learn more about our products at blueland.com. You can also follow us along @blueland. And I also post lifestyle tips frequently to my personal account, @spaiji. That's S-P-A-I-J-I. Stephanie: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show and we will definitely be following along in your journey. Sarah: Amazing. Thank you so much for having me.  

Staying Efficient in Business With Sarah Stein Josh: Gday everyone out there in podcast world. We've got Sarah from Miss Efficiency. We're going to be talking today about how recession-proof your cash flow through efficiency in business. Sarah actually wrote a pretty cool white paper on how to remove paper from your business, which, I guess a bit of an interesting way of looking at it. So Sarah, in business, people are freaking out in business at the moment. If you're still in business, hopefully, what would you say is the number one way to stay efficient, and make sure that you keep your head on the right numbers? Get more tips on how to stay efficient in business at dorksdelivered.com Sarah: So Josh, I think it comes down to the systems that you put in place, and that is, a lot of the time it's the technology that you put in, but there are lots of other things outside of technology that you can do as well. So you know, there's so much technology out there, it can be very overwhelming and we can get overwhelmed with the choice. And then you can get overwhelmed with, you know, jumping at the next shiny thing all the time. So constantly, you're putting new things in place just because it's new and does some whiz-bang thing. But what you might have had already. I think we all are. And I have to pull myself back and think, hang on a second, do I actually need it? It's like anything like, do we need it? Do we need the new car is our current car doing exactly what we need it to do? And it's still safe and you know, it's the same with the technology in your business. So I think when thinking about the systems that you want to put in place in your business, go right back to basics, and map it out on paper. Map out what your objective is like what you actually want to get out of it. And then once you've got that mapped then you'll know which technology to put in place because your map is going to be your guide. So I think there are a few key ones. There's a lot of personal preference because a lot of technology does the same thing. You've got your MIB, Xero and QuickBooks, for example, like I prefer Xero. But there's pros and cons with all of them. So I think to have really good accounting software in place, and then something really good to keep track of your workflow depending on what your businesses and then something to keep track of your customers, and your leads, and, you know, CRM, if you like so that you can keep in front of everybody. So to answer your question, map it out, and then decide what you need. And then, you know, it can evolve and grow from there. It doesn't mean that because you've decided on this today, that's how it needs to stay forever. It just evolves as your business needs change. Josh: You're talking before about do you need this card? Do you need an upgraded car? Is this car fine? I'm guilty of being fooled, I'm going to use the term “fooled” into selling a perfectly good car to make sure that the image that I was representing was what was required by the business and it made no difference at all. No one cared about my car whatsoever. I dropped out a perfectly good car that was perfectly functional, the four-wheel-drive that I still have now is still perfectly fine and functional. But oh, man, what a ripoff. Just coming back to like what you need in your business. And what is the tech that would be good to check out. You told me the different accounting packages, obviously. You touched on some bits and bits about leads versus customers and stuff, which we'll talk about in a bit. But what is the good tech to check out? Sarah: I would say talk to your bookkeeper or your best agent, but you know, you've ruined that, you've ruined that. I think in this instance, cars aren't really our forte. But I think definitely talk to the people who are experts in using it. Do some research. Don't do too much research online because there's too much information. I know if I go online, yeah, there's just too much and it's too overwhelming. And it's like, that's all too hard. I'm not going to do it. Talk to other business owners that you know. So I had a phone call today from a client who was with a friend of theirs who is in a different business to them. So all my clients are on Xero and the friend of theirs was on MIB. And he was having trouble and he was thinking about converting over. So my client got me on the phone, we had a three-way conversation and you know, I could give them some information about MIB and Xero and a few other bits and pieces. So talk to other business owners that you know who are friends because they have a vested interest in it. So they are going to tell you the truth. And it's good to get in You know, other people's perspective, like how we would use Xero for my existing client would be different to how we would have used it for this other business owner. So definitely do your research. But I think, also come in prepared with the knowledge of what you need. So coming back to my scenario before about mapping out what you need. Think about what your current processes are, and evaluate what's manual, what's electronic, what's taking you the most time, what's the thing that you push around your desk the most before you realize, you know, you actually have to do it now. And then think about what your workflow is, what you would like it to be if there's something that you want to be able to do that your current systems don't allow you to do, to have a really good idea of what your needs are. So then when you talk to an advisor, they can say, okay, well based on that, this is what we would suggest to put in place, and based on what your needs are. We have a conversation with people to try and find out what they are currently doing what they would like to do and where they see their business in a few years’ time because maybe what's going to work for them. Now, that might not work in five years’ time. So if we don't think about the bigger picture, you might be doing the wrong thing. So do some research, educate yourself have a clear idea of what you want to get out of the system. And then you can have a really good conversation with an accountant or agent who can help you then put it into place. Josh: That makes a lot of sense. And I know that when I started the business, I decided I'm going to learn everything and I'm going to be the person who wears all the hats and develop the software that worked exactly as I wanted to. I hated the idea of bookkeeping myself, and so I learned everything I could about it, so that I could try and do it in an automated way. I ended up just spending too much time making this software instead of working in the business. Fast forward 12, 13 years we've got fantastic options out there like Xero, mostly online products that do 95% of the reconciliation. And as long as you've got the good bookkeepers in there that can make sure that when there is an anomaly, they're picking up on that and striking that out and making sure that they bring the attention to and fixing it. And we're in a better world now than when I first started building all this stuff out. One thing that I have found, though, is that we introduce into our software stack a better way to manage inbound leads and making sure that we were able to see if people were interested in our services. We’re making sure we're able to see what stage they are at, which is a very different kettle of fish to a lot of the managing an existing customer that's already spending money with you that you're making an invoice and doing service with. When it comes to that, do you differentiate? Or do you see a reason to differentiate between prospects leads and customers? Sarah: So when I first started my business, I was a very good bookkeeper. And I had to learn that I had to be a better business person, because it didn't matter how good I was at, you know, bookkeeping. If I was a crap business person, then I was going to have a crap business. So I had to learn all of these things very, very quickly, and it was a very steep learning curve. And I'm by no means the expert. So, I don't really differentiate leads and prospects. I just think that either clients or soon to be clients. And that's it. And I am quite, I don't know if basic is the right word, but I like to keep things simple. Because we were super busy and we're highly systematised and you know, there's a few of us in our team, we want to make sure it's easy for everybody to follow. And I think if you over complicate things, that's where, you know, cracks start to show. So we use a program called Active Campaign. I can't remember what the other is called. It's like the monkey is the logo. MailChimp. Yeah. So that was great. But all I did was send out the occasional newsletter, and it probably did a lot of things that I didn't do, but that was my failing rather than MailChimp’s failing. But then I moved into Active Campaign and I love Active Campaign. And as part of my onboarding process, like I have quite an extensive onboarding process, but Active Campaign drives a lot of that for me. So everybody goes into Active Campaign, I've got a download from my website. So once you download that, their information goes through. If people book online appointments with me, it goes through Calendly. Again, that automatically filters through to Active Campaign. So I think it's really important to capture a lot of this information, but it's really important to use the automation to do it for you, so that you can concentrate on the gold nuggets. But one of the things that I do so I send out regular communications and with the recent COVID events, I was sending out lots of information because I'm conscious of not bombarding people with too much information, but during that period, there was a lot of stuff to get out. So I was sending just about an update out every couple of days, just about, and I got so many messages back saying, this is amazing, thank you so much for sending it through, it's really nice to be able to have this information come through and we don't have to, you know, try and find it and work our way through. And these are comments from people that aren't even my clients, you know, so that was really great. Josh: The beautiful thing about that, like if you're producing that without like it, you're producing that and throwing bloody Aussie accent and I understand what you're blooming saying as opposed to some of the legislative legal crap you read on some of the government, nothing against the government websites, but you just read it you go, okay, why did Betty bend. Some of the examples I'm reading, this makes no sense. This is too hard. Sarah: I think they try to make it so simple. They actually overcomplicate it. Josh: Oh, absolutely. I had a look, and I read the sentence twice. And I thought, okay, I missed the comma on the first time, and it completely changed the meaning of the sentence. And I bought that to my account. And I said, How do you interpret this? And this was on one of the cash flow stimulus things. And he interpreted it in the polar opposite way that I did. And we ended up coming to a conclusion that yes, he'll do some more research and find out the answer for us like, you're exactly right. It can make it more complicated than what it would be helpful. Sarah: Yes, yeah. But one of the really cool things just coming back to Active Campaign, which is one of the things that I love about it, is when I get a new client. So in the old days, I would send them an email because I'm very much a word skill. I will always say the name up before I pick up the phone, although COVID has changed that slightly, but in the old days, I would send a new client an email that was, if they'd printed it out, it would have been 15 pages long with all of the information that I thought that they needed to know. And you know, realistically I know that they're not going to read that, because who has time to read a 15-page email seriously. So one of the things that I've done in Active Campaign is part of, you know, a few other programs that I've got linked together when a new client comes on board. I haven't onboarding automation that triggers through Active Campaign. So as soon as they get the tag on their contact, if you like that they are now a client. This automation automatically triggers and it's basically that 15-page email drip feed out over a number of weeks. So it's not too much information for this client to read. And, you know, the very first email is basically saying welcome. And that's it, you know, it's like a couple of paragraphs, and that's it. Then the next day, they'll get one saying, this is what you can expect next. And that's it. Just, you know, there's images in it and it's nice and pretty and easy to read. Then a couple of days later, they'll get one that introduces them to the team. How they should communicate with us. And then three days later, they'll get one that shows them how to set up receipt bank. Within this time period, I'm working in their file and have set up receipt bank. So it's all really nice and seamless. And so it gets the information to the client that I need them to see. It gets delivered to them in a format that's easy for them to read. And it's just keeping those touchpoints. So the I think there's about 10 emails that they get delivered out over the course of six weeks. And by the end of it, you know, we might have done the best, we've pulled everything together. It's just a really nice introduction. I think that's the way that I intend for the relationship to be so that's how it starts. And it's setting some really nice groundwork at the beginning of the relationship. Josh: Similar to what you said actually on this. I started off the same. I was fantastic at I could cure cancer for computers. But if that said on the show, it's not going to be any benefit to anyone. So I had to become better at marketing and better business in that sense. What you've said there, you've increased the amount of touchpoints, you've decreased the friction on them not reading the email saying I'll do that later, because it's too long. And I'll tell you right now, I've got two emails sitting there. He said, he's attached a Word document, he said, look on page four, section three, that's a bit of thing is going to be most interesting, but make sure to read the whole lot first. And I was like, ah, I've got other stuff to do. You've removed the friction, which is great. You've increased the touchpoints, which is great. You've built these all in an automated way, which means you're not sitting there having to do this or group it to them. Out of interest did you build it all out yourself? Sarah: I’m a bit of a control freak. So I did do it myself. But I'm super proud that I was pregnant and I've had the baby in the end of it. There was this baby. It's like, yeah, look what I did. So it was very, very cool. I really, really enjoyed doing it. and it was completely outside of my comfort zone, but Active Campaign is amazing. I mean, they're American based. I think they have some, some support people in Australia, but they were just awesome. I did have a couple of little triggering issues. But I got onto the support team, and they helped me and that was just, it works brilliantly. So I've done a few of those now. So yeah, and I love Active Campaign. Josh: You're preaching to the preacher, okay. Not a half years ago, and we started using Active Campaign thought it was absolutely the best thing since sliced bread. And it has just never ceased to amaze us. Every single part of it's amazing Sarah: But some of your listeners that might be thinking, ah, that's just too hard. Or they might jump in and think, oh, you know, it's really, really complicated. It's really not. I'm someone who deals with technology every day, but I have my little comfort bubble as well. And so when I first started with Active Campaign, it was way outside my comfort zone. The person that put me on to Active Campaign, I said, you know, I'm a bit of a technophobe. And he's like, what do you mean? You are the biggest propellerhead I know. And I'm like, so funny but he would say that. But I didn't know it. I just was a little bit patient with myself and kind to myself, you know, I can work this out. And there are hundreds of people that will do it for you. If you want someone to maybe just build the bones of it for you. And then you're good to run with it. Yeah, I did it myself because it's a bit of that control thing. I think it's great and like I said, this heaps more that I could do with it, but this is working for me at the moment. Josh: I think it's something everyone should be having in business. It is a lifesaver for us. My partner Sarah, her whole business is set up completely in Active Campaign. This podcast sounds like a commercial for Active Campaign. But her business, hair and makeup business from start to finish is completely Active Campaign. People come through on her website, she's able to see if they've clicked through from AdWords, she is able to see where their sources are, if they fill out a form, once they fill out the form and then sends them a welcome email and then a would you like to get a quote and then they fill out a few bits and pieces since them off a quote. She's asleep watching and then they've already got a quote they've already got a tentative date in mind, she has a quick phone call with them, make sure that they're all happy to understand what they want. And there's nothing out of the ordinary that they're looking to get to this special day. Then after that automatically sends across into her calendar takes all the payments and sends out for review emails in bits and pieces later. She's managing a team of five staff, the meat and gravy that the most of it is all Active Campaign. So I think it's great and it's definitely a tool that makes businesses more efficient. I'm really happy to hear you using it. Something that when we talk to businesses a lot of time they're like, oh, what's Active Campaign. Oh no, we use MailChimp. It's fine. And from your perspective, when you took the leap, how would you for someone who is using MailChimp without throwing dirt at them, like, how would you say the differences between the two products? They're both great products, but they’re both different products. Sarah: Okay, so I think it's like doing your accounts in Excel and then going to Xero. You know, they both give you the same outcome. They both do the same thing, you're tracking your expenses or whatever, but there's just, you know, it's just a lot prettier. It does an awesome job, it’s easier for you. There's less grunt work. And, I enjoyed it, I didn't mind MailChimp, it was easy for me to use, but literally, all I did was send newsletters, and I didn't do it very regularly. I was pretty useless at being regular. I didn't track any of the reporting. I'm pretty sure it does do some automation, but I didn't know about it and didn't know how to do it. And I was probably on the free version. So I didn't see the value in it, maybe if I was paying for it, I would have worked harder at it. So I don't think actually, it's an issue with MailChimp, it was a totally me issue. But then when I moved to Active Campaign, I just noticed all the bells and whistles that may or may not be in MailChimp. I think making the move to it, it had a mindset shift for me as well about okay, I've got to get serious and I've got to do this. So I've been in business 18 years, I moved to Active Campaign within the last five years. So it just goes to show that you don't have to have all of your ducks in a row within the first year or two. And, they're constantly moving anyway. You know, sometimes I'll make a big change to my business or you know, there'll be a big shift, and there often is at various times and I often referred to myself, as you know, a 15-year-old startup or an 18-year-old startup Because it seems so new now because we've made such a big change. And it doesn't mean that necessarily you were doing things wrong before. It just means your business has changed and you've evolved with the way that you do things. Josh: The Excel versus Xero analogy. I'm going to use again if that's okay with you, that's amazing, that's perfect. In my opinion, MailChimp is fantastic at making campaigns or newsletters. It's not fantastic at allowing for touchpoints and customer attention and interactions and seeing what they're doing on your website and how they're working with you and tagging and then integrating into other systems, and Active Campaign has its campaigns. And if you're comparing the two, Active Campaign’s campaign module versus MailChimp is what I'd say is about the same but it's just there's so much more in Active Campaign versus MailChimp. But if anyone is interested actually in checking out a little bit more on how some of this automation can work, Sarah has got a little gift for you. And that's if you jump across to Missefficiency.com/book, you can jump on there. She's got the ability for you to check out how to save up to five hours, is that right of your workweek? Sarah: Yes. So there's a free download on my website, which gives you the tools to be able to, say, five hours a week and your business. It basically comes back to systems and technology. And, that's all it is. I think you can be, anybody can build a great business that I think the fundamentals comes down to people, technology, and the systems that you put in place. I've actually written a book, and like, it's not a download. It's an actual book, and it's all about systematising your business. It's called “Wow, I'm in Business... Your Journey From Overwhelmed to Organised”, and I did write it based on an experience that I had with a client. So one of the other programs we use is Dropbox, which you there's lots of other programs that are similar to that. That's just the one that we use. But I had a client, that's still a client, they own a pub in Central Queensland. And they've had it for a while. And the client rang me one day during the week and said, You know, I'm completely overwhelmed. I need you to come and just sort things out. And we'd already put in place Xero and you know, a few other bits and pieces and I'm like, Oh, okay. She says, you just have to come. So she booked me on a flight. And the next Friday, I was heading up there, and I spent the weekend there. They live about an hour and a half from the airport. So she'd come and pick me up and I had known her for a long time. She came and picked me up from the airport, and we were driving out there. And I could tell that she was super, super stressed and just wasn't herself, because I would always see her in Brisbane and you know, she's bubbly and bright, and yeah, I could tell that she was really, really stressed and overwhelmed. And anyway, I spent four days out there, and I didn't do a great deal. So they've got a pub, a restaurant, a bottle shop and some cabin accommodation. We already had Receipt Bank and Xero. So I put in Dropbox so that she would have a place to store her information. I developed some forms for her staff so that she'd have employee packs. I developed some forms that could be used for bookings and accommodation. So we couldn’t put too much technology and because the internet up there is not always that great. So, I just did a few bits and pieces like that. I didn't think it was anything too major. It just seemed like common sense to me. But then when she was driving me back to the airport, she got out and she looked like a different person. It was literally like this huge weight had been lifted off her shoulder. And she told me, I'm so grateful to have you here and to do all of this stuff for me. I'm thinking, you know, I didn't really do a great deal but you know, and then as I was on the plane coming home, I'm thinking, you know, the transformation that I saw in her mindset and her presence and physically just within a few days of me doing something that I thought was kind of easy, got me thinking. By the end of my fight -it was about an hour and a half- I had basically written that book in my head. I was to take that overwhelm away and remember why you got into business in the first place, reignite that passion, because you can't put two systems and great things in place, if you are feeling burdened and bogged down. So the first thing that the book talks about is reigniting that passion. And then we can talk about putting systems in place. There's lots of templates and bits and pieces that you can download from the website. But it was kind of life-changing for me as well because I sort of took for granted how easy it is for me, but it's not always easy for other people. But it's the same effect if I turn it around if I go into some buddies business where I'm needing help, I'm completely overwhelmed, but it's really easy for them. So yeah, that's what the book is about. Josh: Well, I definitely think if anyone is interested in the book sounds like a great story that's I know I'm in the process of writing another book myself. One of my friends said, if you think reading books, try writing a book. What you said there is actually really, really good. Sometimes you have the knowledge and you take it for granted that everyone has that same knowledge and you've got these hidden gems that you help people out and they just overly grateful, and sometimes I felt I thought people were being like, taking the piss. If anyone is looking for a bookkeeper who goes above and beyond and is 100%, not your ordinary book make sure you contact Sarah, Miss Efficiency, she's going to be able to help you out. And as you can already hear from a wonderful knowledge, she's stubborn enough to stick in there and make sure that she's putting in the right solutions for you. Yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to go through before we finish off on the podcast? Sarah: We've probably touched on some really good stuff. Maybe we'll save this for another occasion. But I think cash flow would be the next conversation to have that can take your business to the next level. And particularly in times like these, you know, who would have thought there would ever be, you know, a pandemic in our lifetime. If that doesn't make you realise how important good financial literacy is, then nothing will. Josh: Probably save it for another time for the moment. It's own episode in its entirety, I think. But I really appreciate you coming on the episode and giving our listeners a bit of a view into the things that you do. Sarah: Thank you for having me. Josh: If anyone has any questions, make sure to jump across to miss efficiency.com.au, and leave us some love. If you have any comments and reviews for us, make sure to jump across iTunes. Leave us some love. Give us some feedback. And everyone, stay well out there with the COVID around the place and stay healthy.

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Resurrection Eggs: Creatively Sharing Christ Guest:                         Barbara Craft                                    From the series:       Resurrection Eggs: Creatively Sharing Christ (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: In 1994, a grandmother by the name of Barbara Craft heard about a way to use plastic Easter eggs to share the Easter story with friends, neighbors and children. She fell in love with the idea. Barbara: The idea that I like about this is you're getting the Bible in front of them—you're getting the Word of God. This is not just a story. We're using great things to tell a story. This is something—they may remember the donkey, the nails—but it's a way of engraving the Word on their heart and fulfilling Deuteronomy 6—you know, it says to talk about these things when you get up / when you're sitting in your house. This is, to me, what this project does. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, April 2nd. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We will hear some FamilyLife Today history today as we hear about the first time Barbara Craft shared with us the idea for what became Resurrection Eggs®. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. We have people who will pull us aside, from time to time; and they'll say to us: “You know who you guys ought to interview? You ought to have so-and-so as a guest on your program.” We often get some great recommendations from listeners who suggest someone that we ought to talk to. Dennis: We do. I agree. Bob: We try to dig and say: “Okay, what would our listeners be most interested in? What would be most helpful? What is the best kind of practical, biblical help we can give them related to marriage and family?”  I remember when somebody on our staff, more than 20 years ago, pulled me aside and said, “Do you know who you ought to interview?” And they told me about a grandma, who was on staff, here at FamilyLife. I have to confess to you, I thought, “Yeahhh, we're probably not going to do an interview with a grandma who's on staff.” You know? 2:00 Dennis: This is not just any grandma. This is Barbara Craft. She is a woman of the Word. She is a wife, a mom, a grandmother who has taken her role seriously. When she found out about a way to be able to bring the reality of Easter into her family—but also the families of her neighbors—she jumped all over it. Bob: This was a craft project she put together: —a basket full of plastic eggs—each one with a symbol of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Dennis: There must have been 25 to 30 different eggs in the basket that she brought in. Bob: I just thought: “How are we going to talk about plastic eggs on a radio program? People can't see it. It's a nice idea—“ Dennis: Well, we always are interested in helping families have an outreach to others. Bob: And that's ultimately why we decided, “Let's go ahead and have Barbara on.” I remember thinking, in the back of my mind, “You know, if the interview doesn't go well, we don't have to use it.” Well, the interview went fine; didn't it? 3:00 Dennis: It went so well, in fact—just a little bit more to the story. I don't remember exactly how it occurred; but as we were interviewing her, it all made so much sense. Somehow, we put our heads together and said: “You know, we really can't put these eggs in a basket and ship them in the mail to listeners who want them. I would think people would like to have a dozen of these eggs of their own.”  We thought: “What if you took a carton and filled it full of these eggs—with the objects that are in them that tell the story of Easter—that help a mom and dad, grandma / grandpa, or help a young family share Christ in their neighborhood with the world's largest Easter egg party? What if we had something like that?” Well, we put together a few of them— Bob: We put together 3,000 sets. Dennis: Were you out there? Bob: I was not out there. Dennis: I was out there—at our kids' junior high cafeteria. We worked all Saturday. I prayed over those 3,000 sets—I said, “Lord, God, I pray these don't end up in our warehouse for the next 20 or 30 years.” 4:00 Bob: We were putting little donkeys into one egg, and putting coins in another egg. Dennis: A rock representing the stone that was put in front of Christ's grave in another, and then, of course, there was the easiest one to assemble of all—which had nothing in it. Bob: That's right, the empty egg which represents the tomb. And here's the thing—we did the 3,000 sets; and we also made available a list so, if anybody wanted to create their own set, they could just—“Here, you need to find a donkey, and you need to find a little pebble, you need to find the coins…” and all that. “Get your own plastic eggs.” Well, we had people calling us saying, “We want multiple sets of those.” Those 3,000 were gone like that! That first year, we wound up assembling an additional 7,000 to send out to our listeners. Dennis: And I'm going to tell our listeners—I was not there on the second Saturday they had to be assembled. In fact, I think we found someone—a bunch of teenagers to be able to—[Laughter] 5:00 Bob: [Laughter] You scheduled a weekend out of town when you heard that was happening, as I remember. Well, today, we thought it would be fun for our listeners to go back and hear that very first interview, from 20 years ago, when Barbara Craft—that grandmother who was on staff, here at FamilyLife—came into the studio and brought the very first Resurrection Eggs that we had ever seen. [Recorded Interview] Dennis: Our table is covered with eggs here. It's really quite festive here, Bob. Tell us: “What do all these eggs represent, Barbara?” and, “How did you come up with the idea of teaching about Easter through an object lesson like eggs?” Barbara: Well, I didn't come up with the idea. I'm not a creative-type person. I'm one that sees an idea and I can go with it. I was in our home, teaching ladies how to do a craft project—using paper bags and paper twists—and making this soft, frilly basket that you see in front of here now.  6:00 Well, we were making the baskets. One of the girls mentioned this story of telling the Easter story with eggs. I had never heard about it. The next thing I knew she sent me a paper. It had just some Scriptures and things that you can use and put inside a plastic egg and tell the Easter story. Right away, I started making baskets for my neighbors—making sets of eggs from this craft project, and putting them in there, and just giving them out to whomever I could. Dennis: And what you've done here—you've composed a list that starts with, really, Palm Sunday and objects associated with that. You've just followed, chronologically, all the events of Easter and the verses that accompany them. You've selected objects that illustrate each of those events. Let me just pull out one of these eggs here—this one here—[jingling sound]—three dimes. Okay, Barbara, what does that represent? 7:00 Barbara: Well, that represents the 30 pieces of silver that Judas betrayed Christ for. Dennis: And out, beside that, you've got Matthew 27:3-5 so the children—or for that matter, the adults—are getting the opportunity to go to the Scripture to really study the Easter story. Barbara: Yes. Bob: I bet kids would have a great time figuring out what each thing inside the egg represents. Barbara: I did it in a Sunday school class of three- and four-year-olds at our church. I hid the eggs, and then they came in. Of course, there's that adventure of finding the eggs. All the eggs have a number on them. Then, we sat around in a circle; and they would give me their egg, starting with number one. We would open it up, and then I would ask them what it was.  Again, this was three- and four-year-olds—they were so still. Of course, they are just so excited because they want to open their eggs. They want you to hurry up and get to theirs.  8:00 And then they wanted to hide them again. They wanted to do it again, and again, and the hour was gone. The idea that I like about this is—you're getting the Bible in front of them. You're getting the Word of God—this is not just a story. We're using great things to tell a story. It's a way of engraving the Word on their heart and fulfilling Deuteronomy 6—you know, it says to talk about these things when you get up / when you're sitting in your house. This is, to me, what this project does. Dennis: I think there is a great need today, in Christian families, to do more than just crack open this Book; but to get our kids diving into it afresh—discovering their own insights and talking about the relevance of these objects in their lives today. “What is the symbolism of the nails and the verse that goes along with that?”—Christ's death on the cross. We have hope because of this—and bringing that hope to our kids—and maybe even using these eggs as an opportunity to lead your kids to Christ. 9:00 Barbara: And then, when you come to this empty egg—and again, that representing that He is no longer in that tomb—and then telling them: “Where is He today? He is seated at the right hand of the Father.” Dennis: I think it is so easy to just assume our kids understand redemption: “What sent Jesus to the cross? Why did He have to die?” It was our sin—our breaking of God's law—our fallen nature that sent Christ to the cross—and really created a need for God to step out of eternity, in His Son, to redeem us back to Himself and to write our names in heaven. Barbara: What you have just done is what I'm hoping that this project will do. Having something like this that you can see and touch—it is fun, and it has a powerful message to each one. Dennis: It really does. Barbara Craft, you have helped us, today, to be able to focus on that message. 10:00 I want to thank you for doing that because we can make Easter a profoundly simple and yet powerful spiritual experience—not only for us—but for our children, as well, and pass on a legacy to the next generation. Barbara Rainey: One of the things that I think is neat about this is that there are different applications for using it. For instance, you could use it like an Advent wreath at Christmas—and use one egg per day or one object and verse per day—leading up to Easter. Or you could take the ones and just use them for the particular event the week of Easter, starting with the triumphal entry on the Sunday before. Then, you could use the objects that happened on the Thursday before Easter, and then the ones that illustrate what happened on Good Friday, and you could walk your way through Easter week.  I think that there are lots of different ways that a family could use this, depending on the ages of your children or how you wanted to celebrate Easter together. You could talk this through and try one one year and try another another year, and see what works best for your family.  11:00 Barbara: I think that is right—and if you have them all out—where they can see them during the day, and touch them, and play with them, or whatever they're going to do with this—then, again, they're reminded of the Scripture: “What does this sword represent, to me, about Easter?” Or you could do that sometime during the day—again, asking, “Well, what do you remember about that sword we talked about three days ago?” It's just that continual remembering and reminding that we're so often told to do in Scripture. We don't remember it the first time. Barbara Rainey: Right. Bob: During the Easter season, a family could use these eggs to really spark their family devotions, whether it's at breakfast every morning—having a different egg on the table and opening it up, talking about what's in there, reading the Scripture. Maybe, at dinner or after dinner—go in the living room and have it—but it would just be a great way to give children a visual connection with the story so they're not just hearing it told; but they're seeing it with the symbols, right there, before them. Barbara: Maybe, you could hide the egg. There's always that—children love that element of seeking and finding. So, maybe— 12:00 Dennis: What do you mean—“children”?  [Laughter] I love to go on scavenger hunts. Barbara: Yes, I do, too. I do, too. You can hide an egg someplace; and whoever finds it that day could tell the story—that evening, at dinner. They could tell the Scripture that's with that. There's just a variety—I love hearing this creativity. That's what I am just hoping is going to come about as a result of this. [Studio] Bob: Well, we've been back in the archives, listening to a program recorded more than 20 years ago. Dennis: With a friend—a dear, dear beloved friend, Barbara Craft. Bob: It's good to hear her voice; isn't it? Dennis: It is. It is, and she couldn't have fathomed that this would go on to see more than 1.5 million dozen of these eggs distributed, all the way around the world. Bob: If she could have fathomed that, she would have come in and said, “Let me show you my copyrighted Resurrection Eggs.” [Laughter] Dennis: No, I don't think she would have. Barbara was all about outreach—wanting to share Christ with people. Bob: She was. Dennis: That's what prompted her in the first place.  13:00 Not long after we had Barbara here in the studio, we made a phone call to another grandmother. This grandmother may have been interested in sharing the eggs with her grandchildren; but it ended up sounding, to me, like that she was really excited about sharing them with her adult children. Bob: Yes. Her name is Cindy. She's a friend of Barbara Craft's. Barbara had shared the idea with her. So, we called her and said, “Tell us what you thought about the Resurrection Eggs.” [Recorded Interview] Cindy: When Barbara asked me if I would like these, I thought, “This is kind of hokey, but I like the idea.” And she had gone to so much trouble. So, I took them; and then, after I had them—when Easter came, I thought, “This is how I can do something in the center of my table after we come home from lunch.” I just decorated the table with them, and they didn't ask too many questions about it. When it was over, I just said, “We have a game we're going to play.”  14:00 I said: “The eggs all have numbers on them. As you turn them up, we need to try to decide, whatever is in the egg: ‘What does that represent that has to do with the biblical account of Jesus' resurrection?'” I was amazed at how they enjoyed it. They had a great time with it. So, that is something that— I know now I can have on my table every Easter, and it won't make any difference. It will be wonderful now when the little ones can come and participate. But no, I used it with adult children. And they didn't know what all of them were. It took a little while; but even one of my children—that is not so much in church now, but very well-trained—he enjoyed that. I thought, “That is not cramming it down their throat.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Cindy, I want to thank you for being on FamilyLife Today and sharing your story with us. Cindy: You're quite welcome. Bye-bye. 15:00 [Studio] Bob: That's a phone call we made 20 years ago to a grandma who was using Resurrection Eggs—not with her grandchildren—but with her adult children. Just in case listeners were wondering, the other voice they heard there was a young Dennis Rainey. [Laughter] Dennis: It did sound a lot younger; didn't it? [Laughter] There's another phone call we made to Leah. She had three daughters that she wanted to share the story of Easter with. Bob: And this became a tradition for her family. [Recorded Interview] Leah: I've been just mesmerized; and to this day, we've done it for probably four years—it's kind of a tradition. Bob: Now, how old were the girls the first time y'all did this? Leah: Probably two, four, and six. Bob: Do you do it on Easter? Leah: No, we kind of use the week before Easter to prepare our hearts to worship the risen Lord on Sunday. So, it's not just Sunday that we worship on and observe Easter. Dennis: Leah, how do you involve your husband, Gene, in the process of sharing the eggs with your children? 16:00 Leah: Well, one thing that is really neat to do is Gene will hide the eggs in a certain room, and have the children find the eggs. That way, it makes the story of Jesus' resurrection a treasure to find. If they find the eggs, that's their reward—the Word of God is their reward. It's just a very creative way to share the Easter story with children because they love to see what's inside of something. In one of the eggs is a nail. You read to your child about how they nailed Jesus to the cross. They would take that—and I remember my five-year-old—her face. She went, “Whoa, Mommy!” to see a nail. Then, they would place it on their hands—on the inside of their little palms—just to see what that felt like. [Emotion in voice]  17:00 I think that the nail is the most powerful item in the eggs—that visual that you can hold in your hand. You can feel it and to see it. It's very powerful. I think that it just brings it home, and it brings the understanding to a deeper level for a child. Bob: I want to talk to your kids. Leah: Oh, you do. Okay. Bob: Yes. Why don't we start with Rebekah? Rebekah: Hello? Bob: Hi, Rebekah. How are you? Rebekah: Fine, thank you. How are you? Bob: I'm fine. Listen, we wanted to talk to you. You know the special Easter eggs that your mommy has? Rebekah: Yes. Bob: Tell me what they are. Rebekah: Well, there are ten eggs, and they all tell the story. There will be a little paragraph that she says—that's a Bible verse. Then, we'll take turns reading it. One would be—it'd say, “He died on the cross,” and there'd be a wooden cross, or “Feed my sheep,” and there'd be a little lamb. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Rebekah, this is Mr. Rainey. Do you really like going through those eggs? 18:00 Rebekah: Yes! Bob: Can we talk to Rachel? Rebekah: Sure; one moment. Rachel: Hello? Dennis: Rachel. Rachel: Yes. Dennis: This is Mr. Rainey. How are you doing today? Rachel: Fine. Dennis: Your mom did something last Easter with some eggs. Do you remember that? Rachel: Yes. Dennis: Tell us about them. What do you do with those eggs? Rachel: Well, she'll read a verse, and we'll open it up, and see what's inside. Dennis: Like, what will be inside? Rachel: Like the cross where Jesus died, and like the empty egg. Dennis: Do you really like to do that? Rachel: Yes. Dennis: Why? Rachel: It's fun. Bob: Does it get boring when your parents bring out those eggs, or do you like it? Rachel: I like it. Bob: But, don't they make you sit down and listen? Rachel: Yes. Bob: But that's okay? Rachel: Yes! Bob: Tell you what. Can we talk to Sarah? Rachel: Sure. Bob: Okay, thanks. Sarah: Hello? Bob: Hi, Sarah? Sarah: Hi. Bob: How are you? Sarah: Fine. Bob: Are you? Do you know Mr. Rainey? Sarah: Yes. 19:00 Bob: Do you? Okay. Dennis: Hi, Sarah. This is Mr. Rainey. Do you remember the Easter eggs that your mom uses every year? Sarah: Yes, sir. Dennis: Do you like them? Sarah: Yes, sir. Dennis: Why do you like them? Sarah: Because they're fun to open. Bob: What kinds of things does she put in those eggs? Sarah: Money, the cross, a nail, the empty egg. Bob: You remember a lot of them. Sarah, can we talk to your mommy again? Sarah: Okay. Bob: Thanks. Dennis: Bye-bye. Leah: Hello? Bob: We'll probably have some listeners who will think about doing this with their kids at Easter time. Would you encourage them to? Leah: I really would! It's just such a simple but impactful way to share the Easter story—a creative way / a different way. Dennis: Well, Leah—thanks for being on the broadcast. Leah: Oh, sure. Bye-bye. [Studio] Bob: Well, again, it's fun to go back and listen to some of the early phone calls we made when we were first talking to moms about the idea of a set of eggs that they could use during Easter week to tell their children the story of the resurrection. 20:00 Dennis: It worked back then, and it's working today. We just decided we would take the resource and re-release it with a 20th Anniversary Edition. I think what was already excellent, and outstanding, and a whole lot of fun has really been moved up a notch. It's cool because the booklet that goes with the eggs is available both in English and Spanish. Bob: In fact, look at the back of your carton there—Resurrection Eggs—can you read what it says there on the back? Dennis: Not upside down. Bob: Look. Read that out loud to our listeners. Dennis: Are you talking about the English, of course; aren't you? Bob: Huevitos de Resurreccion™—so Resurrection Eggs. The carton comes with both English and Spanish so that listeners can use it in either setting. Dennis: Bob is flaunting two things there—one, his experience from San Antonio— Bob: Huevitos. 21:00 Dennis: There you go; and secondly, he's also reminding me of my Spanish and the grade I received. Bob: What grade did you get in Spanish? [Laughter] Dennis: It was in eighth grade—that was the year. Gratefully, they did pass me on to the ninth grade—but not because I excelled in the language of Spanish. Bob: I don't think you've said the grade yet. What was that grade that you got? Dennis: It was south of “D.” [Laughter] Bob: We, of course, have Resurrection Eggs in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. Our listeners can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to order a set of these eggs to use, this year, at Easter time. Or if you live near a Christian bookstore, many Christian bookstores have Resurrection Eggs. I know Family Christian Store has them—I think Lifeway and Mardel have them. There are even Walmart®s, across America, that have Resurrection Eggs this year at Easter—just a great tool to use to share the story of Easter with children, with neighbors, with relatives.  22:00 Find out more. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link that says, “Go Deeper,” at the top left-hand corner of the page. The information about Resurrection Eggs is available right there. You can order from us online. There is also information about the resources Barbara Rainey has been creating that can be used at Easter time to, not only share the story of Easter, but to beautifully decorate your home for the holiday, as well. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link that says, “Go Deeper,” at the top left-hand corner of the page. There is information about these resources there. You can order from us, online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY; 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY.” Now, let me say a special word of thanks to those of you who are regular listeners to FamilyLife Today and have listened long enough to know that what we're all about, as a ministry, resonates with what you believe, as a family.  23:00 We are here to provide practical biblical help for your marriage and your family. We believe that if we can effectively develop godly families, those godly families can change the world, one home at a time. And we appreciate those of you who share in that mission and who help support the mission through your prayers and your financial contributions. If you can help us with a donation right now, we'd like to send you, as a thank-you gift, a set of three prayer cards—one that will give you specifics on how to pray more effectively for your husband, another card on how to pray for your wife, and then a third card for the two of you to use together to pray for your children. These are our way of saying: “Thank you for your support of the ministry. We really do appreciate your partnership.” Simply go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen that says, “I Care.” You can make an online contribution; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—1-800-358-6329. Make a donation over the phone, and ask for the prayer cards when you do that. 24:00 Or request the prayer cards and mail a check to FamilyLife Today at P O Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Tomorrow, we'll hear more from people who have used Resurrection Eggs as a way to share the news of Easter with friends and family members. We'll talk more about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

Sarah Roberts, birth photographer, shares her birth experiences and journey to becoming a birth photographer. We discuss the rhetorical role of being a birth photographer in the community and how her profession honors the birth experience.   TRANSCRIPT:   Sara Welcome to the Birth Words podcast. Today we have a special guest, my friend Sarah Roberts. She is a lifestyle photographer and specializes in birth photography. She is here today to tell us about her stories of birth with her three children and the role that language played in those births. So welcome, Sarah!   Sarah Thank you!   Sara It's great to have you here. I'm going to just jump in with some questions. And for any of these, feel free to answer them specific to one of your pregnancies and births or kind of touch on all of them, whatever just comes to mind as being most relevant. Because I know you have three different experiences to draw from. So, my first question is, what words did you use to identify yourself as an expectant mother and as a laboring mother, and where did these words come from? Did you read books? Did they come from family members, your personal experiences, or maybe from your care provider? Where did these words come from? That you identified yourself with.   Sarah I think that's kind of hard, I didn't really enjoy, like, during the actual pregnancy, I don't think I really identified with any particular words. I think in my mind I was like, feeling: how do I want for this to go? Do I want to lean towards my friends who went unmedicated and all natural or do I just want to lean towards, you know, having a hospital birth and having the medications that I need, and that will help. So I kind of identified myself in those terms. And I really felt like I didn't have any other knowledge. And I'm thinking specifically more of my first pregnancy because it was, I felt like, just the most impactful for me because it was the first one. But I think maybe the biggest thing that I identified with was, which is kind of sad, it was dealing towards the weight gain. I had I gained about 40-ish pounds during that pregnancy, which was, you know, it's hard. It's hard to do that. And then, one of my doctors mentioned to me that I shouldn't gain any more weight. And I was about six months in, or maybe halfway I can't remember. And that was so hard for me to hear because, here I am feeling like I'm doing all I can, I'm working to create, I'm creating a child within me, and then to mention that what I'm doing is something wrong because I'm eating too much and being too lazy, I don't know. And I was, I felt kind of stuck. I didn't know what to do about that, like, how do I, I mean, I have these cravings, I'm hungry all the time, and you're telling me not to gain any more weight. And so that was kind of impactful for me. And in fact, when I went into labor, he was there, he was the doctor on call, and I was really disappointed. I didn't want him to be there during something so pivotal. Luckily, he was there while I went into the hospital, and I just was like, I don't want to deal with him. I have really hard feelings about it what he told me.  But fortunately, all he did was break my water, and administer and he left and there was a shift change. And so, by the time I delivered, it was a new doctor who I felt more comfortable with. So, anyway, there you go!   Sara No, thank you for sharing that. I think that's really important because, like, this one thing that he said, totally affected your relationship with him and the trust that you felt and the comfort, the level of comfort that you had when you were doing this awesome work not only during birth, but throughout your pregnancy. And, you felt like his words acknowledged only one thing that he was judging wasn't being done, as he would recommend, and didn't acknowledge all the amazing things that you were doing exactly as you should be doing and that were going so well. And it sounds like he didn't give any additional advice. Like, if he really was concerned that there shouldn't be more weight gain, then you'd hope that he would also give some tips or like guidance about how to healthfully manage that and still be able to get the nutrients that you and your baby need. And you know, and it sounds like it--    Sarah Yeah well, and even if he did, I probably wouldn't hear it, you know, because I was so focused on how he said it. And the way he said it was just so negative to me. And if I had a better relationship before with him, maybe it would have made a difference to or even mentioned, the more positive things. I don't remember any of that. So it was just that negative thing that I focused on.   Sara That makes a lot of sense. Because, when you are an expectant woman, you are doing so much good and there are some really hard things that you're sacrificing for, and it's really hard to not have people verbally acknowledge that and only verbally acknowledge, like, what you feel like they're saying you're doing wrong. I think that's huge. I'm sorry that that happened. I hope that you had more supportive care providers in the future, and sounds like even among the team of doctors, you were working with that was just kind of one thing that you were glad to get away from. Okay. And let's talk about your birth experiences. Can you remember any words that you used, or that others use, to help you frame the experience? Some people have, you know, preconceived ideas about how birth is going to feel either physically, emotionally, or what. What it is like what is the process of birth? Can you remember in your different birth experiences, how you approach the idea of labor and birth?   Sarah I, I don't know.  I don't feel like I have anything like that shaped what I knew. I mean, all I was just thinking for each one, it was going to be a big surprise. Like, I didn't know what would happen. Even though, I mean granted, yeah, your cervix is going to dilate and you're going to... Your water is going to break, you know, but the sequence of things… how that’s going to happen, the station of baby, you know... I really feel like I just did myself a huge disservice and not finding out, or, you know, having responsibility enough to look up that stuff on my own. I read some of the materials from, like, the offices that I went to, but it was more like the process of birth and, I don't know, I don't feel like, I don't know, I've kind of detached from that. And so, I guess I don't have any. I mean, I think it was more of an unknown, and a little bit of fear because each one was just different, but it's kind of the same process. With the last one I was a little bit more experienced obviously, having two, but at the same time, deciding to go unmedicated for the third one, just I think I went in very unprepared to know what, because if I had gone in knowing: “okay, here's where I am at now, I'm heading into transition, and this is what I can expect it's going to get hard, but then it's going to be close to being done,” you know, but I didn't have that. And I don't remember my moto, I feel like it was such a quiet you know, thing, you know, even in the visits beforehand, nothing like to help prepare me and I don't know, maybe I just didn't ask questions. I didn't know what to ask still, even the third time around. It's so embarrassing to me, but I share this because I want others to not do this too. And it's not until I got into birth photography that really understand it so much better now, and I'm close friends with all these doulas and I hear this all the time and it's like, “Okay, the next time around, I know what's going to happen. I know what to anticipate. It’s going to be kind of different. Because of my experience with the third one.” Anyways, so I don't know if that answers your question.   Sara I think you make really good points by just saying, I think there's no reason to feel embarrassed or sad because so many women approach birth exactly the way that you did and that I did with my first birth experience.  In that, many people do all the time that they don't really have, like you said, I say: “What words did you use to frame your experience?” And you're like: “I don't know, it just kind of went into it.” And I think it's reflective of, I mean, I think that we use language, we use words, in part to reflect our knowledge and experiences, and you didn't really have knowledge or experiences. So it makes sense that you didn't have any words to frame the experience for you. But I love that you're saying that you want that to be not the norm, right? You want that to be different for other women because I think part of the thing is that we don't like birth, it’s a taboo subject in some circles. I've been a doula for a couple of years and like, just this last time I was with my parents was the first time that I felt like my dad was like actually asking questions about it.  He's not, like, getting into the nitty gritty details of birth, but, like, actually asking, “so what do you do with your clients?” And before, he was just kind of like, “Oh, you do that birth stuff, like that's weird” and would just, like, I just felt uncomfortable every time we had an exchange because it felt like something he didn't feel comfortable talking about, which made me feel devalued. And I think that we need to, in our society, show that we value birth more just by speaking about it more. Because not having words to talk about something means that you're lacking a lot more than just words. So, does that ring true with what you're saying?   Sarah Yes. And also, as you're talking it made me also realize, like, I associate pregnancy birth with pain, right? Because, there's the epidural. That's the fallback. You know, if you're in pain, just get an epidural and, and even like, baby showers are kind of a weird thing to go to, people have weird feelings about baby showers. Some love going to or you know, maybe it's for the social aspect. But others view it as a place in the platform to talk about their negative birth experiences. Because I think that they end up having these negative experiences because of the way birth is shaped for them, like, whether it's what people other people have said, you know, negative birth experiences, like just kind of create more negative birth experiences, just because that's what you think, that's what you hear. And you think that's the norm. And so, then women want to feel maybe validated in their decisions to use interventions, you know, or to just be a passive participant and have the doctor just tell them what to do. Or they just have these painful experiences that they just didn't get to process and work through. And so they use baby showers as a place to do that. And so here they are, talking about negative birth experiences in front of an expectant mother who's going to have a baby soon. It's like the worst place ever for that. So we need to change our, we need to change our society and how we, we talk about birth. And we like granted Yeah, if you had a bad experience, yeah, let's talk about it and let's work through it. And but let's see how we can change it to it doesn't always have to be like that it can be power empowering, and it burns is such a sacred event and you're creating life and you're helping a little person come into this world. And it's so special and it's so amazing. And we need to give it that. It's not just some terrible ordeal that women have to go through. And it's something like, oh, we're we're all victims in this.  No, we are not victims, and we are not martyrs. And, we can be champions as we bring in the next generation and if we can help others, and cheer them on to do the same.    Sara I love everything that you just said. I just want to like stamp a big “amen!” right there. That's awesome. I think that critically important, everything you just said. And it made me want to know how you got involved in birth photography and what role you see that playing in like this societal change that you feel like needs to happen around birth?   Sarah Well, I feel like it was just such a thing I stumbled on. I really didn't, I didn't anticipate myself ever doing this. I've always been interested in photography. But I think what made the huge difference for me was my friend and neighbor Danny Reed, becoming a doula and her passion for birth. It just is so infectious. It just, uh, she would talk about it and talk about positive things about birth and her excitement with helping women having a positive birth experience by helping them give them extra support and whatnot. And was just so pivotal in my, in my direction, and  I have a new birth photographer. She lives in my neighborhood area and I didn't even think of that. But when I went to my sister's baby shower, she lived in Idaho at the time, and she was going to be scheduled for a C section because her baby was breached and I had brought my camera.  I went up with my other sister, we were going to have a weekend of it, and the next day was going to be her baby shower and we found out that the doctor changed the induction date to, or the C section date to the day of the baby shower. And so, I don't know what, not what possessed me, but I don’t know what came into my mind like, I should take a picture of a birth like, I didn't even think of the other birth photographer I knew.  I didn't even think of it being a, like, a career option for myself. I just thought that would be fun to document and see and I want to see it I you know, I was kind of fascinated by a C section and so the stars aligned, I was able to be in the room with everyone and take pictures and it was such an emotional, amazing event, watching my nephew be born. And I get a little emotional, because it was so wonderful to see, so beautiful.  And my sister, of course, is emotional and she was able to see her her precious little boy being born and I got to document what was happening.  And, because she is there on the table, couldn't really see much, and her baby was passed through the little window to be cleaned up and foot stamped and measured and all that stuff and so she didn't get to see all that.  And, I got to get those first pictures of them as a family and and then later on I did some of her nursing him, and for the first time I got pictures of him getting bathed for the first time, and all of that was just like wow! What a high and emotional high was on. I wanted to do it again and again and again. And so that's, that was my start of it. And so it was it was a really amazing event for me.   Sara That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that.   Sarah I guess I didn't really finish your other question was, well, and now I see so many others have experiences where they're just like, you know, birth is not such an amazing event for them, for whatever reason or another, whether it was in their control or not. And, I want to help change that.  I view myself as a birth worker even though I'm just documenting things, I feel like it's an important aspect of birth work and making changes.  In the birth photography course i'm actually taking right now, it's saying they are saying people have used, like providers have looked at photography from birth, and seen things like, “Oh, we can change this, we can make this better for the patient.” And so, positive changes are happening and people are even like, I didn't know I, I could do this option, but because I saw it in a picture; until I saw that, I didn't know it was an option. And so you know, women are seeing these options happen, and it's empowering them more. And I think the more we empower women in birth, the more that they will be able to recover after birth and be able to pick themselves up and have less problems with postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety. I feel like those are major, major, not consequences, but things that happened because of poor birth experiences, just things that, traumatic things that happened to them during labor and delivery. And so we can, if we can avoid it, as best as we can, then let's do that and help these women to not, not have as bad a time with depression and anxiety afterwards.   Sara I think that's huge. And I think you were talking earlier about how birth is a sacred event. And like, I think that as you are a photographer in that situation, you're showing your belief that it's just this beautiful, transformative sacred event. And being a photographer there like legitimizes that, that sanctity. Just like you would want a wedding photographer at a really that really important event and you would want it at your baby's christening or blessing or whatever, we photograph important moments in our lives. So I think that you're doing a huge service of removing the stigma or the taboo of birth by just saying, “Look at this beautiful, amazing transformative experience.” And I want it to be memorable and shareable. So I think that's huge.   Sarah Yes, exactly. And, I was able to photograph Danny's pregnancy or, excuse me, birth a couple years ago with her last baby and she kept saying how, how she was able to process her birth again, because I think we want to, we want to talk about our birth story over and over again. It's, it's helpful, it's processing, you know, it's healthy to process that and to remember what happened and the events that happened. And when you have pictures to add to that or video which I am working on too, but video even and hearing the noises and seeing the baby come out. it's just so empowering. You don't really remember those things when you're in the moment giving birth. And so it helps to have the words with it, as well as the images together to help create, recreate that, that event and that story that forms you. That's part of your history. That's, that's who you are.   Sara Thank you. I'm going to keep thinking about all those things you just said, because I've been thinking a lot about birth stories and why we tell them and what sort of like what the rhetorical purposes and I think that photography is a really important part of that. So, I'm going to keep thinking about that. And I feel like our interview has gone a different way than, like, with the questions that I sent to you. But I'm so glad that it did, because I really appreciate all the thoughts that you've shared. And I think that our listeners will too. So before we wrap up, will you let them know how they can follow you on social media, your website, all of those things.   Sarah Okay, my website is www.yellowkitephoto.com and, using that handle @yellowkitephoto, you can reach me on Instagram and Facebook. And, I just would love if you followed me, even if you're not interested or, or whatever, it's important to share and to embrace the stigma of birth being a taboo thing, something that shouldn't be seen and, so give it a follow and share with others if you feel like it's inspiring to you and would inspire others.   Sara Great. Thank you so much, Sarah!   Sarah Thank you. This is so wonderful to talk about. I love talking about birth!   Sara Great. Me too!

In this episode of the SCT Podcast Sarah Potter and TJ discuss the differences between fundamental analysis and technical analysis. Fundamental analysis is typically discussed in the media about trading options and stocks. Fundamental analysis attempts to assess the financial health of a company and determine if the current market price of the stock is under or over valued. Technical analysis on the other hand looks at charts and chart patterns and looks at the supply and demand for the stocks and whether current price trends will continue or reverse. Both technical and fundamental analysis have their place in investing, for the short term weekly options trades that we place in the shecantrade trading room, a combination of technical analysis and probability trading from the options chain are what we use to select our trades. Fundamental analysis is best used for longer term trading when the financial growth prospects of the company can be fully realized over a few years.   Podcast Transcript Sarah: Hi everybody, it's Sarah Potter from shecantrade.com and this is the SCT podcast. We are on episode 38. I have TJ here. TJ: Good afternoon. Sarah: And today's discussion we're going to talk a little bit about technical analysis versus fundamental analysis and basically why we choose to look at what we do to gather evidence to place the best trades. What we're really proud of in the live trading room she can trade is that we are very consistent in our approach to trading and as a result that really comes from finding good evidence from the beginning, we really focus on getting it right from the beginning as opposed to just placing trades and then adjusting or rolling trades as we proceed in them. So kind of front-running the evidence I suppose and trying to gather pieces from all sorts of different areas to make sure we have a good perspective when we're placing trades. Now the basis of what we both trade both TJ and I is technical analysis, but you know I think even within the umbrella of technical analysis there's a lot of different areas, a lot of different systems that people use to place trades and I'm not really sure we do everything in technical analysis. So I don't know, what do you think you would you call yourself a technical trader or a Chartist like, how would you define yourself? TJ: Well definitely for the weekly trades, the day trades, the swing it's definitely not fundamentals, so yeah, I consider myself a technical analyst. Sarah: But I think when someone thinks about technical analyst I think sometimes you're thinking about somebody who spends a lot of time, very detailed amount of patterns in charts and when I've seen you trade, you do use how price moves but you're not getting that detail in terms of the patterns you're look for. TJ: Yeah, that's true. I don't think what we do is we would I do anyways I think kind of the broad concept from technical analysis, you know in terms of support resistance, trend, reversals and really applied at a pretty high level kind of the 10,000 foot level instead of getting into it right you know right down to the nitty-gritty and counting the number of bars in a triangle and you know the exact shape of the triangle and you know going back and looking at every time it happened for the last ten years and will it happen again, I think definitely, I don't delve into it that deeply and there are a lot of people that that really do it and use it to quite a bit of success. I think anything that you use, you need to, whether it's technical or fundamental you can't use it in isolation on its own, you need to combine it with what you're seeing and the options chain, what you're seeing on the charts, what you're seeing on short-term, what you're seeing on some long-term charts, what you've seen that stock do in the past and put that all together and take a little bit from every piece of that and then and then evaluate your trade. So yeah, definitely I use definitely use all the principles and it's a mosaic you know you grab a little bit of a little nugget from here, a little something from there you know something that you've learned here over there that works and you kind of put it all together and wrap it all up and apply it and I think that's why every trader has a slightly different style and I think that's the same thing with the trading room as well is that you know none of our members, are going to trade exactly like us or are going to look at the market exactly like us, but as long as we can give them some nuggets and some good trades and you know discuss the pros and cons good and bad of each trade before we place it then everyone is educated and everyone can make that decision to trade on their own and I think that's the important thing is building the story yourself and just being confident in the trades. Sarah: Yeah, I mean so I think when you're talking about it, it really does ring true to what I'm saying is that yes we're technical traders. I am as well, I do want to pay attention to how price is moving but I want to look at things like how it’s moved in the past as opposed to, oh today we've seen this many Bars in a consolidation so it must mean it's going to break out. I actually think that a lot of times we spend a lot of time there too much time in charts it's very good at looking back in history and identifying areas to enter our exit rates but because we're trading live and we're actually looking to get filled on our trades to make money on our trades then we need to be able to see things in the moment, recognize patterns certainly that have happened in the past, we can rely on those pieces of evidence but if you're only doing the charts I think you're missing another part of the picture and in options trading because we do have an options chain there's a lot of information there and that tells a story too. So what we both do in the trading room very successfully is take pieces of technical analysis and layer it in with the options chain but what I find interesting is that I've tried just looking for trades only through the auctions chain and I can't really find trades that way. So I definitely rely on technical analysis to find my trades, to choose the stocks that I'm going to spend more time and to decide whether or not a trade is actually setting up. So for me when I'm starting to look for trades I'm going to focus on the daily chart that's really where I'm filtering through all the different stocks, it comes from the daily and if something from the daily piques my interest then I'm going to go out to different timeframes and look to see how it's moving. So I want to look historically, looking on a weekly chart to see what is it done in the past are there any key areas of support and resistance, what does the trend look like, is it consolidating, those kinds of things and then from the weekly chart if things still look good and I'm still excited in the trade then that's where I'm going to move to the shorter term pieces like the 60 minute and the 5 minute to then get more precise about my entries. And then from there we're going to take all the evidence we've already gathered and then layer that into the options chain. Actually today in the trading room, I was looking at one stock at Walmart and the Walmart chart, so from a technical analysis point of view looked fantastic, it pretty well had everything, steep trend, no resistance, multiple timeframes everything looked like it was going to pop up it looked like an idea a great trade to place led to buy a call but when we moved into the options chain and started looking out to next week in terms of expiry which is where I was going to purchase the option, it didn't look as good anymore. The probability of success to me didn't look as as great as I would like it to and so I didn't place the trade so there's times where I'm going to gather all sorts of different evidence from the charts but if I can't get it to line up with what it looks like in the options chain, it's not worth placing the trade, it's probably worth putting it on a short list perhaps trading it next week once that expiry is moved on but it actually stopped me from getting into a trade. So layering what you see in charts with what you see in the options chain and what we know what's happening in the media too can also be helpful when we're actually putting together that trade. Now you use probability as well when you're placing trades especially sometimes with some day trading, how do you layer in different pieces of evidence? You're really well known TJ for your day trades, what kind of evidence to use there is it any different than when your swing trading? TJ: I think so. I think if it's if we're day trading I'm looking for something is going to happen either the next day or later that day. So I think the evidence that we that shows up on the options chain is more timely because it's you know there's less time before that option expires so what I'm seeing is you know is probably going to be the most accurate information that I'm seeing. For example, you know let's talk about Delta. Delta changes very rapidly it can and it can go from you know you can go from a delta 20 to a Delta 80 on an option on a strike pretty quickly if the stock really gets you know really gets moving, you know if we you know let's take an example again with a delta and we go to expiry and we look at expiry that delta number is going to be the most accurate right before 4 o'clock on that Friday and that's just the nature of the market so if I'm taking a day trade you know I'm relying more on what I'm seeing on the options chain I'm trusting it a little bit more because there's less time between now and expiry for the market to move, for traders to change their mind, for new big positions to be initiated. So definitely for the day trading I'm looking at the options chain, I'm looking at the details from the options chain and I'm taking that at a more of face value, I'm looking for things like you know where's the volume today, you know where is volume coming in, is it close to the strikes I'm trading, is it far away, is there a skew to the put side or the call side, is there a lot more credit on the put side than on the call side? You know there's the market and we look at the credit is the market pricing and a bigger move to the put side or the call side and these are all things that I look at in that that I use from the options chain to form my day trading decision and then I'll go to the chart and I'll look at those support and resistance levels from the options chain, you know based on like I said on credit, on volume, on open interest and I'll compare those to the moving averages, you know more traditional support and resistance on the chart and I'll see if any of those levels line up. And again you know the more the more things that line up at a certain point you know typically this areas as more traders will be looking at that point as well. So it will you know if you know if there's a lot of traders looking at say 2400 to hold on the S&P, there's a good chance that it probably will. So yes I use a lot of evidence and I think a lot of it is just looking at subtleties and seeing if there's you know a little bit something different than last week or you know something's changed between the morning in the afternoon, you know nothing will really kind of showed out at you but by the time you put it put together 3, 4, 6, 8 pieces of information and you build your case you know at least you've got at least the evidence that you know is supporting the trade. Sarah: Okay, so what we haven't talked about is fundamental analysis. And that is also very traditional, there's a lot of people in that group in camp that would say that that is an important piece to trading, but it's something that you and I both don't use and that might just be because of our outlook and how we setup our trades, because we are generally trading and looking to get out of the trade within a week or two. So do you think there's a role to play with fundamental analysis in the approach or the system of which we trade the market? TJ: I honestly don't think so for short-term trades. I don't think the fundamental analysis, I don't think any of that has enough time to play out during the week. I think fundamental analysis takes a longer time to work its way into the system, to work its way you know we see that you know companies release they've got good, good fundamentals you look ok it's a growing company you know price should go up over the next six months to a year that's great but we're typically in well I'm typically in a trade two or three days. So the market knows that yes, fundamentals might be good or fundamentals might be changing but you know there's no real time for that to take hold in the market. No obviously, earnings which is a fundamental event obviously if you want to consider that do have a big impact and we obviously you know we've talked about that in previous podcast with earnings, but generally yeah you know it doesn't I don't really pay attention to it at all. Sarah: Do you think what we have both been paying attention to though and what is relevant from very much for our style of trading though is what's happening in terms of in media and whatever you want to call that in terms of its analysis being very aware of what's happening on a global stage will impact the broad market especially which then will roll into the trades that we're in? So it is important to be paying attention to what's going on in the world because that will influence how price will move and so whether you're a technical or fundamental trader I do think that that's very important. We have geopolitical news that is influencing the market these days and I think as we move forward that will definitely be something we'll need to be very considerate of. The beautiful thing which is we're talking about the trading room today actually, the wonderful thing about the style of which we do trade is that it doesn't really matter what happens in the market two or three weeks down the road because we're probably out of those trades and we can easily-easily readjust to how the markets moving at the time. So whereas somebody who's maybe more long term is thinking, oh is this a dip this is my opportunity to buy and then we're going to see things move up and they're thinking about longer-term stances in the market, we don't have to be as concerned about that, we can be fluid and flexible with the market depending on how things are portraying themselves and we can take advantage of the trades that we're seeing and I think marrying the combination between some technical analysis linked with what we're seeing in the options chain and keeping in mind what's going on in the world is kind of the three core pieces to have really great trades. All right let's leave it there, that was a great discussion, certainly there's a lot of camps and a lot of points of view on technical and fundamental trading. As always we really do appreciate your review so anytime you can review she can trade or our podcast I would really appreciate it, those are very important and honest review is very helpful and come and check us out the live trading room at Shecantrade.com Happy trading everybody.  

In this episode of the SCT Podcast, listen to Shecantrade review your options for selecting the best expiry date for your options trades. Options traders have lots of choices when it comes to picking an expiration date for their trades. Many traders simply pick the date that looks best to them, but there are better ways. Listen to find out how to pick the optimal expiration for your long and short options trades. Podcast Transcript Sarah: Hi, everybody, this is Sarah Potter. This is the SCT podcast. Happy to have you all here today. I have TJ with me. TJ: Good afternoon. Sarah: And this is episode 37. And today we’re going to talk about how you pick expiries. I mean, in options, we have the lovely ability to pick how long we want to be involved in a trade. And so often, this is a question that we get asked a lot is how you make a decision about what week to trade when you can basically trade any week in a stock or any other trading instrument in options. So, how do you make that choice. I think this is a good discussion because TJ and I sometimes have a different points of view on this is to how many weeks to really hold trades. So, I think the first thing you want to think about is how much money are you actually interested in risking because the further you go out, the longer the time you’re giving the trade, the more expensive generally it’s going to be to be involved in that trade. And so, there has to be a balance with how much money you’re willing to put up versus actually figuring out, you know, I think this time frame is actually going to be quite soon so I think the stock is going to move, let’s say in a couple of weeks, so I only want to have a couple of week expiry versus you know, I think it’s going to go up and I don’t really know when so I’m going to go out a month or two and hope that it goes up in that time. So, TJ, what do you think, when are sometimes, or how do you make choices about expiry? TJ: Well, I guess first I have to, I want to look at the type of trade that I’m trading, whether it’s a spread or if it’s a directional buying long puts or long calls. I typically look for, I look first, I guess, let’s kind of talk about this maybe as a checklist. So, first, I look at the market. Is the market really trending? Is it moving sideways? Are we getting lots of different news? Political, economic. It’s just a lot coming out all the time. It’s maybe that causing the market to move back and forth. And then, I’ll look and I’ll say, okay, “These are the market conditions.” Is this a time that I want to spend a lot of time in the market with my trades? Or is it a time where things are happening so quickly that maybe I only want to be in the trade two or three days. And I don’t want to sit for weeks on ending a trade because we don’t know what’s going to happen if there’s going to be another government announcement or economic announcement. So that’s kind of the next step. And then I’ll tell her to, “Am I buying a put or call or am I selling a credit spread?” Generally, credit, I will only do week of so it’s a decision, “Do I get it on Monday, Tuesday? Or do I get it on Wednesday, Thursday for the Friday expiry?” But then for long puts and calls, I like to give the trade enough time to work but I also don’t want to get into a situation where the expiry is so far out on the put or call. That price is moving, may move over the next two or three days but the option doesn’t really respond because there’s so much time to expiry. So, I like to weigh those. So, I think for me, usually two or three days for credits, for spreads and I’m probably three weeks out for long puts and calls? Sarah: Okay, but that three weeks out on a market that’s moving, would you suggest that once a market is sideways, are you still picking that same three-week window or are you adjusting if the market is consolidating? TJ: I think the market is really slowly consolidating. I’m probably not trading the long puts and calls anyway, so it wouldn’t really be, it wouldn’t be something that I’d really look at. Sarah: So, I will basically make my choice about what week to trade especially for directional trades for buying calls and puts. Also, based on volume and where there are other people. So, sometimes, I might want to give it three weeks or four weeks to place the trade, to have the time. And I generally like to have a few extra week, so if I think that a stock is going to move let’s say this week, I will not trade with this week’s expiry. And that’s just because your faded decay is going to be too influential in the same week of expiry. So, if the option is going to expire in the same week, even if I think the move is going to happen, because you’ve got so much time decay value coming out of that option because it’s an option that’s going to expire that week, generally, those trades won’t be as favorable as if you went out at least one more week. So, I kind of think about it like, “Okay, do I think the move is happening this week?” Then I want to give myself an extra week just in case I’m wrong. And then I want to give a week for time value so that generally, I’m not in trades in the last week of expiry. So, that’s kind of my rule of thumb, so, I would suggest that I would meet a three-week window is the first place I’m going to look. So, if I want to buy a call, I’m always going to start at three weeks out. But there are also times when three weeks out, there’s no volume so it doesn’t make sense with the trade that week either. And that’s what I’m going to go out further or go in a week and start to consider whether or not it’s worth taking those trades instead. So, I’ll stick with the same strike but I’m going to start looking at various weeks just to see if there’s a nice place where there’s other people that are already trading so, looking at open interest in volume and looking for other positions to already be there. I don’t want to be the only person trading at a strike. I find that that’s just, those trades don’t work out as well versus when I’m in trades where there’s other people as well. I mean, that’s a whole other podcast too we could do down the road. So, there will be times that I will go out. But yeah, I mean, we’re both very similar in terms of our style for calls and puts, but there are times do you ever take trades that are out further? Like going out more than three or four weeks? TJ: Not typically an option, no. If I’m going to trade a moderately expensive stock and I’m buying an option that say three or four, six months out in the future and I want to buy that in the money with a high delta. I mean, at some point, the benefits of buying the option are kind of reduced ‘coz I might as well go buy the stock ‘coz that option is going to be a big chunk of the cost of the stock price if I’m going that far. And it expires so I’d rather spend, instead of spending 30 or 40 dollars on an option that expires, I’d rather spend maybe a hundred dollars share on a stock. At least I know that stock will still be around typically. I may be able to hold it out a little bit longer if something happens whereas the option it’s, you’re committing a lot of capital and it could just expire worthless. Sarah: Yeah, and you know, from coaching a lot of people to, when we talk about trading options, sometimes, people get really focused on the expiry like what week should I pick for their trade to end. And I also suggest, a really good tip, is to think about the trade from the beginning. So, if you identify that you think a stock is going to move, let’s say this week, but you look at it, and let’s say in a shorter term time frame like a 60-minute chart, there’s a bit of resistance. So, what sometimes traders will say is, “Well, there’s resistance here so, I have to go out a week.” Where I would say, “There’s resistance here so, I’m not going to trade it this week.” And so, you and I, that person and myself, we might end up with the same expiry but I’m going to get into the trade a week later. So, I’m not going to pay for that risk to be in that first week while there still is resistance where somebody else would. Perhaps, their perspective, what I can hear sometimes is, well, it’s cheaper then so I’d rather get into that option where it’s cheaper when there’s still resistance. And I guess, from my point of view, yeah, it could be less but if there’s resistance there, the market hasn’t proven that it’s actually going to move in a direction you want yet, so it would be better to sit and wait to see how that moves first rather than going out and spending more on an extra week. Just because we have the flexibility of trading options with more weeks, it doesn’t always necessarily mean that that’s something you should do. And I think, when we’re trading, I mean that’s the downfall of options because you have so many choices. Sometimes, instead of making a good trading decision from the beginning people say, “Well, I have a choice so I’m just going to mitigate some of these by these other choices that I have and that’s why I’m going to place a trade.” I don’t know, have you ever encountered something like that? TJ: Yeah, I think that’s I would agree, I think that’s pretty common. I’d also suggest to that if we think that the market is pretty accurate and fairly priced on the options chain, the market has a pretty good idea where price will go, and the options, if you look where the market thinks it’s going, those options will end up expiring worthless. It’s just the reason why a lot of times, straddles don’t work because the market is priced in that move and the market is generally right which is why we like to do spreads, credit spreads. We want to take the other side of that market. So, if we think that we want to trade high probability trades, we want to look at the options chain for evidence, I would tend to suggest that the market is more accurate the closer you are to now. The market expiry this week is probably pretty well-priced if I go out a year or eight months or nine months, that accuracy I think diminishes so there’s a lesser probability. So, I think if you go out and you want to rely on the probabilities from the options chain from the market, and you want to go out eight or nine months and you want to buy these long date options, I think the market isn’t as accurate out there. So, you’re relying on information, you’re paying for example, a premium maybe, for an option that the market isn’t really accurately priced. There may be a lot of discrepancy where prices are at that point which is where a lot of these longer term trades, they’re pretty binary. I mean, they either work or they don’t. And I think we also have to think too that if you do believe that in the distance that the options chain that it is fairly priced, then you have think about how is that options chain becoming fairly priced? Well, the market makers, the market in general, not just the market makers, each trader, the supply and demand is out there is there is going to be a lot of will room priced into those options, they are going to be expensive to cover that unpredictability. And, you can look at it and direct something that’s very easily noticeable implied volatility, that’s one input of market volatility. And if we look at that and we put all that together, then we really have to say why are we trying to outguess the market, if we think we can, that’s great, so say we do outguess the market, but we’ve potentially paid so much for that put or call, that by the time we get to where we need to go, we really haven’t made all that much profit because we’ve spent so much on it from the get go. And I hope that makes sense but what I’m trying to say is that it goes back to the whole no free launch. We think that’s there’s potential for a lot of profit eight or nine months and we see it but how many times does that really come, does that really play out? And I think we have to remember that that we need to look at that in the future as well. Sarah: Yeah, I think that’s actually really good advice. Don’t get caught up in thinking that we can outsmart the market. You might as well work with the market because there’s a lot of trades to be had that are there right in front of you. So, I just want to thank everybody, we’ve had a lot of really great feedback lately on the podcast, everyone’s really liking this new format, and I do, too. I think somebody kind of summed it up as it sounds like the two of us are just kind of having a coffee and a chat about options and I don’t know, I think that’s a really nice way to think about it. We do appreciate your reviews, though. The reviews are very important especially in iTunes, so if you could take a couple of minutes and post an honest review of the podcast up there in iTunes, we’d really appreciate it. And of course, we’d always love to see you guys at shecantrade.com. Happy trading, everybody. Thanks for listening to a Shecantrade Review of the Markets  

Two very popular options to trade are in the SPX S&P500 cash settled index and the SPY S&P500 ETF. Each offers unique benefits for options traders. Listen to this week's podcast to hear about the key differences between the SPX and SPY and some strategies for trading each. Podcast Transcript Sarah: Hi everybody, this is Sarah Potter welcome to the SCT podcast. We are in episode 36 and while I completely understand that when we do podcasts everybody is listening to podcasts at different times. TJ and I definitely wanted to highlight and have a discussion about something that's very relevant for this week. Now certainly our topic is going to be good for any of the weeks that are trading but it's especially important this week. So this week if you look at the market there's a lot going on. We have a lot of news, a lot of earnings, we have FOMC does a lot. So if you are even if you're not even an options trader, if you just trade stock, if you're just investing in the market this is a big week and we want to expect or anticipate that we will have relative moves to that. So what that means then is we're going to have many perhaps many of the stocks or trading instruments that you look at might look a little different. So what we decided to do is talk about some different opportunities to trade or different instruments to look at. So we're going to talk today about the differences between a cash-settled index versus ETFs. Now you guys know that we both like to trade those and certainly those are different instruments and they have different characteristics so we thought let's get into that so that people understand what they are like to trade and perhaps those are things you might want to go look at when you have a week on deck that has a lot of different news. So hi TJ. TJ: Good afternoon. Sarah: You like to trade the SPX a lot and I know that that's something that you do in the trading room and I would definitely say that you're really good at that. So could you start us off by explaining a little bit about what is a cash settle index and its characteristics? TJ: Okay, sure. I guess let's compare how to trade indexes. So the two basic ways our cash settle index like the SPX and any TF like the SPY so the major difference between the two is the SPX is cash settled. So that means you will never be assigned shares of the SPX, there are no shares to be assign. The SPX you can only trade options on the index. So at settlement if you are in the money, you either have money put in your cash, put in your account or cash taken out of your trading account instead of a typical option where you would have shares assigned to you. The SPY is an ETF so you can buy shares in the SPY so if an expiration day you are assigned you actually get the shares so that is the main difference between the two. The other differences is just the size of the contract the SPX is about ten times the value of the SPY so that comes into position sizing as well and we can talk a little bit more about that maybe later in the podcast. And the other major difference is how they expire and we'll about that a little bit I guess later or we can get into that right now, what do you think Sarah? Sarah: Sure, I mean I think expiry is a really important piece because that's something that when we get questions about when we're trading these instruments people don't sometimes realize that things can expire at different times especially in the SPX. So let's get to that. So this is a week that has a lot of earnings and new so especially Wednesday's FOMC and then SPX has expired on Wednesday. So in particular you like to trade SPX. Would you ever trade an SPX trade and have it expire on the same day that you have an FOMC announcement? TJ: You could, that would be a lot like an earnings trade you know the market has expectations and obviously you're expecting a big move so you can definitely set it up. Is that my strategy? No, that's typically not my strategy. The two strategies I really like are overnight trade in the SPX so basically holding it, buying at the day before expiration, setting up the trade holding it overnight and letting it expire the next day. The other trade that I really like is also today trade. So to look for you know potential credit spreads on a Friday. However we do have to look at and we can talk about this as well that those two trades primarily work best when there's higher implied volatility in the market and right now if anyone's paying attention to the SPX, I mean we know that I mean IV was you know a couple weeks ago even if the last week was 8, 9 which is extremely-extremely low. So the credit is just not necessarily there for those types of trades but definitely those are the two setups that I prefer when I do trade it. Sarah: But when the implied volatility be going up this week like perhaps this is a week that you want to pay attention to SPX because of all the news? TJ: Yeah, you would you would think that that FOMC would actually you know really make a difference in it, but it's actually it's not, it's not changing implied volatility, we're just even if we look at the VIX it's just pegged it right at the lows I mean we were talking about it in the trading room a couple weeks ago how you know we were down in the low 9s on the VIX and you know we had to look back 11 years, we had to look back you know almost 11 years back to 2007 before we really saw levels below 9 and I think it was a VIX with eight and a half, 8.5 I think was approximately the number that we saw and that was back in 2007 and we know what happened. You know I have you know six months to a year later we had the big crash of 2008 and no I'm not saying that what we're seeing now is it all the same, I'm just trying to say that you know we're at really-really low levels and you know the VIX doesn't really want to go lower but it doesn't want to go higher either because the market does keep going up. So you know it's kind of stuck in a range and Daphne you know events that we would typically see an increase in volatility a little bit but not enough to really make a difference in trading. Sarah: Okay. So those kind of change gears and start talking about ETF. So I know that in the trading room I get asked about SPY a lot it seems to be very popular instrument to trade and I want to specifically talk about it, obviously you guys all know that we both look at the ES which is the futures contract but they all represent the same thing, right? So this is the SNP and SPY in particular it is ETF so it's cheaper. So I think a lot of people really like to trade it because it doesn't cost as much to trade but I don't know about you but sometimes I find if I place trades or if I even look for trades and SPY it can be actually difficult to be able to actually get filled on a tray that you really like the charts can look really nice but when we move into the options chain sometimes to just things don't really line up. So a lot of times I'm not actually going to follow through on that trade because we can't see stuff except for weeks like this when you now have more news, more events that might potentially move the market if you are fearful of placing a trade, a futures trade in the ES or the SPX business setting up SPY can actually be a really good instrument right now. TJ: Yeah, I mean absolutely. I think that we have to keep in mind too what you brought up is absolutely right. So I mean we think about if we're getting say we're doing a credit spread in SPX and we're getting 30 cents you know we're potentially looking at 3 cents of credit in the SPY so it really doesn't make sense to almost trade for that 3 cents. So I think you know we may differ in that opinion is, I really rarely look at the SPY and I don't I don't really see the advantage to it. Sarah: Really? I can buy a call and SPY and have so much less risk because I don't have to put up as much in the trade and still be able to take advantage of the moves that can happen in the broader markets obviously the ETF is a representation of that. So I don't know, I like that, so to me looking out it this week and seeing, oh yeah, I expect the market to move quite a bit I think SPY is actually a really great trading instrument that I do want to be involved in because I don't have to put the risk up. Now you're probably talking about spreads, right? And trying to place a spread trade in SPYs almost impossible sometimes. TJ: Exactly and I think too that. Yeah, I guess if you're looking to buy puts and calls I do agree that we’re, yeah so it's a little bit cost prohibitive in the SPX. I mean you can be 20 points out on a put or a call you know risking two thousand dollars on per contract whereas you could do that risk two hundred dollars per contract in the SPX which is probably more in alignment. So I guess if you think about it that way, yeah I guess they're useful for different reasons. Sarah: Yeah, so a piece about SPY that I definitely want to mention is that, just because those are cheaper calls and puts to buy again they don't necessarily mean that they're going to turn into crazy profits, right? So if you're buying something and you see risked a dollar and you make thirty to fifty dollars on that trade that is a huge return on investment and so I think where people get wrong, go down the wrong way there with SPY is they start saying well I'm not risking that much but I still want to make a huge amount so I'm just going to let that run, run and run and you need to keep that all relative to how that instrument likes to move. So remember that SPY is cheaper than the other ones for a reason and that also is going to mean at that range that you're looking for needs to all be aligned with what is realistic. So realistic set realistic profit targets in SPY and I think that can be a really great trading instrument especially for just buying straight calls and puts. But you don't ever do SPY you do SPX so if we were to ask you like of the ES the SPX and SPY, which one is your favorite and why? TJ: That’s a really good question. I think I'm tied between the S&P, the ES contract, the options on futures, and the SPX depending on how I feel in terms of position sizing on that day, the ES contract is about half the size of the SPX give or take. So you can kind of fine-tune position sizing that way as well. So I'm kind of tied between the kind of between the two of them. One thing I do want to mention as well is that the cash settle index is like the SPX you have to remember that on monthly expiration, you have to trade a different contract. So every third week is a month if you want the contract that expires on Friday, you do need to trade the SPX p.m. contract because the SPX contract expires Thursday at the close but the pricing is based on Friday's open. So there's been quite a few traders who have been locked in, stuck in positions on you know overnight Thursday as the market gaps up Friday morning and a max profit goes into a loss and because the option stops trading on Thursday at the close but is still pricing Friday so you still see it in your account, the price is changing but you can't trade it. So it's really an odd situation if anyone's ever traded the SPX the third week and not realized that it expired the Thursday. Well that it stops trading the Thursday but again it's still pricing based on Friday's open and it's not even the open, it's the open of all 500 stocks in the S&P 500. So that doesn't even give you satisfaction when the market opens, it could be 5 or 10 minutes before they or 15 minutes before they figure out an actual settlement price. So just a little wrinkle there. Sarah: A little wrinkle. I think that's why a lot of people are afraid to trade SPX because of the expire reason and all the rules and trying to keep that in mind. So I mean if it was what you just heard TJ described was too stressful for you just to keep that in mind I mean remember you can still trade SPY or you can do the ES and sometimes even though with the size of the ES if you're doing a futures contract you might think, oh gosh, remember it's still an auction too, right? You're still doing an option on the futures contract, it does the same thing as the options and everything else it's just a different underlying a different trading instrument. So you know if SPX and understanding all of its different expiries is not something you're interested in then don't forget that you can also do options on futures on the ES. However I also want to mention with the SPX because it does have the different expiry, there's times during the week where the Friday expiry doesn't look good on the options chain but the Wednesdays do. So it really just depends of that week, what actually looks to be setting up and don't forget that I went like, it’s almost like double the trade opportunities there so you can be pickier about the ones that you really want and when they do setup definitely pick the one that's tailored for you. TJ: Exactly and one other thing too is I think that you know if we draw a line and we've got premium on one end and no premium on the other, you've got a stock like PCLN where there's ton of premium, there's a ton of people with different ideas, the index is like the SPX used by a lot of institutions for various reasons and they're priced pretty fairly in the market, there's not a lot of arbitrage, there's not a lot of you know a lot of profits, you know the sneaky profits if you want to call that to be had, it's pretty well traded, there's a lot of volume, a lot of institutions, a lot of big trading in the SPX, so if you see a lot of premium at a strike that you think is way out of the money and it'll never ever get there by Friday you know chances are there may be a good chance that it does, you know you don't get a lot of those opportunities to get that bonus premium like you might in a in a PCLN Sarah: Yeah, I mean I think that's good. Remember, they all have different characteristics but there's always going to be times when each of those are good to trade. So if you're afraid of the market swinging too much then adjust to the contract size that you like but make sure you remember that within each of those contracts that your profit targets need to be relative to how those individual stocks move. I think that's a good discussion this week. Don't be afraid this week if the market don't be afraid of news just make sure you're tailoring your trades to make to remember that we do have news and that volatility will change things. So happy trading everybody.  

How to Build and Maintain Your Options Trading Watchlist Sarah: Hi everybody this is Sarah Potter. Welcome to the SCT podcast. We are on episode 30 and I have TJ here and this is episode 30 I mean when you turn 30 years old it's kind of a big deal and I feel like you're in a new age bracket, a new category, a new box when you have to check off. I don't know, does that mean you're in a new level here for podcasts? TJ: Yeah absolutely. I think we should have a big party for the SCT podcast, what do you think? Sarah: Yeah way to go. Okay, so today's theme is going to be something that we kind of thought was related to being 30 and really what that has to do with is a watch list. So we're going to talk all about how to build a watch list and how to make sure you are modifying your watch list to make sure you're getting the best rates possible out there from the market. So this is kind of something that I think that maybe some people overlook. You talk about treat entries you're all people are always asking about the best strategy, what are the best stocks to trade, how do I find trades from the market but really the root of a lot of the trading and good trading comes from having a good watch list and having a watch list that you can actually find trades from and that's a big key there. You want to have a good watch list but that watch list I have to be able to produce trades for you. So it doesn't really matter how long your watch list is, you want to make sure that you can actually get some decent trades from it on a regular basis. So TJ I'm just curious, if your watch list if you're looking at some stocks, how often would you say you trade the stocks from your watch list? TJ: Fairly often I would say that if I'm not trading a stock it probably comes off the watch list within three to six months. Sarah: Three to six months? Okay, so how did you come up with three to six months? TJ: I just found that if I'm not trading it and I haven't traded it, I probably won't trade it. There's a reason that something hasn't set up. I still may go back to it, may add it back you know further down the road but yeah it just comes off, I try to keep the watch list as uncluttered as possible and just that's just so you know nightly when I'm looking for trades, I can scan through in fine trades really efficiently and not spend two or three hours looking for trades but really narrow it down 15 minutes, half an hour being able to get through quickly of you. How do you build your watch list? What are your criteria? Sarah: You know I watch this is something that I think you that gets better over time. Hence why are talking about that today, just like a good bottle of wine I think once you've been in the market for a little bit and you've kind of gone through different stocks and decided which ones you like and not, you can really start building a better and better watch list the longer you are in the market and I think you get much better at evaluating a stock to decide whether it's worthwhile. So for me the general rules are things like a high data stock. I love weekly option so you'll notice on my watch list I have basically the majority of those being stocks that have the opportunity to trade weekly options in. But really I want, we need to kind of be alive the stock so we need to be able to find trades in them. So for me if a stock doesn't work that means that's easy as well so if I place a trade in a stock an options trade and it hasn't worked out for me then it's done that a couple times and I'll get rid of it and I don't really want to look at it anymore. So for me that's something like Twitter. Twitter and I just don't get along, we just never have for some reason. I don't know why I'm very good at finding direction in a lot of different stocks but there's just some I'm not good at and one of them is Twitter, so why keep going back to a stock that I'm not that great in when I can go focus on some other stock. So stock like that, like if I don't do well in it I'm going to look to take that off my watch list and then it also has to produce trades. So if something's been sitting around on my watches for a long time and I can't really seem to ever find a good trade in it then I don't think there's really any point to reviewing that stock all the time. So for me, for some reason I have Whole Foods on my list and it's something I've had on my watch list forever and I do like to pay attention to everyone's well but I can't remember the last time I place a trade in Whole Foods, I mean I think it's been months but for some reason is still on my watch list and I still every couple of months go and check it out. So I guess that is breaking my rule a little bit but in general all the stocks are on my watch list are ones that I am going to be paying attention to and looking for opportunities. Now I also do a watch list and a short list, so every Monday I do spend some time trying to put together a bit of a stock list that I'm hoping to trade that week and we basically build that also on Tuesday in the trading room too and then generally I either scratch those off the list if they're no good or have placed a trade in them by Friday but they really need to produce and there's no point, there's opportunity cost in trading. And time is valuable, if you are trading part-time and you want the worked really hard so you can go do something else so say you're retired, if you want to have the opportunity to go do all those great things and you don't want to be sitting in front of the market. So you want to be able to have a watch list that can really produce for you so definitely ones that I will kind of go to very quickly on my watch list would be something like four spreads, like CMG, Amazon those are fantastic. I mean Amazon and Google right now they’re so high, that's a whole other podcast on their own. How to trade stocks over $1,000 now that we've got a few of them. Anyways I digress. Yeah, What are some tips you have for your watch list? TJ: I think what you've said I think you've covered a lot of what the same thing that I look at. I have my watch list but I also have I would say I probably have 10 to 12 stocks that are my go-to stock every week and I don't see if a stock is working why I need to why I need variety. The only reason I really want to add variety is if that stock, if it doesn't trade the same anymore or if I can't you know if I can't read the stock anymore, if something changes that's when I want to remove the stock but I'm happy trading the same five, six, seven, eight stocks every week. It's not, you know I like variety in my restaurants I like variety in my wine but for stocks I mean if Google and Amazon are making you money every week, why look for something else stick with it till it stops working. I also have different categories on my watch list, obviously I'll have my watch list for credit spreads, I'll have my watch list for selling puts, covered calls, my watch list for buying and selling puts and obviously that all builds together. There's of a lot of kind of stocks that I you know that I have on there I also just kind of keeping an eye on, but traditionally every week I said it's the same 5 to 10 stocks that work, that I like and I have no issue trading the same stock over and over again. The other thing that I really like to do on my watch list is, I really focus on what I'm trading. So for me weekly you have the stocks have a weekly option, generally I'm looking for stocks that are at least a hundred dollars and more the higher the volatility, the higher the beta, the better I'm looking for stocks that that move. I'd like to make a suggestion to somebody about what to do is, is not to get caught up in suggestions that people are making or hey have you heard of this stock you know you should watch it, you can't watch all 3,000 stocks on the NYSC. You really need to break it down into a list a short list that works for you and I know what works for me might not work for somebody else. For example Apple, a lot of people love Apple, for me I kind of tend to steer clear of it. Are there any tips there that Sarah you would? Sarah: okay, I love Apple. So Apple is something that I think if you're a beginner and I used to talk a lot about that about how I don't think apples the stock you want to get into, when you're first starting trading but it's you don't mind price fluctuating a little bit, Apple can be a really great stock to trade. So yeah I like to trade Apple. Okay, so I have to push back here a little bit because I'm a little shocked that you're saying that you only ever trade five to ten stocks and you do the same thing every week. I probably say I think you get into a pattern, so you might do those same five to 10 stocks a couple weeks and you definitely take advantage of that, you cash out of those trades you get in them again but at some point like the trend ends or the highs are hit and then you kind of have to shift gears to something else. So do you really think you only trade out of five to ten stocks? TJ: I think it narrows down the problem to around that, I mean give or take. I'm not necessarily trading them. Yeah, absolutely they come in and out of favor every couple weeks but there's definitely my go-to stocks that I love, that I like, that over the years have just really done well and worked for me. It's like PCLN, I love PCLN, I've done really well with PCLN over the years, made a lot of great trades. Other people just don't want to go near PCLN because it is a big mover, it's a $1,900 stock, it moves a lot but if you can find some key strategies that work for you and that you know pay off, hey why not. Sarah: Yeah you've been doing that PCLN trade quite successfully every Friday forever and that's a pretty good record. Anyhow so that's a good trade but I mean seems like MasterCard, so if you think about it a few years ago, I mean that stock was fantastic to trade spreads and we were selling that all the time and then it split us a lot cheaper now so we've had to change the strategy and so certainly MasterCard would have been something that you would have seen probably both of us trade quite a bit I know that was something we talk about all the time and really over the last couple years it's no longer that, I mean MasterCard is still fantastic to trade directionally in but it's not really something you can get credit in, right? So we does change. TJ: It absolutely does and I think that goes to it as well as your strategies have to evolve as well as your watch list. I think you make a good point, I mean think of some really big stocks MasterCard, Apple, Netflix, those have all split and now our stocks where you really can't get any premium. I mean MasterCard was a $700 stock so with Apple and now they're trading in the hundreds. So you know you have to evolve we can't go back and keep trading if that set up or that scenario doesn't tell you isn't there anymore. Sarah: Okay, so let's then move into like building your watch list. So for me when it's time to start if I want to add a few more stocks to the list and I'm interested in things, the things that I do that I find quite helpful is when I look on tradingview.com just to see what kind of news headlines there are, I really like to use net news headlines I know you guys have heard me talk about that before. I don't care so much about what's in the content to the article but the news headlines on market watch or any kind of website you look for, for your news, if the companies are being mentioned a lot it generally means that I want to write that stock down and I might go take a look at it. I'm never going to trade it today when there's a ton of headlines but it is something that I might add to the watch list or look to trade a week or two out. So that's something kind of how I will add the watch list and then certainly post earnings I find those are times to really refine your watch list and look to see whether there's anything you want to add or take off and that's because at earning so many sauce will have such a large move, like you said the characteristics can change. So again we take it back to that opportunity cost it doesn't really make sense to be reviewing stocks that no longer look like there's something that's going to have a trade setup in. So post earnings can be just a good time to basically look through those stocks and say alright or any of these I want to call off my watch list or you know did anything have a really big move so if you go on like the Nasdaq website or Yahoo whatever you want to use for your earnings the track when those are and you can see some of the really big ones, I mean granted that usually means there's headlines in the media as well that'll say you know whatever snap at all-time lows or whatever that happens to be and then I might just go take a look at that stock too so anytime after earning something kind of big move I will go take a look and see if there's anything I need to add to my watch list. TJ: Yeah that's great. So I guess another question and a question I have for you too is once the stock is on your watch list, you monitor it for a while before you start trading it with real money or if there's a setup will you will you just start trading it right away? Sarah: I would like to say that I always follow my rules and my rules would be that no. I need to wash it for a little bit and get a feel for how the stock moves especially a weekly auction, especially how that moves on Friday but if the stock has a lot of history then sometimes I will place it right now, that is not the norm so I certainly don't want everybody thinking that I just kind of go crazy on whatever stock I see. I do like to get to know stock but I mean today for example in the trading room there was sell jean I mean I haven't looked at sell jean a long time and a member brought it up and I was like, oh yeah I thought I haven't traded that in a long time and we pulled that up today and I definitely want to add that to my watch list because it does look really good right now and looks like some opportunities to trade. So sometimes you can kind of get ideas from different places and also because you've been trading for a long time and something like that is kind of gone off the cycle off the watch lists at one point or another and maybe it's time to bring it back so over the years over the long term, you basically do get to know a lot of the bigger stocks but they'll just be time so they will be on your watch list and times they won't and don't be afraid to take stocks off your list. Just because your buddy might be trading something and doing really well doesn't mean you need to do it, like I'm happy to come out and say look I don't trade Twitter, I know TJ you trade Twitter I don't trade Twitter if this is okay and I'm fine with saying you know there are some big-name stocks and stocks that people are very familiar with that I'm just not going to touch and I'm okay with that do you have any that you don't trade at all? TJ: There's lots that I don't trade at all where do we start with popular ones or one so popular? I would say the biggest category that I stay away from financials, I think with the exception of MasterCard and Visa on occasion so financials and biotechs, I have learned that a lot of surprises in the biotech industry and you can see those 5, 10% moves happen overnight for really no reason, the other industries a lot of a lot of construction industries, mining, for example I'll avoid CAT and I'll also avoid a lot of the oil producers, refiners, drillers, I will however trade USO although, I like USO. We actually have a trade placed in USO right now. So yeah there's a lot that I have that I avoided, it's just been observation over the years that I just, how they move doesn't fit with how I trade. Sarah: Okay, last question for this podcast. What are maybe your top five stocks that you like to trade and why that's sitting on your watch list right now? TJ: On my watch list right now, USO, I like USO, Amazon, PCLN, Google, TSLA was a perennial favorite, it's always up there, it's always doing something, those are kind of my go to and then other than that there's a few others that that kind of creep in every once in a while but those are the main ones that I look at. Sarah: okay, so for me Facebook has been awesome the last few months, so I've been all over Facebook. Apple, just all recently now starting to look really good. Netflix, and then yeah I mean I love Amazon and Google to for spreads those are pretty fantastic. Some stocks that I think, one sock in particular that has really changed characteristics over the last few months and if we talk about something that's on your watch list and you're treating a strategy and then it's shifted is Expedia. So Expedia has really exploded over the last few months, it's gone up in terms of price but also I think there's more people trading Expedia than ever and so before I was looking to trade I was doing credit spreads in those and trying to get into them like Monday and Tuesday because by Wednesday the premium had expired in them but over the last like two months I think it's a better candidate for and to do a whole whack load of more strategies in it I think there's more people trading it, I think it's moving really nicely, trending really well so that one is on my watch list but the way I approached that stock has shifted over the last few months too. It's been a good stock but it's definitely changed so I mean I think watch list are always evolving it's a living document and it's all it's never going to be just right you want to always be tweaking it. So I think that's probably a good tip to leave on. TJ: yeah and if I could I guess leave a tip too is that you can get really scattered in the market because there's so many stocks and I think the traders that end up doing the best at the end of the month, at the end of the year are traders who have found stocks that they can consistently make money in and if you're constantly jumping back and forth from stocks to stock, you really aren't necessarily you know really learning how that stock moves and I think that you can add a lot to your trading by just narrowing your focus and focusing on a couple quality names especially when you first start trading. Sarah: Those are great advice. Alright guys, happy trading. We will see you at the next podcast or of course you can always come see us trade live at www.shecantrade.com. Happy trading.

Sarah: Hi Everybody, Welcome to the SCT podcast, this is episode 29 and in today’s show what we are going to talk about is “Selling Puts”, it’s kind of a strategy that everybody seems to know about or have an understanding of how to do it but it is interesting that when you actually get into trading it, is to especially why you want to trade it, everybody has all sorts of different reasons. So, we are going to explore this strategy in today’s podcast and I have TJ here with me TJ: Hello Sarah: we are each going to talk a little bit about how and why did you, you will get both of our perspectives on it, so I think that should be quite helpful for everybody. So TJ can you start us off by just explaining a little bit about what is “selling a put”? TJ: Selling a put is, your assumption is that the market is going where the stock is currently trading and hope that the stock stays at the same price or moves up by the expiration date of the option, what happens is when you sell the put, you collect the premium and if the stock price expires above the strike price of the Put, you get to keep the entire amount of the premium. Obviously if the stock price pushes down below the strike price of the put then the position begins to lose and you actually have to close out the position by buying back the Put for more than you sold it for, which creates a loss. You can also take assignment of the shares as well, if you take assignment on the short Put, you are actually long shares in your account, so there’s a few strategies there that we can use. Sarah, what market conditions do you like to sell Puts in. Sarah: Okay, Yeah, you have actually got into strategy and just for people to summarize about what it actually is, is essentially what you are doing is trying to collect some premiums or trying to make some money by trading at a level where you don’t think that underlying is actually going to go and that’s essentially what a strategy is. Now, people use it for all sorts of different reasons and there is some, certain times that I think is a good time to trade it and other times that I actually think is a really bad time to trade it. But I think it is really important to mention that sometimes if a strategy sounds too good to be true then you can get load into expecting a strategy like this to work a 100% of the time and it is really important that we get into this discussion about selling puts is that you, I think everyone needs to understand that this should be part of a diversified strategy in the market and if all you are ever doing is looking to just sell puts, I think that you are going to run into trades that aren’t going to work and a problem with the strategy is when it doesn’t work, it really doesn’t work and if you don’t really know how to deal with it at that point, that can really end up hurting an account. So the first thing I guess, I want to mention is, it’s a great strategy, but it can’t be the only strategy because if all you have to do is go out and sell out puts on everything, everything will be fine until it doesn’t work out and I just want to make sure we are making that pretty clear. I think it is a nice way to collect a little bit of premium, I think what’s important though to mention because you're selling puts is it’s a small amount of money that you are taking in and you are basically taking in that amount and you really won’t make it anymore if you are just talking about purely selling a naked put. So that strategy alone when you go and look at the stock, let’s use stocks as an example, you can do it on a bunch of stuff but if you go and think ok, that underlying is going to move higher, so I just want to be able to take advantage of some premium that is sitting below the strike where it is trading and I don't really think it is going to go down there again so I am just going to trade there, then fine and certainly a stock that is trending would be a better stock to trade than naked put on rather than something that is consolidating and moving all over the place, so that will be a good time to trade it, I am assuming you follow the same kind of rule that you are going to be trading in a naked put in a trending stock. TJ: Typically yes, yeah absolutely trading it. I also trade them in a sideways stock too, I think if you can sell naked pots outside of a consolidation range, a lot of the stocks will consolidate for a week or two or even longer and you are able to rip weekly’s, the advantage of Weekly options go in and sell that put a few times, while the stocks consolidating Sarah: Ok yeah, that's true but why would you do a naked put on something that is consolidating instead of doing something that is a little more like an  where at least at that point you are margin requirement is quite less and your risk is less. What would be the advantage of doing a naked put on something that’s moving sideways? TJ: Well typically if a stock is moving sideways, the volatility at that point has decreased, you are not getting as much credit, so the naked put allows you to move a little bit further away from the prices currently trading, giving you and little bit of an extra buffer on one side of the trade so you can go out and you can go, maybe two or three strikes further away than if you were to do iron Condor at that then you need to get closer. Sarah: Yeah that is true and I guess it also has to do with the account size you are trading with too because the reality is some of these naked puts are going to have pretty high margin requirement, Are they not? TJ: That is true, but there is also, if you sort stocks by price as well, for example your radar screen and you watch list, you notice that there is an awful lot of stocks that trade below $100 and if you are trading a stock that’s $18 or $20 or $30, to sell naked puts on it the margin requirement is not that high. Absolutely, I don't sell naked puts on PCL on a $2,000 stock or on Google or on Amazon having to trading up around $1,000 right no. So yeah absolutely the margin requirement is higher. It also has to do with the volatility, so a lot of times we have to keep in perspective to that a lot of these strategies that involve selling put you sell them so and you are literally collecting pennies and for a lot of traders they are barely covering their commissions every time they sell these puts. In short enough 98% of the time, they work out what is that 2 times out of 10 or 2 times out of 20 even were it doesn't work, that ends up eating up all of your profits on those trade, so on the service I think there is a lure of easy money. But we have to look at the price of the stock and the credit you are collecting and lot of the times it’s pennies, it's pennies that you are collecting during that but trade for 3, 4 weeks maybe 5 or 6 weeks with a lot of these strategies. Sarah: Yeah and that is exactly why I don't love selling puts and I would sometimes pick different strategies, you have actually identified it right there, is because once you get in that trade there is no possibility of making more and to me why would you sit in a trade when you are open to risk and you can’t make any more money and all you really have to do is sit there and it is almost like a pile on in the market and say "here I am I really hope you don't notice me, I can't really do anything about it but I am just going to sit here", so to me that kind of bothers me about the strategy, so certainly that’s why, I guess I will stick to trading it when there is something that has a trend because at least then I have that direction to hopefully keep price away from me because I am worried about being that pile on that's huge and everybody is going to see it and I don't really want anyone to see the trade I am in. TJ: Absolutely, everybody thinks that, oh, the put that I have sold is far enough away, price might go through 50 Cent or $1, I will be OK but a lot of times people are trading the strategy around the wrong times. For example, earnings, so they will trade thinking that the stock might move $8, it moves 16,  $8 against you and now you are way outside on this put and I think the other thing as well is that the people that sell it successfully or selling way out of the money and are adjusting there, they are adjusting a 15 Cent credit where it goes down the 12 cents they were adjusting, a very finite adjustments and I think that a lot of traders don't see that there is like the grey area that makes them work and the other thing towards the lure of profits and I think that what happens is that a lot of traders start selling them and the first bunch work out great, and then you say, well, you know what, if I am getting 15 sent successfully well here is 30 or 40 cents and now we are trying to collect 30 or 40 cents or 50 or 60 Cents on trades and it just drops the probability of success and that is going to be on one those trades where you end up getting hurt on the trade and at that point you are kind of bruised and you don't want to trade them again where it is not necessarily the strategy that didn't work but just kind of the greediness or the application of it. Sarah: Yeah and so true to mention that when you are trading, learning textbook of what a strategy is and then actually going out and putting it on in the market can be two very different things because the theory of the strategies sounds fantastic and I think that's why a lot of people say they trade it because it’s kind of easy to get and in terms of options with all of these multi like strategies, it is pretty simple you go and look for an area where you don't think it is going and you just sell the put and hope it doesn't go down there. I mean it is a pretty simple concept in a book, but applying this and making it actually work over a long term in the market isn't as easy and I can't tell you how many times we both have had them. We had emails and discussions with people say that this is the strategy they use, this is the only one they use, this is all they do it and then you just say OK great and then what happens a couple of weeks a couple of months later is we get a horrible email from them later on, it says, Oh Man, probably I should've listened to you because the strategy isn't working for me anymore and I have taken the strategy that worked really well say 10 times, but these last couple of really wiped out all those profits in all those other ones because I was taking such small profit, I don’t know, just a word of caution. I do want to come back to something you said earlier as well which was about trading cheaper stocks, so was curious about what your opinion was. So with cheaper stock, is really selling a naked put kind of the only thing you can really do in cheaper stocks if you want to sell something. TJ: I think it is a good strategy if you want credit. I think it is one of the few credit strategies that you could use on an inexpensive stock and I guess when I am speaking about in expensive stocks, really anything kind of under $50 I think is pretty inexpensive. Obviously other strategies that work are the tried and true but long  puts, long calls debit spreads as well where you are buying but on the credit side I agree with you that it is the selling of the puts that really allows you to a little bit more flexibility. Sarah: Yeah, as I said like it is a good strategy and there's lots of reasons and ways to place it, but it doesn't have to be the only one, so let's talk about getting out of them. So another popular way, obviously everybody just wants to sell the naked put and the trade works that you don’t have to do anything, that’s fantastic. So let's talk a little bit about when you are in the trade and you either made some profit what you do, or you are losing because it has come down to the strike you sold, what do you do, do you want to talk about some of the things you do first or do you want me to go first? TJ: Yeah if I am trading naked puts, really the expiration is either same week, so 2 or 3 days later, trading on a Tuesday or Wednesday for Friday expiration or maybe a Thursday or Friday for the following week, I am typically not adjusting or rolling the trades there is typically not a lot a time to do that, they either work or they don't. I will just end up exiting the trade if it comes down into or close to the strike, obviously depending on, each trade is different when it comes back down into the support, support levels that I previously identified, I am most likely looking to potentially exit trade at that time and just taking a loss and moving on. I think a lot of time if you start adding and changing things, it really changes the dynamic and doesn't necessarily always work out better at the end. And like you said in the previous podcast, most people wish they had the stock option adjustment, the redo button for adjustments that gone down this path. By the time they get to the end of this windy road, half of the time forgotten why they trade in the first place and are losing more money than they realize that they are losing. The other thing that I do frequently do, I mostly trade in selling puts because I want to own the stock, so for me if it pushes through this strike and it still again hasn’t gone through major levels of support, it still looks like a great trade something that I want to own, I will just take an assignment on this stock because it is intended into a covered call strategy or just own the stock if I want to, so for me it is really why do I get into it, most of the time I am showing that because I want to own a stock, I want to take assignment, so I am either getting it for a loss that really breaks below but if it breaks below a little bit I just pick up the stock. Sarah: Yeah, I think that’s a good way to do it and it is a nice backup. It is always nice to have a plan B without having to adjust our role and that’s really what it is, so the same thing, when I am looking to do that, I want to take the trade and a stock that I don't mind owning the stock, sorry, does that make sense, I want to trade the option by selling and then if it doesn't work for me so if we end up having an option that has some value at that point then, I just take the stock instead and then of course you can roll out into all sorts of different trades there and you can keep making money on that. So I think that's something that’s really important and that’s absolutely kind of a great way especially when you are talking about the stock there are 50 dollars and under with that plan in mind to be able to pick up the stock, there is more room for you to deal with in terms of what account size you are trading with. So that is also something really good. So I also just wanted to talk about, I just got out of HD today and I know that by the time you guys hear this, it will have moved on from that trade but I did just sell naked put in HD and I originally have sold it for 60 Cents and then today I got out of it and I made about half, so I think it was about $30 profit that I got out of the trade and that was only really after a couple of days and I want to mention that as well in terms of the positive side of that, so by taking it in something like 60 Cents and I can sell that back at 30 cents that is a really great return and I think it is important that we look at the percentage of return on a trade in order to decide when to get out, when it is working for me. So just because I took 60 cents, it doesn't mean I am going to hold this trade to the very end to make 60 cents. If there is a nice golden opportunity for me to get out of the trade and make $30 in a couple of days to me that makes way more sense to take the trade off and cash out and put the money in my pocket than it is to sit in it for another 2 weeks until the trade expires even if the stock are fine and I didn't really need to get out of it but to me that was just easy money to take off. So do you always hold your naked puts way till the end or do you get out of them quickly for profit I mean? TJ: Typically I am selling them in stocks that I want to own, so the premium I am collecting, it may not at the time be enough to really make sense of selling it so I will hold them till the end. I am collecting 30 cents of premium or 40 cents right after that and I am making 7 or 8 or 12 cents on it that’s probably not enough, that is not going to be enough for me, so I will wait into expiration but absolutely if you are selling if you are able to sell that put for a 80 cents or a dollar and you can make 30 or 40 cents on it in a week or 10 days, yeah I absolutely agree and that is the thing we were talking, we did a course on Cover calls and actually a lot of it is the misconception of  and I think it is the same thing with selling options is that paper profit, so for example your HD, you had 30 cents or 40 cents of potential profit in it, that's what you have today as you mentioned in 10 days who knows, that paper profit may have turned into a loss, so the only way to profit is to absolutely realize the cash out of the trade to turn that paper into paper money, like you said, I completely agree the only real profit is when you sell, so taking that 30 or 40 cents absolutely, like you said 50% profit on the trade is absolutely fantastic and it is much better to take 30 cents on the trade then in 8 days oh well you know at one time I had this paper profit, it is nice to talk about but until it's in your account it is not real. Sarah: Absolutely, unrealized PNL is not the real thing, you want the hard cash you want that profit in your account that's really what we are all after here and that's really what we do I think really well and I think we both can give ourselves a nod here in the trading, I think we do a really great job of cashing it on the trades and profiting really nicely on the trades that we have got. So, I don't know I do think in summary that it is a good strategy I think anyone that's doing it kind of has to have the reason why and again you want to be able to build that case about why that strategy is good to trade v/s another one I think we have outlined a few of them specially in terms of determining the price of the underlying whether or not that's a strategy for you, picking whether or not you like to do it when it is trending market or consolidating. Everyone is going to have a different flavor and a different spin on it but it is the strategy that you and I both use and it can be really great. Of course I do just wanted to throw out that the margin requirement on those are going to be different and some people depending on what kind of accounts they are trading, you might not be able to sell to do that strategy too. So, just to make sure for everybody who is listening today that you go and do that research on it as well. I don't want people getting into something without them really understanding the whole bit. So I hope you guys found this really helpful, I think it was a good discussion, it is actually quite interesting to hear us each explain. I found it very helpful to hear TJ's perspective and how to trade the strategy. And hey, if you want to actually see us trade live in the training room, because we go through everything all the time and was another good week of trades, so I look forward to see you guys next week, please review the podcast and email podcast at shecantrade.com if you have any future ideas that you want to hear us to discuss. Happy trading, everybody.

Sarah: Hi, everybody this is Sarah Potter from the SCT podcast. We are at episode #28 and I have TJ here with me.   TJ: Hi, everyone.   Sarah: So in today’s podcast, we are going to talk specifically about adjusting, and rolling trades. Doing something with trades, if they haven’t really worked out the way you wanted them to. We’re going to talk about how and why you want to that. So first off TJ, I hope you can explain a little bit about what is the difference between using the term adjusting or rolling when it comes to trading?   TJ: Well, I think they’re pretty generic terms and different traders will use them differently. Usually for me, rolling is taking the same trade and moving it out to a different expiry date or a different strike price. Whereas, adjusting is changing the trade a little bit. So adding a leg, adding some stock to the trade, for example, to turn a short call into a covered call. Something like that where you’re changing what you’re doing, changing the intent of the trade.   Sarah: Yeah, you’re so right. I find that in trading, it’s kind of hilarious how everybody takes a different spin and take on different terms, I do find that a little interesting. I agree, so when you’re doing an adjusting and rolling, they are a different way to look at a trade but ultimately, what you’re doing is looking at an existing position that you have open, and trying to make a decision about whether or not you need to add some more risk to it to have a more favorable outcome than you have now. So TJ do you roll trades and when do you decide to do that?   TJ: Typically, I won’t generally roll a trade because most of the trades I’m doing are in weekly options and I’m only in a trade for maybe three days, four days. So we can adjust the trade or roll the trade but there’s not a lot of time to do it. So generally those weekly trades, we’ll just exit for the loss and regroup either back into an option in a few weeks once the chart pattern gets back to where we like it, for a new entry or we just get out for a loss and move on. And I think what we have to remember too and a really good point for any trader, is that no matter what you call it, adjusting or rolling. It’s placing a new trade, it’s adding risk to the trade, you’re adding an additional, potential of loss in hopes of making back what you lost on the first leg of the trade. But it is a new trade and it is adding risk so you really have to ask yourself, is that something you want to do? Is it better to take a small loss and walk away or is it better to potentially take a medium or large size loss with the hopes of winning back that initial loss. So for the short trades, no I don’t. I usually get out and move on. For some of the longer term long puts and calls, covered call position, protect puts, yes. And even if it expires three or four weeks out or longer is much easier and a much better candidate for adjusting or rolling and yes, on a case by case basis I will. I don’t think there’s any point of extending a trade for months or weeks or even a year or so just to break even at the end. I think it’s stressful mentally and stressful on your wallet a lot of times. What do you think about adjusting versus rolling do you do it? What’s your opinion Sarah?   Sarah: Well my opinion at the very beginning is I don’t ever really want to be doing that. That is never my goal in the trades and I think that is something that’s important to point out. There are strategies out there in the market that basically somebody is setting up the trade and their plan is to adjust as they move through that strategy and that’s really not something that we do in our room and I’d say that we’re both the same way that way. When we’re originally setting up our trade and deciding where we think something is going to go, choosing a strategy, the strike and the timeline accordingly, we’re looking to hit the home run. We’re looking to actually hit those targets from the beginning without having to adjust versus there are some strategies out there where when you place the trade your plan within the timeframe that you’re still in the trade is adjust the legs on either side. So we should mention that that is one strategy altogether. I don’t do that. For me if I’m going to adjust or roll a trade, I will do it occasionally. The only real times that I’m really even going to consider it is when I can still look at the underlying. I’m still going to look at a stock for example, and say yes, I still think things are moving in the same direction than I originally thought when I placed the trade. But along the way something has happened but now when I’m towards the end of the trade my assumption of where I think something is moving is still the same from the beginning I’ve just let’s say, ran out of time. So sometimes, if I still think the stock is going to be moving higher but my option is about to expire or time is influencing too much the price of the strike that I’ve purchased, I might have to roll that trade out or adjust it a little bit so that I have more time. So I will do that. I also will keep in mind how the market’s moving. So in fact if I look at my trades over the last couple of weeks, I actually have adjusted and rolled a couple. I think there’s specific links to why I’ve done each of those trades. I mean in the trading room we’ve talked specifically, because I always do that whenever we’re in trades, I always go through each one of the trades in the room and we talk about why we’re managing some, why am I exiting some, why am I taking profits here, and all that kind of things. But if I look at some of those the reason is one through earnings, so sometimes if I want to take advantage of an earnings announcement and let’s say I’m in a long position and the stock hasn’t popped out yet but I think that earnings is going to make that go a bit higher so I roll because I want to be involved a little bit longer. I will shift the trade. Again, making sure though that my assumption continues to be that I think things are going higher and so I’ll take the time and buy a little bit further out in terms of expiry to now take advantage of something like earnings. I will throw those on sometimes. And then also, if you’re in a trade, and let’s say it’s a couple of weeks out and we’re sitting in that trade and we’re waiting, and waiting and it hasn’t popped up yet but think it’s going to and all of a sudden one day there’s something that has happened that moved the market that wasn’t anticipated. So sometimes like some news events or something that has really changed the tone of the market, then I look at that stock I think okay that day alone really changed the move so let’s say it sold off quite a bit but I think it’s coming back quite strong very quickly. And so as long as the underlying assumption is still true, I still think it’s long, I will roll the trade out again. That’s an example of when I would also roll because I think again, it’s just time that I need on the trade as opposed to strategy. Now, if we talk specifically about adjusting TJ would you say you do more adjusting or rolling more often?   TJ: I do more rolling. And I agree with the premises. Usually, when I’m rolling it’s for extra time. So the stock is behaving the way that we wanted it to however the option, the expiry date that we chose is coming up really quickly. Trend is still there we just need to buy ourselves, literally, buy ourselves a little bit more time in the trade and just extend that allowing us to be in a winning trade. We’re not going to extend for time as if the chart pattern looks completely different than when we entered the trade and then a lot of people use rolling just to extend, extend, extend and kind of deny the fact that the trade’s not working but I think a lot of times it’s just like a bandaid you just have to rip it off the faster, the better and move on. Time that's a really good candidate that we've used with success. A number of times in the ETF, USO, it's a really inexpensive ETF trading anywhere right now kind of between a $9.50 and $11. You can pick up options pretty inexpensively on USO and you can look to, if USO makes a move, percentage wise you're looking to probably make 50-100% on that option's trade. So you're looking to turn that 15 cent option into a 30-40 cent option. And so in that case because you're looking for that to double or a little bit more price of the option you can afford to take that a couple of times. You can afford to adjust that trade a couple of times and still know that okay USO is in a really good trend. We just need some more time. So for example in a USO's bottoming out and I'm buying the call it slows down for a little bit and you know they say the $9 or $10 call that we have in the markets move sideway since we got into it. You know if I paid 20 cents for it, and I'm looking to get 40 or 50 cents out of it when I sell it then I can take that 20 cent trade I can take it twice and break even or more or do better on that trade. So I think there's some stocks in ETF's that really lend themselves to it and for me it is inexpensive ETF's or stocks that can move a large percentage in that USO is that one that we've adjusted with quite a bit of success.   Sarah: Yeah, you have done well with that one. So how many times would you roll something. Like at what point is it just too many times?   TJ:  I think for USO I'd probably take two tries at it. Especially now, how the charts are pretty well kind of locked between that 9.50 and 11 dollar range is if you're buying a call at the bottom at 9.50 or you're buying a put up at 11, you're usually still in the same trend. So I'd be buying my call and usually what happens is it's not moving fast as we thought was going to so I'll extend it. If it reverses for example, if I've bought the call at 9.50 and then all of a sudden USO's trading at 8.75 or 8.50 I might take one more shot at it because it's just broken through support and we might get a bounce but that's about it. If the trend is changed, I'm not going to keep reversing my position on it just to kind of hold on the trade.   Sarah: Okay, I agree I usually find two rolls is really the most for me where, okay I just have got it wrong at that point. So after two times it's just I need to move on from the trade or take a sign with the stock maybe. But I have got something wrong here and it's like you said, time to pull off the bandaid. So that kind of brings me to a good question that I think people want to hear about is, when you start rolling or adjusting, whatever you're doing, are you at that point changing the goal of your trade to just break even or are you rolling and adjusting and you're still looking for a reward or profit on the trade?   TJ: Yeah, I think that's a really good point too and that I hadn't really thought of that too. And it's a lot of how I trade and what I talk about is well is that when you are the premise for me when I adjust or roll is to make back the loss. So I'm looking at if I've lost, say 30 cents on a trade, I'm looking to exit the next trade the adjusting trade at around that 30 or just a little bit more. I'm really just trying to break even, cover commissions,  get out of the trade for 0. I'm not really looking on the second trade to go in and double up or triple up on that second trade and I think that's where a lot of people end up losing in adjustments because they see the profit, they've broken even and then they're trying to make money on that second trade and I think a lot of times, they're trying to make too much and it ends up retracing and they end up losing twice. So I don't know, why Sarah do you think that? why in trader's minds and I've asked myself this and I've asked room too, it never really got a great answer is, why don't people think adjusting or rolling is taking a new trade? Why do they talk about it like it's just extending in it has zero risk proposition with only gains to be had?   Sarah: You're so right actually. Sometimes I think probably because it's another term and I think we hear from brokers a lot like, let's just put out on the table that when you're all trading, were trading through brokers and what do brokers want from all of us? They want us to trade. And so sure they want to trade too, they want to make money, we want to protect our profits, we want to limit our risk, and of course everybody's looking for that one cash cow of a trade out there but we also do hear from brokers a lot that say, that explain rolling and adjusting as not necessarily a new trade but giving that first trade a second chance. And I think it actually relates to who we are as people and I just want to throw trading here on one side. Also look at everybody as a trader and the psychology of it all. I think every time any of us place a trade, we want to give things the benefit of the doubt. That it is going to work out. We all want something to be okay. We never want to set up something for failure. And I think sometimes when you're trading, it's important to be very conscious of that because when we start making those assumptions and thinking oh gosh I really hope it works out, this has to work, this has to work. We've really moved away from rational decision making that you need to make in the trade. And I think people just jump to this idea of it's okay, I can adjust. I can roll and it will just hide that and I don't have to deal with that right now. I can just move it out a little bit further. And I have to say that might be good in the short term but in the long term that can really bite you. I don't know if I'm allowed to say bite in the ass but it can really hurt you. And sometimes like you said, taking the band aid off quick or slow either way it's going to hurt. So what's the best way to actually get back on track? And sometimes because we hear from brokers about how it's okay we can hide this. It's okay, we can move on. I think people stop remembering that it actually isn't a new trade. But I like what you said, I think that's actually a good way to counterbalance that. So a solution into thinking that way is when you do start adjusting or rolling, rather than now looking for profit, is you're just really looking to break even to make back some of the loss and to cover commission. And that's another thing too here. We haven't really talked about that and ‘commissions’ can be another good podcast down the road. It's just talking about how conditions influence trading and that's another topic that we really don't hear about very often but it affects us every month and it affects our bottom line because we are all retail traders and we're paying commission. Let's mark that down as an actual theme to do cause I think that would be a good discussion. And I think that leads me into another idea that I wanted to make sure we're talking about, is that when we're adjusting and rolling, there is no undo button and I think that a lot of traders wish that once they start getting into adjusting and rolling that they're, secretly in their minds, they're thinking there's an undo button. And I would totally admit, I have trade right now that I wish there's an undo button on. So here's an example of a trade that's not working now, with you guys we're completely open and honest about trades, so here is one with DG I am in. I bought a call. It was long in position and then DG sold off. So I decided while I'm going to make an adjustment to that trade, I'm going to sell 72's and hold on to my 74 long position. So essentially creating a credit spread. And then lo and behold, what happened today DG shot up through 72. Like oh my god, man, where's my undo button?  I didn't have it. So speaking of adjusting and rolling,  I'm actually working on an example right now in DG and making the decision about what do I want to do moving forward. So let's take the same tips that we just discussed in the podcast and add that into this specific example. So right now when I'm in DG and the price of it is higher than the strike of which I sold. I have to make a decision about where do I think that underline is going. Where do I think that stock DG is going to move as it expires tomorrow. And so right now I'm actually holding the 72. I've been paying a lot of attention to how it's been pricing especially into this afternoon and that's really important when you're trying to decide whether to adjust or roll make sure you take good look at that options chain. Really look at and get a good feel for where is volume coming in, where are people lining up on that options chain, where do they put the stakes in the ground about where they think things are going. Use that information to help you with your trade to decide whether you want to adjust or roll. That's very helpful. And make the decision about okay I don't have an undo button here. I already adjusted the trades so I was long to 74 I added short the 72, what do I need to do now moving into tomorrow? For this specific example, in my mind tomorrow I'm going to evaluate; do I want to look to take an assignment on anything? If something has value, do I want to look for that assignment piece so I might be short in the stock if I keep this short position on or do I just want to get rid of the whole thing and say yeah, this is just a small loss and we'll just get out of it.. Do I want to get rid of just the 72's that I sold? So we're going to go through all that scenarios in the live trade room because I think that's really important. But for all of you in the podcast as well I hope you go through a same process of looking at a position you're in. Something I adjusted. I don't have an undo button. I was wrong about the direction that I thought something was moving and so as I move into tomorrow that is the end for me. I tried doing an adjustment on it. I am not going to go out any further. I confess up to it and say yup I got out of four or five winning positions this week and this one isn't working and that's okay. And I'm not going to continue the risk on this by rolling this out any further. I was wrong, I tried it once, I didn't get it so I have to make a good rational decision to say tomorrow's the end of this trade. Even though I have the ability and the broker's little light will flash and say hey you can do this. I'm not going to do that I have already made that choice one time and it's time to move on to look for other trades that can make me money. Cause I can make more money in the market being focused on the right trade rather than spending too much time on trades that are wrong. I don't know when you look at trades do you ever have a point where you're like I just have to stop here.   TJ: All the time and it's usually you try once, you try twice and then it's time to move on to something with better opportunity and not dwell or focus on the one trade or two trades of eight or two trades of ten that didn't work. Right? We're always focused on that one or two that didn't work when there's seven or eight or nine that have worked really well. But we're still well, like you said, as humans focused on that and I think, I don't know, I'd like to leave this with kind of a thought too and goes along to the last point in it. I think thought it was a really great point was if I'm taking a second. So for example, I have Apple. I take one trade, it doesn't work, I adjust it or roll it, and I'm looking at that second trade. Why does that second trade have to be an Apple? Maybe there's a better opportunity in a different stock in Google. So why do I have to stay in Apple just because I started trading in Apple? Maybe there's a better opportunity and I can make my loss back in a different stock and I think that's what we have to remember that like you said just because there is that rolling button on your brokerage that makes you that one click roll, doesn't mean you need to use it. And you need to really evaluate at the end of the day, is it better to stay in the original stock, and I think there's opportunity there. Or is there more opportunity somewhere else where I can make more money and I think that's kept me on the right side of things for many years.   Sarah: Those are wise words my friend and I'm sure all of you guys listening to this podcast can absolutely relate to this feeling because this is something that we all deal with. And I hope this has been really helpful for you to hear a little bit about how we evaluate trades and what we basically do with them when they're not working. I think it's sometimes really easy cause we are shorter term traders and we have so many profitable trades that sometimes a lot of the learning can come from trades that don’t work and so happy to talk through all of that. So great podcast today I think this was really helpful for everybody. We would love to hear from you though. So one is, send us an email podcast@shecantrade.com if there's a specific theme that you'd like us to talk about moving forward we're happy to take all of those pieces of feedback and then also please post a review. The reviews are what really helped build this podcast up and helped other people benefit from the learning that's here. So please review the podcast. Look forward to seeing you guys all guys next week and happy trading everybody.